The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1806-04-18 00:00:00

4 1 1 , !^!! Lb - De . 1 ,1 4: 7 ihe'r "r - * flfne • Ogee' : by t t hi s tc eof • rovisa, Ilar T.' radic'• wrollo , r of 4- - he s' l ' he, eig % 4 P tl. gen . i m 4.• be. then • f ii +/i were serious. They did not conceive it to be a light or tr i v i a l point, and w!po they said •• generally... they meant, he was well satisfied. " solely."—He hopA, therefore, the House of Commons would covisi ler Whether the proviso is necessary ; and if ;hey should be of opinion that it is so, he, for one, would much rather the Bill should no: pass at all. Nit.. JERVIS said, that when he came to the House that day, he was rather under an impression on his mind, that the Bill required some modifica tion i but from the arguments he had heard, and particularly those which had just been delivered with se much I orre and eloquence, by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he had entirely altered his opi nion; and upon more mlnut.ly lo >king into the worts . I the proviso. he thought it contained no more ,than the opinion of the majority. of the Judges ; is such he should certainly vote against it. The MISTER of the ROLLS said a few wori:s in explanation. Sir. V. GIBBS (the late Seilieitor-General) re quested the indulgence of the House, till he made a few observations which occured to him, on the . puta. It appeared to him, that the question put ,h• .iiv, Learned Friend (the Master of the Rolls), as s , i witness at law, in the situation of a purchaser ..: .. 4 valuable consideration, without notice, stood au, :—Suppose I am a purchaser of an estate, for whieli I pay a valuable consideration to a man who is an illegitimate son, but that is not known to me— an ejeament is afterwards brought, and I am called on to prove the illegitimacy ; in that case, my Learned Friend says, I should nqt be compelled to answer. In a Court of Equity, certainly not; nor, per haps, under all tire circumstance:, in a Court of Law. But this proviso, he contended, was not wanted in the present instance; he thought the arguments of the Right Honourable Secretary of State were ex tremely forcible, and they had completely convinced him that the Bill would he far better without it. Nothing could be more clear to him, than that the Judges of the Common Law should not be obliged to refer for rules to a Court of Equity, for, as had been most ably enforced, the Common Law existed long before a Court of Equity was ever known or heard of. The Court of Equity was originally in stituted for the purpose of softening the rigour and severity of the Common Law, the Courts of which had always been governed by their own rules.— The Court of Equity had unquestionably taken rules from tire Courts of Common Law, becausr it was iniiispensibly necessary to them, but it had al ways been the reverse in the Courts of Common Law, the Judges of which had uniformly been governed by their own rules. Another reason which induced him to disapprove of the proviso, was, that the Rill declares what the opinions of the et ijority of the Judges is, and they, in deliverieg tlet,e opinions, have not, in any one instance, referred to the rules of equity. Ile thought that, from the expression " generally speaking," the -ledges did not lay down the rule universally ; but, as the House were now about to declare the law, they should be extremely careful not to do so, contrary to the opinion of the majority of the Judges. Five of those Judges had , declared generally, and till they knew what that or i nion was, he should objet to the proviso. lie re served to himself a right of giving his opinion on the Bill, on the third reading. The question was then put, and the proviso negatived. ENLIstMENT EOR A TERM OT YEARS. Mr. YORKE rose to make the Motion of which lie gave notice yesterday, relative to the opinions of General Officers on the measure of enlisting men for a term of years. He began by saying, that .he had understood, that no objeeion would be made to his Motion, and he flattered himself it would he so on this ground, that Hs Majesty's Ministers would favour the House with every degree of information in their power, on a point in which the public were so deeply interested. and which, in its consequences, might ultimarely, perhaps, affee the most import ant interests, and even the exigence of the country. The Right Hem.' Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wind ham), had, on the opening of his plan for the fu ture Military Defence of the Country, informed them, that this material change in our army was intended to take place, and he hoped the House of Commons would never he induced to agree to a measnre which was to erre so material a charge, without first being in possession of the opinions which experienced General Officers of our own army entertained on so important a sobjee. He was - of opinion, that a great deal of information was necessary oa this head ; whereas none had been g;ven, Whit.had been stated by the Right Hollowell!, Gentlemanly' general terms, as having been the praeice . of several states in Europe, which had large armies constantly a-foot. • He believed, however, that it was sot generally the c.rse in Europe, and that where it was so, such Crwernments knew ertrensely 'wen • how many men were liable to be discharged