The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1809-05-12 00:00:00

1 •• • I • • • !lllra* The fortter cheep they - were (lOW teem more particularly to eutertaiu, as the Noble Lord stood already, in the opinion of so large a minority, convicted of corruption ; it was a eir renostance that ought to make them. more sensible of the propriety of reparating the charges, and en tear'. g that which was more rprcifirally urged. It lead bees' said that this motion was paving the way for Parliainentery Reform, and he be lieved, from the view which the Hon. Gentleman Pail stated, that it was introduced for that pferpose. !t would be ati inconsistency Meech', Inns to de clare himself an enemy to Parliamentary Reform, which he had formerly espouser), and to which he was Still attached ; to the present moment he was Iv friend to the measure. As men grew older, they grew .ore prurient, and he might possibly have abated, in come degree, the enthusiasm of ins ' younger duvet. There was something in the eir citinstances of the present times, which, with all sittacluiteat to the principle of Reform, induced bim. to look upon them, as not admitting the pro peropportouity ; lie did not think this was the loess hi briog .: forward. At the same time, he -,0,11.1 beg leave to draw Al distinction between these who throught that Parliamentary Reform Would bring raid opus the country, and those who were not only favourable to the sues:ore, but to tiie time ; that distinction he would beg leave to thaw, and the prineiple. of that distinction he would stand upon. What was it made this question start up now P aothlug hint the ferment of the public mind, evited hr the late inquiry into the conduct crate Ilukt ref York. Many, he was persuaded, cried out for reform. who did not know with what view. At the bottom of the public mind the coesidera tioa airs the weight'of taxes and the notinii of re form a relief from •those taxes. The Honourable fientleinaa lied bilked much of the prosperity ea' the country. (u prosperity which he admitted, a:.l t s wledi he rejoiced) ; hut that Hoeourahle Sentleman, must have known lit.ltaif the timely of the peoole ; he must have been little acquainted with the spirit that pervaded the lower classes of society, if he did not koow that tee cry of Par- Itainelosiry Reform, ar liar as it was applicable to them ? was only a complaint against the weight of taxation. The deduction of to per cont. from every man's income, was enough to make him alive to every* plan of reform ; ei:ri when the public were told, that honesty in the Parliament would prevent that weight ; it was natural they should cling to any measure with u view to such relief. Evert man was disposed to listen to schemes which lied for their object the alleviati n of such bur tneus as he was a -le,fer in, hut lie Pie T. ) co.'s:l(l+Tel it tlw foulest 'cost unkind delnsion, to lead them into an expectation which was ground te,4, anti eiteritira t te them to entertain hopes ahich were certain of enieradictiou. Paoli emeatary Pe lham should not, in hie opinion. lead to ally alatvy discussion. If the Honourable fieetleiasee wa. wail ing to introduce it, lie might do so, bat Ire T.) did not worrier that or was necessary to pre pare the way for it by degrading public eliaractere-- he did not conceive it necessary to seek, io the irri tation of the country, produced by attacks on such e;iaractirs, en argeolitat in its support. lilt was only micro such - grounds Poreamentary Reform could he supported. at would furnish the very strongest reesou for ebandeuiug it altogether ; but such was not the vase ; it was by the discussion of abstract principles, and the observation of general {acts, that such u cineltion was to he maintaiwitel. These facts went to Knee, that there was en influ ence used in the int rodoctioa of Members into that Mum, which could not, and might not, to hate their approbaeom Mr. Pitt himself had gone the .moth of proposing, that the burgage tenure should be bought up; thereby edionting the use that was made of it. For some reaion or other, which lie could not &cesium' for, it winked to he the Mod to popularity, to disclaim- party. He owned that he had heard, with groat surprise, the Ho strisruble Mover of the motion declare, that he was no party man. If lie lint not declared so, he (Mr. T. ) would have feu/lured under the mistake. that they belonged to the same party.— /Beer! Hear !) But if lie thought that it brvaght him any addition of populanty, the Hon. 