The Sun. — London, England, 1802-06-10 00:00:00

~~: ...,.,,,.,,,,, the 2 5 . ' boo men were propose/ to be-voted, nor was that number merely for Ireland either; but it w as to be • recollected, in considering this mat ter, that we had now several Possessions to take car e of which did not belong to os:formerly; as well as that we had given 'up many which we possessed, .by means of the late,War. We- had now to take care of Trinidad, in' the West, and Ceylon, in the ast.- l A 7 e , were also- to take care of Gibraltar, and likewise to protea and secure our Possessions in North America ;under all these.circumstances, surely it was the duty of Ministers to provide such Military strength as wottld give this Country a reasonable degree of security. If there was aetually a fOrce of 47)090 in-en in the . Country, he did not know, that, under the present circumstances, such a Force would be demanded for the purpose of security. There was no man who attached more importance than he did to the consideration of the mearis dour security, no man who. relied more upon the valour of our Fleets and Armies ; but he was also impressed with , this conviction, that brave as .our Forces might be, great, or consummate as the skill might be by :which they were directed, still 'we must always look to "the zeal' and ardour of the people to give `life •and.vigour to all our undertakings ; and this , Ptiticiple had been most conspicitous in this- Coun try, when most threatened with danger, and had most of all signal in the progress of die late war. '• r ' credit Of this Country was also great ; its re- • sources vast—but with all these mighty - advantages, for so they were, with' all the advantages of the zeal, , ardour, and public spirit of the People, the bravery of Its Troops, the skill of their Commanders, the credit 'and resources Of the Country, and . all • the points which constituted its character, we could not be-ex_. eused if we-did not provide essential means, likethese, lee r the continuance of its safety. A s t o t h e probabi lItY of our being again soon involved in war, he certainly had no idea of any such thing; but secure as lie conceived us to be in this respeet, 'he shOuld not suffer that idea to lull him into a'false security, for that would be worse than a false alarm of danger the course which be wished to pursire was a middle Course, which he hoped would 'prevent jealousy on t he one hand, or an invitation, by weakness, to hostili ty on t h e ot h er . H e t h en procee d e d to ta k e Fice of the difference which the present proposed orce Would make from that of the War Establish_ Th era, the savings - upon which, suppoSing no further t'edudions to take place between this and Christmas t)e xri would be seven millions, three millions of t ll'hich would be in the amount of the Army Esta 'Ushment. Now, he observed, that from the manner in which his Hon. Friend who. spoke last, j 'ad Laken up the. subjea, he hardly knew -how to argue it, since his Hon. Friend took the Vote now Propos e d, as t h e permanent system . of establishment, .0r something like the - system, that was likely to be countenanced by. Government, by way of the future Peace EstabliShment of this Country ; and taking it so, his Hon. Friend-had said it was too larg e in one sense, and too small in another ; too large for a system of. ecomony, and- too small for a System of security; and he- had stated it therefore to he of all systems the most exceptionable; and so would be, if his Hon. Friend was-right in view_. ing it as too large for one purpose, and too small for another ; but he apprehended it to be neither, but that it was a system which our security re tuired, and which was nor too far removed from economy under the present circumstances. His l ion. Friend had taken a view of the- Peace Esta blishment of 1791, and he had given the Committee unders:and, .that the 'system of 1791 was that `*() which be inclined-: that was indeed a. system I vhieil was not liable to the double objedion of be.. too large in one case, and too small in another— tuo large for economy, and too small for security. It cerramly Was not too small for the econo m y o f w hi c h I 'is 1 - lon. Friend spoke ; but as to security it was ntiseribly defeaive-he thought, therefore, that. the' pla n for our Establishment for the ensuing year, Out which from cireunistances the Committee: must 'CC he would nor define) could not be formed upon. themodel of the Establishment of 1791. We ought, i tt '°s( unquestionably,- to 'h ave a much larger esta i I ;shmen t t h an t h at o f t h e year 179t1 and he would ask the Committee, whether they had or, had not up their minds to follow the precedent of our ,„ i litary Establishme n t of 1 . 