The Sun. — London, England, 1802-06-01 00:00:00

lie 11- hc o 5 U- Rev • I gt°n A Serin On on Sund a y wtts far from I.4lPrehending the whole duties of a Clergyman was also 'still" more bound to instrnEl the ig norant in the principles of religion, to comfort the 'l,ifurtunate in the hour of affliction, to raise the de- Vonding heart at the approach of death, and to pro- M ote the interests of morality and religion by the ex ample of his life ;Ind conversation. The immediate eff't!t n inon -residence Would het° div ide the pittances t ° he Cler gy i nto st i ll smaller portions) by halving '"1 With Curates; and infinitely to. increase the timber of poorer Clergy, by th e mu l t ipli e d CU rac i es. at must ineVitably attend on the multiplied plurali ti ,e,_s• Mc. SIME ON concluded with saying, th a t S hould h e could no; exp:..Ct that his argum ents B° uld have suchi influence as to carry the House ; 3 " ) rig with them, yet he was satisfied- in haVing, : a ught the subjed into discussion, and called , the attention of the Public to a matter of stich • Pottance. t h 7'he ,CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, tvilleanttsio. large a ,proportion of the speech of the . Hoo. e-Man was so inapplicable to the Motion for e Speaker's- 'leaving the Chair, that he should t rna ke bur a few-observations upon it. He Wished :p re call to the House the circumstances under th uch this measure Originated. It was not because b fi ere was a great increase of non-residence, but ( c ause there was a disposition newly arisen in In_ diners to enforce the Statute of Henry the Eighth. :fine Gentlemen in that, part of the Country where ._. ls us d e is t P o osi a t s i k on was most prevalent, came to that ;hat h e protedion for Clergymen against must call an unwarrantable' proceeding.- d ' i l „ lne r°us discussiOnS . took place as to the means 'of g this, and the House at length agreed to a t • -a stire which was certainly liable to great objec al:n' "arriely, to suspend the existing Law. They r r eed to this however only until a system could be t ° l ll 'ed for the purpose of effeaually regulating :se proceedings which had become a ground of n"Plaint4 and had been made an instrument of op- Pre s • - f To efeduate this purpose, the Wishes I'3; the House turned, he believed universally, to s his Right Hon. Friend (Sir \TM ScoTt), distinguished Gentleman, whose motives were, no D ° lll4 , most, p ur e,. and what he did could only ori '„,'"ne from a s ense o f pu bli c d uty ; f or not hi ng 'e could induce him to bestow his talents and `"Ile up on a subjea, for which, indeed, his experi- T c e emin ent l y qua lifi e d hi m , b ut w hi c h was a tas k that WaS most lid)orious.: he had, however, framed h - b 1 - 1 , 13 i1l fo r t hi s purpose , w hi c h t h e H on . G ent l eman SrmtoN) indicated his intention of opposing, ;filch he could not have supposed, for, unless his ec"lle&iori—erred; this very measure had been a,p -t-i„F°7ed i„F °7 ed at a former period by that Hon. Member bs - ' 4l sell. Why then the Case. stood thus-The 14'"easure was one that had been called for by th e - “ m 'se d , and the question was, whether the H o u se "I not now entertain it ? NOW, he would .ask, w i neth er th e speec h of th e Hon. and Learned Ge n _ . t 'ealan had changed the sentiment which 'had ' . been 4a lung and so gienerally entertained by the' House, 4 speech 'certainly_fuil of learning and ability, 'but khieh w ent chiefly to particula r parts of" the Bill. . t said, i n d ee d, t h at h e o bj e a ed to the principle h e the Bill. No o n e h a d a hi g h er op in ion than ly kid of the veracity of '!:is Hon. and Learned t b! t nd, but h e s h ou ld not have known that lie so t i' l l e , ° e( l , by some of th e argum ents he urged, espe_ c those which he made use o f to s h ew t h e pd_ vr i .of part s o f the provision of the Statute of Henry lv "I. I n d ee d hi s Hon. and Learned Friend said he Z s a friend to some parts of the Bill, and yet lie ei deted to the only mode by which he could give ." 0 to the sentiments of "favour which he enter tol4ed to the Bill, in contradistinetion from . those ! which he objected, because a Committee was the 4 ill Y stage i n u hick that could be done. He al:Prehended that, properly speaking, nothing 1 ,,,,? r t of a radical Objection to the whole of the i,;" c iPle of the measure could be an adequate "cemen t for voting .against the Motion for the - 41 1 .' 