The Sun. — London, England, 1862-02-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS — YESTERDAY. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. THE ITALIAN PROCLAMATION. The Earl of DERBY said in consequence of the an - nouncement ho received the other evening that the Govern ment had no knowledge of the proclamation to which he referred, which he must confess took him somewhat by ?surprise, he found it necessary to alter the terms of his motion. He had furnished the noble earl with the Italian and French newspapers, and he felt certain that he would receive an answer which would give satisfaction to the country. The proclamation had been issued at Le - schara, and although it was addressed to a comman. dant of brigade, yet it was sued by parties respon sible to the Government of Italy. The noble earl then read the document in question, which set forth that no person was to set foot within a certain territory, and that all persons would be shot who were found in the possession of more than one day's sustenance, and treated as brigands. He would leave the document in all its native atrocity, which purported to be issued by a government elected by the general voice of the Italian people, to be ilealt with by the noble earl. He did not think it wa s a p roper way to restore tranquillity after a district ba3 been seriously disturbed. It was calculated to make the whole district to 'which it referred a desert ; and it was unbtard-of cruelty to make the innocent suffer for the grfity, and a disgrace to any person wear ing the garl, of a soldier to have issued such a docu. ment. the noble earl had remonstrated against the sink ing ' . .)f storm ships at the mouth of the harbour of Charles ton, but that was nothing compared to the atrocity of this proclamation. What he wish ni to ask was, whether the Government had yet received any information relative to the genuineness of tb.t document in question from Sir Jas. Hudson, and 'whether he could state if Sir James had expressed to the Italian Government the feeling such a p roel asaation would excite in this eountry, and if Sir Ja mes ,Lad not communicated the information to the coun tlY,, whether he was prepared to ask why such had not been 40120, Earl RUSSELL said—ln rising to answer the noble earl I will first address myself to the character of the notification or proclamation which he has brought under your lordships' notice. I entirely agree with all that the noble earl has said of the character of that proclamation. (Hear.) I think 42othing ran be more cruel or more barbarous than to issue such a proclamation, involving the innocent with the guilty, and spreading desolation over a large district of country, in terfering with the pursuits of industry, and making the Government a terror to all persons. (Hear.) I should add, also, that I think such a proclamation would be most im politic. (Hear.) This is not the manner in which a country can be pacified. This is not the manner in which the inha bitants of any district can be reconciled, if it be necessary, to the rule of the Government which has been placed over them. But with regard to the authenticity of this document I must say I have na evidence. In the first place, it would seem that no person would venture to publish in a news paper, certainly at Turin, whatever the politics of that news paper might be, a document of this nature which was not genuine, casting upon the character of the Government which rules at Turin an imputation which would be most calamitous. The newspaper in question is the Armenia. It is a newspaper well known for its strong political and ecclesiastical opposition to the Government of King Victor Emmanuel. But perhaps your lordships will allow me to mention a conversation I once had with the late Count Cavour, which bears upon the subject. I stated to Count Cavour that his opponenee said that they were under great disadvantages, for while the liberal newspapers which were guilty of libel were always acquitted by the tribunal before which they were tried, those which defended the cause of the injured institutions of the country as it was tailed, which was the cause of despotism and barbarity as he should call it, when brought before the tribunal were always convicted. I said to him, " I think that is a charge which is made against you by those who are your political enemies." Count Cavour said, "It is perfectly true that newspapers on the one side are generally ac quitted, and certainly when the newspapers on the other side are brought before the tribunal they have been gene rally punished. But this inference," he said, " has struck me so much that I have given an order that no Govern - went prosecution, should be instituted against those news papers; they may say in safety what they please, they may libel me as much as they like ; I have determined that they shall not be prosecuted for anything they may say." (Hear.) This may perhaps account, in some degree, for the license which this newspaper gives itself, and I have heard that there have been instances in which documents have been published in this newspaper which afterwards have been found not to be genuine. (Hear, hear.) I trust this may be one of the instances in which documents not genuine and real Wave been published in that newspaper— and I am further confirmed in this by the absence of testi mony on the one side, and what I have read in these papers on the other. In the first place this proclamation, which 'was published on the 19th February, at Turin, has not been noticed by our Minister at Turin in any manner, nor has it been noticedby her Majesty's consul at Naples. Although it had been supposed to be published in a Neapolitan news paper, and in that case it would have naturally come under his observation. (Hear, hear.) In the next place, while there was no evidence to prove the genuineness of the document, he had been told that it bore a striking resem blance to a proclamation published in 1810 by the then Go vernment of Naples. (Hear, hear.) This, I confess, gives me great reason to doubt the genuineness of the document. I should be glad, certainly, for the sake of the Italian Go vernment, and I may add, as the noble lord has said, for the sake of humanity, if the proclamation should prove not to be genuine, and that no such notification had been issued by an officer of the King of Italy. There have been, no doubt, in other instances great severities practised against those who are brigands, and who are disturbing the south ern provinces of Italy. I must state that I believe the pre sent condition of the Government of the King of Italy in the southern provinces is put to a very hard trial. There is not existing, as the noble lord would seem to imply, any civil war in Italy, and those who are found committing murder and robbery are found generally in parties of 10 or 20 per sons, that number being rarely exceeded, though they sometimes muster 40 or 50 together. They come into this country, they occupy these woods, tFey are attacked by the regular troops of the King of Italy, and they fly back when they are dispersed by the regular troops, and the country is for the moment free from them. They fly back into the territories of the Pope. At the frontier of those territories the Italian troops are stopped, these men are disarmed,they are given up to the Government of the Pope, aril though committing murders and robberies, these men are left free to go where they please, and they return as brigands, and will do so again and again. There is not of course much to be expected from the Popish Government of friendship to the King of Italy, but it is not the common course of con duct between neighbours, ( r a course tending to the preser vation of peace. These are not men who are carrying on a civil war; they are men who, many of them, in the time of Francis 11., committed their robberies and murders, taking the name of carbenari, or any other name to cover their designs; and now and then I dare say they may take the name of servants of the deposed King of Italy. These disturbances have given great anxiety to the Government of Turin. I have just received a communication, stating that Baron Ricasoli had declared that during the winter months brigandage had diminished, in consequence of the scarcity of food and shelter, but it was likely that as spring was ad vancing these disorder s would be renewed. I must say, how ever, that issuing such proclamations as that which has been I quoted is not the best way to support the King's authority ; but, on the other hand, it is fr:ghtful to see that the cause of the exiled sovereign cannot be sustained except by small parties of brigands, maintained in the hope that their pre sence may serve as an argument to show that the Govern ment of the King is incapable of reducing the country to order. But in spite of all these obstacles, I have the greatest confidence that the Government of the King of Italy will justify the selection of the people. I have stated hero, as elsewhere, my admiration of the noble attitude of the Italian people, of which, when compared with that of other peoples in a state of revolution, they have no reason to be ashamed. The country has, in my opinion, shown itself worthy of the liberty which it seeks; and I trust that be fore long their independence will be recognised by all the Powers of Europe. (Hear.) The Earl of DERBY said that the noble earl had made a v ery eloquent and impassioned speech, but he had not answered his question. What he (Lord Derby) wanted to 'we whether the noble earl had received any intima uon respect i 4 g this supposed proclamation from Sir James Hudson, The nobl e ear l m i g h t h ave telegraphed and ob tained information since Tuesday