The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-30 00:00:00

from the Throne, expressed by ,its condua a desire to take the subjeft into full consideration, by the appointment of a Committee, which Committee had examined the subjea ; they had all the Ac counts before them—they understood the Accounts thorouglity—they had no authority to deliver any opinibn upon the subjett—they had made no obl servations except such as were necessary to assist the Membersof „the House to comprehend the whole of the vast variety of complicated AccoiMts of Aieh the Report was composed. This led• him to think of what he had said early in his observations before the Committee, which was, that ,some things he found in that Report were 'miters - of regret, for it would produce a con siderable addition to the burthens of the People, if the House should adopt that which he should have the honour of proposing to the Committee. But that which gave him sarisfaftion was, that there was no imputation of Mismanagement in• the course of the application of tliis Civil List Revenue.—Nor was there an instance of Corruption, nor any pro fusion in the application : to illustrate this by fad, he should refer to some parts of the Report of the Committee, containing information most justly laid before the House. . In page 66, of the Report, com paring the Charges of the Civil List Establishment of Increase and Decrease of Charges, upon, an ave rage of . 16 years, from the sth of January, 1786, to the sth of January. last, the account stood thus ; INCREASE. DECREASE On an Average of Sixteen ) . ears Z . • 4; 61 3 12 11i Ist Class -ad 4th -- • stia • t)th • 701 Sth - • - - - - - —Occasional Payments - 58,500 3 Sl— 186 14 9 8,1p2 14 94 -- 2 4,747 .11 - - too 7 ; - 7, 1 5 6 3 Pi - 8,109 , 8 3 14 3 63 Z• 95,964 2 21 -. 1 . 5,560 17 51 Deduit Decrease 15,560 17 SA. Net Increase - 80,403 4 84 Now he would ask the Committee, whether he was, or was not justified in saying what he did in setting out, that there was matter for the surprize of the Committee ? He would ask the Committee, whether they thought that any individual who was obliged to maintain any respetiability in society, could keep the rank be held without some enlarg .ment of his expenditure ?• He would apply this to the experience of the Committee as to what happened in the last sixteen years, desiring the Committee, at the same time, to bear in mind. that much of the Charges which were taken into the latter part of the computation, happened during the War. Be was sure the excess was readily ac counted for. He begged however to have it un derstood, that he did not impute the Increase in the Expenditure to the War, merely as War, but he would rather have it considered that the increase took place during a period of • War, not that, the War was the cause of the Increase ; for, during that time, we had met three years of Scarcity.--Many articles of His Majesty's Household had indeed been advanced . in consequence of the War, as in-the ordinary case of Taxes. That was the case with respel to Wine, and some other articles in his Majesty's Household, and the expend of which was defray eat out of the Civil List, so that the cireumst of the times considered, the -excess upon the Civil List was not only matter - - Of se tisfailion, but astonishment it was 'not more. b....N0r was that the only feeling, for it was also matter of regret and shame regret that there should have been any embarrassment upon the Civil List ; and shame that the Household should have suffered in such a way, -the incon veniences which it did suffer, and which no clout); were grievous to many individuals. He was. fully :aware there were many parts of this Account :which might require explanation, but not from those whose attention had been turned particularly to the subject. Many parts, however, might re ,quire minute explanation at some other time, but it : was not his intention to go at present minutely over the Articles. There were some sums ad_ Nanced by Her Majesty for the support of the younger branches of the Royal Family, and con sidering all the circumstances, it was matter of astonishment that the whole amount of the Debt incurred by Her Majesty on account of the younger branches of the Royal Family was only 28,6341. — There was advanced by the-Queen- to , His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, for the support of ehe.Princess Charlotte, 21,9761. . Now considering ,the manner in which