The Sun. — London, England, 1859-04-01 00:00:00

cutting one another's throats ; and when the Tudor line came in, the result of all the attempts and all the proceedings of the kings of the Tudor line was to put down the power of the great nobles of this country. When the Stuarts came in, James 1., weak and imbecile as he was, saw what a great change had been effected in the government of this country ; and when waited upon by certain members of the House of Commons, he ordered for them immediately so many chairs, because, he said, " I am about to meet so many kings." When the great dispute took place between the House of Commons and Charles 1., the result was that there appeared to be a perfect victory of what is called de • mocracy. But the reign of the saints was a very sour reign. (A laugh.) The people got tired of the saints; they back to the old monarchy ; they called again for a king. However, they very shortly got rid of the line of the Stuarts —and then, from the revolution of 1688 down to 1831, there was a continual increase of the power of the landed proprietors of this country ; until at that time, namely in 1831, this country was ruled by as absolute an aristocracy as ever governed any country in the world. At that time, a noble lord proposed in this house his celebrated Re form Bill ; and what did that Reform Act do ? Not what the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle says it did, namely, transfer power from the aristocracy to the middle classes of this country, but it shared the political power be tween the aristocracy and the middle classes. (Cheers.) And what we seek now to do, sir, is not to transfer political power to any class whatsoever, but to share the political power with the mass of those who were, I say, wholly omitted by the noble lord in 1831 and 1832, namely, the working classes of this country. (Cheers.) Then, sir, I have put my finger on the one great blemish of the noble lord's Reform Act, nareely, the exclusion from power of the working classes of this country. (Cheers.) Now from 1832 to the present hour those working c lasses have been going on increasing in intelligence, and manifesting throughout their conduct not only intelligence, but virtue—(cheers) — and thereby showing that they are worthy of being, what I hope they will be yet in my time, partakers of political power. (Cheers.) The next great blemish of the noble lord's Reform Act was, that although it went a great way in the right di re ction, yet it did not go the whole way, and it left in the electoral body a greater degree of inequality than there ought to exist. Therefore I say that the two great objects we ought to have are to extend the suffrage to the working classes, and to regulate the distribution of the electoral bodies throughout the kingdom. These are the objects, or ought to be, of any Reform Bill that attempts to reform the Reform Act of the noble lord. And now I have to inquire whether the bill brought in by the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer attains either of those two ends. Why, sir, I should waste the time of the house if I said the right honourable gentleman's bill extended the franchise to the working classes. (Hear, hear.) It does a great thing, I believe, by proposing to extend the franchise in counties, but there it stops short ; and I, sir, who represent the great body of the working classes of this country—l, who virtually re present them—who represent a body living in the midst of them, and who have been picked out by the noble lord as representing them—l, who know something of the working classes, tell this house at once that the bill will do anything but give satisfaction to the working classes. (Cheers.) And therefore I have only to consider what we are to do. Well, from the beginning of the debate, I have heard this pro position advanced—that if you grant power to the working classes, you swamp all other classes. Now, is this true ? People do not make this important distinction—that the majority of the country can have no interest inimical to the interest of the country. (Cheers.) If you gave power to a minority, that minority may have interests at variance with the interests of the country ; but the moment you take a majority, the majority cannot if they understand their interest. (Ironical cheers.) That cheer shows me a very great want of perspicacity. (Laughter.) I say that the majority have no interest in opposition to that of the whole country. It is supposed that the working classes if endowed with power would swamp all the other classes of the coun try. I will take one single subject—a subject which is in the mind of the great body of the working classes—the minimum of wages. Now, the minimum of wages would be the most powerful means of preventing the accumula tion of capital. The prevention of the accumulation of capital would be more mischievous to the working classes than to any other class. Then I say that the interests of the working classes are not in opposition to those of the great body of the community. They may not see their in terest—they may be misled, as I have seen parties misled in this house—but their interests are identical with those of the community. (Hear, hear.) Now, then, just see the difference. There was a time when political power was in the hands of a small class. That class had a distinct inte rest opposed to the interest of the community. And how did they employ it ? In making dear bread all over the country for their private interest ; and only since you ex tended political power to the middle classes have they been able to beat down the aristocratic monopoly. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, I say the great leading point must never be left out of consideration—namely, that if power is given to the majority of the country, the majority have no interest in misusing that power ; that power conferred on the mino rity will be misused, because the minority have an interest in misusing it. But are we to be told that the working classes of this country will not follow the intelligent guid ing men of this country ? I want to know what it is that has covered every sea with your ships, that has filled every mart with your productions, that has made England what she is ? It is the merchant and the intelligent body of the working classes. It is those millions whom you have ex cluded from political power who have made you what you are. Give them power, make them what they ought to be, and they will exalt, not depress you, You will be greater than ever. (Hear.) This is the reason why I desire poli tical power for the working classes of this country—not that you will see any great alteration in the composition of the house, but because you will take away from the working classes their cause of discontent, the belief that they were unjustly treated ; and you will have a more contented, a more united, and a more virtuous people. (Hear.) That being- the end, I have now to consider the means. And here I am about to differ from many of my political friends, and more especially am I about to differ from my hon. friend the member for Birmingham. (Laughter.) He be lieves that from this bill you can get no good. I believe, if the Government is wise, you can get great good from it. And I would make a suggestion to my hon. friend, which perhaps may not have struck his mind—that he has not a monopoly either of political intelligence or political virtue. (Laughter and cheers.) No man can have a higher esteem for the wonderful abilities of my hon. friend than I have. He is a great orator—l was going to say, the greatest orator I have ever seen—but I do not consider him a great states man. (Laughter.) If he had combined the two qualifica tions, he might have ruled this c o untry ; but the power of speech which my hon. friend possesses is not aided and guided by that political wisdom which alone can give power in this country. (Hear.) I have to ask how can the pre sent bill be rendered most serviceable in attaining the end of conferring power upon the great body of my country men ? Shall we be thrown on the mercy of the Govern ment ? Shall we be thrown on the tender mercies of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, or the mercy of the noble lord near me (Lord J. Russell) ? With regard to the noble lord the member for Tiverton, I must say that I do not believe in him as a reformer. (Cheers and laughter.) Some years ago I had a much higher opinion of that noble lord's abilities and power to do good than I have now. And my reason was then, that when the noble lord was not in power he manifested the 'most liberal intentions ; but when in power he became as great a monopolist as any man that I ever saw ruling this country in my time. (Cheers and laughter.) He would have been thought worthy of power if he had never attained it ; but by the exercise of dominion he has entirely, in my mind, unfitted himself from ever being returned to power again. (Cheers and laughter.) I now come to the noble lord the member for the City, who puts me in mind of a Chinese lady's foot— (laughter)—which has been so swathed and bound that al though it is to her a thing beautiful and admirable, it does not help her on. The noble lord's mind has been so swathed and bound by party considerations that it is unfit for the government of this great country. (Cheers and laughter.) I gather from the noble lord's career this opinion —that England is an appanage for Whig politicians—that good government cannot be expected from any class but the Whigs—(laughter)—and he hopes, I believe I do not un fairly state it, that in our time, and in his time, he will see them again in power. I believe that although great ad vances were made by the noble lord, more particularly in 1831 and 1832, yet in the present state of things we can get a better Government than any that can be formed by either the noble lord the member for Tiverton, or the noble lord the memrer for the City. • (Cheers) And until we can bring together the united forces of the great Liberal party, I would rather have weakness on that bench (pointing to the Minis terial bench)—weakness isthere--(laughter)—l am speaking politically, I say I would rather see weakness there than have the noble lord the member for Tiverton back, with all his arrogance and insolence. (Cheers and laughter, and Oh, oh.") The right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle said that great advantages had been derived from the Reform Bill, and more particularly in the year succeeding the passing of that act. Now, Iso far differ froM that right hon. gentleman that I believe that during the year imme diately succeeding the passing of the Reform Act the old habits of this country, and the constant deference to aristocratic olitical dominion rendered the middle class unfit for the overnment of themselves. But day by day and year by ear the middle class are beginning to feel themselves inde endent, and the present House of Commons is more tho roughly independent of any party influence than any I have ever known. That I attribute to the great change made by the noble lord. I don't know whether he foresaw that—(a laugh)—but the result has been that at the present time the middle classes of the country are beginning to perceive that they have a right to a great share of political power, and they are educating themselves up to the point required for its government. (Hear.) Allow the working classes to come in, and you will bring hard-handed, hard-headed men,with all their intelligence and perseverance, to bear on the govern ment of the country . ; you will break down more and more —and that is my object—the aristocratical dominion of the country, and the people will govern themselves. (Hear.) I will now put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in as definite a form as I can, and I expect from him a definite answer. I want to know, if the bill is read a second time, and we are allowed to go into committee, whether, if that committee shall decide that the borough franchise shall be £6, and the county franchise £lO, with no transfer of votes, the Government would think that a cause for their resigna tion ? (Hear, hear.) If they say, "We should do so," I will vote again s t th e secon d r eading, because I think it would be more humane to put them out of their agony than to allow them to go into committee and find ourselves as far from our object as ever. But if he tells me that no such alteration will lead to such a result--that the Administration are quite ready to receive such an alteration—it will be my duty to vote for the second reading. (Hear, hear.) 1 ask the noble lord the member for the city how he will vote under these circumstances ? I have no doubt that he wants a Reform Bill. But does he hope to be able to Cary one? 