The Sun. — London, England, 1802-03-06 00:00:00

V ~; a ti ..- - • ed States of America thought fit to impose a dtnY upon the tonnage. of British Ships, and upon the cargoes of all Vessels coming into their Ports, ivhichwerenot American, for the purpose of bene fiting their own Navigation.. When the Conamercial Treaty was negotiated between the .two Countries, It was expressly stipulated that no fresh duties should be imposed ; but as the United States refused to give up the old dutieS,ethis Country could not softer those duties to remain without imposing Coun tervailing Duties, and this was their origin. He should have thought it a matter of course, without Unitedt between the two Countries, that if the ' States withdrew their duties, we should also' discontinue ours. He was sure such condua would be perfealy consistent also with the spirit of the Treaty, if it did not striftly come within the let_ ter :. if the American duties were taken off, the duties imposed.bY this• Country must then cease to ue_cOunte-rvailing; and if they were not' Counter- I?ailing Duties, they must be new duties, and there_ rare contrary to the stipulations of the Treaty. He could not say that the American duties had a&ually ceased, but the UnitedSiates had done all that they couldthe Secretary of State i , as.they hachnotifi.dto T,'lere, their intention ot taking off those duties.-_Lle submitted, therefore, to the House, whether it was not jost and expedient to pass an A6f, the ob_ Jeff of which was merely to give His Majesty Power, under certain. circumstances, to suspend the Countervailing b Y good faith, as the communication of the Ame_ • ?lean duties being taken off might arrive when Par_ lament was not sitting, whilst at the same time the continuance of the Countervailing Duties, after such a cottununication, would be a breach of the Treaty. Independent of -this, however, raking it upon the ground of expediency alone, was it not equally Advantageous to America and Great Britain, that the 'duties on both sides should cease ? At any ' l'"te, if it could not be clearly proved that an ad-' lantage would result from continuing those duties, tin was fair to presume, without arguing the ques_4,3n anY, further, that an advantage would .result Lett`n (isentinuing those duties. It ,was always ofcr that two Countries should be in a .i.inple state :rf, "munkation with each other, than under the was of a complicated system of Duties. There ,a also another consideration of policy : great fart of the produce of America was- deposited in llsCouptry, the world ; frmn whence it was exported to other parts ft' r ofeif Countervailing Duties were oastoe I)ere, we gave an' advantage to lit.eosllancd andt tithe? Countries where no suds du i existed and we ' ' produce of A!fletiCat'te3 consequently, much of the ference to this C Would be deposited, in pre_ ountry. Upon all the grounds, ;therefore, of ex t; Bill presented e-r"encY and policy, the present them itself to the House, and called upon woi 'for their consent and approbation. 'He titt now say a few words with respea to the otherale anent} °°servations of the Hon: and Learned Gen jnan* *The Fitin and. Le trued Gentleman had said, 4 ' effect was the policy of France to destroy the of our Navigation ACS. This might be very true „e.„ h•4l, duo there was no man who thought more f 11,6111 Y than him.eli .of that AC, which was the (Ln"'ltiOn of our commerce, our prosperity, and ,°l'r wealth. There was no man 'more ready than iniesele .h;c to applaud the brave and skilful exertions w,,,-.4:" bad been made to support that:Ad. It was tenlewhat singular, however, that the Hon. and such ed Gentleman should now so‘freelyereeotumerid. that bold and determined measures in support of leA 46t, who had not loft since endeavoured to' cii,luence the House to desert and abandon the prin ardes of that very NavigAtion Ad. The Hon. lio Learned Gentleman had trade some quotations as tjll a book which had been published sly long ago ev.: 11,"arY IBot, which he had kept in his,pocket related`- n, and now,' when the question to which it trot'cv ee as decided, he' brought it forward to the pro,: ~(,)f. the House.. It was now produced, to til c teat there was to be a continued War against Qnicoerce of this Country ; at one time we W,le 1, ~)(1 ,:uut, that War was. ruin to our Commerce, he vll'w our Commerce was to be ruined by Peace : Illen'as as little inclined to believe the latter state ,,eo± as. the former, which had proved to be erro p,__U_Se, It if -: there was a War against our Com i'ecificfounu,. was no reason why we should not pass a or why we skean ilipon 0 principle of liberal conciliation, State 0 _ boonciliate ()pen manner 'l° icl "°t3 to a liberal,' a fair, and mended t- r the enefit of any great and powerful. conciliation was i our Commerce, where that part. , railiation on our other States It ty no degradation or hue to destroy the Commerce of Great Bri. might be the olicy of tures,,dorin were they t,ain, but how to do it ? Our manufac the g the late \Vat, found their way into all ports of Earo e ' • and .1-- Exports of e' In spite of every prohibition ; j.,_ !ltel ofßritish Manufatiures were, dur... • and ttat period nearly doubled. America, after pthreoh\i":`7 between her and this Country, •imposed man:fa' ory duties' on British goods ; but British itires were exported thither in a greater pro) lortio 11n than before the War, in spite of every 111.:cl'i btion. When a Commercial the i e between Armed France .and Russia Treaty took , at the eriod of in the e,rn. ea Neutrality, impediments were tltrrovn of the Commerce of this Country in suite Oil:these, France was compelled to purchase ee in the markets of this Country.