The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1822-06-04 00:00:00

? -t; • 1 r ...... • , 1 , . 1 . _I i i , i 1 t ~, I 11- 1 : • - I~=. army in a time of prolotiod peacilt,telsieb could only testi to suppress the coeslitatiosal ►pirit of an indignant people. And in cnnelnsion they prayed fo► a full and equal represesta t;on in the House of Common•. Mr. FItEM tNTLE eontldered the lasguage used by the Petitioners extremely objectionable, sad he should there. • lone oppose the reception of the Petition. The Honourable Member then moved that the Petition be not received. Mr. CURWEN saillheaostld sea as reams why the Peti tion should be rejected. It was quite notorious that mats is that House were bought and scold, just as cattle is Smithfield, and they could not expect the country would abut their eyes at assets a►use.. He *Murrill indeed be surprised sf they did, and be thought that Petition should teach the Hoses the necessity of an immediate refores.--(Hese, beer ) Mr. JAMES said be should vote for meeiviag the Petit ion, fur he saw no reason why it should be reieeted• Strangers were than ordered to withdrew. when Sir J. NEWPORT moved that the Pettlieu be read • • . second time. 'Ube Petition having het...read— Lord LON HON DERRY said. that if it twill he supposed that the Petitioners were really Mayer, is the amatimsais with which they approached the Hoose, and expressed /hose senti ments in moderate language, he elobsld Iwo* *paella to reject their Petition. But it was .quits maisifest that the present Petitios was meant as a reprints* and was coached is language most inappropriate to headdresses! to the Hesse. And if they wished to preserve their own c►aracter sad authority, they must object to being address►d is these trims. He must therefore give hie vote fog the rejection of thu Petition, although be could assure the House that be , slid it with great pain. Mr. CA LCRA FT said it was quite clear that the belies zeal of the Him. Gelidness (Mr. Prmagatle) had placed Ike Noble Lord in a polefulsitostion. He perfectly cos. urred with the Noble Leril In thinking that the expressions of the people, is, conveying their 'devour,* to the Mummy elsould be respectful, and if they eostaised amours or re proaches they should be rejected. Bet the present Petition contained nothing that was not often stated in that House; far they well knew that the money which was takes from the pockets of the people was frequently applied so useless pur. puses ; and the necessity of maintainiss useless places, In order to pleaerve the isiflueare of the Crown, was publicly avowed by his Majesty's Ministers; and it world be very had indeed, of the people could not avail themmlses of the avowal of the Executive Government.—(Cbeen.)--They also knew that their standing army had sometimes bees made use of in a must estriturdinary and suspicious manner; and be world say this, that bad it not been fur the safortusate cow shoot) of the sister country, the Petitioners were perfectly justified in stating that our standing army was mach lots great for a time of peace. Sir R. WILSON "thought that the Right Hen. Secretary was wrong in his view of the subject. It could sot be de- Died that seats were bought and sold, and otherwise disposed of, the conditiou being frequcatly that the occupant was to support Ministers on all weasioas whatsoever. Now this was a Petition for Reform, and the simplest meaning of such a Petition required dist the evils fur which remedy was sought should be set forth with a distinct and clear ex po...gun of the nature, extent, and effect of the evil. As to the standing army, that also was admitted by the Members of the House to be a very reasonable ground of conatilu lineal jealousy with a free people. Mr. C. W. WYNN had not generally scrutinised Peti tions too severely, sad would rather take the spirit of them frotu their general character, then from any strung incidental expressions cootained in them; but the effect of this for bearance had been such, that esseessioss had only served for so many additional steps **degrees to the buldeess of Petitions, until they bad presented the one before them, which, there coil • be no doubt, was designed merely to in. nog the Himite.—(Hear, bear)—Coold any one doubt the latest of such language That places, and the public mosey, sad seats in Parliaseal, had bees wublushisugly used to immerse the influence of the Crown"—(Hear hear, from the Opposition)—" That the army was kept up for sub duing the ennstitutional spirit of the eoustry ?"—(Hear, bear, from the Ministerial Benches.)—Why, if this were true, it was a just cause for rebellsa,-(Hear, hear.) — They could have no buskins to be ethos there—(Hear, bow)—the Goversagent was at an god—there world be just •ual 1111011Wseeuwst•nr . ~ ( Hc ar, hear.)