The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1826-03-21 00:00:00

net unworthy of their new and important duties. He hoped that this step was but a heginningtowards rai•ing the natives of India in the functions , of good citizens, and in the scale of moral im portance. Mr. HUMP. begged leave to remind the Right Her. Gentleman t h at t he Diil then before the House extended only to the three Pre sidencies. Y. applied to a population of about three or four hun. Bred thousand, while the remainder of our Indian subjects, who mere proc:atled from its benefits, amounted perhaps to 70 or 80 millions. The Hon. Member concluded by saying that be would be happy to learn the views of the Right Hen. Gentletnan with re spect to the reporters In the Indian Courts. Alr. IVYNN said he was not disposed to go into the question at large. Me would merely state that there was no attempt made ge nerally to prohibit reports. tlr. HVbIE said, he supposed he might andentand from that th•it the right to report in the Courts wss conceded. The Bill was then read a second time ; to be committed on Thursda. IRISH MUSCELLANEWS ESTIMATED. On she motion kcr should lease the Chats. _ _ Mr. S. RICE opposed the motion. He complained that Go. eminent had paid too little attention to the recommendations of the Commissioners appointed in 11106, to it:quirc into the meteor that country. Some of the totes in the Estimates then be fore the House could not be reconciled with the reeommen. 4stioes of those Commissioners, nor with the evidence which they adduced. He particularly objected to the voting of money for the support of the Society for Discountenancing Vire. H e (Nit.. Rice) objected altogether to cateehetical rewards as highly improper. In respect to the Kildare-place Society he was free to acknowledge that that institution, as founded by the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) was calculated to do great good, and for the foundation of which he was entitled to the greatest praise. But that institution had departed from the principles on which it was fo inde3, and therefore he objected to the nee. He objected to the augmentation of the grant, because it was said that 1040,1100 persons were to be educated, whereas is appeared from the report that the number amounted only to 52.404, and that thee made the reading of the Scriptures a tier put 410111. which was not in accordance with e principles laid down in the Fourteenth Report of the Commie 'Mires appointed to inquire into the State of Education in Ireland. The Hon. Member concluded by proposing es an amendment, tire adoption of four tesolutlons to the efect, that " the House concur ted in the opinion of the Commissioners of Inquiry In the of the year TBOO, of which the Archbishops of Armagh and Cl e arer, toe Bishop of Killals. ar.d the Proton of Trinity College, after wards Bishop of I.eighlin and Ferns. foe red pan. that it would be impossible to introduce any system of educuion inm Ireland, unless It was explicitly avowed and divinctly understood that no rtempt should be made to interfere with the religious principles of any de nominotion of Christians." _ GOULBURN thought it necessary to make a few observa tion& in order to relieve Aimed( from any imputations of negli. genre which might be unjustly supposed to attach to him or to the conduct of die Irish Government. He intended, however, to eon fine himself to a single point on the subject, and not to go Into nu m/roue details; foe the simple question which he felt himself ca'led of to answer wee, whether the Irish Government had evinced as much zeal and atter,doe te promote the measures connected with education in Ireland as ought to have been done. It did not ap pear to him that much explanation was requisite to show that the course which had been adopted and pursued was the best. In dis- Mating the question, he begged leave to remind the House of the recommendation given by the Commissioners of Inquiry in 1806. Aceneding to their suggestion the Kildare-place Society was esta blished. on the general principle of comprising all classes of Cori'. Cane, and under the influence of the recommendation to which lie had adverted, a selection had been made, consisting of persons of every religious description in Ireland. There was no exclusive appointment of Protestants, several Catholics were Incorporated in is. of whom some still continued members. There had been no disunion to prevent the operation of the prinelifie on which the Kil. dire-place bociety was founded. The plan acted on was to extend education throughout Ireland as nroch as possible. That was the original recommendation of the Commissioners. To that object the Kildare-place Society had been directed, and the Irish Govern. ment gave its most zealous co-operation. In addition to what was breirMusly the practice in that respect, the Government of Ireland ad constantly in view two points, which were, to connect religious improvement with such instruction in learning as was deemed ade quate to the kind of schools formed, and also to make such a corn. le:intim between the children as should Imo the least occasion for any distinction between the pupils on ac:nunt of a difference of religioun tenets. It had been frequently objected to the condirat of the Kildare-place Society that they had endeavoured to make 'prosetes by means of the opportunity which their cootmul upon the a choolp which were instituted to promote education afforded to them. Of that Objectionable matter the Government bad purilied V.h. Kildare-piece Society. It was deemed prudent to maintain the existing institutions for education while the new system was in progress. To that resolution. grounded on the recommendation of the Comraluioners of Inquiry, the Lord Lieutenant of Ire. land had adhered, and he (3oulhum) did not think that the cOUTI4 which was followed by the Irish Government would be con sidered unwise, by any person who reflected on the difficulty and delay necessarily attending the Introduction of the new system pro posed to be extended in Ireland. It would certainly have been wrong, while looking forward to a more improved system, to destroy in me Sat-A.1%1 those schools which, though not of the more perfect kind in contemplation, had been yet found to confer considerable benefit on the wete orsociety in that country. After the recommendatioto of the Commissioners had been received, the Melt Government ex. *Periedced great difficulty in finding persons competent to put into erectile! execution the improve:nents which were proposed. If siren gers to the grounds on which the measures were chosen for adoption had been selected to reduce .hem to practice, much inconvenience trust immediately result from the ignorance which, such persons crust feel in respect to the different bearings of the question, which had induced the Commissioners in the first Instance to propose the recommendations. With a view, therefor, to make the plan as complete as possible, It was deemed expedient that those gentlemen, who had attentively and minutely entered into the details of the in. quiry, should be selected to hare their own suggestions carried into effect. Thus the experiment might be expected to be consistent le fact with theory. That proceeding of the Lord Lieutenant impound to be dictated by the soundest policy. The present board comprised active, intelligent and zealous individuals, from whose shill and exertions the most beneficial consequences might be ra t!onailyhopet.l. Tolavdown a new system renational education, and to chinos its advantages to the Inhabitants of an