The Statesman. — London, England, 1813-01-27 00:00:00

111 I. {- - ~: " lineepty Dummy mood on the wall, Haawry Damply tot a great fail t But All tNe Kint Watt, and of the King's men, Could never set Hamm ep again." Mr. GRANT (one of the Directere) said, there were two kinds of danger involved in the projected innovation on the Company's rights, one political, the.otlier commercial. The Hon. Gent. (Mr. Hume) like a great many others, considered the political dangers as wholly chimerical, and looks upon tine commercial as all in all. He, however (Mr. Grant), .was of opinion, that the political queition in this discussion was pre-eminent; but would not enlarge upon it, as thri lion. Proprietor's remarks on the subject bad been already sufficiently ansivered. With respect, however, to the commercial question, he - wooktimake some remarks on the Gentleman's state meets, as many of them, he wads sorry to see, were calculated to. fall in with and to foster the prejudices of the present day. Two points had beep urged by the Court of . Directors in their Correspondence with Ministers; the first, that there can be no great increase in the exports from this Country Jor the consumption of India ; and secondly, that there can he no great increase in the sale of In dian commodities in this country. On these points, be Was at issue with. Mr. Herne. The Directors, in forming this opinion, were guided by thek know ledge of the customs, climate, character, religion, and prejudices of the natives of India, which they knew were against increasing the quantity of our commodities exported for India. Wm had been suf ficiently proved by experience. Mr. G. then read extracts from the different Petitions that had been laid before the Ileum: of Commons, from which it appeared, that the Petitioners thoUght our exports for India might be considerably increased. One from the merchants of Sheffield was extravagantly san guine on this point ; and indeed all the extracts he had alluded to, had a strong tendency to fortify the delusion, as well as Mr. liume's remarks. That Goutleman treated the subject as if there had been a progressive annual increase (which is contrary to fact) in our exports to India. Several of his facts were very questionable. The export trade was of two kinds:—that of the Company'i Commanders and Officers, which existed before 1793, and that of the Company itself. The trade to India was much al tered by the Warehousing Act, in 1798: as the trade had been much swelled by that Act, as well as by the share possessed in it by the Comptv's Corn menders and Officers ; yet, notwithstanding this in crease, the Officers often have but little advantage by it, and he knew them often to lose by these ven tures. IVhatever increase has taken place in our exports since 1793, was mostly, or entirely, owing to the increased number of Europeans in India. But this, even in any shape, is not an increase; for had they staid at home, they would have consumed the same articles ; and, instead of the increase being so high' as Mr. Hume stated it, he affirmed that it amounted only to 31 yearly during the period in question. He would ask, had any new articles been sent out to India during the time of this alleged in- ! crease ? There were cone except cochineal, which is i not a commodity of this country. There was then . no increase in the consumption of British goods. It a larger sapply than is sent by the Company be ne cessary, why do riot the native traders in European i or British goods call for it 1 They are on the spot, and apght to know the wants of the meaty ; and would not private interest lead them to provide for them? liiet it seems the Gentlemen of Sheffield know I all these things better. From part of a Report by One of the Company's Officers, which the Hon. Di rector read, it appeared that no new articles had been called for: This shewed, after an experiment of 20 years, that the argument was on the side of the Corn- i pany. The Hon. Proprietor (Home) had stated Mr. Colebrooke's authority for the indefinite increase of' the trade to India ; but he ought to have mentioned,l that the work in question was not wholly Mr. Cole-1 brooke's, as he disclaimed it in part six years ago. But even- were the opinion of Mr. Colebrooke such as had been stated, he (Mr. Grant), from hie own experience, could not assent to it. He is further of opinion, upon the whole, our exports cannot be much increased. Nor is it (as had been hinted) 1 the high price of freight that prevents it, since the Company's Officers pay no freight.—Mr. Grant then proceeded to consider the exports from India to England and to America. Mr. Hume had stated the amount of these exports at 181,0001. in 1793, and said, that in 1810 it had increased to 1,740,0001. I But he ought (said Mr. Grant) to have followed the matter up, by stating, that teat year it amounted i only to 110,0001. Ti trade also has been much affected by the Warehousing Act. From 1793 the sales amount to 23 millions for the public, and to 8/ millions for private individuals. The amount of the sale of indigo in this country, since 1793, was 14,079,0001. i nor was it since the opening of the trade since 1793 that this increase took place, as ; the Company, when he was in foilia se vent yews before (1793), had encouraged the! manufacturers of indigo in India, and he himself then recoeuneuded it to the attention of Lord Cornwallis. lie would, therefore, conclude, the f t the increase in the indigo sale since 1793, was owing not to the Act of that year, but to the previous encourag and measures of the Company.