The Sun. — London, England, 1862-02-14 00:00:00

A '...a.m...,,4:::.f , SUN:.' LONDON, !R!DAY EVTINING 4 VtBRUARY FR, 1862. 4ninomor prising 179 parishes, possessed 10 such.schools, and in tors:wall, with 71 parishes, only one school was connected with the Privy Council. That was no discredit to a prelimi wary system, but it would be a discredit if they could not 'make the system meet these great and pressing and wants. All the districs he had named contributed to the grants, and it was therefore a matter exceedingly desirable that they should receive a share of the money which they had paid. The way in which it had been proposed this should be done was by introducing a lower kindof teaching. But there was a great difficulty. The present system of grants was such that if the teaching was good the grant was ample, but they had no real check upon the teachers. It seemed to him the only condition under which they could possibly recommend, without reckless expenditure, that teachers of an inferior class should be employed, would be that there should be sine collateral and independent proof that the teacher had done his duty. That would only be done in individual exa mination of the scholars. Another fault of the Privy Coun cil grants was its complexity. This arose from the Govern ment appropriating and paying the grants. The number of people with whom they had to deal was extraordinary. In 1861 the number of schools under inspection was 9,957 ; the number of certificated teachers was 8,698, besides a large number of uncertificated teachers ; the number of pupil teachers was 16,287; the number of Queen's scholars, 2,527 —making altogether a respectable army of 38,331 persons. To most of these persons they paid money directly. They paid money to 16,277 pupil teachers, whose salaries varied, beginning at £lO and increasing by £2 10s. annually, until they reached £2O. They also paid 8,698 certificated teachers, so that the correspondence and payments of the department were exceedingly large and complicated, It was a depart ment of the Government co-operating with persons who had a right to the utmost attention and respect, because they risme forward voluntarily to cone ibute their aid. They were not always men of business, and their correspondence was not only very large, but sometimes irrelevant. He remem bered an instance where it was desired to apprentice the wife of a schoolmaster, and after a long correspondence the application was refused. The party aggrieved afterwards requested an interview wite him (Mr. Lowe?, on which oc casion the whole case was re-stated, and although the origi nal refusal was referred to, the party went home and again reopened the whole question, , There was another point he might mention. They had to take their information as to the fact from parties no doubt very honourable and re spectable, but who were interested in putting the fact in one point of view. Under such circumstances he thought it was excessively desirable that some simplification should be attempted. The present system was eminently destructive to the responsibility of the house. It was one of immense complexity, and the department had the power of saddling this country with very heavy expenses, without the House of Commons knowing anything about it. A few official and technical words might be inserted in a minute without the subject being properly discussed. It was an indispensable condition to a permanent system of education that Parlia ment should have the fullest control over it, and that could not be obtained without very great simplification of the pre sent machinery. On the other hand, there was no doubt that this system of complexity was intended, and did ope rate in the first instance, as a protection to the public. He thought, therefore, it would be very wrong to do away with all the present safeguards without providing the public with some sort of equivalent. No doubt the proper per son to be responsible to the Committee of Privy Council should in each case be the manager of the school. But even then, how could they secure that the money was spent for the purpose for which it was given? The ma nagers were a fluctuating and changing body, and the department might find itself dealing with persons; by no 'means worthy of confidence. He should not feel justified in proposing that public money should be paid over to the managers of the schools without some guarantee that it would be properly applied. He could, however, suggestno other remedy than that suggested before, They could not track the application of the money after it was once paid over to the managers, but they might satisfy themselves that it must have been on the whole well applied, by in troducing examination as a check. (Hear, hear.) The commissioners reported that even in the best schools only one-fourth of the children attained the highest class, and they also reported that the schools bad not yet succeeded in educating to any considerable extent the bulk of the children who had passed through them. This was a strange and startling statement, and he must also fairly state to the house, the inspectors reported that in 90 schools reading, writing, and arithmetic were taught ex cellently and well. The two reports at first sight might seem to be utterly at variance, but it must not be forgotten that the commissioners had the report of the inspector s before them when they came to their conclusion. The two statements might possibly be . reconciled without throwing any imputation upon the inspectors. The fact was, that the object of the present system, as Earl Russell had said, was to set up a type or model of education, and therefore the quality of the education and the quality of the teacher were the principal objects regarded in all the established schools. The inspectors, no doubt, properly reported on the qualifi cations of the teachers ; but they had not said that although reading, writing, and, arithmetic were excellently well taught they were equally well learnt, When, however, they came to a permane:nt system, quantity was what they must more look to. He had come to the conclusion that inspection, as opposed to examination, was not, and never could be, a se tcient test of the efficiency of a school. It would detect gross errors, it would give valuable advice and as sistance is many ways, and be of great use, but it was not calculated to test in a crucial manner the efficiency of a school. According to the minute of the Privy Council, examination was part of the inspection, but it had never been carried out by all the inspectors. The fact was there was a distinct conflict between the commissioners and the inspectors, which it was difficult to reconcile except in the manner he had suggested. Another objection to the reports of the inspectors wastheir use of abstract phrases as to the efficiency of schools. They dealt with the abstract instead of the concrete. The inspectors gave a general no tion as to the schools, but they treated them as something distinct from the scholars. They failed in giving any pre cise information. They examined a few children and made their report, which was doubtless a very true report as to quality, but not as to quantity. Their reports were fall of such phrases as " the average proficiency of the children," " the general efficiency," " the decided tendency," " the imvpresaion on the whole," "a general review." They spoke of impalpable essences, such as " the moral atmosphere," and tone of the school, and mental condition, not of the children, but of the school in the abstract. However valuable this might be, it was no test of the inspector's opinion of the efficiency of the teacher, pro nounced after a long and Careful examination. The real truth was, the quality of education depended upon the 'mind of the master—the quantity of education depended upon the amount of labour given by the master. 'Wh a t had been obtained was the qualifications of the master, what had not been obtained was the amount of his labour. Inspection had failed to ascertain that point, and if con ducted on the same principle it always would fail. He was now investigating, as well as he could, if there be an anta gonism between the commissioners and the inspectors, which was right. He felt confirmed in his views that the commissioners were right by the tone of the controversy last yea-. Supposing that 90 per cent. of the children had been properly educated, one would have supposed that the language which would have been held by those interested in schools would have been, ex amination was superfluous, for the schools would bear any test; but instead of that the language held was, that examination was ruinous. One gentleman of great authority had devised this theory, that the first generation of children in schools inherited a physical incapacity to learn --that in fact unless their fathers had been taught to read, write, and cypher, it would be impossible for them to learn —that merely mechanical results must follow a moral and religious training. Had that dictum been known to Dio genese he might have saved himself the trouble of light ing his lamp in his search after an honest man, for he would only have had to catch the first man who could read, write, and cypher, and then he would have got him. (Lenghter.) There was a town in England, the name of 'which he would not mention, in which there were two sch ools, and each received a grant of £240 a year. The one was strongly in favour of the revised code, being satisfied that after all deductions, it would get £350. The other Was as strongly against the revised code, being satisfied that, atter all deductions, it would get only £ll5. He quoted these examples to show how little the report of the ins p ec tor , gave a really precise or definite notion of the efficiency et the teaching in the schools. Tho fact was, if they meant to niuk e the system permanent, they must make up their minds en what principle they were to go. What was the object of inspection ? Was itsiroply to make things rleasant—to Dive the schools as much as could be got out of ho public purse, indepeadent of their efficiency ? Were they' in eat nest? bid they mean that the grants should not be only bub..idies and gilts, hut fruitful of good to the tam ,st Extent ? This .was the only question —were they for c flicieeey or subsidy ? (Hear, hear.) Was a school to and therefore yoor, or be thou relieved because it was bad, was rflieisnt and in good eireurestate e s ? cause it He ght there could be nothing fe her than this. H there were two champions in th e e sts—he would sad y 1 nothing of his own department, exult that he could take the liberty of ol , ser sing that the report of the commis sioners made the situation of Lord Granville and himself' absolutely untenable, for they felt that they could not sit still in the face of the report without showing the house and the country that they had done all in d their power t o reme dy this state of things. Bien ere asserting saidand h th t Th a ' e t nfnysapelocy found asserting the e one-fourth of of i - fie c hild re n were prop ano ther. The commissioners nine-tenths erly instructed, while the inspectors con tended that were either excellently or fairly taught. The department of education had to judge between the two. 