The Sun. — London, England, 1802-06-10 00:00:00

he )tad the honour to belong. One instance then occurred to him, of a mistake in the Appendix to - 2tn Account, though the Account itself was, he should contend, substantially Correa ; the Qfficer by whom that return was made, was independent of the Treasury of Ireland, and therefore he wished the House always to bear in mind that the system of Officers was pot the same in Ireland as , it was in this Country. Mr. FOSTER said, the'Right Hon. Gentleman had adduced a strong reason ibr -his (Mr. FosTEß's) intended Motion. • • Mr. CORRY 'said, an Officer was at :the &or : with some Accounts, ,some of which he believed were what the Right 'Honourable Gentleman had' alluded to. Mr. 'FOSTER said, he would 'wait till the: Officer had presented those . Accounts. Mr. WICKHAM said - , he had returned some of the ACcounts to Ireland, in - consequence of their being erroneous. MA. • Crofton from the Treasury of Ireland was then called in, and presented an'account' of the Salary and Emoluments of the Lord High Chan cellor of Ireland, an Account of Treasury Bills, and an Account of the Charge of Yeomanry Corps, together with other Accounts, which were ordered - to lie on the Table, except that relative. to the Salary and Emoluments of -the Lord High Chan cellor of Ireland, which was ordered to be referred to the Committee appointed to' consider of aug menting the same. " Mr. FOSTER, then said, as he found the Ae c mnts that had just been presented, did not include all those which he ha before alluded 'to, he should move•what he before intended, -'r That the prOper Officers should he called upon co m:Ace immediate returns to the Orders of the House, - reSpetfling those Accounts which had not yet been presented." Mr. CORRY seconded the Motian ; but ob served, that he wished to be understood, as not concurring in any charge of neglect against the ficers. The Motion was agreed tn. Mr. FOSTER - then called - the attention of the House to an Order for an Account specifying the authority under which the sum of 314,000% had been raised and paid into the Irish Treasury,. how. it had been raised, and how - applied. To this on. der a return had been madeoreferring for the an, thority to the 25th Se Lion of the 41st Georgejth Upon referring to this, however, it' would be found; that no more than 2,000,0001. was authorised to be raised for the Service of Great Britain anti Ireland, the whole of which , had been applied to- the Service of Great Britain: this, therefore, could give . no authority for raising an additional 300,0001. for the service of Ireland. " With respeeitci the :manner in which it had been raised, the return 'referred to an aid for, the Service Of Ireland, which never ex isted, and as to the application of it,' not a syllable was said. He therefore inlayed, " that the proper Officer should be called upon to make a further re. turn to the Order of the loth of -May, 'relative to the above Account." . . Mr: CORRY said,. he was really concerned and ashamed of this puny warfare of Accounts relating to Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman knew as' well as any body that no further return could be made. The Right Hon. Gentleman knew, (if he knew any thing about the matter), that the money that was raised for covering that part of the Vote of Credit which was to be expended in -Ireland, was raised with the other Supplies of the year;' there were• many services to be provided for, and they all went together to form one Consolidated Fund. The Right 'Lion. Gentleman could nor pretend noranee of that -fart, and therefore. he must be , aware that no further return could be made to this Order. He would take no advantage of the:Right Hon. Gentleman 'not 'giving any' notice of these IVldtions,. though -they were usually given'in such cases ; he wished merely to state, that as far as he' • could judge upon this subjea, the return to this • Order could not beamended, and therefore he should oppoSe• the Right Hon. Gentleman's Motion . . :FOSTER said, this was by no means a puny war of Accounts, but a subje6t of greet portance. Parliament should take care- thatno Mi nister raised - moneY-contrary toy the-sConstiturion. The Bill respetaing the V6te of Credit hatt-applied it to certain Specific purposes, 'but the Officer who made the return .had referred to that Bill as the authority for raising a sum which could not be in: eluded in it.