The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1805-05-15 00:00:00

~.~ tation, and such the strong sensations excited by its I agitation, that the Government was soon convinced that something must be done upon - 1:. The change of opinion that took place was equally violent and sudden. The grand juries in the ditferent tenth ties assembled, and agreed its resolutions against the claims of the Catholics ; and yet, in a short fine after, those very grand jurors themselves were the first who voted in their favour. The Irish Parliament, in my opinion, meted or. that occasion with great prudence, in not granting them the whole of what they asked for ; and, so much inclined am I to this gradual extension of privileges, that, should the House go into a Committee on the Petition, I should he averse to granting all their demands, though 1 would agree to Members of that religion sitting in both Houses. No man, who values the constitution, can approve of three millions of his fellow subjects being unrepresented in the Parliament ; bet it was very well argued by the Hon. Mover of this question. that the Catholic body is not even virtually represented, though the members of it are allowed to possess the eleetive franchise. I will even put it to the Learned and Hon. Gent. near me (Dr. Duigenoil whether, it his cOnstituents were of that persuasion, he could be cOnsidered as the organ of the Catholics ? All the evils apprehended tram giving them seats in Par liament, are now no more than fanciful and chime . ricol. It WAS formerly said, it you give the Ca tholics the elective franchise, the consequence will be that they wad vote for no member without putting to him a test that he will be obedient to their purposes. But they have since obtained the franchise, and no such tests or other consequences have been ever known to happen. It turned out to be no more than the whim of a distant danger, which vanished as it approached you. All the danger that can happen has already been.incurred. You have given suffrages to, and put arms into the hands of persons but slightly educated, and most liable to entertain the prejudices you are so much afraid of ; and refuse privileges to the higher orders, whose principles are more sound, and who possess the ^moose stakes in the country. To perpetuate these o coodusions, Gentlemen go back to obsolete coun cils, and ages of ignorance and bigotry ; but will any man in his senses seriously compare the opinions of the Catholics of the eleventh with those of the nineteenth century ? I hive nut the Protestants them selves changed their tenets and opinions with the revolutions of time ? In this age of rapid and progressive improvement and cultivation of the in celled, arc we to he gravely told, that the Catholic mind alone stands All, and that the people of this day are to be condemned because their ancestors were bigots i If so, but let me ask again who is the man amongst us who might not be - equally condemn ed upon the same principle ? While arts, sciences, and h ues inipmve, it would be hard it the human mind alone remained where it was, and that men in this age should he tried by a few foolish re solutions, passed in the Council of Lateran. It has been said, the if the Catholics were once admitted to an equal Participation of rights, their first step would be, to overthrow the Protestant Govern ment. 1, however, em so far of a contrary opinion, that I can octet conecive the union of the two coum vies, or Bliti.li conned:on *safe, while three millions of our fellow.subjeds :ire held in political bondage. Nothing appeat s to me so evil, so extravagant, and sn unreasonable, as to suppose you can keep such multitudes always quiet, unless you are determined to redre.s them. Many persons have expressed their surprke. that although the Reformation ex tended itself so rapidly in England, it made so little • and such slow progress in lreLled ; but a little reflec tion will soon resolve this problem. It is allowed that the same means have not been used in one country as isi the other, for milting the Reformation take root. We have records and testimonies in abundance, to slice/ that in times comparatively remote. Ireland wis cnnspienoas for its civilisation and literature; but the reign i f I lenry VIII. when the Reforma tion commenced, happened to fall in one of the darkest ages of that country. There was another cruse which did not less opera, against the progress of reform. When the Monarch already mentioned test attempted to ostend it in Ireland, it appeared, from the letter addressed to him on that occasion by the F-11 Master of the Rolls, that the Sove reign's Government did not extend beyond twenty miles from Doblin, and of course his influence was proportionably contrasted. It is, therefore, manifest that the regular order was inverted, for the King should have-conquered the country first, and endea voured to convert the inhabitants afterwards. Here the Reformation was propagated by argument and reason. In Ireland the method taken was, to pro pagate it by the sword,which has seldom proved the fittest instrument for making proselytes. In Eng land, the King had no competitor, and easily dot fusa.l his Reformation amongst the people; in be land, he possessed but a very binned authority, and the d,i&iines he wished to enforce were opposed and resisted by the natives. The im politic oppression exercised in . Ireland was a f....reor obstacle to its progress. Henry pass ed a law prohibiting the F.nglish