The Statesman. — London, England, 1822-06-22 00:00:00

all ; and that if the meante were fettered by securities, or it was e parties who had so long suffer s, that it would be a great *no- Catholic Peers late their Lord wad- Vetholies admission in the asked bow they could do this, in and 'Vase general emancipm !ley could at., short as their an fiery could leers matters as they Henry the Eighth down to the wand, during which period Ca. root :he Commons without being s. These being his opinion., be it could be argued that there ger to the State, by admitting Ca f the benefits of the State. But he 'admission to such benefits would neater*. He would not have sup eels a purpose. tie did not deal doing his object. It was not ac e and practice to pursue inch I was, that this Bill, if carried, or retard the general question. cross bench had stated his will- Catholics all the privileges that .Ith the safety of tie State. if. e admission of these Peers. it re.., what danger did arise to the in Parliament previous to the s. He could net mederstaod how the Revolution, so sanctioned repealed with safety. The No d it had been again laid down at id, and that it was, binding for , was provided for by that Act that should he taken; but it was add melded ;" which meant until the 'vide otherwise. He ate a mar t; and be thought be reeneroised It said, " the alteration most not t to strengthen security." .. . ELLOR wished to know from the le law lb whkh be referred ? had nevoid freer the measure! of p. 1115,. Act of Union. mid the book beta banded to bin by observed that !be , . of his sot.% but notes is that Mail. IA Semi silveliti bad be.. MA he Ws greeted to he iMmllistsd that is 1807= • . 4. ipzesd, they met with ell *- opposed this Bill, lapfa FaCatholics to the Army and he. with the most dangerous of If the sword. In 1817, however, d, sad the Army sad Navy were well as Protestaats. This was as !tits which" were continued from Jill before their Lordships. The erely provided that the Officers should be Protestants; there. et of those services were to be Nee coutrary to the prieciples of ran no argaiseit 'Width could up i to Nebb•Perseas, wbeee settee. greatest: services to the State, Ices groat personal claims apes latained that the ease ought to be a intrinsic merits, ad that it la. Bequest:es. He was sorry, lades^ et gel forth/el bet se It only weal Ilvidsahriglits, it was gadded int a iadividualuserib. If this Act anion Weald take dace; if It did al discaielon would corarrito after sad he hoped that time would sot a the Noble Earl to say wily this the general measure. fiesbetsgbt good as a matter of Issas se the to complain of tba ewelesioa. it &drawee to the flees% and 'fortuity to the wish h always ig its penalties buried whet se a Act would he ommiseest with pies of the Osmellatelem Policy sod it; mad Ise ememeetly hoped mild do themselves the Jasties of ezclusioalrem their books. POOL rose. He was ready to the ground choose hythe Noble down—the my *anew mead Ire eassideradespeosoribed. He. • de ids, having ow former scar ' re:• =Los=o e rmeral quips . But look are, with refireaco to the gene- 1 their Lordships to see how the Earl bad said, that this Bill was the general question, or to limit • witli respect to it. Now with. bother it was or was not right to Iles from the some peivilego that (the Earl of Liverpool) would tie bill should pass, if nothieg -(Hear, bear.) If their Lordships toy should of - course pass it; but icy should be of a contrary opi rto sanction the measure. He if nothing men than this bill could be more prejudicial to veer-(Cries of haw, bear.)— wds with respect to the Popish ; sad here ho would observe seld all the details consectej ihomnee, than himself. No mesa 4 the aefarious character of the s they were conaected—transac danclsoly proof of the effects of over the 'Wads of mem who lent traipsing wretches. Bet wicked .re in themselves. it did net follow bate given rise to salutary and ing back to the anterior part of • century before it. he Mood the on, in the reign of Edward the ' fly under some of the most pious I or any other country had ever swever, arrested by the sudden 'Milli there was little doubt that te Crown would have been firmly ul revolution took place on the Mary, who was a most rigid Ca. ppy circumstance of whose reign him to recur. When Elisabeth rn the Protestant religion was the question as to the connection benne the Church and the So. been duly considered. Though Imre', there was so law enacting Protestant Sovereign; nor was At the Sovereign from marrying ripeness was, that all these cif. to leave the Church Is a state •. that infatuated blosareb. bad olio alliance Gov his see, and got ighter of Louis