The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-16 00:00:00

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ThesOrder of the Day being read, for going into a Committee on the Malt Tax Bill, • Earl SPENCER rose and observed, .that on' a former stage 'Of this Bill, he had taken the liberty to offer his sentiments on one or two important points conneEed with the measure, and he had to' return his thanks to the House for the very liberal. indulgence, with which they heard him on That tic , Casion.: In the preTent instance, : 'he rose in obe dience to the paramount calls of duty, and to offer- his opinions more in detail, upon these and Othe't points, which he deemed of the most ~mom entous importance to the Country. But first he should have to advert to what hadiallen from a Noble and Learned Lord on the former/ Debates,. who seemed,.by what he then said, to have entirely • misapprehended his meaning. This misconception may probably be owing . to his own inaccuracy of expression at the time ; but he would now repeat his opinion, that with respea : to the Establishments, be had no objedion, as far as their extent was to be considered, that is, as far as they exceeded Fortner Establishments. ; Such vas not' his ground of oh jeation, and for obvious reasons, as the opinions ite entertained of the - late Treaty of Peace were well known to be unfavourable- to that Measure, on the ground of its probable . want Of permanence,' and its insecurity. With 'Tyra to the Measure more immediately before the House, and the several important *points connealed with it, he had three distini grounds of . objection. First, as to the- manner in which the present Supplies were proposed,. which was different from any former precedent. Se condly, as applicable to the proposed Naval and Mi litary Establishments ; and thirdly, as to the pro bable.use which may be made of the Forces so voted. With resped to the first head of objeCtion, as he had'troubled the House 'rather at * length'therecin in the former debate, heshould not trespass much on their Lordships' attention. After all that had been urged an that point, not only by hithself but, more especially by those with whom he had the honour-to aft ; he had no hopes of being, able to induce Noble Lords oppasiteto him to alter their opinions on that part of the subjea ; however, after • the besCatten don he was able to give to the point, and after the maturest reconsideration, he remained himself of the same opinion with respea to it. He was convinced of its importance, with respea to the regtilaiity and integrity of the proceedings of Parliament, that un less he should hear arguments advanced in the course of this night's Debate to induce him to change his opinion, he should ',deem it his duty to record it on the Journals of. the 'House. With regard to .his second head of objealion, the nature and extent of the establishments voted, the-Noble Earl observed somewhat in detail. The amount of the , respealive forces were he said, for the Land Service i 30,000 men, and for the Naval, fl,ooo. Parliament was without adequate or regular information as to the causes, the necessity, &c. of having establish ments to that extent, they moat therefore con sider them as well as they could, and decide up-" on information from the best quarter they could get it. With respea'to the Land Forces, it had l been, he conceived, voted -on grounds which he knew not well how to describe ; but he conceived it to be done on the idea of the strictest defensive system ; than situation of the Country was such as to re quire a Land Force to that amount, either with a reference to home defence, or for services abroad. —ln regard to this, when he considered the considerable augmentation to the numbers he had mentioned, by the Militia Force, and the Volunteers, he saw no reason to obje& to the Establishment on the, ground of a defensive system. With respea to the constitution and arrangement of this Force, he highly approved of it ; was well direated, and appointed, and the Plan did the highest honour to the illustrious Personage at the head of His Majesty's Land Forces. In regard, to the'Na val Establishment, he regreted that-he could not say as much. He was sorry that the Noble Lord at the head of that Department was absent, but duty called Upon him to state his opinion upon a point of such importance notwithstanding. He by no means thought the Naval adequate to the Land Establish ment. He was aware it had been said, that at a short notice, sixty additional sail of the line could be prepared and brought into service. He was glad to hear 'this, but at the same time was not quite so well convinced of its practicability, and particularly with respea to 'the manning of such a FOtce. It . was asserted that this could be effeaeci in so short a space as a month ; but he knew the nature of manning the Navy too well to entertain such an opinion. That measure was dependent, on such a number of extensive circumstances, some of which .it was entirely out of the power