The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-04 00:00:00

. , ' ; {t ine i as t o the tittle, it . was pot fit ; the terms Were for the greater part not fit ; and, unfortunate -IY, in these particulars, we were much on the wrong side. H e suppoSed he must look for the tone in the spirit o f t h e G overnment we treated with, and he agreed wi t h hi s Honourable - Friend,that the. spirit Was far s uper i or to the letter. But the more we „., relied upon the spirit of the Governotenr we treat -0 with, 'the more d ep l ora bl e must be our con_ dition, if' the faa was, • that there as'a deter- . mined s pi r i t o f hostility, and that the conti nue d Purpose an d a i m of that Government was- to h Couti - destroy t h e - greatness and prosperity of . t 1 t es tY. ' The re m i g h t b e assurances o ffriendship ia and peace, but let the condud of our Adversary be ex ' Zmined, and it must be too evident to be disp ute d, that i t w a s the settled purpose of France to.subyett . ' the gre atness o f t hi s Country. When a Prelim nary se Treaty was made, it had s been t h e 1 fraai ce that hostilities should cease;that both par_ ties should stand still, and that neither should do any thing to the injury of the other. In th e case °lt Tr uce re l at i ve to Besieged Towns, a stop w as Pit to the effusion of human blood, and the opera_ • Cons o n each side were Suspended : the liesie o Vete not allowed to make new wo r k s , nor the e e : xieged to repair the old ones. The case . was two aa ly simil ar with respea to a Treaty between countries. I t was to b e observed, however, that there were two orders of circumstances which . af a _ fea.ed Tr eat i es ; the one, those events which hap. Paned subsequent to the conclusion of the TreatY; the other, tho se w hi ch happened previous' to that Period, hut which were not known till afterwards. These latter circumstances either party; but if any might not be known to afi'ea the art i c l es of that Treaty, was known to oee Treaty circu ms ta n ce, c a lc u la te d to party, andm the concealed the time of making th e fro other, at it was undoubtedly a fraud, and must set aside that Treaty. The Treaty might he affected i n t hi s way from the nature of the Asti ties themselves i if any articulaz Island or C v as ced e d , the Article consaininithat cession was `'efttlite and certain b the were her Arti I),f_ a more indefinite nutature.re Thus ot , for instance , Delthe Article which euaranteed tho se T err i tor i es an d nons which constituted the integrity of Por ' fugal—if it was found that at the period of making the l''sliminary Treaty, another Treaty had been concluded which altered the integrity of Portugal that was meant to be guaranteed, and which Treaty- . was not Communicated to this Country at the time tat concluding the Prel iminary Treaty; then surely . ? ‘. the House must think , that a Preliminary r teary thus concluded could not be acted upon without dis honour•.. ~... • His Hon. Friend had done no more than )14 duty, in callin g the —attention ta . f the House to , . the situation of „Ough t the Co untry : what had been dune tie , to he stated fairly, ; what was to be done, another questiOn : and whether it was 'p 301 ro- per or not to take any upon this sub- , he measure the House was not disposed to say, but . , , tr'Wilt to have the whole situation_ of the Lout be Dose befor e io Whether any step was to b t a , ~: y could ' be considered ; but if the not now 'f they kuse would not consider the stibjeEt—r Would not decide upon .those steps which ought to be t k • • • v the subleet with an la ens-eof they, would view the, y ' whi;ch seemed to hit fatally to prevail s --..-if --e y ''''''''uld cooperate with, and sanaion measures 'without a t squisite discussion—if they I would gis on V vilt h-a kind of blindness which he could only corn. e ; to the judicial blindness nientioned in Holy b Writ then the existence of the Country could only e e'tiln "t • ed by months. lee them look. . at the Stat e °I. Europe ---there were only two . P • owers re -111;16' i v ; In g, Austria .and Russia ; all the rest were s e ' e a "wed up by the" power of France, and he ea rly saw tbit this Country would only be left tube the last devoured. kwas evidently the put-- Pose of Franc e to aim at universal empire—it was Pose their intention to destroy the Commerce of this C=ountry. He would not take up the tithe of. the Committee further upon the subjed nOw, fretremestances were continually arising out of it, to ~'e occasion to new discussions, and he thought 115 Hun. to new had very fairly brought the sub_ Jeti before the House. al Mr ' 13.4 KER said, irwas difficult to decide wile. ier this Country Was at present in a state of Peace or War. 