The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS, THURSDAY, DEC. 9. Tun Duke of BEDFORD was sworn, and took his Seat, on Lis accession to the Peerage by the demise of the late Duke. The Maiquis Of BUCKINGHAM and Lord- Sosia-itviLLE were also sworn, and took their Seats. _... The third reading of the Small Notes Bill,was again post poned. The Chester Road Bi:1 was read a second time, and some other private business disposed of; after which the House adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY, DEC. 9. A Petition was presented from the Clothiers of Wells, in Somersetshire, praying for the Repeal of certain Regulations in their Trade. It was ordered to lie on the Table; and Mr. VANSITTART gave notice of his intention to move for the Repeal of these obnoxious ClaUses. • Mr. AGNEW, in whose name a Petition was pre sented against the Eleetion for Bridgewater, not having entered into the Recognizances required by the Ad, the Petition was ordered to be with drawn: 'A new Writ was ordered for the EleEtion 'of a Member to serve for Lymington, in the room of General BUR RARD, who, since his eleftion, had ac cepted the Chiltern I lundreds. The House went through the Committees on the Malt, Mum, Cyder, and Perry Duty Bill, the Places and Pensiiins Duty Bill, and the Exchequer Bills Bill, all oEwhich were ordered to be reported tp-morrow. The Irish Militia Bill was read a third time, and passed: • Mr. VANS ITTART moved:" That there be laid before the House an iNeediint of the .Money Pay ments - rnale to His•M.ilesty:s ilottselibid, and not . provided for ,by Parliament."—Agreed ro. . The Navy Bills -Bill was- read a second time, and committed for to-morrow.. Mr. At..EANDEIt brought ❑p the Report of the Qualification Indemnity,Bill.—Which was ordered to he read a third rune to-morrow.. The English rind Irish Grain Export Bill was read a first time, and ordered to' be read a second time to-morrow. . Mr. CURRY obtained leave to bring in a. Bill for reducing into one, all the Laws relating to the Militia in Ireland. ARMY ESTIMATES. .Mr. ALEXANDER having. brought up the Report of the Committee's Resolutions . of last night, The Right lion.7'. G RENVILLE rose.—He said, that after the House had been fatigued by their long attendance on this discussion last night, and know_ ing, as they all did, the reludance Gentlemen had to hearing speeches of any length, after having been already so' much wearied, though a sense of duty ‘ might have inclined him to take an 'enlarged and comprehensive view of this important subjed, he would not add, unnecessarily, 'to their fatigue this day, by detaining them for any length of time; but confine himself simply. to his view of the Report. With this design he would first beg leave to recall their attention to the grounds he submitted for the House-not agreeing to vote so,ooo Seameli without any of those reasons having been given form with which it had been usual to acquaint Parliament upon all former occasions; and he must say that he was not a little surprised when he heard a Noble LOrd (HAwNEsßuitY) assert, in broad and confidential 'terms, that there . was nothing in it unusual in the course of-Parliamentary proceedings. He considered that speeCh at the time, as a complete and unqualified contradilion, and bore it in silence, as he had not then an opportunity of reply. The,same objections, however, which he made upon thatoccasion, applied at present in nearly the same degree. When he first made these objections to the Navy Estimates, he was referred to the Speeches of Ministers in that Horse on the opening of- the Session ; but these Speeches afforded no sort of satisfy Cory informa tion, and even if they had, he was not, constitution ' ally, to consider them as sound and regular Parlia mentary Documents. On occasions Of that kind, he admitted that the Speeches of Ministers were eAti tled•to a degree of weight ; but before agreeing in tht'-, Vote, he was • bound to require fuller Par liamentary evidence, more substantial Documents. He was bow prepared ( to maintain., that there was noinstance, When, after the signing of a Definitive Treaty of Peace, the Ministers thernselves.had not advised His Majesty to afford information from the Throne, whether there were more probable grounds in favdur of its being maintained, or more danger of its rupture. So far were these kinds . of • infor mation from being withheld, that it was, on many` occasions, the custom to afford them in considerable detail. The House need not be alarmed; his in tention %vas not to run them through all the range of precedents which might be found in support of his assertion, but he was ready to challenge the industry of any other Gentleman to produce a single precedent against him. The most convenient pe riods, and that coul I with-mtst ease he referred to, were the communications- after- the Treaties of Utrecht, kyswick, Aix-la.