XIII. a measure b the most disastrons effects. In section between the Church aid Hen decided by any legal enact was mainly so be ascribed all TAR STA TESIHA 111 die bloodshed that bad tikes place es the ground of re• ligions animosities. It was altogether a different thing ao exclude Roman Catholic Peers from that [louse, at a ' period when the King might be a Catholic himself, end to exclude them now, when by the law of the land'the ' Sovereign was obliged to profess the Protestant religion. In the one iestanee a plausibleargensent might be urged ' ie support of each • motion as the present; in the other there we. no groused whatever for it. He had already stated his opinion on the subject of the plot in which the notorious Oates had been co d; but he must ob that laws might be necessary though the events which led to them were highly culpable. Had they not some whole.ome lawson their statute books, which had passed ander one of the greatest tyrants that had ever reigned in England? Dismissing altogether the sub. jest of the Popish plot, and the conduct of Oates, be would ask, was there not in the reign of Charles 11. a emispiracy to overturn the Religion and Constitution of the State ? A very fair argument might be urged in fa roar of an alteration in the law. that if it was to be ap plied to this case, it ought also to the Crown—but the Crown was esseatially Protestant. and must remain so immutably. He could sot tblek that the perjury of Oates had any thing to do With the Revolution; bat he would contend that what was done at the Revolution ought to have been done at the Reformatioe. (Heir.) He alluded to the connection which at the formerperiod bad been established between the Church aid the Sove reign. If the King were now to change his religion, he would be obliged to step dews from his throne, and descend to the level of an erdioary individual, forfeiting all his distinctive rights and dignities. Now finding that to be the case, be would say to the Duke et Norfolk, when, is his private capacitg. be highly . respected— " You have no right to be on p. better hooting then the King upon his throne; oar's is a Protestant Constitution end does not sanction your claims." He would always maintain this principle, that no maws was to operate with respect to the Crows &lose, which seas not also to have effect with respect to the other estate& of the realm. The principle of exclusion, as it pegeededCatbolic Peers, was renewed and re-elfin:4 in the Act of Union with Scotland ; it was renewed and re-a/armed in the Act of Settlement; it was renewed and r•-efhnned in the reign of Door's 11. He would ask, if oar ancestors did not mean the laws to be fundamental ruts of the Constitu tion? But the Noble Earl oppoeste had said that this BilletesSemplated only the restoration of a right. aid to Beier beak things to the state la which they had formerly bees. All laws were la the lest instance experimeatal, sad their Lordships . could sot look before the time of Elisabeth for any pnaciple that cotultd of the a prece dent. What was the coalmines= of th parsed from the time of Elia. doter to the la tofthe reign of Chesil ? A sane of contiaial bleodsbed, fora period of nearly 151 years, and all for Want of • due cessoetion hay mg bees ettablished between the Church and the Sortreigs. Were they thee with the advaispes of the latter period before their eyes, to gem ma a without a compass ? Bet it was that all Autger h long erased to exist, sad the recurrence of such misses as bad takes place could not possibly be anticipated. He was Indeed a bold man who maid say wt. ' Who, in the year 1630; could have foresees OWN* monarchy would be abo lished—that the House of Lords would be abolished; and that the bienrchy "said be abolisbed? Who could sag what disastrous acmes might again occur. not, per haps. through the agency of Catholics, bat from unfore seen causes arising out of any Intriegenteat of them laws. which our ancestors bad wisely enacted for ear protection. He was the MN opposed to this Bill, see ing it could not be adopted as an isolated measure. A great deal mere must be dose, or their Lordships had mach better do nothing at all. It might, perhaps, be ezpodiest to make eaerMms, I. order to attain so great eSc i t as hi give to Catholics a Nil pa:tit:Spades In N statue; bat tale Bill would sot set the rat When a - NOM Pew bind et his r. Plunkett) bad lest year introduced a Mamas. be so with • view to Anal adjustment. This was as object for which sacrifices might be naade—but what did this Bill effect towards it? Nothing at all; It left the whole question open for discussion as before. If the time should come when tbe doors of the, Legislature were to he thrown open to the Catholics generally, Catholic Peers would of course be admitted; though for his own part he thought there wars melt eirosger objection to the latter than to Ohs tinier ismensch, se by their right of esmmene. their ships were called upon to attend* the interests of a Church decidedly opposed to the dactrieseprofessed by the Catholic Peers. who were to sit among them.