of Gdvernment to control, that he was decided as to its lin praaicability 'within that space. With respea to the third head of the objeiuion, the use which would be made by Ministers of these powers, he had first to observe, that what fell from the Noble Lord on the Woolsack the other night, as to the discre tionary powers vested in Ministers with respea to keeping it, instead of removing, increased his objec tions in a considerable degree. He had always un derstood, that whenever a specific force was voted, there was a Constitutional and implied engagement on the part of the Crown to keep up the stipulated force, and hold it in readiness to at when occasion required —ln this instance, therefore, former precedents were departed from; : and the line of condua j adopted by Ministers with regard to the Establish ments,, strengthened his objedions to the present arrangement. Three times in a former Session did they come .to Parliament with different Estimates of Forces. In June last, particularly, -70,000 men were voted, of which it appeared that 20,000 were_ notiong after disbanded. Sueh a pradice might obtain in the present instance, and consequently no securitycould be had in the discretion of Mi. nisters. The uniform, tenor of the Ministers, at., least since the Peace, made him entertain apprehen sions of that sort. He had no hoitility towards any, and fox some of them he entertained the highest re. cpea e :btit considerations of duty superseded every other. The present 'crisis was such, as that on the con.. duft'of its government, must depend either the ruin or the salvation of the Country ;, andin considering this part of the suisieet, it wa'S in vain to keep out of sight the gigantic power of France. Her ex tended empire, uniform system pf aggression, and. her late-=accessions of territory. • The conduct of that Power, with respect to one - part of the Treaty of Peace, he was of opinion included a breach of stipulation. He meant that relative to the House of Orange, whose real indemnity it was not im probable would be ultimately furnished by this Cou ntry. - He then adverted to. the accession of territory made by the French out of Europe, particularly the region of Louisiana, and it was understood to be in agitation on the part of Holland, to surrender Co, chin to the French. Government. This, he con ceived to be a most important consideration with respect to our Indian empire. Bur, he .had no he sitation to say, that Ministers themselves did not know whit system they were aEting'upon, or what' line of condul it 'would be preferable to pursue..- Of this their conduct respeeting Malta and the. Cape furnished striking instances,:--their orders and coun .ter orders, 'respeding the retention or surrender of these settlenientse and their ConduEt with respea to the conquered Colonies in the West Indies. He how ever begged it to be undetstood, that.he disclaimed the idte, of wishing to•urge Ministers to rush into War. The line of policy he endeavoured to tecom intend, that bf firmness and vigour, was the surest means of asserting the Honour of the Country; and preserving the Blessings of Peace ; but when he. considered the weak, impolitic and wavering con- . duel of Ministers, he could entertain little hopes :in these points of view. On the contrary, had they abed on the truly wise and: energetic system laid down by their predecessorsomd followed it up with vigour and effeEt i he would have supported them with much more spirit and alacrity - than he now felt it necessary to oppose them. The resources of the Nation he was well convinced were perfOly adeqUate to the situation in which it was unfor tunately placed 'by the conditEt of Ministers but then . they must be directed by other hands, and administered by men of superior talents, spirit, . and. abilities, in order to bring them fully into action ; to extricate her from her present difficulties, and to render het once more great and glorious. • A gun may in every respc he capable of perform, ing service, but it must bedireeted by skilful hands I. to, render it efficacious. A. boat or ship.may be in perfect order, but an able Steersman and . expert Mariners were necessary to .render it of service. Upon the whole, and under all the circumstances of the case, he felt it his duty at present to•objea to their Lordships proceeding to the Order of the Day. The Earl ofSUFFOLkobserved, he differed most essentially from many. of the positions adduced by the 'Noble Earl who had just sat down. He had talked much 'of confidence, 'and of the services and superior talents. of the late. Administration, by Whom alone, that Noble Earl, seemed to think, the CoUntry c ou ld be saved.' In'his opinion', much greater confidence had been reposed by Parliament in the late, than in the present Administration, ; and it was to their mis conduet, and their misuse of that confidence, that the present splendid and excessive power of Fran.ce was to be attributed. He could not avoid remarking, that the former illinisters, uniformly set their faces against inquiry,' and were always calling for confi dence. In considering the prominent parts of Elicit conduct, as applicable to the subjeEt before • the House, he was led, into some detailed . observations on particular operations of the late War.. ,He re ferred to some occurrences in. the expedition to the West Indies, under Lords St. Vincent and Grey, and more especially to the enterprizes against St. Domingo, in which, he said, .from 15 to' 'iceooo lives were sacrificed, and, from ts,to zo millions of 'money expended.