1 'AkEft leaving the Chair—That of thinking the 4 11 1 so had as, upon its' principle, to be incapable of _r'Y amendment that might do away the leading oly- Jiions to it ; this appeared to hi m to b e t h e way Of considerin g this measure.—There were indeed D ints connected with this Bill in the consideration th e great objed of it, nam e ly, t h at o f grant i ng Iv lt hief from hardships, which wer e om i tte d, an d t h ey I. 'e - points which not only humanity an d c i v il Polk Y required to b e considered, but which the ke rest of Religion itself demanded, and ' which C i f u ld not f o il, in due season, t o obtain- the attention 2te House. He agreed with the Honourable f e c 2llemen in every thing they said on the sub to, of common Informers ; but that was not the Ii PL9 on whi c h h e w i s h e d to say any more. He t er 3 n ow comi n g to another.: he k new i t t o b e mat ofl regret tO his Right H on . ' an d L e a rne d F r i en d )' 'o brought forward this me as u re , that he had not t e t had an opportunity of bringing forward a sea _ the for the improvement of the inferiorOrden of ie Cl ergy —that he had not an opportunity of be e that desirable object with this As 4 4 . an Y Pecuniary G ra nt s that could be made to them, t ons al ly to which Parli a me n t m i g h t b e b roug h t to ri etit on that subjeCt, he belived there never was tiJ thing appli e d b y P ar li ament mose worthil3, than irli( t would be, or any more success f u ll y l a id out ; td e ! ed, lie b e lie ve d , t hi s consideration connect itself tself,with th e god o f S oc i ety, to an incalcu e degree, and to an extent almost unlimited.— li t 'night look, h e sa id , w i th an extreme partia ljt towards t h at c l ass o f persons to whom he had tr fefer red, t h e i n f er i or Clergy : he certainly had Q i ' e at parti a li t y towards the whole body of the 4tar r gY• H e a d m i tte d there might be, s ome in_ . c .es of miscondua among them,. and that might to :al(' of every . b o d y o f men in every S..eiety ; but talon the Clergy as a class of people, their conduEt to general, and most particul ar ly f or t h e l ast n i ne or Years,. th is Country. r They should therefore have a corn hitiunce for their support—Affluence he did not for affluence to them all, was not, in his opi ten., desirable, but a decent competence, and that ve'r4Ppear to hir4 to be ne cessar y.' I t w as fi t t h at 1 ‘ , 4 Y Clergyman should have a com p etenc y. Thi s w h i c a h matte r of gLeat importance to the Society in sh oto we lived , acid when this object was gained, we Yeue"tA have gained a l ast i ng security for. our 1 hpyinels, but without which he was con •. n- tinted it Would be impossible for our.prospetity to be lasting. He felt this .opinion so forcibly, that he would say, great as our Wealth was at the p r e_ sent hour, great as our Prosperity was as a Nation, splendid as our Military and Naval Glory had been, Much -as distinguished men had spread our Fame, and , many, very many of thein would be entitled -w our Gratitude fot ever, yet, unless.we had a Clergy possessed of competence among us, superioi to pecu. niaty wants, and the. inconveniencies of indigence, the whole of our Successes and Triumphs would, in time, be trodden under foot, and it would -be in vain for us to look for a long period of happiness : but he wished - not to be misunderstood, he was not considering it matter of objeetion to this Bill, because 'it did not contain any provision of this sort, or as a , reason against going into the Committee upon it ; he approved of it as far as it went. He wished the provision with re gard to the Clergy extended further - than this Bill profeSsed to go, or under the present circumstances would go. Future provisions might enibrace'con-' siderations of increasing places of Public Worship, as well as increasing the salaries of some of the Mi nisters of that Worship ; but this was matter, of so much impOrtance that it could not be disposed of at the present time. Retaining; as he did, What he.' had said fOrmerly on this-topic, he wished this sub-: jed to he carried further than it could be by the pre_ -; sent Bill, but that could not be done at present. It was, however, impossible for him to forget what was due to- the Right Hon—Gentleman who brought in this Bill, and he trusted that the House would feel gratitude towards him for bringing it forward. At all events he hoped the House would let the Bill go into the Committee, and see what could. be 'done with it, and if it - did not at last accomplish the objeet they had in view, the House would dispose of it hereafter as might