The Sun. — London, England, 1807-02-05 00:00:00

war, cer.• wed had 4 - right to eOrciSe ih . their `interference in increased in proportion as our Maritime supe rioritygrew on the de,truation .of the marine of the enemy. 'ln times 'when maritime power is n early balanced ; every country 'carries pn -this trade on Its' own bottotns by means of convoys: It Was thus carried-on 'in time of 'Peace. The restric tion now irnoosed,' while . it would be very an l'eTing to the 'enemy, would 'still allow to neu trals a gainful commerce, by , making their ports the tizteepots between one enemy's' port -and 'another.-.- 4 t was honourable to - us, as a great Nation, 'that in Proportion 'as the enemy was violent, we were mO orate. Our moderation would be, besides, the means procuring us supplies 'of the articles Vee wanted front the enemy, and of introducing our commodities among them. He would ask, whether the interven-e !:ton of Neutrals would not afford a - great facility to 'hat,: Bonaparte was 'most hostile to, the intro-, t•lnEtion of British goods i n to the countries un-' der his controul, and our ebtaining from those eountries the supplies we want from them. • The ,eonsmerce from - port to port, 'in a 'line of coast; extending from the Elbe to Venice; -with . the ex- 4 eeption of Pont/gal; could `not be carried on by' •Prnall craft, creeping along shore -under. the pro teetion of batteries.- Small craft - could. nut creep from ArriSterdatn . to Bourdeaux, froM Bourdeaux to Barcelona, from thence to Leghorn, and from Leghorn to Venice: The number of vessels em ployed under the system -of neutralizatioh in this extent was .very great; and the trade itself 'was of 1 41 importance Jo` France ; and was it to be con -tended, that the application of our maritime supe- Ahrity to the preventioit of this trade on so vast a line of coast, was a measure that_ would be attended 'ith no effect, at a time when our Cruizers were so, l tilmerous or every station, that no ship could move without the greatest risk of being captured.—The earned Gentleman then adverted to the opinion of ' 44 . Honourable and Learned Friend, who presided Over the Admiralty Court, relative to the importance a nd extent of the coasting. trade. This was an 'authority which the House would lOok to with 1 .; _ e sPeCt. The opinion -had been stated by that Learned Gentleman in giving judgment in a cause tried before him, and • the coasting trade was re-: Presented by hito as one of the greatest acconi kodations . any country. Some 'conception Rightbe formed ' of the importance of it, if Gentlemen would- suppose France to be pos kssed•of the Sense. naval superiority which this Country at present had, and that the coals of New castle were to be brought to the Port of London, and every other necessary for the consumption of this great metropolis, ;.n neutral vessels. His Hon. 'and Learned Friend, therefore, was not corredt in stating that the interruption of the coasting trade would be no treat injury to France, or that the Order of Council for that purpose' signified nothing. That Order was but one step, and an important step, of those that es...Urould, if necessary, be resorted to for ret.iiiation.— From the manner in which this subi-::.t Imad been treated, it might be s‘apposed that no such measure as that of the enemy had ever been resorted to before. )3ut in the Administration-of that. lustrious States- Rein, now no more, and whose..loss. he regretted as 1 /Inch as any Member of that House, much more ri t°ns measures had' been resorted to by the enemy the present. In the year 1797, after the 4..rencti 1 d ruade,peace with Austria, and the army, which Leen arrogantly called the Army of England, " been &ciliated at. Brest, with a view to turn tlvir tht i nie force against this Country ; in that year, on e twenty-ninth NTiVose, year six, that is, in thris an lang uage , on the' nineteenth day of January, 179 8, a Decree was passed by the French Gm era i'hen,t Making all Vessels that should be freighted the whole or in part with English commodities, f°°d Prizes. A Vessel proceeding from Copenhagen o Tranquebar e or from Lisbon to the Brazils, ' inch I.