The Sun. — London, England, 1802-05-06 00:00:00

II I . I. is 1 - Ad.jourrieti at $ o3clock. 110 USE OF COMItiON,; WEDNESDAY, MAY 5. ~~~ Lord IRE.IVPILLE spoke in explanation, prin_ cipahy with a reference to the former part of the Noble and Learned Lord's address. He expressed his regret that any thing 'which had fallen from ,him could al ke the least impression upon his Noble and Learned Friend, that he in the least,intended to wound his feelings. There was no man for whom he entertained-a higher respea and friendship. Lod AUCKLAND observed, that in all Trea ties, It was well known, some concessions must be made, and great allowance should be made for the situation of a Negotiator. .With respet to the Articles of the Treaty in question, he confessed, that neither the expressions nor the substance of it pleased him. There was something degrading and ungenerous in the wording of the Articles. He felt some consolation from the opinion of the Noble Marquis, that the stipulations - would be fulfilled in regard to-the separate Treaty—he certainly deemed it a null and void ad. 'The Article in the Defini tive Treaty spoke expressly of adequate compen sation ; and he believed, there could be no doubt, but that the Prince of Orange's Family would be compensated. He spoke of the nature of the pro perty possessed by the House-of Orange, of a va riety of circumstances respelling that illustrious House, and instances' of its attachment- to this .Country, to which he was enabled cOrredly to speak, by reason of a four 'year's residence in Holland. Marqu;; CORN,IVALLIS shortly reminded the House that the security . of the Prince was under the stipulations of a solemn Treaty. Lord PELHAM took occasion to remind the House, that the Motion 'being considered as. with drawn, there Was no question regularly before the House. His Lordship spoke in explanation of some observations which had been made last night re speding the situation of the House of ORANGP, which was not held to be:so advanragcons as could be wished, but at the same time not deemed a suf. ficient ground for continuing the. War. • The Eai-1 of CARLISLE said a few words in explanation. Lord HOLLAND said it would•be unnecessary .to lay the separate Treaty before the House, even were it in the power of Ministers :—it was an agreement made• between Holland and France only, a.-;d in favour of the former. The Stadtholder was only a servant of the Republic of the United Provinces, and his claims were not in general to be considered as a .family. estate. He deprecated what- had been said of the effeCl of 'opinions delivered in that 'House. He thought it could have little influence with respe&,to ,the European Powers, and it would go very little either to fix the charaeler of Bonaparte, or to in fluence his designs. The allusion was unfair and unconstitutional, And he •cduld not abitain from delivering his opinions fully and freely ; to carry the principle to its full extent, would be to extinguish discussion altogether. Lord HOBART observed, that no Lord could be so absurd as to suppose that such observations could deter any Peer from declaring his sentiments. What be had urged upon that,head-on a former night, was not with a view to check discussion, but to state what he believed to be the fact, that no such preten sions were entertained or started throughout the discussion, and that therefore his opinion was, that such claims, if they were preferred, must arise from the language held in the way he had alluded His Lordship then proceeded to the consideration of Some points conneCted with the Negotiations at Lisle, and remarked, that the places adverted to by the Noble Lords opposite, were not given up to us in consequence of the Prince of Orange's letters, but merely conquests on our part ; and that at the period he had mentioned, the Indemnities 'to the Prince of Orange were suffered to rest on the good faith of the French DireCtory._ _ Lord GRENVILLE conceiving himself pressing ly called upon, by a part of what fell from the No ble Secretary of State, spoke at some length, and with his usual ability in explanation, which, how ever, related more to the Negotiations at Lisle the former and probable •future claims of France with respel to the East Indian Question, than to the point. more particularly under the considera tion of their Lordships, , Lord HoBAR-r, the Loßo CHANCELLOR, and Lord .G4:ENVILLE 3 eeverally stoke