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LABOURERS' WAGES. Lord J. RUSSELL moved for an Abstract upon the subject of Labourers' !pages. PROVISION FOR THE CATHOLIC CLERGY. Lord F. L. GOWER. said, heroes to move a Resolution which would recited the opinions of that House on the expediency of mak. tag a provision for the Items° Catholic clergy of Ireland. If, since the period before the Recess, when he gave notice of his intention to tiring this sulgect before the House, he had naturally looked forward with some apprehension to the responsibility which such an undertakiog involved, and with an anxiety which might have led him to wish that some one of those highly-gifted individuals, possessing powers so much beyond any which his humble talents could supply, had introduced this question to their notice—he could not but think, now that circumstances had occurred since he gave that notice, which materially lessened the apprehension which the importance of the subject originally eteited, when he heard the Honourable and Learned Member for Winithelsea at tribute an importance to this question scarcely inferiot .to that of Catholic Entencipation itself, he could not but feel. differing as he did, in •degree, as to the importance, that his confidence nose in proportion to the individual benefit which he thought must be the result of his proposition. While, therefore, he wett far with that Learned Gentleman in his opinion of the importance of this question, be did not despair of being able to persuade him to go thine way with him in thinking it a fit subject for cog i sideration, as to how far it may be likely to promote the welfare of the Sister Kingdom. Dient as lie kilt himself, whenever be had directed his humble means of judgement to this question, still he had always thotighoapproaching it w ith a mind unjaundiced by mean and local prejudice, and unaffected by any illiberal party spirit, that it would meterially tend to promote the welfare of Ireland. (Roue) Diffident, indeed, as he felt upon every subject connected with the geniis of that country, he felt happy to find that his opinions were shared by many of those illustrious men, whose exertions were now unhappily lost to that Howie—happy, he would say,that his opinions had been shared by Pitt, Cesdereagh. and Cornwallis. They were supported, too, by one eminent man of the present day, whose sen timents upon the question be would. take the liberty to lay before the House in an extract from the Debates of the year 1812. That Gentleman, the Member for Louth (Mr. Leslie Forster) whose knowledge of the details of this question—whose laborious ex ertions— phose extensive research and powerful advocacy classed hen high among the enemies of Catholic Emancipation—has said, Had the Parliament of Ireland (he meant the Parliament which first relaxed the Penal Laws) consulted the welfare of that country, they would not have adopted a policy towards the clergy which has estranged them from the Government, and yet placed a power in their hands which may often prove injurious to in They (the clergy) should not have been left dependent upon the bounty of their flocks, and placed ahnost in a state of pauper ism, if they offended or differed from those wbo contributed to their support. The Veto I consider an idle bauble, not worth either acceptance or refusal, but if that day should ever come when the Catholic Clergy would be paid by the Crown—when promotion would he laid open to them as well as the Protestant—when a re gular education may be obtained at Alaynooth—theo I, for one, do rot hesitate to declare my opinion, that the difficulties in the way of Catholic Emancipation will be very much smoothed." These were the recorded opinions of the Honourable Member many years sem Ile (Lord F Gower 'only asked that his little bark might sail it the wake of the Hon.hlember's stately vesael,and by theadvantage of his skilful pilotage, reach the desired haven. He had stated it to be his opinion, that this measure would be most desirable, if it could he effected ; and while lie knew that it was consider ed by many Members of the House, and among others by the Honour. able Ileinber for Wincheleca (Mr. Brougham) and the Right Ho oourable Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whose absence he regretted. both in its cause and effect, that it should be preceded by Catholic Emancipation, still he would leave to the sense of the House both thst question and the details connected with the Bill of which this motion was intended to form der groundwork. Ile would be con tert to state. 3, a matter of opinion, the objects he proposed to ac. compile!). and the advantages he hoped to derive from a provision for Heenan Catholic Olergynien. Add first, he would mention the improvement which it would produce in the suite of the Roman Ca t eolic Priesthood, by giving them an interest in common with the Stare—the melioration of the condition of the peasantry—and. as a collateral, bee not less important circumstance, the security affinded to the reactant Establishment, and the consequent addition to the stability of the empire.—(hear )—With tegard to the provision to the Cleegy, be must here explain that he did not mean to make are, immedia te Increase of income to all the Priesthood, but to the two extremes, the Dithops and the Curates. Ile thought, looting at the sources front whence they derived their present provision, that any fixed income must be a great benefit, as well as a relief, to the uniortimate Catholic pennant. He wished here to meet in 11. ethic an objection which lie had heard nientionad, that this provi. stun wee intended to cut off the connection of the try with the miesthood, and place the latter under the immeril e a s t a e l :ontrol of the Government. To that imputatioe or suspicion he begged here to give the most solemn denial. lie was disposed to concur upon that point with • Reverend Prelate (Dr. Doyle), whose character stood deservedly high in the estimation of that House, that the offerings should, in the event of any provision, be allowed to re. main ; and although he (Lord F. Gower) would wish to relieve the Catholic peasant from a burthen which pressed heavy upon him, still when he looked at the way in which these offerings were made, and considered that they were given upon the most sacred and affecting of all ceremonies—that of the performance of the rites of burial—he could not but allow that the peasant should contribute a something to the support of him in this world to whom he looks for salvation in the next. There was a circumstance he would mention here which strikes conviction to his -mind as to the pro piety of the arrangement he proposed—he meant that portion of a. O'Connell's evidence which referred to the state of the Ca tholic Clergy. That Gentleman says that the Catholic Clergymen wee mostly, if not always, of the lower orders of society. Now, while be (Lord F. L. (lower) could not admit there was any crime of reproach in that which had been the peculiar characteristic of the first Christians (hear, hear), still he could not but regret that any circumstances should prevent the higher orders of Ca. chalice from becoming the pastors of their countrymen, or that any iodividual should find occasion to repress his religiousseal from the unfavourable situation in which he would be called to display it. It was idle to say that Government could have as intention of controlling the people by interesting the priests, for it was well known, that though in peaceful times they led, in troublesome times they were obliged to follow their flacks . Upon this subject he had been furnished with a letter, addressed by a friend to the late Lord Cornwallis, and as it might be allowed that his Lordship had considerable experience in the affairs of Ireland, he trusted the House would permit him to read it. (Hear.) His Lordship then seed the letter, which stated, that the Noble writer, being long ac quainted with Ireland, had frequently turned his attention to a consideration of its affairs, and that no subject bad more occupied his attention then