The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1825-04-27 00:00:00

• •quit-m• • t 4 11 , I t E $ O , l t << ~: j Y ' 1* ; imantipatiotin—A great part of the Interest of my family de pends upon forty-shilling freeholders of the Catholic petsuasion, so that you could not apply to any person who would be less likely to give you fair information upon that subject; but if you can pre. van spun the forty. shilling freeholders in England, and upon the forty-shilling freeholders in the north of Ireland, who are a very stsidy race of MOO ; if you an prevail upon them, you can do it with the Roman Catholics, but most undoubtedly it must be a ge neral measure; if the objets is • free and fair election—if the object is, that a man should represent the fair sense of thctonnty, un doulinlly the forty-shilling freehold system is entirely against their it is this forty-shilling freehold system that gives the Pro. reetant ascendancy in the country, because there is my Lord be has three thousand registered freeholders upon his estate, and so have many others ; they go with the Protestant landlord, id they extinguish the Roman Catholic interest, consisting of ruidille-men and farmers. " 110 not you think it would be impossible for a landlord to pur sue the Rower which a landlord has in his hands, of ejecting them, against weds a body as three thousand ?-14 . here is the running half-yesr's rent, he has the power of distraining fur die running half-year's rent." Where is the Member for any county in England who would dare tolend such language of his consituents ? Ile did not mean to blame the Right Hon. Gentleman, far from it; he thought him entitled to the thanks of the House and the country ; but he would repeat, who was the English county Member wile would venture sin such a declaration ? If any there was, he most certakily would receive, as the reward of his temerity, his dismissal at the NM election. (Cries of Hear, bear.) 11' there was wanting any other proof of the necessity of a change in the system prevailing in Ireland, it was that they were now disco sing the propriety of it. Who was there that would venture to propose such a measure for England as they were now about to apply to the corresponding class in Ireland n It wu evident that the Irish freeholders has no feeling on the subject ; and when Mr. Blake was asked before the Committee if he did not think that a great outcry would be raised among them if the qualificatiou were raised, his answer was m the negative. He believed they felt nothing on the subject. It was evident they had nothing to lose ; and indeed their lose, if any, roust be a manifest gain. It took away the inducement to -commit crime, or rather the necessity of perjuring themselves, to swear to the amount of a freehold they did not enjon. The Honourable Member, after some further remarks, went on • to say, that the people of Ireland should receive the pre sent act as a boon, as one equally binding on both the land holders and farmer. The former it would prevent from cutting up his estates, to make a horde of venal corrupt free-lenders; the landlord, lie was sure, would better consult his own interest and mpectcbility, if he boldly submitted to the tribunal of public opinion, and he was satisfied that the interest would be large in proportion. There was another striking feature in the Irish free 'told system—its manifest tendency to promote perjury, and rem. eleein n e the people indifferent to the obligation of sn oath. This arose, he was convinced, from the frequent registration of their freeholds, and the necessity then imposed on them of swearing, in many instances falsely, to their value. A very faithful, though most painful, account was given by Mr. O'Connell. [The Hon. Member then read several extracts from the evidence of that learned Gentlemen.] Though much had been said of the novelty of the present measure, novelty it was none, for many Acts had paned modifying the right to vote, although every freeholder was entitled to vote. Originally on possessing a freehold, it was, as the law TOO stood, necessary to register them within a certain period before the election. This was the case, except with respect to the electinn for coroners, under the Statute of Henry VI. With regard to the copyhelders, it was the opinion of Blackstone that they were the mere villains of the lord (hear); and every principle that applied to the copyholder of that day applied to the Irish freeholders now. The qualification was in the very first instance 401., and if they kept pace with the alteration in the value of money, the qualifica tion ought new to be raised. This, however, he was bound to state, that there were but few of them in England who did not possess considerably mote ; they possessed, too. a large portion cf Intelli gence not enjoyed by the Irish freeholder. The Hon. Member, after some fut:her remarks, said that when the measure was intro.. ducsd is 1795, it was likely to increase Catholic Horst; and it was also stated then confidently, that it would create frauds of every description ; and indeed that was felt in 1795, when a Bill was in. 'traduced iimitieg the right of voting to those 40s. freeholders who were occupants; still it was found that frauds were carried on, to remedy in some measure which, it was enacted that no freeholder vote at any election unless he register his freehold within one par vf the election, though before that it was only necessary to et the expiration of every seven years. And here there was ob reeved a manifest difference between the 40s. and the 501. free. Folder • on the latter the same necessity of registering was not im posed. With the former they had now to deal, and It was not an unprecedented thing to interfere with them. No 10-ter than last - June, the leer was passed founded on the principle that the House has the right to regulate the elective franchise, and also establishing the necessity of applying some remedy to the evils growing out of the system, and if possible check them. The Act to which he allut'cd was generally known by the name of Browne's Act. It was one for preventing the system of joint tenantey, by taking . away the tight of voting from such freeholders as held Lands in conjunction with others. [The Honourable Member then read the preamble of the Act to which be alluded, in which it was set forth. that the system of forty-shilling freeholds was Its great need of revision, from the many abuses with which it abounded.] After - a few onsereations, he went on to say, that he did not know on what principle of consistency those who had always supported Ca ' thnlie Emancipation could now refuse their support to the present Bill, when the Relief Bin was concomitant with it, and indeed the only means of carrying it effectually ; and it was also incon. einem. in those who were opposed to the extension of Catholic influence to withhold their votes from a measure likely to effect what had long been the Ann of their wishes. The next queen tien was, whirl the quelifleation should be? Ile would himself give no opinion on the subject; he would leave it to the breast of the House to determine what it should be. The sums that natu. rally unwed were 5, 10, or 20 pounds; this, however, Ise telt himself bound to declare, that he conseientiouly believed if the qualification were fixed at Si. it would serve rather to increase than diminish the evil. (Cries of hear, bean)— It was his opinion, that if the qualification was raised as high as 20/. it would disfranchise so large a number of the middling elastics of the people, that there would not be any longer a fair expression of public opinion on the merits of candidates at elections. Ilia de cided impression, after every consideration, was in favour of the PM qualification—ea sum which would leave the pewee necessarily reposed in an elector precisely in those bards which were the least likely to surrender their independence, either from fear of their landlord, or from the hope of gain by the individual candidate. He now came to the advantages which were likely