The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1809-05-06 00:00:00

. . • • . . .thata precatlent in a case in exact. couformity with theereseet one which atands reeOrderE in yourJerir nal: be read, I mean the carrot Sainoteland limns Shenherd, which, will be tiiniel entered on the 13th February, nun, and ,Of March follow- Tltis precedent was neconlingly read by the Clerk, brit very inaudibly to the Gallery. All we could hear was, that tome persons, Samuel and _Francis Shepherd, Members for the llorriugh of rlsteerport, in ,e Isle of Wight, hating been charg ed with nutorions briberv, by giving grunt suers of money and suppressing evidence in order to procure the return of a Member for Wootenbastret; the . Cliar:ze was allowed to I.e proved by eviden the bar of the House, and hieing found guilt were Petit di the Tower of London. This being read, the same Hon. Gent. be call the Intention of the House to the question of form, as it had been amen-Man that case, and which upon the same footing ought to be observed in this. It appeared, that no sooner was the charge• of cor ruption brought forward reenlist these individuals, than a day was appointed for hearing evidence at the Bar, in order to substantiate it ; afterwards a day am; aepointeri to bear the parties in defence by themselves or by their Counsel at the Bar, nod being found guilty, pittlishment immediately hal lowed. Upon these grounds I feel it any duty to _proceed, as that precedent directs, and having formerly given notice, that I should upon their day bring forward a charge a t rain.t some individuals of His Majesty's present Administration, I according ly now sele'et the Right Hon. Speockr Perceval, as having through the means othe Rt. lion. Henry j Wellesley been guilty of corrupt practices, in pro curing the return of Members to this House ; as ' also that Lord Viscount Caatlereagh has heel' guilty of annilar corrupt practices, and I do there fore, Mr. Speaker, move. s That the charge against the Right [lonoorablo Spencer Perceval and Lord Viscount Cestlereao be heard at the Bar of this House on Tuesday next. Sir F. EVOOLTT seconded the motion. Mr. Seencca Ps newer.. 01 know not what may have been the practice of this House in the year 1700. wherein toe precedent which his been read, is to be found ; but ever sure I have had the honour of re seat in this House, lawyer till now heard of a change befog made, without any idea being gistru of wmt was its nature. Since the charge now brought aguinat rue is of such a general nature, I can do loathing Ind make any bow, and leave it to the linos., to discuss." Here Mr. Perceval with drew, and wan soon nfterwards followed by his col league Lord Castlereagh. Sir Jona Amtrantas.a—" In justice to those individuals who have now withdrarn ; I put it to the Hower whether on a Charge so made against Members of Ills Majesty's Administration; or emu agaiust rely individuals in the lowest sittnition, what. ever, we are tumid by certain principles, which must upon all twearichis reviles , Attu conduct, and we ought to coliairier those principles before we re mark SO eatraordiriar- •ii y reaolution as that now made. (hear hear !) fur whelps the charge we are to assume, Isecautie the Hon. Gentleman. hiaite- • funned the Howse of a charge of corrupt:Mu ea** iqq, his runid, that Mr. Spencer Peres-sal, mid k.otsla Vgaeouot Castlereagh liars been guilty of mule throg or 'mother r NVllat iiiforination has lie given us, that can entitle us to call upon these feriae:lahs to answer this charge ; or how can they instruct their enittisol to support them at .lie Bar hare always understood that Parliament regulated itself by the practice ob.erverl in Courts of Law, in regard to judicial iuqui ries, and web it ever heard of before, that in attY place that is called a Court of Justice, a matt wars put aeon his trial, and called' upon to make les defence against a charge the nature of which he did not know > Does the Honourable Geutlernon choose to found this charge merely upon vague reports and inforination ? Ulna such ii question Fla this, 1 do not 'peak as from this tide of the House, or f Met bide. alien I say, diet I take this to be a part of a gent:nil system, that seems to be adopted by some individuals of scat tering .abroad loose and iudeemite accusations, although they themeelvta be couvineed they have riot the smallest inisaidatimi. They pretend that there sppeareal to be something or other in these reports when they find it turns out