The Sun. — London, England, 1802-04-14 00:00:00

n eeto these two - unto/et:rabic rears of Tgoo and p. 1 8 91, as they did on t h e average of the same time r evious to t 792 ; an d- i t appeared, he said, that ileY'brewed it with less malt considerably. Here T iiti"hemitst be perMitted to say, that'as to this Tailing on the Lower Orders of the Community, ;Td failing it with regret; but he did it because he to do it. And now he would ask the lo ft." Gentlem an who complained of this, because nellad Obliged him t o as k, w h o t h e persons ' were ~,w h o at the present moment made this observation? Iroma sense, and a just sense-which His Majesty's Government entertained of the difficulties which canil f u-pon -th e tra d e of the b rewers, it was proposed !lett ib take .. . the stock in hand, but it was to the 4 , s ts 3 rtishine n t of th e G overnment , an d i t wou ld b e no less to_ the astonishment of the Public, this for ear:lnce did not meet w i t h t h e return w hi c h m i g h t h ave been expeded. The Brewers took it upon '• Illselve s to lav a charge upon the Public as mat_ of fair profit to themselves, and it was a heavy c h a rge, not indeed less so than that which would be Wa w i mPosed in consequence of this Tax. This a topic to - which he adverted with regret, and he "id not lose sight of what was due to the House •to, the Public for •their feelings, as well as to wasi'V" Upon thi s o ccas i on . They all felt alike, he Persuaded, upon this occasion, but they were fivern e d by •the urgency of the occasion. The • to °n ; Gentl em an h a d sa id, t h at i t was i m p ro p e r t h us a s : h elc a a particular description of persons in trade 33 - te — : ° bjeds of taxation. He acknowledged the •sp eftk ' to be a class of persons of great and re- Was ' " le 'trade, and of which the Hon. Gentleman co n ,; ° ,, ne of the most respedable, as well as most l e o„ - :," e rable M e mbers. He had said they were se -110,`,.' as the objeds of invidious taxation. He did e o ,'now that these were the words, but he was 4, l ,7u k ueut this was the . amount of the charge Made to e Hon. Gentleman against him. The answer ta ,.'t was: there was no gound for the impu -1.140n againit him ; none f or suppos i ng t h at the : euse would entertain a measure so unworhily it 'ded ; for if they proceeded on such a 'principle, t rdit would fall; and its power would soon base,.under it w ou ld b e i mposs ib le i t should long continue a'system of such injustice. The Brewers were t)th rn e seleded as objects of taxation than any :te rn e Lb"tly of men : they happened only to be con. li on `l 4 an ar t i c l e w hi c h b e c am e a su bj e & of ta x a - • ' 3 ea• le r ,t was all. The same thing might be ~ a id of .oath4 euerl 'wine, spirits, or any other article that ' 4o a, atany time to be the cbjed of taxa ease There was nothing invidious in the tha t : a nd it was impossible to make way to r „ ee ies of objedion, without striking at the Ott or tf all taxation whatever. So far were l 'lade;,, t) " • }4 ;ps frOm being now for the first tune eid erer f'7• 6ts of taxation, t h at th.cy had been con of e fir fel' that purpose so long ago as the time hcer t li.: and' had at any time since .tim e considered otherwise c they were taxed in the t to o fKing - WritrAoa, of Queen .A.xxe, t ite s' ati r i. ,, bc.• believed, certainly of GEORGE H. Beer o were subjeds of taxation.- 1.4 e fraud S ,411,,t y n i o t himself entitled to contend, that the Tete t ,,• Proposed- to he imposed was moderate, in ,tll f i ,'"ee to the state of -the duty on these articles Ale te -r t i ter times, and the duty on other articles, — t i n e reeitid•the items of the Additional Duty Beer,-and Hops, by which the duty in all .upon the - Beer, to s-s. t td. per barrel ; Iv iitth, e said, it was them for the - House to consider e t h p t."bil tax w ou ld o p erate s everely,. ei th er on uni• l e or Private-Brewery or on-the lower classes L l 4 to e t ,to any. degree that might candidly be ! t the b e grievous. It would be recolleded, that l Opal c `h °rnt neticenent of the year 17 . 99 an addl.. I. eaie„ . r. a tge. or to speak more corrOtly, an in.. .Oliti,t t ''. l) tice, was laid on all Beer,. justifiably, he Theo t , this im p os ed, not bit Govern t, w as .4.1 3§5, t!'e Brewers : it was raised from 3os. fi e tha t .•'e barrel.. dile price . of Malt and Hops , 4 . "Jhe -" e, particularly of Malt, certainly justi. 