The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-14 00:00:00

of Italy ; and since that period, had added the ter_ ritory of Parma to their 'dominions. Under these circumstances, he thought an adequate de. gree ofconfidence ought to be reposed in Ministers, in proportion. to the emergency : indeed, those points he alluded to were so publicly notorious as to be known to every one who walked the streets. England, however,. need entertain no fears, but should adopt a plan of prudent caution. A tub jea too contemptible to have many words. wasted upon it, had by some means crept into the discus sion : he alluded to the affair of Tandy ; but what had taken place with_ respea to him, had no Sort of reference to 'any., Foreign Power whatever. The }louse had heard what had 'fallen from the Noble Secretary of State, hi's rebellious attempts were well known, but he wished the subje& had been en tirely kept out of the discussion; it was too con _ temptible to have either words or time wasted upon it, and in `the possible contingency of future' opera; tions, it would be rather advantageous , the French should employ so useless and iusigniticant a tool. With regard to the ihstance of Capt. D'Auvergne, it was otherwise ; but it was to be observed, that the moment his detention' was known to the King's iVlinister :',at Paris, application was made,. and that gallant Officer released. [A loutl_cry of hear ! hear! from - the Opposition,Lotds.] He was averse from every thing that would tend again to hurry the Country into a War with France ; at the sametime, he saw nothing in the national circumstances.which slioutd warrant despondency.—With respcl to His Majesty's present Ministers, in whom he had the highest confidenee, the peculiar difficulties in which they were placed on their accession to office, ought to be candidly remembered ; they had made the best Peace that, under all the circumstances of the case, could be obtained : they saw there was no salutary objea to be attained by continuing the War ; and they 'saved our finances from farther injury by Pacification.—They could not possibly aver that the Peace would be permanent and secure, as that would depend on the conilud of others as well as themselves, and, therefore, on those grounds they were - free from censure.• • The Earl of CARLISLE spoke shortly in expla nation. Lord GRENVIL-LE observed, that what fell frona the Noble Lord (LANIER Tex) should always meet with attention and respea—but before he proceeded farther, there was one point which he must observe 'upon, namely, the, impression what fell from the Noble Secretary. of State.made upon - the House, and upon the .Noble Lord in particular ' resyeaing the affair .of Capt. D'Auvergne :—On. this however, had Noble Lords taken the pains to inform themselves correctly, the result would be dif. ferent—and he was strongly of opinion, that the case merited future inquiry.—With , regard to the case of ,Napper Tandy, he felt it incumbent on him to say a few words : he widely differed from the opinion expresied by the Noble Duke, and he must pointedly deny, that his apprehension at Ham burgh was at all contrary to Law. So far from it, the process was 'strictly conformable to the known Laws of that City ; and; it was done principally to shew, that England felt herself as much intitled to justice in that quarter, and to the benefit of those Laws, as France experienced in other instances,- -With 'resped to the question regularly in discussion before the House, " That the Bill be now read a first time :" his opinion was, that, under all the circumstances of the case, the Bill ought not to be then read. It was the uniform custom of Parliament, and the custom. of Parliament was the law of Parliament—" Lex et consuetudo Par liamenti," that no great Supplies should be grant ed, except for reasons distinaly assigned—this -would appear on the Journals, and he thought that the House should pause, and follow the example of Our ancestors on all 'occasions of large Supply, 'which, if former periods merited their laudable caution, what must one like the present do, which was allowed universally to be so alarming and mo. mentous ?. He combated the idea that it was in tended to force improper explanations from Mini sters—explanation from them was the present ob jed, a distind and regular communication from the Throne was requisite on