The Sun. — London, England, 1802-06-26 00:00:00

~~. IMPERI/IL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS, FRIDAY, JUNE 25. THE LORD cH4NCELLOR being detained by important business, did not come down to the klouse so early as was expeCted ; and soot:, after, the Orders for giving Judgment on the .Causes which stood for this day, were postp.med till to. morrow. The various Bills before the House were for.. warded in their respediv - e stages. Th, - .se were mostly third readings. Th.. ATTORNEY GENERAL, attended by several Members, returned the Aliens' Regulation Bill from the Commons, who had agreed to the Amendments made by their Lordships. The GicAcnns Canal Bill was returned by Mr. ALEXANDER. Some routine and private business was disposed of, and ore or two of the Orders postponed, after %via* their Lordships adjourned till to-morrow, when the Royal Ascent will be given to a number of Bills, by whit is called a Sweeping Commission, and which generally takes place on the eve of a Prorogation. HOUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY, J.UNE 25. AN Account of the net produce of the Excise Duties for three years ending the sth of January 18oz, was presented, and ordered to lie on the Table. The Lords' Amendmenrs on the Alien Bill were taken into consideration, read, and agreed to. M. N. VANSITTART presznted an Account of Arrears an B!ances in the hands of Officers of the Revenue—which was .ordered to lie on the Table. A Message from the Lords informed the House that their Lordships had agreed to the 5,000,0001. Exchequer Bills Bill, :he Customs Duty Bill, the Post Hone Duty Bill, the Irish Militia Discharge Bill, the Excise Bill, and the Paper Duty . Bill, with out any Amendment. FINANCE. Mr. TIER-VEY moved the Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate on the Resolu tions of Finance. He thought it unnecessary to trouble the House upon the subjea ; the Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHANCELLOR of the Ev- CHEQUER) would either negative his (Mr. TIER NEY'S) ReAAntions, or move the previous question, as he thought fit : he (Mr. TIERNEY) was only anxious that his Resolutions should go down to posterity. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he should submit but a very few observations, to the House upon . this subject, as there was no material difference between his Resolutions and 'those of the Hon. Gentleman. He thought the Hon. Gentleman had understated the amount of the Debt charged upon Great Britain. in conse qu,'nce of subtracting the sum on account of Ireland, which ought not to have been &eluded. With resped to the mode in which the Hon. Gentleman had estimated the value of. the Long and Short Annuities, his objeaion was, that the value of those Annuities ought not to be calculated with a view of increasing the mass of the Public Debt, but that the annual amount of those Annuities ought only to he considered as a charge on t:ie Al to the amount of the Sinking Fund, as s o: t ed'in the Hon. Gentleman's Resolutions, he was c - ;F opinion that the Hon. Gentleman should have added io that amount the accruing dividends on the Stock purchased by the Commissioners for the re duCtion of the National Debt within the year, which woold.make it 5, Soo,oool. With resped to the Inter est and Charges of Management on the Public Debt, he thought that the Hon. Gentleman should have added the sum of 48,0001. being the Interest on the Deferred Stock, instead of exclui;...; it. To the produce. of the Permanent Taxes Ale Hon. Gentle man would no doubt think it perfedly fair to add the amount of the Corn Bounties, which had been paid out of the produce of the Customs. It was impossible for the House not to view, with the utmost satisfadion, the produce of the Perm. neat Taxes during the present year, which was equal to the produce of that favourite year 1799. There were 1 - . few other points in which his Reso lutions differed irom those of the Hon. Gentleman, but upon the whole the difference was very incon- Slderable. He did not think he could consistently negative the Hon. Gentleman's Resolutions ; he should therefore content himself with moving on each the previon: question. Mr.TIERNEY shortly explained; he contended that the Annuities ought to be valued, in stating the amount of the debt. Mr. N. V AA'SrrIART made some observations in support of what had been advanced by the CHAN-. cELLoa of the EXCHEQUER, and contended, that in stating the amount of the Public Debt, the Long and Short Annuities ought not to be valued with a view of increasing that amount. Mr. I tERNEY again explained. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the difference in statement was so minute, that he did not think it worth while to trouble the House with any further observations upon the sub jea. The great difference, however, was, that the I-lon. Gentleman's Resolutions were framed for the purpose of giving a view of our situation, which that situation by no means warranted, His (the CHANCELLOR of the EXCFIEQUER's) objetft was, to give an exact and accurate statement of our a&ual situation, If he complained of any thing in the Hon. Gentleman's Resolutions, it was rather of what the Hon.. Gentleman had omitted, than of what he had inserted. He had endeavoured to supply the deficiencies in the Hon. Gentleman's Re, solutions, and to exhibit a fairer view of our situa tion than could be colleCted from the defeetive statement of the Bon. Gentleman, He then went through the Resolutions which he presented to the House . on Tuesday last, (Vide THE Stnsr of the 1 43. d lust,), in the course of which he observed, that no quarter had been So produrtive as the quarter from the s , '.l ufj4y.i4ry to the sth of April I So; from which lie tlati a ri4hi to loolc forwar4 to the saute produce in. future. Having gone through the Reso lutions, he would ask, he said, whether it was possible to entertain any apprehensOen as to our resources, and the means which the Country pos sessed, to enable it to bear its burdens and to sup port its dignity and its consequence ? He looked with confidence and satisfadion at the means which the Country possessed of providing amply for public credit and public safety.—He could state this with confidence to the House and to the Country ; and if there should arise a necessity of recurring to new burdens, the Country was not so exhausted but that it was able to provide without difficulty for those burdens. He looked forward, however, without anticipating any such additional burdens, but if they did arise, a large surplus of revenue was to be expeded„ and the Hon. Gentle man must allow that the actual produce of the Re venue had rather accorded with his (the CHAN CELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER'S) explanation, than that of the Hon. Gentleman. Perhaps himself and the Hon. Gentleman each looked forward with confidence, but with different degrees of it. When he considered, however, the great resources of the Country, that great progress had been made in the eeduetion of the Public Debt, and that the means of discharging that Debt, which vas in 1786 as z to z3B, were now as r to 84., it wasimpossible for him not to contemplate the 'situation of the Coun. try with the utmost satisfadion. Upon these grounds he proposed his Resolutions. Mr. TIERNEY said, the difference between him and the Right Hon. Gentleman, on many points, was none at all ; and on other points extremely lit tle; and, indeed, there could not be any material difference, since they both went upon the same fads. The only thing which constituted the difference was, that he proceeded on matter of fad only, with out pressing any thing that appeared like argument ; whereas, some of the Resolutions of the Right Hon. Gentleman took in a speculation of what was to be expelled hereafter, and it was upon that expeetation that the: difference arose between him and the Right Hon. Gentleman. That the. Revenue of this Country was flourishing, was beyond dispute, but the Right lion. Gentleman went back to the years 1783 and 1781., to take a view of the then Peace Establishment ; this appeared to him to be an unsatisfadory manner of eomptiting it, inasmuch as then, we had been at peAce for a considerable time, and the calculation was brought forward to the year 1787, which .was a period further ad vanced in peace titan we were at present. The chief difference between him and the Right Hon. Gentleman was upon what was to be the Peace Establishment, and he could not assent to the ex-' petitions exF.ressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman upon that subjed. After expatiating upon this and other topics for some time, he observed that his objed in bringing forward this Discussion was not to create any despondency in the Public mind —he felt none himself—but he thought it very interesting to the - Public, that the subje& should he fully discussed, he had therefore made his statement with that view ; he left his Resolutions on the Table that they may be judged of and compared with those brought forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was perfeflly satisfied it was not from any in tention to create despondency in the Public Mind the Hon. Gentleman had brought forward his Re- solutions; lie gave him full credit for the purity of his motives :—the great subject of difference be t Ween him and the Hon. Gentleman was not from any material inaccuracy in the statement of the Hon. Gentleman, but that his resolutions did not contain all that was material, and such as they should contain, to give the Public such a view of the Financial State of this 'Country as the subjea required before a correct opinion could be formed upon it. Many of the points on which there was a difference, he should pass over, because they were really so trifling as to be unworthy of notice. The item which he frequently repeated, of 700,0301. as referable to the Peace Establishment, the House would be aware, that on this he must speak a good deal upon conjecture. With reference to the cony parison he had made of nine years of Peace, and