The Sun. — London, England, 1802-04-28 00:00:00

1 1, i Sir RoB pRT PEt r. explained. Lard SHEFFIELD said, he did not objeel to the principle of this Bill, as far as it related to Im_ Port, the D uty would fall on-consumption, or might cotnpensated on Exportation, hut he was by no means satisfied by the arguments - which had been ur ged in f avour of other tarts of the Bill. In re aed to the exempt i on of Ireland from the Duties on rl'°rt, Exp ort, and Tonnage, he had not heard any gume nt that satisfied him. He believed there was no t a man in that: House who more heartily wished the a dvantage of Ireland, but he should think him self 1 • - "ghlY unjustifiable if he promoted so partial a measur e as that in question, which was not neces sorY to Ireland —that Country had many local and Other ti ad vantages, and these Duties, if la id only on of'is Country, must operate as a Bounty in favour ° d r . the Shipping and IVlanufaClures of Ireland, and in favo ur of those of Great Britain. It had been ur g ed that Scotl an d, on t h e Union and since, h a d be en indulged with particular exemptions, but they i r r ejated Only to internal consumption, and arose „ . " - "I the inf er i or i ty o f c li mate . The exemptio ns Propo se d a Tea external Commerce, and go Wnit e l y beyond what seems to he intended.__ the are told that Ireland is not to be taxed in Ire tame proportion as Great Britain, to which re entirely agreed hut taxes which operate as h e ' gui , ati °°s or S c check to external commerce _must t . k "e sam e in both ountries, otherwise Union "eWn„, t PrOve a ruinous bargain to Great Britain. p ar t e ;'-onvoy Tax cannot .in any degree be c‘rn ed to that now proposed. It was not intend /. 1 4 ' exis t ext ept during . the war, wh en th e tra d e of t 0 world passed through this Country, an d no . 1 , - er shi rr i ng w as sa f e . Th e case i s now w id e l y erer o , a great proportion of our shipping and st arnen ar e discharged from their several services, and there never was a moment when it was more necessary toencourage them. He deeply regretted the dereliaion which on so many occasions took place in respect to that Navigation System which has been the foundation of our safety, power, and eo ° mmerce. He cou ld not approve t h e Bi l l as i t __‘v stood as an experimental measure, he was s t l l l re- it would p rove t h e worst o f prece d ents , an d ahem --- pt to withdraw it, odious and difficult. s aid he should in the proper stage of the busi. toi l Propose that the whole of the sum intended ri n ' e tv r aised on the Tonnagc . should be added to the .°n Import. n i i, T Or d CASTLEREAGH said, that this measure '' )t. be considered either as a measure of corn_ io lert reg u l at i on , or o f taxat i on . Wi t h re _ w le 'l A to the observations of the Hon. Baronet, it th °4l d be rec o llected that the system alluded to by A Mon. B aronet would on l y last, according to the A c L'of Union, for twenty years; but not to go so a ' t as that p er i o d, t h ere was no necessity for making ti nY disti n Eti on b etwyen.t h e two _ countr i es, so f ar as Os could b e cons id ere d as, a commerc i al regulat i on. could not see, however, that it was necessary to ext end this tax to Ireland. Great Ilritain found it IZPedient., io consequence of the expences incurred - the late war, to have recourse to a cer ta in tax ; 1 : 1 ( 1 the Chancellor of the Exchequer chose that he considered as the least produCtive of evil. ut if the burdens of Ireland - were not co-extensive Irtth those ofGreat Britain, it was nor just to call upon ntl e land to adopt the same system oftaxgtion. Ireland i f g l lt riot to be c a ll e d upon t o con t r ib ute u o t he tax , i n she Could raise the supplies in another mode, and ti a mode more convenient to herself. This ques_ °r) , therefore, came forward more as Wiquestion of ti cone than of commercial regulation. Whatever •t a l ght be the tendency of the argument of the Hon. ed r t 6 „ le , r , as supposing that a superiority was intend_ L'e given :o Ireland by the Articles of Union, ae - n - A r esPeCt _to manufactures, yet it was evident, en c. i r : i rl to the statement of his . Hon. Friend (Mr. 4.11, - ' l ')..that the Cot ton MAnufadures of this Coon -1,11:0ere imported into Ireland . to the amount of spi t ; °pl. annually, and this import took place in dud e : 4 ; what might be considered as prohibitory wms it to be supposed then that Ireland t ut " e nter into a competition with the Manufac. txt-8 ( *this Co untr y..? O n e, gr eat objection to the, b e „ * ,,un of this tax to Ireland was, that it would k,„;re tl " i noperative resource. The House would be. bt t the duty. would not apply to the Trad e fo r -7ten Great Britain and Ireland, but only-to the i t i.. l gn trade of Ireland, which was not above or tenth of the foreign trade of Great Britain tati er efote, though this tax would be here an ope_ tesoeresource, it would be in Ireland an inoperative to t h ur e ce ) and would be at the same time injurious the t rade of that country.. It had been said that 14„ Trade o f I reland might, and would, very proba. e i t ) h t taterially i ncrease; y.et i t s h ou ld b e recollea u.t it wo u ld b e i n t h e power o f t h e H ouse, at th e tl nter. to extend the tax to Ireland, whenever illeY.thought i t exped i ent., He was convinced that thi s In terest of Ireland would not be forgotten_ on di s uc casion, as . t h e H ouse h a d invariably shewn a , f r( tsi tion to adopt e v e r y commerc i a l regu l at i on tie trusted Ireland was likely t o derive• benefit. 