The Sun. — London, England, 1807-02-28 00:00:00

LIIPERL4L PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS, FRIDAY, FEB. 27. Lord VIR NON and the Bishop of LITCHFULD and COVENTRY took the oaths and their seats. The Bills on the table, the Irish Quit-rent, Tur key Tobacco, &c. Bilis, were read a third time, and passed. Lord HOLLAN,D presented a Petition from certain :Debtors confined in the _King's Bench Pristin,_pray ing for relief.—lt was by no means his intention to ground any motion on this or such-like Petitions as had passed the House last Session. His obje& was in presenting it, to solicit the attention of a Noble Lord (Moira) who had already devoted much of his time and attention to this subje&, and also of a Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor General) in the other House, who, with such ability, might co-operate in it, to unite their endeavours in making some im provements in the laws betvken debtor and creditor. Such improvement, he had reason to believe, was a great desideratum ; and he, for one, was certainly very anxious to see it effected. For the present, he should content himself with expressing .that wish ; and with moving that the Petition do lie upon the table.—Ordered. FINANCE. The Earl of WARIMK•rose, pursuant to no tice, to draw the attention of the. House to a subject to which he had - alluded on a former day. It was a subject dry arid difficult iii its nature; and from the little practice and pretension he had as a Parlia mentary Speaker, he should not be expeaed to ex pand or enliven it very much. In the present criti cal state; however, of this country, and the civilized world, when no rational hope could be entertained of any solid and permanent Peace till France was dis, abled from pursuing her system of aggrandisement and plunder, and when the protraaion of the War must every day aggravate the hurthens which already weighed so heavily upon the people, he felt it his duty to exert what poor abilities he possessed to alleviate and equalize those berthens, as the Most effect al means of enabling the Country to prosecute the cUn .test with vigour and elfea, for it was not easy to foresee its termination, and the logger it conti nued, the heavier must the!burt hen of taxation press' upon the people. Indeea, in his bpittion, it woutal be impossible to go on under the Financial Sy s .: tern at present pursued by his Majesty's 6o vernment ; and, under thet convi6tion, he had turned his mind to the subjea, and had. happily hit upon one hitherto wholly withought of and untouch ed, which, if adopted, would furnish the only fair mode of taxation, that of equally and equitably - clic tributing the pressure of the present burthens on the shoulders of all his Majesty's Subjects. The Nqble Lord here took a Paper out of his pocket, and ob 'served, that if the House would allow him to read it, they Nvould find his System develope: in fewer words than he could otherwise convey its bearings and tendency to their Lordships. His Lordship then proceeded to read the. Paper, and to shew that the drift of his system was to tax capital ; that property could not be accurately defined ; that it could be de scribed only by its sign, labour; and to labour only, as its sole source, was all property to be referred. This should, therefore, be the criterion of all H taxation, and not income or property, which was now made the chief obje4t of taxation...-. To illustrate this Position, the Noble Lord entered into , a variety of calculations, founded on the amount of the population, and of the expenditure of the country. The population he took at twelve mil lions and a half for Great Britain, and the expendi ture at above thirteen hundred millions annually. He divided the population into classes, who expend ed troni sixpence to twenty shillings per day ; and entered into calculations to prove that, by a tax of ten shillings only per cent. on that ex penditure, there might be raised thirteen Mil- lions and a half, 'which is two millions more than is now raised by the Property Tax, which is uni- • versally felt to be unequally burthensome and-op- pressive, while the portion which he assessed on each individual would scarcely, if at all, be telt. The Noble Lord would not detain the House by enter-' ing minutely into the proofs, as they would be bet a ter undeeoood by. referring to-the Paper; which he should now lay on the table, and which he moved to be referred to a Committee to consider and report. Leer/. GRENVILLE observed, that on account of its informality, the Motion could not he-enter tained by, the House ; for the Paper, to which the Noble Earl had alluded, was not regularly before the House, and therefore could not be made the subjeet !of discussion and investigation. He was convinced That the Noble Earl was- a&uated by the purest sense of duty to the Public, in submitting his plan to the House ; but, upon consideiation, he was equally convinced that the Noble Earl and the House must von perceive , that such a system was wholly im practicable. In point of theory, no doubt, it was simple ano comprehensive; butall the financial know ledge and experience which a length of wars had ac quired, only tended to prove, that when