The Sun. — London, England, 1802-05-15 00:00:00

e th e • - rnon -ren ewa l o f former T reat i es. I n t h e i rst eedhowever, i t was not very c l ear t h at we de n our tittt to it froth a Treaty ; and, in the we were in possession of the right of proper- Y at ;he commencement of the War, which we had rv a i and still held at the conclusion of the rF r • Tne ri g h t o f property , t h ere f ore , still j u lai , 'ed in t hi s Country, and there could not be a e 'use inserted 'n the Treaty to give us that +filch 1 1 " had never lo st ; we mere ly restore d what we la d taken possession of; what we had before I ' () '`essed in o u r own r i g h t , must rema i n ve ste d i n see same man ner , w i t h out any necess i ty t or i t b e i n g tlstipulated by Treaty. With respeEl to these , reat ies, the ground on which Gentlemen con ed kas, that we were left in that quarter ,7 the '...salobe wi t ho ut secur ity o r saf e ty aga i nst le Claims which France might set up against tl3 * It waset singular circumstance, if the Treaty s et asid e all Claim:, that we should still be subject to them. We had got into a whimsical debate Up the subject. They all agreed that there r w as no d ou b t as to our rights ; yet they were dis 41ssing amongst themselves whether France might .not dispute those claims with us. It seemed we were to implor e France to negotiate with us on a sub_ Jet t iii respect of which we said there was no dis- Ptite • The offer ought to come from her. No, it "as said they must go to France and state to her r tain claims w hich w e req ueste d . h er to g ive up ; nd it was per f e e tly natural to suppose that F rance, finding she had such claims, would demand a com tnsation for giving them .p: this was a complete t v trsion of o ur s i tuat i on ; we were to ask her not i n attempt, what she had not attempte d . Th e De yitive Treaty gave F rance nothing but the FaCto ii_Jes and Possessions which she had at t h e commence of the War. Under the Treaty o f 17 3 3 , s h e Tight claim, according to the provisions of that .iit'ty, va r i ous r i g h ts w i t h respe et to tra d e, f oun d_ t t . e :Pon a nc i en t d ocuments : b ut we now gave er noti o ng but what we had taken from her during thetiV He should like to know whether a ques. tT° l could be set up as to her claims of rights of ; i re tinder that treaty. He should have thought, :ti'ist France, if she set up any claims, would do it nder the Convention of 1787, that being in his , i niOn the only plausible chitin which she could By saying that we gave her factories, it question-which might he started, whether we be4'4le her these rights..of trade which she. formerly t 4 e h'k'd, mese rights were restored as th e y .t lsted before the 'War, or whether France only h e t e eived h er P ossess i ons accor di ng to t h e letter o f bet Treaty ; but in all his reading, he had never 11 ; : r'I'T'of U question' which -w as no w starte d, t rieinee might pass by the commencement; of , ti . e War, an d mount up to a n y indeterminate pe but for the pufpose o f e sta bli s hi ng c l a i ms ; he 4 4( . 1 , never heard ,any such question arise out of t eat; the sitigle question was, whether she Otlired only by the Treaty, or received the ta rt 'ileges which she enjoyed at the commence_ e r't of the War ? If the latter was to be the 4 ase ' as Gentlemen on the other side contended, il ud that a Nation was to acquire that which she tti 4el not gained by conquest or concession, but .ee lY because she was conquered, whilst the con , te ltl h e • r ut lost something, it was one of the most , I , 4l ,siCal arguments he had ever heard adduced. ty 2 " l ' S dOEtrine of elaims, which were not claimed, 4 4', 10 be set up, it would be necessary to bring oe its ezertiors of imagination, and the superduftion et, ev erY probability into a Negotiation, and to t!~ t ° Se a person of the most lively fancy, to as s i st i n re rY Amb assa d ore he must retire to his closet, an d e t Z i en v and contrive every thing that hi s imagina t i on c sug'gest, that might be made the subject of th e dispute by the adversary. Then, let all i le s se be inserted in the Treaty. H e would not th l'ass any fO rt h er upon t h e H ouse ; h e truste d t h at st l e c ,: i ace would s t an d j ust ifi e d, an d t h at whil st t h ey its bles s'"" rove themselves fully capable of preservi ng b oa ings, they would be ready, if War became v 'idAble to meet it with firmness and with ner gy. ' • Z., t tl , h • L IV RENCE began with observing, that ti ' was his o p i n i on o f t h e j