The Sun. — London, England, 1813-03-09 00:00:00

to subalterns... The calculation of of the dress and, accoutreme n t s : of a. Dragoons, sin ce t h e changes ill tini by the Board of Clothing, was as-fol ;et, 231.; Pelisse, 21/. ; Embroidered ; Sword and Cap, &c. 601. ; swik -1081. ; to .which must he added the the horse, which amounted to about ing in all, nearly 1201. for the dress lents of every' kind neeesjary to a Leer in a dragoon regiment. _There- Ile yeas, his expellees for dress, 3tc: to 300/. at leasf; while the pay of only 1561. t, whose hatrie we could not learo, length against several parts of the eobsetved that the Noble Lord had 'e 10 ss of the •British army in the 4000 men w'ithin, the last 'tour by the Gazette the loss only ap not much 'note- 'than 1500. He lw whether .the loss was not fairly, :ountry was not afraid to know the hiss, but it 'might be 'allowed to IS it had really suffered, and what 'petted. He observed that a eharge the senior and .junior departmthies 'Ty Colleges. •In the junior depart 'vs only the small number of four' 'weive young men on whom a public Ulan was bestowed: This was a Sher insignificant, when it was eon aiere 'was a standing army of 300,000 :git senior department there was a nutn- IDOre -eottteinptiblyonly thirty P. 6 , 40 ti rose to state some o b jec t ions - al. ol ,...qhhi c h had, been brought - to the tinble Lord.'l He- thought that ' 4 ' 0 44 in the expene - es of the arniy heeessary ; for if the expenditure led t o be as great as It had been'tor 'St, the Country would beinvolv-, from whi c h it could not. be easily e was, however, surprisedto find, ilhy retrenchment In the expenses. 't Was propos e d b y t h e E st i mates -Noble Lord, that it should'be 'crease,(. The. first- . increase was hold Troops, cOmmonly called the 'n that body there was an iincreas s,ooo/. Thi s was an anglie"6l-. !In amount, that the. Committee Very seriously before they granted of this great augmentation in :c, was sa i d to be the addition of id these troops were said to be ne the corps were sent upon Foreign !• But it had been allowed that .roop s Of a description fitted to be 1 1.4 1 i service. He himself in jug, on was, account of his ignorance ,rs ; but every Officer with %Thom th d the subject, co n curred in be t ott however worse, ,they certain ter calculated for 'Foreigti service les of cas ll , night have their stea , d ; while ere certainly better than any others. from - their ,suited for the Ihus seod- GtJards broa , d , 1 had 'toe count r y ro (1(1,iti01111 CXpCillle, while city less ti ably perfomed. an, after the battle of Salts.- tten to Government expressing a einforeestienvof c - avalry, t o ena bl e stile. .the war more advantageously' on The battle of Salamanca,- the 22d of July; and the Life iail until. October, and did not ar- Wellington had retired upon the. ugal. There certainly \vas snore hrps which might 'have been sent.. would likewise have been more ign service. There were in the two thousand fOreign cavalry in ice, whom, he thought might have 'er. He did not mean to speak jealousy of the ntlinher of fo- Ale British service ; but he thought of the foreign troops k the ser for,foreign .service, it was cer Y. Besides - , the foreign cavalry. were only 1800 with our .army inguished itself very much by its Peninsula. If there was. so large- Ti ea vah'y in the kingdoth as 2400, vith Lind Wellington, he saw no of those 2400 should not have ad of the Life Guards. The ex hut the latter was enormous. The stated that the augmentation of dragoons to the amount of 210 ust 9000/. Such being the case, lerstand Maw thp,addition of only e Life. Guards shduld have cost 0,000/.. The. ne4t part of the ES he would call the attention of the nissinn. It had been customary to y Estimates, the number of the .ayed at hoine, and al so the number h tras a point too essential to The comparative numbers of ,e :Ind abroad had. of late years ;toed iit favour of the latter. In r of troops at home 'Was 133;902, etttployed at home in. 1.812 was. IN iblc L or d had said a great. vantages of h av i ng a .large staff 1 r 'telling how necessary it was to. rtaff abroad, be forgot the other ,position, and neglected to say, abroad iegoired a large Staff,' ',()tne' required only a small Staff. ,2tatis Oflicers'at home was much 'e member of troops. There was gene b e : lott bosts Staff Officers-- 'kti,ap' I'd ' Of an t l„ l . ry, witnout any cavalry tiY„..hirant.va4tie!'t-Generals Of nfany, with ! 