The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1810-04-27 00:00:00

Timm of Commons, which he offered for their sp. probati on . (Thi s liecch was beard with repeated shouts and cheering.) The Rosolittions were then read, as follow: Resolved, I. That tier Petition now read he adopted, and that it be meliorated to the I louse of COOIIIIIOIIO by our Representatives, George 111)im and Win. Mellish, &qrs. who are hereby in structed to support the some. o 'I hat we highly approve of the proceedings of the Electors of Westminster, at thew tate Meeting, and must heartily con cur in the aelitimems contained is their Letter to Sir F. Bur dett, sad hi his answer. • 3. That the Thanks adds Meetingare due, and arc heathy gives, to Sir France hunt/sit. Bart. for his truly patriotic conduct in Perlianieut-astur his euaitswered and unanswerable orpiment to the rase of J. G Jouer, vindicating the rights oftke"dhjecti asd del:Wine the power the House of Com mons to imprison, without trial, and during plea•ure, the people of England...for hi. I a the Speaker, protesting &gonna the power of the It ouse of'Coninsoss, to imprison, in brie midair, use of their 'Members-for laying before his Coustitoeuts afalthful necouut 01 his coedect in Parliament "-end for his ousiatitutional resistance to the Speaker'. War mint, whereby be has given a practie4l illaatratian of its in alchemy ; &sidle's Menai that it could sot be pot is force, woleout military aid, • violation of our elicit* laws, and a toroth sif the privileges of Eugluibusen. Thiat these Resolutions At fairly transcribed, sod pre- Crto Sir Francis Bartlett Is% the Sheriffs, accompanied ew Byag and William Mellish, &qrs. our Represen emirses. The Resolutions were then steisondA by Mr. . a/tame ; and, un the first being-put tp the vote, Mr. LlEarrialt said, he rose; not to counteract arty 114 the °JAIN/L. _/4Y r ased tbs aentleman who ild ho had just prhiand haft; on the smarmy, twfurther true eentisuirets: and more pLelSularly iu One poise, namely, that of the cry raiser, agaiiist f ir Francis Bwdett.-.-This cry Wl6ll a libel upon the whole people of Britain.. But * was not the only, nor was it the greatest libel—a still more atrocious one told hero committed, in calling, not the military, but a whole army, to the Metropolis ; to do what ? isilot to euforce the laws, but to keep down the subjects; whom they accused of a design to overturn the Laws and Constitution. To hour witnessed this host, soy oue would have thought the enemy was upon the coast. But it was &gaits* no enemy the army was called iu ; it was to countenauce a measure, which the very authors of it knew to be illegal and unconsiiteti etas!. They knew it to be so, and they knew that *people were too loyal to suffer any inroad to he aside upon the Constitution, without resistance.. To sbew this iu a stronger light, he would suppose livery extreme case. Suppot, a reitriesas was made out by any Court, to commit a deliuspicist Mtuiater, be* many armed men would it re:moire to carry that iutu execution? tel faligh.) He had seen the whole of this long reign. Yes! he was old enough to bave seer the le•ginuing of it, (a per,ma from toe crowd rxciainted, " and I hope will live to see the end of it,") he ha l traced thesis men with a seruti sizing eye, and he would endeavour to describe who they were, who were now opposed to Sir Frith . cis Bartlett. lie email trace them from the Stir. Chaniher Court ; they were the men who, in 1715. and 174.5, hod agitated tin-country ; they were the lame men who excited the American war; the Same who entered into the French w.,r. The s e were the men who had I 'wiled the people, and stigtuatizi d their loyalty. They were the same nom oqi had raised the national debt to such a !etch, find it world be eufficieat to rebuild every city, every town, every village, every hamlet, every honor, every lint, in the empire. Were they not also the same limn who had screened every public delin quent, when charges were made against them, and they were brmight before their country for justice ? Were they lint the same men who were the advo cates for the Conventiou of Cineru, amid for every measure of which the people now complained ? The same men who were the emistaol. systematic opposers of every species of 'einem, or any measure tetitleng to renovate the Constitution. The King, at the beginning of his reign, had canted with him to the throne the haute, the lwarts, and the ofeetio lis of every mail in the empire, and if be had hail good honest Mini-ters about him, he would to this day have insured all their lian hi, hearts, sad affectious. He hail only sail this much, to rescue their injured honour from the mivereants who durst thus libel a whole peuple.