The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-20 00:00:00

tune prevention of Abuses, the existence of which admitted." Lord FOLKESTON explained, and observed, that he never said, that the Bill should stand Over for six weeks, in order to he passed then; but he had said, it would be proper to delay it for six weeks, in order to consider whether it should be passed then or not. Me K/NNA/RD said, he agreed in the senti ment which had been uttered respeEting the Noble Lord now at the head of the Admiralty ; and he must say, he felt• himself by no means liable to the censure which:seerned to be ready to he cast on the oppon ents of this Bill, " that they objected to Men and not to Measures :" He disowned the idea of op posing this Bill for the purpose of gaining popula rity. He begged leave also to say, in justice to the Framers of the Bill, that he believed them to be . actuated by the best motives. He approved of the principle of the Bill, as a measure intended for the CorreElion of Abuses ; at the same time he miglitbe allowed to say, he did not approve of the mode in tended to be adopted for that purpose : he might he convinced of the existence of an evil, without being bound to approve of any measure which might be proposed as the remedy for such evil. That was his case now ; he admitted that the evils. Com plained of did exist, but he did not approve of the manner in which these evils were proposed to •be remedied by this Bill ; he hoped, therefore, that the House would not order it to be read a third time to-day. It was a Bill of great importance, end required great attention. It was stated, 'that the Bill was brought forward without previous commu nication to His Majesty's Law Officers, and to. which, therefore, their attention had not been directed ; and this, he thought, he was war_ ranee' in repeating, for had the Bill been shown in time to these Learned Gentlemen, it would not have beee - brought forward in so crude a state as it was i.ll, when . first presented to the House ; of the truth of this, the amendments in the Committee less night bore testimony. He did not say that the Bill was not greatly correCled, or that much of that corredion was not owing to the labours of those Learned Gentlemen last night in the Corn. mittee ; but he did say, that it ought to have re ceived much more than it did, of the attention of these Learned Gentlemen, before it was thought be fore the House : it was a Bill of too touch import ance to have been thus condoned. He had had the honour to move for the produCtion of the Admi ralty Patents, for the purpose of seeing whether they had the power to correct the abuses here com plained of, He was anxious that these Patents should be duly considered, before the Bill now be fore the House was past. He did not, perhaps, move for every Document which was requisite for a due consideration of this Bill ; bet he recom mended to the House a fuller consideration of all the fats to which this measure related, than they had hitherto had an opportunity' of entering into. He maintained that the spirit of the Patents to which he had already alluded, and which were now before the House, went to the full and compieet correCtion of all abuses that could exist in the Navy in every one of its Departments. It contained, not only the desire, but also the injunetion of His Majesty, for this Board to institute inquiry into, anti remedy abuses in every depai cment of the Ad_ miralty, so that the Board of Admiralty really had the power which was to be given to the Commis.. sioners by this very Bill. In opposing the Bill he was influenced by another very important conside ration, that of keeping entire the responsibility of the Board of Admiralty ; if they really wanted power to correct some abuses in the departments of the Navy, let Parliament give them the power they wanted, and then the Public would look up to them as the natural guardians of that deportment ; they would continue responsible for that purpose ; but when a new description of persons had a part of the charge delivered to them, as was proposed, the responsibility would be divided between the Admie ralty Board and the Commissioners, and it might riot be always an easy thing to distinguish on whom it attached in each particular ; whereas by keeping it entire, and attaching it solely to the Board of Admiralty, the Public would always know where to look to ; and it was with regret he saw a departure from that policy which made the Of- Acers of the Crown responsible for every thing that was done inoffices that were immediately under the Crown ; for in this case, the Commissioners were not under the appointment of the Crown, because they were nominated in the Bill, He had not heard yet, Whether these Commissioners were to be compensated by any emolument, but it would be in vain to sup pose that any Gentleman would take upon himself the labour which this Bill would impose on a Com missioner acting under it, without the expeCtation Of .very considerable emoluments. 