such systems were attempted to be brought into watt ice, they were attended with ten times more difficulty and in convenience than those which they were intended to displace. So far from that boasted simplicity being conducive to facilitate the collection, and enlarge the amount of the revenue, it was found necessary, as in the Property Tax, to vary the principle of it into a multiplicity of modes of operation, in order to get at the amount of what property could be made .liable to it. lord-Waawtex would not allow that his Plan would weigh more heavily on the poorer classeS ; on the contrary, it would alieEt the employers only, net the employed. Lord SILLKINK reminded the Noble Earl, that .7hen he computed the population of the country at tw elve millions and a half, he took into the account -women and children, who were not supposed to centribute. Lord Wattwxcx contended, that he meant it only to affeEt then. On the Motion for referring the Paper ro a Corn- . mince, Lords Gazervrnoz and HOLLAND again ob ljeaed to its irregularity, and suggested to amend alie,Motioo thus, that it be referred to a Committee to consider of the best mode thk can be devised for increasing the ReVeeue. The euesoon was them .put von this • Motion, and • .: .A ~, : , , HOUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY, FEB. 27. A Ballot took place for a Committee to try and determine the inerits of the Petition complaining of the Eleetiotand Return for theßorough of Wick, in Scotland. rhe following Gentlemen were ap pointed on , the Committee : fames Shaw, Esq. R. E. D. Grosvenor, Esq. Thomas Brook, Esq. Sir Win. Middleton, Ban. Henry Thornton, Esq. Henry Fane, Esq. Benjamin Hobhouse, Esq. R. Sharpe,' Esq. Wigrarn, Esq. R. H. Bradshaw, Esq. Thomas Baring. Esq. Lord H. Bernard. Walter loner, Esq. NOMINEES. Peter Moore, Esq. Right Hon. Henry Erskine. Mr. ATKINS WRIGHT moved, that the Order for taking the Special Report of the Penryn Committee into consideration on Monday, shOuld be discharged, and that it should be fixed for the 21st of April next. The reason was a domestic calamity which had happened to one of the parties concerned. He spoke in such a low tone of voice that we could not distinguish the particular person. Lord TEMPLE and Mr. WYNNE objected to such a long delay, and after a few words from Mr. HURST, Mr. SWAN, and Mr. Lee KECK., it was agreed that the Report should be taken into consideration on the ,23d of March. Mr: FULLER presented a Petition from Mr. Wal ter Dewry, who had been confined by the Maid stone LleCtion Committee, expressive of the contri tion of the witness; in consequence of which, it was ordered that he should be brought up to the Bar on Monday, and discharged. Lord FOLKSTONE moved, That the Petition- of Mr. Paull, complaining of a Breach of Privilege, should be ten into consideration on Monday. He did this with a view to make the business an Order Of the Day, without which he could not have a War rant to compel the attendance of the Witnesses. This Motion was agreed to; and William Drake, William Drake, jun. Anne Drake, Thomas Weather head; John Richards, John Pullen, Daniel Richard son, Christopher Richardson, William Warren, with other Witnesses, were ordered to attend. Mr. Sitattinav had no objection, the Noble Lord Might be assured, to any motion which should have a tendency to throw light upon this subject. He rose merely to state, that some friends of his intended to present 0 Petition, on Monday, relat!ve to the charges that had been brought against them ;. and that be himself meant to present a Petition, complaining of subornation of perjury on the part of the Petitioner. Mr. St:Ea:DAN then presented a Petition for leave to bring in a Bill' to erect a Bridge froni, at, or near Southampton-street, in the Strand, over the River Thames; and to construa a High Road to the Obe lisk-, .St. George's Fields, Surrey.—Referred to a Coinniittee. Mr. Sheriff MiLas presented two Petitions from the Lord-Mayor, &c. &c. of London ; the one pray ing for aid for the Improvement of the -POll of Lon don ; the other, praying far . an Amendment of the Ace or the .14th of the King, with respe& to the Navigation of the River Thames.—Ordered to lie on the table. General PASCOYNE presented a don from the Committee of the Merchants trading to Africa, praying for the usual Grant of 18,0001. to main tain the Settlements there.—Ordered to lie tin the table. He also presented a Petition from the Leather Dealers of Liverpool against the Oak Bark Bill.-- Referred to the Committee on the Oak Bark Bill. Mr. HENRY THORNTON presented a PCIiIiOII from the Curriers, &c. &á. of Colchester, praying for the Continuance of the Sealing and Searching Regula tions.—Referred to tl2e same Committee. Mr. FREEMANTLE suggested, that as the Private Business wonld occupy a great deal of time, and as the Slave Trade Committee was coming on, the Hon. Baronet opposite might perhaps think it pro per to postpone his Finance Resolutions. Sir JAMES PuLTENEY consented, and the Motion was postponed till Tuesday. Mr. HENRY Titottsvrow presented a Petition from the Directors of the Sierra Leone Company, praying for the aid of 14,0001. for the year 1807.