The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-04 00:00:00

IitIPERItIL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF 'COMMONS, WEDNIISDAY,. MARCH 3. Ma. WM. DUNDAS . presented a Petition from the Magist rates of the Tpwn of Kilmarnock, praying for leave to bring in a Bill for improving the said Town, by the construction of new streets, a new bridge, a new.gaol, town-hall, &c.—Lea ye granted. Kr. W. DUNDAS moved for, leave to bring in a Bill to enlarge "the p«Avers of an A& for imposing. a duty of zd. Scots, on all Ale and Beer made in Dundee. Mr. tASCELI:ES and Mr. WI LBEILFORCE were added to the Committee on the Booksellers' Petition. The House in a Committee went through the Greenland Whale Fishery Bill, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. Ordered, on the Motion of Mr. VA.NSITTART, that the House should to-morrow resolve itself into a 'Committee on the Bill to extend the Provisions of the Lords' Aa. • • Mr. W. DtrzvnAs moved,• that the Bill to enable the East India Company 'to transfer their servants from Bencoolen to their other Settlements in India, shtlnld be read a second time to-morrow.. Mr. JOHNSTONE said- this was not the s pro_ per time to' enter, into a detettssion u p on the merits of this bill, but it was "o ne to w hi c h he hoped the House .would give the greatest attention, because it was 'one of considerable importance, and would have the effed , 6l vio?aring the. Company's faith with their SerVants .Madras: - . At a future op_ portunity he should deliver his sentithents : more at large upon tibesubjet!t. Mr.. DUNDAS 'he hoped. the Ifouse would always give` - their attention to every bill that was brought before them . ; but he could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman, that this bill would tend to enable the Company to violate their faith with their Servants at Madras. It was true, that as the persons:in the Company's service at Madras rase by seniority, those who were employed at Bencoolen could not lite transferred thither, with out the intervention of an aft of Parliament. But it ;lust be eviJent to every body', that was at all acquainted with the affairs of the East India Com. r any, .thAt this bill was necessary to save the East India Company from the inconvenience of keeping a large and useless establishment at Bencoolen, un_ less indeed it was to be contended, that the meri torious Servants of , the Company at that Settlement should be turned out upon the world without any pro .vision. The Hon. Gentleman might, he thought, have spared his observations upon the bill until a more proper season ; and he hoped, if that Hon. Gentleman did upon a future occasion state his sen titnents upon the bill, he would come provided with mute solid objeaions thatelhose he bad now urged. Mr. J'I4NSITTi4RT contended, that there was no tbundation for the Hon. Gentleman's observa tion, that this Bill would tend to a violation of the East India Company's faith with their Servants at Madras. The Motion was then agreed to_ The Order of the Day for the.second reading of the Indemnity Bill being read, Mr. rANSITTART stated, that this Bill was nearly the same as, Parliament had been accustomed to pass annually, but as there were two new Clauses introduced into it, he thought it right to mention them to the House. Tie first Clause was, to in demnify persons under particular circumstances, who had omitted to take out proper Stamps; or w 14,0 had negleded to take out the proper Stamps for In dentures of Apprenticeship, &c. The objea of the Clause was to give them further time to take out the Stamps, upon paying double the duty. The other Clause .was, to indemnify persons who had negleaed to take out the proper Stamps to enable them to praaise in Courts of Law. By negleding to take out these Licences, they were exposed to penalties, that, in many instances, would be ruin ous, therefore, it was proposed, unde'r certain re gulariors, to allow them further time. The Bill was read a second time, and was or dered to be committed on Friday next. Mr. ALEXAYDE I? brought up the Report of the Committee appointed to take into consideration the Duties on Cinnamon, Cassia-lignea, Hides, &c. The Resolutions were read a first and second time, and a Bill wus ordered - to be brought in thereon. . The Order of the Day having been read for going into a Committee of Supply, THE SECRETARY at WAR moved, " That the several Estimates respeEting the Army, - Ordnance, &c. which had been presented, should lie referred to the said Committee."---Ordered. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. The SECRETARY at W.4R said, that the Esti mates which had been referred to the Committee, and upon which he meant to move certain Resolu tions, were for sixty-one days, and related to the most important part, but not to the whole of the ervice. They were the Estimates for Guards and Garrisons, Fencibles, Barrack s.:rvice, Foreign Corps, &c. They were calculated on the same scare as those presented last year, and the only reason why it had been found necessary, was be. canse some change had taken place in the situation of some of the Corps. He then proceeded to state the number of men employed in the different ser vices, the total number of which, he said, was :3oniething above zoo,ooo men, and the estimated Expence for two months would be 1,270,0951. It did not appear to him necessary that be should at present occupy more of the time of - the Committee. If, however, any Gentleman wished for any ex planation on-any particular point, he was perfettly ready to give it. At present he should content himself with moving his first Resolution, which was, " That a number of Land Forces, including 7575 Invalids, : not exceeding 61,176 men be ens floyes.l its Great Britain, die Islands, of Jersey, C , iernsey, )1-e. froat :Le qLIII to till` 401 May next." • Mr. ELLIOK' said ) he mall not consider the Motion which had been submitted to the House by the Right Hod, Secretary, as a mere matter of , 7course, as he should, do if the Country was now actually engaged in a state of War, and iberefore, taough he _strongly approved of the principle of keeping up, under the present circumstances, a, large force r yet he could not assent to the Motion, without stating the motives Which iofluenced his conduit. It had always been the custom, and 'ex perience had shewn it'to be a wise and well-founded policy, for this Country, when she was regulating;, the degree of force which it was proper for tier to keep on' foot, to pay a due regard to the sittia. tion, the objects and dispositions' of the Continental Powers, and to proportion her preparations to the state of other Nations. It was on this principle, the propriety of which co - uld not be doubted, that he felt the strongest Convidien of the necessity of keeping up that large force which had been .pro posed by, the Right Hon. Gentleman. He was the more confirmed in this opinion, when he took into his consideration that strange. and alarming • succession Of events which had occurred since the signature of the Preliminary Articles of Peace — events which were as alarming to this Country, as they were big - with the most imminent -danger tts the rest of Europe. - Before, however, he proceed. ed further, he would, with the permission of the Committee, anticipate some of the arguments which he foresaw would be used against him, ,and endea vour to take off a kind of proscription which ex. isted against him, because he had the misfortune to 1 differ from the majority, of the House, and from His. Majesty's Ministers, upon the snbjet of the Preliminary Treaty of Peace. He therefore felt it' necessary distindly. to express his sentifnents, and the motives which governed his conduCt. That he bad had the misfortune to differ from the majority of the. House, amid from.. His Majesty's Ministers, with regard to the Preliminaries of Peace, he had no reluaance to confess, but he was not so' lost to a sense of his duty, as a Menjber ofParliament, as nor to know that it became MITI to bow with deference . to the 'judgment of the Houte. While, however, he submitted to the colleaive wisdom of the House,, he must be allowed to state, that his acquiescence • could not alter the principles upon which his opinions were founded,nor do away the donvietion of his mind, and, therefore, he had no hesitation in declaring, that his sentiments with regard to that Treaty remained unaltered, and he sincerely wished that every day's experience since that period had not more and more confirmed him in the opinion which be had ori ginally formed. Tie thought then, and he thought ,now, that when the Noble Lord (Hasviessauxy) put his signature to the Preliminaries of Peace, he put his hand to an instrument fraught with danger and humiliation to this Country, to an instrument from which posterity would date the decline of this Country. Parliament, however, had thought other wise ; ant as he had before stated, he submitted to their judgment. But he hoped he might be per mitted to observe, that although 'the House had given the sanaion of its approbation, to those pre liminary articles, it was not hound to adhere to the opinion it expressed on a former occasion, if all the circumstances upon which that opinion was given had been since that time completely changed. He Was particularly anxious to guard the House against the doctrine, that, by agreeing to the Preliminaries of Peace, they had deprived themselves of the right of animadverting upon circumstances which had no connexion with them. One of the circumstances • to which he alluded was, the extraordinary scene which had lately been played in Italy: Many people, he believed, were induced to approve of the Preliminaries, from a hope that the Govern_ ment of France would in future ad with a degree of moderation, .and endeavour to consolidate the power which she had acquired. They - thought, that al though the Cisalpine Republic was in a considerable degree wider the influence of France, yet that she might by degrees acquire a sort of independence, anal forM a sort of barrier between France and. Italy. —But subsequent events had • completely untie-. ceived those who entertained such hopes, and had shewn them, that they were ignorant of that furious lust of power which actuated the Government of France. If that Government had stopped in her career for a moment, it was-only to take breath, that she might renew it with redoubled vigour. 