The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-30 00:00:00

• !ill, why did not the House tr. 1786 take notice his that circumstance ? The' gentritl'•answer to was, that even. , the . most vigilant Members were not v i g i lant enough. wou l d bk however,' on the other hand, if it Wai''then. st ated to the House by His Majesty's Ministers, that' dehad put suc h a construdion upon the Bill, and sir ing to know if they were right ? No such thing, But to what consequence wounlSiteh . a dottrine lead, if because a practice was 'fi•tit • objected io 'at the de m ent, that the re f ore Hi s M a j esty ' s Mi n is ters re to acquire a right to argue, that it was fair 1.„. 4 d, proper, b ecause i t had not been. o bj ete d .to .? : 71 th respect to the . Bill, no man cotild - dnirbt' that Was'the intention oldie framer of It that 4-ist should not in - future be in- debt ; whether in- the 'ilk/lent of exultation and triumph, th the imagination of e frame r of that Bill ran before it's previsions, he Would not sav • but' it waS Certain - thatWaiiiis s; e " t i° ll . An application to. Parliament was .ro be V• der thi s Bill no longer possible ; applications were , t'Avever made in 1784. and 17 86. Since 1786, Right Hon: Ge n tl e m an h a d the - Debt of . m• ie Civil List at about a Million of Money, thus the uebt in the last sixteen w the years as equivalent: to that . first seventeen . years of His , Majesty's reign. • questi on , however, was, what was 'now to be dnt he was ore of Those Who .adhered to. the . i; e t o f a Civil List for life; he • knew he shisuld sli npot t°4l , that a Civil List was essential to the ° • ,°f Monarchy ; if he inquired, why, 'he I\a °e told' that it was essential that His ocae.st,y should b e ena bl e d to d e f ray t h e E xpenees P ar iilsriousehold; Without being dependant upon ci ; a n men t• If -it was so, the Monarchy: Must be Ae i ii let, as a ppli cat i on s' had been made to Parliti tl'th-:s '',°r money to discharge these' Expences four as In one re i gn , and therefore, His Majesty was ' m uch dependant up ion Parliament in this respeCt, Nsvlifhlie epee tespeCt to theded upon them for the whole -Revenue. nature of the Civil List, no e " could suppose fo r - a . moment, t h at one year C l o id he preeisely the same aS another 'with respeCt 6, ex ,Pence ; but the gr e a t. stress -that had been laid. -tile difference of expence, between a period of peace with out and a ner i o d of. War, was, in his opinion, 4th ou , foundation. No Parliament had ever grant.. t e i 4e ivil List, on the supposition, that the whole th. & ll would b e a reign of Peacel.-anda fad was, fa was, C' r . in th ree i nstances out o f fi ve; -wi nce t h e civil s i o ` i v as - granted ; i t had been granted during a hOw e - , ° f War. With n respeCt. to the question,. List, . I ° l War or Peace, as it related to the CiVil dou r n th ,"gh was important to maintain the splen sayin,;:.,tbe Crown, yet he had no hesitation in °l3 "41t •if any XeduCtion - 7 . of,.That , spiendoUr it g e : t° take pl a ce, there was no time in which pe r i oc i l d, be done more gracefully- .than _ daring so ra , °I sacriWar, whe n all we r e called upon to make e at fires to th e Public.' •Ptitting..this how.. iti: out of t h e quest i on, let it be recollected what It ti c 4 le at th e commencement of thepiesent reign ; k lf • w as then determined what should be, the amount lia, a the civil List:: those who determined this did •it without consideration, crithout epe i:l,llef= and foresight. COuld any suppose t h a t t h ose i t ," l ) Voted - the Civil List in 17 27 , an d 1760,' were 'p r o lint or -so stupid, as not calcUlate upon th e .hable decrease of the -value of money, and the ab • • le increase in the prices of the different Ai% ", 3 of Expenditure ? :But an AZI of Parliathent v ing onc e pas S e d , limiting the Sim appropriated Minister` Civil List, lie contended that His Ivlaje s ty' s : ni sters were bound to confine the expences of d C ivil List wi t hi n. t h e amou n t vote d : if they th e ; "t, they took the Legislative Power into va te4 6 wn hands, and said to 'Pattiartient, you have You —b ° , oool. but we have spent 900,0001. -and caust Make it 'up. Thus acting in direCt Wi ej lv e `uchee to t h e A a. of the Legislature.