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F pithnents on it when on a fouraserittemelem he had hiehe honour • aidress their Lordships ; therefore, he would not accompany the petition with any observations of his own. The Noble Lord then presented petitions from the Roman Catholics of the united sashes of Imo's, Lemsskera, and another in the county of Li mer ick; from the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Dunmanway ; from those of Trimoleague, from those of Youghal, and from those or B a ntry ,in the county of Cork ; also from Protestant s an d g a min Catholics of the parish of St. James, Dublin; and from Kenmore, in the county of Kerry. In presenting a petition from :be Roman Catholics of the city and county of Cork, the Nulls Lord observed, that be should not do his duty if he did not cal! the attention of the House to a document so important. The signs.. tuns to all the petitions he had presented were highly respectable, but this in psni,ular was so numerously as well as respectably signed, and more from a county of so much importance, that he felt it necessary, in presenting it, to draw their Lordships' particular notice to it. It echoed the universal sentiment, that the Catholic Association had been of the highest benefit to the country; and it humbly prayed that their Lordships, in their wisdom, would reject the Da now before the House for the suppression of the Catholic Association.—. The petition was then laid on the table. The Duke of DLVONSIIIRE presented petitions of a similar nature from the city and county of Waterford. most respectably and numerously signed ; from the Rom a n Cat.wilice of Dungarron, in the county of V. aterford ; and from the town of Bandon, in the county of Cork.—Laid on the table. Lord HOLLAND, .in presenting a petition of a similar nature from the united parishes of St. John and St. Nicholas, in the sty of Dublin. observed that it would have been much more nu. merously signed if melte time had been given, or if it had been known that so much time would have been allowed. As it was, loaner, the petition contained a great many names, although it Lv far signature no more than two hours.—Laid on the table. The Duke of LEI NSTER presented similar petitions from the tutu% of Killorten, and another parish in the county of Kilkenny, It a ;Tam three parishes in the county of Kildare.—Laid on the table. Similar retitlorts were presented by the Marquis of DowIfSHINE, from twt parishes in the county of Ferman/ITh ; by Lord CLEF* PEW, front the parish of St. Paul, in the city of Dublin t by the' marquis of I.Alevraww; faun the united parishes of St. Mary. St. (Wrote, and Si. Tbeenen. In the city of Dublin ; by the grai er b*,,ye.ny, from he + i/A/1601 In the county of Meath ; and by Lard ELLE1(11010t74111, from two parishes in the county of Kerry. The petitions were laid on the table. COUNTER PETITIONS. - ....„.—. The Earl of BEC3I - Oliiiresented a petition from the county sad_ city of Tyrone, foe the suppression of the Catholic A ss oci a ti on . Lord OORT promoted a similar petition from the county and at of Dublin, signed by 2,000 persons. Laid on the table. ORANGE PETITION, lord KENYON presented a petition from certain Protestants in Ireland, members of the Orange Associations in that country. The Noble Lard stated, that they conceived themselves greatly aggrieved by the calumnies that had been sent forth against them, and they prayed to be heard before a Committee of the House, in order so prove the falsehood of the charges that had been made soiost thetas. They stated, that they had been enlisted at a period who Ireland was in very imminent danger, and that very high authorities, both in England and in Ireland., had expressed the greaten satisfaction at the course they had unitimily pursued. 1 ' They honed ib refore their Lordships, before ordships, they included them in fee till now before the House, would inquire into the nature and she condone of their body. Their Lordships would recollect that some tin; .tir.ce an Act tens passed fur the suppression of certain • mete-es, and other acts connected with those Orange Associations. They h.ul, with t h e proper an d man l y fee li ng they had always me ads:med. immediately bowed to the laws and submitted. They thotoet it hard. however. that they should be included in a Bill for pamog down a Society whose conduct was so notorious es that of the Catholic Association, which Bill had already pessed the 1 oth.r nous• setae was now before their Lordships. They enro l:4.llml that they should be thus considered as culprits, after having loam sad so substantially proved their truth and loyalty. and _they eumoted to he heard against such decision. They stated that .iiOT had frequently received the thanks of the highest authorities in tne country for their useful exertions--among others, one Lord lianienant and two Generals cummailding in Ireland. They con ',trio then:fore, they bad reason to complain, that a body also ratan as they were, not for the purpose of altering. but for the Pareose of supportieg the laws, should be treated in a manner r , radar to those w h ose designs and whose conduct were so opposite Li:heirs. Tiicy did not petition to be heard by Counsel at the bar, :!try only asked to he allowed to be heard in their defence before a ( sq.:llium or the Ilona : . He (the Noble Lord) should therefore i 4 mo re . ... lil tiro the potition b e refined to the Committee of Inquiry .0 the Stat e o f I re l and. ''.f ti: . t e fl u : pa n l ittifu 1 i ' l ignhrlcva read. It the i Oranige L ak e I : 4,r a: l ... h at:Lc tune of the Irish rebellion they reviewed wow men ; r 2 , it they had associated at a period when the principles of the ~n Revolution were subverting the attar and the throne—root the, woe stilling to have all their books and papers, and documents 'f eseo kind eanniined by their Lordships--and that they were grievously aspers-d, but innocent men. laird Ist: i\ VON then moved, that the petition be referred to the leranittiee el Inquiry into the State of Ireland .—O rdered. WISH lI,LEISAL ASSOCIATIONS. The Earl of CARNARVON rose to present a petition, and 7astaterrupted by the Earl of LIVERPOOL, who requested his 'steak:tis permission first to move the reading of the Order of The Earl of l i IVERPO OL having moved the reading of the ihder of the Day— The l Earl of CA RNA RVON presented a p e tition from certain : , !1 Rowan Ca:holies, members of the Catholic Deputation, pray ` ~ their Lordships would not pass the Bill for the suppression • . t•••.':an Cwtholic Association, and that they might be heard . t. at the bar of the Hou s e. H e would move that the pe „ , • read, and in so doing, he would ask the Noble Earl oppo . .ii were prepared to accede to that portion of the prayer of Pe!itice which applied for lease to be heard at the bar of the ;.' -'er If he were so prepared, then he (Lord Cameroon) would trouble their Lordships eith any observation ; but if the con -7 Were the ease, then he should feel it his duty to intrude upon C•F Lordships' time, while he stated the reasons why he thought • : P ttltioncrs entitled t o h ave t h e i r prayer gra n te d t h em . . , ril Earl of LIVERPOOL—The petition had better be first ~.I no petition from eertrin Irish Catholic members of the Irish r a l ts Deputation was then read. lhe Esil of LIVERPOOL said, that as the Noble Lord (Car ''"on) !ad put so pointed a question to him es to whether he were : ared or not to hear Counsel against the Bill for suppressing .. • -•'•; A wloations in Ireland. h e h a d no difficulty in telling that .. '•',, I , rO dot he considered the nature of the BM to be such as i...,t.i,erittlie t h e pet i t i oners to be heard against it. Ile felt it his 1 , I . : - :ore, t o oppose the prayer of the petition. '' l'a' of t..tRNA RYON said, that after the observation of t . • ~;title liol lie felt it his duty shortly, as shortly as he could, '....