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had move to boast of. He took this BM as the criterion of the talents of the present Government. The Earl of MOIRA said, he should not follow Noble Lords in any thing that did not relate to the mere merits of the Bill, as applied to its ob ka. The question resolved itself into a very abort one, whether the Bill did or not provide the additional means of a considerable disposable force ? This had, in fait, been acknowledged by all. A forge for home defence was not now wanted. The spirit of the nation had put that out of doubt. It would be childish to say, we had nut forces within the country, and attached to the coun try, sufficient for its defence against any thing thing that the enemy can bring against us--- but Home Defence is not the question. Wizen we went to war, it was ridiculomi to say we went to war fora barren rock, for Malta. He had ever used that language. We went to war to resist the ag gressions of France, to reduce the power of Fralce, which we had unfortunately and unwisely pet 4Mt te'd to accumulate into such an enormous mass. The question is not then for oar existence; no generous Britan.wbo had known that we had 'ovenin on: height of glory, would ever consent that eve should descend too second power. We would sooner perish, than tarnish our ancient name and glory ; to live, Ong for our own safety, or con , eat with • hat alone, was nnwor by of our characler. Oar anibi • tins. and the eh jeft of our exertions, must he to re direetbe powx of Franc.' to reasonable limits. The gpowers on the Continent cannot singly do e l t They must he aided by us. And they have • eight to expel that we,' who have a mire im mediate interest than themselves in this ,irtggh., ahnuld be ready to co-operate heartily, erre:orally, with ch um. Bu: how are we to do this ? Are we to wait tii the opportunity on the continent, among some of its powers, shall arrive ? No •, that is to throw away the golden opportunity, the precious moment and advantage. We want, therefore, above all things, a disposeable force. But how is tl.is to be got by the Bill ? if no more men are to be got by the severity of a ballot, with every enticement of large bounties, how Are they to be got by this - Bill ? The thing cannot be.— He knew of a distriEl where there were so many vo lonnteers, that there were tit t as many men left in It as the quota of the Army of Rewrite demanded. And these were not Volunteers who had enterea to save themselves from the ballot. Nu! they were ipso who had volunteered, and chosen to die, rather dews see a foot of the country yielded to the enemy. Where are the men to be got in this instance ? Or bow are they so be got ? Not by ballot, nor by this less efeaual means of the invitation of parish offi cers! This was his great objoflion to the Bill. It was not in the lean fitted to its purpose ; and was beside most oppressive. It had been said by the Noble Lord who opened the debate, that the objeftion was inconsistent, to call the Bill both nugatory and op preuive. But nothing could be more clear, that a . measure may have both those evils. It is very possible, that a plan may fail in its objea ; and yet be extremely oppressive, in its collateral et fitas. Is it so impossible, for a distriet, for instance, to say—r , You may grind us down, you may in fl ia ruin on our families by your fines, t you cannot raise the men ?" The Bill is, and will be incompetent to this purpose. But If so, surely it is oppressive to fine where you demand an impossibitity ! He did not mean to pur sue this part of the subje& further. In the place of this inefficient and oppressive Bill, he would recom- Mend two measures. 'the Militia arc to be reducedby this scheme, and gradually reduced. He proposed that they should at once be reduced to their origir,al quota, and the men invited to Volunteer into die Line. A prodigious rein'orcement would thus be aequ•red to the time. The second measure wa., to enlist for limited time. The E.sglish were s raer, and would much more 'caddy enter into ti eta• e, fit were not for that idea of slavery attached to it, .? which is forcibly expressed by the phrase—being old for life. It they could serve in the army, and return, Aar a few years of honour and comparative enjoyment, there could be no tioutol they would enlist much more freely. Thee two measures, be was persuaded, would render the Bill uaneces earl% Lord MELVILLE said, the Bill was calcu lated to produce a great temporary force for home defence; and a large addition 1116.- 1 mately to the standing army. He argued, at great length, to thew that the nature of man was [ Mt that it was reasonable to expea, that the 1 *Wier, who has entered into a limited ser vice, iesener ally willing to go into one more extend ed. He said he would not philosophise upon this proposition. He looked at the fait, and found it so. He appealed so the instance of the Militia volun teering into the army last war. We gained by that nearly 40,000 as fine men as ever entered the army. Our Aas of Parliament, relative to the Militia, felt and• lofted upon this principle, for they forbid the militia soldier to enlist in the regulars, knowing that otherwise the greater part would be lost to the militia service. 'I he Noble Earl (Moira) wished fur the instant rerjpaion of the Militia to its original number. Foe has part. he preferred the gradual reduilion, as preserving a large force for home defence, and giv ing an opportunity for the men gradually tii enter the service, which effect he ezpcBed from their gra ! dual reduBion. But if they were instantly reduced. . would the Noble Earl insure their entering into the regulars ? 