The Sun. — London, England, 1807-02-11 00:00:00

11 IVIUM/1.1 IL WC" •-•.‘"‘-...'.3 63t the Rev. N. Marian, 1.).D. be invited to preach before the House on the 25th inst. the day of Public Vast. The LORD ADVOCATE of hrCQTLAND deterred till Til•sclay his notice of motions forleave to bring in I;;;is relative to the Scotch aer. W On the motion of Mr. Roit•WaS ordered, after sos'i.e observations from Lord TE1448, that there be iald before the House Copies of the Minutes of the T,:priaster-General, and certain explanatory Letters, relative to the Clothing of the Veteran Battalions, :;gad .the Prices thereof, fforn Ist August, 1004, to st January, 1807. • • On the ,Motion of Mr. MEr..4lsit, ,it was ordered, that there be laid before the House several Accounts stating the quantity of-British. Manufaaures import f-:(1 into Ireland, distinguishing England from Scot land, - with the drawbacks and countervailing. Duties thereon, for three years ending 1 st. of .lanuary last also au Account of the Irish Spirits imported into Great Britain in the like period, distinguishing Eng jnd from Scotland. MAIDSTONE ELECTION COMMITTEE. Hon. W. Maule %V. Loftus T. Ewen I. Fuller Hon. F. Robinson Hon. E. R. Stuart Hon. I. Cust 1 T. Godfrey 1. Patterson 1 T. Shelley. 1. Pa l mer I The parties having waived their right of appoint ing Nominees, the Committee retired, according to the Provision of the Aot of Parliament in such case, and themselves chose Sir R. PEELE and the Hon. W, WELLESLEY POLE.--,-The whole were then sworn at the table. ABOLITION OF pLAcEs AND OFFICES, Mr, BIDD ULPH rose to make his Motion re lative to the Abolition of - unnecessary Offices and places. It was of a similar nature with that which he had made in 1797, , and 'supported by thoSe in whose 'principles he concurred , : he was entirely un impassioned now as be was. then, and rested, his Mo tion On its obvious expediency. All theSe who bad looked' into the Reports which 'followed rritist be convinced of the great pradical benefits that bad rel. suited from . them' ; and What he wished . for now was, a Committee to examine into what remained to be done, and consider what new measures 'kid, been rendered necessary by a change of time add circumstances. Much good had been done by the attention which-bad been paid,to the Reports, and many things had been suggested which had not 'been Aaed on. To some - things the inquiries had not been directed, particularly with regard to the Offices in . Scotland: These things rendered the expediency tyf another Committee, 'obvious. One object which was particularly calculated to strike the attention, was the great emolument derived from Ofliees in the Exchequer : he thought much of this was un necessary ; and it would be difficult to make others believe that there was any. necessity for them. The Act of I 782,certainly confirmed_ to two Tellers their encienf and legal 'fees, limiting the two others' . to 40001. a year. He- conceived thaCthese Offices were subject to - regulation.. It; was necessary to in quirewhat had been the.peactice of, the Exchequer: elt was true, that some time -after the 'Revolution their right to the ancient fees had been confirmed by the 4th of William and Mary ; but, in -a mead - cf t:ris sort, usage must be attended to as- well as yaw ; 'and in 17Q2 the practice had been changed, and the fees lessened by agreement, Owing to the increase in the expenditure. In 1744 the fees were lowered one-third, in consideration' of the great in, crease of expenditure for army services. lf -regula tinns were then 'adopted in these Offices, notwith .yeandieg the law, why not fibw, when the eXpen-ili tine was so much greater The.MotioL Thch he Wa's about to make embraced all Pleceseand Of fices.; but he particularly adverted -to the 27th Re port of the Commissioners ,-of Accounts—which stated, that unnecessary Offices, to the amount of 26,0001. existed iv, the Law Courts, which were proper objects of regulation. The CominissiOners quoted with approbatioe the opinion of Lord Hales on the subject of reformation in Offices ; .Which Was, that they should net he abolished at once, but, that the property of individuals should be secured. They farther, stated the necesSity,ef preserving the public faith with respect to those who were then ie possession of these Offices. He did not see that any thing had been dbee in' consequence of this Report. The reasoning of Lord Hales on this point vas certainly just and apposite. If these Offices are not- necessary, why should they, be continued If they are necessary, why should they not be exe euted at the charge which is foundsufficient