The Sun. — London, England, 1802-05-04 00:00:00

I HOUSE OF PEERS, MONDAY, MAY 3. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY; MAY 3. I • • - IMPER IdL PARLIAMENT. PREV lout to the reading of Prayers, their Lordships re solved into a Select Committee of Privileges, which was held irithe Prince's Chamber, and ;having sat a short time, they entered the House, and Prayers were read. Counsel were heard in continuation, and at considerable length, relative to the Scotch Appeal, I log v. Thwaites and others;—after which the further hearing at the case was ad journed till Thursday,. • Marquis ConNwALLis was sworn and took his scat. The Bills before the House were forwarded in their re speelive st4es. Tile French Wine Importation Bill, the Exports and Im ports Duty Bit', and a number of Private Bills were brougl - ,t up trom the Commons, the greater part of which were read a first time. The order for the second reading of Lane's Divorce which stood for Thursday nex, was, on the motion of Lord NV A LSI N C-11 Am, finally discharged. Some private business was then di:posed of, and the House adjourned until to-morrow. A new Writ was ordered for the Borough of Newark-, in t/ste 7'00;11 of THOMAS MANNERS SUTTON, Esq. who has accepied the 0 ttice of Solicitor General. A Petition was presented from the Inhabitants of Port Sligo, against the Bill tor improving the Harbour of Port Sligo, which was ordered to lie op the Table till the second reacting, acid Counsel were ordered to be heard for and against the Bill. Alderman Lus It N G TON movd for leave, to bring in a.Bill for regulati'ng the Fish-Market, Nvbieh was granted. To, Irish linen Ttianufadure Bill was ordered to be printed. The. Scotch Militia Bill was read 'a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. The Sugar Drawback Bill went through a Comtnittteof the whole House, and the Report ordered to be received to morrow. Mr. COR RY brought up a Bill for the better encourage ment of Irish Mariners, which was read a first time, and or tiered to be read a second time to-morrow. The Report of the Committee of Supply, on the Sums to raised by Lottery, was brought up. On the Motion of Mr. O'll A RA, the second reading of the Port Sligo Harbour Bill was put off to Thursday. The Report of the Committee'on the Militia Bill was or dered to be taken into consideration to-morrow. - Several Accounts relative to the Irish Expenditure were presented, and ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. WINDHAM rose, in consequence of a nm tice on a former day, to lay before the House the grounds on which he thought a Motion might be founded, relative to the Definitive Treaty. He did not intend at present to make any Motion, but only to give notice of a day, at a proper distance, on which he .should olfer such a Motion to the House. His Majesty's Ministers had said that it was not their intention to make any Motion on the subject, as it was unusual to make any inquiry into the Definitive Treaty, after the Preliminary one had been so amply discussed. Whether the rule was invariable or not, or whether it was a rule which would be more honoured in the breach than the observance, he should not enquire; but certainly it went on the supposition, that the House was bound by the opinion they had given with resped to the Preliminary Treaty—a supposition which he, and those who should concur in his Motion, could by no means agree to ; so much the contrary, that they maintained that the House had a right to alter their opinion,. even if the Definitive Treaty entirely agreed with the Preliminary, much more so when they essentially differed. That the latter was the case in the present instance, he should now endeavour to prove ; and, in doing so, would fol low that order which he considered most perspicuous and least intricate. He was willing to treat the affair with all .that candour and fairness which Ministers required ; but, if what fell from a Noble Lord (Lord HAWKESBURY), on a former day, meant that the whole discussion should be crowded together into one debate, he could by no means assent to such a method. It was like a Counsel in a Court of Law being forced to sum up every point that was to be considered by the Jury, before he had examined the Witnesses. In a simi lar predicament should he be placed, if he was forced to sum up the whole Discussion before he had an opportunity of ca lli ng f or an d exam i n i ng such Papers as might tend to throw light on each particular point. Whether the Ministry chose now or hereafter to enter on the discussion, belonged to them ; he should place his Motion at such a dis tance of time as to give them full leisure to prepare. As the most convenient order for shewing the reasons on which he intended to found his Motion, he should divide, the whole subjeft into four Heads. The first Head comprehended such points as were un known at the time of the Preliminary Treaty, though it appears they were then determined on. Under this class he should rank the Cession of the Isle of Elba, the new boundaries fixed to French Guiana, and the complete cession of Louisiana to the French Government. With regard to the Isle of Elba, two things were to be taken into consi - - deration. The importance of the place itself was the first objet ; and who would not allow its great importance, when we considered its excelle nt bour, its impregnable fortress, and the advan tageous