last. What he wishqd to know was, 'whether the noble earl had sent, or meant to send to Sir 3. m id range for information; and to as k hi m whether he had any tl representations to the Govern ment of Turin. Al so, the document to turn out gen uine, he wished to I:neral whether s Governm ent to it was the intention of her Majesty' make any representations to the court of Turin. Earl RUSSELL had already Stated that he had received o information from Sir Jame s w ent. He had also stated his ?sees respecting the docu r suspecting its genuineness ; and the first thing to be do ge WAS to ascertain if it was genuine. He had telegraphea to m I t e a r: t y ; t ü b r u n t Turin, and had not as yet received an answer. Should the doe; out to be genuine, he should make such communications as be thought fit to the Governmentthoaftthoef the h ing the case was quite different from if he mentioned the matter m all it would Bt b 7E in ti Zr za t) 74 perfect friendship to the Italian Government. The Earl of NI ALMESB URY said that if the noble earl found the document to be genuine, and that his agents in Turin had made no representations respecting it, the noble earl should state to his agents his opinion of their conduct. So much exaggeration was there on both sides in Italy, thdt it was impossible to get at the truth respect ng affairs in that country unless from the faithful reports o f our own agents. The Duke of ARGYLL hoped that the house would not leap to the conclusion that the proclamation was genuine. He had on the previous evening met an Italian gentleman, who had just arrived from Turin, He asked this gentleman about the proclamation, and his answer was that ho had heard of such a proclamation appearing in the newspapers but that on inquiry he had found it to be a forgery —a mere rethauffee, in fact, slightly altered, of a proc; mation of Murat's in 1810, when he was engaged in pit' ling down the brigands. He (the Duke of Argyll) shou regret very much the publication of this proclamation if IL should turn out to be genuine. The Earl of DERBY thought that the noble duke should have communicated his information to the noble earl. LAW OF LUNACY. The LORD CHANCELLOR, who was most imperfectly heard, rase to call the attention of their lordships to the present state of the law of lunacy. It generally required some flagrant instance to concentrate the public attention on any defect in our law, and we had recently had such an instance with respect to the law of lunacy, in an inquiry which had la , ted for 32 days. The subject of that inquiry had vindicated his title to the management of hie affairs, but he had done so at an expense of riot less than £15,000; while the expenses of the petitioners would equal if not ex ceed that sum. He had no complaint to Make against the mode in which that inquiry had been conducted by the learned master or the jadge. To produce a better state of things, he proposed that in cases of lunacy where a jury was demanded, the matter should be referred to one of the judges in, Westminster-hall, to be there tried as in any ordi nary case. This was a most necessary alteration, as their lordships would see when he adduced some facts connected with the recent lunacy inquiries-. He found, with respect to the case of Sir H. Meux, that the expense was £6,910 ; another was a lady, when the cost was £2,400 ; and another and antecedent case cost £1,909. Another important point was the personal examination of the lunatic. At present it was taken at the close of the proceedings; he proposed that, subject to the discretion of the judge, it should be taken at the commencement. He proposed also to confine the medi cal testimony to matter of fact, and would confine the in quiry to two years from the date of trial. The principle of the law was wholly in accordance with that which he had been stating. They admitted according to the rule the evi dence of scientific persons when the subject was one re moved from the ordinary sphere of intelligent men, but when the subject was one on which men of ordinary under standing could judge for themselves they did not call for scientific evidence. He particularly desired to introduce 1 into these inquiries the same rules of law which prevailed in all other inquiries, namely, that scientific evidence should be received only where in ordinary oases it was received, in the manner whice he had described, and he felt confident that their lordships would on reading the bill become con vinced of the justice and propriety of these proposed altera tions in the law. At present, juries had medical men pre sented to them, who told them that according to the experi ence which they had derived, they concluded that cerebral disease existed from certain bodily symptoms; while on the other hand other medical men stated that the symp toms relied upon by the former witnesses were easily ac counted for, and that from their experience no cerebral dis ease existed. Between these learned doctors it was difficult to arrive at a sound conclusion Was that a mode inwhich these great moral inquiries, culminating in results little short of those which attached to the most serious crimes, should be conducted and terminated ? Undoubtedly not. For the inquiry was simply this—was the individual charged with lunacy in such a condition as to show him to be a person dangerous to be at large, and unfit to be trusted with the management of his own affairs; and they were only war ranted in coming to that conclusion on moral and not on speculative grounds. It was a well known fact that medical men jumped to a conclusion upon some half dozen particular instances which came within the practice of each individual, and they gave their opini,ns accordingly, and thus it was that the experience of one medical man did not coincide with the experience of another, and hence the Confusion which existed in public inquiries in lunacy. It was his object to emancipate the proceedings in lunacy from being specula tive inquiries, and to place them beyond the reproach which now attached to them. If their lordships agreed with him that the law of lunacy ought to be assimilated to the ordi nary rules of law, he ventured to predict that the gross ex cesses and enormities which had been found to exist when this description of inquiry had been found necessary accord ing to the present mode of procedure would be done away with. The other portions of the bill were of a practical cha racter, and he hoped they would remove the evils which now existed. It was matter of deep regret that the present pro ceedings were too costly and too prolonged to be resorted to by persons in humble life. A great number of cases of lunacy occurred where the property was of small amount, and con sequently would be wholly exhausted if a commission of lunacy were issued, the preliminary expenses of which were not less than £6O. He knew of cases in one of which the alleged lunatic had saved £96, and in the other £230, and in such cases it would be an absurd thing to obtain a commis sion of lunacy, which would certainly swallow up at least £6O, and give rise to further litigation. He proposed to enact that whenever it should appear to the Lord Chancel lor that there existed a case of lunacy where the property of the lunatic did not exceed £l,OOO, it should be competent to him to take the same course as under a commission of lunacy, and thus to save all the expenses attending such commission. He might also mention that criminal lunatics were provided for in certain prisons, but that no provision had been made with regard to their property, and he pro posed to treat these cases in an equally summary manner. He would pass on to an important subject, that of the visitation of lunatics tinder the protection of the Lord Chan cellor, It had been an anxious subject of inquiry in what way this could be best effected, and to secure for them the same supervision and control as those lunatics were subject to which were under the supervision of the lunacy commis sioners. A committee of the House of Commons had re ported that it was desirable that the visitation of all luna tics should be the same, and he (the Lord Chancellor) had wished to adopt that report, but on communication with the noble earl near him (the Earl of Shaftesbury) it was found to be impossible for the commissioners to undertake the duty of visiting the Chancery lunatics. He therefore pro posed that there should be an extended power given to the Lord Chancellor to appoint two medical gentlemen, and one legal gentleman, to perform this duty exclusively ; and he would remark that it was essential that they should visit the lunatics at least twice every year, without any previous arrangements being made, so that the persons under whose charge the lunatics were should be in constant readiness to receive the visitors. There were some other provisions in the bill, the details of which be would not trouble their lordships with, but would simply state that these alterations had been made necessary in consequence of a new condition of things having arisen since the last act was passed in 1853. Lord ST. LEONARDS said that, having always taken a deep interest in the subject now brought forward, he wished to make a few observations upon it, although he had not yet seen the bill. He was glad to hear his noble and learned friend speak in favourable terms of the late trial in Westminster-hall. But no doubt such prolonged proceed ings required a remedy. It had been suggested that if the jury had been allowed to examine Mr. Windham on the con clusion of the petitioners' case it would have saved a great deal of expense. But he (1 ord St. Leonards) had no doubt that the learned person who presided at the trial pursued a 1 