The Sun. — London, England, 1807-03-27 00:00:00

A ed n- :y :accompanied with -Mt. Pitt's assurance to adhere - to it equally, whether-he should be in or out of office.. On this principle Mr. Pitt came into office in 1804. Re would ask the •I‘foble Baron who had opened this 'discussion, on the other. side, whether, if the offer that • had been made.• to him at that time..to, come into office with Mr. Pitt bad been in other respeel% so agreeable as to have itiduced'him! to accept . it, he would have insisted on the right of stating Iss opinions in favour of this Catholic mea stire'? The consid etat i on o f t h e . quest i on w a s at all times a- consideration . of expediency, which Should . be weighed maturely ; but though the oath :of 'office hound each of his Majesty's Counsellors to ad% ise • him to the- best of ••his • judgtrient. and discietion •in such cases,- there: were,. other .con... Siderationa •Isc? ,that.,pegln to be included. The condua of the late IVlieisterS with respe& to the )2.111 they brolighi forward, was sobjeet to the. imptitationthat thee hat:either, brought itfora s yarcl lightly; zwithout sufficient,,occ.asion, or without sill; ficierit- grounds, or if they . had sufficient groUnds in bringing it.forWard, they surrendered It in disregard _of - their oath - of Oftke, Which binds them in all cars . • to give advic&tb he:besa of their judginegt.,. As_ to the-Ple4g,e,derrianded,by his Majesty,* th4lie . slnitild" - • not he again troubled otalliS question, that-arose' from thereservation' With -Which themeasure .then .trfere,. ParliaMene.was given.np, . It,Avas,eee • thing to retain former_ opinions. as individual Members of Parlia :mem, and another thing to 'state those opinion's •as• 11 / 4 161bbet's of Parliatbetit-in• sho.sirttation :ol,M;eisters . of the Crown,.withall the .. weight and influence an melted to-that station. Was it for his Mitjesty to ex - pose.himielftd be chnsiantly disturbed on a matter, with fespecf - to' the rethsal .of tivltfchr he.had already for Med a clear, ditinct, honoerable t : ueidierable, and conscientious determination, ? He did not:blame the late:Ministers fur their adherence to th&r•own opi= miring, 'but they ought to allow the Sovereign, whom they praised so • much, some, right to maietain bisopinion ; and after their attempt , to make the condi : tionsthat had been stated to him, it was not surprising that he wished tascc.hre himself by requiring a corres pondinglf pledge•frorn;them. cases which had been opposed with•respeCt to Ire•. land should arise, it would be an aukward thing deed if any of his' Majesty's Ministers should be - in I the situation - to-get aip and•sayto his Majesty, all.this ,j has happened by your adhering to your own opi-, Dions, and not to my advice. He disliked those suppositions of disastrous cases, those ,prophecies of thrown out on this occasion by Noble Lards erz the other side, for those who made such prophe- cies had always a disposition to realize them, or at least a wish to see them realised If men in office Nd.opiqiou s different from those:oftheir Sovereign,-" he did'not say they ought. to give their opinions , • up ; but - if the Sovereign cold find other servant* 1 Who would undertake to conduct the Goveroment . Without requiring this - sacrifice, he had certa.nly the . righrto appoint and make use of them. These. parsons might think, that by pursuing other conciliatory measures with respe& to lreland, for this was not the only concitheory measure, and 11911 e but cOuciliatorY Measures could be pursued, that part of_ the .Empire Might be. ivell and kindly governed without this sacrifice. From the whole of the statement made, he thought that the late Ministers, upon their own j chewing, had been properly dismissed, after the con dition they had proposed to his Majesty-had put him the necessity of seeking retiof from others, who thought, like hula, that the measure under Collsidera ti"Ll ought not to be granted without tin ess,ential necessity. This proceeding of his Majesty, and the ac quiescence of those who were now Iris Majesty's Servant s was justified by the coridat of those, who; thot,gi, first holding the measure so essential - as to be iodated to bring it forward, afterwards thought it so *little essental as to concede if to the Sovereign, at the same time that they inad6.it a point Ot'ditty . to maintain their ownopiuionsgenerally; intlepen - dent of the Sovereign's wishes. Lord GRP:A:VILLE, ion answer to the question-of . the Noble Lord, who asked whether, when it. was Proposed to - him by Mr: Pitf,whiatn he venerated and revered, to take a part' in the Administration