The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-10 00:00:00

- ta r c tl a P cl ttant, that we not surer ourselves to z a i se Ped away by any general cry that ni;.g-lit be f aQs upon theaesubjet 3 / 4 , without ascertaining the lit.thete' was ano t her. point to consider, land L lat was, .a, m a t er i a l one . : He wished the Roo tal se to r e co il ed i n what Wars we ha d Continen tte.cethettionse and in what Warslwe had trot, and otnparethe result. The ,only War in ,which lvec had been engaged since-theaevolution, in which A rn a . cl nor- had any Continental Alliances-was the Nvlik e i rican W ar) and 'that was the only 'War in or .lw e were not successful . It was true, that in tear Wars v ac had sometimes failed, as far as. they t ri. .ed to Continental objects; but as far as then interests were concerned, we had been th e stan tlY successful, except only in the case of i ett ii i ltuerican war.—With this view of the sub lad r e Was not disposed-to renounce the opinion he n ar tnerly entertained upon it, at the same time p'aready to admit, that there ought to he great rudence used in entering into Continental Alli thee ' not only with resped to . the connexions • il lselves, b ut to t h e engag e men ts we entered into. a t m ° tight -not to enter. into engagements so loose of 'tsi it ° generally worded, as mighton the application defeat their own objed ; and he also th e st, that care ought to be taken not to pledge Wet"untry too deeply, because cireumstances 7 u t r e frequently liable to change:, He had no diiri saying, that he should not think he should Le :i s , c hltYi if maintaining the general principle, ev ere ' el uiti not endeavour to give it elfett when. tan at l L was able, according to eircumstancesesir_ and a ?r,,ed a as he had before stated, by prudence , ed to e tth . There was one point which tic, wishe, ter u a gude to respetlinge the failure of our. Conti oanexions last War. Insinuations ha d been thr `- bu ° : " nutethat this Connery bad mee wittenotbing t and that a nd breach .eri . faith from our Allies, t h la t as -section had been particularly exemp lifie d ) Qa t r case of Austria. . Irwe were to look at that Vi ler throughout the whole -course of the . Warn in : I 'bilethaps the re•might besome ground for regret tl- t -r re t iculas i nstan c e s, yet there were periods when. fi ug'er. nat....only displayed. the emosl tY an her engagements, but .the ,most heroic l e ;` ) L 'utiore, She did not conclude- the a iireaties of s„ -e rll or Luoeville, till. the iterynlast extremity, or when :site was prevented by the_ pressure and f or ge nty of ciseutnatances, from sending a Minister the purpose of obtaining our consent, which tens eate she had .askad, ewe could nor for Plo tentt ,have, refused. Before the concluson of• last re stY, she. spewed. a..-degree of fidelity, to her en. aa af gernentS. N eith us thaaeaver w as surpassed. For tet the. battle.• of .Marenko, she was stron gly and re peatedly „, urged by Fr an ce t o conc l u d e a s eparate l 'reaty, and :terms!. offered much, more favourable 2 5 a she afterwards obtained. Notwithstanding 'tery efforton the part of Fiance, Austria would 'tot make Peace,. till she was compelled by the fatal battle of Hohenlindert. All he . had, therefore, to beg 4 w , G . entlemen was, that when they spoke upon these tll T'as, they would do it alter some considerati on, a ti url not endeaaiOurio 'make impressions, in which knew they were not .warranted by ahe tide -,knew that, upon particular occasions, the e Millaropinion had completely changed upon the subject I • I Alliances. After the • r of Contmenta with 176 - 3, the cry was against all connexion ut lh the Continent ; and after that of 1783, in p u l l ell the want of Alliances had been felt, the po. ar Prejudice ran as strong in their favour.. He taa e es 'etialiat heltat tha the best and wist men fot 'urie - s had agreed in opinion-with respect to, the sPolicy of su c h Alliances, e lle should require . very fei g n& reasons, and . a great deal of experience be. r ne would venture to say they . were mistaken. 