The Sun. — London, England, 1802-06-04 00:00:00

IMPER.IdL PARLI,I.IIE-NT. HOUSE OF PEERS, JUNE 3. Conusst were further heard relative to the Scotch Appeal, Mbkitti.ays. and intivs - row v. CAnt.l.l., after which the further cormideratiou of-the-ease was postponed till WedAus day next . The Royal Assent was given by Commission to twenty-, two Publie and Private Acts ; among the tormer were the Elkton B:11, the Sugar Duty Drawback Bill, the Irish Na vigation 13i/l, the Medicine. Duty pill, aril the Irish Sinking lund Bili. The Lords COVCITtiSSiOIIerS were, the LORD CH ANCif,tma, LOlft WALSINGHAM,AIId Lord AucKLAND. he Ceder ot' the Day respeCting the Eari of Sur o K's Motion relative to the conduet.6l_ His Majesty's late Mini sters was cinienarged, and renewed for Wednesday next, and their Lordships to be summoned accordingly. • The Ea'rl ofD'ARATLEY, after calling the.atten tion of their Lordships generally to the proceedings -Which had taken place in a committee of Privi leges on a former Session, relative to the pedigree, &c. of the Earl of BiRKELEY, and expressing the Strong feelings which lie entertained on that sullied, and ' which he doubted. not were generally entertain ed by their Lordships, moved to the following ef fed,: " That certain proceeding's in the Committee of .Privileges, the consideration of which was ad journed on the zoth of June 1799, be -revived on Thiirsday next, order that the same be they taken into further consideration." - This proposition produced some observations from Lord THURLOW and the LORD CHANC Ett,ow. The former was adverse to the Motion ; and the lat ter in the course of what he said, took the opportu nity to state certain proceedings which had . taken place in the Court of Chancery relative to the subject. The Earl of DARNLE.Y spoke shortly in explana. tion. After which the question was put, and the Motion negatived.- Lord THURLQW then moved, That the standing Order, No. 94, upon which, as we could coiled, certain recent orders are 'founded respelling the proof of the pedigree of Peers, &c. be taken into consideration on Thursday next, ioT the purpose, as we understood his Lordship, for discussing . the pro. priety o£ -annulling the same. This proposition gave- ritie., to a conversation, Chiefly of an explanatory nature, and referring to questions of form, between the Noble Lord and the Duke of NoR row: ; and after a few words trove r—irt of .I)4kR,N4,EY, who seemed to suggest the propriety of the House coming to some declaration with, regard to what had taken place respecting the earl of BERKELEY'S pedigree—the question was put on Lord iltußt.ow's Motion, which was or dered accordingly. • The Scotch Militia Bill was brought up from the Commons by Lord- GLENBERVIE, as was the Southern Whale Fishery Bill by Mr. ALEXANDER , arid a few private 131,1 s were brought up by Mr. C. DUNDAs and other Gentlemen—These were seve rally read a first time. Lord/PELHAM presented certain Papers, which, as we could Coiled, related to Pensions granted on the Civil List, &c: The Earl 6j . SUFFOLK ca led the attention of 4b.;, ‘crtdiri C;reti 11Stilt1.2.CS, appealed from Papers recency laid- before the House, respelling Grants, &C.-ttom the proceeds of. the Old Naval Stores. He particularly noticed an addition, which was stated to have been made therefrom, of zoooh. to the present Salary of the First Lord of the Admiralty—a considerable addi tion to that of the Treasurer of the Navy—and also, an addition to the stipend of the Judge of the Ad miralty Court. He thought these statements re- - quirtAl explanation from Ministers ; aol he wish ed to know, whether these Sums were in addi tion to those which were set forth in what was called the Red rook, as the Salaries of those Officers? Nor was that all—the total amount of the Grants, &c. which appeared in the Accounts presented, did not appear to him; on Casting his eye over the sums, much ,to excreo Now the amount of the whole proceeds of the sales of the Old Naval Stores being, as he conceived, considerably greater than that sum, he wished to know how the remainder was appropriated.. .He therefore in . .:.