The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1805-05-15 00:00:00

I ex- ' n te.l with the feat abilities of the Right °II"' I.m in who is just sat down, I might, 11° , 1 h '. oCrendtespAir of encountering him successfully, t previously received the assistance of "es;"e 4 e d " together as able as himself; for I s e c°aniisc l y . thew that one half of the Right osnenrah e (c":ntitjteeman's speech has incontroverti. other. lie has told us of answeredof Lord Nelsen and Lord flutchin ' 11* tol‘lare'(:so glined b the end fforts a assistance whic y h he draws a conclusive of r t of e y n o f the 'l o wer orders of the sa e r, jt e a lso convinced of the loyalty er the highe r orders of that body, he is de- orminedto e wer,' it, by refusing. the prayer of eteon , A n d l a rval, and a era 91 lee.r ! h e ar ! / . thgir lle h i a ' s also in f or med us what is the Xrotestant c oo. Staati On e —the it is a risteSt3i, t 1,, Protestant An P r otestant Commiins_ana h m most Lan" a nd e e ebnely pointed out to us the taainnieirtcriar a l"rote Counsellors. But ra stonKing, sroolided by Ca tholic p ur S ir, who is to ef that ? The a nswer is obvious. This very Pro testant King himself.---I;he Right Honourable Centlemal seems whe in fear . safety of t h e Hanoverian succession. Who , {' Sir, is to coas tal. prince of the House of Hanover to P ei -- 1 h i mself with Catholic advisers and a surround It must he himself phone who can Catholic Council? d o this—nest if ever a once could be foundtrust, who would so fir attempt to destroy high re h by c husing advisers who sh ould en. reawsd Dini on i r to subv ert the Constituti on , or to change t he nature of t he Government in c hurch and state, I believe there can be no doubt but in this House there would be found many who would take a pride in moving t o punish such ad visers. The Right Ho nourable Gentleman says, that if you grant the raver o f this Petition , they will not be contented ; pro p; sn of latc • It he adduces the various concessions heretofore made to the Catholics ; he says the as sertion made by an Han. Gentleman, that it was little fer as to grant; but much for them to receive," ought to be inverted ; and he tells us also, that if we give them all we h.ive, which is but little, With ! that little they wiU overturn the Constitution and the Government, In church and state. The Right flonourable Gentleman tells us that if 50 or GO Catholics obtain scats in Parliament, there will be much danger. In what that danger is to con see lamat a loss t o discover. But ow are these .st) or 60 to obtain seats in parliament ? What is to become of the Protestant gentry What is to be come of their tenantry? Who are the persons that are to return those Catholic; ? The teas of it is most futile; for my .own part, 1 really believe' there would not be ten Catholics returned in as many years. The Right Hon. Gentleman allows, how ever, that if even 100 Catholics should obtain see. in this House, their efforts would be nugatory, er of very little avail against the other 555. But, Wing they have no weight or influence equal to what they expected, they heconse discontented here too—and woat do they do ? The Right lion. Gent. by a peculiar. kind of logic, - 'hews, that they • will .I.;,ssolye the Union. After having used their talrnu, their unanimity, and adherence to each other, without Any avail, they contrive to dissolve the Union in spite of the 555, and send themselves back Wand, there to form a Popish Parliatittni 4, loud hash, and era tf hear, bear, hea o r ! ) There is some- at thing ridiculous ; I beg pardn, Sir, for using th word ; I mean not the slightest disrespelt to any Gentleman, more especially the Right Honourable Gentleman, to whose argument I am particularly alluding, and for whose personal charafter I en tertain the highest respea and esteem ; but I can rot help saying there is same ping not only ridi celous, but contemptible, to hear Gentlemen argue that there is any actual danger to the Consti tution or the Government in Church and State from admitting a fewCetholics to have seats in Petliament. I have, Sir, however, heard arguments used in this House, which have made on my mind a most deep impression, and from which, one would be led to think that some men were sent here only to circulate c tunnies, and to draw the most odious piCtures of the character of our common country. I have heard 'hernias of tbe Irish peopledescribed as blood-thirsty, ignorant, and ferocious, and that this applied to the 1 iwer orders in particular. I have heard as much ed, Sir, in another place, but I did not feel it with so much pain or indignation there es I did with shame here. I cannot but feel sorry to hear such a char After given of a body of peo ple, who, under so meny disadvantages as they have had to contend with, are, in my opinion, the very re verse of what they have been described; and I think one of the strongest proofs is, that those who have given chit chars ter of them have returned to Ireland; and I defy any person living toistove a single instance iht yrhich the people, who have been thus degraded, have ever expressed the least personal resentment, Sr inflieed any personal vengeance. A Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Attorney General) mid yesterday, that if he had been in His Majesty's councils at the time, he would have objeaed to the /Why* franchise being granted to the Catholics, and also to the establishment of the College of May nuoth. This latter objeftioo, I own, struck me most forcibly. Whet