The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1824-05-07 00:00:00

T •j ? ,; • • i t C ~I i i I 1 tr , ) t him competent, without reference to any religious opinions. Do Ministers thiek the Americans deficient in talent. shremloesa, and ' ability? Were not the public affair. , of America as well conducted at those of Spain and Portugal. Ile would not make any com.l perieris, but he thought himr affairs as well directed as those even of this country. In America every facility, every opportunity, were given to all of obtaining those offices to which their ability and talent gave them a claim. Most not these circumstances ulti mately give the Americaes an aitvantage over us? There was a statement put into his hard eesterday, train authority on which he (mid rely, that an individual was appointed to a situation in the Excise—!hit lie went to take possession of his employment, which fie 'erected would emetic himself and his family from milery. when he was told be was a Roman Catholic, and couhl not fill the situation. How different was this from the policy of the United States. Here was one instance; and if there was 410 other, this ought to be sufficient for an inquiry. This could not be a siegle fart ; it WAS of course extended to othurs. It may be asked. whit were the mils which resulted frotn the system? He would tell them. the miseries and wretchedness which are known to vie* year after year—the blond isliich had been spilt—the suspension% of the Habeas Corpus Act—the Insurrection Bills, which were so repeatedly called for—these were the fruits of the system ; and would any man with his eyes open, continue such a apices as this ? Ministers should act upon the ancient principle : they should give a general eligesility to all. With regard to opinions concerning religion, they were of a particular nature formerly ; the present times were differ. ent ; these opinions • should be so. Ile admitted, certain virgule teens were passed when the power and the atrocities of those who professed the Catholic religion were bitch as to render these laws necessary; bat he begged to ask if these institution,' were now necessary, when the dangers against which they were enacted are 'moved. Great changes had taken place. There eras a time wheo these laws were necesaary ; they were no longer so. As to the tome of the Roman Catholic Chur4 at present, it would be an abuse of the time and patient* of the Bow to speak ; it had fellen into a state of complete insignifialisee. It was absurd to eeprose this Church would interfere with the loterests of others. If any man had his eyes open, he would see the varietal points of this question; be would ask if Ministers would not try at least tit a chance of obtaining a benefit ? They should try the chance eta chanter'. In his opinion it would not be a chance; improve. meet would be a matter of certainty. Any change from the system of tire and meted that 'prevailed in Ireland must 'be for the better. It was commonly mid that a man's house was his castle. That was particularly the case in Ireland. A man was there Merced to eonecrt his house into a castle; he was obliged to thrtify it, lest it should be carried by storm. Ministers were in the habit of deploring the almenteeship prevalent in Ireland; but would any man reside with his family in Ireland that could live 'out of it? No man in that country could enjoy his pro perty in peace; and what was the value of property without ;owe? If Ministers acted with that honesty for which, from their conduct latterly, he was disposed to give them credit— if they went qn in theit present course, he did not doubt im. pertain changes would take place in that country. If these changes wee, not the consequences of their measures, he would assist Ali nietere He for one would arm them 'nil powers anet means to censh those who were not ilieposed to avail themselves of the ad vantages offered them. The conduct of the Irish would Dot io his opinion, deserve this; they were se intelligent and sensible race. and were cash acquaieted with their own intennts ; they would hail this change with pleasute. Why should not the case tat Ireland be at with effects Meath': to t h ose known to follow in the United States, in Fiance, Builds, the Netherlands, Wirtemberg ? In all these centuries there was content; all these countries enjoyed the blessings of peeve and tranquility ; they were satisfied with their liberal metitutioes, which they consider as the grestestblessines , Let the same blessing', be given to thepeople of Ireland. If lie had a bad °pinto" of the Irish Government it was because he Was aware of its bad seers. WIIS not the situation of Ireland a sufficient ground for inquiry into the state of Ireland ? When the situation of that country was kept sight of, it was impossible for any man, who hand and heart wished for the welfare of Ireland, to object to his inquiry, or to the result to be expected from it. Ile was aware of an oh -made which was said to be in the way of this measure. This ob stacle he would remove. This argument was not true. He alluded to the coronation oath, on account of which it was said no change could be made. This was a libel OM the House; the King and the Parliament could make any changes that were supposed to be fw the public good. They could pass an Act for any such purpose. 'They did pate; them when it was supposed rcemsery. The King and legislature had a decided right to any _hang they thought proper. These alterations had then nude from day to day, and would be made again. The amertion, therefore, was not warranted; there was also another objectione-he was told the Chinch had property, and hail a right to enjoy and ponces it. Here, as an individual, he would toe leave to ask • question—who were the Church upon a former 0C.37400 ? He had asked the question of the Right Hon. Gentle man opposite, but be received no answer. He would not allow this argument to be valid until this question was answered. There was also one or two qttestions besides which he would take the li bet:, of asking—was the Church the clergy, or did it include the c eimunity ? When an army was spoken of, the Officers were not Teems' Wale; the whole milltary community was included. In like weeper the Church was not the Clergy alone; it comprehended the religious community. If this interpretation were admitted, goy, he would ask, ter for what particular object WWI this Church lieeeleiebment paid and kept up by Government? What busiriees was there for them ? He, for his pert, had not the least objet. tem to state. Ile wished Great Britain was like America io this respect; but he did taut wish to interfere with long m -11'61;44.4 feelings and practices: but he would ask, why did his eoantry low its Parlisnient ? Why did it change the Catholic our the Protestant religion ? They all knew what was done before tee time of Mary, and what was done after. Now things were up and down according to the inclination and power of Parliament. If they willed it they might make another change. If the people wished the Catholic religion to be established, the Parliament woeld have a right to do it, as they bad done before. Why was the Protestant Church supported and established ? Because tt was (deemed most beneficial. It wee for this reason it was preferred to the Catholic; and he would ask 31inhtters if the Protestant Church was not productive of these advantages—if its intentions were not fulfilled, why Mould this Church be supported ? With respect to the state of religion in Ireland, King an idol that earned considerable influence with the ascendancy party . in Ireland. would have conferred the blessings of civil and religious liberty on the pen ele if he were able. He would have placedehe people of Ireland a is:Scotland on the same footing, and in the same situation. This was evident from a copy of his letter to the Scotch Parliament, in which he desires them to pass an Act establishing such a religion iss would be most agreeable to the majority . of the people. Ile havadone the same in Ireland. it the siege of Limerick had lasted a few weeks longer. %Could not this ar ran gs m en t be satisfactory t. the people of Ireland—would it not bethe policy of this country to g•ve the Irish