The Sun. — London, England, 1802-04-06 00:00:00

• but he did not think the Tax was so grievous as some persons had stated ; he knew the importance of the use of this article in salting provisions, and in rnanufaCtures, &c. These were very grave and great considerations, and should have their weight here. after; but he could .not say that this was, under all 'tile eircumstams:s, the season for that purpose; and he had the comfort to refleCt, that the pressure 11 Pon the Lower Classes of Society in consequence of tiii,, duty, was net very severe. Not that he did not wish to see it repeeled, he certainly did, and Wished he could assent to it now ; but he did not t hink, wrier all the circumstances of this Conn try, 00 wo . Ad be justifvfd in so doing. He would n° " r :elate to the Committee, under their 6i stioa heads, the substance of what he had already stated in detail. The whole Supply was 240614,4301. of which there Was - sar Ireland the sum of 4,808,3381. The whole of the Ways and Means already voted ; as 27,Q30,874.1. The s um actually wanted for -;.lnteresr, Man agement , Sec; was 3,211,2021.; and e had provided Taxes for raising the sum of ~,t°o o. oool. The general ground of the opera ston of the two Sinking Funds united, he should ilve to bring forward on Friday, or Monday next. said h e was not aware it would he necessary for to delay the Committee any longer upon this s cl ub jea he certainly did look back on the con_ i a utt of that House and of this country during the tiosisotkendine years with pride and satisfaction ; and be , forward with hope. He was truly convinced, o :fj kuY Prudence and vigilant economy (respecting d e , i ; c ', l, however, he made no promises or professions, T ,. -rl ng only to be judged of by his cOnduti) he 1 - I ; us ted he said, that by a firm and a temperate system, i r e Itl aY promise to ourselves security and comfort. • an - ri lll tist be the wish of every Member of that House, 10 e very man in this Country who felt an ardour We I ts w e lf are . T o secure to us:our a d vantages, i,shoUld adopt, to use t h e wor d s o f hi s N o bl e E r . s hould t h e S ecretary o f State (Lord HAWKES bI,IItiI, a system of Conciliation and Firmness, ef t which we might preserve to ourselves the ,„ s s i ngs of Pe a ce, which were to be preserved, n „ - - by insuitiog the honour of other Nations, in u hy invading their Securities, or breaking jo:P : (41 ) Or quesioning the independence of other b e -7 , ' t3n s, but by feeling he blessings of Peace, and b rid B prep are d to vindicate and maintain them. • .thi s et ' these iiporessions, he felt a eenviaion that a We s tem, duly followed, would continue to afford as 11 grounded hope of tranquillity and ease, evil s as prosperity and independence. The ( it War, he .hoped, and indeed was con_ not ' had ceased to operate on us. This should I\r nt lll qice us tbNet the maxims of our true policy. system of jealousy, for that he trusted we ay - ,"iu never p ursue , b ut a we ll direCted reoollated i n k' only of and caution. It was thus, and i (J uly we could continue to enjoy those bless vas f i br Whi c h t hi s Country was so eminent. He t i l a e s,tnaokful f or theindulg,ence he had, received from th`-ommittee, and sensible he owed an apology for t i e . length of time and manner in which he had al ined their attention. 1 1 , I.ll e C HA NcEnnoR of the EXCHEQUER the ev en e y ed a-Resolution for raising th e sum of Twenty Mmliionis by way of Loan. o e. WHITBREAD said, he did no t i n t en d to as Il ltleh at- large into the subj e ct, b ut re p resent i ng , he did,. a respeCcable body of men, whom he h e n sidered to b e i n th i s instance oppressed, he must 'Mowed to protest against the plan of the Right .th? l ''' Gentleman. It might be from sensations of na ture that he was not inclined to participate by li t , () Se expressions of joy which were manifested lki l ,.;"e. House u on hearing the statements of the p os ' e ' d ll I lion. en p tleman. By the measures now pro_ te rn the Right Hon. Gentleman, the solid Sys_ to- b ° : F iotinee established by his Predecessor was the p - en l tirely done away, and however material Illou g i r l `',,eessor of that Right Hon. Gentleman tha t soi t ., l ne Income Tax to be to the existence of repe a l ed SYstemvf Finance, that tax was now to be tlti-i t I ,' Thus th e Ri g h t H o n. Gentleman, however at l 'i o e" e Praised the conduct of his Predecessor, yet p on — i s aine tim e by hi s a ct s h e pa sse d a ce nsure I nca " tha t conduel. H e re j o i ce d at the repeal of t h e p ose r t l i le I . .ax, but he wished some tax had been pro. low er would not press so injuriously on the to IN; orders of t h e p eop l e , as t h at now prop ose d alt and Which Beer by the Right Hon. Gentleman, Of s 0105 t immediately operate to raise the price tip, o ,`, ‘ „ er • When former taxes had been imposed all y "'alt, it had invariably been the case that an to t i' 4 nee had been made, or a drawback allowed, ag~ißrewers, for the purpose of proteaing them Getnst private breweries, but now the Right Hon. aa ce lt 2 en ian wished to take away ail those allow_ as t "' and. would raise the price of Beer so high, 3 ,4 Preclude every advantage to the Brewer. For emit )r , e arspast the profits of the Brewer had been e ons e 'Y gone, from the high price of every article tiled