The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1805-06-26 00:00:00

low .r 0 dale irrirsitachment ? It had been strongly f v , ,yrd by Gentlemen that it WAS. Ile should,. how. flee, ts.• RI.tJ to know this—how do the Hon. Gen s • in their information ? There is but one t`imen dire at such klowledge, and t i 4 , is by their vo te s. If that be resorted is 4; t h e pineal lease. it will he fested that the we i ee ley were against the impeachment, and in criminal prosecution. Gentlemen 14 t v r e a r r e ed the Parliamentary ground ; what is this ? ,i low a oes it enable them to form a judgment as to tee n ' n s and determinations of others ? There are i t: Ques tions, which cannot he answered, if put is such a way, that you must say yes or no to them. Thee s si "I he, is a question of two parts ; fest, v-hether it should be a criminal prosecution or not ? I d, sec ondly , how it was to be carried on ? Sup. reee - y ou . pin the general question, Does the Noble , ? J deserve to be impeacheeSome will say, yes; so me seme will say , no. Indeed, they might rdivided into four classes, . and some would e for one mode, some for another, some for none „ t all . Ist. Ought there to be a criminal prose cution? eelly. Ought it to he by impeachment ? Ought it to be by information ? atlas'. He "el; to be prosecuted at all events. There would d ,e u ee es s be found persons who would vote for one r et her of all those prep os i t i on , ; end yet how is a n y ma' to form a judgment for which of them t h e re is an aftual majority, if there be no confine ment in terms, mid their opinions are net Wren on same one plain, obvious, specific point. In the preen , s the House has emphatically and distind •tease sed, not only that there shell be a criminal prese esetioe, but that such prosecution shall be by inf orn a:,on. frost who voted that the words do not stand part of his Hon. Frend's motion did not vote for the main question. The House having decided by a rnajerity in favour of the amendment, the resolution mus t stand ; because all you can infer, with regard , to these who were in favour of the impeachment, is, that they voted for the criminal prosecution in pre ference to no prosecution at *IL He deprecated th- Lice of the Houk attempting to :ewe their own s woon decisien, in conseqeenre of a motion made on such a notice, not given more than twenty-four hews previous to making it, when a great many Memhers who voted for the prosecution were g out of town, and after the lapse of a fortnight since the resolution was passed. He thought such a pro. eeeling would isedoed be mon.trous. He begged the is would recolteet alsonhat they could not adopt os h.t measure as that of agreeing to the present :no tiosi witbmn (seising a most dangerous precedent, which went to no less than thisnhat the very same pee wits who bring is forward, may, within the :;race of a fortnight, sr ;whirr the end of hie present sessions ceme to tie House with a sinelar motion, to reverse th ssiole of the pc sceedings which have token place relative to the NolsW Viscount ie qu scion. He t'insigho and hoped, the lieu... would not emin• t. mace rat • retold elous a pr rocs:P.l're; t wee nor:tali necessary the !louse s!-,,oricl. *1 all cases. aft with caeriers, And never cts Any tiring deliberately wrung. Then chanisner. and the eueout and dignity of the Howe s requited that when a resolution had pes•ed, afor etch ; ;rave, uterus. and serious, disclose n, a. had for tw • d.,ys reit. .1 piece on this stibj ..t. it stsup'.‘t sr!, he ligegliter bet- uterine or rescieded.--- • lie xpressed a doubt eesether the crane of Vis coin: Melvilie setts such .as so come withiu liar scope of an ionpeatilment,_ as the cisme of a yawner, and not a state cr.me It was merely the breech of she Aeit of Perliement.-- Veceere Melville had, however, from his own blamable conduct, put himself into a stese of sus picieti. He, from the same conduct, a:so put tee House into a state or ; and it bete red the House perliculaily to 100‘ t') their character, and ant give the people reason to think them light and capricious in their aniduct, by voting gravely and seriously on one night for a criminal prosecution. and in sus Short a time afterwards reseisolieg that resolution in Emcee of anther which had been pro pesed to them before and negatived by a major ity. For these reasi,ns he found himself compelled to give his d cided Opp° ition to the present motion." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ_ IJ ER spoke to the f o ll ow i ng purport *4 In what have to say, Sir. on the present question, I shell dentin the House but very shortly; stn.l Lrist at the present so.unent man pan cularly, in order or remove an error into which most of the lion. Gentlemen who bevespokra have enleavoured to mislead the House, viz. a repposition that there is something in the etude' of bzieging forward this Motion which ought to prevent the House from cooling to a decision. , In order to chew the fallacy of this reasoning, I will only beg leave to state the matter wetly as all the ditletent circumstances took place. On Wed. nescley, the llth of the netnth, the debate first com menced, and on the morning of Thursday, the I eth, the !louse first came to a decision. On Thursday, tie House did not sit, and on the Tuesday or Wed nesday following, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bne.if) g a v e notice, diet is was his intention to make a Motion relative to leaving Mr. Jellicoe's balances out of the crimi al prosecution voted to be instituted ageinst Lord Viscount Melville. The Right Hon. Gentlemen would have brought it forward at that time, but I expressly told him, that the mote I had moldered that business, the more perfeelly and firmly was I convinced that the mode of Impeach- Impeach mentwas far mo re consonant to t h e pr i nc i ples of Justice —better suited to the rank and circum stances of the Noble Lord, and its every respeft better adapted for furthering and else ting the views of this House in the punishment they wished to 1014 on him. Some conversation afterwards tcok place, as to the time when the Right lion. Gentle man would bring forward his Motion ; and I perti elslsirly advised him to defer it, in order that time might be given toeconsider jut thee on the business. The Right I lon. Gent. said, that what he had to move Wilt a mere simple point of leaving out Mr Jellicoe's buaisess from the proceeding ordered. I objected, however, to its being then moved, and stated fully and precisely that I was more and more convinced tee impeachment would b e t h e more proper mode to fadutsne ; and a s I did net th i nk that a real majority voted for the measure of a criminal informa tion, I hoped the House would have a farther op portunity of revising that declaims, and I then look ed on it, that what I said was a plain intimation of my iniesition to bring forward the question. This is the sixth day since the notice was given, and ca t ti dy the lionouranle Gentlemen have no reason to conialeia of the time in which I gave it. It was not • gine when it was thoufht there would be a thus House, it w as w h en a motion of the greatest importance was before the Houk, and when there was as numerous an attendance as any we have had during the session. Such was the na ture of the notice ; and, if you take it merely in the form in which it *as given last nio;ht, you mos: certainly do not argue fairly. Sir, on the ao:)jel of notices, we have Lob some instances during the present Session, when motion, have been brought forward, without any notice at all. I allude particularly to that of the Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Whitbread), oho, after giving notice of a Motion for a civil stiit against Viscount Melville, afterwards brought forward a Mot:on for a Criminal prosecution, without any no tice at all. Ido not mean, Sir, to find fault with Gentlemen for having done so; but I must be al. lowed to express my surprise, that so much stress should be laid on the present Motion being brought forward under circumstances exactly similar. The next point, Sir, for which the lion. Gentlemen contend is, that it is not right to rescind the resolu tion this Session. Now, really, Sir, this is most extraordinary argument. What is the resolution? Why, it is one to rescind another resolution which has already periormed tilt same operation in the course of the present Session. Did no: this very resolution rescind the resolution for the civil suit, and resolve to commence the criminal one Cer tainty it did - rand when I h ear t hi s mo d e of Argo.. ment resorted to, I confess I cannot but express my surprise. I have heard it has been insinuated, or inferred, that that is a stratagem to defeat their • intentions of inftiding a punishment on Viscount Melville. How is this to be done ? Where is the appearance of such a stratagem i The Honoutabie Gentlemen should consider th it this measure is only to substitute another resolution in the place of that which is rescind , d. And what kind of proceeding is it that is m.an . to be adopted ? Sir, the very proceeding 'Mich a few days berme they th night the most