The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1805-04-30 00:00:00

3110(14 to ; the one from the Earl of Buckingham shire to Sir Andrew S. Hammond ; and the other from the Earl of St. Vincent to the same Gentle man, in which his Lordship stat es, that " th e whole of t he expence is to be paid by the Treasury ; I do not, therefore, see any occasion to have it submitted to t he consideration oldie Lords of the Admiralty." Sir A. HAMMOND then observed, that from these letters, it was evident the Earl of St. Vincent was acquainted with the purpose to which this money was to be applied. Mr. GREY said, from the very great respeilt which he had for the Noble Earl, and which he should ever entertain, he felt himself called upon to state what came within his own knowledge ; it ap peared, from these letters, that the Earl of St. Vin cent had declared the expence was to be defrayed by the Treasury ; he assured the House that he had his Lordship's own authority, who said he would sooner resign his office, or, to usehis own expression, he would sooner put his hand into the fire, than ap propriate the money belonging to the service of the Navy to any other purpose whatever. Si r A. HAMMOND observed, there was no thing in those papers to that purpose. Mr. GRE.Y replied, it appeared that those papers were not proved. Mr. SULLIVAN said, that the Earl of St. Vin cent was thoroughly acquainted with the whole of the business, for the secrecy and expaditinn of which he had directed Sir A. Hammond to take the niat ter under his own particular direetion ; IL. (Mr. Sullivan) explained the nature of the Navy Bill, to his Lordship, and the manner of paying Clem; and his Lordship informed him, that the money would be paid into the bank of Messrs. Hanamersleys, to answer the purposes of secret service ; he, there fore, disavowed the idea of the F.arl of St. Vincent having denied any knowledge of the transaction at that pat ticialar time. Mr VANSITFART thought he could throw some light upon the subjed : the Earl of Sr. Vin /cent always expressed an unwillingness that the money belonging to the Naval Services should be appropriated to any other purpose. He considered the explanation of his Right Hon; Friend pettedly satisfactory; and, with resped to the Hots. Baronet himself, he was convineed the documents which then lay upon the table, completely proved that any charge which had been brought against the lion. Baronet was wholly void of foundation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex pressed great satisfaftiena at the papers having been read ; he was satisfied it had been right to have these papers read; for a general opinion had pre vailed, and the natural p ejadice was, that Sir A. Hammond had issued money for services which he did not know any thing about. The case, however, turned out to be mosey issued frr a service unpro vided fur, if not paid oat if the Naval money. Mr. FOX asked, wheoler it were possible that the Earl of St.Viocent should know nothing of the Stone Expedition? or was it possible he would suffer motley to be issued, and an expedition to go on which he did not approve of? Some Gentlemen had said that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Grey-) iatended to stifle the business, and prevent further investigation, by the motion which lie proposed. The titles of those pa pers had been read, without any koowledge of their conteios, and the Hon. Gentleman had grouoded his totalities urns that which was found to he false. tlis Hon. Friend and himself did surmise, that if ..,use pipers were requisite, other papers also might be equally requisite; for which reason he wished the order sbosld be expunged. But he would put the point fairly to the issue, and let the Noble Earl himself be personally examined, who had already Oven so clear and explicit evidence upon the sub- Jed. With resped to the Hon. Baronet, there cer tainly must have been some inaccuracy in the transaflion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re plied, he could not see on what principle the erder was to be rescinded, unless for the purpose of stilling the business. Ile desired, therefore, in or der to elucidate the snbjad, that the question, put by the Commissioners to the Noble Earl, should be again read. The Clerk of the House then read the question ready as follows: With respect to the 14,0J01. advanced by the Navy !.) Mr sut, lialninersteys, between the 18th of February and Oa It Ist of ti!rril. 1604, ftn• Secret Services, had the Tre.uutcr any bowls* of any such Secret Service for which such motley had been 1" (A rev k w ! ) Moser. Know.; of no Secret Smite for which any nit.sey was issued. (Another try Afar! attar I hear !) Mr. PITT then asked, what was the real sense in which this answer was to be taken? and what could then be the objed of expunging the order ? The Hon. Baronet it least should have an opportu nity of explaining himself to the i louse. Mr. GREY considered the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman were a wilful misrepresen tation of the fag (4 load cry of het.r ! h e y! order ! order ! Chair ! Chair ! eras re-echoed front all when interfered. He observed that • use of by the Hon. Member House. . regretted, that he should say any could • • the disapprobation of the of the Right Honourable him the expression ; it was St i Ile enquiry upon any subjed t would hate been but candid Gentleman to state what his ; to rescind the order were when iisertion. He considered it had eyed ; a letter had been moved ot inclosures, and it did not ap inclostrres were. For these reasons sang! the order, and he appealed to 9entleman himself, he appealed to papers ennved-kir in such some furthest explanation ? could it be *ill , that his enquiry ? that Jet his representation of y. he still persisted in it, and the ohjed ef the Honourable k enquiry. said, the Earl of St. Vincent sedition, and did allow the naval service to be appro. words in explanation. that the question was dis. tinftly !elating to the Ulm of 14,0001. advanced from the navy to Messrs. Hammetsleys, for secret service. Sii CHARLES POLE explained. Mr. HORHOUSE wished that the papers should be printed for the perusal of the members ; much had been said upon the subjet, a vast deal of heat and clamour, of crianination and recrimination, and other arguments had been made use of on both sides ; but he did not hear on: argument which could shew any reason why those papers ought not to be printed; he knew of no evil which could arise, or any mischief which would result from it. He had a high respell for the talents of Earl St. Vincent, in the administration of naval affairs ; he knew no thing of the transaCtion, and was peril-City content ed with the explanation which bad been given; he trusted therefore that no distention would take place on the subjen, and that the papers would be printed without further opposition. Admiral MA RKHANI said, that Earl St. Vin cent, Sir Thomas Troubridge, and himself; had per feft knowledge of the transaaion ; he recollefted mentioning the subset tohis Lordship, and observed at the same time with how little secresy it was conduCted ; it was publicly known and talked of from one end of the river to the other, and they were all of opinion it could not succeed, to which observations his Lordship replied, " You and I have nothing to do with it, the Treasury pays for all." Lord DTJNLO wished to know whether the ques tions put to Earl St. Vincent by the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry had been written down or not Sir C. POLE replied, that the questions were merely written down to refresh his Lordship's me mory, but not regularly entered. The ATTORNEY GENi J tAL thought all the misunderstanding which had arisen hi the course of the debate, proceeded from the manner in which the Commissioners had put the questions, which were completely confused, and became quite unintelli gible to answer. (4 cry of no ! no! no!) Mr. WA RO said, Earl St. Vincent knew very well that such an expedition was going forward. His Lordship was perfedly cognisant of the Comp ' troller of the Navy's having issued money for that , purpose, which appeared evident from the letter of the Noble Earl himself to Sir A. Hammond. General GASCOIGNE made rune short obser vations, when the question WAS loudly called for. The SPEAKER then put the question : That the Papers be priu!ed, which vius carried without a division Mr. KINNAI RD gave notice of his intention to postpone his motion relative to Sir Home Popham, which had been fixed for the 7th of May, to the 15th. Mr. STURGES BOURNE observed, that a gal lant and meritorious officer had been prevented from doing his duty in the service of his King and Court tr., by this business, and he wished the Hon. Gent. would not give it asy further delay. Sir. KlNNr'sl RD replied, that it was by no means his wish to give the subject a moment's delay, bat several necessary papers we.e still to be printed, and ho was unavoidably obliged to postpone it. Sir HOME POPHAM said, that he had been now upwards of three years labouring under an op. probrium which he did not deserve ; at that time he might have been tried by Court Martial, and either condemned or. acquitted; but be has sow, been detained so long a time without coming to any decision upon the subjeft ; it was a very hard case upon him he most anxiously courted the investi gation, and he did not expect the lion. Gentleman w.iuld have put off his motion one moment after the 7th of Mat ; his ship had gone to sea without bins, and he fel extremely disappointed that any further delay should take place Mr. K INNAI,J), in explanation, again declared, the delay had occurred in the printing some papers which were esse:zial for their consid, ration, and he could not, in justice to the house. bring forward the business till those papers were ready. Sir HOME POPH NI replied, that he under stood they had been printed and delivered before the holidays . . Mr. KINNAIRD said they might he printed and delivere.!, but he could not bring torward his motion till after the holidays . . Sir WILLIAM BURROWES wished the mo tion should stand as it originally was ; and, Mr. KINNAIRD repeated his reasons for post poning it. The question, therefore, stands over for the 15th of May. Lord A. HA‘IIr.TONI gave notice that he would, on Thursday se'nnight, move the House that the Petitions relating to the Corn Bill should betaken into consideration. Lord HENAY PETTY gave notice that he would on Wednesday next move that several Papers relative to the Civil List of Scotland, hut mo•e par ticularly those relating to the warrants issued by the