'Member war welcome to adopt it, without fearing aby attempt upon his part to participate in time ad vatitage. Ile must owe, wieetever the consequence might be, that be was a party man, he had al ways, nod would always act with a certain party.— 'llse lion. Gentlemen theinselves, who seemed to spurn at time idea, acted with all the discipline of a tasty ; utiun smile questions they would assent -11:44 vote—others they. del not consider of such importuneo, and refused ter vote ti eon—they seemed prepares! to come in and go. out accerding sue their leader wished; hut who their leader was, he would not pretend to determine, or whether they had any. • leader they would tied it necessary to adopt at forme time or other: upon what principle they would ele-_t him, he could not say ; but there were two or three candidates now, from whom they would pro -6104 select• one. 'they seemed to affect con ertelment : they know enough of . the human mind, to ling. , ' that stage effect had a great influence, awl thin. the public attention would be excited by a mysterious character. It was gratifying to them to be spoken of iu such a light, and have it re presented, whenever they undertook to perform any thing in the way most likely to lax attention; us for in stance, ou such a slay one of the men of the so party is to bring forward a 'notion. He (M-. T.) •r 5. against the 'moist i originating in that party, as he: was neainst every • hiug he dial not understand. Th •se Gentlemen were perpetually saying, that they did not want to turn the present Ministers from their situations, yet they brought charges in their pockets, the here FW ntion of which obliged two of the Ministers to walk out. He did not want their support for his friends, it would he vain to attempt to procure it ; but he thought he might ineiiire of there, why they were such friends to the ntiser party, and why they should seen, fear ful lest that party should be turned out He It , err that a weak Administration would be geate fill to those whose purposes were 110 i But lie did not mean to accuse the party of whicb he was now speaking of purposes that would lead them to prefer a weak to *sarong one. They were -indeed in the habit of accusing all but themselves. They said upon every occasion that the two parties -came to an iininediate mitlerstaoding—thet they coalesced sod protected each other-whenever cot- a ..-..- q -~--~-... --~--~- • • top,tion mos threatened. Thum mu a thiltr, against him to which he should plced 01;1+4 ' was that of being in itifliue. He was mulatto-. nately not aware of 0.,• fat t, lint supposed that fie was now much richer th-in btfore be was in the Government. It was very easy to say that• the produce of the sweat of our brown Wei Wrung from us in taxation, but lie much questioned whether, if they lied the matiageinent of affairs themselves, they could prevetit prime oceasionul deviation from that strict economising distributing of it which he allowed to be essential. It was said that there were proofs of corruption he saw no proofs : taking the luxury of the times sod the nature of this offices into account, the present age was us little corrupt us could ne expected. The worthy Baronet had expressed h',lnsitlf hostile ' to the Bill which *as intiodu_ald by the Right I too. Gentleman over the way, Co: the porp4se of pie venting the abuses now existing ; butt he would own. that what had fallen from the worthy Baronet made him more favourable to it than before. It wail sualeimt for him that Parliament had recognised the principle, and was willing to adopt measures for its • pre% ennui). In these measures he would coocur, but he would not in the injustiers of seleetinz two ucerscuel, who haul done what bud been donein many iiiatances before. without any particolur aggravation to distinginsh their cases. He believed that the gill would be effectual, cud that to a very great extent ; however, if he was mistaken, it would .be time enough, when experiince proved him to he an, to Join ill 41 mother measure of a mut 'COM. prehensive and efficacious deseriptiun. .Ile termed with the Honourable Gentle:oats, w!io sail that it was the essomee of the Constitution, that the different interests should be represented—the landed ought to have the predominance, but not the whole influence ; nor could it, unless the representation was to he confined exclusively to counties, the inonied interest would always prevail in the towns. It was desirable that monied men should ob sin seats, but not that they should pun. chase them by the bare dint of money. For it often f Il into strange pockets, and he did not wish that those who were inclined to hazard more money this they could spare, should have an opportunity of hidulging their speculation guineas in the House of Commons. If the Honounible tkoneu wished to create a difficulty in voting against the motion, they would mot cio it more effectually than by introducing Parliamentary Re form, and requiring a direliction of their mineiples from thaie who were inelhied to oppose the motion on its own grounds. He concluded with fuming au Aruendinewt. 