The Sun. — London, England, 1802-02-18 00:00:00

IMPER IdL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS, WEDNESDAY, FEB. 17. CouNs were finally heard relative to the Scotch C-..r.klNtrotiAm, Barr. and others v. HIG GINS, Assignee of the Hon. HENRY ERSKINE, &c. namely, Mr. RoMILLY for the Respondents, and Mr. ADAM for the. Appellants in reply.—After which their Lordships deferred their judgment. upon the Case till this day sennight. Lord PELHAM presented copies of the various accounts referred to in His Majesty's . late Message respefting the state of the Civil List, which were ordered to lie on the Table. The various Bilis before the House were forward ed in their respe&ive stages.:--After which the House adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE O•F COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, FEB. 17. GENERAL G-SCOYNE presented two Petitions from the Corporation of Liverpool, for Bills to widen and improve the Streets, and ereft new Docks there—which were severally ordered to be referred to a Committee to consider the same, and report thereon. The Eel tilt was read a third time and passel, The Southern Whale Fishery Bill was also read a third time and passed. Mr. ALEXANDER_ brought up the Report of the EkchNyer Bills Bill—which was read and agreed to, and the Bill ordered to he read a third time to morrow. Mr. '\VINDHANt presented a Petition from the Veterinary College, *raying the aid of Parliament —which was ordered to lie on the Table. PETITIONS FOR PRIVATE BILLS. S;7- ,70HN CALLA NDER said, that a great n umber of Petitions for Private Bills were still be hind, and were not, from various causes, likely to arrive within the peridd limited by the House for the reception of Private Petitions. He therefore moved that the time for receiving Petitions for Pri vate Bills should be enlarged till Friday se'nnight. Mr. N. VANS ITTART complained of the delay which took place in bringing up Petitions for Private Bills, and the hindrance to Public Business, which increased from enlarging the time for their recep. tion. If a similar Motion was made in the next Session of Parliament, he should, he said, require some strong reason to be assigned before he gave his aisent. The Motion was then put and carried. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he rose in pursuance of a Notice he bad given to call the attention of the House to the subjed of the Civil List, .and referred to Papers which, by His Majesty's Commands, he had laid before the House. He observed, that if he were to follow the pradice which .had been pursued on similar occa sions, he should content himself, with making the same Motion as if this were a gracious Communica tion from His Majesty upon some political snbjed, that the Accounts now before the House be referred to a Committee of Supply ; but it .had occurred to him to be due to the House, to the Public, and, in deed, to His Majesty himself, that the circumstances which had occasioned such accumulation of debt, should he fully investigated and made public. He was fully convinced, that, if it should be the plea sure of the House to appoint a Committee for the investigation of this subjed, every Member in the House would be. convinced, that the causes of that accumulation were, in a great degree, unavoidable, • and that no sentiment, but that of regret, would be felt, by any Member of that House, on that occa. sion. It would be recolleded, that i 6 years had • now elapsed since arrangements were made, and a schedule prepared of the ,various branches of the Civil List. Let every Gentleman in the House re coiled, how, in that length of time, pecidiar cir cumstances had occurred, and had operated on the various branches of expenditure—in every way of viewing expenditure ; let them refer to their own domestic concerns—let them look dt those points which most immediately attracted the attention, and affected, in the most lively manner, the feelings of us all; and then they would not be at a toss to account for a large proportion, at least, of the debt of the Civil List, the particulars of which were laid before the House. , It would be inconsistent with the purpose he now had in view, which was that of recommending to the House the appointment of a Committee, to enter into minute particulars in this state of things : all that he wished now, was that the House should appoint a Committee for in_ quiring into this subjed, who would, of course, en ter into it, as the House would afterwards, when they came to peruse the labours of the Committee, without any predisposition or pre-conceived opi nion, with resped, either to the nature of the debt, or the circumstances which led to its accumulation. He was desirous of abstaining from every thing that might have the appearance of any anticipation, in the slightest degree, of what the Committee might do when they came to examine this subjed, but above all, he was desirous there should be no appearance of anticipation, as to what would be the judgment of the House upon it. Un der these circumstances, he indulged a hope, that in the present stage of the proceeding, no objedion would be offered to the course he was about to sub mit, that of making the subjed a matter of inquiry before a Committee. If utter a Committee should have been appointed, any Gentleman should 'desire it, an interval shotbd be allo , ,veil betweerl the time of making the Report and that of discussing, the subjed, as large as the candour of any such person could desire ; and when the Report should be taken into consideration, •as ample and as minute an in vestigation should take place, as tile importance of the Subjed should require. He shoUld now move, !