The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-05 00:00:00

v Wert, they w ere more lik e l y t o co me t o E ng l an d " la n to go to a new Settlement. The Hon. Gen *min had said, he would support the bill if it e ctuld.he proved that it would save 80,0001. to the 5 .° l l 3 any, but not if it wou ld on ly save ro , ooo l. ; ,e (Mr. IVIErcALF) could not see any difference in t a.e Principle, whether the stun to be saved was iio ,„oo 1 Jwz. or 19,0001. Mr. D. SCOTT said, that the ground upon which this sill was f oun d ed, was, that the Company had f ound .that the expence of the Settlement of Ben etoolen:very far exceed e d any ad van t a ge that co u ld Lie derived from, it. He was sure, when the House tam eto . consitier the justice of the case; they would think 'that it .Would be very hard to turn off me_ ritorious Servants of • the Company without any revision whatever. As to sending them to Cey r, that had been shewn to be impossible ; be- Ski es, if it were not, the Salaries in that Island were . s ° small, that the Company's Servants would not go the re. The highest salary there was only 30001. a Y e ar; but in the Company's• Service, a man, ac e°rding to the number of years he had been em_ pi led, had from three to eight thousand a year.-,- 1 t h a d been -o suggested, that Government had all the Patronage of Ceylon, and that the East India Com_ t a nY defray e d t h e expence o f t h e E sta b l i s h ment u t this was not correct; as the Island was solely in the hands of Government. • Mr. TIERNEY sa id,' h e was f ar from attribut lng to the East India ComPany, upon this occasion, '''y thing , as like a job had been - insinuated ; but he could'not omit this - opportunity of congratulat trig the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to him (Mr. W. DuNoAs) upon the sudden gleam of econo- Iny which h e h a d displayed, and could only lament, that during the seventeen years that the Rt. •Hon. Tent I e m a n had be en in of fi ce, he had not before dis played a similar disposition : for it • appeared from the statements which had• been made, that there would 'have been ample room for it. He could tor however,,..whi!hr avoid asking what were the causes endered this sudden display of patriotism ne cessary > i - ' ed for - i ' 0 'iong ago as 1785., plans had been adopt_ but h is _ ed ucing the expence of this Establishment ; the Instead of a reduCtion, the expence amounted in Y e 4: l- 96 to 6 glad t - -,'''' I W 0,000 . year, and he l a th e ex ; 0 -- hoW it happened that since that time outd. not con.,ratulaie c _,_, p rice had nearly doubled. He, therefore, bpori his present Gentleman the Right Han. the past ex past ant hi m :f or his p lans of economy, without census_ that co nndue-t : for he was of opinion of opinion' that n l e was most scandalous. He was coolen were hardl f t 1 thei • 9ught to, 'lame (2 °.mpany's Servants in Ben -ealt% • -t hi s Bill, for at least y ii, .. pension to. the ' the alternative of accepting a going a the of their present salaries, or to'econe-niCi; Madras . 'He was undoubtedly a friend , • e ase ..._ J 5 b ut he thought the best e conomy in such bneas i n as co take away all ,grounds of jealousy and ad, e ss from the CotnOany's Servants. Now, by ptin g t hi s measure, he was not sure that it would tot create pl ayed a great alarm among the persons em . .. pl'trandia; because they might be removed at ea sure. He was aware of the difficulty. 'of send dirE se persons. to Ceylon ; but he thought .that ~ eulty mig ht have been obviated by 'a properim uerst. . b f dnd ing 'bet ween : the-Company and His Majes. _vn m• . t i c : ,i itnisters ; and therefore he was the more pis pranuoti thinking that the Right Hon. Gentleman's co ,_ 1 economy came rather late, for.i.t . did not .le . - p osed ' o n f til all the Offices in . that Island were dis- i e e i l l ! r • 117. DU.VDAS said, .there could be no . ob ,--"o'n that he was aware of to allowing the Com ranY's Servants at Br.ncoolen to retire,. if they pre.. fe rred . ... n it, upon Pensions. With regard to the other : -a rts of die Hon. Gentleman's Speech, he begged to 3 4 Y °rie word in explanation, in perfeC 3 / 4 good tem 'her* The Hon. Gentleman had said, that he (Mr. --uNoAs) had held his present office for seventeen Yie4s, whereas, in point of faCt, he had only been • 1. 