proper course, and one which led to the right result. Whether Mr, Windham was ruined or not was a matter of peried, indifference to the court ; all that could be regarded was the due administration of justice. his noble and Ilearned friend proposed that all such cases should be tried before a judge in Westminster .hall in the ordinary form, and he (Lord St. Leonards) approved of that alteration, be cause b 0 believed that the opinions of a judge would have grer:er effect on counsel and jury than those of a master. Questions of lunacy ought to be questions of fact, and whether the alleged lunatic was or was not capable of tak ing care of his property. (Hear.) The act of 1853 provided that there should be unanimity in twelve jurymen, and in order to arrive at that result 23 were selected as jurors, leaving 12 as a majority ; but he did not think that that was a convenient mode of trial. (Hear, hear.) In an ordinary case the master's jurisdiction was a perfectly un objectionable jurisdiction, and was exerc'sed with great 1 advantage to the public. The bill of 1853 i n t r od uce d th e 1 new provision that, in order to prevent unnecessary trials for lunacy, the Lord ('homelier himself should see the lunatic, so that if there was no doubt as to the man's state of mind, the Lord Chancellor ceuld act without the inter vention of a jury. As the law now stands, therefore, the property of an alleged lunatic was carefully guarded from being wasted by unnecessary expense. But in a case like that which recently occurred, where a man was moving about in society—whether the nr et desirable,was not the question—where it was certain, from the facts and circum stances of it, that an enormous amount of expense would be incurred, a vast deal of public time wasted, and a great amount of public scandal exhibited,—in a case of that sort his noble and learned friend's proposal was exactly what he (Lord St. Leonards) could wish for. If it was to be tried, let it be tried by a jury in the ordinary way. The next proposition, however, was somewhat startling. It was that the inquiry should be limited to the capacity or incapacity of the person for two years. That was a matter which re quired grave consideration. Beginning with the infancy of the alleged lunatic, as in the recent case, and going on to the moment at which he came before the jury, clearly ought not to be allowed ; but the limitation to two years would not in all eases admit of a fair examination as to the existence or non-existence of insanity. In many cases a much more extended inquiry would be necessary in order to enable the Lord Chancellor to dispose of the case when it came back to him. Sometimes it was found that an alleged lunatic had made a will several years before, and the great contest was whether at the time of its date and execu tion he was sane or insane. The proposition, there fore, to limit the inquiry to two years should not be hastily adopted. A matter which would require still more consideration, if le ssible, was the propo sition that in the first instance the alleged lunatic should be examined by the judge 1 efore whom he was to be tried and the jury. By the present law it was provided that the Lord Cleaucener,ehould examine the alleged lunatic with a view l b ° llt s ee t, i7;,:;,,eier it was necessary to have a trial before a jury; wae, ItiTionneasalllelow made by his noble and learned friend it should be remembered alleged lunatic:sboei wh. re a trial by jury was ordered, the a be d be in the first instance examined. Now a marked man, r: . d t that a man in that position came for wardupon effidavits which, ialatr!u accusation against him,founded prima facie ease h t e ,f o i pinio n of , he Lord Chancellor, showed a for life, or that which was l' r e c r Y. He w '' s on his trial vh e e r ;he a r n h d e it required the greatest possible consideration 1 amieed before evidence had been given s t l o wu re ld bu b t e tehxe- ME SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 28, 1862. evidence against him. He (Lord St. Leonardo) agreed in 1 much that had been said as to medical testimony. It was ' very dangerous to allow theoretical opinions to be applied to the acts and deeds of any man. But medical testimony, properly su called, as to matters of fast, could not be excluded ; and the difficulty was to draw the line, and to say to what point scientific evidence should be allowed to go. With respect to small interests, relief was afforded by the bill of 1853, and the present proposal was an extension of the provisions of that measure. His noble and learned friend was of opinion that it was necessary to make a greater de mand upon the time of the legal and medical visitors, and he (Lord St. Leonards) would be the last to offer an objec tion. Having taken much interest in the subject, he offered these observations, and would give the measure, before it again came before their lordships, his best consideration. Lord uRANWORTH said that the subject was one of such importance that it would be impossible safely to form a conclusive opinion as to it before the details of the mea sure were before their lordships. With respeet to medical testimony he thought it could not tie eichltltd. A non-itrcifee sional man might converse for hours with a lunatic, and leave him with the conviction that he was sane ; whereas a medical man in a very short time would be likely to find out the point as to which the person was of unsound mind. The evil was this, that if the trial was presided over by a judge not competent—and he did not for a moment say—it would be far from truth if he did say—that such was the case at the recent trial : on the contrary, he thought that the eminent person who presided discharged his duty emi nently well; the evil was, that unless the judge was very much on his guard he might, perhaps, lead the jury to give too much weight to testimony, which nevertheless, in point of principle, should be admitted. Without meaning any disrespect to the masters in lunacy, he thought that one of the ordinary judges would in this respect be better qualified to conduct such a trial. He (Lord GI anworth) agreed with what had been stated by the noble and learned lord opposite as to the proposed limitation of the inquiry. The circum. stances fully justified his noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor in introducing a measure to amend the law. In so doing, he cast no reflection upon the noble and learned lord who had just spoken, of whose bill of 1853 it was but justice to say that it was one of the greatest improvements ever introduced into the law. (Hear.) Lord CHELMSFORD was glad that his noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor had taken the import ant and extremely difficult subject wi, h which he proposed to deal in hand. It was not, however, desirable to enter into a consideration of it until the bill was laid upon the table. The circumstances connected with the recent inves tigation very naturally called attention to the state of the law. He did not think that much advantage would be gained by changing the tribunal front the master in lunacy to one of the judges of the superior courts. He dif fered from the noble and learned lord (Lord St. Leo nerds) as to the period for examining a supposed lunatic—being of opinion that the petitioner ought in no case to be allowed to close his case without presenting the alleged lunatic for examination. Doing so would not shut out such evidence in his favour as should be offered ; but it might have the effect of rendering such evidence unnecessary and thus save much time and expense. How could a judge of one of the superior courts prevent the expense which occurred in such a case ? He might no doubt have more authority over the counsel than the master in lunacy, but it was impossible for him to check either the amount of evidence which might be given on the one side or the other, or the speeches of counsel. It con stantly happened that the examination had to be conducted at the residence of the alleged lunatic, but it would be difficult to select a proper place of trial if the judge was to be a judge of one of the superior courts. He believed the place of trial was selected at present by either the Lord Chancellor or the master in lunacy. A preliminary inquiry first took place, and then a commission was ordered by the Lords Justices, who, upon application made to them, 'aright quash the whole of the proceedings, and direct a new inquiry if they so thought fit. An act had been recently passed empowering the equity judges to dispose of every question of fact and of law, and to sum mon a jury if necessary. But that act was permissive, and not compulsory. He believed that in a little time their lordships would have a bill before them making it compulsory on the equity judges to dispose of every ques tion of fact and of law. If that bill became law, he saw no reason why the Lords Justices, who directed the cammis sion, should not themselves undertake the trial. If they tried the case it would be final, and a great deal of expense would be saved to the parties. He threw out this sugges tion to his noble and learned friend as one which seemed to him to be deserving of consideration. He thought it would be difficult to limit the time to which the inquiry was to re fer, or the evidence of the medical witnesses. It was no uncommon thing to see medical men of the highest charac ter giving opinions of a totally different kind, but this was also the case with regard to the evidence of surveyors, with regard to the evidence in patent cases, collisions at sea, and others of a like nature. He would only say that he was anxious to give his noble and learned friend all the assist ance in his power to