— Again, " That plaeemen formed the majority of the House" —(Hear, hear, from the Opposition)--" That the House were ready to support any Adisisistratioa in any grant or application of the public mane, however wasteful and extras rigout"—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)—lf these (after repeating some other passages) were not an insult to the House, what was ? To state that the House were ready to 'support any Minigere--(Hear, hear, from the Opposi. C1041) however unprincipled or tyrsaeical—(Louder cheers) —and that they were ready to abet the mewl profligate waste of the public resources—(Loud cbeers)--if this was a pro per Petition for them to receive, if it were not grossly sod intentionally insulting to their authority, be could not coo delve the meaning of an Sang. He thought it impossible fur the House to admit the Petition. Sir J. NEWPORT was at all times anxious to take rich a course as wore': leave the widest opening to petitions; is so doing, he felt that it was equally advantageous for the rights of the people and the dignity and authority of the House. It was not by concealing their grievances, but by giving vest to them firmly and openly. that either the people could hope for redress, or the country be free from the danger of turning the public discontent to other and Nr more din germs object.. To a large portiere of the Petition before than he averted entirely; it deelsred in the main opinions and principles which he had often declared in the House. Coeur he deny that the public money, under the 'reaction of the House, was profusely wasted? Had not that very cir cumstance been mentioned over and over again as one of the stases of the present derangement in the public affairs ? That wasteful places did exist, bad they wet the proofs of it its what bail passed this very Session ? Were not several places, which had been repeatedly and vainly brought for ward and pegged out as St for abolition, sod which at last bad been reduced? Would not the people judge of these facts? And how were the House prepared to deny them the exercise of their judgment ? The extra Lords of Admiralty and. the second Postmaster bed been declared as necessary fur the continuance of Commuting, and the House bad ratified the opinion; they were now abolished as places wooly useless. Could' they deny the people the right of judging on cases like these? Weald they not, with good rams, suppose that there were many other places now held with squid tenacity, which were equally useless sod wasteful ? The same as to the taxes. Several of them were at leogils to be relinquished as gross and reitecessary griev ances, which had best over and over again deela;ei to be neressery for the wellbeing of the people. To what purpose then to set up the mere power of govern ment over well.nstablisbed public opiniou. The Howse ought to be cautious bow they aggravated the distress of the people by eclogue to listen to their Petitions. There was one expression implying that the osajoiity of the House were piscrusen,aod the nominees of Petra, of which he did riot approve. Bet they were bound to consider the distress and difficulties under which the country was smarting. In all other respects he was with the petitioners. Whatever opinion he might have of Reform himself, he could sot deny the expression of their opinion of it to the petitioners. It was said that their expressions were too 1111081 r. He thought otherwise. They would have been taunted with the gratings character of their Petition if they did not point out what they knew or supposed to be the defects of the Howse as at pewee' constituted. They must at least shale that the Hesse did not identify the opinions of the greater body of the people. For the sake of real justice, of self. respect, and is decent commiseration for the sofferiugs of the people, even if the Petition were more strong to lan. guar, the House would best consult their own interests by weenie' it. Mr. PEEL thought that his Noble Priced (the Mar quis of Londonderry) had sheen his iodination to give the fullest latitude to the right of petition, by coos iag it to be read a second time, to see if he could Sod any excuse for receiving it. Hsd the Petition been roosisteut with the prayer for Reform, however strong or ill-kedged the expressions, be world have felt bound to receive it. Rut the anfinier—the intent to Insult was nisei. fest, and the term rensoustrasee was conclusive as to that poise. If ii v were to listen to such charges as that Peti tion corta,nt.i, there was SS tad to the privileges of the Hesse. 11 ‘' F ~'~!' tV t . i } li 11 1 i i 1 t• IV. 11131111111Antsgitt the Allusion to the army altogether false. He did wet believe that the army was rained to keep down the eonstituttonal aphis of the people, or that iedivi. duals would he foend to servals it flw that purpose. Hut be saw great clinically awl danger lir refusing to receive the Pr. titbits. 11 bad been held that they were et liberty to reject Petitions enelainine false or erroneous allettationc—(n No, oil!" from the Tressui y Bench.)—Now the fact was that they very fempitellypemented Petit ions knowiegthet they contained false allegation,, and wereobliged tu do so from a sense of duty. He was very smear deciding against admitting the Petition, and V/ au (idly preveated by the remarks of the Right RCM. Presi. dent of the Board of Control. He did not believe with the Petitioner, that taitatiou caused all the distress. There acre ot►er parts of the Petition perfectly true. He had bees in the Howse 20 years; he did not believe that the majorities would have voted for soy grants whatsoever, but he knew that thay bed voted for all which had been re quired et thenv.