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country, which was returned to Sicily as unfit to be ratified, he could not lir 1p cousideriog the present as'rather an improper season to call un the House to concur in this vote. It migiit be stud these grants were'raade in confidence, but he could never be in duced to consider this as a sufficient ground for his ' vote, under the present circumstances of the two ' countries. The Ilotise would but ill discharge its duty to the country, if they consented to vote mo ney under so touch doubt and uncertainty. With the old treaty it was not his intention to find fault, but this additional grant in the new, lie must op pose. He was anxious to know, before he voted money for it, whether it contained any thing of a commercial nature, favourable to this country ? lie had heard front authority on which he relied, that 'hough our manufactures were in great request in ;icily, yet that in commerce with that Island, we 'ere the least favoured nation on the fuce of the felt. Where a duty wet laid on our goods so heavy almost to *Omuta to a prohibition. This, lie had m informed, was not owing to any indisposition the part of the Sicilian Government towards our chants. On Clue contrary, several overtures on the \act of a more friendly encouragement to our e, had been made to the British Government, h they had neglected. Ile could not help also anxious to k -sow, litho' treaty contained any 'winos of a moreanilarged political nattire ? By 'n,-4 the country, we had given the Sicilian natient au opportunity of saylog (he acknow , without foniulation) that we had brought imp all the hostility of France. We might, re, be disposed to du all in our power, t out wit!' national policy, to aid that Govern- But here we had in Sicily 10,000 men, any military purpose, offensive or defen ley were locked up by the Sicilian Go , and when their services might have hero al its Coitulouia. that Cioveruinent insisted naiuiugin Sicilyou the termsof theirtreaty. ' treed to think they were not rrtansed to the French, but to ovelawe the people try. generally. and not without reason, 'o the government ; under which they, tottery, suffered so much oppression. of Sicily were represented to him as form at so. rate. It was mortifying that our alliance identified u. with a so misguided and radically bad, that for the Britian character, all the faith lity and hoopoe, all the gratitude for ud genernsitv, and all the reliance on uld not ituruce the people to give us o France ; whose ineuletet rapacity, try, whose Military estaittons, (Non union, and, M fine, all the bitterest government they • hurl most *e lated as we were sith the Sir-than might inaist on internal reform. t expense, not only in an urmy but for transports on the co-rot, id ordinance fur the defence of cities. Would it then be too in return from her Govern hich would render our assist conciling the people to their of the Excnktatma said, linkman had entered into a ie present occasion. he would to notice such parts its up the grant before the House. 'rout the lion. Gentleman, ugh opposing this vote, to sions with Sicily ; and in ' that not only the present, of this country, and men iis connexion es of value is well as with regard to a Malta and the Medi ie might assume, that pinion as to the import iendence of Sicily from is had been so felt at all nt thought it worth a asideration it must also Gentleman himself sere bound to Sicily Se circumstances at he war with France. -man hind gone a lit- Nona§ derived from easily be traced to a * general dislike ski Governments— ight have been in tat there might be , teed to deny; bat re was no proof. that effect ; for men. mad. wild, that there was th fighting for ; Its in our Con n submit to it, its evils But tent ought to ther Govern mr own en. e right, it. un others. ibing terms I if we in.. fe and sug nore so, as affording to grant ,al treaty, id down were to e money 311451011 ; original he un furling ad oc cilian r Fo it it in be the cd 7 rate of eseitalige on 300,0001. II) his opinion the 'nue %%as not so pressing sots call for this vote be fore the [louse were in pos,ession of the treaty.