proper ; which they themselves originally propo•ed; and which if they hid carried, the other would have had existence. If their own oYin,ons are not altered since, they cannot, with the smallest de7-..e of propriety, charge us with u n f a i rness . I under stand some insinuations have been thrown out that this chan'e is attempted in order to gratify the feelings ci Viscouot ffelville. I know of no such cease. But, supposing it sbroull he more con sonant to the feelings of Viscount Melvill oppos ing it ehoeild he a mode of pew:tasting more ne 4, ! adapted to the privileges of tne Peer .ge, arid bet ter suited• to his rails and circonotances its life, stoe.ly these can oe n, objections in Ma minds of reasce.ahle men, it toe business cau be As ef fected wit coot erecting one injastice. I will not suppose the Hoe. Geodesnen can any of them ever °Nei to it on those particular {rounds. As to the coestion of why Use irapeadiment is preferable to the mode of criminal proseewion I have no dote'.:, th..t it you were to poll the wh•die Howe, they would • by an im,nonse majority think it preferable. The Noble Lord opp.rsite ( L rrd II Petty) has this niggle admitted. that he originally thought that mode preferable : An 1 tivt he gill coma's:wed to d•a so. If that he realy the case, be surely will not insist on the mere point of form, that the more oojeelionable mode should be Fu me i, in exclusi ra t of that which is mare proper. If, according to the arguments chi' have formerly used on the subject. they wee that the impeach ment is m..re constitutional; it theca agree that it is better adapted to the rank and eh:trader of the party ;if t h ey agree that it is mare likely to further and promote the ends and interests of public juice ; then certainly the mere matter of form ongbt trot for a moment to impede so many important and desireable purposes. A Right lion. I.entlernan op posite has expressed a cb‘ubt whether the crime was of that nature as to warrant the proceeding by im peachment, and considered it upon the nice dis nation of its being the crime of the Statesman, and not a State come; I think, Sir, however, that it you take the nature of the tratisetion in Its full extent, the Right Honourable Gentle man's doubts will cease. If we take only the mere breaking of the Ad of Parliament by itself, it would not be sufficient; but if we take the other part of the charge, viz, that Viscount Melville used the public money, not only it breach of the Aft of Parliament, but that he used it for certain secret services, which he won't disclose, then it may be said to be a state crime, and will certainly come within the scope of Impeachment. I can see no reason, Sir, why the House should hesitate to re scind this resolution any more than it has &he others. I have already shewn that other resolu tions have been rescinded in the course of the present Session; and, therefore, those arguments that have been urged against it, on that score, are removed and done away. An argument has been used, Sir. in favour of the criminal prose cution in preference to the impeachment, which I cannot allow to have the weight that seems to be at tached to it in the minds of Gentlemen ; and that is the quickening of the proceeding its point of time. But I can by no means agree to the difference that is assumed by Hon Gentlemen. In the case of my Lord Halifax, I believe the time between the first commencement of the prosecution, and the day of trial, was not less than two years and a half.— I have no doubt, sir, but by the aarvity and industry of my Right Hos:honourable Friend (the Attorney-Geoeral), matt, m:ty he so prepared, as that Viscount Melville may take his trial early in the meeting of Parliament, next Session, which will he nearly as soon as could be done by the other mode of procedure. There has, however, been made another objetion to the impeachment, and that is the great length of time which that against Mr. Hastings took up ; but really, Sir, it is almost im. possible to suppose there can be any similarity be tween them in point of duration. When we retied on the immense mass of evidence there was to wade through in Mr. Hastings's ; that evidence to be colleted in, and brought from one of the most distant parts of the world; wheti we recollect the vast complication of charges. and all the other difticuh circumstances attending that Impeachment, it is scarcely in the nature of things, that the Impeach ment of Viscount Melville can bear any kind of semblance. However. Sir, I would caution the Hon. Gentlemen bow they push that argument too far, because it pr to this, that the House ought moves aril to posood by way 1 Impeachment I .