The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1805-05-14 00:00:00

k:; erti&f?' "r 7Tf. v i) IMPERIAL PARLIAMENL - HOUSE OF LORDS—Mow DAY, May 13. shore the doors were opened for the adusi.wion of strangers, ninaq b us i n ess WAS ttalSitte4 ; principally con t"..A"felsoi. ulterior se, 4 .1.1 connected with the nv. ' r tion. of upoa which their e I.,sd" were tv. , es Colionittee lilt A,na;: ,„ "0 these of was a conf , once with Deputies from - ""e k „' "f tug, lee ' ', of the cJaereoce, hellerl be the Duke o f ::.1:0jol le"uilio-rt"o-f-thffi riv"Lovird.hiaii,e were these of the Ceinniest by Mr. Leycester (see the i'ng, of the Howe of Coons:mt.) itriNto'S C anlol.l‘..S OF IRELAND. The Order of the Day for resuming the. Adjourn. ed Debate upon this suhjeet being read ; The Earls of SUIEOLK and BUCKING HAMSHIRE. presented themselves fo'r a hearing at the sane time ; at length, the latter gave way, and Earl SUFFOLK proceeded to state his reasons foe suppoitiog the Motion. He contended, the pe w t er of the Petition sh o u l d b e g ranted not as a lees, but as a right ; it was therefore more proper to grant it freely, w!lea such a fair opportunity pre ivted & t o e Wiih :rope& to the time, he thought *present peculiarly the fittest fur it, in order to conciliate four reillions of our fellow subjefis, at a p e riod when we were threatened with invasion. It as nest to be exrened the Catholics would be satis fird eabeshe limited powers hitherto granted them, they had a right to the lull participation of our excel- Coastitutioe.They should not forget how much •f this very Constitution was owing to the spirit 211 d exertioas of our Catholic :remoter; ; and, as to the idea. that persons of that religion were not fit to he truer i in the administration of our civil af fairs, or woe commands in out armies, was riot the ablest Minister France ever had a Protestant? Were sot the best and rout victorious of their Generals, en ly. Towne, and Saxe, Protestants What den y; then could there be in admitting Catholics to commands is our armies ? and as to admitting them into offices in the magistracy, he had it from an an. th , nty on which he confidently relied, that the leave which for a length of time prevail-din par er i r rafts of Ireland, was principally owing to th er flue ice of the Roman Catholic Ministers. He shoo if certainly support the Noble to d's motion. e he Lase ot OXFORD, after vindicating the con isteecs of his poliiicel sentiments, made a• few ob sersations in support of what fell from the Noble Ear! who preceded him. The F4l , lof BUCKINGHAMSHIRE rose, and observed, that the official situations he so long held in helm r, gave him rate pretensions to a know ledge of the .affairs of that country. lie hat the honour of prep. sag the Al of 179 e, to the I t ish Parliament, by which the situations of the Roman Catholics were so highly bee fitted, and were it iii• Onward that he was unfavourably inclined towards the Irish Catholics, he had for contredietion but to Offer to the provisions of that statute, the objra of niblick was to give the Catholics an equality of Civil Rights. with the rest of their fellow sulisieeks; Pe &teens. so a p.irt of the language need by the Noble Benin who proposed the Motion on a former eight, which he considered as unwarranted, either by the subeeet or the occasion. In the discussion of the whjett before them, the principles and senti ments of the Catholic, with respect to ecclesietical go vernment, were worthy of seriousconsidetation :those is a greet degree might be colleeted from a produc hoe of the t ituler A reetsislorpof Dubiiii (Dr.Troye, to parts of which the Noble Earl referred, particularly that respeaing the supremacy of the Pope as bead of the Catholic Church, in which it was held, as agreed to by all true Catholics as an immutable article of their faith; such poems, therefore, with oterence to the oath of supremacy, were inadmissi ble to seats io Parliament. •As to tne higher offices of the state, he was free to acknowledge his opinion, that in all his dominions 'hoe were not persons more finsily attached to His Majesty's person and Government, than the Lords and Gentlemen who represented the Catholic body of Ireland ; it was but justice to acknowledge this, whatever use may be made of it in argument againit his intended vote of that night. Bat lie was sorry to be obliged to say. that person; of such • a description as he alluded to, had Ins: the:r influence °ter the great mass of she Roman Catholics of Ireland, who were near allured by very different kinds of men. In illus. traaion of this, he adverted to the choice made by the Catbolie body, of an agent iu the person cr Theobold Wolfe To:se, by which, however, he dial not inca-i expressly a charge of disloyalty ; lrit allud ed to it as a case of extreme suspicion ; they pass ed vote, which, his'Loriship read, for presenting Mr. 