'rhe noble lord in 1831-32 saw the country on the brink of a revolution before the House of Lords could b e forced to pass the Reform Bill. Are we now in a posi tion to coerce the House of Lords ? Does the noble lord believe that he will ever get the House of Lords to give his bill a second reading. (Hear, hear.) I say that if hon. gentlemen opposite alter the bill in the manner I have sub • gested they will be much more likely to carry a measure through the House of Lords than the noble lord would be. I believe that in the hands of the right hen. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the cause of refonn is more likely to he advanced than in any other hands. I would entreat the home for a moment to put aside party considera tions, and to look the matter fairly in the face. The noble lord tells me that hon. gentlemen opposite will not alter the bill in the manner I have suggested. But if they do accept these alterat;on.s why should not the noble lord accept them ? (Hear, hear.") Yo doubt the noble lord thinks he can govern the country , ett er than they can. I have no doubt that is the noble lord 's view. It is very natural for him to think so, and I dare say the noble lord might retort on me and say that I think I c wild govern the country. I at once acknow ledge that Ido hink so. (Loud laughter.) I have a doubt, however, that I shall ever be tried, and that my estimation of myself in this , Articular will never be fulfilled. (Laugh • ter.) I trust we 'shall so conduct ourselves as to bring this great question to n issue now—that we shall advance the great question of i dorm at least one step—and bring about that which I believe to be within our power—a better Go vernment for the people of this country. (Cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who was received with loird cheers from the Ministerial benches, said,—After seven nights' debate, conducted with a vigour and variety which have sustained the reputation of this house, it is now my duty to examine how far that measure which five weeks ago I had the honour to introduce, on the part of the Government, has been affected by this discussion, and to indicate the course which her Majesty's Govern. ment think it their duty to recommend the house to adopt with respect to it. It is some ten years, or nearly so, since the Prime Minister of this country, then leader of this house, and occupying the very seat which I now fill, himself one of the principal promoters and pro jectors of the Reform Bill of 1832, announced the delibe rate opinion of himself and of his Cabinet that that famous settlement was in their judgment no longer satis factory and sufficient. From that period to the present, by successive Ministries formed from different parties, the same opinion has been held, the same advice has been given to Parliament. The Crown hes been pledged, Par liament has been pledged, the Ministry has been pledged to attempt to amend the representation of the people ; but this is the first occasion on which a bill with that object has been offered to that house for a second reading—and how am I met under these circumstances ? (Cheers.) Now, sir, what is this bill which I have introduced It is founded on three great principles. We have had so much discussion about principles and about details that the house will permit me to remind them what these three great principles are. The first principle is that the constituent body of this country shall be increased by the introduction into it of a large number of persons and a vast variety of the popula lation who shall in future possess the suffrage. Under this bill, and in pursuance of this principle, I believe, that a: great an addition would be made to the constituent body as was made by the Reform Act of 1832. (Hear.) By the Reform Act of 1832, 400,000 persons were added to the constituency. By the bill which I introduced to the house five weeks ago I believe that a number, certainly not less than that, will be added to the electoral body. The second principle on which this bill is founded is that those larger communities whose wealth, population, and distinc tive industry and character have been developed since the passing of the Act of 1832 should be summoned to direct representation in this house. (Hear, hear.) The third great principle is that this bill maintains generally the pre sent borough system, on the ground that no efficient substitute has yet been offered for it, and on the ground that it is the only means by which you can obtain an adequate represen tation of the various interests and classes of the country, and that all the proposed changes would only lead to the pm-eminence of a numerical majority of the population. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, these are the three great principles upon which this bill is founded. All the rest, however important—all the rest is matter of detail, which ought to be, and can only be sufficiently discussed in committee. (Cheers.) The hon. and learned gentleman who has just addressed the house has put to me a question to which he has called upon me frankly to reply. I will reply frankly. I say that every proposition in this bill irrespective of the three great principles upon which it is founded is a matter of detail—(hear)—that the committee is the proper place for the discussion of those propositions, and that to their discussion in committee I and the rest of the Government will give a candid consideration—(hear)—but whether the point be a great one or a small one, whatever view the hon. and learned gentleman may take of it, I decline to pledge myself before that discussion takes place, and to say that I will defer to any determination at which the committee may arrive. (Cheers.) That appears to me to be a demand which is both unreasonable and unparliamentary. (Hear.) Now, sir, I have reminded the house what are the three great principles upon which this bill is founded, and I may be permitted to say that I believe a majority, and a large majority, of this house is in favour of those three princi ples. (Hear, hear.) If that be the case, I should not have been surprised to receive a very fierce opposition upon the second reading; that at least I might, perhaps, have antici pated and successfully encountered. With the conviction that I have that a majority in this house is in favour of the principle upon which the bill is founded, I might have an ticipated, and had a right to count upon the success of the second reading. But we arc not permitted to bring the ques - tion to that issue. (Hear.) With the majority of this house in favour of the principle upon which the bill is founded— (cries of "No ! no !" and cheers)—with the majority of this house, in my belief, in favour of tha three prin ciples which I have just mentioned—(renewed cries of " No, no !" and cheers)—this measure is not to be tried upon its principles, but a resolution is thrust into your hands, sir, which asks the house to commit itself upon two points which are, after all, points of detail—(No, no, and cheers) —which are unquestionably, points of detail, as I will show —(no, no)—andwhich ought to be considered in committee. (Hear, hear.) What are the two objections to which the amendment of the noble lord refers ? I will touch first upon the one which is, certainly, of least importance, what the noble lord calls the disfranchisement of freeholders. I can not admit that any freeholder is disfranchised by this bill. On the contrary, I think I might with equal justice say that it providek for the enfranchisement of freeholders, but for the sake of discussion, I will take the noble lord's state ment. Is this the first bill to amend the representation of the people in which there has been a measure of disfran chisement ? The noble lord has had great experience in Re form Bills, will he mention to me any bill with which he was ever connected in which there have not been large mea sures of disfranchisement ? (Hear, hear.) "Why, sir, by the bill of 1831-2 the whole constituent body of the cities and boroughs of England, amounting in number to nearly 100,000 persons, was partially or completely disfranchised. The noble lord was not on that occasion content with pro posing the disfranchisement of whole constituencies of the counties and cities of England ; he, to a great extent, dis franchised the freeholders in counties. The freeholder who lived in one of the great towns which were then first sum moned to Parliament, found that he was, to use the lan guage of the noble lord, disfranchised as an elector for the county, and became only a voter as an occupant for the bo rough in which he resided. (Hear, hear.) I received to-day a letter which is germane to the pointnow under discussion. The noble lord and some who have followed him, like the member for the city of Oxford, in solemn accents warned the house of the unconstitutional character of the provision which would allow a freeholder to vote in a borough. My correspondent of this morning lives in Bristol, which is both a city and a county in itself, like several other great towns in England. The freeholders of Bristol vote for the city by virtue, I believe, of nearly the oldest statute on our books, a statute passed some 500 years ago. But the gentleman who wrote to me, who is a freeholder, and who votes for the city, is not a freeholder by virtue of that ancient statute. It so happened that when the Reform Bill was passed in 1832thebound aries of Bristol were greatly enlarged, and many county freeholders were brought into the liberties of the city. My friend and correspondent is one, and he was, therefore, according to the noble lord's inter pretation, and through the noble lord's agency, disfran chised as a county freeholder, and became a mere elector for the city of Bristol. But lam bound in fairness to tell the noble lord that my correspondent is particularly pleased with that arrangement. (Hear, hear.) He assures me that there is nothing more popular in Bristol, and that those free holders who were nobodies in a large county now find them selves of great influence in the city. (Cheers.) The infor mation which has reached us from many parts of the coun try is quite in accordance with the statements of that gen tleman. (Hear.) Will the noble lord deny that in all the bills of 1831 and 1832, disfranchisement, as he calls it, was proposed on a very large scale ? But what would the noble lord then have thought if, when he had brought forward a measure dealing with the great principle to which I have adverted, and with the great interests which were then con cerned, the Opposition of that day had proposed a resolu tion, that the disfranchisement of the freeholders in coun ties was so unconstitutional a proposition that the house could not consider the question of improving the represen tation of the people ? (Cheers.) What has been the conduct of the noble lord