render the bill as perfect as possible, but it would require the most careful consideration. (Hear.) The LORD CHANCELLOR said he was anxious that all matters of fact should be diligently inquired into, and as to matters of fact the testimony of medical witnesses would be most valuable, and deserve the highest considera tion. But he wished to exclude opinions and conclusions of opinions which could not properly be called testimony at all. Let not the medical profession suppose that he meant to cast any slur upon them, because it was most usual for men to hold different views on questions of un settled science. The bill was then read a first time. Their lordships adjourned at a quarter past 7. HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY. The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. Mr. BERKELEY and Mr. POWELL took the oaths and their seats for Gloucester. HULL SOUTH BRIDGE BILL. This bill was read a second time. IRISH POOR-LAW. Petitions were presented from the inhabitants of Dublin, and other parts of Ireland, for an amendment of the Irish Poor Law. NEW WRIT. On the motion of Mr.I,VIIITMORE, a writ was ordered to issue for the election of a member for the city of Canter bury, in the room of Mr. Butler Johnstone, who had accepted the Stewatdship of the Chiltern Hundreds. THE WHIPPING BILL. In reply to Mr. HUNT, Sir G. GREY said that it had been stated erroneously in a return on the subject that a boy of three years had been flogged in one of the Irisons, whereas it should have been a boy of 13 years old. WESTMINSTER, BRIDGE, &c. Mr. HANKEY asked the First Commissioner of Works when Westminster-bridge would be completely open for public use, and when the houses on the south side of Bridge street would be removed ? and whet her there is any objec tion to a carr:age entrance from the foot of Westminster bridge to the House of Commons ? Mr. COWPER. said that judging from the present state of the w.rlts of Westminster-bridge there was every reason to suppose that the bridge would be open to the public early in May next. The houses on the south side of the bridge were to be pulled down as they came into the pos session of the Board of Works. With respect to the third question, there could be no objection to carriages going direct from the foot of Westminster-bridge to Palace-yari. MEDICAL OFFICERS OF THE INDIAN ARMY. Mr. BAZLEY asked the Secretary of State for India when his promise to place the medical officers of her Ma jesty's Indian army upon a perfect footing of equality with the medical officers of her Majesty's British army would be carried into effect ? Sir C. WOOD repeated the answer he had given on a previous occasion, which was to the effect that it would be impossible to place the medical officers of the Indian army on the same footing as those of the British army. REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND how far the re3ommendation of the coramittee which sat in reference to this departmenthadbeen carried out. He conten ded it was more important that economy, consistent with efficiency, should be regarded in the department of the public service, and proposed with a view to obtaining in formation that the vote should be reduced by £2,550, the salaries of certain officers whose appointments appeared to require some explanation. Sir F. SMITH supported the motion of the hon. member. Mr. 'WILLIAMS said the vote for the naval service ex ceeded that of last year by £9,000, and referred to the sub ject of flogging in the navy. The SPEAKER decided that the hon. member was out of order in going into the latter subject on the present occasion. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY contended that alterations reqUired in the tonstittftion of the Admiralty in order to secure for it a greater amount of efficienty. Mr. A. SMITH said that during the Crimean war the vote was only £140,000, but it had since grown by no less than £35,000. dive years ago the number of persons em ployed Was 2701 whereas it was now 422. Ten years back it was only 235, so that ill that shout period it had nearly doubled. Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that if the hon. gentleman bad coilipared, not the estitilatee j hut the expenditure at the period he had named, the discrepancy deottld appear to be even alarger; for the votes had been exceeded by .g 5,090 or £6,000 a year. The position of the 'temporal - Yr clerks had been under the consideration of the late Governuient, and since the accession of the noble viscount to office, the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had referred the subject to a com mittee of which he (Sir S. Northcote) was a Member, The idea which suggested itself to these gentlemen was, that it would be possible to establish a central department which might be described as a sort of government law stationers' office, where a number of clerks might be registered, and be in readiness to be employed in other departments as might be found necessary. He trusted this proposal would receive the actention of the Government. Sir J. PARINGTON said he thought those hon. gen tlemen who had objected to these additional appointments did not sufficiently take into account the increased amount of work to be done. With regard to the acting construc tor and deputy accountant-general, his belief was that the noble lord was justified in asking for this assist ance. The office of deputy accountant -general he (Sir J. Pakington) believed to be one imperatively , needed. It was well known that the health of the ac countant-general had broken down under the pressure of accumulating business, especially since the late changes and increased activity in the Admiralty department. The right hon. baronet concluded by saying the only item ho felt any difficulty about was that of £2,000 for the appoint ment of an officer to control the transport service. Mr. LAIRD said it was with great satisfaction he heard that the accountant-general's staff was about to be added to, and without such assistance he could not conceive how the business was carried through. Especially if the new system of keeping the accounts was persevered in, he ima gined that at least double the number of clerks would be require.. He felt satisfied that vessels built in the Govern. ment yards were constructed very often at a much less ex• pense than in the private yards. This was a tact within his own knowledge, and he thought it was not well that the house and the country should be led to believe that ships built in the royal yards cost one-third, or 60 per cent. more than they were really built for, (Hear, hear.) Lord C. PAGET said he was very glad to hear the voice of his hon. friend the member for Birkenhead in the house —(hear, hear)—and he trusted his hon. friend would often give them the benefit of his experienced assistance on these occasions. (Hear, hear.) If his hon. friend the memb er for Sunderland (Mr. Lindsay) had been in his place on Monday, he must have heard him (Lord C. Paget) say dis tinctly what was going on in the dockyards as to the recti fication of the accounts. He would not t•ouble the com mittee with a repetition of that statement—(hear, hear). — but he might say generally, that the accountant-general ex pressed his expectation of being able to render the general accounts as perfect as the personal accounts of the seamen, His hon. friend said he disapproved of the deputy account ant-general, He (Lord C. Paget) could assure his hon. friend and other hon. gentlemen, that the accountant general could not do the work that was assigned to hint. No amount of labour would enable a man to get through it. It was simply impossible for a man to be in the dockyards and to be at Somerset-house at one and the same time. His hon. friend objected also to the cost of an acting constructor. The same argument was applicable to this office—that it was impossible to be at the dockyards and at Whitehall at the same time. His (Lord C. Paget's) opinion was that both these appointments were absolutely necessary. As to the appointment of the chief clerk, which was com plained of, he believed it was more a matter of rank than emolument, he being in fact only an additional first-class clerk. His hon. friend the member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) asked what was the responsibility of the lords of the Admiralty—was it individual or general ? Well, this was a very large question. He assured his hon. friend that it had met with very great consideration from the Duke of Somerset, and he believed the duke had, as far as possible, given a different responsibility to each lord. As to the com munications between the clerks and the lords of the Admi ralty, he might say that by bringing the departments toge ther they expected to make the communications between the heads of each branch of the Admiralty and the clerks more constant, thereby aiding the efficiency of all branches. The committee must see that whilst the board sat Whitehall and the clerks at Somerset-house,' there was not that fre quent and rapid communication which was desirable. But even now a much more defined responsibility had been la d down, and greater control was given over each branch. An inquiry had been made as to the probationary clerks for the Navy. They arose in this way. Several youths were appointed on board each ship to keep accounts, and these youths had been directed to undergo a course of instruction under the Accountant-General in order to qualify th m for this duty. With regard to the permanent clerks, it had hitherto been the custom—and he thought a bad custom—that the permanent clerkships at the Admiralty should be looked upon as a distinct class of permanent clerks. The Duke of Somerset had thought