't That that pait of the charge, which went to affix to Lord Castlereagh the charge. or unduly ineueoeing a Meut:ier of that House to desert his duty, should be entertained, and sent to a Committee." The SeeacLa oh‘.ersed, thrt • though it aUi per fectly ►egulrr to make an oral charge, it W;III usual to iii-ert it in the Jourii.ils after it had been made he hoped the lion. Nleniber would assist the Clerk to insert it in the Joni-Imi'. After a few further words between the SPEAKER andMr.:_ricas EY ; Mr. Win fifteen said. that he rose under great disadvantage, site: tae 9prech of his Right Him. Friend; because hr 41$ truly and sincerely- his friend, Isecanse the was most eloquent in itself, and because .n.iny things had fallen from him at which he was surprised and disappointed. He (Mr. W.) steod in the situation of one who tied seconded the motino ; aid if it was true that all who concurred were under the dominion of party feelings and party 'prejudices ; he, a•nosig the rest, must fill owlet the lash of his Houourahle Friend. He had heard part of the speech of his Honourable Friend before, not indeed in the same worth; be used that night, but 'when. under the influence of popular feeling, and patriotic intention, he come forward with those very argument, to which he hail now replied. anti which he had the mortiticsti;in of liearin ; ; re lied to' in toe manner at last :Woo ed by ionised. Del the Right Hon. Gent. look back to the ;eland in w;!'eh be s pri, ; ,nwel Parlia mentary Retor.n, and did he think that it was on necessary and unpopular at that moment? For his part he (ail.. W.) looked back with pride and antis- faction to the effort which he made in common with the Honourable Gentleman to do that which, if it was done, would, he was persuaded, protium the hest consequences upon the community at large. A Right Houourable Friend of his had mentioned the different eras of Parliamentary RefOrm ; the last of which was the ferment created by the investigation into the conduct of the Duke of York; but before any attempt was made to censors that spirit, they ought to consider that the pnblic were in possession of the whole of the evidence.; they did not decide from ignorance and presump tion, but from a knowledge of the fact, and an ex ercise of the judgment, to which they were perhaps as competent as any Member in the House. The Right Hon. C;entlensan had complained of an att.telc upon public melt. Those unconnected with the Ministry, a, well a, those who were connectv.l,. were public men ; and they, in their endeavours to instruct the public mind, and advance the public cause, had shin attacks to complain of, and treatincut to disaporove and resent. An Ho. Pourable Gentleman had said that he would no more thank the Hoes. Wirer for bringing forward this charge, than he would th a nk Mrs. Clarke for her purity. Unmixed motives newer entered into the heart of man, so weak was human nature. that Cuto himself was not entitled to the praise of motives wholly unmixed. For himself, altho' he acknowledged he was not entitled to it, he would do all ha could for the benefit of his country; and whe ther he had to contend against the tide of unpopu larity, within or without doors. that object 'Mould be in his view : in supporting Parkeinelitary Reform.. he was Coll9Wrlllillg to that object ; for he sincerely believed it would be gwoJuctive of good to The coun try. The Rt. Hon. Gentleman rippowie opposed the motion, Upon the ground that it was the first of a series which was to end in Parliamentary Reform ; at the same time that he declared hunwlf really to make war upon corruption. he (Mr. W.) would be glad to know when the light would begin ? The greatest men of threconnuy were friends to the measure, and would the Right Honour able Gentleman set tip his authority against them ? His Right Hon. riiend near him seemed to der the transaction as he would the purchase of any individual ; brit the case will widelj different when • - ~... • -; • • • • . .