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I I V S. - 444- 4.41 r r-~, - idiesochert the s)rahgetriea ; bat he equally believed that they mould both remain as efficient after it was pawed as before. Ile did not stand up as the advocate of Catholic Emancipation; but he thought it too touch to attack men for what they mid in the heat of depute, with their feelings irritated and certainly acting under con dosed disappointment. It had been calculated that the Catholic sent would amount to 30.0001. annually ; how that conclusion had been arrived at, he did not know • but this he knew, that until the agitation of this measure, the Carhlie Rent was dying a natural death. It was by collision that it had increased. In one parish that belonged rota splotlanian of his acquaintance, not a single shilling was con rlpfloolad to the Catholic Rent ; but what gave vigour and strength .110,il was in a great degree the want of fair administration of Leo--there was one law for the rich and another for the lair in Ireland. The Catholic peasant would be unwilling to dole it a part of his pittance to the Catholics, did he not expect to rells l nself from oppression. They did not care for Catholic 'potion ; but the middle and upper classes, who found eltesaabses excluded from offices that the law bad made them Algal, to, naturally became more discontented flan that cause than they otherwise would be from their other disabilities; and they infused that discontent into their inferiors, who were easily worked upon, in consequer. ° -e of the injustice they themselves experienced. There were 2,000 offices to which the Catholics were eligible, and there were only 11l Catholics elected to them. They must be something less than men if they could bear such Moatinent. Were they to be led like sheep to the slaughter, abut offering resistance ? As a proof of the sort of justice that Esuticted upon in Ireland, he would just relate the following —ln the county of Imadonderry a policeman had been out ng. On his return home, in passing by a farm-house. • ran out after him. The policeman turned round the dog. The farmer's son came to the door to to with him for shooting the dog. The policeman !n -ab* fired and kilted the young man. The tither afterwards , WINS out, and the policeman shot the old man also, because he did OM ease such temperate language as he ought to do. This man was subsequently toed and acquitted. Could the House be sur prised at men thus situated throwing themseloes into the arms of their superiors in rank and fortune, to endeavour, in common with Chem. to be relived from such oppression ? Believing this mea sure to be fraught with the most dangerous consequences, and that inroad of tranquillising, it would tend to disturb and irritate Ire land, he should give it his decided negative. Mr. DOOHEItT y observed, that it had been his lot more than once to bear testimony to the opinion, that the Catholic body had net so great an enemy es the Catholic Association; and if he had befoul any doubt upon that point, the two speeches that. the House bad heard would justify the observation. The Gallant Colonel who spoke last had told them that he had always been against the Catholic claims, but be supported the Catholic Association. His Honourable Friend (for so he hoped he might be permitted tern(' Mm) who had spoken last but ore, the Member for Cork, had stated, that he bad always supported the Catholic claims, but at the same time he had said, that he should vote for putting down the Catholic Association. He had never had so opportunity or giving an opinion upon that great question Ca- Biotic Emancipation. In that House no occasion had been afforded to him, and out of it he had carefully abstained from expressing his wishes, which were most ardent in behalf of the Catholic cause. Re sincerely hoped that no intemperate conduct on the part of the Catholic body, no obstinate perseverance in a course that could not be tolerated, would prevent him from giving that vote that he so i much desired to give, which he always believed would be a bles sing to the country. He claimed no merit for this feeling ; it was that of every one of his lion. Friends around him ; but this was not a question of feeling. Every one would much more willingly take the popular side of a question, and therefore it was that upon this difficult, delicate, and momentous question, he respected the opinions of those who had come to the determination they had come to. Ile was sorry that he had been led 53 much as lie even had been, into what was tailed the Catholic Question. It was beside the question a little; but it was impossible to apnroach the mea sure before the House without goingtullv as much as he had done into it. He thought that no one could deny that the Association which was now existing in Ireland had been carrying on proceedings at variance with the Constitution. An alarm was now general amongst the Protestants, and in his Mod it was a just alarm. It was an apprehension existing amongst the Protestant body generally, not particularly amongst the Orangemen ; but every sober, rational, and well regulated man, who viewed the subject with calmness, and without the feelings of patty, considered this association as subversive of the best interests of Ireland. The Hon. Member then wont on to state, that it was an undeniable fact, and well known to every person acquainted with the history of the country, that the political vice of the Irish nation consisted in their proneness to indulge in illegal conventions—as the grand evil wish afflicted England trom time to time was the propensity of the. people to break out into sudden and violent expressions of their memo. In other words, convention was the curse of Ireland, and a mob the evil most to be apprehended in England. He would maintain, that the onject of the Catholic Association was to over awe Parliament into concession or connivance, and that it was impossible there could exist any freedom of sentiment or argument calculated to lead the House tp a wise determination on the subject of Ireland, if it was to be put down by the daring efforts of the Catholic Association. No other delegated body that preceded it had ever venturrd to go to the same lengths as this had done. The lion. Member for Northampton (('apt. Maberly) had said Mi nisters had offered no proof to the House, even of the existence of the Catholic Association. The speech of the Hon. Gentleman himself had proved it ; for he hail informed the House that he was present at one of their meetings. He likewise added, that he had witnessed very little intemperance in thcir proceedings. He could assure the lion. Gent. that he had been extremely fortunate in wit. samistan assembly of that nature, which had been only in a small Ittulemperate. Others had not been equally fortunate. He m a e ttentively watched the operations of the Association, and egad the publications, which professed to be their organs, and it , would not be hazarding an inconsiderate assertion to say, that no; body of mess had ever joined in putting forth documents so 10am)... inatoey, or so much calculated to excite the worst feelings and edicts. What was the tendency of their famous proclamation to the people of Ireland, but to produce such consequences ? It bad been called a positive good to the country ; he looked upon it as IN greatest evil—an evil, for the existence of which they should not make themselves responsible. The Catholic leaders had established an Association— '• To fright the Isle from its propriety." This they weresaid to hare done in pursuit of their privileges, but, he would ask, was such conduct argument, or was it intimidation ? Such an Association would not be tolerated an instant in this coun try ; it would be pot down in a week. If such a body would be dangerous in England, what most it be io Ireland, where irramibi lity and irritated political feeling were the characteristics of the po pulation. One who knew the country and its inhabitants well had said, that there existed in Ireland a dense mass of population, pos sessing feelings the