The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-24 00:00:00

PAR. I4MENT. HOUSE Of PEERS, TUESDAY; ?,40.Ckl' 23. - f-ord ,neyANL.vr, in consequence of the .conti, raanee of -ihe LORD' CHANCFI,I,OIt'S indisposition, 6fficiateci itig4tl this day as SPEAKER. The various Bilis before the floUse were for- • :warded irr their respeeti7e'Stagis. 4mopg these, were the Irish Taxes, the Marine Mutiny, and the Felons Transportation Bills, which Were read a third time, passed, and a Message • . sent to acquaint the Cornmonsth.erewith. The Report of .t s he Committee to. wham it was.• referred to consider the clauses in the Union AEI, .relatiye to the Peerage- of 'lreland, was presented Lord \ \ A LSI NOH.A.M. and 4.)6 his' Lordship's Motion, ordered to be taken into consideration. on Thursday. A . pri , /ate Bill .was brought up from the Com-• mons by Mr. S. 13,.1RNAR and read a first time, after Which their Lordships adjourned tilt to-mor row, when a Commission 'takes place for the pur- pose of declaring the Royal Assent to certain Bills:.` HOUSE. OF pOMMONS, ;VARC4 23 : s A 4s/leaaage horn the Lora *tatco p t hat their Lordships lied agreed, to the Irish Duty Bill, the Mutiny Bill, the. Marine Mutiny Bill, the Felons Transpoetation Phil, anti several private Bills. The Seca seee:ay at WAR brought op the Esti mates of the Militia Service. Ordered to lie . on Table. The SEC.RET!:.RY P..T . WAR said, that he hoped the HOuse would permit him to propose to .vote them to -Morrow, in the Committee of Supply. . Mr, CW? RY said, he rose pursuant to his No tice, to move for Certain Papers fespeeting the Miscel laneous Services of Ireland,: The House was aware, that there Was a general order for the'produaion of _lsstimatis for the Serviceof the yeare he un derstood that Order correftly, it applied to Ire_ land as well as to England.' If, howevcr e there was any difference Of Opinion upon the subjeff, he hoped he should be set right, because it wes his wishil every respea, to ccinform•tia the Wiles:of the Hotise. He` therefore begged' to. aSk, whether_ that Order .was to be tindltstaod as 'applying to..lzelansi. (Tl.ie (;etteral Order for the . prodtaion of Estintatea:for the Service of the year.) The SPEAKER' said . ; it would be better far the Right Hon. 'GentleMari to move to discharge that. Order, and to move afresh one, Mr. - Coßtur then moved, that the Estimates for the Misceltan'eona Services - of 'lreland for the year 48oz, be laid before the House.—Ordered. Mr. Cottaee then brought up the Estimates of the Miscellaneous Services for -that Part.. of the - United Kingdom called Ireland, for the year iBoz. They Were read 'at the Table, and consisted Of - Praticpae, Dublin Port Charges, for apprehending Public Of fenders, and for Criminal Prosecutions, forpetoting Proclamation - s, for printing and Stationary for ruliticpflces, for Treasury loCidents - , ,for building Law Courts, and for cloathing the: Battle; Axe 6uards.—Ordered to lie on the Table. • , • Mr. .CiiRRI" said, he begged leave to treapaSs upon the ,I-louse, with a few observations by way of explanation with regard to some petitions which ise wished. to 'present:to the Hotise.: Someofthem related to services' for which public Parliamentary Grants, had usually been made in the Parliament of Ireland, and they. were - therefore 'deemed Public ServiCes. But, according to the 'forms bf this House tuanf of them wailld Come under the descrip_ tion of PriVate, not of l'ubtic 'Services. It would therefore be necessary that.they should be preceded • by Petitions" freat; the -parties playing fur relief. ,He should tlserefore, with the permission• of the House, present these Petitions, which were lit ge neral front Corporate Bodies in Irehind, - praying for the aid of Pzirliament. If it should he the pleasure Of the House - to receive these Petitions, he would afterwards move for the Estimates of the Expence and by procceeding in this manner, the House would be in possession 'of every necessary inforMatiou upon the subject. He should, there s tbre, how pro pose to present these Petitiooi. He was aware that As they were applications for Public-Money, it watild be necessary that they should have the appro. ation of the Crown ; but it was necessary he sho - uld say a word - With re,ipeft. teethe form in which altese Petitions were drawn pp. The 'Petitioners, W.lao were not conversant with the. toms of the House, - had stated in the Petition, the amount of . the sums requisite, fill those service's: this, he was aware, was not parliamentary, beeatise it was not Conformable to 'the rules of the House,, that the. sum should be stated 'in the Petition. But he trusted, under all the circumstances, that .the House Would not think it necessary to reject' these Petitions ; Awning, as they did, from persons who- were not conversant with' the rules of the House, and who • also resided 'at such a distance us to render it diffi s cult to procure fresh fetitioni in time. There s was another point of. which he Wished to apprize the House, Which Was, that the 'Petitiorith, desiring to give the House every information in rheir poWere had annrlceti ..i4...,stitiatts to their Petition. He was * Aware that this was not regular, but as, in some stances, theEat;matea were distinfl froM the Peti tion, he would take away the Estimate, and merely pre s ent the He Could riot take away cer tain-words• of reference to those Estimates in the Pe titlarks ; but he trusted, that such words as " ac - cording to the Estimates annexed, 3 ). and which he 'could not take vitt of the Petitions, would not prove . fatal to them. The Objeft of ilie.lirat Petition he bad to present was, for' the Maintenance of the Pro testant Charter Schools in Ireland. ;They had sub sisted for above half a century 'in Ireland, and had been prodpetive of great ativantages, and it was an Institution for which Public Pro Vision had always been made in Ireland. Mr. CORRY then brought up the Petition. • The CHANCELLOR oft be EXCHEQUER . said, . he Lad no difficulty instating the recommendation of the Crown to the - objeft of?this Petition . ; but he wished to observe, that it was always held to 'be an objection to a Petition; if it was too - minute, and (articular, WL:I regai:d to the Petitions stating Atie spetikc sum which would be wanting, he de sired tv he understood, that when he approved of the general purpose of the reeitiqus, and gave the recommendation of the Crown, yet he by no means , pledged himself as ,to the particular sum, His Right Hon. 'Friend had stated, that .there ..were , Estimate's attacho to some of the Petitions . ; hut he MUSE be aware that the House could not proceed upon those Estimates ; indeed, his Right Hon. Friend had stated the circumstance apologetically, and had expressed his intention of moving for fresh , ,Estimates. The present Petition,• however, was , not liable to this objeftion, 'for it did ,not specify any bum, and, therefore, he' had no objeftion ,to pate the .recommendation of the Crown to, it. ROBS ON said there were tao Petitions pre_ sented last year. Mr. LORRY said, that last Session ; the,House, in their kindness to•lteland, in which it had never been" defipient 4 , and' knowing that the People of ' that Country , were inexperienced in the forms of the House, had dispensed with those'torms which required that Petitions should be presented. . , . Mr. . ALE,X4NDER said, that in Ireland these were considered as Public . Services, and did not re , quire Petitions. Mr: ROBsOrr explained,' 7,rbe Petition was then ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. Coa.Por brought, up .ix:Petition from the House of .Industry, ill Dublin; he said, this was , an Institution which produced the greatest benefits. to that Country, and was perhaps the best managed Institution of the kind in any Country. There being no Poor Laws in Ireland, the metropolis was .the place to which the unprovided Poor resorted; and indeed many persons who had no settlement in this Coontry found their way there. The objea of the Institution was to relieve the unfortunate, to e n courage industry, and to prevent idleness and drunkenness. The industry-which the persons re lieved were compelled to ex.err, contributed not in a very small degree to defray the expence of the Institution. The .SPEAKER OW, these *ere certainly in the nature of Private Petitions, the time for pre seritina which had elapsed. It was for the 'House to determine whether they Would dispenSe with the Order, or. whether they would niake a Special Order