The Sun. — London, England, 1807-02-19 00:00:00

• To the I ) IWPRIETORS of EAST INDIA STOCK. IAI3(FS AND GRh:TLEMEN, A-NIMATED in the most sensible manner by .Cl.. the repeated assurances of support which •I continue to Oceive, I must again express my warmest gratitude for such additional and disinterested marks of favour. I have already humbly submitted to you my preten s i ons t o fill a seat in the biredion. ' The experience of a great por tion of my life in the Company's service, combined with en tire leisure, constitute the grounds of those pretensions ; more I cannot otter, and more I am sure you do not require in a Candidate, to enable him to discharge theduties of this im portant station • but I may, I trust, without presumpti on , give you my solemn assurance, that in the event of my suc cess (and the reception I have met with in my canvass leaves inc no room to doubt it) my ability shall be exercised to the Utmost, and the whole of my time be devoted to the _fulfil ment of every duty connected viith the prosperity of the East , India Company. • trust that those Proprietors to whom I have not yet paid my respeds, will not impute the apparent neglect to any otter than the real cause, the extensiveness of the 'Canvass. 1 have the honour to be, Ladies and Gentlemen, • Your most obedient and obliged humble Servant, ' liirchin-lane, Feb: 11, 1807. ROBERT WILLIAMS. N.B. Captain Williams's Committee meet ever} , IVednes,, day, at the King's Head Tavern, in the. Poultry, and attend frum Eleven to Five o'Clbck, by whoth any colmmunications fitiill be thankfully received. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOW OF PEERS, WEDNESDAY,' FEB.. 18, Counsel were again heard. in the Irish Appeal, Aleickle v. Dick.—To be further heard to-morrow. Lord De Dunsfanville.'S Bill, and the Newfound land.. Trade Bill, were brought up from the Com sikuns, and the latter was read, a first time. The Barrack Master's Commissioners Bill, and the other Bills on the table, were read a third time and passed.--Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, WEDNESDAY, FEB. 18. A new Writ was, ordered for the County of Ar magh, in the room of Vikount Acheson, now Earl Gosford. Sir CHARLES PRlCEpreserited a Petition from the Governor and Court of DireEtors of the South Sea Company, pray ing to be heard by Counsel against the Bill new pending i❑ ParliaMent for the Repeal Of some of their Chartered Rights.—Ordered to lie On the table till the second reading of the Bill. MA LT DUTY Mr. PATTISON seeing .the Right Hon. Secretary' to the Treasury in his place, wished to,ask, whether it was the intention of i\linisters to continue, or make any alteration in, the Duties imposed on Malt last Sesion, which would e's.pire on the 25th of next month ? Mr. VANSITTART informed the. Hon. Member, that the subjet,t had occupied •the earnest attention of the Trcatury, and that it should shortly be his duty to bring the question. under the consideration of the House. BARRACK, DEPARTMENT. Mr. ROBSON'snid; that when in 1802 he had submitted certain Notions to that House fir :niecly ing abuses oencrally prevailing in the Barrack De partment, 1; : e had been - thought by his friends too zealous a devotee in the cause of refbrm, but when • . -it was recollected that since, that period six millions and upwards have been devoted for this apart ment in this Country, and more than two millions for the same in Ireland, and when it is considered that had the measures he had 'then proposed been adopted, two millions at least of the' money of the Country • would have been saved—when such were duly weighed; he was sure he would not now he thought as having been zealous without cause, The great and leading abuses in this Department werain the building and repairing of Barracks. He would shortly state to the HouSe the Circumstances of a cae of which he had personal knowledge. 'Mr. Page; Barrack-Master of Winchester, bought a house,which he rented titer sixty pounds' per annum, and which ought to have been rented at thirty pounds per an-' num. This house, in the year 1801, a Mr. Green parchaces, and next day the Government is charg ed for this very house no less a sum than 1631. ios. Thus, in the space of . four or five years, pay in,- 9901. for that which Government ought to have bad fur 831. 