The Sun. — London, England, 1802-05-14 00:00:00

F. N UMBER 301'1 -....._____ I NPERI/IL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS, THURSDAY, MAY 13. t 4 , 71 " some preliminary business of an unimportant na-' 111.- wa s disposed of, the Order of the Day, tor taking into el:4lsideration the Definitive Treaty of Peace, being jead, tiorISTANHOPE rose, and - made some general iserva . - 112 on the subject, in the course . of which, he expressed his °tPinion, that the Treaty ought to be . taken into considera .iiTtn,.; an d adverted to a circumstance which took place in the Con-rv3l between the Signing of the Preliminaries and - the , tri e „Ausica of the Definitive Treaty, namely, the appoint or' of the First Consul of France to the nrst Magistracy thtfle_ltaim. n Republic, and se,-Med , to think,.that in rcality,, i4 e cir .cumstance made but very little addition to the French co „ . rin Italy. He, however, .had some important !a . Ct_s tot t. dis,'lnlunicate to the House relative to the pending subject 0 tis sion, which he wished to communicate to their Lord *" S alon e • he, therefor • moved the Order for the exclusion, e. t i t , - 1 2- h ,e rd M e r r l s Of MOIR adve:ted to the,great and general pu tVt`eterest of the pendic.g discussion. and expressed his hope, for etti t he Noble Earl was- not determined to have the order en- I ll i t rl St AN w oPE replied.' in efireC7, : that he ma d e up .his oft /c 1 upon the point, acid was confident as to the propriety proceeding he suggested. T"e i ,ne strangers were, in consequence, ordered to withdraw. 1,, exclusion took place about an hour, when . the d oors ere opened. On our admission We fOuncl • Lord G RENVILLE speaking.—His Lordship, In th e course of a d elldeliv ered vet y able, argumentative, and h ' hour s speec, which Occupied nearly three 4t ßl an hall, deli vere d hi s sent i ments upon ' the I very important stibjed under consideration, Our s k est et riQe d limits co n fi ne u s. to a very brief and ge ner al fro ell of his L or d s hi p ' s speech, a4ll preclude_ trn tou ching - upon any but a few of his leading c : int s. He set out with she Wing that he "should I, ° , l) , ° se a declaration on' the part of their Lordships eF 'le most decisive language, that the provisions ti, t he Treaty ought . .to be kept inviolate - by 'this . N" i ' t rY—it was not in - his. intention to pro liatise any thing tending to censure those who t 6 - framed the Treaty.—His intention was 11.1 ex hibit to the view o f t h e i r L or d s hi ps and tv,, P uklie the r e a l situation in whichs the Country a t i: Placed by. the Treaty . under consideration—He ti,i; l ert ed to the -principle' s on which, consiste nt ly I\l, l t he maxims of Wise and enlightened p o li c y, I, l l ci tiation s s h ou ld P rocee d , b ut w hi ch unhappily and .e pre sent instan6e had not been attended to, t}l s ome degree were' reversed- 7 ln,theopinio n . o f tti a t f i at e Lord ChathaM; the Preliminaries should lie pl c ri e Is definitive as possible, 'but here tha t p r i nc i_ I v , -4 1 nor p reva il . ; many grelt leading poi n t s re ferred for discussion in the Definitive Nego ttl,-,'". The interval was prod u Etive of such cir q as not Only - should excite th e v i g il ance l i r ' is ters, and ind u c e them t o ren d er t h e Defini ter .tirdavourAble to ,thiS Country' h gTreaty, but obliged them to keep t re ' t er force in the West Indies, even double kte u nu i t u ber of ships which i t w as necessar y to turhd tli er.e :it any p , .riod of the War. He cen the policy which induced Ministers to able s uch circumstance to takeplace. Consider kwstress seemed to be laid on . the tone and temper tia„. ife &ted by France in the conduEl of the Nego_ ara'"i but the experience of the last six . months, Ole 4 i 'v iew of her measures at this. moment, when t '%ci,,,; s i as far as she can, endeavouring to how""e li its from th e ' commerce o f , E urope , s p ew a t tle reliance should be, placed on them.—His 4 1Di z m o s f i ' l t P lie then ref er r e d t o some o f t h e leading t 0.., Negotiation, and observed upon them in DandifFering but .little from whit he had T a . d.:" te , ,, ce d ill his former.speech upon the subja . :t.