The Sun. — London, England, 1859-03-08 00:00:00

THIS DAY'S SHIPPING. LONDON, March 8 . —Wind this d a y a t noon NW • fresh breeze, and fine weather. • •, FALMOUTH, March 7.—Wind W.—Sailed —Her Ma jesty's gunboat Hind, for Plymouth, with ordnance, saved from the wreck of the Czar (screw steamer). CLYDE, March 6.—Wind W .—Sailed—Mar y and Ann , for Ri o Janeiro ; Hornby, for Bahia ; Henry Currvin, for Surinam ; Emma, for Trinidad. IioLL, March 7.—Wind W.S.W.—Arrived—Suzo, from Rio Grande. . —A PLYMOUTH, March 7.—Wind W. S.W rrived— Dover Castle, from London for Port Philip. Sailed— Phcebe, for the Cape of Good Hope. SWANSEA, March 7.—WindW.N.W.—Arrived —Staines Castle, from Cuba ; Daedalus, from Quebec. PORTSMOUTH, March 7.—Wind W. to W.S.W.—Ar rived—Earl of Hardwicke, from London for Madras. QUEENSTOWN,__March B.—Arrived—David Stuart, from Cadiz for New York, with 66 Neapolitan refugees, who ompelled the master to land them here. (BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH LIVERPOOL, Tuesday Morning. Wind w. ; strong breeze. Arrived, March 7.—J. Baker, from Charleston. Arrived, March B.—Danube, screw steamer, from Alex andria. (BY SUBMARINE AND BRITISH TELEGRAPH.) GRAVESEND, Tuesday Morning, Wind W. tide five hours' ebb ; cloudy. No arrivals. DEAL, Tuesday Morning, Wind W. ; strong. Passed—Mermaid, brig, of London, from the westward ; George, from Demerara ; St. Croix, from Honduras—all for London. LONDON DIOCESAN HOME MISSION. — Last even ing the annual meeting was held at Exeter Hall ; the Lord Bishop of London presided, and was supported by the Lord Bishop of Ripon, Lord Ebury, the Earl of Shaftesbury, the Rey. Dr. M'Neil, Rev. Dr. Moore, &c. The Secretary read the report, which stated this society was formed in 18 57, and its object was to reach the society of the Poorer classes whom the regular clergymen could not reach; also to seek out and employ such men as were. specially suited to the work of teaching the masses. These mission aries are employed under the approval of the Bishop. TILE PORTLAND GALLERY OF FINE ARTS. The preliminary business for opening this gallery for the exhibition of pictures by living artists has commenced, and it is understood that the public will be admitted to view the various works of art intended for exhibition in it towards the end of the present month. We have had the opportunity of inspecting several of the pictures designed to form part of the forthcoming exhibition, and can bear testimony to the talent displayed in their works by several deservedly-rising artists who will be contributors. Among these may be named Mr. James Meadows, whose mirthful representations of Water and Cloud have obtained for him no ordinary reputation. Mr. Bell Smith's picture, " The Infant Samuel," is treated with originality; and the paint ing, pure and masterly, evidences high promise. Mr. J. F. Herring and Mr. A. F. Rolfe will con tribute a picture entitled " The Farmer's Pet Team," displaying the former artist's peculiar genius. The background has been carefully and ably arranged, in harmony with the subject, by Mr. Rolfe. Mr. J. Adams, as a new contributor, will, we understand, forward some landscapes, singularly original in character. His large work, " The Otter Hunt," on the river Conway, is a truth ful representation of nature, and furnishes a striking contrast to the conventional mode of handling such subjects. Mr. J. Adams, jun., will furnish two cabinet pictures of Fruit, marked by genuine ex pression, and a thorough avoidance of the artificial style so commonly adopted in works of this class. This youthful artist is rapidly climbing the ladder after Lance. Mr. George Williams's charming re presentations of river scenery will ever command admiration ; and Mr. H. J. Rolfe's Finny Tribes are equally faithful, brilliant, and attractive. We fur ther learn that Mr. Bell will furnish some of his de lightful views taken during his recent continental tour. Mr. Godet's works will, we trust, find suit able positions on the walls of the institution, that their merits may be clearly seen. Mr, A. F. Rolfe's picture of " A Welsh River Scene" will, doubtless, claim no ordinary attention. The work depicts a party of anglers, who have been engaged in salmon fishing, weighing up the returns of the sport. To the lovers of the gentle craft this picture will have especial interest, reminding Piscator of joyous rambles by rivers, and . " Golden sands, and crystal brooks, With silver lines and silver hooks." We are glad to find that the following artists will also contribute to the exhibition :—Messrs. Percy, Gilbert, Moore, the two Pettitts, Meadows, jun., Walter Williams, &c. Whilst referring to the Portland Gallery, it will not be out of place to direct the attention of the committee to the hanging of the pictures. This has been an unpleasant subject in more than one institution of this kind, and complaints have been made as to the mode heretofore adopted at the Portland Gallery. A long continuous line of pic tures from the easel of a single artist is not only monotonous and unattractive, but partial and unfair in arrangement. Artists, if not a sensitive, are naturally an anxious race, and perhaps in some instances they may look upon their works with overweening fondness; but when the picture of an artist is admitted into the exhibition, he is entitled, as a matter of business—having paid his money for displaying his productions to the visitors of the institution—to the kindest consideration and to impartial treatment. We throw out these remarks at an opportune period, as the pictures for the Portland Gallery are to be hung up within the present or next week; and we trust it will be our pleasing duty to report, after the " opening day," that justice has been dealt out to all classes of artists, and that the show of pictures is worthy in every respect of a metropolitan exhibition. at lie pier e at ICC* ;ing , on .sth tivo )ied to c to cant since tion. bills k.pril oan, pay pril side rem- Lee of from :herd 871, r aro tight ands tho pool. ) tho l loth ange ider .ench essel )wri, )sity had ) in ests. :Ives ,ipu- Cork w in s pF forlit •daY, ,was ;ap, , e - Lriag. 21 101VEY MARKET AND CITY NEWS. CITY, Two o'CLocx. There has been very little animation in the Foreign and Colonial Produce Market during the last few days, although prices have in most in stances been fully supported. Tea has been inactive, but at full rates. For sugar the demand has been • chiefly f or home consumption, and the better descriptions have sold slowly, at former In the refined market, however, theretin o has been a slight improvement. Plan at Ceylon coffees continue in fair request, and the finer qualities have slightly advanced. Rice has been exceedingly dull with no alteration t o report in values. For rum there has been a st eady inquiry; and saltpetre and tallow have s uewn less firmness. The public sales of foreign a nd colonial wool have proceeded with greater animation, owing to the more favourable character °f the continental adviccs, and the prices current at the opening have been fully sustained. In the Liverpool Cotton Market yesterday a ste ady business was transacted, and 10,000 bales \T em sold at very full rates. The railway share market clo se d w ith rather more activity, and prices tended upwards. Money continues in moderae request at previous rates. The India Loan is now awaited with some interest by the investing public, who, it is t e lPected, will su bscribe liberally, notwithstanding t he discount to which most of the newly-created st ate securities have descended. Indian in ;estinents generally have been more inquired during the last few days, and there can be no ue nbt that the demand, if continued, will soon ca rry up the value of most of the railway shares, B erae of which are still at a discount, to a satisfac tory premium. While such opportunities are pre sented for the employment of capital with 5 Per Cent secured, no surprise can be felt at the disinclination shown by the public to give their s upport to new projects which yield no immediate return, and, after all, may prove wholly unsuc cessful. Further arrivals of gold are daily expected, and although a large proportion of• the remittance brought by the Red Jacket has been taken for the continent, a further accumulation at the Bank is fully expected. The settlement of the account in Consols has b een the chief business attended to to-day, but Prices have again exhibited indications of buoyancy, "ring to the favourable advices from the Conti nent. There has been very little altera tion, but the tendency seems upwards, the F unds being per cent. higher than at t he close of business yesterday. Consols are now about 96 to 961 for money, and 964 to 961 for April. A very buoyant tone seems to pervade, all departm en t s of the Stock Exchange. The lltew 3 Per Cents. and the Reduced are steady at 96a I. .lehequer Bills remain firm at 365. to 39s prem. India Stock has been dealt in at 220 and the De bentures at 99. Business in Foreign Securities has been exceed -111,..* active, and prices show a general improve rilt—Tu.rkish 6 per Cents. being 9 2 1 to 93 ; ditto, New Loan, 79 to 791; and the 4 per Cents. `:ave advanced to 1031 1; Sardinian, to 8 1 1 and ; Spanish 3 per Cents., to 441 and 44-t- ; ditto Deferred, to 30+ 1; Venezuelan Deferred, to 171 ; D utch 21 per. Cents., to 641 ; ditto 4 per Cents., to 50°1 and 100 ; and Equador Land Warrants, to P eruvian Russian 41 per Cents. are steady, at 1001; 41 per Cents., at 92 ex div. ; and the 3 t e r Cents, are firm at 741 1. The New Austrian °4l l is Ito 11 dis. A feature in the foreign mar ket is the rise of 1 per cent. in Chilian Scrip, which 44 advanced from 2 to 1 discount. In the Railway Share Market a rather large an lount of business has been transacted, and in I llost instances an improvement of about 1 to 1 per e ent• may be quoted. Caledonians and Eastern n ~ounties advanced ss. ; North British, 10s. ; South / V▪ esterns and Midlands, los.; and Great Westerns, ~.- L ancashire and Yorkshire, Blackwall, North !astern (Berwick), North Eastern (York), and south Eastern, £l. North Western have improved £1 ss. In the Foreign Market the transactions have been chiefly in Lombardo-Venetian, which have inlproved to 91, 9 for the Old Shares, and to 87-, 81 for the New ; Great Luxembourg and Dutch Rhenish also show a slight improvement. The Colonial lines are buoyant. East Indian have advanced about £1; Grand Trunk of Canada, £1; and Great Indian Peninsula, ss. to 10s. Joint-Suck Bank and Miscellaneous Shares are innderately active, and at improved rates. London and Westminster show an improvement of 10s. ; Bank of Australasia, £1 ; City Bank, 10s. ; and Iluion of Australia, ss. • Electric Telegraph, Pen insular and Oriental Steam, Red Sea Telegraph, and Sottish Australian Investment, brought fully forme r rates. BRITISH FUNDS—CLOSING PRICES. 