The Sun. — London, England, 1807-01-22 00:00:00

J~ 1~ sure Web they were called upon by the Centionifin opposite to repeal but this be did on very different rounds from those on which. the present system rested, in nirCh, SOS, when the repeal of the Additional Defence Bill was proposedYnt a time When the Bill yielded at the rate -of.Dkomutnert Year, without; the slightest injury.to 4116 qrdtnary re cruiting-, and 'subsequently, when it produced 3.00 Inen'a Week, and when-thus producing at th ' rale of 16 ,000 inen a year, he had called on Parliament not to abandon it. Had the Right Hon. Gent. proposed 'gorne. anxiliary Measure which' afforded the County the probability of giving to it the amount of force Which it, wanted, while the experiment. of his new sySte.ni was trying, he might perhaps have been in Awl- to accede to the continuation of that experi , Mem. But the Right Hon. Gentleman, in answer to a question which be had put to him, on *a recent veni t ig, had,,distindly disclaimed the supposition that my such auxiliary measure was in the botnetn plation.of his Majesty!s Ministers. Had sail' a mea ure been proposed, he should not have been so cbiti- . Pletely JuSti flea as he now felt himself to be in Opposing tt system which was not ; . only ; immediately injuridus, but prospectively ;desstruaive, to the British Army. It was for, the present Parliament to consider whether they would, for the first time, make themselves parties In this new-system of expence end ruin. For his own part he felt lie abandoned his public dtity did not he candidly state to the House that, strong as his im pression was of the mischief, disadvantages, and dan gers nrisingout of th e measure o f l ast y ear , Rivas t nothing cotpared with that which he felt in Con sidering the effeft which ..the - new code con tained in his 'Majesty's warrant of the 7th day of 06tober, for the regulation of the army,, and Which lead been laid on the table of the House of Cot - nil - ions during the present Session, was calculated to produce, It was with considerable regret that he had beard that, - Right-Hon. Gentleman the last SesSion declare that" he had m a d e hi s m i n d comp l e t e l y up on all the Joints, of his plan, yet this warrant shewcd that he h4not. Ventured to execute what he had slated it was his in *Dtion to execute. Of this be'tertainly did not torn- . Plain. But it slimed conclusively a distrust,' on the part of the .Right . .konourahle Gent!einan oil the very outset of his system, which he must have considered likely to fai.; ot.'he would not havedii 7 appointed the expedati9ns of the soldiers of twenty one years service. When he had'stated to the Right lion. Gentleman that the annual number of these amounted to five' or six ihousand•men, and that hi s rneasure in this respell was likely to counteract it self, he listened to those : statements with unbending firmnesS. But when he came to carry the ineaSilie. into execution, he dreaded the' consequence's', and altered his resolution. But there were other - Points in this code of regulations which 'had trued the apprehensions of danger In his Mind to swell into the utmost magnitude : he pledged him sclf to bring the subje& before um . House in depoiled discu.sion, although he had not de tetagted whether , to avail himself of the in . troddaion of the . Mutiny Bill for that purpose, Or to move a specific resolution on those points, Which, in his opinion, seemed likely to involve the country in fundamental military ruin. Id candour to the Right - Honourable Gentleman, he would state three orrfour of the leading points to which he. r t. .3eaed. The first (which was towards the close of . , 4 , , e Warrant), went to the complete subversion of `e situation of a soldier, as it had hitherto existed ia the British Army, and to the total destrution of .allorder and subordination. The Right Hon. Gen tleman had placed the claim of the soldier to a pension 4 4 a leg,ll cl an . not on the recommendation o f . • superior Officer, on which alone it could with safety rest. Th ese p ens i ons were from 6d. t o . is. pd. a day and it was . true, a discretionary-power was Vested in the Board of Kilmainhani, as to,the indi vidual amount. But the warrant• went on to declare, that no non-commissioned officer or soldier_ should be allowed to claim of right any such pension,.whqse disability arose from vice or misconduet. It fol- , lowed, therefore, that every one who was not dis chaiged from the consequences of vice or miscon dud, had a claim which a Court of Justice must confirm, and this without any limitation of time, j Without any consideration whether he ,had served 1 two days or twenty-one years. What the effeel of Pensions granted. by right,' and not on .the recom kendation of his superior Officer, would have on the kind of the soldier, and what etieai the disbursement of such large sums would have on the Finances of the ,nuntry, it was unnecessary.tor hitrito point out.