upon subsequent occasions ? Has not the noble lord himself proposed to disfranchise altogether the existing freemen of the country to the number, I believe, of nearly 50,000, and has he not brought forward a measure in order to secure,' as he alleged, the representation of minorities, which would have deprived most of the county electors of their third votes ? (Hear, hear.) Some might have considered these proposals, some did consider them, very objectionable arrangements, ,hat they were looked upon as details ; nobody met the noble lord with a resolution such as he has now thrust into your hands, carrying away the attention of the house from the great interests concerned, and the great principles involved, and asking the house, by way of censure upon the general scheme, to commit itself upon mere points of detail. (Cheers ) Let me now touch upon that portion of the resolution which, though the more important one we have elicited in debate, formed no part of the original instrument when it was first concocted in order to embarrass the Government. (Hear.) But before I can discuss the important subject of the amount of the borough franchise, or vindicate the course which Government has taken, it is absolutely necessary that I should touch for a moment on the question of the county franchise. There has been, no doubt, in the course of this prolonged debate frequent expressions of opinion, and from persons of great authority, in favour of a county franchise fixed at the amount of about £2O. I believe I am fairly stating the case when I say that there is no question be tween £5O and any other sum, but that the question for dis cussion is between an occupation franchise for counties of £ 9 O, or one of £lO ; and I admit that there have been• fre quent declarations of opinion by persons who ought to exer cise, from their experience and their ability, great influence in this house in favour of a £2O occupation franchise for counties. But let us for a moment consider what the house has already done upon that subject. In 1851 the noble lord was Prime Minister. An hon. gentleman, a member for a county, had for some time previously brought the considera tion of the county franchise before the house. It was then commencing to be a parliamentary question of considerable importance. In 1851 that gentleman brought forward a mo tion for introducing a bill which would have reduced the oc cupation franchise in counties to the amount of £lO. The noble lord at the head of his Government resisted that motion. The motion was carried by no inconsiderable majority, and the noble lord resigned in consequence. It is very true that from circumstances not anticipated the noble lord in the same year again returned to power, but the noble lord, when ho returned to power, having acknowledged that it was in consequence of that adverse majority on the subject of the county franchise that he had resigned office, an nounced that he and his colleagues had resolved to take the whole question of the representation of the people into con sideration, and that they would even introduce to the house a general and comprehensive measure. Upon that under taking, and that undertaking alone, the followers of the noble lord no longer pressed the question on which they had already obtained a majority. In 1852 the noble lord, in fulfilment of his pledge, after taking a whole year to con sider the question with his colleagues, introduced a com prehensive measure of Parliamentory reform. Every point had been considered, and of course among them the county franchise; but the noble lord upon that occasion still re sisted the policy which had been indicated by the motion a the hon. member for East Surrey, and proposed a £2O oc cupation franchise. That measure of the noble lord ob tained no favour when it was introduced, and shortly after its introduction thenoble lord'sGoverninent again broke up. The house will thus observe that in 1851 the noble lord's Government was destroyed by an adverse vote in 1852, although he proposed to reduce the franchise to £2O, his re constructed Administration did not exist for more than a fortnight after the introduction of his measure. (Hear, hear.) In 1853 another Government was formed. The country was tired of Whig Governments ; the country was tired of Governments that did not possess the confidence of this house. No one could see how a working majority could be obtained, and after the defeat of the noble lord's Govern ment, and after the defeat of Lord Derby's Government, it was resolved that means should be taken by which we should have a Government that not only by the com manding talents of its members, but by the ge neral confidence of the house, should conduct the affairs of the country with an administrative ability not hitherto experienced, and that should settle all great public questions by the exercise of those qualities which statesmen of the highest class could alone possess. That Cabinet counted amongits members some most distinguished men. There were members of the Administration of Lord Grey, who had been companions in the construction of the original Reform Act. There were the favourite and most famous pupils of the late Sir Robert Peel. There were others also greatly distinguished, and there was unques tionably a combination of ability which seldom has been brought together in one council chamber. So great was the confidence of the country, and so great was the confidence of an admiring Parliament in this coalition Cabinet, that although, at the moment of their accession to office, they announced that their attention would be given to the sub ject of Parliamentary Reform, with the hope and intention of settling the question, I will not say finally and for ever, but in a manner which would satisfy the present, and per haps a succeeding generation, they were accorded a period of time not less than 12 months, in order that they might not be hurried in their deliberations, and that they should offer to the house the matured results of their wisdom, their experience, and their abilities. Well, what did they do ? These distinguished men having devoted their energies, in tellect, and time to this question did, in due season, bringl forward a comprehensive measure, they proposed a very considerable redistribution of seats, they disfranchised some constituencies, they proposed a reduction of the franchise in the borough constituencies ; and what was the result at which they arrived with respect to the county constituen cies ? After deliberating for a year, this Cabinet, composed of eminent men, and presided over by a statesman of European reputation, but Tory education, recommended Parliament to establish in the counties a £lO occupation franchise. (Hear, hear.) And who were the men who, in 1854, recommended this £lO occupation franchise? Among them were many of the most distinguished members of this house. Among them was, of course, the noble lord the member for the city of London. He was the organ of the Government by which the measure was intro duced. There was the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham), the noble lord the member for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston)—(hear, hear)—the right hon. member for Wiltshire (Mr. S. Herbert), and the right hon. member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone). And what do you suppose was the influence under which these distinguished men acted ? Are we to suppose they thought lightly on this important subject? Can you believe they would have given assent to the proposition unless they had maturely weighed and deeply investigated the question, with that sense of responsibility which men in such a pea -1 tion must feel ? We know now, it is no secret, and I may refer to it, that there was great discord, that there were great dissensions in that Cabinet on the question of Reform ; that Cabinet was also unfortunate upon it, for they lost a colleague, but, more fortunate than we, that colleague re turned to them. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord the member for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) quitted the Cabinet because it proposed a £lO qualification ; but if so, he must have returned to it and been convincing by its arguments. He quitted the Cabinet, but why did not his colleagues follow him if they shared his opinions ? (Cheers.) And it is from the lips of those right hon. gentlemen we now hear that the solution of all these difficulties, that the sound and proper scheme—the proposition that would be acceptable to the house would be a £2O qualification for the counties ! Surely, when, after such deliberation in such a responsible position, they gave their adhesion and approbation to a £lO franchise, they must have felt how far the question had advanced, how far public opinion sanctioned the pro position which before that had only been the proposition of a private member, supported only by the sympathy of his own followers in the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) And now we are told that the counsel given by our late colleagues are those which would have been acceptable to the present house. I feel much esteem for the talents and the eloquence of our former colleagues ; but I fear I might have spoken at much length, without pro ' ducing the effect they have done under the present cir cumstances—(hear, hear, and laughter)—if I, and the other members of the Derby Cabinet, had proposed and supported a £2O franchise. But I must, on this occasion, pursue the history of this subject, for it is very instructive. The measure containing this proposal of a £2O franchise was withdrawn by the Aberdeen Cabinet on account of the war then impending, and which shortly afterwards broke out. That war diverted and distracted all men's minds from the consideration of the subject. There was a change of Government and a new Prime Minister; when peace re turned, all the joys of peace accompanied it, the £lO occu pation franchise in counties was again a Parliamentary question. It has been said that when the Government of 1851 was upset by that very motion ; that it was not a fair expression of the opinion of the House of Commons ; that the division was taken at an unexpected hour ; that the Ministry was surprised. There can be no doubt, had this really been the case, the noble lord, who knows the House of Commons as well as any man, would not have thought it his duty to resign ; but he knew very well that on this subject the opinion of his party was determined, and that it was impossible to resist the question. But that was not the position of the noble lord (Palmerston) when he was himself the First Minister. (Hear, hear.) Then came out what was always suspected, that the noble lord, though ho had given his adhesion to the Cabinet of Lord Aberdeen, had really, in heart and spirit, a horror of the £lO franchise. (Hear, hear.) When ho was First Minister the question again menaced ; all the energies and resources of the Go vernment were employed to defeat the demand, and the noble lord knew well that from our side of the house he would again receive a hearty support. (Cheers.) I must remind the house that in the interval there had been a dissolution of Parliament on the Chinese business, that had conside rably reduced the Conservative ranks ; but the noble lord knew well we should support him, and we did support him. (Cheers.) Everyeffort was made and in the division there were including pairs, from 230 to 240 gentlemen sitting on these benches who supported the Government that night. The Go vernment triumphed ; the motion of the hon. memberfor East Surrey (Mr. L. King) was defeated in a full house, by a majority of 13. (Cheers.) And when next morning, I re vised the division-list, for my own instruction, I found that the aid which the noble lord, with all his efforts and