— lie defended the arguments of his lion. Friend (Mr. Lambe). The line he recommended was not to pre,. as Legislators on other countries. but to say 4. unless you take such measures as will render our co-operation efficacious, all we can de, even Had we (Inutile our force, cannot support you against the immense power of France." Were we in those matters to look only to the governing powerscif the country we ar►isted, and not to the people? Ought we not rather to see that our tab nei was not misapplied ? Why erere . Ministens es delicate with regard to Sicily, since it appeared, from papers on the table, that Marquis Wellesley did nut hesitate iu du:tenons to Spain? In this, Mi nisters departed from their own principles, and were inconsistent. In Spain they were right iu their inter ference ; and he could conceive no stornger cafe in Europe than the strong oppression on the Sicilians, which Mid existed for twenty years, under the' Go vernment of Naples. It was on ibis ground the French formerly got possession of the island, and nieintained it, till driven Iromet, in consequence of their exam ions and oppression. But the people had i now forgotten that tyranny, when put in compe -1 rison with their existing evils. Our advice to re medy these evils would only be as it war in Spain, an interference in the common cause ;- and every Power ought to take it in good. port ft:out an ally. The, question being for en augmeutation, he could not conceive why the House should not wait till the treaty on which it was founded arrived. If he could solve the riddle at all, it was only in this way, that His Majesty's Ministers, plunged ip difficulties, wished to get the money bills pressed throagli the House, without notice, that they ;Wight hiSten the prorogation of Parliament. Were it only on thin ground, he would oppose the vote. The CHANGSLIAII of the EACHEQUBR, and Sir E WPM"? severally ezplained. Geoeral 'lrsat.terow would have expected the Right Hon. Vent. opposite, in answer to the re marks of the Hou. Gent. behind him, (Mr. Lambe,) to taste 01)e of three things : Either that the sum proposed was necessary for the defence of Sicily— ' or that it would conduce to our commercial interests, or that it would contribute to resider the island a More complete deput for future military operations. He hail, how. yer, stated visor of these thus s, hut had en 4eavol:-ed to itii Ili/4 sensation in the House, about die oii.sions of parties, and sayings used by persons in or out of the House. Neither bad .the Right HOll. Gent. answered the question relative to our merchiirrs being wo,st! treated iii Sicily than those of any other country. We had upwards of 15,000 men in Sicily, and with ' all this expense al ready, and no answer to the points on which infor -111411011 was requested, lie could not think the vote proposed a wise one, particularly as the subsidy must go out of the country So motley, to the great detriment of our own military operations, which it appeared had been retarded from want of specie to carry them ou. On these graunds he would pro pose to revert to the original treaty, mid, la% an amendment, insert the word ‘, Th fee" for Four." before the words hundred thousand pousirts,' the present treaty. Upon this atneodinent the gallery was cl , tred. aud * division took place-- Fur it.. Aiiiiitist it ss Majority....., 34 The original vute of 400,0001. was accordingly read a sercitui time. CRIMINAL 1.4W5 IMPROVE \II7NT. On being re-admitted, wr found that S.r Sp4UEL Roltlf.l.Y had moved the Ord. r of the 13 ty to. the further consideration of the Report of the Privately Stealing Bill ; bome amendments to which were read. On the motion that the Bill and its amendments should be engrossed, bring put— Mr. HfillaV.RT said, that it was ;NWs with the greatest reluctance he oppoird any thing proceed mg from the Hun. and Learned Gentleman oppo site ; but the present motion went to all alteration iii the criminal code of the country, which he, for one, could not approve, and which, however unplea sant the task, he felt it his duty to resist. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman appeared to lion to have over-stated,hy a great number, the dispropor boo between those committed for capital offences, sad those upon whom the law was actually put in execution. He allowed, at the same time, that there was a great disproportion, though not to the same degree. But this, he thought, even allow.. ipg the statement to be correct, win.: hardly a fair way of considering the question. Besides the list of those convicted capitally, the list of those who had been punished in any way shoot(' be taken into account : and if they were to consider the numbers who escaped f the iutlolence and the avarice of prosecutors, from false witness, from flaws in the indictments, and also from the peculiar nature of the trial by Jury, which, with all his respect for, and attachment to it, he must my, had this fault, that it was subject to much uncertainty ; if they were to consider and make allowance for all those causes, the disproportion between those committed and those convicted, might be accounted for on other grounds than that of defect in the law itself. It was a principle universally acknowledged now, and ably laid down by Dr.. Paley and Mr. Basil Montague, that crimes should be punish ed, not for revenge, but for example ; nut because they had been crninieted, hut because the repetition ought to be prevented. With this object in view, they ought to be cautious in 'Mil gating the criminal code, as they must