The Sun. — London, England, 1802-05-04 00:00:00

al 11, 11 . ; 1 . apprehen s i ons f or t h e sa f ety o f those posses- Is, and he w as con fid ent that had His Majesty's u,'l,`nisters prevented the sailing of that Armament iehwent to St. Domingo, it would hereafter be m atter °f sincere regret by the Public, and of deep le P, t °ach to His Maje s ty' s Ministers.—The third 1 : 1a Int allud e d - to b y h i s Right Hon.' Friend, - ,n as ,', t of the departure ,from the Preliminaries,. , i `' on which hi s Ri g h t H on. Friend. had. laid 'rely considerable stress, and made use of it in sup- p o rt Of hi s M ot i on ; but he should be glad' if his f ßi ght Hon. Friend would skew him where the cle :II-tire was to be found in the. Definitive_ Treaty i c .. an ', the Preliminaries. He had pressed much ob, " 1 - ,"„,°rl to the expence of aying for the Troops of „ t c ' e Emperor of' Russia. Now he w'ould ask any man I T sobe r j udgment, without the feeling which in uet'ced•that of his Right Hon. Friend, whether it th a e s not proper that those Troops, which were in t i liay and service, an d u n der the direction, con. 4 i r , ° '' and management of the British Government, „cluld not in thi s case. b e considered - in the sam e n Pation. as any of our own would be. if prisone rs in anothe r C ountry ? Wi t h respect to Malta, 'Night lion. Friend had taken a very ample field. ui s kirt und er corre aion, but he very much doubted I ; l ether t h e arrangement made respeding. Malt a s ;lot. an arrangement w hi c h was i n conteinpla_ Li on a by the late Administration, but he could con. c ici ve it very possible that his Right Hononrable tv might not have concurred, in that measur e i n - ' 11 t , he was in Administration ; but without enter_ I P i nto the p art i cu l ars o f t h e statement o f his Right t : e n • Friend, he had the satisfaCtion to know, that li ilaltese the ms el ves , d eep l y i ntereste d i n t h e execu tion of the , spirit of this Article of the th re4 3', by which they. were to he maintained in k e it station, did not partake of the sentiments of f l ; Right Hon.' Friend ; theirs were those of sans. rp ro on and gratitude to Great Britain for the terms u cured them. With regard to the word Sovereign.: . 3, upon which hi s ' Right Hon. Friend had made cOmment s , trlserted if it was an improper word to be inis ters the Definitive.- Treaty, His Majesty's It Ail had n o excuse, f or he bel i eved the word as adopted, not by the French, but the British it°v.ernment : With regard to the application 01 tivlrhich was to . the'Cape, it did not apply to the or t eerce, but the Shipping, and it was extended li o ji °titer Contratiing.Parties; namely, Spain and . a and the polierof this measure might appear 1- 10,;`,F.0f doubt perhaps to some, and to his Right 'tiend of no doubt, he being convinced of its ve;,„ . `Li'riety : but he would aver, that he had con hest with many of those, who certainly had the tiot/ me ans of b e i ng qua lified to f orm a corra l opi di,aci °Pon t h e su bj e ct, an d they thought .that nofroth , v. tage w as lik e l y to resu l t to G reat B r i ta i n, hi s ltne chang e w hi c h was a d opte d in this respea-. sl i b ; ,ght Hon. Friend had said a great deal on the lie h of th e T reaty, as to the omissions of 11 14 c r i d said, it did nor renew any of these Com tust-`3l Arrang ements w hi c h i t h a d a l ways b een tip, - , °4l4 tY to ienew . G reat pa i ns h a d b een ta k en ti 2 .: th at subj e ct, to s e t o ff t h e supposed di sa d van, at"; us, of these om i s si ons . U pon t hi s , h e cou ld th e ',, es ent Only sa y, t h at if t h e pr i nc i p l e upon w hi ch 4vi th reaty was agreed to was erroneous, it was iii,Z 4t any plea or excuse erroneous on tbe part of at e - •," A ajesty's Ministers,, for this omission was not an jestluental one, it was advisedly so settled ; His Ma. d er Y's Ministers were thorOughly convincedthat un tta,he Present state of Europe, and all the circum aaa-ee of the case, their took a part whiCh was ate ed to the real interests of Europe in general, kerningts Majesty dominions in particular, by ali from the renewal of any Treaties of Com cire,c,e, hatever.He knew it had been industriously veall-co that a p ropos i t io n was mad e by Hi s Ma ess.Go‘ yrnment upon this subject, and that it ai~h z.e .l e aed by France, and, that we submitted our their determination : the fact was not so, Par t ; eit Proposition was brought forward, by either Right Hon. Friend spoke with peculiar ° I I the subjed of the Treaties of 1783 and Dt e „" Witho ut enter i ng into 'a justification, at ‘ay, - , n , t, of th e con d u et . o f Mini sters, h e cou ld only i tat tu at he felt a perfed confidence that His Ma. Ministers had con c l u ded themselves pr o p er l y fr o , Particul ar ;h e only asked the House to abstain i forrni ng a ' final opinion upon this subject, that t hey e melt would allow themselves a pause before vi le gave th e i r j u d gment; the season was at hand and'll, they wo u ld h ave a clear view of this matter, tio4"e felt a perfed confidence, that the justifica. fil4i°l Ministers would appear to the entire satis. 