The Sun. — London, England, 1807-01-17 00:00:00

f rjltn Printing the Army Estitnates, The printing of the Ordnance Estimates had been advantageous, I nasmuch as it had led to - an investigation, the result of which, in his opinion, 'had done great honour 'to the. Ordnance Board. When he said 6®, he begged it to' he understood that he had no Particular connexion with any Member of it. -The ground on which he would vote for printing . 'these stimates was, that it was impossible for every Alember to read them at the table before Wednes dV, even Supposing that they had_ begunlroln the tune of esenting them. No man could contend that the Houser uld be full infoirned asio the con tents of the Papers;' unlesS they' were printed.' But it Was presumed that all vv 16 came . to this'Hoose to give votes, were in full possession of the nature and merits of 'the case. Whether or not"hey could be Printed so as to afford SUffi'cient 'time 'for . theflonse tc lbeprepared to discOia them oh Wednesday he t° old not say, but he was Satigliedlbatihe.atteMpt - °ugllt to be made.' ..Szr ROBERT WILLIAMS obseivtti,.that it.ap- Peared that there must 'be a Considerable cliff4rence „ B etween the Abstra& and" tlie''details,* . as - a Nettle Lord (Castlereagh) who had an opportunity of being veil informed on the subject, had:only'tobved for. Printing the AbstraCt.' If, therefore, the printing of the details would afford any . .iibpditant information to the Enemy, most certainly it ought to be - op - pcy . 2.ed: Ile wished to krrow from the' Noble - 2tord'upon - \that ground it was that he moved fox printing the Abstract only - An Honourable Gentleman, whose name AA' . could t learn, .said,. that he would vote for printing the ails, unless - the Abstra& ebritained'• all that was . 4eeessary to eriale the HOuse to form a proper opi ili°ll' on the subje , a. Lord CASPLEREAGI-I, in - reply to . the Hon. , B arnet who had appealed to him, observed, that - he 'lad not moved for printing the'AbStrael frOm any idea that it was a 'safer 'Paper, for the . Abstrad conveyed completely tbe principal points.' - It stat ed the amount of the force at home , in the rlantations, and in the EaSt Indies, separately; .. rapers this. was the only \information from these rapers that could be of use to the 'Enemy, if. flie information could be of use. to them at all. The gjound on which he had nioved for the printing or t he Abstra& only was, that it contained all the in formation which .he himself wanted with a view to kale paa..ticillar Points*. • • The SECRETARY at WAR, in explanation, Zd, that Gentlemen seethed to have Understood' n to haVe asierted, th - at these Papers would con veY information to the enemy. Undoubtedly„even the discussiOn of them -- woold'tbnvey infOrrnatiori to t he ene m y, as di sc o ss i ons ' Were more open 'her' i f li.in' 4.1 other Gov,Ornnients,... `Pile only questin •then -as'----how the 'House' could - r) its duty withoUt be tVing, to the enemy those particulars that did. not t ecessarily - ,cOnae into 'discussion ? ..T . pon 'this (Ines lion' th ere might be different opinions. The Muse I. c . ould ri3Colled iliat.he had spoken .With trierelliinbt On - the - subje6l - .., ..T,he. Noble LOrd (Ca,:qere4ll)' thongl i t, Abitr.a& sOkijient-th'er wisi-Lid-i'fai . ' inure detailed' in(otmation.—[The Right Hon. Se cretary was 'proceeding ladher when he was 'called . to.'order,] , _._ - - - Mr. JOHNSTONE Would 'not have trespassed frier On the_ tirne.of the. House, had it not been ' ivi i n tl i a view to, do. justice, to, himself in repelling - the s ln uations (dna Noble Lord, wilo - had . hiFAed that o b e , said one, thing., while he m ~ eant.another: - ~ - Ilk' Iza ) e ft was not 'to occasion tlell-; but t::exaene t i ' ll utely those Papers. He would" have no ohji.o-. ' , 4n to grant some Money. on account, v. nt, if it , as Secre tary immediately, a had been said by the Sicre t"ny of the Treasury... Brit- hiS objeatwas, from a :areftil examination of the:.contents . of the papers, '0 e e• wheth er th ere was not TOOM . for reform in the tt at x Pendisure. The first zn - g - utn-rit of the `Secretary • a` , .V - ar akas futile, and his second was not better. hlt was his objection ?_ Why . ) ; that these Papers . %lid convey iniorimition to the enemy. Of ‘4iat i o c '' .4 d they convey information ? Of the strength of ~...1 11" force--a thing .that %% as 'universally known, and" ' .4.1i,0 , . .. , - 4 0 1 . be, earned from the monthly pitblicitions.