-Chapelle, and those of '1763 and 1783. In :het,tirst communication which. George I. made to his Parliament, after his acces sion on the death of Queen Anne, he announced-the Treaty of Utrecht; she. Monarch tells them, 41, it is with great: concern he must add, that some considerations, essential ,to the interests and trade of Great Britain had nor been .yet performed, and may be considered as precarious until Foreign Alliances could be contraded to guarantee them." In 17+8 the King acquainted his Parlia ment that " this Country had reason to' exped the enjoyment of the Blessings, of Peace;" in '1763 he told them " that the continuance of Peace was like ly to depend upon themown dispositions ;" and in 1783 his language was, ",that Foreign Powers professed the dispoSition to concur with him in his wishes for the long enjoyment of Peace." No instance', in fad,' was to he found in which sound strong Parliamentary.documents had not been given. If asked the reason' . why be continued to urge. this argument against the Ministers, he'wOuld-ny it was because those who concurred with him in opi_ non had been accused of speaking one way and giving their_ votes ; another. Would it be denied that he stocd upon firm ConstitUtional Ground Did not , the King's Herald publicly declare War at Temple Bar, and was it not then a matter of general notoriety ? But Constitutional Reasons also' required that it should be communicated in a formal, Message to the Parliament. It was not sufficient for 'them that - it might be received through - some other channel, or proclaimed in the. Monitelar and theStaN, their source of. information'must be more authentic. The Speech froma heThrone is to the Hotise a substan tial document a and a pledge,and gave Members an op : portunity from time to time of asking the Mini'Siers whether the Votes they Called for, or the Measures they we're pursuing, were consistent with the lan guage of the Speech ? This was not a fadious, gem. lous a _or _quibbling Opposition, but one which stocd up against a precedent, which, if suffered to pass un noticed,. might be indeed of a very dangertitai-na cure. Every one must know, 'that Military Esta blishments were meant for Military, ,Purposes, and to judge of the necessary numbers to be kept up, die , House should know what Garrisons it has to furnish, l and then also how the Troops are to be . applied. a -L-a By the Treaty of Amieni . , we had agreed to give up the Cape of Good }lope, and the Island of. Malta. All we knew was, that the latter was still retained. Report also :wired, that diredions had been sent off to the Cape of Good Hope, to retain" that - Settlement ' if it should not be given up before the arrival of the orders. • The House ought certainly to be told,. whether these Garrisons were or were not intended to'cOnstitute a part of our' Establishment. He had himself, more, than once, isut that question to the Ministers, , but .in vain, for the answer was con: scantly evaded. Having said thus muchf,Atpon cola lateral topics - , he would next come to the Vote now, under consideration ; ,and in doing it, must declare, that he never _knew .of ani,subjed. opened in a. more able, clear, and manly manner, than the present Motion had been by- tile-Right Hon. the SECRE TARY at WAR.: In saying this, he did 'not Wish TO be understood, as paying a complinient, but - as ex .pressing what Was his sincere opinion. 