the policy of making a provision for the Clergy. From all that had come to hit knowledge, he was convinced that no priest could do his duty as a loyal subject, without incurring the hatred or displeasure of his flock. This was the opinion of Lord Cornwallis. He (Lord F. L. Gower) coincided in it most fully, and be would say that it was not to be tolerated that the Catholic Clergyman should continue in such a situation. If he was .ac. tire, he was called disloyal—if quiet, a plotter of treason—if the advocate of peace, the betrayer of his religion. He would say that he should not continue time to be lashed to the vessel of the State, subject to all its fortunes and vicissitudes, tossed about with every tempest, but that he should be placed in a situation to act, not as the Minister, or the Government, or the People should command him, but as ditty and conscience would direct him. (Hear, hear.) He cared Ole with the more pleasure, because it was echo of the sentiments of the famous Edmund Burke on the same subject. The Noble Lord then read the passage from Mr. Burke's Works, to which he alluded. Ile believed that much prejudice and ignorance existed on this subject, and it was therefore with no small tdeathre that he (Lord G.) turned to that part of Mr. O'Connell's evidence, when he alludes to the monument raised by a Protestant congregation to a Catholic Priest, and when he relates the circumstances of the Protestant Rector and his parishioners accompanying the body to the grave. Such an event spoke volumes; it was grateful to turn from the records of bigotry and prejudice to the simple recital of such events as these ; it wan gratifying to view the transition from Sectarianism tee Chris. vanity. If it would appear that property has soured the impulses of Christianity, he would place them in a situation to draw forth kindlier feelings; sad he would repeat it here that he might not be m»mnderrstoodi hut he would reject any remedial measure, if it was intecded to undermine the religion of those who were to be bene fited, or to render their Ministers subservient to the tyranny or in. tolerance of a Government. He would tell them, in the language of Burke, he preferred his own faith ; but as long'as Ireland con. tensed Catholic, and in bin opinion these wee very . little probability of its ever being otherwise, he dimmest there was justice, pradenee, and wrend•peliey, iaElviug the Catholic Priesthood a distinct in terest nu the State. Here he could appeal from theory to practice, and call upon the House to look at the Presbyterians, and point out any mama& of the interference of Government. Since the granting efnhet provision which hid been forced upon the attention of every Sovereign since the time of James 1., they had been provided for out of the funds of the State ; and yet he would challenge any Menthes of diet House to point out a More respect. able body cf men, or the more beloved by those who looked up to than for counsel. Upon tnese grounds he would be con. rent to rest the Resolution, sa deserving the support of' the House The adoption of this motion he would further insist upon as some compensation fur the past misgovernment of Ireland, to the people of that country. Thy had been deprived of almost creep thing bat of tease hopes of a future state, which we could not take from them ; slid in charity, as well as justice, we were bound now to &deuce the prosperity of that country by every means in our power. There was another topic connected with this subject to which lie telt it to Lie his duty to advert. - Ettoomny was a watch word that always lofluenced the passions of the people, and was peculiarly calculated to excite the jealousy and alarm of a commer. clad nation r the House, be hoped, would bear In mind that prin ciples of economy might 'sometimes be stretched too far, and instead of being useful and el editable, they became a disgrace to an indi. vidual, and a curse to a nation. (Near, hear.) that word—that charmed word—would not rarely earryforre and influtnee with it, whoever may Le the magician using to (Hear, hear.) When it was mina as an obstruction to a measure, which was calculated and intended to give relief to an agitated country—to tranquillise a long-stiffering peasantry—to eradicate from their minds the hos ` • ' entertained against others of their country, and to of the perilous steff that weighs upon the arm which was hitherto moved for were the desirible objects of the greet fore the Howie, and which would derive Can from thaw measures by which it neceeded, one of which he had not the• though this was not, perhaps, the proper oils of the present measure, yet he vislied I r 1 , / i i I fill *ad intended to give relief t airing-suffering reavantry— • silky which they entenatn . cd tl "donne the foul bosom of soul," and to re Irian the an awassirrAtio:l—these • immure which w,..s now befs •arluitional force and effect vas rined to be succe Boom ti svhinit. Althuu "doll tiailu;. , to t‘ :ae ail MIWI IFEIM 1 to give the House an outline of the plan he intended to submit, which might, however, be subject to subsequent alteration. In this plan, the task was simplified to him by a recurrence to prece dent that precedent was to be found in the establishment of the Presbyterians in Ireland. A direct salary was first paid to the Clergy of that body in the reign of James I. They subsluently received, under a new regulation, the regism donum in Ll 9, in the reign of George I, and the last arrangement had been made respecting them in 1803, by . Lord Castlereagh, which was the one he would allude to principally in the motion that he should recommend. The number of parish priests in Ire land were 934, or to take them in round numbers, 1,000. Besides these, there were curates. who were at present very scantily and insufficiently provided for. As in the case of the Presbyterians, according to the last arrangement.- he would propose to divide the clergy into three classes : for the first class he would propose to take one-tenth, or two hundred, at 2061. a-year ; for the second four-tenths, or eight hundred, 1201. a-year; and for the third class, or one thousand, 601. a-year. This would require an annual sum of 196,0001. As to the provision for the Roman Catholic clergy, considering the station they had to fulfil, the ob vious demands upon them, and the charities they were called upon to supply, it would not be an unreasonable provision to give the four Archbishops 1,500 L a-year, for the twenty-two Bishops 1.0001. a-year, and for twenty-six Deans 3001. per annum. This would be a sum tour, of 35,000 L, being altogether a sum not exceeding 231,0001. This was, no doubt, • considerable sum, but not larger than was suited to the purposes for which it was required, or than would be repaid to the State by the advantages it would derive nom such a provision. It would entitle Protestant rulers to address the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland in a different tone from that in which they were entitled to address them now, and to say to them—" We supply you from our own stores, and we do not ask for an unfair return in asking you to exercise your influence as Chris tians, and for the benefit of the country. We possess a power which it would be vain in you to attack, for we possess means to defend it, and we are determined to do so. (Hear hear.) But you in your turn possess a power, which, as we alter the mode of government adopted by our forefathers, we expect you will turn to promote the mutual advantages of all classes of your coun trymen ; and as the boon is given with a grace and spirit, you will be disposed to turn it to the promotion of that charity which is the first duty of religion, and the spirit and the object in which, and for which It was established on earth." (Hear, hear.) Any effort to disturb that tranquillity, whisis it is their interest as well as duty to encourage and establish, must only terminate in common ruin. The measure was one that would bind the Roman Catholic Clergy more closely to the State, and whatever was the charge to the revenue, would be amply repaid by a diminished army list. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord concluded by moving, that it is expedient that provision by law should be made for the main tenance of the secular Roman Catholic Clergy, discharging reli gious functions in Ireland. Colonel BAGWELL, in supporting the present motion, ex pressed the respect in which he held the clergy . of the Established Church of this country for their learning and piety ; but, highly as they merited attention, their remonstrances ought not, in his opi nion, to prevent the House from adopting a measure essential to the peace of Ireland and the honour and concord of both nations. lie had no admiration for the Roman Catholic religion. but it was im proper, he thought, to impute idolatry to a Christian sect, the more so as the laws which were formerly passed against the Roman Catholics were not poured against the faith of the Roman Catholics, but against the practices of the Roman Catholics in this country at a particular period. He would be lenient to the errors of the Roman Catholics, as he hoped that others would be to his own. As to this measure, he supported it on its own merits, and because It would render the power and influence of the Roman Catholic clergy serviceable to the State. The other measure, relative to the elec tive franchise, he also supported on separate grounds, because he thought the present system of elective franchise in Ireland was bad, and required revision ; but he supported them both on separate grounds, and distinct from the Roman Catholic Question, which he supported as a measure of substantial justice, essential to the pros perity of Ireland. and to the safety of this great empire. Mr. L. FOSTER was desirous of early making his grateful ac knowledgments to the Noble Lord who Introduced this question, fur the very courteous terms in which he did him the honour to allude to the opinions which he entertained on this subject. He could assure the Noble Lord, that he was not one of those who had ever said or thought that an irresistible barrier presented itself to conciliate the Roman Catholics of Ireland ; least of all was he un willing to shut out the aristocracy of the members of that persua sion from a participation of the advantages and blessings of the Constitution. He was acquainted with many members of the Ro. man Catholic body, and with that portion which would be most likely to obtain immediate advantage by the present question being carried ; and be would in fairness add that some of them, if ad. mitted into that Assembly. would be a valuable accession ; but his objections were grounded principally on the power of the Roman Catholic Church, which would remain, after this question were car ried, not diminished, but increased. If in this country the power of the church was not felt to be, as it was in all countries, very strong, shy was it found necessary to establish what was under stood by the term alliance between Church and State, or what was, more properly speaking, a dependence of the church on the civil power ? As to the *do, which had been proposed formerly, in the shape in which it was proposed he regarded it as an idle bauble, not worth the acceptance on the part of Government, nor of refusal no the part of the Roman Catholics. It did not propose to give the power of n0m . ..118 Bishops to the King of this country, which it was reasona ble the King should possess, as it was once possessed by all the Sovereigns on the Continent where the established religion was not Roman Catholic. The Sere. reigns of the Continent were more absolute than the King of this country, and therefore the right of appointment by them might be viewed with more jealousy than if in the King of Log land, who was more limited In power, and whose religion was not so distant and removed as other religions of the Continent from the Roman Catholic Faith. The Roman Catholics objected to give this Mpower of nomination to the King, as they could not trust to future inisters, bitt it might as well be said to them that Ministers could not trust future Bishops. They even were reluctant to yield the power to Government of translating Bishops after appointment from one see to /mottle-, and he begged to remind the Noble Lord that the opinions which lie gave formerly, favourable to a stipend for the clergy, was only dependent on the regulation of the appointment of Bishops in the manner which he had deemed • necessary security. That these were the sentiments he then entertained would be found on reference to another part of the speech to which the Noble Lord did him the honour to allude. he'l stipend now proposed was not accompanied with such a condi tion and inconsistency ; he could not be called upon to support it. Besides, this stipend was proposed to be given in addition to the in. come which the Roman Catholic Clergy now possessed, for no se curity was required from them in consideration of this stipend, and they might continue to receive their present income, together with the provision now proposed for them. Although he did not take up impressions respecting the Roman Catholic Clergy from the evidence before the Committee, as strongly favourable to that body as other Members, yet he considered it fair to Prate, that thirteen years ago he was of opinion that the tithes of the Established Church were within the scope of their objects--he was no longer of that opi nion. (Hear). The Roman Catholic Church consider every other church as a nuisance, and every other religion as • usurpation. Heap. pealed to history, which justified the character he had given. If Ca tholic Emancipation were granted, the interest of the Catholics may not prove to be so trifling as was generally imagined. However Members coming in on the Catholic interest may differ on subjects unconnected with that interest, they would probably be unanimous on questions in which the Catholics were peculiarly interested. For illustration, he would allude to • party which already existed in that House, a compact--a wealthy and an influential party :he meant the West India party. Seldom, on general questions, were these gentlemen untied in opinion, but when any thing was brought forward touching the West India interest, there could nut be • mure compact phalanx. It was not necessary that the ques tion agitated should relate directly to Jamaica. Though it should relate to the coffee of Mocha, the cotton of India, the brandy of France, or the spirits of Holland,—if it concerned even so remotely the West India interest, all were found energetic and unanimous. In the same way, he apprehended that if the Catholics had a party in that House, however the individuals composing that party may differ on ordinary topics, they would be found zealous and united in promoting the cause of Catholicism. It was a material defect in the Noble Lord's plan, that lie had not introduced any stipulation. If the power of appointing the heads of the clergy was conferred on the Government, in his (Mr. L. Foster's) opinion, the prayer of the Catholics may be conceded not only with safety, but with benefit to the country. If such a stipulation had been made, he should feel the greatest satisfaction in supporting the Catholic Claims. Alt so the stipend to the Catholic chew. if it -woe Irrented at - ill, he thought rt shootd te granted on the principle of as alleviation to the people, and not as a remuneration to the Catholic Clergy from a Protestant State. He did not see bow a Protestant State could, conscientiously or consistently, supply pecuniary means for extending the Roman Catholic religion, and remunerating the professors of the Catholic. Creed. Mr. 111.'311.: thought it folly to refuse an adequate remuneration to any officer of the State. lie bad never refused a just retnunera. lion to a public officer (hear) ; but he thought it right that the State should receive a just return lot the remuneration. lie was - one of those who considered the difference of religious opinion in • State as a very great misfortune. It was impossible, however, that coercion or compulsion could reconcile