settlers from intermarrying or oosseoraz with the natives. As this word fostering has an application in Ireland different from whist it ha, here, it may be right to explain that it refers to the poorer sort of the fe • males suckling the children of the rich, which, in that country, is ptodsilive of a kind of intimate in tercourse and comedian. It is also to be observed, that it was the same Parliament of I lenry that pro. mulgated the reformation, which also passed this prohibiting Ad, which violated all the manners and customs of the people. In every respell the proceedings in the two countries were so I extremely different, that the reformation was not allowed the same play in the one that it was in the other. When the King thought proper to shut up the Monasteries, and destroy the hlonastic livings in England, he liestowed them, by grant, upon i great lands, and men ro consider able property, who commanded the 'respeiti of the people. In Ireland, no the contrary, be bestowed them on English set tlers, and v i e -illy adventerers, whose interests were constantly at variance with those of the people.— Titough the territory of the Government, as I ob . • served before, extended no farther than twenty miles from Dieslin, yet Rislmps and other clergy were sent ,ar..r who never thought of residing on tite'ir benefices; and, instead of propagating their doarines, had, in fat. no eonneition whatever with • the ishabitaats. If the religion then adopted had been at that early period taught in !relate!, tl w ould, no doubt, have had pretty nearly same effeet that it had here ; but, in that coun try. it does not appear that any one ever attempt ed to teach it; nor, was the Protestant religion ever tendered to the people, except in the eirm of an All of Parliament. It was well said by Lord Clare, that any attempt to force men's con seiences only made them hypocrites; and we find that force, instead of argument, was the instrument employed in Ireland. A law was passed, by which the eldest son of a Catholic, who had a landed es tate might, by turning Protestant, dispossess h is father. What could be more detestable than this law, which was so well calculated to revolt the feelings, of the people, by en unnatural power given to a son to shake off the dominion of his parent ? This bribe, however, was not confined only to the eldest; but the youngest, or any other son, was also, by his conversion, afforded the bribe of seizing on his father's estates, and letting it gavel between him and his eldest brother. In this way it will be allowed, that both the King and his Parlia ment took a most irreligious method of extending their religion, and prepared their converts for, being good Protestants, by first making them bad men. The free tenets of the Protestant religion are of that kind that will always extend themselves with the progress a civilisation; but you took the very worst mode of effeeting this in Ireland. By pro hibiting the education of Roman' Catholics abroad, and excluding there from the university of Dublin, you have compelled the parents to rend their chil dren abroad, to be educated in foreign countries, where they were, of course, brought up in all the prejudices of the Catholic religion, or, in other words, of popery. There were alse several other efts which had a similar, and, perhaps, an equal ten dency ; but I shall not detain the House by rea soning on them at present. One great and leading objeetion which I have beard stated against the admission of Catholics in .Parliament is, that the Pope is allowed to have more power in Ireland than he is possessed of in other Catholic countries. If the fad were so, I confess that it would have co derable weight with me Upon this subjeet I made it my business to converse with some Catholic Gen tlemen of no small authority, and asked them whe ther they would have any objeetion to the bishops of their persuasion being nominated by His Majesty instead of the Pope ? and they all agreed that they could have no objeetion to it. What I should pro pose would be, that hereafter, whenever a see was vacant, the other bishops should assemble,and choose two or more candidates, whom they would recom mend to that appointment, and leave the choice of the person to be determined by the King. Indeed I have good reason to believe,that if the prayer of the Petition was granted, the Roman Catholics would cheerfully give up that point (A ery of bear !, hear ! from Me. Fox, and those Awakes who surrounded him), as well as make whatever other sacrifices the circumstances cif the case may be thought to require; for, I must niaintaie, that they have no right to setts in Par liament, while they continue to take their Bishops from the hands or any foreign power. I etas not. however, but think, that the Catholics would be very well satisfied with this arrangement, and I make but little denbt that many of time opposers of their emancipation would relax in resistance, and consent to agree to it upon this condition. To speak plainly indeed, I should wish to ask of -the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Fox), who must be in the confidence of these Gentlemen. by their se leaing him to present their Petition, to what extent the Catholics would go in this respell. and 'what are the points which they would have no objeftion to give up ! I hope the House will bear in mind, that when these Roman Catholic laws were passed, they were not direaed against the Catholics as such. but were laws