The Sun. — London, England, 1802-04-15 00:00:00

IMPERI4I, PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS. WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14. ins various Bills before the House were forwarded in their respesitive stages. Among these were the New Loan, and the Assessed Taxes Bills, which were reada third time and passed. And the Grenada Merchants' Loan, and other important Bills, passed through Committees of the whoie House, and were ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. A Petition being duly presented, and favourably received by their Lordships, a Bill was accordingly brought in to dis solve the Marriage between Edward Lane, Esq. with Catha rine his now, Wife, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time, at the expiration of the interval re— quired by the Orders of the House, to take place bet Ween those stages of Divorce Bills. Lord REDESDALE called the attention of the House to the Propositions he had advanced on a former evening, relative to the return of Lord CHARLEVIL LE, as being eleeted a Representative Peer of Ireland in 'the room of the late Lord Ross- MORE. On the nature of the case, as well.as of the relevant Provisions of the Aft of Union, and the, Aft incorporated therewith for the regulation of these matters, the Noble and,Learned Lord entered into a detailed view, for the information of their Lordships, and observed, that doubts had arisen in the minds of some Peers whether these Provisions were duly complied with, which principally seemed to turn on the circumstance, that the Return was signed by the Deputy Clerk.of the Crown in Ireland, where as it was held by some that it was necessary the Re turn should be signed by the Clerk 'of the Crown himself. However, from an attentive perusal, and a review of the whole Aft, and also with a" reference to the praflice in this Country where such Docu ments were signed by the Deputy Clerk of the Crown, it appeared to him that the Return in ques tion was made in stria conformity to the Regula tions of the AEt, and therefOre that the Committee of Privileges had in this case been unnecessarily re ferred to. He would, under that impresiion, move, that the Order relative to the Committee of Privi leges be discharged ; and which Motion, he said, it was his intention to follow up with another, namely, that to declare that Lord CHARLEVILLE is duly returned. The observations of Lord REDESDALE gave rise to a long, desultory, and in some points of view, rather irregular conversation, in which Lords THURLOW, ALVANLEY, AUCKLAND, REDES DALE, Viscounts LIMERICK and CARLETON, the Earl of RostAN, and Marquis SLIGO, took a part. Of this, from its particular nature and manner of proceeding, as well as great part of it being .mat ter of reference and explanation, we are precluded from attempting any thing like a regulbr Report ; but are confined to adverting to a few prominent points which fell from some of their Lordships, ierd THURLOW recapitulated several of the observations he had made upon the points in tries — Lion on former occasions ; and though he seemed to retain many of his doubts, yet appeared to enter tain no objeftion to the Return, as made in the in stance befbre the House. l'iscownt LIMERICK contended, that by every fair construetion of the Afts in question, and in which indeed it was even literally set forth, that the signature of the Deputy Clerk of the Crown in veil - Cases was amply sufficient ; and this point, he observed, was still more strongly illustrated by the consideration of the direftions of the A6t, in cases where a parity of Votes occurred in favour of any two or more Peers. Lords THURLO* and ROSLIN seemed of opinion that the Provisions of the Aft were by no means sufficiently clear, and that the'su"njeft required far ther investigation, in order that a fried and settled rule might be framed for the regulation of such Matters in future. , Lord ALVANLEY appeared in a great degree to coincide in what had fallen, from the last mentioned Peers. Viscount CARLETON seemed to deprecate any farther, discussion of the subjett; at least for the present.—The regulations in. question appeared td him perfeclly clear and decisive ; as to the particular case before the House, their Lordships would re )llea that there was no complaint, nor represents_ tion made against the return, there was therefore no necessity for a discussion. - He thought the precise arid simple question, then before the House was, whether or not the Return signed by the Deputy Clerk of the Crown, was, under the provisions of the Ads in question, an adequate return. Lord REDESDALE in the course of his expla nations urged the point, that the return of the Clerk of the Crown or hi's Deputy did not constitute the Eleaion, it was merely a certificate of the proceed.. ing ; and expressed his opinion, that in the present instance there was no necessity for the question. Viscount LIMERICK in the course of his expla- nation took occasion to speak of the Deputy Clerk ' •of the Crown in Ireland, (Mr. BotritcHT Ea) as an ,able and diligent Officer. The result of this part of the proceedings was, as we could collet, that Lord REDESDALE'S Mo tions, for discharging the Order- relative to the Committee of Privileges, and. declaring Lord CHARLEVILLE dully .elected, were put and car ritd. Their Lordships then proceeded, pursuant to die Order of the Day, to the consideration of the Peti tion of BARRY Earl of FARNHAM, &c. praying that his claims be admitted. This subject gave rise to a conversation of a Similar description with the foregoing, and between the above mentioned Peers.