The Sun. — London, England, 1807-01-17 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF PEERS, FRIDAY, JANUARY 16. The Duke of Richmond, -the-Earl ofDartmouth,. tlie Bishop 'of Ely, and Lord Carteret, took the Oaths and their Seats. The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the Exchequer Bills Bill, and:a Naturalization Bill. The Commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, Lord Walsingham, and, Lord Auckland. • In the Appeal " Page and .others v. Hamilton and others,", the Solicitor General. was heard in reply. ' = Further . conilderation appointed for Thursday sen .. right. Oralham; InspeEtor ,of . Convias, presented the' Btate Of - the Hulks in the River, and at Portsnlotith;.m;hiSwas ordered to lie on the table.. Adjourned till Tuesday. ROUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY, JAN. 16: Tpe ,SPEAKER acquainted the House that the ,Royal „Assent had I beenziven . to the Exchequer Bills Bill. He had also to inform the House, that be had receive - Aron) the Deputy Clerk of the Crown, in Ireland, a letter containing an . account of Barri ..sters-qualifi,edic Commissioners serve as Cossioners under - the new . Act for. Regulating Controverted Eledions therein.. He had further' to acquaint the House, that Williarrilaker, who had petitioned against the 'Return - for' the Borough of New&stre-under-the -Line,' had not entered' into the recognizances te .quired by the 28th of his present Majesty, and , that Art - consequence of this Default, the Order of the Day -for taking such Petition into consideration should be discharged, and was , discharged accordingly. Sir Edward John Brown not having entered into the same, the Order of the Day for hearing the County of Mayo Petition was discharged.—Upon the ground s pf. a similar default, on the part of Sir Charles Saxton and Henry Bouverie, the Order of the Day . for hearing the Malmsbury Petition was discharged. The Order of the Day for hearing the Petition corn— 'plaining' of an undue Return for the Borough of Hythe, was also discharged, the Petitioners, Thomas Stacey and others, not . havingentered into the ne "cessary recognizances. . • • The London Dock Company Bill, far enabling the Company to purchase certain Water-works, was read a second time. • • General WALPOLE gave notice, that he would, on Wednesday. next, move that the Londonderry Peti tion be heard upon a day subsequent to that already -fixed upon, Lord CASTLEREAGH moved,. that the Abstra& of : the -Estimates of Army Service for the year 1807, • _presented on,the 14th by the Secretaty at War, -be Ftrinted.—Ordered. . Mr. T. Gazist - vrt,LETMoved, that .the Estimates of the' Debt, of his Majesty's Royal Navy, since 30th September, 1806, be laid before the Frouse.—Or . • ' • Mr. T. GaErstviLLS gave notice, that in the Corn -inittee of Supply for Friday next, he would move for lArote of 'lo,ooo' seamen additiOnal to the 120,000 - air,eady voted. -• • • - Sir J. NEWPORT brought up the Bill for Abolish— ing. certain Offices in .Ireland.—Read a first tinio, .and ordered to be read a second time on Friday. Upon the Motion of. Sir J. NEWPORT, the House, . went into a Committee on the Corn Intercourse.A4 ; when it was, resolved, that it was the opitsion of that Committee, that certain provisions made in an Ad of last. Session of Parliament for the better regu lating the Corn - Intercourse related to the producevf the two Countries only. Lord PORCHESTER asked whether the Hon. Ba- toner meant that this declaration of the meaning of „. the A& should ad as any modification of the Malt Trade ? Sir J. NEWPORT was free to state, that nothing was farther from his intention than any interference with the Malt Trade ; that the word Malt had crept - into the.preamble.of the former A&, but was not to be found in the enaaling clauses. . Leave was given to bring in a Bill pursnant-to the . Resolutions of the Committee, , Upon the House resuming, Lord HoWicit ex pressed a wish that an Hon. General (Porter) would fix his Motion for some day subsequent to Wednes- day, as, upon' that day the Army .Estirnates, would be momed,-.-a.question that might give . fise,,to an important discussion. General P.ORTiiConidera - 11iS Motion portance :inferior to nothing that could occtipi the attention of that House. He was willing, however, to accede to the Nyishes of Ills Noble Friend, and therefore would postpone it, till Friday. Coloriel CATI/THORNE submitted to the House, whether it was. fair, after the. delays he had uni formly obje&ed to,. 