The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENI. HOUSE OF PEERS. FRIDAY, DECEMBER 17. TH R Royal Assent was given, by Commission, to the Malt Tax, the Exchequer Bills, the Annual Iniemnity, the Place and Pension Duty, the Irish Militia, and the Small Notes Bills, and also two Private Bills. The Lords Commissioners were, the LORD CHAN CE T-LoR, Lord PELHAM, and Lord WM-SING,- Counsel were heard at considerable length relative to the Scotch Appeal, Alexander Irving, Esq. of Newton, and Others, v. Mrs. Margaret Rollo, otherwise Housten, namely, Mr. ALEX ANDER, and the Hon. Mr. J. ABERCROMBIE, On the part of the Appellants,. and Messrs. ADAM and ROMILLY, on behalf of the Respondent, after which i. ALEXANDER was heard in reply. The LORD CHANCELLOR, then rose, and after stating his opinion generally with respeia to certain points in the case, suggested that its further consi deration should .be deferred till Thursday ; and halting moved to that effete, it was ordered accord- Judgment in the Cause, Lord Kinnaird v. Mat thewson was further postponed. • The various Bills before the House were for warded in their respthive stages. Mr. ALEXANDER, accompanied by several Mem bers, brought up from the Couttn.ms, the Trans port Bills Payment Bill, and the Dublin Baking Trade Bill. Two Private Bills were also brought up—one by General GAiCOYNE, and the other by Mr. ANNES- Lay, which, with the two Bills above mentioned, were severally read a first time. Some routine business was then disposed of, after which their Lordships adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. FRIDAY, DEC. 17. The. Royal Assent was given to some Public Bills. Sir C. RAMP FYLDE presented a Petition from the Che mists and Druggists of the City of Exeter, against the Medi cine Aa, Several Members were sworn in. Sir 'l'. MET CALF 5. presented a Petition from the Maltstcrs (lithe town of Abingdon, against the Malt Duty Bill. Mr. CA LCR AFT gave notice of his intention to bring in a Bill to regulate the Stone Trade. The Report of tlae Woollen Trade Bill was brought up and agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to morrow. The Report of the Corn Importation Bill was brought up and agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. The House went into a Committee on tile Bill for regulat ing the Trade to Malta, the blank was filled up with the words the ist of January, iSo4. The Report was brought up, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. The House went into a Committee on the Irish Militia Bill. Mr. CORRY said, he should propose the Amend_ merits he had to make, prg forma ; - he should then propose that the Bill should be printed, and that the Report should be taken into further consideration on the itth of February next ; so that Gentlemen would have an opl;ortunity, during the Recess, of considering the Dill. The Report was then agreed to, and it was or dered to be taken into consideration on the t Ith of February, and the Bill was ordered to be printed. The Bill to correa a Mistake in the Irish Mili tia Bill of last Session, was committed, and was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Mr. TIERNEY said, he had a Petition to pre sent to the House, to which it was necessary to have the approbation of His Majesty's Ministers, as it was an application for Public Money. It was not necessary for him to enter into the particulars of the Petition at present ; it was sufficient to state, that it was from a Mr. MARTEN, an American Loyalist, of the justice of whose claims there could he no doubt, though, from the peculiarity of his situation, he had no other means of redress, than that of ap plying to Parliament. The CIIANCELLR el the EXCHEQUER said, in giving the necessary approbation for the intro_ duetion of this Petition, he begged not to he under stood as giving any opinion upon the merits, or as pledging himself to support the prayer of it here after. The Petition was ordered to be laid on the Table. Colonel BEAUMONT presented a Petition from the Ship Owners of North Shields, against the Tonnage Duty. Ordered to lie on the Table. The Order of the Div being read far the third reading of the Felons' Transportation Bill, Sir CHARLES BUNBURY sail, he was happy that this subjeet had engaged the attention ofGovern mew, because it was one which appeared to him to have been much negle;tted. When he considered the zeal displayed by His stitijesty's present Mini sters to promote the Public advantage, by all the means in their power, he was encouraged to hope that the present was only a preliminary Measure to a general system of Reform tipon, subjea. The number of persons confined in our Prisons, particu larly those of the metropolis, was deserving of se rious consideration. There were at this time, so recently after what was called a Gaol-delivery, no less than 729 Prisoners. Jo 1 7 79, when it was visitod by the benevolent Mr. Howard, there were only 14t. Newgate was very magnificent in its aopearanca outside, but it was inconvenient in the inside. It seemed to him well worth the con_ sideration of the Magistrates