‘• That a Committee be appointed to take into con *ideration the several Accounts presented yesterday ,to this House by Mr. CHANCELLOR, of the Exc HE- Azetrit, by His Majesty's Command, relative to the Civil _List ; that they do examine the saidAccOue• • eeee, and zepat; the same, as it shall appear to them; toge , „ thee with their obse.rvations:thereuixini tcctlie The Question being pat, Mr. MANNERS SUTTON said, he trusted it would not be thought improper in him, if for a few minutes he trespassed upon the attention of the House, by referring to some circumstances relative to the Affairs of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, and which appeared to him to he material for the consideration of the House. Every Member of that House knew that the title of the Duke of Cornwall was part of the possessions' of the Crown until the birth of the eldest Son ; that immediately after such birth, the title separated from the Crown, and became vested in His Royal Highness. He is born Duke of Cornwall, was proprietor of all the rights, and vested witls all the privileges that are incideht to that Dutchy; of course its , revenues are to be . secured to him, and to be made to accumulate dur ing his minority. In the case of His Royal High- ness, .the present Prince, these.funds had not been so secured, nor had any such profit's so accumulated, for they had been applied in aid of the Civil List, and the Civil List must have had other resources if these profits had not been applied in aid of it. Although, in poiht of form, this had been said to be a question between His Majesty and the Prince of Wales, but that was a mere form, for the sub stance of the matter aias between His Royal High ness and the Public ; for the Public had, in reality, received the revenues of the Dutchy of Cornwall. If indeed this could in any way of considering it, be called a question between His Royal Highness and His Majesty, he would 'venture to assert, that the House of Commons would .never have heard of it, for. he knew the disposition of His Royal Highness to be such, that he would most readily sacrifice his interest to his feelings : the regard and affeetion he bore for the King was such, as could not allow him to make any peCuniary concern a matter of contest between him and his Royal Parent. Mr. SUTTON said, he had in the discharge of his .duty, on a former occasion alluded to the sentiments entertained by His Royal Highness towards His Majesty, and the House might be assured, that these were the unaffdled sentiments of His Royal Highness. This was a claim of right which His Royal Highness had upon the Public for property which belongs to him, and which had been appro- • protted to the Public Use. When he stated the • title of the Prince of Wales, that of Duke of Corn wall, and his right . to all that belonged to the Dutchy of .Cornwall, and his own opinion upon that right, which opinion was of no weight, yea the matter was not to rest there, fer it was the opinion of one of the most eminent in the Pro fession of the Law, qne of 'the most experienced men at the Bar, one of the most learned men the Profession ever ha', he meant Mr. MANSFIELD, that His Royal Highness was entitled to every thing that belonged to the Dutchy of Cornwall, in the most ample manner that the claim was ever made. He had given his opinion entirely in favour of His Royal Highness the Prince of WaleS. He was aware, that when this question was considered some years ago, two persons, very high in their Profession, had given opinions, if not the other way, yet they had expressed doubt upon this mat ter ; but the whole case, he presumed, was not before them when they entertained that doubt; but if the same points had been before them as had been before Mr, Maas-sat E LD, the Noble Lord al luded to would have been of another opinion, as he believed was his Right Hon. and Learned Friend on his left hand, the MASTER of the Roaas. The amount of the revenue from the year 1762, the time of the birth of the Prince of Wales, until the year 1783, would have amounted to little less than 400;0001. calculating it at the rate of interest which might be made of it either on Government, or on other and real security. Continuing it until now, the same revenue would have amounted to near 900,0001. Now he knew it might be said that - some dada - lions should be made for expences of the Prince of Wales during his minority, and two small sums of i2ooool. and t 6,0001. advanced to His Royal Highness's Privy Purse. There - was no separate provision made for the Establishment of the Prince of Wales, .until the. year 1781---yet giving credit for every allowance or advance made for His Royal Highness, there would now remain due to him between 6 and 700,0001. Now the provisions that had been made to the Prince of Wales, from tine to time, as Heir Apparent to the Crown, had not been fully, considered. When His 'present . Majesty attained his age of oven s ty-one, 60,0001. were voted to defray his ex. peaces.