The Sun. — London, England, 1802-04-28 00:00:00

tre repeated the objections to this sill which he }tad - advanced on a firmer occasion. lie cootended that its provisions betrayed an unfair partiality to Ireland. He said that we ought not to 11-get the Hipulatiwas which Ireland had agreed to in 1782, on being admitted to a participation of our Colo nial. Trade-=nor ought we rashly to do away these Stipulations. The Duty imposed on Imports to this Country, would - a& as 'a Bonus to the Traders, of Ireland. He thought the Duty on Tonnage a measure particularly id-judged. Oor TrAle was at present as dull as it had been before the Treaty of. Peace was signed—nor was there any ground to expect a speedy turn in its favonr—and why then. clog it by this new imposition ? This Duty would add to .an evil which had already gone to too great a height, the iutroduCtion of foreign Shipping into our Trade. He stated 'that four foreign Ves sels to one British were employed in our Import Trade. He then adverted to several articles of Commerce in which he . thought this Duty would speedily turn the balance . in favour of Ireland, to the great prejudice of ;his country. He concluded by deprecating the hasty adoption of a measure which involved such important consequences. The CHANCELLOR of he EXCHEQUER said, he heard the Hon. Member's ohj &ions with re gret ; and with the more regret ; as they came froin the representative of a commercial city which bad flourished, during the war, and 'had even derived Many advantages from it. -.He Aid not exped to have heard any-Gentleman object to the principle of this bill ; yet surely it was the intention of the Honourable Member to do so, or he would not have introduced his'obje'clions in this stage of the bill ; an objection to•the principle of the bill had been direa ly urged in his speech. Yet surely no principle could be more just than that those who have gained by the burdens of the Natidn„.should also bear a proportion of them ; and it could clot bedenied, that the com mercial world had been gainers by the 'War. So great security had been given to trade during - the War, that only a moderate insurance was required; and the convoy-duty became at last a direct tax on trade, and it was cheerfully borne. The question, then was, whether circumstances had so changed as to render it expedient to remove this Tax ? and if such a change could not be proved to have taken place, it was surely improper to take it off when so great an expenditure was to be provided for. No' objection bad formerly been made to this Tax, when imposed during the War in the shape of Convoy-Duty : No objection could be made to it; as during its operation, trade, instead of declining had wonderfully increased.—From the -returns made in the last Session of Parlia ment, it appeared that on an average of six years preceding 1793, our Imports had amounted to 190,000,6001, per annum ; whereas in tBor, they amounted to 240,000,0001. and in the month of Ja nuary of that year alone they increased t 0,000,0001. Our Exports taken at the same periods had increased from 6 to T 7,030,0001. the increase in number of our ships amounted to 2799, and the increase of tonnage to 365,000. ,During this increase the present tax operated, and yet it still continued up to tBoz. It then temained to be considered, if our Export and Import Trade was likely to be *dirni'- nished by this duty. Different opinions might be entertained about the future state of our Trade ; hut for his own part he was convinced that the footing gained by the commerce of Great Britain was so solid, that it could not fail to maintain its ground for a long course of yearS. The indisputa. .ble superiority dour manufactures, the greatness of our capital, the credit we give, and the good faith we observe, must prevent any Power in the uni. verse from entering into a competition with us. Where Was that Power which could command so many vessels, to carry her commerce to the. Most distant parts of the world ? With regard to that . Nation to which our jealousies, and apprehensions were particularly directed, the difficulty lately ex perienced to procure ships for a most important ex. pedition, was a proof that that Nation' could not, for many years to come, enter into a competition with us. There might from particular cir cumstances, a dirninutton in some particular article of our commerce ; but with regard to our com merce upon the whole, there was no reason or ground to suppose for a moment that any diminution would take place. But the Hon. Gentleman expressed great dissatis fjaion on.account