The Sun. — London, England, 1807-02-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF' LORDS. FRIDAY, FEB. 6. Mr. Hobbouse, Mr. Lygon, and several other Members of the House of Common's, brought up the Seametis' and Soldiers' Seduaion Bill, the Irish GunpOwderlmpOrtation Bill, the Canada Yarn and a Private Bill ; which were read a first time. The Grain Intercourse Bill passed through a Coin mittee and was reported. • On the motion of the Archbishop of CANTER BURY, the Bishop of Exeter Was desired to preach before their Lordships, in Westminster Abbey, on Wednesday, the .25th instant, being the day ap pointed fora General Fast. SLAVE TRADt. The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill for Abolishing the Slave Trade. The preamble having been postponed, • Lord GRENVILLE said, with respect to filling up the blanks in the Bill,' that the time which he intended to propose as the, period for the Aboli tion of this Trade might, perhaps, appear some what at variance with that eager desire which the House had expressed for the Abolition, but the gra tification arising from the near. prosped of at length carrying into effea this great measure would, per haps, induce them to give way, in.a small degree, to circumstances, an:: not to insist upon an Aboli tion to take place immediately. He proposed that the time to be fixed'for the Abolition of the Trade to the West Indies should be the Ist of 'Jan. 1808, but that the period after which no ships engaged ,in the Trade should clear out from. the ports of this country, should be the Ist of May in the present year. His on jeel proposing these.periods was, that the vessels at present engagdin the Trade should have a fairoppor- , tunity of clearing out from the ports'of this country previous to the ist Of May, and afterwardS of taking, in their lading in the ports of Africa,' and of carrying their cargoes to the West Indies, previous, to the Ist of January, 1808. As it might happen, however, that, from unavoidable circumstances, some vessels might not be able to complete their cargoes on the Coast of Africa, so as to carry them to the West Indies previous to that period, he intended to sub mit to the Committee a proviso, for the purpose of allowing vessels, under such circumstances, to trade to the West Indies with their cargoes. The Blanks were tilled upon conforinhy with his Lordship's propositions. The Earl Of HARDWICXE doubted whether the Provisions of the Bill would not interfere with the recruiting for his Majesty's service in the West In dies. Lord GE3NVILLE waft of opinion the recruiting would not be atlle'eed by the Bill, as Preemen, and not Saves, were the objeda of recruiting. • L. r l REDESDALE suggested, that as the Bill was at presented worded, it might be construed extend to prevent the Trade on the Coast of Africa from being carried on after the Ist of May next,' liCh was evidently not the object Odle framers of the Bill. Lord GRENVILLE said, a doubt of that nature bad just been suggested to him, and he thought it deserved consideration, as the limitation of the Ist of May was certainly only intended to apply to the clearing out from the Ports of this Country. If it teas found to be necessary, an explanatory Clause might be introduced in a inture stage of the Bill. A short conversation also took place betweeh Lord Rebeshiee - and Lord GelLevieee, the former Noble Lord conceiving that the-Bill might be con strued to extend to our possessions in the East In dies, and to -our faCtories in Asia Minor. Lord GRENVILLE observed, that no Slaves had been im ported to either for souse time. He was aware, however, that both in the East Indies and in Asia .Mator there were many Christians who kept a nuinuer of Slaves, but he elid not conceive that this Bill could be construed to extend so as to injure them in their property. He would, however, again con-. Sider the subjeCt, and, if necesaary, a Clause to pre vein the efree-t of any such construction might be proposed. The blanks having been filled up, Lord GRENVILLE proposed a proviso, allowing such vessels as should have cleared out front the Ports of this Country for Africa, previous to the Ist of May next, aad should not have been able to complete their lading to Africa so us to carry their cargoes to the West Indies previous to the st of Janeary, 1808, to trade neverthelesS to the West Indies