that there is nothing. This, however, is not sufficient to jus tify iii in encouraging such a charg e us the pre sent one, and I think the Him. entletnria who Las brought it forward has totally mistaken hie own precedent. As far as my recollee:ou of it goes, 'I believe it will be found that there was a lung and tedious eiaminatiou, and investigation of its merits before the Committee of privileges,-.e (Here Mr. Ms... Mocks said the [boor:ruble Iluroiret had Letter look at the Journals.) *. The Honour able Gentleman says I had better look at the Journals, but it requires more bate than what I can at present bestow ; but I urn sure, if they aru examined, it will be found fiat there was not only a Jore: examination, but long iliseusaiona recording at. lam convinced, upon the whole, that the pre cedent alluded to does not bear him out, in nettiag any person open his trial upon this sort of 'uremia tion. a.. Sir FRASCI3 BURDETT Stateftt as his opinion, that the Ifotiouriablo Mover was 'perfectly justified in this course of preilitiltr;e, by the precedent be fore him, and it was *oh that ground he set-aided the motion. It was astflirient that Members in that House heard that* charge was offered to be proved • sit the Bar, to josiify them in hearing it, in order that they might afterwards judge whether it was necessary to isnydefetiee against it; for lithe charge was groundless. it would amount to ajustificatioa. He was surprised to hear Huy one pretending to be the friend of the accused, speak against the pre priety of hearing the proof now offered to be ad. (hided. Mr. Bfflol/1.1.11—" Tiisteria of expecting that the • -friends of the accused would have expressed sur prise at this motion, I should rather have thought it would have been their duty, if they really wish to act as their friends, to have got up and seconded the motion now made. For my part,l conld not have conceived it possible that such a motion as this would hare been resisted. The tone and feel lop of the !louse, and of the Ministers in particu• moigt be strangely . forted if they con sit iu • • Weir places and hear wools -accoailtiona, witholit ,• *. going into evidence. We have heard it said, that •••., • • --.•••..- • • • Ministers by their silence neither deny nnr admit the truth of an accusation ; but I nuist'itier that silence in every such case amounts to all'itlitallsoieu be guilt, and that 110 man, who can submit to be silent upon such a ehartgeus this, is capable of be- . ing responsible Alinister. The consideration and diameter that -a Minister ought to bear in' the country, ought to ke.m pace aids the greatness Of the duty he has to 1K slums. If he go further, and instead of being disposed •to listen to proof of u charge, endeavour by his intliiimer, to stifle inquiries, such a •reprehensible con duct renders him totally unfit for a hi A li mid re sponitible situation. Tao of His Nlajesty's Ciemito 'Ministers are by name accused in the most direct terms of procuring the Return of Members to Par liament by the most corrupt means ; and although the flon. Gentleman - who makes the accusiition. is not unuch in the habit of addressing the noose ; yet I trust there are Members in it will not sutler such a charge to be scouted' for want of a compliance with any other form, that some of those Monk of the 'accused suppose ne-• Cersury. flad it not hecu already bet:united by the Honourable Baronet. !should have gladly ilone so." Mr. 11. BATHURST--" I moat say. that its my opinion this: is a quetailin that goes to affect every public man of nay consideration in this country, as weU as the indivailuals now particularly accesed. If it b e sufficient for any individual in this House to come .forward and say, that he hr' heard of such 1 and such reports, and therefore talk upon you to i institute on illquiry, then: will he an cud at vague sad gromidless accusations being made. 