The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1809-05-12 00:00:00

. • • f • eatepet ; nod Ii 3 not mean to %mutt at (be 'established practice of the House. use. I'rutia My, thin', think that thectedluare course ofcallinKitrion an iitiii6idurl to answer a charge, instead Of with ' drawing, appellee to bee attended with some degree of embarrassment. It is coyish* iuconsistent with propriety that he sliodkl be called itpou to take a part in the discussion upon the charge • brought eguinet himself, and yet hot be permitted to influence the decision by hie vote, whorl that dis cussion is dared. I should be disposed, however, to conform to the practice, if nut the law of the House, were it not that I sun convinced, that toy presence would only tei..l to fetter and restrain the proceedings-that may take place, and therefore shall, after a few word*, be inclined, with your per mission; to withdraw. I certainly think, that the person so charged, shOulvf nether be allowed to a sale at the close than at the commencement of the discussion, as he might then be better able t. (,serve upon the question, ill all its various bear , i , 4.. I et/atria I have felt exceedingly great doubt m tire course I shoidel pursue,. in the address I eld nicks to the House repot) this occasion. If ..lt it to be a case of an ordinary nature, in which it i•riminatory proccetlitie was iastituted against. ' a a s individual, whether a hlember or not, I should be disposed to meet the statetrient that may be made out with such a denial as must arise from a cenriction. that it is perfectly unfounded, or give oceh exptruati.rit ss might be necessary, of that part pinch appeared incorrect, and voter into an exami petion of the Ines that applied to it, so us to enable toe •House to come to is proper slecisioa upon it, but I cannot leek upon this case in that light. The ' , itateaseut mad, ante the proceedings alrevity adopt ed. preverit me from looking Nam it in that puiat of • view, for thy Hon. Member. has stated that there is - a mess of other matters to be inquired into, teal • to it this May be cousidered as the firseof ma series of vistheitions. He lies alluded. I believe. :u Qv • •Iti. borough, Hastitigs,Ree, and ether places, watt re lie conceives appoilitinclits have been made to iallu rime elections, and has stated that piy.uents bee been made for that purpose out of the pockets of the people. Ile has also told us, that it is not so much with a view of vindicating the injured honour of the House, hut that lie is in pursuit of one plain object. of which he gave notice at as earlier period of this session, and tingles me and my Noble Friend out us examples, 111 order. to il:nstrate the necessity of roi.:e ding to the plain of Parliament cry Roform, or o hick he gave notice. That no tice was withdrawn. and this une its room ; and therefore I must consider this ae the first s;op which he coliceiv-s eccessary to • effect his purpose of ate-farm. Ntlica I ere that hr is laying a precedent fur himself bed othenh I feel it indispensably necessary to take care that I do pot establish that- which would be twist slatigereas in the case of a charge wade basil: proof, by entertog into a detail of what chane net. and what mean were used. and what individn els were connected with him who is the object of it, when called upon to disclaim use admit it. I con ceive the; this would amount to a dystem of inquisi torial p-oceeding. that would he most ditageesua to all eangdenee Ip ,private sr *anal life. Sir, we live in e time its which we see public informatioas against public men to Ise the pursuit or a great variety of persons, and we ate Oral rise to honour and esteem, through those turan..-•- reformation too we find is obtained through variuns ways. collected through iterate 'confidence. er by the miaure of leuers, and these creninimicated to the pufrlic , sad made the foundation of public barge and insputatiou against public men. When relate this,. I think it will be deemed more con sistent, with decency and decorum to att49.10 from toting any . notice of what the lion. Member her stated as a charge against me. He supposes the matter be has-alluded t0,.t0 have been urgociated by the Noble Lord near me. not wholly with oat my knowleder ; and, therefore. I think it . would be more consistent with.the dignity of the House. that I should content Myself with no other. Mode of denial then with the plea of sot ge:lty; retesting, us I do ' hay ineocertce. Until 1 know. . that