The Sun. — London, England, 1802-04-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF PEERS, FRIDAY, ;kPRII. 9. COUNSEL were heard in continuation relative to the Scotch f)peal, Sir Robert Preston, Wirt. v. the Earl of Dundonald and others, namely, Mr. C:iLtiEs, as leading Counsel for the Respond..nts, at considerable length ; after which their Lordships deferred the further hearing of the Case till Mon day. The various Bills before the House were forwarded in their respedive stages. .Lord Viscount CARLETON presented a Petition relative to an Irish Appeal, which, as we understood, cornea forward rather out of the usual course.—The l'etition tvas ordered to be taken into consideration on Monday next, and their Lord ships summoned thereupon. A great deal of private business, such as arrangements fur ihe'bearing.of Appeals, Sec. was transacted. Several Private Bills were brought up from the Commons, by Mr. STANHOPE, Sir C. 13UN5UR.Y, Mr. PANE, and Sir Y, which being read a first tune, their Lordships `adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY, APRIL 9. Mr. BERES FORD moved for leave to bring ti a Bill to amend the Ad relative.to the supplying of Dublin with Wa ter, and for the more elleaual supply of the same.—Lcave given. The Clergy Non-residence Bill was read a second time, and committed tor Monday, Sir W r L r.t 3at ScoTT said, it was his wish that the Blanks should be filled up, anti that the Bill should be printed and stand. over till after the rct:css. Mr. BA KEIL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent Frauds and Abuses In the sale and admQasurement of Ashes, and ether artii2lih of 'N'Eriure.--I.eave given. Mr. At7:XANDER brought up the Report of the Woolwich Larida' Bill, wh;eh was read sod agreed to, and the Bill or dered to be read a third time on Monday. . Mr. FOSTER brought up, a hill for the better regulation of the Linen Manufacture of Ireland, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday. The Loan Bill passed through a Committee, and the Re port was ordered to be received to-morrow. :HOUSE AND WINDOW DUTY. Mr. N. VANSITTART moved the Order of the Day for the House to re3olve itself into a COilltratteC on the House and. Window Duty. On the Question for the SPEAKER's leaving the Chair,• ROBSON made several objedions to the Bill, observing, that the Tax was unequal in its operation; that it was a Commutation for the In come Tax ; but 'that it fell, in a great measure, upon those who did not contribute to the Income Tax. Mr. N. V ANS ITTART said, he wholly dis claimed, as he had done before, the idea of the pre ,sent Tax being a Commutation for - the Income Tax. With respekEt to the burden of the present Tax, and the alledged inequality of its operation, he had taken pains to colle6t an account of those who con tributed to the Income Tax, with relation to what they would now be called upon to contribute to the House and Window Tax. It would be generally allowed that the most opulent part of the community would live in the best houses ; many of them would also have different establishments. This would not, upon the whole, be found an inaccurate crite rion of the proportions of the present Tax, which would be paid by the contrihutors to the Income Tax. By this account it would be found, that those who returned an Income of focal. and upwards, lived in houses of from 191. to 1601. per annum, having about 150 windows ; they would now be called upon to pay, as their proportion to the pre sent duty, from 251. 95. to 471. 2s. instead of an Income Tax of fool. a year, and upwards. Ac cording to the same mode of calculation, those who returned an Income of from 20001. to goool. would now be called upon to pay from 151. ss. to 211. 9s. and so on in proportion, those who had returned from 5001. to I 0001. to pay from 51. ss. to 91. 9s. ; from 2001. to gaol. from 21. I2S. 6d. to 51. ss. ; from 1501. to 2001. from 21. • IS. to 21. r 2s. 6d. ; from tool. to 1501. from r zs. to 15s. This state ment would be found to be in general correct as to the proportion each person would be called upon to pay, compared with what he did pay as his contribution to the Income Tax. Mr. JONES was of opinion the Tax would fall too heavily upon the poorer class of the People, and that it required some modification. If the CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would So modify it, +hat it should fall upon those who were relieved fro a the Income Tax, he pledged himself to sup_ port it. He added a compliment to the City, for their successful exertions in procuring a repeal of thP. Income Tax. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Hon.' Gentleman had given a whimsical proof of his desire to have the Income Tax repeal ed, by declaring, in effect, that he would not vote for any Tax that did not bear hard upon that class who were to be relieved from the effect: of that Tax. 1 - le called for the sypport of the Hon. Gentleman on the ground of consistency. The fact was, that the present Tax did not attach on those who did not pay to the Income Tax. _ _ . Mr. SHERIDAN said, he did not clearly corn. prebend the Right Hon. Gentleman. The CHANCELLOR; of the EXCHEQUER .aid, that the present Tax did not attach on those having incomes under 601. a year, according to, the account of the proportions between the two taxes mentioned by his Hon. Friend, by which it also appeared, that those who had returned incomes from 601. to tool. would pay nothing to the House Tax, and only is. 6.1. to the Window Tax, instead of from los. to zl. i os. Mr. SHERIDAN said, the Hon. Gentleman jor:Es) had expressed his wish that the pre sent Tax should l)e imposed upon those who did pay the Income Tax. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. N. Vit.NSlTT.mur) had detailed to the House the great saying which would accrue to these perms in paying the present Tax, but he (Mr. SH ER TDAN) wanted to know what was the criterion by which that was to be discovered It might be fair to take the 'rent of the house. as the criterion, but was it mean! to be asserted, that a person might not live ip a house with a great number of win _ dows and let the greater part out in lodgings, whose actual income was not more than from 601. to tool. whilst he,paid,as much to. this Tax as persons pos tbcssed of much larger incomes. He thought it un just that the number of windows should be taken as the criterion of the ability of the individual to p - ily this Tax, The OIANCELLOR of tise EXCHEQUER said, he could only say that the statement which he 114 d made upon the subjdi, was founded upon the best and most accurate information that could be pro-. cured relative to the description of hol.nes inhabited by the different classes paying the Income Tax. He had never said that the number of windows should he taken as the criterion of the ability of the individual to pay,but that the number of windows, together with the amount of the house rent, formed a just criterion according to the fair principles of taxation. Mr. HILEY A DDINGTON said, that he could nor avoid making one observation on what had fallen from an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. JoNE3), who had entirely attributed the Repeal of the Income Tax to the meritorious exertions of the City, which he seemed at present to have some very special . reasons for wishing to conciliate. He did not think it necessary to state to the House what, in com mon' with several others, he had long known of his Right Hon. Relation's determination on this subjed, in case of the restoration of Peace ; but would only observe, that the first possible oppor tunity had been taken of announcing that intention, namely, the very day of the arrival of the Definitive Treaty. M. JONES explained. After a short further conversation between Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON, Mr. WIGLEY, and Mr. N. VANSITTART, . _ The Mahe resolved itself into a Committee, through which the Bill passed ; after some conver sation between Mr. RossoN, Mr. VANSITTART, and Mr. WJGLEY, the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. RESTRICTION ON THE BANK. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he rose in pursuance of a notice which he gave on a former day, to more for leave to bring in a Bill to continue, for a time to be-limited, the restric tion of payment in Specie upon the Bank. It was impossible for him to submit to the House such a proposition without some regret, because it was an interference with the legitimate fun Lions and opera tions of the establishment of the Bank ; but he had the satisfaction of being fully convinced the mea sure he had to submit to the consideration of the House, could not furnish any charge against any one, or lead the most timid man to suppose that the Bank dues not possess the most ample means within itself to discharge all its engagements in any manner whatever, which they Might be called upon, or allowed to do. He was asked can a former day, Whether it was his intention to move for 'a Pre liminary Inquiry into this matter ? He said then, he had no such intention, and he had no such intention now, because it did not appear to him to be neces. sary. In the year 1797, when the House was called upon to confirm the Order in Council restrict ing the payments in specie of the. Bank, a Commit tee was instituted for purposes different from those which bore upon the question now. A Committee was then appointed, and their Report proved that which could not now be contested, the solvency of the Bank, and its ample sufficiency to discharge all demands that could be made upon It. This was one of the purposes for which the Committee was appointed, and for which there was now no neces sity whatever. The Committee was appointed also for another purpose, and was instrualled upon another point : " "J ;o inquire into the necessity which produced the Order in Council, upon which the restriction took place ;" the grounds of which were so notorious to all mankind that he need not enlarge upon them, and it was now for the deli berate consideration and dispassionate refleCtion of the House, to decide whether it was now proper to continue that measure for a limited period.