The Sun. — London, England, 1807-03-06 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF PEERS, ,THURSDAY, ,MARCH 5 The Sugar Drawback Bill and the South Sea Bill were read a third time and passed. - -Atter going through -some private business, the liuuse adjourned till to-morrow (this day). HOUSE :OF COMMONS, THURSDAY, , MARCH 5. The crowd - this Qvening was very considerable.- - -Aefore five o'clock, the Lobby of the House and the venue,to the Gallery were filled with people. Ow to the ballot for the Guildford Committee, and ihT.' calling over of the House, strangers were not admitted until a quarter past six o'clock, .On our entering the Gallery; Mr. YORKE was on his•-lEgs, but the noise and confusion, were so great that several minutes elapSed before it became possi ble to hear what; was said. When something like silence_ was obtained, we . found that Mr. YORKE was stating that several persons had - passed Through tbe.body of the House to ,the Gallery. He declared that in case of any repetition of such a proceeding, he should think it - his duty to enforce the standing Order for the exclusion of strangers.. FELLOW'S complained in strong terms of the Crowd in the lobby, through which he had passed with much difficulty, arid at the risk of having his grips broken. Mr. BARRON observed, thathe had seen a num ber of Strangers force their way, in spite of the re sistance made by the-Officers of the House. .:; The SPEAKER declared it to be the duty of the Serjeant, when he found that the avenges to the House were crowded with strangers, to provide pro per persons to clear them, and to maintain order. Mar. WHITE Appeared at the Bar, with the reduced List of the Committee ballotted to takeinto con sideration the Petition complaining of an undue Return for the Borough of Guildford. As far as the tumult, which still continued, would allow us to col.; leEt the names as they were read by the Clerk, they appeared to be as follow : Sir T. Callander, Bart: • T. Everctr, q. Lord Louv4ine, Lord Paget, W. I. Dennison, Esq. G. Vereker, Esq. • Sir A. Wellesley, Bait. H. 4 l)awson, Esq. H. Pearce,, Esq. T. thistictliwaite;Esq. R. Mellish, Esq. . NONIIN4Z-110 C. Combe, Esq. WESTMINSTER WITNESSES. On the Motion of Lord HOWICK, there were or tiered to be laid before the House ACcountsishew ing the tithe of service in His Majesty's Nay's , of. Thomas Weatherbead and ,William Drake ; also, Accotints . iheWing, the PenSions paid to William Drake from the Chest at Greenwich ; the occasions Op which the said Pensions were granted, &c. - On the Motion of Lrwd Howtctc, the House was ordered to be called over on Tuesday, When the Noble Lord declared, that unless a sufficient excuse should be made by the defaulters, he should move, that the course of proceeding adopted in 1793, of taking them into custody, should be enforced. CATHOLIC AND OTHER DISSENTERS. . Lord. nowirez a: , 1(1, be rose in vnrsuance of a notice which he gave on a former day, but which had been since extended, .to move for leave to. bring in a Bill to secure to all his Majesty's Subjeas the freedom and privilege of entering into the service of the Navy and Army, subject to no oath but that which he should propose in the Bill, which heln tended, with the leaVe of the House, to bring in that night. The principal object of the Bill would be to enable Dissenters of. every description, who might enter into the Navy or Army, to exercise their reli gion Without -any restraint whatever. He did.not apprehend that a measure of this kind, which should embrace so large a portion of the subje&s of the Empire as the whole body of Dissenters, could meet with any opposilion. ' The proposition was so self evident, that he hardly thought it necessary to enter at any length into the subjeet. Self-evident, how ever, as the proposition was, it acquired additional weight by the circumstance, that by the Bill intend ed to.be brought in, the Government would be en , ahlk.sd to accept the offers of service and the co-ope % ration Of such as were excluded under existing laws. He had no intention of occupying the time of the House by going into the policy of imposing restraint in fornier,times he knew that a writer of great ce lebrity, for whose talents he entertained the . highest respect, had supported that doctrine--he meant Dr. Paley ; but he rejoiced that we lived in times when it would not be necessary to argue the principle of . Dying restraints on account of religion. As the elt4'tes to which that very great authority refereed no