The Statesman. — London, England, 1813-03-30 00:00:00

1 .• . i f Admiraltyti e n r e s l . pr eg i The salaries of these offi ces , creditor utliyhatrwoisieil:rotmheincidirible:htallweeern . . IMPERIAL ' P.ARLumter. at present at the disposal of Parliament: not mach felt debts ea , h Ehel l, lwa i nb i cb, ot iad l w i e e oersP r s cases, as in i fix his motion for Thursday; although , -..e..- thper.nctpa. r e . and orders stood (or that day, because I great part of them was paid by foreign e rs,_ The HOUSE OF LORDS, ISlancw 29. " _ In an Appeal from the Court of Session in *fleets& W h i t- tend to trouble the I Aquae at length on cues it was an advantage that the principal resident in this country. From the noto sue and another, r. Rantsay, Bart." Mr. Mani mid Mr. No- SINECURE BILL lan, were heard for the Appellants. Further hearing to-ator- ; abuses which existed in Centel of Justice in the row. i On the Motion that the AMettdmci The Oaths were administered to the Bishop of Exeter. , cur e Bill ee now read, .. . .. - d I n n o d t ies dler t id ira for s M t o h S e t re tpart very an d t ' i t hi ha i t r . The 54004091. Exchequer Bills' Bill, the 1,500,0001. Ex- ina f -:l pal t. resit;ent i chequer Bills' Bill, the Shoplifting BM, the Canada Rum Bill, Mr. 1101 FORD oppose d the Bill and several local and private Bills, were brought up from the Opt in an indirect way it took away Commons, by Mr. Lushingtoo , Mr. Calcraft, M . of political exertion. • The offices to _ De ‘n p ti s iti ty l la ut rsha .sk t id of ba C r o e u a rt pr s other Membem, and read a first time. The Shoplifting Bill ti w i tis i " the Bill wereetojected toots thieground that th count , r is y i , b it:e f r r jtuhesti;:soilecoyulputt beeeodreaindusitlbey7eebnafloinirdc:]; order to be printed. .. On the reading of the 5,000.0001. Exchequer Billo' Bill, the" . •__ -2 creUsed the power of the Crown in that How. Duke of NORFOLK adverted to a project he had heard it was . , intended to propose, 0 provide a part of the supplies of the experieere must have taught them dr year from the Staking Fond , and trusted that seal me a l s w ould ` such offices was given rather to the not be resorted to in violation of the public faith . • were granted, than to r t w e :s fo und t he t o 13w. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, when the plan alluded t o whom they Mute. On these ground' , a n a burden even came before that House, he trusted he should be able lb satisfy ; whom they were nominally conferred . Mpra.rPtporsTOPess.lNTßiext measure. he meet oppose -----,-- ---1 - the'Noble fluke that there was no violation whatever of any 9 . Bill by confining remuneration for . principle of frith towards Ae public creditor. Mr. Newton, from the London Flour Company, Mr. Kings- those who had served a certain term, would cause a certain &Mien, • andthet time was tatiP - . - -es - a4rese . ton, from the East India House, and Mr. Kemp, from the men to cling to o ffi ce, and acquiesce under inn- of merit. To this the answer was, that . some test si r . T v/ h h e en .e l i ts 'sNte etn nEce o W lu PO me or n ßS t iT s nec a r s o tt i n f gC) r l o yallets e ' s ini fecs .PlP : l id Mint, presented several papers, which were ordered 'to lie on sures to which they could not conscientiously agree• must' be taken, Ind what test was so easy and hum. the table. • be a great burden. When to be ibol n ish re ed The Irish Butter Bill th ro u g h a Committee, with Persons who had extraordioary claims on thii public, leis,' and so little lialge to abuse, ati time?: AnY I to the extent of those fees, and for the number of anteudmeats.—Reporton Ard il ay. . it was said, might resort , to that House. But although 1 other test must be governed by chance, and time . was lives on the offices, was thrown on the Consolidated The Duke of NORFOLK presented a-Petition from Sheffield, this House might with propriety. be applied to in ' surely as good as chance. , It was said by the Noble ; y that the trade to China might be opened. ril l i ii i rt g MOUNT-EDGKCOKBE presented several 'petitions cases of naval or military merit„.yet it wag neither I Lord; that time was substituted to merit ; but this f o il s the County of Cornwall, against granting the Catholic constitutional nor expedient that the dot mu of polls 1 was not the's:age. The sinecure system was not now i Fund. Mr. H. THORNTON thought, if there Oahe without securities. by en- i thing iu•theohjections medal° the present measure, These Petitions were laid on thetahle. ; tical . men should be remeuerated or neglected as