The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-28 00:00:00

iMPERML PARLIAMENI. ROUSE OF PEERS. MONDAY, DEC. n. TR F. various Bills before the House were for warded .in their respective , stages—mostly third readings, Lord WAesiNcHAm, as Chairman of the Com mittee of their Lordships which sat for the consi deration of the most salutary and effectual means of improving the House with respect to warming and lighting the same, &c. reported a Resolution adopt ed by the Committee, importing that it was their Lordships' opinion that two fire-places . should - he erected at the East-side .of the House, the one above and the other below the Bar, agreeably to the plan suggested by James Wyatt, Esq. Surveyor to His Majesty's Board of-Works, &c. In Consequence, of this proceeding, their Lord ships voted an Address to His Majesty, specifying the substance of the said Resolution, and humbly praying that His Majesty would be graciously 'pleased to give directions accordingly. - The Order being read for the second reading of a Bill, intituled " An Act to suspend, until the first day of July -1803, Proceedings in Actions, Prosecutions, and Proceedings under certain Ads relating to the Woollen Manufacture ; and also under, an Aa pc the reign of Queen Elizabeth, so far as the same relates to certain persons employed or concerned in the said Manufaaure ;" The LORD CHANCELLOR quitted the Wool sack, and after. explaining the nature and provisions of the Bill, a considerable part. of which was read by his Lordship, observed in effect, that it was a mea -- sure of that peculiar importance which requir ed' the most serious and deliberate conside ration on the part of the House : it embraced an infinite variety of legal and legislative con. sideratioos, and these involved such a prodigi- . ons number of details, as' necessarily called for a close and mature discussion. There were also a ntimber of fads connected With the consideration of the Bill, which he presumed their Lordships, with a reference to their usual pradice 'on former occa sions of a similar nature, would desire to have the truth of a;certained. He Was aware that it was the general practice of 'Parliament to entertain propo sitions rather for the repeal, than the suspension of as of the description of these within the cantem. plation of the Bill in question ; but this, his Lord ship seemed to consider as an additional reason for a mature and deliberate discussion of the measure." The Noble and Learned Lord then proceeded to consider the Bill with a reference to the consequences 'of its adoption, 'in a legal point of view; and its effeas with resped to pending processes, adjudication of costs, &c. and adverting to the _particular period, of the Session, he seemed on-the whole to deem it most ad,viseable to suffer the Bill to lie over until after the Recess, when its merits could meet . with a full and adequate diScussion. The Earl of CARL.ISLE seemed to agree with the Noble Lord on the WoOlsack, as to the import ance of the measure then under consideration. He adverted generally to the circumstances which gave rise to the measure, and was, willing to believe that, upon the view which had been taken of, the case, it was deemed by its promoters to be the : best and most effectual measure at the time for the relief of those who were the objects of it. But in such a 'case as. he conceived the present to be, the Noble Earl did not deem this sufficient ; it was the Corn pion paaice in affairs of this sort, especially when prornoted by the Government, for some Mini ster, or person connected with Administration, to come forward, Slate- -the grounds for, and explain the nature of the Bill, together with the various tendencies and bearings of the measure ; in fine, to give the House every satisfaction in their power. upon these heads. In the present instance the Bill was suffered to go' silently to a second reading, without a word of explanation. A Bill, one of the prominent effects of Which' was to suspend the operation of no less limn twenty-two Ads of Par. liament ; anti, without a word being. said of the policy, expediency, or necessity of suffering those legislative provisions to remain in force, or par- . , daily to abrogate them. The Noble Earl seemed likewise to disapprove of the period of the Session in which the measure was proposed to the consideration of ,their Lordships, on the eve of a Recess of some duration, when an adequate at endance of the Peers could -not naturally be ex pected ; and these objections were strengthened by the consideration of the Noble s and Learned Lord's idea of the propriety of having evidence with re speEt to certain farts connected with the measure.