The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1805-05-11 00:00:00

.~.~.._ "-Throwserprest“w"- • " - -- - etesse-erserez IrelatHd recoritile d . ? Were it nit tha. too much of your Lordships' time would be taken up, those ads could be read, wherein would be see. repeated declamations from thew Parliaments of the goad candua and the loyalty of the Catholic body of Ireland. Bet I ray be told, all this wa• true previous to the period of the last rebellion it Ireland ; that the last rebellion in that Country was a Catholic (Met and that the Catholics still content' tainted eith those noxious principles whence that rebellion sprung. These are assertions that I know not how to contradia by any logical or matheme tical proof. However, my Lords, notwithstanding, I hold a diredly contrary opinion, and which opi nion. I trust • shall show to he well Ineaded. In knottier part of the United Kingdom, any Lords, it is well known that two rebellions existed, the ob jilt of Which evidently was to restore a family to the throne, who were deprived of sovereign power iii these realms, for their attempts to introduce and establish the Romaq Catholic religion. At these periods, my Lords, what was the condua of the Lids Catholics ? was not their demeanour loyal and peaceable; and did they not manifest an attachment to the established Constitution of the country ? In the American war, even when the enemy re..-re triumphant in the Channel, and attempts at invasion every moment expesleJ. was not their melte% so loyal, so patriotic, that they were eeen entrusted with arms to assist in repelling that enemy ? I speak in the hearing of five or six Noblemen, who were' Lords Lieutenant of Ireland, and nearly in that of as many Lords who were in the confidential situation of Chief Secretary in that country. To them I appeal. I desire them to rise and state their opinions, whether, while they resided there, the Catholics of Ireland sheeted the least marks of disaffeCtion ? The late rebellion did not, I contend, my Lords, originate in religious preju dices, it bad its rise in a very different source; as also had the recent conspiracy. In the first rebel. lion, the leaders chose for the appellation of their followers, that of " United Irishmen," which im. plied the union of men of different seas. Among ;bele leaders were many Protestants and Non-Catho lics. Been the leaders of the late insurreetion de. dared to the World, that they were Protestants. lily this, I do not mean to say, my Lords, that it was a Protestart rebellion, but that it did not originate in considerations of religion, nor had it religious obitalts is view. Had that rebel lion succeeded, tbes Catholic religion, as well as the Protestant. in that ccantry, would have been over thrown t its obJea was to overthrow the existing Go vernment as a monarchy, and to effea a reparation between this country and Ireland. I must contend, therefore. my Lords, that the late Rebellion in Le land can, in no sense, be fairly canoe a Catholic Rebellion. The Catholics have repeatedly dis claimed, in the most solemn and public manner, those noxious princie:. • which have so improperly been laid to their char ; more especially that ex ploded dictum of their keeping no faith with here- Ake, and their belief that the Pope has the power of absolving them from all oaths. The erred of there positions would be tantamount to saying, that four millions of oar fellow subjeas are not to be believ ed upon their oaths ; if so, the civil government of Ireland must exist by a very precarious te nure.. This argument of not crediting their oaths, my Lords, is, however, a very unhappy one for those who urge it ; for it happens that all these restrictions depend merely upon the effed of oaths, which, if the Catholics agreed to take, would be done away; that of supremacy, for instance. Why, my Lords, did they believe in the dispensing power of the Pope. to that extent—they need only take these oaths, and that Pontiff, were such his objea, would sooner than others, absolve tLem (rens that, and, by such means, render him feartel in countries where Protestant establishments prevailed. Their Petition, my Lards, contains a solemn disclaim of all those imputations. Vint have no well-founded right to assume, that their priests can or will induce them to violate their so lemn religious obligations. It may be observed, that nu priest has subscribed the Petition ; the rea son of that is, the Petition is one merely for a pa:- , ticipation in civil rights; but that they join the Ca- the! c laity, in solemnly disclaiming these impute ' tions. I have proof, in certificates, from the courts