— ' th " the corps here mentionedde , •crihed as of , east sanie strength, but there was a dideience of at , k it . fifty thousand men ,between that 'and their i o e 'll strength. ' Twenty iegimentS of - 'cavalry, Iv t ' instance, were described .as consisting of up= ar ds of 900 men. each. Delay was nOt his `object. Of ' motive was, if possible, to enforce chose planS ), e , oho m y which the Geitilemen on the other Side 'sa, I made such a bluster about while in Opposition. __tleir condo& might not perhaps come td be disenssed ' vv n the present occasion. But other Opportunities 11 °111 d occur, when it Wonlif appear that they lial ' tal ked attended to that economy about which they had e 'ked so much, but that they had grunted 'new and , x a ttrayagant salaries to themselves. On, the priaci- L . Points in these Papers there could not in ,the t e i n 'esent circumstances be much swing : but a great _ a ' a 1 of saving niight be made. in many cohtindent "'ititiculars. It was- to the ,ExtraordioarieS of the i .,„ I MY that he wished to turn his attention 'in a r e r ticular Manner. Oil that point . he Wanted to toe fly informed, and that was: , the 'reason why Pri tite e d sir ed., the whole of these Papers to be Z.Ord ' • , at d HO WICK ob s erved,. that he now under no from the Hon. Gentleman, that be Wished not f ormed Y, but that all he wanted was to be fully in , . on this subject, in order to see whether Mi ters had aeled up to those principles of economy they they had formerly professed, .and whether . . _ Shewn an inclination - to redeem their PledYgebsadto the Public. If that was the Mound Z o which t h e H onourable Gen t leman rested his 0 ... tam, he w ou ld b e i nc li ne d to w i t hd raw hi s suPrpeossition. , He ' was anxious that all the inea a,,, of the Administration should be carefully a nd minutely examined and canvassed'. The t_., the Gentleman had said that they had . wast- Lle , public money, and granted new and exorbi tant .salaries to themselves. He wished that their that . .should be sifted to the bottom, and hoped, tn since these charges had been preferred they Vould be d the ~..,_t .s peedily brought forward, that the House - j In oi..`-, their validity. might have an opportonity of jodg- Itood trhnati tvhalidity. Now, if it should be under ahould not la e discussion of the Army Estitnates -' edelayed, though the Papers should Aot be printed m time, he had no objection to ‘N ith tr "a* his .ipposition with this reservation. 'Lie -,oble Lord on the other 'side (Castlereagh) had said tit the would ilbstraa answer his purpose; If more 4 was wanted, it was unfortunate that the Motion .had not been made sooner. The Honourable Gen-; Ileman had given no notice of it, and he Was not prepared no for the danger of communicating in formation to the enemy might be irreased by print ing the whole . %of the Papers. If, therefore, .the Honourable Gentleman would postpone his Motion till to-morrow, an opportunity would be afforded of comparing the Papers. ' (The Secretary at War here mentioned to him, that the only . difference- was in the greater particularity of the details.) . His Honourable Friend. had informed him, that there .was no Material difference, and therefore' he would agree to the Motion, it being understood that there should be no delay of the discussion, for to that he could not consent. Mr. JOHNSTONE observed that he would not op pose the vote of such a, sum as might be immediately wanted, and this be conceived would remove all in convenience. Mr. PERCIVAL said, .. that every one" would allow that it was necessary to see these Papers in the mean time, in order to be enabled to enter upon,a discussion with respeet to the contents: But if the vote should be passed on Wednesday, it must be done without any one.liaving an opportunity of ex amining the Papers itt the mean time, supposing they should be now sent to the Printer, and could not be finished' before the proposed time of discus sion: T But what would do away. all these difficulties would be to vote A considerable sum on. Wednesday„ on account, if the Papers shotild not be printed ie fore that time; L-ord.HOITICK - asked why the':moticn bad not been made sooner, andwhy'they now took occasion to press it at this late period ? Full tiimi. had been . given for any gucliMotion, Mu& more than, to his knowledge, ,had been given ,in some former years. The only ground on which be.couid agree to . the Motion - wa - s, that