The Sun. — London, England, 1807-04-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. -HOUSE OF PEERS, THURSDAY, APRIL: 23. Several Bills were brotght up from the Commons, among which was the Sierra Leone Bill:==• - •Read a first time., ' ' The Innkeepers' Allowance Bill, and the other Bills on the table, wept through the Committee. The Order of the bay was then - moved by Lord EasKINTE, who, pprsuapt to.the notice he had given, rose, and nipi7ed that the.SCOteh Judges i clo now at-. tend the HouSe„ • . The Lcisp , OFTANc-Er,ton. immediately gave-orders for their attendance; and chairs ere placed below the Bar for their-accommodation. , . ‘Thed)eputy.Usher of the Black Rod,soon appear• e 3 at thla great - door, and introclueea'the Lord' Pre- sident, the -Lord Chief Justice Clerk; Lord .Cullen, Lord Nugent, and Lord -lenlee—when they had advanCed to the BaF, - • The Loki" CHANCELLOR • informed them, they had been requircd to .attend,.. in prder, that certain , questions might be put to them fespe&ing the Bill under th6ir Lordships' consideration, and bid them be seated. ' . Lord ERSKINE then rose to state his questions.— Befor&, hoWever, •he proceeded to state them, his Lordship entered into an argumentative analysis of 'Lord Grenville's Bill, and adduced a variety-of proofs ton spew, that in none 'of its provisions it had the leilSitendency to violate, the Articles of Union. He also contended,,'that the Bill did not shake' an atom . , of the Law. of Scotland, and was intended only to modify and correht its forms. By that modification of the forms of administering justice hi that part of the Island, all the ineonveniences.attending the pre mnt mode would be removed, and the most material benefits - would result from the adoption of: the new regulations proposed by his' Noble •Friend (Lord Grenville), whiCh went to, divide the Court of Jus ticiary into three-Courts, to,establish a Court of Be view, and the Trial by Jury in Certain cases. Great ohje6tions had been. started 40 . these , three main' points, and indeed the Amendments that were pro- , posed would -have the effeEt of'cutting down his Friend's.• Bill, and 'taking from it every'ad vantage upon which were:. to depend its beneficial results. The Noble and Learned Lord then pro- C'eeded to propose his quesiions, all of which were Squared upon the Bill before the House, ,and cal ciliated to remove,: by answers given 'to'. them, all tile otijeClions that liadbeen started against them. Tile LORD CHANCELLOR left the Woolsack to pro 7 poSe a slight. Amendment in, the. form of the ques tions; which NiTas „adopted : he 'then entreated the House to. recolleet,,thaJ the presence of. the Learned udges at the Bar was urgently cal Jed for • else where, and hoped the utmost 'progresS would be made in proposing any questions which it might be thought'proper to put to then. His Lordship Jhen called upon the judges . to:Say - lif they were now pre pared to gise their answer to the questions that had Jut been proposed to there ? - . TA& Lord President,l after consulting with his brother Judges, replied, that, for his own prt, he was.pertenly ready to give his answer now to the questi ns, but lei.;-brother . Judges . weredesirOus' to )e ailx,ved . till,4on - day.net to consider of their an . - swer3. - He should at °present wish to be informed in what manner theiransvt:er should be given, whe ther in wnting or viva,vbce. The Lord President was then proceeding to enter upon, sonfObservations on the Bill, when a cry / o'o4lv aroS6I; and the Lord Chancellor in 'formed him that .it was not regular to deviate from the qnestion that had been r ut. - Lard Chief JUstice' Clerk then spoke, and represented to the House the great' inconvenience that must arise to the administration' of justice in. Scotland if. the,hidges were to be detained much . ionger. He himself - ought to be in Glasgow on Monday next, and: anotheroof his brother Judges should bo at Dumfries on the same day." Zile LOUD CI:ANCELLOR informed them, that on Monday;' at three o'clock, the House woUld be ready to receive their answer—and that as to the mode of giving it, their reasoning upon their opi- Mons should be delivered in writing, ,and the result viva voce. His Lurdship then acquainted the Jiidges that they might withdraw, and they withdrew ac .,:ordingly. Bcme conversation afterwards arose respeaing the merits of , the Bill now on the table,_ and of that which was suPposed would succeed, it.