'I his made him prefer the old established jurisdiction of the Admi ralty. For these reasons he really hoped the House would agree to the Motion. Mr. COURTENAY explained. Mr. STURGES said he could not help advert ing to what had been said on the opposition which had taken place to this Bill. It -was an opposition not to this Bill now before the House, but to an other Bill ; for the alterations which took place in it last night in the Committee, had made another Bill of it : and Gentlemen, by comparing the Bill as it now stood, with what it was before the Amendments were made in it, would see the pro priety with which it had been opposed ; and be owned lie looked . back with satisfaction on She part , he took in opposing the Bill, in.. asznuch as the opposition to it had been the means. of removing many of the objeCtionable parts of it : and he wished, that those who might have courted popularity from the Bill, as it first stood, would compare it with the Bill as it stands now, and" if they did, he was deceived if they would not see reason to be convinced, that their expeEtation of popularity in that particolar, was ill-founded. For his own parr, he preferred the consciousness of laving done his duty, to any hopes of popularity that might be expeCled to follow the exertions of any individual in that House ; and he trusted, that uo notion of popularity, independent of a sense of 4uty, would 'ever aduate hint iii his condsitl in that EpLtsc ! . le thou ,lit this Measure objeCtionable when it was brought forward, lie seated his •objee . .. tions, zhd the House cooeu;red with him in t!'.oks ing, that these objections were well-foundeti, else the Bill would not be in its present shape : he could not, therefore agree, that any censure could be • justly past on those who opposed this Bill. He dial not like to say much in vindication of him. self, for he knew how ungracious a task that must be at all times, but the turn which the dis cussion of this measure had taken had rendered that,. in some measure, unavoidable. Here he entered into a vindication of himself at considerable length, in the course of which he observed, that he had no objet in view but the performance of his duty : he had no wish to screen_delinquents in the Navy, any more than any other delinquents ; he had no con nedion with any of -them, nor had he ever filled any department to give a prejudice to him in his Way of. thinking, so that whatever judgment he possessed, it was certainly unbiassed.He admired, in common with the rest of the world, the brilliant achievements of the Noble Earl now at the head of the Admiralty as an Officer in the service, but did not feel himself hound to have the same esteem for his conduct in the direction of the Civil Affairs of State, on which he must be alloWed to speak freely.—He took occasion to notice the condud of the late Administration, of which he spoke highly, particularly of Earl SPENCER, and concluded with observing, that he beheld the probable assent to the present Bill with much less regret, than he should have done, if none of the amendments had been adopted, and the Bill had past in its first and most objediouable shape, Mr. FULLER asked, whether if this Bill passed, Administration meant to give immediate considera tion to the business of Prize Agents, for that would be a duty which every man would see the necessity of its immediately taking place, for the Service of the Country at large ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was impossible for him to say, what proceed. ing would be adopted by the Commissioners, in the event of the present Bill passing into a law ; they, undoubtedly, would adopt that which appeared to them to be best calculated to answer the purposes in tended by the measure. Mr. WARD spoke in favour of the Bill :—he contended, • that the necessity of the case called for some measure of this kind, which was by no means of an unprecedented nature, as had been stated ; for independent of the cases alluded to. by the CHAN CELLOR.' of EXCIIE'QUER on a former night, if any Gentleman would look to the Ad of the- r3th and f th Charles 11. he would find that Commissioners were appointed with stronger powers than were now propsed to be given. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that the Question now before the House, was not whether this Bill was a good or a bad one ; but whether it ought or ought not to be postponed. He had listen, ed with all the attention in his power to the argu. menus which had been urged, and, he confessed, he had not heard the slightest reason assigned for postponing the Bill. The Hon. Gentlemen did not pretend that they lid nut understand the Bill, nor that they were not prepared to give their opinions upon it. Some Gentlemen had expressed their dis approbation of the principle of the Bill; others had disapproved of particular Clauses. These were very food reasons to induce these Gentlemen who entertained them, to oppose the Bill altogether, or to propose to leave out those Clauses ; but they were surely no reasons why the Bill should be de layed. 