The Sun. — London, England, 1807-04-25 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS, FRIDAY, APRIL 24 Lord MANNERS was introduced by Lords REDES DALE and ELLENOROUGIr. His patent of creation having been read at the table, his Lordship took th e oaths and his seat; as did also the Earl, of EtutoL. A Bill to empower the Summoning:of • Copy holders by Attorney in Customary Courts passed through a Committee. The Loan Interest Bill was read a third time and passed. - Lord Althorpe, Mr. Fawkes; Sir Martin Folk'es; and several other Members of the House of Corn mons, brought up some private BillS; 'which N ' vere • read a first. time. Adjourned till to-morrow (this day).` HOUSE OF-COMAIOATS, FRIDAY, APRIL 24. Sir JOHN' HENDERSON gave notice, that op TUNS day-next he rant to bring forward a proposition for .the better compensation/at the costs of ,111 embers petitioned against ; when-the Petitions• have-been abandoned, and withont'sutlicient notice. Mr. VANsiTTART,-Chairman of the Shrewsbury Committee, 'reported that the said Eketion was void, so far as regarded the Hon. GAILY BENNET, and that the Petitions against Mr. BENNET, and opposition to them, were not- frivOlous or vexatious. On the .I\b,tion of Mr.' Y,‘NSITTAI.ZT, a new Writ was orchtred for the eledion of a Member 11) the ro ,- )in of Mr. BENosET. A Message from the Lords derlared their Lord , ships' Assent to the o.lk Bark Bill, and the Irish Loan Bill. Mr. Meux, from the India House, .presented the Annual.4ecuunts, pursuant to Ad or Parliament. Lord STOPFORD and Mr. WELLESLEY PoLF 3,Vere sworn and took I,ll:tif. Seats. " • - A new Writ was ordered• for the Borough of Newtown, in the Isle of Wight, in the room of. Sir RoBEKT BARCLAY, who had accepted the Chiltern , Hundreds. On the motion of Mr. LONG, the Committee ap pointed'to consider the Petition of the Trustees of the BritiSh Museum, relative to the purehase of the Lansdowne Manuscripts, was impowerd to instruct the Trustees to dispose of .certain articles in the said Collealon; under certain:restriaions. ' Sir P. FRANCIS gave notice that in the . course of the next week he would bring forward a Motion .for any PaperS that may have been received. by the Go vernment or-the Court of DireEters relative to the late transaCtiOns at Vellore. He wished to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it was intended by his• Majesty's Ministers to make any advance by way of loan for the service of the East India Company. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wai not aware that there was any such intention. _ _ Mr. HOBHOUSE brought up the . Report of the Committee for granting an additional Duty of 2s. a Bushel on Salt, used in the making Muriatic Acid, in Scotland. The Resolutions were agreed to. ' Mr. HOBHOUSE brought up the Report of the Parish Apprentice Bill. The Bill was ; ordered to be read a third time on Monday. The Reversion BM went through a Cotilaiittee. The Report to be received on Tuesday.' EDUCATION OF THF POOR Mr. WHITBREAD moved the Order of the Day for the further consideration of the Report of the Paro chial School Bill. He thought right to mention, that the proper time for'stating . any . objeaion to the principle of the Bill would be upon the Speaker's leaving the Chair for the recommitment. The SPEAKER said there would be other ppportu • nities also, on the report and the third reading. Mr. WHIM? EilD described this Bill as wholly distina from the other - parts of the plan he had - the honour of submitting for ameliorating the candttiOn of the Poor. Whether the other parts of the plan should or should nut pass, he looked upon it as es sential that a system of National Education should now be established. The whole plan had been cir culated throughout the country, and had been most attentively considered ever since' the introduction of the plan in February last. He hoped Gentlemen were now prepnred to decide on this most simple and obvious part of it. Mr. A OSPLAT suggested the propriety of suffering the Bills to lie over till the next year, without pas's. , ing them into Acts of Parliament. It would be con sistent with the candour the Hon. Gentleman had hitherto sbewn. in this business, to allow this oppor tunity for further consideration, after the House should have pnt the Bills - in the most perfe4 form: Mr. ROSE complimented the Hun: Gentleman for the attention he had bestowed on' this important public objea. He lamented, however, that the Hon. Gentleman had not been able to find any adequate. mode l of employing the Poor. He said, that in the opportunity this Bill aftbrded of sending the children to school fOr two years, between the' age' of seven and the age of fourteen years, the Poor would send their children at the time when they would be most burthetisome to them, and least capable of edu cation, that is, from seven to nine years, He feared also, that teaching the children to read and write would place them above their condition. He wish ed for schools of industry rather, in which the chil dren may ,be taught useful labour, and in which they may be taught to contribute to their .own maintenance. He wished the Hon. Gentleman had been able to suggest any means of diminishing the public expence on account of the Poor, if that could be done without interfering with their