—(l.sughter.)--He thonght they ought to *hew some toleration to the distress of lime Petitioners. Mr. PEEL explained. The Ilunne dumaed on lbe Amendment. Fur rejecting she Petition ...... 69 • Per UM original Motiou Noineily • __ . „, — Mr. COKE presented is - Petition from the County of Nor folk, for tie reception of which he had not the slightest hope. because the petitioners would speak their minds. He was perfectly agreed with them, as well as the last Petition, as to the eerreptions of the House. That feeling was par ticularly strong in the whole county of Norfolk. Reduced as they we►e to the extremity of distrers, they felt that Mi nisters and the House were callous to the voice of the public. They were driving the whole kingdom to the same rooduct. He felt sure that the petitioners were right in supposiag that if the corrupt pert of the House were re moved, Ministers woeld not have bad their constant majori ties. Not a hand had been held up spinet the Petition iu oar of the largest county meetings ever held there. The Petition was then read.—[lt was the same which. ap peered In our report of the last Norfolk county meeting.)— The allegations touching the corruptions of the House were cheered by the Oppositiee.—The Petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. DENISON ►resented a Petition from the Disseatiag PI uiestasis oif Godslining, praying relief from certain griev ances of maseiesea tutlicted by the Marriage Act—Ordered In be prima. Mr. MARRYATT presented a Petition from the Whole , Gale sod Retail Grocers of London against the renewal of the .West India Dock Company's Charter, on the ground of the additional expense with which their commodities were dimmed is t►eir carriage from a distance so far as the Isle Dogs.—Referred to the Committee on Foreign Trade. Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY presented a Petition from ilouthaspron spigot the Licensing Bi!L.—Ordered to be rioted. ORDER OF THE DAY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Dry for receiving the Report on the Navel and Military Pensions. Lord A. Kuritt.tou wished to have precedence for the Scotch Juries Bell. He complained of the delay of that and several other measures of the Lord Advocate, especially tie Bills for currying into effect the recommendations of the Commission era in reducing the useless offices of Scotch Judi cature. The LORD ADVOCATE explained the difficulties which lay in the way of reducing offices amounting altogether to 4 or 5,0001. a-year, in which indemni ties were to be provided for the holders, and proper substitutes to whom the duties were to he trans ferred. Sir J. MACKINTOSH thought that as the Lord Ad vocate was obliged speedily to leave towo on husiiress to which it was not necessary more directly to d iode, in equity and propriety the Chancellor of the •Exchii-tar ought to ~, v ive way. The CRANCILLLOII of the Eicticiattxt sta -the subject upon which he had moved the Order of the Day had been already postponed three times— tbat as it involved deep public interests, it was on that account also entitled to priority, and moreover it had been understood that the discussion should come on this day. If the Hon. and Learned Gen. Unison chose he might give way, and let the Scotch Junes Bill some on first to-morrow. Sir J. MACKINTOSH thought that the subject of the Criminal Law, which he was to bring forward to. morrow, was in no way of inferior importance to the Scotch Juries Bill. After some furt her conversation between theCHAN. CELLON of the EXCHEQUER, Sir J. MACKINTOSH, •nd Mr. KENNEDY, the Order of the Day was read for,receiving the Report on NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS. On the question that the Kep.irt be brought up— Mr. CA LCRAFT said, that in consequence of many communications which had been made to him re specting the salt tax. he wished to state some parti culars to the House. When the Right Hon. Gen tleman proposed to remit 26 out of 301. a ton of the salt duties, he (Mr. Calcraft) received it with much gratification, yet heexpresseda doubt whether the fisheries would beableto bear the additional duties which would fall on them in consequence of the removal of their present exemption. They were now to pay the common duty of two shillings • bushel. The communications which he had from the fisheries assured him that the trade could not bear the ad ditional burden. He understood that the manu facturers of oxide muriate of lime were to be charged with the added duty—they would find the diltereoce of 3/. which they now paid fora license, and the levying of duties which would come to 3 or 4001. a year. He advised the Chancellor of the Ex-, chequer iu remit►ing tuxes is relieve the distresses of the people, not to be so anxious to throw other burdens upon them in lien of them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that there would be no change in the salt duties till Jannsrv—so that the fisheries could not be ef fected. There could be no reason for continuing the discussion on the details before the whole mea sure was submitted to the House, which would furnish ample opportunity for uuy suggestions. Mr. D. GILBERT pointed out the necessity