3per Cent. Reduced Annuities 96i : Per Cent. Consols Annuities t' 4 ew 3 per Cent. Annuities 9 64 i Indi a Stock Ditto Debentures O9 81 Consols for Account 96 b bitto no xeheque o ßills, ' ' 39 r LI 000 2d. & ltd.. 36 9 I I FOREIGN FUNDS—CLOSING PRICES. Brazilian 5 per Cent. Ditto 1858, 41 per Cent. 9414 i Buenos Ayres, - 6 per Cent. Ditto Account Ditto Deferred uhili an , 6 per Cent. , Ditto 41 per Cent. Scrip 1 2 1 1 d t Tiador New CoßsOlidated Ditto Provisional Land Warrant sa 6 'eruvian 41 per Cent Ditto Account Ditto 3 per Cent. Ditto Account Russian, 1822, £ St., 5 per Cent llO Ditto 41 per Cent. Sardinian, 5 per Cent r , Ditto Account Spanish 3 per Cent. 441 Ditto Account • . 441 Ditto New Deferred, 3 per Cent. — Ditto Account Turkish 6 per Cent 931- Ditto Account ' 921 13 1 Ditto New Loan Ditto Account - 4 i i x. d Ditto Guaranteed, 4 per Cent. Ditto Account Venezuelan 6 per Cent. Ditto Deferred Dividends on the above payable in London. Belgian, 41 per Cent., Ex. 25f Dutch Exch ange , 12 Guil. 24 per Cent 641 4 Ditto Certificates, 4 per Cent. THREE O'CLOCK. Consols, Money 96 4- Consols for Account LITERATU iE. Wrongs which cry .for Redress. Letter I. By Thomas Hopley, F.S.S. Houlston and Wright. Mr. Hopley is well known as an earnest labourer in the cause of human advancement. He has-striven hard to diffuse a knowledge of the great truths of physiology through all classes, and we have no doubt he has been the means of instructing many in those laws of nature, which, if infringed ; bring such a heavy punishment. The necessity of air and exercise have formed the subjects of several of his admirable lectures, which treat equally of the requirements of rich and poor. But• the wants and sufferings of the labouring classes he strives more especially to impress upon us. He appeals to the powerful and wealthy on behalf of those who cannot make their own voices heard. He speaks for those who have beyond all others a claim on the attention of society—the honest, labouring poor, whose highest ambition is " a fair day's wages for a fair day's work," and whose life-long struggle for an honest livelihood is sorely hindered by grievances beyond their reach. He does not solicit alms for those who can work for themselves —he does not ask for aid for any eleemosyna7 institution—excellent as many of these undoubt edly are. He asks for justice, simple justice—that men should not be forced to labour beyond their strength for an unnatural time, on pain of offending their employers ; but more especially that women and children should not be forced to labour for sixteen or eighteen hours a-day in a temperature of 130 deg.. His revelations respecting the bleaching and dyeing works arc especially painful, and it is with great regret we see that a motion brought forward the other night in the House of Commons to effect an improvement in this matter, was dis ntissed, on the ground that it had been decided a year or two back, when a committee of inquiry was held on the subject, that the time•had not arrived for legislation, and that nothing had arisen to change that decision. It is almost incredible that, with such a mass of evidence before them, the noble lords and right.honourable gentlemen who composed that committee should have arrived at that conclu sion. There are plenty of eager agitators for political questions; there is no lack of ready re formers on other points, of eloquent speakers to up hold the dignity of the constitution, and to descant on the danger of its overthrow. Diplomacy, cur rency, the reform of the representation, the im provement of our military and naval services, can find advocates, orators, logicians, but the plea of the women carried fainting to the " wasting shops," and the children falling asleep standing at their work, is no reason for interfering with the interests of the master manufacturers. A few extracts from the evidence will speak for themselves. State to the committee what the usual hours were ? . . • The cases that I particularly noticed were those of young children and women, in which a set of young persons of the ages of from nine to nineteen, twenty, and twenty-two, worked, as an ordinary thing, from six in the morning to twelve at night (eighteen hours) ; that was varied on the Friday, in which, beginning on Friday morning, they worked all Friday night, and down to tea-time, which was about five or six on the Saturday evening (thirty-five or thirty-six hours). Did that frequently occur ?--That was, with some sets, the constant work. . . . A young woman suffered from it, which caused me to investigate the case, and she, I know, had been working at that rate for three weeks constantly ; . . . her constitution suffered so much that she never recovered ; she died under my ministration. Do you recollect any other particular instance of over work ?—I asked her the longest time she ever worked at a stretch, and she said " three nights and two days ;" being about sixty hours; in which she never left the works, and never paused, except a short time for meals. Can you tell the committee what ages girls generally begin to work at?—They work as young as nine or ten; I think nine and ten, to eleven. Are you abl e t o say whether girls of that very young age workhours ; the a 8 : t nu m beralllmeustivork together. Will F—They work the same Will you give your opinion as to the effect of these long hours upon the workers ?—lt struck me that it was injur ing their h ea lth very seriously ; that they premature l y grew old, and, except the strong ones, none could stand it. Many of them died. [Witness " did not single Mr. t out for especial animadversion, but spo k e again ; Ainsworth credit for being t the system;" he gave Mr. " most anxiousi to mprove the condition of his people."] Lord John Manners—Therefore you would, upon the whole, think that Mr. Ainsworth's works afforded rather a favourable than an unfavourable specimen of the manage ment of bleaching works hi that part of the country should. Mr. ButP — Would you consider that if, under the do minion of a benevolent man, anxious to promote the tem poral and spiritual welfare of his people, these excessive long hours prevailed it would be a very strong argument in favour of legislative interference ?—Decidedly. In other words they doubtless suffered more. SAMUEL PRICE, examined— you awaken them (alluding to the little 1 13 il i. l i d t r t— en H of oN di theva d b o ve-mentioncd establishment, when they, fell asleep " standing at their work") F Many a time by shouting, and at other times getting a board and rap ping it on the table, making a loud report that used to startle them, and I could keep them awake then for an hour, or more than that, perhaps, by frightening them. I believe Mr. Ainsworth is considered a good employer ? —Yes, he is cm sidered a very honourable gentleman. Albert Bowley is an operative employed in the trade ; is well acquainted with its customs ; has known numbers of women and girls at work in a very high temperature "from six o'clock in the morning" till "two and three" the fol lowing morning ; has " known them not to go home for two or three nights ;" " they have laid down upon the pieces to rest themselves Mr. Davidson—Do you mean to say that if the work people did not worlj the extra hours, or if any one or two of them.declined to work the extra hours, they would be discharged ?—Yes. Have you known more than one instance of persons being told that if they would not work the time they must be discharged ?—I hitve known h to be done repeatedly in our place. . I have known some of the girls to be so trtated. Henry Waring has had forty-two years' experience of various bleaching establishments : Mr. Kirk—Has it appeared to you that the hours of work were too long ?—Yes ; much too long ; but if we did not do it, they would turn us off. [Had known " many families" go on without undressing for more than five days and nights in succession.] Thomas Blackledge Garstang, Esq., had been en gaged in professional duties among bleach-works " fifteen or sixteen years," and during that time "had been fre quently in the habit of attending families of persons em ployed" in such works : Mr. Butt—DO you mean to say that there is, on the part of the working people, any reluctance to afford information on matters of this kind ?—A very great reluctance, and they are very suspicious if any person makes an inquiry, lest their information should come to the proprietors of the works, and thereby they might be dismissed. Do you think that any persons employed in bleaching works could refuse to work those long hours ?—They could, but it must be at the penalty of dismissal. If thus dismissed, What are they to do? Persons having been occupied from very childhood in the manner exempli fied by reports needs must be exceedingly ill-fitted, and many of them totally unfitted, to turn their hands to new employments, even though such were open. What then arc they to do ? Parochial aid for those have been offered work but "refuse" because the hours are too long, is alto gether out of the question. JOSEPH CROOK, Esq., M.P. for Bolton, examined : Mr. Clark—lf a man refused to work long hours, is it your opinion that that man would be dismissed ?—Yes ; and he could not get work, if he made that a condition, any where, except at Mr. Sagar's and a few other places • there fore that man must starve. Of course women and Children are more helpless than men. Do the employers oblige children to work in that man ner ?—Certainly ; they are indispensable to the process. Mr. Parke—lf a child were taken off the over-work, would that involve the discharge of the parent from the bleaeh-works ?—Yes ; the children must necessarily con form to the customs and rules of the bleach-works, or else be immediately discharged. - Terrible as these long hours of labour must be to the strongest men, when continued for many weeks, the sufferings of the women and children are far greater. The evidence of some of the young boys and girls plainly shows this. Mary Ann Smith.—" Last Saturday I was twelve years old. . . . I came here nearly three years ago. Six times in that time I have worked from six in the morning till half-past two the next" (twenty hours and a half). " Once I worked from six one morning till six the next morning" (twenty-four hours). " I have to rub my instep every night before I can get my clogs off. The skin cracks, and I cannot abide sometimes. One of my fingers is gathering from cut by the salvage, and the other is run ning." Amelia Wood (fifteen next July).