their rights? This would be much wiser and better t. so to be jealous of religious opinions, from which no danger retail be apprehended, and placing the whole people at the mercy 0: a few families. The Ministers will not deny this to be their fluty, unless they affirm it to be for the benefit of the many to be tided by the few. Are not the tietiple of Ireland the many, and it rs file their benefit to be ruled by a limited few ? lie would say, ii•st as we were now returning to liberal principles in trade and cinema - cc, we should also return to liberal principles in legislature toed morals. It was not consistent with good morals to deprive so large • body of the people of their just rights. It was not consist. with own interests. Was it, lie would ask, politic. was it te :voile to keep the people under the yoke ? For 'keeping the Irish in their present state in their country, possessing so many advan tare% cersielerieg them contrary to the principles of law and good sense, was keeping them under the yoke. el as such a state henc e:eel e Would it not be our own interest to suffer our property and cepr el. now stage sting in England, to flow in that country as if it flowed here ? Such conduct wan• not juet ; and he would appeal t that Book, by the precepts of which they were all bound, the t :sets. of which no Christian would fiery, which teaches to Cite . 'arts that they should do to others as they would wish to be done by ; Met book which declared that rakes should called to account fur the manner in which they used their power. Ile would ask if 11 in stern, who were the Magi:unites of the land, oishel to do by others at they would be dune by ? if such was their real wish, they el o told not keep Ireland in a state of deetraealon, they should not Leap six millions of men degraded mitt oppressed, until a change was effected, as it certainly would, by violence and force. There •a, a certaM point to which human nature would bear; beyond tots it could Lot. Ile would appeal to the House, and ask those who heard him, if *keyhole 'rem changed would they as degraded Csitholics be suede - id. If they could place their hands upon their harts and say they would, he would be silent. He would main. tap again and again, that as long MI this system was suffered to mum, the same evil, would continue. If he sueceedei in making, himself understood, lie had showed dhoti rights to which Ireland I was entitled, end it would be wise and politic to do her justice. In the conturlcretiem of this, he was aware of the ninny change, which took piece in thy population of Ireland. The greatest eeattge, had perhaps Liken place sincethese Acts had passed. According to the calculation of Bishop Boulter, the proportion of Protestants to Catholics wee as four to one. This proportion incressol. The Carliol, though neither a.ssioed nor enter ...id, linetrue much more isouteM , is. The citing!' einlld be easily ECl:JUnted for; we warred with nature. We coule, net by any means Aunt of externiinetion destroy the eights of the pent:let it was imposeible. Therefore this change in the numbers, when More we, an establishment protected by laws, euppomed by every primibie means aid arlyeetaire that wealth and power code give—to mimeos. which there were 1,23 U benefices, 4 archbishops, 18 Wehrle,* (Making altoether ree, 33 deems. 108 dig oitarieits. Pd vicars, 1111 rural deans, with others, making 312 indivi duals, constituting what he would call the staff' of the Church__ when, under these circumstances, a change was found to take place, this of itself Was a ground of inquiry. It might possibly be of use to support this numerous body if they had fifteen or twenty ,millions of people to superintend ; hut this staff of 512 had only to watch over half a million of persons ; and thus there WA 8 sergeant to every ten. What could bethe result of such SI state ? The present population of Inland was seven Milian': de-re was one million of Protestants, of these halt were Dissenters, tee remairtieg six millions were Catholics. Ile would repeat what was said with so much propriety and truth b Adam '; meth—" If yes wish to make a clergymen idle and use less, pay him well; if you want to have him active end induetrious, provide him with tare IWCC/litifit , ... Stich was the result in Ireland. Notwithetand iog this staff of (.12 individuals, the Established Church did not keep pace with the proportion ; in the timed' Bishop limiter, the proportion was then emir to one—it was now fourteen to one, and thus while the Church wee assisted by its numerous and well paid ate;at, the Catholics had increased in a great propmition. Ile be lieved his ealculatines were correct. lie sowed Ministers, if by any labour or pains he could obtain more exact and correct state. usenet, he would not spare himself. Ile had received three letters from some of the most influential persons in Ireland, and they all concurred in stating, that no private individual could tell the of the Monne of the Established Church of Ireland. 111? his ealculatinsa, the Church poverty, if rented out, would' produce two millions and a half. The amount of 'acres in Ireland was fourteen millions; of these two-elevenths were in the haisels of the Church. He used the calculation of Wakefield ; if the two-de/Nubs were in the hands of the public, or were used as private individuals need property, and let out for rent, it would produce two millions and a halt He did not care how this land was distributed, whether it was given to A I or ll—to the Bishop or the Bishop's son ;it still belonged to the Church, and the person to whom it was given depended upon the ' Church. lie feh perfectly satisfied when he seated this sum at two millions and a half. He took the value at a moderate rate ; he took the average ot 35 parishes, let at the present time for 8001. per annum. Ile valued the 1.189 benefices at 5001, per annum ; this, when added to the two millions and a half, would amount to three millions two hundred thousand pounds. • Notwithstanding this wealth—notwithstanding the star, the Church had lost ground, was loving it, and would continue to lose it until it ceased to exist. There were gentlemen around him who could state there were earishes without a single Protestant. in the county of Wa settle/el, in 1733, the proportion of Catholic to Protestant was 40 to 1 ; it was now loft to 1. In some benefices there was not OM Pro testant in others there were two or three. There was another mis. fortune attending this state of things; the cemimissioners of educe• lion had removed the schools from these benefices ; they laid, what , is the use of schools since there are not scholars ? This was a bad system. There was a time when the most hardened sinner felt the comfort and necessity of religion. It was at this period the Roman 'Catholics and others stepped in and gained advantages over the Protestant church. In addition to the benefices he had counierated there were 600 curacire. These, when added to about 1,000 clergy. men, made up a staff of from 1.500 to 2,000. Having thus taken a view of this numerous and well-paid establishment, he would now consider the Catholic establishment, by means of which that bode had so much increased. There were 26 Bishops, including the Warden of Cialway. These generally reserved a principal parish, the duties of which they performed with as much assiduity as any parish priest. Their incomes &molted to from 3001. to 7001. a-year. I'hc highest number of these individuals was 26, being, be ad.. mined, four more than the Protestant Bishops. The Catholic priests ainounted to 2,500. If we allow 1,500 clergymen for half a million of Protestants, we must allow 2,500 priests for six millions. The income ,of these latter was slender; it was difficult so • ascertain its amount ; he believed it was barely safficiens to allow them to live. They were as charitable as their means would admit of. It was by these means, and the assiduous manner in which they performed their duties, and not by their weal;h and Atha, they supported their establishment. It was found that Protestants had also decreased in Scotland. Far this circumstance there must ber some peculiar reason. If these were facts, as he had no reason us doubt, an inquiry should be im mediately entered into. Respecting same other points connected with this subject, there were authorities on which he could rely. He would mention that of Warburton, who was as much attached to the established religion as those who were better paid. Hess's, "It'hert there are several religions existing in a State, the State should naturally ally itself with the largest." The Roman Cacho. lies of Ireland were the vast majority : let the Hovernment then ally itself to them. Paley was of opinion that it was the duty of the Magistrate, in the choice of the religion which he establishes, to consult the faith of the nation rather than his own. He adds, .