The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-16 00:00:00

to 1143 been so misconceived was not the object of Lords . un'his- side orthe question : their` wish - waS only, that the - Rouse should pause until Minister's would' condescend:to tread in the steps of their ancestors upon similar occasions, and 'conform to the establish ed practice of Parliament. In every former instance th ey requira information, and adequate explanation - as t o the reasons and cause's, always atcompanied' the requisition.' As . things stood, they were abandon ed entirely - to conjecture ; and they might be strongly inclined to think that some material change had• taken place, when they recolleded what- was passed about the close of last Session as an ,adequateEstablishment, and compared it with what was demanded at present. The Noble Earl then adverted to the recent occurrences on the Con tinent, the acquisitions to the territories of France, and`the affairs of Switzerland, respeding which Mi nisters left the House in complete ignorance. He repelled the idea, that the object of the,preaent con du et - -of the Lords who acted with him was a Fhange of Ministers ; neither was it a. part of their `stew s to urge them to aVar : such insinuations were unfounded ; their real objeEts were the honour and s ecurity o f t h e C ountry .. I n t h e present_ instance he insisted it would'be right - to afrird time to Mini_ sters. to follow the example of their ancestors upon s imilar occasions. ,The Earl of D ARNLEY delivered. his senti, i l :Lits upon the various "to 'in discussion at some ii -- , 1 %-t l =--rre seemed inclined on the whole to approve Iconduct of Ministers, bUte2cpreised his appre nlslens in strong language, at the great and in reasing Power of France, which, conjoined w ith Russia, he was of opinion, could give Laws 1 , 10 the w h ole world, Great Britain excepted heldwould su pp o r t Mi n i sters as l ong as t h ey up.. neld the National Honour and provided for its ' s ecurity,ecurity. Authe smile time; he could not_ hold his tribute of applause to the charader of the great Minister so often alluded to of late. His abi lities, integrity, and above all his - firmness, spirit, and courage, were beyond any thing he could ex press. He then recurred .to the situation of France, and the charader of the person at the head of its Government, whose ambition he considered as far from being satiated. One great object of his am bition, helaelieved to be, tee subjugation of this counir. He longed to break open the,. 'doors of 'the Bank of England with his ,legion and to plan t t h e R epu b lican Standard on the' Tower Of London_ He would freely speak his sentiments, indepe n d ent of Ministerial considerations—he deemed large Establishments requisite in the pre.. s e"' -state' of the country, and as such, ,approved of the ;Bill before the House. Lord HOBART commenced a very able . and spirited answer to the Nnble Lords on the other side of the question, liy'affi r i n i ng , that the Honour of . /he Country had, not been - sullied by' the ‘ conduEt of Flis Majesty's present-Ministers—Not one of them would continue in Office, were they necessitated to submit to any as which tended to sully the Nation al Honour. With respect to the immediate subjea in discussion, he .must expre;s his surprize at the persevera nce candid an d satisfaE of Lords in Opposition, .after the very explanation given by his NOble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, in rite last debate. He c o n ten d e d t h a t t h e causes tor t h e E sta _ blishments thus called tor were of sufficient public notoriety fa r Parliame n t to proceed upon. Nor wa& that all, he could 'as effeaually contend, th at tile measures now under discussion were duly and adequately 'adverted to in the Speech from the Throne. In illustration of which position, his Lord ship read several striking extrads—and it was to enable His Majesty to give eficed, in case of necessity, to the language so delivered, that th e augmentations in question were deemed necessa ry, and for which, he must insist, the Royal Com munication had laid an adequate foundation : the Ilarge of the Noble Lords, therefore,' that the whole proceeding was rested on the ground of Public llotoriety, was unfounded. Upon those principles it would be necessary that His Majesty's Speech should be accompanied by a geographical description e'f France, and its Territorial Acquisitions ; an d a also by Schedule of her Military Establish. Inents. When the Noble Lords admitted they did, not object to the extent of the Establish ments, I tPun what solid or substantial grounds then could Fr ance advance?