in further ex ' planation. Earl SPENCER commented upon that Article of the Treaty which related to the Indemnity to the Prince pt . Orange, whic;l he said had given him the greatest pain when he read it, and whiCh he said must, he was 'sure, have impressed every Other Per on with similar sensations. The Ea;-1 of ROSLIN said, it'wouid be a painful though perhaps a necessary duty for him to declare his Sentiments upon many of the Articles of the Treaty. At present, however, he should abstain 'from any' discussion of that nature ; he only rose to beAr tes timony, if it was necessary, that' his Noble Friend (Lord GR ENVJLLE) had never swerved in any degree from the principles contained in the Projct of the Treaty of Lisle, , The LOR D explaineu. Lord CARLISLE then withdrew his motion. Lord HOLLAND wished to postpone the Motion he had given 'notice of for to-morrow till Mon ,. aJY • '1" Lordom Fish. Market ' , dill was read a first. time. Capt, CDC 11R AN tOGiC the Oaths and his Scat. Mr. D "I brought up a Bill to amend 4a of the 34th t eurge II I. relative to the Oaths *administered to Voters at Elections, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a secoLd time on Friday. Mr. FOVI'Eft presented a Petition, stating an irregularity in the previous Proceedings relative to the Stigo Paving Bill, which producer' a short conversation between Mr. 01-1 A R Mr. FosTr.a, and ?dr. M. A.. TA vma, when the Petition was ordered to be referred to a Com:nittee, to whoinilso eras referred the Report of the former Committee relative to the J3ill. A Message from the Lords informed the House, their A.ordships had agreed to several • - Certain Accounts were presented from the Trustees 'of Ramsgate Harbour, which were ordered to lie on the Table. The Election Treating Bill was read vthird time, and pass: 4. Mr. N. NSITTA presented certain Accounts of Ex penditurc,, wlu4h wercurdrred to lie 011 the Table. ARMY. The•SEerrAgy at IvA;( presented the Army Es timates f cr Or,e Month, horn the 25th of May to the 24th of June, . . r Wlti‘.4l V..VIC Mitred to he 011 the Titbit, >f The SECRETARY at WAR: said, that Army Service's had been voted only for two months, -which' would expire on the zsth of May, as would also the Mutiny Bill, which had been passed for the same period. It had been found impraaicabie to prepare, in time, the Estimates for . the service of ,the year, it had therefore bee n deemed expedient to present them for one month,' and it was propos ed to vote the Army Services for that period, /upon the same footing as ,the last vote for two months, and likewise to continue the Mutiny Bill for the same time. He hoped that long before the expiration of,that month, he should be able to lay before the House the t ENtimates for the service of the year, and to propose the Mutiny Bill for the usual time. If the House had no objeEtion, he should propose to vote these EstiMates in the Corn mittee of Supply on Monday. DEFINITIVE TREATY. Mr. IV. ELIOT said, he did not think it ne. cessary to trespass much upon the time of the House, as from the frank and candid avowal made by ,His Majesty's Ministers on a former occasion, he could entertain no doubt that they would be perfedly willing to facilitate the acquisition of whatever in formation might be necessary for the discussion aid elucidation of that important sulied, the Definitive Treaty. The first document which he should move for would be the Treaty of Badajos between Por tugal and Spain. There were two Treaties of Badajos, the one between France and Portugal, which was not ratified, and the other between Portugal and Spain, which was ratified, and by which the important TOIVii and Fortress of Olivenza was ceded to Spain. On this he should make no further remark, than that it was a great infringement of the territory of Portugal. His second motion would be for any Conventions or Treaties of Armistice or Peace, which had been signed between Portugal and Spain in the year r8o1,• and communicated to His Ma jesty's Ministers. There was reason to suppose, that one of those Treaties had formed th e b as i s o f a considerable cession to France of the territory of Portugal, namely, of P ortuguese Guiana. This territory had been considered by Portugal as of the utmost importance, not on account of its fertility, though it was far from being barren—not on ac count of its commercial value, though it was far from being unprofitable, but as being the only se curity against the attacks of France upon the valua ble, though vulnerable Colony of Brazil. The im portance attached by.