• . - • . two Ministers teak itonor. to proem's , the return'of a Member to Parlitioneot. He hod said that private confide:ice must haft. been broken through, that social intercourse • Must hare been vio lated. He was certe i n l y o f opinion, that it was not the ease. However, if it was,. the eircina stance of prodmiirg 'an exeeptionahle witness •to prove.. the • charge, would not have the ef-_ feet of defeating the charge altogether. end it was often necessary to resort tosuch instruments. It liras said that they Afraid emir stand up to vindicate the characters of pulahe men from f l the imputations thrown upon them. Why were they • not called ups to atinal forwent for that purpose et tits timt of the Hampshire petition,ltild support"- the characters of public Mee, and the L'enstitution of the country? It oilfield, that there ens no pre cedent, bat there were preeedivits'even in the most corrupt times , in the times of Walpole, which, •• .compared with the preseat pun: age, was corruption in excess. A Committee was appoinied tie inquire into the Miisisters conduct for the laat two years..— .He did nut itirivrstand what his Hem Friend meant •by wisleog to separate the question of Lord Castlereagh front the other.; he was for tempe rate reform, the reform which Burns approved. He did not think that an piecemeal should, be exclud ed from the House, lint there were pensioners *hum he would wish to see out of it. Nattier could he agree with those who exercised no elusive in public men. The advocates of corruption were the real advocates of Bonaparte ; they had proinoted his cause in all other countries, mid unless counter acted in this, would have a similar result. For those reasons he would utopia the motion of the Hon. Gent. ; in 41 , ing which, he acted according to the dictates of his conscience. • Mr. B. BATHURST conceived the Hon. Baronet's opinion relative to the vote given by the House upon the conduct of the Duke of York to be ill founded, and thought that when the Hon. Hamlet desired Members tar lay their hands upon their hearts and declare whether corruption existed or not ; he should hove considered the judgment passed by that House upon the Sheriffs of Middlesex, and have recollected the votes of the millers of Isleworth. That irregulasitirs were found to exist, could not be denied ; he thought they should be calmly arid dispassionately stated to the public; but the way in which they• were blazoned forth. seemed calculated to lead to a Re volution. As means were laid on the table to prevent such practices is those complained of in futare, it would be better to pass the present mat ter over. To spread discontent farther than it al .reatly existed, was wrong; and as the Honte had it in their power, he thought they ought to cheek it. Mr. WHITIIKEAD and Mr. flaeltiella explained. Lord Cottiastis conceived that a necessity for Reform existed, and that the present tnode. of oh to. • g seats in Porliasoent was injurious to the country. The principal reason why lie wished for Reform was, that ling Majesty's Ministers might be enabled to act wills the satiation of the people, and thought that the money lavished upon pieces and pension* was of minor con adenoma. . Mr. Possum said, that he never listened to a debate in which arguments were thrown away upon subjects so wholly unconnected with the mat ter sander discussion.—Parliamentary Reform had nothing to do with the coustrisetioci of the House, neither had the opinions express.d at public meet-• ings. The charge before the Haulm was, that two Members of the Administration hail procured thro' pecuniary meal's a sent for a gentlemen, to whom they afterwards attempted to dictate how to vote, and they were now required to institute an inquiry to ascertain the fact. As to the question of Par liamentary Reform, he vroald carefully avoid giv iag his opinion till it Caine fairly before the Howie; it was not one of a trifling nature, hut of the most serious importance. He iueant to tontine himself to the question itsi!lf, and should agree with his Hoonureble I.inid before Whether the charge was well or ill Imiud ed he would not pretend to say, but this he knew, the Hoo. Gentleman was iii the House, and was induced to go out, which was a presumptive proof against the parties acstsed, bin it was his wish that the subject should not be inquired into. Th. allegation that Ministers of the Crown were known