The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-16 00:00:00

. ~ '' lr an between any two counties 'of Great. tritain.! , There were, however, independent of the pejudices, which must prevail upon such a subjea, some Cie_ citrnstances peculiar to Ireland, which were entitled to consideration.. It might be apprehended, that rthe . event of a pressur e f rom a scarc i t y, t h at t h e •-apttal of England would draw a great proportion or the grain from Ireland.. There.was also another ci rcumstance that deserved to be considered, which ' v ast that the means prbvided in this country. for the relief of the poor, did not subsist io . Ireland, t here beingtno Poor fate there. Therefore, upon S uch asubjea it would be necessaiy to move cau tiously, fearfully., and with a degree of .circum !Peetion upon a subjea which might be supposed, in some instance's, to - prevent the Poor of Ireland fro m get t i ng . t h e i r f oo d at reasona bl e pr i ces. There b eing, no P oor - rate i n I re l an d, th e l a b ourer h a d no. t hins* to - de-Pend, Upon but his own earnin g , and • t he 'liberality- and benevolence of his neighbours. -- --At the same rime he could not help saying there m ost have been a degree of prejudice in entertain. 'lug the idea that the facility of exportation of Corn from Ireland into this Country, would be injurious to the P'eople of Ireland, because no consequ ence o f the aka of Union operated a s a . restraint o n t h e ex hortation Of Spirit s f rom Ireland to this Country ; a nd therefore, if C orn was b roug h t h ere in the sh ape of. Spirits, to any amount, the effed.was the %lei at least ai t o t h e quant i ty-o f G ra i n used i n such aMount; a's if it came in kind. Under this impres_ a iiin of th e su bj e a , wh a t he wished And hoped to be dolieed at present, Was, that of raising the export price, so as 'to enable the Owner in Ireland to send, 4nd-this part of the United Kingdom to receive from thence, Grain (after fixing the :price ac which it T i jaar be- all owe d to be exported), in like manner as , I rom any p art o f the Continent of Eur Ope. The ' 0 West price at which, at oresent, Corn could be fectived • into this Coutitry was, Wheat. 545. Bar.. bY 28s. an d Oats 28s. per quarter. He should r Pe that the House would he of opinion, it would a n encou ragement to cultivation i n Ireland, and , 'Y uch means, an advantage to the People at large Cher e , as well as here, to enable one part of the a i l : l ll ' 4 e to obtain from the other—that was,- to en, mean e the Errere" to obtain, of a part of itself, the Du s "f subsistence With more facility : for this purl of he thoualit the better course would be to port f ..." „ e ! T iee : I t which it shall be ,allowable to, ex nationrs.--, iieland IP England Grain of alldenomi- Varati ve ai - ,t Present, - for the sake of a paltry em body ar : vilntage to the Irish Distillers, a valuable try, w -len.carrying on the same trade in this Cours e I ng further materially injured. Without, however, lay that . 'er stress, on that consideration, he asserted arti !tie Trade of the West India Merchants, in the s tit ,„ e4e ,_of Rum, called for the adoption of this mea- A:4 .1 4 °Lit, above all, he would say (for it -was matter ,„ the highest importance), to enable Great Britain ;Y r traffi c with herself in the article, of Corn (for to I .' 4 ,,,Te with Ireland now, was to traffic, with her. i, e , 4 %-ittstead of - resorting to any market she may C 4 on the Continent ; for, at present, instead of : l ivng our supply from Ireland, and, by such I h a nss , encouraging cultivation there, .by which ta . e advantage would b e rec i proca l ; to Great- Bri 'n she ad vantilge would l)e considerable, by hay -3 her Grai n f rom Ireland—to Ireland the advan tZt Would be also considerableeby the encouragementtictwo:ldsive to cultivation whereas the present prac. ... % n .t importing f rom t h e diff erent mar k ets on the tititinetit, was a l oss - to both--a dead loss to the eth .dire at large.'—These were the considerations motion had induced him to think of referring .the . i le ,, t . e r for discussiOn, and he had_no doubt it would i f - te from -a conithittee the attention it required ; .