-j q:' , -, the House on the anbiect of the petition he had presented. 't ca. th-re w ere any b ody of people claiming justly . to be beard . , ''ins ` ( at the bar of the House, it was the petitioners; their ti..: Tii a r r so iitecing.and were each, as, if they ought to be respect . __ or iiiere, ou g h t to be respected by the highest tribunal in these ",a 1, • it the principle of national rights were respected in that .ous'• ;he House was bound ter hear the petitioners against that t. of which they so grievously and so joie'' , complained. The . 1 +/Isnot a measure of an accidental nature, but was the measure ),lARCH 4, 1826. .i.:/ I ~."I'l.-u-a, .. "•= - - - ~ • 04 - ' . • . - 7 1. 1 ; C._ -/).-, .--- -1" - 4 _, 1 4 4,, , ' -7 at I_ -1,--. -..--- -16 " /.. •••••• - • t ••,"" ...-G-. e_.-c- le ,r .. -. 1" ';',44, 1 ‘ .: sp y '. -' - 'or- . , - 0 1 4. s 1 1/ . s - 7-..• .., • • . . •,, ~ , 1 , I proym - », • ~ ,• ; -, . • -. . .--, r • JO - • . •''; i . , • j az . . • .. . . . .... # ') %. 1 . 11 ~.. it .• I WI we t imil 1 t i '. A , ' 4 41 tir — 1 tr. :Al -AM 4 . • , ----, .4.. - •••, ". , - -• i 1, ~\ . • • . i .. ~ A mmimmommommainemor `lll22mNimmo. o - - - '1.112r1.16' ceedings consistent with the law of - this country, becantio his opi. nion sou, that if there existed in England such a body as this Catholic Association, overruling or attempting to overrule the Parliament upon important matters of State, upon which Perlis. meat alone could and ought to legislate, and to legislate with free dom' that body would not be a legal body. It had been said that this Association would not come under the Cunrentiiits Act, be. cause the persons who formed it were not delegated by the people to act in convention upon matters of State. But he begged to knew what was the difference between them? It was true then wee no antecedent delegation on thz: part of the poops: but there was a subsequent a p probation of their acts, and the e vil was the same whether such Body had been originally delegated, or subse quently approved by Ouse whom they at least pretended to repre sent--.[An observation yea here made by some Noble Lord, which dist not reach us I—He begged to assure Noble Lords that such irterruptions had no eti'ect upon him, unless indeed it were to put him in possession of the arguments intended to be used against him, and thereby induce him to go more at large into the question. If this Bill "insd stated fur its object the putting down the Roman Catholic Association ' he was fan to conks' that lie should hare liked it better; because undoubtedly . its object was to put dews the-Annan Osbohc 'Akiociation, if its osonlatet was such as the Bill described ' - and provided against. He did not at the same time mean to say that there was any news. city for the object beings° stated. He retneinhned that at a. former peeled. when he woe in the House of enmniona, he introduced cer. thin Bills for putting down the Societies than in existents,. sod in fps BUle htsdatt-ilpreiwate the wasseswer. dlet3othwieol winch they wereihtended to put down. If this had been his BM, he shoidd have pursued the lame course. The object of the measure was to continue the Convention Act in force. The meaning of the first clause was t that where there had not been antecedent delegation, bat where individuals had pursued the same conduct and esercised the same rule and government over the people as if there bad been antecedent delegation, the provisions of the Convention Act should be enforeced. Now, if it were true that this Convention had assumed to itself a representative character—if it were true that they had gone the length of taxing the people—he said of tax ing the people, because that was to interfere with the prerogative of the Crown and the privileges of Parliament—if it were true that they had exercised an influence and control over the administration of justice, which was not to be endured in any country, then he contended that the same mischief had been committed as if they were a Convention delegated by the people. If the Mimeo Catholic Association, or any other body, were permitted to have a control over the proceedings of Courts of Justice, with six millions of people to aid them, what was to prevent the Protestants from forming similar associations, and then where would they knd the possibility of obtaining justice, when no man could be placed in the jury or witness box, who could not be challenged for something which incapacitated him from discharging his duty ? Was it not enough, therefore, that they should act upon these , general principles, and pose a measure which had for its object only to carry into effect the intentions of the Convention Act? There was no special necessity for hearing any parties in this case. ' The general rule was, that no man could be heard against a measure without having some particular interest ir. it. There were Calm in which the House had, and he thought very laudably, given way ; but that did not effect the general rule. In opposition to the argu ments of the Noble Earl, he called to the recollection of their Lordship , that there were eases in which the urge ley of the danger rendered delay inlisnsible, and Bills were passed through all their stages in one day, inflicting the heaviest punishment upon in dividuals. In other cases the danger might be so great as not to allow time for the usual deliberations--where if the least delay were permuted, it would be impossible to meet the danger before it be. came realised. This, then, was a case in which they ought to ad , t the general rule, and not delay a measure which was imperiously called for, if what it stated did apply to the conduct of the Roman Catholic Association; and if it did not, then the Bill would not affect them. If its statements were true, then their Lordships ought to support the Bill; for if these parties bad renewed the state of things intended to be suppressed by the Convention Act, the Bill ought to pass to enforce the intentions of that measure. For these reasons, and thinking that Parliament had no right to make an exception of the general rule in this case, he should oppose the motion. •• • • • . Prrne 74114 Lord HOLLAND said, he not only believed that this was not the Noble Earl's Bill, but very strongly suspected diet he had never read It. He ( Lord Holland) had heard with consternation the assertion of the Noble and Learned Earl, that the existence of the Catholic Association might be according to law in Ireland, but that it was not according to law in England. But the Noble and Learned Lord atlirwards explained himself by adding, that the Catholic Association attempted to overrule Parlisment. But if they did so. Parliament had as much power id one country as the other ; and why did they not proceed by some other comae than that of legislations Upon the argument respecting the hearing of Courted, be wished to elferl few words. All thedulamation of the Noble Earl opposite Lead it -about else 9nte ll enreinf r g7liarnent, ad bee: put on tr One aide by t e correction of the Noble and Learned Lord, who told them that there were exceptions to the general rule ; that parties had been oereeionally heard ; and yet not much inconvemenoe had reeitittel from it; and their Lordships had proceeded with the hese:en of