-- `-'hitions upon our Commerce -""Commerce must "f vrohi_ he be,._ in that respe...., ' Friend seemed to style resources' with those we hat . The CHANCELLOR of theEXt, he was sure the House would attest , the see_ which was due to the Noble Lord who had just sat down, and join in the declaration which he was. e. about to make, as the result of ,a convielion in his sseirsisible eve,. exerted to excie_ mind that his Noble Friend' had no intention, iri beCommerce in every part u.. the sentiment he expressed, to recommend any excluded, if' possible,_ abatement of the high spirit of this Country, and prgiicable : that the, COmmerce from h._ reposing upon our wealth independent' of our courage. would be _ Such a sentiment had never been uttered, and he part of Europe. Thar such,. indeed, might be L. was confident had never been harboured. by his disposition,, Noble Friend. The whole of his public life of Peace; every exertion had been made to give , night, cut 01. .- , a continued series of proofs to. the contrary : every . ~ , all ,during t which was peculiar to a state I-1e had s.. . a tx, 4 sentiment that had ever been uttered by him in that it, effecl, over Europe, •.• • ~ . , the Whole War. the occasion, When the ~..., , • • . ~, 2 • • . ... -f - , . . -L:2-2-' .--.- - mu& relative to the ollse'rvations that had been made, though they were not - stridly 'to the ques:. tion ; and when he contemplated the spirit ) the energy,. and the firmness displayed on every occa- • sion by the Cotintry, he could . not 'for a moment conceive that there was the least cause for alarm.— Let Britons trust to themselves and they had nothing to fear. Mr. WINDHAM . said, the subjed before the House had not appeared to him to be of, any great importance, although it had been argued at greAt length by his Hon. and Learned Friend. The NO. hie Lord had urged a very brilliant statement of the prosperity of the Commerce of this Country, but he was afraid that such a statement would create too great a confidence in the People, and prevent them from guarding, against those dangers by which they were surrounded. The Noble Lord, however, had left the question where- he (blind it, not, having . touched upon those points of objection which had been urged by his Hon. and Learned Friend. He had no doubt that they ought to take oft these Countervailing buties; the only question was as to the time, and whether it. was proper to pass an Ad to take off the Countervailing Duties, before it was _known that the duties in America had been abo- , lished. The Consideration of this question led him,' as it had led the Noble Lord, to other topics. His Hon. and Learned Friend had mentioned a design on the,part of France, to destroy our Commerce during a period of Peace : the Noble Lord refused to give any credit to a prOphecy of thy` destruction of our . Commerce during Peace, because it had been prophe sied that War would destroy our. Commerce, and that , prophecy had proved erroneous. That might be an argument against believing any prophecy, or it might •be urged against giving credit to the same , set of men, who, upon the same principle, prophe sied the destruction of our. Commerce equally by, War and by Peace ; but sureiy to contend that, be. cause one set of .men prophesied the destrudion of one Commerce by War, ana were mistaken, that therefore another set of mer, who, upon a different principle, prophesied the destrudion of our Com merce by Peace, were entitled to no credit, was not very logical or conclusive. The Noble Lord had said, that our Commerce had found its way into all the Ports of Europe, io spite of every prohibition ; but this assertion might only extend to a certain degree—it did not follow, that because our goods found their :way into these Potts, or were even landed, that they might not be stopped by some in land prohibitiOn.—That France shewed a disposi tion to destroy the Commerce of this Country was, he thought, so evident, that it was ;t kind of comic extravagance to doubt it. , They told us they would do it, and shewed us how they would do ; buy yet • we said we could not believe 'it—it mtr,,t be a joke. We had now to contend against a Power which had not been seen since the days of the Ro mans, or at-least since the time of CHARLEMAGNE. It did- not appear to him, that Capital and Confi dence were sufficient to enable us to contend against this enormous Power ; to .them must be added, the great Maritime Strength of the Country—to.thein must be added, • the proud Independence and manly Spirit of the Country—to them must be added, that .high sense of Honour, which was not prone to sub init to degradation or to insult'. He would agree with his Noble Friend upon the value of capital and confidence, of Honesty and Punduality, but he must . also - be allowed to set a value upon'the Arms of the , Cotintry.. . _Before this Country possessed Capital or Commerce, she made a figure in Arms ; hut now it seemed to be an- opinion with many, that when our Navy was up, we might go to bed. He hoped that . a sense of the danger which threatened us would rouse the people to those