The Sun. — London, England, 1807-01-24 00:00:00

CO.4MITTEE OF SUPPLY. On the Motion of Mr. T. GRENVILLE, the:House' I. so i lved itself into a . Committee of.Supply,.to which the Accounts of the Ordinaries of the Navy, and other Estimates - respealbg that service, were re leired ;: Me.:Ebibifou.s6 . in. the Chair,' _ . _ Said, that it was then his duty ty propo9le Committee, pursuant to his Itotice on alb - rni - g ay, the tin-ther Naval Supplies Which remained to be considered. Gentlemen would, *eeolleta tilat.he bad given notice-of his intention' on t b\' , day to move a vote'oflo,ooo seamen :in addition t 0 the ,420,000 already voted. The, natural course is O r to pursue on this occasion, would be, to sub -1/lit th e R eso lution immediately to' the Conitnittee. 3311 t . acitAWaiimpossible not to recoiled_ the refer ,tkhat,,had been made to this elsubjel in a ortner aenate, charg4l * 2; inattntion upon is Ma- Jesty's . MittiSterslor having this second vote .to bring fOrivard;- as , it •wduld' be rerne.mbered, that a -re tleftion, wasAt the same time r cast on the ptecipita 7 1 )011 of his Majesty's Government, in having brought fo rward One . vote . separatly; when 'they ought to . have brought both forward "together; he felt hint , ;elf called upon. to , say a f qw words in his .own, justification, to shew that the charge ,W precipitar tiOn was unfound: A. When the former vote hat been submitted to the House, it was founded upetit the usLiaYand ordinary grounds„upcut ; which such Votes were invariably brought forward. The House liras acquainted with the c=ourse arid . cetiduci of naval affairs in - time of - war, tha=tilo' cheek was ever pat to the recruiting for the-navy,. whatever might be the number of men voted._ The - vote in time of war. Iv as usually founded upon the reports of the recruit lbg for the navy in the preceding year, and whenever the vote was brought , tOrward beforelhe3Oth of De vflolber, was ,funncted upOn..an average up to the 4 0th of September, but when brought for Ward sub- Sequent to the 30th of December, it was taken on the returns of the whole year, and not on the average . Of the three first quarters.. The returns were . made only every quarter. When. 7 he.. had , brought for, ward the former vote, he had only the average of t he three first quarters, - up to the 30th of Septem r, r, to guide him, and did not give much more that; 1:20,000 men, which he then proposed to vote.' W hen-the accounts for the year, however,-had been Il lade, up, it appeared that the number of men ItnOunted to 126,000 and upwards. Having great reaso n to think, that, when so _many had -been oh tainecl, the number could be carried to 130,000, !specially when he had the satisfaelion .to- State; that the increase in the last three months afforded a. pro -112e6t. of a much greater 'number, he 'trusted the Iliause would agree with him, that, in the present ci rcumstances, the vote should be extended to 1 3 0,000 men. Having statedihus much to SheW that the charge of precipitation was unfounded, and having iven that explanation of the proposed additional vote, lt would lik ew i se b e con f orma b le to the usua l and s a rdina r ycontse to s u bmit the vo t e t o th e C om mit tee , kith an intimation of readiness to give any inlet; l _ s _a v tiOn that may be desired by any persons who might , h ave curiosity to look into the Estimates, if they be 1 state the objeas of their inquiry. He should . 0 ready in such a case, as was his duty, to give the . , be satisf a ae ry answer to any cineition that might c put to him. But he was.desirous to sava few , words hnthe general cour se o f t h e subject. I t appeared to hcilelsatiahat, ac cor di ng to t h e manner in wh i ch the Nava l nts were. akpresent submitted. to Parliament, ei e . , as Z:tienot a minute detailed information given ct large' and imp ortant a stibjea- imperiously de . - . 1 In sayi ng t hi s, h e di d not presume .to cast ) o.'_. ~. censure on the pr o c ee di ngs o f f ormer Administrn ieLks far from th at b e i ng , t h e case, t h at, on t h e lit 4Pqn.en.c9 he had in the 'business of his .depart ment, he would not venture to propose hastily any }flan to change'the course tbat had been for many years adopted. At the same time, it was impossible, from the manner in which the Naval Estimates were present ed to the House, that a sufficient degree of information cotild•be derived from them. In framing them a cer tain scale of arithmetical calculations was'adopted, which did not always give the result expe.