The Sun. — London, England, 1862-02-18 00:00:00

to all intents and purposes give the same lien on the estate as if the whole title deeds of the estate had been deposited. If this measure be adopted there will not, therefore, be the smallest difficulty or impediment in the way of such transactions. All that will be done will be tr., supersede and dispense with the mass of useless-, cumbrous, and obscure parchment deeds, and to provide a substitute of the most simple, the most certain, and the most easily accessible character. The whole machinery will be ranged, and every means tried so as, I believe, to leave no room or opening for fraud. The only possibility of danger that I can foresee may possibly be this,:that in the first investigation of title there may, perchance, be some latent right that may not be discovered till after the estate has been absolutely disposed of, Ido not propose that a Par liamentary title should be given till the estate has been sold or mortgaged for valuable consideration. The object being to give greater facility of dealing with the estate, it would be unjust to give perfect immunity until the owner has made the registry the means of selling or disposing of his property. The moment he has sold it to a purchaser for valuable consideration the statutory title will arise. During the last quarter of a century I may say that millions of pur chases of land have been made for railway purposes. The railway companies are subject to the obligation I have men tioned, and if any dormant interest arises with respect to the land taken by them, which had not been ascertained and provided for at the time of the purchase, they are made liable to pay for it. Yet, so few are the instances of that kind which have occurred that I hardly venture to mention the number lest it should seem too inconsiderable to be cred,ted. I be lieve that not more than a dozen discoveries of latent inte rests have been made during the last 25 years, It is not probable, therefore, that we shall have much difficnlty in this reseect. With regard to registration, 1 propose, of course, that it should be voluntary, but calker an estate has once been put upon the register it must remain there until, by the application of all the persons interested in it, it is desired to be taken off. At any time it may thus be removed from the register. The great benefit attending the proposed registration without a guarantee of title would be that an accurate record would be kept of all the future dealings with the land, and after the lapse of a certain number of years, which may be defined by the judge or the registrar when the title is put upon the register, the non-guaranteed title would pass into the category of statutory titles. There are many other provisions in the bill which I should have liked to describe to your lordships ; but I am afraid I have already trespassed too long upon your attention, and therefore I shall only add that, in addition to the ordinary mode of re gistration, there are two other methods provided by the bill. One is the registration of an estate under a decree of the Court of Chancery, and the other is a power given to that Court of selling an estate with a Parliamentary title. Either of them may be advantageously resorted to in cases where the parties may not be desirous of subjecting their titles to the examination which must take place in the ease of a private registration. I propose to extend regis tration to freehold land and also to leasehold estates ; but to copyhold land I do not propose to extend it. One peculi arity of the bill is that it will be worked through the exist ing courts. In that respect it differs from the measure brought forward some time ago by Sir Hugh Cairns. I am 'afraid if I were to adopt his proposal, there would always be conflicts of jurisd.lction, and it is better therefore as well as easier to work the measure by the judicial aid we already possess. The, bill, of course, will come gradually into opera tion, and if it should be accepted generally it may be neces sary to [have other registries in aid of the metropolitan registry. Allow me, in conclusion, to entreat your lord- Ships to give this measure your most favourable considera tion, remembering always that no reform or amendment of the law was ever perfect at first. All such measures have their origin in borne crude designs, which are matured and completed by experience. The present bill is directed to an end which it has been the desire of almost all who have con sidered 'the subject for the last 200 years to see accomplished. I hope, therefore, that your lordships will address yourselves to the work, not frightened by any superstitious terror with respect to the alterations which you may be called upon to make, but with the eetviction that there is a great existing evil which has grown up from accidental circumstances and from neglect, and which may be removed if there be a union of fairness and firmness, of skill and courage, such as I think anill be found among your lordships,. with an earnest deei*ee to grapple with the difficulty and devise a remedy. Lord ST. LEONARDS was sure their lordships were thankful to his noble and learned friend for his singularly Cole and lucid description of a very important bill. (Hear.) It had been his duty for 30 years to oppose all the measures brought forward for the registration of assurances, and, although he had frequently found himself in opposition to the general sense of both Houses of Parliament, at the pre sent moment there was a universal concurrence of opinion that nothing could be more mischievous than a general registration of assurances. He never had any objec tion to a registration as such. Hisobjectionwas that it would do more harm than good, for, while the expense would be enormous the benefits would be very doubtful. If the object which his noble and learned friend had in view, viz., a re gistration of titles, although he was afraid it would degene rate, unless great care were taken, into a registration of as- . surances—could be accomplished, nobody would more readily support it than himself. Anything which gave se curity to purchasers must be beneficial, and during the greater part of his life he had laboured to effect that object. (Hear.) His noble and learned friend had told them that a period of 60 years must be gone over before a man could make a title. That term was originally taken, no doubt, with a view to the probable duration of life. Did their lord ships recollect what happened not more than two years ago? In the session of 1860 he brought forward a well •matured scheme for reducing the term from 60 to 40 years, and 50 reducing the liability of sellers ; but, unfortunately, both aides of the house were decidedly against him, and the law remained unaltered, to the great cost of the landed interest. Their lordships in a previous session sent down to the other house a bill for the registration of assurances. It was not sanctioned ; but a commission was issued to inquire into the registration of titles. The scheme of the commissioners was that there should lee one representative of the fee, that no equitable interest should appear on the register, that one nominee should represent the entire property, so that the estates of any one of these lordships might stand in the name of John Doe or Richard Roe, and the real owner appear to be wholly divested of his interest. The scheme which his friend Sir Hugh Cairns proposed in the other house would have established a new court, and the new court would have become a landed estate court. The title was there intended to be confined to a sole owner, but the owner was to be capable of making equitable charges, which were to be kept in a distinct manner. He preferred the scheme of the noble and learned lord on the woolsack to either of the two he had mentioned. Their lordships would bear in mind that this bill was quite permissive. It anyone, for the facility of conveying his property by a short process, chose to register it, ho would be able to deal with his estates just the same as at present. The law relating to devises and descents would not be altered, and the owner's powers of disposition would not be taken away or limited. Even if a man who, for the sake of obtaining an indefeasi ble title, transmissible to purchasers through all genera. lions, had registered, chose to have recourse again to the ordinary deeds of conveyance, he might direct the registrar to strike the entries out of the register and withdraw his pcmerly from it. There were certain payments to helped° for registration; but it was proposed that if any one regis tered an indefeasible title so as to exclude rightful claim ants, the rightful claimants should be indemnified out of the Consolidated Fund. The State was to become an in surance office, and the losses were to be borne by the Con solidated Fund. If bra noble and learned friend obtained the assent of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to that pro position, it would show that he possessed more influence over his colleague than he was disposed to give him credit for. He was inclined to think that if the title was good, it could be insured without resorting to the guarantee of the Sate. The scheme, in other r expects, was of this nature. It was intended for two classes of owners, The first class cons'sted of those mho had such a title as a Court of Chan cery would compel a purchaser to accept, and the second of those who had not such a title. But if a man had a perfect title, why should he go to the Court at all ? If any man wished to have a title under this bill his first step would be to go to his counsel, who after the usual examination would tell hint whether or not he had such a title as the Court of Chancery would compel a man to accept. If ho went to the Courtto be registered and the registrar rejected his application 110 would be damaging his own title. Everybody would know that his title was one which the registrar would not accept. 134 t, Supposing his title wa s re ally a goo d one, the registrar would not accept it without examination. It would be im possible until hel7 man with the best title t o g e t on the register ever sale M proved that he would have to prove now on y . • trouble and e Point of fact he would not save any of the %pease which be would have now to incur. The same invesistitgeation was to take was on the reg place after the property to be a new examinaetv:ery time there was a sale. There was But men did not wan ' t ort to at every change of proprietorship. 