The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1805-03-09 00:00:00

-`*.! former debate in support of the Additional Defence Bill, and contended that, from the united operation and effeas of the different measures for the regula lion of the military system, the army was consider ably increased, and in a progressive state of im provement and increase; so that, upon the whole, there was every reason to hope for the expelled state of amelioration. With respea to discipline and increased numbers, it was therefore evidently unsafe materially to alter or derange that system. From the plans that were now in operation for or ganising the force for limited service, the Regular Army or disposeable force would be materially be nefitted. From what he had stated, he trusted it would appear to their Lordships, that no fewer than 48,000 men had been added to our military force within the year, as well by the ordinary mode of recruiting, as the other means of raising men, which were in a train of operation. He contended, that on the grounds of 28,000 men being raised within-so short an interval, the prospea of a tar greater and progressive increase, and the certainty of an improved and improving state of discipline and preparation ; it was evident no necessity what ever existed for the proceeding called fur by the noble Lord's motion. Proceeding again to a de tached consideraeion of the subj eft, he contended, that from the numbers raised already in the course of the present year, there was every right, taking an average cakulation, to suppose that 24,000 men, at least, would be raised before the expiration of the year. Let these numbers be compared with the numbers of men raised within the same intervals, at former periods, and the general conclusion would be still more strongly in his favour. The present aggregate military - force was within se small a num ber as 8000, of what it amounted to in the conclud ing years of the date war ; taking the subject in every passible point of view, the Legislature, and the Government were called upon to persevere in the system already laid down; the more especially. when the situation of the country, with relation to foreign powers, and still more so, with respell tothe enemy, was considered ; and particularly as tar as a disposeable force was concerned. His Lord ship spoke shortly in defence of the Army of Re serve BiU, deeming it upon the whole a good Mea sure, and through which, a number of men were raised; but at the same time admitted its unavoida: bly injurious tendency, in raising, through the me dium of competition, the bounties to a vety high rate. With respell to the Noble Baron's calcula tion, that not a greater number than 51,000 men were obtained for general service, he beg s ed to differ from him. By his referring to the docu ments. he thought, it must incentrovertilny appear that 74,000 men were at least obtained for that service. In reference to the idols suggested, rela tive to the biack corps, he had to observe, that steps were taken for the amelioration of that part of our colonial &nee ; and is to the rules by which we sea were guided, in selecting troops for the West India station, be had only to remark, that care was taken, that such men were preferably seat out, as were least likely to be injured by those climates. Upon the whole, he trusted, that he had proved, awl he hoped the determination of their Lordships would evince it, that no adequate mason or ground existed for the appointment of such a Committee as was moved fur by the Noble Lord. Earl STANHOPE said, that the notification of the motion now before the House had induced hie attendance this night. He thought the motion of his Noble Friend one of the best in every point of view, that could possibly be devised, in the present cir cumstances offthe country : the motion did his Noble Friend credit, as well as his mode of treating the subjea. The Noble Secretary of State, who an swered, or the rather, who attempted to answer his Noble Friend, expressed his hope the House would decide against the motion ; and his hope, his wish, and his advice to the House were that the mo tion should be agreed to. From the general terms of the motion, which was, that a Committee be ap pointed to revise tie Ads that have been passed the two last Sessions, for the defence of the country, it was allowable for him to enter into a discus sion of these Afts, of one of them, at least, be should do so, and he trusted in such a way, although it ' was considered by his Noble Friend, in that point of view, as that he should convince their Lordships its leading provisions were znischevious, injurioes, and absurd. The view taken by his Noble Felted of the act to which he alluded, was chiefly of a mili tary nature. In what he had laid down in that view of it, be agreedotrith his Noble Friend, but Use view. he should take of it was a still more impoi tam oat. The fad of its predacity but a very sreallnumber of men. was a disadvantage, but its most objedionabk effects lay deeper, and in these views of it, the con sequences of the measure were truly alarming. Were he to sate fi OM memory, certain claws anal provisi ons of the Bill to which he alluded. their Lordships would regard it to be impossible, that any Aft of Parliament should contain such clauses and provi sions. But be had a printed copy of the Bill in his pocket, to tkis he would refer, and if any of their Lordships doubted the correetness of his print, they could compare it with the statute upon the table. It was the Ad for raising