791 and 1792 ? lie whether, ask every M em b er o f t h e CO mm i ttee, "v s netiler upon looking back at all the circumst ances ° L i ° Lir Military . System in the years 5791 and 1792, he wa s not convinced that it was a system which, to say the l east o f i t , was m i sera bl y d e fi c i ent h ether, on the very instant of the b rea ki ng (s ttt of the - war, there was not, among us, a general 10nseiousness, that our Military Establishment was much below the point at which it would' be pit nt to keep it in future ? He really thought such.. s c° nsciou sness was general, and that the. evils re d ,j i ting from it, were admitted I for it was not the war had continued for several years, that e had an Army capable - of offcrisive operations, `" (1 it was not until within a certain, and not a " -er Y remote period, of the termination of hostilities, Q ar Army was in the degree of force which it ought he for the purpose of maintaining the Contest 1 4 which w e h a d b een engage d . —N ow, if Gentle :en would make up their. minds to incur a great . o "nger for the sake of saving some expellee, he would say, that a lth oug h t h at was t h e sent i ment o f hi s °II. Friend who spoke last, yet if -it was the ge 'Zral sentiment in' that Committee, he should have s ? look forward with much more uneasy apprehen 01he ° "s 0( our safety, than he felt at present. He felt necessity of economy ; but in a large view of on l y itself, h e appre h ended i t to b e proper to Provide for our security, although the certain ,t 3e , llc e of so d o i ng , b e considerable; - because, in his ti '_ew of the thing, there was no economy where s sere was no secur i ty. H e k new his Hon. Friend 1- 1 . 41 "Ke on this occasion as lie , did on all others, ahv er Hutch tho ug h t ; t h at his opinions were d"Ys the r esu l t of refledion ;. his sentiments e always stew:lily formed and candidly avow h4llot only i n that House, but also out of it. H the happi ness o f communicating -with his. Hon.e e nd noon many" public t o pi cs • out o f t h at H ouse , 4 6 , fe t tile time of discussion within. lie had. lriy „'° upo , , the topic now before the Corhinittee ; P"ri 1. Friend had been so kind as to put him in ssessi on f • t' his sentiments o n this subjea ; he the points he hail brought forward .to-hight, 0 true points On which hiss Fronitrienciis mind was made up, and therefore he ,had stated them to the Committee ; • he applauded the candour, and Tespea. ed the-sincerity of his Hari;Frierid—bnt he ShOuld 'feel Considerable alarm for— the situation of this Country, if the opinion of - his Hort Friend on the se topics should become the prevailing opinion of that House. 'He was not . disposed to attach much weight' to• any observations; however respectable the quarter might be from whence they came, and none could be more so than that of his Hon. Friend; but he could net attach much iveight to observa tions which were made from the view of, only one side of any subjeEt : we could not think on the great increase of our Expenditure, - without feeling also that our Income' had likewise increased. Here - we saw indeed an increase from 4. to z 8 millions. If there was such an increase in the ietual amount of our Charges, arising from the unavoidable increase of -our Debt, he aid not conceive that this consi deration deserved the denomination of a gloomy prospect, since there were on the other side prospeCts of a comfortable-kind ; for if our Debt - had been augmented, our Imports had increased, our Exports had increased, our Shipping had in creased, our ManufaCtures had increased, and all -the sources of our wealth and power as a Nation had improved ; and this, in a manner that wa' much more than equal to the increase of our burtheni.— He was not to be understood by this - to contend, that the pressure of the War was not great: -On the contrary, he admitted that pressure'to be great; but what he contended was, that the povver of the country was greatet than-the pressure upon it,' and that its means to suppokt itself are still ample, nOt withstanding the pressure it has borne.' He did not mean to undet-rate thepressure -of the burthens upon this Country at any time, but he did not !;eeany reason why that part of the subjea should be consi dered,, without considering also the wealth of - the Country.Wit•hout desiring the Committee to indulge any sentiment of distrust at the present posture of. 