conflicting opinions, and it was satisfactory to know, that persons of religious sects. Jews and Christians, may live together peacefully and as good subjects, and may copy their conscientious differences of opinion. When any one class, however, was admitted to pecu liar privileges, it tended more titan any other thing to create disunion and division. In this point of view he anxiously desired that the claims of the Catholics may be conceded. his (Mr. liume's) objection to the Noble Lard's motion was, that it contemplated injustice to the Protestant Dissenters. It gave the Catholics an advantage from which other sects, dissenting from the Established Church, were excluded. The proposition was of had( exclusive, as it bestowed a boon to the Catholics at the ex pense of the Protestant Dissenters. In his opinion all classes of religious teachers ought to be paid by the ;state. France, Prussia, and many of the Continental 'State', acted on this principle. lie I doubted bow fir the benefits anticipated by the Noble Lord would be produced by the proposed arrangement ; but admitting all these benefits as certain, he would be unwilling to concede to the motion, unless it embraced all classes of Dissenters. As to the connection which It is said would be produced betwee, the Catholic priests and Government, he doubted whether it would produce any benelit, and .or essed be feared the additional influence it give to the Gove.r.ment. The Noble Lord hate stated whether the stipend was to be granted with any stipulation, or from what fund it stiould be paid. If it were granted without stipulation, it ',mild clearly add to that influence which so *any deprecated. The house was not at present possessed of suSchst THE BRITISH 'PRESS. information to enable It tsaaakeauch a serious innovation as wits proposed. It was no organism to state that the Protestant Dis senters in Ireland had an Milmance from Government. This was no precedent. The Protestant Dinneetilli l• Ireland amounted to between eight. and nine bombed annanadi There were between two and three hundred and Hey were allowed by Government no more than 13, . Such a paltry sum haying been rented to the Political Dissenters, was no reason why the sum of 2.50,0001. should be given to the Catholics. It had been I said that we owe nothing to the Dissenters, but in his opi nion we owe as much to the Dissenters as we do to the Catholics, in proportion to their relative rumbero. In cooctusion, he thought the House should appoint a Committee to inquire into the subject, as they hod not at present sufficient information. He should therefore move as an amendment, that a Select Committee be appointed, to consider whether it is expedient for Government to grant an annual stipend to the Boman Catholic Priests, and all Protestant Dissenting Clergymen ; and also to consider the amount of the stipend which should be granted to the Clergy of each par ticular sect, and the fund from which such sum should be drawn. Illr. W. BANKES thought the Noble Lord's motion Involved an unreasonable proposition, and one which did not meet the wishes o ' lo 9 party. It appeared from the examinations before the Committee, that the Catholic Priests would rather do without the I stipend, and that the laity would not consider it as a boon ; there fore the Catholic Clergy and Laity were both opposed to it. The Noble Lord had stated, as one of the benefits to be derived from this arrangement, that the people would be separated from the clergy, which would diminish the influence of the latter. There was no ne. cessety for such a consequence ; for if the Catholic Relief Bill passed, the adeocatea of that measure held, that the spirit of incur rection would exist no longer in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He con sidered that the argument of the Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume) was entitled to much consideration. He agreed with that Honourable Gentleman, that it was not a pleasant thing for the Dissenters to see a large class, standing in the same relation to the Established Church, assuming a new ground, whilst they were left in their old station. it would be a great grievance for the Dissea. ten to be obliged to pay the Catholic Priesthood ; it would oblige them to support no lees than three systems of religion. The Pro. testant would have to pay. to bis own Clergy and the Catholic Clergy ; the Catholic would have to pay his owu and the Clergy of the Established Church ; but the Dissenter would have to pay the Clergy of the Established Church, the Roman Catholic Clergy, and his own Clergy too. If the Dissenters should press those ob jections, he felt that the argument would be all on their side. In. dee all the circumstances, if the proposition of the Noble Lord was carried into operation, he could scarcely consider that the Esteb limbed Church existed as an Established Church, and be should therefore call upon the Honourable Gentlemen agreeing with him to express their decided negative on the measure. Mr. T. P. COUItTENA I' apologised for addressing the lioese, and hoped that the same indulgence would be extended to him that he might hope for If he were a new Member. He wished,' while he had a hearing, to express his dissent from some of those with wh,m he was heretofore in the habit of acting, in doing whieh he would go no further into the general question of Catholic Claims than was necessary fora due understanding of the present measure. For his own part he never saw any objection to these claims that did nut apply with equal force to the case of all Pro testant D:esenters. In the proposition then before the lionee, they were called upon not only to vote for the general question of Email. maiden, but also that which went to make a provision for the Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church. In their doctrines, that (:hurch was not more repugnant to the principles of the Church of England, than were the received and acknowledged doctrines of many classes of Protestant Dissenters. Nay, on the contrary, he saw more affinity between the Roman Catholics and die Estab lished Church, and less danger to be apprehended from the latter than from the Dissenters. tie did not believe that the Roman Catholics would wish to subvert the Church of England, with any other view than that of substituting their own. (Laughter.) The Dissenters, he contended, would destroy it even without a similar view. He would ask, was the danger removed or brought nearer by the payment of the Roman Catholic Clergy ? When their religion ceased to be proscribed, would not the Roman Catholic Clergy entertain reasonable and natural expectations of seeing their own religion established. For his own individual part he felt the strong conviction, that the Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church might be brought into much closer connection with the Church of England than they had hitherto been. He was afraid that what he was going to say might subject him to reprehension, but he could not help declaring, that he thought the Church of England required too great a minuteness of conformity, and he was then convinced that the time had arrived when the Articles of the Church of England ought to be revised. (Hear, hear.) If any one would take the 1; ruble to read the thirty-nine Articles. (A laugh.) He would rather close his observations than say any thing which would make this solemn matter a subject of ridicule. (Cries of "Go on.") He then proceeded to notice some alterations which from time to time had been made in these articles, and observed, that being matters merely speculative, no two persons could be found to agree in them. To this he would only add, that being a supporter of the Catholic question generally, he would feel it his duty to vote against the present measure. Lord G. CAVENDISH thought a maintenance ought to be pro vided for the pastors of six millions of souls, and he trusted that making provision for this would have the effect of doing away the separate condition of the Roman Catholics as a body, and mixing them with the other classes of society. The