lonv,erexisted, he should not, therefore, go into the argament on that part of the subj,e6t ; and the !louse surely must feel with.laim, that at a, period of public• danger like the present, it was not only ex pediefit, but most wise to comprehend in the force -of the country the Catholics of England and Ireland, composing, at least, one-fouttli of our whole pepti 7 latioo This he stated aS - a general proposition, -which carried int the very mention of it the utmost e - onvitaion—brit he was happily relieved from being . obliged tO apply that they be permitted to serve-'- far, notwithstanding the restraint which existed they entered in considerable numbers into both ser vices, but particularly into the Navy. He did. not )relieve that any person would say, that the great prOportiOn of Catholic Sailors should be excluded from serving in the cause of their King and Country. Ile wished to call theattention , of the House to the uncertainty of the law as it stood at present on this subjed, which would fully explain the reason of his introducing the .present Bill. The House would observe, that ;by an A6t passed in Ireland in 1797, the Catholics were enabled to serve in the Army, 'ind to enjoy at the same time, in that service, the free exercise of their religion. But they were still liable to the pains and penalties of the existing laws against Catholics if 'they entered the Navy. The mason was, that the Irish Legislature .had not the • Dower of extending to the Navy the provisions of t'helr • AEt . 'for admitting Catholics into the Army ; and hence arose the present anomaly, which it was the wish of Government to remove; for there could not he a greater absurdity` than to tell the Catholic that . he might be trusted to serve in the Army, but not inihe Navy this was the anomaly, though 'it was not fortunately the faCt. 'By the A& of 1793, Catholics wkge enabled to hold every rack btit that of Cotnmander in Chief, Maitet-Gerietal of the Ordnance, and' that of General on the Staff. - From these situations alone were Catholics excluded by the Irish Legislature. But what might be the el:fed of the continuance of such an absurd exclusion ? Why, that a Catholic Colonel; or Major-General, however great his talents, and of whatever standing, would be obliged , to give up the command of the force or brigade to which he Was entitled, to a person, who did not possess any claim but-that of being a Protestant. This was not only -a hardship to the individual who suffered this indignity, but. the greatest disadvantage to the Country. The abaurdity and hardship Was still greater in the case of a regiment coming from -Ireland, even in time of danger, to succour Eng land ; the immediate corgrequence of which would be, to subjea every Catholic in it to the penalty of the law existing in this. Country for the exclusion of that description of his Majesty's Subjeets, unless they renounced their religion. Could there be a' greater severity inflicted on the persons themselves, or could a greater inconvenience arise to the Public Servide, than those just mentioned, which'. might hereafter be the effect of continuing the present re , striCtions ? This inconvenience which he stated had been fOund to arise, and consequently a promise had been made in .1793, .by Lord Clare in the House of Lords, and by Lord Buckinghamshire (Secretary Hobart) in the House Of Commons, that they would use every effort to have the spirit and provisions of the . A& of 1793 extended to this CoutF. try. Government felt it their duty therefore to re, deem this solemn pledge made to the Irish People by those distinguished persons. The beneficial ef.-. feits of the A& were immediately felt in Ireland ; and he might say, without fear of contradiction, that since the passing of it not one inconvenience had arisen from its operation. On the contrary, the Shores of Egypt and the ,Plains of Maida testified the distinguished part ,which the Catholics had acted in promoting, on those brilliant Occasions, the honour, power, and glory of the Empire. The be nefit of this measure was not, to be solely enjoyed by the Catholics, but to be fully participated by Dissenters of every description. They would be henceforth, or after the passing of this Bill, en abled to enter into his Majesty's service free from all those restraints which hung over them at present. It would be recollected by the House, that the Irish Aelleft a, disqualification on the Catholics as to the rank of Commander in Chief, Master of the Ord nance, and General