The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-15 00:00:00

I RML PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF PEERS. TUESDAY, DECEMBER 14. COUNSEL were finally heard on the Scots Appeal, Lord KINNAIRD MATHEWSON, ViZ.— Mr. ADAM on the part of the Respondent in reply . -- After which their Lordships, on the Motion of the Lord CHANCELLOR, postponed judgment thereon till Friday. The Bills bfought up yesterday from the Com mons, among which was the Malt Tax Bill, were read a second time, and committed.for to-morrow. Their Lordships were ordered to'be summoned on the occasion. _ _ _ ... _ . ~ Two Private. Bills were read a. third time and passed ; and two other. Private Bills brought up from the Commons by Mr. BApW IN and others, were. read a first time. _ _ The Irish Militia Bill went through a Commit, tee of the whole House, Lord .WALsINGH,AM in 'the Chair, and was ordered to be reported to-morrow. Mr. REYNOLDS presented. at the Bar certain Mcumentsfrom the Court of Exchequer in Ireland, relative to the Cause of STUART , Z). YOUNG ; which were ordered to be. laid on the Table. Some routine Business was disposed of, after which their Lordships adjourned till to..morrow. A number of Peers attended, but the Discussion expeatd this evening is, we understand, proposed for another Stage Of the Bill. HOUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY, DEC. 14. 'A Nrw Writ was ordered to he issued for the Borough of Midhurst, in the room of SAMUEL S:,ITTH, Esq. who made his ,eleElion for .the Town of Lciester. _ Au Account was presented of the sums of money advanced ptirsuant to Addresses of that House, which was ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. BURDON moved for leave to bring up a Petition from the Ship.owners of. the City of Dur ham, praying for the Repeal of the Tonnage Duty Bill. In doing this, he said, he was aware that the statement made in the Petition did not corre, spond with the flattering account of our Commerce lately given by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER. But in that he could not have sufficiently attended to the regulations lately Made by our great .Rivals in their Navicration Laws; and soon after the Recess, he intended to make a Motion actilated to afford some information which might be more relied upon. He did not blame the Right Non. Gentleman for resisting such applications as that contained in this Petition, till the case was completely made out ; but nothing was more evi dent than that the grievante here complained of, was of a nature which may operate very,dangerously to our Commerce. _ _ _ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the statement he had oh a former occasion tnadeof the increased trade of the POrt of London, was not with a view to exhibit a case hostile to the wishes of the Petitioners, but to make a general re presentation of the growipg state of our Commer cial Prosperity. It would not be fair to draw a general inference from the Shipping •of Liverpool, or any particular place. In consequence of what he had heard said of the decrease of Liverpool Ship ping, hi thought it his duty to set on foot a-parti cular inquiry, and the result was, that on a corn-' parison, it was found that the ships entering in wards in 18or was 1391, and in the year 18oz was 1843, being an increase of 452. In the clearings outwards the number of English ships was 1694 in the year 1801, and in the year tBoz it was z 062. The foreign ships were, in the former year, 703, and in the latte:r had decreased to 461. The tonnage inwards in the former was 179 , 35 1 in the latter 324,859. The foreign tonnage at these corresponding periods was 703 for the•former ; year, and 461 for the latter.' The total of the ton nage for 18ot was 22,696 ; in 1802, 255,336. The ships might indeed be justly supposed to make a greater number of trips, in time . of Peace than in periods of War, brit making evt ry allowance anti dedation, the statement he •,procured, shewed that the increased quantity of Shipping employed since the Peace was 2 ci,obo ; but taking it only for the four Ports of London, Bristol, Liverpool, and Hull, • the calculation would .be very moderate which should place it at'no more than to,ooo, exclusive ly of the other parts of the United Kingdom. In reference to this subje6l, he did not see any neces sity for a specific Motion, as an A& of Parliament , had already enjoined that there be laid before -the Hotie an Account of the increase of the Consolidat ed Fund wi:h the charges upon it ; the amount of the Taxes and the - charges upon them ; the-tonnage. of Shi',Tping, their nuMbers ; and the start of the Public Debt.