state of ignorance in which they were—he would not say barbarism —was, he thought, owing to the situation in which their Clergy stood. What could be expected front a people who received no religious education ? The crowd of criminals tried at the Old Bailey was mainly to be ascribed to the want of religious education. Mr. Secretary PEEL was sure that every one would admit that the present was a question perfectly distinct from the general object contemplated by the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. It may or ma not be wise and expedient to remove the disabilities under which Roman Catholics at present labour, and lie, in coming to the consideration of the present measure, would not say a word 'illicit might not consistently be uttered by the most strenuous supporter of the Bill introduced by the Honourable Baronet, the Member for Westminster. No clear understanding could confound two questions so entirely distinct. The concession of the Roman Ca. tholic Claims was one thing, and it was quite a distinct question to determine whether the State should foster and propagate a system of doctrines and discipline which the members of the Established Church conceived to be erroneous, and which they solemnly ab jured and protested against. It was exceedingly unfortunate that the present measure should have been coupled with the general question of concession to the Roman Catholics. Ile could not un. derstand how those two questions came to be connected together. He was unable to discover why any one thought it necessary to discuss the intended provision for the Roman Catholic clergy just at the present moment Suppose the whole question of Emancipa tion, as it was called, completely and finally. settled ; suppose full and complete concession made to the Roman Catholics oh all that they demanded, during the present Session, why not then in the course of the next Session bring forward this Bill, and at that time let the measure take its fate, without reference to any other enact. went whatever? He again would repeat his question, why was the measure brought forward at present It was a question on which matters of the utmost moment and importance most closely de pended. It was proposed by the Noble herd (Lord F. L. Gower) that the house should coax to a vote which would determine that a provision should be made for the secular clergy of the Roman Catholic persuasion. %Vas the House in that state of information on the subject whiclt would enable it to come to a round and judi cious vote on such a question ? Were Hon. blembers prepared to affirm that they were sufficiently acquainted with the subject to say whether or nut the proposed provision should be made ? IVere they prepared to say that England should depart hem the example set by other States not so deeply pledged to the support of the Protestant religion—that of refusing to establish a church independ_ eat of, and unconnected with, the Government of the country ? In other countries, the fact of a Roman Catholic Bishop enjoying any temporalities, affiads a ground tar the interference of Government in the appointment of such Bishops. Here the Noble Lord pro. poems to confer temporalities upon the Irish Roman Catholic Bishop, but refuses to allow that just interference with their appointment which naturally ought, and which every where else does, become consequent upon any temporalities being conferred. Here a provision was to lie made for the Irith secular clergy be longing to the Church of Rome, rendering them perfectly indepen dent of the Crown, but yet deriving pecuniary provision from the treasury of the State. It was, he maintained, perfectly inconsistent with the principles of the British Constitution, that a sum of 258,000 L should be annually expended train the public purse with. out any interference on the part of the Crown. Ile trussed, ben. ever, that is ambiug this observation he would not be aecused of seeking to extend the patronage of the Crown. As matters stood, and with the perfect absence of all information on the subject, he contended that the House was not in a condition to decide such a question. A provision for the Roman Catholic clergy was to be made without connecting diem with the Government in any man ner analogous to the connexion which subsists with the Church of England, or even the Church of Scotland—a connexion with the Church of Scotland did exist. Now the measure of the Noble lord went the length of granting temporalities without establishing connexion—siving stipends, sod yet restating any attempt to esta blish a connexion with the governmeut of the country. Apart from all conslderatioes of a theological nature, he could conceive ne Mea sure of more importance ; yet they were called upon to decide It without being in possession of any thing approaching to the recital. site information. It had been argued, that a precedent for this was to be found in the provision made for the Preshyterian ministers. On this important subject there was the evidence of Doctor Cooke, the Moderator of the Synod of Ulster. This evidence has not been minted--it is not in the hands of Members, and yet the Mute Is called on to take as a precedent the circumstances which that evi dence discloses. He intended on that occasion to have quoted from that evidence; and when he came to inquire for it, the answer he received was, that the evidence had not been printed. If it had been printed, he would have shown from it that the Presbyterians of the north of Ireland, the body of Dissenters from whore circum stances the precedent was to be drawn, were willing to admit all the doctrines of the Church of England, and only differed front it in the matter of diecipline, lie cot dimity concurred with the Hon. Member (Mr. Courieray,) that in order to agree to this provision it was necessary to effect an alteration in the 'Third -nice Articles of the Church of England. Thom parts by which persons sub scribing to them protest against the errors of Popery, must neces sarily be expunged. flow otherwise can those who, from entering at our universities, or from any cause, are called upon to subscribe to these articles, be expected to contribute their share of 2;r0.000l. a year as provision for the Irish Roman Catholic clergy ? With such views of the subject he felt it his they to call on the House not to be too precipitate in coming to a decision. They were refer red to the case of Alaynooth College as VI. .! in Feint; but to that he would reply, that at the time that institution was established it might have been an object, and it certainly was an object of policy _ . _ J._ s. to establish a domestic system of education, so as to avoid the dis advantages then considered to be concomitant upon the clergy of the Irish Church being educated abroad. This then was obviously differenttfrom a grant of 250,0001. a year to foster and propagate a faith which the members of the Established Church deemed erro. neous. fie would ask the House, was it not most material that they should be in possession of something like precise and definite information on the subject regarding which they were thus called on to legislate? lie was informed, that there were forty-two Domi nican houses in Ireland. Thes should be ascertained, as also the numbers in each, together with various other information of a similar character not yet before the House. The present measure proposed to tnake provision for the secular clergy, trot for the regu lar. Might it not then have the effect of withdrawing from the former the confidence of the people, thus diminishing its ranks, and proportionally augmenting the numbers of the latter? The parochial clergy receiving the stipend might possibly lose their influence. He would not, however, have it understood that he went the length of saying that no arrangement could be n - a te. On the co or C he was of opinion that probably a measure might hereafter be intro duced that would remove all jealousies. But the House, he re peated, shook" have full and complete information on the subject; and he ascertained that neither class of the clergy was