10s. and including the adanional terest, and the necessary expences arising out .of di lapidation, the expences might be fairly, rated within 3 limited number of years at 17791. instead of 831. TOs. ; b2sides, this house lodged but three ,Officers, and even a Captain's .allowance per week W.:s but eight shillings io4ing Money.;- - so 'that surely'this was out of all reasonable proportion. He should state, with the indulgence of the House, alio- - ther' case which had come within his own know ledge. Upon the 17th of September last he • . had, througha motive of curiosity, paid a visit to t.l,;;e building in Weymouth, called' tht# thieen's BarraCks, and containing seven hundred men. What was the situation of this Barrack ? the worst in every resped• that could be colick..ived—stuck Up in a , nal row unwholesome street, adjoining a public brew house—not ground enough belonging to it to parade a company, of , course an additional expence of sixty . . guineas a year for parade ground—no gates to this building—no place to air the men in a season of wet we;ither,and what was more objectionable than all, 'no water—the water was supplied from' a distant pamp,,and that a bad one, foi it was often dry---no internal accommodation—the men obliged to lie in hammocks ; when he stated all these several grounds nt conlplaint, he . diA it nut with a view to attach, blame to any of the Otiicers connetled with this de partment—,-they were no: to be censured—they could net help it,' the fault was a radical fault- it was, la the system itself, and until that system was altered and improved upon, it was to no purpose to attach blarne to 'the Officers aaing upon so vicious and ill-organized a system. He >vas sorry to say that the Barrack Dopartment in Ireland was in almost as de plorable a situation, and yet that House paid fitteen out of every seventeen shillings that werc expended in that .country under the head 01 . this department ; the Honourable Gentleman then concluded-. with rnovng the following Resolutions " That there be laid before this 1 - I , hise a Return Of all ihe - Buildings'of every description renrea or hired, by L;ovcri:ineilr, and used as "Barracks or. p ;aces for iodging or contain:n i l oflicers anti soldiers of dr army', or pi perz,os sod horses amcned to titz.! army; that the tall do embrace every imildwg - which has so been rented, or hilt..., and so us ed, is rile whole t reat tietwczn the isr day orjait, 179; and the 24th of June, 134: That the si:id Return be exhiuited in lc Glurniis, placed - in the order mid. containing the several beads }:cif: folio% ing, viz. Ist, The date oft he year and r:f the rt:::nth vyastakeni Thc arkt 4.: ,ty when elch building respe6tivvly County and parish in which the building is situate ; 3d, The name or phrase describing the building; 4th, The number ut officers that are, or have been, generally quartered or loil,;ed in the building ; sth, The number of non- commissioned oili,ers and men, and of horses, that are or have been generally guar. tered or lodged in the bltilding ; 6th, The mune of the pro prietor.of the building ; 7th, The name and rank of the ollicer or person by whom the building was taken on the part of Go vernment ; ' Bth, The weekly rent or hire of the building; nth, The yearly rent or hire of the building ; loth, The name-and rank of the officer or person, or officers or persons, through whose hands the rent ur hire has - been paid to the proprietot of the building; t ith, The time when any alteration (ifally) in the rent or hire of the building was made; izth, The week ly rent or hire of the building subsequent to such alteration; 13th, The•yearly rent or hire of the building subsequent to such alteration ; t4th, The time when the building was given up, if not now occupied by Government; tsth, The account of the whole of the sums which have been expended in repairs upon the building; and that the said Returns do exhibit all the names and descriptions of the said buildings, following one another in due chronological order, the building first taken by Government standing first, and the building last taken stand ing last." Mr. 'JAMES MARTIN, (Member for Tewkesbury) seconded the Motion. Lord HOWICK had great doubts as to any prac tical good effects that could possibly arise from a Motion of such extent as that submitted by th e H on . Member ; he did not know whether, if the Motion in its present entent was acceded to; it would be pos sible to enforce it; to make out the lists called for, would require the aidoftwen ty-fbur additionalUerks, and even then it could not. he said what time would be occupied in completing thoe lists, perhaps too late for-any of the purposes required ; besides, this department, was now, subjea to. the stri4l investiga tion of the ,Com Missioners of ,Military Inquiry, • and upon their eXpreSs de s ir e another Commission was appointed, which Commission had been silt-fi de:llly empowered fur adequate examination by an A& just passed for that purpose. . • Colonel BA.RItY Vindicated the Barrack Depart-, meht in Ireland. 