-Portugal to the possession of Guiana was proved by the Treaty of Lubec in 1713, to which Great Britain was the guarantee, by which France was not only prevented from tip proaching this'territory, but even from trading at the mouth of the river Amazons. It would.be re colleded, that by the sixth article of the Pre liminary Treaty, the territorial possessions of Portugal were to be preserved entire : two days, however, before the Signature of that Treaty, and when it could not be known by us at the time it was signed, ; a Treaty was concluded at Madrid between Portugal and France, by which the. terri-• tory of France was.extended. to the Northern Bank of the river Amazons. This naturally excited public curiosity, and several questions were put to the Noble Lord (HAwicEssu ay) upon the subje,d, who appeared at first somewhat embarrassed, but after some days the Noble Lord gave an answer, and referred to the integrity of Portugal as settled by the Spanish Treaty of Badajos which had then been ratified. It was then that a new construdion of the word entire was introduced, by which it appeared that it meant all that France had chosen to give up. The Treaty of Badajos between France and Portugal was not then ratified, but after the signature of the Preliminary Treaty; the French Papers, announced the ratification of that Treaty, by which France had completely gained her objeft, as by the 7th Article of the Definitive Treaty, the boundary of the French territory in Guiana was fixed on the Southern Bank of the river Arawara, of the navigation of which she had obtained pos session. This river was but a small distance from the river Amazons, all the commerce of which it was in the power of Fiance to control, whilst all the wealth of South America opened to her view. Whether she might be inclined to 'avail herself of these ,advantages was little to the' purpose ; that Power which, pending a•Negotiation, had seized upon one of the most fertile territories in Italy,. would not be induced to stop at the door of the Brazils, by any impulse of moderation. When possessed ,of the .Brazils; all the wealth of Peru was open to their attack, and thus had they accomplished what th e y had been anxious. ly endeavouring to obtain four years since.,—By another part of the 7th Article, the integrity of the territory 'of her Most Faithful 'Majesty was maintained as it existed before the War. It was painful to see the dignity of this Country so de graded as that she should be made to assert and to contradid that assertion in the same ad, He had now to follow the progress of French power to North America,which led him to his third objed, to move for a Copy of any Treaty concluded between France and Spain, and communicated to His Ma jesty's Ministers previcus , to the Signature of the Preliminary Treaty. Several weeks after the Sig nature of the Preliminary Treaty, there came out another Treaty, (France dealt in these masked Con ventions); referring to another Treaty', by which Louisiana was ceded to 'ranee. This was a large and fertile trad, which reached nearly, to Mexico, there being only the same distance between them as from the boundaries of Northumberland to the Me tropolis. They had heard much of credit and con fidence, but here was a Bank on which France would not fail to draw, and they might long .rue the effeds ,of this accession to her power.— It gave her the means of annoying our Colonies from the proximity of Louisiana ';o Illinois, from which Canada was at no great distance, and it also gave them the command of the Mississippi. Ame rica had obtained from Spain the. priVilege Of navi gating that River; now that the dominion of it was transferred to 'France, Amerita would be de pendent. upoo,fier, and =Pr stipulate with France for the privilege of navigating the River, ;t was highly probable that France wopld - pot rant that pritilege, without stipulating fOr commercial advan, tages in return ; it was probible that s he w ou ld not grant that privilege without drawing . America iato that system of hostility which she had determined 'to piirsue against this Country. He did not know whether he might venture to . mention .the British Flag, but there was atime when the Honour of our Flag was not among the least of our dignities: now we