The Sun. — London, England, 1807-02-14 00:00:00

LI )1 T-, :16 . insinnated,. that be had . the 4titllority of Golornment in, opposing him, and meant to open flit Borough; and bring in the Comtbonalty as voters ; hot as had been decided ,that' the: right of eletionlNds - in the Corporation, he' was obliged to abandon that ground as untenable. It was publiely, ackiitiwledg - ed that the patronage of Government was 'given to A. Taylor,. the Hon. Gentleinan who WW'rnt by Government to "o - Pptise hien: . I)laces which had been ftually. promised to s01.1;lp refused, and after qualifications were viven they could not obtain the warrants; but all were given to others - who sup; ported the other Candidate; These were - fa6ts that must excite disgust ; ,and after this, fur 'the Hon: Secretary to support an assertion that no iMprop i er influence had been used, was impossible. BIDDULPH rose in consequence of what had failed from . theHon...Gentlernin who had spOke )ast but one,, who said that he hoped the House Would join with him n censuring the conduit of these who had brought forward the etition. 'He, though of no party, differed widely from that Hon. Gentleman. If such a Petition was expresSed in de cent terms, he thought that.lhose who presented it deserved credit. for it, however lake they might have brought it under investigation. Some sentiments that had dropped from the Hun.' Secretary of the Trea sury he- had . beard with shrprie and regret. He had said that Government had as good a .right to Interfere in Elections as any Corporate. 80dy.... Ke -also said, that no improper • influence ,could everted without, his knowledge.. If that..i,vas the ca se , with how much suspicion' ought the exertion of any influence of his to be regarded?— Lis:letter, bore oir the face of it that it was on his Majesty's .service(ATßl : No!) : Well, on that Point be was glad to find he was mistaken ; but it was dated from the Treasury Chambers. Thu Treasury was, c . ontiedtt..4 with the Barrack DepPrt rt?ent, and the qt.iicer receiving. the letter might be very apt .to think that.it was of the, same nature and, • authority with the usual orders. The nature of the , tarmck Department was io b co nsidered : It ex-. llnded.not, only.over those employed under it,, but. also to those who, furnished barns, Vic. Be6des,, whpr4ver there were troops, the influence of' for hearance too might.be considerable, which, though less in degree, yet.effected a greater number. Wheta charge of.this sort-existed against a .Public Office• it ought to be investigated, and Mthere .could it LP itiv.e4tigated but in this House ? Mr. FIiXpIANTLg, in e.,•wlanation, said. that he ine a pt.that the individuals . in the Government had 42 4. 3. - s c i od a right to interfere as ,those of a Corporate body. As to ,tll other position,. lie only said that uncuntitutional- interference could not have come through the Treasury without his kno.wlecte—lbr 9tber. _Departments .he had , distinal) . ! stated .others Would be responsihle._ • Air. JENKINSON stated, that.thi Ob'eta Was to prevent the interference of Government in Eleeliens, and to punish such as bad interfered. This ierenee had been used against himself. In Dover, which he had the honour to represent, there were two 'descriptions of p.,:rsons-- 7 the one under.thein fluence of thy: Ordnance Board, the other under that of the Viaualling - Board. Soule thought they had doneenuogii to give one vote to the Government Candidate, while they gave him the other. But they told him that they hid received an eller, uri er pain of forfeiting their employment, to give both "te4or. the other Candidate, but that they, not with- - standing, resolved to keep tfue to their word. He, 0 motv.pver, had released them 5 but others had at tho altar"(the Eleclion being by custom held. in 'the churcl4 violated their . .prnmise, an(l VOted . against 11 .91. He felt himself .called. on therefore to resis,t such praaices. 4r. TlERNE Yobserved, that the mover and e -5941der of the Motion had at least the merit of having been candid and e:c.pliCit in their staternent- of fatits, and these being compNtely M the, possesSion of the House, there was no occasion to go into a Committee for the purpose of further investigation. What fur-; Oier had the House to learn ? The Honourable rOnet had read the P•azerS once, and some*of them even twice, and mad is observations updn. them. What then could be gained by going. into a Commit tee • . • 411 d he would nil:, Whetter such a breach of Privilege had been proved as to render the matter worthy . of investigation by a. Committee - of leges ? It had . been stated, that he' had said that the Petition