The Sun. — London, England, 1862-02-14 00:00:00

rnE SUN; LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 14, 1862. prising 179 parishes, possessed 10 such schools, and in Cornwall, with 71 parishes, only one school was connected with the Privy Council. That was no discredit to a prelimi nary system, but it would be a discredit if they could not make the system meet these great and pressing and wants. All the districs he had named contributed to the grants, and it was therefore a matter exceedingly desirable that they should receive a share of the money which they had paid. The way in which it had been proposed this should be done was by introducing a lower kindot teaching. But there was a great difficulty. The present system of grants was such that if the teaching was good the grant was ample, but they Led no real check upon the teachers. It seemed to him the .only condition under which tney could possibly recommend, without reckless expenditure, that teachers of an inferior class should be employed, would be that there should be some collateral and independent proof that the teacher had done his duty. That would only be done inindividual exa mination of the scholars. Another fault of the Privy Coun cil grants was its complexity. This arosa from the Govern ment appropriating and paying the grants. The number of people with whom they had to deal was extraordinary. In 1861 the number of schools under inspection was 9,957 ; the number of certificated teachers was 8,698, besides a large number of uneertificated teachers ; the number of pupil teachers was 16,287; the number of Queen's scholars, 2,527 —making altogether a respectable army of 38,331 persons To most of these persons they paid money directly. They paid money to 16,277 pupil teachers, whose salaries varied, beeinning at £lO and increasing by ,E 2 10s. annually, until they reached £2O. They also paid 8,698 certificated teachers, se that the correspondence and payments of the department were exceedingly large and complicated. It was a depart ment of the Government co-opet sting with persons who had a right to the utmost attention and respect, because they came forward voluntarily to contribute their aid. They were not always rxen of business, and their correspondence was not only very large, but sometimes irrelevant. He remem bered an instance where it was desired to apprentice the wife of a schoolmaster, and after a long correspondence the application was refused. The party aggrieved afterwards requested an interview with him (Mr. Lowe!, on which oc casion the whole case was re-stated, and although the origi nal refusal was referred to, the party went home and again reopened the whole question. , There was another point he might mention. They had to take their information as to the fact from parties no doubt very honourable and re spectable, but who were interested in putting the fact in one point of view. Under such circumstances he thought it was excessively desirable that some simplification should be attempted. The present system was eminently destructive to the responsibility of the house. It was one of immense complexity, and the department had the power of saddling this country with very heavy expenses, without the House of Commons knowing anything about it. A few official and technical words might be inserted in a minute without the sul jectbeing properly discussed. It was an indispensable condition to a permanent system of education that Parlia ment should have the fullest control over it, and that could not be obtained without very great simplification of the pre sent machinery. On the other band, there was no doubt that this system of complexity was intended, and did ope rate in the first instance, as a protection to the public. He thought, therefore, it would be very wrong to do away with all the present safeguards without providing the public with some sort of equivalent. No doubt the proper per son to be responsible to the Committee of Privy Council should in each case be the manager of the school. But even then, how could they secure that the money was spent for the purpose for which it was given ? The ma nagers were a fluctuating and changing body, and the department might find itself dealing with persons by no means worthy of confidence. He should not feel justified in proposing that public money should be paid over to the managers of the schools without some guarantee that it would be properly applied. He could, however, suggestno other remedy than that suggested before, They could not track the application of the money after it was once paid over to the managers, but they might satisfy themselves that it must have been on the whole well applied, by in troducing examination as a check. (Bear, hear.) The commissioners reported that even in the best schools only one-fourth of the children attained the highest class, and they also reported that the schools had not yet succeeded in educating to any considerable extent the bulk of the children who had passed through them. This was a strange and startling statement, and he must also fairly state to the house, the inspectors reported that in 90 schools reading, writing, and arithmetic were taught ex cellently and well. The two reports at first sight might seem to be utterly at variance, but it must not be forgotten that the commissioners had the report of the inspector s before them when they came to their conclusion. The two statements might possibly be reconciled without throwing any imputation upon the inspectors. The fact was, that the object of the present system, as Rail Russell had said, was to set up a type or model of education, and therefore the quality of the education and the quality of the teacher were the principal objects regarded in all the established schools. The inspectors, no doubt, properly reported on the qualifi cations of the teachers ; but they had not said that although reading, writing, and arithmetic were excellently well taught they were equally well learnt, When, however, they came to a permanent system, quantity was what they must more look to. He had come to the conclusion that inspection, as opposed to examination, was not, and never could be, a suf ficient test of the efficiency of a school. It would detect gross errors, it would give valuable advice and as sistance in many ways, and be of great use, but it was not calculated to test in a crucial manner the efficiency of a school. According to the minute of the Privy Council, examination was part of the inspection, but it bad never been carried out by all the inspectors. The fact was there was a distinct conflict between the commissioners and the inspectors, which it was difficult to reconcile except in the manner he had suggested. Another objection to the reports of the inspectors was their use of abstract phrases as to the efficiency of schools. They dealt with the abstract instead of the concrete. Ihe inspectors gave a general no tion as to the schools, but they treated them as something distinct from the scholars. They failed in giving any pre cise information. They examined a few children and made their report, which was doubtless a very true report as to quality, but not as to quantity. Their reports were full of such phrases as " the average proficiency of the children," " the general efficiency," " the decided tendency," " the impression on the whole," "a general review." They spoke of impalpable essences, such as " the m oral atmosphere," and tone of the school, and mental condition, not of the children, but of the school in the abstract. However valuable this might be, it was no test of the inspector's opinion of the efficiency of the teacher, pro nounced after a long and careful examination. The real truth was, the quality of education depended upon the mind of the niaster—the quantity of education depended upon the amount of labou r g i ven b y the master. What had been obtained was the qintlinc..tions of the master, what had not been obtained was the amount of his labour. Inspection had failed to ascertain that point, and if con ducted on the same principle it always would fail. He was now investigating, rs well as he could, if there be an anta gonism Letwet n the commissioners and the inspectors, which was right. He felt confirmed in his views that the commissioners were right by the tone of the controversy last ye r. Supposing that 90 per cent. of the children had been properly educated, one would have supposed that the language which would have been held by those interested in schools would have been, ex amination was superfluous, for the schools would bear any teat; but instead of that the language held was, that examination was ruinous. One gentleman of great authority had devised this theory, that the first generation of children in schools inherited a physical incapacity to learn —that in fact unless their fathers had teen taught to read, write, and cypher, it would be impossible for them to learn —that merely mechanical results must follow a moral and religious training. Had that dictum been known to Dio genese he might have saved himself the trouble of light ing his lamp in his search after an honest man, for he would only have had to catch the first man who could read, write, and cypher, and then he would have got him. (Laughter.) Tht re was a town in England, the name of which he would not mention, in which there were two schools, and each received a grant of £240 a year. The one was strongly in favour of the revised code, being satisfied that after all deductions, it would get £350. The other was as strongly against the revised code, being satisfied that, a'tet all deductions, it would get only £ l l5. lie quoted these examples to show how little the report of the inspectors gave a efficiency really precise or definite notion of the of the teaching in the schools. The fact was, if they meant to make the sy s t em permanent, they must make up their mi n d s en what principle they were to go. ' What was the object of ins i• pleasant—to 'give : h am ? Was it simply to make things putee:tt independent as much as could be got out of ho public they in eat nest? Did of their efficiency ? Were l st Tea n that the grants should not be only subsidies and This pas the la but fruitful