it might afford an opportunityof sitting the condnol. of -Ministers, and bringinc' the charges ag a i nst the to a discussion, if the m Hon.. Gentleman should-tind any reason, to prefer them. He could not consent to delay the. vote.. •• ii r. WHITBREAD observed,that it was his in, tention at firstto have supported the motion, for he was satisfied that 'Paperscould convey no ma , - terial information to the enemy. But he congra tulated- -the .House and the Country on the great change which had taken place in the c,onduCt ofthe Learned Gentleman . opliosite (Mr: PerCival), who was so ready with his charges of changing against others• The' House and the Country: must. be • • pecnliarly happy to find, that he who had for= merly objected to all information on these 'points, • was now suddenly become so zealous an anvOcate for information. The Learned(;eutlenian 'certainly wished for delay. NoW, if the Papers were to b e printed with-a view, to, the ulterior purpose of the Hon. Mover ; he would certainly, not 'objet to the • motion. But he would- vote against printing them, unless it was tuiiy understood that, there was to be no delay of thy vbte. PintolvAL- said, that' his only objet :had been tol-obviateditheulties. • Lord'Howt-cx. thought that the best course would be for'the Hon: Gentleman to withdrw his IVlotion for the present, and leave the Papers on the table tiathe vote was passed; atter which he might have the Papers printed, with a view to the ulterior ob ► jest for winch he wanted them. - Mr. JOHitISTONE -wished to knoW from ' Speaker; how tar it Was reasonable to sulipose that the Papers might be:prinied , before Wectrieday. Si.E , Aßini-observed, that:Where there were • a great many figures, it .:1111pOssible' eyed for, tho,e most conversant with the:business to calculate e%ael ly. • Lord H. PETTY observed, that the sane' rea son (the multnu u o(tht figures) which rendered it dirlicuit to pri,lt Pape T s in a short time, also tendered it difficult to examine them minutely. It Would be better to leave the Papers on the table iii the Mean time. 'He theretdre suggested, whe ther the object=of toe' Honourable Gentleman, for •lie was anxious that the- minutest inquiries should take place into all the branche; of the 'public.xx penthiore, would not be 4nswered by leaving the Papers in the 'Mean time,' and moving to. have theni . printed afterwards ? ' Mr. FULLER hoped that the Abstraa would at all events be printed in the mean time. • Mi. JOHNSTONE then withdrew his Motion. . . VOLUNTEERS. • . Lord H. PETTY moved for a Return of the Effec , • five - Strength of the Volunteers on the Ist • of Jan. 1805..—Agreed NEWRY ELECTION, Sir JOHN _NEWPORT 0 - esented a Petition frOnt the Right Honourah4e Isaac Corry, praying 64. time for entering into the Recognizance . might be :enlarged.- The ground - was, the , distanee. which the sureties had to come, and the possible delay from ,adverse winds. He moved, .That the time be enlarged for three weeks. The discussion upori` this Motion was postponed till' Tuesday. DUBLIN i'—EC.TION. Mr. STURGES BOURNE, presented 3 Petition from. Mr. John Hawkins, praying for an enlatzetnent of the time for entering into the Recognizance with respeato the Peiition against The Return of Mr. Grattan. .The ground was, that the Petitioner could not . find Mr. Grattan in order to serve the notice within the limited time. He moved, That the time be enlarged to the sth of Feb.—The discussion 'was postponed till Tuesday., .. The Inspetor . of Convictspresented' a Report; which was ordered to lie on the table. The Repon of the Indemnity Bill was - considered, the Amendments agreed to, mid the Bill ordered to be read , a third time on Tuesday.—Adjourned till 'Tuesday. IRISH MILITIA. Mr. CHARLES W; WYNNE tneved, according, to notice, for leave to bring in a Bill to continue the At for Enabling his Majesty to accept the otierS of such of the Irish Militia as should volunteer : to ex tend their §ervices to this Country. His object: was, .that the At should be coiitinued.dnring the. war. Leave given. --The Bill was afterwards brought in, read a2lst_tilne,,and ordered to be read a 2d time on Tuesday next. . • . MILBOURNE PORT ELECTION. Lord FOLESTONE presented a Petition, praying for an enlargement of time for e ntering i nto a Recog nizance in the - Case of the Mißiourne Port Elec tion. The' grOund of this Motion was i that the Agent for the Petitioner, a coun try,atto rney , did not know of the Order of