increastd or diminished by it—that in short the measure should not operate exclusively for the secular clergy without any notice of the regular clergy. Further, no satisfactory or final arrangement, he was persuaded, could be come to on the subject without some communication with the See of Rome, for the oath of the Roman Catholic Bishop must, he thought, be altered to meet the emergency. This, though it could not be done with. nut authority from the See of Rome, was nevertheless not to be looked upon as impracticable. When Doctors Murray and Doyle were examined betime the Irish Committee, he learned from them that although they had themselves no authority to alter the oath from its present form, yet that by permission of the Pole—a permis. *ion which they conceived not impossible to be obtained—the oath might be altered to suit the necessity of the case; but to effect this. communication must be had with Rome, and therefore, in the present state of the business, they could come to nothing like a just conclu sion. At present the Pope has the actual appointment of the Irish Roman Catholic Bishops. He might appoint whomsoever he pleased. He might appoint a foreigner ; and was this. Bill to pass without any arrangement, without a security ? The inex pediency of such a course was not to be denied. Arrangement and stipend should go tostrier ; they should proceed pars pussty lie thought it peculiarly unfortunate that this question should be mixed up with that great one to which he had before alluded, be. cause he thought there was a most essential difference between them, and that the unpopularity of the other measure would be considerably increased by it. After this House should have con sented to provide for the support of the Roman Catholic Clergy, he would say that the clainis of the Protestant Dissenters would be very different indeed to what they are at present. He did not mean to deny that the House would not be able to find some peculiar grounds for inducing them to entertain the claims now made on behalf of the Catholic Clergy ; but notwithstanding what might be urged to countenance the present measure, he would contend that its success would materially strengthen the claims of the Dis renter. At this moment what was the condition of the Episcopal Church of Scotland ? They professed the same religion we did ourselves, observed mans of its farms, and yet there was no establishment made by the Government for them; if then you should erect the Catholic Clergy into au established body, to be provided for by the State, how much greater would be the claims of the Clergy of Scotland for a regular provision, professing as 'lacy did the same religion with ourselves, and differing possibly even more than ourselves from die Church of Rome. It appeared to him that no measure was more likely to excite jealnasy towards the other question pending before the House than that now pro. posed, and of mixing up with the consideration of the right and policy of Emancipation the most distinct and separate measure of making provision for the Catholic Clergy. He conceived the pro position lobe one altogether premature, and if the 'louse should act so precipitately as thus to gives qualified establishment totheCetholic church, they wouldbe doing win direct contravention of the principles of the Revolution in 1688. The object and design of that Revolution was to unite the members of the Church of England and the Pro. testant Dissenters together, and the laws passed to that effect were made expressly to conciliate the scruples of tender consciences, who could not even go so far as the members of the Established Church itself in their conformity to the Roman Catholic Religion: he therefore entreated the House not to precipitate the present mea sure, which would inevitably tend to excite very great jealousy towards the great leading question itself. He did not intend to ho into any details, as he felt the House to be destitute of sufficient tr.fonnation on which to form a correct judgment. He had not, however, said one word which would imply that he had any objection to the Dill now proposed to be introduced, provided it should he in cidental to the great measure of Emancipation. But as the House bad not yet determined to adopt the latter measure. he did not con ceive there could be any cogent ground for contending that the one embraced by the Resolution now offered to their consideration should be adopted. It was not at all necessary to the Bill of the Hon. Baronet, nor had it, in his opinion, the least connection with it ; and he must say, that if the House were prepared to agree to the Resolution, they would very soon have reason to repent of thei precipitation. Mr. C. W. W. WVNN considered that this question was inse parably connected with the other then before the House. He felt indeed that the one might pass without the other; but one of the great recommendations of the Catholic Question with him was, that on its being effected it would necessarily lead to a measure oi l this kind. Many gentlemen who at present opposed Emancipation, did so because they wished to have a previous declaration of the House that a measure of this kind should be adopted. In order therefore to gain even one additional vote to that great question, he would most readily consent to give precedence to the Bill proposed by the Noble Lord's resolution. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel) had asked why this question should be coupled with that of' ' Catholic Emarcipation, and what necessary connection there existed between the two. Ile begged to state that in that House, upwards of twenty years ago, when first the Catholic question was brought forward, belied heard Mr. Pitt say that this, and this only, was the measure necessary to ensure the final success of that question. He always maintained the expediency of Catholic Emancipation being accompanied wit securities, but not such securities as con eisted in oaths or protests. The only safe bond that could be effected was through the medium of the Catholic Clergy, whose influence was so great over the minds of the people, by making them form a connecting link between the Government and the people, and a provision of the kind now proposed was deemed to be the only means by which such a thing could be accomplished. And might there not be, and were there not, political reasons that those who were to instruct the people, should have • personal in. tercet in the support of the Government? During the twenty years that this question had been discussed, there had been no man who would argue that the simple passing of the Act of Emancipation would be sufficient. It was never intended that this measure should have been parsed alone; on the con trary, it was always proposed to be followed up by other measures. It had been objected that although the proposed Bill was to make a provision for the Roman Catholic Bishops, yet there was no power given to the Government to overlook their appointment. His an swer was, that it was intended to introduce a clause in the Bill to obviate this objection. This. however, was matter of detail, and would therefore he better discussed at a future stage of the measure. But the main objection was, that whiles provision was thus to be made for the Catholic Clergy, there was nothing proposed to be done for the Protestant Dissenters. It had been asked, why net at the same time bring forward a question for a provision fur the Protestant Dissenters ? Ills opinion upon this point was that the present was not the time for the discussion of such a question. (Hear, hear.) Ile thought the state of Ireland required that the Clergy of the Catholics should be connected with thehtate. Their in fluence over the people was greater than that of the Dissenters over their members, and the danger to be apprehended was much Fester from the Catholics than any other religious body. Besides he thought that those from whom we had formerly taken the property of the church ought to be provided for rather than those who had separated themselves from us. With respect to the dispositions of the people of Ireland in reference to the elective franchise, lie would observe that there heel not been an instance of •eingle county throughout that country having been called together to express the opinion upon the subject. There had 'been sufficient time for the purpose had any feeling existed ; the abserce therefore of any such meetings was to him the strongest argument of theirdiepost tion to rely with confidence on the wisdom of Parliament. He was glad to find that no Gentleman had objected to the measure no undo discussion on the ground of economy. With see great an object be fore them as that of tranquillizing Ireland, he thought the sum of 250,0006 a year a very trifling one indeed. If the peace of that country could be secured at such a price, it would be a very street achievement, and a much larger sum to accomplish it would be well laid out. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) could say, from the very best authority, and from intimate communications with almost all the Roman Catholic Priests and Bishops in Ireland, that they had all unanimously said they had rather be without a provision tram the Government than have it. (Hear, hear, hear.) With one voice they had requested that they might not be called upon to" be grateful to this country for any grant to them. Every Catholic Priest supplicated his blends to abstain from making any motion for • grant to them 'by Parliament. They preferred receiving their stipends ;from their own people. Phe supporters of Emancipation had been called upon to answer how this grain would have the effect of quieting Ireland P He would not answer the question; it was not the measure of the Roman Catholics. He had himself said, if there should be a pro vision made for the Catholic Clergy it would content him; but that would be the Aet of this House, a nd not o f t h e Catholics. It was therefore for those who tied required this provision to show how this would operate upon the Catholics. He believed that if the Prierithoad were provided for by the State they would lose a part of the influence they at present possessed over the Catholic laity ; and what they would rece i ve vo l untar il y f rom t h em would exceed the stipends to be paid to them from the State. But if he asked for this provision, he did it in order to take from the Church of England • very great reproach. He wished to enable the Established Church to be able to reply to the complaints that were now made by the Catholics, at being compelled to support an Ests'olisliment to which they did Dot belong. He was anxious that they should have the power to answer them, in termaof recompense, "It you are assessed for the repairs of a church which is of no use to you, and where you have no vote, why we are assessed for a sum to provide for your priests." But they might ask us, by what right can you bold back this 230,000/. a yew, when you have from us many milliona ? The Honourable Gentleman concluded by ex pressing kis grateful thanks to the Noble Lord for bringing forward this measure, and apologis e d t o t h e House for the time he had oet.u. pied in stating his reasons fur giving it his cordial support. Mr. S. RICE said, that his reason for supporting the present quation depended upon two principles ; the first was, that the Ca- atone Clergy were more powerful than line other re li g i ons body— , and therefore ought to be put in an aineable relation •ith the State; and the next was., that the people of Ireland wire too pox to support the Church. There was no measure more urgent upon the poor man than that of his being obliged to slippnrt the Clergy. While it was the principle of some to here no religion rather then h from him re th li a g t io rel us t ion obwri . a He nc et knew altoec e the Catholic religion, his principle was to h onour tee form of worship and their mode of faith, which he did not respect, beeaue e it was Catholic, but because it was Christian. He would hare also that education afforded to the poor man by whi c h h e might arrive a t tttv poor owledpegmeen which w el h i o wouldwere k t p e t that because they had no means of paying th e st i pen d s of the (' lar ge' was the pernicious tendency of the present intern on the psi a kn e es laaman. With regard to the conduct of the Catholic Clergy_,„, the first place they were powerful, and he therefore wished the m t r e he connected with the State. But let it net be thought that he wished them to be dependent upon the State. Far fromit ; fur h e wail sure that if the patronage of the Catholic Clergy were in th e hands of the Government, it would make them too strong, m e tee Catholic Clergy in Ireland too weak. But he did- wish thi , Catholics to be placed upon such a footing with the et a % a would make them lock to the laws of the country ate he institutions with respect, and to the Parliament as Mei: best and wisest guardian. If Hon. Gentlemen were to look flack td the periods of the insurrections in Ireland, they would gee that the efforts of the Roman Catholic Clergy bad been at all timee and under every peril, exerted to check and put down the spirit of Insurrection. In the disturbances which occurred in the y eah 1782 and 1783, and also in 1786, ' , amoral lettere were sent forth by the Clergy, which had the best effe. - ts in suppressing the tent:mine and recalling them to their duty ; and for which conduct on the part of the Clergy a vote of thanks was passed to them by the Government. He would ask any Gentlemen who were at all nected with Ireland, whether they had not been actively mash! under every circumstance of danger by the Catholic Clergy ? yy own relation, the late Judge Day, being asked by a Committee whether he was intimate with the Catholic Clergy, and could speak to their conduct, replied, that he was acquainted with the RAT. Xi, Naylor, who was a Magistrate and a Parish Priest, and he retreat, bored his assisting to repel an insurrection at the hazard orbit life; "so much so," said the Judge, "that I thought it incumbent on ins to thank that excellent Magistrate from the Bench for what he had done." There was also another Catholic Magistrate who was spoken of as having acted under similar eircumataeces, la his (Mr. S. R ice's) own county there was a 31r. 111 who inte r . posed most e ffi ciently in the same excellent manner, and hie life was lost in consequence of his laudable exertions. He keen another Priest, who from his altar announced to the people, that it they did not take steps to restrain the spirit that prevailed amongst them be would read their names aloud on the ensuing Sunday. The coa. sequence was, that that Gentleman's life was in danger. Refer; therefore, Honourable Gentlemen thou g h t unfavourably of the Catholic Clergy, he would recommend them to look at the nidtere to which he had referred. The reason why he noir pressed this question forward was, because we had not a moment to low—be. cause, from circumstances which it would be improper for him to allude to more particularly, oat an hour's delay ought to be seliered either for carrying this or any other measure of relief to the Ronan Catholics of Ireland through the House. Let not the details alibi measure deter them from proceeding. Was the principle of it a right one ? If it was, he called upon the House of Commons to adopt it now, and hear the details thereafter. The argument of economy was not a good one. He was sure the people of England would not object to the sum proposed to be granted, when they felt how great was the thing to be accomplished by it. The mans thee. winos that had already been expended upon Ireland, some for bed purposes, and others for doubtful ones, would, if they bad been directed to the end now proposed, have rendered a most lasting service to that country. With regard to the abjection that by this measure we should have no influen ce over the regular efeey, it should be recollected that the regular clergy were ender the influence of the Catholic Bishops, and that tee Bill to be founded on the Resolution before the House would bring those Bishops in connexion with the Government, aid