11 a , -he had said enough to satisfy the Hon. ° net that this tax ought mot to be extended to Ir e d• EFFTELD explained. le tvat : "'• DUNDAS rose merely to, make an ob- G eno l .", in consequence of what fell from an Han. Tax w eu : a , u , (Gen. GAs . co.y . NE), who said, that this tot the ds tounded upon a new principle. This was ; otia e ' ease, because at the time of the Union with • of s e ri d, it was Stipulated that the Land Tax "and should be but 43,0001. when that of i was 2,0 0,0001._ With regard also to E in. Scotla n d t h e Duty was 4s. 6d. when g lan d it was los. .6d. There was also a R... tr ial 'difference its the duty upon Malt, for in th e r n d " was only half what it was in England. infe r i_ eas nn assigned 'for this difference was, the e ourier ur quality of the Barley in Scotland—but his S to Yillen did not confine themselves to the use of only te l h i. E i rleY,:.but used English Barley, and paid the-D ut , / upon the I\ilalt. Se was aware thi s ; should not please them much by making d ur , on, but he conceived himself bound I) tO mak e - tity lt• In consequence of the late h e P " Malt, which applied equally to Scotland, pa ttor ~eQtyed innumerable applieationS from that to theta ' tue Country upon the subjed ; but his answer lunge wasgh'' 4 ' , You have enjoyed this privilege no t] aud now you ought to bear your bur. I '' dens equally with the rest of your fellow subjeas." It was therefore evident that the Hon; Gentleman was not correct when he said this was a new priociple. Lord SH EPZI E L D explained. Mr. BURDON said, he wished the Noble Lord (CAsTatitaAcii, had been right when he said, that this Tax would not be felt as a burden in this Country : he was afraid it would be felt as a _most serious one. It has been said that the Merchants had borne the Convoy Tax with cheerfulnesc, but that perhaps was a strange reason why they should be exempted from it when the Peace came. He was sorry to be under the necessity of opposing the SPEAKER leaving the Chair upon this question, but he could not help opposing this measure, particularly as far as it related to the Duty upon Tonnage. It had been said that this was merely an experimental measure ; but he was sure, his Constituents would be very glad, if this experiment was not made. This Duty upon "Tonnage would be felt peculiarly heavy in the Eastern Ports of this Country, because the Ships from these Ports made, in the course of the year, a great number of very short voyages. Mr. DENT said, he was aware, that if the Mi nister were to listen . to every objedion that was made to a 'Tax, that we should have no Tax at all. It was true,. that the Merchants had paid this Tax very cheerfully ; hut it was from a full understand ing, that it would be taken off immediately upon the conclusion of Peace. But when the House was about to lay such a burden upon our Commerce, they ought to consider, that most of our Manufac_ tures were forbidden in France ; and information had recently been received, that a Ship laden with British Manufadures, had lately been obliged . to leave one of the French PorLi. He believed, that France had suffered so much by the Commercial Treaty of 1786, that she was not willing to make an other Commercial Treaty. , Indeed, it was generally understood that France had declared her unwilling ness to enter into any Commercial Treaty with this Country, and - upon this subject he wished to apply to the Nobly Lord opposite to him (HAWK ESB URY ). It had been said, that the only objection to this Tax being extended to Ireland, was, that it would be wholly unproductive; if that was the case it could not be oppressive upon the com.nerce of that country, if it was made liable to this Tax. As to what had been said about the increase of shipping since the year 1[792, he did not think that was a conclusive argument, because since that time we had been in a state of war, and had almost the whole trade of the world ; but now that Peace was restored, we should have many rivals in trade. Lord- HAWKESBURY said, that the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had called upon him so personally, that he hoped the House would indulge him for a few moments. He had been supposed to say, that Commercial Treaties were of no use : ; that was not the language he had used. He had certainly said, that in many points of view they were not so beneficial as they were supposed to be ; but at the same time he had admitted, that in many other views of the subject, they were ex tremely. beneficial. He was ready still to contend, that they were not so advantageous as they were generally imagined to be, and that the success of Trade depended much more upon Capital, Confi dence, and Industry. He could prove, if it were necessary, the truth of this Proposition, by a re ference to 'the Commerce of this Country upon for mer occasions : during the= last Peace, we had no Commercial Treaty with Holland, nor with