energy, had brought to the struggle, might have been determined by the figures that denoted the majority ! (Loud cheers.) There is one incident more in this eventful history. The time came, last year, when we sat on these benches ' • the hon. member for East Surrey again brought forward his bill. On the measure being proposed, I moved the previous question, on the ground that the Cabinet of Lord Derby had resolved to consider the whole question. But the same courtesy was not accorded to me, that, under similar circumstances—(loud cheers)—had been accorded to the noble lord. (Cheers.) I evaded a division then, and, on the second reading of the bill, it being a period of the evening favourable to the assembly of hon. members, every effort was made to resist the motion. The hon. gentleman near me looked on that occasion with great anxiety to the noble lord the member for Tiverton. They had an idea that with his aid we should have been saved ; the noble lord gave no encouragement to that idea, and many of my friends upbraided him for his refusal. I did not sanction those reproaches. The division was called, and the motion was carried by a large majority; the noble lord himself voted for it; but I was informed, on the highest authority —and it was not told me as a secret—that had the noble lord supported us he would have been followed into the lobby only by four members of his party. I mention these facts to show how utterly impracticable it would have been to propose a £2O franchise to this Parliament. And when I hear it asked, night after night, why we have not proposed that franchise, which could not be proposed by Lord Aber deen's Cabinet, I am obliged to show the house how totally impracticable is the proposition, quite irrespective of its policy. What would have been our position had we pro posed a £2O franchise for the counties? Why, the struggle that is taking place now would have taken place on that very point, and I think with much greater advantage to the noble lord, because he would have been the champion of the House of Commons, whose deliberate and recorded opinion would have been outraged by the proposition, and no doubt the noble lord would have carried his views against the Government. (Cheers.) And what would have been our position if we had followed the noblelord's advice, so contrary to his former policy, and even smiled on with demureness by the lion. member for Birmingham ? (Hear, and laughter.) Why, our position would have been this,— if we had proposed a £2O franchise for counties, and a £6 franchise for boroughs, that we should have commenced our labours in committee with a £lO franchise for counties and a£6 franchise for boroughs. (Hear, hear.) This leads me to the very question of the borough franchise. That the £2O franchise for counties would have been au impolitic) proposition is what I will in a short time maintain, buthav ing brought the consideration of the house to what would have been the case had we followed the advice so liberally offered us by those who never practised it themselves— (cheers)—having shown what would have been our situation in proposing to Parliament a £2O franchise for counties and a £6 franchise for boroughs, I must now inquire whether we could, with our view of what we considered our duty, have made a proposition of that character. Let us consider the question of the borough franchi.e ; I will not call itthe reduction of the borough franchise, but this extension of the borough franchise recommended by the noble lord. On this subject we have had the opinions of several very eminent statesmen in this debate, professing different schools of politics. There was my right hon. friend the member for the University of Cambricicre. He is in favour of a £2O franchise for counties, and would like at the ammo time a £lO franchise for boroughs, but feels that something must be done, and then murmurs that he would have no 'objection to consider the question of a £3 rating franchise. Then we come to the noble lord the mem • ber :for Tiverton. He expressed his affection fur a £2O county franchise, and does not conceal his complete respect for a £lO franchise fir boroughs, but he says that the noble lord the member for London got him in a corner—(u laugh) —and showed him the resolution, and he liked the resolu tion, and expressed his readiness to act with the noble lord the member for London upon a resolution which he could support. I quite agree with the noble lord the member tier Tiverton, as far as the resolution is concerned, for the n3hle lord, by entering into this combination, made no engage ment which, as far as the borough franchise is concerned, will at all embarrass him. (Hear, hear.) lam quite aware myself of all the tricks and management with which you can deal with the borough franchise. You can appear to be doing a very great act and yet manage to keep out of the franchise the very class for whom so many people ex, press so much sympathy. (Cheers.) I have got all the plans in my pigeon-holes , and could avail my se lf o f th em with perfect impunity. An £8 rating franchise, which some fancy, would disfranchise half the constituency ; a £7 rat ing franchise is better than a £lO value, and even a £6 rat ing franchi s e, well doctored, would do your beisineas. (Cheers and laughter.) And the noble lord is not pledged even to any of these by the resolution which ho supports. (Cheers.) A. simple alteration of what are palled our" fancy franchises," most of which the noble lord supports himself, would entirely redeem the pledge of the noble lord ; and I do not know anybody who could reduce the borough fran chise in a more Conservative spirit than the noble lord. (Hear.) But I will describe generally the proposition and policy of my right hon. friendand the noble lord, which I, will take as representing the school of politicians who are in favour of a £2O county franchise, and a£6 borough fran chise. WS called and may be called by courtesy, a Conserva tive policy. I think it a feeble and a dangerous policy, and because I think it feeble and dangerous I think it also a foolish policy. (Hear.) But still it a Conservative policy, and is represented at present by my right hon. friend and the noble lord. Now let me advance to the propositions of other statesmen on this subject, and see how they agree, because it is important that we should understand what harmony of feeling there is on this subject among those very critics of the Government measure. (Hear.) I will not be so unjust to the noble lord the member for Londen as to estimate his policy by his resolution. His resolution is a party resolution and drawn up as a party resolution. (Cheers.) Ido not blame the noble lord for drawing up the resolution in a way which will allow as many as possible to support it ; but the noble lord as a man of honour must have a policy. He will not play and trifle with Parlia ment. Therefore, the noble lord had a policy, and I must say I think that he fairly described it. He said—at least so far as you can obtain a precise declaration of policy in a speech—that his policy is to admit to the franchise the great body of the working classes. I think myself that there is some principle in that declaration. I could wish that there had been more detail and that we had obtained from the noble lord some idea of the means by which the great body of the working classes is to be admitted to the franchise. I regret that that explanation was omitted, but what we wanted was soon supplied by a very remarkable speech made in the course of this debate, though some time after the opening address of the noble lord I allude to the speech of the right hon. member for Carlisle. I must say that that right hon. gentleman addressed the house on this subject with great precision, and furnished the house with a programme sufficiently distinct, and one which I think the country will understand. (Cheers.) A large disfran chisement of small boroughs, and an extensive redistribu tion of seats, were the first articles of the efficient pro gramme of the right hon. member for Carlisle. Then, not maintaining the phrase of " an extension of the franchise," the right hon. gentleman proposed a considerable reduc tion of the borough franchise, not less, as I recollected, than that very municipal franchise into the enormities of which, I believe, a committee of the other house is inquiring. Last, but certainly not least, with some courteous reluct ance, adopted as a compliment, I suppose, to the house, but certainly with a prescient approbation, the election el members of Parliament by ballot was named. (Cheers.) I was not so surprised by the programme as were some hon. members, for I remember a speech, delivered some years ago on the hustings at Carlisle, from which we clearly un derstood—though it appeared afterwards that we were mis taken—that the right hon. baronet had adopted these opi • nions. (Cheers.) . Nevertheless, here, at any rate, we now have a programme distinct and clear, and no man, however liberal his opinions, can say that he has not at last found a leader who will bring in a measure which he can conscien tiously support. (Hear, hear.) There was an admission in the speech of the right hon. baronet not less important than his political programme, and which, in my opinion, will yet exercise a considerable effect on political fortunes and public events in this country. (Cheers.) And what was that admission ? It was that he himself was one of the parties to the resolution of the noble lord the member for the City of London. (Hear hear.) As metaphors are now in fashion, I may say without offence that the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman in this business are clearly con spirators—(cheers and laughter)—because it has been an nounced by the right hon. gentleman that this resolution was contrived together; and the irresistible and inevitable inference is that the noble lord is equally pledged to the programme. (Cheers.) Well, then, we have now a leader, or leaders, with a definite programme—a large disfranchise ment of small constituencies—a large reistribution of seats—a great reduction of the borough franchise—muni cipal suffrage at least—and, more than probably, vote by ballot. (Cheers.) If these be the opinions of the right hon. member for Carlisle and the noble lord the member for London, practically speaking I want to know what dif ference there is between their political system and that of the hon. member for Birmingham ? (Cheers.) The hon. member for Birmingham, speaking out of doors, and colour ing more highly than he does in this assembly, and con fessing as he always does with the frankness of his nature • that he Would take less than he asked, and asked somewhat more than he wishes, may in some points that I cannot to recall to mind exceed and excel the programme of the con . federates ; (hear, and laughter)—but I have no doubt that the hon. member for Birmingham, as a practical man, has no objection to these conditions, and, for the purpose of • obtaining these results, would not decline to act with the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman in any manner, and in any place. (Cheers.) As to the ulterior views of the hon. member for Birmingham, we know that they have been brought forward. The Throne has not always been spoken of, perhaps, by him with that reverence which I believe all Englishmen feel for it—(cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers)—the House of Lords may, by chance, have been denounced eas a public nuisance to the country. (Loud cheers.) The ecclesiastical establishments have not yet re ceived disapprobation; but although the noble lord and the • right hon. gentleman may not be yet so advanced, or, if so advanced, may not choose to announce their opinions, we know that in all Cabinets there may be open questions— (laughter