Parliament as usual. But if the stream of pre cedens ran all one we and that against hearing Counsel at their Lordships' tar, he should say, that even then they ought to take the plain, direct, and honest course, and hear these petitioners before they were condemned and punished. Ile eared nothing for precedents in opposition to principle ; but if he were to use them for the present argument, he could show, that whatever they might be in that or the other House, in the Parliament of Ireland the stream of precedents ran all in favour of hearing the petitioner*. Without detaining the House while he went into the details of those precedents, he would merely state, that Sir Theobald Butler. Counsellor Malone, and Sit Stephen Rice, were heard by the Parliament of Ireland against the very penal laws which this Catholic Association were endeavouring to get repealed, and in support of the Treaty of limerick. He thought the Noble and Loused Lord was =tided to credit for stating that he wished the name of the Catholic Association had been mentioned in the Bill. Poe the Noble Earl opposite (Liver pool) he felt, as the Noble Earl knew, a great private friendship, and high respect for his privateeharacterand conduct, which he believed to be incapable of any . mean artifice. But they were now dealing with the interests and rights of millions and millions, and lie must protest against the argument, that they were not to be heard because the Catholic Association were not named in the BilL Either this was good for tee Noble Earl's argument, or it was not; and if it was, why did he call upon their Lordships to legislate upon the notoriety of the proceedings of that body y He (Lord Holland) professed to entertain a high opinion of the talents and learning of the learned gentleman who would in all probability have appeared at the bee on behalf of the people of Ireland, and he thought e. pos sible that the considerable talent and eloquence which he possessed might have had some influence on their Lordships' minds. But if he possessed the genius of that orator whose eloquence shook Greece to the centre. and the worst designs that could be imputed to him, 'not the eloquence of a Demosthenes, with the intention of a Candice, could enable him to do so much harm to the character of Parliament, as they were inflicting upon themselves by the passing of this Bill. He declared, that if he were an incendiary in Ireland, and wished to deluge that country in blood, and to revive all the worst scenes of her history, he should rejoice in being sent away from that bar unheard and insulted. Upon all the great principles of impartial and substantial justice, and upon every feel ing of honour, he called upon their Lordships not to refuse the prayer of the petitioners. If they were determined to pass the measure, let them at least impress the people of Ireland with the I belief that they were easy, indulgent, kind, and generous ; and let them not fortify themselves behind the subterfuge of its being a general measure for the purpose of depriving that people of the first right of freemen—not to be condemned before they were heard. Earl DARNLEY supported the prayer of the petition, and said that their Lordships were bound to comply with it before they could be justified in passing the BiU. Ile trusted the time was not fax distant when the real interests of the empire would be consulted by the Legislature; and that measure, which could alone secure them. be granted to the Catholics of Ireland. He took that opportunity of protesting against the Bill about to come under their Lordships' discussion. The House then divided, and the numbers were . Contents . . . . . 23 I Not ('onterits . . . . ID Majority against hearing Counsel SECOND RhADINO OF THE BILL. When we re-entered the House we found steps witiebmight be 11COMOoly le cirri these mamitros ions MVO It was ammo me the most ttral rights of the people of the esn Meg, e was prepared to Amoy that any assembly Jared ant ants. thessight Ito petition, but to bola permanent akteass, and to sate 4//10 fw consideration every ease 411 M came before it which ondermok ii superintend justice, whether Justly or net he would not as, 4 but be that as it might, any cootroul ever the tulatilitisuation afjamice, ha must say. was inconsietaut with the principles of any motion. It max tm pomade taloa' without suspiciaa at the circumstances under which the Ataocietion had been estalrliahod. 'Phc people of Woad might be rff•endeil oith the refusal of the remainder of We Ptivaqlco which they claimed ea /Ukiah subjects. They might couto sal explain their comPisint, but could any body that knows what bas been done think they ought) in the *aunt of the last few tears more has been done for die good, police, prosperity, and happiness of I•eland, than had been dime for teatimes before. The elide of the revenue department had been reformed; toe taxon had been reduced, England had eaten upon herself she debt of Ireland 4 and she was, he would rentom to tab iota lazed than cry country in Europe. In addition to all this, the adniinistrai ion of justice has been corrected, the magistracy had been checked by the establish aunt of pump ervoions--these were the benefits bestowed by Eng , land. Theirstiordshlps would howetier see, that iu the midst Mall this prosperity, avowed and admitted by all partite, this Aided"- tido ,ossunted a•chsraotar touch more important anti ice . noting those it would have held in time of distress. It has evaded the Ctr , settion Act, sad the evils of delegation exist without there per}:apt lciao _ rani lotion. He moold Dot wawa maaltdorater cat-thar, time, he did not inttnd to tenter into a aiscassion of the parti cular laps alleged agaitiat the Association. The rtitson wlip he would not was, that be believed the AstiOCitttaoll to be cc-rithuted in the same manner in which others, under similar circa"- *felt. would be. Ilia objection was, that it mold not exist) wi'Lioul the evil the Convention Act intended to put doom. -itisanp=anse of language was neutrally to be expected at these meetings. He would not dwell upon the proceedings of the Association. not the resolutions which had been passed there, which could rot pooliI) 1 1 hare bad any other effect than to tr.:arms:de the evils of - t he leountry. It might be thought by the Catholics to he 'he beetle& of enforcing their claims; and if they limited themselves:to Gott alone it would be well ; bat it did tot so hunt itself, it had ether objects besides that question. He had healed that it wakasid that one of the members of that 4ssociation had had a cot muctitatimi made to him by *certain person who was not named, that lithe Association would be satisfied with tlie cession of the Catholic claims, it should be granted them. This person was anawered that that would not satiety them ' • so that the Horton might perceive that even if the measure of Catholic Emancipation wcrp carried, the Association would still have some other object in 'kw. He would defy any Noble Lord to say that such an Associa tion ever existed before, if they looked to it in every point of view. lie would now come to :moodier important point. Ws contra ;cation was called the Roman Catholic Rent ; now this was a term of their own. lie thought thit the term, Rent, itself implied obligation ; which of itself did airily with the idea of a voluntary contribution. The idea of its being voluntary in a country to di vided between two factions, like Ireland, was ridiculous. They must remember it was collected by the Catholic Clergy. and they all knew the relation which subsisted between a priest Radius