—Ordered to lie on the table. • Mr. BASTARD moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of Parish Apprentices. The chief object was, to compel their Masters to make them attend Divine Ser,/ice.—Leave given. Mr. HIBBLRT presented a Petition from certain Planters of the West India Colonies, praying that the House would take their case,into consideration ; and gave notice that on the 9th of March he would move that it be referred to a SeleEt Committee. Lord HaWicx said, that he was not authorised to signify His Majesty's assent to any claim of com pensation, which was not a question at present to be considered. Mr. HIBBERT Consequently did not persist in his notice. Mr, Batax.Es made the usual Motion for an Ac count of the number of Bank of England Notes in circulation from the Ist of Feb. 1806 to the Ist of Feb. 1807.—Oldered. Lord TEMPLE presented the Estimates of the Ex-- traordinaries of tie Army; which were ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Lord TEMPLE brought up the Pilot Regulation Bill, which was read a first time. His Lordship stated, that many Ships had been lost in the British Seas from the ignorance of Pilots, and that it was, proper that some provision should be :made on the subject. The Pilots appointed by certain Conipa nies, according to charter, would, be allowed to re main, as they were subjed to be confirmed and li censed by the Trinity House. He hoped lie would be aliowed to proceed as soon as possible to the Corn mittee, in order to tilt up the blanks; after which a considerable time would be allowed fur the consi deration of this important point. The Bill was then ordered to be read a second 'tithe on Monday, with an understanding that 'it 'should he committed the same day. Sir JOAN NEWPORT moved for leave to bring in a Bill tor improving the City of Dublin. Leave given. WESTMINSTER ELECTION. ' Mr. BIDDULPII presented a Petition from cer tain Electors of Westminster, in the Parish (t St. Martin's Le Grand, complaining of a breach of pri vilege. The: Petition in substance stated, " That the Petitioners.-had learnt with regret that the con,idcra iion of the Petition against Mr. Sheridan had been tmstnotif...d from the eatis of this toiuth to al 111040 distant clay, by which they were for some time . franchised and unrepresented in Parliament, Sir Sa muel Hood having accepted of a command incon sistent with his duty in Parliament, and Mr. Sheridan 1 having been returned by means of a colourable ma jority, instead of Mr. Paull, who was the real Mem- ber.—That Mr. Sheridan personally, and his friends, 1 agents, &c. &c. had been tampering with the evi dence, and had employed bribes, threats, Ministerial influence, &c. &c. to deter the witnesses from ap pearing, and giving an unbiassed testimony.---That the Petitioners were ready to prove their allegations, and as the Resolutions of the House had declared that such condu6t was a high crime and misde .meanour, they demanded and entreated (or insisted) that the House should proceed with the utmost se verity against the offenders." Mr.BlLDltt.rti hoped that he would not be considered as personally respon sible for the allegations in the Petition. It had been put into his hands by some E4ealors of Westminster, and being an EleEtor of Westminster himself, he could not refuse to present it. He moved, that the Petition be referred to a Committee of Privileges. • Mr. SHERIDAN seconded the Motion. Lord HO WICK observed, that though the Hon. Member who. presented the Petition' was not re sponsible for the allegations, yet he was bound to take care that every Petition he presented should be couched in decent and , respeaful ,language lie would not comment on the allegations, for he was disposed to agree in a sentiment which the Speaker had expressed on an occasion different from this, that the doors of the House should be thrown wide open for Petitions : but if a Petition was couched in a sort of language that. shewed a studied intention to insult the House, it became them to e: press • their disapprobation of such conduQ. The Petition set out with a complaint against the proceedings of the House, by which the Petitioners saii 'they were dis franchised for a time, when it was known that the House was accustomed, and had anundoubted right to chose their time with a view to the convenience of the public business, and the ends of substantial jus tice to all the parties. That was the true ground for putting off the consideration of the Eleaors' Pe tition ; and it was to be remembered, that it had been first postponed by the Petitioners, with an un derstanding that it - should be further postponed, if circumstances should require it. When it was post,. poned on such grounds, the proceeding did not . . de prive these persons of privilege, nor do injustice to the Petitioner, for. -it, yet remained to be deter-: mined who was the proper person to sit there for Westminster. If 'the outset of the Petition was im proper, the subsequent part was not less objec tionable. Those men had certainly aright to peti tion, and it was the duty of the House to attend to their. complaints ; but when they insisted and de manded that the House should proceed withseverity against those whom they called offbnders,before