'What was it to do? a Whatcloud honest of u uld— not to leave this matter under neemrtaaninstyh'o. would go to the schools and department had said they would asp eal to facts, and not going reasoning a priori, they examine the- children child by child, and then they would know whether the commissioners or the inspectors were right. (Hear, hear.) If the inspectors were right thecde partment would have been vindicated, and would havecar ri, d a great point ; if they were wrong a great evil would have been remedied. He bad no doubt the comnessroners were right, judging 4 . -rex their authority, and the enormous amount of confirmation they had received from the admit pion made by all controversialists pn this question, who de dared they would not subedit to am Suds erne,ial test as examination. They had Mid, issue a circular to the in spectors. Ent it would be trifling with the house to suppose it would have the desired effect. He believed they must en , list the human passions ) that they mast enlist hope end fear to do the work for them—that they must hold the prospect of sufficient remuneration if their children were properly taught, and of loss if net. He would now proceed to the question of expense. Ho held that whatever they decided upon the question of education, they must also decide upon the question of expense. It was no duty of his to starve any system which the House of Commons supported. It was their duty to carry out a proper system of education, and at the same time although they could not control a large ex penditure, that there should be no extravagance. They should see that the public obtained an equivalent for their expenditure, and that there was no inequality in the grants. He had taken a book of 250 schools taking grants. The children of these schools Were supposed to receive lOs. a-head, that being tonsidered a fair sum for each child to earn. Ile had taken the first tw'elVe cases in which the grants were highest. 'the first school was receiving from the pulite purse, instead of lOs. for each child, £1 3e. 4d. ; the second, £1 7s. 6d. s and the others various sums down to 198., being nearly double the amount the commissioners thought each child ought to be paid, He took another book : the first case gave V. Bs. II d. ; the next, £1 78. sd. ; and so on, down to the lowest, 18s. 9d. It seemed to him that that was a very serious question. When they were told that any change in the grant must diminish the assistance given to the schools, they were never told what the actual amount of that assist ance was. The fact was a great many schools were receive ing under the system a great deal more than they Were entit ed to, and no system was entitled to support which did not make provision for remedying that inequality. There were three sources of expenditure which went to make up the income of a school. The first was the sub scriptions of charitable persons, the second wee the school-penco given by the parents, and the third was the grant from the council. It was sup posed that the council only gave a third of the sub scriptions, but the fact was that the subscriptions given by the managers of the schools and the grants of the council were exactly equal, being lls. 6d. each. But if they took into account the training colleges and other matters, the grant from the council became 15s. 6d. as against lls. 6d. subscription, or in the proportion of four to three. They found that the capitation grant was often wasted, and people did not know what to do with it. It seemed improper that the council should pay the whole salary of the moil teachers when they professed to encourage voluntary efforts, and yet that amounted to £300,000. They, moreover, thus en couraged the employment of pupil teacheta In preference to others, and that seemed to be extravagance. The grant to the masters was another instance of the extravagance of the system. They paid the augmentation grant to the masters, and putting the minimum at £45, a case which never arose, yet the grant was always paid. He re received £3O augmentation grant, £1.5 for teaching pupil teachers, £5 for teaching them drawing, £3 for teaching drawing to the scholars, and £5 for teach ing Welsh and Gaelic to the pupil teachers—in all £5B, This aid was given in its most expensive and indiscri minate form. There was another point Which he would wish to criticise. The commissioners reported that the whole ;ye• tem of education had been devised prior to experiment, and that it did not meet the existing state of things. The system was settled on the supposed age of the pupils, and they had assumed a supposed state of attendance which did not exist. In the average of schools 70 per cent. of the children were under 10, 20 per cent. under 11 years of age, and 11 per cent. under 12 years of ago. The result was that a great proper , . tion of the children left school at or before 11 years of age; 89 per cent. of those who left school were under 12 years of age, 70 per cent. under 10 years, and 80 per cent. under 11 years. When thehouse was estimating what establishment it would keep up they mustbear in mind that they were making arrangements for the education of the children of the very poorest classes—those who lived by their labour, and of those children 70 per cent. left •school under 10 years, and 80 per cent. under 11 years of age. That fact had been overlooked in the whole controversy. This state of things had grown worse instead of :better, and it was for children who left school at this early age that the state provided a long array of 16,000 certificated teachers, advanced books, and well got up maps. The children who remained at the schools after 12 years of age, and who received the benefit, were not of the very poorest class, for whom this system was specially intended, He ventured to say it was their duty not to interfere by their philanthropy with the parent in the edu cation of his child—(hear, hear)—but to endeavour, while the child remained at school, to make its education as com plete as possible—to get the child to go to school at an early age—to provide for its regular attendance—to spread edu cation as wide as possible, and what they could not thus effect to supplement by a really efficient system of evening schools, which would afford the opportunity of recovering lost ground. He now came to another point. He had shown that they were in communication with some 38,300 persons, all of whom, in some way or other, received money from the Government, and between these people and the Government a kind of golden bond was established which they seemed to think was indissoluble. We had no right to blame them. It always had been so, and always would be so. If the Government was improvident to make such an arrangement with so large a body of persons, they had only themselves to thank for it. The managers of schools felt that they had subscribed their money and given their time and trouble in founding the schools, and had done all this relying on a certain amount of Government sun, ort, and they felt, and no wonder, that it would be a great hardship on them if that support were not continued. Then the same thing applied to teachers, pupil-teachers, and training colleges. As to training colleges, the managers considered that every part of the system should be kept up in its integrity, in order that there might be a sufficient number of young men in the colleges. These feelings were not unnatural. Government had :created them; but he wished to point out that such a state of things might bring about most disastrous results, and that, like Pope's Atossa, they would find themselves " by the means defeated in the end," and that, instead of the grant being a grant for na tional education, it would become a grant for sustaining vested interests in the existing machinery of education, and that ministers, finding the fearful opposition they would have to encounter from such a phalanx in any attempt to divert the grant to its original object, they would relinquish the attempt altogether, and no government would be found bold enough to face the opposition they would meet with. Now they felt that it was necessary to deal with this sub ject as soon as possible. They waited three years while the commissioners were deliberating. The reason they wore anxious to deal with the subject was the increasing number of the claimants. They felt that such a state of things would arise that it was necessary to deal with the subject at once, it being foreseen that if the house did not upon the earnest representation of the committee put a stop to the evil, all control over the distribution of the grant would pass out of the hands of the Privy C oun cil and of Parliament into the hands of those who were working the system, while any demand that the latter chose to make upon the minister would lbe supported by such an army of stipendiaries that no minister would be found courageous enough to withstand it. Such a state of things would be ma=t dangerous and unconstitutional— because if, on the one hand, a minister obtained undue in fluence over so largo a body of people it would certainly be most unconstitutional; while, on