entire country, was an talliir not to be effected In a hurry. It was a task of time and troub'e. Under that consideration, the Irish Government ha I given various rums to the schools which had been evablished on the old plan, with the view of preventing the ad vances which were already made in education from being sac:Mixd during the trial of the new mode. In determining the appropria tion of those sums, the Lord Lieutenant was influenced by the re. commendation of the Commissioners of Inquiry, as being so con versant with the suite of the ease as to know in what manner such sums might be must judiciously expended. The object of the anomdmeht which was proposed, appeared to him ft amount to a destruction o! ell those public schools which had been instituted. With regard to the vote which be intended to propose for the pre. sent year, thongh it might be considered at first view to exceed that of the preceding, it would not do so in point of fact. Last year the estimate was calculated at 30.000 e; but, in consequence of wait. ing for the Report of the tl , nnmissieners, only 22,0e0i. had been proposed. It was now found necessary to supply the deficiency in the Kildare-place funds occasioned by the extra exjenditure. He mertit to propose a grant to the Kildare.place society, exclu sive of a sum .1 50901. to the Lora Lieutenant, in supneet of the aids which be had devoted io"edocetioe in the manner already mentioned. Ile hoped the House would act so as not to give occa ion stigmatise by implication the measures which had been al reedy brought into practice with great utility. He trusted that the House would not deprive Ireland of the benefit of those schools. Fur the good results arising from the Kiltiare-place Society, he asked the House to look at, and to compare the state of education In Jugend before and since the instituttoo that Society. He did not regard the number of children, thou 2,000 was not a trifling amount of children receiving the bone of an improved system of eduction. What he considered the pstamennt advantage was to be disoneared in the relief which that enentry had derived in being liberated from thoweevils with which it raid bee o previously addicted. He felt great satisfaction in mooing the Home that theexertions of the Kiidere-place Society had been productive of the best eliZe , s, and that the progress of education was successfully advancing te gra:Hying degree. under the impulse which was given to it from that quarter. He had the authority (as we melees:tied) of one of the Catholic prelates in the South of Ireland in fay..ur of the Kil. dare-place system. That prelate had sanctioned th • admission of children in his diocese to • Kildare-piece seined, which was under the patronage of a eentleman who might be supposed obnoxious to t.ie opponents of that Society. The &dote which he thought it would be roost discreet for the House to pursue Was, to allow the proposed plan time to take effect. The SPEAKER then put the amendment, on which a division was called, and strangers ordered to withdraw. However, before the celery was cleared, Air. F. LEW IS rose and proceeded to address the House. The Hen. Gentleman was inaudible f some time, in consequetee of the confusion of persona returning to occupy seats in the gallery. We at length understood him as adverting to the difficulties which the introduction of the new system to Ireland had to contend against. it was obliged to combat the prejudlees which were always found to attend on whatever was old, however imperfect. The activity minced by the priests was also a considerable obstacle to the advancement of the principle on whieh the new Diatom was founded. He was desirous to explain the came of the discrepancy between the number of scholars returned by the Kildare-place So ciety. as attending their schools, and the number furnished by the thine,. The Feedety had reckoned the children as amounting to $O.OOO. That calculation was made of the name' of those scholars which were on the roils, and thenatural expectation that so many would have been in attendance. The Survey. which was made on the number of children who actually received instruction at the time ct the inquiry, only gave an amount of 32,000 in attendance. The Hon. 11l ember eulogised the conduci of the Kildore-place doeiety. Than the indisquals who comprised it, no persona were ever better qualiEed, or more willing to serve the public in any country or et airy venni than the members of the Kildare-plete Society. Tim importance of educating the children of all religious denomi nations together. could lot, he thought, be 400 strongly Insisted upon. It WWI better calcuired than any other system fo root out the neve • of jealousy and tliqr list which were so thickly sown when children were educated separately, The feelings of concord which a united modem of education tended to produce was indispensable to subvert the want of cordialil which was at present observable. flowerer much he respected the intentions of individuals, lie could never agree to ary system in which the principle of united edam. tion was not held in view. The attempt to unite Catholics and Protestants in the same school, under any of the existing systems which prevailed, was altogether futile. Ills attention had been di rected with triumph to school!' where Roman Catholic children went against the wishes of their priest and their parents ; these miserable little beings had falsehood in their hearts and deceit in their faces when they crept to those schools, and for his part he thought such a system by no means advantageous ; he could never look at it as a triumph (hear). at the same time he had no hesita tion in expressing his opinion that no public system of education ought to be supported in which religious instruction was not secured. But yet what good could be expected from a system of education which was averse to the feelings of the people ? What could he think when he saw a Roman Catholic child read the testament, which he thought was a book it was dangerous to look at 1 Such education could surely produce no good consequences. lhe fact was, • great proportion of the population in Ireland had got a sort of unintelligible idea that the bible was a Protestant book, and that there was nothing spiritual or good to be got from reading i:. Whilst this prcjudlce prevailed It was little good to offer the bible. What he desired was, to see religious instruction given in a way in which itwookl be willingly taken. Without this 'inform of education was werth anything. Ile made these observations without deoact ing from the Kildare-place Society, many of the members of which were most distinguished and usetul characters. Nor was there any Society in Ireland which had done such extensive good ; but whilst stating this, he was bound to add, that the Kildare-place Society, abiding by its rule'', could never obtain the object of imparting a general system of education Which would be cordially received. This tout been testified by experience, and in consequence the Kil dare-place Society had connected itself with other Societies which pursued systems of education incompatible with its rules. One of the rules of the Kildare-place Society was, that religious belief should not make any difference in the selection of schoolmasters. This was one of•t he fundamental rules; but the Association for Dimou n tensile log V Ice, which was theChurchSociety,would allow no schoolmasters hut 'ermine of the Protestant persuasion. Yet the Kildare-place Sostfety bad q schools in conjunction with the Church Society. So it was