The Sun. — London, England, 1802-12-09 00:00:00

I ;I. 1 f ' .1 .C11 ; fa l 11;11rIBEIZ 3190. .I.II4PERML PARLIAMENT. .• HOUSE -OF PEERS, WEDNESDAY, DEC. S. Sp. ••it Orders were made relative to hearing Scotch Ap r Ts, and other routine business disposed of. the third reading of the Small. Notes Bill was postpo'ned. t h 4 R• EGER TON, attended by several Members, brought up e Chester Road Bill, which was read a first time. _ A fter waiting some t i me i n e xp e lation of farther commu nications from th e C ommons , t h e ir Lordships adjou rne d till lo•rnorrow. HOUSE OF COl►ll"ilC'S, WEDNESDAY, DEC. S. ,The SPEAKER stated, that he having been re turned to to serve in Parliament for two places, viz.. v l r oodstock and for Heytesbuty, A , he bad made ' 3 eleftiOn to Serve for Wooditock. bury new Writ was of course ordered Heytes te' PE /g.K S :,et thr Hon. joart BERESVORD, stating 4L , Om hni:tg'e had been returned to serve in Parliament for ennty of Waterford, and for the Borough of : I s killen, and that he had made his eledion to ser ve for the County.of Waterford. . A new Writ was ordered for Inniskillen. A new . Writ was ordered for the City of Ches. tp in the room of Liird ITELGR.AVE, called op to t he House of Peers. ;L l7 -7e SPE ~ I KER said, that he t3d received a e tter from the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, con taining a Petition complaining of an undue Eleaion. l Or Trinity College, Dublin.—Ordered to be taken ' n to.consideration on the 3/St of May. MA n e w Writ was ordered for . the Borough of uckl e y, i n N or th amptons hi re, i n the room o f SA EL HAYNES, Esq. who had accepted the office of Steward of the Chiltern Hondo:di.— Ordered. Mr. GOLDING said, that he had been elected , to 5€ tve in this present Parliament for the Boroughs ti Fowey and Ply mpton, and that he had made his "r4e6tion to serve for Fowey ; a new Writ was of course ordered for the Borough of Plympton. A new Writ - Was ordered for Marlow, in the room of T. Wi Lt. I Ams, Esq. deceased . . A new Writ was ordered for Portallington, in the room of H. PARNEL, Esq. who had accepted the office of Escheator of Munster. The Report of the Irish Militia Bill was brought tip and agreed to, and it was ordered to be read a third time to.morro..v, if then engrossed. The Report of the Commirtee.on Expiring Laws was tr oug h ; Op, and Bills were ordered to be biou gh t In pursuant to some of the Resplutions. ELECTION PETITIONS. rhe , C HANCELLOR of „the EXCHEQUER fr'+ 4 !‘ • •'' ti t ; *- tesoeaing the hearing i he rose to t.,,..efe, trot the House should not, hikei°re the Adjournment fo r t he Ch r i s t m a s R ecess , i"to consid era tion any of the Peti t ion s w hi c h ~,(1 beer, Presented, complaining of undue Electio n s, eturns, arc.--Ordered. 'T he C HANCELLOR. o f t h e E XCHEQUER gave 11 • °t - i ee, that he should, on Monday next, move tcZ m ." Pone, till after the 7th of February, the con 4eeration of such Petitions as were appointed for. acing previous to that period. r. ST. J OHN - presente d a P et i t i on f rom some etiors of Nottingham, statin&, that when they. Put t heir Names to t h e P e ti t ion, complaining of a n ~`l."(lue Eledion f or t h e 1:O wn o f N o ttingham, t h e y ' 11 1 ( 1 not kn ow a ll t h e allegat i ons i n the said Petition, 0 7did they now mean to support them. "1. hey, meant merely to have stated, that it was their in tion to have voted for Mr. Coke. .He moved, it should lie on the Table. Mr. fIiRCH rose, and was proceeding to corn- . le e llt upon what he considered to be exaggerated t entts of what took place at-that Election, when S P EAKER called him to order, and stated, that $h Question Questio n was mere l y, w h et h e r t h e P et i t i on nould lie on the Table. M r. BIRCH s a id, t he re % . vere some points which 1 1 ! wished t o. h ave exp l a i ne d , b ur if i t was i rregu l ar, w ould not tre s p ass upon t h e H ous e. Th e P et i t i on l 'lotdered to li e on t h e T a bl e. e it WM. PULTENEY pre sen ted a ,Petition from e • Th e 'ain perso ns , M a l tsters at Sh rews b ury; aga i nst imposing a Duty on seer. t T he Malt D ut y Bill, t h e PensiOri Bill, and the : C hequer Bill s Bill, were re ad a secon d t i me , an d ere ordered to b e comm i tte d to-morrow . d m l e SE CRETARY a t W AR move d t h e O r d er o f iy, for the Hou s e t o reso l ve i tse lf i nto a Corn rna t e .l e of Supply, and also th a t th e diff erent E st i. A r ie s , which had 'been presented respetling the &c. should be referred to the said Corn 4eee---Ordered. far H ouse then resolved itself i n t o a C omm itte e dtit he SECRETARY at WAR sa i d, it was now his tee to submi t to t h e cons i deration of the Commit 91e Military Establishment which His Majesty's to r e ro tho9ght it right, under all circumstances, t er r,°Pose fol. the ensuing year. But before he en ha.dcl.intoddetail of the different Estimates which s b an been presented, he would ( with the permis tio_,( the Committee, make some general observa _ abeivielinsyin the sobjeti. The Estimates which had upon the Table presented the details of t o th it arY Establishment, greater, both with respell e lnc rte number o f M en, and the Expence that would be ev er d than any which upon former occasions had peaceen maintained by this Country in a period of And the question upon which the Corn. . 