%rd but a s i ng le b a le o f E ng li s h goo d s on b oar d, was be confiscated if captured by French Cruizers. The 0 1.1se would perceive that the former Decree was much more atrocious than even the late one. In order shew what had been the feelings of the Neutral Na rtts on the subject of that Decree, he need onlyreter oh t he Speech of the President of the United StateS opening the Session of Congress, on the Bth of e eeniber, 1798, in which' he declared, that, " as the W Decree of the 19th of the preceding January : 8 S till in force, in consequence of the failure of an t 'empt to procure its -repeal, he considered it as-an t epee and sovereignty of neutral nations, which was n 'j to ne met by a di.termined resistance." As the • C hief Magistrate of America had expressed so strong s ense Of the aggression in that instance, there was I ° grolind to suppose that he would not act as decided .l-deration why . on the pr ese n t o cca s i o n. A n d thi s wa s another con this country ought to abstain for the „resent from any act which might prove grievous to t,'e trade of America, until it should be seen whe ther th e American Government would follow the e at ile Course now as in 1798. The Decree of .1798 t7d continued in force durifig the last Peace, and t h °ll gh it had been evaded- by means of Neutral Fr Ps' no Vessel was allowed to, enter a port of c o without a certificate of origin from the French it Itiathz.! ns o i „ Commercial Agent, at the port wrience , ur s ailed. Yet that Decree had passed unnoticed eedent, 4t instance, and, on the authority of that pre le take n ; it-was his opinion that no measures should .11 the present case, except such as would tra attended wit h as little rigour as possible to the L i tof .Neutral. As to the measure proposed by the Order of C ounc il, namely, that- no Ships with lonia' Produce s h ou ld b e su ff ere d t o en ter th e ,Wports Ot France e did he suppose that such a measure ould b e more distressing to the trade France, xv _ (0 that of N eutta l s, or to our own tra d e ? It' trsQlsuid be injuri ous to our tra d e, b ecause t h e Nene , by carryin g the Colonial produce of the enemy, e enabled to export our manutaaures in great trtities. Th e House of Commons would not there , in ln the exer cise of its inquisitorial powers, in _e with thi s act o f the Executive, until it should llhe w hat effeti would be preddced' by the measure ot had..i already been resorted io. It was his opi highuitta the cutting:oft the coasting trade would be in the distressing to - France ; but if France should, rsitee nadir ? 9ss .her po li o the ) think of shutting tip rna ming Neutral Ports upon the Continent, would soon find that they are now as necessary her ast o- Great Britain. As soon as she should ti ; t4 ig to feel. the distr ess ar i s i ng from shutting up IN: tts4 she • would Te;on ree,; /1421:6 1 1 / 1 . 14.1 fir t 1 we're al Osent in her oLhnpation. tt was therefore his opinion, that they should. in the first instance make trial of the measure' that had beet - t . edopted, as they would at all times have it in their power to re sort to measures of greater extremity, - if such - should be found necessary. The • adopt iou of moderate measures in the first instance, would be creditable to . the national charaEter . ----and in •the national character -consisted, in a great degree, the national strength. If the enethy-should persist in their Decree, and at -tempt to enforce ite- then he was convinced that the: country had sufficient means, and His nijesty's 'Ministers sufficient vigour, to resort . lo such 'mea sures as should be deemed necessary for a complete retaliation. On all these grounds he thought that . no. -good reason had beeu stated ,for the production of. the Paper. Air. JACOB was of opinion that this country ought' always tO assert its claim 4) its full rights, but at the same time, he did not think that iii the present circumstances of Europe it should exercise them to their-full extent. If the whole Colonial Trade was to be stopped, he would ask. the Learned Gentleman whether he thought it would be mere. injurious to France than to Great Britain ? Above one-half of the "Colonial produce consumed in Fratice was British Colonial produce.; What: inconvenience, 'therefore, might not result, if .the trade that supplied France with that produce :was to be put a stop to ? If the 1` measure proposed' by the 'Learned Gentleman were -to' be adopted; the only efte& of it would be; 'that it would be injurious to that. already suffering class of the community, the West-India Merchants and. Planters, and irritating to Neutrals, and the whole of the remaining civilized States of the world. He was.of opinion, consequently, that no ground had been laid,for the produCtion of the Paper.. Lord CASTLEREAGH rose to make a few ob servations, just to shew the grounds of th&Vote he meant to give on the Moileia - of his Hon. and Learned Friend. It did not appear to him that anyarguments Of i'ny weight had been.brought.torward to resist .the able arguments of his Hon. Friend, and certainly no parliamentary objeClion had been started to the "production