comforts. He had, in a tray on the subjedt, at a former period, re commended the institution of Maritime Schools for the boys, fri - n which they 'may be' taken to sea, in a certain Proportion to tife tonnage. of every ship, a legal provision being made to that died. From 76 to 80,000 boys a year may be provided fOr in this way. He wished by all means an education of dustry rather than an education of learning. I.lr. FUJ,I4 . it recommended th e post ponemmeof the final adoption of this extensive and impoiliant plan till the next S'esson. He ,hoped proision would be made fora religious and moral, as yell as a literary and industrious education. Mr. BOLLER. corimiended:the principle of the Bill, and supported the motion forgoing iLito - t46' 'Com , rnitt4e. Mr. iOSCOI supported the Bill. -It was. edu cation that made the distin&ioa between civilized and savage man. The uneducated man had no re source but. - hjs-bodily powers : when 'these failed him, he sank beneath distress, and n'ot unfrequently became the viOira of depravity. The. man who -had received education, was enabled in a variety of Ways to avoid and to combat distress; and seldom became so far its vidirn as to give way to any thing crimi nal.. In the year t 696, before the institution of na tional education in Scotland, there were upwards of .200,000 peroons begging from door to door in that country. Since the establishment of national edti . cation, inendicity and Poor's Rates • were alike un known in that country: He had no objection to maritime•edUcation as a partial measure, hUt a gene ral system of education was essentially necessary ; anti if the present plan conferred no other benefit,. that alone would be a benefit of the first magnitude to thecountry. Mr. • CACCRAFf was friendly to the principle of the Bill, and was for carrying it into effeet as speedi ly as possible. He thought also that industry ought to be combined with knowledge: It was the ad vantage of the Plan which was called Mr. Lancaster's, but which was really discovered by Dr. Bell,.ReCtor of Swanage, that it afforded; in the rapidity with which it conveyed learning, full time for industry. But, though he was most anxious to have this part of the Plan carried into effect, he feared it would hardly lac.:_reectived with satisfa&ion in the country, unless it should be accompanied with a .relief from some part of the - burthens of the poors' rates,- The exe cution of this measure was, besides, to lie not in the best bauds He allowed the Clergymen of the .Parishes were the finest men to superintend the exe cution of measures of this kind : but the Parish Of ficers were associated with the Clergymen; and, from the little timethese men could devote to their pub •lic.fumaions, abuses would attend the execution of • this Plan, as well is the other duties entrusted to these Officers. On these grounds he wished this part of the - Plan in be postponed till the whole sys tem should. nave passed in the form that Parliament should think proper to give it. Mr. ERSKINE, late. Lord Advocate of Scotland, thought the Bill now before the House of the ..ut most value to the Country, : Education-Was the thing best calculated to increase the comforts; morality, and the happiness of the Poor. The institutions of Public Schools in Scotland was of the remotest an-: tiquity education gaVe industry and care ; and hence it followed that Scotchmen were 'every where . found to thrive better than men of any other corm try. He knew the industry of the Scotch was im puted by some to the poverty of their soil, which, it - was said, compelled them to laboUr . and to be frugal. But it was, in fact, their education ,that made them industrious and careful. Hence the particular taste of the Scotch for horticulture. The gardeners in • England, and partictilarly the best of them, were all Scotchmen. The proviSion:Made for the Poor here was, by the Poor •of Scotland, considered as , a dis grace. In consequence of the education they re ceived, the Poor of Scotland labonred night and day to gain and to save, lest they should come to the disgrace of being a burthen upon their neighbOurs in their, old age. The passing of this , measure would establish the happiness of the Poor upon a lasting basis, and would draw upon that House the 'blessing of God. Mr. DAVI ES GIDDY stated, that when poor rates, were unknown, as not long since they were, iu the part •of the country in which he resided (Wales), the Poor took care. to bring up their chil dren in habits of morality, industry, and religion. Since the Poor'Laws had been introduced, the prat. tice had been reversed. In that part of the country, however, all the men were taught to . read and write, and the women taught to read. He .dOubted Whe ther the education of Scotland would be s o effeet t l a t to the comfort of the'people, if this rich and pop e _ lons Empire did not afford a beneficial field for the exercise of thati knowledge given by that education, and the industry and the thrift for which the Scotch would be so remarkable. If learning were mad e common it would lose its value. To education of religion' and motality he would give his most zea lous support. Mr. SPENCER ST.4IITHOPE did. not think th e • opinion of the country yet fully collected on this: measure. His opinion was, shortly, that