the House he disposed en eutereiin the churge, cermet voter into any defence, but I shall be pre pa ed. as I em now at this moment, to explain the whale business most satisfactorily. I hope my dt efiaing fixenter i n to .it wilt not he deemed disre spectful to the House; but 1 eanuot sablestive, that wader these circuiestreicte. and in these times es pecially, et is wise for pubhe men. either upon this ode of the Haase or upoo the other ( to Cuter imp • explimetieas "limn a mere statemeat made by an Haat Member in place ; sad, therefore, I Make my bow to you and to the House, and shall there •by leave the question unembarrassed by any thing that may fall from me." The (tight Flom firm ileum then withdrew. amidst generel cries of bear! bear! Ater! from the Ministerial benches. Lord CVITLItICAGIt next addressed the House in a short speech. in which he exprecied hie sans ciorrence in the sentiments that had fallen from his Right Ron. Friend. the did not feel himself mu. therised to make ally further observation or ex planation at present ; hot should it he the pleasure of the House to investigate .the que.tion further. at the proper moment he should he folly prepared to offer his eentiments. At present, he should follow the example of his Right /fon. Colleagee. The Noble Lord then made a bow to the SPTAILItIt, and withdrew. Mr. TIPPIIVT et/served, that it 'impute's? strange, that the Heuer was left to rtiseirsa a charge, of .which many Members were entirely ignorant, et least those who had corn, in eitlesequeutiv to the • upreeh of the• Honourable Gentleman who had stated at. It nu e! ., .t therefore, he thought, to hue put in somewhat of it 'mire .•ntele:etile shape, even itc eording teethe precedent. Upon Mr. Meociouits's stating, that he should be regulated by the precedent la the ellite of Shop neer& it was then ordered to be read, es before, .when the chaie:e was fret brought before the Home; 'flue s'w..ilitst nbeerv , id, that from precedent rt appeared that the eher,e- was Ii rest :mule, ira reseed, and arrive oriFeed io btr heard evi dence at the Bar. tat .• Ham:. hoviug previmeir di rected that it should be given in to the Member accusal. There wits n came in whielresee. tostrirther was concerned, is which the cbmge was delivered in writing in the first instance; but to this was tint the precedent taken mu the prevent its- ,!‘ , . • stance, the House most be regnlatEd by the other, the case of Shepheard. Mr. Wiliraaxas. said, he apprehended it would not have been consistent with the entitle of pro ceedings', tad his Honourable Friend given iu any writteu charge, and that therefore this being oral charge, he could have no objection to leave out of the motiou, now to be made, the naming any specific day, when • it should he heard at t.ie Bar. We all knew, that in the late cw.e re lative to the Duke of Yolk, the charge was orally made, and yet the House appointed a Committee to . inquire into the charge. As to the statement of his Right Hon. Friend near him, (Mr. Tierney) that many of the Members did not understaud the nature of the charge, he had to chserve, that it was always presumed that all Members were in the - House, and that the House collectively speakihg • was that body present at the time the charge was made, with the eaception, that the individual charged must be tiecesperily present, particularly where an oral charge was mater. 71'o - remove all objections to the motion, he thought that the word stow might be left out, so as to leave the day when evidence should be heard undetermined. Alr. CANNING--" This is of the nature of a double question, the latter part Luesurning an af tirtuative of the former ; and therefore when it is said that the charge shall be taken into considera tion upon a certain day, the Honourable Gentle man -takes it for granted that the charge shall be gone into. This wuuld render the motion objec tionable, but if so altered as has been suggested, I apprehend there can be no objection to the charge . being entertained, and the .first question upon an oral charge is certainly as to whether it shall be entertained or pot. If it be determined that it should be entertained, it will then beconie a mat ter of justice th.tt it sho 11.1 pUt into so clear a bhope, as that it may b. • • in wnting• to the Members so chart( • ••, order that the House luny be • 1,..1 they are to d;-cues upon a funs- d. Lord VI/I.IIVA, •-- • tse be to conform itse:f to tlii. p . turd, I hope they will adopt it •arit . • • we shall fall hi to error. I i ou., • ,tosite says. he hopes that the e'lar.te aAI . to the accused in a I , 4rticalwr f ; dint 11141 be very convenient I. him 1111.1 hi.. V111104..11 ti 1.111 11 is not so in the pre ced, .u. form it there *:.pear* to have hen merely ii c.terai-i t t of the 11•1111.