The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-25 00:00:00

in compliance with the forms of that House, to pre . . 1 sent etitions for similar aids, the Petitioners had done every thing they - could to satisfy the House, and Lad only neglet'Acd those forms with which they were unbacquainted. It was for the House to consider whether they would grant an indulgence to those Petitioners by receiving the Petitions, which would not be so great an indulgence on the part of the House, if they were disposed to dispense with the Order in this instance, as they had last year granted these Aids without any Petition whatever. The objet of the Order he knew was important, that Parties concerned might know their interests would not be affeded it Petitions involving their Rights were not presented within a certain time. Ti - ,e Ruie had, however . , been dis_ pensed with in some instances, whereas in the case 'of these Petitions, no•objeaion could arise from the rights of other individuals being affected.. He was unwilling to suggest any thing upon the sub jea, but; from a feeling. of what was due to that pail of the 'United Kingdom, he was disposed to move '' That leave should be given to present, on or before the 3;# of Petitions relative to the Tvl'isce - lianeous Services of Ireland, wilieh had been usually providett for by the Parliament of Ireland, without any• Petition relative to the same.", W. : .E11 7 01? 1) wished to know whether any inconvenience would result from delaying the voting of - the sums wanted for these services in Mr. CORRY said, that a considerable inconveni ence would arise,• it the voting of the Supplies for Ireland was postponed for any considerable time. The Services to which these Petitions related, had been considered as Public in Ireland, whilst here the - ,t , were considered as Private. He thought the 03 . &r :night be dispensed with in the present in st‘arree, ,b no inconvenience could result from it to atilqiisdividul, and he trusted that the House would that enough had been done on the part ofit!±: oners, to prove their readiness to com ply the desire of the House. ,fOBSON tad, that sums of money for these :r v iccs had been before granted, without any Pe tition whatever. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, i,t was then understood that Petitions were in future to be presented. The Motion "of the CFIANCELLOR of the COEQUER ER was agreed to. Mr. CORBY then presented the following Peti tions for the Aid of Parliament, With Hts MA JESTY'S recommendation, which were severally or dered to lie the Table. A Petition from the Governors of the House of Industry in Dublin, an Institution which had, Mr Celtics; said, been prodaetive of Use most extensive utility throughout the Kingdom of Ireland, and which had occasionally relieved persons train this Kingdom. A Petition trom the Governors of the Foundling Hospital in Dublin. A Petition from the Hibernian Marine Society of Dublin. A Petition from the Governors and Guardians of the Hi_ bernian School for Soldiers' Children. A Petition from the Governors and Governesses of the Fe male Orphan House. A Petition from the Association for dicountenancing Vice, and promoting the Knowktige l'ra:lice of the Christian A Petition from the Governors of the Penitentiary House. A Petition from the Directors of the Westmorlsiad Lock Hospital. A Petition frOm the Hospital for the recovery of Persons in contagious Fevers. A Pertiion from the Dist,lin .3ni:iety, for the promotion of Husbandry, and other : Arts. A Petition froin the Trustees of the Roman Catholic Se minary at Maynuoth. A Petition from the Corporation for paving, cleansing, aud lighting the City of Dublin.. 'On the questiOn for bringing up thii Petition, Mr.' ROBSON said, he thought the sooner he objected to this Petition the better, as it was cal ling upon this Country to pay ahe parochial rates of the City of Dublin. He considered the Board esta. Wished ,for the purpose of paving, cleansing, and lighting the City of Dublin, as a mere 'job, and that Parliament had nothing to do with its support. If,' however, Parliament had any thing to do with it, he was - well informed, that the City of Dublin might be paved,.cleansed, and lighted, for 12,0001. less than the sum which was at present employed for that purpose. The SPEAKER submitted to the Hon. Member, that though he had in stridness a right to make these observations, whether it would not be More convenient if he reserved them fur another stage of the business, Mr. ROBSON said, his reason for making those observations was, that Gentlemen Might come pre pared upon the subjea. The Petition was then brought up.