the other hand, if so large a lAdy of men were to possess more influence over the mi nister than ho had over them, then, indeed, there would be a most dangerous assault upon the exchequer, and it would become necessary for the taxpayers to be on the alert. (Hear.) Suppose, for instance, that in his present attempt to vindicate the proper principle on which education grants should be made, he were defeated and overthrown, who would dare take up the gauntlet again ; and, if no one did, what prospect was left but a gradual increase of these schools and of the expense, and of the system which every one must condemn ? (Hear, hear.) To show that he was not drawing on his imagination, he would read an extract from a publication, Issued by a society of schoolmasters. The right hon. gentleman then read an article from the publication in question. It stated that the revised code, if carried into operation, would lower the social status of schoolmasters, and that in no other profession would an attempt be made to affect them without tbo concurrence and advice of the members of the profession themselves. That was they wished the Government to consult them whether they were to reduce their advantages or not, which was very much like Turgot asking the chickens with what sauce they would like to be eaten. (Laughter.) The ar• tide proceeded to say that constant persevering and united action were required before this could be remedied. One would think that one was reading a manifesto of the anti-corn law league. It proceeded to say that if they did not now exert themselves they would deserve all the indignity that could be heaped upon them, and it urged upon teachers the necessity for immediate action, and that they Bh ,, u ' d take advantage of the present state of the political atmosphere by letting members of Pailiturent understand th .t there were 9,000 teachers who possessed the elective franchise, and that if members wished for their votes they must refuse to support the re ised code. He (Mr, Lowe) thoug:ht:it was high time to look into this matter, especially when be compared the language used with the claims pre'erred. For instance, he found a gentleman of high authority writing to a newspaper that the teachers "had a right to expect a certain amount of repose and freedom from anxiety," and that "they ought not to be worried by examination," nor " worked like horses in a nor "victimised by additional drudgery," which ,vas described as a kind of " sneer," at their present position. whieh such claims tihieat(Mr. Lowe) wished it to be particularly understood although ho could not help smiling at the manner in were advanced, all unnatural that those who felt themselves wronged or a b b ; e u v t e t : y be me W a Zz . ged should endeavhoeudridtonaovte consider r t h e wrong t m their ow political or otherwise, but he could not help, a t tem under which person s the P sam esh time, observing that a sys * evidently occupied by this bo d y be f placed in the position wisely inypoutptrsons, was one which Parliament would do hear.) He looked upon it that thisaw as gan end to. (Hear, : 1; with any o e u ne pe o em f d t i h gt h e het r h e s s muo u u l s ts ee of the system that was not foreseen. mould distinctly understand that thougl p though 'h e at some of these expressions, he was not disrespect to this body of men, who were only doing what men placed in such a position were ewe ti) do, It anybody rat was to blame in the matter, it was those who had put them in that position. Until this system of enormous creation of vested interests was put an end to, he maintained that the educational Vote would never be under the control of Par liament. (Hear, hear.) There was one other matter, and that was that the object of this vote was undotibtedly to call forth voluntary effort. in one ease it had siteceeded ; it had raised a gobtl deal bf Money, but he was afraid that _ _ that money had been raised mainly from a class who could ill spare it—namely, from clergymen. (Hear, hears) He could only say with Caesar, who, When traversing the field of Pharsalia, and seeing the dead bodies of his soldiers, exclaimed, " Hoc volerun t." He believed that the grant s hitherto made ) instead of calling forth, had crippled, and in fact, almost extinguished ) voluntary energy. They had in fact been tineducatirrg the public tuitid froth the voluntary system, and that evil, ho feared, they could not hope mitch to diminish. The house, he thought, Would be surprised 'o learn that the teahaine. eolleget Which had tindolibtedly been established with the best of motives, were almost en tirely supported by the GoVernmeht. No less than OP per cent. of the eoet of that et Cheltenham was defrayed by Go- Verertneht, and the proportion that the Government paid towards the support of the training colleges was on an ave rage 00 per cent, He believed it was impossible again to raise the voluntary spirit. There used to be a jealousy of Privy Council grants, but that had quite gone, and had not been seen for some years. It was remarkable, also, that those Who had founded the schools, at great personal sacrifices, for the purposes of education were the meet opposed to anything like a test being spplied to them, to that, if conducted on right principles, they might be confirmed in their course, but if in error, that that course might be amended, The op posite would naturally have been expected, but he was sorry to say that the dislike to any such test was most violent, probably because they felt the voluntary spirit had sunk so low that they had nothing to hope from it, and that the re sult of the examination might be to withdraw something they could very ill spare. As he had already said, he thought it impossible again to raise the voluntary spirit, and that being so, he thought it became the duty of the Government to see whether they could not adopt some course which would dispense with the necessity for its ree suscitation, and whether they could not make the grant de pend on something which would be evidence that a good education was given. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the commissioners that it would not he wise to interfere with the denominational basis of the system, with its religious foundation, and with the right of each sect to control its own religious teaching. He also thought that the annual grants should be abolished, and replaced by a uniform capi tation grant. This was, in fact, the turning point of the question, for be saw no other means, of gs tang rid of the evils he had described. The next question was, how far they could agree with what the commissioners prof osed. The commissioners proposed a grant from the county rate on examination, and a grant from the central government for attendance merely. But the Privy Council could not agree to the county rate being charged. There was an evil and a good connected with the system of charging local rates for such purposes ; the evil being that a national bur den was thrown on a narrow area, and the good being that it secured local management and supervision. But the pro position of the committee contrived to retain the evil and to dispense with the good ; for, if accepted, the country gentlemen would have no authority over the expenditure, but all they could do was to appoint a totntnittee of educa tion ; that committee was to appoint examiners, tilt be exa miners Were to examine, and on the result of the examina tion the county rates were to be charged. He did not think the country gentlemen would be likely to accept this merely ministerial office. Then, it the capitation grant was to be paid from a central c ffice, the question arose on what terms it was to be paid. The commissioners i ecommended that part of it should be paid for the attendance of the chil dren on the inspector's report, and part upon the result of the examination. The objection, however, to that was that it would not answer the purpose in view, which was to increase the quantum of education, and not the quality. They wished to bring as many children out ofl every hun dred under education as possible. The result of this pro. posal of the commissioners would be that one-half would be received almost as a matter of course, and the other half would probably be earned by the head classes of the school. If the Privy Council had adopted this plan they might have conciliated support, but they would have de feated their object. To show that this was not a mere fancy of his own he referred to a letter which had been written to the editor a newspaper. The writer, in a transport of in dignation, asked whether it could be supposed that the Privy Council intended to bring about a result which would, in fact, be a withdrawal of all assistance from many schools; and then, as a proof that such would be the result, referred to one of the national schools, in which, upon an examina tion, the inspector found that even in the highest class only three could read or write, and none could cipher. He (Mr. Lowe) considered that the principle by which the grant should be governed should be a jealous and an engrossing principle, providing that the grant should only be made where the school had fulfilled all the conditions necessary to success, and implying the excellence of the school. It had therefore been decided that there should be one grant only, and that that grant should be based upon the test of examination alone. The examination must prove an ex pensive and a troublesome process, and if the public were saddled with that, it had a right to the fullest benefit that could be got. It was therefore proposed that the grant should be entirely dependent on the efficiency of the pupils in reading, writing, and arithmetic ; that after the 100 at tendances by a pupil, the school should receive Id. for each of his subsequent attendances, and that this sum should be reduced one-third if a scholar failed upon examination in reading, one-third if he failed in writing, and one-third if he failed in arithmetic. They had also made rules respect ing ventilation, lighting, &c., and provided penalties wher ever there were 30 pupils without a pupil teacher. That was the substance of the minute,to which was to be added the pro