The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1810-04-14 00:00:00

it. 4nd sooner theft lie should go . unpaid, he en ... „ r ,,, ; ,A the tenant to resist the tithes. Me could ti -. 0 see any injury that arose from leasing the titt l e s ; i e his opinion, it had a different effect, as it brought the persons paying nod receiving on a snore scimitar st bit- ;1 prevented all difference. The ma ten of the Hnu. Gent. went ouly to tish out l i ttl e party discords, which ought to be always kept in oblivien. Ile iii.",t a,oin repeat, that it was•the canting of the leases to the highest bidder that caused the discord. Sir JOHN NIMPOIt.T—" it is not so." Mr. W. Pout. in coniiimetion—lt iney not be the ruse in Wen curd, hut this he was confident of. that it nee the case over ' , so-thirds of the islaa 1. it was It system lie deprectihel, and he trust. when Gentlemeir spoke of the hardships the rP le laboured under, that they would withdraw oppres-:on, before they called upon that ,use to J. an art which would not only increase it, hut ceise a change of system which had been snort 11[11016411y acted In the parish ..hire he 'lad a house, the in.•umlneit let to ;„, t i•• all I i t tithes psi I by tenants, from ease to s-year ; nut if the Hon. Gait heinsu's seheine wits adopted, it would destroy one•sh t d of lea income. As for the titre of taxing the Citholi.a by a differret ninde, to au equisl ex tent to shat diet now mid in tithe-6,1 it was extrava go,,. If the Hou. Gent. meant th it the Catholic,' wr Ot 10 ply taxes at all, l e t hi m nay to ; b„ t it ~r ei t eal out to !Repose to lay a Inc upon them, for r!,..y knew not what. Tne scheme w is, in his at , , nn inicticsble. The great grievance of all i „ I ores, the great rent extorted by Ilse La ur a.; cud, next to that, the vexations which ar ose fruit the non-resident Clergy grew ing proc tor•li pr. The grievances arising from the former ceute, were oft, a imputed to the collection of the titles, which, in point of fact, had nothing to do with cresting them. As for the other snerre - of burden, he misted that the Bill they had pawed two years ago, to enforce the residenee of the Clergy, would, in a great. measure, remedy it. He ant Sorr, !le could not tigree with the Hon. Geatleinsn's motion, for eoesg into a Committee ; but noleoi something atiecitie was pointed wit fur them to Wit I.lto VOllSlderatioll, he conetiveet that such *step woulflllie altogether fruitless. It would soh tend to ev.ite expectations in the people of Ire land, on a vague ocheturosithout the power of grit thein in reality. If, instead of u Committee. the Hon. Gent. had promn.eis to hew; in a Bill ; then he would have met him fairly. and discussed the twitter, but Inc would not go tofisf fora remedy.. 'thereby deluding the people with false hopes. The Government were as noxious fie any individual could he, to devise some rettellv for the evil they aekneekelgod to exst. It hail to u. ercupied their siteniem, and lie trusted that. during the recess, 'woe general measure of felt f might be tlevi•ed, which wield ameliorate the coaditiou of the Irish poor. At soy nee, by the next Session of Parl.l - hr believed, from their inquiries, they would be she to sue, eithi r here is a a,tisfsctory plan, or we have failed Vitrify in being übie to dincoser a remedy. It was unnecessary to enter into the Honourable Gtedleniao's calculatneis moo th.• netuirers of thus or that class of the noon. !atm. Thi• was not to the pimp. ee, as nil clay', our ,1 iii the desire to remedy what might well be rape i a eryiug evil. As for the government, lie iumea.ed it wit , Cieir peculiar province to look to ever!. means '0 effect t remedy, whether the her.i•ia ate arose frem a gimerel feeling, or from ere iiiitice Muds of ti cons:dereble But time ohkci tee !lon Gentleman proposed to carry is Cie mnitice was, to abolish tulles, and, be another in to., n tritely. a tax, give the ameunt of their net produce in the clergy. This would create a flame °respect:mon in Ireland. met would Ite productive of no good. Li faer, the !Inn. Gen tleman', theory would lot hold for five minutes. There had heel' three other plans proposed, but they were all liable to es strong objections as the present, sod neither corn rents, or the leasing of film s or the selling of titles, would be found to siswer the purpose for a hieh they were proffered. Under these circumstunces he must oppose the !lotion for a Committee. S.r .1. NEWPsiRT C4lWetiltiOna of