The Sun. — London, England, 1807-03-27 00:00:00

Ireland, to, prepare this measure : every step that had been taken in it, and every dispatch ,received respecting it from Ireland, were duly communicated to his Mai. , sty. The..Proposal_ was, to adeipt the Irish Act, and moreover to enable his Majesty to grant anConunissioo, Naval or Military,, with out restriclion ; to Irish Catholics, on condition of their taking the oath of allegiance. On these points eo disapprobation :was expressed by his Majesty. [As the .whole of the ,progress of these transaMions, from the beginning to the end, is detailed in. our. report of Lord Hewick's• Speech, Which in these particulars exactly corresponds with that of Lord Grenville, we forbear to repeat them here again.] The Noble Baron then asked with much Warmth, what more could he have -dime ? Yet, after all that, how hard, bow insulting; how' degrading .was it to be accused of an at tempt .to delude, to betray, to impose upon His . Majesty i He might be 'mistaken in the . - pet - Oil - mance 01 , his - duty ; • but he .:surely,kept clear, of any .thing so base, so mean, so disgraeeful, as an intention to betray any man, much i lessa Sovereign whom he so loved and venerated, And „to,i , iliom he Was bound by so many and such a'Wfal ties. Yet such is the foul accusation preferred against him in the public . Newspapers, whiCh contain the mutilated passages of the Mi . - nutes -of Council .10. which he .had alreacly alluded. Much misrepresentation had aisti gone abroad re speCting the reasons assigned for dropping the Bill . , and - for e - entintiin4 to think it his indispensable duty, whenever the affairs of Ireland recurred, to offer to his Majestytich open and fair OviCe as the nature of the circomtances might call for, and his best judg ment suggest. Had the Bill been dropped, and no thing observed` - in justification of such a step, what would have ben-:the consequence? Would not those by whom he was -now.accused, arraign him of con cealment and of mystery ? • It was thiretWre judged more candid., 'Open, and manly, to declare his real opinion, and confess, that if any new circumstances arose in Ireland to make it expedient to propose such a measure, he should feel an imperieuS and indispens able diity to advise that, whatever it might be,which, in his opinion, would most effeaually meet the exi gency of the moment. This line of condita, he thought, Much more easily defended, than if the Bill had been dropped, , and no reason assigned for a measure so unaccountable. The part Lie aaed in this business was throughout couformable to his oath as a PriVy Councillor. Have the Ministers 4o succeed hilt accepted power on the terms pre sdribed to him ? If they have, where is their respon sibility ? There is no responsibility, when there is 116 freedom of anion. Yet if Ministers be not re sponsible for the measures that are adopted, on whom does the responsibility fall ? Surely not on the Ding.—Were that the case, then the root. and foundation of ,the whole system of the British Go vernment is gone ; for it rests on the old esta blishtxl principle, that the King can do no wrong. Take away that principle, and . you sap the foundation of all Monarchical Government : yin would establish ,the opposite principle, that the King, and not the Ministers, are responsible. Whether he entertained a just view of this.subjea' or not, he would . not hesitate to declare, that -••-mut to administer upon such principles, would not only cc pigory ak.:• in his judgment, be a great crime. The situation in which his Majesty's new Advisers have placed themselves is certainly a most ardtious and critical one. The late Ministers did not receive, neither do they return to, a bed of roses. Still, however, much has been done' both for the finances; the commerce, the defence, and.the security, of the Country. Not -* little also has been done with respea to our relations ind connexions with Foreign Powers. Still, how ever, much continues to be done, and he had only now to wish that neither those who undertook it, or the Country, should have any reason to lament what has happened. Lord SIDMOUTH assured the House that the measure r. (mid not have been proposed at all if it had not had the sanaion of his Majesty, and agreed with his Noble Friend, that the .exposure of any thing that passed in his Majesty's Cabinet, in WhiCh all the Members were sworn to secrecy, could not • be justified but by an over-ruling necessity. That necessity had, in the present instance, occurred, inas much as some persons, acing without the authority of the King, had published to 'the world mutilated and garbled statements of