such an occasion ; and speaking of the language which had been used in the' discussions of, the general subjea, his Lordship made some allusiOns to what.had been held in the other House of Parliament, to shew the inconsistency of those who; maintained opinions con trary to those urged from his side of the. House. They did not now call upon 'Ministers to justify themselves ; their observations tended to -blame them for not advising a Royal Communication on the occa. :aim), and their objea was, by a temporary delay of the progress of the Bill to afford them anopportunity of reaifying that omission. In thus observing, he wished it to be understood that he offered no opi nion as to the extent of the proposed Establishments, 'the policy and wisdom of those was entirely rela. tive : his opinions on this part of the subject, he would reserve for future opportunities of discus tic!: ; _he 'would only observe, that if 130,000 ,men was deemed an adequate number while we retained Malta and the Cape, 'it would be redundant in case those Possessions were given up. Wi t h reaped to 'these, the conduct of Ministers was notorious ; the Cape partieufarlY, which they had determined on, rand afterwards hesitated to surrender—at length the former measure -was- fatally deterthined, and per haps the last orders were ere now executed... The question asked by his Noble Friend, on what day it was the Noble Lord's intention to move for the second reading of the Bill,was not only parliamentary and regular, but very common. In his own 22 years of parliamentary experience, he had known such ques tions put to the King's Ministers at least Loa times, • and which he thought should be always answered ; and he concluded with repeating his observation, that tinder the present circumstances, the House was nnr in a situation, according to the Law and Custom of Parliament, to grant large Supplies. The LORD CHANCELLOR replied to thelead ing arguments of the Peers in, Opposition, with great ability and at. considerable length. . He agreed 'that the Noble Lord who spoke last had correctly itated the real question before the House ; at the same time, it was the general price to . read Bills. coming from the other House, almost without any :explanation respetling them; but Noble Lords were at liberty to use their discretion, and at accord. ing to their consciences in that respel. r He like. wise generally agreed with the. Noble Lord'as to the law and custom. of i'arliament. With resped to the afrairOf Tandy, which had been mentioned in the _Debate, and to what had beon said generally upon his case; he would remind the House, that he had been.legally convicted of High Treason, ..and in considering that point, he must observe to a Noble Earl, whose high private character and worth, will always cause what falls from him to' be attended with respeCl---,though he wished to make ,the observation in the most respeEfful manner-possible, that the substance . of his 'obser vation on. the case- of Tandy had a tendency to refled upon-• the admioistration of justice in this Country, so far frora,,4;hat he had observed being well founded, that the Noble Earl might as Well say, the advice he had had the honour of giving his-Sovereign on Wednesday last, in reference to ,the disposal of some highwaymen, was influenced by the fear.of the First Consul of France, as that the conduCt of Ministers with resped to Tandy was so influenced. A great deal had been said respecting the late Treaty of Peace.' On that head, he as well as othrs, felt like an old Englishman, burits merits had already been decided on : it was made according to - the best of the judgments of Ministers. Under all.the circumstances, they thought it their duty to conalude' it; but was it not notorious, that the circumstances of the Continent had been changed, and the power of France incalculably increas. ed ? These points should be corisideied in ,refer ence to increased Establishments,. the immense line of Coast possessed by France should also to be taken into the .calculation. The Noble and Learned Lord deprecated- the idea of Ministers being bouod to answer eery question put to them ; on some occasions, and his Noble Friend would agree with him in so thinking, it was the duty of Ministers to be.silent, on others it was as fully in. cumbent on them to speak out ; and there was no part of his Noble Friend's