• it s h, , , )1110 as he hoped it should, be the pleasure of- tile 3 t Pose Houseto appoint ,a Committee. for that pur resuitlt was not for him to say what might be the ticina of -the labour of that Committee . ; nor to an tionroi,! what 11)4 it the the HOuse, might .4fterwards be. the - detertnina_ lie had only, at present, to sub th , as a matter worthy of investigation, and, eret ore tee h e ' he should now move, " That a Commit- ' Trad e a h PNinted' to consider of the Safe ofiheCdrn report th e Great Britain and, Ireland, and to to t h „ e S ' a utet with their Observations thereupon, e rtouse." Mr. Fa t , • • fi ' T R s . said, he . . • I rst, of declar . al , lose f or the purpose, now p roposed rg his approbation of the. measure had jus t s p o k en 'Y the Right Hon. Gentleman who who had culty mor e s * --Th ere was no -man in England. which l a teadii Y steered through every dill'. b etwee n Great 3 yin the iaay of the perfel Union qualified to carryrtihtain a . t.d . Ireland, nor any better than th e D • , C spirit of that Mt into effea, Th ' i gut Ho n G . ; e mat ter • Gentleman who'spoke last.—, 4raPottant now. before the House, was of very COns i d. • ought to 1 , ration ; but it was not all that there , )e considered, even under this head : were many attentio_ 0f.., other topics extremely worthy" the the Lie the House—it appeared to him to be the interest of the Empir e at large, to bring th ees 7 s o . parts of the kingdom into one, and' make to t 'u l le 4 T ' i they were only two counties in regard Pleasu lad e in Corti, at least.—He,Cid the more . t i_ re to seconding this Motion, since On Thurs dY he intended give notice of a Motion for the aPpoint,n„,. to Corn Law-s-ofof a Qotnmittee to inquire into the -Imports from Ireland, and this to take a view of the Purpose - Country, for tile exte n le d n i c n e , chose to e nter 0 _ ~ g it. .4 - towever, he did not t toa o f the E • business business until the CHANC EL_ I,i!t that he iOuna " . rQuEtt appeared in the House, it 'was intended to be taken up I til at Right H bell a I un- Gentleman, he thought that, as , • s t le reolilat• to th e hest hands, and therefore he gave the matter • entirely of th.s„ot Hon. Gentleman.—He approved a ; l swer- f IrelandtProceeding, and he thought he could a, tte ret that that it was a general wish.. l m,easlir e as this should be adopted• qe believed itluaas, a sincere wish 0 , . _obstacle to the plan of ev ery making the two parts . ... 4hrtyr,h,e ,ll.,:ingdorn one in respell of this Trade, we ruelua merete re.mcoved; that it should . be made as it saki this, Co ell; Trade.—H owerer, w hi le h e should, is ii ' l , a e n ri d er w al l: he understood that Ireland et -sli p t hi s b o , 0 . of this opinion, he could not rtunity of observing, that the Laws °I Ir e i an i Pi f o _ rn , upon . this subjea;-had continued uni.. r f rom the year r7 8 4.-7-7By the Bill which then past, i upon this subjed, Ireland was bound to allow t he txportation of its Corn from•thence into this CoUntil, leaving it to ttlisl.lotintry to fix the price at which that Exportation should take place.—The British 'Parliament • had the power of fixing the price, and Ireland was bound to allow the Exporta tion accordingly. That Law had been Continued now for seventeen years inforce, and it had always been approved of, and, therefore, he believed that the measure .now proposed would meet general con currence in Ireland.—Having said this, he thought it might not be improper to submit, further, Whe ther, it might not be better . to enlarge the power of the. Committee,. for the appointment of which th. Right Hon: Gentleman had just moved, and to in strua , it to take-into consideration the Corn Laws at large ? ,The,corn Laws of Ireland had the ad vantage of those of this Country ; and under those Laws, the Agriculture of -Ireland had greatly thriven, so Much so, as to hive more Corn than it could use-, except for the last season or two ; bUt that was: indeed chiefly owing to the failure of the growth of potatoes, thescarcity'of which increased the consumption of Grain ; had it not been for the failure of the'crop of potatoes, there would have been no necessity' for importing any Corn into Ire land.—He was sorry to say, that, in considering the case of this Country, the LaWs in this respea, had been inferior in policy to those of Ire land, for ever .