The Sun. — London, England, 1802-06-15 00:00:00

r 6 Trecii that 1113 . 93' reforms . !tad been mile in. e ethe collet - tie:l of, the Revenue in Ireland, from which much had arisen, and much . was to be expelled. Its the Eetimates he had made he teas borne out by the. experience of one material . fad, which was, tharethe produce of the Revenues for the last five months had exceeded that of the . , the preceding fare months by 431,000 1 . He was ... surely therefore justified in taking credit for an in , 'crease of Revenue for the'whole at 800,0001. If the adual Produce should not equal the Estimate, he trust ed he should be able to answer it in another Session Of Parliament ; but if any calamity 'was the cause Cf- that deficiency, which he hoped stile, blessing of Providence would avert, tie trusted he should not be held responsible for it. It was to be considered in what state the Trade of Ireland was at the pre.. sent moment; the Imports had excessively increased, Whilst the Exports had materially diminished. The Exports of Ireland were to he considered under three Articles, Linen, Provisions, and Corn ; the 'test were trifling. The Linen ' Trade had suffered 'greatly f rom t he effeds of the Rebellion, ancisfioan the high prices demanded for the Article ; the for, [ . . mer cause had however maw ceased to Operate ; and with reseed to the latter, the Irish Drapers were POW convinced, that the high price lately demanded had operated considerably to their own injury.--: With resped to the Provision Trade,. the War de mand had ceased, whilst the Peace Exportation was not yet restored. The official value of provisions exported had been 'reduced from 1,200,0001. to Soo,oool. but when the Peace Exportation. was completely restored, there was every reason to be lieve there would be an addition. of 250,0001. and it was to be reeolleded,.that the official value-re, inained always the same, whilst it might be fre quently estimated at only one-third of the real , Value. The Export of Corn had heel in former years 60e5,060.1. and 500,0001. and was in 1799, 140,0001, ...During the last year the reverse was the case—there. was not only no Export, but Corn was imported into Ireland to the amount of 260 ,0001. This was catised by the scarcity by which. Ireland was ;Aided, but if they looked 4o the situation of that 'conntry as it was for s )1 '" 1 Y , and calculated upon an Export of Corn to ,the amount of 360,0001_ this added to the 260,0001. 'the amount• of the Import during the last year, Would make a difference in favour -of that Country of 620,0001. • He teas evaeranted in supposing, and ;hod every reason to believe, that 'lreland would -again return to its former state, with respect to its .. Revenues and its Trade ; and the experience of a 'short time past, was a sufficient ground for that belief; and that the wise measures of Parliament 'with resPedoooliat Country, would contribute:to the comfort of Great Britain, :and the . happiness of . Ireland. He had 'only to add to. the Ways and 1 \ leans, the Interest of the Loan, for the payment of which Taxes were to be provided.. He could not foresee the extent of the Peace Establishment ; if it would afford the means of diminishing the bur dens ofireland, he should be peculiarly happy, but he could only propose 'Faxes to meet the exigencies of IV - 40 - iiiishiesThe Tasfes he proposed were, .ararupon ; Exports, the : 4 ime as in this Country, passed dur. in , the present Sessioneeand'a Tax upon Imports,' the same as here ; with the exception - how.; ever of some Articles. With respect tee this he had one observation to otitke ; the Union'between . ' the.two Countries could not be coiriplete;\ i t least ~ as far as Financial Interests were coocerned, as the s burdens, of the United Empite must be borne by each Country, in proportion to the ability and, means of that Country. Equality of Taxetioli could not take plaCe, but the system • must be ap_ Plied in proportion to the means and resources of each ; thus the Exchequers of the two Countries Were d,stinti, as must lats their Taxation. - At the same time, if Parliament were to stop here, it would stop at a narrow and confmid system of Ns 'icy, es•undoubteshy if a system could be devised, applying, to both Countries, and 'placing them on an equally fair 'footing,. that system ought to be .adopted. In this case he did not admit that an Export and Ise ort Tax otight to be paid ii Ireland, .because it was paid in this Country, it was not