remedy for th,ne evils heel not been held out et the time of Ce . o inn, that measure would not have been so reily necomplished ; Coverument having held out thr.e exi ertations to time people of that country, were beind to take every measure. and consult every means of effecteig what was held out. Bet PIM, instead air that, it was the name ex.' Prefetioite over again. and the same offer vu toile, as was made two year* ego, of doing wortoin g or another after the recess. But it was not only the expectations held out to the people of Ireland at th e time of the Union, he con tended that they had additional claims to a modifi esenn of the tithes. It was not only the word of t : I: great Statesm en who stood at the h ea d of th e enetu ment at that time, but the effect of a ruo• tu m %Well followed thereon. end which had the !fee of throwing off the burden of tithes. to wo od, tor the Charge, from the rich, who hail capital 1"Iffloyel in agricultural purmits, to the poor who ";.a.l melting hut their own personal labour. It was 111 4 I, that um one of the inducements to the Union the carried into effect. It • ht • leed he id fist is , bondmight, said. was give* —he dial not say there wan, tot es m„ 4t. were very strung inslueements were held Were the Government then, to keep the lefenise to the ear, 6111 , 1111/1 tk it to *he hope. Wes it bt the same in this es with the Cotholi-s. With `bola he hail offered to prove, and now offered to er t y . against the Noble Lord, iso much concerned iNtr % • L L 94 tnis measure, that • positive e e vert *sit entered into ? Of this, t h at 'ga Nnblel.o g rd the.„ ,„,i .Y get es he had done of other to contending that 15... Title his prnini.e a ` le Pert' , would hr a breeds of promise to ; ilist whil e be offered eme ifiioe in one (I he had offered the re the PrOtivinslt% in 'mother. Wes the "lily to be pf4l,llocteve of satisfnetinn to o,.: l " . twlions of individual., by which even the s ., ;;e" Hokin.goiis4 i their 11111.1111, %IN% degraded ; and " • Id out to t hem Tt9l%l:hea‘tiiil7l7.ijed ui the t „ " onoura • e ; —not for Hummers of secirens, but '.'miry into the mars of pp.,,,,img • rs Pick•vom Igril ma every side. c dewed. it would be tufting with the nesee - of the Empire. It was confessed that Ireland was the weak potet, why not then adopt measures to make it our strength ? Inquire into its grievances and redress them. De nut postpone it from time to there, till hope is s;ck of the delay. If Gentle men apposite called themselves the followers of the great Statesman. who carried the measure of the union; it behoved thon to keep inviolate his pro mises. These promises were not illusory in the mind of that illustrious Iberian, and it was the duty of his pretended disciples, to carry them into ef fect. Titer had no right to shield themselves adder his name, unless they were ready to fulfil his word. He would now enter, as shortly as he could, into it-z.,:1 of this business. The Right Mimeo. aide trestlernais opposite (Mr. W. Pole) was, in his opinion, extremely wrong in founding his argument on this, that all the Irish Gentry are most avari cious, raising phi it rents to the utmost limit, and thereby begetting a feeling of reu'utanett ill the tenett, towards the clergy, for exactiog dues they were so ill able to pay, after dis.•harging the gee:out imp mew; of their lie could not see how the house could inter fere in the letting of law's, even et higher rates than they were worth, between landlord* and te nants. But, b-cease they could not remedy this, it was no reason why they should not remedy what Nab within their power. The !tight Hew Gentle man had spoken of the eatitiag of lands iu the county of Waterford; for hinieelf, he could say, that lie had never canted an acre in the coarse of his life, nor had he ever turned out an old tenant. The Right Hon. Gr.ntleman had stated what was done in his p inch; and, as it was but fait to set our parish against another. he would state what W. 14 the ease hi the parish where he resided. The effects of • trial of the system recommended by ha lion. Friend (Mr. Parnell) was to throw upon the rich the burden before altogether borne by the pour. By a general tax on pleasure grounds, ite. they had lightened the tax on arable lends, and the ground where potatoes were cultivated. Then, why might nut this system be extended throughout the country, of which every corner might be made to participate in the benefit? Why might not clergymen be content to receive