The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1822-06-20 00:00:00

-eau of Parliament declared epou it before the close of the Session._ Mr. DAWSON spoke. The SIMMER& called him to order for going into the question. the postponement of which was in discussion. Mr. Howe wished to know if he would be at liberty to take up the motion immediately upon the abandonment of it by the Hon. Member for Galway. Mr. BROWN LOW wished to know if the Irish Repremetation might rest satisfied that Govern ment would lend their support to an inqui►y in the next Session, provided his Hon. Friend withdrew his motion. Mr. DALY said, that if he could get any pledge 7rom Government for supporting him in his claim fur a Committee in the next Session he would with draw his motion. otherwise he was so far pledged to the House that he mast go on. Only let it be understood that he should not be opposed iu that motion and he would refrain at present. Mr. GOULBUIN could only repeat what he had before averred, that the subject of tithes commuta tion had been long under the consideration of the Irish Government. To this he would add an assu rance either ro bring forward a measure at the open ing of nest Session, or assign some remelt to the House for not doing it. Mr. VElialf FITZGIRALD added his entreaties to induce his Hon. Friend to withhold his motion. Mr. C. H (memoir urged the Hon. Member for Galway to proceed, as the Right Hou. Secretary could give him no direct assurance of his motion being acceded to, or of any measure being produced on the part of Government. Sir H. PARNSLL thought there could be little reason for delay, when it was found impossible to obtain any direct pledge from the Right Hon. Secretary, aid if he were inclined to give any, there was still the d , fficolty of having to contend with the opinion of the Attorney-General for Ireland, who was directly opposed to the question. So that whatever pledge the Right Hon. Secretary might chase to give. all hope was taken away by the de• claration of the Attorney-General. Mr. Cri LCIIA FT thought that delay must be use less, after all the assurances which had been given to the House, and forfeited by Secretary after Se cretary, though many of them were men of great talents, sod remarkable for the lore of their coun try. He thought the question flagged, probably from the warn of that powerful ingredient, the de clared sense of Parliament, which would certainly facilitate the measure. Mr. DALY complained of the embsramment of his situation. He was under strong pledges to the Home, and at the same time he was anxious to oblige his Right Hon. Friend, in whom he had pest confidence.--(Cries of " Go on!") Mr. PLusarra had understood that some doubt existed as to whether the motion should proceed, which rested with him to explain. His friends did Noe mere honour than he expected, to attach so much importance to his opinions. He said now, as he had said ill along, he did not see his way clearly as to the adoption of any direct and specific plan for commuiation of tithes, concerning which no two merabi!rs were agreed. He did not know bow • compulsory commutation could be effected with safety. He did nut say that such a plan was is. possible. If any member would bring forward ouch • motion, he would cordially support it. pro. vided it did not infringe the sacred rights of pro perty. If that pledge went for nothing, it must be because the rights of property were not to be held sacred. Mr. CRUM spoke to order. There had been the longest and moot irregular negociation going on between official men which he had witnessed in twenty years of parliamentary life, to determine if they were to proceed or not. And now the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman was going into the merits of the subject, on the discussion of which they had not yet decided to enter or not. The &magas thought that there was nothing in the practice but what was usual and ordinary in that House, though, in strictness, it might be wholly irregular. Mr. PLONICITT did not suppose that the Ho nourable Member wished to deprive him of en op portunity for explaining, which he would be wil ling to give to any other person. There were no doubt many things, with respect to tithes. that night he amended. The oppressive costs of suits paid by small farmers from whom the tithes were collected. was • grievance. As these things were tinder the consideration of Government, and it might be that • measure would be brought forward to the next Session of Parliament. Of one thing he was assured, that, if the Honourable Member's motion were entertained. it would raise an slam among the clergy, under the idea that the whole of the tithe system were going to be indiscriminately unwired. Mr. DALT said, after what had fallen from the Right Honourable Gentleman, as he felt assured the immure would be beat in the hands of the Govemment, he thought he should not be doing justice to the subject it he were now to press it. Mr. Mina said, that in consequence of the lion. Member's declining to press his