necessary ores.thet occoont, , but as .additional Taxes were necessary in Ireland, he was happy in Proposing those which .. would . accord with , the Taxe s adopted by this Country. The total value of foreign goods imported into Ireland • was -1-)445,00b1 . ' ' alid of the Exports of Ireland 3, 3 0 4,275. The pro duce of the .proposed Tax on Torsigis goods imported,- he estimated at 93,900% : rind on Exports to Foreign Countries {the Trade With Great Britain being in each case of course excluded) . at 5,3001. making together the sum of 99,0001. It was proposed , to ' exempt from the operations of the Tax on Imports, Ashes, Smelts, FlexsSeed, Hemp,. and Salt ; • and from the Duty on Exports, Cotton Goods and Corn. With , resped toe Tonnage Tax'in Ireland, the attual Ton, Tinge of Ireland was not more than too,Oote tons, Which would not produce more than 70001. the rest - balthe Tonnage employed' was -British, and the British Ship.owners, in calling for a Tax on Irish Ton. Page, overshot the mark ;.fur it would be in fad Only an additional Tax upon themselyes, the far greater part of the Talmage employed in: that • Lo4otry being their own. He , thought these 'f axes would not be found burden Some on that class who were least able to bear ;toy additicinal butdee, but that they would, on the contrary, fall upon another' Mass able to bear them,' and upon whom chest' would Press ve r y' lightly.' He concluded by moving his Ysesolutions respecting die proposed `faxes. , e Mr. 'FOsrE R said, it was with ;regret he found himself under the necessity of differing front the Right lion. Gentlemen with resped to many of his most importatit statements, anti from some of the conclusions which he had drawn as proceeding f r ( - ) en these, the truth of which he otherwiSe ad- touted. Aiel first, with. respett to She debts cone traded on tiie part of Ireland within the two 'last Yearsehe had to observe, that only Two Millions anti , a Half were, horrowed lase year, ;Ind Three Millions 4" a Half borrowed for the present, though the. expences of the latter were acknowledged, to be ' considerable less than those of the former ; the in Terence to be -drawn from thFi measure was too V.) . v ions Jo ni he etititeled. ' With respss t to the Right Hon. Cs'eetiesnasos Est-it-mite of the vrob:thit amount to which the revenue of Ireland wil be raised by the *additional taxes just proposed, he also differed, froM him ; the Right Hon., Gentleman took credit for an increase of-206,6601. as the pro duce of the Tax upon the Distilleries,' the consump_ tion of the Country under that head, hoWever, was by no. means so great as he rated , it to be; evcoat any period,: such a quantity. was never consumed; aind with a reference-to the industry, the morals, or the tranquillity of the Country, it would be very injurious' if it should.:lt could not prove a financial resource to that amount, and still less, when it were considered that the exports cif the Country Were decreasing. He would howeVer;, for the sake olargument, ad mit it to be - 666,0001. which 'would increase the re venue to the round sum of'chree Millions, but even in that. view ' it be compared with the amount of preceding years, and the falling.ofFwill easily be seen. In the year ending the - 25th March I Soo, the nett Reienue, fell st;8061. and the two preceding years, the debts of the Country were so far aug.. Mented, :as to increase the interest payable by Ire_ land "to a considerable amount. With respel to the Revenue of the last year, taking it at 2,466,0601. the - sum of i,z00,0601. was liable to he issued on the score of debt. To cpunterad the evil tendency of such a systeM of finance, and to place the Coun try in. a prosperous situation, other meatis were ne cessary, than those lately resorted to. • A different system of taxation should- be adopted, and the pow ers of the Sinking -Fund increased. In the .last year, Taxes to the.amount of 57,0001. were taken off in consequence of the Union, and by the remis sion of the Ab'sentee Tax, 12,0001. were lost to Ireland ; the resources - of the Comm) , were thus lowered, contrary to every principle of sound finance, which with other measures of a like impoli_ tic tendency, brought that Country into its pre sent embarrassed situation. „It were proper the relative situation or that Country should be known, and the full extent of financial contribution, which sound policy required her to siipply. With regard to the colledion of the Revenue's, in 1782, the Charge was at the rate of t 11.. 