1,1'4 situation for four years ; therefore it was ra- Ine.r hard to make him responsible for that which L'aPpened befor e he came into office. . e .117 r. METCALF rose, merely to explain some .ning that fell fro m an H on . F r i en d of his opposite to him (Mr. Li. SCOTT), respeCting the Salaries of the Company's Servants in India. The House might be led •to suppose from what had fallen from his Hon. Friend, that after a certain number of years service in India, Salaries h e titled to the n ` lta, the Company's Servants were en lad . - m a e r c a e i r o t n a e i d n in fad they must havewhereas, years in India befor I ;been C t ley 3 but fire might be many Places • i were entitled to ; numbe h r o o k f i bein r e fortunate enough obtain) Mr. W. to theft~. Tears there without 0 d The fiiii DUNDAS explained to a similar effeEt. was then read. a second time, and was r ered to be committed on Monday. e Mr. A tteLEXANDEIt brou g h t up the Report of the ottimie of Supply respeCting theArmyEstimates. M r. ROMON said, he could not consent to Su en a large expenditure of Public Money, without tai ling for an' account of the way in which the mo . /le Y s'llready granted had been Qepended. He had "tertained great hopes that the present Admini stra • ration would have proved much - more ecouoinical Than their offi ce,abc.we predecessors, but they had now been in of their a twelvemomh, and lie had not seen any measures that tended, to . economy. The th a nier of Cavalry for Great Britain was no less a , 22 )°°0, which he contended was unnecessary, were • ve "re Masters of the Sea, and consequently ere not afraid of Invasion. - ;the SPEAKER suggested to the Hon. Gentle ,ban, t h at if he did not objeCi to t h e whole of the reso lutions , b e had better wait till the Resolutions were put separately, and then opp ose t. le Fite Re so l ut i ons were then read : upon hem the Reso e.attoo being put upon the one respeEting B arrac k s , ty Mr. ring proc ee d e d to mark out various 'treads of Expenditure which he said were highly I rTP r oper, such as the Barracks, the Expences of ` - nru and Hay for the Horses of the Cavalry, the Co als and Candles for the Men ? the expellee of Which he contended to be enormous. The Sum he f or . B eer to the Troops at the Isle of Wight, ne said. was als o b ey maintain e d and his comprehension. —He mo nt h Mait that thi s mode o f vot i ng Expenditure by s Was. dangerous ; the sums coming thus by driblet, did not strike the imagination in the same manne r as they would do if the whole service of the year came befoie ftte . Public at once, and that the more particularly, as money was raised by Ex chequer Bills, to be hereafter provided for, instead of bringing-out at once the Budget - of Taxes for the year. He alledged that those things were most alarming,' and the Country was 'beginning- to feel the effects of them. The Government was at this moment insolvent—Public Offices had refused pay. ment of their own accepted [Here he was called to Order.] • The SPEAKER said, he would deliver his o.pi nien on the subjed, which . the HouSe 'Would port and confirm, if right ; if wrong, :of, course it, l * - would be discountenanced.—His opinion. ; !,vas, if a Member of that House cast any reprOach on t)Vd Existing. Government of the Country, wider 'the general charge ofsinsolvency, or otherwise to excite disesteem towards it, he was disorderly.—That was his judgment, and whether it was coifed or erroneous the House would judge. Mr. ALEXANDER said, he rose to speak to Order, and in doing so,- he hoped the Hon. Mem ber who 'had just spoken, from the feelings of a Pri vate Gentleman, as well as from a sense of Public Duty, as a Member of 'the House of Commons, would upon refledion, Tetrad so injurious an asser tion as that he had just made. Mr. ROBSON,said, he was ready to go into evidence in his place to-morrow on this assertion. He thought it was a thing which had better not be investigated—it was a n expression which in the warmth of speech,it was a thing better not inquired into ; but surely he had a right to make use of a fad in support of his argumwlt, . The CHANCELL O R of the'EXCHEQUER said, if it was a thing which it were better not to in. quire into, it tfas a thing which had ,better not have been said. The Hon. Gentleman had said it ; be was .nd to prove..it, or_ to retraa it. ss~ heS CRETAR.Y ,at WAR, said, he really did Milk that tfie Hon. Gentleman was not treating the House with that sort of regard and resped which was due to it, and which the House would, natural., .ly expeCt from a Gentleman who had a seat in that . House. The CH Ah CELLOR of the . EXCHEQUER said, he thotight the House ought to expert . of, the Gentleman to. state the precise fad to which he 'had :alluded; to name a day on, which he Would bring it forward, and.prove it : if he did not, the next step would be for the . House to proceed, to censure . him for the use of such expression ; for no man in that ,House, or any where, ought to feel himself pre pared to Make* a heavy charge against Government any more than individuals, and alledge a fad for the basis of such a charge, without being prepared alsq to bring proof of such fa& Mr. ROBSON said, that what he had uttered, was in . the warmth of argument. In adverting to the expenees of Government, he illustrated that by stating, that one of the Public Offices had not paid their acceptances. Now, if any Gentleman would be so good as to move that. a day lie appointed for him -to produce proof of the truth of his assertion, he would do it ; but he would again repeat, that in his opinion the less was said the better, upon this declaration of his. The SECRETARY di it'Ag. said,sad slat as far a; this declaration .related to himself (Mr. Ronsox), he believed the less was saidiabout it the better, but that would•rtht now do for • the House. He should declare what he - meant ; he should explain what it was he meant by the fad of which he had spoken. Mr. ROBSON said,.