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:,~~ iii Re 111 1 Irtit nig other consideration than *hat was now proposed.. it wis an'offcr which should not be r-jeaed. The strangers were then ordered• to withdraw. and a division took place on Sir John Anderson's Amendment. The numbers were—For the Amend inent, 20—Against it. 74—Majority 54. After some further conversation. and before strangers were again admitted to the Gallen y, ano ther division took place. as we understood ne the question of calling in the Counsel, on which the numbers were—For hearing Counsel, 3)—Agaiust it, GS—Majority. 23. The Bill, them we understand, was read a second time, and ordered to he committed. On our return to the gallery, the House was in debate on a motion, That there be laid before the Ilonse a Letter from the Persian Secretary to the Vizier, dated June 22, 11102, relative to Mr. Paul ;" which was finally ordered. •! On the motion of Mr. TM. SMITH, the House resolved itself into a Committee on the Slave Carry ing Bill. Some verbal amendinents were made to the Bill, the blanks were filled up, and a new clause was brought up by Mr. Wm. Smith, for limiting the time of this Bills being in force for two years, from the end of the present Session, and no longer. The Report was ordered to he received to-morrow. Mr. Secretary WINDHAM moved the Order of the Day fur taking into farther considelation the Report of the Training Bill. Viscount CAS MERE A G Ii wished to know whe ther this measure would be carried into effea, if Pailiament should approve of it ? 34 he thought it w•as material for the House to know, before they pro ce:ded with the dissusaion, whether or not it would be a dead letter en the Statntesßook ? Mr. Secretary WINDHAM, in answer, said, it was the first time he had heard a doubt on the sub lea; and then moved that the Bill should be recom mitted, which ens ordered. On the question of the House now resolving itself into the Committee— Colonel BAG 4 WELL rose, and said, he thought the House should pause, before a measure of tried . and approved merit should he rejected, for inch a visionary projeft as that at present b•fora them. The responsibility , of the Right Hun. Proposer, he considered, was great indeed. 'l - lie eyes of the people were placed on him from the moment of his going into office, as it was generally believed, from the professions he had made, that he %would bring forward a measure which would give the greatest possible security to the country; but, instead of this, he had produced one, which. above all others, was most inefficient. This was re • the ex tent of the evil, as the speeches which the Right Hoe. Gentleman made, had produced an incslcula- Lle toed - der, by exciting divisions and differences among the Volunteers. subversive of all order and re gitlarity. But the mountain which bad laboured so Tong, had at lergth produced an abortion in legisla ture, and he did not think it could be called by any ethsr name, as the Right Hon. Gent. himself had acknowledged it was an experiment; and certainly it was 1: re. which could not possibly produce any good A - ea, though the expence was great. The Gentleman then asserted, that the only reason there was for bringing forward this measure, Vas, because it differed from that which he had so often Om:Siert be would not say in tedious. hutin -esesition. With respell to the Bill itself, he eon • it never c uld he agreeable to the people ; every man would be subject to martial law, and to be marched from one part of the country to 2110- titer, n iless he p I 101.; and he, thei dere, entered his pose t -peel it. S:r J. PULTENEY, after taking a general view of the subjea, :aid, he thought it would have been better, bad the p:opl. been armed at first, before the volunteer n.e isure lied been resorted to ; Out. at all events, he was happy it was now brought forward. He certainly had the highest resped for the Volunteers, and he was convinced that they had deserved well of their country, but he did not think them 60 desirable a force, as tzar which was proposed to be raised under this Bill. 'l here were three points of view in which this measure could be considered. The first was, petting men into the regular army from this force. This was by some considereelltn centtitutienel ; but lie, for his part, thought the necessity of the case demanded it. The second was, that of appointing Officers by His Majesty, which he conceived was by far the best mode, as it was absurd to suppose, that men could be rendered et feaual, without the assistance of men of experience. The last point was the expence ; and he was aware that the first idea was, that it should be little or nothing ; but he believed that cad long since been given up ; and though it was desirable that it should be as moderate as possible, yet he did not think it ought to be considered an abjection to the measure, if rt was great. He then concluded, by giving his assent to the motion of the Right Honourable Se cretary. alt. SPENCER STANHOPE said. he though; if the Right Hon. Gentleman intended to keep his Bill. merely as a Bill upon paper, he might be in duced to look at it with some degree of favour, as a matter of curiosity ; but as a prattles' matter, he eoold not but view it as the wait obnoxious, the • most odiou s the mest oppressive. and the most intolerable measure that ever any Minister dared to avow. It is no less than requiring every fourth man to be raised by a compulsory ballot. The people bad been told, that if they would volunteer in err tam numbers, the Lecy-ra•Mauc should not be galled out—they had volunteered to the amount of those numbers—they still continued to volunteer, even to a much greater amount than this Bill pre tends to attempt to raise men; and, beaded by the 4 entlemen of the country, their neighbours and Intimates, there could be no doubt but they would long continue to master and enroll them selves, and yet this hateful measure is to be resorted to; and the people compelled to train themselves for 24 days in the whole. Ile advised the Right Honourable Gentleman. however, to take care how be proceeded;—the people of England may be led, but they will not be driven, and this was driving Clem with a verge:thee. But what was most extra ordinary of all was. that there is no estimate of the • eapences attending this business; at a shilling a day for each mar., it would amount to upwards of 200,0001. a "War, which be thought enoimouss and which must be highly burdensome to the country. If Ministers had stuck to the volunteers, they might slave raised as ma=y as they pleased.-4:e asked also for information, if these-men, dins to be raised in this compalsory way, were for England only, or were intended tor every part of the Empire? No mention whatever was made is the Bill, of either Ireland or .Scotland. Was Ireland to be, lett to hei,elf, and had Scotland no occasion for any addi- tional force, so tie to be entirely free from this corn pulsOry *Measure t From the Bill he could derive no informatioa on this head. This force, he said, seal not to be commanded by the landed Gentlemen of the country. which all levies of this nature had hitherto been ; and he asked the Right Honourable Gentleman, if he thought that would males it popu lar, and that the people would agree to it, without grum'sling at least, to use the softest phrase? There was, he said, every thing in this Bill which the Right Hon. Gentleman had condemned - Toe the last three yerrs. There was the ballot. with a heavier fine than had ever been thought of I;4:fore. and, at the same time, he could not find out by the Bill, • which was the Commanding Officer of a company, the Setjeant or the Constable ; it would be a most motley assemblage altogether, and a person who had afted as a Volunteer Captain, might fimil htm self placed in the ranks, between his own footman and his father's chimney-sweeper: If His Majesty's Ministers wanted a greater force, they ;night have it cheerfully and readily, by encouraging the volun teen ; but if they attempted to obtain it by com pulsory means, they might burn their fingers. He hoped, therefore. the House would rejetit a measure that was hateful and expensive in the extreme. • siy W. MILNER spoke shortly in ta,vour of the Bill, on . ate . preinii iliac the Volunteers were fail. in off in their numbors ; and,. therefore. .that it would be necessary a more numerous description of persons should be trained to arms. for the purpose of being taken into eta Regular Army. if necessity should at any time require-it. • Viscoant CAS FLEREAGH lamented that the Rt. Hon. Secretary had net opened his plan to the House, as, by that mans, they should have been able to form a mote decisive opinion an it. He did not, he said, feel inclined to oppose the Speakt,r's leaving the Chair. or to prevent the hill front going to a Committee. but he wished to have a fair oppor tunity of d:scussing the principle of the bill, which had ran yet been given. As to the -iiitr.at princi ple of the Bill, he felt no great objection to tt,13,- cause it was nearly the slail as a Bill of a similar nature. brought forward in a former period, by his Right Honourable Friend ('sir. Yorke.)-.- He thought, however, his Right Honourable Friend's Bill was greatly preerable to the present, when we considered what was the situation of the country in 1110 a, and at the present moment, with respell to the defence and sects , ity of the country. At that time, the war wa , . only just broken our. and we had no more than 153.000 men as cmr whole force. We have n Z 59.000 men, besides volunteers. He compared the two plans, and said, by that of his Right Hon. Friend, the supplementary militia was to be brought in aid of our Regular Army, after that the Army of Reserve; and if those two mea sures failed, they were then to advert to the levy ea noose. But in the ist9 tur raising the last mention eu force, there was a provision, that it the popula- tion of the country came forward, and volunta rily gave such a irumbet, His Majesty was then impowered to remit the /wee es same. It was impossible for the Right Hon. Gentleman to stare that there was an equal pressure on the coun try now, as there was then ; and ys t, if the country furnished s;x times the amount of the militia, His Naje,ty was solemnly pledged, that this measure sh, uld rut bi resorted to, and that pledge should wit- be. forfeited. but on the deepest necessity. Having stated thus mite]: as a bar to the measure, as fat less efficient than that of his Right - Hen. Friend, he apprehended