The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1805-05-11 00:00:00

l ri~ ti • • ~~' IMPERRL PIRLIALWANI. , NOUSE Or LORDS-•-relDAT's MAT 10. flgswir.o4 t.. me adtaswinit of atrium, sant.: busine,s was naroartvl In „ wwe time after, the doors were thrown opea. it Mr. Leycester, Chat:Dan of the Select inatee mo f the Hume 0 u 1 C mmmu attache! by areal Members, prevent d t tha bar a Mesage 9 from that Mate, request, e that Dud . ley, ' - 11 w i n m aw be permitted In attend the said Lore- L , ~d ann .. The Message, to other res beets, was the same as c ue , i ,' livered on a former 4.ty, respecting the attendance of v - ;1,1:m W e l viae, and which we stated at length ins foraser Ite 'rlie rt.LORD CHANCELLOR, baying 'pieviouslv par the seestion,cp-rod the Messengers to he called a is, and informed 'near, that their I.nuttltips wool/ semi an outset( to the Hvaie of Gbinmow, lit Messengers of their oleo. Mr. Alexander brought up from the Commons the Irish Loan Bill, the lath Rank, ono the Nett l'uat Rua.6 Bills, which wer e s everally teal a fif.t time. - A few private Bills w•r* brought rip by orher Crt Airmen, "4 rereadA tint time. Thule already upon the table vine r e spectively forwarded. ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND. About bail past &re . 0'44 their Lordships entered u pon the discussion oMishfrportant subjed. Lord GRENVILLE, immediately after moving the Order of the Day, moved that the Petition upon the 'fable from divers of His Majesty's Roman Catholic subjeifs of Ireland, be read. The Petition, which is already before the public, being accordingly read at length by the Clerk ; Lord GRENVILLE rose, and said—" I was anxious, my Lords, that you should hear the Peti tion read, previous to my offering any observations to you upon the subjed of it, on account of the many weights - arguments which it contains in favour of that which the Petitioners humbly pray to your Lordships for, as well as for the strain of loyalty which pervades it, and the moderate and temperate manner, in which those sentiments and that prayer ore couched. When the Petition was first presented, my Lords, I expressed an anxious hope, and such seemed to be the wish of all your Lordships, that whatever opinions ind ividual Peers may enter t ain u pon the sub;eft, or the upon merits of she Petition, that the subject should be temperately, dispassionately, and impartially discussed. I was happy to perceive then Etch a temper, and such an understand ing prevail; and I now beg leave again to ex press my earnest wish, that this night the import ant subjth and considerations to which I shall hare the honour to call their Lordships' most se rious attention, m..y be temperately :old impartially discussed. Such, niy Lords, is my anxious wish, and such are the prayer and wish of the Petitioners themselves. Such a wish ar.d Mciination, on their parts, are also founded in a due regard to their inte rests upon the occasion—for, from party. rage, clamour, ard violence, they may have much to f e ar, but, certainly, nothing to hope therefrom. I now look, with confidence, my Lords, and with the hest horoik,tbat heats, becau,se I have the honour of addressing myself to a body, ape's selsom party sage, clamour, and violence, are not likely, more especially on such an occasion as the present, to have the smallest weight or influence. With re vel to myself, allow me to say, my Lords, that, if 1 know myself, I am utterly incapable of the a ick edness of speaking with party views or feelings, or for the objeets or ',upon!' of party, while seriously discussing the interests, nay, the rights, of mil lions tif my fellow-whjeffs ; and en a topic on which the peace and unanimity of the empire might even filially depend. These are my own feelings and contiaions on the present occasion--and, I trust, my Lords, that every individual, to whom I now adlress myself, will regulate his conduit, in this important discussion, by similar considerations-- I am as perfeCtly aware, my Lords, of the ardu ousness, as of the importance, of the task I have undertaken. I am aware of the numerous and powerful enemies which I must expe.t, to the pro position I shall have to recommend. I know that it is the subjeCt of unfounded clamour and suspi cion. I know that those, who support and earnestly promote such a proposition, are regarded with sus picion, indifference, and are even, by many, regard ed as hoaile to t:.e civil and religieus establishments of the country ; establishments, the security and perpetuation of which are the dearest °Ojeda of my heart. Considerations such as these, discouraging and dismaying as they may be, shall not prevent we from fulfilling what I regard to be my duty on the present occasion ; and, whatever the event of what I shall have the honour to propose to your Lordships may be, I shall have the heartfelt sans tatlion of having brought before your Lordships, nd before the public, the consideration and discus ion of this great and important question, so that reaper, my Lords, I shall have nothing to reproach -.self, not alone on the score of the itiletloB of hat I shall propose, but on that of the these . nences which may arise from a rejeftion, if such oLappay shall he the decision of this Ilouse. This, y Lords, is