The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1810-04-19 00:00:00

not the ease, ■ny person •ho understood the rules of the lionise must see that discussion 11 , 611{ a violation of those rules. _ The SPEAKCR said, that when a question was put by any Member of that House to another, if any thing arose out of the answer to that question, vil,i4l had a tendency to occasion discuss um, the regular inininer of procee..htig was, by giving no tice of a motion upon the 'object. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that he had a right to make a *notion at that moment, and would avail himself of that right, in consequence of the intend ed adjournment of the House. The Right Hun. (;eutleritaii (Mr. Ryder) had spoken in a strangely iticunsistent manner. lie had not denied that a murder was committed : and yet he had refused to search out the guihy person. Ile had known that a jury had found a verdict of wilful murder against a porson unknown, and yet he disregarded that verdict, although given with true British impartia lity. It had been stated by a Noble Lord (Lord Ossulaton) that the murderer could be easily found out ; the House should then iintuediately proceed to an investigation ; the neglect of it would be un pardonable. The country loudly complaiired of the supineness, or rather the insensibility of the House upon this disastrous occasion. The military lay under a stigma, which it was most anxious to cast aside; awl, surely, the mode of wiping array the disgrace attached to that body, was by a trial by Jury, rather thou by declamatory speaking •in that House. He ackuowledged that the mili tary had acted with gore moderation, but the ge tend good conduct of cis brother soldiers, could not justify the horrid act committed by the un known miscreant. Justice ought to be done to the country, to the army, and to the des& Upon these grounds he would move, That a copy of the r.fict of the coroner's inquest, in the care of -- Pledg, he laid before the House." Tice SPEAKER having put the question— Mr. CANNING said, as the Hou. Grin. had referred to a motion made by him, far a preceiteut to his pre vent course of proceediug, he begged leave to suite the extreme difference there was between the tar) cases. The motion he had made without a previous notice, arose out of a question immediately b, foie the House, respecting their Speaker ; and, from the circutnstances attending that discussion. way %hat the !tinge called for unanimously on the occasion. —(lleor.)—The Hon. Gent. had certainly an RD.. dwit)l • right to make his present motion, without waxy . hut lie would vote against it merely on the ground that it was taking the HoUse by surprise. Mr. Wutratti.so said, that the importance of the pr 4 sent question was such, that no occasion ever leoi arisen, or could arise, which would render it more ~ . cessary to exercise the right possessed by a Member, of moviiig upon it without soy prelimi. nary step. Mr. W. Sum ro 'cowed in expreasing his old niou of the extreme importance of the present 'no tion, sod the occasion,• that existad of not suffering the observatiens which fell from the Right lion. Secretary, to pass unquestioned. He [sure testi mony to the excellent behaviour of the soldiery dur ing the late disturbances, which, from all lie had berm able to observe or collect, had been most temperate and moderate. But for the Secretary of State to put himself in the stead of a jury. and a Coroner's Inquest, and to say that hr had entered tato an investigation of facts, which it was their province to investigate, was going further than ever lie had expected to hear in that House. He could only impute it to the Right lion. Gentleman's be token unawares, and expressing his op . • rol ler h a stily in prin the 'object. A Coroner's Inquest hail delivered a verdict of •' wilful murder," and, however well the military in general miy , 6t have behaved, a jury was the only tribUnal that could acquit the individual unknown, charged with the commissiou of this crime, and a private examination at the Secretary of State's Office, could be of no avail. Ile wished tp learn from the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether he, being a Justice of the Peace, took the exami nations on thin subject on oath I But be that as it might, nut being in open court, the question of right or wrong could never thereby be determined. Mr. Secretary RYDER, in reply to the question put to him, stated, that mine of the examinations were before