The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1806-03-27 00:00:00

in •re of 60 0001. a year, and in so doing, Ise thought .bey might very fairly be said to have sided with The Resnlutioa was then read and agreed to ; 'after which, Mr. VANSITTART moved a long string of Resolutions for miscellaneous services, amongst which were the following : 8000001 to die/barge ionerl for the service of N.w Beath Wake --feeete. for the charge. of Canada— 7,16 ,1 for tiora 5cutia...4,6:101 for 01,:w I.4•lgiuot.-2,1001 for St. Johee.-4,5651. fur Nelefewellel4.-4,4001. fur the Bahama bluets, oe. &e. The House was then resumed, and the Report ordered to he received to-morrow. Lord OSSU Ls•riN appeared at the Bar, and acquainted the House, that Hit Majesty had been waited upon with the Address of that House, re questing certain Accounts of sums, granted from the Civil List, and he had His Majesty's cemmends to signify to the House, that he would give di redions accordingly. CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. On the Order of the Day being read for the third' reading of tee Cape of Good Hope Bill, Mr. VV HI [SHED KEENE made some obser vations, but in so low a tune, he WAS not heard in the gallery. Lord GA RUES said, he was so little acquainted with the forms w the House, that he did not know whether his pres:nt interferetice was properly timed. As the Bill, however, related to the Cape of Good Hope, he could not help expressing his surprises that amidst the thanks which had been voted for brilliant atchievements, and villories obtained by our arms, no notice whatever had yet been taken of that gailent aftioo which had so lately put us in pos session of so valuable a settlement. tie could not suppose it was intended to be passed over without notice, and wished to know for what reason it had been hitherto &laved. Lord HENRY PET TY said, His Majesty's Mi nister, to whose department that settlement properly belonged, was not now present; but he believed lie could undertake to else that the reason no par ticular notice had as yet been taken of that import ant transaetion was, that it could not, with pro priety, be done, tall the conquest was known to be complete. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in answer to what had fallen from the Noble Lord, said, that when our army first landed in Egypt, and gained a vi Cory over the enemy, the thanks of that House were voted to them, though, at the time, the conquest was by no means complete ; and that he thought was a precedent which would tully jaeity Ministers in now bringing forward a vote of thanks to those brave officers an i men who had taken the Cape. Lord HENRY PETTY replied, that the affair of Egypt, was, at that time, considered as complete, but this was not. General TARLETON said, the House knew well, and so did the country, that our army had landed, and geined a decisive vielory, by which they bad obtained possession of one of the most valuable settlemerts in the world; and the brave officers and men who had achieved this, were entitled to thanks for what they had already dace. Supposing even that a - y of the enemy's squadrons, which had blipped away. in spite of the vigilance of our fleet, should be destined thither, and by lauding a supe rior force, should be able to retake it, that could not wither the laurels our brave count, ymen had al ready gained, nor deprive them of the praises they deserved. Bethought, therefore, Ministers might, with great propriety, come forward, for a Vote of Thanks. F. Lord H. PET l'Y referred to the Speak 'r, whe ther the lion. Ot were in order, debating this ?SIAM:" on the present (riestion ? It he wi,hi d to take the sense of the Ilu“as on it, he might do so by A distial motion. The SPEAKER sa'd, the immediate question Were the House was, l'hat this be the title of tits The Rill was th-n read a third time, and passed. The SECRETARY at WAll brnueit up s?veral Accounts, FUTStldlit to order, which were, on his motion, ordered to be printed. WIII4F.SSEs• BILL The ATTORNEY-GENERAL. moved to dis charge th- Order, for the Committee on the Wit messes' Rill, which stood for to-morrow, for the purpose of deterring it to a more distant day. He had intended, he said, to fix it for a day in the Easter week ; hut, as lie found it was aouhtful whether the House would meet at all in that week he should fix it for the 15th of April, by which tiros, two or three Gentlanen, now absent, who wished to give their oniniiins nn it, would he in town. Lord HENNIKER observed, that the day fixed was that on which all the Quarter Se-sirens would be holden. He thought, therefore, the Learned Gen tleman had better - fix a later say. The ATTORNEY•GENERAL said, he would ', the 156, at present ; and if then it should be thought necessary, it might be further pestponed. It was then ordered, that the said Bill be corn flitted on Tuesd iy, the ISth of April. Mr. YORKE asked His Majesty's Ministers, whether any ebjedion w s o ld be made to the produc tion of a Paper, which was an account of the clas sification of men to be raised under the Levy ex Masse Aft, ash • nv•ant to move for it to-morrow ? Mr. Secretary FOX answered, that he was not very conver s ant with the department in which this lay ; but, as far as he could sew, there could