the Minutes of the Pro ceedings of the Cabinet. On this 'ground it was,' that his Noble Friend had 'solicited the permis sion. of his Majesty to. state the truth, and nothipg but the truth, to that Hbuse„ respeaing the trans adion. It was his own wish, as well as that of his Noble Friend, that the whole truth should be fairly submitted to the House on this subjea. He 'was anxious to guard, by . every proper means, that principle of the Constittuton, that the King could do no wrong, and that his Ministers alone were respon sible for the measures of his Government. His'No ble Friend had fully stated, that the difficulties Which had occurred had arisen Item misconception alone, which, from the circumstances that took place, was not extraordinary. It was 'on this ground Mat he was induced to solicit their Lordships' attention for a short time. In this he was justified only by a liberal construBion of the permission of his Majesty to hjs Noble Colleague, to give an explanation on the subject ; a permission which, he acknowledged, had not been given personally to himself. The tnez. sure originated from a dispatch of the 9th or , "10th of February, from the Irish Government, as stated by his Noble Friend. That dispatch con tained.only a proposition to make the Act of the Irish Parliament of 1793 general; and sure he was, that, when the subject had been first discussed, he had stated, that they had no alternative but to repeal the Irish Akt, or to g o the length proposed. If it had been a new question, he should have had a decided ob jection to it ; but as the measure had been adopted in Ireland, and the Ad of Union had been passed, he thought it would be an incongruity not to make 'the provisions of the Ad general, by adopting it.— Another step had been added, and there could not : appear any g ood reason why, if the Irish Catholics were to be admitted into the Army, the British Ca tholics Should not also. He had thus distindly stated thafthe measure had his approbation, because he looked upon it as consequential to the former mea sure, the provisions of which it was to make general. it appeared to him, that it bad been so 'understood at the first Cabinet that discussed it, as well as ata subsequent Cabinet: and also by that Noble Lord, (Lora Huwick) fur whose principles, integrity, and talents, Imahould ever feel the highest respea, well as by Mr. Elliot, who did not feel him Sell au thorised to state,. that the Catholics. were to be a 4: : ;. mitted, into. the Army without limitation, till,-he consulted the English Government. The first dis 7. patclh, too, expressly mentioned Military Conunis , sins only; and as it was aherwards found necessary, in order to make the clauses intended-to be introduced. into the Mutiny Bill, extend, to the restriaed cases, to introduce. the words ," and appointments," he contended that the first intention was only to adopt the ir6h A&. He was satisfied, - however, that no thing but! a misconception could have Jed to a dif, ferent opinion on the part of Lord 'HOwick, who,. after his communication with his Majesty on the 4th, must Certainly have felt that- nothing had occurred , at that interval to. prevent him .from opening the measure as he had done to -the House,. and who, could not have been.sensible of his Majesty's objec tionsto it. As to the communication that, had beep made to his Majesty on the part of some of his Ma jesty's servants, neither he, nor the Noble Lord on the-Woolsack, nor another Noble Lord, bad been present at. the Cabinet when it. was proposed. As to the general poliCy of the question respe&ing the - Catholics, he should Only say, that no man was more ready than himself to carry toleration, to the greatest - length ; but he must make a distihaion between te r leration and power. Toleration was. .the right of every subject--but power was. a delegated trust, and not a right. , In. this view, he had always been of • opinion, that the most minute concession to the Caf tholics would haVe no teiTelency, either to satisfy them, or to promote tranquillity—but to 'subvert the Protestant Church and Establishments. He should'. not look at the question tinder all the circumstances in which it might be viewed—but he should taVe his stand at that point at which the Union had left. us. He abhorred . the idea of raising any outcry in the Country; but.yet he felt what was due to the Esta blisbnient, and would not give power to the Ca., . tholies. Though he, differed in this. fain) many of the ablest and wisest men of these or any times, yet it was his opinion, and no considerations should pre vent : him from declaring it. When he became .a Member of that