had been too long delayed. He had said so, and avowed it. It 'was signed, he observed, by se veral Members of. Parliament, 'and these might have lg r exignt forward the business without any Petition, and ought to have done it the first monicnt it "was.possible. He (the Speaker) knew that such eras the anxiety of the House to consider questions of privileges, that they had the precedence of every other business, •and this •question would baVe been :discussed pven hetbre. his Majesty's Speech. The infyrence%he drew from this was, that they did not think this breach of privilege as one of .much conse quence, and had accordingly al.owed it to sleep for a time for some purpose" or other. It had been said, e did not know..with what truth, that it was in or . 4;let to find the right Petition, which an Honourable Gentleman .had signed, supposing it to be another Petition, and. lie was sorry he was not present ; for if he. had been in the House, he thought it probable he would have confessed ,that he did not know what. be had signed. His Honourable Friend (Mr. Freemantle) had observed, that he had no previous notice of the charge which it was meant to -: bring against him. But what could be said of (Mr. Jeffery's), who had brought -a. most seriou's Otarge against a Gentleman., not only without no t*, but even in his absence ? A more indeCorous, more unprecedented proceeding, and i condutt more improper from one Gentleman to another, never was • Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE rose and said; 11)t in the long time _that he had. sat. in Parliament, he never heard more improper .anal - more unparlia-7 mentary.language frem one Gentleman to - another. He Called.upon the Speaker tQ say,, whether that was proper language .to use in that" Rou sh ? The SPEAKER said, that in the sense in which the Hon. Gentleman understood them, the words Might as wells have been spared. - Mr. TIERNEY hr continuation asked, Whether it could be thought that it was his objea tonnake. tw o Gentlemen quarrel. If his words could be sup. Pcsed to have .that tendency, the Hon. Gentleman to be sure-had-lunch mended the matter.—He would no', however, be led away' by. the .broad hint which th e Henourable Gentleman. had. thrown • out... A Hon. C;:ntlemarr. over,tbe way (Mr:4le) .had said that thiS was unprecedented ctinduCl on the, part 04 . Government : Such a Petition as this •indeed, be Unprecedented, and yet,after all thes.st: eh of the Right Hon: Gentleman, he conic' find nt , tliing but this charge, Which, in truth, amounted t 6 no thing. Hit had been brought in as air illustration of something tNe—as other illustrations had heen made use of—then it might-have been good for something; but as it stood now, - It was nothing. What was the 'letter ? It: was oile by Which his Hon. Triend 4gged a favour of another person.— To , be vre, if he had been an older prai:titioner, 1i might h.e.'e I dated his letter from Stanhope-street; where he liVed, and sent it by his servant.' That Was the whole of the argument with respea to the date of the Treasury C hambers.But the :Gentlemen on the I other side were all aghast at the Treasury Chambers. But General Hewitt would know very well who Mr. ! Freemantle was, without the mention of the Trea- Sury Chambers, and could no doubt tell, at any rate, what part Government would wish him to take:--- If the letter had been sent to 'General . Hewitt to be !landed about, to `be sure that would • have been `another matter. But it was a private letter entirely. Then what effeEts had it been attended with ? What advantage had it produced ? It was not pretended that it had produced any. The Hon. Baronet knew the voters, and yet he could specify none that had been procured - by corrupt pradices. None were given or withheld in consequence of threats.—He could colled no precedents', becauSe no Opposition ever presented such d Petition. He defied them to shew one instance in which a threat had been employ ed by Government to influence a vote. The Oppo-, sition 'was- at present in its infancy; but everything .must. have a beginning, and he had no doubt that the Right Hon. Gentleman' over the way would . one day'pr-ove an excellent'leader. This; however, was an unfortunate commencement. In short,, this charge was completely frivolous, and every one must be .no less astonished than disgusted at seeing Such a, Petiticin from the, quarter from whence it came. — Party-feelings' might- be excusable. 