The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1810-05-04 00:00:00

• . WOO, and oppressive:lrby were net the 1 ,, „ teni , s couched in soil, words at these reject. an d where was the differenee between Iberia and the words a die tikition — now before the . House? The present charged the House with as. awning a privile4r which it did not pusses», au4 . which it should abandon. If they did think that it was an assumption, illegal slid iiiiroastitutioin.l„ they hod a right to express their opinion, and how " m id they 'awess it but in some such words all they had used ? Far, hoe:ever, was he from agree ing in the object of the petition.—(Hear! heart) He knew of no F rivilege which the House hard as nunied.--(//ear ! hear .')—A great deal was and shout combiiiing the clia of judge , ritc.ers j uror, and accuser, which he often heard before, but which he lie..ril, upon this occasion, with regret, because it betrayed a gross ignorance of the Con. stitu —( Hear! Hear.')—Because it was used to procure the surrender of those privileges, which, the in emtot they were surrendered, public liberty auinlel be lost.—(Hear! Hear !)—As to the de ,4,;!,,6 of those who had stirred up the spirit, he was n• t acquainted with them; but if their designs were svis, tt was the duty of IN nistera to detect and punish toria. He cautioned the House against laying too much stress upon theaccourits of public meetings, as r. ported its the palters. He could quote one instance, as a proof that they were not to be relied on with TD „,.I ) confidence; for either the papers must be wrong, ur au Hon. Member of that Home (the Wither for Oakhamptosi), most have li.xarded seine very strange assertions; The Hon. Member was reported to have said, that when the Ministers were contending for privileges,whiLli Illit not belong the Ih,asr, the Opposition hail joined in die cry s. to rink round the Ministers upon such an occasion." Hr (fir. Ponsonby) waa sure that the lion. Mem ber could have said no such thing; lie must have known that he would he one of the last men in the couutry morally round the Ministers. ( Hear, hear.) He was also reported to have said, that His MM.. %Lowers were reproached by the Opposi firm, fur not bringise.; rot the military in the first in 'Noce." The Hon. Mewl), r could not have said this, nu such thing having happened.—(Hear, hear.)-- He was also reported to have ascribed, to what were commonly called the two great parties in the Raise, the greste.t selfishness and impurity of mo tive. He (Mr. Pousonby) supposed that this most have been a mistake—fur surely on moil could arrogate so much to Inroad( air to think that he h a d more wisdom soil more honesty than the whole House of Commons—( Hear, hear.) No man could be absurd, or unjust eirough to say, that out a f six hundred and fifty-eight Members, six hun dred and fifty wire uotorious rogues---(A largh.) It iVIV.4 for those reasons that he thought the no wo rm r reports could not have been correct, and mizot not to be relied upon with too much confi de...l.. The tehi of petition was that of which the' House ought to be particularly careful; in the maintenance of which he felt that he could roots with propriety, vote Against the petition. Mr. W said, that, as the Right Hon. Gen. tleinau had attacked lion so openly, he ought to have mentioned in what paper lie had seen the re port, of which he spoke ; he (Mr. Wardle) had seen none such. Hit believed what he hod said at the meeting was this, which lie would repeat now in his place, that the Gentlemen at that (the Opposition) rode of the House, had taken an odd time to rally round the Government—that they rejoiced in the arrest of Sir F. Burdett, and that one Gentleman it panne (liar lard gene so far as to say, that, even if Mii.ie.rs had hereditary places, he would rally ruined 01e111 now. Ile did no t sa y that that side of the (louse was worse than the other. He had stated, as hr always shonl4, his sentiments, freely, fairly, and fully, upon the cancluet of public mein As to the petition itself, hr hop. d the Right lion.' Oehiliman opposite (Mr. Percival) would find the none res.ou for supporting it, that he had in the tornicr ease ; that that, as well as the Westminster petition, would be found to conaist of language, the apparent severity of which might be explained away. Nesonse, in explanation, said. that he had not accused the Hon. Gentleman, but the public new : palters ; and what the Hon. Gentleman hid ssid, win, another argument how little they item to hi , depended on.