—( funs speech also received much applarise, except when, bruin onsiinderviandiug its meaning, a hiss met against Alr. Bentle).) Major C earwatsar inferined the Meeting, that after the Petition and Resolutions were agreed to, it was his intention to move an Address to their foetid Sir F. uurd,tt, non a prisoner is the Tower. Mr. MeLLISII stepped forward to address the Meeting ; but the heutincs were so loud, chat he could lint obtain a hearing. Mr. 11. TOWNWID bc,jgrtl them to hear what the Hon. Gentleman had to say, and also give Mr. Chian! en ("nodosity of hearing him. Mr. AItt.I.IIIIN again siltireseed them. lie would detain them but a short time, and hoped they would be so obliging us to hear him. As their re priewristosiseehe felt it to be his bounder' duty to primed. any petition agreed in at a comity meeting, legally called and couvened, as the pr.-old was. But with respect to the letter part or their boo. instructing lion in support the P. -loom, lie thought it *Mild disgrace them, roil other free holders, slot no* present, should he ere com mit lino.elf, and lose that iiiilepeutleut situation.— [II the clanionis became so great, that Mr. 111ellidE could be heard no longer, and he retired from the discordant squalls, hisses, awl reedings of the Meeting.] Mr. Brno came forward, and met with a very different reception. He felt it incumbent on him to state his opirtious clearly and decidedly un the crest menritres which hail lately bee n carried in the HoareCommens.-1-le would present their Fi thian; sow hoped, that, on all occasions, as on the present, hiaopinions would ensible hint to support the principles. nit which their Petitions might be founded. The these of C.Oflllffinlll6.lll his 00111011, alight to have great powers, butt they ought only to exercised foe the people's good, and on inenet -4.0 occasion*. Whet the necessity ceased, the ge , elleter ought also to crow. From this view or soh r ..r, it was, that he voted in (atom or Mr. Joiers.—Mr. Jones hail eritienod the poi, of t h e Lino-u.; rad ant. lie conceived every Brim, , Ord a right In do. The past conduct of that A..- •••sibir imagist to be erineieol. In the ease nt Sir • Franca Bord-tt, tie was almost movni‘ for Om& sul• jeuruntent ; and thought it would have been better to meet the question with * direct vote, that the paper was no libel. Sir Francis Burdett had au undoubted right to address himself to his conetitu ruts, to whom he was accouutable for his Parlia mentary conduct : and he was sure, that lion. Ba ronet, its doing bO, had never meant to be guilty of a libel the House of Commons. From his ear. heat days, he bad been a friend to Parliatuentary Re form, mid an adequate representation of the people of Eugland.—As wealth and intelligence circulated and extended, the legislature ought to be en larged. This was a desirable object ; and time people would attain it, if they united cordially and firmly together, and carried their voice up to Parliament, upon its re-assembling. He was sorry that Mr. Too useud had so iiidiscrincinately attacked and vilified all piddle ur n. Tile House of Coin 111011b, even us it s-tie ha was Con vinced, boasted as many men ab ever sat in it at one time, who were aobioilb to act with and for the people. He then ea, led upon all patriotic, all hoe neat men, all friends to reform, and enemies to cor ruptbei, to unite in d. daring their setitimems, and they would find support its that House. They would be successful ; but unanimity was net:every, for the enemy they had to oppose was oilways united. Mr. Cuero en said, he e jelled to offer a few words upon tile ',resent occasion. Of all the argu ments he had ever heard in defence id the House of Commons, the most curious was that with which Mr. Byug had concluded his speech. lie had stated, that if the people expressed themselves strongly in favour if Parliametitary Reform, if they declared their opiuions boldly and openly, they would find in that House men who would eliforce their claims, and aceomplieh, or at least ettempt to accomplish, their legitimate objects. What, however, he (Mr. Clifford) would ask, wits the fact, with respect to those who had dared to avow their opinions ? The one was sent to Newgitte, and the other, who had attempted to defend him, was sent to time Tower.— Load applawies.)