not, he thought, be any objedion tn ATTORNEY-GENERAL gave mike, that he would, to-morrow, make a motion en the stifled of searching the Journals of the House of Lords, as to proceed.:igs respe!ting the Witnesses Indemnity Rill. General 'CAR LE roN gave notice that he would en Thursday sem-tight, the last day of the House me e ting before the holidays, bring forward a motion relative to the Defence of the Cotawry, and coo. s l ated with the Deicirce Act, it nothing of that kind was before then brought forward by His Majesty's Ministers. IMPEACHMENT, Mr. WHITBREAD rose to make the motion of which he bad given notice, and which, he observed, Ire should Jo ui:hout deeming it necessary to make any preface srh.st,ver. He moved, therefore, That di.. Flo 4ae S • to,reat at th. Trial et Ord 1 E w • Coni.ssatfee sA toe a... iisukt." Oa the qaestioa benig put, Mr. OUNDAS (Lterd Melville's son) rose and i said, he should consider this Motion as prefatory to an Address to His Majesty, to order Westmin ster 1 stet. Hall to be fisted iip fix the purpose of the trial 1 being there holden. He hoped the House would consider the inconvenience, he might say, at least, of such a procedure, he migolt perhaps have added. the injustice and oppression of it. It must of course also be produaive of great delay ; for it it were carried on at the liar of the House of Lord:, in case any question should arise on points of evidence, or any other matter of law, the Managers would be ordered to withdraw, which they could speedily do, and the delay would be trifling ; whereas, if the trial should be in Westminster Hall, their Lord ships, in case of any exceptions being taken, would have to retire to their own house to determine the sane, which would be the cause of a very long de lay indeed, and prey let the trial very considerably. It would be a proceeding, harrassing in point of time, and ruinous in point of expence. He thought the case of Mr. I last ings, would have been sufficient ti. make the House pause, before they would think of adopting such a measure; and he was the more sur prised at the present Motion, because the Hon Gent. who brneght it forward had, nn the outset of the bu siness, when he first brought forward his chaigns in the House, argued strorgly in favour of dispatch. The last trial for a similar charge seas carried on at the Bar of the House of Lords, and that was the case of Lord Macclesfield, which was begun on the 13th of March, 1723, and judgment pronounced on the 2lst d ty. In the case of hlr. Hastings, the Dial began on the I ath of February, 1768, and ended the 23d of April, 17!ta ; which was univer sally allowed to have been vexatious, harrassing, and oppressive to the highest degree. He begged the Hon. Gentleman, and the House also, to con sider, that the private fortune of the individual, in the present Case, was by no means large, nor equal to such an expellee as would necessarily be created by this node if pricedure. If the Dial can be condolled in rase House of Lords, so as to answer all the e^ds of attaining substantial justice, he was at a loss try account why it miet not as well he carried on there, as in tVestminster Hall ; and he hoped the House would be cautious how they voted for a measure w ich would be attended with so much mischief to an individual, without doing any essential set vice to the public. Und.v all these circumstances, he must the: owe oppose the motion, though he c,d not know he should persist so far as to divide the House, u.;less he saw the House was generally of his ' pinion. Mr. *IIERNEY said, he would be far from wish ing to do any thing which might bear hard on the feelings of laird Melville, or any of his relatives, particularly of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down ; and who had, throughout the whole of this business, conduifted himself in such a manner AS to gain the respea and esteem of the whole House. He had, from the commencement, been uniformly an advocate for the measure of impeach ment, and theret..re he must support the present motion. It was, perhaps, true, t:-at the ends of substantial justice might be obtained, by the trial being cariird on in the House of Lords, but it was impossible the same satisfaelion could be given to the public mind. He WAS sure the public north' not be satisfied, unless it was carried on with as much solemnity and publicity as possiiile, and that it would be considered as a sort of comptorni•e, it the Huuse were now to alter their mode of proceed ing. The argument of the Hon Gentleman, if at tended to, would go the length of totally abandon ing, in ftrare, the mode of that in Westminster Hall. As to the expences, he thought that no argument against it whatever. Mr. Hastings had often protested against the expences, as Illigitit)S to his fortune, and more than it could boar ; but the House had not listened to complaints, but had per sisted in the course they had originally fixed on.