for the Deputy) Every thing farther is needless., He would not wish to interfere with the emoluments which were necessary for the discharge of the - duties of any necessary Office ; but here was a list 'of of fices:the duties of which were performed by Deputies. in the other Reports there were instances of the same sort. The Committee which he would 'pro pose would therefore embrace every mode of expen diture, and be as comprehensive as.those,of 17.79 and D. .The word "' Pensions" did not occur in his *Motion but he conceived the Committee would -embrace this objel also; and if any thing itnProper should appear in the Pensions, would report accord ingly. He thought it unnecessary to say any thing fate ther, as the propriety and expediency of his Motion must be obvious to concluded by moving, 't‘ That a Committee be appointed to examine what &wings may, be made to thee Public by.the abolition of unnecessary Offices and the regulation of others.;, and to inquire into all the other predicable and pro }per .modes by which 'a sedation might be effealed in the Public Expenditure." Lord FOLKSTONE said, that he had the honour to eceend the Motion. Lord HENRY PETTY rose and' obSen'ecl, that it gave him the highest satisfation, that.. What f:‘,';,:r difference of opinion might exist between himself and the' Honourable Gentleman on some .points, yet between' him and - the Honeurable,Gen 113Mall, and not only that, but between the Honour able Gentleman and all his Mejesty's Ministers, there:, was a perfed coincidence 'of sentiment upon the 9rounds of the present Motion. For if there was nub thing Upon which it might be expected that all should concur, it was this—that the stri&est -eco nomy should be preserved in the management-of the'public money, and that all Places, Offices, and icnsious S hould be reduced to the smallest charge, (Insistent with the proper *administration ,of the ettiirs of the nation, Therefore any measure •which .11ad that . ebjed in view came Tecomineredgd by a his Majesty s Ainwers, a-; well as amongcto,thers. But if he had the satiSflnaion' to concur 'with the Honourable Gentlemanif solar an union of sen titpent' preivailed-4;he hoped pat!there 'wonld also be an union of sentiment ,upon another position, essential to the welfare and stability of Goftrniuent,' which was this, that in every Country there ought to be rewards - for - services ".performed—that it Was not 'fitting that means should be wanting of grant ing adequate remuneration for general, services, and that such rewards ought to form part of the esta blishment of all wellregulatectGtniernments. ; The. only print then to be considered was,: ‘ hotv 'far. these rewards 'existed in the manner they , pught; for though places ought to exist' for the purposes above, mentioned, yet it .was right that they should, be limited, and confine 4 to their proper objea,.and that .they should not be allciwed to run-to excess, either through abuse or neglect. That Such excess did formerly exist, especially with regard to i sinedure placeS, a point to which the Honourable Gentleman had particulaq adverted, he was perfeetly aware.' But he begged leaie to remind the House that dur ing a course of twenty years 'it had been a constant.. Work to reduce and confine such places to their pro per limits. Such was the,object of the Committee of Accounts, established at the close Ofthe.American - War, when there was so great and so just A public clamour on this subject—a Committee which had' in the most able. manner discharged the duties en- . trusted to it. In the Administration which suc ceeded and concluded the peace ofl7B3—an Adini 7 oistration, of which a near arid dear connexion of (his father,. then, Lord Shelbrirne) formed. a part, this object was not lost sight of, and the plan was laid for an inquiry,'which'waS carried biro effect some time after. 'it was not lost - sight of during the admi nistration of Mr.,Pitt,'a Committee having been ap pointecrin 1786, and then another in 170, over' which he (Mr. Abbot, the Speaker) had presided with so much credit to himself, and so much ad valitage.to the countryy. Why,- then, this exhibited an incessant care on the part of the GovernMent to reduce the amount of sine Cure places as far as was compatible with the - other principle that he had mentioned, which was, that there ought to exist certain places of this description, in order to reward real aifd substantial services. He was aware that it might be - said that sitiecure places might be altoge thee destroyed, and that large pensions should be subitituted in their stead. He was rather of Opi nion, that if the