most inflammable, ready to mount the erattfold in defence of their prejudices. and always easily allured to join the cause of a foreign invader. This was not a mere abstract principle; it was unfortunately no longer a hypothetical case ; it had been submitted to proof in the inatanceot the French invasion of Kil laloe. The grounds assumed by the Catholic Association, and their invariable representations were, that they only sought an ex teosion of the privileges of the Constitution to their body at large, and what they were pleased to call an equal distribution of justice to persona of every creed and profession. If they seek for a just Cortetitutional share of privilege, he was most anxious they should not be debarred front it, but he was sure they had no reason to complain of an unequal distribution of justice. He would assert, without fear of contradiction, that juatice was measured out with an even hand is Ireland ; the Coons were open alike to rich and poor, and without distinction of religion or party. Two years ago the Roman Catholic body had entrusted their petition to the hands of toe Hon. Member fir Winchilsra. (tlr. Brougham,) and the Jo.smed and Hon. Gent. had thought it necessary to state to the ifo.tse, that the petition which be presented was one of mere ge neral propositions, without actual details, and, in short, containing every thing but facts. In the course of this very day the minutes of the evidence taken before the Committee of Irish Affairs last hessan had been laid upon the table. An inquiry into the state of the administration of justice in Ireland, formed a prominent feature in the report. Several witnesses had been examined upon this sub ject, men of respectable character and competent information. The Lrst witness was Mr. Illackburne. a gentleman of talent and the highest respectability, and his evidence went to establish, in the most satisfactory manner, the equal administration of justice in Ireland. Mr. Bennett gave similar testimony. The next he should mention was a gentleman of the moat irreproachable character, and possessing opportunities for coining to a correct conclusion rarely enjoyed by an 'individual ; hr meant Mr. Day, late one of the Judges of his Majesty's Court of King's Bench in Ireland. This tinoendilen rece i ved was of opinion that the body of the population in Ire. equal justice, and were, in that respect, on a corre spondent footing with the inhabitants of England. The conduct of petit Juries, he considered unexceptionable, as far as had came within his knowledge. These bodies were composed of Protes tang' and Catholics indifferently. The Girar.d Juries were composed of Protestants only, and he called the attention of the Gallant OfII. 41W (Colooel Davis) to this point moreparticularly, because, in fact, the Protestant Gentry are far noire numerous than the Catholic. To onion to Mr. Day, he declared it as his conviction, that the consi. iteration of religious distinctions never entered into the imagine. toms of Juries, when called upon to the discharge of their fume twos, which he was persuaded they fulfilled faithfully. He was sot aware of any exception to this remark. which applied equally to every part of Ireland. God grant ! (said the Honourable Mem ber) every Judge in that country may have it in his power to ex press a similar sentiment ; but in his opinion they would not, were the Catholic Association to be left io the undisturbed exercise of its arrogated power. He could not admit that any reform in the Lode of administering justice was necessary ; no case had been made out to that edict—if it were, he would not accept the reform Iran such hands. If justice required to be purified, that was not to be effected by a subscription. Tile Assoitiation have interfered will, the administration of justice, and erected themselves into a is.dy fcr the purpose of directing prosecutions. They have, at this instant, ',mooted an action, which now stands for trial against a most respectab:e Pt otiotant gentleman. The Jury who would have ts ley the case would be in the proportion of ten Catholics to two t•rotastants. Tina action was, as hr had said, raised by the Cs tioill• Association, and under their immediate sanction. The motto and principle of the Association was, 't Whoever is not with us is age. Ist us." They were acting upon principles similar to those adopted by the Convention of 1791, which, as was stated in tl.e Report of the Irish House of Lords, had collected large funds. and expended them in the defence of persons accused of political and other climes. Under such circumstances, if the Association were not only constitutional, but strictly legal, the plea of legality mold not be pairtnitted to avail it, when it artogatad powers so hos ed, to every principlo of sound policy and safety. He had the au. amity of the Learned (iendernin opposite (the Member ISt Witt . . . _.. a ehilsea), on th:s subject, who had expressed similar sentiments in the cue of the Constitutional Association. The conduct of the Convention of 1791 wasoriffing when compared with that of the Catholic Association in the present day. What was to hr thought I if an assembly should sit from February to July. under the osten sible pretence of petitioning, and should do anything and every thing but. petition ? The levying of a tax to be applied to secret purposes was the principal object of the Association. It had been asserted that the contribution was voluntary on the part of the Ca tholic population ; he took leave to dissent from that opinion. It was a mistake to suppose the peasantry of Ireland had money dis posable to such purposes. The contributions were not obtained till the powerful engine of the Catholic Church was brought to bear upon the feelings and prejudices of the people. lie could not ad mit the propriety of permitting the existence of two nooses of Parliament. The Catholic Association was a Parliament sitting from week to week. They did not admit themselves to be the re presentatives of the people, that they might not come under the provisions of the Convention Act, but however they might cloak or disguise the fact, they openly professed to be their virtual repre sentatives. They stated themselves not the appointed hut the adopted representation of the Catholic body. If the Catholics were to have a representative assembly, he would rather it were a re. gularly appointed and recognized one, which might be held ac countable for its acts, than such an association as the present. He was not of the opinion of Gentlemen who imagined this Assembly to possess the entire confidence of the Catholic Association. A Roman Catholic' Gentleman of the greatest respectability (Mr. Dunn) had informed him, that though not a member of the /Ow ' ciation, he had acted upon a Committee appointed for the collec tion o f rent, but withdrew himself on the institution of prose- cations by the Association, and expressed the strongest disappro bation to their measures. Ills opinion was, that the Catholics disapprove of the acts of the Association. He hoped in Gud they did ; for if they would not separate themselves from that body, : they would be indefinitely postponing the consummation of their wishes. The Association atte:npts to exercise a tyranny over the Catholic body, and he could very well understand the reason why persons of retired habits and reluctant to expose themselves to the violence of the Association, should, in am. pearanee, acquiesce in their measures. The Association lays claim to the tranquillization of Ireland. Ile was happy to say it was tranquil, but its tranquillity was entirely owing to the wise, prudent, and temperate measures adopted by the present Chief Go. vernor of Ireland. lie agreed with the Honourable Member who said he would not owe the tranquillity of Ireland to any other power than the Government of the country. He certainly would not be indebted for it to an Association whose feelings were utterly hostile to the Constitution, and whose admonitions to the people were, that " they would find each field a redoubt, and every hill it tower of