Prussia. - —lf Gentlemen would compare the' Trade of this Country with those two Powers, particularly with the former, with our Trade with' France, it would be found, that our Trade with France was corn- Taratively smaller. With regard to the sup -posed refusal of France to enter into any Com 'mercial. Treaty with this Country, he begged to state to the Honourable Gentleman, that it would have"" been' impossible to have renewed -the old COmmercial Treaty with France that sub sisted before the War. In the first place, many circumstances, had occurred in France which might have induced them to objet} to renew that Corn mercial Treaty ; but even if that were not the case,, there were objections on our side : the many regu_ iations which had been imposed in this Country, particularly with regard to Wine, must render it impossible that that Treaty could , be renewed in the same form ; besides, there were other objections to it of a decisive nature. That Treaty could not be renewed without our giving up a system which he hoped never would be abandoned, he meant the . Alien Laws. Another consequence of our renew_ ing that Treity, would be, that we must acknow ledge the principles of the Armed Neutrality, at least as far as related to France. It was true that our giving up that 'principle with regard to France, was no reason for giving it up to other Countries. Yet after the Confederacy which had been formed against us this War, and the principles asserted by the Powers composing that Confederacy ; he was of opinion, that we ought to adhere to our old principles, and not to concede it to arty Power whatever. The Hon. Gentleman and the House must see, that it was impossible to haie renewed the former Commercial Treaty with France. He was sure that any person who knew the disadvantages that must attend a protrad ed Negotiation, must be sensible of the inconve niences that must result from a long Negotiation, for the purpose of establishing a new Commercial Treaty. It was natural that the Government of France, after such a Revolution as that Country had experienced, must wish for time to consider upon what footing the Trade of the two Countries ought to be placed, before they entered into any Commercial arrangements : and, he believed, that those who were the best acquainted with the Com mercial Interest of this Country, would think that it .would have been better not, to have • suspended the Negotiation, in order- to have arranged a Treaty of Commerce. It T undoubtedly was much more beneficial to this coddtry to leave that as a matter for subsequent arrangettittit. This was the ground upon whiCh the presentqUestionliow rested, and not. , upon any indisposition communi cated by France to enter into such a Treaty. Sir 1?. MILBANKE said a few words, which we did, -not : distinaly, hear, upon the injury which would be sustained by, our Shipping, ,i 1 this . tax was adopted,, li Mir....lidermrn CURTIS said, nLjt.ift ioti" • that he kia to this bill was, that it Would not beai equally upon the two countries. He confessed he was noralarmed for out 2 Trade nor for our Shipping interw, though he was a considerable shipowner ; btit he did not approve of that part of the bill which I,,,went to exempt Irelareti.. Dr. LAWR . ENCE said, there were many subjects touched, ❑pon which he Shou ld reserve his sentiments till a future occasion, particularly what had fallen from a Noble Lord, upon the subject of Commercial Treaties. He was of opinion, that before the House went into a Committee upon. this Bill, the subject ought again to be referred to a Committee of .Ways and Means, because there were many alterations which he thought it would be necessary to make, in the rate of the Duties, which could not consist ently he done in a Committee upon this Bill. The arguments which had been advanced to she w, that Ireland ought to be exempted from this Tax, ap_ peared to him by no means conclusive, because this could not be considered Merely as a measure of Taxation ; it certainly was a Commercial Regula tion. He then entered into an examination of the efFeCl which this Tax would have upon our own Trade, and contended,. that in many instances, it would operate most disadvantageously. He alluded particularly to the Duty upon Naval Stores, which, he contended, was very injudicious, and would be produClive of great injury to this; Country. Jr had been contended, that the Convoy Tax had been cheerfully submitted to ; but he begged to ask the House to consider, how different the situation of the Country was now from the period when that Tax was laid on, particularly from the great and unparalleled increase of the Funded Debt in the present Sessions. This Tax would be more severely felt in this Country, because there would be no such Tax in other Countries, and consequently it would add to the difficulties we should have to contend with before we could meet our Rivals in foreign markets. It had been admitted that during the Ne_ gotiation there had been a stagnation of trade ; but hopes had always been held out, that as soon as the Peace was arranged, Commerce would again revive. He had received information from a number of ma nufaCturers, that they had been completely disap pointed in their hopes that their business would re