flock, too well to think of its being revolutionary, although A might be in many cases. lie would appeal to any one who had visited the country to say wit:tiler it was now not in a mate of alarm. ,He must contend that it was not the Association that was the case of the tranquillity ; but supposing it was, if it had power to =lsmael@ tranquillity of the country. it also bad power to disturb it. 4 Haar.) Such a power, he thought, ought not to he in the bands of any So ciety. There was a litilpassed in 1796, which a Learned Lien:Ze man showed bow it might he evaded, and yet it was not evaded. He was ready to say that if this measure did not pare, counter Associations would - be formed, which, from the wealth and .in fluence of the Protestants, aril the number of the Catholics, would cause the greatest confusion. (Hear, hear, hear.) A. Noble Friend of his (the Lord Chancellor) had wished the Am elation to be specifically named In the Bill; perhaps at first sight he himself might wish it also; but when he came to coraler. he must say he thought it b a t as it stood, as it was the intention o' the Bill to put down all Associations. The Noble Lord coriclutted by moving the second reading of the Bill. Lord KlNG—When this nal should hare passed into a law we shall make the resemblance still more etact between Irtlind and hell; for what can be more fiend-like than the conduct of thLa country towards Ireland ? They had been told that the conflict of Government had been kind and cow:latent, and that justice hal been impartially administered. lie would tell thou., that is the county of Tipper-ry, in 1823, no less than 497 commitment* took placennder the Insurrection Act; of these 49/, 4172 were iequit, ted. In all Ireland, he believed, that there had been 1707 1 corn ; mitmants, and out of the whole 4351 had teen" acqui . ted. /rut was truly impartial haministration of justice. TIM A - s.tltistion ti gis ho o ta ie r r aprowatted art ortwarrantabli 4141 , et *MO 'Timm had let V, eliapti of a roi l limo before that Howse that very niet. n ease in whtes`t they 1,.1 interfered. He alluded to the aiiining • mandamus from the, Court of King's Bench to admit three isidividuals to bten%;.t m=7 beta of the Corpocation of Dublin. Was this, he would a , k, an unwarrantable Intertereoce ? The /nutrias of pahtleal tights Ir the security of civil rights. (Hear.) Lord TEYNFiAM supported the Biil, but vas N?udible beksi the bar. Lord GROSVENOR,—If Lard Wellesley had tecemmended that measure, as it was said, he was sure he had riot done it with out accompanying it with some plan of melioration. The name of Rent, which bas been complained of, would have been exactly the same thieg if it had been called 'what it was, viz. a free gilt. The Roman Catholics complained of oppression and injury sus. tained from the Orange party in Ireland. They suited murders tc have been committed by that body upon numerous individualt of their persuasion, withoet the murderers having been brought tq justice. Without pronotincing any opinion upon done stateineuts, he did think the conduct of the Catholic Association of a juin* able and constitutional nature. They collected money to be ap e plied in the support of individuals of their body, who wets from poverty unable to bring their wrongs into a court of justice. 'And they had been told be the Judges themselves from the Bench, that they had remised ttieir power in a moderate and 'ennititutional manner. Did this look like illegality in die Association ? . Their proceedings had been open to the world. Reporters had been ad mitted to their meetings, deputed by the Government itself. There had been as attempt made to assail an individual fore ;risiors said to have been uttered by hint at one of their Medi . But in what manner hail that attempt succeeded ? Had ho been pu nished ? had he been convicted ? hed he been even brought to trial 2 No. Failing in that attempt, the enemies of the Astheistion bed put their hand upon a casual expression in a tarty long addles' tor the purpose of attaching a hostile purpose le tha .4atheistioe. There ens a subject of great importance, and worthy the alma- Lion of the House, to ancatain to what extent groundless preju dices existed against the Roman Catholics. lie recollected the time %heretic himself entertained deubts on the propriety of greet ing concessions to the e'Attiehcs. lie need net say what, violect prejudices existed 40 or SO years ago in Ireland. At the time et the Union of the two countries that prejudice still continued. Mi nisters tcok their advantage accordingly. " No Popery" had been inscribed on the walla of the metropolis In evetydireetion ; the: epigraph had now eit en place to " Day and Martm," and " War ren's Blacking." (A laugh.) He wished he could Ply the feel ing was obliterated with the inscription. (Heat.) Prejudices her. also existed &picot the aholinon of the Stave Trade; but that measure had musei, and not a hand-bill appeared agniruit it. Peet sons under the unhappy effects of the MiIt:ALS:I prejadice that ex,st, eel in Ireland had been compelled to abandon their country. Teem might say with the Poet— " Whereer I roam, wba•cver realms I sec, My heart, untravilled, fondly turns to thee; Still to my brother turns with anxious pain, And drags at each remove a leugtheniag chain. ' The Catholic, separated from hie friends and family, had tide dragged a mental chain, which had been lengthening at every ewe. Conciliation was the remedy to be applied to the rya, of heard : but when he looked at the conduct of his Majesty's ililietere. be could cot think or speak upon the subject with ordionry pet'eece. They wielded the thunder anal she lightning, hot no memoree se rediers or conciliation were to be had from these bane.. The Cabinet was divided upon a questiira of the most vital imt ettence. And they put into the mouth of their Royal Montt langiser the most opposite to what be believed were the acted sentiments either illustrious personage. They had caused hint to ;Apt a dillaree't language towards his Irish and his Hutment& mehieres. 'I v the Catholics the Kit, of Hanover bad said " aye'' —bet de King of Ireland had said " rue"—to his Irish subject". It might be said that the King bad it in his power to remodel the Administration ; the breath that made, could unmake them t hr might dismiss them, and form anew Administration: and it weetit be much better teethe country to possess au Ailmtniatration ati pable of giving a derided atErreative or negative to a get ateh of such importance. Were that question to he decided ceeovaior to the wishes of all liberal men, they might reckon ;:pot, the it prow of the Irish ration, sod elicit lasting gratitude. The Carl of GORFORD aid, it was impothibie fun him to ex press the eurpriee he felt when he mitt:id upon the tondeceof OS• vernmeat, sad Parliothert steel, with respect :c this ILEIPUTe. li. what iituatice would their conduct _place the 'ecuatty ? There was not a low pettyfoggirg attorney in Ireemil that Weida not dud ere ployrnost in hie attempts . to carry the ereeent Thll. Ile ought to know something about I;ish affairs : and 1n gate it as his filth Pm sussion„ that there was nothing so well Calusilved to rtOiSva }taco and tranquilety ill that country as further conceetans to the Reese+ Catholic% The only possible merle of doe, real and etthatattal good t n the country was by purse rag s-ch a course, Ltd Get by adopting meaturre hke the present. If tbeY were desireus o f re moving the evtis of inland, that was the Wede of .ayeiltine the remedy : sell a questicn Mauch vital impoetence to the Btu' shina,l be met