—With respect to the Clleoll - .gernent which their worthy Representative wa. desirous that the people its general should give to those in Parliament, he believed it was seldom wanting ; but even if it was, they delegated Mem bers to that I louse, who were supposed to know the Constitution ; from which knowledge they were bound to act fur the benefit of the country, even though they should have no other support than the consciousness of doing right. But their Repre sentatives, who were sent in as .ervants, were now endeavouring to alter the relstion in which they mutually stood towards each other, and to • com mit their masters.—(Appieseses wad laughter./ And it became theta, who were really and eon etinitionally the masters, to take cure, lest, in the language of Sir Francis Burdett, they should subject theinselves to the curse of Canaan, and bee come the servants of their servants.-I,lnpianses.) As to their other Representative, lie was willing to do him justice, and to allow that he was what per haps very few public tnen could boast, perfectly censisteet. (Applakses.) The sentiments express e. I by him on the present occasion, were those upon which he hid ale/toys acted. It must he in their re collection, that Junin; the election which placed him in Parliament, his dependence was not nu the principles which he had to avow, but upon the numbers which he thought were secured to him ; when called upon for a speech, his constant reply was, " Look at the poll." (Lough./ lie also had given them a strong argument upon the subject. Mr. Clitiorthhen proceeded to observe, that he ob jected nut only to the exercise of the power in the present instance, which was claimed upon the part of the Howie of Contained, Indio the emstenee of such a power. /Load applause%) He had co hesitation to say, that at no period of our history, except at the time of the rebellion, was power exercised by that House ; and as long as the spirit of the Constitution was preserved, as long as a spark of freedom ex isted in the breasts of Englishmen, so long would power be denied it. (App/airser.) What were the objects for which Parliament was instituted The redress of grievances, the protection of privileges, the providing fur the exigencies of the state, and the exercie- of the futictionsof & Court of Enquiry ; hut this Court was not to punish by its own authority, even in case of ascertained guilt, but toaddress, order that steps should be token to punish, accord- Mg to Law and the Constitution. (Applisaises. ) A Member of the House of Commons, (Mr. Whit bread), had lately put a case, the force of which he (Mr. Clifford) could not perceive. He hail asked, if a mob had collected together in Palace-l'ard, fur the purpose of obstructing the passage of some po pular Representat•ves, about to lintig forward popular iniestiuit us the House of Coalition., would not the House, its such a case, hare a right to Hatt punishment for su c h an unwarrantable proceecditigl lie pled no heeitatie ts iii *newel ing to such a tioesto tttt t that in that, and in every ease, he denied their right to punish ; they might remove the obstruction, but, that being &Ile, th e y should resort to the Courts of Lew for sateilaction and retirees ag.einet any of the iiffeliders. The (louse of Comminis was sot the Legislature, lint one branch of the Legal- Wore. They might recollect, that, ',cen t years ago, when His M.,jesty was going to the I louse of Lords, his carriage was stopped, and some illilColl - 111111 taken place UllOll the part of these 11-0:113- bled. The Constables, upon that ocean; 1111 l pro ceeded to remove the obstructem, which they ef fected. But they did tint presume to inflect pu nishment for the offence. One ef the perso ns cou vetoed, was )441 tt'elte; who was tried its the ergo- Ivr course of law, amid condemned to imprisonment. hey were told that the Speaker's warrant, besting inialtigy wit, the King's writ, should be executed its thr same manner; WWI it was not imprnlietile, that if that point was surrendered, the Honourable House would see an aualugy between the Speaker's wig. and the crown ;---/4 largh.)—that it would maestri, there was as minis dignity la the wig, as in th e ernes' ; and in the mace, as in the sceptic.- 1 4 1 , Plowles•)—There were saw who were of (mi nting, that the power against which lie was colored •himlll will remain to the House. though they a 11.,.. ed, th .t it might not to have beets exerted up on the late iseCaliloll. That power be should deny ; nor could he s e e an y greet use, thmigh he mig ht see stench mischief, in contending fin any pow. r, the the of which they could ton at poi—alit see; and which. was only to be kept its reserve for morie particular OCCa.ltill, which they could neither sari. i polo Doe conjecture. it was touduct such as t los, that had lost America.