20 years or so. It might b b e e ineuit in g into their titles every assumed that on every change f ownership there would be Surance. The State would thaennetw Payment and a new in immense amount. The principl e m e i Z h ni t e be a n oo i d ng r t e h t e o sa a w n great difficulty in working it. The other cases w i- la ' o would be entitled to make use of this bill w e ,, only required to have a 10 yars' title to prove immediate desce n t and to pro- Putduce the last d e s d. They were to be on the register unguaranteed. The noble lord was u n d erstood to approve the measure being permissive rather titan compulsory, CRAN WORTH thought the state of the honsenot very ereouragit g for the discussion of a meuuraetttioetflr:ho tion of the measure, though kind. With the first p art of the nole and learned bill, which related to butwith wg a reg h ard Parli amentarytothe e was disposed to concur; hru r,•11 the noble and learned lord had made his statement in a singularly clear and lucid manner yet, notwithstanding, he was unable then to enter into any discussion of the bill, because he could not comprehend it. He was convinced that if rything could have made the subject clear the noble and learne d lord's statement would have done it, but to discuss the bill they must have the details before them. He hod himself proposed a measure that had the first object in view, that of procuring a Parlia mentary title, just before he quitted the Great Seal. He had often had th e quest i on b efore him, an d h e had employed the leisure of the recess in preparing two measures in refe rence to it, which he would ask lea-..e to lay on the table. P,y tlaweowsent of the WA. and learned lord he ihould have ....—....w.;.- k i..,„,' an opportunity of explaining the prot; ong of these bills before the second reading t‘4 of h , 0 present measure. Lord CUELAISFORD thought the state of the house was accounted for by the fact of those noble lords who had an interest in the bill having been satisfied with the noble and learned lord's statement, and knowing th .t the proper time for discussing its principles and details had-not arrived. He was not opposed to any measure for the simplification and registration of titles, as contradistinguished from the registration of assurantes. From what the noble and learned lord had stated, he understood it to be his intention to refer his bill to a Select Committee. On a question so difficult and important it was desirable that every plan should be laid before that committee, that it might adopt either one of them, or a union of several that might produce a satisfac tory measure. With that intention he proposed also to lay on the table the two bills introduced by the Government of which he was a metnber. These, with the two bills of the noble and learned lord opposite, and the measure of the noble lord on the woolsack, might all be considered by the committee. He was most anxious that some satisfactory measure should be adopted. The LORD CHANCELLOR, in reply, thanked their lordships for the reception which had been given to his statement, and said he was glad that his noble and learned friends intended to lay their various bills upon the table. With regard to the bill of his noble and learned ' friend (Lord Chelmsfcrl), there was very little antagonism between that bill and his own, both being derived from one common source—namely, the report of the Commission. , The several bills were then read a first time, and the seend reading was fixed for this day fortnight. On the motion of the Earl of LEITRIM, certain returns were agreed to respecting an alleged disturbance in the county of Leitrim. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock, NEW MEMBER. Mr. CHAPMAN took the oaths and his seat as member for Great Grimsby. PRIVATE BUSINESS The following private bills were read a second time : Abbey Ilolme, Leegate, and Bolton Railways —Alford Valley Railway—Andover and Great Western Railway— Andover and Redbridge Railway—Andover Redbridge, and Southampton Railw a y—Aihb ourne and ' Belper Road —Bala and Dolgelly Railway—Bala Railway—Banatead and Epsom Downs Railway—Barnsley Local Board of Health—Berwickshire Railway—Berwick upon Tweed Harbour—Birkenhead Docks and West Cheshire Junction Railway—Birkenhead, Flintshire, and Holyhead Railway —Birkenhead Railway— Bishops Waltham, Batley, and. Bursledon Railway (No. l)—Bollington (Prestbury) Im provement and Lighting—Bolton and Blackburn Road— Bradford Corporation Water—Bradford, Wakefield, and_ Leeds Railway (Deviation, &c.)—Bridge of Weir Rail way—Bridport (Second District) —Brighton Abattoir — Bristol and Clifton Railway—Bristol and South-Western Junction Railways—Bristol Port Railway and Pier— Briton Ferry Dockland Railway—Caledonianßailway (De viations &c.)—Caledonian Railway (Leith Branches)—Can nock Chase Railway (Extension)—Carlisle and Sillothßay Railway and Dock—Cheadle Roads —Cleveland Railway— Corwen, Bala, and Portmadoc Railway—Coventry Poor Act Amendment—Cromford and High Peak Railway (Lease, &c.)—Crystal Palace and South London Junction Railway—Dare Valley Railway—Dartmounth and Tor bay Railway—Daventry Railway—Deeside Railway— Denbigh, Ruthin, and Corwen Railway—Dollow and Kilmore Commons Incloaure—Dundee and Perth and Aberdeen Railway Junction, and Dundee and Newtyle Railway—Eastern Counties Railway and other Companies Amalgamation—Eastern Counties Railway (Colchester Branch)—Eastern Counties Railway (New Lines in Mid dlesex)—Eastern Union Railway—East Gloucester shire Railway—East Grinstead, Groombridge, and Tunbridge Wells Railway Eden Valley Rail way—Edgware, Highgate, and London Railway—Edin burgh and Glasgow Railway—Edinburgh, Perth, and Dundee and Fife and Kinross Railway Companies— Faringdon Railway—Folkestone to Barham Downs Road Frosterly and Stanhope Railway —Furness and Coniston Railway Furness Railway— Garston and Liverpool Railway—Glasgow Barony Parochial Board— Glasgow Police—Great Northern Railway (No. I)—Great Northern Railway (No. 2)—Great North of Scotland Rail way—Great Western and Andover and Redbridge Railway Companies—Great Western, Hereford, Ross and Glouces ter, and Ely Valley Railways—Great Western Railway (Additional Powers)—Greenock and Wemyss Bay Rail way—Halifax Corporation—Heckmondwick Gas—Here ford, Hay, and Brecon Railway (Deviations)—Horsham, Dorking, and Leatherhead Railway—Keighley and Worth Valley Railway—Kent Coast Railway—Kant County Gaol and Lunatic Asylum (Water Supply)—Kington and Ear disley Railway—Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Ad ditional Powers)—Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Doncaster, Goole, and Hull Junction Lines—Lead burn, Linton, and Dolphinton Railway Leeds and Bilston. Road —Leeds, Bradford, and Halifax Junction Railway—Limerick Markets—Llanelly Railway and Dock—Llanidloes and Newton, Mid Wales, and Man chester and Milford Railways—London and Blackwall Railway—London and North-Western Railway (Addi tional Powers)—London and South-Western and And over and Redbridge Railways—London and South- Western Railway (Additional Powers) London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway (Enlargement of Stations, &c.)—London, Chatham, and Dover Railway and Mid Kent Railway (Bromley to St. Mary's Cray) Companies—London, Chatham, and Dover Railway (Ex tension to Walmer and Deal)—London, Chatham, and Dover Railway (Junction Railway at Battersea, &c.)— Londan Railway Depot and Storehouses—London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway (Additional Powers)—Market Drayton and Newport Junction Rail way—Metropolitan and Thames Valley Railway— Metropolitan (Dublin) Cattle Market—Metropolitan Meat and Poultry Market (Western Approach)—Metropolitan Railway—Mid Kent and Addiscombe Railway—Mid Kent Railway—Midland Railway (Additional Powers)—Mid land Railway (Rowsley and Buxton Extension)—Mid Wales Railway (Deviations, &c.)—Mold and Wrexham Railway—Much Wenlock and Severn Junction Railway —Nene Valley Drainage and Navigation Improvement — New Chappel, Lindfield, and Brighton, &C., Roads—New port and Hyde Direct Railway—Newtown and Machynl leth Railway—North British and Glasgow and South- Western and other Companies—North British Railway and Carlisle and Silloth Bay Railway and Dock Companies —North British Railway and Port Carlisle Dock and Rail way Companies—North British Railway,Edinburgh,Perth , and Dundee Railway, and West of Fife Railway and Harbour Companies—North British Railway (Monk tonhall and Ormiston and Dalkeith Branches) — North Devon and Okehampton Railway—North - Eastern aad Hull and B olderness Railway Companies Amalgama tion—North-Eastern and Newcastle-upon.-Tyne and Car lisle Railway Companies Amalgamation—North - Eastern Railway (Blaydon to Conside)—North-Eastern Railway (Hull and Doncaster Branch)—North-Eastern Rail way Market Weighton and Beverley Extension, &c.) — North-Eastern Railway (Team Valley Extension)—Nor wich and Spalding Railway—Oldham, Ashton-under-Lyne and Guide Bridge Junction Railway—Oswestry and New town, Llanidloes and Newtown, and Shrewsbury and Welchpool Railway Companies Amalgamation, &c.