The Sun. — London, England, 1802-11-25 00:00:00

lAIPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF PEERS, WEDNESDAY) NOV. 24. A Meeting took place at two o'clock this day, previous to Their Lordships presenting their Address to His Majesty. The Marquis of Sn Lissuity informed their Lordships that it was His Majesty's pleasure to receive their Address this day at three o'clock. A variety of arrangements were made relative to the hear ing of Scotch Appeals ; and some proceedings respecting private business took place. Lord Vis Count IsletsoN, who seconded the Address, and a few Peers attended. At about half after two, the LORD CHANCELLOR and the Peers - present, having previously adjourned till to-morrow, proceeded in State to St. James's, with the Address of the I-louse to His Majesty. HOUSE OF COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, NOV. 24.. A Petition was presented by Sir Wm. LEMON, on behalf of the Prisoners confined for Debt, in the County Prison of Cornwall. Ordered to be laid on the Table. Several Petitions were presented on behalf of cer. tain Maltsters of Wellington, in the County of Salop, and Tewksbury, in Gloucestershire, and Bridgnorth, &c. and other places, complaining of certain hardships, which they alledged they feel in consequence of some Provisions of a late Aft of Par liameot, passed for the purpose of regulating their trade.—Ordered to be laid on the Table. Some other private Petitions being received, the House proceeded on the business of EleEtion Peti tions, when Nine were presented, which were or. dered to be taken into consideration, in the follow ing order. Great Grimsby, 9th December next. Penryn, loth January, Royal Burgh of Strauraer, 26th January. Nottingham, t4th December. Barnstaple, 16th December. Chippenham, two Petitions, 27th January. Carmarthensh►re, Ist February. Coventry, zest December. Bridgewater, z3d December. Mr. TRENCH then brought up the Report of the Address on the King's Speech ; which was read. On the question fbr the second reading, Mr. WILBERFORCE said, he was desirous of taking the earliest opportunity he could of deliver ing a few observations on the very important sub_ jets now before the House, the more especially, as certain sentiments of his had been alluded to by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. CANNING) on the preceding night. The sentiment which he had uttered at the time alluded to, which was that of the discussion of the Definitive Treaty, and they might perhaps have been rather lightly uttered, were such, however, as he was ready to avow. — The Address seemed to him, to speak the language which it was proper for the House to hold, for it w , :s not right to push matters to extremity with re gard to Continental Affairs : there was a pro priety in saying, on the part of His Majesty, that we should keep our eyes on the Affairs of the Con tinent, and be ready to take such measures as cir cumstances .may require—and that was properly assented to in the Address. If any thing gave suspicion to him in this matter, it was an allusion to the standing Policy of this Country, which, upon, a eArecut and atten:ive perusal of the matter, and much refieftion, he had formed an opinion upon which he was not likely, on a sudden to abandon. It. was this, That that House and this Country had been far too forward to engage in War, and Conti nental Connections : to enter into engagements, the full extent of which we could not foresee, and many of which had been, to the highest degree injurious to this Country, having wasted much of its blood and treasure, and that without procuring in return, the least benefit to us.—Therefore, if he were to take the Speech in the spirit of a Special Pleader, he- should doubt how far the words of it, or the Address upon the subjea of the Policy he alluded to was right ; but, in a general sense, he had no difficulty in expressing his approbation of the sentiments it contained. But it had been said, that he had uttered, on a former occasion, a senti • rnent purporting that, in no circumstances ought this Country to form any Continental Conflation-- a sentiment which he never did utter, nor did he believe he ever should utter it, for it was going to . an extreme which he never approved ; it being his persuasion that almost all good policy lay between extreme points on either side, as most virtue was said to be in a medium ; but he had no difficulty in saying, that under the present circumstances of this Country, it would be wise in us to pause before we renewed any Continental Alliance or Con nexion ; for if the experience of the last ten years had not made us at least diffident upon these pro_ .jetts, it must have been most unhappily thrown away. He hoped, therefore, we should, in the language of the Address, keep our eyes on what was going forward. Our interests were deeply implicated in this matter. It was indeed desirable that se should prevent France by land, as well as by sea, from extending her power ; but then we were to look to expediency, and not depend on any speculations of Statesmen. Need he say any thing on the shortsightedness of men. How had the greatest, and the wisest of men, been deceived in their conjefture ! Hos,v had their speculations been turned into foolishness Indeed some of the most profound Politicians had