the MUe sum. in peeve awl comfort, they now obtained through everlasting turmoils and disputes? As the tithe system at present existed, no part of it was favour able to the Protestaut Religion. It would never ex tend it. The letting of the smeller truants to cot e rates vi,:s not calculated to promote the intereets of religion ; indeed it hod quite a contrary effect. As for the Reese Hon. Gent's argoineat coneernieg ;trotters, it was not correct. for they were employed by the resident. as well as the non-resident clergy. lie had coioulteil many clergymen on this subject, aid, emote( others, one most valuable authority. who had been resident io his parish for t years. goal he bad said, that if a clergyman for one year collected the tithes of his perish, lie woulit, from a view of the disasters and distresses it 0 'OW 'med. he an adeecate for commutation eve ifterwerds. By these proctors a treat sum wo: :everted front the pockets , if the , in icitations law suits, See. %inch never came Lito the sands of the Clergy:- ma:.. Tie mode too i. which these proctors often concluded their bargains vibe the tenato•y was very procinctoo of oppression. They would call a meeting at the ale-hease, kept by their brother, their tephese, etimeerelation. awl there feed at the espeoae of time periehion—s. Other meeting. of the same kind frequently -iok pie e before the agreement was concluded. apd at iength it was terminate:!. after dinner, when the ri santry were half-drunk, and unable to attend to their own interests. It was thus that a can? was called in Sligo. and the tithes sold to the WA est bidders; from the conclusion of which malty disturbances ensued. The measure now pro. posed did not affect the Clergy. if they had an equal income. they could not he interested in the mode in which it was raised • and he knew that many of the higher order cond emned and ab horred the exiseing system. For these, and many other reasons, it was, that they called on Govern ment to remedy that vicious system. It was ad mitted by all to be wrong; therefore, they ought to have a remedy. But the Right Hots. Gentleman opposite said, •• No ! Do not inquire. Trust to me, and, by next Session, I will propose a measure of redress." For his pint, he would rather trust to the colleetive wisdom of 65$ Members of Parliament. —lt was also said by the Right Hon. Gentleman. tt do not hold out expectations which may never be realized." This came very ill from those who had held expectations to induce a nation to make the greatest sacrifice a notion could make. They were also told to wait for a year. Would these Gentle men be able to persuade a foreign enemy to wait? Would it not be better to heal and consolidate the empire against all external attacks. Were one great part of it to hive no inducement, but 'proses.a thrown out and never made gowl ? Were they to be told, without inquiry. that remedy was imprac ticable. As for his Hon. Friend Oft Parnell), he did not say what was imputed to him. He mid that the Catholics would pay, in an indirect man ner, the 11110 C rate more cheerfully than they would pay it directly to a Protest .nt Clergyman.— Tuts argument was held good by the example of that reapecialsle body of men, the Quakers, who paid more than they would do, were they compelled to pay direct tithes. The Right Hon. Gelit had also urged the inequality of the collection of tithes. This very inequality was whet was com plained of. In one parish they took tithe on po inters*, which was not done in another. In one part there w is a modal to relieve the tithe of flex, which was uut allowed in other parts. These were grievance. mind :t was hollered strange to hear them now arldoced as reasons fur not complaining. Ile would not enter halo a detail of particular facts ; hie he knew many of the parochial clergy of Ireland, who, bet from the dreiel of offeitiling ,he superior and controuliug powers, isoiald be ready to mote their being entire ly tivouralile to the system of his Hon. Fnesocl.— The I leisse of Co: ttttt ens were twit fully acquainted with all the circnnittencrs attinding this Irish qoestion,"and, therefore. were not able to apply the necessary remedy. But isilniry would give them toll itiformatioo, and then they might come to a just decision. A. for its creating • flame of expect ation. this was the usual and generul objection.— The contrary was the cise.