The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1805-04-26 00:00:00

eltarge his dety in representing the MN to His Ma= Mr. WI lITBRE ID expressed mnch sorrow that the Rigle H tn. Gentleman, after the solemn man ner in which the Resolutions were carried to the foot of the Throne, should not feel it his duty to pro. t eed further ; lie, however, thought he should not be doing his duty to the public, if he allowed the matter to rest there : Iv:, therefore, gave notice that he would, on Tuesday next, move to take His Ma jtty's answer into consideration. seLe.c.T COMMITTFE. Mr. WHITBREAD rose, and spoke to the fol lowing purport It now becomes my duty, Sir, in consequence of the notice I gave when the House last met, to submit to their consideration the motion I then mentioned ; especially as the Right Hon. Gentleman has this very night prematurely in one sense, and, as I may say, tardily in another, given notice of a Motion he intends to bring forward on Monday next for a Committee to enquire into the Military Expenditure of the country. Why the Right Hon. Gentleman has determined to take this s tep, I cannot tell, unless it be that he wishes to get the management of the business entirely into his own hands, and to settle it as he shall think proper. This indeed ought not to appear to me very sin- Euler or extraordinary , for I very well remember , a t some years ago he took a business out of my hands, and, after affeaing to take it up on a more extensive scale, and to give it a very large scope in deed, he literally fini sh ed it by doing nothing at all, (We suppcse the Hon. Gentleman here al -100 to the Motioniat brenght forward respecting the Poor Rates.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the House, it is his intention to institute an In quiry into *lithe Public Offices : with all my hear!, I here not theslightest objeCtion. F ieim what basal ead y 4 been discovered, mach may, indeed, be expeEted. I only hope and trust that the Commissioners will be armed sold invested with the same pees crs as the Commissioners of Naval Liquiry possess-1; and if they discharge the tru-• . be repose.] in them with the same fidelity, fi .nness, and integrity, as the others have done, I think the Committee cannot be too soon appointed. But, Sir, the Right Honour able Geteleman at the same time ea us, he had boos that, us the course of this investigation, it would be found that no peculation. in these other offices heve taken place. I must own, Sir, that I enter e:n no such flattering hopes ; tor, after what has appeared, I think it is almost in vain to expeCt it; the rare so as an Honourable Gentleman has told the House that Lord Melville had a fair oppor tuuity "(making a very large fortune, had he been se inclined. How my Lord Melville should have that opportunity of making a large fortune, unless by means of the public money, I am at a loss to gam; and if it was to be done by that means, 1 ran hardly flatter myself that the prat - flee fro been confined to any one department.— With re.gard to the immediate objeft of the motion I have now to bring forward, I need not, I think, enter at any length upon it, as the Right Honourable Gent. has said it is not his intention to oppose it, though I must own there are some points in it. which are of delicacy, and some which immediitele /implicate the Right Honourable Gentleman him self. Before I say more c e the subjeet, I think it necessary to mention to the louse the reason which satiated doe introduce the name of Mr. Wilson into this debate. I asked the question of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite to me (Mr. Can ning), whether Mr. Wilson was dismissed, because I was of opinion that the Right Honourable Gentle man 61 not aged with becoming repett either to the House, or to the Commissioners, who have so laudably and honourably discharged the trust re posed in them by the House, in retaining him its his office, after the Commissioners had given it as eleir opinion that he ought to be dismissed. He refused to answer the questions put to him, and the Right Honourable Gentleman excuses him for so doing because he was not bound to answer what might dive him in legal guilt. I say, Sir, this is no e (else. Are nitnesses allowed any such excuse in a Court of Justice? No, Sir; and lam sort y the Commissioners did not commit him for his refusal. But, Sir, the fa Et is not so. We have the explana tion of Wilson himself, and by that it appears evi dently that in answering the questions put to him, he could not hive eliminated himself, for he afled merely as a deputy. I hope, however, after what his passed to-night, the Right Hon. Gentleman will be in his place when my Hon. Friend brings forward his vote of thanks totheCommissionersfor theiclabo rions and honourable services, and that he will then fairly tell the liouse,whether he does not think they deserve it. It has already been said, that the Hon. Admiral, who is at the head of that Commission, ought to be dismissed from it, because he declared he was sorry he had not committed Wilson. I too him truly sorry that the Commissioners did not com mit him. I think they ought to have committed him and Mr. Mark Sprott also; and I have no doubt in my own mind they had full power so to do. lam not aware, Sir, that it is necessary for me to trespass any further or, the time of the House, and I