on the Staff. It was the ob je& of the Bill for which he should move, tei do away every - restraint whatever, and to allow Catho lics to bold rank of every description, the highest ,both in Army , and Navy, as well as the lowest. His Majesty's Government did not apprehend any danger from adopting such a line of condud towards the Catholics, and every other class Of Dissenters ; for if they thOUght there was the most remote cause 'for Apprehension from this indulgence, they would not content themselves with imposing restraints, -as former Govelntnents had done,• but proceed at once to a total -exclusion of those whom'they had reason to suspe6t. He could hardly expe& any opposition to a Bill, the chief obje6t,of which was to enable, as he had already stated, Dissenterl of all classes and descriptions to exercise their' religion freely in the Naval and Military service of the Country, and to hold such • rank -as they might have entitled them selves to, by time and talents. He did not mean to propose that they should have any particular Chap lains in either service. On the whole he was con vinced that the measure would be produCtive of the greatest advantages in every point of -View ;it would excite the ardour and energy of the Catholic Gantry, and hold out an inducement to their sons to enter into 'the Army and Navy, and thus enable them to contribute tot he security, welfare, and mdependenCe of the Country. Having stated the outline of the Bill, be should reserve himself to reply to such objeCtions as might be made to any part of it. His Lordship then concluded with. moving • for leave to bring in a Bill for enabling his Majesty to avail him self of the service of all his liege Subjects in the Army and Navy. Mr. PERCIVAL observed, that it was not his intention to enter at length this night into the sub je& adduced by the Noble Lord. He felt it his duty,- hoiarever, to state, that he should-One - Se it, as far as he was able, in all its subsequent stages.-- , - He certainly had great objeetion to the dill itself, but that objection was heightened by the eonvietioh which be felt, that it was only a part, of the whole: He was aware that it was the intention of the No ble Lord to introduce measure after measure in fa- Vour of the Catholic Body, till the line of separation between them and the Protestants was completely destroyed. He called therefore upon the -House to , oppose the Noble Lord's encroachments on these rights and privileges which the wisdom of, our an cestors had established and secured. - If we did not do so in time, he apprehended that the Catholie.es tablishment would soon supersede . ,that of the Pro- • testants in Ireland, and break down their ascendan cy. The Learned Gentleman then argued at some length in order to prove that the object of Govern ment was, to sap the power of the Protestants in the. „sister kingdom., In, support of his position, the Learned Gentleman advatw.ad the additional grant of 50001. made last night'to the College of Maynooth, in Ireland, for the education of persons for the Ca tholic priesthoolin Ireland, He thought that the object of the Noble Lord would be completely an swered by regulations in the articles of war, which his Majesty might at any time introduce. But, even as the law now Stood,' he Considered the Catholics covered from the effe6ls of any of the old Aas.— The Mutiny Bill enabled his Majesty to .call on all his subjects, on pain Of 'death if they disobeyed - : What occasion, therefore, had the Noble Lord to in troduce a new Bill, for enabling his Majesty to ac cept the service of any, of his subje&s ? He disap proved very much of the mode In which Govern ment proceeded to fritter away the Protestant ascen dancy in Ireland; but should take a-future opportuni ty of delivering his opinions at greater length on that important subject. Lord TEMPLE contended, that the whole of the arguments of the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman•went the length of overturning every princi ple of policy and justice which one sett of Christians was bound to entertain for another. They were ar guments better calculated for' the dark ages of un enlightened men, than for the more polished aura of the 19th century. • He called to that Hon. Gentle man's recolleelion the circumstance which he him , . yclf, on 4'l9l'lller occasion, acknowledged, that pia, ny persons it; the Catholic persuasion were already in the army, and he appealed to his candour, whe ther, iu tise condua of officer or private, be ever knew