The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-13 00:00:00

IMPERI dL PARLIAMENT. ,HOUSE OF PEERS, FRIDAY, MARCII IR. Scotch Appeal.—Lothian and Others, ru. Hendor. son, Riddell, and Co. The , SOLICITOR GENERAL was heard in con rtinuation, and at , considerable length relative to this case, . the further hearing of which their Lordships postponed till Monday. The several Bilis before the House were forward. eel in their respe&ive stages-; among these was the Greenland Whale Fishery, which was read 'a third time and passed, and a Message sent to acquaint the Commons therewith. •• The Exchequer Bills Loin Bill, the Cinratnon Duty, the Annual Indemnity Bill, and one Private Bill were brought up from the Commons by Mr, ALEXANDER. Two Private Bills were brought up by Sir C. BUNBURY• These xveie severally read a first time. The Order for the further consideration of CREWE'S Divorce Bill, which originally stood for Monday, was discharged, and a New Order made for considering the same on Friday next. Some private business was then disposed of, and the House adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS, FR/DAT, MACH 1,2. tN'T It ; , ETH Ea A LL, from. the Commissioners of the Customs in Ireland, presented an Account of the Exports and Imports of that Country, which were ordered to lie on the• Table. Mr.CORVY moved for an Ahstraa of the Re ceipts and Issues of the Exchequer in Ireland, from the sth of January 03ot, to the sth of January 1.80 z.—Ordered. Mr. CORRY presented an Account of the Re ceipts and Disbursements. of the Commissioners of Accounts in. Ireland, from the 25th of December z So., to the zsth of December 1801—which was ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. CROFTON, from the Treasury' of Ire land, presented an Account shewing how the Mo. nies granted for the service of Ireland, for the year JBoi, had been disposed of, whiCh was or. dual to lie on the Table. - An Account of the Re ceipts and Issues of the Treasury of Ireland, for the year 18o,t—which was also ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. CORBY moved the Order of the Day for go. ing into a Committee upon certain ACis respeding the Revenue of Ireland. The Order having been read,' Mr. CORRY moved, that the Account presented on Wednesday last, by Mr. CROF rojg, of the Per manent Charges of Ireland, be referred to the said CoMmi tree. Mr. FOSTER said, he wished to ask his Right Hon. Friend, what his obje& was in referring this Account to the Committee. Mr. CORRY said, that his Right Hon. Friend, svho was so conversant with all the business of Ire land, could not but know that there were certain Permanent Charges on the Consolidated Fund of Ire_ land,, which Charges were founded upon Ads of Parliament, all of which had passed under the eye cf the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, except one, which pissed last Session. These Charges, the Tight Hon, Gentleman must know, were in their nature permanent, and invariable in their amount. The House would, perhaps, be surprized, when he acquainted them, that although these Charges were permanent and invariable, yet there was no per. manent provision made for. paying them out of the Exchequer of Ireland. Therefore the situation in which they at present stood, was this—there were permanent charges, without any permanent Fund for defraying them. The amount of these Charges was noless than between three and four millions. The first Item in this catalogue of Charges was, the Interest of. the Debt of Ireland, and - the Sinking Fund,- which every one knew must be provided for. The next was the Civil List, granted in the same manner as it was in this Country, and upon a Simi_ par principle also, viz. upon a valuable Considera tion given in lieu of it by the Crown. These. were unprovided for. It was unnecessary for him' to enumerate all the particulars of these Charges; it was sufficient to inform the House of their nature. It was now proposed to renew these Grants of the Irish Revenue, which, in Ireland, had always been voted annually. It was proposed to-renew them to meet the burthens of the year—burthens which, in „..ieeir amount, could admit of no question :—bur_ thefts whieh did not depend -upon any Vote of Sup ply—burthens which were 'not now to be granted, but which, .nevertheless, pow remained‘to.be pro vided for. It was to provide.a Fund to meet" these Charges, that he now proposed to continue the Irish Revenue Ads, and, -he believed, a more unexcep tionable Motion could not be brought before the House. Mr. FOSTER said, his Right Hon. Friend had not answered his question, the objet of which was to ascertain the ground of the present Motion.