'affltirs, but merely for the purpose of inculcating doetrine of necessary caution, he would desire the Committee to look at the present Geographical relrt don which this - Country bears to other Countries on 'the different parts of the Glube. He contended it was - impassible to look at the Map of Europe, with. out feeling that a'sentiment of caution and a certain degree of preparation was' imposed apon that HouSe. Did he conceive that there was any dispOsition indi cative of danger manifested any where ? Or, that he could say that Peace should not he observed, and its advantages cultivated in the true spirit of peace ? No such thing—he saw no such indication—he wish ed to inspire no distrust against the continuance of Peace—hut he looked at the world as:it - was—at mankind as they were ; and he was not sanguine enough .to think that the world was grown so much better, or that the temper of mankind was so much improved, as to think caution was absolutely superfluous as to think that no advantage would ever be attempted to be taken of us, or that we should continue to .be perfectly se cure, although we should have reduced ourselves to a state of absolute weakness. T o a state of weak. ness, he was of opinion, we . should'he redueed, if we adopted the system of this Country in the year 1791, for which reason he could not assent to it. His Honourable Friend had said, that a greater de gree of publicity attended the proceedings of this, Country ,in State Matters than that of any other in this world, and that this publiCity had its advan taxesand its disadvantages. This statement was perfectly cdrrea as far as it went. That the pub licity of the proceedings of a_State was attended with some disadvantages was true, and they were inseparable from the condition of a Free S tate ; b ut that the advantages on the whole case, greatly.over balanced the disadvantages of such publicity, was absolutely manifest to him ; So much so; that he did not think 'it a question to be at all discussed in the present enlightened state of human society. But he could not help saying, that whatever evils might he stipposed - to 'attend the publicity of the sentiments of public men on public affairs, such sen timents, in his opinion, 'ought to be made public, that the world might judge of them. He never did, and, he hoped'he never should, use any violent or intemperate language towards other Powers, but he should always use explicit language in conveying what he'meant as necessary measures for the well being or safety of thii Country. How irritation 'could be the result of that course he could 'not conceive, but if it was td -be so, he should not be deterred' from doing his duty,' from ' any ' such, or indeed any other consideration. Having said this, he should add, - that in his opinion it was not posSible to provide for the security of the Country, nor indeed 'to be in that state of Military Voice, which all the Committee (except his Hon. Friend) seemed to wish, between 'this time and the end of the year, without voting that which was now proposed.—He earnestly hoped the period was not remote, when a large redudion should take place in out Peace Establishment ; but we should at all events guard against the possibility of being placed in the same situation we were in at the period dint. Upon the whole; he was in clined to hope that the 'House arid the Country would not think that Government had shewn any improvident regard to what was due to the Country, by bringing forward the proposition which was now before the Committee. The-amount of the Naval and of the Military Force to be kept up in this Country drust,, in future; be judged of by cir. cumstances ; his opinion was, that they might be safely reduced to a very considerable extent ; but he begged to he understood as not to pledge himself to any specific Establishment ; either as to Navy or Army. He should wish to proceed in such manner as to provide for our safety in all cases, without any unnecessary expence. He was of opinion that the measure new proposed was not more than was necessary, under the present 'cireum stances, to provide