positien for a fourth class of mestere, which they had intro duced in order to extend the benefits of thesystem. The pupil teacher would have received only £2O up to the time of his being appointed,which he thought would be a great incentive to good conduct. He now came to a branch of the subject which he thought would be most interesting to the house. He had to inform them that it was not intended for the present to extend the operation of the revised minute to Scotland. (Hear.) Scotland had petitioned 'against any interference at the present moment, and Scotland had many claims for an attentive hearing. She had an educational organisation 200 years old, and expected soon to devise a satisfactory system for herself. (Hear.) With respect to infants, it had been represented to them that it would be straining their principle of examination too much to extend it to infants under six years old—(a laugh)—in fact there was such a concurrence of opinion opposed to them en that point, that all he could do was frankly to confess that he had been wrong in proposing that arrangement. (Hear.) It was good that every encouragement should be given to the attendance of infants at school, and for that reason it was not proposed to require examination. He did not put the change as a concession, but as the confession of an error. (Hear.) They proposed to make infants entitled i to the capitation grant without examination. They pro posed that the schoolmaster should receive a penny for each infant after 200 attendances. Another sul.ject they had to consider was the training colleges. Properly speaking these institutions should be v o l un t ary ; b ut the fact was , that in most cases the Government contributed 90, and in one case 99 per cent. to their support. They asked the managers for increased subscriptions, by withdrawing the lecturers in geography and some other subjects, and by giving up one-fourth of the Queen's scholars. He thought that their position on this point was impregnable, but it had been represented that these colleges were in a position of very great difficulty, and therefore, deeming that the whole question of the training colleges would require re consideration, they thought it better to leave the training colleges as they stood. (Hear.) They recalled, therefore, the propositions respecting the Queen's scholars and the reduction of the lectureship. They had also withdrawn the proposition requiring 16 days' attendance from the children in the month immediately preceding examination. The next' point was the forfeitures arising from the absence of pupil teachers. He proposed now that the limit should be one to 40 children instead of 30, and of 80 instead of 60. They proposed to give a honorary certificate after two years in the training schools, and he thought the possession of that certificate should give them a preference when seeking employment as teachers. A proposition which had created a great deal of discussion was the age at which children were to leave the elementary schools. If they left at 11 and were eligible for the evening schools until 13, a whole year was lost, and therefore they proposed that the child should enter the evening school at 12 instead of 13. They did this because the child attending the evening school might be earning money for its parents. These were the amendments they proposed, which they expected would considerably increase the receipts under the grant, and as in their case the amount would not depend on examination, these infants would be so many " Little Treasures" to the manager. (Laughter.) The first of the objections to the . minute was, that the religions basis of the schools was not sufficiently insisted on,and that the inspectors onlyinquired respecting, children in the ewe of members of the Church of England. row this arose from a misunderstanding of the inspector's functions. He was in Net a servant of the Arch bishop of Canterbury as well as of the Privy Council, and it was in the former capacity that he inquired into the re ligious question. He made no report to the Council on that subject. Another objection was, that they were drawing toe sharp a line between secular and religious instruction. The Privy Council assisted all denominations, from the Roman Catholics, who might be considered as atone pole of the re ligious world, to the Jews, who were at the other. It was not t be expected it would interfere with all these reli gions, and this sharp line was merely drawn because in the case of the Church of England the inspector acted in a double capacity. He thought that there need not be a sharp line between religion, and reading, writing, and arithme tic. There were some intervening points that might be cut out, and he would boldly add that there was a por tion of the religious instruction that might be taken away. He meant those portions of Scripture history, such as dates and the names of kings, which merely burthened the memory, and was of no value in religious teaching, (Hear, hear.) He thought it was taking a narrow view of the ques tion to say that there was . any opposition between religion and the acquirement of facility in reading, writing, and arithmetic. He could understand how the boy taught to Toad in infancy would tun to his Bible iu after years, and , n a similar :wayjwould avail himself of his writing facilities With respect to the religious safeguards, the diocesan com mittee of t xeter had testified that they were as strong on the mind as in the old code. It could not be too often re- panted that the amount of the aid did not entirely depend Upon the proficiency of the scholars In reading, writing, and arithmetic; but even assuming that additional responsibi lity would be thrown upon the managers of church schools, those gentlemen ()tight not to shrink from assuming it; for nothing could be worse than for the Church to show itself reluctant or incompetent to discharge the office of training up the children of this country in "the nurture and admo nition of the Lord." Itoweter, it Was prdposed to alter the fortn of the minute so that no school should receive assist ance till it had been reported on by the inspector ; that the inspector sliontd nut ekttitiiii6 sthool till he was satisfied that there was nothing in the state of that sehodt *hith re quired the grant to be withheld ; and that the power of with • dratiring the grant should eittend to faults of religious in struction iii Church of tnglatid Width alone this queAtioh belonged. Heliow tame to the question of the loss which schools woifld sll9taitt iip the he* Code: That loss, he Considered, had been very erroneously edriiptited. The plan generally adopted was to take a particular school, to estimate NI hat the children in it would earn if the revised code were adopted, that estimate being seldom made in a very friendly spirit; and then to assume that the difference between that sum and the ekisting grant was the measureS of that school's loss. Now, in the first plate, it was quite true that some schools would not receive so much as lAte- Wore ) and it was intended that they should not, for they at present received a great deal Mere theft they ought to do. It had been argued that, as the commissioners Considered that three fifths of the children would earn the grant, they by implication inferred that the remaining two-fifths would not, and that thus the grants would be reduced by two fifths. But that reasoning was inconclusive, because, in the first place, one of those twc-fifths would include the children who attended less than 50 days, and who therefore earned nothing; and the other fifth would include those who, attending between 50 and 100 days, would earn Very little, so that the loss on account of the two-fifths who, it was estimated, would not earn anything would in reality be Very little. (Hear.) It Was impossible for him to calcu late how much the schools would receive, but there were certain data which he would mention, and from which every gentleman might draw his own deductions. His be lief was, that at the date when the minute would come into operation, vile, the 31st of March, 1863, there would be a million children in their schools. The maximum which could be earned by these children would be 15s. a bead, or X 75 ~ 00C; what the Government wished them to earn was 10s. a head on the average. At present the number who attended long enough to receive ti , e capitatiou grant was 42 per cent.—in other words 42 per cent. attended on more I than 176 of the 220 days on which the school was opened in each year ; and surely by the 17 per cent. who formed the difference between the 42 per cent. and the 25 per cent. who the commis loners say were well instructed, the grant might with moderate diligence be secured. (Hear, hear.) Again, the children who attended upwards of 100 days were 63.7 per cent., and the commissioners Were of opinion that besides moral instruction, all those might be taught to read and write, and to perform such arithmetical operations as were required in ordinary life. If NO, there was a still larger margin—namely, between the 25 Fer cent. of the already well-instructed and this 63.7 per cent.