—Much of this, as was the case, on the evening when the Petitions were ori_ ginally present&l by the Marquis of St, Ito, turned Upon the point of satisfactory or adequate evidence of the fads set forth in the Petition—as those of the de cease of the Peer aliedged to be dead—and the Peti tioner was the eldest son, or otherwise, the next legal heir to the _Peerage,. &c. and in this view, one of the questions considered by their Lordships was, whether the statement of one or more Ni)ble Peers, ,in their places, should be held sufficient; or, whether the fads should be proved by evidence of a differ ent description, given in the usual way at the Bar, The major part of their Lordships who delivered their Opinions .upon this point seemed to think that the ;noe of taking it upon the statement of Noble Lords in their places, would not only be in general •st,...:icient, but would be the more satisfat`tory, and a saving of great trouble, Arc. to the petitioning Peers. And with respect to the particular cases before the House, it was urged, particularly by the Earl of Ros LIN, that ahe decision which their Lordships might come to, would not, as had been throst;n out in the course of the conversation,' operate as a • final decision, but merely as prima facie evidence that those given by such Peers were good votes, and did not go .to preclude other persons who might be concerned, from asserting their rights in a legal manner. It was also urged by some of their Lordships in the course of the evening, that something in the na ture of a legislative provision, or explanatory aCt, wits necessary, -in order to clear up the ,doubts in question, and ‘to establish a fixed and regular mode for settling these matters in futtire ; and it was ob served, we believe by Lord ALVANLEY, that a proceeding of the kind was adopted on the occasion of the Union with Scotland, in which Aft, points similar to those in discussion; were referred for sub sequent legislative provision. Viscount C ARLETON rose to deprecate any attempt to alter or new-model the'ACt of Union with Ireland, on the ground of the serious alarm which such a measure would create in that part of the United Kingdoin. Let the Aft of Union be construed, observed his Ldrdship, as well as it could, . and Irishmen would be satisfied ; but an alteration in that great and important Aft may produce contrary emotions, the more especially when they considered that if the altera tion was made, at so early a period after the passing of the' A6l, in a matter of mere regulation ; and they may be inclined to consider themselves as at a loss to know what to depend on with respect to other points.-;--With regard to the partictilar point in discussion, he thought the general praftice here would apply to the case of Irish Peers, as in this Country, the Patent of a Peer succeeding to his title, was not even produced ; and the entry on the Journals, was merely to the effeEl that - such a Peer had taken the oaths prescribed, and his seat. Lord AUCKLAND observed, that. the subjeft in discussion, was not only one of considerable import ance, but of great delicacy, and should not be hastily decided. He would therefore propose, that the further discussion of the subjeft be adjourned until some con venient period after the- holidays ; indeed this was necessary, as the subjeft enhanced a variety of minute details; with respeft to what had been said relative to the mode in which a Peer should give his evidence in such cases—he was clearly of opinion that it should be upon oath, and in this he was borne out by some of the greatest authoritiesof the law—by whom it was laid down, tht in cases be tween party and parry, a Peer should be upon his oath—,and seemed to apply to them the general maxim of ‘f In judicio non creditur nisi juratis." The Noble Lord particularly referred to COKE and BLACKSTO:I7E. With reaped to what had been said of the propriety of an explanatory Aft, or a Legislative provision to establish a regular mode for concluding such matters in future, - the Noble Lord seemed to conceive such a measure necessary, and in this view he referred to a part of the in corporated Aft, which professed to regulate the Eleftion of the Spiritual Lords, in cases where any of them should be Temporal Peers, and which, he said, involved_ a notorious blunder, and the 'en - deavour to reClify which he could by no means think could give umbrage to. their fc4qvv-subjefts in Ireland. The Marquis of SLIGO expressed his concurrence in a great part of what had fallen from the Noble Lord, and seemed to think, that some explanatory Provisions were, as the Akin question now stood, highly ne cessary ; and with regard to the consequences of which, he seemed to entertain no serious apprehen sions. No man could he a firmer friend to the great