strength, and Ireland might shake off her enemies • Like dew-drops from a lion's mane.' " It was not his wish to impute an actual desire to the leaders of the Catholic Association to excite sedition or effect separation between the countries. They had doubtless said many things incautiously, and without any fixed purpose, led away, as they might have been, by the excitement of popular enthusiasm and applause. He hoped, though the House should think it necessary to put down the Asso ciation, there would exist no necessity to double the army, as had been asserted by Gentlemen on the other side. He felt persuaded the Catholics would rot attempt to oppose the determination of the House. It was not from the Catholic Peers, from such persons as , Lord Kenmare and Earl Fingal, they were to expect opposition. The Honourable Member for Lincoln (Mr. Williams) had miscon ceived the intention of the Convention Act of 1793. That was an Act levelled not against the tlatholies, but another and distinct body of persons. lie thought he possessed a little more experience on the subject than the Honourable Gentleman, and he felt convinced the Roman Catholics would offer no resistance, but submit to the decision of the House be it what it might. Gentlemen of the Ho nourable Member's profession were in the habit of holding one pre cedent as better than many arguments, and the Catholics had a pre cedent which he had no doubt they would follow in this instance. He alluded to the resolutions of the Irish House of Commons, re. lative to the volunteers in 1782. When the volunteers sent in heir proposition for reform in Parliament, they passed the celebrated resolutions to which he adverted, on which Judge Day, who had been himself one of the volunteers, thus expressed himself: " The House, roused by the eloquence of 31r. Yelrerton (the then Attorney-General), startled from its lethargy, and annihilated the Convention." The volunteers of that period were like many Catholics of the present day, not aware of the illegality of their conduct. They received the rebuke of the House with humility, and immediately disbanded. That the conduct of the House would be equally decisive on the present occasion, and the conduct of the Catholics similar to that of the Volunteers in their submission to the authority of Parliament, he hoped and trusted, for the sake of the well-being and tranquilliza tion of Ireland. Mr. J. DALY opposed the principle propounded by the Right Hon. Gentleman, when he said that the conduct of Irish Members, and the part they took in this question, was regulated by the num. bee and profession of their constituents in that country. He must for himself disclaim the imputation in the strongest anti most direct terms. He was the Representative of a county, the majority of whose population were Roman Catholics ; but if he entertained the opinion that the Catholic Association should be put down, that circumstance would not operate against the expression of his sen timents on the subject. But he held a contrary opinion—he did not think the Association injurious, and could not therefore concur with those whose wish it weal° bring in a special enactment against it. Neither could he feel more disposed to concur with the Hon. Gentleman in his sentiments relative to the administration of justice in Ireland. He was prepared to any it was neither pure nor im partial. How could it be so as the Juries were constituted ? (heir prejudices accompanied them even into the jury -box, and the expression of a good Jury and a Protestant one were synoni mous. The feeling was, that the law was partial ; rot its admini stration under Lord Wellesley. He did not blame his Right Hon. Friend if he did not 'weed in his prosecutions. A Catholic placed in the same situation must have failed. The Catholics of Ireland feel thertrelves.a degraded caste ; its peasantry, a most high-spirited people, feels itself most severely aggrieved. The subject he would next allude to was the assertion of the Hon. Gentleman, that there was a great number of dissenters from the Catholic Association. If there was, they were insignificant in rank and station. The Catholic Association has had the merit of unit ing in the bonds of unanimity, not alone the Catholics in all parts of Ireland, but also the Catholics throughout England : through it has the step been attained of forwarding their cause. He felt a great difficulty and unwillingness in speaking on the subject, fear ful, as he was, of weakening what had been previously said by his Hon. Friends, who were so well calculated to give it every illustration ; it was his duty to speak, and if he omitted doing so he would beuilty of a great dereliction. The question now brought befo g re the House is not alone that of putting down the Association, but it also involves the question of emancipation, and numerous other interests, either directly or in directly connected with it. Ile was not prepared to say that the Association was in consonance with the spirit of the Constitution ; but the evil of it was as limited as could reasonably be expected. From the time of Lord Strafford until the present moment, the situation of Ireland was unchanged. The lower order of Irish (the majority) knew no difference between the name of.. Protestant and Englishman ; and in the language of the country, when they would express the word Protestant, they made use of exgctly the same term as they do to express an Englishman, thus idfttifying the one with the other, considering him of a different country, and as separated from all national brotherhood by a strong line of poli tical demarcation. Ireland, though united to England, has been treated as a colony. Lord Kenmare and the Earl of Fingal, though originally English, are now Irish. The Marquis of Thomontl and Earl O'Neil, being Protestants, are considered as English. Eleven fourteenths of the population of Ireland are degraded and disquali fied, like aliens in kin. lie would say, that if the majority of the people is not governed according to the spirit of the British Consti tution, the Insurrection Act must be revived, and en additional army kept tip. For the twelve years since lie had been in the House, lie had voted for the numhenof 20,090 men exclusively for Ireland. He had supported Ministers, though he by no means considered himself bound to do so. If Government felt indisposed to grant the people their just rights, they should not endeavour to abridge their existing liberties. In the difficulties of this case, their more proximate origin is to be found in that disunion which is known to prevail in die Cabinet as to emancipation. They allege that it is out of their power to pass the Catholic question ; if so it would have been far more advantageous to have unanimously resisted it; yet he would admit, that the oftener it was discussed die better; the measure cannot and will not be ultimately effected, unless brought forward by Ministers themselves; they considered it a question of secondary and not primary importance: they seem not to recollect that it is one of vital consequence : as it affects the pacification and prosperity of the country, the recogni. tion of the independence of South America, or the secession from the Holy Alliance, were nothing when compared to it. The worst possible Government that ingenuity could devise, for Ireland, was the present divided one; the best plan fur the adoption of its mem bers, under the present circumstances, would be to unite and come forward manfully. The Honourable Gentleman did not think, if the Bill was passed and the Association put down, that any ser viceable results would follow ; nor did he believe that, by its meet. mem, the people would be &hen Into rebellion; lie was sure they would continue peaceable fqx evert the knout member of the Ca. thistle !tidy Is sensible that hinemancipation, and consequent oar- 1 ticipation in the benefice of the Constitution , depends solely on peaceable conduct; disaffection is not now what it was formerly— the people are civilized, and, to a certain extent, educated ; they I can appreciate the