-led. - A notion .had been established, that, when 120,400 seamen were voted, if 71: per man were -allowed, .such allowance, with the Ordinaries, the Extraordi retries, and the Transport Charge, would answer the geperal, service.: He was not disposed to criticise this allowance of seven pounds per man. The al lowance had - been changed, in t 797, from four to se ven pounds, because, whilst the allowance was four pounds, there was_every year an extreme addition to the Navy Debt. Another point was, that the dis tribtition of this 71. per man professed to do what it-did not do - . It was - divided into four branches, but not adequate-to them all. The allowanees for wages and victuals might be sufficient; but the third branch, 'the wear and tear of ships, was so very general, that this specific allowance was far frbrh 'covering it; and, if •a: true and corre& statement of the real expence were laid before the House, would appear to be great ly insufficient. He had no wish to, trespass on the Committee, but though he did not mean at present to propose any change, he had thought it right to trouble the Committee with a few words, to assure the House that his Majesty's Alinisters had paid an early attention subje&. Econotny Was strength and defence, and, a course of econorny Could not be persned with outparsuing the details of large and - complicated ac counts. It was the duty of the House to attend to these details, and in the discharge of that duty, theY would create strength, by proving to the people, that thesums-which thepiOntribute freely are carefully ap- ThiS was the reason; that in the other branches ut the Government the details were e submitted to the HOUse. fie 'was desirous of following 'the ex'aniple; and therefore he would not ventureupOn' his own opinion, to makeany change in the Mode of submit ting these accounts to the House; but he was anxi ous to state to the House, that in the following year It' Would hot bedifficult to pursue the details of the 'naval ex pewees,- soas to make them clear and, intelli gible. There were several branches however of Which it would be impossible to make any eerre& or aectirate statement' it was itnpOssible to calculate the etreas of tempests, the casualties of engagements, or:the expences arisingfrom the alteration of he des . tination of - Expeditions.` But'every thing would and ought' to be done to remove every obscerity '!itra that: could be done: .It was to,this part, he himself, and' with success, but the merit was .not. his. He was indebted to the assistance and la bours'-of others: On tills ground it-was, that if it should be his duty to bring forward the Naval Esti mates next year, he should lay them before the,House under, detail, under distinet and separate heads. If *the Honse would indulge him for a short tithe, he would read them -without dwelling upon them; they being three or four and twenty in number.. He pro posed to distribthe tthe Naval Estimates under these seVeral heads, wages of officers and men at sea and in port, half-pay of the Navy, marines, raising men and -volunteers, telegraphs, pileting, pensions to widows, and commissions to warrant officers, wages of officers and labOUrefs in deck-yards, building ships, in mer chants' yards, hire of armed vessels, the purchase of stores, the most importapt article,divided into various branches, which in the present year amounted to n . ,660;0001. bills of exchange, and' incidental vices. The next heads he had tb' mention Were, the Vianalling and. Transport BTrds, the ex; pences. Of Which should be submitted more in detail to the - House.'it the Public Offices were to berapprised of hisintentione they would be prepared to supply the accounts in the form required, and every.clerk. by referring to an index, would be able to state ,Cx.a&ly the precise state of his account.— Flaving said this of the plan he, had in contemplation, he thought it necessary to advert to one or two rir tk,es of expence in the present Estimates. The first was an article of expence which, in its present shape, 'ought not to be introduced in the ,Navy .Estimates. This was a charge of 600,0001. for victualling garri-: sons abroad, which did not properly belong to the Navy Estimates. The only - other article that re mained, for bhp to touch upon was one which had been the subjea of discussion last Session, thoheh he had not been present at the discussion. It would be recolleded that a Commission of Natal Review had been instituted, fbr the _purpose of receiving the Suggestions of the Cothrnissioners of the Naval In . quiry. This_Commission was composed of persons .. of whOM he could not but. speak with reSped, as men from whOm much useful information could be bad. At the same time he Was