— Mt‘ make a debt at all, if they could not Th ey sil"e Expences square with the Income ? (lit u '"W• ;tbol . lt Offices, and reform the .Expen... re , is to p a " if they could not do thiS, they should come r.l armo , cre ase, r and,. stating the .necessity of an in tton t h e e Y,_ should take the judgment of Parliament °be I stip ieo. They should state, that they had aei of the Legislature in making the Ex.. this square w i t h the Income ; b ut i n or d er to tet te ' „, 7 they had b een f orce d to ma k e re f orms an d .And d7 llll , er ns, which were i n j u ri ous to the splendor t h 'g n ltY of the CroWn, or to the 'Public Service. P. Fl; e Y r did th' l , one could attempt to say, that La S 3 no 'bet t - ,"` w °a l (l - display any want of justice or itatiu• But' they ' now came to Parliament, . be en „ . 6 .' In other wor d s, that 9 a chcoo l , a - yea r h a d •so b t ven to them, t that they had chosen to spend t . 11 4 ° C 1 ' a Year inore, - and 'a debt 'of 'near a million 'dah ll thus inc urre d . Th e greater part o f t hi s aaa L 'd, it \vas- stated, accrued during the War, cathe consequence of that - War ; but af-that was w ard w hy was not the subject In'Ought ttlies during the course of a nine year's War,. th e ; T it was thought" it would-• tend) to Make taid ,_ a t unpopular.? • Thus', not' : "' word "_Was Of rein it during the War, .antl - now at a period gre at a ce they wer e t o ld t h at the Debt was in a "ear measure causettby a nine 'Years War. In the yes 78 2, co ns ide ra b le reforms were made . with Deft tO the Civil List, and thus by means'of . lVlr. thr o e's Lill die Civil Li st was actually increased, tau enc ga the savings which w ere ma d e i n conse bro., cof these reforms.. Thai these' reforins -- Would t ru cOtis idtir;ible'savin4 s , must be more or less tlle e .c , • but at the same 'time' it was less true with re. 1 , 4e.. k-a . to the Civil List than any other Establish_ as the Salaries of the First. Lord of the 'fru -I;Ye the Secretaries' of 'State, and other . Officers, tecto ntearly' the same as in the time Ol,Charles• the , nu. fliere only one article; with Kespeet q t4l ( tad . esmenn, which if the.Right . Hon. Ilit the a , n' S Motion had been confined. to . ' 'than, - he kill':._tiot_ have reluaantly. opposed it, though he - should felt it his duty to oppos , :i it under-Mr. Burke's. law T he Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that no Ibtst_co.uld be found with the expenditure : he , 11,,Tthat theliouse should investigate every litt(f ho ped the Que s tiori Would how be decided,Pr else . t 44,1• on that day ten or fifteen years, another Mini.. I,t come down to -the-House with a similar b.(410r the discharge he h n ofthe • Lis( large • lions it or else it ./v 4 por • - p etl the-'House would not attend to such as a mockery of their ta4o the as the,Nliniters` were - to be in•that' judges of expenditure and not the Parlia.. 1 [trent; they were to control the as of the lature, and set the Parliament. at defiance, Par. liarnent had a right to expea that Mioisier , ;- would suit the expenditure 'of the Civil List to the income, and that the exponces should not amount to more than 000,000 t a year -- ; at 'least that they would not continue to add expence Upon ex_ pence to the Civil List ;' if such permanent expendi turemust be increased, Jet them come to Parliament and state it. Upon looking into 'the Accounts, he found, under the heads of occasional' payMents; sums of•money charged for. Ethbaisies to Russia, Ber lin, and to Copenhagen, where, not 'content with employing the. regular Ambassadors in those Coon tries, extraordinary AmbaSSadori were sent thither, and the expences of those double Embassies we're how charged as a part or the-debt of the Civil List, whilst the necessity of the occasional Embassies did not very evidently appear. Another •Subjed was the Office of Third Secretary of .State. Our Colonies in Americ; were at the cominencement of the present Reign included in the puthern Depart inent; over whichethe late Earl of Chatham pre sided, the seven Years war, which was concluded at least as ably as the late war. Afterwards-it was thought necessary to appoint a Secretary if State for ;the-Colonies; and several Noblemen and Gentlemen filled"that Office successively. In the year 1782 :this Office was abolished, - being thought unnecessary, and so remained till the year' 17'oe when 'it' was again revived. in the War Departinent, by the Right Bon.,Gentleman opposite to him (Mr. PITT). — This Office was rendered the more unnecessary, as . the affairs of India were taken from the' Secretaries of State, and placed under the management of the Board of COntroul. Thus were the expences of the Civil List increased. This expenditure the House was now 'tailed - upon to-pay : he supposed -.they would pay it, .but Ministers aaed in this case like