station which it afforded to our vessels. - In the second place, the manner in which it was ceded was not of much less importance. By the Treaty of Lunevilie, when Tuscany was given up, the Elba was retained. But our dexterous enemy fell . upon a new method of obtaining possession of it. As an Algebraist, in order to render his quan titie4 more manageable, be divides them into por tions when his board becomes . ineumbered ; so France parcelled out her territories into subordinate Republics and Kingdoms, and by that means obtained possession of Elba, while the cession appeared to be made to the Duke-King she had set up in Tus cany. Elba, thus ceded to France, strengthens her hands in a future war, and remains either to be re taken by us, or to do us infinite mischief. This article alone, without any other, makes the finitive Treaty a' new question, entirely different from the Preliminaries. The new boundaries fixed to the French possessions in Guiana, furnished ano .-ther instance. To preserve the integrity of their 'possessions in this quarter, had long been reckoned an objet of the utmost importance by the Portu guese. But he would not enter into this subjea. at present. Leaving the importance of- the objeCt it self to future comnideration, he should only advert to it as anotlger instance of the bad faith of France. The integrity of Portugal had been expressly, Se el:red by the Preliminaries. This article had been lireccily violated by the Dcfiuldve Treaty and in this affair Ile was at a loss whether most to admire, the duplicity of the French Negotiators or the fa cility of the English in submitting to such imposi tion. The new boundary removed none of the in conveniences that were dreaded from the former boundaries they pretended to ; and we had only one fraud for another. In order to rise in the climax, we must next turn our eyes to Louisiana. If we dired our view either Southward or Northward, the immense advantages given up to France by the cession of this extensive country, must confound us. On the North, we behold America exposed to she domineering spirit of France, which she must tamely submit to, as she had no means of defence. What would be the - consequence ? Her fears would make her court France by join ing in enmity to this Country, and the stronger her fears, the greater would the effais of that enmity be. On the South, France had no limits set her, hut her own will. Such was the situa tion of Louisiana, that the whole wealth - of the New World was thrown open, and must flow into the hands of France. The second division of the subject comprehended those points which appear to have been known, but the consequences 'not weighed at the time of the Preliminary Treaty. If the catalogue of these was not numerous, this was made up by their importance. Under this class he should comprehend the Italian Republic, and the Armament to the West Indies. He asserted, that though none of the Contrading Parties had been concerned in the formation of this Republic, yet so great was the change- ntroduced by it into the state of Europe, that the Preliminaries might fairly be considered as done away by it ; there was no period in the history of Europe, in which such a change might not have justified, and would not have produced a War. What then shall we say when this change is made by one of the Contraffing Par ties, and interposed between a Preliminary and a Definitive Treaty? " But," slid he, " we are now so subdued by France, so thoroughly humbled, that all this passes unnoticed. This is - a painful subject, and I am unwilling to dwell upon it. But let us consider the situation in which the New Constitu_ tion of this Republic places our Allies. What must Austria feel when she sees that feeble barrier which had been opposed to the encroachments of France, now gone to increase the strength of her enemy ? But she feels her danger too much to lave resolu tion to oppose it." He next adverted to the French Armament sent to the \Vest Indies. He said, he did not intend to dwell on this subjth, but only to shew that this Armament altered our state in the West Indies ; and when we considered how greatly this must increase the French influence there, he would venture to say, that if the conee_ .. quences had been foreseen, it would not have been overlooked - in the Preliminaries. The third divi sion of the subjea comprehended those points in which the Definitive Treaty departed from the Pre liminaries. The first article he adverted to, was the expellees of the Prisoners. A large debt by th e Preliminaries came to be due to us from France. In order to secure it to us, we had heard of Isles to be mortgaged to us by France, but no one that knew France, would believe such chimeras. The truth is, France refused to pay the debt, and we had not' courage to demand it. It was proper, however, that some plausible pretext should be fallen upon in order to cover our weakness : and it was to -be. wished, we had fallen on some one that exposed us to less contempt and ridicule. We were not only to pay the expenses of our own Troops, but thOse of Russia ; the new cloathing and equipping of the Russian Prisoners, was all at our expence ;es-France had the credit of making a present to the Erriperor of Russia, at the expence of our degraded and ridi culed Country. The next alteration respected Mal ta. By the Preliminaries it was to have been re stored to the Order, and