in the brewery ; the Brewers had been if thi s to make even interest for their capital, and Whil e ls r o t wa s to be laid on, it woul.l not be worth is no carry oo the tr a de. He would suppose a g o 4 ntity o f 20 0,000 barrels to be brewed by one be a sum of ;0,0001. would immediately the t r ,akeo out of the noCket of the Brewer ; and that';o_lhmittee would he so ~- ; ood as to observe, pack e t money cou ld thus be taken out of the th e ,ts of th e B rewers, any future Chancellor of 11 011 12 xslieque r m i g h t with the satee facility take the, tr Y out o f t h e pockets of any other trade whatever. us ted the imp ose ,_Committe e would not consent to ,it tax wood Beer, o r at any rate t h at t h ey Would t )0t accede to any proposition for taxing the Stolast on hand. The Po-ewers had in the course of season imported a large quantity of foreign Carlel, but unfortunately the speculation turned out ‘ 0a ,.".3 . had one, and a loss of not less than 40,0001. 40:7 . c onsequence sustained by them ; he hoped me chef would be afforded to them in this in 4nee. H e though t the Right Hon. Gentleman had %ta te(' tl .t amoun t of - this Tae at a sum far below b ar W as likely adoally to produce, as instead of hatk. ,000 he conceived it would produce 2,500,0001. _should turn out to be the case, and as the amo unt than Gentleman had already taken a larger 11:;'°' than was wanted, he trusted that there was cs ecasio n Iv a . a . sol vote a latger sum of money than i:,ti'lltebre_utely necessary. The Brewers had en the greatest difficulties for some years past, which had Aleted those of the trade who were the most opulent and the most prudent ; and now that they were just emerging from those ddli. culties, they were to be made the objca of a 'lax which would inflid a most serious injury upon their trade, and which he wished could have been drawn from some other source. He should however take a n opportunity- in some future stage of the pro ceedings relative to this 'fax, of entering more into the detail of the subjeti. The Right Ho nourable Gentleman had stated the amount of the National Debt to be about 500,000,0001. It was a melancholy refiedion, that more than one half of that Debt had been incurred during the late on . happy War, in which not one object that had been stated at the commencement had been obtained. Peace had now taken place, and France was left possessed of more power than the most absurd of her partizans could have ventured to prediEt ; the House of Bourbon was not upon the Throne ; the House of Orange was deprived of its power ; and Switzerland was in a situation very different to that in which it was placed at the commencement -of the 'War ; whilst England had gained nothing, except the Islands of Ceylon and Trinidad. He Was glad to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman lay down maxims of moderation, and that Foreign Powers were no longer to be treated with inso lence or hauteur. If such a system of moderation was pursued, he hesitated not to believe that this Country possessed abundant resources. He hoped, however, the predictions of the Right Hon. Gen tleman would not prove equally fallacious with those of his Predecessor, who in the year 1792, when he opened his Budget, triumphed in the great resources of the Country, and calculated upon a continuance of Peace for fifteen years, when since that period a nine years War had' taken place, and in a great measure destroyed the resources of the Country. He trusted the calculations of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER) would be more truly fulfilled. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was not proposed to impose any Tax on the Stock of Beer on hand, but he saw no ground why the stock of Malt on hand should not be made an objet of taxation. The Hon. Gentleman had stated a material loss sustained by the Brewer's in the im portation of foreign Barley ; but it was impossible lie could say any thing upon the subject at present, upon a case so stated. The Hon. Gentleman had stated, that at the close of the War none of the ob_ jeCis of that War had beets attained. He denied the position.—They had attained the objects of the War, as they had griined all that they had not lost. It was the object cf those who had forced us into the War, to attack Monarchy ; but the House had given the strongest proof of its attachment to Mo narchy, by voting the payment of the debts of the Civil List. What greater proof could be given of the resources and confidence of the Country than the Loan which he had just submitted to the House.