— The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that there Were permanent Charges in Ireland, for which no permanent Provision was made, but :he had not stated whether he now: proposed to make these Grants permanent ; he took it for granted no such intention was entertained. If the Right iron. Gentleman now intended to make them permanent, it would effed a complete cli.lnge in the system of the Irish Establishrncn,t, without any notice to the People of Ireland that any such plan was in agita tion' or without any one Member from that ' , art of the United Kingdom being apprized that 'such a Motion was to be made. He therefore must intreat his Right Hon. Friend, not to push his Motion in the manner he now protx)sed. .If this was a pfo 4 - position only for continuing the Revenue for two months, in conformity to the Supply which had been voted, he should riot oppose it. But in his opinion, ;his plan of voting the whole Revenue at once, and as it were in the lump, was neither agreeable to the praftice of the Parliament of Ire liMd, nor of Great Ilritain—because by this mode of proceeding, all power cf examining and discuss ing ;!le subjett in detail was Vecludcd, as the r tails of the Bills were not given. The objet avowed by the Right Hon. Gentleman was, to re-- ' new those Tax Bills, but he should be glad tcsknow whether they bad been voted in a Committee of Supply ; the forms of Parliament required, before any measure of this kin& could be carried into effetl, chat they Should be voted in Committees of . Supply and Ways and Means. These were very salutary forms, which the wisdom of the House re quired, and which it would be improper to dispense with. But instead of complying with these4orms, it was proposed to continue the whole of this Re_ venue,' as if they were merely continuing a tem porary •Statute, without any one Member from - Ireland knowing of any such intention ; for,one, he protested he Ita&no notion of such an intention • 'being entertained. Mr. CORRY said, he had flatteredshimself that he had satisfatlorily answered the question of his Right Hon. Friend, at least, as he understood it.— He now understood -the Right Hon. Gentleman to advert only to the mode and form of the proceeding, and that he did not oppose the objett of his Motion. With regard to the question which had been pro posed to him, he begged leave to say, that it was not his intention at present to propose to make these Bills permanent ;' but" he should think himself much deficient in his duty, and deserving of blame, if he was not now ready to state the reason why he was not now prepared to propose to the House to make a permanent provision for these permanent charges. He accounted for not being now prepared to propose such a measuressby canies to the reeol ledion of the House all the circumstances of the present times, by stating the doubts that from these circumstances existed with regard to the future Establishmen ts of the Empire, and also the doubts which he entertained respetting the future Revenue of Ireland, which it was impossible at pre sent to ascertain. These were the reasons why he was not at present prepared to propose the mak ing these Bills permanent, which he should other wise have thought it his duty to do. Think ing as he did, that it was the duty of that House to, provide for-the public creditors of Ireland, and to give them the same degree of certainty and confi dence with regard to their. Annuities, that the public creditors of England enjoyed ; he was also equally convinced, that it was the duty of 'that House to provide for the Civil List of Ireland, which the Parliament of that Country bad granted to the Crown for a very valuable Consideration. Thinking, upon these grounds, that the good - faith of the • 'Country required chat the provision for these Charges should be made permanent, he should have thought it his duty; following the example which had been set in this Country, to have pro posed a Bill to make them permanent. Upon these grounds, he hoped, he should,, at present, stand excused for only proposing to continue these Bills for one year, and he trusted,. in that Motion, he should not be opposed by his Right Hon. Friend. With regard to the mode of proceeding, which he proposed to adopt on the present occasion, it was notfor him to call to the recollettion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that in the Committee of Ways and Means, provision was made for - the Services voted in the Committee of Supply, but he must be aware,. that money business might originate in a Committee of the whole House, as well as in a Com mittee of Supply. The House, always true to the ' principles of its own Proceedings, and always on its guard for the protettion of its own forms, last year - adopted a similar proposition, which he had brought forward under similar circumstances, and very near. ly on the same day of the Session. He did not then presume to be master of the form of proceedings in the House, but submitted to those who were able, from their superior experience, to guide -him, and was justified in his conduit by the approbation of the House ; and what had been adored last year, he considered- himself as justified in - taking as a precedent on the present occasion. Upon those Proceedings, therefore, he now relied for his justi_ fication. The Right Hon. Gentleman, much to the regret of