it more fair that a limited system of competition should be in troduced. So that whenever a vacancy occurs, he sends up these young gentlemen to compete for a temporary clerk ship; and then the temporary clerks fell into the vacancies as they occurred among the permanent clerkships. In con clusion, the noble lord begged his hon. friend not to press his motion to a division. Sir M. PETO wished the noble lard to tell the committee which had been the previous practice and course of educa tion and what was the standing of the gentleman who was to be appointed acting constructor. He wished to know it it was not true that Sir Baldwin Walker ordered every plate on the Warrior to be plugged, the effect of which was, first, that it weakened the vessel immensely by reducing the thickness of the plates, and running th m into each other? and, secondly, that if a plate were injured, it became neces sary to remove a whole series of plates in order to replace that which was injured. Mr. BEN FINCH observed that retrenchment was not always economy, and that the sums which hau been wasted in so-called economy were perfectly frightful. Nothing was more dangerous at sea than being short-handed; and he thought that his hon. friend the member for Evesham had touched the true point when he made the remarks he had upon responsibility. He nevertheless should support these estimates, Sir F. BARING said that retrenchment was not always economy ; expense was not always efficiency—(hear, hear) —and the losses arising from the latter source might surely be expected to outweigh those arising from mistaken re • trenchment. He could not but express his satisfaction at the explanatiors which had fallen from his noble friend below him, He believed the increased expense;in keeping the accounts would be amply compensated for by the addi tional efficiency. Admiral WALCOTT said he approved of the present form of taking the estimates, and he gave his full support to the increased distribution of money. Mr. WHITBREAD defended the present mode of pay ment by the Accountant-General, and the system of check ing the expenditure. The great bulk of the money voted annually was spen in wages to seamen, marines, officers and workmen in the yards at authorised rates, and the Ac countant-General's responsibility ceased when those rates were strictly complied with. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said the portion of the expen diture which seemed to him to have no responsibility at tached toit was that relating to materials in the dockyards. The question of wages was plain sailing enough. He thought explanation was required with respect to the pro. posed increase of £2,000 for the salaries of the new heads of the transport board. Lord C. PAGET explained that the appointments were in conformity with the recommendation of the transport committee of last year. He believed that ultimately this department would embrace the transport of troops to India but at present it would confine its operations to the trans ports of troops to all our other colonies. He was strongly in favour of a permanent transport service. In reply to Sir M. PETO, Lord C. PAGET said the name of the officer to be ap pointed was Abethell, one of the master shipwrights. He had not been employed in building iron vessels, but ho was a man of much intelligence, and capable of giving an opi nion as to the grooving of the plates of the Warrior. After a few words from Mr. CORRY and Sir J. ELPHIN STONE, Mr, LINDSAY moved the reduction of the vote by £2,550, The committee divided— For the amendment Against it The vote was then agreed to. The next vote was £297,602 for the Coast Guard, the Royal Naval Coast Volunteers, and the Royal Naval Reserve. Sir M. SEY,M OUR asked whether the seamen of Guern sey and Jersey would have the same opportunity for en listing in the Naval Reserve as English seamen. Mr. LINDSAY bore strong testimony to the valuable services of the shipping masters at the different ports in organising the naval reserves, and suggested that they should receive at least some honorary distinction in that farce. Mr. LAIRD tho ug ht a l arge b o d y o f a bl e seamen might be obtained for the reserve if it were o pened to boatmen, lightermen, and others engaged on shore, who were ready to serve, but objected to go on foreign service. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said the shipping masters were not entitled to all the credit for the present position of the naval reserve, because part of it was due to the naval offi cers with whom they were associated in the work. Alderman SALOMONS asked whether commissions in the royal service would be given to officers of the mercan tile marine in connexion with the naval reserve. Lord C. PAGET said the Admiralty had made a com mencement in appointing officers of the merchant service to commissions in connexion with the naval reserve. The gentleman whose commission was first signed was Captain Judkins, who c , ,mmanded the steamer which successfully conveyed the Guards up the St. Lawrence. (Hear, hear.) He had passed the years for entering active service, but he had been made an honorary lieutenant. The £5,000 in the estimates for all iwances to lieutenants and sub-lieutenants was given to them, not as pay, but to reimburse them for travelling expenses. When away from home undergoing instructions lieutenants would receive 10s. a day, and the sub-lieutenants 65. With regard to the shipping masters, the Admiralty were perfectly well aware of their great merits, and the zeal which they evinced in carrying out the scheme. He did not go so far as to give them the entire credit, because there were others who de served equal credit., viz., Captain Brown, registrar general of seamen, who, he might say, was entitled to more credit almost than any one else—(hear, hear)—and secondly, the ntrval officers of the different depots. A. new scale of pay had been arranged between the Admiralty and the Board of Trade in regard tO shipping masters ; and be had also to state that they were no longer shipping masters, but deputy registrars of the royal navy. Henceforth hon. members would he good enough to call them deputy registrars of the royal naval reserve. They would be paid upon a scale esta blished by the Board of Trade, and according to the number of men they enlisted, and the amount of correspondence they had to Undertake in relation to the force. At the principal stations a very substantial addition had been made to their allowances. Out of the 10,000 men of the naval reserve, the number immediately availablaj according to the last return, up to the 31st of December last, there were 6.69 on lon g vo y ages , 2,359 on shoat vo y ages , and on coast ing and home service 4,756 ; but since that date the force had considerably increased. With regard to the seamen of Guernsey and Jersey, the noble lord said they had as good a claim to enter the service as those of England, and several of them had already been enrolled. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote was £68,045 for the scientific department. Mr. A. SMITH asked if there were any objection to give a return of the charts published in the last ten years. Sir F. SMITH said the Ordnance Survey department issued every year a chart showing the progress of the survey. He thought the same thing might be done with regard to the survey of the coast. He thought that the astronomer royal and his assistants were not sufficiently remunerated. Lord C. PAGET said he did not think it would be a very easy thing to make an index of all the charts in the world ; but it would be easy to give an index of the charts already published. With regard to the astronomer-royal and his assistants, the Admiralty had improved the position of some of his assistants. The vote was then agreed b. The next vote was £176,624, for her Majesty's establish. ments at home. Mr. LINDSAY said they had almost ceased building wooden ships except of a small size, but the master ship wrights were paid £650 a year each, while the master smiths, who had to superintend the repair of ironships, were paid only £250. He thought that the salaries of the master smiths ought to be increased, and that the salaries of future master shipwrights should be decreased. Sir F. SMITH concurred in the opinion that the salaries of the master smiths ought to be increased, but he did not think that the salaries of the master shipwrights ought to be decreased. The vote was agreed to. £33,610 was proposed for her Majesty's establishments abroad. Mr. W. WILLIAMS observed that there was a great disproportion between the number of superintendents at Malta and the number of men superintended. There was a very small number of men, and the superintendents had little cr nothing to do. Lord C. PAGET said Malta was a great central depot for stores, and on that account more superintendence was required in proportion than in other dockyards. The ' ote was agreed to. £1,147,678 was proposed for the wages of artificers in her Majesty's establishments at home. Sir F. SMITH drew attention to the fact that the wages of the land surveyors were the same as they were 13 years ago, while those of all ether artificers had been raised. Sir H. 