with the London Hibernian School Society, one of the regulations of which was. that the Bible should be put into the hands of the children from their earliest years. and that no version but the authorised vernon should be introduced. These regula. dons were aubvereive of the rules of the Kildare-place Society, with which. the Hibernian School Society was in connexion to a tar • e extent. In the schools of all these Societies the child was tolt " There is the book on which Christianity is founded, and make your religion out of it." The Roman Catholic Clergy said, on the contrary, " Here is the book, to be read noly when you have an opportunity of having it explained by a proper person." This was the difference, anti as long as it existed the system adopted by the Kildareeplace Society would never he cordially and generally assented to by the Roman Catholics of Ireland. In lieu of that imperfect system, it was recommended to suhstitute another, to the leading points of which he should advert. it was proposed that the children of all religious Persuasions should be educated at the rime schools, but that they should be instructed in re ligion in separate classes, in rooms apart from each other; and when the religious instruction wasconeluded. should return together again, and be instructed In common in all other branches of educe ti io. By Otis mode the oblections of the Roman Catholics would be met, foe proper persona might be appointed to explain the Scriptures to Roman Catholic children. One rule which would be enforced In those schools was, that no book ahould be introduced calculated to bring contempt on any other sect, or produce ill-nature towards Its members. This was a regulation which could not be valued too highly. Far too little stress was laid on the Catholic education new going on in Ireland ; it partook of all the feeling i and character springing from the past and present situation of the people. There were people who kept up the soreness of feeling which existed. It was also kept up by the introduction of impro. per books. lie did not now allude to the life of Capt. Frency. and other books which had been adverted to, but et these poor schools the children were glad to get any books they could. They had not the means of access to the works of Mrs. Barbatild, and the excel. lent and unobjectionable books which were used in the schools of the Kildare-place Society. The consequence was, that very hymn). per books were often placed in the hands of chikiren at those schools. The system now recommended by the Commission would of course exclude such books, and accommodation would be given to all classes. This was much wanted, for what was now to he seen but excellent accommodation for a few children, and miserable accommodation for crowds. As to the proposal for placing funds in the hands of the Catholic Bishops, he could not approve of It. If a system of education was to be conducted upon a great scale, it should be by responsible persons—persona under the control and management of the Government. He could never recommend that money should be placed in the hands of Catholics for the education of Catholics. Such a measure would only extend the evils of the sys tem which at present prevailed--a system which we had no right to complain of, because we contribute nothing to it. But that system certainly had evils connected with it, thnueh he would not be un derstood as recommending that it should .be broken down without substituting another and a better. 3luch time, he was confident, need not pass before this should be donee if the House set its mind and will to the work. (Hear.) Some there were who would op. pow any system of education. Ile had heard it said, in oppo sition to the proposal for a united system of education, that the Irish I ' were cot united in manhood, and should not be in infancy. He (Mr. F. L.) would say, let no man Mittel such denunciations, how. ever leduential the orator may be from whom they came. There were rational objectior.s to the Kildare-plage Society's system, as stated by the Roman Catholic's, but he should set at nought the denuncl. awns of even the Catholic hierarchy against a system of education which was not subject to rational ohjections. ,The good sense of ' the Roman Cotholles themselves would be sufficient to overpower all such futileobjections. Mr. M. FITZGERALD said, ,the principle which seemed to be allowed by all parties was, that it was desirable education should be extended withotit religious interference. The lion. Member who just sat down contended this funds shnujil not be given to Cs. tholicelor the education of Catholics ; with his enlightened views would the Hon. Member contend that the necessary funds should be placed exclusively in the hands of Protestants for the education of Catholics ? Three hundred sod forty thousand Catholics, it ap peared, were being educated without any assistance. Until the' free assent of the clergy and the people was obtained, no system of education would succeed; and that uuion and cordiality, which was I the great desideratum, would never be obtained. Until the educe. 1 Lion societies agreed that the Sacred Scriptures should not be used as a school book, they could neva obtain the eo.operatiot . of the Catholic clergy. Fer his part, hp did not see the necessity of using the Scriptures ad a school book. He had reason to think it was not the system which prevailed in this country. It did not prevail at Eton, and Westminster. and Harrow, wiuth were the great semi. naries of education for the higher ranks in England. He appealed to those whom he addressed, whether they hai not derived their re. hews education from their mothers or tutors, and not from the lessons they learned in public schools. He did not see why reli. gioue Instruction should not be left to the parents and clergy of the 1 children. The two parties were tiow•figitring for the scholars ; but he hoped the public schools wool I nevef be made an arena. Whilst the desire for making converts continued, hostility would prevail, and an harmonious system of e lucation would never be attained. As far as mere reading, writing, and arithmetic went, the peasants of Ireland were, he believed, mere highly educated than the people in any other portion of the empire. This was particularly the ease among Ms own constituents. Nay, he could say, that the lowest classes of the Irish werebot only well educated in the rudi- ments of a common education, br t were efficiem in much higher attainments. Many of Mein pussessed an intimate knowledge of the classics, and of the higher branches of the mathematics. Ile did not know whether, if he excluded the learned proleseions and the blue stocking ladies (a laugh), he might not say the attainments of the Irish peasantry were equal to those of the highest classes of persons in this country. He had seen, in his part of the country boys running about barefooted, with their (Lose, their Homer, 1 1 and their Cicero under their arm, and who were as cap a bl e o f translating those authors, as °replying' problem in algebra, as any well educated gentlemen in this country. But he conceived some. 1 thing else was requisite besides the knowledge of Greek, Latin, and arithmetic, to render the coadition of such &people happy, or I to produce among them a well.arganized stale of society. He re collected when he first began life having received a letter from an eminent statesman, and a riersdo competent to form a correct esti. mate of the wants and condition of a tree people,—he alluded to ' the father of the present 3latquis of Lansdown—in