The Sun. — London, England, 1802-05-15 00:00:00

be any great diminution of our wealth ? Under all these circumstances, will any one say our commerce stands on a worse footing than before the War . Wirt , regard to America, it is in no respect} worse, unless the predittion of that extraordinary crusade from Louisiana should aeivally be accomplish ed. With regard to the West India Trade, 'our superiority is so great, ,that there is little room for the smallest apprehension. It may he said, that out trade to the conquered - Islands' will be lost : 'bur our exports-to them, while in our possession, never exceeded Soo,oool. year ; and there is no cer tainty that even this trade will be lost to us, as France is unable to afford them supplies, which must therefore come to them through asome other channel. After firmer Wars, our exportation to restored French islands, from this cause, increas ed ; much more will it do so now, when France is so exhausted. The Noble Lord then adverted: to the state of the French West Indian Islands, which he contended were in no condition to occasion any alarm to ours. St. Domingo, the chief of them, was at present a scene of warfare and confusion.— But even supposing tranquillity to be re-established there, it had lost one half of art cultivators, who could only be feaplaced by an importation of. Ne groes to the value of Eighty Millions sterl , com p euting each man at 601. ahead. At all events, it - se would be long before it regained its state previous to the War. As to the ereftion of an independent • Black Colony in that quarter, he looked upon•it as \ieinitely more dangerous, than if in the possession eliFra e rtee. He always looked to such an event with mattosmay, as a tatack Govermnent must a/tvays en Europeans with an evil eye.-Great Britain ea the most powerful European Nation in that• *laar, would of consequence -be most disliked 'by - f7"-A' and France would not fail, in future Wars; 'tre ,'T up and avail herself of their jealousy.— eJests " said he, " I hare taken .a general view • :;ice i'aCcurity ; and have not been able to trace a aaf t s eetasonable ground of apprehension. Our ell f prosperity are still (yeti to us. We are • eeseiT ; .' l 4 4truggle, - if the state of the world requires a e'eeeaa-ggle ; and if the world 'will allow us, we =condition to enjoy in security the blessings On these grounds, I feel myself obliged of the Peace we have now procured ; Lae efore, give my voice for the Amendment." le a 441 MAITLAND said, he rose merely for aee e 15ose of ranking a few observations on what ye.; s.,h said relative to our Colonies, by thos e w ho -"ed the Address. It was strange, after all been said,' th a t a ny doubt should b e enter . eas , ee siegd oi the , advantages resulting from the new •-•;,- e itadary of P(Cttuguese Guiana. One Hon. Gentle. o • _ t e ee . g o ul•talked of a map, so wonderfully accurate, , ,caf's all the copies were bought . up ; another had eeeder e that - the most distant' idea of any difference , , es-tweed the •oiauroaries should enter any one's : a third had ransacked all the papers, and adoeuineniis innawerable relative to the subjed. For • a his own pm t' he had none but the common assistances, . • , nor did he ;:now any thing of the country but from' a plain map. But there was, one answer for all to these affirmatious. .The difference between the boundaries fixed by -the Treaties of - Madrid and Badajos, was reckoned a matter of the utmost im. portance by France and Portugal ; who surely under . - stood the matter. Both of them looked upon the boun. dare fixed by the Definitive Treaty asofgreat advan tage to Porgy ugal. Much had been said about the cession of Louisiana. But, at a Noble. Lord had last night stated, with great propriety; the advantages of that Colony were rather apparent than- real; and , it had continued for a long suctessionaalyears, firat in the hands oldie French, and theroin those of •the Spaniards, yet still remained unimpeoved, while the other possession's of those Powers in that quarter had attained a state of high cultivation; and yet when in Ake hands Of Spain, it had enjoyed some special immunities. But it was ailedged that it would give influence to France over the States of America. Had not we, and France before us, held the much more powerful country of Canada on that Con. tineot, without acquiring that influence ? If things were to be attempted by force, was it not much move likely, that America would endanger Ca.. nada than Canada America ? Much more might thus be said of Louisiana. If France is to