The Sun. — London, England, 1807-02-13 00:00:00

different: frotn his. But as a• considerable error t simple sysiern, by raising the increased caeitalehr existed between them, however the Honse might 196,2 s s e oo4. in Weyearer but there woule be' a be dispOsed to think that the error was 'on bis great • iffi., ' yin the eatecution of it, such as it side, Yet he felt so strongly that it lay with the Noble was. - - uid next preceed .to the secerad hea4, - ..., Lord, that he could not forbear to state the view he anckcoprider; the reletivw . -;etete of the Debt and ehes had of the subjea. He was anxious Mieilters might Sinking Fund; for he admitted that though a greeter be in possession of it, that they might prove its fella- amount of Debt should be contrkeed, the effects cy if founded in error. Therefore he hoped that his of this might be counteracted by a proportionably motives' would receive an indulgent construClion large!' Sinking Fund. On looking at the present from the House, as this was a task which he would state of the Sinking Fund,. it appeared that though.. not have undertaken had it not been fear a strong ite- t 1 millions should be annually borrowed, yet in •-pression that there were good grounds of doubt as to 1826, the Debt would be reduced to about 270 mil thesoliditYoftheNobleLord'splan. Whilehesaidthfs, hoes, the decrease beine 93,356,0001. in' twenty he was anxious that the House should not supposethe years. Now, by the Noble l e erd,'s Plan, the state differencebetween theNobleLordandleim to begreater •of the Debt in 1826 would be 4ee,537,09e1. being than it really Was. He had no objee'tion to the mode of an increase beyond 90 millions and a half. Then as taking a general view of the subjeat : there was no to the Sinking Fund, on comparing the difference, principle, for instance, which he thought more clear, .it appeared, that, at the close of taventy years, the' than . th,at the rapid reduction of the debt by the Fund would be in the proportion' °fn.-tot!) to the Sinking Fund might be. dangereus to the interests ' Debt, on the present plan; anti on the new plan, of the country, and he: thought a maximum ought that it would -be in the proportion only of 1-17 the undoubtedlyebl be-established.. But he objected •to and there was; therefore, the whole of the chile tbe superstru&nre- which the Noble Lord had raised- rence in favour of th eo ld s y s t em . B ut t hi s was not by taking the. ordinary expenditure of the year' the only point s of difference, . for, after - the 20 years, without providing for" the extraordinary expences the Fund on the old system would still go on in- Which might be necessary in time of war, and .by creasing; whereas on the Noble Lord's plan it must mortgaging the. war taxes. He was glad that the, be declining: ,He must beg the Noble Lord's assist- Noble Lord took an extended view of the subjeele ance for edditional data on this point; but even up and he was only sorry that he had adopted a prin- on four of the Noble Lord's own tables; .he would iiiple inconsistent with thepropee plans w hi c h suc h undertake to shew him the principle 'of ruin which a view 'would suggest. - The Noble Lord had thought pteeAlled in his. plans, if he would only consent to proper to adopt a legislative 'measure for the next look at its effeats for ten years subsequent to the close, twenty years : but; on such a subjc6t as this, -he of the period of twenty years from the present thee,. contended that no legislative measure 'ought to be He would now proceed - tie the 3d head; `and con e , - adopted for such a • long period, because it would sider the comparative merits of the two systems in reduce Parliainent to the greatest - difficulties; and point of charge to the public, Now, if we should however beautiful the Noble Lord's plan might" ap- go on with the plan of Single Loans at one per cent, pear at present; he would find that it., would soon supposing 11,000,0001. to be borr owe d annually, the occasion very considerable . emb arrass M ents ' NO . - annual erge would be 733,0001. and on a capital thing was more impolitic than legislating for future of .220,000,0001,a the dose of the period we would years, during, which matey circumstances might oc-: have 14,660,0091. Then how did the clenge stand cur which could not at present be fereseen, He ad- on'tho Noble Lord's system ?, By Supplementary nutted that it was proper to look forward and to 'Loans he would .borrow 204,000,0001. for which