— Here, said Mr. T. is a Peer of the Realm, one who h4l filled the first offices of the State, accused of high crimes and misdemeanours ; and who shall hencefernards b. tried in Westminster Hall, if he is not? As to delay, lie did lint think it would he by any means so great as the lion. Gentleman ap prehended. It could be only the space of travelling between the place of trial and the House of Lords. Under all these circumstances, he should think he ailed inconsistent with himself, if he did not give his utmost support to the motion. Mr. BANKS said, the case of Mr. Hastings was the strongest that could be adduced against the ar guments of the Right Honourable Gentleman who spoke last ; a trial which rctietled disgrace on that House and the country, and which had certainly been attended with an expence truly enormous. He had always beets one of those who strenuously op posed the impeachment, and was desirous of hav ing misdemeanour s , i n a ll cases , tr i e d b y t h e C ourts of - LW, instead of this mode of proceeding. If it were necessary to obtain substantial justice, that ' there should be a more extensive scene of adion, and a mare numerous audience than could be had at the liar of the House of Lords, he should have no °Nation to the motion ; but my Lord Maccles acid, who was charged witat a similar offence to the present, who was acsuied and found guilty of em bezzling the money of widows and orphans, en trusted to his care s was nod at the Bar of the House of Lords ; and if that Dial were carried on there, surely this might be the same, with equal propriety and (goal effeel. The Right Honourable Gentleman had talked of the public desire to have full satistaetion from the pubdcity and solemnity of the proceeding ; but he did not believe there was any such desire in the public; on the contrary, he thought they held it its abhorrence, and that the trial of Mr. Hastings bad brought that mode of pro ateding two total discredit. Comparing the twenty one days, which Lord Macclesfield's trial took up, with the eight Sessions of Parliament consumed in that of Mr. Hastings, and the difference, both in de lay and expenees, was truly monstrous. There was another circumstance that weighed also with him In these times, the profusion of so large a sem of mo ney. AS it would necessarily take in fitting up Westminster Hall, was, with him, by no means, a matter of indifference ; but he could no: help observing, that in all cases where great sums cut money are continually passing thrisu,Th men's liaads, they beet me careless of small sums, and scare. ly think tie m deserving their notice. Fur his own part, however, he was for saving as much of the Public mosey as possible, and he cosh& . . see no gend whatever in ircerring so II; less an ex peece. Another point weighed still more with him, elti..h sees, ilea where substantial justice mind be obtained ore way as well as another, he would care fully abstain from putting the individual to he tried, to one shilling exeence, that could .possibly be avoided, and for these reasons he objceSed to the present motion. Lord FOLKSTONE said, the nhieettnns made by the Honourable Gentlemen to the present motion, he by no means could agree to The delays which had occutrrd to its h in Mr. Hastings's a gctrirarl;d o eferen in not by any means owing Westminster-hall ;but to a variety of circum stances which were not at all likely to occur in the present case. As to the matter of expence, their argu ments go against entering into any expence at all in trials such as this, for high crimes and misdemeanours. It was and ever had been, the great boast of this country, and the praise of its laws, that trials, in all cases, were as public as possible ; the people expect ed they should be so, and would not be satisfied, if a case so important as this is, should be made an exception to the general rule. He thould, therefore, support the Motion. Lord H. PET FY said, he differed with the l lon. Gentleman who spoke last but one, in every point he had touched upon, and could nut avoid express. ing his surprise, that his arguments should have met the approbation of those who bad voted for chang ing that mode of proceeding, which had originally been determined on by the House. They had, by their majority, turned the trial in the Courts of Law, which was fixed by the House,into that by Impeach ment, end would now invalidate the force and ef fect of the Impeachment, by taking away its solem nity and publicity. The Hon. Gentleman had al hided to Mr. Hastings's trial, and said it was a dis grace to that house. He was not himself in Par liament during the period of that trial, but he had never heard it mentioned as a disgrace to that House, nor any thing like it. An inconvenience, ind..rd, it bad proved, and a very great one; but the house would call to mind, that Mr. Hastings's was a I case in which there were innumerable delays, and most of those inevitable. That the evidence was voluminous and complicated, and branched out into. a great variety of channels. This, on the contrary, was confined almost to a single point, wii.ch would contribute to make it comparatively very short. It the arguments of the Hon. Gentlemen were attended to by the House, there would soon be an end of those kind of trials altogether. The House would, no doubt, be ap plied to, on the same grounds, in all trials %%hien contained le:greater scope of evidence, and, conse quently, of delay and expence; and they would have no Alternative, but to desist from the wise and wholesome modes of proceeding adopted by their ancestors, and those constitutional maxims, rules, and