thereby re more one strong prevention from following such ex atnpb.s. The law to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman alluded, was the sth of Elizabeth, 1552; and he (Mr. Herbert) was sure that he would he borne out by the preamble of those acts, in saying, that they were laws made, not it) the spirit of re venge, but with the just and rational oluert of pre venting crimes, and the influence of their example. This brought hint to consider what punishment should be substituted. Would the Hon. cod Learn ed Gentleman wish to follow the example of Russia ? Or would he agree with the Marquis Beccaria ? Would he resort to solitary contineineut, as a milder substitute ? Whether milder, whether more meter fol, or not, he would not now inquire ; but lie was convinced, that there were many persons in this country, who would contend to the last against such a system. Upon the whole, it appeared to hi,n, that, in die prestut state of society, our properties were preserved et the expense of as few lives as possible. Ile Wda sure that many offences were prevented by the terror of death ; and it was a language which he had often heard among the lower classes, that such a thing ought to be avoided, be cause it was" hanging matter." He did not wish, from the observation he had wade of its effects, and the view he had of its principles, to alter the laws of England, or make any material changes in the criminal code; he would, therefore, second soy person, who, agreeing with I • in sentiment, would Move uny amendment, tending to check the .pro gress of the present Bill. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that if he could agree with the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that the severity of punishment would operate snore strongly than the certainty, to prevent crimes, he would agree with him also in opposing the present motion ; but as he was of opinion that the certainty was far more efficacious than a severity, subject to relaxation and remission, he must take a different part. The Criminal Laws of England required inuch amelioration ; they were bloody, not to prac tice but in system ; a system which outraged hu manity so far as to he irreconcilable with the general feelings of mankind. and incapable a practical application. He coold inetance this effect of their severity from that part of the I. tniterl Kingdom to which they both belonged, and which might pro bably prove to the Hon. Gentleman, that severity of punishment did not always produce the effect of preventing crime or furthering justice. Some time ago it was a capital felony i-, Ireland to cut down trees, night or day ; he was acquainted with one gentletn.in who had planted a vast deal, and dedi cated much care and expense to agricultural im provements; so strongly was he impressed with the necessity of making examples of those guilty of that offence. that he was known to declare fre quently, that, severe as Ire thought the law, he would put into effect. After some time. a person was detected in the set, upon his estate, and coin• twitted to prison, upon his charge, to stand his trial the next assizes. He (Sir John Newport) re- membered well the state in Which that worthy mind-was, up to the day of trial, all which lime he persisted in his intention; but when the day ar rived, his resolution was overcome, and he confeasrd to him, that, great mile considered the injury to society, in abandoning the criminal to impunity, yet he•could not answer to himself for being a party in procuring his condemnation, though the mercy of the Crown might afterwards remit the punish ment. Such was the way in which a man, far above the weaknesses which might interfere in most cases, decided upon the principle of severity of punishment. Stich was the way in which all men would decide, in cases where there was no proportiou between the crime and the suffering attached. But it would he right toconsider what the party abort to commit the crime would think ; would they not recollect those instances—would they not calculate upon the feel ings . of human nature? But it was unnecessary to contend soy farther; all writers of all nations had uni formly agreed that the certainty not the severity of punishment, was that winch contributed most to the prevention of crime. The Hon. Gentletnun had stated, in the course of his speech, whit ap peared to him to make against his own argument, which was the inclination of the jury to mercy, even in eases where their conviction' led them ro suppese the prisoner guilty. 