put under the proteetion of a Neutral Power. In the Definitive Treaty, by a most unaccountable juggling, we had been ousted, and France put its possession ; for he saw no reason to doubt that this would be its fare. In restor-, ing.it to the Order, it was necessary to consider how the Order was to be supported. Their landed and commercial Revenues together, did not amount, to above 30,0001. Most of their revenues existed out of the Island, and of these 4-eths had already been taken away. What remained was barely suf ficient to maintain the Order ; where then was the provision for Troops to garrison the Island ? The Order itself was new-modelled. An Orde e founded on Nobility, was changed into Tiers Etat, and our Constitution-mongering had ended in framing Malta after the model of France. Instead of a Neutral Power, we had pitched upon one entirely under the influence of France, for such, we ourselves, by this very Article, owned Naples to be. The Treaty obliged us to evacuate Malta in three months. It was then to be given up to the Order, and other Articles were added, not for our security, but merely for the con veniency of the Maltese. With regard to the article in which it is said, " the Neutrality of Malta is proclaimed :" he looked upon the word proclaimed as of doubtful import. The word Neutrality he thought not well understood. There are, he -said, three modes of Neutrality ; by one mode, all ships were permitted to enter ; by another, none were admitted ; by a third, the most, general by far, an equal number of each nation was permitted to enter. By the latter explanation, which was usually adopted, when the British had six ships there, France, and her dependants, Spain and Holland might have the same number each ; and France would thus have eighteen to our six ships. Another deviation from the Preliminaries was seen in the Cape. By the Preliminaries all ships were to be alike admitted into the Cape ; by the Defini tive Treaty, the full sovereignty is given up to the. Dutch. Holland is not restricted from putting a French garrison into this colony ; and when to this we add the insertion of the su perfluous term full srverergnty which did not occur in the Preliminaries, the deviation cer tairrly gives ground to just apprehensions. His fourth division comprehended these points which had been added in the Definitive, And not at all mentioned in the Preliminary Treaty. The most prominent among these was the total non_revi val of all former Treaties. Some - people indeed thought we should gain as enrich as we should lose by this non-revival hilt for his own part he could not see how this could be. He could not apprehend what onerous obligations the nnii-revivaJ of these Treaties released us from, as they had all been made as a barrier against France, and a proteelion to the other Powers. It was only in regard to France that our former Treaties cease, by which means our proteftions are removed and our burdens remain, if we are to consider as such, our connexions with. the other Powers. In such circumstances, why were not all former Treaties rejeled in a •lump ? We ought to have demanded time—time, in fart, was granted us, sufficient to have considered so important an object ; and it surely deserved se rious consideration, whether it would not have been preferable to have made a seleciion of former Treaties, than-to throw them at once aside. Many evils arise from . this non-revival. One it included, of the very first magnitude. Now, that we have renounced all other advantages, those which we retain in the East Indies should be particularly dear to us. Our former policy had been peculiarly ten der on this subje6t : in the Treaty of 1783, we had particularly provided for the security ofourCom merce ; and in 1787, we had acquired additional se curities by a Special Convention—all these securities are now given up. If we inquire, whether we are gainers or losers by this transaction, let us observe the 'degree of importance which our Enemies attached to their former claims. Before the Treaty of r 783, these claims were a subjea of continual litigation ; and even after that Treaty, some new claims were so obstinately persisted in, that we were upon the point of entering into .a War to procure the Con vention of 1787. These claims will now again, of course, be renewed, and the field of battle is the only court where they can he decided. Other rights have also been destroyed by this non-revival, but they disappear, they shrink to nothing before this enormo , ls one mentioned. Such was the cutting of logwood in the Bay of Honduras, to which our sole right arose from Conventions now superseded. The trade on the coast of Africa, and still more our trade to the East Indies, of which the Dutch were always peculiarly jealous, was now deprive'd. of all its securities. He .theo predicted many evils from the non-revival of former Treaties.