3 55. to in e, The Beer. .afterwards rose from and f ro 142 's• Per barrel—that was, from .3•1-d. to 4d. tha t a y to 4,-Td. per pot. He did not wish to pi a ' thig''' ough t to be cotn ;tied' was price w hich l i nbe J o case; the circumstances of the t - P -- Al t f ' fled ; was only stating the Pro,,,,e,exPeriehEed last year, through the bounty 416 st - 1 9en ce, abundant harvest--:abundant in tle r "+ the t m . • '4 _Mo re r t c)ouee of the earth, but in no arti lt elliarkably so than Barley. file owned m ind con siderat ion impressed itself upon his Con sortie ..s t d er , time since, and he thought a very !estll t f r _ a ble increase of .Revenue might he made to i s llpo s4ih u , rll this. It was his persuasion it would be • 1 1ei to I ,e for the Brewers to continue the price of e tr 13,i r r e P.ublic after this reducuion in_the price at Y He knew that Beer must soon have dan ced le ast to the last price, front whieft it ad !Ottla it ° r reasons which it was unnecessary he Zin now, and- these had their weight with a k rtn,c i __"' r g up his mind to bring forward the • ,ous e, o ucrore the House ; and he would assure the ..!sgpsidere,!at This P was a Plan which had been well rris tta d , but he forbore stating it till after the s Re cess. So well convinced were the Aht. ,Bre wed t h at itzeir Taraid'ell profit the pr price iogfh Beert be w derived as io row_ t d4ll 11 f o th ey themselves reduced the price of it 'Teti 01.r.CY,,t0 thirtv-five shillings per barrel ; the .th e . whieli* vv . • % R e t a il e r Pric e or as, to enable the to re duce 1 1ty the pot of be.er to 4d. The sum of the allow ed to t h e • I Id. out of which 6d. was to be aft tiai A...prewer for the present year, so that • i; 0 14. h e 60.41 Talc would be only ss, sd. bti I"°t-setheaual hard h_p_i to the Trade, kn ees rl ging this forward , wheri Duty under these eircum he Brewers, by titl*ledged th t their own ads, ac_ wad e),T, 1 6d a living pro fi t - after the price „ti 'ist: have re du r ced;' and this at a time when they ces th 4ri i h t a . ; (l , Malt for which they paid hi,:ber a ds agon took lit•lea9ceth. ain . 0 0 . 0. _,n 1 , been since, or was likely to be of January last, when there_4t 4.t . s in t price of Barley, and it aide • of , a quarter it continued to fallcon- • d n —n. the toth ' of March it was 4.25. t 36 4 8 3 . 365, to t 4.ts. On the -3d •of .April, it sr H e wow ._ .( yesterday the highest price was wuzriettivas would ask them, whether the Tax now . 4 , c , it necessary like] for b..tsp o ressi v e on this Trade ? y to 1, 44 rio }lam to say, that the Duty w 44 5 ) °se(1. uposs Beerof ss. sd. was . _ ! no snore than a counterbalance for the difference in the price of Barley from 475. i id. to 365. ? Most unquestionably the statement of the thing answered all obje6inos upon this head. As fi..r as the London Brewer was concerned, he might rest his case. Many 'Gentlemen, however, thotight that' this Tax on Beer, of which, under the pfeSent circumstances, 'the consequence would be raising it ' to 4.1. d. a pot would not be sufficient for the. Reve ' nue, and that the Brewer ought to be called upon for more, without increasing the price of the article to the consumer : to which he would observe, that under other circumstances, he should think, that more ought to be required of the common Brewer yet considering the difficulty the Brewlei had already, in some instances, experienced, he should not ask for more : but looking, as he did, with a hope to the reduction of the price of Malt, he had no diffi chltY in saying, he expeaed there should hereafter be, either a 'considerable reduction in the price of Beer, or advance in the Duty. But there was 'a person whose interest ought to be consid e red i n th e discussion of this subjeCl, although hitherto he had not been mentioned, and whose representation of the eft - ea of this measure had made a strong impres sion on his mind : whose case was different, on ac count of waste, and for various other reasons, from the Brewers he had hitherto mentioned—he alluded to the public Country Brewer. The Country Brewers had expressed a wish to be put on a foot ing in this case with the Town Brewer ; he had considered that request a great deal ;. the result was, that he had found it inconsistent with the sense which he entertained of his duty, to recommend that to the House in the present state of things.