The Sun. — London, England, 1802-11-24 00:00:00

ession, respeding the Committee of Privileges, the Sub-Committees, &c. were then regularly made. The Loan CHANCELLOR. took the opportunity to suggest some considerations relative to the Sit. Ling of the Irish Spiritu,4l, ih certain cases, as pre scribed by the Aft of Union ; and also respeCting the mode of summoning the Irish Temporal Peers, which he thought should be speedily attended to by the Committee - of Priv iiegeS. - Committee.of Privileges was fixed for Thurs. day next, and at Half-past Eight o'Clock the House adjourned till to-morrow. H'l USE OF COMMONS, TUESDAY, NOV. 23. THE SPEAKER having taken 'the Chair about one o'clock, several ivlembers were sworn in. At half past two o'clock, Sir FRANCIS MoLYNEux, Gen tleman Usher of the Black Rod, appeared at the Bar, and summoned the House to attend His Ma jesty in the House of Peers. Accordingly the SPEAKER, accompanied by a great number of Mem bers, went up to the House of Peers : on their re turn, the SPEAKER said, that the Clerk of the House had, according to order, prepared a Bill for the more efFeJually preventing Clandestine Outlawries ; which was then read a first tinie • Mr. WALLACE said, it was unnecessary for him to preface the M)tion he was about to make, with any observations, it was a Motion for the appointment of the four Grand Committees, and for voting the Standing Orders. The Grand Committees of Religion, Grievances, Courts of justice, and Commerce were then appoint ed, and the usual Sranding Orders were voted. Several ocher Meinbers, among whom was Mr. Fox, were then sworn in. At four o'clock the SPEAKER. stated, that the House had attended His Majesty in the House of Peers, where His Majesty had been pleased to make a most Gracious Speech froin the Throne, of which, to prevent mistakes, he bad obtained a Copy. The SPEAKER then read the Speech (for which see the Proceedings in the House of Peers), when Mr. TRENCH rose to move an Address of Thanks to His Majesty ; lre said, that in pret. facing the proposition which he had to submit to the consideration of the House, he should trespass as shortly as possible upon their patience.—Upon the assemblage of a new Parliament, the first which had met since the'signature of the Treaty of Peace, it seemed natur;;l Lo i observe, in the first place, how oar situation had been affeeled by that event, and what had been the result of our change from a state of War to that of Peace. In viewing our internal situation, he: should advert first to those sources of prosperity which were more immediately within our own reach ; and in this view of our situation, there appared to be the greatest cause for exultation. Whether they turned their eyes to the attachment displayed by all racks of the People to the Consti tution of this Country, or to the alive and steady loyalty displayed in Ireland, in the most trying s i t u a tions, or to the returning reason of those In habitants of that Country who had suffered them selves to be deluded—Whether they looked to the increasing Revenue of the Empire, or to the im proved state of its Agriculture, Manufaftures and Commerce, in every point of view there was the greatest reason for congratulation and triumph. In looking at the state of our Commerce, we should nowhere find the verification of those melancholy, those sinister predidions which were made by some Gentlemen, that our Commerce, though great dur ing the War, IA ould decline at the Peace: Instead of being injured, our resources remained, not only unimpaired, but improved, after exertions almost greater than imagination could conceive. Under these circumstances, every one must undoubtedly wish for the contienanee of Peace ; but yet we had no reason to apprehend the event of a War, if War was necessary, for the security of the Country. Having dwelt with sati4Ction upon this view of oar situation, was not his intention to pass over in silence our situation with regard to Foreign States. It would be unnecessary for him to enter into any argument to she w the necessity of our keeping an eye upon the measures adopted on the Continent, .because it was a proposition recognized by the last Parliament in its Address to the Throne on the con elusion of the Peace. That events which had occur red on the Continent had demonstrated a great dis position to encroachment on the part of France, and naturally excited some degree of jealousy, could not be denied. But in what manner and at what point we ought to interfere, or whether we ought to in terfere without concert with other Powers, were questions upon which it was impossible for them to decide without a greater knowledge than they ,possessed. With regard to Ireland, much bad been done for that Country since the Union, and much still remained to be done to promote the happiness and the wealth of . that Country, and consequently the happiness and wealth of the Empire, at large. From the uniform atten tion which had been displayed by Parliament, and by His Majesty's Ministers, to the affairs of Ire land, whenever they came under consideration, there could be no reason to doubt but that the re- .4.,•••• ~.,.. commendation from the Throne would be fully at tended to. He would not trespass any longer on the attention of the House ; he sincerely hoped that Peace might he maintained; but if the Honour, the Independence, and the Security of this Country re quired measures of an opposite nature, he was sure Ministers would not want the hearty co-operation of :he whole Empire. He concluded with moving an humble Address to His Majesty, which was, as u-,ual, nearly a repetition of the, Speech. Mr. CURZON said, he rose to second the Ad- .... dress, „ but after the very able manner in which it hail been proposed by the Hon. Gentleman who preceded him, it would only be necessary for him to say a few words.