The Sun. — London, England, 1807-04-10 00:00:00

!T7 ,\\\ \,. r • - - - • -- a • - v 9T.1„..41( • "•+,. • "tor , • ' e:44, :4 jt i15k i1f„, , ,,.7., , , . ._ t 1 1 1 y — . I -... .... ... e. g,,,,.....,..2,- ; - ...• - « . ~ , - • -- 30 . , 4.,..,..- - 1iK • 7 :,......-„ • , k.' ...-,.... ' IS ,t.) NIMIBER 4545 . ] FRIDAY, APRIL 10, 1807. LPRICE LtaxptNcEp IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. .••- • . . might be - men of great chant:ter and exalted name, but after gi%ing such a pledge they would , not dare to advise their Sovereign on such sobeots. It•Wonld not be becoming in him to delineate the outline of the constitutional principles upon this „Rohn. If they were doubtful, it might be proper tor hini to: endeavour to ascertain them ; but these principles were admitted, recognized„ and supported ,by . .the, constitutional law cif *the land. The oath of a Privy. Conn011or; as reported' by Sir Edward Coke, bound, .him,to advise t. is Majesty= to the best Of .his judg-• merit upon all Matters conneEted with the interests of hisllealms, without exception'or partiality, and also‘with secrecy, and not to publish by word or letter what passed in Council. The present oath, which was only a translation of the old oath, : was equally-binding upon the Privy Councillor. But if . a Privy Councillor was to subscribe to any pledge, to restrain his advice, he WOuldsign judgment upon the violation of his oath to his King, his Country, and - his God. He would . be ashamed to argue what he con sidered as the axiomatic lair of the Constitution ; but as there might be some who might admit the princi -ple,-whilst they advised the.infraation of it,who might allow the law of the Constitution, but recommetid its subversion, he thOught it would be right to de- Clare that law. He had confined himself to the I'm- Opcliate effe&s and future dattgers of the proceeding that had taken place, and did not mean' to go into any. consideration' of the measures of the late Administra tion, their attention to the liberty, of the subjeo, and `to the rights and" comforts of the people, nor of the benevolence that chara&erised theirAel for the AbO-7 - , lition of the Slave Trade. When the ConititutiOn was .in danger, he thought it not right to depart from the immediate question, and, therefore, should Conclude with Moving,. =end the Parliament. BLitthough that eras-nOt a - written part of the Constitution, it had grown-into a principle of it by prescription. He thought his Afla- Jestk might in: general to defer to the,sense of Par liarnent,; yet .there were subjects upon which Crown was: bound constitutionally to exercise its judgment. Without this the Crown would be a cypher, or dead letter, and the Cabinet would be a part of the CroWn. As to the,pledge that had been denian4c4:•it had ,arisen from the unconstitutional stipulations that had been pressed upon his Majesty. •He admitted that they had a right to refuse to give the pledge, but they should admit that their stipulations were not constitutional.' If they had" withdraWn 'their stipulatiOns, - his Majesty might not have manded;the, pledge, and :in:refbsing to withdraw' them they were virtually their own dismissers. He thought that•by their condua they had brought the "constitutional 'exercise of the Prerogative into clues , . tion, and, what had never been the case till this in stance, indecently made the Crown responsible. He did7not think that they had been .strielly governed by constitutional principles, and had only to lament that any. circumstances should "oblige him.to differ •• with those to many of.whorn he had lng looked op with respect. Rut he was compelled. to discharge a duty, 'iwhichif he negleCted . he would be deprived of self-approbation, which he valued more Than any earthlyepossesFion.- They were bound 'to support the • constitutional , Prerogative of the Crown. If they withed• to. be free from the iron chains of 'despo tiStt; a to avoid being toSsed in the gulph cifdemo craticTUry he trusted.that they would, by their vato of that night; Uphold . the, =ln- pillar or the Consti tution., the tall of which might involve the ruin of the , whole labriC. HOUSE OF PEERS, 'THURSDAY, APRiC9. The Lord Chancellor (ELDON), .Lords AYLEs Pelf', and WALSINGHAM, sal in ,their robes as his Majesty's Commissioners, and declared the Royal kssent to' the Royal Family's Annuity Bill, and the Irish Pafer Duty Bill. The Earl of LONSDALE was introduced with the accustomed formalities ; his supporters were, Earls CAMDEN and WESTMORLANII. The Duke of BUCCLEUGH, Lord MONTAGUE, and a few other Peers, Were sworn, and took their seats. The Treasurer of the Navy's Bill, the Irish Re venue Regulation, and a few other Bills, were brought up from the Commons, and read a first time. Those on the table were forwarded. Adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. THURSDAY, APRIL 9. The House attended, 'pursuant to a Message by the Black Rod, 'in the House of Peers, where the Royal Assent was given by Commission to the - Royal Family Annuity Aft Amendment Rill, and to 'several Private Bills. -Mr; LONG; Mr. CURWEN, and several other Mem bers-, took the oaths and-theii seats. CATHOLIC BILL) Sir Wm. CURTIS presented a Petition from the Clergy of the City of London and Siott College, against the Bill now pending in Parliament; en titled " Au for enabling his Majesty to avail himself of the Services of all his liege Subje6ls " praying that it might not pass intin law.