of law, where they came forward, and cheerfully ton!: the prescribed oaths. Another objeaion which, I conceive, my Lords, may he offered, is, that the time is approaching when the Catholics cannot be depended 'upon, because the t'ope had come to Paris, and assisted in the Coronation of Bonaparte. Stich trifling, ridiculous absurdities, are below serious retutation ; they may operate =mg the ignorant and illiterate in both countries; but can a man in either Mouse of Raliament, my Lords, believe that the Pope is now more powerful in Europe than during the dynasty of the Bour bons, or more desirous of subverting the Protestant Government of Great Britain and Ireland, than when the Preteneer was ready to assert his claims ? Certainly nut. The state to which the present Pontiff is reduced, must excite feelings of pity, and regret. instead of those of fear, or appre hension of his power or his influence. I be lieve, ray Lords, the most efficient agents of Bonaparte is Ireland are those who endeavour to sow hatred and animosities between the subjeas of different religion; in that couatry, at a period when general unanimity is so essentially requisite. My Lords, to argue oa the petition about the Dis linters, cannot be quite unnecessary, as it has been read to your Lordshiaasi c alludes particularly to the petition of the • si on which 1 am now addressing your Lordships. If it be right to repeal the Test Aa, it is equally so, whether you grant the prayer of this petition or nut—it it be wrong to repeal the Test Aft, it will he s , ), let you deal with this petition in whatev r way you may. The situation of the Catholics in Ireland and in Eng land is the same. They car be eleaed to civil of fices in a great many instances—tney can be Colo nels of regiments, Captains in the navy, &c. ; but, because they already enjoy these advantages, it would be absurd to say, that, on that account alone, the Dissenters here should have the same. In Ire land, the Catholics have had this privilege—and it is ridiculous to say, that the Dissenters must have it, it you grant the Catholics this further indulg ence, which they require in this petition. I go back, then, to ask, Is it true that the present sys tem has, or is likely to have, any operation to con tinee those dangers? I may rather say, is it not true that it has the dirca contrary tendency ? I • will, for the sake ot argument, admit for Inn.. ment, that the Catholics are disloyal—what, in ouch case, is the conduit this country ought to pur sue ? There are two ways in which to proceed— either that which was adopted and followed in the reign of Queen Anne, or that which was so wisely. in my opinion, pursued in the present reign. If, as in Queen Anne's time, you think this system of the Catholics danw-row,, you must take such measures as will deprive them of all political power; you must, by distianchising them of privileges, as much as possible, diminish their influence—and this, you yet I , y no means whatever so completely accomplish, as by divesting them of the property they now have, and taking care they shall not be able to acquire can a future. In order to do 'all this, you must make them aliens in their own country—you must divest them of their constitutional rights ; and when you have done this, I leave it to your Lordships to form a judgment, whether you will be doing a service or AU injury to the empire at large, by thus reducing s s great a portion of the people of Ireland to a state of vassalage, beggary, and downright despair. My Lords, I should conceive the better system would be, to conciliate their minds, by sub duing their jeep dices, and to gain their affeaions, by ameliorating their present situation. I say this, because I cannot but ask your Lordships, whether you canpossibly conceive that the system of restraint holds out the smallest chance of making them better or more loyal sulljeas ? If this system serves neither to conciliate them, nor to mitigate thegrievancesthey complain of—if it disgust the high, whilst it renders discontented the low ranks of lif e, it is nearly the same as if you were to take from them all govern ment, and divest them of all their constitutional and civil rights. As to votes to send Members to Par liament, it was unquestionably an additiional boon, which put them more on a footing with their Protes tant neighbour., and gave them some few advantages with regard to their landlords, and of course pre vented the lower orders from harbouring those dis contents they had antecedently been subjeft to un fold ; but if you would wish to divest them entirely of these, if you are desirous they should be warmly