the means of His Royal High ness were limited, and how he was restrided by : the appropriation of so considerable a pert of his income to the liquidation of his debts, it was ,not reasonable that this sum should be defelyed by His Royal Highness, nor was it just that the sum should be taken out of His Majesty's Civil List Revenue. The next head of the Report to which he had occasion to refer, was in.pages A 9 and eo, under the title Of Pensions.:—Upon this subjett he should not enter ,upon any minute explanations, for that he would leave to others who, were near him, and' who would do it correftly. [Here he read the sums total of the items under the titles of increase and decrease of Pensions at Home, and to Ministers at Foreign Courts, for the lest sixteen' years.] Upon the Pensions at Home there was an uniform decrease, amounting to 175,7901. ; upon those to Foreign Ministers there was an 'increase of 92,5231. Upon the subjea of 'Compensation for the loss of Offices, Ste. the :total of the de crease for the same period was i 15,50,21., so very considerable was the decrease in this. particular-.--- There was a sum of 7cool, which the Committee would not regret ; it was .for different sums, ad vanced to carry on the Congress at Amiens. He apprehended also, that the sums advanced to the difrerent branches of the Royal Family, would meet the approbation of xhc Committee. • They : were atdvenced under the pressure of difficulty ) , such as he conceived to be the duty of e Minister to support .them under, rather than that they should be - .sub-' ,jedtcci to .the great inconveniences. which must .have resulted if the sums had not been advanced out of the Civil List, and for which, its his opinion, allele: ought long ago to have been some provision made ; and this expenditure should be made an Esta blishment upon .the Consolidated Fund, Gentlemen might have some difference : of opinion,: upon ,the 1 subjed of allowances to Ministers at Foreign Courts, but in his opinion they were all unavoidable. There was another charge which might occasion some difference of opinion, but which was, in his ' opinion, unavoidable, he meant for the expence of prosecuting persons for certain offences against the State. This - occasiooed- a considerable augmenta tion of expence.---Another article he had to notice, was •one on which he did not apprehend any difference of opinion : he meant, the expence in curred in consequence of the dispute between this Country and Neutral Nations, adjusted, as the Com mittee would recoiled that matter had been. On the subjeet of the charges of Secretaries of State, employ ment of Messetigets, &e, he should say nothing, unless particularly called upon for that: purpose. He should abstain in the satne x pianner on the subject of Law Charges. Indeed there was a considerable diffe rence of opinion upon the subject of the meaning of that which was to be the rule of action in these particulars. He meant Mr. Burke's Bill. That Bill was worded so loosely, that it was extremely , difficult, if not impossible, to 'attach to it any' pre cise or definite meaning in ,many of its parts. It was indeed said; that the whole burthen of the ar rears was to fall on the last class therein stated.--L That could not be so, for,' according tolhat Con strudion, there were many Offices to which no Sa laries whatever were annexed. He had indeed some good reasons for apprehending that the true con_ . strudion of Mr. Burke's Bill was, that - Which the practice under it required. The instances in'pradice were numerous, and precisely as they had been lately. These instances occurred in -the time of the Author of the Bill, and while he was a vigilant ohserver of the conduct of the Executive Government; and not disposed to spare' his observations in -the House of Commons, when any thing in such con_ dud appeared to hiria to be improper ; and yet -while these instances occurred, that Right Hon. Gentleman had not once observed that the spirit, of his Bill was departed from, by the pradice of Government in. these particulars. He then went over all the items of which the arrears now standing are composed, the amount of which was 990,0531. a sum which, he said, it was' impossible to contemplate without regret ; but he had stated how a large portion of it had been created ; no part of it was owing to profusion, none of it had . been corruptly - employed, and - it appeared from the Report, what a vast portion of the whole of this went to the necessary purposes of Civil Government, ; and was not at all appropriated, as some had most erroneously supposed, for His, Majesty's personal use, or for his own HousehOld E.hablishment.