not all that I h.tve to remark upon his part of the subjea. The rejeflion, such as L it er to, though I shall regard it as a great misfortune the empire, if such should be the event ; but that misfortune I hold as bearing no comparison to those misfortunes which inevitably mast /ire et sired, if net opportunity was allowed for a, fair nil full discuss:on of the question. Such, my nth, I trust, will be the case this night. The scussion will rest upon such grounds, whatever our decision may be upon it. But it; instead of ch a line of conduCt, the legislature of the coun y were to turn its back upon the discussion, and Catholics to he told that no one Member thereof s willing to present their Petition, or that there ted in Parliament no disposition even to cons'- . their grievances, what, I ask, must, in such a ~ .be the impression upon their minds ? No iiort, my Lords, of absolute despair ; the ef k .1 a non-performance o f that which they re- 1 as promised, t h e d eat h of the i r expettations ! the candour, liberality, and justice of an Im al Parliament; a legislature unfettered by local i detltions t such would their feelings and im sions be, dud the legi s lature manifest an unwil- • actin. • ; C ..., • Tr, ." ,c. ;A lir 0, • 4 right es t s suit es hlel he t; I Oculars ramrod. MOMS. !dentin arolami g i Sun. Ka tie...lW% , Atuittn MOM No Si. JOSIAH nennent's Kai") cbt xrittob SATURDAY, lingnes: to consider what so importantly concerted such a numerous class of their fellow-subjeds. These, my Lords, are considerations to induce us seriously to sttend to the subjed, and constitute my principal motives for bringing it forward to your at tention. Having thus expressed myself in the out set, I rather feel at a loss, impressed with consider ations of the subjea as I am, in what manner I shall begin to lay betore you this grave, serious, and most important question. I shall tiro call your serious attention to the important. fad ; that in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, there exists a population, consisting of at least three millions ; but, according to the highest calculation, flee millions, educated in the Roman Catholic re ligion, professing, and attached to that system. '1 his great portion of our population, my Lords, we have, for every purpose of Government and Le gislation, as persons to he, legally and constitu tionally speaking, considered as Roman Catholics. We cannot therefore regard them as heretofore, when subjeds referring to the Catholics came under our consideration, as a body comparatively small in numbers, and forming a small exception to the great majority of those we had to legislate for; hot we arc to consider them as persons forming three fourths of the population of an important p..rt cl . the United Kingdom, and that so many of our fellow-subjeds, so circumstanced, are to be con sidered and provided fcr, legislatively, as Roman Catholics. Let us look at this part of the case, as it existed ever since the Reformation; but, my Lords, I trust that no man will so /latter himself, that because he wishes the existence, or the pre ponderance of but one religion in Ireland, that it is possi'cle be can shut his eyes against the fad; that there are such a numerous body in that country to be considered as Roman Catholics, and that such have existed, but not in equal proportions, since the era of the Reformation. But for my present purpose, my Lords, without troubling you with con siderations relative to periods so remote, it will he sudicient to point your attention to the grounds on which the restriaions of which the petitioners com plain, existed, from the time of the Revolution, to the kresent reign ; and from the commencement of that to the present moment. What first gave rise to the system adopted, with respect to the Roman Catholics, was the consideration, that, at the time of the Revolution, and for some time after, the great mass of tne Catholic body in this country were unhappily hostile to the revolution, and this hostile spirit soon extended itself to the Ca tholics of Ireland. In those times, of course, reli gious were blended and interwoven with political considerations, as the page of history will convince those who recur to it. It was by no means, my Lords, to punish men for their religious opinions, or to put down those religious, or even civil, doc trines ; but, it was expressly because the persons who professed the Catholic Religion at that time were favoterably maimed to the eailed family. It was then judged expedient,by new and coercive lawn, to exclude the Catholics from a participa tion in the Government and Constitution of the Country. But, that this system of exclusion is now totally unnecessary, is waat I mean to contend, and, with reference to my motion, the policy and the ex rdiency of continuing he restrictions should be canvassed. We know the situation of the country in those days, my Lords, and we know it to be very different from what it is at present. It is hut justice to the memory of a great Prince, my Let-de, and one of the firmest friends of toleration and liberty that ever sat upon the throne, to say, that it is not upon the memory of King William that we must change measures, taken after the accomplishment of,the revolution, or that