exertions which were necessary to guard them against those designs by which we, were to be. destroyed. When his-, Noble Friend talked of Capital and Wealth, he begged Gentlemen. to consider what Capital and Wealth had done, or what it would do. We could not judge in this rase from anterior events, we were now. in a situation wholly dissimilar to any former situation in which we had, been placed, a!nd to which no prinCiple drawn froni former events would apply. Our present situation must be judged of from its own circumstances, and could not be considered in any point of view derived from .for mer experience. It could not be argued that the same advantages could now be drawn from Capital , and Wealth as in former circumstances ) because those circumstances could not be applied" to our present situation. He would not dwell longer upon these topics, but merely repeat, with respett to the question, that the measure appeared to be prema ture, as we'did not yet know that the duties ,in America were abolished. Lord HAWTESBURY: rose to explain, and ob served, that his Hon. Friend would not have mis represented what he stated, but Might have mis conceived it. He had maintained; that the Com merce and the Capital of this Country were suf. ficient for the purposes which he had stated, if we were true to oursebves. By being true to ourselves he meant, not merely to trust to our wealthy and he thought he had guarded against any misconception in that particular by what he said, both previous to the use of that expression and after it : namely, that no man was more convinced than he was, of the absolute necessity of our , holding high our Na tional Honour, and to consider it as the most va luable of all our treasures, and consequently, the necessity of resisting every,aet of degradation, hu miliation, or improper concession. *E he difference between him and his Hon. Friend on that subjed he believed was this, that he considered our power, in that respeet, was more' effeecual than his Hon,. Friend seemed to suppose' it to be, comparing our resources' with those we had to contend with. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was sure the House would attest the - sentiment which waS due to the Noble Lord who had just sat down, and join in the declaration which he was about to make, as the result of , a convitio►i in his mind that his Noble Friend• had no intention, in the sentiment he expressed, to recommend any abatement of the high spirit of this Country, and reposing upon our wealth independent of our courage. Such a sentiment had never been uttered, and he was confident had never been harboured by his Noble Friend. The whole of his public life was a continued series of proofs to the contrary i every sentiment that had ever been uttered by him in that frotit'e, and every aelion cf hii life proved him to .possess 4- spirit that would not compronlise theln terests of his Country, by reposing wills confiderce' , upon its wealth, independent of its. Military exer. tions. He knew/ of no Man in that House, .or in this Cobntry, to whom such an imputation could he made with less propriety ; and indeed, it was matter too much of course .to assume that a high lofty spirit of courage and vigour were incompatible With commerce, and the pursuits of gain ; and that a Nation could not excel in both. This was a sere_ timent which in reason was not juste-in policy was not eligible, in experience, as applicable at least 'to this Country, absolutely false; for; we had found in the course of the last twelve years, a growing commerce, and certainly not •a declining a spitit of ardour, of zeal, and courage, in the cause of our Country, manifested in all the exertions of our Army, of our Navy, and every branch of the public force ; • every, part of the public service repudiated and falsified , the supposition that a commercial and a wealthy country cannot . pre_ serve its advantages over other States by unit ing military excellence .with its superior. wealth ; this Country was happily a splendid instance . of both. His Right Honourable Friend had dwelt on a topic on which it was natural . he should; and; indeed, it was one of those subjeas which no lover of his Country could contemplate without sharing in a feeling of apprehension—he meant the power of France. This was a power which he had never endeavoured . to 'under -rate, and, he was willing to confess, he contemplated with apprehension : but he trusted there was nothing to be dreaded.from that power, when compared with our own. This only induced in us a sentiment which called , upon our vigilance, and, if necessary, our exertions.— We might be placed in'a state of difficulty, but cer tainly notOf alespondence. He did not seek for a counterpoise to the power of France- merely in the wealth of Great Britain, although indeed that was most abundant., but it Was' to be found in the ani mus of the People; . and under all exigencies, 'that spirit would be tile true conservator of its power, and prOteatir of its dominion. 