and cheers)—and, practically speaking, on the programme, I see no reason whatever why the hon. member for Birmingham should not be adapted as a trusted and honoured colleague of the right hon. gentleman and of the noble lord. (Laughter and cheers.) We see, then, that there is advanta ge i n P ar li amen t ar y d e b a t e — we see that we have arrived in this discustion at certain results; we know something more of the opinions of individuals ; we can see somewhat mbre clearly the future of parties; but what sur • prises me is the combination of eminent men, with such opposite opinions and such opposite projects, against her Majesty's Government. (Cheers.) What I cannot reconcile is the mild Conservative policy of a £2O franchise in counties, and some slight extension of the franchise in boroughs, ad vocated by the noble lord the member for Tiverton, by my right honourable friend,7and by the distinguished col leagues of Lord Aberdeen—(cheers)—with the avowed, the determined, the advanced, almost the flagrant policy of the confederates of the hon. member for Birming ham. (Cheers and laughter.) Now ' Sir, how are we met upon this question ? An hon. friend of mine, the member for Dorsetshire (Mr. Sturt), who made a speech on the first night of this discussion, which I have so good an opinion of his talents as to believe that he would not have made on the last night of the debate, said that he was not afraid of the people of England—(cheers)—whereupon there was great cheering from hon. gentlemen opposite; and I doubt not that if the sentiment had been uttered, and uttered so well and so gracefully, at any of the minor theatres, it would have been received with applause still more enthusiastic. (Laughter.) My hon. friend might have stopped and made two inquiries. He might have asked, " What are the people ?" and " Why should I fear ?" I have no apprehension myself that, if you narrowed the suffrage to-morrow, the honest, the goodnatured—the more than goodnatured, the laborious and brave people of England would take to pillage, to incendiarism, and to massacre. Who expects that ? (Cheers.) But, Sir, although I could, I hope, do as much justice to the qualities of our country men as any gentleman in this house, although I might not indulge in some high-flown and far-fetched expressions with respect to them that we have listened to,—the people may have their parasites as well as monarchs and aristocrae cies—(loud cheers),—l have no doubt that, whatever may be their high qualities, our countrymen are subject to the same political laws that affect the condition of all other com munities and nations. If you establish a democracY, you must, in due season, reap the fruits of a democracy. (Cheers.) You will, in due season, have great impatience of public burdens—(cheers)—combined, in due season, with a great increase of the public expenditure. (Renewed cheers.) You will, in due season, reap the fruits of such united influences. You will, in due season, have wars entered into from passion, and not from any reason of State—(cheers)— and you will, in due season, tolerate and submit to peace igno miniously sought and ignominiously obtained, which will diminish your authority, and perhaps endanger your inde pendence. (Loud cheers.) You will, in due season, with a democracy, find that your property is less valuable and that your freedom is less complete. (Cheers.) I doubt not that when there is a sufficient quantity of dis affection and dismay the good sense of the country will come to the rally, and you will obtain some remedy for your grievances, and sonic redress for your wrongs, by the process by which alone it can be obtained—by that force which may make your liberty more eminent. (Loud cheers.) I know I shall be told that these are old fashioned notions, and the hon. member for Birmingham has said the same thing upon that platform on which he is always speaking, and which he certainly adorns. He will point to the instance of the United Stites of America, and will say, " Their example proves what a complete delusion is the fear which you en tertain of democracy." But I say that between old Europe and those States there is no sort of analogy. I say thatthe United States of America are colonies. A country, though independent, does not cease to be a colony. They are not only colonies, but they are absolutely colonising, and none of ;the conditions obtain in them which regulate the social system of the ancient communities of this quarter of the globe. Well, that being my opinion, I cannot look upon what is called the reduction of the franchise in boroughs but with the greatest alarm, and I have never yet met any argument that fairly encounters the objections which are urged to it. You cannot encounter them by sentimental descriptions of the good qualities of the working classes. The greater their qualities the greater the danger. If you .lay it down as a principle that they are to enter into the constituent body, not as individuals, but as a multitude, they must be a dominant class from their numbers, and if you dwell upon their intelligence you only increase the power that they will exercise. lam taking the sentiments of hon. gentlemen opposite as admissions for the sake of argument. I am not myself giving an opinion that their in telligence equals their numbers. Now, sir, we had to con sider this question when we settled the point of the county franchise. We laid down for ourselves the object which in our mixed Government we ought to obtain with respect to a constituency. I made au observation when I first addressed the house on this subject which I only repeat because the hon. member for Dover (Mr. Osborne), who was not present, I believe, when I spoke, misconceived my statement, and ascribed it to the borough constituencies. I spoke of the great national constituency when I said that it ought to be numerous enough to be independent, and select enough to be responsible, Now, how is that object to be obtained ? We thought we could obtain.. that result by the establish ment of a variety of franchises which would introduce into the constituency numerous classes with different pursuits and with different interests—(cheers)—and we felt that by establishing the same occupation franchise in counties and in boroughs we should prevent the introduction of the mul titude which _otherwise-eif once we began a reduction of the borough franchise—would, in our opinion, ultiMately and speedily enter, and at the same time supply means by which the most intelligent and the most meritorious of the working classes could enter into the great national consti tuent body. Was not that policy sound ? Was it not a wise and effective policy?, It requires no argument from me te establish that position, or to enforce that rule. Why, Sir, the admission of the hon. member for Birmingham the other night was conclusive upon that point. What was his objection to this miscalled identity ? lie said that if you had the same £l') occupation franchise in counties and in towns he saw very little chance of your ever reducing the suffrage in boroughs. That was the very object we wished to obtain, but it is something to have such an admission from the lion. member for Birmingham. When he tells us that there would be this difficulty (Mr. Bright, " More difficulty')--it i because he perceives there is .a barrier and bulwark against the promotion of his plans, and that the course vie propose would have led to the establish ment of a very large constituency, homogeneous in cha racter, united in feeling, and no longer with jealousy be tweu a d ffUent classes, but at the same time so elastic and so expansive frm. the variety of the • franchises, from the different kinds of property - Int/Aired, thrt it wpuld always be increasing with th e increasing prosperity of the country, and no man of common industry and intelligence would be shut out from the suffrage. (Cheers.) But to this policy three objections have been urged in this debate. T u lip noble lord objects to it because he is against what lie calls uniformity of franchise. Well, this bill is introduced with the greatest variety of f,0 1 .1014§e that ever was included in any Reform Bill. (Hear, hear.) Personal property for the first time is completely admitted as a qualification for electoral privileges. There is scarcely a class and scarcely a species of property which is not con sidered in this unprecedented variety of franchise (hear, hear) ; and yet the noble lord gets up and says, " I oppose your bill because I object.to uniformity of franchise." The noble lord is against a uniformity of the franchise in coun- ties and boroughs. Now, how has the noble lord dealt with this matter 2 The noble lord has spoken through out this debate upon the subject as if it was an inno-. vation unknown and unprecedented in our political his tory. He says such a uniformity would be unconstitu tional, pernicious, and unjust. (Hear, hear.) It is for this i;. , ,ason that he oppose; the bill in' Ws speeches, and yet he never refers to the point in his resolution. (Hear, hear.) There is nothing in the resolution against uniformity or identity of franchise,. because you may reduce or you may extend the franchse, and yet you may preserve uni formity. But in his speeches the noble lord is extremely strong against this unhead of, this unconstitutional system, which, according to the right hon. gentleman the mem ber for the city of Oxford, would be the tomb of our liber- ties. (Hear, hear.) What has been the course pursued upon it by the noble lord ? The noble lord, as a mem ber of Lord Aberdeen's Government—as the principal organ of the Government by which that matured plan of reform was introduced—proposed five new franchises with the consent of the right hon. gentleman the mem• ber for ,Wiltshire, with the consent of the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle, and, of course, with that of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, and he proposed at the same time that they should be ex tended to counties and boroughs. (Hear, hear.) So much for identity and uniformity. Well, the noble lord failed in ' that praiseworthy effort ; but the noble lord, by that propo sition, announced that he was in favour of identity of suf frage in county and in town—in favour of a great variety of franchises, but that they should be equally enjoyed by the borough and by the county. The noble lord was ex tremely disappointed that that bill was not allowed to be read a second time, and he made an announcement in this house which I well recollect. He said he was convinced that the time had gone by when, on the subject of Reform, what were generally called comprehensive measures, could be passed, and he therefore intended to devote himself for the future to supporting the motion of the hon. member for Surrey. (" Hear," an a laugh.) The noble lord con sistently with that declaration has voted invariably for the hon. member for Surrey's motion which established an identity between the borough and the county. (Cheers.) Well the second objection to this bill is, that the working classes are not considered. I have already touched upon that part of the bill which relates to them. t say the work ing classes are admitted under the system that we propose in a manner which I think will be satisfactory to them when it is brought into operation—(cries of Oh, oh I" and Ministerial cheers)—and which I think is consistent with the principles of our constitution. (Cheers.) Why, hon. gentlemen talk as if the working classes at this moment had nothing to do with the suffrage ; but from infor mation that reaches me I believe that a great portion of those who live in. £lO houses,' especially in the north, are working men. (Hear, hear.) There are still 50,000 freemen who are worlsins , men, notwithstanding the kind intentions of the noble