'this was a different question ; and was to be doubted. The operation of the system pro vided by the Bill, in all its parts, was what he relied on for a disposeable force as well as a regretful home defence; and no part did he think mare prudent than that of the gradual reduction of the militia to its old boundaries. •f he Noble Lord then made Knee °bun:at:tins upon the method of • balloting for the Militia ; when a mall of tire !et.: four inches was drawn for the Militia, he frequently i r Found a substitute only five feet two inches—lie made a very good snldi, r. Ile then commented largely upon the ardour and heroism with which the heart of a British soldier was inspired, when he arrived at the field of battle, or had the hope of meeting the enemy. Ile adduced several instances to embellish his argument ; among which, was one of a private belonging to the second batta lion of a regiment ordered for the continent its the late war. When he found the battalion to which • be was attached was not to go, he concealed himself is oos of the transports till he arrived at a sunizient t k distance front the shore, when be thought there would be no probability of being sent back. This ardour and heroism, he contended, would be always found in a British soldier; and he con ceived a plan more calculated to establish a per mament moveable force could not be resorted to than the Bill then before the House; it was a well known faa, that the men who had served either in the militia or the army of Reserve were al ways ready to enlist in regular regiments; in the late war, no less than forty-eight new raised regi ments were distributed among the old ones to fill up their ranks ; when a man had once got a taste of military service, heever alter felt a desire to pursue it; he therefore thought that by this Bill, they would in the first instance obtain an efficient force, which afterwards could easily be made use of to encrease the Regular A-my he deprecated the mode adopted to increase the Regular Force last war; that of young men of famine raising men for rank : by this method, meritorious and deserving officers, men of talent and experience, ‘sho had served for years with honour to themselves, and advantage to their country, were disgraced and insulted by having young men, wholly ignorant of that moitt honourable profession, put above them, and made superior in rank, mrvly because they were more fortunate in wort l'y circiimstances. Upon the whole of this subjea and the several grounds which he had stated, he did conceive the Bill was such a one as would answer every purpose, and, therefore, gave it his hearty colictor.ince Tne Duke of It I HMO VD then rose : his argn mi:a:s were chiefly in Allis\ er to the Noble Lord who spoke last : he obsetved that the French had a laud tnrce, consisting of not less than 400,000 men ready to snrreund this country ; and that the Militia force of England was by no means sufficient to oppose them ; he did conceive the plan of suffering the Militia to volunteer their services, was one of the most injudicious measures that ever was resorted to by the Government of this country. From the moment such a me tsnre was reduced to praaice, the whole of the Militia were in a state of drunken- Less and dissipation for weeks together, totally ig noront who were their officers. In the present state of the country, a disposable force was wanting, and should he established. Tiii Farl of Ltg IC K spoke in answer to the Noble Duke. The Eail of WESTMORELAND, in a very ani mated speech, warmly supported the Hill. Lord HOBART said, he could not support the present Bill. In the first place it was unnecessary, for it enaaed nothing which government was not al ready able to do without it. Government may re crutt int" limited or regular service. in the way pre scribed by the Bill ; where then was the necessity to have recourse to it ? But it was not only unneces sary, but nugatory also. It may raise money in the several pari.,hes, but it will not procure men ; while at the same tinge it will degrade and embarrass a re speclable body of men, the parish officers, and in volve them in a course with which they are totally unacquainted. It was also oppressive in a constitu tional point of view, as raising men for rank was protimaive of the worst consequences to the army. For these reasons he could not give his support to the The Earl of SUFFOLK also spoke against the Bill. He thought a plan might be devised for an armed ;stipulation that would be equal to the defence Lf the country. Lord GitENVILLE--As I regret at this late hour to occupy the time of the House; but when a man has made up his mind, when he has come to a &re.? alecisive resolution upon a subject, and that subject happens to he one of great magnitude and importance to the interest of the country, it becomes hiadsuyin speak out,and to declare his opinion openly and publicly to the world. Bin before I enter into the merits of the question. I must beg leave to observe, that, in the many! years during which I have had the honour of a seat in Parliament, I never knew a case in which so much industry and such endeavours were used to provoke hosti lit!, and to divert the pure current of debate from fair argument, and introduce personality, al ways irjurious, inconvenient, and ill-suited to the presentistate