'Yet, with all this prejudice in favour of, .theSPeech, ,and his wishes to keep up a large Establishment;- there was something at the close of that Statement,' which; did not, by any means, correspond or tallaf:Avith his sentiments. The Right Hon. Gentleniaayafter de : precating all irritliiing language, zind Yi-cvocation to hostility, declared the sore objefts of increased Establishment to be—s" to repel all National In suks, and all Hostile Aggression." He certainly could have no objet ion to this use being made Of our increased Force, as . fata• as it went. But were the use confined • and limited to these two objects, we had nothing more to expel} than our own simple defence, against any possible attack.. That must in.. deed greatly narrow the effeft of such a force, nor could he easily be made sensible of the, good p'- Hey in this House, -of voting r3o,ooo'Soldiers,-an'd .50,000 Sailors; merely to sit still - till the alual landing of the _French, when they would be pre pared to resist an actual Invasion. Yet this idea seemed to he adopted' by an Honourable Gentleman last night (Mr. SHERIDAN), in 'an eloquent, able, and immdurous speelt, which justly appeared to make'a considerable impression. Was so great a Force, then, necessarily to be confined by this Country to that single object cry of hear! hear!] He was glad, he said, to observe this cheer from the" other side of the House, as he thought himself justified in inferring chit the observation he alluded to in the Secretary at War's Speech, Was c6nstrued by the Ministers to have a greater latitude of .interpretatiOn, He was happy to anticipate that it would enable and encourage the British Government speak with . a greater degree of authority in Europe. }le was not one of those, if there were any such, who would wish them to begin by giving or provoking insult, but he was desirous that their tone should be such as might be produnive of effect. Fnr this, the Ministers were, bound to that House and to the Public, they were bound by their own Amendment to an Address, declaring--- ' that they would resist any encroachments on the sources of the Maritime Wealth and Security of this Country.' It gave him pleasure to find that the signification of the words to which he referred was .more inclusive than he at first apprehended, though he believed that in a more limited sense it would have afforded more satisfaaion to several Gentlemen on the same side of the House with ,himself. The House had heard a great deal on the subjed of Con tinental Alliances, and the disadvantages which in the opinions of a few at least they had generally, if not always, 'been produdiVe of to this Country. I They would all, however, do well to consider, that if there was any great Power in Europe disposedit this time to enter into an alliance with us, the first thing which that Power would do would be to look at the state of Great Britain, and weigh the probable advantages of such 'Alliance. What inducement could any guch. Power have to en gage in it, if it saw our force and means limited solely to the defence of our own Island, and inca pable of any degree of farther co-operation ? But it was nugatory to argue generally, afterthe House had last night heard so much about positive declara tions. That Mr. WILBERFORCE should now re peat his dodrines, and IVIr. WHITBREAD re-echo his observations, created in him no astonishment,. bet he was really surprised to haveobserved them supported by others whose views might be supposed rather more comprehensive. He had heard a Gentle man triumphantly, on a former occasion;put the case . of a poor peasant, famishing in the midst of his family, immured in a bare cottage, and ask what, consolation it. would be to hirn'to say—" You niay now make yourself happy, for - the ballance of .Power is secured." But however strong this case may . appeao at first view, it was however capable of a fair English construction, for, it must afford con solatioo to any man, however low his state, to think that the entire safety and 'independence of his Country was secured. One Hon,. Gentleman •(we' believe Mr. Fox) said, he would consent to enable any two or three great States, which might be so disposed; to make an effectual opposition to any preponderating Power whose weight might seem to threaten their own destruction as well as ours. — But to do so, he wished first to find them. He had. great respea for the Wents of the Hon, Gentleman ivho made the observation. }-re was ready el di mute his position, hut now, as he happened 19 be absent, he would decline that' task, He th n ad verted to a charge made on the, second day 'of the Session, by Mr. WILBERFORCE, against His Ma jesty's Ministerss• alledging, that. France was ready to restore Piedmont to the King of Sardinia, bdt that our Ally, Austria, would not allow of it, fearful of the safety„of its own...Posse4ions