-nded to submit to the House a Mo_ don, for the purpose of learning the application of the v. hole Proceeds. A short explanatory, conversation ensued between the Noble Earl and Lords PELHAM and AUCKLAND, upon those points, in the course .of which the first mentioned Peer stated, that for many years since the Office of Lord High Admiral was put into Corn. mission,: the addition in question was regularly mit . e to his salaty ; and Lord AUCKLAND explained to the Noble Earl, that an account of the Net Pro_ seeds on the Sale of old Naval Stores was regu larly laid before the House of Commons, and was duly appropriated as part of the Ways and Means of such year. This was generally known, the sub jeCt was fully discussed-in the Commons in the year 1783, and the arrangements respetting Odin were agreed to without a dissentient voice. Previous "to the War, his Lordship stated, that fora certain number of years the average amount of 'those Pro ceeds were about 20,0001. per annum, and during the War, as we understoOd him, about 80,0001. The Noble Lord seemed to entertain no objection to the Motion hinted by the Noble Earl. Lord SUFFOLK then moved an Address to His. Majzsly, praying that there be laid before the House an account of the amount of the Sums arising from tie Sale of Old Naval Stores for one year end_ ing January I, 1802 ; which, op the • question being put, was ordered accordingly. The Order of the Day was-then read for the fur ther:consideration of the Report of the Militia Aug_ 'mutation The Report was accordingly taken into eonsi_ deration, when the original Amendments made by theclonnnittee, and sonic ,additional ones prOposed by Lord fddrtAkT, gave rise to a very long and de sultory conversation between the Earls of CARNAk- VON, ROMNEY,- arkd. .FITZWILLIAM, the LORD CHANCELLOR, and Lords HoBART and PELHAM, the I,hree first mentioned i'zers strongly expressing their diSapprobation,.and the Ministerial Lords ably defending Sent. _A division eniued relativ e to one cif the addiConal Amendments, which was carried 13 to 6. The Report being gat throJgh, and the various Amendments sannioned by the house, the till was ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday next. Some private business was then disposed of, and at eight o'clock their Lordships adjourned (on account ,ot the intervention of the Whitsun holidays) till Wedneday next. _ - HOUSE OF COMMONS. THURSDAY, JUNE 3. Mr. CORRY said, that on the Union of Ireland with Great Britain, it had been determined to make compensation to the Officers under the former Irish Establishment, for any diminution of emoluments which they might undergo in consequence of the Union. The Chancellor was-one of those who had suffered:a most material diminution ; a Compensa tion had, in consequence been granted to the late Chancellor for life ; but as this compensation did not continue after his death, the present Chancellor held that office under the same diminution as before that . compensation was granted. It was. necessary to give a proper' remuneration to men'of talents who executed the duties of. that high office, and surely no one could be, accounted more,worthy of the liberality of his country, than the present eminent character who held it. In order, therefore, to shew what•the emoluments of the Chancellor of Ireland actually were, and what they ought to be; he moved " That an Account be laid before the House‘of the gross and net emoluments of the Chancellor of Ire land." Mr. M: A. TAYLc4 and Mr. STEWART CX. pressed their satisfathon that such a measure was brought forward,. and bore testimony to the talents and integrity of the present Chancellor of Ireland. The Yeomanry Bill, and the Miners' Bill were put off to Wednesday. Leave was given, on Sir HENRY MILDMAY'S 'Motion, to bring in .a Bill to amend the Black Game Ad. The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill fur taking off the duty of 6 per Cent. from Irish Retailers. Mr. CORRY said, that in order to explain the 'subject completely to the Committee, it would he necessary for him to take a short view of the, origin and progress of this Duty of 6 per Cent. on tae, .toilers. In the reign of Charles 11. a Duty of 5 per Cent. war laid upon all gotids imported info Ireland. The excise was all Owed to be paid on transferring the goods to the Retailer and ConsUmer, instead of levying it immediately on Importation. At a considerable interval afterwards, these exemp tions and advantages were taken away, and in lieu of them, the