'WILLOUGHBY said a return, No. 44, had been issued from the Admiralty-office, professing to give the cost of building ships, and of particular ships, and he asked if the figures in that return were to be relied upon, and could be used in discussions in that house. Lord C. PAGET observed that the hon. gentleman having been a member of the Dockyard Committee knew very well what the defect of the present system of accounts was. The defect was that there were sums attributed to one service which ought to be attributed to another. He believed the figures of this account were correct, but if they looked into them for the cost of a particular ship there were other items which must be added. He believed the next years' return would contain the most precise and accurate information with respect to the cost of every one of her Majesty's ships. The vote was then agreed to; as was also a .vote of £66,801 for wages of artificers abroad, Upon the next vote of £1,744,184 for naval stores, for the building, repair, and outfit of the fleet, Captain JERVIS asked what steps had been taken by the Admiralty to remedy the evils complained of by the chief engineer of Chatham Dockyard before the Dockyard Inquiry Committee, respecting the deteriorated quality of copper obtained for copper sheathing in the navy. Sir M. PETO begged to inquire whether the wood for which a vote was taken was intended for the building of the smaller classes of vessels Lord C. PAGET said that the wood for which the vote was taken was undoubtedly intended for the building of corvettes, gunboats, and the smaller claQses of vessels. For those vessels he believed that no substitute had yet been found for wood. No one could be more alive to the impor tant advantages which in some respects iron offered to the shipbuilder ; but it must not be forgotten that the conditions of service in the mercantile marine and in the royal navy were wholly different. The vessels of her Majesty had to go into every part of the world, and some of them had to ,remain abroad for three or four years; but in a very few months the bottom of an iron ship became so encrusted with barnacles that she would neither sail nor steer, and, in short, she became wholly use'ess. He did not say that a remedy could never be found for this. Un the contrary, he thought that one would be some day found ; but until then it would, be idle to suppose that copper-bottomed ships could be dispensed with, unless, indeed, we established dock yards in every part of the world. (Hear.) As to the iron cased wooden vessels he was willing to admit that they weuld not be so strong as iron ones ; but every possible means had been taken to make them as strong as possible. It must be remembered that it was a question of time. Other I nations we, e casing their vessels, and it would not be pru dent for this country to wait until we could build a proper number of iron ones. As to the deterioration of the cop per used in the royal navy, he had to remark that the metal showed very different qualities. Some of it lasted a very little time, whereas some of it stood remarkably well ; and it was a singular fact that the purest did not answer by any means the best. Under these circumstances the Admiralty had submittell specimens of the different kinds to a gentleman at the Museum of Eco nomic Geology ; and they were waiting for a report on the subject. The Government did not, however, propose to establish smelting works of their own. If they were to do so, he supposed that the next preposition would be that they should purchase a mine or two. (Laughter.) As to rolled and hammered iron, the aggregate of the experiments showed that the former had, if anything, the best of it, though undoubtedly a single hammered plate which had been prepared by the Thames Iron Shipping Company had shown a great superiority over all others. The Admiralty used the greatest care in choosing plates. Their rule was to select one of each lot which was tendered to them. If it stood the test, they took the whole ; and if not, they re jected them. His hon. friend had perhaps been misled by the experiment which was made last year at Shoeburyness upon a target representing a section of the Warrior's side. This target very successfully resisted the shower of projec tiles which were hurled against it; and it was made of hammered iron, but that did not prove that rolled iron would have failed. (Hear, hear.) The cost of the two modes of preparing the plates was about equal. With re gard to the contractors, there had been only one failure, that of the Valiant. The contractor for that ship pleaded his case in forma pauperis, and he said, in short, that in the pecuniary difficulties in which he found himself involved he could not go on with the vessel. Under these circum stances the obvious duty of the Government was to adopt the best mode in their power of finishing the work as quickly as possible. They, therefore, made the contractor an allowance for the work he had done, and placed the ship p sh in other hand s . It was qu i te t rue th a t there been several several partial fail ures —th a t was because e- but the Ad miralty contractors d had not delive re d t h e vesse l s i n proper ti rniralty w ere sa ti s fi e d th a t th e y had exerted themselves knew what it do; themselves to the utmost. The truth was that they ha was they were undertaking to a f ac t that was prov e d by the increased price which was a fterwards charged for th e same kind of work. In the first in stance therefore, the Ad miralty did not indict the full f penalty, ,butpenntiowlt penalties warned having the contractors that, for the been reduced, would be enforced in every case. His h on. friend had also adverted to Alt. Trottnah , s anchors. He (Lord Paget) had not heard that Mr. Tmtman had been re fused the extra test at Woolwich, but this he knew, that seven mon ths since he had ordered one o f the anchors, and it had not been supplied yet. (A laugh.) Sir M. PETO—The noble lord had told them that he could not as yet see his way to the use of iron vessels. What he wanted to press on the Admiralty was, that, they should n t continue building wooden vessels, but that the noble lord should pledge, himself to a careful inquiry into , the comparative merits of the two materials before he built , any more of these vessels, lie did not contemplate armour , - r plates, but iron vessels of plates, which Sir Howard Douglas had said were sufficiently strong to resist shell. Mr. LIND -AY said that his own exper;ence as a ship owner enabled him to pronounce in favour of iron vessels. He had found no difficulty in cleaning bottoms abroad with vessels of from 1,000 to 1,500 tons, nor did he believe there was any difficulty in China or in Mexico. There were in fact docks everywhere large enough for ordinary vessels. With regard to the durability of iron, vessels of that material which had been built 10 years ago were now, when stripped, as perfect as on the first day, whilst he would be terrified to strip a wooden ship at the end of that time. He should expect the dry rot, and sfiould be glad to close her up and sell her as soon as possible. With respect to the vote for timber, the average for years had been £400,000. Last year they had granted £940,000, which the noble lord said was necessity to replenish the stock. Now, however, the stock had been replenished, and his noble friend asked for £560,000. Why, he asked, take £160,000 more than the average ? He (Mr. Lindsay) thought he should not be asking too much in proposing that the vote should be re duced by £lOO,OOO, which would still leave the vote £60,000 in excess. He proposed, then, that £lOO,OOO be struck off the vote. The committee divided, and the numbers were— For the amendment 2l Against The amendment was consequently lost, and the vote of £1,744,184 for naval stores was agreed to. On the vote of £1,453,561 for steam machinery, Captain JERVIS said it became a serious question as to how many of these iron ships were to be built. it was now clearly shown that a smaller armament was as efficient as a much larger one under the old system ; so that 1,500 lbs of iron in a broadside was as effective as 1,700 lbs were beforo. The experiments at Eastbourne showed that the Armstrong gun was three-fold as powerful as the smooth bore, so that a vessel carrying 10 guns was now equal to an old ship carrying 30. As for the efficiency of iron, it was impossible to compare the years 1843 and 1862. In 1843 iron was used in order to get as cheap a material as possible ; but since then artillery had improved, and now iron was necessary, cost what it might. He wished to ask what would be the cost of the three great iron vessels now building Lord C. PAGET said he would rather defer answering the question till next year—(a laugh)—when the official returns would be made. The vote was then agreed to. On the vote of £464,170 for new works, alterations, and repairs, Mr. LINDSAY asked what was the object of the £48,000 additional amount for new machinery ? Mr. WHITBREAD said that at five of the yards one of these vessels was building. The excess was for machinery used for building, iron plates, and other works in connexion with the construction of the vessels. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE asked the noble lord whether the dredging operations hitherto carried on at Portsmouth harbour had not produced three feet more of water than before an the bar; whether line-of-battle ships could not go in and out of the harbour at any time during this winter; whether the Defence last Saturday did not pass in there drawing one foot of water less than the Warrior, at dead neap tide; whether Portsmouth harbour was not ac cessible any day of the year to ships of the line at high water ; and whether, after the expenditure of this £lO,OOO, any ship would not be able to go in and out two hours be fore and after high water and neap tides ? Mr. BENTINCK asked whether any vote would be pro posed for facilitating the coaling of men-of-war at Ply mouth Sound ? Mr. LAIRD said that a committee had reported last year in favour of improving and enlarging the graving dock at Chatham, so as to render it suitable for iron vessels of the new build. He wondered that a larger sum than £20,000 or £30,000 had been taken for this purpose. Mr. CORRY said it had been stated that the water at Portsmouth was so shallow that large ships at the present day could not enter. He believed that in the course of the last two years, at the cost of £28,000, the height of water in the bar had been increased to 30 feet high water at spring tides. This was quite sufficient o admi' the largest iron ship in the navy. Thus the Duke of Wellington drew one foot more than the Warrior, and the Agincourt, the largest ship in the navy, when launched, he believed would be about the same. When he held the office of Under Secre tary to the Admiralty in Sir R. Peel's Government from 1841 to 1844, it was proposed to make two docks 400 ft. long at Portsmouth and Birkenhead, but that plan was unfortu nately abandoned by their successors. Until the other day they had not a single dock that would admit the Warrior. At Cherbourg there were seven docks drawing 27ft. of water over the sill. At Por smooth there was only one such dock, and he earnestly begged the attention of the noble viscount, the Premier, to this subject. He should beg lad to see larger docks and basins provided at Portsmouth, and he thought that the expenditure of £lOO,OOO would not be too mue h outlay for the purpose. He hoped the Government would give increased attention to this important subject. Mr. WHITBREAD said the average depth of water over the bar at Portsmouth was nearly five feet. So far as their present information went, it appeared that it was lessening a little in depth on the western side and increasing on the eastern side. But fresh soundings would be taken in the month of April, and if they were satisfactory the Govern ment would proceed with their operations. Sums of money were taken in the estimates for increasing the size of the North Inlet Dock, and No. 8 dock at Portsmouth, and they would in about two years be large enough to contain the largest class of iron ships. They would have at Devonport another dock capable of holding the largest class of ships ; and at Chatham they would also have one such dock, making in all four decks which would be large enough to holdships of the largest size. In answer to the question of the hon. member for Birkenhead he would state that the sum of £20,000 put down in the estimates did not represent all the work done in the excavation going on for the large docks, as much of it was done by convicts. To the question put by the hon. member for Norfolk he would say that the matter of coaling the ships was one of serious consideration, for he was quite aware that great difficulties stood in the way of coaling ships rapidly. Whether the ships could not be coaled from two barges as quickly as from a jetty was a question which the Government would not lose sight of. The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following votes : £66,000 for medicine and medical stores. £98,708 for miscellaneous services. £702,308 for half-pay and reserved half-pay to officers of the navy and Royal Marines. £481,026 for military pensions and allowances ; and £194,282 for civil pensions and allowances. On the vote of £188,650 for the conveyance of troops for the army department of the service, Mr. BENTINCK inquired who would be responsible for damage to the machinery of a transport on her voyage to a foreign port with troops, or for any injury sustained by the vessel while landing troops under fire. He was of opinion that if a large number of transport ships were kept by the Government it would greatly conduce to the benefit of the service and of the public. Mr. LIN SAY thought that in the cases referred to the Government would be bound to make good the damage. (Hear, Lear.) It was sound policy to keep as many troop ships as would be required in time of peace ; and in time of war to depend on the merchant service. Sir J. ELPHINSTONE considered that the Govern ment should have ten good troop ships at least. They could then send troops to India for £l5 per man, whereas the cost in hired transports of sending troops to Canada was £l6 per man. The house then resumed, and Mr. MASSEY reported progreis. INDIA STOCK TRANSFER BILL. The SPEAKER again left the chair, and the India Stock Transfer Bill passed through committee. COMMISSIONS IN THE ARMY, &c. The house having resumed, Sir G. C. LEWIS moved for leave to bring in a bill to enable her Majesty to issue commissions to the officers of the land forces and Royal Marines, and to adjutants and quartermasters of he Majesty's militia and volunteer forces, without affixing her royal sign manual thereto. He said the house might not be aware of the precise form which is now adopted with respect to the commissions of military officers. In every case, whether of a commission to an offi cer or the promotion of an officer, a submission was made to the Queen by the Commander-in-Chief, who sent for ward the name of the officer, and the rank in the army it was proposed he should hold. If her Majesty approved of the name submitted to her, she signed her name at the top e of the submission paper, and also signed the di rection at the bottom of the paper to the Secretary of S tate to prepare the commission. The document was re turned to the Common st e h n e t s b e y e I trheitma7to o th f. e st lV t e a rt-o la o ffi r c e e : de r t - h i n e be -Chief, cam u l e t d h e w ass duty en o t f i p n a r t e h e t the paper.commission e a e e ei c o u r , d i gentorat in h n e directionsnhearmy the m t n contained aan deof certain powers the Queen, who gra nted a certain rank to the officers named in the body of it. The com mission was sent with the name of the officer filled in by the Secretary of State to the Queen,and her .11.1 ajesty then wrote her name at the top of the document. It was countersigned by the Secretary of State, and was then complete. The house would therefore see that, in order to enable an officer to obtain a commission in the army, it was necessary that her Majesty should sign her name three times over. That applied to all the land forces, and in the same way the Queen signed all the commissions in the navy. The com missions of the adjutant-general and quartermaster -general in the militia were prepared in a similar manner. The whole of the European-Indian army having been brought upon the home establishment, all these—to the number of about 6,000, besides some hundreds in the storekeeper's depart ment—would, according to the present practice, require the signature of the Queen. The repetition of these signatures produced no practical security; the obtaining the assent of the Crown to the list of names laid before her Majesty, to which the sign manual was attached, being sufficient. There was no advantage therefore in pressing on the Queen, under existing circumstances, what was a mechanicallabour. The object of the measure therefore was that power should be given to the Queen in Council to find what classes of military and other commissions should be attested by the signature of the Commander-in-Chief and the Secretary of War, without the sign manual of the Queen being attached to the body of the commission itself. That was the whole object of the bill, and he hoped it would meet with the general approval of the house. (Hear.) Sir J, PAKINGTON said he should hot oppose the bill, but he should reserve his opinion. as to whelber the house was not assuming unnecessarily the pr ere igatives of the Crown. Mr. HENNESSY thought the Crown 114 'ready possessed the power which the bill proposed to give. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said th at '; they followel precedent in proposing the present mode of de aling with the question. Major PARKER said that under the old sys t em the offi cers of the Indian army were appointed Nvithouot the sign manual of the Crown. The motion was then agreed to. ARTISTIC COPYRIGHT. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the law relating to copyright in works of art, said that at present there existod a copyright in books, in dramatic works, and certain desig, Is. But with regard to the fine arts, there was the act of 1735, which granted copyright to engravings, although it g - ve no pro tection to the pictures from which those engravings were made. That act was passed at the instance of the cele , brated Hogarth. Another act gave copyright in scalleturest models, and casts, and for the same period as engraving s ' That was the extent to which the fine arts were at present protected in this country, and in that respect England stood alone, at least amongst civilised nations, France, Prussia, Belgium, and even Spain, giving protection to pictures and paintings. He did not ask the house to go to the extent of giving a perpetual copyright, as was proposed by the French commission over which M. Walewski presided. He thought it safer and wiser to limit the protection to the period for which copyright in books was given nude , ' the late Sergeant Talfourd's act—that was to say, for the author's life and seven years after. He, therefore, proposed to give copyright for such period to the authors of pictures, drawings, and photographs. He did not seek to make the bill etrospectives so as to give copyright to works of this kind which had" already been parted with. He proposed that the purchaser should have the copyright of the works he purchased unless it was particularly reserved at the time of sale. These were the principal provisions of ti! , e bill. The bill did not e xtend beyond pictures, drawings, and photographs. The bill also proposed to make it a misdemeaikour to put spurious marks on pictures, by which act the reptu'ation of the authors wa s injured and the public defrauded. The bill was not the same as the bill of last session, and was tench simpler in its provisions. His bill did not touch the act's relating to en' gravings and sculptures, nor did he propose to legislate ire architectural works. He thought this was a good oppor tunity for introducing a supplement to the present law of Sir M. RIDLEY asked wile. ther it would not be .a 8 weu copyright. to make some provision for the lastic art. present The a SOLICITOR-GENERAL C y l i T g O ht ß w - hGiEchNrEeaßch.A.Le sculpture.replied that there was at Leave was then given, and the bill was read a first tiroa• The house adjourned at 10 minutes past 11 o'clock. CO UN 2RI MAR. ,'=l AS. 1.