of a Paper which wa already in the hands of every body in the country. The Honourable and. Learned Gentleman opt,osite (Sir John w ho was justly entitled to the confidence Of that House and of the Couitirs, had not, produced any stifficient objection .against the Motion of his Learned Friend, and, as that Hon. Gehtteman was so Bally.. compe tent to decide upon this question, he did not suppose that any Honourable Member who shook inllow him would be more succe4stul in the at-Jun - lents he might bring forward. The right of wax he was Reidy to admit was a prerogative of the Crown, but .th , ,n was subject to the coutroul of Parliament. He een.. tended that his learned Friend opposite was buend to make out a case, to shew that the Paper ought not to be preduced, before he could call upon him, or hi, HOn. and Learned Frier.d_ near him, to make oit a case of the par.irn !um necessity fur us produc tion. If, however, they were so called un, their diffi culty would not be great, because they 'could shew thatthe measure that ,had been resorted to was in adequate to its prJess,td object. 'Whatever Objec tions -there might be. to the - production of the Paper, on the mound of the adequacy of the measure, or of the delicacy of his Majesty's Ministers on the sill). jea,- th 4 would more properly apply to the pro ceeding that was to be grounded upon the produc tion of the Paper. lh'is question was one of too much importance for any man to bring forward lightly; or unless he could state sufficient ground for the production of,the Paper. He derived some conso lation from the argument' of ,the Learned Gentleman opposite, that this measure was not flue!. Hewes sur prised that his Learned Friend had been so misunder stood, as to have it conceived he had said that the Order of Council would have no practical effect. On the contrary, he had allowed that it would have a great pra6bcal effe6t ; but' as the present circum stances of the Country, arising. out of the Order o f the French Government, weredifferent from any in which it had ever been placed, he contended that more vigorous measures should 'have been adopted. As to the period of our history which. had been al lnded to, he should presently shew that the time. of -the American Government had been wasted in nego tiations, and in intrigues, to corrupt the French Ministers. Whatever might be the feelings of Go vernment towards America, whatever might be the principles on which the late Negotiation had been . condu&ed, these were no reasons for delaying the adoption ,of more vigorous measures of retaliation against the Enemy., He thought it impossible that the Hotise could' form an adequate opinion . whether the measure of Government was wise -or unwise, adequate or inadequate, unless they should look at the state of the Country as to its Mari . time rights. It would be futile for him to dwell in this instance on the importance of its maritime rights to this.country, but it was necessary for the House to look a little at the two Systems of Maritime Rights which it had under different circumstances been called on to, accede to. They would recollect the claims made by the armed neutrality of 1780, and of 1800, that neutral ships should make free goods, and that neutral vessels sailing under convoy of ships of war should not be molested, and that such claims had .been resisted even into war. But the, claims ad vanced by France in the present instance, not only extended to neutrals, but to the free navigation of the mercantile shipping of the Enemy. As the claims now urged by France were so much larger than any that had been before made,. Gentlemen should take care not to assist the views of the• French Govern ment hy opposing the Motion of his Learned Friend, • which might lead to the adoption of such measures as would visit the aggressions of the French Government upon itself, the object of his Honourable Friend being only to shew that the Order is inadequate to its object. There was a great difference between the situation of this country at present and in the year 17g8. Though 'France had then considerably added to her territory, she had not identified with the whole of Europe as she does at present. " She had .the centre of Holland it was trite, but she had hot the ports of the North, Hamburgh, and the Hanse Towns. She had not extended herself over the whole of Europe. Site had the North of Italy, but not the South, or the Kingdom of Naples. Her dominion had not been established over Spain, and Portugal was a substantively independent Kingdom, and not tributary as at present, when she is alloWed to' import articles of British produce; only by pay ing