—W ith tlit r y to the situation .of Portugal—lhe indern pti,to, the Prince of Orange, which seemed ....th'P"ily to rest upon the good faith of France h e' e f ces sion of the Cape, which, he argued, would ttit c) t, t he molt injurious tendency in respea to ex ln e lndian commerce, particularly the latter, to Patiated on somewhat at length.. With resped / 2 0 ta l l e e l surrender of Malta, and the arrangements . 11 ) ( 4', lot its ftiture gOvernment, he argued more r4itt'l, c onsidering it as eventually given up to t in t) , e ; and entered into a variety of calcula- Tahi' ri,lostly drawn from documents upon the I v6, lli ' e that t h e present revenues of the Island .posed 'II infinitely short tf maintaining ,the pro- - respe establishment.,: He then adverted' to the kilt:live stipulations in -regard to the inhabi, kenc the ceded Colonies, and contended that the . .tver ef ' took due care of .the interests of 'thoS* whO i tter "l nerly. Und er their dominion, when a due h 3' u w s t " to the same obje& was not manifested t une r : --- lie censured thatstipulation respedingPri, t , }l War, t)y which we were ma d e to pay f o r N er t l ui l"nent of a corps of Russian troops, who '44t,, lnte need by the Enemy to:aft aga , inst us. The t he 7r Y Provisi ons o f the Treaty of Utrecht against . I, V t : t ggrandiseinent of F iance i n A m e r i ca an d - t h e vialnclies, and f or the security of our Commerce Ifat 5y its (Natter, were, h e said, in effea, done away non,renewal. However, that omission did nliis'Ply renueciation of rights on our part. he, applied to the Gum Trade, 4 sh ould also find ourselves deprived of. an te 'ut'woo'd Trade, he argued', would be in the l'3w er Predica ment. After noticing the .recession of to filch Fra nce h ad accuired in Italy, he passed tl 'e t Nel unf4v(Jurable tendency which' the cessions t° in Fra nce byl_the T reaty, must b e r of to this mutry Ob sery a commercial vieW ; and many of those, t. 'ar " 1 7 were valuable stations in. time of e which, once relinquished, must . „, if at all, 11 11 1 4 i : tIr o e „ h ci a s s , e ..i d w a? the. dearest rate.—A great par? of " r arg ument resneaed the important th e Cts 01 tile Sove'reignty of Great Britain in India, rc of _ of that uarter, and the Navigation 1/4111et q. seas with resped to these, which 1 7a e en Pro • or ,„ 31 a n d _ . l- riy adverted to in the Treaty of i t `uthr ne : 114 I nanner upon which he passed a, degree not so on nd also in the Convention of 1 787, uch signify what ; - We thought of them, as what Holland and France thought of them —and what they may , di) in these respests. With regard to the • sovereignty : of India, he recom mended, that speedy steps should be taken in the way of amicable' negotiation, to learn the intention of France on that point, and to adjUit What may he Matter of dispute ; the importance of which he sheyi , cd as well by statement of faas and financial Calcula titins, as by a variety of arguments. He contended, that ,by the cessions of M ait,i, Minorca, deal the Isle of Elba, we had excluded ourselves froni.theMedi rerranean, leaving the French masters of the:-LeVarit Trade, and at liberty to renew their designs upon Egypt. He also adverted to the consequences',Of the accession of Louisiana to France; . and 'the vir - tual,' if not aCtual, possession of Florida: I Fla.ving touched upon these various topics,..and tcd upon them, more or less at . length,' he seemed 'to express his opinion, that he was the decided advo cate of an economical systern, and pointed out how several of the arrangements which bad 'been Made. were unfavourable thereto, of 'the propriety of keeping a Peace Establishment on foot commensurateto the peculiar situation in,which the late Peace had placed this Counrty ; and after adverting to a nurnii - !r of collateral paints col - met - led with the sirbieel under discussion, he, concluded by moving an Address to His Maje3ty,'Similar in effe;:t to that moved in the House of COMmons, and to which we refer. The Address tieing read by the Lord ChandellOr, and the Question put, 'l).