reason on probable-data, and - to the reasoning itself he would provide 14,266,0001. The other branch lie had only to objet that it was founded on a data of his Loans would absorb the War Taxes. The so fallacious; that it would serve only 'to raise ex- charge-then by the old ' sySterri being 14,660,0001 e ye6iations -which would be disappointed. This and that for the Noble Lord Supplementary Loans wAuld . add material difficulties to the raising of the being 14,266,001. the difference between the whole . necessary. supplies when disappointed: hope would of the charge on the Old system' end that on ate be a grievance strongly . felt, when accompanied - , branch of the Noble Lord's', was only 394,0001.—_ with theadditional burthens•which must -be boine Ile would next proceed to the• 4th head, which by the people, The Noble Lord must-feel, that the was the comparative quality of the' two Systems to difficulty of raising necessary ,subsidies would be affbed relief to the country froth theapresent Ores materially inCreased, and subsidies must be raised sure ; and here he w as p er f e eil y prepare d to 'admit, unless we were to be " Britannos Coto or b e -di v i sos. " tliat if relief could be granted, whi c h would not 01- The Noble Lord, indeed, feirly and candidly stated, timately be:injurious to the country andto the stock that such extraordinary supplies must be provided , holders, it ought to be allowed to those who hachso for independent of his plan. But _certainly he might manfully borne hp against the accumulated pressure have taken an average of thesums that would be which- the state of the times rendered necessary.— required this ;Way, ..and considered what provision That was a point • which, if it could by any means was, to be made for them, as in all probability they be accomplished, ought certainly, to be aimed at. would be no less necessary than other •expences.— - This behtg his opinion, he was disposed -to meet Time War Expenditure at the time of the Union was the, Noble Lord on his se.vn ground, and to m ai nta i n thirty-two millions, , and •now ,it wasothirty-.eight the comparative-merit of the old system, in point of millions, independent of extraordinary expences.--e- administering relief to the people; or.at least in that Theprobability of increase ought eherefore to have of not adding materially -to the burtimens .which at been considered. But, however,' he would -argue present pressed .opon them. Now -he had Nhewed the point with the Noble Lord,-upon his own data that, if Parliament could persuade itself to take the and his omen faCts. His plan, if acted on in. the excesses ofehe Sinking Fund, these Might be made niede Which he proposed, was calculated to produce a part of the Ways end Means: . The excess would enibarrassment, if not ruin ; and he contended that , amount to upwards. of It millions. n 1816. He this embarrassment was gratuitous and unnecessary, , had stated the:. Loans might be made upon that, foe the . indulgence which 7 lie Proposed: to grant either_ upon the one system or the other. _Taking might be. given 'without any such ernbartassment. the excess of the Funds then, together with the an- That might be 'difficult to shew ; but he hoped that nuities, and time Noble 'Lord's taxes, you would lie would be allowed to state the view which he had • Piave considerably beyond thirteen millions as Ways of this subje&. . Aa to, the expediency of making and Means on the old system. On the new sys- any arrangements with resped to the Sinking Fund, ' tern you would have upwards of fourteen millions; he admitted that the excesses would so far answer Butupoe the old system it would only, upon the bis purpow, ; but lie begged-of the Noble Lord also - i whele, required difference of 369,0001. in taxes to to admit to him, that the excesses from 1.816 would carry you on, But the Noble Lord had War Loans afford `'Jays and Means' for any other system..—.t separate frotn. the Supplementary, •and these ab- Frani the written explanation that , he had see n , h e l - .sorbed the "War Takes so, that twenty-one millions f.hought, the Noble Lord's was one of theeworst. were thus mortgaged, in order to save 30,0001. of piaus . tbat could be adopted, and this was onefat- i taxes. He did certainly then °hied' to. the Noble Jacy.