in vestigation, this was not language consistent with justice, or, the respe6l due to the House. He would not, however, throw any obstacle in , the way of in quiry : he hoped the matter would be inquired into, and that censure would fall-where censure was due. If it should be proved that the allen - ation of tamper ing with witnesses was well founded, then certainly the offenders deserved the heaviest censure. But, 'on the other hand, if it was false and unfounded, then universal censure would fall upon the authors of so unfounded 'a slander. He suggested, how ever, to the Hon. Gentleman, that it was his duty, in any Petition he might hereafter present, to take care that it should be couched in language fit for the House to hear. Mr. WYNNE strongly felt that it would be dan gerous to admit a precedent of having received a Petition couched in such terms. as these ;,.and, there fore, notwithstanding what had fallen from his Noble Friend, with whose .experience and knowledge he was well-acquainted, he thought that unlesS the ob jectionable passages could be cancelled, the Petition ought not to be received. He was perfectly ready to attend to the matter of the Petition ; but he could not-consent to proceed. in a way that com promised the dignity and chara6ter of the House. Lord TEMPLE concurred in the opinion, that the door of the House 'ought to be thrown 'wide open to Petitions ; but it had a right to demand that they should he couched in decent and decorous language. He did not, therefore, think that the House was bound in duty to receive a Petition con veyed in such terms as these. Mr. FULLER agreed with the Noble Lord-who spoke last. The words were demand and insist, and the House could not receive a Petition conveyed in such terms as were contained in this--[Here he threw the Petition on the ground]. The - House would always feel it a duty to.attend to and redress grievances ; but it was not bound to receive Petitions couched in language that shewed a manifest inten tion to insult the House. Mr. WHITBREA.b suggested to the Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. liiddulph) the propriety or withdraw ing the Petition, as the general sense of the House appeared to be against it, and presenting another, couched in more proper and moderate - terms. It was' not the custom to present Petitions against the proceedings of the House in itifiirs of this nature, and : the words insist and demand were certainly ob jettionable : but that was not the most objectionable part of it, and he should be inclined to pass over this if there had been nothing else to object to. •BUt. the Petition insisted that the House should proceed with severity with regard to one against whom nothing had been proved. If the Petition could not, in point of form, be withdrawn, then, supposing it to be rejected, the Petitioners had fhll time to present a fresh Petition on Monday.— This, they would do if they were really in earnest, and only wished for justice. If they did nut do this, then it would be clear that they were not in pursuit of justice, but only intended to insult the House. The SPEAKER said there was nothing in point of form which would prevent the withdrawing of the Petition. Mr. BIDDULPH stated, that the Petition had been put into his hands, and that he had promised to present it, without.looking at it—immediately. He had sunk: doUbts after reading it, but having sheWn it to same friends (Allis, Members of the House, he had been told by them that it would not be impro per to present it. As to that part which related to the pro:xeding of the House, it was rather a narra tive titan an accusation.- -- The words insist and de mand had been caught at in rather an extraordi • way. All that the Petitioners insisted upon nary and demanded was, that the House should of upon' its own Orders. This was the way in which he understood them. The evidenee,he knew nothing, of ; but he was not prepared to view the Petition in that offensive light. in which it appeared to some; and therefore,did not feel satisfied that he ought to withdraw it, or confess that, he was liable to the itn putation of carelessness thrown out against him by the Noble Lord oppoSite. Mr. MONfAGUE put it earnestly: to the Hon. Gentleman 4who presented the Petition, whether it would not be adviseable to withdraw. the same, as by such a prudent proceeding, extremes upon either side would be avoided, the dignity of the House would not be comPromi&ed, and the Right of *Peti tion, would not be entrendied upon. He couldnot agree 'with the Hon. Member, that the words "de mand and insist," were merely used as urging the necessary consequences in a clear deaVetion • for What man for instance ever similarly ap pii,J such words as insist and demand that two and two made four ? • Did Euclid, he asked, ever insist and demand that the three angles of a triangle were equal to No right ones He besought the Hon. Member to relieve the'embarrassment of the. House by with= drawing the Petition. General VYSE, we understood, did ndt think that the Petition being . ' once presented could be well withdrawn. Ile thought the' Wordi objected' to were not of such moment, and believed that they were to be imputed to ignorance