— With respect to the points brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman relative to the Tax upon Malt and Beer, there would be a future opportunity of discussing them ; but he trusted this Tax would not be considered as a Tax upon the Trade. Mr. PITT spoke nearly to the following pnr_ port ;—" Sir, it will not be necessary for me to trespass long upon the indulgence of the Commit tee, because there appears to be very little, and in. deed I hardly think it possible that there should be much, difference of opinion. But I wish to say a few words, in consequence of what has fallen from the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, though perhaps the Committee will agree with me in thinking, that what has been said respecting me, can hardly call for any animadversion on my part. The Hon. Gentleman has referred rather inacurately, in my opinion, to certain expressions which he suppases one to have used in 179 z. But the tendency of the language to which he aliudes was, an expression, not only of my confident reliance, but of my earnest hopes of the contiruance of Peace which we then enjoyed. It is certainly tree, Sir, that at that period there was not a man living in this king_ dom, who felt more his personal happiness en gaged in realizing that happy prosped which then opened itself to this Country, than I did— that prospect of the continued operation of our increasing wealth, our increasing commerce, our increasing resources, which had been the happy re sult of ten years of economy, of labour, of firm ness, and of wisdom, on the part of Parliament, in their endeavours to cultivate the Arts of Peace, to - augment the kevenue, and to ameliorate the con dition of the People of this Country, and which they hoped to follow. up with no other task but that of steadily reinforcing the Sinking Fund for the diminution of the Public Debt, and of taking off those Taxes which then pressed most heavi ly •upon the laborious part of the Community.— Have I then, Sir, any very serious, any very criminal charge to answer to, if with some de gree of fondness I did indulge the hope that those distractions which then desolated France, founded upon principles which I then thought, and which every man must now admit, were directly con traryto those on which our happiness and prosperity were grounded, contrary to that system on which our excellent Constitution was founded, and contrarpto the general sense of the People of this Country ? Can I, Sir, I say, have any very serious or crimi nal charge to answer to, if under such circumstances I did indulge a hope that -those blessings we then enjoyed might not be . interrupted ? This hope I was not singular in indulging ; it was a hope enter tained in common with me by metr who have some times been the objects of the obloquy, sometimes. of the reverence of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite to :ee, men who went beyond me in horror and de testation (if any men could go beyond me) of those principles which were then disseminated in France, but who certainly went beyond me in their opi nions of the measures by which those principles were to be resisted and defeated—l allude, Sir, to the late Mr. BURKE, and those who thought with him ; he thought that France would, in a political sense, become a blank in the Map of Europe ; that man, whose great and prophetic mind had enabled him to obtain a glimpse of those unexampled horrors and crimes which have since desolated France; he thought, that however dreadful those convulsions might be to herself, they would present to Foreign Countries nothing but weakness and imbecility,— j If, Sir, at that moment I did entertain the opinion which has been attributed to me, it is an error of which now, upon reflection, I have no occasion to repent, because it did not betray me into any disre gard of my duty. I cannot, however, but hope, that the Hon. Gentleman (in some moment of can dour, when he refers again to this subjed) will find in what he has now advanced against me as a charge, something like an answer to those repeated calm. nies which the Hon. Gentleman and his friends have been in the habit of pouring forth against me (with out being aware of it, no doubt), insinuating that I was insensible of the blessings of Peace, and anxious to involve this Country in a war with France. I certainly did not wish to trouble the Committee with these observations, but the Hon. Gentleman has driven me to it :—he has driven me to recall to the recollection of the Committee the task which was imposed upon me at that period, to change from that system which I wished to pursue, and to abandon those prospefts .which I hoped to realize, by entering into a War with France, a task by which I was. compelled, instead of being the humble, but willing instrument for promoting the beneficent views of His Majesty and of Parlia ment,• for promoting the happiness and prosperity Of the People; which compelled me, I say, to aban don that system, to forego those hopes, and to use those resources ,which were meant to augment the advantages, and secure the blessings of Peace, for the purpose of maintaining our independence, of preserving our existence, of defending our honour, and of meeting with, and contending against the most gigantic system . of aggression that ever threatened the overthrow of civilized society, and the desolation of the world ; and which was more particularly directed against this Country, its charader and Constitution, as its peculiar viCtim.. There Were many who at that time were sanguine enough to hope, that from the violence of the con , vulsion, its duration would be but short. My hopes are, I confess, seldom among the least san guine ; but I trust that I never enter upon any great work, trusting alone to my own hopes. But from the beginning, I did state that whatever might be the encouraging ground of hope which we possessed, hopes which have been disappointed by, events contrary to all human probability, and con , tradidory to every rational system of chancel did, I say,- distindly state to the House, that it was a contest on which we ought not to enter with.. out being fully convinced that we had no choice left, without feeling, as my Right lion. Friend has truly expressed it, that it was a contest in which we should gain all that we could preserve.