•uke of NORFOLK rose to 'express ;pis 'dew cided 'oppoSition to the Address, and . disapproba tion of the 'tendency of Many of the, argunients which 'fell 'froM the Noble Lord ; as au indiVidnal Peer; he sincerely thanked those who brought the blessings Of:Peace to the Country, and which he seemed to think was, in a great degree to be ,attri. buted to, the 'removal' of the sate Ministers from His Majesty's Councils. - -=—He urged ,their Lot dships not 'to countenance the proposed Address, which would otherwise create the most unfavourable ef_ Peas throughout the Country it wls, •in faCt, calling' upon them to go Co, War again, and telling_ France,• with whom we • hthd concluded' a' solemn Treaty of Peace and Amity, that we M e a nt to dis cuss every point therein Which was left to future arrangement, in 'a' way 'little short -of having drawn swords in our hands. He did expea to hear of some great and material difference between the Pre limivaries and the Definitive Treaty, but such was not the case. It was. not with a reference to the' way in Which icirmer Treaties, were settred, or the opinion of statesmen in fornier times, who.aaed under circumstances very different from the present, that-the Tieaty befors.,, them was to be ctys4ero, All the circumstances of the case should 'be looked at, and we shoUld judge.of the merits of the Treaty with reference to those. He expressed his hope that we should not go' to war again for particular stations in the Mediterranean, Or for such small spots as the Isle of Elba, &e. Under thtSe• im pressions be would move as an Amendment, that' ail the words in the Address, after humbly advise," should be left Out. On this Amendment the Ques tion being put, - Lord PE-1.1-1 Altl rose, and in LA able and argu_ rnentative speech of some length;observed . upon the material points of . the Noble Lord's 'speech who moved the Address ; he aid not feel it necessary to follow . . the Nobl e . Lord through the wide fielrof argument into which he had entered, as deem ing many of the points irrelevant to the real ques tion before the House.—his Lordship glanced at the Mode in which the discussion had been introduced, and seemed to 'express a degree of surprise at the nature of the Motion now brought forward by the Noble Lord, as different frOni what he had reason to expert : from what had' passed, his anxiety was greater than ever that a speedy decision should take place, as, in, the opinion of the Noble Lord, the question, of Peace or War wa s i n a manner st ill 'pending4. He wished not to misrepresent the Noble Lord, hut he understood him to say, that the MotiOn . was necessary, in order that the people might feel that the present was a Peace only' in. name. A vein of-disapprobation of the Peace was apparent thrOtighont the whole Address, and from- the Noble Lord's speech he colleCted his opinion to he in one point of view, against concluding' any Treaties at all, .and in another, the mode of Negotiation was , the subje& of his censure. For his part, he thought the true Question was, How far the . Definitive Treaty was, or was not, agreeable to the prin ciple Of the Preliminaries ; but in the course of the discussiOn, he considered the Noble Lord as avow ing himself an enemy to the Peace. Lord GREAT r LLE, rose, he observed, toset the Noble Secretaty of State right. He had not utter.. ed a single word upon which such a construCtion could be put. The Address exhibited a direftly contrary opinion k it spoke of the conclusion of the Peace, and also of the tranquillity which was established. Lord PELHAM proceeded, and obserVek that .the Noble Lord had certainly attired upon the Com mercial disadvantages which.the Peace had brought about, and asserted the adimaages in those respects which France would gain thereby ; this ? he thought; was arguing against the . Peace. However, ifhe misunderstood the Noble Lord, he Was sorry for it. One ; principle pervaded the Noble Lord's argu ment, which he thought highly unjustifi a bl e , name ly; the as . snmption that whatever we ceded to other , countries ; was hi faCl given up to France, and on that hypothesis, much of his reasoning was founded ; and he censured the man ner in which the supposed dispositions of • our late adversaries vas alluded to in the A'ddress. He Made a variety of observations. with resped to the. Cape and Malta, and drew conclusions with reset to their relative importa - nee, and the consequences-of' P'; . 