'lt was therefore obvious that Gentlemen were fighting merely for the triumph of protrafting a measure, against which they had been unable to assign any solid objection. As to what had fallen from an Hon. and Learned Friend of his behind him, who seemed to suppo , e that improper motives had been attributed to him, he, for one, had heard no imputation of that kind upon that Hon. Gentleman, than whom no man stood higher in the estimation of every Gentleman in the House,. who had the happiness of being acquainted with him. He could not, however, avoid making one observation, which was, that the Learned Gentleman's objeftion to the Bill, was not so strong as it appeared to be before, although the Clause upon which his objec tion was principally founded, still remained unaltered in the Bill. He then alluded to what had fallen from the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, re speding the Trial of some Officers, which he con sidered as quite irrelevant to the present question. Mr. STURG ES explained. Lord TEMPLE said, that there had been insi nuations, that those who had opposed this Bill, meant merely to obtain a triumph over the Mini sters, and to throw obstacles in the way of the Public Service. He wished to acquaint those Gentlemen who threw out such insinuations, that it was highly disorderly to attribute improper motives to any Member of that House, and that it was equally improper to say that any Gentleman wished to throw obstacles in the way of the Public Service. He agreed with the Noble Lord who had 'made the Motion for putting off the Bill. If there was any necessity that this Bill should be passed before the Recess, it ought to have been brought in earlier in the Session, and then it would not have been ne= cessary to have been hurried, in a manner that appeared to him to be indecent, through the House. He was far from wishing to stifle any inquiry, or from contending that no abuses existed ; but' he maintained that this was an improper manner of getting at them. Before he sat down, he wished to put two questions to His Majesty's Ministers : The first was, whether the Gentlemen who had been appointed to aft as Commissioners under this Bill, had signified their assent to their nomination? And, secondly, to what extent it was to be retro spedive ? He wished to know l if the Commis sioners were at liberty to call upon the Descendants and Representatives of people who might have committed abuses in the reign of James IL ? Nr:S#EPIDAN said, he agreed "perfectly with what had fallen from the Noble Lord, on the im proptiety of attributing improper motives to Gen tle Ten, and he thotight the observation came with great weight from the Noble Lord, because he al, vfays illustrated it by own pradice and ex r • ample. Th e,Noble Lord Complained of persooali which he was the More ,justified in doing,. be -cause he never indulged in personality himself; be'sure he'had sometimes Called Ministers " YlluNt Condullors, Milk and Water Ministers, a Marwhipii tn;xttire," 844. &c. ; but the Noble Lord did not mean this for personality, but as good sound logical reasoning. The Noble Lord objected to improper motives being ascribed to Gentlemen, but it certainly was equally improper in the Noble Lord to say, that Ministers had brought forward this Bill upon un true grounds. With respect to the Bill itself, it was, in his opinion, entitled not only to the appro bation, but to the gratitude of the House, and he had not heard one word of argument either against the Bill itself, or to shew that it. ought to be put off. An Honourable Gentleman (Mr. KINNAIRD) who had moved for the Patents of the Admiralty and Navy Board, now states that they were not sufficient for his purpose. But even if it appeared that these Boards did possess these powers, still when it was known that they had never been acted upon, it was the Strongest reason for the Bill. This was very far from being, as it had been insinuated, a contest for popularity, between the late and the present First Lord of the Admiralty ; they were, he was sure, incapable of being actuated by such motives. The abuses which existed were flagrant in their nature, and enormous in their extent, and, he believed, that, for the last ten years, no less a sum than three millions a year had been lost to the Public by peculation and embezzlements of various kinds. He had no doubt but that if the Noble Lord who was lately at the head of the Admiralty had remained in office, this very Bill would have been brought forward, and in that case the House would probably not have heard of the Noble Lord's (TEMPLE) objections. Some objections had been made against this Bill, because it was retrospedive, but as one of its objects was to detect abuses which have existed, if it was not retrospective, it would be absurd and nugatory. An answer made by Lord Burleigh, in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, appear ed to him rather applicable on the present occasion. An objection, somewhat similar to those now start ed, was made to some measure proposed by that Noble Lord. His answer was, " If,, in going a long road, you found you had dropt your purse, and wished to find it, would you turn back, or walk forward." He confessed he was both