of allowing a drawback to fish exported to foreign markets. The Cuesicst.boa of the EXCHEQUER thought that he had before been understood when he 'teed that it was his intention to propose scum measure in the nature of a drawback for Batt, which had to compete with foreign fisheries not chargeable with any duty. fir H. Faaausom said, that the duty of 2s. was more than the fisheries could bear. The barrel of herrings had nut fetched more in the last two years than from 16s. to las. The barrel of fish required for home consumption two bushels, for the Medi. te►noean three bushels. and for the West Indies four bushels. The wow duty of 2s. would be equally destructive to the pilchard and herring fisheries. Mr. GILINIPILL was satisfied with the assurance •f the Right Hoe. Geotleottan th.t the subject should uuderso consideration, sad a drawback be allowed, otherwise it Irobld be impalable for the fisheries to bear up against the tax. charged, as they would be, with an ed imiereas duty of 13 per cent. on the price of the article. Sir J. filasypeao complained of the practice of taking the tax on salt the cubic foot instead of by weight. whichJv" had operated most in juriously during the last three years. He thought that Ireland ought to receive some equivalent to the remission of the English leather tax. Mr. Hums observed how contrary the acts of ministers:owe to their profenkons of economy. lie remarked on the sbourdity of keeping up a sinking , fund of five millions when a reduction of tszes was called for all over the country. Why would the Right Hon. Gentleman delight in de viating front principle for the sake of expensive and complicated machinery in the public accounts ? Since the anion of the Exchequers he had borrow. ed ttO millions to give to the Commissioners of the sinking fund at 63, by which those Commissioners had been paying off at 63 and 66. He himself had submitted a statement to the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, explaining this to him, and no alteration had taken place. Why Hot put the finances on a solid and permanent footing? He concluded with Moving a Resolution to that effect : That it is expedient to take from the sinking fund as annual sum equal to the marast of taxes lo be remitted, in order to relieve the distresses of the country, instead of raps. In money by. loam or ammity, as proposed by Om Chancellor of the Exchequer, for tbeparisent of the Naval and Military Pensions." •Mr. GitENFIILL said, the question was, if the success of the amendment would not quash the whole of the measure of the Right lion. Gentle nun ? He did not know how that would be—[We believe some intimation - in the negative was given from the Treasury Beoeh].—However, this was plain, that if loans were to be raised, an d any mo ney remained in the hands of the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund, they could not apply it better than in buying the loan, whether in long annuity or any other way. He gave notice, that in the next stage of the discussion, if the ameudment were lost, he would prepose the adoption of a clause to empower the Commissioners of the Sink , ing Fund to lay out their money in the loan. At present they were restrained to purchasing iu the 3 or 4 per cents. console. Mr. illtOnOtt all entirely agreed with the amend ment for reasons which he had too often declared to make it necessary to repeat them. He trusted this motion would be carried ; of collier, not ex pecting that it would defeat the less objectionable parts of the plan of the Chancellor of the Exche quer. If it were to be lost, then he would sup port the clause of his Honourable Friend nest him.—(Mr. Greafell.)—He thought that some at tempt should be made to bring the subject to more exact adjustment. They were not so wide asunder as was supposed. The Right Honourable Gentlemau opened his plan in one way; but by a very inconsiderable admission suggested by his Ho nourable Friend, the plan would exactly fall iu with the views of both sides. The plan was this: There was at present a set of Conunissumersgoiag on with their operations in reducing the na tional debt. The Right Honourable Gentleman wanted to create another set of Commissioners to go on with those operations in a contrary direction . sazto ,Bair functions were similar, though one set were celled Commissioners, ana tee other were to be called Trustees. While one set were to work in reducing the national debt, another set were to be equally active in increasing it.