Wholesale Dealers were allowed a dis count of 6 per Cent. on immediate payment of -the Duties. Affairs remained in this state till the year 17 82, when this Disc aunt was entirely discontinued, and the Wholesale Merchants, as well as ,the Re tailers, stood in the same situation as under the original Ad ; but, at the same time, the disparity between them was Continued, by a new imposition of 6 per Cent. on the Retailers. This was Laying an unequal and a Very 'heavy burden on that body of men ; but in reality, 6 per Cent. was not the whole of their burden ; for adding the Ifriportatidn Duty to it, they, in fact, paid 11 per Cent. on their goods. Such a heavy taxation, certainly called for relief. A Petition lay before the Committee to this effect, fr9m the Irish Retailers : They under_ stood' that no unequal Duty was paid by the Eng,ish Retailers ; they, therefore, petitioned that Partici_ ment would assimilate them to the English Re tailers, apcording to the spirit'of the Union. The Duty besides . was not produdive, and taking it off would be a very small diminution of the Revenue. He was convinced of .the propriety and justice of hearkening toahis Petition ; and, therefOre, he con cluded with 'moving, " That leave be given to bring in a B?il to relieve the Irish Retailers from the Duty Of 6 per Cent." • . Mr. BERESFORD said he could by no means agree with the ideas of the Right Hon. Gentleman an this subject.. The allegations in the Petition he looked upon as by no means correct. They scented to give a recent origin to a duty that arose from the nature of the Excise Ad passed in the reign of Charles 11. The wholesale Merchants were allowed originally to bond their goods. This privilege they exchanged in 1679 for 6 per Cent. discount on prompt payment of the duties. This regulation continued till 1785. It was impossible to allow the Retailers to bond their goods, and iliere fore they had never had this privilege,. or any com pensation for it, and consequently the difference between theM and the wholesale Merchants had continued for a space of 123 years. Another alle gation was, that no such difference existed in Eng land. But this arose from there having been no Import Duty there ; otherwise such a difference would have been a necessary consequence. The 6 per - Cent. imposed in 1785, only. placed the wholesale and retail. Dealers on the same relative situation as they were before that period. An alteration in this relative situation would require also an alteration in the other mercantile). Laws.— It had been urged, that it was intended to place the Retailers on a footing of equably with the other Dealers. He did not like the term Equality ; he was not for altering old laws, and introducing inn°. rations in order to favour that system. And as the wholesale Dealers laid out a much greater capi, IA; and their returns were slower, he thought it 'Ras just than they should have superior advantages id the Retailers. Mr. ORMSBY thought the Retailers entitled to Relief. General GASCOYNE gave the measure his cor dial support, and expressed his satisfaction that the principle of assimilation between the two Countries was carrying into, ell t. Mr. CORRY did, not wish himself to be consi. dered as pledging himself to the principle of assi milation, except where it could be acted upon with fairness to boil Countries. The• present question had ,no conneaion with the relative situa tion of the two Countries in respea to each other ; it turned entirely 'upon the internal policy of Ire land, and in this re'speCii alone he .wished to be un- - , derstoodas at present claiming its assimilation with England. Mr. FOSTER contended, that the relief at 'pre.. sent moved for was. unnecessary. The 6 per Cent. . imposed in 1785, was never complained of 'till the , Retailers were, four or .qv, t';.; ri ago, .brotlght torward, and shoved how to torm complaints.— 'When it was considered that the Revenue of Ireland last year scarcely amounted to 4°0,0061. above the , interest' of its , Debt, we ought to be . very careful in taking oil" the smallest TaX, unless a better t>ubsti tute for* could be first provided. But no better could be found than a Tax sandioned by , time, sub -mittM to without cOmplaint, and no-WiSe—Veratiotii in.its operation. The House then divided on Mr: Cotuves tion.7—Ayes 33--- Noes ;8--Nlajority The consideration of the Chancellor of Ireland's Income was referred to the Committee of Supply on Wednesday next. • - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE Q U E R moved, that the House on rising TO-day, do - adjourn. to. Wed, nesday nexr ; .but that all ComMirtees, notwith standing, have leave to sit in the.mean time.