—in this con versation the LORD CHANCELLOR, Lord IIEnEsnALE, lord GRENVILLE; and the Duke,of Artaor, took a pan. The Noble Duke, among other things, la mented that te Le4ned judges should have been plat:ed bc.low 'the Bar ; in which feelin& the LORD 'CHAN r.LoR coincided, and said that le was 'sure it was the I . vish - Of every Noble Lord present, that both the Judges of Ireland and of Scotland should be accommodated in a manner more suitable to their 'dignity, and that some measure 'should be imme diately proposed to-that effea. THE LOAN. . Lord HAWKPSBU RY then moved the Order of the Day for the Houst to resolve itself. into a Commit tee U 4 )011, thei Loaninterest Bill, upon which - LORD AUCKLAND rose to animadvert upon the :Iterations that 'were intended - to'be made in' the . system that.. h,ad. been adopted for raising the Sup .. -pi:es. These *alterations seemed to be In a great =inrasvtretilt,. - rsult of.ohjeati'ons Made to theplan, ty.persons who pretended that the. systena.must-in wive their total ruin. He chiefly::adverted to.a,Pe 'tition that 44 TieZn.presentea by:a ,number olper *suns Siyiiitg ,thetp,seiNts.Ship Owners;. showing how deeply the Shipping Interest' , Xvuld Elb!ife6ted- by cortttnuing tne.duties tonnage` .I\?w, : if no bet ter founded ,was urged against the mea sur, of no weightyvhatsoever in' his lie could Confidentry state tdr_t.he Honse, perjod,.eßcept perhaps the year 1782, did t the, de! , .eription alluded to amount. to , ; 7,7, : 1 1 a nnr: - .ber ,713 thv did at. the•preseht Moment. .111C11 d:d 01T.se apprehetOons originate ? As to the of; the•syStem; he v:as.cer-. rain bettr . calauhnel either to .or to:iinpreSs. the Elie iny with a •due icieA otiourittexionstble re,ources: nriII()XMOS rcp'ied, that. the 'al . teration., i')roHsed %.otil‘t have - Ito etft:d weakening tee security o it he tletlitok ; .- That • if, on the =elation of peace, it slabuld be fo,:cid necessary to contirktie„ the duties on tonnage, .B,:e. they might still be continued; but in his opinion less inconvenience Would arise fioni the adoption of some other-peons.' Lord SIDMOUTH went over the greater Ott of his own former financial proje&s. After which he expressed his apprObatibn of the financial system of theiiile - MiniSters ; at the same time- that he ap proved of the measure proposed by the preen. Chan,. cellar of the Exchequer, and therefore should give it his support. Lord KINN.4IRP spoke in general terms in favour \ of the late . Ministry, and es.pressed his entire aPpro ' bation of their system of Finance. Lord MULGRA FE made some pointed observa tions upon the etfeels which would hot fail to have attended the system alluded to by the Noble Lord who spoke last, had it remained as at first 'propoSed in all its parts. 'He adverted to the ruinous system adopted by AL Necker, in France, by which the , Supplies were raised for atime without laying on any fresh burdens, and which led to the dreadful conse quences which'France and Europe bad since so much to deplore. Ile (4d not , make this allusion under any apprehension that the example of Necker could ever be attempted to be followed in this country, bdt for the purpose of keeping the example fresh in the memory of the House. _ _ _ _ _ Lord GRENVILLE, though he did not mean to offer any Amendment which would lead to a dis-' cession of privileges with the other House,. disap proved altogether of the alteration that had been made in the Bill by the present Administration. The tendency of-this alteration was materially to shake the credit of the system, by limiting its duration. fur the present, to one year, with an indire& intimation that it would be suffered to fall entirely to the ground after the expiration of that term. it was, he con tended, a breach of faith towards the Stockholder, to limit his security to what it was reduced to by the alteration in the Bill. The present:Ministers, while in opposition; had represented the Property Tax as the fittest to be continued, at least' to a limited amount, after the Peace, and the Excise War Duties as the mast unfit ; and yet it was those very Excise Duties, which they thought most unfit to be con tinued, and least likely to be, produ&ive, that .they assigned as the sole security for the interest of this loan in the event of Peace. The clamour