'rise Noble sabserv e d Lord (HAwrasßrlßY) had Lyon the greater delay which took t o c.onolucling place other bTreaties • but this case must be judged according to • . ' At i th e time the Prelim-1i its own c i rcumst ances.. l' to the sary Treat • Tre aty was communicated House, he • ith th'e term s . was not perfealy satisfied with , yet lie agreed that this Countiy ought . ,to,adhere to tile A rt . was our duty,' P a llY. He ir i ieles of that Treaty ; but •if it it was equally the duty of the other, b , oie not say that any measure ought to e om en i n consequence of the conduit eptsinced on the othe '•. (311 r side, but he would maintain, that if this ahe nt tY vtots called upon to adhere to the Treaty, lie ,°hig,ation vvas equally binding upon France. - • 40 ' ‘lid not call upon His Majesty's Ministers for _ s. Y. disclosure, the responsibility rested with them, - an they must explai n their conduCt when the period lved at which they were called upon for that Purpo se. i' 1.40 rd CASTLEREAGH said, he thought it of 41 Portance that ' ' • 'of blame should go ., no impurotion 4 br os a • . . against His Majesty's Ministers, as arising . tut of the present discussion, He thought, how / ever, that too f c)rv, , . . sanguine a hope ought not to . esas-ur eucou ra ). be d of the successful termination li ti the Negotiatiol'ethe Public be Pared . 0 in . . .n ; ought . to ire_ teas ~. -et, in a manly manner, its failure. He .u. : et opinion, with .respet•t to what had been, t:fgeal. relative to the West Indies, that the condua S ound l s Country had been founded upon the rules of I' o . oti ;, Policy. It had been imined - that events ther ', take place, in consequence of the sailing e "ner of the French Fleet, highly injurious to the stelterests of this mountry. It was impossible to t , Y that such events might not happen, but if ano : 21er view was taken of the subjea, there would t Pl'ear no ground whatever for alarm. Every one , thewkae th at i t was the policy of France to derive all t _ 1 ad vantage she could from her Colonies.—Her v `co gie at C olonies, were St. - ' 'ui%e, th Doming o an d Guada i e former contained a population of 120/aOO kisetlie latter of 86,66,6; 16 . 01 i small pre: portion of Whites. Sr. Domingo it was well knownwas under the Government of the Blacks.-z , it had been urged, that a large foree had been sent out by France, bin could the force sent out be deem: .ed large, when it was considered that the Colony was in a hostile state, and that it was necessarily the ob jeCt of France to restore it to the government of the Mother Country ? We were well acquainted With the operation of an European force in St. Domingo, and must be aware that 30,000 men, , which was the extent of the force sent out by France, was not dis proportionate to the object that was to be<aitained, if that force was to be met by an hostikOpposition; and even if it was not, still, when the extent of St. Domingo was considered, and the number•of garrisons which would be required, the force which . was sent out was not of disproportionate magnitude. It appeared to him, that it could not have been the policy of this Country to have objetied to the sailing of the Expedition from France. This . twist be apparent, if we looked to the state of the French Colonies, as it must be equally the-policy of this Country as of France, that those Colonies should be subjected to their, former Government. Bu.t it - had been said, why suffer so many Ships of the Line to go out ; if 30,D00 men were necessary, these ships were not ? This, if any event did take place, as had been prediaed by some Gentlemen, would be undoubtedly for the advantage of this Country, as it would be then easily found at a dis- tance from its own Ports. He did not see that the occasion called for the discussion of those abstra& questions which had been raised, and which might tend to embarrass the operations of His Majesty's . Ministers, and td commit the House with . respeft to the