go. vern America by art and not by force, has she not already attempted this by emissaries during the late - War ; and will the possession of Louisiana, which rouses the jealousy of America, forward that 'projed ? Mexico was at a great distance, and not readily to be.annoyed from the quarter of Louisiana. But we'had been told that the aggrandizement of France in that quarter of the woe)d would prove dangerous to our Colonies. Did it not occur to those who stated such alarms, that the fleets and armies which could annoy us must be sent thither from France ; and .that they could not be so with. out first obtaining a pass from the Lords of the Admiralty ? France never. had drawn, never could draw resources from her Colonies in time of War. All her concerns there, she well knew, were at the mercy of our Navy. We had heard how formidable a Military Republic was; but is not a Naval -Republic that binds up her hands on all aides, ne formidable ? Now, with regard to. the Peace, it was plain that our Colonies could not be so much benefited lay War as by Peace; there was always a degree of uncertainty in the fanner that prevented improvement. As to French force at present in the West Indies, it was all necessary, and our se curity depended on its success. " Let us then," said he, " look around the world, or let us turn over the annals of history, where shall we find a Power with possessions so secured as ours are at present ? In the East Indies, nothing possibly can come itecontad with us ; in the West Indies our forces are sufficient to resist all attempts of our enemies.;; and at home we are able to comme e d security" Lord TEMPLE said, he should not now go over the whole of the subjed., as its principal points had seen so thoroughly discussed. The Noble 'Lord (HiawKESBURy) had stated the Peace to be insecure, and therefore he would rote for the Address be cause he wished to make it secure. The Noble Lord (CASTLEREAGH) had observed that this Coun try would not long remain at Peace, if France still pursued that line of conduit which she had adopted between the Prelinainary and the Definitive Treaty.: for this reason he voted for the Address, because V Thrice had constantly shewn the raffle spirit of ag grandizement. He must a little complain of the Noble Lord who had spoken last (Cat . STLi s tEAGH), and the , other Noble Lorat(HAvOitass vital), with respell to the course of argument which they had adOpted.— They had asked, was it i better to renew the War on,. account of the aggrandizement of France, or to make Peace ? but this was not the question. The ques-_ - • tion was, whether, 'with our successes and -our resources, we were not intitled to, more• than His Majesty's Ministers had obtained ? The queltion was, whether we should 'riot - have ob tained a compensation for the advantages which France had in the-mean time obtained ? It had been said, that the Definitive Treaty agreed with the Preliminary Treaty, and therefore they 'Were bound to agree with the Amendment : he could not agree to this proposition, berateao the situation of Europe was not the same at the , period of the DeFniti ye Treaty as it was at the period' of the ?reliminary Treaty. Would the Noble Lord contend; that our si_ Nation was the same after France become posseased of the Italian Republic, or that the basis of the T r e a ty was oor changed? Under such circumstances His Ma jesty's Ministers ought tohave obtained an adquilte compensation from France for the increase of,power to her which had taken place• between the Prelimi nary and Definitive Treaty. What was the situation offrance with relation to the rest of Europe? I t h a d been truly stated to be unsntisfa:qory. With re- - sped to Meita, they had been told that it was placed in the hands of an 'independent Power ; it was necessary, however, beforeathis assertion could be received, to prove that Naples, t.o whose hands it was entrusted, was an independent Power ; it was necessary to prove, that she was able to take care of her own interests, befete chore of others were entrusted to her. The Noble Lord (CAsTL R EACH) had given a statement Of the trade of France, and observed- upon the impossibility of her rivalling us ;' hot the statement of the Noble Lord did not relate to the present time but to the period of the Monarchy : The case, however, was very different now, when France had added to her resources and her means beyond all proportion, and when she possessed an extent of Coast from Venice .to the 'l'exel. It had been stated that'Malta was of no use to us in a time of Peace ; it might