The Sun. — London, England, 1807-03-12 00:00:00

.. . , of this- totter, as i remember the accbunts came te ! Gently before the meeting of Parliament. • Q. Was Sir Home - Popham .appointed to the Diadem with a view , ofearryingon - oll'ensive opera tions. against Spanish - South Ankerica; and what part of it in ,particular?—A. I belieVe Si-y H. Popham was - appointed to that. ship with the vieui •of co operating with General kiranda ...to the extent of taking adv: - ,ntage of any of lii'sprOceedings, witi i ch might tend to 'our attaining a positibu on the Con-, rinent of South Atnerica e ravourable- to the trade of this Country, but I do .liót ritcOlea any specific place being fixed upon. 4 .. Q. Your Lordship has Saki yoniiad.many cpnfi . .•- denttal conversation s with respect: to General Mi- rancia's plans and views, and, 111atthe,resultiof thes6 . ,_ it tonversatiotii was,. ail opiriloU thit.t 2. 4tlppv i . might • -oat be wise .or essential, orp'etha'pse,-t;irh,in the means - of this Conntrx,..at that I..irriq to_cpmtnittheniselve ttilly to the extent or iiis . .pOjeds, it. was . , of- the - utmost importan.ce .to ihe ititereso.2f.this,o4ntry, far to watch the -progre4s,of.his operations, AS to . make use of them -- if 'they- :eould,%bei . made, stfesey- Vient to the purpos e of openi n g . the' Seutli'Atpel• rican market to theirade and maifigadares of this Country: was that the objed: your Lordship had in view at that'titne when you alpointed:Sirllelme Popham to the Diadem ; and dicl.your EtirdshiP con tinue to entertain the sarno' objeas, to the- same ex tent only, during tbe• remainder of the time you presided at the Ael tni ra l ty- ?— . A..lt was with the v i ew ineatianed i .I i n the question,' that., ,PpOinted "Sir • -Home PoPham• to n tine -Piadeni, and I . 4 .not recollea that during •t ire' - period afterwards- while .. • I...,AFtpained at ,the Adinirity: Qth'ernrnent ' had lint cantemplation - ani 'plan upon a• Mor e expanded 1 bcalp."'':Was ..S;r - T-Iol.ne• : I"t • ip - liari; ii T P - Point - ed ' by . yont tirithip to any 7 'coMiniinci .- sufficient to authorise Ift4t,l,attack any part ofSoutb America ?--A. cr- • talnly not, - ite the, proper sense of the orders. - . ' • Q. Are there ally other notes or official doCuments ... iii the - record Sot the Ministry, to your Lordship's yetolfecleon, Stating - the obje& for which Sir Home , Popham -was' appointed to - the Diadem -s—A. , I- . l• -cannot speak with absolute certainty ; but -I think . • Ctt' Your .- Lordship -said, . speaking of. Buenos A t tu; -that-: was, -one.Tof: . the specific objet s i n -- view, when the armament was incontemplation. in 1.796.: had your Lordship thatplace in yOur view at any._ time Since the brealiing qut , of the Spanish war., up to the year your Lordship retired front the Ad. miralt4s,.b.-- e 4, .A - 4 si ; :p q A so iii every con Versa t 101 l I had Witl4,-...Mis:PittsOrt:thesiable6; I n)Oke no, doubt' Buenos Ayres was often the subject of discusSien. hiy reasons' for;'lleing.• 'so' confide% in that opinion is, thatjn all Cid cOnV 4 ersatibri I ever gave, to the Itubjed of Buenos Ayres, Whether theatrackwFs:to be made on a smaller Or larger •-scale;- - I-always con , sidered the Rio de. la -Plata as a.most important posi tion to the interests. of Great Britain on that siile of Buenos Ayres. - • - -... . Q. I will t a k e the: liberty to ask your - Lordship; Whether it was decided ,npon. by his Altjesty l 4 late :Ministers to attack Buenos Ay-res ? and whether Sir . 'home Popham was apptiinted to any command for that purpose ? —4. I do. not believe thatliis Mpjes ty's Government cellvairc.•ly did ever come to any• 'resol4tion of making an attack on Iluericil Ayres and. it.will be'recolle;:tcd that I have already stated i that it was only a few, nroittlf in file year 1805 thOt I reruained in office. ' ....,,_ : . - ..