The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-03 00:00:00

val. What could ihe - the objea of this ? Cochin was of no value whatever:as a trading place, and France therefore can oily wish for it as a place of considerable strength, and conveniently situated for negotiating with the Country Powers of India. —With regard to the disposition of France in the East, pregnant and strong marks of it. were lately to be found in the F.ench Papers,, which did not conceal every thing to be aimed, at thstigersion of the British Power in -India. Having taken this general view of the Naval Power of Europe; he came next to consider whether the. House, ought : , now to confirm the vote of last night in silence, and in ignorance ? In the Ministers we beheld a strange mixture of acquiescence in the views of France, and a seeming struggle against them ; and thus unin formed, the House was called upon, without a word, to confirm the' disgraceful vote of yesterday. If asked whether he objeded to the number of 59,000 men ? he would reply, far from ir, for he should be glad if he could think that'even that was enough.— But he wished to know what was the general use of the vote ? By a smile which, he said, he ob served on the-Gentlemen opposite him, he supposed them to think he meant to ask the destination or the forces, whereas he only adverted to the animus by which they were to be applied. In June last they were called upon to vote 70,000 men, when they were winding up the accounts .of the War ; afterwards the Minister estimated . the Peace Esta blishment at, 30,000, and demanded at the time only 27,000. What was the reason then of their now calling for 50,000 ? They had, already been in possession of that force, and yet had made no use of it. They did not use stronger language during All the late occurrences, nor did they speak in ,a higher tone...of authority. He would ask them, what use did they. intend to make of it now ? Did they mean to go to war with it ? Per haps it might be answered, that they meant to in terfere; hut if that was now their intention, why did they not' do it before ? Or was the vote to be passed, that we should merely sit still in the man ner we had hitherto done ? He concluded; by ob serving, that though, upon the whole, he did not objeEt to the vote, provided sufficient reasons were given for it ; yet, if the House did not compel Mi nisters to set them right in the explanation they, ought to require,, he should certainly move to have it re-committed. • . _ _ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he' hoped the House would do him- the justice to believe, that it was not in consequence of the menace held out by the Right. Hon. Gentleman, in the latter part of his speech, that he then-rose to address them, nor did he think it necessary to say Any thing to the imputation of disrespetl and con tempt, and a disposition to bring disgrace upon the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman charged-him with being silent ; he, on the other band, charged the Right Hon. Gentleman with being present in his seat last tight when the vote was passing, and of not having said a single word relating either to his own oblations or to the, silence of the Ministers. In that respea he was himself no doubt an accessary to all the contempt and disgrace he so much com plained of. Ministers, he said, had never expressed any confident expectations from the pacific views of France, and when it was urged against them that large Military Establishments were .not kept up, though they themselves, on the first day, confessed the neces 'sity of them, they answered to the untrue and unjust charge made against them of having disbanded a considerable part of the Military Force, that no avoidable .reduction in the Regulars had taken place, with the exception of some Cavalry, and that they then maintained 50,000 Seamen, though 45,000 were deemed sufficient in the first year of the War. In a few days afterwards the necessary estimates were presented, and on Tuesday last, though notices were not considered as absolutely necessary, yet no, tice was aCtually given, that the Vote required for the ensuing year would be 50,000 Seamen, which were moved for yesterday. He , had on that occa sion reason to expal, from the dispositions manifest ed by certain Gentlemen, that some questions would be put and some discussion ensue, and he was then prepared and ready to enter into any Debate or Ex planation, Which circumstances may call for. , Was this, on his part, any indication of neglat of duty ? Had he began himself, yesterday, upon any explana tiGns, he had reason to exped, that the Right : Hon, Gentleman (Mr. T. GRENVILLE) himself, in quit ting the House, Would be the first to complain that he had been unnecessarily wasfirg the time of the House upon a thing that was not wanted, for that he thought the vote, so far from being too large, was not perhaps enough. In the reference made to the Speech of i/63, His Majesty expressed his confidence in the good intentions of other Powers, and the number of Seamen voted was zi,oOo. After the peace of 1783, the Army was first reduced to 83,000, then to 43,000, and afterwards to 17.000, for Guards and Garrisons only. The reduaion of Seamen to 26,000, at that time, he would not deny to have been justi fiable by the sense of security then entertained ; but at the present period he owned that he should not think himself