-11 Or places, where corrutition bribery ha.t beta itiieged to have existed. 1 here eau he notiiiitg Irss pn.eiie or particular than such a charge; and therefore 1 think It will be sufficient, to debirr to the prriavit one in as general wurJs were tubed upon thst former occasion. • . Mr. MADIHICILI then begged leave to 1110Y2., " TOrt the matter of the charge be beard at the , &se af Honer'" MG WHITBREAD and Sir Famtcts EuwtaT both rose to seroud this motion. Upon the motion being put from the Chair Mr. ILLigTwltt l inT said, that when he considered that the Hon. Mover of this char_te had sec tided the long string of resstutions, there could he little d.ubt iu his mind th a t thi s was a kind of prepar atory step to Parliamentary Iteforin. lie, for his part, was attached to things as they were, bot was, at the same not indisposed to enter into the consideration of abuses where they alma lu;ely pressed themselves forward into notice, nod where great disativaittage was found to arise from thew. Courts of Law were, however, opeu to every transaction of the present stature. and why trouble the House of Commons with their discus sion? Before he could encourage such motions, he meet be satisfied of the mourn that actuated the movers; for if they were allowed to begin, they would not kuow where to end. They might pull down. but they could not rear, Ile could not sup , (pose that the Ham Member was actuated by any other than hunest motives, but he denied that the general cause of the miutory woos in favour of Re form. lie thought that that unhappy question, as to the Duke of York. had b. a taken up too much in the spirit of triumph ; and that although his Royal flighiseas ought not to have remained longer iu ofiice, yet he should not hare thought of ...thine meetings to congratulate the lion. Member who had brought such a question forward. Those who thought that there were points that ought to be reformed, ought also to relle4 that this was not the proper time fur carrying that Reform into ef . feet. We were now eoutending with the most powerful enemy that we ever lia4 and therefore, it wouW be most dangerous to sow ilivisione through.. out the country, for the purpose of poling the way fer imaginary Reforin. Never was there a °Guidry hi which there was so meat real liberty, and such eqatlity twisting amongst all ranks of society.. lie one instance where a meeting had taken piece, he under. tood that 17 persons had addressed the Mayor.to calla meeting and 70 persons had peti tioned him against it ; in consuqeetice of which the Mayor did not call a Meeting, but yet the 17 persons met, and came to Resolution,. themselves as to Cnnheititlationis and Reform. Was this, he woeld ask, a proper mode of knowing, and sweets tinning the reutseuse of the country ? Lord MILTON sail, he did not know whether the Jon, blember who had just spoken meant to ap ply hW observation/ to all persons wishing for any kind of itei . orm ; but he could say for himself, that if this measure was for Parlimneittary Reform, he (Lord M.) would be the first to oppose it; for he did not Lelieve that any practical good could arise from ,•reform la 'Parliameotory representation. He thoteglit, that the tel reform had, in many iastances, hem 'sorbed improperly ; but there were certain circumstances iittimeling returns to Parlia.u.oit that ought to be recoiled, and prat tiers that might to be put ste end. to ; amongst others the evident ititerfereuce of Government in elections, which had a most daugernus tendency. Whether this charge were proved or not proved against the preionit Ministers, he should not have ono jot the worse poi Mitts of them than he at present had few whatthey had dune, for lie could not conceive thoutheir eunditet could he trailed criminal for dos log that whxh Inel been done by ma governments taut lead existed before them :Ind will he done by nil that may fellow them. All reforms must he. gin by intlictittg setae hardships upon some indi vidnal or individuals. end uponoltis oetasion the reform sought for might probably end in hardship nixie theme two individeds• now licensed. With rev p. to the nto•:on time made, there might its owed be inconveuielfre 'wising from if, as