— He contended that all the dependents of France, being continually protected by her, might be considered as one with herself ; while our Allies had been shamefully deserted by us. • He said, that the provision stipulated for the Prince of. Orange was nugatory, as another Convention had determined that his provision should not take place in Holland, the only 'country to which it could be looked for. He said that we had allowed even our honour to be insulted. A whip had been applied to the posteriors of the Nation, and the seat of honour attacked. The Dutch Flag no longer bow ed to ours. We did not give this up as a free aiti of grace, but as from fear of France. A curious paper that lately appeared in an article from HAland on the Definitive Treaty, strewed how much the Dutch exulted in what he now lamented. A French pa- , per of yesterday had stated almoSt the same grounds, • in resped to Malta particularly, which he had as. serted to be so much in favour of France. . After conjuring the House to attend seriously to these subjects, he concluded with giving notice, that to-morrow fortnight he should move, " That the House do on that.day take . into consideration the Treaty signed at Amiens, between Great Britain, France, Spain,.and the Dutch Repulalic." - • The Motion being put, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, i t was perfedlv proper and becoming on the part of his Right Hon. Friend who had to-night proposed a deviation from the established practice • of the House upon the :;übjee.: of a Definitive. Treaty, and had entered with a minuteness, and particularity into the ground with which he proposed that deviation. He had stated very mi nutely the ground on which he objected to the Treaty of Peace now before the House, and to which, of course, he meant to object to hereafter, in the discussion which he had proposed to take place upon that subjed ; in . this his Right Hon. Friend was right, since he did so °hied. It was not his intention to comment, at this time, on all the topics brought forward by his . Right Hon. Friend ; he did not think it incumbent on him, at this moment, to meet with exatfiness all the points which his Right Hon. Friend had instituted in the present stage of the proceedings, because that would nor, in his opinion, be necessary in the course of his endeavours to satisfy the House that the Motion . of his Right Hon. Friend ought not to be ac ceded to in one particular, and in one only, for he had but one objeCtion to it, and that he should pre sently state to the House. He apprehended he need say but little in vindication of the course pursued, by His Majesty': Government relative to the Treaty of Peace, in not moving any thing upon it them selves. He did not hold it to he consistent with his duty to depart from an established practice in that particular, which pradice did not waria.rpt Motion from Government, in that House, upon the subject of a Definitive Treaty ; he had pursued the usual course, and he trusted the House would ap_ prove it.—Having said this, he would now assure the House he felt great satisfaction at the Motion now made, in substance, because it afforded to His Ma., jesty's Ministers an opportunity of entering into an • explanation, and which he trusted would he accom- . partied by a complete justification of .every part of . their conduct during the late Negotiation at Amiens, and the advice they gave to His Majesty for conclud ing it, as it had been concluded by the Signature and Ratification of the Definitive Treaty now before the House ; for this opportunity he certainly feltJ - .1 obligation .to his Right Hon. Friend, since, without some such Motion as .this, no such opportunity could be afforded. - His Right Hon. Friend had rested his arguments in fav, ur.o: his Motion upon four points : he wished to call the attention of the House to those points, which, though existing at the time of the Signature of the Preliminaries, were not then know° to the House. The first point he conceived to be this, he laid a stress upon it as such, that there were things existing at the time of agreeing to the Preliminaries, which were not known to the House of Commons. He begged the House to recoiled what he had already said, that it was not his in tention to enter with .particularity into all the points made by his Right Honourable Friend ; he should only touch some of them slightly, leaving an ample discussion for them. at a fu.l trite day, but he felt it necessary to SI 3 (CV( 'words on some of the topics [weight forward t 0,.. 'day, to obviate the impression which di e speech a his Right Honourable Friend was celeul ated 10 prof. duce on the minds of some person.:, —His Rigig Hon. Friend had said, that Porto F e rrajo was sur rendered to the French, and he stated t his to be is direst contradiction of the express - stipulations o f the. Treaty of Lmeville. This was an act t hat was not done by His Majesty's Ministers—the surrender of the King of Etruria was a concession made by a Sovereign Power, fully competent t(:) mak e such a concession.—This and many other points he, begged the House to consider he was now onlY mentioning, to spew that he had not past th em over in his a t tent i on to t he Speech of his R;ght 11° ' Friend, but t h a t he did not mean to discuss diem, they being to be reserved for a future day Right Hon. Friend had laid some stress on the French territory in Guiana.—He referred in ibis case to a conversation which took place in that House 0 1 ).- on the subject of the Treaty of Badajos and of the Treaty of Madrid ; it was then stated that the French territory in this part of the globe was t° be limited by the Tr ea ty of Madrid, and not by that ot Badajos, and it was nude a subject of discontent hi some Gentlemen in that House on :hat account, ae d a good deal of stress was laid upon the difference be tween the two, that of Badajos being m ach more faet the Portuguese Government expressed, in favourable to Portugal than that of Madrid, a" ( 1 in the most explicit, that they should think thermcives too fortunate, if we could be instrumental iv prcYzur irig for them, the terms specified, and havieff the boundaries tixt as stipulated by the Treaty 0..