'Were it not- for that spirit, he should indeed look upon France as a Colossus, as a tremendous power,- likely to over wheltil us , hut when. he perceived that spirit aided and supported by' the weath, and rewarded by the prosperity and glory.of the Nation, which afforded ,nit consolation only, but triumph—independent of such a spirit we should be miserable indeed, hut with it, we had nothing to fear. It was a spirit 'that was tried upon many occasions, and had never beer. found wanting—lt was here . that he looked for the true counterpoise of, the power of France, and here, he believed and trusted, he should never rook for it in vain. His Right Hon. .Friend, in re ference to the 'Bill now upon the Table, rather nar rowed the objed of, his Hon. and Learned Friend fir. LAWRENCE), if he would permit him to call SO. - His Right tion ' Friend seemed chiefly to objet to the time of bringing this subjea forward, which was certainly a narrower point of view than that in which his Learned Friend had taken His: Right Honourable Friend stated this as ,par-. taking too Mach rather of that conciliatory spirit, which migia be injurious if carried to too great an extent, as he thought it might he in sonic instances, by which he. considered the power of this Government might be weakened. As to that conciliatory spirit, he was ready to admit, that unlesS accompanied by firmness, it was dange -rods- to a State but if firmne-sa wan united to a conciliatory spirit, it was likely to produce the most desirable effeds—a disposition and a feeling of the same kind in others. That was the sense in which he wished tolareserve 'a Conciliatory spirit, and in that view it appeared to him the best, because the easiest, and at the same • time the most effectual means of linking the interests of the two Countries. His H6n. and Learned Friend seemed to suppose it a gratuitous and voluntary measure on our ,part to adopt the principle of the present Bill ; this, his Hon. and Learned Friend would permit him to state, was a 'misapprehension of the faa. The principle of this Bill originated with the American Govern ' merit ; it was not, as his Hon. and Learned Friend had stilted it, a precipitate.and incautious' ad of good nature on the, part of this Country ; it - did not originate with us, it originated in America, arid it was in Consequence of an application made on the part of the . Goyernment of that Country to this; that the measure now before the Hose was brought forward. It had been stated also, that the principle. of this Bill was hostile to. the Navigation LaWsol` this Country, which it certainly was not,'but which he would not now argue, since that subjed, as well, indeed, as almost every Other, had been anost ably discussed by his Right H n. Friend. It had been asked also, what benefit would be detived tram the mea sure which was now before the House ? To which he answered, it was a benefit to the Export Trade, and it was a benefit also to us, -in preserving time advantages and profits of the Trade, arising from consignments and deposits ; these were, some of the - advantages Which this measure was likely to pro duce to the trading interests of this Country, andin that view, it was an interesting objed, But, in :dependent of this, there was an obligation upon us e which superseded considerations of expediency ; the obligation of the Treaty of i79e itself, which left us no alternative ; besides, without such a mea sure as this, the real understanding between this country and America could never be carried into Offed, for the system of . Countervailing Duties could never operate as an equivalent, and this arose from the different natures of our trades; and that consideration would be an inducement to adopting this measure if were not required by the spirit Odic Treaty. It had been said by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. WINDHAm), that we calculated precipitately ort the probability dour continuing to preserve the same advantages in Commerce during Peace, as we pos sessed in War; and he said, that as soon as that de sirable event.should take place, every effort would be exerted to exclude us- from the advantages of Commerce in every part of the world where it was pradicable: that the, COmmerce of Great Britain ,would be excluded, if possible,_ from the greater part of Europe. That such, indeed, might be the disposition, - he could easily conceive, but it was not a disposition which was peculiar to a state of- Peace; every exertion had been made to give ill effea, all over Europe, during the Whole War. VO, We li:Jd been eteladedieas fat as' the power of , Enemy could go, and yet, notwithstanding all the ravages of War, which must have diminished 'cone siderably the demands for many of our articles of trade, 'British Commerce had found its way every where : it was now in. extent 'Very little short of What it was, at the commencement of hostilities. Btit • there was another point in „which to. view this .sub- • jed, and that was, the'Commerce which we must; at all events, have from our, East India Possessions, and, by this measure, from America. What then was there in Peace that was likely to abridge these two great sources of Commerce and Revenue ? He certainly knew of nothing that was likely to pro, duce that effect ; but supposing that the spirit' of exclusion was greater' in Peace than in War, he did not therefore see any reason for not adopting the measure Row before the House ; on the con trary, it rather _increased the obligation to adopt it, as being the means of increasing our Commerce • and Revenues, and giving us radical advantages which it would not be in the power of France to interrupt. It therefore was - not only a justification for entertaining the Bill now before the House, but was an inducement to . adopt it. In