— With respect to the importation of cotton from In- : dia, that cannot be much increased now, as a great quantity remains in the warehouses' unsold. Much of this has ',ern in the warehouses many years ; and there is no less a quantity unsold at present than 42,000 hales, worth about 500,000!. Be sides this, he may state, that there is no less than' eleven hundred thousand pounds worth of indigo also, belonging to various individuals, unsold in the Company's warehouses. In the course of twenty years only two pew articles had been imported here from India—cotton and Indigo ; and can it he said that we want more of them, when so much lies on our hands ? with respect to Mr. Bone's remarks on . the American trade ith India, he would ask, iy with the impolicy ming the Indian trade allowed in SI was lor was this done by ;oing too far to call it make the Americans of the customers of had settlements in that we are not war- we gave the uentrals then recommended it to the I Cornwallis. He would, thereto j,' ; the increase in the indigo sale s ins . •,- :' t i' ' not to the Act of that year, b encourag ,- .:ment and measures of ;', With respect to the importation I dia, that cannot be much increase quantity remains in the warehout , of this has been in the wareho and there is no less a quantity • V than 4'2,000 hales, worth abou • , sides this, lie may gate, that thei qeleven hundred thousand pound! '1 also, belonging to various iiidii the Company's warehouses. In th years only two pew articles had from India—cotton and Indigo ; that we want more of them, whe our hands ? With respect to M I • on' the American trade with Ind why does ho charge the Company (Wit deserves that name) of openi l 4 to liglitrillt ?—.-What had been a '... confirmed by the Act of 93 ; 1101 1 the Company. But i.: it not goi i impolitic in our Government to rr our cpstonuo in , 4ndia, instead c other I.nropean ittiotiS who I India ? lie certainly thinks t h at ranted in otilitigii imPolific) is li ti • .. , 4.111. according to loft a clear Mann a t one GeoAlentan's Lord nothing but , owing to the war in French Republic. India for 13 years, 'stated by Mr. Hume, it ii only since the, Itfds increase in the.. his taken place. Put the Company's oppoi, it was a statement upon credit, that the whole and to Americ.3, they were about 40 y 1768 ? The annual 111,0001. It was tree the Company Aid not attach much importance to this trade in a commercial point of view, but they did attach great imporwps to it as a link in a chain of interests, which, if ten out, - This was if , •, arge4 _ smuggling on, with respect to the India trade, . Thames alone, than in all the Test of the country.— ' This nos easily accounted for. It was no wonder that there was more smuggling where the goods did actually thin where' they did not go.. Ships, how _ ewu only remark that he Nobleman which adduced. Re had Sr.. of India Company; but , so that th e supposition were Proprietor had admitted that the ships . appointed for the private trade were often . considerably delayed. Mr. KEWNaTU &EITEL rose to explain, that he had admitted that the ships had been delayed, but, for po. litiosl purposes. the whole system might crumble in pieces. .., , go, tn.... - _ _ quan. ,w h a t ieua h n e w w h a i n a ted ex , asistedit shboetwwedeenthethmeiscchoiemlspaolflyt,hsecocomne. 1 sccidentilly had ionelpto other ports , . as Ibis- i Mr. Hu" mE continued, that this explanation was - - • I ---i the proper answer to the question—Why, .. It isle' ares' N o ; because • tol, and then it was sheep observed that the losing trade, will you not resign it ?, we cannot resign it without resigning the coniroul tity of goods impaled was greater than usual. Hit u and cote which we exercise over the territorial - preseut, with every preinetion, it. was impossible to . mem and its politics. mercial interests of that branch of the Empire, - prevent the M w erit trade, hat wouldbe themV.e when; The —liallteatt begged the Honourable P ropr i etor and without endangering the existence of the In- these articles were remove d , an d the only profits of I would confine himself as much u possible to expla. dkn system altogether. He had heard no sound the owners of vessels would, perhaps, arise from it ? natise, argument on the ether side, nor could he see any. The C o mp a ny were DOW placed in a situation un-1 After a cry of question, safety for the Company in a compromise. He should paralleled :it was a struggle for their existence, al Mr. Hume continiusd, that s o man y-thi ngs pressed f not'refiect on an lion. Member for the singularity case of life and death. The Court of Directors would on hol t that h e w a s inclined to. say - more than he of hie conduct, in alone studding forward to oppose never surrender the interests of the Proprietors, but could wish.