4;1411044 t: connuand.—(ger, hear.)—lt Sslit asß nme, that a great part ith ,of i vzi , Vast .o: m t,',ld not be dispensed h 4 . t: the sti the old Which he object Iti,4lo4aards 10,000/. fOr • • object 1 th e 4t tePturing the ~ 144 ustito at whigh hadbeen ins t jai` li t h h t t il ta L at t a e t b e4 es nt several preceding years. tild e 0 .., t mode would be to have 'ut ea;f i ` of the sums expended on' 'the te rucik year, and that the Com- ?Mace sluould always vote the unit bat beep expendvd in the preertlim..; year, and 110 t vote a vague stun which might be much more than requisite. Among the other large sums menthe„ ..L in the Estimate was 209,000/. for t!„ , supilt/t'of 'the Volunteer Corps-„thrOughout the iiingdont.-- • lie thought that ever after the' establishment of the Local Militia, voltmteerd had become unneces sary. From his owtAitiowledg , e, he wascouvine ed that these Volunteer Corps,' in many districts, were merely in nominal. *existence. • When all the . more honourable motives, which had originally led. to the establishment of these eprus,•Were taken • away, he feared that they were thew , merely kept up as a means of avoiding enrollment -in'the Mili tat. , There was likewise a charge of 13,000/. for the Volunteer Staff. if such.reductions as he al luded to were adopted, it would.enahlethe coun try to curry on otfedsive :operations upoa • a largett ,scale. Such.a plan would be'much better than a symem of defence, which had its origin in circum stances different from those hu which the couns . ry was .now placed, and whit.li system of defence in - all its parts, as well as with respect to thy; bea coni, erected on different points of , the coast Was persisted in,, after the occasion . for it ceased* to exist. Mr. AprirszoToN said, that he wished to trouble the Committee with only a few observations- on some topics that had been urged by his Hon. • Friend who had just sat down, and an-HonouP. *able Gentleman. (Mr. Law), -who bad spoken early in the debate,- whom he had many reasons for having heard, •then for the first time, with real pleasure, -though he tnust own it- would have. been much greater, had not his opiniOnS' been so much at variance with his own. That lion. Gem= tleman had contended against the practice, of making the Militia the medium. for recruiting for the Line on Iwo grountisi tirsi, that it gave offence to the Commanding Officers of the Militia, 'and, secondly, - on account of the expellee Incurred by • the' double. botinties. He begged leave: to assure him, that very few of the- Militia Colonels re-- mained adverse to the measure, especially since it had been Made, by .a Legislative Act, not a part 'of the military system of the country; and he applauded the puhlie spirit Of those`wbo subdued their prejudices, or conquered their - objections, in deference to the consideration of the permanent importance of increasing, by all possible means,' the disposable force of 'Aim country. Tbis was, ,almost, tilt first national desideratum, , when- he .considerect.the nature and extent of the war in which we were engaged. - As to, the comparative expence of recruiting direct' into ti Line, or through the medium of the Militia, he could as sure' the House that . the difference was ieconsi dcrtble; notwithstanding time- double .bounties. \He had made out an estimate from authentic-do cuments ; and be could ' demonstrate that in no case the difference' exceeded between 4 and pounds - per than, and that after the first volun teering froni the Militia, the expetice was nearly equal.