of good to the uttn. , st extent (laearonlaly question-were they for t fficier cy or subsidy be relieved because it was bad,goa "T.) Was a school to go o d dd therefore oi poor, or be cause it was efficient and in lie the r sts—he this. Here thought there could be nothin g a sis r e e r li t tn ha s n t " ce s ? there were two champions in would say nothing of his own department, except that he would take the liberty of observing that the report of -the commis sioners made the situa tion of Lord G ranville and himself absolutely unto noble , fo r the y felt that they could not sit still in the face of the report without showing the house and the country that they had dcne all in their power to remedy this state cf things. They found the commis eioner- asserting one thing and the inspectors asserting ens _ then The commissioners said that only ore-fourth of the c hild re n were prop( rly instructed, whi l e the ins p e c t ors con tended that sells were ether excellently or fairly taught. The del al 1 111 a t of education had to judge between What honest man the two. What te ns it to do ? should— not to leave this matter under a cloud of uncertainty. His department bad said they would RE peal to facts, and not going rats° , ing a p r iori, they would go to the schools and examine the children chind by child, t,-,d then they would know whether the commissioners on the inssecte ns were right. (Hear, hear.) If the inspectors were right the de partment would have been vindicated, and would have car p d a great point ; if they were wrong a great evil would have been remedied. He had no doubt the commissioners were right, judging from their authority, and the enormous amount of confirmation they bad received from the admis sion made by all eontroversialists on this question, who de . dared they would not submit to any such crucial test as examination. They had said, issue a circular to the in spectors. But it would be trifling with the house to suppose it would have the desired effect. He believed they must en list the human passions, that they must enlist hope and fear to do the work for them—that they must hold the prospect of sufficient remuneration if their children were properly taught, and of loss if not. He would now proceed to the question of expense. Ho held that whatever they decided upon the question of education, they must also decide upon the question of expense. It was no duty of his to starve any system which the House of Commons supported, It was their duty to carry out a proper system of education, and at the same time although they could not control a large ex penditure, that there should be no extravagance. They should see that the public obtained an equivalent for their expenditure, and that there was no inequality in the grants. He had taken a book of 250 schools taking grants. The children of these schools were supposed to receive 10s; a-head, that being considered a fair sum for each child to earn. He had taken the first twelve cases in which the grants were highest. The first school was receiving from the public purse, instead of 10s. for each child, £1 3s. 4d. ; the second, El 7s. 6d. ; and the others various sums down to 195., being nearly double the amount the commissioners thought each child ought to be paid, He took another book : the first case gave £1 Bs. 11d. ; the next, £1 7s. sd. ; and so on, down to the lowest, 18s. 91 It seemed to him that that was a very serious question. When they were told that any change in the grant must diminish the assistance given to the schools, they were never told what the actual amount of that assist ance was. The fact was a great many schools were receiv ing under the system a great deal more than they were entit ed to, and no system was entitled to support which did not make provision for remedying that inequality. There were three sources of expenditure which went to make up the income of a school. The first was the sub scriptions of charitable persons, the second was the school-pence given by the parents, and the third was the grant from the council. It was sup posed that the council only gave a third of the sub scriptions, but the fact was that the subscriptions given by the managers of the schools and the grants of the council were exactly equal, being lls. 6d. each. But if they took into account the training colleges and other matters, the grant from the council became 15s. fid. as against Ils. 6d. subscription, or in the proportion of four to three. They found that the capitation grant was often wasted, and people did not know what to do with it. It seemed imoroper that the council should pay the whole salary of the pupil teachers when they professed to encourage voluntary efforts, and yet that amounted to £300,000. They, moreover, thus en couraged the employment of pupil teachers in preference to others, and that seemed to be extravagance. The grant to the masters was another instance of the extravagance of the system. They paid the augmentation grant to the masters, and putting the minimum at £l5, a case which never arose, yet the grant was always paid. He re received £3O augmentation grant, £l5 for teaching pupil teachers, £5 for teaching them drawing, £3 for teaching drawing to the scholars, and £5 for teach ing Welsh and Gaelic to the pupil teachers—in all £5B, This aid was given in its most expensive and indiscri minate form. There was another point which he would wish to criticise. The commissioners reported that the whole sys tem of education had been devised prior to experiment, and that it did not meet the existing state of things. The system was settled on the supposed age of the pupils, and they had assumed a supposed state of attendance which did not exist. In the average of schools 70 per cent. of the children were under 10, 20 per cent, under 11 years of age, and 11 per cent. under 12 years of age. The result was that a great propos tion of the children left school at or before 11 years of age; 89 per cent. of those who left school were under 12 years of age, 70 per cent, under 10 years, and 80 per cent, under 11 years. When the house was estimating what establishment it would keep up they mustbear in mind that they were making arrangements for the education of the children of the very poorest classes—those who lived by their labour, and of those children 70 per cent, left school under 10 years, and 80 per cent. under 11 years of age. That fact had been overlooked in the whole controversy. This state of things had grown worse instead of :better, and it was for children who left school at this early age that the state provided a long array of 16,000 certificated teachers, advanced books, and well got up maps. The children who remained at the schools after 12 years of age, and who received the benefit, were not of the very poorest class, for whom this system was specially intended , He ventured to say it was their duty not to interfere by their philanthropy with the parent in the edu cation of his child—(hear, hear)—but to endeavour, while the child remained at school, to make its education as com plete as possible—to get the child to go to school at an early age—to provide for its regular attendance—to spread edu cation as wide as possible, and what they could not thus effect to supplement by a really efficient system of evening schools, which would afford the opportunity of recovering lost ground. He now came to another point. He had shown that they were in communication with some 38,300 persons, all of whom, in some way or other, received money from the Government, and between these people and the Government a kind of golden bond was established which they seemed to think was indissoluble. We had no right to blame them. It always had been so, and always would be so. If the Government was improvident to make such an arrangement with so large a body of persons, they bad only themselves to thank for it. The managers of schools felt that they had subscribed their money and given their time and trouble in founding the schools, and had done all this relying on a certain amount of Government support, and they felt, and no wonder, that it would be a great hardship on them if that support were not continued. Then the same thing applied to teachers, pupil-teachers, and training colleges. As to training colleges, the managers considered that every part of the system should be kept up in its integrity, in order that there might be a sufficient number of young men in the colleges. These feelings were not unnatural. Government had ;created them; but he wished to point out that such a state of things might bring about most disastrous results, and that, like Pope's Atossa, they would find themselves "by the means defeated in the end," and that, instead of the grant being a grant for na tional education, it would become a grant for sustaining vested interests in the existing machinery of education, and that ministers, finding the fearful opposition they would have to encounter from such a phalanx in any attempt to divert the grant to its original object, they would relinquish the attempt altogether, and no government would be found bold enough to face the opposition they would meet with. Now they felt that it was necessary to deal with this sub ject as soon as possible. They waited three years while the commissioners were deliberating. The reason they wore anxious to deal with the subject was the increasing number of the claimants. They felt that such a state of things would arise that it was necessary to deal with the subject at once, it being foreseen that if the house did not upon the earnest representation of the committee put a stop to the evil, all control over the distribution of the ' grant would pass out of the hands of the Privy C oun cil and of P ar li ament into the hands of those who were working the sys t em, while any demand that the latter chose to make upon the minister would bo supported by such an army of stipenliaries that no minister would be found courageous enough to withstand it. Such a state of things would be mo-t dangerous and unconstitutioral— b, cause if, on the one hand, a minister obtained ur due in-. flu- Lee over so largo a body of people it would certainly be most unconstitutional; while, on the other