upon the occasion: . . Thf H ANC ELLgR. of the EXCHEQUER said, he was afraid that these Petitions were of a nature that could not be ,presented regularly. He remembered many Petitions a this nature,' one for' . instance from the African Conipany, and for a pub lie purpose ; which . the House would not"-ieceive iifter: the ;time for receiving private petitions had elapsed, until a petition was' presented for leave to present it.,Nyhether . Route would' make my distiation in this ease, ii . war, not fOr him . to say. Perhaps his Right Hon. Friend 'wotild delay pre sentiag•any more of these Petitions till to-rnorrcw, and in the Mean time the House 'Would have an T.- • portunity of cOnsidering the bubjed. . - Mr. CORRY said, he certainly was not aware of the .informality, but it was owing to the circum stance of the Services of Ireland not being re-, gulariy clasified, so that it was impossible to know Which came under the Bead of Private, and which cf Public Service, because many of these Services which were public in Ireland,' were 'considered as private here. He should now, with the permission of the House, withdraw the Petition,- and also for the present forbear .to present the others.. It would also be necessary to withdraw the other Petition which he had presented, but-as in that case-it would iiipear on 'the Journals as, being withdrawn, he should .be glad if it could .be passed sub silentio„ ;instead of being withdrawn. , The' S PEAKE-Rid, the Petition had been pre sented nd ordered to lie oh the Table : he thought the better way would be, to let it lie on the Table, till to-morrow, then'tilbVetti - diseliatge the Order, and then it would be as- if no such Petition hadbeen piesented. • . FOUR AND ONE-HALF PER CENT. DUTY. . Mr. TIEILNEY moved for an Account of the Amount of the • Charges,.and the net Produce of the 4.1. per Cerit. Duty, from the sth of April, 1775, to the sth. of April, 'Sot,. distinguishing each year. The CHANCELLOR of 'the EXHE CQUER said, that had not - a Motion .similar to the present been &allied by the House in the year 1736, he should have objeaed..to die produaion of the paper now called . for, as the produce of the 4 - per. Cent. Duty was at the exclusive disposal of His Majesty. He •wislied to state to the House what was Thum ture.of this fund.. ,At the time the Island of Bar_ badoes was purchased by the Crown of the Earl of Carlisle, the inhabitants were charged with certain imposts payable_ to the proprietor ; from the paypent Of Which, after the purthase of the Island, they were exonerated by the Crcjwn. In consideration of this a claim was made upon the Island of 42 per cent. upon its produce ; a similar' duty was imposed upon Nevis and MoniSerrat, and afterwards upon. St. Christopher's. There'. was no appropriation made . by any Ali, of any ram of the produce of this duty to' defray the eXpenCes of the establishinc.its in these Islan6, and it was well known, that the expences of such establishments had been aEtually `pail our of other funds. 'f his duty was in,fad the arsomil property of His Majesty : , and' he should have• taken this ,as .a. , ground of oblation to the motion, had it not been sanaioped by a 'former proc4.ding of the House, when, ; in the year 1786 a similar motion was granted. With that pre cedent before him, , be make` any ob.: jation to die Motion: . ROBSON said, .the fund hail not been ap-. 'plied according to its appropriation„ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he,WOuld_ost state to the 1-l9uSe. that His Majesty had, been graciously . pleased. to. appropriate . 172,0091. out of this 'fund in aid of the Civil List. The .Paper moved for Was' then ordered, •as was also another paper moved, for by.. Mr. TIP KNEY, being an Account of all Sums . charged on the 4.1 per Cent. Duty reinaining owstardiog on the sth of April, 1891, with the Sums appliciibie.tp ... . the charge thereof, , . iNMA. Me JONES aid,,, he ha,d stated to the I-louse in June last, that he should bring forwird a Mo tionteleive to the affairs of Xndist_ t t He herd wait ed, however, for the precerKe ofTi lion. Gentle_ man who' had, he believfd, - been only - once in his place this Session, but the information , Which had been lately received from that quarter — The SPEAKER Old, - he - Oust re:6lll' ar - Theltt tention of the Rouse, the pra&ice which had been adopted of confining an Hon. Member giVitig 110tACC.. of a notion, strictly to that .nokice l Mr. JONES . then was his 4vish to bring forward a. Motion relative .to the FOlyeas War,,on that day fortnight (next TuesdAy week). .