• It Dissenters from the Establishment become the majority of the people, the Establishment itself ought to be altered or qualified." He would therefore call upon Ministers and the Noose to act according to the o;inieris of Warburton, Paley, and Adam Smith, There was another topic to which he would now allude—he meant the manner in which the duty was performed ; and here there was • great deficiency as to the ministers of the Established Church. This ought to be remedied. In the first place, we had the power to compel them to a change of conduct ; we could deal with them as we deal with the clergy in England ;--and here, whether in censure or approval, he did not wish to make any invidious remarks on the establishment in England ; he meant to confine himself to Ireland. He found, amongst 3,244 parishes, there belonged to the Bishops 1.391, to the Crown 1,393. Now if the King appointed the Bishops, he also possessed the patronage of these Bishops; and he did not see, since we were uniting and consolidating livings, why we should not also unite and consolidate the dioceses, and make four Bishops do all the duty. The Crown might, by this means, have the patranage of 1.314 livings; there were in lay hands 367, in the gi ft of the University 21 , impropriate without churches 95. Why was not the duty done ? He was fear. ful it would never be pet formed if power were not used. Non-resi dence was one of the evils to be chiefly deplored. Of the benefices there were— Resident 7 58 Non-resident by exemption HI - I)itto by dispensation - - 243 ‘Vitliout stating for what - - In Miscellaneous . - - - M) Total - The Catholic clergy were all resident, and what was the result ? In 30 or 40 years they increased in a wonderful manner, more particu larly in Waterford and Lismore. An Honourable Member for Kerry had stated in his place, that he was conscious of a great reduction of Protestants in the parishes ; in same there were but three or four Protestants; in one district there were four Clergymen resider t, non-resident 19: nine Vicars resident, non-resident 19; and mined these Clergymen possessed, from returns laid on the table, pluralities, in which parishes were doubled up ins sue. prising manner. Under these circumstances he did not see how any ISletnber could wonder that the Catholics increased, whilst the Protestants did nut. Such a result was not to be wondered at. In Waterford, according to the statement of Mr. Wakefield, there were, in 1786. 188,62.5 Catholics, and 1.600 Protestants. Since that period, the Protestant population had diminished to Kat.). and the Catholic population increased to 82,000 souls. Now, there were for these Protestants fifty benefices. (Hear.) This monstrous fact called aloud tor investigation, even at he was not furnished with another reason for demanding an inquiry. These fifty clergymen, he contended, had acaucely any duty to perform, and yet they were placed there in benefices, to the increase and inde ed the very ex matte of which the Catholic population were compelled to con tribute. He wished to say nothtng of the past, but here was a case—here was an instance of gross and scandalous abuse, which matte it incumbent upon them to institute an inquiry ; and surely, with a people so circumstanced as the Irish, who had so long been subjected to the most rigorous treatment, a conciliatory system might now be adopted. (Hear.) An inquiry might be granted, which however it was to terminate he knew not, but the institution of which would at least convince the people of Ire land thut their interests, however late, would not be neglected. ((Cheers.) lie wished now to advert to the disparity of parishes in Ireland. Ile had been furnished with a list of parishes in the north-west quartet of Cork.—that part of the country the House would rec.:Beet, which was particularly disturbed. He would not, however, assert that these disturbances were attributable entirely, though there werecertainly mainly, to be refereed to the tithe system. In the pariah of Hanyhooly (a laugh), in which there was a t church, no Protestant, or a single Clergyman, the parishioners were called on to pay tithes to the amount of 7001. a year. (Hear, hear.) I He believed that the opinion of every Catholic was, that every far thing thus taken front him was little less titan robbery. ( leas) Such would be his own opinion if he were placed in the same situa tion. (Ilene.) When he visited Ireland, he had no notion that a system of this nature could have been curried to so atrocious an ex tent. (Hear). Ile had a list of several parishes, with the names of which he would nut trouble the House, seeing they were most formidable in the pronunciation, but they were all similarly cir cumstanced. Innumerable cases of this kind existed. M'itit re gard to pluralities, he considered that a most serious question, and he was quite sure that even the Church of England could not keep its ground unless pluralities were abolished. The success of the Church mainly depended upon the abolition of these pluralities. S too with respect to Peers' privileges, which were not unfrequently csncedal to those who were utterly unknown to the Peer to whom they were appointed Chaplain. There was one instance at least to which he must refer, as a specimen of the mode in which plura lities were granted in Ireland :—he Rev. R. Alexander was Arch deacon of Down, Register oldie Consistorial Court, and held four liv ings with extensive glebes. While on. this subject he might be pennons' to thank his Hight Hon. Friend, the lion. Baronet on the door (sir J. Newport), for supplying him with an authority in re ference to what had fallen from the Attorney-General ter Ireland (Mr. Plunkett) on a tanner occasion, if, indeed, it were now ne cedary to reply to what he then considered a very frivolous argu ment. Pitted Dartinoues (he queued front liumett's History.) said, " We hear much of the p overty of some of the clergy, nothing of the wealth of the others. And here he might be permitted to. digress and to state that the three Archbishops who died last in Ireland possessed at their death the immense sum of 80,01101.! (Hear.) This might be an exaggeration. lie had, however, re., teived the information from authority, upon which he was inclined to rely; nail, indeed, he had every reason to expect that day pro. b.ttest at the wills of those three Archbishops (a laugh) ; so that t. his intemation was incorrect, at all events his anxiety to obtain us turue knowledge on this subject could no; well be questioned. Now from !his statement of the riches of individunl members of the Church of Ireland arose this simple consideration—whetter they were to permit such a system of famine and desolation as had pre. railed ss lately in Ireland to be mitigated by the interference of the English people, whose charitable exertions he commended, to bel increased too by the detnands mede upon those very people of Ire land, by those very men who dying left behind them such an accu-1 mutation of property obtained from the industry of that very peo• odes (Ilear.) But he had wandered unintentionally from the quo tation of Lord Dartmouth. He went on to say, • take it on the whole, no Christian church is better provided for than the Church of England ; and if the lands of the Dams, who were no better use than the Abbots of old (a laugh), were distributed among the poorer clergy ; and if Bishops would tepid the true interests of the ('hurch, rather than that their daegliters should get well off (loud laughter), there would then be teasel no just reasoning