—Or dered. , , General G ASCOY NE, on account of the' late ness of the Session, withdrew his 'motion relative to the Slave Trade, and hoped the Hon. Gentle man, who had given notice.'of a 'motion on the same subjet, wouh also withdraw his. Mr. WILBERFORCE s aid, he .could not do so without, further explanation, which he 'was pro ceeding to give, when lie was interrupted by • The SPEAKER, who pbserved, that other busi ness stood for the day, of so important a nature, that he trusted the House would consider all other motions and orders as subordinate to it. + e SINKING FUND. The . Howe having resokied into a*Ccirtimittee . on the Sinking Fund, - . • The' CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER said, that after the full exiitamition which had for , merty been given of the intended alteration in the Sinking Fund, he should, at present, - i1 no opposi_ tiorroccurred, mjelyprocced to fill' up the blanks. Mr. BILVKES said, that some confusion had arisen in' the public mind with regard to the opera tions of the eltisting Sinking Fund, and that now proposed. The. truth was, that no difference ex_ isted in their ultimate operation ; and that no a& vantage arose to the Public from the proposed al. tetation, except the One per cent. on - the last lban._ But . the .disadvantages of this proposed plan, he contended, were much' greater than the Public had any idea of. Till 1868 _it *as allowed the advan. tages'of the two plans bore no comparison, and the period of their disparity would, on trial; he doul#ted, be found greatly to exceed the calculation. The new plan was of the niture of a Bonus ; it relieved ourselves from the necessity' of providing for the one per cent. on the last loan, and left pOsterity to look to themselVes. He contended that taking stocks at par, no advantage could he derived from the new plan in less than 38 years : taking them.= c, no advantage could be derived from it in less than z 8 years. Until the arrival of these periods; its advantages would be less -than those of the plan of 1792. Would ,rot these advantages, put oft to a distant reriod, whet) coupled with immediate disadvantages, have the effect of exciting the suspicions of the ino:. nied men ? He said, that any alleviation of Taxes which took place were small in reality, yet its principle and effeel were of the first importance, and by the old Sinking Fund, his alleviation would have commenced in six years hence. Such an immediate , operation would be felt and acknowledgcd by every one ; whereas people were little affe4ed by calcu lations of distant advantages *Melt they did not un derstand. If our debt be of such magnitude as' to require the. most nowerfOl means to subdue it, the most proper method surely would be to com bine the operations of the old and., new plans, and thus form a machine of infinite force and effi cacy. The redulion of interest by the continual liurchases of the former plan, he always looked upon as a great objea ; but the new plan, instead of lessening the interest, for many, years had the con, tiny effdl, by leaving a great quantity of Stock in the. Market, and of course reducing its value.— From all these considerations, he found himself called-upon by his duty to oppose any deviation from the plan of the Sinking Fund, sanctioned by Paella ' ment in 1792. • The CHANCELL.OR of the EXCHEQUER said, that whatever might be the difference of opinion between his Hon. Friend and hirmef, on the sub jeet now before the Committee, there certainly was none in the House, with resped to the' motive of iris Hon. Friend; and whatever variety of Opinion might be entertained in the Committee on the sub jed itself, he was sure there was no diFerence of opinion on the point of bringing it fairly before the House ; there certainly had been no attempt at any deception whatever, no endeavour had been made to draw a veil over the matter ; but on the contrary,' every endeavour had been used to lay it before Parliament as clearly and distindly aor possible'; that the real nature and all the circumstances 61 the Case might be made manifest.