—(Hear, Imar.)—ln the measure introduced last year. securities Ee:l d roposed ; but it was asked. that the Bill which • them. should go Ijssel paint, with the Bill of lei, and that one should sot pass without theother. However, le the Bill now before their Lordships, the question of secs rides was entirely lost sight of, and therefore be consi. dered it as set at rest. On all former occasions the Ca tholic questions were brought forward chiefly with reference to the state of Ireland; and very fairly so, for the great mass of the population being of the Catholic persuasion, many thought it adviseable to get rid of ex chokes, which were considered to effect the tranquil- lity of the country. Bat this Bill did sot confer a single benefit on Inland; it applied only to English Peers, and eventually a few Irish Catholic Posse aught obtain 'eats if it passed; the *amber would be very trifling, and the advantages to the general body of the Catho lics sone at all. He would ask the., whether this was a measure likely to prove satisfactory to the Catholics of Ireland; he certainly thought sot; and be would far ther say, that it was likely to prove a positive evil. If it served as a step in the geseral measure, it might be of some service; but that sot being the case it would only be galling to the feelings of the Irish datbolies.—. Another objectioe to this Bill was, that the granting privileges to Catholic Peers and 004 to Catholic Com masers, was obeezions and hostile to the principles of a free tiovernmest. With respect to the Army and Navy being th rows open to Catholics. it did not follow that though enacesmos was made in one instance it should be made in another; for the rumpus in both might be materially different. He bad already stated why a diatinctioa formerly existed in ee eegseam of a choice of relies' being optionalarith the Crown ; bat that was sot now the case. He had bees taught to believe that though the possessions sad attributes of individuals might differ, the rights of all were the same.—(Hear.)—He bed bees taaght to believe that the hereditary right which a Minister might happen to enjoy, was to him as good • right as the title of the King to hie Crown. and so far from weakening the Constitution, this privilege firmed its greatest strength. —(Cries of bear hear, hear.)—He weld sap thee, with this impres sion upon his mind that the capacity of the Commoner so be elected was as good as the right of the Peer to sit. He would ask their Lord skips then upon what right weld they say that th ey would sot ohket to a Peer sitting. though they would object to a Comeemser being elected. This would invade a principle which constituted their Lerdships highest pride; namely, that while they had peculiar privileges, they enjoyed them privileges so the prejudicei of so man. It was spots this principle that that House had originally excluded men who were thought hostile to the religion of the State. Bet the Noble Bari said that their Lordships ought to pass this Bill eves if they west so further. New be (tbe Earl of Li l) would say, that they mod go farther. If they made a stead there, it would be a most invidious act towards the Catholic body at Ism. The Bill settled settling; it led! the whole questios precisely is the some state as Won. Ho sow so possible pod that could molt tram it, wino it drew a most Illiberal tehtinrtiee Mimeo the peerae and the confines/Its.. He asked their Lordships m look at this measure, slid say whether they thought it calcu lated to produce any advantage whatever ? Lord GRENVILLE said that he shoeld have re mained silent upon this questiue upon which lie ha.' so often delivered his sentiments to their Lordship. had sot the grosuds of his Noble Friend's opposition placed him under the ity of rising to enter I l i, protest against them. He had called upon them t.