were taught to hold it in little estitnation, and now we were told, that when a great inroad was made in the heart of Europe, the Powers of Europe were not to be roused to take notice of it. It might be said, that all he had predicted was visionary, and that France was not likely to make those ,conqucsts which he had• pointed out ; hut when they looked at the conduit of France during the whole of the War, when they observed her subjugating Holland, annexing to her dominions the Netherlands, , a great part of Germany a n d Italy, and making a conquest of Switzerland, and when they recolleaed that the expedition to Egypt was considered as a visionary projec'l, it would be found no visionary speculation, that France might -reduce, both American Spain and Portugal, and render them as subservient, to her will as she bad Slab and Portugal in Europe. The cession of Louisiana to France had totally changed the Preliminary Treaty, and he believed if Gen tlemen had known of that cession at the rime they . discussed the Treaty, they would 'have paused fore they had given.it their sanaion. He did not charge-His Majesty's Ministers with deceiving the House, but they should have endeavoured to make themselves acquainted with the circumstance, 'and if they knew of the cession of Louisiana between the signature of the Preli;ninary and the Definitive. Treaty, they were bound to remonstrate upon the subjeCl, and lay all Treaties relative to it which had been communicated to them upon the Table:of the House.. He concluded by molting his first Mo tion— " That an Humble Address should be presented to His Majesty, praying that 1-I's Majesty, would be graciously pleased to give direCtions that there be laid, before the House a Copy of the Treaty of Badajos, referred to in the 7th Article of the Definitive Treaty of Peace." Lord HAWKESBURY said, he did not know whether he should be warranted in going into a discussion of the observations made by the Hon. Gentleman, as the Hon. Gentleman had pursued the mtist unusual .and extraordinary course ever adopted in that House upon subjetfts of that nature, and he defied any Gentleman to state an instance io which any fadion had pursued a more extraordinary. line of condut than that adopted ; by the Hon. Gentleman on this occasion. They had frequently had disciissions on Armaments and Wars, and the regular method had, been for Gentlemen to state an intention of bringing forward that discussion on a certain day, to move in the mean time for such infornr.tion as they might deem necessary to the elucidation of the subject, and to confine themselves in that minion to the necessity of the information in question. The. Hon. Gentleman had adop;ed quite a different method, and it was very true, that an Hon. Member, making a motion, might say any thing which had the least relation, to the motion, whilst those who followed him, as had lappenecl in other places, were liable. to be called to Order if they commented upon his observations. He did not mean to enter in' any degree at length into the ar. guments of the Hon. Gentleman; but should merely make a. few observations., on two Or three points. The Hon. Gentleman had, on a former oceasinn, expressed his_surprise chat an'article should be dif ferent in the Definitive to what it was in the Pre liminary - Deny. .this article related to the in tegrity of Portugal, 'and several Gentlemen had asked, on a former occasion, whether that integrity referred to the situation of Portugal before the War, or to some subsequent Treaty he then stated, that the integrity of that country was understood to be founded upon the Treaty of Badajos e concluded between Spain and Portugal, by which the Town and District of Olivenza was ceded to Spain, and the River Arawara made the boundary of the. Por tuguese dominions in Guiana.. He should have thought This answer would have been sufficient : ques tions however upon the subj e d were still pressed with the utmost solicitude. In the mean time, the Treaty of Madrid was concluJed, by which it was stated; that the boundary of Portugal was altered. He should not now go at length' into . the subjea, but should merely state, that the boundary fixed by the Treaty of Madrid was not the boundary esta blished by the Definitive Treaty, and that as to the Treaty of Madrid, His Majesty's Ministers were not accountable for its provisions. . He could not help noticing the imputation thrown