and zealously attached to that Government under which they live, you should not attempt to hinder the higher orders of their persuasion from enjoying and holding seats in Parliament : those amount to but a very small number of persons, and from their influence in the Legislature, could not by any possibility do the smallest particle of harm— whereas, by the lower orders of the Catholics being convinced that they were represented by the very first charafters ot their own persuasion, it will undoubtedly render them universally sa tisfied and happy ; they will daily and hourly increase in industry as well as in loyalty and at tachment to the government, and the good effects of it cannot fail to be speedily and forcibly felt in every part of the united Empire, but in Ireland most particularly. My Lords, if there be any force in the opinion which I have heard has gone abroad, that you ought not to enter into the merits of this Petition, it must only be from an acknowledgment that we are now arrived at the point on which we are bound to make a stand ; that we must on no account proceed any further, and that no circum stances can ever happen to make us deviate or de part from it. My Lords, whoever maintains this position, will, in my opinion, find himself in the wrong, because, the human understanding is not capable of diving into the recesses of fortuity, and saying, with the smallest chance of certainty, what circumstance, or occurrences may or may not arise, which stay render a change in many parts of our system, which now appear most ex cellent, absolutely necessary. You have already conceded to the Catholics all civil rights, except those ot seats in Parliament—heads of protessi mns—and of the State itself. Is it not time then that if you confide so far in the higher orders, and not in the lower, you should endeavour to conciliate and gain the atfeetions of the latter, by giving distinaon to the former, who have influence over them, who enjoy their confidence, and who will, from the very nature of the case—from every principle of self-interest, as well as of national and general welfare, exert, on all occasions, that influence tnr their own immediate benefit, as well as that of the community ? Is it politic, my Lords, or can it be possible, that any praaical good can ensue from excluding three or four Catholic Peers from this House? your Lordships think, that if they were allowed to come into this House, do you think, I say, my Lords, they vend succeed in per suading any one Lord, Spiritoal or Tempo' al, of the weakness, the injustice, or the vanity of our esta blishment ? or that they could prevail with one Lord, to make the slighte•t alteration in it? My Lords, the question is easily answtred. I am certain, that were they so inclined, which I can never suppose, they could not do it. I am equally well aware, my Lords, how little danger there can ever be from admitting Catholic Mem bers into the popular branch of the Legislature. It even half the number of representatives from that part of the united empire could find their way into that situation ; would fifty Catholics, if fifty there could be, ever think of persuading the (louse of Commons to take any measures that should ever tend lo separate Ireland from Gees' Britain? Bat to go farther, and suppose they should be so in clined, is Parliament so consti tided as to render it possible for them to succeed in their attempts ? No thing can be more absurd and preposterous than such an idea. My Lords, the same fears were pre tended to be entertained, and the same ridiculous arguments were very generally urged at the time of the union between England and Scotland, that such a measure would endanger the Hierarchy. We have, however, now had the experience of a whole century, in all which time there have been forty-five Members in the House of Commons, and I ask whether there has ever been one single instance in which they have made the slightest or most distant attempt to oserturn the establishment of the country, or if any one Scots Member ever endeavoumed, or ever broached an idea. or a with, to render the Presbyterian persuasion supe riorsto the estahlishmelit ? It is really astonish ing, my Lords, that, with such proceedings be fore our eyes, in cases so entaftly similar, we should, at this time of day, hear such argu• meats seriously and gravely addressed to an as sembly so enlightened, as that I am now address , ing. My Lords, I canvot here help asking, is as exclusion that shuts nut the Catholics from the su perior and highest offices of the Law and the Navy, more proper ? I have seen, in my own time. a pre decessor of the Noble