the ex- pence of the Plan was certain, and the benefit very uncertain. School-maaters and School-mistresses were very difficult to be got. The value of learning had risen less than any thing 'else in proportion to the depreciation of money; . and, therefore, the nutn bar of persons competent to be School-masters and School-mistress es . was much diminished. lie thenght. that if the School -masters could be got, it was doubt ful Whether, the scholars could: The Poor were anxious to make profit of the labour of their chil dren as soon as possible. He gave the Flonourable 'Gentleman every credit for his praise-worthy exer- - • tions, though he saw these impediments in the way of his Plan. Mr. SHARPE did not see how any of the objecb dons that had been made' affected the principle of the Bill. All of them went to delay, though no good reason was assigned for this delay. He wished to shew the country that the House could suspend its political and party contests in order to join with coalition accord in matters of avowed public utility. The poor children would at all events be educated. The only question was, whether they should be well or ill educated. It was not in the school, nor under, public or private masters alone that education could be 'had. Children, if left alone, would edu ca t e themselves. But be who educated himself ge nerally had a fool for 'his master. He did not think it .possible that education could give sen timents above the condition of the individuals.— Education would give habits of industry and atten tion. He wished for more than two years of, in struaion ; but even in this short period the children, though they should forget all their learning, would have colle6ted many beneficial habits of an nature; habits of submission and respet fir their superiors; habits of cleanliness and exertiN, and fear of punishment. He thought, the measure should be carried into effea without delay. • Lord POI CHESTER thought that there existed a great necessity for the establishment of a National Education. The only way of diminishing , the Pooc Rates was,' to meliorate the moral condition of the people by .education. The plans for col:ls4ring industry with education he'thought chimerical and Any, endeavour to force industry imnra }ica.bl~:. into any prticular channel, would draw it from its proper (4r,6t. • it was his wish;therefure, that .the ,;i0u1(1 go into the Committee. . - Mr. ilosE and Lord PORCHESTER severally ex plained. Mr, ,SlMEONobjeSted to the expence that was to be incurred under the operation of this Bill by an addition of one shilling in the pound upon the poors' rates throughoht the Kingdom. He thought it a benefit that every man s!lould learn to read in order that he might be able to read the Scriptures and imbibe the morals .and do trines contained therein and if Parliament was not to prOmoie such instruc tion they would make themselves responSible for the evil that might be the consequence.—The case of Scotland did not apply, to this Country, because the situation of Scotland, when the Schools were esta blished in 1698, was not to be compared with the present state of this, country. There was a general .diffusion of knowledge over England, for there was not a boy of ten years old that could not read, being taught in threepenny schools, which existed in abundance in every village. He could not see why they•should be taught writing or arithmetic.. The establishment of the Parish Schools was impracti cable ; and if even these schools should be instituted, it would be impossible to obtain scholars on working days, when their parents took' advantage of their 'labour. The — Sunday Schools he was convinced were sufficient for the instruCtion of the lower classes, GEOPGE NSITT ART was of opinion, that the establishment of Parochial Schools in the manner proposed by the Bill was much too expensive. He did not think - it right that the occupiers of lands and hOuses should, be taxed in order that all the children in. the Country . should be taught to read and write, especially when it was doubtful whether Writing would be of any real use.. However, he would vote for the Bill going into a Committee, Mr. 134TL1 wisp, though he Conic:l - not but admit that the prineiple• - of diffusing instruEtiOU 'amongst the lower classes was good, could not say -that be approved of this Bill. He had received a comnati .nication froM the part of the country where he was conneeled, that the whole of the Bill of the Hon, Gentleman was disapproved Of at the Quarter-Sei sions, as extremely burthensome, without any ade quate advantage.