--295,000!. were voted in all for His Royal Highness, but after ded&ling the sums laid out on Carlton-house, which, by to way, was not the . property of the Prince, but an improvethent of the property of the Crown, His Royal Highness would then not have above 250,0001. ;. short, very short, indeed, of what was really due to the Prince in 1783. He should not enter minutely into partied lars—but let the House compare the slims voted for the present Heir Apparent, with those voted for his predecessors. In the year 1742, ioo,oool. a-year were voted for the support .f Frederick Prince of Wales, the father of His present Majesty : at that time His Majesty was the eldest son of the Prince of Wales, and only four years. of age. The suns was not voted on account of the expence of his ' family, but only in consequence of the rank and distiation' which the Prince of Wales was then to support. Now the Income of the Prince of Wales in 1783, was only so,oool. In . 1787 it was 60,0001. and on his Marriage it was increased to 120,c901. out of which 75,0001. was appropriated by Ad of Parliament, for the liquidation of his Debts. How much His Royal Highness had been obliged to re duce his Establishment, in order'to come within his limited Income, was well known. When he stated the Income of His Royal,Highness, and compared it with the Income of his Grand-father in the year 1742, which was 1 oo,000l.• and which was not thought more than sufficient for .the 'support of the Heir Aparent, and when the House came to consider the difference of price in every article of the necessaries as well as s the luxuries of life, it would appear perhaps matter of surprize that. the Income of the Prince of Wales had not been coosidetably increased. He hoped, in making this Statement to. ..... i the' . .houae, he should not be suppgaed to say any thing' Chit: should excite an idea either • that His Royal Flv,hness - felt, or That he was authorized to express any disappointment. or dissatisfaaion, 0 . ; to make any application to the House relating to the. affairs of His Royal Highness ; on the contrary, His Royal Highness felt strongly impressed with gratitude to the House, for every thing that had been clone for him; and His Royal Highness was con vinced, that whenever his concerns had been-before them, the House had discharged its duty faithfully to the Public, anti in a manner highly honourable to themselves, as well as favourable to His Royal Highness. But Mr. SoxTost said, he thought it right that the Public should know the fads as they applied to the circumstances and affairs of His Royal Highness ; by which, be trusted, it would appear, S that, great as the expences of the Heir Apparent necessarily must be, they had been borne by His Royal Highness himself; that they had not fallen heavily On the Public, and in one word, that His Royal Highness had not added any thing to the difficulty of the times, which all classes of His Majesty's SubjeCts had so lately felt—He hoped the House would be of opinion, that considering the nature of the station which His Royal Highness had to fill, looking at it in the point of view, he had taken the liberty of placing it, his Royal Highness had not received more than he was entitled to, but on the contrary, there was a balance in his: favour, and that in short he was a Creditor, not a Debtor of the Public. --- It was his object, Mr. SUTTON said, to take away any wrong impression which might' have been made on some part of the Public with reference to the affairs of his Royal Highness---of the concerns of that Illustrious Personae, in whose honour and wet. fare every Member of that House must feel a deep interest, as being united with that of the Country itself,--He hoped his zeal had not led hiin to mis represent any thing whatever upon this subjeds I either in suppressing what was important, or expatiating improperly upon . what was defectively stated. He hoped he had not said any thing that might have the effect of embarrassing the Executive Government, 'or of throwing any obstacles in the way of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was sure, that if he had made any observation that had that tendency, he had misrepresented his own wishes entirely, and he was as far from complying . with the wishes of His Royal Highness as of his • own, if any thing he' had said either had that tqh,. ' dency, or could-be supposed to have it.—He could not think of embarrasSing His Majesty, nor , could he 'be supposed to have said any thing to that effect, nor should his conduct justify any such thought, if any such could be entertained; for •he had no plan to offer, nor any thing to propose to the House upon this subject. • He could not think of saying any thing against the Ministers of the Government of this Country ; it was composed of men, for whose public and private charaders he had the highest esteem. There was no blame what ever imputable to the Cesa.NcssLoß of the Ex. CHEQUER. It was not the province of the CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER to assert this Claim on the part of His Royal Highness, which claim had not, indeed, been ever effeetually made. If the House. should ever think proper farther to investigate this matter, it would be his duty, as it was his anxious wish, to give to the House every assistance in his power, but the discussion of this im portant subjed would come with more propriety from some Gentleman more known to the 14'nuse, and of more weight in it than himself; and if the House should ever take the question up, he . was confident they would consider it fully, freely, and impar tially ; that the House would look at the interests of His Royal Highness, as they really were, closely and inseparably connected with their own.