The Sun. — London, England, 1813-06-01 00:00:00

yinly ; • bet thlt pro'oeed with that de. liberation which the importance of the question de anded. Air. ri.. - Ev4p, sairl a few words, which were notandible in the guilery Mr. CANNING did not conceive that postponing the disenssion of,thatin%)ortant question from day to day would be productive of any good ;, and,. therefore thought it would be better to proceed at that' time, .as the Noble Lord proposed. •Putting it off toatty more di:Ain't period wonld appear; Out of doors, etpliv; - iletit to a posfponeint . :mt of a decision ~f or the present. session. Whatlhe in tention of other• Alearbers.might he was not• aware N but be „gave nOtice that when the House catnet&thet onsideration of thesecond Resolution respecting the China trade, he should propose that Aire China - trade should he reserved to the Ct . impany for a shorter time than the period speei-. lied in that resolution. But the House could . not proceed to :the- consi , ieration of that. resolu tion until it was first determined whether the dharter was to. be renewed to the CoMpa4yOn the same terms . as at present. Until t his 'preliminary matter was determined, entering into the discus Sion of any .particular branch of the regulations' would he quite prernatnre. Viewing the maller in this light, for his own part, he should postpone Ills alterations on the , second Resolution, until the Committee came to make its report. It the House should decide that the East...lndia Company.were to bare theirChartcr renewed on terms exactly the same with their present Charter, irr,that case he would not . interfere with a sweeping resolution of the house. But on the other hand, should the house deter mine that the Charter of the Company was to be renewed with exceptions and limitations not be fore mentioned in it, then he certainly Would fol , low up the principle on 'which such , a, decision should he made, and he would propose any i.dtera tions which ,he might deem expedient. Certainly the IJoitse could not go on in such a way as to dis cuss particulars, before the general principle on which thew particulars were to rest should be de• termined. Neither could he bring farward an ex ception to an exception before the original excep tion existed. Though it was not likely that the .1 House could get on that night to any of the specific details, yet it was highly expedient that they should proceed,. without delay, to decide upon the fundamental: principle. On these grounds lie should support the motion of the Noble Lord. • Sir JanN NE WPOler, in addition to what had been said by the Right lion. Gentleman who spoke last, wished to observe, that the general feeling out of doors, in the event of any postponement, would be, that:the decision of that question would be put off for that Session. The public not only., would, but they ought to entertain such a feeling ; fOr there Was trot any alternative between proceed ing in the business immediately, and hanging it up tilt the next. ession of Parliament. He could not help thinking, that the proposal for postponement was made by the advocates for -monopoly .; be cause, if it was acceded to, they hoped to .be able to put off the discussion until those Members who were advocates for free trade should have been obliged to retire to their 'different occupa tions. • PoNsowny confessed, that he fur one felt great doubts as to the propriety of coming to a deriSion °upon that great questiott,during the pre sent :sessiOn. The period was ratidly approach 4ng %/ - Lett Oec H uttendanct ‘,/ntid be too thin fur the di:.cttSsion of a question of suet' .importancc:— While these were his .sentiments as to the matter of fleei.s o ; he was far from chinking that the nouse should not proceed now ; Iwe thought that much miglit he clone during that Session, in get ting through n great deal of the detail of the busi ties's, though the house should nut come to a spe cific and ultimate decision." Lord CAsTt.ettitAon .thOuglit. that it was un questionably proper to come lin:lied:lady to such discussions its 'should' tend , to'. bring the different parties to an immediate understanding. Ile vis - lied those lion. Members 'Who represented the Company ti) understand, that, although lie pressed the immediate diseusslon of the . 