—{Cryo go on I]—The admission o f ti e they would be guided by their decision ; and he hoped Hon. and Lea r ned G en tl eman the sentiments of the Court ; but be thought he might. , on his right (Mr. IL justly complain of his attempting to revive former that that decision would be each as fo lead to a Jackson), that the capit a l o f th e Company had bean lexhausted by the dkersion of th e i r cap i ta l to po ll t i. controversies, which :c ould answer no end but to triumphant issue to the contelL sow the weds of dissension and irritation in their 1 Mr. RMIDLE Jscasoe observed, that when a i cal,purposes, was an additi ona l reason i n f avour o f minds. As the same Ge wean bad referred to 1 Ministry submittid a string ef questions to a Board' the bean*/ of what be contended, viz . the sepia. X l Lord Wellesley, as an 'lath :, he should alto beg •of cousnlissionors, _ the anewees, , however safarou r - : Bon a Politics and commerce. A.,,Oentletnen who leave to quote Ids opinion. 'y r. Grant then read an able in their real result, would at least b e as col- : had spoken on a former day is that - Court had said, extract from a letter of Lord Wellesley's, in 1800, ploismil as possible. This had been the ease with ; that he could at any time have obtained 5000 more in which that Noble Lord deprecated the idea of the Report of the Commissioners of the Customs, on ; tons thank had had any necessity for. This, he -pre throwing open the trade to India, without reserve, es which so much stress had been laid. The opinion o fj soared, would be sufficiently a nswere d b y t h e Chair unjust, impolitic, and founded in a total ignorance of the Board was very obvious indeed. They had ex- i man of the Court of Directors, of whose evidence be facts. Aa insinuation had been thrown out, that the pressly stated to Government, that it would be ab.et fore a Committee of the House of Commons he sh ou ld results of the regulation of 1793 had not been en- solutely necessary to confine the trade, to reduce the + read an extract. The extract was to this effect : swerable to the intentions of.those whceframed there, size of the vessels, and to place them under a guard I `tThe private merchants complain of wan t o f t on . and that, this was the fault of the East India Com- of revenue cotters. He wished this statement to go , nage ;we admit the complaint, but the blame of the party. He might say that he had opportunities of out to the world, as while there was an affectation ! deficiency is not to be attributed to the Court of Di knowing what the intentions of those who framed to open the trade to the whole country, and on thelrectors " &c. that Act were, and he could assert with truth, most broad and liberal principles, the Commissioners Mr:DAVIS rose to order t and l amidst considerable that they had never entertained the idea of open.. declared that it could with safety be extended to only • clamour, said, that there was no period when he ing the trade to the extent to which It had been four or' five ports. Some curious facts came out in !could not have obtained the number of tons in ques. carried. So far was it from being fair to represent this document. With respect to Liverpool in, parti. : tion. . the Company in an invidious light, as if they had cular, it was stated, that the entrauce'into the har-1 Mr. R. JACKSON rose to order, and asked, whe. withheld ihe privileges granted to the private trader, • hour was not long and open to sight, but dud nothing they, to depress an individual, they should depart that they had afforded additional facilities, and ex- • could be better caleulated for smuggling. The ob. 1 from their established rules of proceeding ? There ceeded the intentions of the Act He should only add jections to the other four 'or five ports were still ! were but few persons who would have been able to a few words more. The question had been too much greater, and yet this was the document on which preserve their temper, under such irritation as the treated as a commercial question: he had himself the Ilonourable Proprietor and the Ministers bot- ; Hon. Gent. (Mr. IL) had been exposed to. taken this view of it, but he considered it as a very toned their argument against the increase of smug...! Mr. HUME proceeded to say, that the experience narrow and comparatively insignificant one, for the gling. jpf all private merchants militated against the experi. subject really Involved political considerations of the The CHAIRMAN stated, that by the rules of the ' duce of the Hon. Proprietor (Mr. Davis). The cora. greatest magnitude, and the vital interests of mil. Court the mover of the original question only had a; whoa which had been draw s between the attempt of lions of people. Even in this confined way of stat. right to reply. If, therefore, this privilege was ex. ! Mr. Fox, in 1783 5 * and the proceedings of the Mi ing the question, it appeared that there was no pro. , tended to any other gentleman, it would be by the ; nistry, was not correct, is Mr. Fox had attempted bability of any material increase in the commerce to : courtesy