—(Hear, hear.) —That was the principle of the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman. Why not, instead of this olierose and very cumbrous machinery—and to save the Dew Commissioners the pain of being brought into the world, and all the painful accidents and incidents which were likely to be subse quent upon their existence—(in any case there must be great expenses incurred on account of them) —why not, instead of this infant cor poration of trustees, at once recur to those al ready in existence—already gruwo up—i• full enjoyment of their vital functions ? There was no difference in the office and the duties. The only difference lay in the name with which they were to be baptized. There was no difference in the pre vious character of the officers; they were to be chiefly Ministers, with the Governor and Deputy Governor of the Bank of England. They were all of the sate taste with the old Commissioners. Make the Trustees thou out of the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund ; that would be one grand step to. wards simplicity of operation. He defied the Right Hon. Gentleman to ohm any objection to that measure. Next let tho Commissioners and Trus tees meet on the same day, and an the same place or office; give them the power of buying this annuity, and then the problem would be at once solved. The operations would be vastly reduced in expense and trouble by this simplifying of the machinery. Why need they have two sets of persons to do that which would be as well ef. fected by one ? Why so much expensive and de grading mummery ? „Why one shilling of expense additional? There could be no reason for it ex ' cept to save the credit of the Right Hon. Gentleman in riot touching the Sinking Fund—when all man kind sow that the resoiirces of that fund must some way or other be taken up by the plan. He would support the amendment, and if &list were lost, then the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Grenfell.)— He advised the House to put down the delusion at tempted upon them, so daring and absurd, and by which they would be wholly disgraced if they wil lingly aulernitted to the juggle. Mr. T. WILSON was of his former opinion, that the Plan and the Sinking Fund were opposed to each other. He could nonsupport the amendment, however. Colonel D►vtxs said that the best plan would be to place the Sinking Fund in the place of the Ali nuitonts ; the benefit of the loan would then accrue in 45 years to the Sinking Fund.—(Hear, As to 400,000/. which the Right ton. Gentfetnan proposed to withhold on the remission of taxes, there could be no possibility of that increase iu the additional charge for half-pay and annuities, the reason alleged for it by the Right Htio. Gen tleman. It was impossible that there would be - any increase in the present state of the arnic a The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was for some tine inaurtikte in the gallery. The Right Hos. Genileniau war under/400i loveaclucht by stating, that he should have up objection 10, ate inti.ulectioa in the Bill of a clause em bodying the iruggesti:.o of the Hon. Member for Penryn (Mt. Greefell,) for giving to the CAiwirsissiooers fur the Re- 4`tr. deniption of the IStational Debt poster to put us them aunuitsra.—(Cheers from the Oppowtion.)-41e was disposed to accede to the suggestion, becanne be did out think such an arrangement was at all in opposition to the principle of the Sinking Fund; and be should take the liberty of stating his ressaos for entertaining that opinion when the clause came under their consideration. Me RICARDO confessed that he bad been much sur. prima at what be had heard that main from the Hon. Member for the City of London (Mr T. Wilson). The rfiect of she pica as it was now proposed, was, that one set of Commissioners was to be sent into the market to sell stock on the public account, and another set to purchase the same stock.—(Hear, bear.)-.-The Chancellor of the Ex chequer. if he understood him right, intended to bring a clause into his Bill to compel the Trustees under the prevent plan, and the Commissioners of the Sinking Feud, to deal with each other iu the purchase and sale of those muskies. When first be brought forward the proposal for providing for the payment of the military and nasal pensions by au. nuities for a term of 45 years, the Right Hon. Gentleman void be was not so yonag is office, be was not so inexpe. rieneed as to propose such ■ plan to the House before lie had felt his way, sad ascertained that he could carry it lino effect. The next time the subject cause under cellulite...lion he told them that he did not expect to be able to effect the °relation at the rate of 1,500,0001., which was the sum he bad a► first proposed. Aad now it appeared that he was toot able at all to give effect to his first proposal, and therefore be came forward with another for rifertiur hie object s by appointing Commissioners to sell sushi. ties for t►e pu►pose, which annuities were to be pur chased by the Commis/Muera of the Slotting Foud out of the monies in their hands. Could any thing be plainer than that suc► • plan must operate in diminution of the sink. ing fund?—{Hear, bear )—So it was, that for a long time the Right Hon. Guillermo' kept up the delusion of a sink. leg fund of 16.000,0001.; but be had since, though tardily, acknowledged that he bad only a ainkiag fund of 5,000,0001. sad he (Mr. R.) did expect that he would et length also tardily acknowledge that the real Sinking Food was only 3,000,000/.—(Hear, and laughter.