• The subje& was of irnportance'to this Country, as each" part of the United Empire must pay its proportion of the sum" thus raised. The House then divided, For the Motion Against it jori ty CLERGY. On re-entering the Gallery we found LIANI SCOTT on his legs speaking on the hu qa of the Clergy Residence Bill. He felt; he said, he had discharged a public duty in bringing forward the measure, but he did .not mean to press it further during the present Session : at an early period,. however, of the next Session, he should again bring it forward, when he trusted a measure would be adopted which in its final 'results would be equally beneficial to the Clergy and the Public, Mr. DICKENSON; in consequence of what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman, gave notice of his intention to move to-morrow, for a further Suspension of the MI of-Henry VIII. IRISH MILITIA. Mr. FOSTER having risen, The CHANCELLOR of the . EXCHEQUER' said, ‘he,begged the Right Hon. Gentleman's par don, b b ut he understood the Right Hon. Gentleman, had risen in pUrsuance of a notice he - had given of a :Motion relative to an order issued in Ireland 're... 3raing the Militia. Some information had been received on the subject, but not all that was neces sary ; he therefore hoped the Right Hon. Gentle man would consent to ristpone his 'Motion for the present. He expeEted that all the ~netessary infor mation would arrive in the course of the present Week. Mr. FOSTER said, he had no obje&ion to post_ cone his Motion to any day which should be named by the . Right Hon, Gentleman, arid 'he' should then make it, if he received no satisfaaory information upon the subjet. The CI ,SINCT LIOR cf rthe EXC RECUR R said, he had no doubt; ail the requisite information would, be received by Monday. Mr. Font E K then : naincti Mont ay for his Motion. NAVY. The House then resolved itself into a Committee - of Supply, to 'whichthe Army and'Ordna . ne mates, and the Accounts of the Unfunded Debt, ,anoi the charge of the Yeomtinry Corps in Ireland, were referred. Mr. En dr moved for a Vote of 70,000 Men for the Sea Service, for seven lunar months, commenc ing the i Bth Mune 1802, including 14,000 Marines. Mr. T E I? AV EY wished for iplormation as to the extent of the Permanent Peace Establishment. Thee CH ANC ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the. Committee must be aware that no opinion could be inferred from the present Vote, as to the PerManent Peace Establishment. So large a pro portion of the Navy Was 'at present 'employed on Foreign , 'Service,' that it was impossible t o b r i ng forward. any, Peace Establishment ; but, if he had it now in his power to propose a . Permanent Peace Establishment, he thought that 30,000 would be all that would be necessary for the Sea Service: He begged the Committee, however, to understand, that he 'did not 'pledge himself upon this subjea, but such was his opinion of the present:state of things, that .he thought 30,0p0 men would be enough, although ,he Would not pledge himself to aq specific number : he looked forward with con fidence to that limited - iv.unber in. the ensuing year. Mr, TIERNEY said he supposed that was to be considered as the lowest number? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER tie.: plied, the prOb'able nurriber. The Motion was then agreed to. The'Committee. then proceeded to vote, For Wages for the said 70,000 men for the same period, at 375. per man per month * for Vi6tuals for the said men tor the sarne 906,500 0 0 ..period, at,3Bs. perman per month. -For wearanci tear of the Ships in which the said men are .employed, at 31. per man per month - - 931,000 b 0 1,470,060 0 0 F . Srdrdoaiide for the,Sea Service, at Ss. per man per intintli . 