The Sun. — London, England, 1802-05-14 00:00:00

I Majority, On our re-admission, 'MUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY, MAY 13, causes both domestic and external, and concluded by saying, that they had his most humble and sincere thanks for their spirit and their moderation, their wisdom and their firmness, by which they had rescued the Country from its dangers and difficulties, increased its glory, and procured the blessings of Peace. The _Earl of DARNLEY contended that the Pre liminaries and the Definitive Treaty materially dif fered, and that the latter was more disadvantageous than the former to this Country. The Earl of ROSLIN said, he rose, not to tres pass upon their Lordships' time, but chiefly to cor.: red a mistake of his Noble and Learned Friend , with respect to our right of the compliment of the Flag. He was not one of those who thought all formS idle and unnecessary, which seemed to be the dodrine of the day, and therefore he could not but regret that was was to he laid aside, which he believed warmed the hearts of our seamen with pride and pleasure, and which this Country had ex ercised for centuries, and which was established by ancient. usage. But it was not confined to the Dutch alone, but evaded from all nations navigat ing the Narrow Seas, viz. the British and St.' George's Channel, and was extended to certain li mits, which he did not immediately recoiled. His Lordship said, he could not but regret that mote was not obtained ; but he was not prepared to go the length of the original Motion. The Loan CAANC E LLOR, in an excellent Speech, which took up .more than two hours in the delivery, defended the Definitive Treaty of Peace in all its bearings amid details, as the best terms which, under all the circumstances, could be procured. He concluded by adjuring the House, not to consign those to disgrace who' amled under the authority of their Lordships' opinions, and whose best endea vours were direfted to obtain the most unexcep tionable terms of Peace. The Earl of (:.LIIDEN shortly delivered his sentiments, which, as we could cuilea, were against the original Address. The Duke of RICHMOND spoke at some length . agamst the terms of Peace procured by the Defini tive Treaty, and warmly in support of some of the leading arguments of Lord Grenville. Lard HOBART, after generally defending the Treaty, entered into a detailed examination of certain fOI stated by Lord Grenville in the course of his speech. • Lord GR ENVILLE spoke shortly in explanation. Earl So ENC ER, in a short speech, supported the original Address. The Duke of NORFOLK explained, and agreed to withdraw his Amendment. Earl STANHoo E objefted to this proceeding, as there were some points in the Counter-Address which he could not reconcile himself to. A long and desultory conversation here took place, -chiefly respeding points of Order, and the most regular mode of putting the questions on the several Motions before the House. The principal Speakers iNere the Duke of RICHMOND, Lords RostAN, HonnAND, GR ENV ILLE,RADNOR, STANHOPE, and the CHANCELLOR ; the result was, that it was de termined, the question should be put on the Motion fn r the Counter_Address, which, in its adoption, did away the Amendment of the Duke of NORFOLK. The Question being put, the Strangers were order ed to withdraw—but previous thereto, Lord HOLLAND lamented that he could not join cordially in the Counter-Address, on the princi ples which aauated his Noble Friend STANHopE ; he would, therefere, in the event of its being car ried, submit a Proposition, which he felt incumbent on him to urge the. adoption. The division then took place. When there ap. reared, For the Original Address, Against it, including Proxies, T 6 122 116 The Duke of MoNTRosE Was arguing against Lord Holland's Proposition, which had been put in the interval, and which on its being put from the Woolsack, appeared to he to the following effeEt: '' That the omission of various opportunities to treat with - the 'tench Republic, and particularly the rejetion of the Overture of the First Consul. of France soon after his accession to power, ap_ peared to their Lordships to have led to the neces sity of making the Terms obtained by the Defini tive Treats , of Peace, &c." This was negatived without a division. The Lords with White Staves, were then ordered to attend I-113 MAJESTY respeding the Address; and at a QUARrER PAST SEVEN in the morning their Lordships adjourned till Monday. A Message from the Lords, brought by Chief Baron MAC DONALD and Mr. Baron HoT it AM, informed the House, that theii Lordships had agrced to the Annuity hill of the Dukes of Sussex anti Cambridge without any amenchnent. Sir fiENRy P Eva- oN tuo. the Oaths and his Seat for Cambridgeshire. Mr. At.i..X Nto7.ft hrhuglit up the Report of the Com mittee of Ways and Means, which was; read and agreed to, and Bills ori..ed. Mr. N. V.INSITTART brought up a Bill relative to Franking, which was read a first time and ordered to. he read a second tinie tv-morrow.. - - . The Post I lorse Farming Bill, the Post Office Bill, and the Irish Indemnity Bill, severally passed though a 'Com niittee. ---•lteports to.niorrow. The Mutiny Bill, anti