*'!l: . Presid e tiGL•Whe'n' Si'r^ frotte "Popham was . em- P l 9Yeckby,his Majesty's Ministers, and having used his disciZtiOn; •. and --his conduit Veen. appr9vedof, was ale employed as aeaptainin his4lajesty's . NaVy, or on Service"of - rt natu'ro - clifti - na - and different from the **service ?—A. He came under the latter description;tx-rept' one eircumstalicein the Red Sea, whiell - Marbe•excered. : :- - • ---• 2 -.- • '-- • Q: `Does yonr , Lordship readlie,it.:4im.aing me to attend at Wimbledon; knlIC Alifie• itOhe month of O&ober, - 1804,- when--there . was-nobody:. ,e. (e ,, sent • but 3.•blii-L6i-gslliptilTlVllf:'-filt",4.etrer;rrlt gitti-e- neral Miranda's vjewi e and- discuss-the obi e d which lie was aiixiious. to PitlEtheatteUi O ion i s to. lljos-.. tern ?---.:\:. Ifecolied purfeEtly the conversation hair-- , ing.talien.pface ; but I cannot ~cliarri-e my' imemory. with- the . particular month.. 1... resibil t a - ilerfealy havi pg . received 'such • a - filetnbir; .heing very - glad to • know the - ilia extent of Geti'er4l. Miranda's. views,!:;tut certainly-avoided-commitiinitiiy. he ii.or the Bri tish Government of England ; beyond the obje& I have already' stated, I 'mean the market of - South ,Aterica, upon Nvhich subject I have certainly enter tained a rnost anxiods \:risli. - al - MOSt from the'hbur I • had occasiots to continue in the public cOnCerlis more • immediately under my consideration ; and.that anx ,, .iety certainly. has never dithinishei, h ut much equenc , in creased, in consequence of all the events which for some years past have taken place in the East Indies, ' the West Indies, and above all on the continent of . Europe, • . . , •. •.Q. In consequence of your , Lordship' s great pies , .: sure of business; it, is pos ible you . may not recol .,, ',lelLi the probable circumstances relating t 9 this ob.' .... , , .4 . se well as myself; Who had nothing else to re-. .., t n.ember,..but you may possibly recoiled that you de. .„ i ieclme to draw up the memoir in question ?--A . • . 'l.c64 ta . t'l . ' yeti you . so to do • and I thought I . . ...I.___y ernD, Q -- - . ‘l.ladso ea myself before. i • , , • ( - -1 . Does your Lordship recollect,' that When you ' - ' . 4 did rile the honou r to appoint me to the Diadem, it \vas My sole view to brio • elocution, either g into some part, or .the whole of the' Plan submitted- tO your consideration in the above received memo . randum '?—A. I do recoiled, that whim Sir H. Pop - liall . po • , 1 was a p po i nted to the Diadem the objed then in , w , , ‘ o t_c' ... s f , was to co-operate with the General, in such ti,"l_ L ett s' Mentioned in • • the memoir as. might be ....11:![4youdueive to' the' interests of Great Britain. . , tention of :•your Lordship recolledwitether the in aarranced, - .. " 1 . Ployi_ng me on this Subjed, was so far . .... . . rpt e l .w141)-(ii:tkrtng under your couteinphltion the . nfcliscretion I,o4)l,4)) . l) : l l„i i r a .s i tie to , he employed, anti, the limits . .J.-7ecl, Or -.. .t9 it, suceessfdl' in the first- oh , to me m ost sA .. .op . whatever other Inight appear.' ..by . op_ e , m i t t h e u ' i T t ' rk .lll advancing the general good, cuterpriies of oui- • ts' of South Americ.a for the ' , .I • merchants ?—A. II know certain-. .I- that the 1. , ge"ectaztil_o_obji.eel'wai.the' Sceth Aineflega markets, but F ri) .; i ll iori speal t to any further details • • of it With that . ' at SLl cha . , distan . ce or - tit - nu, „.. as the business. was not sea adi 4 an Ced aS to be the' so ..--; übjeo of detaiLd Slat • • sir H Popleine—Q; w as - .. '• - • ' .1 !t cumomary,toenter a-q Ininutezit the Boar ,: C;l:Utie-raki, w h en an - oeicer, •sra, aelcaNt b fl,e or -the leaditi,;...Nrcrit ber, to make the rcce,sary arAingeine.nts tor secret (-.Nvice, which \vas' after:yard; to be submttc.d to considcration ?