The Sun. — London, England, 1807-03-03 00:00:00

appointed to take intoeonsideration the Petition com plaining of an undue return for the Borough of Malmsbury, ;that the sitting Members •were duly elected ; and that the said Petition was neither fri volous.nonvexatious. • ROCHESTER. NIr.,BLAcKauRN reported from the Committee appointed to take-irta...,consicleration...the-Petition_ complaining .of an undne Return for the Borough of Rochester, that The sitting Member was duly elea ed, and that the said Petition was neither' frivolous nor vexatious. A person From the Office of the Paymaster-Gene ral of the Forces, presented an Account of the Eu-. peaces of ClOthity'r the Royal Veteran Battalions, from the Ist of'August 1804 to the Ist or February! . ipto7.—Ordered to lie on the table. . KEP.RINI4ND. Walter Jewry was called to the Bar, in order to . he reprimanded and discharged. The Speaker ad dressed him nearly as follows " Walter Jewry—The Selea Committee ap pointed to consider the Petition complaining of an undue Return for the Borough of Maidstone, have reported -that you, being called as a Witness before , them, did very ri.uch misbehave yourself; that you I did grossly prevaricate, and refuse to give evidence. In consequence, you were ordered Into custody by the said Committee ;- and afterwards, this House thought proper to commit you to Newgate. The }louse- of commons is a tribunal which will not.en dure its dignity to be insulted, or its authority to he called in question. Sworn to speak the truth, al though admonished of the solemn obligation which 'you had incurred, yoii thought fit to persist, till it became manifest that your obstinacy was wilful and criminal ; you were consequently sentenced' to btr . imprisoned,, malefaCtors and felons. You hare since presented'. a -.Petition, in which you e:tpresS some degree of contrition. The ends of Public Jus tice bring answered, it remains for you, by a sacred regard to veracity during the remainder of your life, to redeem yourself, as far as you can, from the dis grace into which you have fallen. This House has ordered you to be discharged, and you are hereby discharged accordingly." On the Motion of Mr. FULLER, the above Ad dress was ordered to be entered on the Journals. MESSAGE FROM HIS MAIESTY. Lord Howlex presented a Message from the King, which was read by the Speaker, and which was as follows : G. R. g$ His MAJISTY thinks proper to acquaint the House of Commons, that a Treaty of Peace has been concluded be tween His MAJESTY and the KING of PRUSSIA ; a Copy of which, as soon as the Ratifications have been exchanged, shall be communicated to • the House; and His MAJESTY also thinks fit further to apprise the House, that His Ma jesty's Minister, by whom the Treaty was signed, in conse. quence of authority from His MAJESTY, and the urgency of affairs on the Continent, has taken on himself to advance to the Prussian Government a sum of money 'amounting to about 80,0001. which advance His MAJESTY has been pleas ed to approve ; and His ,MAJESTY trusts that the House will enable him to snake good the same.•' On the MOtion of Lord HOWICK, his Majesty's Message was ordered to be referred . to the Commit tee of Supply. A new Writ was ordered for the Borough of Har wich, in the room of Mr. Freemantle, who, having been returned for Harwich and Saltash, had made his election to serve for the latter place. ABSENTEES. The Order of the Day having been read, calling over the names of those Members who were absent from the Ballot on Friday last, On the Motion of Lord HOWICK, the names of the defaulters were so called over by the Speaker, which occupied nearly two hours. Several Mem tiers were excused, and the remainder were or o .:ercd to attend in their places ; the greater part of them to-morrow, some to-morrow se'nnight, a few to morrow fortnight, and the rest to-worrow three. weeks. It was stated by • Colonel BARRY, Sir HORACE MANN, Sir . GEORGE HEATHCOTE, and General LOFTUS, that several of the Irish Members were at tending the Assizes in their own Counties, where their presence-was indispensably necessary, and that it would be impraelicable for tt:em••to return within three weeks, which was the time allotted them for that purpose. Lord Howicx, however, contended, and was supported in that opinion by the Speaker, that the parliamentary duty of thoie Members ought to be pararnouat in their minds