The Sun. — London, England, 1807-03-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P.4RLIEIMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS, WEDNESDAY, .MARCH 4. Lord Vis. GRimstoNE took the Oaths and his sept. In the Appeal " Thackwelt and othittsE4f:'jeftetiys and others," the Attorney General and—Mr. Fon blanque were heard on the part of the Crown. On the Motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR, after a few observation's frOM Lords R EDESDALE and ELDON, the Decree, of the Court cf Chancery was. ordered to be affirmed. The Earl 'of AYLESFORD stated, that His - Majesty had. been waited upon with" the Address of that House, to which he had been pleased to return a most gracious answer. •, The Earl of Motax - presented a Petition from the Debtors confined in Lancaster Gaol, prayinvelief; which was ordere.Pto lie on the table; • • The LORD CHANCELLOR read aletter which he had received from Major-General Sir John - Stuart, K. B. expressive of his high sense of the honour conferred upon biro by the Vote of Thanks of. that Eouse. • - The. House resolved itself into a Committee on the Thames Police Bill. L6rclELno& objected to a clause in the Bill. which , declares it to be a misdemeanour for,Seamen to quit the Vesseis in which they have engaged 'to perform a•voyage, previous to the Vessels' sailing, and ren ders then liable, for such misdemeanour, to One month's imprisonment. - His Lerdship observed, that this had hitherto been merely a breach of a cMI con tract, and he entertained considerable doubt hoW far they ought to legislate in the way propoSed,. parti cularly as in this clause the Seaman was to be liable . to punishment whether he was engaged under writ ten articles or not ; and thus he might be liable to punishment for quitting his Ship on account of the Captain refusing to sign articles, although it was onlyby means of those articles that he could recover his wages. He wished, therefore, the- Bill to be' postponed, in order to give time for its due consi thiation. OU the MotiOn of Lord aporry the Chairman left the Chair, and the House having resumed, the Committee on the Bill was postponed till this day • se'nnight. . . The South Sea Bill and the Sugar Draivback Bill passed through ComMittees; ' atud reported. Moutgile, from the Office of the Chamber lain of the City of London, presented certain Ac counts dire led to he laid before Parliament; which were ordered to lie on the table. Adjourned. HOUSE" OF COMMONS. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4. Mr. Johnson, from the Office of Chief Secretary for lieland, prosented the Accounts 'from the Corn mis3ioners fur the Redu6tion of the Public Funded Debt in Ireland.—Ordered to lie on the Table. The • Right Hon. Henry Grattan, ColOnel Barry, and Mr. Dawson, were added, on the Moiion of Lord H. PETTY, to the Committee of Finance. MUTINY BILL AND ROMAN CATHOLICS. Lord HO WICK, "adverting to • the notice' which he had given fur thiS day relative to the introduc, tion of aaditional Clauses into the Mutiny Bill, tor allowing Roman- Catholics to bold certain Commis sions in the Army, and for granting Soldiers of• that perstiaion the free exercise of their Religion—in formed the House, that on. more mature..considera tion of the-subje6t, it had been deemed more'proper to bring in a separate Bill for that purpose ; which 13311 he proposed to move for leave to bring in to morrow : at the same time he thought .it right to state, 'that it was intended to extend the same pri vi!ge to Roman Catholics in. the' naval seririce—L- Hear ! Hear !---As to the Mutiny, Bill, there were many Amendments to 1:,,t moved in it, to .which be did not undervand there'would be much objeaion it was proposed, therefore, that it should go through , the Conimittee this day, pro forma, for • the purpose of having the additionat Clauses introduced into it— after which the Bill would be re-committed on Monday next ; and from the advanced period of 'the season, Gentlemen would be aware of the necessity of passing the Bill with all convenient dispatch. `ll,-. YORKE was .glad that the. Noble Lord had r- - dipted the plan .of bringing forward his Regula tioas respei:fin ) g the Roman 'Catholics as a separate measure. As to the-course proposed reSpetting' the Bill, .he had no particular objection to it, unle.,S any motel ial