to assist Members to a seat by pecuniary means was not eontined to Ministers of the Crown alone; all were I.oplieateJ; it hail been so since the Revolution, and could tie, • as a man of honour, tale the present opporsostip , to run down his political adversary? To ooe es( persons implicated, he felt the greatest political untiputhy, lie was the destroyer of the 'Govern went of his country ; but the more be llelt that antipathy, the inure guarded lie was over his feel ings; he had voted against him the Qthir night, and so he would, upon the same grounds, on ahy other, He did not, however, choose to vote for the inquiry, because 10,00 e others had dune the same as those implicated, Soli lie knew not why the weight should fall upon them. When abuse was found to exist, it was proper it should be checked, add a bill had been brought in for that purpose ; but was it lit to Wert an indivielual to make him a victim ? It hail, however, been mid by an lion. Baronet that this Bill had excited the risibility of every sensible man who had heard it; hut perhaps the Hon. Baronet would not allow any man to be sensible unless he did laugh at it. which savoured much of tyranny, but he thought the Bill of good practical eftect. As to the corrupt purchase of seats, it frequently happened that those who !hur dle:led acted as uprightly as any other ; but the question now was, whether the sales had not Krowa to a scandalous effect, and become a degradation to the countrv? Admitting that to be the case, it was surely a great inpistiee to stlect one resaou for • victim, while many oilier person* were guilty of the alone crime, many perhaps upon his aide of the (louse. It might be thought he was arguing for his friends or himself, hut lie could assure the - Houser, he never expended a single shilling to eifect his return to Falisimetit. Lord rotaxerosim • said, that the Honourable Gentleioris who had just sat down, had called the attention of the li.nr,e to subject. uuronnected with the question ; but the vote lie should give would be different from that of that Honourable Gentlemen. He would be glad to know from the Rigid Honourable Gentlemen opposite, since so much good was to he derived from their Bill, how it was that it had been so loog before they • • ~,.. • . • • . • had thou g ht p ro p er to introduces ;I=4ll' ... Were well assured of the efficacy of thilt . Bill; . but whether it would be effectual or not Ned no- • thing to do with the qbestion ; that Bit was to be earned into effect at the next election..five years hence, but was it to be argued corruption shotild exist in the House till thep ? Some months sluts', when he stated this corrnptiort to exist, it • • Was denied ; now it was perfectly undenernet. The Hououoibte Gentleman who had lest sat down, felt the present question pressing bard tutors W's political opponent, and would not w!sh even hiiWto becouse a sacrifice; hut the reason why he oaght to adopt another course was, that this is the flint time such practicer were brought to light. It had been alleged, that persons out of the House were willing to decry public chorea/till by unde fined charges; but ire A', forsooth, they are tot' ape ' citie. He wished to knot'', who were most likely to cry down public characterse—thow who brnealit forward charges against them, or those who slut the charge, were too notorious to be entered into? It soy vote of tire House was likely to promote 4 distru-t of public virtue, it would be that *Mehl should deny inquiry. After Mr. Sheplwaril had been found guilty of bribery, the ci • ••• nating Member, received the thanks of the HouiiC;. and the language of the Streaker upon that occasion was worthy to be recorded, it cousaterideil the exertions of the gentleman who brought for. ward the ruliject, and ranked him among toe best defenders of the country ; but the system of that day war different to the preseut, when every Mi nister carried on such practices with impunity. Those gentlemen who raised objections on tic score of Parliamentary Reform, he would refer to the question, old upon that pronounce their 'aye or no. That corruption existed to a great extent he had • been long induced to lwlieve, but never thought it so esteirsise as it was :sow allowed upon ull hands to be. It now appeared that ,Ministers of State brought in Mrituberr uurier particular stipu lations, upon agreements so estensive, that n gen tleman preferred giving rip his seat, rather tiadn rem ply ; arid lie could not conceive, unless the dread