'We had seen an immense force sail from the ports of France, Spain, and Holland, without, as he be lieved, any communication of the specific object of that expedition- We had seen the Chief Consul of France go to Lyons, anda without any com munication teany of. the Powers Of Europe, de clare that there waa .not one person in all the Sta tes which composed the Cisalpine Republic, fit to be entrusted .with, the Government of that country, and that, therefore, he would take it upon himself. He was, he confess ed, seriously alarmed at :this mode of reasoning which - the Chief Consul had adopted ; because, if we submitted to this incroachment, it was impos sible to say that he might not, at a future period, apply it to this Country, and graciously condescend to take us - under his protedion. The Chief Consul , then returned to Paris, after paring made himself President of the Italian Republic, annexed all that rich Country to France, and converted it into Can tonments for French Troops. Eut this was not all, he had also acquired the whole of the island, of El ba : that Island was, by the Tteaty of Luneville, to be annexed to the Dutchy of Tuscany, andim. mediately after he stipulated for the possesSion of Porto Ferrajo. Mother point to which he' must call the attention of the House, was, that France had, by another, Treat, acquired a very consider able territory on the Banks of the Mississippi,. and had acquired the -means of supplying her. West In dia Islands independent of this Country. He did not mean, now, to ask in what situation we stood, with relation to the President cf the Italian Repub. lie, whether.it was a relation of Peace or 'War, but he could not help entering his protest against that aft of fraud, ambition, and insoletice ; for, upon this subject, he'tould use no otlict lanzuage, But h Aia hore the Nehle Lord would explain to tile Committee, and to the Country, how it happened, that when we were discussing the preliminaries of Peace, we thought we were giving Purto Ferrajo to Tustany, when, in faEt, we were giving it to France; and how it happened that when we were giving back to France her West India Pis sessions, we did not know that she had acquired possessions.in that quarter, which would render her Colonies much More advantageous to her ? He did, however, believe that the Ministers were, at that time, themselves ignorant of these circum stances. If, however, instead of treating with France in the natne.of her Allies, we had treated with those Allies conjointly with her, it was im_ possible but we must haVe known' the relation in which she stood to other Countries. If Ministers had not taken the necessary means to inform them selves upon this subject, they were guilty of negli gence ; if they tlid ask the question, and got .no satisfactory answer, they were .wrong suffering the Country to he treated with such ilidigni!y. He must now allude to another circumstance, which formed a lamentable supplement to' what lie had already stated, which was, that since 'the signing of the Preliminaries, , a very large portion ,of the French, Spanish, and Dutch Navies, h'ad sailed from their Ports. It was trim, we had also sent a large force to the Wrest Indies, but it was difficult to guess what fleet the French thought they could have to contend against, in - which such a. force would be necessary, unless it wai tlgaititit 'the fleet of.this Conntry. It was undoubtedly true, that France as well as every other State, :bad a right to dispose of her force as she pleased ; but we. had an equal rights to make representations upon the subject, and .even to resist an Expeditionifit was dangerous to us. In the year 1773, when there was a - War between the. Russians'and Turks, and when the former . had obtained some considerable advantges id the Mediterranean, France fitted out from Toulon, a Squadron of- observation- on the Russian Fleet. Upon that occasion we -remonstrated with the Court of France, and said, that.. •if they persisted, we would send out a Fleet of observation on the French Fleet, and send out ship for ship with! them ; the consequence of this was, that France re linquished her design. On7 - the present 'occasion we ought to have made a similar representation, and. France would either, have listened' to: it, or : by re_. fusing to do so, would have'shewn:her reahlisposi tion. It might be said, that France had no transports', and was always in the habit of sending 'oat her troops . in Ships of the 'Lire but it she bad no ton- sports, surely she had interest enough with Spain and Holland to procure them ; indeed it would have even been more satisfactory, if we had furnished her with transports ourselves, provided we were convinced of the propriety of the expedition,— These were shortly his reasons for voting for a continuanceof our large establishments, The el le& of this.contiu& on the part , of France was, to make us keep a very large forco,•in the mean time trade was suspended, and we were left in a situation _ _ in which we could neither obtain the advantages of war nor enjoy the blessings of peace. Under time ,circumstances be could not but approve of the plan of keeping up a large force, and he trusted, that Ministers would display vigour and firmness in maintaining the interests and dignity of the country. 