- Another fallacy was the assumption that the Lord's mode of carrying his plan of relief into exe \Var Taxes might be absorbed, without the greatest cation. It was proper to mitigate the pressure up ' peejudice to the Country. This system of absorb- 1 on the people if that could be done,' and therefore he log the . Wr Taxes was one, which, if a6ted upon, felt th a t i t was incumbent on himto stiggest woulchbeconsidere,d as borrowing money on its own some mode by which the. Noble. Lord might Loam. yet this was the way in which th e Noble be relieved e from ', 'his difficulty on that head, Lord proposed to provide for his War Loa ns 0 1 210 an d he hoped it would appear to the N o bl e Pillions. He would compare this system . of War Lord himself that he had p re f erre d th e . d ou bl e and Leans with the former Pl an o f Fi nan c e , for it was expensive plan to the' simple and econoreical - - Peepossible to doubt that, if the result was in favour Why then, taking-the Weys and Means which the of the former Plan, time Noble. Lord's Plan was fun- Noble Lord lied taken for ilia Plan, we bad Ways damen tally vicious. Why then, taking any given and Means to cover annual Loans of eleven millions sum and borrowing it on the system of Double fur-nineteen years on the old system; but then in Loans—the one funded,at 10 percent. and the Sup- order to make them available for present relief, he - Plementary at 6 per cent e hane for the Fund, and.the f admitted thatan operation was necessary. It was to other for the luterest, and comparing this with elle f be considered how they arose; for it was dear that Singlelean at 1 per ceee. as usual, he would -find they did not arise in a ratio with the Loans—they ,that • imethe_ foreeer case there would be 6o ,millions arose prinCipally in the, last ten years of the whole eaul a fraatoadded to the debt at the close of the pe r i o d, for • the excesses did not commence till period, .a.,4 - liirt he latter case only 30 millions and a 1816 . .--Now, taking the Noble Lord's Taxes and fraelion, the less being upwards of 29 millions, and Ammities, with 733,0001. to be ra ise d i n a ddi t i ona l . , hearty in proportion oft to.l, - In comparing the Taxes to 'cover 'the Loans, there would be about two systems on considerations of prudence, the only three millions for the first ten years without mort: •- eea y in which this could be done was upon five gaging the' War Taxes, from which he 'wished to tests---osteercietive to - the amount of borrowed capi- relieve the Noble Lord. But in order to make up to! in 20 -years-2dly, relative to the effeels of the Plan the half of the .Ways - and Means provided by the on time SinkineFund-3dly, their comparative qua- Noble Lord for 20 years, being upwards of 14 mil e lities to create cleirges to the Country.—ethly, what Ilona, there 'were still wanting 4,500,0001. to COITI were their comparative qualitiesdn admitting. a mi- plete the sum of 71 inillipns for the first ten years. tigation of, the present pre sure on the Nation—a n d, This 4!, millions he proposed sh ou ld he ra i se d b y ethly, how : they would leave the Finances of the additions to the Loans of each year, the interest and Conintry at the close 'of the period. As to the - first Sinking Fund, amounting in the gross to 330,000. head, the comparative quantity, of Capital to be bora j .to be charged on the' Consolidated Fund for the rowelin twenty yeara : as the Finance,Plan stood present, which . shoeld •be ultimately relieved by at present, by boriei•ving eleven millions,, making the excesses of the Sinking Fund when they accrued. in all 220 millions, for 20 years,, we would be. te a f By this Plan, sevinie the additional burthens on iieved from the War Loans' and Supplementary time People would ,not he very heave', the Noble Leans, By the Noble Lord's Plain, as taken from Lord would only have to borrow e 4e millions in -I:is oval table, it appeared, . that in twenty years he L stead of 204 millions, and he would be relieved from e it raise a capital . of. 210 Millions; by the War the necessity of mortgaging the War Taxes. But f,oans.ated.Supplcumentary Loans, on another credit, there was another way. It appeared by table ' N,' iehileg "together 4 16,200,0001. so th;lt, deducting that upon the old system the Sinking - Fund in the the Kauai increase of capital,: there would he an - course of four years would yield an excess of aciditlon 'of 19 . 6,209,0001 by the Noble Lord's Plan, 11,140,000. being 140,0001, beyond the amount of independent of 'B2 miiiiqns Evidat . ed by the . ten . the Loan. If we could, therefore, go on tilt 1811, percent. ' It' was no light matter time raising of so we could proceed without any addition to our debt, .. great a capital, for at the end of .14-y e ar s , the 'War I. and would eave el Milli Ons of War teees free..