motion, he would now bring forward the subject of tithes, and the state of the church in Ireland. He had given anotice on the subject early in the Sermon, but lied given way on the suggestiou that his Majesty's Go vernment would take up the business. He was happy that he had given way, though the measures which his Majesty's Government had proposed were little commemorate with the evils which were to be ieniedied, for after all they only proposed that the whole question should stand over till next Session. Hr wished to put en end to that state of disquietude Ireland, which occasioned an expense to this coun try of 2,000,0001. per ann. on its military establish ment. On looking at the state of Ireland for so many years put, he was not able to find in the tithes alone a tillifiCileat C 411114 for the evils under winch that country laboured. The opinions which tie had formed, he wouldstate candidly and fairly to the House. He considered that the whole church evtablislimeot was the main cause of that disaffec tion and inquietude which existed in the country, and the tithes being the only tangible point, stood first in the rank of grievances. As to the right of property in tithes, h e wou ld b eg to c l ear t h e q ue stion, by declaring on that point, that no man could be more anxious then he to 'noble the clergy of lrelaod to carry into fall effect those sacred • .. 4 • • • funitions which were itiiPoseel on them by the State, ' but he would protest against their having allow. mutes . dispcoportionate to the ditties they had !to perform. The Right Hon. Seretary of State (Mr. Peel) and the Right Hon. and Learned Attorney. General (Mr. Plunkett) had stated that tithes were as much Wrote property as any in the country. He (Mr. Hume) entirely digitated from that opi- Mont he considered the property of the church NI having no ofaffinity whatever to private property. The church property was, granted to Support the religion of the Slates and the GovernMent might undoubtedly make any alteration But thought proper, ekcept as it regarded vested interests, and he fur one would never be a party to depriie arty Bishop or other Clergyman of any income which he might now possess. In the year 1733 the Act of Ayer. nsent took place, snd by the Act of Union it had since been sanctioned by this country, but if that were a robbery, why had not the Right Honourable Secretary mud the Attorney-General brought back that property to the church? But in fact all the Goversimeuts of the continent have taken upon themselves to dispose of the church property in the manner which he should recommend I here he would contend Bost a church establishment wail no pert of the Ch 'an religion; slid if the Hesse were therefore to abolish theta all to-morrow, none of the rules laid down by the Founder of our reh gnus would be abrogated. On this head he hardly need quote the authority of Paley, who said, " A church establishment is no part of Christianity : it is only a mean of inculcating it." The question then was, fur what purpose was the funds given ? and then came the question, whether too much or tou little hail been given ? and he (Mr. Hume) came to the conclusion that too much had been given. He came to that opinion on seeing the number of 34 Bishops for a church consisting of 500,000 individuals. He would ask if that formed no part of the disaffection, and whether it was not a natural consequence when the people saw so liege a portion of the produce of industry di. rected to the support of a church which had such little duties to do, and those inefficiently per formed. The next curer of dissatisfaction, in his opinion, was, the appointment to benefices of per. sons who were many of them absentees : the man. nor in which the church of Ireland was served had certainly created • great MIN of discontent and dia. satisfaction. Ti,. third cause was the state in which the Ecclesiastical Courts of the country were. These Courts were more worthy of the Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. Goulburn) labours and attention than the power of leasing tithes which he had intro. duced. The fourth eau., was the manner in which tithes were collected. The Hon. Member here cited some well-known instances of abuse in the collection of tithe., and *end in the House a letter which he hail received from the Earl of Glengall, which slated that the Bishop of Waterford was rector of a parish in Tipperary, where the population was almost ex clusively Catholic. The rents had been lowered very considerably, in some instances nise-fifth, yet the Bishop, since last October, had raised his tithes • 4d. per acre. Another case, which he had verified on affidavit, was But of Jas. Conway, of Galante: his tithes were exactly half the value of the whole produce of his land. Another case was stated in a petition to the Grand Jury of Galway. Those persons now paid the same tithe, wheat be ing Ss. to 7.. per cwt. which they paid when it was gst. per cwt. and the Petitioners stated that they were quite unable to pay their rents, though they had not been advanced for the last thirty years. Was this. he would ask, a state of things which his Majesty's Miiiipters would wish to remain in Ireland ? It was not an insulated case, for such cases abounded in Ireland. He thought, after hearing the statement of the Honourable Member for Sligo, a man must be &mime of the comma feelings of humanity who could recommend delay to Parliament, and he regretted that-the Hon. Mem ber (Mr. Daly) should have been induced to with draw his motion. It was not surprising that, under all the circumstances, discontent should prevail ; nay, when Government would not give redress, it was the duty of the people to have recourse to the last resort—resistance.