The Sun. — London, England, 1807-02-21 00:00:00

they would at length let the Petition fall to the ground. With respeff to the absence of Counsel on Circuit, he had said that would be 'matter for subsequent consideration. Lord HOWICk said, the jealousy with which the House viewed any unnecessary delay of the trial of Controverted -Eledions was very just. It was most material'that every seat should, as early as possible, be filled beyond dispute•by the' person en titled to it. The absence, of Counsel was not in itself a sufficient ground - for delay; but, conpled , with an understanding on zi former day that such further delay would be granted and with the fad that the Petitioners' Counsel would not be absent, it w i as a strong claim. From his recolle&ion of what passed•on, _the former day, he conceived there was such an understanding. • The ATTORNEY-GENERAL contended that there had been an understanding that farther 'delay would be requisite. He hithself had suggested to his Hon. Friend the Probable absence of his Counsel (Mr. Serjeant Lens and , Mr.. Scarlett) on Circuit at the time when fixed by the Noble Lord, while the Counsel for the Petitioners; one of the ablest and best conversant with. the Eleaton• Laws (Mr. Plo titer), never did go. Circuit. The Noble Lord him self allowed that the subje& of the Circuit was men-_ tioned. If it was, ,no other understanding con sistent with propriety or common sense could have prevailed.. Mr. PERCIVAL conceived the idea of further de lay to have been thrown out by :th e Right` Hon. Gentleman .rather in a tone of triumph than as ,a pledge or understanding. It was as if the Hon. Gentleman meant to say the Petitioners would al ways put off the business, and•never bring it to trial. Mr. SHERIDAN said, if he had not understood there was a compaa, for further delay beyond the • Circuit; he would not, in the former instance, have consented to a delay of an - hour. Mr. PETER MOORE said he had . advised his Right Honourable Friend on the former occasion, not to assent to the delay proposed by the Noble. Lord on any conditions. It was impossible :he Could have assented, t without the compaet now claimed . • Lord FOLKESTONE offered. some observations in vindication of the ,charataer of Mr. Paull from the imputation of intending to entrap Mr. Sheridan,. by bringing on the trial with all the benefit of ,his own Counsel's assistance, while . ' the Sitting Member's Counsel would - be on Crcait. - After a few words in explanation between Mr. MOORE and Mr. PERCIVAL, relative to the extent of the delay now wished for, a diviSion took place, For Mr. Sheridan's Motion, 167—Against it 12. The day, for which the Petition now stands for consideration, 'we understand to be Tuesday, the 21stAp;il. On the suggestion of Lord Howrcx, the other public business, not being likely to take up much time, was proceeded upon, prior to the hearing .of Counsel against the Bin for abolishing the Slave Trade. The SPEAKER informed the House, that, as Mon day se'unight would be the last day on which Peti tions for Private Bills could be received, and as two days in the next week woulli betaken up in some de gree with Eledtion Ballots, &c. he would come down to the House on Monday, and the other days, at three o'clock, for the convenience of such Gentle men as tnay have Petitions to present. Lord TEMPLE presented a Petition from certain Persons concernt-d in the West India Trade, against the Bill for abolishing the Slave Trade. • Mr. MANNINO pres'ented a Petition from certain Ship-owners, 'against the Continuance of the TOn nage Duty, atc:zrding to the new Plan of Finance. Aiderntait COMBE presented a ,Petition from certain Persons: concerned in the •African Trade, against the Sierra Leone Bill. A P‘ tiCon was also presented from the South-Sea Compvny, against the South American Trade Bill. All these Petitions were ordered to lie on the ta ble. • IRTSE-I.BUSINESS. Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved the Order of the aty tin• going into a Committee of Ways and Me2ns. House having resolved itself into. a Commit tee. Sir JOHN . NEWPORT said, that as there was business - of very considerable importance, which would call foi• the consideration Of the House that day, he was happy that it would not' be necessary for hint to occupy much of "the time of the Com mittee, in explaining the nature of the Resolutions which' he meant to propose, because he had only to move the re-enadmeat.of:thOse :Irish Duties and Taxes which were annually voted,.and which wonld expire on the 25th of March next. There .were; lowever, some slight alterations which he meant to propose, and to which he wished to call the atten tion ( f the o)mmittee. In the first place he wish ed to state, that in consequence of an exemption which he had the honour to propose last year, for tne purpose of relieving the lower classes of people from - the operation of a heavy tax' upon houses, some very opulent farmers had taken advantage of, this exemption, which was only intended for the re lief of yery poor persons, and had evaded the pay ment of the Tax. In order, 'therefore to prevent persons who could afford it, from withholding their c.ontributiOn from the public reve:me, by occupying houses- of small. value, though they might - rent a considerable portion of land, he should : propose that, instead of a tax of 65. upon houses, above the value of 51. yearly rent, all 'houses and theland held with it, above the value of 41. and under 71, yearly rent, should pay a duty of Is. 6d. ; those above 71. and under 101: should pay 25. provided they did not pay the Hearth Money Duty ; if they did,, then they were to be exempt. All houses and land above 101. and under 401. to pay 3d. in the Pound ; and those front 401. upwards, to pay 4d. in the Pound, if they • did not pay the Window Tax. By, this: regulation he hoped to prevent that evasion which he, had mentioned. He had also to propose an additional Duty upon Jaunting Cars, and upon Hearths, and also a small increase upon Horses, in cases were. more than 4 horses were kept by the same person; and he wished to state also, that he intended that Batchelors, liable to. these duties, should pay half as much .more as Married .Men. the, duty Upon Licences he proposed a small redudion, for the purpose of pieventing some frauds and evasions which had been pra6lised, particUlfirly in - -large ci ties. Au exemption. as draWback had been allowed in certain cases, which had been .fund to b. intro dataive of frauds, 'and to diminish the Ta ;. hz: therefore proposed to take away the exemption, and in some degree to diminish .the duty on the Licence, There was no other article of moment to which he wished to call the attention of the Committee, ex cept with respect to Paper. In Ireland the duty was laid on the Mill, at a certain rate per Pound, but some frauds had been pra6lised, which it was the obje& of this regulation to . preVent. He also wished to 'propoSe, in souse iastances, an increase of the Excise Duties, and to diminish the Customs, because it was found more . easy to prevent frauds in' the colleaion of the inland Duties of excise than in Custom Duties. These were all the points to which it was necessary to call the attentic n of the Commit tee. He therefore.concluded with moving the usual Resolutions. Colonel BARRY said, the Right Honourable Bart. bad mentioned an increase in the Tax on Hearths, but he had not .stated the amount of the proposed increase. Sir JOHN NEWPORT. replied, that at, present four hearths payed 1 os. 6d: he proposed that they should ,pay 3s. each, or 12s. ; five hearths, 17s. 6d. ; six hearths, 4s. each ; and so going on at the: rate till they came to fifteen hearths; from fifteen to twen ty he proposed that they should pay ins. each ; from twenty to thirty, t6s. each ; and above thirty, each. Mr. ROSE asked, whether the duties which the Right Hon. Baronet had proposed were all annual duties. Sir ,TOHN" NEWPORT said, he thanked the Rt. Hon. Gentleman for having proposed that question, because he had omitted to state that.it was his in. tention to propose that these duties should in future be' made perpetual instead of being voted annually, from which considerable inconvenience had ensued. When he, used the word perpetual, he of course meant that they,should be liable to be altered Qr repealed by Parliament, as the taxes in this Country were. ,Mr..ROSE said, he did not see any objection to these taxes being made permanent ; it was, how, ever, a considerable change in the financial syStem of Ireland, and he supposed the Right Hon. Baronet had giien due notice in that Country of his inten. tion to Make the alteration. With respe& to