+. ..•11,,..m. a doctrine Which is certainly by no means in favour of the constitution. It is one which I fed lem not likely to acquiesce in, and which I hope and trust the House will be equally jealous of encouraging. If the whole of the long and complicated accootes relative to this transaction are to be gone into, I Hove. Sir, there would be great doubt whether there would,in the common course of justice, be time staffs eerie toget throughtheseand in tleit cese just icec iul.! net be obtained. If, on the conoery, teere is ' chance of its bring such as may aetualle be fini in a day, that is an adietionel ie - gemeit is favour of the Impeachment, and does away ali those whir'. are raised to excee such violent apprehensions of tee alleged length, tile harressment, and the oppression of an Impeachment. Und3r ail these circumstance:, Sir, considering that what h proposed is not intend ed to defeat the stihstential re. 'lotion of the House, but only to adopt what those who opposed it so very lately, thought the most proper and eligible mode of proceeding, I shall certainly give my vote foe the motion nt my Hon. arid Learned Friend." Mr. WHITBREAD said, that it the Right ! lon Gentleman who spoke last had thus streuueusly ex erted Isis eloquence, and ma le the sp.ech he h id just concluded in favour of impeachment; or if he had voted thr it on a former night. there would have been no necessity for his then taking up the time of the House in support of the consistency of their con , duel; nor would ,the Right Hon. Gent. have been reduced to the subterfuges he had this night been ob liged to resort to. He, tor one, was willing to forego the impeachment, which he thought the more consti tutional mode of the two, in order to preserve the consistency and charater of the House, in which was implicated the safety of Parliament, and, in that, the safety of the people. He said, that from the commenceinent of this business, he, and his Hon. Friends, had uniformly argued in favour of the im peechmeet. The Right Hon. Gentleman, as well as the II in. and Learned Gentleman who brought forward this Motion, had both spoken against all cri minal prosecution whatsoever. The present Treasurer if the Navy heal spoken in a very en;mated meaner in favour of the impeachment, and said, he would prefer their cruelty to the mercy of the Amendment, and now they were desirous of involv ee the whole I louse in their inconsistencies. The Right Hon. G mt.( \lr. Pitt) was f o r ewarne d he would be left in a minority ; bat he despised the prediction not recolletting the circumstance of his own House 'wing divided against itself—that is —his owe Cabi net. The Right lion. Gentleman came silo s:1 to the vote, it was then too late to recede, and he must now abide by his condua. The House was attempt ed to be surprised by the metion of that night. Tile itt. Lion Gent. had asked him to ley his hand on his heart and say, whether he did rot believe that the Right Hon. Gentleman preferred the it/setae:l - ? He 'would lay his hand on his heart ( which he did), and say lie believed he did prefer the ies peechment, but that lie wanted. to cat .v it with a high hand, and thought he should be able to get rid of all Lied of prosecusioa what evcr, and tberefire voted as he had s:one.— It has beet, said is what harm will this leach?— Viscount Melville will be prosecuted still. lie wnele ask the Hon. Meta's. r (Mr. Pin), whether those who helJ this leaguege, do not think that Viscount Melville ought net to be tried at all ? The very ord:r in question Was urged as a precedent of iesciading a resolution of the House, the origi nal vote being for a civil process ; but, the cases, he col:ended, were very diderent; the criminal pro• secutien having been adopted in consequence of new fads which came out subsequent to toe vote for a civil suit. The argument of surprise had no weight. Viscount Melville made no such olijeaiiin. On the contrary, in his speech upon the Baur of that House, he referred :o the proceeding, and actually preferred &criminal prosecution. He would really wish to con sult his Lordship's feelings in the choice of the par ticular course; but it was now out of his power. It was said, that to give up Parliementary Impeach ment, would be to give up one of the greatest rights of the Constitution. He would not give it up; and therefore it was that he complained so much of those who opposed the mot ion far that process. He adicitt• ed great delay in the case of Mr. Hastings, but that