—(Hear.)—He would name his authority for this doctrine if the Hon. Gentle. men opposite required it. But experience had Aeon that from year to year there had been dis turbances in Ireland little short of rebellion, and • there was no man of candour hut what would say the tithe system had had a great share in causing them, and it would show an utter disregard for the feelings of the people for the Government to delay constitut ing an inquiry. He would tweak out directly. The Archbishops and Bishops had not done their duty ; he would speak nothing that he did not conscientiously believe, and if he mistook in any thing he might he corrected. One of the evils complained of was the non.residence of the clergy, a. an instance of which the Hon. Member read the correspondence of Lord Blayney with the Bishop of Clogher and his pa rishioners, in which they complained of the want of a resident Rector, and though Lord Blayney fol. • lowed up the complaint to the highest authorities. he was onside to procure any redress. He would ask the Right Honourable Secretary for Ireland, what excuse the Government could have for the • encouraging the abuse of absenteeship ? He called their neglect of the applications of resident Gentlemen an encouragement to *het abuse, for surely nothing could be a stronger inducement to • Gentlemen to expatriate himself, than seeing misery which he could not relieve. It appeared by the returns made to that House, that there were 2,234 perishes, 1,270 benefices, 194 benefices without churches. There were (and he called the attention of the [louse to the fact) 763 incumbents resident out of 1,270 benefices, so that there were 507 non. residents. Now he would ask any man who talked of his regard for religion (end there were no men more ready to cant about it than hie Majesty's Wasters), whether there could have been so great a smoother of non-residents. if the Bishops had done their duty, end whether the Right Huo. Secretary would not have been better employ ed in remedying this abase, than in his paltry measure of leasing ? It was a perfect mockery.— (Hear, hear.)—He would repeat it, the evil was, that the persons whom the House would authorise to grant licenses did not do their duty. Even some Bishops, he had heard, were absent from their dioceses for 40 years I How was such conduct to promote the cause of religion? Having stated the I facts of collectiog the tithes, and the nun-residence of the clergy, by world now come to the state of • • t k- • im .1 tb..l4llllfale It appeared troth ritormoo‘d. to th a t House in. pursuance of an Address tibia N,,jasj r . in May 11110. that of the 1,0270 incumbents, at only had returned 'mowers to the queries sent to theist ; but if • Committee were rutted questions might be framed; end the whole subject ecrtild be brought fully before Parlisinent in the next Session. I It appetites! that Ireland contained 18 millions of English acres, and the property belonging to the church was 2-1 lths of tht whole. Tht income of the Bishops was larger thou the clergy of the whole Continent of Europe ; for :example, the estates of the Bishoprick of Armagh, which produced new 15,0001. • year, according to the calculation of Mr. Wakefield, ate rock rent would be worth lio,oool. , or 150,000/. a year. How was that Repot sum disposed of? It was granted to the relations and friends of the Bishops in constant soceresinri, (Hear.)-=This he would prove if he were allow ed, and that the income arising from the sees alone would be aufficient , to support the whole church of Irelaud, both Catholic and Protestant.• There woo nothing extraordinary in whet be proposed to do, for England end Ireland were the only countries in Europe where 1-10th of the produce of the land was taken for the support of the clergy. But its his opinion the clergy of Ireland were overpaid. He disclaimed the priuciple that the chorch was td be maintained es s au psmort eel the gesimesumemt. A peer... ment whiCh could not exist without a• church ought not to exist at hear.)