The Sun. — London, England, 1859-08-06 00:00:00

gestion, although in some matters of detail it was not com pletely in accordance with the recommendation of the corn- , missioners. The bill proposed that a number not exceeding 30,000 men should be invitedto enrol themselves for a period of five years; that for that term each man should receive £ 5 per annum • that they should be called out for training for 28 days in the year, and that during that time they should receive non-continuous service pay according ta the rating they might hold. It was also proposed that at the expira tion of the five years these men should have the option of retiring from the force, or of re-enrolling themselves for a further period of five years. If the country should remain at peace they would each during their five years' service have received a sum of £25 in addition to the month's pay during their training, and if they were enrolled at the ex piration of 10 years' service they would be entitled to pen sions. Supposing, however, that this country should un hapily be involved in war, it was proposed that by Royal proclamation these men should be at once called upon to enter for active service in the fleet in any part of the world. There would be a claim upon their services for three years certain, and if at the end of that period war did not cease power was given by the bill to require them to serve for two years more, they receiving at the same time the pay of continuous service men, which would be 2d. a-day addi tiOnal for the last two years, whatever rating . they might hold. In the event of war, therefore, the services of these men could be counted upon for a period of five years. There were seine details with regard to this subject, especially re specting. pensions, which it would be difficult to embody in a legislative measure. The Board of Admiralty had consi dered very carefully the proposals of the Royal commission as to the deferred pensions at the age of 50 or 55, and it was thought that under some circumstances it would be a hard ship upon seamen if the Government were restricted to the power of granting pensions at those ages. Cases might oc cur in which seamen had served faithfully during war, and had suffered in health, and, although not eligible for pen sions in consequence of wounds, the grant of pensions might be perfectly justifiable. On the other hand, supposing the country to remain at peace, it became a question whether a man who had entered the force at the age of 20 years, and who had served for 10 years, should be entitled to claim the same amount of pension as if he had been engaged in active service before an enemy. It was thought, therefore, that it would be a matter of great difficulty to deal with the ques tion of pensions by an act of Parliament, and it was consi dered that the better course would be to leave these details to the regulation of the Admiralty, if the house gave its as sent to this bill. (Hear.) He was bound to tell the house that this was only an experiment. (Hear, hear.) They had no experience to guide them on the subject, and there fore he could not tell the house that he felt confidence that the plan would be perfectly successfal. He hoped, how ever, that it would be successful, and he was sure that was the feeling of the House of Commons and of the public. (Hear, hear.) His opinion was that the best mode of at taining a successful result would be not to tie the hands of the Admiralty by Acts of Parliament ; but ho trusted that by communication with the Board of Trade, with the ship ping masters, and with that efficient officer, Captain Brown, the Registrar-General of Seamen, and other persons con nected with the merchant service, they might be enabled to frame regulations which would induce our merchant sea men to flock to the Royal navy. (Hear , hear.) He be lieved that men-of-war's men did not thoroughly under stand the merchant sailors. (Hear, hear.) There had been a misunderstanding in the navy with regard to the merchant service ; and he knew that merchant seamen had said they would be delighted to serve in the navy if they were satis fied they would be treated in the manner to which they thought themselves entitled. He could only say that the Board of Admiralty desired most ardently to effect a good -understanding between the merchant service and the Royal navy, and to establish between the two services feelings of mutual respect and affection. (Hear, hear.) This bill was the first endeavour to establish such a good understanding, and if the attempt proved successful they would induce a great number of merchant seamen, during their period of 28 day's training . , to see ships of war for themselves ; they would find that the men were idndly treated, that they re ceived good food and good pay, and the result would pro bably be that many of them would be induced to join her Majesty's service. If this result could be attained, instead of endeavouring to retain men in the Royal navy by mea • sures of harshness and ses erity, the greatest punish ment that could be held out in terrorem would be dis missal from the service. (Hear, hear.) If the house assented to this bill he believed such regulations might be framed as would induce merchant sea men to come forward and to form an invaluable reserve for the royal navy. In the February number of the Revue des Deux liondes there was a passage in an article attributed to a distinguished naval officer, the Prince de Joinville, to which he might call the attention of the house. The writer said :—" On a vu quelquefois le genie d'un homme impro viser tine armee , jamais une marine." That statement was true. A navy could not be extemporised. (Hear.) It was ne cessary to have trained seamen, and the state of naval pre paration maintained by the French nation enabled them to afford to disarm at once, because they knew perfectly well that within a week their fleet could be manned. He believed that the declared intention of the Emperor of the French to disarm was faithful and honest, but the French, after dis arming, could arm again in a week with the utmost facility. He thought, therefore, that this great maritime country ought to be in a position to disarm; but if they allowed their seamen to leave the naval service, as was the case at present, they had no reserves. If, however, they had a valu able reserve of seamen, they could afford to imitate the ex ample of other nations ; and he hoped that if the house as sented to this bill they would be placed in that position. Mr. LINDSAY said the problem the Royal Commission on the navy were required to solve was, to obtain a reserve at the smallest cost to the country, and with the least dis - turbance to its industrial resources. He had the misfortune to differ with his colleagues on the commission, and he thought they had not solved that problem. According to the estimate of the commissioners, the cost of the plan they recommended would be £598,3111, but he believed that large as that amount was, it would not suffice to carry out their recommendations. The cost of a coastguard force of 2,000 men was £116,000 a year, while the estimate for 4,000 men as a reserve for the home force was only £132,000 ; but he thought it would be nearer the mark if it were calculated at Z 200,000. In 18,52 a committee of naval officers inquired into the best mode of manning the navy, and they recommended increased pay in one shape or other, which entailed upon the con trary an expenditure of £150,000; yet in 18,54, two years afterwards, the hon. and gallant member for Southwark (Sir C. Napier) found great difficulty in manning theßaltic fleet. It appeared, therefore, that this extra expenditure did not enable the country to obtain what it required. He found that the Admiralty were now paying about £lOO,OOO a year to seamen in the navy for provisions which were not consumed • but why was not care taken that provisions of inferior qu ality were not supplied to the men ?He believed that the extra drill enforced in some of her Majesty's ships, and the provisions of the Articles of War, which imposed the penalty of death for nearly every offence enumerated in them, tended to deter merchant seamen from entering the Royal navy. It was now proposed to form a reserve of seamen to be available in case of emergency, but at this moment they had in the Royal navy a staff of effective offi cers barely sufficient for a peace establishment. He would recommend, therefore, that when they were inviting sea men of the merchant service to join their reserve force they should extend the same invitation to the officers of that ser vice. (Hear.) Some slight distinguishing mark—some badge to show that they Were officers of the reserve—which would give them a better position in society, especially abroad, would have a far greater effect than any pecuniary inducement in leading a number of the finest young seamen to be found in this country to enter the navy in that capa city. Independently of the services which these young men would be able to render as seamen, he believed they would be found most valuable as recruiting officers for the navy among the body of seamen with whom they were connected. (Hear.) He would recommend, therefore, that this bill should not be now pressed, but that the whole subject should be reconsidered by the Admiralty; and that before an attempt was made to form a reserve force of seamen the Articles of War should be altered, excessive and unnecessary drill should be abolishod, flogging should either be altogether abandoned, or such a punish ment should only be inflicted by sentence of court martial, and along with the reserve of merchant seamen the officers of the merchant service should also be invited to enter that force. Sir C. NAPIER gave the Admiralty credit for being now sincere in - their desire to adopt necessary steps with reference to the Royal Navy, and they were going to work in earnest. He considered that corporal punishment should still be retained in the service, and he believed that nine out of ten of those acquainted with the subject would say, that without such punishment it would be impossible to maintain discipline. He consi dered, however, that there might be some alterations in troduced which would be of great benefit, and which would render the condition of the men in the Royal Navy more comfortable, and the service more attractive. He ob jected to the clause in the bill by which it was provided that at the expiration of ten years the reserve volunteer corps should receive a pension even in time of peace, be cause it was not equitable to place this force on the same footing as those engaged during war. Sir F, BARING said the great difficulty was that in a case of emergency and war they had to go into a limited market for seamen. Without taking proper measures they never would be able to find men enough m a case of emer gency. He was glad to find the system of impressment be coming more unpopular amungt naval officers than was formerly the case. There might be extraordinary cases in which all the laws of political economy, as well as of politi • cat justice, might be suspended, but as an ordinary means of filling the navy the system of impresement was abandoned, So far from being a good mode of getting men, it rather ternded to drive them away to foreign countries, and to nar row the market. Without concurring in the adage that the hest way to preserve peace was to b e p re p are d f or war , h e h a d no doubt whatever that the best mode of preserving peace Walt Basil° have a good naval reserve. (Hea r , hear.) He could them that if persons who had filled the