Definitive Treaty. He also thought that a delicacy ought to be observed in commenting upon those Treaties which affeded other Powers. It was not proper that observations shoull go abroad upon such TrCaties, until the Ncision of those States was known, upon the subject in which their own secu.: tit) , and safety might be involved, and how far they considered themselves to be affe6ted by those Trea ties. He thought it was the duty of the House to inculcate to the Public, that they ought not to form too sanguine expthatiotts. of success in the Negotia tion ; ,but that on the other hand, they ought- not to sink into despondency, and give up all; hopes of success. Let them form a calM and rational hOi)e of success, but let them at the same time be pre pared for disappointment ; let them be prepared to meet that di s appointme n t in a firm and manly manner, and to adopt those measures which the urgency of affairs might then require ; let them be prepared for either alternative, and await calmly the result: There was no reason to believe that His Majesty's Ministers would wantonly renew hostilities ; but on the other hand, there was no reason to believe that 'they would sacrifice the Ho. nour of the Country merely to obtain Peace. He considered it necessary to make- thek observationS, as he thought His Majesty's Ministers had bee n unjustly charged with ,ring contrary to 'the dic taws of sound policy ; and as he thought that the public mind ought to• be kept as clear as possible, from a too 'confident expedatiOn on the one hand, and despondency on the other. Dr. LAWRENCE said, that the Noble Lor'd; and every Gentleman who had spoken on the same side, •had completely misunderstood, and cense. quently misrepresented, the Speech of his Hon. Friend. The Noble Lord (Lord .1-lAwKEsuultr) had replied to his Hon. Friend, as if Iris Hon. - Friend had complained_ of the delay which had taken place in the Negotiation. His lion. Friemi had inade no such complaint, and though ".a considerable delay had take'n' place, notwithstanding that, on the part of this Country, evert .species of entreaty and - even prostration [Dr. LAWRENCE was called to or der by) bird HAWKESBURY, who observed, that the Hon. Gentleman had certainly a right to make any observations which he thought fit upon the conduit of His Majesty's Ministers, but he had no right to say that this Country had made use of entreaty or prostration in the Negotiation, when it was impos sible he could have any information relative to the , subject. Dr. LAWRENCE proceeded :—he only intend - - ed, he said, to argue hypothetically, that such was the inference which might be drawn. Neither his Hon. Friend nor himself, however, objefted to the delay ; he thought it a favourable symptom on the part c.f . His Majesty's Ministers, as it tended to prove that every . thing was not abandoned, but that something yet remained as a matter of discussion : so far he approved of the delay, and wished it might be still longer, as additional security to this Country might result from it. The Noble , Lord had alluded to other Treaties, but it should be recolletied that this was wholly different from former Treaties : in those, some basis was establis,hed as to the rights of other Countries, 'as well as this ; but in the present, no whatever was ,established—all former Treaties were passed. by, and no foundation whatever was laid for the present. His Hon. Friend had therefore, with a proper degree of , jealousy,. called the attention of thq House to this subje6t, when those Supplies were brought for Ward which were interwoven with it, and which it was impossible to vote as .a matter of course. The Noble Lord (HAwaEsaußy) had said, he should be ready, to give every requisite explanation at the proper time—there was no doubt of that, as at that time the Noble Lord must be ready. The Noble Lord (CASTLEREAGH) had drawn a consolation from the French Expedition to the West Indies, which his mind could not acknow ledge—he could, not see that any security, was to be derived to us from any effect that could arise from the operations of that Force. The Noble Lord - had observed,- however, that in case of any event' happening, their Fleet would easily be found ;* if this was to b e a consolation, why was the French Fleet blockaded in Brest in , the course of the War, instead of being suffered to sail? It