or heard of one clamorous event throughout that Army arising from religious prejudice? If any thing could give them a title to consideration, that certainly ought, and a stronger recommendation they could 'not have. , Mr. YORKE did not obje& to the principle of the Bill, especially as the Irish Parliament had recog nized it ; and he thought that the British could not do less than follow their example; and he was also free to confess that the Bill was but acing with a just regard to reciprocal rights,' when its enaaing clauses were extended .to the navy ; ,but he was ra ther apprehensive that the Noble Lord (Temple) went a little too far, when be charged the pwcau tions of our ancestors in the restricting laws which they made against Popery, as arising frorn_prejudices of the.dark ages. He would bring to that Noble Lord's mind the epocha when those laws were inad. They were made when they constituted and .formed the Bill of Rights ; when they established . and se cured the public liberty ; .and when they placed the House of Hanover upon the Throne of these Realms. It was true, however, that the dangers that existed. when these restri&ing laws were made, had, in a great degree, ceased, and he was therefore of opi nion, that ,a relaxation of their severer prohibitions was now necessary ; but these matters of relaxation should be adopted with a cautious regard. to public safety ; it was quite imposAble for riith or for any man to:forget the melancholy and tragic scenes that occurred in Ireland in 1798 ; and, with these in remembrance, it was impossible_not to ap prehend that too rapid a relaxation mightlead to the most dangerous consequences. The Bill, however, as far as he had an opportunity, of considering it, bad his support, but he would not pledge' himself to ,the whole of its enaaing clauses. The Catholics of England had, for a series of years, been examples of patience ; - they had undergone the most wonderful purgation, and never murmured i they deserved every consideration that could be paid to them; and he bad only to lament, that, as often as the events of the year 1798 occurred to his mind, he could not say so much of those belonging to another part of the Empire. But, as he hoped those efiervescences would subside, so he also trusted they would here after deserve well of their felli!'--citizenS. That the religious prejudices of those men who served in the Army had subsided, he ,himself knew many in stances: he knew them go so far, as that when the Privates went to church, several of the Officers, who were Catholics, went thither along with them . as regularly and as' corre&ly as if they - had been educated in the tenets of the Established Religion of their Country. Mr. MONTAGUE considered the measure under contemplation as dangerous and inimical to the peace of the empire. He was certain that the indulgence of permitting Papists to eater the Army and Navy would lead to their admission to the civil and high offices of the State ; ;the consequences thereof must in the event be fatal to the Country. fie anticipated the confusion which it would create in the Navy, where, instead of having one peaceable and orderly Clergyman of the Established Church, there might be collected together in the same ship a dozen of Popish Priests, -to,divert the crew from their duty, and annoy, them with religious principles and dis cipline. ' (At this latter remark the Members on the Treasury Bench, ana nearly the whole House, laughed most heartily. The Hon. Gentle.man;was, however, proceeding, when Mr. YOR X s called toprder,, and complained that it was. unfairi not to say unpolite, to prevent his Hon. Friend hiving a fair hearing. The l'Ouse became calm, and Mr. Montague went on.] He said he would express his sentiments as an Eng lish 'Member of Parliament, and riot be deterred by either laughs or gestures, whether they proceeded from the Noble'Lord (Hotvick) opposite to him, or from any other quarter. He charged the House to , advert to the dreadful occurrences that happened in this city in the year 1780 ; and warned them to beware how .they attempted like measures, which might provoke like scenes, and probably envelope in ,flames the house-of that Noble Lord himself, in com mon-with the houses of others who then heard him. Mr. FREEMANTLE desired Gentlemen would withold their feari of what wasCoutaiped in the Bill till they should read it ; as it . Was, he could assure them it would not contain one syllable regarding Catholic Clergy, and they' might rest persuaded,,, that