11 fitte e . ther rulcould first have w decide would be, whe rviii;_afr umstances rendered such an increase in our Y Establishment necessary If that queS. " baould be c i • , decided in the affirmative, and upon THE such a decision the jtistification of Government could alone rest, it would, remain to be - determined, whether the plan and system of that Force was such as was consistent with public economy, and with the nature of the services which that Force was intended to perform. That. under the present circumstances in which this Cohntry and Europe was placed, a larger .MilitaTy Establishment than Was usual heretofore, was necessary for the protec tion of 'our Empire, he , supposed it would not,be necessary for him to undertake to prove. It was a proposition so obvious, that it could not be neces, sary for - him to waste the time of - the Committee in discussing it. The situation of Europe, and the relative situation of this Country with regard to its neighbours, were too obviously interesting, had.. been too generally explained, and , was too generally acknowledged, to slemand. any further description from,him. The overgrown power of France, which had now realized all the dreams of Louis the XIV. and his Ministers. the sneering. held .with respect to other Powers, and the ambiticus and entcrprizing spirit of its present Government, spoke too strongly, and came home too direaly to the feelings of every rational man, to render any observations from him necessary upon such a sub- • jea; and to say the truth, he should think it would be a vain task indeed in him, to attempt to awaken-- the attention and feelings of any man by words,. where attention, and where feelings were nor roitzed , by the events which were daily passing - before -his eyes. He conceived, that thesentiment of the Nation upon this important subject was clearly manifested ; , it is,. thao we should preserve the Peace. we had entered into as long , as it could he maintained con sistently with the honour of the Country, faithfully and ,pundually to pe'rform all the Stipulations of that 'Treaty of Peace, not by our .conduct to ,pro. yoke hostility, and to abstain from all .irritating language, but at the same time to be ready and prepared to resent every National ipsulte and every hostile aggression. This ' appeared to him - to. be the wise and'manly line of policy which we ought to adopt, and which ought to be pursued with that coolness, steadiness, and temper, which was the strong charaderistic of a valiant Nation. It was. necessary for this purpose, that we should. abstain from invedives and irritating language—that we should not enter into 'a war of .words, which were neither calculated to defend the weak, nor to oversct the strong, and which could Only excite hatred and jealousy, and engender mutual hostility,. which temper and steadiness might prevent. But at the same time, he thought, it essentially necessary that we ought to be in a state of preparation, and. that we ought to take careto'be• strong by land as' well as by sea—for after all that had passed, there was n 6 man, he believed, who would, venture, os el, ...s;eas. fsus et s whatever. ,state of perfeition it might be, would be alone capable of proteding at once every .part of our great extent of Coast, and all our numerous and distant possessions. It was not necessary to argue the subject at -length ; he would however allude only to one . circumstance, which was, that France was now in possession of the Netherlands, and was. all. powerful in Holland, that she was mistress of the courses of the Lower Rhine, of the Maese and of the Scheldt, and a l so . o f a l most all the Fortresses t hat were scattered on their, Banks. And it should be - recolleCted that this was the first time that .the Parliament of this Country had vier been called upon to settle a Peace Establishment under such cir cumstance's. He was, he confessed, therefore greatly' . amazed at what f e ll f rom an Hon. Gentleman' oppo. site to him (Mr. Fox), fur whose talents he had the greatest resped. That Hon. Geotleanan had stated in a former Debate, that he S;i:V nothing in the pre sent state of affairs, nothing - in - the 'present state of Europe and of this Country whiCh' could all fora latger Peace Establishment than that which was voted at the conclusion of the last Pea Ce. lie beg ged leave to re-call