overlooked things which men of the plainest, and almost meanest capacities, bad foreseen. There was something in the nature of the study of a profound Politician, which led him sometimes into errors, which men of a nar rower capacity escaped; and here he was led to re member and reflect on a very splendid and eloquent speech which his Noble Friend (Lord flAwicEs slimy) made in that House, and which could not be too much admired, as it gave earnest of those' great talents which had since been exercised in the bervice of his Country, and which had been so great an ornament, as well as guide to the Debates f that House ; he could not help, however, r‘;‘,- fieding on the miscarriages which may attend the schemes of all those who are accustomed to a great chain of political combinations in their thoughts and sentiments. The speech, of his Noble Friend, although he most unaffdledly admired the know ledge it displayed, as well as brilliancy, on the oc casion to which he alluded, naturally occurred to him, when he was considering or human foresight, especially on the events likely to arise out of the policy of States. The truth of the matter was this t Politicians calculated on the continuance of the ope ration of certain causes, and a given numbet of events ; when one of these events happening to be altered, the whole combination was at an end, and with it, of course, all the reasoning that was built upon such combination. Nay, the whole systeni built upon such a combination, might be. reversed by one event. The whole state of a great number of things might be altered by a single event :—so that after a great deal of Speculation and Political sagacity, we had discovered that all the 'trouble we had taken, might have been very well spared, and the Country have saved vast quantities of blood and treasure. The cost might have been well employed in the improvement, instead of the destruction, of mankind. He illustrated this by adverting to the circumstances at the Peace of Utrecht, 'of which the danger at one time so much apprehended, shift_ "ed, at once, by a single accident, and changed the whole complexion of political affairs, as they re garded the House of Austria, Spain, and France, and .which, from threatening all Europe with the horrors of War, produced a Peace fur thirty years, in which we were united with France for five years. Whether any policy might again unite us, he could not say, but that was min-impossible. Upon these topics there was abundant matter for discussion, to chew how little was to be depended upon human calculation in the affairs of States, and how much was the mere effect of accident, that was to say, up_ on events which human foresight could not penetrate. These were considerations which ought to make us cautious in relying on the advantages of Continental Conneaions, which might depend on a combination of numerous events. It had been said of him, that he had uttered a sentiment which had about it perhaps some unseasonablesmerriment, nor was it totally without its sober sadness. The phrase that conveyed the sentiment he alluded to was this—" That the People of this Country are too honest to have much to do with Continental Connections." His Right Honourable Friend, (Mr. CANNING) who had animadverted on that expression, ought to have made some allowance for his situation. He had occasion to go home- to his Constituents and to address them on the subject of their pressure, for such must be the effect of every War to such a class as his Constituents, and particularly in the last War. He therefore ought to have some indulgence in speaking as the Representative of such a class of persons as his Constituents were. It was not unreasonable to say that we wanted to recruit our strength, which was much wasted both in blood and treasure, and there fore, if he made use of an odd expression it was not matter of great blame. But the truth of the matter was this ; he had no apology to make for the ex_ . pression which had been so quoted and animad verted upon, and he was so far from making any apology for the assertion, that he was now about to repeat aod affirm it ; and it was a sentence to which he called the attention of the House, and particularly that of His Majesty's Ministers. He said again, that the People of this Country are too honest to have much to do with Continental Con neftions. He said this because we are alWays faithful to our engagements, they almost always faitniess to us ; at least always so when it appears to them to suit their interests—for it was part of the general System of the Policy of the Continent to pay no attention to Political Engagements when it is in the least degree convenient to neglect them. Of the truth of this there were many instances ; a striking one was, that of the Pragmatic Sanaion, in which, in the course of 'a few years, every Power engaged in it de serted its engagement, England alone excepted. As to the last three we had had with F ranee, to use the strong . language of another person, the ink which recorded these engagements was hardly dry when they meditated a breach of them. In a word, the principle on the Continent seemed to be, that of paying no attention to political en_ gagements for a moment longer than an observance of them was convenient. Seeing this, and feeling the effea of it, he