a 1 the prevalent mode of rewarding services. Partin. ! , 1 was any CURATES' BILL. - matter of party among those in that House—among : anent had been obliged to prop the system : rather thahin the opposition sought to the political friends and antagonists. Of the deserti abling Govrntnent to reward services by pension, !that the remedy was to be sought in a recommitment - The House then went into a ,Committee on the Curates' Bill , i ' •of persons in small offices, that House wati totally as in the case of the Lord Chancellor. There was ;of the Bill , present stage. Even if it might The Bishop of LONDON urgeda variety of ob- ' unable to judge. It was impossible to remunerate hardly a state of fi ce, which was not provided for in 1 , be g i ven to it i n i ts seem necessary to the Noble Lord sad the Right ejections to it, conceiving that it would operate op- justly in giving exactly the same quantum its persons ' this way ; andthe same test was taken which the nomieally h o ldin g t h e same office. Bethought this Noble Lortatemelent so much repfobaleds nameLyy I How. Oentletnan oppoe . ite that the fifteen Great Offi pressively, by the generality of its enactment, and should be -retained, might 'they not move an moved an Amendment, leaving it to the discretion of Bill an unworthy sacrifice tr i . popular chnhoer s widch kites. About 150 yaws ago, the general rule woa r e. e .i, Ainendrnent to that effects allowinglthe ether Offs. Bishop to fix the salary of the Curate at any rate, if once indulged, would perpetually e neseesch; . He ;to reward by sinecure, arid not by . petisicin —now : not exceeding 1001 per annum, including house, and should move that the Amendments be read this day the general rule was pension, allot sinecure was ces, which amount e d to 300 i n all, t o b e a l so . such portion of the glebe ss'it might be thought fit to ' s i x months. considered as an exception. It was not subordinate fished? ' give him the occupation of. Arch bishop of CAN- ! The having been put, , o ffi ces in which mere industry was all that was Mr. STEPHEN explained. On the suggestion of the Mr. BANKFei r ose and said, theft the Hon. Gen- required, not. services of mere drudgery, for which The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER saw TERBURY, supported by the Archbishop of York, dement (Mr. Holford) if he' had seen all the Bill, : this mode of reward was adopted ; but for the .no solid ehiection to the pri n cipl e o f th e Wl. could not have supposed- that no discretion was great awl high service of representing the Sovereign, Length of service, bethought, was one solid trite the Bishop of Loudon agreed to alter the maximu m . proposed in his Amendment, to 200 I• per annum. . placed in the C ro wn, o r that it was intended that iat foreign Courts precisely the same principle was jrionon: which to proceed in awarding compensation. The Earl of HARROW BY supported the original that House should be resorted to. The Bill gave no adopted.—A man, surely, who had only slept for I.A sinecure could, at the best, be only contin gen t ; . indefeasible r ight to the pension to persona having thirty years, without ever writing a dispatch, ' had 1 and' therefo r e it was adinadeqUate and precari ous enactments of the Bill, and contended for the neces , • sky of laying down a pea ciple by law , which. woul d : served a certain period in the different offices, but • sorely no great claims to remuneration for his ger- I way of rewarding services. It was too like a lottery. ensure to Curates who had the are of Parishes, stall I only empowered the Crown to grant them. It was : vices to the public. If there was arty absurdity in I Sir FREDERICK FLOOD approved of the Bill, whose duties were therefore of the utmost importance, I not 'endeavoured by the present Bill to form a per. I the proposed limitation of time, it was in that breach ! going, as it did, to promote economy, to support the an adcquete support. He denied that the Bill could 1 feet system, but to restore official remune r ation in to which the late Mr. Perceval applied it. And he present possessors of the Offices in their vested rights, operate oppressively, as these enactments would only I some degree to its natural form, by apportioning re- was of opinion that the limitation of time was the i while at the same it did no t en c r oach u po n the pre. apply to future Incumbents. He therefore opposed , word to service. As to extraordinary cases, it was most h arm l ess . It was necessary tp limit the power rogatives of the Crown, or the rights of the people. i the Amendment. • no