to every other consi ., Aeration. SLAVE. TRADE. On the Motion of Lord HowicK, it was resolved, that the House should to-morrow torn itself into a Committee, to consider of allowing a Bounty to the Officers and Seamen of his Majesty's ships for any Slaves captured by them in the Enemy's Vessels. On the Motion of Lord HOWICK, a variety of Papers were ordered to be laid before the House, communicating the Monthly Returns of the State of his Majesty's Forces, from the is: of January, 1204, to the Ist of March, 1807 . ; the number of rank and tile in 1804, 1803, 1806, distinguishing Cavalry from Infantry; as also the augmentations that had been made in those periods; the Returns of the Number of Men raised for the Regular Army, from the Ist of January, 1804, to the Ist of January, 1807, distinguishing those raised by the Additional Force Ad from those raised by the regular Recruit ing, &c. THE LOAN. Lord HENRY PETTY gave notice, that as the Loan would be contraeled for to-morrow, it was his inten tion, in the Committee of Ways and Means to morrow evening, to propose the usual Resolutions on that subject ; and he would also recapitulate - his different items relative to the Ways and Means and 'the Supply. He likewise gave notice, that in the Committee of Supply on Wednesday he would move a Resolution to grant to his Majesty the sum of 80,0001. to make good the advance to Prussia, stated iu,the Message from the King which his Noble, Friend had that evening presented. At a subsFquent part of the evening, however, Lord HENRY PETTY observing that it had escaped him that Tuesday was not the regular evening for the Committee of Ways and Means, gave notice, that ;he would_ move the Resolutions relative to the Loan, and make his recapitulation in the Committee of Ways and Means on Wednesday. Bourn .ayo TOM o-tnorrow 23d .of April, baring been resumed, a short conver sation ensued, *bich terminated in leave being granted. wESTMINsTER ELECTION. Lord FOLKSTONE inoyed that the Order of the Day be read for takiiig into consideration the Peti tion relative to the Westminster Eletition-hen MC. &Mal 1)-A begged to , say a few-words t-- ters of privilege, it was not unusual to order strait gers to withdraw. lie deprecated such an order most strongly in the present instance, and addressed him self particularly to one Hon. Member, earnestly re questing that the investigation might be as open as possible. Mr. PETER MOORE stated, that several Gen tlemen whose fortune, eharatiler, and reputation, were most deeply implicated in the Petition present ed last week, relative to the Westminster Election, and who were extremely desirous of rescuing them selves from the foul calumny that had been cast upon them, had applied to him to present thei,- Petitions to that effed to the House, to which request he bad acceded. A Petition, similar to that which lie had mentioned, bad been presented, and afterwards - withdrawn, which was stated to be the Petition of the Inhabitants of St. Martin's le Grand. A re spe6lable body of those . Inhabitants were now in attendance about the House, anxious to exonerate themselves from the charge of gross disresped, to which they would otherwise be liable, by - declaring at the Bar that they were wholly ignorant of the in tention of presenting any such Petition. He re quested leave to bring.up these several Petitions. ''he SPEAKER observed, that the question be fore the House was; that the Order of the Day be read. At the same time it was competent to the Hon. Member, if the reasons he assigned were suffi cient, to present any Petitions which bore upon the subject that was on the point of being brought for ward. After a few words from Lord FOLKSTONE and Mr. P. MoORE, it was agreed that Lord For.x.- STONE'S Motion for reading the Order of the Day should he withdrawn, for the purpose of . allowing the Petitions to be first presented, Mr. P. MooRE then presented a Petition from Henry Burgess, which stated, that a Petition had been presented to the House, signed James Paull, charging the Petitioner with divers - crimes against the Privilege of the House; that the Petitioner begged leave to confront the evidence that was to be adduced to prove this charge, as he had strong reason to be lieve that a system of perjury had been established, and was still persevered in, in order to deprive the Right Hon. R. B. Sheridan of his seat in that House. Mr. P. MOORE