—He likewise censured the plan of, the Expedition to Holland, but at the same time, he seemed to exempt the Royal Personage invested with the Chief Command on that occasion from any share • of blame.---The ' Expeditions to Egypt he considered as still more culpable, and dwelt parti -cularly on the affair of El-Arisch, in which the Bri tish Officers, he contended, had acted in obedience to orders ; and he wished he had an opportunity of examining Sir Sidney Sniith at the Bar, on those points. When. he considered all those things, he hardly thought the Country could be saved by men, who, while in power, had so cOnduEled themselves. He censured the idea that the Country could be saved by one man, particularly the person alluded to; but he knew those who were capable of direel:. • ing the Affairs of the Country with honour and ad vantage :---however, it was his opinion, that the present Ministers should be fairly tried ; and that they had hitherto done nothing. which should induce the , Honse to withdraw its confidence from them. • The LORD CHANCELLOR quitted the Wool. sack, and observed, that he should not thus early have obtruded himself on the attention of their - Lord', ships, had not something 'fallen in the Debate, per sonally applying to himself; and he was also impelled to come-forward, by the urgent and important nature of the question befofe the House. The question re gularly before their Lordships was, whether they would read the order for going into a Committee to consider of a Bill .of. Supply, which not only went to Zed the Military`sEstablishments, but even the Civil Existence 'of the Country : it was .1. Bill, which in that House had.heen regularly, voted with out opposition, from yeas to year,' and which they would bear in mind, not only regarded .the Naval and Militaiy, but the Civil Establishments qf the Cou ntry. In the course of what had kdlen from the Noble Earl who spoke last, some observations had'-keen made which he felt himself imperiously Called upon to answer. -They regarded that part of the conduct of the late Administration, which related to the mea. sures adopted by them, against those who were endea, vouring, by means of Sedition and Treason, to de.: stroy the Government, and to subvert the Consti tution of the Country. The guilt of 'those mea sures,' if guilty they are, lay as much on his shoulders as on those of any Member of the late Administration ; and he would agree _that their successors may well be deemed weak and void of energy, did they hesitate a momht, in case of necessity, to tread in the steps of their predecessors in that parti c ular, and tempOearuy, •,0 supersede the liberty of the cotultry, in order per manently to secure it ; and should they hesitate u l i ' j on such salutary and saving mea su res, he w" no longer form a part of that Administration ; but the reason they were not resorted to, `v as • simply because they were no t necessary. )de would not follow the Noble-Lords in those po! nts which were irrelevant to the stibjea in discuss lo° l nor, particularly, the last Noble Speaker, through`P, ft the whole cond u of the late Ministry.— Wit regard to them, howe v er, , h e was awa re, that " Q r set of men- could more fully. maintain the bowi e . and preserve the happi n e s s of t h e C ountr y in greater degree than they did ; and he supported them tlir", the whole of thei r Ad m i n i strat i on w i t h a ll his hear"( and soul. He-would put it to the heart and feelings ° l ' , the Noble Earl-who took the l ea d i n t hi s Deb3te', l • the teodencyof his arguments did not amount to this' that they, oughts to refuse their assent to the . Bill °f Supply before them ; not because the Establishine nts to be provided for by it were unnecessary or 0:z-es; sive—pot because the situation of the Country did 0 ` ) obviously, require, them—hu o t because those, in svli" se c hand s t h e i r application was intrusted, could n° make a wi s e use o f t h em ? He had had the lion °.,, of fighting side by side with that great Minister s( j r wi often alluded to ' .in recent Debates, and he t'a l . ri ' t ask, would that great person refuse to as s , e 't, to such a Bill as the present, at a moment circumstances of the of France rende re d it cessary that the country should be, not c easin' with a drawn sword, but in a state Of readiness recur vigorously to defensive measures, should °h. T. condua of the former render it necessary ? Suel. ' would not be the condua of that great man.