hand, if so large a body of men were to possess more influence over the mi nister than he had over them, then, indeed, there would be a Most dangerous assault upon the exchequer, and it would keens° necessary for the taxpayers to be on the alert, (Hear.) Suppose, for instance, that in his present attempt to vindicate the proper principle on which education grants should be made, he were defeated and overthrown, who would dare take up the gauntlet again ; and, if no one did, what prospect was left but a gradual increase of these schools and of the expense, and of the system which every one must condemn ? (Hear, hear.) To show that he was not drawing on his imagination, he would read an extract froin a publication, issued by a society of schoolmasters. The right hon. gentleman then read an article from the publication in question. It stated that the revised code, if carried into operation, would lower the social status of schoolmasters, and that in no other profession would an attempt be made to affect them without the concurrence and advice of the members of the profession themselves. That was they wished the Government to consult them whether they were to reduce their advantages or not, which was very much like Turgot asking the chickens with what sauce they would like to be eaten. (Laughter.) The ar ticle proceeded to say that constant persevering and united action were required before this could be remedied. One would think that one was reading a manifesto of the anti-corn law league. It proceeded to say that if they did not now exert themselves they would deserve all the indignity that could be 1 eaped upon them, and it urged upon teachers the necessity for immediate action, and that they should take . advantage of the present state of the political atmosphere by letting members of Parliament understand that there were 9.000 teachers who possessed the elective franchise, and that if members wished for their votes they must refuse to support the re lised code. He (Mr, Lowe) thought:it was high time to look into this matter, especially when he compared the language used with the claims preerred. For instance, he found a gentleman of high authority writing to a newspaper that the teachers "had a right to expect a certain amount of repose and freedom from anxiety," and that "they ought not to be worried by examination," nor " worked like horses in a g in, " nor "victimised by additional drudgery," which was described as a kind of "sneer," at their present position. lie (Mr. Lowe) wis bed it to be particularly understood na claimsal that t h ose mh thatNviii sucht r alth oug h he could not help smiling at the manner in e L u means wrongeda ns in Sc their e shouldendeavour re advanced, , l h t e h did s n ele not ed o consider it at r about oet em un to avert the wrong by all everyt power, political or otherwise, but he could not h e l p, at ther tem under whi c h persons same ti me , o b serv i ng th a t a sys thsissbhoould be placed in the position evidently occupied by Parliament would do wisely i dy of persons, was one which hear.) He looked upon it that putting an end to. (Hear, att u h t i t s was one of the results of the system that was not for eseen, would distinctly understand that thoughe h h op e ed the house might with any at some of these expressions, he was not speaking disrespect to this body of men, who were (may doing what any men placed in such a position were sure to do. If anybody was to blame in the matter, it was those who had put them in that position. Until this system of enormous creation of vested interests was put an end to, he maintained that the educational vote would never be under the control of Par liament. (Hear, hear.) There was one other matter, and that was that the object of this vote vas undoubtedly to call forth voluntary c ffort. In one case it had succeeded ; it had raised a good deal of money, but he was afraid that that money had been raised mainly from a class who could ill spare it—namely, from clergymen. (Hear, hear.) He could only say with Caesar, who, when traversing the field of Pharsalia, and seeing the dead bodies of his soldiers, exclaimed, " Hoc volerunt." He believed that the grants hitherto made, instead of calling forth, had crippled, and in fact, almost extinguished, voluntary energy. They had in fact been uneducating the public mind from the voluntary system, and that evil, he feared, they could not hope much ' to diminish. The house, he thought, would be surprised o learn that the training colleges, which had undoubtedly been established with the Lest of motives, were almost en tirely supported by the Government. No less than 99 per cent. of the cost of that at Cheltenham was defrayed by Go vernment, and the proportion that the Government paid towards the support of the training colleges was on an ave rage 90 per cent. He believed it was impossible again to raise the voluntary spirit, There used to be a jealousy of Privy Council grants, but that had quite gone, and had not been seen for some years. It wasremarkable, also, that those w. o had founded the schools, at great personal sacrifices, for the purposes of education were the most opposed to anything like a test being applied to them, so that, if conducted on right principles, they might be confirmed in their course, but if in error, that that course might be amended. The op posite would naturally have been expected, but he was sorry to say that the dislike to any such test was most violent, probably because they felt the voluntary spirit had sunk so low that they had nothing to hope from it, and that the re sult of the examination might be to withdraw something they could very ill spare. As ho had already said, he thought it impossible again to raise the voluntary spirit, and that being so, he thought it became the duty 4 the Government to see whether they could not adopt some course which would dispense with the necessity for its re suscitation, and whether they could not make the grant de pend on something which would be evidence that a good education was given. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the i commissioners that it would not be wise to interfere with the denominational basis of the system, with its religious foundation, and with the right of each sect to control its own religious teaching. He also thought that the annual grants should be abolished, and replaced by a uniform capi • tation grant. This was, in fact, the turning point of the question, for he saw no other means, of getting rid of tho evils he had described. The next question was, how far they could agree with what the commissioners prof osed. The commissioners proposed - a grant from the county rate on examination, and a grant from the central government for attendance merely. But the Privy Council could not agree to the county rate being charged. There was an evil and a good connected with the system of charging local rates for such purposes ; the evil being that a national bur den was thrown on a narrow area, and the good being that it secured local management and supervision. But the pro position of the committee contrived to retain the evil and to dispense with the good ; for, if accepted, the country gentlemen would have no authority over the expenditure, but all they could do was to appoint a committee of educa• tion ; that committee was to appoint examiners, these exa miners were to examine, and on the result of the examina tion the county rates were to be charged. He did not think the country gentlemen would be likely to accept this merely ministerial office. Then, if the capitation grant was to be paid from a central E ffice, the question arose on what terms it was to be paid. The commissioners recommended that part of it should be paid for the attendance cf the chil dren on the inspector's report, and part upon the result of the examination. The objection, however, to that was that it would not answer the purpose in view, which was to increase the quantum of education, and not the quality. They wished to bring as many children out of 3 every hun dred under education as possible. The result of this pro posal of the commissioners would be that one-half would be received almost as a matter of course, and the other half would probably be earned by the head classes of the school. It the Privy Council had adopted this plan they might have conciliated support, but thry would have de feated their object. To show that this was not a mere fancy of his own he referred to a letter which had been written to the editor a newspaper. The writer, in a transport of in dignation, asked whether it could bo supposed that the Privy Council intended to bring about a result which would, in fact, be a withdrawal of all assistance from many schools; and then, as a proof that such would be the result, referred to one of the national schools, in which, upen an examina tion, the inspector found that even in the highest class only three could read or write, and none could cipher. He (Mr. Lowe) considered that the principle by which the grant should be governed should be a jealous and an engrossing principle, providing that the grant should only be made where the school had fulfilled all the conditions necessary to success, and implying the excellence of the school. It had therefore been decided that there should be one grant only, and that that grant should be based upon the test of examination alone. The examination must prove an ex pensive and a troublesome process, and if the public were saddled with that, it had a right to the fullest benefit that could be got. It was therefore proposed that the grant should be entirely dependent on the efficiency of the pupils in reading, writing, and arithm etie ; that after the 100 at tendances by a pupil, the school should receive Id. for each of his subsequent attendances, and that this sum should be ) reduced one-third if a scholar failed upon examination in reading, one-third if he failed in writing, and one-third if he failed in arithmetic. They had also made rules respect ing ventilation, lighting, &c., and provided penalties wher ever there were 30 pupils without a pupil teacher. That was the substance of the minute,to which was to be added the pro positien for a fourth class