for OUT safety according to the principle which ; he apprehended ; was the true guide of our conduCt. Mr. JONES thought the burdens insupportable, but.saw the necessity 'ofpesenting an' iron front to the 'adamantine Republic. He thought the' ;House too thin to decide on such 1n- important Subjea. . Mr.:VANSITTARt rose to correet some state ments made by Mr. BANK ES. He said the Hon. Gen. :Leman had stated the excess of the revenOeAbove the Interest of the debt in r79i ttiamotifirfo-6,766,0001. and that in the present yea). .only :to 5,500,0001. to observing tirn this, he shotdd take the. AcCounts made up to the s.th Apt'illast, instead of those rridd2 up to Jantiary, as in the latter — the - re were Many things which arose from circumstances not at all to be expected ding Pea Ce. By the Accotrnts,niatie up to April 7ast, the net Revenue amounted to 22,996,0661. In this sum the Customs were not included, nor a deduAion of 2,000,0001. for Corn bounties: The stoppage of die Distilleries had also in the preceding period taken away a large sum ; but of this lie should, make no estiniate at present. There was oniittej also in the Accounts, the sum .of 300,0001. of the Revenues of i 801; In addition to this, the. Taxes laid on thiS year would, at the most moderate computation,. amount to 4,00000db1. and the Land;faX to i,660,0601. making in all nearly 3 t millions and a half. The interest and expences of the Debt amounted to Z 4,603,0001. from which it would appear that the clear Funl to cover our Expenditure was 9,600,0001 . .. instead of 6,700,0001. the boasted overplus of 1791. - Mr. BANKES said, that froth the Papers laid upon the Table he should 'attempt to justify himself from the charge of inaecuraCy. The Accounts which lay on the Table only came up to January, it was therefore impossible in reasoning froth them to take any notice of the Loan, or .the new Taxes, which did not then exist. He contended, that .all the particulars he had formerly stated were coma ; that the,balance of the free Revenue was greater in 1791, and that we had a double.expence on a less revenue . : he should defer any further observations -till a future day. Mr. ROBSON observed, that such--an-enormous Establishment could, not be reckoned one of the bless. ings of Peace. The R6oliitiori was then put and carried. The SECRETARY at WAR then moved the following Sums: 439 ,000 315,852 1 7,919 130,000 474,000 13,863 13,868 7,9 8 4 - 2 7 , 754 1,200 10,855 5094 - 14o,o,:o - 60,315 -. 35, 0 35 6,212 - 1 44,400 26,161 45,205 - - - 5 16,571 Pay, &c. of Army for Great Britain Ditto for Ireland Ditto Plantations • Cavalry Recruiting - - I risl► Cavalry; Watch -coats, &c. S 0#:00 - leers in Great Britain Ditto in . 6mrni-sioned Officers in Ireland • Supernumerary Officers in Great Britain Ditto in Ireland - . - •Qaarternnasters, Agents, Controlkirs, &c. &c. Ditto in Ireland . - Allowance for Sniall-Bter Ditto , tor i reland Half-Pay in Great Britain Ditto. foi - . Ireland Marines, &c. Half-pay in Great Britain Dim} Ireland . Halt;pay to reduced 0 flicers - Several Officers, ‘ formerly ;in the S'er vice of the States-General - ,- Chelsea Hospital - Kilmainhain Hospital - Volunteer Corps in Great Britain Ditto l rAand ` 2 7,9;3 72,000 - 68 t 000 - 2 97x9 82 - J3b,99 0 324,2100 Barracks in Great Britain Ditto Ireland Foreign Corps Mr. , R.OBSON said, he remembered the 'time when there was a great jealousy in this Coun tr y about the maintaining of Foreign Troops in British pay : he thought it Strange that provisioo.should be made for those Corps up to Christmas next, par_ ticularly as it was understood that they were in general to be disbanded. _ _ _ - The SECRETARY at WAR said that the Corps in question had been embodied in consequence of Ads of Parliament for that purpOsr, and the sums for their maintenance were annually coed by Parlia- Ment. The Hon. Gentleman was incorrect in sup . - posing that they were to be kept up till Christmas ; some were to be disbanded in the course Of this month, some in August,. and some who were on service, in November. . The Resolution was agreed to. The SECRETARY at WAR moved that the sum of 63691. be granted for the Military College. Mr. ROBSON obje4ed to part of the Estimate given in upon this subjea : he objefted to the ap pointment of a Secretary, Paymaster, and Treasurer, particularly the hitter, because he said a Treasuier could not be necessary for sq small a sum