'Gen. PORTER did not think that the evils com plained of in the Barrack Department were of such • an extent as the Hon. Member seeimd to apprehend. Mr ROBSON said, - that if the Arconntwhich he called for could not be made'out by to-morrow, that such a belief should, in his mind, be in itself an nrgent • reason to that House to appoint a COmmittee of In,- quiry into that Department before it adjourned.— What ! to be told that his lists could not be furnish , ed, because of a paucity of clerks hi an establishment. that already maintained 59 t ! When it was, recollect ed of what great national benefit Motions of a simi lar nature were in the course of last year productive, ' he could hot think that if- he-persisted in his present Motion, the House would inconsiderately defeat it.• He had been the cause last year of a saving in the Shells of barns, of the difference between 11001. and 22001. He should not now, however, push his Mo tion to a division, as he had learned that something of what he aimed at, had been in agitation. Lord HO WICK wished to have it distinctly un derstood, that he should never be against the pro du&ion of Papers of that nature, whenever they were put into any prafticable form. Mr. Robson's Motion was then put, and negatived without a division. A Petition was presented for the Improvement of the Harbour of Dover. Mr. VANSITTART presented Papers relative to the Recruiting Service.—Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. .A.:lCles,:ige from the Lords acquainted the House, that their Lordships had agreed to the Cape of Good Hope Bill, the Bat rack Department Commissioners' Bill, and the Irish Controverted Election Bill, with out any amendment. SOUTH SEA TRADE BILL. Lord TENIFLEsmoveI, that the South Sea Trade Bill be read a second time. Sir CHARLES PRICE hoped that a Bill bear ing so hard upon the South 5&.a Company would not be- hurried through its several stages until it had met with some consideration, anil before the Company, whose Petition he had that day presented, should be heard by their Counsel in Committee against the Bill. Lord TEMPLE replied, that it would bear much harder on the persons who had embarked then . pro perty ir. Ships to Buenos Ayres, withoui fiaving gone through the form required by . the Charter, of obtaining a licence from the South Sea Company, if such persons were not indemnified from the loses they must otherwise encounter. Any of his .111a jesty's Privateers, on coming up with such Ship,, would have a - vested right in the Ship'Scargo s‘ized. Nor would this be the only bad consequence result ing from their not being indeMnitied 'for having sail ed without a licence, the pdlicy of insurance i,yould be of no avail. . Mr. JACOB could not at all see what urgent claims the South Sea Company had to an exclusive trade ; : they had been without any commerce since the year 1 740 ; they were of course without capital, and thorefore would now, in the resumption of a trade, require a new capital to trade on ; their ori ginal attempts to force a trade- had been very in auspicious, and all their little protips could not de fray the expences of the support of the manufacto ries; they had then recourse to the trade in the mines —this had no better success than the other; after wards, in the subsequent Spanish War, they lost all 'then manufadories, , their trade had been wholly 'discontinued.since the year 1765, and he believed that it could not be resumed by that Company, on an exclusive footing, without material injury to the community at large, Besides, the trade might be said to ha most productive in its ruins---tin - out of its ruins had arisen the Southern Whale Fishery, of great bencht,to the. Country, and looked upon i 6 one of the best nurseries for seamen. Besides, by Act of the Legislature in I 802, all his Majesty's Subjects have a right to trade with South America to the 80th de gree of South latitude. Since the quarrel with the Spaniards for the fur trade of Nootka Sound, that trade has been entirely engrossed by America. With regard to the insurances, he thought that an head upon which much consideration ought to be be stowed. Mr. ROSE thought that the - Bill would in E - ome respe&s operate as an ex pas'ifirao law, to I.he injury of the South Sea Company, as Jar as it went to pre vent or remedy the seizure of vessels by Our Arica togs, 'nit had his doubts as to the propriety ot . -that retro pedion as far as it affeted the interests of the Undei-writer the of msuranc,e. vas then read a second Ow, and ordered Mto be. committed for onday nest. Timm t). Mr. linsz presentod a Petition against the tion of the iave Trade, from the INl.relt;_lnt.7, Planters, and others concerned in:the hind of Tfi itH ht.