—(Applauset.)—lt was the retaining the right, after giving up the Stamp Act, which plunged the country Into that contest, the result of which was defeat and separation. He • begged to re d them of the conduct of their predecessors, alluded to in the petition; a conduct ' which, after twenty years contimiexce, accomplish ed, nuttily, the erasure of all those obitosious reso lutions adopted by the (louse, us contrary to the rights and privileges of the hotly of the electois iu general. He hoped that tit- y would imitate such conduct, and that the pre.eeit Parliament would not be disinclined to take a lesson from their pre decessor* also. At the same tune it was to he wished that they would not now be obliged to con tend for twenty years again, hut that the Howe, seeing the general sentiment, and convinced of the justice of the case, would grant to the petitions, the just complaints, sod entreaties of the people whet they had a right to expect, and what they would be grateful to receive. —/Loud appionars.)--,There was one observation more which he was desirous of making, it respected that part of the petition which ob-erved upon the blood that bud been spilt in the streets. It was a circumstance much to bee lament ed. He for one was thankful to Sir F. Burdett tOr the resistance he had made, as such resistance was necessary to shew that the warrant could not be car ried into effect, without the interference of military power ; tha t mi the Costitutimmul force of the com l . t r y was Not antEeient. He encouraged them to hope that the House of Commons, corrupt and de generate as it wad, would, upon consideration, mid a deliberate view of the case and its consequences. abandon such a claim its that fur which it was now contending. Mr. Walpole had once said, "'give the power of shedding blood and you give blood ;" and Lord Chatham had Mime paraphrased the, ob servatiote by saying, " give the power of corrup tion and you give corruption." They should, there fore, be careful what pia ileges or prtrogittives they would recognise, lest, by esticbliiiiiing them, they might be undermining their own security and nide peadence. How, lie would ask, could that power be necessary 11g111141 the Crown, the exercise of which. in fact, depended upon the Minister, awl thereby emote the Crowu itself? (Appluscsel.) The Reuse of Commons, it was to be hoped, if it had, nothing else, was at least poseeeeed of wisdom, in a sufficient degree, not to resist the public voice, when loudly,. generally, nod justly expr es s e d ; no t t o ac t i n con• tradietimi to that op , inion. upon a Inch all Govern ments stand, and tel e ' they should all cnitivste; but, if lie was diappointed iii his hope, and the judgment of the House turned out to be more de fective than he was willing to siipoose, let the peo ple still persevere—let theui still continue to dis cuss the subject, until 110 arginneut should be left tin apl ored, us air. ties. unanswered ; mud when they succeeded iii making every one asheased to defend it, it was impossible beet that the Home of Commons would lie ashamed to persist. Mr. Rewrote said, he did not see how the Elec tors of %Vestminster were in a worse situation than the Elector, of Middlesex. The former, it WWI true. were deprived of the services of one of their Representatives, but how were they, themselves, situated in that respect ?—(il huigii.)—They had not barely lost one, but they had chosen one who was sure to oppose them.—(Applames.)—fie ex pressed himself in terms of strong itellignution at thedeclaration of Mr. Mellish, who had set himself above their instructions, and pm his judgment iii competition with that of the whole county. He had declared his iudepeudence of them. He (Mr. Renton) was always inclined to respect a declare time of independence; but that rule, like all others, had its exceptions--e u lough)—and he must ac e keiowledge, that it was not with a sentiment of re siwct he regarded the present declaration of Ir.