The Sun. — London, England, 1813-06-01 00:00:00

. ra i ;tit. ~~4.~ i rtl ti!fi i).' . . . , . .. 1 " 11 0,.lect they r e d uc ed the natives to fretiiy I 'l dcipair ! In India some of the cotton pro= . Iced wes prepared by bard labour, in a manner iifierent• from that prepared any where else. It ottlil he so prepared in India alone, o n account 11 the low price of labour in that country. That lOttOli so prepared, if brought here, avonld com rasnl a higher price than any which had ever ap— Peared ia this country, and our cotton-weavers ~,uld be able to pr o d uce suc h y arn as h a d never Jeeti produced yet. From the superiority of the alachiaery of _this country, we could supply India ih spite of the difference between the price of la bour thete and here (labour being there paid at th e rate ec two-pence per day), with spun yarn at ,i6oht half th e pr i ce which it at present cost them, ' l ''ough cotton were assumed to be only 3d. per lb. •'here, and i n E ng l and 2s. 6,1. In proof of this, # 't ipmed the evidence of Mr. Lee, of Man '''p'eter, a Gentleman who was not one of those algeine spendatora 'of whom they had heard much, who wens not a mere theorist„but a prac 'cal man. That the tine cotton of which he had r)kel i had never carne into competition. with i't Georgian wool ; he accounted for from this cir i/mstance—GeOrgia had enjoyed a free trade-- had b ee n oppressed by a monopoly. But fee this they would' not now have beard of the p r acticability of producing the finest cotton, il rOnl I ndia. If advantage: like those to which he Pet( for Ward were - to be derived from a free t ra p. lle tl India, be wished to know what advan ea,",:hvete to be scented to the people of this ,,-;4lrY, by way of compensation, if this trade car tied thalied t o them ? The trade to India, as car ti,,,l l ',‘ ll l th e Company, had been a losing trade, re„,',g' t e nt to China was successful. 'The re- . ot 1 "„ af India bail been said• to amount to 16 tri m ' 4) ;000 of money. - He could not conceive c ol, t it Ivan in the preSent system which made the Posl ; l1 Y. with revenues so immense at their dis -11(:d,:„.11")InPetent to fulfil. their engagements.--- tu t , ."' te d whether the affairs.of India were heat toil to a monopoly. Most writers on po.li , til.. economy bud censured monopolies as inau -I,,iiutt.o the countries whic , . maintained then). lie h O , O l ' t o ask the advocates for the East India mo itt!'t r ?' i .t the speech of Lord Grenville on this sub -1 ',as that of a theorist ? lie thought of a phi -431111er ata ttin . 3 a politieat economist, and a practical 1)4 4 . L ' 4 ". In this speech the inconsistencies of the v at s l , l ` qsetn were' strongly pointed out, and it it . v limn of what jarring and . conflict elements ~`(t!s_ composed. The arrangement now, pro- L i T os t he had complained of, as going to make it e 2 l sable for the 1 - 4;nglish Merchant to enter into . I ; l4l 4 4 . eti T tiot. with Foreigners,' or with 'the Com faerl, he C4 mTany, or those connected with ta,„„ ;.,hen speaking on this subject, held lan %tar ' l, te this--." thty" (the private Merchants) I, _, teiliter into competition with Os, will they ? p".ti _llcm—we'll soon give them enough of it." I :_e i twat% er, was not afro id, if the Merchants tre once admitted to a fair competition ; Pradence . management anc their Company ; but if the I'Le(11"" Company chose to carry .. would defeat on a ruinous trade for the purp - pose 'V their rivals, they might . ,and he at of it ' saw nothing in the plan of the dr-i,:ea?iy getting rid 'able Lord that Merchants gave tiny security against this. . 0 1 ,1' . 1 . 10 ine.ana wished to speak dtsrespectful 'On ' thr P ire.et OrS Or the List India 'Cinn . y e i or of the great body 'of the . Company - . but `e wild not help observing, that in what fell Mat them, he Often perceived the spirit which Iglu I . )e F)ok e d f or in monopolists, hut not from verce, " • ens. The increasing price of the produce t India come„e,,_,,quent upon a free trade, they tlepre kb_Tsan evil, though it vvai.ntivantageous to their 4.11(i/e,,lt He'thought this a subject for rejoicing ; to t ti i ro i a v t th ey aia a not was a powerful arginnent Nod or e ', t hat they were not so anxious for the be „,`ti)ose under them as i,overeigns ought to ~,l ii4ilti , heir . ideas,, however, though not what ever, he loolici for in "the Sovereigns of India, Le a d ei ? li isterit in British Merchants. It Was in th at .rt - street and: not in •Downing-street, "(I i a t 1 ,', 1 . 