'Ellis I seems to spring front the pro s seation that was I stated last night, as to its being inconsistent with the empitito lion. that any man holtliiiv a 11111111 e Sit mime should not sit in the House of Clllllll 1111 l To make such a prop eaaitiou was only laying the fourotatiou for erroneous opinions tutu alortrines, and adding fuel to that spirit which is already too prevalent throughout the country. as to the ex istence of corruption. Such n 'imposition can be stated for no other purpose than fiat quali fying the public taste. I can bee no good likely to arise front the Hum iientlemitio comitig forward with such a statement. except be be ',reputed to give it in a tangible shale, by divulging the grounds of suspicion be has to support it. I .ap prehend that in common sense and feeling we must presume that the precedent lie has alluded to was out enconreged till suclatime es a previous expla natatni had taken place. At therefore upou the same grounds appears naursaaL that a day should have been first named far hearing this charge before we rail determine whether or test proof should be ad rilueed. T. do otherwise would be contrary to justice, for 'moon the preacitt 04:004011 the Right Hpitouruble aentletsum and the Noole Viscount , accused, could do nothing MUM than retire in the way they have done, and therefore they cannot now be heard in defence. It is iiideed a public cause, and the House are bound to defend acen.ed, monist -such a pro. needing as eyed only tend to prektdiee public men Amato what. been stated by the lionenrable• creutleioaii spoke last. allhougli 1 have not the lisneur Qtkisowiug hint. yet I catmint conceive 'where he could have imbibed those ideas he has stated, unless it may have been at some of those public meetings he. may frequent." Mr. lituou ten, iis explanation, said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman load no right to state of Iwo,, what he never represented. He could leisure him, cud the House, that lie never attended atiy, l public meeting's. Caarwatunr —a' I slionhl think it were. necessary, before the •Huiese can encourage any charge ogamst its Washers, that a reenter ureter elmuld have beets given to the individuate accuteii. I v for one, cannot consent to this motions before I hear the grouuda upon which it is founded!' Mr. Marwoces--.. At the time I gave notice of this motion. I distinctly stated the imbalance of it us order that 111iiiisters might bat aware that it re listed to thrni. I thought I 'tastiest coneultiag the dignity of the House, when I rested my proceeding upon the forra of the precedent that has beeirread. If in that form of proceeding I 'have appears& to act uocaudially, I sin extrema-1y ready to apologise to the House, that it has beeit owing to my inexpe rience in Parliettientary . prote.dings, usual use uet having had the honour of addressing you before. thought 1 had paid As much attention to rune and regulinty of proceed tag :is aas putssible for me to be stow, %%hen 1 consulted malty alto have belonged to this (louse for it eineaderitlile length of time, a n d I have been guided by their opinion, and the doe triue i formerly heard upon a late occa • l that it was highly injurious to character to net forth any charge against an individual, without a proof of what . is s• stated. It was , therefore, out of tet. dernms for the character and reputation of the Ht. lion. Gent. and the Noble 'Vie:milk that 1 wished the House to hear only that which should be proved." The Secstica—'' Perhaps it may not be im proper in use to state. what occurs to one upon this occasion as to the form of proceeding m such eases; and indeed I may almost say, it lets become imperative upon use so to do. If it be thought necessary, that the. Member who bringe forward this charge should he heard iu explanatioa of that charge, this is not the proper time for doing it. because the individuals mcaiast whom the charge is made have withdrawn, for against no ahsent Member call a charge he stated. With respect to the notice he gave. he will allow me to state, that as it applied to Ministers gene rally, it conic' not amount to any personal notice to any individual. I conceive it the right and duty of this House. at any time to receive charges of Members. misconduct, whether against its own Members. or itgainst persons in public.situations, not Members of this House, and these charges may be brought for nerd in a mere or leas solemn form, according to cireumetances. The most solemn form is, that by impeachment formally de livered hi, aild.unother mode is by an OM charge made by a Member in hit place, upon which the House is compeemt to judge for itself, of the pro per coarse of, procedure. As to the precedent that has been alluded to, I nerd not state to the . House, that the. Journals in no case *peek snore than appears from whet has been read. They are idteut*d to giee a detail of Speeches made upon either side of a rjoestion : but what is there stated, implies that information of a charge has been ' -- • • brought before them, and fully diecusse,i. In th present instance, this snotion having been made, the Honer must necessarily dispose without v further fx mutton or the speci fi c charge alleged . ; but this does sot preclude them proceeding to hear the partiLul aN upon another Orlit*loll, AMA act upon them as may appear proper." Mr. MAUDOCKS said he should bow, with defer ' eller, to what had bhen stated from the chair. and not attack individuals in their absence, dud should await the pleasure of the House upon ,his present inotioo. Mr. Sveretury CANNING--.