--An with respea to the insinuations of charges again st His Majesty's present Ministers, the languag. of the person lie alluded to on former occasion' was emphaticalry, that those who urged Addresses ,for the removal of Ministers, should boldly stag the specific causes upon which the proceeding shou l d be founded. Were contrary principles acto upon, the circulation, the vital blood of the Con n ' try would be stopped. If Ministers were to ber e t " moved, let it be on di st i n d an d ex p ress g rounds : an d here his'Lordship having occasion to recur to the con' duet and principles of the, great Minister before 3 l' lulled to, spoke of his character in strains of the warm est eulogium, as one whom the bounty of Pr°vi ,a i dence, with a reference to his transcendant talents aP o virtue, caused not his equal to be born in the courS c r. of centuries. He' knew' that' great and virtuni" Man to be grossly abused and libelled, while tile °b; jea of his measures. was alone the preserva" ° of genuine freedom :--to that . end, he well kne ° :: the .thoughts, of that -person were anxiousli direded. Never - yet did any man more richly (if; serve the applause of the virtuous and the goo" • .Ikecurring then to the subjed s in discussion, t he Noble and Learned Lord observed, that in arguil the question, those in opposition uniformly occuoi' Elie, " vantage ground ;" they ,had referred to ' t he consideration of .Ai,iances, and their effeas, with' out seeming to consider how far that Administran of 'which thos,e Noble Lords so worthily form e a part, was implicated its those measures.- 0 1 'many were signed by the late Noble Secret,,, tt arY7 4 State, and were necessarily di sso l ve d .evere - . 11 " his continuance .in office I The' present -Mini st 7, o had been repeatedly censured for reducing the inila of the Country, but it was not considered that s a st redudion was necessary, and often otie of the 0 1° 0 , desirable 'effeas of Peace.—lt was unnecessary' r i° , to, enter into a vindication of that important P e it sure; he wauldordy, fervently,piay to God, th at ' s may not, as . the Noble Lords had au g ured, O t: hopes and conviaions were oth erw i se ) turn prejudicial.. to the Country ; but, a t any, l9iot the present vote was not to be decid e d by' 1 4rst measure. ' With respea to the Noble Earl's ' o f objeaion, as to the manner in which the pre s 'v Supply was proposed, it was then unnecessary the him to answer it. In regard to his second point , f c ,, details of the Establishments, it was some sati n tion to him, ,that the Noble Earl did not objeci fesa , them on the score of extent. He did not pr° . . b , himself tb' be_ adequately conversant• in those su i r jeas—but he could not refrain from observing ag a i '' , that the Noble Lords took the vantage g rounu' s in not considering these Establishments wit h o f reference to the. Naval and Military facultie s not France ; and in this point of view he doubte d en , they would be found well apportioned and corms is surate to the circumstances and necessities of d s luP Country : and in arguing these points his Lot on , displayed much ability and information; arld, c he eluded with a reservation, that it could not fain'Y said, that the day may not arrive in'which these f or t y v may -be consistently and safely. reiluced. But ' o t the question to be decided on the grounds urg ed 10 ,1 the Noble Earl, it' were 'impossible the Fund s e o r Forces of the Country could be turned to a w is c ol salutary use. If such Were the Noble Earl's t i,er sentiments,lie would put it to.his justice, w ile his Motion should be notolitekted against — ? i be VP' ) of. Supply, but for the removal of Ministers • yrca t such principles he had always aded with the man-before alluded to, with the Noble Lords r 4 selves, and with the ancestor of a Noble Lord 1d the Bench with (IN'e believe the Noble Learned Lord alluded to Lord KE N YON, no t he r present.) With respect to the Peace, a felt important circumstances conneded with it, n e fflo f like an Englishman all over ; : there were , e 0 points conneded with that, . but more c 5 t ly with the present subject, which be sil° ll , % think himself very unworthy of the s ituati‘' n had the honour to hold, if he were weak enous, to enter into a discussion .of the'm a t P re ,:y 'r ifl' —He spoke his sentiments on this IteadY d do r the feelings of a .man• who 'humbly l m l e lej el) those who went before should not have t o "c o uld them with such a derelidion of duty ; tb!X es . , an d aa upon the same great . and leading pr incw they would strive to preserve theiseacc, aind "deavour to save the, country. ianat iong sh Earl SPENCER spoke shortly in e x P ea ppre" and observed that the Noble Lord hinl In' l so r ' • 01e hended the object of his argot - tient, ' w l len o f , posed that it was to suspend thetwgress e o Bill until the present AdminiStration •" " hat effe —if , he should haVe said any eying to it was not his intention to oa ve said eai vl,hat had • The Earl of CARLISLE observed) I/1