the system afterwards pursued had his sanc tion or approbation. In a subsequent reign, my Lords, the system pursued, had its rise from the impression that the Catholic in Ireland, merely be cause he was such, always continued the irrecon cileable enemy of the established •religion, and of the established government of his country. It was held that no system of lenity or concession, no lapse of time, no habits of intercourse with his fellow subjeds, would alter the mind or disposition of the Catholic, bu. that he would remain, in principle, and in fad, in eternal hostility to the rovernment and coastestioo of his country. The principle laid down, in consequence of those assumptions, was, that it would be necessary to exclude the Roman Catholics, not only from all share in the govern ment of his country, but to restrain him from en. jnying any kind of interest therein ; he was to be deprived of any interest, because interest would lead to power ; and hr was to ,sosseos no pro perty in the country, because that also would lead to power; even domestic intercourse, or the power of intermarrying with his fellow subjeds, was then withheld from • him. Nay, every means were recurred to, to drive the Irish Catholics from the soil, or, at least, to reduce them to the state of a poor and illiterate peasantry. Of these measures, my Lords, it was well said by a great man, to Never was a system, if the objet were good, just, or wise, mare admirably calculated to accomplish that °Ned, such as it WM." The system certainly was, my Lords, well calculated to prpJuce the desired effects ; for it rendered the un happy objects of it inconsiderable, as members of the community, of no weight, but what they de rived from their numbers, perfectly alienated from their fellow subjeds, and, with minds imbued with no feelings but those of exasperation against them. I do not hold this language, my Lords, with a view to excite your feelings of indignation, but for a dif ferent purpose, that I may be able to present you with a sketch affording a pleasing contrast, afforded by the course of raeasores adopted with respeft to that subject during the auspicious reign of His pre sent Majesty. In this, even should the present ap plication fail ; but, I trust, that ultimately it will not fail—the situation of the Roman Catholics has indeed been greatly ameliorated. This system of amelioration was gradual, my Lord!, and was the . ..- . ilrefo• MAY i i, t sus. ... r - better for being gradual. Sines the acoesslon of our beloved Sovereign, the piaure, with respect to the Irish Catholics, has been nearly reversed, many eels of the Legislature were passed in tneir favour : they have been allowqd Cu iutermarry with their fellow subjeCt, and were, by successive :las, allowed the free exercise of their religion. and the full benefits of religious toleration. They wets gradually restored to their rights in the soil, by being permitted to acquire and retain landed property ; and a full participation of the trade of their country was extended, by abrogating alt commercial restric tions upon them. They have been successively ad mitted to the most essential benefits of the coestita tion, and nearly to the complete enjoyment of it. They were admitted to a share in the elective fran chise, and to a participation in the judicial parts ; beginning with the lowest offices, and proceeding very far towards the highest. All this, my Lords, has been done under his present Majesty, and it shewed that such measures were as well calculated to attain their beneficial, as the systems of preceding r-gns were to accomplish their injurious and de strulive objects. By the Alas sat His Majesty's reign, my Lords, the weahh of Ireland has beau inconceiv ably augmented. No country in Europe, within such a short space of time. has manifested such a degree of improvement, in point of agriculture, general cultivation, and trade, as Ireland has done ; and, above all, in the most important object of civilisa tion. Those who advised such an alteration irf the system, with reseed to Ireland, were not so igno rant, as not to think such beneficial effects must fol low. They shewed themselves principally with re ;pea to the middle ranks, and their benign, influence reached even the very lowest class of society. Such a new and consoling picture shortly presented itself, and manifested a striking contrast with that afforded by the system of exclusion. Such, my Lords, was naturally to be expelled : as the Catholic acquired property in his country, he increased in attachment to it. ['heir condition was graduaily ameliorating in this way, till the year 1793, when a measure, on which I shall always reflex with the highest sa tisfaction, extended almost every other remaining benefit of the Constitution to the participation of the Catholic ; above all, it conferred the valuable privilege of voting for Members of Parliament, and admission to all the Executive Offices, with the exception of the very small number which are named in the Aa of 1793. This, my Lords, pro doted c ff . eas greatly beneficial, and here, for a time, a stand was made,—not because it was just or po litic there to make the Gnat stand, but because the whole proceeded upon the principle of gradual ame lioration ; and it was