The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-09 00:00:00

missed ; the numbers of them - reduced •IrflOttilC.; t_;,45 men. Of all other descriptions of force the numbers reduced amounted only to 'joze men, and of these a very large number were enlisted only for a 'limited period of service : and though they were - net, 'perhaps., .strialy speaking, entitled to their discharge on the conclusion of the Treaty of Peace, yeras the At was so worded as to give room fur doubt, he thought it was right that the good faith cif Government should, be preserved, and that if the men thought they were entitled to their discharge, that they should receive it. Many of these men were also 'entitled to their discharge on account of their wounds. In addition to this, he had only to state, that the British Army was at no period of our History in a better state of discipline and or der than they were at present ; it was never composed of more able bodied men, or possessed mote animation or military spirit, and was never • commanded by more able and experienced General Officers, In the flower of their age, and in the full posseSsion of their strength and faculties. The Army was also commanded by a Prince who under stood his profession as - well as any Prince in Europe, and who devoted the whole of his time and atten tion to the perfection of our Military Force. In addition to this formidable Force, we had an aug mented Militia Force - in Great Britain of near 50,000 men, and which was capable, if necessity re quired it, of being augmented 20,000 men more. Besides all this His Majesty had been enabled to accept the services of the YeOmanry Corps, and above SOOO of them, chiefly Cavalry, were already enrolled in England ; and in Ireland there were of the same species of Force, above ro,coo Cavalry, and a greater number of Infantry. Ail these dif: ferent descriptions of Forces taken together would snake (exclusive of the Army of India) an Army of • above zco,ooo men, a species of Force which would now in his opinion,' very much tempt any Foreign Power to attack us. This being the aaual state of our Military Establishment, and of cur means of defence, he thought he had given a direa contradic tion to those charges of - timidity and credulity 'which had been made against the King's Ministers. He should now, with the permission of the Com mittee, propose the first Resolution. The Chairman having read the first Resolution, BANKES said, he did not intend to have taken part in the bebate, but that he had been alluded to, by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He vas glad that his arguments had been reverted to, because he felt himself strengthened and confirmed in the sentiments he had before advanced. He had attended with great diligence to every thing that had been urged in opposition to his opinion, and if any good grounds had been offered to .con vince his mind, he should have felt no hesitation in changing his opinion. But after all that had been urged, he still retained his opinion that there were other circumstances connected with the defence of this Country, which did not depend upon the main tenance of a large Standing Army.. In stating his sentiments upon this question, he felt great diffidence in differing from many of his Hon. Friends, for whose abilities and judgment he had the greatest respect. If he differed from them upon the degree of force which we ought to keep up in time of Peace, it was not because he was less - concerned than they were at the aggrandizement of France, or that he did not think her views less hostile to this Country: The whole of his conduit during the War sheaved that he was anxious to prevent the, aggrandizement of France. If he differed from his Hon. Friends, it was that he thought more highly of the natural means and resources of this Country, not that he thought the power of France• less formidable than they did. But the question, in his, opinion, to be considered was this, whether in en deavour ing to guard against danger, we should throw away what appeared to him our best means 'of de. fence. When he heard arguments urged respecting the relative state of the two Countries, and when he knew that that relative state wonld continue as long as the Peace, and that consequently the present Peace .Establishment must be a permanent one, it became Iris duty to consider, whether wie were not wasting our .Resources, to guard against a danger which did not exist. He knew it had been contended, that no Economy was worse than that .of a low Peace Esta blishment ; and the Right lion. Gentleman had stated, that the Country was exposed to great dan ger, from the smallness of our Peace Establishments: on former occasions, he could only say, that those Establishments were found adequate to the purpose for which they were intended, and that they kept the Country in a state of great respthability abroad, and of security at home. But it we were to corn. pare our Establishments with the Establishments of France, and if they were to be the measure of what we ought to keep up, if we were•never to be consi dered as safe unless we had a Military Force equal to that of France, then he had no hesitation in de claring, that it would be impossible for us to keep up such a force without absolute ruin. Such an idea, he woutd - venture to say, was never entertained by any StafeSman