ready fairly to state that much inconvenience had arisen from the existence ,of that Commission. Whilst the Noble .Person who had been- at first at the head of that ComMiSsion was also at the head of the Admiralty, this inconvenience had not been felt because the sug gestions of the Commissioners would immediately be aeted upon. But at present the notoriety and publi city of their Reports caused "considerable inconve nience, by making them the subject of disCus sions in the different departments of the Naval ser - vice. He concluded.with moving, that 10,000 ad ditional Seamen, including 2400 Royal Marines, be employed in the Navy for the service of the year 1807: • Mr. OEOgGE JOHNSTONE thought that the Right Hon.,Gentleman had no reason to apololz;se to the House for having explained himself in detail.--- j His speech had been very satisfactory to him ; and he 1 was,sure it would be satisfatlory,to the House, that he should at all times gratify them in that way. He did not think, howeVer, that the reason assigned by the Right Hon. Gentleman - for the • rote of the additional number of , seamen was satisfaaory.- 1 If the returns, were made only quarterly they ought to be made more frequently. Something must be wrong and ought to be set right, when the First I Lord .of therAdmiraity was ignorant of the a - anal number of men employed. As to the submitting ! the accounts in detail, that the House would agree a Hd thought that several of the Accounts might, in tkt present instance, be furnished in detail to the House, such as those of the Transport and Viaual [ ling Bords. I Mr. POSE obserVed, that the Right Hononra : ble .Gent leman Would hate no difficulty in, proem.; ing a, detailed_ statement of the Accounts, because they had been :annually : prepared in the different ► Office; for the last s.veu or 'eight'yearS. The al lo wance of 71. per man had been found sufficient since -the beginning. of" the War. The Estimates might still be voted under 'the principal . heads, though the detailed information might, be sup -1 plied to Parliament. As to the supply of the garri sons abroad, that regulation had been adopted with a .view to economy. The stores for that purpose . had formerly been suppli e d on contraa - by Members of that House ; but as that produced an inconvenience, by multiplying the purchasers in the market, his late Right Hon. Friend had transferred the whole to the Navy Board.. The Noble Lord to whom the Right Hpu. Gentleman had alluded had not been at the head of the Admiralty when the Commission of Na val Review was first instituted. Mr. PERCIVAL did not - objed to this vote of -I 0,000 additional Seamen, because he did' not think the Navy could be carried to too great an extent, but thought it extraordinary that it had not been at first proposed. The Naval-Commission of Review bad been instituted for the purpose of carrying into effe6t some suggestions of the CogimissiOnets of Naval Inquiry. But the inconvenience the Right Honourable Gentleman complained of must take place in cases where the , Report of the Commis sioners did not fall in with .the opinion of the persons who were to a6l upon it. It did not fol low, however, that the suggestions of the Cornmis sioners may not be as wise as the opinion of his Majesty's Ministers, though the Right Honourable Gentleman had said that, much inconvenience had arisen from the Reports,of the Commission. .If the continuance of the Commission were productive of inconvenience it ought to be discontinued ; and if, ou the contrary, it was produdive of benefit; its dura - lion ought not to be litnitedto any time, till its la bours should be compl e t e d. , . Lord-ITI. PETTY wished ,merely to set the Hon; Gentleman .Tight with resped to the faal of the ap pointment. a the Commission of Review. It had not been : appointed at the-suggestion of the. Com, ruissioners o(_ Naval Inquiry. As to the condu6t of his Right Hon..P,riend, there was a difference be tween• a ;Commission to.,be appointed, whatever•his opinion might be upon the sUbje6t, and the putting a sudden and abrupt termination to one. before its: la bours. should be terminated. ..As to the statement that it would be easy to produce the accounts in de 7 . tail, he should only observe, that they had never yet been submitted to the House in that form. 1 Admiral MARKHAM gated, that the Account of the Repairs of Ships ; called the Doomsdaybook, had been kept . till, the period when 'Lord 'Barham ceased-to be Comptroller Of the Navy. Since that time, he had repeatedly called for such an Account, and had beeti - infornied that it was impracticable. Mr. ROSE said lie spoke