time Marine Mutiny Bill wcrg read a second tinit; and committed for To7illorrow. DEFINITIVE TREATY. Mr. WI ND H AM tHor'e4 the Order of Day for tak ing into consideration the Definitive Treaty Between Great Britain and the French Spain, and Holland. Mr. IVIN1.)11.4111 said, the sublet!): had been so much under discussion, that it was unneceisary co say much upon this, which was the last part of the proceeding adopted by hini and his Hon. Friends. The course they had adopted, he contended, was the best, as Gentlemen, who attended those dis_ cussions, came. now with their minds better pre_ pared to form an opini•on upon the Whole of the rablca under com,ideration, The simpil course of' proceeding which lukd beef" adopted, was to - aniii-,e separatoy, in order, to judge jointly, Many points, had, been discussed, and those he must now go hastily over. With resreel to Malta, he c01.:4- plainer of the want of precise stipulations : we had ! left it to the option of the Enemy, and had, in fad, placed the Island in the hands of France. We had carried on a sort of war against those principles which we professed to defend. If ever there was an Order containing more of the substance of those principles than another, it was that of Malta : it was a sort of phial containing all their essence, which we had uncorked, and diluted the liquid with a base admixture. So much was this the case, that he believed the Getman Knights had refused to associate with an Order which, they considered to be degraded. With respell to the Garrison, it was a perfed syllogism, that if Malta was to be garrisoned by Neapolitans, and Naples was under the dominion - of France, Malta was, beyond dis pute, placed in the hands of France. The whole transaCtion threw a ridicule upon the proceedinas of Government. Malta was lost, and it was much worse than if we had surrendered it to France : if we had surrendered it we might have had soma objed in return, but in this case we had given it up without compensation, and with the ridicule charged upon it, that we had not given it op.-- With resped to the Cape, there was certainly a very marked difference !between the Preliminary and the Definitive Treaty. It was understood that the Cape• was to be - declared a free port ; some thought it had better not, but all concurred in opinion, that the option ought to be left to this country ; instead of this, however, the option was left to France. As it was at present, the Batavian Republic might to-morrow put in a French gar rison, and make the Cape over to France : thus it was a complete loss. It might be said, that the Cape could only be considered with respel to this country as a tavern ; but it .would be recolleded, that it was the only tavern there was during a voyage of five or six months, where troops sent to India could refresh, and it thus became an object of importance. The only other place _to touch at in those voyages was the Brazils, and what hope had Gentle Men of that being open to us in a future war? Then we should not be able to send to India, for the defence of our Empire there, a Regiment, much less a considerable Armament, without their being rendered unable to ad for at least six weeks after their landing.— France had now the Cape and Cochin, where they might make hostile preparations against the possessions of this Country in India, and from whence an explosion might be ready to burst out before we were in any degree aware of it. He should now say a few words as to the boundaries of Portuguese and French Guiana. This transattion would best explain the sort of policy pursued by France : he would just state the transactions which took place. The Arawari was now understood to be the boundary of the French possessions in Guia na, bur might not that have been as well so stated in the Preliminary Treaty ? This boundary, he un. derstood, was completely different from any known before ; it certainly did not exist before the War, and was, in fad, fixed for the first time by the De finitive Treaty. It might as well have been stated in the Preliminary Treaty, because the Noble Lord (Hawaaattuay) had stated to the House, that this was the boundary : he must contend, however, that the House were to look to the formal documents be fore them, and not to an answer made to a question in that manner. He would not say there was a fraud on the part of the French Government, as it would only be a fraud if the subjea was not understood between this Country and France ; but there cer tainly was a fraud attempted on the part of the French Government. They endeavoured to esta. blish as a Boundary that fixed. by the Treaty of Madrid, which was signed only two days before the Preliminary Treaty : it was true they did not adhere to it, but here they sheaved considerable Generalship ; they brought forward their fraud to cover their finesse. They said, we ask this but we will take less, and thus they obtained wh at they wished fur. Why could not His Majesty's Ministers say at once, that the Boundary of Form- ' guese Guiana was to be the Arawari, instead of bringing forward the integrity of Portugal ? The Boundary thus sett'ed was not one jot better than that Which we had given up, nor was