111 4 r -of the House. His Rt. Hon. Friend had said, certain the Tre at y o f t 783, die rights of France, in r ho c ommercial commercial points, were surrendered, and ti ed ..of Gr eat B r i tain e stablished, and this was Car. A spu 'arther to our. advantage, after 'some ineffedtial I .,, Q te s on the part of France, by the Convention Ni, 7- All he should say at present on, that te at Ns, .tha t no -rights whate ver ,: on the port- - Of thi n •-tu'rtratn, were surren d ere d , or given up by dither re atY. The quest i on of right, as deter m i ne d q h t, B "Y the Trea t y o f 1783, or the Co nvent i o n Pr tst i 7, did not mix itself in the discussion of the th ey nt Treaty. The rights, therefore, whatever Th e stood untouched in this Treaty.— to ne re atY of 1783, and Convention of 1787, were tight rcial-arrangements; and as to the question of ti gh t , ,swltarever. it was, it remained untouched. t a in had established Rights that were 1 4 ; n es lous in their nature from those of any other lac ed 1 :" 1 to her India possessions, but 'as far as re. 0 Great Britain and France, he believed it N'Peat• that • none of these Rights would be 1 -s `a hY . . Ad a y omissions whatever in the present On the s u bj e ct of the Bay of Honduras, exp .t . t !T Hon.h Frie n d h a d not been so ample as he s ,.;;•q•lig-Would have been, when h e cons id ere d of y e . a ( r i7 he had taken. -'We had for a long series b y an established practice, intitled our. tke tc , ,e r ( o, very valuable privileges, which we had iN44 r t uninterruptedly during War, as well ted i qed during Peace : and this was not dis t') triik!)), that Power which was most interested t o th in g a case against us, and would have it, had Ru g lit Ri , h t the case . against us could be made. c 4 r Hon. Frie n d had closed his comments ; I '.'lnt ‘ t 4 t e , r _ en ce to an article of great importance, he lii l l s rh a ' t e p, c ,.'"e of the Prince of Orange he had . titi_ 'thee was not described in the Treaty by °f. ?duce of Orange, NOW' , he was not Ih to inform his Right Hon. Friend, that Such title had' never been recognized by any Government of. France—he was sure this could not be contradided, and he would repeat it, that such title had never been recognized by any Government whatever of France ; he meant, that the head of tharill,ustrious House had never been recognized by any Govern ment of France since the Revolution, by which the head of that illustrious House had been placed on the ThrOne of. Great Britain. . His Right Hon. Friend had said, that no effedual stipulation was made to that Prince for the loss of his property : this- was an objedion that might have been made to the Preliminaries of Peace, and most unquestionably it was a very important subject. Certainly the terms were not so favourable for that illustrious Fa mily as he could have wished; but certainly the Treaty contained terms for adequate compensation ; for it said, that for losses suffered as well in private property, as by thechange of Constitution adopted in that Country,' an adequate compensation should be procured for the House of Nassau,' for losses not only of a territorial nature, but of private property. His Right Hon. Friend had said, he did not like the use that was made of the words " credit" and " confidence ;" that they were words , too fre quently used in that House and elsewh e r e that, in a political light, they should not be used, in the same sense they were taken in upon the Royal Ex change, for, that they applied to the charader of ,the-Nation. He should be glad to know to whom ialiese - words were to be,applied in so large a sense as '-to this' Country, as to the Country in which we had the happiness to live ? He was aware of many diffi culties which attended the late Negotiation, and he was-aware also, that they were well 'applied to the charader of this Country in all its transactions, and it was a sentiment 'entertained by all those who had been in alliance 