The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1824-02-28 00:00:00

Ii ~~ up to the public by some of the newspapers, in a manner on which be would bestow ne epithet, because of the conduct which he pursued au the trial of Charles Flint • and he (Sir J. Wrottesley) thought that no man could bear suchabuse—rio undeserved and so unjust, without instituting some proceedings against his abusers. After hearing a full explanation, the Magistrates agreed to thoeeresolu atone which were so honourable to the conduct of his Honourable • and Learned Friend. Though he (Sir J. Wrottesley) himself was fully satisfied with his conduct, he objected to their being placed Oa the records of the court, Or advertised ; and before he signed them, he stipulated that they should not be advertised. The pe tition, however, being now brought beforethe public, he would take the sense of the House upon it, though .he should stand almost Saone. He meant not to disparage the conduct of any portion of the , Angie/racy ; but of this he was sure, that none excelled, take all England th rough, the attention paid to their duties by the Magi:i ts acy of the county of Stafford. Sir R. WILSON said, that although he had attentively listened to all that was said by Gentlemen at the other side, and by the Honourable Member for Surrey (Mr. H. Sumner), who seemed to think that orators and rhetoricians alone were to be heard,—al though he had also heard from the Attorney-General, answers to some of the allegations contained in the petition, yet he (Sir Robert Wilson) must say, that there were many other allegations which were not answered. He himself knew nothing of the case ; and therefore wished the petition to be read, in order that he might be able to decide on what future course lie should take. He under. stood fmrn what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend the Save. tary for the Home Department, that he could repel all the allegations contained in the petition ; if so, he (Sir R. ifilson) saw no rea son why the petition should not be brought up and read, in order at once to decide upon its reception. It would be establishing a •bad and dangerous principle to refuse hearing the petitions of any portion of the community, when they respectfully stated their grievances and complaints. In fact, to do so would be to violate the provisions of Alarms Charles, which secured that inestimable trea sure to all classes of the people. If the allegations of the petitioner were erroneous, and if, as he understood, they could be at once re futed, it was the duty of the (louse to let the refutation go forth to the world, together with the charges, and thereby defeat the ob ject of the petition, if it were wrong, and do justice to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Cbetwynde) by permitting a fair jus tification of his conduct. Mr. W. IINNN was decidedly adverse to the petition being brought up. It was contrary to the whole usage of Parliament to receive a petition filled with calumnies and aspersions against any man, much less a Magistrate, and a meniber of the House. It was the duty of all Members, as long as Parliament was Parliament, to pledge themselves for the contents of those petitions which they pre sented. (Cries of " Hear !" and "No, no !" from the Opposition benches.) Such interruptions were not courteou s. and if again re peated, he must appeal to order. (Hear.) It was the duty of 3lem- ' ben, he repeated it, to pledge themselves for the contents of the petitions they presented. (Cries of " Hear!" and " No, no!" from the Opposition benches; returned by cries of " Hear, hear !" from the Ministerial benches.) Yeti:lists were not to be brought up as matters of course--they were not to be received as matters of course—and Members, in presenting them, were bound to pledge themselves that they contained nothing offensive to the House. (Cries of " Hear !" from the Opposition benches.) If the Hon. Gentlemen who thus cried out " (sear!" had only al lowed him to have gone on, he would have finished his sentence, by saying that which they now thought proper to cheer. Ile had listened with attention to what fell from the different speakers, but he did not rest his opinion against the reception of this peti tion on that alone. The object of this petition was to question a legal trial; and by whom was it questioned ? By the object of its punishment, complaining that that punishment was vindictively inflicted. If petitions of that nature were to be received as matters of' course, all persons legally convicted would send petitions to this House, and fill them up with calumnies against Judges and Juries. It' a complaint were instituted 'against any proceeding, there was a court of appeal in criminal proceedings to the Court of King's Bench; there redress might be obtained. And again in cases of alleged grievances, impeachment might be instituted, and charges preferred against any judge fur comiption or malversation of judi. cial functionts. (Hear, hear, front the Opposition.) 'ln the adop tion of any course of proceedings which were usual in similar cases, be had no objection, if a case of impropriety could be sustained, but he could not consent to the entertainment of every petition in which an individual might think proper to vent vague and idle accusations. _ . Mr. BRIGHT was of opinion that it appeared from the expla. nations which had been given that no blame attached to the lion. Member for Staffordshire. However, he was desirous that the present petition should be entertained, for he was of opinion that the question was one which was less important as it related to the conduct of a Magistrate than as it involved &point of Parliamentary right. If the present petition were rejected without being read, its rejection would amount to this—that the people might write peti tions, but that they should not be presented, and then lion. Mem bers would be obliged to confine the petitions of the people to their pockets. It was not a satisfactory mode of disposing of this petit thin to say. that the language in which it was couched might be disrespectful Besides, the term disrespectful was of doable im port in this instance. It was one thing for the language to be dis. respectful to a Magistrate who was a Member of that House. and another for it to be disrespectful to the House itself. (Hear, hear.) Provided the petition was couched in no disrespect. tail language to the House itself, it ought to be entertained by Parliament, which was the grand inquisitorial inquest of the nation, and to which those in the higher grades of society, as well as plebeian subjects, were amenable. Let the petition be enter tained •, if the allegations it contained were true, the House should determine what weight ought to he attached to them ; if false, let the petition be rejected. The petition had not been read, and yet an attempt had been made to refute its assertions: surely it should be read before Hon. Members knew what to answer. Should it be known that a petition, setting forth such a grievance as the present was supposed to complain of, was rejected by the Hasse of Com moos ? Another point to which he was desirous of directing the attention of the House was, that the rejection of this petition would amount to a prohibition on any subject to present a petition for the repeal of a law. If this House possessed the right and authority of making laws, and if the subject found this law oppressive, it would not be contended but he had a right to apply for its altera tion. That was the case of the present petitioner. He presents a petition ; that petition states a grievance; let then the grievance be inquired into; let the House trace it to its origin, and, if after in. vestigation, they found the law to be oppressive, let it be repelled. The House was not called upon to exercise judicial but legis lative