The Sun. — London, England, 1802-02-09 00:00:00

t HOUSE OF PEERS, SCOTS APPEAL. SIR WILL, AUGUSTUS CUNNINGHAM ROUSE OF .COMMONS, MONDAY S FEB. S. IMPERItIL PARLIAMENT. MONDAY, FEB. 8. THE consideration of the Standing Order, rela tive to Petitions for Irish Bills, upon which their Lordships were summoned, was postponed till to morrow. BART. AND OTHER , ,, v. HIGGINS, ASSIGNEE OF THE HON HENRY ERSKINE, &C. Mr. ADAM, as leading Counsel for the Appel lants, was heard at considerable length ; after which, their Lordships postponed the further hear ing of the case till to-morrow. A _variety of private business was disposed of. Crewe's Divorce Bill, on which, in consequence of what took place towards the close of last SessiOn, the proceedings commence de novo, was formally introduced; it was intituled "A Bill to dissolve the marriage between Richard Crewe, Esq. and Mill_ borough Allpress, his now wife." The proper Offi cer laid a fresh copy of the proceedings in the Ec clesiastical Courts before the House, and the Bill was ordered to be read a second time on Thursday, the 25th inst. The Earl of CARLISLE, on seeing Lord Ho- BART in his place, rose, and observed that a cir cumstance of serious - political importance was gene rally understood to have occurred, respeding which, he thought, some information should be had from His Majesty's Ministers. He alluded to the event of the sailing of a second Fleet from the ports of France, as stated, for the East Indies r —ln remark ing this, he adverted, to what passed on a former occasion, when he had called for information re lative to the departure of the Brest Fleet, respe6t ing which, he understood that communications had been received by - Ministers from France.—He wished therefore to know whether Any com munication had been received in the present instance, which'he seemed to think was one of a more serious nature than the former, as the fleet which was lately said to have sailed from France could not have similar objeas with that which was sent out against St. Domingo. ' Lord HOBART said, it was his wish to afford every proper information in his power, on the part of His Majesty's Government - , for the satisfaction of the HOuse : in the present case, in which he con ceived the Noble Earl to advert to the circumstance of aldet stated by him to have lately sailed from France, be could only say, that Ministers had not received any communication on the subje6t, and that he did not know of such a :feet having sailed. An Officer from the Bank of England presented Accounts of certain Monies expended by the Com missioners of the National Debt for One Year, ending 3 s January, 802, which were ordered to lie on the Table. Their Lordships then adjourned till to-morrow. AN Account was presented from the Bank of 'England of, the receipt and expenditure of the Com missioners for the Reduttion of the National Debt for one year, ending the 31st of January i 801 which was oidered to lie on the Table. A new Writ was ordered for the Borough of Jedburgh, in the room of RORERT BAIRD, Esq. who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. Mr. j'exYLL presented a Petition from the Pri soners confined for Debt in the King's Bench Prison, and also a Petition from the Prisoners confined for Debt in the County Gaol of Cardigan; severally praying for relief—which were respectively ordered to lie on the Table. SUPPLY. Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply—which was read a first time. On the question fir the second reading, Mr. MARTIN said, he . took the liberty, in the Committee, to say a few words relative to the Ac counts then under consideration. What he then said appeared to excite the displeasure of the Right 1-lon. Gentleman over the way (the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER), as well as of other Hon. Gen tlemen. There was no man more anxious than him_ self not to give offence, but it was his way to state his opinion, and speak his mind openly and freely ; be was extremely sorry, at the same time, if he had given any offence to the Right Hon. Gentleman, ibr whom he had the highest respell; and esteem. With regard to the Paper containing an account of the distribution of the sum of z,000,0601. he had not altered his opinion, and he was sure it could not meet with the approbation of the Gentlemen of that House ; he wished it could be read in every Market-place in the Kingdom. He was content to bear patiently whatever remarks might be made up_ on his conduct, whilst he shielded himself by an honest discharge of his duty. It appeared by, the manner in which the War had been supported, as if we had no Navy, or else why resort for aid to the Forces of the German Princes ? He should always he happy to give. Ministers his support, whenever he conceived they deserved it, but he deprecated that sort of negative support which had been given to Ministers, by some Gentlemen, who, if such an Account had been presented at a former period, would have testified, in the strongest terms, their disapprobation. The CHANCELLOR .of the EXCHEQUER Laid,• the Hon. Gentleman had expressed in terms extremely gratifying to himself his concern at having excited his (the CHANCELLOR of the Ex_ CH supposed displeasure...He assured that Hon. Gentleman, that he did not mean to express any such displeasure. He could not, however, help feeling some em'otion when .an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ronsox) thought proper to bring forward a charge against His Majesty's Ministers of scan dalous peculation, and when another Hon. Gentle man (Mr. MARTIN) arose to support those asser.. tions which the former Hon. Gentleman" had brought forward without giving a ' moment's time to His Majesty's Ministers to answer the charges and in *inuations which had been. urged agalait them. The accounts had been laid before the Hodse, but the papers containing the account' of the distri_ bution of the sum of 2,000,0001. granted by the vote of credit was not referred to the Committee, the only paper that was referred to the Committee being the account of the Extraordinary Expenses of the Army, not provided for by Parliament. , The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ro,BsoN), however, with that liberal allowance from the Committee, which was generally granted to Gentlemen, and which he wished always to be granted, commented not only upon the account which Was a&ually refereed to them, but also upon those papers which were not before the Committee. He did think that the Hon. Gentle man (Mr. MARTIN) need not express his gratitude to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. RossoN) for his exertions, and join with him in inculpating His Majesty's Ministers, before he had heard the answer of those Ministers. The Hon. Gentleman had said, he wished the paper containing the distribu tion of the vote of credit of z,000,0001. to be read in every Market-place in the kingdom ; he (the CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER) also « ished it, might be read in every Market-place in the King dom with comments, but not those of the Hon. Gentleman. Whilst he was upon his legs, 'he wished to correft an error which-had arisen rela tive to the Navy Del4t, the excess of which for the' year .180 1, beyond that of the year a 800, amounted to 367,0001. This .excess had arisen from various causes, which could not be foreseen by him in June last, -when he stated the amount as likely to be less than that of the preceding year. The expences attending the Egyptian Expedition, and the Com_ . missariat, for which he was not at all blameable, it , being impossible for him to foresee them, nor had they been _foreseen by the most experienced Offi ters-, even by Sir RALPH ABERCOMBY himself, whose estimate of the expences of that Expedition fell short of the sums which were actually - wanted for that service, had materially contributed to this excess, as had also those increased expences which it was well known had unavoidably arisen in the , viaualling department of the Naval Service. Had. not the sum arising from the vote of credit been partly diverted from its intended purpose to be applied to the payment of those.increased.expences, the Navy Debt for 180 I would, as he stated it, -have fallen short of that of 1800. All these points were, however, still ope r a for examination, and still sub jed to the opinion of those Gentlemen who wished to comment upon them. He trusted.however, that no Gentleman would make a general charge against ' His Majesty's Ministers,-but lay his finger at once upon the item to which he objected. He wished the Accounts to be examined ; it was the duty of the Members of that House to investigatelhem all ; his olje&ion was to general charges being made against His Majesty's Ministers, instead of specific objedions, Mr. MARTIN and the CHANCELLOR Of the Ex- CHEQUER severally explained. Mr. T 1 E RNEY said, he should be sorry to trouble the House with many observations, bat the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. MARTIN) must forgive him if he could not give way to those jealousies of His Majesty's' Ministers, which some Gentlemen seem ed inclined to entertain, whilst he saw no cause for any such jealousy. He was sure his Hon. Friend would not say, that - mere suspicion was to authorize an Hon. Gentleman to reject, without a close and sedulous examination, Accounts, that were bfot,ght before Parliament. Besides, in the Account before the House, was included Money which was to be considered as impressed for certain Services, and of which an account was still to be given. With re spe6t to the •Army axtraordinaries, the House now stood in a different situation to what it formerly did :—formerly the Army Extraordinaries were not known until the amount of the actual expence in curred was brought before Parliament ; now it - was known that there would be Army Extra. ordinaries, and they were provided for accordingly. The late CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had altered the mode formerly adopted by bringing down an estimate at the commencement of the Session, of the Army Extraordinaries for 'the en. suing year, of the di str ib ut i on o f w hi c h sum an account was afterwards laid before Parliament. He knew of no method of discussing the Army Ex traordinaries until they were brought before Par liament. He should be extremely sorry, however, that it should