—He congratulated the House upon the flourishing state of the Trade, the Manu factures, and the Commerce of this Country.—He perfedly concurred with the Honourable Mover of the Address,. upon the .importance of preserving Peace, if Peace could be preserved consistently with our Honour and Dignity. There were many other topics upon which he might enlarge, but at present he did not feel it necessary to trouble the House any longer, except merely to second the Address. The SPEAKER having read the Address, . ' Mr. C ART WRIG HT said, it was not. his in„_ tention to interrupt the harmony of their proceed ings by opposing the Address.—Undoubtedly, the best way to preserve the blessings of Peace,•was to • chew, that if necessary, we were prepared-for a state of War. When he considered the condua of the person at the head of the Government of France since the conclusion of the Treaty of Peace ; when he considered how little pacific he had shewn himself since that period, and how much pains he had taken to irritate ..the feelings of the People of this Country, it certainly could not be denied that we ought to put ourselves in a state of readiness. He could not help expressing it: to be his opinion that Ministers had been much to blame in disarming so quickly as they had done ; in doing so they had deviated from the condua of all former Ministers upon former occasions. They had always taken care at least to provide a Force equal to that of France ; instead of which, if we were now to go to War, he doubted if we had a Fleet equal to that of the Enemy ; because, since the Peace they had constantly been increasing their Force, and we had been decreasing ours. He was however, of opinion, that after the concessions we made to obtain Peace, after the abandonment of our Conquests, after we had given up Holland and Flanders, he did not think we should he justified in interfering in the affairs of Switzerland. He could not think, however we might , detest the condua of France to Switzerland, that we should he justified in going to War upon that ground. But the -stronger his feelings were with regard to the conduct of France, the more he la- ' mented the loss of those great talents which had so long watched over the interests of this Country, and had so successfully counteracted the efforts of Ffance against her ; he could not help lamenting the_loss of the abilities of the Right Hon. Gentle. man he alluded to, because he was convinced that there never was a time at which, this Country stood more in need of those talents than it did at present. Sir . 70117 V WROTTESLEY said, he could not presume that any thing he could say would have , any effea upon the House, but he rose merely to unburthen his" mind, and shortly to declare his opi nion upon the situation of this Conntry. Nobody could view the Right Hon. Gentleman who now presided in His Majesty's Councils, with more re speet and satisfaaion than he did ; when that Right Hon. Gentleman filled the Chair of that House, no body could have a higher opinion of his abilities. But whatever sentiments of respeCt he might entertain for that P.ight Hon. Gentleman, he felt himself call- ed upon to take a short review of the coodua of Mi nisters, and in so doing, he should follow the ex- ample of the Hon. Gentleman who moved the Ad dress. He should not make any comments upon t ht.; Treaty of Peace, but should confine himself to events that had taken place since the Signature of that Treaty. The Hon. Mover Of the Address had dwelt upon the improved state of our Manufactures ; he was sincerely glad to hear that statement from the Hon. Gentleman, because we should, perhaps, soon see the moment when it would be necessary to call all the resources of the Country into action. He was sorry, however, to observe, that the state of the ManufaCtures, in the part of the Country 'to which he belonged, was not such as' to justify the Hon. Gentleman's assertion. There were, however, many Gentlemen in the House, much better quali fied to give an opinion upon the subject than he was, and he hoped they would give the House some in formation upon this important point, before they se parated. There were many important topics upon which the Hon. Mover of the Address had very wisely touched but lightly, and his doing so, must have been a matter of satisfaction to those who sat under : him. Very soon after the signing of the Treaty of Peace, Ministers found that the spirit of the Go vernment of France was not such as they could approve, and since that period the same spirit had ontibrtnly been manifested. France had dictated to the Empire on the subjea of Indemnities, she had lately annexed the Dutchy of Parma to her over grown Dominion. We