4 was not necessary f or hi tn to say any thing re l)rt%ng the amount o f t he proposed Establishment, because Very li tt l e .Objettion had been made to it. A I-I °n• Gentleman (Mr. - Fox) seemed to think ti at no change tvl)ich had taken - place , in the situa_ :e°`l Of Europe requ i re d an increase in' our Esta lsnm,ent. I t cou ld not be denied that the great t t ent of Coast which France had now obtained, 11 : number of h ar b ours which she had acquired, t i lst thake:a great difference' in our relative situa ,l.l(}n,• Fro m t h e Revoltition to the American War, .'hand was always either neutral or in alliance Nai tll this Country, and the Netherlands, till the r 1756, were in the power of a country in al dnce wish us. It was true, that at the end of the L a T s' et ,i`-sali War, Holland was in alliance with France, tr . e possessed her independence, and-there was a difference between a country being in alliance a t ' l " another, and being completely. dependant upon r That was one point of view in which this le at )-le i t had not been sufficiently considered. It aa"en said; that the House of Bourbon were It e ie 9 T, l ;td by the same motives of ambition: with the r atl T'utionary Governments of Franc''`- and were as aQt e h disposed to violate Treaties as any Govern aliant whatever ; this was true to a certain extent, I )er he was as ready as any. man, to condemn this k~ rt of th e policy of the House of Bourbon. But it ah : neee.ssary to consider, not. only their will, but % v it. Power to do mischief. The present Government ti e ra nee had the power of doing things, which the L aa us e of 'Bourbon, whatever its disposition might he, ; L e " fiat the means to.accomplish. A great deal had! en said, at different times, about persons looking ta7naLmeasures and not at meue . he confessed beea . " v ery much inclined to consider this as mere t and hy , cri •*3 or at least as proceeding from gt o , I c- = iarce. In o n e ' se nse, antflo a certain degree, `Yraust go.together. : If any Gentleman brought P°sarge against Ministers, it was absurd to sup_ e. that a man comet . e . R .- deniri -- mrairares and not ten to remove the men by whom they were• adopt, nun If th at H ouse we re to 'dkree in a resolution tai e s i n re th e. con d u d of the King's. Ministers , it or b t l i t to be f o ll owe d u p with a ,Motion f o r removal ta er l ose Ministers. Nothing in his opinion coniti be st er! ah urd tha n t &Suppose,ahat the system of Mini . ta Could be di sapprove d of, and.yet that they ought li be `ePt in Office, in h neves that they would adopt a "" conduit c ultra to that of which they were a oaen , c y ttl a L,° approve. But this principle had been pus not as sent) farther, and wan extent to which he could the s N l i sen tl If a Gentlenian said he disapproved of eas qres of P iminivratinne and therefore he •• - h tOul a . 11 possible, remove the Ministers, e understand lilln ; it wits fair, constitutiot 11 language. lie wotild even go farthetsesancl ad a a, that if the Measures of Ministers were even not condemned, but only not approved of, still it might be fair-to propose to remove the Ministers, 'but he had no conception of Gentlemen saying they approved of the measures, and would still, if possi ble, remove the men. If this principle was once -adopted, in what a situation, would the Constitution he placed. The,. light of that House to address His Majesty to remove, his Ministers, on proper grc i un da, was- - incontestible ; but to suppose that the House had a right to remove Ministers without assigning any public ground whatever, was incori. sistent with every principle of the constittition. It would take from the Crown - the right' of choosing its own Servants, and make the ,Ofce of Minister the subjei't of 'personal canvass. It' was true, that in 5784 there was an Addreis to remove Ministers, without any charge against their public conduCt; hut even in that case there was an allegation of their baying come,improperly into Office, though' that was found by no means to be the public' Opinion: - He wished' merely to be tried by his public' condul, and he could 'answer for himself, and he believed for his Colleagnes in Office, that if-Parliament disapproved of:their tnea. sures, they 'would not wish ro continue one rulo- . ment 'longer in Office. If their , measures - were not found -to be consistent with the lionour :and interests of the' Country, they would not at tempt to set up Prerogative against - Privilege, in any case where ihe'exeicise of the latter was really constitutional. if 'the Kilig had the nomination of his Ministers, Parlianient oughi -to control' them, tee watch over them, and -to examine their Mea sures ; and upon this principle - the safety of the Constitution depended:' He hoped that Parliament would always endeavour,to preserve -to. the Crown• its proper place in the Constitution, while 'they maintained their own Privileges, and to the °pi. , nion of Thrliament His