whole . fir?aucial system was to commence again, this would be the preferable mode. But when he considered that sinecures were correct ed with the antiquities, . the forms, and the Whole of the financial'system of the country, he thought that' this order Of things . ought not to be el:zinged, but - that altogether it would' be •better to allow such places' still to exist, :as the rewards of services per formed to the, public. He thought that the result of the whole of the Inquiries, of the Reports, and the - observations,• had been to restrain the number of -places, and confine them within the proper limits. The'faa that these places were not always properly Conferred, was not a satiSca6toryground for,abolish ing them entirely. Thotigh every individual, should not approve. of the manner: in , which - they were granted; yet that was not asufficient reason' to prove that they ought not to exist. at . a. ~Though occa sionally a Judge might be appointed; who should in, the opinion -ofScitne persons bean imprOper per son to fill the office assigned him, yet that : .was no reason why. no salaries should be given to' the judges. In the army, WO, tholigh persons should be appoint- . ed to situaiions for which-Some. might think them . unqualifieci, yet this (lid .no,t,prove that IIQ er ll olll-. • meats ought-to be'attached•to these situations. •,In the .degree then in:Which kith- place 4 were necessa ry to rewarcl,pubiie:. services, these places ought to he maintained. Why, then, what had been the result of all the inquiries on-this subjea He might state generally, tir,4, that all sinecure places in the Customs had, been abolished.. Such' also had been the case with regard to the Excise.. With regard to the great offices of,State, souse had been abblished,' such as a certain Chamberlainship in the Exchequer, ail the offices, with the exception of a very few, had been•regulated by commutations -being agreed upon, instead'of fees, which were liable.to a perpe tual increase with . the increase of the public expen diture. The y profits of the Tellers and-Auditors were thus limitted. For the purpose of being perfeelly correct in What' he had stated with regard to the abo lition of sinecure offices in the Customs, he ought to have observed, that one plaee of this nature, that of Collet:tor Outwards, belonging by patent to a certain Noble Duke (Manchester) had been reserv 7 ed. The fa& was then, that sinecure places, to a certain number, were necessary to be retained - in or der to'reWard those whU had given their time, their industry," and their talents to the public service, in offices which did not afibrd an . adequate re:l-where-, tion, and to afford them a proper support, in their retirement. But 'he could not quit this part of the' subje& without alluding to the principles whi6h had been admitted during the progress of Mr. Burke's Bill. The . principles then admitted were,' that those who held offices by grant iiom the Crown had as strong a title to 'them as any prOp"rrefor of land had to his landed-. estate,: and that to destroy the one title would: be as great an iavasirmi , of pro perty as to destroy the - other. But there:was no 'necessity to go a . great way .back. • Reforms had 'heen extended. to the high. offices, except in a few cases where they „were, granted is revthrsionsuch 'as the Office of Register of the.. High 'Court of Ad .Miralty, and that of . clerk .of the 'Parliament,' held 'by a Right - . Hon.. Gentleman ;.(.111r...Rose) over the way, and of which the reversion was in his - But when these reversions'expired, he hoped that measures would be 'taken to regulate - these Offices nlso.—So much with regard to Offices in England, . _ _ . . where a good deal had been done, except in the Law Offices, which fOrmed the subjeCt:of the 27th Re port of the Commissioners of- Accounts. It was true that there were* . a great number of Law Of fices which had\ been, stated . by them to be unne cessary, and • which alight be snbjeet to ameliora tions ; tho Ugh they had stated, at the - same t- . t s tne, that these being perquisites of the great Law tO ficers, the Lord Chancellor and the Lord . -Cliiel Justice, they ought not to be deprived of tile p.,- tronage and the means of providing for their firlii lies.viihich they afforded without a material ,incr, of their salaries. It was true that the salaries of toe Judges had since that time been.augmented ; but•he did not know whether the salaries of the Lord Chan-, as to compensate for a loss of this sort; and it was obvious that the augmentation of their salaries ought to have been particularly attended to, in case of