- that he never asserted in that House what he 'did not conceive to be true. It Ava ' s true that a Banker, a Member of that House, did take an Acceptance to a Public Office-the sum was of a small amount.' The answer at that Public Office was, " That they had not money to pay it." • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. — «I am sure the House must feel it 'is important for the Hon. Gentleman to proceed and state the whole of what he knows on the. subjea he alludes'to.—lt is due to the House—it is due to Government—Ahe Credit of the Country requires that this matter shoUld be fully explained.—l understand the H0q,,,, Gentleman to alledge,.that Government.AcceptanFeA have been refused payment at a Public Office—[tautGovernment, Acceptances have been refused payment at a Public Office, is the expression]—l call on hini to state the particulars, and the circumstances—to name the Office at which the Acceptance was ten dered, and where payment was refused.'.' Dollar LAWRENCE thought it important that Charges of this kind should be fully explained, re.; traded if false, proved-if true—but with regard to the proceeding of the House against the Hon. Mem ber, in case he should eventually be found to have uttered that which was unf6unded, as the words of the Hon. Member were not taken down at the time, and as .what he had said came before the House incidentally, he dOubted whether there could, consistently with order, be any proceeding in the. House upon the matter, nor perhapi was there any necessity. for it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.— " The Hon. Gentleman has created the necessity. -He does not state it now as an inadvertency of speech--an assertion hastily made, but which upon repeated application to him, he has adopted, it is spoken advisedly—he said he could prove it—l am sure we should be making a miserable use of the Forms of the House, if we decided that they pre ' elude us from calling on him to produce his proof as he has declared he can." Mr. ROBSON said, it was matter of form which prevented him from saying more than he had done upon this subjea. What he had said 'was in .the warmth of debate ; if the House was offended'with that warmth, he was sorry for it, but he co - ul4 prove what liehad said. Having asserted the fact, he would support it. He maintained then, he main tained still, that an Acceptance of a Public Office was , presented for payment, and refused—Pere there (was a loud call of ,f‘ Name ! Name !"] Mr. Roasov said, the " Sick and Hurt Office." Mr. VANSITTA RT defied the Hon. Gentle man to name the person who brought the Accept ance. A name was then stated, as we understood, bat we could not hear it. . . Mr. DENT said; thde as tbe non. denttorilati had, after repeated notice, been pleased to adhere to his assertion, the more regular way would be to have the words taken down, for the pUrpose of af-- fordink to the House an opportunity of considering what proceeding it might adopt upon this business, which, in his opinion was a very serious one, from the turn it had taken. The CHANCELLOR ofthe EXCHEQUER said, that the interposition of the Speeches of other Members, between the time of uttering the words, and this proposition for .recording them, had ren dered that now irregular, : , if not imprafticable ; but the sentence might be repyated, and the Hon. Gen tleman might adopt it, hepleased. " I under stand," said Mr. ADDINGTQN, " the Hon. Gen tleman to say and to abide by these words, " That GovernMent .Acceptances 'haVe been refused pay ment; that is to say, that a Government Accept ance, in the hands of a Banker, a Member of this House, was carried' to the Sick and Hurt Office, and that there payment was refused." That is the as sertion eltthe Hon. Member.' I wish to know now, whether he adopts that sentence, or 'wishes to .qua.: lify it: ? • Mr. ROBSON said, it was impossible for him, in tile warmth oldebate, to be sufficiently guarded, but that was •the substance of what he meant. The' C H ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that this Matter. was grave and serious. 