The Sun. — London, England, 1859-08-02 00:00:00

the future of India. (Hear, hear.) Previous to 1&57, each year had been one of annexation, and although each annexed state brought an increase of revenue, the charge always ex ceeded the increase. Since 1857 there was no annexation, and this year there is an increase in the revenue of about four millions. (Hear, hear.) Some of my friends near me will be glad to hear how the export of cotton from India has increased. Up to 1853 the annu.al average was 116,000,0001b5., but for the last five years it was 175,000,0001b5., being an increase of 50 per cent., the amount sent last year exceed the exports of the whole of the four previous years. ear, hear.) If that be the case, Ido not think we need. E spair ' of India, over many parts of which th e l a t e cala mity passed lightly, while a large portion was left entirely untouched. The difficulties of the country are only tem porary, difficulties, caused by events which no one could control, and when they have passed away I do not see why India should not resume the course of prosperity which was only interrupted by the late calamity. The motion which I have, sir, to put in your hands, is to ask for power to enable me to raise in this country a sum for the service of the Government of India of not less than five millions, in ad dition to the portion of the late loan which still remains un issued. That will enable us to meet all demands for the present year ; and with respect to the future, we must wait until the time comes. I have already stated my fear that one or two years have vet to be passed before we get re venue to exceed expenditure ; but after that I expect that the finances of India will be placed in a more satisfactory position. I don't want all this money at once - we shall not draw it all until April next ; but I feel th at I should be acting unwisely did I not take power sufficient to carry me over the whole year. The right hon. baronet concluded by handing his resolution to the chairman. Mr. CRAWFORD having recapitulated the figures of ,1 Sir C. Wood, proceeded to say that he agreed with the right hon. baronet as to the propriety of reducing military expen diture, but what he bad risen for was to call the attention of the house to a very important omission in the right hon. baronet's speech. The right hon. baronet had forgotten to tell the house that there were at the present moment seven millions of India bonds out, payable at one year's notice, and not less than 15 millions of debentares payable in. 1863 and 1864. So that in the whole there were above 20 millions of debt which Government might be called on to provide for within the next five years. The right hon. baronet had not told the house in what way he intended to raise this five millions. Should it be by debentures, he (Mr. Crawford) could say from his own experience and from the testimony of many whom he had consulted, that the pl 6 would fail. Debentures were overdone, the last not having been taken up by the great companies and other ordinary purchasers of such stock, but by the Stock Exchange. The Stock Xxchange had been bitten on that occasion, and therefore were not at all likely to come forward again. The increase in the customs duties had been the subject of much com ment in India. The increase might be perfectly legiti mate, but the manner in which it had been levied, especially in Bombay, had caused great discontent. In that port it was customary for merchants to sell goods "to arrive," binding themselves to deliver them at a certain price, and in consequence of the extreme rapidity with which the in creased duty was levied, he knew one gentleman who lost £6,000 in order to keep his contract. Then there was the export duty, which was only economically sound in certain cases. It might do to levy many export duties, when you had a monopoly of any article, as Peru with guano, Sicily with sulphur, and India might be said to have almost a monopoly of indigo, but in India export duties had recently been levied on many articles which had to enter into com petition with the produce of other countries. The export of hemp and rape cake had only sprung into existence since the Russian war, and it would hardly be credited that in so short a time it had reached such a large amount. He doubted very much the expediency of taxing these articles. An export duty would eventually operate as a tax upon land by adding to the charges of sending the produce of the land to the foreign market, and as the land in India was the chief source of revenue, it followed that an export drity was one of the worst expedients that could be resorted to for the purpose of adding permanently to the resources of the state. The right hon. gentleman had referred to the railways, and appeared to be looking forward to the time when the railways would no longer be a burden to the state. It might be sat isfactory to the house to know that in the case of one of the most important of the India railways ' with which he (Mr. Crawford) was conn ec t e d, an d which was now in course of construction, they were taking upon the 143 miles already opened from Calcutta to the coal districts, and to the north west, £34 Der mile per week ; and as the traffic was carried at about 46 per cent. working expenses, it followed that the net earnings were from £lB to £l9 a m ile per week. The cost of this line was not more than £12,000 a mile, so that the net annual return was considerably more than the guaranteed interest, and, in point of fact, the railway had repaid to the Government already about £2,50,000 against the advances made on account of the guaranteed interest. In the case of the Great Indian Peninsula line, on the other side of India, they were taking £lB a mile, the cost of carrying on the traffic being about the same. It would be seen by going into the figures, that that also was earning sufficient to repay the guarantee. The line also from Allahabad to Cawnpore, which was 126 miles long, was opened last March, and upon that the earnings were in the gross about £lB or £l9 a mile. Therefore, it might be taken almost as a certainty that as those railways were opened up, the amount of revenue re ceived from them would greatly exceed the guaranteed in terest, and that the railways would not form any permanent charge upon the Government. It was true that the Govern ment of this country had found it necessary to pay large sums of money to the proprietors of those railways during the progress of construction, but that money had been paid not out of the funds of India, but out of the funds of the shareholders themselves. The power having been given to pay up the calls to a great extent, they had done so. They had paid the money in advance to the Indian government in this country, and those payments had largely exceeded the amount returned in the shape of the guaranteed inte rest ; so that thus far the guarantee had not operated as a tax upon the Indian finances. In a paper issued last week, giving a statement of the public debt in India, he found in cluded amongst the creditors of India his Majesty the King of Oude, for a sum in the whole amounting to £1,770,000, in three several sums bearing interest at the rate of 6,5, a*d 4 per cent. respectively. He wished to know whether these sums represented a debt due by India to the state of Oude, and if so, whether the right hon. gentleman (Sir C. Wood) woul I have any objection to state what course the Government intended to take in respect to it—whether it was intended to "write the money" off, as it was termed in commercial phrase , or still to regard it as a debt ? It wa s with great satisfaction that he heard the announcement that It was intended to send out some gentleman of lair financial experience to take charge of the financial administration of India, a course which he had himself suggested last session, and from which he anticipated great advantage. He thought the timehad arrived when some improvement in the banking affairs of India might be introduced. By banking on a large scale, as in this country, he believed that a great improve ment might be effected in the mode of carrying on the public service. Lord STANLEY—Sir, I agree in part of what has fallen from the right hon. gentleman, and though I might differ from some of his opinions, still I should feel that as he must be bound to some extent by the course of those who preceded him in office under circumstances of a very un usual description, he is entitled not merely to forbearance from opposition, but to the cordial aid of this house; and that aid, I may venture to answer for those who sit on this side, will be freely and frankly given. (Hear, hear.) It is hardly possible to conceive a situation of greater diffi culty or responsibility than that which is occupied by who ever is at the present time Minister for India. The India of 1859 is totally different from the India of three or four years ago. No doubt internal peace has been restored ; but there is, I am afraid, an amount of animosity and ill feeling in India which will take a considerable time to re move. The military reputation of England has been re trieved; but it will be impossible for the natives of India to forget that our power was during many months seriously shaken, and that it was so shaken although a considerable proportion of those who had the greatest power and in fluence in the country not only held aloof from the move ment of the native army, but cordially supported us. The financial difficulty has been clearly stated by the right hon. baronet, and, so far from there being any tendency in this country to underrate its magnitude, we are now, whatever may have been the base 12 months ago, rather in danger of running into the opposite extreme, and of considering it as more permanently formidable than it really is. (Hear, hear.) All the sources of difficulty which I have men tioned are in a great degree temporary in their character, but while they last they aro undoubtedly the most serious obstacles that a Minister can have to encounter. (Hear, hear.) The question of Indian finance may be either a very wide or a very narrow one, according to the manner in which it is considered. There is no subject connected with the government of the country that • does not somewhere or another touch upon the question of finance, and therefore if we were to go into all the topics that might be dealt with in considering the pro- Posed loan I scarcely know within what limits it would be Possible to confine the debate of this evening. I cannot, however, avoid mentioning one or two matters which are not strictly financial ; but at the same time I shall endeavour as closely as I can to keep to the subject actually before us. In the present state of things it is clear that a deficit like that which exists at the present moment can be diminished only by one of three modes. Either taxation must be in creased or some measures must be taken to obtain relief be yond the limits of India, or else there must be a reduction either in the civil or military expenditure. The right hon. baronet has not held out much hope of an augmented re venue from an increase of taxation beyond that already sanctioned, or now under considerati on , an d I am g l a d h e has not done so. The measures actually taken by the Go vernment at Calcutta for increasing the taxation of India were d e t erm i ned upon independenof, though coincident with those sanctioned by the Government at home. I be lieve, indeed, that the two schemes crossed each other on the road. The Government at Calcutta proposed a larger amount of increase than that which was recommended from this country. I am far from saying they were wrong in doing so ; in fact, on the part of the Government at home, I at once acquiesced in the course they took ; but I mention the circumstance to show that the view of the Government in this country was not favourabl e to a larger increase of taxation than that actually adopted.' A considerably larger sum will be realised from the schem e of the authorities in India