— Now; he would, ask any Gentleman in the Com mittee, if any there were who were dispoaed, to advert to the, amount of the present Deficiency, to compare it with those former Aids of the Civil List, to which he had adverted in the early part of his observations to the Corathittee, to compare ,the advance made in the Expenditure under,the various heads of the Report, on the subject Of the CiVil List, and then to see whether there Was to he found in any. part of the Expenditure the character of Profusion ? Had we seen any thing but what was . to be esteemed a necessary splendour or: the part of the Royal Family ? -- a :Certainly n0ne.., 77 Vie had seen one sort of abundance on the part Of of the Chief Magistrate of the .community in . which we had the happiness to live. Every virtue that belonged to that character abounded in him ; but with respell to outward splendour, the loyal feelings of the People would 'have gone much,fue. ther, if desired, than they had hitherto been called upon to do ; and he would venture to say, that the People had rather been disappointed for want of. more, than satiated with too much of that splendour. The sum advanced,for the discharge of the Arrears' of the Civil List for the Same period, in another reign, was more than, was now required. Arid he Wished to know, whether there was any reason for supposing that, although 1,400,0001. were justly granted at a former period, there ought not to. be 900,0001. granted now ? For his part, comparing the present with the former time; and that when the last aid was granted, and the unavoidable expences in the interim, of which- every individual of condi tion in this Country felt the force, in his own' and his family expences, he thought the present arrears extremely moderate, that 'it gave full proof of re markable frugality ; that the economy was very great ; for which reason he trusted there would be no opposition to the Resolution with which ,he should have the Honour of concluding. He had no hesitation in saying, that according to his opinion, the augmentation for the younger branches of the Royal Family, or advances made to them,. should not in future be chargeable on the Civil List, but on the Consolidated Fund, of which however Parlia_ ment were to judge. If the House adopted the Re solution which he should have the honour of moving, the Expence in the first instance would fall on the People ; there was, however, a circumstance to be attended to in that. particular. The COmMittee Would recoiled that he expressed a hope, on a for mer occasion, that there would be some means of a diminution of the buithena of the People by'the sale of the Crown Lands in the West Indies, St. Vin cent, &c. that was not, however, to be provided for at this moment, but might become matter for future discussion ; but he begged to be understood, as being most clearly of opinion, that without any reference to such resources as that to which he bad now hinted, and if there had been no' hope of any such resource, the payment of the present-arrears of the Civil List would be matter of unquestionable 'propriety, and such as would become the wisdom of Parliament to provide for. The aubjed. therefore of these resources from the West Indies, was fir matter for a separate and distinct 'discussion. ,The Civil List Arrears ought, in his opinion, robe paid off without taking that matter into consideration at all. He was well convinced that if there were no resources, but such as he had hinted at, .Parlia ment would find them abundant, in the • good sense, the justice and the loyalty of the People of England. Now, although it was not his intention to propose any permaneut addition now' to the yet he had no difficulty in saying it would,' in the pre sent condition of things, be impossible to maintain, without further aid, the necessary splendour of the Crown, and to support the necessary expenditure oli Royal Family : and -therefore, he hoped, that some relief would he. afforded 'to the Civil List here. after, by taking' away flora it some charges which it at present bore, and which, in Lis opinion, did not belong to it, and laying them on the Consolidated Fund. Several .heads of chatt4es now tipon the' Civil .List, and wllich Icad b'en so : Fluting -tilie War, might