to result to the courtry from the measure he proposed, and ie the first place he I would mention its operations, as a bounty to the setdeinent and continuance in Ireland of that middle class of yeomanry, whose absence the Members of this House, and the landowners of that country in geueral, had so often, so justly, and so feelingly de pleeed--an absence to which the great increase and continuance of pauperism too lied been mettle ascribed. The next advantage would be the greater security which it would give to the l'noestant population in inland, agneet the nunetical strength of the Ca tholic if he should be celled upon to give his voice fur a Catholic candlelit.? for if it was admitted, as he understood it was upon all hands, that the population of Ireland was almost wholly Catho'le, and the property almost wholly Protestant, be could cot conceive what opposition could be made to a measure which went to derrive those sr.en cf power ' whose influence was most likely to be exerted in opposition to the Protestant wishes, or whose hosidity was most likely to prove injuriwis to Pmtestant interests ; and he trusted that no reasonings, .founded upon isolated facts, or applicable solely to particular dist ricts, would have say effect in defeating the Finn MOM of a Bill so well calculated to guard agaitst any evil effects arising from concessions to the Roman Catholic ho 'v. The ergo menu in favour of this Bill might be rested, and indeed he in tended they should rest, upon the opinions of two gentlemen who bad been examined before the Committee on the state of Ireland— gentlemen whom he had selected, not only front their distinguished situation in the country, and the great talent and judgment rain- liked in their evidence, but also from there being no two men he could name whose opinions norm Catholic Emancipation were more opposite and cotoredictory ; he meant the lion. nleniber for Lem!, (Mr. LasEe Foster) and Mr. Blake He (Mr. Littleton) repeated. that while lie could hardly select any two men whose opinions were more at variance upon eubjeets connected with Catholic affairs in general, yet it happened, that upon this question there vas a rc marked. coincidence in their sentiments, and he even could rot help expressing his conviction, from a perusal of the evidence of the Hon. Mer ner for Louth, that he (Mr. Littleton) would have his vote and support upon the gunnel' this night before the House. The lion. Gentleman then proceeded to read the evidence to which Ire alluded ; the first was that of Mr. Leslie Foster. It stated, in :answer to a questil3 as to his opinion of the present state of the elective franchise in Ireland, that lie had no hesitation in enring, however bcantiful the system of forty shilling freehelas seem in theory, in practice it was anything but Mmecial to reel freedom, and that the only consequence of granting that per :r of voting to the lower class of the peasantry. had been the ralsieg a question between the priest and the ler.llJr.l, ns to which wrs to have the control of the unfortunate pe...ant. I answer to a further queerion as to whether the priest tint interfered. the same gentleman (Mr. L. Foster) stated that they (the pries I. could and had controlled the peasantry it; oepeeition to the whole power and thriotened vengeance of a !xenon.. it, then ire . sinned Mr. leeleion) tire great alarm of the. 800. Alen:bey ta r Louth, upon the stihject of the power thus placed in the pesnint under the dominion of the priest be ciireinered, on wine possible principle can that Hon. Gentleman object to a meaner whit!) will iltog g •t' er take away that power, or else diminish th• ninnber of throe who use it, so as to render it nearly harmless ? Ile (Mr. Littleton) could not contemplate any objection, nor indeed an ti...pate any thing else than that Hon. Geedeinan's most powerful support to the ona , ure he proposed; and ifn as appeared in another part of the eeidence. that gentienuus thought the raising the goal' ticatien to 201. not altogether satisfactory, he (Mr. Littleton; eeeected the ff(l3. Gentleman's enprobstion even then, for we •1, , have the power to till up the blanks as he in Jught proper, 0,- 1,601 3^y sum which might be thought expedient in the considet tie- of the House. The next evidence he could stilstnit to c.. :-.on of the House was thnt of Mr. Blake:— •- Can you state what effect the plan of raising the qua!if.cat - on voili have upon the Protestant interest of the country ?—I thi.d. tile Protestants constitute. to a very cot:side:able extent. the :ended proprietary interest of Ireland; and Cho:tore. in pirooort.o: —ee of the proprietary interest, anti dunini... rs without property, you terengthen present the Protestants insist upon Catholics seek equality ; this equality, ty, they ought to have, but no farther were established, it would, I think, satisfy the Roman Catholics, and certainly would not prejudice the Pro testants it would take from the Roman Catholic multitude the vast pnlitiral power which tie, now possess, and would open to the Catholic gentry the capacity of enjoying another species of political power which. they no not now possess--the capacity of sitting in Parliament; a capacity, however, from which they could only derive any benefit theinigh the will of the property, Protestant and Catholic, of the country. This would rot shake the true legi• timatd ascendency which belongs to the Protestants, in proportion as they form the preponderating proprietary interest of the ceten try t on the contrary, it would secure that ascendancy on a rock, open the genuine sound principle of the British Constitution, which makes property the basis of all political power and ascendancy in the State; while the Prometants claim ascendancy on other ground, the Catholics will consider it hostile, and oppose it but once put on its tree ground, the Motile character would cease; Protestants and Boman l'atholles might then regard each other as fellow chives, snd uniting as such, render their common country happy and proeperoue." This appeared to be good Mete and sound reasoning, and lie (Mr. Littletna) would be content to rest the suppoet of his case upon this and the preceding testimony, without any further abut, vations, were it not that he found all the arguments that he could require embodied in one eloquent and impressive passage:— " Do you think that the settlement of whet you call the Ca tholic Question, and the making a peorision for the Roman thitholic Clergy, such as they would be willing to accept of. would or woull not he calculated to give additional security to the Pro- testant.Establishment in Irelend ?—t thick that settlement, open wise and sound principles, would be above all others a measure cal culated to give strength to the establishment, and repose to the country. 1 think the present state of the law is obviously erroneous; it is calculated net to secure. but to endanger the Establishment ; it creates had feelings, aid aft oils no security against them. The Act of 1793 took things at t h e wrong end ;it elevated the lower orders, and left the higher in a state of depression. The security of the Protestant' is Ireland is in the strength of property against numbers ; what you have done is to grant to the Roman Catholics a privilege in which number tells against property. and to with hold a privilege in which property tells against number ; you allow the lowest orders of the people to vote, and you do not allow the higher ordere to pet. I certainly sheuld consider, in the settlement of the Catholic Question, if ever it is to be settled, that the quail. ficationfor the eaefelle of the elective franchise in comities, ought to be reviewed and aliered." Now` he (Mr. Littleton) repeated, that he cared not from what isolated fact, or peculiar nitration of local interests, arguments might be drawn in oppoeition to the projected alteration ; he held an opinion with Mr. Blake, that by taking from the number of Catholic voters they strengthened the Protestant interest. He did not feel called upon to anticipate objections