-:--- - His Lordship seemed also to disapprOve of that part of the principle of the Bill which connected itself with a suspending power; of which he entertained a degree of Constitutional jealousy, , regarding it as an objectionable mode of setting aside the operation of established laws ) though it was Ceitairrly, he observed, the most summary and flippant The discussion now partook rather of the nature of a conversation, and, Lord ALVANLEY shortly ,delivered his senti- Ments—He consideted the subject principally in a legal point of view, and expressed, his concurrence 'with what had fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack. He was of opinion that some Legislative_ proceedings should be taken on the cccasion, and it was fit that the Public should know that every attention was • paid to the subject by . ttl%at House. Those who were the objeds of the till he conceived as entitled to.a Legislative inter position ; but at the same time he thought a line of iiistinaiOn should be drawn betweeo those who were ona fide to he affected by the Bill, and those who may take any undue . advantage, should it/ conside . v.ation be 'postponed for any time ; as to the latter, he thought a similar principle of redress should not F CARLISLE and AnvmatEY spoke severally io ek'fftifnatiOn. bird•ELLE,NBOROUGH took a general, but concise - `i.-F,Nya the subject, and principally upon legal ' rolvids. seemed in favour of the progress of the Bikatid . defended, upon constitutional principles 'as-well - as those of political expediency, the mode of suspending Legiilative Provisions ) as adopted in the Bill.--' Lord PELll.4lllobservek that he agreed in part with what had fallen from the Noble Earl with re speft to entertaining Bills of this description with a degree of constitutional jealousy. For his own part, he would readily admit, that his principle was to consider such Bills with a consi derable degree of constitutional jealousy.—With respett to those considerations, however, which gave rise to the measure then under discussion, he believed it would hardly he denied ,him that some legislative steps ought to be adopted, indeed that the interposition of the Legislature was in some de." gree necessary.—Under the circumstances of the case, he thought that the best ,course had been taken. He was aware of the irregularity of referring to what had taken place in the other House of Parlia ment ; but the votes of that House, which .were then upon their Lordships' table, may, perhaps, render the allusion regular, and those documents would shew the attention which had been paid to the subjeft by that House; they had sent up the Bill for the consideration of their Lordships, and he conceived it incumbent, not only in respeft to the other House, but in other points of view, upon their Lordships to shew that they paid every degree of 'attention to the subjeft which its evident importance required. It would be superfltious in him to remind their Lordships of the importance of the Woollen Manufaaory, the Staple of. the Country ; the subjeft was one that required the most serious and deliberate discussion. With respeet to the existing laws,—he had oppor tunities of being informed that a considerable de gree of misunderstanding was afloat among the. parties most affeeted by them, and he was sorry to , be obliged to add, that the condu&of some of the, parties (of which his official situation afforded him opportunities of knowing) was highly reproachable. Upon the whole, he deemed the subjeft worthy of close and deliberate investigation, and, at the same time, to call decidedly for the interposition of the Legislature. The LORD CHANCELLOR spoke shortly in explanation, principally with a reference to a point Which had fallen from the Noble Earl ; in the course of which be observed, that it was not until he had thoroughly informed himself respening certain important considerations conneded with the Bill, that he could make up his mind that the mea sure ought to go to a Committee of that House ; and this information his Lordship described to have been principally drawn from the perusal of twenty one Bills which he had read over that morning. The Bill was then read a second time ; after which the LORD CHANCELLOR put the question, upon a Motion, that the Bill be committed to a Committee of the' whole House the first Tuesday after the Recess, which was ordered accordingly. The LORD CHANCELLOR then quitted the Wool sack, and submitted the proposition. to their Lord ships, of which he had given notice ou a former evening, relative to the judgment of the House on the Scotch Appeal, Lord Kinnaird ti. Matthewson, the effea of which was, to affirm in part the deci_ sion of the Court below, ,and to remit the remainder for further consideration.=Qedered. Mr. TYRRELL, Remembrancer of the City of London, presented at :the Bar, several Accounts direEted to be laid before Parliament, relative to the Wet Docks, and other Works carrying on at the Isle of Dogs. Their Lordships waited some time, in- expeaa tion, as we could collet% of their receiving the Navy Abuses Bill from' the Commons ; that pro ceeding, however, did not take place, and at Six o'Clock the House adjourned till To . . morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY, DEC. 27. NEW Writs were ordered for Harwich, in the room of JOHN RoßiNsow, Esq. deceased, and for Gatton, in Surrey, in the room of J. DASH woon, Esq. who since his elelion has accepted of the Chiltern Hundreds. A Message from the' Lords announced their hav ing agreed to the Irish Sugar Drawback Bill, and the Bill for prohibiting the Exportation of Corn from, and permitting the Importation of Corn into, Ire land; together with some Private