with such cargoes. &ell GRENVILLE also stated, that as some persons might take advantage of the interval allowed, to make two voyages ‘t ith the same vessel, be intend ed, therefore, to propose a Clause to prevent that advantage then being. taken. In the course of conversation in the Committee, the Earl of WESTKoRLANb suggested, that the thee fixed for the Abolition ought to be extexided, Parlia ment having by the Act of last Session pledged it self that the trade should continue for two years. Lard GRENVILLE dented that any such:pledge bad becms given by Parliament, as the object df the Bill passed last Session was to prohibit any more . Vessels from being engaged in th e t ra d e , bu t th ere was nothing in it from which it could be inferred, that the . Vessels aheady engaged in the trade were to be allowed to continue it tor any certain time. The provisions of the Bill having been gone theough, the preamble was again taken into consi deettion. . , Lord HAWKESBURY objeaed to the words in the preamble, which declared the Slave Trade to be contrary 'to justice, humanity, and sound policy.--. Upon the principles which were thus Stated as the grouthls of the Abolition, he could not understand the' diathea ion made between the Abolition of the Trade, end the. Emaneipatioe of the Slaves already in the islauds. Athniteng, for the sake of argument, the assertion in the preamble to be true, the same princi ple would equally apply to the existing state of slavery Flt the West India Islands, as to the abolition of the trade in Staves. It was perfealy clear, that if the trotted of expediency was taken as the foundation of 'this measure, that then there would be a mark ed distinCtion between abolition and emancipation, the tbrmer would be expedient, whilst the latter would be clearly inexpedient. He thought it. would have" been wiser to have worded the Resolution of last Session, so as to place the Abolition on the ground of inexpediency, than to have agreed to it in the form in which it passed, but at any rate that Resolu tion was nonbinding on the House with respect to the, wording of this Bill. He would not now argue over again the measure of the Abolition, - hut whatever good the advocates of that measure expected to de rive from it, •no benefit could, in his opinion, be derived from retaining these words in the preamble ; on the contrary, be thought that much danger was to be aprehended from holding out to the Negroes in the West Indies, the principle, that the Slave - Trade, by which they were originally brought thither, was contrary to justice and humanity. The Earl of CA RNABFON contended that the SlaVe Trade, by tearing men from their fami. lies and their country in order to place them in a state of slavery, for the purpose of producing profit to the, Planters,' was in itself essentially unjust, and inhus man, and therefore that the words which so charac terized it, ought to be.retained. The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the expression in the Preamble having been admitted by the Noble Lord (Hawkesbury) to be true, it followed that it ought to be retained. What was the objeCtion of the Noble Lord last night ? It was; That this Trade ought not to be abolished, except in conjundion with foreign Powers, and now the Noble Lord, by, his motion, would take away the only ground. upon which we could ask other powers to co-operate in the Abolition of the. Trade. If we declared that we abolished the Trade on the ground of ex-. pediency alone, then it might be fairly supposed that we did so for reasons applicable to ourselves alone, or toour own Colonies, but by stating broadly' and distineily that the Trade was contrary to jus tice and humanity, there we took a ground upon Which we might fairly call upon other Powers to co operate with us in abolishing the Trade.: He could not discover any reason for apprehending danger from thus expressing, in a Legislative Aa, their opinion.of the Trade, whilst the retaining the words objected to, was the best mode they could at pre sent adopt of leading to . a General Abolition. The Earl q . MORTON thought the adoption of abstrad principles in a Legislative At was incon sistent-with the wise and wary language which their ancestors had used on such occasions, and seemed rather like an adoption 'of that mode of expressive; which had been so repeatedly used in