situation he once held were sure that the country had a good naval re serve it w ou ld enable firs t lords of the Admiralty to sleep leepinpeace, which was not al ways the case. It was impossible to say whether the reserve would be ready when a war broke out. That could only be determined by the breaking out of war itself. However, he thought tt the experiment would be tha su ccessful. He rejoiced he scheme was not coupled with that of the naval schools. It w as p rop osed to increase the Now co p e st guards and the marines.he suggested that they should have as many coa s t guards a s thea protection of the Cu Atoms required , but let them not fan cy they had a good na val force because they had an increase of coast guards. In the same rumm o er he should say th a t t h ey ought not t poach on the ann yfor the purpose of increasing their marines. With reard difficulty. to th e peace establishment there was n ar : g Tboa difficulty was w hen a case of emer gency arose. It was supposed th a t the system of conti n uance service would enab le them to man the ships m • ore readily than heret o f ore. But he found that the late A dmiralty Board had recourse to a high boienty in not sow that the time of peace. Th at did h con tinuance serv i ce s y s tem had been very successful. H e was spaLeking of manning , there the ships in time of fleece • for was no di ffi culty in manning a ship when in c ommission. H - did the continuance service act with regard to the men ? Ti tel I Lon. gentleman opposi te . and the hon. an gallant gentle = in spoke in favour of ly contact. But the bringing the merchant service and na val service into closer and more friend eff act of the continuance service was to keep me the two servkces ire distinct than before. (Hear.) The return of able sea me to showed that there were more ordinary seamen_thhanriac,ble sea men amongst the continuance service men. rk hoi t . gentleman,quoted Sir R. Bromley to show that more clnt inuance service men deserted than others. How did the cyst` en work in time of war ? Did they want the rieetior peas 3 or war ? That seemed a simple question, but a great deal, lay under it. Under the old systole) the men had a turn in na val service and in the merchant service. But under the prese at system the result was, that the naval service was very much confined to continuance service men, whilst in the an erchant service there would be no men who had been in the , naval se - ..vice. The French system had been much pra i s o k 1 , but others did not draw the same conclusion as he aid '.ira,m it. The French system drew all the sailors of the Fr cinch marine into the fleet for three years, after which the tr were sent back. But that was the very opposite of the ) continuance service system. (Hear, hear.) Prussia ac t aid in the same manner with regard to the training of her so] ;fliers. He thought they ought to act in the same way la; th regard to their navy. (Hear, hear.) But the continu an es system was the very opposite. (Hear.) He thought it right to throw out these observations for the consideration of the house. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. ELPHIN STONE was glad to see a bill introduced at last on the subject, and if it was not in its present shape all that they might desire, he hoped it would tie made so. He thought it a good system to send the marines'to garrison the naval ports. With regard to the continuance system, it was his opinion that it had never been properly tried. No man ought to be made a continuance service man who was not an able seaman. Impressment, he believed, was gone for ever, and that would remove a cloud which hung heretofore over the - sailor's mind. If the Admiralty followed the recom mendation of the royal commission they would remove most of the objections which sailors felt on entering the navy. The hon. gentleman, in reference to punishment in the navy, stated that in the East India Company's fleet, on board which he served from 1819 to 1835, discipline had been effectively maintained by the adoption of a system which was at once firm but just. (Hear, hear.) Mr. CARDWELL said that the system of continuance had not yet had a fair trial. The object of that system was to keep men who had acquired a knowledge of naval gun nery on board the fleet. When they had it in evidence that 60,000 British seamen were engaged on board Ameri can vessels precaution should be taken, if possible, to pre serve these men for thei r own fleet. The co ntinuance system was recommended by men of the highest authority in 1852. In 1853 it was first carried into effect ; and the manning commission stated that so far as it had been carried out it was successful. The most successful part of that system was the training of boys for the navy in the training ships. The boys of the merchant service and the Queen's service were trained in the same ship, which promoted a good feeling between both. With regard to the coast-guard service, they found that it was inade quate even for revenue purposes. But the 12,000 men of which that service consisted was important in other re spects, and was valuable as a force which would not only enable them to commence a war, but to continue a war when commenced. If the system proposed was carried into effect they would have a reserve, first of the coast-guard service, then of 30,000 men from the merchant service, and that at so small an expense that it was not worth being taken into consideration in comparison of the results to be obtained. (Hear.) Let them begin with boys, accustom them early to pay and pension, let them abolish the system of impress ment, and he believed that in a short period, and at a com paratively small expense, the whole naval population of the country would take a pleasure in the navy, and be practised in the system of naval gunnery. He believed they would have a naval force which would make them completely safe and secure. (Hear, hear.) The house then went into committee, and the first three clauses were agreed to. CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATON) BILL. The Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund, and the surplus of ways and means, to the service of the year 1859, and to appro priate the supplies granted in this session of Parliament, was read a first time. WAYS AND MEANS. The house then went into a committee of ways and means. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in the absence of Mr. LainF, moved the following resolution : "That, towards raising the supply granted to her Majesty, in lieu of the stamp duties contained in the schedule to the act passed in the 55th year of the reign of King George the Third, chapter 184, and now payable upon probates of wills and letters of administration in England and Ireland, and upon inventories to be exhibited and recorded in any com missary Court in Scotland, where the estate and effects for or in respect of which such probate or letters of admi nistration shall be granted, or whereof such inventory shall be exhibited or recorded, shall be of the value of one mil lion pounds or upwards, there shall be charged and paid the following duties respectively (that is to say) :—For every £lOO,OOO of the whole value of such estate and effects, and any fractional part of £lOO,OOO, where the deceased shall have left any will or testament, or testamentary dis position, of his personal or moveable estate and effects, the stamp duty of £1,500; and where the deceased shall not have left any such will or testament, or testamentary dis position, the stamp duty of £2,250. The following bills were severally read a third time and passed :—Probates and Letters of Administration (Ireland) Bill ; Police (Counties and Boroughs) Law Amendment Bill ; Turnpike Trust Arrangements Bill , Chief Superin tendent (China) Bill ; and Speaker of the Legislative Council (Canada) Bill. The Poor Law Boards (Payment of Debts) Bill pas s ed through committee pro forma. The house suspended its sitting until six o'clock, The house resumed at six o'clock. BODMIN ELECTION COMPROMISE. The CLERK having read the order of the day for the ad journed debate, and the order for Dr. Michell's attendance in his place, Sir G. GREY said that the hon. member for Bodmin could not be supposed to have any knowledge of what had taken place the day before. It was not proper for any member to derive his knowledge of what took place in the house from the public prints, and the object of desiring the hon. member's attendance was to enable him to hear the charge, and he would therefore suggest that the hon. and learned member for Sheffield should repeat his statement. Mr. ROEBUCK was quite prepared to do so. He had stated that a petition had been presented against the return of the hon. member for Bodmin, that the petition charged him with corrupt practices; he had said also that the petition was withdrawn, and had been withdrawn in consideration that the hon. gentleman would at the end of the session apply for the Chiltern Hundreds, and retire from the house. Dr. MICHELL said he held in his hand an order direct ing him to attend at five, and he was in his place in obe dience to it. He had to apologise to the hon. and learned member for Sheffield for not b having attended to the note which he had received from him : I intend at six this evening to bring under the notice of the house.report which has reached me, that you have entered into an en gagement to retire from the house at the end of the session, in consideration that the petition presented against your return should be withdrawn. I should not like to make the statement, you being absent. I hope, therefore, it may be possible for you to be present.—l am, &c., J. A. ROE BUCK." He was in the library when the statement was made, and knew nothing of the matter until he returned home at ten minutes to seven, when he found the letter, and it was then too late, as the hour named was six o'clock. If the honourable and learned member for Sheffield had come to him and asked for an explanation of the whole thing, he would have had no occasion to trouble the house or to have got him into that difficulty. His explanation would have been that he acted perfectly right in justice to himself and to others. He was not a person of sufficiently affluent means to resist a petition in that house. (Hear, hear.) If there was any fault, it was in the rules of the house, which rendered it impossible for any man of small means to retain a seat in the house if any person chose to present a petition against him. (Hear.) He had means sufficient to keep him in re spectability, but he could not afford to spend £3,000 or £4,000 in bringing witnesses up some 300 miles. Under such circumstances if he had allowed the petition to go on, and had defended himself against the charges made against him, he would have placed himself in difficulties for the whole of his future life. (Hear, hear.) If he had had a large fortune he would have fought it, or if the house would bear him out in the expense he would not strike—(hear, hear)—but he was not going to ruin himself and those dependent on him. He appreciated the honour of a seat in the house, but not to the ruin of himself and those who depended on him. On that ground, and on that ground alone, he had assented to the arrangement. He had at first thought the petition was a joke ; like all the rest, it charged bribery, corruption, and everything. On the prin ciple of the old lawyer, by charging everything it was sure to catch you in something. (Laughter.) The petition was so general, he thought there was nothing at all in it ; but when he found theywere