*since . the year 1767, and down almost to the present day, the Laws of- Great Britain had been almost the reverse of the Laws of Ireland, and certainly unwise, for it had been a continued system of Alterations. An endeavour. sometimes to regulate the trade of the Corn Factor, at others to regulate, capriciously, the trade of exportation, at others importation, the whole of it making up a discouraging uncertainty,. .and therefore it was no wonder the agriculture of the Country decline,d under the impression of it.- He should not, now, expatiate upon all the defetii of 'such a system, nor make a laborious comparis_on - between . iti and that which was adopted. in Ireland ; there was one point, however, which he 'could not pass over unnoticed: in Ireland, when the regula- tion was made upon this article, it was made to operate uniformly on the whok of the' CoUntry. klere we had sixteen Disttids, and distind regula tions to each, so that we might be exporting Corn at one part of the Kingdom, while we were im porting it at another, the evils of which were many ; one of them was, . that we never could have a true criterion - to guide us for general purposes, which ought to be the end ofLegislation. He said, there fore, in this case, there should be a free participa don between the two Countries ; we should make one standard for both. Fix the regulation . of im port or export by a price taken from an average of the two parts of the United Kingdom; We should join the whole together, and regulate the whole as of one common Kingdom, and one common cause in one Kingdom : for which purpose it would be ne cessary for us to look, at large, into the whole subjet, and lay down one genera! system for both parts of the United Kingdom. Ireland should be taught that she would be safe in opening her trade to, this Country, and w e should ..be secured here against 'any apprehension of inconvenience from that, species of encouragement to Ireland. When this system was well digested, and put in praelice, this Country would ne v er w an t G ra i n w hil e Ireland had any to send here. . The Motion was then put. Mr, VANDEL4UR said, that this question ap. peared to him to bc one ,of the most delicate that could be brought forward in. Parliament, because it went to make an alteration, in a system of Laws un der which Ireland' had g s ained great advantages to her agriculture, and these advantages sip had been in the enjoyment of for the last sixteen years. Un der this Code of Laws the agriculture of Ireland had flourished.; and considering this, he, as a na tive of that Conntry, should have some apprehen 'sions of danger. to its interests, if he hail not ob served the Right -Hon: Gentleman who spoke last approving of it ; he, from his . talents and. -experi ence, was deservedly high in the estimation Of his' -Countrymen; and partkularly, in kriowledge of Trade, so that' he was confident the Gentlemen of Ireland would be satisfied with this measure, since he approved•of it ; but independent of this confi dence which he had in that Right Hon. Gentleman's abilities and integrity, he had alledged very good. reasons for his opinion to-night upon this subjeft, and he was glad to adopt the measure from those reasons ; and that the more particularly, as he had . recommended the plan of revising the whole of the Corn. Laws, and making one general syStem for both parts of the United Kingdom.—Having ex patiated on the advantages- which Ireland, at pre sent, enjoys by the Laws as they stand,• by way of . sliming the sincerity which she must have in this measure by assenting to it, he concluded with approving of every thing which was said to-night by the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last. The Question was then put. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was confident the House would do him the justice to recollea, that, before the recess, he gave notice to the House,'Of his intention, (an intention which was delayed from a cause probably within the . knowledge of the House) to bring forward a Motion on this subject, describing it at that, time, to have for its onjea, " a regulation of the Corti Trade, of Great Britain and Ireland."