which might be advanced against this Bill, or to examine what might probably be the vote of any particular Mereher upon it as a euestion of policy hut he felt himself bound to state, the: he had been pressed, both in the House and out of doors, to abandon the disfranchise ment he proposed, and move the appointmeot of a Committee to regulate and modify the present system. In the tint place, it was in evidence, in both Hotreee of Parliament, that this measure would check a great evil at present casting; and in the next, It was admitted on all hands, that to apply any remedy founded upon a continuance of the' present machinery, would add tenfold to the evils and miseries they proposed to relieve. lie was nor, he rimy observe. here without a hope that the harsh epithet applied to this measure by the Honourable Member for Corte Castle (Mr. Rankest), on its first introduction—that it was odious, arbitrary, unconstitutional, .and tyrannical, (hear, hear.) might be much mitigated by the change be had now felt it his duty to propose. •Much of that opposition he felt, however, might lie placed to es connection with another great question, to which that Honourable Gentleman had all his life been opposed, and to the apprehension. that upon that question he might be, from the demotion of his rank., left alone to maintain the hopeless con bat. That defection had already begun to operate not only among the young recruits, whose ardent minds had turned with hasty scorn from the severities they were called upon to perpetuate ; but also among the veterans, who had shared fir a long aeries of years, his repeated disasters auddefeeta. (Hear, hear.) That defection watald, however, in despite of all the Hon:Gentleman's opposition, continue to increase, for he was NM that the time was at last ar rived when they could not remain stationary any longer, and when it was felt that they must grant that which it was no longer safe to refuse. (Hear, hear.) But if there be any man who denies the necessity of that concession, and who would prefer crushing by the arm of . power the dissatisfaction which must arise from a refusal of the just and necessary claims of the people of Ireland, he (Mr. Littleton) would not deny, that they could do It, although he could not praise the nerve of the Minister who would silence by force the complaints of a whole people at the risk of future internal security. If however, there was a disposition to adopt more liberal and pru dent measures, in the management of the Catholic Body, when, he would ask, had there been such an auspicious moment for the commencement of a change of policy ? The whole Catholic popu lation, priest as well a+ layman, were willing to make more conces trions now than ever they proposed before. What could be more illustrative of their strong desire to propitiate the favour of the English people and Parliament, than their coming forward at the present moment, to sacrifice their long-cherished freehold, as a se curity against the fear of their desires to aggrandise the Catholic Aristocracy ? What could be a stronger Pledge of future peace than their desire; if these securities were accepted, to bury all past transactions in oblivion? flaying thus stated shortly to the House his grounds for proposing the present Bill, he felt himself bound to say that he differed upon this question from many of his constituents, whose opinions he highly respected. Three men, whose feir and honest hostility he did not mean to question, were mostly of the middling orders of society, and lee had observed, not only with them bin with others, that the cbjectious were now much more reli. glans than political. The same effect might be observed in Parlia ment; and he hoped they would shortly witness such a total revo lution of oplition u would put an end tii all religious and Pull differences, for until Parliament consented to do justice to the people of Ireland, there never would be either peace or union. The Honourable Gentleman sat down amidst cries of " Hear, bear," and enlist for Mr. Brougi.a.m. Mr. L. FOSTER, however, presented himself first to the notice of the House, and observed, that he hail been induced to offer himself rims early, from the allusions which had been made to his evidence by the Hon. Member don Staffordshire: that eel. tierce had been given in another place, under the most solemn and tieceeearily expressed his unqualified opinions of the syetem. Ir. proposing great alterations m long-established measures it was expedient that they should clearly see the way be fore them; hurt he thouelit the rood pointed out by his lion. Friend was likely to lead to much greater difficulties, and place them in a more infelicitous situation than the one they sought to eseare from. He (mild only say that if his Hon. Friend, in- stead of striving to catch votes, would apply his remedy where evil really is, and where fictitious votes now exist (hear, hear), he, for one, would give him his support. But the Hon:Gentle man's Bill would pace matters on a footing more objectionable, am: produce ev ils more dangerous, and practices more demoralising, than any which at present existed; for while it avoided meddling with nay friehald, e hers it assumed the appearance of • fee simple, and diefrare hind these who held only for life, it would at once rut off rine-tenths of all the voters in Ireland. 'role urns all Act of whir believed., that House hml heard very hole, if it had ever he 11...! of it at all, which he would now bring wider their eowdderaiien, to show what class his Honourable Priced would malt:: rrt.doo:cn;:lt in Ireland. This law, passed without oh-cern:lm. see the I Ith chapter of the Ist of his present 31e'eete. and eel " an Act for the better regulating of Polls at tileelione. No ore wired probably suppose, that under such a tele. a whole host of Irish peasantry had been admitted to the 7. ri, ilege of emcee. This Act, which he believed they owed to the 1 1o:um:Palle Member for the Queen's County, (Sir 11, Parnell) totally altered tit: state of freeholds. Before that time, a person wishing to register a freehold, under the value of 214., was come p lied either to produce his title or occupy the !and himself; but now, if the freeholder chose, he might qualify, without either pm thicilig the title deeds or swearing to residence; and the conse- (ponce was, that by erecting hovels on pieces of waste ground and commons, they hetre.ereseed the voters to such an extent, as would, if they withdrew the others, still leave a number large enough, in many Mares, to return both members. These persona have no landlord—no right—no thle—but unlawful possession, and yet they :ire the teen :dew , : others the most likely to be exposed to those temptations. 3-A. to be guilty of those practices, which my Honour hie Friend's Fitl wielles to put an end to. I ask, therefore, if I a., pp r. t ine l lon. lend, will he Ito the length with Inc of destroy in.; It he it:" do th I will give my rote. Before he sat down he would say, that by Cu; allowing a vote even toe freeholder of 101. unless he was rated to the county for two acres of land, they iield go a great way to exclude that class of voters who were 'hide , incriseing, lie was sure, that unless some such 'reason: was adoetel, every county possessing a common, or few edges of hoe., would turn out its two or three thousand %mere. IVa. , this Lill to apply to all freeholds in fee or fur life, eievol to be fictitious ? That le" had not been able to collect ; but ieere was one dos.—the freeholders of towns—which had no con • -:den with the class of fictitious voters, and which should be er . _feed from an the penalties of their transgressions ; they are not toe mercy or sny :arbitrary landlord, nor of that body of ignorant n:-'• , nen which his Him. Friend thought unlit to enjey ' ! • Ihe calls for Mr. Ilruughan here becoming loud THE BRITISH PRESS. . • ;, • rose and said, that he approached the • i • 'a cucittio, with great anxiety, from the ..• •. • . • posse , ied upon the subject, and . ~• „..