nine years of War, and the application he made of it to the probable amount of our Revenue, he could only repeat, that, on this subjed, he had formed a very sanguine expedation, in which he had now great confidence . ; and he adverted to the Provisions which had hecn made for meeting our increased expences. —He alluded also to certain topics which had been passed over by the Honourable Gentleman, such for instance, as the discharge of the claims on the Emperor of Germany, a subject which was by no . means to be abandoned or given up. He alluded to the probable increase of our territorial revenue in India, likewise to the large saving which might soon be made to the Public in the per Cents. topics on which he had formerly dwelt, and which he now only touched upon ; from all which, he said it appeared to him, this Country might look flr ward with just hopes of augmenting considerably its revenue, even upon principles which had been maintained by the Hon. Gentleman himself. He took notice also of our probable Naval Establish, tent, the number of which he had stated formerly at 30,000 men—.He did not say that such a number would be necessary, but his object was in this, and every other view he took of this subject, not to under-rate our probable expenditure. From all these topics, taken collectively, he was sanguine enough to hope that our Revenue would be greatly aug mented, even beyond any statement he had made, and that our Expenditure would be less. It would not, however, be matter of reproach to him if, in the event, some points might appear different from the view be had of them. He then took a view of the. general observations which had been frequently made, that as much of our prosperity was owing to the war, we might expect it to be diminish ed when peace arrived ; that was not the view which he. entertained of that subject. It was true that during the war, our means of prosperity had been increased, but it did not thence follow that in time of peace we should lose ;he use of these means. He was of opinion most decidedly, that our trade and commerce would not diminish, but on the contrary, would- increase from the Peace. He then took notice of the calculations he had made with reference to the year 1787, and observed they were taken frQiu that period, rather than forther periods, because greater care had been taken in arranging these subjefts then, a!ll a few years previously, than had formerly I,een taken of the Financial Arrangements of this Country.; and indeed greater and more effeaual provisions were made for all the ex pences of this Country, with a view of War and Peace by his Right Flon. Predecessor, than had distinguished the affairs of this Country on any former occasion. Mr. 'FIERNEY said a few words in explanation. Mr. V ANS ITT ART took up that part of the subjett which related to the probable progress of our revenue and the increase of our trade. It had been said, that the operation of the War had been to exclude rival Nations, by our having the com mand of the Sea, from meeting us upon an equal footing : that this gave us great advantages, and that Peace would deprive us of these advantages. These were two points which he denied. He denied that we had greater trade by the War, except in one view, that of our conquests in the West indies ; that in other respects •we had lost much valuable trade by the War, and which trade we should now regain. Now it might be said that our manufaCtures flourished and our trade increased during the War, which was true ; but they did not so increase and flourish in conseqUence of the War, or by the War, but they did so notwithstanding, and in opposition to the War. The War, as far as it operated on these points, instead of increasing our trade and commerce in itself, and independent of our cod- . quests i 7 the West Indies, had an opposite ten dency, and indeed must have it, by diverting a. multiplicity of hands from productive labour ; this must necessarily diminish, and that more than could direCtly be calculated, the real resources of a coun try ; and Peace had an opposite tendency, by .in creasing the productive powers of a country, and bringing with it advantages on the other hand which could not at once be calculated, and that more especially in such a Commercial Country as this. This consideration led him to consider, that with the general prosperity of the Country which Peace would bring about, the revenue must necessarily flourish. For the revenue must flourish if the ar ticles of consumption which bore a high duty were disposed of at home and abroad in larger quantities than formerly. This would be the case in most of the leading articles of taxation, a few of which he would enumerate, for instance, wine, tea, and sugar. The consumption of all these articles had greatly increased already since the Peace. Here he entered upon an accurate statement of the. con sumption of these articles, comparing the late with former periods, and both with the present, by.which his proposition was abundantly supported. He then