—Ordered to lie on the table.. " That it is contrary to the first duties of the Confidential Servants of the.Crovvn to restrain themselves by any pledge, expressed' r_ from offering to the king any z.dvice which the course of circumstances may render necessary for the welfare and security of any part of His Majesty's exten sive Empire." . The Scotch School -masters' Annuity Bill was read . a second time on the Motion of Mr. HENRY ERSKINE, and ordered to be committed :..as was also the Traders' Assets Bill, on the Motion of Sir , SAMUEL Romna.v, which was ordered to be corn _ fitted on Tuesday -next. • WESTMINSTER, ELECTION. Lord FOLKSTONE presented a Petition from Win. Drake, now in NeWgate,- stating his grief and moiti fication on hearing that the House had declared him guilty of wilful falsehood, and gross prevarication, When examined at the Bar of the House, touching the allegations in the Petition of James Paull; Esq. against the Right Hon. Richard Brinsley Sheridan. Btu as the Petition contained no confession of the guilt charged upon .the Petitioner, nor expression of contrition for it, the Speaker acquainted the Noble Lord, that it was contrary to the praAice of the House to . take any measures of lenity upon such a Petition. The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table, until one in a more-corre& krm .could be PrePar'gd, D ISMISSAL OF THE LATE MINISTERS. : air • BRAND rose, pursuant to his notice, to sub . 44 a motion to the House upon a -subjeet'of great national moment. As the question to which his mo- - t '° ll related was one of vast constitutional ina- Portahce, it was a matter of- real and unfeigned re- Wet to him, that such a. subjeft had fallen -into th.) hands' of one who. was peculiarly unfitted by,abili ties to give validity to his arguments... He had hoped, that he could - have supported the feelings of anxiety which the difficulty of such a task must excite ; but Unaccustomed as he was to public debate, he was then conscious of his inability, and of the necessity of bespeaking the - indulgence of the Chair, and of the House, an indulgence Which was never with held. He trusted that they would not attribute the This of the advocate to the cause he d e fe n d e d. Ibis cause was the cause of the Constitution. Pre vious to the recess, publicity had been given to a statement of the series of circumstances which gave rise to the late change, full, luminous, and to him satisfatiory. This statement had enabled him to form a judgment of the great chara6ter of the late Administration, which had pntitled them to the confidence of that House, and of the condu& of• those who had advised-bit Majesty to-dismiss them from office. In the cow s& of the late Ministers he saw every thing to admire, and the COuntry, -he could say, felt their dismissal with the deepest rej gret. When be had. given his . notice, it was his intention to move a Resolution expressive of the sense 'a the .House on that • conduCt, becanse he Was anxious, by such a Resolution, to stop the pro gres&of the calumnies that were circulated with such glaring falsehood and persevering effrontery. (le felt the value of public charaderiar7d was con= .linced that public worth was public security; Hi:. Original °hied was to bring forward such a Resolu tion, but when upon more mature refle&ion he carne to analyze the subjea,.and to view it in all' its bear ings, he thought it his-duty to confine his 11 , Totion* within narrower limits.- When he perceived hat pledges-had been demanded from the hue Ministers which were dangerous to the Constitution, from c it to the interests-of the Country, and subversive -of the prerogatives of the. Crown; he felt himself bound t i p confine his Motion- to that point. The , advice to . °ls Majesty to demand from his Ministers a wr itt en Pledge. that they would abstain from giving him ad vice upon subjeds of importanee to the security ; of t he Empire, must have originated with persons who hadno regard to the rights of that House, nor the Prerogatives of the Cr own . Hi s M a j esty - h a d f u ll d iscretion to dismiss his Counsellors, and to choose. Othe rs in their place, but, he could not limit -the r ange of advice which they might give him, and. for , w llich they-were to b e - responsible according to -the - C onstitution. Where - were they-to look for respoo; sibility for- misrule; misconduct, or mismanagement of the public affairs, if such a pledge were to be ' give n ? Where was blame to attach for grieVances, onon,which •Ministers might have given a pledge 41 4 to give any advice to' his, Majesty ? , Ministers.. • Mr. LAMBE, in rising to second the Motion of, _lbis Hon. Friend, though ,he should not at any time abstain from expressing his sentiments upon such a radical constitutional question, yet should not feel it necessary to trespas long upon the attention of the House, if the statement of his lionoUrable Friend had been less clear or legs satisfadory than it had been to him. Though the question was import apt, it appeared to him . to be in the smallest compass. He should state in what it consisted. Be fore the recess, it appeared that the rumours which bad agitated the public mind were founded in fact, and that his Majesty's. late Ministers having ex pressed their" intention to aEt as their situation and -their oaths requit - ed, had been dismissed, became th/ refused to abdicate their duty of advising hil Ma jesty under all circumstances, upon subleds con ne6ted with the preservation of the dignity of the Crown and the safety of the Country. He had re gretted the Adjournment, because, in his' mind, a doEtrine struck a blow at the Constitution, and was subversive of the principles of our Government, and he thought that .House. would renounce its rights, if it delayed to pronounce its opinion Uponso unCotlSti• tutional 'a proceeding. But upon furth6r considera. tion, he thought the adjournment was proper, be • cause it would lead more clearly and explicitly to the . t adoption of the Resolution by a larger majority, an t i because such Resolution would have the more weight. if asiiented to after a more mature deliberation. • The King, in the exercise of the fundions of his Govern- . rh6nt,' has the. aid of the Great • COuncil of the Na Parliament. But.for the purpose of secrecy, a large diScretionary power is vested in the Crown,: . assisted by his Privy Council, and, on late occasions, though not necessarily so, by . his more secret and. confidential advisers in the Cabinet, who are respen.• sible to the Public, This arrangement. conibined.the secrecy and dispatch of an arbitrary Government, with the publicity and responsibility of a Republican Government. In case of such a pledge beihg given As that alluded to in the , Resolution, what secarity cottld the People have ? The truth of the Reaolu tion'may be obvious, but when fundamental princi . ples are attacked, it became necessary to declarethem. The People possessed a security in the vigilance•of their RepresentatiVes, but under the operation of such a pledge, many erroneous m e a sures m i ght be adopted which Parliament could not' afterwards re. medy, and many good measures be omitted which Parliament could not afterwards supply. What Se l . curity had- the Country that measures would not be entered into ignorantly, perversely, and blindly, but the confidence that theatfiirs of the Government were to be carried on by Ministers of virtue pnd tegrity ? The oath of secrecy kept their particular • motives and. condu6t from view. Sir Edward Coke had said, that, in the quaint language of the times, it .was the wish of one of the greatest. tyrants that had-ever sat upon the Throne of England, Henry V 41,. that his Privy Councillors shOuld leave all si mulation and dissimulation to the. perter's lodge,. when they came to Council. In his remark upon - this, he had said that the truth and the whole truth alone should reach the Royal ear. But what was to be the security of the. People of this Country, if the 46trines now broached should be established. The country and the P ar li ament m i g h t say _ to them selves, that his Majesty's Miniiters were carrying • on their measures for reasons knowo to them, but which they could not divulge consistently With their . oaths as Privy Councillors.—What, however, would • be the fad Ministers might .1:1ke doing that which they knew to be wrong, and omitting that Which they knew to be right,, because, by their pledge, they would have tied up their hands and their tongues, and not be in possession of the means of .;fulfilling their. duty, or complying with tlieir oaths. On this ground he supported the Resolution. lf 'such a do6fr4Je as that of the pledge requiled were to• be allowed to pass, or to be sanctioned, the Con stitution would be at an . e n d. Mi n i sters m i ght b e 'filen of rant And talets, but by signing *Lich a ' pledge, they would rcelgii their duty es he'eest Councillors of the Crown ; and if the House were to sit silent on i such a question, it would abandoh that Constitution which t was its pride, its duty ; and its glory to maintain', to preserve, and to defend. The question was then put from the ChaireWhetf General CRAWFURD rose, and declared hiinself particularly anxious to explain the motives by which • his tote would be influenced. It was impossible to discuSi the - Motion separately from the nieasnre that was the cause of the reerioVal.Of ':hiS Majesty's late. Mini4ers, because that removal had led to the pre• sent Motion. I- e should not, however, enter into .any discussioricifThe Catholic Question, as manyfar . more competentehanhirn would corilder that .pert • of the subje&. He should confine himself to the present Motion, and that part 'Of the conduct of his Majesty's late Ministers, which insidiously led' - to ferce'his Majesty's conscienee. 