— Upon these topics an inquiry' took Riace at the time the measure was adopted, but an inquiry was not necessary under the present circumstances.. The reasons for the continuance of the restriction he should shortly state to the House. The course of Ex change between this and Foreign Countries, was dis advantageous to us; the export trade was now, and had been for some months, considerably at a stand ; and a considerable time must elapse before we had our returns from the Export ; after it shall have been returned to its channel, the course, he trusted, would be rapid. There was no inquiry necessary however for this purpose, because the thing was periettly clear. Nor would it be necessary to in quire, while the course of Exchange was disad vantageous to us, whether to diminish the amount of our circulating cash, would or would not increase that disadvantage ? for that was also maniCest ; and that the opening of payment in gold at the Bank would have this (flea, was clear from this circum stance, that for several months past, there had been carried on a trade in the purchase of Guineas, in this Country, with a view to their exportation. It was therefore upon the grounds of the state of ex change between this and Foreign Countries, and part of our Export trade being considerably at a stand, and our not having, nor being likely to have, for some months, returns for Export trade, and the praaice of exporting Coin likely to take place, that he thought it his duty to recommend to the House to continue the restrktion on the Bank. — There was another consideration which operated very strongly on his mind, that the entire com mand we had possessed over the markets of the Continent fbr so long a time could not be ex peeted to continue in the same degree : com petition must be expeCled—we must meet with rivals, and on this account every facility should be given to our merchants, and this could be done in no way so effeCtually, as by continuing to them the advantages, anti indeed affirding an augmentation of discount, that was likely to be one of the ef feas of the continuance of the restriction. 'There were therefore, as appeared to hint, strong reasons for the adoption of this measure, arising out of the circumstances of this country at the present time. It promised to be produCtive of essential benefit to the country at large, by the assistance which it IyQUid give to merchants, and it would be the means of avoiding a probable evil, and of altering the Course of Exchange : and he was not aware of any inconvenience that was likely to result from at least none to any co.n , ilerable amount. We had had the experience cF fines or five years of 11,1- , usual difficulty, by which the nicasui.e of rest.6,l;.tion badeproduced beneficial effects. The credit of the Batiksi9 the mean time, had undergone no diminu tion whatever, bist on the contrary Bank Notes had maintained their reputation, and had been received readily in payment on all occasions. There were, however, some circumstances which he could not help observing, and laying some stress upon. When it was thought expedient to increase the circulating cash of the Country; an applicatiOn - Wlrtnaleato the Bank, and 'they called in their One and Two Pound Notes, and said they would pay them in cash, and out of the Coo,oool. thus paid to individuals who held these Notes, and who were entitled to have cash for them, 400,0001. were,, by the choice of these indi viduals, received in paper. After this proof of confidence, and manifestation of reliance on the Bank Paper, and establishment of the full Credit of the Bank, there was no just cause to apprehend that the Bank Paper would not continue to. maintain its Credit. He knew there was in this Country a great diversity of opinion with resped to the mode in which the Bank ought to be. permitted to re new their money payments Some Gentlemen, he believed, were of opinion they should pay cash for Notes of a small denomination; but here he Wished it to be be remembered, that until there was an. abundant supply of cash, an evil might result from this—for if the 11. and 21. Notes were paid in cash, and afterwards a general anxiety were to be en tertained on the sudden, for cash, Bank Bills of tool. or toool. would be brought in for these and 21. Notes, and this would introduce the very inconvenience intended to be avoided. By this sort of restraint of the measure, the circulation would be interrupted materially, and then the Country Bank Paper, for small sums, would he the Only currency. Not that he meant to throw any discredit on the Country Banks, but he was stating this as the pro bable effed of opening the money payment at the Bank for small Notes, in the mere possible event of any sudden anxiety for cash. He did not know whether he had made himself clear to the House; but what he meant to impress upon the House was this, that by direding the Bank to pay in cash small Notes, the probable, or rather possible died would be, that of creating an unlimited demand for such small Notes in exchange for large ones, and thus a risk would be run of their being taken out of circulation, which would be a considerable incon venience. He did not think it was necessary for him to go more minutely into the subject. He had assign ed the reasons why it appeared to him this measure way necessary. Those were, the Course of Ex change being at present against us , part of our Trade at a