—He begged the Honourable Gentlemen who cheered would not imagine that he was for having no church ate. blishment. The Honourable Member then gave the state of tithes in the different countries of Ea. rope. In Tuscany the Grand Duke Leopold had set aside the funds of the Jesuits in order to abo lish tithes, and as the incumbents dropped off, the tithes were abolished for ever, their succes sors taking a salary out of the appointed fund,— Now, if the property elouging to the sees of Ire. laud were so extensive as represented, he did not see why we should not adopt that means of paying the clergy. In France en Archbishop had only 8001., end a Bishop 6001. a-year ; not that he meant to propose similar sums for our Bishops. The money which that House was coutinually voting for glebe houses, they would be usrprised to hear was riot given to perishes without funds, but to parishes which had sufficient. As an instance of the misapplication of the funds of the church, it appeared from the returns that Sir Thomas Forster had three livings, was besides master of Carysfort school, and hail several hundred acres of glebe; the Hon. Charles Knox hail two livings and some hun• dred acres of glebe; the Hon. Spencer Knox had three rectories. All these Gentles.n were, if he were rightly isfeeresed, living no the Contineet with their families. He begged pardon of the Howse for having detained them so Wag. Be appealed to the Hon. Member, who had heard the former diaireseme, whether something would sot be expected is Ireland to be dose; sail if the Parliament should for that purpose sit a moot Is longer, it would be their duty to de it. He wished the House to go taro a fall inquiry, 'hooch be would propose, bad he the pewee, that no change should take place till arum die death of the reseal iecoeseet. He coacleded by moving a Itenalotioa— " That the Howes shoold,esely its the next Seniors, inspire ion° the state of the Church in Irelatid, aid the 111111•11 s. Is which tithes are collected there, with a view to asakiog each &twenties as they may me At." Mr. ELME said be nee with pleasure to second the metiers of tea Hoe. Priced. He was impressed with the necessity of somethiiig being dune with a view te coacili ming the Irish people, knowing that he should be called before toeg to re-enact that odious law, the losurreetion Act, sad though he should have given the preference to the motien of the Hosourable Geatleasse (Mr. Daly), as beteg more limited Mao that of his Honourable Priced, yet be was prepared to go the fall kngth of the latter. According he a retorts oa the table of the Howse, it appeared that the number of tithe ands in one covet, (Galway) in one year had amoveted to so less then between six sad *eves and forty thousavd.—(Hear )—He would ask any Hos. Member, whether if a system of tithe collection so °ports. eive sad vexatious, as to give rise to so any cases of resist. mace, were nowise °penitent in any comely so England, Kest, er Barmy, fur iestasice, that House would sot have felt it tit. numbest oo it to adopt some legi.lative measure for the removal arm intolerable • grievaree ?—(Hear.)—The people of England, he was couldn't, world Brener bare submitted to the condiment* of such a syinens.—(Hear, This was the °sly Government ender which that oppressive system mattered to be 'adored. It had beta got rid of ie other countries ;—sad by what means? By each as he herd sever le see resorted to in this eismstry;—by, lemma, the se. enmity of which he hoped to see averted by timely removal of the shows of the system—(Hear)—by the mesas of re eoletton.—(Hear, bear!)—He was sure that by degrees they might arrive at such • settlemeut of this guesttoe, as would be satisfactory to the country at large, sad sot meet the disapprobation of any great number of those who had a pro. pray is the tithes. He begged pardon for having so long de. tinned the HOOP* epos this subject; but he had been ie. deiced to step (missed as se English Member of that Horse to support the motion of has Hon. Friend (Mr. Heme), is order to skew the Centime's of belied that the fretless of this coral., were not dead so the interests of !relied. Mr. D. BROWN Ecautiooed Gent lemeo who, for the inter. sets of Indeed, would advocate a general thentesetatiou of tithes, bet deprecated erecting it by rrudatiossry against introducing it with revolutionary epees-U.9.—(H6er.) —He estertained the gr,stein respect for the church esta blishment of Scotland, sad believed it to base wrought the best moral effects on the people of that cavalry, bet he had never before understood it to be ie the contemplation of any toms is that Hoses to change the prevent church establishment of ketosis, for are of • similar construction, as he most conclude to be the ultimate object of the Honoemble Gentleman's (Mr. Hasse) emotion, from the tanour of the speeds with which he bad introduced it. H. called, therefore, on the Irish Gen- Hemen present to vote against the motion of that Hoe. Mem ber. If the measure which had already been introduced (that of Mr. Guulbere) should not, as he hoped it would, prove the stepplog•alooe to a naessere is the next &ileitis for a general commutation, be (Mr. D. B.) pledged himself tires to bring forward a measure for effecting that object. Sir J. NEWPORT said, is offering what he was about to propose, the Right Hon, Gentlemen who had just sat down would do him