—by whom the grant might be earned. The utmost sum which a child could earn if it attended twice every day the ethool Was open, namely 440 times, would be £1 Bs. 4d.; and the sum that might be earhei, by attending twice in 176 days was £1 Is. ; while that which might be earned by alt infant would vary between one penny and one pound. Thefailures would, of course, generally be amongst the children who paid least; for, of course, if any were rejected it would probably be those who attended the shortest time. If a child who had attended 101 times was rejected, the loss would only be a penny, whereas if it had attended the whole 440 times it would have been £1 Bs. 4d, It should be remembered that all these calculations as to the effect of the new code were based_upon the existing state of attendance, whereas it was hoped and expected that the code would itself supply a great stimulus to better attendance. At present the child who went to school 176 days in the year earned 55., and there was no pecuniary inducement for him to attend oftener, but the new code would supply a steady and regular pressure on him to go as often as possible. Mr. Scott, one of the most intelligent witnesses examined by the commissioners,stated that the effect of the c,pitation grant had been to make the managers of schools go round to the parents and canvass them for scholars, and therewas reason to hope that the new code would act in exactly the same way towards improving the regularity of attendance. They might also hope that it would tend to greater eccnamy of management by the greater freedom of contract which it would give the ma nagers in dealing with their servants, with whom they would be able to make their own bargains. No doubt cases had been urged which they would very much have wished, if it had been possible, to consider. It had been said, for instance, that a school which might do very little in the way of actual teaching, might be the means of much moral good to a neighbourhood. That was quite true ; and such schools were very fitting objects of missionary exertions ; but they were not fitting objects for assistance from the Committee of the Privy Council. Sunday schools conferred a great moral good upon the community ; but no one had ever pro posed that they should be helped by the state ; and it had only last year been determined to grant no further relief to ragged schools. (Hear.) The new code could not in any case come into operation for a year and a quarter, and in some instances it had not come into operation for a year longer. There would therefore be ample time to prepare for the change; and from the moment it was known that the scheme had been adopted, there would doubtless be an increase of efficiency over what would be the case if the schools were to be examined to -morrow, But they were told that there were schota where the children were migra tory, and where it would be very difficult for them to earn the grant. He admitted that such was the case, but the question was whether these were the schools to which the code ought b apply ? Whether, in fact, the State ought to be called upon to provide an expensive machinery for those who would not take the trouble to attend ? (Cheers.) They had a right to exoect that the working classes, for whom they did so much, should second the exertions which the State and which benevolent persons made on behalf of their offspring. (Hear.) The cost of educating a child was 30s. a year; and of that the parent only paid 75., while the Go vernmeat and the managers each contributed Ils. 6d. It was too much then to expect them to contribut e to a school if the parents were not able to meet them half way, though he was quite willing to admit that cases of this kind showed the harshness which was inseparable from the operation of general rules. He should be glad if they were able both to help schools because they were efficient, and to help schools because they were needy. But if they had two systems the whole time of the department would be frittered away in settling in which class each particular school should be placed. On the other hand, if they were to have only one system, would they lower the standard so as to degrade the whole fabric in order that they might aid a few special cases ? He could not premise that the revised code should be either economical or efficient. The present system, how ever, was neither ; whereas he could promise them that the new one should be either the one thing or the other. If it was not efficient it would at all events be cheap, and if it was not cheap it would be efficient. (Loud cheers.) He could put it no higher than that. If it was a Government system of education he could force the people to avail themselves of it; but as it was a voluntary one it rested with the work. ing classes to say whether they would accept the induce ments which it held out to them to send their children to school. He now came to the question of vested interests. Although it was argued in the abstract that those interests should be maintained, there was hardly a pamphlet that had been written on the subject which didnot propose some sweeping infraction of them, For example, it had been gravely proposed to transfer the whole burden from the public to the school managers. It had always been admitted that the present system was a tentative and experimental one, and while, therefore, justice ought undoubtedly to be done, no one had a fight to complain of any change that might be introduced with a single view to the interests of education and the public good. But the question of vested interests had been chiefly discussed in reference to the pub lic teachers—probably on account of the large number of persons who were concerned—otherwise he did not see why their case should be more debated than the grants for draw ing or Welsh. Talking about Welsh, he had heard of rather a tragical case, in which a person complained that his school would gain no grant, because the position of the schoolmaster was similar to that of Hotspur : " This is the deadly spite that angers me My wife can speak no English, I no Welsh." The master could not understand the pupils, or the pupils the master; and so the school earned no money. (Laughter.) The position of the masters, as described by the commis sioners, was that of persons taken out of a rank of life where they would naturally have been set to learn a mechanical trade, educated at the public expense, and put into a position where they received about £lOO a year for seven hours and a half of work per diem on four days a week, with six or seven weeks vacation every year. Mr, Wilkinson, the assistant commissioner for the metropolitan district, stated that the masters in London earned £122 a year; but that they were generally very much discontented with their lot. They complained that their remuneration was inade quate, and that they were not sufficiently appreciated. The church masters' grievance was that their schools were on the one hand often spoilt by the interference of the clergy, and that on the other if they were successful the clergyman claimed all the credit. The British masters also complained of the lowness of pay, but they were free from priestly tyranny. The result in both cases, however, was that the most talented men retired as quickly as they could from the profession. Such was Mr. Wilkinson's account ; but it could not be denied that the position of the masters had hitherto been one of great prosperity ; and if they were so discontented under the present system, it was not won derful that they should find fault with the revised code. As Mr. Robinson said, they too often forgot that it was the cul ture they had received at the public expense that had made them what they were. He hoped that the house would not y worked upon by their complaints. No doubt not b be e theytoo violently i t o t er i that oughtlen tl they found elements of discontent eve n to have justice done to them ; but it m ust in the system which was now i n o p era ti on . Their argument was, that so long as they performed the conditions which were annexed to the grant, they were as much entitled to dui Migthentation as an officer in the army or the fI ins to his pay. The teachers were not quite right in saying that the grant depended upon their fulfilment of the conditions required by the Privy Council. The grant was giten to them for the purposes of the distribution of the grant to the pupils, but it was not necessarily upon their fulfilment of all the conditions anne±ed to it that it depended, for it might be lost to them by the miscondtict of the managers, for which they could be in no way responsible, and over which they had no control. If, for instance, the manager gate no return to the Committee of Council that he employed the teacher, if the repairs of the building were so neglected as to bring down an unfavourable report from the government inspector, or supposing the manager refused to receive the visits of the inspector—Upon any one of these grounds the grant might be lost to the teacher, though he had nuthing to do with the misconduct which led to its Withdrawal. This sheited that the teachers put their claim too high this matter, for that cottid net be their property which could be taken from them without any &tilt theirs l and he thought that a precise claim for a particular sum of tootle"' could not be stippofteti. Let the house consider, if it were net esftary that they should compensate the teachers for the loss of the grant Upon its withdrawal, what Cortipensation could they award ? And that was a question that they must answer if they considered that thy had in this case a vested interest to deal with. These teachers had no &VA a fair claim to every consideration that could be extended to them consistently with what was due to the public, but the truth tvas that their salaries had risen from the Wise, he had already mehtioted, and if that rise had occurred contetti , poraneously with the atigmbatai ion grants, it was not, as was supposed, the augmentation grants .vhich the rise was owing. The actual cause of the increase was that the demand for schoolmastetii had far exceeded the supply, and it was net unnatural that those who abated the benefits of that circumstance should suppose the rise in theif salaries to be consequent upon the augmentation. The salaries of schoolmasters were tneastired of course by the conditions of supply and demand, and if a certain qtralification was re quired and the demand exceeded the supply, that qttalifica tion must necessarily increase in value. But what the government did in the matter was to pay the schoolmaster a certain portion of his salary ; and althottgh in making the Cataract between the manager and the teacher all the cir cumstances affecting the salary were necessarily taken into consideration, the government did no more than did the managers in paying the salaries of the teacheta l and if that aid were withdrawn the loss would be in fact the manageri and not the teachers'. And it must also be observed that in this cede the teachers received a Very considerable in demnification. It was urged that this money was with drawn from them never to appear eht more, but it was given again in the capitation grants, and wad only placed more directly