functions ; but what was the consequence by the rejection of the petition, without permitting it to be laid on the table of the House? Inquiry was stilled, and justice done to nu man. If the accusations it contained were false, it would be more satisfactory to have its falsehood ascertained after being entertained by the House, than to reject it without being heard, and affix the character of falsehood to it. Impressed, therefore, with the propriety of having petitions entertained by this House, and unwillirg to countenance • disposition to peremptory rejection, he would support his lio nourable Friend (Mr. Denman) in his motion, that the petition be brought up. Mr. CANNING wished to know if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman intended to withdraw the petition. Mr. DENMAN said, that an intimation had been made on the part of an Hon. Gentleman near him, that the motion for bring ing up the petition should not be withdrawn. As one Hon. Mem ber had the right of preventing him from withdrawing it, he should everefore forbear from saying what he should have done were he left t his own discretion on the subject. .M r. CANNING renewed his expression of a wish that the pe. t'tion should be withdrawn. If premed to a division, he would op. • pose it simply on the ground that its prayer, if seceded to, would Lave the tendency and effect of revering: and altering the ver. dirt of a jnry. Mr. PEEL (as we understood) also recommended that the peti. hen should be withdrawn, and intimated his intention to rote against it if pressed to a division. Mr. S. WORTI.ICT and Mr. H. Su MKER said a few words. The former reminded the House, that whether they sanctioned the bringing up of the petition or not, the subject-matter of it would find its way to the public through another channel. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEIIUER recommended the withdrawal of the petition. By doing so, the question which it brought before the consideration of the blouse would not in any winner be prejudiced, and would stand in the same position as though the present petition were not presented. Mr. DENMAN rose to reply. Although it is not usual on the perseedation of &petition for a Member to rise in reply, yet I hope en such an occasion as the present, i may be permitted to do so. I am 'maims to do so, in order to explain the share which I had is this businesses business which has been to me certainly not an agreeable one. It has been stated that I mixed up my feelings with those of the petitioner, and that I had presented to the House an exaggerated statement of facts. On the contrary, I confined a-polite a simple detail of the allegations of the petition, and cau tiously abstained from the expression of any opinion on wry con trenned point or disputed fact. 1 certainly had before me a cor rect report of the trill and of the sentence, and with reference to thew, and the events connected with them, I was not shy in =Lge the impression which they produced upon my mind. It . sidd by the Attorney-General that the petition only con tained allegations, whilst the Right lion. Gentleman only met that by counter-allegations, which were known only to himself, as Counsel for the lion. Gentleman whose conduct war complained et. As to the allegations of the petitioner, surely it was an insuf. &lent ground to re.ect the petition merely on the presumption of a possibility that the facts stated in it were not correct. (Hear.) It Ina enough if the petitiouer was aggrieved ; feeling himself be aggrieved it was his right to present a petition, and it was the duty of the House to entertain that petition, provided it was couched in respectful language. Moreover, it was the duty of eve y Member of that House to present such &petition when of. feed to him far presentation. 4do not say that the Sergeant-at- Anne bas aright to run atter a Member and oblige him to take it ; bat in the fair discharge of the duty which a Member owes the public, I conceive he ought not to refuse it. If a subject were pre. vested to state his grievance to this lionise, what redress would be allowed him ? Should he he obliged to present an appeal, or coo damned to the more embarrassing . mode of running Ike gauntlet of the Court of Chancery, and waning there until all the cases that stud for judgment, and the long catalogue of arrears, had been gone through. It was net because a law had been established that therefore a subject should be prevented front petitioning again •: it, Was not ship-money authorised by the regular forms allow ? Vet. an a grievance, petitions were presented and entertained against it, ' v established by this House, and if there was any in their operation, it was the duty of this House 'here is a Court in which 1 preside, and I am sure ed, were I to hesitate for a moment in having ifted. I hope no Irian in this (louse would vt from investigation inn" hie conduct. All allegations until they were exiimined into. in . ' hail its a particular instance been put in ting it an excessive judgment had been given, Theselaws were establi thing oppressive in the to earn* them. There i 1 1 1 should be ashamed, any am duct there sif sifter sourtsuch an evasion petitions depended on a ' I Jr the •• Trespass Act fete, and if in enfurcit • ----..-„ * , • , Wale tendert of theme who sanctioned it be subject to sertsion.i Mr. HUME, in explanation, said that be had uttered nothing Os one occasion I remember that a pink:like part of say conduct prtsondly disrespectful.to Lo rd Beresferd. It was .no answer to had bees severely animadverted upon in various quartets, and the ItiM to say,. that sines 1819 the establishment had been curtailed. greatest morti fi cation I felt was, that an opportunity was not then He com p that in 1819 A was three times what it ought to afforded me of vindicating it. (Hear, hest.) All the Courts of this have been. country were amenable to the High Court of Parliament. It was i Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, end the House divided. the duty therefore of this House to exercise a vigilant control over The numbers were— them, particularly over subordinate Courts, for the higher Courts For Mr. Hume's Amendment - - tad a greater security for correct conduct in being more immedi- Against it welt , subject and open to public opinion ; but the lower Courts, in Majority against the Amendment - the administration of justice, should be watched with peculiar On our eetum to the gallery we found vigilance, as public opinion was not so forcibly exercised upon Mr. MUSH/EN submitting the following resolution, which them. With the remission of the House I will withdraw the was agreed to:— present petition, solely from a dread that a majority of this House I " That a sum not exceeding 7,0291. be granted to his Majesty may vote against it now, and a precedent be thereby established for for defraying the expense of the Royal Laboratory at Greenwich.' a practice which 1 conceive to be hostile to the principles of the I It was then moved, " That a sum not exceeding 35,8411. should Constitution. However the petition may now be disposed of, I be granted to his Majesty for defraying the expense of the Ord ain convinced that the present discussion rill not be unproductive nance service on foreign stations." of some good effects on the conduct of the magistracy throughout Mr. HUME did not rise to object to this grant ; indeed he knew the country. (Hear) not how it could be lees, as long as this country consented (to The motion was then withdrawn. the neglect of a specific treaty) to keep up establishment", at its COMMITTEE OF St'PPLY. own expense, at such places as /ante and Corfu. All the expenses On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, attendant on those lonian Isles shuukt be defrayed by the inhabit the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. I ants of those islands. Sir J. WROTTESLEY wished to call the attention of the It was then moved that a sum, not exceeding 4,1431. should he Chancellor of the Exchequer to that pert of his speech on a former I granted to his Majesty for defraying the expenses of the master. evening, which related to the reduction of the 4 per cents. lie had gunners, &c.