we had seen in regard to the evidence adduced at the bar upon a late uccasion, and therefore he thought. that a Committee above stairs might be preferable to any other, mode of investigation. It wai upon that account he should prof oselis an amendment to the motion,—" That iii,tead of the words s That the charge he herd at the' bar of this House,' " there be substituted the• wWrds. That the matter of charge be referred to a Committee above stairs." The SPEAKI:ft then put the motion and the amendment from the Chair. _ . . , . Sir CitstlLEs MORGAN opposed both the motion and the amendment, as he conceived tine to be the columenceusent of a system aigainst which every man ought to make a stand who valued either the 'dignity of the House or the safety of the country. Weald She Hon. Gentlemen who easide this ininiou be satisfied with the victims he hid selected t No, many mere must be filtered through the pu rifyiug vessel of Reform.. It wen a plau chiatited ostensibly with the garb of public virtue, but was stripped much of • that experience mid motives which characterized Reform, if these Reformers were to succeed ass their attempts. we vseuld• nut only be fouud without a !pensioner, but without a Minister mamiest us, and than what. were we to do? We slosiild not he able to find any man to undertake a public situation.—He e 4,1 not wish to see a new order of things; and by no means wished to have the valuable time of the House thus taken tap in discussing theoretical improvements instead of attending to the necessary public business. .He had heard much of attending to the voice of the people ; but much us lie vs. hued the approbation of his constituents, he not be influenced by them to act ei. strury to' what he conceived to be the dictates of the constitution. Under the couviction, therefore, that the House would be doing more gtsod by rejecting, than by listening to this acemation against two of its Mene. ben, he could not help giving the Motion his dc.ided negative. Sir JOHN ASSTittrelfEtt opposed. the There appeared to him to be one set of men deter.; mined upon upholding all things, and another equally determined upon pulling down eve's thing that was venerable in the Constitution. lie con ceived the latter to have opened the ball with a Noble Lord, and that, pursuing their progress, they alight have confined thensselves to the present charge merely ; hat he felt himself beimd to state his objections, founded on justice and candour, which was, that thq state the whole of their case at olive, and not bring it forward piecemeal. It w as said to be a case of - Parliamentnay reform; but the present motion proposed nothing like reform. • By snaking one accusation neelay, another twetiorrow, ends third the next day, they might possibly gra tify the public taste .for the moment, but they Would do nothing. towards the promotion ; re form ;on the contrary, they would be only leading to public dietructiou. Ile would not be wider. stood, Cy any thing which he advanced, as being adverse to the question of Reform, as a ge nt rid proposition, but merely to the means by which it was attempted to be promoted. A Noble Lord had stated, that he thought something should be done for the purpose of prtveuting the increase of the influence of the Crown. This might be a good argument, as applied to the ne cessity of adopting prospective sneesures ; but how would this apply to chtirges, which were meant to criminate with respect to the past ? to such he ob jected as far as they were retrospective. With the meaning or import of the term information, as technically used on this occasion, he diffes ed. lle understood it to mean something that conveyed acme precise intelligible meaning, that could not be.misunderstood. Had the Honourable Member conveyed say such to the House ? If, on the con trary, it was of so loose and vague a nature, us that a Court of Justice would not call for taut answer, was that dowse hound to proceed on the most op-. posite principles ? . What was the suns total of t han charge ? • That an Hon. Member lied thross;;;11 ther deposited a sum of money For the purpose of purchasing a twat m Parliament. Upon ILlMlXgt`bl ion so vague and undefined as that, was the confidence of inmate life to be violated for the purpose of gra tiking public seandal ? Compared to the present, he cosiiiidered the charges brought against a Noble 1 Marquis as candid and fair, fqr it was but fair that ''the House ahosifif be enabled to judge, whether ehnrges were (handed in fact or in malice. He called on. the House to bear in mind with wlui• art the public mind had heersof late excited; it was arid they were upow by the paLiic voice. Ile would have theta take.winiting and consider well before they proceeded; for his part, he felt it Conviction there existed no public voice on the. subject of Re form ; on the cnntiary, he firmly believed its ad vocates were otity to be found is public clamour. With.rwpect to the motion itself, it appeared to him as only cnlculated for the purpose of scattering surmises abroad; by bringing forward ooe motion to-day, another to-morrow, and so on in order to excite discontent in the public mind. For him self, he ennclivied that nothing could be wore un just thou to call for answers to charges at the pre sent time, when by the Bill now artuAy before the Home, prospective measures were in agitation for tjtepurpose of preventing the recurrence of simi lar evils in future. Mr. COWEN &elated he felt no little hesitation as to the part winch he ought to take on the pre sent occasion. If the charge now brought torwurd should prove in the event unfounded. a to avy re sponsibility would Felton those who made it ; if, on the contrary, the charges were merely generally of gaining a seat is the House by whate%er meting, perhaps he might not give a vote on the subject; but alien that charge was made against the public Ministers of the Crown, it then became iii hi. m i n d a serious question indeed: It could not be dis puted thit there were no means by which we could promise ourselves u probable chance of existence, hut by setting seriously shout the worlt•of Reform; hut at the same time lie could not deity that perhaps this was not the precise period at which that could be best undertaken. IF measures could be adopt ed adequate to the end proposed, and at the stuns time compatible with the public safety, he certain ly ahonid most cordially agree with aily proposition tending to*that purpose, end he could have wished the nom. Stover hsd waited- for the Bill now be fore the Mow, for the vrformition of abuses.--: If the noose were coastituted as it ought, all 4 ) 3 • . . would be well ; if oa the re:Weirs, r. fain eat men. tially necessary, it would lie act% perhaps, to pass by the tail that was pest. arid to look foiwurd with hope to the future; hit on the whole Ile kit hound to style-at the pale roll. Mr. BlDOULPllcureattel,J, that dna house was the only proper tiilauter Lena*. wI icli offence* of the' :suture stated and coneu:ai.al I id•could properly brought forward and intestiaterl. p ith t— ierce to the motives which might intl.:viler any men to make the charge, if made befere uuy jud, r . of the land, and lie were to object to them mina th.. . g rou e d that the motives care bad, he would °illy -Ask hies to open the book. aud say. how was tie law s Sir hies s:cts BURLIZTT.--M tettlinly anxious, before I ventured to deliver my seutimeatts. to lime heard the sentiments * h tvii *1 cons:_ der as 'attires- inferuied On . the sub ject. than which, one more impertent or tonehicg the vital intonate ot' the country, I catmint well imagine. As e charge against- ithilistere. I .had hoped to Ir. i.fussed tt auswered by something More rearonithle end ratio. factory then any tidos( I tette hitherto heard ade %Rimed in their farmer. Itseatt.tions have 'been thrown nom, the Hon. GelithlT'llit who !his brought tot:steel the preseat el:argee, whieh, if true, uouthl be diegracelial to him ; but l< maintaiit ho has: brought them foi •.1 in • cost Pailksinentary manner ; for this purpose I have • takee Jett tit the precedents from the earliest perior4 to the present timer. and maseithatandiug the cornet. orb" of his proceeding, he lien Vern scouted by others; aud no soulier is the charge niede. than it is retorted on him as if the charge we.. not to I.e lieteued to. Comma: fume has been agreed oil as • good grotind for accusation ; if so. that I con end is the present inatenetr, and who is the 11/111 iu this House who will get up in his place, and bay ou his honour he dues uothatlfere there is good groutm for inquiry ? If this then be the rose, to oppose is but exciting disgust mud op probrium. teed Romparte could not desire suit better ally in this liouse.