122,500 o o ARMY. The SECIZET4RY at WAR then rose and said he should endeavoui to state the Army Services for the.femainder of the year, as shortly as possible, and the difference between the Proposed Establish 4 menr and the War Establishment, as voted from the zsth of December to the 24th of March the com pikriitive number of men . and expence would stand : Men Expellee • Guards, Garrisons, and Plantations. - £. • s d. War Establishment ...: 161,364 5,4 3 2 ,000 o o Proposed Establishment ' 95 , 793 , 3, 04,000 •41,i , 0 Dilrerence . General and,Staff Officers. War Establishment Proposed Establishment 65,57 i 1 2,328/000` 0 40,700 0 0 50,300 0 0 ' Difference - Militia and Fencible Infantry. War EStablishinent - 103425 2,941,800 o o The whole E xpence under this head would he saved • for the remainder of the year. - Offices - - iC117,350. 90,400 * 0 With respeCi to the War-Office, the expence was, he said, still very considerable,. but the number of persons employed was no mare than was absolutely necessary. There, was a great arrear of business in ' that Office, but he hoped the ti m e wou ld soon come when a reduction in the expence. of.that Office,might take place. . . _ _ War Establishment. Allowance to Inn-keepers _ ,C 57,000 Troposed Establishment 23z,00n DiffeienCe 3957000 He was, he: said, led to believe, that a great re- Andion of this - Expencc would take place in another year, when the Troops became regularly , statinneci and distributed in Barracks. For the : piesent it was proposed to .continue the rate of allowance the same as' is was in the .preceding. year, in considera. Lion of the Inn keepers having suffered considerably during the' last year from the high price of every article of subsistence. , . . War, Establishapent—,Hall k. 22 5 ,000 'Proposed Establishment - 403,000 Excess 178,000 The • number of Officers thrown upon Half-pay must, he oh / served, necessarily be increased, in con secluence of the number of Regiments reduced. 'War Esiablislinient—Volunteer Corps, taking the proportion.of the'last five months 1,1 54 ,0,,0. • Great part.of this Sum would now be saved, as it was inten,::.-d to retain no Corps who - received pay, and to reduce the allowance to others.. . War Establishment—Barracks - Proposed Establishment - 940,000 740,000 Llifferenc'e - 20°,000 The Sum proposed for the remainder of the year for this service was, he observed, considerable ;_ but the Committee would perceive the important ad_ vantages which resulted to the Army frorn this. EstablishMent. He shouldnow, he said, detail briefly the more minute particulars of die intended Reduetion. It was proposed to 'reduce 6 Regiments of DragoOns - 17 Additional Battalions ()fold Re giments 'of Foot, and 4 young Regiments to be disbanded - 20,862 Men £. 580,413 Several of these, however, he observed, could not be • expeded to be,disbanded.immediately. Until the Troops now on Foreign Service returned from abroad, it would be necessary to preserve!Jur Gar. risons here ; several of the Regiments proposed .to be. disbanded must therefore be kept on foot for Some time longer. It was also intended to reduce the Royal Garrison Battalion and.six West India Regiments. The Invalids it was intended to re duce altogether, it being thought better to keep up a regular Infantry, than a corps of Invalids, although that Body must certainly be considered as highly respectable and useful. Number- of Invalids - - 7806 Men .197,,305 Foot Guards, a Reduaion of - 5475 Men .156,335 5,093 Men . 262,334 He ,understood that the Island of Jamaica would contribute to the payment of the Troops stationed there for ito defence, which would be a considerable saving to this Country. He did not see any reason for -stating particularly what Regiments were to l4e stationed in Ireland, and what in Great Britain; it must be considered:aceording to oircumstancea as to what force should: be stationed: in any part of the United Empire. - The Cavalry, Which it was pro posed to have in service for the remainder of the year, were three Regiments of Horse Guards, seven Regiments of Dragoon Guards, and t wenty Reg iments --of-Dragockns. It was ,proposed that the establish, ment of each Regiment should be eight troops of '6o men each, makiiig a` total to each Regiment of - 480. The Foot Guards would to-main the same as at the last Peace. The Regiments. of Foot it was proposed_ to number from one to eightyLoine = the• whole number of Infantry kept- up, would be 48,051 The Regiment of Riflemen, it waS pro posed to keep up. The Royal Waggon 'Corps' it' was also proposed to keep up in a certain degree, as • it - was important to have people of that description in our service; in - readiness at the cOthafencemenfor a