warranted in an entire reliance on the pacific dispositions of the French Court. For that rea son he could not have proposed any considerable reduc_ tion in, the Military Force last year. For the present year the vote was for so;000 Seamen ; and in a very few days a Right Hon. Friend of ,his (tile SECRETARY AT 'WAR) would have to submit to them a proposal for a much larger Military Establishment than per haps was in the contemplation of any Gentleman, because in the present state of Europe it was thought necessary to keep a greater defensive force than on. ordinary 'occasions. He never yet, he said, had any ,reliance on France, his- reliance was upon security, and that security could only be derived from a confidence of strength. The Right Honourable Gentleman seemed to think that 'Mini sters should be compelled to give their reasons for maintaining such a foice, He owned that he knew of -no greater deference than what was due to the authority of.that House, but he could not comply with what was asked, at least Upon this question, because he was not prepared to tell the relation be tween 50,000 men, and the present state of Europe. The Right Hon. Gentleman' himself thought the number required scarcely sufficient, but if want ed to find, some of the reasons for keeping up a great Nava; Force, he - will find them paitly in some, pe. collar Expedition France, for, instance, at rte. sent employed a very rensidetable Naval rorce in attempting,to reduce the Island of St. Domingo. This made, it necessary for England to maintain a proportionate force in the same Seas, but in order to effect that objett, it was accessary to pre serve a greater force at home than would be otherwiSe requisite, in order to reinforce occa. sionally the Squadrons on the West India Stati6n. Many of the ships on that station had alfiallbien . a long time -at sea, and the considerate system - of the Board of Admiralty was to relieve such vessels from time to time in such a manner, as' to add more to the comforts.and convenience of the men. For ' this we must always have a Home Fleet in a con stant state of preparation ; but still he wished more to rest the augmentation on the broader principle of the-present state of Europe, and the necessity and expediency of such apowerful defensive system as would place the Subjects of this Country in a state of sectirity, and a condition to enjoy the blessings of Peace. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, he has extended his statement to a general view of the maritime state of the different countries of Europe, and a description of the dangers with which this Country is threatened by it. Beginning his review with Russia, he expresses' great concern at that Court's .shewing a disposition favourable to the views of France. Upon that subjed I beg leave to decline any discussion with him, though I own, that I heard with regret and sur prize, such assertions respeding the influence of France on the Councils of that •tireire.— He goes to the Convention concluded with the Northern Powers; but as he has deferred that sub_ jet to some future discussion, for that subjed I shall take the liberty of reserving myself. I can_ not, howevers pass over what he has attributed to my Noble Friend (Lord HAWK ES suRY),` of having said, that the glorious victory off Copenhagen, threw, difficulties in the way of the subsequent Ne gotiations. What he said was, that notwithstand ing the previous event of . the Death of the Em peror Paul, and all the advantages of that Vic tory, never excelled in splendor of execution, still the Negotiations alluded to experienced many difficulties.---The subjed he next alluded to, is the great activity prevailing in the Naval Depart ment of Holland, where new ships are constructing, old vessels repairing, and every exertion using to put the Maritime Power of that Country on a for midable footing. But, considering its former great ness, how are its present efforts to be wondered at ; or what cause of alarm is there of having, in the , course of the last War, lost 16 ships out of 41 they possessed before : it is endeavouring toreplace that damage 1” , increased building and repairing. The same complaint would apply with equal propriety to the naval equipments of any other Country ; but 1 confess that I should be disposed to view their ef forts with grief and concern, if they were met with supineness and inadivity on the part of England. t acknovrledge that the maritime power of France, Spain, acid Holland Must; under the present circuin stances I,e considered as one, and trust that ,England will take care never to view them in any other light ; but the Hon. Gentleman is very much mis taken in. representing that the Navy of Russia, or of any of %Ise other Maritime Powers, can in any' way be taken a s a part of the force of France. With regard to Porttigat, it is notoriously true, that a feegrant insult w ss offered to the English Flag ;but that should not be reken as a proof of design or premeditated ill-disposition, for no sooner .was •a representation made of it, but the Court of Lisbon, without the smallest: hesitation, hastened to repair the indignity, by sending all the : persons concerned in the insult inrmedi ately to Lisbon, and took every step to afford the mo st complete and immediate satisfaction. That the sat isfadion was ample, must be evident from the cir cumstance that the Officer himself was satis fied an d made no farther complaint, and We all know that, individuals of that description feel with deli cacy :and extreme sensibility upon every point of honour.' With regard to the Mediterranean States, Mr. ADDINGTON proceeded to state that the Righ t Hon. Gentleman was as defettive there as in many of his other, observations, for the British Fleet in that quarter was certainly at this time greatly super for to any force that could within a reason. able interval be pOssibly brought against it.