- TRtATIN,G ACT. • - • , _ _ Lord BELGIt Ai'. a brought up the Treating At't Bill—which was read a .first On the question for the second reading ? Mr. CORRY said, he did. not .wish to- take up the time,of the House, but he observed that - the Bill only extended to than pat rot the—Uniteel-King-- dom called Great Britain ? and did not; 'extend . to Ireland. He should only Say that he thought it would be necessary to turn their . agiention to' this subjea, and to consider whether the-plavisions of the Bill should not be extended t6' Ireland. He should not now give an opinion ittpon ; . *_subjen, as he merely wished . 'to call the attention of the House to it. If the LawS relatiye subjea were to continue in Ireland on the saine footing a$ they were before, it might be an_aukward circum.. tance for different decision; to take place relative to Eleaions in Great Britain and Eleaions in Ire,- land. He merely threw this out for-the considera tion of the Howe. The Bill was then ordered trr beread--a -second tirne, and p - be printed. • •, • • CIVIL LIST.. Tke CHANCELLOR ej tke EXCHE QU E R said, that understanding several MemberS of the House .were of .opinion., that the intervening time between the delivery of the printed Copie4. of - the Report relative to the Civil List, and Friday, vas insufficient for the proper - consideration of that Report, fie thought it,adv sable, to Cxtena the notice he 'had given relative to that subjeft, :and:to give notice that he should ? On'Mpt?day next, Move to refer the'Report.to the Conamiftee of Sup: ply. He must, he said,. fairly own, on looking at the Report, that it required more time fir its consideration ; and if he had heth • aware,of "that circumstance,' he IS:mid have- prolv,ased'a longer interval ; he should therefor...on Monday move to refer it to the Committee of Supply. . - GRENADA MERCHANTS. Mr. 'Ann' GTON brought up a, Bill to extend the., time for the Payment of the Loan advanced to the Merchants of Grenada, which was read a first time.' On the question for the. second reading, Mr. JONES wished to know whether this mea sure was consented to by His Majesty's Ministers. He did not wish to oppose the second reading - , but he thought, that ether persons t(i whom Loans had been advanced, might apply for time on the same ground. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was of opinion, that the time for the pay- • ment of this,Loan ought to be. further extended un der all the circumstances. of ,difficulty pld .. distt:ess in which ! these Islands were placed. There was evi dence before the House of the expediency and the justice of a Wither' extension of the tithe. 1 He did not think it a light matter to graqt a further exten slot) of the time—it was an intlulgencei' but he: thought, that under the - ptessure And the difßulties . in which the parties %vete : involve4, 40 - made the , application for such indulgence, that their applica tion. was deserving of. support. After a .„few words from General GAScOT9,, Mr. JoNrs in explanation, and'the CH:AN g fh L. LOR Of: the EXCHEQUER in explanation„ who observed, that the time to be granted would be a subje4 tors discussion in the Committee, the B 4 was ordered ; to be read a second time, on Tuesday..,,, ) -• • • CORON,ERL ••• Mr. /1144/IYWAR/NG moved: the Order of the Day for the second reading of the , Bill for increas, iing the Fees, Rates of Allowance for Travelling t Expences; &c. to CorOners._ The Ordev being read, he moved, 4 .‘ That this Bill he now, read , a, ,second time." 1141'. DICKINSON, jun. Was proceeding to oppose . it, when • • The SPEAKER suggested the propriety of - hear-: ing the Hon. Gentleman who brought in the Bill • in support of it,' first, as being consonant to prae.., tice incases where there was a difference of opinion. entertained ;• which course was adopted, according to the recommendation from the Chair. Arr. MAINWARING thenproc eeded to state the necessity of the measure nowbefo re the House ; the office of Coroner was highly important -to so ciety- 7 -they who filled it should be reasonably re warded for their labour. They had often indeed the most important concerns to• conduti--inquiries into murders.