'With us ; although even wally their interests had nor been so - effeCtually se. cured as he could wish, or as it had been our con_ stant endeavour to effeEt. The only objection he had to the Motion of his Right Hon. Friend, applied merely to the day on which lie proposed to bring it forward, and when this Treaty was proposed to be taken into consideration, he was not at all Sur_ prized that his Right Hon. Friend, who disliked the whole of the Peace, should like to see every part of it rejected ; but the sense he had Of his duty, compelled him to do every thing in his power to prevent an interval taking place between this, and the period of the discussion of the subjea, and dur ing-which the people of this Country would be kept in suspense, which, of itself, was a consideration of some importance: he did not know the use of delay in this case—Did his Right Hon. Friend mean to prev - ent any of the provisions of the Treaty being carried into effect ? What then was the object of his Right Hon. Friend ?—if he had any specific objet besides that of a general censure upon the Treaty, let him state it.—Did he mean to prevent restitution being made according to the pro visions of the Treaty ? If lie did—let him state it. But it was an obje't, in the prosecution of which, he believed his Right Hon. Friend would not be countenanced in that House. He wished explana tion, he said . : let him ask it, and if it be reasonable he should obtain it. Ile wished for Papers, let him state which they were, and, with tha leave of that House, he should have them, if proper for His Majesty's Ministers to produce; but lie would not take it for granted, thinking as he did, that so long a delay as was now proposed, was necessary previous to the discussion of the subject; he could not help feeling thitt delay might be pro duaive of very considerable inconvenience ; that of keeping the minds of the Public in suspense was not a slight one, and he felt it his duty to, prevent as much as in his power he could prevent, any inconve nience from such delay: He was desirous,of giving as much time as any Member in the House would really . think necessary upon such a subject as this, judging coolly and dispassionately on it ; _and being con vinced the proposed period for discussion was too' distant, he should not perform .his.duty. if he did not oppose it. Wishing, however, that a fUll- dis cussion should take pl ace , h e s h ou ld .propose, that, instead of to-morrow fortnight, Tuesday se'nnight be inserted ; or, more formally, that instead of the iSth, the ti th ut May be inserted in the Motion. Fie concluded by moving this Amendment. Mr. T. GRENVILLE said, he did not rise for the purpose of detaining the House with any dis t ussion upon the ,topics alluded to by his Right Hon. Friend, and noticed by the Rt. Hon. Gentleman opposite to him, as they were all . naturally'enough adverted to by his Right Hon. Friend; and touch ed upon by the Right FlOn. Gentleman, who had admitted the importance of the'subjed, and the ne cessity of its•compleat investigation ; however, he could - not help obserVing, that in proportion to the importance of the subject, and variety of topics which wereinclodedin it, was the necessity of time, for 'the consideration of them : He was of opinion, that the House could not form a judgment upon that question, without being much better informed than it possibly could be at present, as appeared from the Speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who de sired the House to suspend its opinion for the pre sent. He was therefore convinced, that fourteen days was not too lung a period for the House to collet such information as may be necessary to en able it to form its judgment upon this important question. The House having seen how difficult it was to enter into a long argument upon all the topics which had been alluded to, without a great deal of information, it was impossible for the different Members of the House, consistently with the preoccupation of much of their time to the other business of the House, to quidify them-, selves to form a coned opinion of this'important subject in less time - than was proposed by his Right Hon. Friend. It was highly important to the commercial and political interests of all,the Niitionsof the Globe, that - this matter should be subjected to the deliberate judgment of that House ; it was a Treaty in many respeds new—new, in as much as that it did away entirely. the Commercial relations formerly subsisting between that Country and other Powers ; none of these Commercial R e