— " I'Ve have there," said he, " ten Sail of the Line Unchfr the command of Sir Richard Bickerton ; arid here I am happy in the opportdnity of contradicting reports, which have been industriously spread abroad by .aorne, perhaps, from their fears, and by others possibly from very different motives, that the French 14ad 27 Sail of the Line at Toulon, in rea. diness tc, put to Sea. In contradiction to this ill founded Tumour, I can assert, on the authority of the gall ant Admiral himself, that the French have not at Toulon more than five Ships of the Line ready fer sea4-aed that at Catthagena, there is a still smaller number." He - denied his ever having said, that we had obtained the Guaran tee of Aussia, for the mannet ip which arrange.. Tents ?ere made for the Government of Malta, though tie might have--raid--that.. we had obtai:l - the guarantee of Malta,-(Mr. GRENVILLE here acoess the table set him right by observing, that he bad _not represented him as having made such a s tatement in regard to Russia). In. order to shew ti le nature of that danger represented as threaten ing us from without,, he stated that at the commen cement of the War the Naval Forces of the three Pi 'wets were, Franc, - - - . So Ships of the Line. . Spain, in 1797 ' - - - 79 Ditto. Hollai id 27, but having built 113 mot in the course of the Was, the total was - - - 40 Ditto, A mount in the whole to 1 99 —By t he result of our operat.'ions.in the progress of the Wa r these were reduced to 123. The state of the Col phined Navy at present was—Of the line— France, 39 ; Spain, : 68.:, Holland, 31. 3-01 the line, 196 ; frigates, 243 ; sloops, Sec. 22 a—Total, 659. By this it would appear, that ou. r excess over the ; c.:otubined Navy was no less thi in .6o sail of the line, exclusive of a very, great s operiority of smaller vessels, The whole result wias, that in the IVWditerranean we were su perior ; that we had the sa me superiority at home,' and tha'; such measures had ,been taken by the pre sent Bo and of Admiralty, plat so.,rnoreships of the line could be sent out immts.diately, and a greater number upon any great euergency, Was this, he askeci, suptoenesa of italotente on the part of His Majesty's Ministers"?, sach a charge should be made againstahetn, they, would leave . it ,to be an. swered by the Rthish Navy. It has, however,' observed he, been asked, *hat is to be the applica tion of this foree ? My reply is, to main, taro Peace, if it can be . done with honour and security, and if not, to be in a condition to meet ants y attack the enemies' foteea' Wherever' they are to be met with. This is the animus .with which it is meant IQ be-applied,. to preserve, as I said before, Peace with security an'cf flour, if other Wise, to be enabled to meet and attack any combination, without • any apprehensions as- to whatever may be the issue. Let me ask, what-would be the radical result of sustaining the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition' ; in my mind, he used many strong arguments in favour of the vote. The expediency of the proposition is evinced in the pre. sent state 'of the Country. When I mentioned a Peace Establishment of 3o;00o Seamen, I did so in a qualified mimer, thinking a great redudion necessary ; but tmable to forsee how much. This, however, is not the Peace Establishment, and I will add, that the amount of that Establishment may, in a great measure be influenced, and depend upon the disposition manifested in support of the present Vote. Itt what I have already mentioned, I con ceive myself to have given a sufficient answer with resped to the grounds upon which the Proposition rests. If we compare the numbers voted in the various years of Peace. since 1783, we shall find se veral of them, when, in proportion to the varying aspeds of affairs, the number of Seamen was not less, than what is required at present. The reason which makes me most anxious for the adoption of this meaa sure is, because I think it -affords the surest prosped of preserving Peace, and should we be disappointed in that, we might be prepared to meet any possible emergency ; that if any sudden insult 'or - injury should be offered to toa we should be in a condition immediately to put out a great proportion of that naval force, which never yet appeared upon the ocean, without preserving out reputation, en creasing our power, exalting our 'glory, and providing fur our solid interests.— He conclud ed with ob\erving, that he did not suppose there would be one • dissentient voice upon 'this oc casion,• and if any Gentlemen should be disposed to blame him for entering into a justification which they inay deem unnecessary, he hoped they would excuse him on' the ground of the imputation,/ which had been made against him. Mr. 