the House requiring a notice . to be given to the Sitti n g M em ber of th e t i me w h en the RecognizanCe was to be entered into by the Petitioner. He held in his hand another Petition, stating, that the Attorney, had not received the Speaker's Order till the 14th of this month, owing to its not being sent by the Mesienger, though the Attorney had left directions for that purpose.. He moved, That the time be enlarged to Wednesday next. The SPEAKER stated, that it was no gOod ground for this Motion to state that an old andestablished Order of the House was not known. The Messen gers were not. in the pra6tice of sending the Speaker's Orders to any Agent .not residing in LondOn,, and it would be attended with great inconvenience if this should be altered. " Mr. LEYCESTER, Mr. WYNNE, and Mr. PERCI: VAL, severally objeCted to the Motion, and were of opinion, that the prayer of the Petition could not be granted. The first of these Gentlemen stated, that the Speaker's Order had nothing to do with the Recognizance. It only referred to the time when the merits of the case were to be tried: The Motion was then put and negatiimd. From the AMRICRATIPAPERS. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. DECEMI3R 2. This day the PRESIDENT' of the United States com municated, by Mr. • COLES, his Secretary, the following Message to both Houses or Congress To the Senate and House of Representatives of the United Stoles of America in Congress assembled. " It would have given- me, Fellow Citizens, great satisfaaion - to announce, in the, moment , of your meeting, that the difficulties in our foreign relations existing at the time of your last separation, had been amicably and justly terminated. , • ".1 have- lost no time in taking those measures which were most likely to bring them to such a termi nation, by special missions; charged with such powers and, instructions as, in the event of failure, could leave no imputation on either our moderation or for kearance: The delays which have since taken place in our Negotiation with the, British Goernment appear to have .proceeded from causes which do not forbid the expectation that, , luring the course of the SessiOn, I way be enabled to lay before you their final issue.' " What will \ be that of the Negotiation for set tling our differences with Spain, nothing whiCh had taken place, at the date. , of the-lastdispatcbes, en ables us to prOnoUnce. On the western side of the Mississippi she advanced in -considerable fOrce, and took post at the Settlement Bayou Pierre, on the Red River., This village was or i g i na lly sett l e d b y . France, was held by her as long as she held Louisi ana, and was delivered - to •Spain only as a part \of Louisiana. Being small, insulated, and distant, it was not obServed at the :moment 'of re-delivery - to Franceand the United States, that she continued a guard of half a dozen j'en, which had been sta tioned there. A proposition however having been lately made by our Commander in Chief, to assume the Sabine River as a temporary line of separation be tween the troops of the two Nations, until the issue of our Negotiations shall be known, this has been referred by the-Spanish Commandant to his Superior,. and in the mean time :bo has withdrawn his force to the wi;,;*rn . side of the Sabine River. The cor respondence on this - subj&'et, now communicated, will exhibit more particularly the present state of things in that quarter. " - The natitre of that Country requires indispen-, sibly that an unusual proportion of the force em ployed there should be cavalry,:or mounted infantry. In order therefore that the Commanding Officer might be enabled to ac} with effed, I had authorised him to call - oil the Governors of Orleans and Mis sissippi, for a Corps of five hundred Volunteer Ca valry. . The - tempory arrangement he has proposed, may, perhaps, render this unnecessary. But I in form you with great pleasure, of the prOmptitude with which the inhabitants bf those territories haVe tendered their services in defence of their Country. It has done honour to themselVes, entitled them to . the confidence of their fellov-citizens in every part . of the Union, and must 'stren g th en t h e general de-, termination. to protect them efficaciously under all circumstances which may occur. Having received informati on th a t i n :anot h er &mot . the United States a great number of private individuals were combining together, arming, and organizing:themselves, contrary