1 z,. 4d. per Cent. what was the difference at:present I The Rove. nues of the Post-Office were colle6ted at the enormous rate of 2241. per cent. ,He knew the •subjeti to be a dry one, but still its great importance should ensure attention. He threw no blame upon the Officers employed in the Collation ; he believed they did their duty—still he had to re. mark that in a late year, when' the Revenue pro. duced soo,oool. less than that preceding, the num bers and salaries of the Revenue Officers were con siderably increased ; this formed a striking con mist with certain arrangements in England, when in cases where the revenues had incte; - ised, the expences of colleCtion were diminished. lii t 800, in Ireland the amount of PensionS, . Grants, &c. on this score were at 34,0001. In t 802 they amounted to s t,oool. and this increase of 17,0061. was in a falling year. He had also to remark the immense defalcation of certain duties, and some of which wire of that kind that could not be evaded, which could proceed from no other cause thin that melancholy one of the ina bility of the inhabitants to pay them. In some cases the Bounties on Exports were counteracted by the in- • crease of Fees allowed to Officers. It was distress_ ing to him that he could not entertain the same ideas with the' Right -Hon. Gentleman on many of . those points. It was the first time in which he re gularly came forward on such an occasion, that he could not state the progressive prosperity &Ireland. The Exports of that Country for the five years cod ing With 1799, fell more than one. half of what they amounted to in foimer years. ' In the year ending with tt8.60, the fables were fairly turned, and the alliance of Trade was clearly against Ire- . land. In aot it was still more so. The decrease of the Exports of Ireland in the important ar ticle of Linens was truly alarming. In the last year the: decrease was five millions.of yards, com pared with the number of the preceding year, and he rather feared its decline in .the ensuing year ; the decrease in the Article of Provisions, may, in some degree; be attributed to the opera. . tiotrof the War, and the cessation of increased de. niand ; , but on that head he , would not lay much -stress. HoWever, there were tither articles of im portance which. he feared were itlino“ totally lost to Ireland, that of New. Drapery for instance, 'in to hich there wait a gradual diminution in the num ber of yards exported, and which, in 1801, was so low as to be only .40:,c) yards ; other Imports, an the contrary, were ihereasingand , with re sped to Old I)rape;y, the case in principle was nearly the . same.' Added to these disadvantages, was that of the Exchange. which, in the last filar years, was about 12 per Cent. against Irelited.— This may be occasioned by the restraint Capon the Export of Specie, the increase of :Absentees, and the unfavourble balance of Trade, , but, above ail; it was owing to the' newly-adopted mode of Fi nance, the . not raising the Taxes within the year, and the negotiating the Loani in Great Since 1797, 23 millions . were borrowed here, and in consequence, t,200,6001. per annum, were brought out of that Country was More than the average ballanee of trade, and a misfortune which, he feared, it was not now in their, power to remedy. Did this system of Finance-continue, he knew not how the trade and manufaCtures of Ire. land were to go on. It was true, the Country ceived a 'temporary relief, from the Wax of princi. when that source ceased, the destru6ive e Weds of the system will be mare clearly perceptible. In this resped the contrast between the respective situation .of the two Countries would be strikieg indeed : the financial circumstances of England, an her emerging from the most tremendous War that ever any Country was engaged in, were such as .re dounded to the credit of their' Administratir3n; :and the operations of the Sinking Funds oldie respective Countries, were to be contrasted- in the. like man ner. At the commencement, the Sinking Fund of England was in the proportimeof a 238th part to,•the itinount tif Debt to - be 'redeemed ; by the prudent management of it, it 'now bears a proportion of the 'eighty-fnu:th part. Compare the situation oaf Ireland in that resped ; at first its Sinking Fund was a loth pArt of its debt ; it is now so r: tweed as only to be a ooth partHe yet had a favourable oninion of the ,tesour . ,.6 of ireiand, were. they but ably