modern trance. Earl STINHOP E approved highly of the expres sionsin the PreaMble which had been-objected to. He thought, however, that . this Bill would not do Much towards the abolition of the Slave Tradewith out the adoption of adequate regulations in the Colo oies. It might, perhaps, be proper to engt, that every Slave imported into the Islands. contrary to law, after the time limited for the Abolition of the Trade, should ipso facto be free. If the local Legis latures would not adopt regulations sufficient to car ry the Abolition into complete effect, ,we had the means of compelling them, by imposing additional duties, and in other ways. If we could not speak to their hearts, we, might to their pockets, and by the latter mode produce a greater effect than could possibly be produced - by DemoSthenianbr Ciceronian eloquence. Lord REDESDJ.ILE expressed ,apprehensions that danger would arise from retaining these ex pressions in the Preamble, and called the attention of the House to the dangerous consequences which re sulted in France from the adoption of abstra& prin ciples in Legislation, which, however true in them .,elves, were applied in a manner that produced con fusion and anarchy in that country. The Earl of LAUDERDALE maintained that the words winch it was proposed to leave out were most essential words in the Bill. How was the great obje& of general Abolition to be attained, it it ap peared upon the face of our own proceedings that we were only actuated by considerations of expediency., and that in calling upon other Powers to abolish trade, we made no sacrifice ourselves ? This lit!. could illustrate by a communication which he hail whilst at Paris with one of the French Ministers on this sub jea. On his urging to the Ministers r, ',le Abolition of this Trade, he was answered, that it co'rild not be expected that the French Gfixiernment, irritated as it had been by the, condua of the Negroes in St. Domingo, would readily agree to the ,Abolition of the Trade. He replied, that the Abolition would have been the only ett'eaual means of preventing the horrors which had occurred in that Island.. Then the truth came out ; he was told by this Minister, England, her. Colopies well stocked, with Ne groes, and di - Circling a large produce, might abolish the Trade without inconvenience ; but that France, with Cole nits ill stocked, and deficient in produce, could not abolish it without conceding to us the greatest advantages, and sustaining a proportionate loss. Thus, then, if we were to declare the ground Of oiar abolishing the trade to be expediency alone, we should be declaring that we were actuated by the very policy imputed to us by the French Minister ; and how, in thus being supposed. to ma l ke no sacri fice ourselves, could we. call with any cheat upon foreign Powers to co-operate in the Abolition ? The Duke (9' MONTROSg declared himself to be a friend to the Abolition, but he thought at the same time, that it would be i better to leave out the words objeaed to. Lord HOLLAND said he could not clearly un 7 , derstand the distillations which hadd - been attempted to be drawn between justice'-and expediency. He was of opinion, that if the subjea was fully consider ed, those distinctions would be found to centre in the same point. It was.not a distillation between justice and expediency, with regard to Abolition and Etnan 7 cipation ; on the contrary, whilst on the one hand it was esentially just that the Trade should .he abolished,. t would on the other be injustice, to the slaves in the Islands. to give them emancipation, because' it could. only tend to their Own injury. He was stirprisecho , hear the Noble and Learned Lord (Redesdale).:on demning the introdu,'.tion of abstract principles into legislation. What did' our Bill of Rights contain but absriad principles ? He was decittediy of opi nion that the words ought to be retain 6. No dan ger whatever had resulted frota condu& in several of the provinces in America, where the Trade had been abolished, and slavery stir/ continued. • . ice DUKE OF CLARENC4 urged' thb danger which might result from retaini.4; these expressions. When the negroes in the island‘, found that no fresh importations took place, they w Ould.natUrally inquire the cause, and when theyfwad that the Trade was abolished, and declared to be contrag to justice, hu manity, and sound, policy, ! - ,, , 0u1d it not have a ma tetial erfeat in their minds ixith.respect to their own. situation, and the means kr,: which . t4ey were broI.ILX there ? ' • The Cimmittee Aided on the question, that tl.e words obje&ed to stand part of the p:camble.