than that which would have been received if the re commendations of the Government at home had been carried into effect, but, when those sources of revenue have been can, at abl obtained People. Certainl y, C th e a r t ta m in o l r y e exhausted, I am not very sanguine other modes _ events, a m at majority of the schemes of new taxation which have been put forth both here and in India have been more calcu lated to be danger ous than productive. The proposed toba cco tax, for example, uld be a tax upon the poorest class of _ the people, depriving them of one of the few luxuries which they enjoy, and from its _ n ature it would be singularlyliable to evasion, unless the co llection were d enf h o e rc o ed h jeo by ti m on e a a h n l s o o in f a Government monopoly, which every respect. The plan of a s uccession- he tax t s ha ee t m in s at ln fir di s a t sight more feasible, but we must re such a tax would assume a very different a c h ara c tere that which it bears in this country P s p eak with some from hesitation and doubt, but I do not believe that of yoauwo uld fi nd it easy to i m p ose an ything in the nature of • bv. T : succes sion-duty upon p ro p er ty o ther than land ed property attempt to ascertain the amount of capital posses se d _ native merchant or banker would only be to incur aisap e pointment and fail ure ; your t ax wou ld be evaded with the greatest possible facility, an d a l ax an d un productive col lection would be attended withevils such as would not long be tolerated even among the patient people of India. Even with respect to landed property, it should be remembered that in India, where the Government is the owner of large portions of the land, and where the cultivators of the soil stand in the relation of tenants, the Government is already receiving in one shape or another as much as the land can yield without making its cultivation unprofitable' Any otexapt, therefore, to tax a roan who su c ce e ded to the occupation of landS which - he held subject to large payments to the Government would simply be taking out of one pocket what you are putting into another. So with respect to the proposal to impose licences upon certain trades. That is a proposition not free from objection in principle, and if an attempt were made to put it in force, its effects would require to be very closely and carefully watched. Upon the whole, looking to the present amount of your taxation in India; and the considerable increase now being made in the various branches of revenue, I do not think we can expect much more from that source. (Hear.) Then comes the question which we have mainly, to consider this evening—whether it is necessary or pos sible to afford any relief to the finances of India from any quarter beyond India itself. Some discussion took place at the beginning of last session as to the possibility of an Im perial guarantee. The arguments for and against a retro spective guarantee—that is to say, a guarantee upon debt already contracted—are capable of being summed up in few words. It is argued in favour of such a measure, that in the event of the Indian Empire being lost, the pressure which its creditor, would bring to bear upon the Imperial Government would be such as no Government could resist ; that if the Indian Government were able to borrow at an English rate of interest upwards of £1,000,000 per annum would be saved ; and, finally, that a guarantee would not entail upon the Imperial Government any actual outlay, nor would the amount, large as it might be, be sufficient materially to lower the credit of England in the market. (Hear.) It is contended, on the other hand, that the con tingent obligation to which you would render yourselves • in a certain event liable would be greater than any Go vernment ought to take upon itself without absolute ne cessity ; that it would be wrong to remove from the Indian Government that liability tofinancial difficulty and distress which is one of the best securities against rashness and improvidence; and that, to this argument I attach more weight than to the two others—you cannot afford the benefit of a guarantee without creating a feeling of apprehension on the part of the holders of your existing debt. It is well known that the reduction of in terest a few years ago, however reasonable and proper, created among the natives a greater feeling of uncertainty and unwillingness to trust the Government than any other step which we have taken; and I am afraid that an Imperial guarantee, naturally followed by a reduction of interest, would produce the same discontent, only upon a larger Wale. I sm not surprised that the right hon gentleman does not ask Parliament to take upon itself retrospectively the whole or any part of the Indian debt ; but I confess I do entertain some doubt whether, looking only to the cir cumstances of the moment, and to the loan which it is now proposed to raise, the same determination that India shall rely wholly upon Indian resources is applicable to its pre sent condition. (Hear.) I think it may be fairly argued whether, under present circumstance, India is not entitled to look in some way or other to the Government of this country. (Hear.) I have heard it stated in this house, and upon high authority, that financially we have gained no thing by the possession of India ; that all we have got by it is the power of trading there, which we would equally pos sess if it were an independent country. Bnt in examining the financial relations of the two countries, it is impossible to overlook the fact that for half a century past an immense number of Englishmen have been employed and supported out of the revenues of India; that those who go there are for the most part persons without fortune ; and that they return, if not all with great wealth, still with a compe tence derived from Indian resources. (Hear.) I believe the amount of contritution, not to public, but to private necessities, from the people of India to the people of Eng land cannot be taken at less than from £5,000,000 to £6,800,000 sterling. (Hear.) Now, that is a sum which, in striking a balance between England and India, we cannot fairly leave out of sight. (Hear.) But I do not think you can argue this as altogether a question of right or policy. I am afraid—and this is one of the veryfewpoints upon which I differ from the statement of the right hon. gentleman— that something in the nature of imperial assistance will be come before long a matter of absolute necessity. I confess I am inclined to doubt—and An this point I am supported by the authority of an hon. gentleman who is far more inti mately acquainted:with this matter than I can pretend to be —whether it will be possible to throw so large an amount of debentures upon the market (if that be the course adopted) without considerably decreasing their value, and I believe it is well known that if the value of the security falls below a certain point, you not only have to give higher terms, but it will not be saleable upon any terms. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, I think it ought to be considered whether the opera tion which the right hon. gentleman proposes will not se riously affect the progress of those raiblic works upon which he justly lays so great a stress. We must remember that it is not only the Government of India which wants money, but I think I understood him to say that something like £6,000,000 would be required by the various public compa nies connected with India. They will go into the market equally upon the credit of the Indian Government, so that in point of fact there will be required not £5,000,000, but £11,000,000 which the Government and the companies will be borrowing together. (Hear, hear.) I think, therefore, the question may arise—not merely as a matter of policy or of right, but as a matter of sheer necessity consequent on failure of credit—whether the assistance of the Imperial Government should not be given, not retrospectively, but to satisfy present exigencies, and to cesse when those exi gencies cease. If, however no proposition of that kind is en tertained by the house, then, I think, another question arises, which may be taken in either of two ways as between the finances of India and England. Parliament will have to consider on what ground it can justify, at a time of diffi culty like the present, the distinction which has always ex isted, and for which I have never known a reason assigned, between the military expenditure of the colonies and of India. It would be madness to contend that the same rule should be applied to the two cases. That would be wholly out of the question ; but I thins that both the Indian and the colonial system of military expenditure might mutually borrow something with advantage. Take, for instance, the case of a large colony like the Cape, where the finances are flourishing, and the population prosperons, but where arl enormous military expenditure is borne by this country. I have never been able to understand why the British Government does not reduce its military expenditure on account of such colonies as these, giving to their Government the option of defraying part of the charges of the Imperial troops stationed there, or of establishing a local militia. (Hear.) Of course I know that you are bound by many old engagements, and that if any change is made it must be a gradual one. But the fact remains, that in the case of the colonies we take too much of the military expenditure upon ourselves, while in the case of India we go into what I think is the opposite ex treme, by absolutely refusing to hold ourselves liable for any portion of the military expenditure there. (Hear.) Now, I think that, not relying on one single instance, but taking the whole course of our colonial government in this respect, and comparing the two systems, it would not be difficult to prove that, unless the force in the colonies is altogether disproportionate to their wants, India has in point of justice some claim to assistance in bearing its military charges. (Hear.) If this view be not adopted, there is another which deserves consideration. I think it will be found if we look into the history of the military charges imposed upon India, and of the wars carried on by the In dian Government, that some of these have been distinctly undertaken from English and Imperial as distinguished from local policy. (Hear.) Take, for instance, the Affghan war. (Hear.) If can be proved that England, considered apart from her connection with India, had an interest in that war. It was an English war, carried on from motives of European policy, and yet I believe every shilling of the expenditure has been defrayed by the Indian exchequer. (Hear.) Now, I mention these circumstances because if the Indian Government is driven, as I believe it will be by necessity, to appeal to this country for financial aid, either in the form of a g uarantee for a new loan or in any other way, I think it will be wise and just to remember then that that appeal is not altdgether a groundless one, that it is not an appeal ad miser wordiam, arising merely from the necessities of the Indian exchequer, but that it really has some foundation in reason and in justice. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, let us next consider what it may be possible to accomplish in the reduction of Indian expendi ture. We have been told of a deficit of £10,000,000, the expenditure in round numbers being £46,000,000, and the income only £36,000,000. With regard, first, to the cost of the civil service, I pass over the expenses of the home Government, for they are comparatively insignificant. The question was argued at great length, and was very re cently settled by Parliament, and I do not apprehend that, for the sake of any slight saving of the salary of one or two members of the Council, it would be worth while for Go vernment or for Parliament to interfere with that settle ment. The principal value of the Home Council of India will, I think, be found to consist in the assistance which it will afford to the Indian Minister of the day in resisting claims and charges which there is always a tendency to throw unduly upon the Indian exchequer. (Hear, hear.) I am not speaking now of any particular time or Government; the controversy to which I refer has gone on ever since the Board of Control was established ; but where there is a large amount of discretionary military expenditure with regard to which, at various times, questions may arise as to whether it should fall upon India or upon England—where there is a Chancellor of the Exchequer and a Government naturally bent on reducing English expenditure as far as they can in the Parliamentary estimates—thereswill always be an incli nation, an involuntary, an inevitable inclination, to throw upon India, especially in military matters, financial charges which belong properly to England. (Hear, hear.) A body of men like the members of the Indian Council who are independent of the Government and of the Treasury will therefore be highly useful in resisting this pressure. (Hear.) With respect to the larger question of the civil administra tibn in India. itself, I can only say that in dealing with it there are in my opinion two distinct and separate points to be considered. The first is what course we ought to take with:respect to that subject at the present ; the second, what it may be in our power ultimately to carry into effect. Looking merely to the exigencies of this, or to those of the next two or three years, I concur with the right hon. gen tleman opposite in thinking that nothing worth speaking of can be done in the way of reduction in that direction. I say so because it is quite clear that, except in cases of extraordi nary emergency, you could hardly redace existing salaries by any large amount, and it may be a question, if you did so, whether the saving thus effected would compensate the country for the discontent which such a proceeding would unquestionably create. With respect to the future, I can only say that I do not concur with what fell from the right hon. gentleman—and it was almost the only sentence to which he gave expression which I heard with regret—as to the expediency of increasing the amount of Europeans em ployed in the civil service in India. The state of feeling which exists at the present moment—a state of feeling which is, perhaps, not the unnatural result of the distrust and jealousy which such a struggle as that which they have just gone through tends to engender between two distinct races —may be favourable to such a change. That feeling, how ever, will not, I feel assured, be permanent in India, and I, for one, see no good reason for altering the opinion which met with such general concurrence in 1853, and which was favourable to our introducing ultimately larger and larger numbers of the natives—especially educated natives—of India into the civil service (Hear, hear.) 1 do not, indeed suppose that any one would propose to do away with the covenanted service. It may or it may not become, in, the present withou time mt taking n g worki n g such h w a ell, ce and course of time, faulty as an institution ; but it is at the ,dimspeeannsse may be be it. ground of objection toyouhocannwevoetr adopted to remove that h' urse, w the le which service—namely, ry n ce lndia n forms amey the it entire ly s princ ipal risk of favouritism and exclusive character. a departure from the j obbing (Hear, hear.) I am aware of the which may be incurred by I also know that n othingstness of the existing rule ; but India, whether its memberes uncovenanted service of courage those who form th e operates so much to dis be as the knowledge th a t th ere is a limi t in pea th n e native as official rank beyond which they must nor hope to pass. (Hear.) And when I had th e honour believe the object eaueseemfelrisol being i n o ff i ce I he only by means w in h te ie n h det h t a o d b i r n in vi g ebs coulde,foret be eh e of an Act of Parliament — a measure accomplishe d which I thoug ht the present necessities of the case might b e met. I should have proposed that it should be possible—notwithstanding former Acts limiting certain offices to the covenanted ser vice--that the uncovenanted servants should be admitted to any or to all of those posts, but only after a certain num ber of years' service in the country, and upon the recom mendation of the Governor-General, and with the sanction of the Secretary of State. If you establish these three checks; a id e d as you would be by the individual jealousy of the covenanted service itself, which always looks with dis. favour upon those who enter it from without, and would prevent the privilege from being abused, and if you pro ceed in the first instance gradually, admitting in rare in stances those who deserved well in the lower branches of the service of India, be they natives or Europeans, my .pinion is fhat you would be enabled ultimately to effect, I will not not say a very large, but a considerable saving in the general expenditure of that country. (Hear.) You would do more ; you would give satisfaction to a large class of persons who now look upon their position with feelings of discontent, and thus economise, though in a dif ferent way, to a greater extent than you suppose. (Hear.) There is also another measure with respe9t to the Indian Civil Service on which I am anxious to say a few words, and which is, I believe, at present under consideration. I thought a saving—though certainly, perhaps, not a very considerable one—might be effected by dealing with the higher departments of the Indian service, and thus afford ing an indication of the intention of the Government to en force economy in earnest. In speaking of the higher de partments of the service I refer especially to the composi tion of the Governor-General's Council in Calcutta. At present that council consists of four members, each of whom receives a salary of £B,OOO per annum. They are, however, charged with the duties of no particular de partment, and simply revise and superintend, as it were, the whole administration, thus acting as a nominal—for it is only a nominal—check on the Governor-General, while they write minutes home on all the subjects which come under their notice. Now, it is, I admit, quite right that the Governor-General, who has had in many instances no previous acquaintance with India, should, on his arrival there, be surrounded by competent and experienced ad visers. I am nevertheless of opinion that you might have a council equally efficient as the present, and yet effect a saving of expenditure to some extent, if, instead of employ ing councillors who discharge no executive functions, you would engage the services of those in that capacity who happened to be the actual heads of the principal depart ments. (Hear. hear.) I of course do not; mean these ob vations to refer to those who now occupy the position of members of the Council of India. I simply mean to sug gest it as a proposal worthy of a consideration, that as in England we have a Cabinet—which is the consulting body —the individual members of which have charge of separate departments, while they are collectively responsible for the conduct of affairs, so in India, a similar system might be established. Something would be saved directly by the adoption of such a course ; but I believe a still greater ad vantage might be gained indirectly, inasmuch as there would be less cause for complaint in the lower branches of the service, when it was found that reductions had coin• menced in the higher quarters. (Hear.) But however that may be, I am of opinion that in considering the balance of income and expenditure it will be found that a large reduc tion in the present outlay in India must be on account of rail ways. About £20,000,000 capital—to speak in round num bers—have been paid up. The interest which the Indian Government has guaranteed, and which is paid, amounts to £1,000,000. From this expenditure there has been as yet very little return, inasmuch as there are cniy a fewlines open, and there is in consequence hardly anything to be set off against the, outlay. When, however, the main lines are once com pleted I feel confident that—although a line here and there may not pay—it will be found, setting off the good against the bad, that they will more than meet the amount which has been guaranteed. You may, therefore, look forward to a prospective reduction in this respect of £500,000 or £1,000,000. I cannot help thinking also—although the point is one on which I venture to give an opinion with some hesitation—that the sums we have paid in the shape of compensation will not be altogether without ari,offset in future years. The account is not, at all events, so unfa vourable as it may appear to be, because, notwithstanding the large and liberal sums which have been given in making lines in different parts of India, something must be due to the Government of that country in connection with for feited estates. But passing from that subject, I may be per mitted to observe that the right hon. gentleman stated only the simple fact when he told us that the question of equali sing the balance of income and expenditure depended mainly upon the position in which we maintained our military force. The expense of the Indian army previous to the insurrection was £12,500,000. It has been since that period nearly doubled, and that circumstance alone would more than ac count for the total deficit of the last two or three years. Upon this score I entertain no sanguine anticipations, in asmuch as I think it will be impossible to return for some time to the old standard in the case of our military force in India. The right hon. gentleman stated truly enough that, previous to the mutiny, between 45,000 and 46,000 troops were the maximum amount of the European force in India; the number of the native army being then 250,000, while they have since increased enormously; the ' European force also being much greater than before. Now, with respect to the native troops, I may say that if no re duction has been made before the present time in their number it has been because the Government of India on the spot did not think it expedient that any such reduction should be made. The Indian authorities have, indeed, been pressed over and over again by the Home Government to make such reductions in the native force as they thought could be made consistently with the safety of the empire. For my own part, I believe this may be done, and soon, without giving rise to any discontent on the part of the men themselves, especially in the case of men such as those who come from the Punjab, and who were informed that their services would be required only for a particular emergency. Looking at the whole military question, and with a lively recollection of the condition of Indian finance, I confess, though on this point I speak with hesitation and doubt, I do not see that it would in any case be safe or wise to reduce the European force hereafter to be retained in India below 60,000 or 65,000. I am not speaking of what would be advisable in a military point of view, but I do not think any Minister would take upon himself to reduce the European force below that number, and I am afraid that force would impose a very serious burden on the resources of India. (Hear.) With regard to the native force un doubtedly a much larger reduction might be made and I think when the immediate exigency is over, this question of military police, on which an enormous outlay has taken place, ought to be looked into carefully and minutely. In every case this great force of military police was raised by the authorities on the spot, and not in consequence of direc tions from home. I do not say that it was a mistake, or could be avoided, but, of course, when the force was par tially created and a good defl of money had been spent, we had no option except to sanction that expenditure. (Hear, hear.) I know that many of the highest authorities doubt whether, with the exception of newly-acquired countries, any police force should be kept on a purely