Parliamentary conduct, while a Minister, that he more approved of than that just disdain with which he was in the habit• of treating such questions as he alluded to. In such views, his sincere advice would' be to others, as well as Mi nisters, " Go On in the strait line of duty ; be not diverted from it, and .believe me, my .L.:rds, it will do you honour at last." Drawing to conclusion, his Lorship again adverted to the increased power of France, and the state, of the continent, which were of undeniable public notoriety, and which were ample grounds for a circumsped conduCt and powerful Establishments on the parr of this Coun try. It was not, however, he pointedly observed, so much a, power of going on arming, that was about to be conferred ,on Ministers, blita reserva tion of a power to them of not disarming should eirtumstances warrant it. The Earl ; of CARLISLE rose. a third, time, and addressed their. Lordships, but, was proceeding in such a line of argument, as induced Lord CAT II CART, to speak to Order. _ The Earl of CARL 11. E -and the Lord CHAN CE LLOR, severally spoke in 'explanation. Lord GRENVILLE begged leave just to notice, a few points_ whicir had fallen from his Noble and' Learned Friend, and particularly his observatiogf, with re6ped to improper disclosule on the part of Ministers. iis remembered with pleasure the just disdain" with which he had treated impor tunities of that kind; but his Noble and Learned Friend would do him the, justice to recoiled, that though some questions might be, properly so treated, all should not. The LORD CHANCELLOR anti Lord GRENVILLE afterwards spoke in Explanation. The question was then put, and the Bill read a a first time. With mina to the tittle- of the second reading of the Bill, a few words in an under-tone of voice took place between Lords PELHAM, 6•RENVILLB, and the Noble Lard on the Woolsack ; after which, the second reading, as we could coned, was fixed for to-mOrrow. Lord PELHAM-presented certain Accounts yela_ tine to the, Exportation, &c. of Corn, which were ordered to be laid on the Table. Mr. Ow Ew, from the East-India House, present. ed at the Bar certain Papers and,Documents, pursu ant to theirLordships' Address of the 3d inst. The Bills brought up eroin t the Commons, were then severally . read a first time, and some routine business - disposed of. At Nine o'clock their Lordships adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. MONDAY, DEC. 13. THE Malt Bill was read it third time and passed. LOrd . GRANVILLE LEVESON GOWER. presented a Petition from certain Freeholders,of the County of Stafford, against the Duties on. Malt imposed by' an Att of last Session.—Ordered to lie on the Table. • The Pension Duty Bill was read a third time and passed. The Exchequer Bills Bill was read a third, time and passed. Dr. LAWRENCE gave notice, that he should, on an early day after the Recess, bring forward a Motion with which the National .Honour was deeply conne6ed, concerning the Arrest of Capt. D'Auverane and another Gentleman . in Frahee - ; also respe a ding the suppression of Letters . written by them, J epresenting their situation to the Bri tish Minister . at Paris, respeaing• certain interro gatories put to - thexn, for the purpose of obtaining the Secrets of the King's Government, and re-speCt ing.the manner in which they left that Country. :Lord HAPPICESBURY said, this was rather an unusual mode of giving notice of a Motion, . but whenever the Honourab!c Gentleman thought pro per to bring it on, he would state what occurred to him upon the Subjed. ' Sir H. INGLIS presented a Petition from the Chemists and Druggists of Ashburton, against the Medicine Duty Aft.--Ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report of the Committee of Ways and Means; the Resolution having been read, ' Mi.PREVSEP said, that, he in common with other Gentlemen, felt great satisfaction at the very flourish. ing state in which the CRANCELI,OR of the Estest ts • QUER, had represented this Country to be, but there were some points-upon which be wished to say a word or issics - ;.and first, with regard to the number of Ex chequei Bills - which it was intended to have in circu lation, he wished to know ; if so great a number were • to he kept in circulation as the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had • stated, whether it might not be attended with