which that able person observed, —se What you want in Ireland is not a due. , rary education among her people, but the inculcation of useful and practical habits of iodusery e wide') would teach them how ue bettor themselves in life." It was this sort of education which he (Mr. M. 1 Fitzgerald) thought they still wanted in that country; and as the Cominiesioners of Education had recommended a system which oul-aced religious instruction, it was therefore that he thought their report valuable; it was for such purposes as those that he wished to see the money of the public granted. But as long as the education of the people of Ireland continued to be administered through various little kncpsof persons who were perfectly irrespon sible to Parliament, whatever might be their disposition (and he had no dimht of the excellency and purity of their motives), they I could not effect the object desired, especially so long as the system of proselytism, which, unfortunately, prevailed in his country, was coneiderei by those individuals to be correct and proper ; for while they continued to entertain that opinion, it would necessigily in• duce them to ainvert the use of the funds that were granted to theta; though he did not believe they ramified any thing by that coseersion, it being his opinion that the very attempt counteracted itself. All that was requisite to be done was, to pm sue the common system of education, inculcate principles of morality into the minds of tenth the Catholic and the Protestant, and let the partit' be each left to seek the Scriptures for himself.' He conceived that by this course I there would be a greater desire created to read the Scriptures than I by the system now punned; and he believed that the res'alt of their', reading die Scriptures, unblessed and uninfluenced, would be the ' extension of the reformed religidn. (Hear, hear.) The Irish were' essentially a religious people. They were of all countries the most incapable of treating religion with indifference or levity. A very strong disposition prevailed among them to read the Scriptures ; but the House would be counteracting that disposition if they suf. feted parties so make it a matt& of reward, of bribery, and of se. duetioo, to induce the Catholic population to read it, or to seek to induence them by any such unworthy means. Mr. Secretary PEEL said there did not appear to him to be any great difference of opinion between the Hon. Member (Mr. S. lime) and those lion. Members who supported that Hon. Gentle man, anti his Right Hon. Friend (31r. Gottiburn). They all seem ed to be agreed in the expediency and necessity of public instruc tion being afforded to the people of Ireland; and he aheuld there fore be very sorry that any false inference should be drawn from the 1 murk which lee Right /lon. Friend deemed it right to take. The question to he deteniiirol was, under what eupaintendance should public instnenion in Ireland be permanently placed? and what should be done with clone institotiona that now existed f until that THE BRITISH PRESS. permanent system was established ? He thought they were all agreed that a permanent establishment should be, if possible. formed by a regularly constituted and responsible local commis sion. This was, he believed, the opinion of both Catholics and Protestants. He understood Dr. Murray to have said that the Ro man Catholic and the Protestant population ought to be educated together in common, each being left to receive religious instruc tions from their respective pastors. It was also the opinion of Dr. Murray that very important extracts might be made from the Scriptures. which the Roman Catholics and the Protestants might indiscriminatelyand concurrently be allowedand encouraged to read. If that could be done, that was the true principle, he conceived, upon which the education of the people ought to be founded ; and he did hope that no difficulties would be thrown In the May by which Instruction on that principle might be effected. The Com missioners were now seeking to establish the best system to carry this principle into practice, and he wished thesb every possible suc cess In their laudable undertaking. lie thought no objection could be made to the Commiesioners who had been selected for this pur. pose. They were those very Commissioners who had pointed out the course to which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rice) alluded, and they were the very same by whom the Report so often referred to had been prepared. He thought it was impossible more efficient or competent persons could have been selected. But the expert. ment which they had recommended was not yet sufficiently proved, and the question therefore was, whether or no, in the anticipation of success, the !loose should put an end to the exist ing institutions, which, though imperfect, were sli they could de. pond upon at this moment. lie thought the effect of the Itesolu. Lions proposed would he to stigmatize those institutions, which, in his opinion, ought to be avoided. If they were institutions doing great, though imperfect good, let not the house treat them with censure. At the time the Kildare-place cstablishtnent was Mad tuted, he had the honour to hold the office of Chief Secretary of Ireland. During that period, he certainly meant to have carried into full effect the principles laid down in the Fourteenth Report of the Commissioners on Education. (hear. hear.) He always thought, as the conversion of the Roman Ca bolic was entirely oot of the question, an educated Roman Catholic was infinitely better than an illiterate and uncivilized one. He hoped the House would proceed to conduct the education of the poor of Ireland upon the same principle ; that they would cauti-usly avoid mating any slams among the Raman Catholics, by inducing them them in sus. pea that there was e contemplated interference with their religious tenets; and that they would avoid paralysing their own exertions by exciting an appribension that their real object in instructing the poor of Ireland was the conversion of the Roman Catholics to Pro testantism. Ile had already said that it was his intention to nave adopted the very course now pointed out by the Commissioners. He had even had a Bill prepared for the purpose; and had selected seven or eight individuals as Commissioners to carry it into effect. It was only after several serious eonsultat;ons on the subject that the establishment of a public Board for superintending the educa tion in Ireland west at that time abandoned. But while the subject was under consideration, day found existing a number of private individuals who emaciated themselves upon the very principle of giving an education to Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Dis senters indiscriminately ; and it was then proposed to select that Society as an instrument to carry into effect the recommendation cintained in the Fourteenth Report of the Commissioners. The Right Hon, Gentleman then read an extract from the Report, in which it was recommended to appoint Commissioners to super. intend the education of the pees of Ireland ; and he asked whether it could be maintained that at this moment there existed well a Commission? If not, would it be wiee or prudent to paralyze the exertions of the Kildare-place Society, through which so much b-nefit was &tie to Ireland. The distribution of books of useful knowledge in the cheapest form was one of the beneficial results of that establishment, and was the House then prepared to put an end to It? No less than fifty thousand children, half of whom were Roman Catholics, were educated by and through the instrumentolity of that Institution. The books issued by them were approved by all sects. Dr. Doyle had expressed him decided approbatic.n of them. In 18 1 / 1 there were distributed by this Institution - WAD 1811) - . 