shall therefore move ' 4 That a Select Committee he appointed to make a further inquiry into the tranme.inne contained in the Tenth Report of the Commmeonem of Naval Inquiry, and to report the same with their nbservatioill and comments to the House." The question being put from the Chair; The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rase and spoke to the following purport : 's I do not rise, Sit, to oppose the present motion, though I cannot say it is exa&ly such as meets my approba tion: inn before I say a word 2.s to the motion it self, I think it necessary to trouble the House with a few observations on what has been said, as to the notice which I have given for Monday next. The Hon. Gentleman has accused me of having prema turely taken that notice out of the hands of an Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who had given a similar ole previous to the recess ; but I appeal to the re colleetion of the House, whether that Hon. and Learned Gentleman's notice was not expressly con ditional ; that if, after the recess, I did not bring forward such a motion, he would. I appeal also to the recollection of the House, that when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman first made his motion en the subjcsi, I said most explicitly, that I had nn other objeetion to the nsotion,than its being brought forward at so early a period of the Session; but tbatif the Commissioners could not close their labours before the crd of ;he Session, I would certainly bring for ward a :notion to the satue effeet, for continuing • • that Commission. now, Sir, difived to an advanced period of the Session, and as the Corn missioners have not gone through their labours, though there are some points in the consiu& of the Commissioners, which in my conscience I cannot approve, yet I think it necessary, in candour, to de clare to the House, that those points I attributeto mis take, and I have no difficulty in stating, that after the circumstances which have appeared, it is absolutely necessary to have an inquiry which will chew the impartial and dispassionate judgment of the House, and be the foundation to acquit or condemn, and even punish, those who may be found guilty of any peculation; of the public money entrusted to their care. In so multifarious, so great, so exten sive, and so stupendous an expenditure as ours is, and unfortunately has been for many years past, I am afraid we cannot expel that every thieg should be exaaly regular; but 1 am sure the House will apply themselves to the subjeft with pa tience, impartiality, and justice, and I am clearly of opinion, that if, after the labours of the Commission- ers,it is deemed by the House that a further inquiry is necessary, it should certainly be done by a Selea Com mittee, especially as the Hon. Gent. has said, that I am myself implicated in these transattions. I have now been many years in a high official situation, and hope I shall not be accused of vanity when I say, that I flatter myself the public will give me credit for not having been a party to any cot rupt proceed irgs whatever. I trust my friends will do me the justice to believe, that whatever may be the implica tions or appearances from the transallions of others, my conduct has been free from every imputation of that kind ; and I have no doubt that, whenever the inquiry is made, it will he equally apparent to all the world. I have no objeftion to the Motion of the honourable Gentleman, but only to the indefinite manner in which it is expressed. The Honourable Gentleman has given notice of another Motion which he intends to make, that the Attorney General may be ordered to prosecute Lord Melville and Mr. Trotter, in order to recover hack the money they aresiipposed to haveobtainedfrom the public finances. I suppose, therefore, this Motion cannot be meant to e.. end to proceedings under a Bill of dis ' covery. I conceive the objet, therefore, to he an inquiry into the amlication of money ap propriated to naval services having been diverted from those, and applied to other purposes. I have therefore drawn up a resolution, which I thi:ik will answer evt•-y aim and end of the Honourable Gen tleman's motion, which distinctly specifies the cir cumstances he has in view, without at all interfering with the proceedings against Lord Melville and Mr. Trotter, and I believe the hest mode in which I can use it will he by moving it as an amendment." Mr. Pitt then read his amendment as follows: " That a Seleti Connut!-e se appointed to enquire further imosiw:h parts of the Tenth Report as relate to the appli:atlun of money granted for Nasy services, and applied to ether branches of the public service. And also to any communica tions that may have been marls to the Chancellor of the Ex chequer er to the Lords of the. Treasury, relative to any irre gularities in the mode of drawing the public money granted for the service of the Navy from the Hank, and to any proceeding. , that may have been ta►en fir the recover. of the arrears 'lie from the late Mr. -Tellico., and to report the same with their opinion to the those " Mr. FOX said the Right Hon. Gent. who had just sat down. seamed to imagine, that if the House should be of opinion to order a prosecution by the Attorrey-General, that then they should not gu into a Committee. He differed from him in that resped, and thought they ought to proceed