• I consider whether any benefit to the State would be gained by the passing of this Bill, and his (Lord Oren ' vine's) answer to the Noble Earl's question, was, that from it would accrue to the State the greatest possible of all benefits—that of doing justice—(hear)—sad in comparison with that he set all otherconsideratiees as eothing. He said to them, "be just and fear not." Even if it were tree that the Bill before them involved the interest of six individuals only—if but eons, and that one, instead of the highest, of the lowest in the country, he sbopld say that they were mot at liberty to put any queen,* as to the cosaequeeces, er what of - enema br ere likely to follow it. Stop where As . dim* they could not stop. He considered the jr. question , of which this was a branch, as • aff and extensive policy, which might cosh, in% a • he ih Respire the greatest benefit it was pot s -forthd mind of man to eonceire. But be regarded the pretest Twenties before their Lordships as an act of retribetive justice, to timid, upon which their Lord elilie,Ware Arra in their judicial, lied not their legis lative cipdieltim..- - -Ztlear.)—Tliire was se ground ea which it was possible for any power or authority to divest a Peer of that noose of his civil rights. but some immediate, present and overbearing state neces sity. such as should justify their tampering with the Domination itself. The question here was whether this right, already'vested in the individuals from sources as high as any right could be derived from, could any logger, with the smallest shadow of justice. be withheld i mid in that point of view., the real ques tion wee. whither they should hesitate to commit the meet Migrant isjustiee. - Mach had been said about securities, and there appeared to lie something is that word which molted a remote api..ebensioe of danger. Whoa the lipstimi of Catholic Emancipation was first raised, he felt a great desire to provide securities for whatever dangers could be shewn to exist. But every heir's deltaideration. aid the subsequent coarse of emote slice the year 1801, bad rendered the desire less strong in his riled ; and if the Bill of last year had mem up to them without securities. he should have raised his voice to dissuade their Lordships from attempting to add securities to it.— (Cries of " Hear, bear, bear.)—So far from soliciting votes from this measure, under an idea that it was not to go farther. be assured their Lordships that it was his spiel., that the expediency and justice of the case was so imalfest that the only way of putting the quer dos to rest washy looking it 'fairly in the fece. The appestats oftlie Masan assured them that setae from. ng Titus Oates, they detested the very same of rpt ill“ Platt but they went quite content to say to these eix esellisediagindivideals.that they and their latest pm terityabould siaiseit to the deprivation of the greatest privilege which paid be enjoyed, calling it only the minimums ofilbe wrongs of their ancestors. Why aboald they await themselves of the prejudices of Tittle Hata Oporslsorietthe commission dr a wrong. Their iiillellti, it wall dike, were to sealant for that 'sag Ithi:N sou lt i t hogil la t 1 from this day forward itwoulit. be of the p . ceeens time that. aathecemid sews in depriving these men of their jut rights. We used more than asy other oosutry did yet ofliberty and law, and he believed that however the coustry might have been surrounded by dangers. at no period aim history did we impede** the smallest par tials ofdanw free the law of Quilt Elisabeth, for permideg CiOtolie Peers their undoubted right of sit ting sod melt' la that house. The Noble Lord referred to some Forties' of history to prove that the Popish pints wets is most cases sot the plots of the country against the Stair, bat of the State professing Protestantism Zirlest die Protestant establishmest of the country. He chewed that nobody bad ever been mere devoted to the Crown thasthe Wividnala who were the object of the Bill before the holies. It appeared to him that the osly principle upon which they could refuse to pass this Bill from the Assam of security, was the same which would jeatify their fortifying this peaceful city because it come was *might necessary to surround it with walls of defence. ?ht danger being completely, absolutely. and entirely removed, all that rested upon that part of the question must fall to the ground; and be mast ask os whatgrounds they were to perpetuate what was only erected aeon some temporary emergency. If they would look at tins measure in its true light as as act of restric tive justice. he would venture to predict that it was one from which no danger would acorns to the country. Ho maintained that whether he was of opinion that the sae seeding niemares oestesiplated were right or not, It eaght to mahatma dllimrescii as to this question, which was not oesof expediiney esd policy, but of right to be dose. It ware lamas of property. of privilege, and of birthright to be redeem,. which could no lodger be withheld without the greatest injustice.