a dministered-:--In corisideting this part of the ,‘Abje , :t, what in , !:t the situation of the countries he it the end of the twee , ran. when by the At i cif Uuiori proportionable rate of Criottibtition should cease The . Debt of England will be re.. dueed. to three buodred millions, whereas, tinder the present' system of finance, 'that of Ireland will be itiereased, the two Countries will love to commence their partnership equal. terms,. the one rioher, and the other poorer, than at-, the period when the conttat‘,t of TeTilioo was ori ginally made ethe consequences must lie destrUdive lithe, Borrowing System went on much longer—the Supoiies . niuSt.be raised within the, year. , With re . sped to some of the arguments pressed by the Right' lion. Gentleman, some alterations "in the Taxes upon Imports may well tie. made ; .and with respect to those as they affected the Linen 'Trade, they were 'liable to some objections. lie thought time •Linen Trade ~of Irelaral shouh he placed ' m the same footing as the Cotton Trade of Great Britain in those respells. He should not enter into particulars in the present circum stances ; it would unnecessarily delay the Com. mittee. lipon the whole he should vote for the Resolutions, with the exception of that ree Laing to the Article of Linens ; so far from disap. oroviog generally of what had beeh proposed as (Ikea Taxes, he assured the Right Hon. Gentleman if he should propose new duties which did not ob. 'viously clash with the interests 'of 'lreland, he should, have supported them. Mr. WlCKll4lll.obfierved, that he most pro bably should not have risen in the present Debate, had not some' points -which had fallen fi-om the Right Honourable Gentle Man rendered it' neces, sary. He should even consider it as shrink ing from his official duty not only with re.: spcd to himself, but to a Right . Honourable Gen-, Orman high,in the estimation of that , House and' of the Public:, did he remain silent. He alluded to what was said of the, considerable increase recenily made-in the head of Pensions and Salaries': it that charge was well-founded, it would. be incumbent on the Committee to 'inquire, whether there, were just causes of not for 'such an increase. In this re. speift, however, the fads were such, as that he could safely say, that never was a 'system of internal Ad ministration for the affairs of any Country bettor arranged or digested, not only with a reference to considerations of public economy, as . that , which he received from his estimable predecessor in Office, — (a general "cr . y el hear ! hear 1 . ,) not only, that, but the most aaive and Well-digested measures were in a state of forwardness for increasing the revenues, and on plans the most economical as to 'its collection. ;_The Right Hon. Gentleman had asserted that in which he was not borne out by any official docu. nears, or authentic accounts whatever. 'With re. sped to his comparisons of the amount of charges incurred in the two last years, they were founded on no authentic documents hitherto sent from Ire. lard. Some of ,those plans to which he had alluded were for the express purpose of reducing the ex. ponces of:collet - ling the Revenues, and -on prin:. allies the most politic and efficacious ; among theSe was-to be reckoned the nrratigemeimt with resped to the Revenue Officers, and supplying' the 'places of those who were' superannuated, or otherwise unfit Tor duty, with active and proper Officers. With re- T eo ,to what the Right Hon.*Gentleman had in of a progessiVe decrease of the Revenue, — he could contradict him from official and authentic do— coMents, that even within the last five months, the whole of what was due within that period, had.not been received. There was an increase in the propor tion Of 4.00,0001. and certaioly, what had been ex. pended so as to produce this increase, was laid out to the most ialutary purpose. Mr. CORRY observed, that in what the Right Hon. Gentleman had rendered it necessary' for him 'to say, he should be as concise as possible. With respect; to 'the deficiencies adverted to by the Right Hon. Gentleman in certain Taxes, in his mode of stating the case, such certainly appeared to exist ; but he 'should luck recollected that It was .princi pally owing to the new mode of colleding them, by which all that was adualiy due did not appear within the given -periods ; such was the case with the Hearth and Window Taxes,.'and even with the Se r vants and the Carriage Duties, the surplus came into the Revenue as computed for this .year; but for which no allowance hid been made by the Right Hon. Gentlemart.