of the Court, and he hoped, that as their to take the patronage into his own hands, while the or from India. If the petitioners, then could be time was precious, any observations:that might be i present Ministry (lid not wish the Company to give convinced of this, would they not desist? He fear- made would I* confined to explanation. • lap any thing bat a source of loss, which the Di. ed not, for there was a, propensity in the mind, ! Mr. Huns said, that grateful as he was for the in-1 rectors manifested a wonderful reluctance to part when once heated in any cause, to persevere in spite , dulgence granted to him on a former occasion, he i with. An :Honourable Gentleman who bad spoken of evidence. He would, however,' recommend it to should be unwilling uniseCessarily to trespass a mo. .on a limner day (Mr. R. Grant), had said In one them to pause, before they attempted to pull down ! ment on their time ; yet he thought, in spite of the ' sweeping clause; that ail hie (Mr- 11.'.) foe* wore an old and venerable establishment, which it would regulations of the Court, he had a right to reply, ; Irrelevant ; but the reason of this opinion be had be ditficut to build up again. As to the'llittisters, ' after the observations that had been thrown out; been unable to collect, u not one item of that Gen. they seemed to have no decided opinion of their own, ' against him. So many persons had spoken against:lentil's speech applied to them. That Gentleman, but to rely on the representations of others. Of the' him that be did not know Which to answer first : , after condemning the Edit:buil/4 Review, which, credit due to those representations, the Court might , but he should begin at the bottom, and so rise regu- • with a little change of phraseology, he (Mr. flume) form some opinion from the extracts he had read to- ; larly to the top..—[4 laugh.]--His opinions and would designate a work as- able as It is useful, for day. But with no better authority on their side, . conclusions were not in opposition to those of the adducing facts which happened 30 years ago, as with no steady or consistent opinion of their own, . Directors, but in perfect conformity with them. His grounds for Legislative enactment, not content him, Ministers had called upon them to resign. lle hoped, opinions could not be refuted, for they were found- , self with so short a period, went back to the Go, however, that they would persevere as they had be. ed on proof and on facts. 1 vernment of Lord Clive, and wished to provide, in gun, and appeal with confidence to the candour and ' Mr. TIIIIILWALL rose to order, and wishnd the , 1814, against the enormities of that time, However good sense of Parliament and of the nation. ' Hon. Member to confine himself to the strict line of gratified he (Mr. Hume), as well as the Court, might Mr. Monetts stated, as as instance of the dangers explanation. I be by that Gentleman's fine metaphors and flowing attending the trade with India, that the natives had 1 The ellaittMAX said, that he thought time would ; language, yet, his whole speech being founded on risen upon, and massacred an adventurer of the name be gained by letting the gentleman go on hi his own the ill-grounded adsumptien, that adventurers would of Martin. Our Empire in India rested upon the ful. way. Ibe permitted to roam throughout the East without crum of opinion, and he should be sorry to see it ; Mr. HUME insisted that be wit perfectly in order. any kind of restraint, no conclusion could be drawn shaken by the indiscriminate introduction of the Eng- . His facts had not been refuted, but confirmed by the' from it. Another Gentleman had reiterated the lish into that country. - : attempts of the Hon. Director that day to &newer . charge of irrelevancy. If facts relative to the govern- Mr. TWINING said, he should ill discharge the ob- them. All that be had said proved, thnt whatever; ment and commerce of India were not relevant, he ligations he owed to the Proprietors and that Court, • was the amount, there had been a. great increase of ; should wish to ask what could be ?.[4ppiouse.]— if he did not express his opinion on the present er- trade. If an increase to threefold was an increase, ! Yet this assertion had at the time beep received with casion. The question had, however, been so ably an increase had .terteittly taken piece, He would! applause—to such a degree are men carried away argued within the Bar, and so eloquently urged on leave it to the Court to jusip whether they ought to ;by partiality and prejudice. An Honourable and the other side of the liar, 'that it would not be ne- • trust the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Grant), or experi. : Learned Gentleman near him, however (Mr. R. cessary for him to say mach. The authors of the re. ewe; whether they should trust the opinion of that ' Jackson), hail been of another opinieu, so he should gulatious of 1793 had. thought it better to trust to Hon. Gentleman, however weighty and respectable, ' dismiss that Hon. Troprietor alluded to without experience than to hazard experiment. They had or the account of the sales on which he (Mr. Hume) further observation. After remarking, in allusion therefore determined to preserve the same system grounded himself. As a proof that there would be: to what had been said by Mr. Impey, that Mr. of commercial and territorial Government, at the ' no probability of an increase in the article of cotton, ! Waithman might as well be considered an upholder same time opening the trade to the private' Mei.