eneßed against popery and slavery ; for James IL who was the source of them all, was him self a tyrant and a bigot. The laws, therefore, woo a double aspea, as intendin;to prottet the subjelte of these realms against both. As to the prospeas generally attributed to Roman Catholics. I am. in my own mind, perfeetly convinced th it they do not entertain the most distant icy of our re storing the estates that were confiscated from their ancestors. The best proof, perhaps, that could be given of this is, that since the Roman Catholics of Ireland have been allowed the liberty of purchasing lands, they have almost invariable been solicitous of purchasing those that formerly belonged to their forefathers, which they certainly would not do, if they cherished the hope of ever receiving them back in any other manner. I once very strealy enquired of a lawyer in Ireland, who was very much employed in making these pine chases of forfeited estates, whether he knew any instance of the descendants making any objection to the tenures by which such forfeited estates were held ? Ilk reply was, that he never once knew a single instance of it. Is is a vulgar error into which the learned Gentleman (Dr. Duigenan) has fallen, when he told us that the Catholics of Ire land had maps, by which they could trace the boundaries of the estates once possessed by their ancestors, in the expelletion that they would, ems some future day, have an opportunity of re claiming them. The fail is, Sir, that the map of all these forfeited lands is kept by the auditor in the Castle of Dublin, is accessible to every man who chooses to inspeet it, and is daily produced in the Courts, to ascertain disputes respeeting boundaries. The history of this map is pretty well known. It was drawn by Sir William Petty, after the old one had been taken away by King James 11. and car ried into Prance, where General Vellancey was some time since sent to procure a copy of it. From this it will he seen, how idle the story is, that Catholics are at the trouble of keeping maps privately, with sinister views, when the real one is accessible to any one who :Apple*, for it. 'I lie great point, then, Sir, which I have in view, is to thew that, as the Re formation, now in existence neatly 3 , X) years, has hitherto made such slow progress in Ireland, the surest method we can take to advance it is, by trca l ing back the steps of our ancestors, and by undoing Much of what they had done. If then we are to measure back the steps of 3uo years, we cannot be surprised if much time shall be required in .eivanc ing. One thing, however, is de..r, that if we ea pea to convert three millions of people eito good Protestants. it must be done be argument, and not by force." , Ile then concluded, by ap plauding the SOOkienaklii ,hewn by the advocates of the measure, and recommending their exam- ~;~ ,~, • • • plc to those who may feel themselves disposed to ' m fh a ey s C olr t a h i t n )li t c n E ra ni n a ci i p c o ip ti a o t n ic . ,ll n A le s a k ni l / 2 sany an ir d f what gi o ppose it.• • t; ; Sir W. SCOTT, in a very learned and ar g umen- will honestly tell you, they do not Inidw. One s ol tative speech, thrcugh which , from the very low he expo is he will be freed ft oat tythes by it ; an-0.1 ,one of his voice, we found it impossible to follow Cher, that he is to pay no taxes ; but that it is t o him exally, contended, that from the very forma- confer on certain persons of the higher orders . 1 tion of the Constitution, the political was indisso- right to sit in the two !louses of Parliament, is, lubly and nniformly connefted with the religious am sure, what not one in authority drearitnd of. state of this country, and being founded by our an- If yon come now to iwinsider, Sirnavbas it is that is 6 cestors, it was our duty to mani:co ourselves the be granted, the question is fairly this: VIII you giv e s upporters and preservers of that State. From the political power or will you not ? Is it In you r 1 ,„„., r fundamental principles of this Constitution, not only to give it? I say it is not: you cannot giv e , t the Sovereign himself. but t hose who held the high The Engli,ll llom in Catholics by no means stand ii; offices of State under him, must profess thr: Protest- so f a vourable a situation as those ot Ireland. y ant Religion, and above all things it was necessary must t!ierehn e first.put the. Catholics in England on for that House to support them, and this was his the same tooting wish thsae in Ireland. You mu , : contant and most fervent prayer. It vas impossible ialso allow th.tot seats in Parliament, and it you d o , to extend those privileges to the R omau Catholics, what security have yolk far the constianinn ? ss. Lit which their Petition now prayed, without it direct is to become of your church establishment ? Who violation of those laws. In this position he was not makes the laws which craft prodsinris for the main. only borne out by the general principles on which reliance of the clergy, for the security and protec the prerogative powers of the Constitution were tion of the' chuich and its rights ? Why certainly established, but by the local circumstances of that the Parliament. Would you then biing into fa e iti a . part of the country to which the Petition related. • ment men belonging to another church, which hay With respell to the arguments of the lion. Gent. always been jealous of yours and inimical to its in ( Mr. Grattan) who had spoke on the other site terests, and