-B i, -2- 33 j 0 s• His Right Hon. Friend had said,- that t i -e . French insisted on the Treaty of Madrid, for tl ' e mere purpose of making a merit of giving it It:ft and abandoning that Treaty. The this country, anticipatiag the pressure - f be felt by that country, before the knowledge- .0 the signing the Preliminary Treaty, and the cl t terms cessions likely. to be made in consequence of flits e of agreed u ts r p e , n m h b possessions ttte in of Guiana Badajos, ju pressure, made an express stip u l at i o n that - t he 1 0 , 6 European boundary should be fixed be the Tre3l ', of Madrid. His Right Hon. Friend laid g rea " stress, and very justly, on the estahishment Treatyia slst,ould but hete at the part of France in Louisiana. He had 215° s t f t l i ; that the,FrenchPower would now put into clal l i e. „. o whole of the Continent of South America. Il e t ready- to agree with his Right Hon. Friend , raa the interests of Europe are materially ii eonne tle a with the interests of America, both North 313 South ; but his Right Hon. Friend could n ot 535 :' that if the French had not the extent of Te tl i t°„ . if there which they -now possess, they could not,.i t St. Domingo were tranquil, - and affairs at rest wi t them in that quarter, by a large military focc e come formidable to either North or South Anseri/ provided the subjeds of these States were dispos_„7 to offer to them no resistance, aixl had no inctinatTe Britain and the rest of theluroi to maintain their independence, and provided Gl e ba indifferent spectators of the scene. Certainly tto acquisition of Louisiana was very importO t re ; France, and would certainly be looked on witt. t e j, • teem States were r e o. gret by those who wished their dominion lirf' ll j o e but that was no conclusive argument VI th e tstatedilatb thisy Rightphoisssession will Hon.g k L e .6l. i F ve rie d i l t e d in ui t s i o le n that s ° i li stated over the whole of that part of the gli°,ll.. pc~t'er It ci.gd, Another paint had been stated by his Peiga es '' Friend, as one on which he conceived the oi o r he had made was to be justified ; which Wa s ' ilio ef new matter had arisen upon, and new circums` c o f had attended the State of Parties since tile t ' in hicil signing the Preliminaries. Not only thtn existed, but were not known to us at the time 01 s . oe e ing the Treaty, but many- things had appear ed , p s a l ,loi which did not exist at that time. Upon this L - e a to observation, his Right Hon. Friend had tee ut : - oo se the state of the Italian Republic, arta th e "Witli ment which had beer sent to St. Donsing°' i d 0 _ regard to the first, he could only say, COu t hose be otherwise - than regarded with ar , 'Ysierir 0 , 11 6 who thought the power of France too great, (I f t he felt, as men least feel for the independenq e rest of Europe, anti by none more was that s„, fof merit felt, titan by those who had a pure alle 6ii° '; ii he' the intex , ests of their County but the matter back again to the cons ideration Preliminaries of Peace, the principle of will ( ' i g i g lig liament had at least recognized. Dia. f t he Hon. Friend mean to say that the ren ewal ° e hal t -War would have been a measure proper to ha v , he to recourse to, on account of the objets .ehica adverted as having taken place between the siesg og i °j de the Preliminaries and the conclusion of the m e • ht rive Treaty ? He believed nor, and if ll's fideilr Hon. Friend thought otherwise,' he was e cn/ . 05 of , 11 the good sense of the House and the f{ - i5 . . . .„Ihe . would go in a contrary a;rctl-1 ~He thought so, but he might be mtstakell.,_ c E pe Right Hon. Friend had said, that .sotne 01 0 currences between the Preliminaries and her t" nitive Treaty were such as would, at any °,.,t that than the present, have roused all Europe. the se it might, the fact was that aflEurope sat still a , no r events, The different States of Europe, t_ e d t he-, appear to be alarmed, but they had saatiorifriersi .very proceedings of which his Right He n ' 0; 0 " Mr. A °P . complained so intich ; upon which a j u st said he made no comment, buts wa s 4:14 fication to His Majesty's Ministers for not ll' °t ip. the Neg these points a plea for the rupture of 1-10 lion ffna •t he , renewal of the War. His Rill) great Friend. had laid great stress tos-night, stress had been laid within these few hip• pool the sailing of the Armament for n a tter' the „,e this . Now, upon considering the- whole o f oking all the circumstances that belonged i 0 it, re allf at it in all its beanngs, l ie shot:Too,ing to like to ask.every intelligent, unbiass„rs sa this country, whether this Armament arw In oinsijerhigi was really matter of regret to us ?st this subjed, the whole state of the jew. ,..1 - ic Islands would immediately come in to v isa lo)k: was unwilling to dwell upon this matter),"' he evo loved 111 •jual confident that, whether they were v of i oivi . 06 ing at the state of the West India 'sl ai ' s ' a 113' rional way, or upon the narrower Itch, w urpa tt • se nt roe interest, it would be mend-est foo nt ll ' of the Black Government was the 030)1.