— Granted. stated that one-third of the 4 per cent. stock should be paid off in I It wee then moved that a sum, not exceeding 07,1341. be granted October, to those who did not accept the transfer of their property, to his Majesty, for defraying the expenses of the Royal Engineers pursuant to the limitation stated by the Right Honelentleman. lie I and corps of Sappers and Miners.—Granted. halareserved to himself, however, the power of paying off the re -1 It was next moved that a sum, not exceeding 247,20111. be grant maining two-thirds at his convenience :no period was a ffi xed for led to his Majesty for defraying the expences of the Royal Regis future payment, and no amount stated. Ile wished to know what I ment of A nillery. were the intentions cf the Right lion. Gentleman, as to the period hlr. HUME said, that he conceived this Regiment of Artillery and amount of future paymente. twice as numerous as was necessary. He did not mean to depreciate The CH ANCELIA )1( of the EXC'HEQL'ER said, that what the service, of the Artillery ; on the contrary, he thought it a highly he proposed was, to pay off one third of the whole stock in October honourable corps, but the establishinent was twice as numerous as next, to those who did not accede to his proposition of transfer into that which this country possessed at the commencement of the I the 0 . 1 per cents. Future payments must be retaliated by govern. French war. Now it was well known to every military man, that ment according to circumstances, and their ability to pay off with such a proportion of artillery was altogether incompatible in ex. convenience. Ile therefore had not specified any definite period for tent tot eh rest of our army. He was of opinion that the regiment future payments ; hut as to the amount, he would ray it was the might be advantageously reduced from nine to six battalions. intention of government not to pay off at one time less than ten per sir HENRY HARDINGE in reply, observed that there was cent. But this did not limit or restrict them to the payment of one difficulty which the lion. Member for Aberdeen had completely that precise portion : they might pay off more; they certainly overlooked ; and it was this, that the Artillery received no recruits would not pay off' leas. from the Militia, nor could they ; so that in the accident of a war, ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. the regiment must be completed, instead of being ready and elli- Sir H. HARDINGE rose to propose the Ordnance Estimates clan; for, to render a man serviceable in the Artillery he must un of the present year, and congratulated the House on the reduction Idergo a long course of dbortpline: he must receive a species of mi. which hid been made since last year in this branch of the public I litary education. This was an objection altogether overlooked by expenditure. The total sum to be expended for the ordinary and the lion. Member, so remarkable for his accuracy. extraordinary expenses of the present year amounted to 1,119,7441; Mr. HIJME said, that he had not overlooked that objection; which, as compared with the total amount of last year, was a but if reliance were to be placed on the speech of his Majesty, war reduction of 98,1461. in the general abstract of the Estimates was not to be apprehended. There was not even a chance of war. for Ordnance. In stating that the sum to be expended in 1824 The Resolution was then agreed to. is 98.140 L less than in 1823, it should be accompanied with the It was then proposed that a sum not exceeding 29,6901. be grant statement of the circumstance that the Ordnance barracks in ed to his Majesty, for defraying the expenses of the Royal Regi- Great Britain and Ireland, amounting to 24,0001. had been trans- ment of Horse Artillery. ferred from the Ordnance estimates to the barrack branch of the Mr. 11U31E wished to ask a question of the Hon. Gentleman, department. In the department of the Artillery Clothing and Col- whether the recent appointments of Sir Benjamin Bloomfield had lege* there would be found a reduction of 15,0001. l'owever, this not created sontedisapprobation ?He was told that Sir Benjamin had was only for the present year, as certain repairs of buildings and been placed over the heads of officers who had long been engaged in other expenses would require an increased allowance. In the I active service, and that he had been taken from the half-pay, at a store department there would be found a demand of 6,0001. less time too, when it was impossible he could perform any active regi. than the expenditure the year preceding. This diminished de- mental duty, for he was Ambassador to Stockholm. mend arose fr om the sale of stores and economical arrangements in air 11. HARDINGE, in answer to the question of the Hon. that branch of the Ordnance expenditure. As to the unprovided Member for Aberdeen, replied that the appointment of Sir Bettie estiniates of the year, they would not exceed 1,0901., and to that min Bloomfield had taken place in consequence of a regulation sum he was confident no opposition would be made. Ily the sale adopted in 1814. By that regulation, officers of the artillery sue d certain stores, a considerable saving would accrue ; and he was seeded, not according to their brevet, but their regimental rank. enabled to state that die whole of the land service of Ordnance This was the course that prevailed from 1814 till within a very few would not require a larger sum than 616.2:101. The lion. Gen- weeks. It was in existence when the vacancy occurred by which denten proceeded to ensenerate the various items of salaries to Sir Benjamin Bloomfield succeeded. The Master-General has superannuated officers, and other smaller miscellaneous estimates, since altered that regulation, but it would hare been extremely in in several of which a reduction had taken place, as compared with vithious, and indeed very unjust, to have made that alteration before the expenditure of last year. Besides, by a short method of ac. Sir Benjamin Bloomfield's, appointment. It would have been a re. counts, and a rigid economy adopted by the Master-General and trospective act, but the fresh regulation having been made, it will Board of Ordnance, considerable savings were made. No leas than hereafter govern promotion. He would illustrate the injustice of 230 clerks hail been suspended: very great additional labour was the regulation of 11814. Suppose an officer was to be selected to. imposed on those who continued in office; and various gratuities morrow foe a difficult command for that service, Sir Alexander which they enjoyed, and which were objected to in 11115, were Dixon would probably be nominated under the old system; no discontinued to them. The sum required to barracks for the pre- matter what might be the achievements of Sir Alexander Dixon sent year was 114.3311. For Ireland the Bernick estimates abroad, when a vacancy arose, some officer at home would be amounted to 134,3761., which, as comps ed with England, placed over the head of Sir Aleiander Dixon. was certainly a large sum. But he begged to remind the House, Mr. HUME had also another question to ask the lion. Gentle that the increase in the Barrack Department, to both countries, man. He understood that a regulation had lately been adopted by over last year, was created by a desire to afford augmented accom• which senior officers in the artillery were permitted to sell their modation to. the soldiers. There was a practice, unavoidable per. commissions. He was desirous