— He did not profess to be very well informed upon this subject, but he would lay before the House, as concisely as,he could,. the substance of what he un derstood upon it, the result of which was, that the Country Brewer had a greater facility of varying the price of his article,than the Town or London Brewer had, He had reason to suppose also, that the laisiness of the Country Brewer, upon an a ver age of the whole trade, had extended full as much as that of the Town Brewer. The Country Brewer's article also found its . way to Lindon, as well as the London Brewer's article...found its way into the Cotoltry. As much Beer, •Stc. was broaght w Loncitm from the Country ; -and' more than was sent from London into the Country ; ,itn,l therefore therewas no pradical inconvenience to the Country Brewer from the Measure now before the House. He was ready to acknowledge that an additional charge would fall on the Country Brewer which would not aff2a the Town Brewers, and it would he for the House consider it ; but looking back as he did to the relations of the Country and the Town Brewer to each other, and as they had stood for many years, he did not see any thio l; that ou g ht to induce the House to make an' alteration in that particular, in the measure now before die House. Any thing which was here imposed on the Country Brewer, hemight, without difficulty, recover of the consumer. lielOoked on, the Trade of BreWerv, both in Town and Country, as very respectable ; it was under the care of worthy and most creditable persons ; he had always looked at it in that light : he lofted also on the Private Brewer with solici tude for his welfare. .He hoped such a person would still be able to brew at, his own dwelling, beer for himself and family. This he hoped would the case of the Country Gentleman, and the man who lived by his labour. He should rejoice if it were possible for him to afford to the person of this last description, such relief as that this duty, should not affe't him at all ; but while he felt this sentiment, and - he certainly did feel it warmly, he must not forget that he was bound to defray the interest of an enormous capital of debt, and which must _in . its very nature bear upon all descriptions of persons.— He hoped the operation of this tax, as he had stated it, would not have the effeCt of making it impossi ble for the working man to brew his own Beer : that it Would make it difficUlt, he woeld admit— that it would create an impossibility, he could not allow. Having considered this matter with a great deal of attention, .and havin g conversed with.tho.: who were best qualified to give him istforniaL. tiow, the result was, that he was convinced no alteration in. the present plan, with a oriew% to• alleviate the pres,ure from the working man, could take effect, Without a fraud upon the Re_ venue, and which would, to a considerable ex tent, defeat the, purpose of the whole measure. He spoke this, not on conj:.aare of his own, but from the information of those who were well qualified to form an opinion upon the subject. None could he more sincere than he was hirnstlfin affording relief to this class of persons ; but in his condua, even to wards that desirable end, he must confine himself to those things which appeared to him to be praCtica ble. He admitted it was desirable that every man might be able to brew at home. He sincerely la mented any part ofthe operation of this Tax, which went to render that difficult; but he must not lose sight of the Capital for which he was bound to pro vide interest ; and in that view of things, a measure which would produce in its consequences some -mat ter for regret, was not on that account alone to be rejected. He had done all in his power to ten. der this measure as- little ..liable as possible to objeCtion ; among other considerations, he had not forgotten that- of • not allowing the Public Brewer an advantage over the Private Brewer. He had endeavoured to keep up the competition, if such it Could be called, between the Public and the Pri. vate Brewer ; and here he' was going to make an observation which he received from others, but on which he admitted he had but little knowledge of his own ; which was, that the Public Town Bscwet,,, had .a considerable advantage over others, Atr i count of -the large luarttities he .brewed at ,a„tgste,i He was given to understand, that Malt and Hops, in point of specific strength, went furthest where; the watt was largest, ;and here also the waste was smallest,,many parts which in small Breweries must be cast away, were brought into the common mass in these large concerns and extensive process.— Here he entered into a calculation of the produce of this Duty, and justifieo his. former statement upon 'that head, in the 'result of which he expressed a hope that the produce would in all .amount 'to .2iloo,00Ol.