111 such cases lutes did they get out of the difficulty ? often by perjury ; a perjury unjustifiable iii itself, but resorted to in the hope of justification from the motive. This was. a circumstance which the Legislature should consider well ; the relaxation of those moral obligations should never be encouraged or en fo►ced by the Legislature, as, in a•manner, they were in cases of extraordinary severity. Bet the lion. Gentleman had' •asked n hat punishments should they substitute, if they were to do away ca• pital punishments in the instancra provided by this bill? Surely this was a point which his Hop. and Learned Friend had not left in obscurity ; if the lion. Gentleman had attended to whet he said on first proposing the alteration, or if he had read the Bill itself, he would have found that a punishineut was provided, and that was transportation or im prisonment. at the discretion of the Judge, to be regulated by the circumstances of the case. As to solitary imprisonment, it ntigbt, perhaps, in some instances, be beneficial to society ; it might have a tendency to deter by its example, and to improve, by its nature, the person upon whom it was inflicted. He did think, alter a long nod care ful investi g ation of the criminal code of this country, that it was too severe ; that, if carried into effect, it would shock the minds of all men ; even of those who contended for its reintiin ing in its present state ; lie, therefore. agreed with his lion. and Learned Friend, that they should take away the capital punishments from many of the crime.; and lie hoped that he would persevere in his career of humanity, without any farther obstruction, until he had succeeded in ameliorating the laws, adapting them more closely to the scale of' justice, and giving them activity, effect, and certainty, by g ivin g them moderation. Mr. D. Gun's- said, that he agreed with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman iu many of hie pro positions, but he could not help thinking, that hie career of humanity was undertakes. in too extensive a sense. Ile wished that he had limited and con fined it more, sud if he had done so, he 'should have been happy to contribute to forwarding his object, leveled of obstructing it, as he now felt it his duty to do. It was often his lot to contend for a middle course, though he was aware that it was nut the way to make any splendid figure in the House, or out of it ; he preferred utility to splendour. That the laws of England were too severe in some eases was a proposition to which he must anent ; but, though in some, they were not so in all, nor perhaps in as many as the Hon. and Learned Gent. was dis posed to contend. In the words of the lion. and Learned Gent. i. nature had set her limits to punish inents;"but it could not be said that the hewed Eng land in every instance transgressed those limits. lie agreed that that which was called the erhitole! part of punishment, should, in merry instances. be more hutted, and that though perfection was sot a point which they could ever hope to reach, they should endeavour to approximate as much as possible to wards it in that, as irs every other minim Hr al lowed the truth of the obaerrwtinu, which the lion. Baronet had uitle.that the certainty of the punish. tuent would have a tendency to prevent then the certriuty should be condmici proper degree of severity. To Imes atroc►ous otfences, which he did nut 'ink he would give one instance of a crime thought should still continue to be pun tally; that was in the case of sheep -steno vast numbers that were fed upon I, mons could not otherwise be protected, formed a very great part of the upe the people ; for this reason he was of opt sheep-steeling should still be punished • As far as it was possible to ascertain the punishment, it would be of use to do so. not have interposed to stop the Hon. w Gentleman in his career, if he had not mode too general an application of the principles upon which he set out. A certain degree of arbitrary or distil.- tiouary punishment must exist at all times; mud as it must exist, he thought it could not be rested b e well any where us i n the Judge. He did not isi.g for an unlimited discretion, neither did he at.li for too narrow a one. In the narrow rod circuinveneed state in which the human faculties were hound up, it was necessary that it should be so. For his put he was favourable to what, perhaps, many *wi l d condemn him for, that was this opinion, that th e whole system of reformation would be Aritcarried on by detail. He respected the laws of E nv i„, d much, bat he would never lit his respectearry Mr s SO far as to oppose useful alteratious and &dewy reform*. t i , l e e pt 's a y e gte i to ni r irr r e morn b his l ' i V o t t e l. ci t !i r a i r ei n d c , o u n s si p d a e r n t 0 1 ing the criminal julispredeuce of the ...my,. T h ,.. observations of Dr. Paley had been coMmemed up on, mud objections raised against them, for the pur pose• of introduciug this nevi aytem. Bat, melees the system intended to be introduced were such, that the law could be carried iuto execution invan.. ably and inflexibly, the Hon. Gentleman het a plied Iris arguments in