---The. Hon. Gent. just sat dbwn had express ed an opininn of the inutility and'-unneassary ex pence of keeping imp the volunteer force of the' country. Qf -the ificalcutable service rendered by that meritorious body of men he could not ex press himself in terms ,of adequate 'panegyric. Perhaps he might agree in some of his aonoura-- ble Friend's observations respecting them. • The "subject bad been for stint° time under the con sideration of his Noble - Relation ; and he hoped the Home would give him credit fur those having beep sufficient reasons why any lie v arrangement resPectiug them had not as yet been submitted to its consideration. As to the Local Militia, a part -of our defensiye force still more valuable, Lie ex- Fpressed' in strong terms his surprise-, that his -lion. riend should have even suggested -the propriety of abstaining front calling them net this year, when they consisted almost' entirely of raw re :crofts'—before they had even received their cloth- before officers and /nen knew any thing of each other. In case of any internal distur bance, they would' be little better, if. calbmd out •to suppress it, than a mere rabble. Hp implored .the House not to apply too rigidly the princiPles 'of economy to this valuable branch of our deler,. sive force, which was as yet in. its- haancy ; and • to bear in mind that, in the vicissitudes of human affairs, of which we bud even recently such strik ing proofs, we 'might have occasion bitterly to regret;- that in a moment of internal repose and freedom t'roin external danger, we bad neglected to.-fostor and improve that branch of our defen sive force, in which the public\ spirit of the . country had so entirely committed itself, and on which so much dependence was 'to be placed-in ease of any such necessity. Tti think . this impos sible was tile' height of Mr..lNEsstswi-La said there were two points, upon which he wished to wake a few observations ; the. increase in the Household troops was. otaly , 900, and yet the increase of expense was 38,0001:-. The proportion of cavalry, in the increase was 400. he pay given to thetn, was-greater than to. any-- other corps. The expense - 01 „recrinting thought was extravagant. It was at xlie.rate of 341. for each man. Thereeruiting establishment was mk more expensive one than any one in the comm.; try. The Staff had been considerably increased, without any correkpan i ding increase of the arms/. There was also 20751. a-year allowed to Gen. De laney for services not svell . performed., _ln;the 'fo reign corps the increase Since last y ear was 1422, mind the inc,rease of expellee wa5‘58,892/. • This he thought too much. The Military College he approved Of very much.' it Nir,fiS an honour to the country,; but the expellee hi some. branches, par ticularly that for fnel, was too-great. In one year it unmounted to 40001, The estimate for the Bur racks in Ireland he could not vote until the details were before the House. Mr. CIIEEVEY said, he would propose a decreaie in the expenditure of the country, by throwing overboard one of the Paymasters of the Forces. •Tbe Bill for the abolition of sinecures had been rejected by the Lords, on the ground that it em braced too many Objects'. It was his intention therefore to 'remove them one by one, and the House should, in his opinion, act with re s pect to the place in question, as they had clone with re spect to the Vaymaster of Widows' Pensions, and when they •came• to the seventh ,resolution, he shonld ptopose to leave at ZOO/. the salary of the Noble Lord opposite (Somerset), and his Deputy. 140 . 111CLIAVLES SODitERET said, that unacciistoin ed as he-was to address the House, lie shoirld not trouble them upon thepresent. occasion, were it not. - for the allusion made to the.office which - hehad rlat honoer of filling. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Creevey), stated; bathe founded his proposal with respect to one of the Paymasters, upon the i report of the Select CoMmittee ape's Sinecure There - was a Bill now in progress throogh ths House upon the subject:. ,It did therefore appear to him prematuee, if not novel, to tall for a deci, sion. upon one particular part of the Bill. He doubted whether the removal of one of the Pay- Masters would have the effect &Sired. * He would ask them whether they, would 'pass such a censure on the memory of Mr. Burke, as to resolve that• the salary of an office• should he rediked which he, did not consider overpaid by 700 G/. a year ? The salary was not 'increased mice Mr. Burke's time, it was only divided between two, and this divi sion gave additional security