--lf, therefore, they were not fairly, and reasonably rewarded, there was a want of po.: licy in the State, nor would there be any volunteers whose services were worth accepting. The Office Of Coroner was an ancient offiee—it was originally executed without money, but it was found neces sary to provide that some money should be allowed to those who'executed the office, and that so,hing • ggci as the reign of HEN VII. which continued without alteration doWn to the 25th of • GEO.- 11. When the Fees were fixt, and had remained unalter ed to the present hour, which was now upwards of • fifty years. Now, comparing the rate of Fees of all professional men, seeing how they had advanced in that period, with those Fees which have been so long stationary ; considering how much difference there was made since that time in the price of every thing, and mare particularly in travelling, which had been doubled within these few years, and which was a constant expense on a Coroner, he trusted it would., appear to the House reasonable that' some advancemen t should take place in the Al ,. ces to be* ma d to those who filled such im portant Offices.— . =-If a Coroner went from Town to F Brompton, and took some refreshment on the road, he could not return at less expense than a guinea, whereas he Was allowed only 9d. per "rnitc it - - , sent. The Coroner was also obliged to atte the Assizes and at the Quarter Sessions, "'bieh as wi. attended with a considerable expence , which n'io'fa.. occur Zo the Committee to provide for, if it s houl 6 be the 4en:;?, Of the fica. .a e t o go ,iato i s upon tie Bill; but 'that was a matter upon. which he 'did no think necessary to say much at present.,--4.1a'14 wade these general observatioos .UpDli the Bill, ct} start or. say--7a-word or two fo r se f a by way of- ,reason for the. part, he - t ook-ia brie ing it forward, He knew no reason why le MIT/We'person chbaerri3 Ares . er a it to the' ll °6ses but the application was : made to hiM, -and he bal al4s)la thought it his duty measure he was desired to do, provine:d' such a mei sure was not in itself ars improper .are ; he t hought thisaivas not-only not an improper measure, but ol'e which was absolotely neeessary.—He knew than[Or, to laring forward eartrY n h e a C s o i t u n n a t t y i • experice of' carrying it into effea must come 0. t admittcd - t ° on li ,at e tTle a abt d to t b l e l 'a ic r b he. but this was a treasure of ile,cesitv—it was to OP' port all / dice rintimateirconneacd with rhe rical excellence of our Cooitittlaion, : ars office " c " 4 a ought o be executed with attivity and NiZOllf, aalia for which a liberal alloWance -ought Laa fII e ' I , or thtae reasons he supported this Bill. ~addi 60;1'31 borthens, Msa-73/C4/NSgis/ said, that the of "; raotiaLtsaas an ancient and important Office wag P- n i: propcsiiiort ,he assented to. That an addi tigr ' 9 ,l burthen ,to the - County, dates would fall on Oat was able to bear it, y:as.another sitivri lie ( -ss,seritcdto ; but that a fu: Cher renilm et a `; tion ought to bemade by' , th e Public to tho se filled th e o ffi ce 'of Cotoper;was a proposition sv a- ,. he . did not agree By the Statute of Westmihste: that OffiCe- was direaecf to -be executed by w ho ji t soever ,to? 14- it, without Fee or Rewaral a n t ; was made, penal to receive any Fee at all. P late: subsequent . periods, too remarkable for deP arl 'i i from those principles which had guided us - Adfrlinistration 'of the Laws for so many cerao-eit:', and which gained .us esteem for wisdom, Tees crud OrLd Allowances were Made to Coroners.': J aa w'ertyshillipgS fo_a_lnquest upon Murder, S ir e` :. pence per Mile for Traveling, proved of the principle of departingfrom oar an i c-1 syStem in these cases. When toeta took tO r'lerPoi selvei large landed possessions, the Chnstitati°lin•ca, this Country imposed on them certain slotie s r they were to perfciam in their station in Socie'A c at 'the purposenf supporting the bartnonY of it, d calling for pecupiary recompense. --f-TedisapP r %or therefore of the principle of this he kr' v ;lc; to what length it would go, for it was the ohar a '• of what was called Reformation, to have in it s those who wislito travel much further than was l '. n ; dertaken by hint who first went out oPon th , e-3 r l r ney, and mach further than he either ioteh",,.