of London, whether it would not be proper to have anAher Prison for Debtors only ; but he was convinced that the Ma gistrates could not effoa this obje,i without the assistance of Government. One great objea that ought-to be attained, was to remove the Prisoners who were sentenced to Transportation as soon as possible. If they could mit be sent abroad immedi ately, there ought to 1w a Prison for them on purpose. If - any plan of this kind was adopted, he hoped it would be that of the Panopticon Prison, suggested by Mr. Br NTRAm, which appealed to him calcu lated to produce the most beneficial consequences. Sir 70 HN ANDERSON said , he wished much that some Means could he devised of removing from Newgate the Prisoners sentenced to,Trans portation. There were now 3co Prisoners in that situation in Newgate, and might retnain perhaps fnr yeas. It was not only inconvenient that thev should remain long before they ricre remov ed from Newgate, but it occasionei, a very great expense. Thr ATTORNEY GENERAL sail, that the snbjed which had been referred to by the Hon. Baronet and the Worthy Alderman was certainly one deserving of great consideration. The mode of treating Prisoners after conviffion must be a very interesting question to every humane mind ; but however interesting that consideration might he, it was not one which arose immediately our of, or was conneaed directly with the Bill before the House. He begged that any observations he was making might not be considered as either approvirn , or condemning any of the observations which had e' fallen from the Hon. Gentlemen who had preceded him. As to what had been said about limiting the time which the Prisoners were to remain after conviction before they were transported, whatever he might think upon that subjea, he did not wish to clog the present Bill by introducing any clauses upon that subjed. The objed of the present Bill was a very simple one ; it was to enable His Ma -jesty to transport Felons in his own Ships, and inasmuch as that would facilitate the conveyance of Conviils, it would to that extent promote the ob jed which the Worthy Alderman wished to attain: The considerations which had been thrown out, might, perhaps, very properly form the subjed of Parliamentary provision hereafter, but he hoped they would not be introduced to clog the present Bill. Dr. LAWRENCE said, it was a subjet that deserved serious consideration ; perhaps the prac-• tice of sending out Convicts to Botany Bay might produce consequences extremely inconvenient, if not dangerous. Mr. H. THORNTON rose, merely to express hopes that the plan which had been suggested by Mr. Bentham, and which had met with general approbation, would be adopted. The Bill was then read a third time and passed. The Order of the Day was then read for taking into consideration the Report of the Navy Abuse Bill.—A Motion was made for the recommitment of the Bill. Mr. CANNING said, he did not rise to oppose the recommitment of the Bill, but merely to ex press a hope that it would not be pushed with so much rapidity through its remaining stages, as the Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed last'night. It might lie said, that he might wait till after the Committee, before he made these observations : but he wished to make them now, because his con duet in the Committee would be regulated by the answer he should receive respeting the time when it was proposed to pass the Bill through its other stages. The Bill which he then held in his hand had received so many alterations, and was so dif ferent from the Bill which was before the House last night, that it might fairly be considered as a new Bill ; and however useful it might be, it could not be denied that it went to establish a power in these Commissioners, if not of an unprecedented, at least of an extraordinary nature. It gave a great degree of pciwer to persons, of whose respedability he had no doubt, but some of whom were not ge nerally known ; and whatever might be the appa rent necessity of this measure, he thought the House of Commons should pause some time before they conferred their sanaion upon it. He was very far from saying, that those abuses did not exist, but when an application was made to Parliament, to confer an extraordinary jurisdiaion, Parliament ought at least to be certain that there was no existing constitutional authority capable of correa ing these abuses. When he saw from the perusal of our history, when he knew from his own experi ence, how much good had been done by Committees of that House, he was unwilling, without very strong grounds indeed, to pass by such a Constitu tional mode of proceeding, and to give to persons, to a certain degree unknown, powers so extraor dinary. His wish was, that we should not resort to this Bill till all the usual Constitutional Remedies had been tried. Viewing the subjed in this light, he was not disposed to think lightly of a Motion which had been brought forward by an Hon. Gen tleman some nights ago (Mr. KI NNAI RD), with great ability, and though the Papers which he had moved for, might not atTord all