11 1 1) : -;1 1 • y - S ~i ~~ h!I~14~ 7/ J/ % iit i il~ 1 il~ FRIDAY, 1 1 \1;1- 14, 1802. - - their cession, ',different • from those urged by the 'NOble Lord, and to shew that the guaranteeing POWerS'had a stroF.g interest in the indep en den c e of Malta.' He then passed to the situation of Portugal, in which he - contended, that whatever unfaVoinable Viretimstances appeared, it wad owing to una . voliblde circumstances ; he•hOweVer, denied, the cessions, to. he of that importance which the 'Noble 'Lord argued, and the Withdrawing' the 'British TrOops was - a wise "inezitire in the' then state 'of affitirs, and was prodnetive of the hap , piest consequences. With respiea :to the Prince of Orange, he 'aclmitted; he deserved the highest tentiori :float 'this 'Country,; the most strenuous 'exertions were made in hilliehalf; and' with respect icillat'lA;as Said of his 'expteigions'Of regret Onties6 occasions, these: PrineipalfY referred to the Map-, pointment of . theii•rith being able to Testore•hini to the Stadtholderate ; but, 'he'oberVed; that, the. War ‘s,''as first undertaken by this Country . itydefeli6e of the dominions. of that Prince'. With resne6t to the differences whielihad 'taken - place' the inte'r'val betweercsigning the PreliMinaries and the cdnclusiort . of the Definitive Treaty, 'it was deemed not to he, upon a fair - ballance of the interests' of both Countries, a ,stifAcleUt ground for brs!aking Off the Negotiation flind he - Observed upon what was lately Said, that the proCeedings with respeCt to Italy; Were more a nominal than a teal accession'of power to p'r'ance. He entertained not theSe appre hensions With resped to what - the Noble Lord called the elduals of France ; at the same time'he was -satis fied with his assertions of • Our incontrov=ertible rights to. the Sovereignty inlndia .; and with re-i sped to the LogwoOd and the Honduras -Trade, Le thought - our right s n o t in the least, impaired by the recent. Treaty ; he held the same nion with rc-spe& to the Gum Trade: D'raWing to a conclusion, he made.some general observations on the nature and tendency of the Noble Lord's argil_ mentsias well as the particular:narure of the proposed Ad dress. He felt'it his . duty to . oppose the 4'n of the greater part of it, and he should, as - We Understood his Lord Ship, after the N06,1e - Duke's z, , \!bencliiient was disposed of, move for the intrd dna ion of what would- bein effect a Counter Ad, N ess. This his 'Lordship read, and it appeared to be similar in substance and'tendency to the Counter Adress proposectin the . cominons by Lord HaWkes bury, (for which See the proceedings of that "House. Lord MULGR AVE took an extensive review of the arguments of the Noble Lord who had made the Moticm; which he - admitted that 'he the terms of the Peace had been more fa_ vourable to this Country ; but while he expressed this Wish, "he could, not agree with that 'Noble Lord in any one of the'views which he took of the terms of the Treaty. His Lordship contended that the arrangement with resped to Malta was per fedly satisfadory, inasmuch as the Troops Which were to garrison it, belonging to the guaranteeing Powers, 'lverd not sufficiently numerous to put the place entirely at the disposal of that Power, but sufficient, with the assistance of the Knights and the nhabitants, to defend it against any-external force' that cauldbe brought against it. With resped to the cession Of, the Isle of Elba, he thought that of no consequence, as it was a place that could at any time be reduced by a competent force: His Lord ship then touched upon the other topics that had been urged against the Treaty:, which he answered with great ability, and Concluded:by expressing his approbation of the prOpoSed Amendment of the NO. ble Secretary of State. Lord AUCKLAND said, it had been his inten , tion to take up a considerable share of the attention of the House, as there were some points which he thoUght. it material to have very fully explained:; but their Lordships had already heard so much upon the general subjeCtof discussion, that he should