—With milted to the ex peaces of the collection increasing. from 1 I to 13 per cent. the .Right Hon. Gentleman was surely not ignorant that these included ail the charges'of Management, the repayments to the Merchants and the drawback. In regard to the arrangements with rasped to the Revenue Officers; they were such as be could justly take a pride in; the regulations were founded in sound policy. The Post. Office depart , merit, so forcibly dwelt upon, the Right , Hon. Gen. tlenian knew was, other an object of revenue, the increased expellees of colledion in that department were unavoidable, front the calamitous situation in Which the Country was . plunged at those periods ; in some instances the performance of that duty in. the usual 'way.' Was impossible ; ContradOrs were necessarily employed ; but where the duty was perfOrmeil by the Office itself, the increase of Ex..; pence was comparatively small. The Right Hon. Gentleman ; in has statement of the 'faxes lost by the Union, had unfortunately not looked on both sides of. the account : so fax from there being tt.cie -licit on that head, there :was an increase to:lreland of '26,0001.. in one-year. With resped to the ba lance being against Ireland, as 'stated by the. Right Ron. a!ntleman, a great deal of that was (Ming tai thoincfeased Importation of Corn, pal ticularly it 1800) a circumstance which in all;probabdity would not occur to the same extent again : the increased importation of old and new Drapery was in a great degree to be accounted fin by tho:,e circumstances which had entirely exhausted the. Country, Annihi.; hated the petty shops in all parts, in copsoquencc.of which, a number of 'Adventurers soon otterharkeia in the Woollen - drapery Trade, among which, irwas unnecessary to observe, that at nom; her of failutes ensued„ several other sources Of de, cr.cate, 'my lie attributed to the like- temporary,. or removeitble :causes, widon any day when the House had leisute,- :mod. the Right 1-1 Gentleman chose, he would meet him it., ral'oarai, and on, every item of this subjea. V , ;;!.P mpea to the system ' of Loans, en xvh:;!‘ so much st'ettss was laid, a.r,l the' mode (if taxation lately adopted, he :11titilti have 'to trouble, the Committee • t i t „ vAth o n tt„gart. 4 to t i ,e. set) jen, the flit t year, he C:itait-; into ore:e.e. is 3,;(1 It? ',faith:. air by tatationi and ftiott which he propthed covered 'more 't!%l:i. 400,0001. "Phis was dene in the midst hellion, and in its worst perio'!s : he nev.n. from the disastrous prospea--he was taw:lie:died by the difiiculties of the monicil t-he 5t0,%1 in los }lace, and prepOsed tii tletf na,;,,,,,0r of what was called for : that did nor Aa l. 1!" 'On cal p os in ao i r niry. He had to encounter fis•: addi. tional difileolties of years in which the cuc;nen_ shin of the Distilleties dried up some of !;•t: most produlive sources of, ReOtine ; this accon,ecti to t , the deficiencies of one year; in the next they .. , :ere less, and these obvious causes, the Right . i,,nourable Gentleman in candliar should have considered....- 11fficiencies in certain oxes were no uncommon thing, even in this ntolsperons Country,' and in this very year his Right Honourable Friend tOund it, necessary to make provisions under that head. With respell to the system of the Loans, the Right Hon. Gentleman :seemed to forget the circumstances of the unprecedented 'distress in which Ireland was recently involved, and in his argument he assumed that the Loans could have been raised in Ire. land ; but what were the notorious faas ? At a . period„when: it was proposed to raise the compara. tively small Loan of 1,500,e001, in Ireland, there were two sets of bidders, one Irish, the other English ; the former wlis preferre4 and what was the consequence, the Irish Contractor was obliged to abandon his LOan, and forfeit his deposit of 75,6601.—This certainly was no proof that money could be had. In the present year, there were one set of Irish, and five of English bidders; if the former was preferred, they tnust have the Loan on their own terms.--.He Must deny that the re. minting of the interest of these Loans waspne of the causes of the distress of Ireland ; and, 'to esta. blish this poSition, argued at some length, and with considerable ability .