lord. (Laughter and cheers.) Can hon. gentlemen, when they are talking so constantly of the progress of the country, of its increase in wealth, of its progress in all the arts 1 hat contribute to em ployment, and ease of life, shut their eyes to the fact that with cheap provisions, with high wages, and with the other innumerable advantages arising from increased com merce, the working classes have not proportionately ad vanced, that the mechanic who 25 years ago could not live in a £lO house does not now and frequently live in one? (Hear.) If you take the existing constituency at 900,000, I calculate that more than a ninth portion of them are work ing men. But the proposition that we make, and which, if We go into committee, may be, I have no doubt, developed with great advantage, will increase that number, because by this bill we propose that the 40s. freehold shall, accord ing to the old custom of England again be found in the borough. We propose that the possessor of money in a savings bank shall be a voter, a qualification which has been sneered at, but which, I believe, will at once bring 50,000 or 60,000 persons into the constituency—(cheers)—and which, with some alteration, might be made still more ad vantageous. We propose these avenues to the constituency, and I believe the result would be, that the working classes would find their entrance into the constituent body greatly facilitated. (Hear.) I won't touch at any length upon the third objection to the bill—l allude to the alarm expressed by the noble lord, and by others, that if our proposition be entertained, electoral districts must be an inevitable conse quence. Now, when lam told that the difference between £lO and £2O is our only security against electoral dis tricts, I confess I feel some alarm. I had an idea, that the traditional feelings of Englishmen, the love of ancient land marks, that stron s s spell of local associations, do greatly in fluence the people of this country, and that whether they live in counties or in boroughs, they would certainly never be in duced to agree to an equal division of the soil for any elec toral purposes. (Hear.) But, admitting all the arguments which have been urged upon that topic, they appear to me to be equally applicable even to the existing system. That, however, is a topic upon which I will not at present dwell. Having thus noticed two heads of the resolution of the noble lord, I have incidentally offered arguments upon the principal features of the bill. I have shown to the house that the bill is founded upon three principles, none of which, let me remind the house, have been impugned in this debate, and all of which I believe the majority of this house approves. I believe the majority of the house approves of a large extension of the constituent body. I believe the majority of the house equally approves of the direct representation of those communities that have grown into importance since the Reform Act was passed. I be lieve that a large majority of the house is against any great redistribution of seats, or dealing exclusively with the small constituencies. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, these are the principles of the measure, and we have a majority in favour of them. I have shown you also that though the principles of this measure are approved by the house, and though a necessary consequence of that approbation would be that the bill should be read a second time, we are diverted from t tha issue by an amendment of the noble lord which touches only two points of detail. I have shown to the house that had we been in favour of a £2O franchise for counties it was utterly impracticable to propose it. I have shown to the house reasons of policy why we were in favour of adopting a £lO qualification for counties, and that it was the best security for preventing the reduction of the borough fran chise—a subject which cannot, in our opinion, be dealt with slightly and gingerly, and which if you enter upon will compel you not only to adopt the municipal suffrage, as the right hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle pro poses, but at once to go down to household suffrage, and to introduce that democratic element, the consequences of which I have slightly traced. And I have shown to the house, finally, that we have proposed the construction of a constituent body which would have been numerous, but at the same time elastic, and which from the material of which it was formed would have afierded to all who were worthy of the suffrage an admission—not too easy, butby no means difficult—into the possession of that important privilege. (Cheers.) Now, sir, how have we been met ? What is the argument of the noble lord the leader of the Opposition on this subject ? The noble lord approves the principles of this measure. He has announced that he is in favour of the second reading; but at the same time he will vote for a resolution which we have declared is fatal to the bill. I must say that I was astonished at the manner in which the noble lord addressed us—(hear, hear)—and I think I may express my surprise at the mode in which the Oppo sition on this subject has been conducted. I remember when party feeling in this house was very 'high, which fortunately it is not now ; I remember when parties were nearly balanced, when the struggle for power was very hot, and when the amount of exarcerbation out of doors, from 1837 to 1841, was such as all must deplore. Between 1837 and 1841 no less than three votes of want of confidence in the Ministry were proposed in this house; but I never heard of a "contingent vote" of want of confideace being proposed, and that by a near relative of a member of the late Cabinet. (Hear, hoar.) Nor do I remember that in those days the leader of the Opposition, and one who had occupied the posts of high confidence which the noble lord has enjoyed, ever told his opponents that if they counselled their' Sovereign to exercise her prerogative he would him self stop the supplies, (Cheers.) This is so different, too, from what one might have expected from the genial nature of the noble lord—(a laugh)—that, enupled with the an nouncement and withdrawal of the vote of want of confi dence, I really must treat it altogether as a jest. (Cheers.) Now, sir, I must say one word to the noble proser of this amendment. We have heard in the course of this debate a great deal about motives ; and I thought that it was unne cessary, because motives are really never imputed in Par liament, and, if anybody supposes that they are, it must be some now member who is not sufficiently experienced in our habits. (A laugh.) Rut I was astonished that it should for a moment have been supposed that a gentleman like the Solicitor-General should make use of an expression imputing molivos to any, one, least of all to the noble lord, lam sure that it is quite impossible for any gentleman upon second thought to suppose that he could have so intended ; and the Solicitor-General has this evening expressed what he did mean so clearly, and the noble lord has received what he said so gracefully, that it is unnecessary to dwell longer upon that. (Hear.) I have no wish, no intention—from the bottom of my heart I say it—to impute any motives to the noble lord unworthy his character or his position. The noble lord may not remember that when in 1854, not with cut emotion, at a moment of great personal distress, with drew his Reform Bill, and some reproaches awl some jeers were not spared him fiimn hi.§ own aide, I offered to him the unaffected tribute of the personal respect of the gentlemen who then sat opposite to him. (Hear, hear.) 1 do not think that there is a man who has sat long in this house but must honour the character of the noble lord. I admire that cha racter. I admire his great Parliamentary talents. I admire his ambition. (Hear, and a slight laugh.) But, Sir, it is not wise in this house to scrutinise with too much severity every act and every word of those who are entrusted with the conduct of parties in this house. In the flame struggle of public life, mind in the intense competition which prevails, one on whom devolves the lead of a party is called on for such constant action and such prompt decision that he must indeed be a wise and favoured being who can look back to everything that ho has done without regret, and who may not have used words over which memory may mourn. (Cheers.) But lam persuaded that neither the noble lord nor any of his friends would desire that in this house there sheald be any dinsinntien of that free and frank criticism upon the eenduot of public men which has always been a i part, and not the least valuable part, of our Parliamentary life And manners. '1 herefore, I am sure that the noble lord will not feel offended with me if I tell him that I think there is one quality in his character which has rather mama than made his fortune. It is a sort of restlessness which will not brook delay and that patience which are sometimes needed in our constitutional Government for the conduct of public affairs. (Hear, hear.) The moment that the noble lord is not in power he appears to me to live in an atmosphere of coalitions, combinations, maps d'etat, sad cunning resolutions . (Cheers and a laugh.) An ap propriation clause may happen to every man once in his life. (Renewed cheers and laughter.) But there is only one in.au living of whom it can be said than in 1835 ho over- , --- - --- threw the Government of Sir R. Peel upon an impracticable. pieta 4t ; that in W. 32 he overthrew the Government of Lord Derby with an objectless coalition ; that in 1855 he overthrow the Government of Lord Aberdeen by a personal covil'etat ; and that in 1857 he overthrew the Government of the member for Tiverton by a Parliamentary manoeuvre. (Che'ers,) _Now, I Leg the noble lord at this moment to throw the vision of his memory for an instant back to the year 1852. He sat before me then, the head of a mighty host. Ho drew the, fatal arrow that was to destroy oar Government. Ile succeeded. He deStroyed in breatlless haste the •Govern :milt of Lora perby. Bo s t 4id. Lc - aastroy. anything el se Did he not 'destroy Also the position of a great statesman ? • Did he not destroy almost the great historic party of whi c h ho. was once the proud and honoured chief ? (Cheers.) The nobfe lord does n ot sit opposite me now ; but had he not hurried the catastrophe.of 1852, .and had he bid e d ti me • aCcording to thy v./lodic habit of olir eenztitution, lie would have returned to these benches the head of that great party of which he was once the chief and greatest ornament. What has the noble lord done now,and what is the moment that he has chosen for this party attack —an attack which it was not necessary to the vindication of his policy, or for the assertion of those principles which Ibelieve he sinPorOY holds l .),l:o4# fqrwqr4 oil tile of 06-,i-orwuent a me asure, founded on principle, for which fairplay and cus tom would have insured a second reading. The discussion on 1 .he questions which the noble lord has thrust, as it were, int o the Speaker's hand would, in the due course of Parlia mr routine, have been postponed yet for some time ; bra t what is the moment which the noble lord has chosen to pr 4 'cipitate this struggle ? It is the most critical in the his tor y of the affairs of this country which has existed for many yes rs. (Hear.) The noble lord could not be ignorant of it. He knows that some weeks ago I came down and informed the .house that important negotiations were pending. He has (tiler means of information beyond the communications whic'a are made to this house by the servants of the Crown. The noble lord, I doubt not, is well informed of the present state of foreign affairs. He could not have been unmindful of thorn even in that address on the introduction of his reso