and maintaining a per manent Additional Force, 4c. and passed the 29th day of June last. In the With union of this Aa, for he wished regularly to refer their Lordships to the chapter and verse which he quoted, the parish officers were entitled to certain sums. In the 24th seltion. the bounties were not to exceed three fourths of the money which should from time to time be allowed as bounties, for the in fantry for general service. This was done, no doubt, from a conviction that three-fourths of the bounty would be more acceptable than the whole /A lead end general lac b/ ; or it might be done upon a calculation of the difference in value, between men so raised. and those enlisted for general sea vice. By the 33d Se Rion, inspeetors were so ascertain the de ficiencies io the - doers allotted - raised by the of the peace in propor e Skh clause be levied, but They were then but he wished to be in the prices of v ! The last tly, he bad . referred to nay, it went something deeper, and, to the full, made as effeitive a part of the famine-mongering system ! (a laud I laugh.) This was a strong incontrovertible reason for the committee required by the motion, in order that at least such a nuisance, such an engine in the system of starvation, may he done away. It was not only helping to starve the poor, but, through a rise of the price of labour, to raise the price of ma nufaftures, and so injure their sale in foreign mar kets ; from that would spring the ruin of the com merce of the country, thence the ruin of its navy and the shipping interests, and, with these, the ruin of its military defence. The antidotes to these dreadful disorders may be had in the discontinu ance of a system which starved and fami the people. Better were it not to tax the farmers at all; for whatever taxes were laid on them, would, in case of all dire& taxes on the tallow chandler, the brew.a., &c. induce a rise in prices of grain and corn, articles of the first necessity. The rise in these would necessarily beget a rise in the prices of labour ; and that by a necessary and mischievous progre,sion would re-all, so as to produce a still further rise in the prices of corn and grain. The efFe& of the Bill was direly to tax the farmer, in addition to all his other, and increasing burthens. It was obvious that the prices of provision had in creased, were increasing, and ought to be dimi nished. He knew not what the opinion of one of the Secretaries of State might be on these topics; but what was once the opinion of his father, he well. knew, from a book written by that personage while Mr. Jenkinson. He feared it was nut of print ; but he would advise the Noble Secretary of State to have it reprinted; for a better written, more learned, more legal, or more' constitutional book he never read. The conduit of the late Minister, in many points of view, civil as well as military, was such as redounded greatly to his honour, and he hoped that person, now a Member of that House, and a Minister again, would alt consistently with his for mer principies, and vote against the Bill that night. One of his best measures was the arming of the people, though they were not so generally armed as he could wish. It would be imprudent in the ex treme, however, to place arms in the hands. of the people, and afterwards to starve them ; but he thought the Minister alluded to would do well to vote against the measure, the dangerous and destruo;ve measure of those who had abused him unworthily. Abused by a man of more brilliant talents, but of less sound sense and judg ment, the late Minister has more good sense in his little finger, than the presmt Chancellor of the Es chequer has M his whole body 1 (a laud laugh). Hie great thing; that would be done, if the present Minister came into power, were clamoure i all over the town. His vigorous measures and effeilual plan. of dete:,ce were loudly spoken of. Well, he tfd come iuto power, and what was the cony•quence the mountainswere in labour—thisnoisy mountainwas in labour—and outsprang, what ?—a ridiculous mouse! (Lazed sad :carrel lassihterl. A Royal Duke, whom he saw now in his place, was not present when his Noble Fri sod addressed the Noose—else he would have heard some strong reasons against the regula tion of enlisting men for life.—They should' certainly be engaged for a shorter time. He begged leave to mention that idea, ia the presence of His Royal Ilighaeu (the Duke of York had no; Icing before entered the House). There was a very able trait on the subjeß, written by Lieutenant Colonel Wilson, it was " An Enquiry into the State of the Army." He strongly recom mended the total abolition, except in some very rare cales, of corporal minishment in the army; this principle h • strongly recommended to the consider ation of those who hail the power of ailing noon it. As to the other parts of the subject, his Noble Friend had done it so much justice, that he would not add another word, than to express his hearty assent to the \lo; The E \ RL rr RONINEY began by expressing his surprise at the whole of what had been said by the Noble Earl who had jests sat dawn, and most particularly s., in what he had said as to his Noble Friend opposite (lased Caars.len), having brought the army into a state of undiseipline at the time he was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. a Su far from that beiug the case," said Lord Romney, " I verily believe that it is to the excellent measures arid strenuous ex ertions of that Noble Earl, that we owe the safety of Ireland, and without