42.811 1829 . 128,733 1621 . - . 153.695 1622 . . • . . 1115.218 1323 . . . . . . . 106.230 WM - - ' • 121.8101 1825 - . - 172.816 - M*king in all • • 950.702 tract* distributed by that Society, the nature of which met with universal approbation, excelt . in one single instance, and that was of a trifling nature and was immediately remedied. This was a very strong proof of the borto fide intention of the Society in the dis tribution of books. He would take one particular school, which was open to the public, as an instance of the firmness by which those institutions were conducted—he alluded to what was called the Model School, which was a school wherein persons intended to be dispersal throughout the country as teachers received their education. In that school there were 400 boys and 295 girls. Of the boys 1.11 belonged to the Etablished Church, 17 were Dimene hers, and 223 Roman Catholics. This was a very pregnant probf that this institution was not actuated by any desire to give exclu wisely education to Protestants. Of the girls there were 79 of the Established Church. 9 Dissenters, and 209 Roman Catholics. It should be remembered that these children were intended as teachers in other schools. AU that he contended for at present was, that the House would not paralyze the exertions of this Society, Rby implying a stigma oft it, which must be the cue it' the esolution proposed by the Hon. Gentleman were passed. He thought that until they had other Commissioners appointed. it would be but prudent to preserve and protect the present institu tions, whose usefulness could not be disputed. There were two questions connected with the vote of to-night. The first was, as to the ordinary vote for the maintenance of this institution ; and the other was, es to the vote fur an increased grant. Supposing no increase had been proposed, the original sum would have passel, he believed,without any remarks whatever; but the objection was that there was an increase proposed, and it would appear that It was conceived to grant this additional aura would be implying an tin. qualified panegyric on the Kildare-place Institution. But be tnought that by voting this increased sum to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to he applied by him to the use of the Institution if he should think tit, would avoid any ohiecdon on that ground, and would not at the same time imply any stigma which would in the least degree affect the usefulness of the Institution. The difference, then, between him and the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Ricr) was so small that he trusted they should not upon a subject of such ex treme delicacy induce any dissensions in Ireland by their appearing to have anytlissensions rpon the question in that House. He thought they were all agreed upon the principles of education. Ile hardly knew whether he had rightly understood the Hon. Member (Mr. M. Fitzgerald), when he (Mr. Peel) thought that Hon. Gentle. man to have expressed a desire to see religious instruction scpa. rated from the education of the poor of Ireland. Ile confessed he never could consent to a system of education of a public nature. wherein the inculcation of moral obligations was not founded on religious instruction ; with that system of education the principles the Christian religion ought to be inseparably blended. He hoped be should never live to see a race of young moral philosophers trained up by Government, and taught to derive a knowledge of moral duty from any other source, or to found them on any rather principles. than on those of i.duistianity. (Hear, hear.). lie had not the slightest wish to see the ragged children of Ireland running about with their Horace and their Cicero under their arms as the young peasants of Kerry appeared to do. (Laughter.) As he cordially agreed In the principles of the two first resolutions o' the lion. Member (Mr. 8. Rice), he should be sorry to negative the amendment, and therefore hoped the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw it altogether, because if not, disapproving as he (11r. Peel) did of the other resolutions, there would be no alternative left him but to negative them all, and thus to vote against prinei pie+ in which he cordially concurred. Mr. 111. FITZGERALD explained. Ile had not ssid that religious instruction should be neglected, but that it wan inex pedient to introduce it into any of the schools, because the children might be taught by their respective pastors. ;Ir. Secretary PEEL.—Dr. Murray was prepared to go a great deal farther than the Hon. Gentleman; for Dr. Murray said that there might be selections made from the bible which might be read indiscriminately by both Catholics and ['Totem/tots. ......._ Sir J. NEWPORT thought the object of ha lion. Friend (Mr. S. Rice) might be obtained without throwing any thing like a stigma on the Kildare•plese Institution. lie believed that that catablishoienr, as far as thej were able to divest themselves fro; any thing like proselytism, had succeeded ; and lie would re. c,mniend his Hon. Friend, if the principle contained in his first resolution were agreed to, to withdraw the remaining resolutions, and let the House go into the Committee. That principle was no other than what was stated in the Report, which declared that no general plan of education In Ireland, however wisely Contrived, could be carried into effect, Onless it were previously provided that no attempt should be made to interfere whit, influence, or disturb the religious tenets of the different sects of that country. This wee the principle upon which the Kildare-lilac° Society professed to be established ; was it possible that any resolution embracing that principle could relent upoh that Instimtion ? With every respect for the 31embers of the Kildare-place Society, he still thought there were great objections to making parliamentary grants from year to year to that Institution, composed of individuals who were con scantly changing, and wholly irresponsible. If they meant to make the education of thirlrish effectual, they must consult the feelings of the people (hear, hear); and whatever might be thought either in that House or out of it, they never could render education effectual unless the people received it heartily, and 3.4 a measure of benefit, and not as a measure of compulsion. Did they not find that above 300,000 were still educated by Catholics; being six times as many as were educated by aid of all the parliamentary grants that had been made. If he were told that the education given by the Catholks was imperfect, he would answer the observa tion in the words of a Catholic Prieto, addressed to the Marquis of Tavistock, who on wring into one of these Catholic schools found Roderic Random among the books used there. Upon asking why such a book was suffered to he read, the Priest said tbat the real fact was, the schools were so poor and their means io scanty, that they could not procure proper books, and the boys therefore brought such books as they could get. They could not be answerable, said the Priest, undee these chrenmatances for the books that were read. But, said the Right Ifon. Hasonet, if Government would not give the poor Catholic an education without tying id n down to cond.tioes. lie could not pubmit• that those Catholic schools