some inconveniences. An other subjeet s which appeared to him to be Of the greatest importance, viz. .that of 'esta blishing a Commercial Intercourse bet Ween this Country and France. He did not mean to throw any blame upon the present Ministers upon this subjea. Lie knew' they could not have introduced any articles to that effed into the Treaty of Amiens, though their predecesSors in office had had frequent opportunities of concluding such a Treaty almost upon their own terms: But -the con sequence of not having a Commercial Treaty, would be that a clandestine trade to a great amount would he carried on. The best way, perhaps, to prevent. this, if no Commercial Treaty could be agreed upon, would be at once to 'take off all restridions upon Coinmerce, and to offer . to Foreign CoUntries to let them trade with all our Possessions, *if they would'give us the same privilege. He then alluded to an observation which he supposed to have fallen from Mr. WINDHAM, viz, that, too much attentions had been paid to commercial objeds in this Court s try. With resped to the representation which had been made of our Income, it, 'certainly was very" flattering ; but there was no certainty of its Conti ruing to increase, or even of its remaining as high: as it was at present, and therefore he did not think that the CHANCELLOR (it the EXCHEQUER ought to have relied upon it somuch as to have taken, • credit for, Six Millions and a Half as the growing produce of the Consolidat9d Fund. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 'rose to correa two errors into which the Finn. Gets. tleman had fallen, in the course of his speech. The: Hon. Gentleman • seemed to apprehend, that the number of Exchequer Bills would be so great as . to produce some inconveniences. Undoubtedly, if the five millions of Exchequer Bills which had been voted, were to be issued immediately, and in addi tion to that sum, eleven millions more, it might produce the embarrassment which the Hon. Gentle man seethed to apprehend ; but they were to be is sued . gradually, and in succession, and at no time would the number of Exchequer Bills exceed those which were nosy in circulation. He had a - few days ago given notice, that it was his intention, in the course of the Session, to propose to , fund a certain number of Exchequer Bills, the effect of which wobld be to prevent too great a circulation of them in the Market. - It would, however, be sufficient for him to state, that the number ,of Ex chequer .Bills outstanding next year, 'would very little, if - at all, exceed those now in circulation, which amounted to eleven millions, exclusive of the three millions in the possession of the Bank. The Hon. Gentleman had stated, that it• was pro posed to vote 6,500,0001. as the growing produce of the Consolidated Funds The- fad was, he only proposed to vote 4,000,000; 'though he had cal.. culated the growing produce at 6,500,000 ; and if the other quarters were equally produftive with the last, the produce would be above '7,800,0001. With regard to what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman respefting Commercial Arrangements, it would be irregular for him then to say any thing upon the subjedt ; but he hoped to convince .the House, in the course of the present Session, that, His Majesty's Ministers had not been inattentive to the Commer cial interests of the Country. Mr. WINDHAM said, he also wished to cor. red some misconceptions into which' the Hon. Gen tleman had fallen. He seemed to think, that he (Mr. WistCHAM) had said, that too much : attention was paid to Commercial Objefts. If the Hon. Gentle man supposed that he had ever, upon any occasion, set up . National Interests against Commercial in terests,- he was mistaken. In point of fad, all the great interests of the Country were so blended and interwoven, that it was impossible to Separate them, or to set them up in opposition to each other. An expression had been very often alluded to, and at. tributed to him, which he never used, viz. " Perish . Commerce, so that the Constitution remain." If it We're' possible that those two objeas could be put in cohipetition, he certainly should have no great difficulty in determining which to prefer ; but it was impossible to separate them :sif the Constitu tion were destroyed, our Commerce would fall with it ; and if the whole of our Commerce were de