the House, was not present in his place, last Session, but when he was informed of what then passed, he trusted he would no longer object to this mode of proceeding. Mr. FOSTER rose to explain :--he wished to know, whether there was any Vote of the Com mittee of Supply for more than two months ; if. there was not, he was not aware how they could ,vote Ways and Means for the whole year, when the Supply was only for two months. The SPEAKER said, that the Proceeding now proposed to be adopted, was the same as that of last year ; and that which had been adopted by the judgement of the House, he was bound to con- , sider as regular. At the same time, it was com petent to any Member to object to this mode of pro ceeding ; and when the House direled a different course to be pursued, he should submit. Mr. FOSTER said, he had not made himself un_ derstood. The At of last Session for continuing the Irish Revenue Afts, was certainly for one year; but then the Supply had been voted for a year : yet the case was now different, for the Supply was voted for two Months, and it was proposed to continue the Revenue for a year. The SPEAKER said, that with regard tr. the last point, there was, at the commencement of every Session, a general Vote of Supply, which he understood to be a sufficient foundation for any Member to make a proposition similar 'to the pre sent. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he felt great difficulty in offering'any opinion upon a point of form, after what had fallen from the Chair, in which the forms of the House had been so distinlly explained ; he also felt considerable difficulty in giving an opinion upon a point of form, contrary to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman be_ hind him (Mr.,FosTER). The Right Hon. Gentle man had urged, that there must be a vote of the Committee of Supply, to justify the -House in voting for the continuance of these Revenue Bills: Undoubtedly, whatever was voted for the current service of the Year, must first be voted in the Com mittee of Supply ; but the proposition his Right Hon. Friend meant to make was, not to defray the Current .Services of the year, but to provide for permanent Charges. The Comthittee of Ways and Means was appointed at the commencement of every Session ; but in' 'th t CornMittce, nothing could be voted but •the Provision for the Serviees, voted : in the 'Cottimittee of Supply. . What his Right llonourable Friend meant to propose was, not to .vote a Supply for the Public Services of the year, but to provide for the Interest ,of the .7.itist ing,Debt of Ireland. -The practice in the two countries differed : it was usual in Ireland to pro_ .vide annually for the permanent charges ; in this country, they were provided for at once. In the last year, it was thought proper, under the cir cumstances of the times, to follow the practice of the Parliament of Ireland, by only voting the Re-. venue Bills, of Ireland for one year. The causes which led the House to adopt that mode of pro ceeding last year, would, in his opinion, induce the House to aCt in the same manner ,on this occasion. It was not necessary for him to state the reasons why he thought the House ought to follow the example of' last year, as they had been very,ably enumerated by Isis Right Hon. Friend (Mr. CORRY.) The only difference between the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr, FOSTER) and him was this, the . Right Hon. Gen tleman thought it necessary that _there should be a previous Vote in a Committee of Supply ; on the other hand he contended that they could not be voted 'in a Committee of Supply, because they were not- for the current service of the year, but to defray 'the Interest of the Debt of Ireland, and that it would consequently have.been irregu lar and disorderly to propose them in the. Com- . mitee of Ways and Means. • Mr. FOSTER said, that it was,the practice in Ireland, always, in . the first instance, to vote the in. terest of the debt in the Cominittee•of Supply, •. He did not mean at 'present to go into the 4ubjed, but. he certainly admitted that the Horse could not be too liberal in satisfying the Public Creditors.—He merely meant to object to this plan of voting such a number of duties and taxes in the bulk, so as 'to prevent the House from examining into them in de. tail. He should not of pose continuing these dutieS, under the present circumstances, for two months, but lie thought it irregular to' vote therniot the whole year. _ Lord .CASTLEREAGH said, he did not see the force of his Right Hon. Friend's obje&ion, because in voting the continuance of these duties, the House could not grant a greater supply than had already been voted. At an early period of the Session a Supply for three months was voted, and afterwards there was another vote of Supply for two months. Therefore, the House was at present in the-situation of having voted . the Supplies for Ireland, at least as far as related to the Military Service, which was the most important, for five months ; now