Amendments were to be made, in winch case he was of opinion that the Bill ought to be printed. The SECRETARY at WAR assured the Right II m. Gentleman, that none of the Amendments pro , posed were of any material importance. He then tooved the Order of the Day for going into a Com mitt:es on the Mutiny Bill. - The House consequently .resolved itself into a. Ci4nrnirtee, 'in Which the several Amendments ere adopted : and on the House being resumed, the flepor( was brought up, and the Bill was ordered to be recommitted on Monday twit • R. 1 - v I NDHANI. Sir JOHN ,HIPPISLEY,Tursuant to his notice, rose to' Move, that the Order tor taking Mr. Secretary vVindham into the custody of the Serjeant at Arms be. discharged., But before he should submit his Notion to the -House, he thought it proper first to . mate, that in addition to what he alledged on the preceding day, namely, that Mr, Windham had left town to exercise an. important franchise, he hal also very urgent private. business to attend , to. • The Right Hon. Gentleman too, in leaving - town ; dad.. mentioned these circumstances to a ,Noble I.,Ord,•one et his Colleagues, who had forgotten them when that Gentleman was ordered into the custody of the Ser jl int. If he bad stated so much yesterday, when . the name of his Right Hon. Friend was called, he w is confident be would ,bave been excused on these grounds. He then move_ d that the Order be cischarged. Mr. CANNING would readily consent to the discharge of the Order on good cause assigned, but thought it impossible, for the House to agree to the' Motion on the Hon. Gentlematis own shewing , ,flt a time when every Gentleman was peremptorily : called upon to attend in his place. If be understood the Hon. Gentleman's statement, the' Right Hoim. Gentleman had no urgent private business-when'he'; left town, but had foUnd it by 'the way, in going to exercise ell important constitutional franchise. That- Right Hon. Gentleman had gone to eleft one Mem ber, who might go to ele& another, and he another, and-so . on; 11 such 'an excuse a that then offered were to be adfiitted. But a supplementary excuse had been.adcled, namely, that the Right Hon.; Gen tleman had informed a Noble Lord, one of his Col leagues, of his leaving town. If that Noble Lord was a Member of the other House of Parliaintn,t, what had they to do with it..;..and if hel.ves....a.Metn-, ber of that House, the Noble Lord had shewn hoW little he thought of the validity of the encase, - by his having, omitted to urge it when the name bf his Right Honourable Friend had been called. On Oleic grounds he thought the . Motion ought not toibe ae lcea6d to. • 1 Mr. WHITBREAD left it to the House to deter-, mine the value of the excuse that had•been offered for his Right'Hopouroble Friend -bet agreed with the Right Honourable Gentleman who had just sat dciWn, that it: was not sUfficient, and that' the -House could not well order any Gentleman here after into: custody, if this excuse were to be admitted. 'Lord H. Pe'rTy . agreed with his Hon Friend, that the reasons suggested . were not sufficient to - justify the.: . House in discharging the Order; and Observed,' that the course that should have been pursued by his Right Hon. Friend was, to authorise some person • to snake application to the. House for leave of ab- sence. FELLOWES follOwd On the same side, when the Motion wasnegatived without a division. Sir J. NEWPORT_ obtained. leave: to bring in a Bill for the better Regulation of the Collection of - Duties on House's &c. in Ireland. Ordered, on the Motion of Sir JOHN NEWFORT, that there be laid before the .Hou , ie.ati Account of the .value of all Imports into, and Exports from, Ireland, in the year ending sth January,lBo7, dis tinguishing the value - of Irish Manufactures export ed, and the official and real valtie of the Imports and EXports. The Accounts were then presented by the Hen. 