—They could not neglect a single point in them without also ne gleding the interest of the Public, which the House could not negled. ' The honour and interest of the Prince was united to the honour and interest of the Public. Mr. FOX said, he should trouble the House with but a very few words upon this subjed, and he . thought the House were much obliged to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had introduced a part of the subjed, for the very clean and very able manner in which he had stated it; that is to say, the claims of His Royal -Highness the Prince of Wales. He agreed entirely with the Learned Gen. tleman in almost every word that had fallen from him upon that subjed, and every thing which he stated as connected with it ; and he did most sin. cerely hope the House would take up the matter which had been that day opened by that Hon. and Learned Gentle Man. He approved highly of the prudence and the wisdom of stating it in the way which it had been stated : he agreed with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that neither the House it. self; nor any person, either. in the former Admi nistration, perhaps, nor in the present Administra tion, .'ould be said to be strictly to blame upon this occasion. He certainly, however, agreed with the Learned Gentleman even in the prudence of not agi tating the question, whether any person was to blame or not. He agreed also with the Learned Gentleman, in his statement of the claims of His Royal Highness never having, been effeaually as serted; that they never were effedually asserted was .most true, but as he had had the honour of stating more than once his sentiments upon this subjed, he thought it due from him to the HoUse,he thought it due from him to hiniself,sto 'repeat what he had formerly said upon that occasion, namely, that it svas a subjed well worth the serious attention of that House. He had reviewed that 'opinion, and the result of his so reviewing it was a confirma tion of that opinion : hut, because he did most heartily wish to see the claims of His Royal High ness effeduallyaisserted, or at least asserted •in a manner more likely to be effectual, than he could hope to accomplish, he had abstained from making any proposition on that subjeet. He hoped, how ever,. the' Hon. and Learned Gentleman would have some proposition to state ; he alledged,.. indeed, it would come with more propriety from any other person than himself; it was that parts:if the Speech of the Learned Gentleman, and the only part of his Speech from which he differed. Since His Royal Highness had considerable claims, he could not help thinking that His Royal Highness could not have that subjdt put in a better train or course, than that of having it considered by the House of Commons. As on former occasions, application had been - made for the payment ofhis.delets, or the increase of his income, it was his opinion there was greet- hard ship in the case of a person of such high xank hay. 4 ing his debts stated in that. Mese; liable, 29 s o r b l i a statement must be, to afl the commen ts 11 "iee were made on such debts, and liable also Waif opinions of. that House, which, although e c ' rre s ile formed, yet, under which, an opinion had prev;he ed with a great part of the Public, Oa, cse House was granting to His Royal flifaneege something to which he was not entitled, vine'off faa, His Royal- Highness was entitled te - T A J than was granted. The Learned Gentleman ."-4. there was no complaint made upon the subiet . His Royal Highness ; should the Prince be di s c uj i to complain, Ms. Fox said. there wa s no inal i ci a o f of whom he had a greater right to complain t e ll sr, himself (iVIr. Fox).. in this, he alluded. to t''' arrangements which were Made for the parn en ma ," the Debts of. the Prince of Wales, when 7,5 0°- bo i; . was deducted out of s zo,oool. per annum, f or rere, liquidation. He had concurred in, that illea s "A g i • although he felt the severity of it, and he m' is say, felt it perhaps more than some indiv'eonle might do, as, besides the esteem and resP e ', ro had for His Royal Highness, as Heir App a l -en ' f e e the Throne, he felt moth regard and affeait g es him, from an early period of his life, from ell 'es stances which procured him the honour of the )4 quaintance of that illustrious Prince. He th°ll ey the zzo,oool. allowed to His Royal Highn e , ss : g o f . no means too great a provision for a P r i nt e• Wales. The Learned Gentleman said, that trei rick Prince_ of Wales, Grandfather to Hie I", ° e t Highness, in the year r 742, had /00, 00° ".,` 0 0. annum, which, considering the 'difference of rl Q