1 ,., 6 1; off in the Revenue was anticipated; net i ll 4 i 's among the, despotic lords of Asia, and 11 1 1 '"at House, ,that alarm was first felt for e f.ally t l 'igl it " e rs with which a change .in the trade 'entvia i l i lle naee the British Constitution. He was .4 ,tat t ,‘ d ,g to notice smuggling, as that would be t "aa li e "hy Gentlem e n more acquaint e d with it. e ' ct e l l4, l l /a5 , but he would wish to see eommerce ,;, 4 tethi ol " lunch as it could be, and trust to that 'he 0! °f trade for an increase of revenue. 144 'c *lleill ties of making a change in coin ,.thta i n , w ere generally greater in apprehension " .1, e,, t h' e Ality, and be sipluld not be surprised, I lea w er e trittle to'l,ndia ; China, and South Attie 4ti ex t .: thrown open, if there should be so great ki ler a b li , l s.l °n of trade, as even to benefit very con 4liteti, 1 t he Port of London. But in a question tile g i, , g, the inhabitants of' so large; a poition of '4 % ) e. tl , ~ litty , ' Icy ought not to put the petty chtiins. .1 1 1' " I t wtaimt the interests of an Empire, the "et t.• ' - ‘,,(441. f elo ns of the city orLondon against the I ,'Ll'es. e i ) i f so many millions of their fellow crea- It 'ith ~ 'e hoped they would no more be deterred ,rthoiLetlitig the trade to India, by the petitions I .+:4t , IntereSted in the continuance of the pre "to,',,,h'te,in, than they had. been deterred by the the 317 51°11 8 Of the slave dealers from-abolishing th a vetrad . t.! (a, L. With respect to the duration of Whet' al ler, he wished to he it to the Noble Lord !:,z,yr,nilrtor not, it would he desirable to extend it i v ,„ en years. , - ) / , ,14 1. 1 ; h(i.paay'r, sen. said, of all the questions 'liat, , '". ever been discussed, this was perhaps Its, v 'eli from want of prepos knowledge and, ti Ilq, biAl 1 1 of • -er11 % ,, N. ` e( those out doors who thought t;11,.e i n terested in it, into the greatest mis lkis th et was but recently, from the exaggerated t il ..y had formed. that India was hooked to gli nts!ha t ii n t r i l i ze .an immense mart for British flier ittnenii_ .„). winch would make our manufacturers length he r. s i /or all they had suffered in a twenty years ,1114 t t h e. t perceived with satisfaction r. illuii o a ed, an 1 Iv Were in a great degree dissi ' that the most sanguine speculators no user look e d t . m at ~. 0 India as furnishing the means i)nd s Lrvolei.iy extending the market for British i., ) , Twit+, ...., , errite ry, mentioned to t h e C ompany's cla i ms , pee t i,, wic as. th e i r property, entioned in the a ii}eak,,, , , , Bleb =had b een re f erred to hy: the last 1',t!,0,i,,11, ,'d le would ob serve, t h at theirindian pos- Aicts `"'„ furl' " been acquired und er t h e sanc ti on o f ` lanletit,o with the treasure of the ki. 11^ ,ny ,r ed. ;,~ !~y +•~~ }~:.~ GY eir 4 , . tonsisait'?, at their own COrt \ and The right' of tu East India Ctimpany to theM had Been so far recognised ass to be left for future decision ; and this wAs a qUestion which lie thought of ht to be decided, not in that House, but in-the Courts of Law. no, was surprised to find opinions. expressed in that high quarter which had been referred to of such a na ture, that though they were -Maintained thirty or forty.years ago, they grad been thought in nt.) *aY justifiable in later years. To prove this, he went on to spew, that withoor the interference of Go vernmeot, a system of laws had been established by which the administration of impartial justice Was secured in India. It was said, that the Company, to support their character as sovereigns, had boa rowed money to carry on their commerce. denied that such .a circumstance occurred at any- - time within the last nineteen years. Having re plied to various other arguments which had been used against the Company, he noticed the charge preferred ag ainst them of receiving-their territorial revenues inkind. This was not theirpractice. From the East to the West, over the whole surfabe of their possessions, he knew but of one instance of it, and that was in the article of cotton. Tills was con. , fined to one small district, the Company had found this to be the established and ancient practice,and there, as was agreeable to the in ,habitaitts, they had 'allowed it to continue. With 1, respect to the purchases made of the people, he contended, their goods were botizht at an equi table price ; the natives were satisfit'd, and he bud' heard of no complaints on the subject except from' a few interested cotton merchiuts. As to what had been said of the supply of fine cottons to be obtained froM India, the Company were ready to co-operate with Government