had seen the glorious achievements of the Patriots of Switzerland to establish the Liberty of their Country, frustrated by France, and that, Without any known Remon strance on the part of this Country. The , Public rapers, to which he was obliged to refer for want of a better authority, did indeed state that some_ thing like a Remonstrance had-been presented,: if that was the case, he hoped that Ministers would bring it forward for the consideration of the House ; and he hoped it would be such a one as Ministers would be proud to lay upon the Table of that House. He did- not know what the conduct of Ministers had been upon this subject, but he knew that Switzerland had been over-run by a large French Army ; he knew that the best people of that Country' were in the power of the Constil of France, sharing perhaps the same fate as the un fortunate Toussaint, lying in a dungeon. In this gloothy prospect, he taw but one dawn of hope, and that was, the calling forth again the greatett abilities in thiS Country : they had saved this Country in times of the greatest difficulty and dan ger, and. might still save it. He was not in the confidence of the Right Hon. Gentleman to whom he alluded, but he was sure that his disinterested ness would not desert him when his services were called for by his Country. Mr. PYTCHES then rose, but we were only enabled to hear a few of his observations. He said he should consider the Speech which had been read, as the Speech of the Minister ; and considering it in that point of view, he had no difficulty in pro nouncing it a complete Salmagundi. He was as -1 tonished that any Gentle Man could wish to involve us again in the horrors of War, the more especially as he was convinced that the French Government had no intention of violating the Peace with this Country. If the Government of France had violat ed'the Treaty in any particular, we ought to recall it to their recollection by a polite and gentle inti mation. 'He considered the Address as bad as the Speech, and gave his opinion decidedly against Ad dresses in general. Mr. FOX said, that as he concurred in the general tenor of the Address which had been moved, he should not have risen, but for some ex pressions which fell from some Gentlemen on the other side of the House, which rendered it ce.zes— nary for_ him to say a few words, to explain the - reasons of the Vote which he . should give in 'favour of the Address. There was an expression in the Speech,.. which was of course echoed in the Address, relatiVe to the advantages which had been derived from the Union with Ireland. If he were inclined to cavil, he might objed to that -expression, be cause by concurring in the Address, -he might be supposed, by implication, to have changed his opi nion respecting the event to which that expression alluded ; hut, however, he should not object to the Address on that account ; he merely desired, that he should not 'be implicated . by that expression. Whatever his opinion might have been with regard to the Union With Ireland, that event having taken place, he Wished. it might be attended with every possible success; ' and therefore did not wish to re consider the question. To the other, parts of the Address there was no objeac.lion ; but the manner in which Gentlemen on the other side had spoken about it was, in his opinion, very objectionable. An Hon. Gentleman had commented upon the Address, as if it had pledged the House to support large Military Establishments. The Speech from the Throne contained no such expression, nor was there any such language in the Address which had been proposed. The language of the Speech was, very properly, general ; it merely stated, that such • measures should be adopted as might appear the best . calculated for the security of the Kingdom. This was leaving the question open for discussion, and , not deciding whether the Establishments ought, to be large or small. Those who thought with him, that a small Military Establishment was the best calculated to preserve the Blessings of Peace, or even for commencing a War, would certainly propose a small Establishment ; and those who entertained an opposite opinion would propose different measures ; but neither party were hound by this Address, the words of which were general. With regard to the objeilions which had been made to the Address, he would not now en ter aully into a consideration of them.. -. &me Gentlemen objected to the Address, because it •• was too pacific, and had expressed their ObjeSltons rather in a singular manner, especially one Gentle man, who had stated, that the Government of France had done every thing in its power to irritate the feelings of the People of this Country. When the Hoo. Gentleman made such an assertion, he ex petted that he would have stated the, particulars of ' that consiud ; but he has not ; and in the very next sentence, he found fault with the King's Speech and the Address, for being too warlike, because having given up so much to obtain a Peace, we ought not to go to War. upon the interests of .the Continent. The objedions of another Gentleman, were upon a different ground, he disapproved of the Speech for nut being sufficiently warlike. That Honourable Gentleman had stated, that the condition of our IVlanufaetures was