War---the number - proposed to be kept •up was; 259. The Staff Corps it•; was also proposed! should be kept up, as •it chiefly consisted of ar-j tificers, and from which much 'advantage might . be derived. With reSped - to General and Staff-: Officers, the charge- under this head was larger; than usual, but the. number employed was as few as possible. It was proposed to have' Only four • -Major Generals in Irelami - , one in each -Province,: which was as -small a . nuMber as could he employed in that Country. As to the Foreign Corps; it Was proptmed to retain only three Regiments,. with the exception of the Regiment of Meufon in India, which it was understood would . remain in. the pay of the East India Company. Those pro'poSed to be, retained were those which, by capitulation at the. Island of Ceylon, were tri be.employed in the set_ , vice of Great Britain for ten years ; the Regi-! !pett: of Rohan, which was at present actually in, Garrison at Alexandria, and the Oueenis German Regiment. With reSPea to the •Foreign Corps,' which it was prOposed to' disband; he' trusted the justice and humanity of, the Committee would induce ;them to make a liberal compensation to the Officers. The- sum of 32 i,oooi. Which Was proposed . 'to be voted, included not only the maintenance of the Corps retained, but also a Compensation for those disbanded. • It was proposed to keep up The . Royal Military College ; upon an economical scale the ex- pence would be 63691.. per annuni. This institu-, ton was of importatfe,' inasmuch as it t lcd to form .skilful Officers ; and if we had skiitul. Of- firers, the number of men employed Might be decreased, as a small.numher of men, commanded by Officers of skill, would do much more than a larger number under , the command of Officers in • ferior in Military Science. It was to be observed, at the same time, that a great part of the cipence of this Institution waa defrayed by contribution. It was proposed tokeep up also. the Royal 11/41itary Asylum. He concluded by moving his first Resolu tion, for providing 70,299 Land Forees, including Officers, for the service of Great Britain and Ire land, from the 25th . of June 1502, to the. 24th of. December fdllowing. Mr. B ANKES said, that after the opinion ex. pressed on the present business by Gentlemen who understood it so completely; he felt some'diffidence in stating his sentiments: However, he should fir think he fulfilled his duty unless he stated to the House what he thought should guide their defermi.: nation in the new situation in which the Countly is placed. With regard co the Ist Resolution,. relative to Guards and• Garrisons, the number of Troops for both Countries amounted to 70,000 ; those for Ire land.he apprehended might amount to 33,000 ; and those for Great Britain to 47,000. , The regular Army Establishment in Great Britain hakfornierly amounted to not above 18,000 men ; in 179 z they Were even. so low as 15,500. The Establishment for the Plantations had alio• increased from 1 e or 16,000 to zB,soo. It might be necessary, how ever, to increase our means of security in that guar_ ter, as the West Indies particularly were our vul nerable side ;, but while we did so, it, would be equally necessary to reduce our Establishments pro, portionably in that quarter in ,which we were not so vulnerable ; and to apply the superfluous. Forces ,where they were more requisite. Economy was the principle at present to be studied on 411, occa. sions. The principle was agreed upon by all ; the application alone was disputed. His Honourable Friends: might allow that economy Was necessary,. -but_thit it was better to encroach on that than in_ cur the hazard of endangering our security. But it was impossible to reconcile a proper economy with a prOVision fdr the continual prosper of- War.