-411isfi 4 61 *-) Lord REDESDAL said it was the duty of the Ls &litters to protect the Protestant Religion ; yet. ac cording to the argument of several Noble Lords, they were to call perms to discharge the duty of Legisla tors who were beadle to the religion of the country.— Could there be a strong er ground of exclusion than difference in religion. The fact was, the LegislamM had a p ublic duty to perform for a Protestant people, "which Roman Catholics never could perform consistent with their own' couscientiotte view.. Their duty was different. Catholic Prelates might jest as well eit with the Ravened Bishops as Cath o lic 'Nen ell :n that lumen They were asked why they required the oath ? His skewer was to support the Established Church.— They osittie ed look at the oath imposed ea the :Soft raise. made him swear to protest Protestantism, yet they wi to give him Roma', Catholic Lrgisla ton. A Prometwat succession required a Protestout le gislator*. James 11. esdearoored by his power that which they were then called Imes to de is their legisla tive capacity. The Noble Lord then adverted to Ire land, and expressed his opinion that tke Protestant es tablisbiseet is that country could not stand if superior political power waa given so Raman Catholic .Wgia lators. Lord HOLLAND could not admit that the danger just stated by the Noble and Learned Lord. could pos sibly result from the measure ceder consideration. but before he, entered into the disessalos be should per , that the !Reeding Order 71, be read. The Order was mcordieg4 read from the Jos by tho Clerk. It was aa order that se with shield impend on any Peer. the refusal to take which w disqualify him to sit in Parliament. . Lewd HOLLAND that mid be wee compelled Madsen to mime of the circumstances which gave the A. the standing order be bad vested. lie should bra/sever first manna, that that order *met the qesitien es its true footing. It held out to the boom that Pain bad been deprived of their privilege Miappeor is thit Woe. The oaseproloadi was throw, is these who opposed the Bill to show the existence of danger which judged the rerrictioa. They Sad proved no digger; hut then it was said, the Bill - Introduced no anomaly. Hinright ask. to what ? To the religious and parliamentart esuhliels ments 1 That which was chaos throughout. 'Their ea i ilishmento appeared to have been the work of chant*. —; Nothing was seen hut darkness and delusion. It bad been said if the Bill passed the Constitution would he at an end, and tome Noble Lords expected nothing less thin to see the Pope's Int 1 hrotieht from under the table. If the Bill did introduce anoni..ly, it was an aaritiat ano may, and antiquity would recommend it to the Noble and Lettrned Lord on the woolsack. it asked for iecu• rides, he might say as the mother said pointing toter children, " They are here," He would tell the Rev. Bishops that security was to be found In the 16 Peers of Sew laud. They would suffer co encroachment on the Constitution; brit the fact was they were not so much opposed to the admisi on of Roman Catholic Peers as some Loris imagined. Those who professed the religion of the Chur,h of Scotland, considered Rpiecopsey and Po pery an abomination before Oort, yet a boever heard of • Scotch Peers moving to etelude the Itliehops from the house ? The bib of Elisebeth had been alluded to, and it should not be.foretted, that the Queen said, she had other means ofjudging of the loyaly of her Catholic Peers, and she did not make theta .abject to the prowl sloes of the Act. His Majesty might make the same ob servation, and not require the oath. When the Noble Lord stated the doctrine of Hamlet and other Roman Catholics, he should also look at the doctrines of Bishop Saunders, the Hosuilirs,and all the religious doctrines, which existed preelously to time reign of 11. The Clergy bad formerly held doctrine', which:many oppos ed; but seeking of the Clergy of the priseut day be ,itt.ged of the treeby the fruit. They did . not practice their 'dangerous doctrines, but they bad not only . renounced •" them, and would it be reasonable to say give us some odious test that yolk will not practice your doctrines.