u d gment o f hi s Ri ght . e oo ?Prable Fri en d w h o h a d j ust s p o k en , t h at h e i ner " "ever differ from him without feeling an .11,e I'd to review his own. He complimented ,liii,„ R e i ght Hel. Gentleman w h o had last spok en of nis great talents, and the display he had made pies elotice to night, g the but could not help COM _ at at nit i manner in which Ministers had t out e d that they were nor fairly treated in the th e s e "f this discussion. Upon former arguments, bpoY h ai l sail, t h ey h a d not hi ng to move t h emselves ° the subj e el of the Defi n i t i ve T reaty , an d • yet sae l s . h ad Come forward w i t h a spec ifi c mot i on , ' t h e v t i e of which was, to approve of their own th e `i• He then proceeded to take a view of av 4s Present state of Europe, observing, that it to a not particularly to the Italian Republic, or t ent ?' one poi nt i n part i cu l ar, t h at he and other th e e tn.en on that side of the House imputed lie rke Ptesent situation of this Country. From tikeatote the necessity, as he. conceived it, of Wi t : rie 6 tion made by hi s Ri g h t H on. F r i end, ' (Mr. t4ll—"arn) upon a view of the whole taken to. : p on er • He th en expat i ate d at cons iderable length Int 3., tile state of Eu r op e , an d passe d f rom t h ence • the his tory of Louisiana, which he stated to extreth el e at y different now from what it had been; ki ts _ .mer periods, which difference he elaborately' `4lbed, contending that every thing which had ee n Ur : 11 r1 t h is ged by Geotlernen on that side of the Housei P teec sobjett was perfeetly well founded. He then ed „ita'a, eed to take a view of Malta, of which he' a histOry, and obser ve d, i t was not to b e ns e t e ,_ , "creot as of advantage to us, in the charatier of ell . ttal State , for if it wa s' at t h e b ottom o f t h e the,aitj the t o l , w( nlid he n o advantage to us in an y event -.31..31. use we' could make of it, that was advan os .the uli s c to ourselves, was t h at o f a guarantee against ,thei r Rion of France and to check the progress o f a ttibie .9it . which, he believed, extended to the f e ndt es•• He then proceeded to take a view of the e ‘ ii . g e t e e , u ,t `Treaties in which Country had bcci; tatiera at'different periods; for the rwo last cen and maint - iined . ' it 'h .the .0 Pv{fieY of ()in . a' been ..the ~uniform ancestors to renew or modify them at., f itm e een e . lnsion of every P eace , to a d eparture te . wh ich ' 4 sl 1 4 _ , Policy, h e gave a charaCter of rah:,- le then entered into a general reasoning .• • m . • upon the policy 'Well will held forth in the moti on of his Right Iron. Friend, not as interfering with the good faith to be observed in the . Treaty, but as a necessary system of precaution to be observed by this Country, for its own security: .. Mr. BOND said, h e cou ld not at t h at late hour ' of the night, - enter at large into the - sUbjed now be fore the House; which had been so ably treated on that side of the House; particularly by his Noble ' Friend last night, and that night by his Right Honourable and Learned Friend; who had dis. played every thing which ingenuity; learning, information, talents, and eloquence could furnish. —lt was impossible for him to say that he could add any thing to what had been said already, upon that side of the subject ; it would be the extreme of arrogance in him to suppose he could do so : he only begged leave to call the attention of the House to what he considered to be the real question. Gentlemen on the other side of the House, and his Learned Friend who had just spoken, had displayed great ability ; he would not say, whe ther they had, or had not, produced much effect upon the Public, by the manner in which they treated the subjea : he would not impute to his Learned Friend; nor to any other Gentleman on that side of the House, any intention of making unfavourable impres- , sions upon any persons who heard him, or upon the Public, by the observations which they made, but cer tainly such was the tendency of their arguments. It was true indeed, they professed to have no intentions l to censure any body, but notwithstanding their pro. fessions, it was impossible not to perceive that the effect of all their observations was to convey censure both upon the Beare, and upon the Mini sters by whom it was negotiated. He wished to know whether there was any fad by which it could be fairly concluded, that better terms could be obtained , than those in the Treaty now upon the table ? If there , was not, why should the Treaty he disapproved of, or its authors be deserving of censure in tnat House, or elsewhere t?