to complain of the poverty of clergviner. I" Hear, bear, beer.") These were the sentiments of a 'ray ; (hear, hear,) these opinions, however, but ill. accorded with the opinions of Mow: who looked upon the present state of things as above all improve. fluent. This was a state of things demanding inquiry, but how did it stand ? Was Mr. Alexander content even with this list of pre ferments ? No,—the stator the church was not contented with dis pensing these favours upon hint. Though he would not allow this tntlividual so uselessly and shamefully to occupy such livings, it wns true this individual kept four curates, but this was only Ten. Bering his contlitet more obviously exceptionable. But he had fur ther, in the diocese of Ossory two livings, and in Cashel he hail another union, which the Archbishop contended could not be divided without legislative interference, and at I;iltuneock (a laugh) he had another living. There was the Reverend Dilliert Austin, too, who hail the union of five vicarages united in 17111. There was another Clergyman, the Rev. John Ilayley, who hadseveral livings, and was Dean of Killaloe. lie was aware that he had stated many points for the inducement of the House to join with him in voting for this motion; hut there, was one point more. An Act of Parliament made it imp native on every incumbent who was two years on his living to erect a gide-house. Now he had a het of livings, in which, foe ten, and even twenty rem, livings had been held, sad net •cottage erected on the lan4. This was nigent on the re of the Bishops, a nd this 'negligence alone j egl ustified the inquiry Ow which it was his intention to move. Ile had heard too, within* few days, that the Bight Hon. Gentlem an (Mr. Gaul- I burn) had brought forward his measure to compel clergymen to re. j side on their livings ; even within a few days too he had been in. j formed, and he expected very speedily to be furnished with doett., omits on the subject, that an Irish Bishop . had actually presented two livings to two clergymen, whose avneatione made it impossible for them to reside on those livings. ((dear.) There was a dream-! stance which had occurred very.recently, and which tended, in his! mind, very much to inculpate his Memoir's ( government. The 1 Hon. Baronet below him (NUJ. Newport) hail moved for a return connected with thefirst Fruits in Ireland, seed which ought not. in ! his mind, to have been refused. The l'hir.ch of Ireland sat twice et nearly three times as richly endured as the Church of Eng. I land. When the lint fruits were established in England,; the tenth was reserved to the Crown; but die tenth was, not reserved in Ireland—it was not canoed there. This was effect. ed through the interference of Dean Swift. By statute the First! Fruits were not to be revalued in England ; whereas, in Ireland they were expressly permitted to be revalued front time to time. Now what could the House think of the return to the First Fruits officer fur the 10 Bishop's of Ireland for the last II years—what would the House think of 30,00eif , or 11,9e0/. 2 —that would be a mo. I derate calculation—but 5ai43,0110/. No; 91W. (hear) was the emu same received ; while in land, for the SUe Period- the receipts exceeded 21,000/. In a c untie three times I z.s valuable. there wax sixteen times the sum received from that richly-endowed church. But it seemed that there was the opinion of the Atter ney-lieneral, that these First Fruits were not re-valuable. There was, howey ,er the opinion of Mr. Allen to the contrary, and seve ral letters had passed between the Government Secretary and Mr. S. Mason, a Commissioner of First Fruits, highly creditable to the latter gentleman. Of Pile. Pluton he knew nothing ; but this opinion he hesitated not to exprames, and a perusal of the corres pondence justified the assertion. There was another subject to which he was anxious to call the attention of his Majesty's A ttor.! ney-General for Ireland. In a book printed at Oxford in 1667, on the State of Church Government, he found it clearly lad down, that ! tithes were revaluable at the pleasure of the King—that they , might be abrogated at his pleasure. Such they were conai. l dered by the declaration of Henry the Eighth ; and when he was charged with spoliation by the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman opposite, it was worth while just to consider whether the assertion bad any authority to rest upon. j He did not wish it to be conceived that his motion related to pounds, shillings, and pence, although that was ‘ in his opinion, a matter I of some importance ; but it was tot question. still more Important, whether we should grain the Catholics of Ireland those civil righte, which, as Christians, we ought to grant them, and shire' he thought would be most beneficial to the starring, and therefore diseontented 1 people of that country. He did not think the theme would do its ditty, now that it was aware of the cause of their miseries, if it (lid 1 not remove them. He had shewed, if this one grand evil were' gotten rid of, all the minor ones would follow its course. Ile had shewed that, notwithstanding every encouragement was given to the Church, the Catholics were rapidly increasing. Ile had shewed that the Clergy were negligent, and that the Bishops had not done their duty, and that they never would do their duty, unless the House made them. It was Impossible, therefore, that any Member could say that the subject did nut call for any inquiry. Although his mind was made up as to the best mode, he would leave it to the House to decide how such inquiry should be made. He would therefore move, that it is deemed expedient to inquire whether the Church Establishment of Ireland be not more than coma:llo*watt with the services performed, both as relating to the numbers employed, and to the income received. Mr. STANLEY begged to apologise in venturing to address the House on the . present subject. Ile commended the temperate nature of the mo tion which the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) had gubniitted to the flange, but he thought there would be great dif ficulty in showing grounds for agreeing with him in what he had a ated relative to the established church of Ireland. He (Mr. Stan ley) could not but consider that the time and circumstances under which the motion was brought forward, were calculated to render it peculiarly unpopular. Its tendency was to lower the authority of the E,tablished Church. under the idea of allevirting the des. tresses of a suffering people. Hostility to any church he would ; and in prejudice, if prejudice it could be called, in fa vour of Ireland, he would yield to no man in the House. For years, the strongest di ens had been niade, partly thtongh the pub lic press, and pat tly through private channel", to cast a stigma on the Estahished Church. l'he private feuhe or crimes of its men. bent had been dragged forward, and unfairly employed to throw an odium on the church to which they belonged; and he would yen. tore to say, that if one half of the pains which had been taken to exec reflections on such periling, had been exerted to bring forward its virtuous member*, that church would stand above the boldest attacks which calumny itself could make upon it. Ile would as sert, that the clergymen of the church of England were equal to any other set of men whatsoever., in the faithful discharge of their public and private duties. He wished as much as any one to ameliorate the condition of Ireland. Ile felt deeply for the interest of that country, not for its sake alone, but because it was so blended with this, that the prosperity of Ireland was the prosperity of En and,—the difficulties of Ireland were the difficulties of England-and the misery of Ireland was equally the misery of England. He should grieve indeed if he were mi.. taken in the opinion lie entertained, that every individual in the House was deeply anxious for the permanent good of Ireland. But the more unanimous they were on thissubject, the more careful they ought to be to inquire into the best niethods for her relief, lest their kindness should prorate the end cruelty, and their gifts de struction. He did not wish to canvass the arguments which