these Supplies, together with the permanent charges, the. amount of which was before the House, would amount - to a larger sum than the duties which. it was now proposed to vote, therefore the Ways and Means would, at most, do no more than cover the Supplies ry)ur voted. It was true that in the Irish Parliament the provision for the Interest of the National Debt, and the Sinking Fund, was always voted in the Committee of Sup_ ply, but it really always appeared to his} to be a very strange proceeding to vote that annually which was acknowledged to he a permanent charge : he always considered it as a mere matter of form,. not founded either in justice or necessity. There was no substantial difference between the cotnniit tee of Supply and a Committee of the whole Hot4e, because it was open to any Member to*ost any of these duties, as well in a Committee of the Whyrle House as in'a Committee of Supply : The CHANCELLOR "of the EXCHEQUER. rose to explain. "It appeared that the permanent charges of Ireland, for which they were to provide, amounted to 3,493,960. and for this charge. a pro vision could not he made in the Comthittee of Ways and Means. The Military Services being for the current service of the year, must be voted in the Committee of Supply, and afterwards provided for iu a Committee of Ways and Means. Mr. YANSITTART said, :he saw n6sobienion to the present mode of proceeding, which he con tended was perfeetly regular. The House then resolved itself into a Committee, ir. HODHOUSE in the Chair. Mr. CORRY said, that after what had passed upon this occasion, and last Session, it would be un necessary for him tq obtrude himself upon the Com - - mittee, by going into any detail upon the subject he should, however, he ready to enter. into any ex_ planation in his power, if any Member required it ; at present, however, he should move the Resolutions without furthei preface. Mr. Coital' then moved the following Resolu_ tipns, which were agreed to : That the. Duties continued by an Aa, of the last Session of Parliament, entitled, an Aft for continu ing certain MIS of the Parliament of Ireland- for continuing certain Duties, which had not been re pealed by any other AEI, should be further con tinued. That the several Als of the last Session of Par liament, for continuing certain Laws for the better colledion of the Revenue of Ireland, 4liouid be far ther continued,. . The House being resumed, the 'Report was or dered to be received to-morrow. A Message from the Lords, informed the House their. Lordships had agreed to the Greenland Whale Fishery Bill, and to several private Bills. The Mutiny Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. SARGENT presented an Estimate of the charge of the Office of Ordt,ance, for the months of April and May 18oz. Sir W. LEMON brought up the Report of the Clergy Non-Residence Bill, . which was read and agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Mr. it. ELIOT brought up the Marine Mutiny Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to.anorrow. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report of .the Bencoolen Bill, which was read and agreed to, and . the Bill ordered to be read a third time to. Morrow. The House resolved itself into a, Committee, to consider of the appointment of an Inspetior of cer tain Felons under sentence of transportation, when a Resolution was agreed to, Empowering His MA- J FSTY, to appoint such an Inspeetor, with a Salary not exceeding 3501. per Annual. The House being resumed, the ReP ort " v i ' or. dered to be received to-morrow. TRINIDAD. Tice, Mr. CANNING said, he rose to give n o Ti that he - should on Fridak next, move for certain 1 1 :' t formation relative to the cultivation and population _; the Island of Trinidad. The Information was wil' us he wished to have legally in his possession, pre v i ° to thaking the Motion of which he had give n ns ; Lice, respeaing the sale of the unclaimed lands I that Island. • INCOME TAX. 110 ' Mr. JONES said, he did not mean t o go 1°- o f into the subjed of the propriety or itnprop rietY fbr the Income' Tax, as he merely meant to rnove,,, r , Papers; but he did hope that the Right Hon• dental) who brought in .the Tax, would havhe, been in his place, to attend to the observations wlc`/-ete (Mr. JoNEs) should make upon that subjeCt• t did state at the time the Tax was brought in) , it was very good in. theory, but, that it very co la y monly _happened, that what was. good th e° ,.. o , proved very different in pradice. It was dernvere stratively proved, that theory, and pradie 6 be almost continually at variance; and he thougd`rpc might fairly state, io this instance, that the I nc e ° i c o Tax, though the Yen' , best in' theory, was in P.", 3 it the very worst. "Ilie Tax appeared to hint in r'but 1 to .be founded in error; he might be wr ong' T o, II he begged leave to refer to an Ad of Wilh a ' n ` 4 735 ch. 97, in which there was - a Clause, (which sei, read from the Table, and which enacted,th a , t n ot titer the Corporation of