to the recollection of the Com. mittee, that during the last Peace, Holland was • not only not in the power - of France, but that she. was, at least during a great Part of that Peace, strongly connected with this Country. —, The Netherlands then remained in the possession. of the House of • Austria, and the whole course of the Rhine was . lined with friendly -and German Powers. Surely such a change in the situation.of Europe, must necessarily jusrify - some change in our system. There was another circumstance to which he wished to•advert, and which he thought was en , titled to great consideration,, and that was, the Military Force which France would keep on foot st§ . her Peace Establishment He'begged . not to be tin. derstood, as wishing to contend, that we ought to keep up a Military Force equal to France; but he , thought it was a subjea worthy of consideration. At the commencement of the present year, the Mi litary Force of France consisted of 84 Regiments•of Cavalry, which amounted to 46,3 io Men—of ito Demi-brigades of Infantry, and 130 Demi-brigades of Light Infantry, making together 341,000 Men, exclusive of 14,000 Veterans employed for Garrison Service. Their Artillery of every description, con sisted of about 26,000. All these different descrip . tions of Forces, would make together a Military • Establishment 01427,900 men; and in stating it at . this number, he was sure he sUas, considerably be low the mark. In addition to-this, there was the National Gendarmerie, consisting of about soo,ooo men, Making altogether about 930,000 men. He did not mean to represent the Gendarmerie as corn ing within the description of Regular Troops; but when he was speaking of the Military power of France, they ought not :10 , beleft out orconsidera tion. Such was the present state of Military pre paration in France ; and such being her position, no rational man could doubt Upon the propriety of .our having a larger Military Establishment for our se.. . U*4 curity than. was necessary at former periods. He wished to take this Opportunity of expressing, his concurrence in the sentiments which a Noble Friend of his had expressed upon the'subjed Of the sMall ness of our former Peace Establishments. He had long and deeply considered this subjea, and ,lie was convinced, that although no serious-misfortnne or Ca lamity had happened to this Country from.th a t circum stance,. yet that there had been periods in the history of this Country, when the interests,' when even the safety of the Country -would have been endan gered, if the energy and talents of our enemies had been equal to:the hatred which they entertained for us, and to the:perfidiousness of the intentions which they were afterwards known to have entertained:— No Country could look- for the continuance of Peace • without feeling a proper sense. of National Secdrity. No nation had a right to-calculate upon , the dura tion of any Peace, unless it was possessed of such :aos of defence as would7rnalee it inexpedient ande. Jaa e orentaa• in- any Foreign, "ewer -to imtalt ita lane nour. Without the meaos . :of National Defence, io Stipulations of any. Treaty, - however advanta geous, could &e calculated. upon as permanent ; with those Means of Defence there was a great, probabi. lity of maintaining any Treaty. , It was therefore the duty of every Government, in his opinion, to ptoaride such means of defence, because without them all the accumulations of commerce and wealth would only lead to accumulations of anxiety, dis grace, and' misfortune. He wished, before he- en tered into. a Statement of the Estimates, to say a word or two upon twoObjeftions that had frequent.: .Iy.been made to a -large. Military Peace Establish . ment : the one of these ohjeftions was of a Con. .stitntional, and the other .:of an. Economical na ture. With regard to the _Constitutional Oh. jeftion, he begjed to observe, that •he should bee sorry -if the . time '-was ever to occur in -that House,: when a due-Spirit of Constitutional jealousy was not manifested upon -the SUbjed of Standing Armies. The .objection that had con , remedy been. made, was, that the maintenance• of a ;arge Standing Army in - tune of Peace, was incon sistent with the Spirit of the Constitution. He was not.only ready to admit that .proposition, but was ready to contend that the maintenance of any Stand.. ing Army, • whether large or small, without the -consent. of Parliament, was illegal and unconstitu. tional. But, on the other hand, he must contend, that since the Revolution, a Standing Army, pro.; portioned to the State of Affairs, " might- be legally maintained, with the consent. of Parliament. It had been said that goad Laws must be maintained by.,good Arms, ~and .good Arms could only be cre- ! ated. by - gOod Organization and Discipline. It. wot Id be useless. for him to take-up the tune of the Coertnittee, in. maintaining so obvious a proposition, • .f4;l,' 3 • 'MI e t ertaer v•e Its Laws pt Constitution, unless it :possessed. such a Force as liras sufficient to proleft the Public .Safety. He could not conceive how • the quantum of -the Force could e make any- difference in 'this Stage of- the business.