benefits from which they are excluded, and wilt I not, on light grounds, resort to a violence which would necessarily I throw impedimenta or furnish an excuse to deny their demands. I He personally knew that their misgovernment had reduced them to I a state which he would be ashamed to mention in that House; it i is the disabilities under which they have struggled which have I caused their present degradation ; this Bill is not sufficient. The I House may hereafter be called on for a censorship on the press, and an increase in the army of sixty thousand men ; the people are now full of hope—the House should take care not to procrastinate that I hope ; if they are told that the British Constitution is exclusively I and purely Protestant, and that they, 'as Roman Catholics, cannot be admitted within it. boundaries, he would ask, what will be the I consequences Or who can anticipate their magnitude? lie s as an Irish Protestant, must be considered as an intruder in his own country, unless the House could show him how to get over the line . of demarcation. It is true that the Roman Catholic might arrive at wealth, but he could not rise to honours. The people of Ireland I are remarkable fur their ambition and this bar to its gratification is to them not an Imaginary, but a real and well grounded cause of I complaint. The Honourable Gentleman concluded by observing, 1 that when next the subject came before the House, he would be I prepared to enter meg largely on its discussion. Mr. WILIAAMIFILLIA BIS did not hesitate to confess, that he viewed the Ronnui Catholic Association of Ireland as at variance I a THE BRITISH PRESS. with the principles of the Constitution, and inimical to the best interests and welfare of Ireland. Ile was convinced that the sen. timents of its members were viewed with disapprobation by num ber*, not alone io Ireland. but also in this country. Flom what he had heard, and he had no reason to doubt the aceu-acy of hi. infor mation (would that he had), religious animosity, to a moat frightful extent, pervaded all parts of Ireland. If it wan the duty of the Holm to linty that animosity, to pacify the perturbed spirit which is so prevalent. and quirt party feuds and discords, it is its duty to do so without delay. It the measure which is now under discus , Rion is not carried into cffeet, it will be giving • triomph to the Boman Catholics, which, in the present state of the country, would be a mcst serious evil. By this exprmition of his sentiments lie would not be understood as pledging himself to support the Bill ; for it tufght.so happen, that when it came on to be further discussed it would be found to contain clauses encroaching on the spirit of the Constitution, every one of which he would feel himself bound to oppose. He estijiryed the benefits of the Constitution himself, and wished—wished most ardently, that rot alone the Catholic, but every being of the human race, could be brought within its pale. Never were the people so adverse to the Roman Catholic—never were they so adverse to their claims—and to the conduct of the Association he was convinced their hostility was attributable; it was calculated to the defeat of that object they have so much at heart, and to produce interminable heart.buroings and discord. tChatever subjecte they may have to complain of, they should not irritate by their speeches--they aliould not endeavour to extend their powers, but submit to the Constitution. Mr. 110MINIC IrlitOWNE—The great noise which prevailed in the House while this Gentleman wan speaking, and his low tone I of voice, prevented our being able to hear the lion. Member's ob servations; as far as they could be collected, they were that the acts and establishment of the Catholic Association spread alarm throughout Great Britain. Mr. It. MARTIN was ready to admit the statements made by his Hon. Friend, and to subscribe to almost all the deductions he had drawn. When he was in Ireland, be went to the Catholic As sociation, and pointed out tots influential members, the errors they had fallen into, and those they were likely to commit. He was lie tamed to with attention, and be believed with a feeling that the mo tives that actuated his interference were derived by his anxiety for their benefit. That the Amociation was instrumental in pacify ing the country / he would readily grant, but he must confess. that I e did not look upon this with as touch complacency or gratification of mind as others appeared inclined to do. It would be well to remember, that the same arm which ex tended the trident over dm angry billows, and assuaged the tempest, might hereafter *won the waves, and drive the tempest from every point of the compass. As to the beneficial operation of this Bill he had no great hopes; it will fail in its operation ; and it may, perhaps, be fou nd, that arter travelling forwards, we are just where we set out. (Loud !magma.) The Association committed one great fault in forming a union with the Gentlemen opposite, and entrusting their Petition tc the Honourable Baronet, who, with some ten or twelve others, when it came or. for discussion, walked out of the House; because, as he said, he could not de pend on the Government how can he now bring it forward ? The Hon. Gentleman concluded with some further observations. Mr. WA BRE considered the proposed Ihll as an absurd and inadequate measure. The disease proceeded from causes which required a different remedy. He referred to what he considered an historical inaccuracy in a remark which had fallen from an lion. Member. That lion. Gendesnan, when adverting to that memo rable period of Irish history, the year 1782, stated that it was a season of alarm, when illegal assemblies were numerous, and the Volunteer Association assumed a threatening aspect. At that pe riod the Volunteer Associations certainly held a commanding atti tude, but how were they put down? by concessions—when the re quired concessions were made the Associations vanished. This period was referred to as the era of Irish liberty—the era which immortalised the name of Grattan. The great error had hitherto been, that in legislating for Ireland, every act of concession was embittered by restrictions, and accompanied by coercion. An lion. Member (111 r. J. Italy ) had adverted to the Insurrection Act, which he ttuiy stated to be little consonant with the British Constitution. The way in which this extraordinary power that was conferred on magistrates by this Act was exercised in Ireland, could not be con sidered as diminishing its objectionable character. In the county of Tipperary, in the year IBM, 497 persons were apprehended and tried under this Act, of whieh 'number 481 were acquitted. This was a specimen of the manner in which the power was exercised with which magistrates were invested by the Insurrection Act. He confessed that nothing which he had heard at either side of the House, and nothing which had fallen from the King's Ministers, convinced him that the proposed measure would reach the Asso ciation, even as it now existed, or give assurance to the House that even if it was put down by the proposed measure, it would not be renewed and revived in another state. It was the irritation of six millions of people breaking out, because they were placed in most anomalous situation. hooking at the present state of Ire land. he could not help expressing his indelible conviction that there was only one mode of cure for Ireland—granting to the Ca tholics their just rights. Ile recollected the triumphant manner in which a Right Honourable Gentleman opposite had alluded to Genuany, which had been the arena for religious hate, which had been succeeded by the gentle spirit of toleration. lie had heard something of a speech which fell front Lord Liverpool in the House of Lords, in which his Lordship was recorded to have laid it down as an axiom that there must be a religion holding exclusive privileges. His Lordship quoted the case of Holland, which was a free republican country, but in which a certain class was ;:eluded from high civil offices. 