—lt was therefOre not extraordinary, that he should have wished the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fos•rEß) to abstain from bringing forward this subjeft; and this was what he could not help stating. He had- pledged himself to bring the subjeft forward, and he was bound to redeem himself - with the House upon that pledge, not that he was not fully aware Of the'advan rages which the subjea would derive from being brought forward by that Right Hon. Gentleman,-but when he made the pledge he had spoken of, to the House, that Right Hon. Gentleman had not a seat in it. However, what he had / said to-night, was deseriing of great consideration, although it ap peared to. him to be, inexpedient to adopt it at pre sent.. The Right Hon. Gentleman is desirous, said. Mr. ADD INGIO,N, and I am glad he is, that all distinEtions shotild.be done away in Trade, between the two branches • of the United Kingdom. That every thing- that is harsh, or may appear invidious, or injurious, should be done-away,- as my wish, as well as that of- the Right Hon. Gentleman, and must, indeed, be the wish of us All but I think a it is not possible ter its to adept the principle laid down by the Right Roth Oenttetiiiin, to tt3 full: extent, until we know the opinion of the-Cari. mittee upon the subject, and whether; after the Committee shall have concluded its l a b o u rs , t h e House, alter having had the advantage of such labour, will be of opinion, that the whole of this trade should be laid open—lt was then, he said, • the , observations of. the :Right Hon. Gentleman would come properly . uuder the consideration of the House.—However, if any thing of this. sort should occur to the Committee as a necessarj Measure, they would have power to report from time .to time ; and if it should be necessary, their power might be enlarged, and according to the in formation which the House might receive, and the impression which ,it might make on the' House, they might enlarge the' sphere of the inquiry of the Committee, and if that should appear to be the wish of the House at any time, it should meet with no opposition from him ; but, at present, he could not concur in seeing. the expediency of carrying the Inquiry to the extent recommended by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. FOSTER said, his objet was, that the Ports of Ireland should be opened so as 'to enable it to send Corn into this' Country.. As to the power of the Committee being enlarged, he thought that 'essential, and he' hoped it would take place. The 'Corn Laws of Ireland had satisfied the People of Ireland. ---The Corn • Laws , Of England had' not satisfied, the People of England, as was evident by the Legislature altering them continually. If the system which we were now to adopt, was a wise one, the price of the'market in Ireland would go into the computation with that of England, and the restraint should be made a joint restraint, operat ing alike on both Countries. Without this general policy, apPlying . equally to both England and Ire.: land, he did not ; see how the matter could be at all settled to advantage. lie understood that, the Committee might call, from time to time, for an en largement of power, and the House might grant it; but whether they did or not, he was persuaded that nothing short of what he had stated, would be adequate to the purpose. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished, at present, the subject} to be confined to the Motion. Sir IV. PULTENEY said, he was very glad that Gentlemen seemed to feel some doubt whether the Corn Laws of England were what they ought to be : that they were not was evident, from the number of ACts of Parliament made from- time to time upon that subject, which proved that the matter had' not .beeri well understood, for if the subjeft had .been clearly comprehended at first, the Law might have been so made as to require no alteration, or at least but little alteration : instead of that, there had been a continual variation in the Law on this subjea ; a thing much to be lamented : for, among many evils, it was a great detriment to agriculture in England.----We knew, that from the time of KING WILLIAM, there was no change in. the Corn Laws until the year 1757—when there was an alarm of Scarcity, and our Corn Laws were thrown open.