• •.:. ty from the very awful eireumatances under •. • t •i!,J upon to disatuts„it.—awful circumstances, he iilll ,, ,Ke the subjvci, of immense importance, and in % great co: stitutionalquestiuna at any time, was rendered still by the nraiiier in which it wag brought under their :. choice was left to them whether the y would entertain thit trtstioo not—no ;lowa was,left to them o f avoiding the die russum, sk-her thee wunlii or not ; whetlicr it was convenient or tine I,t was li • it:4 upon their attention as part and or vneto•tr,i llon. 3lernher fur Westminster , • : iieJ introduce:l for the relief of the llortan h it t..n to go. p. - ; throne' that House, to he tits! ilte 5:c0 , ..ti reading of the Hon. Baronet's --:0 r • • i a l time while the Honourable Baronet's Hill a 0.• . .. t. _to be hi a Committee when that fill wet ••••• 7‘1‘;;;II every stage, banging upon the fate of , • • •. I:, • c se tld observe, that he had heard a clause i.e I , I. c in not of the stages, taking as a security , • It e that it should not take erect until they ha -e pai , eti another Bill through the Mouse. filis was a soLvii , at legisiitron such as he h a d nev e r h ear d of I:eltre , in ii! , y body, co:pin ire o.• other—such as had never, he vei.tu:: to ,at, I In ihe hi , iory of that lionse before. For what was it but to say--" blind, unless you do so and so— another thing to be mentioned—ell you have already done goes for nothing." This formed the chief part of his difficulty ; this was the cruel alternative held out to them. Prom the moment he had first been able to form an opinion, he had been an advocate of Catholic Emancipation. From the first time he had obtained é seat in that House, the Catholic Question had always his vote and advccecy teemed this was now the cruel alternative—this was what he had to complain of, that as a friend of that great question, he most either vote for a measure which had no necessary connection with it, or run the tisk of losing that question altogether. And this he was coiled upon to do on eridence unsatisfactory, nay, contradictory, soil en evidence not only contradictory, but upon a partial inveetigeteon e am an inquiry in which those only who enter. reined similar view. and objects were examined. It was, he would repeat, a cruel predicament to be placed in either on this Imperfect information, given before the Committee on the State of Ireland, to support this measure, not the least of the objections to which wan, that on the very face of it, and at the first appearance, it sounded of disfranchisement, or to withhold his support from it, and in doing so to subject himself to the charge of frustrating that great measure to which the present was stated to be proposed as an inducement. It may be that this present Bill, which now sounded so ung ely, was a sound one ; all that he was desirous to do was to uanl against a dogmatical opinion upon so important a question, on the scanty ground of information of which the House was at preser.t in possession. It might deserve the encomiums that had been pronounced upon it by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Littleton), but his (Mr. B.'s) ground of objection was, that he did not know enough to determine whether it was so or not. He knew only that it was a great, en enporteet, and a novel measure, and that was a suiecient reason for him to hesitate upon its adoption until inquiry into it had satisfied him of the beneficial effects likely to result from it. In support of this measure, his Honourable Friend had mainly relied on the evidence of the Honourable Member for Louth 51r- L. Foster), but if be relied upon his testimony he would be likely to find that he was misled. Take the evidence of this Honourable Member—a Member of your own House, and of the very Committee instituting this inquiry, and upon his own evidence it would appear that lie was wholly against the Bill : for the Honourable Member has here stated, that his evidence bore no such meaning. (Hear, hear.) His opinion went even further than that of the lion. Mover of the; Bill, for he was disposed net only to disfranchise those who had lease for liver, but also 40s. freeholders who had a fee simple ; they were, he thought, too numerous a set altogether, and the cause of disturbance and alarm at elections, and in order to give greater weight to the 50 and 70 pound freehold voters, be would adopt a still more extensive scale of disfranchisement than was proposed by the present Bill. If this could not be done, he would not support the meaeure, so that upon his own construction of his evidence, it was adverse to the present Bill. With this very partial and unsatisfactory evidence on the subject, he was justified, he thought, at least In pausing before he consented to the disfranchisement of a large body of people, who had lung enjoyed an important political right, by voting for a Bill which would deprive them of that right, and pre vent others from hereafter acquiring it. (Hear, hear.) Amongst the persons tied bodies who were favourable to this measure was one sect—a very considerable onein the present day—• very triumphant one, and, he should add, a very intolerant one— he meant intolerant in their politics and in their writings against those who ilifeerol from them in opinion—that was the sect of Political Economists. They had been most unsparing in their con demnation and censure of his (Mr. B.'s) friend, Mr. elalthus, and that for no other r ason than because he differed with Mr. Ricardo, not on a practical question, but on one of the nicest points— metsphysics. This sect regarded those who differed from them as incomprettensive of their real interests. They were inclined to dogmatize on every question, and the reason that they gave their dogmatical opinion in support of the proposed measure was, that it would tend to correct two evils of great magnitude at present existing in Ireland. First, that it would cheek the excessive growth of popula tion in that country; and wily, that it would check the subdivision of property, an evil mainly consequent on the former. Now, on re ference to the evidence it did not appear that these evils would be erected by the passing of this Bill ; besides, though it were, and passing over the consideration of the absence of any evidence upon this point before the Committee, these political economists merely regarded the question as it related to the increase of wealth : pro. vidid that point was secured, or likely to be secured, they paid little attention to any other. But there was another point which in his estimation was nut less important than the wealth of a coun try ; he meant its civil liberty. (Hear, hear.) That was mixed up in the regulations with which It was intended to accompany the great measure of Emancipation, and a due attention to the pre serration of it should influence him on this as on every other occa sion. But even what was asserted by the political economists was not proved in the evidence before the Committee, and he (Mr. B.) had applied to his Hon. Friend, the Member for Limercick (M. S. Rice) as to whether there was evidence to show that this measure would bate a tendency to correct the two great evils complained of—the excess of population and the subdivision of property ; and the answer of his Honourable Friend was, that no such thing had been proved, and that the answer to questions touching this point were such as might be altogether erased from the evidence, and left out of consideration on this discussion. But it had been said that the Roman Catholic body, both clergy and laity, had deemed the measure of emancipation so invaluable a boon,of such vital importance to the welfareof Ireland and the safety of the Empire, that although they were about to make a great sacrifice, yet, greatly to their honour, they voluntarily agreed to make the sacrifice, and to accede to thin concession in return for the more valuable one to them of emancipation. Now first, to examine this condition, '• although they were about to make a great sacri fice." Upon this point one part of the evidence was mate. rially