hail been brought forward to show the difference between church pro perty and other property. He would not say that in all cases the Church property ought to be held sacred, but he would say that as much caution should be required in touching it as in other tea's. He could, however, with great satisfaction say, that no such temp tation—that no such necessity existed now. He would not state that circumstances had not occurred which had modured, and were calculated to produce, increased violence on the ether side; but the Catholic Church was now a seeded one,—time had given it sub'. lity, and its rights of property were secure. No Minister dare, and ro one in icehouse could, Ropiest the extinction of that church. He was fully convinced, and he - hoped the House would be of the same opinion, that the measure, instead of assisting, would injure the people of Ireland, and be detrimental to their interests. Is it to be considered as a means of concretion ? He would ask, what was to be gained from it, and how it was to let/cure this &deur taffe ? For the first time attacks were made on the Este. bliehed Church, and under the specious pretext of serving the Catholi sef Ireland. It is proposed to give the !Catholics, not a concession, but a triumph, and to increase at itnosity by a par. tial success. For the feelings which were entertained towards the Established Church by the Irish Catholic*, he would refer the House to a pamphlet lately published by a distinguished Member of their Church, and which hied been since acknowledged by the Catholics as stating the sentiments of their whole body, but its gen. timents he did not believe were those of all who professed their faith. It was time that the House of Commons should show the Church of England that it was not neglected by them, and that they were not indifferent to its interests ; to show that this was not a period when its enemies could rush in and seize some of what they called its spoils ; to show that the legislature would not sanc tify oppression ; and to show that the oppression of one party tested not be necessary to the protection of the other. Ile liked toleration, but he would be always anxious to give a primary influence to ore religion alone. Ile would ask, was the motion to be considered as one of political advantage, or is it to take off a burthen thorn the Irish peasantry which they are unable to bear ? It wag clear to him that it must be indifferent to the Irish peasant whether lie paid les. tithes and 20s. to the landlord, or whether he paid to the land lord the whole 325., for such would be the case. It was certain that this tax was paid by the landlord and not by the peasant, yet it wag to relieve the peasant that the motion was proposed, to take from him a burthen, and to enable him to rise from the state of di. gradation into which he bail souk. There who had not seen the lower climes of the high could have no idea of this state, and he ( hie. Stanley) knew that it would be most advisable to rouse them f 't—froni that want, and deprivation. and callous feeling which a long acquaintance with misery always brings; and to imetove and educate them would, he thought. be an object worthy the consider ation of Parliament. If it were proved that the tithes were paid by the consumer, then he could not conceive bow the present nee. non could relieve the Irish pat, and if they were paid by the land lord, the conclusion must be equally °be' lf he were not miss taken, and he believed he wan not, the Irish had four guest w ems to complain of—want of resident gentry ; want of capital ; want of employmem s aces wan4ai edaseatiun. The Honourable liea tleman (.11 r. Hu we) had observed, that there were only three Into lerant nations in a state of wretchedness, but he had failed to show how the observation applied to the present question. Ile had drawn a lamentable picture, aid perhaps be had not overdrawn it, of the state of some of them ; hut the present ease was of a different on. lure. There were throughout Ireland a class of' Protestant Gentle. men, correct and upright, necessarily men of education. compelli. ble, and now compelled to reside on their livings, and obliged, by the laws of common decency, to live soberly, honestly, and re spectably. Although he (Mr. Stanley) admired the main principle of the Honottrable hlruber (Mr. Hume) in its fullest event, he contended that his motion would he one which, if carried into effect, would prove most injurious to I. '.and. He would refer to the work he had before alluded ma and which, like almost all ethers on the eubjese, was tilled with exaggerated statements. It was impossible to follow the Honourable Member for .lbeeleen through the whole of his arguments, hut there were one or two he would notice, which referred more immediately to the ;owned enormous receipts of the leatabliehel Church in Irelaed. It was stated in the pamphlet which he had quoted, that, in the various ' dioceses, there were 1309 livings, averaging to each MM. a year ; and that in the diecese of Cloyne there were 50 benefices, amount ing in all to the sum of forty thoueand pounds a-year. Ilea it should be recollected that this latter calculation was taken from notoriously the richest diocese In Ireland, soil taken sno, at a period when rents were at the highest price. The Hon. OCIISfrDILTI had diminished his calculation relative to the former subject ; and haul said that he belieeved the average to he Well. instead of 001. a year. He (NIT. Stanley) haul made many inquiries relative to this point, from several Irish Clergymen and others; anti he had understood from the best authorities that the fair average was but 2501. a year, instead of 5001. He had received similar information from a learne I and txcellent Prelate. tie Bishop of Limerick who had confirmed the statement as it ap plied to hit own diocese, and who had said that he believed it was pretty nearly the Sallie all over Ireland. If this statement were correct, and he had little doubt of its being so, the difference be tween the actual amount and that set forth in the pamphlet lie had quoted, was the difference between 1,7,0001. and 117,0001. a year. The pamphlet also declares, that the sum of 300,0001. wns received by the 18 Bishop% and the 4 Archbishops of I reland_ohns giving an as he average of 14,11 00 1. u year to each Bishopric. The face as far hatlb (enable to avertrun, was very different. Ile had been infontied that, out of the 18, the amount received by 11, eras about Ztelel. by 4, 8,0101., by 1, 70001., and he had rot been able to discnvet regard to the immediate paint, the Fine Fruits, the Ifona aea u e what was renewed by the reniaiiiing two. The Honourable Member had stated that the clergy had grossly miseand ucte d them. Getideman (Mr. II.) had stated, that there were 1300 perishes selves : and here he would submit to the candour of the Hoe ft . In the gift of the different Biehops—that there were in the if it was fair to call on him without any peerinue notice, to ee e ho l ; ',diocese of Dublin 144 rich paddies, and in that of Kildare 131. an opinion that he had given so long back as the year 1022. lkh en But the tin was. that in the gift of the Bishop of Dublin the lion. Member first mentioned it, he MIA quite at a h iss to con . - - 1 there were only twenty, eleven ef which were extremely eeive to what he had alluded ; but the recollection o f i t, as the raw, and in that of the Bishop of Kildare not more than half the lion. Member proceeded, mole gradually on him, and no w i ; number. The lion. Gentleman had %Inn, among other grievances, well as he could, he would state the c ircuinstanees. First Fel i F t „ quoted that of the 107 Rural Deans; hut of nes mike the sole were originally ventral in the Crown by the Statute* of !luny ygi r employment and profit contented in being allowed to assist the and Queen Elisabeth. and an he construed these Acts, the tie; of i Rieflr in the Coesistonal Courts. Ile (3lr. Stanley) was woe- the Crown to estimate the s e doe s only extended to the a mount at I nfehe to find ties ereimentance needling up the list of complaints. which they were estimated in the King's books; they continued fie had heen informed that the receipts of several Catholic priests in the Crown until the reign of Queen Anne, who then surrendered 'amounted to 11 1 W., ;pita. and feint n rear, and that ie one parish . them to some religious palpates. Thee for a period of no m a . ' nest Dublin the clergyman received POOL Ile had also been in. until the unfortunate hour when he was consulted, t h ey had eon: I funned by a noblenian who resided near Dublin, that, in many I tinned to:be levied at the rate fixed in the King's beetles. 