immediately ; but the gre it ohject was, if they went into inquiry at all, they should do it as men who are determined to go through with what they had begun ; and should evince to the world, that if they did set on foot inquiries, they were in earnest, and would prom& and support all those in whom they reposed so sacred a trust. He paid a high compliment to the honest. honourable perseverance and inflexible integrity of the Commissioners in training the Tenth Report, when it was to be recolleaed that the result was to crimimee one of the most powerful men in the kingdom. The objea of the House at present was, to take care that whatever farther inquiry was instituted, it should not fail to be anted on with equal integrity and pertinacity, and that whoever might be appointed Commissioners should be sup ported by all the weight, power, and proteCtion of the House. He thought the House was rather in a carious and somewhat extraordinary predicament. If the Attorney General was ordered to prosecute, the House could not tape& after the• part he had taken in the present and late debates, in which this subjeet had been introduced, to find in him a wry zealous eivocate. As to the inquiry itself, and the appointment of the Committee, he, for one, certainly could not doubt that these Hon. Grade men opposite to him ss ill, after what they have said. cheerfully come forward and vote for the same Commissioners. He hoped, however. the House would look with a jealous eye to this appoint ment, when they recolleeted that the Right Ho nourable Gentleman who is to bring it for ward was a person who had avowed himself in some degree a friend to the very man whom the House had already censured. NVhen all these cir cumstances were fully, fairly, and candidly con sidered, he must own that he thought the business was in very unfortunate hands. If the Motion was to come from any other than the First Lord of the Treasury. he thought it would appear under more fortunate and promising auspices. He did not mean, he said, to accuse the Right Hon. Gentle man of any unfair pradtices ; but he could not help reminding the House, that at the moment they were exulting at the deteaion of abuses which bad hap pened under his own administration, they ought to consider whether he ought to have the nomination of those persons who are to inquire into the abuses of other public offices with which the Right Hon. Gentleman is more intimately conneded than he was with the Naval Department ; and the House should consider whether that quarter was a good one from which such an inquiry was to emanate ? The House had great reason to be jealous, and it was their particular and bounden duty to give their utmost proteaion, countenance. and support, to those who have so nobly and courageously perse vered in the discovery and deteftion of flagrant abuses, and whose inflexible integrity had exposed them to the public eye. He hoped the House N. la not, when this Committee should be ap ps.ated, stiffer them to be confined within narrow limits. The Right Hon. Gentleman had that day, for the first time, expressed his disapprobation (litho condnd This had rais- ed his suspicion, and bethought it his duty to put the House on its guard. It had been, at differen• pgiods, customary to institute inquiries in that Hulls?, which were never afterwards thought of. He alludrd to the Committee that was appointed to enquire into the state of the finances, just after the first stoppaze of the Bank to pay in cash, which had never proceeded to any researches, though it wa, now will known what they might have discovered. He thought the sithjet of the highest importance, and hoped the House would look to it with that jell nisi- it deserved. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had no atocbment to his own wordhif the Hon. Gentleman would consent to change the motions. Mr. WHITBREAD said, a very material part of the incpi;ry was, whether Lord Melville VIAS a parti cipator with Mr. Trotter ? He did not wish his two motions to clash or interfere with each other, and appealed to Vie Learned Gentlemen to say which course it would be best to pursue Mr. SI-IF.R I DAN thought the Honse ought to go into the inquiry without delay, and then might go into the motion for the Attorney General to pro secute. As to the notice given by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he could by no means think him the properest person to institute such an inquiry ; he who was in a manner on his trial as an encourager of delinquents. He understood the Rizht Hon. Gen tlemen meant the inquiry to take .place thoespeu diture of the army, barracks, &c. with all those, , the First Lnrd of the Treasury was closely conneded and implicated, and it was, therefore, improper he should institute such an inquiry. Mr. CANS I NG said, an H , ~-)urable Gentleman opposite had challenged his Right Honourable Friend to go into a general inquiry, and nnw he 1 , td ac cepted the challenge, it WAS contended he WAS wrong in doing so. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, there was nothing in the Tenth Report against him. Mr. FOX said, certainly not by name, but there was by implication ; and the Right Honourable Gen tleman had admitted that sortie part of the naval money had passed through his hands. Mr. GREY said he could not agree there' was no presumption that Lord Melville was a partici pator. He thought the reverse was the case. As to the order of the Motions, the inclination of his opinion was, that the Attorney General should pro ceed, and the Committee take place afterwards. The MASTER of the ROLLS said, there were but two alternatives for the House to choose, either to go into a Committee of general investigation, or leave the matter to be decided by a Court of Law ; if the House chose the latter, the case should go before the Court without any previous prejudice or c'i,cussion. He, however, agreed that the first wouP. be the preferable way. Mr. FOX observed, there were abundance of precedents to chew that the House has constantly ordered such proceediags to be taken upon the re port of the Committee. The question, therefore, for the HOLMe to consider was, whether they would go into that Committee, or have recourse to a court of liw.? The MASTER of the ROLLS explained. Mr. KINNAIRD considered that there were two objets in view ir. the present question : the one was to ascertain from the report what sum might be due to the public ; and the other, whether there were any grounds of impeachment against Lord Mel ville ? If, by reserve- to the one mode, the reco very of the money could only be attained, he would much rather adopt the other measure. The House was not acquainted with the extent of the guilt of lord Melville ; that was not as yet ascertained; and the Right Hon. Gentleman had intimated as much as that he did not think there were sufficient grounds for striking the Noble Lord off the list of His Ma jesty's Privy Council. He was sure the public mind would not be satisfied without the extent of his Lord ship's guilt were ascertained, for which reasons he thought the Committee should be appointed. Mr. GEORGE PONSONBY was not for re ferring the matter to the Attorney General, as he conceived it would be a dereliction of their powers to an inferior tribunal. Suppose the House had or dered the Attorney General to file an information en the Equity Side of His Majesty's Court of Ex chequer, for an account, under which he was sub jed to certain pains and penalties, as far as his knowledge of the practice went : the Defendant might demur to the information. Mr. Trotter was Paymaster and Private Secretary to Lord Melville ; suppose he had advanced several sums of money to Lord Melville, for which the latter had paid no interest, this would be a participation of the profits, and he would wish to know how an information could get at it ? He did not speak with any degree of harshness ; on the contrary, he felt as much com miseration for the parties as any man could do, but he did not think the public would be satisfied with a mere legal proceeding. Lord HENRY PETTY was against any thing which could interfere with the proceedings of the Committee ; the country had come to the general conclusion that Lord Melville was guilty ; that had been recorded by the unanimous vote of the House, which had hitherto done every thing they ought, and he hoped would still persevere. Mr. WHITBREAD said, he shonld not perse vere in his motion relative to giving instrodions to the Attorney General ; but be would still persevere in his motion with respect to the• Committee. Mr. PI CT said, he should aho persevere in his Amendment. Mr. WHI ['BREAD replied, that the Right Ho nourable Gentleman had cl.enged the grounds of his Motion ; to which Mr. PITT answered, that the Honourable Gen tleman himself had changed his grounds. Mr. T. GRENVILLE declared he should vote for the I.trge powers of a General Committee; but he would have wished a prose:ution by the Attorney General. Mr. PITT said,, hat when he proposed ,the Amendment for a limited Committee, he had ifna gined the Motion would be followed up by the se cond notice relative to the instructions to the At torney General. M-. WINDHAM declared his sentiments wete in perfect concurrence with his Honourable Frieods. in their conclusion for a Committer with large and extensive powers. Loixl CASItEREAGIi edin;tted, that the witl House ought lot to part .h its authority, unless to put it in a way in which it would be more eCec mat. He had the authority of tbe flna.Gentleman's conduft (Mr. Whitbread) that such would be the re volt of the course advised by his Right Hon. Friend ('ir. Pitt). A Court of Late, he was convinced, was the only p!.{Ce in which justice could he done between the individual and the public, so far as respefted restitution. As to the criminal part of the charge, he did not think it could be got at in a Committee. Unless the Committee entered into terms with the party to inddce him to confess, and he did not think they would or ought to enter into snch a crimped. the individual would not answer. The difficulties suggested as likelyto arise in a Coon of Justice, he conceived to be imaginary. On the ocher hand, if the Amendment proposed by His Right Hon. Friend should not be found sufficiently compre hensive, it would be competent to any Member to propose to ettead them at any time, in any partictl ler point which he should conceive necessary.