— The independencer which their worthy Representa tive had avowed, was en independence of his con stituents. He concluded with recommending 'Par liamentary Reform. as time sorest, sorest, and most permanent wry of accomplishing the redress of those grievance* under whir •11 the country suffered. Mr. IVAITIIMAN said, dust after the ability with which the subject had been already argue d, it would be wrong in hint to take up much of th ar time. lie entered so fully into all that had been said, that lie had nothing to urge iii opposition, mid little would be required in t•onlirmatian, after what had already passed. Their worthy Friend, Mr. Clifford, had stated. that the present contest was sin per to that in which tail hail been engaged abant forty years ago; the observation was jll,ll. fur the only diffrrence between the two cases, was, that the for mer was about the *merman( the Secretary of State, and the latter, about the warrant of the Speaker. (App/auses.) The country was much indebted to Mr. Wilke., whatever ought he the opinions of men upon different shades of his character, for the firm amid an only 'mintier in which lie had mode stem'. In that instance, if a stand was not made against the warrant of the Secretary of State, it was probable that they would not now be met tog. titer upon such an occasion; for he was mire they would all acre.., :diet the number of 11,,gitioue acts im posed 'tom the country, shice the commencement of the Freovh weir, that if the warrant of the Secretary of S1:111' 1,411 not been resisted. no Englishman *mild he ,se cure in his p roper ly and privilege, at the preenit day. (Applaases.) The House was now attempting to try the seine question, in a dif. &rent form, by aulanitnting the warning of the Speaker, for the warrant of Mr. Secrebery. It wait contended, that such a power is the Parliament was or, essiry for the people.; he could not see for what purpose; all writers upon the Constitution maintained, that each power of which it consieted, formed a kind of check upon the other ; but if this now contended for was admitted, it was his opinion. that the Constitution would have reached that state, in which Memtesquien pro nounced it lost ; namely, when the representative and executive powers should becotne the same. Hue agreed with their worthy Representative, Mr. flying, whose conduct be approved of as much as any one could, that they should lie cautious how they aliustri puh'ic men. provided those public MPH eilieweil MC14 , 01141 to do their dint:...—(elp plemares.)—lle regretted much that many worthy. opusghi. and honest characters, were blinded tier attachment ao parii,mlne p,artirn , to the trite inotuv,l4 by winch there parties were solluenced ; was to 1 4 11 4 •11 artttchroent h 4ll4 llllfttiblltl'll 11110 WIIV11" 1. , 111141 the language with which it o n . ocrompai.ied. One of their Represtiatiativas had told thew, the y ought to Speak their minder; another hul a . them there was no . use 10. it; one of then, 11 4 ,; ." i that if .they wished fur Pailmtnentary ought to say so ; while another gav e th w e r II , • deistaud thut he 'fib independelit of them ; they had scut him into Padtioneut. where he woo act fur himself. sod w h ere t h ey would do m hi i ' 1 "1 jostler to say, he ay he ha d iaeittilisei h . 4 : 4 . kaleurgiledh.) ductorsNow wwheicreht*opii f dy t iin i t i gioit speaktvh w hich oirt a cted ut or , present ; nrnu f ? vi T ew he to pr t e h s e c t o w t i t;o l e e t ir l il"1 tier point it had been pared; it respected a p ower w hi c h was used again.; t them by tine he citattoattwelNun.i‘hilie e A i,tratios that had , ver disgraced the country , prerionr t o O w , (Loud (Alpinists.) It thee two were influenced by proper too:lves, if.th ev widied to do justice to the country, wa. it tieue s ..,*, for them to resort to such is m. - mime to flout Hut what was their justice to the preseiit ease : They had been them tried for acts, which called kr the most exemplary 1.110f1i 4 squandering of the resources of the I'ollllli V, ;I li „, extruvegatit sac ridee of her troops : they tvtmetxrtireadordopiounery to such itangli noc: theya.iou as this, Yud pbr , had seen flouts s t hir e it occasion.ig voting, But eU_ftrwo:llltellhthol ment h th t e I aw4elie:iitidine7thlnelyeti had put into prison, were neither of them inainiiteol raw to speak a word for them se lves at the Bee of tee liouse.—(Applanses.) applied to them by, those who deserved to he bronght to the b'ock, even through they load the summit of their i,d temoident Representative behind 4 laugh. J—lle would udi, wh e t'," the conduct of ?.i r, York«. in enforcing the standieg order for the exclusion of strangers durin g so im portant au 111(11111'y. was 11.4 a rinlaflWl ofjustice, *.ld RD outrage upon puhlic feeling I— Load 4p. plauses.)-4( the public was not permitted to be present at their debates, how were they to judge of the con d uc t o f tin it Representatives ? even that of the independent Member helliod him must escape their knowledge. mod by that 111C3114 their erprehension.—( /atigio—lt rc ra Üb,tllll to 1 sly that such power was necessary, for there never was an Matinee its which the people did not support the Howse of Commons, when they were cootett ling in a just caps.