The Sun. — London, England, 1807-02-05 00:00:00

were present when this matter was spoken of on a firmer occasion, and that he should inform those who were absent on that occasion, of the causes of this extraordinary length of notice. He had con sidered the production of the Paper as so much a matter of coure, that he had at first given but a very short notice Of the Motion for it ; but on his coming down to the Hone to make that Motion, the Noble Lord opposite (lsinwick) had very candidly commu nicated to him his intention to oppose it. He could conceive no possible ground for opposition, except it might he that the publicity already given to the Paper in the . Gazette was sufficient to render every one fully acquainted with its contents; but he was prepared to answer that by representing the proprie ty of having on the table of the House every Paper which it was proposed to make the subject of a par• • liatuentary proceeding. He learned, however, that this was not the ground on which the Noble Lord meant to withhold the Paper. The Noble Lord in faet acknowledged that any parliamentary proceed ing would be most regularly instituted after the Pa per should have been laid on the table. But the Noble Lord could not conceive that any measure could be, founded by him upon the- Paper which the Noble Lord should not hold it his duty to op pose. The Noble Lord, therefore, would not cows tenaece any such possible Motion, even so far as to allow the Paper to be placed in a situation in which it could be founded upon it. Under these circumstances he was unwilling to bring the Houie prematurely to a discussion involving so many ex traordinary considerations, and charged with doc trineS and principles so entirely new. The abilities of the Noble Lord dpposite, the eloquence with Which he always enforced his sentiments, and the in fluence which justly and naturally belonged to the sta tion, rendered it unwise to oppose him without having first made the preparation which was essential to the discussion which 'was to result from agitating so im portant a question under such extraordinary circum stances. But it would be obvious to every one who was acquainted with the principles of Parliament ary proceeding, and more strikingly so to those who were acquainted with the principles maintained by the Noble Lord and his friends while they sat on the side of the House from whiclibe now addressed • the chair, what a novel and extraordinary, what an unparliamentary, and unconstitutional doctrine it was, that no motion. for Papers should be offered . to the House unless, it should, at the seine time, be Shewn, that no proceeding was to be founded on those . Papers but such as Governnent 'would coun tenance. He lipped the' House would not counte nance a precedent as 'different from its former prac tice as the Noble Lord's doarine was from the tenets he and his friends. had formerly maintained. He had hoped that the Noble Lord, when he should have time to retie& upon these matters, would have produced the Papers without waiting to have them moved for : this proceeding was the more naturally M be expeCted, 'as the Paper related to a measure of Government which was already, complete / acted upon, and made public ; and as the Noble Lord ac kmowledged that the discussion, the propriety of which. he did nor attempt to deny, would most pro -perly take place alter the produ6tion of the Paper— *was it to be endured that the only persons who Wert not to be allowed to see the Paper, were those who were called upon - particularly to discuss them ? The Representatives of the People, who were to ap prove or to disapprove what was done in the in terests of their constituents, were refused the means by, which to dired their judgment This was a pro • ceeding altogether as perfeCtly unprecedented as it was obviously unprincipled, and if the House would countenance it, it would abandon its best controul over the' Government, its best means of protecting Itsown rights and the interests of its constituents.- -It was not objeded that the document required was 'of that voluminous nature to take much time for its preparation, or to give much trouble in the offices : it was not objected that idle, curiosity was the mo tive for calling for the Paper without the intention of founding any proceeding upon -it : it was not ob jeCted that any mischief would „arise to the State from the publication of the Paper, for it was as pub lic as it could be already. The subject was ticknow s ledged to be of a magnitude to require the attention of Parliament, and the produdion of the Paper was resisted merely upon the ground that no motion was to be founded on it to which Government was dis posed to. give its approbation. He was not aware that his intended Motion was of such a nature that the House could not entertain 'it, and he was at a loss to conceive by what arguments th e . 'Noble Lord could prove the measures taken by his Majesty's Government to be so perfe6tly satistadory that the House could find nothing in them. to disapprove.