stand, in a great measure, and, from another. no Returns could be expeded soon : all which inconveniences might be increased, but could not be diminished by opening payments in specie at the Bank. On the other hand, he knew of no material inconvenience that would arise from the continuance of the Restridion. - - Under all these circumstances, which were indeed unavoida ble, he thought it would be prudent for us to wait a while, to see the consequence and effeds of Peace, to give time to our Merchants to form their connections on the Continent ; to take time to see the commercial relations in which different Countries will stand towards each other ;- to ob serve all these things, and to reflect On them, before we opened payments in Cash at the Bank. - there were such advantages likely to result on the one hand, and without any material inconvenience, an d while, on the other,- it was possible that some evil might result, he was apprehensive the House would agree with him in opinion, that this restric tion ought to be continued. He should therefore now move, " That the different Ads of Parliament by which that Restridion had been enforced from time to time, for the last four years, be read"— which being done pro firma, he moved, 46 That leave be given to bring in a Bill to continue, for a time to be limited, the restrictions in the said At on the Bank of England," &c. Mr. 70NES said, he had listened to the Right Hon. Gentleman with considerable attention, but he had heard nothing relative to the commercial re lations of this country, nor was there one word either in tire Preliminary or Definitive Treaty re lative to the commercial relations between this coun try and France. He thought some reason ought to have been shewn why the Bank should not pay in cash. Several persons had suffered the punishment of the Law for forging bank-notes, and it was not proper the forging trade should be suffered to pro ceed. If the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER WOU'd state that commercial relations were depend ing between this country and France, he would not object to the Motion. Sir ROBERT' PEEL said, that when this mea sure was first brought forward, it excited a very great and serious alarm. He was happy, however, to observe, that many of those Gentlemen who op posed it then, had withdrawn on the present occa sion. The Right Hon. Gentleman had assigned very weighty reasons for the present mearAire. The Exchange, as the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated, was against us in Foreign Countries ; this might fre quently be the case in the course of trade, but'even if it was in our favour, it would be no reason why the Retridion should cease. Our trade, had increased threefold, and property to the amount of not less than 3000,000,0001. now circulated from hand to hand in this Country, in the course of a year. Not one thirtieth part of this sum was in specie : it would therefore be productive of the greatest incon venience, and most injurious consequences, to oblige the Bank to pay in specie, and to suffer this specie to go out of the Country. No injury had been stated to have arisen from the Restridion ; no Peti tions had been laid upon the Table against it ; if the trading interest had been affected by it, they would have petitioned against it. Had the,Bank been injured by it ? On the contrary, its credit had risen. Upon all these grounds, therefore, he was decidedly in favour of the continuance of the Re stridion. General G ASCOYNE observed, that the issue of 11. and 21. Notes from the Bank of England, was of peculiar benefit to Liverpool, where they could not do without some such circulating medium. ,Pre vious to the issue of these, notes for similar sums t vrre sent into circulation by Country Banks, in and near Liverpool,- some of which failed for near 2,000,0001. and paid 35. 6d. in the pound. Similar notes, 116weve,r, of other country Banks were, not. withstanding, taken, until notes Of a like amount were issued by the Bank en tirely superseded the others, and were ' .i ' ri :li t c h h e state of credit at Liverpool. of England, Dr." LAWRENCE said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Jowl's) had brought it forward :13 an argue ment against this measure, that several persons had forfeited . their lives for forging. Bank Notes : had - ire - FileVerheard of persons being hanged for coun terfeiting the Coin of the Kingdom ? The argu. , ' I h ia ig d ment was the same in one, case as in the other.