was now found to be " an advantage that they should sail; but at the period he alluded to, not even a small detachment was suffered to sail from ffirbinir; beds much Hanle then Was due in , those' Ministers who refused to perrnit any part of that Fleet to quit its port; when the sailing of the a hole must have been advantageous tOthiS Coun try ?,, It seemed now, however; to be -forgotten, that this Fleet might do considerable mischief in the West Indies before. we could operate against them ;_ at any rate, the consideration was a very poor one,. and not much deserving the attention of the Houk; He ,did not wish to go much at length into the dis cussion of the Treaty, by . which Louisiana was' ceded, to France, - only so s for as it added to the power of that Country : look at the Colossus with, one fhot upon Amazonia and the:other upon the Mississippi—look at it again, and see it read j• to stretch out its hand to seize the West India Islands. If they looked nearer home, the Isle of Elba pre, sented itself an instance of fraud on the part of France which ought to have set aside the Treaty. Another instanee was Lobe found in the circumstance of the Italian Republic, this Ijad hi , heft° been called the Cisalpine Republic, which was in flid only ano ther name for cisalpine Gaul, but now that the First Consul of France was declared its, President, it had assumed the name of the Italian Republic, pointing, by its title, to the dominion of all Italy. With this Republic it seemed to be a matter of un. certainty whether we were at Peace or War : no stipulation had been made respeCting it, nor was it included in the Treaty, though one of the Allies of France. This Republic formed an instanse of the never-ceasing ambition of France, a subject to which the attention of the Committee ought not to be called in vain. He trusted His Majest)''s Mini sters would exercise every care for the interests and honour of this Country ; the old System of Europe wt 4 broken to pieces, and new relatisns and new ties'imist be formed. They could not proceed too 'cautiously so iMportant a Negotiation, and they ought to give that information to Parliament which would enable that House to form a deliberate judgment of what ought to be done to ensure the welfare of the Country. They ought to request the advice, of that deliberative body to whom were entrusted the interests of the Nation, and who must decide eventually how far the ter mination of this Negotiation was calculated to promote thOse interests. • If, however, His Ma testy Ministers would not bring the subjed before that House , for 'Mature deliberation, he thought that even a longer delay ought to be allowed them for the deliberate discussion of so important a sub jed. He did not wish 'to make any Motion upon this subject ; but the Sop - plies might be voted for even a longer time than was now proposed, in order that Ministers might have all that time which sd portant aNegotiation required for its cotnpletion. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that leaving the Honourable Member who spoke last to recon cile his consistency as he might, in a speech which to his:understanding,in very distind and very:audible terms, conveyed an intimation, that the .Members of AdminiStiation were likely .to employ the two, monthS for which the Supplies were about to be voted in measures of humility and degradation s --- tHere DodOr LA'WRENCE' interposed, and said, that as he had already explained to the Committee the: sense in which he intended his words, he sub mitted, it was.not regular in any lion, Mt:ltiber to take them in any other.) • The,ATT6R-Nex GENERAL then proceeded he said, the Honourable Gentleman has a right to annex..Lis own sense to his own words, but I do not know of any rule of Parliament, or order of Debate which precludes me from annexing my sense and toy meaning to what I bear ; I know no ; reason s why I inn to sacrifice the clear evidence of the organs of my senses, as a compliment to what .may be stated by any other Member to be the ul terior sense in which he wishes his words to be `taken. I say then, that I shall leave him to settle the .account for his consistency, as . he may, when .he says„ that Administration have merited his esteem by the Negotiation hitherto, and yet,' that if it be concluded in Peace, as it' began,. it will • seal the doom of his