the Privy Council, on oath, and others were not. As for the idea that lea assertions were hastily made from the feeling of the moment, it was an excuse of which he would not avail himself. Thi• moo ter having been terminated, had for several days occupied the attention of Government, and his attention inure panic:oil irly. What he had •aid was therefore after mature deliberation, amid he would he ready at any futu►e time to defend the hue of conduct pursued by His Majesty's Advisers on this trying occasion. The lion. Gent. opposi'e (Mr. Whitbread), had entirely misrepresented what he . - said, he supposed from basing misunderstood him. The lion Gentleman imputed so him an 'memo's, that no inquiry had hien marl'.—The very reverse • was the truth ; cud he had justified the advice given to His Majesty. not to issue any Pr.relamit bon, on the grounds, that such a measure would be highly blameable. pending the Inquiry alts 'mely going on at this time. In the course of th:s Inquiry. no evidence had yet been adduced tend ing to prove that the troops had acted in any man ner which could call for reproof from any Member of the house. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to think it must absolutely follow. of necessity, that if Coroner's Inquest fouud a verdict of wilful murder. a Proclamation should be issued by the Crown.—No such thing was required. As for the motion itself, he was bound to oppose it on the ground stated by bis Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Can ning), that it was taking the House by surprise, and was contrary to the invariably acted upon, and eecoviized forms of the House. Lord Maiit.srom spoke in praise of the gene►al good conduct of the soldiers, but contended, that, from the Coroner's verdict, ii r a. evident, that one person among them hail cornesitted a hitch of the peace. Mr. W. SMITII pla i Mr. Alderman Count: wished the motion to be so shaped as to call fur further invesitgutsou into this matter, in which case it should have his cur. dt..l sisptsort. CitaNcEttnn of The ExcHvuutit amid, the Ilan. Cetstl , sisms sni.syo-ite (Mr. Whitbrood)'might t•rink ll , m.elF right 1:s lite roar,- he had pitrastrils and u..rd• A that he 'A 41 411. tillt.. as any other Metnher would have alone, emifurnsably to the usages of the !louse. But, iu his opinion, he was, on the contrary, most irregular ; fur even allowiug his right to lire.* a anotiou without any notice, yet surely the uiotinus of other Gentlemen, which stood on their books, were entailed to be first dis- cussed. ( lirar.) In tie pretwut too, there was no urgency, and the [notion. as fur as regarded any pruceediugs upon it, might us well be made utter the recess as this night. The truth was, the honourable Gentleman rus- to make a speech, contrary to the fowls of the House, and:being intertupted in this, he was determined to iiitro duce his speech in segue other way. But the Honourable faentlemitei ought to recollect, that ally other Member might do the same ali lie had, nod, under the disguise of askiiig a question. which was allowed by the, courte-y of the lio.se. might shape it instantly into • mutiun, take the Mouse by surprise, and procure the dismissal of any subject. before the House was prepared to go into it. On these groueds alone, he would oppose the motion. But was there nothing in the tinter, of the motion itself. which required some previous consideration? Were the House, without having time allowed them to thiuk on the subject, to be celled ~,,, at a moment's notice, to take all questions fruit before the juries, under whose judgment they were, before a decision could be come to, and thus become grand jurors upon cases of every deer ription ? Were they to discuss a verdict, before the ulterior proceedings thereon were concluded, rod exercise their judicial capa city. before any abuse in the proper tribunal could be stated, or supposed toemst Wear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman then re-stated what had Idlest from Mr. Secretary Ryder ; and contended, that there was nothing, in tone sir matter, which, en the first view, called on Government to issue a Proclalistion in consequence of the Coroner's ver dict. They had discovered nothing but proofs of moderation, and marked abstinence and forbear ance, on the part of the soldiers; and that it was front this very unfortunate alley, where the person was killed, that the most assault was made on the wets. whose horses could not *deeper to it. In this, not