in the, Venetian States. He did not know upon what in. formation the Hon. Gentleman might have pro deeded,' lint - Would say, that as far is any inquiries of his chuld4o, 'he•had made them, and could not discover that there was the smallest trace of' foundaiitin for theassertion. The Venetian Ter ritories could be in no danger from the King of Sar dinia; but if France offered to restore Piedmont, on the condition that the Emperor should evacuate. the Venetian Territories, the case was changed, thought he did not know that there was even ground thr such . -a supposition. He denied that any Party in that-House had expressed a prefereoce for a state of '. l C,Tar'oVer a state of Peace e some of them entreated Ministers toeaisume a mulls'. dignified condua, but none of them recommended provocation to hostility.. He was .convineed that nolhing would tend More to the security of Peace 'than this dignified . derneanor". It was not in human nature to relihquish gland Schemes of when a man-, to obtain them, - had only to stretch* foeth=bOthitis. arni , ;. He was opt about to give a history of Bonaparte • by way of a satire on him ; but what` was to stop hint,' if he saw no danger from the. only Natitio that ,possessed the means •of resisSiiig him with effed ?, Mr. Sit ERI - boasted that he had discovered the secret of those with whom he, (Mr.. GRENV.Ii,O) which was to turn out the Minister. The discovery, however, came rather late, as all .their. Speeches lieWeti them to' haVe had that . objea- at hears. It was: also said, that they aviiVed to' - bring back Mr. PITT. He hoped he should oot be. thought speaking with too great partiality for that Statesman, - When he said, that were :the - Conn: try car. vasssed _through, 99 persons out of ioo, would T• confess, - that to his talents, his lute. grity, and his commanding genius, was due the Salvation of the Country. The same 99 out of 100, would also-h ait his return to power as the best sealurity_theyhcould have,, and the greatest allefia.: tion of their fears. He was sorry that : iosinuations had been made, that he aria. hisefriends were'desir °us' ofeoming in with 'Mr. PITT. He never li"gtrd the charge' openly made, hut if it. Were passible that ahv could be base enough to make siteb in assertion as that • their- condul w'as_ influenced -sordid, views of - emolument, fie Was 'sure the 'foul'cliarge would be confined to-the base lips that ,coold give it Farterance. If Mr. ''r)tier should be restored to power; as he :Siiieetely hoped lie would:soon: be, it would then he seen, whether they would stand in the way of - any proposed arrangement; or bargain for them selves, or oppose any ; cinbarrassmenti. to Govern_ ment. After entering pretty largely into the de fence and_ praise of many parts -of the late .Minis• ter's condua, he said, ,as fur his own, it was before the Public, and lie had not the least fear of abiding theirjudgment. • • 1,6i-41 AWICESBURY.said, 'it was impassible; after what had fallen from the Right Hon, Gentle_ man, that heshould nor- trespass for a short time Upon the attention of the House, for the purpose of alluding to some topicS' which had been advanced, and which, in his opinion, required' some explana lion. The Right lion. Gentleman had commenced his speech with the same attack that had often been trade upon. the. King's Ministers, and which had ConStantly, been answered, as often as it had been advanced, viz. that they - had not brought the si tuation 9f the CoUntry fully - befdre the House, and that they had not explained that situation in the Manner which they ought to haVe done ; and that Pa rliament were called upon, without sufficient ground, to vote the Naval and Military Establishments of the year. But he contended, on the other h•h - 1, that every Part of the condkt of Government (even re ferring to thoee.documents which might be termed the Records of Parliament,. he meant the Speeches from the Throne, and the Addresses of that House), had fully explained • the System which Govern meot:had adopted, as far . as hail been usual with re. gird to Foreign' Affairs. The Right Hon. Gentle man might`say, that he had heard of discussions bet Ween this Country and France, . the result of which had not. been explained to him. 