out against this Country, of deserting Portugal in the hour of its danger. Portugal asked assistance of this Country at a period when it was not possible to afford that assistance. Two objects then called upon His Majesty's Governthent for support, and it was thought better to employ the forces of Great 'Bri tain in the recovery of Egypt, than in the defence of Portugal—he was not 'arguing the wisdom. of this decision, but it was thought better to employ the forces of this Country in one powerful Expedi. tion than in two weak attempts ; the whole of our disposeable force was therefore sent to Egypt, and nothing. was left for the defence of Portugal. Por tugal, under these circumstance's made two applicae lions to His Majesty's Government, the one, whe ther we would release her from her engagements with this Country, and allow her to conclude , a separate Treaty of Peace, even to the exclusion of British Vessels from her Ports—the other, whether the Government of this Conntry would afford her pecuniary assistance. His Majesty's GovernMent replied, 'that although unable to assist Portugal, they would release her from her_ engagements, and allow her to conclude a separate Treaty of Peace ; they went farther than this, they allowed Portugal to enter„ioto stipulations so adverse to this Country as to, exclude British Shipping from her Ports, and they proposed to. Parliament a vote of Subsidy for Portugal, to enable her to make the best conditions she could. Under these circumstances was there any one who would state that if Portugal had made her Peace, this Country was now called upon to endeavour -to recover any of the possessions which Portugal tight have chosen .to cede to France by that Treaty ? With respell to the Motion, he should endeavour to'save the time of the Houseby making a few observations tiled upon all the three objects proposed by the Hon. Gentleman, As to the Treaty ofßadajos, lie had no objedion to its prauftion. With reset to the econdpropositioniforCopies of all I Conventions or Treaties of Armistice or Ouiec , " eluded between France and Portugal, in the year 180 1 ! communicated to His Majesty, he had no ohjeaiu..oo- provided it was confined to the 'Dreary of Madrid,' With resped to the Other part of the Motion , it was impossible to comply with it, for the transattions it. referred to never were. compleat transactions, were neverpUblished, concerns, to which we were no P ar. ty, and whatever knowledge His NilajotY'sG uverli a d it corm . merit could have,• they could only, have dentially, and purely so,. and therefore could not -be communicated-. It might be said to _that in honour or regularity they had no powers which, , reason he , should And it his duty to resist this part of the Motion of the Ho:rourable Gentleman, ; but if' the Honourable Gentleman would. alter t e n. Motion to which he alluded,- and confine it to the. Treaty of Peace concluded at Madrid, he should have no objedion. With regaid to the third. IVIO - which was -for an Address to His MNies t Yl and for a copy of the Treaty between France an , i Spain, relative to the. cessions made by Spa t ' to France before' the Preliminaries of Pe ace v , be such fora : between France and us, he could only ' a t ', (and the Honourable Gentleman was at liberty: to make what use he pleased of the faa in a p rg i , - ; ~ment), that . no official communication was `', i e , made to His Majesty's Government upon that , jet. Having stated thus much upon these Moil °fl i e s it was not his intention to deviate from the Pi a . an gswwle:hprniiuecclrihtial was,he w, which he had several times referred to/ and which th e wished e a d b s o ra t i h n e r fr G o ienn tallle l o o n u ly est a i l o h n ide w t h o ic o h ne w o a b s se t r t n ) t b i e cin di ma set d is e se o d n ; other side of the House, that the Honour of r the he British Nation was tarnished, or impaired , 01. - s o spirit of the people broken down : this, he ‘- ( ; a 1 i n far from assenting to, that there ways no peri7 r :e a .. the History, not only of this Country,but °l v ig World, in which the Honour of the British' „i c was higher; nor the Spirit of the British "h e re m o c b u ser to viit f ro j n i°swin'i greater (which would soon be seen if there `' en e cause to bring it into adion) than at the Pr' i f , es ift t e i r o . n w l o n u t T e c ni om e : ri t: i e n, f i o e re he th , : , moment. It was not now the time to argue r , ly ch l e ie g re n i could nor regularly argue it), that in poin r , ° „ f ur r in commercial strength, there never was a" ' l- e ., ( 1 which the relative situation of. Great Britain e nt greater advantage over France than at the P h ri h a hour. That there never was a period in r p ,, lc v er Peace was concluded, when the Commercial ' 1 :: to of Great Britain was so relatively super.