in any one" year. He had seen in the possession of the Quarter-Master-General of the Army a very de tailed account how the Austrian Government felt themselves, and how they proceeded with regard so their army, and he hoped the Right Iloourable Gentleman would consult that before he proceeded flasher towards carrying his rurpeced measure into aanal praeice. He underrood there existed in some of the offices, instances of Gentlemen who have applied to General Officers for their opinions on this inthjeEt, and that such opintOns bad been obtained. He did not know what the balance of these opinions might be; there were, he believed, nom for, and sethets against the measure; but be that as it m;ght, it was unquestionably wiry material for the House to know, whether the majority of opinions were for or 'against it ; because, it was highly ne cessary to know why we should adopt a novelty of this nature, so very different from all former prac tice; so contrary to the name of our colonial ser •ice in particular, an.; which was, in his opiniou, pregnant with the greatest danger to the service, and to the keeping up the army in that state, which the present critical situation most imperiously de mended. He had heard, that one of the olskeirms to his Motif); was, that it would be givies up pri vate and c..nfi.d , oltial correspondence; but he thought that wes nn .bi.jeaioti its faa, for, by the same rule, hlinisterr might Wijett to produce the correspond ence of Ambassa.lor. and others employed in official itnetions, and thus dept ire the (loose of every kind of imprrtant intorrnation, under the plea of its being private or confidential intimation. He hoped the Muse would not countenance a nvatnre of this immense importance, without being convinced, that it is adopted on the opinions, not of young men, though they may possess great genius And hut of General Ol cers. of long praetical know ledge. and great experience, such as Lord Cathcart. General Prescot, and others of the same charader and standing in the army, whose opinions would be entitled to the utmost confidence of the House, and of the country. He was convinced the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to him, who well knew the grievous responsibility under which he aaed, would not tura a deaf ear to reasons of such importance ; and therefore he should not at present trouble the House further, than to move— That there be laid before the House, Copies of all such Military ovinions , in otri:Oi4, as had boon received hr His htiwirers, from linieral Officers, on the *object of the onlistmeut of Men into the Army, for a term of Years. On the question being put— General WA I.l'o LE said, there was one answer, which was quite conclusive, in his opinion, against the present motion, which was, that this pretlice of enlisting men for limited service had been long in use in the British army, and had been exercised in the Amari.tan was, and at various other periods, without the smallest injury either to the discipline or to the recruiting of the army ; and as it was not the novelty described by the Hon. Gent. nor liable to those dangers which he had described, he should certainly ohjeel to the motion. Mr. Secretary W tNpli AM expressed his snrprise that the Hon. Gentleman who made this motion, , should not,have anticipated objeflions to it. There are Official Papers, which, from their particuler na ture, Ministers must reuse, and in giving his opinion on the present question, he had no hesitation to say,- that the opinions were so 'nicely balanced, it might perhaps he rather injurionethan otherwise to make them public. They amounted in number to four teen ; six of whom were in favour of the Hon. Gen tleman's opinion, seven against it, and one doubt ful, inclining in some points to one side, and in some to the other ; but admitting and allowing several advantages to result from the measure. So much for the enumeration of the numbers ; but if argued, it would then he to ask lust, what would be the ef lea on the service and on the discipline ; most of them were of opinion, it would not affelt the dis cipline: the greater part say it will give facility to recruiting, and provide also a better description of men, but don't think it prudent to do it in time of war ; they differed as to points, though they agreed on the whole ; like the two Judges, one of whom said, I agree with brother A, but not for the reasons brother A adduces in favour of his argument, but for the reasons which brother B adduces against it. It asked the reason of objening to the motion, his answer was, Ministers did not think it proper. It certainly was not pleasant to publish opinions con fidentially given to the Commander in Chief. He though; it indelicate ; and it might be of prejudice, by preventing such communications in future. The House could not call for them, without putting them into comparison with each other ; and it could therefore do no good ; but by stewing how nearly they were balanced, might do harm. The Hon. Gentleman, said Mr. Windham, calls for the opinion of General Officers, and then expresses a lope, that those of young men will not be attended to. I don't know whether he has any particular person in view, to whom he means to allude ; bat surely Le cann't suppose, that the (Tinton of any one man would he talt.eti as authority; or of four, or five. or six. One Hon. General, under the gal lery, has declared, that he has changed his opinion oa the subjeel, another may have done the same, and that is a good reason fur nut disclosing their opinions. As to the matter of Foreign service, that will be a stib . :eft of discussion at a future period, when the business came regularly before the House, and then it might be fully and fairly argued. At present he should object to the Motion. Mr. YORKE, in explanation, said, he did not mean at preseta to advert to foreign service. General TARLE FON said, that front all the consideration he ha{ given the subje6l, It- thought the plan impradficable ; and, theretare, the opinion of General Officers ought to be taken on it, and their names and authority given to the House. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said, there were six on the one side, and seven on the other. He wished to know the opinion of the six, whether such a measure were proper in time of War, and particu larly whether it were so at present ? The Right lion. Gentleman allowed we are in a state of danger; he wished to know the manner in which those opinions have been called for, and whether they are expressive of that sense at danger t The Right Hon. Gent. had said, he could not produce the opinions, because they were confidential; let those General Officers then be called, and examined at the Bar of the House, as to their opinions on this point. He denied that such a dischoute would prevent the future communication between General Officers and the Commander-in- Chief, unless it were argued, that all emulation in the Army was extind or vanished. It mid been in sinuated, that these opinions had been asked by one person, but he knew the contrary to be the fa& ; and as ao good reason had been given for with holding those opinions, he should vote for the Motion. Mr. FOX said, he had but a single observation to make, which was, that Gentlemen argued as if those opinions had been asked for by His Majesty's present Ministers; whereas, the fan is, they were given to the Commander-in-Chief, during the Ad ministration of the late Mr. Pitt, and none of His Majesty's present Ministers had any hand in fram ing the questions, or any thing whatever to do with thorn. • Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that as he had an opportunity of perusing these papers himself, he should be the last person who would require them to be laid before the House, if he had nn other mo tive than his own information on the subjea. Thete were, however, very few beside himself, who had had that opportunity, and he thought it would be by no means proper to refuse it n o w. There was, he allowed, some delicacy in producing papers which were written , and given in confidentially ; and he was aware that there were two or three which might no: be drawn up in a proper form. These considerations, however, were not, in his' mind, a sufficient reason against the produc t' of the Parrs ; and, if Gentlemen could not get over them, he thought it would not be detog story to the C. coral Officers to send back their opiniess to them, and ropere them to make out a deiiberate and formal opinion, S:lrh as could be submitted to Parliament What, aOove all, was, in lOs opinion, the weightiest motive was, that he conceived the ptodueriitin of these opinions was of the last import ance in the discussion of the great question which was shortly to he before the House. They were the authorities they had to look to, and without them they must remain in total darkness. The Noble Lord then entered into an explanation of the dif ferent brandies ef the Military force of the country, which these opinions applied to, and then said. that he was aware the: it was not hitherto the custo:n of Parliament to interfere with the Crown in the ma nagement of the army ; but, as the Right Ho nourable Gent, meant to consult the Legislature on this fundamental change in the mode of raising the army, which indeed he thought required the most enurageous mind in a Minister, in the present state of affairs, to advise his Majesty to, he thought it was unfair that the House should be called upon to de cide, without having the same source from whence to derive their judgment, as the Ministers. It was a new duty imposed on them, and it certainly was considered of so much consequence, that the sanc tion of the House was thought necessary, that sanc tion should not be given without the most mature consideration. For his part, he could not, without the greatest difficulty, have made up his mind on the suhjeel, but that he 'had already perused these papers, and it was evident that those who had not had that opportunity, most remain in the nark. The Noble Lord then adverted to one of the oninions, which was anonymous, aad though not giveu by a regular military man, wealikely to command atten tion. Ho meant the opinion, of which Mr. Lewis, the late Under Secretary s-f War, was known to . be the anchor. It would be very easy to procure his signature; and also to hare a reconsideration of the qusstion. Lord li. PETTY was a little surprised to hear the Noble Lend who had just sat down, give his opinion that these papers should be produced pre paratory to the discussion about to take place, as that Noble Lord never thought, proper, when in