'Whether such disChSsions had or had not taken place it was not for hitothen td explain, but he would undertake to say, that it was not consistent with the general praiaice . of Parliament, and of the Constitution, to bring/the details of such discussioos before Parlia ment, unless Ministers called for some vote or opi nion. of Parliament, 'founded 'upon thosedetails, He knew that. it had been .maintained, that even e when a general case had been made by Ministers, without the pta l Kiktion Of the details, they had a -right to call for the support and confidence of Parliament. — This was the case at the period of the RUssian'Ar. matnent, ,and it was afterwards, said; on the other side of the House, that while the question was in discussion they had not inquired, hdt that when Ministers called for a direil vote, they had a right to give the I louge full information upon the Subjea. He did not state this to give a sanction to that opi nion,' but to hew that such . a distinaion•had beers made; He did not mean to contend that it was not competent for any Gentleman to move for such in formation, if he Could state sufficient grounds for its produdion ; meant only to justify -Ministers, in the line of condua they 'had adopted.—With r,!spea to the general System adopted by Ministers it had been insinuated and asserted, that it was' impossible to understand what that System was, as if Ministers had never explained themselves upon, the general - principle of their condua to France and other Powers. He. ought, perhaps,- upon this sub jea, to 'refer to authentic documents, such as - the Speeches from the Throne, and the ,Addresses of that Flotise, but from the nature of thoie Records, and from , the manner in which they were necessarily constructed, they must he taken subjea to the ex planation of His Majesty's Confidential Servants . .--- It must be obvious -to every Gentleman, that it was impqssible, in a' Speech or a Message froM the Throne, to enter -into such a minute detail as would he neeessaryhfor the full explanation of the subjet't ; but lie admitted, that in those documents the gene. ral principle of the 'measure prorsed ought aftr 2 Y 6 to be round. Hu was ready to contend, that it ;I , 'F's impossible to conceive (as far as the circtoristan ces . would admit) a more complete explanation of ri ' e System which Government had adopted ; than was to be found in an -AtuLtndment which he had mov4 to an Address proposed last Session by an Honour able Friend of his.—[His Lordship then read I' l ' 6 -ekriendmenit, .stating explicitly the e principlo- 0 4 i°4 which Ministers tided, and the line of condod 1114 meant to pursue.3—He wished . to ask fr,,y - Gentle man the_meaning.he would put upon the- cvoti4:•° l that Amendment. It contained • two , - prooosi tyhich he, did. not. mean to say could •• be: sepatake entirely, but which were, however, in sornedcgrl distinft.—The Right Him. Gentlerthin- corx - I).lbinel that Ministers had nut explained whether they would interfere wifli the Continental PoWers ; his answet was, that that point was completely exlilained in tl'' Amendment he iiad-rearth-L-He begged here shortly co call the at iention of the House to the late Lreaty, 3113 to the •Address to which he 'had alludecl. NO° other Treaties of Pearce were concluded, such as the' Ttetity of Utrecht,,the Treaty of Ryswickerwivid i preceded it,' and the Treaty of Atx-la.Chapel!ef which .was subsequent to it, this Country nest'- tutted for Peace in conjunction with other Powers but hen the late 'Meaty was concluded, ever} 1 on the Continent: had been • induced Qt compelled to make separate Treaties of Peacef We were, by those circumstances insulated, and forced to - make a separate Peace, unconnected any of the Continental Powers. Hi's Majesty's Ministers reited the defence of: that Treaty lapoi: the circumstances under . t'Vhich it had been propose° . and _concluded. . They stated the line of condua they ihni adopted inconsequence of the unfortunate , :vents which had happened on the, Continent ; but they. at thesame'timestated, that so far from aban doning all Continental coneexions, that it Inuit alwayseform a parrof • the system of this CcuntrY• If, be was . asked for the application,of that privet -, ple, his itnswer would _fie, that_ the . application or it musulepend upon circutnstaneesandevents; - the/ hr4ttferdfore . engrafied that. principle into the Ad dress. to' which he- had allr7c eel, That Address' therefore; ; contained the systeM which - the King's Ministers had