`` , ,, s e' wished. if This • Bill was entertained, the ' P ( l., a would abandon -the great principle of Lefaislat i°° ,.., had mentioned, and whicli he knew to be so irre' r ant to pur Constitution ; there was always a clan s o l in - aba n doning a geOeral principle,, for th e s3k l3 - t 'doing isrliat appeared to be Justice in soar; p ar tie° 1,6 case. If this Bill was to be entertained merelY ° Lc, ground that the office of Coroner was imP° ll4 ,:vaei and that the allowance to those who tilled i t tc , mt . too small, that would lead the way, iterhao entire change in the mode, not only of silk _ ing the Laws', but of enaCting them ; for i! t l x . ` 4 ' s a iSa swas.tobe entertained on this foundation, the trates,who attended the Quarter Sessions grattlitPutoe administering a very- &*oisitlerable pant Of the J ul fot i -of the Country, might say, the ' Office thef e - he a was imooltant, as most assuredly it was, a nti t a . l a they. might come -to the conclusion of app:Y,l e e',,,a, Parliament for remuneration. Nor was th',' t hat 'for Upon the 'same principle, the Members 4 -'! . 6 jiati House might very Justly say the office theY ' het ..4ha was important to the Publieaand that thereto end ..0 to have a remuneration, which he ag re oa to -ed would a very iMproper principle whel e rt of proceed in this Country, -- and yet to this 5° those rinciple did this Bill le;id. He thought that t o at - w ho brought forward this measure would :° i t' convinced of the propriety of not persistingl°o-anc for it -might call on the Legislature. to ex3llo%a -the whole system upon' which. Fees were ed to those who executed Offices like , of and might lead, perhaps, to' the aboh (l°- f ier 4 them. altogether, and a recurrence to the an. / system of gratuitous performance of these r 'a ity . duties. In point of faat, he doubted the neeelton• of this measure, even in the sense in which t he ~,SP Member who brought it forward, a pplied ' t bface far was it from being dangerous that th e nia ae, would be deserted unless this allowance w ere a l e nge' that the vacancies fur them were , to hi s kn° case9' c ont ested with great warmth, and, in tom s he d 1 0 enor mous expenee. For these reasons h e d th e oppose the Bill. He saw no use in ano w2nb in it' Bill to go into a Committee, for the fi lledßla n ' ll ' if they 'were to be filled up at all, must he . 1 . 5 , iti with sums of money to be allowed to CoNeatd, Ire addition to what they have already. In aw olie,aed to the Bill, in taro. ru b y Mr. HOBHOUSE said, he was glad this - f o r had excited attention : he took the libertY o f ing, it was a matter of great importance, e ag ree' the motion for leave to bring it forward. Fie t o 6°- that this was an Office of great cons equenc e iro dy' ciety. That it was in ancient tim es gra"' Itt 0 11 ! executed by men. of great landed p ro p ertY it u Ec time, none under the 'rank of Knig ht toolc himself, and he thought it would have hee'dieljitAle to - keep it in that channel, for it was a ity, thing that all those o ffi ces of pUblic nee e , ss r ay t ' the -abuse of which large penaltie s are Pr °l ;f tho se tached, should be committed tO t he charge the Whose possessions give ample security J° . en to- t e i . Merit of penalties, when any should hafl,'„ coo incurred. He agreed; howeverer, that 'De one s considerable fortune would mot take t h e r et o l ei a • they- must be entrusted - to persons of ati t coasiderable ; and if they would not re n t alto -out further remuneration than was at O s aw - eg a Coron b ;: e age; by law, it must be increased ; but he • 01- cessity for this, since whenever became vacant, there appeared a con shl i e l r at a vv a . § : e " , ness to fill it up, a course of thing s a , t wa s at r,s, inconsistent with the idea that the °ni ce asat e sent intolerably burthensome. As the of . r st easli e' ll ' therefore, not necessary for the wall -t o gas no to fill the Cdfiee," and as this me asure ga Il IQ p