—He was aware there could not be found matter of complaint either against the Treaty or its authors. It was true, indeed, that the Treaty could not be declared to be perfett—no Treaty was ever so : nothing could be easier than for specula. rive Men to form expectations in their.closets, but to bring them into alive life and reality, was often found impracticable. Such was the case in the present instance ; innumerable difficulties must occur in the course of such a Negotiation,many of which were in capable of explanation from their very nature ; but a bare reference to which would be sufficient for the common sense of that House. He then proceeded to observe upon some of those difficulties, and said, that he was very.far from intending .to insinuate that the spirit of the people of this Country was broken, but it must be admitted, that, f r o m t h e circumstance s of the War, they had wished for Peace, nor was it unnatural they should do so.— The great load of the National Debt could not ' be forgotten ; the pressure of scarcity which we had endured, in some instances bordering upon famine, were hardships which must have an effect upon the Public : fTm the consideration of this, it was the business of every good Administra- tion to enter into Negotiation —not that he meant to alledge that Peace was a matter of absolute ne cessity, but it certainly was a matter of prudence. Ministers in concluding Peace lead, therefore, in his opinion, done every thing that prudence could dic tate. That, however, was but half their work, the remaining part was to preserve entire our resources, to preserve, as much as possible, by wise measures, the spirit of the People, in order that if ever the evil hour should arrive, we should have the ability an d disposition to oppose, with effed, the ambiti. ous projetts of our rival, It was by such prepara tions alone that the prosperity of this Country could he secured, which he heartily hoped, and confident ly trusted, w e should long continue to enjoy. Colonel FULLARTON said. a few ' words, which we could not hear. Mr. WILLIAMS WYNNE expressed himself dissatisfied with several parts of the Treaty of Peace, although he did not wish that the good faith of it should not be preserved : he reviewed the Treaty, assigning reasons for his discontent, and shoving why, in his opinion, the House ought to adopt the .Address moved by his Right Hon. Friend. The C ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that in this exhausted state of the House, and, he could add, the exh aust ed s tate o f the question, it' would he unpardonable in him to ask the attention of the House for any considerable length of time ; but there were some points to which he felt it his duty to call the attention of the House. He con curred with his Right Hon. Friend, in opinion, that the turn of the argument of the Right Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House, amount ed to this—That the Definitive Treaty' now upon the Table, was such as ought to be approved of. He concurred with his Learned Friend, who, for the first time, be had the happiness of hearing in that House, and whom' he hoped he should often hear, that the tendency of the argu. mews of Gentlemen on the other side went to cen. sure the Peace, and to censure also those who ad vised His Majesty to enter into it. He hoped therefore he should be pardoned, if notwithstand ing the disclaiming 'of Gentlemen on the other side, and partiallarly a Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke towards the close of last night's De bate, the tendency of the arguments, whatever the intention might be, was to bring the Peace into disrespeEt as well as to censure His Majesty's Mi nisters. His Right Hon. Friend from whom the 4d. dress proceeded, he was free to acknowledge, made his proposition from genuine principle§, for they trtainly were genuine, by which he had been in fiuenced, not only in that Motion, but during the course of the contest in which we had been engaged. He thought he perceived from the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend, the same disPNition which led him, some time ago, to declare in that House, soon after the Preliminaries, his disapprobation of the Peace altogether. That disapprobation he expressed in terms almost unqualified—he had declared his opinions against the power of France, and the usur pations of that Power; and by the manner in which he made that declaration, he must have censured the Peace