—" I have been at this work about three years. We often begin at five or six in the morning, and oftenest leave off at eleven or twelve. . . . Sometimes we do not leave off till three or four in the morn ing. My fingers are often very bad ; the cloth wears them through." Sore feet, likewise—the natural consequences of standing so many hours, and frequently upon very hot floors—are very general, especially among the little girls : "My feet are almost always sore" (No. 226).—" Have had 'the aching legs' many a time" (No. 228).—" Ankle bone was growing out " (No. !73).—" The skin comes off, and they are very sore" (No. 274).—" I have often sore feet ; they bleed sometimes, and my ankle bone has been growing out" (No. 277).—" The skin is off very often, and the soles of my feet are blood-raw" (No. 279).—" My feet are often blood-raw"— _ [How can we comment upon facts like these 2] " are often blood-raw, and they pain me" (No. 281).—" My feet blister at bottom, and are very sore. Mother puts some stuff to them that makes the new skin come" (No. 285). " I have always sore feet in summer time" (No. 533). " My feet are often sore winter and summer" (No. 536). " Feet often so sore that the skin conies off with my stock ings" (No. 504).—" If you could have seen my feet last night" (No. 491).—" Worked when the skin was off my feet very badly" (No. 492).—" I have often had the skin off my feet" (No. 232).—" Her feet very often get raw" (No. 448).—" My feet were always sore in summer;_ they were blood-raw at bottom, and my ankles are swelled with a deal of pain" (No. 463.) Equally painful to contemplate is the "dead-beaten" state of the workers : " I have scores of - times seen both men and children asleep at their work, and very dangerous work, too" (No. 10).—" Very often they go to sleep over their work" (No. 51):—" I have had almost every day to take a board and beat it on the table to waken them, as they were slumber ing at their work." (Observe the expression, reader—' at their work'). "At that time they would be hooking cloth ; and while they should be doing it, I see them nodding and trying to catch the, hook" (No. 83).—" As to the older ones, I have often and often seen them down asleep, not being able to hold up for their work. If the manager had gone out, they would drop down in a minute in the packinkg boxes and go to sleep" (No. 68)—" We have often gone to sleep' on the tables, or with our heads on the wet cloth, or anywhere where we could sit still" (No. 378)—'' The little ones very often fall asleep standing to their work" — [Mothers of little ones, you will not, you cannot read and lay this letter by. You have a mission here. Say not that you can do but little in the matter. Oh I woman, your power is as immense for good as it is immense for evil. Let but the maternal feeling of the country rouse itself, and not another session shall pass away without the rescue of these little ones.] — They "fall asleep standing to their work. They fall asleep standing before their hooks. I have to keep them awake ; and my heart is so sore for them that I cannot speak to them. I have worked at bleach-work, in the finishing-room, twenty years, and it has always been so in all the works where I have been" (No. 462).—" It falls very hard upon the weaker boys. I have often seen them sleeping on their legs, and I have done so often myself. Their whole frame suffers. I have known at least eight in the last twelve years who have fallen into consumption and died." (No. 414). Well may Mrs. Browning, in her pathetic " Cry of the Children," speak of these hapless little ones as " Martyrs by the pang without the palm." Surely it is a disgrace to our legislation that such a system shouldbepermitted. Without undue inter ference with private interests, or weak sentimen• tality,such facts as are quoted from the parliamen tary " Minutes of Evidence," call loudly for imme diate attention. Let not those who labour in the good cause be discouraged, let them remember the strenuous opposition encountered by the Ea 1 of Shaftesbury, when, as Lord Ashley, he won the enduring gratitude of the factory labourers. And let those legislators, who tell us that the time for interference has not come, remember that they are dooming hundreds of helpless women and children to years of suffering . , and perhaps lifelong infirmity in consequence. We have no space to allude fur ther to the evidence of the dressmaker's appren tices, though that system also calls imperatively for a thorough reformation. We can only direct the attention of the public to the revelations of Mr. Hopley's pamphlet, and thank him for having brought forward the evidence and explanations in a condensed and comprehensible form. The Crescent and the Cross. By Eliot Warburton Hurst and Blaciett. Mr. Warburton's delightful work forms the third volume of Messrs. Hurst and Blackett's new series. The 15th edition of a book scarcely calls for criti cism; we need only commend the cheap and hand some edition which now places it within the reach of a large class of readers. Its success has been unquestionable ; and, as no library would be com plete without it, every purchaser of moderate means who is desirous of possessing a compact and handsome volume should secure this opportunity of adding it to their book shelves. THIS DAY'S MARKETS. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 8, 1859. HAY MARKETS. SMITHFIELD.—Meadow hay, £2 15s to £4 lOs ; clover, do., £4 5s to £5 5s ; and straw, £ 1 5 s to £ 1 lOs per load. Trade steady: CUMBEILLAND.—Meadow hay, £2 15s to Xi 10s; clover do., £4 5s to £5 5s ; and straw, £1 6s to £1 lOs per lead. A fair demand, at our quotations. WHITECHAPEL.—Meadow hay, £2 15s to £4 lOs ; clover do., £4 5s to £5 ss; and straw, £1 4s to £1 9s per load. A moderate inquiry. COLONIAL. TEA.—The market continues very firm, although little business has been transacted. Common Congou is quoted 13id. to 131 d. per lb. SUGAR.—Few inquiries have been made, but in most instances previous rates are current. In the refined mar ket, however, a steady business has been done, chiefly for home consumption, and prices are steadily maintained. t CoFFEE—Plantation Ceylon continues in active demand, and a rather large business has been transacted at full rates. Stocks on board, compared with those at tha same period of last year, show a eeficiency of 300 tons. RICE.—The inquiries continue very limited, and little alteration can be quoted in values. Rum.—The market is dull, no dealings of any importance having been reported. SALTPETRE. — At public sales only a portion of the quan tity offered found buyers, and prices were not quite so buoy ant. 8i per cent. refraction sold for 40s 9d, and fli per cent. 41s 6d per cwt. WooL.—The public sales of foreign and colonial wool are proceeding with rather more animation, owing to the favour able character of the continental advices, and previous rates are fully supported. TALLOW.—Thcre has been a very quiet market, and the demand for consumption has been very inactive. Prices, consequently, show a downward tendency. P.Y.C. on the spot 52s to 52s 3d, and April to June and last three months, 52s per cwt. RAILWAY BRIDGE ACROSS • THE THAMES.—The works of the railway bridge over the Thames at Chelsea, the only railway bridge across the Thames in London granted, are in rapid progress. By the timo it is con structed the Pimlico railway and station will be finished, and Belgrave-square will be within the sound of the rail way whistle, giving its aristocratic inhabitants convenient railway conveyance to Brighton, Hastings; Portsmouth, the Crystal Palace, &c. MORE ANCIENT DISCOVERIES IN OLD FISH• STREET, CITY.—As some workmen were pulling down a very old house in Old Fish-street, City, supposed to have been built in the reign of Charles the Second, they dis • covered a very ancient entrance of a doorway, which the general appearance of the carved work denotes to have been a very ancient inn. The carving consists of vine leaves and bunches of grapes cut out of solid oak, and in a high: state of preservation. The workmen have found also several coins of the reign of Charles, which are also in good preservation, but some of which they sold. Maitlamd says that several houses near this spot were built of timber, in a very substantial and beautiful manner. No doubt other interesting relics may be found when they mach the foun dation, IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YEsTERiIit.) (Continued from the Sun of last night) EAST INDIA LOAN BILL. Mr. BRIGHT said he was not about to follow the right hon. gentleman, or to attempt to answer some points in his speech which he thought were not very sound, but he would say generally that he thought he rather contradicted himself in what he had been saying, because he wished that the revenue of India should be kept separate from the revenue of England, and yet ho proposed that under certain circumstances certain expenditure which had been hitherto borne by the Indian revenue should be borne by the Eng lish exchequer. It appeared to him that there was very little difference with regard to the future between the plan which was launched, he thought rather unfortunately, by the noble lord a few nights ago, and the plan laid down by the right hon. gentleman. But he Was anxious to address a few words to the house on this question, which they were forced at last to consider was one of great magnitude. The noble lord (Lord Stanley) made a long and able speech in introducing this bill. He explained with great fairness the condition of the Indian finances, and, except a little colour ing which his lordship's position compelled him to give to the statement, he had nothing to complain of respecting it. He read the speech with great care, and he confessed that when he came to the end of it he felt great anxiety, and he thought the case the noble lord had laid before the house and the country was calculated to excite their alarm. The noble lord showed them that it was impossible to conceive anything in a worse condition than the finances of India. The finances of a country were almost everything to that country; they meant public order, the industry of the people. Through that single department of finance he thought that there was no government in Europe or the world dist was more deserving of an emphatic condemna tion than the government of Idia. The facts were in so small a compass that he would re-state some of them. The debt of India was about £80,000,000. He excluded the sum that was to be paid at some remote day to the proprietors of East India Stock, and he excluded also the guarantee of public works in India, which stood of course altogether on another basis. The noble lord showed them at the same time that the expenses of the Government were constantly increasing, and