The Sun. — London, England, 1862-02-25 00:00:00

(Hear.) Now, as regards the education of our seamen. (Hear.) Ought not our men to be educated as well as any men of a similar class in this country? (Hear, hear.) I the full number is enrolled the coat willnot quite reach that I amount. That £l3, however, does not include any provi sion for pensions, The Royal Commission recommended that a sum of money should be taken every year to be ap plied to the formation of a pension fund. The Government considered that scheme, but its advantages were not found to be such as to warrant its adoption. If we assume that the proportion of men obtaining pensions will be the same on the reserve as among the seamen of the navy, the cost of pensions will average about £2 per man per annum. That, of course, is merely speculation, because as yet none of the men in the reserve have arrived at the age at which they become entitled to pensions. I cannot pass from this sub ject without alluding to that vast scheme for officering the reserve which the house approved last year. lam glad to be able to inform the committee that the finest and best officers of the merchant service are flocking into our rants. They are ambitious of serving their country, and I oielieve that we shall shortly have as many officers as we are authorised by Parliament to engage. It, therefore, becomes a most important question as to what is to be the future of these reserves, especially as concerns their officers. Government have done everything that could be done in the way of giving full opportunities for drill—that is to say, by establishing at the principal ports drill ships, superintendents of drill, and all that is requisite for that purpose, But what we can do in that respect must ever be limited to manuaLexercise at the gun. That which is essen tial to make a real gunner is target practice, and for that it is impossible that the Government can provide. I think it would be worthy of consideration in the future whether, when one of these officers has studied the higher branches of gunnery, has proved himself competent to manage a gun, and has got a crew of naval reserve men, we might not sup ply a gun to his ship, exactly as they are supplied to the Volunteer Artillery upon the coast. (Hear.) I throw that out for future consideration, because it is of immense importance that yon should teach your gunners. If they are to be useful in action they must have been taught to fire at a target ; manual exercise can only be a very incom plete instruction for a gunner. I have stated that we have to-day more than 10,000 Naval Volunteers, we have like wise of Coast Volunteers 8,000. Taking the total reserve force available for the defence of the country, irrespective of the fleet which is afloat, we have 40,800 men ready to go on board our ships if any emergency required their pre sence. And in making that statement I have made the proper deductions for the men belonging to the naval re serve who are on distant stations, and therefore could not be counted upon within, say, six mouths. Adding to this number our force in commission, we have a total force of in round numbers 95,000 men. I believe that we are at last approaching a satisfactory state as regards our force afloat and our reserve. (Hear, hear.) I now turn to another matter which is of vital and growing interest—the force of boys which is maintained as a nursery for the navy. We maintain, at the present ti me , 9,500, of w hom 6,500 are in the fleet, 500 are in the Coast-guard ships, and 2,500 are in the training ships. We have at the pri cilial ports five training ships, on board of which are 2,500 boys, and attached to these ships are four brigs, on board of which the lads are taken to practise them in seamanship. Sir I. PA h INGTON.—Are the five training ships of the class recommended by the Commission ? Lord C. PAGET.—Yes, certainly, they are line-of-battle ships ; the Caledonia is one. These boys will, I believe, become a most superior class of sailors. They are well educated, and will turn out.some of the most valuable men in the fleet, but they are very costly. I desire to impress this cost upon the committee, because we are daily recei ving requisitions from the great merchant ports, asking the Government to undertake the education of their boys. (Hear.) The Admiralty are fully sensible of the importance which is to be attached to the education of boys in the mer chant navy, but. seeing how heavy our Naval Estimates are, I think that we are perfectly right in deferring sthat is called the second boy scheme of the Royal Commission un til we can show some greater reduction in our normal ex penses. These boys—and again if any hon. member chooses to move for the detailed return, which will be found very interesting, I shall be glad to lay it upon the table—cost us nearly £45 per head per annum. The annual cost of each boy is within £5 of that of a marine, and within £l5 of that of a seaman in the fleet. It is interesting to inquire how many seamen these boys supply per annum. We calculate that the waste of boys from discharge, death, desertion, and other causes, amounts to about 7 per cent. per annum ; and taking the average period of training at three years and a half—they enter from 14 to 18—it gives us in round num hers 2,500 boys per annum becoming seamen for the sup ply of the Royal Navy. (Hear, hear.) It is very remark able what a small proportion of the whole number borne, on the books is formed by the petty officers andlisamen. Out of a total force of 76,000, including the Coastguard, we have only 40,000 petty officers and seamen. Million. friend the member for Lambeth, who takes an interest in the subject of corporal punishments, will be glad to hear that there has been a reduction in the number of deser tions in the navy ; so that, instead of taking 12 per cent. for waste, as I did when I brought this subject before the committee last year, I need only take 11 per cent. this year. (Hear.) On the force of 40,000 the percentage would there fore be about 4,400. Of these vacancies 2,500 are supplied by boys, leaving 1,900 seamen to be obtained from other sources. These details are important when considering hove far we _ ought to carry the boy system—a subject which has much engaged the attention of the Admiralty. Snowing the fine class of boys we can turn out, this deficiency is very tempt ing; but the question is, ought we not to keep up a steady flow of seamen from the merchant service, in order that the distance and difference between us may vanish and be over come ? (Hear, hear.) The Admiralty therefore consider the number of boys to be very much st hat is required for feed ing the navy. As we are now happily at peace, and as I trust things on all sides look as if we need no longer enter tain apprehensions of war, I think this may be a moment when the house will permit me to make some few remarks with regard to the condition of the seamen. My lamented friend Lord Herbert, when he brought forward his Esti mates, used yearly to devote a considerable time to inform ing the committee how the soldiers fared in health, in posi tion, and in prospects. A most important indication of the state of the navy lies in the health of the seamen. We have returns of the mortality of the fleet. The death-rate per thousand is in some respects satisfactory, but in others, I am sorry to say, such is not the case. As regards the home station, the average is not above that of other public ser vices—the police, soldiers, and so on ; it is about 10 per cent. annually. But I regret to say that at some of the stations the death-rate has been very high—as high as 60 per cent. (Sensation.) These, lam bound to say, were exceptional c ases, such as in the Chinese war, where the men were sub ject to great exposure. But the average on the whole of the navy is about 16 yer cent. per annum. The Admiralty have been led seriously to consider whether some improvement might not be made—in regard, first of all, to the food of the seaman, and likewise with respect to the ventilation of their sleeping places. (Hear, hear.) We have had a committee sitting some time, and the result has been that the Admi ralty have decided to adopt every possible means of improv ing the ventilation of the ships. Hon. gentlemen who have been on the lower deck of a frigate or line-of-battle ship when the men are asleep will admit that the atmo sphere there is enough to pi evoke any kind of disease. (Hear, hear.) We have received reports from some of the large ships in the Mediterranean, showing that fatal dis eases, phthisis, and fevers, are but too prevalent; and a principal cause of these is the crowded state of the decks. This leads me to advert to what several gentlemen—my gallant friend the member for Devonport among others — alluded to as taking place, the reduction of the complement of men in her Majesty's ships. We propose as a tentative measure that on board of certain large ships in the fleet the complement should be reduced in the following propor tions :—ln line of battle ships from 880 to 800 men; in some of the frigates from 570 to 510 ; in the smaller fri gates from 350 to 310. The House last year, at the sugges tion of the Admiralty, allowed an establishment to be formed at Deptford where beef could be both killed and cured in our victualling yard. The operations there car ied on have been productive of the greatest comfort to the seamen, but it is right to tell the House that its generosity to the navy has not been unattended with expense. The - additional cost of providing first-rate beef is itself consider able. The meat now purchased would be fit for any gen tleman's table, and contrasts forcibly with the old " maho ell" we were used to in our young days. (A laugh.) Both officers and men will now have very good corned "'et There are other measures which the Admiralty are desir e i t'' to be of carrying out, but these are matters requiring and h andled with the utmost consideration, delicacy, c ats, because we know that se amen are always somewhat en„..i do bee