— Queenstown Improvement—Radstock and Keynshain Railway Ramsgate, Sandwich, Deal, and Dover Railway Rathgar and Sallymount Improvement -- Red House and Weeland Roads Rick mansworth, Amersham, and Chesham Railway Rotherham and Wortley Road—S4ltord Improvement— Scottish North Eastern Railway—Sevenoaks Railway-- Severn and Wye Railway and Canal—Shrewsbury and nereford Railway—Shrewsbury and Welchpool Railway —Somerset Central and Dorset Central Railway Companies 77SeSustohulie:iceaosistkteesrhrnbihRreiraReilwalwy Railway Railway—Southu (s n h b e r fri i d e g i e a a a n nrs d di D o s th r o t on f r o nc r e d 7_ L p i o n sr e pa s ta l Fdn. ing and Bourn Railway—Stamford and Essendine Rail way—Stockton and Darlington Railway (Towlaw and Crook)—Stockton and Darlington, South Durham and Lancashire Union, &c. Railway Companies—Swansea Harbour Trust—Tewksbury and Malvern Railway— Tottenham and Hampstead Junction Railway—Tranmere Local Board—Tupton'and Ashover and Birkiii Lane Roads —Uxbridge aid Rickmansworth Railway—Vale of Clwyd Railway—Vale of Ncath and Swansea and Neath Rail way Companies—Wareham Roads—Wellington and Cheshire Junction Railwyay—Wem and Bronygarth Roads West Cheshire Railway 'West Hartle pool Harbour and Railway (Dock Extension) — West Midland and :Severn Valley Railways—West Mid land Railway (Additional Works)—West Shropshire Mi neral Railway—Weymouth and Portland Railway and Extension to Harbour—Whitchurch, Wrexham, Mold, and Connah's Quay Junction Railway—Winchester Road—Wycombe Railway. THE REVISED CODE OF EDUCATION. Several petitions were presented from different parts of the country against the Revised Code. BULLION. Mr. HANKEY moved for a return of tho amount of bullion purchased and sold by the Bank of England, dis tinguishing gold from silver, and bar gold from foreign gold coin, in each month from the 31st day of December, 1860, to the 31st day of December, 1861; also the excess of pay ments to or of receipts from tho public, of British gold coin ; and also the amount received from the Mint during the same period (in continuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 52, of session 1861.) —Agreed to. HARWICH HARBOUR. Captain JERVIS moved an address for copy of the re pert of the engineer sent to inquire into the present state of the Landguard Point of Harwich Harbour : Of any cor respondence between the Board of Trade, the Admiralty, War-office, and Treasury, on the same subject, since the Ist day of July, 1861: And of any communications between either of these departments and the corporations of Ipswich and Harwich respecting the same. OUR RELATIONS WITH CHINA. Col. SYKES gave notice that he would draw the atten tion of the house to this aubjcot, snarnovo for the produc tion of any papers connected with it in the possession of Government. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS, Mr. 11. SEYMOUR asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether the Government had received from the English and Iridh prelates any heads of a measure for the reform of the ecclesiastical courts? Sir G. GREY said that the subject had received the at tention of Government, and a bill had been prepared on the subject, which was under the consideration of the bishops. ATLANTIC ROYAL MAIL COMPANY. Lord DUNKELLIN asked the First Lord of the Tree -Bu/Y, whethe r he had received any communication from the Atlantic Royal Mail Company, relating to the present positicn and prospects of the company ; and if so, whether ho would have any objection to state the purport of such communication to the house? - Lord PALMERSTON said that he had received a writ ten communication, but should not at present like to make any statement on the subject, LAWS RELATING TO BANKRUPTCY. Mr. M URRAY asked Mr. Attorney General whether it was the intention of her Majest y ' s Government to introduce a bill to consolidate the laws relating to bankruptcy ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it Nike not tiVe fNv 6 u tiONDoN tention of the Government to introduce any bill such as that alluded to by the hon. Member. . _ APPROACH TO THE INTERNATIONAL EXHIBITION. Mr. DAMER asked the First Commissioner of Works whether it would not be expedient to save the expense by opening the road through Kensington-gardens from Bays water to the iron gates in Rotten-row, nearly opposite the Exhibition blinding of 1862, to carriages, as it was to equestrians during the period of the Exhibition of 1851? Mr. CO WPEE said the economy which had been sug gested by the hon. member would prove in the end to be very expensive, and he Was Opposed to any mete temporary roadway to the International Exhibition. STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES IN IRELANt). In reply to Mr. LbNbFORD, Sir it:. PEEL said it was not the intention of the Govern ment to introduce any bill on this subject during the pre sent session. MtXICAN ArFAIRS. Lord W. GRAHAM asked the Under Secretary of State For Foreign Affairs whether the statement contained in " the Correspondence on Mexican Affairs," headed'.ln closure No, 13," was correct, that £5OO was paid by the English Government to a Mr. Newell, as compensation for an illegal imprisonment by General Marquez : and, if so, why it had been paid in his case and not in any other ? Mr. LAYARD said that the compensation in question had been paid to all parties that were entitled to receive it. METROPOLITAN IMPRO VEMENTS. Lord FERMOY asked the First Commissioner of Works whether any plan had been adopted for the formation of the road to connect Bayswater with Kensington ? Mr. COWPER said that the road in question would pass through Kensington Gardens. There were three modes only for the committee of Bayswater and Kensing ton. One of those was by a tunnel under the river, a7new bridge over the river, or an enlargement of the present bridge over the Serpentine. The carrying out of any of the plans would involve a lage expense OUR. POLICY IN REGARD TO AMERICA. On the motion for going into committee of supply, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that he understood the house was about to be asked to vote the sum of £973,000 by way of supplementary estimate for the army and navy. It appeared to him they were in some little difficulty, because they did not know how the accounts stood for the present year. Last year they voted £12,179,000 for the navy, and L 14,609,000 for the army, making a total of above 26 mil lions three-quarters. The house did not know in what position it stood in regard to those enormous votes—whether they were sufficient or whether it :would be necessary to take votes in excess. He should therefore wish to know whe• ther there was likely to be any supplementary estimate either for the army or navy, or whether there had been a surplus, or was likely to be one, on those grants? Sir G. C. LEWIS said he understood the hon. baronet to ask whether the two supplementary estimates now on the table would bo sufficient to cover the entire excess beyoni the expenditure voted last session and appropriated, or whe ther some further votes would be required. When the ex peditions were recently sent out the accounts came in im perfectly, and it was impossible for the Government to say at the present time what would be the exact amount of the expenditure fer the Ist of April next. So far as his infor mation went the supplementary estimates then on the table would be sufficient to cover the whole of the excess both for the Admiralty and the army. With respect to the state of the law as to the transfer of accounts from one branch of the estimates to another, the hon. baronet was well aware that the practice which he objected to was in accordance with the existing law, and that in cases of urgency the Treasury were entitled to resort to it. Hi s right hon. friend had a measure in preparation with refer ence to the recommendation of the Public Monies Com mittee. He (SinG. C. Lewis) concurred in thinking that those recommendations wore extremely valuable, and he trusted that those not already carried out would receive the sanction of Parliament. Mr. DISRAELI hoped the Secretary of State for War would state whether the item of £ll,OOO for,extra pay and allowances was for extra pay and allowances for the service on the whole year or referred only to Canada ? Sir G. C. LEWIS—It refers to Canada only. Mr. W. WILLIAMS, while he approved of the course adopted by her Majesty's Government in taking prompt measures for the protection of Canada, said he was glad to learn that the amount of the two estimates, which nearly amounted to a million, was sufficient to cover all the ex- penses. Mr. BRIGHT—Sir, before you leave the chair I should like to make two or three observations upon this vote. I am, of course, not going to object to the vote. I have had too much experience in such matters to dream of such a thing. But after the prodigious sums voted in the last two years it may be worth while perhaps to consider whether the expenditure of an additional million is necessary or wise or not. lam not about to find fault with the course adopted by her Majesty's Government with regard to the recent transaction with the Government of the United States. So far as I see anything, or expect to see anything, in the blue- books and in the correspondence between the Foreign office in England and the Department of the State at Wash ington—so far as the despatches which were sent by Lord Russell go—l make no complaint about them. It does not appear to me that the request made of the American Go vernment was one to which they could reasonably object, nor that the language was such that they were entitled to complain of it. Therefore, so far as that goes, I have no charge to bring against her Majesty's Government, but it does appear to me clear that there was a great inconsist ency between the conduct of the Foreign-office, as exhibited in those despatches, and certain other portions of the con duct of the Government. It is not customary in ordinary life for a person to send a polite messenger, with a polite message to some friend, neighbour, or acquaintance—at the same time send some man of portentous strength handling a gigantic club, and making every kind of ferocious gesti culation, and still professing that all this is done.in a most friendly and courteous manner. That was precisely what was done by her Majesty's Government in this particular case, and I am anxious to explain to the house how I think that this million is worse than thrown away, and, besides, leaves behind the consequences of much more value, or much more harm, than a million itself. The house will recollect that at the very time when it was said the Cabinet was sitting for the purpose of framing the despatch to be sent by Saturday's boat from Liverpool to America, there appeared in the newspapers, which were especially the organs of the Govet nment, language of the most violent and offensive character, and instantaneously, probably on the very day when the despatch itself was wr.tten, steps were taken both with regard to the army and navy, exactly such as would have been taken if the despatch itself had been, not a courteous demand for a just object, but rather a de claration of war. Now, the effect of that upon this country was very obvious. It created almost an universal impres sion that there was something which the Government