seem expedient ; but - he - Was friendly to forwarding the Bill, as much as its importance and the variety of its provisions would permit, - instead of postponing the consi deration of it to another Session. ► Mr. M. A.TAYfOR said, that notwithstanding the resped he had for the opinion of his Right Hon. Friend, Ile could not consistently vote for their going into the 'Committee. As to the latter part of the speech of Right Hon. Friend, he thought the best interests of the kingdom demanded that some further proviiion should be made for the sup, port of the Clergy. This, however, formed no part of the present Bill, and he was •not •to be led away by such kind of arguments, to take from Ju ries what had been in their hands for so long a period, and to give the poWer which they exercised wholly' to the Bishops. lie contended that the pre sent measure was not an ainendmetit of the Statute of Henry the Eighth, but a 'complete repeal of it. He should not be deterred 'from stating his reasons why he Would not'give this power to the Bishops, but-it was unnecessary. He tvell knew.that many of them were pious and excellent men, but_it was :not merely - to the present, but to future Bishops that this power was-to be given, and to no set of them whatever would he consent to give the power which . was intended to be conferred upon- them by the present Bill. It had arisen from a wrong construc tion-of the',word '' wiliul," in the Statute of Henry the Eighth, that a number of . prosecutions had taken place in various parts of the kingdom.— Complaint was made to the House, who agreed to suspend, in this instance, the proceedings- of Qui TaM Jnformers. - The grievance . was then stated, as was actually the case, that Judges were obliged to say, that though a •Clergyman did the whole of the duty which his situation called upon him to perform, yet he was liable to the penalty for Non_ residence. He thought this ought to be redressed by an explanation of the word " wilful," in the Statute alluded to, for there a remedy was wanted. Instead of this, however, they were about to give the power to Bishops to exempt the Clergy from Residence. 'Why, were not twelve Jurymen .as good judges whether an Adion ought to.be main tained against a Clergyman or not ? •Another,ground of complaint against the Statute of Henry th e Eighth was, that the penalty was not equal, it being the same upon Clergymen possessing livings of 30001. and soot. a-year. To this, a remedy might be applied, but if the-Bishop was to give a licence for Non-residence, there was an end of the Adion. Take it therefore in any way, the present measure was a repeal of the Statute of Henry the Eighth. If - these objects were to be remedied, why not bring in a Bill to amend that Att—why take it out of the hands of juries ? He could not think that Residence would be _at -all enforced by it.— Bishops were liable to an influence which Juries were not. He was told that it was riot orthodox that the Government of the Church should be placed in any other hands than those of , the Heads of the Church ; to this he would partly agree : he would • admit that Ordination and various other Ecclesias tical funttions ought to be placed under the control of the Bishops ; but did it follow that the Residence of the Clergy should also be under their control. Who- paid the Clergy ? the Laity. If the Bishop Was'to have the control over Residence, it aMount_ ed to this, that the Bishop was to decide whether a parish which paid 5001. a-vear to a Minister was to- have one or not: Ile - liked better to give, the jurisdiction over Residence to Juries than to Bishops, to twelve men than to one. There were some fla grant cases of Non-residence; but he was of opinion that, in general, the cases of Nornaesidence, had been greatly exaggerated, 'and he believed that Clergymen in general atcd very fairly and very properly. The Bill was stated to be a hones to the Clergy ; he believed on the contrary, that it was very unpopular amongst that body : they had rather that the Statute of Henry VIII. should have been amended, than that they should be compelled to go to a Bishop for a Licence for Non_Residence. He thought it was not a wise thing, to take the power out of the hands of a Jury and give it to a BiShop; and therefore, he should vote against' the Sr E. I IK E leaving the Chair. ‘• With resped to Farms, what had--been stated by his Hon. Friend was, he thought, saiisfadory ; but no advantage resulting in this re. sped to the. Clergy, .could induce him to support the present