— The Noble Lord entered minetely into the historical de- " toils connected with the Act of Charles 11, and most Strenuously seppotted the 11111. Parliament had said a Catholic King in England should he set aside, bet they bad not said so with respect to Catholic Peers of Tarlia meet. It was but just to give them all the benefit which they provided. The question was then loudly called for, and the house was cleared for a division. The numbers were--; Contents 60 Present Peelle' Not-Content • - - - 97 Present Proxies Majority against the. Bill. —42 It was consaqaently thrown out. The House then adz jot:reed at ballpsat twelve. . , HOUSE OF COMMONS. - WAIIBMOUBINO BILL. Mr. WALLACE said that be bad felt most anxious to bring forward the Warehousing Bill at different times, bet was prevented by the pressure of public business. On looking over the state of public business for the next few weeks, he found there was no chance of bis being able to bring it forward sooner than the beginning of July. If he brought it on then, he felt that it would be impossible for the Lords to have that interval for the consideration of the Bill which its importance demanded. Under all these dissentious, he was under the neces sity of postponing the measure to next Session. This. was painful to him, but he must yield to the pressure of public beanies. He begged, however, to state, that this was the reams, and the only reason, fur postponing the Bill. Hi bad representations made to him from sr ✓end quarter. so the sobjett of this Bill, bat is none of them cosh! he discover die least grounds to maks hint him hesitate in Oresectitiog the measure. He was too / fully persuaded pf Its advantage to the trade and coin- - mere.. id .tke mast, relinquish the Bill oo slight lig.did IMP 110 W -110111 Ike strongest intentiosi to brie( if toward netigessloo. He pledged himself to renew the measure at as early opportunity. He then moved, that the Bill be'read this day three months. Mr. RICARDO said be very much regretted that the Hoe. Gentleman was not able to prosecute the measures "Ms aession. He trusted that the Hon. Oentleman would be oar"! tonne, his pledge in the next Session. la meantime be hoped that the case of the silk trade emit receive the tallest consideration from theGovern oi 1f our silk manufacturers wore relieved from the effects of a metraband trade, they would soon be able to compete with the foreign manufacturer. The Spital- Bolds Act was another source of embarrassment to the metropolitan manufacturer, and would, if continued, have the effect of seeding away the manufacture from Bandon to places where the Act was not enforced. Mr. ELLICE thanked his Homurable Friend for Arising the attention of Goveromedt to the state of this Tirade. He was - prepared to state, that if the Bill was persevered in, and the clause affecting their mannfactnte 'Stained, the manufacturers in every district in the kings• slain. where they resided would have pethioned against I. He hoped that next Sessions, before this Bill was moeived, either Ministers would reduce the duties on the importation , of the raw material, or take measures to 'diminish the Illicit trade Mr. ORENFELL wulorry for the postponement of :the Bill, as be was persuaded that discussion would do 1111011.0•41. by ressovieg prejudices sad unfounded ob. "Parentertained against the Bill. •WALLACE menred the house, that they might depend won bis redeeming' his pledge at an early pe eled is the next Session. He should also take the con , Alden of the silk trade Into his most serious consider ;MlN a the meandme. He felt that the silk trade la under were peculiar disadvantage", among which low Of the most.considerable was that of wanting free laboar—(ileer.) Mr. LITTLETON was friendly to theprinciple of the Bill, but thought that the Limas respecting the silk trade .deserved revision. The Bill WWI than ordered to be read that day three =oaths. PASSAGE MAMA 10 AMERICA. Mr. CANNING wished oa the behalf of a most re. , speetable position of bis constituent, to know from bis Hon. Friend. the Secretary of the Treasury, if it was his in. tendon to persevere in the Bill for the regulation of passage vowels to America= and if it was, be wished to iusk of his Hes. Friend if he would give time for the consideration of the Bill. Mr. LUSHINGTON slid, that the Bill had been sent to the &forest parts of the kisgdoot, nil such Won objectless appeared •to be entertained against it. that it was deemed expedient to withdraw the Bill for the present.—(Hear.) PRISON "AWL On'the motion of Mr. COUR7ENAY, the Order of the Day was read for the recommitment of the Prison Laws' Consolidation Bill. The Hone resolved itself into a Committee on the said Bill. Several classes were altered is the Committee, and agreed tot bet Lord Footarrees ej s e:ted in tote 50 clause, which he conteoded bad the t of preventing Visiting Magirrates from bolding comesseicatin with mien coalealwa charges ot High Treason end Se/A non. A division then took place when there appeand—Fer the Clause, 44—Againat it, 10--Majority for the Claire, 34. Another division took place en a Claus, declaring drat say Prime Chaplain receiving MI. a year for the performance of the rims dudes, - shield set hold any other. Church appointment, wheel. there appitered.—For - 'IT • r ~. - ; 1, • i