boldly aed openly . The Earl of LONGFORD was &limo ef-wilewitting a tar few observations to the atterter& of the House. There rented .s the country many tenons who oansidered the present earwax more in the light 01 a protective than a txrcite enactment. He was • % t altPemed iti dent the txistrote qf el* it *load, tut fee there the ICatholic Amor wino afrmtled no adequate rend , ' y . The A 5..:..: ~. Lion had arrogated to itself the functions of N , vi rn-oc r t. Tir :!. c , the uml-ailmunstratioe of justice coteplaicrd t': tot . .he pattr eee. La:d LIVERPOOL on his legs, speakini for the second read ing of the Ilill. ‘Ve understood him to say, that even if he had been the most ardent supporter of Catholic Emancipation, be should still have urged the passing of this Bill, as he considered the pro ceedings of the Association to be injurious to the Catholic cause. Some discuss:on relative to the general nature of this Bill had already taken place ; hut, before recurring to it, he must notice an expression which had dropped from a Noble Lord (Bollard) rela tive to his (Lord Liverpool) not having taken the most manly line of argument, and not haring named the Catholic Association in the BilL Now be thought it particularly uefiir that be should fix upon that point, when he (Lord L.) distinctly stated in • part of his speech that the Bill had the Catholic Association principally in view. If the House was called upon to legislate upon the Catholic As sociation, they were also legislating against the Orange and all other AssociaLons at the same time. Now this took aw a y com pletely the alleged partiality of the measure. It was that extended view he took of the question and 110 t at one inertly applied to the Catholic Association. He did not, however, mean to deny that the Association was the prominent object in view. Now there were two points in which this question might he viewed. It may he looked at as a measure to prevent the evasion of the Coti yentiou Act ; this was the view the prewrible of the Bill took of the subject. They might also look upon it tut its own merits. The first view would not be conclusive, because he was ready so admit that it the Catholic Association is not guilty, dime would not be any occasion to extend the Convention Act; but he thought that the argument of bat Leartiei: Friend oa the Woolsack was 17011 Hush*. The same principle was to be applied to one Association as well as to the other. He Wall Ole of those who thought that, in such a situation and In such a country, if looked to in all ita parts with regard th its tranquillity, it was not Consistent with the spirit of the British Constitution. No man was more ready than he sou to admit the right of the rut; ect to assemble and petiars, or take any • . . r h i - .. . . * . , .. . • -• ' • rt . Or- 3' . ilk. 6,943. 0111111%•--- . F ati./AIifICNTARY INTELLIGRIV , CB. of Government—a footsore which was allud —......--- his opening Speech delivered from the throe MOUSE Or LORDS, TolciaDaw, Mono* 3. for by this and the other House. This api Wary measure that their Lordships had pl Ty e Toady Alilliotut Exchequer Bills BM the Transfer in Pledged themselves in his opinion some, ~ere mood the Annual Indemnity Bill, ware read a third time I day of the session, to consider. He though !, ir e deIOSVENOR said, he was sorry to trespass again on the beans measure without fear of comracifetm millit the House relative to a matter cosemning blastoff ; 1 measure recommended to be adopted by t ilt atweesary to correct soother error that had goes did the members of the Catholic Assoc ets .-- " k dlo remarks which he had taken the liberty of making I greeted by it ? A charge, and an extraor a 4 ' ap all ::= itlail ieem he had stated that he bad not made anything into the mouth ',Chia Majesty against those and that, in short, he had notbto concerned hat not secret, but open Associations. His o f w hi c h ea many epap e 4 eat . H e h a d I non of Parliament towards those At Wirs " — el eeis=r illas reported by the public press s• Ism said, that charges with " having adopted psoceedin loil. Ii NMlway. not recently made ani money e, way. oa I the spirit of thelC,onatitution." Be we ismion h e had done ea. Fie hit it ~,,,," a heavy charge ? Did it not go t o OM •m oons this report, and to state, that beheld war comernol vithuda from the mo u th o f roya l ty i ts 4 a soy speadolloni of soy description WholosoMM riot grievance of which any loyal subjects . CATHOLIC PETITIONS. King should come down to Parliament 1 that KING rose to present a petition from oxtail; la against them ? Best is that charge the on dividolds, it was, there was another still m ore h eavy . •ti•cti his Lordship observed would allaal am egeO l sok saa n me them that these proceedings were' ealcula 0 ; the objects of the so-much-ralumniallid CedIMMI Agnadokloth. _ _ and by exasperating animosities, to endang ti Pit down which was the intention of the 11 . 1 las. 11.1.9 u " and to retard the course of national imp? gesso The petition was from three person s timmisia s ait d i , thus charged with exasperating animostta ety of Dublin, who stated that they were the Mee Of linniso 4 tbe discord that had existed foe centuries, and j oy, and in every way competent to become Ihimain donne' ves ; wounds of their country, of preferring to tut that being tos poor to obtain tie rights which weft dolled them t h em wan a b een th eme bain& host by the Corlittiott. they bad been "lasted by tie Alm - this &urge. Ter, (ova not be dented eve cation itt obtaining a mandostma from the Court d 'a Beach meters on . e , , .aided the Haar. *Moat them into a Gstild of t he sit ,as a .......,,,,,_• stip to oh. 4, wow ... - • r‘" taw It at A, N al 4 1//f Ml ' • s - . 11 ii,...A_ • r - II Ye understood till ...t; -. . .... ".4 . . 7-v-- ; see - urges to be unfounded ? Ocageer ispe. Via tion team wetre, isba l i T . members of the Catholic Association were n' ed lie would not hazard an opinic . Arad Edward el Adeoek i two of them were 1 1 1 . imcni t ir es, etas Cli laid as a matter of right ought to be admitted to ti e Corporation. But though they had frequently solicited admits- u hi n a thre had ' received all the information could receive. He had been in the habit c lion to the rumours of notoriety, or the an t tees into some Guild as a preperatory step to the freedom, they pen, but he knew that whenever the How i ye w pot gain this admissioo, so they professed the Roman Ca. ering with the liberty of the subject, it s c h e ek religion. They kill too poor to do it themselves, a that a Select Committee should be appoir 1 goIOWSPOS had been applien for, and obtained, from the Court of matters connected with such interference, f • 00 Bcpch, directing tke Lord Mayor and Common Council to ing their judg.ncnts on better foundations t ' t abut them. The petitioners .declared that they had heard w ith notoriety and the public press. In this cat • *deepest sorrow that it was the intention of the House to put limey had been used. Their Lordships ha own this Catholic Association, which had been the means of side that the Catholic Association was not scablirg them to gain their rights.