—(Load applitetler, and cries of 4. Mere ne:er ; there sec.-r• trill.")--Erei i if their Independent Member could prove to them, that he had more poetise than the whole coutity, would still find a difficulty in convioeing them that he had more honesty. (A late )He hoped tho dry would moonlit , • to petintm from doy to duly for Par. li ono•litary Reform, without for any mike, dual+ to pledge themselves to OUllifllft it. When men a rte placed in a public rad distinguished si tll4loll, th e y were bound to writ themselves in the public eau-e. Those ndvantii;es which fortune and circuinststices conferred upon them dinuid not he abused or neglected. They should recollect that they were sprung from the people. that they were • part of the people, Ind it shoitild be their highest ambition, as it was certairly their bight* honour and hest policy, to act along with them.— ( Loud am/au-yea.) Mr. C 1.4 Y7to N J EN NI NGS egicl. that he swore?, and he was store the Electors in general epproviil also of the conduct of their Representative, Mr. By rig ; lie believed he might state, with rests rt to the other Member, that if they had no 0d tr instance than the few words which he address. I to them that Jar, it would be sufficient to make thcm sorry lin li 'tin; sent such a Representative into Parham, iv. cases of • doubtful natuie, and when inicontradicted by his Constituent., a • Member might fellow his own judgment; but in cases where a contrary economist was general,/ expres,eil by th o se f rom w h om h e was del egate , their judgment, and slot his, should determine.— ' He believed that the first step of the petition, the lest object to which it was directed, was a diseulu non of Parliament, of a body of men who were • disgtace in the ey, s of all Europe. who platted confidence in the hearts of the enemies of the coun try, mod despair in the bosoms of those by whom its welfare JIM +'-runty were deemed the greatest tiles sings. 'ln: obseried by Miiii.ters Imre* strong resembleeice to that of hurry the Villtk, when that Mimarch laid it down as u rule, that 114 b. 1.0(1%* bIIOIII.I, at:CCM/111g to his real bratltStlltil TVA* s o in r w re r a i n ti. r ., d i y ,r n fur i conceived l l n i e e .wla aifi that hut. ioas pit repooentalion ; and, under soch att the people lob mred, except i e i t i tw iLlui esA neirl i ee nt s' e x* i ti r ce e ; e : am pressooo, lie is as of opinion. that a vote of refloat bhottld be paced upon Mr. Mellish, fax his Ped , " memory iniscoonduct.—(erees 9r wove censure ! ceentre n 9 Ate/113h !)..—(The assembly appeared strongly alb . IMt Mellish, mud as much to Yrse t I favour of Mr. Ilyng.) Mr. CLIFFORD then said, that is the opinion of the Meeting was so clearly Lace , timed, he woid 3 wish to k on* to what manlier the t•entleittao ii luded to, would act ; and whether lie ovoid dare to oppose the general iiniiiiimity, an riegirctisg tit I. lie e t ' t h e f e r u r e e: , i f u o i g i t r o th ! hoped," i n s t r u ct ions t oet fi r st 'h' 1 11 ' c oo n Tu t It: wo uld 'i The first Resolution bring then pat, it w is tied with only one drvortitient ; who was loor:ly hooted by the moltitude. The 211, Si,: and eth Resolutions were carried in the mine mintier. On the putting of the 4th Revilutiol, &rec.!! that they be presented in the Tower, Icy (he ir.« BYligt cud Wilhent Mellish, E.quire.i. thole w.. 5 much et probation, the n of Mr. flyng being. applauded ; and at that of Mr. Mellish a genetal laughter. The Petition was then read, of which the following is a sketch That the Petitioners hare ohserred with concur; it the cases of John Gale JON!, and Sir F Burdett, B art. clod the filmic had assumed soil entercised a power aiskninrn to the Law, ant itawnrrnoted by the Constitoti.os ; atiritimf. 014 the Sneaker's ‘VAriaist hes been eXteilie , l by .mrc ; so Eagliabasati's house, his sanctuary, has hten lull ; and the blood of unoffearetog ettitenS berm slt,i in the streets—Against the e x ercise o f th is lower they an. !coolly protest ;—a protest whirls they allege to br ev.ssury, lornitse their cutouts its stspnort are i•tors,l on (Le Journal's but nuf a. the Letter of Sir rivet. Bordttt to the Brisker, dessytost the Howse such jurisdirtion. It thew trlowares, that, he tin. tqt.lt rrt of this is the es., of Mr %rakes, (lir riles s id this c lie nation, were repeatedly and NlN•he ts , : House of Conn iiiiii ip—nette orsecr•liisc t .•'••• ~• • ti-•° "ilk the Law tflowlphei —after • sue:o..l z.. t+vd üb:e Seat Spec as tl the II or tw. lior the titr