— 4 :he next obje&ionable point in the warrant arose eta of the, answer to 'the question proposed that night. by him to the Right Honour a bl e Ge n tl eman . Alie Right Honourable Gentleman stated that. none Of the soldiers who had served 21 years had been discharged, but that he considered them as entitled to all the advantages of his measure. By that I leasure, a soldier who had, served 21 years was • entitled to retire on a ( pension of Is. a day, or 1 81. bs. a year. If he remained in the service, he 'was to receive an addition to his pay of a halfpenny , • day, or tbs. a. year, and another addition of • halfpenny a day, on every succeeding year in 'which lie' might choose to continue in the army.— Aow it would be found that Atte men who had served twenty-one years, were generally under 50 years of u&e. If, therefore, they continued in the army, it 14 'as probable that on the average they mightflq,49 for seventeen years.. The first additional 13s. t9 i Yearly p a y wou ld t h ere f ore b e wort h . b et weenttwelve and thirteen pounds sterling., The. next 'yeat-':si:is. Would be o n ly f r aCti ona ll y le ss va lh a bl e , a nd so on.. 3:he efreCt of this system would be to crush the k-puntry with the enormous expence, unless It was arrested by the band of Parliament. Let the Honse also, consider the etfed of this system of pensions on , Vie men sent early in life to the East and West Indies it ordained, that the soldier who had. l e . r ved 14, years in India should be entitled to discharge, and the same pensions as the man _,• P 0 had se rve d f 2.1 yearS in other circum s ta nc e s . Th e ' ;hat of th e E ast I n di es was h ea l thy. Supp O se :bat a s o ldi er went out at 18 years of age, at 32, e , c °r(ling to . the Right Honourable Gentleman's ot the subject, he would become a'veteran, - (l be e nt i t l ed to retire :on a pension of 181. 55. o whi ch r on the average h e would pro b ab lY receive o, :a . years ! Now, he Would put it to the House, it was possible, under such a system, to con v, ith the e v il s by which we were: threat would trace the operation one step far tilt A great number of these men would stay in a 'n'Y, suppose for eight additional years, he * - ouid then be entitled to an accumulated pension of 271.7 . 5. 6(1. - and the probable duration of his life be ing 22 years, a bounty to the amount of that sum of, 271,. 7s. 6d. would,thus be given on every year that he had served. But he wished to know what would he the situation of the Right Hon. Gentleman when he came to disband the army, or to reduce it - to the Peace d,Fstablishment.? Did he consider the nature of the iscretion which he would then be called upon to 'ex ercise ? fie would have three classes in which to dis tribute his discharges ; but how; without saddling the Country with an expence which it was not equal' to pay, could he avoid making his discharges out of the first class, and yet by doing that he would discharge the flower of the army. , Among the regulations of the warrant it was stated, that those who were dis charged should receive their pensions,, but that they should be bound to obey the directions of 'Chelsea HOspital, and cottfelo serve in the Veteran Battalions when they were called upon. In theconrse of a few years, however, these veteran battalions would be composed of Men in the prime Of life; and sensing -a . 'complete knowledge of their profes sion. How' could Government then avoid • con sidering those battalions as most tit for .active service, for foreign service, and more particular.: ly for West - India. service, for Which they were peculiarly-fitted ?, And thus ail the motives held out, and by which .men were to be ,seduced into the army, would cease to operate. He - ‘epeated that he was little - disposed to consider the situatima of this Country in a gloomy point .of view. He bad great confidence in .its strength-4e had great confidence in its resources; and he was happy to find that the Gentleman oppoitehegan to - think with him on - this latter subject. But it ever there was a moment in the history of any Country in which pecuniary eco, nomy was itore indispensibly necessary than in any other, this vas the moment; 'and Great Britain the Country. The Right Hon. Gentleman, he was sorry to observe, has shewn himself indifferent, not only to the economy of money, but also to the economy of time. Adverting to the capture of Buenos Ayres, li expressed his anxiety to know why so long a period