a man borrowing money whO'shOUld incur the ex pence, and leave his friend to ay it, without mak ing to him any previous communication: so in this ease His M:ljesty's Ministers- incurred the' expellee, and then relied -upon Parliament- to discharge it ; they created. : on Office, and then called upon Par liament to pay for it, and this Jong after the erec tion of the Office. The' Civil List had, at the same rime, been continuallyefavonred ; when the two S ecretaries of State (Lord GRENV ILLS and Mr - . DUN - - ohs), refused to receive the two SalarieS 'annexed to the Offices of each, those appertaining to them as Secretaries 'of State being paid out of the Cisil List, Anil -the Salaries of their-other Offices out of a Public Fund, 'the bur then was thrown upon' the Public, and not on the Civil List, which was relieved from the payment of the Salaries.' The Civil Listniight, per haps, he burtherred . with -payments which. did not properly belong' to it, .but he still objet ed to !misters making-the Expenditure exceed the Income, and then coming to Parliament to make it, good. It might appear harsh to oppose the present Motion, but he felt himself called upon by public duty. to oppose it, and he was of opinion that an Address should be presented to His Majesty, praying dint he would be graci6iily pleased tai Make such reforms a`§'would enable him to discharge' the 'debts which had been incurred.by. thecirit' List, : in- consequence of the condua of Ministers, and to make the expenditure adeqUate to' the income. He could not help saying a few words relative to the Prirsec -of Waled.-- 'Would any one contend, that his Expenditure was not equally liable to increase with the Civil List ? His Expenditure was limited to 60,0001. a year, which -His . Royal Highness had been. unwisely induced' to make a declaration that it was sufficient. If this declaration was held to bind His' Royal Highness, how much stronger was a declaration froM the Throne,- that .00;0001: a year was sufficient ?---- When; in the year - 1,79, a part of the sum - of zo,oool. granted to the Prince was appropriated to the payment of his debts, why should - idifferent rule be applied to thiS case, and that of 'the Civil List, and why should-not a portion of the revenues of the Civil List be appropriated to the payment of its debts ?. If the House, however, did not feel itself strong enough to do this, let them pay the trade 'inem's bills', but not the whole debt ; the patronage and influence of the Crown were great, and it could well spare a few Officers of the Household. There was one article in theaccount which' was peculiarly 'grating to his' ears; Which was Law Experia& e for prOseCuting many individuals •whoM the Verdid of, a Jury had acquitted, and which, he contended, was a complete proof of their innocence. Many Of these indiVichials' had been ruined', arid their families re duced to beggary, and another - penny was now to be squeezed' from them to pay the expences of -their proSecutions. With resped to the question itself; he felt 'as much for the'spiendour and' glory Of the .Monarchy Man' in that HOuse, - butz - he had a paramount duty to execute; and to- the didates of that paramount duty he must attend. The' CHANCELLOR of the' EXCHEQUER, in exptiination, 'said, that he did not intend to- under value theburderrupOn the Civil -List of George the Second. With respede to the hereditary revenue s of the King, the Hon. Gentleman would' he said find 'that 'Certain dutiei were settled Upon His 'Ma_ jesty'by an Ad of Parliament on his "IteCeSSlon to the Throoe. The, Hon,_Gentleman would also find, that great doubts Were entertained of the suffi ciency of the sum of 800,0001.. granted' to His present 'Majesty -; 'that d"strotig representation was made to the Duke of Newcastle upon the subjed, and that it was foretold that difficulties would arise in consequence of the insufliCieney of - the Stun. DebtS Of tfie Civil List had been brought .before the -House after:Mr.. Burke!S Bill, who must -have been .fully convinced that his Bill would not prevent those debts from accruing. IMr. - PITT said; . ' That' after the very able and dis ittaaer ire which his Right Hon.' 