The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-09 00:00:00

i;IIIDITAIwe piesuinejhAaddeclated that he should be . rather for War than Peace, or if '"e tri e d to preserve Peace, we should soon b e f o r ce d into a situation of War, and then he shoUld have 4 I G regret _that we did not enter into War sooner-- dtstiri lion the General 'looked upon as being cutout a diff erence ; b u t such men could not e P Peace with France if they-were Ministers t the present moment, anchhat he was aware r e °l ild not b e accepta bl e to : the :People of this oiutitryo, so that the -Noble -L rd and : his Ad tnnistration Would want that confidence, - without hi : 11- no Administration in this free Country could l e. Permanent. He had . but one observation more ever he gave a Vote:in Parliament I th flea - this h vote ---for it was for the was t e vo 's'thlislunent which he belie Wed would have the t , e 1, " . 't!l of rea l eco n omy , an d o f secu ring to us. Peace, than - any Seal that ever was-yet affixed to any T reaty, ~Gewral TAR LETON observed, that the Debate, °n .a former oceasion, had produced a great deal of I ,, i n ' ee noe of opinion, and, yet the Vote had been of this. and so he believed would be the event this. night. He said, he was One of those who 'jell in the conclusion of. the last 'War, upon , t 'jell th e Ministers of this Country, in agreeing :1„-terrts, and the PeOple Of this Country in ap.. ' fi - j v e ' n B of them, gave proof to .Europe of our paci_ i a - CTPosition, a character which we had not at -1111-eer-,' Previous to that event. That the People of e ist 4ottntry were desirous of Peace at that time, of She doubted,: they gave proof of it soon th e al us in many instances ; and among the rest, R' te stified 'great satisfaction at the Repeal of the R e c e °l4 ,e Ta x , which was a dire& War Tax. This r e al the People would have received in time of W 1 4 4 p r ' With great comfort, as a breathing t ime ; but th e e eac et they regarded it as a solid comfort , and IV- rejoiced at the occasion which gave it birth. *e People had now the assurance, an assurance (1 ; ; I 'ch they wanted to have, that if this Country was d ;: v en to th e f ata l extremity of War, they would be net to it from the 'insatiable ambition cf our Ohbours, the French. The Vote now before the u se he regarded as a Vote for the security of , 4s Country ; and what it was constituted that t =a=tty, cou ld b e j u d ge d only o f by c ons idering t e Present relative situation of Europe ; and here begged leave to go over shortly the state of . :t rope, which he did, compar i ng it at former pe xt°ds with it s p resent con di t i on , an d especially the et 'dition - of France, and observing it had at all Plods of our hi s t or y b een ' mu ch the policy of this te untry to opp ose. t h e - aggran dizement of France. le, then ask e d, if there was any thing in toe pre sent state of France that rendered it less the object °f our joalousy than it had been on fOrmer occa prits ? 'Most indisputably no t. We should there .e watch th at Po wer, and.prepare fur any even t e mit m i g h t h appen. We were a People w h o st ill i n i°Yed touch happi ness an d p e rfeet freedom, at east more happiness and more freedom were enjoyed still in Great Britain than in any other nation upon . : A t arth• It w as to preserve that freedom and that .happine ss the present Vote was proposed, for the pre sent Vote m i g h t be called , . a security for the carol nuance of tho se • blessings which we -so eminently "JoYeti. Frile 4l tltti z e was now raising two men out of ozrin, flora iti e.ll;yle eiripplotion, capable of . bearing l ee c tually, un d er t he t remendous terms of z5l. sterling a man, to, he. e xcused. Thi s was much too to al4 rraing a preparation on the- parr-of France to a matter of indifference' to Great Britain. For his t part h e regarded it with, great apprehension, Sul 1 Y Istlequate to the Vote which . was proposed. to. isetai r Leund of this sentiment did lie believe . the , k eP ° rirticri - TOF tower er rent were the rrors of war, some of which he stated, yet the' t e ' r rors - of seei ng t h e F ren ch Flag on the Tower of 4, °ndon, were much greater, and they were equalled Ate- Itoc,ros-- of making current in this Country, the politi ca l pr i nc i ples an d ' sent i ments of Bonapar te , held of his - po li t i cal assoc i ates . They were indeed °tit by some persons as - "pacific men---Tas e i ri "ds to agricultu re an d cotninerce, such as were l t termined on l y to run a race with us in the way of , t ra de!"