was no reason for exagg rating al the ceeeetiens to a criminal prosecution, and dwelling upon the case of Lord Halifax, as having occupied two years and a half. The indiansent might he framed before the recess, and the business put in train. We were told that there was nothing in the way in the present case but a mere point of form. That obstacle, however, was a vote of the House, and to rescind it would form a dangerous precedent. Difficulties upon the part of the Attorney General have been stated much to the surprise of the House and of the public. O:her great legal charaeters could see nothing of the kind: but it the Attorney General found difficulties where such men could discover none, in a great national case like the present, in the name of God, let the difficulties be removed by the removal of the person from uJice—(4 hosier : , " hear, hear.") Yes, lie was sure the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman would, not stand in the way of se great a national benefit. That Gentleman, however, had said, that Viscount Melville must be convicted upon trial; a pretty clear proof that he was aware he could prosecute his Lordship with effect. He would not throw a slur upon the Attoraey General, the Court, and the Jury, by supposing the contrary ; and had the proceeding by criminal prosecution infringed the privileges of the Lords, they would no doubt have complained of it. It was objected that it did not appear at what time Lord Melville received tile 10.0001. for which he refused to account ; but he re tained it after the resolution of the House of Com mons; and the Attorney General surely must know how to shape the information to meet that charge. Viscount Melville, he was sure, would have sule. cient protection in the Court of King's Bench; if he did not think so he would not. The present mo tion was recommended as inducing that delay necessary to allay the public indignation ; but he did not think it so great as to preclude an impartial trial, while he leered it might have many bad effeets, particularly that of bemm• ing indifferent on the public mind. It was said, that the Minister WAS placed in a dilemma, by the 43 Members, who are the supporters of one of the Ca binet Ministers, voting against him; but the Cabe net differences were not to be settled in that House. The 43 Members alluded to had, however, aged very eoesieteady, and should have his vo:e.— It was a cations circurasteece iLebei.b..sAneeeei Minister, wl.o turned out the last, and since Ohba, with him; that w!vthir it was an addition cihty to st:ength, or of imbecility to imbewili , . set the ti , i;on or two bullrishes, he • Id not stand oda out him. If, however, we were 1.. have All impeach ment, re si:ould be gl id to know who were to ba the man igen? Were they to be those who 1.e./1M to de. feat all prosectitien, or s.iose rigtea.:y moved for Intiseachment ;or was it to be a mixed bu,iens, all which a few of the latter, • Apparent riff narrow, were to gee. al, appearance to eie majority, who only a ge! from compulsion? Lot wi.at would, how ever, be the writ, and should one of them, in whoever ,- .ampany he should be place.!, he ik use ever: Grin to brin 7, the matter to a convi ct . issue; aii• tra;ted that there would be a call at the House, as proposed by his Hon. Fr;end, General LENNOX ceneeivel that Lord Mel ville would be very improperly brongbt to trial bee fore a Jury df Westrniieter. From -he si:uation la which His Majesty ha,l placed him, ea had a right, according to Magna Cliarro, he It right to be tried by his Peer., a t t h e proseciition ,f the Horne of Commons. It was right that the limy! sae n!J be always able to carry its complaint against aM ni ear, • whom it supposed to have aged incorrediv, before the highest tribunal in the co +wry. As t' e At. torney Genero!, with.lot attaching any ..lame, Of throwing• any reffeetion repo% his conduB, he neat he naturally anti ius to save a Member of ea s/mi nistration of which he was himself a par- Upon these grounds, he moat vote for an impeachment. The AfTOIINEY GENEitA L did not con. sider the allusions made to himself as fiaterrog to him or implying censure. The Attorney Ocarral, at an individual , coul 1 n tt be in cootie mplari in in a ca,e of such magnitude. The idea of his integrity depended much upor. the nonce and circum stances of the times, and we hid raised for our selves 'n the administration of justice so high a charafter tor inter icy ; he did not t: irk it ought to be rsked in a prosecution that might fail.