The Sun. — London, England, 1802-11-25 00:00:00

tar e and his Capita! were occupied by a Prussian g ar rison, and afterwards a part of his possessions in Hanover given away, as an Indemnity to the House of Orange. It had been said, that our Honou r had been saved ; but he would ask if there . was any G entleman who would lay his hand upon s breast, and sincer e ly d ec l are , t h at h e t h ought our Honou r had been consulted when, in the midst of the Negotiations for Peace carrying on by us at Amiens, and during a suspension of hostilities, Bonaparte had not scrupled, without ,thinking it , worth his while to say a word about it to us, to annex the Italian Republic to his dominions Re sPeding the co n d u ct a d opte d towar d s Switzer land, it was not denied, though not openly avowed, that a remonstrance had been sent against it by our 10overnment. It certainly had a right to use that interfei:ence, in consequence of the most foul and un provoked aggression that perhaps ever was committed On the independence of any nation. But if that re monstrance was really made, as he believed it to he, he must condemn the mode, as it should have been rnade before. He did not know positively that any nfficial communication had been made of it to our Government, but unless it was formally, and . from Swi ss t h e authority denied, he would not believ e t h at t h e them se l ves would have negled e d to communi cate it at' an early period, to the Government fro ton which, of all others, they were likely to ob. an Y Prompt assistance or proteClion. • There c d e u r a t a i n ei l Y ou vv r a a s s a ai d rs ei . d of mismanagement in the con_ remon strance To give effed to any remon and readye should have been armed at that time, .1 but to Come forward should occasion call for 1 , but instead of that, we suffered Germany to be enfeebled and overturned, .rid co. and then, when assistance operation fro m t h a t quarter must be quite hopeless, we Carrie, unprepared with any means, to T lll°ns trate in favour of Switzerland, already in the power of our proud Rival. Surely prudence should have dilated, that before the last hand was Put t ° the Tre at y o f A m i ens , we s h o Uld h ave f oun d 'l9'llo method of ascertaining what were the ultimate l a w s of France with resped to the Continent, and et Forei gn C ountr i es . B ut , f or any th i ng sti lbn.lated there. to guard again st i t , F rance may h e at s 4 , t nnasent, by virtue of some Convention with st l l 34ll h i n possession of Peru and Mexico, as well as w e was of other valuable places. However, nothing , to , a , to . be wond ere d at in t h e condo& of a P ower o "eh, even p en di ng t h e N egot i at i ons at Am i ens, aye strong and unequ i vocal mar k s o f i ts dupl i c i ty vand insincerity. Without the slightest regard to s, France, by indired means, came, during that err period, into the posses s i on of t h e Italian Ike. P u blic, Louisi ana , an d the Island of Elba; add by 4 t rick Upon the Turkish Ambassador at Paris, it contrived to interfere in the subjed of the Evacua tion of Egypt. He believed there was not a man xjho voted for the Peace who did nor at the time not it merely as an exper i ment ; an d h e cou ld conceive that many of them would have been i nduced to have given t h at , if t h ey kn e w a t the tine th at we were to be kept unarmed, arid unable to aproted ou rselves. F rom w h at h a d hitherto a p. pj t re . d, th ere was no reason to doubt of the designs the French Govern ment ; they were openly and p StateicitlY Dorn proclaimed, not indeed by any regular be sent ments, but b y t h ose N ewspapers k nown to official and w hi ch would not have, in the pre state of the French Press, been permitted to a t F i Pear, if the declarations had not . the sanction of e , Government to proted them. Perhaps these ruulications may be disavowed, but by whom T cQu id they be disavowed ? Not by the Edi tr' for that would be of no consequence ; not by le French Minister, for he did not profess to have w e . them. They might, indeed, have b een tritserted b y m i sta k e, or inadvertence, had there i no more th an one o f t h em ; b ut t h ey came out ') a reg u l ar series, under the appearance of official a 4 thori t Y. [He then read an extra& from the Mo. ! lieu ' , in whi c h t h e pos i t i on o f F rance was de.. ribed encircled on the south, east and north by the I l ie ndlY Stat es of Spain, the Italian Republic, t h e „._Na of PaussiA, - Holland, &c.,) Such did i t de rribe the situation of France every where, not only ° Y friends, but dependants, or rather subjeds ; but I.4v.hat was most remarkable, he said, was, the ad.. 4ltional observation, that "all these achantages Q ` been carlsolidated by the Treaties of Amiens 3;41 LAneville." Here then he would- make his , v a nds and seriously ask Gentlemen whether they have voted for the Treaty if they had z ;n warned that in so doing they were giving con.. ti I dation to this magnificent and formidable posi :n Unde r ' a ll t hi s, the consolat i on offered us Th a i s in deed of a most s i ngu l ar nature. I t was said teirt the pres ent stat i on of t h e Fi rst C onsul h i m _ 1)14111'11st necessarily make him a f r iend to esta _ e , ed Government, vet h ow did t hi s sort o f t ari st ! l ation op erate on t h ose w h o were thoroughly ti oo vl nced that his leading