military organi sation. (Rear, hear.) There is the danger of such a force becoming neither one thing nor the other—not disciplined enough for a military force, and at the same time too regular a force for the ordinary duties of police. If I had to suggest the means bywhich the military organisation could be diminished, T should say that in the first place it would be better for the Indian Government to confine their attention to the army of Bengal, and not attempt to introdude larg e changes into those of Madras and Bombay. (Hear, hear .) I think also, that whatever other steps are taken a large proportion of the European force maintained in India—probably not less than two-thirds—should be troops exclusively for Indian service. I say that on many grounds, partly because it is a great object to save the cost of transport to and fro, but mainly because I think that if you withdraw from the Governor- General and the administration of India the assistance of many hundredaof able and intelligent young men who have gone out as officers, intending to pass their lives in India, and available for either civil or military duties, and if you replace them by men of equal intelligence and ability, yet not intending to remain beyond a few years, you weaken the Indian administration in a civil and military point of view to an extent hardly possible to calculate. (Hear, hear.) I do not know that there are any other remarks which I feel it my duty to make at present. The subjects connected with Indian administration are almost without limit, and it is possible to go into them at much greater length ; but I have endeavoured to dwell upon those which have a more immediate and practical reference to Indian finance. (Hear.) Mr. BRIGHT said—l have so often addressed the house on this question that I feel some hesitation in asking for any portion of the time of the committee this evening. Notwith standing the opinion expressed by the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for India, that he does not see anything gloomy in the future of India, I confess that in my view the question assumes yearly greater magnitude and greater peril. Having given some attention to the subject for some years, I may perhaps be allowed to take my share, be it more or less,in the attempt which is being made to confront the great evils which beset it. The right hon. gentleman has given us, when we recollect how insufficient are the accounts obtain able from India, as clear an account of the state of Indian affairs as could be expected, and it seems to me to come to this, that• we have, as we have had for the last 20 years in India, a rapidly accumulating deficit upon deficit, and debt upon debt. The right hon. gentleman says that when he left the office of Secretary for India, I think in 185,5, that conntry was in a flourishing condition. It cer tainly did happen that, by a manage ment .which I have observed in Indian affairs, the deficit was brought down to £150,000. Sir C. WOOD—There was a surplus. Mr. BRIGHT—I believe that there was a-deficit some thing like that. But if the right hon. gentleman will allow me to take the three years before the mutiny, that will give us a better idea of the real state of the case, which it is no use our endeavouring to avoid, as it will surely find us out. In the three years before the mutiny the deficit was about £1,800,000, being nearly a million for each year. That was not the fault of the right hon. gentleman, he did not cause the deficit, and I only state this to show that things were not in so flourishing a state as the right hon. gentleman wished to show. There is another point of very great im portance. It appears to me that a government must be a bad government when it cannot defray its expenses out of the taxation of the people. In India there is a source of re venue which is not levied by taxation on the people, the re venue derived from opium, which is levied in the same manner as the revenue derived by Peru from the export of guano. If we turn to the three years to which I have alluded, and see what relation the revenue received by the Government bore to tho . taxes levied on the people, it will be found either that the people were too poor to pay, or that the Government was extravagant in its expenditure, for the tax on opium produced ten millions and a half, and if you add that to the two millions and a half of deficit on the three years, you get a deficit of 13 millions, which is exactly the sum over and above that which was raised by the Government from the taxation of the people. This ought to be a source of alarm, for we know that the revenue derived from opium is precarious, and that, from causes connected with variations in the climate of India, or from variations in the conduct of the government of China, that source of revenue may be impaired or entirely cut off. The right hon. gentleman has brought before us the position in which we now are, and it is in a few words this : the debt of India has been constantly rising until it amounts to a hundred millions sterling. (No, no.) The right hon. gentleman said that it is now 95 millions, and that he expects a deficit of five millions next year, and therefore it is fair to argue that the debt is 100 millions, and the deficit 12 millions this year and is expected to be 10 millions next year. It is not to be wondered at that there is a difficulty in borrowing money on account of India. I amnotsurprised that the hon. mem ber for Kendal should have been so lively about the house to-night, for I believe that he and others connected with the City are endeavouring to impress on the right hon. gentle. man that money is not to be got for India. It cannot be bor rowed without the payment of high interest, and perhaps not at all, except that England, notwithstanding the troubles she gets into, either by the blood of her soldiers or by some other cause, somehow or other manages to scramble through her difficulties, and contrives to maintain a reputation for good faith greater than that of any nation in the world. With regard to an imperial guarantee, I differ from the noble lord (Stanley), though I agree with him with regard to an opinion he expressed on the question of military ex penditure. Last year I said that the cost of the Affghan war, amounting to to millions, ought to have been thrown on the taxation of England, as that war was undertaken by the Government for purposes said to be English., but as I say, neither Indian nor English, and it was most unjust that it should have been thrown on the revenue of India. I do not oppose an imperial guarantee because I have any sympathy in this respect with the English taxpayer, for he has been most negligent with regard to the affairs of India, and ought to suffer for his neglect. I think it is an injustice to impose millions as burdens on the Indian taxpayer on account of matters with which ho has nothing to do, and which will not hringhina a, handful more or less of the rice he eats. But robjeet to an imperial guarantee beCause if you let the administration of India know that, having ex hausted the resources of India, they can put their hands into the pockets of the English people for what they want— (hear, hear)—and we having no control over them—(hear, hear)—l do not know how far they may be tempted to go, and I do not know whether if, in endeavouring to save India, you might not ruin England. (Hear, hear.) There is another question of Indian finance, and that is the enor• mous proportion which the military service takes of the whole taxation of India. It may be shown that almost the whole net revenue of India is absorbed by the military ser vice, and that not a farthing is left to pay the civil service, and to pay the public creditor, for if you leave out the amount derived from the duty on opium you will see that more than all the net revenue raised by the taxation of the people of India is absorbed by the military service of India. That is a state of things which has never existed in any country or at any time without bringing with it anarchy and ruin. We are told by the Governor-General that the great bulk of the revenue of India is not elastic. With re gard to the land tax, for a long period it has shown no in crease, but on the contrary there has been rather some de crease in that great source of income. Then he tells us further that the army cannot at present be safely reduced. If so, what does it come to? It must come to one of two things, either the government of India is coming to an end, or England must become the tributary of India ; and, see ing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has recently asked for 70 millions from the English tax-payer, any proposition for adding to that five or six millions for the government of India will be received with no little dissatisfaction by the country. The view, therefore, is alarming, although so much satisfaction has been expressed by the Secretary for India: I have been twitted by some persons in this house for taking the alarm and looking round, for some mode of escape, and they say that there are some modes, if we will adopt them. One hon. gentleman says that I am no better than the rest, that I know that the government of India cannot be carried on in this country, and that it would be better for us to withdraw, and endeavour to re-establish something like the ancient government of India. Another hon. gentleman asks if there is no one who will tell the House of Commons the truth in this matter. I do not know why he does not tell it himself. Perhaps he thinks he would be too rash. But he wishes that the Government should re-estab lish the Punjaub, restore the Ameers of Scinde, replace the King of Oude in his dominions, and give back the territory of Nagpore. I confess, whether it be rash or not, that I think it would be 'vise to restore the government of the Punjaub, and to give independence to that province which is called Scinde, because—l will not say because—but, it is one reason, as from that part of the country no revenue is received in excess of the expense which its retention causes to this country, why we should endeavour to bring our do minicals in India within a reasonable and manageable com pass. Nothing can be more idiotic than the policy we have pursued of late years in India, and the dreadful calamity which has occurred is, the natural result of that policy. It is not easy when you have earls and marquises for Govers nor-generals, and when you erect bronze statues on squares to those who have carried out this policy, it is not easy for the men who have been doing all this to turn round and pursue an opposite course, and consenting to dimi nish our empire might be wrongly construed in the world ; but as far as good government is concerned, in a few years every one will admit that it will be a wise policy to circumscaibe our territory in India. I may be sure, however, that it is not likely that the government—that it is not likely that the House of Com mons—will come to such an opinion until some greater ex tremity comes upon us. There is another course which may be pursued, and that is, that taking the country as it stands, with our annexations as they are, let us see if we cannot do better than we have done, and give us a chance of redeeming our character for the management of the finances and legis • lation of India. The noble lord says truly that no serious diminution o'f expenditure can be expected in the civil ser vice. But I do not agree with him or with the Secretary for India when they give the house to understand that these gentlemen of the civil service are not overpaid. No set of men in the world, except some bishops and archbishops that we have heard of—(laughter)—are so grossly overpaid as the civil service of India. As a proof of it, look at Ceylon. The duties of the civil service there are as great, the climate as trying, but you do not pay them one-half that which the civil service in India receives. Then you have the officers of the Indian army, and the clergy, and the missionaries, and the English