—One of his objections to this Bill was, that it tended to give an education to the lower classes above their condition, and comprehended ob jeCts too great for any one measure. The Hon. Mover of the Bill s had not yet made any statement of the present means of educating the lower classes. If his Bill were to pass,.there would be no compul sion to force attendance at the schools, and conse quently the first menace of wholesome discipline would put an end to the attendance of the individual threatened. He also obje&ed to this Bill, because it would do away Sunday Schools, to which no per:- son would subscribe when - the Parochial Schools should be established. Mr. WILBERFORCE gave his cordial assent to .the Motion forgoinginto a•Committee on the Bilk No person was .a greater friend to the diffusion' of instruaion among the people than himself. But he could not help thinking that they should proceed ..with caution in all ena&tnents on this subjea, be :cause this was the. first time that they were called upon to legislate for the improvement of the moral habits, qu:dities, and charaacr of the great mass of the. nation. If by any precipitate proceeding they were to create any prejudice against the measure, they would do injury to their objet. The measure wis susceptible of many improvements,, which it would receive in the Committee, as to combining voluntary contributions with it, or the,introdu6tion of regulations adapted to local circumstances, and the present means of education in the difii!rent parts of the country. There were, howeVer, questicins of detail, and the arguments that had been used were additional reasons for going into the Committee. As far as he had been able to observe the sentiments of the country on the subjea, they were not in ap- . probation of the measure. He had received' repre sentatithis of this description, but they were rather against . any hasty __adoption of the measure, than against it altogether, and did not induce him to sup pose that it might not ultimately be approved of. He therefore hoped that his Hon. Friend; after the Bill should - pass throUgh the Cormuittee, would not .press it in such a .manner as to .excite, any prejudiCe against it in the country. He hoped the• measure 0- would not be confined to the mere mechanical edu cation, but be also extended to the moral improve ment of the objeas of it, and was theretOre of opi nion that the time should.be enlarged; as well as that the system of education: should be complied. with in • Marit ime;Schods. . . Mr. WINDHAM had so many doubts with respect to the Bill itself, that he had no doubt at all that it should stand over till next 'Session. However desirable the object of the Bill might s be, •it could not, after having been unattended to for several hundred years„ be now so pressing as not to admit of a delay of one Session'. - It was a question of ex perience and' local circumstances, and the House stood in need of the assistance and opinions of those without its walls, who . were better qualified to judge of this subje& .than they were. Nothing could chew the'short sightedness of human wisdom, so much as the A& of Clueen'Elizaheth, rounded. in humanity, policy; "and benevolence, which had led to the pre sent state of things, which they all stood aghast in contemplating. As to the great basis of the mea sure, to establish a system of cducatien, and thereby to produce a diminution of the Nor's Rates; he con fessed himself a sceptic upon that point. There was no civilized nation without letters, but then it was not necessary that every I.l , lembr of the Com munity should be learned. • There was a great dif ference bet Ween an unlettered individual in a savage nation, and one in a civilized country; the former was a savage amongst savages, the latter, though unlettered, , liVed by the lights of those around him. A nation Without arts was in a state of barbarism, but it did not followthat every member of a civilized nation should be an artist or handieraffsinan. Tay hers and masons were necessary to, such a state of society, but it was not necessary that every man should he a taylor or a mason. These callings 'Awe privileges. It all were to be taught to read at id write, a few might rise, but the great mass would" retrain in 4 situation in which reading and writing would be of no use-to them. If they were to be taught to think, care should be taken that they thought well. In giving them the means of know ledge,. the House shOuld be sure that they did not WI into error. If the ;)eople thus iptruaect,ol-0414 read the Bible, could they be certain that they would not fall into error ? If they were to read at all, would they not read Sunday Newspapers, and other Newspapers, and suc h lik e pu bli cat i on s . Would they listen to the teachers of truth, or the propagaters of error ? He had no doubt, that, whilst there would 'not be wanting pe rsons t o a pp e al to their passions and imaginations, they would incline to error. However unpopular the opinion might . be, he had no hesitation in saying, that he, thought it for the interest of a free Gov e r nmen t, that no • persons should be allowed to discuss political ques tions but those who were competent to it. Nothing, was so little true, as that because a person is,deeply interested in a question, he ought to. discuss it. By that rule every man should be his own physician, , every child his own Schoolmaster. For no person • can be more interested in the recovery of the patient than the patient himself, nor in the instruCtion of the child than the child hinaself.