only stones sod brickbats, &c. were employed. but shots were tired, and one sol dier, in fact, severely %scrawled. Was this, then, a case which called on C'eacerament to interfere with the common judicial course. They did not, as the Honourable Gentlein In opposite would re present them as doing, interfere or stop others in the ordinary mode of proceediug ? They only stated, that, from the inquiry they had hitherto beets tilde to make, they saw not Mug to induce them to aid, by the offer of r public reward, those who were more directly inter•sted in bringing the matter to a trial. He called on an Hon. °direr upposae; it' he had tuts-stub the case with . re spect to the behaviour of the •431.11ErN, to correct him; but if he wee right, the (louse, by agreeing to the present motion, would be departing troin their own rules, which had ever hitherto been acted upon, to their o great convenieoce. and the fuitherauce of lust and temperate dermatitis. Captain AGAR being appealed to, would state I what fell under his own observation on this melon- C;;Oly occasion, on which it was painful to his feel ings to be called oil to speak, and equally lamented by the military and the civil powers. On the twits) , night, he was 9U duty near the sdot where the fatal accident occurred, mid could positively state, that previoua to a shot bring tired by the sol diers, they were repethdly fired at by the mob, dud one man was actually shot through the jaw bone. ( Hear, hear.) Even after that, they were not allused to load their pistols; there wire from 10 10 20 shots fired at them, before they returned a single shot. Hear. Lear.) Tins he could assert boils lus own lulu,. ledge. The Wis. (Mr. Whitbread) wars also mistaken in supposing the party of soldier. to be a rearguard. Tli-y were a detathisient of from 50 to 100 men when the firing took place. These were all the particulars he thought it necessary to state now, but would be prepared to go more mitneely into detail, should it he thought ',roper to discuss the pavatiod at any future period. Mr. Luce tuft acquitted the Noble Lord. who rat rose to ask a question on this subject, of having any wish to take the House by surprise. lie con demned very mach the introduction of iliamasatons, like the present, during the carrying on of Inquiry. They could not be beueticial ut soy point of view ; and the effect of such is conversation as this might be, to send a man to trial fur his life, under very partial and unfavourable impressions.—(Hear./ Lord Ossui.sroa explained. Mr. Witt raaeao rose to address the Howie, when lie was called to order by Mr. Causes, who, as the Hon. Gentleman stood so strictly nu his right. objected to his being again *milted to speak, as contrary to the forma of the House. The See AKRR decide(' that it was perfectly in order for the Aletuber, who originated any question, to deliver his sentiments a second time, after other Gentlemen hod offered their observations. Mr. WHITBREAD said. if the Hon. Gentleman cent) have succeeded in preventing his speaking now, he could easily have got over his objection, by having the previous question moved, on which he would lie entitled to speak. He knew nothing of the Noble Lord's questions till he came into the House. He never had accused the military of any misconduct ; on the contrary, from all be could learn on the subject. he believed they hod acted throughout with the utmost moderation, for which the country were greatly indebted to the Hon. Officer behind FIN' (Captain Apr). and some others, whom he could slime. With respect to his present motiou, he had been provoked to make it. for his own protection, when called to order and in tempted in the observations he was going to make. He hid a right to make it without previous notice; and, though an m occasion had never occurred to•hi before, to mill for the exercise of this right, lie had frequently contended for it, and could not now suffer the speech of the Right lion. Secretary to pass unnoticed, when this afforded him an oppor tunity of commenting upon it. He was accused of having mistustlerstood the Hglit lion. Secretary; but, with all •.; , 1t- deference to hun,l.e was of opinion that his scrim.' 411 - 1 . 01 matt risil , y itfr•rent from Iris first. Ile us.* c.iiled usi ihsit Right lion. Crii. Oman, if he knew, to tell them who the soldier r was that fired the fatal shot, that he taught be sent to trial on the Coroner's verdict, stliich rendered it uationaisary to have recourse to a Grand Jury.