4itestion in oppo sition to their wishes, lie did not do this with any unfair feeling towards the interests of the East: indin Company ; he thought that • any delay in the matter would ..he more injurious to their interest than to those of any other liiirty.con cerned. EL! was disposed to submit to the Honse. At holier it would not be more advantageous to view•the first Resolution iu the light of a pre, amide to a Bitl, tind therefore, whether it wontl not be better to postpone the coii,ideration of it anti; the other Resolutiow; Sivull..l be di eussed.- , --- Ills intention ‘vtis, to propwie in the Committee, that the eon lileration 01 the first ResolntiOn should be postponed; that they should, therefore begin with the second Resolution, which involved the question of the China trade ; that they shouhl then go on to the other Resolutions, which con cerned tine India Trade; and having discussed all these, that they should.lastly talteinto consi:lera , Con thelir!it Resolution.. • Mr. A. ItortiN3oN thought thAt it vtrottill be e"- trot - 101v illcittat'otkrit to the nation At large, ) Imre tile', tiefs:idt))) tlytt imp')rtant citte4tl))ll delityed till Ow )1w :A tti the• clisqussion of the third ilf-,ultiti•m WO: to ,gorle tt) On that night, he had to the C91":3- rnittee.. Lord CAGTLEIMAGI! said, if th'e Elton. Di rector, and those \rlto the part of tiie Company, wished to postpooy] the,con3hieration of the third pi ovssition to some future day, be bad no objettion to have it deterred. , General (A.scow SCid, that to persist in the 'system of delay would be a vitli death blov to the .decigion of the question during that Session.--- t !mad Lciugliter,) DAvu , ...., said a few words which' were not l'hc House then resolved itself into a Com mittee upon the Affairs of the East India,Com pany• L.Olll CASTLEUPAGI I said, that ns the first Reso intion wits a proposition altogether general, he thought the Committee would come to the consi deration or it more regulady -after havlTl gone. Omn i )) the tither parts. lie conceived that it w ou ld he better to discuss the more particular vropos i t i ons first, because otherwise they would hive the qbestion in all its generality, ts" pOrt.(lieir politieal'powesr. Various infringements by, moving the 2d Ret;oliiti"n, le3vi" "."/: 7 ' 1 ..' dates which fixed the particular time Co r the.' rir.l , .to BienmaOl de those privil e g es at diffei cot p tion-of the system. Wishing to occupy ,i; . rit!ie _i times. li e wou ld now roceed t o spea k o f t h e of the. One of the Committee as 1u ,,,,, 1,10, 1.,..: dauvrs and losses that nr*it arise Art his opiiiiini present system. Those would wish to state . the grounds on which (!:“-il : frua any change in thc loss , .'7s and dangers were of two kindifliolitical aml comaiereial. '.rhe first commercial inconvenience Resolution was proposed, and tn hear ail thi. , , 0 1). jection% to it, then to reply to those ohjectl , ,:u., and to give such further explanation as Might Lc ',vont(' be the Want of steady sales, as at Fesent. thought necessary.. roe second inconvenience would 'be the loss of t 1 ilia advance of Money for carrurers of Indi a en leaving out ,(he ying on their Inisi Mr. J. Smyrn thought that it would be the bet- - „ ter plan for the N o b 1 e 1 - 401 .4 to proceed W i t h out - tics;, which the native manufact joyed a t present f rom t h e Company, and which to come to the House would be able inOre SPeCclili Ist ReSOliltii):), by which ratans wiis the principal sour(e of - encotn•agement to - : - a cOnclusion. . them, Th e thi r d I - ‘ l,' _ Sir J. NEwrowr approved .of beg . inni , ig with, the first. Resolution, which g thmi at once to the vital qntstion, whether there w.is to be a monopoly or nut ; whereas the way pi oeos-, ed,hy the Noble Lord pre-sepnosed the decisi, n of thisquestiOn. The first thing to he, done, to consider whether there wits to be a monopoly, and this being decided, .they were , theu to deter tidne how long tho3elregtdatimes, ‘vhich might be thought the most eNpedient, were to continue. Mr. BATIIIJItST thought that the lion. Baronet might see that the plan proposed by the Noble Lord did not involve the consideration' of the iniestion of monopoly. The second` proposition implied that the trade to China:was to be.conti nued ; and 'the third' did include that which the thin. Bart. Considered of so inuelLimportance, whether the. trade to:lndia was to be opened to the Outlorts.. • It certainly seemed proper that the House should de:.erthine upon the .