—A. Cernf:nly not, to the best of my re-collection. Mr. Sturges Bourne sworn andexurnined. Q. Were you Secretary of the Treasury any time in the month ofjuly, 1803 ?—I was. ,Q. Did I communicate to you any time in that month some confidential coaminnication which had received relative to the Cape of Good Hope A. I remerbber your making to me such a confi-' dential communication, and I believe it might be in the month of July, 1805. • ' • Q. Can you state to the Court for what purpose I made that confidential communication to you ? A. The communication was made to me fur the purpose of conveying it to'Mr. Pitt. Q. What was done by, you in consequence of it ? ,—A.--I•coMMunicatedthe substance of it without loss.of time 63 Mr. Pitt,- even while Sirtr. Popham was in my room at. the Treasury. Mr. Pitt imme diately authorised me to make further inquiry on the subjeo, M the quarter from which the communica tion.was stated to have been derived. I immediate ly obtained aninterview with one of the Gentlemen from whom I - understood the intelligence had' been received, and carried him to Mr. Pitt on the follow ingday ; the result of those interviews was a coni plete confirmation of the statement made by Sir H. Popham , and Mr. Pitt instantly determined . to take the necessary-measures for the execution of an ex peditionagainst rite Cape. Q, Do you recollect whether you received the in strudionssfrom Mr. Pitt either to get the intelligence fgave.you confirmed, or to get some collateral proof antecedent to my seeine Mr. Pitt, in consequence of the original communication I made ?—A. Mr. Pitt, I apprehended, direded the inquiry to be made by me, with a view of gaining the most precise intel ligence that could be procured, but I believe, though Lam not positive of its being antecedent tO ; nly see ing Sir H.:Popham on. this subjeCt. Upon being re :minded of it, I think Lwent down to Mr. Pitt, and s returned to Sir H. Popham in .my room, and accom 'pained him to Mr. Pitt. The name of the Gentle man from whom the information was derived, was .stated by• Sir H. PophaM, and I believe he did ac company me to a houSe in Pall Mall, whete one of them he thought Might be found. Q. Was you present at my conversation with Mr. Pitt on the subject of the cape of Good Hope ? A. 1 certainly Was. • Q. Can you state from your. own knowledge whe tiler any other Expedition to the Cape was in con t e.uplatten at the moment I proposed the one in ques thin to. Mr. Pitt ?—A. I am quite sure that Mr. Pitt had no such Expdition in his contemplation at the tiine Sir. Horne rOpham made this proposal ; and I have no rel:n to believe that any other of the King's Ministerslitd :inch an object in view. •. ,Q. Do S'ou recoruct my taking the liberty, which I did-in conSequenee of the confidence I .thought Mr. Pitt reposed in me, when ,he expressed a doubt what Military' bfficer should command thc.expe dition, and I submitted one to his consideration ?- A. I have a faint recolleCtion of it,.but it is not suf ficiently strong to 'enable me to speak poSiti'vtly on the subjeCt. Q. Did you, from the test of your - reeolleqion, OP from, any conversation afterwards with Mr. Pitt, think it was the Officer that , commanded the Military Department ?—A. I have a strong impres sion on my mind,. that., Sir Home Popham was anxious that Sir David Baird should command the expedition. Q. In the conversation - at which you were pre sent, between Air. Pict and Sir Horne FoPham, was it -desired or proposed to attack the Spanish ,Settlements. in South, America, ,aftc.r_ the-attack upon Ike Cape, in the .evoit of that attack being successful recolleet no pioposal being made in that conversation, :respeelMg the Spanish Settle ments iu South- AtnirTea ;''l certainly have another -time lieard'Mr. Pitt "Late his views-with resped to' South America. William Ilus -E kisson.gq. sworn and examined. . , Were - you imie . •. Were of the. Secretines of the '..rrea 'pry in the .month of July', 1805 ?