objed was the destruc 41ann_ °f . this C ountry ? If t h ere were really any re- IrelConspiracies here, or any Combinations in 11 1 , i 4n da it was easy to perceive they must have ton t ,foreia n 6 communications with Paris. One self ‘l:t6cl Traitor and Irish EN-Director N oo k) was said to he received there with great fa.. aar,t and,distinClion ; and another (NAPP ER. TAN. p ro / aPPeared- to have been always under French 1 1 / I , t i c°i °n• The last Traitor had received His 4es tY's pardon perhaps properly, in some points vi ew , talw,s very properly ; in others he thought very n ot n ts e e i,Y• Were he in power himself; he s hould who us inclined to take the life of an ignorant man, lif e very advanced age and insignificant rank in it itereFndered him unable to do farther mischief ; but e P ranc hui he ar d i t whispered, or ever, surmised that t hou g h w as in any resped solicitous for his safety, would he would not hav e sp il t hi s bl oo d, he visit th noe tak en espec i al care that he should never at , whi le .1. saountry. I t was not un i mportant, that sea Under the f r i endly Government of France, red to English Newspaper, the Argus, was permit the h... O daii v , with seditious libels c atio ns Government. In one of its late publi tons even asserted, that the whole of mest oa . sa a , 4 „ , of throwing off • what it called " its Irelan icarr„,,:°er'unew." .1 he tendency of such pub n'eros fr Was too obvious to require any COM he , ons • w as b h ut' upon it. As to our resources, aacl i Y no de means disposed to make any 463e111‘4"3 that they may not be now its a better state than a • War Cotill per.nianti-t -ly place them, though during the War they were undoubtedly great, because this Country then en grossed the whole commerce of the world. He had heard the CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQUER yesterday state, that since the Peace the Exports had exceeded that of the 'w hole of the preceding year. But this might be accounted for by the rupture with the Northern Courts, which suspended for a while the exports of our manufadures to them ; but the fairest way would be to make a comparative Esti mate between the present year and the last of these before the:rupture with the North. At present, so far from possessing a monopoly, we were excluded from all the immense Coast under the French Domi_ nions ; our trade was contraband, and perhaps the Government only connived at it, because it was necessarily carried on in foreign bottoms, by which France alone was the gainer, while England was im pairing the sinews of her naval superiority. We amongst other things, boasted the possession of great capital, but when we reflected that France had the advantage of an immense range of Coast and improving manufadures, the energies of such, and so numerous a People, if turned principally to trade, would present us with a formidable rival, from whom we should have every thing to fear. Let it not be forgotten either, that if the spirit and energies of such a population was vigorously direct ed to the improvement of its inland Navigation, it would not be in the power of all Europe com bined, to deprive it of prodigious maritime resources. Against such immense advantages, how feeble a counterpoise did all our vaunted wealth and all our prosperity oppose ? I tell you, " there are robbers at your door;" you reply, '6 very well, I am rich;" what then is the answer—" so much the better for the robbers." Holland and Spain are now absolute ly under the dominion of France. We recognize the principle of Armaments by suffering them to send troops to reduce the Blacks in St. Domingo. Should they succeed in that, or even fail in the attempt, the same troops may be turned to a very useful account in an attack upon our Islands, while' we are ourselves dismantled. The machinery of Malta was so clumsily construded that the artists could not work it. We returned to our six al all his conquered Islands and foreign Dependencies. We made him a, present of 30,000 sailors who were captives in our hands ; and after he is possessed of all these great and multiplied resources, we say " Oh! that is true enough, but we have four mil_ lions of surplus in the Funds." But is Ireland safe ? Have we a Channel Flees ? Are we ourselves suffi ciently armed for defence ? Wealth certainly. is a very desirable and useful possession, if uniformly applied to the most judicious and effectual purposes of safety ; but if that be negleded, depend upon it that it serves only as a bait and a lure to the rapa city of your Enemies. It is asked, what chance have we of making this better by War ? I answer, what better chance have we now, when we are already treated with contempt, and still remain un armed, and incapable of resenting it ? I shall now conclude, by professing for myself, that by rousing the spirit of the Nation, and acting with pru dence and decision, I should be fearless of the suc cess of any War into which we may be driven. Sir F. BURDETT considered the Speeches employed on both sides of the subject, as presenting a most extraordinary portrait of debate, and, what was to him no less singular, he was in the strange predicament of approving of some of the arguments of both, and agreeing with some of those whom it was never his good fortune to have joined in opinion before. Whether the last Speech was intended t