moved, that the Petition do lie on the table. Lord FOLKSTOIVE,• although he would not op pose the Motion, obseived, that the prayer of Mr. Paull's Petition was to be allowed to confirm his al legations by evidence; but that Mr. Burgess consi dered those allegations as already confirmed. _ _ . Mr. SHERII)4N was convinced that the Noble Lord did not mean any thing unfair or dishonourable, and that therefore he could pot mean to summon witnesses against him, and deny him the opportunity of refuting their assertions by opposite' testimony. He was aware that many would r that testitut,my, and he cared so little who heard it that he had,pro tested against excluding strangers from the House, though among them might be, and no doubt were, many who would at a future period be'called on for their evidence," Arraigned as he was of having ei ther himself, or by his agents, tampered with wit nesses, it surely could not be intended to deny him the,privilege of disproving the truth of the charge at the Bar. Lord HOWICK thought that the Petition had a just claim to be laid on the table of the House, and that when the proper time came the Petitioner ought to be heard at the Bar in his own defence. Lord' FQLKSTONE disclaimed any 'intention o f preventing _the Right Hon. Gentleman from.calling evidence on his 'own. part. .111r.B1DDULPH observed, that in so grave and so unusual a proceeding, his Noble Friend was en titled to the indulgence of the 'House, acid to the Speaker's advice and assistance. The result of the• inquiry which was about to be instituted' would be to prote& the most valuable rights of the Eledors of Great Britain. 'rhe Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. . . Mr. P. MOoRE presented two other Petitions. The one from James Wallis, stating that the Peti-.- tioner had been charged in the Petition from James Paull with having tampered with witnesses; but' that not having been served with a warrant by the said James Paull to appear to be examined at the Bar of that House, he prayed that he might be exa mined, and that witnesses might be called to the Bar to disprove the allegations , contained in the said Petition. The, other Petition was from Frederick Bowman and Alexander Johnston, and was couch ed in nearly the same terms: Both these Petitions were ordered to lie on the table. _ . Mr. SHERIDAN had really thought that when the Noble Lord opposite had Alloyed tOr the attend ance of witnesses at the bar, he would also have moved tin the attendance of the persons-arraigned. He held in his hand a list of witnesses, for whose at tendance he should move—but he should first ask an Hon. Gentleman why he had not re-presented the Petition stating to ba from the inhabitants of the Parish of St. Martin's le Grand. It was withdrawn, with the understanding that it would be so re-pre sented. There were persons then 'in the Lobby of the House ready:to prove that a more gross fraud never existed. Mr. BIDDULPH denied that then: had been any understanding as to the re-presenting the Petition alluded to. On the contrary, he had specifically stated, that he was under no obligation whatever on the subje&. He bad not re-presented the Petition, because it had never been brought to him. Mr. II 7 III77BREAD confirmed the Hon. Gen. Oman's statement ofhis not having given a pledge on the subje&. Mr. SHERIDAN was glad to find that such was the case. On his Motion it was then ordered, that the foliating Witnesses should attend the considera tion of the Petition complaining of certain proceed ings at the last Deakin for Westminster : Messrs. Paull, Powell, Harris, Dawes, 13utler, Co;e mail, Steel, lughes, Townley, Ward, Graham, Vlallts, IVlight, Cooper, BoY I , T. Sheridan, T. Browne, &c. The Order of the Day having been read for taking into consideration the Petition of J. -Null, Zig, the .ore t - stone move aat 'he card by Meisel, !his Counsel, and Witnesses, hi support of the.alle gat ions of his Petition. Lord HOWICK declared that he had 'formerly expressed his. doubts as to the prppriety of bearing Cenfisel in this case, lest such a.proceeding might frustrate the ends of public justice. He still enter tained doubts ; but, on inquiry, , he had found a pre cedent in the reign of King William, of Counsel basing been heard in support of a charge of tamper ing with witnesses. Feeling a desire that this trans aelion should be so investigated as to satisfy