witli rptiipttety be Charged - on the Consolidated Fund, and w,Dich chargeS were very heaVy and enormozls on His Majesty's Civil List Revenue during the War. The account of all which should be laid before them and after, such, ac_ counts were laid beforethe House, he hoped the sub jet would be brought. forward again for discussion, for which he Should be perf&tiy ready. He thought it was unnecessary for him to trouble the Committee any further, for the present; he " was thankfill for the indulgence he had met in the course of whathe. had delivered before the •Committce, some part which were 'naturally dry and unengaging, and, he was afraid ixendered more so from the manner in Which it had been treated by.hirn. He should now Conclude with moving, " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a Sum not exceeding. 990,0531. be granted to His MAJi.STY, to discharge Arrears and Debts due and owing on the Civil List, on the ath of January, • rli6a,i'• FOX said, he did not know to whoM the Right Hon, Gentleman alluded, When he spoke of some who might- wish to curtail the splendour of royalty, but he wished to purge himself from 'any accusation of wishing to abridge . the - splendour of any part of the Royal Family, and particularly that of the Chief Magistrate;; his disposition was very opposite to such a wish.' If there was any thing in . temper and humour, he shOuld be less•likely to treat the "present question very severely, as he had been in London only four hours, and had heard two of the most pleasant pieces of news that he had heard for some time. When he stepped out of his' chaise, he was told the Definitive Treaty•had arrived, and since he had been in that House, His Majesty's Minist e er bad given notice of his intention of re pealing the Income Tax, - which probably he him self should have been instruded, on the next day, to support, the repeal of; a Tax which he considered as most.•unkist, injurious, and oppressive :_ he was, therefore disposed to be pleased.', This, -however', was not a question to be voted out of good humour ; they were to consider what was to be done, and whilst they shew,ed . theirattachment to the Throne,_ they were to consider what was due to their Consti tuents, and what was 'due to the Constitution. , thought the early - part of the Right Hon. Gentle: man's Speech did not bear much upon'the question he alluded to the history of the Civil List; which the Right Honourable Gentleman had given.--. He conceived, that prior to the :Revolution, any discussion relative to .the King's Hereditary, Revenues, or his rights of Revenue, was as lit tle to the purpose. as . any; question relative so any subject of. antient history, however remore.—sr The whole system relative to this subject had been .changed since that period : previous.to it the King -could dispose of hiss Hereditary Revenues in what ,eVer way .he pleased, without the consent of Par liament ; and were the Revenues , of our Sovereigns, prior to the Revolution, to sbe compared to the Civil List of Our present Monarch, taking into the account the .then and present value of money, - it would be as gold to silver. Eat was this Revenue appropriated for the King's individual exeences ? No . .he held - it in trust fur the Public ; it was not only Household expences that were to be defrayed out .of it, but -the expences of the Nation, and of the general well-being and defence Of the Country. ; It was true that extraordinary expences were met by extraordinary supplies; but he-was bound to protest his Subjeds out of its produce. It was not worth. while to discuss this subject any further, but as by the system-adopted- subsequent -to the Revolution, the Civil List warthe same in Peace as in War, and Parliament provided for the expences of the Nation, it would be very strange logic if Parliament was to take all the burdens, and the King to enjoy his . Hereditary Revenues, those Revenues which were enjoyed by the Crown for the express purpose of protecting and defending. the Nat-ion. It never could -be supposed •that this was the intention of Parliament, though it *as true that. several Mo narchs had prodigally wasted those revenues so as to render them of little consequence. The revenue of James the 11. had been stated to be z,000,p001. which, it was evident, when the value of the money at that - time was considered, could not have been granted for : the mere purposes. of •the Civil List.