—lndeed, he believed, there never was a Case in which more pains were taken to cast light upon, The suhjea to be diScussed than the present, the very wishes of Gentlemen for intnemation on it had been anticipated in every way they could do, and that with as much dispatch as the intricacy, and importance of the sabie& woold admit ; he trusted, 'therefore, that those who brought forward this Measure, would now at least stand well with the House itsc:f, and that they would'be entitled to the credit of having pUrsued a course direaly opposite to that of deceptioni in laying .thisobusiness before the House.—His Hon„ Friend had given a description of this Measure, which he *should be sorry' it deserved, that of being _ _ a Temporary Measure ;.whether that charaCtermas appropriate to it, was fir the COmmittee to deter. mine ; he would say with confidence, that whatever' might be thought of• His Majesty's present Servants, the Right Hon. Gentleman, who was the author of (be great Measure, the original plan' on which zhe present Measure was .founded, (Mr. Pm) was - not likely to agree . td a • Measure that was teMporary in such, case as this ;.- .Was no friend to any temporizing System bf Policy;; - •t - .11 his ,plans were broad and permanent, 'he was convinced, that if this System_ had been 'of a temporizing nature, that Right Hnnour . ifble Gemle man would have been the first, to have. lifted u Isis. voice.against it ;, instead of y, , Taich he had already declared be did net consider it as inconsisttnt in any degree with his orrg.,4lal sr stem ; 11 ,a d : l i n f any degree deserved the •iniptitation cast Opoi",, f , it tended to sveakei , the system of that Rig Gentletuan for the liquidation of the National Dceu,_ Or had a bearing against that plan on w hich his fait fame was io founded, and an inviolablead, herence to which had so justly contributed to s well .!: to its present magnitude ) he would have 'the measure ; he - would have collet} Upon the House, with the affedion •of a parent? its prole& his child, when he saw that rat (4Y - 1 1 , t t health, but even•its existence was danger that Right Honciurablc Gentlemate bad al() bt l C 4-1 J r prehension ; on the contrary, he saw, .and he had !g*, pressed it, than the present Measure was perfe". consonant , Co the spirit of his system for the te d : dudion .of the National bebt - 'His Hon. Fli en who had spoken hat, , had said, .that 'the wh° le . 1 the advantage' of the present measure arose fr " s the relief which-it would afford to the Public , 14 saving the imposition of taxes in the present Y", r f c to the amount of 88o,000). - He did not think: Hon. , Friend had examined the plan with ins tist a d act . uracy, for if he had, 'he - vipOuld - not have stated that as the only advantage of this measuret ! was the •efletl•of the plane as appeared Irotri.Pal'er9. laid before the House ? _That in. a year when taxi to a larger amount -than were ever before, iirr sea l in one Session of Parliament, permanent taxe s I l ea upon ; the people,' 'there .was a disposition 0." t a '. pan of the Rxectitive otivernthent to recommend - measure, the effed of which was to avoid Jn tof mediate burthen upon the . people to the 2010130; near 999,p001 ais anti yet,.it a the same tittle , e ? f l much accelerating the redutaion of the .Nati°°o Debt ; and also to leave Parliament at lihertY o the year 1.808, to apply 5 I z,0001., the:amouoC the Short Annuities that would then fall ills was alsO 'stated, that an additional • con;equev ce : ° that plan would be e to leave at the. disposal Of Piir t. lianient, in the event of paying off the 5 Per " n ee between 1,400,0001. and 1,500,0001. for the f ie dudion of • the Pubhe Debt,' or to relieve the Pe ° P • from taxes to that mount. Upon this point P'll.; 'ticular stresslia - d • bien laid; and if at this period se should be the • disposition of Parliament to re lie li v , the people from thebin-then of taxes, they might "0 1 the 512,0031. Short Annuities, and the t, coot°, °° there Would then he 'a relief to the peoP'f,,, - 5 . 3,ooo,oool„and,the relief of 900, 000 1. was, be s r; imniediate. But it was not f o r hi m to presume 11° ., Parliam - ent woul,l aa in the 'exercise of its di scr t e e tion in the year 1. SoB.