of the indulgencies which he said were shewn to Ireland : that this exemption in favour of Ireland would operate in a propor tionate degree to the disadvantage of Great Britain. It was unnecessary far him to enter into a compara tive•statemebt of the situation of the two different parts of the kingdom ; it was enough for him to say, there was a great dissimilarity between them at .present-'—would to God they were both alike; but he hoped the time was , approachirig when there, would bean end of that dissimilarity. There was, however, a circumstance to which he should beg leave to call the attention of.the House. He meant the state of the linen trade ; and as,lteland was not charged with import duties on the raw material, he thought it due to the manufacturers of Great Britain, that they' should experience a similar advantage ; . bat he would call on the Hon. Gentleman to say, whether Ireland had any material advantage beyond its due proportiOrr. I t , the export of linen, flax, &c. the regulation which was applied to Ireland was applied also to Great Britain.. 1-le was indeed un 'able to state a manufadure or branch of trade in which Ireland was benefited in at i yr considerable de-: gree to the disadvantage of Gi4at Britain. The Hon. Gentleman said the measure before the House was an instance of an unusual partiality : he said, that this tax had continued, and ;ias to be mr i de to continue on Great Britain, while Ireland ,was free from it. . Let not the Hon. Gentleman imagine, it was intended at all events, and 'under all possible circumstances, to continue this duty. exclusively on the trade of Great Britain, and that time exemption to Ireland was to continue for ever. He wished that erroneous supposition to be done away : he wished the measure now before the House to be 'considered as a measure of experiment. If, upon the trial of that experiment, it should be found a measure injurious to the trade of Great Britain, he would say, let it he abandoned "altogether. If, on the contrary, it should be found beneficial, and if the trade of ireiand should inmate, as- he confr. dently trusted it would, for he indeed believed., the period Would arrive] and he believed also it was not very remote, when it would be proper, in his opinion, to try the same experiment on the trade of IreNid. Heevould`therefore say, that this .mea_ . sure was an experimental measure, both to Great Britain and to Ireland. Experimental to Great Britain, as applying to its trade now, and at the same time waiting for that increase in the trade of Ireland, when it might be made applicable to that country.. 'lf Lreland continued as it is, then he should not think• it proper to apply this Measure to its trade ; but if it advanced in trade; ind ap proached to 'that of Great Britain, it ought to par cielpate in the burthens necessarily imposed on that' -of Great Britain. •The Hon. Gentleman said, the course now. proposed to the House was unusual and partial with regard to Ireland, and he applied his observations to Scotland and to Wales. -The state ment was incorred. There are duties attaching on 'articles of consumption in this country, from which Scotland was exempted. A duty on barley, and on malt and beer, would prove the justness of this ob 'serration. There was a - difference also in the. duty ,:on salt, as it applied to England and to Scotland in a word, there were many instances in which there was a distinction made in the taxation, as between England and Scotland, upon one and the same ar 7 ticle ; so that dine was no foundation for ,the tindion in the present measure being unequal. The Hen. Gentleman also said, that there now is, and.for some time has been a considerable disproportion - of Foreigivinstead of British shipsemployed in our trade. That was pettedly true, ,and it arose from this cause—the trade of this-Country had increased with such rapidity, that it was impossible to supply its demand? without calling in the,aid of Foreign Ships ; but itid it follow from thence that British Shippiog was not to find employment ? Did it follow, that, because during the War, the demandof our com merce and extent of our trade was such that. our own Shipping was not enough for it, that therefore the trade will be carried on in Foreign Ships in prefer ence to ours ? By no means, nor was the fad of Our having employed Foreign Shipping at all discourag ing, on the contrary, it proved the-last increase of our Trade. So that instead of the comment of the Honourable Gentleman, that our Slipping would decline, he thought it was good grotind of con fidence in an