Lord who now sits on the woolsack ; I have seen a Lord Chid .lustice, a First Lord of the Admiralty, and Generals and Admi rals in abundance, from that part of the United Kingdom ; and yet, I believe, I can appeal to your Lordships, whether there ever was seen in one of those, while in even the highest offices. any one instance of their endeavouring to change the Episcopal Government of the country in favour of Presbyteryanism.? My Lords, so ingenious is the desire in many persons to maintain these exclusion*, that they admit it to be true, the Catholics could not easily overturn the Government; but say they, if these privileges and franchises which the Catholics desire are so :Jule, why are they so eager to obtain them ? It appears to me, my Lords, to be very ob vious. I will take Ore three professions of the law, the navy, and the army. Let us look at the incen. tives which stimulate men to enter into each of those, we shall find they ate a thirst for fame, and a praise-worthy ambition to rise to the highest and most eminent stations incident to each. Every student in the various Inns of Court, while he is consuming the midnight taper, and hourly en countering the difficulties and laborious researches of his profession, is stimulated to proceed, and bold ly to brave every obstacle, by uniformly and con stantly looking forward to that high exalted station, now filled by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, to the Chief Justice of the two superior courts, and in their way to those to the intermediate honours and emoluments attached to the Attorney and Solicitor General, and other desirable situations, which lead in honourable gradation to the very highest. In the two other professions there is an equally strong and natural impulse which urges men to encounter every danger, and brave even death itself in the never ceasing ambition and continual hope of one day or other art iving at the proud and glorious stations of a Howe, a Nelson. or an Abercrombie. My friends, it must ever be a most consolatory and pleas- , ing reflation to every Briton to be able to say to himself, that there is no man who walks the streets in this country * who may not, except with those exclusions I have mentioned, arise at the highest otlices of the state. These are strong and powerful incentives, which Nature has, with su masterly a hand, implanted in the. human breast which first lead men on. and afterwards impel them, with irresistible sway, to aspire at the highest honours and dignities, and to acquire the charaeler of heroes. These are considerations which equally stimulate the same high spirits to bear with repeated and unexampled privations. which they fre quently find in their way, and, with the same mo tives, enable them to overcome the want of. ask the Noble Lord on the wuolsack whether it would not. in the profession of the law, be deemed a grievous hardship that the students of Lincoln's Inn should be entitled to the chance of becoming Lord Chancellors and Chief Justices, and those of the Temple and our Inns of Court should not have any ? If we look to the navy, and say those belonging to certain ships, and in the army, to certain regiments, may rise to the highest pitch of preferments; but those belonging to any other ships or regiments, must never expert to rise, though they are possessed of talents, honour, courage, Integrity, and every noble quality which can adorn the human char aeter ; surely such a distinetion would be deemed most partial and injurious and could not fail of cre ating discontents and jealousies, which would at once be hurtful to the several professions, to the general welfare of the state, and a never-tailing source of sorrow and repining to those who were liable to them. Yet, my Lords, in all these, the loss of rank is not real ; but the rankling of the barbed shaft with which this oppression strikes them to the heart, is produced by their not being Allowed, how. ver su perior their powers and ability, the mere chance of rising to the top of their several professions. If your desire is, that you should have so large a por tion of the subjeets of this country as the Catholics of Ireland, eagerly and zealously attached to the G,lv:•rh. meat, and ready,to sacrifice their lises in defence and protalion of it, you must relieve them trom those injurious restrietions and disqualificatiuns, of which they complain ; if not, what hope i; tl.ere that you ever can prevail on them to exert their best powers to promote its interests and welfare? These rea sons, my Lords, do not appear to me to be light or trivial ; on the contrary, I think them deserving your most