'I. GRENVILLE. and the Cu aNCE.LLOR, of the EXCHEQUER explained. Sir SIDNEY. SMITH said, , he should not have troubled the House, if the Question then under consideration. did not relate particularly to the Profession to which he had the honour to belong; there were some observations upon this subjed which occurred to hiM, which he thought necessary to be stated upoothe present occasion. • He trusted that the House would agree witia him in thinking ; that the Dock_yards of the Country should be in a state of activity and readiness in case of emergency, and that they should be properly manned, as well as the Navy. It had come to his knowledge, as representing a Cityimmediately - conneded with one of the King's Yards, that many men had been re cently discharged from them, deprived of all em-• ploy ment, and placed in circumstances of the neat est distress. When he knew the benevolent dis position of His Majesty's Ministers, and of the Noble Lord who presided at the _Board of Admi ralty, (who he knew distributed large sums front his private purse, for charitable purposes), he was convinced, that they could not be indifferent collie. circumstances of reducing such a a number of men to the greatest degree of poyeaty and distress. He therefore supposed, that if more had not been done for these men, it Was because the Public had not provided the means. In, his opinion, it was per, feetly proper to keep up the nornber of men now proposed for the Navy,: or even a larger. number, because ifs() many men were to be dismissed with out any kind of provision whatever, it was to be apprehended that they might seek employment from Foreign States. It was true, that they might feel great rel.-yid:lnce in going into the service of a Foreign„Power, particularly of a Rival Power, but when men were pressed by dire necessity, it was impossible to foresee what they would do, and it was notorious •that Rival Powers would offer very strong temptations to them to enter into their ser. vice, In stating these circooostances,..te was not attending to the solicitatiora of particular Indivi duals, because they might have voted one way or another at the: Election : He' considered himself as representing those. who did not vote for him, as well as those who did ; and he had not undertaken to represent them in the Anti-chambers or in the Offices of Ministers,, but iteshe.House of Commons. He could not but deprecate what had fallen from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, towards the conclusion 'of his Speech, with regard to a future redudion of the Navy; on the contrary, he wished, that if any alteration should take place, it would be to increase, and not to dithinish the number of men e and for this reason., because the fleets of this Country could not he brought into a state of ac. aS - Soon . as "..the armies of the Enemy. An army was Mitch sonnet - put in motion, and could at with greater. rapidity than a fleet, more especially 'in the present state of Europe, which had of late been but One . great Camp, and almost all men were exercised and trained to arms. One reason why he was inclined to wish .that a larger number of men might be employed' was, as perfect confidence he had in the present MiniSters, that whatever force might he entrusted •to their. , hands, it would not induce them to enter into a speculative War ; bdt it would enable them to hold such high lan guage.'as would help them to,, preserve the Peace; or at least give a longer and a greater chance of preserving it. 'He wished to take this opportunity 'of observing, that a : very large number of men had been discharged from the Navy ; and every body , who knew any thing of the: commercial Navy knew, that none but What were termed able Seamen, could find employment ore board Merchant Ships. ' The regular answer given, when a Mao applied for employment onboard one of them was, '' No more Cats than catch Mic.c."-.---What -then , was a • man to do under such circumstanceo he might , offer himself to any of the King's Ships that werefitting- oi;t, toot there Were sttla nurnYlers Seamen, that they andel not take what v 135 termed an Ordinary S.earnan any more that , a tar t ' chant Ship. Under such circumstances, a man aj turned adrift without resources, and Without a Pt': fession. He knew this from experience, beau'', hundreds had applied to him for relief, and he 113' no doubt but that numbers had applied to other Ofisi cerse who lnirtio means 'OD-reriF,TlFFrretail beyona the day. Now, if the nutriber of Seamen to be ell ploxed svas.increased,.itewould afford _employme„"c to numbers pf tliuse men. Iliete was another ch• cumstance to which he 'wished to call the atrentiod of the House . , and that was, that some greater stiP ; port should be given, to men who had been woo d ,' ed, and'who were unable .to get their bread. su o rnspitili wasallowed only t:),O7u l. a?y t-Pen e s a io r n , ers from Greenw' - i" H which was not ni o than was given to an ordinary servant, also provided with food; but it was certainly 11 °' who‘n,are6 enough for a man who had lost a limb, and sf , ho was i therefore unable .to. work. Greenwich Hosp ital was at present full ; but in his .opinion, it would Wi t only be cheaper to maintain men-as Out-pensione drs than in - the +instal, but it would -hare this"adi-e tional good effect, that it would facilitate the.Pi s . :' ing of men, if it was found that ,those Wain li" 3 "; served faithfUlly and fought bravely, were e oshie° to return home with a comfortable provision."' Under the present circumstances, men were discos' tented, though he was sure that