regulations, which had to long, so safely, and so nrofitably been followed by them, and which had uniformly and invariably prevailed for ages. As to the argument of expence, he was much sur prised at the alarming and extraordinary extent to which it had been carried. If you found it neces sary to enquire into the true state of millions ex pended abroad, you are told of the dreadful l a pence of printing those documents, which are ne ceisary to a due investigation of the subj.el; and now, in the case of an Impeachment of a leer of the realm, and one who has tilled the hilliest offices of the State, for high crimes and misdomean ours. the Hon. Gentlemen attempt to alarm the House with the vast expence of wooden benches, flatting, and scaffolding, necessary to the fitting up a place proper fur the trial. Some people were apt to talk of the ruin of the country, but in his mind, if ever the unfortunate period should arrive, when that event should happen, it would be owing to the tameness and apathy e kit which they had be held the wanton waste of millions, without celliug the parties concerned to account, arid not to the expence of paper and printing, for the investigation of their conclu3 or for wooden benches, matting, and scaffolding, necessary to bring them to their trials. The Noisle Lord alluded tw the situation of the I loitoureble Gentleman who spoke first it: the debate, and allowed that he was prompted by feelings must honourable to himself in a private point of view. l'be House, would, however, do him the justice to recnlleet, that be was also under the impulse of feelings whirls aOneted him in a public point of view. He should, in a few days, have the ar duous and ungracious task imposed on him, of adding very largely to the public burdens; and, he felt that he could not, with any degree of justice, do this, without giving them, by a public trial, tie if full share of knowledge and understanding, of those circumstances which are to constitute and prove those charges adduced against the Noble Lord, of having been guilty of malversation in duly apply ing the public money entrusted to his care and ma nagement. Their participation in the full disclo sure of all circumstances attending 'the trial will give the most general satisfeetion, and that, will, in case of an acquittal, be greatly increased, from their knowing the cleft pounds on which it took place. This advantage nel.t stoke even the Hon. Gent. himself who opened the debate. With respeff, however, to the expellee which this trial would he to the Noble Lord. there certainly was no ground of eompl.sint es yet. He was sure it would be the wish of both Houses to make it as small as possi ble, and in case of an acquittal, he had no doubt but it might hereafter become a subjea of consider. anon in that House ; or if guilty, would he consider ed in the judgment that might take place. The first objeft was the attainment of steistantial justice I before the eyes of the public, and that could net be dent but by a trial in Westminster Hall, which would be absolutely necessary for the sake of a due solemnity and publicity. For these reasons he should certainly vote in favour of the motion. Mr. ROSE said, that he thought the :node of impeachment to be a very proper one in this case, and had therefore voted for it; but when he did so, be never thought that it was to be in Westminster ; on the contrary, he expeded that she last precedent which occurred of a Peer being tried, in the case of Lord hlacclesfield at the bar of the House of Lords. maul,' have prevailed on this ucc.tcion. It bad been generally supposed, that the trial of Mr. ill•stings, which was dragged through eight sessions of Parliament, would, in point even of con eeaience. have prevented a lecurren:e to th a t peeeice for I the future, as is all cases of trial, the House of jail s , as n Crain 4 ins ke, lrft it; doors or.-en Per theet that came, white there was room ft r them he thought 4 a much mcro pvhtic C .sect thin We s :, Mare, Hail. (.1 /gee :rem 14: vit-rri fr.) He pi n . ended then to say. that he thought gentlemen miot as well wait until they heard him out, befor e thy exercised their m..rriment. Ina trial at W tr•ti ti ta,a the public had no means ofadm assi-n, li n t b y getting tickets from wine j Or if the trial hotel long enough, perhaps to get them irt:m his ' ,i v. In use Ilah there were all the forms cf proceisinr, callingsovet a list of names, air a number of nth, formalities, to be obteri:d ee'Sry day, which WOH: not he resorted to in their own thamt.er, whe.e there wanid be no impediments. Thn tsitshle Lord dwelt much upon his reelinrs, in consequence of haeir burdens to lay upt , n the public. He gave him ere. die far the sincerity of these feelings, with illicit he was very *eil acquainted, not from having been in such a high situation himself, but for b.. ink thane years connefileal with that great man wilts held that situation fur such a number of years. He was well aware that the Noble Lard itt - ttlld have heavy hutthens to impose, brit he saw no rea on far such a gloomy temesentation ; as Ile was convinced the rewire-, of the enuntry wnul.j he found fully enmpetent to all its w ants. Ile al o admitted, that it was highly necessary to inquire hi. tn all abuses. He was atways a friend to such ir. quiries, in confirmation of which, he referred to his uniforrn condat in Parliament. Lord H. PETTY denied that he said any thin. of a gloomy or despondent nature. What he stared W.