o excite the Country to War or not, it cer tainly presented a melancholy pidure of the present state of Great Britain and the rest of Europe, and the ..danger arising from the aggran dized state of France, bounded beyond its former wishes of the Alps, the Pyrenees, the Rhine, and the Ocean, employing, as was jusly stated, a popu lation of 40 or so millions of active, enterprising, enlightened inhabitants, living in the most fertile and salubrious countries, in possession of the great_ est range of European coast, strengthened by allied Navies, and courageous, consummately skilful, and experienced Generals and Soldiers—every man who wished well to this Country, could not possibly view this proved without dismay. But it is rather strange that these very Ministers who caused it all, should U s e the first to come here and tell us of it, and still more marvellous that they should propose a perseverance in the same ruinous conduft as a re medy. They looked to the map for Countries that disappeared, they themselves best knew why ; ano ther said we should remain armed, and keep a kind of blustering Bully in that Hou,e, yet with what dignity indeed was not very obvious, as, according to them, we were unable to do any thing. — Ministers were blamed for their interference in the affairs of Switzerland, as if there could he no in terference without making War the alternative ; but he wished to God there had been no greater blame to impute to the present or any former Mi nisters. From the general opinion, he could at least extract thus much, that War was not consider ed at this instant by any of them then as decidedly a matter of wisdom or propriety. France, at one time, surrounded by Despots, and driven to despair, had no other alternative but vidory and conquest, or unconditional submission. Being himself an enemy to making any experiments from War to Peace, or from Peace to War, he could not think that such a motive could influence the vote of any lover 'of his Country. We should not make ourselves, in his opinion, principals in any Continental War, and it was bad policy to shew such a disposition when we had no ability. He had an objedion to admit the happy effects of the - Union with Ireland, which he called a cruel Subjugation. But if against any danger they wished to rouse the energies of the people, let them give them back their Freedom and an Equal Representation, give them a principle round which they may rally, and which they would feel an interest in fighting for. Mr. DILLON defended the Irish Representation from swelling the Minist er i a l ph a l anx , an d sa id notwithstanding, that the reason they opposed them was, because of the melancholy situation of the Country since the conclusion of the Peace. Mr. JOHNSTON rose to express his approba tion of the proposed Address. He was sorry to hear the kind of language that had been used in that tiduse, the tendency of Whiets Was to provoke renewal of the War : he strongly approved of the conduct of His Majesty's Ministers, and hoped, that they would persevere in the same line of con_ dud which they hitherto adopted. He had the strongest hope of the continuance of Peace s both from. the state of. this Country } and from that of France. It could not be the wish of the Govern ment of France again to engage in War, because he believed, that a great Majority of the People of that Country wished for the restoration of the An tient Family at all events, the present Govern ment was only popular, in proportion as it tended to restore to the People of that Country, 'their an tient systems arid habits. It must, therefore, be the object of the Government to preserve Peace. Lora' TEMPLE said, that the only notice he should take of the speech of the Hon. Baronet, was to observe upon one passage of it—He had said that at the commencement of die late contest, France, surrounded as she was by the Despots of Europe, could not have ailed otherwise than she had done ; but when he spoke of the situation of his own. - Country, not indeed surrounded by the Despots Of Europe, for all the despotism of Europe was centered in France ; but when he spoke of the perilous situation of his own Country, he would not allow her to entertain the same kind of feeling which he justified and applauded on the part of France. If we used strong langtnie, it was termed bullying ; if we made any preparation, it was called an indi cation of our wish for War. It had been said, and industriously repeated, that, he and those Gentle men with whom he agreed in political sentiments, were anxious for the renewal of the War at any rate. He never would hear such insinuations thrown out without rising to give them a direct contradiction. He knew it was the object of some Gentlemen that such sentiments should be attributed to him and his friends, and therefore he would always rise to contra did them whenever they were made. Such sentiments formed no part of their Political Creed, nor had ever been asserted in their arguments. They did not wish for War, but they saw, as every man must see, the danger of the Country, but at the same time they saw not only the danger of going to War, but almost the impossibility of entering into it.