'He himself had, perhaps been infl uenc ed by them- - but there Were, bounds even to party-feelings. This was a case which did not for a moment -Merit the attention • of the House, and could only operate to the prejudice of those by whom it had been brOng - ht forward. Sir H. IVILDMAY, in explanation, said he had stated only the written evidenee. There was much other evidence ready to be prodUced before the Coni mittee, not only with resped to the interference of the Treasury, but also of other Departments of Go- vernment, and particularly involving - the condud of , the Comptroller of the NavY. CANNING hoped the Hon. Gentleman who had spoke last on the other side would permit him to s qualify his observation, that nothing was so extraor dinary as a motion of this kind proceeding from the quarter in which it originated, by telling him, that it was equally extraordinary that such a motion should meet with such a reCeption in the quarter in - which it was opposed. In the earlier part of his Parliamentary life, he remembered motions of Par liatnentary Reform strongly urged by the Honourable Gentleman and those :about him; It was 'fortunate for the Country that •thfiSe Gentlemen were now. placed` ih a sitnation'in 'whia'their influence upon the Councils - of the Sovereign ; and the share they had in dire;;th'Jg the measures of Parliatnent, gave them an opportunity of carrying into effe& their ideas upon this subject. The Public would now know what were the Hun. Gentlemen's improved and corrected ideas with respect to the object for which they clamoured so loudly before. The whole of.. the Parliamentary Reform he- meant to carry into effect was, the unlimited and havefaeed interposition of that Govern ment inflUence, the exertion of'whiCh, they, without foundation, imputed to other Govern rnents as the worst of crimes.. It , was argued by the Hon. Gentleman, that because he and his friends had thought proper on former occasions to'prefer groundless complaints "of this nature, they may now in reality retort the evil ten fold, and this was the way the Hon. Gentleman and his friends redeemed their pledges of Parliamen tary P.-:form. The Hon. Gentle Man told the House; that it ought to see no grOund of suspicion in a letter written by the 'Secretary of the Treasury to Ulu Head of a' Principal Department of the Public Ser.- vice, a Department having greater influence in Ramp= shire than in any other County, to use-his influence "in favour of a particular candidate. He would not hiniself say that such a' letter was a.grOund for pro nouncing the writer and his principals guilty. But he thought the House would hardly be of opinion that there 'was not in it strong ground, for suspicion and for inquiry. He professed the .highest resped for the Honourable Gentleman whose name was coupled with' the charge preferred in the Petition.. - He had never heard the Hon. Gentleman's name mentioned otherwise. than with resped, except in the Petition. He had never witnessed a more ho nourable, a more candid, or a more affeeling appeal to the sense Of the HOuse, than the Honourable Gen tlenian had made. There was no _part of that appeal which was not creditable to the H6n. Gentle man as an indiVidual. Any complaint that his in terposition in the Eledion may be liable to, could attach only to his official capacity. Nothing • was more true than that the persons composing a Govern ment Were not disqualified from exerting their rights as - individuals in common with every Other subjea : but they should exert them With cautiOn, so that it should always appear to be the individual : right they exerted, and not the power and influence of Govern ment. The Hon.Gentlernan might have written to his private connexions and dependents, with. all possi ble zeal and ardour, to exert themselves,to promote the eleEtion of his friends. But the ground of com plaint was, that the letter was addressed, not by Mr. Freeniantle, a Gentleman of property, and a Freeholder of Hampshire, to General, Hewitt, a pen son of private connexions in that County, but from Mr. Freemantle, Secretary of the. Treasury, to Ge neral Hewitt, head of the. Barrack Department, 'claiming the exertions off, his influence through all - the ramifications, connexions, ,and -dependen cies of that Department. It could not justly be assumed, that this was the only instance of the undue interposition of Government ifs this Elec tion. The expression of his Hon. Friend (Sir H. Mildmay), " 020'th:see oinnes," was in itself a n assurance that there were many similar instances; and the Petition stated this one, nely as a specimen "of a multitude of otNer fads which were to by brought forward, aedewhich the Petitioners were ready to prove. It was not fur hip to say how far the alle . , . . .