not so flourishing as had been re presented.:--how- the fad really was, he did not know ; hut he knew, that such a fad, stated with such a view as the Honourable Gentleman had stated it, was extremely alarming. It appear ed to him impossible to entertain- an opinion more erroneous and more wicked, than to suppose that if our Manufactures were not in a flourishing con dition in time of -Peace,. that they would be im proved by going to War. He really hoped that no Gentleman could entertain such a notion for a moment. With regard to the general objeaions to the Address, they would be considered by different • people in different ways. Those who thought that the signing the Treaty of Peace was injurious to this Country, and criminal in the Ministers who agreed to it, might probably continue of the same opinion, and would- think that we ought to take the first opportunity of breaking that Treaty Those Gentlemen would certainly be consistent,. though he entertained a very different opinion upon the subject. He was certainly not speaking in the same Parliament nor to the same Gentlemen, but lie was sure it could not be forgotten, that the Treaty of Peace was received with almost universal approbation by the Parliament and by the Country ; and he could not help asking one question, vl4. If the Peace was entitled to approbation, upon what principle of po licy, good faith, or expediency, it was now advise. able for us to go to War ? He, for one, could not conceive any one principle that would justify us in such a measure. He was not disposed, upon the present occasion, to enter into the general question, but it must strike every body, that the obvious means of carrying on the War, would be, in the first place, to retake those places which we had given up. Now, such conduct would, in his opinion, place both the makers and the breakers of the Peace in a situation the most ridiculous that could be con ceived. He was ready to admit, that however desirable the Peace might have been at the time it was concluded, it might be followed by such condod on the part of France, as might render ' a War, .on our part, necessary. He had fre . quently advanced an opinion in that House, for which he had been ridiculed, but which he was still disposed to maintain, viz. that the Ho-. nour of the Country was , the best, if not the only justifiable cause of War; therefore, if a case was clearly made out, that the Honour of the Country • had been insulted ; if it was proved, that we must either submit to disgrace, or go to War, he should feel no hesitation in his decision ; but that case must be very clearly made out before he could consent to involve the Country in a War. Without entering at present, into the consideration of how far po licy, or expediency, would justify us in enter ing into a War, he had no difficOlty in saying, that as far as he could coiled from public informa tion, there never was a time in which this Country would profit more by the continuance of Peace, or in which they• go to War under less favour. able circumstances than at present. Without en_ tering into a discussion of the calamities of War, he Wished the House to look for a moment at the other side of the question. .If France was always to be considered as our rival, even in time of Peace (a proposition to which he could never assent), he • wished to ask if this Country ever had more fair play than in the present Peace ?—Gentlemen had been censured for holding language, in that House, • of a desponding nature, anti calculated to excite alarm ; but what would be thought of him and Inc, Friends if they had said, that: in the case of a WA: we should not he able to cope with . the Navy of France ? He believed that the most gloomy mind, in the moments of its greatest despondency, tle vc • ° entertained such an apprehension. Much had he said about the conduit of the French G o vernmeo i4 their objet was to revive their Commerce and YLI: nufanures, and, if possible; to rival us io tight" points ; but he begged to ask, in what race could we, possibly be engaged with France, in which we s houl .i have such a certainty of success ? We had such e`'' dent superiority in every particular, that we twis t ir ?s evitably gain the race ; nay, even if they had 1 11 7 start of us we must beat them. It was therefohe . better for us to go into a rivalship with France, 11 ! which we were not only sure of vidory, but which every step she made would facilitate our ot° - gress. He did.not mean to say thht this fair VW: sped might not be marred, he only contended th.! the case must be strongly made out indeed, whi ch . would Mike' him wish to contend in War with France rather than in Commerce and Manulaguresi" It was impossible we could have forgotten the exr: Hance of the last ten years, or that we could how, look with very sanguine hopes of a Contine n t' War, carried on by subsidizing German Palaces' The hopes at the beginning of a War we ! ! Often disappointed b its terminati eveatu tristia. y Him. Gentleman had oil that the condun of France since the Treaty' ° Peace had not Wen such 'as we could wish, °c such as we had been taught to exist-set. He did ri „e re member. that any Gentleman, on either side of oe House, had asserted that, on the coiliclusion of Pea&i a complete friendship would be saqssZ,blished betwee7 the two Countries, and that the Government 4 '. France would, in all its measures, . consult the 1 . 