Majesty:shiWinisters would' always submit themselves whetscrie2tlit was ex pressed. . Sir .FRANCIS BURDETT said, that in, his • opinion the ,question now before the House was as important a question ,as' ever was. offered for the considesation of Parliament, for it was, Whether. the Hou , e should agree to larger Militaq Establish tnent than ever : been offered at any former period in, time of Peace, .:and that on the' mere general around of the, situation of the Country and of Eu ope, withciut at all specifying what that sitaatioo was. He was desirous of delivering ,his, ,sentiments on thae,question, as well as to animadvert on some things which had fallen out in the course of the. Debate, which„ bad taken place on tilts subject.--- , One Honourable Gentleman had complained- that the . forms 'of the House - had not been duly complied I with, inasmuch as that there was not a regular communication from the Throne, whereon the House might aft, and be regularly Called upon toata that observation appeared to him to be founded on sound sense and good principle, and he thought it became Ministers, on such an occasion as this, to have laid some such, or 'some other authentic and, regular in foa-mation before the House, before they called upon ii to assent to such a vote as this. On the subjed of the Balance of Power of Europe, he said, he agreed with an Hon. Gentle Man opposite to him, (Ir. WILBERFORCE). He did not say that we should not have any Continental ConneCtion, but that we should, as much as - possible, abstain from becoming Principals in such connections, for that led. us to be concerned in the quar rels of others, in a manner that was highly in jurious to our interests ; we might, indeed, some times. add our weight, but we ought never to -ex bust our strength in the adjustment of Continental Disputes. A doarine contrary to this,had been too often followed, and it was a very objeetionable prac. rice, for it gave Ministers an opportunity of invol ving- the People of this Country in the at-tainment of objects, the interests of which to us might be very doubtful, .and sometimes might not, exist ; so that the people did not join in it, and thus a War might , be said, not to be the War of the People ; and this was of itself an evil. Many things, had been said concerning the talents of a Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. 1 31 1 . 1 . 1 . ), who had not vet attended in the present Parliament. Uralteasant as it was to speak of ,the charaftee of any man, yet the turn which part of the late Debates of the House had taken, rendered it necesary that he should say a few words upon that subjeA : it was an unpleasant, but it avast a public duty, afor a Member of' Parliament to de liver his opinion on .the charaCter of another, when- , ever that was made a subjea of reference to Public affairs. The Country was stated, by those who Most admired the abilities of that Right Hon. Gen tleman, and who now called for his return to power, to be in a state of the utmost danger ; they said, that the present moment was big with alarm—that the appearance of things was gloomy beyond former example. In allthis he agreed with those Gentlemen ; • 'but lie confessed they sur prized hint very much, by their expression of a desire to see that Right Hon. Gentleman in his for mer situation '; for he had' no . difficulty in saying, that it was his-opinion most of the difficulty which. we now felt was owing to that person. No indivi dual, in his opinion, had contributed so much to bring us into our present situation as that Right Hon. Gentleman. But it seemed that 99 people out of ;too were for the return,of that Gentleman to hi 3 former station. Who these' 99 were he,did not know. He did not say that he had,any peculiar means of arriving at the .koovidedge of the opinions of the Public, but from all the opPottnnities he had had, he was assured that ,no persons ever went out of office with more complete public indignation and 'hatred than - the late - Is . dininistiation.—With respen to the qwestion More iMmediatelY before the House, which - was a question' on the -Peace Establishmen!, it was' admitted to be great, because Ministers said we had no choice but that of two evils—that of the expellee of 'your own preparation on the one hand, and the French Power on the other._ He looked on the proposed Forec as very great ; but that was not *hat he obleCted to so 'much, as that this was only part' of - a system Which led to other much' more objeffionable Measures, such as Barracks, Pensions, and so forth, upon which topics he expa_ - tiated at considerable length, and contended that such a sy stem o f t hi n gs wa s delthive, and said, that •aotnethins •must be- done to regain the affections of " .. the People, (for he alledged that Gorernmen lost them).s-effe did,not pretend to say what parti tular _steps should be taken, perhaps he might think that putting an end to the system 'of Solitary Cells,, to begin Reform at the right end, those of Pen sions, &c. &c.