'Baronet, and ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. LOAN. On the Motion of Lord HENRY PETTY , the. House went into a Committee of Ways and Means. In the Committee, LOl'd HENRY PETTY observed; that as an opportunity had been formerly afibrded him of stating the amount of Supplies, and of the Ways and Means, there was ow uo necessity for his trespassing upon the time of the House,. by en= tering particularly up on th e same subjeel. At' tini same time he thought it proper shortly to i recapitu-: late what he had before said, as the present occa sion furnished him with an opportunity orpresetitH _ing a more accurate. view than. his means of in formation before enabled him to do. The Noble Lord stated, that there was some variation of his loriner statement, owing to the excess olextraordi-1 naries for 1806, which, as the accounts had not .been. made up at the time, he had not then the means of calcUlating.., upon. 'As there were no 'reasonable hopes of a - reduaion, this .excess, amountiog to 7g3jlol.'he would add to the extrain - ditiaries of was present year. Though this charge, hoWever,. was so much greater than - he had calcalated, still' the Ways and Means were Competent to meet it. His Lordship then' stated the Supplies and the Ways and Means, as follows :- sUPPLI ES, 1807. • • • • Navy .army - • Ordinance isqc I 13neor. s Vote of Credit £. 09'7 ,8 •37 3,743.716 1,560,c00 3,000,c00 Total joint Charge .. 45,396,575 . " SEPARATE CHARGES, GREAT BRITAIN. Deficiency of Malt 1805 - 200,cc0 Interest Qii Exchequer Bills, 1807 1,2 , 0,0r0 Five per Cents. 1707 to be paid vIT 350,0 t. , '175 0 ,000 Total Supplies 4700,075 Declud Irish Proportion of joint Charge and Civil List • - • - 5 , 545 1.,77 On account of Great Britain ,~ ~ ,fro, ,~'9y WAYS' AND MEANS, 1807. Malt Duty, Persions, etc. - - 2,77,... - ,-00 Surplus Consolidated kuud - - 3,5:.7,0 .c, War Taxes - - 19,8ac,0c0 Lottery - - - - 33?,000 Exchequer Bills on Vote of Credit Loan - Surplus Ways and Means 1806 12,2 o,oao 4.t,155 0 , 77 , 0 8 '5 Amount of Supplies as above 41,600.89 Surplus Ways and Means. 173.287 In adverting to the Loan, he observed, that the Contra6ors for every 1661', advanced were to have 701. three per cent. consols, 701:three per cent. 're duced', and 101.. 12s; navy five per cents.. The in terest on every tool. was 41. 14s. 7d. , The terms, therefore, werenincommonlV advantageous for the Country. The interest of the Loan for the last year, which . had been. reckoned , highly advanta •geous, was, as the House would recoliea, 41. I 9 7d: on the 1001.; there was, therefore, on the Loan of the present year, a difierenee in favourof the, public. of 58. per cent. His. Lordship expressed, :his high satiSfaelion that notwithstanding the Excess ,of Extrawdinaries; the Ways and Means were fully_ i sufficitnt to answer this Excess, and therefore lie was inure confident than ever that liN.estimate of. '32 millions as the.perthanent war expenditure was well founded, :Excluding extraordinaries, subsidies, and the increase of prices on the different articles to be supplied, upon which no certain data could be had, he thought the sum of 32 millionS the fairest criterion of expenditure that could be formed. I n order to place this in the .clearest light, his Lordship briefly compared thoamount of the Supplies, exclu= sive of Extraordinaries, Subsidies, &c. &c. and of Ways and Means, exclusive of the annual taxes, the result of which comparison was, that there remain ed'a considerable surplus of Ways and Means. Froth the whole, he concluded that he was fully warranted in the criterion of 32 millions as the per manent Nvar expenditure, which he had taken as the foundation' of the Plan which be had. on a rortner occasion detailed •to the • FToitse. He th;li niched that the sum of 14,200,9001.. be raised by annuities for the service of England and Ireland for the year 1807. . , Mr. contended that there eras a Eillacv in !Abe Noble Lord'ti criterion of expenditure, as taking the Loan and Vote of Credit tocrether, there would be borrowed 15 millions'instead of t 2 million, odd, -- which latter sum was that which the Noble -Lord had calculated upon. " Lord. H. P appealed to the recollthion at the House whether, in his first statement, .be, had at distinaly said.; that extraordinary charges, sqb.- sidles, &c: &c. were to he provided for separately. He had taken the criterion of 32 millions exclusive of these. How then could it be said that this wasa fallacy? What he had stated was, that if Saiidies should be necessary, these and other extraordinary charges must be provided for separately—by Loan, or otherwise. He had then also stated, t frat-he had not taken Subsidies and other extraordinaries'into ac count, because, with respect 'to these, no certain' diaa!