°- o H u o lt i ra c ss l e 'r r (n . e l that of France as at the }resent 1 1 101i1emif. e . This was a point which was to bediscus'sed h er , after, and he was, perfeetly .ready for that.diseur sion—he could, by the Riles of t h e H,, u se . , " n t y be allowed to ass,!rt• it now.- He need n ot sa'' flow far our Naval Glory, in this War, transcended curry thing that ever _went before it. How far these -a( ' vantages, these : instances of 'riational superior i 'r er i were .to considered,' as counteraded by b circumstances, if at all so czunuiratted, another question, and that was a-question als" l° ,a,, decided hereafter; he - would, at present, -only sfid he 'was perfectly ready to niaintain, by a f r ° l l,a merit, that we had extricated ourselves opt ° ,,„aer contest in which we had been enaged, a . ri a ithi, that manifested ;in adherence to perfect'} km? ",,, e 0! and in a manner which proved that the larig u T a stte those .who said our Faith .was deserted, r- 11 , c ,i o ur .of our Fl a g tarn i s h e d, o ur Ch ara it er Spirit sunk, was language coMpleatly ou ftnin and the reverse of truth • hal" Dr. LAWRENCE thc right to demand every explan ation from s o ) n. as they held their pla c es by the tenure Of gasi°' ?JP S eta lit, He' then - adverted to the particular co n now called for, and was proceeding to enlorgitive .the general question of the merits of'ihe Treaty, when he wasc ailed to Order by The SPEAKER, who observed, t hat ;t a s. usual to debate on a Q ue sti on , a f ter it bad b e e.° sented to. sor t,' Mr. THOMAS GP.ENVILLE said, he wa s , l „ l ir• to differ from any opinion delivered from the 01;-• but as the three questions relating to time sar n ` . C o , jet had been moved, he thotight it . ext r e rnelY e ,on sistent with the pradice of the House, to a r g c them colledively. I . o l ' Mr. GREY said, it was a new doerine 1( ?,!-, that the assent of any Member, however Office, to -any Motion, should preclude all 4 quent discussion on it. o r! The CHANCELLOR of the EZCHEQ,C I4 1-0"' much agreed with what had been said by w e dor ti ; Gentleman (Mr. GREY) . who had just sat a ttic but wished t h e H ouse to cons id er whether th e te which the Learned Gentleman had been ti.rg in ~der 1 1 • spefting the non.renewal of Treaties, coo I .„,,tiort the most liberal construCtion apply to the , (1 ? or , .for producing any of the three Papers Dr. LAWRENCE .said, that by enteri P • s ol oo the subjea at large, it was his intention WI ce to b c that the situation of the Country require' -gin minutely inquired i n to, whe n -it was now I'l a ov o., a situation so diff e rent from what it forme rl y it a of rained, and Wilco it was deprived the of the secur 'lO4 all former Treaties. He then adverted to from ; • of the Treaty which relates to Portugal eo die' which he inferred, th a t t hi s Country had b e _ iat ion s graced by a sh a m e f u l de r eliction of the stilw" Jibe made by the Preliminary Treaty, in favo4 r All till s integrity of the P or t ugues e territories. I : 3 oen - Was owing to the inexperience; or want n eav iog tion, on the part of our Negotiators, eo the out the words " before the War." Nel I rdS P ct French afterwards ref us ed to have these (11° e s tua' in, a subterfuge w as f oun d by inserting t/ I , fre atY' tiomof Portugal after some other separa re i f o r. t he With regard to the condition stipula(ei,y of Dutch Republic, he observed, that tine ~o the our Flag had been surrendered, as far al t h a til le s power of His Majestiy's Ministers ; a"u „war r e t Sea .. last symbol of our ancient sovereignty had been given up. thou ht ti e Mr. JONES said,iti that if he had vadej, honour of our Flag had really be en coors fro m should have followed a very difretent Oct what he intended to do on the present ois Mss iog he should have moved the , House. to br `kith r.l jesty's Ministers 'to condign punishment. - 1 00soli teas- . Bard to the Papers moved for, he htd ! , Lor a of " argument for their precivainn.