--But such would be the °l el of things when the five and four per Cents were P a y , off, - a - petiod which 'could not be a;nticipated fla precision ; but was reasonable to state it t be period.—Such were the recommendations of lis t Measure now before the Committee; but was the whole no such thing.--s His Hon. Friend ' o f said, that . the term- Consolidation was a ten decePliQu4n 'this case, which was certainly 001 o o f The difference between -the present plan and ' h3r ,.,,J the Sinking Fund established in the year 17 86 ' 11 1a, which was called the old Sinking Fund svas'-'lO that in' the year BoB,' when it discretion was E4) re afforded to Parliament with respell: to the rilet - ro , oft - Wosing of what was in the hands of the A'''.' o ff missioner 9 for the seiief of the People in raiO n g l ite Taxes, it was proposed, instead of arresting - progress of this Fund, it was to go o n until • cO.-' prOdudive powers of Compound Interest, es ti junctionwith the other Fund, it had 'O r in ; , the discharge of the whole Debt ; instead of r e : l t c lic at a 808, it was to continue its opera:lOn an tP c e whole Debt was discharged.—Whas %cal the tern of 1792 ? By that measure it was pro v o , l o -that one per Cent. should be raised of every 1-1 to that should thereafter be made, in propOrtlyiltot the sum borrowed, arid which seas to opet ate e d the Debt which it was calculated to redeem t be discharged; and the- surplus to be at t he os ' posal of Parliament.—The alteration now PrOi of Was, that instead of this-being at the disi °3 al la Parliament, it be added to the Sinking Fan't i t • both to go on until the whole Debt was rec ce ' ,lei The-se were the alterations, and it appeared u- ' O l , l , the present plan. It appeared under 0 1 plan,. supposing the 3 per Cents at par, all' tin_ 4. and 5 paid off, the old debt would be l o st guished in forty-four years and four mooch' „e, February last.—Supposing the 3 per Cents a ` es t; the whole Debt would be paid off in 3 2 )1 - 1 ; and 'to months ; that under the operation "` d ot System of 1792, the Debts incurred sinc e p er time would be discharged, supposing the 3 soi s , Cents at par, in 45 years anti 7 mo nths: t he posing the 3 per Cents at 75, the whole of and pew Debt would be discharged in 35 YC ars si oy ( , three months. By the Consolidated Syste r° , t itas proposed,. the whole of that Debt w o uld be C- , ca rs gqished in 31 years, that was to say, in four Y ere e less time than by the plan of 1792, and it," ti 7 s6 years - less than the 'operation of the plan 0 ' per would effectuate its purpose.—Supposing th e r lan Cents at 75, the .effed of this cOnsolid a te( P tie ; would be to extinguishthe Whole of the el‘ ls to Pebt'in.33 years and seven months, that tv" ) 0 o f say, the Debt existing previous to the 1 1 ' 1 e for 1786. - The period allowed by the Ad of 79 " ar ytip extinguishing the. Debt since, was +5 yea rs ; he'o l, if Gentlemen would, look at the papers before d ` p air' they would find the died Of the consol i date no t would be, supposing the .3. per Cents at P" r i , so t o only to extinguish` near 498,000,000 1 . b ut s hoo ) ' provide for the eXtinai . on 'of _;uear 40, 000 ' rnbre ; .and, supposing the '3 per Cents 'at 7 5 ' 0 11Y cif:a of - the consolidated plan would be, n' , tiro to pay off the Whole of the present Debt , 1 0 1.-*" to afford the means of paying off 'l+ o°° ', ( . ) 01°' Now he would ask the Committee, a , The t t , ' a e slia' c sure, the '6l - ed of which was, to aft-td 1 Efre- relief to the amount of 900,0031. an`i t° f (l of t" lief, if Parliament should l'iuSe ,to ziVAI irs o e o l o ).an a ,oppOrtunity in 1808, of briogin& sq' yta te the t,jooaesoolLin the manner-lie hatialrea4l eat re , ' to the relief of the Public in Taszes, wit lu s 6 or tattling the progress of the System of thine was s 79 ? -He would ask, he said, whether . frai l ' . 14;in which could be, considered as a the System .of 1786 or that of 4797- ? What ff f ile • ,• ns , be the effed of the AF} of 0786, in flan. bYll'' S 6) `faxes ? Aecording to the mode stated • f/ 7 AR ° 'Friend,, the - earliest Period under the an `refs to which It iat lt would be poS'sible to apply 'The money ,in the hands of the ComMis° dertali would