at variance with another—the Protestants declaring that it would weaken their influence and strengthen that of the Catholics; and the Roman Catholics again declaring that It would weaken their strength and increase that of the Protestants. Such was the contradictory testimony given by witnesses before the Committee, as related to this beings sacrifice on the part of the Roman Catho. lies. But even the evidence that bad been relied upon did not go to the recommendation of this meuure. It had been said that his lion. and Learned Friend, Mr. O'Connell, who possessed very great influence In II rland—and he (Mr. B.) was glad that he might pawns it while he made the good use of it that he at present did— it was said that he had consented to this concession on the part of the Roman Catholics of Ireland; but let the House refer to his evidence, and, to use a legal phrase, let them see what were " the granting words" of this concession. Ile says before the Committee —" I should be glad, though it is a very crude opinion, if the que lification were five pounds." He gives this, which he declares to be a crude opinim, in page 84, but in page 85 he disapproves of meddling with the forty-shilling frecholikes, and declines to ex press any opinion favourable to the raising the franchise at all. The following question is put to him by the Clemmittee:—" If the state of society, with reference to rural arrangements in Ireland,was to be more assimilated to that which exists in Englend, the objection to forty-shilling freeholders would vanish ?" " in my mind it would be totally done away ; in my bumble judgment It would not be at ail right to meddle with them. I have not expressed any opinion favourable to raising the franchise at all." He is then asked—" Do you think that that species of improvement in ire ' land, which there is fair reason to believe exists, has a tendency to place the social system in Ireland on a footing of similarity to that of England in that respect, and therefore to correct the forty.sitilling freeholders ?" " I am entirely of that opinion ; I thin k the pro. gressive improvement in Ireland is such as is calculated to do away a great deal of the inconvenience of the present system, and to yen. der it quite unnecessary, if it ever were necessary to make any alteration, certainly unadvisable." 'flits was the evidence of Ole. O'Connell, which, taking it quantum valcal, went to re commend, not that they should rush piecipitately to the adop tion of such a measure as the present, but that they should wait until such • progressive improvement in the country had taken place that the measure might be rendered unnecessary. To the latter recommendation be was inclined to attend, at bent he was unwilling to do any thing in it until further inquiry had con. vinced him of the necessity of interference. What he was unwil ling to do was, to legislate on contradictory testimony, or to pro nounce an opinion partly misinformed and greatly uninformed as he now was. He had listened with anxious and accurate atten tion to his Hon. Friend who introduced this Bill, as to the evils to the peasantry of Ireland of which the present system of elective franchise in Ireland was productive; but in his opinion there was little of what he had said that would not apply with as much force to others as to the 40s. shilling freeholders of Ireland. Was not the lash.or what was of as powerful cogency as the lash, used in this country, as well as in Ireland ? It WOW used here, but lie ad. netted certainly in a less violeut degree. Here the pool, were more independent—their rights were better ascertained-4 had more privileges—they were less obnoxious to tyranny, had other advantages over time peasantry of Ireland. Although he felt with pain the force of the picture drawn by his lion. Friend, of the evils of the present system of elective flincliise in Ire land—of the control and tyranny exercised over the peasantry in bringing them to the poll on the occasion of a conteste delecuon, yet, without exaggeration or false calming, he could present to him a picture of similar control exercised over the forty shilling freeholders in this country. lie could present to him a ploture—take a great landowner in this country, who was naturally desirous of maintaining his family influence in a county : to preserve this influence he gives leases, not as in Ireland. for lives, but luaus at will. The names ere not those of O'Dreteoll and O'Shanglinesey (a laugh), but substitute fur them the names of Thompson and Jackson, and it will be found that there is very little dieerenre in the manner in which he is compelled to come to the poll here and in Ireland. The landowner here says to the te nant, "Your forefathers have lived under my family—the land shall be continued to you and your sons;" he is igduced to qualify to vote in support of the person from whore lie holds the lease at will; he pays forty or fifty pounds to qualify as a freeholder, but it is not :or the freeliold, but from his 'merest In the leasehold, that he Is in. dueed to vote. To all intents and purposes he is under the control of the landowner, exactly as is the case with the Irish peasant, but that the system is carried on here in a less violent degree. It certainly was as unusual here as in Ireland, to see a tenant having a lease at will opposing his landlord, as it was to sec any of the O'Driseulls or O'Shaughnessys in Ireland, who held a lease for lives. Indeed, the instances were exceedingly few of any opposition between the landlonls and their tenantry, and it only occurred where the tenants had leases on parchment. and bad not merely a tenure at will. But because these practices existed as they did, had he proposed to disfranchise the 40s. freeholders in this country ? leo such thing; it is • Israelite akin to the nature of proptrty, and there was no remedy for it.... There was also an instance of the political influence et' freemen and of frecholiers in borougits and cities, which were frequently pro ductive of extreme inconvenience, by the freemen voting nee way arid the freeholders the other t but this could not he a reason or ground of interference with them. Amongst the arguments men. , tioned in favour of the present measure was the prosaic ee of per. ! jury, which w in h th ieh e e gre een w ne ou n t e of fie tte n s e of qualification. The perjury the present system created was the principal objection to it. No man would join more aincerely th an be did In the horror of the crime of perjury But why confine all "t us7oter d s. 4° :rt . el free the ho e l v d a e si g on w of hich the oa con tl: cur horror of it to the Irish . peassat 1--(Hear.)--Did they know what was done by Grand Junes in Ireland, and how presentments placed before them were procured ? But, in their horror of per. jury, it was not necessary to go so far as the county Tipperary : the House would do well to consider what was done sometimes in a place with which they were all well acquainted—be meant the ten or twelve square feet on which they were standing. T hey might not then be disposed to confine all their indignation to the poor Irish cooler; and Hon. Members would not perhaps be so ready to rush down to the House, calling upon them te pass a Bill to save his soul, proving to the poor cotter at least—however neg. ligert we may be of his temporal Interests—that we were not un mindful of his spiritual concerns. (Hear, hear. and a Laugh.) But what should we say if the Irish cottier. in his turn, should call upon us, on the same ground that we disfranchise him, to dis franchise ourselves? If he should direct our attention to Hon. Gentlemen who were sometimes to be seen in the Lord Steward's office, and in this House, calling God to witness that they were poem...toed of three hundred pounds a year in lands and tenements, whereas it was notorious that they were not possessed of a single e sh w il et lin e g att i en n eiethhetterld(hheeartn,ehthanntidsuhceh thean more sorry as there was no answer with which he would be pre pared hear)d e on lie h a t Hasse, hu d be and sorry T h he should pared to meet it. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. B.) knew the way in which he would be answered. " What ! cast such an imputation on this House !—You are guilty of a breach of privilege;-.go to Newgate." (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) And yet it was neverthe less the fact—the notorious fact--that such oaths were taken, and that the person taking them not only swore to the property, but actually affixed his signature to the deposition, and inserted the name of the county, parish, and hundred in which this property 0.1.1 situated. This was notoriously done, and we propose not to disfranchise ourselves for it, but to disfranchise the forty-shilling freeholders for perjuries of which we allege them to be guilty. (Hear, hear.) To pass to the profession of the army, we would see the same or nearly the same practice prevail there, with this excep tion, that the officers, being members of a gallant profession, do not swear. They look upon a perjury as degrading to a man of honour. But we, who are a more pure, sacred, and exalted body, manifest our abhorrence of perjury by the solemnity of an oath. But swear ing is not a soldier's line to laugh), and lie merely gives his word. A change in this qualification, he (Mr. Brougham) understood had been lately made in the army, to the great cret:it of the Duke of York ( lie was glad to praise any of his qualities that merited commendation.) But. until the late change in the regulation, an officer was obliged to give his word which was to . pledge himself that he gave no more than the regulation price for his 'commission, whilst the whole country knew that he gave twice the regulation price. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") and which was readily paid by the officer, lest the country might be deprived of the benefit of his services. Hitherto he (Mr. Brougham) had only spoken of layman ; but was the Church without a stain 1 (Hear, hear.) Ile was the more anxious to advert to the Church as he was desirous of preventing a great deal of argument and preaching in another place should this Bill pass that House. There were a certain class of persons whom he would not name, but who had been not inaptly described by an Honourable and Learned Friend of his (SirJ.3lackintosh) as " Gentlemen in an odd sort of dress in another place." They would no doubt indulge in all due expression of the abhorrence with which they regarded per jury, and would no doubt also feel that however condemnable falsehood anti insincerity were in a layman, they were tenfold more odious in a minister of religion. Yet, when one of these Right Reverend persons was appointed to a bishopric, suppose of 4,0001. a year. the first thing he did was to take an oath, declaring that his sole inducement to accept of the appointn ent was that of " being inwardly moved by the Holy Ghost to take the office and administration thereof." (Cheers, and laughter.) He disclaimed all motive save that which proceeded from the inward movement of the Holy Spirit. This was, he believed, the oath which was taken lately, he believed, by the Minister of Bishops. gate Within, an extensive parish, which he understood yielded four thousand a year. Yet, although this was the only solitary motive declared, these Right Reverend persons did not find it inconsistent or interfering with that single motive to vote five hun dred times against the Roman Catholic Emancipation Bill, forty five times against the Dissenters' Marriage Bill,and fifteen hundred times against every kind of retrenchment and economy. This was quite compatible with their high ministration—a ministration so admirably calculated for all the ends it had in view. When the ' House then, reviewed its own practices, and those which prevailed in the Army, and even in the Church, they would feel, perhaps, that they ought not to be so exquisitely squeamish, and that the poor Irish peasant is the only mortal for whom all their abhor rence should be reserved. Ile would not take into account the Custom-house oaths; he supposed they were necessary to the revenue, and that to them was attributable its present flourishing condition. (Much laughter.) He had for these reasons great doubts of the practical utility of the measure, even in a moral and re ligious point of view. But he would revert to the great objection to the present system, on which the proposers of this Bill mainly relied ; namely, that it was calculated to smooth the way to Cathu lic Emancipation. If any thing would induce hint to vote in the dark it would be the extension of that great boon to Ireland. He would support it if he did not deem that dissent was rendered in. cutnbent on him by the conscientious discharge of his public duty. He the more regretted his dissent on this occasion, because the measure came recommended by the authorities, both in the House and out of it, whom he was most accustomed to respect and venerate. It came recommended, he believed, by being the suggestion of his Right Honourable Friend (31r. Plunkett) and who could be only actuated by a pure and disinterested desire to serve the country by this measure. It came also recommended by the Honourable Baronet. the Member for Westminster, au authority scarcely second, if at all second, to that of his Right Honourable Friend ; both of whom supported it from their lauda ble and vehement desire to support the great measure of Emancipa tion, and humanely benefit Ireland and save the Empire; but it also came recommended by a Right Honourable Baronet, whom, with great submission to the two eminent names he had mentioned, Ise would bow with still greater submission to--hls Right flo. nourable Friend the Member for Watertord, (Sir J. New. port) who was one of the honestest men and best patriots, whether in office or out of office, whom he bad ever known or with whom he had ever acted, and whose name was worthy of being associated in the gratelnl recollections of his country with that of the immortal Grattan. (Hear, hear.) Ilia Right Honour. able Friend hail given this measure his most unqualified support. If he would follow any man in the dark, or advise others to do so, that man would be his Right honourable Friend, but he could not consent to do so with the conflicti...g testimony afforded by the evi. dence before the Committee, and the more so as Le had found it as serted and apprehended by many that this measure would give great dissatisfaction in Ireland—that it would alienate them still more, and be so unpalatable to the people of Ireland as to frustrate the good effects of the measure of Emancipation itself, which he considered a nine-tenth of the coaciliauon by which that country was to be permanently and affectionately bound to this. The right to be taken away was, to the individual possessing it, an important one;—it gave him the exercise of a political privilege at least once in seven vears-.