Country—and it is evident they will please him, if they bring the Negotiation to a rup ture. trust, that they will proceed Snider the same system of Management as they have hitherto done ; they do- not, I shall not ' be anxious to participate with them in the fruits of their con_ duct, in adopting the counsel of the Hon; Mem ber ; they shall have his applause confined entirely to' themselves. It does indeed seem to, me that the manner in which this Debate has been conducted leads to no useful conclusion ; nor has it been held up by Gentlemen on the other side, to any sound-Par liamentary purpose ; as the Hon. Gentleman, and those who are with-him, seem to think. - They say, that the . Administration of this Country have detected fraud on the part of the persons with whom they are negotiating, and that such condud on the crthei side puts an end to the engagement on our part. 'That may be the sense theSe Gentle men entertain of the transactions of the Negotia don between this •Country and France ; but this I know, if it be, they have a manly chity to discharge. The HO. Gentleman Who spoke last ; from the par ticular turn of his expression, has a'rnnnly duty to discharge, and that duty .ought to' find a manly spirit to perform it, by moving an Address to His Majesty, to recall from Amiens the Mini.. ster who has so humiliated his Country, as by this Negotiation he thinks it has been He ought to make some specific Motion on the subjed, that we may know what to do, instead of thus beating the air in vain. I think this mode of taking up this important subject, by piece meal, very improper, and may be attended with serious inconveniences, and, ,therefore, depreCate this sort of proceeding., 'Why these irregular discontents in this Hoitse, These loud complaints, without propositions to remove them, these ex pedoratitins, instead of clear expressions of discon tent ? ' Why not come forward in a manly mariner to the Hattie, and afford the House an opportunity of manifesting its .patriotic feeling upon the sub ject, by T . :jet:ling the Motion, as I appiehend it would,. and setting the matter at rest? Indeed I do hope that this viciouo practice of speaking upon • a stihiret . withatit Intending to prciii6§e a pralcal concinsion, upun a iubjeCt so delicate ;!S. that Of a pending NegdthitiOn, wild be discontintied j it tray increase to an enormous size of inconvenience by indulgence. I airs dot speaking lightly of Parlia: mental.) , duty; it is a Parliamentary dUty to disctiss and advise upon, and adopt or tele& public measure s ; but.nOt by abortiveand 'captious objections to try to mar them, fo- by that praCtice, if it be in ,chilged, the mischief may beeothe incak-olable . ., It has been said; that we are now rejoicing the Fleet of France has got out of port, and that thiS is ilery inconsistent with otir trittmpli at having kept therti in their.. ports, as it were - hernietitally sealed tip: I own I see none.of the inconsistency Which i s lira:puted to us for feeling triumph at both these events; We are not now involved in the Sande situation we were ins k the time the Shipi of France were bloCkaded in their ports. Ai that 'tittle our situation in part of our dominionS at • hortie, was .: Most criti cal, it was , then indeed o h. iously our interest W keep the. French Fleet hi the ports of France, when, if they, came our, they Might. have lighted on a disorganized Country, and have made it more difficult than it WAS; to restore it to obedience to the legitiniate authority of its Goverrimeni it was therefore iidportant then; to keep the Freneh Naval force in its ports; and we kept it there. It has since sailed; I do nut mean to say that the sailing of that Fleet to the West Indies; May not be accom panied with some evils, bUt I say they are there to be met, ;f necessary, and a force is provided to meet them, under the auspicious care of him who is equally 'qualified fur Council in the Cabinet tha Command at sea; that the French Fleet, Shotild it attempt any thing hostile to our interests; is in a situation and part of the' world, where we have nothing to fear=--in a situation in, which, as a- Bri to n, I sh o uld b e p rO u d to he ar ,they met, if that, were neceSsary. If we Must . con test, I should be glad that the aditersary should put himself in a tangible fdrin; and meet us upon the Element on which the glory