be thought that he was satisfied with the accounts upon the Table, he expressed himself; on the contrary, dissatisfied with them ; and that it was the duty of the Members of tbat House to watch over the expenditure of the Public money, with the most extreme care and attention, there could be no doubt: There was one article in the ac count, which he could not pass by without ani maticersion, this was with respeci to coals going to Gibraltar ; it appeared that the demurrage upon this article amounted to 61. per chaldron, a charge so enormous, as to require a stria investigation. He thought that a waste of the Public Money evidently appeared in these accounts, and that the finances of the Country were not managed in that economical manner as a man would manage his own private concerns. Having said thus much of the-. Accounts, he would say, that he believed that many. of the sums contained in them, belonged to the late Administration, and were now brought forward for the first time. He was sorry not to see the late Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place. —The Estimates of the Army Extraordinaries brought forward by the late Chancellor of the Ex- chequer, were generally found renmrkably accurate, the actual amount of the expenditure seldom ex ceedino• the estimate by more th an 2 or 3000 1, I t now became a question whether he did not keep back sums, which if brought forward as they ought to have been, would have considerably exceeded in the amount, the estimates he formed for it now appeared when we had arrived at a happy period of Peace, , and the Ac counts were in consequence wound up, that the present Chancellor of the Ex- chequer ;vas saddled with the odium of -bringing forward Accounts, for not half the sums contained in which, he was responsible. Why did not the late Chancellor 'of the Exchequer come down and state than those sums contained in the Accounts which were paid for- services during his. Adinini_ sttation were his, and take the responsibility or them upon himself ? He wante4 dates to the Ac cuunts that he might distinguislJbetween the cx. pences incurred by the late and present Administra. tibti'. He wanted to know when the different Bills had been drawo, which it appeared had been paiby the Treasury. There were several items relative to subsidies ; why were not these brought forward by the late CHANCELLOR of the Ex - cllEnuEß • This deserved the attention of the House. It ap peared now that 'most enormous sums had been kept back by the late Administration, and had been. suffered to press upon, and burden the finances of ' this Country until a new Administration were cm . pelled • ) bring them forward. It was formerly the custom . to vote'the Army Extraordinaries after an. examination of 'the different articles, but, lately.a. pratlie had arisen, to which he objected, of bring ing. forward lumping sums, instead of individual articles. It was true the articles were previously examined by the Commissioners of Accounts, but he did not like that the power of Pailiarnent should be given up to Commissioners of Accounts ; was the duty of the Members of that House to in- vestigate for themselves, and ground their vote upon that investigation If Gentlemen would now investigate a little, they would find that a sum of 25,000,0001., must now be brought forward, of the expenditure of which no account' whatever' had been given by the CHANCELLOR of the Ex- CHEQUER. He thought that a commisAon ought to be appointed to investigate the expenditure of that stun, when perhaps strange - things. would come our. All he- could do at present was, to express , a wish for farther information relative to the Army , Extraordinaries ; he knew this was not the day on which he could disows them. He did not know whether any-Gentleman would be induced to move forsuch a commissi: - :n, but an alarming expendituri: had been going on, which had not been 'communi cated to Parliament, and he was anxious to have the accounts of the late Administration thoroughly investigated. He assurer; the- Hon. Gentleman (Mr. MARTIN), that he knew nothing of -negative support ; he supported the Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER), because he was convinced that Right Hon... Gentleman was economical in the expenditure of the public money; beyond that his support could not be asked by that Right Hon. Gentleman: He should continue to support His Majesty's Ministers, until he saw suffi cient reason tb alter his opinion. Mr. STEELE said; Lis Right Hon;Yriend (Mr. PITT) was not present to answer the accusations - of the Hon. Gentleman as to the expenditure, of the Public Money, but he could assure the House, that the Account alluded to by . the Hon. Gentleman, which was now before the House, was, as every other had been, framed in as clear a manner, as the nature of the materials of which it was corn posed would admit,. and the nature of the respedive services was as clearly, defined as it possibly could be. He did not know whether the Hon. Gentleman meant to convey a censure against the Officers whO made out the Account, but the fag was, that every sum was passed at the Pay-Office and countersigned at the Treasury ; nor was any sum