-- faxes' being ebscirbed, it would be necessary to raise 'Now for fOur years all that, would be necessary to 32 cnlliious annually, by way rat - ..Loans ; used this .. provide for the Loans would, over toad above the Would derange the circulating' medietn of the Court- Afinuities and Mixes proposed by, the Noll;; Lord, try, ho less than the to: extinction of the debt by lie only 646,00e1. 'These he offered to the Noble lit (S. Slakinelfunde sse rt i e e e s e icappeeree that tee Lore to relieve hini fr,im touching the War Taxes. e "I'hen was- nmore objectiteielsie than the present . The Noble Lord then preceeded to comment upon 41.4 . ,,clangers that ..vould result from mortgagin g th e 4 A - far-Taxes and the sir. at iicu I ties w h WOW d Occasion in providing for t, e Peace F,stablishinent„ need• not enter upon his fifth li,ead, in order to 'etamine the comparative merits of the sy4ems, With a view to the state• in vThiCh - They would leav i e the income of the country at the close of that pe nod. He had already shewn that on the old system' Would tie no mor t ga;e - Tir The The War Loans and Supplementary Loans were complete loans, and would swallow up every thing ; but if we abstained -from, these, we would come tq a-period when we could 'carry on the war fir any length of - !tme w4hout adding to our debt:. The Noble Lord then went into:a long statement. to proye, t hat the debt in the year 1826 would exceed the aggregate by six`mill ions, and' insisted that there was no possible pretence to justify the measure of mort— gaginc, the War Taxes. It might be justly questioned whether the `interest 'of . the stockholder could be. ad vaneed as a claim to fetter Parliament ; but - surely it was not to be denied that his interest, was. wholly to be disregirded. - He.put it to t1.4 - 6;kuthOu senSeof the House if the stock-b;oker would not prefer a Sinking Fund of' eleven or twelve 'milliOns, and a. Loan of twelve millions, to a Sinking Fund Of twenty= six million's, and a Loan of thirty-two millions-; and more especially when it was considered that that very Loan of thirty two miliions wOulif - create a capi tal of fifty Or sixty 'millions. He was free to say, that, however the Noble Lord Might mean, and he had 'no - doubt of the rectitude of his intentions, that still the plan of the NOble LOrdcarried,With it, a fallacy big with the worst consequences to the ulti mate presperity of the Finances of the Country. That Plan appeared to him to be masked.under the complicated machinery of the Noble Lord's system, :a system certainly in his mind more to be admired for its practical facility and dispatch in easin g the People, not! so much of - their •burthcns of their money, than for all the vaunting speculations of its theoretic economy ; but while he thus freely and explicitly stated his objections, let him not for a moment'be suspected as willing to withhold .his tribute, of respect to the manly, clear, decisive, and ingenious tone that in so great a degree characterized' the manner of the Noble Lord in submitting - to . that House that Plan of Finance, to which a strong . and imperious sense of public duty : had impeilled: him to:advance the objections he had, already sub*..,' mitted to the House; still more was - lie called upon', to applaud the ingenuousness of, the Noble Lord's attributing in his last year's•-statement all the bene fichil results to their true and only Source,-the genius,' the information, and the virtues Of the great and enlightened Statesman now no more, who 11;:ld'ideti tified his claims to immortality with the strength, the wealth, ancl:the glory of thiS Country,' UpOrr the last change of Administration he hind subject; ed"himself to severe and - repeated febilkes fronithe leading personages of that Administration, for hav ing said that, which ,in his mind, every day since'.. tended rather to confirm than disprove. He, should: now with increased confidence repeat wh a t had then exposed him. to such severe anitnadyersion, that ne ver was a country handed from one government -to another in a prouder situation than that in which this country had been in,, when transferred from the auspicious guidance of his Right Honourable Friend, to themanagement of the Gentlemen who were now responsible . for its prosperity. He apologised for the