would the learned Gentleman do with the Catholics ? Would he have them brought up in the grossest ignorance ? Would he permit them no place of education, by which they might berendered useful members of 110Ciet y, and good and loyal subjeets ; or would be have them sent out of the country to be educated in the seminaries of that Pope, of whose principles lie has so great a dread, sad to whose power he thinks it necessary to op pose such strong and formidable bars ? I am heartily glad, Sir, the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman did not form a part of His Majesty's Councils at the period when those salutary measures took place, and I sincerely and devoutly hope he never will be con 1114ed on any future occasion of a similar kind. So much having been said, Sir, of the danger of a Pro testant King being surrounded with Catholic ad 'ober, ; I would wish to suppose an instance which may, perhaps, place the subjca in a somewhat different point of view. I niil suppose there should be A gentleman born and educated as a Catholic, who should be possessed of very superior talents and endowments; that he was an excellent scholar; . a good historian ; a great financier; an accomplish ed gentleman; and a complete statesman; and that a Protestant King, understanding all this, should coso to employ him ; would it 4ul be an aA of folly or madnest, et both, in this taut, after the King had thus taken him into his confidence, if he shoeld advise his . Sovereign to adopt any measure that might tend to overturn the constitution or the state ? It would most unquestionably ; and such an adviser could not possibly escape being brought to condign punishment fur his attempt. It would be the same if there were more Catholics in the Council ; an'. it is ridiculous to suppose chit the would forfeit the confidence of their King, and draw on their heads the hand of vengeance. and punishment more than l'iwes• ant, would. lint it seems, Sir, in the opinions of some Hon. Gent Linen, that Catholics are unlike all other men, that they are not to he believed on their oaths. Other Dissenters of various classes may be believed on their oaths, but a Catholic never ; like the lover, " if eesweers, he'll certainly deceive." The Rt. Hon. Gent. who spoke last allows that many of those who have signed the Petition, he knows to be " men of worth." Yet the idea of a Catholic not being to be believed on his oath, can surely form no part in the character of a man of worth—nor can any man ever he entitled to that charatier, of whom such an idea can be seriously entertained An objeaion has been urged against this Petition, on the ground of its not being signed by any of the Catholic Clergy. I believe the true reason to he this—the Catholics wished to have this measure understood, as it is re ally meant, a respectful Petition for a civil right, un connected with their religious tenets ; and therefore it was not signed by the Clergy, because it was consi dered as an aft relating solely to the laity of that per suasion. I have a hook in ml pocket, Sir, out of which I will beg the leave of the !louse to read a few shop 1 eett eels. I am aware that it is not the most agreeable thing to trespass on the patience of the House, by reading books to them; lent there have been so many gross misrepresentations circulated against the tenets of the Catholics, in order to raise pre judices against this case, that I must intreat your in dulgence. It is, Sir, a Roman Catholic Prayer Bonk, which the Clergy put into the hands of their flock, and out of which they perform their devotions: ( Here 3/r. Pensonty read a renunciation of the rehobes, which went to slam, Mat then, do nut think the POPE ra or that thra are or casts be dikpensed ha an„ oa r, for any act of criminality, or breach of the Inwi of mo rality. Also, en orb, vzhich revs, In express terms, that they do not behest , in Me Info;tibility y" the Pope, and that thco owe allegionce to the King, antler whore Government they lice ; that the Port cannot give them dispensation . from that °A l liance; but then are bound to _fight for, and posed their King and Lis Government ageilst all enemies, even though the fort himself should enter the kingdom, at the head of an invading at ) Mr. Ponsonby continued—" It these, Sir, are not Sa tisfactory renunciations and abjurations of all those absurd tenets which have been attributed to these people, then, I think, no such can be framed. 1 be lieve there is not a parish priest in Ireland who has not taken this oath, and, God forbid they should think they were not bound to perform and etrialy adhere to I'. But, Sir, if this dreadful character of the Catholics were true, I think the Protestants in Ireland mast be the strangest set of ings that ever were formed. There are, sir, at this very moment, according to the articles of the Union, a certain num ber of noblemen and gentlemen who swot Vfer to this country to attend their dilt!l hilrailiaments their aria, peftlps, somewhere about ono. hundred. and this, MISC of thems their propel ty, their chil dren, and even in some cases their wives, under the care and proteaion of Catholic servants, who, if they were the wretches which some persons describe the lower orders of the Irish Catholics to be; WV should be the most unfeeling and carelesi guar dians of all that is most dear to human nature, to trust than in the care and custody of those who are under the immediate influence of their priests. and these men are not to be believed ou their oaths. Bat, Sir, I will be