knew and which the country did not know. Though nobody but the Government could imagine that a cause of war could arise out of that question, it was supposed that the Govern ment either knew that war was all but inevitable, or in tended war, if war could by any possibility be made out of it. Judging from the statements made at the time, I suppose the answer I shall receive will be based on two theories, which I will undertake to say are about as false and igno rant as were ever offered to Parliament in justification of ~ any public proceeding. It is said by certain organs which affect to represent the Government, and which are sometimes 'the slave of the Government and sometimes its mas;;;;;1;:i the Government at Washington, end Mr Seward especially, ' were anxious to get into war, or into the difficulty with this country, in order to enable them with something like credit to get out of the difficulty of war with the South, and under cover of a war with England to make peace on some terms —I presume on the terms of a separation of the North from the South. That was one of the theories. Nothing in the world was ever offered to a practical man more absurd or more impossible. Mr. Seward cannot make war; the President himself cannot make war. Mr. Seward and the President together cannot make war, but the President and the Congress of the United States can make war. We may be perfectly certain that it does not rest in the brain of any ono man, however eminent or however in genious, to consent to the dissolution of the American Union under the cover of a war with this country. Well,the other thing was that the Government at Washington was so en tirely under the direction of the mob, that the an codurctoluds notde- de mand of the English Gove rnmen t `would n be listened to by that Government—that, in fact, all this display was not made for the purpose of overawing the Go vernment of Washington, but overawing the wish of the United States, who rule the Government at Washington. (Hear.) I see I have exactly hit the point which hon. gentleman no doubt imagined to themselves. Hon. gentle men know, if they have observed the course of the United States from its earliest history to this hour, that probably there never has been a great nation in which what may fairly be termed mob law has been less known or has less in fluence. (Laughter.) Where every man has a vote, rash law and club law must necessarily disappear. (Oh, oh, and laughter.) Understand, I confine my observations to the Free states of the North. (A laugh.) If any gentleman think that I am not fairly describing the case, I ask him to look to the circumstances which have occurred, and he must come to the conclusion that the Government of Washing• ton, whether in the removal of a Minister or the recogni tion of the fairness of the demand of England and: the sur render of two men perhaps more hateful to them than any other men who exist in the world, ha o not been influenced by the motives attributed to them. A man must be preju diced beyond all power of conviction to say that the Go vernment of Washington in this matter, or in any other during the last few months, has been influenced by the action of the mob to any extent which exceeds that which is found to prevail in almost every country in Europe Tho noble lord at the head of the Government and his sup porters will of course have the advantage over me. They will say, and I cannot prevent them saying so, that what over may be wrong in the noble lord's policy, that policy has been crowned with a:certain success—but that argu ment is not conclusive to show that the policy itself was right. I have not the smallest doubt myself that the only thing which made it a question whether these men would be surrendered was not the tenor of the despatch from the Foreign -office, but the tone of the organs of the press of this country which are known to represent a sec tion of the Government, and the moving regiments and ships in a manner which must have operated as a menace TUESDAY EV'ENI.NO, 1f RI 18, 1862, I to the Government at Washington. Any man in the *orld 1 who had access to what is to be found on the shelves of the English Foreign-office must have been aware, when the question came to be discussed as to the right to seize these men - , that whatever might be said as to the precedents of England, nothing could be said in favour of their seizure if you adhered to American practice and American principles. It was as clear as anything could be to any man who read the able speech of Mr. Sumner in the Senate of the United States, in which he collected all the authorities on both sides of the question, all of Whieh were known to the Poreign- office, that the American Government would have been utterly unable to resist the demand of the English Govern ment in accordance with their past, practice and principles, wever courieotts:and modest tha t dem and imight have been. It was well known, too, to those in Washington at the time that the influence of these military preparations Was felt, not by the eroVernmentat Washington or the American people, but by ministers who represented European powers in that country. I know perfettly Well that the ministers of Euro pean poWefs apressed their decided opinion that theft wag an intention on the part of some section of the Government, or of a powerful class in this country, if an opportunity offered, to engage in a war with the United States. (No, no.) The effect of such a statement of opinion was that every man there who felt that he was aggrieved or humi liated by this, asked himself, " Shall I gain anything by this surrender ; shall I only have to wait for some other oppor tunity for the action or the hostility which is now only ap parent?" I don't bring this charge against her Majesty's Government. Ido not say they intended war, but I am quite sure that very many persons in this country were led to that conclusion. It is very likely that the noble lord at the head of the Government, bringing down his traditions from the times of past wai s when law and justice were little regarded by most of the civilised nations of Europe, thought probably that the only mode of securing what he wished was by this. (Hear, hear,) Now, I believe that on that question, as well as on some others, but on that more than any, there is no other powerful Government in the world which has uni formly been so much disposed to abide, as far a possible, by known and defined laws as the Government of the United States; and when I heard that this demand was made of them, with a consciousness of their previous course with respect to this question, I had no doubt whatever that the matter would be amicably settled, except that menaces on this side might render it difficult for them to make conces sions. With regard to the effect of that course on English interests I would say one word. I will not count up how much the fUnds or railway stocks fell ; but I believe that in one market in England—the market of Liverpool—the effect, not of what was done on board the Trent, or what was said in the despatch from the Foreign-office, but of the warlike preparations of the Government, was to reduce the value of the stock of a single article by no less than three millions sterling. Again, private letters from Bombay and Calcutta state that on the day when the news arrived that war between England and America was imminent, a sudden paralysis occurred in the trade of those places, and till the date of the last advices that Paralysis continued, and the persons concerned in the enormous commerce between England and India have for some weeks past been suffering a great loss and great inconvenience, Doubtless, also, when we hear from Australia we shall find that the moment they learnt that the war was possible or likely not an ounce of gold, more was shipped, lest the vessel in which it was placed should be seized by an Ame rican ship cf war or an American privateer, and that the panic which seized the commerce of India had also seized that of Australia. New these are things worth looking at. Your people are employed by the operation of that com merce, and by the security of the capital which is employed in it, and when any transaction like this—this unhappy accident of the Trent—arises between the two countries. (Laughter.) I do not know whether that laugh comes from any member of the Treasury bench. I say it was an un happy accident. (Laughter from both sides of the house.) It was an unhappy accident as regarded the United States and our Government. It was nothing but an accident and no one knew that better than the noble lord at the head of the Government. When such an accident arises which may possibly cause jarring between the nations and the Govern ments, it is the policy and duty of the Governments in the first place to try all those moderate and courteous means which it would liketo have tried with regard to itself, before it had recourse to measures which would send a paralysis throughout all the ramifications of the greatest commerce in the world, and create an immense loss to almost all classes of the people. I say with the utmost satisfaction, and the utmost truth that the noble lord at the head of the Government could not possibly be more pleased than I am at the favourable termination of that untoward event. If the noble lord believed there was no other course for preventing the war than that he took, it would be very harsh and very unfair for me to attack him for adopting that course ; but I do think, knowing how much the United States Government has been bound up and committed to the humane and mo derate principles of international maritime law, he might have trusted more to that and less to the force he exhibited against them. Mr. BAXTER said that though entertaining the same friendly feeling towards the Government of Washington as that expressed by the hon. member for Birmingham, mad deprecating as much as he did the strong language used in many newspapers in this country with reference to the Northern States, he could not concur with him in his cen sure upon the measures taken byher Majesty's Government. (Cheers.) He had no doubt the estimates would meet with the unanimous concurrence of the house, as they formed part and parcel of the policy with regard to the Trent, of which the country heartily