'and that had been too often re , peated, that the 'House: shonld be: kept in longer ' suspense upon any pretence whatever; he could.not help sayinu.,Ahat he thought the Honourable Mem ber pledged to bring forward his Motion on Wed nesday next': , Lord HOIVI:CK said, that lie could not be brotight to think 'that any individual consideration, however interesting, could compare in public irn-• pOrtance with a great pnblie'exigeney. 7 —The Army Estimates were to be voted upon Wednesday,' and it was propoSed to consider the other busin6ss upon the following Friday. Surely in such circumstances no Gentleitan:could seriously complain of .suspense for two days only,---Ordered for Friday next.: • ORDER OF COUNCIL. Mr. PERCIVAL rose and said, that . :I.vhen he gave his notice yesterday of moving that his Majesty be requested to submit to that House the Order of Council of the 7th of January, he did not anticipate the slightest opposition on the part Of his Maje Sty's Ministers. A Noble Lord, however, 'opposite to him (Lord Howick) had since, with that candour which became him, and for which he gave him his un feigned thanks, intimated to him that.the motion he Was about to make would have the misfortune of his Lordship's opposition. :However formidable such an opposition most be to' him; he would not suffer himself to be alarmed by the threat until, he bad learned upon what that opposition would be ground ed. Would it be rested upon that favourite principle of Ministers,the imprudence of too public a disclosure, and the prerogative of his Majesty to reserve to the .grout ..of f Qbjeainn, be,sonld only sayi that what had'appeareil in tfe publiC oazette, and night therefore be prescimedgo be, -notorious throughout the coup not acquit t any very dangeaJus addition of notoriety, were it even ordered to be laid before that House. But, if the ground of the Noble Lord's objeEtion (as he rather suspe&ed) to the pro -(lu6tioti of the Paper, was 'founded upon - a'prior 6bjeCtion• to the proceeding, expected to be insti tuted upon, the contents of thiS Paper, in that case he must say, that he thought it.lair to question the justice' of. opposing - any'Motion whatever because it was possible that that Motion might be.produive of another in itself only -objeelionable. If, however, -this was the substance of the Noble Lord's objection, the question then before the HoUse stood thus-r-whe tiler the House would oppoSefthe produCtion.of 'a most important Paper, merely because, the Noble Lord thought that there might be instituted upon it,a .proceeding to which his Lordship would feel it neces sary to give every opposition. He should be ,perfeetly satisfied to let it stand thus, and leave it to the Can dour of the House to decide 'upon it, were it not that an obje&ion upon 'this ground hurries' him prematurely into thedefence of his ulterior Motion and the simple question of the' produation of this Paper is lost in the more cOMplicated one'of the ex pediency of the proceeding to be founded upon that Paper. If he was thus to be, called upon for the de fence of: a motion which was to. be the business of another day, he should feel it as due to the great im portance of the question itself, to that House, and, indeed, to the.necessity of-every necessary informa tion upon :his part,' to defer st i tch. a discussion to a more distant day : before, however, he could so de .termine,:; he begged' that the Noble Lord 'would es.- plicitlystate the specific objection he had to the prO duCtion of the •-Paper; in the preseot instance the natureof his Lordship's objeation would' determine him as to the propriety of pressing his present mo tion, or bringing the business with which it was connected before 'that House on a• future day, that that House and himself might have every due ad vantage preparatory to the discussion of a question of such vital importance to the 'Coannerciginterests Of the Empire. - Lord HOWICK said, that when the intention- of the Right Hon. Gentleman of moving for the produc tion of this'Paper was intimated to him, he had stated his ,obje6tiOn; and.