there any more advantage to be derived from this Boundary than from that which we had made a merit of giving up; for France had obtained the com mand of the River Amazons, which was all she ! wanted. The cession of Louisiana next called fur his notice, but it was of such vast mag. nitude, that it almost deterred him from saying any thing about it. We had nearly given France pos session of a fourth part of the Globe : We had established them in a possession which but for /his they could not have had. • He did not mean to say that they, were not in some measure established a there at fbrmer period, that they had not pos sessions there before, but certainly nothing in com parison with what they possessed there now. He did not mean to say that the French, placed in that Continent, with an indefinite wilderness behind them, could suddenly become powerfld there ; but what had we done ? We had given them possession of the two greatest rivers in America, the Missis sippi and the AniazoPs, the one giving them the ,command of North America, the other of South America : we had given them the possession of both, and had made them a present of a brace of Continents. In what . situation must this Country be placed in consequence of such a cession, which he feared would prove the severest blow we had ever sustained ? There were several other points which it might be necessary to advert to, the principal of which was the non-revival of former Treaties. This was a complete subversion of former pradice, and of what must be considered -as the public law of nations ; and it was incumbent on those who had done it, to shew that it could be done with safety. They were to shew that such an omission could be made without injury ; they were to slim that it did not aft - ea our interests at the Bay of Honduras, and above all, that it did not shake the fbundation of our power in India. With respeft to India i , he was glad there had been some pre lirninary discussion upon that subject ; his Hon. Friend (Mr. Doxleas) had shewn, by the change of his opinion, the uncertainty which existed as to the fad itself, His Hon. Friend had had, she 2.111ie4 brought before him at a former period ; it ' was: tao,va again brought before him,, and the uncer,7! minty of opinion in a mind so well it - Armed, certainly chewed the uncertainty of the thing itself. His Hon. Friend had said a good deal oldie Convention oft 787, not forgetting the Treaties of 1783 and of 1703. With respe& to the claims of the Enemy, many very pompous assertions were made as to our rights ; but every one who spoke upon the subjetl considered our cause as perfeetly good. it was in this case, a com bat without an adversary. Many questions that came before that Hotise might be said to come coraris non judice; it was not what we said, but what they said. If any man's claims could be settled upon his own assertion, there - would be little or nothing to do in Westminster-hall ; but in carne the adversary and disputed these claims : so much for assertion. His Hon. Friend had laid about him, like another Ajax, amongst some poor harmless cattle, whom, in the fervor of his imagination, he had conceived to be so m-any warlike Trojans, but he had better reserve his artillery for another opportunity. But to re turn to the Convention of 1787, the Noble Lord (HAwicEsßoßr) had admitted that France had founded her claims upon other documents besides the Treaty of 1783; she certainly did; she founded them upon the ancient firmans. It might be asked, why should our claims he disputed I He would ask, why not ? Those claims were arranged in some , what an indefinite manner in the Treaty of 1783 : it happened at that period as in 18oz, there was a disposition to slur over a great many points, the language was, we say so, and you say so, and when the time collies when it is necessary to settle the point, , then we will settle it. This gave rise to the Convention of 1,787, by which our rights were more clearly and better acknowledged : this however was not an abandonment of the claims of the Enemy, but only an abandonment of the means of inforcing those claims : it was only de barring them from the use of those means by which they could support their claims. His Hon. Friend had talked of drawing swords in support of our claims ; but, perhaps, his Honourable Friend 'had been hurried away by the warmth of his imagi. nation.---His Honourable Friend seemed to have forgotten the situation we were placed in, and to have imagined that he had the War Sword in his hand'. This was not, perhaps, exactly the moment when we could say, " here we stand upon our So vereignty, touch us who dare ;" we might have negotiated with some effett with the Cape and Cochin in our hands, but we had given them up to France. It was not, however, because our claims lay in India that they must be decided there ; the cause might be brought from India to Europe, and it was not the first time that a squeeze given us in Europe had compelled us to vomit forth all the acquisitions we had made in other parts. With respect to the Isle of Elba, the policy of France had been most conspicuously dkplayed. The Archduke had been sent away from Tuscany, for the