to make that which was so bad much worse, he showed them that the revenue was diminish ing. Now a Government with a constantly increasing debt, a constantly increasing expenditure, and a constantly dimi nishing revenue, was in a position of great danger, and was going on rapidly to an abyss which he should not attempt to describe. And it was an unfortunate thing that the Go vernment of India, owing to its excessive borrowing and its excessive want of faith towards those from whom it had borrowed, had almost lost its credit, and it would require all the management and honesty of the noble lord to reform it in one particular. At that moment the noble lord was asking from them powers to borrow seven millions in this country, and at the same time there was open in India a loan at the rate of not less than 51. per cent., and the Go vernment, he believed, undertook the repayment of that loan at a period when there was not the remotest chance that the money could be repaid. The noble lord made use of an argument which was very common, that the debt only amounted to two years' revenue, while that of England amounted to 10 or 12 years' revenue. But it was not a states manlike view to compare India with a country which had got into debt more than any other country in Europe. The argument would be bad if the comparison was just. But the comparison was not just. We knew very well that through the increase of machinery, of productive power and of capi tal, the debt of England was much less onerous on the people of England now than it was some years ago. But that was not the case in India. The noble lord admitted that there was no elasticity in the revenue of India, and the increase of its debt must necessarily result in a greater deficit. They came then to the expense, which the noble lord admitted was increasing; and he (Mr. Bright) was prepared to assert to the house that there did not exist at this moment in the hands of the noble lord or his council any control—he had almost said any check, whatever over the increased expendi ture of the revenues of India. If the noble lord would tell them all that he thought about it, he would tell them that at this moment the funds of the Indian government were being poured out like water in every part of India, and that there was no responsibility and no check whatever; while, at the same time the landed revenue, which was th most perma nent of any of the sources of revenue in India, was deelin • ing, and the revenue from opium was in great danger of falling off almost altogether; that it was just possible, nay it was probable, that the Chinese government, having been compelled to admit opium, would permit it to be edltivated in that country. The state of things he was describing had not arisen from the recent rebellion ; it had existed before the rebellion. For 13 years out of 14, in the lifetime of any body in that house, there had been a deficit, and the rebel lion had only produced an aggravation of that state of things. The right hon. gentleman said the government was changed in form. The fact was that the government wss changed only in name. He believed there had not been the least change in principle. An hon. gentleman, who was re cently a member of that house, but who was now a member of the Indian Council—he alluded to - Mr. Mangles—was examined the other day before a committee sitting upstairs, and he was asked if he approved of the present government of India. He answered with great frankness that of course he did ; that it was composed of the same men, and it was conducted on the same principles, as before. The noble lord would understand that he was not condemning him in any thing he was saying. One of his objects was to point out to hitn'that however honest and enlightened was the minister who might be at the head of Indian affairs in this country, under the organisation that now existed in India it was ut terly impossible that he should bring about changes in that country which'were absolutely necessary to restore Indian finance to a condition of soundness. He should like the house to consider for a moment whether it was possible to apply a remedy to this state of things. This India Loan Bill was not the last they-would have. Let them compare themselves for a moment with loath e states. It was said WO had conferred untold—no doubt they were untold—advantages on the na tives of India, but was it not a remarkable fact that while the government of India was in the hands of 20 or 30 native princes, every one of them, without exception, was able to carry on his government without debt, and they had gene rally a surplus. Indeed, one of the great temptations to the British autho'rities in India had been to secure the sur plus. He believed the noble lord could state that when the kingdom of Oude was annexed, it was found that there was a considerable sum in the exchequer, and that the revenue of Oude amounted to nearly double the expenses necessary to govern Oude. Well, we had abolished all these govern ments, and had spent all their revenues, and had borrowed eighty millions sterling, and spent that also, and they had had increasing year by year a deficit till it had become so appalling that on both sides of the house they had been discussing whether it would be necessary to bring in, not only the authority but the security, the guarantee of Eng land to raise a sufficient sum of money to enable them to carry on the government of India. Now, there was not the smallest thing like a remedy proposed. It was more debt, more taxes, no better government, and as far as he could see, very little of that description of public works which was necessary to develop with any success the i- dustry of the people of India. The noble lord was not in fault at all. He knew long before he held his present office what his opinions were, but bein g in office lie was now responsible for providing a remedy. The right hon. member for Radnor thought that we should pay a part of the Indian army, and that that would balance the Indian finances. But it would not balance the English finances, and if the right hon. gen tleman was looking forward to again being Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was rather surprised that he should have made such a suggestion as that. He (the hon. mem- . ber) was aware that a diminution in the rate of salaries would form but a limited resource; but still it was ad mitted that there was no service in the world that was so highly —he might say extravagantly—paid as the civil ser vice of India. The principle of that service was never how to economise, but how best to plant upon the people of India the largest number of our countrymen, who might live there very comfortably for not a very long period and then return home to occupy a very respectable if not high posi tion in English society. But was there any reason why the officials of India should thus be paid? Fifty or a hundred years ago, it was said that our eastern possessions were so far away that men who went there seldom returned till they had grey hairs and bad livers. (A laugh.) But the distance had of late been much shortened, and ho (Mr. Bright) did not believe one-tenth of what was said aboutthe climate. Several years ago, when he had a committee on the supply of cotton, he had an opportunity of seeing many gentlemen who had been in India for 15 or 20 years. Since then he had seen scores, he might almost say hundreds, of the same class, and they appeared to enjoy just as good health as if they had been spending one-half of the year in London, and the other half in the Highlands of Scotland. (Hear.) He dismissed, therefore, all idea that there was anything in the nature of the service or in the climate of India which rendered it necessary to pay such extravagant salaries. If there was, why did they not pay their military officers or their chaplains on a similar scale? They did not pay those gentlemen any unreasonable sums, nor did those who were engaged in agriculture or commerce in India—a class which he regretted to say was a very small one—reap profits that were so much in excess of the ordinary remune ration enjoyed by those who were engaged in similar pur suits. (Hear.) Or, again, compare the salaries received in India with those paid in Ceylon, and it would be found they were enormously larger; some being as large again, and others 50 per cent. greater; and yet the conditions of service in India were at least as good as those in Ceylon, and the climate at least as favourable to European life. (Hear, hear.) If the noble lord saved anything out of the civil salaries he would be able to do one of the three things, any of which would be very advantageous. He might em ploy a much larger number of Europeans, or he might' em ploy a much better class of officials (and of native officials there were 10 for every European), or lastly, whatever was saved would go into the Indian treasury, and render it less requisite for the noble lord to borrow at 6 per cent. in India or to come here for leave to borrow money from year to year. (Hear, hear.) But it was quite true that the great source of expense was, after all, the military establish ments ; and he was glad to hear what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman (Sir G. Lewis). It was right that the moral and Christian people of this country should know that, with all our civilisation, all our boasting, all our mis sionaries, and all our talk about the Bible—it was right that the people should know that there was every year wrung from the toiling millions of this country and of r India no less a sum than 35 millions sterling, for . purely military purposes. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord told them that we load 91,000 European soldiers in India; iu addition to a native force of 243,000, making thus an army of 334,000 men. (Hear, hear.) Every historian of India and every Englishman who had resided in India, was agreed that in the whole world there was no peOple more industri ous, more docile, or more submissive to authority, by nature and habit, than the people of British India. Governedwith ordinary wisdom and justice they would require to keep them in subjection, not an army of 334,000 men, but simply a well organised police. (Hear, hear.) it would be better, and the right hon. gentleman (Sir G. Lewis) was very near saying the same thing, it would be far better for the honour of England, for the good of India, and for the credit of human nature, that we should leave India altogether if we could not maintain our power:without this immense cost, and if these great calamities were to look us in the face from year to year, as they would do unless some great change were made. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord could not save enough from the civil salaries to make his finances balance ; but he might save enough by diminishing the armed force. Such a step must, however, be combined with other changes, or it would meet with no complete success. In the first place, everybody who had written about India said there was no country in the world in which there was such a combination of soil and climate, of people and industry, and even of water, if they would but garner it up at the proper season — every one admitted that there was no country where there were the elements of such abundance and prosperity than were to be found in British India. (Hear, hear.) Every thing that nature could give she had bestowed with no scanty hand ; but the whole system of the Government had been to thwart the benevolence and the goodness of God to His creatures. At the present time the industries of India were almost nothing ; and all the public works put toge ther did not approach what had had been done in any mo derate sized English county. The noble lord knew that with an insecure ownership of land the industry of every country was garotted and could not properly extend itself. He knew also that there were districts in which from want of roads it was itteilfliii - poiSible•for the natives - to send -their-pros. dace cloian to the coast; and he knew, further, that there weed filth-lets in which any amount he might choose to lay out in conatftiefiffg works to store water in the rainy sea son, and to disperse it dor the soil in the dry, would in two years be repaid twentyfold, and w'o'uld continue to be a never failing source of wealth. Was the house willing that the Indian Government, like some old lumbering waggon, should be dragged along its old ruts with the same slowness AV Welt had always; characterised its pace, and with the same peril to all that were concerned in it? Last year, on the third reading of the hill, ho (Mr. Bright) stated at great length his views on the subject of government. He told the house that, in his opinion; the government at home should be one of absolute simplicity; while there should be pursued in India itself a process of decentralisation. Ho argued that it would be obviously impossible for any governor-general to rule with success a population which was variously reckoned at from 150 to 200 millions ; and he would now ' read an extract from a letter written from the Native Asso ciation at Calcutta to that at Bombay, with regard to this very question of centralisation :—" The committee can con ceive of no system of adnilnistration more prejudicial to the improvement of the various races inhabiting India, and more pregnant with mischief to the essential interests of govern remit, than the deep-laid, wide-spread, and elaboratecentrali sation which now prevails. A central power, however skil ful and enlightened, cannot, of itself, embrace all the details of the existence of so vast a nation—or rather of so many nations—as those of India. Such vigilance ceeeeds the powers of man. The tendency of centralisation, as you are aware, is uniformity ; but the distinguishing feature o f the Indian communities is variety. A single nation may thrive under centralisation, for then the principle of the unity of action has a wide field for play. But centralisation for a number of nations, each at a different stage of progress, and with various degrees of intelligence, can have no principle for its basis, for it is the practical confusion of all principles imaginable." He (Mr. Bright) quite agreed with the opinion expressed by these Indian gentlemen —intelligent and respectable gentlemen they were—forit was impossible for any governor-general at Calcutta,. whatever Governte power they might choose to give him, to bring the mental eye to bear upon every portion of this vast dominion. The proposition which he (Mr. Bright) suggested was that they should revert to the ancient plan, and establish something like municipal presidencies in India. (Hear, hear.) There was another point not less essential. They must seek to draw into those councils and incorporate into the Government the best and most intelligent natives. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord told them the other night that to raise the revenue so as to balance the expenditure would be extremely difficult. The noble lord could not do like his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the country—he could not lay new taxes upon the people. He might easily commit some blunder that would create a feeling of alarm amongst millions, and a disbelief in the good faith of the government, even if it did not actually stimulate revolt. But if there were in each local council two or three, or four natives—he was not pleading for a native majority—he believed that they might suggest taxes that would fall upon the rich and spare the vast body of the poor. He believed, too, that if the Indian people were satisfied as to the justice of their rulers and the necessity of the demand upon them, they would submit to new imposts like any other people. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord committed a fatal error last year, when in obedience to his colleagues he consented to leave India in the hands of those who had been the instruments of its ancient misgovernment. Thenoblelord might not have had any votes of want of confidence passed upon him by the council; but it was possible for men sitting at the same board to throw at every step difficulties in his way that he might find himself utterly unable to overcome. From the correspondence which came by every mail from India to an association with which he had for many years been connected, he (Mr. Bright) knew perfectly well that not even the shadow of a change had been brought about by the act of last year. (Hear, hear.) For instance, he had some time ago asked a ques tion respecting Dhar. Dhar was a principality , with a revenue of £50,000 a-year, and was governed by a rajah 13 years of age. No charge had ever been made against the rajah himself, but on the pretext that some one connected with him had not been sufficiently zealous on behalf of the British Government, his principality had been " annexed." It had been the custom to sneer at the use of that word across the Atlantic ; but it had become a perfectly English word, so far, at least, as our conduct in India was concerned. It was understood that the noble lord did not approve of the annexation of Dhar, and that instructions had been sent out to India with respect to it. But the annexation had not been relinquished ; and it was said that no papers or explanations on the subject had been sent home. In fact, it was clear that the Indian government at home knew no more of the afEtir than if no dspatch had been sent out.', the Government in India did not care one Straw for what the Government in England might choose to do. (Cheers.) It would not be polite in any society, and it would certainly not be suitable in that house, to quote the language in which some of the officials in India endeavoured to describe how very little they cared for what had been done. Now, unless they were made to care, they would soon drag this country into greater cala mities than ever. (Cheers.) It was the duty of the noble lord to let those men know that if they neglected the orders sent to them from this country they would be instantly recalled. It was his duty to impress upon our great pro-consuls in India that there was a power which, though distant, could pull them up and check them in their career of wrong. (Cheers.) Look at the proclamation which the noble lord had sent out. What could be more admirable than its tone and intention ? Did anybody suppose that the noble lord was dishonest in issuing that proclamation, or that the Queen did not mean what she said when she put her name to that neweltarter of India? Of course nobody doubted either the noble lord or the Queen. That proclamation was a reversal of all our past policy; but its execution was left in the hands of those who had been '.nstruments of the old policy ; and un less there was a Minister in this country who would not allow it to be set-at nought, unless that Minister was well backed up by his colleagues, and supported by that house, not five years would elapse before his proclamation would be no better than waste paper. (Cheers.) With regard to the question of the debt, lie did not think that any person who had lent his money to the Indian Government had a shadow of a claim, either moral or legal, upon the taxes of England. (Hear, hear.) He knew his security; he had bargained • for his rate of interest ; and that rate had been double what-he would have received if he had lent his money to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) At the same time he (Mr. Bright) was bound to say, that there-was no real justice in the people of England fixing this burden upon the inhabitants of. India. .(Hear, hear.) Did anybody mean to say, for instance, that it . was right to tax the people of India for the debt incurred in the Affghau war, which had beenundertaken in further ance of a policy adopted by the cabinet at home ? (Hear, I hear.) So, with regard to the late revolt, which he (Mr. I Bright) ventured to say would cost not less than forty I millions sterling, and which he was surprised to hear the right hon. baronet (Sir G. C. Lewis) say was an unjustifiable one. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord the member for the City (Lord J. Russell) had just published a work in which he ex- I pressed a strong opinion as to the justifiableness of the American War of Independence ' • and when he recollected how the right hon. baronet had last year pointed out the atrocities of the Indian Government, he thought it was , rather inconsistent in him now to say that there had been , neither cause nor excuse for the conduct of the people of • India during the last two years. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Bright) did not want to enter into any defence of that con duct ; but he wished to see the Government of India based • upon a justice which the people of that country themselves could feel and see, and which would secure our power without the necessity of keeping up an army of 334,000 men. (Cheers.) In the meantime, he thought that £40,000,000 would be a grievous burden to place upon the taxes of a • people, seeing that the revolt had been caused by our mis management. (No, no.) An hon. gentlemen said " No." `Well, he (Mr. Bright) would not dispute the point with him ; but if the hon. gentleman was neither an Englishman nor a native of India, but was writing a history of our transactions during the last hundred or even twenty years, he would come to the conclusion that it would be more just that we should ourselves pay the expenses of the war we had undertaken, in order to re-subjugate the country. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Bright) was sorry to speak so long in derogation of his countrymen, but •he was convinced that the course we had pursued had only led to the logical and inevitable consequences ; and that unless some body undertook to reverse the system which had hitherto been followed, we might in ten years have another great revolt, the results of which might be much more disas trous than anything that happened within the last two years. (Hear, hear.) If the Government could only see how much more we might profit by a just and wise policy he might hope that the principle of pure selfishness would lead them to reverse the helm. He knew how greatly the trade of Manchester had lately been increased by the de mand which had sprung up for cotton goods for India. No doubt much of that demand arose from the mode in which the local government was squandering its money, but he also knew that we could not advance one mile into the country without finding acustomer waiting for us ; and he knew that the extension of our market amongst a popula tion of 150,000,000 to 200,000,000 could practically have no limit for at least a long time to come, if we would only give our subjects a chance by securing to them the free enjoy ment of that which they produced. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the noble lord would believe that he (Mr. Bright) had not made a single observation with a view of finding fault with anything lie had done since he came into office, but he besought him to deliberate well upon the experience he had gained during the twelve months he had been in his present position, and if he shohld come to the con clusion that changes were necessary, he hoped that he would be prepared either as Minister for India or in an unofficial situation, to declare to the house what his ex perience had taught him. He hoped he would declare that the present arrangement was a provisional and experimental one only, and that the Indian Government must be entirely reconstructed, not only in England, but in India itself. Mr. AYRTON thought it would be most unfortunate if the speech of his hon. friend went forth to the public as an authoritative declaration that the : finances of India were at all in a desperate condition. India had, in fact, been in a position tenfold worse than her present one ; and the govern ment had in vain before now to offer not six, but n per cent. There was no doubt much more confidence felt in India itself as to the strength and efficiency of its new ad ministration than appeared to exist in this country. For his own part, he (Mr. Ayrton) expected to see a considerable improvement in the revenue, and especially that arising from the land tax. He believed with a wise and judicious administration, the increase would more than cover the additional charges which had been thrown upon the country by the recent disturbances. What was wanted was that the tenure of land should be put upon a better footing. Some of the officials in India had gone as far as to say that the Government was the absolute owner of the soil ; and he hoped that the noble fiord would make it clear that the Government did not in reality claim any more than a mere right to levy taxes upon it. The land tax under the Hindoos had been 30 per cent. The Mahommedans in- creased that amount; and in some cases we had raised it still higher. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord would com mit a fatal error if he remitted the tax from any portion of the land on the ground that it was waste land. It would be a mere bonus to the neighbouring occupiers, and the re sult would be to arrest the growth of the hind revenue. With the formation of roads the unoccupied lands would e be taken up, and would yield additional revenue. did noble lordcalreci down to th i spokeoltleiepprersgt time. He oessoflndia,s,bdudtthhaist flabetasadkids of the Bombay railway had been con structed, and that it paid 41 per cent. But there had since been opened 130 miles of that line, and the return was 61 per cent. Other 50 miles were now open, and the return was equally great. When these means of communication were complete, as they would be in about four years, he believed that the returns of the land revenue would be equal to all the claims upon them. In some cases the blunder had been committed which was made with respect to the land tax at home—the revenue had been capitalised ; but this was an operation which ought only to be performed when interest was very low. He considered the proposition of Sir G. Lewis, that there must be an entire separation between the Indian and the Imperial treasuries wrong in principle and impracticable. He recommended the Government of this country to borrow money in this country at 31 per cent., and to lend it to India at a rate of interest that would insure the repayment of the principal in 15 or 20 years. He suggested various reforms in the details of the Indian Go vernment ; and gave a qualified assent to Mr. Bright's pro- posal to admit the natives of India to a participation in the Government, and, with him, in order to keep down expen diture,_recommeAded the reduction of the salaries of civilians. Mr. EWART differed from Mr. Bright in respect to the financial prospects of India; he expected from the improve ment of the means of intercommunication a great devehp mant of the resources of that country. Mr. WILSON had not only no apprehensions as to the financial prospects of India, but he had the greatest her, of them. Almost every increase of the Indian debt had arisen from wars, and - from expenditure upon public works which would be reproductive. If the increased interest upon the Indian debt were.taken at £2,000,000, and the expenditure upon public works at £1,000,000, and there should be a de ficiency of X 3,000,000, he should not despair of seeing in the next three or four years such an increase of the revenue from existing sources as would enable the Government of India to bear this charge. He disputed some of the conclusions of Mr. Bright regarding the land revenue of India : he condemned the policy of alienatirig i n perpetuity waste or jungle lands, as repeating the error committed by Lord Cornwallis in his permanent settlement ; and he justified the views of the late and former Govern ments in relation to railways in India and to certain branches of the Indian revenue. He did not anticipate a falling off in the revenue derived from either salt or opium. He dis approved an Imperial guarantee of an Indian loan ; he be lieved that the future rule of England over India was more secure than ever, and did not fear for the resources of the latter country. Lord STANLEY—One, and not the least, diffienity ex perienced in addressing the house after a Lecussion such as has now taken place is that the debate has ranged over such a variety of topics that it is next to impossible to enter with any practical advantage into the majority of the subjects that have been discussed. Many suggestions have been thrown 'out for the better government of India—some of them of much value—which will receive, as they deserve consideration. One hon. gentleman has told us that among the principal requirements of Indian administration was the admission of a certain number of' natives into the Legisla tire Council of India. I quite agree that it is very impor tant to obtain as far as possible a genuine expression of native opinion upon matters which are discussed in India; but the objection to the plan of proceeding suggested is this —that you cannot find any one, two, or three natives who could be said in anysenseto represent the native population as a whole. (Hear.) So again, the question of judicial reform has been mooted. That is a question of the deepest interest and the greatest importance. It is one that must and does call for immediate and careful consideration ; and I shall only repeat to-night, what I said on a former occa sion, that I am quite satisfied—the Government here is quite satisfied—that any partial, fragmentary, and incom• plete mode of dealing with this subject would introduce greater complication than it would remove, and that when the queition comes to be dealt with it must be in a compre hensive manner. (Hear, hear.) As to the subject of Enam at Madras, I may remind the house that this question will be reported upon by the new Governor of Madras, and that pending the receipt of his opinion no definite stcp that can commit the Government will be taken. Now, the hon. gentleman opposite, with much of whose speech I agree, said it was a fatal error to sell uncultivated lands in India to private persons; that you would be merely making a present to them of that which was the propertyof tho State, and that a 30 years' lease was sufficient for all practical purpose's. I apprehend that that is not found practically to be the case ; becaaise both in India and the colonies the ono point on which all those agree who apply for lands of this description is that they desire to have them in perpetuity, to pay a sum down and have done with the matter, and then to hold them as lands are held in England. But when I am told that a3O years' lease, or a lease fer a term of years at a fixed rent, subject to be raised at the end of the term, is sufficient for all practical purposes, I answer, there is no analogy between the case put and that of a tennnt who holds lands in this country. With regard to the debt of India, I have to say, in reply to the hon. member for Birmingham, that I never thought of making light of the Indian debt by comparing it with that of England. I never made light of the injury which is inflicted on India by the burden of that debt. I admit that it is a great drawback and a great inconvenience; but my argument was and is this—that as England has enjoyed an immense amount of material prosperity even under en enormous pressure of debt, there is no reason why India should not be equally prosperous under a similar state of things. But the hon. member for Birining•ham answered his own argument when he admitted that he saw no limit to the development of the future resources of India. That is what I fully believe, and believing that the trade of India will increase to an in credible extent, I contend, and that is all I have contended, that the amount of this permanent burden, even taking it at £90,000,000 —looking at what the resources of the coun try will be when properly and fully developed—will not be greater than those resources will bear. (Hear.) Frequent remarks have been made on the deficit in the Indian re venue. It is said there 'has been a continual deficit, and that the debt has constantly increased. It is true the debt has constantly increased, but I have not heard any contra diction of tha statement I made oa• a former occasion— namely, that although there has been a considerable in crease to tile debt absolutely, yet previous to the mutiny there had been no increase in the amount of the debt rela tively, to the amount of the revenue on which it was charged since the beginning of the century. A question largely touched on to-night, and on a former occasion, is that of the salaries of the civil service. I have stated, and I state again, that I do not mean to pledge myself that those sala ries are incapable of considerable reduction. but this I will assert that the whole amount of retrenchment which it would be possible at any future time to make in that • branch of the public expenditure is absolutely insignifi cant when compared with the outlay which takes place in the military department. (Hear, hear.) It is to that enormous excess of military expenditure that the present finoncial embarrassments are owing. 