of knowing the exact nature of this taps, in time of war, of having bedsteads in the barracks piled one alteration which his Majesty was pleased to make? To what ex over the other, to the great discomfort of the soldiers. However, tent did it go ? At what period of service were the officers of in time of peace. with a diminished military establishment, it was artillery allowed to dispose of their commissions? thought proper to provide them with a more comfortable accommo- Sir HENRY HARDINGE said, that the regulation to which dation, and accordingly many alterations have taken place in the the Honourable Member foe Aberdeen alluded, had taken place, arrangement of the internal economy of the barracks, to promote and it was found most beneficial. k was confined to officers of 20 that object. (Ilear, hear.) Iron bedsteads, on an approved con. years standing. They were allowed to sell their commissions to struction, had been purchased for that purpose, and the House off cers of the line. Under this new regulation, eight officers from would see that the increase in this item of the expenditure was half-pay had lately purchased into the artillery. Under the ope created by the necessary repairs, and the other causes he had stated. ration of this plan, ten lieutenant-colonels, one major, and fourteen The total of the Commissariat Store branch for Ireland was officers of interior rank, had purchased into the artillery, at an ex. 37,6621. 19s. In the various items of reduction it would appear, pense to the country? of 1011. (A laugh.) that a fair proportion had been observed in the Ordnance Es- Mr. HUME had not asked the question for sake of finding timates of both countries. After the entimeation of minor miseel- 'fault with the regulltdon; bat seam the great benefit that was laments estimates, he concluded by proposing, for the adoption of likely to arise from it to one corps, - he was desirous of extending the House, the first item in the papers laid before the House— those benefits to the marines. lie was sure that if the sinecurea 47,2331. as the salaries, &e. to the civil establishments at the bestowed upon those distinguished persons, who were never known Tower and Pall-mall. ' to then earn before they Auld it, in wider to qualify themselves Mr. HUME was gratified to see the Ordnance Estimates pre- for their sinecures--if these sinecures were distributed among sented to the House in a much more satisfactory form than they that corps, it would be only an act of justice for their long and had ever been presented to them.. The arrangement of the se- badly rewarded services. counts was superior to that of last year. Although the sum now Sir GEORGE CLERK observed, that these regulations, roposed to be voted was less than that of last yenr, yet it was too which he was glad to find received the approbation of the Hon. large for a time of peace, and was even above the standard laid Member for Aberdeen, were very speedily to be introduced into down by the Finance Committee as to what the amount of expen- the corps, which was the object of his especial patronage. They dilute in the Ordnance department shouhl be. Still farther was it had certainly all the merit which was ascribed to them. As to removed from what the expenditure had been in 1792, which was the Hon. Member's observations upon the sinecures of those of his golden era for regulating the expenses of the various insti- titers who held honourable stations in the marine corps, he should tutions of the couairy in time of e. In 1792 the expense of ternember the services fur which those stations were bestowed. the Ordnance department was only 444.0001. ; in 1824 (both They were the highest honours that a subject could receive. though years of peace) it was 1,119,7741. Although this was a decrease their honourable character had little connexion with pecuniary re of 98,1461. as compared with last year, it was nearly as great ward. as that of 1819, although the country had expected a con. Sir I. COFFIN reminded the Hon. Member for Montrose, that tinually and largely decreasing expenditure in this department. on a former occasion lie said that Government wished to turn the He would beg leave to read to the House a comparison between navy into an army ; and he should protest against it for his part. the various sum totals of the Ordnance expenditure since the He would ever defend the marines ; they had saved both the coun. peace In 1817 the sum total was 1,2311; in 1819, 1,2121. • try and the navy at the time of the mutiny. in 1821, 1,3261.; in 1822, 1,2411.; in 1823, 1,217 L 9s. ; an d Sir. HUME bore ample testimony to the tried loyalty of the in 1824 , 1,1191. ;—so that the House would see there existed marines, and that loyalty had been duly appreciated by others: in scarcely any reduction between the present year and that of 1819. consequence of it, he believed, the facings of the corps had been The) establishments at Pall-mall and the Tower, the expense of changed, and they received the additional title of royal: and he which amounted to 47,0001., he had unsuccessfully attempted to also maintained, that no meritorious body had been less rewarded; reduce during the last Session. His anxiety was that it should be it was as a tribute of respect to that corps that he opposed their in. reduced to the state in which 1796 had witnessed it. He was sorry crease; for what purpose should they be augmented ? if the entire to say, however, that hliuisters had exhibited no symptoms of • fleet were manned, more than one-third of them could not be em description to retrench. They kept up the establishment with ex- ployed. They consisted at present of 9,000 men, and only 2,000 tremc pertinacity, though it was clear that the two places were were employed ; the remainder went therefore to add to the rum wholly unneceseary. Ile had last year proposed to the House to ber of the standing army. The promotions in the body to which " reduce the situation of Lieutenant-Govemor of the Tower, and he he alluded were miserably small ; there were in the course of last was then told by the Right lion. the Secretary of War that the year but eight or ten promotions in the marines, whilst there were personal attendance of the Lieutenant-Governor was constantly from seven to eight hundred in the army. He also objected to the required. It was said that the business of the Tower could not go introduction of higher offices from the navy to cunintand them ; on without his assistance. Now how long had he been there during the officers of the corps should receive the commissions in pre the last year? flow many hours had he passed at the Tower since ference ; they must feel disgraced by being placed under the coin his appointment? If he was correctly informed, that Noble Lord mend of officeet from another service. and Gallant General had passed the greater portion of his time in Sir I. COFFIN insisted that it was the marines who were the Portugal. Now how was such absence reconcileable with the vote preservers of the navy : but for them a sailor could not be kept of the House last Sessions The Military Committee recommend. aboard a ship. He would no sooner be in at one side, than out at ed the union of the two establishments ; and what reason was there another. (A laugh) Ile had served many yaws with the marines, for refusing to unite them ? Let them be united, and he was satin. and knew them well. He never heard a single complaint amongst fled that a sa tin of 13,0001. per annum would be effected. The them respecting the matters alluded to by the Hon. hl ember. lie increase pro was not warranted ; and as this was the first time liked and loved the marines: why thedevil should he not ?