1111111 bIDIDUICCP, the Protestant% were not only obliged to support their I the period of is hutch he spoke. The gentlemen collecting th em own clergy, but to give annual donations to the (esthetic priests. in I undertook, without any authority but his own, to commit ' order that they might be on good terms with their neighbours. He , that prieeee, and to make the clergy pay w i t h out referroe: hoped he should not be tnieandernond ; he did not contend that in 'to the King'n books, and this, ton, was done by a p moo who Ireland there were no grievances to complain of; he was sure that had no means of informing himself as to what the admit value,* Ithat country was suffering, more or less, from those evils which the livings was. This, he had before remarked, the Collector had . attended everything human. He was anxious that the question, in done out his own responsibility. Now if any charge w as to „ kg I all its bearings, should he considered. Ile would not object that, plate, the Art of Parliament had pointed out how that charge was ,at sonic time or other, a coo:missies) should be sent into Itched to to be effected. The officer, in acting as he had d one, might hare be an eye-witness of its state, and to ascertain the best mode of I though! that lie was performing his duty, and he was comb the, I afferdirg it relief ; but he would object to its being sent forth in the opinion which he gave on being consulted, was th e K est ; with prejudiced reeling% and having for its avowed object to conviction of his mind. and therefore, In giving it, he had done el n: ' reduce--if it were poisible to reduce—the Church Establishment more than hi duty, for he did think that the ancient method us* .of that cautery. This cause would be now prejudged before it which these dues had always been paid, ought t o h ave heel - pre was head. Ile would confess that the strong teeming. exprouted I brewed; but the Gentleman to whom he had a ll u d e d had refused _ by the lion. Member for Aberdeen relative to the Established Ito receive these first fruits on that scale. With respect to the pro. Church of England and Ireland, led hint more particularly to i toitant establishment of Ireland. he thought it essential to the oppose this motion, notwithstamling that he wished to see given to 1 preservation of the union of the two countries that it should b e sa the subiect a full, free, and perfect inveetigatit n. ported, and that the heads of that Proteetant Establ is h ment should rile. DAM'S( tei spoke at considerable length against the moo be enabled to associate with the Nobles of the land, and for which I lion, but we regret that the lion. Member's observations were hi- their education, their talents, and their gelling, equally qualifi e d I audible in the gallery. We understood the lion. Gentleman at them. In conclusion, he begged to teen to the attenCol . of the I the close of his speech to say. that wherever the Established House that the existence of the Protestant Entablishinent • in all its i Church existed in the reeled strength. pe.sce and prnsperity integrity, was the only sure and certain bond of unites have*, t h e chiefly prevailed. In the province of Ulmer th is was most strongly two countries, at d when eny attempt was made to despoil it of he I instanced—nest in Connaught, then in leinster and in nluneter ; property, if such attempt unfortunately succeeded, the doom a its I the want of influence of the Established Church wan evidenced by connexion with this country would be that instant sealed. (Ch em . ' nut,, frequent disturbances than in any other part of Ireland. The Sir JOHN lilt VDU ES ruse and n4ed—" Deprecatin g as I d o ) I Protestant Clergy as magistrates were most exemplary; as land. the constant practice of dragging the Church Establishment before Lards they were honourable and indulge:it. The service of the the public, in order to degrade it, I congratulate thos e Honourable I Church was best performed in the North el Ireland. He thought Members who are friendly to it. on the total failure of the Hon. I there had been no case made out by the lion. Member, and should Member for Aberdeen. and the triumphant answer of the Hon . I oppose him motion. Member who succeeded him in the debate ' • and here I sin : I Mr. D. BROWN assured the Harm that he would only very tented the question shall rest. Rut I feel lhave a right to cower shortly trouble them with his view of die case. The population of an unfounded assertion of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. He I Ireland was seven nellions; of tile seven millions five 'milieus and has stated that my Hon. relation the Archbishop of A has three quarters were Catholics, a quarter of a million Dissenters, augmented the profits of his see since his appointment te r tZ gh l will I not Presbyterians, etet.ooo Presbyterians, and 500.000 of the Es- tell this Hon. 31ember he has been impend upon, and I Can not . tabliehed Church. It was supposed that the property of the Este. from what source he has derived his inform at i on —b ut I say it is blishment was 2.lltlms of the eurphis wealth of the island. He be- equally false as malicious. If there is one Hon. Prelate who die. lieved it would be n.ore accurate to state the property in question to charges his duty beyond another, I would say this was the Arch. be from a 4th to a sth of the whole island. But It had been said, that I I hop of Armagh : charitable, pious--ahly, strictly, and conscien. the Clergy did hot receive their full retire; but to that he would dowdy fulfilling every duty of his station. Perhaps the lion. reply, that it the I lergy did not receive their full rents they received Me none ma sty IPM a prejudiced advocate. If so, I refer ek e a line instead of them. If they received 201. a-year fur what they to the genhy, clergy, and poor of the dioceses of Itaphoe, Clagher, would receive 1901. it was because they themselves, or their pre. , and Dublin, in each of which he was received as a blessing, and dot-fume. had sold the rental by taking a fine in lieu of it. There ! parted from with the greatest regret. So muc h fa the Hon. Me,e. were 2,400 parishes in Ireland, and if his premises were coned. I tint accuracy of inhumation. I will not detain the HOYHomylonger OR an average there were 2,300 Catholic*, 200 of the Established but only add, as ati friend to the Church I shall giv e m opre: Church, WO Presbyterians, and 100 other Dissenters in each anion to this 4 measure, in which. I trust, I shall be wined b y such parish. lie would ask the House if the ministers of the thick of 200 a majority as will set this question at rest for ever.' r I could continue to retain the property, whilst those over the 2,309 Sir FRANCIS BC RDETT had not intended to have ad. were unprovided for? Such a state of things could not last. Ile dressed the liteme, but for the remarkable speech of the Hon. regretled that 8 millions of the people should reject the reformed and Learned Gentleman who had preceded the lan speaker. It win religion • but so long as they did, it was impossible for the Church universally adtnnted, that the dimmer which existed in Ireland was of Ireland to continue to retain its property. Ile did not think his not to be paralleled by that of any other country in the world ; •it Hon. Friend's measure went tar enough. Ile thought the way to wins to be attributes to the evils that were so deeply 'noted th a t he touch the question with most effect was to make a provision for the felt it to be dangerous touch upon them. He hardly knew where Catholic Clergy out of the property of the Protestant Clergy. to begin with them. It was the misfortune principally of that an. Until that was done no connection could exist between the Govern- happy country. dust if they entered at all into its grievances, they meet and the lower orders. He thought the English interest ventured on such a see, that it was difficult to contend with it; they would he stronger if more of the Aristocracy were of the Catholic were told that it was better to lay hold of some specific religion, lie should certainly support the motion of hie lion. point that might be treated singly. If a specific point was Friend. pitched on, they were answered, that that waif not the particu. Mr. ROBERTSON observed, that there were two modes to lar grievance. The lion. and Learned Gentleman who had just restore peaceto Ireland. A union between Catholics and Pro. sat down had presented to the Irish people a most mel a n c h o ly and natant' Mint be the basis of peace in that country t and there heart-brad:mg prospect, an he had destmyed any hope they might were two ways of doing it. 