— Whatever our apprehensions might be, it was ne-, ce,'sary to make retrenchments, as our Funds ,were unable to bear the proposed c4penditute: Corsica, : and many other places, had been given up, and wise ly given up, because we had not a Force sufficient to cover all points, while we-secured the most im portant ; It would therefore be wise at present t 0,,, follow the sante - plan ,rather thane keep up-a Peace Establishment -rumods by its expence... The prP posed redudions were hot at all equal to what the Finances seqUired ; nor was the Establishmerit suf ficient, if.the views of the Enemy were really. hos tile. There was, however ; one object never to be lost sight of, which was or more consequence thin all others, and that by which the Country obtained a degree - of weight. superior to what its real Force` might seem to challenge—he meant its Credit. Ai far as this could be maintained consistent with ab-- solute security, it ought to be done at all events. It might indeed be said, that security ought to be the principal objea ; but he would, on the other hand, state the maxim, that " in great affairs.nothing is so bad as a middle course." If we wavered be- tween. security and credit, both Would be lost. For his own part, he said, he thought the Finance of the country on as good a footing as its warmest friends did ; but he still thought itrequired every possible exertion of economy. Without reducing our Esta blishment however, though there might be a sav ing in theory, there _could be none : in : praelice. Our ,n 7 tended Peace EstablishMent would .be found even x; exceed the Estimates on the Table. We were not. merely to take-the expence at the regular pay and other requisites : we were, to compare the numbers of our former Peace Establishment with the.numbets of the present, ,and then take into the account the diffesent ek - pences of maintaining them before the War and since its conclusion, and on these gtounds we tnizlit „ - •• oulJ forma fair estimate. F r om weft a view, i t vi bo r be found that our con di t i on was much wors e before the War. In x 791 there was Jell , a l ' erP 'i, ing the Interest o f t h e Debt, the sum of 6,700 ,0 0 k, for the - expendit ure o f t h e year . N o w, if we 10 ° ed into the P a pe rs on t h e T a bl e , w e should t o that the net produce of the prjeeding year ° Pk- January 25," was 28 millions ; the eXpeOCe S atter le j ing the interest and red u tli on o f .t he Tautw an t her to 2z,600,0001. ; s o that there was , ltit for the% it expenditure only 5 , 000 , 000 1. F rom . these faora c. .appeared.that we: were not at present i,n s° state as in 1:791, by at least 1,700,0001. At ta period : the expellee a the Army amounted' 00 1; 1,748,0001."; at pre s e n t i t w ill exce ed 3,4001 0 0 , so that we have a double expellee upon a fun d no t siderably le s S t h an i n - 17 9 . H e .said he di", ro mean to state these f ac t s i n . or d e r to al at the Nation ; -but only to .warn Gentlemen Wh , they. were ' about', to . prevent them frQm gifting that th e y h a d money - in hand wilieh . t o je really had not. N o E sta bli s h ment o f t h e :magni t nog proposed .could be supported under . an expenee,' F ter only beyond the calculations which 'had been 0 1 2 ',, but even - beyond wh a t t h e H ouse cou ld. have : i v idea of. , For this year, however, he did not T e e that the calCul a ti ons m i g h t b e - accu r ate , 25 1-of "iirere some extraordinary resources,' . suchas Pa i r b y the' Income T a x st ill unaccounted for ; an t u be means Of these, the expences.of the year : met. He hoped that by next. 'year our Ke ve " o r would be improved ; but he had no hope , tha t t h would be improVed a t a ll i n propo rti on t o suc 'intreased: expenditure. One other circumstli nce o , begged leaveto suggest, which required' to be io tended to ; which w as , th e v i ew an d spiri t which the pregent Vote - was' passed; The Erj ris i c ; lions of this National Council had more pub, lic ot than those of most . o t h er N at i ons..., Thi s to lti was attended with man y a d vantages , b u t it eoor alsooome disadvantages : it prevented such secr oo , as was requisite to p er f e a freedom of - The present Vote; however, would Speeu'p known over E uro p e ; an d t h oug h i t -could o°',. 0 1, , , pear to indicate any intention, on our part, t° br cr e the Peace, it would certainly seem as if w e P yce not 'secure of the intentions of other Powers• ' F ire _ought not to give such grounds for suspicion ; ee p ought not-to :ifford a pretext to others also to. ',OO up a TfOrmidable Establishment.;, _France, ,as, st tii i as she Inok - ed into her Fi nances , would fina; 1110re:occasion than we to reduce her Military t 3, blishment-; and the danger to be.apprehended fr y e r this Country wOuld`then be the only pretex t i d, , Rulers could employ for still maintaining a I° , l• T e ts able forc e . One of the m ost acute F renc h \r".