merchants who live in India, and carry on busi ness at a rate of profit not much greater than they could get in this country, but the civil service, like every thing privi. leged and exclusive, is pampered and overpaid, and notwith standing that there have been able men among them who have done their duty, it does not, in my opinion, deserve the high praises I have heard given to it by speakers in this house. If you wonld reduce the expenditure of the civil service, the best thing Sou could do would be to increase the magistracy and the administration in every district. in American gentleman who has written on the subject of India says that you want a hundred European magistrates for every one that you have ; but if you could double the number of magistrates by reducing the incomes of the members of the civil service by one-half, you might not save mono , for the payment of the deficit and the interest on the debt, but you would have a more efficient and com plete service. The question of military expenditure is one which this house will have to take in hand, for it is clear that the Secretary for India, with the fifteen gentle men at Leadenhall-street, just as the noble lord the late secretary, with the fifteen gentlemen around him was, is afraid to grapple with this question. I am not surprised that he should hesitate, for he will have every military man making the strongest remonstrances against reduc tion. We have heard that before the revolt the English troops in India were 45,000, and the native troops were 250,000. Now we find that the number of 45,000 is raised to 110,000, and the 2.50,000 is become upwards of 300,000. What were we told during the revolt in all those learned letters of English officers which appeared in the news papers? Every one said that the great folly we had com mitted was having a native army far larger than we re quired ; that this was our. peril, and this had been the only cause of the mutiny. But now we have a larger portion of this perilous element than before ! The authorities of India do not appear to have learnt anything from the mutiny, or else all that we have heard was untrue, for they have 50,000 more native troops now than they had before. (Hear, hear.) Their mode of argument seems to be this— the native army was the cause of the peril, and therefore it was necessary to have more of it ; and since 45,000 Eng lish troops were not enough to keep the former native army in check, we have now 110,000, and it is declared that 80,000 or 85,000 are the fewest we can do with. But, if you must have one body of troops to watch another, there is no chance of any reduction of expenditure. The revolt, terrible as it was, was suppressed mainly by the 4.5,000 English who were in India, and not by the 100,000 sent out later. At present, if those who were disaffected in India are not satisfied, they are at least dispirited, and all hope of resisting the power of England for a long time to come has disappeared. You have disarmed millions of peo ple throughout vast provinces, and I read a few days ago that 1,600 forts in the kingdom of Oude have been destroyed, as we know.many ethers have been in various parts of the country. There is at this moment no power of combined, or panised, armed resistance, except that which exists in the native army, which your Indian Government has been building up of late to a greater extent than before. The noble lord spoke of the want of confidence between the two races in consequence of the events of the last two years. The shock of the revolt must have bred suspicion, hatred, and fear. Panic grows most readily out of these conditions, and there is panic in India:which is perhaps infectious, since we see something of the sort here. Under that panic, recollect ing what has passed, the Government, the civil service, and the military officers cannot feel it would be safe to have a smaller military force. But if you ask any military officers in any country they will tell you there is never enough military force. The other evening somebody remarked of this that " there is nothing like leather," and there are ad mirals in this house who can never have enough of ships— if the Channel were crowded with them, theywould eall for a larger fleet. It is so, also, though I am glad to see not in this house to so great an extent, with regard to troops. Naval and military officers are not the men to whom Chan cellors of the Exchequers must depute the great and solemn duty of determining what must be expended for such pur poses. Any country would be bankrupt and ruined if the military authorities were to determine what military force should be kept up, and how much of the public revenue should be employed in gaping for it. But I have another objection to this great army, and here 1 come to the question of policy which the Secretary of State has not touched. With this great army there are two things you will never have. You will never l / 4 have reforms of the government of India of any kind, and you will never have an improved conduct of the English in India towards the natives. With a power like this of 110,000 English troops, an English regiment within hail of every officer of your civil service, the supremacy of the conquering race will be displayed in its most offensive form. We know that when the English were supposed to be feeble in India, when we had no great armies, fleets, and revenues there, every Englishman treated the natives who surrounded him with the feeling that he was rather an in truder in the country, and that it was not only proper but absolutely necessary to treat the natives in a just and con ciliatory manner. It was precisely as our power increased, and as we found, from the docility of these people that we had nothing to fear from their anger, that our countrymen unfortunately assumed another character. I find in that admirable 'book of the Hon. F. Shaw's, that even 30 years ago this was the cause of an ill-feeling between the two races in India, which has grown from that time to this, until now there is so much irritation and animosity as per haps can hardly in our time be allayed. The Government, with this great army ; must always be in difficulties. Lord Canning, or Lord Anybody Else, can attend to nothing but this wearying, exasperating question of hoiv the money is to be got for the next quarter for the payment of the army; he can attend to no measures of reform. The House of Commons must, therefore, insist on it that the Government shall, whatever be the risk, reduce this army to a very large extent. A great army will make it impossible for you to hold the country, for your debt will be constantly increas ing, and anarchy must overwhelm you in the end. H ave a small army, or a moderate army, with a conciliatory and just Government, and with your finances in a prosperous condition, and I know not but for centuries the English race may have a share in the government of tho se vas t territories which they have conquered. (Hear.) I admit that it is of very litttle use tol attempt reductions, unless you also attempt improvements. My charge against the Indian Government is this—that there is no suck thing as a real Government of India at all—that there is no Government responsible either to any public opinion there, or any public opinion here, so that we cannot expect a better policy, or happier results from it. Imagine a Go vernment over which the tax-payers had not the slightest control. The people of India had no control oser the Go vernment. There is no independent English opinion there, the only opinion which the Government feels is that of the civil and militaryservice, but chiefly the civil service; they are not the payers, but the spenders and enjoyers of the taxes. The Government of India is therefore in a most unfortunate position for fulfilling its duties. The civil ser vice, being privileged, is arrogant and—l had almost said —tyrannous. The military service is clamorous and insa tiable for more expenditure. The Governor-General him self is the creature of these circumstances. He submits to no kind of home control. A case which occurred whilst the noble lord who has just spoken was in office will ex emplify this. During last year the hon. membe r for Stock port,k _ who both in the house and in committee has question about duoini tiring attention to Indian questions put a sti t the annexation of a small territory called the Rajahship of Dahr. The news reached us on the 20 th of March last year. and on the 23d the question was put. The hon. mem bert for Inverness, then Under-Secretary, in formed us that it was the act of the Govornor-General, who was solely re isnpfoonrsmibalteion about,andtba i t t. the ln G j ov un er o nm th e e nt no h b e l r e e to the house thathe had - disallowed the annexatio n of Dalin The despatch of the noble lord so disallowing i t was dated the 22d of June last year, asking the Governor -General for further information. It appeared the Governor-General l h or a d d announcednafurther e as sumed that this unfortunate Rajahship bad been guilty of grosS misdemeanors, because its troops had revolted. The noble lord in his despatch remarked that it would not be just to deprive the Rajah of his territories for this, when we could not keep our own troops in order. In the preceding Aprilwtahee britß a Rupee, e e b , 0 mother y o f thi r o t r e e m n teheenrt vernor-Gencral, remonstrating against this wrong, and i a n - m l a e w mo o ri f al t ht to e t h ß e aj G ab o s howing reasons to prove that they were not who ' This memorial was not aekno*ledged, - and in April last, when the papers relating to this matter were laid on the table of the house, the memorial of the Ranee, of which I have a copy, was not included amongst them. The noble lord wrote his despatch on the 22d of June, 1858, and to this hour of the Ist of August, 1859, I believe no answer has been returned to it. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord dis allowed the annexation ; he argued the question against it ; he condemned it ; he asked the Governor-General for infor mation ; and to this hour, I believe, there has not come any official reply or answer from the Governor-General. I say it is not fitting that the Secretary of State for India should be treated thus—with such utter disregard or contempt— by any great satrap who happens to be sent out to govern India. This case shows that there is no Government of India responsible to the Government at home. It shows that, even amidst the terrific hurricane of that mutiny, the thirst of annexation was still insatiate ; that at the moment when the Queen was about to send out her gracious pro clamation an act of direct and evident injustice was com mitted against a boy thirteen years of age, the ruler of a small territory ; and this was done in utter disregard of the disapproval of the Government here or of the just senti ments of the people of England. And it must be so with the Government of Calcutta. Procrastination is the very nature of that Government of Calcutta. The noble lord (Lord Stanley) did an excellent thing in appointing a man of a new sort to be Governor of Madras, Sir Chas. Trevelyan, whom I believe to be a very intelligent man, earnest and anxious to do his best for the good of India. But Sir Charles Trevelyan finds that at Madras he is like a man who is manacled, as all the governors of those presidencies are, so that he can do almost nothing. He has a spirit above being a mere passive instrument in the hands of the Governor- General, and therefore he has been disposed to make several changes, which are looked upon as excessively heterodox by the persons connected with the old Government of India, the fifteen gentlemen who sit in Leadenhall street, and their brethren in India. He has endeavoured to con ciliate the natives by abolishing certain ceremonial distinctions which were supposed to degrade them when visiting Government house, and also by " general courtesy," which appears to be not usually practised in India—by con spicuously rewarding the chief native officers, by