would ask, whether it was too much to say, that the People of England ought to be cautious in the engagements which they enter into ? We certainly ought to be cautious in these things, for we must keep our engagements whether they be convenient 05. not, whatever others may do with theirs. He was unwilling to say any thing concerning the last War ; but he entreated the House to consider what was likely to be the result of a Confederacy with any of the Powers which we had already been engaged with. We had been en gaged in as powerful a Confederacy as ever was formed, and upon a subject as interesting as ever was contemplated - by any State ; and on the part of some of the Confederates, the ties of consan guinity were added to those of general policy ; for Austria had family motives in the Confederacy. Russia, Prussia, Spain, Sardinia, and indeed every Power in Europe had at some time or other be - longed to this great Confederacy. But how did it happen ? Did not every one of these Powers get out of the Confederacy as soon, or, as it were, steal out of it.; nor could it he otherwise, while they were ailing on different views, so different, that some of them were more afraid of 'each other than they were of the Enemy they had united to oppose. In 1797, was not the Court of Vienna in duced to quit us ? How did that Court behave to_ Wards us upon that occasion ? Did it discover any extraordinary fidelity towards this Country ? Did they give us a polite intimation upon that occasion of what they were about to do ? No such thing. We could not know for many months, what the Treaty was between it and France. It was lodged in the breast of the Austrian -Cabi ' net; but when it came our, there w.as no wonder it was so long concealed, for it disclosed the utmost perfidy with regard to us. So with regard to the German Indemnities, no regard was paid to any en gagements with us. From all this Continental Po licy of Faithlessness, we had . only to determine to embark no .further than - we can see our way. He then took a view of the injustice, with which the claims of inferior Powers had been totally disregard. ed in the system of Indemnities, which he censured as a base and profligate system of policy ; and pass_ . ei from that subjel to another, which was the Treaty lately entered into between France and Turkey. One of the stipulations of which was, that France should grantee the Integrity of Turkey, for all time to come. He had heard it said, that among the alterations which the . French had introduced, that of changing the mean ing of words was one, so that now, No may be made to mean Yes, and Yes No. So that when the French say, they will guarantee the Integrity of the Turk ish Empire for all time, • they.mean, they. will give away part to any Power they please, upon having an equivalent, and that they will keep the remain_ der themselves. Such was the nature of the. en- . gagements they made with States ; yet we must ob serve ours if we made any. At the time when the •1: last great Confederacy was formed in the late War, there appeared to be as much reason for observing it as there ever was for observing any Confederacy, yet the moment it appeared convenient to them, they , abandoned it, one by one. Prussia, indeed, a voSved. itself in a manly manner ; the rest abandoned, • but not so openly. There was no wonder in the aban donment of the Confederates, for the truth was, that each of the Confederates had some subordinate object more at heart, than the great and general objea, and if that subordinate objcml could be gained, the great and general °Ned was given up—So that, in faet, the great and general object of Confederacy against the common foe, was the pretext for an affeCted Union, whereas, in fad, each of the Confederates had an object of his own, and that gained, every thing was at an end.—Having illustrated this head of his Speech, by reference to events in the I fistory of the last War, he proceded to observe on the proba ble effed of the New Confederacy, and expressed an apprehension that it might be dissolved, as far as regarded Austria or Russia, by the granting, by France, for an equivalent of course, to either, but particularly to Russia, a certain part of Turkey— but by giving part to the one, and part to the other, both might become hostile to us-.--We had seen that once already, in the course of the last War—nor was a projed like this unlikely to enter the head of a Russian Statesman—nor was it Unlikely that the Parties should ad upon it. What then should we do ? Take care not to form any Engagement, unless for present Adions Not to form any Connedion that was to be of distant Execution by Powers, the good faith of whom we had reason to be diffident of. Not to enter into a Combination we have reason to ap_ prebend may he dissolved without - any regard to our . Interests, and that we had reason to be diffident of. He called on the House to infer from the experience of the last fourteen years of Continental Affairs in particular.