'I he one was, to give the Catholic entertain of ever meeting with redress from this country. Ile hod Cone ty a share of the tient*: and the other was. a union between certainly formed views for the amelioration of the Irish people, but the PrObWRILIa and Catholic Church. This to many Gentlemen they were such as he hardly knewhowto introduce, as he fe a red they might appear highly improbable, but more improbable unions had would be deemed wild And visionary ; bur of one thing he was con taken place on the Continent ; and if it were within the bounds of vinced, that if they meant to reli eve t h e ntuntry at all, they must probability, it ought •o be tried. There was no difference of faith get out of the beaten track, out of the routine of Parliament. Eves between the two religions at all essential—the ('reed of the Roman had been for ages accumulating in that country, from some cause Catholic was the Creed of the Eetabliehed Church. Archbishop or other that hid never been explored. Something row must be Tillotson had said, that the Apostles Creed of both Churches was done, and their wounds must be probed to the bottom, if it was in. the same. In 11117 Prussia united Lutherans and Calvinists; tended to relieve them. lie agreed in all the eulogiums that had Hesse Cassel and Bavaria did the same. He proposed this course been passed on the admirable address of his Hon. Friend near hint as the only certain one of restoring tranquillity; for without the (Mr. Stanley ), though he did not give his support to the motion. great griev. Horatio') of that unhappy country. The debate would that night House went to the root of the evil, they would do no good. He Ile thought that Government ought to hare come forward, and should cordially support the motion. mated to the people what it was their intention to do for the some. ante of G lre ll ia A n 'l d. T a A „ N d t t h h o e u y g w h ele t the a llr co t id o ered f tithe in th l ; BB and 1739, have passed of but for the speech of the beamed Gentleman oP when hla father had proposed a measure on the subject. He should !went (Mr. Plunkett), and he could not think that that would vote for the measure, as the best means of serving the Pro- have been a proper mo d e o f treating • question of such tenants. momentous and vital importance. The Honourable Member Mr. PLUNKETT said, that it was not his intention to have opposite had said a great deal of the inaccuracy of the statement of troubled the Hoene that night, but from sonic observations that hie lion. Friend. Such &nervations were very easy to make, hot had been made, he felt it necenary to offer his opinion upon the it required more than assertion to prove that they were so. Let the measure. Having, therefore, been so directly alluded to, it was lion. Member point out where they were wrong; that would be the impassible for hint to suffer the House to adjourn without making most satisfactory way of refitting them. Inth respect to what the some observations on the present question, and he made them on Learned blenther had stated with regent to chtweh property, he behalf of dint cause to which he was unalterably attached, and must say that it stood on a very different footing to what be had te which he was sorry to hear mixed up in the way it had been, with presented it. He would ask to what Church was that property the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. He need not state that the given ? Not to the Church that was now in possetsion of it, but question he alluded to was that of Catholic Emancipation ; end to another, and that he thought a sufficient answer as to the sacred when he listened to that lion. Member as coupling the Catholic character of it. lie sincerely hoped that Gentlemen would have question with his other plan of taking down the Protestant Este- the good sense not to he misled by such absurd arguments. If it blishment, he for one would deprecate any assistance that he could be *hewn that the establishment of the Church eras in sir might afford in producing that great result which was so earnestly part wrong, it was ridiculous to suppose that the Legislature had desired. He woule not light with him in the same cause. The rot the power to divert the funds set apart for the maintenance of destruction of the Protestant Establishment in Ireland was nct the that Church into any other hands by which the Establishment benison which the Catholics rested their hopee of emancipation. He t mild he bettor corducted. Why was private property ht 1,1 had always enpported the lion se Catholin, but he had newer done sacred but fir the pahlic intere s t ? The good and welfare of the it at the expense of the Proteetant Church. If the proposition of I community was the sole end and aim of every rational Government. the Mover of the question rested on the words of the motion, there Such arguments, therefore, as had been delivered to the House was nothing in them with which he was disposed to quarrel (hear), that night were childish in the extreme. The Protestant wend. but if he was to judge of it by the argument.' with winch that mo. ancy in Ireland, about which so much had been said, was actually tion was supported, then he would at once declare that he would not a curse to it, and nothing but evil resulted to that country fromet. go to sea in such company—that lie would not embark in the same The attachment which the Irish people had sheen to theme religion, boat--he would not go with hint to a certain latitude, and then hare was one of the most honourable traits in their national character, as his sealed orders opened, which might impel them to a destination it chewed that no persecution could detach them from it; and unless fug which he was in intone prepared. If he had understood the lion. Catholic Emancipation was granted to the Irish people, the eon- Member rightly, the model which he meant to act upon, as a sob- neeion of the two countriea could not long subsist, as the Catholics stitute of the hierarchy, was Almeria ; but if that model were to be had plainly by th.mir seffiring* evinced that they wer e not to be dri. adopted in Ireland, it was equally fitted for England, or for any yr' from their religious principle.. As to the distresses of the othe ceun ry whose church establishment it was wished to over.. country, he thought there wa s b ut one mode of relieving them, turn ; but the Honourable Member, in the second pan of his an. : and that was by sending them to the Colonies, not on a sanded vale, gement, had desert. d his favourite American model, and c a. lan hot been done at the Cope of Good Hope. best by colonintien had rot the means of doing this. He would feteed that he did not disapprove of the hierarchy in Ireland, Itut. lin the old Roman style. Our Colonies were rich ; such a prod et:- pt e int w o u ti n t try where they existed. M'ould it not be more for wished mo see all the wealth and power of it unlettered to ing would render them magnificent. It might be said dime tl th e e C ri f inami holic m Ch o u t sch tim in%uticil:",asyethethweasnmi.n.c.linbedy to censure s t u ne re lionoumble Member proposed to carry it through were more the public advantage to devote the 500,0001. which had been calculated to eadee alarm, as, tarred that, he had supposed him- granted for churches, the 303.08)1. which had been voted for tae