—A. I was.- Q.' . .Doyou recollect my taking leave of Mr. Pitt in.your room at the Treasury, on or about the 29th of July, 1805, previous to my sailing to the attack of the Cape of Good Hope. ?—A. I have no pre cise retolleaion of the date but I recollea going into my - room at the Treasury, and find ing - Air: Pitt and Sir Home 'Popham together. I cannot .particularly recollea 'the time. • Q. Do you recollect my telling you that Mr. Pitt had desired, I would give you the names of some Gentlemen who were likely to furnish him -N . vich every further information on - the subjea of South Ame, rica ?-7—A. 1 recollect generally fi . equent conversa tions passed between Mr. Pitt and. Myself, in which he expressed an anxiety to gain every . possible in formation respecting South America,' and 'in which he conveyed to me his desire that I would take every opportunity of 'proem - in him such information, and coilcaing and keeping together such is might•be procured; but i.do not specifically recollea the pre cise conversation that took place at sie: Home Pop barn's taking leave.. I have, by Mr. Pitt's desire, more than once :conversed with .Sir Home Popham . on the subjea of that information. Q: Was . the impressiouat all in your mind that I, at the time alluded to, either .from. what I said to , •you, or from what afterwards occurred, that I had at that thane conversed with Mr Pitt on the iubjed of South America ?--4A. .Objeaed Q. .Had you any. conversation with 4.1 r. Pitt, pa r r ticulariy in the course of. the year 1803, respeaing- South America, and particularly RuenoS Ayres ; and did you, by his direction, take any steps respecting; this Settlement?—A. I have already stated.that I had comersation more than once with Mr. Pitt, and par ticularly respeaing Buenos Ayres, and I did take, certain steps respecting Buenos Ayres. you have the goodness to. state -the nature of,thdse conversations generally, and: Vie steps yOu nook ; bin. I do not wish to exa l t from you any dis.; , closure that could either•affed the interests of the State or individuals, howev:ert lie result of such dis closure might be of-essential seivice mane in my pre's'ont 1 . , believe that on almost every' occasion Mr. - Pitt. conversed with Me on the , subject of South AMerica ;it grew-out of some in cident or occerrezi&e which ciilled his attention to : , thar.part of the world rartieialarlt-: - I•recollea ; Oth-Lry thine i UI l-," • I - 1 — as cnnlu not do tt.wit nt a )reac of trust to tn( vidlials),t hat a perstiii bronght to Mean engraVed chart of Ihe,tiio de la Plata, whicli I hold in my hand; ivhich been then recently; as he-informed . inc, publish- ed at Paris,. being the ollgi,tml, taken from the depot Of the King of Spain, at-Madrid : and he added; that he had i:;telligence which .led fo believe that plan might shortly be given to some part of the French Navy,. who would probably fitid their way to:that settlement. Knowing, as I did, that the person who gave me:that information WaS'one in whom Mr. Pitt was disposed to place reliance, I of-course thought it my duty to communicate to , hiM immediately the plan, and what he had stated to me. On this acca- stun some conversation, as may be naturally supposed, passed between us. Mr. Pitt stating to me, as he had before, :the 'views he entertained with respect to South genially, that it was a most essential object to this country to use its naval su periority, and the f2cility that superiority afforded to our operations against'South America, should We be obliged_to continue the war, as he apprehended we should, if the success Of the Confederacy then forming on the Continent did not correspond to his wishes on that subject. 