nothing of its contents bore'upon the. Constitu tion of the Country. - Mr. PLOMER was convinced . the measure would be produaive of the happiest effects ; and he trusted that no slight-difference of opinion would prevent its passing into dlaw, and thereby deprive the Coun try of so great, so usefUl, and so effective a body of men as the Catholics. Mr. CORRY apprized the House that this was a measure of Policy, not'of Religion. It was to pre vent -men from furnishing Foreign States with that aid which their Courage would produce, and that lus tre which would more happily and'fortunately shine upon them• in their Country's carte. Mr. HAWKINS BROIL NE. was against the as be-Considered it air inlet to-give encourage ment to a telioion dangerous to civil liberty, _and cic struEtive of the constitution of this country. He. vas fearful it would create alarm through the king dom, and he cautioned Ministers accordingly. But: if it could be restri6ted to Officers of the Army and Navy, without creating suspicions that it was only the prelude to greater and' more serious innovations, he could not consistently with his conscience' oppose ' it. As this, however, remained to be seen, he should expea to be convinced that his apprehensions' were unfounded, before even in this shape he Would' consent to the measure. Lord TIOWICK did not expe&, upon a Motion for leave to bring in a Bill, that any such discussion would have taken place as had occurred but, in con sequence of what had fallen from some Gentlemen, he - thought it requisite to say a.few words, ,not only in explanation, but in justification of himself. One Hon.Gentlernan had expressed his feks that the Bill might be. produaive of those scenes that disgraced London in 1780. But he would ask that Gentleman, whether the Catholics caused those horrid circum stances ? or rather he could tell that Hon. Gentle man that those scenes arose from such speeches as . the Han. Gentleman had just made, and uttered.by a Member in that House, in a way exactly It was there the alarm originated, and not out of doors. He trusted, if his house should fall a sacrifice, that-it.would not become his lot to accuse the Hon. Gm:lemon as beiti the v.ause of it. An Honour, able and Learned Getitlenian als:, hal stated that the, Bill would have the _effea of a c impulsory measure; but he must be pardoned if,.on this occasion; he doubt ed that Gentleman's law on the subject}. His opinion upon what he considered a compulsory measure on a former occasion, was already before the Public (pl ludink to an. opinion professionally giVen by the flbn. and Learned Gentleman relative to the Volunteers), and the House would judge of his opinion on this subje&, by the Opinion he published npon that occa sion. To speak his mind freely od the matter,• he was inclined to think that Officers of the Catholic Religion in the Army were serving contrary to liw. The Irish Aa,which ordained, that they should serve only in the Irish Army, is itself a nullity, forly the Union that Army .is ' merged into one con solidated body, and is now called in common with the rest—“ The ' Army of • the :United King dom.- This Bill would, however . , remove all-doubt upon the case, and he trusted he Should have leave to bring it in: . As to smiling at the HO nourable *Gentleman's, observations, it was quite impossible' to avoid it, for when he talked of a dozen Catholic Priests creating discord .on boird ship, it naturally occurred to him that the Hon. Gentleman must suppose, when the boatswain piped all hands, that instead of performing the discipline of theship, they were all to fall to and join in the Matins. But, as his Hon. Friend had' before stated, so he now repeatedit, that there was not a word in the Bill, about either Pro/estant Or Catholic Clergymen. Leave was then given, and the Bill was brought in, read . a first time,. and ordered for a secolidlead •ing this day se'nnight. • - , SUPPLY. "! Mr. HOBHOUSE . brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply. •• On the Resolution for granting 80,0001. to make good a like sum advanced to the King of Prussia. Mr. 13ANKES 1 +wording this grant as . the first instalment of a subsidy to Prussia, and regarding subsidies, though they may be' wise in some circum stances, as very generally unwise, felt himself bound to state his sentiments at some length. He would recall • the attention of the Houseto the subsidies granted since the commeecement of the late - war, every one of which it was thought hard to refuse at the