it was no less objkionable. because of its being far more ex pensve. ' His' Right Hon. Friend certainly pi o posed,likit ti rise who were liable to be called on by the prerogative, should he in some sort of organizi floe ; so that, in case of need. thi:y might be able to collect them together, and use them in aid of the army, towards the defence of the country. Rut the Right Hon. Gent. by this 15i11; wishes to make it an officered corps. It was impossible to suppose twat any landed and independent gentlemen would consent to be officers of a great mass of people. to tally unzeqaainted with the first rudiments of the profession ef a soldier; they must therefore be offi cered from the army, whicla would he attended with an immense expence; and, in fatt, he did not be lieve they could spare officers enough from the army for that purpose. Only twenty-four days exercise were to be allowed in the whole, so that the Right Honourable Gentleman 110 sooner puts them into a state of drilling, than he disbands them again ; and that they became less 45cient than those of his Right Honourable Friend, because they were more fleeting in their nature. He thought this Rill was still more objeflionable in a pecuniary point of view, for the expence will be enormous. In regard robis Right Hon. Friend's plan, it was expofted that the people would devote part of their tinie to learn the use of arms, under the regulations of that Bill, by devoting so many hours in such days as they had any leisure, as a kind of security and de fence of their own property, in cases of emergency ; and the only expence that was to be incurred, was that of persons having their daily bread to cam by their labour, for which they were to be al lowed one shilling a-day for every day they should be so taken from their labour : whereas, by this Bill, the Right Hon. Gentleman propose.' to give one shilling a-day to the 200,000 men to be so trained, which would be upwards of 200,0001. a year for a body of men, who, if an Invasion should take place, could not be led against the enemy ; and the Rt. Hon. Gentleman ought to take good care how he disgusts the people with the war, lest they should become insensible to the cause of liberty, and to the rights which they have tO defend. While other nations were getting out of the system of loose troop , , we were getting into it.—Austria bad lately begun to form her population into corps, in imitation of our volunteers.—Bonaparte. when be drew the great body of his regular army into Germany, at use commencement of the war just ended, trusted the defence of France entirely to volunteer corps. This force of the Right Hon. Gentleman, be saial t was not an armed peasatry— nor was it an organised military force—it was no thing more than a kind of militia in time of peace, _an would be foul altogether iitedieicat. If the Right lion. Gentleman wished for a suoplementary 0 orce, let him raise a Supplementary Militia, and let the men know what service they are to perfirrna, and not call on the people to undertake this mo.ley uncertain service, after such a solemn pledge has been given to them. The population has raised the nunshers.mq• lied, and hd insi i rm: that it was as much a breach of faith to carry this Bill j.nto elk& ih the present state and 'mut ity of the cniantry.. as it would have beta to hive carried into elle& the Bill of his Right-Honourable Friend. The Right Honourable Gentleman was now calling oat the country, in a manner that.would Le exceedingly onerous to them, more, he feared. to gratify his plea fondness for speculative plans, than to add any.mil security to the country. He hoped, therefore, bill-. Miters wohld take advice, and • not press Toward this Bill, but if they persist ed, he should eeltAinly oppose it to the utmost of his power. Colonel BAGWELL'explained. ' Mr. MAT I'HE WS spoke very warmly in favour of the Volunteers, whose spirited and patriotic efforts had been so often, ire his opinion, degraded and dis graced, by the treatment they had received froin the Right Hon. Gent)-man, in his speechnin that House. He was afraid this Bill would give the finishing stroke Jo the' Volunteers, and that fhcy would he induced to lay down their arms. They might then, perhaps, he compelled. some of. them at leant, to mix themselves wills this motterasse•h bfage of the fa ht Honourable Gentleman, bait where will be " the Promo bran heat" that may re. 'amine the spark which he has extinguished ? It .never could be. expecileif they would again . come forward, unless you can suppose them to speak in the language of due Jew of Venice, and ad. dress themselves to the Right Hon. Gentleman thus— " Fair Sir, you spit'on us on Welatiolay last—. Yea •pui.l%l u. such a des—amber time You cs'l'd us thtgs—and for the e onotebies— We ~ if-r 5.,., our humble services ..