46 It cer tainly,".said he, " shall be inquired into without' ' delay, and the result, 6c it it may, shail be made known't.o the House. I understand the Hon. Memkr to alledge.," That an Acceptance, the hands of a Banker, a Member of this Rouse, was carried to the Sick and Hurt Office, and that there, payment was refused..." • Mr. ROBSON said, that was the substance .of what he meant. The CI.TANC:ELLOR of the EXCHEQUEER- ,, - " Does the Hon. Member propose to corre& that sentence. I wish once more to know, whether I have accurately quoted the Hon. Gentleman's state ment of the fad Mr. RQBSON said " The substance is certainly so, .1 hope there is now an end of the . Conver'sation though not of the_ 10%447.' 1 - The SPEAKER said, : that perhaps the better way would be to proceed, now to the Business before the House. . The Question for agreeing to the Resolution for defraying the Expence of Barracks, &c. being put, The SECRETARY at WAR rose, and said, he should not • follow the Hon. Gentleman who.. had spoken against this Resolution, through all he had said upon this subjed, a great part of which was not new to the House, it having been frequently before the House, and disposed of in a manner satis faaory to the House—Some of the allusions of the Hon. Member, however, called for a short answer ; on the subject of Coals and Candles, the 'Hon. Membe.r had argued as if Coals and Candles were pettedly unnecessary to Soldiers in the Summer months : by this 'sort of ' reasoning they must. cook - their vi'luals br the heat of the Sun.lie had forgotten .also that Fuel 'was necessary to their washing of, their linen—The Honourable Gen tleman Szcined co lias-c relied entirely on the ac. curacy of his own knowledge, the clearness of his own understanding, and the strength of his own mind, and that 'accounted -for the numerous mistakes that occurred in the course of his observations. Had he inquired of any , body •qualified ,to form, a judgment on the subject, he would have received information that would have spared him the trouble, and saved the House much of the time which had been bestowed' upon this subjeCt. Here the SECRETARY' at WAR explained the nature of the Barracks, to which the Honourable Gentleman had alluded, and the items of which the expellee was' composed ; beds, &c. and assigned reasons for their amount ; as to, the small been in the . Isle of Wight, it was an at title that that was absolutely- necessary for the DUtch troops that were there;' being consumed,. it ought , to be paid.for. He 04 ,, erved, as, to accounts of ex pences at the War. (Dice, it was observable that certain ,fees were ck4e. upon. tile transacting of. certain business, bui that: . the business was done by officers, who Lad certain stipends, and by so, much as these fees eeeceeded the salaries, the balanCe was in favour of the Public, for after pay ing these Gentlemen their stipends, the surplus was applied in-aid of the publicburthen, and was so far an abatement of taxes. On the 'subject . of Barracks in Ireland; ha was ready to 'admit, that further inquiry must be made, before the Accounts could be in a state that could be said to be pettedly. satistadory. As 40' the Barracks in England, he would take upon himself to, say, that he , believed the 'whole of the syStem of theme' was concluded with as much croriorny as the nature of the subject would admit ;, but he had` as much to regret as the Hon. Gentleman had, that all the Accounts upon this, as well as other Military matters, were not broUght to: a conclusion.; but, after a war of nine years, with such a vast mass of complicated matter, as must necessarily have been brought forward in the course of it, after such immense service, and. vast expences in ail diredions, it was not wonderful . if talents, equal to those of the Hon. Gentleman, bad ndt been able to bring this matter at once to a conclusion. , He then took a Yiew,of the labours of Gentlemen concerned in audithsg Public AcCounts,' and paid an.handsome tribute to their abilities, and zeal and diligence in the Public Service ; and ob served, that the Hon. Gentleman seemed to have bat a faint idea of the nature of the machine they had 'to manage. General G ASCOY NE assigned reasons for the difference between the chaNes of Barrack's, 'Coals, &c. in Ireland and thOSe of this- Country, w'hich arose from 'the late military situation of thar,ranch of the Empire. The Question was then put •and carried, and all .the other 'Resolutions were agreed to. Leave was given to bring in the Mutiny Bill on the Motion Of the SECRETARY at WAR. .The CHANCELLOR o . j . the'EXCHEQUE R then called the attention of the House to the subject of the former conversation on the non-payment of the .Bill at the Sick and Hurt, Office,. He said, cF I have Hots as the ildllse dinsf tie A ik;,Ali.4; 61 an 0Pii6047 , nity of inquiring, with minuteness; intd the th4qge brought forward the Hon. i3ritlettan (Mi:Rott: but I have rEZeived information with tespea to the particular instance which lie referred and which, I think it material to state before the House separates: The House will reColiettohat the Ho , a , Genfittnari; in deteribing the degraded state of the