'With respect to the scruples in his Majesty's tireeSt, - oh the Catholic `Question, they were long lcuPern to rest- . on cOn scientieus groultds, both in a religious andeonstitti;• tional sense. , His doubts existed as Well to the latitude in which . his Coronation Oath was to be understood, as the influence it,may 'have upon the welfare and liberties of the Enipire. Any Measure • infringing upon these scruples should not have been brought forward, but under-an irresistible necessity. Care shcitild be-taken that the extreme urgency ex isted. - It behoved his Majesty's. Ministers' to enter in the fullest possible manner into all its various' views and bearings, and to render all misconception: ' or misunderstanding impossible; on 'the part of the , • Crown. If in the, progress of the -measure any fur- . ther extension may have been deemed' necessary, the same minute explanation ought to have been resorted to, in order to prevent the possibility of a misconception on the Royal mind, 'He proposed then briefly to notice, so far as a respeEtfuLregard to the : time of the House would permit,. how far the conduct of Majesty's late Ministers had been ► strktly governed by these principles. They had stated to the House that their measure had been bi•ought forward for the purpose.of allaying the fere tents in Ireland, and that his Majesty's approba tion of the Measure had been respectfully solicited. Much had been said of the mischief, the - absurdity, the inconvenience, and the anomaly, that the Irish Aet of 1793 did not extend to this country. But no case of inconvenience or of mischief had been made out, so that, though the anomaly had so long ex isted, as no practical inconvenience -bad been felt, the mischief was merely speculative. After a long and earnest discussion, his. Majesty at length had given a reluetant assent. Yet his reluetance,had not .1 arisen from any. disinclination on the part of his Ma ,jesty to do justice to any class of his subjects, or to consult the happiness of his people,. but from the, little appearance of necessity there was.for the mea-; sure, and the apprehension of the practical mischiefs it would give rise to, by leading to claims'. and de- , mands which he should be compelled to resist. The next stage of the business, the Hon ,General observed, • , was the dispatches to the 'Lord. Lieutenant of Ire, land, in which, if•in any other Case, the greatest ac curacy should have been observed, so as to confine the terms of the dispatch to the extent,of his Majes ty's consent; the consent of his ,Majesty was, limit-, ed, the 'contents of the dispatch was unlimited. He could not conceive how such _an inacctil , cy could have been committed by.persons of such ability, who, were •so well versed in business. The notice of the. Noble Lord ; stated the measure as opening certain commissions to the Catholics; and this- 2 wes con formable to his Majesty's consent,. aukto.the Irish Aa,:of 1793. He left the House ; to determine what,.had been the.,eause of the_ ditference. between this 'notice and the dispatch, -Even the• Catholics could not believe that his Majesty had consented to ' the' full extent , of .the dispatch, When a commu nication 'had come over on the subject,. the Cabinet 'minute, to•which it had given rise, was 'sent down' to his Majesty iii 'the ordinary way,,, without any i, comment e to sltes, its nature, though the case was then entirely-new, If it was necessaryOn Ministers to explain the alteration in the first instance; it • was . ten thousand times owe necessary then. The King, either had not considered, the dispatch, or -withheld all observation upon it till.he shetele.l have a . personal interview with his Servants. When. his Majesty came next to town, the",tirst communication of the ,new. 'Measureeeas made to him, and he t'hen signifie.d.his unqUalitied disapprobation of it. The neeasere . Was, howeveie brought foi ward under an impression that his Majesty had not withdrawn his original' cement, and•on his coming to town,in a few days, his Mrtjety, found himself under a necessity of taking those rnea. ; sure, Which. he bad delayed as long: as possible. • He never exercised any, influence- over any.one of his Ministers as individual Members of his Cabinet. He knows the• Constitution too well to do so. He told them „they should.either, withdrew: their coun teeance. from the measure, or themselves from hie councils, A,deliberation ensued, in which his Ma , jesty never retracted his original-. consent ; .he was still ready. to abide by That, but the,Alinisters found it impossible to modify the Bill, and give it up alto- , gether. , Here the matter might have rested, But no; they brought. forward their stipulations—sti puletiens which his Majesty could not constitution ally agree, to. That part o the stipulations respeet ing their right to, advise his, Majesty from time to 1 -, time upon this subject remained, entire, though the' Bill had been withdrawn; .but, that, part which claimed a right for Ministers to come down, clothed 'with their ministerial character, and support the Ca- tholic Petition.. required what.his Majesty could trot ' do, It struck at that Royal branch of the Preroga tive,-which, though wisely given, ought to be sel dom exercised ; be meant the negative on the ads of the other branches of the Legislature, This Pre rogative had 4 - oneinto disuse from the K.,ing's Mi . 