—(4 hough). Sir JOHN A OVIROTHEIL begged that the Hon. who spoke last (Mr. Wardle), would, in filure, lie more eorrret in 1141 public speeches, than, hi- nevi re lin...libation, he appeared to have loooi. When beamed that this (the Opposition) side of h., I loose hart cheered and rejoiced to hare Sir F. Laden 'wilt to the Tower, he should rather have (Petted their opinions from their voter on that soon, thou what lie called their cheers. In h.s the House had not exercised any privilege to "huh they were not legally entitled, and it was thi s leelin g which had induced him to use the ex so much mistaken by the Hun. Gentle. min. He had said, and lie repeated it again. that, tf the question was betweea the present Ministers oe , tinuing in place, and the outoverairvo of the con he would make lAA election of the first of thNe alternatives, even though it was to give them hereditary seats. He would try to have them re.. teamed by all legal a n d const it ut i ona l means , but no farther would he go ; and it loss an this seine 'lto lie wound rally round the Government, or tidier round 'be eonanteition and the House of Vinainons. There was no coins-oriem between this Coo , anient a n d the ruin of every thing dear to It 4 01• as men and Britons; their lawr, freedom, sod the Constitntion of their ancestors. Mr. W. Sams would give hi. vote on this im feetant qiiertion with as !Min as ever Ile gave %IC in Ina life; bait, considering it his indispen duty, he vetatlcl not refruto from it, or from "Nesting his Opllllol . ll. It was singular , that men, grimrally agreeing in print iple, should, upon any PI/titular question, differ tar o eerie ; yet sneli was ✓ elle•iti the present iiistanve, between his lion. end (Mr. Wa r d) an d hi m . T he H on. Gentle . 4/40Fi4tictied, that. becattse the other petition was !retired, this ought not to be rejected. He dd. Ted from him in b o th there poin t s. and in thy ape I. ;" ti tul• On the former occasion. he had found bttund to eateend for the reception of the • In the pa.soige meat °derisive in it might !' lastly, r ra th er m o te so , b e construe d to :.;.ply l, the 1 . 41, , , r of the House, in the ezeciitiOli i,i rue w.".; ht. 41 to the act of the !loose itself. II:It the lluege of this petition was still mere than the other, and be would vote for its rejec• I Lion, upou the grown' of its being so intended. There was another broad and plain distinction. The question of law, iis to the comin•ttal of Sir Francis Burdett, ss..s sub judier ; and even, in the 'opinion of the parties themselves, likely to coins ttttt ler emisideratitni, either in t'ist House, or in a Count of Law ; it ors not, Cisrdore, decent to dr. ride upon the question, as .v. is dime peremptindy no this petition. A• 4 fur the liiiiguage. no man could read it without seentg ihrt it was con structed to try to what slegree the House would sutler insult and offence to be brought to their bible. It was untrue to say the those who opposed the reception of each a paper were for narrowing the rights of the, bject to petition. He had served in Parliament O7 or 2 years, and'had never, to the ' best of his k ' Wedge, taken the unconstitutional side. He had en every question rather leaned to popu opinion, and bad a l wa y s s t oo d up f or t h e wli the subject. He had h ear d i t wil d, he l ie that the thirty of the pen/ was best preserved by guarding against its licentiousness; and the same observatiou iiii,„;ht be applied to the right of pe titioning. Licentiousness was at -bad in petition ing as in publishing, and ought equally to be discountenanced. The course he felt it his duty to pursue on this occasion, he was sure was the best, though, at the same time, he was aware it was not the most popular —our, if it came to a conflict between the contending parties, the most safe. For one side must succeed, and whoever did, the middle man was trodden under foot, and disregarded by both. He was surprised that an ' Hon. Gentleman could say, that the side of the House on which he stood, rej , iieed at the commit tal of Sir Francis Roulet ; *tiro he (Mr. S.) had taken the sense of the House on that very ques tion, and had gone forth with the very large mi nority of 152 against the motion. To make such an assertion after tine, to say the least of it, was a para dox and mistake, not consistent with any great accuracy of memory. The House was bound to uphold its privileges and dignity, by every proper means ; and he would never be one of those to sur render either the one or the other. Yet lie agreed with an Honourable Gentleman, (Mr. Gretifell) that the House