itself, as a death-blow to' the prosperity ,of this Country. He was truly convinced that his Right Honourable Friend, if he entertained the same sentiments, which he coulfinever disguise, not ever attempt to disguise; these sent i ments went the length of considering.' that any Peace with the present . Government •of France was inadmissible. That he had signified when the Peace was made, and before lie knew the terms : he had then con sidered - the Peace itself as a death-blow to the pro sperity of this Country ; this had always been the opinion of his Right Hon. Friend upon the subject, and that it was his opinion still, which he thought Was pretty clearly expresSed by the Motion he made upon the subject. Other Gentlemen, he was pers;hl4- ed, who Concurred in the opinion, that the Peace was not such as this Country had a right to exped, did not concur hoWever with him in saying that Peace ought not to be made at any rate; but his Right Hon. Friend had always gone the full length of saying, that any Peace with France in its 'present state was inadmissible. He said this the more readily, be cause the ptinciples and the motives which aauated his condud were truly honourable, and be could not help adding, that if the principles of his Right Hon. Friend, as expressed by the Motion now be fore the House, were adopted, they could not fail, nay, they must inevitably lead to a speedy renewal of the War. The question, however, now was,. not whether a Definitive Treaty ought not to be concluded, but whether, being concluded, it was or was not, a proper measure ? He could not help observing, however, that although Gentlemen on the other side of the House had not said that this subjed 'ought to have been discussed by piece -meal, yet they certainly conducted themselves on that principle, and had objeaed to the Treaty by piece meal ; but Ministers had laid their claim to discuss . the subject altogether, and that was, in his opinion, the wiser mode ; it was, therefore, by no means his intention to enter into the minute particulars of the Definitive Treaty, he should rather take a short review of its general effea : indeed there was not much necessary to be said by him—he had rather refer the House to what had already been said by. his friends to-night, and upon the former occa sion. They had treated the subject with so notch knowledge, so much talent, so much infbrma don, and so much eloquence, that little need be said in addition to what had been said already.— He was ready to rest the defence of the measure up on 'svhat had already been said : he admitted tha t circumstances Of a very great and important nature had-taken place before the signing of the Definitive Treaty, and between the signing of the I'reiimi_ nary and that of the Definitive Treaty—Tnints, which required explanation ; and there were dif ferences between the Preliminary and Definitive . Treaties, which it would be proper-for him to ex plain ; and, yet, having made all these admissions, he did not hesitate a'king the House this question, was it or was it not a Treaty which, under all the circumstances, was fit fur His Majesty to engage in ? Was it or was it not, under all the circumstances, a Treaty which it was wise in His Majesty's Ser vants to advise His Majesty to assent to ? Having said this, there were two or three points which he should proceed to, explain, in the course of which he shon4 have to solicit the attention of the House, On 'the subjea of Louisiana, he said he should say no more than appeared to be, necessary, by way of answer to the danger which had been talked of by Gentlemen on the other side, in 1762, both Canada and Louisiana were in the possession of the French, when Great Britain had large posses. sions• in America, and the possession of Louisiana and Canada was not enough to prevent Great ,Bri tain from being more titan a match for France. Canada certainly being important, and Louisiana being now said to he so, they were nevertheless un able to make a stand against Great Britain. What was said to endanger us now, was the power of France in that quarter, but which was not equal to our own possessions and strength, and with the friendship, for this purpose, at least, of an inde_ pendent, and now become a powerful and populous Country, namely the United States of America. Buravith rest to another point, namely the hazard which ourcommercial interests was exposed to in this quaiter, as had been stated, thus stood the fact : There was a difference stated to exist between Louisiana and Fort Hillsborough. There-mas not in Louisiana