in this Country. The Military Establishment of France was stated to consist of near • half a Million of Men ; • it was obvious, that this '• Country had not the means of keeping up,such permanent force. Our Ancestors always thought, that there were 'something else besides mere num bers, upon Which the safety of the Country depended. There was in this Kingdom a radical strength, a love •• of the Constitution, which was a better security than the numbers of. Armies. If 'we were quiet and Contented at home, it was not half a million of men drawn up on the opposite Coast, that ought to 'create a panic in this Country. He wished to ask • if our insular situation was to be counted for nothing? lit did not wish to rely entirely upon that circum stance, but it certainly . was entitled to considers_ •••tion-=Nothing would make the people.more anxious co defend their rights than when they fbund that a stria econotny was practised at' home.—How had we been able to make such great exertions in former Wars ? Not by our population, not even' by the courage and skill of our Sailors and Soldiers, i:ut by *the public credit and public confidence • we haie always Maintained.—He did not mean that public credit and confidence were every thing, and' . that great wealth might not tempt • 2 . po e iful Nation to come and plunder ,us. He admitted that money was not the only sinew of Wale, because. the Nation that had men and itun ivouid soon g!'s possetsion of it. Much had be • said of - the tfifference of the stitte of Europe, but ltq hoped that in future care would be taken how - .tve were involved in Continental Alliances. He agreed very much with what had fallen - from an Hon. Friend of his upon a former occasion, that the great fault of the policy of this Country had been that of implieat-- ing it in too many Continental Alliances. They had occasioned great expence to this Country, and had led us into Wgrs rather to fidfil our engage ments than to maintain British interests. One of the great grounds o security which in his opinion this Country possessed was, that since the period of the Civil Wars, there never was so many men in it trained and accustomed to Arms, and who might easily be called together in case of any sudden emer gency.' The appearance of security was often the best means of security ;‘ if our safetv depended upon our having 60,000 men, he wished to know what would that avail against the whole Force of France, but if we relied with confidence upon a small Force, the Enemy must be convinced that we had some great and powerful means of defence in reserve. Was it quite clear that the French were desirous of trying their strength with us ? ' Upon out own element they could not contend with us, and upon land the rxperince they had in Egypt, must make them not particiilarly anxious to venture a contest with us upon our own shore. Besides, it was the interest of France and her Government to maintain Peace, mid therefore he could not enter tain the same, apprehensions upon that subjea that were entertained by many of his Honourable Friends. Ministers had been charged with having reduced the Public Force too rapidly, but he was never among those who entertained that opinion, and he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had given a decisive an swer to any charge of that kind. It appeared to him that a great part of our expence might be saved by giving the sdldiers leave of absence during a part of the year, as was done upon the Continent, by increasing the number of dismounted Cavalry, and by having a larger provisional Force, similar to that which had been already established. He apologized to the Committee for detaining them so long, but he thought it right to throw out these hints, because he considered the present Motion as the commencement of a large and expensive Peace Establishment. Sir W. w:. WYNNE adverted to that part of the Speech of the Secretary at War which related to the discharging of men before the expiration of the term for whiCh • they were enlisted. lie said they were enlisted for five years, or during the War, and that, therefore, they were not entitled to be discharged at the end of the War, if it expired before the end of five years, whatever opinions some might have entertained to the contrary, and, therefore, Government was not bound to discharge them. He thought it necessary to take notice of that part of the Speech of the Right Hon. Gentle man, in order to spew that Ministers were not un der the absolute necessity of discharging men as they had done. He should not wish to oppose the large Establishment which was now proposed, pro vided the reasons had been assigned by Mini. sters, stating this necessity. But he thought it was too much for Ministers to ask votes without any explanation whatever, to such an extent as this; and the House must not forget that our ancestors always beheld with great jealousy all large esta blishments in time of Peace. We had heard indeed in His Majesty's Speech, a general reference to the state of Europe, and the House had agreed in the necessity of assenting to that sentiment ; nor did he deny the existence of A necessity for this establish tnent, what he contended for was, that it was too much for Ministers to ask it of that House without having given some iEformation upon that subjeft. The SECRETARY at WAR said, in explanation, that