— Their object was to open the eyes of the People of thi s s Country to the real situation in which they were placed, and to shew them into what hands the Country had falleh, and to what degree their inte rests had suffered ; to shew them, that under the present Ministers, England had no prolsesq of Se curity in Peace, nor of Success in War. Instead of being conductors, that, by being placed at the top of an edifice, would secure it from the effeas of lightning, they would conduct it to the heart of the building. They might, indeed, be blunt conductors, but still they would convey the lightning. When the Treaty of Peace was made with France, it was approved of in that House, and in the Country ; but it was upon a promise held out by Ministers, that they would vigorously oppose any future. attempts of aggrandizement on the part of France ; and how had they kept that promise ? We continued disarming, while France continued making encroachments. There seemed to be an in consistency between the language and the conduct of Ministers, for the House had been told, that the Ministers now ailed upon the same principles that they did when they made the Peace if they did, upon what principles could they now call upon the People to arm ? He wished to ask them, what greater reason had they for arming now, than they had had every moment since the signature of the Treaty of Peace ? If the Government of the Conn_ try was in other hands, much might be done for its salvation, not by War, but by real firmness, and teal conciliation : not by that system which was termed by Ministers, firmness and conciliation, which was, in fad, the most mawkish mixture that ever was forced down the throtks of the People of this Country. Looking at the present Address, it appeared to him to be of the same milk and water nature as the rest of their compositions ; it pledged the House to nothing, and therefore he should agree to it. General Al AITL AND said, that from what he had heard in the present debate, and in the one which took place last night, he should have thought, if he had not had other information, that the Minister had disbanded the whole of our. Army, dismantled the whole of our Fleet, and that the Peace Establish ment was lower than upon any formeroccasion. He should have supposed that this Country had been laid prostrate at the 'feet of France. He would, however, venture to state, that there never was a period in the history of this Country, when there was so large and so well organized a Military Establishment as there was at present. There was at this moment nearly as large a Military Establish ment as there was during some of the years of the late contest with France.. There was in time of Peace a greater Force than some of the Noble Lord's friends thought necessary for the security of the Country in time of War. It was said that our Fleet was dismantled, but in fad we had now . 48,000 seamen, and if the Fleet was not so strong as might be wished, it was not the fault of Minis ter's. - If the opinion - he was going to advance was wrong, there were many Naval Officers present who could correct him. When the nature of our Naval Establishment was considered,, whenit was considered how many privations our Sailors were forced to undergo in time of - War, it was but right that in time of Peace they should pailake . of its blessings, and therefore .it had been thought wise to disband them. But as to our Navy being reduced below that of France, he only wished that the contest between this Country - and France, between the civilized world and France, depended upon the result of a naval engagement between the Fleets of the two countries. He was old enough to recolleft an instance that appeared to him completely in point : when Count D'Estaing went with a very large French fleet to America, Lord HOWE was off New York withonly six Eng lish ships of the line, and those badly manned ; in stead of desponding, he sent an Officer to ask for volunteers from the merchant ships in the harbour, and the next day the only difficulty he had was, not to man his ships, but to get rid of .some of the crowd of volunteers that offered their services ; and he had no doubt but that under similar circumstances our fleet could noiv be manned faster than the ships could b ptepared for sea. Much had bcefl staff dF the danger to which our commerce was exposed from the great power dnd extent of .Pranee4 and tfr Hon. Gentleman had said, that if the First Censel could not beat (IS in commerce, he would thrower hid sword into the scale ; but he believed it was this very apprehension. of his throwing his sword into the scale, that would prevent France from ever rivalling us in commerce—Comilnerce never sought an &A - et - tried territory nor a Tyrannical Government. If the objet of France was to rival this Codntry iri commercial pursuits, then she must give up her pro_ jells of conquest; if she meant to persevere in her plans of conquest, then she could not think of ri. valling us in our Trade. But considering the Ques tion in any point of view, he saw no reascan to suppose that the continuance of Peace would render us less able to enter into a War; when it was neces sary, with vigour. If you were now to go to Wary what end would it answer, admitting that you were to rake every Colony belonging to Fiance, and clear the Seas of her Ships, would that make any change in the state of Europe ?' Or if it did, it . would 1.,;! for the worse, for France I'vould be obliged to do as she had done before, plunder her neighbours, to enable