—On the question that it should lie on the Table, Mr. JUNES said, the assertion of his Hon. Friend (Mr, RosSoN'ii that the paving, cleansing, and lighting of the City of Dublin, , might be done for '2,0031. les than it was at present, was of con siderable importance, as it stood uncontradieted. Mr, ALEXANPER said, it was a most extra ordinary argumen', that because an assertion made by an Hon . .Alember was not contradided, it was to be taken as true. The assertions made by the 'Hon. Member (Mr.RoasoN) tended to defeat their Own obje t}. The SPEAKER suggested that the argument was -not then perfectly regular. Mr. ALEXANDER said, he only wished to araue, that an assertion was not to be taken as true because it . %Vas ' not contraditied. He need not state the reason why the assertion made by the Hon.,Gentleman (Mr'. Rousoat) was not, contra dieted', but it was not necessary at all times to con ttadia. assertions. Mr. VANSITTART observed, that the lion. 'Gentleman (Mr. Roasox) had said, that the paving, cleansing, and lighting of the city of Dublin, might be done for t z,OOOl. less than it was at present. The sum voted for this purpose in the last Session was, he believed, t z,0601. according to . the Hon. Gentleman, therefore, if it could be done for 12,065:, less, the city oil Dublin might be paved, 'cleansed, and lighted for nothing at all. Mr. RoasoN explained.' , Lord DE BLAQUJERE submitted whether it was becoming in an Hon. Gentleman to call that a Job which had been Sametioned by the Purliathent of Ireland. • The Petition Wa's then ordered to lie oh the Table Mr. CORRY said, in order that the House should be in possepsion of every possible information upon the subjte - t, he should for the Etitnate of the expellees of the different Institutions mention ed in the Petitions. He concluded by moving for an Estimate relative to the Protestant Schools. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested the propriety of Esaviog the time of the House, by making one Motion, which should in clude all th:. Estimates. - Mr. CORRY acceded to this suggestion, and moved for Estimates of the expenses of the Insti tutions mentioned in the several Petitions, for one year, from the sth of-January 1802, to the sth of January rBo3.—Ordered. Mr. CORRY shortly afterwards presented these Estimates—which were ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. CORKY moved for an Estimate of the ex pences of the Trustees of the Linen Manufadure of Ireland from the sth of January 18oz, to the sth of January 180 3.—Ordered. MreCoaity presented an Account, pursuant to Aa of Parliament,' fiom the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt of Ireland—which was ordered to lie on the Table. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve it self into a Committee of the whole House, to con sider further of a Supply to be granted to Hrs ESTY.—The Order being read, he moved, that the Disposition Paper of last year, an Account presented of the deficiency of . the Convoy Duty, and'also an 'Account presented by the CHANCELLOR of the Ex- Car EQU ER, &c. be laid before the Committee; which being ordered, and the House having resolved itself into a Committee according to Motion, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he rose, pursuant to the notice he had given on A former day, to move certain Resolutions in the . Committee of Supply, to provide for certain branches of the Public Expenditure, under the head of Miscellaneous' Services not provided for. In the first place, he had to call the attention of the Com mittee to the sum necessary to defray the IntereSt on Exchequer Bills funded in the course of the last year, the whole amount of which Interest was 5e0,5201. 