of masters, which they had intro duced in order to extend the benefits of thesystem. The pupil teacher would have received only £2O up to the time of his being appoint ed,which ho thought would bee great incentive to good conduct. He now came to a branch of the subject which he thought would be most interesting to the house. He had to inform them that it was not intended for the present to extend the operation of the revised minute to Scotland. (Hear.) Scotland had petitioned against any interference at the present moment, and Scotland had many claims for an attentive hearing. She had an educational organisation 209 years old, and expected soon to devise a satisfactory system for herself. (Hear.) With respect to infants, it had been represented to them that it would be straining their principle of examination too much to extee el it to infants under six years old—(a laugh)—in fact there was such a concurrence of opinion opposed to them en that point, that all he could do was frankly to confess that he had teen wrong in proposing that arrangement. (Hear.) It was good that every encouragement should be given to the attendance of infants at school, and for that reason it was not proposed to require examination. Ho did not put the change as a concession, but as the confession of an error. (Hear.) They proposed to make infants entitled to the capitation grant without examination. They pro posed that the schoolmaster should receive a penny for each infant after 200 attendances. Another sub jec' they had to consider was the training colleges. Properly speaking, these institutions should be voluntary ; but the fact was, that in most cases the Government contributed 90, and in one case 99 per cent, to their support. They asked the managers for increased subscriptions, by withdrawing the lecturers in geography and some other i übjects, and by giving up one-fourth of the Queen's scholars. He thought that their position on this point was impregnable, but it had been represented that these colleges were in a position of very great difficulty, and therefore, deeming that the whole question of the training colleges would require re consideration, they thought it better to leave the training colleges as they stood. (Hear.) They recalled, therefore, the propositions respecting the Queen's scholars and the reduction of the lectureship. They had also withdrawn the proposition requiring IG days' attendance from the children in the month immediately preceding examination. The next point was the forfeitures arising from the absence of pupil teachers. He proposed now that the I limit should be one to 40 children instead of 30, and of 80 instead of 60. They proposed to give a honorary certificate after two years in the training schools, and he thought the possession of that certificate should give them a preference when seeking employment as teachers. A proposition which had created a great deal of discussion was the age at which children were to leave the elementary schools. If they left at 11 and were eligible for the evening schools until 13, a 1 whole year was lost, and therefore they proposed that the ch 1d should enter the evening school at 12 instead of 13. They did this because the child attending the evening school might be earning money for its parents. These were I the amendments they proposed, which they expectedwould considerably increase the receipts under the grant, and as in their case the amount would not depend on examination, . these infants would be so many " Little Treasures" to the manager. (Laughter.) The * first of the objections to the minute was, that the religious basis of the schools was not sufficiently insisted on,and that the inspectors onlyinquired respecting children in the ca , o of members of the Church of England. Now this arose from a misunderstanding of the inspector's functions. He was in fact a servant of the Arch bishop of Canterbury as well as of the Privy Council, and it was in the former capacity that ho inquired into the re ligious question. He made no report to the Council on that subject. Another objection was, that they were drawing toe sharp a line between secular and religious instruction. The Privy Council assisted all denominations, from the Roman Catholics, who might be considered as atone pole of the re ligious world, to the Jews, who were at the other. It was not t be expected it would interfere with all these reli gions, and this sharp lino was merely drawn because in the case of the Church of England the inspector acted in a double capacity. He thought that there need not be a sharp line between religion, anal reading, writing, and arithme tic. There were some intervening points that might bo cut out, and he would boldly add that there was a por tion of the religious instruction that might he taken away. He meant those portions of Scripture history, such as dates and the names of kings, which merely burthened the memory, and was of no value in religious teaching. (Hear, hear.) He thought it was taking a narrow view of the ques tion to say that there was any oprosition between religion and the acquirement of facility in reading, writing, and arithmetic. Ile c , uld uncicrstind how the boy taught to read in infancy would turn to his Bible in after years, and n a similar "way:would avail himself of his writing facilities With respect to the religious safeguards, the diocesan com mittee of Exeter had testified that they were as strong on the mind as in the old code. It could not lie too often re peated that the amount of the aid did not entirely depend upon the proficiency of the scholars in reading, writing, and arithmetic; but even assuming that additiocal responsibi lity would be thrown upon the managers of church schools, those gentlemen ought not to shrink from assuming it; for nothing could be worse than for the Church to show itself reluctant or incompetent to discharge the office of training up the children of this country in " the nurture and admo nition of the Lord." However, it was proposed to aster the form of the minute so that no school should receive assist ance till it had been reported on by the inspector ; that the inspector should not examine school till he was satisfied that there was nothing in the state of that school which re quired the grant to be withheld ; and that the power of with • drawing the grant should extend to faults of religious in struction in Church of England schools—to which alone this question belonged. He now came to the question of the loss which schools would sustain by the new code. That loss, he considered, had been very erroneously computed. The plan generally adopted was to take a particular school, to estimate %% hat the children in it would earn if the revised code we re adopted, that estimate being seldom made in a very friendly spirit ; and then to assume that the difference between that sum and the existing grant was the measure, of that school's loss. Now, in the first place, it, was quite true that some schools would not receive so much as here tofore, and it was intended that they should not, for they at present receivsd a great deal more than they ought to do, It had been argued that, as the commissioners considered that three-fifths of the children would earn the grant, they by implication inferred that the remaining two-fifths would not, and that thus the grants would be reduced by two fifths. But that reasoning was inconclusive, because, in the first place, one of those twc-fifths would include the children who attended less than 50 days, and who thereflre earned nothing; and the other fifth would include those who, attending between 50 and 100 days, would earn very little, so that the loss on account of the two-fifths who, it was estimated, would not earn anything would in sea :11y be very little. (Hear.) It was impossible for him to calcu late how much the schools would receive, but there were certain data which he would mention, and from which every gentleman might draw his own deductions. His be lief was, that at the date when the minute would come into operation, viz., the 31st of March, 1863, there would be a million children in their schools. The maximum which could be earned by these children would be 15s. a head, or £75 1 ,000 ; what the Government wished them to earn was 10s. a head on the average. At present the number who attended long enough to receive the capitation grant was 42 per cent.—in other words 42 per cent. attended on more than 176 of the 220 days on which the school was opened in each year; and surely by the 17 per cent. who formed the difference between the 42 per cent, and the 25 per cent. who the commis Toners say were well instructed, the grant might with moderate diligence be secured. (Hear, hear.) Again, the children who attended upwards of AO days were 63.7 per cent., and the commissioners were of opinion that besides moral instruction, all those might-be taught to read and write, and to perform such arithmetical operatips as were required in ordinary life. If so, there was a still larger margin—namely, between the 25 per cent, of the already well-instructed and this 63.7 per cent.