-restrictions. befdre it determined the time that those restric• tions were to continue. • Mr. CANNING was not exactly prepared to:say; that the first Resolution was the one upon which they could most properly come first to_a decisitm ; though at the same time bethought that it was not proper to proceed to the other propositions, with out first discussing the general principle. Ile thought that there should be some prelhainary proposition by which it was' to be determined. whether•the Company was •to contilme iU its go verning capacity. Without sonic sect elenWniary proposition, it would be premature to proceed to those which were mote specific and particular. For instance, how could they weird, to a deCkion upon the China trade without having established, the preliminary principle to whom that trade was to be secured ? I-Ic did nut think that.they could begin with the first llevilurmi in the shape in wifieb it then was. It was necessary, however, to have in the first instance some tar:nation or de nial of the continued existence; of the Company in its political or governing capacity. He thought that the first Resolution, with very little change, might be made to contain this great fundamental and essential elementary principle. If, however, without pretnisin this indispensable Proposition,. they should he made to proceed i:incediately to the second Resolution, lie would abstain from giving any opinion upon the subject until he should ascertain positively ,to whom the China trade • was to be retained ; whether to the Com pany as a gOverning power, .or as a trading eor. poration. Without. having this known,. it was possible to fell into such an absurdity as. to sup pose that the Company were to be deprived of their possessions in Judie, while they were to have - the China trade secured to them. Ile there foraloped that ..;(14i311,-.111611111 . 1 would :be liken to furnish the House with en elementaryiroposition, which MIS so i diSpenSabhip tilacUSsillg the qttes don intelligibly. Loid CAsTLEREAGII said, that jto bad no wish to press his proposal, if it was against the general sentiment of the (louse. When they should conic to vote upon the second Resolution,. each Member would have it in his power to form in his Owl; mind a conception of the nature of the Com pany ; whereas, if they began with the first Re solution; they would range throueli all the ;e -limit features of the question. Mr. CANNING observed, thut surely the -Coniinittee., about which the Noble ,Lord, had talked, would not be mede sUbstantial "by saying nothing at all about it.. Lord CAsTr.litte:ton, though not a convert to the opinhm .of the Right Ilunourable'Gentleman, MIS perfectly disposed to proceed icy any way Which the Committee might choose, provided only that they proceeded to bu s iness in sore shape or Other. Mr. LUSHINGToN then read the first Resolution in the following- !--rats : ft all the privilegcs, imthorities, 1.111.11 . ,i o .i 7CI the liattNl Comporiy of Aler c...n..i ns hy virtue ally Act or At'4, ,111 rgolatiars, ali'ectirtg tlic same, ! . .b . ..11 continue awl be in Lir.. Cute to l.r. tirnited, exitept as far as the same way T tic anti repealed."' ii':QuitorAT o'3iebted to the terins of the Re solutiolL .oss would be the_ circuitous manner in which the Cortoomy %mold be obliged to supply the m ar k et o f C h i na. If t his last ell;ect took place, tlt e conooptettee- would be, that the Chirp trade. most be carried on entirely. with . bul lion.- The result of this would-be the- total loss of the China trade. The political losses would not be less. In the first piaco., the alletriartoe . of the oatives, which &odd not be supported except as it was now, on thefoundations •of the Mogul Government: The slekt political danger would that of losing the native force ; and the -third, that of being deprived of the Company's auxiliary marine, which had always rendered essential ser vice to tlO's 'country., With respect to the soUree of the present applioaticot for a dalrge ih the La r' India system, the firSt.was, the asserted increase of tonnage. No prOnf hadrbeeogiveo of this nor of the necessity of an increase