Government, as he calleditoaid that Government ceptances had been refused payment, arid that undek circumstances so general as to mark the degraded state of Government; and a proof indisputable, of its itisol vency. He stated a fact, as he called it ; to prove, cisively, the truth of his general assertion, that Go. vernment was insolVent, I have had information of the fa& he alluded to, and by which I find that the amount of the Bill accepted by Government, and the non-payment of Which was, according to the Hon. Gentleman's conclusion, to denote the 'vericy of Government, is £9l. 7s. That a Bill of 191, Is. was not paid at the Sick and Hurt Office is the amount of the Charge of the Hon. Gentletrian ; and which he gives as a proof of the Insolvency of . Government: Whether or riot the Bill was paid remains to be _proved, • and shall be inquired into but my information conies from the' same source as the Hon. Member derives his Accusation. At all events the instance of the Hon. Member of the Insol vency 'of Government is a Bill of 191. 75.!" Mr. ROBSqN said that it was so mach t;le. worse : the Bill, he said, was in the hands of a poor rnan who wanted the money: The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.-- " An instance, perhaps, of barbarity, hut, not of Insolvency. I hope it will turn colt to be neither ; but at ail events it is ridiculous to call it an in stance of Insolvency. A charge of barbarity would indeed be a great *barge if it was made, but it was brought forward as a charge of Insolvency, f or which, and for which atom', the Hon.- IVlcmbeT pre sumed to state it." Mr. ROBSON.—" malc every apology that was possible." [Here tbeee were inz(rezar . s.] When the SrEAKER observed there was'iio ques_ don before the House,. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report of the Million Loan Bill, read, agreed to, and Bill order. ed to be brought in pursuant to it. ' . Mr,‘ ALEXANDER. brought up the Report of the.... Greenland Fishery Bill, -read, agreed to, Bill or dered to be ingrossed ; and to be read a third tiing to-morrow, if then ingrossed. The Cinnamon Duty Regulation Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to.morrow. Ordered, that the American Treaty Bill be read a second rime to-morrow. The Bill for amending the Lord's MI, common- • ly called, the Insolvent Debtors' Bill, was commit ted to a Committee of the whole House, some Clauses received, under an understanding that the Bill into be discusscxl again upon its principlc, and' perhaps, be re.committed, &c. Report received inimediately.—Ordeted to. be printed, &c.—Fur_ titer consideration postponed to 3d May, on` the Motion of Mr. WILLIAMS WYNNE. At t wepty minutes past seven the House at!. jnurned. THE SUN. SOLEM QUIS n:crier. :ALS= At/Di-AT! .L NDO N, RCII g, 18oz. THE Conversation, rather than Debate, which took place in the House of Commons on Wednesday, was by no means of an uninteresting nature. No inference, however, could be drawn from it with respea to the issue'of the pending Negotiation, as Ministers, in the present delicate situation of the Country, thought it right, and most properly, to speak with caution and reserve, It would indeed have been highly unbecoming in them to have said, more. We shall not.presume to enter into a minute dis. cession .of the diffdrent topics that were urged on • either side of the Hoose. Differing as we do, and most essentially, from Mr. WINDHAM, we cannot but admire the consistency of hiS public conduti,• and even applaud that publie. spirit, which often,: hOwever, betrays him into extravagancies unbeeorn, ing a wise man and a sound Statesman, and diposes hilt') to overlOok circumstances, by which, as its Polar Star, the condua of a true politician should ever be guided. fn the reply of Lord CAsTi, E R EACH , we ••4 trace as much of that great and spiendid . quality, to which, perhaps, uniformly - manifested as it has been, throughout the whole of this • arduous struggle, from the King to the Peasant ? we - perhaps of our existence as a free country; but happily tempered with the caution,*- prudence, and discretion, which the present singular crisis of the country so pecu_ liarly demands. This is the combination of qua lities, which we thought we early discovered in his Majesty's present Ministers, which commanded, and still commands our confidence, and for which,. if misplaced, we shall always be ready to consider ourselves as responsible to the Public. We have no better me tins offorming any opinion of the probable issue of the present Negotiation than the Noble Lord, of whose sentiments, on the present interesting occasion, we have presumed to express our arprobation. For the delays which have occurred in the progress of it, since the Signature of the Preliminaries, it surely cannot be difficult to account. There seen, at least, no grounds for doubting a favour4ble result, To the probable ht•.