appoint ing a native aide-de-camp, by inviting native gentlemen to meet him at a monthly durbar, by promising a settlement of the land tax and of the enam, by abolishing the impress ment of cattle and carts, and by abolishing three-fourths, or perhaps more, of the paper work of public servants. He has at the same time undertaken the great task of judicial reform. Now, what is said of him ? He has got himself into a hornet's nest, all Calcutta is up against him, and the Government newspapers cry out, " We might as well have Madras independent if the Governor of Madras is to do just what he likes." The Friend of India , writing in May last, speaks of him as follows :—" it Charles relies doubt less on Lord Stanley, and we do not dream of denying that the -Secretary of State has provocation enough to excuse the unusual course he seems obliged to pursue. To send a reform to Calcutta is at present simply to lay it aside. It will probably not even be answered for two years, certainly not carried in five. Even when sanctioned it will have to pass through the crucible from which no plan can escape entire." And then, with some sympathy for the unfortu nate wretches who have to appeal to Calcutta for anything, the Friend of India exclaims, "That weary waiting for Calcutta, of which all men, from Lord Stanley to the people of Singapore, now have to complain, may well tempt the Secretary of State to carry on his plans by the first mode offered to his hands." Two or three articles I have seen to the same purport. I am justified, therefore, in condemning a Secretary of State who contents himself with giving us the mere figures which any clerk in his office could have given, and abstains from explaining that policy of the Go vernment of India upon which alone you can base any solid improvement in the condition of that country. There is another point I would mention. The Governor-General of India goes out knowing little or nothing of India. When he is appointed he probably does what any of us would do —takes down the first volume of Mill's "British India," and begins to read about it. We have heard from the hon. member for Aberdeen that there are 21 different nations and 21 languages in India. The Governor-General goes out knowing none of them. He is surrounded, - however, by half-a-dozen or a dozen gentlemen whO have been in India from 15 to 40 years, having scrambled up from a moderate beginning to high positions. No Governor-General can travel over any considerable part of India ; he is there in an official circle, breathing an official atmotphere—and all is dim or dark beyond it. Duties are laid upon it utterly be yond either the mental or bodily strength of any one to per form. Turning from the Governor-General to the mem bers of the Indian civil service, it is remarkable how short a time any man remains in any particular office. A com mittee upstairs took the evidence Of Mr. Underhill, secretary of the Baptist mission in India, who says that throughout Bengal there are three or four Englishmen to a million of inhabitants, and that there is a perpetual change of magis trates. In the city of Dacca, for a period of 20 years, there was a change every ten months. He gives the names of some—Mr. Henry Lushington, for instance, who during 21 years filled 21 different offices, besides spending four years and a quarter in two visits to Europe • Mr. J. P. Grant, now Governor of Bengal, during 13 years, held 24 dif ferent situations, being an average of less than six months ; Mr. Charles Grant in 13 years held 17 offices, being eight months for each office, and Mr. Halliday, the late Governor of Bengal, in 18 years held 21 different offices, and did not become stationary till he obtained the lucrative office of Governor of Bengal. These facts show that there is some thing in the character of the Indian Ckovernment which made it no government at all except for taxes and spending of taxes. It is no government for overseeing the people or bestowing upon them those blessings which we pretend to ourselves that our government is established to promote. What can the Governor-General do with this council, and these ever-changing officers in every deyartment ? What, he asked, had the Government of India ever yet done for the people? The judges, for the most part in the company's courts were without training and without law, and perjury and wrong were universal wherever those courts were established. The officers of finance had no system of book-keeping; the Sec retary for India could only give accounts up to April, 1858, and since that there was nothing but a mere estimate. Every figure for a year later ought to have been on the table of the house ; but in reality there was no Government, and that was the reason why it was not done. Sir C. Wood had spoken of the increase of trade ; but when so many mil lions had been spent on railways and on the war the in crease was in great part accounted for, and could not be expected to continue. (Hear, hear.) The point he wished to bring the Government to was this. A great improve ment might be made without dislocating anything. Let them decentralise their Government. It was impossible to govern twenty-one nations, with twenty-one different lang uages, by means of half-a-dqzen men who knew nothing of the wants of the people. If the country were divided into provinces of 20 millions each under their own Government, it; would be quite possible to govern India with advantage to the country. He believed that the bill of last session had been of little benefit in this respect. He would recom mend the right hon. gentleman to give independent govern ments in the first place to each of the presidencies, allowing each of those governments to correspond with the home Government. At present there was no kind of tie between the governor and the governed. Why should not we do in Madras what had been done in the island of Ceylon? There the council consisted of sixteen members, six of whom at least were independent of Government— namely, a Bungalese, a Brahmin, a half-caste, and three English merchants. These, though not a majority, repre sented the public opinion. Why should not something of the same kind take place in the Indian governments ? At present they were in fetters, as Sir C. 1 revelyan was in fetters ; but he hoped that the civil service would not get up a rebellion against him. (Hear.) With reference to religious instruction in India, he would caution the right honourable gentleman against any attempt to alter exist ing institutions with a view to the abolition of caste. The accounts of the reading of the Queen's procla mation showed that toleration of the native religions was the be-all and end-all with the people of India. For years past the East India Company had shown that nobody could write despatches and proclamations in so Christian a spirit, and yet whose conduct was so unchristian. (Hear, hear.) Referring to the regulations for admission to the civil ser vice of India, the hon. gentlemen mentioned the case of a young native who had come to this country for the express purpose of preparing himself for the civil service; but, -owing to the age of admission being suddenly redu ce d from 23 to 22, ho had been obliged to abandon his design, although his father had expended £1,500 in his education. Had this young man been allowed to enter the civil service the result would have been that numbers of youths in similar positions would have become candidates, and it would have been necessary to establish examinations in India. (Hear.) Had this young man and a few others come into the civil service, it would have been worth at least a regiment of soldiers. (Hear.) The more he con sidered and discussed the government of India, the more convinced he was that no improvement could be made ex cept by decentralising the Government, and making the government of each province ton large extent independent. Under the present system one man was expected to govern 280 millions of people. As well might they expect all Europe to be governed by a native of the F ee j ee leland . (Hear, hear.) Look at what was taking place in India now. Would the mutiny of our troops have occurred if there had been anything like government in the country? Was it not likely that the natives would take advantagnethere of thee state of the European army organisevoThe fact was, we had put down all government but our own. The chiefs of tribes and provinces were now wanderers on the soil where once they ruled. (Hear, of things would soon become serious. i hear.) This state ire were showing to could conquer we could the people of India that though 7 not govern, and he hoped it mightelnedoet future that India was avenged by the dreadfu ram both of men and money which she inflicted upon this country. (Cheers.) Mr. T. G. BARING said there were many points which the hon. gentleman the member for Birmingham had given utterance to, in which he entirely concurred; but there was, on the other n ha d, much that the right hon. gentleman had expressed in w hich he could not agree. He agreed with the hon. gentlemani that the Governor-General of India was over worked, and that some change was ne cessary in that respect. The hon. gentlemen had referred to the many ehanges which took place in the offices in India ; but if the right hon. gentleman would turn his attention to the offices of thi s country, he would also see that they were subject to many changes. The hon. gentleman had referred to the Governor of Madras, but that gentleman was a man of great e xperience, and any recommendation or suggestions coming from him was certain to meet with the atention it deserved from the home Government. One of the minuted written by Sir Charles Trevelyan atMadras, in relation to an act passe d, not b y the present Governor - General of India, had been severely commented upon by a Madras paper, and seemed now to furnish the hon. gentle man with subject for commentary. It could not be denied that the question of finance was of great importance, and that many other important points best came under the cog nisance of the Governor of India. With respect to the sug gestion of the hon. gentleman that it was desirable to encourage friendly association between the native'and Eu ropean populations, he begged to assure him that the Government was most desirous to promote such intercourse. The great question for the consideration of the committee that night was the finance of India. The hon. gentleman the member for Birmingham, adverting to the military ex penditure in. India, said it much exceeded the revenue of that country ; but lie assured the hon. gentleman that the Government would do all in their power so to reduce the military expenditure as to bring it down to what it was pre vious to the mutiny. The hon. gentleman bad also called at tention to the expendi tare in the civil service. He certainly admitted that there were some matters in the civil service which strongly required amendment, and that there were many offices there which were overpaid, in proportion to the work done, and which it was hoped wouid soon be either materially altered or abolished. There were, however, many offices in the civil service the duties of which were very onerous. Looking at the statement of his right hon. friend, he found there was a deficit of £12,500,000 against £13,500,000 of ways and means to make up. There was, he admitted, an actual excess of. £9,500,000 in the military expenditure over that of the preceding year. ; but he could assure the committee that the Government at home and the Government of India would do all in their power to so re duce the expenditure as to bring it, in the course of three yearr, to balance with the amount it was at prior to the mutiny. He might, in conclusion, state that her Majesty's Government were most anxious, in accordance with the spirit and feeling of her lgajesty's Proclamation, to see that the native population of India should be governed on just principles, and that they should be placed upon terms of perfect equality, both as to their civil and