'Cone with a sum of 15001. together with a gold medal worth 30 guineas, as a testimony of his ser vices, and of their gratitude. With respell to the measure of the Union, Rae of its pt incipal advantages was the ps-ospeet that by it, the Roman Catholics would be induced to be satisfied with their present eituatime without being admitted to what they de. Lire in the Petition, as their political situation from a majm i:y in a separate, to a decided minority in a united kisig.enm, was materially changed.. Were she prayer of the Petition granted, and Catholics admitted to a share in the representation, it might he produelive of the most serious coneequencts, particularly with respeß to the Protestant ecclesias tical establithewnte in Ireland • inasmuch as the couuties which f or med by f ar t he greatest part of the Irish representation, in three and four of the provinces, the Catholics were in a proportion of as six to one : this, joined to thonalure of the tenure of freeholds in that country, would throw a decided preponderance, in that respect, into the hands of the Catholics. Besides„ the present time was one of the most likely that soul be imagined to throw Ireland, circu mstance d as the empire isest present, into all the anarchy and confusion of eleetieneering contests between ceudidetes of cppo:i:e relig ions, anti would be attended with consequences the most per nicious. The sentiments of the Catholics, with re spea to the church establishments, were to be rot • leael front the confessions of Dr. Nl'Nevio and L--- -.4., 1 ; zi Viz ifistittot lEirtro: TUESDAY, NAY 14:1805. others, that what they wished for was relief from the payments of tythes : what might be the effeS of the intro,ltraion of a large number of men, repre senting such per , o,ns, inr‘• thc• Legislaturc, might easi`l he conceived. Apprehensions were enter tained at the time of the Scots Union from the trodanion of only 45 dissenting Membe; s ; but how much mote must such a cun.ideration Apply to the present case Ile fclt'the highest respea and predelittica far those principles on which the revolu tion was established ; and under them, he said, the subjea enjoyed the greatest possible portion of political sappiness. He could nut consent to that which would endanger the very foandation of that constitution, which, by its intrinsic excellence, was preserved ; while the governments and constitutions of ether countries fell a prey to the machinations or the attacks of jacobinism. He never could bring his mind to accede to what appears to go to make the principles urns which the title of the Illustrious House of Brunswick rested, or place the Noble and Learned Lord upon the Woolsack, in a situation of presenting that to the Soveceignfor his assent, which, he ought think, struck at the best and dearest i.o. terests of the country. These, he thought, could be best avoidt.d, as tar as in him lay, by his voting against the prayer of the petition. Lord Viscount CARLETON, in an able and argu mentative speech, supperted the effect of what was advanced by the noble Earl who spoke last. lie noticed the circumstance, that the R"man Catho lics, as relief was extended to them, increased in their demands. He knew of no particular ads, now, which re tremble precluded Ctholics from holding offices, but the operation of certain tests, not peculiarly applicable to them, but to every de scription of His Majesty's subjeas. He entertained similar apprehensions with the noble Eat! with re spell to the danger of the eccb-siastical establish ments of the country, were the prayer of the Petition agreed to ; and he adverted to the very great influence still possessed by the Tape, the medium of the clerg, upon the great mass of the Catholics in Ireland, whose influ ence, through the regular system of Romish Ec clesiastical government which prevailed there, was almost unbounded. 'The Noble and Learned Vis count proceeded to comment npies these topics, and supported with his accdstorned talents and legal po litical knowledge, the principal tobjedions urged against the prayer of the Petition so fmcibly by the Noble Earl who preceded hint. Lord HDTCtiINSON dehitered bit sen'imen4 upon the topics in discussion, with a considerable de gree of animation and warmth. He reprobated the idea thrown oat by some . Noble Lards. that the late rebellion in Ireland was a ' Roman Catholic re hellion. On the contrary. the *ens of its leaders were to destroy the cc..neciioil between Great Bri tain and Ireland. an lastead thereof to erea a Re public without a Xing. s Priest, or a Religion. The leaders of that intearrteliaa were mostly able men, aiidconseqoently they recurred tn eve y means to pm cure assistanceandt,uppOrt, which couldinfluence the minds of men, or touch the feelings of the human heart ; bin while means were adopted on the one hand to sow dissentious between persons of different religions persuasions in that country, he was sorry to o b serve, that artifices, not very