he very true, but was it well known that it 'would serve as a depot of provisiens'for'the use of our Troops, and that it would - serve proted froM the. French expeditions, whilst it would also protect our block ade of Toulon- In viewing the merits "of this Treaty he would ask, had we obtaind what had been so triumphantly asserted to be the t4ajed of the War, indemnity for the past, and security for the fu-ure, which were the only grounds . otaaVahich skis Country ought to make Peace ? Had. we' ob tained either of - those objects ? With resped. to in_ demnity, were we to. look for it in the advantages of • Europe, with whom, we had made a common cause? Were we to look for it in the Indemnity giaen to our . good Allies ? Let us look at the King of Sardinia, was he named at all in the Treaty I With respell to the Queen of, Portugal, her integrity had been broken through, and so stibserVient was Portugal to France, that he believed our 'Ambassador there had_ been sent home foi instt'uetions, with respell to an insult which. this Country had received there. Had we left Naples Independent ? The Isle of Elba. virotald. • sufficiently testify to the contrary. Last, though riot lea s t, wao the Prince of Orange e if ever • leas Indemniry . was offered, if ever an insult was offered to an. Ally, it was to then Prince of j Orange a'weeallowed the revival of the old dispute relative to his title, and we bad said he should have Indemnity a bet We had .not said 'when or • how. If any evidence was. wanting against the Treaty,' it, was that of the Noble Lord (HAw It ES- . - BURY) who had declared tlse Peace to bed insecure let them look even at the , Address moved bty the Noble Secretary of State, and, they would fied.,that it recommended the keeping np a War Establishtnent . in tune of Peace : in this point of view the Peace was insecure: As to our Trade, heshould'say very little upon it ; but it . wasof importance to consider the means which France-now possessed of extendiog her trade, and of shutting many of the Ports of Europe against us. With respeCt to the Cape' he should . say nothing, as the SubjeCt had been so ably dis cussed by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. DUNDAS) on a former evening; He could, not help oliserving,. however, that w e - had given up to France every Establishment conneCied , with,, our East India Pos sessions, where they Might, make, undisturbed, whatever arrangements they chose for the purpose of annoying. our trade and attacking our power. It had been said that His Majesty's Ministers had given up none of our Rights, but how would they justify giving up the honour of our Flag, which was the last privilege they ought to have given up. He wished to ask ) who wished for War, His Ma jesty's Minister, who preserved a sullen silence, and refused to explain any Article of the Treaty, or those who wished to settle those points by amicable Negotiation ? The MASTER of the ROLLS said, he did not rise for the purpose of entering into the details of this question, but he should merely confine himself to one or two of the most prominent points. He made this choice, first, because it was not easy to compress the whole into an argument of any reason able length--'-and, in , the next place, because the principal. Articles of the Treaty had been so suffi ciently explained by those who had been concerned in this Negoti.ation, as to render it imposible for him to say any thing new upon the subject. He should confine himself to two points : It had been said, that the Definitive Treaty ought not to have been concluded, 'notwithstanding the Preliminary Treaty, .on. account of the large. accession i n t h e mean time made to t- the power of France, which the Noble Lord asserted hart changed the face of Europe. He should not now enter, into the Peace in detail, because, if the Peace.was unjustifiable in its prin ciple, it must necessarily be. vitiated in detail, nor could any argument be-adduced in favotlr of the de tails until the principle was justified.' A great - deal . of ingenuity had been employed by his Right .Hon. Friend on the preceding evening, about many of whose sentiments perhaps there might be little differ ence of opinion, hut he was „at a loss to diseOver, how the arguments-of his Right Honourable Friend applied in the, present cavp,... It had been clearly shewn that France h a d ma d e many acqu i s i t i ons , and I byt that shellac' materially increased Tier power . ; the Gentleirxen on the other side had not shewn what part of those acquisitiocist#' bowets'luclof that power had