which that part of the empire would have been lost to this. Sn far from injuring the discipline of the Arosy, his Noble Friend had put arms into the hands of a large body of 11i1030o. zealously attached to the cause of their sing and country, whose loyalty then impelled them to offer their services to combat insatereftion and rebellion within, as welt as t le enemies without the country, and which men (we imagine his Lordsbip alluded to the Yeomanry) had been brought to as high a state of discipline as those of any army in the world. Bet there was one part of the speech of the Noble herd who spoke last that was nage% extrae.rsiinary indeed: ke said that !louse had first dared to put arms into thehands of the people., and then, afterwards, had dared to attempt their starvation. Good God t what bad they slow ? When he heard the words, his hair stood on end ! The Noble Earl imputes that to. their Lordships which was altogether the ad of Providence, viz, a bad crop. the eff:.l.s of which he knew and larner.:e.l as much as anyone. Their Lord. shipscouid not co.ltroul the seasons, nor make the corn grow ie. r.pite of their opposition; had we obtained a fair crop, he was certain there would have been no occasion fir discontent—that under the guidarce of Providence was the sole cause of die high prices which had taken place in the necessaries of life, and it wa:. not fair to itrtput them to any aft of the Legislature." His Lordship begged pardon for this digression, into which he had natu rally been led by the observations of the Noble Earl, and then proceeded to advert to the Bill in question iu this debate. He allowed that it had not fully answered the intentions for which it was framed ; but he attributed this, in a considerable degree, to have happened from the Bill not having as yet had a fair trial. He knew, however, tram pretty good authority, that it was the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman who framed it, to snake many ma terial alterations in it ; and he had no doubt that by these means it might be made proJuSive of great and important advantages to die service and defence of the country ; and, in matters of this kind, he should wish such aiterati ms as neigh; be necessary, to come from that quarter. flit Lordship said, he never was, nor ever would be, the ?max), any adusi • nistration ; but he would never do any thing which might tend to distress them at such times, especially as the circumstances of the country ,required for them support. The Noble Earl who spobe last had stated that the people were distressed and discon tented, and our manufadtures on the decline, and the manuffiaurers unemployed. He was happy to say, he had every reason to believe the very reverse to be the truth of the fat; that our manufaeures are in the most prosperous and flourishing state, the people perfettly contented and happy in the pleas ing contemplation that their situation abounds wikh the greatest blessings, when they compare with it that of every other nation in Europe; and, from the confidence they reposed in the present Government, he believed they were itaanimous in their zeal and enthusiasm for the defence of the country, and of the blessings they enjoyed under our invaluable Constitution. His Lordship then adverted to the Volunteers, to whose exertions and ardour he gave great praise, and particularly to those of his county (Kent). which, he declared, were as well disciplined as any army in the world need to be. He was sorry, he said, to have detained their Lordships so long, but he had been led on to say more than he intended, from a wish to throw a proper degree of light on the gloomy piaine which the Noble Earl who spoke last had drawn of the state and situation of the country. His Lordship concluded by saying that the present Motion should have hi: hearty dissent. The Earl of CARLISLE said, that if inquiry was so necessary last year as had been held to be by certain Noble Lords on the opposite side of the House, he was at a loss to find out why it was not equally so at present. Those Noble Lords were last year the most strenuous and vehement for an inquiry into the state of the military defence of the country, because they then said the measures pur sued, and pursuing by the then Administration, were weak, inefficient, and inadequate to the pur pose : every abuse was thrown on the folly, inca pacity, and imbecility of those who brought,forward those measures ; and a Noble Earl, now in this House, but who was then at the head of His Ma jesty's Administration in the other House, was driven from M. place on account of the imbecility of those measures. Such a proceeding, he believed, was never known before. He then adverted to Wire these measures were, which were then called so in adequate, and said, the last of than was the Noble Lord's Army of Reserve Bill; the reason given for the violent abuse of which was that it produced only a few men ; but now comes this poor, wretched, con temptible Parish Bill, which turned Parish Officers into recruiting serjeants,and yet produced fewer men, bur is now called a better Bill, and all inquiry into it is unnecessary. His Lordship supposed the,No ble Lords would carry the argument up to its ut most climax, and contend that a Bill that raised no men at all, would he the best of all possible Bills. It was like the man of the Play" who complained that Ili+ wound was bad hecaus it was Ys small ; then replied another, It would be larger had you noise at all. In answer to the argoment of the Noble Earl who spoke last, that