their being deprived of these places and this pa roaage. However this was a case which.lia&:cer vainly been less.attended to than others ; and, there fore with resped to this, the Hon. Gentletnan's.Xlo - came - irecViiimended by all the autheriky that could be derived from this Report. fl: great deal then had been done with resped to England : but as to Ireland, he admitted that much as yet remained to be done... But it would be recolle&ed, that a . Commission bad been appointed three years,ago, on the Motion of the Right Hon.. Gentleman who.then held the Office of Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, the obje& of which waslo - inipirc-iinfuthe mode of colleEting the Revenue M Ireland ; and al though he (Lord H. Petty) was then on the Oppo •sition side of the House, yet he 'took an opportu-, nity of expressing his perfe& appiebatiOri of that measure, and of promising all,the support Which he Could give. That Commission was. now acting at Dublin, and its RepOrts were on the table of the House; and the House must have seen with satis faction that his Right Honourable Friend (Sir John Newport) had broil& in a Bill to abolish no leSs than thirty-eight offices, in pursuance of the sug gestions in these Reports. Whoever knew his Right Honourable..Friend, or the.person at the head of the FiLanee 'of that •Country, or the Noble Duke who was at the head of the Government there; Would . feel satisfied that all useful : suggestions • would 'be taken up by them and immediately acted upon. Why, then, great progress had been made here also. The: only point of difficulty: was the practice of granting officesin reversion, which he 'highly dis approVed of, especially in the cases of Offices where the fees' were liable to increase with the Mere* of expenditure, as this was in some measure entailing abuses. , ,He knew it would be 'said that Mini;;terg were unfriendly to Offices in reversion, and I.7otild iv ish to abolish them because they could not get them for themselves. To those Who were ofthis opinion he would,say, that they thight.diScover a more Vious method by ,which Ministers might. secure such advantages, if they were so disposed, and that was by making other Offices reversionary. But he, had the satisfaction to-state, thatisince the'liresent Min - r3try had come into power no .Offices had been grafted in reversion.. ~They 'had,abstained :from this prae!•ice, having in 'contemplatiOn the means' by which' re forms - might be accomplished here also, and, an end put I to the _imperious effixts that ..resulted from such a mode: of 'proceeding. Things, , then, being in this state, there remained little to be done, except With respect 'to the 'Courts of Law, the Offices of which formed the subject of the 27th .Report. He was not aware. that any sinecure of this description had been created. since that. Report had been made. But that other more loose abuses had not takea place • he'was not prepared to deny, knowing, as he did, the .tendency to abuse which existed where the expenditure was so large as -it was--in this Country. All, therefore, that the Government could da was to use every effort to prevent *he growth of such abuses, and to check them where they existed. It had 'accord ingly given aulnstruction to the Auditors of Accounts to observe such abuses, and 'to report upon them ftoth time to time: to'the Treasury. He would read the words of the warrant in which this instruction was conveyed. [Here he read the-words; which con tained an instruction to the Auditors to attend to and report especially upon all abuses and frauds com mitted at home- or abroad.] This was part cif the :Warrant under which the Auditors acted, and by this means he' hoped that a strong and permanent . check upon abuses would be established. 'Why, then, it appeared that great progresS had been made in destroying Offices, and that there was a- disposi, tion in the Government to prevent the unnecessary renewal of them. But though little retrained to be done, yet he did not contend that that Laic ought to remain undone. He had no objection, therefore, to the appointment of a Committee, which should finish a business in which so great a progress had already been made. He was of opinion then, that with a slight alteration in the words -?he motion de served the assent of the House, and that a Commi, - -, tee should be appointed to inquire into what had been • done, and what remained further to be done towards the accomplishment of this great objea----. Whatever mig - htiae the 'merits of former Commis sioners,. it would be recollected that they werelalli ble, and that in the best