bold to say, never was there so foul a misrepresentation, and so gross a caltimoy, as this against the luish Catholics. I know them well ; and I know, at the same time, that whatever there is good ia them, they owe to themselves—whatever there is bad in them, they owe to you. Yes, Sir, I will say, it is owing en tirely to your bad Government. I have many friends and near connections here, Sir, for whom I ' feel the highest respect, and most affectionate re gard. I love this country, Sir, and would do every thing in my power to serve it. But I will not ast• ter it. You have governed Ireland badly. That country has long appeared to you in the light of what has been called a boar. You have viewed it as a cast off, not worthy your notice or regard, and so Ministers got rid of the trouble of it, they did not care how, or in what way. I believe, Sir, I can trace the origin of this mis government of Ireland to ancient tones, and that its rise is to he attributed to commercial jealousy. In days of yore, those who composed the mercantile world were imbued with the moon, that the poorer you could make other countries, the richer would be your own. Ireland, unfortunately, imbibed this notion. At the time of the revolution there woe; a dispute between two families which should possess the Government of this country. and Ireland became MU unfortunately involved in the contest. I do not mention this, Sir, with any intention of throw. ing the smallest degree of blame or censure on your ancestors. T merely adduce it as matter of historical fall, to shew how the Irish have been treated for so long a series of years. From those who are mere men, you can't expect the actions of superior beings. You can expect the virtues of freemen from slaves ; and whets I reflect on this, in stead of being astonished at the situation of the Irish Catholics, I am lather surprised that they have been able to conduct themselves so well as they have done. lam not surprised, hoverver, that they now petition; but I am very much surprised that a petition has not been presented long before. I own I am surprised the petitioners were Catholics, because I think the Protestants should have volun tarily brought it forward. That would have pro duced the h.ppiest effeas, and have shown a confi dence highly honourable to them. Power, in itself, is at all times dangerous ; but when you suffer one sea to lord it over another, you cannot wonder if the feelings become warm and animated, and if discontents and jealousies are the consequence. Let us now, for a moment, Sir, consider the policy of Frunce. Fn. est eh haste thweri. Bonaparte has formed an alliance with the Pope, who has been at '• aud Ablated in placing e crown of the P empire on that Eifipenes head. The Pori.; Ca thoi;r is the established religion of Franc, and yet Protestants are there ailmi..silde to all (Aces of honour, trust, aid priifit, as well as Catholics. Some persons affea to think. and do tot scruple to say, they can put more faith in Protestants than in Ca. tholics. Let us see how far this is consonant with reason, and justified by the test of experience, so far as relates to ourselves. Prinien and /Norio, in the last war, were both our allies. The former. a Pro testant Prince, took our subsidy, and cheated us of our money, by withdrawing himself from ow alliance and the war; the latter, a Catholic Prince, bravely and honourably stood by us, till he could fight no longer. In the last war, Sir, France lost al most all her American or West India possessions i but the rulers of that country, like wise politicians, in order to make themselves amends, turned all their attention to making themselves strong in Europe. They therefore added Holt Ind, Flanders, Italy, and Switzerland, to their former territory ; and when a peace took place, the greatest part of what we had taken horn them in the East and West Indies was restored to tbem.• Bonaparte well knows now that whoever is strong in F.urope must ultimately have the East and West Indies. It is that which forms the strength and power of the political t ree—it is that which gives the lofty head and magnificent foliage, and which enables it to spread its branches the m ost distant quarters of the globe. Europe may truly be called, Magna Mater Vining ; and as our enemy has turned so much of his attention to the consolidation of his power in Europe, we ought to follow so wise t policy and do the same. ~hove all, Sir, we ought as much as possible to consolii date our strength, by uniting the affections of all ranks and descriptions of persons among our selves. And unless you think you will or can over turn the Constitution, by admitting a few Catho lics to sit in Parliament; you will do a most politic ad by granting the prayer of this peti tion, and thereby uniting in affedion and political harmony every description of His Majesty's sub kids, who will c heerfully join heart and hand,and lay down their lives together, should it be necessary, in defence of that Constitution and Government under which they all enjoy the benefit of equal laws." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER— " Sir, feeling as I do, favourably disposed to the general principle of the question. but differing, at the same time, in some respects from those who have brought it forward, I must take the liberty of stating the grpunds of my conilud ; and in the first place to express my satisfaaion at the temp er and moderation with wh ich the subject has been discussed. • This temper and mo deration will, I hope, continue until the close of the disi.ussion ; and I am the more anxious that they should, as of all the questions that could come before the House, the present is one in which it is the most essential to avoid all heat and animosity. I am happy also, that the manner in which it has been brought forward relieves me from a difficulty, which I bad some reason to fear I might be obliged to encounter. lam happy, Sir, to tind, that the right has been gitTri . up ; and anat.' r:idisitre., that it is sr. '.7 upon the wound of expediency that uestiou can be passed. I have always con sidered, that the Catholic claims, or demands, for as to the phrase, Catholic Emiticlpaticin, I have el. ays contended, it did not apply to the merits of the case, and was not descriptive of the state of the Irish Catholics ; I say, Sir, I have always conside red that these claims were matters of expediency, and not of right. I think, however, that the ground of expediency, as urged by the Hon. Gentleman who ripened this debate, and by those who have succeeded h.ro, is so slight, that it scarcely differs by a shade from the assumption of a right. On the c,nitrary, I think there is in fad a great dioinaion between right and expediency in the 'present case, and that whoever takes a fair and accurate view of it can be in no danger of confounding them. In every case where the sobjed matter is of a private nature, there the principle of right must prevail over every other ; but in a question where the objea is of ge neral interest—where the highest and most im portant offices in the state are to be given away, where the franchises are extended, and great public trusts are reposed, these are done for the sake of the public, and not of the individual; and, therefore, in all questions relating to tests or laws, that which, upon the principles of liberty itself, we are bound to consider, is, what is hest to be done under all the circumstances of the case, never, at the same time, losing sight of the imerest of the individual, but keeping it in view, and promoting it, as far as it is reconcileable with the interests of the State. Therefore, it is not sufficient to look at the tight, if even such had been preferred, upon the present occasion, but to see, unati all the cir cumstances, how the giving or with-holding the highest offii:es in the state, and the other privileges sought by the Petition, may operate with respea to the country at large. Feeling that unanimity was. of all things, the most desirable, and most conducive to the strengthand happinessoftheEilipire,and wishing, therefore, that all laws imposing distinctions which might endanger or prevent that unanimity, might be abolehed. I could not be supposed to be friendly to their continuance; yet I felt that in an possible case, previous to the union, curls' these privileges be given to the Irish Catholics, consistent with the Pro testant interests in Ireland, and the tonne Linn be. Lenten that country and England. After the union, I viewed that circumstance in a totally different light. My declarations, and the principles which I maintained upon that sitbjed, have been truly stated by my Right Hon. Friend behind me.. I was friend ly to the measure, but 1 gave no pledge. (Hear Hear!) Any Gentleman has it in his power to refer to my sentiments upon the subject when he pleases, and I think he will find that my statement is correct The line of distinction which I drew was, that after an union, these privileges might be ex tended to the Catholics with mare safety than before such a measure; that they might be I brought forward with more chance of success, and that, in the event of a refusal, the result would be attended with less danger. I certainly was of opi nion, that under the circumstances of an united kingdom, they might be given with such guards and restrictions , as •would render the bison safe to the country, effectual to those who received, inno cent to those by whom it was conferred, and con- ' 1 ducive to the strength, unanimity, and prosperity of the empire. If &con:mutates permitted me to enter . . ~ e into detail, I think the discussion of the question •• would chew that after an union, the claim, of tne Catholics, if granted, would not give them each a preponderance as would endanger the Cottstipleion. When I say this, I do not, however, shut my eyes to the argument, that the Catholics would. under any circumstances, endeavour to advance their own re ligion: That they would disclaim any such view or intention, for a time, sincerely iribelieve ; but that they might fail in that resolution. that they might s verve from that purpose, I also believe. It is the na ture of the human heart to lapse into those pursuits • which must be grateful to it, and I do not complain because I may apprehend this consequence. My idea is, that, with proper guards, restrißions, and provi sions, that danger might be avoided, and the grant be rendered at once safe and efficient to every • purpose. I do not mean to say, that the Catholics were engaged as Catholics in the rebellion that re ceded the Union. Ido not mean to say, that it was a rebellion springing from religion, and not from jacobinical principles. Ido not, on the °they hand, mean to say, that religion might not have had some influence, and that Priests in their ignorance, their prejudices. and their bigotty, did nut aggravate the evil, though they did not constitute its soerce. But if we could guard against the danger of jaco binical principles, mixing themselves with religious distinaions, if we could