GoVernment, which now unhap pily, as he thought, for the country, had been dis. solved, he bad not comprised that opinion, nor given any pledge, though he had an expeaation that the question would not have been brought forward. Lard HA IPICESB URY bad never heard the No ble Viscount with more real satisfaOion than during the speech which he bad just finished, because he perceived that his Noble Friend had not abandoned those principles Upon which he had formerly acted. —When this measure had been brought forward, he felt considerable satisfaEtion that his Noble Friend was a Member of Administration, because he was convinced that the country had in him in .the Ca binet a security against the attempt to break down the Church Establishment. He was Pally sensible of the delicacy of the question before the House; he felt the delicacy of a discussion when a question was at issue between a subject and . his Sovereign. It was not for him to decide whether or not this dis cussion could have been avoided. Much bad been said_ by ahe Noble Baron and the Noble Viscount of the Publications that had taken place on this subje&. thPcP hi-, kew nothing, and felt as much regret as any person t hat such staletiaaas their way to the public. But he must observe, that previous to his having any knowledge of the trans aaion, there had been many rumours in circelation, diretily contrary to the fad, and proved to be so by the statement of the Noble Baron himself, which had proceeded, no doubt, from individuals not Con neaed with his Majesty's Government. Under these circumstances, he had thought it his duty to request the permission of his Sovereign, after notice of the Noble Baron's intention had been given, to communicate the whole circumstances of the case to, his friends, in order, that if this discussion Should un fortunately come en, they might be prepared to meet it, and to state, on the part of his Majesty, What were those principles, both with regard to the honour Of the Crown and the . interests of the Empire, that had induced him to adopt the course which he_ had , taken, The Catholic subject was not a new one. It bad often been under consideration, and had, about two years since, after the most ample discus sion, in both Houses of Parliament, been decided up. on by the largest majorities ever known, considering the charaaer and talents of the persons who had brought it forward. The Noble Baron had stated what would be the effect of the measure, both as to its immediate result, and with reference toitsfutute consequences ; but he should beg . leave to state what had been the feeling of that illustrious Person (Mr. Pitt), whose virtues, charatter, and unrivalled abilitieS, were universally admired, beloved, and re vered, but who unfortunately was, then no more, Upon this subjed. When that distinguished Person had come last into office, though he had betbrewit h drawn from his public situation in consequence of this measure, yet knowing the honest, conscientious principles that prevailed against it, principles which ought to be upheld in any quarter, but still more in that exalted quarter in which they existed, he. had, not in consequence of any pledge demanded of him, but voluntarily, engaged not to bring forward the ques tion. He stated this as a fad known to himself, and not as a reproach to , the Noble Baron ; he stated merely what had been the opinion and feeling upon this subject of so high an authority,, for which the Noble Baron must entertain as high a respe& as himself. He had less difficulty in stating this, be cause he had always differed from his late Right Hon. Friend upon this question, which he bad al waysestimated on the merits. He agreed entirely with the Noble Viscount, that if the policy pursued should not be steady on this head, they would be continually fomenting troubles and discontents.— Whilst he was- ready to admit that no ordinary law - , ► should be unchangeable —yet there were fundatnen tal laws which ought not io be altered, except upon the most pressing necess'ty. The Right of Peti tion, the Trial by Jury, and the Independence of the Judges, were fundamental principles of the Constitution ; and a Protestant Government and E-tablishments wereequally so. The same changes that might be wise with respe& to other laws, were not to be applied to the fundamental laws. They might Alta . the constitution 'of the army, the esta blishment of the navy, the regulations- of the re- venue, or, as they were at that time in the course of doing, the administration of justice ; but if any such change were to be carried into effe6l with re sped to the national establishment, it would (tver throw . the const i