Bills. ORDER OF THE DAY. Pursuant to the Order of the Day, the House proceeded to take into consideration the Amend ments made by the Lords in the Bill for the appoint ment of Commissioners to inquire into the Abuses in the Navy, and the business of Prize-Agency. The Amendments being read a first time, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL; in taking a view of the Amendments, stated , his object to be to en deavour to spew that they tended to give efrea to the Bill, such as it had passed that House, without being any material alteration of it. The SPEAKER here interposed, observing, that the present question was, whether the Amendments should be now read a• second time ? which he was going to put to the vote, when Mr. KINN4IRD rose, observing, that the rea son, why he again addressed theni upon this subjea was, to explain why he was of opinion they ought not to proceed any farther in this Bill. He had not occasion to trouble - them with repeating his former observations, .because the case was now almost to tally changed; and in, stating this, he was not afraid of being accused, as Gentlemen had heretofore been, ,of needless curiosity, or faaious motives, in moving for an Inquiry ; .or if he were, he should, be glad to share the unpopularity of such reprOaches with some of the purest and highest charaaers in the • kingdom. In the constitutional opposition he now gave, he stood under the shade•of an Authority the first in Law, and not last either in abilities or in integrity. It was not the nature only, but the birth,' parentage, and education of the Bill also, which he deemed toile objeaionable. He knew not exally to whom its birth was to be ascribed, but if report spoke true, it was of noble parentage. Certain it was, however, that it had been changed at nurse, and might complain, like the Irishman, that it was-a loser by the . change. Undoubtedly something less than reproach ought to be expected in that House, by those who opposed measures upon constitutional grounds ; and it was lamentable to think that constitutional jealousy should fly Isom its native soil, to seek for shelter in another cli mate, thus deserving the charge which du: *.tcman Historian made against his Countrymen, at the pe riod of their-declension. Respeec for the high Au thority he before alluded to, should at least induce the House to adopt 'some degree. of caution, and consider well whether in tone and spirit the powers required for this Commission did not already exist in-the Navy and Admiralty Boards, with the ad ditional advantage of being subjea to responsibility. To shew that they did exist, he read an extraa from the Navy Patent, by which, in express terms, the Commissioners were fully empowered, when neces sary, ,to examine witnesses uvon oath. But it was said, that though the Navy Board could examine, it had not power to compel an answer ; but he main tained, , that there was no case where the power of inquiry was not by- law competent to its objea, whenever it was given. If it was meant to wring the secret from the guilty breast, he would say, that no Judge but a JEFFERIES would enforce it, and in these modern days no Parliament would listen to it. The power residing in the Boards alluded to had frequently been exercised, an instance of which occurred in the year I V O, when, in consequence of the Report of a Commission to inquire into the. Abuses in the Viaualling Board, one of the Mem bers of that House had been expelled. As to the grounds of the 'measure, he contended, that Noto riety could form no foundation for a Commission such as this. Was then the basis to be sought in the Report of the Finance Committee ?' He thought not : for the Committee was sensible of the Abuses in the Department of the. Navy, and the impossibi lity of remedying them at that time, but it had not said that there was no power for the application of • a remedy-; it only said, that in the number of the Commissioners at least, and the persons employed under them, a reduetion ought totake place in time of Peace, when the business of the Board would na turally be diminished. As to the Noble Lord' at the head of the Admiralty, the glory .he had ac quired could receive but little addition from the praises of any individual, 'and be hoped. his - brow would be no less graced by the olive than •it bad' been by the laurel,' But admitting that he did all tl:is in the fullest extent, still he would say, that: the opinion of that illustrious .Nobleman was nci ground for that House to go upon, and he knew not from what logic it was to be deduced that the best Commander of a Fleet was always sure to make the best Constitutional Legislator. If any inquiry was necessary, beyond the powers of the two Boards, he thought it should best be made by a Committee of that House. Mr. I: H. BROWNE expiessed his perfect ap probation of the principle and objects of the Bill. He highly complimented the First Lord of the Ad miralty, who, lay his exploits in War, and his 'atten tion to the interests of his Country in Peace, shewed himself to be equally brave and conspicuous in both. Mr. FONBLANQUE said, there was nothing more remote from the intention of the framers of the Bill than that