increasing Trade, and still greater prosperity. The Hon. Gentleman. had .laid consi derable stress on that which must be lamented, that was, the present stagnation in our Exisort Trade— this he admitted ; from causes that were •ofierous to us, there certainly had been of- late, a suspension to a .considerable degree, or at least a stagnation in several parts of that Trade; but it was to be re- Membered, that during the' Negotiation, our Mer chants followed a circuitous' route, which occasioned much of this inconvenience, and ' they were under the necessity of doing so ; but this afforded .a good reason for apprehending that, as the course is now different, the effed will be different also, unless the Hon, Gentleman meant. to say, that the evil was so serious that we are not likely to recover it ; an opinion which, he apprehended, but few would he disposed to adopt. Indeed, many of the observa tions of the Hon. Gentleman were such', as he be lieved would not,gain many converts, and the an swers to them were such as to himself, Mr. AD-. DINGTON said, ecarried with them their own solo_ tion.—lt was true, as the Bon. Gentleman had said, there was at present a great redudien in the price' of Freight ; this he was ready to admit, and he was willing to admit also, that this would,affed the Ship Owners—but not to the degree which the Hon. Gentleman apprehended, and that for causes which he had stated already.—Let the Hon. Gentleman Only consider, that many circumstances would go in diminution of the disadvantage to the Ship Owner, from the reduction of freight :• that Seamen's wages must necessarily be reduced, as alsO the price of tln:, necessaries of life, from the happy change of seasons. The expence of the Crew .would be diminished, and the price of Insurance, as far as the hazards of War, which, indeed, never had been very great, but such as they were, they were ,now done away ; and, ,from various causes, 'which were too obvious to be enumerated, the absobte certainty of the operation of which, such as reduction in Seamen's wages, and in the price of the articles . of life, as he had already stated, by which it was most clear,- that the expellee of the out-fit of our Shipping would be materially . diminished ; and when the Hon. Gentleman gave to these points the consideration which was,due to them, he would not have.the same apprehension as he had lately expressed with regard to the Ship Owners. The Hon. Gentleman had declared that this was a hasty measure ; in answer to which, lie would venture to say, that no measure was ever less liable than the present to that objection, or one to which that denomination was less applicable.. In the first place, the measure itself had been already tried for three years—and suspended for a while, as the House very well knew, for about three months ; then-made the subject of a Resolution- in a Committee of Ways and Means, and which Resolution had been before the House for three week S—so that with regard to the charge of its being a hasty mea sure, the facts stood thus—lt was one of which the House had experience in three years of War House had known that the subject was to come into -discussion again many months ago, and a Resolution had been entered into upon it three weeks ago.— Upon the reason of adopting it, he had to observe, that the Executive Government had consulted with many persons , of.great experience .and knowledge, persons best qualified to form an opinion upon it, and they had uniformly approved of the measure, without hesitation, or the slightest doubt of its propriety ; so that on the proposition, that the SPEAKER do now leave .the Chair, to see it'opposed upon the principle of the measure, occasioned his re -oer t.--A measure s'O recommended, a-measure voted on the 9th of Aprilif_ttncifrom that time to rile present, no objection offetbil on which any great stress was laid till now ; nor were any of its attributes, or any :Part of its character said to be unjust. With re sped to the 'complaint of the Hon. Gentleman, as to certain doubts on particular' articles to which he re ferred, the observations to be made on them could only be regularly made in the. Committee; but would observe, even here, it was intended, by - him to prOpose certain alteration's in the Conlnittte, which, as far as they went, would have. the effect Of encouraging the Merchant in the way or Imports anti* Exports also—The Duty in certain cases had .been --made to attach ad valorem, but it was note interidtfd to be a rated Duty; there was no ad dition'to the Impott Duty beyond a fifth of die ori ginal Duty, and ail; iedudion on the article -of-Ex ports was exadly one half, as applied to the trade .carried on hy___this Country to any part of the - Europe excepier.L-Under --- nd - thee . cireurn - - stanceslie was entitled to say;'that Government had shewn an anxiety on'the, subject of a pressure on a trade in time of Peace, the effia of which, he be lieved to have been much over-rated. The aug mentation on the y Import was really.only one-tenth, and the Duty on our Navigation and Shipping re mained the same.