institutions there would - be some failure. He expeaed from this examination' that a foundation'would be laid for finally eradicating great abuse's in the management of the public Money, and that the most material benefit would accrue with regard to the system of public economy. Therefore be, not only agreed i n th e pr in c ipl e o f t hi s mot io n , b u t also approved ofthe policy of SppOinting s'UchCOMtnitteeS, at different successive periods, -to examine into. the real state of the Public Expenditure. He trusted that he bad satisfied the House that all.dne atten tion had been,paid to econo»y, and that there. as a disposition in the Government - to promote that portant object; to the utmo.st of, their pdwer:.... He concluded by proposing, the- alteration in the Mo tion-,,;•50 that as amended it was ,in -substance -" That a Committee should be appointed to inquire into the progress that had already been made in the abolishing of Offices, and to examine what could fUrther be done in this way.without detriment to the Public, and to report, with their observations, to the House." Mr. CALCRAFT asked whether this would include an examination into all public offices ? Lord H. PETTY answered in the affirmative.. -Mr. IVILBERFORcE thought the liberality-and candour manifested by his Noble Friend who had justsat down, peculiarly-entitled him to the thanks of, the country. But at the same time he must say, - that. his Noble Friend's:opinion as to the necessity of sub-, stituting-pensions for the established sinecures, struck. hi in with surprise, If the Committee so properly moved: 'for should be appoiftted with the- impression which . such an opinion, from so high an authority was calcu ,lated to produce, he confessed that his good wishes to wards thit appointment would be considerablyabated. No principle would be more injurious in its opera : tiou, according to his judgment, than that--of voting . to ,ach Public Officer a certain remuneration for leis services, instead of leaving those sinecures to be tip, piled to such purposes—tor which alone they could be allowed to exist.—He disapproved of the system of voting pensions, because he very much :feared Otat under thatsystem the ampilia of reward would clamour—or might be too mdch calculated to la: duce the one or irritate the other. He w:shed rath e L that the sinecures might remain to those to d , r pose 'of who were best qualified to appreciate t. ' merits to which they ought to be granted, and th ere l was more likelihood that they would be prOPer, 'granted. That talents devoted to the service of ta . State were by any :means so well rewarded as - t h 7. same talents would be . in any of the liberal profes ; sions, either of the church, medicine, or the bar., was fully prepared to deny. He meant of coot'' , , pecuniary reward ; but that was not the objea a' public men, for their great and generous mind' must look to views of a higher nature, and be aaa.: ated. by motives of a nobler chargter. Indeed, " was fur the Country to mention that there w e many who had given up the most lucrative profes' to follow the course to which these lefty motive Were calculated to lead ; , therefore- such men We ll , entitled.to the liberal consideration of Parliament and the Country when there should be no longer OCCir sion for their services, and when they should-happeri froth their. circumstances, to require such liberalltY' Men who had long occupied, and ably aced in, 01 , 6 , high offices of the State, should not be alloWed to {ai l from the connexions and rank to which they bad been accustomed, in consequence of the illiberality of those Whom they had served. Such . a thing would'be de: grading to the chara&er of t lie Country, and he trusts" it would never be allowed to occur. Of. the principle avowed in his Noble Friend's speech he most sin' cerely. . approved ; he the nxore 'rejoiced to heel the principle stated, .because from the-knowler he had of his Noble Friend's disposition, he was p er' tetiy confident' that it. would. be. afted IMP was upon, "' was fillty persuaded that his Noble Friend was well disposed rigidly to apply the principle of eco" nomy as any Minister could be. At - the sat . ° time 'that he mentioned this, he could no t 001 4 • stating, that which might be unknown, that hi' Noble Friend's predecessor (Mr. Pitt) carried th" principle of econom - y as far as was practicable, never i overlooking any opportunity of retrenchme n t, or °: the abolition of useless places. Indeed, he knew that his late Right Hon. Friend had, without mentioning a word about it in that House, abolished between 3 2 and 40 placel in