serious and attentive consideration : it is but little for you to give, whilst it is much for them to receive. In pro:lice also, much advantage will ensue from the knowledge of their being repre sented by persons of their own persuasion, in whom they will have confidence, and whom they would sup pose equally, or more deeply, interests) in any Par liamentary Regulations that may hereafter be made respating them . for, however few they may be, they will be satis fied with their admission, infinitely more than when told you have shut your doors against them, because they hold opinions injui ions to the safety of the state; and what, I would ask, can follow but suspicion and distrust in their minds, and discontent and lukewarmness in their hearts ? These reasons, my Lords, have induced me to bring forward the motion, and my great ob. jilt in doing so, is the uniting and knitting toge ther the hearts of all descriptions of men in this realm, which, in the service of the church, you pray for every day. I by no means ask you to say, you think as I do ; all I ask of you is, that you will not shut your eyes to the case of those Petition ers, but consult that which has never been ccnsider ed as trivial or unworthy notice, the real welfare of the empire at large. It has long been my wish to see this most important subjat brought before Par liament—though I would not, on my own accord merely, press it forward, however necessary I might individually chilli( it ; but, when 1 tound the higher riders of the Catholics in Ireland were snow ing impatient, and that it was their particular desire the question should be brought forward, I thought the season most favourable for that purpose. At the present hour, your outward situation requires you to unite, to close your ranks, and offer to the enemy a firm and determined phalanx, whenever he shall dare to shew himself in your country. In Ireland it is necessary to conciliate, and I know no mode so likely to do it effedually, as by granting a fair, full, and patient consideration of this Petition. I assuie you, my Lords, 1 feel proud in the thought, that I have been axed on to bring it forward, as \I: who would not feel so, in being chosen a. an 1 worthy of such particular trust and confidence, : I large a portion of his fellow-subjefbe, as tha entrusting to my care and management, the ta import •tnt concern in which they were ever enga;i. .1 have endeavoured tc do the subj..ift evaty degree justice in my power, and will not, the. clore, truubl,2' your Lordships further, at present, than to m ove.. a 'That this I louse will Eirsolve itself i nto a Con n mittee of the whole Hoarse. to consider the said ti• Petition." o The LORD CLIANCA LIR having road ri t e question purport Lord :H . ....: a . W m ;C 1. % S r ß d U s , p ß li 1 1 1 gori ieehs spo k e owuli hdo w it htf b o tehwe h t :d h eisiuc e cilhoyt ifblE,l4. s;e,litiltiiobejtoweit6tr.i, ;fren. in the sentiments and u discarded s a p rd eec ed h, fr t n h m at o rno ur moderation considerations to, and that violence and party feelings should L: Daly sorry he so ldvk.Lei.tir se itL d o t :m dial ti departed f:ti,pliwtilohnktrciee,n:at itclot, nut any istttoijoe: f intd r idi o lye rie n si : i lia inh t ar l oin i a ugau t s ei ta like n ; ni1 0 44t , ;,,. . i r t by uttered, r t Ltr i oi n tur , ,do h lo,rh y hed s k t: hE y p,, i laviN t s i n g vate , ed to the House, whether, in a singe word he h a ; bad -recommended as necessary to the lair invt .„,. gation of the question ? - Lord HA W KESBURY—ts 1 understood th- Noble Lotil to say what I have befine stated, and if this is the wish of the Noble Lord, to agree on thr principal of season, I know tisa well what is due to the House, to myself; and to the Petitioners ie. ; not to confine myself within that r-osiesation which the subjeCt reptiles. The Nobl. I„erd has out do. fined or explained the nature of ..is motion ; Let whatever it may go to, I have ever deprecated , L , idea of its being brought forward, stud have used my utmost endeavours to prevent it ; but, Lor e brought forward at the present moment, I thin; my duty to state, that my objeffion to it goes to a . time it can be supposed to exist. I allow the G. tholics have been, may be, and are gy , , l no o dti ya ,tl l ,em a c n oy d nse : lt i fi e t,u. subjeds, and that every imputation to the contrary the may fundamentalb e fal sea nd unfounded; prin t cipsof but law l , tints, and will trust your Lordships cannot brindle. ed to abandon those by any reasons hitherto urge I by the Noble Baron. tallow there ate no laws wl:,ch circumstances may not render it necessary to abro. gate and