a word, his Noble Friend had gone through the whole of that Bill, and discussed its merits so amply and so ably, as, vvithou't intending any direspea to his Hon. FriendS on the other side of the House, left no doubts upon the subject ; he had fully answered all that was stated on the other side, from which he was led to imagine, that all the objedions to the Bill were'now done away. The most strong and powerful observations of his Hon. Friends on. the other side did not apply' to the provisions of this Bill, nor to its principle, but merely to the time ; nor did he k n o w of-any legitim a te reason against any part of the measure now before the House. Mr. NICHOLLS said, that some of the argu. ments used by the Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, required, in his opinion, to be answered. Gentlemen had stated the formidable power of . France. The danger to which we 1% ere exposed in our Commerce and Political Power. No man had more apprehension of the power of France than himself,, and if he 'was at, advocate for Peace, it was for the purpose of affording to Europe an op portunity of gaining strength, so as to be able here after to balance the power of eFeence. However great the power of France might be, and dim_ gerous to cur Political Power, he would 'put it to'. the feeling of every , man in the House, whether that consideration should not operate as a reason for our cultivating, a good understand ing between. this Country and. America? Viewed in a commercial light, there was no country which offer, ed to become so good - a customer to us as Ame rica : Every hour increased her demand; for our goods, for our manufaaores. She would always, .orat least a very long while continue to purchase our manufaaures, for they would long continue to want them, as-did indeed most of the nations of the globe, but the Americans particularly, from their customs and their habits, 'and again from the very high price of labour in America that country would • always be prevented from rivalling us in the foreign marker. It had been said on a former night, by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WINDHAM), that there is' now remaining'out of the grasp of „France, only two Independent ['ewers on the Continent Russia and Austria' e taking that to be so, he con. sidered that es an additional reason for this court. try cultivating a good understanding and com. cnereial conneaion With ,Ameeica—lt was said that this was an improper time to adopt this measure, or to think of a Treaty of this kind. He • thought the contra& ; he considered the time and the circumstances of both Countries highly favourable for the adoption of such a measure as this—He apt. proved also of the form, as well as principle of the Bill, on account of its lodging. the power - of the Treaty, that is, giving the discretion, whether the . Provisions of it shall be adopted or not, to the Crown. The whole original power concerning Treaties, was of right; constitutionally, in the Crown. The power of the other two branches of the Legislature, was only that of considering these Treaties, and of deliberating on measures for car: tying them into effect. He approved, the'refore, of the measure before the Holls . e,'. as it tended to re establish the Constitutional 'Prerogative of the Crown in this t-espeEt ; a point, in his opinion, highly proper,, and CondUcive to the substantial in. terest of this Country, at this period. The Hon. and Learned Gentlemap seemed to think, that Mr. J FFERSON might, from the habits of his edueation and political principles, be inclined co favotir France rather than this Country.- He would not undertake to . say, how that might .be ; but if the case be so, he considered it as an additional reason for this Country adopting' this measure, in order that we might unite - the more closely with AMerica, and by so doing, coonteraaalfat disposition the - Chief Magistrate of. the United Stales : so that his par tiality to Franc,. if he had any, might be the less detrimental 'to this Country. Viewing this mea sure in the, best and most comprehensive way 'he was able, he was led to approve. it very much. He applauded . the wisdom of Ministers in coming to ParliaMent with .a measure, the effea of which would be to draw into a closer connection this Country and America. A policy, in his opihion, of. the soundest kind, in the present condition of the affairs of the world : Lot these reasons he thought it his duty to declare himself decidedly in favour of this and . he thought Ministers entitled to great credit for bringing it forward. The question was then put and the Bill was' read a second time. e The question being put, that the Bill be commit- Dr. L AWRENCE took ticeasion.tp observe, that what he before said, might' perhaps require some explanation. He merely meant to discharge hi; duty in the House, by calling on it to be cautious in what it was about to,adopt ; but he could not do that, nor,any other duty effectually, if-he did not puarimself right with those who were to judge of the performance of that duty, namely,' the Hortse... He should therefore., with permission, correct a few unintentional errors, N%:hich appeared in the speech of the Noble Lord on the oth-er side ofthe House. He had said, that..a luotatiOn had heal' made 'to. night, cut 4.a book, which s he 'might have read on the occasion, when the subjea of the clairuS - o.f . the : •