purpose of substituting another figure, under_the name of a King. This Country', however, thought that the Territories of that State would remain the same : Austria was of the same opinion, but by a stroke of policy peculiar to herself, France secured Porto -Ferrajo for her own use. , 1-le would nor dwell longer upon these . topics. Upon the two Treaties which were before the House, any mea. sure might be pursued which the House chose to adopt. The Treaties, however important, embraced subjects so immense, that he knew rint how it was possible to discuss them even in a summary manner in one day. With resped to the French Republic, it was important to know what she could do, and what site would do, and this might be ascertained from what she had done, and what she had willed ; they must also know what Great Britain had done, and what she would do. As to France, they could only judge of her situation and resources from that period of history, which, however remote, was familiar to Gentlemen in that House, the time when the Romans were at the height of their power. They could only from that period form an idea of the power and resources of this body of modern Romans. France had attained that height of power in ten years, which the Romans had only accomplished in several centuries. Let it be recolleded what Montesquieu had said relative to attaining a greatness of power ; his principles were so completely exemplified by what had hap pened in the present day, that it might be supposed the French had taken 'this hook as their ma nual. As to what they would do, they told us in plain language what they intended to do. When we looked to the Continent, there seemed only two Powers that were capable of making -a stand against the power of France, and one of those was, per haps, prote&ed only by its distance from that • Power. Austria was still strong, and perhaps its resources were undiminished ; hut so bereft of aid, that it was probable in the first shock of the vessel, it would go by the board. Great Britain had, it is true, made head against the power of France, but even this country had, in some measure, given way to it. Many perhaps might console them selves and say, " Europe is gone ; peace go with her : but thank God we are placed on an Island, and we can take to out boat and go wherever we please." This might be said, but we should meet with France wherever we went ; in no part of the world should we be secure from be ing haunted by her ghost ; whether we went to America or to the East Indies, still the spedre of French greatness would pursue us. When - he looked to the West Indies, he found,those interested in the property of those Islands so struck by panic, that it absorbed every other consideration. They felt danger between a Negro insurrection and French power ; if the Negroes gained possession of these Islands, they were entirely lost, but if the French conquered, it was not perhaps a loss to individuals, but a loss to the Country. We had agreed to assist them with regard to St.. Domingo, but why should we give them possession of Fort Hillsborough, which was capable of containing vessels that might annoy our trade with the utmost facility, so as to ren der our trading vessels insecure without strong Con voys ? The means which France possessed to carry their vast plans into execution, were almost indefi nite : they stood possessed of a large portion of the two Continents of America, whilst to the rower they possessed there we had little means of resistance. Added to this, their, power in America gave them an immense influence over the .American States ; we wets perfectly aware, what a growing Power the blieniiLdeiSitaintetshoefhAanmdesr(i)cfaysr7nsc,e,ansdo:tefl)t.l,letylic ur'eerlerr: more than ever reason to be jealous. Thus far to the means of France. He really believed, ever, strange as it might apeear, that a grtat pr of the approbation to this fatal Treaty was fh tin ` e o upon the fanciful opinion, that France would be s o far occupied with the conquests Uhe give no interruption to our Commerce and Man ,°` fattures : how such an opinion could be entertain.' ed, he was at a loss to know. It seemed, as if w i e had made, as had kept our terms, but lost our tone. France bat.: shewn a determined disposition to attain universtn Empire, in pursuance of which she would destr n r c this Country, that being necessarily a part of Itc.. plan. France di s pl a yed h er s entiments upon the su • b Jed; she had marked out-her plan and taken her p ost ; !ions, and this so ev idenay, that her oh em c ould o n . c be mistaken. W e h a d a war of arms, now w e wer i to have a way of customhouses ; the atta ch s France, which were lately made against our tall"): ries were now lev e ll e d a t the commerce of the Bri tish Empire. This being the situation' of Fran ce ' it remained to be inquired what was the situationt of Great Britain, and what she could do, and Iv i, ll _ She ought to do. In considering this poititf t hey must take into their view what had -been : crs exertions of this Country, wh a t were the fee" ,n ° which had been aroused by • those exe rti l ls .' and what was the judgment formed as to Our exertion, toe exertions. It