measure of Union than himself; and none but those who were the Enemies of both CountrieS could wish to break it. Since the completion of the measure, he had observed nothing but growing good-will re ciprocally between both Countries ; they -were in in one, and would stand'or fall together. Lord AUCKLAND and the Noble Marquis se verally spoke in explanation. The farther consideration of the Pe r titions w as then, as we could collect, postponed agreeably to Lord AUCKLAND'S suggestion. The Earl of ROSLIM, after making some obser vations as to the necessity of further investigating the subjed, acquainted their Lordships with his in tention of moving (we believe to-morrow) for the appointment of a Committee for that purpose, and to consider the best made of proceeding in such cases, &c. _ _ The Apprentices' Regulation Bill, and one Private Bill were brought up from the Commons by Mr. Boom F, and severally read a first time. An attested copy of the proceedings of the Ecclesiastical Courts, with respeft to Low 's Divorce, was pre sented by the proper Officer, and laid upon the Table.—After which their Lordships adjourned till to-morrow, HOUSE OF COMMONS. YfgRNESDAY, APRIL LORD AR P E N moved for a new Writ for the Borough of Northampton, in the room of the Ho nourable Spencer Perceval, who has been appoint ed to the Office of Attorney General. Mr. DENT gave notice of his intention after the Recess, to move for leave to bring in a Bill for pre venting the praaice of Bull-baiting. A Message from the Loids ',via read, informing the House of their Lordships' assent to the Loan Bill, the Window and House Tax Bill, the Corn Tiade Bill,. and a numbeT of Private Bills. On the Order of the Day being read for the third reading of the Apprentices Bill 4 Sir ROBERT PEEL made some observations upon the impropriety of limiting the number of Apprentices in the. Cotton Manufaaory. He ob served, that the most injurious efreas 11A resulted to the Woollen Trade, from the adoption of similar measures. Sir ROBERT BUXTON -said, • that the defi ciency in the Woollen Trade did not arise fron•t he restrikions which allowed Weavers to havi! only two Apprentices, but from the influence of the CottOn Manufaaory. He thought the re , tuidion proper, as it prevented too great - a miMbes 4if row. ren being sent to a trade from which they could not afterwards earn a livelihood, which he ,under-. stood to be the case frequently in the Cotton Ma-- nufaElureS of Scotland. The Bill was then read a third time and passed. The House is to go into a Committee of the whole House on the Coroner's Bill on Wednesday the sth of May. The Bill for regulating the Militia, was read a second time ; and after a few words from Sit WI [- LIAM YOUNG, the SECRETARY at WAR, Mr. HENNIKER MAJOR, and Sir WILLIAM ELFORD, the Bill was ordered to be committed to.morrow, The Bill for the better regulation of the Health and Morals of Apprentices and others, Was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-mor- The Report of the Committee relative to the in terference'of Peers in the Elettion of Members of Parliament, was put off 611 Tuesday se'nnight. The Import and Export Duty- Bill was read a se cond time. General GASCOY .observed, that the situa tion of our commerce at the conclusion of the, late war, is not such as as to justify an additional Duty on Imports. He adverted particularly to the ex emption of Ireland from the Duty, which he con tended to be an unfair partiality. Mr. VANVITART said, he should take OCCa casion, in a future stage-of . the Bill, to enter, more fully into its several regulations;_ and he trusted, that upon a fuller discussion, it would appear that no unfair immunity had been granted to Ireland, considering the different circumstances of the two Countries. Sir APBERT PEEL observed, that this was a question . of great importance to the Country. He had been a friend to the Union, and hoped that by it, the two Countri;s would have been placed on an equal footing, and be recolkded a clause to this very effet. The defence of Ireland had put the Country to a serious expence, and it was therefore just that. Ireland should bear a part of the burden. It had been urged as a reason for the exemption, that the Convoy Duty did not extend to Ireland ; but this Duty he looked upon as a War Tax, and hoped that at the - Peace it would have been entirely done away, and the two Countries then placed on an equal fobting. He hoped the House would see the bad effeds of a Duty in the one Country, and an Exemption which would ad as an encouragement in another. He looked upon it as a partial measure, and therefore, declared his entire disapprobation of it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded the Hon. Baronet, that the proper place for considering this proposition was in the Commit.. tee. The subjeft was worthy of the most atten. rive discussion, and it should obtain that. But it was not just to demand that Great Britain and Ire land should be plaeed on the same footing, without taking into consideration their respedive circum stances. He would defer farther observations on this subjea till the Bill was committed. Dr. LAWRENCE said, that our new system of commerce demanded the most