'Friend had introduced this - subjed - to the Committee, it would only be necessary for him to trespass for a very shOri - tinie'apon their attention. - not his in tention to - pursue the Hon. Gentle Man who had just sat down,, through the - variety of subjeds which he had thought proper to introduce into his Speech, still less was it his intention to'dwell upon that part - of the' sulijed which - 'tire' 'llbn; Gentleman had reserved for tire conclusion, viz, the'Law ChargeS. ,Upon this . subject the . Hon, Gentleman had made a most s lernn appeal to the House, and ih order to give it greater is eig , had res rved that burst -and -tirade copiliOiedi he suaostd,' in his ' post-tltise,' to the conclusion of his Speech * Whe ther the Hon. Gent!eman's objeawas to excite the compassion oft he e'ormni tree for tiloSe men.ssitto'm the security of the State hattrendered it necessary to prosecute, or whether it was the Hon, Gentleman's inteniion . to discuss the • question; Wlither those persons who had been confined, and were now Jibe_ rated, ought to pay any portion• of the sum' which it was now proposed to vote, he could not deers...-. mine -[Here Mr. Stir RInAN cameiota the House]. If the - latter was the Hon. Gentleman's intention, Ise had just received a most seasonable reinforce ment : he supposed'from the Hon: Gentleman's ar riving at that moment, that he knew at what pe rind of his Hon. Friend's Speech that subjed was to be introduced, though he could not but wonder that the Hon.. Gentleman had deprived himself of the pleasure he must have derived from hearing the whole of that Speech. He would nor, however, argue whether there had • been anyseditious,• any treasonable practices in this Country ; he would not take up the time of the Committee now by inquir ling whether, if it had not been for the precautions Which Government had taken, those pradices might not have proceeded to the most dangerous extremities; 'he would not allude to the Rebellion in Ireland, nor to the Societies of United Irishmen and United Englishmen, because all these subjeds had undergone previous discussion ; upon all these subjects the so lemn judgment of Parliament had been passed.— The Hun. Gentleman had endeavoured to persuade .the Committee to rejea. - this - Motion, by a refer ence to transadions upon which, when they were be fore the House, the sense of a large 'majority had ' been decidedly. hostile to the opimoh of that Hon. Gentleman, whose arguments went to prove, that when there were the strongest symptoms of treason in. the Country, that it was oppressive for. Gover nment to attempt to ward-off Treasons rather than to meet Rebellion in the field; and that the deteaion of a traitorous Conspiracy was less the duty of the EXecu tive•Power, and of His Majesty, who had the ad. ditional obligation of' an Oath upon this subject, than of any other' persons in this Country. These arguments, it• could not be expeaed 'that he should occupy the time' of 'the House by discussing, nor should he now stop to investigate. whether the mea. sures adopted by Government were, or were not such as the occasion required. Those who felt • as the House had always felt during the whole of the eventful period which we had passed, would agree with him in thinking, that if there was reason to believe that the spirit of Treason both in this Country an.] in Ireland had gone to a dangerous length, and that legal . proceedings were therefore necessary for the security • of the State, the expencea attending which wele greater than in ordinary times, that it Would not. be consistent with justice to throw the whole burthen of that cipelice upon the Crown. There. was, how-ever, • something whimsical in the compassion which the Hon.• Ge ntleman manifested for those persons •; for ,he did nor propose a remedy for these whom he conceived to have been injured ; bile in speaking upon this sub let% the • Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that all the persons who had been accused had been acquit ted.: there were' several persons conviaed, and certainly there was one conviaion which ought not to have escaped the recolleaion of the Hon. .Gentlernan. and those who sat near him. But what was the great hardship of which the Hon. Gentle man had' so pathetically complained ? It was that this sum of 900,0001. which' would be - defrayed by so many millions of His Majesty's Subjeds, would fall particularly .heavy upon certain United Irishmen, and 'persons of a similar description.