been the consent* of Ole Peace. It Was . .to the events of_ the \7_af thit nari c *,: :w as in_ debted for that increase of her power— Did those Gentlenien mean to contend, that •the War ought not to have been undertaken was persuakd e that, bad as was the condition of Europe at the pre r a sent- moment, it would have been touch worse, had. it not been for the War. It might be said, that there was a necessity for making Peace; it would, hoWever, be recolleaed, that •the diaates of pru dence were a ground of necessity to a wise man, and certainly, if there existed no visible means of bettering•tlic condition of a Country in a state of War, everything concurred to induce and to render if a Mattei. of good policy, in that Country, to con - elude Peace. If his Right Honourable Friend could have shewn how a change could have been effeaed - in the Situation of .Europe, , lie would have joined his humble efforts. to rouse the Country to a continuance of the contact. He would-have consented in that case to give-.up all the chances which might have been expeaed from pursuing that line of conduit ; but before they ieduzed him to sup port a continuance of the War, they must point out to him some method of succesSfu,ll)/ effeaing any, good by continuing the War. For irstanee, whilst we had Allies upon the Continent, there was a chance ,tlia t the balance of Europe might be restored ; • such was the period when we: rejeae!itheArst tures. of Bonaparte. : might then rrhapPll4}' obtained inore.by itTreaty of 2titee e tut ve,gait i e np whatever coneeensat ion 'we might have obtained Inc• the chaciee of gaining every thing, A Treaty of Peace 'therefore, such as this,..could not beconsent ed to at that p er i o d, w h en ihere wets the chance of getting more than by any Treaty of Pe - ace. In A li:ice with the - Pos`iers of the Continent, we might attain the objet`: that was sotight . foc, ,but certainly We could not by ourselves. We could with the, greatest certainty ascertain the :utmost liiquits of our enrts, and we could know, that at the .end of three or four years, the e&a of i these efforts would be still t h e same . Wh a i could we have . done to prevent France from gaining the great accession of poWer which she bad .acquired upon the Continent, to have prevented her from ob taining an iliflUence in the Italian Republic, or from obtaining from Spain the cession of Louisiana It might he said, that if we did not persevere in the War for the sake of Belgium and Rolland, it was no reason why we should not renew the War for the purpose of endeavouring to prevent the in fluence .of the First Consul over the Italian Re , public., It Might be said, that we might as well continue the War for one objet}as for anothet e bnt . a country mu s t draw a line for iteell. It was not to he said,' that a country was to continue a War for the purpose of preventing this or .that particular object from being carried into execution, but to preclude a dishonourable Peace. It was not that we: were to fight for one objea or another,, but whether in either case it would have been of use, 'or on the other hand, unavailing to continue the :contest.' The question resolved itself into this; whether the War could have been continued with any prospea of diminishing, the resources or con, :traeting the power of France ? It had been said, that the Treaty onght . not to have been broken off, bur that we should have • insisted upon a - compensation for the increased pow,erof France in, this the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grenville), and. the lsrsble Lord (Temple), had . differed from the .:Right Hon. Gentleman who had opened the discus sion, w!Io conceived _tat the Treaty.ought to have been broken ofiTafcer the concha which France had displayed 'in the Italian Republic. With respea to compensation', was it to be: taken out of the Terri 1. tories in our possessim; ? wished to know whether any Islands. .that we possessed at the conclusion of . the War, . would serve as..a coun terbalance to the power which Fiance had ac quired on the Continent of, Europe ? It was not rhp,:pdwee'attained by:preserving those Islands in our possession, that recjered us capable of .con . tending with France, so far as regarded. her Con_ tipegliii power, because it was not exaftly,of the same sort. France had acquired a .power by which ' other PoWers,'were less safe, bat which she had rendered .safe . .hy Jounding her Territories i but would the ‘piisSe4ion of the West India Islands have the Saline eilea With respea to this Country ? So far froni"increasing