formed ,in 1804 he would, if all other things had been 'agreed upon, have insisted on the:tight- ofppeaking bii opinion upon the Catholic question r stated, that' it was in the knowledge of some persons, that he ivas prepared to insist on that right in its fullest . amount, and that no consideration - could have itt ducvd him to accept an office, either with Mr. Pitt, or with any other man, without a full and distinct - recognitiOn of that right.:.: Lord HOLLAND expatiated on the necessity of. uniting all the. people, and Attaching their physical and moral force to the military power that was, now ...so much wanted, for purposes of offensive and de .fensive w ar . A t a tune when Russia, whose reli gion was nearly Catholic, was engagel in a war for • the cause of the religion in this Countty, and all the religions of Europe, and the world, in the midst of the Catholic -country of Poland, it would be injuri eus to insist on _religious exploded restriaions here. He was sure it. must'be a misu n d erstan di ng i n t h e - Royal mind that led to the late circumstance. No person could think Of throwing the blame of that ou a quarter with respe& to which every one would -Wish to be delicate. Bilt that was all that could be • •7 saia. As to the rest, he maintained the right of the :late Minister s to support their own Opiniinas and - also rtahe propriety of inticitatihg" that determination to their Sovereign. Sikh a proceeding was much more - .„becomieg .than' a silent resolution, after which they May come forward with ra display of their opinions, • 'Then, it was least expeeted by the Sovereign, to iS greatsarprise and annoyance. , --- Lord CdßNAßVONcemmended the late Mini . 'liters for their refusal to give a pledge which' would t -debar them frointhe free exercise of their constitu ; tional duty to advise the King to the best of their judgment and discretion. It' 'the present. Ministers • had given such a pledge they were guilty of high -treason. Lola 1 1411/KESBLRY denied that such a pledge ba.d given or asked. If differences existed.be the King and his Ministers, it was bettei they -: should separate. It was essential to the good of the Country that the Sovereign and his Ministers should be unanimous and an. A therefore it was fortunate if his majesty had found a set of men who thought as he . .did on the subject that bad been particularly under • cliseussaon. Some explabat:on took place between Lord HoL-- LON HAWKssistilty, and Lord CA/UN:Atli/ON, ; . The Earl of BucicivciviAmsmigE, said; it I was acid to the Irish Pairlianient 'that the ./i6t or I 4 t 7 11164 . bk 010e0ed to • Dricl4l and tOthe Nky;, with respect to which the Gish . Parliament 'had no power. The pYesefit Ministers_cante in on . a ciple adverse, to further concession. Tle thought it right to state here, however, that the concessio.rs then made by the Irish Parliament to the eatho:ies were the full extent Of what the Irish Parham-tilt Was disposed to concede to that body. As 'to the matter that had_ been prindipally before the HorArr., he knew nothing of the circumstances connected with it. 'He deprecated the use of the Sovereign's name, .now. for the first time introduced into debate.' But if clift'eiei:lces existed bet Ween the Sovereign and: - his Ministers, it becanaen - matter of necessity that his Majesty should change. Lord 4:liW N E maintained that the Catholic. Queition• had little cot - ilet - lion With the question .be fore their Lordships relating to the cause ofthe change in Administration. He had' entertained opi nions different from those of his colleagues as to the expediency .OP pressing - ,the Royal - mind upon the• Catholic Question. It was immaterial to inquire ihto the.precise origin of the misconception that had arisen between his A s tiesty and his 'Ministers i When - that misconception WaSlOuridlo exist, the Bill was Abandoned. The nropilett of reserving the right of advising the Crown on a lioint of importaot and in creasing policy, he entirely.coiticided in ; and though' he agreed most fully in his Majesty's sentiments with' respea to the particular question, he would himself be • as tit' as'any man from giving such a pledge, even with respect to that question. Resenting the right, it was also highly proper to make the reservation dis tinalLknowb: The late Ministers had giveu up the measure they . I)ll'firopOsed, because they thought - it unwise at tine thue to hazardia distolutiou Of the Government, or.a4 - iolation of his Maj,t,irysf e etio,s, by pressing ihe_pholics might haiTe iooked for relief. But now he feared they would ii - ruk npori the pi6ent Administration 'ls founded on .a• principV of granting :them no. fartWr concession. He would• make no invidious observations em those Whri had 'advised his Majesty to the change of Ministers. would only state, that the criSis %;1 7. as most . evehtful',) and that theirtordships ought to thick to what an ex,- tent,tbe things that had been done, may . influence the results of this critical Situation. — '- • Lokd BUCKINGHAMSHIRE- explain e d, that nothing that he had 'said could farifeily,a key to . the sYsteni. it was , intended ,to pursue .with respk.t ,to Ireland, He was no Minister, nor had any office under •'Ministers. 