not of Doomsday-book, but he repeated that an account, such as that ,'de scribed by the Right Hon. Gentle ma n, had b een re gularly made arthe NaVy Office for many years. Mr. GRENIJILLE asked, why, if the Account was prepared, it was not presented to Parliament ; and why those who had been guilty .of this remissL ness, accused'him of not proceeding upon the neW; plan in the present instance ? Mr. J01 :- /NSTONP, complained of the employ ment of 126,000 seamen, Without a specific mo tion for the increase, when only i 20,000 were voted . . A specific cause should have been assigned for the increase of the number. He wished to know how far the savings held out by the Naval Inquiry, insti , tuted uncle.r the . .l.`coble Lord (St. Vincent), now one Of the Commissioners of the Admiralty, by which a saving of one-third, or one-foUrth of the Naval Expenditure had been promiS e d, had b een realized. Mr. ROSE read an account for the year 1798, which he had brought from.his house, corresponding exa&ly with the plan of account 'proposed by Mr. Grenville. Such an account had been'uniformly pre pared in the NaVy Office, during the last 14'years, by the direction of Mn. Pitt. Mr. VANSITTARt stated, that these accounts were not in the Treasury,. that it was Sir JOHN NEV'PORT complained, vely much the pratclice of'men in office to take away the Official Papers, so as to leave their suc cessors without the necessary information. In answer to some questions from Mr. RLITIIVEN, Mr. ROSE stated; that the Account he bad pro duced was a copy tbr his private use from an official paper. As to the observation, that these Official Papers were not now in the Treasury, he had only to say, he was not the guardian of them. The Vote of 10,000 additional Seamen was then agreed to, and the following sums were voted for their support : - - ‘240,500 2 47 ,°c° .- - - 390,000 • 3215°4° For Wages Fur Victuals - - For Wear and Tear of Ships - :For Ordnance Votes were also passed The Ordinary of the Navy - - - • 1 035 , 494 For Bunging , and Repairing Ships - - - . 2, 134,903 Vor the Hire of Transport Ships - - - 1,5,0,000 For the. Maintenance of Sick and Wounded Seamen 300,000 For the .Maintenance of Prisoners of W ar _ _ • 500,000 On the Motion of Mr. VANSITTART, a list of mis cellaneous services was voted, comprising_ For the Siiperintendance of Aliens - For the Public Office in Bow-street - For the. naintenanc9 of_Conxids :it Home - - For the Contingencies of the Offices of the two Secre- - 6,853 - ,200 1.350 • raries of State - - - ISioco For the extra Charge of Messengers to the Continent 12,000 For Swet,Servicc Nloney - - - f7s,oodi For Law Charge - - - •zo,ooo For the extiaoroinary Expences of Prosecutions re lating to the Colo - - - - - 000 To Sireritn, for Rewards for the CO nv idion of Felons 1 , 3, 600 For the Relief of the French Emigrants - • r4e,197 For the Deficiency of this Fund in the last Ycar - 1,432 Ter Dissenting Ministers - • 10,336 For the Salaiies of Officers belonging to both Houses - of Parliameeit - _ • - 5247 For the Exp .of Parliament, alid the S pe.ker's house , - To make good Deficiencies in this Eel in the last year _ _ - For Military ROads in North Britain - 59,760 4993 The Report to,be received on Monday.. On the Motion of Lord Howick, it was ordered, that the Cominittee to incl . nire into precedents of Members expelled, should sit, notwithstanding any adjoqrnment. . ; , of ng 1 it 11d 'co ia# to he Set ~;, .i v t: ~ 119 !1 es G, 4 _ lll ttrebad Opt been _any prneeding before the House ' 0 warrant such a Petition, till abiiiit ; an'honr [too: Lord STANLEY - Was of Opinion, that this Oon Was of a nature so diaatorial, that it ought not to be suffered to remain upon the table of the House; kit he would not agree `that it would justify a' dis ' ' f ranchisement of the Borough, because that would °Onfound the 'innocent with the guilty. . The Peti ; - Lion was itr the hands of the Noble,Lord betbre any Motion was made on the subjeA, or the Petitioners could know whether their rights would be affeelecl thereby. The Petition was dictatorial; and presUmed to lay dawn the law, and therefore ought not . to be laid on the table. Mr. STURGES BOURNE' entered his prOtest against the - dodleines that had been laid:down by the i\ r ohle Lord., anct. by the Hott. Gentleman who bad contended thSt the language of the PetitiOn was I ,l l 3prope t 'fo'jlisfify the disfranchisement of - the orough: 'The Petitioners had a right to petition, if t hey apprehended, no matter upon what ground, that their rights were in danger-of being invaded. The 14 nguage Of theTetition.was thwame.with.the lim- Plage recorded upon the Journals of the House, that on attempt to invalidate' a return, where the it eraoli Was not legally disqualified, was subversive of. the fights of electors. tiad not the' PetitiOnei - s a right to use the same language as the House r He had risen only to protest against such navel and uricon 7 gitutional doctrines, in order that it, might not be suPposed,.'if . they were . suffered to pass ,unnOticea, that they were assented to in that House.. Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE, appealed to-the SPE*KER, whether it was consistent with the fonts 411 t1praaice of the House to receive a Petition against any procteding not immediately ender consid'eratiori . Of the House. . . . ri4e P,E,A as he had, been-appealed to, felt 4 iraself bound- to declare, that tie,,liad al w;iys under- 7 Stood, and collet fronilife - PrOceedingi 'of that .1 9use, that; they, opened their ,doors wide for !re eeitiingr 'the . refitiOrt - s" of' all his Majesty's Snbjeas, vehet het' 'with re4-peet - to' gfieabees feat or appre and..:thatitln: only indispeasible. requisite in t Petition, to iniale it to the y cilvikration of that riouse, Was;:tlai it should be couched in language tot offensive:' - • ~..Lord,HOWlCK,agreed in..-ttke sentiments of the tlonourablo Gentleman opposite,ANreiS, Bourne), alld entirely concurred in the dpalrine laid down by t he that a . 'Petition fivin'the subjja was en titled to:the attention of that . House r frovided it w as 110 t icpuclwd in o#eusi ve, language. The language of Allis Petition seemed not to be of that description, for the l'aition(ii-s hni - nbtysubmitted that they appre- Ilended the • proceedings would be subversive,of the Ilights of ,Ele4ors. They should •not construe too technically the letter of the Petition. After . a eitplanation from Mr. Herbert, 'tile vetitiori'kvasordered to lie on the table. - - ARMY ESTIMATES. After some converiation relative to the expediency of delay, the Report was brought up by Mr. Hob- house. Sir JAWS PU.LTENEY would have been bet ter pleased if the debate had been put off to a more . convenient time. The author of the new measures for recruiting the army had; expe6ted no -great -im mediate benefit from them ; but dertainly .he must have expthed some immediate 'benefit- or he would not Have propOsed them. He had opposed that plan -;'w:tise;.a:wr on the ground that it afforded no prospect of an im mediate supply, but rather menaced a great diminu tion. He .was also very apprehensive that it woad create a difficulty in kBeping Up the numbers of the regular army. The Returns 'pan the table proved there was no increase in this year. The Additiontl Force Bill, which had been repealed, would have mak a considerable increase to the army, and the army must have been imptoved if that. .0. had co;;- tinned. He asked if the preset]; time was nothia Was not that to be of eEted at the present mom which was acknowledged to be at all titne:,t desiratile ? It was no great recommendation of the new ppl;u to say,,it had not yet produced any bad effed.. He.lmd supported the Training Bill last year, in the Atka that it would be carried into execution. If it was likely to produce good effects, it ought to be exe cuted; if it was not, it ought not to be stnfered to remain a mere.dead letter, but ought to be repealed. The enemy was npw at a distance, but it was ho. possible to say, thaf he might not be soon, by.A peace, or by other events, at liberty to return and renew his menaces of assault upouns ; it was there.; fore of the utmost impOrtance that we should not be unprepared. With respell to the Volunteers, it was said, ,the numbers of their establishment ,remained, the same. • But they did not pay the same attention to duty and discipline, and theretbre they had fallen , off. Sir JOHN DOYLE thoUght it would hare been more satisfiiclory if the debate had been put off ; but the argument forthe adjournment came' with an ill grace from the Hon. Gentleman' who rirged it. - When speeches of three hours Were'made if;;liinst- time, in which every thing but time seemed to be remember- ed ; it was rather' awkward for those who had beeri guilty of such a Waste of time to ask for an extension of it: 'The Hon. Baronet who had began this debate had represented the'necessity of baving - an adequate army, as the enemy may return upon us. agreed in the justice of this policy; but he w:l4 rather surprised:that the Additional Force Mt wai mentioned as'a proper measure fOr'carrying it into effeet. That Mt had done every thing but what it professed. - Its inefficacy was eicused'at first, on the ground that'-it was not Under