dissimilar, were resorted to in this country, to inflame the minds of persons of one religion, against those who profess another, instead of endeavours being made to stifle those illiberal prejudices which had so long existed. Things had been asserted in that House, which tendered it impossible for him to pass over, without endeavouring to rescue the charailer of hit country. If the assertions to which he alluded were made in another place, he would not hesitate to call them the most unfounded calumnies. He little expelled, when this great and important question came to he discussed in the United Parliament, to hear it treated and discussed hi such a way ; when one of the main advancers he expelled to result from the Union was, that such subjeas would he considered of and discussed in a way befitting the liberal and enlightened Legislature of a peaceful and United Kingdom. His Lordship then entered into a vindication of the eon,lna of the Roman Catho lics, in many respeas, from the objeßions which had been made against it, and made several obser vations with respea to the supposed influence which the clergy, and particularly the Pope, had over the great body of the Catholics in Ireland, and which he characterised very differently tram the statements of Noble Lords opposite to him, on that head. Towards the conclusion of kis address, the Noble Lord particularly adverted to some matters in the way of accusation against the Catholics, which had been touched upon by a Noble and Learned Lord, on the former debate upon the subjeft. A great deal of this was to him most extrarrdinary, and more calculated for the meridian of a nursery, than for matter of debate in a grave, sober assembly of Le gislators. Some part of what that Noble and Learn ed Lord asserted, was of that nature, that he now called upon him for his evidence of the truth of it. He begged to be informed how or its what family such things existed ? lle censured that line of con dtia, and the use of language which, instead of tending to establish tranquillity. or to induce re pose, went to sow dissentions and inflame the minds of men against each other. He reprobated the weak and wicked policy which went to put such a number of loyal subjects of the King out of the pale of the Constitution. He adjured the House to agree to the motion of the Noble Lord, as best cal enlaced to strengthen the empire at large in so pe rilous a crisli as the present ; and to restore a long distralted and abused country to tranquillity, union, and prosperity. Lord REDk:SDALE, feeling himself so pointedly adverted to by the last speaker, begged their Lord ships' indulgence for a short esplenation. What he really said, on the points alluded to, was, and be knew the fat, that it was with the utmost difficulty a Protestant could procure a service or employment in Ireland. Ile had offi .ial opportunities of know- ing this, as trustee to several charities. Even in /Alin, the difficulty was very great, and th , iy were obliged to pat the children apprentices to handicraft trades. What he adeanced on those points was in controvertibly fad, and he was ready to declare it upon oath. A great deal of the evils he referred to on a former nigh t, were owing to the, existence of the Homan C atholic hierarchy in Ireland, which was diredly contrary to the law of the land. He was inclined to think the Catholics in general would be as well behaved and orderly in Ireland—were it not for the ex i stence of that hierarchy—as in this country, wh.ne no such system exists. I-le hew that in many parts of Ireland, a Protestant labourer could not find means to exist. Handicraftsmen sometimes got employment in the towns ; but children of Protestants, or day-labourers, who hats petted to be of that religion, found the greatest dilii eulty in getting either service or employment. He would not be deterred from delivering his senti ments, or stating fads which cadre within his know ledge, by any language held by any Noble Lnrd in that House. The Vail of ORMOND animadverted with a considerable degree of warmth upon some points which tell from the Noble Lord. He deemed it incumbent on him to contradid these, as urfound edly refleding on the charadet of his country. The points to which he alluded, he really had never heard of before, nor could be conceive that any such things could have existed. They were fitter, he thought, to be recited among a parcel of old wo men, than told in that assembly. Lord BORINGDON," though upon the whole he deemed favourably of the measure, yet he thought it neither fit nor desirable to agitate it at present. That impression should regulate his vote. Thy- Archbishop of CANTERBURY disap proved of the Motion. After a snits of conces sions, such as had been naltde to the Catholics, he did not exped a proceeding of this kind, which, if he ogreed to, he thonght would eventually be dan gerous in a Protestant state. The Earl of ALBEMARLE, in a speech of