approved. (Hear.) It was no part of his business, nor was it the business of her Majesty's Government, to defend articles that appeared in newspapers, but he so far concurred with his hon. friend that he thought the language used by some of the newspapers of this coun try was quite as discreditable as that made use of by the press of New York. But not only did he think that her Ma jesty's Ministers acted rightly when they took a decided staid in the matter of the Trent—and he understood his hon. friend the member for Birmingham to take the same view—but he went further, and believed that her Majesty's Ministers were perfectly right when they backed that de• mand by a display of energy and strength on the part of this country that showed that Great Britain was in earnest. (Hear, hear.) He wished to ask her Majesty's Govern ment what representations they had made to the colonies, or meant to make, asking them to contribute more largely than they had hitherto done towards the maintenance of large military establishments in the colonies. Lord PALMERSTON—I am not going to answer the latter part of the speech of the hon. member who has just sat down, because that may be more fittingly answered by my noble friend who is about to address the house ; but I was unwilling to allow a longer time to pass without offering some observations on what has fallen from my hon. friend the member for Birmingham. I stated on a former occa sion that it was desirable in this house that we should not only pass laws and vote estimates, but that we should be the organs of the opinions of largo masses of the community. Igo further. I a lmit that it is right and useful that this house should hear the opinions of individuals, singular though they may be, and I think, with all deference to my hon. friend, that the opinions be entertains and expresses on the subject on which he has spoken are as nearly as possible confined to himself, (Hear, hear.) My hon. friend does justice to the course which the Government pursued in making that demand for redress from the American Go vernment. On that there is no difference of opinion. He has done full justice to the courtesy and consideration with which my noble friend the head of the Foreign Department insti ucted Lord Lyons to make the communication, and the delicacy and judgment and good taste with which Lord Lyons followed those inst.' actions, It is well to clear the grotind, therefore, of that preliminary point. But the hon. gentleman thinks that we were wrong in those naval and military preparations that we made, that we weie wrong in sending to Canada troops—according to him with ferocious gesticulatior a. Ido not know to what particular circum stance he alludes. I think they went very quietly. It was very cold weather, and if there were any ferocious gestures made by them, perhaps they used them when they were attempting to warm their hands. (Laughten.) But the point of my hon.. friend's argument is this, if I rightly understood him, that the United States were bound, and wo ought to have known that they were bound, by their interpretation of international law, to give up those persons who were taken from on board the Trent, and that it was quite folly to think that their Government was swayed by mob inflnencr. My hon e.-i,....,a says mat where everybody is a voter there can be no mob. (Laugh ter.) Ido not quite agree in that theory ; but he contends that the United States Government were bound by their own principles to do that which we asked them, and that they were quite free from any control exercised upom them from any other classes of the community. Well, now I would just ask him if the United States Government felt all along that they were bound by their own principles to disavow the act of Capt. Wilkes as being contrary to those principles, and that therefore they ought to afford redress; if they felt this, why did they keep those four gentlemen in prison ? Was it because, as he states, those gentlemen happened to bo the objects of great hatred to the United States Government ? That is not a reason why an act of injustice should be perpetrated, and why men should be kept in prison, who by the acknowledged and established principles of the Government were entitled to their freedom from the first moment that they were taken, I say that is a proof to my mind that the United States Government had not come to the decision in the earlier stages that it was an act which they ought to disavow, and that they were bound to restore these persons to freedom. But then my hon. friend seys that no compulsion Was exercised upon the United States Government, and that as to war, Mr. Seward and Mr. Lincoln could not make war on their own authority, We know that. We know that it requires the sanction of the Senate, My hon. friend says that therefore it was quite foolish, it was worse than foolish, it was criminal, in us to take measures ostensibly for self-defence, but in reality for the purpose of provoking a war with the United States. 'Well, sir, had we no ground for thinking that it ' was very doubiful whether our demand would be complied with ? (Hear, hear.) And will any man tell me who remembers the feeling, the indignant feeling, that pre vailed throughout the whole extent of the country, at the instant that they heard that the outrage had been committed —will any one tell me that any man in Great Britain would tamely have submitted to a refusal to restore those persons ? (Cheers.) Then, if that refusal had come, we should have been bound to extort by the usual means, as far as we were able to do so,that compliance which had been refused to our courteous application. Now what reason was there to think that the refusal was likely ? Why, really my hon. friend cannot have forgotten transactions so rt cent, and events so fresh in the memory of everyone. What was the tone and tetnper of the Northern States ? We know that from the commencement Capt. Wilkee declared that he had done this act of his own authority,and that the United States Government Were perfectly at liberty to dis avow it if they chose. Mr. Adams stated that to my noble friend in a despatch that s e received, which went no fut ther than this, that the United States Government was free to act as it pleased, and that their conduct might depend somewhat on the conduct which the British Government Might think fit to follow. I d 3 not know about that. How ever, Capt. Wilkes deelated that he had done it without authority or instructions. Well, did the public of the United Siates hesitate as to whether what he had done was right or wrong,did they' *Mt to be informed whether it was consistent or not with what my hon. friend states to be the acknowledged, well• known, end international code ? Capt. Wilkes was iftade a hero, and a hero for what ? He was distinctly put forward for having had the courage to insult the British Government. (Hear, hear.j tie had a great ovation at Boston, where, I believe, the persons holding offi cial situations, including the governor of the state, joined in the general chorus of approbation. That, you may say, was only a public meeting,and we have heard a great many foolish speeches made at public meetings. (Hear, and laughter.) We hoe heard a great many opinions there expressed which have not been backed by the rest of the country. But it did not stop there. Capt. Wilkes went to flab theatre at New York, and the whole audience rose as they would ha+e done to a great deliverer of the country. They rose in honout of Captain Wilkes, and cheered him, I believe, for a consider able time. Well, then, was the Government entirely silent? It is said in some governments that one department does not know what another does, and it has been made a teptoach even to departments here that they were at cross purposes. It may be the same in the United states, but the Naval De partment actually thanked Captain Wilkes, and approved of what he had done, and only ventured to hint a fault—that he had shown too great forbearance, and they expressed a hope that that forbearance would not be drawn into a prece dent in future. Then let us go a step higher. If I mistake not, the House of Representatives voted a vote of thanks and approval of Captain Wilkes' conduct. Here was the public—here was the Government—here was a branch of the Legislature, all approving of his conduct. With these facts before us, should we have been justified in supposing that a mere courteous application, "Have the goodness to deliver these men," would have induced the American Go vernment at once to say, "Well, we were quite right in tak ing them ; the whole country is with us ; we have insulted you, we are glad of it ; but as you are good enough to ask it as a favour, as a favour we will do it ?" Though, at the same time, the hon. member says we were entitled to ask it, and therefore they ought to have given it at the commence ment. Well, I say that we should have been really deserv ing of condemnation and censure, as short-sighted men, and not constitutionally alive to the interests of the country, if we had' simply rested our case upon a demand. But then, moreover, it was well known that in the public papers it was said they would not deliver these men ; it was said, I believe, by Americans here—though that is immaterial—but it was said generally in Washington that they could not be deli vered up, and they should not be delivered up. But, then, what was considered by the American Govern ment to be our weak point, and what was the circum stance which made the United States always more difficult to be dealt with by England than by France ? Why it was that because they thought Canada and our North American provinces were defenceless, and would fall before them. Then what was it our duty to do ? To strengthen that weak point—(hear)—to make the Ame ricans see that we were able to defend ourselves in that point which they thought the most vulnerable and the most easily accessible to them. Well, sir, that was " a ferocious gesticulation." (Hear, hear.) It was simply a defensive measure, simply strengthening that part which bad been weak and which might be attacked, and.the knowledge of the weakness of which and the facility of attacking which might have induced the American Government to maintain that position which tfiey had taken by retaining these gentlemen in prison, and