-. MANCHESTER—FEB. 27. The market was inactive, and not well attended. Eng: lish wheat only saleable at is decline on late rates, whieu holders were unwilling to accept. Fine AA lerican wheat at 2d to 3d per 100 lb less money, but taken sit, wly. Bei o showed little change. Oats and oatmeal were rl Indian corn 6d down. ither BIRMINGHAM—FEB. 27. At to day's market there was a limited supply of Wii.e at ", which sold sli,wly at late prices; foreign, except PrO i ; samples, at a decline of is per qr. Barley, beans, and pet' difficult to quit, at late prices. LYNN—FEB. 25. Wheat of the best descriptions and in fair condition sold at about former terms ; any advantage, however, in favol of buyers. Best malting barley scarce, ,at full rates, so secondary qualities firm. Other ar ides as of late. Old white 58s to 62s i Barley. .....3 45 to ~,:3644 ..54s to 57s I Oats ..... .22s to rQg Beans .40s to 44s I Peas 44s to PLYMOUTH—JAN. 25. The market was thinly attended, with a retail deman d to for wheat and flour at about last week's currency. 1V 111 „,„ wheat, 65s to 665; red, 63s to 6 4 $ per q r ; French do., or to 62s ; American, 61s to 63s ; Sponish, 74s to 76s • Ilu r sian, 60s to 625. sarley at about iati rates-34s to 388 per a qr for malting ; grinding, 28s to 30s; oats , 22 s to2Bs; 141 beans, —s to —s ; flour, 43s to 46s Od. EDINBURGH GRAIN—FEr. Wheat on top is Od up .average 26 Os 7d d° wlll Barley on the top Cs 6d down Oats on the top 8s 6d up average Off 9d up. u. Beans on the top is Od up.... average is 10d P average 2s 8 d 11P. Total Supply and Sales. Wheat .1104 qrs Sold 895 qrs 8ar1ey........1268 qrs Sold 1090 qrs Oats 2392 qrs Sold 1560 qrs Beans 320 qrs Sold 309 qrs Averages per Imperial quarter. Wheat. . New wheat 0 0 0 0-12ths• Barley 1 12 0 4-12ths Oats 1 6 1 10-12ths Beans CORK—FEB. 26. The following were the quotations this morning :—Rtd wheat, 20s Od to—s 0(1; white, 28s Od to —s Od; barley 11 0 Od to 14s 6d ; oats, 9s Od to 14s Od. DERBY SMITHFIELD—FEN. 25. There was a short supply of fat beasts to-day, and O a , demand was good. A clearance was effected. The suPPl a of sheep was tolerable, at former prices. Fat calves were scarce, and sold well. The show of fat pigs was not large, with a brisk demand. 83 Beef 6d to 6id Veal nd to ii i Mutton ... . 7id to Sid Pork * Lamb Od Odt4old; calf skins, d lough fats,4:o36dd.p er stoP Hides, 3d toe° MARRIAGES IN IRELAND. In reply to Col. Dunne and Mr. B. Osborne, Sir It. PEEL said that he would, in accordance with the wishes of the house, postpone this bill until Monday next, THE REVISED CODE. On the motion for going into committee of supply, Mr. AYRTON asked the Vice-President of the Educa tion Committee of Privy Council whether it was the inten tion of the Government to acquiesce in Mr. Walpole's mo tion for the house to resolve itself into a committee of the whole house to consider the best mode of distributing the Parliamentary grants for education, now administered by the Privy Council ; and, if so, asked Mr. Walpole whether he would Immediately lay on the table of the house the resolutions which ho intended to move in committee ? He wished to know from the Government what course they intended to pursue in reference to this subject. He thought it would be most inconvenient to the house if hon. meml ers were merely called on, in committee of supply, to discuss the vote of the education grant without considering the application of it. Mr. OSBORNE considered that the mode in which the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets had brought forward this question had led to some confusion, and asked the hon. member of Cambridge University, when he would place upon the table of the house the resolutions on revised minute of education, which he coatemplated moving in committee of the whole hcuse. After some irregular discussion, Mr• LO WE said there was some slight misunderstand ing on the matter, and when the house went into com mittee it would be competent for any member to propose any alteration in the Government plan. Mr. WALPOLE, after some further discussion, 'said that he would vary his motion to the effect, that instead of going into committee on this subject on a specific day the house should resolve into such committee. Sir G. LEWIS said that the Government would accept he Proposition of the right hon. gentleman Some further conversation ensued and the subject dropped. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The Tiouse then Went into committee of supply. Mr. LINDSAY objected to granting the Whole vote for the Admiralty department until the house Was informed FOREIGN MAIL PACKET LIST. MAILS DUE. gl• Australia and Mauritius, via Southampton. Mar, - 15' arc via Marseilles Brazil and Cape Verds, by British packet. M' 3. Cape of Good Hope, Ascension, and St. Helena. Mnf ell 4, China, Penang, and Singapore, via Southarnpton.Mar• 0, via Marseilles ...Feb. 1 ,6. Falkland Islands Gibraltar, via Southampton .... .. 4 , India (Calcutta), and Ceylon, via Southampton Mar. 27. via Marseilles Feb. 1 3, India (Bombay), via Southampton Man ,„. via Marseilles Mar. k, Lisbon Mar. -I Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via Southampton ...... . via Marseilles . Feb.......... i Newfoundland Oporto and Vigo U. S. and British_ N. America, E by y Brit. u.s. ppaacckkeett........Man 2 6 5. ' . _ by Canadian packet. Feb. 1 0, W.C. of Africa, Madeira, and Teneriffe m ar. 13. Bahamas, via New York mar. 2S. Mexico ....Feb . All parts of West Indies, including Chili, Peru, I Feb.• 28 * California, and British Columbia . THE EMANCIPATION OF ROME A ND VEN ICE." the usual weekly meeting of the Garibald i Italian Unity Committee, h e ld at their offices, 10, Southasnpton-stieet, Strand, last n i g ht , 11I r. P . A . T ay l or , M•P' (chairman Mr. W. H. Ashurst (treasurer), Mr. W. Sh aen, Mr. R. Wainewright, & c ., were p rese nt. A petition fo r p resent tion to Parliament, praying for the withd rawal of te French troops from Rome, was unanimously adopted. he following subscriptions were announced : —Mr. J. WYl,,_ M.P., £2 2s ; G. H. Brighton, £1 ls. ; Si g nora Mario, : lectures at Preston, per Mr. Dearden (i ncludin g Mr. Niald subscription), £10; Mr. Anthony Rich (Reform Club))0; William Dunn, £5. !ADVERTISEMENT.j—HOHOWay'S Ointment and Pills,'" Universal Patronage.—Let all sufferers from general 0* local disease take heart and follow in the wake of atoll; sands who ~scribe their restoration of hea lth to the use these noble remedies. Rheumatism in the muscles or j o inkt gouty pains, neuralgic tortures, cramps and sp asf oocir twitches depart under the approp riate employment of Ho loway's Ointment and Pills. Bad legs, all kinds of ulcerSt sores, b urns , wounds, pimples , cutaneous inflammationsand dropsical swellings are best met and quickest conquerel bythis Ointment,which happily combines harmlessness la e a v c e q i n y i r e a d ill i t c h t o r odugho personut t t h o e r h i s a , b e i t t a b b e l m e a gl t o r b ta e l s b b e foourled e : e fficiency. The reputa tion Holloway's Ointment a,.d Pi"" o f relief or abandoning hop e . s h d p u a a ir c i e e r n g BIRTHS. CALLANDER...-0/1 the 25th inst., at 25, Belgrave-Ecl ilare° Mrs. Callander, of Prestern Hall, of a son and heir. Cliorr.—On the 26th inst. at 13, Camden-road V in t' , the wife o f D r. Robert Charles Croft, of a dal* ter, T ucle" EWART.—On th e 25th i nst., at 17, Noxfolk-square, rp'erst park, the wif e o f M a j or C. B. Ewart, Royal Foga/- of a son. HORTON.—On the 25th inst., at Oxney Court, near Dov er ' the wife of Commander Horton, R.N., of a son. MARRIAG DONEOALL—ASHWORTH.—On the 26th inst., at , S9l.ll to t George's, Hanover-square, the Marquis of Doneg a,, . Harriet, widow of the late Lieut.-General Sir Fre deric L D _ Ashworth, K.C.8., &c., and daughter of Sir Belling l2B Graham, Bart. Powys—AmEsoN.--On the 25th inst. at Saint Ge or gl Hanover-square, the Hon Leopold V. H. Powys se c°l3 d, son of the la e, and brother to the present, Lord to th , Lady Mary Acheson, second daughter of the Ea and Countess of Gosford. DEATHS. r 's-• CLARK.—On the 24th inst. at 3, Douro-place, Vic' ° ;, i r road, Kensington, John Clark, Esq., of the Payalas'' General's Office, Whitehall, aged 66. ad DRUMMOND.—On the 26th inst., at The Elms, Maidenbe Thicket, the Rev. Arthur Drummond, rec:Or of Charltoay Kent, aged 64. of DALLAS.—On the 25th inst., at Islington Sarah, widow the late Wm. Dallas, Esq., aged 80. FITCHEW.—On the 25th inst., at Hammersmith, Williara Fitchew, Esq., aged 63. GURNEY.—On the 26th inst ,at The Priory, Bedford-hi, lilfor Balham, Margaret, second daughter of the late Rey- " Gurney, M.A., rector of St. Clement's Danes. MORKIS.—On the 26th inst., at Moorburn, Largs, Ayr shire, Major Robert Morris, aged 74. LONDON : Printed and Published by INIURDO - Y 0 -1 i o f No. 1 12 , Strand, Printer, at TILE SDN Office, N o ' 11 2 St r and, in the Precinct of th e S avoy, i n the CowitY ° Middlesex,—Friday, February 28, 1862, a] ce 1)z T - N. • 7 ti le , W • tOZ ' k' rri e • o• • • -0, 11( v7t bal • 1 • • Co 'aa So 1 41. Pte, ter • I TIF an • th ~~ ~•