-..... " The lion. Gentleman concluded by saying, that if the voice of Government should prevail on Parlia ment to deny the Volunteers the honourable means to which they were so well ensiled, he feared they would palsy all their efforts, and du an irreparable injury to the interes t s of the country. He would therefore': to against the Bill. Sir W. YOUNG said, Bonaparte had made the French a military nation, and' he feared it would for a long time be necessary that we should be the same. - iris was not to be a temporary, bat a per manent meastne, and he hoped to see not only the 2u0,000 men to be raised out of this Bill, but also the thh.),OJO, and afterwards the 1,200,004 nom out of which they are to be taken, all trained. He expressed himself to be a warm friend to the mea sure. Mr. WILLIAM SMITH coincided in opinion with the Hon. Gent. who had last spoken, and thought that the principal merit of the Bill More them was, that it was calculated to defend the c.ausi. try permanently. He had, on the occasion of the introduerion into that House of the former Leto, en Mane Ilill, expressed his pet-re& approbation of the print ple of it; and the Volunteer Bill, which suc ceeded it, he had always regarded as less meriting adoption, on account of theimmense expence which was to attend its execution, and which must, at no giett length of time, operate its subversion. ' The country, he was ready to admit, was saved by the alacrity r.f the VOldhtters - at the moment of .their comit.g forward; but he was perfectly convi end that the *sight Honourable Gentleman (\lr. Patj now no more, had too much political sagacity to intend the sytem of their incorporation, for a per manent system. The volunteer corps, he was con fident, would, if left to themselves, without an :pigmentation .of those allowanoes which had been granted to them, dwindle to n-thing: be could not then conceive why they should be offended at being apprized of the v,rherneral nature of their constitu tion. The sarcasms which hal beat unj essay at tributed to have been levelled at them, were di rected at the system upon which they were embo died; sod he was satisfied, that nothing was more foreign from the intention of the Right Hon. Secre tary (Mr. Windburn), than at any time to have spoken disreputably f the volunteers themselves. To the great end of establishing a lasting and sure force Tot the defence of the country, he thought no measure could be devised more conducive, than that of drawing out 2 or 300,000 men to be drilled for a-year, and then returned to their menu. failures and employments, whilst others were called upon to undergo the same training ; and thus, in time, every man was qualified for the efficient de fence of his country. The discharge of a certain number of disciplined men from the army, would eminently con lucre to this desirable ohjeet l' it would be turning them into the country, to be, if possible. of mare service thati they would be in the ranks. Ii 10,000 men yearly were discharged, to bestow their knowledge and example on the ge neral levy, the country would in a few years be come more imptegnable than any garrison in the world—would be so in the opinion of all Europe— aad would mut every man of the regular forces disposable in any part of the Globe. We should not then have to blockade an enemy's pert for fear of invasion ; but, so far from its being an empty boast, that we wished for an hostile force to make the at tempt, it would be a legitimate wish—we should have four times the number of the most powerful army that could be landed on our strms, and 'the enemy wools' utterly relinquish the idea of in vading a country, where every man was a soldier. An Mu. Gentleman had recommended, that, in stead of permitting the Volunteer corps to decline in strength, they should be inspeaed by field ofS eers,and such of them disbanded as were found not in proper discipline. Would it not, however, be • an infinitely greater cause of discontent to the Vo lunteers, to dismiss the greater portion of them, with the stigma, that atter being three years em bodied, they were fit fur nothing else but to be dis embodied ? Such was the conciliation proposed by these whe declaimed against the language and Icondo& of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wind ham). For himself, he thought that the Volunteers merited the thanks of Parliament for their services, but that, undo the present system of allowances, it was inexpedient to continue them. The lion. Gen tleman concluded by giving his hearty support to the Bill. ' Mr. PERCIVAL said. be wished, ere he tote to 'speak, to have waited until a Hight Hon. Gentle- f., 11 737 • - man (Mr. Ntitedhans)--sbonid4lLTE disclosed his sentiments; but he had a ions time wait , -? in vain ' • (Hear! bear! from the oppn.ition side or the House) for the information %hid] he. thought was due. is &cumin this measure was contrary to every principle of sotind policy, Mnti Constios muck liberty, and that it went to i!estrny the public falai in' Parliament. Ii the loose looked at the loyaltr and zeal which were nou:isfscd by the Vainteer system, and the and conspuision - which would be engendered in the .bili . beforp • them— compulsion so repuznant to Or feelings of En glishmen—thee cluld decide tsi which the preferences wasalum, beVolunieer Sys tern had eradicated all principles of democracy. , and discontent in the country; that the remission of* might not bring the people 'back to them, be would gnat to their gond , sense; but he was sure that the Right Hon. Gent. would pit that good sense to a hard trialf iber! Tho Hon. and Learned Gent. then proceeded to deicant Von the language of Mr. Windham, as applied to lunteer Corp, in former debates, and was