Barons of the Exchequer of that country, should be Laid before the House. COMMISSif , N OF NAVAL ENQUIRY. The CIIANCELLOR of the hiX(IIEQUEII rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move for leave to bring in a Bill for continuing for a limited time the powers granted by Ad of Parlia ment to the Commissioners appointed to enquire into naval abuses. Though he could not in his con science approve of all the ads of these Commis sioners, he observed that in the progress of their investigations they had brought to light matters of such serious and essential interest to the concerns of. the public, that the pursuit of their enquiries Ap peared it: be most highly necessary. The Bill, be said:would be exaftly a continuation of the former Ad, to which he should not offer any alteration. Mr. WHITBRg AD thought it rather inauspi cious that the Right 'Hon. Gentleman, in this early stage, should introduce his motion with casting a slur upon the conduct of the Naval Commissioners, at the 'moment that the public voice and opinion exempted theirs from the smallest share of disappro bation. The only objedionable point which struck him in the constitution of the Commission was, that it was not possessed of powers adequate to its ob jell. Delinquents were enabled hitherto to brave its authcirity, and refuse to answer questions which they 'conceived might tend to criminate themselves. If, in the course of their proceedings. they had done any thing which was deserving of reproach, the Rt. lion. Gent. would have dons better to propose a vote of censure on them, for the three or tour , points in viai.l he differed from them in oin.non. . . 4 . • ---•4111■14 than to continue their powers while he condemned their conduit. For his part he wished the Commission to passes: ertheordinary powers, and that it should not rest with the person examined, whether or not he should answer any questions that it might be thought necessary to propose to him. To conic at the truth, and obtain a thorough knowledge of whet was the objet of inquiry, was not attainable with the restridion new in the AI ; and as he was desi rous that there should be no prereflion ag that an swers being given, he moved as an amendment to the motion, that after the word " continue," the 'fords " and amend," may be added, as that would give a greeter latitude for the arrangements. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE'.I replied, that when a Member moved for the con tinuation of a Commission, the good services of which no mart could deny, he could not be debarred of that liberty of speech which was allowed on all other occasions. In exercising that right, he WAS at liberty to erpress his opinion of the condun of the Commissioners on some patticular points, and could not disguise that he could not altogether approve of it. He wished them to retain the powers they al ready possessed, and if further powers were thought necessary, he conceived the proper method WAS not taken in this amendment, as the objet might he better attained by a specific motion, or by instruc tions moved for to the Committee. He wished to have every full explanation given in the progress of these enquiries; butt he would not disguise, that he felt the utmost reladaitee to trespass, in any way, upon the sacred and constitutional rule which pre vailed in every Court, of not obliging any examinant to disclose matter which may tend to criminate him - self. It was that sort of innovation, which he could never countenance ; and if the House would allow the Bill to be brought in, there was a variety of stages in which that point may be discussed. - Mr. FOX thought it very extraordinary and un precedented in the annals of Parliament, that a Mo. non for continuing a commission of this kind should be introduced in the language of disapprobation. Such an opinion must be an impediment to the scope of their transadions. If they had misconducted themselves, their Commission should not be re newed ; hut, at all events, this WAS not the proper opportunity of stating any errors, supposing them to exist. If they were wrong why not speak out boldly ? The Minister, on the other hand, seemed to Jtrt hint a fault, and hesitate dislike, Willing to wouiail, but ye! afraid to strike." 'Was this a time to find fault ? Was it right to place men in stsch . sacred situations, and at the same time cast an obloquy upon them ? He was in favour of the Amendment, because he did not think that by the Order as now moved, the House should cramp itself in the mode of its proceedings. He de dared that no admiration of the result of that•Conie mission, whatever pride he might tale in the resat it had produced. neither these nor any other consi derations should ever induce him to trench on the sacred privileges of Englishmen, never to be obliged to criminate themselves. He wished every man examined to have the full protection of that este. hlished principle; bat he must contend, that no man high in office should do otherwise than &counte nance and dismiss any person who should avail him self of that plea. It may not, perhaps, be advise eble to,presecnie awl] persons always in a court of law, but that was »o reason why they should not be dismissed from office. A Nobleman, or any other of great fortune, might entrust the management of his affeirs to a steward