—But th o b e li eve d it Were we to be blind c verY action, and credulous to-every profession on t ne.part of France ? No, no, they were nut able so t° l: , deceive as ; w e k now how to look at the State of ur °P,e; to see th e g i gant i c power of France, under , eh e'nod of a person, who, if, not the greatest, was e eldedly tbe most ambitious General in Europe, ; iI 1 9 t that he meant to over-rate or to under-value ils- ralents. Soine had called him the great Disciple t )f I\l 4homet ; some had called him the invincible A t • n gel of Grace. He should tall him by no suchtho. for be he what he may, his Flag, Invincible u .gh called, was struck out of his hand in . t ,FYpt by a ga ll ant B r i t i s h Officer, who was now a ember of the House of Commons. lie observed, that he had voted uniformly against the late .War, „ I ' d he had .done so conscientiously. ; but not more tie than he was now -about to vote, for e considered this as a step necessary forthe safety : ki t his Country, as well as tbr the, security of its ° flour. o • • of ARCHDell.L.said, be hoped that the Vote t°-night would be understood both at ,home and abroad as the effect of a deliberation of the Represen t'ves of a g reat N at i on , who were acting according to th e Spit it o f t h e answer w hi c h t h e y ga ve to their s) ve reilen, corresponding with him in sentiment, al_ r . having heard him express from the Throne,, his pa t er nalL u solicitude to preserve Peace, if possible, i t t Honour c erta i n , to a ll hi s peop l e ; an d f o rtunate • Wa s to us, that t h e f orm of our ConsLitution was . : o 4se eionsvthraeigtthe sentiments of honour expresed either by nor his Pe o ple, could-not be mistaken, dis_ ed,or doub te d. With us, if War was to take place, fr 41d not come in the shape of a dark manifesto perpetual Dilator, affecting to aft for the of those w h om he never consulted ?it m n i li .. e 1 ce‘as eh t . s. No, eted :beratio ns o f t h e B r i t i s h S enate w ere in . e their s ense consu l te d, b ut not contro l e d, by seni tthority w hi c h assem bl e d i t , an d w h en as bled thi n they spoke with -a free voice, which no- Vg,coulti appal, and that a voice worthy of a re,, r eptile aielLnuatelv represented ; and he would ntute to sad , that ac i grately represented, the. ';11 0 .: e fjo — fttkfle' 'm would not be, if the • use.d th e A , 10 opt now vote agreeably to the Spirit of er\odrescwhich itoett 6 troed in answer to His. , tat esto .„ • s.ir 4 qteCh from the Throne e and agreeable. ',l l/ te. that Addresi the Vote of chit r.:2-ht bc, if it was' not in favour of the .present Resolution. With.tegard to Money, which had been called the Sinew of War, he obserired, that there was no good sense in the expression, unless it was accorn_ panied.by other things ; a willing heart t-o give, a wise head to direet, arid a• vigorous hand to execute the -purposes , forwhich'it- was voted.. • - On the sub jet of the removal of Ministers, which the Noble Lord had!stated; he only. observed, that if that Noble Lord continued to support their measures by. his votes, he hoped be would not endeavour to damp the ardour of the PeOple by his - speeches. Whatever dangers Might aWait - Us l and he was-con vinced there were many, yet he was.coovinced these dangers had been magnified and atid-tiplied, and the situation of thisCoUntry had been made to.appear much worse by the Speeches of some Gentlemen, (well-meaning no doubt; .but he was speaking 'of their effed), than the situation really was. Placed in a.situation, Which, as it appeared to him, was neither demanded by necessity, nor dilated by pru dence: All the advantages of the French.on the one hand, were blazoned 'forth with all the colours which eloquence could paint—On the part of. this Country, were held forth all the weakness and the deleds that could enter a'fertile imagination --our -degradation', our cowardice, and topics of this nature had been held 'forth, as if they were really attached to Us ;' all this must have the effect, if it had any effea, of casting a gloom on the spirits of the people of this Country--Now he would appeal to every Man heard him,if this was the probable way of serving this Country at any time, more especially at this time in a conjunaure, ac. knowledged by these very Gentlemen who used the language, to be critical, and for which they called upon us all to prepare. Indeed, there'was Some:. thing very singular in the condua of these Gentle:. men : they spoke one 'way, they voted -another—;- they seemed to endeavour to vote the Country•into the utmost vigour,- and to debate it into despair.