the information he wished, still that Hon. Gentleman was right in the principle on which he had founded his Motion, viz. that Parliament ought not to grant these extraor dinary powers, till they • were satisfied that there was no regular power in existence capable of attaining, the objea thee had in view. If the Admiralty had not sufficient power to correul the Abuses which they had detected, he had ra ther give additional powers to that Board, because it was an existing, known JurisdiCtion, than create this new Tribunal. It had been said, that the Board of Admiralty itself was to he subordi nate to this Commission ; but he begged to be excused if he declared, that he did not believe that that was the real objea of the Bill. His reason for entertaining that opinion was, that in the Bill as it stood last night, though there was a clause, making the Admiralty in some respeas subordinate to the new Board, yet it was enaded in another Clause, that this new Tribunal was to derive all its Infor mation from the Board of Admiralty, and therefore he could not believe that it was seriously intended that its Powers should extend over the Board of Admiralty. His objed was, that when the pre sent Bill had gone through the Committee, when it had received all the alterations and improvements which were intended to be made, that some time should be allowed to Parliament to consider the subjea. He saw no objeftion to its remaining till after the recess, and surely this could not be consi dered as a great delay in a Bill of so much import ance in itself, and in the example it would afford for the future. This Bill -aid not appear to him` to press, in point of time ; if it did, it was the fault of Ministers in not bringing it forward sooner. Its objeft was, to overhaul the abuses which had existed perhaps for the last twenty years, and surely there was no reason to apprehend, that persons would carry oft their abuses - to any great extent for • the next five or six weeks, particularly with such a warning as this Bill would give them, hanging over their heads. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Right Hon. Geutlemntn did not ane4s. him to be aware orthe tendency or the operatioal of the Bill then under discussion. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that this Bill coAveyed new and extraordinary Powers to the Commis sioners; hut he was sure that that Gentleman could not have referred, with his usual accuracy, to the Proceedings of that House in times with which he ought to have been acquainted, or he would not have made such an assertion. In every Ad which had been passed for the last IS years, appointing Commissions for the purpose of inquiring into abuses, nor only Powers as great, but even greater Powers. had .been given, particularly in Commis sions which had been instituted in 'the years 1780 and 1785. It was stated on a former day, by a Learned Gentleman, of whose accuracy he had in general the highest opinion, that this Bill con. veyed Powers unknown to the Constitution. Upon that occasion, an Honourable Relation of his, (Mr. J. HILEY ADDINoIoN), had expressed a doubt whether equal, if not greater Powers, had not been given upon other occasions.— He had therefore felt it incumbent upon him to make an inquiry into the subject, and confessed he• was anxious as to its result--the inquiry was made, and he was now enabled to state, that what his Hon. Relation had urged as a matter of doubt, he might have stated as a matter of certainty. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated,' that a Bill of this na ture ought not to be hurried through the House. — He was sure, that he, nor those by whom the Bill had been introduced, had shewn any disposition to hurry the Bill. But every one who believed that those Abuses did exist, must agree with him in thinking, that the Bill ought to be passed as expeditiously as possible ; or, at least, that no unnecessary delay should take place. The Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, that a de lay of five or six weeks could make no great dif ference : but it was a matter of regret to him to be obliged to state, that the abuses which this Bill was meant to prevent, had existed for a long time, and did exist at the very moment that he was addressing the House, and at no period to a greater extent than during the last eighteen months, and therefore it was highly important that no Unneces sary delay should be created ; nay, that even a single day should be lost. What was the object of this Bill ? It was not for the purpose of punishing any persons by whom those abuses might have been practised, but merely to institute an inquiry into them, and surely a delay of six weeks could not be necessary to know whether an inquiry should take place into abuses which were universally al lowed to exist ? If the House did not believe there were any such abuses, it would be a good ground for rejecting the Bill altogether ; but it was no ground for delay. The Commissioners who were to be appointed under this Bill, had no power of themselves to punish any abuses which - they might dete6t—they were only to report to the House, the result of their inquiries. , And this was exadly the case of the Commission which was appointed in the year 1755, under the re port of which Commissioners, the Committee of Finance had founded its proceedings. Some doubts had been expressed, whether the abuses ex isted to the extent which had been stated ; but it was unnecessary for him to argue that question, be cause they were recognized by the Report on the Table of the House of Commons. A Commission for similar purposes was appointed in the year 1792, and but for the commencement of hostilities, a similar inquiry to the present would have taken place. 