serious investigation, and it was proper to weigh minutely every thing conneaed with it. With regard to Ireland, he did nor see that the Union nececg:iriiy inferred an ecina. lity of taxation. He himself had urged the danger of the burdens being equalized as an objeaion to the Union. It was proper indeed, that no partial advantage should be allowed to the trade of either Country, but it was necessary also to consider the 'circumstances 'of each. With regard to the Tax itself, he thought it very objeaionable in our pre sent circumstances. The present Definitive Treaty had not been attended with the usual effeas of Defi nitive Treaties, nor had any commercial specula. tions been, as usual, formed at its conclusion. The Hon. Gentleman then went into a detail of several articles, particularly cotton, on which he thought the new Duty laid an improper burden. Lord HAWKESBU Rl' said, that His Majesty's Ministers were anxious to render the Tax as little objectionable as possible. With regard to Ireland, he approved as much as any man of the principle of putting both Countries on a footing ; but difference of wealth, and many other circumstances rendered it impossible to follow up this principle without doing injustice to Ireland. With regard to the Honourable Gentleman's - statements concerning • our commercial affairs, he thought them by no means well founded ; nor could he allow the propriety of re newing our commercial treaties with foreign nations at present. Much had been said of the advantages to be derived from commercial treaties : for his own part, he was inclined to doubt them. They may indeed be useful to prevent political disputes, and to enable the Manufaaurer to resort to fixed rules. But when he looked into our commercial connec tions, he foUnd those had been as profitable and unembarrassed .where no commercial treaties bad taken place ; and therefore it would he impolitic to sacrifice any important commercial interest to attain them. The rivalry which it was supposed would injure our commercial interests, could net result from the Peace, as that rivalry did not arise from the Nations with whom we had been at war, but those with whom we had been in amity. No rivalry, except in the silk manufadure, had ever been experienced from France ; and it was not to be supposed, that that country, in its resent si • tuation, could pretend to rival 44. The only manu faatire in which we could be undersold' was the linen manufaaured in the countries of Germany, which had been friendly to us. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by repeating, with regafd to Ireland, that if it could be proved that lreland Would receive no detrimoit, and that Great Britain would be benefited by equal4ing the duties to both countries, he was sure the wisdom of the House would adopt the •measure ; but if otherwise, that citcumstance must regulate their decision. 114 r. 0' HARA observed, that though the Par liaments were united, the Exchequers of the two 'countries were still separate, and therefore the taxes shonld be so. The Bill was ordered to be committed on Friday se'nnight. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he could not go into the subject of the Consolidated Fund for the redgaion of the National Debt, with that minuteness he intended, when he gave the notice of bringing the subjed forward this day,-.- 3 4 A He was in this.situation on account of the calcula tions not being ready ; they were indeade. out, but they were in a state which required to be indeed made /D and some alteration, and therefore n ot fit laid before the House at present. He hoped the House would not objed to the course li Come should mittee Oil p ro pose, which was, that of going in t: , a revision, . the subjed, and in which he should ope n the Reso lutions in a general way. He should then propose that they might be printed, under an understanding to that effed, because no Order could r egularly be . made .until after the Resolutions were voted, fllot he could not ask the Committee to vote them, 'before he bad laid before them the calculations on which' they were founded. By this course the Members of the HoUse would have the Resolution and' the Calculations at Once, and would have an opportunity of considering them together, and. the whole should be agaiti submitted to a Committee of the whole House. He should therefore move, " That the SPEAKER do now leave .the The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House went into a Committee on the sublet of t h e Con solidated' Fund for the redemption of the Natieno Debt. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said, that as the course of proceeding which he had tak en the liberty of recommending to the Hoose, to Cow him to be likely to meet the approbation of the mittee, he need do little more than to move t he four Resolutions which he held in his !mod. hut, however, however, he could not forbear saving a very . le words, by way of observation, on the princip.le °, 3 desire which they were founded. He must then to be understood, that no man in that House, o r this Country, could feel the importance of the the appeared i 5 ligation we were under to preserve inviolate system adopted for the . Redemption of the Natir l a Debt, which was adopted i n t h e y ear 17 86. °, l wl `,,. the measures . that were propo s ed to , an d adopte° 6 c " Parliament, there was not o ne mor e 'entitled t o f e , admiration of .the present age, or which wo la r i l la t ceive more of the gratitude of posterity, tha n 0 1 system which was adopted for the ReduCti n° he the National Debt. The me r i t o f t h e author of t of plan, followed up as it had been, by the fionne% c Parliament, during a peri o d o f unpara ll e led Pr e- r, e ' t and difficulty, and by which t hi s s y st em 'v as e - 0 2 a up without interruption or 'relaxation, w ere a n , he un w d e e r r e a t n o y ob p s re t r t t e tC ri t ce tl w le h o a p te e v ra er ti , on °{ hesho t all praise ; and he was t h ere f ore j ust ifi e d in bat m th e a a t su i re the not only not be supported, but should meet 'ng unanimous reprobatio n o f t h e H ouse . The leach lc feature of the measure he had to submit, wa s ' t t i t c of a Consolidation of the Publi c D e bt, and °r ineans to he adopted for the p urpose o f its reau —A' r o d There were two objects in view, by the plan he ,; il t to propose : First, to afford Me ans for the pr e o f Expenditure, and then to accelerate the oper", tl° 3 9 the plan for the ReduCtion of the Debt. -1 , f , 1 el impossible to look at the Interest of the C 31"" our 'Debt, without feeling a desire to discharli e r he with as little pressure upon the Public as tnig'''" Ic consistent with the l erformance of that att r Y . i t 3/ was - impossible to look at the amount of t he eaP. et y of that debt, without f ee li ng the ' u tmost a r ''‘ i c e, and solicitude, and ail earnest desire to ac and lerate - the-period of i ts extina.ioll. • The a e rma i •Of the Taxes 'annually- to be raised an d r` i3 i of nent, was now ab out 30 , 000 , 000 1. The Car To our Debt• was now about 4.88,000,00 01- „ i rei Committee would recoiled that two n' ea. " n or were adopted for the purpose o f reduci n g The Debt, the one in 1786, the other in 1 7 92 ',{,1first was for the purpose of re d uc i ng the c orfr the operation of a Fu n d Of O ne Manion, at ous t pound interest, to a g i ven t i me , w hen the 2.- 0 for of it should be Four Milli ons . The other w ' of providing for the disch arge o f one per da rl e ,l to every sum, thec.eafter to be b o r ro wed 3 86) the capital. By the first, name ly, thin o f he' had it was provided that at a given period, 2 s of said, when the am o u nt o f t h e F un d in the "%Ler the Commissioners sh ou ld b e 4,000,000 1 . th i e i, ` u os 3l est of that 4,000,0001. should be at the " e - n iula' of Parliament, and. the plan of the former a cc- re oent lion should cease. His proposition wa , ' f e ° I , i- t o g o that pause in the operation taking place. , u u- rea t to on with that Fund, together with the in te ' ver of compound interest. With respea to attach to it, with all the advantages and P ° s ure of 1792, the Operation of that Fund also for bor.- charge of one per Cent, of the whole s unl rr yon rowed since that period, he proposed to "'stow with the other Fund, for the purpose of the te st t ake Lion of the whole Debt. If Gentlemen w °Ll t heY the trouble of referring to the Accoun ts 'F oo d:o would see that by the operation of these tw° (ye l l er the probability was, that the whole Debt a lto s Two would be paid off in Forty-three year s ( al of it' months. That of itself would, upon the 1- ' 1 " w ith induce the Committee to receive the P l j3 an t i r t his readiness, and examine it with alacritY• ces sitY was not all, for the plan obviated the ne 00 0:. the ni l which would otherwiSe arise of providing 90° ,;o0 Taxes immediately, to providc for the 0 1)'" leave 3 the one per Cent. Fund of 1792, and a iss, 000 sum little short of t,g00,0001.---Ow " fe f s hoLd the interest when the 5 and the 4 per Cen f ' to taic e be paid off, a measure, he believed, likelYrovjoing place at no very remote period. He Wa S U . a a sta r ' to enter into the whole subjed now, but he it te e ed, 'he believed, enough to induce the CV .e d the to entertain the plan. However, he recapiteut!:le De bt sums by which it appeared the extindion o . r _ l _ l 3te d,a s c would be accomplished in the period he had s_ i ' len Lb, would at large, and in detail, a ppear, "' hie , ati ° calculations came to be laid upon the l'a Moncl a r e which, he hoped, would be ready early °? he Hous e , se'nnight, when lie should tnove, that should resolve itself into a Commit tee Of th t he House on this matter. He should n ow tea jie ealf solutions, which he intended to suo btit•o_; as king begged permission to present them now,)o°Oftoecti:c for the sanuion of the Committee to a') . w ho tt',, that he should reserve for a future petic),'" the 1 146 e ther- h at were fodnded, should be considered togetllecl, t d f oot . 0 0 then read the four Resolutions, an j Resolutions, and the Calculations upon will an d t he the Chairman do report pfogres9, 1 , aoo ni g h e ' ea+ to sit again; which was do House ordered that on Monday' se'nfl i g ' the solve itself into the said Committee.] ..t • he ger ° MP, ALEXANDER: brougat up ne a,ecorcli.ng ) I i nit It