More likely that deserving persons, a short time of the Crown in rewarding by pension, one way or • Mr. HUSKISSON could not help remarking that The Bishop of NORWICH highly approved of ! iit office, should receive sinecure offices; than that other. The principle of the• Bill was not new, as had 'it had been held out by an Hon. and . Learned Gen the measure brought forward by the Noble Earl. I they would receive pensions under the present Bill. been asserted; but was analagous to what ha d beanitle man , th a t th e b es t mo d e o f remunerating ting office was The Earl of LIVERPOOL supported the areu.l He (Mr. B.) should he sorry if the tendency of his dente before ' on this subject. If remuneration' by !'by the levying of fees, If this was indeed the best silents of the Earl of lierrowby, and also opposed the ; Bill were to exclude from political life, all persons sinecures is to be made, let it be made to merit ! mode, then was the present Bill justly objected to.— Amendment. I but those in a state of affluenee. But this, he hoped, 'of one kind or another, and that will satisfy the But if so, then must the House go a great deal far. Lord GRENVILLE insisted that it was extremely , would not Le the e ff ect, as the certainty of adequate ' p eo ple. . I•ther, and e undo alt that they had been doing for the impolitic to give the Bishops the additional power !reward, after long and worthy service, would ope- I Mr. BATHURST replied to the last speaker.. 1 last 30 years, in abolishing fees paid to the different that was by this Amendment proposed to be commit- I rate in so strong a.manner as the inducements at pre- 1 Mr. CANNING and Mr.BATHURST severally i offices in the Customs, &c. and re-enact the whole of ideated, since it would place them in an invidious I sent existing. In - this Bill he had followed the prin.' explained. ' that system which had been long agreed to be most situation, by leaving the stipends of Curates at their Icipies of Mr. Burke mid Mr. Pitt, and it they 1 Mr. PONSONBY said the . Bill of the Honottrabkt defective. optitiee The salaries at-present paid did not amount : - looked at the list of offices before 1782, when Mr. Gentleman on the floor had been very hardly dealt I Sir J. NEWPORT explained. to more than half what was by law. allowed. His 1 Burke's Civil List Bill was brought in, they would . he. The Noble Lord, tuft his adherents on the 1 Mr. FITZGERALD objected to the general prin. reason for voting for the original clause was, that , I see how moderate the alterations would be that he ' other side of the House, had allowed there were many !ciple of the 'Bill, and contended that one of the clauses it would encourage the residence of the Clergy, and I (Mr. Bankes) proposed. Mr. Pitt's exertions were i parts of' the Bill deserving of their own suepert, and in it .was a violation of a solemn coatract between thereby support the declining establishment . conducted on a principle which he (Mr. B.) follow. I therefore if they enema to deal candidly by it, they ' Parliament and the ' • Lord RADNOR disapproved .of •the whole Bill, I,ezi, viz. not *tithe view to limit the influence of the : ought to move to have it re-committed, andnot vote i l Mr.. BA NKES read' a patt Of the Preamble to tl'e because he thought that the effect would be exactly Crown, but to put o ffi ces on a fair footing. On this , f or its rej e ction. He would allow the justice of the ; Irish Sinecnre Hill, to prove, let, that there was no contrary to the expectation of the last sPeaker. prinpiple bad been made the alterations in the offices 1 argument, that the Bill would do little by wa of ' contract implied,. according; to the cowatruction of The Archbishop of CANTERBURY defended the of Commissioners for Auditing Accounts, and of In- I economy. If it bad passed some years ago, we sh ou ld' Mr. Fitzgerald ; 2d e that if any contract were In , Amendment. quest. 