—Con- tents, 33—Non-Contents, 10--,Majority, The House resumed, and the Report was ordero to be received on Monday. , , ADMINISTRATTN OF 11/STICt; IN SCOTLAND. Lord GRENVILLE, in consequence of the Report of the Slave Trade Bill standing, for discussion on Monday, begged leave to postpone bringing forward the Bill respekling the Administration of Justice in Scotland till Thursday. CHINESE TN TRINIDAD. The DUKE of CLAR ENCE said, he had intended to bring, forward a Motion respe&ing the Chinese im ported into Trinidad, but after communicating with several Planters upon the subjea, he thought it ad visable not to bring it forward.—Adjourned till Mon day. HOUSE OF COMMONS. FRIDAY, FEB. 6. Lord WILLIAM RUSSELL presented a Petition from the Tanners in Surrey against the Oak Bark Bill.—Petiiions were also presented against the Bill ty the Tanners of Newcastle under Line, and the 'Tanners of Chester and Exeter:—Referred severally to the Committee on the said Bill. Sir RALPH MtLaANKE acquainted the Houe that the Saltash Committee were obliged to adjourn from this day till to-morrow morning, in consequence of the absence. of one of their Members ; and moved that George Granville Venables Vernon, Esq. (the Member alluded to) be required to attend in his place on Monday next.—Ordered. Mr. Johnston, from the Office of the Chief Secre tary in Ireland, gave in at the Bar a Return of the Receipts and Disbursements from the Commissioners of Accounts in Ireland. Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST moved, that the . COM» mittee appointed to search for Precedents touching the Expulsion of Members from that House, be em powered to send for Persons„ Papers, and Records, &c.—Ordered. Mt. SWAN moved for, a new Writ for the City. of. ;Vorcester, in the room. of Henry Bromley, Esq. who had accepted the Stewardship of the Chiltern: Hundreds.—Ordered. Lord TEMPLE brought up, the Bill for regulating the Trade to and froth the Cape of Good Read a first time, and ordered, to be read a second time on Monday. The Turkey Tobacco Bill . was ordered to be printed, and committed -for Tuesday next. • Upon the Motion of Mr. VA NSI TTART, the iHottse went into a Committee to consider furthei the Gtant to his Majesty. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Mr. VANSITTART moved„ that•a sum „not exceed 7 ing One Million Two Hundred Thousand Pounds, be granted for the purpose of discharging the ' terest of such Exchequer Bills as, shall have been paid - for the year t 806.—Agreed to. Upon the House resuming it was ordered, on 'the Motion of Mr. Holmousz, that the Report be to ceiyed on Monday.. SOUTH 4MPTON PETITION, THdMAS ASHTON SMITH presented a Petition ' from certain of the Clergy, Gentlemen, and Free- holders of Southampton. • The SPEAKER, request the Honourable Member would have the govlUess to state the obje& of the - Petition. Mr. SMITP: said that it related to undue. prreices at the later EleCtion for Southampton. • Mk'. TIERNEY wished the Gentleman would state tivlre explicitly the nature and. objet of the Peti,tioa he was about to present.. • Mr. WILLIAMS WYNNE COLIId not vote for the admission of a Paper of which he was as yet entirely ignorant. Mr. A. SMITH thought he bad gone through the necessary forms in stating the Parties petitioning, the matter of the Petition, and in moving that such Pe tition be received. The SPEAKELt felt it his duty to apprise the Hon. Member, that a prayer in formar in substance was - essential to the nature of a Petition.; that. mere statements were not sufciput ; and that theref ore it Would be advisable for the Honourable Member to state whether the Petition in- question, contained a Prayeror not. Mr. A. SMITH replied, that the Petition would not be found defeetive in any of the usual forms; and took upon himself to aftirm,.that it did contain a prayer : an alledged grievance was complained against, and it was prayed' thab the House would iuterfere to rem** or to remove it. The, Peti. tion was then received, and read 4) substance as' follows : • " That the unders:gned Gentlemen, Clergy, Free men, and Freeholders of