to the French Government. The re : lat; 17F4 Cl trlntinn 1,2r1 t IlgtrTacelrob one A Veal bhdrige since the year MO. Yrhe intinenee and the Bower of the French GOVern mem had laeen then great and formidable'; but they could not employ with such effe& as at present the pressure of their military force against the commerce of this country ; and, therefbre; a greater -, forbear ance might have been pra6tised s towards them than at present. He contended that considerations of fbrhearance respecting America should not in duce, the House to abstain from adopting, not an a& of practical , injustice,• but the measures which the circumstances of the, timets required, namely to - warn AmeriCan vessels, in. the first in stance,. against entering French Ports ; but not to capture them, unless they should be fbund contuma ciously bent on entering:the ports 'of France. What had been said, therefore, did not appear to him to be any ground why his Hon. and Learned Friend shohld desist from prosecuting his motion, hecatise it would be obvious, that what was lost to this cOUntry,by its forbearance, would be gained by France. It was also desirable that:the should have a' more definite statement of. that unexplained period that was to elapse between .the present measure and the more vigorous measures' that were to be adopted by Government. Not withstanding the vast superiority of our Navy, uncontested and incontestible, F'rance had a surprising faCility of - importing the produce of her own, and the Spanish Colonies, to as great an extent as during Peace. Unless some measures of more vigorous retaliatiOn shotild be adopted, she would herea;ter have a larger share of this trade than heretofore ; because she would not only Supply Lei - - self with colonial produce, but ab,solutely hat e a mo nopoly of all the continental markets, against th e co lonial produce of this Country. It was impossible for him, with the documents he had, to stale to what ex tent this would- take place, but certainly France would be put into a better situation than tois coun try ; and the House would be able to judge of this question when aware, that the Objeat of tile French Government, as stated in. her Decree, was to annihi late the trade and commerce of this'country. It might assist in forming this judgment to'iOok at the amount of colonial produce imported into, and exported fr om , America in the last .year. The gross amount of its imports 'Was' of the value 'of seventy-five millions of dollars, 'Of which twenty-eight ' minions of dollars value had been re-exported to Europe, the greater part to France, by fictitious changes of ownership; however it,was contrivol. The amount of the export he took from an official American document,' and the produce reached the ports of France, where in a revenue was colleded upon it, that enabled France to'carry on the War against this Country ;. and all this from our forbearance relativ'e to Neutrals. It they were to look only to the question of in surance, they would find that 4 cargo from a French .Colony to a Port of the Mother Country, without some protection of convoy, can. be insuriad on the same terms as i t vessel from Jamaica to Great Britain, whose Squadrons c o ve r th e . o cean. By these means tue,revenue of France was fed as cffeduaily as in time -of peace, and the French Government enabled to carry on the war with so much facility and effect. But the Learned Gentleman opposite, had said that we:had - to - right to interfere until we should have as certained Whether. America would submit to the ag 'gression of France, .Did the Hon. Gentleman mean to say, that, until the American Merchant should be afraid to risk his cargo, which he might cover by zissui . ance, lest before its arrival at its destination it Should - be captured; we should defer' taking those vigorous measures which the measures of the Enemy had rendered necessary ?; That this. Country was to wait till it should know what might be the repre .sentations of the American Government on the sub ject of the extraordinary Decree of the Enemy? They might, however, judge what would be the represen tations of the American Government, bpthe conduoi which that Government had adopted during the last War, when it was every way in a better condition to resist the injustice. of the Enemy; But if they were to wait till the American Government should insist upon those principles by which the Law of Nations is upheld, they might wait till doomsday, as, what ever might be tbeir feelings, the commercial people would 'attend to their commercial interests. Since the publication 'of this Decree, which had been at first generaL as to all