tut ion. this cioarin -might be terined bigotry ; bur he would prefer to any ness;•,! lights; - the b:2,otry of 7itis3, which had effeaed the Ileveletke T o., and establi'shed the lib vies of this Country on the most solid fotuidatiou. Before he shcinkt comment upon what had been stated by tlitt Neble Baron; he be , lged 'to say 'a few 'Words upon the - subjeli .of the_ partienlar.meastsres _that have le4l . to the present circomstances. He could not conceive any pra&ical goOd that could result from it. He bad differed with , the Noble .Lords opposite on the Catholic claims,-and on that subje& he could un derstand their arguments, but it was otherwiSe with respea to this measure. Had they any reason to think that this measure would have satisfied the Catholics, or, that having obtained this, they Would not equally desire every thing else ? This Measure' was to give them the sword, but to refuse . them every thitig,beside; and yet he had never conversed with,any person , upon the, subjeo, who would ,not rather grant to, the Catholics what his Majesty ' s Ministers by ,this measure refused them, and refuse what they granted. He was adverse to this mea , sure, becanseit would grant what was d an g erous tq give, and was not calculated to give satisfataion or to produce Content., He came next to consider the misunderstanding that had taken place upon the , subject. In observing upon this part of the state'- ments of the Noble B aron, and ,in supplying some , particulars which had been omitted by him, he did not feel any inclination to detract from the credit due to the Noble Baron's statement, or to give a partial colour to the case. If he should be guilty of any inaccuracy, the Noble • Baron would, he trusted, correct him ; and in the obserVations which he proposed, o make, he was actuated by a desire of promoting the honour oithe Crown, the dignity of the King, and, with reference to themselves, of discharging a - most scrupulous duty. The Noble Baron had acetirately stated that the' measure had originated iri the dispatch from 'the Irish Govern ment. This dispatch had been laid before his Ma jesty, and bpon an attentive perusal of the contents of that dispatch, he was, of the opinion of his Noble, Friend, that all that was desired in this dispatch was the ,extension of the previsioes of the Irish Mt generally;. this was the impression, upbn his mind „ on reading the dispatch,•and the same impression seemed, to have been felt by Mr. Elliott,' who, when asked by the Catholic Deputies, whether the mea sure was to remove the limitations of the Irish Ael: declined an explicit answer, till he should refer the qUestion to the British Government. His Majesty had, in the first instance, unequivocally and strong ly declared his disapprobation of the measure.— In, consequence of this disapprobation, a long Ca binet Minute had been laid before his Majesty; de tailing, in ail able manner, the reasons for the adoption of the measure, with a view to induce him to retract . his objection, and to consent to a mea sure of a limited nature. It was impossible, there fore, that ei th er the Noble Viscount; or the Noble and Learned Lord, could have supposed that the measure was to go farther than to make the pro visions of the lrish Mt general. A doubt might indeed have been felt, and he had entertained that feeling, whether the measure was only to inchide Irish Catholics, or the Catholics of the Empire. But upon a more attentive perusal of the Minute, he was convinced that it had been proposed to extend the provisions of the measure to th. Empire. He stated this to prove, .that by every ar eument which had been used to obtain his Majesty's 0 consent to the measure; it was clear that the Bill proposed was only to extend the provisions of the Irish Bill. His Majesty was assured that it was only the same measure to which he had consented in 1793, and that the present Measure was Only iir tended to carry into etre& that MtaCcOrding to the prinCiple upon which it had been enacted. That principle 'had been to give the Catholics the privi- . lege of holding certain Commissions in the Army, at the same time reserving others ; and if the principle of the Aa 011793 were to have been the principle of Cie proposed measure, he contended that the reserva tions formed as much a part of that principle as the adini'ssion,, to certain Commissions. This opinion he felt more strongly, from the manner in which the measure bad been brought forward, so different from that which had been first proposed. It had been at , first intended to carry the principle Into effect, by the introdu&ion of certain clauses for that purpose; but when it was