self at liberty to deal with Church property in the same manner as rerun of Windsor Cantle, whet no one could tell where such re he would deal with the expenditure of assessed or any other taxes. pane were required—the anoint that wo u ld b e saved by the repeal But in his opinion the State was not justified in touching at all en of the Salt and Assessed Taxes, which he had no doubt would be the revery of the Church, excepting for the martinet exigen. carried? Here was a million raised at once, so that the want of des of the State, at which period all property in the country, of funds could no longer he pleaded. The lion. Member, whose whatever description, would be liable to be celled on. The pro- spend) had been so much lauded (Mr. Stanley) had used every petty of the Church was equally, and in the tame degree, sacred argument for the motion, and had yet expressed his intention 4 f with any other property, which must all be considered as man. voting against it, perhaps in the hope that Ministers would take sting fool the Crown. And here he could not help alluiliag to the up the subject shortly; he did not care by whom the remedy was if. brilliant speech with which the House had been that night favoured fected, so long as it was attempted. It must be admitted that the t b b y e an ifo ll use_ ouour he a c b oa le Member because whom u" they had nothing to do ; the p.noi le they ought t• instruct *biter' el on the ll heacem e congratulat e d le i.to iis c wh rgy were eg oust they wnereliiter among cause of such manly and noble sentiments as had that night ewes. their principles, and would receive no instruction from them. They I ated from the Honourable Member. Ile congratulated the country and, that !muted of bringing peace they brought them a sword. gratulated o t n h : h pu e thi:: side lon having such talents ready to be called into action. He (negro- Instead of doing good they came in repugnance and hostility. Itulated the noble stock from which he sprees, and by whom Mr LESLIE Ft ISTER commenced by stating, that although in new honors were to be conferred on their ancient race. He Leitenter the ttatholtes were one.fieth, in `punster onedwelfth, and would ask, who were the parties that were to be benefited in Connaught one twenty-fourth, still a large proportion were Sy . the uprooting of Church property? Who would be the Protestants in Ireland; and he asked whether, for this proportion gamer* by the abolition of tithes ? Certainly not the pone. lof Protestants, it was not nece•sary to keep up the Protestant cats. Here he would readily ninth, that on e of the greatest calamities blishment ? He felt it his duty not to let pass unnoticed state. that afflicted Ireland, was the little attention that was raid to the I meets like theer made by then, .51..mbe• who introduced thin no. comfort of the lower classes its that country ; but such ama te:lre ! time In fact, if the House' acceded to the motion, it would be a would not at all affect the poor, for whether the landlord be lenient ts ois ion of the pcnpevty of • It' landed proprietors of Ireland. If or no, the property was merely to be taken from the clergy to be I the salaries of the Isidlems were discont.nued, the laity would be given to the landholder, by an act of spoliation (hear, hear); he I also inimed ; and the plan prorated was to take it altogether would repeat it, by an act of spoliation, as it could not be so from the landlord. The plan was impracticable; Bishops wete well characterised by any other term ; and when such had been some of them rich—many of them roor ; but the object was to done, let the landholder look to himself, let the fundholder espe. injure all, and to destroy Iwo minions mid a hall of actu I chilly look to himself. for as to his peopertr, as it was the more property. The ant-Age value of the eighty-four parishes a . tangible, PO it would the more readily fall. Having said thus much, hided to was not more than four hundral and ten pounds per yen, he would now advert to the topic in the speech of the Honourable are looking to the compositions, that was not an ovreeverage Member tor Aberdeen which had called him up: the Honourable value. The ceelniantical income from tithed was not more emen Member had stated, that the number of non-ratietents of the Irish G 00,0901. in at ear, and it would be fa r the Hoene to car:titer ht w clergy amounted to e 311; now, perhaps, after such a statement be f r that sum was pros °vita d to the rentel of Ireland, which see should obtain credit from the House. when he told them, on ac. nearly ten milbon, amounting only, as the tithe did, to one.sevee - curate authority, that if they were to strike off the :Mk the re . tecnth of that sum. The diocese of Clonten only shared sixeente maiming 31 would be an exaggeration ; the Henourable Member per acre, though it was put down as a serious evil. He saw i n had indeed been painfully and laboriously inaccurate (laughter); necessity for inquiring into the church property of Ireland—it Rib but lie believed he could tell the House the way in which the nut of the pow, r or the House; fee the Act of Uni en went is Honourable Member had fallen into such mistakes : he had first the support of that church establishment- This mien on should counted up all the unions of parishes that had taken place, be set at rest. Old prophecies were sent aircingst the Irish people and then he. reckoned all those holding the livings of the united to tell them that it was to be put down ; and the nova the House parishes as pluralists (laughtce); and thus if a man did not reside decided the better for the happiness vet the country. in inure than one of those united parishes, then he was an absentee. Mr. Ill'llE, in reply, stated, that all he had heard convinced (Laughter.) [baler these isupresmons the Ileumurable Member had him of the propriety of his motion. Ile was accused of making been ended. What he now stated to the House was communicated anonymous statements ; and yet the lion. Member or Stockbridge, to him by persons high in rank and officialsituation in Ireland, and wit's an unfairness not expected from him, answered him by so who he was sure would be above lending themselves to any false. eulogy on the English Church Establishment. lie ( M r. Hume) hood or deception, and therefore he relied on its truth. fie told never said a word - about the English Church ; his whole obeenrs him, that in Leine!, there were not twenty clergymen who held live tines were about Ireland. Ile remembered an lion. St-vinery to logs in that country, that were not resident thereon some benefice. contradict a statenient of his own signature ; and yet he (NI.. (Hear, hear.) His authorities, as he bad beforeobserved, wetein. Hume) afterwards proved it to be his. He made no anonymous capable of wilful inaccuraey. The lion. Member had been very statements; he quoted the authority of Illr.Wakefielel, a man who precise in his oddity of 331 t but he would ask him where they had every possible opportunity of peeing and knowing Ireland. To , were tube met with it English Gentlemen were con s tantly travel. a unit be (Mr. Hume) was certain of the truth of what he stated. ling about ; how happened it they did not see them? He could 3lr. Wakefield cited the authority of Dr. Beaufort, the best audit/- state, from his own personal knowledge, that it was impossible to illy on the subject. lie cited an authority never qua ioned fur conceive any class of men more sedulously attentive to their duties 2.1 years ; and certainly if say one acted on anonymous authority, than the Proteetant clergy of Ireland. (Hear.) It was true there it was the Hon. 31ember to whom he alluded. The Clerical Ile might be ceceptions ; nine twenty indolent oneta-men who went ginter altogether justified pia statement. This motion was net a about to watering places, and acted the parts of bucks and swag. measure, but a means towards an mid. I t vise no spolixtiine it fleeces ( hardy - but where, he would ask, was there a great body was merely an ittquir). That was all he wanted; hut the Right among whom there were not tonic bad sect unworthy members? With lion. lientiCTl:32l but the happy faculty of never underetaeave eor • fconcurre amount ow a a a