that had been raised about eventual injury to the shipping in terest, if 'the Bill had remained unaltered; was senseless and .mischievous. It was a -notorious fad . that the shipping interest was in a progressive state of improvement, and that its present prosperity was beyond oily thing ever before witnessed. He believed the alarm of the shipping interest being in danger, was sounded like the other groundless and pet vicious alarm of the church being ,iii danger, which was spread abroad knowing it to be false and groundless, for the purpose of promoting party objects. The Earl of WESTMORLAND (to order) repre iented the introdualion of. the Catholic question ,as irrelevant ;. and considered it as highly improper to impute to his Majesty's Ministers that they had en deavoured to excite alarms, knowing 'Ahem to be false and groundless. Lord GRENVILLE knew too well what his right as a Peer of that House authorised him to do,. to he deterred or put out by the interruption , of the Noble Lord. In a queStion so ioaterially involving every interest of the country, as that of the Supplies of . the year, he was at liberty to touch on every .portant point in the Administration of the Country. As to the Noble Lord's supposition that. he accused his Majesty's present Ministers of spreading an arti ficial' ; alarm of the Church being in danger', a little refle6lion convince the Noble Lord, that in charging that • to have. been done, lie could not pos. sibly have meant to-make, his Majesty's present Mi nisters the objeEts of the accusation. It was inn possible, for instance, 'that such an accusation Could apply to the Noble Lord himself; for he having,. in 1793, recommended from the Throne, as Lord Lieu_ tenant of Ireland, concessions of much larger extent to'the Catholics of Ireland, could not possibly have felt that the Church was in danger now from the few inferior concessions proposed by the late Mini. sters ; it was impossible that such an alarm could . be , felt by the Noble Duke at., the bead of -the present Government, who had pledged himself to the ex tension of the whole of the Irish A6t to this country, ihat AEt grarstingall military appointments but those • of Generals on. the Staff, and every civil office but, 42. It was imp oss ibl e th at : o th ers of the Noble L o rd's Colleagues,• who were equally pledged, could see any ground for the cry that had been raised. But what could be said for the present Chancellor of th e Ex _chequer, of his address to the Eledors of North ampton, and the hand-bills circulated, in his name at that place, the tendency of which was to mite the most groundless alarms,.and to kindle the most mis chievous animosities. He should not press the House further upon the alteration introduced into the Bill now under consideration, as nothing that he could offer7would , induce their Lordships to 'rejed . the alteration. • 'Lord' II2..IRROWBY contended against the prin ciple, that a Chancellor of the Exchequer, in Down ing -street; or at the Treasury Chambers, could make engagements binding on the Public, without any possibility of the interference of the King, the Lords, •or the-Comtnons.• This would be to deliver over the whole •of the finances of the country into the _hands of'a.single individual. He thought it too vast a stride also •to attempt a financial arrangetncnt for twenty years, withbut knowing any of the' events -.which, ,in the course of that period, may render it necessary to - have recourse occasionally to a variety of _other systems. Lord HAtf KESBUR Y defended the alteration in the Bill. The only' wise and moderate course in a pr6ceeding' of such moment to the• finances of the country 'was ,to reserve the'full establishment of the perpetual operation of the plan till it should have received at least one year of consideration and' of The attentin to, the interests of the Ship OWners, whose apprehensions Were sincere, were justified by' the importance of the• Shipping Interest to the Naval power of the country, which was the chief support of its power, its glory, and its safety., Ile did not wonder that the Noble Lord felt a little sore, upon the general feeling manifested throughout die country iii opposition sentiments Qn'anbther measure. That feeling - yvaisincere iii iiifery insfalice: aild no pains w hatstieVet • iad any ope case 'Veen ..