-- It may be so, thowever, but was no inquiry to pre cede the the resolution of approbation, and was the whole question to be decided upon the authority of his Majesty's Ministers, and upon their opinion in their own favour ? The argument for refusing the Paper was a complete , circle. The Paper was not to be produced, because sufficient grounds were not laid for a discussion upon it : and no discussion could take place till the Piper was produced. The want of grounds for discussion were to preclude the House from having the Paper; and the want of the Paper was to preclude discussion.. Was it not possible that some improvements may, be suggested by Parlia ment upon the measures adopted by Ministers. But even if no poSsible improvement could be made,it was desirable that the Paper should be produced. It was desirable for the credit of Ministers; it was desirable for the credit of the measure itself. If it was a wise measure, and of a nature to bear sifting ; if it was prudently calculated to attain its objet}, and that ob jed was great and politic ; let that be seen, and the country and the world would be better satisfied with the measure. But if the measure bore another charac- ter, that indeed was • a ground for throwing impedi ments in the way of discussion. If th er e was a con- sciousness of deficiency on the file,: of the provisions contained in the measure, and if that deficiency had been followed by imperfed execution, that was cer- _ . tainly a very iutell:gible cause for having investiga tion. The ostensible grounds on which the pro duetion of the Paper was to be resisted were ob -viously not the real grounds of the opposition. If the resistance of the Noble Lord arose merely from the fear of giving some - Countenance to the Motion that it was proposed , - to tbund on the Paper, that would be easily 'avoided, by say ing that he consented to its being- laid on .the table, because it was public, but at the same this to' disclaim all countenance of any raotioa that may he founded upon it. There would have been in this no commitment of his Majesty's Mi nisters, no violation of the privileges of,the House. If the Noble Lord had insinuated any serious appre hensions of public evil from laying'the Paper on t table;. it would have become his duty to examine into the grounds of these apprehensions ; and with the facility which he was sure the Noble Lord would have afforded him, he was sure be would be enabled to ascertain whether any teal danger existed. The resistance now made came in a shape calculated to realise and confirm any mis chief that could possibly flow from the discussion. It was impossible to discover any sound reason for refusing the Papers. But it may perhaps be the ob jea of the Noble Lord to try bow far his eloquence and his influence would prevail in despite of reason.; how far the House would be disposed blindly to sub mit its sense and judgment to his opinion. It may be his objet to shew those around him, and who had followed him from this side of the House to that, how far he still expe&ed them to follow him.' It wa§ as much as if the Noble Lord said to them, you have heard how I pressed for Papers when we were on the other side of the House; now, in order to shew you the versatility of my powers, you shall see with what firmness I will refuse Papers for the. pro duaion of which there are the strongest grounds. Circumstances are changed—the course we have hitherto followed is no longer to be pursued, and I call upon you to spew your faith in me, and to maintain me in the refusal of the Papers in de fiance of all the principles and all the arguments you have formerly heard from me. There is no one argutrient to warrant you in such a proceed ing, but you will follow still the same standard, and that is enough to settle every doubt and to satisfy every scruple. There was another poiut.which it is still more material 'for the House to look to'; for such gross abuse of authority could not be long-lived. The House may be persuaded to sacrifice its rights in the present instance, but - there would be a. latent principle in the dereliction which must be fatal to those who forced it ;' 'for when a precedent was once established for withholding Papers where Go vernment did not approve of the proceedings to be founded upon them, Negotiation Papers may be withheld, and the House may be allowed no means but surmise by which to judge of their con tents.. If any apprehension of unwise proceedings should be entertained, and Papers should be called for, for the purpose of investigation, the Papers would be refused, because there, were no grounds, and the grounds could not be shewn till after the produEtion of the Papers. He hoped, therefore, that the House would refled before it would sanaion a precedent pregnant with such mischievous resalts.— The Noble Lord opposite had said on a fbrmer night, that no taunt should drive him from pursuing -What he held to be his duty on the side of the House on which he sat, however inconsistent with his con du& on 'the other side. On the occasion to which he alluded, the motion for printing the Army Estimates, the Noble Lord had to contend against a special prece dent. hi the -present instance, he had to contend against universal usage, for there was not a single instance before of a Paper of this kind being re fused. But it was not with their former principles, but with their present professions, that he 'wished to compare the condua of the Hon. Gentlemen oppo site: how would their condud upon the present oc. casion correspond with the desire they professed of giving all possible information, and facilitating every investigation with respea to their condU6l. The Noble Lord opposite (Lord H.'Petty) bad stated as the rule of his condu&, and that of his colleague s ,' the principle of the Roman Philosopher, who wish. ed to live in a house encompassed with glass win dows, so that all his adions may be seen froM eve r y side. It may now be said to the Noble Philosopher, there you are in your glass-house, but you are so much afraid of the glass being broken, that we must not approach near enough to' look at you—(ii loud laugh).