tui nth of e the Admiralty. Ever since last century it practice in th e navy for seamen to receive allowances for savings of provisions. But this Starvation. ( Hear .) Instead of being well fed, as we u e n s sire them to be, and as growing boys especially require to lese latter, who are obliged to su bmit to the rules theirof ysess, together with the men, ac t ua lly save so much out of their food in order that they ma y spend the amount oa sho r e, The Medical Director- General of the Nav y has reported men it would be greatly conducive to the health of tb s , system, which is connected with C a lf by any means that therefore surrounded with great diffie T ti of the navy, and pa y pay of theof allowances ready i s away with. I have often stated that the es, could be done above £3 a-month, taking into account all they receive, and therefore higher than the chant service, though sailors in the latter will not believe it, O n e ca n easily understand how this old .fathiotted s ystem gre w out of the wants of the da y . The p a yments to men for their savings of provisions were very n atural w h en the resourc es of the country were limited, and it wee diffi cu l t to rov i s ioes ; but there is no similar object to b e purchase P gained in the present day. I do trust, therefore, that whether by the present Government or by that of my hen * friend opposite som e new schema may be devised by which the men may be paid on a more simple plan, so that they will really know what they aro .receiving. Another in stance of the improving condition of our sailo s is that h r tey have baked bread at sea, just as good as any gentleman can have in London or Paris. (Hear.) It is very desirable to afford the seamen soft bread instead of keeping them always on biscuit. I speak in this way to show the committee that we aro alive to the deficiencies, and that things aro gradu ally im proving. We have received reports stating that the greatest benefits had resulted fi om the distilling apparatus, which enables the men in the fleet to have pure water can assure the committee that that desire of the governing body in the navy is that they shoul i be. It is quite true that education has hitherto been given, but we called for returns on the subject and could get none. We have had schoolmasters for a great number of years, but in most cases they were men of an inferior class, and the scholars could not have been expected to make much progress. How ever, we have applied to the Treasury lately for the means of appointing schoolmasters of a superior class, and we trust that education in the navy will be greatly improved. (Hear, hear.) The Second Lord of the Admiralty has undertaken to gather in all the statistics on this subject, in order that we may be in a position to judge of the results of the improved system. (Hear, hear.) I cannot pass over another subject —namely, desertion. (Hear.) I hold in my hand a very interesting return, to which I beg to call the attention of b the committee. It shows that a gradual impro vement has been taking place, aad that that improvement has not been checked since 1857, except in the year following that in which the large bounty was given. In 1857 the desertions amounted to 5 per cent. ; in 1858 they fell to 41 ; in 1859 to 4 ; in 1860 they jumped up to 51, but in 1861 they hadfallen to 31. (Hear, hear.) From this return the committee will perceive that the desertions had fallen one-half per cent. each year with the exception of the year 1860. The high bounty was given in 1859, and in that year many fellows joined who ran away in the winter and spring following. One more return and I will relieve the committee of this branch of the subject. Corporal punishment in the navy has also been on the decrease. (Hear, hear.) In 1857 it was administered to 3 per cent. of the numbers in the fleet ; in 1858 to 2i ; in 1859 to 2 ; in 1860, the date of the last return, to only 1 1-3 d. (Hear.) I think that is satisfactory; but hon. members may wish to know the cause of the de crease in corporal punishments. (Hear, hear.) I may say it is to be found partly in the fact that superior men are coming in, but it may also be traced to the disinclination of officers to inflict corporal punishment. (Hear, hear.) We are to some extent substituting imprisonment for corporal punishment, butunderexisting arrangements imprisonment has its disadvantages, for by imprisonment in the ordinary gaols many a fine seaman is thrown into contact with immoral characters, who send him back contaminated. (Hear.) What the Admiralty wish for is a naval prison, governed by naval officers, and entirely under our own eye. (Hear.) We expect that out of such a prison men will come back to us improved instead of demoralised. I can assure the house that the subject of naval barracks has not been lost sight of. My hon. friend the member for Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphinstone) has come down primed to attack the Secretary to the Admiralty on this point— (laughter)—but Ido not think that my hon. friend can have looked into the estimates. We admit the utility of such establishments ; but with respect to this subject also we bear in mind the Italian proverb—Chi va piano va sane. (Hear.) We propose to commence with the construction of a barracks at Devonport. No doubt my hon. friend would rather we began at Portsmouth. (A laugh.) This question of barracks is one of immense interest. My late gallant friend Sir C. Napier asked for barracks in order that our seamen might not be kept for four or five months aboard hulks while waiting to be put aboard their ships, but I must remind the committee that we fit out our ships in a week now. Therefore, on that ground we have no need for bar racks, but we want them in order that our men may have a tour on shore. (Hear.) It would be very desirable to put them in barracks to go through a tour of duty, instead of having them drunk about the streets of a town. (Hear.) They would become more civilised, and we could accustom 1 them to duty. When we accomplish that, what will fol low? The organisation of the navy. (Hear.) What the navy wants is organisation. Hon. gentlemen may have read Sir F. Grey's pamphlet on the subject. I am not bound to kis or to any other particular scheme, but I do say that the navy wants to be organised. When our frigates went out men were put aboard of them; but, to use the expres sion of an hon. member, they were " chucked " aboard. Now, what we want is that they should know their ships, and that is what the hon. baronet (Sir J, Elphinstone) wants. I now turn to the question of ships. I laid on the table of the house some few days ago a return showing all the ships now afloat and building. Hon. members may have read that return ; but it will be interesting to the public to know that on the Ist instant the number of screw ships of the line afloat was 57, and the number on the stocks 4, giving a total of 61. The number of frigates was—screw, 37 afloat and 7 on the stocks ; paddle 9, making a total of 44 screws and 9 paddles. I will not detain the committee by enumerating all the smaller vessels ; but the grand total of our steam fleet was 580, composed of 525 afloat and 55 build ing or on the stocks. I think that my hon. friend the mem ber for Lambeth (Mr. Williams) will admit that that is value for our money. (A laugh, and hear, hear.) We now come to the question of the reduction of the armament of the ships, and I entreat the attention of hon. gentlemen to this subject. The Admiralty receive from various officers reports that those very long steamships, with engines in the centre, are liable to straining, and that in a great degree. Now I know that some gentlemen, and among them naval officers, are of opinion that this straining is attributable to the ships being overmasted. I am not prepared to say that this is not the case in some instances ; but what is manifest is this—that they are over-weighted. Another thing which the Admiralty have to consider is that we have introduced Armstrong guns. Now, that means this—that you will mount a few guns carrying heavy shot. It is found that a 100-pounder striking a vessel does more damage than two 50-pounders. That is the principle. Our ships, to make any impression against iron-plated vessels, require very heavy guns—in fact, you might as well throw marbles against their iron sides as shots of any smaller calibre. It was therefore necessary for the Admiralty to reconsider the armament of ships. But again our presentclassof ships carry nominally a great number of guns, but a great many of these guns are utterly useless. You dare not fire them except right abeam, for fear of doing damage to the rigging. They will not trail in the least, and it is absolutely necessary on that account that we should get rid of some of these guns. Consider what an immense advantage it is to your ship if you can lighten your weight of guns and gun car riages, and if you can keep up something like the weight of shot thrown from your broadside. The result is, and I repeat it is a tentative measure, that the Admiralty have determined to try the experiment of reducing the armament of some ships of each class. My right hon. friend (Mr. Corry) has moved for a return which will show in detail the reduction of the armament in every ship, but it may be interesting that I should inform the house of some of the changes made. The Revenge class of 91-gun ship is the last I ype of the line-of-battle ships of our navy. The original armament before the introduction of the Arm -1 strong gun was 34 8-inch guns of 65 cwt., 36 32-pounders of 56 cwt., 20 32 •pounders of 45 cwt., and one 68-pounder, making a total of 91 guns. The weight of these guns was 533 tons. (Mr. Corry—lncluding the gunners' stores ?) Yes. The weight of the guns of the Revenge class of ships —guns and gear —was 533 tons, carrying a broadside of 1,7801 b. weight. The present scheme gives no 8-inch guns of 65 cwt., 32 32-pounders of 56 cwt., two 33 -pounders of 45 cwt., six 40-pounder Armstrong guns, and a 100- pounder pivot Armstrong gun. So that the weight, instead of being 533 tons, will only be 438 tons, being a saving of 100 tons in weight. Consider what a relief it is fora ship to have 100 tons taken off her decks. (Hear, hear.) It is true we sacrifice the weight of the shot of the broadside. (Sir J. Pakington—Hove many guns on the old and new principle P) Seventy-one guns against 91, being a reduc tion of 20 in the complement of guns. We lose, I admit, the difference in the weight of the broadside between 1,7801 b. as against I,4Bolb.