-- . -All which must come before the House without having recourse to any specific : MO., : tion fo- that purpose. . General. GASCOYNE thought, that whatever - respeA may be due to any Statement of the, Mini : ster, yet the samerelince was not to be had 'upon . _ a Pa)er which he was . piea",ed to take out of his orker, as upon public Parliamentary Documents with the explanation given, he might be priVately , satisfied, but could not admit its authenticity when • afling -in bef•ilf of the great Commercial , City, for. had the honour of being a RepreSentative: N ot hi ng was more clear than that the- West. India Trade, the most.capital.of all our branches-of Com-, itierce, was not in .a prosperous situation. The Minister 'himself was so sensible of this, .that he understood it was his intention to afford them some , The Petition's on the Table froth different earts of the Country were, in themselves, sufficient vidence that the Carrying Trade was in a.srate of cAsiderable depression. No person could be ig norant that the increase of British Shipping in the, year 180 z, was not a fair criterion, compared with' the decrease in the former year by the suspension of the Navigation Aft, the difficulty of sailing with,: out convoy, even to F'oreign vessels, the number, of Transports employed by Government, whicii made no entry, and various other reasons which must - suggest themselves to men acquainted Wi/ r h Cornmercial Subjefts. The Hon. Gentleman , said, that, he 414 not think_higitqlf txeated with cat-1(164r by the Minister, in obeying the instruaions which he received from his Constituents, ana in doing which, he had said nothing which could be thought of a personal nature. The information brought forward by the CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER might, for any thing he knew, have been obtained in a surreptitious manner ; and ,should the House enter into the investigation,. it would be proved, that the Foreign Shipping had increased at least two-thirds, and, that the Shipping Interest was so depressed, that not a single vessel in the Merchant Service was now building in the whole of the River ThaMes. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained, that every thing he had said wasdidated. only by a sense pf duty, and that he should haye said, without any regard to persons, exa6lly the same, had the observation come from any other quarter. Mr. ATKINS observed, that there were parti cular reasons why the trade of Liverpool might have declined since the conclusion of the Peace. After the conquest of the Foreign Colonies; Liver pool, with great spirit, took the lead in supplying them, and since they had been ceded, it was not to be wondered at 'if that branch of its commerce were diminished. . Mr. DENT expressed himself highly pleased with the representation lately made of the general prosperity of the United Kingdow ; but could not avoid noticing, -the dispositions every where made by our Rival to overset us. He understood that Commercial Consuls had been sent by the French Government to Glasgow, Bristol, Dublin, and other places, and most .of those were composed of En gineers and General Officers. Thus circumstanced, it was impossible that we could, shew too much pre. ference for the commercial concerns of the country. Sir WILLIAM CURTIS said, 'it was an un founded idea to suppose that the West India Islands were likely to he ruined for want of Commerce with this Country. It was ,equally erroneous to say, that'the River Thames was not now demon strating the Prosperity of our Trade. He had some right to be considered as tolerably informed on this subjel, and would 'venture to assert, that Merchant 'Ships of all sizes and descriptions, were not only construaing, but daily launched, in the different dock-yardi upon the River Thames. During the whole course of the War there was 'ha set of men made more money than the ship.owaiers. They concealed their profits, butbrotight : forward their losses, the latter of which:bore no kind of propor tion to the former. He did not altogether blame them for this, as when it was known that there "was a great surplus in the Revenue, it was natural enough for every man to wish to' get rid of those taxes which bore most heavily upon them ; but that consideration did not justify any misrepresen tation to that House. ' Mr. VANSITTART . reminded the House, that the present question was only ,whether the Petition should lie upon the Table. It was produced by alledged causes and effects, which to'him seemed to have no existence in reality. it,was true,. that all Petitions. to that House, and more especially from such a respetlable class of men, should be weighed with great attention. But he thought tha't Mem bers had not a fair right to avail themselves of all Petitions presented to make general statements,. 