to the public. •, Mr. lao:sa , adinitted, that netthe Cmoruittee al tinted to, the abolition of one of the Paymaster ships was recommended ; but that office was not under the .same, circumstances us the Paymaster shiP of Widows Pensions. Thelatter was-ae office in the gift of the Crown, the abolition of which had been frequently *recommended to Parliament. The salary of Paymaster of the Forces had not been at nil increased.' : In theyear 1715, when the office was held by .the Earl of Lincoln,. the emolument of the office was 3730/. a-year, and so it couti nuedlol7B2, .when. Mr. Burke brought in his Bill to regulate the Army Pay Office. In 1.783 thelees were abolished, and the salary settled at - four thousand 'pounds per annuin. In the Commit tee on Sinecure Plac:s, after 'full consideration (if the nature of the fiziffice, and the labours at- . *fled. to t it, At was determined that the sa.. lary of. Payniaster ought not to be reduced.— Wirer) he came into ,the office he found angtrreai of 23 yeaa• standing, for in truth no account had, beeu passed since the time of Mr. Burke. , That gentleman, however great, his talents in other re spects, was, perhaps, -on that very sic:count the least fitted of any Man for the dry details Ofollice. Since he -came into the situation, fourteen years accounts had seen passed. Since the_ adoption of the new -system in that office, the home accounts 'for 1809% 10, and 11; had, been passed, and that for 1812 was now in progress. The foreign ac-. counts Were'in the same state of forwardnes.-:-- - The result of the plan at, present purseed was; that 'no-irregularity Or arrear enual arise without the knowledge or the Auditors of Public Ac counts. He could assure the House that since he held the situation lie had been never absent from it more than one week together. Such an office could not be thought to be considered a sinecure. it was said that the 'whole of the business fell upon him-- , he could however assure them, that. whenever* there was occasion*. his Noble Friend (Somerset) Offered to share the labour. .1.16 was convinced that the abolition of the-office Would not contribute io any public advantage.. The re :, apousrodity o f it had been snitch in. -Teased, and be hoped therefore the House would not consent to deprease the salary. , it r El, did not abject to the place or to the salery ; what he objected to .was, that the. office should he - divided, for the purpose *at creat ing two ParliamentarY places. .It was said, that the Right Hon: elientlefean (Mr. bong) •receieed only a salary 1 20001.; bet he had 'a pension, of 20001. more. : Mr. LONG said, across the table that the pen sion was only 15001., Mr. CREEVIir answered; that it was 150 W. be 'sides a house which was atileast 5001. more. It whs, true; that in 1806 be' voted the Estimates without objecting to ,the Payinastersbip ; but he objected to it now, on the I. , ,;i'oand of a. 'Re solution passed in a Committee that sat in 1810. Mr. }IILEY ADDINGTON assured the 1101Ig4 that the pension granted to the . [tight limmurable Gentleman •(Mr. Long) was given at the viaticu-. far desire„ , Of his Majesty,. for the services Mr; 14011 g had performed as Secretary of the,Treasui y.: Lord PALMERSTINZ rose to, reply. He could 'not at an'eonsider it unfair that the Militia ‘sere allowed, to volauteer into the regular service. They ‘yere allowed four : days to reemisider the step they had adopted, and every care was taken -by the Commander in Chief that in, the course of the volunteering f •no unfair proceeding should he had recourse to.—Some 'facetious observations had been made on the dress o f th e q uar d s ,,Wh o, had been' called Orlalidos' and Rinaldos. He did not doubt but they would equal the valour of those 'heroes when they came into action. • Their cloth ing. was paid' for partly by the Colonel, and `partly by stoppages of ,their money. The various alterations made in their dress were effected, not to make &them appear. fine Gentle.. men in the, streets, hut because it was thonght.they would be conducive their-comfort, and beneficial to the service. Their helmets had been called fanta3tical and theatrical, but when the Committee reffeeted On the evils to • which