had lost, mid, he was Sony to say, justly lost, great part of its weight, influence, and respectability, with the people. But they were not, therefore, the less hound to keep up and preserve what legally and constitutionally belonged to them. Though, in his opinion, the constitution of the Muse was so faulty, as to require a radical re form, and lie knew that the people would never respect it as before, till that reform to .k place; yet he wound never consent to part with those privileges, which, if once lost, would not easily ne regained, and which they were bound to transmit, unimpaired, to their posterity. It was not to those parts of the Petitiou, on the subject of , a reform of Parliament. that lie objected. He had ' mice been a petitioner on this subject I . self, end 'would gladly be the same again, as well as the moat strenuous supporters of the measure ill the House. Rut this would not induce him to participate in the degradation of the House, which the reception of this Petition would accomplish, even in the eyes of the Petitioners themselves. He again adverted to the subject of Parliamentary Worm. if the House had attended to tlii., when it had inrutedy been agitated, they would have been restored to the confidence of the people, and not liable to be treated by theni as not being their legal representa tives. H e would give a detailed vote against this Petition being laid on the table. Mr. M. FITZONSLALD was of opinion, that the House ought not to reject the petition, on account of any strong expressions. No more dangerous impression could, at this time, he made on the people's minds. than that their fictitious would be rejected, because they contamed expressions of fensive to the administration of the day, or to thou. Members of the House who entertained high wotitn•s on the subject. He had ever held it most unwi.,•, (not denying the privileges of the House, a matter on which he did not new mean to enter) to exercise their power upon a person of the description of Jones. It was entering into a conflict from which no honour could be derived, and where triumph would be defeat. He held originally, and had heard nothing to make him alter his opinion, that the House had not a right to try for libel, and to punish the offender. Neither did he think they had acted wisely in piiiiishing one of their own number for ap pealing to his constitioeuts, and explaining his sen timents to them. To reject this petition would be to complete that tissue of impolicy which bad been pursued; for what would the 'People think of such procrediog ? He did not mean the mob assembled at a public meeting, but the middle class; the so ber, ►eflecting order of the people, who paid the taxes to Government. They would think, that, after having infringed on the liberty of the sub ject, nothing remained for the House to do, but to put an end to the power of petitioning. The right of petitioning was no 4nrobinierl claiin—it was the law and Constitution of the country. If, then, the subject enjoyed this right of petitioning against grievances, how was he to exercise it, but iu plain inn! direct terms? This was the case in the prescat petition, of which he did not like the language; but he could not con ceive how the meaning of the Petitioners could he expressed in more simple or less offensive terms,— What would Gentlemen on the other side do ? Would they prescribe the words in which Petition ers were to address Wou'd they dictate, like au inpriroarer, the language m which they must be drawn up? It wit• said t►at if this petition was re ceivod, their tables would be loaded with others, equally or more offensive; hot in his opinion nothing would so much contribute to load their tables, as its ignominious rejection. The Hon. Gentleman behind lion (Mr. Wardle) had mint unwarrantably and unforly charged that side with rejoicing at the committal of Sir Francis Burdett. Whet did he mean by directing his hos tility to that aide ? Where would he have them sit? Would he hive them go over to the other side? Of was there any thing in bring seated on any per. molar beach of that (louse, which was to draw on Membera this sort of sweeping censure? He was I friendly to all public ineen.igs and petitions, for it was by the strong expies.ions of great public bodies, that the House would be induced to adopt measures w hich would save the country. Ile would rather, therefore, encourage the exert-is.. of the rig!it to petition, thus, by rejecting this peti tinn, as.tqt Mobsters in their insidious att em pt t o take hold of certain strong expressions, for