— The llou. Gentleman then adverted to. the different verdicts given isi the City and in Westminster; the one of justifiable homicide. the other of wilful murder; and argued that'there was uo parallel be tweeu the cases. It might torn out that the man was unknown ; but whatever might be the result, he would not withdraw his motion. Mr. TAYLOR rose to speak to facts within his own knowledge.—On Saturday night, he was coin ing down Suckville-street, in the carriage of a No ble Friend of his ;—the carriage was stopped by the mihtars ; and he was informed, that orders had been given to fire on the mob, which would render it dangerous for him to proceed any further. Af ter this, he heard pistols tired; which, from the sound, he judged to be loaded only with powder. He was going to the opera,—(a largh,) and pro ceeded, when a shot *as fired from a window ; upon which, not thinking he could do any good, he ran down the alley as fast as he could.—/Much laugh ter.)—fie spoke highly in Lennie of the good von . duct of the soldieiy, and advised the individual to surrender himself to trial, as he was sure be would be acquitted. Captain AGAR stated, that none of the Ministers could know who the man was that fired the shot. The man could not know it himself. for be could take upon him to assert that several shots were fired into the alley at the saint momeut, under the direction of the Lied Magistrate. This he thought might induce the Hon. Gentleman to withdraw has motion. The question being put, the motion was negatived without a division. DUKE Or CUMBERLAND. Mr. LT:reel:roe held in his hand a petition from an Officer in the 15th light dragoons, com plaining of tyranny and oppression, On the part of the Colonel of that regiment, his Royal nightie's the Duke of Cumberland. The petitioner had in vain attempted to obtain redress through the usual and legal channel ; and, in his case, the Com mander-in-Ober, iu direct violation of one of the Articles of War, under which the army was go vented, had refused to transmit his representations to the King. It was not his intention• to move the further consideration of the contents of this peti tion till a few days after the Isulidays. Then, it was far from his wish to put the [louse in the muta tion of a military tribunal, but merely to move for an Address to His Majesty, to compel hi• Officers to anend to the laws framed for their Govern ment. After this, he would acquiesce in any mode of proceeding the House thought most consisteut with their forms, and the merits of the case. General CRAUFURD was of opinion that the pe tition could slot be received, as it would afford a most dangerous precedent to the army. As for the article of war alluded to, it was inter under stood to be imperative raid positively obligatory on the Commsnder-in•Chief. If it were so, at would give nse to greet confusion, and on ever► maginary. grievance of officers being ou dispoora of. there would be3o or 40 Courts-Martial sod Courts of In quiry in a month, utterly subversive of all snilitnry di.cipliite, and ruinous to the sruiy. it was, there fore, necessary that the Commander-in-Chief should have a discretionary power to resist, in his own person. all such nugatory applications as this wits. He would pledge himself to prove that the complaint of this Officer was ant only nugatory, bat vexatious.; and, like many other cases of cons plata, procerdert from our of the usual remiss Officer* of the Regiment against hi*Colotel. Mr. Wnernastau, to order. The question was upon bnuging up the petition, end it was out of orde► to enter Wpm' a dawn. l.f the petition it fell; with which, not yet being• before the House, Members were itisacquaiwied. General CILAVVOID said, he would abstain from dial, and oppose the receiving of the petition, on the broad ground of the inexpediency of interined din% with proruutiuiis in the army, which sta. put of the prerogative of the Crows. It would he wresting from the Crown the ininmand of the army, and de stroying that discipline and subordinatiou which was its attesigth, mid the result of unity of com mand. They 'night take stint her step. and promed still further, by taking the command of the army on themselves, ditirling it into parties and factions, looking to this or that set of n.en in the House for support. By this means they would have what he trusted they should never again see in this country ; a petitioning Parliainentail *tiny. thrown into irre gular convulsions, subversive of its welfare, and tending to throw the epuntry into a state of anarchy and confusion. Under these circumstances, be gave his decided opposition to the motion. Mr. WHITISIMAD COUVIO.ted of the Hon. Gen tleman's going into the petite:v.. to ►hew grounds for rejecting its bring read. He stated the prece dents of the 11011,e ititerferiag its military questions in the imtance of the promotion of Lord Burg hersh, and the petition from Colo•iel Cochrane Johnston, presented by him in 1806, which was a case exactly similar • to the present.