• • • taken to excite it. ‘, • ,• Lord LAUEUDALE cited the papers 'circulated at 7,\Lrth3mpton, as proof , that the present-Ministers, or at least some of them, had been active in exciting the alarm of the Church being in danger, an alartn the tendency of which was more mischieoui than , any that had existed since 1780. He contrasted the conduit of the present Ministers with that of the Ministers and other party leaders of that time, every one of whom was ashamed to have any thing to do with the fanatics who then raised the cry of No Po,. pery, He and those with whom he was conneeted had always kept aloof from stimulating the passions of the multitude. He supported the new plan - of finance as fit stood originally. Vie Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE .felt him self called upon to explain the amount of the Irish oncessions of 1793, having been then Secretary to the Irish Government. The Irish Statute would !hew the,amount of the' Concessions then made, 'and when it was proposed to grant any thing beyond that, he hoped Parliament and the People would be al-; ways ready to resist that concession. He 'thought the new Plan of Finance the most beneficial ever adopted ; but he thought it too much to establish it' at once for 20 years to come, fie Wished for trial and deliberation. • Earl SPENCER dwelt at length on the proceed ings at Northampton, which had been the of inflaming the mind's of the inhabitants of that' town,' and, of setting them at variance with each other. One of these hand-bills, circulated on the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; began thus : " Popery or No Popery! that is the question." He was glad to find that there was no man among his Majesty's Ministers in that House dared attempt to defend such a proceeding. He entered at large into the pledges• the present Ministers had:formerly given to the Catholics, and contended that the late Bill was far short of those pledges. Lord BUCKINGANISHIRE explained. Lord ROLLA A'D argued atlength upon the pains taken to excite a cry of " No Popery," and contended that a country like this, pretending to su perior intelligence, would be, and had long been, the ridicule of all the States of Europe, for protraa ing an illiberality which threw into the hands OffO reign Powers the talents of many of the ablest OtT.-; cars, who were the chief support of the military glory of other 'States, ,Protestant as well as catholic. He supported the Plan of Finance as it originally stood. Lord HARROWBY, Lord. SPENCER, and Lord LAU DRRDALE, successively explained. The Bill went through a Committee, the report to be received to-morrow. Adjourned at Twelve o'Clock. ROUSE OF COMMOAT, THURSDAY, APRIL 23. Sir VICARY Gums (the Attorney -General) and the Hon. AUGUSTUS DILLON took the oaths and their seats.. Lot:d POR,CiIESTER moved, that John Colcleugh,' Esq. should be discharged,' 'on account of ill' ealt from further attendance on the Westminster Eiec Lion Committee. This was . accordingly ordered, upon Dr.Willan's declaration that it was necessary for him to go to Bath. A. Debate took place upon the Barnwell Inclosure Bill, -which was resisted by Lords EUSTON -and H, PETTY (Representatives of the University of Cam-, bridge), as interfering with the accommodation of the Students. The House divided, and the num bers were—For the Bill 4 8 —Aga inst it, 31. The MASTER of the ROLLS presented a Petition from the Trustees of the British iVluseutn,„ to enable them to purchase the' Lansdowne Collection of ManuscriptS. The Petition, on .the Moiion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEk, was referred to a S.ated Com mittee. A new writ was ordered for the County of Louth, in the room of the Right Hon. John Foster, who had accepted the office of Chancellor of the Es.che quer for Ireland. Mr. HOBHOUSE reported, from the Committee of Supply. several Resolutions respeaing..the P a y an d Cloathing of the Militia of Great Britain and Ire land ; which were agreed to by the House, and a Bill was ordered pursuant thereto. Mr. BANKES, after stating the advantages 'Which the Public had a right to expect from the British Museum, moved for a Copy of the Regulations which had been made for the better preservation and arrangement of their Collection ; as also for the mOre ready access of Strangers' and Artists to - the said Museum, and of the numbers who had obtained admission from the gth of February, 1805 (when the last Return was made), to the latest time that the Account could be made up.