the Bill had not had a fair trial, his Lordship observed. that it had been passed as a Bill that was to have a speedy and forcible elle& ; that was to produce men in great numbers. and in a short time; and if, after several months, it is al leged that it has not nad a fair trial. Why wa, it ever brought forward ? Why was it ever aced on It teas to supersede measures which had raised a ' great many men in a very litt'e time, but which were pretended by the frames of .his Bill to be inef ficient and imbecile, yet tutu out to be a more weak and ricketty brat than any of them. His Lordshipcontended further, that the Committee now moved for by his Noble Friend would embracc many points more than that as to the number of men which had been raised under this Bill, and deprecated the hackneyed and antiquated argument of Ministers not being pressed in time of war, as that to which theit Lordships ought not to lend an ear. He said such a Committee w. uld very properly inquire into the propriety of what had been suggested as to enlisting men fur a limited time of service, which had been highly recommended by many excellent writers on' military affairs, as particularly relating to our own service : the Militia and Volunteer system might also come under their revision ; and though he had the highest opinion of both the Militia and Volun teers, there were, no doubt, many improvements which yet might be made in both those systems. He thought inquiry seas full as necessary now as it was last year, and he expeeled an answer flora that strong phalanx of Ministers who sat opposite to him, which should, at least, contain some reason why in quiry was so necessary and so loudly called for in the case of the weak and imbecile measure of the Noble Lord (Sidmouth), and so very unnecessary in that of the present Bill. which is far the weakest and most imbecile of any that has yet been produced. On these grout:ds he Mould vote for the Motion of I his Noble Friend Lord HAWKESBURY said, he was anxious to obtain their Lordships attention in this early part of the debate, and to give his reasons for ohjeaing to this Motion, which was, in fa', in its direa and ulti mate tendency, nothing less fiats to desire their Lordships to devolve the whole Military Defence of the Country to a Cannnittee of that House. This was not the professeao ljedt of the Motion; but the manner in ,vhich it was couched and worded, went that length io the effees attendant on it. He saw, however, most clearly, that it went to express to the world a want of confidence in Ministers; and the fair and manly way to do this would be by an Address to His Majesty to remove them. Having stated this, he adverted immediately to the Military state of the country. The first question was the general amount of the force. '1•o hear the argu-* ments used by Noble Lords, any stranger would be inclined to believe it was very trifling indeed, or less than it had ever beea. If, however, the fait should turn out to be the very reverse of this, what could justify their Lordships in taking the military affairs of the country out of the able hands in which they are now placed, to put them into their own ? The present total amount of the forces was very little under 4.00,000 men, exclusive of volunteers, which, taking the population of Great Britain and Ireland at 15,000,000, the fourth part would amount to about 3,750,000, so that of the aEhve population, we have as many as one man in ten. His Lord ship then proceeded to compare this with the force employed is other countries, and began with kt ficiencies in the numbers allotted t o b e r a t respeflive parishes, on which justices of were authorised to assess such parishes, skin to the deficiencies aforesaid ; ;he tutted, that such penalties should be not paid oat of the poor's rates. The: necessarily to fall upon the farmers ; bui to know, how these farme rs were siemnified. How ? but by raising the c.ro and provisions i ppon the people! i hill, which ailifillifiXhabitthin • s direal rsingly to o. ,1: N I . , 0...1. \ now was Na y [A , 16...:011;10. ,t, : -,, nas w 4 " it, " Vl.) 0 ... ' . ‘. _ . s'4) v i rs. •c. a% ' 'lmr` • France, %arise army and navy did not amount to mote than 360,000 men,,which, taking their po pu h. tion at 34 millions, was not more than one man io fourtein. Russia and Austria were nearly the same ; the only country in which an equal comparison, could be made with this was Prtsinia, whose poptil,-' tion w.ts n arty the same as our own, but then it was to he recolleaed that the army of Prussia was net A national one, but mostly composed of foreigners. The result WAS, that while France, Russia, ant [A n , trig, gave no more s cif their, aCtive population th en one in fourteen, this country gave one in ten. Il e volunteers of Great Britain and Ireland, his Lord. ship said, amounted to more than 810,000, vibid, was nearly one in faur of the aaive population, aril he insisted that, in times even of insurrections and revolutions, in the very era of even Robespierre him. self, when every engine of terror and blood was at work to raise men, they never had so great a num bei in France as we have at the present moment this country, not growing out of insarreCtien, ror, bloodshed, and ruin, but out of good discipline, loyalty, and zeal for their count. welfare. Looking therefore at the stated for: • , Lad described it, WAS there any ground to del.. • military defence to a Committee ? It had !'e that there had been a considerable ditnintitio a volunteer force. This he was prepared