--otr when the peo ple saw that the House was is earnest, prosecuting measures fur their relief, they would be satisfied. They would be satisfied, even thousch the result should he tliot no remedy could he fouitd. If the otter course Wag pursued, uud iiiqu,ry stifled. it would be the source of rooted and bitter dowels teals. Mr. W. Pout, in explanation, said, as ■n Irish man and an acquaintance. he waft vet the Right lion. Baronet right to two points.—lie never meant to throw a slur on the resin.. tattle Gentry of Ireland. It was those to whom they let their loads for their !wet—those low, wirt,lle omen, who emoted the tithes, that the evils he allowed to arise iii that respect, were t 4 be imputed. dtikfor the county of Waterford, he nail nu inteutioit of alluJiing to any individual, but merely to the precise fact hr had stated. Mr. 1.. Fosrea thought it better to endure some evils than attempt to remedy them, unless a di gested plan were laid rinwn to proceed upon. Such a plan he had not sets in any speech he had heard. (el lettg4.)—The Hon. Geotleinsii opposite hail argued ou general principles. His first general principle was the abolition of tithes; his second was, that the Treasuty should pay the lay impro prietors ; his third, that a tax should be shbsti. tatted for the presrot tithes. These were all spe culatiops, in which the hopes of the projector must he disspiminted ; and, thetelore, he ass overlie from giving them ony wine Wu or countenance, by irenili,g them for consider-4Tb,, to a Committee. No doubt tithes were felt rs a 3 inconvenience; so were rent, taxes, ate.; still they most be borne, sod it was folly to contend against theta. Gentlemen in this House. arguing from their knowledge of the practice in England, were apt to have a very erroneous opinion of toe system of tithes in Leland. In that country small tithes were isoknown, and the agistineot of tithes exempted pasture, lands from any payment. A third of the property belonged to lay impropria tors; and in this soy change would hr severely felt, and create much confusion ; for in these the pro perty had fur ceaturito descended from father to eon, and were the foundation of family settle ments. The House he was sure wonlj he cautious in interfi ring with such property, and therefore the legislation now proposed would . he exclusively sp. plied to the other two.thirds. The Hon. Gentle man, then adverted to the Act of the Irish l'silia meat in 1735 G. by which those demanding the tithe of agistment were declrred enemies to their country. This act he condemned severely.** hav ing diverted the arable into pasture land, end there by being inimical to the population and civil:solos of the country. by it the tax passed from the rich grainer, and, fell upon the potatoe garden. It was possible, that those who approved of thus taking one-half from the Clergy, might wish to take the whole; but to him it apveared much better lo re store the part taken away, than, b 7 secret sisessores, to form a substitute for the remainder. He would stand by what was left them. He, as much as say mad, deplored the system of proctorage; but he could see no legislative measure to redit ! •e it. In itself. he was happy to observe it carried the geed. of decay. In Irelind, it appeared. from the report before them, there were I,ISO benefices, on which tiiere were only 740 glebe-bouees, sad SOO of the Clergy were uon-resident. The late Act was, no doubt, very salutary ; but, till the glebo-houses acre completed (which active eitertMos were em ployed is carrying into effete), complete warideurse could not be expected. As this succeeded. the prectorage would consequently decay. Ho was ready to go hand iu hand in any Morsel amend ment that could be proposed, bat would rather wait for the grader"l effect of the system, than go in ter a Committee to enetiorege rash sad unfounded which us* 00 in dleaPristsalsit mod die cont eat. Mr. Mesons agreed perfectly with the lion. Moser of the question. If the statement of the Right Hoe. Gentleman (Mr. W. Pole) was cor rect. it would act as au eternal barrier to the coat mutation of tithes. For he had said the clergy had Dow only one-twentieth, instead of one-tenth, which they ought to have; End that any change mast revert to their original claim. Ose-tenth of the produce was oneeiath of the whole value of the Isnd ; sad he would my, were this to be allow ed for the performance of clerical duties, it were tuuch better, instead of the exactions, to do away with the law itself. He had one other great objec tion to the system of tithes—they fell on the indus