11e thought that the late Administration had aged wisely in not, under such circumstances, persisting in the inquiry, and exposing the whole of the machine to the risk of being stopped, because some of its part were saut of order. But, the House. had before them, the recorded pledge of the Board of Admiralty, that on the restoration of Peace, the inquiry should be instituted. -The pledge they then gave, it was the intention of His Majesty's Ministers to execute, and they were now only asking Parliament to do that which the . late Ministers would have done if they had remained in office. In discussing this subjea he was glad to take the benefit of the precedent established by his kight Hon. Friend, he meant the Commission appointed in the year 1785;,--He was in Parlia ment at that time, and no objections were made to that proposition. No Gentleman then contended that the dignity of Parliament would be degraded by the appointment of such a Commission ; on the contrary, the plan met with general approbation and support. If it was true that those abuses had ex isted to the extent which had been stated, and if it was to be contended that the House of Commons were to inquire into them themselves, the conse quence would be, that all other business would be laid aside, for the time of the House would be entirely occupied upon that subject alone, for one, or pro bably two entire Sessions. He was therefore' entitled to assert, that it was not upon the alle gation of His Majesty's present Ministers, that this Bill had been brought forward ; it rested upon the Reports upon the Table of the House of Commons, upon the Order. in Council appointing the Commis sion in 1792, and upon the declaration of the Admi ralty Board, that they would resume the Inquiry upon the restoration of Peace. It had been asserted that the Clause in. the Bill which made the Board of Admiralty in some respect subordinate to the new Board, was merely ostensible, and that it was not really intended. What could justify such a sus picion on the part of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he could not tell. It would he strange indeed, if when these Commissioners made their Report, there was no reference whatever to the Board of Admiralty, and he was sure the present First Lord of the Ad miralty would not aft in such a manner- ait was not his disposition—it would not be his condut. He could, if it were necessary, give satisfy Cory proof to the House that it was the wish of the First Lord of the Admiralty that the condud of that Board should be inouired into as well as others. If that was not the case his name would have been intro duced into the present Bill as one of the Commis sioners. He was extremely sorry that the name of the Noble Lord could not be inserted in this Bill, but as it was intended that the cooduti of the Board of Admiralty should be inquired into a,s well as that of other Boards, it was impossible that he should be one of the Commissionersess, A. doubt had been expressed wiNth,“ the tudiiary powers or the Bona of Admiralty- were not 4 ficient without the intervention of this Bill.' He should have thought, that a reference to the patent of the Admiralty Board, or even a little ercise of common sense, would have convinced the Right Hon. Gentleman, that it was imOessib le that such powers could belong to the Adatiralty• — ; It must be obvious to every body, that they could not have powers to send for persons, papers, and records—that they had no powers over Prize-agents, &c. but even these powers were short of those given to the Commissioners, established under the Ads he had before alluded to, viz. those of 178 0 and 1785, which authorised the Commissioners to send for any persons they might think.proper, to order to carry into effect the objects for which they were appointed.. It could not be contended, that the Admiralty possessed powers equal to this, and therefore, he was intirled to say, that those a buses did exist, that it was proper to make an inquiry into them, that the Admiralty Board had not sufficient power for that purpose, and that a Commission such as was now proposed, was perfectly consistent with the practice of that Ilonse. He had said before, and he begged to repeat it, that the object of this Bill was to inquire into those abuses, and not to punish thoso who were guilty of them ; and he was inclined to think that the knowledge of the existence et the abuses would be