11 : terests of Great Britain.—Language of a very di' ferent nature was held ; it %vas said, by one of 1 415 Majesty Ministers,- that Europe was left in a veil unsatisfadory shoe ;, if that was the case, Peace was made; he asked whether the niece state' inent, that Europe still remained in an ors tory state, would jdstify us now in the brealehl it ?—That Europe was in an unsatistory stater or, in other words, that the Power of France , v 3 greater titan he or any Englishman ceuld wish it, 0 did, not deny ; on the contrary, it was'one of the principal grounds of charge against the late Niioisr that all their Measures had tended to throw O f t unexampled degree of power into the floods • ni ` France.—lt undoubtedly was not eossistoh • the Honour of this Country to sohnot insults from France, or from kY'• but on the other hand, it was eqosee with our Honour to give an insult. 1, . sistent with the Honour of this Country to , a France to violate the terms of the Peace, but oat t t other hand, it was not consistent with our 1-10 , ' ° ' n not to fulfil the terms of the Treaty into Mile'. 't had entered. These were all questions which tr i '' s n depend upon a statement of fads, but not lia."1?; those facts before him, it was impossible for 16' 1 ( .4 reason upon them. Even if he were to admi t, j the sake of argument, that we shOuld be jOstin e r in point of policy and expediency, in going to l iVa s ; he was really of opinion that we should be at a I ° i to find, in the conduit of France, arty pretext id o such a measure. He merely argued at present fee 7 1 such fans as were before the Public ; there rtlig.;l be private ones which would Change the t aatteren v the question. Much had been said about the ' position of the People of this Country is'r le r newal of the War,. but he believed that if , er n there was a cry for War purely fidit iv-nn t ,l and artificial, it was the cry made by a coaliti° ll l ,o' a certain number of Newspapers. From wh at na . could coiled of the opinion of the People, he in ld' lieved them to be as warm and. as steady wish - for Peace, as they ever were. I,Vars hat ;miff entered. into upon various causes, often togr3t,cs the ambition of Princes, and sometimes in c a t l s i quence of the intrigues of Faftions ; but 11 p as Country' were now so unfortunate as to enter # 3l, a War, merely because a certain number of th e o ble tors of Newspapers should think it an ;1(1 65 '14 , treasure, in order to increase the sale of th eir tg sc pets, he should nor - hesitate to pronounce it the . 00 i. base, and ignoble War - that ever was entere d I s o l a it was said, that there was another class of tri en ne re wished for the renewal of the War, and tho sell men of great commercial wealth in tlieCaPi r " i 4 , s ee in other parts of the Kingdom ; but to 0" t he tion he would not for a moment give credi r i lte io class of men alluded to, were much - too ehlib ns isi cd and too respectable to wish for the , ra ire miry of their Country, even if it should l inot lJ a source of wealth to themselves. H e ‘in,e rather, if he were "put to the alternative , oi t s at- Country should bleed to gratify the vanity n o sh bition of an Alexander, and so be sacrific ed zy n til l ously, than that it should enter into a Wa r the Coffers of interested Merchants. We h a al was true point , terminated the 'War, in some a 1 0- I.l l a • view, unfortunately ; but he hoped; we s h e°. 1 , ore again rashly plunge into a situation from wh iC er ior' had escaped, in a state of great internal or°q s I bl • s tis u He would at present say no more upon th e j et ;1r except unmake an observation, which tort -iierr, pear a very common one, viz. That War waste lea serious thing, and that People ought not t° l' away with the notion, that it could be fiaiscet'isecl. one Campaign : Upon that subjed we had fe, tio nao Lessons sufficiently severe—He had no CO t . t that with His Majesty's Ministers=he hoped , kJe tat . Peace they made, they approved of. alaimade . they would not say, "It is true svq „p a r& .Peace, but we now repent of our opinion, and therefore, we will e°g 3g o f sti c/v War." He did not accuse the IVlioisters t heta'` . sentiments ; from his Soul he acquit meta could be sr . of any such feeling--If Ministers co a J ared by any such feeling, they would stall , s o a s nua tr) - invidious and odious light to this h' a ce, fear 661 n t r 3 e rn to Europe. We had nothing to C o , i t —We have $ -one way, or, indeed, in any way from " ihi i c . ' t h i s ; v a e d cec i a tt secure ourselves by means of'S . Vae- ru f argued, as a justification. tor this del . ,as - War, that France interfered in the 1: 0 . ne il; Germany; but he begged to aso., tvhethes not known when the Definitiec TrestY s% be 1 0° old . -to that France would interfere, and it wo ro es me P a strolls, after we had- refused to beco ue . CO ,„ 0 te the Treaty of Luneville, af:ertear, {jp, COUntrY ..1"-tie5 ;In investigation of the whole of its tern: ale o i ls) r n , hest consideration he was able to give faetheoo lie really , thought it was not unfortunaco, ha d g telCSti of Europe, that France and itus•''',,