of .export to the East 'wiles. The next source Of the 'application was, that British subjects bad a right to trade to' all coontriessebject to British power. The argt:- ment o however, could not be.very strong, when.it was eonsidered that the possessions of the Com-.. pony' in India were fit St obtained by purchase, with the view of establishing factories, and what Was afterwards added to these possessions was. gained by conquest, and of .course held by as good a title as any other possesSidn. In the Re sOlorions themselves no provkion was made for the soppiy of. the . salcs at the Out-ports. This should be provided for in the Bill before it passed. into it law.. It had been proved at the Bar of that House, that the exports to India were sufficient' for the demand—that euon of India produce was brought into the market by the present system— that smuggling was prevented : by it, and would be increased by on open .trade. He • had been twenty-fire years' connected with India Affairs, and therefore hoped that the House would par- don him for trespassing SO long upon their aten tion.• Mr.-GrOssro‘thortght that the natural subject for inquiry, before they proceeded to any ehange, was the condition of theonhabitants of India under the preseta system. 11;very person., he believed, %suthd agree with him in saying that their condition at present Was flourishing and happy—that it was not only happy, but in, a state of improvement._ If all then were agreed upon this one great and iendjng point, -would any practical statesman feel it his duty to propose a change without hopes very well grounded, that such a change would lead to ultimate advantage? It was said by suite, that thehappy and fiontishing conditron of the na tives arose principally from the inteiference of the Government,4l this country, in the affairs of lO (Pia ; that it was i not to 'be atoibuted to the too nagement of rime Company: Fhen :alembics ifotiO be troe . , that the Governineat-4404tt0t tiscs-Company did produce such happy results, it was by no mesns logical to conclude, that it this .union were dis solved, the same good eficts would follOw: was eallacitots to say that' in 175.1;, a new mode of GOverninent, for India had been adopted. "The change then introaced was only the r esu l t o t measures which the Company itself' bad before bez• gen to carry into effect. Previous .- to that period it was not possible for the Company to fortn any plan of regular GOvernment, because pre% ions to that , period.they'were not in the possession of db. ; besides; it was A rime of confusion, when . no attempt could be made,' with any hoptoof suc cess, to improve their system of Goverement.— Before the year I7SOprovision had been made for the regular, distribution of josOet‘, and never was any duty ' more faithfully discharged titan it . was by. the peosons upon whom that duty was imposed. The happy sooe of• the natives, at' present, was not to be wholly attributed to the British Government, This change in the admi-' nistration of justice was that which laid deep the foundations of the British 'Empire . iii India, by thus making it to depend upon the happiness of the periple. There ,was a peculiar felicity in the el e cti o n of Lord Corrovallis. He united in an eminent degree -'every virtue and -every qualifica tion necessary to fulfil . the great duty for which he was sent to India. It was intended by the proposed system to separate the patronage'from the Company. hi his opinion, the plan proposed went to defeat its own object. The schools es tablished in this country would not he sufficient to supply . the .necessary number of civil officers. The plan fOr the supply of military officers must be also insufficient ; hot the 'great question upon these t*o pouts was what would be the effect of these,plans, for the supply of civil and Military Officers upon , the popolotion of India? • The effect would be, that the maellinery by which that Go-- vertoneto was carried on )'Quill be left' standino, while' its efficacy was cifectu a lly d es t ro y e d. 