or a footman ; but if that see ' vent refused to answer for his conduct, would any min continue to trust him and keep him in his ser vice afterwards ? It was the ditty of every servant to give his master a fair and faithful account of his affairs, and it must be allowed to be a breach of duty to do otherwise, whether it regarded private or pub lic expenditure. That being clearly understood, he would allow every man his natural ngbt of not cri minating himself ; but while the Administration was in such a monstrous state, that the servants of Go vernment consider this Commission as hostile to them, the House of Commons should view it as the Representative of the public. The Commission must be, in a great measure, nugatory, if all the evi dence were to speak in the manner of Mark Sprott— ' That he wasnot bound to make any answer.' Upon the whole, he thought the Amendment a very pro per one, as no alteration could be made according to the words of the present Motion. The AT TO RNEY GENERAL observed, that as the Motion now proposed was only for a Bill, in this advanced state of the Session, to continue the powers of the Commission, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) would have an opportunity, by private communication with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Pitt), to obtain his objed, if it should be thought adviseable ; and, at all events, he might have an opportunity of moving it in the Hoes-. by an instruction to the Committee, for which rte. , son he thonelit the Amendment unnecessary. Mr. SHERIDAN said he could see no great pro. bahility of any confidential communication between his friend (Hr. Whitbread) and the present Minister, and much less could he expect that any such private communication could lead to any kind of convic tion. When the Right Hon. Gentleman took upon him to express his disapprobation of what the Corn missione:s had done, it was incumbent on him to prove their unbecoming conduct. They complained that their powers were so defective, that they could not oblige persons to answer, and certainly it did not appear from any of their reports or proceedings that self-crimination was the order of the day. The Minister would be quite at a loss to vindirate his consistency on this occasion. In the year 1735, a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Burke), now no more, instituted a Commission of Enquiry with unlimited powers, against which the present Minister made an ineffedual opposition, and the very Mr. Trotter, of whom so much had been lately said, was one of the persons examined before that commission, without being able to screen himself, under the plea of self accusation. With regard to the conduct of the pre sent Commissioners, his opinion of ;.hem was inch, that on the day after to-morrow, he meant to move the thanks of the House to them, and as he thought their conduct deserving of the highest Approbation, the Right Hon. Gentleman would find himself under the necessity, should he oppose it, of giving. what he had not yet done, his reasons for expressing his auepprobation. Mr. ROSe said, that be was always a friend to enquiry since he had a seat in Parliament, and de ied any Uentlernan to contradict tini in it. To this i~:~ . . 4.. . . vir ~.. , • ... 6/. parts of the Howe), when st The SPEAKER inter :1 Ate expressions made use could not exist in that H Mr. GREY regretted thing which could meet I 3 Chair, but th e l anguage Gentleman drew from it not his disposition to still in that House, and it wry in the Right Hon. Gen motives for wishing to rs he made such an a.sertior lw..en improperly moved ; • for with a number of inch pear what these inclose 11 , . wished to expunge die th , .. Right Hon. Gtntlenx the House, whether any a way, should not have r .ti Wt what justice then, c intention was to stifle the Mr. PIT f replied, the t the fad he what it may. I he certainly considered th Ge:oleman was to stifle c • Sir CHAS. POLE sai knew of the stone-expe, • money belonging to the r priated to that purpose. Mr. PITT said a' few FuX considered ai . --+-: MP i~~. assertion be eo•'ld look boldly and fairly, and if any Member wished to controvert him. he wished it to be stated distinctly. At one time, when he voted for a Commission of this kind, he recollected that much lamented Gentleman (Mr. Burke) contended against it, and was supported by some Hon. Gentle-aen opposite him, who, in that discussion moved that Magna Charm should be read, to sheer that by the Constitution of England no man could he compelled to criminate himself. If a servant of the public s when called upon for explanation, stood mute, he readily admitted that he should be trusted no lon ger ; but he must at the same time say, that cir cumstances may afterwarus arise to justify him in doing so. Mr. BANKES said, that if there was any de. fed in the Ad, he should be ready to eorret it in the progress of the Bill, so AS that the Commis sioners should find nothing to obstrud their pro gress. He was aware that by the amendment pro posed, and in which he should concur, very extra ordinary powers would be given to the Commis sioners ; but, he should be very sorry if this was to be made a preced •nt for any future Commissions. After a few observations from Mr. 