some length, supported the Motion. He spoke in vindication of the Catholics, from the charge of their believing that no faith was to be kept with heretics. The LORD CHANCELLOR, in a speech of some length, displayed his usual ability, legal and political knoiriedge, in supporting and enforcing the leading arguments of Noble Lords, who, like himself, were, upon the whole, unfavourable to the Motion. I'he Dukes of NORFOLK argued in support of the !Similar. The Earl of WESTMORLAND and the Bishop of ST. ASAPII severally spoke against the Motion; as did Lord ELLENBOROUGII in a speech of great ability, and at some length. The Earl of MOIRA, in a neat and forcible sPc•:ths supported the hlotien ; were he induced to tLint that the prayer of the Petition would in the least clash with the establishments of the country in Church and State, he certainly should not support it. With respell to the stress which had been laid on the Catholics acknowledging the exclusive supre macy of the Pope; he argued, that it referred merely to spiritual considerations, and by no means to poli tical. The Earl of DARNIsEY also took the same side, and adverted to some considerations, which evinced that the condat of the Protestants of Ireland was not such as should tend to conciliate their Catholic fellow-subjefts; and he supported the arguments of Noble Lords at his side, that the late Rebellion was not a Catholic one. The Earl of CHICHESTER argued at some length, rather against the motion. Lord AUCKLAND delivered his sentiments against the motion at sotre length, proceeding upon those general principles, which on a former occasion his Lordship adverted to as indicative of his opinions on the subjed. The remainder of the Df.bate, though in some parts interesting, the extreme lateness of the hour obliges us to omit. The following is a sketch of proceeding ; Lord JUNG, in a speech of some length, sup ported the Motion. . The Bishop of DURHAM said a few words in explanation. Lord BOLTON opposed the Motion. The Earl of LONGFORD delivered his senti ments ; after Which Lord GRENVILLE entered. upon an able re ply, of considerable letigth, which being finished ; Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH, in explanation, said it was his wish to remove all religious restraints, if any yet existed, on the Roman Catholics ; to al low them a fall community of civil rights, with the rest of His Majesty's subjetls, but it was never his idea to put into their bands powers to subvert the Constitution ! The question being loudly called for, tlfb Ilouse divided— For the motion, 37—Proxies, 11-51—Against it, 133—Proxies, 45-178.—Majority against Lord Grenville's motion, 147. At HALF-PAST FIVE O'CLOCK this morn , ing, the House adjourned till Wednesday. a ROUSE OF COMMONS. A Msiage from the Lords informed the House, that their Lordships had agreed to permit Lord Harrowby to be examined before the Sele& Com mittee of the House, on the subject of the Tenth Repott, if his Lordship thought tit. The Lords also requested a conference with that House, in the painted chamber, on the subjeft of the Message, sent from that House, requesting their Lordships to permit Viscount Melville to be examined betire the said Select Committee, on the subject of the Tenth Report. The House agreed to the conferente, anti a Corm miters was appointed to manage the conference on T NT. -. ; • • 'I (P7l , IiZ"XWC*, the part of the Commons, who waited oa the Lords accordingly; and. on •thtir return. Mr. IA eester, the Chairman, appearvd at the bar. and sta et: .he • result, that the Lords, after urging the nature of their privileges, with respea to permitting 2cers t be examined by Committees of that House, had de sired the Committee appointed by the Commons to manage the conference, to inform the Mouse, that their Lordships had agreed to permit Viserint Mel ville to attend the &led Committee, if his Lordship thought fit. CATHOLIC PETITION. Mr. FOX rose to make the Motion of which - had so long given notice, and spoke to the f - dlowirg purp.rt :—' Sir, I col i ftss it is with no incousiderabla degree of anxiety that! now :hie to bring forward a suujeft for the consideration of the House, which I deem to be of Gr greater importance than any to which I ever yet had the honour of calling their ,t -tention. Still, Sir, though I do feel such it is solely on account of the .