the pur pose of harrowing the right* of the subject; for it ought to lie recollected, that these were the None Moister* who Intl rebuked the City of Loudon fur petitioning agaitist the disgraceful Convention of Cithre, which haddisgtasted the nation from one rod to tile others They were the same Ministers who, when they durst not again rebuke the first city of the empire, had shut them out from access to their Sove reign, mud, while their hands yet reeked with i he blood of their country, locked sip their petition against the failure at Walcheren its the °Mee of one of their colleagues. tie could ace no danger from the en croachment of the people, nor,.. in his opnuon , did the public voice., however generally expleased, weigh too much in their decisions. A pretty strong proof of this had lately beets given. Ile WWI not afraid of too much democracy, and heitig un der no alarm nu these points, he would not consent to violate a sacred right of the people. It had been said, thwt this was not a petition but a protest. lie was not aware of the delitiition and disiiiiettuti. It certainty stated a grievance, and prayed a re medy. This they had a right to do, and the Muse had acknowledged it in the proceedings al luded to its the petition. by rescinding their most solemn judicial decisions. On these grounds, he thought the dignity of the House would be best coosulted by eisterter g this and sootier petitions. By doing so, it there were any party !indignant as was reptesente.l, their views would be 1, iistrited. add their hopes &appointed; He could not think that this was a 1110111elli for alarm, as nothing riaa gerous was indic.ited in any of the public its• etings which had taken place. • Upon the whole of these considerations, lie trusted the petition would Lie received. Mr. BARHAM explained. Mr. WILBERFORCE there was nn person more disposed than he was to treat petitioners with candour rod itidulgence. He had always thought that they ought to be slow in imputing evil ino lives, or starting at strong expressions. But, wider •Il the circumstances of this petition. he must, however unwillingly, comicientintioly and honestly discharging his public duly, give his vote for its rejection. If the House received thus, he had care fully looked forward, sod could not see where they could ever take their stand. I‘' hen they came to degrees of comperisou, it was difficult to decide, and from going a little and a little further, the acne of insult might be attained, before they coti!tl fix on a ground for rejecting petition. The various shades incited so insensibly into each other, that pass the first and they had no where to draw the line of separation. lie sow a very great difference be tween the two petitions, which had beep compared together. Where a nieaning could he properly expressed, and, instead a that, it was done iti terms the most offensive, that [minion i.tiglit to he returned to those who framed it, for the pur loose of giving them an opportunity, if they chose, to avail theinsilves of it, of expunging what Was offensive, anal of returning an capes as' of their desires in a resumer which it was becoming in them to adopt, awl befitting the House of Com mons to receive. Had this petition expressed an opinion that the acteelf tlau House asitizeallwaial and unconstitutional, and prayed them to reconsider their proceedings, then nn tine could Lave objected to it. But it did mote than th.s, for it staled, that the House had so acted, tint as an opinion but as an undeniable proposition. In the Weettiliorter pe.i tion a different course was pursued.—The first paragraph began with it is our opinion," the second and third with w we are convinced," and it ended in "we call on you." The present petition on the contrary et.ded with wwe prny." • When they thus saw the practical forms, coupled with the solid matter of offence, it would 'seem as if these peti tioners had studiously combined the injury to the Holler with the form, in order to try how far, under that musk, they could carry the insult. The Hon. rientleilian opposite, (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) in his opinion, acted rather harshly and unfairly towards his Right Hon. Friend, (Mr. Pereevul), whose feel ings and actions were strongly indicative of a high seal and regard for the public interest, when lie lic ensed him of wishing to narrow the right of the subject to petition. How could the Hon. Gent. do this. if he recollected, that when his own Friends, and even the flienits of the Right Hon. Chancellor joined iu expressing, most strongly, an