•that,in this respeCt he hoped that •not eventhe Right ion. Gentleman himself would' - be found willing ,to charge him with any deficiency in fairness and candour. .These objections were, however, in one instance, entirely misunderstood. He had never said that he would object to thiS Motion on the principle of its giving rise to public . disclosure Of the proceedings of the Cabinet that it might be pru diem to Conceal, because he was aware, that in the "present ease, the Prodnaion. of it to that House cculd.addtrery'little .fo its. notoriety; and certainly nothing to its authenticity i• beSides, it;was entirely agr-eable •to Parliamentary. usage to move for the produaian of important documents—an usage, how ever, Uniformly confirledsto two distina. cases ; one wherethe (iocuinent moved for bore directly upon Certain • busieess ; then pending in „Parliament,. and served to clear up obscurities .and obviate difficulties therewith.' connected ; and the other:where an Ab straft Paper Tas.moved for, for the' purpose of insti tuting al)roceeding thereon. To the latter case :was the motion noticed,( yesterday reducible -; and as be longing to such aclass of motions for the production • Of Papers, he:could not agree td•the production of this Paper, unless he approved of-"the proceeding to. be founded opon it. Now,: from:what he could col. le& of the nature of this proceeding, he had reason to believe it would prove altogether unprecedented, and.(if he was not much mistaken) would be , found liable to objections of the most insurmountable na ture. , :If he might be permitted to . suggest to the . Right Hon. Centlernan that.course which to hitn•ap-T peared preferable, he would advise him to defer his motion (as it involved in it the question of the propri ety of the proceeding to be grounded upon that P aper) to such .4: timeas the acknowledged importance' Of the subject so- iniperiouslY . deManded. ' Mr.PEßClVAL'admitted the justice of the hie Lord's claims to candour in general, and. thank ed. him- for the frankness which charaaterised his communication in this business.. He now saw from what had fallen from the Noble Lord, that it would be useless for him then to persist in his Motion for the produCtion of the Paper. - He could not, how ever,•i) el p saying, ,that he 'thooght the Noble Lord's method of opposing 'die 'production of Papers as un pretedented as'any proceeding could he that Might be founded Upon those" Papers. '• ; lord ROWICK.said, that it would be fo:' the s Honsetodetermine that question, and that he'would not follow, the Right Hon. Gentleman's example•O closely as -to take upon.. him to decide whether his opposition to an unsupported Motion, or the Gen , : tleman's intendeleXtraordinary proceeding - , 'Was the' most unprecedented ; 'he wished to ,know whether the Gentlernah 'Would think- it prudent to -let the, 'Hotise have an outline of the 'proceedings to be 'grounded upon this Paper?,,,' • , ..• - • Mr, PERCH/7,11, was Most . anxious that the House should have the fullest information upon a Subject,:ef so much imp,ortan.ce. 'I object of his inquiry 'should be as to the object of the Order of Council- ' s of the. 7th' instant---Whether it could* . be Maintained' that that Ord'er 7 was . sufficiently Compre . hensive and effective . is retaliation ? 'Whether 'in wisdom, and in sound policy, it was calculated,tO _ obviate. the diffiCulties, and -repel the dancrers, tq Which our cuinnlerce was subjected by the b•;7)ld,,del cisive and vigorous proceedings of the enemy ? Whether; in a word, it went to do that which it professed to do ? and if in, all these 'respects it was found. entirely to fail, -if it was found to be timid and wavering- in its consultation, and indeterminate and inefleetual in its operation, he shouidfeel it his duty to call upon that House to interpuse its wisdem to supply this defeat, 'to give its weaknesS strength, And . its:ambiguity a meaning. He would give his Motion the full benefit of the notice which he should have thought necessary to the proceeding he was to ground upon that Motion, had it been agreed to:— Notice fixed for Thursday sesnnight. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. JOIIIVSPONE moved, that the Estimates of theArMy ServiCeS' for - the year 1.807 be printed He said that he could not reconcile it to the, duty he owed his Constituents and the empire if he voted away indifferently such extraordinary sums, without knowing in what manner they were particularly to I-- - 1 :---- -I -- -I C.. reritired. His„public dit,,,sbould at al lip - ,tel . b e . ii . ittelitri a most..; one ; .bUt hi th Jai - dent crisfs.;:.