long, and no doubt tiresome, detail into which he felt himself Unavoidably obli B ed to enter, .and thanked the HOuse for the very patient attention with which it had been pleased to honour his huni- • . ble efforts to discharge a public duty' of great:and pa- I ramount consideration. , , tingencies, and yet the great princple of the No*. Lord's objedion was, that of future legislation. AS .to the Sinking Fund, he had stated that it was in the present period beneficial, and might be conti nued to be so .hereafter, by equalizing that Fund that is to be added to now in the same proportion that it was to be taken from hereafter, whereas the Noble Lord would take from it nose .. and add nl - ttiTig - to It'. hereafter, thus 'taking advantage of the beneficial &fed of the Fund, and leaving out, all cpusideration of the operating cause. L:pon 'the whole he should be most anxious to enter. into fuller statement of what be conceived to be the merits of the present Plan; and into a tiiore ample =refutation of the .ebjedions that had been urged . against it—it Was not then the . .opportunity to do so ; but he trusted. as the subject had already :been dferred from last Wednesday to next Mon day, that it was upon that day to' be br o u g ht under the discussion of the - House; when he - should then, as he had upon that evening, receive with cheerfulness .and gratitude every suggestion that the Noble Lord or his friends may- think calculated to remedy any supposed ettors; to supply any real defeds, or assist ;the operation of any of those, good qualities that he nattered himself were to be feund in the Plan he ;had the honour to bring forward. To others he left , the - false 'shame that shrunk from th e d e t e ctio n of, n , . . :igorance. It .should be his pride to receive with leetotning gratitude the smallest information 'upon 0 ,subject of such moment, nor when he shall have met With it, will he be inclined to think: bithself less un worthy for acceding to the superiority that gave it the submiAsion it necessarily exaeled. ' 1 1 / 7 -- :ROSE said, that he should be anxious to 000 his objeaions on' the Debate upon the Iteiolutions ! Thnse.'obedions were direfted not only against the :Noble Lord's Plan, which be conceived a most quest tionable one, but also Militated in sorne degree against the . prinCiples laid down so clearly and ably by 10 NobleKriend(LordCastiereagh) ; he should, however: for the present ,carefully a b sta i n from entering a! all into the nature of those objections,' hut said that he stibuld!be'adequately prepared upon a future dOl to go into them at length, and state, what he felt it. his duty to state, the reasons that led. him to • on dtide that there was a latent and ruinous fallacy in theSi-itetin,'of which he feared the Noble Lord was not et. all .aware. The first. Resolution was then' read from the Chair; and the Debate upon it, and the subsequent one, a - 39urned to Monday next. The other Orders of the Day were then postponed, and the House -adjourned. - MAILS. Aa rt:vto-1 Dublin, 3 Waterford. .Du4--:4 2 Waterford. GMtenburg , PRICE OF STOCKS THIS DAY At TWEL VE O'CLOCK. Consols - - THE SUN. SOLAM dlifS D;CEK - 14A:(1.7N! AUDE&T ? LONDON, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 13, .1807. WE have continued our ExtraEts from the Vrenc4 Papers. We have taken from 'the Monitezir SOMei very cwious ohervation3 upon the Speech of Jr. CANNING at the opening of the Session, ACCOUNTS have been received from Rio df 3 la His Lordship then concluded with . moving , the following Resolution, premising his wish .that the debate upon it should, for that night, 'be adjourned. " That it is propoSed by. the new Plan of Finarice, that the Annual , Excesses of the. preset• Sinking Fund, above the Interest of the Debt charged upon it,. in every' given Year, shoul4 bedeclarece to be at the disposal of Patliament, and applicable to the Public Service,—And . it appears that the aggregate Produce of the - said Excesses, between the Yeard 1816, and 1826, will,aineunt in the Whole to Eleven millions one hundred and twenty-one thousand nine hundred and thirty-eight Po.c.nds." . • Plata of a considerably later date than the Officl4. -Lord H. PETTY did not think it necessary, in the present instance, to troublethe House with more than a very few words. However he. might differ with many principles laid down by the Noble Lord, and however he might be disposed. to resist any at tempts to argue from assumptions in