'that of fi ces should be maintained' merely for I now see many large sums in the hands of the public, tended, it bad been immediately violated by the Go- Lord REDESDALE opposed it. ' . ' the sake of the influence they,created, was a propo- I which had so long passed out of them. The Noble ' vernment themselves: The LOUD CHANCELLOR, at considerable sition too absurd to be maintained, and it was neces. : Lord's plan, according to his argument, was to leave j A Member, whose name we could not learn, read - length, stated several reasons which made him disap- I sary, in deference to the expression of popular feel- I these things just as they were before Parliament had i o th er . clues of the same Aet, to show that a fund of prove of the measure. Ile should attack the Bill in ing, which he would not call clamour •; because found- l interfered at all, and to restore the power, at pre- I 80,0001. had been appropriated to Sinecures by the detail on a future day. ed in justice, to show that while the necessary ex- l' sent suspended by Parliament, of greeting Sinecure t Irish Parliament, during the life of his present Ma. The Bishop of EXETER, said a few words di- pence of the official establishment of the country 1 Offices in reversion. The Noble Lord had expressed . ! jesty. rested against the lay impropriators • and was so great, all unnecessary expence should be re- I his concern that he s and those who acted with him' Mr. WILBERFORCE thought the objection The Bishop of LONDON having ;lmely replied, a trenched. This measure, th oug h no t productive of in oppositi on to Ministers, should.not have the power . which had been just started, was a last resource against division took place— - immediate saving; would thus, at no considerable' of granting offices for fire years. From the tone ; the Bi4l, the principle of which was so clear, just, Fur the Amendment (Contents) . . . IS Ageinst it (Non-Contents) 1 economy. He trusted the House would not disap- believe the Noble Lord had an idea of retiring from . look another gravely in the face, and controvert its point the public, but follow the example set them by ! office ; but he had at last qualified his speech, by 1 expediency. This Bill had received the sanction of the last. . I adding--" if they should ever be th ou ght fit to be- I the last Parliament,and one reason why he was parsi- Lord CASTLEREAGII observed, that though : come Ministers of the Crown: , Th ose w ho sat on ! lerly desirous that it ahoeld now pass was, lest an the Bill did receive the sanction of a former House, , hi s s id e o f the House, weik, however, very little , aspersion might be thrown out, that Parliament was. yet the amount of the ma jo r ity did no t exceed 7 or I obliged to the Noble Lord for his:tender concern : !more willing to enquire into and correct abuses, 8. After paying some compliments to the Gentle. ' bhe hoped, whenever they did tome into the se r. u t ;when they were about to meet their constituents, than man who originated the Bill, he observed, that al- vice of the Crown, they would never be found eager when they had just parted from them. I though even it might be countenanced in that House, 'to hunt after places, pensions, or o f f i ces; but would Mr. LITTLETON, was decidedly in favour of the it would be discountenanced in another, and there- exert themselves in exercising their a biliti es for the . i Bill. NVltatever might be said of the splendour of TIOUSE OF COMMONS. I fore it was of no use to bring the matter forward welfare of their country, and thechonour and dignity without ensuring in that other House a different re, .of the State. The great merit of the Bill is, that iti the Crown, it ought nut entirely to outstrip the re , sources of the country. Besides, the of fi ces i,i pee- The two Exchequer Bills Bills were read a third time and I . passed. , ception front that whkh it had always hitherto ex- ' wi,l give power to Parliament ip. reward real tnerit, I Two Petitions were presented from Electors of the Warnoeli ' perienced,[llere the Noble Lard was called to and will put it out of the pow of the Crown to I They might have done, and really did so formeey, . lion added nothing to the splendour of the Crown. of Weymouth, complaining of encroachment+ on their elective 1 franehhe, owl praying that peoritinas mi g ht he made to r tilla it ! give Sinecure Offices where order by the SPEAKER. The House would not in the Bill tinder the comideration of the (Temp. I allow itself to be influenced by what was done in as such he thought it worthy of his support, and of On the Motion of Mr. AIIF.RCRONI HIE, the second this I : any other House.l—The Noble Lord then contended the approbation of the House. . • ' ornament or use. One or two instances had', he was they had ceased to answer any purposes , either of log of the Admiralty Reghtrar's Bill was postponed to this day i that the (lilt • old wou , operate an augmentation of Mr. STEPHEN said he objected to the Bill, be- se taught. 