-calling so rOudly for pr4lcal econ ly, this duty, was indeed an important on,*. It mig 'be ob . . ithed, that fr - was not usual to-print the Estimates, but the Abstrads ; he could only say, that certainly it was hot unprecedented,- as they had been print ed within - the - last two years ; besides that; in the .present instan, the grants of money comprised in them so much Extraordinaries,lhat it was extreinely difficult, if not impossible, to judge of them, ex -cept in detail, and this'waS in itself a reason sutE.- .1 cient to ,beir him out in his present Motion. The . Hon. Member, in concluding, took occasion to al lude again to what he thought an imprudent negli genc'e on the part of . the Board Of Ordnance relative to the transmission of powder froth thiS Country to the Island ofCeylon. Tile SECRETARY at IVIR hoped that the Hon. Gentleman wound. content himself ,with what the, -House thought sufficient upon th e l ast y ear , t h at o f ptinting the Abstrad ; this,: he should conceive, would be adequate for' the purposes of all necessary information, as the , Estimates would be left upon'., the table, to which the Members could at all times refer; he could not : see the use of printidg them; but it was obvious.that it would certainly be produc tive of trouble, delay, and expence; besides,. there: might be, other objeations of which he was not int mediately aWare. A Noble Lord upon the other • side(LordCaStlereagh) had admitted, upon . a former night, .the imprepriety•of disclosing so authentically to the Enemy inforManon that it-might be more ex pedient ta keep from:them: . . --: . . - Mr. Cdaft . AFT felt niseihi f. 'called upon .to say , a few words in answer to the very strong attack made by the Hon. Mover upon :the . Board with which he had 'the honour to .be conne&ed. With reVe4 to the Island of Ceylon, he had to state that to com pliance with the requisition of the Commanding Oth cer there, a large, equipment of stores and equipage, together With a•certainsupply of pawder,; was sent}' out. It was further required, that the same supply of powder be continued annually. - This, however, was ,not - complied with, as .for the future measuresi. will be taken to supply the Island with powder from the East Indies. He appealed to the House, if .it • would haVe been desirable in the Board to have re- , je&ed this requisition ' for powder, when wtlit mained in the Island w as i nca pable of service, and at a time too that would have risqued ; the security of the Island, As to the Hon. Gentleman's .Mo tion, he should not now oppose it, as he, himself had been instrumental in. carrying. a similar .one into die& two years, back. - • • • Mr. SPURGES BOURNE thought it impossible 1 for each Member to have recourse to all the Pa pers before the Army Estimates were submitted to that House, unless they were printed—as, to the ob jeCtion a its giving to the Enemy an authentic ac count of our forces, lie thought that this.objeelion applied with greaterfowe to the printing of the Ab , strati, 'and that had been ordered' by the House with out a single objetaion ; besid,es, the. : Estimates, had before beep printed, and he did not -remember any alarming consequences to have 'arisen from printing of them, 'nor did he remember that . .atiy Suds was then apprehended by Gentlemen- npon..the other side, though now change of side had produced in them change of sentiment, as te,.either wirtting or producing Papers. 4rd'I'EMPLE thought - it an indireCt attempt to put off ihe.Debateupon' the Army Estimates. Mr. ROSE aroued , , that as the Papers in:question • ta might be printed in -two days, such trifling delay, Could- not interfere' Wit s li the time tixedior consider ing the Arinv Estiniatd!i: Lord.HOllziCk . said, that, in . answer to what had fallen from the 'other side, he felt oimself'pre pared to resist any taunts : that should be levelled-at the situation he had slie,honotn .to - O, or the prin ciples it should ever be' his pride' to emouse ; nor was he actin g. inconsistently with 'itich:prineVes,: when he opposed a measure which he- trad funurlY: supported, becauSe that nteas-ure "was no longZr accompanied' with those circumstances had claimed - and:, received his orsginai support.—' When two : years ago 'he - voted for the' print „.. ing of 'the . - '4l.rrny -Estimates, new military plans of great and ' extensive' importance •were suggested to the attention of that House,. 