-it se. cured him good treatment from his lamnord—it sometimes secured him also a tenure, and sometimes procured for him an in. crease of patrimony. These were important advantages,that ought not to be. upon vague or unsatisfactory grounds, taken from those who were in possession of them. Mr. Shell's evidence before the House was, that what he knew was principally about the towns and cities in Ireland ; but that Mr. O'Connell would reconcile the people to die measure. But Mr. O'Conneli's testimony, as he had shown, was not favourable to the measure, and Mr. O'Connell knew the country thoroughly. He valued Mr. O'Connell's opinion highly, ha kr.ew it to be ex. tremely influential, and he thought it the best pledge that Etnan. cipation would be considered as a measure of conciliation. But Mr. O'Connell was the last man to ask foe a measure like this. See in what adulation Mr. Steil put Mr. O'Connell. He expects Mr. O'Connell to reconcile this measure to the people of Ireland, al. though his opinion and his evidence is decidedly against it. Mr. Sheil asks of Mr. O'Connell to say to the peasantry, " I have got the Catholic question, and I'll tell you the means by which I have got it ; I shall tell you the means by which we, the upper ranks, have got the nicasuee, which is essential., which is a role qua non to the peace of Ireland, which is fundamentally important—a ores. sure, tile goods of which are undeniable, perpetual, incalculable, but which will not be immediately perceptible to the peasantry-- which will not affect them directly—and the advantages of which cannot be felt by them for sonic time. We have carried this mem sure, which opens to us the Bench, the House of Commons, and the House of Cords, and all the price we have given is, your elect dye franchise." (Hear, hear.) This is the argument which Mr. O'Connell is asked to use ; and such is the argnment which he is expected to use with success. But Mr. O'Connell is against the measure—he may be right or he may be wrong—but he is against the disfranchisement of the peasantry; and this is an additional reason why the House should reject the measure. Ile (Mr. 13.) would venture to lay it down as a general maxim of legislation, that every great political question ought to be considered and adopt. ed, or rejected, on its own merits, and not in combination with any other question of greater, of leas, or only of equal, importance. He did sot know for what reason this left.handed complicated Ca. binet mode (he did not wish to use the phrase disrespectfully) of compromiseo fo r wn r i el ti h t is a an v ires o d ur at o gg f a7 E nesis tn tio a ti n l id e pa rnu ti tasu o l n, iretn an e as i th an eto d Prebe ati ed° ot n h tP er init h ite e u in o g un d against the present measure—agreed to vote for the measure which he disapproved, to gain the vote of another Member for a measure which he, the other Member, also disapproved, though approving of the present measure: so that this Bill is to be carried, not on its own merits ; no more is the Catholic question to be carried on its own merits, but Hon. Gentlemen are to vote for it, Lecauee by passing it some three votes will be gained for the Ca tholic question. He hoped this important measure would not now be earned, although its rejection should lose three votes for that other independent ar.d not less important question. If it should be said to therelilembers of that House, "Vote thiunand I give to you a ship, and to you a regiment, end to you a government, he (Mr. B.) should designate such a proceeding as fui of job and corruption ; but upon calmly considertng it, he doubted, he did not believe. that it was pregnant with the ditastrous consequences which would arise from deciding for or.e question upon the merits of another. (Hear). Our ancestors were always extremely cautious kow they meddled with the elective feat:clime ; they were cautious when it was proposed to extend the elective franchise. (Hear.) There were sonic dozen Members in that House, who, if it was propmett to le: the copyholdere in England vote, no bribe, no accompanying *inn:sure., hotreser advantegeaus, would induce them to g ye ev e n half a Tote in favour el what they sould consider the beginning of uhirey,coharsehiweitledlioL most a series of Parliamentary changes and innovations ; yet these y Important change and innovation. But cautious as our an cawri they were still more cautious . when y the to cumseribe the elective franchise. D i d t e ouse recollect the do. h io i n ch or ma in y q hltellemterbeshrszewri,thionutot sanymdesseliubererawt franchisement of Grainpound ? There the right of election was were when any attempt was made to sh exte rra nd the ele ctive fr a anch' forfeited by misuser ; the cause was clear—the fact was undsoiable, and yet the House took two Sessions to deliberate. No borough nor town was ever disfranchised without committees going, and in. quiring and investigating. The inquiry upon the question cl the disfranchistinent of flelstone lasted for two Sessions; and yet tr:!h. out any investigation, any committee, any inquiry, the House wet called upon to disfranchise all Ireland.ll , as that consistent!? What answer should be given to such a proposal 1 When the Splittin g Act was passed, which was introduced under no greater or less a illustrious person, and a note wh i ch was a pp ende d to them, person than Lord Somers, it appeared from the tracts of th at and which was well known because it was afterwards cit e d, that his sentiments were decidedly in favour of a prin c i p l e like that now proposed ; but the Splitting Act was not intro. duced as a make-weight in the scale, to carry another measure, foe if the history of that Session was turned to, it would appear t h at t h e whole attention of the Parliament, the Government, and the our.. try, was directed, almost exclusively, to questions of Parliamentary Reform. A measure called the Treating Act was introduced in a few weeks after the Splitting Act, and a Bill for regulating elec tions went, stage for stage, with the Splitting Act, but it did not receive the Royal assent. A fact connected with this subject had lately come to his knowledge. A clause was proposed in this Bill which did not receive the Royal assent, adopting the mode of vot. ing for Members by ballot. He mentioned these circumstances, as he thought them worthy of observation, and interesting at the pre sent moment, because they showed that the Splitting Act was one of a course of measures which occupied exclusively the attention of Parliament for a whole Session ; and he must not forget to men. don, that these measures were never discussed in a House which contained less than three cr four hundredllembers, and that a Place Bill and a Pension Bill were introduced during the same Session. This was the course o. legislation which ought to be pursued upon the present occasion. The Bill before the House ought to be care. fully scrutinized, and the effect of its provisions maturely weighed. But there had been no investigation, no inquiry. It could not be expected that the Committee which sat upon the inquiry into the state of Ireland, would answer all the purposes of an inquiry upon this particular measure. That Committee necessarily made general inquiries. This Bill wanted to be separated and sifted, apart from other questions. It was n^cessary to inquire into this measure, and no inquiries had been made respecting it in the Committee but through one direction. It was never asked, what other measures could be adopted to relieve Ireland from the evils which the measure was proposed to remedy. No sooner did the Hon. Gent. who km). duced this measure produce his first witness, than be was told, that this wrs not the right remedy—that it was not the effectual fees. sure--that it was only intended to abate the mischief. After bear ing this, was it too much to ask for deliberate inquiry before the House speed to such a measure? Was it too much to ask for inquiry, even with the strongest belief that the Bill ought to be mrried ? No two Gentlemen coming from Ireland were agreed in opinion ; and was not this of itself a sufficient ground foreskin the House to appoint a Committee to inquire into the expediency of such a measure? He had the authority of some of his Hon. Friends in that House who had considered the measure: he had this authority of many persons of great information and good arose out of doors; perhaps the opinions of a majority of these persons was in favour of the proposed measure, but still it wanted deliberation. It was inconsistent, unconstitutional, and unsafe, to vote for the dig. franchisement of the Irish peasantry, upon the ground of carrying the grand point of Catholic Emancipation. %I ho would have the boldness to say, that he verily and truly believed, that it both mea. sures passed, the one would so recotnuiend the other, that emanci pation would be accepted as a measure of conciliation, or in any way a benefit ? (Hear, hear.) One measure hives benefits affecting the great body of the people only rernote:y—benefits which cannot be unmediately felt, but the great body of the people of Ireland must inimediately feel the pressure of this