'With respect to the civil service, a comparison had been made between the civil services of Ceylon and Madras. I remember seeing that comparison drawn up in considerable detail in a journal not long ago. It is quite true that in point of climate there is not much difference between the two places, but it is fair to re member that the whole administration of Madras is on a scale incalculably larger than that of Ceylon. Again, we are told that the clerical and military services do not receive the same enormous rate of pay as the civil service. As re gards the clerical service, that was rather an unfortunate assertion, because it Si) happens that the salaries paid to chaplains in India do very greatly exceed the rate of salary given for corresponding duty at home. It is reckoned that, taking the whole of the ecclesiastical appointments in this country, the overage income of each clergyman would not amount to £3OO a-year ; while, in the Indian service the chaplains are paid £6OO a-year, with a prospect of rising to £9OO a-year. Then again, with regard to the military pay and allowances, it is impossible to forget that they are much higher in India than in any other part of the globe. (Hear, hear.) I stated t*.se other night the case of those employed on railways, and the high rate of salary paid to them as a proof that the Gove. - nment did not stand alone in finding it necessary to give a high rate of remuneration for services in India. We are told to-night that it is the anti:mitt - which the Government pays that fixes the rate of remuneration ; but I doubt whether that can be niade out to be the case. When the option is offered to a railway engineer to servo on a lino in India or to be employed in England, he does not consider what is paid to civil or military- servants in India, but he considers whether it would answer his purpose to submit to the various inconveniences of a protracted residence abroad, and whether increased pay would compensate him for other disadvantages. I have fully admitted that in fixing future salaries; it should be borne in mind that the inconvenience attendant on a residence in India resulting from distance is an inconvenience that every hour is tending to diminish — (hear, .hear)—but that inconvenience which arises from climate 'is not so imaginary as some hon. gentlemen are, inclined to suppose,. because it is well known that invalids are sent to England, or if not to England, they are sent to the hills+, With regard to the salaries of the civil service, I have a' report drawn up and printed in India, occupyirg five considerable folio volumes. (Hear, and a laugh.) I do not pretend to have mastered its contents, but the general result is that all increase rather than a diminution of the total expense is,recommended. It is fair, however, to ex plain that that increase is produced by the recommendation that an increased amount of European labour and superin tendence should be had recourse to. There are some pro posals-4yr reductions in existing offices and also for the creation..of new departments or the extension of existing departments. It may be possible to separate one from the other; and to adopt, I hope, some of the proposals for re duction without adopting those for increased expenditure in other respects, (Hear, hear.) The Government will be ready to take this subject into consideration, but I must repeat that if the total amount of retrenchment were larger than I believe it will be, still a very small saving would be available for existing purposes, because you cannot cut down the salaries of the present possessors of office. Therefore it would be only misleading the house if we were to hold out the. prospect of a considerable reduction in this matter. It is 'to the reduction of the military expenditure almost exelusivelythat we inustlook—(hear, hear) —and I agree that when India is restored to its normal state, there will no longer be any need for so large a nativ e army as 1 11 , hitherto been maintained. (Hear, hear.) T he house 1%111 have an opportunity very shortly of seeing a good deal ) i. f evidence taken on this subject here and in India, linlitthuenrte! the report of the urn - mission. to inquire respectin, organisation of the Indian army, and the evidence taken by that,commission were received it would be desirable to t avoid any discussion on this subject. With rep Imperial guarantee, I have been told that a theactsncto the of last year makes no difference in that r es p ect, a d t in the tha Indian a_ estate meat- I fully concur. I fully allow t creditor has no claim whatever except on the Indian re venue—(hear, hear) —nor have I ever held language to a diffdrent effect. What I have stated, and whet Ido not hesitate to state again, is, shat the Indian creditors have the first charge on.the Indian revenue. If that revenue, after paying the interest of the . delb.t,,awd fo l u ti n m d ia n is o, to suffice for carrying on the en tration; then the question would t arise in as to mi 'wliU•would responsible. (Hear, hear.) . lis that way way that the question of responsibility will turn up. With respect to the proposal of the hon. member opposite (Mr. Wilson), I was not aware thatthere was any difference between the act of last year and the present bill. The omission of the word only " is,- I apprehend, not material, but I have no objection to its insertion. :We have been told that the change made in the government of India is one of form, an d h as -producedno practical result to the country. I ven ture to doubt whether that is a correct statement. It is quite true that before the change there was an Indian Minister responsible to Parliament for the conduct of Indian affairs, but the first and most practical difference which I will venture to say' the measure of last year has made is this, that two departments, formerly in perpetual conflict, are now working in harmony. There has been some, not very considerable, saving of expense, and in the transaction of business at home there has been experienced a very consi derable saving of time. In India it is considered that that delay in forwarding answers to questions sent home, which was so much complained of before, is very materially diminished since the Act of last year; and when it is as serted that no alteration has been macle, and float every thing remains as it was, it will be worth while to recollect that different parties, from precisely opposite motives, hold the same language. Those who had maintained that no improvement in the government of India was required are naturally unwilling to admit that a great improvement has taken place ; and those who believed that much more ex tensive reforms were needed, likewise hold the same lazy guage, and deny.that anything has been effected wort mentioning. As to the influence which th e change Ireful!! have on the gove rnment o f Ind ia, I a pp rehend thatviilly is quite possible that expectations may ha ve been th a t point which it was impossible to satisfy. nP.orrainctica the government in India is carried on as it was before. de structions are sent from home, but a large amont of cretion is necessarily vested in those who ad.minis,te.r the d4e_retion inch is affairs of that country on . the spot—a as large as the responsibility devolving upon them Is heavy. 'We hear it said sometimes that the e administ ra tion of Indian affairs is falling into the old routine, and that it is guided by the advice of thoso who - are called " Old Indians." I believe that all persons, whether possessed of Indian experience or not, have been led in many respects greatly to modify their ideas upon Indian affairs by the events. of the last two years. (Hear.) No doubt those who have been connected with the civil or military services in India form peculiar notions, just as members of those ser vices at home look at matters connected with theinselvee in a peculiar and professional light ; but I do not admit that they alone guide us. I believe that in India, as in Eng • land, the best security for a proper Indian administration is a duo admixture of those who bring Indian ideas and ex perience to bear upon Indian subjects and of those who bring. English ideas to bear upon the same subject; (Hear. hear.)• lam far from admitting that it would be well, whe ther in London or Calcutta, to entrust the Indian adminis tration excltisiVely to those who take an'lndian view DPsuch matters, but. neither can. I consent to hold, what. is • now a common doctrine in some quarters, that Indian experience is a disqualification—(hear, hear) —that the best way of administering the complicated affairs of a great empire is to come to their congidcrationwithout any previous knowledge. (Hear, hear.j• • I •have always felt, and I repeat it now, that there have been in our system of Indian administration ninny abuses that required weeding out—that there were many reforms necessary—but I cannot forget that that ad ministration As .a - whole • has • produced some of the 'ablest men and called forth some of the &lest qualitie.s which have been exhibited in our history. I cannot avoid protesting azainst a doctrine that has become somewhat common, that, our administration of Indian affairs has been nothing but a blunder and fault. (Hear, hear.) Sir E. PE URIC .ohserved that all the hest, o t ly)ri t e now agreed that, under present ci rcums t ances an d presen t prospects, the finance's of India presented an alarming as pect. Was India 'able to bear the burdens cast upon her ? If not, and if this country would be ultimately responsible, it would be wiser and more economical to raise the money at once upon the credit of England. Mr. C. BRUCE said, upon the question of the liability of this country for the Indian debt he concurred in the opinion expressed by the late Sir Robert Peel in 1842, that, if the credit of India ecame disordered, that of England must be brought forward to support it. Upon every prin ciple of equity, when the Government of India was assumed directly by the Crown it was taken with all its liabilities, and a possible contingent liability could not be repudiated. The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday. _ SUPPLY. On the order of the day for bringing up the report on supply. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said he should be glad to know whether the 122,000 officers and men voted under the head of land forces included the 12 batteries destined for India. General PEEL said the 12 batteries referred to were at present included id the English establishment. They would he paid up to the time of their embarkation by the British Government, and as soon as they had departed fur India they would be replaced by an equal number. Mr. MONSELL wished to put a question which he had put the other evening, but upon which some misapprehen sion had existed. The question was this—Why were the officers of the artillery now systematically excluded from staff appointments? He also wished to ask a second ques tion. Three generals were appointed inspectors—the one of cavalry, another of infantry, and another of the Guards. Now he wished to know why there was no inspector-general of artillery. Ile also wished to know why no vote was taken for a director-general of artillery. General PEEL said that, in answer to the first question, he must inform the right lion, member that, with the excep tion of three, all the generals of artillery were upwards of 68 years of age. Their ages ranged from 68 to 86. (Laughter.) / Three only were younger than 68, and each of these three held staff appointments. (Hear, hear.) [Mr. MONSELL : But with regard to the colonels?' The colonels stood much in the same position with regard - to age. (Laughter.) As to the second question, that subject was now under the con sideration of the Government. The reason why no vote was taken for a director-general of artillery was this.: A change in the nature of that office was under consideration, it being proposed to bring the artillery under the direction of the Commander-in-Chief. The effect of this would be (i f course he could not go into details) to give the whole of the duties of the office to younger men, to the increased effi ciency of the service. The report was then received. On the motion for :I committee of supply, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY complained that a vote which had been taken ostensibly for the militia was appropriated to the pay and allowances of regiments of the line. Mr. J. WILSON explained that this transfer of the money had originally arisen under the pressure of the Indian mutiny, and at a time when Parliament was not sitting. Now, however, circumstances were different, and a more regular system might be adopted. After a conversation, Mr. WARRE wished to call attention to the case of the gunboats employed in the Chinese war. These vessels had encountered much risk on their voyage out, and it was a question whether it would be expedient to repeat the risk of a voyage home. The second matter to which he wished to draw attention was the training of the coast guard. Lest these men should lose their nautical habits, he would suggest that they should occasionally be sent out to sea for a cruise. The hon. member also complained of the system of naval promotion. Sir J. PARINGTON said that Governmenthad no inten tion of recalling the Chinese gunboats. With respect to the coast guard, his answer was that a considerable number of the men were already employed at sea in the guardships. The difficulties in naval promotion had arisen from the too small number of young men yearly admitted into the navy. Lately, however, an improvement had taken place in this respect, and there was every reason to expect it would re - move ail the inconveniences complained of. After an observation from Sir C. NAPIER, the house went into committee. General PEEL moved that £1,050,000 supplementary vote be agreed to. He explained that it was required in consequence of the sending out of extra regiments during the Indian mutiny, and for certain extraordinary expenses which had been incurred in the course of the Chinese war, both of which would ultimately be defrayed by the India Company. Mr. NEWDEGATE, in reference to a charge for the Enfield Factory, stated that the committee of contracts last year recommended a debtor and creditor account of the cost of that factory, which account was promised. At present, however, it had not been produced. Mr. W. WILLIAMS complained that these estimates were £600,000 more than they need be. The vote was agreed to. Sir J. FAKINGT ON then rose to move the supplemental navy estimates, which, he Taid, consisted of three items— the first of which was £193,383 3s. 9d., for the excess of expenditure arising on the votes for the China war. It would be remembered that £lOO,OOO had been voted last year to cover the excess in both services, of which the navy had absorbed £390,000, which sum he had hoped would have covered the whole naval excess for the year 1857-58 ; but last autumn a further deficiency was found to exist in the amount he had now stated. The second item was £12,000, a charge incurred by the surveyor of the navy, in employing additional shipwrights ; and the third item was £27,000, towards the purchase of some land in Malta. Last year, it would be remembered that £23,000 was put down in the estimates by the right hon. gentleman who at that time was at the head of the Admiralty for this land, and he was quite justified in doing so, the estimates which had been made to him of its probable cost being £20,000. Subsequently, however, a Government valuator went over it, and valued it at £IO,OOO ; and afterwards a person who came to Eng land on the part of the owners claimed £120,000 for it ; while the Colonial Secretary at Malta valued it at £60,000. Ultimately, as it was necessary to have the land, the Go vernment made an offer of £50,000, which was accepted ; and it was to make good the difference between the £23,000 voted last year and the £50,000, the amount of the purchase money, that this vote was required. The three items, as explained by the right hon. gentle man were put as separate votes and agreed to. The following, votes were agreed to : £185,594 to defray the charges of the Secretary of State for War and the General Commanding-in-Chief. £356,040 for manufactory establishments, military, stores, &c. £1,003,604 for provisions, forage, fuel, &c. On the vote of £718,088' for warlike stores for the land and sea service, n cation by Mr. Ma- General PEEL said, in reply f t o h r a A n the factories at Woolwich. 573,500 had wen cartney, that nothing could be more toa si: i tti s taken fa efiY s hortest -possible time. many as possible, and in the Arm strong's gun, and measures had been taken to turn out as G enera l CODRINGTON remark_ ed with gentleman was not respect to Mr. Whitworth's rifle, th a t the object of that v s _ remuner ation, but a desir e to give his time and attention to r earm for the benefit of the country. the improvement of firearms The vote was th en agreed to. On the vote of £ 325,072 for fortifications, Mr. MO NSELL said lie thought it would be inexpedi en t to lay out . anv considerable sum without considering the effect likely to be produced by Armstrong's gun. Sir F. SMITH understood that the works at Plymouth were to be three miles in advance of the . present IVOTICR, but doubted whether the distance was sufficient. As the sums voted were limited, he would suggest the propriety of corn plains; some works instead of carrying on a great variety. . L o rd PALMEPsSTON had no doubt that Arrnstrong'S gull must ,produce a considerable alteration, both in the land and sea service ; but trusted that the Government would not suspend the works which were required for the immediate defence of our dockyards. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. NAPIER wished to know whether any money voted for Dover was to be expended on completing the harbour ? General PEEL observed that experiments were going on with Armstrong's gun, and it was hardly possible at present to tell what effect it would produce on masonry. With re spect to Dover, it was necessary to carry out some addi tional works in consequence of that harbour having been converted into h harbour of refuge. He thought it most desirable that Portsmouth and Plymouth should be at once placed in security. The next vote was £212,507 for civil buildings at home - and abroad. vote included the cost of a building_ at Pimlico, in which t. k The establish- General PEEL, in answer to Mr. Macartney, said the the clothing of the army woul d be p pose—that of a great central depot for arm., ment at Weedon would be maintainecl e for it . s original leo- The vote was then agreed to. home and abroad. expenditure The next vote was £797,122 for barracks at Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the enormous.l t dation, showed that plaint of the want of barrack accommo public ii . mney some for barrack accommodation, coupled with t le grea com there =lst be a misappropriation v o r f a ccommodation being where. He was not opposed to prof that in many General CODRINGTON remarkedhes a prisonsch individual secured, but the money voted ought to be properly •applied. bar racks it had been found that t p 1,000 cubic feet per indi "id was only 300 cubic feet, 1,000 COWAN com plained of the great inconvenience at fo the ru l e was lyere to u tl b :e jected to by th e P . both the troops a t n r d e thecae said dt hs i n 3e, shhtaaebn had d i t r a oe r f i d t bu s iel c o l ed f t itScotlandestimate otland .. s G ener al PEE s London, in '('''s', to lowest possible amount;. but it was absolutely nor • ' . build new barracks in . Glasgow, and in Notting any alteration the remuneration till ho With regard to billeting in Scotland, he did not in tendham. in brought in the Mutiny Bill, and he should then state his intentions respecting it. to make The vote was then agreed to, as well as the next vote, which was £268,531, to defray the cost of the educational and scientific branches. The house then resumed, and the chairman reported progress. The house went into committee pro forma on the High ways Bill, which was ordered.. to be: re-committed on the 18th. The committee on the Superannuation Bill was post poned till Friday. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned at 20 minutes past 12,