tinder the control of the managers, and thus by placing a large atm in the hands of the mana gers, and encouraging the extension of the schools, the government provided a plan which in some way landed to increase the salary of the schoolmaster, while it pre served the market for him. lie thought upon the whole that the class, though it was eiettsable and natural that they should feel very sensitive whets their salaries were concerned, and should put the worst construction Upon the proposition of the Government, had, upon the rational and sound view of the subject, no claim Whatever to be consi dered as having a vested interest in the grant. It might be said, why sfrotild the Government embarrass themselves with a question of this nattire- - - - - -- why should they not pay the augmentation to the present schoolmalstets till they were worked out, and so save unpleasant disunion? Such a pro position was most tempting; but there were reasons why he could not recommend such a courses Suppose that they wefia to preserve the interest claimed by eitiatittg school ' masters. but not allow the same advantages to persons coming in after a certain day. Let them consider what in justice would be done by following that course. A master who had been in the service before the new regulation came into operation, being entitled to 420 a year, while a new teacher coming in would have no title to such bounty, would have the effect of shutting the profession against young men and sacrificing its hopes and prospects to the Interests of the present members. The claim of the schoolmasters was of a twofold character :—They claimed the payment of so much a year upon their certificates, and they claimed the condition annexed to the payment, namely, that the manager should allow them twice the amount of their claim. He had shown reasons why they should not re ceive the augmentation in specie, but he was willing to give them a lien upon the capitation grants, and to enforce the condition that they should receive from the manager twice the amount of the augmentation. It was said that the proposal of the Government was degrading education ; but the truth was that they fixed not a maximum of learn ing, but a minimum. What they said was, that no child should earn a grant unless able to read, write, and cypher, but they had no objection to any amount of learning be yond that being imparted, and he thought that, so far from degrading education, a system which required labotr and industry at an early period of life was calculated to elevate the character of the education of the country. The object of the Government was to afford such an education as might fit the pupil for the position in life to which he might be called, and he thought no system could be worse than that which would have the effect of making every man discontented with his situation. His idea was that the Government were bound to consider the requirements of the class they had to instruct and the education they were capable of receiving, and then to base the grant in aid upon the result of that examination. It was said that they were sacrificing the pupil teacher to the evening school, and no doubt they permitted the master to instruct the pupil teacher in the evening school with the other pupils, but was not the loss of the evening schools a heavy-price to pay for a little batter instruction to the pupil teacher ? The pupil teacher would have to pass an examination, and the master of the school, to satisfy his managers, must find the means of qualifying the pupil teacher for that examination, and there was no reason why he should not do so in the evening schools. The great difficulty under which the evening schools laboured was that of finding masters, and the want could only be supplied by taking them from the day schools, which was to be accom plished only by relieving them from the duty now forced upon them upon devoting their attention at certain times ex clusively to the pupil teachers. With regard to the group ing of ages, the outcry which hal been raised against the proposition of the Government was upon a misunderstand ing of what was meant by a classification or examination in class. The examination was intended to be an individual examination, but what was intended to be implied was that it should take place according to age. The instruction was not required to be according to age; but unless some such principle were adopted in the examinations, there would be the difficulty of finding an alternative which would not in volve a fatal interference in the management of the schools. He never prete. ded to lay a scheme before the house which was free from objection, but he maintained that although it might be open to some objection that was no reason why it should not be adopted. He would shortly point out the advantages of his scheme. In the first place, it dealt with individuals and not with classes, and it gave the managers almost entire freedom in regulating their schools as they pleased. It would also make the interest of the school identical with the interest of the public, and test the work done, and give all parties concerned the means of appreciat ing each other's merits. Above all, it would for the first time place this grant under the control of Parliament. Such was the case which he now laid before the house. He hoped he had shown there were circumstances in the exist ing system of education which unfitted it to be the perma nent system of this country, and that they were bound to adopt a test definite, clear, and precise, by which the public might know on what principles the education of the coun try was conducted. He had shown the impossibility of persons in the position of the Government remaining quiet. The difficulty had been forced upon the Government, and they had endeavoured to discharge their duty to the best of their ability, and he therefore now humbly submitted all these matters to the consideration of the house. (Cheers.) Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, after the ample exposition of the right hon. gentleman I wish to recall the house to the due and proper relation which it bears to this statement, and the course which ought to be taken in consequence of its being made. Sir, this statement is one which ought to have preceded the introduction of the revised code. If it had, what would have been the course for Parliament to have followed ? He apprehended it would have followed the course it always pursues when a Minister of the Crown makes an important statement in respect to his department, and does not feel it convenient on that occasion immedi ately to discuss its merits. It is obvious, under any circum stances, that a subject of this kind—involving principles so important and details so multifarious—requires a due and ample consideration. I am therefore somewhat surprised, considering the peculiar circumstances under which the re vised code was arrested in its progress, that the right honourable gentleman did not intimate to us when he in tends to call upon the house for an opinion on the project of the Government. But the right honourable gentleman says that the present case differs from the usual course of affairs, because the house and the country have been in possession for some considerable period of the scheme. Let us see if there is any justice in that observation. In the fi , st place the house has a right always to receive apersonal explanation from a Minister of any scheme before them. Although I think that a sufficient reason why an interval should elapse before the house gives an opinion on a scheme, and although I deprecate discussion at this moment—for I know that hasty conclusions often follow desultory discus sions which the house afterwards regrets—in the present case there is another consideration which we can not over lo.ac, because we have not only a revised code brought before us, but the revision of a revised code, (Laughter.) There fore I hope I am not misinterpreting the feelings of hon. gentlemen on both sides when I conclude there is a general wish there should be no formal discussion—no discussion— to-night upon the masterly exposition of the right hon. gen tleman, but that the right hon. gentleman, or some other member of the Government, would inform the house on what night the opinion of the house on the whole schemo will be taken. (Hear, hear.) I hope due time will be given for its consideration. Ido not agree with the right bon. gentleman that this is a subject of little magnitude, and I do not think that such an observation coming from a per son in authority, ought to pass unnoticed. It appears to me that this is not a petty subject, but a very oreat subject, and if I wanted any evidence to prove that, it won; ld be afforded by the speech of the right hon, gentleman because hi 0,;. f he coMmeneed a series of arguments the whole en;, : t of . i.} .~. 1 which was to abrogate the present system of education. 