—Theinteresi found its way into this Country thrOugh the ordinary channels of Cenimerce, and such he contended, was the peen. niary circumstances of Ireland, that the original stock was frequently sent to the English market.— As far as this operated to the disadvantage of Ire. land, it was unavoidable, : and resulted from the relative situation of the two 'Countries—the differ. ence whether the money was remitted through the medium' of Government or of individuals, was not of sucli vast importance, still less upon a fair examina. tiOn of the question, would the Right .Hotf. Gen. tletnan be borne out in his unqaalitied anttr. lions ; his candour shnuld have suggested an.. other language' to him, particularly when the circumstances attending the Loan of zBOO, were in his recollection :—the came line of reil j srin.. tng would apply. to the Loan of the present yeae. A great propOrtion of its interest would be remitted through the channel of private bankers, and as a part of the balance of trade. In reptd to what had been said of the regulations respeaing the Linen Mae, the Right Hon. Gentleman would see that, in a great degree, the raw material was exempted, and that every praaicable step was taken to place that important branch of the Trade of Ireland on a.secure and advantageous footing. Mr. TIERNEY elyressed his opinion that some important parts of the Right Hon. Gentleman's ar. gument were not ' satisfactorily answered by the Chancellor 'of the Irish Exchequer : it seemed as if, on those, points, the latter did not controvert the conclusions of the former, but argued, that as the circumstances operated to the disaddritage ,of Ireland, they were 'unavoidable.. Mr. PANSITTART argued at some length in 4 O. • • sOpport of some' of the ptismons !Ili Right Hon. Friend, and particularly with respek to what related to the Loans, which 'the Right Hon. Gen. tleman himself knew it was inapratficable. to raise in Ireland, neither could he think that ,the temis. Sion of the Interest to this Cotintry wofild, under all the circumstances of the case, be attended with those disadvantageous circumstances to Ireland, so strenuously insisted on by the kt. Hon. Gentleman. Mr. BO Yo made a few observations generally to the same effea. _ Mr. ARC UDALL in the course of his observa_ tions upon the subject, said that such of his Coml. trymen as were so unfortunate as to promote rebel lion, must neees`sarily suffer ; and as to taxation, seasons of war and rebellion must obviously be un favourable to it.' The Right Hon, Gentleman ra ther inconsistently censured Government for its system of borrowing in this Country, when the whole course of his argument went to prove that no money was to be got in Ireland. Lord CASTLEREACJI observed, that tittlight Hon. Gentleman seemed to undervalue the extfttats made by Ireland for.the liquidation of her debts, and, he supposed, most erroneously,that while England vaneed in liquidation, Ireland retrograded. The fad however was, that the Sinking Fond of Ireland was greater in proportion than that of this,Country. r in. asutuch ;is it was in the relative proportion ,of 70 to 238; the progress made by each Country was in the same proportion, namely, t pet Cent. on their respeaive capitals. lflreland had not cleared off so much in proportion, it was because her Sinking Fund was, oat so long established as that of I , :ng. land ; and 'itt the expiration of the twenty years, the system of Debt and Taxation should be in propor. ' trot) to the relative ability of each Country., Neither had' the Psight I-fon:Gentleman 111 . ) , right to assurm, that the Sinking Punkt of Ireland= would bc inoper.itive during that period, and the circum. stance of there being a larger proportion of 5 per Cent. Stock in the Irish Funds than in the gritildt, Was in that point of view 'advantageous to the former Count r y. A conversltion was then coritinued on the. sub. jets of the 'Trade, Finance, <<n4 Public-. Accounts 01 Ireland supported by Mr.. Fus'rtx, Mr. Co RAY, Mr. Boy °, and Mr. VlLottiAlst . ; time latter. Oen. ttetnin c i mplaining that Mr. Fu vi tit, to suit the purposes of his argument for time moment', either pr4ise,i or blamed the Officers lithn'tnade no the Ac.. i::attrits of the Finance of Ireland, ine , smile persons becoming tho objects at h; panegyric at censure, as 'if might hlyi , en to suit the turn of the obseriitition he was making; in Mr. FosTutt insisting on his . done nothing hot what an uptightl*lnbet Lt' l'%itliament was cancel upon to do. The Resolations'wtre then all pat and voted. . .