sufficient to induce the House to pass this Bill with expedition. If larger powers . were given than the necessity of the case required) let them be abridged ; if the powers were not suffice ciently extensive, let them be enlarged ; but these were not arguments to justify delay. He had yesterday consented to the proposal of the Hon. Gentleman for recommitting the Bill, understand• ing that it was not intended to propose any unne cessary delay. He saw no reason for delay then ; lie saw no reason for delay now. He hoped 'the Report would be received_ to-night, anti that the Bill would be read a third time to-morrow. Con sidering the real object of the Bill, he was s ure there was no ground for delay, because it would be only suffering abuses CO go on, which they k,n,evi to exist. Mr. CANN/NG explained, that he had n ot as serted the AdMiralty Board to possess the necessa ry powers, but said, that if it were deficient, he would rather have its powers extended, than vest than in Commissioners. Admiral BERKELEY thought the he - s - t way 13 which the Ministers could shew their disinterested ness, would be, in not hurrying the measute. H e implored them to pause for a while till they tai be made sensible of the blunders in this, as they 1 13 ' 1 do: - ie in the Bill of yesterday, out of which they had not only omitted a whole Clause, but made such other changes, as left the measure no longer !" same. He was certain that a little time would prove this Bill to be equally defelive, and it would be better to take time, than wait for the operation/ to point out the imperfedions, He had personally no objet in wishing for a postponement of the mea" sure, but could not avoid thinking the persons they had seleaed for Commissioners, as furnishi ng g ood grounds for further deliberation. With th e e xcer 4 , tion of one respedable Friend of his, the whole 0' these Gentlemen were at most but very deficient# and there was not one of them who knew any 014 of a Dyck-yard. The matter was not such a 4-- c a be comprehended in a moment, and after goil down to the Dock-yards, the Commissioners wou i find that they had their trade still to learn. yeti under all this deficiency, if they rushed into t il l business at once, they would be liable to erecti l e blunders. To shew the indecision in this case, b need only state, that he understood the origioa; ltv tension to be, that Lord ST. VINC NT should E f l placed at the head of the Commission, though su l '' an arrangement was afterwards found to be inirr ° ; per. Upon the whole, however, he could not b il disapprove the select on. of persons so little clu ;,!iW' l as the proposed Commissioners, to inquire qtrlc ki Y, into abuses, to understand which, would take 1 - , three years of any man's life, supposing him spend five hours in the day upon it. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re ; plied, that there was no other found ation whatev e but report, for supposing that the Noble and d is ; tinguished Lord alluded to, had beet, at any ri ril • c destined to compose a part of this Commksion , being considered that he was disqualified tor it 1) J. his Official Situation. Lord TEMPLE observed, that though the Co il ; missions established in the years 1780 and 1783 . 1 been resorted to as precedents of complete tion, yet it was apparent that the powers pr, , p ( P e , it by the present Bill, would be tenfntd greater tfr e in either of the former, or in any other case. 1. , ) power of imprisoning without bail or mainpr iP4 any person who should refuse to answer any in tefr rogatories put to him, was such as had no pre c `; dent whatever, unless perhaps, in the abhorta ill quisitorial power of the Star Chamber. ~gll The CHANCELLOR of the EXC explained, that some of his allusions in t e , precedents of 1780 and 1785, were chiefly in a r o ference to this Bill in its original shape, which " now very materially altered. Mr. STURGES allowed that the precedent s re t ; ferted to might justify the present Bill, if it %v.' s 0 , be justified by precedents. He said he w‘" ` 1 1 ., c willing to admit that he kid a right to considet f 0 -agreement made last night for the recom mione" s A the Bill as a concession made to him. This w ' n i, Bill of much difficulty, and should not, in O ;hr nion, be precipitated before the recess. He t hnu :',„or the alterations made in it since last night, shewed absur4 it would have been to have sat discussing l'au, former one, which had been abandoned by its DC thors. He had strong objections but! , to ch‘: and the manner of bringing the measure fat' s es , The time was precisely at the eve of the reic the when the thin appearance of Members sheweL; joc'e, great difficulty of procuring a cvayetent and yet this discovery of gross abuses \vas i nj the Admiralty in the course of the sumni'2r/.1,,5c thus upwards of a month was sutfeNd to without bringing the subject un d er tip. e,w liament. One of his objections to the manner) r, that the Bill was at first prolessrd to 113" bee posed at the instance of the Board of Adl!'t l rs willing that an inquiry should be also made lt°