to law, to carry on a Military expedition against th e Territories of Spain? I thoughrirnecessary, by proclamatiOn, as well as by special orders, to take measures for pre venting and suppressing this enterprize, for seizing the vessels, arrns, and other means provided for it, and for arresting and bringing to Justice .its authors and abettors. It was due to that good faith 'which ought ever to he the rule of aelion in public, as well as - itrPrivate transaCtions ; it was due to good order, and 'regular Government, that, while the public force was aeling stri&ly on the defensive, and mere }y to protect our citizens from aggression, the criminal attempts of private individuals to decide, for their own Country, the question of Peace or War, by commencing a6tive and unauthorised hostilities, should be promptly and efficaciously suppressed. " Whether it will be (necessary to enlarge our regular force will depend on the result of our Nego tiations with Spain. But as it is uncertain when that result will be known, the provisional measures re quisite for that, and to meet any pressure intervening in that quarter, will be a subject for your early con sideration. The possession of both banks of the Mssissippi reducing to a single point the defence of that river, its waters, and the country, adjacent,. it becomes highly necessary to provide, for Wat point, , a More Same security. me position above its Mouth, commanding the passage of the river, should be ren dered sufficiently Strong to cover the armed vessels which !nay be stationed there for defence ; and; in conjunaion - with them, to p r es e n t an insuperable obstacle to any force attempting 'to pass. The ap proaches-to the city of New-Orleans, from the east ern quarter, also - willi-equire to be examined, and More effeanallY guarded. For .the internal support of the Country, the encouragement of a strong Settlement on the western side of the Mississippi, within reach of New-Orleans, will be worthy the consideration of the Legislature. f: `f7, 1 11 ) 1' :In or Ole ff.:lllc tyun-boat; ~anti- ; (4l*. d , y Ac of tits lasOessinn, are, so adV:piwed, that be : rp,-; . • for service in the ensainif skririg: ,Circur,nsta.ncev pet:mitred us to allow the lime necessary„tbr..tneg more solid Construction. As a much. lar b er..purnher. will still be wanting. to place our sea-port towns,,,ap4, waters in that state detenceto,whicu we are com l . petent; and they entitled, a situilar,appropriation for a further provision of them is recommended for the .ensuing Year. „ .. . - • ... . . • • " A furthei• appropriation . will also be. necessary. for 'repairing fortifications already estabiihed; and for the ereelion of such other works as may hava real. effete`} hakohsttuCtibg the approach of an eperny to our sea-port towns,: or their remaining before. .„. . . . " In a COuntry whose Constittftion is derived from the will of the People, direCtly expressed by their free suffrages, where the principal Executive FunEtionaries, and .those of the Legislature, are re newed by them at short periods—where, under the charader of Jurors ) theyexercise in person ,the greatest portion of the judiciary powers-,-where the Laws are conseqUently so formed and administered as to bear,. with equal weight and favouron all, restraini ng no , man in the pursuits of honest industry,, and securing to every one the preperty which that acquires --it would not be supposed that any safeguards could be needed against insurrection or enterprize on the pub lic peace or authority. The Laws, however, aware,. that these should not be trusted to moral restraints only, have wisely provided puniqnnents for these crimes when committed. But would it not be salu tary to give also the means of preventing their com mission ? Where an enterprize' is meditated by private individuals, against a foreign nation, in amity with the United States, powers of prevention, to a certain extent, are given by the lows. Would they* not be as reasonable and useful where the enterprize preparing is against the United States ?