who have ever fdt themselves interesteil with so much wit and eloquence in the Debate of in the complete overthrow and downfall of sour last night; who had expatiated upon the loyalty of own ? The Catholics in Ireland have had mani that body with so much earnestness, he considered concessions made to them at various times, with that we were far from being able to anticipate that I which they have never been contented. In l'lan confidence which he so much relied upon. It was they did not indeed get moth ; but in 1793 they that sort of loyalty which required to be animated got a great deal. Parliament gave them even by a boon, aid from which, he had intimated, he saw more than they asked, in hopes they would rest the extreme possible danger of granting that boon. .hushed, and nut require more. Let Parliament The Hon. Gent. held out a menace that it the prayer now grit the prayer of the Petition, and. look. of this Petition was reje&ed, a separation from Ire- Mg to what they will do by what they have done, land must ensue ; and because we have given so I think I may failly draw the conclusion, that tbq much, it would be improvident not to g ive more. will want stilt more. I may plainly say, that if rots He considered that we have already given the sub- give them power, they will endeavour to increase stance, and what was left. was but a short append- that power. I Isove'no doubt but they would conic age of the whole. He gave credit to the Parliament forward and say, we do not approve the Chow, of Ireland for making such a scleaion at that time ; establishments we think the Roman Catholic pot_ but he contended that more could not now be suasion is by far preferable ; and, as numhers granted. to govern, incases of this nature; we, the Cathoh Mr. GRATTAN, in explanation, said, that the consisting of four millions, insist on it, that you, n, Hon. G. ntleman had alluded to some words rela- Protestants, who are only one million, should sutinnt tive to what had fallen from him ; the Hon. Gen- to us. Away then goes the Protestant establishment, demon had said, that "if you re jell the Petition and that of the Roman Catholics rises on its ruins. you cause the separation of the country." 1-k de- Let us suppose, Sir, that these Gentlemen get into nied he had said any such thing , b ut he did sa y , not Parliament by the division of this !louse. We am that it was the rcjeaion of the Petition, but the adop- told, by the lion. Gentleman who brought forward tion of the calumny which might produce the sepa- the Petition; they do so from an abstract right ; ration. and by this right, fifty, sixty, or eighty, thus Sir W. SCOTT explained. obtain a right to seats: in their usual Way, they Ja Dr. LAURENCE said, that after what had fallen not feel they hate got enough—they find that eighty from the Gentlemen on the other side, he was sorry members cast do little or nothing here, against 35e to say, be could not again behold that'Constitutioo, English and Scotch ; but if they can restore the which he had always considered the bond of the Irish Parliament, the busines4 will be done. By Empire, with the same pleasure and satisfaCtion ; it the Union. the Protestant boroughs are all gone. equality of protection was not to be extended to all In popular eleaions numbers will prevail, and as ranks and degrees of His Majesty's sublets. The the Catholics are in much more numerous, von arguments which had been used on the other side, will soon have a Catholic Parliament ; and then were studiously and systematically degrading to the I leave you to j.:Jge bow long it hill be borne Constitution of the country and the religion we a separation between the two countries takes place. profess. in answer to the various quotations which I beg to explain, Sir, what 1 mean by Protestant were cited on the other side from hits and scraps of Boroughs. At the time of the Union it was found pamphlets and old books of a century ago, as he necessary to make satisfaainn to those who wen, termed them, he refereed to the celebrated Edmund owners of Jloruitglis ; and the sum of t,t00,0. , Burke, Mr. Locke, William I 11. and Lord Som. was paid on that account to Protestants, with. ~ mers, all of whom had declared, that it was perfectly single shillingbeinikrund to a . tatholic (a lee" I : compatible with the Constitution of the country, to One argument used, Sir, in behalf of this Pett., take off eh-se restrictions. If they behaved well is that of conciliation. I have not heard that i!.e upon cet tale occasions, their consciences were not to Catholics are not conciliated, they go into the ain.y be direfted by men, but left to their God ; and, for- and into the navy in consequence of :hi tified by all these authorities, he thought he might numerous concessions that have been made to them ; differ from his Right Hon. and ',tinned Friend and it you attempt to eonciiiate them further by (the Attorney General) who spoke last night. In panting the prayer of this Petition, you shut )nia• answer to the several arguments, " that a Protect- eyes to the interests of a million of Protestant, ant King could not have a Roman Catholic in his whom your ancestors encouraged to settle in tha: Councils." upon the cardinal virtues of prudence, country, to whims both they and you have promis..l and the expediency of the times, he considered the proteaion ; who are depeodent on you for the sects former as fallacious and absurd, and the construe- ray of their property, their liberties, and