vive when the Definitive Treaty was signed. This was called an experiment. We had lately made an experiment of Peace, and had made great sa crifices to obtain it ; but he conceived this was a subject upon which no experiment ought to be made, because if it failed, the Country might feel the efFeCts of it for centuries. Lord CASTL E R EACH explained. Mr. LASCELLES spoke in a very low tone of voice, hut we believe in fAvour of a reduthon of the Duty upon Tonnage. Mr. ALEXANDER said, that after the very able manner in which this subjeet had been discussed, he would not occupy the time of the House in ar guing upon, the efFeil which this Tax would have upon our foreign trade. With regard to that part of the question which related to Ireland, it had been so fully and so ably treated by his Right Honour able Friend, (Mr. CoRRY) that it was unnecessary for him to enter into any general observations upon the subject : he wished merely to state, that there could bt: no question of competition of shipping between England and Ireland, though there might be between Ireland and other countries, particularly America. Mr. WILBERFORCE said, he always felt re ludant in rising to oppose any measure in the nature of Tax, unless upon the strongest grounds ; but he could not avoid making some observation upon the Bill now before the House. It was undoubtedly true, that during the War the Shipping of this Country had very considerably increased ; but it should be recollected, that the War furnished em ployment for a great number of ships, particu larly for the Transport Service, and consequently enabled the Owners to bear this Tax much better than they could in a time of Peace. He felt himself placed in , a situation of some difficulty, from the forms of the House, because by those forms it was not possible to increase any of these Duties without recurring to the Committee of Ways and Means. He was convinced - that the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had • fully considered this subjed before it was brought forward—he was unwilling • to propose any general dedudion from the amount of the Tax, but he wished to propose to reduce the Duty in some eases, and to increase it in others, so as to make the produce the same. With regard to that part of the question which 'related to the Duty upon Tonnage, he thought the length and number of voyages made by one vessel in the course of a year ought to be taken into considera tion, because a vessel going from the Eastern Coast of England to Holland, would perhaps make six voyages in the course of a year, and would have to pay the Duty six times over, while a vessel to the West Indies or America, would only pay the Duty once. It was upon this part of the subjea only that he felt any difficulty. On the one hand he did not like to oppose the SPEAKER'S leaving the Chair, and on the other hand he did not like to propose to diminish any of the Duties, when, by the forms of the House he was prevented from pro posing an increase upon other articles. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, perhaps it would be better for the Hon. Gentleman to wait the decision of the Committee upon this Bill, because if he succeeded in opposing the SPEAKER'S leaving the Chair, and that the House went into a CoMmittee of Ways and Means to increase the Duties upon some of the articles, it might happen, that after wards in.the Committee upon this Bill, it might not be thought expedient to diminish the Duties, as th e Hon. Gentleman meant to propose. It would per - . - haps be better for the Hon. Gentleman to wait to see if, in the Committee upon_ this Bill, any of the Du ties were diminished, before heproposed.going into a Committee of Ways and Means,to make up the deficiency, by increasing the ;Duties upon other articles. He thought this observation applied to the objections of other Gentlemen to the SPEAKER leaving the Chair, when these objedions might be obviated when the Bill was in a Comm;tiee. Mr. BURDON spoke shortly in explan;Hon, and stated, that he .should vote for leaving the Chair. G,eneral GAcorric rose to explain, but proceed. in such a Tl 7 as 'uce several Ge :o call Lim 10 Order ; on I,v!,i, SprAKE a interkred, and stated the rule to be observc,i on such accasion3., General GASCOY NE proceeded, and repeated wish, that th:‘ propositions should be referred to the Committee of Ways and i\elcans, in order that the duties may he exrendtd to Ireland: Mr. 37 , ..FEFRY (of Poole), seemed to enter tain a similar sentiment, and adverted to the in_ crease of Irish shipping the cheapness of provi sions, and low wages of labour in that Country, as reasons for extending the duties. late 0-uestion was then loudly called for, on which the strangers were ordered to '.vithdry,... No division however took place, but the Gallery was kept shut for some time. On our le-adalis!,ll) we found the House in a Committee, and the seve ral Clauses and provisions of the Bill under discus sion. beveral amendments and alteratio:v proposed by Mr. VANATTART were, after a few (,)serv:!tio•!s from Lord SEIEFFIELO, Mr. S. l'Honr,roem, Ge ner.al Giv.coYNE, and other Gentlemen, agreed to by the Commi Ace. Mr. S. I'HOR.V.FOI , 7 took occas;on to advert to what h:td been said in the course of the