Nations, some communication had taken place between the American Ministers in this Country and the French Gcnernment, in conse quence of which, some practical relaxation of the Decree bad taken place. This was one ground why he should look upon_ Atnerica with jealousy ; and it was an aggravation that she had, by a secret under standing with the French Government, contrived to 'take her shipping out of the operation of the, De cree, that was at first general, and placed herself in a situation of connivance with the French Govern ment. An American Agent might have represented to the French Government, how little it could gain by the execution of the Decree, so far as America . was concerned ; that France had not the power of in tercepting American vessels, and therefore as she could not gain much, that she might the more readily take from the Americans the necessity of vindicating theirown rights byresisting theexecution of the Decree, and leave their neutral flag still to cover French colonial produce. It was not surprising that the Deputies of Hamburgh, and the Hanse Towns, had failed in their mission to the French Ruler; but when the case of America had been stated to him, it was too obvious not to awaken him to a sense of the policy of attend ing to it. If it should not also awaken his Majesty's Government to a sense of what they ought to do, Parliament ought to make them alive to the measures which should be adopted in consequence of the gressions of the French Government and the su pineness of his Majesty's Ministers. On all these grounds, he should support tber-Motion of his Hon.: and Learned Friend. Lord TEMPLE, if lie . bad had any doubts as to the propriety of granting the Paper moved for by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman when .he had given notice of his Motion on a former day, felt that these doubts would have been completely removed. by the . speech of the Learned Gentleman himself,, and of . the Noble Lord who had just sat down.—. Nothing could be more hostile to the constitutional principle than what had been stated by 'the Learned Gentleman as the ground of his Motion ; nothing. more hostile to the feelings of the House, or to the interests of the country. It had always been hig opinion that it was the duty of that House to watch the conduct of his Majesty's, Ministers ; that it was the duty of the House to give them its confidence, 111\fIt It Clsr‘ill r:oz. esmca drawing it, and to carry tip advicd to his Majesty with, respect .- to the great concerns cif the Govern= ment. - But this was the first time in Which it h , ,,t been proposed to recommend to his . Majesty from that House a great measure of warfare. This NV,zil the first instance of the House. having been called upon to go to the foot of the Throne to tell his Majesty,, that the House, not Approving of a partwular.: war measure, fecommended au , other to be adopted in its place. If the• House, wss of opinion that the war had been improvidently conducted by Ministers, it was their duty to stJe, - 5 to his Majesty, and to , the House, that circum stance ; that they had forfeited their claim to. con , fidence,•and to address for their removal from ollice. But be looked upon the present proceeding as beitig most unconstitutional, aS it was most unprecedent , ed—inasmuch as it had for its object to force Go vernment to alter the measures it had adopted with respect to the neutrals or our Allies, before it could `be known what effect they would produce.: If the ground of the Hun. Gentleman's Motion, were ad mitted, it would prove injurious to this couritry,and faVourable to the etkiny. The, Learned Gentleman had made an attack on his Hon. Friends on the Bench with hins—(the Treasury Bench)--for their opposing this Motion. But he could have wished that- the Learned Gentleman lid called to reineni larmice hiS own condyct ; when he (Lord 'l'.) and some friends of his who disapproved ;of the Treaty of Amiens, had supported a Motion for som Papers relating to that Treaty. • Ii had then been objected to them, that • the Treaty was con cluded ; and no person had given more decided, Opposition to that. Motion than the Learned Gen-- tleman with the whole force of his eloquence.