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he could Dot conceive that it was really a matter of any great consequent whether the business of those anouilies was managed by ose net of Commissisners or another ; and he apprehended Mho stronger objection could be made to the proposal than that which turned upon what set of Gentlemen should administer it, that would not be thought a sufficient reason fur depaitiag from the plan. The liononrable Member fur Portarliegtou (Mr• Ricardo) had entirely mistaken the intentimi of his Right Hon. Friend, which was, Instead of compelling, to leave it optional with the Commissioners of the natiooal debt, if they shoold think it advantageous, to deal in these annui ties for 4?, years, rather thee in the stuck to which they were sow limited. That, be thought, iasteed of so larder meet epos the principle of the sinking fund, would be as exteosion of its operation really to the advantage of pub lic credit ; for, in his opinion, the Commissioners ought never to have been excluded from Jealiog in any stock whith came lists the minket. These annuities were is the nature ere saw stock created and thrown into the general market, sod the Winning of leaving it to the option of the Commissioners ee toe side whether the would sell, and of those on the ether, whether they would purchase this stock, would be to raise it to its proper level in the market. His Right Hoe. Friend had been taunted with hawing said, " He was not so young se to propose a plan which he had not the means of cerrying jab effect." The truth was, that one greet com pany, the Routh lira Company—(Hear, and tangibly/o—bad expressed their willingaess to contract; but on farther consideration of the terms, after the phis was proposed is that Howse, they had thought proper to alter their mind. So that his Right Hon. Friend had at least a just right to nictitate epos the acceptance of his plan, as had been pro mised when be opened it to the Howse. He did set see how the Horse could eosisistently adopt Ibe proposition of the Honourable Member ter Aberdeen (Mr. Hume), having twice before rejected it; but he did think great progress would be made towards the mimeses of the operation by adopting the suggestion of the H &hie Member fur Peary' (Mr. Grenfell ) Mr. CALCRAFT mid, paresre subjectis was • good motto, sea nee upon which be should •Inayv be happy to Noble Lord and the Richt Hon. Ogg- Ilemsn were coming daily more and more near to what they (the Opposition) had every day been peening them to adopt. Ile more veryda they did so, the bette r ytheyappeoacbednearer should toth bese be bik pleased.iacfued He and assist therefore beg leave to defend the Chancellor of the Ex chequer from the apology of the Noble Lord.--(Laughter.)-- It was not the Right Honourable Gentlemen, but the Noble Lord himself, who, sot baring properly informed himself upon the subject, came down to the Homo and stated that there were pewee ready to take the contract; and afterwards, when it was diseoivT4l that it was not so, the Right Hon. Castleman was compelle. l to come down and announce the failure of the scheme. The Noble Lord therefore it sins who had led the House astray, himat:!iisv ing been deluded by an offer from the South Sea Company, a body, by the by, whose name was associated with welly ominous reeolleetious.—(leuehter.)--Coocriviog the opera tion of the plea proposed to be, is effect, a diversion of the sinking food, which it wouldbe more advisable to esecute di rectly, iustead of bringing itsbout by circuitous and complex means, he should vote for the proposal of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Home) ; and if that were rejected he would then vote for that of his Hon. Friead, the Member for Penryn (Mr. Grenfell), to which it seemed there would he no objection, to enable and authorise Ministers to do that which he wanted to compel thee to do. Having effected that, and secured • reduction of taxation to the sanoisut of 2,000,000/., although the Ministers had at lest denied that any such reduction was possible, and had ail slow main tained that it could produce Do benefit to the people, no relief whatever to the country ; be did sincerely believe that it would be foiled that the people would feel themselves much happier, with cheaper salt, cheaper food, cheaper shoes, and • reduction in the vices of other articles, than if they bad been suffered to reneftio in the same state in which they were at the commencement of the Sessioo. Sir F. BLAKE said the whole argument and nictitation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer went to prove, that after subtracting 4,000,0001. fiom his Sinking Fond of 5,000,0001, there would be still 5 ,000,00 ( 3S. r emalning.—(Lnughter.)— The reason why the Right Liam Gentleman preferred the connotes' machinery of his own plan to the straight.forward proposal of the Hon. Member fur Aberdeen, was, because he wished to "Isla the S taking Fund, until noise future opporluwity should occur fur seizing epos the whole. That was the true ground of his pretence of realizing for the beer& of posterity. TM HoMe divided, l'ae numbers being—. For the original Remoluiios Bl For the Amends Sent 54 MajecitY against Ike Ameedenent .. 