the poor eav,ilty WC t. suojccttal, expostAL m their. little cocked hats to the effects of the rain, or los ing them, from the difficulty of keeping theta fixed on the head, and consequently going bare headed into battle, it would be felt that it was 1121101 better that they should be supplied with. a' comfortable helmet, which could not be knocked off, arid the metal of whivh would turn tie 'edge of a sword. Ile denied that , the foreigners 'in _bur service increased in proportion to the re,st of the' army. If it were practicable to augment our army with English. soldiers- to that amount • to which- it was desirable it should extend, he was. confident there was no one %rho would not prefer such an army to an army partly com posed of foreigners. , , It was, however,• With Go vernment a question not of option, but' of fieCCS ',shy, whether foreigners should be admitted into our service. Engaged in " a sanguinary contest LS ith an enemy whose resources were almost un limited, as, our array could 'not be recruited be yond a given point 'with Englishmen, it Was ti cessary to make up the number, required by the scireumitauces of the times with foreigners I,vllo claimed , our protection:. Taking this into -con» , sideration, and comparing-the casualties, it would be found that the foreign soldiers bad suffered' in proportion to, their number,-full as much as the British, or, rather more. It had been observed that the returns in the Gazette& differed from the . • returns laid befo:'e that house: watt 0)10'4., to - he he accounted' for, as the Gazettes did not contain dischargei, nor the desertlons Of which took place here), but'he - cooldauiethc 'Committee the GaiCttts w' re entitled to the fullest and •most confidence; and he knew net ,of one instance of intentional-faiihlettsaess , in any return which they had contained. That wis .stakes might occur in the hurry of Making up the returns 'after a great battle ; it was easy to con ceive; on the paFt• of the Officers ; but intention -ally they never eoncelled the full exteut of : - 14e loss sustained, and every - ease received Was• pub- ' fished in the Gnzette. It_ was' a subject of regret that no dintinution of expence appeared on the. present EStimates, but this . he thought ,Could Licit have been expe c t e d a t a' period when we were • .called upon us strain every nerve to offer effectual resistance to the enemy. At A tune when 'cult great efforts were called for, a redaction thee Estimates could not be 'looked for ; and he Ich it Avoilld be trifling with the House to hold fent . them a hope or an encouragement to expect that any great saving, in the present circumstances of the world, could be effected. It had been said that immediately on the receipt of \ the news of :the , • battle of iSalamanca; cavalry ought. to have been sent out to Lord Wellington, to enable him to ad vance in pursuit of the enemy. Now what was the, state df the case Iminediately on receiving neWa-,,0f that action, Ministers sent out, n o t ca valry, hat a corps of infantry ; and these, 60110 sent with the utmost expedition, did not juitt Lord Wellington till he .had commenced his reH treat, nor indeed, till in point of fact his retreat might be said to be concluded. , Froin this it was clear that no advantage would have arisen.froin sending out any other body of cai'alry instead of the Life Guards, as such assistance could nut have reached Lord Wellington in time to enah:e' him to advance, .nor time enough to assist hint in his , re treat. 16 ans•ker to the' observations thrown out on the conduct . of MinisterS, for not sending out a German regiment of cavalry. be had to state, e that three out of four regintentsPof German cavalry • in our service tvere in the Peninsula. With respect to the 10,0001. called for, for repairs of the Horse Guards, to which so much objection had been made, he wished to state 'that this included not only the repairs done at 'the ,Horse Guards, but also those which came under :be cognizanc...., of the Sunieyor of the Horse Guards, namely, thOse at the Pay ,Office, at one of the Secretary of States Olfices, and those done.to the Barracks at . Knightsbridge, and to certain other buildirigs He then proceeded to