of the country, in which it is placed by a concurrence of circumstances unexampled in the history of the world, and, above all things, ill-suit:d to the temper and feeling with which I view this interesting subjea, and would wish to examine it. In the list of those who support this measure, it has Leen my lot to have passed most of my life in habits of intimacy and friendship with two Noble Lords, who have taken an aaive part in the busi ness; and, whatever provocations have been given, I shall take care not to introduce, in the observations which I mean to offer, any thing inconsistent with the scntimeats of friendship and esteem which I shall ever entertain for those noble personages. But if this he my principle, and this the line of coastal which I mean to pursue, it is a little hard that shall nut he allowed to suhnsit my opinion candidly and fairly to the House, without being told that my obj.cnions are nut to the measure, but they all apply personally. To come now to the merits of the question—l say the measure is ill-suited as to time, Pace, circumstances, and persons. This is my opinion; but I am told the Bill ought not to be opposed by assertions, but by arguments. I say then here are arguments, and the next question is whether they arc not good ones? As a Noble Lord lota justly observed. I sec no advantage to be de rived from the public disclosure and discussion of those differences of opinion between me and certain persons with whom I was once in the habit of aging; but still there is nothing affeaing myself personally that I am desirous to keep from the public. Whatever may be the claims of the present Government, I do think the public feel that such a Government has not been made as might have been made, and the peculiar eir‘unistanses of ;he country required. Having said this; and I am willing to say, that this little hos been wrung from me, I now pass to the Bill before the House. It is not one solid objea . ton upon which I rely. I have a string of obje Lions to the measure. One says the objeaions to the Bill are small; ano ther, that they are futile and frivolous; but my ob. jea ioos, I hope, do not come within any of these de scriptions. Aly objea9ions are, that the measure is unconstitutional I that it is inefficient; that it is op pressive to the country, which deserved better moor hands, and whose zeal and loyalty were wound up, and exerted to such a pitch, that the cord was ht danger of cracking; and, lastly, because it • tends to impede the growth of our force, and to diminish that which already exists. As to the principle of the Bill, it is is difficult task to extricate and seleA the principle from the de• tail, so as to see clearly what is the real and precise principle. In the present case, I may state the principle to be to substitute for the Militia, a larger Military Force for limited service, Which should farther serve as a supply for the increase of the Regular Force, and to establish a permanent Regular Army. upon the first of these ques tions I must observe, that this is a moment when, as far as public opinion can be colleded, all are agreed a great exertion should be made to aug ment the regular force of the country. Let us then, by the present measure, by this rule, and, I ad:, is it the best that can be devised, to increase our dis poseable force ? By adopting it you establish this, for the first time, as a component part of the British army, a pa.t amounting to sixty thousand men limited to home service, and com manded by regular officers. I do net here contend for the full length to which those would go who maintain that we should not have a large disposeable force. But I think, that instead of assimilating and amalgamating all our force with the regular army, we should have a force, in its principle, nature, and construdion, entirely different from it. 'this is the principle upon which the militia is founded. In of ficers who are country gentlemen, in men, and na ture of service, it is kept distind and distant from the regular army. The Militia is not an ano:naly from the regular force, but is, for gond and substantial reasons, a system founded upon different principles, and kept as a distind and different sort of force.— But what does the present Bill propose ? It calls upon you to reverse this system, and to blend that force, which ought to be kept distind, with the Regu lar Army. The more the Bill effeds this purpose, the better they consider it; but, in my opinion, it is so much the worse, as it establishes a new system tatal to discipline, to subordination, and union. My Lords, much has been said by the Noble Vis count opposite to me (Lord Melville) of the spirit of honour, the thirst of glory, and the desire of dis tindion, with which the officer, at the head of these battalions, will be animated. But I am inclined to draw very different conclusions. I think die prin ciples of this Bill will give a severe, I fear, a fatal blow, to all that is enviable and worthy of admiration in the military character and in the arrangement of these first and second battalions, confusion and insubordination seem to me the only probable result. The men in the second, for in stance, which will be raised for limited service only, and which, it has been supposed, will be easily induced to volunteer into the first, may, if they please, say to the officer who is to humble himself in order to induce them to enlist for general ser vice; No, unless me a higher bounty : you cannot move me unless I please." With