—From there being not JO or 40 applications (indeed not even one) in consequence of the House receiving these, lie contended that the fears of the gallant Genres! on this bead were imaginary. and that this petitiop might be received without injury to the service.— With the gallant General he agreed in theory, that nothing could be more dangerons than tot eke the command of the army from the Crown—Lot thi. was not to do so. The discipline of the army de pended on prosl justice being done from the, drum• mer to the General. The soldier complained, when sggrieved. to the non-commissioned officer—the min-mmmiseinned officer to the officer, and so on by gradatnes till it came to the Comineutler-in. Chief, who eat hound, by the article of war alluded to, to lay the matter before the King...Vete the lion. Gentl►man read the article in question, which bore him nit in his description of it.j—There was no option left to the Commandev-in-Lhii f; he yetis to determine and rganrt to the King. not to-deter mine and decide. From thi- it appeared. that Sir David Dmida. had olethileted the goldiere legal reee-a hi the King, awl refic-4.1 tar obey the order by which he ought to have been guided. The Ilonotireble Geoeral might say. that Cawain Foe. knit ' s grievances were imaginary ; rant Fosl.et:, who felt it. was the ben indi t e where the shoe 'cliched him- And so different an istipieteCon might be made on the minds of different men, by Ist same eiteutunlanect, that to hint at aerate-I so for were they front being irnatenary, th ey w ., r, grievances of toe itio4 erynu4 notate. b ut , h 4 proof of their bring imaginary, %s r . what hr el in l„ longed the lion. Gentleman to ; and, for that p ut . pose, it was neeetwiry th-y should be put i n p m .. session of the Petition. The lloirourable G elle . ral had gone Ftlii tuntier, and asserted, these complainta were involute; and v. tattoos yet what would lie gay to the fact, that th e Commander-in-Chief had tittered a majority i n it . other regiment, to the very person guilty of b ei „ K . ing such frivolowi and vexatious charges against his Colonel. lie also hinted that Captain Foskei, had not dime his du y ; but there were testimonial. to the contrary, and one of the pipwanard !dinned of was, that he was prevented doing la. duly abroad in the turn to which be was retake, as senior olliccr of the regiment. But if all that was urged against him wt re trite. then Sir Dios! Donnas was the more to blame wafer to nialtesuch a 'NMI , a field-officer, mud therehy exteuil hna sphere of mischief in the sedition', pracncto nit which he was accused. To prevent the coin iihiois in the army, dreaded by the lion. Gvi•oral, th e lust way was to do justice. Mr. M. Surto N use of opinion, that no ill ect:-. —.— sequence would result from receiving the petition. He entered into ndefetiee of toe cowls:ct of the Cominandrr-in-Chief, who. in acting isshtl;47l done. had complied with triu understood rad 1.,- variably followed construction of the struck o f qp, alludeti to. That article eutilid not be thotizht im perative in every instance, mid in fact, it had er,r been known and underAtotiti by the whole artily to apply, in that 10 . 116 r, only to pe4 notary cotapluno,, As lwr the otter of the toty,trit%, an far was Sir D. Loud„ to bi, itto ., i t was 11. high demonstrouio of private regard, and a frieiw:ly wish to serve the b.st interests of the individual to whom be gave the advice. General Loser opposed receiving the petifi nn . on the ground (Wits being an infringement ou the prerogative of the Crown. A Mertilwr. whose wanie was unknown to us, fol lowed on the same toide. Mr. LOCKHART alma opposed the petition; NO re. ceiving petitions frthli the tinny would.in his n.i trod to be highly injurious to its irritate end effici ency. Thellouse ought net to be applies to but when there was no other source of redress op.a to the subject. In the prest at instance. he had nut male up his mind, whether a Court of