95. id. to pay off the Interest on Exche quer Bills, of which he should hereafter state the particula4. The next article was that of the Sala ries and incidental Expenses of the Commissioners acting under the .Aa of Parliament for the Reduction of the National Debt, which amounted to the sum of 2,8651. iss. It would appear to,the Committee there was a considerable excess in this article upon that of the Vote of last year., but that arose from the last Vote having been only for half a year, and this was to provide for that deficiency. Another article was for the purchase of a third part of the Duke of Richmond's Annuity of 19,0001. in pur suance of an Aft of Parliament, which passed three years ago, empowering the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury to advance to his grace an equi valent for one-third of the value of' the Grant made to the Doke of Richmond in the time of King Charles 11., and the Act provided that this should be done within six months after notice given for that purpose. The next article was an allowance to the Officers of the Exchequer for their extra ordinary trouble in making out Exchequer Bills, &c. and the sum proposed was the usual sum, the amount of which was 5001. Another article was 4.0,5141. 83. 7d., to the Bank of EoglantL for discount, prompt payment, &c. on the Loan and Lottery for d a year r Sot. There was an addi tional expellee on draWing the Lottery, of 55001, and some other expences, the whole amount of which appeared in the Distribution Paper on the Table. There were some other points to be stated to the Committee. The sum necessary to pay off Exchequer Bills issued by virtue of several Ads of Parliament of the' 39th, 4oth, and 4.lst of Geo. 111. c. 23 ; these Exchequer Bills were in possession of the Bank, the loan of which had been advanced by the Bank in the year 1798. The amount was three millions. The Bank renewed the Loan annually, and fresh Exchequer •Bills were issued as fhe former were paid off. It was necessary, at any rate, to make provision for them according to the pradice of former years ; but, in the event of a Definitive Peace, he trussed it would , not be necessary to re new the application to the Bank in this particular, as had been done for the last four years. The next article which he had to submit to the Committee was, that of an indemnification to .my Lord ST. VINCENT and my Lord GREY, on account of a decree pronounced against them in our Court of Admiralty, for the deten tion of certain American ships, &c. at Marti nique, &c. The Committee would recoiled that some time ago an Order in Council took place, di recting that all Ships whatever trading to France, should be captured by our Ships of War, wheneVer they could come up with them. Lord Sr. ViN. CENT and Lord GREY (pitted this Country under this At of Council, and when they arrived in the West Indies,' they declared them in .a state of blockade as to Ships bound to France, and wider the Order of the British Government, they seized all American Vessels bound for France. In the year 5794, the system of policy with regard to America was changed—A Treaty was entered into between Great Britain and America, and a restitu tion was ordered to be made of the .American Pro petty thus seized ; and where that Was impossible, it was ordered that a compensation should be made. Applications were made \by those Subjects of the United States, whose property was thui taken, to our Courts of Admiralty for the recovery of their Ships, or of the value of the pEOperiy thus taken ; .and decrees were made in favour of these Claimants, and these proceedings were confirmed by the au thority of -Parliament. In this situation of things, applications were made by those WhO conceived themselves aggrieved, to the Lords of the Treasury, and they referred the matter to the King's Praetor to make . his Report. That Gentlernan considered the subjed, and made his Report upon it ; his Let ter was now . on the Table of that House. The Committee tiMuld perceive the necessity of saving harmless these two gallant Officers, who aded in the ser‘,'iee of their Country, and under the Order of -its 'Government. The sum proposed for this purpose was 45,3321. 175. 