determined on to' carry the mea sure farther than was at first proposed, it was found that a clause in the Mutiny Bill could not Make that' law general, which had been before limited, and, therefore a separate Bill had been thought necessary. The result of all he had stated was, that no proposi tion could be clearer than that the firit obje& ;.vas on ly- to make the Irish Mt of 1793 the general law of the Empire. How the misapprehension upon the sub je& arose it was not for him to decide ; andeurtainly he would be the last man in such a case to assert or sus pe& that the misapprehension was wilful on either side.' He had, however, authority to state, that on the 3d of March a communication had been made to his Ma jesty on the subjed, and on the 4th Lord Howick bad an audience of Majesty at the Queen's Palace. At this interview, his Majesty had stated his objec tions to the measure, hilt he was ready to admit that the Noble Lord 'had felt Convincedin his own mind, that nothing had fallen from the august Personage, during his audience of him, that precluded him from opening the measure as he had done to Parliament. When, however, the mjsapprehension that had ta ken place had been more explicitly stated, the No ble Baron, and the Noble Viscount, and the other Members of the Cabinet, had considered the sub jed in a long consultation, to ascertain whether the Bill could be modified, so, as to answer the pu r p os e for which it had been intended ; the result of which was that they thought it better to drop the Bill alto gether, with some . reservations, of which he pro posed to take some notice before he should sit down. In withdrawing the Bill, it appeared that they' had made two reserves ; first, that they should be at li berty to declare their opinions on the general policy of the measure, as well on the withdrawing the Bill, as on the even} of the Catholic Petition being pre— sented. The second reserve was, that as a Govern ment, they should be at liberty to bring the subject ; front time . to time, under his Majesty's considera tion, by recommending such measures 'as they might. deem proper to be adopted. Where syly individual consents to give up any measure, be bad:no doubt, a right to propose conditions ; but in this case there weer: two parties, itO,l though the Ministers hal a right to propose; conditions,. the situation of his Ma jestY was not "to be forgotten. Ire shOia not say Ciat they bad not conscientiously iropused these reserves; but he asked their Lordships to con'- i sider o what would have been the situation of the King if he had acceded to the propositien ? What . Would have beet' the effed of such an assent, but to divide theunity of the,execotive ? Would it:not be _Jo destroy o t he Constitution, one of the wise maxim s sr;(‘l'lliCh. was, that the King could, do. no i.vreng', .thereby casting a veil over his sacred charaEter ot have the etii:Et of casting the who e - odium on his Majesty of resisting the measure, and of giving the whole popularity to his Ministers ? W,ahis Majesty to wait until the time should Ivo rive; when his Ministers might think it convenient to bring the cpiestiou again forward with mere trio pee.t of etCeet ? He was not aware of other al , lerhative his Maje.s.ty bath, w hen they had relose4 to withdraw their statemeet, or .to make any 01-07 miss respeeling the future, but that Which he had adopted. The Noble Bar.ol's opinion . had certainly been known to his Majesty on this subject, but hii 'Majesty could not .know when he might think tit to bring the matter forward, or whether hi 4 nions .upon it might...not have derived. additiot4 strength from the decision upon the, question by the greatest majorities.. that. had .ever beets known upon any public question. But . when they had given. up their half measure, it was rather ex traordinary that they should reserve the power of bringing forward the whole question. All that he had authority to state on the part of hts Majesty was, that the measure Which had been. brought in was widely different from that which had been san6tioned by his Majesty, as first proposed. 