measure. Pm MASTER of the ROLLS said, he differed so completely from his Hon. Friend, , that whilst his Hon. Friend stated as an objection to the Bill; that it repealed the Statute .of Henry VIII. his only ob. jettion was, that it did not wholly repeal 'that Statute, so fir, at least, as related to the penalty, which was by this measure only made subj e a to certain regulations. It was to him a matter of Con. siderable. surprize, thift an Ae, should be made to enforce Church' Discipline by such means, which mast be insufficient, and frequently intolerably op_ • pressive. An objection had been, made to gi ying, so • much discretion to certain individuals. Was however, consistent with a proper system of in spellion and control, that the whole shOuld -be de - livered over to accident or caprice, without any obligation to,all„ or any security as to the mode of acting, without any security that the Law should' be enforced, or if it was enforced, that it would be rendered worse than if it had not been executed at all ? Such a Law might remain inactive for Cen turies, and there was no . body against whom a charge could be brought for negletf : An informer might.enforce it at one time and negled it at ano ther, whilst no man had a right to ask him a ques tion. No law could ever be so badly executed, as that which was in the hands of common Informers. It was now the object to take from them that discretion which they had abused, and always would abuse, and to place it in the hands of those to whom it pro. perly 'belonged, the venerable Prelates in whose dis cretion an unlimited confidence might be placed.— Thoge Gentlemen, however, who opposed the present measure, would not consent to place a regulated dis cretion in the hands of those whom they knew, and in whom they might repose confidence ; but they Wished to throw an arbitrary discretion in the hands of one. whom they •did not know, and from whom. they would have no pledge whatever of his duly ex ercising that disCretion. It was said that the Sta tute had existed for two centuries and a half, as was aEtually the case. He was as little disposed as any man toplace untried theory ;old speculation in com petition with laws and customs, of which they had experienced the benefit ; but it should be.recollell ed, that although the Statute of Henry the YHlth had existed so long, they had not had above ten years experience of its effects, and when enforced, it had only been so through the will and 'ple t asure of .a common Informer. Let the Statute remain % and it would only be executed by fits and starts; after a length of time had elapsed, when the Clergy had nearly forgotten the Ad, and a number of offences against the Statute had accumulated, then the In. former set to work and re a ped his harvest. The Hon. Gentleman had adduced the number of these prosecutions as a proof of the efficacy of the Sta ttite ; in his opinion • they formed an equally good proof of its inefficacy, for it was during its existence that the offences against which those prosecutions had been direlled had grown up. The Honourable Gentleman had observed, upon the circumstances under which it was proposed to suspend the Statute of Henry VIII. and it was well known to what a situation the Clergy would have been reduced if that Statute had been suffered to remain as it was. His Hon. Friend said, why not confine this measure . to an alteration of the Statute, for the purpose of remedying the' grievances complained of? He would at- all times be ready to support a proposition for expunging it from the Statute Book. He could have no objec tion to substituting something else instead of it ; but was it not worth while, after witnessing the consequences which they had seen result from this Statute, to try whether they could not go on with 'out it, which he hoped they would, some day, be enabled to do. 'Ms kingdom was the only one amongst Christian Countries where any part of the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction was transferred to Tem. poral Courts. It was absolutely impossilbe that those Courts could exercise any discretion what ever ; the residence of a Clergyman considered in a Court Of Common Law, was nothing but a mere corporeal residence ; on his cure the Court had no option. Suppose two Clergymen were brought before a Court Of Common Law, the one performed the whole of his - duty in the most conscientious manner, but did not sleep in the Parsonage_house. The other slept in the Parsonage-houSe, but totally neo-fetted his duty, and perhaps lived in open defiance . of the principles of virtue and morality ; the latter would go away unpuniShed, whilst the former would be loaded with penalties that might prove his abso lute ruin. 