-cat importance of it, and not from any doubt ci its real claims to the coasideraiion ar.d justice 44m House., .After ! • having lately aeled in many instances in which the minds of the Members of this Hoe have been harrassed, by investigating voices aCCUSa. tinns for sifts of delinquency, which do no ho nour to the country, and cannot but be painful to every one who regrets on their nature and ten dency ; it is with the highest satisfadion that 1 nosy bring before the House a subjed which, though tt may perhaps, by some, be considered asliarrassing. will, I am certain, be deemed by the Esileatest part as entitled to every degree of resped and regard, as it rests entirely on principles which every man must feel to be just and right, wlw, fairly considering the blessings attendant on the Constitution of this coun try, and the great hardship those crust naturally teal who are in any degree, as they conceive, unjustly debarred from, or deprived of them. Sir, the clues• tion which 1 bave now the honour to lay before ei,u, for I protest I de feel it a very great her.our to have been seleded to bring forward this suhjed, arises nut of a Petition which has just beon read to the 'louse, and which comes from a bc•dy of peoples who form four-fifths of His Majesty's subjects in Ire. land, consisting, in the whole,, of four or five mil lions of people. The Roman Cattiolicatiorre are es. timated at tour millions, which gia us t amount matey to a fourth than a fifth of the whole number; and the satistadion I feel is more than doubled. when I reflect, that, in preferring their claims, I do trot of the smallest injury to any one, apd if I can Foet suede the House to grant that to which, to my opinion, they are so fully and justly entitled, I am sure it will be d.iing a great and most essential . service to the country. It will, per haps, be somewhat difficult to choose with what part of the Petition .to begin. . Some persons may imagine that the number of persons who are interested in the Trey ion, Are deserving primary no tice; and it 1 had not heard it from the most un doubted authority, I mold not have believed that so large a portion as one-faur.h of His Majesty's European sulajeds are at this moment labouring under restrictions and disqualifications, in marten to them of the greatest importance and moment, the full and free use and benefit of which all the rest of His Majesty's subjects enjoy, without - any abatement. Before I enter upon the dire& matter of the Petition, 1 beg leave, Sir, to say a very few worts on the general principle of rights, and to explain my opinion thereon. Whatever differ ences there may be on that head, I believe they will, when fairly considered, he found to be more in words, than in Get, that we differ theoretically ; but that what we all call ri;bts, are pradeny pretty nearly one and the same. Timm arz two modes, Sir, of considerin r- rights, and of appre ciating what is doe to each .' I mean, Sir, the rights of subjeds, and the rights cf Governments; and in speaking of these, I consider no doubt the rights of the governed to be the paramount of the two ; and one of the most essential benefits that can result from this, is that all the subjeils of every Govern ment have a right to equal laws. I admit, Sir, thet the legal maxim or adage, sales pcpuli turret) is k , will make some slight alteration in this doctrine ; hut it has been laid down by several very learned authors, who have written on this subject, and particularly by Dr. Bayley, that the original right of a Govern ment consisted in doing every thing within their power for the good of the people ; and the right of the people is, that they shall not he restrided in any thing necessary to the general weal. Thera are, unquestionably, exceptions in particular cases, in which the safety of the country is at stake, or likely to be hazarded. In arguing on this, therefore, both parties ought to state the point candidly and fairly. Some persons may perhaps say, they would give this to the Catholics as a matter of poiicy; I say directly and positively, I would give it as a sight ; others may say the very reverse, and refuse to give it at all. I wished therefore to say these few words; becausz, as it must be a question for future consi deration, I have endeavoured, in the outset, to shew, that the difference really exists more in words than in fad. With respell to this, as applied to the Catholics, I think it an undeniable p , sitior, that they ought to be on an equal tooting sii.h the rest of His Miije,ty's subjeds, where placing them so, is not injurious or hurtful io the welfare of the State. 'There is then perhaps a dui.rencc as to the degree : some might be of opinion, that it should be less than I would allow ; others may think the sate ty of the country should be first. I !latter myself, however, we shall sot go into such shades of dif ference, but meet the sohjad in a fair, candid. cad manly way. The Ropan Catholics had ortgavaly rights the same as other subj.-ds, but Govenunses has since thought it proper and necessary to abridge them. Whether GuliCllll2l,:nt was right Of w:01,1 in doing this, is a roes:doe at the :iresern moment not necessary for ere to tini.uss. I need not state, in this part, that mere is Sio prescription for exceptioas and restri4liun4 14, wear.!, in fad, be a solesism in poluic.l regsoning, ta sa7 Ili. 'he eu, re+• 15. 314111 ,111 I! , og of k to h, ~* . ,i ~: " r,O. .t .110 1 Ir t: id, J, reirlf Ca 101 l A' Dice :1 I HAI L. No .9 trtil4