--i- The Learned Gentleman had asked whether there was any precedent of a similar Paper, when moved ,for, having been refused ? But he,should ask that- Learned Gentleman fur a precedent of a sienilar Paper having been asked to he produced. Many , Orders of Council had, on different occasions, been called for ; but this was the first time in which an . ..Order of 'Council had been called fur immediately after it was made, and before it could he knOwn what eifeft it would produce. It was agreed on all hands, that this Country possessed the right of re taliating ; but the question was, whether it would be politic in us to exercise that right to its fullest extent ? The Noble Lord seemed to think it a great objeft to pre - vent her Colonia4 produce from reaching France ; and the Learned Gentleman had stated, that if that were etfe&ed, it would raise the price of :our Colonial. produce in France. He admitted that _Such an effe& would be the ! consequence. But wa; the Noble Lord aware of the consequences that Would result to the commerce and manufactures of , this Country,. if the neutral colonial trade were done away ? The _exports from this, Country . amounted within the last year to ; twenty-four millions, which, he admitted, had unfortunately not all been export ed in British vessels. Eleven millions of these had been exported to America, a small portion of which were for the American consumption, and the rest were disposed of in payment for colonial produce, which was afterwards brought to Europe. The ut most produce of the French Colonies in one .year did not exceed four or five millions,. so that the whole of the remainder most have-been the producp of the British Colonies. The effea of putting a stop to the colonial trade, therefore, would be todiminish the amount of the exports froni Great Britain. The exports to America had sunk considerably during the last peace, because the trade which the Americans had enjoyed exclusively before, was then carried on by the Mother Countries; Another objection that appeared to him against measures of rigorous retalia tion was, that if 'American trade to Freud) ports were to be stopped, according to his apprehenSion, the interruption could not be extended to their trade to friendly neutralports. The result theref o re wou ld be that the French colonial produce would be spread by the Americans all over Europe, and by meeting our own colonial produce in every market, diminish its value.-The Honourable Gentleman had ex pressed some, satisfailion that the right had not been conceded, though he could not conceive how the right could have been reserved if' not acted upon ; certainly it could•be no otherwise than a right : reserved them, but not being aged upon, viz.-a right dormant until an occasion should occur for exercising it. , The Honourable and Learned Gentleman had re commended as a substitute for the present measure, to compel .the 4mericans to touch at British'ports -before they, should be allowed to proceed to the ports of France. This appeared to him a most ex traordinary proposition, that the French colonial produce should be warehoused as British stores, and pay duties in this Country. After the statement of his Learned Friend, it ,was not necessary to go more at length into this question. • TURTON expressed his surprise that any reluelance should be betrayed .to grant Pa pers, fur the production of which the most constitu tional and parliamentary grounds could be urged : that at least was his opinion, and he did not despair of being able to maintain it. The Paper. that was moved for, bore upon the face of it every possible mark of imbecility and indecision. All thecommercial towns in the kingdom, indeed the .whole, country, considered it in that light, and lamented the want of that vigour and energy which should charaderise the measures of a British AdAlinistration. The House was told, indeed, that to push measures to a proper degree of retaliation would be to ad in a manner not only injurious to neutral Powers) but prejudicial to the interests of our own commerce. He was at a loss to see any satisfa&ory proof of such an assertion. In his mind, the real cause of this pusilaniruous for bearance was the fear of offending Ainerica, the dread of breaking off the Treaty lately pending be tween this country and the American Government. That Was the pistol held to . the breast of Ministers; and this their great anxiety to ward it off. He was happy, however, to learn that MiniSters did not mean to stop here, and that the present measure Was only an experiment. If - anything farther was done, the country would. be indebted ibr it - to the motion made this night by the .Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) for without such incite ment he was sorry to observe that Ministers seemed of themselves little disposed to adopt any thing like vigorous and energetic measures. Lord HOlcla felt little inclined or called upon tolnake any observations upon the question ; but seeing no other person disposed to rise, and consider ' ing, trle nature of the arguments that had been urged