'lt was 'important for India that the number from which those who crimitianded there were chpscri, should be as great as possible s a-whole nation was now the store.honse from which they were supplied ; but the plan n o w proposed would esta blish 'that sort of monopoly in one respect, which it pretended to remove in another. Had such a plan been adopted at an earlier period, how many great men might it not have -exeluded from all connection with India, -such as Lawrence nod Clive, and many others. In treating of this clues tion, some persons argued as if commercial - and.: political power should hot be united. The only 'fact of this kind was to be met with in the East India Company. Theories of this kind, though very plausible in appearance, were not always true. In the instance of the East India .Company the practical eifects were at variance with the theory. It was impossible to consider the evidence that hail been given at the bar without being con oioced of the danger of opening the trade to In dia. There %vas something peculiar in the character of the people of tloit country.' Their wants were • Mr. ,30.!?N Ilarcm said that the question was wht;ther the. East India Company was to be con oi to be. annihilated ? and that therefore the House, by its decision, would incur a very awful respOnsthility. He should endeavour to exataine the elaints of the East India Coatpany ; the nature of the Resolutions proposed, and the ,con , equenees'which might he expertcd from their' adoptlon, Flr , t he should exantatet.the right by which the Conipatly held their possessions 'and eontiutted their trade for 22(1 years. The 'first rtharter to the . East India Comp a ny was grunte d by Qsseen Eitmtheth soon after her 'dominions were freed from Kle Spanish invasion. Site granted to tltc Corapatr: liberty to trade for 15 years, with this pAtical view, that during tliat period there .would be time to see whether the tr a de carr i e d on in that way would be advantageous : to the realm. James I. professed himself amicable to the Company ; but the necessities of that mo narch obliged him to give licenses to trade to In dia in violation of the privileges of the Company. 10 1609, King James renewed the Charter of the Company. It was onpleasant to refer to the time of King Charles the rirst, who had also been obliged to give licenses to inttividuals to trade with India, and besides allowed private' traders the destructive' privilege of snaking settlements where the Company had none. On the restora tion of Charles 11. he renewed the Company's privile.ges ; and attempted to establish royal gtf vernment in India; which he found impractica ble. The source of their exclusive privileges wits, . •• . - - preventet: tikenl from feeling thogv luxitries from which- an increase of might he expeeted. TI mattuiltaturii!,, - of England bad been deltitie4; int() a beiieftlr-d?A open trada to India wdidd 'remove all tresses. They seemed tb act npOn tl r 'b 64 that 60,000,000 of .inhabitants AVVaifi Gp,000,000 of customers. Bade aIJ explaP:l4t &odd no more Ite realised with rest ect than with respect to the. South Sca Ati.je:L E'ven‘nilotTing'tpA an the eel ecteecrril ntercial advantaP;es were.%) follow, still it 'he considered iv r itethe.r B . IIV Were fOiloW to the inhaliatatit of .that cowitry 0,4'1 cloinge. This was the principal cousitleretiodli Ile was willing- to allow every uteri , TO the' e. ) , racter of Briti,h inerclutnts ; and if .-DritiAl °6".1 chants were to I , e present in ever; vessettlat..'i to India, the shrift would !Y , u;uclt but it was well known tbut of ti0.ri1,:z.:.t043. ‘%' tilt' he sent into that eountry ;. if tbetiatl, once opened, and that they would be ttrov ,. " situations in which- virtue itself mhzht li? yield. Ivith the exception of Asi;t " 11) "' tish connection Ithd always iiro'leeil r. protracted curse. Such was the case i" such was the ease in Africa. 1 .1 . 1te for ever retiii , t h rl pro ,f ea: the Proauced by such a sistein as that now P r ,"P' 1 1 ... ",,. India. There was one P e tition' acc"'" P ; , rv .4 Company with the excitement of• wars in - Inclia; and who acre they wn ° pool—a Petition for freedom of trade written in the blond ofAft•ica• 'l'lierttn turf i{t 't in({ego planters in 1 7 10 tats t: proof t iers! sheets of a but when he recollected what olood hati heent,i4o, in the latter country, he trembled l!st-t11',111,1,i 11 al consequences shoubi fou,),, I,„fi were l ' Ii ,„ ich heard repeat iotillgp t they would n iit, e that the natives ot I to be attended t o in the present be they could speak „their sentitticti:s .soreclit,i g's e asv .. change id the',:ltresent .systein- It w.ts''i r c . ,e of voice that was now beard, it was. tut to 60,000,000 of men desiring that 6 61 ' 1 ' : e i;tl; dep tent should not be bartered away for any con', l i. so" : prOspects of advantage, however sp;e 1 . 