vim. Those Cradle:um!: who supported such daztrine, had already assumed, that a system might be establishesl without dis cretilen. .Therefore, it was a necessary come garner, if a law were to be executed with out discretion, that it most he iavinialrle seed inflexible. One of the testate:es alluded to in support of this utibject, was the case el a pee ve) killed in a duel. That was a case oot cruel, because attended with those circumstances clutch sepurieted it from the ordinary coarse aide cisions upon offences of that description. lithe law had been inflexible, either that esee could not have been so decided, for the geeerality of those of fences were not eo punished, or it must have been treated with the same lenity as the others, attended with eircumstancea completely different. Now. if discretion were set aside, supposing the pu nishment inflicted in that case to be right, then, according to the system of his Hon. Friend, all• others, however different in circumetanees, meet be generalized with it. This would certatulto • be generalizing the cases; but eireinustaticts, being iniattended to, justice, in his opinioteiwoug be rendered partial. With respect to ditcieholi. it arose out of the nature of things; it (night be an inconvenience, but it was one mankind emit. submit to ; for unless laws were made so sppli-t cable to every case, that they might be tended in. variable stud inflexible, it could always exist float necessity. Mv,, might its well talk of dinging what was fluid, while remaining fluid, into sera. • or turn what was moist into what was dry, as bind down discretion by rules. Another instance had beet' urged in support of this new system of crimi nal jurisprudence. It had been alleged, that is the case of a man being tried for stealing torte shillings in the dwelling-house, as the law now stood, courtt Leon and execution because the town was •iespected of having ••ore:noted mut. der.' Accordingly, it Wei argued, that the punish. merit of death was inflicted, not because a the crime for which he was tried, but Because et se-pi- ClOsi of murder, a crime for which he was not tried. In other Cases the j • hinted was remitted though the law had made it capital, and therefore th . un certainty was complained of, mud the punishment was condemned, when it is as enforced on act:omit of circumstances. In addif to the case where the punishment was inflicted through a stispiciem of mar. der having hert4perpet reed, they hod cited another, where the saineeffect resulted, because the offender had suborned witnesses. Certainly there was some thing iii the argument ; it was a saying, ether last feather bleeks the horse'. hack;" 90 far it might bre that the last thing which was put on would increase the weight, but no one could say that the horse's back was broken by a feather. Circum stances were not the crime, hat they would veer form a consideration of the crime. 'wired, it might be exemplified by one of the most ride colossi; instances, where a maw runs away with a halter ; this might be a circumstance not &see ing of (heath, but it happened there was • horse at the other raid. What mischief could possibly erne out of the present system of law ? for the coition might be adopted in particuler instaecoe and the advantage of the terror in all cares. Sol' - posing a man were condemned, the a lliantaiN might extend in two ways. when he was trial for the crime and condenneed for the c ircussodancee. But that Was a Cabe not likely to hewn. If all question were proposed in that /louse. mud I were inked whether he was for war or for r tliCV why that WWI a question he coeld not avert because it depended on circumstance-. war or peace, uitiversally. he might i for Li then; but ink hint as to' any particular ((Jr peace, he would he enabled to give a 'II"' answer ; hut the difference merely re hutted fr. his being put in possessionof the cite umelaiii: He really wondered at the arguments eln. li I' been alleged by his llnnourahle fin ;.'e 0 1 . he was cmcideristily snrprised hew he r. iindersialid the uhservatines of Mr. hail imputed to Obit eminent writer, et •'• never bad meant by any expreicion in his writings, m . ottle. thst it was l.'s e l the law should ; Hut be known. Th. re 0.:! noaterial dietioetion to be taken b e tween ells e ' knowing the law, and not kenning th at the 1 would be ermined nitre e x e cution ; fear . keener the ks,. inal yet reiPain ri In' •• it WOlll4l Of woeILIS Lora be Carried Arid ill this case the execution ), itio:fht but the terror gerMral ; and it was the s e lect pretested the renaniission of the •. I :•• till 1.111 rev. riga. crime: hat e ,„ l , a r eiV4 OVer 111010 Int" • t rite whuiti &tar lashed KIVA *ling. Thll1 I xe saute larg e e ".. t he I • Mad they why ibtesual wr u Wah 1111 441 I with Berth. oleo ere I certainty r 4 th 0. Ile shouL t i ived (ion, Les • otter