defend the propriety of call- . ing out the LOtal Militia this year On this head no diminution could at` present be effected. The • 'recruiting establishments which had been noticed were Of important use, and in every respect he cessary. The Veteran Battalioas, consisting of Foreigners, had been formed, of invalids , who •, were not fit for service, and whoth it would haVe - been an act of manifest !cruelty, ir the present, state, of the Continent, to have sent•to thew own country. The item was new'to these Estimates, LtilYing been brought front 'the Army Extritortli naries, Its amount Was about 15,00/. The eX petiee of the Military Collegelhe admitted to be great ; belt he contended it was an establishment of great value to the country, us he thought the Cadets quite adequate to furnish the army with a stapply of well educated oilieers. The Irish Barrack Estimates he defend e d, as being neces-T sail from the' state of the coantry, and he had no hesitation in saying, they effused a saving to the country. - He - concluded', 'shortly noticing 'what lead been said' with respest to the Pay master-General; and expressing a hope, that a 3 improvements were being atteamed in the g,.:3e ral system . , the House would %vat berore they' made any alteration sin one particular part of it, . rill theiwhole was before their. Mr. - WHITEREAp and Lord CASTLEREAGH . MIA , tut3l4 explained. . • Mr, BANKES thought there might' be a dedue— tion of ti or. NAM/. out - of the Military :ex- Fences of the year. He estimated the expense of calling onethe•Volunteers at 209,0001., and the . exercise of the Local Militia At 450,0001., and in sisted that these forces were equally availabl e f or service by its being known where to procure them at tl shortest notice, as by the drilling and rading. He did not expect to gain assent to this proposition noW, but he hoped Gentlemen would consider the matter. He then made omne re marks against the doable office of Paymaster, in sisting that it was at once inconsistent with eco nomy, and was highly inefficient. • 14 . 40 CASTLEREAGH rose again to observe, that Lord Wellington had expressed the strongest ap probation of the Life Guards which had been sent out to him. , Mr. W. SMITH agreed with the Noble Lord {Castlereagh) as to the expediency of keeping up the Local Militia, as a strong and permanent de ilefice of the country. He then condemned in the strongest terms the dress of the Cavalry, and said there was but One feelingout of the Rouse on - this ,nhject. He denied that permanent barracks were I.•ss expensive than temporary, because permanent barracks mmt be a dead and useless chargo in time of pence. If the Paymaster's dory could be performed 'by one person, it ought to be perfoun ed by one person. Lord Mttvbx followed to the same effect. Lard PALTSILgsTorr explained, that 'what lie had said with respect to small savings referred to the impossibility of reducing the great bulk of tit& estimate. 111 r. I - IttsKtssoN wi,hed the postponement (if the vote, us to the Home Stall', till more informA tion could be obtained. Lard CASTLEREAfiaI expressed a contrary wish, as he thought there was no probability of u data ot this !Ma of the expenditure. There %Vera 110 t IeSS thUll 130,000 Melt till bonie service in Engimid and Ireland. This body tequired'a l arg o superintending Staff. The House then divided on If. Creevey's Amendment, Fur it 43—Agaiitst. it 124-7—Majt4ity against it Oct our return to the Gallery, Mr. It. Tuoabv• NO moved for the production Of some paper 6 rn lati,ve to the East xu<ita Affairs ; and Lord CA-i- TLEnEiGIi, postponed his notice on this /11,00iTCr till Friday se'nnight. `The other orders were then disposed of, arid the House 4pm-fled at half-past twelve o'clock ' . i. Spence t " I el Peace of ;e4 tract of Dr ve lonule - iti b y 'sJacket Ilc ''takons, 41 a !total of 1 )3- lire of th in 1.,181. niakir to lecoilti•etui It' 'ter n offi e ?3.. 4in tl INIIOI 0, i attiount was 0 i s . i Nr tia ell it at . E ' 1 - mOnie .t 115 t". lie 11:'I f t i llat till , , ~,tlTia V,'113 fa Ai ; but li' . 11 (4 t, hi , 0" - Atil t) ,v," 1 i,, ! . tz to t ,,, , hn0, ;.c. zit oi l!' 1. :0 . 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