—!It had been indeed objected to him, -\ that this produced too much ; a charge Which,. un derthelpreseut-condition of things, he did tot con- _ side?' as verY - NplaWridils. the! lidit; Gentleman had Stated that there would in this case be an excess of 800,oiabl beThicritie,Tium Wanted.: a fault, if any, which must, especially at the present time, besetHowett-rosbe—mr - the -right-side but here he Must observe, that since the period, when he made this Estimate, the sum of tbootiobt. came to be de duAletis.-son.a.c.cOutat_ afethe.stuaseatirnated to be pro duced by a duty on those who'livedin the houses of their employers, who did not .4 4o — sifuntler the deho_ mination, although they performed .'some of the of fices of menial servants, That description of per sons were not included . in . the Bill which' was-read a third time on Saturday last. He must, therefore, take out of the account too,oool. part of the pro , duce of 4,,000,0001.—50 that, under the head he had alluded to already, instead of 1,200,0001. he could take credit for only 1,1°0,0001. Nor was this all ; there-were other considerations, of which it would be imprudent in him to lose sight. On general grounds, the Ways anti Means ought always to exceed the Supply. This was.a period in which he himself felt a conviction that, from the general skill and spirit of the People of this Country, there would be no defalcation in the Revenue.: he, speak ing for himself, felt confident on this subjea ; but however well founded that confidence might be,, he could not conceive himself justified in aling con. elusively on that confidence, but, he should prepare against po ss ible di ffi culties, however improbable they might appear to him. On all those points, he had thoughts that were perfectly at ease : bUt there were others who had had very different apprehen sions—who thought that Peace would considerably diminish the sources of our Revenue. This was a point against which it was proper `to provide.— There was another thing to be considered. In the first place, our Es;.ablishment, as had been stated by his Hon. Friend (Mr.YORKE) most ably to-day, was to be a great deal larger than any former Peace Establishment had been in this Country ;—even if it were not, the expellee must be greater, for we could not now support the same Establishment as we did formerly at the same expence ; the prodigious advance in the price of all thearticles of life rendered that impossible. But we were to have a larger Esta blishment than heretofore. 'Jr was important, whatever our Peace' Establishment was to be, that the 'scene should commence with sufficient provision for its maintenance ; that we might hold out our in dependence to all the world, not in the language of, boasting insult, but of simple truth. He would not speak with certainty, because none belonged to the subjea; but he trusted, that in the ensuing year the,Consolidated Fund will be sufficient to sup_ port our Peace Establishment without resorting to additional Taxes ; it was with a view of being placed •in this situation, that he made the Ways and Means so much larger than were judged to be absolutely necessary.. The whole Supplies of the year, however, were not yet before the House. Some allowance Should be made for extraordinary Charges, although he was inclined to think not any would be made. But in this' state of accounts, from the peculiar nature of them, es present uncertain, he had thought proper to aCt with caution. If these Taxes should in. the event be found to be more than was' necessary, he, for one., would im. plore the 'House, not to think of reducing these Taxes, without first considering how the peo. pie might other wise be relieved. He would not, now name . what Taxes they were, but there cer tainly were others, which, when the question was upon the reduaion, would claim a preference to these. Upon the subjea of Table Beer, the lion. Gentleman had observed, that this Duty might materially affect the Beer used in Hospitals, and places appropriated for charitable putposes ; he had only to observe, that they depended for support upon the generosity of those whose kindness was not likely to be diminished' by this small. impost laid on for the support of that State, of which they were such worthy and distinguished members. He dared to say there were parts of the speech of the Hon. Gentleman to which he had not adverted, but he had gone into the subjefl Wi l tit„a triomeness that