“, that if the country should he ruined by its finances it would not he from the expence mats or wooden benches, but by the want of prie ciple. Mr. WHITBREAD said, he had a great respen for the line of concließ adopted by hfr. R. Dimitcs in the course of there prom- , iogs ; but he con:I not hut ohs•-rve, that ell the force of his arguments to-night, rested on the expence, and vetAtious ratting!, to which a trial is Westminster 14a11 would expose the Defendant. Fur his own part, he was very far from wishing to vex, or to herrass art man, but wished this trial to be condutled with all that solemnity and publicity which obtained for British justice that charafter which it now justly maintained throughout the world. He feared, that if the gentlemen opposite to him were allowed to carry their principle as far as they now proposed, the next step they would take was, to shut up peblic courts altogether, and give the preference to privets tribureils, over all public courts of justice (Lod rics of ! 'acs! Pew tie Opps•iliars. cad of he.,rl bear fium tle .illitiorreal side* of the Heat, 1 By the same, they might easily get rid of impedi ments altogether But surely, when they rn.teel to reverse the vote for a CrittillalpV•ternltittn, and pre. pqsed the impeachment instead of ir, they had, t. r they most have had, all :he expeace against which they now so vehemently declaimed, in their con templation at the moment ( , erne e basil hear! / Trials of impeachment, in Westminster Hall, were. at all times, the unit'. rrn pre:dice of .Parliament; and the only exception to it we.. the cese of Lord :Macclesfield, whieis had been so often referred to. That trial would have been perhaps equally as short in Westminster Hall, as it was at the Bar of tke House of Lorels ; because, that Nobleman took few or no exceptions to the qttestions put to Witnesses, AS was done in the trial of Mr. Hastings, which was Always the great Call* of delay, because they ob. liged the Lords to retire each time, for the purrs: of deliberating, and dividing on them. But reel at that time, though the Leis determined for a trial at their Bar, it was the occasion of mane strong protests ; from one of et h:ch he read an ex. traa, containing many of the arguments aglete such trials, which were resorted to in the present debate. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rey) said, he thought a trial at the Ear of the House t Lords would be more public than one in Westmia ster Hall, which was very strange, as that chamber could cot contain all the Members of that Huse, who would think it their duty to attend the trial. It was true the House of Lords had been coesider• ably enlarged once the time of Lord Nlsccleefizid but the number of the Lords had also since very much increased, as rust he clearly within the krow ledge of that Right Honourable Gentleman.--v However, so far was Lord Macclesfield's trial frees deserving the name of being a puhlic one. that one of the Managers was at that time so severely bons ed in the crowd, that he died of it on the following day. The Right lioncurahle Gentleman said, teat he was always a friend to inquiries into abuses.. It may be so; but of this he w as certain, that the RV: Honourable Gentteman uniformly voted : wins: them; (hearing a cry of As! No! from the eppesi"e site of the House, Mr, Whitbread anewere.". " hot I say, Ye. ! Yes!") Being then called to or der from the Chair, he proceeded to state, that was sorry for any trespass he might nave made tee on order, but thought him se lf justi fi ed in ob•erse, r. that the irregularity did not begin with him. .i'•e Right Honourable Gentleman not only voted again!: all such inquiries, but also voted . originally again`: thie iMpachnsent. by dividing in support the previous question moved upon it ; and ) voted for it afterwards, for the purpose of game rid of the criminal prowess-ion; for his own par he was ready to go to any caprice that the occaue% might call for. As to what was said of get"‘ tickets from Lords, he thought little of that arz •• meat. as the Peers would certainly have more kJ: thotity in their own Chan !ser, than they could wee exercise in Westminster-hell. The Hon. Gentleman , who opened the debate, referred to him, as known' the circumstances of Lord Melville. It cater •!" happened, that, in the course of their investigetien• a snootier of things tame to the knowledge of ij ' 7 Committee, which w. re not necessary for them is be informed of; but he never searched into than : he did not want to knew them; not did he nice'. at any time, to speek tsf them; so that, in ' was not acquainted with Lord Melville's Is"" van circumstances. If this inn of plea were mitted, there neve: wowed be an impeach:nen. • pro-ecutien ; for any man may say, " it is Lot t " to prosecute me, fit,- I am too poor to deter d Upon the whole, the best security that c.' he had for prthhe justice, was, solemnity ate! t' licity in their proceedings. It was said, Lord Maeclesfidd, though tried at the bar the Peers, was a man of so high a charase• to have been Lord High Clrentell is, and IL