(a laugh.) they were to d that they could reduce no further, he would propose He had served with then for fifty years, aid it was his decided that which at all events the union of these establishments would at opinion they had eared the country over and over. once effect—a reduction of 9.0001. from the 47,0001. proposed. Pay of the Director General of the Field TminLlepartment, 1,77111. With respect the Clerk of the Ordnance, he was quite willing toad- Pay of the Medical Establishments for the military , department mit, considering the various duties that now devolved on him, that of the Ordnance, consisting of twenty-eight persons, ,7231. was not too highly paid. The salary. however, of the principal Deduct three sultans serving in Ireland, and paid there, 8791. Storekeeper, exclusive of fees, antounted to 7301. • and that aunt Establishment of the Piotessors, Masters, &c. Royal Military would at once be Raved by the union of the two esta blishments. He Academy at Woolwich, consisting of thirteen persons, 4,2171. had evidence before him most satisfactorily to show that the sum Additional pay to Officers of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, which he received in fees was quite enormous; and in a publication for attending the company of gentlemen cadets, 353!. which he held in his hand (the Perry II ;stories) it was made a Mr. IlUhlE expected a reduction would take place in the number cause of extreme complaint that the Armory was not exhibited of cadets, according to the promise of Ministers. but on the payment of 25., which was twice the sum required in Sir H. HARDINGE said, a reduction had taken place, especi -1806. Colonel M•Mahon increased that sum of his own arbitrary ally in the number of those who received instructions. There were motion ; or if he had any authority to justify him, he should be last year 157 cadets—there were at present 127. Ile was sorry to very glad to hear it mentioned. lie should propose that a reduc. state that the promotion of cadets was slow, in consequence of the tiun of 9.0001. should be made from the vote proposed. new measures adopted in the artillery , . There were in that service Sir HENRY IiARDINGE, in reply, observed, that he was at last year 1011 vacancies, which would have given promotions to no a less to know whether the Hon. Member found fault with petal- cadets ; and these gentlemen, who were possessed of the highest cube items, or questioned the accuracy of the whole account. qualifications, were without commissions. This was caused by the Mr. HU:UK—The whole. filling up of e vacancies front the half-pay list. With respect to Sir if ENRY HARDINGE—Then he should convince the the artillery service, Government had committed an act of essential House that the proposed reduction ought not to be acceded to. injustice, at the suggestion of the }louse. The act to which he Since the year 11119 very considerable reductions had taken place : alluded, was putting the officers of that branch of the service upon there were then 187 clerks, of whom 26 had since beat reduced, be- half-pay ; this was unprecedented ;it was not dune at the close of sides the labour of the Barrack Department in Ireland, the labour the American war, nor in the year 1802. The reason the cadets of di; Commissariat stores haul been thrown upon them. There- did nut come in for a greater share of promotion was, that in the fore, now to propose a further reduction was exceedingly unge- bestowal of commissions, the absorption of the half-pay was ex menus, and he was sure it would never receive the sanction of the elusively looked to. House. As to the Raving of stores, the mode adopted had been re- Mr. IllihlE did not blame the Government; they had acted, in commended by the Con 111 l ittee of Finance last year. With respect his opinion, withfect consistency. to the absence of the Lieutenant -Governor, he thought it could be Sir lI. HARD INGE would state another hardship to which the satisfactorily accounted for. It gas well known that the Noble Lord officers of the artillery were subject. Each officer, on entering the (Bercafurd) was intimately connected with the Portuguese Govern- service, signed a paper binding himself to remain in that particular ment in the command of the army. lie was nut allowed to land service, and not to transfer himself to any other. there on his return from Rio Janeiro. Ile waited till an opportu- Command Pay. Extra Pay to Engineers, and Allowances for nity occurred ; he then applied for leave to visit Portugal. Ile their servants, 719 . 21. 17s. faL went to Lisbon in the beginning of October, and in the latter end Estimates of the Charge of the Officers of Ordnance for the of November he was written to by the hlaster-General of the Ord- United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. on account of the mince, stating that his presence here in Deeember was quite in. allowances to Superannuated, Retired, and half-pay Officers, to dispensable. To that letter the Noble Lord replied by stating, Officers for good services, to Superannuated and Disabled Men, that it was impossible for him to execute in that time the business also for Pensions to Widows and Children of Deceased Officers foe which he visited l'ortugal, and therefore he tendered his resig- I late belonging to the several Ordnance aid Military Corps foe th; nation. The Master of the Onlnance, knowing his inestimable I year 1824, 3412,31.21. 11s 9d. value as an Officer, refused to accept his resignation until last IRELAND. month, when finding that the return of the Noble Lord was still Retired Officers of the late Irish Artillery, Engineers, and Pen uncertain, and that the duties of the office - •so important as to dons to Widows, 11,0271. 13s. 3d. . 89 -70 weie require his constant attendance, he accepted the rtsignettion of the Noble Lord, and the Master-General nominated in his place Lord George Murray, which nomination his Majesty was phrased to ap prove of. (Cheers.) Ile apprehended that it was unnecessary tie him to say any thing in vindication of the character of the Noble Lord. It stood upon much too high ground to require any aid from him (Hear.) It was most desirable to retain, if possible, the services of that Noble and Gallant I Hiker, and for that purpose every exertion had been nixie to keep the situation vacant fur him. :Gr. 111 7ill.:could no . t agree that the English people had a right to pay the contributions for Jersey and Guernsey; these sums, taken separately, were but small ; but taken together they anusunted to a considerable sum. lie would make no objection at present ; but he thought these stuns should not be paid in future by the public. Ile also thought the works at Fevershatn should be given up, and he was decidedly of opinion, that every pound laid out upon these works was money thrown away. Ile conceived it to be the intention of Gortmturnt, in the year 1818, w remove the estab- }hissed fat least he had seen a memorial to that effect. He would not, however, quarrel with-Ministers at present on the sub :Ml- With war d to the colonies—Canada, for instance, it should moat undoubt edly pay its own military charges ohe only claim this colony had upon us was for the payment of to artillery and ordnance department. If we gave the province a free government it would be much better for us; neither could he conceive why the people of England should pay 25,0001. foe the expenditure of the lorian Islands. These Islands should be given up to the native Greeks, who would gladly pay the expenses which attended them. lie was glad to perceive a reduction on all these matters, which, he trusted, would be still greater next year.- 1,0901. titr various Servants of Board of Ordnance. 87,3601. for Ordnance in Ireland. Mr. recollected there were 9,0001. voted for the trigo nometrical survey of Ireland. Ile wished to know how the money was expended. There wss a!so • grant for a similar survey of England. In what state was the survey ?