'd o..isi(in. of both Houses'On the Catholic Qtiestidti last year, - would ,have mote etieel in de; erring tlw Catholics front presentin,; their Petition, than any thing any Minister 601,\1d say. _ The Marquis - of' STAITOZD gave - notice, that 00 Wednesday ntiijtt, he, would submit to their Lordships a Motion 911 the subjeCt matter of the cot,-' versation that had i t ti plai-efrthi night. It was ordered'that the- Lords,. be Itimmoned for Wednesday se'nnight. • Lord HA.wxEsuulzy wished the Noble Lord to state the nature of the Motion he itacttded to :ifer. The Marquis of STAITbRD'gn-ve no explanation. 4djourned at Twel.o oViock ,Pt.tdt.esday sOitzlit. • HOUSE OF 00.11 MONS. THURSDAY, MAKCH 26. Mr, SIizRIQ,IN.I)I - UOZilt in a for the Ereffion of a Bridge over.the . Thames,.oppooite to Southaoap ton-street, iti the Strand.-7 Read a first time. .• • - SOLICITORL-GENZIIAL ( Sir S. ROMILLY) brought in a Bill to - render the Freehold Eitate.i of Tradors dying indebted Asiets for the Payment of Simplt3Cootrad Ps:bts.—Read a first time; ordered to printed, ant tube read a second tiind': oil Thurs d. y, 9th of April. _ _ BARRACKS. Mr. ROBSON sianiEediii;lrtention of submitting 0 to the House, after the reteks,. a Motion on the liar. rack Department. This Motion had only boeu de layed.fromU the circumstance Of the Third or Fourth Report on that suhjeCt hiving been for'two months, and still being, at the Printer's.—Mr. RoßsoN avail td himself of this opportunity to recommend, •for .tly.; prevention of a similar inconvenience,- that, ; 13 cases of importance, Duplicates of Papers should b e presented. - On the Motion of Mr..L. KEG K, in consideration .of peculiar circumstances alledg,ed, a month's firth er time was allowed for the .pry sentation of a Bill for inclosing 13,000 acres, in. Char Wood Forest. • Mr. Hoauousg brought up the Report of the Com mittee of Supply.. The Resolutions were agreed' to, ,and Bills .ordered to be brought in accordingly. The Sicilian Prize-Money Bill was read a third time, aud' after the introducli6n o f a Clause , by the Advocate-General, which occasioned a short conver sation between Admiral Markham, Mr. Baker, and the Advocate-General, was passed. • • The- Bill for Regulating the Office of Treasurer of t'ae.Navy was read a third. time, and,passcd. • • DUCI-1Y OF LANCASTER. On the Motion of Mr. HusktssoN, a new Wiit was ordered for the. Borough of Northampton,- in the room of the Right Hon. SPENCER Peitc‘tym,,, w h o; since his elettion, has accepted the (Alice of Chan cellor of his Majesty's Exchequer, and of telforbe the Duchy of Laticaster du-ring his Majesty's] pleasure' CAUSES OF THE LATE CHANGE IN ADM[. NISTRATIQN. Mr. HustussoN, in - consequence of the notice which he had last night given, moved, that the House, at its rising, should adjourn to Wednesday sennighL • On the question being put, koretliWV,lCK addressed the Speaker nearly in the following terms :—Sir,—As a Motion has been made by an Hon. Gentleman for the adjournment of the House, during that period which, at this season of the year, is usually allowed as a relief from the fatigues of business, I trust it will not be con- Skived improper or irrelevant in me to take the op portunity of giving to the Howe that explanatiops Which last night I intimated that it was my inteo - to communicate... It is of the utmost import ance to myself and to my 'colleagues, that the cii curnstances which led' to the recant changein his Majesty's ConticilS should be fully and fairly ex plained. It is undoubtedly of couidcrable import ance to the House and to the Public to 'receivelhat e4.i . Ntittion, that they may be enabled to O m a proper" estim.ite.of ilie charter arid disposition - of those persons to witoiu the it‘iministralion Of the Gountry had been, lately *!ntrUsted ; of the trans. actions Which led bathe dianti;aial of those persons ; and of the probable 'result of the changea e ;erhese l'consideratiohs render itnporaint also the decision of The present question, as to'the. propriety of a longer ' 'or shorter