the County of Southamp- . ton, having witnessed with the deepest concern that is the late Eledion for that County the most unconstitutional measures were resorted to, felt it a duty which they owed to themselves, 'to the County, and above all to the Privileges of that Ho nourable House, to state the transa6tions which, in their humble opinion, tend to contaminate the pu rity of EleOion, and to Idea the dearest interest of the Subjea ; that in the late Ele6tion for the said County, certain persons high in the confidehce of Government, and others holding weighty, and, re sponsible situations under the Crown, were- guilty of an 'active and undue interference, to influence the freedom of Ele6tion, and that particularly William H. Freemantle,.Esq. a Member of that Honourable House, Joint Secretary of the Treasury, had been peculiarly` zealous in enforcing, by means highly un constitutional, the claims of certain of the Cancii• dates, in contempt of the right of franchise, and in violation of the privileges of that Honourable House ; that the Petitioners, having in due 'remembrance the Resolutions. entered upon the Records of that Ho nourable 'House, indignitutly deprecating any at tempts upon the part of power to coerce or to cor- rupt the franchise of the S . übjeci, should have felt it a violation of their duty if they had not submitted the above statement to parliamentary notice, and if they had not, as they did theri, pray for such inter ference upon the part of the Honourable House as iti"t heir discretion it might think best calculated to punish such a breach of the privileges of , Parliament, and such an outrage upon the freedortief Eleetion, • and the liberty of the Subje&." , It 070.0 subscribed. by upwards of ninety signatures. Mr. 4. Smir -moved that the said PAtion: do upon alit table. Lord TZMP LE said, that tkere Witt not in that House who .would be more anxious that such a Petition should receive, as it was ent itled to, 113 ' most serious attention of Parliament, than be was. He should certainly support the, motion that it do lie on the table. At the same time, that if the allegations set forward. in the Petition were foond to have originated in mere calumny, and to be totall y groundless, lie could not help thinking that in suck case the calumniators would be deserving Of the most serious animadversion. Be could not satistactoriii account, to himself for - the great delay that had occurred in Winging such serious charges before the House. Mr. C4NN!NG said, he did not much liketlie appearance in a certain qUatter of starting premilug e obje&ions. The Petition, when it was offered td the House, encountered a clainolit of objeaiongi which, however, were no sooner started :than rid of; and now that it is presented and read; that it is admitted that it should lie upon the tabl4 he could not see the reason nor the justice' in arguing. from a possible ulterior decision against what was to enable Gentlemen to decide... It looked more like prejudice than itnpartiality. Mr. TIERNEY did not think it at all prejudging the Partition, to observe upon the apparent moon' sistency (and indeed au incons:stency 'that it was nn" attempted to account for) of the complaint being s c 4 long subsequent to the injury complained of. the Petitioners had no motive for delay, it did sr pear to him that they had done themselves and their cause a very manif,:st injustice in .nof having pre sented a Petition upon the first day 'of the Session , or upon as early an opportunity after as' possible;' lie did not prejudge the merits Of the: Petition, aria in deciding hereafter upon tfiem,'no gentleman, IA trusted, would ,stispea 'him of being - influenced bf any unworthy motive.' Mr. PERCIVAL should be far from q - nestionins the motive of the Right Hon. Gentleman in deciding ,upon. this or upon- any other Petition, but could nog be ,brought to think that' this PetitiOn was liable to very serious objections nierely because tht. Petition ers thought proper to choose their own time for pre". sentinff'it. The only question for the House was , could the alledged charges be supported ? and it; upon due consideration, they shall appear to be inane out by stiff:At:lent testimony,. surely Ge/olernegl' would 'net contend thaf In that case the prayeibj th e Petition could be.atfeaed by any objeaion to the time at which., that Petition had beep prCseutech- s , Gentlemen might exercise - their wit and powers ridicule as ranch as they pleased ; as to.any introdu 4 ' torr informalities, _ but it once those fans were pro" ed, there . weuld arise a. much more segiois - discur sion. WILLI,AIII WYNNE confidently apPPale 4 to_the House it any thing had till eu f rom t i i „ E 5 . 