had been suffered to elapse before the rein - forcementS had been sent to secure the possession of that valuable Province. in June Government receiv ed advices from St. Helena, that the Expedition had touched there, on its warfrom the Cape. .1-le. was. convinced, that within ten days of the time when those advices were received, three regiments of infantry might haver sailed ; and, whether the place was tenable or not, it would not \have embarrassed his Majesty's service to have sent that reinforcement, as it was necessary that troops should go to India'; unless they sent - a letter of recall to the forces at Bacons Ayres, Ministers had no option but to send 'a reintorcernent. Instead of doing this in the middle of June, they did not send a man until Oolober ; 'that was, until Lord Lauderdale's return to this Country; thus plainly Chewing that his motions were the governingvrinciples of their actions, and evincing a culpable negleet - of their duty by abstaining from a vigorous exercise of the power and resources of the country entrusted to them, at the moment when energy would have been particularly serviceable. His Lordship .concluded by declaring, that he should not oppose the passing-of the Resolution, but that he had - deemed himself bound to state to the House what he thought of the present Military Establish. tnent of the Country, and the dreadful evils which he was convinced would result from a perseverance in the Right Hon. Gentleman's military plan. Mr. Secretizra WINDHAM, in rising to reply to the speech, tife Noble Lord,- felt that there wire many of his charges which it was impossible for him to retaliate Tat hours before he was readyle, re move that part of the Noble Lord's accusation .Which reproached him with taciturnity; and certainly the , masa of extraneous matter which the Noble Lord had introduced into his speech had increased the subje& of reprOach—because it was impossible for kith to follow the Noble Lord through the whole of his arguments. From all that had been said by him in thriller debates, he did not conceive that it would be necessary thr hiM to express himself Much at length, and he should therefore in this instance ad here to taciturnity, by being as brief as possible. It might be thought. that a long speech called fot a long reply, :but here the Noble Lord' had imposed Upon .him the taciturnity, becaose he was not, at that late • hour; to consider the time that might be spent in a reply, but the time that remained to be spent.— :When he hid opened his measure in detail to the House, he had been obliged to do so in a speech of considerable length, a thing to which he always • felt a reluctance, but thy_ Noble Lord's incidental speech of this night kept that in countenance. The Noble . Lord had only touched lightly upon the topics which he•had intimated his intention of discussing more at length on some future day. In replying to what had , been said by the Noble Lord, he should first recur to that which was still fresh in the retolleaion of the House, and which the Noble Lord had no right to advert to, because it did not belong to the question before the Comtniuee be should refer to that poirit as a specimen of the Noble Lord's reasoning. It would make the House distrust similar assertions n hid) the Noble Lord might again make the found ation of the most extraordinary conclusions. The Noble Lord had set out•with a ilia which :was net founded. He had stated, that His Majesty's Minis ters had received the accounts of the destination of theExpeJition to Buenos Ayres, from St. Helena, in the early part of June, and had yet neglected to send out the proper reinforcements in time. The fad was, that these accounts bad not been received till the 24th of June ; that was the first notice Govern nient had of the Expedition, for which they were certainly unprepared. No improper del a y, h a d ta k en place. It was not in ten days that an' Expedition could be prepared, as • stated by the Noble Lord, to cross the Atlantic. The tranaports which had been:. left by the former : Government might have been sut:-I fur an Expedition across the Channel, but were not yet tit .for one across the Atlantic. Yet, as Government knew of the Expedition only on ahe 24th of June, it was impossible that any I.Npeelition, conveyed even by' a Balloon ; could havearrii.ed iu time to prevent the re-capture o f t h at Settlement oh the 12th of August, if the accounts oe that event were well founded. The Nohle Lord had been eq eel ly mistaken as to the date of ;he capture oc that Settle-: meat, au as fo the expedition of the passage of toe Narcissus. The capture of Buenos Airs had taken place early in July; and not on the with of juue, as stated by the