—His motive for coming forward with this motion was, the importance of the subjea, and a persuasion that the measures which had been adopt ed were neither so well contrived, nor so well ap j-lied, as would be found desirable upon bettercon sideration. He would recite the Order of Council, and then endeavour to point out how far it was de ficient. The Order, after , reciting the measures adopted by the enemy against our trade, then pro ceeded to state the measures adopted by us against the enemy in consequence. It stated a right to re taliate to the full amount, in which he perfealy co incided; and whatever hesitation persons particularly conversant with this subjea may have in asserting or a6ting upon a full right of retaliation, he was sure the more the point . was examined, the more clear it would be that we had such a right. If the violation that had been offered to us were of an accidental nature, it might perhaps be too severe to involve neutrals in the mischiefs of a retaliation to the full amount. But where the enemy had directly grounded a principle subversive of all the rights of na tions, it would be the maddest thing in the world if another belligerent abstained from adopting the same principle as the means of defending itself and annoy ing its antagonist. France professed not to be bound by what other nations acknowledged to be their com mon law. Perhaps the French Government thought, that if they professed to be subje& to the laws of nations, other nations would also be subject to them, and there would be a restraint which they did not wish for in this community of code ; for it they violated the law, other nations would also violate it, and this would be inconvenient to them ; they therefore struck out a new line. The Imperial De- cree charged England with departing from the rights of nations in confiscating ships and cargoes, the pro- . perty not of the State, but individuals, and in ex, tending the right of blockade to ports not a&ually blockaded, so as to prevent the intercourse of na tions The Decree then asserts the right ofretaliatioil, and declares it tobea law of the empire, that till the law of blockade shall be made the same on sea as it is on land, and till private property shall cease to be considered by England as matter of legal prize, that is, till we renounce the known right and pra6tice of war, the British Isles should be held in a state of blockade, and all intercourse with them should be prohibited. It was desirable that the measures adopt ed by our Government should hot only be approved by the House, but that thQ reasons upon which those measures were founded should be satisfaetory. It was next to be considered, the right being establish- ed, whether retaliation was wise and politis, and in what degree it ought to be tarried hito execution. The Order of Council not only asserted the - right, but went on to state that this was a proper time to exercise it. Our right of retaliation wascommensa rate to the enemy's offence. The question was, to 'what extent that right should be exercised ? With a view to determine whether the measures adopted were calculated to answer their purpose, It was necessary to know what that purpose was. He thought - the grand obje& should be, to look for the best means of counteracting the designs of the enemy, and mak ing him feel the evils of his own injustice. Under these circumstances, he ventured to say, that the part of the enemy's trade upon which his Majesty's Government had chosen to exercise his Majesty's right of retaliation, • was that upon which it could not operate so as to produce any one advantage to us, If any, inconvenience fell upon our trade in consequence of the enemy's decree, the first obje& should be to remove that inconvenience, atid turn it back upon the enemy. Stopping the trade from one port to another could be no benefit to our trade— The elasticity of commerce itself would prevent any lasting mischief to our trade from the restrictions of the . enerisy, but it might be produ&ive of much in convenience. Our merchandize would come into foreign markets at a dearer rate, from the high insurance tq be paid against risk of capture and confiscation: Those articles which were already nearly excluded from foreign markets by their high price, .would be excluded . altegether by this Let us look now whether the objeil of making the enemy feel the mischief of his own injustice is well enforced. The best mode of doing this was pitting a stop to the enemy's trade ; and in this resped the Order of Council was deficient. Was the coasting trade of the enemy that which it was Most material for us to hinder ? Their communication from port to• port was carried •on in swan vessels, which ran close in shore under cover of the batteries. We could thus give it little molestation, and in the worst events the matters which were carried by, it could be conveyed by land. The wine of Bourdeaux could be conveyed by laud to supply. the fleet at Brest. If there was - any branch of trade in which we could p revent t h e enemy fr om being supplied with an useful commodity, that was the branch to which our restrielon should have applied. It was not for him to suggest the fittest branch in this view —it was enough if he shewed the unfitness of that which had-been seleded. - But he thought the best mode of getting rid of the inconvenience cast upon our trade, and -of injuring the enemy, was to inter rupt the intercourse of his colonies, and render it so perilous and expensive as to give our own commodi ties better opportunities of introdu&ion and coalpe tition. • This trade was the most