—He concluded with bbserving, that although he was persuaded the last Administration went out of power With the oublieindignation, yet `of the present he would, say, (in civil language, for. no other had been provok - ed) . he did not thiok they pOssessed the public confidence.—He thodght the power of France, great as it was, was likely ,sooh to fall ; but that was nonao expenation` which child be calculated upon : he was ready to meet the datiier and vote confidence in Administration upon these terms, that they should possess, die confidence of the Public —that they should give a well-grounded expeda tion-of aßeform of all Abuses, &c. &c. but as that was not the case: at present,' he could not assent to the. Measure now proposed. - Mr. H. B -FA E said, that when the. Hon. Baronet took notice of the gloomy state of, this Country, and cens'ered the late Administration as the cause of it; it did not occur to him to• tell the Hotise in what other Country there was more genes. nil comforts for Mani td. Did he'think it was in Spain ? Did he think it was in Italy ? Did he think it was in the Netherlands ? D hhe think it was in Holland? Did he think it wait in SwitzertaA ? Did he think it was any Where `iny.irrope ? Or did he know. one spot on the face ofe the Globe in which there was more general comfort to mankind than there was in :England at this hour ? 0i would he point out to the House the spot which he would wish Great Britain: to - reskonble ? And then, when that question was determined, perhaps the other, on the trite charade( of the Lite Administration, would not be-difficult : For,. ih discussing that matter, the question would not be, what we - might have now of difficulty remaining, but 'Whit evils and horrors had we avoided, and for the avoiding which we were in debted - very MuChindeed Co the late Administration ? The,People. of England, he believed, felt pone of the indignation against the late Ministers which the Hon: Baronet, apprehended ; the People of England felt that they' had a _Constitution, for the pre servation of which they had not forgotten to who'll they were so much indebted, : nor did he 'be lieve they _needed much persuasion to be convinced,' that the measure now proposed was a measure for , their general welfare ; upon a cotiviCsion Of which, he did not believe there would appear in them any deficiency of sOir the'more especially,' when the ex cellent Speech of the Secretary, at' War yesserdav in that House, came to he circulated over the Country, which assuredly it would.. The People.of - England were a Commercial Peole, and therefore naturally loved Peace; 'hut they were likewise a w:irlike Peo ple, and knew how to ai in War, if War becaMe necessary. They were. always true to others, .and could be true to themselves. He was 'anxious to explain the principle• on which he should vote to night.. He did not mean to vote this Force for the purposes of aggression, - but in our own defence. As to invasion, it was not for invasion only that we were to be in readiness, but we must be ready to resist every infradibn of the Treaty of Atniens, or any danger to our own safety'. With regard to what had been said on-the subject of measures and men, he could riot eorweive how, in a political question, they could be separated. Had any Mi nister come to the House without any circumstances to justify it, and called far such a Force as this, he should not have voted for it ; but there was enough in the con tuft of, the Chief Consul of France to answer every thing on that head. He was pleased however to see to the conclutt of Ministers, 'and in their language, every thing that led to the 'con tinuance of Peace. He justified the Peace of Amiens, on the ground that when it was concluded, things were in such a condition,' that nothing could be gained by the War ; and as to Great Britain, not the least derogation of her dignity appeared on that event--on the contrary, it was highly to her. honour. It was true, indeed, that at that period the situation of Europe was much to be lamented, but that arose from no