—by whom the grant might be earned. The utmost sum which a child could earn if it attended twice every day the school was open, namely 440 times, would be £1 Bs. 4cl. ; and the sum that might be earned by attending twice in 176 days was £1 Is. ; while that which might be earned by an infant would vary between one penny and one pound. Thefailures would, of course, generally be amongst the children who paid least ; for, of course, if any were rejected it would probably be those who attended the shortest time. If a child who had attended 101 times was rejected, the loss would only be a penny, whereas it it had attended the whol 440 titees it would have been £1 Bs. 4d. It should be remembered that all these calculations as to the effect of the new code were based upon the existing state of attendance, whereas it was hoped and expected that the code would itself supply a great stimulus to better attendance. At present the child who went to school 176 days in the year earned 55., and there was no pecuniary inducement for him to attend oftener, but the new code would supply a steady and regular pressure on him to go as often as possible. Mr. Scott, one of the most intelligent witnesses examined by the commissioners, stated that the effect of the c .pitation grant had been to make the managers of schools go round to the parents and canvass them for scholars, and therewas reason to hope that the new code would act in exactly the same way towards improving the regularity of attendance. They might also hope that it would tend to greater eccnomy of management by the greater freedom of contract which it would give the ma nagers in dealing with their servants, with whom they would be able to make their own bargains. No doubt cases had been urged which they would vary much have wished, if it had been possible, to consider. It had been said, for instance, that a school which might do very little in the way of actual teaching, might be the means of much moral good to a neighbourhood. That was quite true ; and such schools were very fitting objects of missionary exertions ; but they were not fitting objects for assistance from the Committee of the Privy Council. Sunday schools conferred a great moral good upon the community ; but no ono had ever pro posed that they should be helped by the state ; and it had only last year been determined to grant no further relief to ragged schools. (Hear.) The new code could not in any case conic into operation for a year and a quarter, and in some instances it had not come into operation for a year longer. There would therefore be ample time to prepare for the change; and from the moment it was known that the scheme had been adopted, there would doubtless bo an increase of efficiency over what would be the case if the schools were to be examined to-morrow, But they were told that there were schools where the children were migra tory, and where it would be very difficult for them to earn the grant. He admitted that such was the case, but the question was whether these were the schools to which the code ought to apply ? Whether, in fact, the State ought to be called upon to provide an expensive machinery for those who would not take the trouble to attend ?-(Cheers.) They had a right to expect that the working classes, for whom they did so much, should second the exertions which the State and which benevolent persons made on behalf of their offspring. (Hear.) The cost of educating a child was 30s. a year; and of that the parent only paid 75., while the Go vernment and the managers each contributed Ils. 6d. It was too much then to expect them to contribu' e to a school if the parents were not able to meet them half way, though he was quite willing to admit that cases of this kind showed he harshness which was inseparable from the operation of general rules. He should be glad if they were able both to help schools because they were efficient, and to help schools because they were Decay. But if they had two systems the whole time of the department would be frittered away in settling in which class each particular scho :1 should be placed. On the other hand, if they were to have only one system, would they lower the standard so as to degrade the whole fabric in order that they might aid a few special cases ? He could not promise that the revised code should be either economical or efficient. The present system, how ever, was neither ; whereas he could promise them that the new one should be either the one thing or the other. If it was not efficient it would at all events be cheap, and if it was not cheap it would be efficient. (Loud cheers.) He could put it no higher than that. If it was a Government system of education ho could force the people to avail themselves of it ; but as it was a voluntary one it rested with the work. ing classes to say whether they would accept the induce ments which it held out to them to send their children to school. He now came to the question of vested interests. Although it was argued in the abstract that those interests should be maintained, there was hardly a pamphlet that had been written on the subject which didnot propose some sweeping infraction of them. For example, it had been gravely proposed to transfer the whole burden from the public to the school managers. It had always been admitted that the present system was a tentative and experimental one, and while, therefore, justice ought undoubtedly to be done, no one had a right to ccmplain of any change that might be introduced with a single view to the interests of education and the public good. But the question of vested interests had been chiefly discussed in reference to the pub lic teachers—probably on account of the large number of persons who were concerned—otherwise he did not see why their case should be more debated than the grants for draw ing or Welsh. Talking about Welsh, he had heard of rather a tragical case, in which a person complained that his school would gain no grant, because the position of the schoolmaster was similar to that of Hotspur : " This is the deadly spite that angers me ; My wife can speak no English, I n' Welsh." The master could not understand the pupils, or the pupils the master; and so the ached earned no money. (Laughter.) The position of the masters, as described by the commis sioners, was that of persons taken out of a rank of life where they would naturally have been set to learn a mechanical trade, educated at the public expense, and put into a position where they received about £lOO a year for seven hours and a half of work per diem on four days a week, with six or seven weeks vacation every year. Mr. Wilkinson, the assistant commissioner for the metropolitan district, stated that the masters in London earned £122 a year; but that they were generally very much discontented with their lot. They complained that their remuneration was inade quate, and that they were not sufficiently appreciated. The church masters' grievance was that their schools wore on the ono hand often spoilt by the interference of the clergy, and that on the other if they were successful the clergyman claimed all the credit. The British masters also complained of the lowness of pay, but they ware free from priestly tyranny. Ths result in both cases, however, was that the most talented men retired as quickly as they could from the profession. Such was Mr. Wilkinson's account ; but it could not be denied that the position of the masters had hitherto been one of great prosperity ; and if they were so discontented under the present system, it was not won derful that they should find fault with the revised code. As Mr. Robinson said, they too often forgot that it was the cul ture they had received at the public expense that had made them what they were. He hoped that the house would not be too violently worked upon by their complaints. No doubt they ought to have justice done to them ; but it must not be forgotten that they found elements of discontent even in the system which was now in operation. Their argument was, that so long as they performed the conditions which Were annexed to the grant, they were as much entitled to the augmentation as an officer in the army or the navy was to his pay. The teachers were not quite right in saying that the grant depended upon their fulfilment of the conditions required by the Privy Council. The grant was given to them for the purpefies of the distribution of the grant to the pupils, but it was not necessarily upon their fulfilment of all the conditions annexed to it that it depended, for it might be lost to them by the misconduct of the managers, for which they could be in no way responsible, and over which they had no control. If, for instance, the manager gave no return to the Committee of Connell that he employed the teacher, if the repairs of the building were so neglected as to bring down an unfavourable report from the government inspector, or supposing the manager refused to receive the Visits of the inspector—upon any one of these grounds the grant might be lost to the teacher, though he had nothing to do with the misconduct which led to its Withdrawal, This showed that the teachers put their claim too high in this matter, for that could not be their property which could be taken from them without any fault of theirs, and he thought that a precise claim for a particular sum of money could not be supported. Let the house consider, if it were necessary that they should compensate the teachers for the loss of the grant upon its withdrawal, what compensation could they award ? And that was a question that they must answer if they considered that they had in this case a vested interest to deal with. These teachers had no doubt a fair claim to every consideration that could be extended to them consistently with what was due to the public, but the truth was that their salaries had risen front the causes he had already mentioned, and if that rise had c ccurred contem poraneously with the augmenta ion grants, it was not, as was supposed, the augmentation grants to which the rise was owing. The actual cause of the increase was that the demand for schoolmasters had far exceeded the supply, and it was not unnatural that those who shared the benefits of that circumstance should suppose the rise in their salaries to be consequent upon the augmentation. The salaries of schoolmasters were measured cf course by the conditions of supply and demand, and if a certain qualification was re quired and the demand exceeded the supply, that qualifica tion must necessarily increase in value. But what the government did in the matter was to pay the schoolmaster a Certain portion of his salary ; and although in making the contract between the manager and the teacher all the cir cumstances affecting the salary were necessarily taken into consideration, the government did no more than did the managers in paying the salaries of the teachers, and if that aid were withdrawn the loss would be in fact the managers' and not the teachers'. And it must also be observed that in this code the teachers received a very considerable in demnification. It was urged that this money was with drawn from them never to appear tiny more, but it was given again in the capitation grants, and was only placed more directly under the control of the managers, and thus by placing a large sum in the hands