— Now', in all the discussions which had- taken place upon this •subjeCt, it could not be forgotten that one of the strongest arguments urged to spew the • impossibility of any treasonable plots existing, and an argument which had been repeatedly urged with .great humour by an Honourable Gentle 'man opposite to him (Mr. SHERIDAN), was the extreme • poverty of the • persons accused. But now the argument had been completely changed; 'and those men whose poverty was urged- as a proof of their -innocence, were now represented as likely to suffer severely by paying - their portion of. this 900,0001. in common with so'. many millions of His Majesty's Subjects. This was a subjea which had excited the tender mercy of the Hon. Gentle-. man, •and that warmth, and all that flow , of elc_ • quence with which he had concluded his speech. The.flon. Gentleman had .objected. -to paying the occasional charge e now, with regard to Law Pro. ceedings, he knew, .and he believed that other ,Gentlemen would agree with him in thinking, .that Law' Proceedings could not be carried on but at a con siderable expellee, by all the parties concerned. But by objedingoi the Hon.Gentleman,had done, to the whole ofthe Mot ion,;he would leave unpaid the King's 'tradesmen, -to whose claim the'Hon. Gentleman had stated no objeaion. He knew the expansion, the libe rality,. and the• philosophical nature of the Hon. Gen fles-lan's' mind—he knew the Hon. Gentleman's at tachment to his Constituents, though he did not see them often, and represented them still lesS fre quently ; hat, he wished•he would ask his Consti tuents, particularly those who'served 'the House hold, whether, in order to avoid butting their feel ings,. or injuring the property of United Irishmen, • the Butcher, the Baker,' and all the other tradesmen were to be left unpaid ? Yet this was the part of the case for which the Hon. Gentleman. seemed to have reserved all his powers, and colleaed all his eloqUence; and he could nor but lathent, consider , ing how. seldom the Hon.. Gentleman gave the "House the satisfaflion. of him ; 'that the Hon. Gentleman 'should have wasted so much of his talents upon such a subled. With regard to the other parts of the Hon. Gentleman's• Speech, he shoUld not digress much, • or' go into any greater extent of argumeNt than was necessary. All that the Hon. Gentleman had said .resolved itself into two'points : the ritSt was, that it was inconsistent with the duty of Parliament, and contrary to the system upon 'which the Civil List was granted to the Crown-for life ; in any case to pay a debt contracted upon 'that Civil List---the other question was with respea to the meaning of Mr-Burke's' arguing upon this, and indeed upon almost every other subjea, the Hon: Gentleinan had alwayS shewn himself fonder of quoting any other times than his own, from ally Ministers rather than those whom he has op posed, and- from -any Parliament rather than those- of which he himself had formed a part; 'Alt the Hon. Gentleman had been rather unfortunate in hi precedents upoirthis,oceasion, .for. there. was not one of them that was not an exception to the conclusion which he wished to draw : because the Hon. Gen tleman had not been able to show a single instancs in which, upon a case stared, the Debt had. not been paid ; and he was sure he could not point out any case in which all the circumstances-kid been so fully explained, and all the fads so clearly laid before the House, one which lay in so simple and narrow a compass, one so 'completely free from every kind of suspicion, as the one then before the Committee. He therefore did not feel himself hound to argue at large the question, whether Parliament, by grant.. ing the Civil List for life, had deprived itself oe the power of relieving the Crown from occasional embarrassments. He would not enter into a discussion Of the Civil List, nor would he occupy the time of the Committee, by arguing much upon the con struCtion of Mrs Burke's Bill, by which , the Hon. Gentleman had contended that no debt upon the Civil List' could legally exist.----With regard to this construaion of that Bill, he could only say, that it w(as one which he had never aced upon. His Right Hon. Friend had stated, that there were Many cases in which, subsequent to the passing of than Bill, Parliament had 'been . apprized that debts upon the Civil List had been incurred, and which had not been considered as Violations of that Bill. The Hon. Gentleman. had spoken of an argumentonz ad homines, and had objeaed to any inference being drawn from it; but he contended, that he had a right to press that argument, 'particularly if it related to. a period near to that when the Bill ,passed, and when of course, if the -Bill had been violated, those by avhom it was brought- in would not suffer it to he - violated without censure.