1 That is a great question and one of the utmost importance. The right hon. gentleman had become acquainted only with the question so far as the name of Commons was concerned, tinting the palmy days of national education and the powers and achievetnents of the:Privy Council-office, but there were many hon. gentlemen who remembered when the question was in a very different state—l being one of them. I cannot but remember the great results the labour* of the Privy Council have obtained, tentatively, as the right hon. gentle man, chooses to consider it, and I cannot look at those labours t without feeling that in the future history of this country the establishment of our present system of education will be a great result, which will redound much to the honour of England. The right hon. gentleman seems to wish that _ _ . Parliament had more control over the Committee of Privy Council ; but the right hon. gentleman forgets that some years ago an office of great honour and authority was esta blished thE3 object of which was that there should be a clear and constitutional connexion between the doings of the Committee of Privy Council and this house, and that that office is new occupied by the right hon. gentleman himself. Though no one vrould say that the right bon. gentleman had done anything which he was not entitled to do, yet everybody felt that the Vice-President of the Committee of Council for Education would certainly take no extreme step with ut consulting the House of Commons. Hence the sur prise at the manner in which the revised code was introduced It was a measure which justified some explanations on the part of the right hon. gentleman. The moment that Parlia ment was prorogued the revised code was published. I will give rto opinion at present on the revised code, but all seemed to be agreed that it would create a great revolution. The right hon. gentleman proposes to sweep away the old sys • tern and to substitute a new system of his own. That being so, the house had a right to expect that it would have been introduced to the house before the prorogation. As I believe it was laid on the table when the prorogation was announced it is quite clear that the revised code must have been for some time in one of the despatch boxes of the right hon. gentle man. (Hear.) Is that a constitutional course on the part of the right hon. gentleman, who regrets the house has not sufficient control over the conduct of the Privy C,uncil ? But I will ask this further question. Had the house the slightest reason to expect that the Government were medi tating this change? I remember, in July, when the report of the Commissioners was presented to the house, the right hon. gentleman felt it his duty to make eeme observations on the subject. He described the character of the report of the total commissioners, and he gave his own opinion. The right hon. gentleman said that the commissioners approved of the existing system of education, and he added that the Government themselves—l am speaking from memory— felt this was a question on which they ought to speak man fully and boldly, and they had no hesitation in saying they adhered to that system. 'Hear.) I ask hon. members on both sides of the house whether that was not the impres sion of Parliament. (Hear.) I say nothing in vindication of the existing system, or of the revised code. Then there were the poor laws, and a great opposition was raised against them. That opposition was from a political feeling against having a powerful central authority. There was also great opposition to the reform of the tariff, and that also arose from a political feling that it might interfere with our Industries. Now, when the question of education was discussed in this country, and the present national system was brought forward, we had to encounter both political and religious jealousy ; yet the great enthusiasm of the people in its favour overcame this double feeling against it. In 1860 a complete code was laid upon the table of the house, I will not pretend to maintain that there was no necessity for a change in it, and I Will not enter upon the discussion of the proposed change to-night, but what I wish to impress upon the house is, that this system of popular education, which, in the course of many years, was with so much moderation, and with so much firmness, supported by the administration of the country and the great enthusiasm of feeling of a large body of the people was established ; it was established under greater difficulties than the recon struction of our representative system, the reform of the pauper code, or the commercial tariff, had to encounter, and it produced a not less powerful effect upon the public mind. Now, what should we have thought if the state of the law in this country was such that on a day after the proroga tion of Parliament a minister of the Crown, not liking the Reform Act of 1832, had abrogated it, and introduced a new Reform Act—(hear) —or if the Chief Commissioner of the Poor Laws had erased the whole body of minutes which former commissioners had framed, and had introduced a new code; or what should we have thought of the President of the Board of Trade rescinding the model tariff, and substituting a new commercial system founded upon the principle of reciprocity ? (Hear.) The house could not reconcile such a system to their minds. Indeed, it wan beyond the dream of possibility, and yet we have found that such a course can be pursued in this country in the matter of popular education by the Committee of the Privy Council. (Hear, hear.) Ido not mean to say that the right hon. gentleman's principal—the President of the Committee—has taken any step which was not perfectly legal on his part; yet it is to be regretted that a minister placed in so high a position as the right hon. gentleman should have felt it his duty to take it. (Hear, hear.) 1 think no one will doubt that, whatever may be the opinion formed upon the revised code and the existing system of education, some means should be taken to ensure to Par liament a complete control over the doings of the Commit tee of Privy Council for Education. (Hear, hear.) Though the act of the Government may have been justifiable, yet I cannot conceive an act which essentially could have been more violent or more unwise than that the moment Par liament was prorogued a minister should take the course which the right hon. gentleman did, and abrogate and an nul all the existing minutes which have been in operation for more than a quarter of a century, and give in its place a new minute which, so far as I can collect, was to come into operation without the House of Commons having any control over it. (Hear, hear.) That is a monstrous state of affairs, and one which, if it had been suggested last year, hon. members would have agreed was utterly incre dible. (Hear, hear.) 'Whether the complaints against the original and the revised code be right or wrong, the school masters have a right to receive the expressions of public gratitude for having resisted this course of violent pro ceeding, and for having taught us our position as regards our control over one of the most important de partments of the State. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, far from regretting what has taken place, it is with the warmest admiration we should feel that the House of Com mons has found its true position in this respect. I hope the house will not discuss the subject to- night, but will on a future occasion consider it in a spirit as solemn as it deserves ; and I hope the Government will find it conve nient to give the house some time to consider• the subject before they ask for its opinion upon it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. NEWDEGA'IE said the right hon. gentleman op posite had stated that the children in schools of Protestant denominations would not be examined in religion, and that the children in Church of England schools would be exa mined on religious matters under the supervision of the two archbishops of - the Church. The question he wished to ask was whether, in the event of any failure on the part of any school of either Protestant denomination or of the Church of England, the penalties under the new code would attach to that failure, and be the same as if there were a failure on the part of those schools which only taught reading, writing, and arithmetic? Mr. KINNAIRD said he merely wished to exprEss hie concurrence with what had fallen from the right hon. gen tleman the member or Bucks (Mr. Disraeli), and to say that this was a matter which required the gravest consi deration of Parliament. Mr. CAIRD wished to know whether the new code would apply to the schools in Scotland. Lord R. CECIL understood the right hon. gentleman to say that he expected the estimate for these schools would be abut £500,000. Did it not amount to more than that sum at present ? Mr. LOWE, in reply, said the whole estimate for the department was no doubt considerably more, but £5,0,000 would be the sum required for these schools, and that it was not intended to apply the minute to the schools in Scotland. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) had asked what he thought of a minister rescinding the Reform Act and promulgating a new one, and his answer was that he should think he was mad. (Hear.) The right hon. gen leman then complained that the minute was net laid upon the table' ntil the day before the separation of Parliament, and that it would come into operation immediately. But it should be remembered that the first examination under it would not take place before the 25th July, 1862, and there fore not until after Parliament had properly dealt with the whole subject matter. The right. hon. gentleman (Mr. Lowe) then referred to his speech delivered in the house on the 12th July last, showing that the new minute was ex plained to the house at that time. H e was in hopes of lawas y ing it earlier on the table than the 27th July, but that found to be impossible. If it had been intended to with draw this minute from the consideration of Parliament, it would not have been laid on the table at the end of a session. The object of the Government i n acting as they had done was, that the minute should be thoroughly examined by those who took an interest in the subject, and it had under.