'Such was the consequence of transfer ring such a jurisdiction to a Court of Common Law, and was not this a sufficient reason for such a mea sure as that now before the House ? What would Gentlemen think of a Law to carry on the discipline of the Navy and Army by means of pecuniary pe nalties in a Court of Law ? Did they find this to be the case with any body of men.exercising a juris diction over each other, as in the case of-the Navy and Amy ? In Scotland, where Ecclesiastical Ju_ risdillion was wholly confined to the Clergy, was it found that there was any wilful neglett or impro per connivance on the part of - that Body ?, But he would even risk the probability of 'that rather than leave it to the discretion of common Informers.— ,Even supposing, however, that suing for penal ties in a Court of Comnion Law, to enforce residence in • the Clergy,' 'was an efficacious mode, yet it certainly was degrading. lesidenCe was a mean, not an end. Clergymen might be compelled to reside by this means, but could not be compelled to do their duty, and those who were thus compelled to reside,- would be rendered' the more unfit to perform that duty ; at any rate, they were in this way compelled to reside,, without any reference whatever to the end in view... Was the Judiciary or , Military, or any other professio n , placed in the same manner in the hands of common Informers ? aily the Clergy were placed in this de grading situation, their residence was enforced in the same manner as the duties on Gin and Tobacco were compelled to be paid. In other cases prose cutions might be stopped, but here in the case of the Clergy, the common Informer proceeded in his allion, and obtained his penalty without its being in the power of any one to stop him. -- •The.objed of this Bill was only to try whether the discipline of the Church could be carried on by means of the Constitution of. the Church if it failed, they had it at all times in their power to go-bacl. to the. St atute of Henry VIII. He should certainly support the further progress of the Bill.. The ArIORNEY GENERA sai.3, he agreed with many of the arguments which h id -b een urge d b y: the Gentlemen o n the .other side of ihellouse, (Mr, SIMEON and Mr.TAy toil), though he toad not'con, cur with them in the vote which they intended to gii'e upon this question on the other hand he should agree in the conclusion drawn by his Right Hon. and Learned Friend the Master of the Rolls, though he differed from bins in many of the argu. meats which he had urged. Though there were many parts of this Bill which he felt to be extremetv obiedionable, yet he wished the Bill to go into a Committee, in order that the Clauses might be al tered, because if the Bill came out of the Commit tee in the same form as it we n t i nto i t , h e certa i nly should oppose it. He was surprised to hear the Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House ex press their intention of opposing this Bill going into a Committee, because the whole of their objections went to Clauses which might be altered in a Coin. mittee, and if the alterations which they thought necessary were not made in the Committee, it would. be competent to them then to oppose the whole of the Bill. For in - stance, much of the discussion had turned upon the. degree of power and discretion which was to be vested in the Bishops ; this un. doubtedly was a propersubjed for the consideration of the Committee, where the discretionary power of the Biehop eight be enlarged or - limited, as might , be thought roper. With regard to his own opinion, he thought that the power which it was proposed to give to the Bishops by this Bill was extremely proper, but in other cases, he conies sedhe thought it much too great-. He differed very considerably from his Right Hon. and Learned Friend who spoke last with regard to what he had said about enforcing the Residence of the Clergy, by means of a Common Informer, It had been said that many cases of great hardship had arisen in consequence of the power given to the Common Informer by the Statute of fienry VIII. but he be lieved that there was a great deal more clamour made upon this subject, than the occasion warrant ed. .He was so far from agreeing with his Right . Hon. and Learned Friend about enforcing Resi. deuce by means of Common Informers, that if the, cases could by any` means