—fie was not disposed at this time, because it -would be irregular,:, to state the terms on which. relief was intended to be- afforded to our Merchants respel to the operation of. this Duty, ,because that:belonged :properly to the Committee ; but he thought the. regulations could not fail to be satisfadory hOW ever; any part of it—slmul-d—be—otherwise, he should not be found adverse ' to. any further, necessary amendment.,- , =-What he wished to be kept constantly in view was, that this was' to be consi dered'as an experimental measure; and as - far as the subj-dS of Imports and Exports were concerned, the House would recoiled that notice had been already given of a measdre.tO be proposed. in the next Ses sion of Parliament, for consolidating the Duties of Customs, and then every article Might again bk:Come . the subjed of discusSion Under these circumstances, he did not. think he should be justified in abating in 'the slightest' de. glee his earnest desire, that the House would neither diseourage nor discountenance: this Bill. He did not see the danger which the E-1 n. Gentleman had expressed, from adhering - to the. Resolution of the Committee of Ways and Means, even if the whole of that Resolution .were now proposed to he adopt ed, precisely as it had been voted ; but 'he should propose, that certain modifications of is should , take place. Above all, he hoped the, House would not retral the sentiment it had already expressed on this measure, on account olobjedions which Might be specious, but which, on careful examination, would not be found to be solid. _ , _ . General GAitoYNE having said, a few words in explanation; • - The CHANCELLOR 'of the EXCIIEVJER said, he:trusted the House would. allow him , to sa:y a few words, which-escaped him in recollection when'he spoke last. He meant op the subject of the state of Ireland and Great Britain in the year. 1781. Upon this he understood the;Honourable Gentle Man to take' notice of the advantage given to Ireland in the .Colonial- -Trade,--Now upon this ,the lion. Gentleman should recollea, or rather pauSe for moment, and consider the Si Ella : tion of this Country and, of . Ireland in the year 1781, and consider it at the present moment, and compare them. In .the "year ,•1781, Great Britain , had-the excluaive sovereignty of all Colonial, affairs, and could regulate all Colonial 'Trade as she might think proper, and therefore she could annex what ever conditions she pleased to any boon she granted' to Ireland in that partieut , ar ; but the caw was now otherwise, for Ireland was at the present moment a branch of the British Empire, upon a footing with Great Britain upon consideration of all future enaEt ments in these respetls, and, therefore, as she can neither receive the Colonial, nor any other trade, as a boon, but as making a part of . the British Empire, . the same sort of terms could not now beimposed to suit the relative situation . of the two. Countries. Ire land now received every thing. upon an equal right with Britain ; - or rather she was now to be con sidered as a part of Britain. He hciped he' should not be contradieted by his Learned Friend, .as, by some gesture he once aPprehended, upon the effea of the Pia of Union, that was to say„ hii construc tion on the meaning of the Acct of Union, which, to speak in general terms, was no other than to place the two Countries on the same footing, ex cept Where the , difference is created by tlieAa of Unipnitself, He thought this was a judi.mode of . reasoning, and he' thought it was sound doarine— • Just .reasonind, because there could be - no "principle' of Union to ,which that doarine did not,-apply---, sound doctrine, because it was advantageous to both Great Britain and Ireland. The principle which obtained before the Union was done. away by that great ineastire•itself, except as far as any, thing was retained.by:.special reservation ; and this, he conceived to be a sufficient answer to what had' been said on the Aarof 178 z. • . . • ROBERT• PEEL said; that those wi - thl, whom the measure originated, had, no