neither the disno - df Ministers nor of the House was wanting to relieve them, but it, was necessary ma nit general wish of the 'House and of• the Country in to some shape, ,to enable those men to Cease being 3 burthen upon their friends' and upon their Officer s ' The reason. why_ he thought it necessary that 0 ° N.lvy should be in• such a state as that it might be promptly equipped for service arose from the rata' bability . of ;.4 renewal of hostilities in ca-e (4 . sod den .change in the Government of another u. however averse the Government of that C. e: might he at present from War ; and he was incli to give credit to the assertions of those who had re' cently been upon the Continent, and-had giien it 3 ' their' opinion, that the Government of Fran ce ; was by no means anxious for the renevval War. People of every Country Were, he believed! now tired, were tired of uselessly lavishing •th e blood of their.fellow-creatures. It was undoubtedli true that the Government of Franee, was a Mil l ' tary Government, but. Military men- were atii { : us t to obtain some respite after their labours in I l e , country as well as in this.- But it was not ° ll their own personal feelings — that gO-17r—ned thenr/ but it was . au aversion to see thousands of til e ' fellow. creatures killed in contests that decided nO thing. Many of the French Officers with. he had conversed agreed with him in this oFini o l and had often declared to him, that they often . fan "; even victories to be painful things. He belie ved' was the wish, it certainly was the interest of t h c present Government of France, to preserve Peace'. and if we were placed in a situation to be read, t oppose them with effet, that. interest. would ce:j mainly be stronger. But that which' had hanP en before might happen again; and it was knows rs sudden changes had taken place in the Governip en d Of France : he had himself been present at tss' o ,. 'e t ' those changes, and he declared that they rese-clb re more the sudden 'changes of scenery' in a ,the ac o f than any thing else. He had had an opportunitY observing, when those great changes were prel'arifl'e: that the Gaolers were also busily_ employed in P i f er. paliog e lodgings for additional prisoners. Wh en `, were asked whom they expe6ted, they a n s wered t' os did not know, brit that violent discussions were g°.,11,c on, and they might have Carnor, or they have other great men, hut they were sure to b ' hr e somebody, and they were always sure to be rig be They might not know the persons who might to committed •to their, charge, but they VIICT su rc o , have Some prisoners on the night they expeded 0 „, and this was particularly the case on the day "11 l is in their gibberish, they call the 18th Frottidor.r.cf...‘ was astonishing to see-with what ease 'and ioai o ,„ ence events of this kind were treated in that Cileir try ; men came forward with bloody daggers hands, and - declared they were only the Ataors o , those scenes, but were not either Authors . o r M` jl ot e gers. In fad, the whole seemed to the M than a dramatic representation; they got LIP ° ie .-- ever they thought might hit the popular r 1 1 , 99 of whether it was the, of Czsar, the" Byzantium, or the March of Alexander. B" out they wanted to please particularly, they aw" ( as i o n of' their stock an old piece, called the Inv of Britain, "which was always sure to nle a u s t of These things had their effect, and • o w n s, 28,000,000 of Men, 409,000 could, by these n' be persuaded to volunteer in . an Invasion n f t a, t le s Country, they might give us a greatdeal of tr f : .t , o f though they could .pot, ifour Navy was its as` is readiness.. He confessed he should not en t if • any thing like the same apprehensions of ":" . 0 f o ', she was confined within her 'widen! ° I thiS plain reason—Preparations for inva . sien j 0 n ods the Ports of France must be extremely linsiroo'.urthern cularlyein any of the Ports opposite to_tbcesqn ees s e Coast of England; on. account of the,snla' or the harbours, and the want of a sufficie nt deP in4 water.. He had had art o pportunity, from of stationed a considerable time Upon the .fin Chet France, to make accurate observations harbours, and he was enabled to calculate %v.'` t hat c taint that the greatest number of vessels 40, a te - leave any of these harbours at one time was , ' t iols. that could only be done by the mechanical of drawing them out from the piers..—And e' ra-- re , 01 3 d e „G' • 0 number' could only come from Havre- , „ le er account of the depth of water-continui i ng tid e that`harbour, where what was called tae 513_ ioc o ; 35 r ot lasted three hours. But this sort of f o nt % to be dreaded if our Navy was in 4 statc°f r_ u ea t, th e y they might be destroyed if th e y carnetuosreser; mighty even be destroyed in the harbou rs on e l% li mit coast. Upon these grounds he s hould [ l . ,v_ n apprehension if. France. wase extremely ancient limits; bur - the case was r _ , p os sess' when France, in addition to her own Po , r ,k s In k ac ti ed of those Holland. 'He did not ' l i t beco se 0 13 4 France posses - sing the ships Of Hoilan°2, l _ No y, b.U .5 AVoulti Only fend to increase . the Britly,. of ser iou subject- •IV the possession of her Polls ryas" a nze rn udder). c consideration. Suppose any s confined witn ir , rent, li r , t had a whicl wouh a" se,, ; t iro t r . 1 4 , ot use th e %v a ab, t o , b o the