l at io n s were renewed in that Treaty ; it was, indeed, taken colleaively, a Treaty, the like of which, was .never agreed to before by this Country. He expatiated upon many of these tOpics,.but he did not profess to answer any of them.: he was merely stating their importance, . , . ' and the necessity there was for time to be taken ' - - to prepare Gentlemen for the consideration of theni ; and he did not think he should be warranted in re commending a shorter period, than what was propos_ ed by his Right Hon. Friend. Lord HAPVICESBURY said, that it was not his, intention to enter at present i n to a f u ll r e ply to the observations from his Rt. Hon. Ffiend (Mr: Wfsin- Ft Als),- he rose merely at present to make a few obser vationsupon the time at which it was p ropose d, b y the Motion before the House, to take the Defini tive- Treaty into consideration. Upon the face of the business he should say, that onasubjed which must necessarily occupy the public' mind so much, and One that was so interesting and, important in., its nature, though it was undoubtedly proper th a t full and sufficient titne'should be'given for the con sideration of such a subject previous to its . discus-. sion, yet on the other.hand, he could not but think the Debate upon such a subjel, ought not to be - unnecessarily suspended. When that was the im pression which the first view of this subjeft made upon his mind, he. must naturally ask, what reason, could be given for the delay which Was now pro posed ? His Right Hon. Friend had divided the. Subject into four heads, but in his opinion it might more properly be di v ided into two, viz. first whether the alterations which had taken, place, whether known or not, since the signing of the Preliminary Treaty, ought to.have induced His Ma jesty's Ministers to have refused to sign the De finitive Treaty of 'Peace, on the eeme -term, 213 the Preliminarieg ? The second Head was, the defects, whether ofomission - or commission in the Defini tive Treaty.. As. to the first of these heads, whether these events, which were notorious, such as the First Consul of France having accepted the Presi— dency of the Italian Republic, the surrender of the , Isle of Elba to France, and the „cession of Louisiana by Spain ; whether those circumstances ought or ought not to have induced His Majesty's Ministers to conclude 'the Definitive Treaty -with France s • was a question for future discussion. .But it should be recolleled, that they were. not now known to us for the first time; they had been publicly known for many months ; and therefore he: Was sure that there was no person as all interested in 'the welfare of his Country, who had :notsfuily considered this question (a, very important eneshe. admitted, and on which adifference. of opinionmight exist) and I formed his opinion ' upon it. , Whit regard -to the second rsint, viz. the . defeds of , the Definitive Treaty, he begged to observe, that the customs of .France being different from ours upon these subjeds, the Definitive Treaty. had been for some time in. point 'of fad known by the Public, and therefore his Right Hon. Friend must have made up his niind with regard to the information which he wanted, and the Papers which he. should require upon this.. Under these circumstances,, considering that these objeds most ,range themselves underthe different heads 'which he had stated, viz, the alteration of . circumstances since , the Preliminaries which • had been known for some months, and the stipulation of the Definitive Treaty which, had been for some tithe before the Public, he could not conceiv e an y reason that - could b e stated, why the discussion should be delayed... But he was certain", that if, on ' the one hand no good reason could be assigned for - the delay, that on the other, great inconvenience would arise from it. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr: Wilk/1)14Am) had stated, that the CHAsteirstsoß of the EXCHEQUER had requested the 'House to sus pend their judgment until full information was be fore them ; he did not understand him to have said any such thing; he had merely requested the House to suspend, their judgment upon the arguments con tained. in the Right Hon. Gentleman's Speech, un-' til the subjed came to be fully discussed. With regard- to the information which his Right Honour. - able Friend said would . be necessary previous to the discussion' of this.sUbjed, it was impossible for His • Majesty's Ministers to know Whether it would be consistent with their 'duty to c onsent to grant it; until the nature of