'Lord 11,4 TYKES BURY said, that having listened attentively to all the observations.of the Hon. Gentl eman, he could not but observe, that however - proper those observations might' be upon another occalion, they were introduced very much out of tiine.at pre sent, because the Hon. Gentleman had m a de n o objec 7 . _ _ _ don to -the Motion before the Committee. lie was pettedly ready to agree with the Hon. Gentleman, that for all the measures which Ministers had adopt ed since the signing of the Preliminaries,- they were responsible to the House and to .the Country ; aird he hoped the Committee would do him the justice to believe, that when the proper occasion should arrive, the Ministers-would not withhold from the Houk any necessary' information upon every part of the subjea, nor would they shrink from the full est investigation of their conduit, but would be found willing to give the fullest-explanation of the whole of their condua from the beginning to the moment of the discussion. Having said thus - Much; he was convinced that the Committee would con cur with him in thi n ki ng t h at t h e present - was not, the proper moment for him to enter into a discus sion upon the subjeas alluded to by the Hon. Gen tleman, however important they might be, or. what ever weight they might have on the minds of those who conduded the affairs of the Country. He was willing to admit that if the Negotiation for -a De finitive Treaty was protracted for an extraordinary length of time, attended with all the incunveniencics which must necessarily attend a protraded Negotia tion,Parliament had an undoubted right toicquireand expect some explanation. He was ready toradmit, that the inconveniences that attended a protracted Negotiation were very serious, even if it were not protracted to a greater length - than the present one. But if any Gentleman would consider the great va riety of interests that were-to be discussed in the present Negotiation, and the great number of points that must necessarily dome under consideration, fie would not think this Negotiation had continued to an- extraordinary length. The first criterion to judge it by was, to compare it to 'former Negotia dons, and if that criterion was adopted, he did not think any Gentleman would be justified in saying, that this Negotiation had been protracted to ari un usual period. l- the last Negotiation in 1783, when there we;e comparatively but few points to discuss, the Preliminaries were signed in January, and the Definitive Treaty was not signed-till Sep tember. He stated this, to shew that-the period which had elapsed on the present Sccasion; was not such as to warrant a Parliamentary Interference. Majesty's Ministers might surely be sup posed to ft el as great an- anxiety for the ter mination of this Negotiation as any other persons in the Country ; and therefore, he wished to state distinetly; that no means had been wrnitted, nor would be omitted, to bring the Negotiation to a successful termination 'as soon as possible. Hay ing stated thus much, the Committee would not ex., pea 116, he was sure, .to enter into a upon all the points of the Hon. Gentleman's 4- ; it ei being perfectly ready, hebefore stated, O. e mi, into the fullest inves t i ga ti on o f theicondnet 0 00 , nisters when th e pr o p er s e ason arr ived• T he „filis Gentleman had thought proper,' in . the Cours e ;i t !' 'Speed', to make a personal allusion to bin l c o f respea to his having signed the Prelitninar' s iat , Peace. Upon that subjed he could state est sincerity, that whatever the result of that e i v io l might . bd,.he should never regret the share he . ha that transaaion, which he should'always o llt ra c o c was creditable to this Cciuntry,.and gave to gu r li e , , the only chance for a long continuance of Pea d,si Gentlemen might talk of the bad consequene es 4 er ,f Peace, but he begged they would also cons l , - fi j . what might be the bad - consequ&ces of a Sitafi that, before they decided, they would' balance ` ii 'd the gr inconveniences. of both together. The experi lli of-Peace', Was, •at least, as vise as the enerilo-10 of continuing. the War. He. was not aware t there .were any other part of the Hon. Gentlelii speech that called for expl ana ti on , which be COti o ", with any propriety, at present, At th e l, t o l. per opportubity neither he, nor any of his leagues would, he was sure, shrink from the 1 cussion. 