the Hon. Baronet was certainly corral i n stating, that in strianess, the men to whom he alluded were not entitled to their discharge, for that the period of their engagement was not at an end with the period of the War ; but he must repeat what lie said in the opening of this Debate, that what Ministers did upon this oc casion, was not a compliance with what might be justly demanded, but from a desire of avoiding all disputes upon the subjeit. Wishing not to appear harsh, and that the more especially as the men, tho' not by Government, had been misled upon that sub jea, and taught to believe, they were intitled to their discharge ; it was, therefore, a mere aft of mildness in His Majesty's Government to consent to it. Sir EYRE COOTE said, that he should be very short in what he had to advance to the House. The large force it was now proposed to be voted for the current year, appeared to him necessary, in order to place us in that situation which prudence dictated, in order to guard Us against any unfortunate, un foreseen circumstances that might occur ; and to enable us, if necessary, to repel any attack, any insult upon cur honour, or experiment upon . our rights. He conceived, that the Force - nok, posed, though perhaps more than fully sufficient to guard our very wide and extended possessions, yet it was prudent to have a disposeable Force, in the possible event of an attack, to be employed as occa sion might requite, and to meet any difficulty which might, in any shape, be opposed to us. Ireland, he said, would reqUire a great part of the Force now proposed to be voted, and he took the liberty of stating, from some degree bl experience, that the plan to be adopted with regard to Regiments, was superior now, to that which formerly took place; he alluded to the number of which Regiments were composed ; formerly they consisted of three or four hundred men, but they were now between seven and eight hundred: a plan of which he approved as being more effective. He considered, that the times at present were big with momentous events ; we were all bound to look upon them with the most serious attention; he hoped His Majesty's Ministers would ad with that firmness and. dignity, that was requi site in such a conjUndure of affairs, and such as was worthy the character of Government, and the great . Peope, whose interests it was their duty to prated. We all wished to have a continuance of -Peace, but he believed there was no ,Man in that House, nor any. virtuous Man in this United. Kin gdom of England and Ireland, who .would consent to continuing Peace IY:1 any terms, that were not con. : . sistent with the charaaer of the 'United Natio' ns, for integrity and honour. ~ . Lord TEMPLE said, that consistently with the principles upon which he had acted in that House since our establishments had been proposed, it could trot be expe&ed of him that he should oppose the ' present Motion on account of the excess of our Military Force which it proposed. Conceiving as• he did that every thing that was dear to this Coun try, depended upon its exertions at the present mo ment, he was indeed convinced that our best exer tions should be made in order to meet, if necessary, the last extremity., Convinced, as he certainly was, that the main objeaseof France was to destroy this Country--Convinced, as he was, that the ruling passion of that , Country was to accomplish that destruction, as the glorious end of ail its efforts, and, therefore, he would say, Gud fotbid, that any vote of his should tend to damp the spirits of this Country, or indeed to check the spark of spirit with which His Majesty's Ministers at last seemed to be moved, for it was indeed but a spark ; he was, however, glad to see it ; he must observe, that although he should vote for the present resolution, the manner in which His Majesty's Ministers had brought our establishments forward, was not justi fiable ; because they called for large votes of supply without a statement, which the House had a right to expert, by way of official information. He could not help observing the manner in which the Navy Estimates were prepared; no official information preceded the proposed vote upon that subject, nor did he believe any information at all would have been conveyed had it not been for the laudable zeal of a worthy relative of his, who had first called for that. information, and which produced that Debate. The House had indeed, to-night, heard a Speech previous to the Vote which was now before it, a very able and eloquent Speech, containing sentiments which, as an individual, did the Hon. Gentleman who delivered it, the' highest credit : the House had heard, that Peace should be preserved, if possible, but that War should be en -tered into, if honour required it—God knows, that was the substance of all the information which it contained. Not a word of explanation,' in what light we were to consider those Estimates—whe_ tiler they were the Estimates of War, or' the Esti mates of Peace. . As to the situation of the Coun try, whether we were likely to continue in Peace, or going to War, not a word of explanatiOn—no thing of the language which he expected to be held out to France, and which it was the duty of this Country to hold to France—" thus for shall you - go, but no farther." The House might, indeed, be said to be voting au immense