Noble Lord ; and the Narci4ia, One of the fastest sailing.. Vessels in the Service. fold a 4 single onip to, nan been eiglitweeks on her "pesSege, He had stated' thus much, in tinder to •expose the systeM of:the'Noble Lord's reasoning As to alio : ther topic,' which con ,sti tuteda very conaidetable part of the Noble Lord's incidental speech, namely, the experice of the measures of la,it Sessiuin, that had been so much agitated - , and with so little success by the Hon. Gentlerhan opposite last year, that he was• sure those Gentlemen who had heard them, had never thought they should hear of it again. The Noble Lord, in calculating the expence of these mea sures in the last Session, had fallen into a whimsical inconsistency. • He first calculated the eXpence that would arise from discharging the men, and therfagnin • calculated the amount of expence from their remainL ing in the service: There was an old saying, that nothing could be. so fallaciOns as an'aceount, and. he thought that the same might be said of a calcula tion. What was the basis of the Noble Lord's cal- , culation ? That the life of a soldier, .not whilst in • the service, but when discharged from -it,• after hay , . ing exhausted his constitution in every: quarter of the globe, was the Barrie • the life of • any other man, after having served: 14 or e t years in the East Indies: Give him but his basis, and he must triumph. It was a matter•of doubt with him, however, whether that basis so granted would bear the Noble Lord out. The Hon. Gentleman opposite talked' of the ex- , pences, as if they \vele merepremiurn for the re cruiting the -army. He' did not deny that it would be an inducement to men toenliSt, to make a provi shin for their comfort and ease after their period of ' service. But an expence could not:be great : except by comparison with its object. One hundred pounds • would be a great expence ter- an objed worth only five ; at the same tune that one hundred thousand pounds would not be a „great expellee, if the object were worth. that sum. • The Volunteers seemed to be a favourite service with : the. Hon. Gentleman op posite. They . had lotted. fault with the redudion, not of the establishment,,but of the expence of that body. The, reduction was only to bring back all the Volunteers to the same allowance, by withdrawing the additional allowances to some ; favourite corps, and was desired by. the, great' majority of leers. By this reduction 'there was a saving of 300,0001. with which the HOD. Gentleman seemed dissatisfied, ):et, when it came to be a question - about 'granting some increase of pay or allowances _platten who spent their lives and Impaired their con, • stitutions in the service of.their country, they doled out their portion with a niggardly hand, and made it .a matter of reproach against him that he had brought the measure forward.. But he was not ashaMed of the reproach ; he would take the swell of the ob jeds and of the expence,' and appear before the world and. posterity ',to answer for their reproach. They said that the then, could be procured on better terms. They might haVe a scheme by which a body of men might be starved for lessexpenee than they could be supported in ease and comfort ; but surely there could be no real objection to au increase of allowance which had continued, unaltered since the Bth of Charles IL when they heard every day of applications for an increase of salaries.—As to the Noble Lord's charge, that the increase of allowances to the Navy had'*isen out. of the:increase to the :Army, he had been as correa : in' this_ as in his,, • other assertions f - for it - happened U . - mforiunafely for the Noble Lord's argurneot, that the increase to the .Navy had been,first granted. This he observed in order .to set 'tlie Niible'tord right : as for. the rest, he would ask Whe'll - ,er the- increase . was, ,more than it ought - to be ? not,,it was idle to talk about its amount. Was it'not right that men who had worn out their, healthy and lives in the service of their Country should .have some provision made for them that would secure to them comfort and ease in their old age ? It was rather a whimsical argument for the Noble Lord to use, that .the Men who could look forward to a comfortable provision would be trickers—whilst those whO should be obtained,by crimps, fand whose morals were corrupted by .the large bounties, would be , fitter persons for the Army. The money that was advanced in the latter case was destrudive of discipline, whilst the other objects of .eventual Support and comfort were best calcu. dated. to promote it. Every thing- that the soldier would have to expe& at the end of his serviee'would . be.a pledge of his good condua. .The