Stood. It had been' 18, months nriproduaive, and •when at the end of thdt time it waS deMOlished by the 'present Ministers, uie were told it was-just going to be produ&ive. But i was 'contended that it may be 'amended.. There wa a story of oneof our Poets, - Who . was Very' mtkch . dei formed, and who al ways 'used to say, ' God mend me,' to whom a persOn said one `day, on his using NS ejaculation, it would he'easie'r to fornrtwenty new ones., than to mend such a MASS of deformity as he presented." As to its going to be productive jiist when it was repealed, that reminded him-of anothei story. A priest's maid, who was - very idle, had a habit of always saying - when she was asked to-Ci any thing, E I am going •to do but being asked one day by her master if she had washed his bOoki and papers ? She answered—' I am going to-do -it, Sir,' which-shewed how little solidity there was her promise-of maim; any more than there was the activity of the Additional 'Force Mt. The as: section of the efficiency of the Act, reminded hitn of the story of the Duke of Wharton's 'puppies, wh6 never saw till they. were going to be drowned. This Measure of- the Additional Force was intended to act as an ally to the Regular Army : ' but unhappily it acted like the French, and cut off the resources of those it meant to RroteEt.. He complained here that the recruiting at bead-quarters was not inl• chided - in the present •account :it had been included last year upon a representation less fair : the'.very means had been designed to produce a good income - Without racking the • tenant. The measures now under discussion had, however, done more;: for they had given a good. supply in hand—for lie was sure - they would in a short time till up all the deficiencie l s between the estimates and the effectives. The Right Hon. Secretary had not acted so well - towards; his measures as his measures had done towards him'. The measures .‘Vere riot 'carried into execution so early Is they might have been. - He allowed there might have been some impediments 'to the execu tion : he would not advert to that diverging calca lation of the Noble Lord, which 'represented the measure as likely ,A 6 overwhelm the *country with the enormous burthens - which it would:create in its progress. The' reasoning' of the Noble' Lord against it wanted• nothing bta data. If the Noble Lord would-visit the truckle...bed of the 'sick at Chelsea or Kilmainham; of men` who had spent the prime of their lives in the service of their country, he would, perhapS, have imbibed other feelings than those which induced him - to support such measures as were calculated to dismiss the soldier, after having passed his life in the service of hiS coui.try, as to bring his grey hairs with sorrow to the grave. He ought to Make,an apology to the Hon. Gentlemen above him- for speaking these sentiments at their side of the House (the Opposition). He might be suspended of coming among them as a spy, to observe the nakedness of theland. His be= ing on 'this side of the 'House Was Merely 'acel , dental. There was' reason to , think that th e Ho.' pourable Gentlemen were . here, •,becauSe'' they could not , get good places on the other 'side.— He was sorry to observe so great a ,want of that unanimity which Was now more than ever to .be wished tbr. He allowed that opposition was or . advantage, as a check' upon the existing Govern 7 ment, and in proportion as the - talents of the . oppo sition were great, so much more effeLital must that: check be. The talents of the present opposition being beyond any thing beforeknown, it was, there fore desirable, with a view to the permanency, of so complete a check, that the Hon. Gentlemen now in opposition should remain so as - long as pos;\ble: He would recommend to the opposition Gentlemen;, a principle contained in the NegOtiation Papers-on the table. Let them say to the Hon. Gentlethan opposite, in the language of M. Talleyrand, Nous 71,e twus denuozdoits nen ; we. ask' nothing from you - (A loud laugh.)--He did not mean to f6llow the . Noble Lerd through the whole of his speech. He would not follow him, through his animadversiont upon the Training Bill, Which did not belong to this subject.' There was one other sub j(4l . which the Noble 'Lord had touched, and 'which solittle longed to the present subjea,that'a might haveteen Omitted. ThiS was the condu& of the Negotiator. There was no part of the conduit or measures of his Majesty's 'Ministers that gained them so much credit. The pr6position originated Vith Fr:II,CC file Negotiation commenced under auspices the most propitious. At the bead of the Foreign De .