the means of this Country, it brought with it rather weakness than strength ;i it divided our means and our resources, and cer tainly the acquisition of those. resources .We' should acquire afforded no new means of defence, nor any means of counterbalancing the- adva4:tages ' acquired by France in ,India. This was felt at '• the Negotiation at Lisle, in which it was fully understood that the West India Islands could be no counterbalance to the power of France If we had possessed, the means of cotrnterbalancing' the power of France by means of our West India Islands, then it must folloW that Ministers were highly'to blame in giving up those means ; but it had not been proved that we possessed them. It .was likely to be recolleaed, that whilst we possessed no means of controlling France upon the Continent, it was only by means of the West India Ishii-ids, to which she would direst her attention, that we had any means of influencing her, through the medium of the trade which she would establish and carry on in those Islands. He had heard no definite proposition made as to the propriety or expediency of continuing the War: it seemed, according to the arguments of Gentlemen on the other side, that we were to carry on the War merely for. the purpose of taking the chance of whatever might occur ; they did not ; state a probability of effeaing a change in the state of Europe, but they were contented with a bare pos sibility: Alccoqng to those arguments, we were to continue theAV4r for the mere purpose of not. be . ing at 'Peace. We s' ere to go to War merely for the possibility ofa change in the affairs of Europe, and if this did not happen soon, we might exhaust our re -sources before it did happen ; and supposing it did not happen in any reasonable time, we should be un der the necessity of making Peace .upon terms much less honourable and advantageous, to this Country. There were Gentlemen on the other side of the House who thought it. was right . to make but contended that the Peace shelved that we had A completely failed in all the objects of the War. failure on our p art t h ere had been none : the °.hl'ett of the War had always been stated to be to Provi u _ e for our. s a f et y : we h a d no t failed ; so far from it Li ) _ we were then i n th a t H ous e, after escaping from Revolutiona r y, f uror to w hich almost every Power which,,had come into contact with it, except our selves, had fallen vi6tim.—Here we were la the midst of our ancient Constitutional Rights! We had b een engaged with Europe, in which we could only assist, but -it was, ,never ima gined that we were to overcome the Enemy by, dint of o u r own strength. They all rememb ered the time when the dread of French principles was so great; that Mr. Burke said it was better yield he conquered by an y ot h er Nation than to to the principles of France, who. had voluntarli torn herself from the civilized. world, from which it was evid e n t t h ey meant to k ee p no terms wi t!e ! society. Surely, then, it was a consolation that France had now shewn a disposition to enter into the p a l e o f soc i ety, i nto w hi c h s h e was proceed ing as fast as circumstances would admit. If . 13 " 3- parte had taken measures to extirpate Jacobinisa l / whatever might be his condua on other occasions, h e had certainly done a real service to mankind. The .condua of Bonaparte in this instance was certain: ly founded on good policy, as, if Jacobinism should ae . tn;tablished in F rance , no ot h er G overn ment o° ld -7.01ey repose. ; and if Jacobinism should be establish. ed any where else, it was clear that no go vern ment could exist in France. If Bonaparte wished . extlreatejacobnism, it was certainly sound Poti c i"' as,. whilst it was suffered to exist, there wa s ri security tor the existen ce o f G overn ment there --e any. where else.. Wi t h resoe et to t h e cession -„f Louisiana to Se pain, the value and the importaen of that cessi on had been only discovered wi rhi " 3 feW nights preceding, and he believed that the qur tion had not be en over -l oo k e d b e f ore , pot only ill them but by their ancesto rs . I t was form er,/ the possession of France, when France sva s 'r effe6' e t e ) r : alive to her o wn i nterest ; b ut ,s h e h a d not u- ", e 5 which it ceaeobfi,eetedtnotdodedrtahmsevinigfrolbytmheiitidleetitirrit,:vsr:edaatfytriovomafntiaitg; j,ouisi and rya s sFpri;teendhad against saidthis Country that ws of - to tlr of Louisiana ; but for this he could see no ,reas° ll ,i t i o t ‘ t v h a e s d tl a ie nz v e o r tu a n r u i t s r l y n ould n ot Per caves that degree of 'injury to this Council With which had been pourtrayed. It was ceded arising B fs.r p ij a ,min i ifat w g,s o rpe u ,,..hic l ie d in7c f ss France at the Peace of r 763, and no danger v`',. 