conveyed into, the shape of a Warrant until it had undergone most careful examination. . With respea to the article of coals alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. TIRNEr),,he could not say but that the sum . was large, but surely it was, too much for that Hon. Gentleman to say, :that the sum - was too large, without at the same time adverting to the expence of insurance and a variety of cat.iies which must tend to increase the expense of conveying coals to Gibraltar, very materially. He did not think the Hon. Gentleman had established any one of his ob.. jeaions. The Account of the Army Extraordinaries was made out from the 2,ith Dec. z 800, to the 24th Dec. z 8o r, accorditzg to the express direaion at an Al of Parliament. It was clear that the sums con tained in that Accour t ..vere paid within the twelve months. It might be said, that the dates ought to be given 'to the sums paid, but that could be' of little importance. Was there any ground for supposing thiit there was any concealment of expendiitire on the part of the late Administration, or that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer ever intended to throw any. odium upon the present Ministry ?—He would say, in the absence of his Right Hon. Friend, that no such suggestion ever operated on his mind. Services :had been fairly brought forward in the accounts for which warrants had been regularly made out. He was ready to admit, at the same time, that sums might remain due at the close of the year tBOO, which were paid in the course of the year 180 r. This was the case with respe& to the Sub sidy to the Landgrave of Hesse, who sent a special ; Minister in the year 1800 to advocate his claims, about which there: had been some dispute, but which were at length settled in the year 1801. If the Hon. Gentleman supposed any other reason why they were ,ont . sooner settled, he was mistaken,— With resped to the KING of SARDINIA,. 100,0001. out of the 200,0001. the amount o hiS SubsidY, had been paid to that Monarch, as was stated on a former evening by the Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHAN. FL LOR of the Ex on Etzt Ex) ; but in consequence of the misfortunes which it was well known befel that Prince, the remaining sum was withheld until last year, when it was agreed to be paid by instalments, as had been stated on a former evening. He did not recollet any other sum in the accounts which was liable to the same objection. As to the suppo.; sitime of the Hon. Gentleman, -that his Right Hon. Friend had kept back sums which had been expended, • and had not•brought them before Parliament, it was entirely without foundation. It seemed, however, that his Right Hon. Friend was charged with altering the established mode of btinging forward the Army Extraordinaries ; he did so ; he found it to be the general sense of the House that a previous estimate. should be brought forward, instead of voting them after the expCnce had been incurred ;• and. he in, consequence adopted that plan, the sum was voted in the first instance, b 1 the application. of which . his Right Hon. Friend afterwards brought for Ward a sufficient explanation. An Hon. Gentleman (Mr. ROBs9N)lbad made a suggestion in the Committee, which, had that. Hon. Gentleman examined the At- count to which he alluded, he never would hive made; he 'had however annexed. to one of -the articles. in •thc Account, .a meaning with which every one must be struck. Finding a" paynien; of zoo,oool. to Lord MINto, the Hon. Gentleinan would not ask for w.hat yor?ose this money vlits paid, he would not wait for an explanatiOny but Immediately chose to consider it as a prov:si° ll , af a retired Minister ; sure ly ibis was not ri le . W 1 le' in which Accounts were to be examincd• re d, Accounts were thoroughly and fairly invest i ga i li, then let diem be a pp rove d or con d emn ed ; " bo a cers presented false an d gar bl e d A ccoun ts, let , dt he accused ; but surely the Accounts shoul d tha t. first fairly investig a t e d. He felt anxious fc ,as ;; v el) ..office. to whioliohc-had-the honour-to , belbtagY . , o ut as fbr other offices whose duty it was to ma ke t o Accounts for the purpose o f being presen te d e'- that House. Wi t h. respea to the itenasof the ie count which had proceeded from his 0 1-ce ' • o r; should be always happy to give every: inforillj tl 2 , in his power. He had, in his official situaticli log Paymaster, no disc ret i o n w i t h resped to the t paid, it bei n g mere l y hi s -d uty to pay then!; ljpt e ri the same. time, he could not suppose for a that any of ;them "were improperly „ t or respet indeed t o t h e Bill s - d rawn b y rise Paymasters, there were certain tegulations tht they must conform, in order that their Bills 11)15 rei be honoured, in which the Paymasterhad a d' s i c los e tionary power, as he might refuse to honour of Bills. He was not aware of any other article 00 required explanation, but he must repeat that 110 sum could be stated to be improperly paid. Mr. TJ ERNE Y explained: f e STEEL, said, that he was confident ti e was not a single instance of that having h'rP: su g , which the H on . G ent l eman had'expressCd a F e od, %ion of having lipppened, and up o n which . i'ecoso thought fit to censure the late Chancellor A c.. Exchequer, na me ly, ' t h at ' o f w i t hh o ldin g ' itn)' . b y count in such •a manner as to d ece i ve P ar liautel l i ` oo e concealing it, at the- time 'when it ought tc. been disclosed. There wa s no suc h i nsta nce. 0) Accounts could not he ready when the setv;cr e t s j o y which they related, c a me t o b e m a d e i i p,"and tit 0 were necessarily delayed. on th at acco unt b l , Was confident there hadr:been no unnecessary ti c ol , s e nor any attempt whatever to conceal frOm the, io li Accounts when they could fairly have been e.' fi The CHANCELLOR of the EXC HEQV - . 