—that is to say, we lose 3001 b. in the broadside. (Hear, hear.) But that is made up by the advantage of having a few very heavy shot. I will not trouble the house any further on this head, as a full return on the subject has been moved for by my right hon. friend. I ought here to allude to what has been said by my hon. friend the member for Portsmouth (Sir J. Elphinstone), who complained that if you reduce the masts and yards, you will prevent the proper working of the ships. Here is a proof that there need be no alarm on this subject. The Ariadne has a larger area of sails, masts, and yards than the Shannon, which is about to be reduced, yet the Ariadne has 100 men less. But there has been no complaint that the Ariadne cannot man the'spars and sails—at least, no reason why there should be complaint. Complaints there always are. Every naval officer wishes to obtain as many men as possible for his ship. I always made a point of ap plying for more men; but it is for the Admiralty to judge in such cases. I now turn to our iron-cased ships, and it will be interesting that I should give the house some infor mation as to their progress. [Sir J. Pakington—" What was the cost of the Warrior ?"] The cost of the Warrior, including all except her armament, was £354,885. Her armament besides is about £13,000. We have now in the course of construction 15 iron-cased ships built and build ing, of which there will be, we hope, 11 afloat in the course of the present year. (Hear, hear.) In the course of 1863 there will be 12 afloat—that is, one more—and in 1864 there will be 1.5, and in addition there will be a new ship, provided the Committee agree to the construction of this novel ship, to which I will presently allude. If tho Com mittee desire it, I can give the tonnage and horse-power connected with these vessels. The first class of ships, in cluding the Agincourt, the Minotaur, and the Northum berland, were agreed to last summer; they are in process of building, and they will be ready in 1864. They are 400 ft. long, and it is expected they will attain a speed of 14 knots an hour. They will be of 6,621 tons. These ships are of a peculiar build, as they carry their plating right round. The Warrior and other ships are only partially plated up to a certain distance from and s e . b l a o :I s t ; 11,5 bow and stern, but these vessels of the I Zrt class are to be plated right round. The The next class e , the Black 1,,i plated, ar e of 6,100 each of comprises the Warrior (which has been at sea, which I shall have a few words to say presently), next class includes % e l l are of 3,668 tons, and next class is that of the Caledonia, the Royal floo and the Achilles. They are partially tons, and have a speed of 14 knets. 4,o tp o ic comprises the Hector and the Va liant,with a speed of 12 knots. The have and the Defence, which ;B ri a n, speed of 11•45 knots. The Alfred, a e nd eonsort, the Ocean, the Royal i Oak, which were begun as line-of-battle ships th w e h . converted to iron-plated frigates, a n d Which are to no bo w being platedwooden right round. Their tonnage is 4 , 015 , They are rim SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 25, 1862. line-of-battle ships, and they are to be lengthened 12 or 15 feet. The Prince Consort and the Caledonia will have en- 1 gines of 1,000 Noise-power, and an estimated speedof 12.41, The Royal Alfred and the Royal Oak are of the same ton nage, with 800 horse-power and a speed of 11'52. I am now obliged to ask the attention of the committee to a totally novel class of vessel which we ask the committee to consent to construct during this year. Every one will re member the controversy with regard to the construction of Capt. Coles's cupolas. Last year we carried on a series of extensive experiments with one of these cupolas. We put it on an old floating battery ; we tried thing from it, and then we tried firing at it—and the result was that it s ood the most complete hammering without showing any considerable signs of weakness. The Admiralty were so impressed with this that they have since gone carefully into the matter, and wo are now preparing an improved cupola —a double cupola—to carry two guns, And we are now pro posing to construct a ship which shall carry six of these cupolas. She is to be of 2,529 tons, of 500 horse-power, and _ will carry 12 breech-loading Armstrong 100 •pounder guns in these six cupolas. Her length is 240 feet, and her draught of water 20 feet. It is very important to consider whether we cannot construct efficient armour-plated ships of consi- derably less draught, and we propose to try the experiment with Capt. Coles' vessel. She will have rather a singular ... appearance, as she will have no masts whatever, and will trust entirely to steam. Rigging is out of the question, as it would deprive her of room for training her guns. She is intended for coat defence, and if she proves service- able she will have this very great advantage over other vessels—that her cost will be much less. (Hear, hear.) I hope, therefore, the committee will consent to our carrying out the plan. (Sir J. Pakington—What will she cost ?) I should be glad to state the precise cost, but it would be very disadvantageous to the public interests that contractors should discover the cost of each separate vessel. It is in order to prevent that we put the various vessels in one vote. (Hear.) I wish to say a word as to the Warrior. It is quite natural that a vessel of novel con strnction which everybody is watching should be made the subject of evil reports and exaggerated statements. I will therefore state what I know concerning her. We have re ceived a series of reports from Capt. Cochrane (who is one of the most skilful and valuable officers in the service), but they are not of an official character. I wish they were. Everybody knows what weather the Warrior had to go through. Capt. Cochrane describes it as terrific. It was so very bad that even that noble vessel had to lay-to. Such was the awful sea, that had she exceeded the rate of four knots :an hour her bowsprit would have gone under. In spite of the gale, however, she arrived safely at Lisbon with the exception of some trivial accidents. A vessel that could go through such a trial is fit to go round the world. It has been said, however, that she will not steer properly. It is quite true that such was the case. In her construction a detail of immense importaece to the ship was neglected. The yoke was fitted in such a manner that she had not suf ficient play for her helm. In ships we usually give 36 de grees each way for the helm to move is ; that is a quadrant of 72 altogether, but in this case only 26 degrees each way were allowed. It was only natural, therefore, that the Warrior could not answer to her helm ; but that is the only serious defect in the vessel. I had the pleasure of being on board of her on her first cruise, and I must say she was the most wonderful vessel in which I ever put to sea. No doubt in the trough of the sea she has a tendency to roll ; but she is fit to go anywhere in the world. (Hear.) I have made these remarks because there are several sinister reports abroad on the subject which I believe are totally without foundation. (Hear.) A series of experiments is to take place next week, which will, in a great measure, determine the future of our iron fleet. Our present vessels, as you are aware, can y 4. inch armour plates, backed by 18 inches of teak. But we are going to make some experiments on Captain Coles' vessel to test the value of three proposals which have been submitted to us. Mr. Fairbairn declares that the wooden backing is disadvantageous, for it is liable to decay, and, owing to its thickness, interferes with the training of the guns. He proposes that we should have the armour bolted on to iron plates, instead of wood. Next comes Mr. Scott Russell, who says Mr. Fairbairn is right, as far as he goes, but that bolt-holes weaken the plates, and who accordingly suggests a system of clamping between the plates, by which that defect may be obviated. Lastly, Mr. Samuda insists that there is'no necessity for the iron-back ing at all, and that it would be much better to have thicker plates—say of five inches, and make them part of the sides of the ship. Which of these gentlemen is in the right will be shown by our experiments. I now come to the specific votes. As to the item for seamen's clothing, I must own that the state of the accounts is not altogether satisfactory, and the Admiralty is anxious to devise a better system. Hitherto, ship's accounts have been made up only once in three years, and in consequence the annual votes for clothing (which are repaid to the Treasury by deductions from the pay of the men) have been very irregular in amount. We are going, however, to introduce a system of annual accounts, by which we can keep this vote more uniform. I have looked into the accounts for the last two years, and I find that the deductions from pay have replaced the out lay for the purchase of clothing. A novelty in this vote is the appointment of an Inspector-General for the Marines, which has been deemed necessary. As to vote 2, it was re marked as singular, that while there is a reduction in the number of men there is an increase in the estimate for victuals. That is caused partly by the curing at Deptford being more expensive than when performed by contract, and partly by the rise in the price of flour and beef. I now come to vote 3, to which I must ask the attention of the committee. You are aware that