should be abo lished bad and inefficient as they were. He believed that the Kil dare-place Institution had done great good by publishing books at so cheap a rate as it had done : but for his own part lie could never understand why a system could not be devised to give education with efilet, without producing any collision of religious opinions. He knew not why five days in the week should not be set apart for general inairuction, • and that on the sixth day the boys should be transferred to the pastors or the several persuasions to which the children belonged. tinder these circumstances he hoped the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. firmiburn) would not see the necessity of negativing the two first Resolutions proposed In the amendment. If the House negatived them, they wouli nega tive a proposition expressly laid down by the Commissioners in their Report. Mr. GOIJI.BURN mold see no advantage to result from the House agreeing to a Itesolution containing an abstract proposition on which they were already agreed ; while he, at the same time, thought, by assenting to it, it would produce a bad effect out of doors. Mr. 11. BUTTERWORTH spoke In favour of the Kildare- place Society ; and observed, that if the bible were a work of divine inspiration, it could not be improper to introdace it into the schools intended for general education. IVith regard to the objection of reading the bible, it did not rest with the people of Ireland, but was exclusively the work of the Catholic Priests. He had just received from a member of the Irish committee a series of resolutions, drawn up without any Protestant interference what ever. They were prepared by a number of Roman Catholic schoolmasters, and they showed in what way the people were interfered withl by the priests. The Hon. Gentleman then pro.. ceeded to teed the resolutions, which were signed by upwards of 6000 Catholic adults. As well as we could collect from the in distinct tone of the lion. Gentleman, who spoke from under the gallery, the first two or three resolutions expressed the desire which the resolutioniets felt to read the scriptures in their own " venerated and beloved tongue." that the society had cm:l- I pared the Irish translation with the Rhenish and other texts, and had found it free from any radical errors, and that it was incumbent on those who impugned its correctness to Supply a better and more perfect translation. The Honourable Member proceeded to read the resolutions. bttt the further purport of them we were prevented from hearing by the impatience expressed by the noose. He said they were not the sen timents of those individuals only with whom they had originated; they expressed the feelings and opinions of a large portion of the people of Ireland. As a proof of the moral state of the lower class of Irish, lie would inform the House, that a Learned Judge, while on the circuit at the assizes of Cork, declared, in his charge to the Jury, that the administering of oaths appeared to be useless: that they had no effect on those classes, for they treated them as neither religious nor moral obligations. This learned individual also ob served on that occasion, that he was tired of trying and condemning criminals • and, in his opinion, nothing would so much tend to improve die state of society as the introduction of a system of edu cation on scriptural and moral principles. The Hon. Gent. then pro:eeded to observe, that if bibles were promulgated they might be read without note or comment, and would produce great benefit. He could not sit down without protesting against any measures proscribing, as was the case in the present instance, the Holy Scriptures. Mr. HUTCHINSON disagreed with the Hon. Gent. who had last spoken, in his views of religickis education. It had been ob served during the course of the evening, that religious instruction was not given at our first schools in England—those of Westmins ter, Harrow, or London; and why, therefore, was it to form the basis of the schools in Ireland ? lie would ask the Hon. Member, who seemed so anxious to proselytise the Irish by having Bibles translated into the Irish dialect, how many of the peasants did he suppose could read Irish? (hear.) Really it appeared to him the lion. Gent. was in a state of gross and scandalous ignorance on that point. The Hon. Gent. had also supposed, by imagining religious instruction necessary, that the Catholic Clergy left their flocks with. out moral and religious instruction, but this was a libel on that body. If the lion. Member would account for their present state of deplorable ignorance, let him turn over the pages of Irish or English history, and mark the degradations, the oppressinne, and sufferings of that people. Let him read also the penal code, where he would find that parents who educated their offspring rendered themselves liable to the penalty of death, and that those who sent their children to another country to be instructed were viewed as doing that which was highly criminal. It was a mistake to suppose the Catholic Clergy denied the use of the Rible to their flocks. They only said they found that in it, on which :hey founded an objection to placing indiscriminately in the hands of individuals at any period of life. It was a book which they considered required comment and ex planation ; this was the view they took of it. But the lion. Gent. would throw it into every child's hands, saying, " Take the book ; and if you cannot work out your salvation, you are a blockhead,". (laughter), and irredeemable." His (Mr. Hutchinson's) view of the question was, that the pr of Ireland should lIICSTC education generally, but th atl pore religious instruction ought not to be mixed up with it. lie begged pardon oldie House for having detained them, hut he had been induced to rise by the observations which had tat len from the Hon. Member (Mr. Butterworth.) If he supposed by the religious education he had proposed, that he should be able to shake the attachment of the Catholics to their religion, they wore falling into a mistake which would give them a great deal of vain trouble. If they looked into the history of ancient times. they would find that men's notions on subjects connected with religion were most likely to be reformed by allowing men to worship tied in their own way. They should recollect that the Catholics is ere now worshipping, as we worshipped at no very distant time, and were therefore entitled to some consideramion. Mr S. RICE consented to withdraw his amendment. The original motion was then put and carried without a division. SUPPLY—BRITISH MUSEUM. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. Mr. H. BANKES moved for 13 3921. to dafray the expenses of the British Museum. The lion. Gentleman observed that he felt gratified in being able to inform the House, that this establishment was attracting the notice of the public to a very considerable extent. It had been visited Ey as many as 100,,0213 persons since last year. Mr. 111 31E said he thought it would add materially to the con venience of the public, if the 31useum were own four days nut of the week instead of three. As the lion. Member who moved this vote was one of the trustees, he (3lr. Hunity had thought it ex pedient to take this occasion for stating what he believed would, if complied with, meet the wishes of many who might be unable to atter,d no the other days. Mr. H. BANKES said the tntstees were most anxious to consult the wishes of the public, and he would certainly communicate with them. It was, however, necessary he thought that one day should be devoted to cleaning anti keeping the things in proper order, and he did not think that two days out of the week were too many to be allowed to those who were anxious to visit the Museum with more important views than the mere gratification of curiosity. The objects of such individuals would be defeated if they were obliged to attend during all the bustle which characterised the public days. Uncles these circumstances he could not help feeling that the sup. gestion of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen ought not to be adopted without some consideration. (Hear.)