„. , gaifons Ot the, ni:!ae.out : but al ra Metiiber of Parliament ; he woUld r.ty ; thet titioners having Stated sueh fads, and liar inc_ declamd thenia‘elves ready to, peeve .would eequire tench strengei than he tp the dismissal of the Petition proper and rc2,,i)e.4. The - Hon. Gent. tovard, clo , :e SPeC.!CA), Cited :! limu(.r insiacce o: . :lt;:b2.hd of his o,lr. Jervoise) who had been ter eed out of the. rcpre-. sentation of the County of feet by the :interposi tion of the.pbwer of - G./Verne:eta ;, and . the Hon. Geetieniale argued from tia that. the interposition of :Caveieeneet to turn out it,u (rid Represeetetive,in the present instaece, was but tint rep, isal. But what it to the free:noldcrs or the county of Hauls, that their.i;:dependence to be continually ;: : invaded, because ,the reprisal was allowable on the . part of those who nay happen, to be at the time in power, and whose friend may formerly have received ,a wrong, which they think proper to retaliate. But was it to be argued .or suffered, that from .this assumed. Tight of party reprisal, the County of Hants shoald :be • eternally disfranebised-i If such .reprisals were.suf . feted, it could be only on the principle, that as. Hampshire was accustomed to such.invasions of its.. rights, it could suffer no pain from any fresh instance. :of it; a principle more unjust and more ontrageons than airy he had ever heard maintained? The Petition which had been. alluded. to by the Hon. Gentleman, • and in whath the movereaed seconder a the present Motion we-1e complai.tmnts, was exaa.lv similar to the present; the only difference was, that some of those who then.complained of the invasion; argued now,• 'that it would be foolish to listen , to a coMplaipt of similar invasion. The . complaint was ,then backed aloe by Lord Carn a rvon, id now Lord Carnarvon vase on the other : side.. , That was the only difference between the cases: Thezeneral principle of the ar gument of the Hon. Gentleman was, that because Hampshire was used to being wronged, Its wrongs, should never. be redressed ::tor when injuries of the highest magnitude; were stated, it was thought quite sufficient in bar of redress-to -turn round short, and' state,:that others had beenguilty of similar invasions. There was another peculiarity with ,respe6t to Hamp shire; that the case on which the House came to the Resolution, condetnning the Duke of Chandos, arose in that County. 'The.Reselution of the Honse upon that case declared it to be highly criminal, and a breach of the-Privileges of the House,. to be.vindi cated by severe.animadversions, that an Officer of the Government should interfere, direaly or indirealy, in the Eledion of*Membera;toservein the CcntimOns House of Parliament: It the interference in that in starCee were compared with the interference in the, present instance, no' man could hesitate to say, that the interference in the present instance was more ai red and immediate. It was argued, that the Duke of Chando3 was as a Peer prohibited from interfering by law; but it was his interference as an:Officer of Government that the Resolution stigmatized. Ano ther complaint was, that the fats contained in the. complaints of the Petitioners had not been brought forward as soon as the Hon.' Gentlemen opposite wished,, that they Were not prepared as : the.Hoh. Gentlemen wished, that they were not the same facts as they Wished ; other modes of bringing the matter forward ought to have been resorted to, according to 'the opinions of the Hon. Gentlemen ; and indi viduals-ought not to have been feasted and pamper ed up for the purpose of sacrificing them on the occasion. It wasvery, likely that the entertainment, as it. was served up at present, was riot to the taste of the Hon. Gentlemen; but was it to be argued that when Government had invaded .the rights and in dependence of a county; and pleaded custom as a ground for denying redress, the House of Commons should refuse to inquire into the grounds of a Petiti on complaining of the injury, and invade another right of the subject, merely because the form of the Petition:in question may be disagreeable to those, whose crime was its substance ? ,Vas the House to call for and- compare all rough drafts and amended forms of the several,Petitions that had been sketched previous to the due finally-presented? Was the House, in assuming a right which .it did not possess; to lose sight. ofthe due exercise of a duty which Was incuM-. bent - upon it. Helsadheard it was maintained in ano ther place,that the influence of Government was a sort of paternal and prOluting influerice ; which may as, properly be-exercised Oyer the people as that of .a landlord Over hiS tenants. He had riot heard that sentinsent uttered here .so generally. But when so, impo i rtant'a person