regarded as expedient, that for a time, acting upon that principle, further con cession should be withheld ; there were also other considerations which operated with Government at that time, and though identified, as the centuries are now, tech an incorporation did nut then exist, ~pad every thing had been grioted, which perhaps could he granted, without a risk of something like a convulsion in that part of the empire. In the first place, the Parliament of Ireland had been con stituted on a plan, the precise °hied of which was, to make the Legislature entirely Protestant, though to the exclusion of three-fourths, at least, of the po pulation of the country. In that point of view, my Lords, the practicability of carrying such a measure, as prayed for by the Petitioners, through a Parliament so constituted, became a serious consideration : Any difficulty, in consequence of doubts arising in the minds of many men, that the admission of Ca tholics into the local Parliament of Ireland may not, ean.idering their increasing wealth and influ ence. throw such a degree of power into their hands, as may endanger the Protestant establish ments of that country. Now, I ask, whether, in an extreme possible case of the kind. difficulties in the then state of things did not present themselves, as to sender questionable the safety of proceeding fur ther? But now happily, my Lords, the great and important measure of the Union, conferring, and likely to confer, such great and lasting benefits upon both countries, has intirely removed the difficulties I alluded to. The fears entertained, in consequence of the great proportion which the Catholics of Ire land bear to their Protestant fellow subjects, must be entirely done away, as the whole population of the United Kingdoms, of which the C itholics form a small comparative portion, must be considered. We are now, therefore, unfettered by those difficul ties, which might have rendered the safety of such a measure questionable, if adopted in a separate Irish Parliament. In consequence of the Union, hopes were excited in the bre.tsts of the Catholics, that a consummation, so desireable as that now prayed for, would take place. But, my Lords, no promise was given to the Catholics that such a measure should be adopted as a consequence of the Union ; but, at the same time. it is equally true, 'that all the arguments used in favour of that measure, without as well as within doors. reasonably induced the expectation that that ques tion would be more completely as weil as effec tually considered of in a United. than it could be in the Local Parliament of Ireland. This line of argument naturally produced its died in the minds of the Catholics, and the persuasion, that it could nut be properly done, without the accom plishment of that great measure. Such were the causes of the hopes distinctly entertained by the Ca tholics on this head, and not assurances held nut to them, by persons authorised to mike such assur ances. Promises were nude, that the Petition should ir presented to the Imperial Pat !lament, which, they were induced to hope. would be,at tentively and deliberately considered ; that it was impossible the Imperial Parliament could refuse to entertain their Petition ; that it should be ex amined, its merits canvassed minutely, and in • detailed way, but ao : ' the claims, by a sweeping derstood pledge ; and I call consequence of it, to tion. I propase now. • • irft I (PRICE sTXrENCP. '~.. + ~ i` +1.., ' measure, though I well know'what measure ought to be taken. All I propose is, that now, this first time, since the union, of this great qtretion b long agitated; and what I ask of yuu to-night, is, that you will consider of it, and with that degree of tem per and moderation, which yott pm -selves recom mended, and endeavour to give, as far as you c t all your fellow-subjefts equal rights, equal privi leges, and equal laws. The motion, my Lords, which I mean to offer this night to your considera tion, is, " That this House do now resolve it self into a Committee, to consider of the Peti tion now presented."—l hope this question will not be negatived; and I think it cannot be negatived, except by those who are net ready, not only to say, they will not agree to the Petition ; but who are ready to say, they will not even enter into the consideration of the silbjen. Ip my mind, my Lords, it is necessary, that the whole of what the Petition asks should be conce.led to the Catholics. If you mean to discharge those obligations imposed upon you by the Lnion, you will provide, by the best means in your power, for the effettual, the real, and the essential union of all the inhabitants of the empire ; sot in name, or io law, only ; but in in terests, in beets, fb sfedions, and, :drove an, is the resolution to defend their common and invaluable constitution against every effort of its enemies. The question is now, merely one of expediency. It has been held, that, for the benefit of the whole, or where the safety of the whole required it, the Legislature have an undoubted right to impose a necessary de gree of restrietion. The question now, my Lords, re solves into the consideration, whether a necessity ex ists, or whether it be even expedient that restriftiont, such as the Petitioners