— , - He had heard t haea General ought not to be laUght to think lightly of his Enemy, but that a common Soldier should ; but he did not know it had ever been inculcated as good policy - to• teach the Even y to despise both General and Soldier. •If, indeed, whit passed in that 'House, - went no further than that House, thetecould be no harai in the Speeches of these Gentlemen, when they voted one way, and spoke the other ; - but it was well• known that they travelled, and they 'Might' haVe great effea •in 'some places, especially in Irelatid,Where a considerable part of the Public thought aonan's speech was a better test of his.opinion, than his vote.' In Ireland, there was still' a' patty who would magnify every thing that tended to extol the greatness of the Great Nation; and who wanted to prove, what 'he hoped always wouldbe wanting in proof, the comparative littleness of England. But the House would look at the real situation of both these'Countries. It 'was such as any one might give some tolerable description of : even he would try it—even he would venture •to suggest, that power which had been fraudulently raised, might decline in the means which raised it, and that the life of a per Son so situated, is but a precarious tenure. It was true, that, nominally, France had power over a great *part of the Foree of Europe, but it did not thence follow, that France could employ that force efficiently against us, because i t Was possible that those'States which die Mother Republic dalled her Children, -Might think them selves her Slaves, and like SlaVes, be more ready to rebel than to obey. It was pOssible, that France might want the best of all possible power—the power of having a Government that did not depend f o r its continuance on Military Force, or be at the mercy of a Military Power ; for it wits thought by some persons here and or, the Continent, that the •finances of France were in pillage, and her friendly Alliances in compulsion. Now, if all this was pos sible, he saw no great foundation for our dismay, or for predictions of our "downfal : nor did he see a ny very good reason for regarding us as'cowards, for having, for nine years, fought the battles of Europe. If, with our present a dvantages of Trade and Commerce increased,' and our Loyalty pure— our Honour untouched—our Exertions singular—. our Navy great and glorious—our Army vigorous and prepared 'for Atiion---the whole People- in a' Mass, fixt in attachthent to its Constitution and its: Government : if, with all these ad vantages we struggle, and . yetare 'doomed w fall and to be de stroyed, all he knew - was, 'that there•muSt be in it something' beyond hiaman foresight, and we need not be ashamed of our destruelion.' Mr. CARTWRIGHT (as we understood) observ. eil; that the cause of complaint, danifested in that House, against His Majesty's Ministers, was, .the Want of information, alledged to be due from them to the House, nor were those who were dissatisfied, hi that repea, at all inconsistent by their Votes.- They disapproved . of Ministers, but' they would not, on that account, deliver the Country over to the Enemy. This Opposition was upon a pure princi ple,, not like former Oppositions, especially in the War before the last, where every thing was done. with a mere view of harrassink Government. Mr. WHITBREAD said, be believed that the true interest of this Country was the objea which all the Members of the Committee had equally in view, although they differed • widely about the 'means of obtaining that objea. He lamented that Ministers had about them so much indecision ; for at one time the Minister told the House, 'that from the situation of affairs, he was convinced that 30,000 Seamen would be sufficient : then, without •any alteration in those affairs, none at least comma. nicated, and its being, indeed, - avowed there was none, 50,000 were proposed ; and having given it 'as his opinion, that it would only be necessary to vote this force for a few monthre;" and' then, with. out any the least allegation of increased danger, or the least probability of dangeOd'Us,...the'Same Mi. '_'sister, in a few hours afterwardS," . shotild declare 'that,` upon mature deliberation., -- lie•thought it pro.: per - to propose this force for the year; This, Mr. `HITIrREAD said, had it been in his power to attend in the House at that time, he should have thought it hi's duty to oppose, because he thought it a dangerous thing' to holdout to the World,' that there was so much indecision in 'the Cabinet 6f