—when would it be com pleted ? Sir H. HARI/INGE said, the money for the Irish survey was not yet touched. As to the survey of England, one-third was finished ; the remaining two-thirds would occupy three years. Sir J. Ntit4l4llll' reminded the !louse that he hail given notice for the survey of Ireland some years since, and no result had followed; it was intended to make the survey of Ireland await the result of and be governed by that of England. He would pro ' test against it. A geometrical survey would not he applicable to Ireland. The most efficient survey for Ireland would be one corn. pitted under the eve and observation of a grand jury. Mr. 1101`1.11U RN said he had comniiiiiicatinos with the officers ; at the head of the Ordnance and Engineer Department, and they highly approved of the scientific survey for Ireland. Sir J. NEWPORT said, nine years had elapsed since he gave notice on the matter. and no results whatever had fiillowed. Mr. 1). 611,15EHT anticipated the beat consequences from the !trigonometrical survey in this country. All the triangles were !nearly laid down, and nothing remained to he done hut to till then, • up, and apply the scientific results to the common circumstances of life. people; and he must say, that he thought barraska were a more desirable mode of accommodating them than by billeting them 1 on the low public-houses in Tothill-fields or Petty France, as, if this were dune, they would be compelled to associate w it h t h e vilest dregs of London, a circumstance which he did not think eskula:ed to improve either their morals or discipline. Sir ii. HERON thought that the mischiefs complained of WOW from the maintaining so large a standing anny at a period of pro found peace ; and as far as it went to overawe the people, so far he thought it uneimstitutional. Mr. HIJME submitted that those gentlemen who wanted bar. racks ought to pay fer them ; for his part he thought the country nitght do without them. He therefore shi-ild propose an intend ment to reduce this resolution front 114,5311. to 100,0001. abating 7,avo. from the Barrack Master's pay, and 7.0001. charged for the establishment of the riding school at St. John's Wood. The House then divided— For the Resolution - - - - 95 For the Amendment - - - 38 Majority - - On the Resolution for 181,7951. for the Comniissariat Store De. partment being put-- Mr. 111 . 511: wished to have a more explicit statement of the item of 40,9901.; he was desirous of knowing how much of this was for the Indians . • how much fur New South Wales ; and h ow muc h for the liberated A tiicans. Sir H. lIA R BINGE replied to the question of the Honourable Member, but we could not collect the import of his answers from the noise that prevailed in the House. Mr. A HER IX stated there were many of the storehouses in otitlon that might be sold, as they were perf , •ctly ute.ec‘saary. The grand depot fur corns ought to beat Woolwich. as it pussessed every facility for shipping stores ; he thought, indeed, that !ha whole of the Store Department, as at present conducted, might, with great advantage, be dispensed with ; and that one military storage might be created, and placed under the superintendence of the Contmander-in-Chief, and this branch of the Ordnance might by those means be complett•ly got rid of. Sir 11. HARDINOE said that the Master-fleneral and Board of Ordnance were of opinion that the storehouses in l'ooley-street were necessary. A great part of the stores had been sent to Wool wich, where, he admitted, when they had to load an entire ship, it was the pet krable place for doing it ; but it thould be remem bered, that when stores were to be taken in for forty or fifty dif. ferent places, if you had to send to IVoolvrich it must be done by lighters, as it was necessary that they should return to the Pool to he stowed away, as it would be difficult to procure ships to stop at Woolwich to take in so small a part of their cargo as these stores generally consisted of; and this mode would be found of far greater expense than the koeping up of the storehouse,. in London amounted to. He had no great knowledge on this subject, but he believed that the method at present in use was the best. Mr. 111 A MIMI' (»alined his observations to the knowledge that he did possess, and thetefore had an advantage over the lion. Member, and that knowledge enabled him to repeat, that these storehouses are quite useless. Mr. HUME was glad to hear that a great part of the stores had been sent to the depot at Woolwich, as the tansfer would save about 711,0001. per annum to the public ; but still he was anxious to have an answer to the question he had put originally, respecting the appropriation of the 40.0001. included in this resolution. Sir H. lIARDINGE, in reply, said that he believed 20,0001 was for the convicts to New South Wales; 12,04.004. for liberating the blacks at Sierra Leone ; and 0,0011. for presents to the , lndians. Colonel FR EN. CH was of opinion, that the measure should be carried into effect at once; it should not be done piecemeal. A great benefit would, he thought, arise front the measure. The Tithe Bill would give it an additional stimulus, for it would now be particularly necessary to have the survey. 312,000/. for Half-Pay l Micas in Ireland. Mr. HUME said he found a charge of 950/. for Ballincollig. This place was utterly unnecessary, and should be at once got rid of. No establishment was kept up there. The rent was 1;2010. per annum ; and to take care of this rent, the farther sum of 9341/. was paid. Sir H. HARDING": said this pavnient could not he avoided, as the officer was a man of distinguished talent, and was sent to Ireland with the promise of his retired salary. Sir J. NEWPORT did not see the necessary connexion be tween providing for this officer and keeping up the establishment ; why not place him upon the retired list? As to the place itself, he had called the attention of the (louse to it before. lie knew there was not a less sum than 130,01101. expended upon it. Sir 11. HARDINGE said, the place was let for nine hundred pounds per annum. Exchequer Fees, 14001. Mr. DUME wished to know when the country was to be re lieved from this absurd tax ; for absurd it was, that the Treasury ' would not pay its own money, without claiming fees upon it. In the army establishment alone, there were Exchequer fees of from 20 to 30,0011. He wished to know when this absurd tax would be repealed. Mr. li BHRIES said, in the absence of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer it would he difficult for him to give the lion. Member an answer. These fees were often vested interests. and could not be done away with at once. The question was, in his opinion, full of difficulties. Mr. 111151 E said, if he was allowed • Committee on the subject, he would put an end to the difficulties, as he would get lid of them in the course of a week. Mr. lIERRIES reminded the Hon. Member that many of these fees were beneficial to the public, as they were in many cases paid by the suitor on his receiving an employment. The question, he would repe it, was difficult ; and he would nut answer for the course which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would pursue. For the expenses of the Barrack Department in Ireland, 134,3761. Deduct for sale of buildings, and rent of canteens, 22,0001. Mr. HUM E was most unwilling that the country should be covered with barracks ss it was. The barrack expense of England Majority . . in the year 1797 was 29,0901. ; contingencies for Ireland amounted On our re admiuion into the gallery we found— to 12,0001.; and at that period there were almost as many troops on Mr. ROBERTSON on his legs, opposing the BilL The Bob. foot as at present. It was unfair that the system adopted by us in Member observed, that usury laws had been considered necessary in our mighty struggle should be permit ted to remain when that all ages and in most countries. The Romans