a Royal Commission which inquired into the affairs of the Admiralty reported to the effect that if the Naval Department was to work with due efficiency and to command that confidence which great mili tary or naval departments require, it must have all its offi cers under one roof. (Hear, hear.) That recommendation had been made over and over again during a course of many years. The late Sir James Graham as far back as 1835 recommended to bring the several branches of the depart ment together. Well, I believe measures are at last about to be taken with a view to the construction of a wing to the Admiralty, which will correspond with the rest of the building, and will face the Park, and then all the depart ments will be contained under one roof. If the votes for that purpose are not in the estimates now before the com mittee, they will be brought in by the First Commissioner of Works, but it is my business to inform the house that, after careful consideration, her Majesty's Government have resolved to propose this matter to Parliament. There are two or three points connected with this vote which I shall mention. There is one office which we have found it neces sary to create—namely, that of Assistant-Consti uctor. The work in the Constructor's office has been vastly increased, particularly by the building of iron-cased ships; the Admi ratty, therefore, with the consent of the Treasury, have ap pointed an Acting-Constructor. Two important appoint ments in connection with the shipbuilding department, and recommended by the Royal Commission, have also been made. I beg to call the attention of my hon. friend the member for Glasgow (Mr. Dalglish) to this matter. There has been appointed, first of all, a Peputy-Accountant- General, who is to relieve the Accountant-General of a portion of his vastly increased work. There is likewise to be an auditor of yard accounts, who will be an independent officer, and will serve as check upon the expenditure in each dockyard. Now, I am informed by the Accountant-General that the very best effects have already followed in the dock yards in consequence of the new system of accounts, but every effort should be made with a view to bringing the system to still greater perfection. (Hear.) Lastly, we have a proposal for a transport service, as recommended by the Transport Committee of last year. As far as the Admiralty are concerned, they have thought it desirable that there should be a distinct transport service. The War-office, I believe I may say, thinks se too; but the heads of the Colonial-office are entirely averse to the scheme. They have given strong reasons against it, and have altogether declined to entertain it. The Indian Department also ob ject to the change at present. They think that, upon the whole, the present system of transport of troops to India is at once most economical and satisfactory. The result, however, is, that the War-office and the Admiralty have taken up the scheme, and it is intended that there shall be a transport officer and a secretary to manage the transport business. (Hear, hear.) I have already gone into the question of the Naval Reserve and the additional cost in consequence of the increase of numbers, and therefore I will say no more upon that sub ject. 'With regard to Votes 5,6, and 7, Ido not know that there is any need I should trouble the house with any re marks. With regard to Vote 8, it is intended to reduce the establishments of the dockyards to the ordinary amount of 1850, and in the event of our requiring at any time an in crease in the number of men, instead of adding to the per manent establishment—which would give a title to super annuation—we shall take on hired men. (Hear.) This year I think it my duty to take L 30,000 for a certain number of hired men, who have come lately from China. They will be discharged in summer, when they will have opportunities of obtaining work elsewhere. I pass over Vote 9, and I come to the great vote of all, which is Vote 10. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentlemen complain that we do not give information as to how the money is spent, or how it is intended to be spent, I must say that each year lets more daylight into this vote, (Hear, hear.) It will be seen that with regard to this vote we make a great reduction in timber and stores (Hear.) Now, Ido not see the right hon. gentleman the member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) in his place. [Mr. Henley just then crossed the house to his usual seat.] Well let me inform that right hon. gentleman that his good ad vice with regard to timber has been followed by the Admi ralty. (Hear, hear.) Wo have now 74,000 loads of timber. We expect to consume during the next year about 43,000 loads ; last year we consumed nearly 80,000, but we are now returning to more quiet times (hear, hear), and the result is that our expenditure is much reduced. If the committee agree to the sum which we ask, we shall find ourselves at the end of this year with nearly 80,000 loads of timber, which I think a very good and satisfactory stock. (Hear.) The reduction in the vote would have been considerably greater but for a very remarkable thing. The St. Petersburg crop of hemp failed last year ; the result was that we got scarcely any, and w e h a d t o take a very lar g e vote f o r hemp this year In consequence. One word with regard to the fram ing of this vote. It has hitherto been one vote, but the Ad miralty, with the view of gi'.ing to the House of Commons greater facilities for checking the amount, have divided it into two wholly distinct votes, thus taking away from them selves the power of transferring the money that had been voted for one purpose to another. (Hear, hear.) Well, I think that will be considered satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) Now let me state what we propose to do with the money which we ask. We propose to build 20 1-8 of wooden iron plated frigates ; in line-of-battle-ships we do not wish to make any progress at all; but to sloops and smaller vessels we intend to devote our best energies. (Hear.) Where the navy requires the greatest amount of energy at the present time is in sloops and a superior class of gunboats. Some _ _ hon. gentleman has said that we have vast numbers—more than all the world besides—of these smaller vessels. So far from that being the case, I could show that we have not in proportion a number sufficient to maintain that superiority at sea which we must ever maintain in all classes of vessels. :Hear, hear.) Now, we come to the next point—steam-en- gins. I a s k the committee to attend to this, because a _ _ grave question as to the liabilities of Government arose last year in dealing with this subject. Even the right hon. gen tleman the member for Droitwich (Sir T. Pakingten), who generally speaks with great kindness, attacked me as to my being pledged to certain sums. I think it right and fair, when you are asked to agree to a vote, to tell you what is the ultimate cost of that vote. The Admiralty, therefore, desires to show the expenditure which a vote entails not only in the present but during future years. If you turn to page 63 I will explain the new system. It will be seen that the vote for engines already ordered is i 415,880. That is what we propose to take in this year and next year, deduct ing £108,900 to be voted in future years. We require for engines already sanctioned by the house £306,980. lam going to ask the committee to agree to purchase a certain number of new engines, and they will cost £276,000, of which we propose to take during the present year £130,440, As to thatbranch of the vote, it is entirely within the power of the committee to give the whole or a part of it. None of those engines are ordered. That is what we ask you to allow us with regard to steam-engines. When we come to the vote I can show the number of engines, the horse-Power, and all the details connected with them. With regard to ship-building by contract, some hon. gentleman moved for a return of the cost of these ships. I stated why it was no advisable to give the cost of each ship. The ships building by contract are the Hector and Valiant, two troopships, and four iron-easiell ships, three already sanctioned, and one Capt. Coles' ship. Therefore the house has already agreed to three out of the four iron-cased ships, and it is for the committee to decide whether we shall commence the fourth ship. The effect of all this is that the vote is £966,141 for vessels building by contract, both the new and those sanctioned by Parliament. There is one item with which I must trouble the committee. It is the last heading, which is altogether a novelty—" for experimental purposes, sundries, and pos. Bible contingencies, £40,000." This is a large sum, I admit. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Williams.) But let it be clearly understood that if we are going to build these novel vessels we must, if we are to have anything like a certainty of suc cess, experimentaliso on a large scale. (Hear.) It is the worst policy in the world to stint your experiments, and I must tell you that in the course of building . these iron ships we continually see that some little change is necessary. I have a great dislike to alterations of ships, and I have often' expressed it ; but it is inseparable from the very novelty of these ships that we should have here and there to make alterations. (Hear.) I will state frankly that lam not prepared to say we shall spend it 01, but you must remem ber that in contracts we are tied down to a certain sum, and there must be some margin in case any little alterations should be required. I have only a word or two to say upon another item—the expenditure on docks. The great want of the day is large docks. (Hear, hear.) We hear on all sides that we have not docks enough, and that we must have larger docks. It is true that if we are to build these very large ships we must enlarge our docks. The committee last year agreed to the enlargement of Chatham Dockyard, and I have no doubt it will become one of the wonders of the world. In the present year we propose to lengthen two more docks, besides the docks already lengthened, the cost of which is detailed under the various dockyards, and the votes for which I shall be happy to explain. We propose to lengthen one of the docks at Portsmouth within the basin, to enable such ships as the Minotaur and Warrior to enter. We likewise propose to lengthen the dock at Keyham for the same purpose. In vote 11 we ask for money to commence our naval barracks at Devonport. We likewise ask for a vote to allow of building at each of our great yards machinery for bending iron plates. One of the most difficult processes is bending the plates. It is very easy to get plates either rolled or hammered. An hon gentleman asked whether we were going to use rolled plates. From experiments we have made we find there ite very little difference between rolled plates and hammered plates, only the machinery must be very powerful to roll plates above five inches. At present nothing exists to roll plates above five inches in thickness. We propose to erect at each of the five building yards hydraulic machinery, by which the plates may be bent on the spot, and put on the ships there and then. (Hear.) It is right I should allude to the civil pensions. The increase caused _by the Superannuation Act of 1859 is very considerable; in fact, my belief is that if you take the average you will find that the Superannuation Act very nearly doubles the pen sions of artificers. It is a serious question, and I call the attention of the committee to the probability that these civil pensions will increase year by year. (Hear.) Then we come to the last vote, namely—the vote for the transport depart ment; and here we have a considerable decrease. But I wish again to repeat that the £42,450 which stands at the head of the vote is the last instalment for freight of ships on monthly pay, and that with that exception the supple mentary vote included all the expenses for North America. I cannot leave this subject without one word in recalling to the committee that which no doubt has struck many before —viz., the marvellous power of this country which enabled us to send off this mass of tran'ports at a short notice and at such a time of the year without in the least degree disar ranging the intercolonial and - packet service. (Hear.) I merely mention it as interesting to every one ; and now I thank the committee for having listened to me so patiently. I can assure hon. gentlemen that we are fully impressed with the magnitude of these estimates. I am quite sure that there is no department which more earnestly desires reduc tion than the Admiralty. But remember that we have had to construct a new navy—(hear)—that we are constructing a new navy. (Hear.) Remember that we are organising a vast corps of reserves, upon whom in all future time the Inm:oar and power of this country will greatly depend. (Cheers.) It is the bounden duty of every department of the Government to look first to the protection of the country. We have lived in troublous times. If we can live at peace with all the world the Government will be only too thankful to decrease the estimates. At the same time, I will be no party to any great and sudden reduction which will cripple the navy end imperil the safety end honour of the country. (Cheers.) The noble and gallant lord concluded by moving the first vote, of £3,078,121 for the wages of 74,850 seamen and marines. Sir J. PAKINGTON believed that the committee would be of opinion that the noble lord had shown himself com pletely entitled to the attention which he acknowledged to have received. The noble lord had made a statement occu pying a considerable time, but full of great interest, and be had made it with that degree of clearness and frankness which had characterised the noble lord's statements on pre vious similar occasions. (Hear, hear.) He was happy to say that he agreed with a very considerable portion of what had fallen from the noble lord ; but there were one or two points, in respect to whisk he confessed that, at present he was unable to express his entire concurrence, and on which he should be glad to elicit some further explana tion. The noble lord explained the amount of force in commission, and its proposed distribution, but appeared to reduce the Channel fleet within limits hardy consistent with what of late years the interests of the country were 'deemed to require. He understood the noble lord to say that the Channel fleet was to be reduced to two line-of-kittle ships, two iron-plated ships—the War rior and the Black Prince, it might be presumed—and two frigates and corvettes. The amount, therefore, was limited to somo six "sr seven sail. (Lore C. Paget : " Ten sail.") He was glad to hear that correction, but he was still sorry to understand that there were to be only two line-of-battle ships among the Channel fleet, because the efficient main tenance of the Channel fleet was not only connected with the question of national defence, but involved important considerations with respect to training, disciplining, and practising the men. (Hear, hear.) In these days nothing was more desirable than that attention should be paid to steam, tactics ; and he should therefore have been glad to hear that the Channel fleet was to be maintained at a larger amount. The next statement, to which he attached great importance, was the amount of the men disposable over and above the requirements of the ships in commission, in order to afford reliefs to the ships that might be paid off. Ho understood that there were in hand at present a sufficient amount of men to man four frigates; and he congratulated the noble lord on making an approach to that state of things which seemed to be essential to the power and dig nity of the royal navy. With respect to the amount of the reserves, the noble lord's statement was highly satisfactory, but he was not sure that the noble lord did not attach a little more importance to the Coast Volunteer force than it deserved. But here, again, it was impossible with any candour or truth to deny that a rapid advance was being made, no doubt owing very much to the labours of that commission of which his hon. friend opposite was a most distinguished member ; and he was glad to see that the Admiralty were carrying out the recommendations of that commission. One of the most important recommendations of the commis sion had reference to the school training-ships, and he hoped he correctly understood the noble lord to indi cate, in referring to certain training-ships, that they were, in fact,a portion of that system. IL; attached great im portan c,e to the plan as tending to connect the Royal Navy with the merchant service, and he was glad to find that the noble lord was thoroughly aware of the importance of esta blishing a good feeling between those two services. (Hear.) He had heard with sincere pleasure that so many men of the mercantile marine had been willing to comply with the terms offered, and had expressed willingness to form part of the reserve upon which the country might depend for increas ing the Royal Navy at a period of emergency. (Hear.) The next point to which he should refer was one of those por tions of the noble lord's statement in which he was least able to express concurrence—namely, the deductions from the complements of our ships. On this point he did not re gard the explanation of the noble lord to be quite satisfac tory. The noble lord alluded to the ships being over crowded; but afterwards, 'speaking Ito t" NAllor, thy Noble lord mentioned that he had been glad to get all the men he could, forgetting at the moment all about the unhealthy state of the lower docks from over-crowding. (Hear, hoar.) He went most willingly with the noble lord's statement, as far as regarded ventilation and the adoption of all prudent means for increasing the health of the British sailor, but when the noble lord said that he was going to diminish the number of men in the lower decks and to reduce the complements of the ships, it was to be feared that by that process the efficiency of the men-of-war would be weakened. This was not a new question ; for what induced that very distingui.hed sailor, Admiral Berkeley, to resign his seat at the Admiralty some years ago ? Was it not the proposition to have peace establishments in the ships of the navy, and to reduce the number of the crew, in time of peace, to such an extent that the ships could not be worked without casting undue labour on the men, thereby placing the officers in a humiliating and painful position when they came to work the ships in the presence of the men-of-war of other countries ? He regretted to hear what fell from the noble lord on this point, and believed the reso lution come to a mistake. The contentment and satisfaction of the sailors was an important matter, and they would not be found to be satisfied orwilling to serve in the Royal Navy if they were overworked in consequence of the ships being undermanned. This matter was worthy of attention, in reference to the complement of men to be awarded to the new class of ships coming into existence. The former prin ciple in reference to manning turned, he believed, on the number of guns in each ship. This was necessarily at an end, for the number of guns was no longer a test of the size of a ship. The largest vessel in the service was the Warrior, and had only 40 guns, so that any idea of regulating the crew of a ship by the guns must be abandoned. In future the amount of the crew would require to be regulated by the rigging and size of the vessel, and by the work which the men had to perform, and he was afraid the Admiralty had fallen into a mistake in proposing to reduce the complements in the manner explained. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the question of improvement, he doubted ver3 much whether it was wise to adopt as a general rule the course of shutting sailors up in gaol, and he feared it had been too much the tendency of successive Courts of Admiralty to interfere with the discretion of commanders of ships, and to prevent them from carrying out that discipline which was so essential to the navy. Be that, however, as it might, the Government, he felt assured, was quite right in setting aside as far as pos sible the practice of sending sailors to common county gaols, inasmuch as, if they were to be placed in confinement at all, it was better they should be sent to prisons attached to the Admiralty. His noble friend, he might add, had spoken in a tone of pride of the manner in which our ships had been fitted out in a week, and no one could have cora plained more loudly than himself of a state of things in which two or three months had been occupied in the raising of crews. That state of things was, however, he hoped, at an end, and he doubted very much whether, un less in cases of great emergency, it was wise to fit out ships in a week. He said so because he was afraid that a vessel fitted out in that time might not always be sent to sea in a condition to do her credit as a portion of the British navy. His noble friend had also referred to another question of great importancc,—he meant the reduction of the arma ment of ships, and had referred to the straining of vessels as caused by the weight of the guns. Now he believed that many of the heaviest of our men-of-war had strained very much at sea of late, but then he believed the fact was attributable not so much to the weight of their guns as of their engines ; indeed he feared the tendency to strain was the unavoidable consequence of the adoption of steam. He might further observe that he had heard with great satis faction that the Admiralty intended to give a trial to Cap tain Coles' cupola ships, and the House of Commons would, he trusted, feel that the department was only taking a pru dent course in thus dealing with the most promising inven tion. He was also glad to hear the statement of his noble friend with regard to the Warrior, and he wished he had informed the c,ommitten whether the defect which he had mentioned in connexion with her could not be remedied. [Lord C. Paget—lt has been remedied.] Then he was not sure that his noble friend might not have done as well in omitting to allude to the matter altogether. (A laugh.) Be that, however; as it might, he must say he had heard with great satisfaction the statement that the Admiralty were about to abandon Somerset-house, and that the whole de partment was to be centred in one locality, although he did not know where. [Lord C. Paget—Spring-gardens-ter race.] He was glad to hear that the change:was proposed, because great practical inconvenience, in his opinion, re • suited from the division of the department. There was only another point on which he need detain the committee by ob serving, and that was the extension of our dockyards, which looking at the extension of our navy, was, he thought in dispensable. He trusted, therefore, the Admiralty would persevere in their intention to extend Chatham dockyard. fie need not detain the committee by making any further comment on the statement of his noble friend. He had, he hoped, dealt with it, as he meant to do, in a courteous spirit, and he was happy to be able to trace in the estimates laid on the table a determination on the part of the Admiralty to maintain the full efficiency and power of the Navy. (Hear.) Mr. W. WILLIAMS should like to know what was the ultimate object of the enormous expenditure proposed with the view of increasing and strengthening our fleet ? In 1852 the number of men voted for the navy was 39,000, and in the hottest year of the Russian war the number was 76,000, including 10,000 boys. The Government wanted 74,850 for the present year, and that number was exclusive of 10,000 for the Reserve. He was anxious to maintain the efficiency of the navy, but he objected to uncalled-for ex travagance, and thought the time had arri% ed when Par liament ought to interfere. The saving of £481,000 on the expenditure of last year was wholly accounted for by the smaller quantity of timber and machinery required for the present year, and in the majority of votes there was a de cided increase of expenditure. He asked the Secretary to the Admiralty to explain under what authority the Govern. ment employed about 1,880 men more than were voted last session. Mr. H. BENTINCK had listened with great satisfac tion to the clear and able statement of the Secretary to the Admiralty, and he had no fault to find with it. He had been much struck with the remarks of the hon. member for Sunderland. The hon. gentleman, like all sensible and patriotic Englishmen, was anxious to maintain the supe riority of our navy, but at the same time he had virtually asserted that there was no necessity for the existence of that navy at all. (Mr. Lindsay—No.) The hon. member had told them that the reports of the great exertions made by the French to construct and send to sea a fleet of iron plated ships were all delusive, and that no apprehensions need be entertained on that score. He had stated moreover that our own preparations were quite uncalled for, because he was convinced that the Emperor of the French had no intention to go to war with this country. (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Lindsay.) It was much to be doubted whether the hon. gentleman really knew what was passing in the mind of the Emperor of the French ; but however that might be, it would be folly to take the temper or inclination of any potentate on the face of the earth as a guide for the naval preparations of England. (Hear.) It was admitted that our navy ought to be superior to the fleets of all other countries put together. By acting upon that axiom we should pursue a safer and more economic 1.1 course than if we were to cut down our Estimates year after year, according to what might be the state of preparations in other countries and the temporary aspect of European affairs. (Hear.) The Secretary to the Admiralty had spoken of the necessity for better ventilation on board men-of-war. Did the noble lord mean to say that that was a sufficient reason for a re duction in the number of men ? Lord C. PAGET said it was one of the reasons, but he never meant to state that it was the principal reason. The principal reason was the straining of the ships, which ren dered it necessary to lighten the weights. Mr. BENTINCK could not help thinking, with all defer ence to his noble friend, that the disproportionate length of ships had a great deal more to do with their straining than any other cause. But his noble friend said the Admiralty must decide the question of the number of men ships should carry. He should like then to know if that question was to be referred to the nautical portion of the Board. If so, well and good. But they had lately heard that the civilian First Lord at the head of the Admiralty considered himself, in all cases where his views differed from those of the naval members of the Board, lord paramount. That was a very unsatisfactory state of things. With respect to the smaller class of iron vessels, his impression was that they were going to very considerable expense to alter and sheath with iron a class of vessels that would not be so useful as bis noble friend seemed to imagine. If they would expend a larger sum in the construction of vessels of the Warrior class, it would be a better outlay of money than devoting a comparatively smaller sum to the purpose of trans forming old vessels into small iron-plated ships. There was one item mentioned by his noble friend which gave him very great pleasure. One great difficulty at the Ad miralty had been that there was no fund from which to draw in making experiments and testing suggestions. He thought it most important that the Admiralty should have such a sum at their disposal. It was often stated that they were perfectly willing to afford facilities for testing valua ble suggestions, but they had not at their command funds for the purpose, and they could not undertake to say that the house would sanction such expenditure. He was, therefore, glad to learn that his noble friend contemplated a change in this respect. His noble friend wound up by saying that he considered he was making his arrangements in quiet times. He was not prepared to say these were not quiet times, but he would be a bold man who would under take to say how long quiet times would last. H e was glad, however, to find that there was to be n o material reduction in the efficiency of the navy, for nothing, he was persuaded, could be more injurious to the best interests of the country than the assumption that now, or for many years to come, such a reduction could be made. Mr. LINDSAY admitted that our first duty was to see that the country was p r operly defended, b u t th e secon d duty of the House of Commons was to see that no money was spent unnecessarily, especially . when th ere was a large body in the country suffering severely. There were a great many points in which ho agreed with his noble friend. On these he would not touch ; he would restrict himself to those on which he differed from his noble friend. The right hon. barunet the member for Droitwich agreed 'with his noble friend in almost all he said; especially h e a greed with him in spending a great amount of money, He even Iwent further, for the right hon. gentleman .appeared to think that the Chal rnel fleet was not large enough. The 1 ~1 right hon. gentleman when in office shaped his policy by t went of the noble lord the Secretary of the Admiralty With that of other Governments. The aggregate tonnage of the I great pleasure, but he could not agree with him in the plan iron-cased ships to be built this year was 70,900 tons. ti he proposed to lessen the number of guns on board seen-of- Before voting the enormous sums now asked of it, the war. He thought, however, the Admiralty deserved great, house ought t o know what was the state of our foreign rela- credit for taking the supply of provisions for the navy into tions. Agai ns t d anger from what foreign Power was it their own hands, because they would he of a better quality. that these increased armaments were prepared ? It was A vote of £370,000 for the wages of seamen was agreed said that there was to be a reduction of 2,200 in the number to, after which the Chairman reported progress. of men, and some hon. members had objected to it; yet, in The house resumed , fact, there would be no such reduction, but rather an actual BLEACHFIELDS (WOMEN AND CHILDREN increase. Last yoar the strength of the Naval Reserve was EMPLOYMENT). 