was extremely inconveniente4oimaelfe and he was not aware of having omitted pnp,4liog material ; if he had, he should be happy, toesupply e it, either before the - Sp E left 'the Chair, or after the Bill went into the Committee, the best stage, in his opinion, for the discussion of many topics which had been already brought forward : but here he could not help in_ dulging a hope that the Hon. Gentleman himself, who spoke last, was now convinced, it never was an intention, on the part of His Majesty's Govern ment, to seleatany body of men as the invidious ob jets of taxation. • One thing more, and he should conclude his observations to the House for the pre. sent. The Hon. Gentleman had spoken in, a man ner which did him honour, on the subjea- of public. . house's being in the hands of Brewers. He knew it was the wish, countenanced by the praftice of that excellent person, :to whom the Hon. Gentleman had alluded with filial afFeCtionft he late Mr. Wit Tr. BREAD), that publicshouses should not be in the hands of Brewers e it was'a ' thing much to be desi red. that no pulic-hause should be in the hands of a Brewer. That excellent person had set an example worthy of imita tion in that particular, but even hiseexample was not sufficient to carry the objea of his' wishes into effea, and it was now a well-known fact, that there was hardly such a house in England, as a considera ble, free, independent Public-house, that was to say, a Public_house where the person keeping it had no dependence whatever on any .Brewer, nor was guided in any way by any such connection. This was an evil, and it were lunch to he wished it had no existence, but it was not an evil which was now to be created by the • prPsent. Bill. He was ,obliged to the House for its l iodulgesacila; ,he had no, filing to add except to egprgraii lifiv readiness to afarplain, in the Comnsi ttee, wittiteVeiriay Hon. ,Mem iber should think required exphitiation. Mr. WHITBREAD rose to explain. He ob. 'served that competition had .lowered the price of beer even before the Brewers were justified by their own interest in doing so, When notice was given of a ruinous duty about to be laid onthe,trade e they - were obliged to raise the price in their own defence. It was their only resource ; for several years they had been losers, and now the opportunity that be- gan to open of indemnifying ttherusel yes was snatched away from them by a severe additional hurthen. It . was a farce CO talk of the low price on a few par- . ticuiaf market day - S. '1 . 116 stock in hand had heed bought in. when the prices were verj , high* Alderman CpMBE made some olp , etvatioriS on the injustice done to the public brewer. Mr. BAKFR wished to have it explained hovi the brewers in the parish of Marybone . were sub.: jeded to the same Tax As country brewers. Mr. VANSI7'T4R7' said, that the distinetiori between the town and country brewers had arisen, partly from ohl usage which could not be traced, and was continued, from no particular inconvenience being experienced from it. The difference of the duty was compensated by the higher price . el:arged by the country brewers ; in some places seven pence or eight pence the pot. As to the Marybone Brewers, they were in the country when the duty was imposed, and it was difficult to fix a new line cf demarcation. Mr. BAKER explained. ill r. WIL PERFORCE said, he was by nt meang satisfied with what had been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHAITcELion. of the Ex ,ex Eoveß) that this distinction between the town and country Brewers was inoffensive and merely speculative. If there was to be a Tax at all, it was fair it should fall equally on /ill those who used the commodity. It was alledged that the country Brewers might reimburse themselves by raising the price ; but we must not forget the interests of the consumers also. In the Cotttry the competi. tion was less numerous, 'and therefore, the oppor tunity greater of increasing the price, in a propor.. tion exceeding the Tax. This, in the end, would have the effea Of driving the people from their usual wholesome beverage, and forcitlig them to have recourse-to the use of Spirit', on the price of which, even the Duty on Malt, did not operate so powerfully. The long existence of the inequality of the Town And Country Brewers, was no argu ment for its continuance ; and he trusted to the candour and wisdom of the Minister, that it would be done away. He did not, however, mean to (p.. 