the justice to believe that be was at tested by as sincere a desire to promote the imrests of his country, and by as purr a muse of what was due to it. fare, as the Rig►t Hon. Gentleman himself. He objected to the reliance which that Right Hon. Geetlemen inculcated, laposi the promises sad intentions of Ministers wit► respect to the subject Osw before them, because be remembered that Ave or six year* ago, the Noble Lord, thee and now, at the heed of the Cluvrroment, stated in the ether House, that the subject was wader the consideration of Gust remorn*, aid that a memo" was in preparation which he hoped would shortly be brought before Parlisineet, having fur its beats an equitable commortation of the tithes ; fur he had reason to believe that the principle of cereneetatiee, though perhaps not applicable in England, might be found perfectly suitable for adoption to Ireland. Could there thee, be world ask, be any coalidence now reposed in the premises of the •acre Goverommit, of belaying the subject forward in the next Session Was et Attie', eta the pres to ' s t ate of Ireland, after measurer of coercion had We■ call ed for—after they had been acquiesced in —after t►ey had beep probes seed *ternary to repress disturbance. w►tc► it was on all baud. admitted bad arisen eat of this very How system—was it Ailing that Parliastest should separate wittiest expressing some derided opining es ibis I. 'object ! With reepeet to nit eighties ait had new been brought before the House, he bedbo wish livid: op witb it extenoeous topics which were not necessarily 'connected with its coesidenatioe ; bat doable havieg bees expressed as to the truth cud justice of the complaints •bovi the noneesideace of the clergy, he felt It necessary to ogees few words epos that 'object. He had them before Mee • Petition which he himself had presented to the House ea the 3lst of Blenheim the Pro. lethal inlsablisats of two parishes in the toasty of Mayo, complaining that a Geier of those parishes had remedy takes place *mkt episcopelentliority, aid that so greet was the easiest of the united perishes,: that they were prevented by the distance from impeding their proper place of worship. The extent to which these unions of parishes had been car. vied was most 01101M01114 'There weep glebes of 6,000 acres, of 1,600 acres, and of 1,400 acres, which bad me glebe house attached lo them. That was contrary to the Act of George 11. die fogad an inctenst of 1,400 scree of glebe, a pluralist living on • 'kb, of App acres in another perish. He "mold sot dee, that its softest the dioceses ceesidenible improvement bad takes place since 1607; but it was equally undeniable that • great usembee of unitise of perishes had Icon 'Ceded within that period. Even so late as the year 1616, the powers of the Lord Lieutesiant had bees exercised in that particular. The returns before the House *hewed that early in the list century Abe ausehe of lathed and slim united parishes was even; bet since that period, as the covetry had adesimed in tillage, sod the population iscressed, the naldberof sailed parishes had become grei, end that of the dieenited parishes imeorgeeetly dimid He found by the rehires Iva vicarages united with Owe rectories In the diocese of Kilialue. la one instance the parishes se united formed a district of sevinten mike (be diameter as we endentood). T h at was one of the 'elk complained of in the preamble to the Act .of 2 Otsego 14 which stated that " many parishes wer e so vas t t h at i t we d wish great difficulty that Ilk parialtiosers could attend the parish church, aid return house is the same day."— Au Honourable Friend of his had leavened over the whole diocese of Chanty to make • survey, in order to compare the &vital state of the diocese, with Bishop Po- cock's report; and he found that Meet the death of that prelate, the Protestant population of the diocese had dm created in the properties of two-fifths, while the general pa. potation had km eased more than double. Such was his coariminis of the necessity, fur the itititl of the peace sad tranquillity of Ireland, that this sehrit of she church establishment and the tithes should undergo • speedy and thorough consideratiom with • view to the removal of the osistiog grievances arising out of the system, that be should move an amendeteet, pledging the House to orb early cousideratioe of the 'object in the meat Session, with • view to a fair sled equitab;• commetatios.—(Hear.)— Whatever other per Naught have doom be should propos this with no view to spoliatloo--be shmild leave spoliation to the Union Parlisaseet.—(Cbtera.)