Adjournment 6f the House, from the ne ces'sity that may ocean- of bringing forward some measure which the late extraordinary events may 'theW to be eXpedient. For myself, Sir, every feel ing, every motive by which a man can be actuated, makes it of the highest importance to me,' that as soon as possible I nay have,the opportunity of con vincing the House that my behaviour in this affair has not been such as to induce them. to repent the kindness which I have ever had the goOd fortune to receive at their hands. Every moment's delay, While, durine that tnoment, a doubt may be entertained by ; e the House of the conalud of myself .and my col leagues, who have heretofore enjoyed so many in stances of- their distinguished confidence and sup pert; is indeed to me most painful'. But anxious, Sir, . as *I naturally am; to clear mySelf and those with whom I have had the honour to ad from the impu tations that have been cast upon us, I feel, in com mon with the Hon, Gentleman who soeapressed him self yesterday evening (Mr, Sturges Bourne), great regret at the necessity whiCh I am under of doing so - - in the absence of those who, as some seem ta think, oualit to be peseta to %vetch my statements and de . tea my inaccuracies: In saying this, I am far frem imputing to that Honoureble Gentleman the inten t tion - of throwing out : any unfair insinuations. I , know Neel!' the nieeral partiality which every •one _ entertains for self, and I know that partiality may bias a. neat, and induce him to'take a view, perhaps not strietiy correa-,:ola suoiea in which he is per t L f • a s sona totereste_l I ant, .t.iere_o4c,: llllX.lOO$ . the Honotirahle Gentleman aaiu be,. that thoSe per - scans should be present • - at the investigation ut the tranoaions I have alluded to, ann. I earnestly hope that this matter indv yet be disci:seed on some future day, when those lionoitrable Gentlemen- may 4ssist . the House in examining end sitting the details of it , in every part, from -the commencement to the conclusion. Sir, it is neither'in my nature, nor in my habits, to shrink front the examination of my life ; Lnit I ant reduced to this alternative, 'either to siasmlt to have the public mini prejudiced by reports •and tnisTe';ei . cmiltions, supported' by pirti.rl extracls from comieented ;vipers, or, in the aosenee of those who canft.it now tae present, to do that Nvllik_ll justice to znys, If, ,and 11 my colleagues, imperiously carts won me to du, 'by a fan , pen, and :hardy expwit tion of every part of the ia:e transactions,.. to atfeal the - onie inti tote against the mischievous effeets of those garbled statements and misrepresenta tions. Under such ctreunistances, Sir, it is impose sible; in theltnitilinent of my duty to myself, to my colleagues, to the House r and to the country, to autfer such a pariod to elapse before I make this explanation as must necessarily, iutervene ere the persons 10 e.h.otn I have alluded can resume- their seats In Parliament, • Their absence,. however, will have this eired : it will induce me to confine nape* as closely as possible to a dry statement of facts. -I shall carefully avoid every thing that ,may lead to a discussion, and dwell on those points alone which are necessary for the vindication of tnyself and my friends. I shall cautiously abstain from entering into any argument founded on t 4 fads which I shall relate, leaving, until After the holidays, When those Gentlemen will take their places on the opposite benches, the- further investigation of this business. Having premised thus much, Sir, I shall proceed, with as much clearness as I can, to make the statement that I have promised. It is . well known, sir, that - when the late Administration was formed, it contained in it many members whose opi nions and principlei, on what.is termed the Catholic. Question, had been recently manifested in that most authentic way in which the opinions and principles of public men can be manifested—by their speeches and votes in Parliament. They came into Adminia sn - ation, therefore, with a general kAowledge of those principles and opinions; for certainly ,no ex pedation could have been entertained that, those persons, whose charaders• were sufficiently known, would be willing, for the sake of any considera- I of enacAument, to abandon principles. which they had so lately and so wimpy espoused. No such requisition, Sir, was in fait made to them ; if it had, it would have been incumbent on them, in support of their honour, and I am sure that they would have. felt it strongly to. be their duty then, as now, to de a:line office. - While I assert that. the sentiments of the greater part of the 'Members of the-late Admini- , stration on this subject were w knowh on t a t e r., coming into.power, I do not pretend to deny that the ditliculties which existed in the way of any farther cOncession to the Catholics of England and Ireland were alSo well known. But .as they came into office unfettered, and free to Offer theft . advice on this important question, .ho also, I will answer•tin - every individual of them, they 'came into office with a sincere desire, %011ie they adhered to their Principles, to avoid every subject that might prove repugnant to those feeli ngs which they we re bound, by every motive at' duty, at atTeCtion; and of attachment, to respect.