'and called for its most serious ; 'as a prOof, that peculiar. cirCunistanCes are cOenSidered necessary to warrant a Motion of, this kind, last year none such occurred, and no Estimates were printed..,. The House too was in full possession of every. necessary informa tion, .and even if it was not,.'painting the Estimates within verY, 'limited" a time would but, inade-' quately serve to 'answer such a pui pose. Mr. PERClKAL,cow , ptulatecl. the House and the Country that the LOrd 'had is this case, as : in many others', acted upon very ditfeient,principles , from what he did on the Opposition side of the . - House;• 'He was' extremely glad to find it so, and it would aff6rd," great, satisfaction.. to the Coun `try. r.ehe tion4n.rable' Geptleinan oven th e wa y (Cslcraft) had at least aaed, consistently in: this bu siness, by following the precedent which he himself had furnished two years ago. • This was a 'precedent of their own. Now ,what ryas .the precedent against printing the Estimates? Why, that theywere not' printed last year. But was that a precedent of his (Mr. Percival) .and his friends.? No. An Hon, General, not now in the House, had, moved fol. the printing of the Estimates t 'p.m did not Succeed; —But the Noble Lord saidi,that ,there were new measures proposed the yeavehefore last, on which the. Estimates might 'bear materhillY. And were there not new measures,..tilen tiro proposed ? Ana was not 'this statedfas. a ground for the printing of the Estirliateo' 'But they had then refused to act cede to this, andtheir own precedent of last.year novi set up as a reason for refusing to allow the ' printing Of the'Etimptes at this time.-11 it were understood that the printing of these Papers.could give any information of importance to the enemy, was, not a man in the House 'who would fora moment think of acceding to the I,4lotion. The Riglit Hon. Gentleman on the other side (the Secretary. 'At War),. When it *as pot to biro, said, that he did not believe the Abstraa would convey .as much informa tion to the enemy as the details. But if the details would convey more information to the enemy, the Rt. Hon-Gentleman would, no doubt,from his means of information, and the obligation upon him to attend minutely to this business, have been fully acquaint ed with the subject. The inference was, therefore, that the Abstract would afford no less • information objeelion to the Motion was that which was dirt.- _ Out by one Noble Lord (Temple) and taken up another (Howick). This was the delay which wot be occasioned in case it was agreed to, in the discus-- -sion of the Estimates. Now, it was possible that the Papers could not be printed before Tuesday or Wed nesday. The discussion then must be delayed till Thursday or Friday. But if the objeet was impor tant in itself, could the delay of two day be urged as an objection ? A Noble Lord (Temple) said,.tfv4 it was delay that was the'real object in this Motion.'.:, and that it would ' have .'been 'More manly. to have: avowed the objeet at once, than to have endeao, - voUred .to come at it in this indire& way, Now, the objeet had really been to delay the discussion, 'could any man believe that it would have been worth while to have secured a delay of two days, which was the utmost which could result from this Mo tion ? If, indeed, there was any point of special importance, to which it might be proper to call the particular attention of the House, and if on diat account a fuller attendance should be desira6lo 4 undoubtedly they would then have moved for if delay ; but it would . be a delay for a . fortnight, ok length of time that,might answer the purpose. But nothing could be gained by a delay of two days. lie could scarcely believe that the Noble,Lords were se-. rious when.they objeCted on such i gronnds as thee, and therefore he supposed the motion would ‘villing ly be agreed to. • Lord 1101PIcK would scarely have 'thought it necessary to say any more upon this subject, had -it not, been for one -or two points in the 'Learned Gentleman's speech,, which he could not p . as . S.over without saying a few words _by way - of explanation. The Learned Gentleman .had said that he (Howick) had abandoned the principles:;6ii which he had acted' while-on the other side of the House. He ought to have known that.a different line of condaa, under 'ditferent circumstance s , did not necessarily` imply a change of principle. He challenged the Learned Gentleman to shew that he on this or any other occa sion had manifested theleast inclination to change hit principles. 