1(1( . . art y: great a question was not to he decided nio:_Pcr,,,C principles t.. but with reference-to. t he exis.ecurai,;. that Peop;e who were now happy. It ! !', e i , e meat now proposed were made, it wow" ' r once for all. 'They . could, -perhaps,- ne ve l l„, i ing , : re-animate the spirit whi;:h - O° W i t i l ere d 101 blessings over lodia, Su l o ng. as they lic . to the present ptinciples, t;lcy . v.'cr c 4 would, .therefore, concur in the first Lls" } ,,,„. Mr. lIART DAVIS said, there was °l ' e 1. oaf 4 which' he believed all concurietl , importance of the measure now Itefor.cl,o"o, From ' th e evidence it was, in his ill it if ,o:;tl,. that they were carrying on their to' vev) vcial r expensive way'. If tti3 m easUrei agreed to, it WOlllti remove from ther2 venience, .and. confine them to Ili,' c e,,,qrik". The Proprietori of IndiaStoeb °"g: ) ! 7 4,,,,t0r: , , to to be the very fiot c al! upon ti).o I,ola t - i give „ ".- exchoive Unite 10- titionei's never Ic:t liight of the•P li O c ' tl l- s tit i c e 7 °'B‘'.- 14 4--it.h.41.6.1...rita.- t rr -4-tteir : petiti onS, pre:ittil a to submit to.on, I . ( 1110 hti At . fOr purpose.. He never CXpec:"."l, be 3 gre- - - 11 1.e(rtatc result of this m ea.stive 0 1) " . *: 10 ,„10, tte" r ' bninediate inet ease. of tra,.lc. The t os eajo'' lose sight of the la‘rge-shat of ti atl' ed by the Americans. He had no doubt . ma ybe'. eiihths of the et;tton- used in this ci"1" outoy imported from India, be;-.idas lolotvek other'artitJlec,. Ile did net like the tel'_"1:061,1 „ot to the China Ch a rter in t he Dill. A 6 e. C g . l x is t e t :l t led beyond the petiod of• 3 c al ,'; P smuggling would not, in his opioloti,svv.'r,i ja ' rated by the c h ange , jf t he Collipa,llY, si tetratiCt'l i b r t e e i wo,id btu benef drat to both ; but it Pally should,- on the conti•at•v, use 1/ ! ( l' ir arid power :to depress the private trlue , ,butt should allow' to the Il • 1 Govertina• e at. nos % .,:bett A power °I - Preventing it, and interferivg th I° ll ‘l l such attempt should be,tuatle on ' " the Company. • ! Pnturs did not conceive I{o, it cc : t j4tio t. dange""S to admit it few private traderi .i1:,, t . : 13 , t1 411 0. • I wli soldiers employed Alter all Lie and read oft-tire subject, the cortclli came to was that the tradelnigh t a t , self anizit.sutficient barrier against thedaniior,..., „ o et.' ou. 'don, was it 11:) a l :t r t ) t ‘ t v ii e c ‘ i . c e n r i tc:isott for (IJ. : the People of this :county a.free trit," it not to be the object of the Legislvu7jeat country to do . good 'or the pretent gencil I t were in their pOiver, instead..of. guard future ages against tr,•ils . , whick occur, and which, it they did oc cur, • bahly be more.ctrectitally ' by thi):'e `[`:; ' immediately pflectecl . thittt the ; could prospective enactment, which for thy'', might be t•esolved . On at the pre,;eitt , ' contendedbv the Company, that the lad' ", British titish m anufactures could not Ile , This, he o:-.3erte - d, depended ou the not ivcs of India to increase their exports of -cotton might he greatly Cotton was produced ire fullY •c t .i r ns ,c Georgian cottons. - .It 3 culture, how e 'r e ,,,' rooted rather tot: exportation to Cll' l '. 4 o l olcr ,l ,lo forward to L' . l);;;And,. . ft had ,he'! T ! stated in evidence, that in one distric t . t he. ' l :4 of the wool • d • v-s ptiven hr pt•o ,ttc et 't a -. r ei tho geo' -party as .the land .rev-enne, •• 1 5 15 r t e i c; ; S e e l: aed free' then .) by t c 't ' o e l l e l , , % . c e re not at ir OWi) pies ` l ri oot • r t a o i he se beneficial to' the na tives of India , t"'t roorbirlf,id was even to he condoned ag: - .1i99„t I , l P,.. l ":llo.P lh t i l eir lest touching it with their unhalloter"bouystivalb should - do it an injury, whiCh it Iv ° " , 0 11!; 11 , I) 4 $ ComptntY col art to repair : Waa this tqe a rtfte upon itself to st Ind as a guar' lo * ,c.to flatiting'sWord over India, 40- P re n s , c w r c i l fro / " rich flow of blessings which dcsce attettlF ► —4lll