the increase which the Right Hon. Baronet had men tioned in the duty upon horses, he did not see why the increase should not attach at an earlier number than four hordes. Sir • JOHN NEWPORT said, that very ample notice indeed had been given of the intention of making these .duties permanent. *A Right Hon. Friend of his, who had preceded him in the Office he now held, (Mr. Corry) had three years ago stated the necessity of adopting this measure, and last year he had himself given express notice of his intention to propose it this year. With respect to the duty upon horses, he had not proposed 'the increase of duty upon a less number of horses than four, because there was in Ireland a stronger feeling with r6speet to the pleasure and comfort of keeping a horse than there was in this Country. This was a local Aetna, and as the public exigencies did not require that die . tax should commence at a smaller number, he thought it was his duty to resped that feeling. The Resolutions were then agreed to, and the Re port ordered to be received on Monday. The Turkey Tobacco Bill was read a third time. Sir JOHd NEWPORT moved the Order of the My for going into a Committee of Supply. The several Petitions from the different public Charities in Ireland were referred to the said Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that having explained the nature of the several Petitions when he present ed them, it Would only be necessary fOr him to 11,10ve them„ He then moved for the folloWing saws. MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES. 'lrish currency, ,C a. Civil Buildings c . . 25.060 0 2/. Printing Statutes' , - - i. i 200 0 ' 0 3. Proclamations .., - r 0.500 o 0 4. Printing and Stationery .. . 2i, zaB 0 0 S. Criminal Prosecutions - - 25,000. 0 o 6. Public Offenders - _ ~ 2500 0 0 7. Non-conforming Ministers - . 9429 IS • 8. Pratique - - - . 1047 . la 2 9. Cold Mine - - . . rOOO 0 0 so. Public Officers - - - 1750. o. o ii. Treasury Incidents - - - 3500 .0 0 li. Linen Manufacture - - - 21,600 o 0 13. First Fruits- --' - - sOOO 0 0 14. Cloth- 5 Battle-axe Guards - . ' 74 0 0 0 as. ing • Heralds, Pursuivants, of , C. - 1086 o 0 x 6. Charter Schools . - - 2A,621 o o r 7. Foundling Hospital ' . ... 22,500 .o 0 IS. Hibernian Marine Society - - 160 9 0 , 0 19. Hibernian School - - - - 11,626 0 0 20. Female Orphan House - . ',=. 'lwo ci" 0 21. Discountenancing Vice • - ' - 12 62 0 0 22. Lock Hospital - - - 7957 0 0 23. House of Ineittstry - • - ' - 22,162 0 0 24. Fever Hospital - - - - 3092 ri 0 2i. Lying-Inn Hospital - - 2500 o 0 26. Charitable Donations . - • - 400 0 0 27. Roman Catholic Seminary -• ' - 13,000 0 0 28., Sfeevens's HoSpital - - - - 503 ,0 0 29. College of Surgeons - - 6000 0 0 30. Dublin Society, -.- - 12,000 0.0 31. Farming Society . - 5000 0 0 32. Paving and Lighting - ~ 10 ,000 0' o 33 i Wide Streets ' - - - - '4500 00, 34. S. P. Dunn's,Flospital, for the purpose of Establishing a School of Physic 6ciou o-• o On the Resolution fir making a Grant towards defraying the expence of the Association for Dis countenancing Vice; - • ' Mr. FiERBEitT rose, and stated some obje&ions to such a Grant, 'being made by Government towards that Institution. • Mr. CORMY observed, that it was a provision at:Wally made by the Compaa' entered into at the Union, among other charitable Grants • formerly made by the Irish Parliament"; and, theretbre, it would be unjust to •deprive 'lreland yt those.ad_ vantages which the inhabitants formerly enjor'J. He approved highly of the HOti. Gentleman's vigi lance in guarding the public pitrse against. abust::; but,'wifil regard to that body; he begged to inform him, that it was a Parliamentary Corporation. Af ter the statement which he had heard an Hon. Gen tlemao •ma4e-lasi night in'the He relative to the better education of the Poor, he could not but re joiec in'seeing those benefits that the Honourable Gentletriiiii . lad so well described so conspicuous in the preSent i'fistarie; by the progesj which educa tion had macie under the superintentiuce of that Tiarticular Corporation. • If the Hon. Gentleman who opposed that. Grant ,had adverted to these .ad vantages, be was sure he would not -have'objeaed to it. Mr. WILBERfORCE said Le deemed it proper fc,r him to say a woro Of two cm this suttea,, it ; was one with which he was prdtty well