first objea of the measure was, to insure a comfortable provision for the soldiers after their service ; and the. next was, to get a better description of men. Besides, it would have a natural t en den cy to lower the bounty. The recruiting at present produced two to one more than in any correspondent periOd of any fyrmer year, and there had been already a reduaion 'of five gui 7 neas in the bounty. Though that reduction was at present but five guineas, he did not bound his ex peaations to that sum. When the measure should be well known, and its effects felt in the country, he looked to its reduaion altogether. As to the effe& of the measure in time of peace, instead of discharging the men from the first class, they should be discharged from the others, in which case they would .be, always at th e serv i ce o f th e country, on the renewal of war, without the intervention of high bounties. The same practice' had prevailed in Rome, and he believed in the -French navy. This consideration would console the Noble Lord. As to what the Noble Lord had said of the inefficiency of the measure, he should not follow him into the de tail, but take a more compendious' course, by with drawing the foundation of his argument. It did not rest on better grounds than the Noble Lord's assertions respectingßuenos Ayres. ' The Noble Lord had ascribed to him, and to the great man who Was now no more, of whom he could never himself think, but with regret, nor even without having his heart filled with feelings of kindness, that they had urged the necessity of raising the Military Establish ment of the country to a very high degree by this . measure. But there was a distinaion to be made' between the expediency of augmenting the Military Establishment of the' country, and measures for forcing its Military Resources into aelivity by sud den and violent means. The hitter he disapproved of, as, however likely to have a temporary effea, they could not but in the end exhaust these re- sources. As to the strielurei which thy Noble Lord `had imputed to hiM on the measures of former Ad-- tninistrations, they might have been right or wrong, but there was nothing in the Measures that bad been rtcomniended by him since, that was ivonsistent: with them. All that he had•said waSdireCied against measures fiat' forcing the Military Resources of -the country for temporary purposes. Such had been the• Army of Resurre. such the Pariqh P.;P His obsetratiom haa hetet been dite&ed against the measures which might have been calculated to . answer the pulp ores for which they were intended, but against laying violent bands tipon the means of providing a permanent supply for the army. He still Continued of the same opinion with respea to those measures, hut he would not allow that the Parish TIM was entitled to the same credit as the former measure, which had raised above4o,ooo men in a short time. He should nut enter into any detail to shesv that the second Additional Force A& 'had not been prodnaise. Whatever increase had taken place in the. Army during the Administra tion' ofthe author of that Bill, Was wnollyoWing to the measures of the antecedent Administration, the insufficiency of whose ,military messores had been made :the ground of its removal fro‘O oillee. If i;e, were to deckia from the increase of the Army during _the late Administration, the number that had been obtainedfrom the Army of Reserve, and that bld been recruited frorothe Militia, the remainder woe 11 not be an objea of apprehension to atiy, Administra's, flan. :What he wished to impresS tipoit the House was, that there were tWo classes of measures for re-: cruiting the Army. The first was such as the Army_ of Reserve, which formed ti:c military reschrees of the country in this instance, but afterwards eshausi s ed and relaxed them. The other class was calcu lated to procure not an immediate, but a, regular, copious, and permanent supply 'for the Army.---a This distlnetion would do away the futility of the Noble Lord's reasons. He. had never said that any immediate step ply was expeaed, and some of his frit:ills:lS" had thought that he had not been sanguii - ie 'encaugii With respe& to its .. eifeas. His hal he s hi " Non sunnun ex fulgorc, sed 'ex fumo dare lucern." As to the charge of,the failure of his, measure, he - should only say, that when it shookl„be known, he was convinced that it would ohtain : allbf the popula . tion-of the eeuntry that it would be desh*ahle to.have enter into., the Army. 