seemed, that by a sort argre:see ral law, even every animal Was enabled to do danger, and to provide against it. Speak ul g io d this general question, he thought this County},„T been rather defedive in f oresee i ng , and rtnrl.ae.l against future' d an g e r. By ta ki ng a view °' ' t hadpast, they might form a judgment of what was come. In this, however, they we re defe 6 l ice er ', they had observed the consequences which had he sc produced in other cou n trie s by the effea ° f 111° , 2 1 principles, which had operated as -an twi v c er j a menstruum, dissolving every t hing . that ° m , contad with it, but they sa id i t w a s of no OJ C I of quence, it would pass over Britain, the por e r g e le of that f t h o e t h p e e c o g u o n k t i r i e o s f . • the Bristish nulpire would withstand t he. N r " - set t he 0 ,1 that menstruum, which had dissolved could not Withstand the adion of this mens itutl train a n Ya s m a e w t more than the baser metals of other countries—le t h e War ensued. We got into the War, and tl condud of that War would shew its chataeterc . There were two views in which the question, r e ) ; live to that War, presented itself—it was to ,, s t considered either as a common War of nation aga n , .nation, ( r as a War of the good of all against the bad of all nations. Those who the rl lTr y it issr rldoollst\vest sidered it in the first point of view, con ceit i v, it was to he condueled in the common 1."0/01 by seizing the Ships . of the nation with owoo,, we were at War, and by impoverishing - th at O od don in every way in which such injury 00 4. be effeded. Those, on the other hand, %% 4° `',l it sidered it in the second point of view, beli ev . e r e lf , to be a war against the body o f F r ance l ic e, There were at the same time s om e points ta e lice, these two opinions were c onso lid ate d; tir t , tolcv considered it as a war of opinion, wished nor ships, and to use every other means of W 31 : 0 the only that they might in the m ean time , fur' resources of the Country, but that they wig - a rtY ther the objet`} in view, and at the same ti nle public opinion along with them; whilst th o l e no considered it as a common war, would havlnce:. objection to the restoration of Monarchy in s r`ijer the whole question was, which was to be c °( ' ot go ed as secondary and sub or di nate ? He woul" , ri o nso int o a di scuss i on o f* t h e mer i ts o f t hose oi' n i ,hr , but simply s ta te t h e m : w hi c h o f them vc o r ( 0 must for ever remain a question. With rcsrpont the measures pursued i n the conduct of rhe iltion with the exception of the unsuccessful .exT e ` ii • t ioo to Quiberon, a n d ha v i ng ment i one d the EV. e 'elie to Quiberon, against which a loud cry ot, loon' clamour was raised, he would observe, that 114 sa id, Friend, the l ate Ch ance ll or o f t h e Excheqoer fon he would take his share of the blame arisiog that Expedition, yet some difference of °Pin ° here iqed between him and his Colleaguese — h e interrupted by e II soh" Mr. PITT, who Spoke to Order. ''`„ rela mitted to the House, whe t h e r on a propositio;esent tive to a Peace concluded by His Majesty s 1 . as to Ministers, they could ent e rtain a discussi;sl7ar the.measures pursued in the conduit of the ,ed His Majesty's late Ministers ?He als o n is that ,the obligation of secrecy imposed Majesty's o. Servants, although they were 00t e Co n , lice, could not he dispensed with, withou t 01 sent of His Majesty. o s 3 P Mr. WIND HAM said, he was agent that he took,the blame of that Expedition , - to himself. He 53 Mr. PITT again sp o ke to OrJer• siie see' the very point urged by his lion. Frien`" t ntrea the propriety of the Call to Order. Ile the generosity of his Hon. Friend's mind ; he o eieet not conceive that an explanation upon such a could, be allowed in the present discussion. meant Mr. WINDHAM prc,ceeded—he said , l ' p e i pe , t i " to state that h e too k a ll t h e blame of that 010 tion to him s elf, an d t h at himself and hi s " u ile'it' t ga9 e held different opini ons u pon the subjee t • , " dl ev er also about to o b serve , that this Country r formed a proper j u d gment of its situation, . s es' • ''' propet foresight o f t h e dangers to whi c h it t eat t he posed. rt efred of this he though t was, , t vy Country never properly understood or fel' wi ,? e re r l4 were at War : t h e y wer e told that e v %‘ - '" re War for security, b ut t he fad was , that t rhe y at War because they could not be at P e j ac r i, were at sea because they could not be a a _ ess of ti l l perhaps was to be attributed to t h e rcg c , cotr ieigg . War itself, it threw off, in a kind 0 1 ioints , force, .succes:es were g ained in vario us still the question was left too moa t cov er:; why we were at war, namely, because ; iin ,„:1 men! of France was. endeavouring to t the world.' This -error had pursued its d nv el; which We had come into,• as it' w e 11 th a t sight of the consequences. He belie."' jiv e V`. s dangers arisin g from this Peace' might . •ree. g, foreseen, if we had looked for t hem. es n r p a very imperfed fbresight of the f, loge rs oun,ry. e ink faun the adual situation a the -