--The petition was laid on the that all their proceedings were open • why able. should we wish to know what we know so The Earl of DONOUGII3IO,RE obterved, that he had several would remind their Lordships of the polit Otos to present from Catholics In various parts of Ireland they had received their information. He w ; s oot the Bill for suppressing illegal Associations in that country. the pure object of the petitioners was to be Re would not now discuss the subject, as he had expressed his blouse, for the purpose of laying before t rtinOlentS on it when on a former occasion he had had the. k.nn.ller now d Ii Odom, Fog, LONDON, FRIIj. ;alluded to by his Majesty in throne, and which was called appeared to him to be the Ad pledged themselves, and somewhat hastily, on the first thought he might 1114111110 it to covradiction. If, thee, it were the '-meted by the King's Speech, how Association stand personally extraordinary charge, was put those Associations which were Is Majesty calls the attest- Association'', which he proceedings irreconcilable with "- would ask, was not that to impeach certain lath itself ? Was it not the has.. 'a could complain, that the . with so heavy a charge only one ? No ; heavy se ‘avy. It was charged a gat nat calculated, by exciting ammo, t endanger the peace of society. nal improvement." They were animosities, with increasing the and, instead of healing the 'o irritate them. If ever any body of men. it was even lig his Majesa oad • }6llson , W 10016 they went ale iod willing If they were untrue, the of all men the most ca. opinion on that point, at least formation on the subject that he it of not paying any &teen accounts in the public pa. iouse was in any way inter. it was always the practice }pointed to inquire into all for the purpose of form than those given them by case, however, no such de had been told on the other m of a secret nature, but I then, was the argument, so well already ? But he fluted sources from which was inanueted to say that be heard at the bar of the purpose -_ .aying e_ e their Lordships all docu ments and papers connected with the Association as would sans factotily assure their Lordships that there was nothing in any of their proceedings that could in the slightest degree create alarm. He could not tell on what ground the Noble Earl could expect that their Lordships would be inclined to refute the prayer of the peti tion. Their Lordships would not agree to pass a Bill to exclude a peek front a common, until they heard evidence and Counsel at the bar, to ascertain whether they could or could not justly do 130; fet this Bill went to injure and attack so large a portion of our ellow-countrymen ; and could their Lordships for a moment con sent to hear lair and fitting arguments against it? The only evi dence referred to by those who bring forward the Bill and press it upon the !louse, is nothing more than notoriety. But he would ask the Noble Earl (Liverpool), would this Bill have been ever in troduced into the House but for the Catholic Association? He (Lord Carnarvon) was convinced that the House would never have heard of the Bill, were not the direct object of it to put down the Catholic Association. The Noble Eat' admitted as much at the commencement of the present Session of Parliament; and the fact that it was so is notorieas. In the Speech of his Majesty, he ex presses a hope, " that the House will adopt some speedy measures to remedy the evil." Was he (Lord Carnarvon) then authorised, or was he not authorised, in saying, that the measure now before the House was the measure recommended by the King, and adopted b his Ministers as a remedy for the evil ? He entreated their Lor d ship (, therefore , to consider in what state the petitioners stood with respect to this Bill. Had they no interests at stake? The usual argument with respect to petitions was, that the House should hear those whose individual interests were at stake, but not those who suffered generally. But he would ask, was not such the case with the petitioners? Were they not charged personally with baying endeavoured to promote discord, and increase national hos tility ? Were they not charged with crimes, which were of all crimes the most heinous ? °odd it not be justice. then, to in. quire into the facts? Why should the House be called upon to legislate so much to the darl. ? Why should their Lordships add another to those many penal laws which already disgraced the Statute Busk ? Why. after a !epee of so many centuries of dis core should they reek to tranquillise. or rather to preserve the tranquddies .el • esanquitfire was admitted on at sides, and even by his Majesty, to exist—by the en of such a limners as the OM proposed) Could they -atee alt ttl esserchm menl.l grow a pe-manent tranquillity ? It was asserted, and deni.il by no party, that with this Aeeoeia. tier a remarkable tranquillity existed—ahetLer it was the result of the Association or not ha would not take It on himself to say ; but he would iutreat their Lordships to consider how, if such were the rue, this Association stood. Thou: restrictions on the legal rights of the subject were proposed to be carried to a part of the country, with the local situation of which very few of their Lordships were accurately acquainted. The Irish were a people whose character, whose habits, and whore interests differed mate rially from the habits, this character, and the interests of this ceuntry. It could not be contended that the measure involved only a question so remote as is be inconsiderable. If Ireland were disaffected—if the Roman Catholics were conceived to be dan gerous, for they were the great body represented by the Catholic Association—that Assoc iation which counted were led on and guarded by as able advocates as any at the liar of this land—which were supported by the greater and far the greater part of the ministers of their religion—he need not say, for the Noble Earl himself had said, that they possessed the confidence of the Catholic population of Ireland; then, in such a case, the House was still more bound to inert tigateibe conduct of the Association; for it became doubly impor tant that their Lordship. should be well acquainted with the Mat ter, sons to enact such legislative measures as might meet theneces sity of the case. But it would be first nceseary to know, did those evils or did they not exist ? If they did not exist,. then it would be wring to legislate, because excessive legislation was always an evil. He wished, for the interest of their lordships, and for the interesta of England as well as Ireland, that they would hear the Counsel of the petitioners: and if' they did, what would be the consequence, if the result of their investigation was not that the Catholic Association was fraught with the dangers it had been represented by the Speech of his Majesty to be. and if it appeared that the dengers imputed to them were imputable only to the mea sure the House was called upon to adopt ? Would not the House then " return the poisoned chalice to their own lips ?" Their Lordships would be satisfied on all points if they would agree to allow those members of the Association to be heard by their Coun sel at the Bar of the House, that they might at Imst be able to plead their cause before their Judges. If Ireland continued in her present state of tranquillity. England and Ireland united would be the admiration of the world, and the protectors of the nations around us. Namee had formed the two islands to be associated they were naturally integral parts of one great whole. Their Lord ships could not think they would be late; able to trample upon Ire. land, for Ireland was a part of ourselves, and incorporated with ua It was riot necessary for him to calculate the population of that country, no matter whether it were five millions or six millions, or seven millions. They formal a mighty part of the nation.. If one limb were paralysed, the vigour of life would be nearly gone. He hoped their Loorrdships would pause before they did an act of injustice—an act which might again call into action all the bid and discontented feelings of that country. Let their first act be an act of grace, and let them not refuse to hear at the bar of their House those who appealed to their justice to be heard there. We had a direction from his Majesty's Speech to take into consideration the peoccedings of this Association, for the purpose of providing a remedy fur the evil. Let then the !louse go into an inquiry, ar.d be convinced as to the existence or the non-existence of this evil. He doubted whether, after strict investigation, the House would not find that they ought to substitute for the Royal word, that tine Association " was calculated by exasperating ani. 