'poie the .Tax 'itself, as he was convinced, burdens were, in the present state of things, necessary. Mr. SHERIDAN said, he thought ttte Tax most unjustifiable, and that it would diminish the con sumption. He thought that those Gentlemen who had stated, as an objection to this duty, that it would be prejudicial particularly to the interests Of the - public brewer, proceeded on false grounds,--- Those who have been in the pradice of brewing for themselves would be the chief sufferers. This class did nor comprehend only the opulent, but the middling, and even the lowest classes of the Com munity. In the counties o f E ng l an d, f or instance the county of Stafford, a. town which he had the honour to represent in Parliament, there 'Were no public brewers at all, and even the poorest of the people brewed their own beer. The present Tax would drive that class from the pr-dice of brewing their own beer. Lord North's Tax had formerly frightened them from the pradice"; they were just returning to it ; a man was again beginning to en.. joy his wholesome beverage, in company with -his - This Tait' would again drive him to the alehouse, where his domestic comforts would. be lost, and his Morals ruined. It would also be.found to prove'highlY detrimental to Agriculture, for the diminished consumption of' Barley would,majee.lesl &ofis be raise -He concluded by approving ; - .14tlea of proportioning the duty, to the price of ,Malt. Mr, PITT said, that to introduce this pro: portion, was a very desirable obj.e.ca ; he thought it every way expedient, but • could not at present give a decided opinion about the possibility Of in. troducing it. ,He observed' thar:it , was not. fair ye estimate the profits or losses of Brewers, by one or two years, but by an aVerage of several. The duty might also be fixed on an average, ,if regnla tables could be kept, and the profits ascertained for a eel-.► taro term, perhaps seven years. This would pre.. vent the continual necessity of raising and lowering the price. ' He thmght it very proptr that this idea of a 'proportionate . Duty should be taken into consideration ; not, hoWever, as "a bye article in a Committee on another question ; it teas of suf.. ficient importance to demand of itself a separate Bill. He considered the idea that it Would be ne cessary to lower the quality, of the liquor, as pro. ceeding upon false estimates of the profits of the Brewers. When they found it consistent with their interests to lower the price of. Beer, when the price of malt was much higher than it is at present, it cannot be inconsistent with their interests to sell their Becr at the former price, when the new duty amounts to much less than the difference between the farmer and present prices•of Malt. They had_ no season able pretext therefore for lowering the quality of the. Beer. His Hon. Friend (the CHANCELLOR Of the. EXCHEQUER) had advanced the most convincing proofs of this. The Brewers were now enabled, by the reduced price of Barley, to pay the Tax, and have over and above, a free profit of two or three shillings on the barrel of Beer. It was reasonable that the Public should, reap a share of the profits to which all. contributed. It was right that the Brewers should have fair and mercantile prufits . ,l but it .was, also fair that the Public should reap a:(1, vantage from ,whatever went beyond this-; the sur. plus i snould rather go into the public treasury . I,hart private pockets. .Upon the supposition that we haye a succession of good seasons, Beer could afford many hundred thousand pounds, nay more than a Million, if the Barley shall com 9 As d iqwas the quarter. No principle ought . to be,p .. 4itted which shoUld deprive the Country of so y - cat . a resource. ONES stated, that he had it from - good authority, tact many people intended to drink pint of beer less every night, on account of the rise produced by the present tax. It was not unlikely that the mechanics of London might form a, Corn. bivation not to drink Porter, and this would effec. wally destroy the intention of. the Tax. He seemed to accu , e the lore CuANc E Lr..o R - of the Ex. EQu ER of suggesting this Tax, and - desiring~,, to lay burthens on the industrious. Mr. PITT in explanation reprobated the i . dea of his wishing to lay burthens on the industri&ii classes. What he had sari was, that if the price of Barley became kiy.vr,'and beer wa'S 'continued at its present price, an increase of du,ty might be laid OR withont raising the price of-Beer to the people. He thought the Honourable Gentleman shoulcktn arstand the sul;j,ft b_-fore he spoke won