—Ordered. Gen. FITZPATRICK brought in a Bill for the more ready Payment of Half-pay and other Allowances to Officers, the Widows of Officers, and Persons on the Compassionate List. The SECRETA RY a t W AR (Si r J, Puiteney) warmly approved of and supported the Bill ; which was read a first time, and ordered to be printed. DISTURBANCES AT MADRAS. Mr. LusnlNG-rOrr thought .it necessary that the ..1714115e should be informed,.bifore the Session. wa s closed, what truth there was in the general report of most serious and alarming disturbances in the •neighbourhood of Madras. He should therefore .be glad that the Right Hon. and Learned Gentle man- (Mr. Perceval), or any otter of his Majesty's Minister's, would satisfy him on that point. Lard CASTLEREAGH admitted, that there had been some disturbances in the Southern part of the Peninsula, but he had heard of none in the neigh bourhood of the seat of Government. The disturb ances, however, which had taken place, were not of a nature so serious or alarming as the Hon. Gentle man seemed to apprehend. CALICO PRINTERS' BILL. Mr. SHERIDAN moved the second reading of the Journeymen Calico-Printers' Bill. Sir ROBERT PEELS said, that although, on account of his,ill-health, he had been given leave to absent himself • from his duty in Parliament, yet he should feel great self-reproach if he should allow a "' Bill so misehievous, as he conceived tlAis to be, to pass without giving it his decided opposition. He was hims'elf a friend to the Journeymen Calico- Printers,' - and he conceived that he and the other Master-Printers' had done thm more service than they would • ever receive 'from the speeches of the Right HOn. Gentleman . , (Mr. Sheridan). • TheJodr;• neynten; iu their test demand of limiting the 111.1111•.' :„ her of apprentices, seemed toad upon the principle, that they were able by combination to give the law to the Masters. This scheme, however, failed, and only occasioned the Masters to bring many new hands into the trade. There were many Master 3 who seriously thpught of removing themselves and' their capitals to some other country, where their properties would be better protoSted, and their trade be more free from restri&ion; for a.lnan. of property could never bear the idea of receiving the law, in every instance, from his journeymen. If it could be - proved - that this Bill would be for the. advantage of the Journeymen, he should not oppose it, as he con , sidered that the interests, of the greater number should be attended to in preference to the intere s t; of the few ; hut he was convinced that a Bill like the present tveuld be injurious to the whole trade, and consequently to the Journeymen. He con cluded by moving, that this Bill be read a second ' time on this day three months. Mr. D. G MDR; supported this Motion, He considered that, in the present state of society, it was not so much the tyranny of Icings and great met; that was to be apprehended, as the tyranny, of the niany.prer the few. He considered that nothipg was more dangerous than • combinalions among Journeymen. If the agricultural latfourers were to combine in, a similar manner, and demand for their labour more than a fair proportion of the land, the Country must rapidly fall to ruin. Mr. JACOB began by observing, that, in 1791, this country only exported to the value of one mil lion annually in cotton goods; but now, in sixteen years afiqr that period,. the quantity . exported amounts to 9,750,0001. being more than one , thirti. of the whole 'amount of our exports. This great increase was owing to thp skill and talents of palica Printers. In the infancy of this trade, some degree of philosophy was necessary, and a censiderable knowledge of chemistry ; but now; by the division of labour, the busines of a Calk.° Printer - drd - fier require more skill than any other handicraft trade,,, and therefbre • the present, race of 'Calico' "Printers were not entitled to better wages than most 'other mechanics. It was allql.ved, that a boy of fonrteen - coUld, in a few months, learn the wh o l e b us i ness, and yet:the average WageS were twenty-fii.e shillings a-week, although the workmen lived for the most part in the Northern counties, where those wag 9 4. 