1 'F;te Irish % e ar Distillation . Bill via- read a second time. i t he general oeiciel expenditure. of the country • and cause it went to cancel all previous merit. If per- cures had been beneficially bestowed ; but one or willing to admit, been pointed out, in which Ade- sir. w. et CV:I:MAID pret.enteil a Petition from sate Cum- , thouzfi it %% mild be a reduction of the powers Of the son s had rendered the most eminent services to the missinners of Wide Streets in Dublin, prayitt A the u-u.tl - graos. ; Crown, it would be no reduction of the public ex. State, and to the country, during four years, s and c orru ption. Ile could not hut notic., the monstrous two exceptions could not justify a whole system of Mr. FREEMANTLE said, that on the debate on ' pence. He agreed with the author of the Bill, how- ' a t the end of that period went out of office,,, it would 1 asser tion that the House of Comments stepped . out of the Army Estimates, he had objected to the greet , ever, that the patronage of the West India Officers be out of the power of the ,Crown to reward thril „It e p ea ppeaphere, wridinval against the improvident ed th e prerogative of the for Barracks in Ireland, on the ground that there ' should be put oil a di ff erent touting; and ime,theuglst for • *etc' put services: . He alluded' to what Mr. Clime in remonstrating was no information on thlesubject.beore the Houseel that pareof 'the treasure ought not to wait the gene- Canning had laid some stress upon; viz . an adherence : waste and misapplication of the public resources. In : The House, however, having granted the sums re. I tat f a t e , o f. th e Bill, m i e grea t objection to the to office in the Noble Lord anti his friends: The short, he considered theie offices as equally useless to quired iii confidence to his Majesty's GOvernment, I Bill was,, that it would accumulate the force of the Right Hon. Gentleman had himself been 'one of the Crown and to the country. He looked upon he should endeavour to see whether this confidence: country is the hands' of those persons who had been those friends for some years,.and 'he could Wish to them as decayed and rotten branches of the Censti . was well founded, by moviug for papers on the flub- : long . in the possession of the administration of the see him once more pass * s p arr ow strait between his . t u ti o n, which encumbered, enfeebled, and denier . ject. Be accordingly moved fur an account of the Government ; and if a new set of meta were to come present seat and that of the Noble Lord—' the parent-stoma, - aod by taking away which , we Barracks building in Ireland, their estimated total ' into office, however ; great their talents, until they C laugh]—though he shoild be sorry that his' should add greatly bo t h to i ti beauty and its expence, the sums expended, the number of troops • had held the pOwers of the State for a length of services should g o unrewarded for five years.--- 'strength. they were to contain, and the names of the survey- ' time, it would be impossible for them to discharge 'lt had 'been said elsewhere, the Opposition Intel Mr. RYDER disapproved altogether of the priii ors under whose superintendauce the wcrks wee!, the d u ti es df th e i r s it ua ti on w i t h . e ff ec t. With re- th e Right Honourable Gentleman's speeches, but , eiphenf the Bill, and Conceived, that were it not for carried on.—Ordered. , spect to the existing state of the patronage of the Ministers had his votes—" I take her body, you i the existence of sinecure places, the wives and chit- Mr. FLEEMA.NTLE then moved for an Account' Crown, if they took into consideration those cir- her mind, & c ." as th e p o et said, Ile (Mr.S.) should e i dren of the greatest Statesmen would often be rue of the Barracks rented by Government in !relate!, ' cuinstances which coun t erac t e d that patronage, he however, he glad to have both body and mind in this : d uce d -t o a b s olute starvation. the amount of the rents, and the lessors' names. I mould say that its ascendancy had not latterly in- . case ; and that while the Right lion. Gentlematil Mr. PROTHEROE• gave his cordial support to Ordered, after a few words from Mr. PEELE. I created, but that the wages of official lab our had ra. gave his side of the House his vote, he would cease Mr. FREEMANT LE also m hoved for an Account s thee suek. to favour Opposition with the assistance of i 'of meeting the challenge of tin. Mon. Gentlemais : the measure, and was glad to take this -opportuni t y -racks, and Buildings converted icor) , flar.e • Mr. CANNING said, the N o ble Lord had con- speeches. ,The Right Hon . . Gentleman had said, : (Mr. Wilberforce) to the new Member'. Ile, was f - rebind, and the number of. troops they : sidered the Bill first in the light of a question of that sinecure pl aces ex e i t e rmini were opprobrious, sorry if any vote of Ids was cited, is a proof of de le. ! economy, and. secondly as a subject of political ar- but that pension, were, not so. On this point he generacy in the present Parliament. ... SINKING FUND. I rangernent. For mauy years, a. question had been differed with him in opinion ;he thought there was Mr.