as 60001. The 'S ECI?.ET All?) at WAR said, that although the sum granted by Government was so small, yet, from the extensive concerns of this Institution, such Officers'Were necessary. The Resolution was agreed to: The SECRETARY at WAR moved, that the sum of13,000l:, be granted for the Royal Military Asy lum at Chelsea. Mr. ROJISON said, the building for this Insti_ tutiorrought to have been ereied upon the ground belonging to Chelsea Hospital. After a few words from General DE LANCEY, the Resolution was agreed to. The SECRETARY at WAR moved, that the sum 0f"16,19r1. be granted for medicines, bed. ding, and hospital contingencies, &c. in Ireland. Agreed to. ORDNANCE. Mr. SARGENT moved, . that the sum of 272,2661. be granted foi the Service of the Ord nance. Agreed to. For the Ordnance of freland not provided for -17,08 S For the Ordnance Service nor provided for in 18ot 10'2,119 IRISH SUPPLIES. Mr. CORRY moved that the sum of 3 . 7i.1 . 981. be granted for the payment of Treasury Bills due within the year i 301. • For printing and 'binding the journals of the Irish Par liament - -.- .: - . i 325 For printingand binding dig Irish Statutes - • -69 ii For Persons employed in making Indexes, &c, to ditto 25 , 84 For certain Officers employed in ,making up Publie Accounts .: - • , - These- several Resolution s w ere agree d to, and the Report was ordered to be received tomorrow. 2243 LORD HIGH CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND. . . Mr. CORRY nioved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself. into a Committee on a pro. position for augmenting the Salary, &c. of the Lord High Chancellor of - Ireland,. which being read, the House accordingly resolved itself into the said Committee, Mr. ALEXANDER in the Chair. Mr. CoRRY said, that he trusted no. difference of opinion could exist as to the propriety of the Motion he was about .to submit to the Committee, when the peculiar nature of -it, .and the chasraaer and merits of the Noble Personage who in the first I. instance was to be its obien, was duly considered. It was well known that the etrio/tiMenti .of .the Office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland were consider.: ably diminished. in consequence, of the Union; which principally arose from the cessation Of . the Office•of Sneaket of the House of Lords in that Cotintry. .... i he - late Lord Chancellor; by the compensadon which was made r 6 him, coniiuued to enjoy- the full emoluments, btit that compensation was to continCe only during tl?e, life of the then Lord chancellor. It was tioneceSsaryte expatiate on the great in por... tance and dignity of the office; and the necessity there Was of having the person who filled it duly remunerated, and also to enable hiai to support the necessary dignity of the office He entertained no doubt of. the Committee agreeing to place the Noble Personage who now held the office in as' advantageous a situationi s in point of e m o l ument , at 4 his predee essors . In consequence of an Order of the House, an. Account had been Made Okit of the' Salary; F,;molumetftS, and Pr.nhs of that , Oftize.__. What he should propoSe was, that this Account be made up a net sum of t 0,0601. Dritish, per annum. The income of the late Lord -CLARE; while Chan; cellor, was within a trifft. of • that stith ; arid he trusted, that when the nature and impot tance of the Office were considered, the-eharader and .merit of the Noble Lord who so dtiservedly ailed it; and the necessity of his.frequent attendance in this Country as a Lord of Parliament; the suni would not be deemed too much. Under this impression; he Moved, " That for the more effedual support of the dig pity,. &c. of. the Offiee.of. Lord High Chancellor, or Keeper of the Great Seal of Ireland, the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury of that piirt of the. United Kingdom; be authorized to issue out of the Consckllated Fund of that Kingdorn,. stcli sutns.a , ,,, together with the Salary and Profits of such Office may artiount to the net Sum of t0,d001 . . Sterling." . Mr. IV. B. PU.N.S..ONBY shortly expressed his opinion, that the proplsed sum was not too much • for the purpose, .because, in former years, the ento luments of Chancellor in Ireland were known to ex. ceed that ; but he hoped it would - not . be 'made a precedent for granting siniilarincreases, on occa sions wheie,such may not be necessary; and to per:. sons less deserving than the objet of the present motion. Mr; LEIGH observed; that the proposed increase was by no means more than adequate to its objeds, and that no measure whatever could cause more plea Sure in Ireland, than that now proposed.