—llleare) 1 %lit it is the only and true mode to produce innovetioa;atel I de fy any cry of a Hear.' from x letter• . quarter it mete come. lam free Woven I ant not surprised to finri Miui s ters !shrinking from charges when brosigl.t forward in a tangible shape. especially when con tattled with that bug-hear, Parliamentary Reform_ A Noble Lord has stated his belief that seats its this House have been subjects of purchase ; is not this common fame ? Another liot,. Member has offered to rove the fact at your her ; is not Ibis bringing tlie charge into a tangible shape? When it iv said that the essences cf such griesencee are lei be considered as caluntudiutor; of alie•State ; .Vona' own Committees. your Cotranissieuers appointed to hiquire into public abuse*. a re the C alum i .l a t ora by their jitahlic Reports. %I' hat I assert 1 Lind in your Stutu to Book; and all l ask is, to put its pro- - visions into practice. Happy tar the country if ad thot asked be granted as a favour by the House; if you refuse it. guilty will he those who es use the refusal. There ere sons who aretua against the motion, as not knowing where inquiry will go to ; I bey iyott agree to it, you save your character; if you deny it. yon mime save tile held. With respect to the bill now before the House, I consider it as a bill to ' prevent honest men from coming into-Perliament, sad enabling Ministers to act as they please ; and those Gentlemen who disdain the imputation of swelling their pockets, whi:e the public remain poor. will nu doubt reject it. Upon the wholes I find it imposilible to refuse my assent to a inotiou, which, if not thoroughly understoad, must at least he believed I. be well founded by all who heard it. Mr. Dames GIDDY said, that property aud power should always be united—he hod always con- . sickatel it one of the greet merits of tie Constitu tion, that all interests were represented .n that Heuer.. Ile wished to see the landed and to that he would allow the pr. dominance, he wished to see the rimmed interest, he wished to see the lawyers, idle army, mid the navy represented; he was not afraid to say, that he bud no objection to the introduction of certain members of thr East India Company into the house. /4 heel.) Alter ell that was said against the present system, the country was flourishime under it, and they should be cantiousof adopting nay speculations which might endsoger that prosperity. Uader the present spleen. Filua protection was extended to all ; the law .wesi the same for all this lie considered to be practical liberty. and he wile satisfied with it. Fvr such reasons, lie would give his sincere vote against the motion of the Hon. Geetlenuan. If any case of corruption w as made out. no man would be more forward than he would be to resist and crush it; hut he would always draw a distiuction between corruption sad that species of influence which did stud ought to exist. Mr. Masse said, that lie wec desirous to trou ble the House with a few words. He did not hear the nature of the charge which was brought forward by the Hoe. Gent. aud he thought that the joontais•weeld make it sire lige appearator e tautest the Hon. Goat, would favour the House with some paper which might be lose: tea to esphiiii its nature. In the case of Shepherud, the Ifree,e resolved specifically that he lied proved hiineult corrupt in un littempt to influence by bribery, and it wee upon the specific statement of that charge that it agreed to entertain' it. Ile thought that the H o u se wa s .n.u w , as well as then, entitled to have upon ire journ.ule • the grounds of deliberation; it the lion. Gentleusau would agree to furnish them. , it would contribute much to the regularity of prc ceeding and to the elucidation of the question : if be related to de au,. he (Mr. T.tarould feel himself ins difficult situntio., and so he was persuaded wieild many in that House. He thought that part of the charge should be entertained; that reit he *Hull"' to which accused a Nlinister of having pre vented a Member from doing his duty, stud of in fluencing him to relinquish his seat rather than obey the dictate, of his conscience • that part of the charge, he ass of opinion, should be entertained ; it was one of the gravest that coati peasifily be brought against a Minister` of the country ; it bad nothing whatever to do with Par liamentary Reforin—it was an evil against which no Reform ceillil guard, and therefore was utterly unconnected with the question. The charge levies' Lord Castlereaelt was distinct. aud of a nature that called loudly for investigation ; hut that against Mr. Pererval. and Mr. Henry Wellehe was sir vague, that he did sea Omar the Hoe would for a titomeat he inches:l te eu!cr wee, tire ,~ - .