abolish ; but there are also laws which ere to be considered as of that nature and impurtancr, that they ought never to be broke in upon. The first principle of law at the Revolution, and also of te Bill of Rights, is, that the Sovereigo must be a Pea. tdstant ; and viewing that, with regard to here& tery Monarchy, they put the question fairly, an decided, that whatever might be the inconveciencies of creaking the line of succession, they would rather encounter them than hart a King Of a different per. suasion. They had tell; ;he inconveuieucies of such a King, in the reign of James 11. and were re solved not to endure them any more. In decidi:,z this, my Lords, there is another important pot which grows out of it from necessity, viz. Th.: where a King must tie of the established persuasn.:,, those who advise him must be the same. The. may, I allow, be shades of opinion ; but whei ' as with us, the law is above the Cowo, the prism plc cannot be smelly adhered to. It L were net a, am, altogether hostile to the motion, I should a danger in it, however modified. There is a Ica: difference between ttotestant Itit.sesiders t tholics The Inflater dtl - titst ill kr.:,wledge any ore o's jurisdiEtion, or pay obedience to any foreign poerit the Catholics do; and there is no Protestant te t must see that where you allow an Ecclesiaoical Jurisdittion, there must arise a Civil Juriefitii.o. The present question is not, whether persons held:; these tenets shall have civil rights, but sv;,:. cher they shall enjoy political lower? and of this I can allow of no increase Some years ago the Legislature of Ireland granted Cathoies the eleflive franchise, whether wisely or net. I will not say. It ma . / now ha beneficial is the Catholics, and not detrimental to Goyer. ment, because they must return Protestant telo.:- bers ; but once open to them the right of being re turned Members themselves, and it would wont to little less than universal suffrage, and might be. come a contest whether Catholic or Protestant vote's Sh.4lld govern counties. I view this subjeet, my Lot ds, 111 so different a light from the Noble Belo, and I think matters so mach ohanged since Ihol, tau any man who was in favour of it then, would be Against it now. Whoever redetts on the Firma situation of Europe, and recolleCts, that, eicept the I louse of Austria, all the Catholic Governments is it are under the dominion of France, wiU see there never was a moment in which sound considerativa and reason should teach us, this is not the time" do it. We should wait and see the issue of the c.eit,a in which we are engaged, before we give the esthe tics a power we may hereafter most bitterly repent , :. —lf, my Lords, we proceed to enquire what prac• tical benefits would be likely to result to the persons more immediately interested in this application, I venture to pronounce that they would not corre spond to the expettations which would be excites'. The individuals amongst the great hot) , of the Iri , li Catholics, who could possibly be heneirrd. waled Is: but few, whilst the general mass of the populavel would be little interested ; but it ought rot to be overlooked, that this very partial benefit would be conferred at the expellee of the whole system of your laws. In corroboration of this assertion, it May be sufficient for my purpose to advert to the exan. ~ tions which took place after the late rebelii.o .1 Ireland. In 1798, Committees were areo'sli."- '. l the Irish Parliament to enquire into the cirC,w rebellion. id uais who had to s mtansoceseofintdhei,Afrdeetakena pardon n s a e. l ts i ci e ir;l t in that rebellion, on condition of their anssved ig interrogatories, and discovering what they knor concerning it. These persons underwent , ac to r' ' inlly, a striCt examination. I speak not now of t h e . self-convilled declarations of one who was extolle 4 by some persons in this country, as a man of loyalty as well as of brilliant talents; I set aside this MA (O'Connor's) declaration, and I refer to the answer. of those whom I consider to have been in every so spat his superiors, I mean Dr. NPNiren and Coun- I Emmet. Amongst other questions, they wet! asked, Ist, Whether any ecclesiastical establi.hmts , w wroa as svi p :thi r t o lec o nh o d se teidi d e. b a y nis t ,w h he o er se nvre w iat h i o ng, p it r i4i om ir yr o t:: t t ed ahsi.n this in h o r e f : litw thee i i r i ll g,-norl.. ing rei: aln con old 1 press Ing. and sines in th, cnnst s:• 45 they trio; Catln .....'. the der be who sub . out there, is to lion t licy. venttl powe blishe in and and, our i land canto niun Willi nut u akilkjel •4cep t' e all 81 but a