surprized and concerned to hear the insinuation which had been thrown out against the Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty. If any charge could be brought forward against,the conduct of the Admiralty, let it be fairly and distindly brought forward ; but he strongly disapproved of these indirect insinuations. Much had been said about the Dock-yards, and about persons being improperly dismissed ; he was sorry . that any answer had been made to these ob. servations, because, if they were true, they ought to have been made. the ground of a charge ; because if the Noble Lord had been guilty of the conduct that was imputed to him, he was not fit for his situ ation. Nothing, he thought, could be more un candid than these indirect attacks. He wished Gentlemen would at once move for the dismissal of that Noble Lord, and they would see what sort of- a reception such a motion would meet with in that House. He was perfedly convinced that the Noble Lotd would not use the :powers' entrusted to him in the manner that had been Sug gested, but it was very possible that he'rnight feel it necessary to dismiss a man upon. information..that he. might not choose, and which.it might be very improper to lay before the Public. Mr. ELLISON approved of the Bill, which he thought. was called for by the abuses that were known to exist, and which was perfectly caleulated for the detection and prevention of these evils, .He thought the present Administration entitled to great praise for their conduct upon this and other occa sions ; they had ;hewn that they had possessed both the suaviter and the fortiter. Mr. lIARBORD said, he was enabled, from his own observation, to say, that this Bill was very much wanted. He had had opportunities of know ing that abuses to a very great extent had been car ried on, and therefore he gave his hearty support to a measure the object of which was to suppress Mr. ALEXANDER suppoited the Bill. Thf CHANCELLOR of the • EXCHEQUER rose to answer the two questions which had been aut to him by the Noble Lord : he begged, how. ever to observe, that the,first of his questions, viz. Whether . the persons who were • appointed Corn. alissioners by the Aft before the House, had signi ied their acceptance of the nomination, was not one which the Noble Lord was. entitled to put. It was not always presumed that the consent of the indivi. dual was obtained, because in the Ad, 26 of the King, there was a provision made in case the Com missioners should not accept their office, which could not have been necessary, if the consent of the indi vidual was in every case to be obtained previously to his nomination.. He had, however, no objec - tion, in the present instance, to state, that in this case, of four out of the five Gentlemen who had been nominated, their acquiescence had been obtained ; with regard to the fifth, his consent certainly had not been obtained ; he was not in town, nor was he acquainted with his appointment., Captain M4RKHAM said, that after what had fallen from an Hon. Gentleman (Mr, Sheridan) it was not necessary for him to take up the time of the House; he wished merely to observe, that if any Gentleman had any charge to make against the Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty, they should dolt at once, fairly and openly. But it' was ungenerous to attack that Noble Person for aas, as if they were entirely his own, whereas they were ads of the whole Board. All the Admiralty wish ed, was, that those who disapproved of their con dud, would bring forward their charges openly and fairly ; .the- Admiralty did not wish to screen any part or their conatlet; they had nothing to hide. If they were'iO be attacked, he hoped it would be openly, and not in' a snake-in-the-grass kind . of Way. Lord PROBY said, he had upon a former occa sion alluded to the case of a person who had been dismissed from one of the Dock-yards, after thirty years service ; he confessed he did think this was a hard case when he brought it forward, because he had always entertained the highest opinion of the map.—He felt, however, no difficulty in retracting the charge he had made, because he had since found that` this - person had had an opportunity of defending himself, which he had not thought groper to do ; it • was therefore fair to seTpose that he had beer. t; perly dismissed. Mr. SHERIDAN said, though he was decide: ly in favour of the- Principle of the Bill, yet the' were other principles for which he had always COn tended, and which he would always maintain. 0:' of those wac, to prevent the increase of the Patrol: age of the Crown, and, therefore, he could have , wished that-the Commissioners had not been Mem bers of Parliament. But as in case of the death, X' of any of the Commissioners, the appointment would , belong to the Crown, he begged leave to move an Amendment, the objet of which was to prevent the Crown, in any such case, from appointing Meu'' bers of Parliament to fill the vacancy. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQCV : said, that perhaps the more convenient way to ac• complish the object the Hon. Gentleman had io view, would be, to leave out the Clause in which it was provided, that the appointment of any-Mem ber of Parliament to be one of the Commissioner' should not vacate his seat. By leaving out tliat Clause, the °Ned of the Hon. Gentleman would be obtained. He was far from wishing to under rate the jealousy which gave rise to this motion, because upon that jealousy depended the best pri' vileges of that House. But, at the same time, . 11 c-, thought it was desirable that one or two 'of the Commissioners should he Members of Parliaments because their...proceedings .would probably be the subjed of Parliamentary discussion, and if one P t two of them were Members of that House, thei would be able to give great information. Thet g were cases in which Commissioners had been sr pointed, who received rewards for their services, who were Members of. Parliament. Among the Commissioners for the AmeriCan Loyalists, was Mr. Colts, late 'Member for Nottingham, and though time was no provision in this' Bill, that the Commissioners should receive any Salary,• yet he had no hesitation in saying, that it was intended that they should be rewarded for their labours. JA the case of the Commissioners appointed-to examine into Ole state of the Prince of-, Wales's Debts, though he, holding the ofEce he then did,. a nd Con— sidering himself as a servant of the •H o its - r., di& not think it right to take any rewards for his la- bour as one of the Commissioners, yet 7 lle was no;. sure that an application would. not,. be made._ in., your of other Gentlemen who had also afted Commissioners, and whose services_ had been beneficial. • Mr. SHERKDA)V said, he was happy that he had not been disappointed iri the expeaations he 110 formed of the Honourable Gentleman's can dour ; he still however_ thought it better to insert the Amendment he had proposed, than merely.-tg leave out the Clause, as suggested by the Right Hon , Gentleman. • He expressed.hia surprize that an 21)." plicac ion should be intended. to be made for any re muneration for any of the tommissioners appointC 4 to examine into the Prince of Wales's Debts. The CHA.YcULOR of the EXCHEQUER said, upon reconsidering the subjea, he cvas dined to t thrtnodrproposed-by tlemqn was better thane the plan he• had suggested for merely leaving out the Clause, bee:litSe a s the office of the Commissioners in this Bill were nog stated to be places of honour .or profit - , they woo not come within the meaning of the 6th of Quee n Anne. Sir WM. PULTENEY said, he thought 14 1 1i 14 ' stern were entitled to the Thanks of that House for the candour they had displayed upon this occasiuor It was true, that many cases existed in which Met hers of Parliament had been C omm i ss i one r s ; but thought it was a pradice .that ought to be checke.a.t and therefore . he approyekt of the Amendment With regard, to the Pill, it had his entire concur! rence, and he thought it :did great credit to. N ll ' nisters. After a few words from the Arroß - NET GV"/ I ' RAL, Mr. DENT, and Mr. KINN4IRD, Mr. StW RIDAN's Motion was agreed to, and the Clause alb luded to by the CHANCELLOR of th e Exakig.2 lls * was left out. Mr. rANSITTART brought up a-Clause to ena bl e, : the Commissioners to defray the incidental expenC of Cletks, &c. which was agreed to. Some other verbal alterations were made in tiff Bill, which was then passed, and Capt. MARF O6 ' was ordered to carry it to the Lords. PRp/ILECE. Sir F. BURDETT gave notice, that it was intention on Monday to call the attention of f '„ HouSe to a subject that appeared to him to be c ° , netted with its Honour and Privileges—a.ANorn` n : Paper bad been put into his, hands, called 'rit e TRUE BRITON, which contained an account of c", proceedings of some Friends of Mr. Mainwar i l at the Crown and Anchor ;—This account anpea, re lie to him to he a high contempt of that House, and , c was the more anxious to give this notice, beca%f these proceedings were signed with the names MO Members of that House, viz. Mr. 131,Acttal i ' d ; and Mr. H. TH O R N T O N, the former of whom 1" 0 " peared to hare acted as Chairman.—Fie wished s c know whether it would not be right that th °, o Gentlemen should be required tq attend in this places on Monday ? The SPEAKER said, the present notice Was Acient ; if the attendance of those Gentlemen sh° be afterwards found necessary, an order might made for that purpose. The Malta Bill w tro+ as then read a third time - passed. The other Orders of the Day were then g Gr ' r through, and at half past seven o'clock the Fa' ) adjourned till Monday. From the LONDON GAZETTE, Dec. 18, Lord Char/Iberia Sri's-Office, Dec. 18. 4 . Norict is hereby given, that there w ill he - Levee at Sr. James's, on Wednesday next the instant. Commission; in the /loyal Pembroke Militia, s igned 4 .Y Lieutenants (1 the Counv of Pembroke. „., a r,(' • Owen Philipps, Esq. to be Lieutenant-Colonel -Coll"' ant, vice Lloyd, resigned. Dated Tilly 2, 18 e 2. f C ' . lohn Matthias, Esq. to be Major, vice Philipps , P rg)- ° joh p n at id cl w a a s t a des b°v T e. ucker, Esq. to be C4Ptain• Datod H•fein. bet t, 402.