trious, and spared the idle. He wished a Commit tee to be appointed ; as, however it might now be urged to the contrary, he was convinced, better mode of tithing. than that now aiming. might be devised. He concloded by warmly pa oegyrising the motion. ascakulated to produce the utmost benefit to Ireland. Mr. M. FlTZGaltal.o had been instructed most earnestly by his constituents, to iinpremi the neces sity of this matter upon the House. Had the pres sure of tithes not been in general very severely felt. he could not have had such instructions from a county, which. from its nature. was as little liable to them as any in the country. He gave his most cordial support to the Hon. Mover, who had stated many aggravated facts, which were sufficient to in duce even the friends of thetithing system to call for inquiry. He therefore hoped the Mime would not withhold it. In their arguments, the Hon. Gentle men opposite had confined themselves to the plan of his Hon. Frievd„ but they ought to hare an swered the numerous oh lions thrown out by him, which were in themselves stifficieut to demand inquiry. There were many plans of redress, but the fact was, there dial exist a great evil, and if a Committee was appointed, and should earn report that no remedy could he discovered, that wasted satisfy and induce the Insli people to submit to their sufferings. But Ministers asking them to put olltill next Session, aid to trust to th-ir inquiry, wa. to ask them to trust to what had already de ceived them year after year. This had been a stale practice in the Ireih Parliiiaent fee 45 years...— It was ever, tt do not agitate the public mind while yin have no digested plan," but this was pois on g the qtte.tion for liver. As for eliciting a II line of expeetminai. he was desirous of seeing it excite". It world he a new fl.m e, and totally (111fi•re.,t from tile Amine of despair, which would he excited, sbn.tld the llotiew of Commons reject inquiry eltn4ether. lialuiry they Palled lir, le emu, tithe, were mint levied iii Ireland as to Finland ; because the same el ass of persons did not pay theta ; because they fell upon the - • poor; breenm these poor had net A* seestt 1. 4 41 remedies ; end, from the terror of seeplying ' roe redre.4 to the Spiritual ,Court., were drives to essicrii.to i•ivi: ..seetencts, on. ! which the Proctor 1•. tied ensue. .81.1 again mei the people. Iu Ireland • the Clinritt F.,:ablishinent was sups.ort•A by the • same ClaS4 people who in this coitus my were the Ulij V C" paris.liial relief, and were placed it. the • poor-hother. lit England the tithes were ilui.l by the rich, who had capital. ntachinttry. and We"' extent of land. In Ireland they were paid hy the poor, without cupital, and whose only Lasciusirry to cultivate e small spot of ground, aye the sinews of themselves and sons: A *abet for one of the most arable counties iq Ragland. (Mr. Coke, of Norfolk) had complained of she tithes being to the amount of ss. en sere. Lot whet would they think. when they wets mid that wheat in Ireland ;slid two guieeeicatirl potatoes 31a. an acre ? : The Hen. Gentleman then etowered the arguments of the lest speaker but one, at to ' the egistmniit in 1736. This, he contended, ass an argument fir, instead of against imentry ; N. it made all the capital farmers withdraw from arable to pasture faresing ; the remedy israposett by this • Ipso. Gentleman was to extend the tithes a g a i n to the posture land. In his opinica this wee no re medy. It would be to double the income of she clergy. without relieving those now bardened• The idea wm preposterens and even had not the matter been settled by the union. the Hoe. Offitieil"a would Ind it extremely dillicult to preyed on Pa . litmesit to double the revenues of the Chage 1. They were already sbeedintle paid; it wN it de cent to call on the poor to pay the Prot. cent Cie gyman, who was not even expected to perfsnu a single clerical ditty. a Imptism e or • burial fur then. To prove this. the Hon. Gentleman reed an ex r •et from is pamphlet, published in 17/17, wl•ich hr iin. pitted to a Leern.ol and Right Hon. Doctor on the other side (Dr. Duigenan. who celled on him ,te name the work.) fie then went into n statement of the original revenues of the cle-ey, whic.h calculated were not more than half sit the *Mir, .r teeth. the remeherler being expende I in the evettee and repsi•• of their slurs-he*, ato. which sere very expensive buildings. Ht perfectly coocerre I is , the opinion, that the