- The' ground upon which- this, Force was proposed, was, that it was. necessary for if it nut necessary, a-Standing Army ought . not to be 'maintained at all.. Rut there appeared to him no more danger, -in a :constitutional point of view, in the difference between 35 or 40,000 men in time of PeaCe, than _ there was in the difference between 40,000 men in time of Peace, and 100,000 men in time of :ware the only question was n whe - - titer such a Force• s,vas a necessary, ? The - other ob. jetttion to Standing ArmieS, was, that pow,erful ArMies ,and Navies could not ensure our security,- hisa•that it was to be sought for in -economy. >He was perfectly ready to admit that the Public Credit might to be maintained• by every possible. means, anO, that ecooorny • ought always to be prafliaed. PUblic Credit was to be maintained by punfluality and good faith in all our transattions, and the. Public Wealth ought undoubtedly to be augmented by all proper means. But still the question re verted to the necessity of the : case; if Ministers could show that , t 00,000... men were absolutely necessary for the Public Security, it would nor be contended : that it; would .be tvise to. main, tam a smaller Force. It had frequently been as serted, that money' was the sinew ,of War ; this was e true, but it was not to be taken, entirely in the abstrafl. Money trust have some body to which it could-be applied, and upon, which it could operate, and that body ought so be .a powerful Navy, and a strong and well disciplined Army, capable, of being ptiteiiatO action at ,the shortest warning. In cone j atiddi - iing of : the propriety of augmenting our Force, it should. be recolleCied that : We were now in pose session of Trinidad and CeylOrn-and it of course re_ quired a considerable addition of • Force to garrison those Possessions. Having made these preliminary. observations, he would now .proeeed, to enter into the details of the Estimates whichhad been laid upon the Table respeflitig the : Army, which he begged leave to observe, was perfealy welkirganized and disciplined, 'and , • was capahle.of great augmentation, if necessary, without any deviation from the system which had been adopted, or withhut any. injury to its discipline. The Force which it was proposed to. maintain for ,the ensuing year was, three gegi merits of Horse Guards, and- twenty-seven Regi ments of Dragoon : Guards and Dragoons.. The division •of -the Regiments of Cavalry was to be as follows, viz. into . eight .Troops, and each Troop to consist of 6o rank and, file., Qf these so .men per Troop were to- be dismoUnted, it not having been thought necessary that they should all be on horseback ; and, by adopting this plan, a saving of near 50,0001. a year would be made to the Public. The total number of Cavalry would be 17,250 men. The Foot Guards would remain, viz. three,Regi 'penis, with their different Sattaliona, amounting IQ 4060 men. . There would then he to Biittaliom r" r"'"' • 6 ....., A I , •••1 . _h o ', . 7; . ..„ . 2 .: Ca •••' 1. ,...i ~..; t .. .. 1 ;_ • „.... , ~... - ..ill -,, 4,„, ~,-,,@ "d ( ..,•.)."-‘,/,-- ? .1: 24 ' ..._ , ,'."-',' . ' l\ '' .4 , ' i . "',' 7 *4,‘ 4; ffr i 211 • , si' \ '*! fr , %.:..) ', ...F•./ I ;leTi - ..V.,7-7 , _ / '''''''' : ).: ( -1 (1 1 - 4 4 .17 • [PRiCE §IXPET4CE. of Infaery j which watld comprise the numbered Regiments of the Liabp toh93. There would also be the two Battalions of the Royals, and the z 4 Battalion of 52d, a very fine Corps, and in the highest state of discipline. and perfthion.—Also the five. Battalions of the 6oth Regiment, and the Rifle Corps; The Establishment of these Forces, it was proposed, should-be seventy-five rank and file per Company, :with the exception of :the Tweas destined fur India, which' it was proposed should have zoo men per Company, because the facility of recruiting them was not so great as it was Fit home. There were then the eight West India Regiments, which were eight Companies each, and which would consist of 4158 men ; there were originally twelve West India Regiments, but they had been reduced to eight. They were found, very useful in theWe,t Indies, particularly when employed with British Troops—The foreign Corps, which i; was pro_ posed to retain, were Staart's Regiment, which had, upcxs eveteeemeciej s no, s' e ;,itage;staed itaelf„and the Swiss Regiments of Meuron and Wauevilte ; and .these together would amount to 2532. - There was besides, the Staff Corps, the Waggon "Pain, and the New South Wales Corps, making in the whole, including the Regiments in India, 