of the mana gers, and encouraging the extension of the schools, the government provided a plan which in some way tended to increase the salary of the schoolmaster, while it pre served the market for him. lie thought upon the whole that the class, though it was excusable and natural that they should feel very sensitive when their salaries were concerned, and should put the worst construction upon the proposition of the Government, had, upon the rational and sound view of the subject, no claim whatever to be consi dered as having a vested interest in the grant. It might be said, why should the Government embarrass themselves with a question of this nature—why should they not pay the augmentation to the present schoolmasters till they were worked out, and so save unpleasant disunion? Such a pro position was most tempting, but there were reasons why he could not recommend such a course. Suppose that they were to preserve the interest claimed by existing school masters, but not allow the same advantages to persons coming in after a certain day. Let them consider what in justice would be done by following that course. A master who had been in the service before the new regulation came into operation, being entitled to MO a year, while a new teacher coming in would have no title to such bounty, would have the effect of shutting the profession against young men and sacrificing its hopes and prospects to the interests of the present members. The claim of the schoolmasters was of a twofold character :—They claimed the payment of so much a year upon their certificates, and they claimed the condition annexed to the payment, namely, that the manager should allow them twice the amount of their claim. He had shown reasons why they should not re ceive the augmentation in specie, but he was willing to give them a lien upon the capitation grants, and to enforce the condition that they should receive from the manager twice the amount of the augmentation. It was said that the proposal of the Government was degrading education; but the truth was that they fixed not a maximum of learn ing, but a minimum. What they said was, that no child should earn a grant unless able to read, write, and cypher, but they had no objection to any amount of learning be yond that being imparted, and he thought that, so far from degrading education, a system which required labour and industry at an early period of life was calculated to elevate the character of the education of the country. The object of the Government was to afford such an education as might fit the pupil for the position in life to which be might be called, and he thought no system could be worse than that which would have the effect of making every man discontentel with his situation. His idea was that the Government were bound to consider the requirements of the class they had to instruct and the education they were capable of receiving, and then to base the grant in aid upon the result of that examination. It was said that they were sacrificing the pupil teacher to the evening school, and no doubt they permitted the master to instruct the pupil teacher in the evening school with the other pupils, but was not the loss of the evening schools a heavy price to pay for a little batter instruction to the pupil teacher ? The pupil teackr would have to pass an examination, and the master oftlfi school, to satisfy his managers, must find the means of qualifying the pupil teacher for that examination, and there was no reason why he should not do so in the evening schools. The great difficulty under which the evening schools laboured was that of finding masters, and the want could only be supplied by taking them from the day schools, which was to be accom plished only by relieving them from the duty now forced upon them upon devoting their attention at certain times ex clusively to the pupil teachers. With regard to the group ing of ages, the outcry which hal been raised against the proposition of the Government was upon a misunderstand ing of what was meant by a classification or examination in class. The examination was intended to be an indvidual examination, but what was intended to be implied was that it should take place according to age. The instruct'on was not required to be according to age; but unless some such principle were adopted in the examinations, there would be the difficultyaef finding an alternative which would not in volve a fatal interference in the management of the schools. He never prete Aled to lay a scheme before the house which was free from objection, but he maintained that although it might be open to some objection that was no reason why it should not be adopted. He would shortly point out the advantages of his scheme. In the first place, it dealt with individuals and not with classes, and it gave the managers almost entire freedom in regulating their schools as they pleased. It would also make the interest •of the school identical with the interest of the public, and test the work done, and give all parties concerned the means of appreciat ing each other's merits. Above all, it would for the first time place this grant under the control of Parliament. Such was the case which he now laid before the house. He hoped ho ha shown there were circumstances in the exist ing system of education which unfitted it to be the perma nent system of this country, and that they were bound to adopt a test definite, clear, and precise, by which the public might know on what principles the education of the coun try was conducted. He had shown the impossibility of persons in the position of the Government remaining quiet. The difficulty had been forced upon the Government, and they had endeavoured to discharge their duty to the best of their ability, and he therefore now humbly submitted all these matters to the consideration of the house. (Cheers.) Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, after the ample exposkion of the right lion, gentleman I wish to recall the house to the due and proper relation which it bears to this statement, and the course which ought to be taken in - consequence of its being made. Sir, this statement is one which ought to have preceded the introduction of the revised code, If it had, what would have been the course for Parliament to have followed ? He apprehended it would have followed the course it always pursues when a Minister of the Crcwn makes an important statement in respect to his department, and does not feel it convenient on that occasion immedi ately to discuss its merits. It is obvious, under any circum stances, that a subject of this kind—involving principles so important and details so multifarieus—requires a due and ample consideration. I am therefore somewhat surprised, considering the peculiar circumstances under which the re vised cede was arrested in its progress, that the right honourable gentleman did not intimate to us when he in tends to call upon the house for an opinion on the project of the Government. But the right honourable gentleman says that the present case differs from the usual course of affairs, because the house and the country have been in possession for - some considerable period of the scheme. Let us see if there is any justice in that observation. In the fist place the house has a right always to receive apersonal explanation from a Minister of any scheme before them. Although I think that a suffi .;ient reason why an interval should elapse before the house gives an opinion on a scheme, and although I deprecate discussion at this moment—for I know that hasty conclusions often follow desultory discus sions which the house afterwards regrets—in the present case there is another consideration which we can not over leek, because we have not only a revised code brought before us, but the revision of a revised code, (Laughter.) There fore I hope I am not misinterpreting the feelings of hon. gentlemen on both sides when I conclude there is a general wish there should be no formal discussion—no discussion— to-night upon the masterly exposition of the right hon. gen tleman, but that the right hon. gentleman, or some other member of the Government, would inform the house on what night the opinion of the house on the whole scheme will be taken, (Hear, hear.) I hope due time will be given for its consideration. I do not agree with the tight hon. gentleman that this is a subject of little magnitude, and I do not think that such an observation, coming from a per son in authority, ought to pass unnoticed. It appears tome that this is not a petty subject, but a very great subject, and if I wanted any evidence to prove that, it would be afforded by the speech of the right non gentleman himself, becere . he commenced a series of arguments the whole effect of .lov which was to abrogate the present system of education. That is a great question and ono of the utmost importance. The right hon. gentleman had become acquainted only with the question so far as the House of Commons was concerned, during the palmy de ys of national education and the powers and achievements of the Privy Council-office,_but there were matty hon. gentlemen who remembered w2.len the question was in a very different state—l being one of the m• I cannot but remember the great results the labours of be Privy Council have obtained, tentatively, as the right hoLL gentle man chooses to consider it, and I cannot look at those is'lb°urs without feeling that-in the future history of this country the establishment of our present system of education will b. a great result, which will redound much to the honour of England. The right hen. gentleman seems to wish that Parliament had more control over the Committee of Privy Council ; but the right hon. gentleman forgets that some years ago an office of great honour and authority was esta blished the object of which was that there should be a clear and constitutional connexion between the doings of the Committee of Privy Council and this house, and that that office is now occupied by the right hon. gentleman himself. Though no one would say that the right bon. gentleman had done anything which ho was not entitled to do, yet everybody felt that the Vice-President of the Committee of Council for Education