'As to the means Of putting the Army qn a footing to obtain this class.of the pas pulation,:at broad distinaion was necessary,_ The first was by making the service eligible to that part of, tint population, and next the adoption of the pros per measures for facilitating the recruiting. The first mode would be of service in any other that it might be, necessary to adopt.. Eyee insase corns pulsory measures should be found necessary, .this would do no harm. If the circumstances Of the 'country should render another An - lay of Reserve re= quisite, this would make it less otferons :and severe: The Noble Lord had said, that-the measure bad fail ed but if what he had himself stated were ,true, so far from having failed, the measure was on hs .vay to complete Success. The only criterion to the success of a measure was, a comparison of what it fray done with w'hat had been promised. He appealed to those Gentleinen :who had been: present at his openiess Speech, ‘v het her he bad promised any great influA into the Army, in the first instance, from his !fleas 'mire ; . The reverse, of this was,the case. The for- Ingots:tea:hire had produced a number of men aofirst, but failed afterwards. This measure he bad stated was one that would grow up with time, till it should atibrd a copious supply to the Army. As to the sc• cosation of the Nubie Lord, that he had neglated to.fbrward the exectUirirroftis awn ineatire, fie had no objection to sacrifice himself for the sake of his measure. Hit would do as the man who Used to sell i game at College did : when. told that his gable smell ed, badly No-Sir, No Sir, (replied he) ',tis I that, smell.." The progress of thiS, like every great measure, must he sloW, but it bad not been . as slow as . he supposed it .woold. -The measure was not yet in full opera tions nett; were various details- which could not have been,hitherto put into executiou— The Chefs - sea Pensioners',. increase had not, yet been made I , public,. to ;the ohje&s of it. The Aft — had passed in the interval between the payments, and it was not to any. purpose to ,make the increase known till this Christmas payment. , When -every one of those Pensioners in every part of, the kingdom shall be seen in possession of their improved in comes, -.the circumstances must have a considerable effe& on the recruiting., The people, who know no thing of the Ants of Parliament, will have satisfac tory evidence. of -the benefits derived from the mea sure, and every pensioner will be an assistant to the recruiting service. He had said thus much of the measure, from which he now entertained a greater prospect than ever But-it was rather Whimsical to hear that Noble Lord talk of the failure of a meas sure—or contend, that it may have failed,at first, it might not be successful afterwards.-- The Army-'' of Reserve had succeeded in the hrt instance, thoogh it had failed afterwards.---a The Parish 'Bill participated in the- defeats of both. Though it had been passed in the month of July, it had not produced • a Single man in the month of September. The first return shewed him it had produced but six Men. In -061ober, 1805, when it was to 'have produced 40,000 Men, it had produced btit 8000 ; and in the. two years in which it bad been in operation, it had produced but 15,000. — This would be enough to teach the Noble Lord not to be forward to condemn measures for failure. The Parish Bill had created. penalties to the amount of 500,0001. and though it had never, been said that it -would not produce men--produced them in a way onerous and injurious -to the morals of the people. Besides, it contained in itself the'seedS of its own destrOait), The great benefit of Ole present s y stem was, that it .would provide for ,the progressive sup- ply of the Army. n .progiessi6n made pith pre fer it to any measure that would have a sudden or a violent operation—because the state of the Army was such, .being 112400 stronger than at the be ginning of the last year, as ndt to require such mea sures. For this state of the Army, or the measur e s that had produced it, Ire did not t a ke any credit to himself. The statements of the Noble Lord appeared to him to be founded on fallacious grounds respeaing the soccos of the recruiting during the last - year. He had himself a statement to male on this head which was founded on accounts that the House could relr upon. They were the accounts from the Office of the Inspeacas General of Recruits. All the accounts of this Office were kept with the greatest regularity and all the business of the recruiting of the kin,t dont was carried oti through this Office, dud by the Inspeaors of the Recruits in the differeet districts. By a noniparison of these accounts with the ac :coontssof correspondent periods of former years, I*.e found that there was a growing increase, small at first, but at: length amounting to ati exesss -in the proportiout oftwoso one. If the Nobte Lord-should ohs