acquainted'. There is ; said he, in the capital - of this Island, a great fund of .wealth, a large portion of which is distributed with readiness towards all institutions for the relief of those in need : Ireland, we know, was not so favoured ; and therefore it was. not un natural to think, that the Parliament of that country deemed it necessary to make certain Grants to such benevolent Institutions, from time to time ; and I ,feel desirous, therefore, that no steps should be taken by the United Parliament to injure those charitable Institutions which existed before the Union. So far frorn decreasing those Grants, I should rather think of voting them additions. With regard to the particular Society now under consideration, I can venture to say, that there never was any of a more judicious and beneficial description. The ob jed of rendering th e • Scriptures b e tt er k nown, i s t h e mostjust and precise mode of doing good. We know, that the reformation of religion, throughout Europe, has been greatly owing to the general dif fusion of the Scriptures. in the vulgar tongue. - On , these grounds, therefore, he should give his hearty assent to'the grant. • The Resolution was then agreed to. On the Resolution for the -grant of 13,0001. to the Roman Catholic Seminary being proposed, Mr. PERCIIfiIL rose, and stated, that he ob jeCted to this proposed increase to that institution. He thought there was great impolicy in promoting . a Catholic Establishment in Ireland. He unCer - stood that this was for the purpose of supporting the College of Maynooth, for the education of Popish' Clergymen, which, as it was originally esta-, blished, was only to cost Government, 80001. per annum, but thaw it was raised to 13,0001. This was a very .large addition to the original sum, and as the addition was intended for the purpose of. in ' creasing the buildings Of , that Seminary, which would gradually bring on claims for .an increase of its inhabitants also, there was no saying where those applications for additional assistance were .to end. We should find that institution going on increasing from year. to year, and' vying with the College of Dublin itself. This he thought would be secondary to establishing the Ro man Catholic Religion in Ireland, and therefore lie found it to be consistent with his duty to express his negative to the granting of such an increase. Sir JOHN NEIPPO:IiT rose, and addressed the Chairman nearly as. follows :—" Sir, I am' much astonished at the objection which has been started by the Right Hon: Gentleman ; or, that be should form the conclusion from any thing I have pro posed, that a large increased deMand must be made every year. This present demand is only made for the purpose of ere&ing additional buildings ; but in order tq do away th e o bj e ai ons w hi c h have been •• oeen stated, I must trouble the Committee with a few observations upon the origin of the Institution in question. Previous to the Revolution, and pre vious to the establishment of this College, Cler gymen of the Roman Catholic persuasion were edtica.ted abroad. That mode could hardly be' thought the most preferable for men who were to live under the British Government. The question resolved itself to this, whether Parliament should think it best - that Roman CathOlie Priests should receive their education abroad, or that a very large proportion of the population of Ireland should be left without the means of instruEtion in the Religion of their fathers ? —and whether it is better to allow the Subjeas of Ireland to be educated by an enlightened or by an unenlightened priesthood ? In consequence of the. events which had happened upon the Continent, the sons of Ca tholics in Ireland, intended for the Church, could -not be educated, and there was not a sufficient num ber of Priests to supply the place of those who died, or became by age and infirmity unfit for duty, and ruany parishes were left formerly without the means of instru&ion. However much the Right Honour able, Gentleman might wish to diminish the Grants Made by Parliament, I am convinced that the House must see the propriety of instructing the people of Ireland, bY Means of Clergymen of their own persua sion. I 'As to an increase of the number of scholars, I May only observe, that the Professors appointed for the two hundred already admitted, might be suf