5 1 , e 0 that with reference to the item which had .oc commented _upon by . the - Hon. Gentleman 01 ) re.., to-him (Mr. TIERNEY), for .Freiglif,. st Dell'A",' l 7,o I Insurance, &c. it s h ou ld h e underood that not follow atilt governmeni• was citargeahle either delay, 'negligence, or pr o f us i on , becaus e , : to sum•was so large. The delay . might adverse-wind s , th e want of convoy ,' an a reani,i o gf r causes which .create le n g t h. o f voyag e hot 1 4. Gentleman in the House was desirous to : hav e particulars of the Account upo n t hi s h e ad of o diture, or any other, and should call for perfatly ready to afford every information power. ." He should have no hesitation whate' ' • abr. i giving, it. A great dea . l. of observation itYv o LT , made on Accounts at the time of winding tin e n o t ‘vh,ich was the case preseKt . ; •but „there , w as o " single itern.'which it Would 'not be a pleasur i e to explain as far as he was able • upon ,ber - confident it would appear in the result that ' l ' o lo negligence nor profusion could be fairly irl u i e vet: to His Majesty's Ministers, in any part of the Public Expenditure. t i t Air. NICHOLLS said, th a t no Member of House deserved, to have more regard give' 1 ft' s opinion than an Hon. Gentleman op o„ s iac et . ty. (Mr. MARTIN). He was W e lt k now n " e ' l lie C have given his opinion upon Party m o tive s ',alo was there ever a man, he believed, who Or al- l;t 1 $ opinion with more integrity or sagacity, lieved him to have been almost always rig l ' t, , a t judgment; and his independence was such, t ,7dbo man ever knew what his opinion was, or•tv' u til l . , rc ti 1 ,1 upon any sUbjea in debate 'until he deity , - ' that House.-Such esteem, Mr, NictioL;;Der," had he for the sentiments of that 11,11. I\ ` e r that he never could differ from him witll° I ,` , ; l oitlf' e trusting himself ; but although this was his be must still say, th a t wh atever pro fusi°'' . .., appear in the Acc o u n t s now before the 14 0 ''''. 0 "orl' i CH ANC EL LOR of the EXC EQU ER was 110 t 01 , 4 able for any of it. The expellee" of the art'; pt , appeared - under the head of tae ,` " Army of l ,. s , ' ‘l ii L) , I ) he agreed was enormous. Egeptian ge tion, however, was not a measure for 3C / present CHANCELLOR' of the 14:xoncour-g . countable—he received it from his prede ce i a I P ; All the Extraordinaries, as they appeared Account, were moniesadvanecd on accolifi t l e ul", the Expedition was commenced—all the 21„ ; ad, of which were not yet come home. The o f r', don having commenced, the CHANG E L;(* )14 :„ t! 1. 0 Excx EQUER could not prudently do other wl o ' r t t' ' e the Bills that were drawn to suPP' e tfY i measure§ taken to carry the Expedition int?"; In this Situation, the CHANCELLOR of the QUE R could do no otherwise than he did, ' l : Ani t t, he could not prudently d o ot h erw i s e, for.;oal" g mischief might have been th e effect of his ing supplies : that is, infinite tnisehief inig e f„ 13° j followed, not only ' w the Expedition also to the Service in genera l, if t h e Tre 3su. :e e , said, " these Bills are so e n o rmous t hat we c. fsl', pay them.'"—Not only the purposes of tear C", e ditioh might have bee n f rustrate d, but IR 'manders in every part of the Service W o ` ll, 11° 0 .a been afterwards afraid of d raw i ng ‘Bills at 8 ) sly ever essenti a l - the Service migh t b e for Bills were drawn. He therefore was most " of opinion, that these Bills being drao ll ' c o' ought to. have been accepted.--Now, " eI 4V not blame the present CHANCELLOR of tlke io tir l y Qv It for the Expedition i tse lf, no t for the Bills drawn for the purpose of defr,iTill , pence of it, he could not olatne h;tri l aof r e ii still he thought there.ought to he an ac; Q ; co l dered of this business.--,When this account fl ey dered, and if the House should see the -" o too t been profusely expended, be hoped the . 1 Jol' eyr ' 1 1 ,4 say so.—lf it should appear that the ' ° o ; l 4P,' o , not been profusely, but had all been " 1 ; 3 1 ., c 'oil laid out, he hoped this Expedi t i o n won ) " 4 %4. 16 tic - son to mankind upon Exp e di t i on s, for it .`, vi „, of he h, him - a matter of doubt, whether, upon Veenle t of • that. subjed, it would Not have of r .,cP ter for this Country, if t h a t P'l rt ,i l e 1 , 13. 0 world bad been suffered to remain in of the French, than by addi , g, as it 11 , a so s O tr ia such a load to ' - the burthens of thi s ,'..- Novv o as to the iuestiaa of support ”ii