office, to produce them, ebough they were in his possession for three years, during winds time there were many discussions on military affairs. Thu mode proposed of calling the General OM ; eers to the Bar, and examining ',hem on the subjet, was quite unconstitutional, and contrary to all• rule. It tools every privilege away from the House, and from the individuals who constituted it, as it in fad would make these officers determine on the subje l. and woule he nothing less than asking them whether the Bill should or should not pass ? The question should be agitated amongst themselves, without giving it up to any set of men, or leaving it to any General Officer. Every man should inform himself on the sobjet in the best manner he could, and be prepared to state his opinion in the Haase. Besides,. to consult the General Officers would be attended • with great delay. Mr. CANNING could not forbear making a few remarks on what bad been said in the coarse of this debate. If the Noble Lod who had just sat down were sue; rised at t' e arguments is tech ?sad been made use of by his Noble Friend (Lord Cas tlereagh), he was sure he had a still greater mason to be surprised at his arguments. It was true, as it had been said, that his Light liou. Friend, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, had stated that lie had it in contemplation to institute a proceed ing, such as was now before the Houle, with respeft to the military regulations of the country. On this account, he colleted these opinions, not far the purpose of bringing I award the measure, at all events, but to satisfy himself whether it would or would not be advantageous. He did satisfy hie:- Self that the measure could nut be adopted with propriety, and it, therefore, WAS not necessary that he should bring it forward ire the ;impose of show ing the House that the plan lie was about to dopt was not good. But when the Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Windham) had brought this very plan forward, he would ask, was it too much for the House to require, that these opinions should be pro duced ? or, could the firmer Ministers be blamed for not producing them, when they had not brought forward the measure. With resped to the ground for refusing the papers, lie could see none ; no reason had been given. If the Ministers had not perused them, that would be a sufficient ground for delay, or if they were not sufficiently exten sive ; but he thought it absolutely necessary for the information of the House, that they should be produced. The Right lion. Gentlemen concluded, by saving, that a story had been related by one of His M.Orey's.Ministers (Lord H. Petted on seating the Itlidget, of an old Iloman moralist, who had wished to build his house in such a style of arehi teture, that every person might see into it. like this man's house, the transitions of the present Ministers were to be ; but be was inclined to be hove, that the architedure of the house was not Rom tn, bur Gothic. and that it had heavy u indows. which did not admit the light, and passages filled with darkness and obsenti y. Lord DE BI.AQUIERE was sorry to be obliged to differ from the Hon. Gentlemen on the next bench to him (Mr. Canning and others). They thought that, with a limited service, the army could. not be supported ; but he was of opinion, that. without it, they could not obtain an efficient force. The plan, as proposed, was treated as novel and hazardous; but he did not think it was. The No ble Lord then said, that, in the year 1739, he had raised the 17th Regiment of Foot ; and. as there WAS no law against raising men for a limited time, be raised them for three years. In 1'762, their time was out, and he then enlisted the whole regiment, which was quartered at Coventry, with the excep tion of two men. for a bounty of a guinea each. He afterwards enlisted them a third time, when they went to America, and fought like lions. The Noble Lord concluded by saying, that there were some pant of the Bill which he dad not admire, par ticularlythe crooked sixpence at the end of the week. Sir JAMES PULTEN EY had never seen the opinions,-and thought it absolutely necessary that she House should see them, before they could be called on to &liver their opinion. The Hon. Gent. then observed on some arguments which had been made use of with resped to the systems adopted by Foreign Powers, and declared his intention of sup porting the motion fur the predudtien of the Papers. Mr. W. DUNDAS was fully satisfied that the ufficers, whose opinions it was wished to promul gate, would not like that the communications which had been obtained from them under the impression of their being confidential, should bif d rnede public. Had they been aware of the use now proposed to be made of their oeireions, they would, no doubt. have been more d'ffuse, and have more nicely re garded what they wrote. He did not mean to sat ~ their sent , mentswould not be of gnat servic•, it published ; but, as they were framed and written with a different view, he thought they ought not to be made public, or, it they were, that at least the distinguished Officers from whom they emanated, should have the opportunity of revising them. Mr. YOEVCE explain d. pa a Mr. Secretary FOX said, he agreed with an H Member under : he a,allerr . , that it was adi A.. ~.. thing