determined to persevere he told Mr. Wyld that he did not intend, and he never had intended to defend his seat. The house would bear in mind that since the petition was presented he had not taken part in a single division. (Hear, hear.) He admitted he fully intended to resign his seat after he found it was intended to follow up the petition, but he would solemnly assert there was no sort of corrupt compromise. The only compromise was this—his object was that the petitioners should come forward and by withdrawing the petition withdraw all charges against him : but if he had allowed the petition to go to a committee and declined to defend his seat, it would be said he did not defend it because he was afraid to do so, and he would be obliged to submit to the imputation that all the charges were true. He thought it was a better plan—not knowing that he was offending against any rule of the house—that they should exonerate him from all charges, and that he should resign his seat. Under these circumstances he left it to the house to judge of the principle on which he acted. (Hear, hear.) He left it in their hands. (Hear, hear.) He could not afford to fight the petition, but if any one would back him in the expense, he would fight it to the last. (" Hear, hear," and cheers.) No other hon. member having risen to address the house, The SPEAKER put the question on Mr. Roebuck's re solutidn. After a division had been called for, , Lord JOHN MANNERS rose, but was called to order. The house divided— For the motion 3O Against The following members voted in the minority:— Burrell, Sir C., Bt. Ingestre, Viscount Tollemache, J. H. Dickson, Col. McEvoy, E. Torrens, R. Disraeli, Benjamin Mowbray, Rt. Hn. J. Vance, John Elmley, Viscount Noble, J. Vansittart, Wm. Elphinstone, Sir J. Northcote, Sir S. H. Whiteside, Rt Hn J. Gard, R. S. Pakenham, Col. Whitmore, H. Garnett, W. J. Paull, H. Williams, T. P. Hadfield, Geo. Sclater-Booth, G. Williams, W. Hennessy, J. P. Seymour, Dlgby TELLERS. Hopwood, J. T. Smith, A. Roebuck, J. A. Hume, W. Tite, Wm. Griffith, C. D. INDUSTRIAL MUSEUM (SCOTLAND.) On the bringing up of the report, Mr. BLACK called the attention of the Government to the injury sustained by the Industrial Museum of Scotland through a misunderstanding between the Board of Education and the Board of Works, and moved that the Treasury be re • quested to interfere between the contending parties, that proper buildings might at length be erected on the site se cured 10 years ago. A large sum, nearly £IO,OOO, had been granted, and not a stone laid of this building. It was only through the quiescence of the Scotch temper that this matter had not long ere this been complained of. Mr. FITZROY was happy to inform the hon. gentleman that plans were immediately to be prepared. and that as soon as these plans were completed the building would be proceeded with. The motion was withdrawn. THE SHIPPING INTEREST. Mr. LINDSAY rose to call the attention of the house to the present state of the shipping interest, and to inquire of the Preside n t o f th e B oar d of Trade if the Government (in conformity with the recommendations of select committees) Intended to adopt any measures to relieve shipowners from the payment of light dues, passing tolls, and local charges, and to remove the bu r d ens an d restr i ctions which st i ll fettere d maritime enterprise. He said that as to some of the matters on which h e h a d i ntended to trouble the house, he should not now move d f o or so a , e b o u n t i m w until r a t i t t ee o t the next st u ss t i oonn, the w h e n subject he should of th e light dues th ere was no inquiry.need for further inquiry, and ho would therefore submit the matter to the attention of hon. members. A committee of that house had reported on the hsuebadjecotiatnhdeiGn Government v o l o ry nt co h n ad i nmititoeveed a the noble lo r d a t the e intersoluthiointihnagt. s the tolls for passing lights ought not to fall on a interest ought committee not to e be _ the e shipping. a gain, on the subject of pas s i ng tolls, t had reported that the shipping charged, because it wa s a tax from which shipowners c o ve d no advantage. Again, on the subject of local charges, a co mmittee had reported. The subject had been fully in vestigated, and the Government ought now t o state what t o w d e i r s e po th sa e l inters_ they intended to adopt, and whether they were pre pared to follow out the recommendations of select core_ mittees. tions of the Government the Mr. CRAWFORD i ti ed th th re ka ga a ro W w to ha th mnu l o :t a ed m u o l a de t : d th to. el 4 „ , oo, lerch ‘,fl aiLt Shippi ng zocer,ove an ac cu _ fAunctd, IwBhis4c.hThhiads accu mulated to the 1 attention of the act. He also wished to cal roulationwhich could not have been foreseen . by the framers expendi ture of money on life boats. lie thought that, seeing the large ftmd which had accumulated, that a larger sum should be expended for life boats. Mr. D. SEYMOUR concurred with Mr. Lindsay in think ing that the charges to which reference was made ought to be taken off the shipping interest. The house would be sur prised to hear that since the repeal of the navigation laws, foreign shipping trading to English ports had increased in a quadruple ratio, whilst British shipping had comparatively decreased. He did not call upon the house to alter the law, but to give to our shipping the advantages of that free trade from the result of which they were at present suffering. There were in the Chinese waters in February last a fleet of 230 vessels, of which 100 were owned in. England, but a much smaller number sailed under the British flag; The shipping of the United States were much more favourably , circumstanced than ours in the definition of a coasting trade. They could perform a voyage of ten thousand miles, and still this was called a coasting trade, and British vessels were excluded from it. He asked, was such a state of things to be tolerated, orwere Americans to retain those advantages over the British shipowners ? He contended that our Go vernment ought to call upon foreign Governments to reci procate, and then, if they neglected to do so, they would be most shamefully deficient in their, duty to the shipowners of England. Mr. M. GIBSON would not detain the house by replying at length to the statements of the hon. member. He would only say that Government would as far as possible promote a feeling of reciprocity in the Governments of foreign coun tries. Not that be wished to accept the doctrine that our movements were to be regulated by those of foreign Govern ments, but merely to state that no opportunity should be lost for procuring the relaxation of unequal restrictions. With these few observations, he would now turn to what had been said by the hon. members for Sunderland and London. With regard to the select committee to which the hon. member for Sunderland had referred, and which had been appointed, but had not sat in consequenceof the dissolution of Parliament, he had no doubt but that if the hon. member thought pro per to move for it again, he would not find any resistance on the part of the Government, who would leave its appoint ment entirely in the hands of the house. There were three questions respecting which the hon. member asked whether any bills were to be introduced by the Government. Of these light dues stood upon a different footing from passing tolls and local charges. Whatever else might be said against light dues it could not be denied that the money raised was ap plied to the benefit of shipping by the establishment of lights. Formerly the dues were applied in payment of the debts and pensions of the Trinity-house, but at this moment they were applied exclusively to the erection and maintenance of lighthouses, which mainly benefited the shipping of the country. As to the principle of making them a charge upon the consolidated fund, it was rather a Treasury than a Board of Trade question, and he hardly thought the hon. member would succeed in persuading the Chancellor of the Exche quer to accept a charge of £300,000 a year. He was aware that a committee had recommended such an arrangement ; but he did not think that either the Government or the house would ever consent to it. These dueshad been reduced 50 per cent. during the last six years, and all that had been received had been expended in the erection of new lighthouses and in other arrangements entirely for the benefit of the shipping interest. With respect to passing tolls and local charges, he supposed that what the hon. member meant was, that nothing on account of these charges should be levied on ships except for shipping purposes. (Hear, hear, from Mr. :Lindsay. No doubt that seemed fair ; but there was great difficulty in dealing with these local dues. For him self, he did not think they should be dealt with in a gene ral bill in an arbitrary manner, and for this reason, that in various places they had been made subject to so many debts and engagements that it would be difficult to deal with them in a general measure without inflicting local injustice. Then a private bill would be a most objectionable course, because it would be submitting a great public question to the contention of counsel in a committee-room. There being thus difficulties in the way of a public and also of a private bill, there was in his opinion one other course, and that was to bring in a measure of aflexible character, which should be capable of applying to particular cases, which, while recognising the right of shipping to pay shipping dues, should still respect the claims of creditors. Such a measure would settle the question and should pass the house, and it was a measure which Government was ready to consider, and would most probably introduce in the ensuing session. As to the surplus of the mercantile marine fund, to which the hon. member for London had called attention he (Mr. Gibson) found that the annual income, after recent reduc tions which were now taking effect, and which had perhaps escaped the hon. member, was £330,000. Of this sum there was required for lighthouses, £230,000; ballasting, £40,000; shipping offices, £40,000 ; lifeboats, rockets, &c., £3,200 ; leaving a surplus of little more than £lO,OOO. The ex penses of lighthouses last year reached £235,000, and. £lO,OOO was not a very large surplus in such large trans actions. If, however, the produce of the fund should increase, the shipping would derive the benefit from it, as they had from the reductions which had been al ready made. The present balance would be applied in the erection of new lighthouses, of which 17 or 19 were now in. course of construction, and he found that for new works there was wanting £250,000, with £26,000 due to Scotland and Ireland. There was not, therelore, at present any opening for the reduction of the mercantile marine fund; but if one should arise, it would at once be taken advantage of. He need hardly repeat, that in none of the three cases was there any chance of transfer to the consolidated fund. RIGHTS OF THE CROWN TO FORESHORES, &c. Mr. A. SMITH resumed his observations on the subject of foreshores which had been interrupted by the count out of Tuesday evening. The hon. member complained of the conduct of the Government in taking possession of the various foreshores of the United Kingdom and disposing of them in violation of local and individual interests. They had, he said, sold and leased those lands which bordered on the sea in increased quantities every year, the total sums they received for them having amounted to £140,000. To such an extent had this encroachment