—That there were moments during the contest, in which'we did hope for more—that there were moments in which we hoped to obtain, within the bounds of modera tion, indemnification, and additional security, I am ready to confess, and these I contend were fit ob jects to be aimed ate—But if we obtained Peace, with our Constitution entire—if it was left to us here to exercise those honourable privileges which we are now exercising—if it was left to us to dis cuss, as we are now doing, the extent of the re sources, and to review the elieds of the energy and firmness of a great and powerful People—if we had obtained this, we should have satisfied the mo_ tives which induced us to engage in this contest. — Let me ask, after all that has passed this day, whether the Heriourable Gentleman has any rea son triumphantly te exclaim, that this day ha s seen the subversion of my solid System of nance, as he calls it ? It does so happen, that after many prophesies of the Hon. Gentleman and his Friends, of the ruin of the Country ; nay, after denunciations of actual ruin, when we were stared ' to be so irretrievably ruined as to justify the Hon. Gentleman and his Friends in their opinion in seceding from their Parliamentary duty ;- at a time when many collateral and unfortunate events had added to the calamities of the War, at a time when there was a stoppage of the money payments at the Bank, and when there appeared symptoms in the British Navy inconsistent with the principles and with the feelings which actuate hearts of British Seamen—at that time it was, that a pro position was made to provide a large part of the Supplies within the year. It was at that period, Sir, when many of the great Patriots of this Coun try left this House, because their efforts could not save their Country ; and if they suffered any occa sional call to bring them back to their duty, it was only to obstruct the effeds of that solid System of 'Finance, but who considered the ruin of the Coun try as so irretrievable that they could not hold forth their hands to save it : it was, I say, Sir, at that period that I proposed this Plan of Finance, and which, from the good sense, the zeal, and ge nuine charader of the Nation, and the firtneess of Parliament, was adopted.—Undouhtedly, Sir, the produce of that Tax has proved to be inferior to that which, upon every ground of calculation I had in my power,. I .was inclined to hope; but I have no reason to believe that that deficiency rests so much upon any great mistake in the calculations I then made, as upon the difficulty of enforcing a principle which no man has yet by any solid argument dis puted. From these circumstances, undoubtedly the benefits of this plan were considerably diminished, but does not this very circumstance prove still stronger the excellence of the principle itself ? Do we not remember the fears and despondency of the Gentlemen on the other side of the House, their wish to impress those fears upon the minds of those who listened to them, and to make the calamities which threatened the Country even greater than they were ? But let me ask, even in the eye of sober refledion, were not these difficulties con.. siderable ? when the Stocks were, I believe, un der 47—when the amount of the Loans were so great, in consequence of the expence which we were obliged to support,. arising from the cir cumstances or the times, and the nature of the Contest we were forced to maintain—when the hearts of many men sunk within them, though their wishes, their hopes, and their principles remained entire and sound ; if at that moment no groan had escaped but for public,distress, the public difficul ties would not have been so great as they were.— Since that time we have sustained four years of War, with the necessity of extending our operations, with our enemies multiplied, and with new objets of in ternal interest, colluded with our very existence, with which we were bound to contend. Irk that ' very er;01 however, insteal of real;tztng those desponding pi's.ied.;ons of tlee. Hon, Gest herein and his Friends, we hsve gene on 'with, sour, both in our i'itu and our Commet cc, not withstanding the great and lamentable ref ore up on the People—a pressure, however, intieh more augmented by the uefavourahle nature of the sea. :lens, than it was by political causes. Notwith standing all these circumsraoccs, I say, we have gone on for the last four years, increasing in wealth and prosperity throughout all the differeet classes of individuals that compose the Communite.— We come now, Sir, to the Peace, the discus.. sions respeding which have been inevitably pro_ traded to suet a length as to render Lhe eh;. peaces of this year equal to a year of War, and lo this first year of Peace, at the end of nine years of a War unexampled in its nature and esecor, we make a Loan for .25,03°,0c:0h at the very same price of Stocks at which, in the first year of the War in 1793, with all the accumulating resoerees of ten years of Peace, we made a Loan for only Four Millions. I think, therefore, the Hoe. Gentleman might have chosen some other day td call upon me to do penance, and to admit the destruction of that solid System of Finance.