'tire i Tla wan, and the Cis A NCZI.. LOX of the Excerroura, the ori ginal motion was carried, and leave givers to bring in the MILITARY etaalatlestroe. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in pursuance of his notice, said. he had to propose that a Commission be appointed to inquire hue. the military expruditure of the country ; the grounds and motives of which he had stated on a former day. The objects of the Commission would g) to the in vestigation of the Ordnance and Barrack Depart rnents, and also the state of the Public Military Ec. penditure of the kingdom. A very salutary Bill had passed some time ago, which put an end to that department, which was before accounted for by the auditors, but in consequence of so many years of war as had since ensued, the public arrears were consider ably increased. There was no wayasf obtaining a cot red account as far es be could see, bile by a separate commission, and he should propose that there be laid before them also,for investigation, the accounts of the Customs, in order to recover whatever minty might have been taken from the public. lie dad not think it necessary to expatiate, or go into any details at present, but would be happy to pay due attentiou to any suggestions that !night be made in the pro gress of the Bill. He then moved for leave "to bring in a Bill for appointing Corn nissinners to in quire into thirailitary exptaditare of the country, to correct any abuses that may prevail therein, and to report upon such remedies as may appear to them to be expediett." Mr. .1 Frrzeeitato and Sir JOH,/ NEWPORT wished that the provisions of the Bill should extend to Ireland, where the abuses were considered to be very gl 'ring. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he apprehended that any measure of that kind must be the subject of a separate Bill, as he did not think it could conveniently extend to IreLial, but on that point, be was not decided. Mr. FOX thought it WAS 'very extraordinary that the friends and colleagues of the delinquents should bring forwayd alto:jots for atuathee.Camamiesee o f .-., the sante nature as the Naval Commission. He confessed it was a subject which the House should look to with-the greatest doubt, and when he saw what persons were likely to name those who should ad as Commissioners, he thought every honest man should examine into them in the closest amour. He would ask, if Lord Melville, or any of his friend* had brought in the Bill for the purpose of appoint ing the present Commissioners of Naval Inquiry. would the late business e►e: have come before the House t He did not think any min of candour would say co. With regard to the delicacy of the Rigio Honourable Gentleman making such motions, he would say nothing ; but that he, wader the same circumstances, would be very sorry to aS in the same manner. Were not other 4e pirtments likely to be abused, for instance the de partment of the Treasury ? Should any suspieion arise relative to it, would the Right Hon. Gentle man bring forward such a motion as this, and at once appoint the Lords of the Treasury sovereign judges of their own cause ? if he would, no doubt they woul 1 pronounce themselves innocent. Lord CA STLER E AGFI observed, that the Hon. Gentleman who spoke before him, had said. that were he in the situation of a Right lion. Friend of his, he would not have acted in the same manner. He would ask, was it not to the honour of his Right HM!. Friend to institute such enquiries He called upon the House not to submit to such language, such insinuations being thrown out against a man. whose individual purity, and whose Administration had been the support of the country, is all its trou bles, for so many years. Mr. FOX explained. Mr. GREY ceuld not help observing, when h' heard the Noble Lord descanting on the purity of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and his administration ; that, on his opinion, there never was a period in the history of the country, in which more abate), were carried on. than in that very time. He knew very) well the Noble Lord was always more studious to ter) aside' insinuations, than to eoraradia state ments. He remembered, when the Noble Lord had; with the most becoming indignation, been busied in repelling the insinuations of a Right Hon. Gentleman. whom he did not see in his place, but now intimately counefled with the Ad ministration (Mr. Foster) —He reconened that he combated the insinuation, as he called it, of any kind of corruption being made use of for the purpose of bringing about a Legislative Union between this country and Ireland ; and coo chided by pronouncing an eloquent panegyric on the virtues of the Irish House set Parliament. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in eaplanation to this, said. he had not made any insinuations, for be had di. redly charged corruption on the part of the Noble Lord for the purpose of procuring votes. Yet to this charge the Noble Lord, who had shewed such a disoositom to turn aside the insinuation, made not the least answer. The question was then put and carried withoat a division. • YISCOUNT Mr. SPENCER 3/%124140N.: expressed his in. tention of bringing foevoud s Minims, that the At toiney General ahould Vimount *Leine, • n gpringong rurvnitro 4 .VIMIOII, max we ..xic- ":.eneral klauu4l be Instructed tn pasecuts t llklriUc, and thoasht chi Teach Report •