of the crown now reached that in a case at Dover a man had been refused permission to protect his property against the encroach ments of the sea unless he admitted the crown's right, and took a lease from the Woods and Forests. He wished to know under what power or right these sales or leases of the land between the high and low water mark were made ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed that the sum of the charge brought against the Commissioners of .Woods and Forests by the hon. gentleman was that they had been anxious to do their duty to the public. If the hon. gen tleman had complained of any irregularity or any neglect in protecting the land from the inroads of the sea, when the commissioners had the control of the foreshores, it would have been attended to, as had been done recently in Sussex, where a complaint was made of damage to the land, and relief was immediately afforded without one farthing of cost to the proprietors of the adjacent property. By the law of the country the uroperty in the whole of the foreshores on the sea coast, and all navigable rivers and all estuaries, was vested in the crown, and necessarily so. It was vested in the crown in a double sense—first, in the right of property; and secondly, in the right of jurisdiction. But the crown could appropriate no portion of the property to the detriment of the public. In all cases the rights of the public to land and embark—to fish and to use the shore for all ordi nary purposes, must be preserved, and the crown could not appropriate or transfer any portion of the property unless it could be done without prejudice to the public interest. Un fortunately in ancient times grants had been made of pro perty of this kind, and adjoining proprietors under such grants had assumed rights over the shore which were directly opposed to the interests of the public, and when few the purposes of any important and necessary public work the shore was required large sums were claimed in the shape of compensation. He quite concurred with the hon. gen tleman in the impropriety of placing such property in pri vate hands. In some instances leases had been granted, and thousands of pounds were demanded by the grantees when any change required the resumption of the grant, and in other cases heavy tolls were levied upon any article landed, or even pieces of wreck picked up. In one instance referred to by the hon and learned gentleman, the person who claimed the right to the foreshore demanded Gd. or ls. when a bit of wreck was found from the person who picked it up. For landing a topgallant yard 4d. was charged as toll for the use of the pier and foreshore. Mr. A. SMITH—That was for the use of the pier, which was private property. The ATTORNEY • GENERAL—But the pier, though private property, was erected upon the foreshore, which was public property, but granted to private parties, and the de mand was made for the use of the shore as well as the pier. For landing the stock of an anchor 2s. was charged, and for a piece of timber of certain dimensions 7s. was levied in the way of toll. He mentioned this to show how much grants of this kind were to be deprecated, and how they were often made a pretext for petty exactions. The Commissioners of Woods and Forests were trustees for the pubiic, and were bound to protect the public interest. As evidencing how they had performed that duty, he referred to the returns of the number of suits instituted by the Woods and Forests, and the results. From 1830 to July, 1859, the total num ber of suits which had been commenced was 29, including those directed to be brought in the county courts. Of these 22 had resulted in favour of the Crown, 3 were still pend ing, 2 had been discontinued, and 2 had resulted in adverse decisions. The amount recovered to the country under these suits was £185,000, at a cost of £15,000. The only question was, were they prepared to take the property of those foreshores out of the hands of the Crown, which exer cised it for the public benefit, preserving the navigation of all navigable rivers, and protecting all public rights ; or were they prepared to hand it over to the owners of adjoin ing lands, who, as he had shown, would exercise it for their own private advantage and to the prejudice of the public? He contended that the property could not be dealt with more providently than it was dealt with by the Commis sioners of Woods and Forests : the public interests could not be better protected, nor could a better security be found for the exercise of the right for the public benefit. Mr. DUNLOP expressed his satisfaction at the state ment of the hon. gentleman. • • THE NATIONAL DEFENCES-,OUR TROOPS AT HOMY. Sir DE L. EVANS said that the.purport of the motion which stood in his name was—" That, under the present circumstances, it is not necessary or expedient to carry into effect the recent order for despatching 6,700 men to India, from the depots of regiments serving in India." The late Government gave orders for the despatch of a considerable force of artillery to India six or eight months ago. The matter was brought before the house, and the Government judiciously altered their determination, and did not send the artillery out. The circumstances of the present case were essentially the same-6,000 or 7,000 men were about - to be sent out, and he hoped the Secretary for India would find on consideration that they should not be sent out. It was said by the Secretary for India that this was the usual season for sending out recruits to India. That might be but circumstances were not such that such a force should be sent out of the country. Both on financial and general grounds such a step would be unwise. The right hon. gentleman, a night or two ago, said that the finances of India were in an alarming state. The despatch of troops would cost £300,000 at least, and it was neces sary to put this burden on the Indian Government. The transmission of each soldier to India cost £l5, and you had to add to that the same amount' for each man coming home, the plan being for the two forces to cross each other on the sea, which was somewhat inconvenient. In a more important point of view than the financial one he thought he made no undue assertion when he said that the force in this country was small and inadequate, and that the sending away of these 7,000 men would cause a serious diminution of that force. The Indian army was immense, far beyond the requirements of that country. The recent despatches from India stated that everything was going on satisfactorily. Oude was tranquil, a thousand forts had been taken from the talookdars, and thousands of arms taken awap from the natives, and yet you were sending out European troops, while at the same time the Government of India pro posed to reduce the native army by one-fourth. If all this was the case, it was not necessary to send reinforcements ouf from this country. He might be told that he exaggerated the requirements of this country for troops. He did not think SO. It was true that the French army was to be reduced, and it was satisfactory to learn that such an order had been issued by the French Government; but it was a delusion to suppose that such a disarmament afforded any analogy to the English army, for the disarmament of the French was only a furlough to the men, who were liable to return within a mouth, while the officers and non-commissioned cancers remained on the establishment whether in peace or War. It was said that the French disarmament extended ME SUN; LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, AUGUST 7,6 ? ?, 1859. to sailors, but there was a curious circumstance, which de served notice. Hitherto the furlough of sailors allowed them to return to their ships at a month's notico ; but now they were required to do so at five day's notice. This looked as if the French Government wished more than usual to be pre pared to replace their fleet in an effective state. But how ever that might be, the question was that if our force was inadequate it must be increased. There were now 100,000 European soldiers in India. and this bore on the subject of the finances of the Indian Government. He had seen a statement in the Bengal journals that "it was not bayonets or artillery that was wanted, but' a good system of go vernment. ' He wished to impress on the house that it was objectionable to send these troops out of this country. It was said that the recent disturbance in the local force in India was an additional reason for sending out more troops from England. The authorities here and in India had mis managed this matter of the local troops. Forty men of this force were to be brought to courts-martial, and 6,000 or 7,000 of this force were to be discharged. You had a large force in India, double the number that put down the mutiny, and when you found that the Indian government was re ducing their local force it showed that any additional troops were unnecessary. Colonel P. HERBERT, who had a notice of motion on the paper, " That in the opinion of the house the military force at present available for service within the United Kingdom is inadequate to existing requirements," said, that as, by the forms of the house, he could not make his motion; he would take advantage of that of his honourable and gallant friend to make the statement he desired to make. He would not enter into the question of what ought to be the number of troops for the defence of this country, but he wished to confine himself to the fact of the number of troops which were actually possessed for service in this country. He had before him a document, the accuracy of which would not be disputed by the Secretary for War, and he had extracted from it the figures he wished to bring before the house. He would refer to the number of troops in the United Kingdom on the Ist of June in this year. The total number on that day, including militia, was 110,000. He wished to enter into an examination of the actual value of that number of men. Excluding the embodied militia the number was reduced to 86,000 ; of these 10,000 were officers, sergeants, and drummers, and that reduced the rank and file to 76,000. When a force was of in ferior quality you required a larger number of men. Of the 76,000 men nearly one half were under one year's service, and the number under 20 years of age was 28,000. Of the whole number 11,000 were recruits—and you must take the sick at 5,000, absentees at 4,500, making a total of 20,500, leaving fit for duty 55,000, so that you had come down to one half of the original number. Of these the cavalry were 7,600, the artillery 9,000, the engineers and Military Train, 3,000, making 19,600, so that the infantry were reduced to 34,500. Of this number 15,000 belonged to depots principally of the regiments in India. The depots were composed of 24,000 men altogether, and of these 10,000 were under 20 years of age, and 15,000 were under one year's service. This showed what would be the value of these depot troops, and except for the purpose of defending fortified places it would be extremely small. Of the seven battalions of the Guards and the 21 regiments of the line excluding the sick and absentees, the grand total of rank and file was 21,000, to which were to be added officers, ser geants, and drummers, 3,000. The embodied militia amounted to 23,000, and if the deductions in the regular forces were great, it must also be large from this 23;000 men. Many of the militia regiments were extremely fine -battalions, but many of them were not in the highest state of efficiency. If you allowed the defence of Portsmouth, Pembroke, and Plymouth