-- lie confessed he could not agree altogeth the argument used by the Hon. Baronet, (Sir R °- BER'r PEaLE) as he thought it went bey ond the intention of the present measure. Th e restriction did not afied the credit of the Bank, but was it'll.' er With posed to prevent the injurious consequences of 3 general alarm, and to provide against the possib i , lity any failure in the immediate resources of the - Bank, 'to answer the extraordinary demands made in consequence of that alarm. The restrietion arose froth Parliament, and not from the proposition of the Bauk. The question was, Whether this re striction ought now to be continued ? argu ment of.the Hon. BaiOnet, that the tra ding•inte re of flit Country required an extensive paper tion, would go to an unlimited continuance of ib is Restriftion. To this he could never agree, but when it was considered that our export trade, during interval between the Preliminary and the Defo ttiv. Treaty had been unfavourable, and that Foreigners possessed large sums of money in this 'Cou'' trY l P , together with other circumstances, it would be r' s- • to rake off the Restridion at the pre,ent momen t ''' . He wished, however, that they should r eserve t° themselves the power - Of - rakingeoff -The -Resfri eti°n from time to time, as• circumstances might atie justify such a measure. Sir ROBERT PEEL and Dr. LAWRENCE se Ve : ° rally explained. Mr. TIERNEY said, he did not intend at r re b . ; sent to enter into the subject at large. H e , thoL'o i _ . c the original restriaions pregnant with d a nger ; 3 0 now that it Wad been imposed, he had no obk :ci : ° „,l to continue the restridion for a moderate time, as a lesser evil than what might be suPP ° u s ia ' to arise from immediately taking it ow. He r °t . not however but objed to the present mode 0 1 rn ing this restridion. It had formerly been A,:a in continuation, that it was danf, to remove it during such a War as we w ere e r l , gaged in., But now that Peace was come, ", ei a stridion continued still to be moved, anti move(' matter of course. it was no argument that. the change was against this Country. If the restrl-ci tion was to be made a matter of accommodation!.s culators would always find reason to petition 11 '; continuance. The Hon. Gentleman thought the , should have at least the discretionary power CO ted to them of paying when they saw profc r ' Ile When they found themselves enabled to do so. wished it to be understood, that with regard t° • w a s original question of the restriction, his or' nl , ° , a t continued the same as ever. No evil had 3 % 1 14 Id v vi i c n e ce i d nlt t he in w t h h ( e )le ev m e o n clie o d f ,s a - st n e e rn w , resulted from the measure ; but it had introO ce on . art have cause to regret it. He thought that su ch wo important step as the present should not be t a co , without . previously • and \‘ra r he lve was c .appointing a Comtnittee to quire into its necessity. . TIEg The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEC-firsr, said, that at the passing of the restridion at t i,c a Committee had been appointed to inquire int°.tree Solvency. of . the Bank.. To appoint a Con'al,„l - this purpose at present, would only lea d t ,.,•a' ea inquiry into a subject, on which no one tert-lo be any doubts. The present Bill was intendea too an ex-ad Copy of the former, and if the 11 0 "' tro ala tleman would look into the former Bill , he 1 The find the very Provision he contended for' t h e re Governor and Diredors of the Bank, wer e they authorised to pay such Stuns in specie , 3 : t hetn judged expedient. Tlie Bill only prevei lto. from being compelled to do so. t th e Mr. JUL EY ADDINGTON stated, t-13 ,, good effeds of the restridion had very s°caur- Feared ; and if other circumstances had no° red, its operation would very soon have enabled Os the Bank to resteme its payments in spe cie ". o the Hon. Relation had not moved the restridion tern' time of Peace as a matter of course, but a s 3 4 04 1 porary Provision, till the effects of the Peace have begun to operate. wish Mr. TIERNEY explained. He aid no' f t he the Committee to inquire into the solvencY Bank, but into the necessity of •contiouing t striaion. fa stric" Sir W. MILNER thought, that if the ld be. don were removed, the certainty that cash c of the had for them, would still keep the not es Zaions' Bank in circulation. He adverted to the relh e n l oge that had been thrown out by some Members, 7400ses. sums of money being voted away in thi n c e a ted , He thought such insinuations going forth "nr rill" d ' tended to produce had effeds on the rubliCwijied and sentiments injurious to the House. He ha the Public to know, that whenev er wurie) o r Wi lls been voted away in thin Houses, it was not vi ttiorl, to the inattention of Members, but their COn oity of the notorious and incontrovertible neceo„ 1 t a voting the money, made them think the vo . tl ,r b ca ne matter of course, and therefore not requi . ", °o stint attendance in all the stages of the st ilt Mr. MANNING thought that as we are in t tiis a War Establishment, the restrictive, evenwbether view, ought to be continued. He said, thigioej to the number of Forgeries were to be atr i , ia a been I the great issue of Bank Notes or not, ' r eaC very much exaggerated. number i . O 7 f O f N o forgeries, for a list l a be condemned for that crime. woo. -- prove,st.bnef g o l Oso Mr. MANNING thought the subjeet , use al ri s e r s ii , d, by h t e no c v o in u a ld a the b, freed from all doubt by laying 1 oe for , f re the it of the Debts of the Bank, u e onlY for the result - lion should.be pass ed. w ° 5 c oal l a entitled by the Aa of Restridioo, to• shay payments partially. He wished tha n er 2 at'Y Mr. TIERNEY affirmed , t hat the 13.10 k i have a discretionary power to do so ge to br t° and Mr. RoDsork, leave w as g iven After a few words from Lord DE 131 0,- 111° a