iii„,any thing which . could make the produce of India serviceable to this country. This cotton, however, was invariably only called for in war, and therefore it was im possible to put it fairly in competition with the .Georgian.wool. No good .could be done in this respect, unless -the arrangement were made per manent; If it were cafled for one . or two years, great speculations would be entered into in India. for raising cotton ; and if' the Georgian cotton should then furnish a supply, so that them-should no longer be a call for.thist raised in Indict, those who had engaged in such speculations must be ruined. If India were called upon to furnish - Co-ton and Hemp when' we Were 'at war with America and Russia, and could no longer find a - market for her commodities, when their ports. were opened to us again, it was vain to expect a supply when it was wanted. It had ..been said, that we could supply India .with spun-yarn ; but so many lived in India by spinning it, that to in , troduce it' from England woold be to ruin the whole mass of the:population. He denied that the India trade, as carrie&on by the Company, had been uniformly a losing trade, and had no doubt that it Would be seen, if the proofs' were gone into, that the Company bad gain ed more by it than the private merchants, — The South American trade, which had been mentioned in the discussions on that subject, he wa's Of opinion was not likely to be profitable to us if thrown open, and such as it was, it was ' not likely to be thrown open by the Government of South Anierica.. It was not prof able that. merchants or Mir .could find, employ here. It was said of the Company, eotwithstatuliog their' good government, that they were *actuated by a commercial spirit, because they refused to admit an unlimited nuniber of British merchants into all parts of India. He begged to say, that this mea sure bad been adopted with something higher thari a commercial view. The last speaker asked, Was . it fOr Parliament to attend to the representations of 'a petty port, Where the fate of an. empire was to be decided ? They would say with him, that it was the duty of Parliament to attend to the Mil lions whose fate Was in their hands ; and it was for their good that he opposed the change pro posed, convinced as he was, the present system was essential to their security'. ..Nlr..PutLies in explanation; read a letter to prove, that 'Supplying India with spun yarn would not prove injurious to the population of the coon- try, as a greater nnniberof hands wouldbe employ ed in preparing-the cotton by hand labour, to an- • sWer the deinund which there 'won't' be for it. in this country, than- were at; present occupied in spinning it. MI% CANNING agreed with the last speaker, • that of all the questions which had ever conic be fore Parliament, this was perhaps that which had caused -rile greatest exagerations in all the argu ments used in discussing-it out of doors ; but he could not think ' as the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Grant) appeared; to do, that . till the extig geration had been confined to one side. He ad mitted the glowing colours in which the imagina tion. of the people had adorned the prospects which, they. anticipated a free trade to India would open to th.em, required what they had already eXperienc cd, and , what they wo u ld feel still more befOre these discussions were closed, that discouragement. which enabled them to take a more sober and c hastened view of the subject, which brotight their hopes within a more reasonable compass ; and he thought it one great duty of that House and of the other, as it would be most advantage ous to all concerned, to lop off' those excrescences from the tree, which were barren and useless, that that which they established as their system might be productive and sound ; that they Might come to an ultimate decision on this awful subject, if not of one mind, at least with thesatisfaction of know ing that they had thrown much out o f them. which had embarrassed the question, and which had influenced the minds of those whose interests were affected by it, But he could not admit that , it was in the sanguine views Of those who wished for a free trade to the East Indies that much-exaggeration had been-found; and if, up to this night, he bad thought the interests of the Country required th 4 the East India . Company should retain all the power . and influence which it at present possessed, had such been his feeling up to -that night, he c)uld not but confess that in the speech of the-1100-liireetor, an d i n t h :tt speech, of which he might well be proud, which had been made by onpthee Member of that HOuse, there was enough : to show Trim : that whatever de cision the House ' might ultimately come to, it would at least he propety.t.aeoi.a the complete -ladoptioA of their -ikvvo,„6 nu4 acessary for Li nt; and le any Min airy thing like. anialoSity_ taAvitialt the'-East India Conipady. He ciauld not think that jay one nrotild entertain a Spirit of eOrporatiuti. entnity towards .then t. But when they claiuied th , .i right of be-, ing,Sovereigns iii India„ and f:;:kl.t.l the question Of how far the territories They held we .re their owq property, to- be one too delieate to be eta.