—He fotiod it recorded apse the Journals of the proceedings of that Parliameat. that LO•WO was given to bring in a Bill to bk. •II outlying chines for tothm"—(Chems,)—and that she said Bill was or. derrd to be brought is by Lord Vittoria Casitermigh— (hear, and laughter)—Mr. Attoraey•General,Mr. Solicitus.General i aid Mr. Prime Berjeaet ; that the mid Bill was brought is android • Gest time en the 16th March ; that it wits reed a woad lime se the illst March ; and that oft the 31st March, it was read a third time, mid pasted, mid ordered to be ear. rind to the Lords. When skis subject was seder discussion of a kenem 'veiling, the Noble Lord opposite (Londonderry) said he hoped that he (Sir J. Newport) did mot hotrod to beach ape* the church property. New he .Held ask who. they that was a gaieties to come from that Ruble Lord, who had himself made so 'seeping as invasive of she church property In the Bill to which he lied jest alluded' Was such a gaieties lo be put by the mover of that Bill, to his whit proposed to give • fill and fair equiv. lea, fur the tithes which he would have them lunge! He was not therefore sa advocate for spohatiom though his Right Hoe. end Learned Priced opposite (Mr. Plunkett) bad charged it apes him, because he world ant make any allowance for donate, elitism.— (Hear.)—He wool/ ask, how it could for a enchneot be sup. posed that they were to be obliged to give • compensation fur tithes that had sever bees mild, sad that it Was sot she cus tom to collect t Wee it optimise to refine tenipetifttioe for that which had hitherto sewer bees claimed ! For the safety aid permanence of the church itself, he would give a composition each as would mown to • full equivalent for villas it had hitherto bees tossed to receive, sad is such • way as would contribute to establish the per. =anent peace sad tranquillity of the country. Thinking as be did that the peace of the country was at stake, sad con , Meted as he was that unless they deft. seised to remove this intolerable grieverce, they most be prepared to meet the dreadful alternative of prolongiag the catmint disturbances, sod perpetuating the irritation and angry feelings which it excited among a popolatioo of 7.000,000 of periwigs, who had been deceived is she expectations and promises held out to themes the fruits of the Union, of an iskotilkation of the &rheas and interests of the two revelries, and as menthe. lion Grebe tithe system, which should have the effrei of eons*. lidating the interests of the Established Church with the peace and tranquillity of she coveity, be should conclude by moving as an amendment, % TIM with • view so steer. ing the tranquillity sod happiness of Ireland, this House will, early in the next Reesios, she the subject of the col lection ohithes, as affecting that pert of the Veiled King. dem, into its serious consideratioe, with a view so substi tuting fur the present reclines/ and vexatious mode of mipportieg the church establishment, a full and fair "qui: Talent." Mr. GOULRURN said, if he was compelled to dissent from the motion of the Right Hes. Strout!, it uas ouly Incases be ceased/Ted that motion as likely to produce el frets prejudicial even to that measure w►ich he wished to forward, and as altogether recalled for. He would sot ea. ter into the discussion of the question, how far it might be possible to come to a satisfactory artangemeat of commute. boo. To any plan founded os the principle of a fair coma pensatioa to the Church establishment fur the interests which it was required to forego, he fur one could nut hare any indisposition to accede. But the Heine was not i■ a mi. nation to judge of the expedierny of commutation, because the allure of t►e measure which it was intended to propose for that purpose was not before It. He was opposed to the system of pledging Parliament to the conduct which it would pursue on any particular subject its • futon , Session, because such pledges seldom led to any satisfactory result. And •apposing this motion of the Right Ho.. &reset to be carried, sad that the measure which be should brims forward next Session to cumplete his well.oneast teotions should t►em be found unsatisfactory, slid deemed impracticable, be would ask, what would be the effect in tranquillising the minds of the people of Ireland, of t►us dashiag from their lips the cup of expectatius which this rstatioa would have raised ? He could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that every doeskins was entertained by the It ish Government to remove such evils, arising out of the lecoorenient union of parishes as were brought under its notice ; and iu the only ease which had bee* Weight under ►is cousideration, the Lord Lieutenant bad directed the parishes concerned to be disunited. In objecting to the gross to the moms of parishes and non-resideore ads clergy, great injustice was in many cases dose to the megabertof OM body. He was ready to admit, as s pineal principle, that a union of parishes was as abuse, sod that sou residence was as evil. But it oriels happened that by unitise two parishes, advs.