of.co:nmitting any trespass on the Constitution, but he acknowledged that when Par liament granted such extensive powers, it should he careful to impose a restraint and check upon them ; and with all the esteem and public admiration due to the great charaaer in question, he must acknow ledge he was not stire such a Bill ought to pass. The , danger was not so much in the powers themselves as in the abuse of them, Let Gen tle Men revert ,to the powers given to the Star Chamber, and they would find that they went only to inquiry, ,but, the grievance lay .in the Aft not having . spe.:ified a, sufficient check, which enabled them to stretch their authority to Mon strous fines . and enormous penalties. The 'clause in 'the present :Bill did indeed, in spirit, guard against persons criminating themselves ; but in a legal point of view, the Commissioners appointed were unlettered men, who may accidentally ask questions which might be inadvertently answered, and thus bring a witness to criminate himself. If that was the case, the Bill was still defective, and_ ought not to pass; but if the Law Officers would say that it bore a different construction, he would then be satisfied, and give the measure his consent with cheerfulness and gratitude. Mr. FRANKLAND said, the last observations went to impugn the whole body of the Common Law of England ; for nothing was more usual in all the Courts, than for persons to give evidence, for which they were afterwards liable to a prosecution. What he particularly rose for, however, was to ad vert to the dangerous allusion so carelessly made to the Star Chamber: When Gentlemen in great de liberative Assemblies made use of such words, there was that kind of infatuation in the public mind which made them go abroad,' as if there was a de termination in the Parliament to grant powers simi lar to those which history had branded with merited execration. Mankind were ever disposed to adopt outré ideas, though, in fact, the mischief of the Star-Chamber was not so much owing to ita con struaion, as to its tremendous and enormous judg ments. The maxim of Nemo tenettyraecusare. seip ,rum, was not confined to the English Law, but was -an established principle, of universal Justice.., Not._ withstanding which, all Courts were in the daily habits of compelling Witnesses to give evidence, with some limitations, against themselves ; for if it did not subjea them to fines and punishments, it at least exhibited to the Court' and the world the real view of their charafters. In this case, the words Parliamentary and - Constitutional Jealousy were to him unintelligible. Admitting even that the Navy and Admiralty Beards had powers com petent to purposes of this - inquiry, yet they would have to examine into the abuses in their Own de partments, and _then, 'indeed, become the subjects of true- parliamentary and constitutional jealousy, by sitting in judgment upon themselves. The ATTTORNEY GENERAL said'his object was to go distinctly to all the clauses and amendments made by the Lords, and canvass them separately ; which he Was ready to do at this time if it seemed most consonant to the wishes of the House. Speak ing of them generally, the difficulty which he had to encounter was to persuade those Gentlemen, who approved of the Bill in its former shape, that these • Amendments, instead of rendering it nugatory, tended to make it more effective than it was before. There was one thing which , he wished their not to lose' sight of, which was, that the Bill might be amended in the 'presen't . Session, so that' if the 1 powers now given should rove deft tine, or likely to defeat the purpotes of the Inquiry, ' might be enlarged as soon as that case should b 4 made oat. If the objet should be checked by the limitation of the powers, it may be found necessary even to extort and wring, the secret - . the guilty for the sake of the Public, and force then" to criminate themselves and their characters morally though it might not affect their persons or their property. This, he said,.might be the indispensiblq , result of some of these amendments, though if that compulsion should .not in effect be necessary,. he , would rather do without it. He would not, he said, follow the example given him by some Hon. Gentlemen, by restating . former observations upon, points which had been sufficiently discussed before. Whether the Navy or Admiralty had the,powers required or not, they could not be the proper pet'. sons, as they could not be their own Judges ; besides, neither of them had any power whatever in regard to Prize Agency, which constituted a very material part of the abuses. Proceeding directly to the amend' • ments, he observed, that it was meant to insert the words " nature of," after the word " The design of this was manifestly of a merciful tendency, to describe the abuse and not the persons of the offenders. (It would be tedious and uninf, teresting to follow the Learned and Right Hon. Gentleman through the minute and verbal details of every athendment, though it might be proper to take notice of his most prominent observation —What he thought most. particularly , attracted 11 -, ° attention of the House, was the omission of