- gone a full discussion. If he had wanted to play fast and loose with the house he should have ?ursued a contrary course, and would have hoped that other business would have caused less consideration to be given to this matter. The question was now in the hands of the house,and it would be for the house to fix a day for its further discussion. Mr. NE WDEGATE repeated the question which he had asked. Mr. LO WE said if an inspector reported that the religious teaching iu a school was nut satisfactory, the grant would be withheld altogether, but in regard to other matters it would be in the power of the committee to withhold not less than one-tenth or more than one-half of the grant. This wa s a minor penalty introduce 1 for the first time. Sir J. PAKINGTON said he had heard with great satis faction the reason why the revised code was not introduced at an earlier period of the last session. The house ought not to be taken by surprise, or deprived of that security which it had so long possessed in this matter. He would refer the house to the proceedings under Lord Derby's Go vernment of 1852, when soma changes were introduced of minor importance in reference to the education grant, and all parties agreed that the house ought to have some con trol over the Committee of the Privy Council. He had listened to the speech of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Lowe), but he thought it would be uudeeirable on this oo• casion to discuss the points raised upon the new code. He must say that he was surprised at the apparent inconsis tency between the language whtch the right hon. gentle man (Mr. Lowe) had used to-night and that which had used last session, when he had said that in the revised code the whole system of the Privy Council would be left intact and it was owing to that assertion that public indignation had been so much aroused when a code was laid on the table at the extreme end of the session, which appeared to, upset the whole principle of the Privy Council. The right hon. gentleman had stated to-night that "the whole plan. was to sweep away the existing principle." It might be possible that the right hon. gentleman had used the words in a more limited sense than he was giving them, but almost his last words applying to the Privy Council were " un worthy of a permanent and definite system," He thought that the house and the country had a right to complain of the course which the Government had pursued. The right hon. gentleman had alluded to those who had spoken on this matter during the recess. He (Sir J. Pakington) was one of these, but he could assure the right hon. gentleman that, though he had condemned the existing system, he had care fully guarded himself against the expression of an opinion which would fetter his action in that house, and he was pre pared to come to the consideration of the que-tion in the most impartial and dispassionate spirit. He had always maintained the opinion that if it were attempted to educate all England under the present system it would be found too costly and too highly centralised, and in that opinion he was now fortified by the report of an impartial commission and the able speech of the right hon. gentleman to-night, which was less a vindication of the revised c ode than a. powerfull attack on the existing system. Mr. WALPOLE hoped that the Government would give a specific answer both as to the time and the mode in which this question was to be discussed, and suggested that the Government should, for the convenience of discussion, lay before the house in parallel columns the system as it existed and as it was proposed to be altered, so that the house could modify portions, or adopt or reject the whole. Sir G. GREY said that Government were anxious that the minute should be discussed in the form most acceptable to the house. When alterations were made from time to time in any minute of the Privy Council, it was laid on the table, and it was quite competent to any member to make a motion on the subject, and of course it would be equally competent to any hon. gentleman to do the same on this oc casion. If that course should not be taken, the Government would be bound before they could carry out the system to ask the house for a vote of money, and on taking that vote it would be open to any member to object to the minute; but if no motion were made by any hon. gentleman who objected to it, then the Government did not intend to do so. Mr. LOWE, in explanation of what had fallen from the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) said that his remarks lest year were to the effect that the Government did not in tend to make any change in the fundamental system of the council, and that what he had said to-night alluded to the annual granting of money. The motion was then agreed to. SEWAGE OF CITIES AND TOWNS. Dr. BRADY gave notice of the following motion : " To move for a committee to inquire into the best means of utilising the sewage of the cities and towns of England, with a view to the reduction of local taxation and the bene fit of agriculture." The house adjourned at 20 minutes past 9 o'clock. COUNTRY MARELAS. ►, MANCHESTER—FEB. 13. At our market to-day there was a fair attendance, but business in both wheat and flour was dull. The former was at a decline of 10 and the latter at 6d per sack and brl. American wheat in limited request at ld to 2d per 1001 b cheaper. Oats neglected, and oatmeal 6d per load below last week's prices. Beans and Indian corn a quiet sale. SLEAFORD—FEB. 12. We had a good attendance of merchants and farmers at our Exchange to-day, and wheat experienced a dull trade, with little or no variation from late quotations. Wheat, 68s to 695, barley, 33s to 38s; oats, 21s to 255; beans, 415 to 45s per quarter. LYNN—FEB, 12. Old white 63s to 65s j Barley. 11, , d . 6ls to 63.1 I Oats .24s to 26s Beans .42s to 46s j Peas 46s to 51s MELTON MOWBRAY—FEB. 12. There was a tolerable show of wheat to-day, and, with an inactive trade, prices very little changed. Barley was still a steady sale, at downward prices. White wheat, 59a Od to 66s Od ; red, 55s Od to 62s per 36 stone ; beans slow, at 44s to 50s for old ; new sorts, —s per 38 st. ; barley, 34s to 39s for malting, and 29s to 31s per qr. Or grinding; oats, 22s to 32s Od per 24 stone. EDINBURGH GRAIN—FEL 12. Wheat on the top 4s Od down average Os 2d up. Barley on the top is 6d up average Os 3d up. Oats on the top Os 9d up average Os 2d Ip. Beans on the top Os 6d down. average Os 10d up. Total Supply and Sales. Wheat ..1461 qrs Sold 969 qrs 8ar1ey........1 2 6 2 qrs Sold 1045 qrs Oats 1949 qrs Sold 1332 qrs Beans 268 qrs Sold 262 qrs Averages per Imperial quarter. Wheat.... . £2 15 7 3-12ths New wheat .... Barley 1 10 10 10-12ths Oats -12ths Beans CORK—FEB. 12. The following were the quotations this morning :—REd wheat, 20s Od to 28s 6‘l; white, 24s Od to 29s Od; barley 110 6d to 15s Od ; oats, 7s Od to 14s 9d. DERBY SMITHFIELD—Fxs. 12. There was a fair supply of fat beasts to-day, and the attendance was large. Beef in good demand. The supply of sheep was short, and prices unaltered. Fat calves were scarce, and sold well. The show of fat pigs was an average one, maintaining late rates. Beet 6d to 62d Veal Mutton ... 7id to Sid Pork .. 6d to 61d Lamb Od to Od Rough fat, 4s S 4 per stone. Hides, 3d to 41c1 ; calf skins, 5d to 6d. FOREIGN MAIL PACKET LIST. MAILS DUE. Australia and Mauritius, via Southampton. Feb 18. via Marseilles Feb 13. Brazil and Cape Verds, by British packet. March 0. Cape of Good Hope, Ascension, and Sr. Helena. March 3. China, Penang, and Singapore, via Southampton. Feb. 18. via Marseilles Feb. 13. Falkland Islands Gibraltar, via Southampton .... Feb --• India (Calcutta), and Ceylon, via Southampton Feb. 18. via Marseilles. . . Feb, 13. India (Bombay), via Southampton Feb. --- via Marseilles Feb. 20. Lisbon Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via Southampton Feb. --- - via Marseilles Feb. 13. Newfoundland .. Feb. 19 Oporto and Vigo .. . Feb. 11. U. S. and British N. America, by Brit. packet.... Feb, 13, by U.S. packet.... by Canadian packet. Feb, 12. W.C. of Africa, Madeira, and Teneriffe Mar. 10. Bahamas, via New York Feb. 13. Mexico ....Feb. 28. All parts of West Indies, including Chili, Peru, j F e b . 13. California, and British Columbia. BENSON'S WATCHES AND CLOCKS..—" Perfection of mechanism."—Morning Post. Gold watches, 6to ICO guineas; silver watches, 2 to 50 guineas. Benson's new Illustrated Pamphlet, free for two stamps, descriptive of every construc tion of watch, enables persons in any part of the world t 0 select with the greatest certainty the watch best adapted to their use. Watches sent free and safe by post on receipt of a remittance. —J. W. Benson, 33 and 34, Ludgate-hill, Id and 47, Cornhill, London, E.C.—Established 1743. LADVERTISEMENT.I—HoIIoway's Ointment and Pills.- - Universal Patronage.—Let all sufferers from general or local disease take heart, and follow in the wake of thou sands who ascribe their restoration of health to the use of these noble remedies. Rheumatism in the muscles or joints, gouty pains, neuralgic tortures, cramps and sp modic twitches depart under the ap; ropriate employment of Holloway's Ointment and Pills. Bad legs, all kinds a ulcers, sore s , burns, wounds, pimples, cutaneous inflara mations, and dropsical swellings are best met and quickest conquered by this Ointment, which happily combines harmlessness with efficiency. The reputation Holloway's Ointment and Pills have acquired throughout the habitable globe should induce every afflicted person to give them trial before despairing of relief or abandoning hope. BIRTHS. the 12th inst., at 2, Sheffield-gardens, the wife of E. J. Morant Gale, Esq., of a son. GAYTON.--On the 9th inst., at Peckham, the wife of Capt. Chas. Gayton, R.N., of a son. Gowan.—On the 10th inst., at 22, Hill-street, the lion' Mrs. Leveson Gower, of a daughter. REMNANT.—On the 13th inst., at 17, Kensington-park gardens, the wife of Frederick William Remnant, Esq• , • of a son. MARRIAGES. HOWARD—CHESTER.—On the 12th inst., at St. George's? Hanover-square, the Hon. and Rev. William Howard , of Whiston Rectory, Yorkshire, youngest son of the late Earl of Effingham, to Barbara Frances Wilhelmina, the youngest daughter of the late Lieut.• General Chester, R A., of Ashtead, Surrey. WEALE—BULL.—On the 11th inst., at elitist Church , Turnham-green, G. H. Harding, youngest son of Robt. Weale, Esq., of the Elms, Biggleswade, to Helen, secon d daughter of J. P. Bull, Esq., of Arlington House, an d Hyde.park-street. DEATHS. FARQUIIARSON.-011 the 10th inst., at 26, St. George's' road, Captain Charl. s Farquharson, R.N., Elder Brother of the Trinity House, aged 67. OLADSTONE.—On the 12th inst., at 42, Upper Brook'' street, Elizabeth Honoria, wife of Captain Gladstone, R.N., M.P. HOOPER.—On the 11th inst., at Peckham, Henry Hooper, Esq., of 40, Old Broad-street, and of Lloyd's, aged 43• BUTTON. — On the 11th inst., at Leckford Vicarage, th e Rev. F. H. Hutton, M.A., aged 67. APRORIE.—On the 7th inst., at South Lambeth, Mr. g' M'Rorie, aged 90. PERRIN.—On the 4th inst, at Morden College, Blackheath, John Perrin, Esq., aged 95. LONDON : Printed and Published by KURD° YOUN6 Of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at TnE SuN Oftce, No. 112,st ravc in the Precinct of the Savoy in the County of lefid dieeeSl Friday, February U, 1862.