as the Secretary of the Treasury said any thing bordering upon it ,became the House .to guard against it in the Outset, ,nartieularly when that Secretary of. the Treasurystated that he had come into office critically . at that period, and that the , Whole business of the EleCtions was in his , hands; He was glad to find the Flonotirable Gentleman had estates in Hampshire; but he couldnot have • estates in every Ceunty, or- Ins)rises in every Borough. He anust think, upon the whelp of the circurnstauces, that the letter to Gets. Hthwitt Was written not as a letter from, one private Freeholder to another, but in the charader of Mr. Freernatitle,;Secretary to the Treasury, hav irig the charge . of,managing the General Election, to the person at the head, of the,Barrack DepartMent, claiming the exertion of his extensive influence. But it was argued; the House au g ht .to have no jealousy. of a Petition 'complaining of this interference; and an Hon. Gentleman, who represented the County of Hants recommended that the Petition' should be dis missed; and thrown-hack with disgrace upon the heads. of those who had preferred it. This would hardly , be of Service to the Hon. Gentleman in; another simi lar•crisis of difficulty; Whether be may or may not happen to have a' friend in the situation of Secretary to the Treasury, and having a freehold in Hampshire. He had trusted that it would not have been necessary -for hith to speak upon this question ; and-though lie had a high respell for some of the Petitioners, be would have been silent, had not the arguments offer ed on the opposite side called upon him for these-ob servations. He had hoped, that such a Petition, movectand seconded by - such personS, would have met universal concurrence. He was ready to allow, that it the Petitioners could , not prove their allegations, the strength of the language in which they expressed their complaints ought to stabjed them to some cen sure. —But that the strength of the language should be made 0 ground for reje&ing the Petition, when . those who signed it professed themselves' ready to prove their allegations, was what appeared to hint most extraordinary and Most unjustifiable, and there, fore he would <: : v ve onevote , at least to preserve,he House front censure that timst.fall upon it if the , •,. * `' "7 •,) • •"1"e1 rt")lA'% potitprn 1;110111d 66,diirniise4 yr ithot proper deration, • • • • . • • 4 .e = • tlionoht it urrar Ir , it , —lrcr , erce CLOat..:tr,to take tidvantige of all inadvertent eiproi iou of An Hon. Csentieman unused to . pu . btic . sp,ekt 7 . The flou. Gentleman ha 'd beside§ 'eoiTeete4 tlp-> e.;< , pres§ion of the propriety of Goyerunient . 1.) , r in eleelions in a corpor2te ; cop?city; ainjost a soon he had used it: :The holder of the Oitiee of s:cretary,of the treasury not One of tho , ,:t Officer§ who were dibtinguished by !ivy or by ItesJ ,hitiops of the House from taking part in election-. , he was, therefore, at full liberty toyote,ao like any other individual. The preseni case has n t . _ . of,thc County of Hants in particular, it, was case, ; ,tot?e decicled on general principl4, The Secretary the Treasury was in no Way chi:, qualitiecl from interfering. In the case of 1779, ale Duke of Chanclos,was disqualified by law; as a Peei . of Parliameni,-,R4 as a Lora Lieutenant. , Mr. Free man tle.had,written in ftwour. of Mr. Herbert: he had written as a_ Freeholder, not as Secretary of the .Treasury—to.Gencral Hewitt, not as Barrack Mas ter General, but as a Freeholder. The Hon. Gen tleman did not deity to a Member of Government -the right of canvassing tenants, or other persons cons ! ueQed with him; it *as only, the application of threatS or bribes that could be called undne influence. .I.Co charge of the king - was made. It was only a violation of the - Law of Parliament and of the Land, t hat could constitute a fit 'Subject thr the i in'estigat ion of the Con - 114W of Privileges. In the prsent case there was no new part to he brought forward. Would it, be consistent- with the dignity of the House to gO into a Committee of Privileges to inquire into what was known. not to be inexistence The Committee, of Privileges was one' of the most ancient and ve nerable forms of the House, and-ought not to be re sorted to on light grounds, The 'ftids were aeknow;. ledged, and theconstrudion clear in the present I,QnISOLK ESTO NE allowed that the Members of Government - had a right tointerfere in Elections, as privateindividuals ; • but he. could consider the let ter limn the Secretary of the. Treasury to the llttss,, rack Master :General, in this case, only as an letter. It was understood as such by those svloise