ct'' clause,' and the substitution of another. Gentlemen. seemed to think that some injury Might arise fri2s l inadvertent answers made to accidental qUatibns; but he confessed, that he was one of those who could not see how there need he so much tenderness and jealousy for the protection of crimes, as to be al ways. cautioning Witnesses not to give an answer. • Witnesses, under the present Bill, may, if theY .think proper, refuse to give answers which criminate themselves ; but if they chose to volun.. teer, and did not themselves objeCt to them, the'; they were no longer protected by the - law. In il=l view of the case, the punishment of past crimes v`' ` 3 ' but a minor .consideration, and the future prevet!" Lion of abuses the material objen. But what was , there obnoxious in these provisions ? Did they no follow what was the common and dailfeour'se 01'14; Magistrates of the Country, who told persons: cused, that they need not answer to the charge , , if they were .willing to - confess, it .was zow;:..H taken down, and, if necessary, made use of di" terwards against them on their trials ? This . was the pratlice that pervaded the whole ranze the Criminal Code of 'the Country. He owned, tb 3t if the Bill was not open to Amendment in the course of the present Session he should have pre' felled the Clause as it 'originally stood. The 0 13 " jeftion to the latter was, that it would. enable, the greater to convict the minor - culprit, for 'the former would say " If Ido not disclose, some other will , and therefore-as-I am-indemnified by my confessions I had better save myself." To be candid, how- , ever; he did not think the Clause in its "presen t shape a material improvement to 'the Bill, neither is it a very material injury to it, ,for if founkto im pede the operations of inquiry„ it was ,in t he power of Parliament to sup ply the - deficiency at any time by other alterations. 1-le concluded by de' fending some blunders, as they were called in I. l ' °. Bill, such as the provision, that " The Bill -sha l l be in force two years, unless it should be amended in the present Session," observing that he had 11° occasion to defend what some might call absur dities, though he might feel a little for those NOl° understood them to be such. Lord GLEN BERVIE also defended the languag l He said that such redundanciei, •as lawful q.n e . i s. ' tions," svitful neglect," &c. &c. might be ly open to similar animadversions, but' had v.lwaY been preserved in our Statutes to preserve the."' wary from falling into errors. hich Mr. S AVILLE adverted, to the assertion, w • hat' . he supposed personal to him, that some Member been expelled the House in consequence of a forme' i ; Report of a Commit tee alluded to, bUt ,rnentioneac that his conduit on that occasion was allowed to ha' .been meritorious. (AI cry of Order I) that Mr. Klla Al RD:very readily explained, t . , c he meant no personal allusion to the 1-I,noura'-.. Gentleman, but in justice to hijtiself must obser ve ' that a Member. of the name of RiDG fi had been pelle.d . in the manner to which-1 adverted. •al Mr.IVILBERFORCE said, that the princip..s 'difficulty with him,.who was sensible of the meri ts of of the measure itself, and of the Board from • von' 'it originated arose from the considerable alter , i ir which the Bill had undergone, which mutilate e quat s to such a degree, as to endanger rendering it in c , , fetloal ; and the.provision allowing it to b e arnel'o'll ed in the present Session, was the only ground_eo which he would now support it. lie owned hinls,lc unequal to the task of arguing a law cast wi th ., great Legal Authority so often alluded t o, an" re, therefore should - not attempt it, were it st rial o viler to. do so. There were certainly manY - -p' be committed by people in' low stations, 'who 11 13 ): , if much afraid of legal prosecutions ; and t hereto r ' e in warned, as they would be, by the amende d Claus.vait this Bill, that they need not ans wer, would themselves of it, so as to oppose a bar t o all u . Ss , inquiry. The objed of this measure was con'_re, edly not so much condign punishment as 'the. _Poo vention of abuses ; or if ever great offenders sn i u l i it escape by making useful discoveries, he th01c.,,. would be no bad compromise for the Puh.l i w i r , By the amended Clause, while you seal the an d nesS'slips you are not the nearer punishment ;, it perhaps indemnity would be a good bargain , 11 4 1)/ oie you could come at the real grounds and seat u e _ r .in , . abuses. In taking the first moment of Peace w i , o l ) , both ti' isitei,tßutoianrgd.stliainsdsothbeeGneofivceiarinmanenint qwuierry;,, 85 g - 5 deserving of the' support of the Country. T be 1- :„ L) Lord at the' head of the Admiralty,. who ' "`` S lustrious in War, had, by his services anue attention at the dawn of Peace stamped an a .‘", l . ` we ie - value on his character. Abuses of all kinas had beyond inct the at e d - money fa lse whichse n tim e nts time was nts embezzl e j d ro b ac Y nol t iol s s They knaves, making it a kind of duty in them t v ja! at each. other ;, they enlarged the sph ere %toe raa,ce to taught Dependents b their own r. connivances and Cor y ruptions Co alarger