the information he required was known. He had heard of notices of, Motions in , other places,' abot4 which of Course he* could say nothing at present. ' Some things it would un doubtedly be necessary to grant, but with regard to the Treaty itself, he wished it to speak for it se lf, and to depend up on its own merits. His Right HMI. Friend (Mr. GitENviLLE) was in the House when the last Treaty of Peace was under consider ation, and had voted for a censure upon Ministers. - Upon' that occasion there was no great length of time given when that Vote of Censure was brought forward. The Party with ' whom his Right Hon. Friend at that time agreed in opinion, moved that Vote of Censure without any information at -all, contending that Ministers were deserving of censure upon the face of the Treaty itself. The Noble, Lord who made the' Motion which he alluded to, did (what he did not mean to ,contend was impro per) contend that that Treaty was upon the face of . it. so had; that it was 'not necessary to call for any further Documents'. He would not upon the pre, sent occasion trouble. the House ,any longer, he would only say, that it was impossible to know from-what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend, what the information was that he required. At all events, he.was sure that no ground had been ad vanced why the discussion of this most important question should be put off so long. The fats upon which the discussiim must turn, had been for some time known to every body, and their opinions must have been formed: Upon 'these grounds he should Support the Amendment which had. been proposed. • - - t Mr. WINDHAM, in' explanation, said, that he would not employ much of the time of the House. He had proposed so di sta n t a d ay for the discussion of this subjeti, becau.t.e he was convinced .that it was one that required that some time should be given to enable Gentlemen to come prepared for the discussion.—lndepend ent 'of 'the general points to which the Noble Lord . had alluded, such as. the Chief Consul being made President of the Italian- Ref;ublic, &c.. there were many others of a less im portant nature, which appeared to him to require explanation. Upon the subject: of Tradein pa rtiou tar, he thought that much information ..was necei.• sary, and also with reg4rd to our. Eastern Posses, sions. The CHANCELLW) of tbe EXCHEQUER sa id , it mizlit relson a bly be expected, th it every. groper , • • • - Information should be 91ven gi upon - this subjeFV; but with regard to the specific papers which his Right Hon. Friend wanted, he hyped he wuuld state' the nature .of,theni distinelly.- 7 He wished to take this' opportunity of stating„ that his Right Hon.• Friend had misconceived him; in supposing him to say that. the House Wbuid their judgment upon the Definitive _'l reaty. till further inforniation should be given ; lie only hoped they would suspend their judgment upon the question until it underwent a full and complete investigation. Mr. WINDHAM said, that one piece of infor.: mation which he should require would be, to know the effect which :he non-renewal of the 'Treaties of 'Commerce :would have upon our Eastern Trade. This, was a Pdint Which would certainly .require some time, in order to get the necessary informa tion ; the, same observation applied as to the hu. • siness of HOnduras. Then with regard to Treaties, some of -them were certainly beiore the House, others were before the Public, but not in an authen tic way, and there were some, particularly that • one by which Louisiana was 'ceded to France, which he had never seen. But he was not then prepared to state specifically the different papers which might be necessary to produce previous to the discussion upon this subjed. • Mr. PITT said, that if it shonld be the pleasure of the House to fix the shorter day which had been proposed for the discussiOn of this question, it would be necessary to have „much informatiOn,, and therefore it his Right Hon. Friend was not now prepared to state" distinetly the Papers which he: wanted, he hoped he would 'by te-nanrrow .be enabled to put his Motion in a precise shape, be cauSe it could only be a question of fOrrn ; for his Right. Hon. Friend must certainly be apprized of the general tendency of the Papers which he want. ed. He was sure that no person could have , heard the speech of his Right Hon. Friend, with. out being convinced that it was not made with. . out very ample information upon the subject. His : Right Hon. Friend, was, he was sure, much too dis-, erect and well-informed to have said what