---Whire ad verting.to this branch of the law, it is proper to ob set*, that in enterprizes meditated against foreign nations, the ordinary process of binding to the ob servance of the peace and good behaviour, could it be extended to acts to be done out of the jurisdic tion of the United States, would be effeCtual in some cases where the.offender is able to' keep out of sight every indication of his purpose which could draw on him the exercise of the powers now given bylaw. " The States on the coast , of Barbary seem gene rally disposed at present to respect our peace.and friendship. With Tunis alone, :some uncertainty remains, Persuaded that it is our interest to .main tain our peace with them on equal terms, or not at all, 'I propose to send in due tune, a reinforcement into the Mediterranean ; unless previous information. shall shew it to be unnecessary. " We continue to receive proofs of the growing attachment of our Indian neighbours, and of their disposition to place all their interests under the pa- - trollop of the United States. These dispositions are inspired by their confidence in our justice,, and in the sincere concern we feel for their welfare. And as long as we discharge these high and honour able functions with the integrity and good faith. which alone can entitle us to their continuance, we.. may expect to reap th e j us t rewar d i n t h e i r peace and • - friendship : : • " The Expedition of Messrs. Lewis and Clarke, for exploring the river Missouri, •and • the best com munication from that to the Pacific Ocean, has had all the success which could have been:expeCted. They _have traced the Missouri nearly toits source, descended the Columbia to the Pacific Ocean, ascer tained with accuracy the geography of that interest ing communication across our Continent, learnt the character of. he country, of its commerce, and inhav bitants ; and it is but ' justice to say ,that MesSrs. Lewis and Clarke, and their brave companions, have, by this arduous service, deserved well of their Coun try. " The attempt to explore the Red River,' limier the direction of Mr. Freeman,..thoUgh conduced with a zeal and prudence meriting entire approbafioh, has not been equally successtul. Ater proceeding up it about six hundred .miles, nearly as far as the French Settlements had extended, 'while the coun try was in their possession, our geographers' were obliged to return without completing their wwk. " Very useful additions have also been made to our knoWledge of the Mississippi, by Lieutenant Pike,. who has ascended. it to its source, 'and whose journal and map, giving the details of his journey, will shortly he ready forsommtmication to boa; Houses of Congress. ThOse, of Messrs, Lewis . , Clarke, and Freeman, will require further time to be digested and, prepared. These important shrveys, in addition to thoSe before possessed, f urn i s h mate rials for commencing an accurate map at' the Missis sippi and its western waters. Some principal rivers however remain still, to be explored, towards which the authorisation of COngress by moderate appro priations will be requisite. " I congratulate you,: Fellow Citizens, on the ap proach of the period at which :you may interpose your authority, const i tut ionally„to ,withdraw the Ci tizens of the United States from all further partici pation in those violations of human rights which have been so long continued on the unotfending in habitants of Africa, and which the morality, the re putation, and the best interests of our Cuuntry, have long been eager to prescribe. Although no law you • may pass can take prohibitory effe& till the first day of the year one thousand eight hundr:d and eight, yet the intervening period is not too long to prevent, by timely notice, expeditions which cannot be com pleted before that day. ." The receipts . at .the Treasury, during the year ending on the 30th day of September last, have amounted to near fifteen millions of dollars, which have enabled.us, after meeting the current demands, to pay two millions seven hundred thousand dollars of the American claims, in paft of the price of Loui siana; to pay, of the funded debt, upwards of three millions of principal, and nearly four of interest, anti.; in addition, to reimburse .in the course- of the present] month near two millions of five and a Ilia per cent. stock. These' payments and reimburse ments of Ale - funded • debt,. with those which had been, made in the four years and a half pre , leding, will, at the close of the present year, ha►e extin. guished upwards of twenty-three millions of p"rin cipal___ _ _ " The duties composing the Mediterranean fund will cease, bylaw, at the end of the present Be.,sion. • ,Cons'i'dering, hoWever; that they zire levied chiefly on luxuries, and that we havesan impost, on salt, a , necessary of life, the free use of which otherwise is so important, I recommend to your consideration the