—Agreed to. IRIS li SCHOOLS. Mr. GOIJLBIJRN then nuwed 19,5001., to defray the expenses of the charter schools of Ireland. Mr. J. SMITH said the barbarities which had been practised at these schools were of such a nature as called loudly for inquiry. The boys, he understood, had a sickly appearance, in consequence of the ill.ireatment they had experienced. It was true that when they were examined publicly they made no complaints; but they complained privt.tely. There was a system of corruption in the management or these schools which ought to be put a stop to. The Committee of fifteen individuals, which had been appointed to re. form these abuses, he was sorry to say, appeared to have neglected its duty. It he at last agreed to this vote, he was ignorant of its nature t and he eould not consent to the expenditure of one farthing until he received a security from the Right Hon. Gentleman that there would be no repetition of the barbarities to which he had al luded. He trusted the Right lion. Gentlemen would give some satisfactory information t also in relation to the prosecution and punishment of the individuals with whom the barbarities had ori. glinted. • • _ - Mr GOULBURN said a gradual reduction of these establsh ments was proposed. In the first year the reduction would be con siderabP, and it would be materially increased during the seconi year. Children who had been in these schools for some time could not be turned out without any place of shelter on the instant ; they must ace and gradually provide for them. An Hon. Member (Sir J. Newport) suggested on a previous occasion, that those who had been guilty of barbarities should be punished. The opinions had been taken of the Law Officers of the Crown. and the result was that the inquiry was now in a judicial state of proceeding. Sir J. NEVI PORT said lie obaerved that a part of the vote was to give Gaieties and gratuities to those persona who had already re ceived them. It was for the catechists, whose duty it, was, no the parochial clergy, to catechise the children without receiving this sort of emoluniant for it. These schools, it should. be remetutered, had funds to the amount of 10.0001. per annum, intlepende it of the Parliamentary grants. Ile contended that one week would have afforded time sufficient for bringing those to punishment who de served it; but seven months had been unnecessarily lost. Mr. GOULBURN said there would be no misapplication of the funds supplied by the present grant. It was a difficult thing to watch over the conduct of schools at that distance. He could assure the Hon. But lie bad laboured to get time young persons disposed of. As regarded the report of the Committee of fifteen, all he need observe was, that it did not reach his office in Ireland until September, and got to England in November last. Mr. HUME thought there was no proceeding better calculated than the present to show how miserable was the Government which had relation to Ireland. It was cruel to tax the people of England for the purpose of keeping up such useless and expensive mall lishrnents. From the time the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goul. burn) took office, every estimate b:gan to increv.se, until the expen diture of Ireland became actually snore than that of England. He felt surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who would find himself short of money before the cloaca the year. had not inquired into them fur the purpose of curtailing those expenditures. The amount of money voted for the support of the chartered schools for the three years prior to the Union was 13,1)001. ; but since that period the sum had been even trebled, while the income arising from theta had never increased, which could only he attributed to mismanagement. The aggregnte sun, voted for these schools was 7:12,6681. to which if the Income was added, the total cost would amount to 16,000/. If he thought the Committee would he likely to support him, he would reject the vote altogether. At all events he thought the money should be placed under the direction of the Lord Lieutenant, and not in the power of the Commissioners, who hail shown themselves so capable of mismanagement. Mr. GOULBURN said that if the lion. G entleman would look to the papers in his hand, he would find with regard to what he had stated as to the increase of those estimates since he (Mr. Goulburn) came into office, that the very reverse was the fact. It was tru • Oat some of the items bad increased in amount, but the tot il amount had been considerably decreased since he had had the honour to hold his present situation. In order to show the accuracy of the Hon. Gentleman, be would only remind the House of the manner in which the Hon. Gentleman had inveighed 'Taloa the item for law charges, which he stated amounted to 731)1., whereas no such sum was or had been ever asked for such I purpose. All that he asked for that purpose wu 461. ls., which t h e i man Mr. HUM had contErive explained.d to mag Jim G eni nify to 738 (Hear, bar, an d laughter ! ) l. Mr. 310`(:K contended that these schools were an unnece aaa burthen on the country. If they were to b e ma i ntained, the pea" pie of Ireland, for whose exclusive benefit th e y were, should au port them. It wu too hard that England should be called tiaLn for 5.0001. to support the Irish Deaf and Dumb School ; a ' ' ; should be levied upon the Irish landlords tor the purpfte of rnain taining them, and this could scarcely be deemed h ar d, for the Irish . gentry paid no land tax, and fewer taxes of any kind than those, / any part of the empire. Mr. GRATTAN, as we understood him, said that he had li t tle objection to such a land tax for the support of these instil Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended that th e mane), votl,;'• should not be suffered to go into the same hands as had Abend; mismanaged it, and he should therefore move as an amendmen; that the morn of 19.3001. should be issued to the Lurd Lieutenirt for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the Protestant tered schools of Ireland, and 'for the speedy reduction of the num. ber of children therein. Mr. BROODEN said that all sums are voted to the King, and he wu uncertain whether it was usual to direct as to *howl tho le sums were to be paid for the purposes for which they were voted. Sir J. NEWPORT said that it was usual to grant money to Boards. Mr. GOTILBURX said that all grants were originally tot!) , King. He thought the amendment was regular. Mr. J. S3IITH supported the amendment. There was a tomer, feeling in Ireland in favour of supporting those chartered It was true there had been great corruption on the part of w e masters, for which the managers ought to be punished, tut it was their duty to have prevented it. Mr. GOULBURN said that he would never consent to rendn the manager liable for the barbarity of the master. It was with the greatest difficulty that the cruelties, which were on all bands admitted to have been exercised, were at length discovered, and , the managers were not quite so much to blame as they would h ays been under other circumstances. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said that Dublin had pun , claim upon this country, in consequence of the losses that c i ty had sage r . eelt Ice p by the repa ' rd to pledge lreiun 'flee e e hitnßiguelfht Hon. Gentleman, however Ought that no further demand should L a made upon any future year in aid of these eatabli.h menta . After a low words from Mr. F. LEsvis. Mr. HuTTERWOWrs, Mr. J. SMITH, and Mr. Moues, the Gallery was cleared for • division ; when there appeared-. For illeamentlnient Against it . . Majority . . . . . • 42 - -23 The original motion was than'agreed to. On the motion for a grant of 9,01101. to the Society for discounte. fencing Vice in Ireland, Mr. GOULDURN ruppmted the expediency of such a grant. Mr. bPRIND RICE objected to any such grant, and coin. plained of it as an insult to the Established Church its Ireland. HUNT; protested against the people of England be tared for such purposes, and moved as an aniendtucnt that a sum tit 34jel. be substituted for that .E9OOOl. Mr. GORDON supported the amendment. The House divided, when there appeared-- Fur the original motion . . . Against it Majority - . . On our return to the Gallery we found Mr. HOME objecting to have the public money vot e d away at that late hour. He wished that they &book; report progress, rota leave to sit again. Mr. 00/(1)0:kJ requested his Honourable mend (Mr. Hume) not to give any further opposition, as DO favourable result could tole low it. - 37 -28 Mr. 00CLEURN said that when the subject was before the 'louse the other evening, the discussion had been postponed to so. commodore the lion. Member for Aberdeen, aria he therefore thought it unreasonable in him to object to the business being prs needed with. Ht.;llE said that he objected Ns the late hour of the night. It might be very well for llonuurable Members who dtd not live at a distance to protract business to a late hour ; but he would retorts. mend an adjournment. which could not impede, business. He still thought tt was not right to vote away tile public money at tbet hour. Mr. J. W. CROKER said the discussion had been potstpolied for the accommodation of the Honourable Gentleman, and bt wished th.t engagements when made shduld be attended to. Mr. HUMS replied that no engagement bad been broken by him. lit had always been of opinion that the House should id. journ at twelve o'ch , ck, and he had stated that opinion on seittd occasions to the House. Mr. GRATTAN recommended that those votes, which the Hoc. Gent. thought unobjectionable, should be pa.vaed, as it facilitated business, and he certainly thought it an advastage, that as much of the business of the -House as possible night be disposed of with me little delay as !I possible. Mr. L11231E said, that though some of the votes might be unols. jectiunable, yet he would not consent to the business being then gone into. Irish Members might be anxious to have those passel. but he could not (standing up for Scotland) content to any inch thing. Afters few further observations from Mr. Spring Rice and Colo. eel Johnston, _•_ _ . _ - Mr. 111151 E moved that the Committee report progress, with leave to sit again on Wednesday neat.. Agreed tp. The House then resumed. DEBTOR AND CREDITOR ARRANGEMENT BILL The further consideration of the report on the Debtor and Credi. for Arrangement Bill was postponed till to-morrow. The other Orden .of the They were then disposed of, anti the House Adjourned at ONE o'Ci.ocx. INSOLVEN7' DEBTORS' COURT. TO THE EDITOR OF THE BRIT/sH PRESS. 20th March, 1826. Si R—Could I flatter myself that by any humble effortof mine the Commissioners would be induced to attempt a correction of the practice of their Court, by an adoption of all or any of the regulations which I have before suggested, and which, I 'Ave reason to conclude, have been repeatedly before them, the observations of a correspondent, who, I presume, is, like myself, an Attorney of the Court, would have long since been unnecessary. He must be well aware, that, in common with the profession, I must be anxious to see the business transferred from agents to regular Attor neys, who have a character and property at stake ; but when I see the most barefaced practices exposed, and the plainest remedies pointed nut through the public press, under the immediate attention of the Commissioners, who, instead of at once preventing the abuses complained of, content them • selves with censuring them,what respectable man can promise himself that his suggestions are deemed worthy of notice ? or refrain from thinking, that what a certain Noble Lord so justly says of public men and their measures, applies as strictly , to this Court and its officers? If, indeed, (by a train of well digested and concise rules, promulgated am mg those most concerned,) the Commissioners had rendered it impossible for any attorney to obtain an order who had no regular certificate, &c.; if the additional documents which I pointed out were annexed to every schedule, such as the copy affidavit of debt, the sheriffs' warrant, the proecipe, bail piece, and notice of surrender; if the business were thrown open to ell attorneys desirous of conforming to the rules of the Court, with liberty to transact every branch of it themselves, as in other cases, and the names of themselves and clerks were transmittel to the Stamp-Office and the London prisons in alphabetical order, together with the rules of Court; if no clerk were employed but in the attorneys offices; if prisoners had the opportunity of selecting their own st ton.eys by an inspection of a public list ' • if the gaolers were recommended to purge their prison s of those volun tary prisoners who are so well known to tht.m, af ter the example set by Mr. Brown, of the Fleet Pri son ; and if it were known that every surrender, re moval, or proceeding, transacted in person, would he strictly examined auto at the hearing,—the London prisons would not be beset, nor the Court attended, as they new are. the agents must become real clerks, or quit this branch of business altogether; the daring practices of those acting in person must be reduced to comparative insignificance, and the unfortunate debtor would be re lieved from that weight of perjury and crime, which, it is to be feared in too many instances, hare marked him out as the sure prey of his unprincipled attorney. If, how ever, none of these be attempted, though the abuse be obvious and the remedy plain, without either noise or ostentation, I must conclude that the Commissioners are perfectly satisfied with the practice of their Court. I am , Sir, your very obedient servant, A PRACTITIONER• PF. It I I .—We have seldom had greater cause for lauding the public spirit of our Magistrates than at prt sent. The activity of the Lord Provost in particular, in the rotting up of petitions against the contemplated change of the currency, is beyond all praise. It is a vile libel upon his Lordship's disinterestedness to trace all his activity for the country's weal, to the circumstance of his being sore agent here for the Bank of Scotland. Neither self nor pelf could possibly in any way influence him on the subject. It is to be regretted that althongli our county boroneh politicians, high in place and power, arc evincing a ho coming concern for one pound notes, nothing hut apathy for the fate of the slim representatives t'or twenty shillings is discovered by the body of the pepulatiou. — Dundee Advez tiser. i i