—Ordered to lie on the tdhje. ; 2ir. WlLBrsavottce 'moved than an humble Ad dress be presented to his Majesty, That his Majesty would be graciously pleased to dire&, that the Copies of such further 'Correspondence as may have taken place between the Government and the Governors, Merchatirs7Planters, &c. &0. - of the Island of Trim. - dad, be laid' before the House:;---Agreed-to. )1 SUGAR AND RUM BOUNTIES. Mr. HounousE brought up the Report octhe Bounties upon Ruin and Sugar ; the Resolutions were severally read and agreed to, with-the exception of the two last Resolutions, which, on the Motion of 'Lord Henry Petty, were postponed. Srr Jonisr NEWPORT postponed his Notice for this day to Friday next. WAYS AND MEANS. Mr. ROSE (the House having gone into a Com , - mince) said, that he could tiot.see hoW the'PrOposed Bounties on Rum and Sugar could at all go to serve the' West India Merchants, but certainly might, he contended, materially affeat the Revenue, by en hancino-D the profits of the smugglers. In time of Peace, he calculated that the amount of Brandy smuggled would be seriously considerable. In his part of the Country it had come within his know ledge to observe frequent instances of the inadequacy of the Revenue Officers to check smuggling, and yet he should be ever wiling to hear testimony to the industry and vigilance of the Officers of the Revenue. Of the waggons so often conveying smuggled not perhaps more than one f e n a hundred has been . seized. Lord H. PETTY defended the efficiency of , the. proposed bounties to benefit the West -India Thde ; and said that measures had been long under the con templation, of Government, for putting the most ef fectual check to smuggling. • - • Gen. GASCOYNE approved' of the measures re-‘ sorted to to encourage the trade, but feared that they would not be found in their operation to be suffi ciently permanent. The Hon. Member was pro ceeding to remark on other of the Resolutions, when he was reminded by Mr. Hobhouse of the immediate question before the Committee. The Resolutions then went thrOugh tlie Com mittee, and on the HOuse resuming, the'Reisort was ordered to be received to-morrow, and Ways and Means committed for Friday. The Sugar Drawback Bill was committed for to.; morrow. SIMPLE CONTRACT DEBTS. The SOLICITOR GENERAL moved the second read. ! ing of the Bill for making the Estates of Personsdy ing in Debt Assets for the Payment of their Simple Contrast Debts. Mr. HERBERT spoke against the Bill, but in a tone so j inanklible, that we cannot pledge ourselves to state even-the substance of his objeaions. The MASTER of the ROLLS was by no means sure of the propriety of facilitating the charges upon landtd property in.. this country, and nothing could operate more effectually in bringing about that circa than the Bill proposed by his' Honourable and Learned Friend. As the Law of England now stood, a scrap of paper could not affea real property ; it was the policy of the Law in all cases, that all proceedings affeCting landed property should be invested with all possible solemnity ; besides he could not see the necessity Of the law being anxious to do that for the creditor which he might have done for himself, and which he'did not do. If a cre ditor be content with a simple contract security, why should the law superadd to it that of a bond ? or, if a bond had been pledged for a debt, why in that case -should the law invest the creditor with all the additional securities of a mortgage ? He disapproved of the forced application of a contest ed principle to this case, . that the individual con teaaing was not to have merely the virtue of his contract, but the virtue of all for which he might have contracted, that is, that he was to have the aihralts tage not only of what he had done, but of 'all he might.have done. The Owner of a freehold estate, by suffering.a common recovery, may transfer, that estate ; but, Ncause he can do that, is the Law, therefore, in any case, to determine that lie has done it. He was no friend to that excessive earnestness that made the Law do fbr Creditors what they did not choo3e to do for themselves. ,He could not see any great utility as to remedying the,past, and'in view ing it with relation to existing circumstances; it appeared to him tp be aaually unjust; because it respect,pt a a o t e-isl whichairt;Nie‘, (lave ti n )si d aocbe ctf jl.diecler;e themselves..nt situation - from ent beyond lii in another point Of view, It fell short of that object. It had fallen short of its objed by not including copyhold estates, which by the existing law are subject neither to simple contract debts, nor bond debts, nor debts , oe mortgage. Besides, in. a former Bill of this kind which had passed that House, but had been lost in the other, copyhold estates were included. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was extremely glad that this Bill had, in so early a stage, met with opposition, because opposition might introduce such a discussion as_ would point out those defeas which , he had not yet seen, and suggest those improve ments which might not have otherwise occurred .to him. .He had heard the objeaions of his Learned and Right Hon. Friend, .and it -was his misfortune that he now heard them for the first time. In, the first place he was most willing to admit, that it was the bounden duty of every person proposing a change in an old-established law, to prove the wisdom and expediency of . the change proposed : the law - which he proposed to change had been ena6ted in,. times wholly and essentially different from the ,present ; therefore that law to the present times was total) , inapplicable ; since that period this country had be come a great commercial country, and the great onjed of I , the Bill' proposed- % a s , to secure and faci litate all commercial traipai:tions, by increasing the .security of ‘s hat are termed - merely negotiable Pa pers. To argue, then, from the wisciora ofour an cestors, however ,ra:ional, popular, and fiatterina such an argument is, in support of provisions made for times directly opposite to the charaner of the present times, militates against the very authority it would produce ; for the policy that then existed woald be, in the present circumstances of-the coun try, es:aravagant and mischievous. His Leaned anti Peght H.on. Wriend spoke of the law doing for the crasilAor wait he might, if he pleased, have done far nit:lst:it: Did his Learned and Right Hon. Erknd remember, that debts contracted in the course of tract:, cannot b.- made swecialty if in the course of trade traders were 'not satisfied with the or dinary negotiable securities; but insisted every mo ment of having recourse to bonds - , mortgages, a nd all the-securities under seal required by the existing law, there would bean end to trade. Another oh- Jedion to the existing law was, that according to it all breaches of trust were merely simple contraa *debts. If an'executor vests the property which he holds in trust in the purchase of a real estate, and devises that estate to his heir, the children for whom be held in trust had upon his death no means of re dress whatever, and none of subsistence but what, parochial' charity could atThrd. This, he thought, a. strong and urgent case; and, he was sorry to say, that such cases were by no means rare. Much more then had the preseet age to complain'of the supine ness than to applaud the wisdom of those who had gone before us. An heir succeeding to the estate of 'his ancestor without suhjeding himselfto the debts of that ancest or , was pecul i ar to England and Ireland. It was, not the law of Scotland, though the • law of that country was in every resped so jealous of alienation. It .was not the law upon the Continent, where the remains of fendal stridness more ,generally prevailed. He contended that it should be the lead ing policy of every commercial country to facilitate, as much is possible, the alienation of property._._ Is it to be argued how inconvenient a power is vest ed in the owner, of a fee simple estate, in trans ferring- that estate to any person , whom he pleases to rnaKe his heir ? or shall it_be at the same time contended, that the man who can giv e hi s whole enjdurtyo, tniLakreuiannyof i s l t i t s el r t ig e h a t i t - y u ri l c c iou re s_ - property t o anot h er, b y the dash of his pen; shall t b r e a t i o )e t r h m e i t ditor ; and yet that this same man shall not be compelled to do- ju st i ce , b ut denied the power of rendering justice to his creditor ? It had been said by the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last but one, that credit was already carried too far in this court. try.