about to quote, from a paper in his band, past of that gen tienvan't speech on the 4th of August, laud. as ree ported by a man, whom, he said. Mr. Wha.illana had himself described as deserving a golden statue. when, Mr. PAUL spoke to order, and said, that he had. upon a former es .nceasion. been denied the privileges of reading an extraft frets) a similar report. The SPEAKER s:sid. :my reference to, phrases and speeches in furner Debates VMS cer tainly irregular. Mr. PE RCIVAL aid, he bowed to t!lihneethes. ritv of the Chair, but thought that sums hue ought to-he draVM with respeft to this restridion, or the House Might be deptived of the advantafte of re. • ferring to the sentiments of any great person - for in formation, as he did nte. know that they mild bet acquired, but by a reference to lintorv. Ile - had been anxious not to misrepresent the 'Right Hon. Gentleman (slr. Windham).• The case to which Ina was about to allude, was that wherein that Right Hon Gentleman took occasion, in speaking of the Lissy-re-Maim to say. that he considered the volunicer carps would °prime to the injury of that Bill, as being a refuge and retreat from it. It Gets. tlerr.en had any recolleftion of the famous debate about thanking the volunteers-- - - - .• Mr. PAUL again called to order. and said that no opinieri expressed on former occasions ought to be cited--(a load cry of chair chair ! rbnir !) tbte SPEAKtR said, he had always understood it to be irregular to4llude to opinions expressed on former occasions by Hon. Members ; but the House well knew, that their striaest rules in that respect were often disregarded. and therefore he Lad not , interrupts ai the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. PAUL was again iasistingeon the irregula rity of the Rigln lion. Gentleman. when Mr. BRAGGEfrose to call the attention of the House to the respea rich was due to the opinion of the Chair ; as a young Member, the Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Paul) was perlmei eteurable; but lie should know, that artless he intended to eon:rovers the opinion of the Chair, by a division of the House, there was no appeal. Mr. PEItCIVAL then pp cceded. Ile suppose that the Right Hon. &dietary ( Mr. Wind A J J - ham) had said, that, the Volenteers would bk a great :epithet, (or .panic, if they were not 41' panic themselves, and that a ;Ai:36u, offfeervetweld • be desirous to :et rid of them, and, in the situation of a wrestler, to have clear ground.--He wished tw know, whether the 200,000 inert were to be ailed our and trained,. even should 300,000 Volonteeek continue. enrolled? or whether the Volunteeis con. tinning inforce or not, was to rnska no d'fference at all in the number of men to be trained ?—:4O estimate whatever was yet furnished of the ex pence of this foie., nor any information what stuiption cf °dicers His Majesty was to be id powered ta appoint over it. The Honourable Genileman concluded, by expressing his cenvidion, that if the-Volunteers bad been addressed in a tono of conciliation, instead of the mauler in which they had been, and teld that ;bey must 'Attila at a re, dated etpenee, they would with as ranch readiness ~ have stripped off their lace, and served then country is an unadorned codt, as they had origi nally enrolled themselves. Mr. B.:TIIURST, at some Length, supported the Bill. Mr. Secretary WINDHAM, would not, at that late hour, and after the able speeches which had been delivered in support of the measure, a'ouse the patience of the House, by detaining them May Mnitti..s. He was much sarprsed, that atter Its had been so repeatedly reproached for having said too much in oper.iag his measures, he • WAS now accused of being too taciturn, and had hardy expedl to Le eafged to repeat, in every stage, erust he had advanced in the outset, With res2ea to the Vaunt:7m, he undoubtedly should lr..ve been glad to have had them continued, if they cAuld Le made such as they were originally entchd ed to be, namely, mums of better condkion, serving at their own expence. Hear! Afar!) The Right Hon: Gent. then briefly noticed the arguments which had been urged against the bill. bet without elicitiag any new matter ; and en tirely disavowed all the calumnies which he was alleged to have spoken of the volunteers. Mr. CANNING intimated his intention to oppose e Bill, should it, as he anticipated, be unputged of its objeflit.nable parts in the Committee. The question was then carried, without a division, and the Herne having revived itself into a Corn, mittee, the Chairman reported progress, aucl mined leave to sit again on Thursday next. On the motion of Lord HENRY PETTY it was ordered, that the House should this day resolve itself into a Cbmmittee, to consider of the salaries to be allowed to the persons who should be ape pointed Comcnuioners for auditing the public ac. counts. The Report of the Committee for preparing guns• Bess to be put to Sir James Craig, who was to be examined as a vr'ness in supoort of the charge against Nlarqu:s Wellesley, v.:3 brought up. but alter a long conversatitn, it was agreed. on account 'id of the lateness of the hour, tw at the consideratios should be po.:pmed until to-morrow. ttelp i e Qu ot i ller at O i. r . d vv ers o or .c tb L e o l,/ c a i l , b:Zsg o arpongszoncd,