to be committed to the militia and the depot battalions, and took the whole of the regi ments of the line in Great Britain available for service in the field, the force of infantry would be 21,000 men, and if you added to these 12,000 or 14,000 militia, you would only get 35,000 men. He should no doubt be told that all armies were subject to the deductions which he had pointed out, but in this case they were out of all proportion to the nominal strength of our army. Another point which would probably be urged. Against them was, that if these state ments were true, it was indiscreet to make them. But he differed on that point. These things were well known to everybody but ourselves. (Hear.) Any one who was in the habit of looking into the state of our army might easily come to the same results as he had. Military officers of foreign nations were as able to make these calculations as he was. Every week the stations of our army were pub lished in some of the journals, and for ls. 6d. any one could get the Army Estimates, and by these means any soldier could make the calculation for himself. The remedy was in the hands of the Government, and if they could get over the financial difficulty—that of getting the money—the expense of putting the matter on a proper footing would be small. Our regimental establishment was large, and 30,000 men could be added to our infantry without the addition of a single officer. (Hear.) More militia regiments ought to be embodied. In any reply to his figures he should like the house to Lear in mind that the repetition of the gross totals could not be considered as a refutation of his argu ment. His figures were correct, and if they showed that our infantry was only 21,000, and that you had only 14,000 out of the 23,000 militia to add to them for the pur pose of meetingan enemy in the field, he hoped the house would feel that the military force at present available for service within the United Kingdom was inadequate to exist ing circumstances, Sir A. AGNEW said that with reference to the motion df the hon. and gallant member for Westminster, he would say that we had now in India a force most adapted for the defence of this country, and instead of not sending out these 6,000 men to India it would be better to 'let them go, and bring horne some of the fine seasoned men, with all the ex perience of the Crimea and the late war in India upon them. It was a shame that such troops should be allowed to die away from the effects of climate in India. It was best to send out the newly raised men, and bring the seasoned troops home, who would be more available for our defence than militia or newly raised corps. Col. NORTH hoped the Government would send out this force. Many regiments in India would be rendered ineffi cient if the usual reliefs did not go out, and it would be like a sentence of perpetual banishment if regiments were not brought home. He was afraid that the services of more than 8,700 would be required in India, according to the reports which had just reached this country. Something had been said about increasing the local European force in India; but, after one regiment of this force had set the example of in trenching itself in barracks and electing its own officers, he thought the sooner our own soldiers went out there the better. A man who got a European regiment to mutiny must be very clever i ndeed ; but, from inquiries he had made, he believed that the ranks of Indian regiments were filled with broken-down lawyers and men of that descrip tion. (Laughter.) He meant no disrespect to the learned profession, but troublesome soldiers were always called the lawyers of the regiment. The men had a grievance, but if they had been told that the case had been settled against them, not by the Attorney or Solicitor •General, but by the Adjutant- G e a rie Q ra u l, ee t n h , s e y r e N g v n u l l e d n h t a t h v i e ngs m a w n i o f u e l s d t ed be a e x d p i l ff a e i r n e e n d t f to ee t l h in e g. me l n n on their private parades ; or an old soldier would go to his captain, and on returning would tell the men, " I don't know what he said, but it's all right." (A laugh.) If this had been done here there would have been no rumpus w;iatever. With regard to the avail able force in this country he thought that his gallant friend took too gloomy a view. An infantry soldier of a year's standing, so far as fighting was concerned, was an efficient soldier ; Waterloo was won by men who had not been more than two or three years in the service. As to the calculations which had been made, he did not see why the sergeants, who were armed like the rest of the men, should be deducted frorntheavailable force; and the Military Train Corps, though non-combatant, formed an integral part of our force, and ought to be reckoned with it. Then, again, five per cent. was the usual allowance made for the sick ; and altogether he thought the deductions made were far too many. With regard to the militia, he was at Aldershot last Saturday, and, as far as the movements of the men went, he defied any one to distinguish militia from line regiments. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible to see finer troops, and he hoped Government would continue to maintain the regi ments which were now out. It was not drill or numbers which made a regiment, but the soldierlike feeling and dis cipline which animated the men. Five hundred men well disciplined were more valuable than 1,000 others. He was glad, therefore, to hear the notice of the Secretary for War that evening for the formation of a reserve corps from men who had been 10 years in the service. They would prove a great additional securityto thecountry if they could be got to join this corps He agreed that no sufficient in ducement was proposed ; but as a soldier who entered the army at 18 would leave it in the prime of life, 20,000 such men would be of the highest value in protecting our shores. (Hear.) Sir E. COLEBROOKE said he shared in the opinion of the hon. and gallant member for Westminster that, looking to the state of India, and the large European force there, he could not see why such a large number of additional men should be sent out. But he rose to point out to the house that the force which the hon. and gallant member wished to ,retain in this country did not belong to the British Govern ment, but to the Government of India. It was natural that the hon. and gallant gentleman should wish to have as many troops as might be necessary for the defence of the country, but he hoped they would go further with him, and insist that the whole of that force' should be charged on the revenue of this country instead of on that of India. The whole question of the relative expense of troops borne by this country and India deserved considerate revision by the Go vernment. He (Sir E. Colebrooke) had given notice of his intention to bring in a bring to extend the power of the In dian Government to increase the local force. Sir C. WOOD thought it unnecessary for the house to wander into a debate upon Indian finance upon the organi sation of the Indian army, or upon the national defences. He agreed with the hon. and gallant member opposite, the Member for Oxfordshire, that if this were a question of re gular organised regiments of this country to act as a militia force in India, it would be objectionable, but that was not what was propm.ed. It was indispensably necessary to send out these drafts in order to keep up the efficiency of the re giments now in India, and that was really all it was now proposed to do. Although it might appear that this was a large number of men to send out at one time, it should be. observed that they would arrive in India at a season of the year when they - were least likely to be affected by the change of climate, instead of being.sent out in driblets all through the year. They would there go to make up those regiments of the line or of the local force which were now in India, and so the efficiency of those regiments, which must be kept in India at all events, must be kept up. With regard to the reduction of the force in India, it was intended to send home ten regiments in the course of this year, but circumstances had 'occurred which interfered with that measure, and the excitement which had arisen amongst the European troops, though it had been a good deal exaggerated, made it advisable, in the opinion of the. Government of India to retain two or three of the regi ments which 'had been ordered home. One regiment of cavalry, however, and seven regiments of infantry, with a battalion of the military train, had already left India, and were - on their return home. Sir DE L. EVANS asked how many men were coming home ? Sir C. WOOD could not exactly say the number of men, because they were allowed to volunteer into other regi ments remaining in India up to the moment of the depar ture of their regiments. The regiments coming home were the 9th Lancers, the 10th Foot, the 28th Foot, the 29th Foot, the 37th Foot, the 84th Foot, the 86th Foot, and the Gth battalion of th_e Military Train. Col. SYKES remarked that every regiment now in India consisted of about 1,100 men, and by not filling uP caneies they might be reduced to 900, which he thought •would, under ordinary circumstances, be quite sufficient. They were more required in England than in India. There _ were now. .110,009. European troops in India; the cost of them was .cnorineus, and it would be pru d en t to reduce them as fast as pe*siblo. (Hear.) The proposal to send out the va- raw recruits, .eucl send home the acclimatised European troops, was. role of the strangest ever made, since new corners in .ludia.died off by dozens in the first two or three years ; the .e4peese of their transport to and fro was also immense, . With regard to the late .outbreak, it had been ..can*Q4 . by an extraordinary blunder or by extraordinary.. want of tact. It was a noble occasion le. ha.vp.