proceeded to expatiate most ably on another int, portant branch of this question, namely, the opc_ ration which Peace must necessarily make on the immense capital which would be now employ ed more advantageously, and indeed more of it than could be employed in time of War. In the first place, upwards of zo millions annually would be employed now in trade, which during War was ne cessarily employed in Loans. The advantages of which alone to trade would be prodigious, when it came to be all active- in its operations on the pro_ duai ve powers of the Country. This Ngan to be al ready felt even in the public proceedings of that House, in the vast enlargement which had. already taken place in every branch of business, as Mr. SPEAKEE could pretty well testify from the labo rious attention it exacted from him. To illustrate this proposition Mr. VANSITTART entered into a comparative enumeration of the number of Road, Canal, Inclosure, and other Bills, beginning in the year r 78z, and taking stated intervals down to the present period ; upon which it again appeared that our trade and all species of resources were very rapidly increasing. He then proceeded to give some account of all the vessels that passed the Sound in the course of the War, to shew also how much tonnage of British Shipping and how much Foreign had been employed in our Trade, Sec. from which he again deduced that our Trade did not :ncrease by the war, but that, on . a comparative Estimate with that of the increase of the Trade of America, and the Northern Powers of Europe, which - had not been engaged in the war, comparing what they were at the begining of the war, what they are now, and what we were then, and what we were at the end of the war ; and then he said that the war did not appear to have been the cause of our increase of Trade in the tonnage of Shipping —But that since the peace our Shipping had already greatly increased.—From all these statements he concluded that our increase of Trade during - the war, was not created by the war, but in despite of the war.—That since the peace, all the points on which the prosperity of a Nation depended, had already . increased, and were now increasing ; that therefore the conclusion was fallacious, by which is was said, peace would contract our Commerce. Sir F. BARING adverted to the present state of the Commerce of this Country, and observed, it was very great at present, but expressed a conviction, that it could not continue. He looked to a consi. derable change in this respeCt, in the state of this Country ; it was not, indeed, a change from which he had any alarming apprehensions as to the general welfare of this Country, but it was fit for the Pub„ lie to be prepared to receive it. There were Mil lions to be struck out of the calculations, which some Gentlemen had stated—There were some Ar ticles charged with a Duty in time of War, which in time of Peace they would not bear ; and all the di minution thus created, must be considered as a de falcation in the Revenue. There were many regula tions wanting upon various heads of Trade, and great encouragement should be given to trade by various regulations, otherwise we could not expect that any of it would continue with us. He took the article of tea by way of illustration, upon which he expatiated at some lenysth, to shew what atten. tion was due to the subjed, and also to support the proposition with which he commenced 'his speech, namely, that the trade of this Country cannot continue what it is at present. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, after an apology for speaking so often as he had oc casion to do this evening, expressed his disappoint ment at the opinion he had heard from the Honourable Baronet and notwithstanding his au tholity, which was confessedly and deservedly very high, he must be.pardoned from assenting to it. 1--k had said that a part of our Trade must ne cessarily decline in time of Peace : he knew of no part of the Trade and Commerce of this. Country that must do so, except those parts of the West Indies which we had gained by conquest during the War, and which we had restored by the Treaty of Peace. He doubted whether the sagacity of the Honourable Member himself could discover any other part' of our .Trade that Was likely to diminish. That was a part which was certainly material to the Revenue of this Country, but he ap prehended that this would be greatly overbalanced by the advantages alluded to by his Hon. Friend (Mr. VANSITTART) of the productive powers of the Country being so much increased as they must by Peace, and by which he apprehended that our Commerce would be spread still wider over, the World. than it ever had yet been. With regard to the particular branch of Trade to which the Hon. Ba ronet had alluded, he could not help recolleEting the provisions which were made in the year 1784, and any intentions to turn any part of our Trade to our disadvantage by illicit traffic, or the like, might be . counteraded in ten days perhaps, by a Legislative provision. Sir F. BARING