3 , 5 I then apprehended from that c ess i on , eiough the Ministers of that day were .fully competent to dis cover that danger,. if it really existed. The only danger likely to result from it that he could diseo l ver, arose from bringing France in contact the United States of America.. It might happen 1 , 3 c the ccrurse of ages, that some danger might rest" from this connection, but it would not soon, a f n ; doubtedly. He h a d muc h d ou b t w hether te Treaty of Utrecht, alluded to by the Hon. Baro' would have prevented the cession of Loui„j ai ta of f, Spain.. All that Treaty declared was, that 4, 4 1ir should not cede any oilier territories to France; ' 1 , 16 • LOuisiana having been ceded to France b Y. t he , Treaty of 1763, it became a question, w it..th-o'. l s! o r cession of it now • again 'to France was a br eis ':o of 'that Treaty. With respect to the non_reVi‘:•‘ , Treaties, he was of opinion that those Ge nt ` ei t ' his who had brought forward arguments fipio st 0 , - n ect omission in the Definitive Treaty,, bad ° f i r& against themselves. They had brought for''' bo r claims on the part .of France, which „, admitted were utterly 'destitute of foooLla"°:fc They had assumed. an injustice on tl'e • } lis • of France , and proved that former T rel :' r. ought to have been revived by the very 5510 " bs i i ) .• glyntierryn nu ;vcf..uour if 74,rnadneeretdhiossreegla'rr,eleadtiels,realahtie; ,for the purpose of reviving former clairns,wh i° •• ;lieeti , settled by those TreatieS . , then all•Tr e3 " ec ,. ~with her Would" If this waS4he• ell3r o .: ter of the French GoVernmerit we-ought to.b e t he stantly at war - with her, and publicly to st ate , Of reason of it. Confid ence b egot confideuce, ai-oct;sia , we entertained t h ese o pi n i ons o f France, we s h c : be acting in the same manner as •.the French D r is tory, who received every declaratiOn of ours w' n ' cce . declaration on their side that they doubted our since rity. It was certainly not fair to rut int(' th e rriQ .of France claims and pretensions which we l ie gee reprobated and condemned. With respeil to he neral.ground of the 'revival of former Treat-ie." he was not disposed to admit the propriety of its e u beer'. sin posed that some 'motive which he had riot teier able to discover, had induced , the renewal of r °l : o ` cee Treaties in other Negotiations. There ~''ere 5 i f instances at least in wliich e :as in the resent c i ase 'ree former Treaties were reneWed, they would °c ba c!! need without. an objed . to refer to. France ese ,, generally began in former Treaties with th e r 7f o r , al of the Treaty of Westphalia, and proceede" • 0 a tl I - ward from thence. Jr. was asserted that we ° e st d this instance departed from the established 1 ,3 0 t s ot Nations ; but respe6tinee the pratticer it was '-' o arsel v ltad uniforni as it seemed td be supposed. Trgati es rit i o me, been before made with France, in which no m en °£,.., was made of former Treaties : in the Tre au rn i c o . ` Ryswick and Utrecht, f.:r instance, no "' c o d sto ; was made of' fortner Treaties ; yet Europe before. There were several 'Treaties betwee n I 'o l • won - so Country and France, which if now renewed, be . not only have miobjea "to refer to ; la • but wou resep t absOlutely contrary, to their opet'ation, to the l' e , 3 enff.' situation of affairs. In adverting to the renerystoo; former Treaties, it should have been stated f° ,-- 2 , en tle' purpose they ought to he renewed, for unless ` - , fec arl ' men could spew him some benefit to be deriv4t 4 that renewal, he could see no reason for i t. . em. 'onr was stated to b e t h e consequen ce Of this (3111-I fl -61 • which was, that all Treaties, not renewed, ght he i‘ t the ground : the re were some which be thou £0 was of little con sequence w h e ther they fells tirade, • ground or not. F or i nstance , if a cessi‘e n • wa o f ee it. became absolutely part of the dominio e n• lio co no„ Country seltlet,ee t t t i i ia w t h t i h e e h r % e v a a t s y ceded e. it was A the was not renew ed part)" , 5 ,• the - Ad o ritury ceded could not revert back to • event of a War and a subsequent, Peace, • cc( f 1 - 10 111 " t, dig. • Thus, with respea to the Ba y u c too -• • which had been :Alluded to, it was soul •tO •by ful dyn e ; to Lilt Log wood there was 00-