—This had introduced afterwards a praaice of endeavouring, from time to time, to make provisions; according. to some temporary exi gtiey, which introduced into the Law an uncertainty that .had -a grievous effect ; for the Farmer never knew exadty what to do, that is, he knew not what to look forward to as the 'Law to guide him. He was very, glad the Country had been called upon to observe the contrast between the laws of England and of Ireland in this particular. , The matter shoUld be looked into; and he hoped it would not be lost sight of: and he said this, not for the sake of England only, but for the sake of Ireland also. Both might benefit by this inquiry ; and . he was sure it was highly necessary that the whole .of our Corn Laws should•be reviewed. Mr. WILBERFORCE observed, that as the Committee might report from time to time, as stated by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, nothing farther need be done now than to agree to the ap pointment of a Committee. And if it should ap. pear to he necessary, the importation of Corn from Ireland into this Country, might take place without delay, and that prior to any general system being adopted to regulate this Trade between the two Countries. , Lord HAWKESBURY observed, that he should not have offered himself to the notice of the House upon the present occasion, if it had not been for a single observation of.a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. ,FOSTER), who had taken a part in this debate, and 'which,' if not answered, might leave an 'impression he should be sorry for. _ There was no difference of opinion, as he understood, on the Motion. • It was expedient, in the first instance, to appoint a Committee to inquire into this Law, and that should precede the inquiry of how far it would be wise to open the general Corn Trade between Great Bri-. lain and Ireland. BUt this, he was ready to admit lie.. forehand, that the general Law of the Empire, upon this subjett, was such as to require recision. With out saying what the remedy should be, he was ready to admit, that there ought to'be a general plan for the purpose of preventing occasional Aas of Par- Hameln, upon some temporary, - or perhaps, local in convenience ; for such interferences of the Legisla ture had been proved, by experience, to be injurious to the general interests of the Public. But to say this, was nor the purpose ,for which he rose ; the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. FOSTER) had observ&l that under the laws of :Ireland, the Agriculture, of Ireland had improved. That under the laws of England, the Agriculture of England had declined. He was speaking in the hearing of those who knew this subj muth better than himself, who under_ stood the Agri - culture of England extremely well, and he appealed to them in particular, as 'well as to the - Rinse in general, whether, notwith standing .the inconveniences, whatever they - might be, and they, might be numerous ;and great, bLit whatever, they might be, from t h e fhauation of* law upon this subjea, and of prices in this article ; he would ask, whether" the Agriculture of this Country was not, so far from declining, that within the last ten years, it had improved more than it did in the same length of time, in'the whole coarse of the history of this Country ? He maintained, that it was impossible to look at fans," as they - appeared . before us daily, without coming, to that conclusion.. It might be matter of 'curiosity to inquire, why, it 2- • - the Ag nett! hire tit lir , Count nad tdiincreastd . , t land had, for tfie Last jo years, been an irripOrting ,Country, With fesued to Corn, when it was kndWil, that - for the preceding part of the terittity, the was an exporting Conolty, That might he ascribed to the influence of population, and Aso of Ivealthi And its attendant, luxury, by Which Wheat had conic into common consumption in England over every part of it, or nearly so; . however that might bey clear it was, the Agriculture of England had im proved greatly within these ten. years: On the comparison between Great Britain ,and Ireland, it should be observed that Wheat was not the common food of man in Ireland ; he understood no species of Grain except Oats was in general consumption there— Barley in a great degree certainly, .but not general ; but this prevented the comparison being correct by way of forming a judgment of the agricul, ture of the two Countries. He thought it necessary to say this, to do away all idea of the Agriculture of this Country declining. He concluded with observ. ing, that in his opinion the two countries, England and,lreland, should be put,,with all speed possible, on the same footing in Agriculture. He was persuaded, that until that could be established, the full and en tire advantage of the Union could not be enjoyed ; an object which had become the concern of- the Gentlemen or both countries, and the Merchants of both countries. They would, therefore, give up all personal and local jealousies and