Great Britain, on these great and important points. With regard to the' encomiums which had .'been bestowed upon the conatitt. -of the Army and Naq, iie•was ready . . • -re , ,e 1 join in hui lie did nOt profess have a know ledge of those topict siifficiently particular to noi!lify him to gi venitich of,an opiniooon them t he believed the • praises, however; to, be %Veil bestowed on the . candba of both the Services. The leight Hon. Gentleman who opened this discussion to-night, had entered on an EstiMate. of the Establishment of France, by way of justification of the present pro posed Estimate of this Country. To this it wasob senyable, that it. was. no greater now in comparison with - its dominion; thatait was under the House of Bourbon ; but if it Were soT he Wonid say that all this preparation was unnecessary,on the principle on which the necessity •of it was maintained by Ministers, namely, to chew to France that -We are ready to vindi. cate our Rights; and support. our Honour, which he hoped we should- always be able to do. But he world ask, was it becoming the Representatives of a great Nation, who had a charatter left that was worth pre serving, who were ready, and whom all the world knew to be ready, to vindicate our Honour and maintain our Rights, to be taking pains to say we will do those things? Might not that be as well left to he inferred from what we had already done ; and did it in the least degree contribute to raise our charac ter by this parade' of it ,? He thought such language better omitted: The French had no information to receiveorr the subjett, either of our willingness or ability to repel any mead: that was made upon either by land -or sea. Nor did he believe the French had any - disposition to 'attack .us, and that witea had. happened between os and Frat'ce had made Frltece lest. waling • than othqrwise she might have been to engage with : us. Now. upon the principle of doing as - we would= be done by, we had no more reason to express apprehension of attack from France, than France had a reason 'to apprehend an attack from us. We were told of the preparations of France upon her Coasts, but he owned it gave him no 'alarm, for he did not really think they meditated an attack on this Country. Much - had been said of the preparations . at Boulogne, that men are there at work by torch light, that they go on without intermission night and ally ; but What was the cause of it'? The Invasion of this Country being in -view, • there was no such inference to be drawn, for if - they. repaired that place at all, they must repair •it in the way .they do, for soon the stormy - season - will come on, when they will not be able to do any thing to it.---The truth was,- that nations, like individuals, often enter tained ridiculous apprehensions of danger : we. had often done so, and ailed upon such apprehen sions with regard to Dunkirk ; yet . .Who among us nose would think of demoliakAng that Harbour for the benefit of this Country, and yet that bad been seriously done at one time.—So again when the French Fleet 'sailed for Saint Domingo, apprehen sions were entertained for the safety of Jamaica, until the thing became too absurd to be entertained any longer.—bf a piece with these unfounded ap prehensions were the present, in his opinion.— With regard to the condo of France with Swit zerland, we shoOld follow the advice of the Sec RE TART AT WAR, and not make use of any irritable language, and nos like his Honourable Friend (General MAITLAND) say, he would not give a name to his opinion,'and then deliver it ; but he did . not see what the present proposed Armament of this -fdountry could do with the condo& of the Chief Coasts% with regard' to Switzerland. He then pro ceeded to observe ,that it was not the Armament of . France, or the disposition of France, or Govern ment of France, ought to be the subjea of our ap prehension e we had but one thing worthy of our apprehension with regard to France, and that was the Political Power of France; and that was, in deed, tremendous; but he did not see how the Vote now before the Committee, tended to diminish that power. He wished the House to look at these points, not wiih a microscopic eye, but - with the' eye of common sense, , as every thing ought 'to he viewed, and then, he believed, so many would not differ from him, as, he apprehend ed, did at present differ from him on this occasion.