6d. This was a claim not only on the•liberality, hut also on the justice of this Country, and he had the pleasure to observe, that no further demand was likely:to be made in this particular, The next article vitas- teat of the Pe. ficieney in the Produce of the Duty on Goods im ported for the year 18ot. The Committee would observe, that on the signing of the Preliminaries of Peace, a doubt was entertained, whether this Duty was or was-not to he imposed any further, it, being contended by the Merchants, 0 wners of Ships, and those on whom the duty attached, that the opera --tion of the Mt by which the Duty was imposed, ceased on the signing of the Preliminaries of the Peace. This matter was referred to the Law Of ficers of the Crown, and they determined, no doubt justly, that the operation of the Aft ceased on the Signature of the Preliminaries ; in consequence of which there was a Deficiency, for which a sum should be voted to the amount of 410,0001. and he had the pleasure to say, that although this Duty ceased on the conclusion of a Treaty of Peace, yet this measure, after undergoing such modification as might be ne cessary to suit the convenience of Merchants, might be brought forward, and that, he understood, with a concurrence on the part of the Merchants, which did them the highest honour,—He had nothing to add except that of expressing his readi ness to explain any - thing_ which might appear ne cessary to any Member of the Committee.—He then moved, " That it is the opinion of this Com mittee, that a sum not exceeding 550,5201. 9s. id. be granted to His MAJESTY, to pay off Interest due on certain Exchequer Bills, issued by virtue of the authority of certain Aals- of the 39th, 4.oth, and I.ist of his present Majesty, &c."—But before the Resolution was pur, he would just observe, that he had another proposition to submit to the Com mittee, which would be for the sum of 1,400,0001. on account of the Bounty on the Importation of Corn ; but as the account waslaid on the Table this day only, he did not think himself jtistified . in moving it now, for it was proper that tiftie:b - hotly be . allowed to Gentlemen to consider it, • •, . . . . The Resolution was then put. Mr. TONES expressed his approbation of parts of the Speech of the CIIANC :LLoit of the ExcHr. QUER, which appeared to him, he said, to look to. wards Peace ; but he considered the subjed oflx chequer Bills as one that would require the atten.. tion of Parliament.—They were issued now almost as readily as Bank Notes. He should like to know what the account was of the profit and loss on these Bills ; there must he a good deal of it, they. being sometimes at a premium and sometimes. at a dis count. The sum granted to the Puke of Rica.' NioNp was done in the spirit of accommodation, about which he would say nothing. As to the sum proposed to be voted to the Noble Earl (ST. VIN CENT), and the Noble Lord (GREY), he had no ob jedion ; but he apprehended there were others who had equal claims to the favour of Parliament. He thought there were some Accounts wanting, accord ing to the notice of the CHANcELLOR of the Ex. CHEQUER, that ought to have been on the Table. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that all the Accounts to which his notice referred . were upon the Table, and justified his former ob servation on this subjed, As to the subje of the advance of the Bank, what he said was, whether that was to be renewed or not ; at all events, there should be a Provision now, in the same manner as had been made for the last four years : but in the event of the return of Peace, he hoped the continuance Of this VPte would not he necessary.--With regard to the else of the Earl ST. VINCENT and my Lord GREY, the Honourable Gentleman seemed to consider it ;:s an aa of favour to them. The Committee would not understand him as so stating it, nor was he stating it as an aft of libera,lity on the part of Parliament—it was a claim on belk.lf of those gallant and meritotioqs Officers on the justice of their Country, to save them from expellees fOr having acted in obedience to the commands of Government. It was, there fore, not an aa of generosity, 'out of justice. He concluded with expressing a hope that the Hon. Gentleman would do him the justice to acknowledge he was accurate in the statement he made on the Papers on the Table. Mr. JONES acknowledged the bey was right in that respett, and begged to be understood, as casting no reflection whatever on either of the two Noble Officers who were to be indemnified by the Committee ; no man living, had a higher re gard than himself, for the Noble Earl at the heal of the Admiralty. It was proper, these, Officers should have a return of the Expence of these Cap tures. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that there again the Hon. Gentleman mistook the matter. This was' not a Vote proposed to defray the Expenccs . of Earl Si'. VINCENT and my Loxd GREY, ho: to indemnity them for losses they would have sustained by the aCis they did in the Service of their Country, and in obedience to the Order in Council of the Executive Government, and as such, a claim of justice. Dr. L 41FRENCE gave an account of the issu ing the Order in Council for the capture of all Ves. sels bound to the Enemy's Ports, &c. but observed, that the revocation of that Order took place in Jan. 1794; and he contended, that the Order of revo cation was knoivn to these Noble Persons before the detention ceased, and no condemnation took place at the suit of these gallant Officers. Restitution had been ordered ina great many cases, of which he gave an account ; and observed, that in cases where these Commanders had not received any Prize-money, indemnification was an aa of justice. But if they should not be called on to restore any thing which they might have' received, and were nevertheless to be indemnified, that was not to be called a mere ail of justice.L—He did not say that any thing was done by these Noble Persons that did not proceed from necessity ; yet he thought the Committee might do well to pause before they voted the whole of thii sum at once, as a matter of course. He inclined to think that some inquiry into the circumstances of this case ought to precede this Vote.—if, upon inquiry, it should appear, that every thing done in this case was necessary, it would he proper to come to this Vote ; bat he did not think it a mere matter of course. • Mr. N. I'ANSLTTART said, the. Learned Gen tleman might, perhaps, be satisfied to hear that the whole of the Receipts of my Lord Sr. VINCENT, and my Lord GREY, had been paid up by them, as arkeared by the Report of the King's Prato', and . . o . that they owed no balance to any person w hom. ever. The Resolution was then put and carried . The sum of 28651. was voted to defray the Ex- peaces, &c. of the Commissioners for t h e Keduc -. Lion of the National Debt. On proposing - the Vote to the Annuity of the Duke of - Richmond, in lieu' of King Charles the Duty on Coals, &c. granted .by the Second, Mr. ROBSON observed that this..w_as a ve r c favourable compliance on the art, of the Lords the Treasury, with the request of the Duke 01 RICHMOND, granting him -a large sun: of moneY , i when it was wanted for the Public Service, whereas ray off the third off he ought to have been made to stay for his muneY u ; whatever it might be eventually right that he sho Ld have. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE said, that as to the compliance of the LordsQVthile Treasury, th e fad was, that they atc.ted under the compulsion of an Ad of Parliament in this case. Mr. STEELE said, he observed the Hon. Ge,,. sleman had proved on this, as Almost on„every 9"ic...* SubjeCt,' his total and consummate ignorariee 0; what he was speaking. He 'took the Vote I proposed, as if it were granting asum o f MoneY 4 virtue of an ad of grace and favour .to the D uke. ,; RICHMOND, because - the Duke wanted-the 01 : tie li This was a total misrepresentation of the "PC" - t h a it was not in the way ,of favour or of graeeii.' w t he Duke--of-R-reAtmo-ND, nor - was it becau se rne3 :, Duke- wanted - '"the Money .: but it was a ,`" Far , sure proposed in pursuance of a n Ad °L„ ori ., liament, which- empowered the 'Duke to - CO '. ly , Government for that sum .and which sum, was til3i'op; 19,0001. in lien of 21, 0001 . which he.had g i " - , 0 1, , to the ' Publie..,-He might have received ;' ,° "„ r i , but, he consented to take 19,pool.—The Tre as i ", , s , had made the contra with him * the At of t i r - pt, ment had empowered him to make such contr; and, on sir Monthi notice to be given bY c o t Duke, the. Lords of the Treasury were'b °l/ ,, 0 , to enter into that contras : he had. given tO i t ;di tice, and therefore no option was left'in ~the.44rA , p c oi . the Treasury. This contras took.Plaee i° t y:IE gust 1799, between the Lords of the - lreaSufribi' his Grace : in - tBco the Contra 4 was confirm so d Government : 'in iBot a redemption took plo cc ' n .0 the Lcrds of the Treasury had no :di co t y tilt exercise upon the subjeft ; they were bound the the Ad ; and if .the non. Gentleman had t4oie".,,itli trouble to look at the Ad, a nd to - read it e - sse ,. attention, he would have foUnd this to b e the -- It Was owing to the consummate ignetWic e ° f fi s.A Hon. Gentleman that such an obsovation . Made by him.