stroyed,' our Constitution would probably nor long survive it. He recolledcd ' , having said; that there might be _questions on' . Wisieh might not be safe to give - too- much weight to the opinions of Merchants and Tradeis, because it must be obvious, that occasions might trise, in which their indiVidual interests Might not be, the same as the Commercial Interests of the Couotry,— Nobody could,be more ready than he was to 4yow, that there were among Merehants and.Tradels, of as liberal views, as large. and enlightened minds", as 'in any other-profession. Many, .Gentlemen, whom he then saw, fully justified that obserVation. But ; still it could 'not,. be denied, that their privatt interests might, upon some . occasions, not coincide .with those of Trade in ,general. Their int e r ests ' might be limited, and temporary, whereas, the ges neral interests of Trade were permanent and, last ing. , With regard to what the Honourable. Gentleosan had said about taking off the' ReStridions upon Trade, the effed of which would* to lay aside our Navigation Laws, he confessed he felt a consider able degree of jealousy at such a proposition, and he knew that such a plan hltd been suggested by Citizen ,HAUTERIVEi with the, avowed . objea of - destroyjng our Commerce. - Mr. , DICKENSON, jun. was surprised that any doubts should beeilter rained respecting our Commerce continuing in its present flourishing situation. The cessation of \Var On the. Continent must be favour_ able to population, an increase of population must . make an increase in the demand, .and when there was a great demand people would naturally tesort to the best market, which was undoubtedly this Country ; so that in his opinion there was no dan ger of our Commerce declining. _ _ _ Afr. NIRDON 'said, he wils'happy to find that it way the intention of fhe'cHANc.F.LJ.Qtt of the • EXCTIVQIIFR to keep Exchequer Bills at soc' T o f medium, as that there shoal:? ,sot be - too ml be them in 'circulation, a n d yet t h at there enoegli for the convenience of trzi(l.e. The ment of the CHANCELLOR of the F,xc.ri Etat; 63 ,, he given eteat. satisfaetion to all ranks of people; 1r adhered' to his plan, it , would fix his charatter i • the opinion of the Public, and prove that he w fit for the situation to which he was called by his: Sovereign., • s , c , Mr. FANS/77AV' said, the demand for chequer Bills had been so great, that they e re a premium, _and requests had' been made chat 19°. ' might be put in circulation. • 1 he Resolution was then agreed to. • ELECTION PETITIONS. r7a The CHANCELLOR of the 4X.311E0----- rose to make the Motion, of which he had tg P; C• notice respeCting the putting oft`thi EleCtion tions that were fixed for hearing- in the present ' in the ensuing month. In snaking this M o tion , m was his objed, 'and he hoped -the House would c ( l''; cur with him, ' that as little d e l a y s h ou ld ta ke . I' ll ` as possibl e ,, a nd t he re f ore tie should propose, sitar two Petitions should be fixed for each day of b e ,; ing th em , viz . Tuesdays an d Thursday s , until ( `' o: • delay whiela would be occasion e d by p utt ing 0 1 : c` i ch . off would he m a d e u p, an d t h at t h e P et i t weie fixed for hearing late in the Session . 111:!“ be still further retarded. It ce'rtaioly m'n,c wi,h of the . House to get through., triaay, of them, this Session, and if t he or din ary atteool; was not the House wou ld resort ' t o means in their power . to compel a fon „ t „teclanC'' for the pUrpose of doing justice to the parties CO • cerned, and' tPprevent those imp utat i ons . w hich 11: • been thrown, though unjustly, upon tiariner F.i r° !laments,' for the delays. which had occurred 111 ` lei tiding upon - Election Petitions. He then nlO 6 l that the Order for hearing the fi rs t P et i t ion 511 0 ' 1 be discharged, for the purpose of fixing - it for El i ' Bth of February. Mr. HURST said, he had' been returned for VA places, Shaftesbury and S:cynif,g, and therefore' wished Petition against him should 14e hearing as early as possible.' Lord TEMPLE said, he thought some re:l s ° ought-to be assigned f o r p utt i ng off the Petitions for so long a time. • • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER s 3id : House; if the Noble Lord had been i n t h e .ouse;.