25,000; now it was 40,0,0. Allowing that one fourth of Mr. BAXTER obtained leave to bring in a bill to pre the entire number would n o t b e rea dy f or se rvice when vent women and children being employed at machinery called upon, there would still remain at the lowest compu- during the night at bleachfields. tation 5000 more men of the reserve available for any emer- The bill was read a first time. gency this year than last year. Instead, therefore, of a de- PUBLIC SCHOOLS. crease of 2,200 seamen, there was an increase of nearly Mr. WALPOLE moved for a copy of the Commission 3,000 ; for it must be remembered that the reserve cost a appointed to inquire into certain public schools in England. considerable sum to the country. He would divide the Ordered. Committee on this vote if he saw any chance of doing so The house adjourned at ten minutes past 12. with effect ; but perhaps the feeble words which fell from him might yield some fruit in another year. Although we were at peace with all the world, there was evidently a strong desire on the Treasury bench to chant the old strain of " Rule Britannia"— a song which, when ever sung by any Ministry, was sure to obtain for them any amount of money from the country. He was glad that such harmony prevailed between the Royal navy and the merchant service, since the officers of the latter had been introduced into the reserve. He had striven earnestly in the commission in favour of the admission of those offi cers, but the measure had been strenuously resisted by naval men, who had a prejudice against the officers of the mer chant service, on the ground, as one witness alleged, that they were not gentlemen. The noble lord said that the boys now undergoing training made the best class of sea men ; but there was a limit to that argument. If lads who had been first employed in colliers upon our iron-bound coast afterwards received a short training for the navy they would make seamen whom he would fearlessly back against the whole world. It appeared that a ship of an entirely novel construction was to be built, but before she was laid down the opinion of the most eminent practical shipbuilders should be taken as to her sea-going qualities. He was him self on his return from Lisbon, crossing the Bay of Biscay, when the:Warrior was going out, and although he had been in many heavy gales of wind, yet he had never witnessed such a tremendous sea as was running when he passed the Warrior. He would just say that a shipof her weight that could live in such a sea and get to Lisbon without any damage, was fit to go to any part of the world. The result obtained in her case was therefore very satisfactory. (Hear.) The committee which sat upon the transport service had recommended some important improvements. While that report had been adopted by the Admiralty and the War Departments it had been ignored by the Colonial and the India Departments. He intended to call the attention of the house to the subject to-morrow evening, when he hoped to be able to induce them to support the recommendation of their own committee. Mr. CORRY, in reference to reducing the armaments of her Majesty's ships, in consequence of their being over weighted in bad weather, said that while he was at the Admiralty there was no complaints on the subject. If Armstrong guns were substituted for the smooth bores, an immense reduction would be effected in the weight of the armament without diminishing the number of the guns; for the 32 pounder, weighing E 8 cwt., in most general use in the Navy, would give place to the Armstrong 40 pounder, weighing 31 cwt. only, a diminution of 27 cwt. But smooth bore guns, at short distances, were more effective than the rifled guns. (Hear.) The reduction proposed was on an extravagant scale —as, for instance, the Shannon was to be reduced from 51 to 35 guns—a reduction of nearly one-third. He thought this was too great a reduction to be made at first, if the Shannon were to engage a French ship of 50 or 60 guns, would she be the more effective with 51 old guns or .the 35 new ones? He confessed he thought she would be most effective with the 51. It was said these heavy ar maments increased the wear and tear of the ships ; but he held that ships of war should be what they pretended to be, and not ships of peace. The weight of the armament of the Royal Oak, as a 91 gun ship, would have been 260 tons, which was more than she ought to carry. Lord C. PAGET.-533 tons, Mr. CORRY said that included gunners' stores. The guns weighed 260 tons. With 50 guns the weight would be 106 tons. Lord C. PAGET wished to correct an impression which he thought he had conveyed to the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington), that during the coming year there would be in the Channel only two line-of-battle ships and two iron-cased frigates. What he had stated was the force they now had, but he gave the force of men they proposed for next year, and this would suffice to maintain three line-of battle ships, three iron-cased frigates, two wooden frigates, and four corvettes, making a total of 12 instead of ten. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Norfolk had stated correctly that our ships had very fine ends, and the guns could not well be put there. It was certain that these ships would act bear any great weight of guns in their ex tremities. The new plan was of a tentative nature only. He had attempted to show that the introduction of a certain number of Armstrong guns would make up the weight of broadaides caused by the reduction of guns. Thus the loss of weight upon the broadside of the Shannon in conse quence of the new arrangement was no more than 100 lb • Captain Dickson, of the Trafalgar, had reported that he had no difficulty in manning his guns and in working his yards, and he believed that the objections to the plan would soon vanish. Mr, CARDWELL observed that the hon. member for Sunderland appeared to labour under the supposition that the commission were opposed to the scheme of the reserve. As a member of the commission, he (Mr. Cardwell) could state, on the contrary, that they were most anxious to see the arrangement carried into effect; but the reason wby it was not reported upon was, that it was not within their order of reference, and, therefore, was not inquired into. The commission had great difficulties to contend with on that head, inasmuch as the impression everywhere prevailed that a naval reserve could not be carried out, it being con sidered that the recollection of former times, especially of compulsory service, would render the attempt hopeless. The barrier between the two services had now happily been broken down, and the union of the two assured the future security of the country. With respect to school-ships and a merchant seamen's fund, much, no doubt, still remained to be accomplished ; but still, they might all be grateful that so much had already been done, a result which was very much owing to the useful exertions of Captain Brown, the registrar of seamen. Admiral WALCOTT expressed his regret at the reduc tion of the men, which he said would cause great dissatis faction. He deprecated any reduction of their armaments which would impair the efficiency of the ships, but he highly approved of the new training ships. He thought they ought also to have troop ships, which were essential is many important respects. Mr. LINDSAY thought that if any person was entitled to credit for the formation of the naval reserve he ought to be allowed at least some share, inasmuch as he had advo cated that measure when it was opposed by the Govern ment and nearly every one else. After a few words from Mr. CARDWELL, Admiral DUNCOMBE expressed approval of the pro posed reduction of we ght and armament in our ships of war. He regarded it as a measure of economy, and he suggested that the weight of the yards and rigging should also be diminished. Sir M. PETO considered that the combination of wood and iron must necessarily lead to the construction of a weak vessel. He was in possession of information to show that wherever they were used in combination there would be great straining, whereas in a vessel built wholly of iron, with its proportions carefully studied, there would be little or none. He had stated his regret that we had not fol. lowed the example of the Emperor, but now we had begun to do so he would say do not go on too fast in an untried path. He was ready, therefore, to accord the greatest possi ble indulgence in pursuing their experiments. Complaints had been made of their building too many wooden ships be fore they were certain as to the best mode of construction. He would say that we were now in much the same position with our iron ships. We had enough to experiment upon, and his own conviction was, that ultimately our channel fleet would have no masts at all. He had also suggested that it was desirable that the Admiralty should reconsider their establishments. He knew all the difficulties in the way. It would be hard if, in consequences of changes in the mode of construction, men who had served their country well and long, but now no longer useful, should be dis charged ; but the cheapest way would be to give them a liberal retiring pension. He was sure that an iron fleet would not require us to maintain such largo esta blishments in future as we had hitherto. A pro perly-constructed iron ship, if not unduly worked, would last for 50 years, and we should not require a 8 1 ? 