7-: He could distinaly state, with reference to this sub jeCt, that until heliad . been called upon, in con.; funetion with his Nobl e and Learned Friend (Lord Eldon), by his .Majesty, he• was ignorant of this transaction. But having been so called upon by his• Sovereign, he should have shrunk from his duty if lie had 'not yielded . obedienc e to his commaudsO He was fully swag of the weight that was to be derived from the support of all the great interests that' had given their countenance to the lat e , Ad . ministration ; he . was sensible of the spl e ndid talents 'of the Noble . Ba.ron, and of the great ener gies that were necessary for the Government in th e present crisis ; but he should haVe shrunk from his duty if he had not been ready, at ihe call of his Ma jesty, to come forward on a question which he thought necessary for upholding the dignity of the Crown, for maintaining the interests of the Country, and for maintaining the public Establishments, which., he looked upon as intimately .touneeted with the prosperity of the Empire. Earl MOIRA corroborated the statements of his Noble Friend (Lord Greirville). He thought, as garbled statements of the subject had gone terth to the _Public, the whole transaction ought to be. made equally public. The Noble Secretary had not made airy observation upon a .point stated by his Noble Friend, upon 'which the whole conduct of the then. Administration was. at issue, namely, the refusal to give any pledge which would have been. unconstitu tional. Was it possible for a Government to go oro, if the Members of it Were to conceal from his Va jesty the measures that might be necessary to the eircumstances of the day ?• No part of the &noire was so important to be conciliated as -Ireland. The Noble Lord, opposite were aware that they,;beir*houndby their oaths as Privy Counsellors, could not staid the circumstances that /had ctriPelled, then') to make the proposition of this measure to his Majesty. The Noble Viscount had said, that lie woulcl'not go a step further th an th e Irish ilia ; but he would go many steps further. His idea of toleration was, that no individual in a country , who was p:edged to suP-. port and defend it, should be preeluded from the,pos session of any advantage which it rrtiglioattrd. The Noble Secretary had' said,' that they should alter the tundamental law; but for what purpose was Parlia ment assembled every season but to alter the laWr according to the changes oicircumstances ? The re ditndant population •of Ireland could afford one hun dred thousand disposable troops more than they had at present, and why•had they not come forward ? because the Catholic Gentry and the Catholic Pries - te had no interest in calling them forth. As to the Petition of the Catholics, he had only to say, that if it had been presented, he should not have sup ported the Bill. He should himself, perhaps, in jd t se r i : e a,ei a as t i a t ( : b g thi .aoidtifidhes it oo aa loyal,r a r t .n e )y s ea p Nt e ba tt bodlbye d i euooeff Lordtti se s m o Hi n l ao a itu r : ! iei e tty: ,bHs s u o sotu rf sme - -, would take it up, • after- the solemn declaration o f .publie- opinion against ,it two years ,since.-- 1 be Bill might probably have .prevented the bringing forward the Petition, the rejeAtod,of which might have produced much dissatisfaaion. The object of the Bill was in itself of great utility;and it was bee sidesio remedy a great incongruity in the existing law. The dangers were so • p ress i ng upon the Country at present, that it• was necessary to call for, the support of all descriptions of subjeCts, Ira land was, most vulnerable, and the moment of a possible invasion was not the prop&re*t time to call, upon the Catholics. The next accounts mighk pre sent an arteration iii the affairs of Europe, which may make the dangers to this Country not so remote.-e This measure would have, called forth, the greatest mass of the population, and particularly that portion .which might, under other circumstances, be most dangerous. He thought, therefore, that the Mi nisters who had brought the measure forward were entitled to the thanks of the country. The Noble: Earl concluded by declaring his conviaion, that his. Majesty . was aapated by die purest and most con scientious motives, and laying in his claim for him Self and colleagues for having acted upon equally •• - Conscientious grounds. Lord MELILLE, in alluding to the, conduct of Mr. Pitt with respect to the Catholic Question, do.; scribed that than as the polar star, by whose direct tion be would always wish to guide his political 00 1 111010. When that, distinguished man retired frown office in Itoxi, he had an opinion that the passing of the Catholic Question was indispensable ; but on weighing that question more maturely in retirement, and coupling it with the consideration of the ho nourable, unalterable, and • conscientious repor nonce of his Sovereign, he altered that opinion, and determined never, again to press his Sovereign 0 11 a question to which he was so conscientiously aoa, invincibly averse. This dete rm i nat i on w a s f orm o long before Mr. Pitt returned to office, and'was coar mouicated to his Majesty long live that period,