'limiting to endanger society, and to retard the course of national improvement," to substitute, be would say, for this his 3lsjesty's declaration—that Ireland was fast increasing in population—that capital was fast epreadiag like blessed streams over the surface and in the depths of her land—surd that her permanent prosperity was every day becoming more sure. He hoped their Lordship' would not &stern that repose which now existed in Ireland. She was peculiarly calculated by her rivers, her harbours, and her other advanuigse, to give promise that in a few years she would bear compar.sosi with Eoglaud. He trusted that such steps would be adop.ed by that !louse es would tend to unite in one common feel ing the whole population of Ireland. Their Lordships might rely that no country would rise more rapidly to the height of prosperity than Ireland. it they would put an end to that system which so completely divided her people. He hoped then that their Lord ships would hot pass such a ruinous measure as that contained in the foolish Bill now before them. The Noble Lord concluded by moving, that tin it Lordships agree is the prayer of the petition, That Counsel ehould be heard at the bar of the flouts against the Bill Tim Earl o, LIVERPOOL said, that in rising to reply to the obterratioait cf the Noble Lattl opposite, he would not allow him eel( to enter into the general question respecting the Catholic Asso ciation, but niercly confine himself to the statements of the Noble Lord, as no doubt sufficient opportunity would be aflonled of dis cussing all mAt•ers connected with it. He (Lord Liverpool) con ceived that the House would be giving up all its general rules of proceedings, and be establishing a precedent, not only inconvenient, but dangerous, in acceding to the motion of the Noble Lord. He would ask their Lordships, what was the nature of the Bill they had that day met to consider ? Was it not a general Bill for put ting down all associations uf an unconstitutional nature In Ire Land ? The Hill did not even name, he would not say it bad not for its ob t jert, but it did not even name the Catholic Association: at ap plied to all Associations in the same country. It was founded, as yr., stated in in pren.nblc, or. what he would call the evasion of a tamer Act, and was intended sob aweretet those evasions by aew enactments, such as might meet win, end conquer evils with which they had to contend. But if general subiecta, individuate or bodies were allowed to petition w be beard by Coasted at the bar of , the House, and had their prayer 'rental, there woollfhe no knowing how to legiaLte, and in times of fintlty or deeper duettists would be suffered before their Lordships Enid provide a sernedf for the aril. When iadividuals who wen Ineensted in any Ineasure of any description whatsoever, applied to their lonlehips to be heard at their bar, it was a general ride -with their lordships that they should not be heard at the second znallng of a Bill, but only when the Bill was in Committee, and' Ot on general but on path ruler and individual complaints. did their Lordships con ceive of the Bill now before the Hatiee? Did they not know that it was not to affect any one verticals/ body, bet all who came under the description of Illegal Associatieets ? Would they cot then, b listening to the prayer of this pedant, tie up their hands on all important occasions, and iffecuallyyrevent themselves from legis. lating ? lie would sty, that if their Lordships heard these yeti. boners, they would be *weed to hue forty others, and that they would not do justice if die, did an hear all. If the' Bill now be. fore the House were delayed until they bad heard Counsel and evi derce against it, would not their Lordship lose at least six months before they could bring it into at / He had said that the Bill was general, that it operated ageism all Associations; but be would not by this be understood to sey....Jse weald not be so uncendid or so unfair as to deny, that th.Gstbolic Atenciatioo amedtatedthe origin of the Bill—he world net denp.this, but be would n that 0 the principles on which thitiompadeettilhvg. _obileattrat was that low cutter at deureseut inni2WWW•her ftwes rigid 1* *Mg) of general notoriety. In staitnei l t a ti their Lon:Whips that this was the ground of the measure, and t t It was against all -Asso ciations, no matter under what denominations they were ceased— he would not deny that the measure was directly levelled against the Catholic Association, because it was calculated to lead to other Associations equally opposed to the tranquillity of the country. Their Loniships were aware that there was now sitting a General Committee of Inquiry into the state of Ireland. No person who was a Measlier of that Committee could say that they were not pro eeeding in a most full inquiry. Any persons that had injuries to complain of could go to that Committee and state them, where they would be beard with attention. A Noble Friend of his (Lord Kenyon) had that evening presented a petition from a class of per sons who styled themselves Orangemen, who had prayed to be heard before the Committee, and they were certainly entitled so to he heard. He believed it to be a matter of notoriety that a Learned Member of the Association had been examined before the Com mittee of the House of Commons, and he might, if he required, be heard before the Committee of the House of Lords, as, Indeed, any other might be. Another circumstance he might mention on this subject was, that he was sure that Committee wished extremely to hear those who could give them information on the subject before them. They were not desirous that any circumstance should be concealed He knew it might be said that it was hearing them at the same time that they were passing a Pill against them, instead of hearing them before it. He admitted that to pass a general Bill under such circumstances would be unfair ; but he would ask whether every body would not ov n that this was a particular case? This measure :s different from others; it rested upon its own merits, and upon general grounds, and ought therefore to be passed. lie did not see why they should make this a prc:edent, which would hamper them very inconveniently in other cues if they did it in this of the Catholic Association. If they heard the Catholic Asso ciation at the bar they would be obliged to hear the Orange or any other Association. He felt it to be his duty to give his vote against their being heard. Earl GREY—He certainly thought that there never teas a greater call upon the justice of the House than at present. He thought that that maxim of the English law, that no man should be punished before his being tried, should not be departed from. He begged to give his cordial support upon that prin• ciple alone to the motion of his Honourable Friend. Before he remarked upon the speech of the Noble Lord (Liverpool), he must beg to express his