the pub lic, and auxious to remove the slightest pretence for accusing the House of an intention to deprive the Petitiener of the means of supporting his charge, he would be wiling to allow the Counsel to be heard; but he wished the House to observe, that since the passing- of Mr; Grenville's Bill it had been the prac tice to abstain from hearing evidence which might defeat the ends of justice in a subsequent Committee. He trusted the House would confine the examina tion simply to the point of tampering, and that if any question should be proposed affeaing the merits of the Election, the examination would be stopped. He did not see the necessity of allowing the Counsel to plead, because such pleading would only increase the danger it was desirable to avoid. it was true that the Court of King's Bench, when an application was made by one party on the ground that the other was tampering with the evidence, interposed its authori ty ; but the cases were very different. In the Court of King's Bench the case was afterwards referred to a Jury—the House of Commons were themselves to be the Jurors. It behoved the House, therefore, to be very cautious how they allowed the merits of the Election to he anticipated. He moved that the Clerk do read the precedent to which he had alluded. The proceedings in the Wootton Bassett case, ita the reign of King William, were'then read. In that case the parties were allowed the benefit of Counsel' and witnesses. But the Speaker'stated, that at that time EleCtion PetitiOns were tried by the House it self in a Committee. The present proceeding was before the House at large. Mr. GRENVILLE was of opinion that 'the pre sent case' ought to go to a Committee. While - the House looked only to the examination of feels in having the ease proceeded upon at the Bar, a prece dent may be established which may tend to much inconvenience hereafter. He was more inclined than others seemed to be, to doubt the propriety of the House having proceeded .even so far as it had done. The qitestion before the House seemed to him, if not an integral part of that which was reserved by the GrenVille Ael for the decision of a Selea Corri mittee, at least so nearly to border On it, that. it would be impossible to keep the two objeets - distind. - 'He had no doubt that under the Grenville Aa a Com mittee was perfectly competent to do the justice re- . quired in this case, if the fans alleged could be sub stantiated or completely falsified: The Committeis might make a Special Report if either should be found guilty of improper .praaices... If no inconvenience could arise to publicjustice, as he thought none could in this case, the House ought not to interfere with a jurisdiction so nearly conneCted,if not identified,with that which it had, by a . solemn Aet, delegated toits Committee. He did not suppose that the I\lernbers in the House unsworn were a iess ckstroUle iribtiont :1 1(011 d tl] be I than the Members sworn upon a•CoMmittee. But there was no doubt, that a sworn Committee, with its attention direCted to the objects it was to try, was. as eligible a tribunal as the House unsworn. He was so strongly ccnvinced that this was a case that ought to be reserved to a Cominit tee, that he kit an innis pensible duty to:state his opinion to the House, the' he could ,not hope that any opinion of his could have such weight with the House as to lead its de eision. If, notwithstanding the considerations be had thrown out, the House should persevere in the present course, be was of opinion there would be great danger in hearing Counsel. By the interfer— ence of Counsel, it would be rendered next to im possible to keep this case distinct from the question of the late gleaion, which was to be tried by the Committee—a question which the House was by law prohibited from interferino• in. It the, whole matter was not sent to the Committee, the only way the House could reserve that part which be longed exclusively to the Committee, was by keeping .the examination of witnesses in its own hands. An Advocate, who looked only to what was best adapted to his present objed, could never aet up to the delicacy which became the House upon this head, and there would thus he an endless necessity for-the-interposi tion of the House. If, however, the House should agree to hear Counsel, as well as to examine this matter itself; he hoped that it would not be permit ted to such