'this was true as respected Old Holland, but Belgium and Holland incorporated admit of no disqualification. The representatives of these two countries, meeting together, differ ing in many patticulars, not cordially united, never contrived to quarrel about religion. But this country was seen standing still, while all the rest of the world was advancing in religious tolerance. He believed that the Bill was objectionable, because it would fail In suppressing the Association, and by this failure place tbs House and the country in a worse predicament than it now was. Mr. LESLIE FOSTER explained. in consequence of some allusions which had been made by the last speaker, as to what had from the Hon. Gentleman on the last evening, with regard to the circumstances of Ireland in the year 1782. Mr. C. W. WYNN concurred in much that had been stated yesterday by Honourable Gentlemen at the opposite side of die }louse. Ile admitted that he (lid not believe the measure proposed could effect permanent tranquillity, if it was not accompanied by Emancipation. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) But it was not a sufficient reason, because Catholic Emancipation could not be obtained, that the House should neglect to adopt other measures, to remedy the most prominent evils. lie had never ne glected to declare his conviction, that the Emancipation of the Catholics was an indispensible measure, and he regretted that the Catholic Association, by its proceedings, had done much to pre judice the cause of Emancipation in this country. He was confi dent the Catholic Association had done more to prejudice the cause by their acts, than ary other Association which ever existed. If emancipation wasgranted he wasequally confident it would takefrom the Association the power of doing mischief : it would weaken the mischievous efforts of demagogues and strengthen the Government. I The discussions of the Catholic Association had already produced much rancour and animosity, but mischievous as it had been the worst consequences were not yet produced. It was impossible to calculate how many other associations of a like character might spring up, and fill the country with animosities and bad feelings. It was a physical axiom that action and re-action were equal, but this was not true politically. Politically the re-action was in creased in force. Upon what principle could other political associ. ations be kept under if the Catholic Association was unheeded, and allowed to persevere. How could Protestants be prevented from associating, and calling upon the Protestant inhabitants of Ire land, by the hate they bear to Papists." Can it be expected that the violence of the Catholics will be met on the other side by meekness and forbearance? or is it not snore probable that the feel ings of the Orange party will be still further excited, and tend to produce an alarming state of exasperation If the Catholic Asso. niation is not put down the house should repeal all laws against the Orangemen. Associations of various descriptions have ever been the curse of Ireland. In turn there were Whiteboys, Rightboys, Peep-o'-dap-boys, and &number of other associations, under dif ferent names. Now, whilst one side should be tolerated, it must be impossible to check the other. It may ba said that the proceed. tags of associations had arisen from the feebleness of the Itiws and the defects of the administration. It may also be said that the feebleness of the laws and the defects of administration proceeded front those unfortunate associations. Truth was the cause and effect played for each other, and produced no very agreeable result. Whenever endeavours were made to prejudice the public mind, of course the laws wore perverted, and the source of justice poi soned. If the Act was intended to put down any particular As. sociation, Its could not consider it founded upon justice, and it should not have received his (Mr. Wynn's) support.. But the Act was intended to reach both Protestants and Catholics. Associations, SR he before observed, had been the bane of Ireland, and this Act was intended be applied equally to all political Associations, whether composed of Protestants or of Catholics. It was said that the proposer'...-+essure would prove ineffectual. He hoped that this prediction a711(1 not be verified. He thought the opinion of I'ar liament, publicly pronounced, upon the Association, would be suf ficient to suppress it. lie did not believe that the Members albs Catholic 'Association would pertinaciously hold out, after such an expression of opinion. If lionourabk Gentlemen looked with a lawyer's eye at the Acts of Parlianieat which had been made, and effectually made, at different periods, in England, to suppress Af vxiations, they might reasonably conclude that those Acts would hare proved wholly ineffectual. But experience had detnonstrated that the contrary was the result : the opinion of Parliament was supported by the opinion of the country, and the Associations against which the measures were directed, fell to the ground. Be fore he should sit down, he begged to say, he should be the last person in that House, who would consent to compromise the just rights__ rights was a strong word, but he would continue to use it--of the Catholics. Ile would also observe, that the proposed measure was not supported by one side oldie Cabinet or another. It was founded on the general opinion of the Cabinet. When the question of Ca tholic Emancipation was brought before the House, it should con tinue to receive, as it had ever done, his humble support. NV hat ever should be the conduct of the Association, or into whatever hands their cause may fall, his opinions upon the subject would remain unchanged, and no difference of opinion should prevent him front affording to the measure his strenuous support. Mr. CA LCRA FT apologised for obtruding himself upon the attention of the Ilouse, when others better entitled to its attention were anxious to express their sentiments. Ile did not recollect that a question of greater importance had ever been discussed in the House. It was an attempt to stifle the voice of the Catholics, but it must be ineffectual. Unless the real friends of the Catholics spoke out in the Cabinet and in that House, and conceded to the Latholtesther just rights, they might calculate upon frequent pe. riodical visitations its the shape of Catholic Associations, Catholic Conventions, or Catholic Boards. The Right Hun. Gentleman ' (Mr. Wynn) before he sat down, expressed his opinion upon the indispensible nee .i v y which existed for granting Emancipation to the Catholics. Whilst that Right Hon. Gentleman continued a member of the Cabinet, which n.ade it impossible to grant Eman eipatien, he must be excused for doubting the Right lion. Gentle man's sincerity if he himself had not declared it. (Hear, hear.) Whilst Gentlemen held place under a Government, so constituted that it was impossible to grant a concession which was admitted to be indispensible, he must caution the country against any reliance ' upon the public principles of such men. When they were faithless upon one question, they could not be trusted upon any ; and again he would caution the country, and conjure it to reflect, before its interests were committed to such supporters, of a question which was acknowledged to be one of vital importance. The Hon. Gen tleman was adverse to the Catholic Association, because counter- Associations might arise from it. Did the Hon. Gentleman consi. der that the Catholic Association had grown out of those Orange Associatioes which the same Hon. Gentleman was formerly so for ward in denouncing. (Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. C.) and those who acted with him, would say, Allay the grievances., redress the wrongs of the Catholics'. and you will make them as peaceable, as industrious, and as anxious for the preservation of tranquillity as the Orangemen, or any other affected pretenders to loyalty. Why did the lion. Gentleman *peak of Governments having put down Associations in England? Were any individuals connected with As sociations