adopted, viz. that" they would de'' fend our own Emptrehagaitist alhencroachmeiiis, lO o k with 'vigilance 'l6 - thesis.tate of the . dOntirren c ° Tlketr ihrtf - not attempted• to-'define minutely svhfC that line of condna Wouitoe,i;becarise it m ust . a l 7 ways governed , by, circumstances. If • t his• -re" . cord' Wanted ;ail -- c.nnArtnarion, he Might refer t v the :King's Spetolf. ; the .opening. of the resell Sessions td Parliament„(bis .I.4ordship read pare :This .. .Spiech', he' Contended, ryas 11 every particular conformable to the Address • 01 which he had before alluded, that it maintnined•t h° : same principles, and held the Same language. --" c far, 'therefore, as' language 'went, the, system the King's'GOVernment had been explicitly avowc (3 " The Right Hon. Gentleman might assert, • the ,; Ministers - had 'not ailed upon that system, that they, had gone beyond, or had fallen short (ki r; Such a charge was perfedly open to the Right H° ° Gentleman to make, if he could substantiate it, b l .l he had no right to say that Ministers had not 1 31 ,, down any system, and that they had not avo we ' it. There was One point upon which he 'v as e anxious to say a few words - , and that was orr K which had occupied a considerable part of the Rig Hon. Gentleman's speech, and had formed a c` 'i i sideratile part of the 'speech. of an Hon. Frien 3 his upon a former occasion. He alluded to t . e sJbject of Continental Alliances'. He should ha`li, thought, that upon the general principle of CeV. lO neural Alliances, it wasalmost unnecessary for to, make any profession. Wherever he sr e , ,upon this subjed, he uniformly maintained Opinion. it was a suhjed lath had y e t . early occupied his attention, and upon he had given his opinion the first time he 'had f j Honour of speaking in that House. He rec . 6 ll c,` that upon that occasion a Right Hon. Frietios• his had made a most able and ingenious sP ee which contained the best case he had ever pea - against the Balance of Power. But certainly' th° rUs prineiple, like all others, might he pushed - r° 0 1 extreme. It appeared to him that it was o,"deafie those questions upon which there - was a gr eat t bc ger of our over-refining, and he thought it was duty of Government to guard against the'e%tr e , ro o whiehlt degree•of over-refinement might sons t !,,t, occasion. He,had frequently considered the had never .been able to alter the oPinicon b e at first formed upon it, viz. that it was .a , principle, when limited by prudence and r'is a That the Interests of this. Country were not t° of . rially connected with those of the Continent ; 11 - 0 that, we could exclude ourselves 'wholly or ev e . it a great degree, from all Continental conneJlo3,ir would, ig his opinion, he' absutd to contend. ev g Commerce,.our Wealth,. our Importance in the ce ivi of Europe, Were such, that we could 'not i' r , vc i. tir say; that we. Would entirely insulate: our,s,e`tot % He-knew-it had been stud upon. this subje %too all Continental connexions were in [heir l ' to trf dissoluble. 'Phis proposition was u ndOub he t true; but was the consequence that was 5 if) inferred from it, viz. that n o human work Wa Its nature perfect, and that Continental Affia'l,ver .b,cause, they were liable to dissolution, oug h ` r , . to be entered into ? That those Alliances oft' 0 , 0 . tained, in themselves the seeds of tlissoltdwitheir true, hut the question was, whether with all , es ,,V defeds we were better' with or without ti l . t he This Was the only praftical way of considers i ri s 'subject. If he looked into the examples co l i e d in History upon this subjci he i was eoll'P elle ;biel i draw a very 'different inference from that . s i w, had been drawn by an I be en f CANNING) on a former occasion. It had 1 in `vary be serted, that we had often been involved . tO Continental Alliances, but it .rernain e 'l a-Dee" -1 3 (file proved, that any of the wars in which. we . Inauues• engaged had arisen 'from these A , vir w fact was direalk the reverse. In no ' VC Hon. Friend of his t we had undert,tken since the Revolution", , , i Corttillen feted eanogceasg.eu It tn mightt in ic,eornh'saepqsuiejencseaiodf,tveeemric at into the late, War in consequence of 111 with Holland, respeaing the opening of `1 wo e( tic but it must be admitted, that' that ool}' h 0.14 part of the general q 'estio.n. (1)':"1`)fe be Ca ti; Up PG