— The Establishrhents existi ng: i n ' l rance, were matter for serious consideration in the discuslion of the subjea before them, and for the information of the House. His Lordship read s ome Extras from a recent Publication (we could not coiled the title), wherein the Land Forces, Sec, 1) 1 Fra nce, were :specified ; their power, by one statement therein, was estimated at 495,600 men, and h e argued, that this, joined to the other con siderations, advanced in the course of the Debate, were ample grounds for assenting to the Suipplies al ready voted by the House of Commons. His Lords.hip then slightly adverted to s'ome occurrences which took - I)l .ce abOut th e period o f t h e res i gnat i on o f t h e late Minist ers , and argued therefrom in favour of his ge neral conclusions. He was duly convinced of the 4elicate situations in which Ministers were often Placed, situation& which' sometimes rendered it as necessary to withhold Explanation, as it may be prope r to give it in others. After adverting' to 40 rne poin ts connected with the general subject of discussion, in some degree of detail, he drew in folerences therefro m , an d a dd uce d a ddi t i ona l argu entss in favour of the immediate • progress of the Lord CARYSFORT objeCted that there had not ucen 'sufficient-information laid before the House, to authorize them to vote for the Supply demanded, u n til mo re satisfatiory stateme n t s we r e made 'on hi part of His Majesty's Ministers. His - Lord- P discussed at some- length the ,topics' which have s een already repeatedly urged respecting the relative . I tuatio n o f t h e Country, and observed that he could t unt h e l p doubting how far His Majesty's Mini_ t t l" were intitled to confidence, w h en he consider_ " the d angers to which the Country had been ex_ Posed during their Ad m i n i strat i on. The Dnke of NORFOLK said, that when the si o l udua o f His Majesty' s Mi n i sters was a r ra igned 1 the manne r it h a d b een, h e could not h e l p advert td.gtd what had been their conduct}. They had taken the direEtion t,f Public Affairs at a time whe,n the -;tll°Lintry was placed in a cr i t i ca l s i tu a t i on , an d was g a ged in a dangerous contest. They made a Peace, which, if it_was not ex4etiy.phat was wished, he was certain, met with the - `concurrence and approbation- of nine tenths of the People of this Country—of all, short, who were not led away by motives of private, interest to, wish for a con tinuance of the War. Upon this ground His Ma jesty's Ministers should have his support, and he thought they were perreftly justified in withholding statements from that House, which under the pre sent circumstances it,Might not be proper to give. Lord GRENVILLE said, , that there never had been a greater perversion of the line of.argutnent adopted by his. Noble Friends, than the statement which had been unintentionally; no doubt, made by his Noble and Learned Friend (the LORD CHAN CELLOR). It was never the intention of himself, or of his Noble Friends, to oppose the Supplies, but it was merely a question as to time. , The op position was merely to the Order of the Day being now read, in the 'hope that some communication might, in the mean time, be made from His Ma. jesty, with resped to the motives upon which "they were called upon to vote the Supplies. His Ma jesty's Ministers had not thought proper to advise His Majesty to make any'specific communication as to the particular circumstances of the Country ; all the information they had upon the subject; was am biguous and unsatisfadory. He 'had taken some pains to search the Journals of the House for a cell tairy back, and.he had found it had been invariably the pritaice, with the exception, perhaps, of a few instances, which would make little in favour of His Majesty's Ministers, that some specific grounds had been stated to Parliament as to the particular line of condua which they were called upon to pur sue. After the Treaty of Lisbon, the Peace of Utrecht, the ,Treaty of Paris, and other events of a similar nature, some information was imparted, which served' as a clue to guide the Legislature with respet to the relative situation of the CoUntry. In the memorable Speech of GEORGE rite FIRST, im mediately after the accession of the House of Hano ver, it was stated, that the Peace' was insecure, and that it was necessary to cement Continental Alli ances. In the present case, however, all the in formation given was vague and unsatisladdry.— He did not wish hastily to oppose His.Majcsty's Ministers, but he could not help thinking that the return of the Right Honourable Gentleman to power, who had so, ably presided over the late Administration, was wanted, and that those who - opposed his return were-guilty of a deep injus tice towards their Country. Large Supplies were called Tor, but what was the difference in the situa tion of the Country ? The hostility of France to wards this Country was the same, whilst her power was increasing ; and that was the case, why should it have been stated, as it had been at one time since the Peace, that ,an Establishment of 30,000 Se a m en would be suffieieur, when at the present moment a - larger 'Estahlishatent was called for ? The Miii. tary and ,Naval Establishments i now called for, •were, it was stated, as great as the faculties of, the Country were enabled to provide for, but it should be recolleded that proposing these Establishments, was'like erecting a darn, vvilz!l was not to exceed a .certain - height, against a torrent ;TAW, u•..,; tnntinu4ly ; cint-anigta: be able to stern the stream to day, buyo-morrow the torrent would increase, and its impetuosity re ceive an additional force. We were called upon, it was stated, to execute the Treaty of Amiens, whilst France had ailed in