a single port wherein a ship of the line could enter, and in the other a ship of the line could not anchor without taking out her guns. Nor was there any . danger to our Commerce in that quarter, from the cession of this place to France ;--- , -the improvement which had taken place in making copper-bottoms to our ships, and other circumstances, gave us other great advan tages in that quarter, by enabling us to alter the course of our navigation, by going through the Windwaa.d Passage, instead of the Gulph of Mexico, so that we should never be annoyed in that quarter by the French, in the' manner in which Honourable Gentlemen had stated. With resped to the diffe rence between the Definitive Treaty and the Preliminary Articles, it was a question which he would himself ask the House—Whether, under all the circumstances, they were not satisfied that this Definitive Treaty was a fair execution of the Pre. Jiminary Artieles? He admitted they were not stritly the same, and indeed if they were, there would have been. no occasion for Preliminary Articles, because they might as well at once have been made to assume the form of a Definitive Treaty. There were five Ar. ticks in the Definitive Treaty modified from that of the Preliminary Articles—rst, the Article re speCling Prisoners ; zdly, that respecting New foundland ; 3dly, that of the State of Portugal ; .4thly, that of Malta ; and sthlk, that of the Cape of Good Hope. Now, undoubtedly, with regard to three of these Articles, they were revived in the Definitive Treaty, and finally settled in a way that was advantageous—he meant those Articles which related to the Prisoners, Newfoundland, and Portugal. It was theiefore only as to Malta and the Cape that any doubt could arise any where, as to the difference between the Preliminary Articles and the Definitive Treaty. Now, with respeCt to Portugal,- he was really astonished that so much had been said on the other side of the House, after, so many explanations had been given of that sit!). ,jet{ he would not say that Gentlemen had a wilful inileoneeption of that subject,', but he really knew not. how . Gentlmen cotild - state the objeftiOns they had stated so often, after the explanations which had. been given to them upon that subject. He now , averred again, that t h e T reat y o f :Baciajos was known to His Majesty's Ministers previous to. the t'grs'ing of the Prerthinary-Article3, awl cammunicae thin took }slice bet .v e to us and the Court of Lisbeil on theeebjed. of the limits of Portuguese and French ; we were given to understand the limits l ofPortuguese Guiana, and this created a determilia tion in us to afford them every protedion possible there was art apprehension that they would not meet their danger as danger ought to be met, and that therefore they might .be induced to accept of terms still mare disadvantageous thari those .vhich wer e included in th e T rea t y of Hadajos. —What was the candud of His M.!jesty's Ministers ? From an ue. derstanding which Geetlernen comprehend without calling for particulars, it was stipulated on our part, that the Treaty of B idaj es should be in force only in a particular manner, a- far as it relate ed to the limits of Portuguese Guiana, and -it was stipulated that a subsequent Treaty entered into, or whieh might be entered into, fixing the limits more disadvantageously to Portugal, should be null ani void, as far as regarded these - limits were concerned. The Treaty of Badajos, ie consequence of the die satisfadion of the French, was not ratified, but the Treaty of Madrid was ratified, in which the term: were much more disadvantageous. to Portugal, than those of the Treaty of Bidajes, as far as re.. spelled the limits of the Portuguese Guiana. The House would recoiled the explanation of his Noble Friend upon that subjed, by which it appeared ma. nifestly, that we had acted generously towards For. tut al in this. respect, and this was so far supported by the best evidence, that no objection was made to . it on the past of the Court of Lisbon.