—The obje&ion he bad to the measure was, that it would Jet in a large class of the community to ,the discussion of • questions, of which, though they might be interest ed in them, they were not competent to judge. It was with the inteile&ual as with.the physical powers, which produced aneffeCt in propOrtion to their num ber. For if the minds be not of a stature to reach the subje&, the more you multiply voices, the more you overcorne'the chances of error. As he would not prohibit the diffusion of instruotion, so he would not force it 'amongst the people. The means of education at present enjoyed, were full enough for the wants of the people. Allusions had been made to what had been done by a furious mob, in a neig-Y)our ing country, unsoftened by letters. All the atrOci-' ties in that . country, however, had been instigated and committed by classes of men possessing higher cultivation than any that was to be expeQed under the operation of this case of Scotland had also been mentioned, to shew the benefits resulting from national education. But his Learned Friend, as happened in all speculation, here confounded cause and effeat. .The education in Scotland might as well be the consequence as' the cause of the provident habits of the people. It had been observed, on an occasion of a - man's being hanged for forgery, " See there what comes of learning to read and write." His Learned Friend, on the. contrary, ascribed the improved habiti . ' of the people of Scotland to their education.-- But was no allowance to be. made for race or • breed ? Did .not nature put a distinCtion between the charaClers of the inhabitants of different na tions, or of .diderent parts of the same nation ? What was it that had given rise to the obser vation that Scotchmen were remarkable for red hair' and high cheek 'bones ? As to the expeQa lion of his Hon. Friend, that by the means of edu' cation the Poor would cease to be poor, he might as well say that the same effect would be produced by teaching them to play upon the fiddle. The Right Hon. Gentleman continued for a considerable time to argue in this strain with great metaphysical subtlety and whimsical illustrations, and concluded byrecommending, that the Bill should be suffered to lie over till next Session. • Mr. WHITBREAD made a very long and able reply to what he termed the false reasoning of his Right Hon. Friend. He repeated all his former aroments in favour of educating the poorer classes ' of the community,- and contended, that it had been fully proved, by experience and the evidence of tba s in Scotland, and in the North of England, particu larly in Westmorland, that education was produc tive of morality. Adverting to the' number of malefaetors who were yearly executed in London, he asserted that the greatest portion of those male faCtOrs. were Irish ; that the next proportion were English, and that the least proportion were Scotch. This circumstance he attributed to the various de greei in which education was attended to in the three. respettive Countries. He obviated the ob jeations,that had been made to his proposed mea sure on the score ofexpence, observing, that by Mr. Lancaster's method of instru&ion, reading and writ ing, which were taught at one and the same time, • might be acquired with great celerity. In answer to a question to whom he would entrust the education of the poor, he would an swer , to th e Cl ergy o f the Country, who were the most fit to superintend it, or who, if not, ought to render themselves so fit. Should it be objected, that the Clergymen would not be eligible 'persons to undertake the task, he would propose that it should devolve on the Churchwar dens and Overseers. He. dwelt very much on the peculiar importance of instruding the young poor of large towns, more especially in the metropolis of London ; because that metropolis contained at pre sent an immense aggregate of vice, and it therefore became necessary to diffuse as much instruction as possible. He had been advised to postpone the Bill for another year. Human existence was uncertain. He might not , himself live for another year, and he• was unwilling that the measure should fill into the the hands of any one, who might be less enthusiastic in the p rosecut i on of it than himself, saving placed these and other agaments in a variety of lights, he concluded by trusting that the House would allow the Bill to go into a Committee. Mr. WINDHAM and Mr. Rose explained. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex pressed his readiness to concur in the Motion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair, because he was con vinced that the investigation ,of the subjea in the . Committee would be productive of material ad vantage. He•could not,'" however, agree with. the ' Hon. Gentleman in many of his positions; and he • differed considerably from him in the hostility which he had expressed towards the whole code of the Foot Laws; a code which, in his opinion, contained a great deal of good, although, certainly, with some alloy of evil. The House then resolved itself into a Committee, in which a conversation arose between Mr. D. GIDDY, Mr, CAREY, &c.—Mr. WHITBREAD wa anxious that the Bill should be immediately pro ceeded with, reminding the House that it had lain on the table since the 22d of February. Mr. GIDDY and Mr. CAREY. Ohjeaed to any fur ther proceding with the Bill at that late hour of the night (hear twelve o'clOck), as many obje&ions must necessarily arise against the various clauses. It' \,'uy agreed therefore, that the proceeding in the Coto mittee should be postponed ; 'and the House "hayiPg resumed, the Chairman reported. progress, and ob tained leave to sit again on Monday.—Acljourno t.ll to•alo.row (this day).