'would go much farther than they woukri n a Southern county. He did pot see that the Soureey .men Calico Printers had any serious subject of com plaint, and therefore he should oppose the present Mr. R. 11100R.E declared, that the anxious wish' of the Committee was, that the Masters and Jour ff neymen should. regulate the matter among them, ff selves, without bringing, it before 'ParliaMent. The &alplaintof the Journeymen: was this ; that 'a largo number of loyal, dutiful, and faithful subjects 1;t:113, DOW without employment and without bread,' in consequence of the grievances of which they corn ? plained. He conceived it the first duty of Govern ment to see that the subjeas of the fealin had, bread. He felt.a good deal for the rights, ofJourney men i his Constituents were either Journeymen, or had been Journey den, and he had, therefore, con sidered that kind of right WhiCh is derivc.'d front having served an apprenticeship. 'He conSidered that from the system of apprenticeship was 'de rived, not only the superior skill of our, worirn w ee, in every department, but a great part of the'priteicat. morality,of the British Nation. 'ffe admitted, that on account of the division of laborer, a 'boy could ha taught to do the business in a very short time as well, as a Journeyman, The 'consequence was, that as soon as the boy vitlS out of his apprenticeship, also found himself out of bread. It was, the'reforq j in this branch of trade, more,th a n i n an y o th er , t h a t setae regulations were wanting to insure a sub4is... tence to the Journeymen. 'Ur. H. "ERSKINE. considered, that.. whatever might be the grievances of thejourneymen, -the pre sent .Bill would not afford the remedy. It way against the first principles of civil liberty, a‘ well aq against all the commercial maxims which had hither to been received. The first clause of it was to pre vent Masters from taking more than a certain ber of .apprentices. This was a regulation which had never before been demanded from Parliament: Every man had an undoubted right to teach his trade to a against th an e atny p he numberseople as h coming chos e.rnin ginto lie the trade t v. l a e s cr !S. ridiculous as if he or others, old Journeymen in the profession of the law (a laugh), should# come to Par liament, to complain of the number of young men of talents that were educating for that profession, and beg that the House would shut the door against 'them, for fear they would interfere with the old . practitioners. A s to the wages given, he thought that that, as well as the price of the article, .would of themselves find their level. He, therefore, was de cidedly in opposition to the Bill, and should suite for the Motion of the Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peele), Mr. SHERIDAN defended the Bill. He said it would have been well if his Right Hon, and Learned Friend_ (Mr. Erskine), had condescended to read the Report of the Committee upon which this Bill was founded, before he exercised so much of his ingenuity in condemning it. If he had read that Report, he would have found that, so far from be ing a measure for the encouragement of coMbinv tions amongst the Journeymen Calico-printers, it . was one for the relief and proteaion of the induS , trious and oppressed. His Right Honourable and Learned Friend had declared, that, whatever was the nature of the disorder complained of, he would not give this Bill 'as a cure, because be considered it absolute poison. But he (Mr. Sheridan) believed it was the pratice of all rea ° ular-bred physicians to consult a little the nature of the disorder complained of, before they rejeaed one remedy to prescribe another; and, in this case, he certainly felt that he had the advantage of his Right Honourable and Learned Friend. He intfeated, however, that the House, before it should reiea the present NIL would first condescend to read the Report of its Committee, which.it was always customary for the House to respect, and not to libel and stultify that 'Report without ever once reading or considering the evidence upon which it was foUnded. Before the House consented tä reject this Bill; he begged they would consider, that the necess ary consequence must be inconsistency with their own Justice, to repeal th e Act of the .sth of Elizabeth, by which every other . trade in t 7 he kingdon?, except that, of the Calico' printers, was regulated and protected. But before _ tliat House would agree to such a repeal, he S