3 _ 11 0 like three millions to be spent in repairs for our fillips. objected, also, to the large sum which we w ere spend? -t mg upon fortifications and works at Portsmouth. Wewiere s pending millions in th e en d ea vour to mak e l a t wasplace not a pregnable which was no longer serviceabl e. place to which we ought to take our s hips to be repaired. The time had come w h e n we ought to spend a large sum for the purpose of providing a sufficienthtanto d p b r e oper place would be for the repair of vessels, and n Water some few miles inland, and perhaps Soutth th ha at on ta g haemn PortsP quite cmonocuthurred With the best, certainly much better than respect to the transport .8 all the noble lord ha d said aserve to the way in which the com panies came forward in th t e h c e a G se ov o e f r C um an e a n d t a ;and lt was most creditable to them and to he was sure the more the Government looked to the commercial marine to assist them in time of war, the more they cemente d t h e Governmen t and the commercial public. Lord PALMERSTON observed that his hon. friend the member for Sunderland and his hon. friend the member for Montrose charged him with having made a great mistake last year as to the number of iron ships being built by the French Government. Now, if there was a delusion any where it was en their parts. Ho stated that the French Government were building 26 iron ships, that some of them were completed and others in progress, and, unless he was very much mistaken, they determined a short time ago to add ten more to that number. Mr. BENTINCK thought it would be of great advan tage to the public service to have a small number of troop ships always ready for any service that might be required. Sir J, ELPIIINSTONE had heard the very able state- DIVORCE AND DEATH. In the Court of Session, on Thursday, evidence• was taken in an action of divorce at the instance of Captain Charles Campbell Hook against his wife, Mrs. Flora Campbell Galbraith or Hook. The first witness examined was the sister of the pur suer, Mrs. Margaret Cecilia Hook or Ghie, who deposed to having been present at the marriage of the pursuer and defender at Campbelton, in 1840. She also gave evidence to the effect that the pur suer, who had been in India, returned to this country, in January, 1860, after an absence of seven years; that he resided with the witness in London, and slept in her house every night till he went to Jersey for the benefit of his health ; that he spent all the time between January and December, 1860, either in witness's house in Lon don, or in Jersey • and that he went to Edinburgh in December. Major Manley deposed that he left India with the pursuer, and corroborated the evi dence of the preceding witness as to the pursuer residing in London. Donald Maclean, West Port, near Campbelton, gave evidence to the effect that the defender lodged in his house for some time before April, 1860; that the last time she was in the house she became intimate with another lodger, named David Holden, who was a rabbit killer; that in December, 1859, he thought he heard Holden go into the defender's room a bo ut twelve o'clock at night, and that he and his wife went into the room and found Holden in bed with the defender; that after that time Holden and the defender took their food together in the defender's bed room ; and that in April, 1860, both the de fender and Holden left his house together, their luggage being taken away by the same man. Mrs. M'Lean, wife of the preceding witness, cor roborated his testimony. Several other witnesses gave evidence as to the intimacy between Holden and the defender while they were in I\i'Lean'e lodgings. Mrs. Emily Brown, residing in Nelson street, Edinburgh, deponed that the defender came to her house in the end of April, 1860, ac companied by a man called David Holden, and stayed till the December following. ,In October she gave birth to a child, and Holden was in the house on the night of the birth, and went with witness for !the doctor. Holden was under-game keeper at the Inch, near Edinburgh • but before he went to the Inch in June or July, the defender and he occupied the same bed once or twice in her house. In 1861 the defender and Holden had slept together in her house. At the close of the evidence on Thursday the case was adjourned to a day to be afterwards fixed ; but it has now been terminated in a melancholy and unexpected manner by the sudden death, on Saturday, of the defender, at her lodgings in Nelson-street. She had for some time been drinking freely, and on Saturday she had lain down on a sofa in her room, where she was allowed to remain for some time unnoticed. At length, on the landlady going to the sofa to rouse her, it was discovered she was dead.—Scotsman. COUNTRY MAJRLTh. ~.,. w-~-----_ COLCHESTER—FEB. 22. To-day a moderate supply of wheat, and late prices were supported for good samples; inferior sorts still a slow sale. Barley maintains its price, but still in middling supply Beans and peas were unchanged in price. Wheat, white 548 688 Beans, Mazagan..36s 40s red 46s 64s middle & small.4oB 44s Barley Oats CHELMSFORD—FEB. 21. A fair supply of wheat, which was taken off slowly/ barely maintaining late prices. Beans is lower, and little doing, owing to the inferior qualities offering. All other Spring corn at late rates. Wheat, old white 28s 598 new 47s 66s old red 278 51s new 52s 62s Barley 308 39s Chevalier ..30s 42s Grinding 24s 32s Malt.,.. Chevalier . ..... 648 69s Oats 23s 30s Peas, Partridge 375 415 White 39s 455 Boiling 4ls 470 Dun 36s 40s Ditto new —s —5 Beans, Tick, old 3ss 41s new 358 415 Harrow Ticks 378 430 new 376 42s Mazagan 32s 35s GLOUCESTER—FEB. 22. A better supply of English wheat, and the sales made are at a reduction of is upon late prices. Foreign in lin uEed demand, and is lower. Other articles unaltered. KIRKCALDY GRAIN—FEB. 22. We :had moderate supplies today of wheat and (lei' , and small of barley. Sales for wheat and oats at previous prices ; barley 6d more money. Wheat. Barley. Oats. Fir5t....438 Od 238 Od 2os Od Second ..50s Od 29s Od 23s 6d Third....s9s Od 32s Od 278 6d COAL M . ARKr T. (rrioea of Coal per Ton a a. d. the olose of the market 0 . d. Byass's Bebside West Hartley ...14 6 Tanfield Moor Butes..l2 6 Davison's West Hart- Walls:End. Hetton .. l6 g Russel's Hetton 14 7 ,, Brsddyll'a Hetton 15 u R elloe South Hartlepool... . 5 . .. 1 5 4 Hartlepool.. Ridde11....., l4 0 , Eden 14 6 Acorn Close 14 6 Framwellgate 14 Trimdon Hartlepool l5 u Triandon Thornley l3 ~,„ Keiper Grange.... l4 '' i South Hetton ~.16 0 14 6 West Wylam 13 0 Carway and Duffryn Malting 24 0 Do. Anthracite 21 Eden Main .. 14 6 1 Lambert's West Hart ley 14 0 North Pelton 12 6 Walker Primrose 11 6 Grey's West Hartley 13 9 West Hartley 14 6 Ships at marks )t, 96 ; sold, 60. FOREIGN MAIL _PACKET LIST. MAILS DUE. Australia and Mauritius, via Southampton. Mar. 21 ' via Marseilles Mar. 15. Brazil and Cape Verds, by British packet . Marc h 6. Cape of Good Hope, Ascension, and St. Helena.. Marc h 3. China, Penang, and Singapore, via Southarnpton.Mar. 4,; via Marseilles ...Feb. 21' Falkland Islands Gibraltar, via Southampton Feb. 74 u, • India (Calcutta), and Ceylon, via Southampton Mar. t via Marseilles Feb. 2 1 . India (Bombay), via Southampton Feb. 25. via Marseilles Feb. 20. Lisbon Feb. 21. Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via Southampton Feb, . via Marseilles Feb. 27. Newfoundland . : Feb. 2l. Oporto and Vigo U. S. and British N. America, by IT ' S ' T ? ac-e acke . i.Feb. 19. Canadian P M 10 ' iffe .......... ar. , W.C. of Africa, Madeira, and loner Bahamas, via New York .............. ........ Mar. 13. b.y..8.r.i.t.. ................. ,Feb. 27. .. ....Feb. 28. Mexico ....... .1. , ' 1 Feb. 28. California, and British Columbia.. All parts of West Indies, ........... Chi 1, Peru, .5 BIRTHS. Bunßown the 23d bast , at 1, Pittville Houses, Lea' bridge -road, Clapton, the wife of Samuel Burrows BM., of a son. NICHOLAS: On the 24th inst., at Spring-grove, Islewortb, the wife of Major Nicholas, R,F.P., sth Fusiliers, of a daughter. itowDE N.—On the 23d inst., a t H amps t ea d ' the wife o f Francis Rowden, Esq., barri s t er - a t-l aw , o f a son. MARRIAGES. TARVIS—CRANK.—On the 22d inst., at St. Philip's Churebil Balaton, Harriet, th e third daughter of the late St e p hen Jarvis, Esq., o f the Prerogative-office, Doctors' -cora : mons, to W. H. Crank, Esq., C.E , one of the defender' of Lucknow in the late mutiny. 01l SHENTON — FRosT.—On the 22d inst., at the parish cha r to of Hitcham, Bucks, William Kerot Shenton, EST' Annie, youngest daughter of Philip Frost, Esq. DEATHS. AVELINE.—On the 23d inst., at Brighton, PendockWil liaDl Aveline, Esq., late of Camberwell, aged 66. BRAYE.—On the 21st inst., in Great Stanhope-street, MAY" fair, the Baroness Braye. CLEMSON.—On the 22d inst., at Lower Tulse-hill, George Clemson, Esq., aged 49. EAsLEy.—On the 23d inst., Abraham Easley, of BOW" ' Cottage, West Hackney, aged 76. FELLOWES.—On the 23d inst., at 48, Upper Harley- Henry Fellowes, Esq., aged 79. HENRY.—On the 24th inst., at 49, Queen's-gardens, Hyde" park, Alexander Henry, Esq , for many years ,Secretary to the Imperial Pas -light and Coke Company. STRIKE.— On the 14th inst., at Winkfield, Berks, V 11.5 ' Esther Strike, at the advanced age of 103 years, possess ing all her faculties to the last, leaving three sons, age' respectively 79, 77, and 75 years, twenty-four grand-, children, tifty-one great grandchildren, and two g reat great grandchildren. WlLLis.—On the 23d inst., at Brixton, William WilliS, street , Esq., of the Inland Revenue •officP, Some 410 01 aged 60. Low Dori : Printed and rublißlied by MIIIIDO YOIINkx of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at TnE SUN Otttee, No. 112,Siransl in the Precinct of the Savoy In UK' County of igiddi" el4 Tuesday, February 25, Iso2. DR Messrs. ton, Ati After pleteneE Annual tingniat CARL: "Ira BUD set ti there ah !le sum be y &cell trary ne Assisi Masks, 2)osigns The C T sistants. orations, Adams, son, Mr. by Mr. Mr. Col 111e , sis. Flowers The G FY E.L. 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