he had, Without having previously obtained such informa. . lion, as satisfied his _mind - upon , the subjea. The whole question now being, how.the question shoul come before the HoUse for diScUssion, the earlier his Right. Hon. Friend's application for information came. before the House, the 'sooner that information, if proper., could_be given, His Right Hon. Friend had said, that it did not require much time to ask for papers,, but that much time might elapse before they could be prepared : upon that ground therefore the sooner they were moved for, the sooner they would be laid before the'House. The question was not .a new-one to. his Right "Hon. Friend, it had eVidently, engaged much of his attention, and there.- P ; fore he could not be unprepared to state the specific loformadon which he required. He was'sure, from the manner in which his Right Hon. Friend had _taken up the question,. that it was One Which he thought ought to be brought under discussiory as soon as possible, after-the House was in possession of thenecessuy information, because he wished that, which would best promote the interest and prospe ' rity of the Country. He was therefore con. viriced that his Right Honourable Friend would , not wish, after the doubts he had stated, that an 7 unnecessary interval of suspense should take place . before the opinion of Parliament. was taken, upon the . question. It was not his intention at pre. sent to anticipate the discussion,. by entering into the subject at preset.z, !.ill there was • one j point to which, he could not avoid alluding for a me. ment.—He could not but rejoice that upon this point his Right Hon. Friend had not represented our rights as doubtful, though he hid spoken of the claims of those who were lately our Enemies.—He alluded to what his Right Hon. Friend had- said about India. one of the great limbs of the power of this Country, and one of the great'sources of that wealth and commerce which had raised this Country to her present exalted state, and bad assisted in car rying us through that great and eventful contest which had just ended. When the question came under discussion, it would he found that there was not only no ground for 'solid, but no pretence even for -contentious argument, or plausible cavil ;• and, therefore, after whit he had heard stated, he could not but codnt the moments till the subjea could be investigated, which he hoped required nothing bit an impartial discussion, to remove all the uneasiness from the public mind, because it would prove that there. existed a determination in Peace to maintain those rights which we secured and strengthened by War. . Upon these grounds, he hoped his Right Hon. Friend would excuse him for requesting him to state as soon as possible the precise nature of the inforMation he required. His Right Hon. Friend ! had 'talked .of.-ttte. necessity of producing several 1 29t0n1q.. , 0f -them could not in point Of form be laid upon the Table of the House, and 'with regard toothers, it could not be supposed that it would be proper to lay before the House the Treaties of Westphalia, Ryswick, Utrecht, etc. If Gentlemen had not looked at and considered all those Treaties 'already, certainly neither a week nor a fortnight'Would be sufficient to prepare them for the discusSion of this question. But in order to as. certain the . skate of Europe immedi ate ly prev i ous to, during, - and since the War, the only information. that could be given, mtfst be in the discussion of the question. With regard to the apprehensions which his Right Hon. Friend had expressed, that in con. Sequence of the non-renewal of Treaties, parti cularly that of 1787, the French would esta blish the 'pretensions which they bad, advancid previous . 1787; it would be necessary, in the • first place, to ascertain, what .these preten sions were, ;and upon what ground they 'rested.— If it should turn out-that those pretensions, be they what they Might, had no foundation whatsoever, then, undoubtedly, any inquiry into the subject would be useless. The first question was, Whether . we were of opinion, that in point of faa, our lateene... • mies had no such pretensions; and - Whether we knew enough of. our own rights to say,that those which *, we had maintained_in War should not be 'conceded in Peace? He knew enough, of those pretensions, to state that they arose out of two foundationi, but principally, out of the Treaty of 1783, which was now done away. far as they arose out of Grants from the Gteat. Mogul, Hof. whom we were in faa the substitutes) these grants must be - h;