Counsel to attempt to instru& the House with respea` to its privileges ; and that particular care'should be taken to prevent him from int';olViug the two cases, which it was so essential to -keep. distin&. Mr. LEIGH thought the matter of the Petition now before the House, would be a fit subjc6t for the consideration of the House, rather than for a Committee, if it were mere insulated matter of fast, involving only the guilt and punishment of some of the parties. But the case to which the attention of the House was now called, involved the question of the validity of the Westminster Eleetion, which was appointed for trial on the 14th of April. Mr. Paull, the present Petitioner, was the Petitioner in-that case, and possibly the witnesses who were to .be called in - support of_ the present Petition were the very same who were to be produced before.the Committee. If the charges now made were sub stantiated, the Committee would form a prejudice against the right of the sitting Member. If, of the contrary, they were falsified, a prejudice equally hostile would be created against the Petitioner, who would have brought corrupt witnesses to the bar to establish fabrications of so foul a nature. • If any of the witnesses should be guilty of prevarication here, or if the testimony of any should be contradi&ed and falsified, the stigma would accompany them before. the COMmittee, and render their testimony -there suspeaed.—The 'Journals of the House shewed the" awkward shifts that were necessary, when the SafiC-: tionof an oath was wished to the evidence given at the bar. At one time the Justices Of, the Peace of .the Counties were called upon, to administer that oath, at another time it was done by" a:joint Corn . - cnittee of Lords and Commons, and' at other iiriies • 31, Jeggekk,toweVOt, to be 'understood to be most anxi ous that the preSent matter should be particularly inquired into in some shape or another. Mr. PERCIKti L: said, the present case was a new one, being the, first of the kind that had occurred since the Grenville Mt. He agreed with the two last speakers, that it was extremely proper to keep the_prelient inaLter.distind 7 from that which---was to come before the EleCtion Committee. But the House had already pledged itself,' h e was sure not without due consideration, -- to proceed on the present matter itself, for the order for the attendance of the witnesses-, and for the hearing of the parties,_ c‘)Uld be inider;- stood in no other way. He did not deny that a Committee on the .Election was -competent to try the matters now before the .House, so tiir as the party was concerned by himself. and.,his But there was another great. .objed, that, of pre venting and restraining this system of tampering, if such a system did exist. For if such a sySteli) 4 ere allowed to proceed without restraint, no f a i r tr i a l could possibly :be had befdr e the Coannittee 'at the time when it would proceed to the investigaa tion of the matter to be referred to .it. As to the hearing of Counsel, he thought the precedent of the case,read from the Journals ought to be col-t• lowed. The Counsel was then. heard on the whole of the case. If it were matter of privilege, alone that was - before the House, he would be disiiosed to agree that Counsel should not be heard; .but when it was matter of privileie intermixed with the ge, neral case of the Petitiotier, he thought there ought to.be a full hearing on all the case. If, hoiivevcr, a restrietion with respet to privilege was thought de sirable, it would be easy to iiiform the Connsel at the Bar that he was to confine himself to the fauns alledged in the Petition, -and to go into no 1 - batter foreign to then . ). There was no questi o n o f l aw i n the present ease. All that was to be done . was to state fa6ls, and to call evidence to substantiate them. As to any prejudice that may exist, that would be nothing more than the common case of a trial in one Court in Westminster Hall, preceding a-trial between the Same 'parties, and with the sam2 wit nesses, in another. The tribunal in the subsequent case would guard itself against the influence .of the decision in the former. Mr. GRENVILLE explained. Lord H. PETTY, notwithstanding .all that had ,been said by his Right' Hon. Friend (Mr. Grew. , and his Hon. Friend (Mi-. Leigh), Who had spoken with so much credit to himself, thought the House ought to. proceed