defiance of it : surely, however, it was necessary to pause before we de, livered up the Cape and Cothin, which were the keys of the East Indies ; and Malta, which was the key of the Mediterranean. The Cape and Cochio had it seemed been already , surrendered. As to Malta, information was still wanted, whether it was retained as a matter of policy with respect to the general relations of this Country,' or whether only until certain stipulations, agreed upon in the Treaty of Amiens, were fulfilled ; Stipulations which, he contended, ought never to have been entered into. He could not 'con ceive, however, that Malta ought to be the subjea of a separate and distina question—it ought only to be comprised in the general question, respecting the relations ,between this Country And France. He had the highest respea for his Noble and Learned Friend (the LORD CHANCELLOR), but he was fully aware, that the numerous avocations of his Noble and Learned Friend, precluded him from attending very minutely to the Political Situation of the Coun try : he could only in this. way, account for the opinion delivered by his Noble and Learned Friend, Which he considered as very fatal to the Country, that we must have large Establishments, in order to be upOn our guard against the designs of ,France ; -and that we must trust to time for an ameliOration of our situation. He well knew, that much was to be allowed to events, but he could not help observing there was not much probability at present that the power'and predominance of France would decrease; and when it was stated that the Establishments now required were as great as the faculties of the Coun try could•bear, it was informing France of the ex tent of our resources, of which she might with faci lity take advantage. He wished it to be thoroughly . Understood,. that he had no - desire for War ; he only wished for a firm and . vigorous condua on the part of His Majesty's Ministers. The LORD CHANCELLOR explained. Lord PEEHA Al said, he should take up the time of the House for a very few minutes. As to what tae Noble Lord (Lord GRENVILLE) had advanced r! speeting Cochin, that Noble Lord might be in pcs session of some information upon the subjen, bit certainly His Majesty's Ministers had received ro intelligence of its surrender. He disclaimed the Opinion advanced by the Noble Lord, as that cf His Majesty's Ministers, ,that they intended to trust merely to time, as it was certainly their in tention to take advantage of every circumstance .upon the Continent, which could Contribute to the security of this Country. The Noble Lord had alluded to a supposed misrepresentation of the sentiments of the Noble Lord's Friends in the course of the night, as if it had been stated that they wished to refuse the Supplies ;, he confessed he could, not see much difference between stopping, and arresting the, Supplies. It had been obseryed by the Noble Lord, alluding to a Statement made in another place, that a much smaller Peace Esta blishment bad been originally naer.tioned, than that which was, now. called for;. but it would be recolleBed that the statement alluded 'to only im plied, that the number of Seamen wanted would not be less than io,coo,' not that they would not ex ceed.tbat number. The Noble Lord had expressed much friendship for His 'Majesty's IVliniSterS ; but certainly 'whatever-might te. 'the-expressions of the Noble Lord and his Friends, .the efFea of their opi nions went to the removal of those Ministers ; and if the Noble Lord:and his Friends really held those ojinions whiCh they'had advanced, it was certainly their constitutional Duty to endeavour, according to the - forins of Parliament, to procure, the removal of those Ministers:-.-a step which he should cer tainly take if the Noble, Lord and his Friends were in Office ; and he held (he same opinion. of .them which. they seemed to entertain of himself and his Noble'and Henourable Colleagues, With respell to the Call made by. the Noble Lord for the return of -a Wight Hon. Gentleman intooce, he should only say, that neither himself nor his colleagues opposed' any obstacle to that Return. He.did not exaCtly see the propriety of discussing the.,vafious. topics which had been mentioned that evening upon the, present question, as the Bill .before .the House was merely the first step of the-Supplies, and related. solely to the ordinary Service of the Country. He thought the discussion which .had been entertained, would have come with more propriety when other measures more extensive in their nature had come before the House. • Lord MINTO rose, and was entering•into some discussion respeding Switzerland, when he' was in tcrrlTted by • - • . , 3—rd THukLow, who spoke to Order, coneeiv ini sui : i.ft alluded to by the Noble• Lord to be irr:l'2vant to the business before the louse. tord,MINTo. said a few words more upon the same subjed, and concluded by declaring his in tention to bring forward a Motion after the Recess, for the purpose of obtaining the necessary informa tion respelling Switzerland. The Order of the. Day Was then read, and the Bill passed through a . Committee.. The other. Bills on the Table were forwarded in their respective stages.