doubt,. weighty reasons for bringing it forward; but this measure might nevertheless he injurious in a way : that would not beithmediately obvious. It, would . be recolleaed that our Commerce had'ilourished and. been carried to a vast extent during the War, when . it encountered no competition. ' Al change had now, taken place ; a considerable Debt had been incurred in consequence of that . War, which necessarily um- . posed an additional ex'pence on every "article of manutaCture, which the. MantifaCturersanusf charge upon', the Purchaser. We could now meet our com petitors in Foreign Markets on the grounds tit and cheapness only, and if the consumer could meet with articles cheaper than those of oar Mani). faCturers, he would very probably prefer those , which he could procure at a cheaper rate. He r trusted the House would consider well before thex sanctioned a measure, the operation of which might be injurious to our own Foreign .Trade. It had been observed, that the Course of Exchange . was against us, and it could not be otherwise, unlesS we could send our goods at a cheaper rate to Foreign • Markets. With respea, to the Convoy Duty, he had highly approved of 'it at the time it was im. posed, but i Jie did conceive that it would cease at the end of, ; _the War, and. that other Duties, if ne cessary, -wottld then be imposed, more suitable to ithe circtinagances of the, Country.. The principal reasoni l kowever, of his rising was, to object to the partialoperation-of the Tax. It had been for 'merly laid down as a.principle, that the advantages 'given to the manufactures of 'lreland should be equally extended to those of this Country. Some ofrthe manufactures of Ireland. had been nursed with peCuliar care the linen manufacture had thrown this Country "out of all competition, and the cotton , • to riv , i 1 manufat tu re of that Country SCMlett 1 .'..,er,Y -- ... , ' that article manufactured in Great Britain' 01 „ lamented that . the Right Hon. Gentleman who h;'°' framed the Union, had not been able to render that measure so Complete as he wished, in Consequence could uclidrc not control. a o n n c t e r s ol. which Ireland that Right possessed,Hon. present advantages which this Country did not, al 0 ,., '• heethouglir there was a - sufficient reason why the' . burdens of this Country should also be burdens on that. A considerable injury might otherwise arise'', and Ireland, having the advantages which Sr'he os- , H e --wonl o . sessed„ had no right to . complain. venture to - sity,' 'that toool. employed in Ireland af t tic Export Trade,. would produce greater return! than the same sum e:nployed in the same 'ma)! ill hoGiweengtiere72a¢: this Country. He was much mistaken 'if the pre' ' sent measure did .not trench upon the A& of lin° (he then de s i re d t h e 6 t h Article of - the Linion t°l :: read, which w as .. read -by the Clerk) —he did 11-- deny that it might have been an object to better the condition of Ireland, but it certainly never could have been in contemplation to place England in worse situation than it was before. There Wer e ', reasons why the Coilvoy - Duty should not ext end t° Ireland at the time it was imposed, as that Country was then labouring under domestic troubles, an d incapable-, of commercial exertion ; but he t rusted: the House would maturely relied before the y, sanctioned the present measure lb the m anner irs which it had been proposed. - Mr. CO,R.RY. said, he would forbeaernaki n g s an - r t observations on the policy of the. • "fa o t s : r - o l ci respeded Great Britain : he would only that the trade of this Country having flourished could increased under the operation Of this Tax, he ° a o not conceive there was any ground of appreliensiLifol in 'thepresent instance, that it would now s us he - by its continuation. - With regard- to Ireland , ~, . wished to say, a few words with respec to i v ,o b et . was called the Colony Compaft. -- By that, i 4 ,',,e Great Britain had granted to Ireland the p6/ . ' s . • of trading to her Colonies under certain conditi°rtnu'i Which Ireland accepted under.these Conditions, but whatever that 'COnipaa was, he contended thatby r W e l i l g iC n i t l ie th , ejundion of the So t of was completely merged. in, the Aft of uni on ' e - .. e o r t e ' t he y a two a c°ill Countries. it ' et The Padi a . iri l e- t h6' Ireland_ then . became completely united - w' r i l co , Parliament of this Country, and ente.rect.i ol ° a so , enjoyment, and became jointly possessed of t ` le i• t i, vereignty,of these Colonies.' TheYliire ther e a ° . no longer bound