0 0 to justify the implicit charge of treating the present subject with any species, of levity.. Un th e coc oa", ry, he insisted that the business froui rho e~innit Thad been taken Up by that side of the House with 31 : the seriousness it merited he for his part,. let wl o * would be the result, could see it in _no' „Other tb.l the most serious point of view—important if O t facts alledked were ,proved j . and, equally imports ` t " in his mind, if they should be disproved • Mr. HURST tfid not tb,ink it of the smallest taro' client illent whether the Petitioners, were lo ut 'lced by sense of duty, or hi sinister motives, they 'Jr on them to bring . against cert a in persons certOina charges, an a l be rejoiced that it w ou ld b e n o w soak decided how far these charges were warranted bf proofs, from the rumours that had been so triOnsly oircubted not alone through tlie county c ) ," . cerned, but through the country. He was g1a03,04" the Petition had found its way i n t o th at H ouse , al l . that those rumours would be for even. silenced by P.P paramount decision of the People's Represeptatives for hehad no hesitation in saying that he anttcipate. with con4dence an issue hottouxable, to the parti'll 'B9 calumniated. Mr. RUSE was - not willing to suO n skipp. the : partiality of the Uononrable Meniber spe . l o last, but as it had been urged as , an .obj t ectil to the Petition, the time of its being presented,, 11 , would beg leave to set Gentlemen ri g ht upon tl f • head, ; the. Petition was delayed for tic. put-pow: n f meeting the consideration of a greater number" Members. Had it been, pre,,;elited, << s !t wasi.bugl Bested} upon the,first o.ly of 'the Sesdo :) ,, it „youl'i have come before the House at a time. when .a ,Gentlemen were abSevt i the importance - of its matter is taken into consideration, Gentlemen must be.convinced of ti'v . galadia(t‘)vr.pihtrye:porfiettly'enl Countrya fora full attendance.. Mr. STURGES BOURNE highly approved ,°f the cami;cl and hondurable m anner in whiCh rc h " tition was brought f o r war d . Th e matter to it related was acknowledged on all sides to be ° .the utmost importance, involving no less considers-- Lions than those of the dearest rights of the Subjec t ! and the privileges o f t , hat House. He insi ste d thatZ; would hare been trifling with either to hurry on discussion before there had been a sufficient atten,, i ance to give it adequ a t e cons id erat i on . He repeatl; his sense of th e candid andhonourable way hi Wb' e it had been submitted to the Souse. Mr. FIiELikLINTLE could not help asking th e Honourable Gentleman if be thought the few Me tti; bers present constit ute d th e f u ll atten d ance t h a t was allowed to be so desirable .and so necessary to the due consideration of this Petition ? He was indeed har t py that it had been pr e sent e d, b ut t h ere was a OP ( informality, as far as related' to himself, and ° which the House probably was no t aware , It h ad . been the practice in a ll p rocee di ngs p ersona lly atie c e ing any Member, to g i ve t h at M em b er eve ry , notice ; he had been personally interested in the r i t' tition, and yet it was in hi s place in that House e received the first intimation of the serious charge s that bad been advanced against him. The busin e , ; altogether was, upon his part, entirely unexpectet . he might with truth say he had been taken .by tint prise. , Mr. STURGES BOURNE, in explanation, 0" that in speaking of the necessity of a on a future day, he did not mean any allusion 1 ° the numbers then in the House. The Petition wa s t net then to undergo consideration ; b , at , i(Av th° the Members in general had come t,) their PI: liamentary duty, there was a certainty of a full n ice in , whenever this Petition 'was to come brior ,s , .Howe. • . • Lord 1-10IVICK thoug - ht; that as the charge s ]n tl . „ leacd in the Petition were of the most w „ i ies t kind, so did they exact from' that House the st ric scrutiny, and the most mature consideration i Jici