the CustoMs and Excise, to whic" his Noble Friend had alluded in the course of has speech, although his Right-Hon. Friend was at the time solicited by many of his friends and conneXio° to grant those places to others. But no, his la tt ' Right Hon. Fi - iend preferred the principle of ecoa ° : :.:Tny, hi the gratificati on Of hi s f r i en d s , an d lie id saCr i meritorious things wi t h out h av i ng i t ever k no wntY the would. Litre the .man of Ross,. he " Did good by stealth, and I'lusk'd to find it fame." The Hon. Member conceived that motives aid that before the House should not be at all consider' as ads of opposition to Ministers. From the duct of his Noble - Friend this evening, it was evide i '• that Ministers themselves did not so consider thera; .On the contrary, their candour clearly shelved tt'; alacrity with' which they were . ready to recel o proposition of economy from any quarter of i ti s tl t , House, which must, encourage every man to sUe tq them the means which might serve to catty their acknowledged principle into circa, Wi, t however, this concurrent wish o f a ll, to,purstle e ' / lA nomy with every praCticnl industry, the application of it to the p ur p ose ca t pe9df ing any reduction cf the salaries allowed to our aver; lic Officers, who, so far from being over . paid, w e r a many of them, he was prepared to say with reei to Money, very much under paid. Consideq: their situation, connexions, names,' and talent, t' h e deprecativ remunerationVas., he had almost said; quite too lit; de: . lii rewarding such men; Parliament s hould eve eat, in mind fidelity towards the People, and liberaV t' towards the . Offieers, both which tending to tfi ° same point, must urge them to provide that the CP' rafter_ of the one should not be degraded, by allo o ing the comfort and interest of the other tq be eleaed. Lord H..P.ETTY rose to explain a point °P c° which he had been evidently, without any intentio n misinterpreted by his - Honourable Friend. In 1 ' observations with respeot to tire 'comparative P k r u l t priety of pensions and sinecures, he was in fee v, endeaVouring to answer an argument which ar ‘ peared to him likely to arise in the disc uss i on . P tl 4 be expressed no opinion. His argument' o , a e merely speculative upon the que st i on - -- w h et her, w e were about to constitute a new systero/ would not be better to invest, not that House, his Hon. Friend' seemed to think, but the Co''i t w ith the power of g rant i ng pens i ons as rew a r ds t° meritorious public Officers, than ,to create notilir ° : o ffiCis for the purPoS e o f suc h rewar d s ? B ut thes e offices being already i n ex i stence, ren d ere d t h e o se, different, and th e i r cont i nuance was cenneaed wi th `the honour o f the Crown, and. with -the inter s '' and good faith of tip Country.—lt was, howeV eri ;the duty of that Honie.to take care that such a st" •tern was not carried to any unjustifiable excess, by :The appointment, from time to'time e of such C°,,°, l-- , mittees 'as that whi c h was now move d for.-- - -""i NOble Lord concluded with moving an Amer - sit - Il e° to his motion, that Ireland should be _included l° the Mr 'WILBERFORCE professed his unwillingness td mis=state any sentiment of his Noble Friend's, a° that heWas quite satisfied V his explanation. Mr. FAIVKES said, that he could not feel cot , ' tented in giving a• silent vote upon this occasion, it was one upon - which hiS mind was peculiarly terested; he would therefore take the liberty 0 15 ° 13 ; witting a few 'observations; in which he hoped If . the indulgence of the House. otwithstandiog t N numerous' bnrthens Which Parliament had thou, ° e proper to impose upon the Country, _and the extra' ordinary efforts which bad been already made, to re ; pel the danger that threatened us, and to protein nations around, it still appeared that our r esource: were amply sufficient to provide for the great cont est in which we are engaged, if these resources wer managed with judgment and economy—of conrsef_ every care should betaken to keep those princip l ! in view; hut economy must not b.: merely professe.cle; the principle must' be manifested by action, in or to satisfy the people, who were entitled to that sau' o . 1 "fadion from the manner in which they had so 0° borne their grievous butthens. - When he recollet ,les the spirit with which the people submitted to the °re pression of taxes, he felt that he should not j ustify . t l :f expedatiens which his, Constituents had foratc.°.:o him, ifhe were not forward to second such a Ar°" 4 as tthee{liefote the Howe—if he were not sclico:o