---This, Sir, was the state of the case; -their opinions on the Catholic Question were well known ; but they hoped, by a• conciliatory mode of. Government, to keep that question at rest. For a long time no difficulty occurred; at length, towards the; end of last )'ear, some circumstances took.place in the West of Ireland--the most valuable, and very much fear that I must add, the most vulnerable part of 'the Empire—which called upon his. Majesty's Ministers for attention, and which strongly excited the anxiety that such circumstances must naturally excite. Unwilling to use that force which, but two dayj'after the meeting of this Parliament, Wasstrong ly recommended by a person in this House, who was - too' impatient to wait for the operation of more' lenient Measures, his Majesty's Ministers hoped, and that hue was gratified, to reduce the spirit of dis tinhatice that had been manifested by a vigorous exertion 9f the power of the laws alone, without re sorting to any intemperate proceedings. This , oc currence, however, naturally led to the aonsid erat i on ofsome.measwe which might at once give satia• fedion to the people of Ireland, and strengthen the Means and policy of the Empire. Vari o us were the propositions that were agitated in the Cabinet, but the one which was deemed to be the most obviously advantageous, was that, Sir, which I bad the ho— nour to recommend to the adoption of this House. 4.t appeared to - us calculated to be highly beneficial to the Empire at large, by affording 114 means of • • •. • recruiting, to the greatest possibleeitent, the Army • ani Navy, fi - om whit so many persons are now eechuled by *hat *e ebnceive to be a' week and ill understood policy. It appeared to us calculated to. be highly beneficial to. Ireland, for the reasons which I have before stated in tt»s House, as tending to tranquillise thet Country, by holding out lo the gentry the prospeeit of rising 'in the Military and Na val Services, and thus ttacliing• them to this coun try, and also by affording a vent to the, perhaps, superabundant population of Ireland, and thus draw ing from the very sources of discontent' the Means ot • strength and union. These, Sir, were the motivell by which, we were aauated. It is 'surely not necese nary to repeat; and yet the base arts which are prac. tised yeah so much industry, may make it taaeted tta repeat, that - in this measure our object was pot to invade, bw secure, the establishments of tee Em. lire.lf Ireland were rendered insecure, the esta• blishiuents of Eegland would, tie exposed to greater danger than any which could puss buy result from such a boon to the .oetholics. If,' under such cit. cumstances, a successful Invasion Of Ireland by the Enemy were to take place, I call aeon those who, tellSe us of endangering the establishments of this Country, in God's name, to Consider 10 what 14. zard those eStablishments would 'then be subject. Si r , while . measure was under the consideration of his Majesty's.Mihisters, letters were received from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in which 'his Grate stated, that a disposition had arisen among the-Ca tholics to prosecute the. claims that they had so fates ly and so unsuccessfully urged- in the Imperial Par !lament, Sit, t was the known supporter of those claims, but I could not avoid considering the pro-e -elation of them at the Moment as most impolitic. ' As -far as my prig ate opinion Netit, I 'dirt strongly recommend the discontinuance of any saeh attetept. The eartial, measure then tinder' contemplation appeared ailtnirablyr suited to induce. that diseone tinuance;, and that discontinuance was elfeeted. Such, Sir, were nur inducements; the general in dueements of policy and principle. But we had also another iedecement ; we did hope • that this limited measure would not encounter the opposi tionta which we well knew -the general ques tion was evhsed. In reverting to the As of the 1 5 arliarnent of 