'GO . - Mr. CORNWALLIS said, that the Horo A flea= who had spok e n fir st i n ihiS:debate, 11 " - larged considerably upon the s i tuat i on both of ' ,or , Country and of Fra nce; b ut m or e part i cu l a rly it that expedition which h a d sa il e d_ from the dif fer ; p, ports of France. Wi t h r egar d t o . t h at exnew l i: i re there were no *reasons before the House to them to suppose that it had not a fair objed, ll ` ° ::'s perhaps it migiit . not be proper for His 'Ministers Co state every thing withi n t heir 10°. tllc ledge upon .the subjea ; but even supposing tha - ,e c li expedition had sailed wi t h a h ost il e i ntent ion, g" 1 00 he really did not b e li eve , st ill t h ere was not a least ground for apprehension, because we 191 . c 1i farce more than sufficient to resist any attack they might be inclined to make, and our fleets bs'° A in that case be enabled to meet. them .in the ° T e if sea, instead,of bein g employed:for years in"hers, ", counting the French fl e e t :in t h e h a rb our o f B r ' , If, therefore, he was-a friend to -the continuan ce t i the War, which he really was not; the sailitl r i, that fleet would be to him a matter . r i t her of faCtion than r e gr et ; the r e Was no ground to s'r ot pose, that Mini s ters had not adOpted, and wer e ,' • L li now adOpting ev e ry 'measure preeantion prudence and the situation of.4lFairs could sugg e -, 1 5 ; and, therefore, far one, •he saw 'no .ground for to him, a l l t ai d m id u n th appear the tion. Gentleman had exl- 4. e 5 ., L 1 ,1 occurred since the signing. of the Pretonioary Pot, ticleS of Peace, that could justify us in ei ' le f taming these suspicions of the good faith the Government Of Fraoce Which the +lon. G r e r , tleman seemed to entertain.;. if, however, o °'''i a tunattly, we should fail in our eriaaVours to oho o f Peace, he hoped there were but little gr outidso apprehension-a our success .in the renewal Of contest. Nobody could Idok at the charader to that any thing 1,1,, Noble Earl who presided at the Board of Achon, without feeling the same confidence, that his iu i ; ment in dire4ing'..the Naval Force th' CU kill i t g e would be as conspicuous, as his- skill and had bee n Wh en affively engaged. 4.had bee," ',`' that the pr esent N egoi i at i on h a d been protoc'ef se soch a length, as to-afford' grounds for t he m', r yas rious alarm ; but he be gge d- to o b ser v e, 'that it 00 , now but a few months since the different plcr'if i• tertiaries had met to settle.the terms of the tive Treaty,. In the Treaty of-Ufrecht, the t , employed in Negotiation was considerably It had been said, that the Mercantile Intere-s. this Country were extremely anxious that th„r finitive Treaty should be settled, but i t wool° 1. 0 be denied that the Merchants of Great Britaiotv,c, o f fully as anxio us at ' t h e ' t i m e o f th e 'Treat) UtrechL The same - observations applied with e i r e, force to the Treaty of Aix la Chapelle ;-he ti'i j if fore could not sit down without again expressitlor decided opinion, that there was Ito gro und for e) alarm which bad been expressed; 'bec a use we h', l o proper force, either t o g i ve eff e ct t o theeg,oti' lri ; .N or, if it should unfortunately be necessar y, to '; on the contest with vigour. t he Mr.,WINDHAM said, he highly applauded condua of-his Hon. Friends in calling the a t te '' oo 3 of the House to this import ant su bj e ct. 1 .1e 4 0 ' weighed it much in, his mind; wh e r e so me CO'l" s i, had taken :place between the duty- which ha c ( 111 dered that owed to the Country, and 5 - it , ` f 1. ; not ,to be instrumental disclosing that wh- c ,t,is might be- thought necessary ;o conceal. 11 subje't was made the object of debate, w ithout ‘ l , , YI P specific Motion - relative to it, His Majesty's b ar, nisters might take what part i n it t h e y pleased' if a motion had been brought forward expressly t o , lating to it, then they might have been induco l e a declare themselves, and,somethi ng m i g h t have l ! a lig disclosed which , upon' its getiing abroad, 51/ f t e, highly injure the Negotiation,at Amiens, and 1 1 " 0 05 rially impede its progress. These coniitleo ti o tv restrained him and his Hon. F r ie n d s , but 0 0 : 0 0 1 could look at the subject without feeling it to r ic t o' important duty to call the attention of the Hous e at it. If the' Preliminary T reat y, as was state ( „ o , the time of its being made, e m b race d ev ery s i l i j lation upon the 'subject, then the time etoP l° s eg• since that period must be time lost ; but t lic'e 3 " , v olt of thedehly were not knoW n ; i t m igh t be Oa 05) able. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr.CoßNwl .l 'f r e , had said, that nothing had happened since the age(, liminary Treaty to alter the state of it, ao a i ja tl , tion which - was, he thought, so o b v i ous ly t llt° l ,ing ed, as scarcely .to need r e petiti on . Wh a t I o°' die happened, when so much had happened as:,to 5 e „ t o il Preliminary Treaty enti r ely as id e , if either jay chose to take adVantage of it ; when (Treat an' portant changes had taken place,. to which ttle ot aef liminary Treaty did not apply, and when `;rag es events bad happened, calcul a ted to produce e' 0 , 0 5 6 which must determine the nature and effed 01- l i l;e Preliminary Articles. He wished now to c a so i,le attention of the House to, the exp os i t ion of the Lord, of the three. things necessary to the it'ld.tV of a TJelity, namely, the time, the ECM* -2