to adopt opinions given under the ex A of their being made pub/ie. and these afforded as private. Web as had been Advanced on the other side of the House, no One iestance had been adduced of Parliament calling fur the separate opinions of military offie,-vs. The new arrangements proposed in the establishment of the army had been spokm of.as a great revolution in that department, but he would think it a much greater revolution, that confidential coeununications to the Commander in Chief, made in pursuance of his requisition, should tie called for irtParliantent. Nothing would more alter the charalter of the military of ea. The House, by the adoption of such 1 measure, would be receiving a bias in its legislative func tions. It the thiriee nor fourteen opinions Archie,' had been allud,al to were to be produced. the dies enssion that they would brig ) ", na could be likely to be one Trading to most impolitic results. lb did nut know that it was really cony cry to any A rule of Pariiatnera to embrace the measure proposed, hut he should like to have some gird example afforded of a thing so important in 1 . . s us.. cure, ere the proposition was istertained by tfie House. Were it to be acceded to, little peohiriss would be male towards obtainieg infiirmatiOn that should prove astsfaCtory. Send to inch and such • Offs:ers, it would be desired. HAS Ge ieral Preseot been consulted ? 1-lax this C: aeral bees applied r Is that General's opinion obi?' ' Ard ti.us, the House of Lords r• quit Twelve Judges, this Hot .i any conclusion on a mea fence of the cetrier drect• and fifty Ge Hon.-Gintlemsn that any measure tided opposition. Mr. YORKE a former Gentleman opjaions of certain Presidency of the Duk. of Ordnance, having b. I The Right H on Seeretar, opin 0 i of officers talc n tr.. a Board of General Cffizers. Colon il CRAIJFUIiD olaserv.- military plan whica had been latei . Ho Ise was cilled an atarm;nz revolts. hirsuppoted that we never had al ain. fors. It was odd enougl, howee.r„ 'ans. be in the recollec:io- or - ail who he irel him, . fi a: object of the Rea. Gentleman oppose L&: &vain it NVer) sad berth to rase a Mara. Ninety Thousand Men ; and his next measure to ife men Army of Fifty Thousand Mee ; hoth raised lasr a limited period of serv'ee The Ash( la rank and `lle of the lire enlisted for :he was 80,100 men, and great bulk of the army was mils enga,;ed for a terns of five years. And yet, such was the incomprehes. sible conduit of Gentlemen who choir to deprecate the system it seas proposed to put sue, that they a erned to enpaire whether, b , what they well plc ised to call this de-I:nous inrovation, Ministeva ' were not exposing Great Britain to be conquered ? Mr..YORKE said, that what the lion. Gentle man who had just sat down had attributed to him, was not a new n,easere which originated with him, but was merely a consolidation of the Militia. Colonel CRAUFURD observed, that it was something more than that, as, in duly, 1804, the Militia were augmented from Si to 90.000 men. Mr. PERCIVAL rose to notice an observation of a Noble Lord on the bench with him (Lord Do Blequiere), who considered that the incipient mili tary measures called for his approbation, because every other had failed. This was what he could not quiety hear. We were at present possessed of an army of 267,030 men ; and if the country could, tiseretere, want an army for its salvation (laid cheering fr.nre :'e oir):esition SePiehenl. then, indeed, was the observation warrantable, and then only. There were not wanting precedents of the praCtice recommended, nor evidence of its uti lity. In the year 1796, the House addressed Hi/ Majesty for the phsfose of procuring copies of the opinions of a Military Commission, and praying that such part might be withheld as could, through exposnre, be prejudicial to the state. The Hon, Member said, he felt confident of the prudence of the present Ministers in that respeit, and did not apprehend any danger in calling for the opinion of distinguished Military Officers now. It ap peered, therefore, strange, that there shouts bi . any objeCtion to dui: produsftien. A Right Hen Gentleman under the gelltry has said, that it the , ..were tendered a little more formal, there would b nes objedion. Their want of formality world b readily obviated, and the Officers might be at prised of the use for which they were wanted. ir / it a mere question of theory, or a pradical qaestiot we are discussing? (Hear! hear ! ) why ant the avail ourselves of the opinions of men most eminel in praitice ? The Right Honourable Gentle= (Mr. Windham) says, if we had the opinions, the nould be in his favour. Have we not, however the strongest demonstration, that they would opt rate in another way t We have another opiniot equally, if not more to be depended upon, that e a distinguished General Office: in this House (w understand the allusion to be to General' Gascoirem who entertained use same opinion with the ftigti Hon. Gentleman, but. on reading those paper changed it. I Near ! hrs. ! ) 11l were to take n , s Witte, I would rather see the opiniona separately detail, than jointly ; because I want the reasons gevein my own mind, and vot he mate of the mi iik, snide lip ;Tom the eccommodated opiniot et Due :104.4.11::1". WO see that they are divided . L ' ,but t of Tent Ho inn Gen- Id be