-- This, , however, had nothing to do with the pre sent question ;,as from the . moment that Parliament exonerated the Crown, for,that was the state of the case, from ,the .Expences. of the Nation, from that moment •the Hereditary Revenue of the Crown becaine a part of the Public Revenues of the State, and were placed under the contralti 'of Parliament - ; that it 'So 'Understood in the time of King Wil liam, he had little dOubte The Right Hon. Gene' tleman had said, that it was not decided at that period,ewhether King William was entitled to these Revenues, jure Corona', or not ; but if: it was not decided' in words',. it wilS completely decided by - fitets';` It might be Matter Of doubt, aS-•King came to the .Throne by the, will' of the People, whether he was entitled of right to these Revenues ; bin of this- he was sure, that if 'King Williarn the Third had no right, King George the Third had none ; for he hoped and trusted that he was not the Representative of. James the. Second, ,but of William the Third. The. Parliament, how_ :ever, in the time of king. William the Third, de cidcd that question beyond all possibility of cavil, as they appropriated-certain Revenues to the purposes of the Civil List, which' Revenues were in Isla the Hereditary, Revenues of the Crown, properly so _called, and then they provided, :that if these Revenues should exceed in their produce the suits of . 700,c5001. -the surplus should be appropriated as , Parliament•should think proper. Not only- this, blit if any of those Revenues should exceed the sum of' 700,0001. the surplus was to he appropriated at the pleasure of Parliament. He stood therefore upon' this-decision, though there were many other deci sions which rendered the Hereditary . Revenues of the-Crown applicable. by :Patrliament. The system 'adopted then had been ever since pursued. He hap-1 pened the other day to throw out a doubt whether , the Civil List ought to be granted for life, •or from time to - time. • Parliament in 'the reign of -King William, at first granted it from time to time, but afterwards, very justly - , as;he thought, they granted it for life ; in this example they the Parliament at the accession of Queen A nt 2 t 4 Geo. the I. 11. and and his opinion wl .e great ;judgment. With respell to Queen'Annet rn s _ whole of the Hereditary Revenues were vprop,..o ated : with resped to Georqc the I. betlioug' the Right Hon. Gentleman was . mistaken, in alert" ing that the Civil List of that MonarOh were followed • e Soo,oool. he I3elie ved it .was. only 706,00 01 %_„ . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. Sliat grant was 700,00°L but the experidittitt 800,oaol. • mdn h " ad i , o lte x I s ' a r i e d c , ec la d i e ( d i . g — reTt h . s e tt ties which His present Mftjesty had to pay to the ResisgtlliptonHotz Gents Mr, Princess Amelia, the Duke of Cumberland, 07, Other branches of the Royal Family, but see forget forget that George the First paid too,6 ool ;"°•_,, nt the Civil List to George the .Second, then rrit;cl-1° Wales, which reduced the Civil List to 60010'°',.,„ It was true, that in the reign •of George the r,D.l_ an application was Made in aid of the ..Clvl • e . List, and it was equally true,. that l'aFita inn relieved it from its. difficulties - ; but the lief was afforded by means'. of a SixpentlY upon Pensions and Salaries, ,thus enabling t d , Civil List to relieve itself, without, in any tier, burthening the PUblic. George 1 - 1 the • a Grant of Soo,oool. a year for any excess, in t. t i l e le . produce. of which the Crown was not answ eia ,' In the reign of that Monarch, a successful APP ,;' "Ci; Lion was made to Parliament, not to ti le je pay • of of the 'Civil List, but to make OW the o ' l ,- 6' 4, . • - of its Revenues. • The Right - Honourable, `_ , -' s c ot - • denim laid so much . stress, upon the bur" el- hat l George the Third, as _if Geefrge the S e cond re a pone at all ; but the latter Monarch gr' n d , uut -of his Civil List -so,ocol. a- year to - f re he r rick Prince of Wales; besides. large sums o r . ° h t o .e branches of the Royal Family. Many o , l ' i ' re - ' e burdens continued at the accession of the ill. The annuity of the Duke of Cu - c - •,,il land _was paid 'for fifteen years.' our 'of the 1 e List of .:George 'the IL, but 'only for five Y e r j e at : out of that. of George .the. ,when that ." A - 1.4 Prince died. Several of the Other Annuitao ts '; 0 0. Of theciaritpt were paid 1 7 c;t several years dull:: the