Debate., upon the • distinctions which should be in LimeNs made in the Bill, between voyages to Countries contiguous to Great Brit,iin, tl;ose on the Mediterranean, its 14 1 ci1 it i to the tr: c .f In - dies and America, and expre‘zsed his o-,inion that" some amondluent should be introduced to, the pro posed effea. Gencral GASCOYNE took occasion to observe, that certain vessels were liable to the duties, ‘,vhiet, it was never intended to include. We un(lerstoo.l the lion. General to allude to vessels employed in certain branches of the fishery, and which he ob served, had been always considered as foreign . clearances. The CHANCELLOR of the EXri E QT.I E R observed, that in his opinion it was but equitable, that vessels of the description alluded to, should be exempted altogether. They should he considered as coasters, though this did not regularly appear by the general .prailice of those vessels, as they were nut entered from one port to another. Mr. VANS ITT ART made some observations upon the distinCtions which were urged as proper to be made between ships performing long voyages, and those made to ports in neighbouring Countries; the difficulties of the regulations proposed by those Hon. Gentlemen were much greater than they seemed to imagine. He principally referred to the Commercial Treaty with America, which provided that no higher duties should be laid on !heir vessels than the lowest exacted from other Nations. This consideration precluded the laying a greater duty on an American vessel from America than on a Dutch ship from Holland. Another consideration against the intended amendment was, that the com parative small expences of short voyages, as between Great Britain and Rolland, France 'and Flanders, and the kind of vessels employed, amply compensat ed for the greater rate of duty exacted, which, as far as it had been ;lied, he idledged produced no material degree of prattleal inconvenience. He also observed, that the Anwricans were now, in a great degree, become the carriers from the West Indies. • Mr WILBERFORCE made some additional ob. servations on distinctions which should be made ha tween Vessels performing slitirt and. distant voy ages, and particularly adverted to the expences in curred from the nature of voyages in the Baltic - trade. He dwelt upon the point, that the principle upon which the amendment proceeded, was clearly recognized in the Bill, which made a dislinCtion in the rates of vessels sailing as far as the Cape of Good Hope, beyond that limit, and those employed in shorter voyages, and so on. He also expressed his disapprobation of the ground which the supporters of the Bill assumed as a favourable argument, that be cause under the circumstances in which the Country a few years or even months ago was placed, the Peo ple cheerfully acquiesced in payment of all these burdens which were necessarily imposed, _ that the same cheerfulness and acquiescence was to be expca ed under different circumstances—and, in a period of Peace, when it might be considered 'more as Et''' regulation of standing policy, arguments drawi l / 2 : from the former 'willingness were thercfore applied in the present instance.—Under these im-' pressions, he was inclined to press an Amendment, which, as we could collect, was to the following purport : " That the Duties imposed upon Vessels sailing to ports Southward of the Nlze of Norway, and Northward of Cape Finistetre, be reduced to 6d. per ton." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER oh_ served, that he agreed with his 'Hon. Friend that no advantage ()tight to be taken of the cheerfulness ' with which the Duties were acquiesced in during the War. With resped to what his Hon. Friend had said, in regard to the acquiescence in the Duty a few months ago, from the general pressure of cit... cumstances, - he had :to observe, that though the change which had since taken place was certainly a fortunate one, .yet it was not so great as to release the House from the necessity of providing for the in.. dispensable calls of the Public Service, or even to warp its 'good sense from clearly perceiving the propriety as well as necessity of raising the Sup plies, and meeting, in a proper manner,. the demands of the Service of the Country.--However; with re.. sped to the particular measure under. discussion, be said, that he had minutely considered the subjed, and after giving as much attention to it as he pos., sibly could, he - was unable to devise any less excep tionable adequate means than those now under con.. sideration.—But, though he conceded that.no advan tage should be taken of the spirit manifested.by th e Country during the War, yet he must observe, that it had not the least bearing on the proposition then before the Committee, because, notwithstanding the rates.prescribed by the Convoy Att were cheat_ fully acquiesced in, it was by no means inconsistent with that spirit, that objections should be made to the distribution of those rates, which ,were then laid on precisely in a similar manner with tho s e now proposed) therefore, if the objection was valid. now, it was certainly valid in the petiods luded to.—Yet 'such an objection was never and he called upon 'Gentlemen to omit 6u.: where anrpradistal inconNaience had arisen.