respeA to the Army of Reserve, I had many objeAions to it, but that was a momentary measure, and adopted for temporary purposes only, but the objet of this Bill is to perpetuate all the evils of that system : and still more, for it will have the effect of locking up in the most injurious manner the services of all the men who are raised under it. These has been a great deal said of the ardour which will prevail in men who are once em barked in military service, and Acquired military habits. It has been argued, that they will be easily prevailed upon to extend their cervices, and acquire attachments to their officers, which will induce them to volunteer for the Regular Regiments. I certainly canitot set my experience against that of many of the military members of this House, who, it is said, concur in this opinion ; but I must say, that my exper:enee contradids that probability. With ie sped to the advantage of inlisting soldiers fm• a limited period, I concur in all the arguments which hive been stated, but against a limited ser vice I must ever protest. As to the propositions which have been stated by a Noble lit near me (Earl Moira) for recruiting the Regular Army, it has been said that they have not escaped the attention of Ministers, and that t' ey mean to consult officers of experience upon the subject ; but I fear that is like the resolution which was once common in the States General of Holland, ad ryfrrendam. My Lords, I do think that by pursuing the system of recruiting the regular army, we should do more to establish all efia ttive force than by ten such Bills as the preset.:. As to what has been so forcibly urged by tile Noble Viscount (Melville) of the ill died' attending the practice of oincers raising men for rank, I most En tirely concur with him, and I am glad he has stated it in so bold and manly a manner. My Loads, I concur with him from the result of a bitter and dear bought experience during the last war. if any thing could make men inclined to enter into general service, it would be from the regular system of re cruiting being adopted, which, 1 am sure, would operate as a motive of pride and a spur to ambition, mach more than this Bill. But it is said that the mischievous effect of conipetition in bounties will be done away. I do not think that it will, for the risen in the second battalion will be ready enough to raise a competition in price before they volunteer for general service. With respell to the sy.tem of ballot, however it may have been abus •il. its greed principle was wise and just It wa: kunded on the basis of equal liability, and proportioned upon the principle of population. lint this Bill ales% the property, not the population ; and let me remark with what extreme inequality it will operate upon different pandits,accord ing to their different situations and inhabitants. One may be a very extensive grazing parish with few inhabitants. They cannot possibly raise eieir quota, and must consequently be tined. Ano ther is a place of great trade and manufadures, and their quota will be easily r.tised. is it possible to say that this is not gross injustice? Instead of the proportion of men to be raised, falling upon the whole population of the country. the died this proposition will be, that it will exclu sively fall upon the agricuhutal interest, and upon time who pay poor's rates, while all otheis will be exempted. The ballot operated eqiiaily upon all; but this measure will exclusively affect the farmers and great landed proprietors. As to another clause in this Bill, that the charge of raising recruits shall be intrusted to the management of the churchwardens, it is so futile in itself, that I should say hula about it, if it were not for the alarming consideration, that by* tiiiS 'Bill may b e raised tines amounting to two 'millions; a sum equal to the whole produce of . the Laud Tax, at four shillings in the pound. I confess I think the time of the churchwardens will be badly taken up in the execution of this new office, and they may, pethaps, incur a fine fur not doing what it was rap t in their power to do. But what reason is there to suppose they can procure men now, when on a forme r occasion they could not effect it, with all the assistance which could be given to them. Rut what necessity is there for all this operose process when the point might be attained by ranch simpler mean,;' Th e result of it, in my opinion, will be that, after all, the army must be recruited for government bounties by the regular officers. It has been said, in the course of the debate, that exemptions had a very great if - - fed in inducing Volunteers first to enter, and the n to continue in the service ; but the eff ect of thi s measure will be to annihilate those exemptions, t o which I have never been favourable in the extent they have been contended for, and then nothin & will remain but the p ttriotisin and spirit of the Ind ' . vidital ; for even the exempted Volunteer will b e rated, assessed, and fined for the deficiency which may happen in his parish. I now come to that par t which the Noble Earl,who opened the debate, thought the best of the whole Bill ; and I must confess the preamble and this clause would alone induce me to vote against the measrue. It creates not a provisi. onal army formed for temporary purpost:i, but a le. gular standing military force. This is, and I hope ever will be, a new principle in our constitution. The Militia is the only instance of an armed pot:a which exists in time of peace, by the regular opera tion of law ; but the principles of the two establish ments sr.! widely different indeed, and in nothing more so than in being commanded by the Nobility and the principal landed Gentry of the country. This force, however, if raised at all, will retain a military spirit which is inherc:tt in its nature, and will not be st all commanded by the property of the country, but by the officers of the regular a:my un der the influence cf the crown. ibly 1. , 14;S, it has, and I trust ever will he. the distinguishing feature of this country, that su h 7.