°',„ l .: forther occasion, he would have hea r d him . sor e " i ; reasons . foi the Motion. He had stated, stilt h ess was not aware that 'the state of P u blic l'"'" n ,h e would require that the House shoUld meet aft er -: recess . till February. That it w ou ld be highlY) „ ; convenient to . proceed to hear t h e P et i t ions be rc ?` the. recess; anal that there was no i nstance in white, the House - had proceeded to try Petitions at sO 131,e, a period of the year. With resped to what . c fallen frdin an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. 1 - loasT)) / , 'was certainly entitled to attention, as he was r` • turned for two places, the Petition against .lies would claim priority over the ordinary Petit ofl ea The Order for hearing the first Petition was t h o 'discharged, and the hearing of the Petitions w fixed in the fallowing order : Sri The Burgh of Dunferniiine, a double return, th e ' February. . • \ . 1 of shaftesbury, the Pe titicn against Mr. Hurst, rernr" c ` two places, the Bth February. • CGS Dublin iniyersity, a Peti(lon under similar circtnns'-n with the former, loth February. Feb/ , Great Grimsby, loth Feb.—N o tti ng h am , ti th - te ach ' Barnstaple, isth Feb.- 7 Coventry, 17th 17th Feb.--Kirkcudbright, 224 Feb.—lnverness 22 ''orOt' —Liskeard, 24th Feb.—Waterford City, 24th Feb. heda, tst Afarch—Hereford County, Est March—re';o o 3d March—Stranraesi 3d March—Chippenham ii:;" 0; 11 1 --Carmarthen County, Bth March— , llchester; tart' —East Grinstead,-, loth March—Clasgow, Litt' A 44 ' , 13c11 Oakhampton, sth Mir.th—Harwich, 17th ;vlarcil - 0 1 - wick, 17th March—Taunton, 22d March Boston , n th March—Malmesbury, 24th March—Stirling County , T 9 tll March-Cirencester, 29th March—Bishop's Castic , va rcl , March—Eveshani, 3 tst Marcri-•-East Retford, 31st —Newcastle, sth April—Radnor County, ctlt April—Ariv storr-upon,l4 1 4 th April -- LeUMIUS!Ci, r4th Aylesbury, 19th April—Middlesex, 19:11 Aprl l----a 3 ills t 21st April—lloniton 21st April—Shaftesbury Petitionag Mr, Loveden, 26th April. The other Petitions remain in the order tree were before fixed. Dif Sir C. BAMPFYLDE moved the Order of the for resuming the Debate upon the Middlesex rc Lion. . • , The SPEAKER having stated the,Queation, fara the House, . r. c bis Mr. TIER N said, that in . rising to .s t ' lf sentiments opon EY the Question before the liou se " ro r o e wished to declare tha t he was actuated by 00 P, 3 ,. feeling, though, he .should not have thoug'eale ilecesaary to make this declaration if he was 'l,' ie . : , ins upon any other Subjed than the Middlesc‘ tion. Those who were of opinion that the' tion could not be - received, ,founded their 0 1 )1 ' e l s e 'upon the Grenville Art, under which, they . sai': 1 ' r• House' had .no power to receive this rc ut ale He . admitted that ther e was a consid er 'af degree of difliculty in this case, and lie had 05 no means' made 'up his opini o n so decide d , l ,Y e not to be Open to. convilion on the other It had been suggested out of doors, that ther e •"° t a • eti scale private obje:d to be attained by this P L . mr, aial that. i,t ,was meant to take advantage 01 . * p c . AilAi NW AR I DG. •If he was of opinion that this, ~ .tition had tally such objet in view, would not ,give it his support. The Petition c itoo upon the justice' of the House to.guard .the El . e i sir against the consequences that would ensue 13URDETT . diould die before a,day was arP C .,,,, s e, for hearing the - other Petition, because, in that Ural' Mr: MAI NWAR iNp would be of course returile:ired, though a certain number- of Eledors had dee' „ by. their Petition / that he was not qual ifi e e t ,"- represent them. This was the simple state :° t o. case, and he thought it was one- worth attend 1 1 .5_ fe r he certs,ilinieva Whether the House should think it .rigt.ic " • tuts Pe tition to a Committee or mit: /.°° G . its for gran red ti at could be no objeeLi°" t t ion lying upon the: Table. . And then the q t 's .v ee.• was, when they would hear i 0 Certainly..plr po it fore the ComMittee decided upon the 00.,• le co tietis, and they could not hear it, after " if t he mittee had determined upon the merits ( 4 t of Eledion, without taking away the whole b • c o n c - o nve' the Grenville Aft. There were mans 1 c eive. niences that might result from 41 , refusa l t ; ij r it e rjr o. this Petition. Suppose Sir FRANC'S should die, or should refuse to defend Casey f~ A 1