'sisters never countenancing any measure in that house to which his Majesty. would. not assent, and this put an end to the cdutests between the Crown Mr. HALL, in- the- feW words he had to say, , proposed to follow the-exemple of the Hon: Gene ral, by abstaining from any discussion of the merits Of the Catholic Bill. ThOugh he • had'supportedthat Bill, he thought the consideration - of it whollyirre. levent to. the present question. • He- was sorry his Majesty's late. 'Ministers lad consented to withdraw ite•bet that Bill did not appear to him to haVe any thing to do with their removal from office. It was 'their refusal to give a pledge not to advise his Ma jesty upon -that sebjed• that had caused their re :move' ; and if they had signed that pledge, there was no disgrace and reproach which they would not have-merited.. Such a pledgowOuld have made the -King - absolute, andeemoved the responsibility of his 'Ministers. He approved of the measures of the late Ministers, and • sincerely regretted their removal' • from office ; but that regret might perhaps be lighter if they had been succeeded .by men of ta lents and abilities. But were not their successors the dregs of a disgraced Administration ? Were they not the-persons who had had the seals of office tier a few hours, on a former occasion, in their possession, and carried them • back again in ecknowledginent of their own imbecility ? He wished :the House to consider-what might be :the consequence pf their Administration to Ireland. If they continued to ad upOn the principles of-the system upon which they had Come-in, their measures would lead to a separa. jinn - cifthetwo 'couotries, Such would be the - con- SetpeedeeS of the Admiuistration of those Who pro. 'fesse.d to come into office as the supporters of th n ' constitutional Prerogatives of the Crown, and the existing t stablishments in Church and State. • Mt. WHITSHED KEENE contended . that • was incompatible with the compad which placed . the House: Ofe Brunswick on the Throne,for his Majesty to demand such a pledge from-his Minis. ters; and 'that it would have been . unconstitutional in the late Ministers to have subscribed it. The , Hon. Gentleman urged a variety Of,other arguments iresupport oftthenesohition. • - • - . Mr: .IPALTON -objedecl to the Motion -on two greencis ; - the, one, - the . words in which it 'was cotichede the- other, the line , of :argument which 'the' Hon. Seconder. had taken. He could not corn , plinient the Hon. Gentletnan on • Iris discretion in juitiOtieg, that altherigh • Ministers ought not to .consider' themselves- as under 'the-contrepl of the, King, they Aught' -te consider themselves as under the iconfroul of the. ffhile Bo?is.ot Ireland. The Hon.'Gentleman by whom the Motion had been-se , epteled seemed to ground his support on 'the idea, that when Noble-Lorda-and Gentlemen Were. called ' to-tire councils. Of his-Majesty, they had no power to retreat,- but must-continue, in office whether -they would or not. Another point on which he opposed' the Motion was, that it was . incompatible wiiii the wisdom of the House -to entertain- the diSeussion of any ebstrea . propesitiore whatever. Many abstra& propositions- Might be considered :incontrovertible ; except When,-they were applied to new cases e aud.aurely, no case could be. more new, than that an Administration shotdd lend its weight in Per, 'lament to-measures which bad s pot only .not re eiVed the concuerence . i.)f the King, het to which .bie-Mejesty had expressed an absolute repugnance., .He would suppose -a plain an pessible case--he woeld suppose .that many. years ago Some Hunours • able Gentleman had moved an abstrad resolution, that.iu any. way le restrain the commerce of his' Ma, jesty's-subjeas would be injurious to the comae, and that it was the duty of Parliament to prevent such an attempt. Snob 'a proposition would have been good absteadedly considered, and yet .had _ not the ,Legislature recently restrained and gaps lished one of the most important branches of come merce ? No abstract proposition wits mere true, than that ,it was highly criminal in subjects to4Lke up arms against the ,Soverein.—But suppose that . another King James the'Secorel wereeo artse, would they nut be justified in-doing so ?- 7 -Ahy Uncoestite. tional measure of - the King to restore Popery I.4etild justify what would ktLrwise be. unjustifiable. Sup posing that the Kieg might hale Ministers, who, by advising that Papists (acknewledging the power . of a Foreign Potentate) should be admitted to the. highest Offices of the State, should tacitly declaie I the immediate ancestors of the King usurpers, sere, ~.