--- If the Honourable Gentleman would turn to :the journals, he would find that the first excess upon the Civil List, after Mr. Burke's Bill, arose in the year ending the sth of April, 1784; at that time he (Mr. PITT) had been three months in office, and the otlternine months- of the year, the Hon. Gentle,: man himself was Secretary of State, Mr. BURKE was Paymaster, and Lord GEORGt CAVENDISH was Chancellor of the Exchequer. It appeared dis tinaly upon the Journals, that during the three last quarters of the year 1783, when 'those Gentlemen -were in office, there was an exceeding upon the Civil List to the sameamount as in the first quarter of the.- year 1784. This excess was laid before Parliainent, and -was voted without- any objection of_this kind being urged against -it ; therefore it was evident, that the construction now contended for was not then considered as the real construe.. tion .of the Bill. He confessed that this question about tile` Construction of the Aet never came into his mind ; .and in looking at the words of the ACS, it certainly was a matter of doubt.— Undoubtedly, if Mr.. Burke's Speech was referred to in order to construe the-Aft, 'it might have been the construCtion the Hon. Geotkrnao put upon it ; but it was rather singular that. Mr. Buttta, who was not only a diligent and watchful Member of Parliament, hut a severe and hostile opposer of Ministers at that period, .should not have said one word -about the violation of his own Aft, or con tend for any such construction as that for which the Hon. Gentleman had now argued. In 1786, the subject was again brought under the notice of Par liament, and though- he did not like to revert to accounts of debates which were often incorrea, yet certainly Nlr. BURKE' did not upon that occasion make any such object ion ; arid the Motion passed without a division, though, at that time, very few questions passed without long discussions and divi. sions. Now, if the construction which the Hon. Gentleman now contended for, had been at that time considered as the true construction of the Bill, he would ask any candid man whether it waa likely, in the state of Parties at that day, to have been given up without any comment, and without notice ? He hoped the Hon. Gentleman would consider this as a sufficient answer to - his argument. But the Hex. nourable Gentleman had said that every thing which Parliament might not happen to take notice of, was not therefore to be considered as tacitly ac. knowledged : certainly not in every instance ; but the Hon. Gentleman's argument did • not apply in this case. was not a mere paper .laid before Parliament, and which might have escaped its no tice ; because it related to A very important subject, it -did occupy the attention of Parliament, and was aged upon. But the arguMent did not stop here, for in 1789 there was another application to Parlia ment, in-consequence of one of the Royal Family coming of age ; the subjea was again discussed, hnt no-such construction was even .hinted at. Before the War, the arrears undoubtedly were intonsider able, but after the War had commenced, the subject was two or three times befc#re Parliament, when the arrears begun to be considerable ; so that it ap peared during all the- period, iand- under all the eh-- cumatances he had mentioned, such a construction as that now contended for had fiber been put upon this Bill. • -This observation applied also as an answer to another of the Honourable Gentleman's arguments, which was; that the late Ministers had kept- Parliament in the dark upon this sub ject.' Instead of which, it appeared that they had been acquainted with it, and had given their apnrobation by acting upon it. This appeared to him to be all that was -necessary to state upon this part of the subjea.• If, however, Gentlemen thoaght that it was a matter of charge -against the Kieg's late Ministers, let that charge be made : the Hon. Baronet opposite to him might. bring it forward among the others, if his memory should enable hint to bring forward his Charges better than it had served him in giving notice of them to-night. Even if that was a .gtound of charge against Ministers, still it was no reason against paying the- Debts in question ; it was no reason for not suppo r ti ng the -just dignity of the Crown, or for refusing to-do ,justice to the parties concerned. As every Gen "thstnan had such ample opportunity of reading the Report; and after the very full and able manner in which the subjea had been introduced by his Right Hon: Friend, it would not be necessary for him to • take up much of the time of the Committee in shew. ing 'that this stun ought to be paid.. It had been con. fessed, that up. to the period of the War, the- excess beyond the estimate did not exceed 25,0001. a- year. This the Hon, Gentleman seemed inclined to over- ,