'What iie had stated.was, that he appre hended the cases were different, and th at t h ere f ore A different line :of concin& was prone*. , lie would do his ‘ctu - ty, and from that he would certainly not be deterred by any taunts thrown out by the Gentlemen on the other side. In the case of the year before last, there was a necessity for having, the Papers printed, 'because the Estimates bore materially upaq points which it was (Vaned essential to discuss Par ticularly. In the instance pf the last year, no such ground existed, and, in filet, the 'Estimates were voted before the motion for printin g was made, if he recolleoted right. If he had adopted a different line of conduct, - therefore, it was not from an•alteration of principles, abut from an alteration of ciro , un• stances. • - Mr. PERCIVAL observed, that if he had aattiai. alterationly adverted toa changeole Lord's of principles, line princip of insteadcles,onctu oci)! bGaa would cheerfully submit to' that corredion. But if the Noble Lord'had opposed the Motion, with tbo : qualification of his opposition which he now stated,; in that case, he (Mr. Percival) could only say, thiir he had not rightly understood him. . Mr. NONTdGUE supported the Motion. large 'expensive establishmer:t,sabwleertehe.Hceosusrsaer,y2ooo observed, and if in such cases obje&ions `were td. Motions which went to easily -to examine. --the Vlb 1 ;( 7 Expeuditure.J. pi'ecedent'Wotild be' foraited, which Watild render it impossible for the -. lVletnbers 'of the House to do their duty by their Constituents. The facility, there fore, which would be afforded to them in doing their duty: - would more than counter-Ilalgncer ant expence that might be incurred by printing these pers. The expence of printing skit: Papers might `well be saved by eti4notny in inany'other re spe Cie• For instance, if the powder sent to Ceylon from th Coutitiy bad been purchased al Madras,, we woa d have had a' savina - Which hate far beyond any expence thatcould inp l irred by printing tho Estiiiiites now. befofe the House. He saw no goal around ot objeaion - to the Motion. ; 7 Mr: BIDDULFH thought it incurribent upal him to say a few ~words., as be had, seconded Motion. He considered economy-in the•public ex' penditure 'of so 'much importance, that he w ould Ittioavaen,y thing ,been the last 11,an haVe given hisconntenan * that woidd be attended with expense, had he notibeen satisfied th at this was :one of those cases where the-,saving of a • few pounds might lead to .the loss of many-thriusaUds,' It, v.as absolutely necessary that every i faeilityl should be allowed 1 0 Geßlemeti in _inquiring intothe'Publi&Expendittire• This, at the present moment, was the most importo, ant of duties. He hims,elf also 'wished to say some.- on the subjeta of these Estimates, but it wall Utterly impossible for him to make himself complete" ly master of the unless he was allowed to take the Papers home with him. But this he. could not (-1 0 unless they were printed, for in their present state they must lie on the table till th e y came to - b e dim Cussed. aeicould not do his duty with,satiSfaoi4)* o -himself, therefore, unless. the ! , Papers 'were piiioteii , by which means he could have' a-:copy him. This was the reason why he had sei..iiiiiol,ltll o Motion. As to the question of the Po.kt' , 7der-iontio Ceylon, he thought the Board of Ordnance!coula not possibly have_iefused, under such a requ'isitipo- But he lipped that in future the Supply wpnif bC sent from It the Board chose to 2 iiiqulreirit° the matter ) ,they, would,,get infdtmation.in. London' that the Indian Powder was not only not worse Our's,' but 'that it'WaS even better. :• • Mr. CALCRAFT observed that an Honourably Gentleman over the way ,(Mr.. Montague), seem?ta to suppose that it,waS alWays to be the system t o send out powder to Ceylon from this Country, who' be; (Mr. ,Caleraft) had eXpressly stated that it isOl s intended in future to send it from India . . MONE4GUE stated that that-very possibli , might have" lx-en systeiu; had it not,been for tb di discussions that had arienupon the . Mr. '''.ziit'SlTT.7l:2?7' observed, that When GO; ► tlemeu proposed a delay of two ur three days, the/ did not seem to understand the course of the Trey sury. A million of money would be due on Fridal d next, and-it was necessary to have the Vote pass' before that time. . Mr. NJ T 117 E N,_ said, that if any itiforrnaii ° L hijutrious to the Country could be conve y e d to en ! .:my by printing these Pa:,;rs, he would 1 .0* ,! opposed the Motion. But the printing of the a l ', dance Estimates had . led him to b e li e v e that , 1;-. • rhieirriar cnrt r•rml,l