— With respect to the condition of this Country, 'he was- ready to admit, that in comparison With the rest of the world, that was to say, with the rest of the European world, it was splendid to an high degree, both in its resources and its freedom ; hut the way to consider that subject, was to compare its present with its former freedom, and then it would' appear that much of our splendour had been dirtii nishede That the Government of this Country was taken into the' hands which now held it, he rejoiced. No- event, in his opinion, could have been more conducive to the well-being, not only of this Coun try,. but of all mankind, than the removal of the late Administration of this Country ; but at the same•time that be beheld that removal with satis faaion, he could not help saying he should like to see the Governinent• placed in the hands . of an Hon. Friend of his' (Mr. Fox we presume) whom it would be well placed, for he - would eondidt: this Country to the highest pitch of political hap-: pineit ; hut if that was not to be accomplished, hc hoped at least he should never - see it in those hands', in which it was .st) infamously used, for if those per.: sons came -again into Government, this Country would, by their conduEt, be soon irretrievably, plunged into another scene of the same horrors out of which we had just escaped. General MAITLAND explained. The Right Honourable D. RYDER said, that he had no occasion, and, therefore, felt very lit tle. disposition to reply to any attacks that might have been mde upon Mr. - Psyr's charaaer ; for the experience of nineteen years of an active politiS cal, and useful life,' must ever ensure him the gra. dtude , of his Country. Neither did he see that it required to be added to the discussion ovlrch took place' upon the Navy Estiroates, nor' could he pea any difference. of *Opinion; • as • this Vote was evidently founded on the same plan as the increase :of sti,boo Seamen.' If the increase, however, did not take place, he much feared that this Country may bid a long adieu to all its greatness, - But it seemed -that there were some -Gentlemen inclined to 'think'Navies useless, Atmies 'something wOrse ; and even all Continental" Alliances- of any kind ab. solutely detrimental. These -Alliances were event decried in such a manner as perhaps to render the formation .of them impossible, or. at least extremely difficult. 'When we behold the subjugation of 'the Swiss, and the progressive 2"itgrandizetnent of.Franse; was it proper iangt,r. a to say, " let us fit still; and suffer France to devour an the rest of V.tirope; Contented at het forhearancesinernakieg u the liSt Whom siic is likely to sna; at i"' Accordir4 ro the" observatior6 of one Hon. 6entleman..(Mr.eFox) we should reiciain quiet,,in hope's the FirSt Consut would in time omit his anger against its ; and be satisfied with the punishment the had already suffered ; but the same Hon. Gentleman in this af.. forded us but little consolation; for; in his opinion; deserved that punishMent, and the War aught to have terminated, gloriously to France and gloriously for this Country. Thos after all we saw of this formidable rival, both befoie and since the termination of the War, we were advised ttisit Sin!, like patient ( plodding merchants, calculatint -- how much more we could Sell, and considering whether the ware of Stafford Might be able teoeie in the Market with the manufactures of . - ; - eve; • Fot his part, instead of blatiiing His Majesty's Mini sters for not having prefaced the Motitin on the NaVy Estimates by any speech; he should' have thought it perhaps' better if they had not, on thhoc; casion, stated with so much precision 'the grounda which constituted the necettsity for an increase:. The thing was of itself so obviously plain;-as'. tv require neitherarguments: nor any statement of fiiißs The plcitie sentiments of some Gentlemen seemed to him to argue no small degree of incOniistener: Every one present must either remember; or havo read, that at the time when i'Cotttriereial Treaty was negotiating between the two Cotintriet; tits same Gentlemen opposed ir, not so much on ae.: count of the tertas, thie the fear that the bc., nefit we might derive front it may-; in ntly future oc casion, render us unwilling to go to War, evert though we should have provocation. Yet they as: sumed a different tone now when the question wag 'respelling a War for our own innredia te defence, and at a.time when we were every where surrounded by France tir its auxiliaries. The demand Was fait Military Establishment, ready for any 'emergency that may arise, and nor perhaps so much called foi by any subsisting differences, but such ase`Vould place us in a situation to assist others, and perhapfi in some