prejudices, and look at one common object---the benefit of the Em pire at large. • The Question was then put and carried. The Committee was nominated immediately. .rt is to be an open Committee— , -that is, all have voices who attend it, five of whom are to. be a quorum, and to have power to send for persons, papers, records, &c. FINANCE OF IRELAND. . _ Mr. CORRY brought up a Bill for continuing certain Duties in Ireland, which was read a first time, and after a very few words from Mr. Fos_ TER, which we could not distinaly bear, 'was or. dered to be read a second time to-morrow. TRANSPORTS: The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Transportation Bill. Mr. TIERNEY wished to know for what pre cise objet the Inspector was to he appointed, and whether the salary of 3501. would cover all the ex pences attached to the office "? Lord GLENBERFIE explained the objet} for which the Inspelor was to be appointed, namely, to inspect the Hulks, and report regularly to Par liament ; and said that the salary of 350 h would cover every expenct attendant upon the office, whilst there would be, after paying this salary, a saving of tsol. per annum in the Contra t. Mr. TIERNEY expressed himself pericaly sa tisfied. The House having resumed, the Report was or dered to be received to-morrow. MARINE MUTINY BILL, The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Marine Mutiny Bill. Mr. WILLI4M ELIOT said, the Bill was the same as the preceding one ; the only difference be. ing, that its duration was limited to two months. The' Mouse having resumed, the Report was or. tiered to be received to..rnorrotv. GRENADA'MERCHANTS; Mr. LUSHthGTON moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Coin mittee on the Report of the Petition of the Grenada Merchants. The House having resolved itself into a Corn.. mittee, Mr. Alderman ataTts in the Chair, Mr. LUSHINGTON said, he would not enter into a detail of those calamities and misfortunes which had so cruelly devastated the Islands of Gre.. nada and St. Vincent, and which rendered a loan from Government 'necessary to the Merchants and Planters of those Islands. He should merely ob.; serve, that the Loan was granted for the purpose of re-settling those Islands, which object had been in a great measure attained, as the Islands were in consequence re-settled ; boar= the low price of the produce, the returns were insufficient to enable the Parties to pay the Instalment which was now due, as a loss was aaually sustained by the Planter in the returns made-for his produce, He concl u d e d by moving, That the Chairman should be directed to move for leave to bring in a. Bill for giving fur_' ther time for the paythent of the Instalment. Sir WILIANNI Youto supported the Motion. Mr. W ILBERFORCE, thought there was not , "sufficient information upon the subject before Par.: liament, to warrant a grant of further time. He shatild,• however, not oppose the present Motion ; but when the Bill came before Parliament, he should think it his duty to propose a Clause for the pur._ pose of fii6ng'some time, not very distant, for the payment of . those Instalments. Mr. LUSHINGTON said, the Instalment was to have been paid on the sth.rif the present month, out of the produce of the present crop ; but the Ilia was, that the whole of the new crop had produced so little to the Planters, Illat they were not only rendered unable to fulfil that engagement, but had aftually sustained a loss. Some further - conversation took place, in which some other obje4ions were Made to the measure by 'Mr.WILBERFoRck . ,. JoNys, and Mr. BA. B INGTON ; ,whilst it was supported by Mr. LUSH-. I NGTON, Sir WIT. LIAM YOUNG, Mr. ALExt:NDER, Mr. DENT, and Mr. N. VANSITTART. It was at length agreed that the Chairman,Abuld be clireEted to' move for leave to bring in a 51 11 , to extend the 'tire for the payment of certain suolt of money, advanced by way of Loan to the Mercl , "hts and, Planters of the Islands of Grenada ana'St. Vincent. The House ,having, resumed, the Report wa3 ot dered to be received to.morroW. . The Plymouth Embankment Bill was read a third time and pasxd. The American Treaty Bill was read a third time And passed. Mr. N.` ANS ITT RT said, he had a Motion to make for an Account, if there was no objetlion ; if there was any objeaion, he would only give no rice of his 'intention io move for it. He then moved for an Account of the Loan advanced in-guhequet t 1