easily interrupted, and its interruption would lead to embarrassment and distress. It was desirable not to interrupt the accustomed channels in which Neutrals traded,. and, the colonial trade was that in wjaich they could be best attended to. He would abstain from the con sideration of particular laws and treaties ; but the colonial trade was certainly that in which, Neutrals had the least right ; and while he declaimed every idea of glancing at the provisions of the -Ameri can Treaty, he could not help remarking, that the right of retaliation for such measures as may be 'adopted by the enemy, reserved in that Treaty, was of no use, when it was not a&ed upon. It was therefore desirable that the Order should be reviewed, and more effedive measures be adopted. Perhaps Ministers were fearful of offend ing Neutrals, and forbore to a& to the full extent till they should have had communications with them.— But they had a&ed without such communications, and what was to he lamented was, that they had Aged with inefficiency. Without notification to Neutrals we may prohibit their ships from proceed ing to the enemy's ports, but not seize them. He trusted Government had not acted so weakly from fear; it was a motive of adion which they can not avow. But when they negotiated with America, with the Non-importation Mt hanging over their heads; when they continued negotiating after that insulting At was carried into execution ; and when they concluded a Treaty under such circumstances, whatever they profess, he feared they may have been guilty of improper concessions. There was no rea son to apprehend that Neutrals would blame us for any measures the Enemy might force us to adopt with resped to them ; though it was to be hoped they would feel a just hostility against the Ene my who are the primary cause of the evil, and who force us to retaliate on them -in a manner that involves some injury to dur friends.—lf the measures he alluded to were more efficacious, • why were they not adopted ? But 'they were not the only measures he would have recommended. There were measures of dire& retaliation, which. wonld have the most speedy e ff e d i n b r i ng ing the Enemy to his senses. The Enemy has ordered, though his want of power renders the threat but an empty boast, that no vessels of English destination or Eng lish connexions shall be permitted to pass freely on the seas. We may say nothing shall enter France which shall not first enter here: We may carry this restridion into execution in the whole or in park.—We may not prohibit the colonial com merce altogether, but we may make the enemy's colonial supplies enter our ports, and pay a duty towards the expences of the war, and thus relieve ourselves by charging him. lithe Paper was produced he should move a Resolution that the provisions con tained in it were insufficient. He should then leave it to his Majesty's Ministers to re-consider the measure with the authority of the House tbr their direEtion, and to adopt measures more adequate. This being all that he meant ultimately to move, if he had failed, as he well might, in. sa tisfying the House that the measures he suggested were better than those that had been adopted, he' trusted he had at least impressed every Gentleman with a strong sense that the subje& was fit to be en tertained. If Ministers had no better reason than they had alledged for withholding the Paper, it ought to be produced, in order that it may be properly understood, and that more energy may be added if more should be found necessary._ He should there- fore move, That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying, that he would be graciously pleased to give directions that there be bid beibre the House a Copy of the Order o f Council, of itie . - 7th of January, relative to the Trade of Neutrals from one Enemy's Port to another. The ADYOGATE-GENERAL (Sir JOUN Nr cHoLL) was anxious to give his opinion thus early in' the debate, in, order to keep it as much as possible distinct from the extraueoui matter which mrintr were disposed to involve in the cittestion. He would forbear to follow his Learned Friend through topics which were foreign to the subject, and many of .11ea 1 of a mere personal nature, which would be best an t ; swered by the persons concer ne d ; an d o th ers of st,_ a delicate descripti o n, th a t, cons i stent l y w ith till public service, they could not now be discussedj t Rsngth. He was sure that his Learned Friend Was actuated by public duty in respect to whatever bg brought forward to the consideration of the House; but when he proposed to discuss a measure of ware entrusted to the discretion of MinisterS, subje6t ore tainly to the revision of Parliament ; and in this in', stance a measure untried, and liable to be affeaeci in its execution by the disclosure' ofthe views With which it had been adopted, he was sure it Would be. felt on reflection, that the Hon. Gentlemanehad aced imprudently. He was far from wishing to cast at/ personal refleaion on his Hon. Friend,whose friers ship he well knew how to value. The House Wo, generally friendly to Motions for the production .w Papers. But the Paper in question contained oide ls to the Commanders of his Majesty'ssCruizers ; and did his Hon. Friend know of any instance in wilier' an instruction of war was called for by Parliament , when it teas just issued by GOvernment A case should be made out to show that there wa s just foundation for a subsequent proceeding before such a Paper could be produced. It was true the Paper was in cotfee-houses, and other house's wlict Newspapers were taken in, and