immediately to the .investi gation of this matter. The House had but a choice of inconveniencies. There was an inconvenience in, proCeeding in the House rather than in a Committee, and there was a further inconvenience in the risk .of-touching any part of what belonged exclusive ly to the Committee. But there -would be a greater inconvenience in deterring, to-a---late• period of the Session, and, perhaps, eventually to the next Session, a matter which involved enarge:l'_of stich rious moment, and related to rnischiets likely to crease and become more fatal ; it th'ir existence, if any they bad; was not timely closed: As to any -prejudice which the result of this investigation may haveon the Comthittee,--- it• would be nothing more than if the investigation n instituted _here should hay tnkNn plito e in a Court of Law previous to the trialby the Committee. On the whole view of tiles case, he thought it itidisdensibleiat hi t s h isie H n o t u t s c e , should proceed tio‘i with tie present iiiatter. Mr. SHERIDAN c ou ld not gi any argument, however well founded, for May, not even to those of his Right Hon. _Friend (Mr. Grenville), hOWever much he respe6ted his talents and his character, from a long and intimate ac quaintance. It was for the .House to judge how tat there was a risque of improperly mixing the mattes of the present investigation with that reserved foe the Cominittee. For himself, he had no hesitation to say, that his present defence would consist in laying open the- whole case 'he would - have to ad duce before the Committee. It - would consist -in shewing that no one of the Witnesses to. be brought forward. accainst him. was worthy of credit. Here these Witnesses would be- examined without being. sworn, but he was sure the-result of this examination would shew, that little credit could be given to their oaths there. He did not t hink this should suggest to his opponents the policy of getting a new set of witnesses for the Committee, and if it should afford them an opportunity to make that pro vision, his obje& was not so much to preserve his seat for Westminster, as that his character should not - be! suffered to remain one hour subject to the:stain of so foul and scandalous a libel as that here pr {erred against him. He was sure there was not on& o'f the Gentlemen who heard him who would suffer charges o f so infamous a nature to hatig over him for six. weeks. Let the witnesses come to the aar,.and if he was perhaps not prepared on every pOint of the infa my of their charaCters, lie hoped the .Hot )1d) dtilge him with time to make inquiry, an d to co ll e ct _use Wi.,)ll_ 111 such farther evidence as he may have occasion- for: Mr. 13Ari-euRsT was entering into some observa tions, tending to shew the most convenient mode of proceeding, but the loud cry of " Question ! Question!" induced him to desist. Mr. BAKER thought the House ought to protect the Witnesses summoned to give evidence at its Bar; and that no Gentleman having a seat in the House ought to speak. of Witnesses about to come to the Bar, in the terms of reprehension as then used Or the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. Mr. WYNNE, after some explanation with Alr. Baker, pointed out the Honiton case, subsequent the Grenville Aft, as the only precedent f or 111 present. The cry o f" Q uest i on ! Q uest i o n >" «a - renewed. The ATTORNEY GENERAL'thjouusg t tice a:Cp: sary to ppose himself a moment to !hi! impatience • - p of iethtyeoHf oauilsoe‘,viinnzortdh7bteonsentigtgoVwtilt'ielesses and Coun• -sel to all - the parties, as well ,as to the one th that s fa 1 0 ' 1 11 , a r v. l , r ou ea l ci t y b ,a e ll:;A a •e vi d te t d o , b t e h o s u ol t - i l e heard : rec t Ittopcl Petitioners 11.4 y Prot have prayed for Counsel, not thinkin: perhapi Alia it was consistent with tke usages- o f the' Heise grant such a prayer. He did not know how 6r. ''his Right kron. Friend may be disposed to waiVe this advantage, but the agents and others be knew rnay be' desirous of it, and 'he hyped the House think them as well entitled u A tls Mr. Paull. . again Ow Chief Justice of the King's Bench was re- Mr. SHERIDAN wklied Inc lionie to go direa ,quired to attend to ;lurminist2r • From ali these lk into the husine:ts. As to Cwnsel, he had no ob oowiderations hg wished to rezerie the whole Case to je;:tiou to give. I] . t. opponents all the Counsel in ti.l orrt Ui