-1-m:tarot establishmeirs will not be allowed. It wit: at once put us on the footing of the absolute governments of Europe ; it is applicable to such governments «lb ; and, however much I *re:: its the necessity of a large disposable force, this is not that sort of army winch, in my opinion, can be constitutiot, .fly raised in this country." His Lordship dwelt upon this point for some time with peculiar energy and force, and concluded by giving his negative to the motion. Lord HAWKESBURY expressed, that after al which had been said by several Noble Lords, felt it his duty to come to a brief discussion of t.. Bill without studying the grounds too minutely on which it was projeded. He thought the House ought rather to be employed in discovering how the country could be benefited by its operaticris than by entering into subjeds foreign from the Bill. A Noble Duke had observed in the progress of the debate, that he bad found no circumstance to enable him to think the Bill would be answerable to the purpose it was proposed to effect. Its anwer to which, his intention was, to urge a few radio: 7 re- marks, limited to the subjea. The Bill was founded on the measure of the Army of Reserve, pasted during the last session of Parliament I a measure, most undoubtedly the best that could be adapted fur augmenting the force of the country, that could possibly come under legislative consideration. There were in it, notwithstandingi several provisions which were considered as temporary improprieties, and required to be modified; such as the interference which recruits raised by the provisions of that Pall, would have with recruiting the regular army, the mode of finding the substitutes, and other objedions. Two questions then arose, name -Ir, whether it was better to repeal the Rill, or whether it was more expedient to suspend the Army or Reserve ? The result was, it became ne cessary to suspend part of the operations of the Amy of Reserve, and to engraft a permanent measure, to o'us hoe .:11 olqedions in providing for the general de. fence. presnt Bill, therefore, strut to suspend every oppressive and disagreeable measure, and to adopt a pet marten: measure. With respee is the icsluaitin of the Militia, he (the N'oble Ltisi) WAS one of those who, when that sithica wa; fOT. moly debated, proooseJ 61,000 for England, and 12,000 for Scotland, the whole making ;1.000. That number was sufficiently lame at the time of such an intimation ; but, front the situation of things, and the steumulalioa of Continental power, on military force now required to be augmented.— It is not contended 72,000 were more than n sary. It was allowed by many that we wanted more, but how were we to have such a force? we wanted a force that would be disposeable either to Ireland, the islands in the Channel, or other places; the force proposed in the Bill was of that desnp tion, and could not be procured by better meats than the present measure. The state of England Europe, and the world at large, m.inilessel that our military ought to be augmented. Former wars, and the danger of invasion increased the military of the country, but the forces, though nu merous, were not pr tented by any former ststcu with the facility VI eh the present expedient F'r mod to afford. V, nit :espia to recruiting. it lot been said from military authority, that the number of recruits raised WAS at all times ptir'rtionate t) the number of persons employed in recruiting. Ii that WaStf ue,the Bill certainly possessed all theadvsti t Ige that could be desired. An observation had lea made, that Churchwardens were improper persecs to have the conduuf of raising men, and distributi.:g bounties ; but they had ica been proved unfit ; and the experience of many Noble Lords would inform them, that Parish Officers had bean before employed 0:1 similar service, for the public g, rod, during which ri , ) mate. complaints had arisen, as to the r cur: daa. The Bill, upon the whole, would ;:if r.l .at the prop.) ....;c1 benefits, and obviate those ditlicuult complained of. A Noble Lord had objeaed so t 3 e measure as unconttisutional, and against. the epilit_ , the Bill of Rights. by which a great force not have more than a year's existence in the counter. No man could hare a greater veneration t. r the Bj of Rights than he had, but how do we now stirs.? C ,ul.l we reTulatc the force by confining 00 M Military to any number of men dilated by the Bill of Rghts ? Tire Noble Lotd might look at the ids,9tnl Volunteers in arras, and say whetilei WM= there v not *PI the win that in good. Earl Lord cruitins been tri pose,' it The took pl Content Adjoi this mo Sir CI port of W 43 agri in the sa to the former r to the s. The ao4 bring ii corps, reigner Mr. clause i iotts p :. • Ott LI ?em te eff corps. r. of this it was . accord troops or will know COsVc durin Thos erper wide partr sire ; Vic I; 'lltem vestij Inc ij pie ( Uses, The dt'pll oftoi PuL,li