'go into details, and 'prejudge the real question. He conceived his Right - Hon, Friend to be perfedly right in drawing a comparison between the,years 18ox and 18oz, as no year since the Revolution was more favourable to British Shipping than the former, and would therefore answer every purpose of the argument. General GASCOYNE', Mr. VANSITTART, and Mr. ButtooN, spoke severally in explanation, after which the Petition was ordered to lie on the Table. The Bill for appointing Commissioner: 'to in quire .and examine into the Frauds, Abuses, and Irregularities, which have been, or: may be, com mitted in the Navy,' &c. being brought up anti read a first time, the question belt% put for the second reading, Admiral BERKELEY said, he hoped to hear some explanation of a mistake which it was ap prehended he laboured under, yesterday. He did say, that he apprehended the Admiralty were in possession of power sufficient 'to appoint Commis.. sionera to' examine into these - abuses, 'without coming to that House. An Honourable' Gentle- • man then said, there was no such thing, without assigning. any -reason whatever for saying jor. He had not then seen the Patent of the Lords 47 the Admiralty Board,' so that he dOubted whether lie had not 'been under some mistake, but he' had this day examined the Patent, tli.; result of which was a convidion in his 'own 'mind now, that he'was coireCi - in :trvilist he stated yester day on the subjett of the PoWerof the Board to which be had alluded, _that the Admiralty certainly' had the Power, and that Ithey had it to a much' greatee degree Olio he had before apprehended, they had ; :however, that was all perfeCtly done away,. by what. was said yesterday on the necessi;y this Measure, a necessity which he did not by any means pretend to controvert. He believed it. was• pettedly necessary. that .the House should, entertain . this Bill, 'for that it was fit that the Power it tended. to delegate, should be lodged with Commissioners chosen , for that purpose ; he would, however, re mind the House of a saying of a Noble Lord, which, although a joke, was full of strong sense and Meaning, of the strength and importance of the Admiralty Board--" That the Navy Board was hewn out of the Admiral Tree." He did not use this expression with a view to oppose this Bill, .but. merely to justify himself in the assertion he made respeding the original Power of the Board of Admiralty, and he said it alsO by way of caution, lest some of the Public 'Papers should mistake his meaning, and consequently miSrepresent what he said. He knew not how Reports of the Debates in Par liament got into the Papers, but they certainly did so somehow or other. He did not complain of the prattice ; but this he was entitled to say, that when they did get into Papers,. care shOuld he taken that they were not inaccurate-,that they should toot con vey a meaning which a as never intended by the per. sons speaking , thetn. The matter he had to com, plain of was in a Paper -which he himselflook iri s and which he hdieved generally to be a very gopd Paper. Tle SPEAKER.--Order ! Unquestionably If the Hon..MeMber means to complain of a breach of Pri vilege in what p he lineages to be done, iris compe tent to . him' to read every word, and , then to move a Question - of-Privilege upon it, for the Debates of this House are not to be printed in Papers ; but if the Hon. Member does not mean to move any thing upon it, it-is not competent to him to call _the at - - tention of the House, to the matter. Admiral .BERKELEY said, he wished to read the Paper,.and he wished to ask the Chair .far as- - sistance, how be was to proceed. The SPEAKER. --L--" I am in the judgment of the House. I apprehend that: if any person pre sumes to print in his Paper any of the Debates of this House, it' can only be brought before this House by complainnig of it as abreach of Privilege, and that to state . it with any other view is perfed 1y disorderly." • . i Admiral BE that he must submit to the Chair : he said that the reason he had men tioned this was, that being on terms of the most cor- dial friendship with a gallant Officer, he was very much hurt that the° sentiments expressed by another Member, concerning that gallant Officer (Sir J. B. WARREN, as we understood), had been set down for his, Admiral BERKELEY'S. The expressions might be well enough from the person who deliver ed them, but not from him, who had se, sincere a.. regard and true friendship for the. gallant Officer, a friendship, in which he hoped to live and die. He said this the more ardently, as. he,was. aware that the gallant- Officer to whom he allUded, had, at present, no other means nf knowing, what was passing in Parliament, but through the medium of the Newspapers. As to the course pointed out to him, of, complaining of this mistake as a Breach of Privilege, he knew that was in his power ; but it was a power which he did not, feel inclined to make 'Use of, for he was much too great a friend to the Liberty of the Press, to complain of a mistake in it, although this, was 'one which he very much lamented. 