in England excluded from • full participation in the privileges of the Constitution ? They were not : then why insti tute a comparison where no analogy existed. lie felt confident that even though the Association should be put down, there was no probability of putting down the Catholics. Ile h oped the Ca thrums would continue to state their grievances, and press them upon the House and the Government so long as they could as semble in a legal ;end constitutional manner. lie hoped they would continue to present petitions until they obtained redress. lie never recollected any official person coming down to the Mum in the manner which the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. (ioulburn) had done, when he asked the assistance of the House to restrain the Catholics from expressing their opinions. Such measures were usually preceded by given bags, and accounts of secret societies and unlawful oaths. But what did the Honourable Gentleman come down to suppress ? An open &celery, to which the public were freely admitted, and the proceedings of which may be read in any of the newspapers. This nieasure, 100, was to be carried through the House at the very moment when Ireland was declased to be in a state of perfect and unexampled tranquillity. Ile (Mr. C.) did not think the Catholic Association would roast the measure proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, but he thought they would anticipate it. The Catholic Association would fade away and assume some new form, before the Honourable Gentleman's Bill could cress the Channel. The Catholics had no idea of resisting my measure by force. 'file whole tenor of their proceedings demonstrated the absence of such an intention. It would be frantic if the Catholics permitted the notion of force to enter their minds. It was equally absurd for the House or the Government to believe that it could obstruct the measures of the Catholics ; that any Bill could prevent the concentration of their numbers:, and the collection of money to be applied to general purposes. It was in vain to tell a people, goaded by oppression, that they should not complain. Did the Ministers remember his Majesty's visit to Ireland ? lie (Mr. Calcraft) happened to be in Dublin at this memorable period. The elation, the gratitude, the loyalty of the people, exceeded every thing he could have imagined. The ardour and enthusiasm of the Catholics were more conspicuous than that of the Orangemen, and no doubt they were more sincere in their devotion. Any man who looked deeper than the surface might have foretold that the cup which was then presented to the unsuspecting Irish, would, ere long, be dashed untested from their lips. The King went, hold ing in one hand Lord Sidmoutli„ and, in the other hand, the Mar quis of Londonderry. " The bane and antidote were both before" the country : this ins moment told them that the Bill should pass, and this :veered them that it never could. ‘V hat a mockery was this to the hopes of a nation ? but, in the joy and elation of the hour, it was forgotten, and this generous but thoughtless people hailed with the same feeling of respect, with the same acclama tions, Lord Sidmouth, who opposed their emancipation, and Lord Londonderry, who advised it, and whom he was sorry fur alluding to under the circumstances. When the Honourable Member who now presided at the Board of Control, sat at his (Mr. Calcrafee) side of the House, lie would not have considered the conduct of a I Cabinet commendable, which admitted a measure to be indispee sible, and yet retain their places, without any serious edam to effect this measure. But passing from one side of the !louse had effected a considerable change in the Right lion. Gentleman's sen timeets ; he now looked indulgently at that which bad formerly excited his indignation, and concluded, that by voting for Catholic Emancipation he had done quite enough to tranquillize Ireland, and prove himself to be an effective Minister of State. The abjuration which was complained of, viz. " By the hatred which you bear to Orangemen " was nothing more than a strong appeal to the feelings of the people to ensure peace and tranquillity; the invocation merely meant to call upon them by the hatred which they bore to the oppressors and hypocrites who had plundered them for 100 years. (Hear, hear). It was an invocation for them not to join Whiteboysem any other boys. (Laughter.) lie must say that he felt it his duty to oppose the introduction of this Bill ; not that he approved of the principle of the Association, but that he thought that the present plan upon which Ireland was governed, would produce these Associations. They must apply the true remedy at once, and rot try these temporary measures which were mere nostrums day after day. It had been asserted it at the As sociation had rendered the Catholic Cause unpopular in England ; but that he (Mr. Calcraft) must deny, and so far was that from being the fact that he did not doubt the English people would con cur with any government which would undertake to relieve the Catholics. (Hear, hear.) If the Catholic Claims had been urged with violence and supported by arms, the spirit of the English people would have risen against them, and they would have been dismissed. It had been urged against the Association that they had collected money, and this collection, he would say, in so poor a conntry, must aeon cease; but what was the amount of the col lection ? He (Mr. Calcraft) then held a paper in his hand by which it appeared that it did not exceed 9,1*01. Now, let the House look into the collections made by Bible Societies, Methodist Societies, and others; not that lie meant to say that these bodies raised the money unconstitutionally, Or that it was improperly applied ; but they would find that the sums they col lected, doubled, trebled, and even quintupled, those collected by the Association. Ile could not account for the pretence which was given for this Bill, after the acknowledgment that Ireland was in a more peaceable condition than it had been for some time. lie should like to know with whom the 8111 originated. It had been said to be the production of the united wisdom of the Cabinet, which could not always be said of other measures, in which it was generally the united sense of the Cabinet. lie had heard that it was an Irish measure which had come across the water, from the Lord Lieutenant, and been adopted by our Government ; but he was quite sure the Marquis of Wellesley would not have sent the proposal of such a measure without offering some alter native. The great objection urged against the Association was. that there was no opposiition ; the Ministers, no doubt, would feel it was an evil here, for the Opposition, during the Session of Parliament, served to keep the divided Members of the Cabinet together. There was a remedy within their reach, and they ought to apply it, and that remedy was Catholic Emancipation. (Hear, hear.) He must deny that there existed any alarm in Ireland, ex_ cept that which was nested by the Orangemen, who wished to call in the aid of the army, which had been for many years their spe cific for Irish disease; but he was glad to say, that the Catholics were near obtaining a firm footing by the acquirement of property, the extension of eduction , and the increase of members; al l' which, in the course of a few years, would oblige them to apply the only perfect remedy. (Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. PLUNKETT rose, and said, this question had been so I amply discussed that there was oat much to be added to the argu ments which had been brought forward ; but he row merely to express his opinion, and state his view of the measures pursued to wards that country, rather than with any . hope of throwing further I light upoa the question. It was a question which had been said to implicate the popular privileges of the country ; had been de nounced by lion. Members as likely to be attended with cruel con seguences to Ireland. Although throughout the debate the Oppo sition had rested upon assertion, and not