—lf so, let imprisonment . for debt be abolished, and that would operate as' a sate and wholesome check ; for would lit not be better to do this by rescuing a great portion of our countrymen front the.moral contagion of a gaol, than by locking up the estates of the extravagant from the just claims of-their creditors ? The creditor who recovers judg ment may establish . a lien on the estate during the life of the debtor. He could not see why the estate in' the bands or the heir should be more difficult to come at than in the bands of the debtor himself. This Bill, however, goes to establish no lien, but merely to put simple contra debts on the same footing with specialty debts, as in the due sense of equity they are.and ought to be. He had btit Vol observation more to make, in answer to. what 115 " • fallen from his Learned and Right Hon. Friend, as to copyhold estates. He regretted that this was not included. The Bill, he admitted, ought to extend to them. Mr. Ambler's Bill included theth, but, great as were the information and talents of that Gentleman, the Bill was lost in the upper Howse, and he believed it would be found upon cansider - 4 - tion that the introdudion of copyhold estates was . th e chief if not the only cause of its failure. There are no estates whichoit is mor e difficult to atfed than copyhold estates ; they could not be greeted even by Judgment darirjg the lite at the debtor. }- 10 therefore, for theioresent,..was not too. much. ;no Ar t Hot I pass, he had great hopes that the Lirrielre not stop there ; it was better in the - Ceginning to go step by step. In the Court in which his Leal ned and -Right LlOnourabie Friend presided with so much advantage to the 'Country, it was, he admitted, the principle to give to the contracting parties all the benefit of what they might have contended for, but believed that established principle related Chiefly to the real estates of persons seized in tail. Mr. CA VYING observed, that though feelings of veneration for every institution of our ancestors ought not to be carried to excess' and bigotry, they ought to:operate so far as to prevent any rash altera tions. Innovations of this nature ought to. be re- garded with the utmost jealousy, and to be examin , ed with the utmost scraputousness. Without mean ing,any disrespect to the llsmourable and Learned Gentleman who proposed this Bill, for as to his abi lities there' could be- but one opinion, he must, say that it was his own opinion, and that of many others,, that a measure of this nature ought rather to have originated in the other Honseovhere it might have, in the first stages, undergone the revisi o n o f the great Law Magistrates. This ought to have been ./ the case, though the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman had heard of no difference of opinion on the subject ; but if there. was a di tierence of op;thion ex isting there, that point well deserved the lioneurai ble and Learned Gentleman's consideration. The particular obje& of this Bill was to, meet the cases of fraud with regard to freehold „ estates, b ut he ad mitted that with rega r d to copyhold and entailed es tates the tooth for frauds would still be left open. • But lie insinuated that this was only meant as a pre liminary step to similar alterations with regard tecopr* hold and entailed estates. In this view he had strong objections to the Bill. The Hon. and Learn ed Gent. admitted that one door would be left - open for fraud ie the purchase of copy-hold estates ; he would ask him whether previous debts were in tended to supersede subsequent settlements of free -hold estates, and to be good against purchasers ? If they were not, the °bled of the Bill would be evaded ; if they were, then you would only be do ing away one opportunity tor fraud, in order to cre ate a stronger. The Honourable and Learned Gen , . tleman stated, that this was becoming in a great de glee a commercial country, and that in that respea its situation was become different from what it was whet: this law with regard to .property had been es tablished.' ThiS was certainly true, but though he felt well disposed towards the commercial interests Of the country, yet he did not thin that it ought -o be promoted at the sacrifice pro troth) of ti;e periea nent landed interest. He did not think that this was wanted. But wby did not the 1 - I,nr)urabie and Learned Gentleman make his - Bill exadly cominen serate with his object ? Why did he not apply it merely to the landholder engaged in commerce, and adopt the suggestion' of the :tight Honourable and Learned Gentleman (the Master of the Rods). for confining iCto the first purchasers of freehold es tates. You might secure the - objeet by extenduig the Bankrupt Laws to these case;. But as to the general doetr;ne of . the adaptation' of ►aws to the sup' psed State of the country, it would open a door for all reformation. In the reign of the Philo,ophers o . l!rance,, there w4§ p9thing great, or venerable 1