lution. which, though it related merely to domestic subjects, furnisled the noble lord with an opportunity to cast a sneer against that Minister to whom is entrusted at this moment the mo. it awful responsibility that can be conceived . (Cheers.) At a m oment when it was of vital importance that the autho ritz of the Government should not be assailed—at a moment when, , af all other men, the Minister for Foreign Affairs should not be held up to public scorn—the noble lord chooses such a moment for a party attack and a personal sneer. (Cheer:;.) Sir, I should not be acting with frankness to the house if I concealed from it that the • conduct of the noble lord has been most embarrassing to the Government. (Loud cheers.) I declare, upon my responsibility as a Minister, that the conduct of the noble lord has produced injurious effects upon the public service. (Renewed cheering.) I have such confidence in the fidelity of our allies, I have such confidence in the energy and resources of the colleague against whom the noble lord directed his sneer, I have such confidence, above all, in the patriotism of the House of Commons, that I believe the division to-night will confound the combinations of the noble lord and will assist and per haps ensure the peace of Europe. (Loud cheers.) The noble lord,who on these occasions has the habit alwaysiof introduc ing the question of dissolution, told me the other night that he was ready for the hustings, and that he should brandish upon it the bill which I had introduced. In the office over which it is my honour to preside, I have often the opportu nity of meeting- the prime and principal constituents of the noble lord. Great merchants, manufacturers, bankers, men of different opinions, agree in nothing else but in their readi ness at all times to assist the administration of the country. (Hear, hear.) lam indebted, as my predecessors have been, to their wise suggestions and to their zealous aid. But I can tell the noble lord that when they come to me it is not Parliamentary Reform after which they seek—(hear, hear) —it is not financial interests which any longer concerns them. What they say. is, " Please I Let the Government give us peace, it is the only thing which we require. Our energy is depressed, our enterprise is checked, but let the Government secure peace, and then they will be entitled to the gratitude and the confidence of their countrymen." (Hear, hear.) Well, I thought we had secured peace. I thought the time had arrived when I might have come down to this house and told them that the dark disquietude which for three months has hung over Europe had entirely L passed away. But for this untoward and unhappy motion of thenoble lord that might have been—(ironical cheers and counter cheering)—and I tell the noble lord that when he goes to the hustings of which he talks, and brandishes this bill, he will find that the minds of his constituents are full of another matter, and that they will demand from him the reasons for the conduct which he has pursued. (Hear, hear.) Sir, it is something more than a year ago since her Majesty summoned Lord Derby to her councils. Lord Derby then, as upon all other occasions, expressed to her Majesty his readiness, as the last r esource , t o serve hi s S overe i gn. B ut he felt it his duty then to express to the Queen that his po sition in the House of Commons had been much weakened by the last general election, and that he could not count in the following of his friends on m ore p ro b a bly th an one -thi r d of the membrs of that house. Under these circumstances Lord Derby humbly submitted his wish that her Majesty would re-consider her intention and deign to pause before her Majesty commanded him to undertake so difficult a task. The Queen was graciously pleased to act upon that suggestion, and did re-consider the subject. Her Majesty surveyed the condition of her kingdom and of the empire with that comprehensive and perfectly impartial spirit which all who have served her Majesty know she ever exercises— (hear, hear)—and it was under these circumstances, having re-considered her position, that her Majesty deigned to sig nify to Lord Derby that she deemed it was his duty to undertake the management of public affairs. Sir, we have endeavoured, in pursuance of the commands of our Soye reign, to administer the business of this country. That we have done so sedulously I presume to say. (" Hear, hear," from the Opp os iti on .) Th at we have conducted' public affairs not altogether without succ ess I ven t ure t o b e li eve. (Cheers.) I kow that when we acceded to office there was a great fear in the public mind that the country was not defended as became her. I know now that the name of England carries authority abroad, and that she can add to negotiation all the influence which results from the con sciousness of power. (Cheers.) I know that when we acceded to office there was great distress and depression in men's minds ; there was the fear of increased taxation im pending, and the disappointment which resulted from the apprehension that engagements for the reduction of the national taxation would not be fulfilled. Yet the burdens of the people have not been increased, the promises of re duction have been fulfilled, and the state of our revenue is, in every sense, highly satisfactory. (Cheers.) With regard to the more important branch of foreign affairs, I can say truly, although we had an inheritance of trouble, and although, probably, during the period of our official exist ence we have had as many difficulties to contend with as could well fall to the lot of any Ministry—although during the last three months the question of peace or war has some times appeared to be that only of a moment—still we have so managed affairs that all immediate dangers seem to have vanished, and there is a prospect of arrangements which, if concluded, will, in my opinion, lead to a permanent and a happy peace. (Cheers.) I have touched on our affairs under these principal heads. I will not allude to others of great but not of so great importance. We have endea. voured to introduce measures which would Make law reform not merely a mockery and a byword. (Hear, hear.) If we are indebted for the pacification of India to the wisdom of her ruler and the valour of her chief, at least it must be acknowledged that the Adminis tration did support these men by sending out to them, under great difficuties, such supplies of valiant sol diers as secured the triumphs which were achieved. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has talked, and he always does talk, about a dissolution of the present Parliament. These are words that cannot escape my lips, and I must, with the permission of the house, refrain from touching upon such a theme. But I may be permitted to say, in answer to the noble lord, that, if in the course of time the present ser vants of the Queen find themselves upon the hustings be fore their constituents, I, for one, have that confidence in a great and generous nation that I believe at such an hour they will not forget the difficulties under which we under took the administration of affairs, nor perhaps be altogether unmindful of what under such difficulties we have accom plished for their welfare. (Cheers.) It is by our conic. tion in the justice of the people of England, it is beeP:use we believe in the power of public opinion, that we have been sustained in this house during our arduous struggle, and are sustained, even at this moment, amid all the ma ncouvres of Parliamentary intrigue and all the machinations of party warfare. (The right hon. gentleman resumed his seat amid loud and prolo nge d cheering,) It was now a quarter to one o'clock, and, the SPEAKER having put the question, the house proceeded to a division. The greatest excitement prevailed in all parts of the house. Upwards of 600 members were present ; a considerable number of distinguished persons occupied the seats assigned to visitors on either side of the entrance behind the bar and the gallery immediately over the clock ; while both the Speaker's and Strangers' galleries were crowded with an excited audience. Upward of 20 minutes were consumed in taking the division, and as the moment for announcing the result approached, the excitement rose to the highest pitch. The great bulk of the members as usual, on returning from the division lobbies, resumed their places on either side of the chamber, but a large number of them h a d assembled in a, douse orowd at the bar. At length the tellers made their appearance, and then .there were cries of " Order, o the cheer, lay, wasseenin toonthewhichtableside majoritys in anticipation of the actual res u lt, rose from the Opposition side, The numbers were— For the second reading of the bill For Lord J. Russell's resol u ti on.. 330 resolutionforthe As the numbers larijo u - e t re y announ ce d the 39 house again rang with a triumph an t shout from the Opposition benches. It , will be perceived by the division that 621 members were in attendance--a number unprecedented, except on an extraor dinary occasion such as this. After the a resolution of Lord J. Russell, and thereuiion Mr. WYLD rose and said—l wish to add an amendment. (Laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh 1") It is " That at any election of a m em b er or members to serve in Parliament, the votes shall be taken by ballot." (Cheers.) lam sure, after the prot rac t e d debate which has just been brought .to a termination, I shall best consult the convenience of the house by not entering into the general question involved in my amendment (" Hear hear," " Divide!" and a laugh.) I shall, th ere f ore, at once move that the words I have read be added to the resolution. (Cries of " Withdraw!" and "Divide.") The SPEAKER having put the question, Mr. H. BERKELEY--whose rising ga ve occasion for some laughter arid cries of " Divide I"—said, Sir, as thi Lis a question which I have taken a prominent part in advocat ing for m any years past, I trust to the cour t es y o f hon. members to allow me to address a few observations to the house. Fi rs t, I wou ld request my h on . f r i en d (Mr i Wyld) not to press hi s mo ti on. Laughter and cheers.) Sr (cries of " Divid e !" a l aug h , and "Go on. I")—I have alway s consulted those honourable gentlemen who( t h a done m e the honour to place me in the front he - battle in this question as to the mode in which it should be brought forward; and I find it is the general opinion of the will it leading men of that particular party thatbe detri • mental to the ballot to introduce it to the house in this manner. It is not, however, in deference to any man or any set of men that I have come to the conclusion that this is not the time or the occasion for propounding it. (A laugh.) I do not think a man is called on to support any question, however important, if he be of opinion that it is brought forward in an improper manner. (Divide.) If m y hon. friend will give notice of a substantive motion on this ques tion, it shall have my cordial support. (Divide.) But if he persists in dividing now, I will certainly not „ ,, o into the same lobby with him. I will not vote against the ballot, but I will certainly withdraw from the house. I entreat the lion. gentleman not to place this question in this disadvan ' tao - eouu,s position. (H ero t h e hon. member turne d roun d to the hon. member for I3odmin, and addressed several ob servations to him at th e top of his Voice, but amid such in cessant cries of " Divide, divide !" that his remarks were inaudible.) _ _ _ . . Mr.' M. GIBSONSir, it appears to me that to com mence the discUssion of such an important question at such a moment as this would be per f ec tly unprecedented. (Cries of " Oh!" and interruption.) lam in favour of the ballot (Divide, divide) but I respectfully