clergy should he Jibe slay provided for ; hut could not sequie•ce in the pa postal that their emoluments should arise from si e misery of the people. He wished .thst the Home would act upon entlonal principles, mud ceosidfr that such n mode of draining the country iris com pletely inconsistent with justice. efeendly if the present condition of Ireland was at all no object et attention. Mr. WILLIAM Fl TIGIMALD wished that as in quiry should he sustituteil, of a candid and l.rti. mite nature, hut different from the Hoe. Gestic.. man. who had proposed the mallet% as to the grounds upon which it should be supported. Mr. Ga&ream stated, that it was passible far the (;porch to he too rich for the viiple. It was • ; impossible. in iisteocy et- neeptiety, that the Protestant Church should be allowed wise teeth of the produce of the !sod. He would certainly day I$ down as a first principle. that the Aimed es- • mire no diminution cfetoolument ; sal s as ast cond. , that they shield be secure from say cousequeisee of the •deweciatiou of the *ales of sieelef bet those emoluments should set ones !toss the *bk.. Thtifllffight tiaVelfis:lll Sae Morris tbei#f for • - the eratilicatioa of a silly imbitisio...a as tt) to J which be believed the Pvetestaut Clergy hod ao cigar. • But bow nligbt the mosey . for the drlebaille of these emoluments be *thinner procured? It mosey could be raised few the improvement of lands. tr. might it spot be raised with equal propriety by the same mains for the subsineisett of the Clergy e z ... And bow would the Protestant Clergymen be he- . twitted by the system of raising their allowance by • tax, instead of by tithe ? They would be rated frees • the repetition of the dirty doings in which they bed been engaged with their parishioners. trivia niter fend with, and tarnished their religions overshoes. But it was also considered with abhorrence by the • lower class of people of a differint religion su • Ireland, who bad their share in the distress which it entailed. It should be a animas care of that Hou.e that the Clergymen should not be indebted tea gall. iog and griping collection for their support. that they should be secured frets the wretched tithe, and from the pitiful ambition d living by tithes. Tha Protestant Clergymen appe ared to him to be a mo derate set of men. and, so means, tosettable ; but of the Proctor, who follows his nature when lie grinds, be had I very different opinion. Upon the Catholics of Ireland, the weight arising free the . tithes fell with the greatest Nee, and were, moiler every circumstance. of terrible oppiession. But. even if there appeared no very great chance of the efficacy of an inquiry. in remedying the evils which had been tai loudly complained of, the Hesse ought. at least. to shew its inclination to remove the cause • • , of complaint ; they ought to send the question into a Committee, and, by that MOM.. receive the brat information from the country itself, where those complaints had originated ; it would be grateful to that country, that its concerns should be examined with minuteness by the House. which. if it could relieve, would take sway great public calamity; and, if it could not, the concili a tin g disposition evince 4 • :7 Int would be a circanistance peculiarly easing and satisfactory. Dr. Unitise Aa sail, that the yrievanee of pay ing rent to a landlord, might as well be cempleinel of, as that of iroying He contended, tla .t the true crime of the poverty of the Tower chow s ..f the people of Ireland, was very different from 01.4 had lirmi represented. Tilt people, in fart, were no; by any meusis in such a state of indigence as had been described. Attacks testi been made upon the proctors ; but the i r oet avaricious_ Jam:tors ents!.l never act such a manner, or he Donee ear rverr to suppe.e. It was impossible fur a proctor tu levy one tittle more than had been ordered by Wm employer. And whet were tlivse tither, so much bilk, d of? To his Imes ledge so more Oint five 'drilling- an-erre •as I. tied ; and be begged leave to know whether OM le an imposition was too heavy ; and if it d , . 4 not on the other heal appear almost imagaiti. hen the imamate pro duce ..f th , Lnd wee. ecanettrfert ! But the orimduet of the el, el.* , m ma kleig theme d -Maeda nixie% their p.m...Winners was very sueltal 4 eist and kind ; fur, after the tithes hail been due for same time, they woo e.Plitrelt In t .ke a note at a year's date, for the amount ; tins vim eat, ly a eery great