guard against the ignorance and bigotry of priests, so as to make them the in struments of the loyalty and attachment, of the Ca tlvilici.to the Government, and so many links of connection between them ard the state, instead of the means of separation, and agitate rs who, by in fusing their prejudices, divided the Catholic trom the Protestant, and alienated him from his duty; that 1 conceived would be a wise and liberal sys tem to pursue. But that, in prosecution of this plan we should ad abruptly and inconsiderately, I never intended. We were not to throw at once every tning into confusion ; but my idea was to impose checks and guards which, while they secured against the danger of the innovation, would provide, additional nneins of defence for the country, ensue the respen due to the Protestant Clergy, and en-, tend a proper influence to the Roman Catholic com munion. These, Sir. were the views vehich I had with respeiSl to the Catholic claims, and if it woo pot sible to carry that system intoeffea, and a person could be found at utsce willing and competent to digest that system, and prepare a code that should embrace these objets. I think such a nieasore would upon the whole have been advantageous to the Empire. But e when I state this, 1 must say, that I coesidered the time of the Union favourable to the acconiplishment . of the purpose ; and upon this ground, which I then stated, an expectation must have been Dell; ally excited, that the Catholic could not have eptertained before the completion of that measure. I thought besides, that the secusity derived by the Protest : sots of Ireland from the Union, by,incnrporating th=in with the British Empire, and that under ti=e :cr. so of how much the Protestant interest of Ireland must, in consequence, preponderate over that cf the Irish Catholics„ the great obstacle of the Caolnikcs was removed. I did, theiefore, hope, that if it had !. en in my plume to bring forward tireseclaims without reviving th Jealousies and :animosities, Without dolling a col lision of those contending feelings on the . part cif Catholics and Protestants, the renewal in evisieto cannot be too much deprecated, or too canefully avoided ; the besiness mieht be Brought to a happy issue. Unfortunately, however, in my lapilli( n, circumstances have happened to prevent me, net only from bringing it forward in the way in which .t ought, in the surly way which would afford hope of success, but in which it could be done with out great collateral danger. What these ch curls stances arc, 1 have already, I hope. sufficiently ex plained; and I di no hold myself bound to enter into further parti esl as upon the subjea. I can only say, that the circumstances, as long as they should continue, ate such, I felt it imoossible for me to be a party in pressing and agitating this glicition. Besides, the essence of the mea sure which I had to propose was of conciliation and unanimity, and, therefore, nothing could in duce me to agitate the question, and produce an aggravation of those diffoulties. the removal of which was my great ohjed. These circurestaces then existing, i felt a determination, .upon no ac count to 'wen the questiolo unless it could be car ried with the unanimity necessary to give it comi r lete effea. lam not visionary enough to suppose that it could be carried at any time with universal con. concurrence. AU I could expel we., that the diffi culties in the way might be so smoothed, as not to lead to dagger. If it could he carried with such a degree of unanimity as this n it would he well; but I see very little, indeed, I might say. no chance of cars rying it as a measure of con ciliation, peace. and unanimity; and it not so carried, it wend be likely to revive old animosities, and prodode all the evils that follow expetations raised npnn false grounds, and the distippintment that must a course ensue. As to carrying it with general concur rence, by qualifying the Catholic, withcut of end ing the Protestant, by fastening the affeaions 1 - one class of subjeas, without loosening the hold which we have of the hearts and affellions of another, in whose welfare we are at least penally interested, and whole interests we ale at least equal ly bound to consult, is what Ido not hope. On the contrary, the impression upon my mind is, that the discussion of the subject, tinder the present circm u st ances, can do no good, and may Jo mischief. Looking to all the classes of Protestants in this country, and in Ireland, I thir.k that this is the most unfavourable time in which the measure could be brought forward—and were f to say, that. at no time could it be urged, when the discussion would produce more mischief, I do not think I shouid en counter much difference of opinion. The present state of men's minds does not afford any inducement to bring it forward with a chance of meeting no opposition, Akre we not all :mare the . , ever since the Cuing. it has been, more or less, in public dis cussion. aver since the notice of the rearm prc reeding wassiven, it hes been a subje4 which ba , , a peculiar degree occupied the pu".lic mind ; and, front I that have been able to learn upon the business, and my own observation, it does ape pear to me that the public sentiment is strong and ;Jut's' against the measure. But that this is a fatal (skied: win l do not say. What i aeoOrAble Pirtmin *ince* may hereafter occur IQ 4u Hi te te iris adoption, . • ' ~.e . any fur r, there's terjag I .er.d ate" betP . medi ! re coot therern A fakl 3 s e e rcsA lung l'its t By zone. 1J as