128,907 men, exlusive of Officers. The next point lie had to state to the ComMittee was, the general disrribu. tion of . those Forces. It would not, 'of coorse,, be expelled that he should'' enter particularly into this part of the subjeti. It would be sufficient to state that 60,000 men would be employed - -lOr the Service of Great gritain and Ireland, 30,000 for the Plantaiions, and the rest for India: -- There was: some diffeeence between'the statement' he was now making, arid the Abstraifl -which had been laid Upon the Table with respeet to the Force to be-employed in India.; the, 'Force adestined for that Scr.v ice was three Regiments of Cavalry, and foUrteen Regiments of Infantry. The ‘expence of this. Force would amount to 4,0 us,oool. In,aodition to the Regiments of the Line it was intended to form seven new -Garrison Battalions„ to be compos ed of the Oat-Pensioners of Chelsea, and they were 'intended to supersede the Invalids. a It was thought .better to form. Corps of this kind than to retain. the Invalids, fur _though ,the Invalids had, been. of late a much more serviceable. Corps than t fbrineely, snit a was thought better to alter the plan, and 10. get aid of the name of Invalids altogether,- the re was soniethieg in the very tame, Which implied ;hat they std ut need of the assistance of crutches, lostead of being able to handle muskets. The difference of.expenee that would be incurred Jay the formatibn of the ..IT'ar rison Battalions, -instead of the Invalids, .would-be very trifling—not above 50001.. a -year ; but the' difference between the expellee of the Garrison "Bat talioni-and the Troops of the Line, .wan;,; IN yen,' material inileea.. - Ire wished also to ada, that the Cloathing of these seven Battalions'wouldbe made onteof the Government Stores, without - e arly ; addil tional expellee to the Country for the ensuing year. .These Corps would be able to perform the service of the Coast, so that the : Regimeots of the Line might form a moveable. column, capable of acting where Occaaion ; might require. By this plan the Army, would not only he, put upon a more formid.: able footing, but it would be done with more eco nomy than heretofore. From the manner in which the Army Would be composed, both with regard to Cavalry and Infantry, it would be capable of great augmentation, without -having recourse to that plan which had formerly been adopted, and which tended. to check the exertions and break the spirit of old Officers,.. viz, that of raising men. for rank. By the present plan, if any augmenta tion of the Army was,neeessary, one Lieutenant and twenty-five Men per Company in the Infantry, would complete, the Regiments to the War .Esta blishment, and iu the same proportion in the Cavalry; and if it became necessary to, increase the Army still further, the increase would be obtained with no other increase of Officers, : but that of Captains, - Lieutenants, skc. He did not think it necessary -at present to go more at length into -this part of. the subjeft, but would reserve -hinseli,„ with the per mission of the Committee, to arswer any. objections .that might be - made to this plan. The whole of the expence that would be incurred for the Artily . for the ensuing year would bee as appeared by the Estimate, 5,270;0001. The only. Army Services of which Estimates had not, been laid upon the Ta ble were very trifling, and such as e from the cir cumstances of the case, could not beat present re duced to an Estimate. There was, however ' in addition, the expellee of the IVlilitary'college, and the Royal'Military Asylum; but he thought he might - venture to state„ that , the wholeseex pence Would fall ; within Five Millions :.and a Half, This was lesa than the expence of 'this year by 2,070,0301. and . less than the expence of the last year of the War, by 10,130,0001. And the difference of expellee -in the Barrack Establishment since last year, would lie 300,0001. He now begged . -leave to take. notice. of . a - charge which had been .brought forward frequently and positively against His Majesty's Ministers,, of having reduced the Public Force at a time when .such redutlion was not compatible with the public safety. pie whole Force of this Country in Ododer 1801, at the time of the signing of the Preliminaries of .Peace.was about ,e 50,000 men ; of that number 133,3+3 had beep reduced in October - last. Of the Cavairy, 10,498 had been reduced. The Militia, which no_ ! body would maintain ought ,to he kept in time of . Peace, were reduced ;. they amounted to 7i,374, ,nien., The Fencibles e who could not be kept after the War, because they were engaged to serve no longer, amounted to ,20,679 men. The Invalids, t 0 .5122. men. With regard to the Foreign Corps, he supposed it would not be contended that they ought. to be retained when British Troops were dis, I THURSDAY, DECEMBER 9, 1802.