— He had certainly sad thot to stud Viscount Mel ville to trial, was to send him to certain convietion ; but he meant the conviCtion of I , :gal guilt, in con niving at Mr. t'rotter's using the public money for Private profit. Of that he had legal evidence in ViSCO9tit hlelvilie's admissions before the Cum. rs ssir'nen of Naval Inquiry. It tat then were ascertained to he the oily point, there w mid be no difficulty in the CAW; but, if the. Gen tlemen opposite did not exp.:a semet.hiag more might be proved, he appealed to thin whether they might not pn:sibl , ,t coacrive that Vi.colint Melville had been alre itiy sullic;ently p nnishe i ?--es His difficulties did not respell the bringing of count Melville to cneviaion. He did not want ad vice as to Os • lee I mode. tie only orear-d tp know the points ne wiii:h :or, was to prosecute, and not in what* i..anner. Hon. and beamed Gen tleman (Mr. Bond) thought that Mr. Jellkn's case sl.ould be left amt of the prosecution. There may be others, a nich, in the rernion of the I-I use ought to be omitted. He had abet, asked 'wile. ther he should proceed atvainst Mr. Trivet:: and twigs acidosis, against Women Mete Me If or' ivies the, he might call a Member of :hat H n,e to prove the words spoken by Viscount Melville upon its floor? a step. which, he fared, he tou•J not take, without permission of the House. fh. se were not legal points. involving legal forms ; and he !toped be might solicit the wishes ef the H uuon them. If he were precluded from any of those sources of evidence, it might be difficult to prove with effed against Lord Viscount Melville. A difficulty would also occur, in laying the rears. He could not proceed in Middles** fir an offence committed in the cite of London. Thu. if he should lay the to the Moo it. in Middlesex, and it should appear up es trial that the mis application of it by his Lerdship was at the Bank, in the city of London, he must fail in the prosecution. Gentlemen might think this all plain sailing, tot the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. ‘VhitbreaJ) had not beat his accurate mind to these nice points, or he would not have spoken with so much confidence.— These difficulties, par:icalarly that of the ve , ries would not occur in an Imrachment, which would be drawn more loosely. It was not a light mat ter to fail in a prosecution of that kind ; and should it be finally would certainly surround himself with all prosi'u!e care and legal assistance; but still he must sty, that a mere menosyllaiile, and things which the HOMO would think ridiculous, might defeat it. The case of Lord Halifax WAS a solitary instance, and ought not to be drawn into precedent ; his Lordship, as Auditor of the Exchequer, being at tl , e time an officer of die court in which he was tried. At, to the management et :he impeachment, he owned, for oar, he thought th :go i 1 faith of the bus;ness would be preserved, by putting the lion. Metuber (Mr. Whitbread) and bin Friends in she same Oa . e in which they would have been, had their ON igitisi mo tion for an impeachment been carried, sad he would leave them to frame the c..arge, and have the entire management of it. Mr. FOX—" Aftet the able rn mner in which the question has been argued by my Hon. Friend, I do not think it necessary to enter into it at great length; I think, Sir, that it is a que-tion. many vi ors, of as great importance as ever came be.ore the Holm. Upon the points of it upon which 1 mean to touch I shall begin with the siihje.ft of notice. I think it a question that required notice. but I think alsr, that it would be as well. perhaps better, that there had been nu notice at all than Lint given yest rd iv. And that any notice at all has b:eii given, I can only attribute to a consciousness titptas attempt was to be made to carry a poi: t, se hla repaired notice, while it was resolved to give no notice, from which any advantage could possibly be derived. The Honourahle Gentleman (Mr. Pitt), in his enumeration of the proceedings in this case, is eery minute in dates. It looks as it, finding that fe was all wrong, a discovery which he must have made the moment he awoke the nen mornings afar he re.isted the Motion ot my Hon. Friend—(Mr. Wes, bread's siisesen lir ea Lapeer intesill —be fah an musks. ty to re,fair the error, and that not a momen - nee" to be lost. From his speech, therefore. one ses:uld infer that he has thought ft necessary to spec?ue f oe t• a delay ; but. however that may stews It I. not really the fait; for a whole week', rellenion h as heen necessary for him to find out that the pie ing adopted is unconstiiutemal, eel _ Ar langero as