refusing to comply with the demand for their restoration. Well, sir, I say that so far from condemning the Government, I think the Government are deserving of commendation. (Hear.) It was no more than their duty; but their duty was promptly and efficiently performed, and so far, I think, they have met with the ap probation of the country at large. (Cheers.) I think, then, that the censure of my hon, friend is not deserved. I think that what we did was not at all calculated to provoke the people and the Government of the United States ; it was simply a measure which it was our bounden duty to take, seeing the uncertainty of the communication which would be made. Now, my hon. friend says that the course which we have taken will engender ineradicable hatred between the two countries. Well, I tell him what I think would have been the result of the Government having submitted to a declared and gross insult on the part of the United States. The country might have submitted to it, might perhaps have voted censure on the Government, but the thing beingdonecould not have been undone. But the sense of humiliation, the sense of degradation which this nation would have felt at having been insulted in this gross man ner, with an avowed intention to insult us, would have per petuated in the minds of the present generation a feeling of indignant resentment towards the United States which would have bees much more likely than anything else to lead to acts of hostility. I think, on the contrary, agreeing with my hon. friend who has just sat down, that the course pursued was much better calculated to produce peace be tween the two nations. There is no doubt that all nations are aggressive. It is the nature of mankind, and between nations there start up from time to time conflicting interests and antagonistic passions, which if not judiciously dealt with produce the explosion of war. Well, if one country is led to think that another country with whom these ques tions are likely to arise is afraid of it and will submit to any amount of indignity and insult, why that is an encourage ment to hostile conduct; it is an encouragement to proceed to extremities which would lead to war between the two countries. There is no better security for peace between two nations than a conviction on both sides that each must respect the other; that each is capable of defending itself against the other ; that no insult or injury can be com mitted by one towards the other which will not be resented. Between nations as between individuals, mutual respect is the best security for mutual goodwill and mutual courtesies, and therefore my opinion is that the course pursued by her Majesty's Government is much more likely to have that effect which my hon. friend has suggested, to secure the continuance of peace and goodwill between the two coun tries. (Cheers.) THE NAVAL SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES. The house then went into committee of supply. Lord C. PAGET said—lt will not be necessary for me to trouble the committee at any great length in bringing under consideration the supplementary estimates for the Navy, the principal ceuse of which is pretty well known. It will only be my daty to give a detailed explanation of the various votes ; but previously to doing so I wish to answer the question put to me by the hon. member for Evesham re garding the balances which are available for the naval ex penditure. The hon. member asks whether the sums now to be voted are to be appropriated according to the esti mates laid before the house, or in aid of any other votes than those mentioned in these estimates. I can assure him that the intention of the Admiralty is to deal bona fide with the expenditure in the manner set forth in the present Estimates. The hon. baronet asked another question, as to the state of the balances remaining after the expenditure of the present year, as provided for by the Estimates for the year. I believe I may say that if it had not been for the late expedition to protect our North American colonies it would not have been at all necessary to come to the house for any excess whatever upon the ex penditure, and I rather think we should have had some considerable surplus. With respect to the present Esti mates, the first charge is under No. 1, referring to seamen and marines. This charge, lam bound to tell the com mittee, does not arise in consequence of the late preparations for war. The Government had proposed a considerable re duction in Vote No. 1, in consequence of the cessation of hostilities in China, the Admiralty thinking that they could in the course of the present financial year greatly reduce the number of men. The reduction has taken place, but it eta not take place so quickly as the Government anticipated. In the first place, matters did not settle down in China quite so soon as we expected. There was, in the second place, some delay in the return of the ships, while we had, moreover, to deal principally with continuous-service men, and it was, I think, a wise policy on the part of the Admi ralty rather to exceed the vote than to do anything which would have the appearance of breaking faith with these sea men. We thought it right as the ships came home that they should be paid off, and that such men as were not continuous service men should be discharged. The only other reductions which have taken place are, I may say, due b the common casualties of the service. Thus much with respect to that part of the vote which has reference to Vote No. 1; but then there is an additional reason, and one which, I am bound to tell the committee, cannot be regarded as alto gether satisfactory, why this sum is now asked. We have taken a votein the Estimates for slop clothing for the navy. That description of clothing is, as the committee is aware, no source of ultimate loss to the public. The general rule is that sailors purchase their clothes and repay the cost to the nation.. On the occasion of which I am speaking the supply which was due in the course of the last financial year, and which ought to have been brought in and paid for, was not forthcoming, and consequently a considerable sum—indeed £O,OOO, half of the sum for which I now ask—is due for slop clothing which ought to have been paid for during the last financial year. I have thus accounted for the sum of £lOO,OOO asked for under Vote No. 1. Vote No. 2, which relates to the provisions of the fleet, must, of course, depend as to its amount on the number of seamen we employ; and the fact that that number has not been reduced quite so quickly as we anticipated will, of course, account for the larger sum which is asked for under this head. Both these sums, we have every reason to believe, we have covered by Vote 10—that is to say, the vote for shipbuilding purpeses taken last year. During the autumn the house granted th. l sum of £250,000 for the purchase of iron-cased ships. That sum has not been expended, and it was ;he intention of the Admiralty—having, of course, in the first instance, ob tained the sanction of the Treasury—to apply the surplus which remained on band to meeting the excess in the case of the afro items to which I have called attention. There still remains Vote 17, for which we ask a sum of £234,338. This demand is, as the committee is no doubt a':',*nr9, entirely due to our recent prepara tions for the defence of our North American colonies, and it would, perhaps, be interesting to hon. members that I should state the number of transports Which we engaged, and the amount of stores and troops which we forwarded for that purpose. I may in the first place observe that in the summer the Great Eastern and the Golden Gleece were employed by the Government to take considerable reinforce ments to our North American colonies, and that the whole cost of that expedition is included in the sum which I have just mentimed. The number of stet to troopships engaged on monthly pay was, I may add, eight, while there were six steam troop ships hired for the voyage, and six steam store - ships. Besides these four contract mall packets were em ployed to convey as passengers for the voyage--not hired for the purpose—large detachments of men. These Vessels _ . _ _ . . took out the following force to Btitish North America:— 16 batteries of Royal Artillery, 4 companies of Royal Engi neers, 11 battalions of Foot, a large body of the Military Train, and also Staff and detachments ; making a total of 706 officers, 13,730 men, and 207 horses. The expedition was, Moteo - ver, accompanied by 260 women and 360 chil dren. 'he Motes which lam about to enumerate were carried out on this occasion, and I am anxious to enter into these details because I think the fact that so immense all army could be despatched to its destination at a cost so reasonable and a celerity so great reflects some credit on all the parties connected with the matter. (Hear, hear.) Fifty guns and their carriages were conveyed to our North Ame rican colonies, 91 ammunition and other waggons, and 9,707 tons of army stores, in addition to the baggage and equipment of the troops, while the cost of the whole expe dition was as nearly as possible £l6 per head. (Hear.) The Committee will, I think, on looking over the accounts, be disposed to think that the steam shipping companies have been very moderate in their charges, and that the whole business has been conducted in a manner extremely satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) I treed not, I am sure, add a single word to the statements which I have already made on this head, and I entertain no doubt that the Committee will be disposed to agree to the Estimate I have laid before them. I should therefore at once sit down but that I wish, before doing so, to answer a question which was pat to me the other night by the hon. and gallant member for Porter lington (Colonel Dunne), and to which, although the subject was to inc a source of considerable anxiety, I was then un able to reply. The hon. and gallant gentleman stated, with reference to the transports Adelaide and Victoria, that they no sooner got to sea after leaving Queenstown than:it was found there was a great leakage in their decks, and that, as a consequence, the troops who were on board felt much dis comfort. Now, I have instituted very careful inquiry as to whether diligent examination was made with raped to that particular point before the vessels set out on their voy age, and the hon. and gallant gentleman will, I feel certain, have no doubt on the matter when I tell him that I have been informed that not only were both those vessels duly inspected, but that their engines Were repaired, and that they were actually caulked on the fore and after decks in order to prevent any possibility of a leak. That being to, the committee will perceive that every precaution was taken which could be adopted before our gallant troops embarked to provide for their safety, and that if they experienced the discomforts of which the hon. and gallant gentleman com plains, it is to be attributed to the fact that these vessels encountered unusually heavy gales, which many vessels of war are unable to resist without leakage. It only remains for me, sir, to move the vote which I now place in your hands. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BENTINCK protested against the practice of an nouncing reductions at this period of the session, for the mere purpose of making the estimates look well. Such a system was both a wasteful and an extravagant one, because it was sure to be followed by a large and perfectly unneces eery expense for the purpose of repairing the mischief. He trusted that it was not proposed to reduce the armaments on board a certain class of vessels ; and that none would be sent to sea without its complement both of men and guns. He thought that a great saving might be effected by having a larger number of troop-ships of the Himalaya class. That vessel had paid for herself ten times over. It was not only a question of the comfort of the troops, but of loss of time, which time was valuable. 1f they had troop-ships always ready the men might be put on board in a couple of days ; and there were occasions when even a question of days might be of importance. Besides, he had been told that a number of the hired transports had been detained in the St. Lawrence ; and the Government would have to pay for the use of them until the breaking up of the ice released them and enabled them to return home. If these vessels had been troop-ships belonging to the Admiralty, that expense would have been saved. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. PAKINGTON wished to know whether this £234,000 includes the whole expense that had been and would be incurred on account of the reinforcements of our North American colonies ? If the vote had been even more than it was he should have cheerfully supported her Ma jesty's Government; but if the sum would really cover the whole charges he must say he congratulated the Government on being able, at so cheap a rate and with such vigour, to conduct an operation which had done them great credit, which had received the unanimous, or almost unanimous approbation of the country, and to which he believed we were mainly indebted for the concession the American Government had made, and for averting the misfortune of a war between the two countries. (Cheers.) Sir J. ELPHINSTONE also congratulated the Govern ment on the reasonable cost at which they had been en abled to convey their reinforcements to Canada. He thought that the house ought to take some notice of the manner in which the captains of those vessels (and especially of the Parana) had discharged their duties, under circumstances of the very greatest difficulty. (Hear.) Mr. LINDSAY said that since he had been in the house he had never seen an estimate which pleased him more than the one before the commit ee. He was of opinion, and he believed that the impression was general, that these four men would have cost the country a million each ; and he was glad to find that, in vindicating the honour of the country so ably as the noble lord at the head of the Go vernment and the noble earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had done, the cost had been so small. He was glad to find that the cost, as far as the navy was concerned, was not more than £234,000, and that even that sum included £25,600 for provisions and medical comforts of the troops while on board ship, which would have been required equally whether the men were at sea or on shore. The actual cost, therefore, of sending out these troops seemed to be little more than £200,000. They could not, of course, with this estimate before them, arrive at the whole cost of the expedition ; but it appeared that the charge for the army was only £609,000, so that they might take the whole expense at £1,000,000, or one quarter of what the country supposed it would be. Therefore he for one was highly satisfied with the result; and only hoped that when the ordinary navy estimates appeared they would be as moderate in proportion as these supplementary votes. The hon. mem ber for Norfolk (Hr. Bentinek) suggested the employment of her Majesty's troop ships instead of hired transports in such emergencies. The transport committee, of which he for two sessions was chairman, had, however, arrived at the conclusion that it was much more economical for the country to hire transports as they were required than to maintain permanently a fleet of transports. The Secretary to the Admiralty, a few days before the house met, addressing his constituents, had expressed a similar opinion. and had stated that he had the most implicit confidence in being able to obtain from the merchant service all the ships that were required for the transport of troops. It was to the resources of the merchant service and to the right arm of the mer chant seamen that they must look in cases of emergency, and they had no better proof that reliance might be placed upon the patriotism of that body than that the Naval Re serve, which before the threat of hostilities with America numbered only 2,000, had increased, immediately it was thought their services might be required by the country, to 10,000. Admiral WALCOTT gave his full support to:the esti mate before the committee. They had been told by the noble lord that ho would have a surplus with regard to the sum voted for the naval service in the year 1861-62, and he suggested whether that surplus might not be applied in re duction of the supplementary vote now asked for. With regard to the discharge of men from the navy, he thought that if any portion of them had been discharged without having put to them the option of remaining as continuous service men, great injustice had been committed. By the removal of guns from certain ships-of-war, of which the hon. baronet the member for Portsmouth had spoken, he hoped there was no intention of lowering the efficiency of the navy. Sir S. NORTHCOTE understood that the first vote of £130,000 was independent altogether of the expedition to Canada, and that if it had not been for the necessity of pre. renting a supplementary estimate with regard to the other items, the vote would not have appeared in its present form, inasmuch as there was an excess in the vote for the year for iron ships amounting to £150,000, which would have been available for this purpose. He wished to know whether this surplus, seeing that it was not to be applied in the manner to which the Secretary of the Admiralty had referred, would be paid into the Exchequer or applied in any other way. Mr. BENTINCK observed that the hon. member oppo site (Mr. Lindsay) had spent a large amount of energy in refuting assertions whioh he had never made. He had never impugned the energy or patriotism of the British mercantile seaman, nor had he gone the length of saying that the Government ought to be independent of the mercantile marine in the transport of troops. All ho said was that he thought it would be more economical, and conduce more to the comfort of the troops, if they had a largo number of troop ships of Cie Himalaya class in the royal navy. Lord C. PAGET said with regard to the surplus of £lOO,OO O , of which the hon. baronet (Sir S. Northcote) had spoken, that sum would undoubtedly, at the end of the year, be transferred to the Treasury and dealt with accord ing to the Appropriation Act. With regard to the question of the right hon. baronet the member for Droitwich, he intended to have stated that there woull be a further sum of about £IO,OOO asked for, which would have to be paid dut the next year, on account of the Canadian expedi tion; nd this arose from the fact that the transpoi is now e mpl o y 64 ' , ould not have been paid off till after the flan cial year had terminated. This vote would appear in the . next year's estimates. And this, in addition to the e 5234,000 now asked for, would eepresent the whole expenditure in the transport of troops to the North American coloniae- With reference to continuous service, he assured the hon and gallant member for Christchurch that the Admiralty had not refused any man who desired upon his discharge to enter as a continuous-service man. The reduction of armee ments of certain ships to which reference had been made was not in consequence of the reduction of men; but the effect of reducing the armaments would be to improve the ships in many respects. It would give more stowage for provisions and stores ; it would make them lighter and handier, and they would make more way and labour less in bad weather. With modern artillery there was no doubt , that these very large ships were overloaded with guns, and the reason of the reduction that was taking place was, that I the introduction of the Armstrong guns provided a mere powerful arm with a less weight of metal, and these ships would be as powerful as they were before with the greater number of guns. He joined in the expressions of admira tion of the manner in which the Naval Reserve had come forward in the recent emergency; and since they were giving credit where credit was due, he hoped the committee would concur with him in praise of the dockyard officers, who had got the ships ready for the expedition in sl) won derfully short a time. After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS, Sir F. SMITH wanted to know whether for the future ships would be made smaller, to correspond with the dimi nished number of guns ? Lord C. PAGE'I' suggested that these questions might be more conveniently discussed upon the Navy Estimates. Tho following votes were agreed to : DOO,OOO for wages of seamen and marines'. £30,000 for provisions; and £234,338 for expenses of transport. Sir G. C. LEWIS said the right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks, when the Speaker was in the chair, had asked him whether the charge in the first vote of the army supplemental estimate for staff allowances, was limited to the North American provinces or applied generally to - the army. His answer was, that with respect to this vote ale well test c the remaining votes of the estimate, the charges were for the expenses n hich had been incurred in conse quence of the reinforcements which Lad been lately sent to thelNorth American provinces, and which would not have been incurred if these reinforcements had not been sent met. He would state briefly the principal items of which this vote consisted. He might first, however, mention that the nun' ber of men was in excess of the vote during the early months of the year, and therefore it became necessary for the War D e partment to take stops to reduce the arm y , so that the number might be short of the voie at the latter period of the year. The consequence was, that the various regiments were allowed to fall below their establishments, but when the alarm of a rupture with the United States arose, the Government thought it necessary to revive the recruiting for a short time, with a view of bringing the regiments in North America up to their full strength. However, as soon as they received intelligence that the Government of the United States had decided to surrender the four men, the suspension of recruiting was restored, and the number of men recruited in the interval appeared to have been on l y 1,303. He thought the course taken by the Governmen t must satisfy the house that they were not in contemplatio n of any war. (Hear.) This explanation applied to the first vote. The whole of that extra sum was owing to the pro vision made, and to the extraordinary expenses of the corns' try. There was also a considerable expense for medical stores. The Government confidently anticipated that the North American provinces would exert themselves to the utmost for their own defence, in order to meet the assistance received from the mother country. With refer ence to same observations which had been made by boo' gentlemen that evening, he would say that the reinforce . " meats sent out were sent out strictly in a defensive ells ratter, and without any aggressive purpose. If it had hap' pened that England had no colonies beyond the Atlantic) unquestionably he would not have moved her troops. 0 had been stated that the insult offered to our flag was so unhappy accident. There could b e no doubt that on the part of the officer of the American ship it was a deliberat° act. Captain Wilkes said he did it in consequence of hit studies of international law. (Laug hter.) But as far as the Federal Government was concerned it was an unintention al and accidental measure. (Hear.) Everybody must hal e seen from the beginning that it was impossible that ad instructions could have been sent to Capt. Wilkes; indeed , that officer never pretended he had any instructions frool his Government. Although, however, it was in one se nse an accident, still it was, on the part of an officer of th e United States navy, a deliberate affront offered to our flag , and in consequence of that affront the North America° colonies became involved, and we should have shown a° utter absence of all honour and proper feeling if, haviog drawn the people of Canada and New Brunswick into oelf quarrel, we had left them to extricate themselves as the/ best might. (Hear.) Fortunately our difficulty has been overcome without the loss of a single life, so far as he S informed; and although they might lament the neceseiti for increasing their expenses, he thought the committee would agree with him that the Govern ment had no Par l as to the course they were called upon to take. (W With regard to the second vote, there was a considera ble charge for the purchase of horses, but it must be borne ill mind that there were six field batteries of artillery in Nord! , America, with 564 horses. There was likewise an additional expense for extra field allowances, and an increased char s for wages, owing to extra hands being pet on duri the recent embarkation of troop s. One of the principal rn items was £178,00 0 for the p ur chase of extra w a : clothing for the troops in British North America to inset the severity of that most inclement re g ion. The amount ot cost incurred was £2 17s, 2d. for each man, and he felt our ° the committee would agree that it w as a necessary precise' tion to secure the health and com fort of the troops. (Ileari He might state that there was one a rticle—lon g boots--e which we had no supply in store in this country. They were wanted in a hurry,:and the French Government, hea; ing of our difficulty, undertook to supply 1,500 pa irs; 0 ' boots, which came over from Paris in 48 hours. (llee.°1:; hear.) He mentioned that as a proof of the friendly e 37, by which the French Government were actuated. (li," hear.) The sum of £50,000 would be requited for extra Prve visions, and the other principal items included warlike atol l such as gunpowder, &c. The committee woul d see tha t ample provision had been made by the Government to roe% every contingency and for conducting the war, if it 11 broken out, in an effective manner. N o waste was incurre and great care had been taken to obse rve econom y eve" et, a time when great pressure was put upon the forrs Upon a vote r of £11,785 for pay and allowances r 0 land forces, Mr. ADDERLEY said that no doubt it was true, 4° o stated by the right hon. baronet, that but for the existents of the North American colonies not one of the regime t lately despatched across the Atlantic wou ld have been sense out. For his own part, h ow ever, he could not see why the , colonies should enjoy all the advantages attending a e°, " 11 nexion with England, and yet bear none of the burdeOS w cident to such connexion. He trusted the r i g ht hon. go tleinan would let the house know a little more about thae militia which he talked of as in process of formation Jr, Canada, and he should like to know whether the colontshe were going to pay anything towards the expenses Of t rf honourable t iu 'o t o t s andwas not s g to e u r n e t s ieec of all sorts which hail been sent out so their benefit. • 11 0 Sir G. C. LEWIS said the question raised by the rig m es a s n ar w ily as in on v e ol o v f ed co i n n s t i h de e r d ab is l o e us in s r i p o o n rV a t? present estimate, which was made to meet an extraordinare charge. It might have been wrong in their predeceel s , • • :ht geo' rot having adopted the policy which the rig's, .uon. A 0 man recommended, and required the colonies to 5re 11 7.,, large suns for their own military and naval defence. bat P- A asmuch as that was not done, the Government ho d to teal with the circumstances as they existed, and if tbeY 11 ....0 sent out these reinforcements the frontier of British rt ° t o o America might, perhaps, remain undefended. Th e Pre° oct system of the naval and military defence of the coloni e9 ,o doubt entailed a heavy tax upon the mother country ; they were dependencies of the Crown, and were al lowed option in regard to foreign relations, and as wo involo them in all our wars, it was not unnatural that they sh° ll „ir expect us to bear a very large portion of the expense of tby lo defence. Last session a committee of the house made , e r interesting report upon the subject, and as the hon.nreto;',io for Taunton had given notice of his intention to move OS resolution raising the general question o f colonial defent l it would be better to reserve all discussion in regard t oot until that resolution came before the house. With reap at to the 18,000 troops now in Canada, he could only say t',„g he did not contemplate the necessity of the force there be ° W kept up to that number for any length of time, but as to her long that number would be maintained he could not and a take to give any pledge. It was true that in Canada 9 2 1 0 New Brunswick the militia was not in an effective state, o.a the noble lord at the head of the Colonial departm ent 11 : . 0 brought the matter under the attention of the g overpO o ` o general of the provinces. He must say that the popula ti j had responded to the Government with great spirit 9130 readiness, and shown the utmost alacrity in assisting. '4 troops and making provision tor them even at a pec ato ro sacrifice. Indeed, it was impossible for him to speak iii strong terms of the excellent spirit which the entire Pof tl ig lation of the North American provinces had shown 01 " to occasion. He believed that measures would be taken et improve their system of militia; but Canada could 0 01 keep up a large standing army. After some further discussion the vote was agre ed to o 9 were a150£76,510 £76,510 for land forces. CO ' £ll,OOO for manufacturing departments and sto re blishments. £27,275 for wages. £178,500 for clothing. £126,900 for provisions and forage. Upon the vote of £177,077 for warlike stores, 'O 4 Col. DUNNE alluded to the shameful and dange r to conditions of the fortifications in Canada, an d wishe d At know under what vote money would be forwarded forth © ' repair ? 'lO/ Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the construction of raideg in Canada had made a great change in the aspect of the tied fences of the colony. The subject, however, had oecl o d the attention of her Majesty's Government, and thoY,' hi i ns tructed the governor to cause an [inquiry to be r ea l the able officers into the matter, and their report wo uldoPov,„ " o f Government in possession of all the facts as to the sta those defences. e vote was then agreed to, as was the vote fo r "f' racks. PAROCHIAL ASSESSMENTS BILL. b° ro' This bill was read a second time and ordered t o ferred to a select commitee. A re 10 14) INDIA STOCKS TRANSFER (REMUNER A TION BILL. This bill passed through committee. INDIA STOCKS (TRANSFER) DILL• This bill passed through committee. The house then adjourned. OIC (I 0 L O NDON : Printed and Published by AIL RDO - Y V A 0- No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE SUN Othee, in the Pica= of the Savoy in the County a Ali TUVfidahrOillarY is, 1843 2. 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