themselves ques tionable, he was yet willing to give his frank testimo• ny to the clear and perspicuous manner in which the Noble Lord had laid down those principles, and ar. , gued from those assumptions. It was to prevent any misconstruction abroad, or the Public from beingled into misconceptions as to the measure of Finance he should have the honour to propose, by certain statements of the Noble Lord,' so much more plan- Sible-than convincing. As the most concise method of answering those statements, he should refer at once to what had fallen from him on a fOrmer night upon that subjea. He had spoken of the policy oflooking prospe&ively to future contingencies; and though the. Noble Lord admits of the expediency of looking forward and calculating upon the Con jeaural casualties of future vicissitudes in the for- oration of a great financial scheme, yet the broad ground of the Noble Lord's obje&ions to his (Lord Henry - Petty's) Plan has been, the censurable prin ciple of legiSlating for the future. He wa s c h arged with a presumption he disclaimed ; h e did not pledge himself to provide for all changes that might hereafter occur—it was not within his feeble power, nor that of wiser men, to calculate upon, events that Were in the hands of Providence, and in - the hands of Providence alone. He'had already mentioned the two distill& heads upon which alone he could hazard any calculation as to a provision against changes—one was under the head of Foreign Subsidies, and the - , other under that of the Increase of the Price of 'La bour, and any increase in the expenditure under the article of Stores, and such he had proposed should be, in some degree, provided for by the.Stipplementary Loan. As to the failure of duties, Parliament was to pledge itself to keep up those duties. As to the criteria of hisEstimates,he could not fix upon one more certain than thatlvVehhe had fixed upon to form such criteria, namely, the exist7m4 expenditure, and he left it con- . fidently to the-Noble Lord to find, if he could, a . . .itetia so sileisfa , clory. .The Noble 'Lord had corn ained that there had not been sutlicient provl,4on End foresight in I , 4_;!:l,lCrit arrn con_ Dispatches. The Santa Maria, a Portuguese Ship, arrived in the Downs on. Wednesday, after a passag of only twenty-seven days from Monte Video. The, British Troops, when she sailed, remained at Ma; ,; donado, and no further attempt had been made upon. Monte Video. It was reported that the Spaniards weio making preparations to attack the Britibh forces at Maldonado. They must be elated indeed by. thpig. success if they made so desperate an attempt. Santa Maria, on the 11th January, fill in with the' Nereide Frigate, with her Convoy, in lat. G. 40. N. 25. W. The Nereide was proceeding with reinforce" meats for Buenos Ayres, and had not heard o f the' re-capture of that place until informed by the Sant . Thp following extra is from a letter of an in; telligent Officer on board the Leda, in the Squadroq under Sir HOME POPHAii, • dated Rio de la Plata, Otflober 14. Some minute proceedings '(not in the Gazette) which preceded the recapture of Buenos Ayres, are stated in this ex,traa. I, convicts tli Enemy of the'rnost disgraceful perfidy and treachery; • " On the 26th' Ray -the . Commodore ordered, most of our 'guns and stores out of the. Leda, to enable him to proceed as near the town of Buenos Ayres as possible, and on the 27th hoisted his broad pendant on board her, ,apd 'sailed up. the river•within ten miles pf Buenos Ayres.. On the 3d of August I was ordered on, shore to compleat the Ship,. where I perceived every frfce bore evident marks of dismay and anxiety. My intention of joining.the Ship .. immediately was prevented by a 'bile of wind, which unfortunately camp. on, and continued without intermission for seven days,where by I was compelled to undergo and participate the horrors of momentary assassination from - sun-set until day, once again cheered our drooping spirits; four . night out of the seven I slept in the Cita del guard-room with Bar.uNGAL, our Marine Of ficer, .who with his party of Marines landed when I did. '.:The daily treachery and frequent stabs by tile stiletto, given by concealed Spaniards, - rendered it unsafe to view or explore the town. .I,ean, there-7 fOrt. , ,, say little upon its bnildings or its size ; but from gmoral opinion, it is much hirzer thati Bath,. I e fo gr NF D den ui M a Cal ley cot' :L)e Co, den Ray tot lon rcn Fat St rz Wa 'POI C rZ