11.1 r. COOPE42 said, that on the subjea`now be fore the House, he thought i: his duty to deliver ' his sentiments. It had been asked, why the Ad. miralty should come to Parliament fur a Power which they had already ? That was not correaly stated,..and that objection had been answered, yes. terday, very ably by the Minister, by saying, that the Power vested in the Navy Board, was not suf ficient for the purpose intended ; and, he added, that sufficient 'Power should be given to the Com .mittee for that purpose, Indeed, if the Powers of the Navy Board were five tithes greater than they are, he thought this courser a fair' one. Had they , not, in a fair and' manly manner, come forward to the House and said, " There are a great ,many Abuses in the Navy Department, and we call on you, as the Guardians of the Interests of the Coun try, to administer the Remedy ?" , He wished to know, whether any measure could, be mdre dirdt,, honourable, and fair, th4n this ? He alluded to, some insinuations which had been cast out against, a Noble Lord, high in Office, upon the use of Pa tronage, If there was any charge against that Noble Lord, let it he'made fairly ; let the question be brought to view in a manly and fair manner; but let not the House compromise its dignity, by listening to insinuations and allegations, that were I made without the shadow of proof to support them But what. Was the capital crime imputed to Admi nistratioo ? Why, we were told that a gallant Of ficer,. an Admiral, who, during the late War, con. duded.hims . elf with great gallantry in the Service of his King and Country, had been appointed Arnim sailor to the Court of Sr. Petersburgh. If merit was to 'be imputed to a man as. a crime, he ad mitted the complaint in its full extent :—but it was said, it 'was very unusual to send . Mini rals, or. any Naval Officers, on 'Embassies :— , He saw nothing in the objeaion, unless incapacity to fill the,Diplotnatie Station could be proved. Upon the %v,hale matter, he approved of this Bill as a part of t'he general system of the present AdminiStration, which vas that of Vigilance, Moderation, Econo. my, and Corredion of Abuses. If these were to be the grounds of reproach to the Administration, they should have hiS support as long as they continued to commit suchlike enormities. ". . , Mr. GARTAISHORE said, the Admiralty had power over Boards so as to examine theM, but they had nothing-to do with the investigation of these matters which they were about to submit to the Committee. _ Admiral BERKELEY:said a few words in explana tion. Mr. JARv IS made . an' able' speech in support of the Bill, and explained the necessity of its intro dadion, as Well - as the main objeas its provisions embraCed, After which the Bill was read a second , time, -and ordered to be committed to a Committee of the whole House to-morrow. Mr.- ALEXAND-Elt brought up : the Report of the Committee of Supply. The Resolutioos were all read and agreed to. , Mr. VANWTTART moved that the House do re solve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider- of the -Ads •for preventing' the Im portation Of Malt from Ireland, &c. the several Ads of Parliament upon this subjed were referred. to the said Committee.—;-The House having re_ . solved itself into a Committee accordingly, Mr. V 'INUIT:MT stated,-that this was an im portant subjea: it was not now the objet to make a general permanent provision, but to provide an immediate remedy to an inconvenience which was felt. By the annual 'Malt mt,, all the provisions of the. Ancient Statutes were renewed, and one of the Ads was so far back as the time of Queen Anne., The Malt Aa past subsequent to the Ad for.iregulatiog the importation of Provisions, and by that Aa, persons bringing Malt from Ireland, uncter a_Proclamation in Council, — recited 'by the Ad; were under a great inconvenience, for the Malt wassubjed to seizure, under the provisions of some of these Ads. The object now was, to per mit Malt to be imported here from Ireland, upon the system of the Countervailing Duties, as already established by the Union. But this,, he desired to be considered a's only a temporary 'Measure, A permanent System was hereafter to he considered of with due deliberation. Mr. CORRY observed that the sub . jed of Conk was reserved for future re&ulation Uniun Compatt, And therefore there could be no objettios to this measure. But it was right the Public should know that this measure arose from the manner in which the Proclamation in . Council was worded, it being made to apply only to . the importation of Malt from Ireland to , England, and therefore the present