•CROKEtt regretted that he had not time, or Report of the Committee on the Sinecure , agitated in that House respecting the abolition of nothing offeniive in the one more than in the ether. brought up, that the patience of the House would :not allow hint 1 Sinecure' Offices—offices 'in which no service was That high authority, Doctor Johnson, in, the first to go into detail to prove, that almost all of those .N EY said, that the Committee to en- ' done, and which were iii the eyes of the public. pe. edition of his Dictionary, had put down lOthe word, places which in this Bill were inadvertently and in. :he State of our Finances having been ob, cu li at ly grat i ng . I t h a d b een argue d on the other Pension, ‘. 4 wages given to a State Hireling foe tree- i I.correctly stated as sinecures, were • really e ffi cient inconsistent from the length of time tie- side, that though from theory sinec u res and o ffi ces son t o his co u ntry ;" and though by Isis leaving it I and important departments of the public service. , the passing of the Bill on the subject of a pp eare d cont r adi c t or y, y e t it w a s proper that the out of his second edition, it appeared that great Fund, he should giie noticeof a Motion Crown should possess th e means o f remunerat i ng L ex i cograper h a d c h ange d hi s o pi n ion, he was afraid th e l as t s p ea ke r , who was Confident that, if oppor. Ares., against which no such objections se r vices. If the o bj ec t o f th e present Bill were to ' the Public had not done tb• same, (unity were given him, he could detect the inaccu rac y but that the im. Mr. W. SMITH pointedout the inconsistency of led, viz. a Committee to consider how t a ke awa y , f rom th e C rown t h e power o f rewar di ng 1 press i on o f the f i rst st i ll remained . The Learned o f th e Bile in almost every ' perticular, and yet oh. 'ey vested in the Colemissiouers of Sink. services—if it was of an ariateoretioal tentiency—if 1 Gentleman then .adverted to that part of the Bill sjected to its commitment, When he would have all the26th, 3'2d, and 42d of the King wanit went to throw the C rowe l n l o th e power of s tell e which•proposed the abolition of West India sine- the opportunity he wished. He could not wile- ...~ ... .~'+.. yfti,. .~.. i ~1' - . '. • IW:jurit s The Amendment was accordingly negatived. Strangers were not again admitted during the dis cussion of the other clauses, on which, we under stand, several divisions took Place. The Bill having been gone through, Lord Wal singham left the Chair, and the Report- was ordered to be received to-morrow. The House then adjourned. or an Darracx racks, in Irel► would contain On the Rep Bill being bra ►` Mr. T El t.; quire into the jetted to, as i cessar), with i the !linking F for a Cummil could be urge far the money iig Fund by t . . .. , - . - -1— •-- . • nt". 'He Should y i i . . lealmonfederttet-- . -heiSould not only not cures. The :h other notices ' . !ifnelllo'inisport,lo It, bat he would typos,* as in. ; genera lly h e ' se he did.net in- ;orirtkfeClhe practice of the . Constitution . So 'for, i s id e d i n E n! )II the subject . . .kovievgfrii.lrola hewing any !wit tendency, It iNtb!ed !-111. law Snits, the Crowe. to'retynni pubfic.iervices as eilfektnallY:isl g a m s , w hil e ants on the Sine- sapid bti done by sinecures. The Pot& !do:l:Wiled i Co ur ts; grin'said, tiod 0e • hid, thatk s, pi felt bard opois Ow* lloAeptubio .In some case .4 r ,1 on tht gro ntlemen who.bad .not latere r parttcerarry should be re the ; due reward .in habits of bele n office—who lid titbit:AM bgevy •ritius abuses be hbotishetl by selfortnnifi ei so * . persevering ad tilt litslibt • ' . West lodic und that they In- hitmelf: - The Medi of remunerating for seri/Wes w eli ou td no t d bat House. But in iffiteat ; and is . sinecures had grown. info atm- .. t h e Deputy Jett gratitude for pete—whether Justly or not . he would• not pretend ' West. Indies Minister under tw.nar-41 another. and more honourable mode of !Ibis country the Crown, by : aecomplishinglire object could be found r y/by should "'and responsi d. The present it not be 'adopted? . The Noble Lori, hadimnplainediltie sUbttitut official service to . that it enabled the Crown only to reward services of I this part oft I