Eitablishment, without a word of Official Information concerning the real na ture of it. But there was one point which he thought called loudly on Ministers to explain, now that they were proposing this large Establish ment, which was, why, during the whole Summer, they followed a System of Reduction ? He heard a Right Honourable Gentleman declare, that not a single man bad been discharged, who could have been retained, after a given period. This he de nied, and for which he would aPpeal to fans. In a Committee• of Supply, 95,000 men were voted ; on the Ist of June, orders were issued from the War-office, to reduce the Army on the 24;11—and it has since been reduceit nearly w one-half, in the instance of five Regiments. Some were reduced in September, and _some so late even as the 4th of Oc tober. This he said was the more culpable, as Mi nisters had received information that St. Domingo was completely in the power of the French, by which, of course, they might be the more formidable to this Country, if so disposed ; and of that dis position no man could V entertain a doubt. The truth was, that, during the whole of the sum. , mer, in proportion as the French we're increasing their strength, , we were diminishing ours.—He then proceeded to observe on the affairs of Switzer land. He said, that Mr. Moore, a Gentleman highly meriting every Braise that could be bestowed upon him, well known to be entitled to the highest respea for the sersices he had rendered, had all at , once disappeared from this Country, and appeared in Switzerland, where, it was alledged, he held some conferences with the Swiss Insurgents. What his instructions were from this Country were not likely to be known soon ; but every one who knew that Gentleman, knew that he followed his instruc tions implicitly. He could only say, on this sub. jea, that it was an additional proof of the misconduct of His Majesty's Ministers; for, if they intended that the mission of that Gen. tleman to Switzerland should •be of any use, it should have been accompanied with afts to give it effect, and nothing could du so without preparations in this Country for hostilities, if necessary ; instead of which, at that very time, Ministers were dis banding their forces. He then proceeded to censure the conduct of Ministers ever since the Peace, for haviog constantly observed a system of Reduction ; but having done so, he had'done no more, he said, than his duty, in order to explain the grounds on which he voted that night—it being a qualified vote, a vote arising from a conviftion of the neces sity of the measure, but not from an approbation, of the condua of Ministers.—lt might, indeed, be said, as it had been said, on a former occasion, that it was keeping up the system of Ministerial Votes, and Opposition Speeches, that he approved the Measures and disapproved of the Men—that was precisely the case, he had approved of the Mea sures, and disapproved of the Men ; and it was per fectly well understood to be so. Ile was of opinion, that the Government. was at present placed in the hands of Men, who were unfit to condua it. He knew, indeed, but one Gentleman, who Wa6 fit for that purpose, and hint, he wished to see in that Office ; he.was a man to whom the Country looked up, on whom the minds of the Country were fixed, and who possessed the entire and unlimited con fidence of this Country. He concluded with ob serving, that it was on the necessity of grunting great Supplies, that he grounded his assent to the present Vote, but repeated, - that His Majesty's Ministers had, proved -themselves to be unfit for their Offices, and their confidence in themselves seemed to increase in proportion as the confidence of the Country in them seemed to diminish. • Gessexed MA/TLAND said, if he concurred in any thing which had been said to-night by the M LA: Lard who had just sat down, it was in the sen. tiMent of approbation he ex p res!.‘d 'of Oil. -% of the Right Hon, G.-...ntlen - nm who had o ; .teti th ls Debate ; ii;deed it was so able oral Speech, that it left little to be said on the same had it not been for some observations which were made upon it, and on the general corduCt 0f 1. 17 nisters ; nor should he have said any thing to-nIV E had. it not for, been some.of these observations. ee. Hon. Gentleman who-immediately followed the Se' cretary at War, had adverted to the practice of ° Le ' ll ancestors, and to the wisdom of their pradieca was very tar from denying tile Coastitutioaal under which they acted; bat before we eotaludeu. upon that subjeCt e we ought to consider %rat' f !.. was likely our ancestor s W ou ld h ave d o ne, had fll°7 • • ; been placed in our citeumstaaces They had - 3 / w: lY s. manifested, in the best periods of our a great regard for the Preservation of the - alai - Ince the Power of Yurope. it was always their I'oif e 7' to support that Balance: he was warranted in sa yirgf that if our Ancestors had been surrounded with 'le circumstance s which now surroun d us , theyova°" have at least made as much preparation to meet ant' possible event, as we are now making ; he said 1 4 was judging of what they would do, by looking what they had done ; and he would add, that which had been said by the Honourable Genii- e l • Man (Mr. Biaaas), on the subjed of o ur se" curity being in Economy, Economy, did not tiOri - to our situation, at the present. mom e nt. But 0 0° he would take a short view of the Speech of 0 .1- Noble Lord who had just sat down, wh o 'had saw'l , that Ministers had not offered any argument for tlf.