opinion against the Westminster petition. Fits Right Hon. Friend had distinctly stated the dangers on the one side, and the favourable circumstances on the other. and candidly declared, that, in his judgment, the balance was in favour of receiving the petition. He reminded his Right /kn. Friend, that though the cry now adopted by the pelitioners was to favour of the popular side,yet too much ought not to be con ceded on that account ; for the time might come, when the it pet.tions would he as much agaiiist the popular interests, as they now pretended to be for them ; and in the same degree attempting to run down, vilify, and degrade the House. They must all recollect, in the history of the country. that this was the 4:44 in the iiistance of Dr. Seelteverel. In the reign of Charles 11. t he !maple were deluded into p-tibons, praying that nu more Parliaments might be assembled. Such things might happen again ; and if they now gave way, they ought to remember that they were destroying solid strength, and what he might call the triumph of reunio n and justice ; that they were subverting all that wan consistent with happiness,'stattility. and glory, to build up con f usion a n d disgraces—ll/ear, hear.)ln rejecting this petition. they were debarring the freeholders of Middlesex ho right Of privilege. They might call for the re-consideration of any proceeding of that House. The Hause would revise and reconsider their acts, and they would dolt the more fredy. if they did not alltiw themselves to bedietated to by any other body. They would review their proceedings aith that independence belonging to them, its the third t winc h o f the Le r li.lature, and the unfettered Re presentative* of the people. Ile could have a that their rejection of this petition had been accom panied by some such resolution as was read by the lion. Mover (Mr. Barham), to sliew, beyond the vomit:sky of nsisrepresentetne,, that they acted in thi s way, from no feeling of alb out, hut its the ems. {Ni t s-lance of • dnty incumbent on them. In pr.. rye. tint their personal rights, hut the rights cf the people intrnsteit to their ears. The presertation of their privileges slid i'igetity was indeed a trust tint a property. There was nutmeg in the petition that might not he again stated inoffensively, and in a stile consistent with the dignity of the Homo- to re ceive. As the petition new stood, he felt it to be a duty lie owed to those who sent him there, and to the people of F.tigland. %horn he represented, to reject it. Mr. &Imo's could not agree with an Hon. Gent. opposite (Mr. W. Smith) that the House was held in contempt by the country. or that it war degraded in the manner he represented it. Were it so, he would be ashamed to sit iti it ; *led he was surprised that suy Member, holding such opinious, should continue to fern' part of ao vile a fabric. But it was the expression of such sentiments, by Members of Parliament, that caused them to be believed ; for people would think there was some truth in assertions thus made even in the Howse it self by those °I to, own body. For himself, he pro tested agimist the do c t r i ne as untrue , an d woul d answer lor that part of the country he hail the :AO. flour to represent, and for other parts where he he i friends, that no such opinions respecting tl.e Iluuee of Comments were entertaiued. IVitli respect to the paper under di scuss i on , i t was any thine but ain ti lion. The first paragraph was an 11191111. mai the. s , - cord an untruth. It was an untruth to siat e , tl, 4 i. military force miscalled in to execute the Sprit kei . 4 warrant, as every one who heard him knew it w.i. called in, nut for that purpose, but to disperse the mob. He appealed to both sides of the Hiture— To what authority were they to look—Were they to look to the Irving ; the Parliament ; the Coneti. ninon; or, to the Hon. Baronet in the Tower, who would vilify and degrade them all ?—Were they not bouud to crush such a party as this ?