be defined before hand,' , he would not consent to give the power into the hands of the Bishop. It had been said, that the Aa of Henry VIII. even if enforced, would only compel the Clergyman to reside upon his Living— • it would not compel him to a faithful performance of the duties of his fundion ; but this was only say- . ing that the ACI did not do that which it never ,professed to do. The mi. professed to enforce Re.. sidence, and no more. But Gentlemen argued as if the Aft of Henry VIII. took away the superintend. ing power of the Bishops over the residence and Condiid of the Clergy ; it did no.such. thing. It woidensot be denied that, the Bishops had now by Law the power of enforcing the Residence of .the, Clergy upon their Livings, but it• might be urged • that the means by which the Bishop could enforce • Residence were troublesome and expensive, • and therefore could not be had recourse to. It was also to be observed, that the means of compelling Re-, sidence under the At of Henry VIII. was expen„.• sive to the Common Informer, because there were no costs, and it had been fin some time usual for Judges, when actions were brought for several pe-. nalties, to ditett the jury to find a verdkl for one or two penalties only, which would not pay the person bringing the aEtion the expence he was put to. There was another argument used by his Right Honourable and Learned Friend, which ,did not appear to him to apply very strongly to the question . before the 'House; •he had said that this principle was not applied to other professions, par ticularly to the• Army and Navy ; but surely it was obvious, that the pri nc ipl e of enforcing attend., ance by means of penalties could not .be ap_ plied to the Army and Navy ;, . : the situation of a Captain of a ship or in the army, or of a Soldier or a Sailor, was in every resped sp totally dissi. milar from that of a Clergyman, that he could not see how the argument could be applied, to Upon all these grounds, though he . .disapproved of many Of the parts of the Bill-, yet he should vote for its going into a Committee, where alterations might be proposed. Mr. TAYLOR explained. Mr. WINDHAM said, that the evils which the Clergy suffered by means of attions to enforce their Residence, were admitted on all hands ; - it was re cognized by the Legislature . last year, for the.Legis. lature last year suspended the operations of the Law, which enforced that Residence, and it did so until it could see what other means may be adopted, if any could be adopted, in lieu of such suspension, or whether such suspension should continue, The ob. jett of this Bill was partly to regulate the Statute of Henry VIM by certain provisions, arid in that respett, the Hon. Gentleman had approved of - i t , ms far as it tended to enforce .part of that Statute: ,Now he owned it' was no recommendation to him of the present Bill ; he should have liked it better 44 had tended to repeal that Statute, and he could nit help thinking, that such indeed was the opinion of his Right Hon'. Friend who brought in this mea, sure,. and that many of its provisions were made more with a view to the convenience of others whose 'approbation he wished to obtain, than.frorn his own good sense; for his own part, he should have liked it better had it - tended to lake away , the provisions . of that Stature, .which certainly carried, with them much of the eta. raner and features of the times In • whii:h they. Were made. Now he came to treat of the .stif.ject 'of Ecclesiastical Policy, and how much was w he left to discretion; and in diseussing.this subjcet it Was essential; as- in all Questions of discretion. it was . essential, to consider to Whom the discretion is given, and on whom it is to operate; for disere. tion was inseparable from all law ; no law could be executed without it ; even in the most rigorOus laws of civil policy, their execution was encrusted to discretion, and without which their execution in some instances would be intolerable. Now 'with re. gard to the Clergy, the discretion here was given to the - Bishops; And it was to operate on the inferior Clergy: this in its natt:re was a.discretion the 'legit; to be °Netted to, since it was' in the nature , of the discretion of a parent over his child. interested in the welfare of the. object, as well .as in civil polici, :fudges were interested in the wellate.of the Pikblic, He therefore thbught the discretion properly. retied, and his great objett4as, that tliC ghurch should have the means' of regulating its oWn con.