1793, we tokunt trial a pledge had been given by the highest Servants of the Crown, hat a similar "measure ‘could be brought thrward in thi:, Country: This pledge was recoroed in the Se crelaq of State's Office, hy a dispatch froinLord Ho hahe in whiCh he distinctly staled the faa. Thus ' becoining . a question not of policy alone, but also of goOd taitb, weelid hope that • the limiLd measure might receive that assent and appronation of which, on the inure general question, we were aw.ire that there was no hope, and which general question we therefore. sedulously avoided. On these gseunds, the measure that I .had the honour of introducing into the House was submitted to ills Majesty. A detailed dispatch, which I wish it was in my power. • tolay otl the table, was written to the Lort Lieute. • nant of Ireland, ''st:iting - explicitly the motives for this measure, and . this detailed dispatch was sent to his Majesty accompanied by a Cabinet Minister.— Froth that first -preposition, his Majesty certainly ex pressed a strong dissent; on that dissent being made known to them, the Cabinet deliberated, and the • result was, a respe&ful representation to his Majesty of the grounds_otewhich they thought the measure 'expedient. To those representations was returned an answer, in which his Majesty, with considerable reluctance unquestionably, signified his assent—cer tainly with reluetance, but a positive assent. Under sanaioe of this assent, the dispatch was sent to the Lord Lieutenant. At a meeting of the Ca tholics in Ireland, Mr. ElliOt,. the Secretary of State, informed them 'of theseparate .treasure which it was intended to propose. . •Some discussion en sued ; and to a question from O'Connor, whe ther every rank in the army was to be open to, the , atholies, - or whether they were still to be precluded. From the Staff,' Mr. Elliot's answer was, that as the I,s- hr' s of the . dispatch. implied that - the•Cathelics Would be allowed to hold apy commission in the army, on taking an oath of allegiance, he conceived that the Staff was included. A dispatch, containing an account of this conference, was sent to his Ma jesty's GOvernment at home; and soon after a second" dispatch, in which it was stated that the sub- jea had been referSed . to the consideration .of a Ge neral Meeting •of Catholics, by whvni, notwith standing the doubts that had been incidentally thrown out, it was understood that every military situatiee was. to be rendered accessible to them.--- These, dispatches, Sir, 'containing these explicit statements, were sent to his Majesty at Windsor, and received his most gracious perusal ; but no Obje6tiOti whatever 'Was dila nutde! , by his Mar jesty to the Measure to which they related.—. However, subsequently to this period, there cer tainly did arise a 'doubt, whether use measure distinaly understood in its fullest extent. It is only fair to say, that"this doubt oriinatcd with some Ivlembers'of the Cabinet:- On Its being started, I, and others of those with wh o m I h a d t oe honour t o act, were most anxious that it should be completely removed befere the introduction of tee measure into : Parliament. Sir, I have always considered that a Minittes - in Parliament alts in a double capacity ; he eels as a Minister and hears as an individual Member of . Parliament: As an indi l vidual Member of Parliament, he may introduce or' support a measure, unconnected with (lei/eminent considerations. Such was the condustof Mr. Pitt, on the proposition of Reform, and for the Aoo bijou of the Slave Trade, the latter of• which has, . thank God ! been at last ended, and is a measure which, if there be nothing else tu distin guish the late Government during -the short period that it has existed, will shed on it • sufficient lustre. But, Sir, when a Member of Administration intro duces any measure as a measure of Government, it is most clearly his duty to be previously convinced that, lie has the concurrence Of t heCa)iiiet,and the sanCtion Of Royal authority. • I should, - indeed, have thought meself reprehensible in the; highest degree, mid ne se.ra':ing et all the foul reproach • iharhas been Sola vishly-jiestoWed upon . ine; had'' t -introduced the measure which I did introdnee,'ivitlAt haShig-ass certainecilhax it had the concurtence"4 the Cabinet, and the sanction of the King. I haVe before-stated, • that a deubtspeang up with '- regard to the : latter; it was th'erefo . te • deterinined that I . (Lord Spencer being.ahsent onaccouAO.if ill health) would write a dispateli to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland , in closing those clauses of . the Mutiny Bill in which