`,ntiltibe fixed- -.44e-1-he-was-now-told that this 'was a fallacy, because he had not taken extra ordinary charges into account. He desired to, he understood. distinelly, and reFieated, once for 'all, that the criterion which he had taken, Foreign Subsidies, &c. were excluded. He had assumed 32 millions as - the . expendituref because for this he had comparatively certain data,. The Plan, therefore, he again stated, would be good, thus far, and no far ther. Mr . . ROSE admitted that the'Noble Lord had ex eluded Subsidies. But:his - Subsidies- and Extraordi naries, -taken together, would only amount to about one million,,andyet the Noble Lord wanted no less than three millions on Exchequer Bills ; the remain, Jug two millions 'being, on 'his' plan,"unaccounted for. This, therefore, he considered asasonfession that the criterion was wrong. But at- the same time he made no-objeaion to this Vote of Credit.— He knew that 32 rn . iiii9ns were - not s'nfficient for: the war expenditure, and of course there must be fur ther provision made. Lord HENRY PETTY observed; that the Dian for this country was 12,Q00,0001. as he• bad origi nally stated it he had never said that a Vote of Credit Would not be necessary. He excluded all Subsidies.and increased prices-; and, instead Of a Sub sidy of 80,0001.• he had come do%;ii• for' three Mil lions—the whole must exclusively be, Rrovided - fot. He had, aged strictly on the principle on which he had set out :.yet; even 'including a late excess of ENtraordinaries, he had brought-the pernianent-tk 7 pendituren within thirty-one, roitliaps arid.-.a being half a million short of the Expenditure stated. He considered himself, therefore, as more • thati ever, justified in taking Ahe criterion of thirty-two Mr. ROSE lAr ished to fix the Noble Lord to a L point :• he Atiniitted the Nbble tOrd's statement with ,resped to the Loan of 12,200,0001: But in addition to that •there ,were three millions of Ex- . chequer Bills unaccounted for, except by the Prussian subsidy,and the excess of EXttaordinaries,which hard 4 arnonnted to one million. He admitted also the Noble Lord's statement with resped to inc:b.jasecl prices; . but still that did not account for the three millions. - The fad was, that instead of twelve Mil lions two hundred thousand pounds, the Loan waS . 15 millions. There was not 'the smallest probabi lity that the Expenditure' could be kept within 32 Lord HENRY PETTY observed, that when he had detailed his Plan, he certainly intended that: there should be a Vote of Credit ; and had stated, that all unexpeCted excesses were to be separately provided. tor. Mr. FELLOWES said, that he had . understood the Cliane . elior of the Exchequer exactly as he had now stated the matter. He had .understood that. all unexpetted Excesses, Subsidies, &c. Bcc. were. to be separately provided for, and that' a Vote of Credit to the amount specificd.wouldpe necessary-. Sir ,THOMAS TURTON observed, that the Noble Lord had kinillecl with the warmth of a ge nerous mind at the ch-arge of fallacy- . ---but this was not meant in any invidious, sense. The event had proved, that from some cause or other tLe.e:wentli ture could riot be confined to thirty-two Millions. If the, idea therefore liadthrie out among the Pub lic that this criterion was correct, there was no doubt , a fallacy with resped to the Public. He asked, 'whether . the 500,0001. subsidy to Russia was. in • consequence of the treaty of 1805, or any new treaty ?—[Mr. Vansittart-intimated that it Wa s i n consequence of the old treaty,] Then he would wish to know whether the . 80,0001. to Prussia was the whole that was intended to be given, or whether it was the. commencement of something further 1— If it was only a previous step to something further, he meant to propose a motion on that subjeCt. He thought that subsidies to Prussia in the present state of that country would be ,wasting money.: It would produce no good whatever—the fortresses, for the preservation of which this so,ooo. had been given, had been captured, and there wer e little h o p es t ha t any assistance of this sort would be of service. • After a few words from:Mr. VANSITTART, the Resolution re.zpeCting the' Loan, and the Resolution respetling the terms on which it was procured, and the defraying of the interest, Were put, and carried without a