or inadvertence. Sir E. LY:I'I'LETON was for rejecting the Petition: Noma') was'lnore a friend to the Subject's undoubt. , ed right of petition than* he was; but he was also a friend to the cause of that House's dighity - and honour. In rejecting the Petition he thought be ilot only consulted, the respect of that House, but the dignity of the great'body that created it.' The people suffered from any insult cast upon its repre sentative body, and no porCon of constituents should bi allowed to violate the common forms of decency and decorum due from all constituents to the Cont tifOriiliolis&oiNiiiiineht. General VYSE eiplained. • Mr. LAMBE did not think it quite fair that art opinion hazarded 'by him in-private, upon a casual glance of the Petition, should be adduced as ati authority in that House ; he should not, however, shrink in public from any opinion he had maintained in private ihe did not think the words of the Petition so objectionable ; 'the words alarm and regret in its commencement were by no mean 3 unparliamentary terms to express the 'sensations of Petitioners pro duced by any .antecedent act of- that House ; the other words so much complained of, insist or de viand, seemed to be misunderstood, they were ad dressed to the House as in its judicial capacity. Mr. SHERIDAN fully concurred with the Hon. Gentleman on the other. side of the House (Mr. Alontague) as to the necessity of dismissing front their minds every consideration .that tended to irri tate or influence. He was aware that it was neces sary to hear with temper, in order to decide with firmness. He had gone through his eleaion test without heat, intemperance, or animosity I,l P° ll his part, and he should not.now be hurried to aban don that moderation to which he had been recently so murk indebted. He flattered himself that 'he liad:thci good fortune to have the best wishes of the Honottrable Member who presented the Petition ; he ,had been benefited by his intercourse, and had occasionally been honoured with the enjoyment. of his hospitality ; he did therefore think that the Ho nourable Gentleman would have done more justice to his well known candour, if he had, in his appli cation to different friends upon the subjeCt, had some previous communication with him . (Mr. She» titian) before he had presented a charge in which he was so perSonallx. evolved. He was still more at a loss to account for this othission s , when be re- collected that a Noble. Lord (Folkstone), had done so upon a similar occaftion, As to the Petition now before the House; he believed he bad given the strongest proof in his power- of his earnest anxiety that the Prayer of the f'gtition should be promptly acceded to, and that all praalicable dispatch Should: be resorted te, in order to ; facilitate inquiry the most stria and extensive into the grounds of all allega tions complaining of a breach. of the privileges of . that House, or relating to any conduat of his touch ing thelate Election for Westminster,. A$ to the, wording of the Petition, he had, two, r,eaaons for not wishing to reje& it on that head,;, his . Parliamentary condutt was evidence that he had been uniformly a zealous advocate for the Subject's tight of Petition, .and he would noW be the last man il7 that Huse to reject a Petition for having indiscreetly m a d e . use of . hot and hasty words ; but he had anOther and a paratnottnt teason for not reje&ing. the VetitiOn,4o that was, that he believed in his soul, that, if tiA4 Petition•went to a ComMittee of Privileges, he to the chagrin and utter disappointment of the. Petitioners themselves. He argued against tiw consistency of Coaxing an Honourable Membtx. to with lraw his petition, in order not to Compromise the dignity of . the House, as such solicitation weut, effeaually to compromise it; and denied that tha,t House could ever feel a difficulty on a question that involved the assertion of its honour. Mr. ROBINSON, though in a very small minority upon a former night, against the Right ilonouraolo Gentleman, felt it now equally. incumbent upon him to resist the motion that Gentleman had se conded he thought the language of the Petition extremely indecorous, and the reasons a;e•iiSeA to prove the Petitioners disfranchised equally absurd, Mr. ADAM contended that the only proper way of proceeding, in the present stage of the busines s , was tor the Honourable Mover to withdraw his Mo tion, and afterwards his Petition , plecting himself to bring forward the. substance of it in a form less obje6tionable. .•,• Mr. BIDDULPII, after a few observations in reply, consented to withdraw his Motion. • SLAVE 'TRADE ABOLITION BILL. On the Alotion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, 'Sir a POI:,E rose, and said, that his opinion of the, impolicy of the present measure had gained con siderable strength from the arguments be iiad heard urged by the ablest and must conversant men upon the subject. He thought that the Bill would put to risque more than one third of the export trade,-- The trade at present rnpintained moo ships and 3,000 seamen.. He hoped the House, would coo cider dispassionately the great subject before tit tu, and not be affected in' his decision by popular Oa- MOM.