condo& was. to influence. He did expo' that the Gentlemen on .the.other side would have assented to tthe Motion, in ,consideretion of their own hoooer, of the honour of 'the County. of Hants,,ind of the House of Commons. He Understood that. naochs further grounds of crimination were 'to be brought foVsvar&-and particularly a-letter from one of the other Public Boards, signed by the Secretary- (hi this ,ground he wished to go into the, Committee. Me..lQiIN agreed that this - was a gene-, is o quest i o i o . was, whether the, Howe would, sandlots a Secretary of the Treasury in sending a letter -from the Treasury,. perhaps- signed with the Seal of. the Treasury, and carried by a Messenger Of the Treasury, tohisk the influence of a great Public ' Ds - partmtn on a General EleEtion,? Every one who under Stands this to - be a measure of mere private canvass between Freeholder -and Freeholder, would vote against going into ‘a Committee. But it ap peared to him to be official; and therethre he voted for : inquiry. The Barrack-Master General, the Se cretary of the Barrack Board, and Major Davies,- all s undevstood the -..letter to be official. He de nied, that this letter was a single instance of the iti terference of Government in Eledions. He himself had seen many similar letters, particularly one writ ten by the same Secretary of. the Treasury to an EleCior in -Yorkshire, whose name lie did not know, - to influence his vote. He adverted to the abstinence - from all interference in the 'General Eledion in the Administration of Lord Sidtuouth. -He called upon those who wished to prevept undue influence of Government from extending to every County,- City, and Borough in the Country, to vote for going into the Committee., Mr. PATRURSTs.cIw no reason to.go into a Com mittee. of Privileges, when there mere no 'has touch ingprivilege to be authenticated: The tads in this case were clear, and the eonstrutaion was' obvious. If . any Gentleman thought there was foundation for • motion oicenstire, he May bring it 'forward. The . HOuse of .Comeohns would hardly go int() a coal mittee of Privileges to . fish out grievances now un ktiown. The. faa stated in the Petition was all the HouSe ‘ could attend to. It was extremely improper to., introduce the name of the Comp troller of the Navy, or . of_ any other person, with out'specific: foundation. .Mr. - Freemantie had declared that lie had Written 'the letter merely in his individual capacity,: ‘ and there was no reason :to presume the contrary.'. Petition stated, that the Petitioners believed MrssFreemantle ,had no property hi the County of Hants, Wat it now appeared - he had ; and thras'f.tr the Petition ,proceeded on false grounds. It was an unfair exaggeration to state that it bad been argued by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney),. that because the. County of Hants had been often violated, it was not entitled to redresSo lii Hon, Friend; while remarkin,g upon - the 'ex . traordinary-zeal shewn on this occasion by .sorne Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, had contended'. that there was no violation in the present case. The f Hori.. Gentleman (Mr. Canning)- had declared, he did not mean to impute any guilt, but merely in ferred- ground for suspicion. • Some person s w e r e always disposed to put the worst conseru6tion. He Isopechthe House would not do so. .He .thOught it no disgrace to the Petition not itshgo into a Commit tee upon, it. Mr..PERCIV4. I I, began by observ g i7 n , e t r l a i l at e l x ie pr h e a s t . l heard in the of the debate a sion of .Surprise L-one set of Gentlemen were star - prised at the manner in -which this charge !hid hews brotight forwardanot her at the charge itself. A No. ble Lord who had just sat down.(Lord Folkstone) , had freely expressed his surprise - at the strange reception this Petition bad met with from his - Zajesty's Mi nisters in that House ; and the 'Noble Lord was suiptisjd at such a reception, because the Noble Lord thought such - a line - of condua inconsistent with those professions in faveur.of free and -liberal ' inquiry into all alledged abUses of a- public nature, which wer6 ever hi the mouths of the men eon* prising the present Government of the country. He; for his part, could riot be brought to think that the reason assigned , was at all a . satisfadory - one, for to be told that the present Administration, were in eve ry instance asiting iii'dired inconsistency w ith their professions when wt ofpower - , would have produced in his mind, sensatious very opposite to those of sur prise. No:; of all other emotions, surprise was that from Which he was-o; that inOment, most free.