religious rights, with the European population. (Hear.) Mr. D. SEYMOUR could not but express a wish that the right hon. baronet, the Secretary of State for India, had spoken more explicitly on many points to which he had that evening adverted. The question of the sale of land in In dia referred to by Sir C. Trevelyan, was one of great im portance, and ought to be fairly considered. Then, as to the laws of India, there was nothing that more required reform. They had been submitted to the consideration of several officers, and made the subject of their experiments, but there were no results. The recommendations of those officers were referred to members of the council, but they, instead of considering them, referred the matter to subordinate officers. Indeed, there was an opinion that, when once a thing was referred to Calcutta, it was shelved for ever. He regretted to say that the Government did not do anything in a practical manner. He would take for instance the salaries of the civil servants in India, and ask, had they been dealt with in a practical manner ? Most certainly not. The right honourable baronet, when he was President of the Board of Control, certainly sent out directions on the subject, and caused Mr. Ricketts to go through every presidency in India. That gentleman furnished 24 reports, but nothing whatever had been done in relation to them. The result was that the principle of reducing the income of the civil service remained nugatory. The hostile feeling in the Indian army was well known for 20 years before the mutiny took place, and Lord Dalhousie had recommended an alteration in the administration of the army, which, however, was disregarded. He thought that much was due to the noble lord the Secretary for India (Lord Stanley), who by his policy had done much to win the natives of India to this Government. He complained of the course which the home Government had adopted in reference to the claims of the native princes, as was-shown in many cases. He believed the Government would gain very much if more attention was paid to those claims. He must say that the proposed mode of raising taxes in India would be oppressive in that country. He believed that the tax upon salt would press heavily upon the natives of that country, especially as regarded its use in curing of fish. He also contended that the increased tax upon stamps would be eqUally an objection. He could not understand how the licensing system would not produce any large amount of revenue, nor did be think the succession tax would produce much. He thought there were many modes of raising taxes which were not touched upon. Nothing was said of taxing the moneyed classes in India. A tax of this kind was successful in Russia. He also thought a poll tax would produce a good amount of revenue, and he believed that a tax upon land would be a beneficial means of increasing the revenue of the country. The lands round Kurrachee, Bombay, and Madras, might be sold at fair prices, and by realising a very legitimate and considerable amount of revenue, spare them the necessity of borrowing in the public market. In conclusion, he would call attention to the great fault, inexcusable in a commercial people, of employing the time of our soldiers in the conveyance of silver from one end of the country to the other. Banking was greatly on the increase in Indio, and if Russia could find the means of sending her paper into every corner of the country, surely it was possible for us to do so too. Reform, however, was as much needed at home as abroad, for in Leadenhall-street the same obstruc tive influences were still at work, to the great detriment of our Indian interests. Mr. VANSITTART was glad that the Secretary for India was not going to reduce the salaries of the civil service in India, at any rate in the course of the present incumbents. He advocated a greater amount of supervision in the civil service. He thought they ought to abolish the legislative council at Calcutta, till it could be re-organised on a better basis, unite the Suddar and Dawlut Courts, and take various measures to encourage the natives of India, to invest their moneys in public works for the benefit of India. In spite of the gloomy prognostications of many members, owing to the gloomy financial position of the country with proper management he believed that in the course of a few years India might be restored to the position she occupied before the mutiny broke out. Mr. GREGSON said he hoped the military expenditure of the country would be reduced, and he was glad that there was not going to be an Imperial guarantee. Mr. A. KINNAIRD said, that to alter the land tax with out providing a substitute, would be unwise. He thought the Government did not appreciate the crisis in India at the present moment. He thought that India had been of so much service to this country that it was wrong to with hold the Imperial guarantee now asked for. If the right hon. baronet had, as he had said, such confidence in the elasticity of the Indian revenue, why withhold that Impe rial guarantee, which, if something bold and prompt were not done, they would find themselves compelled to grant in the end. Mr. HANKEY satd that either they should abolish the old company or give an Imperial guarantee for every loan that was intended to be raised. Sir C. WOOD said that the sum to be raised by deben tures was two and a half millions, and not six millions, as was supposed. The resolution was agreed to, and the house resumed. SUPPLY. The report on supply was brought up and received. The Vexatious Indictments Bill was read a third time and passed. DUBLIN POLICE BILL. Mr. VANCE opposed the second reading of the bill, and it was agreed that the next stage of the bill should be taken on Wednesday. The Charitable and Provident Societies Bill was read a second time, after a few brief words of explanation from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. The Coinage Bill was read a second time. The Stamp Duties Bill was read a second time. The Reserve Volunteer Force of Seamen Bill was read a second time, the discussion to be taken on Friday on going into committee. The Government of India Act Amendment Bill was read a second time. The Universities Act Incorporation Bill was read a third time and passed. The Turnpike Trusts Arrangement Bill was read a second time, as was the Turnpike Acts Continuance Bill. The Customs Bill was also read a second time. The Law Ascertainment Facilities Bill passed through committee. The Attorneys and Solicitors Bill was read a second time. SETTLED ESTATES (1856) AMENDMENT BILL. On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill, • Sir J. SHELLEY objected that at that hour it was un derstood that no opposed bill was to be taken. Mr. WHITESIDE said the object of the bill was simply to put Sir Thomas Wilson in the same position as all other British subjects, and to be heard in a court of law. Sir Thomas Wilson had no intention whatever of building upon Hampstead-heath, and he had told the member for Finsbury that day, that if he wished it any proviso he might desire to prevent that being done would be introduced. But he protested against the metropolitan members uniting to prevent a proprietor, against whom the House of Commons and the House of Lords might have decided, from ever again having a hearing in a court of justice. The object of the bill was to prevent Sir Thomas Wilson from building on the hard land in the vicinity of Hampstead-heath, though they had given a railway company and a water company rights to make a railway and a re servo i r on that very land. If they passed a clause of tha t kind it would be a disgrace. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the right hon. gentleman had shown not only great imagination, lm i Lgi 3 e a a l ingratitude and want of accuracy in the statement_ just made, because the right hon. gentleman had different n ren in t communication with him, and h ad expressed very opinions. The bill was intended simp r ly w t h o i p eh rev h e e n h t eld ir t T he property, and on aT. Wilson from 'setting aside a will unde Parliament pewer thought n i g t the was not right that hfoermehereniocdcahsiaovne 1 1 lf, he was ctoath c ause se , t h o e a coLeugiretiaotfujrues.ticNive tiothsertesapsied e the deliberate decision of t only the instrument i n carrying he intentions he was A 0 moved the adjournment of the debate, and slr. WHITESIDEIFET explained. Sir r. it was accordingly adjourned. COURT OF PROBATE. This bill (comprising acquisition of site), was read a second time, AanDduoLdTerEeditAtoibleocNomomF itted. FOOD. On the motion of Mr. SCHOLEFIELD, the order for going into committee on this bill was d i s char g ed. FIRE-WORKS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion that this bill be committed, Mr. WHITESIDE moved that at that late hour the committee be discharged. Mr. WILLIAMS said the bill was a very important one. It was most alarming to have those manufactories of fire works in populous neighbourhoods, and particularly in the close neighbourhood of churches. The order, after some remarks by Mr. J. LOCKE (whose measure it is) and other hon. members, was pmtponed till to-morrow (this day). METROPOLITAN POLICE BILL. The order for further proceeding - with this bill at thislate period of the session, was, On the order of Mr, COWPER, discharged. DARTMOUTH ELECTION. Mr. PALK moved that a new writ be issued for the re turn of a member to represent the borough of Dartmouth. in the room of Edward Wyndham Harrington Schenley, whose election had been rendered void. Sir J. SHELLEY objected to the course taken by his hon. friend, and begged to remind the house that he had given notice of his intention to bring forward a motion, that no writ be issued for the return of a member for any place petitioned against until the committee had formally declared the seat vacant. Without going in this question, he would say that t,he house ought to know what wero the facts of the case. He believed that in nine cases out of ten hon. gentlemen were hooked into these cases of bribery by parties interested in on these elections. He begged there fore to move that the writ in this case should not issue until the house had an opportunity of reading the evidence given before the committee. Mr. ROEBUCK seconded the amendment, and in doing so made an appeal to the noble lord at the head of the Go vernment, not to give his sanction to an unconstitutional course of proceeding which it was probable would be at tempted. Any hon, gentleman who expected but disliked exposure could apply the Government for the Chiltern. Hundreds in order to avoid what would be a painful pub licity, but in such cases he trusted the noble lord would re fuse to grant the favour. (Hear, hear.) He would remind the house that some time ago the country was told that great corruption had been practised by gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the house. (Hear, hear.) He was sorry to say that late discoverie s had shown that the cor ruption was on the other side. (Hear, hear.) The result of that, however, was apparently that noble lords and right hon. gentlemen were now sitting upon that (the Govern ment) side of the house, for pretty nearly the majority which placed them there had been disfranchised on account of bribery. (Hear, hear.) Having made that appeal to the public virtue of the noble lord he would add one remark as to the conduct of committees. When a member of that house was petitioned against upon the ground of bribery, he must say he h a d no such faith in the simplicity of man kind as to suppose that any human being would spend £2,000, £3,000, or £4,000 in order to seat another person in that hou se excep t w i t h t h e k now l e d g e, if not by the direc tions of the hon. member himself. (Cries of "No," and " Hear, hear.") Was there anybody of so soft a head, or so a tender heart, as to believe that a man would be so wild as to give £3,000 or £5,000 to benefit another without that other person knowing anything of it ? (Hear, hear.) The statements