time, but every one of which had altogether failed of pro ducing the benefits expe&ed from it. He first in stanced the subsidy to the. King of Sardinia, agreed upon in 1793,. the amounts of which was to ie 200 ; 0001. a year during the war. But the King of Sardinia was obliged to make a separate peace in less .' than threeyears. In the same year a treaty ofsubsidy was entered into with Hesse , Cassel, and that Power • was obliged to make a separate peace in two years. In 1''%98 another treaty was made with no better re sult. The Ele&oral troops of 'Hanover; the Mar, grave of Baden, and the 4andgrave of Besse Darm stadt, subsidized at the same time, all made peace in the same year. In 1793 , a subsidy was granted to Russia, guaranteed by the United States. The sum was .50,0001. a Month during the war, a n d 3 00,000 1 . in advance, but , Russia made a separate peace in 1795. A larger subsidy ,was granted to Austria iu 1795: There was a loan to that Power of 4,600,0901. in 1796, and a further loan of 1,600,0001. in 17 97. But Austria also was compelled by distress to make a precipitate peace Shortly after. A new: loan of . 2,000,0001. was advanced in 1 8 0 0, and shortly after the battle at Marengo eatingul s h ec i a ll h opes o f b enef i t from the co-operation of Austria. I n 1798, a Treaty of Subsidy was concluded with , Russia. The sum to be supplied monthly was 75,060 T. with an advance Of 300,6001. But the politics of the Cotirt oflussia changed suddenly, and that Power became our active enemy.. In 1800, the•EleCtors of Bavaria and Mentz, andother Powers,were also subsidized With as little good effeEt. Since the renewal of the War on the Continent, in 1805, another Treaty had existed, and it was only last night that rums had been .voted to pay some ar rearsicontraCted under that Treaty. But ,that - Treaty had had no better effect than the former. The, fatal battle of Austerliti compelled that Power to , make what terms she - could, and now we had to make good to Sweden and to Russia the arrears of that unfortunate Subsidiary Alli ence . Th e present grant seemed to be the commencement of a new - system of Subsidy. He would not be disposed to cavil at this sum, if it were not to lead to many larger grants. (Lord Howick said, across the table, " No, there is no Treaty of Subsidy.") Mr. Bal - dies, in continuation, said, if there was 110 provision lbe Subsidy in the Treaty with Russia, he had trespassed ,too long upon the House. He bad' addressed th e House only on the idea that a large Subsidy was it contemplation. . . Lord H. PETTYstated, that this adVance wad made by Lord Hutchinson for the particular exigen cies of the Army and the Fortresses. in Silesia. - He _conceived the cause of the misunderstanding, that this advance was the commencement of a Subsidy, arose from its having.been mentioned in 'the Message from. His Majesty communicating the intelligence of the Treaty of. Peace with the King of Prussia. But there was nothing of Subsidy in the Treaty ; thead vance has been made in consequence of a discretion, .ary- power given to Lord Hutchinson; whose dis cretion could not' be' doubted, in case any particular emergency required such 'a grant, or any particular services could be effeaed by it. This advance had had great effeCt in preventing the progress of the enemy in the quarter in which it had been applied. He,agreed with the Hon.Gentlernan,- that in making • future Treaties of Subsidy we ought to be regulated by past experience —and that our advantages ought to be regulatecity the benefits which, according to past experience, we might reasonably hope to re ceive. • '.Mr 'BANKES, under the ex planation that had been given, haduo objeaion to make good the ad s ssurance given 'by t h e No vance that had been made by Lord HutChinson.— He was lu rd, pleasedthat in wittuhree_Treaties of Subsidy past a experience would be made the guide, and that vast sums would not be advanced without any certainty of benefit. Lord HOWICK said Lord Hutchinson had a. dis cretionary power to Make advances incase of any pressing emergency, and he was sure every person would agree that such a discretion could not be . placed in better hands. There was no Treaty of Sub sidy. But he. Would not have the House go away with the idea that Government was precluded from grant ing a Subsidy if circumstances should render it de sirable. He agreed that many of the former Subsi • dies were most unwise in principle, and most unpro- CilldiVc in event. gut every case depended on its 1