'BLit he thought this plan essential on the subject or Mr. Pitt's Views towards South AMerica. Mr. Pitt explained to me a parti cular objection which had a certain weight with' England at that timelor not undertaking immediate operations against -South America; but I cannot take upon me fo say, whether, in case that objec tion . had not existed, Sir H. Popham would - then have received instructions to proceed to that - part-of the world ; but my opinion is, that he' would. Q. Was that particular objetition'removed . by the complete failu r e o f th e v ie ws w hi c h M r . Pitt - had in fOrming the confederacy on the Continent ? ---A. I conceive it was.: • Q.. 1 think you stated, that, Mr. Pitt desired you to take some preliminary steps with respe& to Bue nos Ayres; 'as, in the event Of failing in his views on the Continent, and the continuation of the it would be of great importance to commence some. operations in &nth America, and still greater to an ticipate the supposed views of the Drench towards that country ?- 7 A. That is certainly the substance of what I stated. .f • Q. Do you know .of any circumstances happening' tochange`his opiniOn in that-respe& With re-' spe& to South America,- l have no'-reason to sup- , pose his views were faltered: , Q.- Do you think his views materially increased by the extraordinary and rapid successes of the French On the Continent; and from the ports of the Conti . - nent being shut up against our trade I believe they were. Examzned by the Prosecutor. Q. I / wish to ask whether you -- do not know from conversations with Mr. Pitt, previous •to the then Continental Alliances, that he was in hopes to. detach Spain by negotiation from her alliance 'with . ' France; and was not that the political consideration which he started, as having ,weight with him, not to commence arty immediate operations against South America ?—A. Tliat was. the political ohjec-: tion to which "alluded it my former answer. He Wag - very far from entertaining any very sanguine Impel of detaching Spain from her alliance with France. Cl.• Did Mr. Pitt : at anytitntrstata to you that Sir Home Pophm . ,had any positive or provisional.'in strations to proceedto Sotith America, alter the re duCtion of the Cane, in' the event 'at success iii that quarter %—A. Certaitily, I never und&stood that he ha such instrukaions.' : : • Q. I, wish to ask whether you . took any. further steps, riacirc than inquiring, rel4tive to Buenos Ayres? —A. I did. Q. Were any Incas:ll - es taken, in . concert with the Secretary'at War, or the First Lord of the Admiralty; in Consequence Of those inquiries ?---A. lean :Only . -state an opinion, upon that ; :1 don't know from Mr. Pitt, whether there were any steps taken, or any force was applied' for that purpose: Q.- DO you not know, from conversations with Mr. -Pitt, that he had in his contemplation .the attack of Bucn6s Ayres, after the redudion ofthe'eape ?*-- A. the conversations I have had, with Mr. Pitt, 1 rather understood that any . attack on Buenos xres was not in his actual contemplation at the time Sir Home sailed for the Cape of Good HOpe. By the Court. • President.— ,, (1..1%*r the political- Objection was removed, I would ask; `whether any order s were is sued, or any force was prepared 'or sent to attack Buenos Ayres ?—A. I conceive that the political 'objection was not removed . IEI6I the defeat of the Russians at the battle of Austerlitz. The state. of Mr:‘ Pitt's health waS_such; at that time, as to 'pre:- vent his attending to public atThirs; or my having any conversation With him upon that or any other sub jeet. • Re-examined by Sir Home Popham. Q. Were any preliminary steps taken for the pro secution of the attack on Buenos Ayres, in which the Admiralty concurred ?