—Adjourned at half past eleven o'clock. ROUSE OF COMMONS. WEDNESDAY, DEC. 15. THE SPEAKER stated, that .Robert Hill, one of the capital Burgesses of Malmsbury, who had pre sented a Petition complaining of an undue Election for that Borough, had not entered into the recog nizance prescribed by Law. A MeStage was received .froni the Lords, stating that their Lordships had agreed to the Irish Mi litia Mr. CARRY moved for leave to bring in a Bill to reEtify a clerical error in the Ad of the 42d of His present Majesty, respeeting the Irish Militia. Leave was given to bring in the . Bill. The Mutiny. Bill was read a second time. The SECRETARY at WAR saitt - ,. it tvas'not hip intention to propose. tn, .pas 6 thiS Bill 'tin after the r ,-, cc i.a :y3 - tr , prcp.vie so e . altera tions which appeared to him to 'be necessary under * the present Establishment of the then begged leave to call the attention of the House to 4 mistake which appeared in an Ad of' last year, respeEting the' Militia. In the former Militia Ads it was thought proper to exempt licensed Dissenting Ministers from being ballotted for the Militia, but it was found that' many persons took advantage of this indulgence, and took out licences as Dissenting Ministers immediately, before, a general ballot, to save themselves from being drawn for the Militia. In order to prevent this .it was proposed last year . that no Dissenting 'Teacher should he exempted, unless he had been licensed at least a year. before the ballot.; but by some mistake it was inserted in the Ad, that no such person should be exempted who had been licensed within a year before the ballot ; the conse quence of this would he, that it would be. necessary for DiSsenting Ministers to take out a licence every year. He sherefore moved for leave to bling in a Bill to amend that part of the At of last year.— Leave 'given. The SECRETARY . at WAR gave notice, that he should, after the Recess, move for leave:to bring in a Bill for the Pay and Cloathing of the English Militia. It would be necessary to alter, the usual Bill in some particulars, such, as that the Militia should becalled out to be exercised for twenty-eight days, instead of twenty-one. He begged . leave, before he sat down,- to notice a circumstance which appeared to him to deserve the attention of that House, and of the Coun;ry. ..He understood, that a, Society had been formed, or was forming, the ob jed of which was to extend its influence over the whole Country, and to prevail upon People to stib sCribe their money, in order to secure themselves from being drawn for the Militia. It was true,. that plans of a similar nature, had been long ago adopted, bur they were confined to London and Mid dieser, or to particular Distrids, and, therefore, it was, perhaps, not' so injurious ; /but it was doubt ful whether the system was not at all times objec tionable. There however could be no doubt but that such a Society as the one to which he was now alluding would, if persisted in, call for the atten tion of this House. It was, the understood, called the " Western Society," and the plan was to take from poor 'people 14,i. or 15s. a year; in order _that substitutes might be found for them, if they were • drawn for the Militia. • it certainly was necessary to guard the Public against what might possibly be altogether a swindling transadion, because there was no security that when the Agents of this So. ciety got the 'honey,* they would afterwards per form their engagements :,they might run away, and poor people be thus defrauded of their money. But even if this Society should- perform, its engage ments, it would be departing from the system of the Militia LaWs, which was, if possible, to have" the Militia of each County formed of the inhabi tants of that county ; whereas this Society would be obliged ,tb provide substitutes from the refuse of the Metropolis.' He thought it necessary to throw out these observations, to,call the attention of the Houle to the subjeft, and lie hoped that no further I interference would be necessary. Mr. BußpoN presinteci. a PetitiOn,frorp South Shields, against the Tonnage A6t. The committee on the Corn Intercouise Bill was put off till to-morrow. • The Irish Militia Bill,was read a second time, was ordered to be committed on Friday. , Genirat G ASCOY NE wished to ask a question of Miniiters; which was of great importance to . Mercantile People, vii. whether it was intended to, renew the Bill which was near expiring, respeding, the Tride to Malta? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said; he was not apprized till ,a short time before he came into 'the House; that"tlie - Aa in queStion was so near expiring,,..and therefore he ,had not had an oppor,. tunity of examining into the subje6l, but he Would . give the Hon: Member an answer to:morrow. 