surprise at the unmanly grounds on which he had rested his argument. He would now notice the ac cusations which had been brought against the Association. It would have been more creditable to his Majesty's Government if the name of the Association intended to have been suppressed had been mentioned in the Bill. For it could not be denied that they were about to legislate directly, if not exclusively, against the Catholic Association. Now, if the Association had been named, they would have been heard at the Bar, as their particular interest was at stake it was equally at stake now, although they were not earned. He was told that they would not have been ; but it would be easy to prove that they were entitled to it. The Noble Earl had said that the Association was not named ; but would any Noble Lord present lay his hand on his heart and say. that he on his conscience believed that it wax not directed against the Cs. tholic Association? (Hear, hear.) Recourse had been had to proof in the course of the evening; for his Noble Friend (Lewd Carnarvos) bed read that portion of the afing's Speech which related to Ireland. Since that had been delivered, they it d 'here but of the dupe tes tom tit! .f Cad been was Presented tilts lit, preying that the Bill before the House be p assed Sato a ; this among °flirr circumstances was a proof of the general opinion entertained by the panics against whom it was directed. Now, this completely did away with all the declamation of the Noble Lard (Liverpool) concerning the Association not being named. It was the Assoc'. ation, and that only, that was the object of the Bill. We bad heard to-night of the petition delivered in the name of the Orange Societies; but that Bill in all their petitis was not at all men tioned as being obnoxious to them; and thins merely prayed to be heard before the Committee, to rebut certain:calumnious assertions that had been made respecting them. There were persons in Ireland who felt that they were not met with that support which they had generally received. From this it might be inferred, that the Association was understood to be the object of this measure. He would now look to the character of the measure. The Noble Lord had not denial that it was • new and severe re striction upon the popular right cf the subject. It was said that it would affect the whole of the people of Ireland, and yet it was admitted to be produced by the conduct of the Catholic Associa tion alone. There were various charges brought against the As sociation ; that it usurped the character of a Parliament—that it levied money ; upon these vague assertions they were called to pass this law. Ile was not now prepared to argue upon precedent, but the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Liverpool) would certainly have produced them if there had been any . against them. There could not possibly be a stronger claim of justice than the appeal now before the }louse. The whole body of the people were sheeted in consequence of the delinauency of one particular Society. The Noble Lord bad said, that it he asserted a fact which the Associa tion could deny, he would give up the cause, or at least that par ticular fact. Here the petitioners came forward and said that they were prepared to deny, and establish their denial by proof, that all the facts stated by the Noble lord arc not true. Was it justice to deny hearing them ? Not the most common culprit would be condemned without being heard, and now they were about to turn a whole nation front their bar. They were about to mulct the peo ple of Ireland of privileges dear to all free men, on ac count of the proceedings of a small body. He would now examine into some particular an d direct charges. It had been stated in the King's Speech that this Associaticn " had adopted proceedings irre concilable with the spirit of the Constitution, and calculated, by exciting alarm, and by exasperating animosities, to endanger the peen of society, and to retard the course of nationel improvement." Now, this was an exceedingly grave charge, and in which they ought not to proceed without havi n g a proper opportunity of judging of their truth by hearing Counsel and witnesses at the bat of that House. The answer to the first part of the charge was obvious, for it was acknowledged Ireland never was is a more tranquil state ; the answer to the charge of retarding rational improvements was, that:the country was improving every where, commerce and menu. factures were flourishing , and the spirit of enterprise was spreading in all directions. Another charge was, that they levied taxes. Now, it was nut a tax • it was a voluntary contribution, collected to for. ward objects which the greatest enemy of public liberty had never yet attempted to abridge. (Hear.) The Noble Lord then said that " it is nominally voluntary, but we know it is not ; we know there is a black and a red book, and those who do not contribute are marked down." The Catholics deny this, and are ready to prove it. The Noble Lord referred them to the Committee of In quiry that was sitting, and which was ready to hear any complaiets made to it. Mr. O'Connell might, if he chose, go there and state his claims ; but in the meantime the Bill was passed. (Hear, hear, hear.) This he certainly thought an extraordinary mode of proceeding. Upon other occasions the Noble Lord had called for a general inquiry into the country where such disturbances were alleged to have taken place. When this Committee was called for it was not at all intended to pass the Bill if it was granted ; that was not the object. The inquiry, when it was called for, ought to have been instituted before the law was passed. This Committee was now sitting. If the Noble Lord would suspend the Bill till the Report of that Committee was brought up—if the Noble Lord did so, his argument would be complete. It was ridiculous to punish first, and afterwards inquire whether the punishment was just or not. Suppose it should be proved before the Committee that these ge neral charges are false, and the particular facts calumnious, what would then be the character of the House, if, in the mean time, a law should have been pawed against them, assuming the truth of these charges ? Now be had no doubt that they would be proved to be talse, and then where would be the foundation of this law ? It had been said by a Noble Lord opposite (Liverpool), that granting the prayer of this petition would open a door to an inconvenient precedent. Now this be must beg to deny. No great inconveni ence could be proved to arise from hearing the petitioners. No man, from the Revolution downwards, had ever attempted to frame a Bill so evidently depriving the subject of one of their dearest rights? The Noble Lord concluded by expressing his internal conviction that a stronger claim never came before that House, and that he, in his conscience, thought the petitioners entitled to be heard. The LORD CHANCELLOR commenced his address in so low a tone as to be inaudible below Me Wis. We understood his Lordship to speak of the Convention Act, and to my, that its being still in force, and yet inadequate to prevent the existence of such a body as the Catholic Association, was sufficient to show the necessity of legislative interference. What the law ought to be in Ireland he did not presume to know ; he would trot presume to say whether the pro tzeduigs of such a Convention or Asisolistion, or by whatever name called, were in Ireland legal or not. But he desired it to be clearly understood, that he wits not among those who considered such pro• I t ' , • ) 3 t i v T A A ,