• terteined by that House, he . must lay. that 'that. Was a view-of the subject into wi.ich lie . could not enter., He could not but feel, that Wherever Bri tish subjects acquired territory, (no matter by what iheam - s)they were still subject to ,the controtii of that paramount authority which presided over that. .acieiety to which they belonged. He could not l ace why they should not now proceed in regulat ing the affairs of India, as : they would priced in nuking any ordinary colOnial arrangement. Flan,' the anomalotts character of our. Indian posses sions, front the manner in. which they had been acquired, and from other circumstances, he ad mitted that it might be. wise to give a sane , tion to the sovereign power they, exercised; but this was merely a question sif expediency, and they were indeed but little advanced in their in quirks into this subject, if they could doubt whether it was expedleacy or right that could drive the hand of ParliaMent from the terra-. . toriat'possessions of the Company iu India. He edmitted it might be proper this anomaly should continue, but that it was that which under any cir camstances should he maintained, he was not pre pared to contend. Because it was that which musti be maintained, ex necessitate red, it did not .follow that it was that of which they ought to be proud. He begged distinctly to say, that he was uphold ing thqsovereignty of the Company, but not its right tb hold web sovereipty. Tle could not re cogniSe the right, hut he could confess the expe diency, still contending that if Pin liament thought fit to-morrow to take the sovereignty from them, they were fully competent to do so. li i rout hear ing. the speeches of that night, he thought the , trading community might ask if the Company had made themselves sovereigns of an independent .empire ? This answered, they might put another question, and say, if you are an independant wive reign; arc you net an amicable one ? It not a de pendant, are you not an ally ? We should take it • bard of any independent sovereign;of the Autocrat of Russia, or of the Emperor of China, we should think it a littic.nngracious if they were to say, as they might, " You shall not trade with my em pire ;" but what would be thought, if they went on to say--;." and we will not trade . crith you, be 'cause you are a set of piratical ragamuffins, who, ,if once admitted, will proceed to lay our villages in blood, and. carry off oar children; you tome here stained with a vile traffic, which you carried on for centuries without shame, and did not at' laiit give it up withont 'a struggle." This would be taken unkindly from any iiidependant sovereign, but -vvhat shall we say to it, wl.en it. comes, out from a Prince of the House of Timour, but from one of the Princes ofziSia, a trader in Leadenhall street ? Would it be believed that those who owed their all to trade, would teet thus by their bro thers.? Surely, it the prayer of the traders Must ne cessarily be rejected, it might have been done in - milder tern's. • Fortunately these Sovereigns had arolitbe rigba and the power. Me right did not exist, and the power could not be esereised.•:- . - These Lords of Aaia must be subjected to, the Bri tish and he hoped, ere long they would- he made, to -acknowledge how much they had exaggerated their rights. Those -territories obtained-by British industry, held by British arms, and purchased by British hood, belonged to Eng land. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Grant, jun.). had unnecessarily brought forward the Slave Trade •on this occasion. Wishing to avoid all ir ritation on this subject, what had the slave trade to do with the traders of the out-ports ? Was the guilt of that traffic, that was secured by the Treaty of Utrecht, which was avowed as the ground of their policy, and as the fruits of the triumphs Of their arms, which as such bud been defended, when lie through whom it was done away, and who in procuring its abolition had by that great work gained an immortality. Was a trade thus engrafted on the system, thus encouraged, and thus for . a long time annually re-enacted, to be. resisted by one set of men, who were merely the agents • who carried it on ?