t, The highest number to which it ever had a•i:. , • was 380,000 wen, including officers, &c. :to 341.000 rank and file. It is true, we cannot snd 04 inspeCtion more than 3;0,000, which is a large pro. portion, that were effeClive. The last insist:Choi vest 307,000, so that there -was no greater deficiency than 3000; and out of these, 150,000 were in even respect effective and fit for any service, and the., were not more than 22,000, that could be said to be undisciplined. His Lordship was happy, ho wee ,... in being able to state, that more than 200,in0 of the volunteers have been on adual service sa %%tn. ous times, have been subjea to the Mutiny Di I, have submitted to be under its regulations and its rules, and have thereby evinced their willing. nese and zeal to serve their country, and w defend it against every enemy that shall at tempt to invade it. He thought it necessary, ke said. in state thus much on that subj . ea, in order to show they were not materially diminished in num• her, and were highly improved in discipline. He came now to the regular army, and here lie must observe, that ministers had been accused, when that subjes was brought forward, they always talked in .this he denied to be the case ; both the last andthe present administration had always come forward with-a fair and explicit statement of the amount of the regular army, and had not, in any one lustre, klesvit themselves disposed t o bli n k the vies n. The army now, exclusive of the mi litia, and, ia, speaking of this, not only the qua. tity, but the quality is also to be considered; the amount of the army, at present, is 16%000, which is, in point Of'numbers equal, and in discipline supe rior, to thetof last year ; of this, nearly 80,000 were in the different colonies, and the remainder were so disposed of at home as to render our disposeable force more effeaive and larger than it hat ever beta since the c,einenc anent of the war. If then he hal established the fah, that we bad a larger army in its amount than any other country.; if he had she..a that it wasin a higher stare of discipline than at ..a r former period ' • whet reason could there be f o r a. Committee? That House, and every part of the/ country, had ever, shewn themselves jealous of en- trusting the•management of military affairs in any other hands than those of the Crown. The HOWe had very properly entertained that jealousy; and it was clearly of opinion that all measures of this kind should originate with the Executive Government. (4 el?, q t . Hear! Hear ! Hear ! from the els, nista of the Hesse.) His Lordship repeated, that he thoug:e all measures of this kind ought to originate from th e Executive Government. When he said this, be did not deny but measures of this aaturemay have been prom:seed by others; but when, they are, they ought always to be precise and specific in their °math:a ; whergas this motion was perfealy novel, and went. from the way in which it is worded, to embrace many points,whioh ought not to rest any where but is the CroWn. His Lordship asked, what were the ground on which this motion stood ? Ile had shewn, that e 'could not be from the quantity or quality of ow forces, then it must be because it Was alleged then was no increase since the last year. This, however, WAS not so ; we have aeli.ally an increase of tii,ooo in our home force, and 20,000 in our disposeable force. His Lordship denied, therefore, that this AS had been, as was said of it, ineffeCtual. It had, oa the contrary, been limy considerably effeCtive, And would be more so, if allowed to proceed. The ordinary recruiting had been increased by it, whicti bad before been very much impaired. Army of Reserve Bill had raised a gnat :writer of men in a short time, but had been lined to be attended with many inconveniences, amongst which was that material and important one of raising the bounties. These inconveniences all fit direetly in the wry of the success of the p,. sot Bill at its first outset. To judge fairly s f its probable success, they should look at its upeiatioe for the last three months, and they would tofr be better able to judge what it was likely to in future. His Lordship agreed in opinion with tin Noble Baron who brought forward the nrozis ts, .o to the general scope of his argument respeaii.g black corps; but the Noble Baron • that, notwithstanding such a sort be the best for the defence of in such .a climate, yet it is of that kind cularly requires that limitation shoul to; for, it would be always necessary it to the number of white inhabitants, the number of white troops employed of the islands. His Lordship next a subjeit of enlisting men for limited had been sn much praised, and wh ch deserve much of the encomium that For his own part, he had given it and consideration in his power ; he high importance, that he would ha‘ master of it, if he could ; but he those who were best informed on the he had consulted, so much doubt • that tho' there might be aslppearance in many points of view, there were contrary tendency which presented the same time, that he thought it w& and safer to adhere to the mode which Constitution had pointed um, which n most otiesvis 2 t of force c:af rich a kind which ,ould be atteii.iril ary to proporto nts, as well as ied in the deka& a 'vetted to the d service, whirl ch might pose b!! at was paid to i it every aUentio found it of sue eve made hinnei e found, amen: he subjeav who' t as to its num. Ince of advants t .e so many nt I d themsclvel , n t would be bet bich our eicelli c Lich had with Q