proof, yet he felt even assertion raised apprehension in his mind for the consequence,. Ile would now call the attention of the House to the real nature of the measure. It had been asserted in that Mouse, as merely at- I tacking the Catholic Association; but it was, in reality, a measure which attacked all Associations, whether they were instituted for the purpose of supporting Catholic Emancipation, or of opposing it. It was not a single measure; it was accompanied by an annun ciation from the Throne that the whole question of the state of Ire land was to be taken into consideration. The Catholic Association Was merely a branch of this great question, and was, he admitted, merely a symptom of the evil they were to re:wetly. Whatever might have been the motives which had induced Lord Wellesley to wish for this measure, they could not have any objection to it, ae companied as it was by the annunciation contained in the Speech from the Throne. It had been truly said by the Hon. Gentteman who had just sat down (Mr. Calcraft), that Ireland had been ad mitted to be in • state of tranquillity ; and the Hon. Gentiansn had stated himself to be Lea loss to mink why this Measure of dis. sord and hostility should be brought forward. Ireland certainly was in • state of prosperity, and the cause had been laid before the House ; for she bad shared in the causes which had produced the prosperity of the whole empire. and by the judicious administration of that country by the Marquis of Wellesley, confidence had been restored and invigorates) : that Noble Lord had found Ireland almost in a state of rebellion ; but he had now restored it to peace and tran quillity ; he had found her a wreck, but by his judicious guidance he had redeemed her from the perilous situation in which she was plated, and so righted her, that she was row able to float in the strain of public prosperity. (Cheers.) lie could not agree with the lion. Member for Wiochilsea (Mr. Brougham), that the Catholic Association was the cause of the peace and quietness. A remark had been made by the lion. Member for Galway (Mr. Marin) which led to the conclusion that since the Catholic Asso ciation could put down insurrections, end establish quiet in the country, they ;twat also have the power of' raising them again— " L:no avulso non deficit alter. persons who hare the power to all ay, must have the power to disturb; but long before the Catholic Association intermeddled the tranquil lity of the cot.nt•y had been completely established. The people who were the most effecuml asaistanta in it were the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland, in conjunction with the country gentlemen. (Hear, hear.) It was not the Catholic Association that was the iristruinect, although they now arrogated it to themselves ; it was the Roman Catholic priests who had preached the doctrine of loyalty and peace. and not the Association. (Hear, hear.) Thi■ lie said in justice to that most calumniated set of men. (Continued cheering.) The answer to the question, why the misery was pro duced, was, that he tad not remember the period when there was so great a political excitation existing) in that country, and when there was such abundance of elements for the danger which was appre beaded. Corsidetable alarm had been raised in the minds of the inhabitants of Ireland, which had been exaggerated by d persons for dishonest purposes. The Hon. Member for ampton ( Mr. Maherly) had said. that he had lately seen the lice in Ireland more full of hope than at any period he remem or had heard of, aid asked whether this was not the greatest rheas for granting the lineation, for who could answer for the come quencee of disappointing that hope ? Brit was it to be said, be eau se they cot.lil not grant the Question of Catholic Emancipation. that they were not to make a provision against the consequet cm of the refusal. Ile would remind the House of the nature of the Association ; it was formed upon different principles from all others ; a set of gentlemen had formed themselves into a society to remedy all grievances whatever, whether of a local or general nature, that affected the people of Ireland. They take under their consideration every department of business belonging to Govern ment ; they had undertaken the subjects of Parliamentary Reform, the question of tithes, the regulation or church property, and of the adniinietratinn of justice, not merely of •he general form ; but they had established an inquisition, which extended from the highest court of judicature down to the lowest petty court of con science, and had extended their interference to the adjudication of all causes in which the Catholic population had an interest. lie (Mr. Plunk:it) hoped that this was enough for a set of men to undertake. Ile would now advert to the mode in which it was done. They had associated the Roman Catholic clergy and also the nobility of that persuasion, besides the remnant of the dole. gates of 1793. They had formed Committees, who had extended the influence of the Association nearly into every corner of the Wand ; by these titans this society, which at first was only corn. posed of twenty individuals, now reckoned three thousand. (Hear, hear.) Ile trusted that the recital he had given of their ob jects presented a case strong enough to show that it was illegal. They have stated Ireland to contain 2.500 parishes; they have de. termined that to each of these 2.500 parishes should be appointed twelve collector of this Roman Catholic Rent, and that those col lectors should be assisted in their exertions by the Roman ( atholic priests. According to this calculation, the collectors alone would make an army of 30,000, unarmed he would admit—unarmed by any thing except prayers and entreaties; but he would ask, were not this bpdy of 30,000 collectors, assisted as they were by 2.500 priests in going through the country levying contributions upon the people, which contributions were to be appropriated to the purposes • he had mentioned, acting in direct violation of the principles of the Constitution ? He would not say they were acting because if such were the case they would have been prosecuted by the law, and if so it would not have been necessary to come before the House of Commons in order to check their progress. But in calling upon Parliament to legislate for this object, Parliament was called to legislate according to the spirit of the Constitution. He would say, in the hearing of all persons present, but with deference to their situation and to his own, that such representative as semblies were altogether opposed to the nature and spirit of the Constitution. He hoped he should not be misunderstood; he did not mean to deny the privilege of persons to mumble—he did not mean to deny that they had a right to endeavour to increase their numbers through the medium of clubs and meetings—certainly not; but lie did mean to deny that any persons in t h is realm were justified in deputing other persons to communicate their reasonings and their opinions to the people. and to make their reports to them. fie would say that wherever this was done it was an encroachment on the Constitution—ass encroachment on the privileges of the House of Parliament. and directly opposed to the spirit of the Constitution. He did not wish to argue this question like a school man, and he would not say that they had merely done wrong, in prosecuting their plans, but he would say that if there were any body of men such as that which now existed in Ireland, and were &aiming to themselves the exercise of the right to represent the people of Ireland—to represent six millions of people—that body would be inconsistent with the policy of any state. The assembly the House was new called upon to consider was not only direely violating the principles of the Constitution, but wee daringly de. fying the State, in thus arraying the people. But it was not the amount of the Roman Catholic Rent, although that was enormous, of which he complained ; it was that the Roman Catholic Aseoci. ation endeavoured so to lead away every