—l beg pardon of the Corn. mittee—l could not suppress my personal feelings upon this occasion; but from the part I have taken in public events, I trust they are also public feel_ ! ings, in which every friend to his Country, in' and out of this House, will participate with me. [Here Mr. GREY, supposing Mr. PI TT had sae down, rose to address the Committee.]—" Str, I do not wonder, after what I have stated, that the Hon. Gentleman thinks I have said enough, and ought to sit down." Mr. PITT then said, he would trouble the Corn.. mittee with but a few words more, in answer to some other parts of the Honourable Gentleman's speech, particularly upon that article in the Ways and Means which had called up the Honourable Gentleman, viz. the Tax upon Beer. That Ho nourable Gentleman, as well as every body else, was entitled to peculiar favour and attention from the Committee, when . he was arguing in favour of the interests of any set of individuals ; but it did appear to him that the Hon. Gentleman was mis. taken in the ground upon which he rested his ap peal to the Committee. If this proposed Tax npon Beer was in its nature bad, it ought to be given ep; but ought certainly not he made up by a fax upon Malt, which could not relieve the Brewers, except by extinguishing the Private Breweries; and thereby giving to the Public Brewers a monopoly of the frade. The Hon. Gentleman supposed he was making a strong appeal to the Committee when he stated the different prices of Malt indifferent teats; but he had omitted to state how many barrels of beer might be made from a bushel of malt. If his recolleCtion was right upon this subject, a bu,hel would make three barrels and a quarter, or three and a half, and even sometimes three and three fourths p but in the latter case, he believed, not much to the benefit of those ‘vho drink ir. At the period when the Brewers raised their prices, he be_ lieved they were justified in so doing ; but he thought, that previous to that period their profits were such as ought to have prevented them from he ill in haste to complain, if sometimes their profits sunk below the common rate of mercantile gain ; and certainly when the price of Corn tele they must have been reimbursed in a•considerabie de_ gree for their previous loss. He. wished not to be supposed to bring any eheirge against the persons in that trade ; they were certainly a • most respedable body of men ; nor was he anxi ous to enter into this discussion ; but he thought it a duty he owed to the Public, to state thus math : and if there was really any thing in the statement of his Right Hon. Friend, about which he entertained a doubt, it was, that he had gone too far in miti gating the Tax in favour of the Brewers. He hoped the subject would be brought to a full discussion : he wished that the scale should preponderate ie fie. your of the Brewer, but sit the same t tine he did not wish to transfer into the pockets of individua:s any considerable portion of that which was available for public purposes. He would not at present trouble the Committee any ledger, exsept with a very few words upon one point, :find that was, what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend respoeSting the modification cf the Sinking . Fund. 'ilicre was no man who could look with more jealousy than he did, npon any thing that appeared like a deviazion from the System upon which that Fund was esteblished. When the Plan of his Right Hon. Friend came to be examined, if it was found to break in npon the final effets and substantial merits of the System of the Sinking Fund, it would be mach better at once to provide 9oosoool. in Taxes, than to suffer a de viation from that System, to the operation of which, next to the firmness of Parliament and the Country, he really believed we owed the situation in which we now stood. He however thought it right to say, that from the best consideNuion he could give the subjeel, he thought the plan now proposed was not only perfedly consistent with the System on which the Sinking Fund was established, but would prove a great reinforcement to that Fund. The proposal seemed to him to be attended with no inconvenience, but offered an additional aid to the Sinking Fund; which, after reede:ing all the direct benefits which the Public had derived from it during sixteen years, now presented the means of deriving out of it a cotta teed aid by which a great public burthen would be saved. It was at once the fruit and the test of the Resources and the perseverance of the Country. _ _ Mr. BURDON made, a few observations re lative to the Shipping Interest, which he, thought would be materially injured by the Duty proposed by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER upOn Tonnage, and Exports and Imports. He thought no inference could he drawn in thE case from the pro. duce of the Convoy Tax, at a period when France and Holland were unable to •enter into competition with us. He hoped, however, that time wonld be given for all the parties interested in this Tax to make those statements and representations to the House which the,subjed required, in order that it might be fairly discussed. The C HAAVC.ELLUR of the EXCHEQUER said, be did not' mean' to submit any Resolution to the Committee that night, as the documents relative to it would not be ready till We:lnesday. I.t was