not very far distant day, opposing a b.ariOr to the encroachments of our aspirin neighbours. Into what situation things- may yet subside, UM* be left to time and circumstances to develope..anci no reliance could be placed upon pledges or pre viouri dispositions exhibited by that House.. In theßeigti . of Oueen ANNE, Parliament had passed a resoltitioo, that no Peace should be made with France while it retained an inch of the Spanish territory ; • yet that object was wholly abandoned at the Peace =of Utrecht. So also, in 174.1, the Parliament voted 'that no Peace should be made till the Spaniards should renounce the Right of Search on the Coast of Amee rica ;, but the Treaty of Aix..la..Chapelle Was made without ever mentioning . the subjea. It was tree; that heretofore we had always Peace EstablishMents comparatively small ; but at no former period were we ever totally destituteof all COntincntal Alliances and connections. The House was nor; howeveri now called upon .for a pledge of any kind ; but as our resoutces were but little impaired, he conceived it to he the duty of every man to bear his share in the expenccs of an increased Establishment, ,lest the burthen should afterwards fall with accutnutated • weisTht upon us: He should not,- he said, trouble the House with any farther observations ; but could I not content himself with giving a silent votton ;Ina occasion. Mr. SHERIDAN next addressed the House to the following effed—," I must; Sir, ccinfess, that I feel myself pretty much in the situation of the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, in being unable fully to agree with any .one who has yet ad dressed you, and yet reludant to content myself with a silent vote on a stibjed of such extreme inipor. tance. As, however, there is-one thing in which we seem all to be agreed, namely, that we are in a crisis of extreme peril to the Country ; the Pea» pie- have a right to know the sentiments of those who are in the habit of delivering their opinions upon all questions of great national magnitudes Ire treating this subjefi, I shall not follow, because I do not approve, the example of those who hate made a reference to the merits, the talents, a , htl .-qualities of any individuals ; nor advert even to -the • man (Mr. Fox) who has, together with :another person, been alluded to, and whom of all milers most respel, honour, and revere; It will be more becoming •in me now to prove to the People, that none of us are contending or scrambling for power or emolument, but solely intent on the best rileatis of providing for the Public Honour and Seettrity. I for one am not hostile to any frankness-or rough., ness with Which any Member niay chose to inaniteSt a disposition to speak of the. First C'onsul Mr Hon. Friend (Mr. Wit IT P k it. E AD) has told. us that though convinced of the perfidy Of that person; he would not follow the - example of others, -but abstain from giving his opinion. I must leaVe it to the ' House to -judge of that kind of abstinence, or 'whether he and the other lion. Mettiber (General MAirLAWn) were of the sitake or of different opi nions. Some Gentlemen tell us, that we. have nothing to do with the present state of Franee, as there was no differenee.between it now and in the reign of the Bourbons, except in .the extent 'of power,---the extent of power I- as if that was to make no-difference at. all I or at least but very little. I will grant that , thereis no great differeneebetween our reasons- for continuing in peace .now, and our concluding it in June last, but I • maintain, that Prance. has .since manifested a disposition which ought.to put us more upon our guard, and portico. larly, in-the conduft it.adopted towards Switzerland, where ; under -the-pretence-Of yielding \them protec. ti0n,..,,7and.. securing them - their tranquillity, free, independent, .and once happy men,- . were first frau. dulently 'entrapped,. and afterwards basely crushed.. I am-willing to :speak of theFirstConsu4of France with respcd, ill can ; but it is not ray foul t,.uor can I help it, if his conclud is such that-a bare recital of fads most appear to lie invedive., In the outset, I wistt to have it observed, thatj 'am' as strongly solici tous for Peace as any man can hie,' because rdo not • • conceive War to be a remedy for any of the griev. antes we have to complain of.: Even the treatment experienced by the unteyrtunate People ofSwitterland o though stadent to excite honourable and - indignant feelings in this Assembly? was nut of - such a nature as to be necessarily ccnsitc:e4 as icaze. of IrTar,