--.( Here there ri.4 re tome mg.rr if o o f —MI:,. St:ELE proceeded.—He co nceived Y e ir eci regalar in saying these things, because it aPP e cs.' to him to be abs3ilutely,necessary ; for the obse"iti'' don of the Hon. Gentleman meant, (if i t In t he J .- any thing, to make an impression, E n t, Up? l , l /I '4 Committee, and then upon the rulgic, as if i-,_ . ; did been an improvident bargain entered into bYO,,, Lords of the Treasury with the Duke of P o r a f: MOND ; whereas it was no such thing. ; A t 0 100, prudent on the part of Go - vernrn ent, at/''' cit 00, derate on the part of his Grace, and Su dI V ! the Lords of the TeeasUry were bourgl.t°, c , ° ,.. - 1 - , 11 0 with, by the Act of parii„rrien,. to, wii.- - o f already 41luded. He thoUght it necess'rY. tc ',clet, this, ro prevent any false 'impression being u' e t o, in consequence of the observation -s made b e z , t f°r ,nes-, Committe. He said this , with full . coriw,i.- he because he had full knOtsile:lie of the stibr‘" L be being one of the Trustees fo r the Duke, und-crojog authority o'o4 Aa, and he could not help ca inS the attention. of the Committee to the subje 6l 'oen' refuting the injurious assertions of the 11°n ' tleman. a orne h i Mr. ROBSON th9ght himself,- unhan - m s an to treated, and beggitdthe Sight Hon. cent le ; o u o ''' recall his words. ' Ile called for the RrWei'a the House.— C°° #. Mr. ALEXANDER., (the. Chairman of th e $Oll , mittee) said, that-if he had thought the It ig h i r , - Il e Gentleman, (Mr. Steele)- - hadbeen disor der S th should have interfered, bu t he '4ad cons o „ t ical ° CO impute to a . Member iinOranee of a I" . subjeCt in Debate, was not gtilar. ho our UP. Mr. ROBSON said, he thot!glii it an - -a be censured in that House b y a PlaCeMall• ant Mr. STEELE said, he should not ret r it 3 e 10 4 thing he said of the Hon. Merriber' . Who, s l )° ,.' via and as to the honour he talketfo' f, that °' 0 V censured by him, it was an honntir l l ikelg often conferred on him. The Resolution was then put and carrieClP.,a:, The following Resolutions were then v9,'... a For extra trouble to the Officers of Excheciecr,. t o o °. in making out Exchequer Bills - - 'ir'' g . a To the Bank of England for discount for proMPt - e gt 4 .. T payment on Loans, Lottery of iSol, &c. 45,`"'. ' A the Bank also, an allowance for receiving a 3 0 . 4%,. 3 &c. ",. money on Loans, - - For incidental expences, &c, attending the. 1,50 _ a t, Lottery for !Sot - - For paying off and discharging Exchequer 0 Bills, made out by virtue of several Acts of 60,- „ c o ° -3 , Parliament, &c. for iSot - For indeinnification,'Scc: to Earl S T .V ltiaLliT and Lord C; a r.y, late Commanders in the West I iidies, on account or proceedingt b against them in Courts of Admiralty on ac - ; i Si 45, Aci. count of Captures, &e - - Mr. ROBSON said, that there were tortshurp; in cient Papers before the House to Jun there sc''.. voting so large a sum, particularly as t' if this above 80001. for Law Charges. Besides! riie Ser', was paid, perhaps other O ffi cers, upon the 1 1 , s alt vice, would also bring forward claiins - i .,.ost iri g this case was similar to the case of Lord ." who had not been indemnified. 0 ti .J ` ', • yr: LEx.- n et,. The CHANCELLOR of are 1 .‘, 1-1 i 1 said, that it the Statements made by b -s el - 3 1-) rren - 4 4 Friend, had been as accurate as theY t' for 0r- •n, were, he should have thought i t ,hisdutY G t ent ieriv t to postpone the Discussion. The Ho°• wer e rt. who spoke last, had a ffi rmed, that sufficient Papers before the House ; b. LI h i s 10 CHANcEt. Loa of the EXCHEQUER) held 1° aest ior• the Memorial from the Noble Lords in a c l or s ta: t here t he (t he and also the Letter of His Majesty's Pr ° e ills M il : t ing, that he had laid the Memorial beib! was' 0 _, jesty's Advocate General, and the result It app t ° the claim appeared to be we ll-founded' ~ a road ~, ed to him, that the Proposition be '',,' in pit' onndeu the Committee, was not only