now confine himself more than he intended. He should more particularly touch upon the most extraordinary &thine which 4il been advanced u 1 on this occa. sign, that the noh-renewal of former Treaties af feded therights of this Country, - and more particu larly in. India. The position was unquestionably in dire& opposition to the Limi of Nation's, and to every established principle of common justice. The right of sovereignty of this Country' in India, was touched, indeed, by the, loose and 'improvident wording of the 13th Article of the Treaty of 1783, in consequence of which the French, attempted to' make innovations, , in our Settlements, in that Country. This was resisted by, our Government and 'colanel Cathcart, an officer. of distinguished merit ; and who, had he been ispa'red, would have' proved an honour to his Country, was sent to make an arrangement with the French Government.—A Convention was entered into by these two per sons, but so obnoxiotis at home, from our tight 'of Sovereignty not being properly' reCognized i that he. (Lord!Autxt:ANo) who was ',then residing in a diplomatic capacity at Paris, had positive instruc tions from our Ministers here to disavow it in tow. A Negotiation was then begun upon this important subject, which lasted for near a twelvemonth, when he, by direEtions from home d wrote a letter to the French IViiriister i an extra from which'lle' would read" ; couched in pretty strong terms of peremptory assertion with resped to the exclusiVe right of sovereignty, which produced the signature : of the Treaty of 1787 in less than three weeks from its date.. [His Lordship here read the Ex tradj Though that 'Treaty was not renewed,- his Lordship contended that the principle" had been sufficiently !acknowledged and aded upon by France, to establish the unquestioned* right' of Sovereignty 'of this Country in the Indian Seas,- and in the Pro- vinces conquered ,by the British arms. .With re_ sped to Commercial Treaties, he said, it was per reOly competent to this Country and France to enter into such treatieso but that which he had the [PRICE F,IPEN,CE; honour to be concerned in negotiating, was only, a. .a :Treaty of experiment; and .as streli was to laS v s ' only for six years, so that it Intd expired bCfote the commencement of the late War., His Lordship sari ; he would not .take up their .Loialshii)s' tiaie by entering.into the other subjeciS of debate, wfilcit had already-been answered by sortie of :his Noble Friends, but 'content himself V;-ith declaring- :lii • k , ,- approbation of the ame n d ment o f hi s INjohle I riend the Secretary of State. . . . . The -Earl of CARNARvdAT eXpressed his disap_ probation 'Of the' Definitive Treaty; from its taking no notice of former Treaties between, this Country and France, and" particularly pressed the Noble Sc.. 'cretary of State. to declare whether such renewal. had not been •required,bY our Ministets, but reftised by France.: The earl of W EST lIIQRL.ANDi: fn -0 very long speech, entered 'inlet a - minute di - scussiori of every part of the Definitive Treaty, which he vindicated from the adVerse construaions of the Noble Lord who had introduced the 'Motion. „Lords DAR NLEY-and EeLtoluotiOuOrt rose toge.: ther, and the former caught the Lord Chancellor's eye,_:but the House calling on the latter, the L or d . • Chancellor saido, that in stria point OF order the . Noble_ Eari . had an undoubted right to be' heard .id referenee,7but 7 he believed it was not unusual upon these occasions .. . ‘ fe,r . their Lordships to' st ew t h e i r '' indula . ence to a young - Meipberof thei r . House. LordD_A RNIE . T- gave way. ' ' : - Lord ELLEN BQROUGH ..ose. He said, he obtxuded - himsell with great diffiden . ce upon their Lordships' notice, new as he was to, that - House, lint he felt an irresistible. impulse of duty to expreea . his gratitude as an individual to 'those .Ministers who had been the means of raising the honour of the Country, and procuring it at the same time the. blessings of Peace. He was - desirous likewise of refuting theaopinion that the renewal of old Trea.. ties was of any use ,to this Country. . Those Trea tics' indeed .:were'-iiomore than wa ste p aper , - since they