by the Compaft winch' the , r ~,, parties had entered into, as those two part ies °he ing become one, their rights were-necessarily' t . c • 1 same ;- and he trusted -that it was.impossible to go ia any interpretation to the Aa of Union,.'that wnt',, not admit the rights of Ireland to trade to the 1? to tish Colonies. The Hon. Baronet had referred is an Artiele of the Union relative to the equall'ig i a ofboth partiei : .ihe opinions, ' and. the charaaekce, that Hon. Baronet, were 'entitled to very 14 1 'p, i sped, but the Articles referred to by the 1 1" . tile ronet .. related . wholly to the rights of tra„de; ilic re m present easeire - i.vns .. a • subjeft :of taxation, w`. c ie was totally and entirely different. Let` the I.l lp , of- the Union, respecting Taxation-, he reTert-e 5 to , Whii was the import of that Article ? Ir' r ' a nu r.... be lamented that the Union between the tw" 'f a t.. tries could not he entirely completed ; but it_., l ,iiica tunately happened that : their Exchequers re"''hosc distind,- and 'of course the foutidatiOns of E r ie- Exchequers, the taxation, of the two C° the tbc The Felon: Baronet could not find anV Articl e ' 1 , 1 604 1 Aft of Union that implied an equality . of 1 • 3.‘ ,/ " 0 14 . between the two Cou n trie s ; :' a nd he Lfziitki ai l i , j hiCh tcrproduce any part of the :Ad. of Union ll - " re to it could be sheW n th a t t he Taxes of Ireland w e j oi be .. equal to those. of England. He was of O i ' in i as , therefore, that 'thewHon: Baronet' was cotire r it i „o • takn in endeavouring *to Make the...ACt c'. 1 ; of serve the purpose of proving - that the taxat l° Gre at 1 Ireland ought necessarily to equal that of but :, Britain. Ireland was neither able to beor ti ' e to 'da dens of this Country, nor was she called uPpnieci'de, it. if was for the judgment of the I-l o uSe tO ' t eat in what manner Taxes should be imposedli' l) ' ite.' it : was necessary. to, extend the present: lu"'''' t /le wholly he holly denied; that .it. wasivil'e r di T e ; la o a in could not allow. The circustahces. - (71 ''' !lei' would not 'justify its extension'to thltt countrytwer6 ther did they Call for it; on the contra' • .yLiu'r rip oft d strong reasons why it should not be: imp ose t large Ireland. It was not then, the time to curet ",. it leo' into the trade-of Ireland, but in the course 0 . : 0, that days he Should have an ,opporttmit Yof discuss' '1- t he , subject, when' he would occupy, the .6 0 'e- c . e . was , 1 House by some observations 'upon it. T h u e l ionct , one circumstance - mentioned by the Hon . ',"` Cot' to which he 'wished to allude, relative to t .' c i th e f Oil a .t i ton Trade. He had drawn Soill2 bei , i bier lilt '' ' pipers' on the Table with resped to t, , woo l ail ,. from which it- appeared thao.the Cotton ' ve oge . , nually .irnported into 'lreland was of the ,, a c o ttc 4 , value of 1.1 7,0001. while the value of 1 - 1 ' 491° WOol imported:into G i seat Britain was 2, 3 91 j wit l ; The value of the manufaCtured Cotton,. mit e 1, a ria ' some linen exported - from. Ireland was 12:135 Gre of the manui'adured Cotton exported " .°I h i e °- Britain, • elf. T. - j 1495061. 'was exported to Ireland 1° ~ COlfi l 4, 7 ' S,OOOI. of which' to the va Tho s then stood Ireland in Competition with th' , o3 IIY exported to Ireland itself a part of its Ina n . are tatij e try... It appeared that Great Britain. ha d irf 7eture l cot ton, not withstanding all that had been sa l cc o f Ire' to the. competition of the• Cotton Mant 66t ," the lef° re ' , land with that of this Country. that fulthet apprehension on this head, on c su ch ar the Han. - ail rent, would cease ;. at any at • t s eNr e , 1301 in 1 51- , preliensiobs could not apply to the 1 to 't ~ P Y rimental stage, however they might g - was v er; milar measure at a future period. e, he 1 .00;. glad to hear froth the Hon. Baronet, and . ed i n era°, c loye - the ed it with pleasure, that 10061. cruP recur than He in .Ireland would produce He trusteo,the port 01 gre ater re t- li ere: -,.)., . . ; i ° "eaits same stun employed in the same triwr e _ r bo k iiiP Pro s hoped_ it would induce capitalists - in n fie IVlanuladures of Ireland, by vvh-cl' - s ea. d be l ea e xcep t sperity and its resources - Avoid 'eft i be Man ° had nothing more to urge upon the 5° J igture , 31 , that with respcd to the Linen Pu t urn" b , ~ thought. the two countries might bc . cu l t ure., , I to AO . c ovitn Fcra,l fooling . , To that ant. ~_ aop tie trusted the capital of Ireland would 1 . 1 r increased excision and drat.. A I