of fear was hanging over their head% but the Hoene would agree with the motion originally proposed. He should therefore certainly vote against its going to a Committee up stairs. Mr. WINDHAM Arid, that the observations which had fallen from the two Hon. Members who bad brat spoken, compelled him t say • few words er e the subject before the Heu.e. Ills Nobler hateful had stated the notoriety of atioi:es ; sisal the generality and aritiquity of them hall been men tioned. (.;roes abuses and corruptions had pre . wailed, and they had grown with the best timer of the country ; if they had so aroarn, it required rte. liberation before they were plucked out ; the effect should be conaidereJ, and they should be sure they were not tesnugout what was of irdiniteh• more im potholer.. It lied beets urged. that Parliameate ary Reform made no part of the present quer time We felt the impossibility of separating it from Parliamentary Reform ; and the proof that it involved that question was, that every one had alluded to it. He would not, take his • theory from what his Noble Friend had stated, but would take his theory' from the hest times of the constitution. Much had beau said Ilion the its. Nuance of property on the return of Member, to . Parliament; but the whole question we* this, that if the prevent representation was not to be settled numerically, but that the influence was to be annexed to property, whether no part of it was to go to Government But the question was not allow ed to stop here, they must go on to nnmerital re presentation, and this brought in the question of Parliatnentary Reform.—All great men were tra duced on the score of corruption, and they were to rescue themselves from popular clamour; bet corruption existed from the top to the bottom, and • he belieied there was a great deal more corrup. tion at bottom than at rop.—the deeper you go, the inure corruption is found, and the least impure part of the soil is the surface. if they *pokey( corrupuorn there were impure governors. 'Placer were offered to :stale, and a variety of embezzlements, but these were not by the Ministers themselves, but by their servants, by throe employed; and were Ministers to be blamed ? Who was there in private life but expects abuse ? Vt'hat private family but expected depredations? And if such Was to be expected in a private family, what was to be expected in %hit large family ? It was merely to charge on Govero went cheats, while they themselves are the cheated. So it was abuses existed abroad, in the East ladies. but were there irleanharities to becharged to the Go- , vernment? lie centended, that the luxuries had in creitied more than the wealth (tithe nation, and that the taxer would not have been fclt,betthat the man who kept a horse must now have a chaise, mid the man who kept a chaise most {Lye a carnage. Hr did not wish it to be understood. that he condemn ed tine system, but he thought while they could io crease their luxuries, they had no right to com plain of tunes. Lied A. Hewn:row said, that on a former right the objection was, that the queetton we, ton ge. and now that 'ditto. charge hail been.broe ght -it was too pointed, and that the Horse must be convinced of the same kind of traffic haring ex isted from time immemorial: was that a reason why there should not a stop be put to corruption • He thought it was of all others the reairou that • made Reform necessary. if the charges were dot true, the parties ac,aired would i.e acquitted with . honour; therefore the origin-al motion should }here his support. Mr. WILBERFORCE observed, he thuugt t the excuse of its being a general prectree, so absurd one, arid if the motion a the lion. Mo's'es was not • carried, the Hnuse would Vol support Its own dig nay.: As a moral roan, he wits couviticed there never was • time that the Governtrueit should be mare ambitious of gairmig the love of the people 'lino the present, for Arch reason he would give his aopport to the motiou. Mr. Secretary CANNING rnse mei saint—•' If I feel emedifflersity in giving my vote, it id beearrse I am clavier-cif that art eNsuirnoliner at the bar of this House reedit *illy leod to tine exculpirtion'ef . the. Hon. Pr• ~,,, or-ewe-4. But knowing the tors the public service would receive foam the want of ,ita. toheiruer serytioceizay c ory if they re k ev. i n u t t orarhy, I i irould ep be t „ O f t !, from their putai.• freuctioris. I know not a hat Parliamentary Reform has to do with Ili.. present .. 1 ' MI . a .1 .I 1 1