submit to my hon. friend th at the best mode of submitting the question of the ballot to the house will be to give notice. (Interruption, Cries of "Now," and " Divide.") If he wants to obtain the least possible support, he will go to a division now. (Divide.) As a friend of the ballot I trust he will not call fbr a division. If he does, I for ono will not go into the lobby with him Here Mr. Bum= and other hon. members surrounded Mr. WILD, and endeavoured, apparently without effect, to Lhako hiti resolution. Mr. CLAY rose amid loud cries of " Divide," which were renewed as often as ho aAempted to make himself - heard. All that could be made out was that the hon. member moved the adjournment of the debate! (Divide, divide.) Sir J. V. SHELLEY next rose, and was greeted with deafening cries of "Oh;" And "Divide." The hon. gentle man sat down without being able to gain a hearing. Lord. J. RVSSELL th en rose an d addressed the house in dumb show. The noble lord's lips were seen to move, but not a syllable could be heard above the uproar. From his lordship's gestures it was supposed that he appealed to the hon. member for Bodmin not to press his motion. The motion for the adjournment of the debate was nega • tived without a division. The SPEAKER then put the question upon Mr. Wyld's resolution, when Mr. Berkeley, Mr. M. Gibson, Mr. Bright, and many other hon. members rose and left the house, without voting. So great was the throng of members pass ing out at the door that "time" was called by impatient members within the house, and the Sergeant-at-Arms was compelled to close the door before all the retreatins• members could make good their exit. The SPEAKER then again put Mr. Wyld's resolution, when an overwhelming cry of "No I" was raised. The cry of " The Ayes have it" was, however, heard, and the house divided : For Mr. Wyld's amendment 9B Against it 328 Majority against. —230 The SPEAKER then put Lord John Russell's resolu tion ; but there were many Noes, and it was thought a division would take place. When the crowd of members who had gone out to avoid voting on Mr. Wyld's amend ment had entered the house and the doors were shut, the question was again put. The SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it. Some few members said the Noes had it ; but when the SPEAKER put the question a third time no one gainsaid the declaration that the Ayes had it, and the an nouncement was received with cheers from the Opposition. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said—lt will, perhaps, be convenient to the house to know that I shall propose that this house at its rising adjourn until Monday. (Hear, hear.) The remaining orders of the day were disposed of, and the house then adjourned, at 10 minutes before 2 o'clock, until Monday next. THE ARMY. The Duke of Cambridge having expressed him self highly pleased with the efficient state of the troops at Chatham on the occasion of the late in spection at that garrison, the following garrison order has been issued to the troops by Major- Gcneral Eyre : " The Commandant has been commanded by his Royal Highness the General Commanding-in -Chief to express to the several commanding officers, and to the officers, non commissioned officers, and privates of the various corps in the garrison, the very great satisfaction his Royal High ness has experienced from his inspection of them. " It gives Major. General Eyre much pleasure to be per— mitted by his Royal Highness to convey to the troops, moat of whom are so young, this encouraging expression of ap proval from their Commander-in-Chief. By order, " C. EVANS GORDON, Major of Brigade." In addition to several other improvements which have been effected at Chatham garrison for the benefit of the troops by Major-General Eyre, orders have been recently issued by him directing for the future each corps to assemble a board once a month, consisting of a field-officer, captain, and quarter master, for the purpose of inquiring into the prices the men pay for their messing, and also to see that the quality of the articles they receive is good. At the end of each month the board will report to the General the result of their inspections. THE NAVY The Eurydice, 26, attached to the reserve at Chatham, is ordered to be fitted with all despatch, to be used for the instruction of naval cadets in prac tical seamanship while studying on boaid the Bri tannia, 120, at Portsmouth. The Amphion, 36, screw steamer, belonging to the steam reserve at Chatham, is ordered to have defects made good, and to be brought forward for the steam reserve. The screw corvette Charybdis, 21, is progressing very fast at Chatham dockyard, and is expected to be launched early in June. The Nelson, 120, old sailing ship, in No. 2 dock at Portsmouth yard, has a large number of hands engaged upon her removing her upper deck, and otherwise hastening forward her conversion to a screw steamship. The following appointments were made yester day at th e Admiralty :—Commander H. W. Hire, to the Urgent, vice M'Donald; Lieutenant J. H. Babington, to the James Watt ; Lieutenant S. G. Price, to the Hero ; Lieutenant Charles G. Jones, to the Mersey ; Lieutenant George Robinson and Lieutenant Charles D. Davies, to the Excellent. COUNTRY MARKETS. MANCHESTER —MARCH 31. We continue to be fairly supplied with wheat ; there is no great activity in the trade, still a fair business passing at full rates. No change is made in the prices of any other article. BIRMINGHAM—MAncu 31. The supply of wheat at our market to-day was very short, and the sales realised the currencies of last week. Barley held for previous rates. Oats 6d per qr. cheaper. Beans and other articles as before. LOUTH —MA um 30. We have to report less animation in the demand to-day' for wheat, and prices tending downwards, with little busi ness doing. Wheat ... . 39s to 43s Oats.. I 25 29s White do 42 s to 47s Beans 42s sto to 46s Barley ... 37s to 40s I B eans, new —s to —s EDINBURGH GRAIN—MARen 30. With the exception of wheat to-day, sales were rather dull. Wheat on the top is Od down average Os 4d up. Barley on the top is 10d up. average is 3d down. Oats on the top 2s Od down average Os Id.up. Beans on tho top 2s Od down.... average Os 3d up. Averages per Imperial quarter. Wheat.... Barley 1 12 10 0-12ths Oats 1 4 1 5-12ths Beans Total Supply and Sales. Wheat 992 qrs Sold 739 qrs Barley.... 9BO qrs S o ld 577 qrs Oats .2106 qrs Sold 1248 qrs Beans 2ll qrs Sold 206 qrs [ADVERTISEMENT.]—ThorIey's Food for Cattle is now beginning to seriously attract the attention of the farmer, breeder, and feeder of stock. Two years of unremitting care and attention have enabled its inventor to take high ground as a benefactor to these interests ; and notwithstand ing the many drawbacks, the malevolent shafts hurled against it and its probable utility, the food, from its admitted value, will become a necessity to the agricultural interest. Experience has proved, first, that it effects a considerable saving in the consumption of provender; secondly, that it produces health and vigour in all animals subjected to its influence : and lastly, increases in a remarkable degree an early development of fat. Mr. Thorley, originating this singularly efficacious food, aimed at a compound calculated to supersede, to a certain extent, the tedious and expensive mode then prevailing of fattening stall-fed beasts. In this he happily succeeded ; and success prompted a very natural desire to improve upon the invention, so as to make it"ap plicable to every description of domestic animal. The Eng lish farmer was slow to encourage its use, and manifested an unwillingness to rely upon its efficacy, fancying he possessed in the produce of his farm, ample materials whereby to feed and fatten his cattle at a cheaper rate than by the employment or addition of artificial food. The tests to which this food hat been subjected have proved its perfect admissibility as a cheap addition to the natural produce of the farm ; inasmuch as in all cases a subtraction of one-third may be safely submitted to in the usual food of animals ; and that the produce will be realised, and rendered marketable in two-thirds of the time usually consumed in developing fat ; it, therefore, becomes apparent that a certain saving is effected by a fair application of Thorley's Compounded Food. It is believed that the present unprecedented low price of wheat has induced its very gene ral use, in preferenc e t o an y, other of the usu a l art i cles of food ; t is, however, much questioned whether wheat is a nourishing and proper food for the working horse, certainly it is not for cows or pigs. Mr. Thorley's Food, besides possessing the advantage of greatly invigorating the health and increasing the physical power of all animals, is a tonic and gentle stimulant, and when mixed with their other food, materially assists their digestive powers --a matter of great consequence, since it is an undoubted fact that the nourishment contained in their ordinary food is lost, conse quent upon the impaired or defective action of the digestive organs ; it will also be found to be particularly beneficial in restoring to good working condition horses which have been over-worked, or become weak from disease, or are naturally of a feeble constitution. In cows its effects are a undoubted, indeed a l most marvellous, nearly doubling the m yi o e re ld of milk nd remarkable, bduitatpelra,ywmhgilsitn a few week s it s manifestit at the same tim e enr i c h es the quality of b o t h. In pigs its fattening qualities are still superiority over every other kind of compound or manu factured food adopted in the feeding of swine. Such has been its marked success, that at all our great cattle shows, Royalty, noblemen, and others who have fed their cattle on Thorley's Food, have invariably carried off the principal Royalty, of our p r i nc i pa l nobility, the prizes, whilst cards of commendation have b een awar d e d . The p a t ronage of clergy, and of our leading agriculturists, must prove a d he may confidently rely, i n pro d uc i ng so great incitement to this gentleman to pursue hi s onwar d course; an highly favoured a compound, on a con ti nuat i on of such hi g h and distinguished patronage. BIRTHS, AL—On the 2d ult., a t M oss-park, Toronto, Canada, the A 27. Nife of the Hon. George Allan, of a daughter. AIILDMAY.—On the 30th ult., at 21, Lowndes- street, the Hon. Lady St. John Mildmay, of a daughter. SERRIGHT.—On the 30th ult., at Wilton. Crescent, Lady Sebright, of a son. MARRIAGES BOWMA N — OIiTEW.—On the 30th ult., at St. Pancras parish church, James Bowman, Esq , of Shanghae, China, to Elizabeth Anne Onten, of Surrey Lodge, Brixton-hill. WI LLIAMS—DAvnY.—On the 29th . ult., at the parish church, Cury, Cornwall, G. Williams, Esq., of Trevince, youngest son of the late M. Williams, Esq., M.P., to Charlotte M. Horton, youngest daughter of S. Davey, Esq., Bochym, near Helstone, Cornwall. i DEATHS. BACON.—On the 30th ult., at 1, Kensington -garden-ter- race; Laura Frances, wife of James Bacon, Esq., Q.C. CAVENDISIL—On the 26th ult., at Doveridge, Derbyshire, the Hon. and Rev. T. Cavendish. CRUISTIE.—On the 30th ult., at 1, Sussem•terrace, King's road, Chelsea, James Edward Christie, Esq., aged 64. EDWARDS.—On the 26th ult., at Chard, Somerset, the Rev. Henry Edwards, 8.C.L., aged 66. • MURRAY.—On the 28th ult., at Boulogne-sur-Mer, Ann, widow of Vice-Ad m i ral Sir George Murray, K.C.8.,1 in her 96th year. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112 Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county of Middlesex, Friday, April 1, 1859. Ea 31i the gal Ph( foo Pea led for Ro Ins dor Dr. hea me, stn Me oth pri: the did Ne , 'Or (Su Tr( Spc pov all pre Ils. lls. syp syn thr syg say and wit tioi a vi R.l 'lan, Los THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 1, 1859 I