individual in the country, as to enable themselves to say we are the only fit arid proper persona to represent the country ; it is we who wield the physical force of the State. This was estate of things which no rebored person could endunt —for if such were allowed to exist, the Government of the country must be abdicating its rights, and would be altogether abandoning the interests of the people. An Hon. Member had said—" Let the Association alone, and it will fall to nothing; it will of itself die away, and the people will in time cease to contribute that rent which they can so ill afford to pay." But was his Hon. Friend serious, in making this observation, or in treating so lightly a question of' such magnitude? Could the Government of the country answer to the public, it' they left such a mass of physical force to he drawn out and strayed, without taking any notice of it ? If the beet men that had ever lived had come forward to wield the phy. anal force of the State, he (Mr. Plunkett) would not consent that the Government of the country should put the power of so dodog into their hands, unless they were under that control under which every person ought to be, and under which every person Is to whom any such responsibility is attached. Butt the persons who boast that they can bring forward a whole people at their beck, who shall stop them in their proceedings ? 1l ho shall have the power to re. dress any wrongs they may commit—by whom shall they be tried, or to whom shall they become answerable ? If the Government thought proper to bring forward the whole physical force of the country, the country itself would direct how it should be done ; this C a tholic Association unites in itself the legislative and the executive. In our mixed Constitution, our popular Constitu. tion, which was so regarded because it w as so d eserv i ng of re. Bard, it was thought better not to permit an y ouch power; but although the powers of Parliament were vary great, what would they be If they had the power of sammnning themselves at will, of acting as they pleased, and of dismissing themselves at pleasure? What other power would then exist? Would not the Parliament become omnipotent, and would not every other power be swallowed up is the Commons of England ? Vet these persons, this Catholic Association, met when they liked and where they liked—acted just as they pleased, and held a sway over the people of Ireland. as un limited as that of any Monarch over any state. He would inform those Honourable Members who knew but little of what was passing In Ireland, that a powerful despotism, —more powerful than that of the sword or of any law,—was exercised by this Catholic Am°. elation, over the minds of the people of that country. They were going into every House, and into every family, with a total want even of decorum and respect, while it required no ordinaty degree of courage to face them. Their numbers had been thus in. creased by a set of unwilling conactipts, and had swelled to the amount of three thousand actually assembled, embrac. ing within their limits persons of high rank and consequence in Ireland. There was only one topic more on this subject, to which he would revert, and that had been so ably touched upon by the Right Honourable the Secretary for the Houle Depertment, as to render it only necessary for him to say a few words. It sespeoed the adtninistration of justice ; and he could not conceive any ! F eta l % so opposed to the administration of justice ash the system on which he hsd been commenting. Who are those who claim to represent the people of Ireland ?—and whom do they claim to represent why no leas than six millions of the community. In their claim GI so representing the people of Ireland, they arrogate to themselves the right of denouncing, in the name of' the people of Ireland, all persons against whom they have any animosity ; and of bringing to the Dar of justice all those who may have been concerned in any illegal acts that are calculated to offend the people. Is there any person, lie would ask, who, under these circimstancea, could go to trial with a fair hope of justice, when such a powerful body was arrayed against him, supported as they were by talent, and backed by the money that had been collected from the people of Ireland? It would certainly end in this—that the Jury who were to try such a person would feel awed and abashed in the presence of this body, or that they would, on the contrary, feel irritated and vexed at their proceedings., and array themselves against them, Ile (Mr. Plunkett) did not know which case wou'.t be the most lamentable. The courts of justice would, there. fore, become arenas in which the angry passions would be whetted, instead of being places where justice should be equally administered between man and man. Under tins state of things, Lord \Wellesley was forced to submit himself to the heavy imputation that he did not think it proper to let the Catholic Association expire of itself, but called upon the Government of ' the country to assist in putting it down. One word more as to the ' Association. Was it to be supposed that, formed as it was of Roman Catholics, it would be tolerated by the Protestants ? Of what materials were the Protestants conceived to be composed, if' it were expected that they could remain for any long ecriod quiet spectators of this array ? Would they not also form themselves into some Protestant eweetiation, and so act as so be prepared to resist any attempts that might be made to harms them? He would admit that it was not at present the intention of the Roman Catholics to proceed to any violence; he was sure that they were tranquil as well in intention as in act. This was his perfect persuasion, but they might be placed in such a situation as not to be able to follow their own determination. a situation where they must .of necessity tie at the behest of those who were their leaders. He would not say that there was arty in. mntion of violence even on the part of those leaders.—it was his belief that such was not the case ; but they, too, might be placed under such circumstances, as not to be their own m isters. If any desperate man were to conic forward, he might take the lead, and those persons might then tie like those who stood upon the brink of a precipice, and who were pushed forward to thew ruin by the crowd behind them. This was not an exaggerated picture. He re menibered what had been done in consequence of the election of 2.000 persons, who did not conic forward because of the Insurrec tion Act ; which Act, he would observe, was framed by one of the best men that Ireland ever saw,—Lord Kilwarden,— who was equally an honest man and a sound lawyer, and who sealed his principles by his death ; for his last words, when he was massacred, in 1804, were, that no man should be prosecuted for his murder. except in strict conformity to the law. That act, however, only provided against delegations; but when, in. stead of Committees, aggregate meeting.' of the people were called, professing to act in the name and on the behalf of the people, how necessary was it that some means should he resorted to, to provide a remedy for a growing evil. But it was menial that Parliament ought not to apply thus remedy, because there was another way-- by granting the question of Catholic Emancipation. He would take the opportunity of stating his feeling on this subject ; he would state it to be now as it had always been. He considered the measure as one without which every other in Ireland must be inef fectual. (Hear, hear.) lie thought it a matter of right and of justice, and that it would baffle human ingenuity to find a single argument against it; he deeply deprecated the deferring it fir a single moment, and he thought the longer it was deterred, the more difficult it would be to avoid granting it. Early in life he had seen and felt the necessity and importance of it, and as he ad vanced in life. he became more and more convinced, not only of the policy, but of the urgency of the measure. This sentiment I • 1 $ r. 14 • s . T. iii , kik 4 1'