27 Os our return' to Cele gallery we found Mr. HUMS 00 I tin few, and when the cessation of the noise, occasioned by l the rushieg of strangers into the gallery, permitted us to r,s/lect his observations, he appeared to be speaking iu support of another amendment. Acco►diag to the proposal of the Right Hoe. Gentleman, the Trustees were to receive with, one band 4,900,0001. in the first year, and to give hack wi th the other hand 2,600,0001. He should sow propose to mollify the operation, by taking from the slaking fund 2,100,0 401. in the first year, and a proportionate sem, accordoug the reduction io the scale before the House, Is each so eceeding year of the first period of finer* yeses, cad by pa Our to the co.Costmisaionera of the Sinking Feud the balance t setweea 1,000.0110/. and the sato fixed for each year in the wale be had before alluded to, of the remaining 30 years. The effect of t his proposal would be, that iis the first 15 years the Comm issiouers would have to advance to the Chancellor of the El:chequer 16,027,000/. sad in the remelt oder of the teem they would receive 44,100,0001.; that i• to say, they hoed receive beck iu the latter period lb* w hole of the sums t►ey bad advanced (Weise the first 15 years, with compound in tercet os the same. He cuucluded by usoviat as an ammo est— " That for she purpos c of apportioning the Military and Naval Pensioner, (=Awe/ iably to the Revolution of a Com mittee of she whole House on the 3.1 May last, the Commis sioners for the Redempti on of the Natinont Debt be autho rised and required is ad sauce, In equal quarterly payments, on or before the lbtb J armory, 'Sib April, 15111.1111 y, and !IA October in Mete yew. ILe suns respeetkely aimed fu , the seat 15 years ea the angered Liat, the first paysteat to M the 15th October 10113; sad that after the 15th year, the Leda Conssiggiootes of hie Majesty's Tosasey be galls. tided sad ettisireS to Fry to the laid Commteeiudee l the tiff. &awe 'Degrees the steins waned for each year in the lad List sod 2,1100,0001" The CHANCELLOR of the EkCH EQUER °poised the amendment, as beiug sabstautially the sante as that which the House had just rejected. The amendraeat was then negatived titithost • division. The second sad third Resolotisort were Him agreed to. On the fourth Reaulotios being moved— Mr. GRENFELL mowed, as as amendment, " That it shall tad may be lawful for the Corentissione t s for the R. demptiutt of the Fissional Debt, if they think I. t cxpeldeol, to apply any amain placed to their aerostat, to thr puerility of say *enmities ow the said sem of 2,800,004/. for the term of 45 years, which the Trustees may think it wit isabk 1, sell; sad ako to purchase say other annuities created b, Parliaasest.' The CHANCELLOR of the EtCHEQUER hae:ria peened his assent to the amendment, it •as agreed is wit out a division. - .Oa Ilithleso lotion being pot, " That 13s. oat of the I . gelearmagwa: si.btsille:aßwaßedrempa:eyliartbsatleoirdnio,raire: ee:itoofulmarubesishekeil:owerhheakrnicuht,,:.&..,itzstrill:::. atemoseteb,mo::::.tatircougdnitm:duacaieruwkitase:arEtentrNihirisatitiliemiettallirdasemswittiettratielmadsxsamenwowflastiseertasatrziwhedisiebs:aucti:haotdd.l.ishlbiTelrialeielbftreir. p„:".1 t eu a r r i r: the e p le : t 7 e,....w ii h ia e r;i : i . was, the poor people is the country, ieodpmgfeeiwbo would I .. year. The mock re - fleeted their s ell s l : l ibit id fo . :e ff :h r at by per th they killed before the close of the fleeted on this subject the more isostrinced he ors het i . would be better to take off the whole tax. 'fie; I I henewpooucr convinceda CHANCELLOR e th E re tio fo e aß mb or e u ed ehe E I:H oi" E n clu d ea R Than t he, , h, which e it . wu HA prtep e ose li d r t e es retain s a ll i ou ess id i o r n e ly t produce mi:l ttt o,s.a 2Z id : tr t h Pl i r " i i, i ' t a year; which might be raised, if it were neceesary for Ole revenue, in some other way, so as to press less heavily is whole of the duties on salt should cease nod deterrainef sod after the Sib October, 1021.°—(Loud cheers.) ros en nreaagement having bees agreed upon for the nunnion of a cerisis amount of taxation for the re . .ief of the cowry , elk-ratios could be made in allot arrangernest without break ing down the *bole *latent; for any debtiescy that anoint be created in the revenue by soy such alteration must he made good either by the imposition of some sew tea, or, which would be much worse, by neereachiag on the inie. grity of the sinking fend, which it had been determined to keep up—(Hear, Year.)—lf all the arguments which !id . been urged on the other hide as to the effect of the psa.iou scheme us the sinking fund had any thin of weight is them, they went to strengthen his ease ; for in properties is the el itist to which that plan operated in doniendion of the sinknie food, it became them with the greater pertinacity to uphold the remainder. With rented to the particular proposition of the Honourable Member, he must oats, that he did Chink that the remission of 13s. out of lbs. would give to the gametal consumer all the benefit ofa total repeal —!Hen, hou.)