—were they thus to shift the guilt of the country to one set of • men, to :relieve the nation front its load " of guilf . ; at the expence of those who 'were innocent Of • its progress, yet who were • the - only sufferers by its abolition ? lie would not treat this odious traffic as being less black than it really'was, but why, he would ask, should Gentlemen unnecessarily mix this with any other great national cpiestion which might come before, Parliament ? The'lton. Gentleman had told them of the immutability of the Indian Empire ; that it had remained unchanged for three thousatid years, and after a lapse, of ages it was still the same in its manners, agriculture and appear ance. It had been said that there was i . nitch ex aggeration in this question. tie knew of no greater exaggeration than this picture of im mutability. A nation, whose whole internal econoitny, - whose ferm of Government, whOSe modes of jtirisdietion, and whose political system hint been entirely altered, and which furnished 150,000 soldiers tai -fight under Christians and yet to 'talk of its immutability !. He would a s: e 7 cdt t ep l a i r n oN t cre t i te h ild e iti i m ' g e es t C y woi c :l l )c i pa t i l t n ity g h u eg e al‘i t: eo f :i t . h ( ez n o tl t e v i t l,en actio ns co proved that every thing had been changed in the territorial, jur:•ii cal; and military situation iii India. Anti it kV•ti not likely that :t; people who had submitted to conversion so great, would nut be aecessible, to other improvementa, not tvm,tinhe to be Gci nver,v :to purchase broad-cloth that they would not evert receive it in presents. This, however, was reach ed by so many, WittIOSCS, and of so much infarma tint, and respeetability, that it nips be Convinced that they believed the titet to b nipsas they stated, and that they cons . eyed India to lac iinpertetrcilt'.e to ftamthcr ialiontel,itrait)iprtatisreispfe he_ deniers this ther:efore~, it tone to these witnesses, but from a respect. to the in credibility of the fart. He chef not mean to say that .thajraflie to India would satisfy all that eu , Thl4 desire, nor ought it ; but he et•)n sidered it to ,be Op indisputable right of British 40(1011 not. to be e;chhivd from that which fu- • reigUeii inJOYect. Whey aiig tt not tci iie lip iii worse Condition then the Amerienti, or than eVed. whit Was calleii the second-chop English inJridiii: Tletse.were arguthents that were not to 1 e . ll ren:." cd to, Find cren should the adventurers 'tail all id the. firstyeiir, such reasoning ought not to he a bar to their being tried. With respect to another` • objection, very strenuously u rged, ad to the clan» ger of an indiscriminate . influx of EeropeanS into India, he would aSki belly it WilS, positlie that the introduction of a few British &mid create.so Mitch . Mischief.; coned so sviarh and mihtnte,agaiiist that which was so. firmly establiAied ? ininintable Empire Which the l'tpse of so mativ tent itries had not changed; eras surely not So condiestible isi td be razed iii cOuiliyrßtioo, or thrown hp in tit.: plo - ,cni against those from sOioth it liktd deriVed SO many blessings, by a few peddling traders; With packs of scissors or spectacles tin'their hacks was satisfied-that in the present state of Etttdpe; Parliament could not srty the trade of India ought to he sealed against British Adventure. At the same time he was free to, allow that the tradri permitted to enter into this intercourse Should he -guardetLs..with .Caution, hay Nilith after What he had heard avoWed this night by the Hon.,Gentlemao opposite; he would also add that equal guards-otight to he imposed to secure their liberty among .these . independent Sovereigns of What these guards should be, *mild come better to be discussed hereafter, when they enter= ed more into detail ; but the general principle was now to be disposed of between those who con tended that the Company should remain .divested of all the privileges they now enjoyed, and those Who held that not a feather should be plucked from the wing of their sovereignty. It was a • question of expediency. Parliament had to modi ,, fy these conflicting opinions ; and 'though the tusk was di ffi cult, it was riot. stf Much so as to in duce them to shrink from•their duty. In his opi, Dion it was expedient that the power should re main with the Company ; and he avowed, that though 'the evidence produced before the Com , Mittee had failed in carrying conviction to his mind oit some points to which it was addressed, it had convinced him that the system could nut be bads.