ficient /4. The education of three hundred scholars'; so that althOugh there Should be, at any future pe,. riod, an addition of one hundred to their present 'number, the additional Ckpence upon that score would be but trifling... • Mr. HERBERT said,. that of all the subjeEts which 'll7eWkirt) had brought forward, Right Hon. cone g a ßrt v a ei n more. pleasure than the o ne Under consideration. He knew well that not any thing could tend more to confirm and establish the prin ciples of loyalty in Ireland, than instruaing them in the Religion they profess, and making them feel that they are Assisted in their laudable pursuits by the liberal support of the Government under 'Whkoft they.live. M. 'PERCIVAL added, that he did .not conceive that this Institution applied merely . to she educa tion of Catholic Priests... He thought it was likely also to * be used for the education of the Roman Catholic Gentry, when he considered that there were no less than eighteen different descriptions of masters for the education of 209 scholars. , The Institution was therefore impolitic. Previous to this establishment, RoMan Catholic Gentlemen were eBucAted at Pjotestant seminaries. Their being educated at' a Catholic seminary was liable to make,, their contra& habits early life which might after- Wards prOve prejudicial to the State, or at least to the, established religion of the Country. He would not so much quarrel with the present proposed in crease, were be assured that there would not be annually applications made for similar increases ; but:next year there would perhaps be an applica tion for an additional support for another 100 scho lars, which, at the presentrate of 251. each, would be 25001. • . Sir JOHN NEWPORT—" There is a secondary' College for the instruction of Catholic laymen, I which has nothing to do with Parliamentary grants. I believe, however, that the Priests' College does also afford instruction to the Lay College, and that the instrudors z're paid for so doing, as they were allo . viecl very 10 kalarieS. I 'believe' the highest professors have'fobly gol. a year, and the average of the others. betwixt 601. and 801. This practice could not; lipwever, be the intention of Govern limit at the time of the institution of the Priests' College, as the Lay College was not established till four oz five years' afterwards. The Professors were originally appointed from amongst a yerv. 'oyal et of persons, wilt) having been prosecuted in France; were driven from their situations in their native Ccuntry, and took refuge m Ir .and, where it was thought better to give them such situations, than to support them as idle members of society." Mr. GR4TTJIN said, that the question was, whether Parliament should think it was most pru dent to instrud the Roman Catholic Laity, by RoMan Catholic Priesthood of a foreign - education, or to enable them both to be instructed at home ? By Parliament going further in their support; they will enable the Catholic Priests to procnre their edu cation at home, and a fatal policy would be avoided, more dangerouS than ever existed even in titnes of Catholic .superstition. ;In his mind, therefore, it was a most prudential step that the Irish Parlia ment had adopted; when they established,an Insti tution tbr - the itistruaion of Catholic Priests in Ireland, because it was the most probable means of amalgamating, as .it were, the two religions. For that purpose too, he did not objed to the Laity of Ireland being so instructed. 'When he considered- tilt) sum necessary to accomplish that desirable - end',' he' could not help thinking it was exceedingly small, compared with the object in view. It, '.era? surely a small expence incurred, when Parliament ; by giving 13,0001. a year, aftbrd ed the means of instru&ing three and a half mil lions of people. He could not think that any per .son should complain of any prodigality in a mea snre.so favourable to the general policy of the Coun try. What was there, he would ask, that ought to be more an object of the public care than the home education of the Catholics ? "In so much," said Mr. Qtat6n, " as the home education of the Bo man Catholics of Ireland produces, allegiance, in so much does 4 foreign education tend to produce their Air. kdNKES said, he thought this matter came before the House, not as a fixed but as a growing