fault in Great Britain. With regard to the capacity of His Majesty's Ministers, he thought that their having been able to conduB she business of Copenhagen, and every thing; which related to the complicated concepts embraced by.the Treaty of 'Amiens, their being able to satisfyethe whole Body of the House of commons,.with the exception of a few ivai,;iduals:, by their Speeches in that House, he owned these things put together app tar ed to hint to give evidence of very great capacity. agreed with thou who made HOnour the dearest point to' a Nation, and, who said, an insult to a Nation's Honour was one of the first causes of just 'War. Honour, well ursderstOod, was the most valuable property of a nation, and he trusted that this Country, by preserving its Independence, held out a less o n worthy of example to all Europe. He concurred in this vote, not,for the purpose of meet ing War, hut to preserve the Honour of this Coun try', and to maintain. Peace. Sir F., Butt D E-rr explained,' Mr. CALCR Apr said, he saw no chance of the House coming to any thing like a division ; it was a wonder that so much dissension of sentiment or opinion should havobeen expressed ; however, that had in some measure made it necessary for, him to express his. He knew not where the Hon. Baronet had proct.red the information, that the late Admini stration was thought of with indignation, and that iu the present', the Public had no confidence. He believed, that his sources 'of Information were, at least, 'as _much entitled to credit as those who -in formed the Hob. Baronet on these subjeCts ; and he undertook, from his information, to say, that the Country felt esteem ftir the late AdMinistratiOns and that the present Administration had the con, fidence of the P / oblic.• He concluded with assenting to the Motion now before the House. Dr. I, AU'RE,NCE delivered'his sentiments upon the various topics which had been adverted to in the: course of the discussions, at considerablelength.--=- In the early parts of his speech hetootended gene rally, that the necessary information had not been communicated by His Majesty's Ministers to the House. , Macli had ,been said of the Financial circumstances of, , the Country, 'but were the statements of His, Majesty's 'First Minister on a former tight well-founded, this Country wa s in- a situation not tor crouch to France, vr tb'put u w aft,atar insults upon ars nonour. vvttn TCSpCCI to of National Honour, however,' some 'difference of opinion might arise, and he wished Ministers to be more explicit as to their real sense of it. Same parts of the conduct of France, he con ceived, not only to be National Insults, but 'Hos. tile Aggressions. After adverting to , her condutf, in the-at - fair of the German Indemnities, the subjec. tion of Switzerlami, the annexation of Piedmont, 3ze. he contended that the Treaty -or Amiens did not place us in a state of Peace or real Security, but, continually obliged us 'to keep in a defensive psi. , tion.—He alluded to the treatment experienced by the House of Orange ; by the Treaty of Ainiena it was .stipulated, ' that that House should be in demnified but no man could say that That sti.. pulation had been fulfilled. This . was a seri ous consideration. With resped to the point which, had been much dwelt upon on all sides of the House, that of the National Honour, a circumstance recently occurred which he contived to be 'closelyconnected, , with it. He alluded to the ‘affair of a very respect- able Gentleman, duly furnished I with passports, from the Government of this Country, and an firer in His Majesty's service, being Arrested. in Paris, by order of the French Government, and in , . inured in a dungeon.' Not only that, but order d, out of that. Country in twenty-four hours, an injundion which it was -impossible to obey.—n Would it be said that'this was not a case of national. honour ? and had thefe beep any reparation made for • it ? He then adverted to the circumstance of a per son -being prosecuted tit . this Cotintry, at the in stance „of the French Government, while, on_ the other hand, all the injurious language and invective which was poured out in the French.: Prints against the Government and .People of this Country, was - suifered to pass unnoticed. I,hes.e he . also conceived to be points not unconneded with, National Honout. He censured the idea that we, should have only a commercial race to run with: France, and he defended, in detail, the various ar., guments which had been urged against the Pacifica-, ,ion, and the