of Great Britain hair been so often and So signally displayed. I will-not go Over, ,at great length, the terms of various Treaties between various Naticlng i--Not` will I unfold \ every map, nor dhst every doCunierit .pub_ fished on State Affairs for centuries, nor trouble the House with crude observations upon theM .; I will be content with saying, the 'Rothe has no reason to believe that Ministers will put up with a ny N at io na l Indign . s . They may appeal to the House for are.. dit upon that subject, and appeal to this 1-mouse and the Country upon their condua, in the last ,Peril in whiCh we were placed by the perverseness of different Powers, and opposed by alitiOst,the Whale farce of the Maritime PoweroftheTest Of the. veorld.. They ap... peared to be almost all againit its; under the assumed title of the " Armed Neutrality,;" upon which our Ministers diSplayed a fOrti tide; afirmness; a courage; arid a wisdom, which is most honourable to our Na tional Charaeter :., but theSe things are so well fast_ . eried.an the memory .of the-House,that it is neediest lot me to detail any of the partictilard; If, in the ednise of thiS Negotiation; we should lie disap pointed, which I do ti.ot assume; hilt the contrary; as I mist •and hope r but; - if we r„hotild be painted, it will be met with, and tesisted by d prop:7l itiirit—rtOt a th i kei-/.4.,;van Spirit: The Mi.: nesters have none such—the Country produces none stichWhere are they to be Met /with Does the Hon. •Member who spoke lait; see' then; anywherei Does he see any sdch in'the refieetion of a Mirror —l. know. not where to find, any seper4itimati spirit-4 MA to Ministers for rid stiper.:hurnati poWer But whatever Can be. aeCorntliined by in-, .tegrity, by 'political knowledg e , by z e al for the public welfare; by perseverance iri tht t)tirs6it Of by amentite devotion ot , -every itetilty they passes's; to the public service; I kink kir, and confidently trust to see effeCted by his Majesty's INiliniiters; and I think they are entitled to expert the same degree of confidence from every person .whti his candidly consideied the measures they have hitherici sued. Mr. ailCiT said a few • lvotds in eplanaticiN but which we could not distinaly hear. The following Resoltitions were then read by the Chairman, and agreed to That the sum of " 309,5771: be voted for the service of the gegurar in Great Britain. _ _ " ti 0,4231. for the Regular Artily in Ireland.. . " 3 8 6,6511. for the Forces in the . Plintations;• including those in Gibraltar, Malta, Minoica, Egypt,' add New South . _ . 2. . . .. .. , . . . " 6301. for four Troopsof Dragoons: add seventeen Com panics of FoOt; s,uppotted in Great Britain for recruiting thi Force in the Eastlndids. ". 41,1891. for the Fencible Corps in Great Britain,,, 46 13 1; for, the Fencibrc Corps in Ireland. ' " 99, , 641. for. the, FSarrack Departhient in Great Britain. " 59,3071. for thd Barrack Detlartment ift Ireland. " 7 ) ,,i 11. for the iupport of the Foreign Cops in thei servit. +cf Greai Britain." After which the House resumed; ond the Report was ordeied received to4oriow. Agreed to go frit° . another Cothmittee of Supply on Friday: • The House their revived itself into a Committee of Ways and Mean • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said; that whatever difference of opinion might subsist on other modes of raising money for the pub.. lic service; he was persuader( it would be the opinion of the ccunmittee; under the present circumstance's of this Country (without saying any thing now of of any conttaft for a Loan for the public service or the year) that the best &ode or prOceeding foi the present was to make a Loan on . Exchequer Eilks. to a liinfted amount; and, therefore he Moved, ‘i That it .is the °pinky?), of this Comrnittee that toWards raising a Supply grarited to flis Majesty ,the sum of One Million be raised by way of Loan on ache citiet Bills,"—which Motion was put and carried. The Ctiis.yro I L. f.cei of the ExcgOiltrt' soon after appeided. at the Bar, with certain Papers; contain,' ing an Account,' lheWittg the ArhOunt of Pensions granted' on the Civil List in the several years there under.rnentio?fid ;. distinguished under the Head's' of Pensions late Ministers 61 4 Fofdlik'n Courts; Cons: pensation fni Losses of OfEees; arc.` compared With Uttim'ates laid btfoid Polian*nt; and which