—On the sub jed of Malta, he would, after so much had been said already, say -.no more than, that the Noble Lord (Lord • TEMPLE) misconceived the thing, if he thought the Accounts to which he referred described the whole of the Order of Malta, in point of Reve nue, for it related only to that part of the Revenue, which grew out of the Customs. It had been asked whether the King of Naples acquiesced in this mat ter ? to which he answered, that the acceptance of the r King of Naples had been signified' in this particular, and therefore all obje&ion on that Ar ticle was done away. Austria had also accepted the Guarantee. Having thus gone through all that .appeared to him to be necessary to par t i cu l ar i ze, after what h a d been urged from others quarters, he would ask, whether this was or was not, under all the circumstances, fit to he, entertained by the. House, and worthy of its support ? lie was not de siring that it should be praised—He had never • thought of this Treaty, nor of the Preliminary Articles, with any sentiment of exultation ; he had satisfied himself, and he remained satisfied, that it was that •, which upon the whole was the hest measure which could be taken'he had never en deavouredao paint it in false colours—he had never attempted to apply to it any epithets of prai ; he was content with the refleaion that he had not tarnished the honour of the Country by the mea sures he had adopted—he had long been of opinion,' and he trusted he should never change it, that there was no extremity of distress which a Na tion had not rather . suffer, than that its honour should be tarnished. For honour was another word for the strength of a Nation ; hut if he were asked, -why, under such circumstences, and after an additional proof of the ambitious views of France and of its-power, by the transadion of Lyons, this Country had abstained from making remonstrances, or from taking any step to signify to our adveriary the feelings of His Majesty on th at occas i on ? T o this he, would answer, that Gentlemen who 'ar gued a-case like this,, had many advantages over a person in situation.—They would easily put questions to bins which it was impossible for him to • answer ; • and they might state. obstacles which it was difficult, if not impossible for a Minister to re move in the way of argument, its a manner that .wa s at once satisfactory to those who made the objedion, and consistent with the duty of .the Minister. He would only say, that it•*as matter ofgreat satisfac don with him and with the rest of His-Majesty's • Ministers, that they were determined, in the event of the failure of. the Negotiation,' to have laid before the House every document they possessed upon the subject, and possess the House of complete information upon it.—He thought, after 'this, it would have been almost tautology in him to say, that he was at least satisfied it would appear by this in -formation, the honour of this Country was not tar. nished by any thing that was done by His Majes. ty's Miriiiters in the course of this Negotiation he trusted it would appear by these documents, had it become necessary to shew them 'to the House, His Majesty's Ministers had felt, as they ought to feel, as British Ministers, and that their conduft was such as would haVe met with the approbation and support of that House. But if the question was put to him, he would answer if, not by any particular statement, but 'relying on what had been said al ready by'his friends, who had stated the case in terms that were very forcible, that an attempt oa the part of Great Britain to maintain alone the can_ test with France until her territorial power in Eu rope was abridged considerably, wit, an unwise measure.—That the extent of that territorial power was matte( of regret, was unquestionable. It could not but be matter of regret, but it was a lot which we had not the power of controlling—w e were not to presume to say the bounty of Providence was to be dispensed in the way 'that was most con sonant to our wishes. We ought to be contented with the conviftion that we had abundant means of providing for our own security in a separate state and condition e. but we were not able, under all the circumstances by which the greater part of the world was: affeded, to provide for that security on a large scale which connected us with the security of other PoNers ; that depended upon events over which we had nu control. He could only say, he was astonished that his Right Hon. Friend, (Mr. WINDHAM,) whose heart, he was persuaded, was deeply interested in these things, and even now che rished the hope, perhaps, of' recovering all that had been lost in the Contest, should not long ago have been satisfied with the arguments, or rather that his own enlightened mind should not have anticipated . the arguments by whi c h t h e expe di ency o f ma ki ng Peace was demonstrable, and that even upon the very, principle of his Right Honourable Friend hine. self, which was this, that if ever Austria and Prussia, and other Powers. should recover power, and regain the instinationd obtaining w;,,at