--A. A step was taken, with a view to forward operations:against the Continent of South America, whichhadthe signature of the Lords . of the Admiralty.' I cannot recollecTi the nature of it, nor the precise time ; but it was about the period I rec&ved the plan arready alluded to. FouRTH DAY.-TursitAy, MAR-Cll 10. Upon opening the Court,w hich had been previodsly engaged for some time in . delibei - ation, during which 'strangers were excluded ; the President addressed Sir Home '.Pophatn in the following :terms :—" I think, Sir, you will feel that this Court listened to you yesterday with the most . pat lent attention,wlnle many papers were read, and interrogations put which were wholly irrelOant to the qUestion ithmediately before them. They did so from the Consideration of what you stated in your defence •to be necessary, in order to remove. prejudices which yQUI apprehended to have gone . abroad.. With such prejudices this Court has ofcourse nothing whatever to do, and haying attend- . ed to: yorir the manner I have already stated, they-trust you will, during the remainder of this trial, endeavour to avoid extraneous matter, and 'confine yourself to the points necesS:'pl for yOur de ft-nee, against the charge now utidta• our COnsidera . Sir Horne - Popham.—" I shall most anxiously endeavOur to comply with the wishc of this Honour able Goi.trt; qnd I be to present.my thanks for the in:.!ulgcat .have 'experienced. the same time; hoi;e may. be all6wed-tb-cibserve, that al-, !Ilona!: upon tint Z;-:ace . . taken - the liberty Of 541bmitting Wight appear. rrcs . :- . levant, yet , they. in .41 hysla,nce • were lead to other questions immediately hearing ITO the dhargdzagainst I-.l4ope; , the Court Wili do we the justice to believe, that it is toy- tOadhere to that. Whi'cli is Lobviously my interest, nanieli', to • the produetion of those point 4 oftly whicli are like;; to operztte in my dekrice. - .• „ . Mr. Marsden wag then called in and sN'iorii. Examined by Sir H. Popkam: • - Q. How long have yOu held any official situation under the Board of Admiralty ?-•••.A. Upwards of t welve years. _I Q. From the long official - experience whi,. - 4 -you have had, as Chief Secretary to that Board, I ask you. ,whether you. can state to the Court, it in the fi-iAls of Admiral Byng, Lord Keppel,, Sir Hugh .Palliser, or the more recent ones of Sir 3. Duckworth, and• S:i Robert Calder, the charge against chose °dicers was Worded in the mann er in - which the charge is which has given rise to the present Court IVRr... tial ? I mean, Sir, if those orders till' holding the - Courts-Martial in question, exculpating the prisoner, by implication called Upon other Courts to punish the prisoner untried, by inserting in the order s words to •th e following effed :----" Whereas' a due re gar 4 fo r clic dof his •Majesty's sery imperious ly demands that u. So -flagrant a. breach of' pul,iic s.hould not pass' npuni§hed." Admiral Rowley.subnitted, whether question had any thing to do %xit.ll the , charge betbre the: Court ? The .;i - ding of charges wa the business of the• Admiralty, and having been on 30 Cou'rtg Mar— tial, he Could say that they were very attu cliffe-= rently worded:f • . The JudgOi.Ofocke'observed; that arraifftiingibi4 conduct of the ,Admiralty was not the way for thei'! Prisoner to'adopt in defending 'himself. Admiral Stanhope wished to know the i.;bjeEt of the questl44 • ' • Sir Home POpharn-Wislied to remove, or to guard against, the operation of every prejudice excited against him, and: to•shew-the-m; resc.)riA4o to originate.andet-iliese prejudices in motion : the charge, he . observed;:had been published iitthe not's papers. - . Admiral StanhOpe assured Sir Home that such :prejudices lead no . .influence on his mind ; and, from what he knew- of - the - Members of that Court, Le was sure he coUld,sNak for them also: After a few, more 'observations frOm the Presi-; dent, Sir-Home Popham waived the- cineslion. • Was Admiral Stirlingtirdered to evacuate the'. Rib de la 'Plata Not having belOte . I - lett town; of the. questions to be but to me, I de• clare I don't recollect a paper pat into my hands, Mr: jarviS - , - to 'refresh- the witness's memory, pre= serited a copy of theorders is sue d td-Admiral Mr. Marsden could not'Conscientionsly dtil.ose!to . that - paper. ' - ' Q. 1 . 