their reli• clan which had been put upon the latter was little, gins, and to whom, if you do not extend your pit seining, and shuffling. Any man of sense, who teaiim, they can have no safety. You will deceive thought up- - 41 the subject with candour, temper, and betray them. They will love the Protestant ass and liberal princ i ple'. and bad (examined the falls cendaticy ; that is, a P ro t es tant King, Protestant with reasoc, wadd be satisfied of the expediency of Lords, and a Protestant House of Cotrarions ; the a. the measure; be concluded by declaring, he should torm the Protestant ascendancy t I never knew ivy give his vote for this measure. with pleasure, with other ; and that I wi entlll c emen onth in ave ue to said, in proclaim w suppor h t ile ni satisFaaion. and conscientiously . have breath. G Mr. FOSTER spoke nearly as follows :—" I beg this Petition —ss It is little yon give, though it it leave, Sir, to request the attention of the H ouse to a much to them who receive."—l really think, Sir, few observations which I wish to submit to them this position ought to be inverted. What are we at the present question ; and, lam the more in- called on to gave ? a right to sit in Parliament, caned to do so, as it will be, in some degree, expla' right to fill the first of ces of the state. Is ilia aatory of my sentiments on a former occasion. I a little to give ? It it he deemed so , I call yo %N O begin, Sir, by stating the situation in which tu give all your political power, and then yol the Catholics now stand, according to the laws of will soon be convinced of the fatal consequences outs Ireland now in force respetang them. They en- not knowing Where to Stop in making coocessiont. joy, already, Sir, the elettive franchise ; and in- We have been desired, Sir, to look at the situaticn deed, I may say, all civil rights, in an equal of other countries; to look at Sully, to hick it degree with the Protestants. They now want.' Neckar. These, Sir, are fallacious arguments. Na ir' addition to those. to possess themselves of ther Sully nor Neckar were bound, by any tits political power. It is owned by their Petition, whatever, to a foreign Sovereign; the Catholics ar; this is what they require. It is owned by the and, therefore, the arginnent drops with regard to Hon. Gentleman who brought forward and so ab l y them. The lion. Gentlemati has also desired tiro supported that Petition; this is what they aim at; look at Venice. I see no kind of good in doings°, and lam here desirous to deliver my plain reasons and am at a loss to account for his washing as why I think these claims thus urged ought not to take any sort of example front a COW" to be granted. I have a right, Sir, I think, to which I think may now be fairly mond a judge of them as to the future, by what I know nation lost to the world. We have been of them from the past, and from that I do Sir, of the zeal and loyalty of the Catholics, asi not think any further concessions should be made their attachment to the Government. I have se to the Catholics, than those they have at present. doubt of it, Sir. I know personalls several of awe What is the language, Sir, that has been held gentlemen whose names are signed to thin out to the House on this subject by the Honour- whom I know to be persons of worth and hoeing, able Gentleman who brought forward the Yeti- and of whose loyalty and attachmoit to the i;, ivy tion, and by others who support it ? Why, Sir, ment, I have not the least doubt ; but oil' Of that there are in Ireland, from three to four millions the prayer of the P e t i t ion ou g ht not to be 01" of men, who, they say, form nearly a fourth pa rt of ed. I could wish that the I lono oro hl e Genaanas His Majesty's European subjeas, and that you would pay a visit to Ireland, and stay there s ought to grant to those four millions the prayer of months. He would then be a witness to ate f es eel * their Petition, because you should endeavour to ings of the honest loyal Protestants, an d wouid unite their affeEtions, in order to attach their zeal that they %vete not wanting in loy alty and Awls and loyalty to the Government, and to secure ment, and that they deserved the prate tion of ( ' d those men to stand firmly by you in time of verninent and the Legislature also, aping any far war. Sir, I do say those men are already. at- ther claims of the Catholics I conceive, Sir, there* tached by their zeal and loyalty, and that they much danger in this q ue s tion. I consider it as tendirl have hi t h er t o uniformly stood by us without our t o break down the pale ot ihe constitution and ' claims. The viaories of Lord Nei- this i. the first attempt. I think we slniuld beeP •• ;Jinn! granting these cl_ son and Lord Hutchinson, in Egypt, are proofs of this, for they were gained chiefly by the Irish, in our fleet and army, and yet you are k old you must totter and throw down your Constitution, in order to gain those men you had before. What is it; Sir, the Catholics get by it ? I will tell you ; they will obtain what the great mass of them will never bone. fit by, and know not the meaning of the word; view tile old adage, p;illoair u.Ssta, and intineJtat. give the Catholics to understand that we e.1^ 74 grant the prayer o; their Petition; and, th erefvti will not deceive them by holding out any tallsoo°' hopes on a subjeet so truly important and intercsi4 to the whole empire." Mr. LEE said a few word. in explanation. Mr. G. PONSUNI3I—" hiving 101 l bits ~A. ....