- tages were secured to both, which neither (veld otherwise have possessed. The Husourable Member for Aberdeen had correctly d the number of bewellees and of reside's ia cumbests; hut be was by no mesas borer out is his is liereocee of abuse is the noes-residence of the remainder. If be refereed to ire return, he would dad 47 elergymes, red disc is the perishes adjuiaiag to their own. There was so other class she were uonovsidessi from age Lad infirmity ; sad others, from a variety of causes—some censurable perhaps —some more or less enlist, and stagy altogether id able. He was ready to admit that actiocatidence es. in most easel an incouvesiesce, sod generally as evil; but in mssy instances, as far as regarded the lusinoctios of t►e people, the residence of the curates would be fuuud to be equally effective. With respect to t►e stetson of the Hun. Member fur Aberdeen, to follow him through t►e whole course of his speech would be to detain t►e House too loag. Maay of the ealcelatieue tif that Hos, Member he could undertake to say were arrestors' many of hie *talesman he (Mr. G.) item to be at transact with the fact ; and others he was pelted to believe were greatly exaggerated. He bad rassielia ad every class of society iu search of testimony Is 11111110,1 of his *mimesis. He hod commenced wit► an Hool, and • • elided with a eollseer, al wherein to hear him out in hie i Charge' against the clergy of exactios •in the esforeteg of their tithes, when it was oemitted on all hands that they re.. • ceived much lees than their doe. With moppet to she cam. stated from the letter of • Noble Earl agaimet the Biebop of Waterford, he believed the Hon. Member would led, if he Welk the pains teptaq•ire, that the lithe is 911111140111 I to a charity of which the Bishop wee the /link truster. He did Dos mean to impute to the la n d e d Gesilernee say ensue desire to exact exorbitant real; but he had foiled, se ' fee es his ismoiries had goo., that the redoetios of tithes Illways kept pace with the Inwerisg of mots. The Hon. Member denhd that the once\ bad buy right of property in the tithes. Hut he (11e.(?welbers) would wisiutain that it bed such a right, sad in behalf of his °piglets be might cite the authority of the Ant lawyers, is the COUltify, living sad dead, in and out of .Paeliantent, who had had the subject soder their considemilien; as/ the Hoe. Member would ac quit. Wm of any want of regret or civility towards him, if he declined to accede to his, new-fatigled acetates in °eon 'Mien to such rove authorities. He gave the Honourable Member for Abeeders .credit for petting the clergy of Eoglaod es the testing of thou Is Seutlood; but he ought to have comeldered the great centrist between Ne two countries. Aeeordieg to what the Honourable Member pro posed. he would only give out Archbishop 5001. a year-- Mr. HUM :germ No, no; 5,000/. year." . Mr. GOULBURN—If the property of the chore% wee to be allseked, as the Hamoutable Member proposed. for haying large posseesiose, would sot the psupertY of others, baying large posseeliose, hit also attacked, the Doke, the Marmots, sod the Earl? If they attempted to reduce the propene of the chipreb, it would be doing away with all shot was desirable is society. He would not troulitil the Howse lomger, bet ha thought thely world sot, be found many who would support either the propo s iti on o f the Hos. Member or that of the Hon. Baron t, Sir JOHN NEWPORT etplained. Mr. DALY said, when he looked at the distresses of Ireland heihought the measure proposed by his Majesty's Govern 'sent was not an adequate relief, and it had bees declared by the late Mr. Perceived, that it mold tier., be carried Oslo effect. He folly greed with the m o ti on o f the Hos. Baro net, and with every word that hail fade. noon hon. The question iss i ieleettier the people et Inked would be more saliskeil Pith the pledge of his Majesty's Gorerenteet, or that of Parliament, sod there could be nu doubt bet they world rely more on the latter. Mr. SPRING RICE laid, that Mr. P I bad given as large • pledge as that offered by the Right Hon. Seestiery for Ireland withuiit having redeemed his pledge, sad a pimplier pledge had bees given by Lord Maryborouxh with the sense cousequeeces. He was tioavireced if may thine world satisfy the people of Irelased it scald be thit of Parasitical giving • pledge that they would iemeire Into the subject of tithes; and if they did not give that pledge, it world be holding out that any rommelatlon would be • scourge that did not give the full tithe on potatoes, it would be calling me the English Meta. hers to reels, a measure that would be the means of potting Ireland is • state of quiet. It had bees said by the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland that the tithes had Whip with the rents ;it was so such thug—it was nut what the clergy re totted that was compleiceil of, but what the middle men ex acted. He had no doubt if Pm liament threw cold water on this subject, bet every couusy, city, and beratet, would potties for a consrautaliou of tithes. He for one would prefer a pledge of Parliament to that of soy Addilelstration, sad be celled for that pledge now. Mr. PEEL said, that the Titration was not that of cum inutatios of tithes maw, but whether Parliameet would millet into • pledge that they would go Into an Inquiry next Bessie* on the subject. He objected to that pledge; for if they weal into that inquiry, and the result was not favour able, it