her to continue the contest. A case had been put, of a man reviving who had died fourteen years ago, ,od enquiring after the state of the family of Europe, he would say, What is become of Spain ?, the answer would be, '' She is gone ;"—Holland ? " gone ;"—the Netherlands ? '' gone, 6:c." He would then ask, what 'was the complaint by which so manyof the family had sufflered ? The answer would be," a revolution in the system." lie would then ask what remedies had been used ? The answer would be " bleeding." After finding what had been the effed of this System, he certainly would not recom mend its being tried again, but would rather pro pose gentle and alterative methods and restoratives. He concluded with giving his approbation to the Addles. The SECRETARY at WAR said he should not enter at large into the question. It was his inten tion to have made some observations upon what had been said about our Naval and Military Establish ments, but they had been superseded 9 by the very able Speech of the Hon. General who had preceded him. Some of the Gentlemen who had spoken must have taken very little pains to obtain information, if they really thought that our Army and Navy was so reduced as they had stated. We had now not only a more efficient regular Military Force than we ever had in time of Peace, but than we had dor_ ing a great part of the last War. The Troops that had been disbanded were only such Troops as were engaged for a limited time, and who consequently were entitled to their discharge—the Militia and some ofihe Fencibles. But our Army was not only greater, in point of physical force, than upon for mer occasions, but it was better organized, and bet. ter disciplined. With regard to our Fleet, if the Hon. Gentleman supposed that we were to have 3o Sail of the Line always lying at Torbay, his notions were singular upon the subjeft ; but when.. ever France had a Naval Force in the Mediterranean and in the West Indies, we had a force more than equal to meet them. With regard to what had fal len from the Noble Lord, he confessed it had given him great pleasure, because he was now able, lot the first time, to draw a practical conclusion frorri the arguments of those Gentlemen who concurred in opinion with the Noble Lord. It was certainly right that the People of this Country should know their real situation, and that they should not be led to suppose that they might rely with absolute certainty upon the continuance of the Peace.--- But he had been at a. loss to guess, to what praaical conclusion the Speeches of the Noble Lord and his Friends tended : it must be to one of these two, either that we Ought to break the Peace and go to War, or that the Ministers ought to be changed.—The arguments of a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WrNDHAra) seemed to tend to the former conclusion ; but the Noble Lord fairly avowed that his objet was a change in the Minis ters ; that he and his friends were the most proper . to fill their situation, and t h at th e y wou ld en j oy more of the confidence of the House and of the Country, than the present Ministers. It that was the Noble Lord's opinion, he wished him to bring the question fairly before the House ; let him at once - fairly move to dismiss the present Ministers, and not endeavour to embarrass the King's Govern.. ment by constantly giving exaggerated descriptions of the state of the Country. The Noble Lord seemed to consider this as a mawkish Administration.— If it were, another Administration might come that would be entitled to the epithet of Inso lent. The present Administration did not come into Office by means of intrigue, they had been called into Office in times of difficulty and danger ; and he hoped it would be recolleded, that they had given Peace to the Country, and that they had done no. thing to commit the Honour or the Interests of the Country. Mr. PDX said, he had listened with peculiar pleasure to' the Speech of the Noble Lord (TEMPLE); he always listened with pleasure to the warm elo_ . quence of youth ; but he was as much gratified with the matter as with the manner of the Noble Lord's Speech. He was pleased with it, because it came to a praaical conclusion—he was pleased with it, because he now found that all that gloomy and dreadful co. louring whiCh the Hon. Gentlemen had given to their Speeches (and which would have been considered a's almost bombastic in an Epic Poet), was not intended to plunge this Country again into a War, 'but was me relycalcula ted to effed a change in Administration. —He was also pleased to find thAt if this pradical conclusion of a change in Administration was effed ed, there vv...s no danger of our being plunged into a War, for the Noble Lord seemed to Think that when he and his friends came into office, their great names would terrify the First Consul, without the. necessity of going to War. But as the Noble Lord had given him so much pleasure, he would give him some advice upon a subjed upon which, fret expe.. rience, he was qualified to give adviCe, viz. on the best' mode of concluding an Opposition. 'lf. the Noble Lord wished to remove the present Mi. nisters from their situations, tl.e proper mode would be, not to make vague -ffind indefinite charges, but to bring forward specific_Motions.— He did not agree with the Right Hon: Gentleman who spoke last, that it was necessary to move at