• As to the reason why Turkey had not been partitioned out long ago, he quoted the autho rity of Montesquieu, that it had not yet appeared to be the Interest of France to do so. He• then rook a view of the Partition of Poland, which, .he said, exhibited the most disgusting scene that was ever exhibited in the Annals of the World, in ancient or modern days, which he made use of to shew how little reliance could be placed in the Declarations of States. He then proceeded to take a view of the policy which it was the real Interest of this Coun try to pursue, and differed totally from the senti ments which had been expressed by Mr. WIND HAM, upon that subject—That Right Hon. Gentle man had declared that, upon a full view of our situ- . ation, War appeared to him to be the better course of the two. Now he would ask what we could ex, pee/ from War,—( Hear ! Hear! Pow Mr. Fox). —Mr. WILBERFORCE continued, and observed, that in the last War we had taken all that was Likeable, if he might he allowed the expression. And what could we do but take again what we had agreed to give up ? And what should we be the better if another Peace was agreed within fifty miles of Vienna, or at the Capital ? What could we get by prolonging the War ? What could we hope more than to he put into the situation in which we were at the conclusion of the 'Peace ? That was the best side of the pidure : but suppose we were to try the worst—Were the People of this Country so ready to burst with. prosperity as to he eager for War? Or did it appear on a calm view of our situation, that a War was necessary- for us at this motnent ?—He apprehended not, and he could not help thinking, that were it not for some immove. able prejudice of Mr. WINDHAM, a man of his en larged understanding, could not see political events and affairs in the light he did. Before we were engaged again in War, we. should look at our Revenue, and see that it be improved ; we should look the whole of our situation in the face—look at, and provide against all our dangers ; attend to the dearest interest of our Country; but we should consider wherein that interest consists, Let us re member, that dear as are our Army and Navy, our Revenue, our Trade, and our. Commerce, and all our Resources, that yet above all our Army, above all our Navy—that was to say, above all our Soldiers —aye, and above all our Sailors too—obove all our Commerce, and above all our Wealth, and the pre paration which that wealth enabled us to make, there was one more important than all the rest to a free Country, and that was the disposition of the People, that was, it was inure important to a State than all the other advantages •put together, that its Government should possess the hearts of/he People.—[Hear ! Hear ! Hear ! from sorne parts of the House.] Aye, hear, and feel the force of it, said Mr. Wit. BERFORCI : but he begged leave to warn Ministers against the possible event of cre ating a clamour , for War, by exciting the resent ment of the People, against some - detestable ads of tyranny, in another-Power, and of taking advan tage of it, to involve the Country in a War; the effects of which, when the People, began to reflect, would be dismal. He recommended this sentiment to Mr. WINDHAM, and still more to Ministers.— He intreated that they would, as far as possible, in. form the People of their• situation ; give a right feeling of their danger; observing, that if they hurried on the People to War, without this caution, they would deserve the severest censure, and, he had almost said, the execration of their Countrymen. He thought that Ministers aded on the true policy of this Country,by endeavouring to restore to it the blessings of Peace.. He trusted they would continue to at on the same principle. He hoped they would turn their thoughts to all.species of Internal Improvements, to (Economy, to the Reformation of Abuses, to the improvement of the Education of Youth, as the best wax to improve Morals, to the Redress of 411 spQ. eies of Grievances, as the Lest wriv contincettube attachment of the whole People to that CO W ce tion and State of things, that rendered us a t °° 3 the -Envy and the Admiration of the whole w°l' t and marked us out as a People enjoying the grea te ep Blessing it had yet pleased Providence to bestow uas Mankind—a Government, under which LibertY enjoyed, and Property protected, and all the C° ,'" e ; forts of Human Life better secured, than any Age or Country had vet felt. With all these BiO c i sings, and with all this Power to preserve than an t sense to enjoy them, he could.not help wishing• tr li we might try the advantages of Peace, a nd av a . ourselves of them, and shun all indefinite Con t i nental ConneCtions. Above all, to enter no engagements hastily or precipitate ) }' , the ground of any supposed readiness. in the Fehi l f for hostility, on account of some recent instanc e ' . flagrant injustice, He wished rather triat the se nt r meats of the middle class of Society, who, gen er '' i " i j speaking, were the best informed, and who h''t and who felt an immediate .and direa identity ° , l interest with the Public at large--a class of ' D i % whose opinion, although never negleaed in Lountry , had not perhaps all the weight it cleserve'; lie concluded with observing, that if this CO was .taken by Government, we should have nOtl" °b ' to fear from the enormous size of the French I ,public, although now with the annexation of Fir; Mont, the Italian Republic, Helvetia' and Hall an he What if they were fifty millions of men—did t "1 constitute the strength of the Chief Coosa' ° • France ? Rather his weakness, if left to : the n ' selves, for multitudes of them must hate the system by which they are become aubjea to their pres e/ e , yoke—Time, •therefore, would remove all arr,„;" pension, in this respeft. It was natural to exl e l'. that if this unwieldy mass was left to itsrlf--it wou l Y in time, change its condition—it could not be oth er r wise, for moral causes were certain of their - ° 5 feds, whereas the effect of human policy was alv°,4/ uncertain. The way to produce.the dissolution °. this mighty Power; was to leave It:to its Ol e course. 