*aid to those men, " You are not enti tled to what you Alain) ' but you are gallant fellows—you have won .Delhi Rid Lucknow for us, and. so here it is for you." (Cheers.) That would have been a sure means of attaching thew to our service, but instead of that the nest', niggling, petty consideration of a few thousand pounds had been allowed to produce this unhappy and disreputable affair, the cost of which would be fourfold what it would have been if the money had been generously given. Mr. HORSMAN did not think the question raised by his hon. and gallant friend was so unimportant as the Secretary of State for India seemed to think. He must take this oppor tunity to urge again upon the house the state of insecurity in which this country was placed from the want of an ade quate home force. It had been shown that the troops now in India were not required there, and they were a great burthen on the finances of India, whilst they were wanted to give additional strength to England. Now, the question was, whether we ought to send out more recruits to India, or to bring home regiments from India to England. This must not be treated as a mere departmental question. The points to be considered were, first, what was the probability of our military force being required for a home exigency ; and, secondly, was it sufficient for such an emergency? Now, all those who were most versed in European politics, and best acquainted with the secret springs and motives by which cabinets, and empires, and armies were set in motion, said that the time might not be far distant when we should require a large home force—when English liberty would have to be fought for on English soil ; and the majority of such persons told us that, according to pre sent appearances,' they thought that at no distant day this was inevitable. (Murmurs.) He really knew no person who had attended much to Eoropean politics, and who, be lieved that the peace of Europe could be maintained un broken for many years, or who did not think that, if it were to be broken, it was very probable that England might be brought into the conflict. Our own most expe rienced diplomatists gave us the strongest warnings on the subject, and assured us that if we disregarded those warn ings we should rue the lay. ' Now, supposing such a home exigency to occur, we re our means o f encountering it sufficient ? It was notorious that the strongest representa tions had been made to her Majesty's Ministers on this sub ject by the highest and most competent authorities; and the Government had had as great an amount of concurrent testimony laid officially before them as ever was got toge ther. The house was told the other night of a military committee appointed last year to report confidentially to the Government. It was not for the house to see that confiden tial report, but the Government ought not to lull the coun try into a false security, by holding language at variance with the information they possessed. When he (Mr. Hors man) made a motion on this subject the other night, he was answered by the Secretary for War in a very frank and manly speech, but he regretted afterwards to hear the noble lord at the head of th e Government, who sneered at the rifle fever which his colleague had taken credit for the Go vernment for having encouraged; and the noble lord went so far as to say that even if that unfortunate event of a war should occur, if we had a disaster at sea and the landing of a hostile force in England, the population of the country would of itself be sufficient to annihilate the invaders. He was sorry to hear that statement from the noble lord, be cause it was one which no military man coult think founded in reason. He felt that if only any partial disaster should occur, and even the smallest injury were to be inflicted,' a heavy responsibility would rest upon those charged with the protection of the country. The day would come when every word that had been spoken, every act that had been done, every confidential report submitted to the Govern ment, would all rise in judgment against them. The great 'Napoleon onpe said that an invaded country never wanted men, but that it did want soldiers. This was the reply to those who fancied an unarmed population could be relied upon in a suddenemergency. The hon. and gallant member for Ludlow had shown from official returns that the military force in this country was not only inadequate, but almost no force at all. He (Mr. Horsman) could not contemplate that fact without great disquietude. No one knew how soon the emergency might arrive. If any one in July, 1858, had told the Emperor of Austria that before July, 1859, a war with France would have been begun and ended, he would have bedn taken for a lunatic. Events marched rapidly in these days ; they came quickly, and as quickly passed away. His hon. and gallant friend was therefore quite right in taking the opportunity of the sending out of these 7,000 men to India to call attention to this matter. Instead of sending more out, we wanted all that we had here now, and 20,000 or 30,000 more, if they could be got from India ; and even then we should be under the strength which every man to whom one would refer for information or advice must think requisite. It was the duty of the Government to bring home every single soldier not absolutely required. Mr. S. HERBERT said—Before I address myself to what fell from the hon. and gallant officer opposite, let me make some few remarks on the last sentences of the speech of the right hon. gentlemen who ham just sat down. He gives in his adhesion, after discussion of the motion, to the wish to stop these draughts and reliefs being sent out to India, because of the danger from attack by foreign Powers at home. What would be the result of stopping these draughts ? Do not let the house think that we are sending out trained men with a military organisation. These are draughts of young recruits belonging to regiments in India. We want to get regiments back. We have seven coming; they are afloat, and one has arrived. But we want many more battalions from India. We are now going upon a system which is wrong, but to which our necessities com pel us. In time of profound peace we are bringing our re serves into line and using our embodied militia where we Ought to have regular troops. We want to get rid of this state of things. We necessarily press up on the Indian Government'to send back regiments as soon as circum stances will allow. They are unwilling to do so. Fol lowing the mutiny of the Sepoys, there is the mutiny of the European local troops, and no doubt great alarm in India and great unwillingness to send back bat talions. If you want to confirm the Indian Government in retaining these battalions you cannot take a surer method than by refusing to send the draughts and reliefs which belong to regiments these, because they naturally say, "We want so many thousand men. If you keep the rough draughts and reduce the regiments to skeletons we shall be obliged to keep more battalions to have the same number of men?' The result would be, you would have an army in India with a disproportionate number of officers and an insufficient number of men, and an army ih Eng land with a vast number of men, without a sufficient num ber of officers. You would produce inefficiency both here and there make a great disturb ance , an d d e f ea t th e very object which you have in view—namely, to get battalions home to England. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the speech of the gallant officer opposite, he says, and justly says that in estimating the value of our forces we must take into con sideration that a great many battalions are very young— that there are a vast number of men under 20, and a vast number of men under 25. In making that statement he confirms that which I have stated on a former occasion, because I stated the other night that the improved health of the army could not be entirely depended upon, as the aru 1 , was disproportionately young. But that is a fault which will mend every day. We have newly raised young raw levies ; but even young and raw levies as they are, when they arrived a t Malta, and were seen accidentally by a distinguished and competent judge, he said he could scarcely believe that they, were such young battalions, so efficient did they seem to him. (Hear.) Then comes the question how are you to count armies ? • At one time they were counted by rank and file. Sergeants were not counted, because they did not carry any arms. But now they are armed. They have a better musket than the men carry, and I confess I do not understand why you throw them out of the account. You may or may not count ser geants. But then you must recollect that, comparing man for man and army for army, our own counts by rank and file, while France, Austria, and I believe Russia, all count by line. 1 confess I think the whole 'calculation of the gallant officer rests on very inaccurate conditions. I have stated that I think that hitherto we have been forced into a wrong sys tem. When we get regiments home from India we shall get into a right system. But to say that what you mean by a peace establishment is an army ready at any moment to resist war of which no notice is given, and which may take pl ace any day of the week, is an impossible state of things. Of `course, if you take a peace establishment and compare it with a large war establish men t, th ere mus t b e a grea t dispropor tion. The gallant officer says that the country, under present be circumstances, ought to placed in a state of defence. What are those circumstances ? Ido not think the circum stances now, compared with those of the past, are such as to justify us in making a violent effort greatly to increase our force. A short time ago there was war in Europe ; that was said to be a reason for increasing the army ; but now peace has been made, and we are told we ought to increase it be cause there is peace I (Hear, hear.) Ido not say our means of defence ace not small ; I thi n k we s h ou ld ma k e an e ff or t t o improve them. But again, we are told the time is come when we ought to reduce our army; these arguments, then, are matters of opinion, according to the political position hon. gentlemen take. Id o not say, then, oar defences are what they ought to be, and we shall go on improving them. But do not mislead the public by holding out the notion that this coun try will ever support a vast war army in time of peace. (Hear, hear.) After all, what is our reserve ? Supposing we were under the necessity of arming ourselves, we have a reserve, including the militia, of 65,000 men. This is not a force on paper7but consists of men actually embodie d . It is a force strong enough, we are told by good military authorities, to defend all our chief arsenals. It may be a small and young force, but it is certainly an improving one. (Hear, hear.) Including seven regiments now on their way from India, we shall have 39 battalions. I wish the force t were larger; but the way to make it larger i s certainly not td send dreuehts to India A force of 61,000 men may not ,itse considered a large one, but it is not t o be h f as rit d te e r a e l d t away ,in the manner the hon. gentleman opposite its The hon. member for Stroud r. report on our means (M Horsman) has re ferred to the terms of the confident ial of defence; he says he is not aware tm otfhsits as not but not thinks it must contain some severe ventured to quote its langua ge. I should have thought uoting a confidential report that a suffi c i en t reason for not t is, simply, because it is confidential;,o.eneraciiiy m a a n d d e k w h h e a wa t i . s intended ) to be confidential is no t The hon. gentleman sa ys , we hear of certain represents. tions having been made to th e Government, and since those represen tations there has been some augmentation of our military force. must admit that we seem to be perpetu ally oscillating I bets4en parsimony our nd opposite At to an excess of extravagance; wh en one time we give way t comes and the retiring the opposite wave leaves us at a lower point th an we stood at before we b eg an the spasmodic exerti on . (H ear. ) This uncertainty, this continual up and down, is exceed ingly injurious'to the efficiency of the army. (H ear , h ear. ) I should wish the house to look at this su bj ec t ca l mly and reasonably, and fix as nearly as possible wh a t s h ou ld b e the num number of our military establishment. If, having no offensive i n t e ntions against any count r y; we s t ea dil y main tained a force sufficient for own security, it would be /hitch better than these violent and spasmodic attempts to con vert a small army into a large one, and, after a reaction of fee li ng , disbanding it and reducing it to 40,000 men; though it is a system very difficult to resist in a country gevefried by a popular assembly. I have no objection to discussion on this subject ; the more the public know about it the less they will be affected by unfounded alarms. Colonel DUNNE said there were no less than four bills on the paper that night eating to military matters. He disapproved'eft 'the period of service being limited to ten yeers, and also of the undue increase of the staff. Nothing effectual would be done in the way of defence