--he felt it Un: necessary to, expatiate on the rank and dignity of the Office, or the necessity of it's being filled by'a person of talents and abilityarid he heartily-thanked his Right Hon. Friend for bringing it forward. Mr. ROBSON t . ated hiS objedions to the pro.: position at some length : from what a Gentleman. of Ireland had just stated, the etholunients of the Office_ "were moretherefore this would be a redtidion of them ; but setting that aside, td,ooel. was a great deal of money;`‘and so, those would think who were to pay it besides the duties of the Office were reduced, then why continue an equal Salary ? A _ net to,oool. a year was a cool 'thing. He knew, of no Office in England any thing like it. That of our ChancellOr of the Exchequer was perhaps not hallscr well paid—there. would-be_ no peace in the learned profession ;after this-41,1 would grasp a t this fine cool thingits effects Would be astonish ing: He should hear better "reasons for the in crease ere he could ,Sgree to vote so much from the pockets of the,People of this Country: The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob. served; that the Hon:. Gentleman seemed _much disquieted on the present occasion, 'but he was at a loss to know wiled-I,r •the propositions operated more on his feelings of .duty or on his ambition (a latzgh). To him ; he seemed a little affetied oil that score ;—but to speak seriously to the - point, he was astonished that any person capable of come paring'the manner in • which the discharge of th; important duties of the Office in question ,were remunerated, svith the manner in which the Lord Chancellor of England was remunerated, could for a moment imagine, that what was now proposed was any other than adequate remaneration.—; He would go" farther, and contend, that when every part of the question was considered, and the neces. sity which existed "of having the first talents, abi lities and charader to fill the officer the proposed remuneration was money ; the most economically ex:: pended.—When they considered the great adyam: tages which would result to Ireland by a pure and diligent administration.of justice, he was confident, that every intelligent man, even those who were swayed by the paltry consideration of individual interest, must acknowledge the remuneration td be economical; and that on such a principle never was money more cheaply bestowed: The question before the Commlttee was obviously to be considered independently of the worth and merits of the Noble Personage who . filled the Office, for whom,no person could feel a greater regard, esteem, or•friendship, than himself; The Office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland was the main °hied; and when they considered the increased expetices neces sarily incurred by, that, Officer since the Unions when, as in the instance before theth, he should come to visit thisCOuntryy and take 'hie seat in the Upper,House of Parliament, to which his charader and talents so justly entitled him', the necessity of i his having a place of residence here, the additional' sacrifice of persdnal ease; which the present Chan cellor of Ireland. made merely tidal considerations of ' public duty; no man could objed td the proposed increase, an increase ,duei not merely to Loid REDESDAI:E i but to the High' Chancel lor of Ireland r this declaration he felt it hie duty to roake, highly as he valued his Noble Friend, such feelings did not operate' with iiird on the present occasion . was urging only a just and adequate remuneration to the Lord Chan. cellor of Ireland, and which; when it was consider. , ed the talents and eharatter which would always' be necessary to, fill that station,--he was confident no man could controvert ;- the arduous duties and great importance of that Office' Could not be surpassed in any Country, and being pefstraded _ that the Office was now filled with. as; much ability, knowledge; and reditude, as that exhibited by any person that ever sat on the Woolsack, or Chancellor's Chair id 'either kingdom; he C ou ld not but express his astonishment . atfinding the proposition considered in the light which the Hon, Gentleman seemed-to con. sider atF