made within the last 10 days were enough to shock the country, and by a party calling itself Liberal— (hear, hear)—a great number of whom he recollected in 1830 raising a n outcry against the corruption of the ancient boroughs. (Hear, hear.) Nothing was ever done in those ancient boroughs worse than had been done lately. It did i behove the house to take nto its serious consideration how it could put a stop to these thinFs, and he hoped hon. gen tlemen who served upon committees would have the cour age to be honest, and not add base hypocrisy to the horrible corruption that now prevailed. (" Oh," and "Hear.") He said hypocrisy, because he thought no reasonable being could imagine that a man would spend £6,000 or £B,OOO for the benefit of another without the sanction or cognisance of that other. (Hear, hear.) Sir G. GREY said he did not think anything had been, • said that would justify the house in refusing to issue the writ for Dartmouth. He would remind the house that after the St. Alban's case an act of Parliament was passed—he believed it was the 16th or 17th Victoria—by which a com mission could be ordered, in the event of the committee re porting that bribery and corruption had been practised to a large extent in the borough. No such report had been presented in this case, and there was therefore no reason for the writ in question being refused. Such was not the case in the Wakefield and Gloucester cases, and that would involve a different consideration. If they refused the writ they would ,be making themselves a court of appeal from the Dartmouth committee. Mr. LEFROY wished to state a few of the facts which came before the committee in question. The defence of the seat having been abandoned, and the borough not being affected by the cases of bribery, the committee did not feel it necessary to make any special report, and he believed the committee did not wish.to take any active part with refe rence to the issuing or withholding of the writ. Mr. PALK thought it would be an act of unkindness .to this borough to withhold the writ. Mr. BOUVERIE thought the speech of the right hon. baronet (Sir G. Grey) had pointed out to the house the proper course for it to pursue. He could not help say ing that the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Roebuck) had no right to accuse members of election committees, who were sworn to act justly at the table of the house, of being guilty of hypocrisy. Lord FERMOY said, though there might not be legal proof of extensive bribery at Dartmouth, he had a moral right to assume that there had been such bribery, as the hon. member had withdrawn from the inquiry. Mr. WHITESIDE believed the right hon. gentleman (Sir G. Gray) had correctly stated the rule that at present applied. He differed in the opinion that had been ex pressed by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Bouverie), and agreed in what had been said by the hon. and learned gen- tleman (Mr. Roebuck). The amendment having been withdrawn, the motion for issuing the writ was agreed to ; and some formal business having been disposed of, the house adjourned at twenty• five minutes past one o'clock. COUNTRY MARKBTS. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 2, 1859. GLOUCESTER-JULY 30. There was a large supply of samples on offer, and among them a good many of new wheat and barley, some of which were sold. Generally the sample is not so good as last year, being rather coarser and thicker in the bran. The market was rather firmer than on this day se'nnight, but we cannot quote prices any higher. COLCHESTER-JULY 30. At to-day's market we had a small supply of wheat, with a firm trade at about late rates. A few samples of new wheat, in good condition, were sold. In spring corn very little passing, and no change in prices. Wheat, white ....44s to 62s I Beans, Mazagan..3Bs to Qs red 40s to 46s I Middle & small 42s to 44s Barley 2Bs to 33s White peas 40s to 44r I Oats 24s to 32s Grey.. 38s to 414 DERBY-JULY 30. The show of wheat was small, and realised is per qr more money than last week, but the demand was inactive. Barley a scanty show at previous rates. Oats in moderate show and steady, at late rates. Beans are little inquired after, but prices maintained. The fineness of the weather during the week has enabled farmers in the forward dis tricts to commence harvest operations. White wheat, new, —s to —3 Red do. —s to —s Old white 46s to 52s Red do. 42s to 48s Barley, malting.— 38s to 43s Barley, grinding 28s to 304 Oats, old, .. 3os to 345 New do 29s to 30 4 Beans. 485 to 544 Beans, new —ft to —5 CHELMSFOI Wheat to-day advanced is rate, with a slower market. ;D-JULY 29. per quarter. Supply mode- Spring corn maintained its price. Wheat. white 43s to 52s Peas, Partridge ..438 to 468 red 41s to 49s White 42s to 44s Barley 32s to 40s Boiling 43s to 46s Chevalier ....34s to 41s Dun 408 to 42s Grinding 26s to 348 Beans, Tick ....40s to 42s Malt 63s to 68s Harrow Ticks 418 to 45s Chevalier 63s to 69s Mazagan 40s to 445 Oats 25s to 34s ROCHESTER-JuLy 30. There was a less supply of wheat, and a limited attend ance of farmers—white samples realising 46s to 48s ; red, 44s per 36 stone. There was nothing doing in barley. Oats were a small show, and last week's quotations barely main tained, namely, 30s to 34s per 24 stone. Beans scarce, and at extreme rates-50s to 54s per 38 stone. The trade gene rally was dull. Reaping has become general in this neigh bourhood, a considerable quantity of wheat having already been secured in splendid condition. KIRICALDY-JuLy 30. We had small supplies to-day of wheat, oats, and other grain. Sales free enough, and the prices of last week were maintained. Wheat (N). Barley (N). First.... 425 Od 338 6d Second .. 465 Od —a Od Third .. 48s Od —s Od Oats (N). 22s Od 24s 6d 28s Od Wheat (0 ). First.... --s Od Second.. --s Od Third .. —s Od Oats (0). —s Od —s Od —s dO COAL MARE (Prices of Coal per Ton at . e. d. Byass's Bebside West Hartley l5 3 Tanfield Moor Butes..l3 Walker Primrose 13 0 Lambert's West Hart- ley 15 3 Howard's West Hart- ley 15 6 Davison's West Hart- ley 15 6 Eden Main ..15 6 Birchgrove Graigola ..20 0 Walls End. South Hartlepool 16 0 Riddell 15 3 Ha5we11...... 17 6 Heugh Hall 15 6 Ships at market Barley (0). —8 Od .--8 Od —s Od ET—Aua. 1. the close of the market) Walls End. • R. el. Braddyll's Hatton 16 0 Keiper Grange 16 3 Framwellgate l6 0 Gosforth 15 3 Whitworth 14 6 Hartlepool..... 16 9 South Kelloe l6 3 Kelloe l6 6 Russell's Hetton 16 0 South Hetton 17 0 Stewart's 17 0 Cassop l6 0 Hetton l7 6 Thornley l5 0 Hunwick Nixon's Duffryn 21 6 Powell's Duffryn Steam 21 0 111—Sold, 84. [ADVERTISEMENT.]—ThorIey's Food for Cattle is now beginning to seriously attract the attention of the farmer, breeder, and feeder of stock. Two years of unremitting care and attention have enabled its inventor to take high ground as a benefactor to these interests ; and notwithstand ing the many drawbacks, the malevolent shafts hurled against it and its probable utility, the food, from its admitted value, will become a necessity to the agricultural interest. Experience has proved, first, that it effects a considerable saving in the consumption of provender; secondly, that it produces health and vigour in all animals subjected to its influence : and lastly, increases in a remarkable degree an early development of fat. Mr. Thorley, originating this singularly efficacious food, aimed at a compound calculated to supersede, to a certain extent, the tedious and expensive mode then prevailing of fattening stall-fed beasts. In this he happily succeeded ; and success prompted a very natural desire to improve upon the invention, so as to make it ap plicable to every description of domestic animal. The Eng lish farmer was slow to encourage its use, and manifested an unwillingness to rely upon its efficacy, fancying he possessed in the produce of his farm, ample materials whereby to feed and fatten his cattle at a cheaper rate than by the employment or addition of artificial food. The tests to which this food has been subjected have proved its perfect admissibility as a cheap addition to the natural produce of the farm ; inasmuch as in all cases a subtraction of o ne -thi r d may be safely submitted to in the usual food of animals ; and that the produce will be realised, and rendered mar k e t a bl e i n two-thirds of the time usually consumed in developing fat ; it, therefore, becomes apparent that a certain 'saving is effected by a fair application of Thorley's Compounded Food. It is believed that the present unprecedented low price of wheat has induced its very gene' ral use, in preference to any other of the usual articles of food ; it is, however, much questioned whether wheat is nourishing and proper food for the working horse, certainly it is not for cows or pigs. Mr. Thorley's Food, besides possessing the advantage of greatly invigorating the health and increasing the physical power of all animals, is a tonic and gentle stimulant, and when mixed with their other food, materially assists their digestive powers —a matter of great consequence, since it is an undoubted fact that the nourishment contained in their ordinary food is lost, conse quent upon the impaired or defective action of the digestive organs ; it will also be found to be particularly beneficial in restoring to good working condition horses Which have been over-worked, or become weak from disease, or are naturally of a feeble constitution. In cows its effects are undoubted, indeed almost marvellous, nearly doubling the yield of milk and butter, whilst it at the same time enriches the quality of both. In pigs its fattening qualities are still more remarkable, displaying in a few weeks its manifest superiority over every other kind of compound or amnia factured food adopted in the feeding of swine. Such has been its marked success, that at all our great cattle shows, Royalty, noblemen, and others who have fed th e i r c attle on Thorley's Food, invariably carried off the principal prizes, whilst cards of commendation have been awarded. The patronage of Royalty, of our principal nobility, the clergy, and of - our leading agriculturists, mist prove great incitement to this gentleman to pursue his onward course; and he ' may confidently rely, in producing se highly-favoured a compound, on a continuation of such higb and 'sistinguished patronage. BIRTHS. INGESTRE.—On the Ist inst., at • 17, Eccleston-squaret Viscountess Ingestre, of a daughter. KIRWOOD.—On the 30th ult., the wife of the Rev. G. i• Kirwood, M.A., vicar of St. Martin's, Hereford, of a daughter. SOMERSET.—On the 31st ult., at Southsea, the wife of Col. Edward Somerset, C. 8., of a son. Wicns.—On the 30th ult., at Brackley Lodge, Walton-on - Thames, the wife of John Wicks, of a son. MARRIAGES. BLACKWELL—STEVENS.—On the 30th ult., at St. Pancras New Church, Thomas Francis, eldest son of Thomas Blackwell, Esq., o f Harrow Weald, and Soho-square/ to Emily Elizabeth, youngest daughter of the late 'Win' Stevens, Esq., of the Old Jewry. SMITH—KEELEY.—On Monday, the Ist inst., by the Ito:. J. C. M. Belle w , S.C.L., Albert Smith, sq., of Nor 0". End Lodge, Walham G reen, to M ary, el d est daughter of Robert Keeley, Esq. DEATHS. ACTON.-0a the 31st ult., at Buxton, Derbyshire, Mr. 0 W. Acton, of 72, Sh oe -lane, Holborn, and Efra-road, Brixton. 'BoscA.wmi.—On the 30th ult., at the Grove, near Seven' oaks, Catharine Elizabeth, widow of the Hon. and Ite /r. J. E. Boscawen, Esq., aged 69. CLARXE.—On the 31st ult., at Wolverhamp Recorder Nathaniel Richard Clarke, Esq., S ergean t- a t-L aw , 0 Lincoln, &c., aged 75. GAMBLE.—Ort the Ist inst., at 19, Upper Hamilton-ter race, St. John' s - woo d , J ohn R. Gamble, Esq., aged 84; PETERS.—On the 30th u lt ., M r. J ohn Peters, of Wes". hill, Wandsworth, and Sloane-square, Chelsea. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOTTO tI ' of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The S ue Offi ce , No. 11 ' 4i, ' Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, In the count" Lliddlesex, Tuesday, August 2,18,59.