— He was confident that bit Right Hoe. Friend would gladly assent in all such cases. Mr. BANKES said, it opened to him that some Gentlemen of high authority had laid down a principle which would ettrerncly limit the powers of the House. lie was told, that it was necessary to make an option between tseo course,. Now he conceived that the House Might enquire as exten sively as it pleases, and that it would be afterwards as eorsrpetent - to direel any prosecut:on as it was at that moment. He conceived that the Committee might not only do thin, but that they might reemn mcnd such prosecutions not only as may, but, I may say, as must grow nut of their own Report. It was his wish that the matter should have been sent back to the SAM! Commissioners with more extensive powers to iniestigee the same. If, es stated, a man could not be compelled in a Court of Law to criminate himself, it was possible that a legal pro cess would lead to nothing. It might also be a question, whether money so acquired be public pro: perty, recoverable by any aftion at law. He re memberedithe question was agitated in 1789, and there were great authorities on both sides the House. By adopting either course, it is possible that the country might have neither answer nor redress. Unless then it were made out to him that the en larged Committee iveuld preclude any recourse to any other means of coming at the merits, it should have his approbation. Serjeant BEST said there were many ways of getting at the truth in a Committce, that did not exist in a Court of Law. Besides, in a Court of Law, you could only compel restitution of the mo ney, which was no ceijeft, compared with public pu nishment. There was no reason astgned for re :trifling the powers of the Commitme, and if the amendment to that effeet should be carried, it would greatly disappoint the public.. Sir J. H. COX palliated the motive of Mr. Trot ter, ir. the advice which he proposed to give to Mr. Tierney, fir the prevention of similar abuses. That Gentleman, he conceived to have been much misre presented. Instead of a fortune of 12,0001. a year, and a new house building, that would cost 80,0001. he pledged himself that Mr. 'Crofter's fortune did not exceed 1,2e01. a year. Th' connelled by affinity '.vita: that Gentleman, he ' not rtmad for-. ward apologist. He did not wish to interrupt the course of justice, and he hyped that all its ends would be satisfied by this Inquiry; but he did not think he should have done hi; duty it he had not discharged his mind of these frets. Mr. TIERNEY contended that the drafts upon the Bank might be all reeular and formal, and yet the Aft be violated. The spirit of the Aft was to prevent the accumulation of money in the hands of the Treasurer of his Paymaster, before it was war•ed for the public service. Mr. Trotter drew a regular form for money for Naval Services ; but he knew that the services existed at the time only in his own imagination. The Aft also enafted, that in case of the death or removal of the Treasurer of the Navy, the b dances in his hands should imme diately vest in his successor. Now, the lodgments in the Bank of Messrs. Coutts, by Mr. Trotter, if for the immediate service of the office, would have been in the name of the Treasurer of the Navy; but not being so, in the case of death or removal, the Aft must become inoperative, for the property was not apparent, and could not he ascertained until an Administration was first obtained. With regard to the mode of proceeding, the Law Officers had given no opinion, and he wished to know how far they would un iertake could be done by the course proposed in the amendment. Unless the At. torney General should answer for a great dell, it would be more grateful to the public, were the House to take the whole upon itselt. The AT fORNEY GENERAL said, that whe ther they should proceed by iavestigation in a Com mittee, or in a Court of Justice. a difficulty would occur in either case, as the party might obieft to answer alike in both to any question that should tend to criminate himself. As to the Officers of the Crown, they could only undertake to institute the necessary process, and conduit it with fidelity. Mr. ALEXANDER raid, he respeaed public opinion as much as any man, but God forbid that the House should be driven into any measure by the force of public opinion. It appeared to bins, that a Court of Justice could give relief in the present case, and it was contrary to every principle of Law and justice to set on foot two courses of trial at the same time for the same offence. Such. however, must be the case, if the proceeding recommended by the Gentleman opposite should be adopted, for he could perceive no difference between the House threatening a trial, and actually carrying on a trial against a party Mr. SHERIDAN complained that the Amend ment proceeded upon the supposition of a vote aftually carried for sending the cause into a Court of Equity, when in faCt no such measure had been adopted. The undertaeme of the Attorney Gene ral did not promise mw n geed. 1k contended, that a Committee might send tca ;welt and record...for Mr. Couttesbooks and the B 4111 C bootie, and adopt ovie t ia other ways of getting it the truth, not in the pod cv of a Court art Equity. If a Corami•tre were so trifling a thing, how came it tb , t the Gentlemen upon the other side la:ely different opinion ? The other was rash and prematore vine without a previose tee. Now it appeared were so lately of a different right they contended, that it Mat to condemn Lord Mel- rious enquiry in a Commit- :4l 4 Committee was good tot .....amillellp ~i i Ise ;ht Inc the !or :se herd An bt- eAd. ling JER I t) ►iee. 'the