it was diffused arnong the whole of our Fleets and Cruizers ; but it was not for the pu r pose o f k ee pi ng i t f rom t h e k noWledge , the House that the produCtion of it was resisted; when it w as a l r e a d y perfectly known to every over and may be discussed this night in the fullest extent, if his Hon. Friend 'thought proper. But when it was proposed to interfere with an executive measure , for the purpose of a Parliamentary proceeding, strong ground indeed ought to be sheWn for theinterference• 'He would now proceed to the Paper itself, and the efficacy of it ; and with this'etiew he should consider it as actually before the House, with the measure proposed to be adopted upon it. It was not denied that the French Decree was subversive of the usalr of war, of the rights of all independent Nations , but principally of Neutrals. That Decree proceeded upon false and groundless assertion. It assumed , forsooth, that there was an impropriety in rnaki4 prize of property not belonging to the State, thoueit for centuries back commercial property had b:e° made prize, with a view to weaken the resource of the Enethy, and .to strengthen oue's (wet. ;There was another falsehood in the _Decree -, tba assertion that we declared Ports to be in a state 0 ' blockade where there was no blockading. force. 1 116 Decree proceeds then to declare the British Isle- 5 in a state of blockade, and to interdi& all con): merce with them. His Honourable Friend agreed that all this was grosSly violating of the -Lad of Nations. . His Frie6d agreed also in the 0 1 ; right of retaliation ; and Neutral nations could not deny our right of retaliation, if they sub' mitted to what the Enemy contrived for tb ° purpose Of distressing us. The question this night was, how far this right ought to be carried into execution. Were we to press gild crush unoffending merchants by the actual execution of severities to tile utmost extent of the enemy's menace ? -• R e believe/ the House would not go with his Hon. Friend so fit, but would rather prefer mild and mocieratemeasure s at first, if likely to be efficacioue. It became a greit arid magnanimous nation to be always moderate ia the application of its power ; and he was sure the House would approve of the relu&ance with which his Majesty's Ministers yielded t o t h e necess sitf 'of adopting measures 'of retaliation upon the one" my which would involve some distress on Neu" ,trals. It was not denied that some steps in reta liation were necessary, and the question was, far the ships that had been tak en werea d equa te' his Hon. Friend said, we ought to have gone til e ' length of interdiaing all commerce with France' and suggested some measures which the House was to compare with those of Ministers now carrying lot° execution. It was necessary to allow a fair trial what Ministers had adopted. A total prohibition° all commerce in the produce of the Enemy would b ° attended with the most distressing consequences tc : the few Powers that remained neutral, an d perh3P with some mischief to ourselves. Sp a i n, I taly, feel. land, ,the North of Germany, all the Coast from th e Elbe to the Gulph of Venice, •tvith the ex cept i o n °f Portugal, was under the dominion of France, and all Powers that covered this extent of country We re leagued with her in the Wa r; o h t h e other side we re Russia, Prussia, and Sweden, co-operating with 0 5 ' The only Powers that were neutral, were Austri / ' which had only the single port of Trieste; Deninarkk which hadno means of supplyi ng it s co l on i es, o r ° disposing of its colonial produce, if we carried a g e c i • neral interdict into execution ; Portd ga l, which evoal feel the same di sa bili t i es ; an d America, with regPeet f to which such an interdict would be the means °f infinite di s tr ess . H e cou ld di scover that a j ealous y ° E• America was at the bottom of •all these com plainl But was it t o b e conce i ve d t h at we also would 11„c! suffer by ad o pti ng an d en f orc i ng a total interd43" For if we shut the door upon neutral commerce, we must also shut it, in a great degree, upon ° own. If, the commerce of neutrals with the Co r e j e, thient was stopped, we must b e tota ll y d e barr' from all access to the.cont;nental market: If.ye e ' trals are deprived o f th e cont i nenta l market ''6 °r , their colonial produ c e, th ey w ill not h av e t' ta means of purchasing fr om us . A mer i ca exports to the continental Nati ons , b u t i mports chiefly Jr ° , Britain. The commerce of neutrals with our e2, e mks" was also necessary to us in ano th er v i e w. n e wanted some of the produce o f th e enem i es ' co°' l .. try for our manufattures ; the, silks of Dal'', , lee instance, and the wools of Spai n . W e wan t e d a lit of the wines and brandies of France to cheer a,' comfort us. We wanted th e see d s o f H o lland' ..., e , France had no maritime p ower t o en f orce her , cree ; but if her intimidation deterred •Neu tr from coming to us, it would be then t i mee notep ed recur to extreme severity. Th e res t r iai o n of l' 4 o . commerce between one Port of th e EnemY ,• another -was the measure of present meta 00 . which it was Conceived would fall heaviest ,the Enemy, with the least po ss ibl e annoyance to t te - ,Neutrals. , Much trade was car r i e d on - f ro m M o j a . Port of the Enenny under neutral names. thew der 0. trade of the Enemy was, i n tad, carried-on on to' t system of, neutralization. Thi s t ra d e f ro m Ni tra is; Port . of the Enemy, was a trade in which Ne i u t bel ' were. not concerned in time of Peace. o,oo'