thought them men struggle was at an end. The number of barracks should be tial, and they were generally adopted in their provinces. When reduced, and so should the eateries of the barrack-masters ; and Cicero went to Silesia, one of his first acts was to establish usury yet the sums voted in that branch were increasing, if an average laws. The Emperor Justinian also established a similar system at were taken, from theear 1817 to the year Ittn. This system a maximum of 4 per cent., and to mercantile men at 6 per cent., should not be continue s; the country ought to return to its former 'hewing the necessity of protecting one class of the community state. From the year 1817 to the present year there was an increase against the avarice of the other. The republics of Italy, in their of 4,0001. The barrack-masters were also too highly paid. most prosperous state, modified the rate of interest in conformity Why, he would ask, should he receive 15s a day in the present with the profits of the age in which they lived, viz. that no person state of the country ? There Isere also allowances made to them should take more interest than he could get by trade. This for houee-rents when barracks were empty, and it was notorious that course was found inconvenient, and the lawyers of those republics half-pay officers would be anxious to accept them, and perform the made it still better for the borrower, and declared it illegal to her. duties of the station at a much lower rate. There were in Ireland row to the full extent of the profits of trade; by which means a 76 barrack-masters ; 34 of them had 10s. a day, others had 7s. 6d., man might borrow money and put it into trade, and afterwards others 55.; these sums appeared small, but in the aggregate they make profit by it. These republics were afterwards overturned, amounted to a large sum. He knew barrack-muters who resided and princes were put over them who abandoned this wise cosine, one hundred miles from their barracks. The repairs of barracks which had produced so much geicid, and the people afterwards lie cost the country last year 30,0001. ; the year before 35,0001.; and greed in wretchedness, the monied men taking every advantage of he contended that the present number and expenses should be re- them. It lad been said that there were no usury laws in Francs; duced. but that was an erroneous assertion, for there were usury lees is Sir H. • HARDINGE said that it was impossible to procure the France, Holland, and Hamburgh. The usury laws of thetlerman services of any respectable men under the salaries specified. He empire were 6 per cent., and they were in force at Hamburgh. No would appeal to the lion. Member if it were possible to procure person could lend money beyond the legal interest of the empire. Am the services of respectable individuals, particularly half-pay officers, exception indeed took place with regard to the discounting of bil s, at • lower rate than Is. a.day. Government did not obtain from but that did not affect the general question ; he thought this 0411 ry the Ilan. Member the credit they deserved, for a diminution had ought not to be the first to adopt such a ruinous measurer's the abro been effected in this establishment as far as repairs went. The ex. gationof these statutes, which protected the community from the an pense in 1822 was 13,4181. ; in 1823, 10,0001. The sum required rice of money-lenders. In the report on this subject, Mr. Preston had for 1824 was 9,0001. ; thus within that time there was a reduction given a most enlightened statement, and hod been most candid in of 4,0001. It was necessary to keep the buildings in repair, other- showing where the laws against usury were evaded ;he told the wise government would have to build new barracks in a short time. Commiuee that bankers lent money at 10 per cent - in this way,— li the Honourable Member (Mr. Hume) could point out any in- they lent 10.0001. to a customer with an understanding that I e was stance in which the Board of Ordnance had done wrong, it should only to draw 5.0001. out of their hands. Jews, and pesos a con be remedied. lie must contend that the establishment of a netted with them, he also stated, evaded the laws; but that was no riding school at St. John's Wood was necessary, if it was required argument in favour of the abrogation of them. The Usury Laws that the education of the army should be consistent and uniform ; were first established at the Reformation, and they came into %w -and if the necessity of the riding school was conceded, he was pre- ration in the reign of Elizabeth. He would ask the House to pared to show that the estahlishment could not be conducted on a look at the state of the country before and since they were establish. more reasonable scale. blished. Subsequent to their estublishment the country had gone on Colonel DAVIES said, that there were barracks kept up now, in a progressive state of comfort and prosperity. In Europe there was where there was no chance of troops ever being quartered. He was no state that the House could draw an example front, as to the result astonished at the charge of 84,0001. for the barrack service in Ire- of the abrogation of these enactments. The law of the National Con land. It was difficult to may, without some detail, what part of this vention of France, that declared money was goods, was the only es. expense was unnecessary ; but he felt convinced that the sum of ample toguide them in Europe. and wretchedness that was produced 84,0001. was too much. It was quite absurd now for members might be recollected by many who heard him. When the Usury Lairs on his side of the House to move amendments, as they were sure to were abrogated, money would not be lent by the year, but by the find themselves in a very small minority, but he must state that month, week, or even day, which brought on misery to the pople if Parliament did not watch these proceedings more narrowly than that could scarcely be contemplated by those who had not expo. it had done of late, great abuses would spring up. rieneed it. China was the best example, and she gave a Imam that Sir H. HA it DINGE obeerved, that it was impossible to furnish this country might profit by. TI-. interest of money in China (We eny further details than what the House were in possession of. The tuated from 2} to 30 per cent. ; which system brought property resolution was founded on the estimate of a Board of inspectors into a few hands, and destroyed the middle clam of society ' • and selected from O ffi cers of Engineers, men of honour, and who had that would be the case in this country if the measure of the Hon. no motive for deceiving Government, but be certainly defied any and Learned Gentleman should pass into a law. Great stress had person to detect errors unless the the local details were known. With been laid by the supporters of the Bill on the notorious factsf the regard to the pay of barrack-masters, it should be recollected that present law being evaded by annuity brads, for which Di intclzat these were officers in the army, chosen from the Half-pay List, and of even 12 per cent. is paid. But Mr. Preston had said that • mil k was well known that they were obliged to relinquish their half. lion • year was the extent of these grants ; and at no period had pay while holding any other employment under Government, and, there been more than five millions out in annuities by this system. therefore, he did not think their pay was too high. The country believed that the House would not entertain the ma- Sir J. NEWPORT said, that if the number and state of the sure otherwise the table would have groaned with petitionsagainst barracks in Ireland were now brought before the House, he was it. It would make the greatest difference to the landed interest, convinced they would be condemned. Most of them were built because the