Law would unt have afforded relief against the Commander-in- Chief, for not obeyn ig au article of war cote:cid by an officer to he to his injury. Mr. LETTELTOM made IA few remarks in replv to the precediug speakers. The Conimender-in•Chirt, in his simmer to Captain Foskett's had stated no grounds for his . refusal to submit the complaint ti His Majesty. He lied tuksu ti.e s•ruight.lorwarti official course, and this being .hat te,oinst him, he now applied to that House a ' h i , only resource. It sees, therefore, not only due In the petibwier, but it was necessary to clear up the character of the. Must.' Person charged with these oppressions, to receive the petition, and hog the whole matter openly investigated and cbsrus....l. It would be. highly improver to irate a Prince of the lihiod liable to obscure surpicions of 4nevolo tyranny. and it would be'highly ia.proper to slut their gates upon a lirttish subject, cumptaining ..1 injury, and c:aiming from them that justice, of which he was elsewhere deprived Mr. M. ScTroN, cud (general LOFT, severiliy explained. Mr. Secretary Henan defended Sir D. Dumb,. from every eherge, arid stated, that the tovarishle construction of the articleof war, had been precisely laid down by lis flow Friend IM. Suttsni.j Le had no objection to receiving the petition. The queation wag then put mud carried. The petition 1.1,•-ing,brtnittlit up, was read by the Clerk. It was jointed, the petition of Caption Henry Foakett, of the 15th Light Merlons. It colipleined of a junior officers being loom*" over the head of the Petitioner, coming to the rules of the.sersice. Also, of his bring left at home on the recruiting eeiviee, though senior Captain ii the regiment, when the regiment went to Portugal. It also enumerated other grievances. such a- 1101 being promoted, &e. and concluded with • drt Wed account of the Petitioner's application for redress to the Comnisoder-M.Chief, as stated by Mr. Lytteltnn. and Mr. W hitbreed. On the motion fur its being laid on the table, Sir fl. Moseciontar objected to this; 114 the Petition was a complaint for not being promoted. according to the expectations of the individual. the Majesty bad a right to promote whom he thought tit ; and it would be improper fur the House to interfere. The person promoted met Captain Foskett, was not a junior, but a senior Of ficer to huts. The reason why ho was not pent sith the regiment to Portugal was, because h., trot p was the worst M the regiment, and thetai're olic fittest to be left on the recruitisig service. When the House knew the cause of his not being mi ri puny promoted as he expected, they would atqw race in the justice of hi. Colonel. The etulv sks this :—Coptain Foskett, an old officer, had tro" out as a 'mond in a duel, w th two boy s of Id anti 17 years of age, and suffered them to try in w ird, r each other, by firing no fewer than six stint'. Ir . was great grace and indulgence in t he Duke o; t7wasberland, that this was wowed over at the um. ; for had it heen reported to His Majeety, Captain roakett's name would have been struck U" of the Army List. Mr. 11 NITIRLAD said, be had not eov knoieled:e. and Dryer had heard any thing of Cept...Friekett, tit what lie had heard from km Hots. Friend. H- IsP" 1 . 1 misdeed. if that was true, which was stated by !krt. (lent lemenopposite, his name 11r -erred to be .1.11. k Or the military list, he ought not to bare bee "' "t -feted Aloynny in another regimen*. Ile i ' sd fared to produce ree. in m e nthitions, in lotions Ins character, as an officer, and th• •11' ''''' snitcher sitlen'sl to elite. they 41 Dot 1 "" credi t . 1 / 1 “ler these considsrationw he mold 1. 4 owe en objection to the petition being bed sill t'' tuft.. . General Patrrs thought it was highly inticro'' that tlir Gown. atowild intrilere. G. Irina I,liliTl7o could tint parry:se • 110 1 • r.inwe of rn.,.s.i.ii h..tht., wa• on tkot:.• " 1 ' j woof. offierr Iw log tenant In rank i'""• The CIIA NI I I son of the Fit q: r N a. "' di d 'l'4 ihtul any logretS, eat moult c awe (row she Pell thry C•' there WI war tru there WI bei"g 111 when th put be u a &acre duel, pot be V where tl ineition, his vr ri o il, red I no did &tido. Gitrd hr t. tn. prel The Cc octopl! ~u. 4I i, la . to tl coved, be laid Mr. race w by in at hi• c tug he sud in Mild di, ha/aim Mr. make 1 tointy, Tbetr 1 hccaub like rsi lii IBA dist .e troviei I )11` .. reg "Ihr should Mr. %Ott re.A a Chat tern. but Butt body aily I fr,ru. kW' s 'lle of hel wa•, la.