„ 11. 0 . had observed that - the m a i nta i n i ng o f large P 50,71 blishments was a disease w hi c h h a d infectedP: lll l o , in the last century, and which, unleSs put a sr°POCl must gradhally undermine t h e i r resour ces, '1. 1 i5 end in their ruin. I n p utt i ng a stop t° -ta}: malady, this Island, he said, was partieularlY culated to set the example, by its insular situa ii° E tiO the patriotic spiri t o f i ts inhabitants, 2°- A '0 martial temper and skill i n m ili tary evo;L'i! a!1 which distinguished it in 'the present beyni lu o f former periods. We had a sufficient n umbe r if , well-trainedmen, who could be called togeti ii ; r of sufficient time to opp ose any su dd en i nvas i on °J, re f Enemies. H e c onc l u d e d b y d ep l or in g t h ose e o 'il, Vagant Establi s h ments which must end in our -, and which the Committee were about to ev il " - ,r e nailed by that Vote which he anticipated. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER that. Oci his n. Friend who had j u s t sat nown ,l)Y. l4 declaration he had made on the 'Speech of /1 4 11 : 2 ' a i , Hon. Friend who preceded hi m , h a d seemed f• oce clined to consider th e p resent propos i t i o n ' ic o r the Committee as a Measure• for the Pertil" ° b ' is Peace Establishment of this Country, altil"g b iod Right Hon. Friend, the SECRETARY at c ry endeavoured to imp ress upon t h e C omm i tte e a v i t is different idea, and h a d, f or t h at purpose , state`ioo, view of the difference between thi s PropOiiti 0 1 and the probable Permanent Peace Establishirl o g this Country. His Hon. Friend had co mment the large allowance of 40,000 men for the dei -e d of Great Britain.—Now, if the Committee ° t its refer to the Speech of his Right Hon. Frien' baf SECRETARY at WAR, they would perceive ;ice . this was not proposed to be voted for the se' 0 of Great Britain alone, for the present year, bit' $g Great Britain and Ireland, it being impossib' e ' c t o present, to describe the specific amount of F° l- `ce be- allotted to each, or to pr o p ose to vot e t he Y‘ o s in any other manner : the truth was, that thi, 5 ;,,,-,e not the probable For c e t o b e k e p t up as our ' ,o ‘ , / Establishment, but the num b er cou ld no t be of of brought to' that re d uce d state , f ur a gre at our Force, of otir Military Force as well as N a at was .now abroad, much of our. Army was, n° oL ,lcl sea ; so that, until their return h ome , We cioe not be -said to be in a ' con di t i on to -deceri-or, upon the -quantum of our . Peace Establislunco, That might prove to be' less than many tlemen might suppose,, and Jess than he was s he ling 'to state, for tilis was not, for the. reasl v er had already stated, .the season for him to d e . i sbe a his opinion upon that , Subja ; he therefore ' l o t , • it to be understood,: thathe did not assert, b j- t eer ing for the proposition now before the Comm' t , to that 40,000 man was a force. a d ua ily neces s ' i T'ogf constitute the real d e fe nceo fthi s C ountr y ; all -was conveyed by the present propositihn was -Voc e that between this and the period at which the o r , . would terminate, - there would b e no prOper c l: e r r o' . tunity in the opinion of.,His Majesty's ment, of reducing that number, consistently the. due r care of'the interests of the EmPiP : ' 10 3 , Right. Hon. Friend. the SECRETARY at V Ait. . said, - that under the present- c i r eutnitan ce c 'i f e r4 Smaller force than 25,000 Meri,wou,l4 he insiw:tbe for.lreland ; and„ .upun tliat . patt of the stib:r" understood: his Hon. Friend, who sp.oke ,• 13 V t be have oo objection ;' thought there 'could ° ave c , any ; he did, indeed, conceive that eircum s i co o' w6uld operate rapidly to enable 'us to reducev49l siderably, all our, present proposed establisi*of e tr but althongh they mithlit be rapid in their ti) be yet nobody could expeia their commencement. the - I f °f immediate. As to the number propose( nt 0 1 /' Plantations, which. was 25,006 men, he did serve, that. his .1-16 n. Friend objected .at r it was to be obser ve d • . t h at -i t was rit )t 19 Plantations merely, o r f or t h e coloilics, r