reign - of George the 11. and hut for ac ° 9 71• L ratively short period during the reign ofGeorg e n t he The Right certainly Hon. Gentleman ta k the best way of communicating the subject to liOtiSe, by referring:to His Majesty's IVICSOg jg C self. stipport_ the argument, the should have stated, that His Majesty was r e36l ge. give up his Claims relative to 'his. HereditarY (3 ai venues, which would have been singlilar , as in there was nothing to give up. The :Vlessag e t het to ever'„. wed no such thing. The argumentol this; that because Revenues, am ou nting to ,S oo,° ‘ ) thc were--granted to His Majesty's Grandfather! "same Revenues ought to be granted' to His Nl"J es r` t o; although they might amount in their pr,khl ee ,„ a n 1,600,0001. a year. The Right Hon. Gcritl e ,7de had 'said; that the Civil List' was thought ton ' l 'l . at the time it was gFanted ; but His Majesty „ rimers, at that time; united in proposing and s t Z. i t porting the Grant, and Ile could not believe , ize ., the Ministers of that day would have propose d a it ., i ss venue :inadequate to the claims upon it;, he was convinced, that they . did "°t- fo r adequate. He would suppOsei however, 1-- trite moment, that they . didpropose an . ina'' ec r t o Revenue. At the -.end of nine years , . in ien t, year 1769, an application was made to Parl,.'''' abo ut to relieve the Civil List; with a sum Ot j n or 50 0 ,0001. the ,amount of its:_debtp. cot!'" hat speak relative to the Debate upon the sohi e6 iwer there were several Pamphlets published at tile lac amongst which one written by Dean Tacker,,,Pv.,. the subjectina, very ingenious point of v' 'that There were several additional 'eXpences durilolfood, period, such as- the Coronation, &c. not wi t l e d 10 ing which, the whole • debt. only 0 00!' 500,0001. which was somewhat more ,than 5 - 1 1115 a year, on an cxpence of 850,0001: ye' r• debt was.paid, and; as he conceived, vit he. ,,, ataß Eight years afterwards, another demand sv: some" for •the debts . of the Civil List, and it vi3 i o d e'fr what singular, that the debt of the l at ter P c ; w hilsr ceeded that of the former, it being 6oo ' o° ° " o f t his • the latter was only soo,oool. The paynE t •,ion° debt was strongly opposed, and upon th the question, there was a minority in • r ile , hey." ... tion, ,considerable for talents . and resrec:l"''lle p ro' He opposed it, and still more st ro . n„ L orlY t° position which was then. broughtare` is obi increase His Majesty's civil List. ••;tire served truly, that admitting the expen dl i these eight years, the expences' of the Ci vil e not amount to 960,0001. a year. The evet, thought fit, very his °P II °c ol. / increase His Majesty's Civil ° List to 9 °° ' ')" • year. The speech of the Speaker of t h e 14 sotto Gammons , (Sir 4i:roil:E. dn P re P at <ART° t he V the Billcontaining this additional. grant xt be M e l 'of the House of LordS, would, he - tritste - ' s ft, remembered, Mr.. Fox desired the sPe e . el. 0 , 3 5 1 ' 1 to might be read from the Journals, (wh' e c c i i i t cordingly read by the Clerk) it was a sP e tre of however .Court-sycophancy, might disaPPres s r - i• met with the approbation of that Hou se, e r ;ved 'by a 'Vote. of' Thanks, and was not . (3;0111'4 was by His Majesty, as Sir FLETCHER ISTOI e sc l7 The ( r jef , few years afterwards created a Peer. °1 another man,' whose talents were of the . 6 P r alic wit il , for whom he entertained die highest resp e. f r on t Thifr resped to whom he had now forgotten anYthero, los mosities . thatiniglit have existed between nW I • Gentleman(Mr. Bo RICO had produced a 131 " tloo re I P, f , his name had been given; and which wen! ;Vac l e islatureaejntlelerP°l Les. ht priticiple,:that the Debts of the Civil - s iatn f Leg, l ( .65 theinselves criminal, and that when the t y f e had fixed . the amount of the Civil Lists e ve b itetA was a disobedience 'to the 'Leg 0,1 t niisdemtanour.a rche Right Hon• 0 rt . to said that the Aa.was, with respect to respd the payment,- loosely word-d ; and with . 0 0 :he technical and legal meaning of it , he 160 5°' I the int e answer ; but the spirit. of it, ant n• ht the framer, were well knnwil- c a v The : I g re ll o t Gentleman' had however Made-Use n" . t dangeo, which might be . good,..hut wits of a t f s gighr tendency to the Constitution•- t he p3y .7 tip nourable Gentleman had asked, 0 1 •• os r ,rals - ve"eic - not 'made according to the r--v F )1 I )