would certainly take no extreme step with ut consulting the House of Commons. Hence the sur prise at the manner in which the revised code was introduced. It was a measure which justified some explanations an the part of the right hon. gentleman. The moment that Parlia ment was prorogued the revised code was published. I will give no opinion at present on the revised code, but all seemed to be agreed that it would create a great revolution. The right hon. gentleman proposes to sweep away the old sys • tern and to substitute a new system of his own. That being so, the house had a right to expect that it would have been introduced to the house before the prorogation. As I believe it was laid on the table when the prorogation was announced it is quite clear that the revised code must have been for some time in one of the despatch boxes of the right hon. gentle man. (Hear.) Is that a constitutional course on the part of the right hon. gentleman, who regrets the househas not sufficient control over the conduct of the Privy Council ? But I will ask this further question. Had the house the slightest reason to expect that the Government were medi tating this change? I remember, in July, when the report of the commissioners was presented to the house, the right hon. gentleman felt it his duty to make same observations on the subject. He described the character of the report of the royal-commissioners, and he gave his ownopinion. The right hon. gentleman said that the commissioners approved of the existing system of education, and he added that the Government themselves-1 am speaking from memory— felt this was a question on which they ought to speak man fully and boldly, and they had no hesitation in saying they adhered to that system. (Hear.) I ask hon. members on both sides of the house whether that was not the impres sion of Parliament. (Hear.) I say nothing in vindication of the existing system, or of the revised code. Then there were the poor laws, and a great opposition was raised against them. That opposition was from a political feeling against having a powerful central authority. There was also great opposition to the reform of the tariff, and that also arose from a political feling that it might interfere with our industries. Now, when the question of education was discussed in this country, and the present national system was brought forward, we had to encounter both political and religious jealousy ; yet the great enthusiasm of the people in its favour overcame this double feeling against it. In 1860 a complete code was laid upon the table of the house. I will not pretend to maintain that there was no necessity for a change in it, and I will not enter upon the discussion of the proposed change to-night, but what I wish to impress upon the house is, that this system of popular education, which. in the course of many years, was with so much moderation, and with so much firmness, supported by the administration of the country and the great enthusiasm of feeling of a large body of the people was established; it was established under greater difficulties than the recon struction of our representative system, the reform of the pauper code, or the commercial tariff, had to encounter, and it produced a not less powerful effect upon the public mind. Now, what should we have thought if the state of the law in this country was such that on a day after the proroga tion of Parliament a minister of the Crown, not liking the Reform Act of 1832, had abrogated it, and introduced a new Reform Act—(hear) —or if the Chief Commissioner of the Poor Laws had erased the whole body of minutes which former commissioners had framed, and had introduced a new code; or what should we have thought of the President of the' Board of Trade rescinding the model tariff, and substituting a new commercial system founded upon the principle of reciprocity ? (Hear.) The house could not reconcile such a system to their minds. Indeed, it was beyond the dream of possibility, and yet we have found that such a course can be pursued in this country in the matter of popular education by the Committee of the Privy Council. (Hear, hear.) Ido not mean to say that the right hon. gentleman's principal—the President of the Committee—has taken any step which was not perfectly legal on his part; yet it is to be regretted that a minister placed in so high a position as the right hon. gentleman should have felt it his duty to take it. (Hear, hear.) 1 think no one will doubt that, whatever may be the or inion formed upon the revised code and the existing system of education, some means should be taken to ensure to Par liament a complete control over the doings of the Commit tee of Privy Council for Education. (Hear, hear.) Though the act of the Government may have been justifiable, yet I cannot conceive an act which essentially could have been more violent or more unwise than that the moment Par liament was prorogued a minister should take the course which the right hon. gentleman did, and abrogate and an nul all the existing minutes which have been in operation for more than a quarter of a century, and give in its place a new minute which, so far as I can collect, was to come into operation without the House of Commons having any control over it. (Hear, hear.) That is a monstrous state of affairs, and one which, if it had been suggested last year, hon. members would have agreed was utterly incre dible. (Hear, hear.) Whether the complaints against the original and the revised code be right or wrong, the school masters have a right to receive the expressions of public gratitude for having resisted this course of violent pro ceeding, and for having taught us our position as regards our control over one of the most important de partments of the State. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, far froni regretting what has taken place, it is with the warmest admiration we should feel that the House of Com mons has found its true position in this respect. I hope the house will not discuss the subject to- night, but will on a future occasion consider it in a spirit as solemn as it .deserves ; and I hope the Government will find it conve nient to give the house some time to consider the subject before they ask for its opinion uponit. (Hear. hear ) Mr. NEWDEGAIE said the r ght hon. gentleman op pctsite had stated that the children in schools of Protestant denominations would not be examined in religion, and that the children in Church of England schools would be exa mined on religious matters under the supervision of the two archbishops of the Church. The question he wished to ask was whether, in the event of any failure on the part of any school of either Protestant denomination or of the Church of England, the penalties under the new code would attach to that failure, and be the same as if there were a failure on the Fart of those schools which only taught reading, writing, and arithmetic? Mr. KINNAIRD said he merely wished to expr:ss hie concurrence with what had fallen from the right hon. gen tleman the member or Bucks (Mr. Disraeli), and to say that this was a matter which required the gravest consi deration of Parliament. Mr. CAIRD wished to know whether the new code would apply to the schools in Scotland. Lord R. CECIL understcod the right hon. gentleman to say that he expected the estimate for these schools would be ab, ut £500,000. Did it not amount to more than that sum at present ? Mr. LOWE, in reply, said the whole estimate for the department was no doubt considerably more, but ZCO,OOO would be the sum required for these schools, and that it was not intended to apply the minute to the schools in Scotland. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) had asked what he thought of a minister rescinding the Reform Act and promulgating a new nne, and his answer was i hat he should think he was mad. (Hear.) The right hon. gen leman then complained that the minute was net laid upon the table until the day before the separation of Parliament, and that it would come into operation immediately. But it should be remembered that the first examination under it would not take place before the 25th July, 1862, and there foro not until after Parliament had properly dealt with the whole subject matter. The right. hon. gentleman (Mr. Lowe) then referred to his speech delivered in the house on the 12th July last, showing that the new minute was ex plained to the house at that time. He was in hopes of lay ing it earlier on the table than the 27th July, but that was found to be impossible. If it had been intended to with draw this minute from the consideration of Parliament, it would not have been laid on the table at the end of a session. The object of the Government in acting as they had done was, that the minute should be thoroughly e xamined b y those who took an interest in the subject, and it had under. gone a full discussion. If he had wanted to play fast and loose with the house he should have ?ursued a contrary course, and would have hoped that other business would have caused less consideration to be given to this matter. The question was now in the hands of the house, and it would be for the house to fix a day for its further discussion, Mr. NEWDEGATE repeated the question which he had asked. Mr. LO WE said if an inspector reported that th e re li g i ous teaching in a school was not satisfactory , the gran t wou ld bo withheld altogether , but in regard to other matters it would be in the power of the committee to withhold not less than one-tenth or more than one-half of the grant. This was a minor penalty introducei for the first time. Sir J. PAKINGTON said he had heard with great satis faction the reason why the revised code was not introduced at an earlier period of the last session. The house cught not to be taken by surprise, or deprived of that security which it had so long possessed in this matter. He would refer the house to the proceedings under Lord Derby's Go vernment of 1852,. when some changes were introduced of minor importance in reference to the education grant, and a ll parties agreed that Qv house ought to have some con trol over the Committee of the Privy Council. He had listened to the speech of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Lowe), but