subsequent conduCt of France, by : Gentlemen, at his side of. the, House. . The CIiANCELLOR of the ,EXCHEOUER ob. ; served, that there seemed to be a systematic deter„ mination e on the parr of some Gentlemen, to impress ; an opinion, that His Majesty's Ministers had cons. promised the Character, and. tarnished the Honour', of the Country: He deemed it unnecessary att to,follow the Sneech of the 'Hon. and Learned Gen. : tleman, the far greater part of whose Speech icier, red to topics which had no manner of .connection with the topics tinder discussion—he,should .confine his own observations to three or four poin:s :—:he Learned Gentleman had stated, in effect., that by he Article in the Treaty of Amiens; resped. : ing the' Indemnification of the House of .Orange, the honour of the Country 'had been commit.: ted, and that that pledge still continued unre. deemed, It was well known that on this point he had expressed himself far from being perfeCtlysatis fied at what- had been allotted as an Indemnity to the House of Oraoge. However, with respect to that subject, he hoped, before the Recess. (so we understood thei,Right Hon. Gentleman), he should have the llonour of making a Communication from His Majesty, respeding the House of Orange, ana which would manifest the feelings entertained by His Majesty for that . Illustrious, House ; and which propOsition was grounded on reciprocal cow, tnunications made between His Majesty's Mini sters and- persons in the confidence of the House of Orange : on this occasion the House • would be aft forded the opportunity of manifesting their sense Of the.transadions with resped to, that House, in a pro. per and correspondent manner. He could not then be more particular upon this subject, but he would, rejoice when the day should arrive, in which he should have the opportunity of making the commu nication. Another point adverted to, by the Learned Gentleman, was certain proceedings instituted in this Country, with respett to libellous,publications again'st' the Government of France. On this head he would only say, that the" French Government was entitled to that protedion in this Country, WhiCh the Government of every other Cduntry ex perieoced : it was equally -entitled to the same degree. 'of protedion, and neither mote nor lessi—He deeply regretted that it was not then in the-power of Government to produce those -official documents which would give the best and most de cisive answers to the imputations thrown out against Ministers, for not holding out that sort of language, nor pursuing that line of condud, which the honour of their Sovereign .and the character and honour of the' Country demanded.---With respect to what fell from the Learned Gentleman in regard to the affair of CaptnD'Auvergne, he could assure the Ho - use the instant it was known to the 'British Minister, his release was demanded, and that demand was im mediately complied with. How then could nisters be charged with comprosaiiing or losing sight of the honour of ,The Country; not only on that occasion, but in any other instance, let any Honourable Gentleman lay his finger upon any circumstance that has occurred, or any sentiment 'uttered that could justify such an imputation. They had spoken with regret of the increased power of Fiance, but had fairly contended, that such a Con sideration would not warrant them in ads of hosti. litye Gentlemen who disapproved of the conduit of Ministers adopted a wrong line of proceeding ort the present discussion. They should, in order re.. gularly to obtain the information so irregularly 'called for, move, that progress be reported, or for 4n adjournment of the debate, in order to move an Adress to His Majesty for the desired information. With resped to their arguments, , their tendency and scope went to spew the indispensable necessity for the Vote , before the House, and essentially to vindicate the conduct of Ministers on the present occasion. .. Mr. FOX spoke at considerable length, and with his accustomed ability, in refutation of the ploposi_ tions advanced by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke before the last. [The lateness 'of the hour at which they were delivered, pr,?cludes us from any but a very brief notice of this Hon. • Gentleman's and the subsequent Speeches.] Mr. Fox, in the course of his argument, avowed that the principle of National Honour was one of the most 'justifiable grounds for War .that could ex ist, and seemed to consider the case of Captain D'Auvergne, 'in that point of View, as One which,, il