said a few words in explanation. He said, he did not look so much.to the defalcation of the Revenue from the diminution of trade, as the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to imagine. A great part of the. trade to which he alluded as likely to be greatly diminished, was one which until lately did not prOduce any thing to the Revenue at all ; be meant the Transit Trade. There were some millions in value now in this trade, which we could not maintain in the year 1803. We would not be able to keep it up. Foreign Countries would not be able to keep it up with us as they did during the War—they could not afford it. Our Ships were not, now worth halfthe money they Were r 2 MOnths-ago. The different Powers" of Europe were too much ex hausted by the exertions they were obliged to .make in the War, to be. able to trade with us, as they had formerly done. He did not mention this as an in.- • stance of adversity to this Country at large, but merely as to the probable future quantum Of Trade. The first Otiestion was then read, on the Resolu tion of Mr. TIERNEY, and the previous Question put upon it and carried. All the rest of Mr. TIER NEY'S Resolutions were then disposed of by t h e pre vious question—and then each of the Resolutions of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER were put and carried. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER diet" moved several Addresses to His MAJESTY, which were agreed to, and of which the following is the substance : Praying, That His Majesty will be graciously pleased to confer some dignity in the Church, on the Rev. John Barton, Chaplain of the House. That His Majesty will be pleased to order that 12001. be advanced to Henry Alexdnder, Esq. for his services in the present Session as Chairman of the Committees of the House. That His Majesty may be pleased to order that there be advanced to Jeremiah Dyson, Esq. for his services in the present Session, as one of the Clerks Assistant in the House, such a sum as together with the Fees and Emoluments of his Office, s►;all amount to 15001. That His Majesty will be graciousl' pleased to order such a sum of money as His Majesty sha.ll think proper, to be advanced to John Ley, Esti' Second Clerk Assistant. of the House, for his ser vices in the present Session. That His Majesty will he graciously pleased to direa, that such a sum of money he advanced to John Clementson, Esq. Deputy Serjeant at Arms, attending the House, as shall, with the Emoluments of his Office, amount to gool. for his services in the present Session, and to assure His Majesty the House will make good the above votes, &c. The usual votes then passed for printing the Journals, Votes, &C. 3001. were also voted to Mr. DUNN, for making an Index to the Journals, &c. 3201. to another Gentleman for business of the same description with.regard to the Votes. Another Address, that His Majesty will be pleased to order such a sum as he shall think proper for the. Clerk of the Public Committees of the House. . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, after all elegant compliment to the illustrious . Personage who had caused the valuable remains of ancient Records of Herculaneum and Pompeia to he s aved . from . destrution, and expatiating on their utility to us in particular and to the world at large, moved an Address to His IVIAt EsTY, praying that he mai be graciously pleased to order that 17001. be ad vanced tOWILLIAM DRUMMOND, Minister at the Court of His Scica,tAN MAJESTY, for defraying the expence of copying ancient Manuscripts, dis covered at Herculaneum and Pompeia.—Which was agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was extremely concerned in not having had it in his power so' on to call the attention et. the Houk to a subjeft which he was about to men tion, and which was of great importance. The House would recollect, that when the question had been discussed this Session on the subject of the Civil List, he expressed an intention of s ubmitting, to the House a measure to prevent the recurrence et another such application to Parliament. He con-, ceived that he was pledged, and the House wou ld pardon him, if he said the House was also in some degree pledged to the adoption of a measure upeti this subject. He was extremely concerned tha t such a multitude of business which, the Meuse would be aware, he had been engaged in, had ten dered it impossible for him to bring this subject tor ward this Session. He wished a minute examina tion to take place in the accounts, and then som e arrangements to be made upon the matter. But th is called for a degree of attention which his other and numerous avocations would not permit him.te. . bestow upon it. He wished now to have it under stood, that the intention he had stated some tim e ago upon this subjed was not abandoned, and that he should lay before the House early in the nex t Session . of Parliament, a proposition upon it, or that if it was not brought forward by him, it would b ° brought by some other person in His Maje st y Goyernment,