division. • The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow, . . The Sugar Drawback Bill, the Brandy Duty Bill, and the Irish - Excise Ta-xes: Bill, were read - a third time and passed. • , The Bill for Regulating the Importation .of-To hacco into Ireland waspaoed through a Commit tee; and the Report was ordered to be received morrow. On the Motion of Lord Howicx, the ,House went into a Committee tbr the purpose of consider ing of the propriety of granting BoUnties f9r the Prevention, of an illicit Traffic in - Slave.e; atter the commencement df the opration of the Bill for the Abolition of the .Slave Trade. The Committee resolved, that it was expedkint that the sum of. 401: per head for every male Slave taken on board a Ship illegally trading 'to the British Colonies; 301. for every female, and 201. for every child. under - 14 years of age, so taken, shOold, be grante - d. to the' captors.—Proportionate sums'were voted for those to belbund illegally offered to sale ; and rewards were voted to those who tnay otherwise prevent the. continuance:of the traffic. The House lesnined, and ordered the Report to, be received to-morrow. The. Report of the Committee of SupplY• of, Monday was then brought up. The different Grants to Institutions in Ireland were untt nimon.ily agreed to, until the, Resolution which grants the sum of 13,0001. towards the . support. of a S,-.-minary for the Education of Roman Ca ,tholie:Clerkytnen, at Maynooth, was read. This 'c,114 q 1 up Mr. PERCIVAL, who spoke at some. considerable length against the further encouragement of the E,tablishipent, which, in his opinion, had 4 ten= clencj to increase the 4issentions which unhappily ; existed amongst his Majesty's subteas is that part of the British Rthpire. Sir JOHN NEIPPORD—i" Mr. Speaker, I feel MySaf able to convince the House, and I hope the Honor cable and Learned Gentleman, on the points of ilitierence between us, by adverting to the Afts oldie Irish Parliament, which .pi'rticulatly referred to the 'Catholic Seminary et Maynooth. If,, indeed, • the 'Leaened Gentlemen had edverted to them,..his surprise that the demand for that institution had increased from ehe average grant • of 80001. . would have ..been emelderably lessened.; for he would have found,. that the sums voted by th e I r i s h Pe re liametit varied almost every year from 8 to g and 10,6061. .In fad it would have been found, that, hough the sum.of 80001. was the averaged annual grant, yetehe'lrisli Parliament expressly reeeignized the principle of varying the amount of the .grant ac- cording to times and circumstances.' With respeet `to the object oft of the Hon. and Learned Gentle man, that the existence, much more`the enlarge --Ment of tiecleraytiooth .Seminni-Y, was prejudicial to the interests of the University of Dublin—this is alt objection which I by no means admit ; bet before I enter on an investigation of that objedien, I beg leave to appeal to that liberal and manly spirit which marked the cotiduet of the Catholics, When, in' the Petition' alluded to by the 'Hon. and Learned. Gen tlernan, they stfongly deprecated the intention of excluding their Protestant country men from the right cf beineeedutated at th e c o ll e g e of May e booth. But what was the true state of the. ques tion, and . how did the fit6ts fudly , exemplify. that it operated it: no s uch wa y ? That th:.• of Collides at the 'University of DubEti had oven progressive, and 4 at momentthi there was double the pain( er than et any former periosl. But it was notonly in the Universi tv Of Dalinthat the number'-of Catholic students- had increased ; many of the higher orders of that - body are to be found at the Universities in Eugland—at Edioburgh and Glas gow. But the Hon . . and Learned Gentleman has saide it woult heee been a Wiser poliCY tohave en :larged the University of Dublin, and direded the a c y a t n i o o o n t I ( l )f S a n it i l t i m s , public money expende i d o ( rh m te he ed M u to ;meet flie 'provision there. Enlarge that University, I answer, as you please, and you advance not one step to the objet ,of your wishes.