the Bank of Englan n &to any Proprietors of Bank Stock should be livh a t. any Tax or Rate on account of such Stock') thatt seemed to imply that the' Income Tax, was i n his instance, at . least, ,founded in error. It I n wish to call 'the attention 'of the House to t he "but jed, though he. would not enter into it now' A by he I had hoped ,that this TaX .would have cea se ", t o this time as-a-War.Tax,; it-seemed h o wever y e A ir a o be uncertain whether we were at Peace or„ f i c p He wished to see at least a considerable ( O ct , ' hen don of the Tax .take place, before the tim e it would •be out of his power to call the atste ll 'aa of the House to the subjed. He had heartifithe he ,had - appealed to an Hon. Alderman, on e „° jet • City Members, for the truth of the infer t)l " t t, to that the City of London were about to n '' ' et 'consider of this momentous subject. If the t e le , ! and decided wish of the people should once 11e old elated in favour of the ;repeal of this Tax, it ‘i6:l li be wally unnecessary for :: hiai to call the a cre 1 1 e of the House for one moment.to the subie et ° c a o s ns t i l d w ere m d os t t he fla t g ax ra a n s t place. He should move for Papers, he said,' t s ,.. of which were already upon the 'fable of the 1 4 °,?,e He concluded by moving for' an Account 0 1 ' 0 total Produce of the Tax upon Iticonie, as f , 3. ,i 1; the same couki be made up and estimated , 'J l5 '6;l; guishing the amount returned to the Cumni et .aintavxasitioin)osn commono honeto Commissioners.' EVER. BUXTON said, he objcded to the NJ% V it bad , tr ir t because he thought such a Motion ought pressed at the present moment, when the r'f%, Hoi. Gentleman (the CHANcet.Lor: of th e t en 1 CHEQUER) had requested, that ail Motions 00 the subject," might be deferred until it w' „ Icn I i what were the' Ways and Mea ns a tile y e-r o . oft 0 the Right Hon. Gentleman ( t he CFrO cE i L : t hirl al the EXCHEQUER) did not bring forward • bit upon the subject, when he brought f orwar Taxes, then he (Sir R. BUXTON) might c°nct i : r n a tio r ' the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Josas,) any ' flt for the modification of the . Tax., but at Prese":l by did not sec that any objeel was to be at tals— Geo' prodhcing the papers moved for by the 1 4 ,,""1 tleinon, unless it was the ernbarrasstnentf n'" ~p o se jest) 's Ministers, and therefore he should Ct the Motion. r tr, I? 5 ' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ‘'`,c i r ll° he so far coincided with- his Hon. Friend t' f i e rto ° H ERT BUXTON) as to wish , the Hon. G er .; 4o ti°, ll ; (Mr. JoNEs) would at least postpone his in t" - It Was his intention to submit to the Hoti ce ' fel"' course of the ensuing week, s ev e r a l Motin tl Ge ett e ,; tive to the Income Tax, and, if man was not satisfied with those iVlotions, make any supplementary one. lie thought 1,1,p11" He could not be charged, he said, with atniat to _withhold information from that House/ s t eo e t could . not help obsetyin, th'at if an order v l ' io u, in and pursuance of the Hon. Gatticman's It t i t ; would be extremely diffieuit to comply it surely would have been much better f or , Gentleman to move.for an account of the stnni there,. 'paid, than to confound it with an estimate °f be fore warning produce. It wag his intention, 35 Ile 111cva,fr stated, to move for information upon th e and which would be much more minute th' ,e 6t t ° called for by the Hon. Gentleman, with r e litl/ he the different classes by whom the Tax " la ' r ot b, He begged it to be understood, howev e '',. said nothing about the Repeal of the Tax , o n ly ever might be brought forward would h ave ° NI ; view its modification. .„ t `l lti I o Mr. JONES expressed himself a' n-11 1 0 6) g the Hon. Gentleman (Sir ROBERT 13LT:cr° ", say that no Member of that House .ougl." forward any Motion for the Repeal ot a d, ht Ltt , cept His Majesty's Ministers. fie ever, listen to the suggestion of the Right ' t I tlernan the CHANCELLOR of the Exc 02 11 ' r Sir ROBERT BUXTON said, he !fad any. such expression, his opinion being ( join odo opposite to that attributed to him ht o re' c Gentleman. , 0 11 Mr. Alderman CURT:IS 'thought it i: hardship upon the City Members robe , so repeatedly for infOrmatibn, partictddrili;.l-101',,f was out of their power to give it. o °' ie 3111 ,;( tleman had talked, upon a former evening, ) 3a tl t' - c o r them to the Bar to answer interrogator i ' an Hon. Member. (Mr. JON es), called ty• lale~ti6o L'E' L ' c l i, information relative to a -- I'vlacting in r he , could assure tharflon. Get-aka:3n that h - 0 :11:t t v f thing about the Meeting alluded to, eN ce i b i c :Pl4 had seen in the Public Papers., He sl" llu v ery 1)01 ifr ready to ve every information in his P c ' a sse s ! could not give information when he did ontl s : motto Mr. Jo Nis then agi-eed to withdraw. hl LINEN MANUFACTURE OF I nO f sc . s e I Mr. FOSTER rose to make the 11' 41 ° h . ti° ; /V Pl'r he had given notice, relative to the