therefore we should be connected with the regular Clergy. In concha. "ion the Honourable Gentleman protested that be mid not have done whatever be might have been instrumental in accomplishing as a Magistrate, had it not been fit the aissistance of the Catholic Clergy, and therefore he felt bound both as a Gentleman and as a di ember of the House of Commons, to declare his high opinion of that body and of their desert t o t h e provision intended tor them by the Bill to be introduced, and to which he should give his most hearty support. Mr. GOCLBURN said it was not his intention to follow the Honourable Gentleman through all the topics which had been al. luded to by him, nor to advert to the question with any view to the expense that it would occasion the country : but although he would not make it a question of economy, yet he must be convince Mho the object for which we provided any sum was a good Um, before he could consent to its being granted. He however opposed the mea sure on different grounds—he opposed it because it was premature, end because the House was without the requisite information. He opposed it beuse he saw in it much that was calculated to deceive the Catholics th em selves. The Resolution on the table was much too general in its terms It stated that there was a necessity for providing for the Catholic Clergy. This, he contended, was stated. without full information, and was calculated to impose upon the minds of the clergy, whose interests it professed to consult. He saw in the measure before the House everything that Leaded to produce future dissatisfaction and disturbance in Ireland. If the (louse were prepared to come to • decision upon it, to my slut should be paid to the Irish Roman Catholic clergy, and time to Li:- mend a security for their loyalty and good conduct, the only way would be to lay down, in the first instance, precisely what the Pa. !lament would give and what it would expect. 7 n do otherwise would be hereafter to dissatisfy the whole Roman Catholic holy. An Hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Rice) had called upon the House to take the Mgison Donsim as its precedent; but the course adopted in that case was very different to that which it would be nee-every to adapt in the present, The Government which granted that Region% Potions to the Presbyterians were guaranteed the loyelty of those people before it watt granted. It was also important for the House to consider the number of the regular clergy, and the relation in which they were held by the Roman Catholics, end then to consider the effects of this measure as it would affect than. lie knew that in proportion as benefits were conferred, the cotfidn et of the people in their priests became Insetted ; indeed, it was so common thing for a priest who was more than usually liberal, to be distinguished by the epithet " Protestant Priest." How much more then would this feeling operate if their PrifFt% were to noun pay frmil the Protestant Government of the country ? At present the regular clergy stood much higher in rank and in character than the secular clergy stood, and they possessed a far greater influence over the Roman Catholic people. The Honourable Members who advocated this measure had taken care to keep the dissenting clone out of view, but he contended that if the measure were vaunt there could not be a single reason for refusing to the dissenting clergy the benefits the Roman Catholic Clergy would then enjoy. An Hear. Gentleman near him (Mr. Wynn) had said that he did not wish ei extend the principle to the dissenters, because there was no danger to be apprehended from them, but he would extend it to the Ca tholics, because front them he did apprehend danger. He notelet the House to consider to what such an argument would lead. It was, in fact, nothing more than to say to the dissenters, " stake yourselves obnoxious, and mischievous, and dangerous, and yen will then have a claim fur the advantages which we give to teen who are considered as suspicions and alarming." If such se sga ment were correct, in his °pit iin it was strongly in reliant of gr• ing this grant to the llissentra:as well as to the Catholics, 'its question then, if such were the case, was not whether we should ex. pend a sum of 25,0001. annually, but whether the sum should rot be far greater, as all classes of dissenters would have as equal claim on our liberality. He would conclude his observations by declaring that he objected to the proposed tonsure because it would be arming the religion of the multitude against fee religion of the State ; he objected to it becau fse o the rant of information on the subject ; he objected to it because it re. ferred to a class of clergy who were not NO nearly connected with the State as those who were exclud e d f rom t h e plan ; and he ob jected to it because it held out an expectation that the House would grant a measure which he did not conceive the House gm. pared to grant. Mr. CAL :RAFT raid, that it Wan somewhat singular that tee two Right Honourable Gentlemen ( Alr. Goulborn and Mr. Peel) who bad had the best opportunities of ob . aining information, were always complaining that they had not sufficient, and were always for more. If there were one man charged more thin another with ignorance as to the affairs of Ireland, it was the Right Honourable Gentleman who filled the office of Sarno? et State for that country, and his ignorance on that subject bad been recently proved by his being left in a minority on a motion It bad brought forward with respect to it. The amount of the sum re quitad by this measure was, in his (Mr. Calerall'e) opinion ° matter worth very little consideration indeed. The reason trey • larger sum was required for the Catholic Priests than for the Pres byterian Clergy was, that the former were so much more nuteerces than the latter, who were sufficiently paid by '21.e00!. can annum. If ever there were a sum to be applied in an emceed. cal manner, he was convinced it was t IS sir , „ and that before fin years were expired, this country would receive tenlidd fie the morey it had laid out. But wh en the happiness of a people were con:: night betak en dered, it would be trifling to talk of the sum by which that nee nese ass secured. The req u i s it e sum , h owever ,. from the many useless grants to Ireland, and be applied in this ee airable manner. He was convinced that it would be the sees" bond of tranquillity in Ireland. All great authorities had Icrl looked upon such a measure as the grand drsieferatnm with rerge g to that country, and lie believed that if it had been form er l y con sidered in connection with the Catholic Q uest i o n, many of these e ie who had been adverse to that question would have bee fooonb to it. But the Catholics had formerly said, '• we will not take it. they are now satisfied to take it. add he was sure that the would be so convinced of its utility, as at least to make an o fe e °' this grant to the Irish Roman Cath o li c Ch urc h. He would there. fore give the measure his most hearty concurrence. CREE VEY observe], that ae far as it related loth rim' a sum of money for the maintenance of th e Irish priestboodenj was perfectly satisfied with the measure; but if it were intenet; that the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland should be suppotted the Protestants of England, he would most decidedly eprcoe_', lie would say that the Catholic priests o f I re land ought Ptobe .' did 0 ,4 out of the Church Establishment of that country, and he_ it , know why that Church should he made the subject of pol IT; Patronage when the Roman Catholic clergy were starfige would never vote that the requisite sum should be pa id . 1 ""? 'stablubtnen• other way than out of the profits of this ('birch L Ott the general grounds of the mee-iire he agreed with the.. , 7;7_ Lord is proposed who had pposed it, but on this principle he wee hare '" ° conscience to dissent from him and oilier of his lion. on 31r. BROUGHAM raid, that after the observations e tw tai en ° subject which had been previously ade— e efter so much e 0 • , 1