a s , and the value of money between the two P er t hie oo . was certainly .a greater allowance' to the foroller to his present Royal Highness; but there 0 0 9:2, 0 1 ther mode of considering the Income of His A4l g lie Highness, and that was, by comparing it tCr oa e increase of the civil List. Now, supposing tan 120,0001. was a liberal allowance —certainly of re ct extravagant allosvance, it should be remeelnedge that 75,0001. of that sum was appropriated fc l i c be, payment of his Debts. .Upon that groan% of thought the provision too small for the "seel/er;bet His Royal Highness, and shOuld like.to hav e : ; e • sum increased •by the liberality of Parliattle,ri, Why then did he concur in the Vote for aPr,„l of ating Thoool. out of tzo,oool. for , the paltr`e - 0 , the Debts ? Not because bethought the hie • sum sufficient to support His Royal HighneSe ,'" ne ss . dignity and state, but because His Royal klirjed had previously declared that he would be sa t i l libe with it. He thought it was not consistent vt . i. if t ' eee' hbnour of that Prince, to take more after t e lt g ee claration ; but if upon the AccoUnts now b,eta r ;of I House, it should be found that every alt s which was then used against paying the Dc:' : l - His Royal Highness otherwise than out of come, such arguments. mustapply as strongly' bD indeed, more strongly, to the Civil le' sr i v ieg" should in that case, feel no difficulty in t'l'l l ' i s abe such arguments to the Civil List, When „ g illa, if,e jea should come forward for discussion.--- 41 e - 4 10" Question itself he should say but a few words , ' to he believed the House was disposed to refer i t t s o Committee of Supply, and indeed he did 119 ,, t ee how the House could well do otherwise; ll' e ti r ' e elef spea to His Majesty, even supposing ala t .,` - A 00! feet of it was unfit to be granted, deman7'' course ; but this matter demanded_ a paiti vestigation, and he was very desirous to be t l e ill stood not to convey even - a momentary idei . i pe should give a vote in favour of the request O P ; 04' in that Message. He. should at present stl t ; c • general principles, which, in his mind, 5f"."..., tremely important for the House to attend I° ,;i was a material circumstance in the Histo l l . Country, that ever since the Revolutiqn ' ls c ' e cel and practice had been, on the accessieen ° '" Th e e Prince to t he Throne, to grant a Civil leiS c '„j Vo l C He knew some persons thought an Anntir,, °' l would be better : doubts 'had been eestert37:6 0, this subject by very respectable Persons not then going to' argue upon that 'su4 jeet, n " e a iff' it neces sar y so to argue. He had Longd er o n iff however, and he had formed an opinion, ° after as much attention as he was eveese abl e oter i '' to any subject whatever. The result of thab sto P tion w a s, that he was of opinion, our. A t eit4 ;idea -wisely in granting a sum tee the I' l Princes for the Civil List for life, aced of Ou r na rse;. was of opinion we ought to follove that'elosil but if circumstances which followoi A the- g r roll of such a provision for life, were m ade ,a l' oo tti l for granting a further provision, it el e li r oit 4P not be said, with propriety, that "i , e was aea, Prf'• .provision : for it could not be a littli'oooo, Vision, if it was liable to alter, in its ?'; by any circumstances whatever. This ,it e ": opinion which he did not believe he sho'lle- :ho s ' notwithstanding the great respealibility T ieat lia i t who entertained a contrary sentiment. .6 4 ment thought itself, at the. time of gr anting - A ft , List, Unable .to judge what the Civil Lks t , t wards ought to be, that was a rea son agalrii-07. . Ang any permanent sum whatevet for elpo ° „1 . List ; and the House should consider o' 9 ll e c' t that if those circumstances, instead of turn' ph unfavourably to the amount of the Civil Liscro 0 5 I f e be on the other side, that is, that t he Ci e „ v might be too ample, there wailed be no' r o le" means of reducing such a Civil List, and ;b e t pr ‘ ir it appeared to him to be of the essence of tif es tli ciple, by which a limited Civil List court t' n J AI ° ed, that the sum should be fixed and eert 3 l - o eeil it should be taken as a general principles al,' el 0 , 1/ „ . Civil List- was voted, that it should be d„e e e - i, 1 ,15 4 held sufficient for all the purposes of a L",,"•ple : me The House should remember that the . Pr'''. l - tr eio limitation goes upon this ground, that ' the, e d oe t o shall.be made to suit theincome, not the In so ns: te • suit the expences ; but by these aePl ic : , t e s augment the Civil List, all the alteraC-vere made on one side, that is, the expeeoe s ' e wr' creased, and therefore the income Was e-raele fo but should circumstances be ever so fri" u ,' o ol 4 the reduction of expenditure, there nev er any reduction of-the Civil List. ea r °Ault' Ifthe Civil List was voted from year ro'r -- I re * er other disadvantages which would acerties.t-iegri tee - be this : suppbse 'that the politics or f in% to take the tut n they did in the Reign ° „ wile; s4' liarri.or of:Queen Anne ;—he. did not Ir"" t he 1 0- :r 0 he might not add, the Reign, or part o ' ,„, 410 ii a GO. the First—but he would no%v b r v!lf T AG tl tie wai h at , tan