--And the reason is obvious, because persons who are to be instructed in the doCtrine and discipline of the Romish faith, persons whose inten tion and pursuit is to instruct their flocks in certain articles of faith, and in the observance of certain re ligious 'ceremonies, will never be indorPd or forced to embrace - a syetem.cif-education fdreigu from those purseits,- and which, though not hostile, are very. different from the opinions of those whom you welikt seled as their preceptors. Was the House to adopt such a line of policy, there would, under the pre sent circumstances of the world, *remain to the Ca tholic but one alternative, namely,, no education, no religious observance. They are, at present, de prived, in a great degree, of foreign education ; the. monasteries and institutions, which were formerly noted for those pursuits, have been' entirely over- turned. To Hander's, Spain; and Italy, it is .irepos sible for the Irish Catholics to 'repair for education; and will not the House take advantage of such cir.. cumstancei, and- duly appreciate the great national benefits which must arise from granting to them a domestic education ?—T o ratriA-theM N to the (jai ersity of Dublin, is, .in o th er wor d s, to Compel them to a state- o f ignor anc e. Th e .' t hi ng would be 2;) utter impossibility; -it is indeed emravagant to expea Catholic acquiescence to a scheme directly ,in defiance to the religion they profese; nor would the Professors of Trinity College do their duty, un less they performed their part, which the Catholic could not conscientiously approve. The Honoura ble and Learned Gentleman has asserted, that the aecountse attaching to this branch .of the Miscellie neous,expeediture, hate not been vouched. Had be thought proper. to have extended his inquiriesi ht; would have found, that l'he Commissioners of the ImFeest; Accounts had as retularly- certified this branch of services as of any other. The. two semi-ae ries have been said to be in a state of rivalry and hos tility. If such rivalry and hostility 'exist, lam sure they' exist not with the Catholics. We have alio been assured, that there is no visito rial power,. although et, is distinelly specified by the statute, that the Lord Chancellor and the Judges of the country shall be visitors of the moralS and . con dud of the scholars as connected with civil wisely and prudently abstaining from any inter ference either in their religiou s clot-trine or discipli ne If this measure had not been over an d over disitisSed by, the, Parliament of Ireland; if its eligibili ty bed' not been generally admitted ; if the diminution of Catholic incumbents was not by deaths tied other causes very considerable, then there might be some strong reasons for, not voting this' branch of ex penditure without mature inquiry. But lam sure ibis in . the recolleetion of the House, that when I proposed the ealscellaneous services of this year, I did most particularly' advert to the increase of the Maynooth Grant ; and . I was induced to make the. observation, anticipating ) , as I did, an opposition either. to the principle or amount of the Grant from' a certain quarter in this House ; I didehiek there :were certain persons disposed to quarrel with that: measure. But why' quarrel with me, .and not quar rel with my predecessor in office ? The objeetione, in consequence, of its not being referred to a Com mittee, as aeMoney Greet, was formerly as valid as it can be made against me. I haveintrodncede nothing new, but have undeviatingly adher e c i to the plan which was previously chalked out.. But I cannot conclude, without impressing on the House the small provision which i s cl a i me d for the educa tion of the Pri est h oo d o f at l east. , three of people.. Ev e ry p r i nci pl e o f humanity and s oun d policy seems to we to call on this House for its ac- quiescence." iit r a ant question this llM l l c rr i kited, e s i 7 n .:ll v li , l i sV l: l p t h i roo t u l v i ge e ld't otfl 'thte education of a great pof or tion of the population of the Empire, any sett of Ch r isti an ity should be tolerated, as 'any one sed of religion was better than no religion at all. He was astonished to hear from an Honourable' Gentleman over the ,way, that if the Roman. Catholics of Ireland were to be educated in the 'principles': of their faith, it was little ruatter 'whe ther, they received that education in Ireland or in. France. He was surprised, t o h ear t hi s, be cause it went to sai, that it was immaterial whether three millions 6f tue King's own subjeds were educated at