-" I situ desipues not to attrihote other inotism to the lion. Member who made this motion, than those whicn he self assigns for his error in point of form, anl l there fore appr.-iit nil there can be hut one opinion iii this (louse, a, to ths propriety of getting rid of it as iiieirkly as possible. Perhaps the lion. Gentleman „Ana . ). i. • disposed to withdraw his tu ption ; but if so, I seal: be inclined to oppose that proposal, and ra ther leave it to the house to pronounce u precise negative ; for exactly•in the saline proportion as Ito has been erroneous in point of turn), it appearft. to use necessary that the House should comet the misstatement, by an entry un our..journals, and to prevent ally other member fallits4 into the saute error. Mr. \Visitats.* D...e" I cannot conceive that andi a result us that which the Right Houour able Secretary predict., would follow. It doe. • not appear that any Member night notbe tuialecl liu the same way as my Ilosiouralde Friend has I been, whatever be the entry made in the Jourliala I upon this occasion. There is sin record at all as to the information given as to the charge against Shepherd, the precedent alluded to. All that we know is, that Ise profeseed his innocence, as any one might do, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have done if he had thought proper. Va. times examples bare 114 . 1:11affarded to us, even in the last Parliament, or char g e., heing made agaiiist I I dividnala without any• previous notice. A charge of this general nature is no ways ineonsiatent nor improper, as the Honourable Mover has stated that his is ready to tell you the par titulars upon a hich lie means to found it. We have already been told of the danger of telling stories of vermin witholat proof ; and is this not the proper inside of avoiding that danger? This is surely the most tangible *nape in wind. such a charge could be suggested, altheuo lie had never heard of any apologies bring made for erroneous statements, as a Right Iloniesnable Gentleman bad Wen pleased to state was naval in such cases. 1 should be glad to know what tangible charge has . yer filled, and who has beets the means of excit ing the public mind ? Has not the investigation that has taken place, and the accuactiots that has been rtleile against Minister., proved the fart of ciorootion eaisting ? What can tend more to excite the public mind, than that Minis ters shield attempt by any imams to stifle so in quiry into allegetiona agairiat littiestera ma a charge of corruption? I am not ashamed, Sir, to own that I have, duringthe course of my ,political life.. attended public meeting.; and 1 inn hot sorry for what I ever said aspens those occasions, nor shell I retract WIC word if' what hats been tiirreetly reort ed—for beyond that 1 ant not revonaible. I did not attend a late Meeting; at which the Hen hourable klerouct behold tie presided, oat be vas's.. I del not thiuit it proper, our that nay thing Viet ham emanated from 'it by way saf Iteseht tions, nor is reprehensible, hat Itecaceer I thoaglit that advantage might be tam of them by those who wished' to incite and inflame the public mind against persotis of the general principles of those who attended such meetings, and I was ufraid that by my attendance there. I might have done more fearau thim good to the cause which I espouse.— It has Iseen maintained that the spirit of Parliamen tary Reform is merely an attack upon Parliament, in ordar to nverthrow public meal, and to go the length of eNeltoling them from Parlinrseut. Now, - Sir„ Ido nut go the le n gth of saying, that public mesa iinght to be excluded, I tneasa by public men the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the First Lords of the Treasury. the Secretary of State, and the great efficient officers of this Crown. By this Ido not go the length of the Ast Of 1700, !int I think there are many of the Hots. Gruthemeo befurr. me, who on account of their pieces and pensiono ought to be excluded from seats in this House ; and if I am afterwards called upon to explain my reasons for sis thinking, I shall lve ready. The Chancellor of the F:xchequel last night allinleil to the Meetiug At the Crown and Anchor, us the source from which we formed our rapitiinci of the public mini, and I should lie glad, were he here, that I might tell him it is not from that meeting alone we form our judgment of it ; but that the same opinion exists throughout the conntry.