--In briogiog !.round his [dim, he bad calculated on an increased commniption by the reduction of the duty, which would raise the p educe uf the duly retained to at least 300,0001. which would be lost to the psblie by the primal of the Honourable Member. lo the time of William 111. the duty was 3.. ed. a bushel; and when they considered the peones rate, and the proportion in which every other article had risen in price since that xrieed, be was sure they wonla see that it could hardly he felt as a tax by the coosomer. Mr. BROUGHAM congratulated the House on the one lights that were breaking in upon them with respect to the benefits of • rentiesiesa of Mistime, from which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the beginning of the Session, not only deuicd that any relief euuld he reflood for the people from a resninsion of taxation, but he on! farther iliac asynoan besides had ever gone in that direr lieu ; sod yet now he came forward sod descanted an the beoefit to be derived to the country (torn its being relieved from a part of the salt tax. He concurred with the Hos. /sin:Minn !or Cumberland (Mr. Curium) la thiotior, that it would be far better to take off the whole tax, even if it should he a y to supply the sows sought to be retained from some other source; and his Demme was, that it ate too much to keep op the exp.-rused machinery of cullecii.in for so small an moist. The expense of collection in Ent. land was 34,111001., sad is Scotland, where the pro. dote of the tax was iholy one fifteenth of the non it yielded in England, the charge for CitileClloll was 21,000 t He anticipated, therefore, that the expense of collecting even the et•iluced tax would be little abort of 30,1109 f. Another objection to the propood arrangement, hide. Irodent of the expense, wan the patronage it left to the Crowe. Do what they would to alter the salt law, modify it as they chose, in order to adapt it to the change of circumstances, be m oai lei a - rotate to easel that w i ggle the law remained it would be Impala* nol le retain a great put of the most objectionable potting of th e j:ithecue Laws, which was die worst part of the law of the coVary. None who had not seen it in open. lion, eca kt b iu n a s ; idea of the suares which it spend is the ~,,,, of t h e row ,. who came within the sphere of iis iolluence, and of the o pp,-ession which resulted from its practice. Would they the* keep up the odious system merely to keep alive a branch uf revenue, according to the calculation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, not es ceediog in amount 300,0001. s year, which might he better raised in some other way? To do so was a most so•iee policy in point of expert', and moil unjust to the cossuy in a coostitetionsi pond of view. .. The Marquis of LONDON DERRY saidlet would rut it to the House, whether the scope of his Right Hen. FrierA's o f taxes, argumentshad don sotformer b, n which the statements of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been calculated to excite i• the country, by tesdiug I. the iudulgeaee of the hope that any relief could be demo , c' d c ie 3 :::7 2 t . o ° l l h i e th r e em all ov iiifet al of o t f he re rrel i rs ' in lion that could otbea a gricu be effected ltureofthe with safety country byan, l r o public educti cr or eti t t a ii —xi. (Hear, bear )—His Right Hamlet-able Friend's iillealion vas only to raution the House and the tousle, sge,ast being misled by the Hou. and Learned Gentleman's statorkentri into the fallacious opinion mato the extent of relief that (road he drawn from a remission of oaten, by *hewing the homy"' bility of reducing taxes to such an smonnt witloott an ores Roark open the Sinking Fund, which the Hoc awl Lamed Gentleman tacitly sanctioned. They were accused of roam ing the Ils. a buehel salt duty fur the purpose of keeping up tbe patronage of the Crown. But what mu the fact? 'rho only officer* that were to be retained were those at the pit's mouth, and nut those who superintended the distribution over the country, sad the charge (or their 'alone' end other expenses would sot exceed 7,01101., or at most 10.04111 And as fir the pairoisage, the whole of thote app.' time''' were made be the Conannesioners .1" Excise and not 1.. i• i Treasury.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was impossible to take ill •. i Is. from salt, unless they retained the whole of the lead. , tax. Unless they proposed to retrace all their steps, lo abandon all their former Resolutions, the House could no. secede to the propositions of the Hon. sod Learned Geody map, sad if it did, be would warn them of the ecomiequenc. , he (Mr. B.) would soon bars a portion or the interest. Mr. DAVENPORT opposed the envodment. Mr. RICARDO said, if he understood the °bin -tins of the Chaucellur of the Exehrqner to the •mesdmest of the Ho. . noorable Member log Cumberland, it was this, thin it "No ., ' had to such an amount of reduction me must be male go d from some other source, or it would trench upon pohl , ‘ Icredit. Now, he thought he could twilit out an easy rope ' dicta by which the &Initiative might be avoided, which •.iii '• thien—the Right Honourable tnetitlemaa said, that his A ; I amity St keine wsa out an infringement of the priecie te '' the Sinking Fund ;' be would advise him, therefore, ti. extend his ansuities instead of forty-Ste to fifty 0 ' sixty yeses ; and be would venture to say that th , would give him a sufficient sum to redeem the whole of i!. • ash tax. Mr. K. DOUGLAS purported the origisalreselstioa• _. General GASCOYNE thought th e reteettos of the V would be much mote productive than was generally istsgn r from the inc. eased rousumptioa of salt. He was surprin' how any geolleaashwho bad voted for Ike lotion to redo, I I