1 . ) you recollect whether any force, as tiohnrY force for the was sent there, after 'the. receipt of my leiter of the 9th of 41)64 J 806 i s.tiat ing the. arrangement I had made for going to the East COast of South Ameriea with the squadron under my command think the Simpson was sent'as a ship intended for the Coe of Good flope station. I believe that shortly afterwards Sir Tho tpas Troubrie was . orde . . - ed there from the EASt Indies. (1. When did the Sampson leave Etic*.and I do not recolleat the date: Q. w a s the. Sampson ordered to call at the Rio de la Plata ?--A. I think she was. 0. And you thou consider . her as a ship ordered . direC.tly to the Cape for the proteztion of it I—A. Not d i U. .1 . ) you recolleet. when V . iras employed in Russia that I had several, Commanders' in the Navy put under . my ()Hers ?---A. I do - not recollea - that faa, though I have no reasonto doubt 0. liaSl.vitness brought do wn the sentence .of the . Court Martial on Capt. Thompson ? Judge . Advocate.—" The judgment of this Court cannot be bound by the precedents of former Conrts." Admirals Rowley and Coffin were adverse to the idea of submitting the judgment of the Court.to such rules. Sir H. Popham did not presume to offer prece dents as a rule to determine the opinion olthat lic notrable Court, bui - inerely to spew that he himself was guided by precedent, and that his cbn du& was not of that singular charziater which had been as cribed to it elselkhere: • ' Mr. 7'. Wilson, a Xeichant, of London,' swo rn and examined. Q. By Sir Horne Popham. --I believe you are a Merchant of London, and have - considerable- inter course with the Rio - .de la Plata ?—A. Yes, I have: ,Q..Do,you recoiled thy having several cotiversa-; tions on that subje;.-1 with you in the summer of 1805 ?---Yes, I do; I .think about. the month oI June. It was respethug the produds of the coun try and its strength, which you learned from a pen.; son who had been employed there by me. The result was, that all the information 1 had was frotu three certain persons. I made a n app o i ntment with ime of them to go up to Mr. Pitt, with Sir H. Pop_ ham, on his return from Portsmouth. • Q. -Did you endeavour to persuade me of the ne-; cessity of pressing upon Mr. Pitt's mind the value of a stronghold in South America`?----A. I newer saw Mr. Pitt myself privately; as the appointments did . not take place, in consequence of Sir„H. Peplum's having intimated that the object \Val givers .up,fer the present. I have been in the habit of trading to that country by licence since t W.?, by neutral vessels, and several times to' Admiral Fa - wkener and, Sit Charles Cottrel 1 have suggested the, great conse quence of that trade to this Country, and how easily it could be efthaed in British vessels, the place it= . self being so, ~yeak. Q. Did you ever mention this to the Board of Trade •publicly?—A. Yes, I did, several times: Aft% Thomas Browneswoi . h,and-iret*ized by SW H. Popham. • Q. Were you .Master Attendant at • the Cape of Good Hope atieT its capture in 1804 ?-A. Yes : Q. Did you constutfr the Cape is a perfect state of security after I sailed from it :with mrsquadron tar 'the river De la Plata ?—A. I did. Q. D you think - Sit D. Baird sb considpted it from any conversation you had with hiui oti th subs jest I do. U. Relate to the Cofart,. as short as po'ssiblei substance of the. conversations- relating- tv chi state of clvictlve is whivb the Cape Wasi.