—That opinion is, that the punishment of those guilty of corruption is necessary. So long its we know that corruption exists in the state, cau we stop and say that we have done enough ? No, Sir, if you Irish to root out corruption, yon must never critic your endleavonrs to detect it, so long us hntwarsuature is human nature. IVe know front history, that there were times in which nasty per sons were paid for voteig with administration, and were the way practice Meant now, woithl it be said that we ought not to notice it ? The Chancellor of the Exchequer has accused ass Hon. Nlember for not bringing forward corruptions sooner, 141/ he said he hail known of their existence; but, is there 'set a great difference between a person knowing a fact by report, and knowing it emifidentially ? It can only be brought forward when rue lots learnt with certainty all that is necessary to prove the fact. I would not, therefore, wish the Hon. Member to withdraw his motion far ev.e, although it hr negatived without a division. It is essential for the preservation off' our privileges, that we should maintain our right of making suds charges in the manner this lead been made.— If lie withdrew it, it might be attributed to dif fidence, even although be offers to prove his charg e by witnesses at your liar, upon Tile's! next. —lf he hail taken a different mode of prneedisre, lie might have made his explanation of it this night, but that cannot now fir dune, a, th.• parties have with drawn. As it is, Isnuever, I say that nothing im proper has been props-roil ; but if lie fail in this shape, 1 hope he will bring it soon forward in a more tangible one.-1 confess I arn sorry for the inch% i • duel mean whom such charge. fall, if he eoutlints biassed' othervieys pioptily ; but aurcly he iv out I. . - ... , . . . . .• . , ' • fit to remain a Member of Admioistration; avid )et it it onittlerlul that we hint one,* ho i , ki% wars.. redly en v 'timed himself, reinsiiiiiii g in the Ga.. vernmem of the Co'miry !!!—Tlie preavitt motion is no more connected with dry question of Pseita euentary Retried', than that of Ikea iii ;4 lii, which was alleged by soiue to be so." The I lonour,d,li t Gentknolls then concluded sith stsaii% that be would vote for the present motiou. , Mr. Yuan;;.—•• I Ida is the most extraordinary, proceeding that ever took place in a free cumin- v. and I assert that this is the freest .couotiy iii the world, and the ',reams are the best tours of our his tory. It is astonishing that iii such tinter 4* these the lion. Nlcitilier, wi.o must know the laws aid institutions of his s•otintry,•should by such a ino_ ti- ii have violated the most orilitinry pro.. i v ies of justice. I should uposi soda ati common ray that the most proper mode island be fur the House to mark its rearehetiouil of such n procreating., by i nsertittg an ameted anent to the motiou emceed upoii the Jourinils, that "a charge had been stated with. out being explained, and concluded by its hovi.l; been negatived. Mr. GOODGE.—" I bare . heard it Rind, that there have beeo attempts to throw aspersious Mein those who attended mad's: meeting's lately ; and I most observe, that if the sot•reliee that have pp.. Oared in the • public prints have proceeded from those to a hom they have beet, attlitosted, I think they have done mute mischief in dole;., away the umensinity of the country than oily of those Gen drawn in tine House can possibly by their eater tune; here recover, if they were to eat for a kill,. died years. I and disposed to lead my utmost as- sistance to do away Amato wherever they'exist ; but why, in (,od's name, 'Mould we be em ployed an uo other object their in fishing oat abuses, which were never thought to be Moises till theac pure slays in wined' we now live ? Public meetings of that nature can do no good, but in finite uticliiel. 