until a proper system of organisation for the arniy had been determined on. The militia ought to be armed with rifles, but the idea of arming the people generally was futile, for a sufficiency of arias could nut be found. Now that arms of precision had been broils:lit td such perfection, the result would be that those troops who is id the less perfect arms would be cut off; and a further result would be that hostile forces would come to close - encounter sooner. He believed that our army was now much more efficient than it was after the last great European war. Sir F. SMITH recalled the attention of the house to the question before it—whether 6,000 or 7 9 nA -- 0 troops should be sent out to their depots in India. Hedonsidered that this was necessary. In an enumeration of troops the sergeants ought not to be reckoned ; it was their duty to attend on the to the g. troops, and no t t o be under arms. Referrin com mission appointed on the national defences, tae expressed a hope that the object of their inquiry should be defined, or they might recommend the disoontinuance of works now in pr?gress. He approved of the proposal to raise a reserved force, consisting of men who had served ten years. Such a force would be most valuable. After a few words from Colonel GrLprx, Lord PALMERSTON said that the functions and limita tions of the commission on national defences had been very distinctly explained. Their duties would be to examine accurately all plans of works yet to be made, to compare them with the works already made, and to see what was the best mode of adapting that which was to be added to that which existed, in order to render as perfect as possible, with reference to the present system of attack, those works which were essential for the defence of our dockyards and - arsenals. They would not have so much to overhaul what was already done as to see how it could be made most complete. He would hardly have risen, however, to set this point right, but he wished to correct a misconception of his right hon. friend (Mr. Horsman) as to what had fallen from him a few evenings ago as to the means of defence in case of war. His right hon. friend seemed to imagine that the popula tion of the country itself would be able to defend her. (Mr. Horsman—No.) Ho never said anything of the kind. He was observing on the rifle corps, and he said that if occa sion required they would show the same spirit as was evinced by a much smaller population in the war which commenced in 1803, when two or three hundred thousand volunteers were raised and armed, ready to defend their country, and that such a force, in addition to the regulars and militia which they could bring' into the field, would be able to teach an invader a lesson. He had not at all ad verted to that organisation as a single means of defence. It was remarkable how much the discussions on this matter were influenced by momentary considerations, rather than by a permanent settled system. When the Indian mutiny broke out he was urged to send all the line-of-battle ships to India with troops, to take out their guns and use them as transports, but now in discussing the means of defence of the country, tlie greatest stress is laid on having a Chan nel fleet as an adequate means of defence. There was not much consistence in one moment urging a minister to send all the line-of-battle ships to the other side of the globe, and in a short time after, when the defence of the country was in question, requiring to have them in the Channel ready eptipped. That showed how desirable it was, when they turned their mind to the question of national defences, they should be quite divested of all influence of temporary and accidental circumstances, and look at the question calmly with a view to a permanent arrangement. He must confess that although they were capable of improvement (which he trusted they would soon receive), yet when he contemplated that the present arrangements would furnish us with an effective force for defence, it did net seem to him so contemptible as some hon. gentlemen and the public at large seemed to think. He held that in the event of a war they would be able to bring into the field a force little short of 200,000 fighting men : the regular force would amount to about 60,000. The present establishment of the militia was 120,000, and if they were well recruited in the event of any real emergency they might count on a force of 100,000. Then there were 14,000 yeomanry, some 12,000 or 14,000 pensioners, and the force of ten years' service men, which would be formed under a bill to be brought forward that evening. Then the dock yard battalions might be enrolled for the defence of the dock yards. And taking all these together, an enemy would have to count on at least a force of 200,000 men before him. He did not wish to prolong the discussion, but he could assure the hon. and gallant officer that the men going out to India were recruits; this would enable the Government to bring home several regiments, and carry out arrange ments most essential to the defence of the country. Colonel DICKSON admitted that a number of regiments might be brought home, but he wished to draw the atten tion of the house to the fact that they would return mere skeletons, of not more than 250 or 300 men each. (Mr. S. Herbert-LThe depots are so much above the establishment that when the head-quarters come back the regiments will be nearly complete.) He agreed with the noble lord that some persons took too gloomy a view of the state of the army ; but he thought the noble lord was too sanguine. He also agreed that they were too apt to act on momentary impressions. He thought the proposed reserve force was exceedingly ill-advised. It was intended to catch the ten years' service men, but those were the very men they wanted to catch for the militia. He had been very much disappointed in the report of the militia commission ; they seemed to have considered only the position of the adju tants, which was very good already. He was sorry to hear the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for War say that he intended to consider the report, with a view to re-organise the force; the report furnished no materials for its re-or ganisation. Sir De Lacy . Evans's resolution was then negatived without a division, and the report of the Committee of Ways at d Means_was received. EAST INDIA LOAN BILL. This bill was read a second time. RESERVE VOLUNTEER FORCE OF SEAMEN BILL. The house,went into committee on this bill. Clause 4 was agreed. to. On clause 5, Mr. HENLEY said that by this clause volunteers who had entered for five years were liable, " in case her Majesty should see fit, to be called on to serve for three or four years additional." Such a clause as that put the force en tirely at the discretion of the Admiralty, and he would suggest that some proviso should be inserted as to the case of the naval volunteers and militia, making them liable only in case of "imminent internal &wager or war." Sir C. NAPIER agreed with the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman, and Lord C. PAGET proposed to insert the words "of na tional emergency" after the word "proclamation." After some further conversation, Mr. AYRTON said that,'as in clause 13 the Government were given the fullest powers to make regulations, it would be far better to omit the smaller details of the hill. If the Admiralty could not be trusted to carry out the bill they were not fit for their places. Lord C. PAGET thought that at all events it would be desirable to adopt the clause under consideration, its object being to protect the seamen, and thereby to attract them into the service. Mr. HENLEY thought the bill ought to be made more clear. If he were asked what it meant he could only say that it was a bill to induce men to enter the Queen's ser vice, leaving them to get out of it again as they could. Unless the provisions of the measure were made more in telligible the seamen would not be likely to enter, and this praiseworthy attempt would prove a complete failure. (Hear.) Mr. LINDSAY had read the bill over two or three times, and he really could not understand it. It was altogether a very ill-constructed measure, and was much too long. It will certainly be much better to leave the details to the executive. The clause as amended was agreed to. Clauses up to 9 were agreed to. On clause 10, providing for pensions to volunteers, Lord C. PAGET said that the amount of these pensions, it was calculated, would not exceed £60,000 per annum. They would not commence for 10 years. Mr. HENLEY thought this question ought to be very carefully considered. He could not but think that the clause was too wide in its frame as it stood. It would be very difficult to determine how pensions should be awarded, as between men who had andthose who had not seen active service. He thought that if the pensions were to be granted subject to the consent of the Treasury, it would meet some of the difficulties of the . case. Lord C. PAGET adopted the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman, and the words, " With the consent of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury," were added to the clause, which was agreed to. Clauses up to 15 were agreed to. On clause 15, existing, g L , l t N he D A SA dm Y ira s l a t i y d c t o h u a la t, n w (: ! t th ex t r h e e ct sy v s o t l em unt o e f ers fl . oggin g tai S n i ed r C i . n N d A is P cip lE lin ß e dA h n o o u t t s e fl e o h g o g w in t g h . e . tnTy i a h v e y s c u o b ul j e d ct b e an ru d ai th n e mode - ad ministered of determining sthredoughttob b e y co w n h si o d s e e r a ed ut b h y ori the A t d w m a ir s al t ty o . be ad- The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses up to 20. On clause 20, Mr. LINDSAY remarked that this clause imposed a penalty upon the master of a vessel who could not give an account of any lad who was missing. Of course if a boy deserted it would be impossible for the master to tell where he was. Lord C. PAGET said he intended to alter the frame of this clause at a future stage. Probably it would be omitted altogether. The clause and the remaining clauses were agreed to t and the house resumed. POOR LAW BOARDS , (PAYMENT OF DEBTS` BILL. wentclauses into s es committee wel.e a agreed do to n this bi withoutl amendment, . T dT h ht hee ehseveralresumed. NUATION ACT AMENDMENT B ILL. LOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that a t S h ilU e TP o h r Ee d Cit er HAN f A or N th C the second reading of thi s bill b e di scharged. He did not think it convenient to introd uce a continuance act, but it was better to reserve the whole matter till next session. The order of the day was then discharged. CHARITABLE AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES, &c., BILL. This bill passed through committee. UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGE ESTATES ACT (1858), &c., AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was read a second time, but Mr. WALPOLE, whose bill it was, said he did not in tend to proceed with it this session: Amid some laughter the bill was ordered to be committed that day fortnight. MILITIA LAWS AMENDMENT BILL. The house went into committee on this bill, the several clauses were agreed to, and the bill was ordered to be re ported. The house resumed. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA ACT AMENDMENT BIL. The house went into committee on this bill, which passed through committee, with several verbal amendments. RESERVE FORCE BILL. Bill read a see and time. CORRUPT PRACTICES PREVENTION ACT 1854) ILL. On the motion that CONTINUANCE the bill be read a Bond time, Mr. W. MARTIN would not oppose this stage, but hoped that the whole question would be carefully reviewed early next session, as he feared that the act had not worked well. Bill read a second time. Sir C. LEWIS intimated that if it were thought right to have an inquiry en the subject by a select committee next session, he should offer no objection. The Inclosure Acts Amendment Bill, the Stock-in-Trade Exception Bill, the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Continuance Bill, and :the Inclosuro Bill, were severally read a second time. In answer to Mr. FREELAND, Sir C. LEWIS said it was intended to bring in an Ec clesiastical Commission Bill next session. SESSIONAL DIVISIONS BILL. This bill passed through committee. SALE G This bill was rea d a second time. BILL. LAW OF PROPERTY AND TRUSTEES RELIEF AMENDMENT CT. The Lords' amendments to this bill were considered, and the bill ordered to be read a third time. MEDICAL ACTS AMENDMENTS BILL. The amendments to this bill were considered and ordered to be read a third time. Sir E. GROGAN complained that the register, under ti e Medical Act, was very imperfectly kept; it was only made up to the Ist July in each year. He referred to a case which, owing to this cireunistanca, caused great injustice to a medical man who had been promoted under the act. WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained that the object of it was for re-verifying at certain periods the standard weights and measures kept in the counties and boroughs by comparing them with the original standards kept in the Excheqtker, It was suggested, however,. that the period m iQu ici be extended in the case o f boronghs from three to five years, and in the case of counties from six to ten years. Mr. J. LOCKE agreed to this amendment, and the bill, with some other amendments, passed through committee. FIREWORKS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill passed throngh committee with some amend ments. THE ARMY IN INDIA. Sir C. WOOD brought in a bill to repeal the 31st section of the act 16th and 17th Victoria, chap. 95, and to alter the limic of the number of European troops to be- maintained for local service in India. The house adjourned shortly after two o'clock. ' ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE. HOME CIRCUIT.—CROYDON, AUGUST 5. (Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.) llichai.d Cole, a private soldier, was indicted for stealing a watch 'from the person of the Rev. Stuart. wa s de- Mr. Knapp prosecut e d ; .th e pr i soner, fended by Mr. Worsley. The Rev. Mr. Stuart, the prosecutor, deposed t that he was in Kin g - s t ree t, G u ildf or d , on th e nigh of the 2d July, when the prisoner :came up to hint and said he wanted a bed, and witness told him that if he really wanted a bed •he would not object to pay for one for him. The prisoner directed him to a place where a bed c ou ld be procured, and be ac companied him 'there, and : ,saw. a man, whom he asked if he could tell. him where the soldier could have a bed, and he..was willing to pay for it. While he was talking- to this man, he felt the pri soner make a pall at his watch, and he said to him , " What are you doing ?" and the prisoner ran away, and he saw his guard dangling, and his watch was gone. H e gave an a l arm, b ut th e pri." boner succeeded in getting away. The prosecutor, upon being cross-examined, said that he was the curate of the parish of Stoke, nelg; Guildford. He had been to the railway station .to inquire about a parcel, and it was half-past . 11 o'clock wken the offence occurred. He went te,,. the hotel near th e ra il way , an d h a d a g l ass , et ale. He afterwards went to , the White Lion Hotel, and had another glass of ale, or he might have had two. The street whe r e th e ro bb ery occurre d was ca ll e d Swan-lane, and he had since heard that it was one of the worst neighbourhoods in Guildford, and that none but prostitutes and bad , eharacters lived there. Swan-lane was net the direct Way to his own resi dence, and if he had not gone there he would net - have met the soldier. The prisoner first accosted him as well as be can remember, and 'he did not offer to take him to a place in Swan-lane where he could get a bed. The prisoner told him that he. could get a bed there. He did not go into , any house with the prisoner. He did not slap the face of the man he saw in the lane, hut he certainly struck at' him, and his .• hand went round and touched him on the face. (A laugh.) He did not prefer' going home by the way of Swan-lane . be cause he knew it was inhabited by prostituteS. (A laugh.) Tho only reason he wept there was because the prisoner told him that it was a place Where he would be likely to get a bed. John rovett deposed that he was btanding near the end of Swan:laue on the night in question, and saw the prosecutor and the soldier talking together. They came up to. him, and the prosecutor gave him a slap. on the face, and said; " Can you find us a bed ? Witness told . him . that the houses were all shut up, and it 'was too late, and he should: have looked out for a bed befor e , and the prosecutor then said, " I am a clergyman ; you km*. that. Witness told him he was not aware of it ; and added that he was a " pretty clergyman" to hit "' him, and he bad better not do it again. (A.latigh.) The prisoner then asked him.to tell him where he' could get a bed, and the . prosecutor said that he: would pay for it, and at the same moment witness - saw the prisoner make a snatch at the presecutor'S chain, and run off, and the chain dangled loose. Cross-examined—When witness first saw the prosecutor and the prisoner they were standing close to the Swan public-house. It was shut, and, one or the other was rapping at the door, The '- prosecutor came up to witness, and at once gave him a slap on the month. (A laugh.) He certainly was not very sober. He did not walk particularly, straight. (A laugh.) Swan-lane was inhabitedbr very loose characters indeed. (Renewed laughter 4 It was. nearly 12 o'ClOck at night when the offence: - ; ' occurred. • Mr. Worsley, in 'his address' to the jury on' be- , half of th e prisoner, made some very observattons . . on the cond uct of the prosecutor, and he said there' could be no doubt that at the time the:transaction took place he was in' a state 'of intoxication,. and that he had been wandering about the town in that condition, and might have lost his watch before he met with the prisoner. Mr. Justice Blackburn, in summing up, said that were v o e f r ythe painfulfacts t t h o a k t e h ;r ad , a b p u p t e t a h r e e d q u i t e i s t t b i on e e v f i o d r e t n h c m jury was, whether or not it was made, out to their: ; satisfaction that the prisoner had stolen the watch from the prosecutor. The jury, after deliberating for some time, said ; they could not agree .and they accordingly ret i re d. They were absent about an hour, and u p on : th e ir r return into court, they found the prisoner guilty.grti Sentence was deferred. • I Ilienrica Hamilton; 30, was charged with utter- ing a forged £lO Bank of England note with intent to defraud. The Hon. G. Denman conducted the prosecution; It appeared that the prisoner went to the Rail- way Hotel at Woking, and had some refreshment, which he paid for with a forged £lO note. O n the ' same day be proceeded to the Swan 'Hotel, at Chertsey, where he tendered a second forged note, and he succeeded in passing a third forged note for £lO at the shop of a haberdasher in the town, a fourth being foutid in his. posiession when he was taken into custody,. . . .. The jury found the prisoner guilty, and he was sentenced to one Teat's'penal .servit 4 ' 3 CoUNT:RY: MAR:ICBM L IVERPOOL—AUG. 5. We had a very small attendinee of buyers at our corn exchange this morning, and the demand f or w h ea t was qu ite in retail, with a reduction'of ld to`2d per cental froth last, market day. We hittredfile'AtinipleiVf fine new American white at market, for *hieh . high priCee were asked-12s ea per cental. Flour had a less inquiry,. but value unaltered. Oats and oatmeal are • Still 'diffieUlt to move. Egyptian beans a dull sale, at previous prices. Indian corn had only a moderate inquiry at barely late rates. WAKEFIELD—Au‘. 5. The wheal trade still inactive, but business rather steady: for fine fresh parcels. Quotations unaltered. In beans', oats, barley, and p eas t h e market was dull, and' scarcely` firm. Wheat, per qr. of 8 bushels 601 b., Essex, Suffolk, a nd Rent, white, old, 48s to 525; new, 48s to 535; ditto, red, old, 42s to 455; new, 42a to 46s ; Lincolnshire and York shire white, new, 468 to 60s ;. red, 41s to 445. Averages for the week : Barge 3,21 9 9 3 48s : Od 1 0 1; ...—s Od Beans Oats ........-=-s Od - Rye ' 17 ........335 4d '• EXETER--Aua. 5,, i , ' _ I . The business was extremely dull to-day, at the following', prices : - 3d _,_ I Od '-' Wheat, white.. 5s Od to 58 Barley.. 3s 9d to 4s • Ditto red 48 3d t o 4 s 6d Oats ...... 3s Od to 38 3d Flour, fine, 30s to 31s ; seconds, 29s to 30s per sack. CATTLE —The m ar k e t w as poorly supplied with stock. , . A moderate attendance of farmers.- Pork carcases in small supply. _ Fat beef,p score, 108 to 10s6d Ewes, per lb .... 5d t o 5 0 I Pork carca ses , d o g s 6d to 9s Od Wethers; d 0... .. . 6d t o 61 d , Lambs, per 1b ..... 6 id to 7 d F at calves, d0....5id to 6d Rough fat, 4d per lb. BRISTOL SUGAR—Auo. 5. • • The market has been quiet this week, and sales limited to about 60Q hhds West India, 2,000 mats Mauritius, a nd ' 3,000 boxes Havannah, at steady rates, but the market closes heavily, prices tending downwards. Refiners' pro duce in fair demand, but prices are barely supported. 'Runt neglected. BIRTHS. ALLSOP.—On the 4th inst., at Woodington, near Romsey. Hants, the wife of Mr. George. Allsop, of a daughter. BAIVIETT.—On the 4th inst., at Woodford, the wife of J. Barnett, Esq., of a son. ROWLEY.—On. the Ist inst., at Blythswood House, Ron frewshire, the Hon. Mrs. Rowley, of a son. WonNum.—On the 4th inst., at the National Gallery, Mrs. Wornum, of a son. MARRIAGES. BOND—PATTEN.—On the 4th inst., at St. Pancras Church, Barnabas Bond, Esq., of Alburgh, Norfolk, to Rebecca Ann, the daughter of James Patter, Esq., of Upper Woburn-place. T r STEWART—CILUTTENDEN.--011 the 4th inst., a t St.., ohn it s Heaton Mersey, n ear M anchester; Charles Patrick, son of Lieut.-Colonel the late Hon. James IL Stewart, C. 1 3.1 to Frances Anne, daughter of Wm. Courtenay Crattew den, Esq., of Mount Heaton, Heaton Mersey. , • DEATH S. CAMPBELL. ---011 the 29th ult., at Clifden, Ireland, Com mander Patrick Campbell, R.N., youngest son of the late A.,Carapbell, Esq., of Milfort Aroyleshire. b Cuyn.---On the 4th inst., at 7, John-street, Berkeley'square, the H on . Robert WindsorTlive, aged 35. Inrstr.—On the 441 inst., at Copthall, Twickenham, Mid' dlesex, Joseph Irish, Eq., late of Tottenham, aged 69. LEtotr.--On the 4th inst., at 79, Newman-street, biro. Leigh, aged 75. • NATILAN.—On the 4th inst., at Vichy, France, M. - Nathan, Esq , of 58, Myddelton-square, aged 61. PASI:E.—On the 3d inst., at 24., Nottingham-pl a ce, Re" gent's-park, J o h n B. G. P. Pasko, Esq., late of the Hon E.1.C.5., aged 70. STANTIOPE.—On the 3d inst., at 'Upper Norwood, Mal:YI wife of Sir Edwyn Scudamore Francis Stanhope, Bart. , of Holm° Lacy, Herefordshire. LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG', - of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112 Strand, in the Precinct of th e S avoy, in the count y " g N iddlesex, Saturday, August 6, 180.