—The Hun. Gentleman theu entered into the progress of the riots, and contended. that in this too the peti tion was false, end that the blood that was shed in the streets, rested upon those, who, by their resist trace to the execution of the warrant, excited to tu mult and disorder. Fie justified the conduct of Ministers throughout. Had they delayed any longer to call in the military, they ought to have been impeached, and there would, with good reason, have been a general feeling of indignation; against the highly-commended, the exemplary con. duct of the military, who bore so patiently the pelting of brick-bats, and firing of pistols. mid other Injuries, almost beyond human nature to en dure. No man would open the doors of the House more widely to the petitions of the subjeet thou he would, but this was insolent, libellous. rod untrue, and ought to be ri jected. Mr. Monaca slid, if hr drew the same conclusions from the petition, as the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last did, he would come to the same de elision. But he would not impute a design to offi nd the House to the petitioners, and arguing, on the principles of his Rt. Hon. Friend, (Mr. Percetill; for the Wiestminster Petition, he would give that f ons Middlesex also the fairest interpretation. Con- i dering the act against which it petitioned, he could not think it was framed to insult. 11 it denied die power of the Blouse to commit, then it would be an insult, and he would vote for its r.jection ; but surely it had a right to deny the power to commit fur libel; a question on which so litany rnilln . lit authorities had differed, aud which was now colon% foe a 'legal &caries+. If the -Petitiorrers conscieto homily thought the Howie had in this acted ill.- golly, he did not see that in their petitinu they • could express themselves in teems esaentially different from what they had done. As for tl.e observation, that, if they received this peti tion, their table would soon be entered »Ufa others of a similar nature; he would rather see their table so covered, than know that the semi meets were rankling unexpreeied in the in-ople's hearts. He would wish to know, if thelse peritioes ta cover the table were expected from the comity tif Middlesex alone, or, that other counties would follow the example ? This last was very impure bable. The security of the country coesieted in these public discussions, and secrecy and darkness were not consistent with the Bilis') Comfit iitimi. It was better to know what the general opiiiiiin was, that, if possible, it might be guarded against; than to have it like a subterraueoas lire, undettuste. ing the Constitution, till, at last, one great explosion buried the whole in runic The word " protest" had been objected to, but he could not see any variance between that and •, petition," at least so much as to cause its rej-ction. Were this Petition received, and the county of Mildlesex were to petition again, then he would think it time to make a stand ; for a second petition would he an attempt to vilify the House. At present, he would vote for its bring received, as lie could rather rot narrow a right, valued by the people, than catch at hasty expressions, howeser strung. Colonel Wow) considered the petition as the most disrespectful ever presented to the House ; but a hether they rejected it or not. lie did nut think their table would be covered with any thing similar. The p e ti t i on was not w h at i t was staled to be. It was stated to be, "The Notion of the Freeholders of Middlioex, in full county amino bled." Of the persons aesembled at hackney, tint one-third were freeholders, and the petition woo, signed by no more than eight mimes. To this meeting he, a freeholder of the comae. would tot go, because he knew that nothing he could say would be attended to, and that it was in vain to at tempt to he beard, in combating the opinion of the party there sioembleil. There were many tree holders of the county deterred from going, fur the same re-aeons, and because they knew there »a re hundreds of persona there not freeholders, Jet,.. mined, by cry mad clamour s to drown every vice not raised in favour of their own way of thinktur. lie protested against the petition being reertrtd as the petition of the freeholders of Middlesex, end he was confident, that if the county was po:led n th e r t o n u t g it h y o t u, to t t I out o s i tgntt. f Lo t of t s tt. le Ie would thinksrhh n t le ii r a r e ni.„ ..;: e lt! disgraced by its bring laid on die table.—(lleer. hear.)—He might be Belied whey the, did o.ii the 9an 10 attend aud rej, et the prepostriuna t Ilia answer was, bemuse they knew, that, so neer the metropolis. it was easy to collect a crowd of pee. In the drown course every me ofttlis t i li t i .b ig m delete, maws, s wisr ub. sutit"ale'ln:sr:°liwuadrh.a w been introduced, not te-ceseor'ly eisetweti il with it. What had the conduct of the Mi o isters t. - wards Sir F. Btedett to do with the language rat Ili, Middlesex petition ? Whether !Ministers were right or a rong, the :segue ? , of • p etit M e to t h e I l ou•e , f Cisinriun.s Might to be r e-p ect f u l aced iouffetistie. In