'Use way to unite it, was; to attack it 1) ( t ! hostile force. The first and immediate effect w`' Dust: be, that of raising a force, by Requisition of D u c and Money, throughout the whole . of -thoSe •Obe''.• tcri'•i"t'ories.one . — Our policyWas - t d at i watchful and cautious, with regard to others with resped to ourselves, industrious in the Impo nt ' , 17 ment of all our Resources. It was upon the sC neral sentiments that he assented to the Addre s h '-;ei General GASCOY NE, referring to wha t m og been said on a former night respeeiing the flourl s c. " o - 0 . stare - of the-Revenue, the Manufaaures, tO meree of this Country, said, Eliot he was Wl: l' l,k hear so ftvourable an account from so r espeN l ti c and intelligent a quarter (Mr. A:6DisiOr-ota) 0` ed Revenues and Manufaftures ; but he a ppreher l ;, there might be some mistake imthe representa tt . e given of cur Commercial Prosperity. That deSei l l o f clots' did not apply 'to the most important branc li be • all, he meant the West India Nand's. Since Conclusion of Peace, apressUre had fallen with Ve1.1., severity on the Carrying Trade particularly, w ili e r diminished it at this. time one third of its for ts ra value. Of this, however, he would say no suv• at present,as he should have a statement on tha t 'e jet to lay before them in the course of the n- „id week. He admitted, , that though nothing''' ‘ ° var be more to be reprobated than to commence• for the.interest of Manufaaurers or Merchant'' i ay thing could justify a War but its being nec es : t he for the Public Safety ; and he was certain th 3 1 to manufailurers and people in trade were toa.lit' e-, I da tie wish for such a thing ; and that they hai l . 00 3- nothing to afford a just ground for such an in si a nd tion. He hoped, however, that the languag e feel spirit shewn in this debate, would manifest dif i e,aln ings of the Country., and deter the First Coast" of - the prosecution his designs. inc ej • Mr. ELLIOT said, nothing should. have l ' ll - se atf• him to obtrude himself upon their notice at P re en or but the alarming crisis in which he felt the C ° ' re st s . to be involved, and before which all other i" te- d faded away from the attention. Our near e , t of e 2c clearest interests were at stake. It behove" jolte' a Land-owners seriously to consider if thei r an tances were not in danger ; and Manufaftute I•iao r',,, to Merchants to reflea whether they were per; enjoy in security the fruits of their industrYt never was a period which more imperionslY 00 0 for the deepest deliberations of all persons to ld stir public trusts were committed. They sl w li it' the danger to the bottom ; they had to .sel' re . ot ot guage it, and exhibit it in every possible P O ll t ilts vittoe, and in all its bearings and relations: •coo'. they were loudly called upon to do, that the. oo , to try should be prepared to proportion its exer u ft oe o the extent of its ( a inger, nd meet it with th e 0 s beoi of its force. it would enable and induce aS t ot ed!, the Enemy that we were far irons being exha oun that our resources were still, and would b e o se ss always equal to our wants, and that we still. e acP that greatest of ail resources. in times of (..'gccio' a firm, Undaunted, generous, and persevering as f.051.' rage. This led hiin to advert, as shortly ble, to the events that happened withi n the sioa ot interval of a few months, since the ,last Parliament. That short period, however, e ' ro e s to us a very awful lesson. What was the P o OV 5r ; of France within that period ? We saw Sratiatopire thrown, Kingdoms swept away, whole F t ov er:: fall in ruins before it, end all the Cootinen to 1 whelmed in a Revolution as dangerous i on• eta opinion, as would be an internal conY6' oit, was impossible to look at the map with? beh ur, o ver ing with terror Kingdoms and States " tire y l r Y d rr-i iic : away, and added to the mass of French ag . ment. We have there to lament the rota , po p ,. ce y of once happy Sovereignties and Starc' e , fo n . transferred to (life:trent countries, and th on e 05" 5 30 tions of all Governments s hAken to the i rthe oe der the auspices of one ereCted on q^he I (Order' 00 111 depredations . of Property and tr , s he ' culiar marks of hostility against t his coon ilonneni'e4 by France were to be seen the, a sa ali° the Ally made of the German Empire ; tvill ot t net ora elves co-operation on the pirt An.tri:l, En t° oors o nte 3 ' of Great- Britain on the Coo tio ,`• ent• - CO 7. 3 111 in particular, so far from maleing.,tr'coreilt-idalloni tifin of this proceeding to the King - e Ol e e' reol oY , c t he Avho was himself a Sovereian 4-3 p CI • riCe °' nd a 'lee ° • ' therefore, as an Ally of Austri A t "', C 4.• Empire, interested in. the arr,ing -------- _,----'