would only disappoint the people of Ireland and cause disturbance. He objected to any Fledge of one Session for whet moodier Session of Parliamarit would do; they ought to avoid pledges that might nut be redeemed. He had been six years cossetted •ith sad had given the subject his fell coasideralloa, hut he found insuperable obstacles is skeeter the system. He would sok would they dispossess the elergyease of hie eight which his fortiearasese hod prevented him from exacting, and give the man wed had exacted the full teeth complete remseeration ? On those grounds it was that he opposed the proposition of the Right Hoe. Beromet, Mr. BROUGHAM said, Who understood the Right Hoe. Secretary who had jest sat doss, he memo to say that be would nut agrrr to • pledge of the House, hut that Mi- Dialers dodos the recess would consider the subject, sod in the next Sessions Niteroi them of the result of that consider sties. He would not pledge himself that they would bring in e Bill for the commutation of tithes; thee the result would be that they could do nothing, which was all that had been done for the last thirty years. The very reason of the subject barium been before Parliament for the lest 30 yearn , was why he (Mr. Brougham) wished for the pledge, as be did not want it to he 30 years more before them. Os the question of the Slave Trade, s pledge had bees gives by that House wed redeemed, and why sot is this instance? They had so choice, far that something most he done to remedy the evil, was as clear as the outs at sous day; the state of bellied called for it. Then why hesitate at giving a pledge, when it was scheme. hedged that a change must take place for the protection of the clergy and the people of Ireland, and they owed the pledge to them foe the missy years of snes.government in that country. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, that be could assert ow the part dike Irish Members, that they only sought inquiry. There was no man who bad heard the statement of the Hue. Member for Aberdeen hut woul.l see there were great grievances, and there could he no danger in the Howse of giving • pledge that they Would go into the inquiry; if the) did not, the danger would be, that it would he supposed that the Honor was led by the Ministers. Mr. PLUNKETT said it wu not his wish to detain the Homer at that late hour. He, however, could not but say that the amendment proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet was premature and dangerous, for it went to soy that au measure was intruded to be proposed on the subject, when three was a Bill to the effect before the House which had not gone through its second stage, and he was convinced that the as • boon by Ireland. It was • drAnite measure, and the Right Hun. Baronn t had not proposed one, he only culled ow the House to pledge themselves so inquiry in the next Session". He could mot agree to the principles laid dose by the Hos. Member fur Aberdeen, fur they were those of spoliation and robbery, which seat to the subversion of properly sad - rests.-(Hear, bear.)—He would ask, waive the lay improprte aloes retitled to tithes ? Übe was answered is the affirms tire, the clergy were ales, sad this was the system sloe Hon. Masher for Aberdeen said ought to be ri listed by re He contended that tithes did not c..nstilate a grievance more than rents, and if they were to be commuted, It must he by justice arid conciliations. If the pledge asked by the Right Hon. Bart. was given, it would excite hopes that sever might be realized. He was convinced that competing, commutation could In log his opinion, he would move the previous question. Mr. DENIS BROWNE said he would vote for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's amendment. Hr NICHOLAS COLTHURSI' said be would take the same course, 'we've. he might participate is the setitimeems of the Right Hon. Baronet. Colonel TRENCH said, be wee convinced there never would be peace in Ireland without • el:immolation of tithe., sod au cud put to the present imamate of paying the ckegy ; at the same time he was of opinion that the Guverumest of Ireland woul.l And the remedy. Mr. DAWSON mode • fray observations, but in so law a • tone of voice as to be inaudible is the gallery. ' Sir E. (O'BRIEN said he would support the motion •f His. Gentleman (Mr. Home). He did nut know whether there were any thug Is the trammels of office that locked op the understanding, but Is was very strange that propositions which appeared simple to hint should seem difficult to tbem. Mr. R. MARTIN said he wee friendly to the prisciple of commutation, but although be would pledge himsell he would not Orrice ethers. • Mr. HUME replied. The Right Has, the Allem,- Gemini was ready with the usual cry of " revolution," as spoliation.* He detected the moat le his brother's rye • but be saw not the be a m . its his owe. Spoliate** sad rob! Wry were fine words. He abjured Its pi inciple ou his ogee pin. He opposed the doctrine that Parliamest could Met meddle: "Ida church railway. But it was oar I '''lV T'' 7 "