'As to voting *hooks to a cerhmi Honourable Member for his patriotism, for Ins exertious in discovering corruption, I confess I should as moo think of vetting thooks to Mrs•Clai kir for her virtue. /A Loki.) It is not party, but faction, that I disapprove of, us these last would wish to represent themselves as the center and es sence of political purity. Whether the motives of theollonourablwllarocet opposite (Sir F. Burdett) be good or bed, he may by his enthusiasm do mot thief ; and I must 'say, that I dissent Irian every principle 1 have bevel him utter tie this Home." Mr. LarriseTne.' What loot fallen from the lion. Guit, who has just sat down, is 'widow sup ported by direct nor presumptive proof. If this House were reformed, I believe that public inert ings would not be so frequent as they have been, and are likely to be. 'lt ia the only check that ex ists upon the misconduct of this • House. I will support the motion, as this charge d.oes not appear to me to be. so indefinite ashes been alloyed; hut, if it may be said to he indefinite to-day, it will surely be detioite Ull Tuesday, when the evidence is heard at the bar, by which the House eau form it s opiiiioti ant I judgment." . Mr. thump said, that he rose principally for the purpose of noticing some collateral topics which had been iatroduced iii the course of the die . mission, MIA wilic;i referreibto certain !midi., meet ingslately held. He was iurprisevl that they should he made subjects of reprobation in that House ; that the Members who attended them should tie called to account for their attendance ; they 'arm the aucieut established right. of the English people, and the exercise of them, being con formable' to thee constitution, ought not to be reprehended. lie was always of opinion 4 that to press upon the people, in meetings legally, ussenibled, the necessity of a moderate practical re form, was likely to •be attended with the very bast consequences; and he did nut thick that lie Was Ilballdfliling, in any degree, the duty he owed that House, in furthernig objects so interwoven with the telvantage of the country. IF a proper, humble, and moderate petition was laid before them. they weir hound to intend to it. it .eau to this House that the people looked, al the legal source by which their grievances were to be redressed.— Ile had acted as steward at a dinner given at the Crowu anti Atithor Tavern, the object of widen ass t,/ recomatietul the different (vulture to convene tegular meeting's, for the purpose of petitioniog in favour of Parliamentary Reform. Such was the object of the meeting, at which he was present ; and it was without feeling any liumiluitioti, but on the contrary, a sentiment of pride, that lie acknow ledged himself •of those, alto were present. Hav ing said se much in defence of mcetnige, the right to which Was established and hauled down by our ancesturs..he would conclude with observing, that he never would feel himself ashamed, tior condemn himself in the slightest degree for having been one Of closet who was present at the exercise of such is privilege. Mr. Sruaeaa Bonant said, that although the motion went to bring a charge against the Right Hon. Spencer I'ereeval and others, lie could trot title, out what the charge was, lie woudered that the Hon. Centletuait did wit obsei re the usual courtesy, and signify his intention previously. and - the specific charge he inn:tided to submit. fie sits surprised, that the lion. Gentleman should say enough to make thisobject of hisieliarges uithdraw, and 'should then in his Oriente proceed to state the charge,; it was at preceedi in his opinion, cot:- triiry to justice. He was ' ksurprise.] li ss s urprise.] to see t , that the on. Gentleman op ite, who was so wed versed in the business of a public accuser, slioubl stand up in defence of such 4 aiceeding; hr was vermin th.tt an Ulan won - ink seriously under the circurruitences of suing the pe timi. With respect to Park are Retrrir. he would only say, that he was gl as not one of those, who, at meetings O arse r tile 01- pose of recommendi n g such a e, 4traigAil the vontlitet of persons who sat get iii st lac pr e oceditig. which WAS Stipp° taViEsh ll"' J necessity or it /4; would rather he the 4 jowl el' the accusation itself. The judisial optliitiii %f.,* had beet proimnimerf, was motivated, mill OA by persons who hail um heerd is tittle of the evidence. Whu had ever ht ard of a verdict of acquittal ar raigned before ? To hien it was a eirratinstinice ta ttier new, that the. men who professed to he the ad vocates of the liberties of the MU lit I. , should one &mike to promote. that liberty, by rtegrailiiig the character or th• Canitionis . House ..i Parliament. ~