11Tr. KINNAIRD rose to move for an Address to His" Majesty, 'praying that he would be pleased w order tile Patents constituting the Admiralty and' the Navy Board: - The ohjeet of his Motion was, to ascertain. Whether these Boards had the Power to coned 'the abuSes which were said to exist, or whether' it was necessary to pass an Aft of Parlia ment to give the'ro fresh Powers. That very con siderable abuses had existed, he, had no. doubt, and the Country was much indebted to them by whom those abuses were 'deteded and .suppressed. But when an application was made' for an AR of Parliament to grant additional Powers, it was necessary to ascertain whether the old Jurisdiefion was or was not competent to the suppression 'of these .abuses. - Upon this subject, there appeared to exist a considerable difference of opinion, An Honourable Admiral' stated in a former Debate, that the Board in question did pos sess sufficient powers, and that assertion was after wards contradiaed by a Gentleman in Office.-L• These two Gentle Men were at issue upon the sub jeCl, but it was of great importance to the House to have the fat ascertained, and, the only way that occurred to him of ascertaining it, was, to produce the documents for which he proposed to move. Whenever the Legislature, was called upon to inter fere upon any subjea, they ought not to proceed upon common report, or upon assertion, when better grounds could he had. It was not long ago since a notoriously large Peace Establishment was voted, upon Ouch the same kind of ground that a Parish Vestry would vote an additional Watch, or a Jus. tice of Peace would commit a thief, viz. that it was notoriously necessary. (There was a general cry , Of hear! hear!) He thought the Noble Lord at the Head of the Admiralty,' was entitled to the thanks of the Country for the reforms he had introduced, and if any' other Hercules should - arise and attempt to clean out other Augean Stables, he would give him his cordial support. He concluded with moving the AddreSS to His Majesty. The itITTORNEY GENERAL said, he did not know whether to oppose the Motion or not, .be. cause, if a Gentleman had a curiosity to see these Docunients,- it certainly was an innocent curiosity, - and there could ..be no harm in gratifying it. But he was not aware of any use that could be made of if they were, -produced. The Hon. Gentle_ `man had stated, that his reason for calling for these Parents, was to kilaiir whether the Admiralty and .the. Navy Board possessed sufficient powers to cor re&-existing Abuses, withoUt the intervention of an A.t`..l of Parliament ? .But even if, upon the in : spedion of the, Patents, it should appear that those, pOwers were given, yet, if from the different im portant; avocations of these Boards, they were un able to a6l upon them, still it was necessary to put the business into other hands. The -Navy Board, 'certainly, possessed the power to administer oaths, but that was not Sufficient ; they had not the means of calling upon Contraaors, &c. and to institute such inquiries as would be necessary to put. a stop tq those abuses, which it was admitted, on all hands, did exist. • Mr. KINNAIRD eXplaiDed. Mr. STURGES said, that if the Hon. Mem ber who made the Motion had read the Bill before the House, he would find that it granted powers, such as.he was sure were not in the patents which had been called for, and such•as he believed were never before granted to any Board. It authorised the Commissioners to send for and examine upon oath,' not only the person who had any transaetions' With him, but their heirs or representatives. This seemed to him to be granting most extraordinary powers, and such as could not be - produdive of any good effeel. • Captain MARKHAM said, that unless the powers were granted which were contained in that Bill, the objea which it was proposed to attain would be entirely frustrated. The abuses which had been deteEted were enormous : -he would state one small one, to give the House an idea of the rest. A perion in one of.the King's Yards had contraeled to furnish casks, which were to be filled with -earth and used as weights. The sum charged upon 'this account . was rz6ol. Upon inquiring into the busi ness, it was found that the sum that ought to have been charged was just 371. From this circumstance, the House would be able to form some estimate of the . extent of these abuses. The Board wished to examine into the former accounts of this person, ' but he said he had no books, and all inquiry was preluded. Mr. SHERIDAN observed, that the discussion had turned rather upon the Bill which was before the House, than upon the Motion, and an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. STURGES) had displayed great dexterity in making his observations upon the Bill, apply to the Motion for the Address. He confessed he did not see any thing good or bad in the Motion, but that, was no reason for agreeing to it. With re. gard to What had been said about the powers given by the Bill, he was of opinion that if they were not iven, the Bill itself might as well be given up, because such abuse's'as notoriously existed, cOuld, not, be-got at by ordinary means. Mr. H. 2DDINGTON rose to make a single observation. It had been stated, that such powers . had never before been given to any Board. This ' he was inclined to think was a mistake, for it would -appear by a reference to the Statutes, that similar powerS were given to the Commissioners for Au diting Public AcCounts, which was one of the most ' useful and important Boards in this Country. Mr. COU RT EN AY said, he could easily believe that those abuses did exist, because he knew iliac