--i must be good, which produced and nurtured sci many able, intelligent men, of the most states inenlike views of practical utility and the soundeSt judgments—men who promised a race calculated to uphold British. glory in India, provided they did not degenerate into the principle of exclusion. By the labours of persons of this description the . . independence of Britain and the happiness of India wouldbe fat ever insured. Mr. C. GRANT, Mr, CANNING, and Mr. C. GRANT, jun. mutually explained. Mr. PO N.SONBY agreed w:th the mode of pro , ceeding recount:fended by Lord Castlereagh, and Ahought the hrSt proposition should be voted sub sc:quent.to theothers, the examination. into which would much tend to elucidate its genesel' bearing. Übe Must,' however, decide .on the first propos' . sition to-night, and to decide on the principle trikem ther the dovernment of India should remain as it .was, or undergo alteration, he was disposed to vote that the Government of Indict should not re- main in the.state it was. They were told that this Government had sprung froth necessity, from •ehanac and Contingencietfrom time to time, which no ;human foresi4ht could anticipitte Were they then to render permanent that system which grew out of such circumstances ? Thoy were also told. that all oppressions and grievances formerly complained of had beer) rectified. Hew ish— ed to impute blame neither to those who directed the Company's affairsabroad or at home, but he 'must deny the historical truth of the fact that the . India Company were the reformers of these' abuses., It wits the great men in that House who had brought about the desirable event. One who now. rested in the lap of :earth, Mr. Burke, was the person . filto must be reckoned the saviour of India, though he did not live to see his labours brought to a close. To his talents and industry . did India and thiS country owe the obligation.; its the Catholics of Ireland would be indebted to the exertions of hiS Right .119». Friend (Mr. Grat- . tan) whenever .the .day should - come which re 'stored them" to liberty. It was not the India Company who bad redressed the injured, nor was it in.the nature of things—for monopolists never healed grievances which arose oat of their own systeM of monopoly. With regard to the business before them, the first qttestion they had to con sider was, what 'Government was fittest to pro 'mote the happineSs, pr,nperity, and wealth of India, and, through India, of this country. The qttestion of the higheSt . moment involved in this was, how they could transfer the 'Governmeut -front the. Company to the Crown ? This he would do at once, could he be satisfied ahat it might be accompliShed without increasing, by the patron .age and power it gave, the prerogative of the Crown in a degree dangerous to the liberties of the .subject. But Gentlemen not only called on them to establish the,indian Government, hut to do so from admiration of its excellence. Now, what would be said of the man who would pi;o pm;e a similar torm of Government for the first time for every other of our colonies Would he pot he thought fitter for another room' than fwe tiiis? As for what was said of the Lunnutability of the manners and habitsof the natives of boil, he was midy to admit - it to a cevtain extent - , tar the form cf the government 'lnd religion al‘vays Or rated in a certain degree on man;iind.; flt denied drat they had c h ange d the nature and ti.l-..en i.;w:ay ell WA pr , , , jwiices Irwaa iierhAps true also, t10411)..c interento ,, ‘ should 'he' regulate" into tilt 110: - entc' ' he bee„ Master ' 4 f t t lt " trt. Atave coritittuecl th e. Government of,lnaia for six or.seven 'years its it ttoori, to try the experiment of the rew to it decision Which should make c ie t ' itle c t ' i ' •;ll ll C"ib te le L l ; l n e d c ;( 9 4 rc iS t il l e m re t a s g e h e ) l3 e n x -w el il itet at l i r t i h n e " .tratlers from China, .While, he permitted them tta approach India. wits'Tint -treclible • that , therti was any great danger of offending the Chines • Governineitt—for how could it be more dangc . rol3s to admit the British than to admit Amtnitqui'•i It Ive.A diAt if this •Were * 811 - 0* 04* it "'.)tl!t' enibk tilt vessels to smuggle tea tiliftr the Ea-st ern Islands, and undersell the Comptiny in Eu rope. Why were they the only people to be ex.