- Establishment which they now proposed. To t l "s he would answer, that arguments were unneces s3 ‘J —if there were any who really wanted argumen e f - s e upon the subjeds, he would begin with them, by asking what they thought of the present Situation ° Europe—whether that was enough to justify t heVl.l now proposed ? If they told hint not, h e believe' that argument with them would be useless, at 1 61 ! C as far as he was capable of conceiving the fot' e f of an argument, for it transcended his idea ? to human ingenuity to prodoce another argument ti favour of the present Vote, than was to be ILO; lir the present state of Europe. He woukl not tl°' t go over the'state of alt the Powers of Europe, I P I he should just intrear the Committee (what w'ai deed not necesaary; since every Member of ic,` v4 k. ready enough to do without an y i n tre e ty) , t 0 I°° „' e at the present state of Fracce ; her power for :A ct ': and defence ; and the ) without any other consit ic ; ration, although there were many otheni, would 6 a suflicient cause for the Vole now before the C 0 mittee. He desired 10 10 - 0 k at the temper and dition - of the Governor and Governed of that CJu il ; try. He knew there was a difference of 0 r i0.," on that subjed, but ehe - was confident of chill that the Moat judicious men in France, as w as the rest of Europe, were convinced that a t as this . moment the heading, ruling passion of People of France was military enterpriz6 ap that the GoVermaent of that Country at r i f, sent was the Government of the !:.-oword ; and atg the person at the head of it was, it - not the gre at `:, or the firet, the most ambitious General 10 rape. Was . there not something to be added to th' s e i he mait4ained there was. Our feelings were 1 . 7 p hostile to France upon principles of general - iti" A ship"; but the vivahhir 4 Fretwe to.w...a.rdt us 1 1 4 Item the jealousy they felt at contemplatiavg,, happiness of this Country, anal they envied out ~ J tale stitution. With regard to Switzerland, he w ° , ," 01 . only say that he agreed with the Secretary c at ire as to the propriety of abstaining from the use of of ritating language : but on that subjed he would ire " fc venture to give a name to his feelings. if ever was a breach of trust aolennly reposed, and ab'r6t fully violated,• it was to be found in the conel ° o of France towards Switzerland ; but what fe: ho did that teach him ? What inference di u i,„t draw front it ? He drew this inference, ‘ a France having proved herself to have the will , ought to take care that she shall not have means to offend' us. He looked at their prel' 3 , e; tions for Sea and force by Land, with great anlc le s ,a although he had great pleasure in refletting, that ion had voted so,ooo Seamen, and that 48,000 of might be ready in a few days, if necessary ; but 0 ' 11 " o ; ever might be clone by our Navy, and every tt yt would be done that a Navy could do, yet we In au , also have a considerable Army, and under th e • e f ' spices of its present illustrious Commander in C h at f. every thing might be expeCted, that a great i%r could accomplish. Here he pronounced all eor gium on the talents and charader of His 14g i f t o Highness the Duke of York, and paoless_ e feel pride in being an. humble Member of the' Eddy, which was under such command. fice t itltt proceeded to observe on a point without sv" e ff i , he said, neither Army or Navy could b e the • event for a long continuance, and that sfla'' f 1 Spirit of the People. He said, that the Spirit ° People of this Country was perfediy pacific '`, if time the -Peace was made, and he was eonfiden; o etla had not 'been made, the Table of that Hoosc ee t" have - been crowded with - Petitions for I" foto tainment of 'that obja, and which mas t ' a o0'; their force, immediately impede, and finally rt .tA trod the procedings . of that House in sall' ° olo the War ; fur such was the relation betWeel fice Representative, and the Constituent Body 01 0 . 3 g al Stile, like ours, that the one could never iontamil ceed without the approbation of the other.; 1 - I P`! ri' . te rsf occasion he had looked at the onduat of 1 141 "' s 1 F" both with regard to their agreeing to t oe . ilc e and their conduit in the Establishment they ha. a ,,, l l l ,icti recommended to Parliament to adopt, b o fore it that House had adopted, and part was now c oo and he was ready to declare, that in the whole ° l.e as Ministers had his entire approbation. But th e ta kifig another suhied o f which he could not help to acit y novice=--The Noble Lord had declared the ioc' e P to. b° of the present Ministers—Now, if they wen sac soee removed, the question was, who w as , likeir,: iri x ceed them ?—The Noble Lord could not to io ,o part of v the Hdnourable Gentleman below him (Mt' 'o t he could not 'think of wishing to see at ,he ' beg hate d His Majesty's Councils man who had-coar"s c i t e to seal the death-warrant of his Coallt r Y: er al° . Noble Lord called the Treaty of I'dt:.:cee,'l`ay eft 1-lon. 'Gentleman had always - most •,a) pressed approbation , of the' . Peace. s tg Hon. Centlemao on the same Bench with j a or perhaps suit the disposition of the I'l'W° 1