complain of. should be conti nued on between four and five millions of our fellow subjeas ; that so great a proportion of them should be debarred from a due share in the privileges and rights of the Constitution of their country ? I con tend, my Lords, that it is incumbent on those who maintain that the continnence of the restrietions is necessary, to prove that necessity; a necessity which they are bound to show, as long they conti nue to defend the crintieuance of such restriieions, and thereby to deprive such a number of their fel low-subjects of the benefits of our common constitu tion. I am, in this general view of the case, my Lords, fully entitled to call upon those who assert the necessity of continuing the restrictions to call upon them for the proofs of it ; bat, I am willing to take the proof on myself, and feel confident that I could make out such a case as would folly manifest the right of the Petitioners to whet they require'. It is, my Lords, acknowledged, that in principle. the British Constitution is founded upon equal laws. Under this, therefore, it cannot be denied, that a considerable degree of exclusion should not operate against four or five millions, without some manifest or palpable necessity existing forit. The Catheliesed Ireland are still excluded from a varietrof offices in the Government of there country ; as e onf those et Shang. and its a greater degree from (Ades its (*" 1 -- i potations. On these a question naturetly affsesiswitme necessity exists for corium:ling these restrictions one moment longer? It has lseeii said, and dwelt upon, my Lords, that the nature of the Catholic religion is such, that no true possessor of it can beg good subjea, under a Protestant Government. If thews he such a religion, my Lords; if its members be unfit to be admitted into the Legislature, or into-the highest offices, I have to ask them, why have they been freely admitted into all the offices of their country, with the exception of at most between thirty and forty offices? Why admit them into the army, with the exception of their not being General Officers, cv to the receipt and administration of the revenues, with very few exceptions, if they are to be regarded in a light little different from that of traitors ? If they hold such a religion as described, why are they suffered to come into the Courts ct Justice, and swear allegiance to your Government? Why is all this mimed, if it be held that no Catholic can be a tree sad loyal subjeet ? It would be a waste of ease, and of words, to refute propositions so extra. vagant—so absurd—so monstrous. I can refer to better proof of the Contrary, than can be ex tracted from old books or musty records; from the decrees of counsels, hundreds of yeas dd, which have been ransacked for arguments, aeaiast trusting to the oaths of Catholics—to arguments not drawn from what the Catholics most solemnly profess, but from what their opponents cause to assert of that religion. These assert.. they hold no faith is to he kept with the Heretics—what they have sworn and aCted up to—the pnnciples admitted. both by the Legislatures of Eneland and of Ireland, are proofs to the contrary. t hope that for ant purpose of Government their own constraelion of their religion, and what they acknowledge, will be taken preferably to what others met , think. ware the principles of their religion a.- some encient and ob. solste periods of history. It these printipl-s be always acted upon. I know not where persecution is to end. If you believe that every man who professes the Catholic religion, professes that which gees to the overthrowot yotteProtestant and Monarc!:icalGevern rnent, it goes to say, that neither now nor hereafter, will you agree to the removal of these restrietioes, and that you would ever recall whet concessions have made ; nay, a wish to drive from the soil oic the country persons to be regarded as itritererellim able enemies to the constitution and government of , your ceontry. Bur, my Lords, how cnot'avy iv all these considerations are the real faets of the eases: is it not true, that Catholic Cotietriet, even at Rome (that mistress of the arts), are not Preitene ants as much in safety, or at their ease, es in Pro. testant Coun.ries ? boo not many of your Lord ships know, that in these countries no symptoms of persecutioa l ona reputed Heretics even ap pear to exist ? With respect, therefore, my Lords, to '.~ LATIVASSe(I minutely , ana in a pear to emu Wan respect, tneretore, my Lords, to idea was held out, of granting to the assertion, that the mass of the Catholics in weeping vote. '4 his WAS the ua- Ireland are turbulent and dish.yal—if that were thtt id I tail upon you, my I.nrsls, in can, if they were voalre.led As in the re.^n of Kin; o take the subjed into considers- William,—upon what ground, upon what princ.- ow, the adoption of no :pectic pies, I ask, can these Aias of the Protestant `erg i rig net 4 1 hte.l le he. I Ntoy.' 3• la I Gori. 11 .00 . 1 ym•s, Ea. et UG. Etl&n7 :F- r NO. 47(04 :woos einak at el aall arm, us. it (lay evlai '(,tbes cubi, ~~ n ur. et :ie. le d • 4e is cline Ltvl ~Y. rv:wf, ;AR- Il t't rtm. oin nka', 4; at f nali. Y, the 'el , wi COM. • 'ISO' f Y. : 1/004 : re.tl 1.1• at C. LY. t'i hh s•xe• ~,r. 'e and ewe! 1 .3•014 I,:t.ty