no longer applied .to . the. aftual situation and circumstances of the , world, and if they had .been renewed, it I,vouldhave.been.absolutely neces.; sary to have excepted, by specific regulations, every Article in them, as they ;would .etther have been nugatory oriiijurious. Hehad read'those Treaties with considerable attention—they : -were out of the usual course of his industry, . but ht preferred the general and` acknowledged' principles of ,the general Law of Nations, as less liable to miseonstruaion and abstract reas o ni ng . But the Noble Lord whys had bryught. fo rw a r d ' t hi s di scuss i on ' with such se.. were 'terms of repHletion- of the Definitive Treaty, had forgot that he was not always the strenuous advocate for the renewal of Treaties; for it will be found. from th& instruetions to our Negotiator at Lisle, in the drawing up of which his Lordship, he should suppose, must have had no inconsiderable share, and a copy of which was ac tually upon their LordshipS' Table, that in that Ne-: gotiation There was a particular injunaioti against the renewal of certain. stipulations of .the Treaty , . or:Utrecht. OUr Sovereignty. in India, upon the violation of which by the non-renewal of Treaties so much stress had .been laid, his Lordship said; he thanked Gad. depended upon surer end stronger ties than-all the that ever were made could giver it de — pended upon the right of Conquest in at legitimate War, a War of Defence, upon. the public. and repeated recognit',.ln of all the Powers of Europe, conneEted with commerce, and upon the established right of possession, the bdst right of all. Our 50... vereigntyin India is now upwards of forty years induration, and is older than any existing Go. vernment in India. It could not be strengthen, - ed 'by all the Treaties tha't could be devised, and the Power that could meditate to dispute that title, must be so divested of all justice and moderation, that she would not be the more bound by any Marie§ that could be devised,or entered into, His'- Lordship argued this point very much . at lengthy . and placed it' in a very clear and luminous point of view. He next 'adverted to Malta,,. and insisted ' that the. arrangement with respet. to. that Island, • was wise and prudent in the highest degree. He, contended' thtrt the Order was not in such 4' - state of poverty as the Noble Lord had represented it.---; , _ The Cape of Good Hope, the cession of which was so much:detilored,.' he thought we were well rid of. 'He Would tell the Noble Lord; that' the 'expence of that .post would have been so great, that the Country would very soon have had reason to complain of its retention.---fie would tell him that we could ,not send a chaldron of coals thither - without the expence of , z 61., tos. andit was a well known faa, that at the time the autch 'were. • sending home, during our scarcity, a small supply of grain to this Cortry; the Goverpment there was . .obliged to send ships so India, to get rice and °thee provisions, and. an urgent request came home fora supply of biscuit, not for the Troops only, but even for the botch themselves. It had been urged by the Noble Lord, thato deprived of the Cape, our* Fleets. must be employed in convoying our - Tradd and our Troops to India ; but can. it be 'forgotten that in the War lyefore the last we had France, Spain,' and Holland against us, with' a Fleet more equal in power than what they now cad boast of?---With respea to -the idle cOrripliment of the Dutch striking their flag to us, he thought there ulas not much magnanimity . ,in enforcing that froM the weaker Power, which vt.c did not fequire from the stronger. Of Portugal much had been said, hut lie believed,thal that Country was truly, thank ful for whif we had_done for it in' the definitive arrangment for Peace.—ne then entered into a very' animated strain of panegvric on the present Minister's, who had accepted their situations under' circumstances of peuliar gloom and depressiory from. t • - ' A l 3 14 • k -------1)- •A' \ - e‘ , Hp,-42- 4 p - .. 1=%4(1, - _ /.. /./.q. •, - - . l\v 1--4,...{ -' i ' ,--(,----,..* ..- J.. -'•-- 1. • vvr..t ~.. . o i , 1,1*,.::._,•‘-':*o - <-,-;,,: - 1. ) .1 .- (t i l - 4 - 'N \ .'• , .