Establishment ; and, therefore, it became the House to look to it in various points of view. It was evidently a matter of increased expenditure almost unlimited. The expellee of the education of Priests must increase in proportion to the demand for them. Who could say - that _A a Professors, or even 1800 of them, would be sufficient These Colleges were principally for the higher, and not for the lower oider of the people. Could there be_a doubt that, this tends to keep up the spirit of the Catholic Religion in Ireland ? He cautioned the- House to pause before they determined upon such an im portant point. It looked like what he should always deprecate, the establishment of the Cathtilic gion, which he deemed to be dangerous and sub versive of Government. Captain 1.-/EOERT. said, that if this measure was to. introduce the Catholic Religion, as the. Hon. Gentleman who sp o k e l ast supposed, it should in deed make him pause long betbre he assented to it. If it was acknowledged (as it seemed to be) that iewas ., a preferable scheme to educate Priests here, - rather than abroad, Whence they were likely to bring home most dangerous principles, he was sure that it must al so be acknowledged that the, total absence of well educated Pastors would ten d t :g produce a most pernicious influence, by a total van of religious principles. He - begged, to remind the Hon, Gentleman who opposed the. scheme, that the danger he alluded to had already bean proved in, France. There the 11011,1 an Catholic Priets were driven from home, and Protestants were allowed to remain.--.Was it to be argued that Protestant Chris tians have thereby increased in that country ?, 1 - 10 believed not, a n d certa i n l y t h e num b er of Catholic Christians had been woefully and sadly diminished. Lord ST4NL EY said a few words in Support of the Resolution, a s be thought it Would. not tend to increase the Catholic Religion, but ultimately to. en courage that of the Protestants. The Resolution which had givqn rise to. this dist cussion was then put and carried, fhe .other Resolutions were severally agreed, to; the Hou se resume d, an d t h e Report was ordered to be received on Monday next. SLAVE TRADE Lord Howtcx mixed . the Order of the Day fop the second reading cf the. Slave Trade Abolition Bill ; which was read a second time ; and on the Motion, for calling Counsel— . General GASCOYNE and Mr. EULLE E wished to, pa off the hearing, on account of the lateness, of the. hour. Lord liag'lCK. said, that it was that hou; (near ni ne o'clock) .when the best attendance was. likely to be procuyed. Coupsel were theta called in.• Mr. Dallas appeal - 4 for the Jamaica Merchants ,and Planters ; Mr. Alexander, for the Merchants who were engaged in'tlke. trad e to the Coast OlAfri-. ca ; Mr. Scarlett, for the. Nand of Trinidad ; and Mr. Clarke, for the peoplo,oi Livet'pool conneaect with the trade. , Mr. Dallas was heard at ' , Treat length against the Silt. A short •conversatio; then took place with •,.. rispea to the propriety of- hearing evidence, when it wasdetermined that no . further evidt:nc . e s.vas ne cessary. Mr. Alexander was then heard on the same side. When he withdrew— General GASCOYNE again moved, that Mr. Aiex ander be allowed to call witnesses in support of his statement ; but upon the question being put, it Was negatived. Mr. Scarlett was then called in, and after hearing him, the same motion as to hearing evidence was repeated. Mr. HLBBERT again impressed on the House the propriety of calling evidence. Lord HOWICK said, he had no objetaions to Coun sel being again called, in order to state precisely what were the particular points on which they meant to adduce evidence. Mr. Scar . lett was again called in, and stated, that the evidence he meant to adduce related to the loss that would be sustained by the new Planters of Trinidad, by the Abolition of the Slave Trade. Mr. WILBERFORCE' and Mr. ROSE thought it would be most regular to hear this evidence when the question of Compensation t the Planters came under discussion. Mr. HowoRTH spke in favour of the claims f the Planters of Trull iad. Lord. HOW ECK dithered his sentiments at sonm length, against receiving ;trey ev icknee in the present stage of the . busine,s. BARHAM spoke in favour of the claims of the Planters. General 4 3."—ICJYNE expressed his saustatlion at