he th=ght it would be undesirable on this oc • casiotl to discuss the poi n t s ra i se d upon th e new co d e . H e musts lay that' e was surprised at the apparent inconsis tency 1 )otweesk the language whtch the right hon. gentle man (It Tr. Leave) had used to-night and that which he hull used las :session, when he had said that in the revised code the whol e system of the Privy Council would be left intact and it wa a owing to that assertion that public indignation. had been SO much aroused when a code was laid on the table at tl to extreme end of the session, which appeared to upset the whole principle of the Privy Council. The right hon. gent" !email had stated to-night that "the whole plan was to sa% 'cep away the existing principle." It might be possible tl sat the right hon, .gentleman had used the words. in a more lien ited sense than he was giving them, but almost lA . last wards applying to the Privy Council were " un worm? of a - permanent and definite system." He thought that 'the 'hour 'e and the country had a right to complain of the c ourse wk ich the Government had pursued. The right hon. g entlema n had alluded to those who had spoken on this matter , luring - the recess. He (Sir J. Pakington) was one of these, but h.s could assure the right hon. gentleman that„ though h a had. condemned the existing system, he had care -- fully guarded himself against the expression of an opinion which would fetter his action in that house, and he was pre pared to co Ise to the consideration of the question in the most imparti 'al nnd dispassionate spirit. He had always maintained t] to opinion that if it were attempted to educate all England u nder the present system it would be found too costly and too highly centralised, and in that opinion he was now fortified by /he report of an impartial commission and the able speech of the right hon. gentleman to-night, which was less a vindication of the revised c ode than. a. powerful' attack on the existing system. Mr. WALPOLE hoped that the Government would give a silecific ansm - er both as to the time and the mode in which this tluestion - was to be discussed, and suggested that the Geyer lament should, for the convenience of discussion, lay before t'he house in parallel columns the system as it existed and asi t was proposed to be altered, so that the house could modify por'ti'ons, or adopt or reject the whole. Sir G. GH.EY said that Government were anxious that the minute she aild be discussed in the form most acceptable to the house. When alterations were made from time to mina. to of the Privy Council, it was laid on the t ti a m bl e e, in ny an a dit was qt,lite competent to any member to make a. motion on the subject, and of course it would be equally competent to any hon. gentleman to do the same on this oc casion. If that course shou2d not be taken, the Government would be bound before they could carry out the system to ask the house for a vote of money, and on taking that vote it would be open to any member to object to the minute; but if no motion were made by any hon. gentleman whe ' objected to it, then the Government did not intend to do so. Mr. LOWE, in explanation of what had fallen from the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) said that his remarks Keit year were to the effect that the Government did not in tena' to make any change in the fundamental system of the count il, and that what he had said to-night alluded to the 4 ua nua I granting of money. The motion was then agreed to. SEWAGE OF CITIES AND TOWNS. D r. i s 'ILADY gave notice of the following motion : g 4 To mo , - e for a committee to inquire into the best means the sewage of the cities and towns of England, to the reduction of local taxation and the bene nowfti t u oh t f i a l a i g s v i ri n i e a ts,* lurned at 20 minutes past 9 o'clock. The house adj\ cofr 2 * '7 MA RK.L:i A 5. it wasat, but mANc H OTER—FEs. 13. At our market to-day tb je flour fair a a dull. tendance The former business in both wheat and er at 6d per sack and brl. was at a decline of ls and the lak: American wheat in limited regne.. 4 at ld to 2d per 100 lb cheaper. Oats neglected, and oatmeal 6d per load below last week's prices. Beans and Indian porn a quiet sale. SLEAFORD-FEB. 12. We had a good' attendance of merchants and farmers at our Exchange to-day, and wheat experienced a dull trade, with little or no variation from late quotations. Wheat, 68s to 695, barley, 33s to 38s; oats, 21s to 255; beans, 41s to 45s per quarter. LYNN-FEB. 12. Old white 638 to 658 j Barley, 3os to 3814 . 61g uo 633 I Oats Beans .42s to 46s I Peas 46s to Ma MELTON MOWDRAY-FEz. 12. There was a tolerable show of wheat to-day, and, with an inactive trade, prices very little Changed. Barley was still a steady sale, at downward prices. White wheat, 59a Od to 66s Od; red, 65s Od to 62s per 36 stone; beans slow, at 44s to 508 for old ; new sorts, —s per 38 st. ; barley, 34s to 39s for malting, and Ws to 31s per qr. for grinding; oats, 22s to 32s Od per 24 stone. EDINBURGH GRAIN-FEB. 12. Wheat on the top 4s Od down..• average Os 2d up. Barley on the top is 6d up average Os 3d up. Oats on the top Os 9d up average Os 2d Ip. Beans on the top Os 6d down. average Os 10d up. Total Supply and Sales. Wheat ...1461 qrs Sold 969 qrs 8ar1ey........1262 qrs,, Sold 1045 qrs Oats 1949 qrs.. ~,,, . Sold 1332 gra Beans 268 qrs „Sold 262 qrs Averages per Imperial qutirter. Wheat New wheat -12ths Barley 1 10 10 10-12ths Oats -12ths Beans e• 2 1 10 2-12ths CORK—FEB. 12. The following were the quotations this morning :—RE d wheat, 20s Od to 28s 6i ; white, 24s Od to 29s Od; barley 114 6d to 15s Od ; oats, 7s Od to 14s 9d. DERBY SMITHFIELD-FEB, N. There was a fair supply of fat beasts to-dwY, and the attendance was large. Beef in good demand. he supply of sheep was short, and prices unaltered. Fat calves were scarce, and sold well. The show of fat pigs was en average one, maintaining late rates. • •• • Beet 6d to 61d I Veal 7O to 81 Mutton .... 7id to Sid Pork Lamb Od to Od Rough fat, 4s 3d per some. Hides, 3d to 41d ; calf skins, 6d to 6d. FOREIGN HAIL PACKET LIST. MAILS DUE. Australia and Mauritius, via Southampton Feb. 18. via Marseilles ... Feb. V. , Brazil and Cape Verds, by British packet. . March 6. Cape of Good Hope, Ascension, and Sr. Helena.. March 3. China, Penang, and Singapore, via Southampton. Feb. 18. via Marseilles ...Feb. 13. Falkland Islands Gibraltar, via Southampton .... Feb. India (Calcutta), and Ceylon, via Southampton Feb. 18. via Marseilles Feb. 13. India (Bombay), via Southampton Feb. —.— via Marseilles Feb. 20. Lisbon Feb, —. Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via Southampton Feb. —• ( via Marseilles. Feb. 17„ Newfoundland ... ••• Feb. 19' Oporto and VigO U. S. and British N. America, Ly Brit. packet Feb. 13i- • by U.S. packet .. by Canadian packet. Feb. 12. W.C. of Africa, Madeira, and Teneriffe Mar. 10. Bahamas, via New York All Parts . of West Indies, incl u di ng Chili , Peru, Feb. 13. Mexico .... F e b. 28. California, and B r iti s h C o l um bi a. 1 Feb. 13. BENSON'S WATCHES AND CLOCKS.--" Perfection of mechanism.”—Morning Post. Gold watches, sto 1( 0 guineas; silver watches, 2 to 50 . guineas: • Benson's new Illustrated Pamphlet. free for two stamps; descriptive of every construe tion of watch, enables persons in any part of the world t select with the greatest certainty the watch best adapted to their use. Watches sent free and safe by post on receipt of a remittance.—J. W. Benson, 33 and 34, Ludgate-hill, 46 and 47, Cornhill, London, E.C.—Establii3hed 1741 (ADVERTISEMENT.] —Holloway's Ointment and Pills.-- Universal Patronage.—Let all sufferers from general or local disease take heart, and follOsi 'in the wake of thou sands who ascribe their restoration of health to the use of these noble remedies. Rheumatism in the muscles or joints, gouty pains, neuralgic tortures, et:arript and sp,S modic twitches depart under the ap ropriate employment of Holloway's Ointment and Pills. Bad legs, all kinds of ulcers, sores, burns, wounds, _pimples, cutaneous inflara mations, and dropsical swellings are best met and quickest conquered by this Ointment, which happily combines harmlessness with efficiency. The reputation Holloway's Ointment and Pills have acquired throughout the habitable globe should induce every afflicted person to give them & trial before despairing of relief or abandoning hope. BIRTHS. GALL—On the 12th inst., at 2, Sheffield-gardens, the wife of E. J. Morant Gale, Esq., of a son. GAiTerr.—On the 9th inst., at Peckham, the wife of Capt. Chas. Gayton, R.N., of a son. GOWER —On the 10th inst., at 22, Hill-street, the lion. Mrs. Leveson Gower, of a daughter. REMNANT.—On the 13th inst., at 17, Kensington-park" gardens, the wife of Frederick William Remnant, EE'l 9 of a son. MARRIAGES. HOWARD—CHESTER.—On the 12th inst., at St. George's, Hanover-square, the Hon. and Rev. William Howard, of Whiston Rectory, Yorkshire, youngest aim of .;he late Earl of Effingham, to Barbara Frances Wilhelmina, the youngest daughter of the late Lieut.-General Chester, R A., of Ashtead, Surrey. WEALS—BULL.—On the 11th inst., at Christ Church, Turnham-green, G. H. Harding, youngest son of Robt. Neale, Esq., of the Elms, Biggleswade, to Helen, second daughter of J. P. Bull, Esq., of Arlington House, and Hyde-park-street. DEATHS. FARQUHARSON.—On the 10th inst., at 26, St. George's road, Captain Charli a Farquharson, R.N., Elder Brother of the Trinity House, aged 67. GLADSTONE.—On the 12th inst., at 42, Upper Brook street, Elizabeth Honoria, wife of Captain Gladstone, R.N., M.P. HoerEn.—On the 11th inst., at Peckham, Henry Hooper, Esq., of 49, Old Broad-street, and of Lloyd's, aged 43. HIITTON. — On the 11th inst., at Leckford Vicarage, tho Rev. F.H. Hutton, M.A., aged 67. M'RoRIE —On the 7th inst., at South Lambeth, Mr. Nt*Rorie, aged 90. PERRIN.—On the 4th inst, at Morden College, Blackheath , John Perrin, Esq., aged 95. -_-___- ---- -- - -- 7. —___ LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG c i 1 , 70. 112, Strand, Printer, at TRU SUN °Mee, No. 112,Strar. al, in the Precinct of the Savoy in the County of BliddlePex, Friday, February 11, 1862, 1 i l i ' I= ~ _~