new measure. Deny man predicted that the advantages of one measure in the opinion et the people of Ireland, would altogether co :u p ensate f or t h e ev il pro duced by the other, he (Mr. Brougham) envied the boldness of such a prophet, without finding any reason to concur with him. If Parliament would plant the Catholic question without any adjunct, purely and simply, it would be received as a pledge of intended benefit, and would hio much good, as it would evince a determine time to conciliate and concede. But if the Catholic Relief PI should be sent to Ireland bottomed on other views besides firsts: conciliation; if it should be sent accompanied by a measure. thief', in the words of 31r. O'Connell's evidence, would be open to mum misconstruction—a meuuze in which, Mr. O'Connell says, de personal interest of a large mass of the people would be mrolred. Ice, ( Mr. Brougham) would eel upon the House to beware, hut the measure of Emancipation, much as it was desired, should become unpopular when connected with this unconciliating ad;anct. These were his forebodings even if the Catholic Bill should pas. But by agreeing to adopt the present Bill, for he did not oppose it —he said nothing of it—who could assure him that the Catholic Bill would be carried? The friends of the Catholic Bill see reckoning without their host ; they were reckoning without their Lords. (A laugh.) It was not for him to allude to what he here of passages which had fallen in any wirier place. What he ha: heard alarmed him, not only for the peace of Ireland, bat foe the safety of England and of the British Constitution, and the stalilli.y of the monarthy as by law established at the Revolution ot lor, and then settled. (Hear , hear.) So deep, so serious, an slicer. I: protested to God he ad never before felt. It was impossible it could be true ; the public papers were filled with libels: co man could believe it; it was utterly impossible that a Prince of the Blood, who sits upon the settlement of that Reyolutioa. could openly promulgate to the world, that happen what will, when he s4U come to fill another and a higher station—(Cries of cilia, order, here burst from the 31 inisterial benches.) Me. PLUNKETT rose amidst mingled trivia " order, ord-:" and "hear, hear." Ile said that in rising tollorder, he only retterl that he had not taken an earlier opportunity of putting aEI to the discussion which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was tow about to enter Into. He should have risen before, hut be conceived that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman meant to allude only bitty rically to what passed elsewhere ; but when the H o n. a nd Learned Gentleman adverted to what appeared in the public prints onl7 this day, and designated an illustrious person in a manner not to he mistaken, he (31r. P.) thought he owed it to that illustrious person. as well as to the cause in which re believed the Hon. and Learn td Gentleman to be sincerely interested, to prevent him front grin further into a course of argument which was not Parliaments 7. and which could not be advantageous to that cause. The SPEAKER said, that if the Hon. and Learned 31ember% Inference was only collateral, no doubt he was at liberty to continue. It was not possible foe him (the Speaker) to define the mode of e• gumeat which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ought to prism. more stricely than the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had hirns:l defined it. It was his (the Speaker's) duty to presume that de Hon. and Learned blember had not swerve d from the course olio gument which he had laid down, but if his observations were to lead to those allusions which the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Pio. kett) had anticipated, no doubt the Hun.and Learned Merabe: vas not in order. Mr. BROUGHAM resumed : From the Speaker's decision, the House must perceive that the Right Hon. and Lesrneu Goldman. when rising to order way at least premature. He was interrapted before he had been disorderly, on the mere apprehension that he might become disorderly. This the Right Hon. and Leaned Gen tleman had not a right to do. It might have been the course of conduct pursued in that Parliament to which the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had belonged, but it was not the usage et the Parliament of England. An English Member of Pediment was free from all interruption until he had said something which was disorderly, and this lie did at his peril, for he was liable to have his words taken down; and he (Mr. Brougham) had not the least ob jection, in this House or any other in which he had the honour to speak, to have every word mken down. With respect to Hen. Members in that House alluding to what had taken plan in mo ther House, for the character and credit of the House of Commons he thought it his duty to make a few observations. Seldom or never a question came to be discussed in the House of Commons that sonic Hbn. Member did not allude to what passed elsewhere, under the flimsy mantle of " another solace," or a place which I must not name," or some such intelligible phrase. The lion. Member for Knaresbarough (Sir J. Mackintosh) had some time since alluded to the Bishops without bring called to order. An Honourable Member that very everting had alluded to the same in. Milani and would it not have been m ean an d b ase -spirit d, he (Mr. Brougham) heard the Lord Chancellor referred to in the Home, and in twenty-four hours afterwards heard teat Noble Lord on the Woolsack answering his antagonist in the House cf Commons, and yet he (Mr. Brougham) was to avoid any allusion to what passes elsewhere ? But the Right Honourable and Lonz" l Gentleman did not object to the allusion to the Lord Chancellor. Pr the Bishops, or the Lords collectively or individually, you touch the Heir Presumptive, up starts privilege, and the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman, in the most diserdedt waits not, rests not to hear, bu t quits time. rises to say, no may abuse the Chancellor—you may a b u s e the Bis Lops—yon abuse the Lords individually a nd c o ll ect i ve ly— Mr. WOHEHOUSE rose to order, amidst cries cf •• Her. hear." He asked the Honourable and Learned Gentleman only to explain what he me a nt by qu i a rind. (Shouts of laugl.ter fie the Opposi ion Benches.) hut whin Mr. Secretary PEEL rose. He thought, although the Hon. sld Learned Geltlenian (Mr. Brougham) might feel that in por" order he vas jus.ified in continuing his present line of arkture..:., yet in proceesiing further in this course of observation, he mug's! forth feelings which would unfit the House for the calm and 1:o: - borate consideration of the question before it. Mr. BROUGHAM again resumed. In his view of t h e the cause of argument which he was taking was dirre ! '",,; l „ point. Would any man now toll him that he t.e' f" c Ca.holic question would be carried ? Forty-eight lints 4 0 ", might be the opinion, but now could a ny man Lope that Me friends of the mnasure were sure of carrying ttic Cathnlic questinn ? What pledg,e had he if he teliaquished Its dint an Illember of that House, and his right as a man of common judge from circumstances that the measure of Emancipatint. scold now be granted ? This conclusion was well for his lion. Ftir:d l the Member for Wist,..inster (Sir F. Burdett) two days ale. the news of this day extinguished those hopes. The news of ih otninious day, he feared would fall upon the people of Ireland h ie the knell of despair :it ought to opeatte upon that House.-It cught to operate upon the country. Ile would repeat, it ought hi opstlir upon the Ileum a a warning. These who opposed the 1110 , 1 Te Uniancipation did not want candodr, and honestv, and con sientinw in the avowal of their opinions. lie deticd any ntau (tic record Lot go :mum.) tp bo.ray more obstLiatec.)nz:itneous- .~ ~. t a. pui; i r nc;:cale the power e tits 'lower nt mere num'ur -Protestant interest. At ; ascendancy. the ltsman C extent of their propert; • ;of equality to Om extent i