measure applied only to that objet. The Proclamation for importing Malt into -Ireland from England was differently worded, and therefore this measure could not affeEt that branch of the Case. He said. this, lest some persons might subjesEt them selves to forfeitures, by supposing that it applied: to both these points, whereas it applied only to one of them—namely, to that of importing Malt from Ireland to England. The Resolution was then put and carried to this effeet, " That it is the opinion of -this Committee, it is expedient to permit the Importation of Malt made in Ireland into Great Britain, for a time to be limited." This was followed * by another Resolution, for providing the Countervailing Duty upon such Malt. Mr. CORRY 'then proposed a Resolution, That it is the opinion of this Committee, that Seed i Corn be permitted to be exported from Great Bri tain to Ireland for a time to be limited. Mr. V ANS ITT ART said, that this was a very important:business, and could only be for a time to be limited, otherwise it might be the subject of much jealousy, and even of ill use in the practice in the event of a scarcity.'—Care should be taken that if was for . Seed only that the Corn should be exported. Mr. CORRY said, that this matter was to be watched with the utmost vigilance, and a stria ad:- herence to the condition was to be protected under very: severe penalties of confiscation and other _ri gours, and the whole was to continue only for a limited time, just sufficient to send over to Ireland a sufficient quantity of Coin for Seed from this Corm. try, which was of a much superior quality to that 'Which grew there at present. This was a measure in which both Countries were deeply interested, in asmuch. as Ireland might hereaizer become a sort of granary for this Country. •The whole matter was hereafter to be fully discussed, and then some per manent provision Might be made. The Resolution was agreed to. Sir W. PULTENRY brought up a Petition from, a Town, the name of which we could'not hear, bur it was in the county of Salop, stating_ the incon ieniencies which certain Maltsters feel tin,ler,' the provisions of the late At of Parliament, auttit'l7- ing relief. Ordered to be laid on the Table.i:_ Report of the Dublin Baking, Bill brought up, read, and agreed to. The Resolutions on the Drawback on Sugars ;i.' England were read and agreed to. Mr. CORRY moved Resolutions exactly similar to them, on Sugars in Ireland, putting the trade he' tween the two Countries exactly on the samc footing.—Resolutrons past.' The Report on Expiring Laws relative to Coro was brought up and agreed to. - The Bill for suspending Prosecutions on •some , antient Statutes, as far back As the time of Ric HARO 11. for penalties on account of working certain Wool‘i, len Manufactures, &c. was read a first ti:tte, and or' ; decd to be read a second "time to-morr o w_ Deferred the other Orders of the Day.-- r Adjour n '' ed till to-morrow. :~ MAILS. Du;* ARRIVED. Holland o Hamburgh o - - - Lisbon 1 - PRICE OF STOCKS, THIS DAY AT TWELVE O'CLOCK'. Consols - - 72, OIDDiUM -- ) 2 d i sc THE SUN. SOLZM QUIS DICER& FALSUIS AUDZAT LONDON, DECEMBER t ,, IS°7' THE Statement made by the CHANCELL°' the EXCHEQUER last night, on the discussion of the , question respeding the Petition from , t he S I "P, Owners of the City ol Durham, affords an 3 01 ' 7 clonal, and most satisfadory proof, of the ftourisl state and increasing prosperity of the Commerce °,- this Country. AFTER our Paper was put to• Press yesterday, ,s received the Paris Papers to the tzth inst. I I i t confidently stated, that the Journey - of the Flg9- CONSUL into Belgium, will take place tte‘t st o ary, and that after having visited An, were, Bras and Ghent, he will proceed to . Mentz. ns The French Government has appointed Citiz-i 1 ti Ci BARTHELEMY, DESMEUNIERS, RCEDEREg Al . fe FoucHE, to confer with the Deputies from Sa. =viand, who'are nearly all assembled in F'ari4. 01 The Moniteur notices the first presentati° •lio Foreign Ladies to Madame Bowa NRT' ' . Dutchess of DoRt,ET., and several English Ladles ' were presented. The Funds arc 52. 85. —......—.—. I, VP This morning arrived a M a i/ f ro m Lisv i _ ° ,, brought to Falmouth by the ifialsin.bax* ,l'c'''' ~..-; . . • in twelve days. rl'%l' ,, Yesterday the box R of Yo toc P t ' o d g • e tl t ' h e7 eri taS i * CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ro de James's Park. ' r r" Mr. PITT will continue at Bath till air', It o' holidays, where he has derived the m ost co' be benefit from the use of the Waters. that t It is reported, we know not how trolY' •,,i„,cer - Earl of CHATHAM is about to ° reign tilt! 'Y Generalship of the Ordnance. he 13 •"' A The LottD MAYOR yesterday orderer. t to be continued at. 91d. the Quarter ° Lo3i. Qii, 11 r,c ,eti.