persons who at present lend money on land, and who during the war ; and now they were of no sort of use, being chiefly are happy to have it remain at five per cent., would, on the abro unoccupied. Where, then, he would ask, was the necessity of gation of the statutes in question, demand six or seven. The such an immense charge for their repairs ? He wa s convinced the Usury Laws were useful in every point ; and they did not interfere whole was a notorious job, as many of them were built within the with discounts, as was imagined. Mr. Gurney, a great bill-broker, last 12 or 14 years. said before the Committee appointed to consider these laws, that Mr. (1011eBURN was surprised that the Honourable Member ha never found a difficulty in discounting bills, excepting in one should complain that there had been no detail of these barracks, as year, when the Governtnent had borrowed 120 millions. This it must be-within the recollection of the House that about two shewed that the laws were not injurious, but that they opposed years ago a statement had been laid before it, of the number of avarice. The lion. Gentleman concluded by praying and entreat. barracks in Ireland, and an exact calculation of di - number of into ing the House to consider well before they destroyed a system that and hones they were capable of receiving ; he therefore thought had prayed of the greatest aervize to the country for centimes, and that Honourable Members were going too far, in saying that the well to reflect that when once destroyed they could not put them (louse was completely in the dark as to these particulars. And It again in force. The mischief would then be done, and if they should be remembered, that during the war accommodations were thought lightly of that mischief, he implored Gentlemen to look made for the reception of 117,000 men. The troops hi Ireland were at the state of Asia, where no laws against usury existed. The now reduced to 26,000, consequently the greater part of the bar- , lion. Oentlentan then moved, that the Bill be committed that day racks must be unoccupied. ' six months. Mr. 1110111:0USE wished :to Impress most earnestly on the I Captain 31 ABERLY did not rise to go into • history of Noble lard (tralinerstin) and the House, the objection that he had ancient times, but would confine himself to the present. The first taken the other night to the converting the Mews into bedecks ; lie I point to be considered was, were the laws 'aline ? To decide that could now state, that a petition was now in the course of signature I they were, it was necessary to prove that the legislature could know among the inhabitants of Weatutinster against this nuisance ; he I the real state of every borrower as well as he did himself, betbre it certainly, as had been stated by his Hon. Friend (('ol. Davies) I could be fairly inferred that it ought to fix a maximum on interest. felt the difficulty of now getting up a division (laughter); but ! The next question he would ask was, if the Hon. Membee's the Noble Lord knew that in 1819, fifteen or twenty divisions had alarms were well-founded, how dial it happen that money should be been comets) on the 'subject of the erection of barracks. The House I lent at less than 5 per cent., even at 2 , 1 ? The next point to which should remember, that since the year 1315, there had been voted he would advert was, that the law was good. it was ineffectual for for this serviee, for England, the sum of 1,299,0001., and for every day its enactments were infringed. The most frequent in- Ireland 1.314,000 L, making a total of 2,013,0458., for doing feingements of the present statute was, by money advan.d in con that which, at a former period, any Englishman, deter. tinuation, by fictitious sales, and by money advanced on annuity. mined to be free, would not have submitted to. lie The law was unjust, impolitic, and ineffective, and therefore he wished to know how long this system was to last. Ile should vote the the Speaker's leavirg the Chair. very well recollected the occasion on which the troops were Alderman El' GATE was anxious total a few wor la on the int first put into the Mews. He then thought it wrong; but portantquestion which was then before the House. It hail been argued he supposed the were now to be confirmed there to overawe that the L'sury Laws lost their effect, hawse the interest of money in the people. Twit is the motive; and no one in that House London anal elsewhere, was frequently less than five per cent. He would get up and deny it. He felt are that England' would read part of the report of the Committee of May 13, 1818. at the present time, slid not require that control, as every oae It stated there was no necessity for repealing the Usury laws mug acknowledge that the best and most loyal sentiments ex- while money could be procured under the usual interest. This or bited among the people. Ile had often been solicited by his curved immediately a ft erwards—not from the cessation of war, but Icotins turnte to bring dais grievance before Parliament. They from circumstances connected with the Treasury. lie would ask complained that they were awoke early in the morning by the who were the persons . who brosight this question forward; were beating of drums, which, although it might be very necessary for they landed or were they connected with mercantile the purposes of discipline, was still felt as a great nuisance by interests? 'o. They were lawyers and capitalists---the very Ithose who very not of the military order. He almost questioned lest people in the world whew opinions he would take on such a the right of the Crown to close the Mews, it having been so subject. And how were such propositions brought forward ? If, long open as a public thoroughfare ; but when he presented the persons who were allowed to name a committee, which committee petition he hail alluded to, he would argue this subject more was composed of those whothought with then,and who in their turn fully. In the ine4.l time, he trusted that the Gallant Officer nominated such witnesses as they thought proper. lie (Mr. Her would suspend this resolution, or state some specific reason for gate), before he had the honour of being a Member of the House, the adoption of the Mews for such • purpose. was himself once asked to give evidence on this v subject. Ile Sir 11. HARDING": said that he woitld not then argue the said he did not agree with them in opinion, and ery the reply was— question on its constitutional bearings, with the lion. Member for Oh then, stay away. "fhey ought to have had witnesses on M'eetiiiinster ; but the lion. Member for Aberdeen had can- such Committees very .:11Terent to those they selected. It had been Iplained that the soldiers were separated front the people. It j asserted in the House, and it had gone over the country, that in should be recollected that this was done at the request of the no other land whatever was there Usury Laws existing. The fact The resolutions were then agreed to, the House resumed, and the Report ordered to be received on 3imular next. ORDER OF THE DAV.—L`StRY LAWS. On the Order of the Day being called, Sir R. HERON wished to ask the Ilan. Member (Mr. Sergeant Onslow) whether he would persist in bringing on the qnestion of the Usury Laws, at so late a period of the evening, when many Iklembers had been engaged for more than nine hours ? Mr. Sergeant ONSIMW stated, that on Friday last he had postponed the question at the request of both the supporter and opponents of the measure: he could not consent to any further postponement, as the hour was by no means so late as to render such a step necessary. (Cries of •• Go on, go on !") The SPEAKER was about to put the Order of the Day, when a division was called for, and strangers ordered to withdraw, when there appewed— For reading the Order of the Day - Against it . . as - Y 1 1