- . the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grant) had stated, that •of Government as himself ; Mr. Hume said, in chant, under such restrictions as were deemed ere- that commodity could not be purchased in . India and answer to Mr. Twins, that the exchange with France cessary to the security of those primary objects.— , brought to England at less than 10d. per pound. But had been long 34 per cent. against this country, by Lord Melville hod applied hie.powerful mind to ;lin that same Gentlensto bad WA> stated how ofteneot- . which-means-a sneermighti by - conveying" 1000 gui subject, and had come to the same concl u sions.. ion was sold in this country at 15d. 17d. per pound, neas from Dover to Calais, gain some hundreds of He might, perhaps, be accused of being prejudiced and sometimes at even a higher price. The quantity pounds, whilst by conveying a pound of t'a which hattdator tentporis acti ; but he believ ed that the of this article said to be remaissing at present in the would occupy the same space, he might gain the mess of the greatest reputation for wisdom its the warehouses. amounted only to one half of the quite- enormous sum of five shillings, the amount of the present day, would not increase that reputation , tity annually sold ; and if the circumstance of duty on that article. A Noble Peer, Lord Mel by acting en other views and principles. O n e ob-; such a stock remaining on hand, were an argument vile, had by a Learned Gentlemao (Mr. tt. Jack. serration lie would make on w h a t h a d b een said o f the ; against this trade, what trade- might not be ob- ewe) been accused of inconsistency. But he (Mr. increased trade from China. He conceived, that in ; jected to on the same grounds? As to indigo, from, H.) thought it not all dishonourable to that Noble ehtimating that increase, we must take into the ac- i whatever cau4 any of th a t ar ti c l e mi g ht have been Lord, to have altered his opinion on a maturer view count the Increased' price of the article. This had . res.taining so long as had been said in the warehouses, of the subject, and hoped that the Directors might not been done ; and yet he believed that the' increase ' he slid not know ,•; wh a t he kn ew w a s , th a t the sale have the same candour. The Hon. Gentleman wa lled Weil very little in the q u antity, a n d almost ! of that article amounts annually to 1,679,0001. a chided, by saying, that if the original Resolution wholly in the price. lie was doubtful which would i strong proof of what might he done by private en. were withdrawn, he should be willing to withdraw be most fatal to the Company, the success or failure i terprise. As to the prtifits of the Company on the his amendment, until he saw the .nature of the of the traders from the O u t-p or t s . Th e i r success I trade with India, he should remark, that it wadi(' Resolutiou which might be substituted to the present could only result from a transfer of the C o mp an y' s ! be an un f a i r method of, reasoning to state the profit one. trade to other n aiads ; th e i r f a il ure , on th e contrary ,i o f th a t tra d e wit h out charg i ng on i t those Renal Sir H. !Man (the Chairman) said, that he hoped they would attrie A gte.t o an y o th er cause th an th e i r 1 w hi c h wou ld h e pa id b y any pr i vate merc h ant on a his m Friend (Mr. Weiland) would not with own folly or mismanage m e n t, an d th en n o thing ! private adventure. The amount of the duty on the draw his Resolution. After enumerating the States would satisfy them, l im i t o f a total and uticandi- I exports from India at the rate paid by the private rim- men whose opinion favoured the Company's motto tional surrender of all their privileges on the pert of ' chants, would amount in the period shaded to by the poly, he said, that if the lion. Gentleman (Mr. the Company. When ruin both of individuals awl ' Honourable Director to 381,0001. On the imports Hume) could suppose any of the Directors actuated of the Company was com pl e t e , it wou ld b e little as. I into India there was a duty of el per cent. on the by so bile a motive as the desire of retaining the pa tisfaction for them to reflect, fla . 4 they lied been sa. i woollen, and one of 10 per cent. on other goods. troupe - that argument would not avail him, as the crific.ed to groundless glamour . He wag not eccuse I Taking theaverage of theseduties as an approximn. I patronage would still continue in their hands un tamed to think the worse of others ros differing from , tion to the truth, the duties on the Company's im- , toggled. The lion. Baronet proceeded to state him in opinion, nor was tie inclined to eptiderfiq en ports would amount to 866,0001. It was evident i this classes of persons who would be either thrown Honourable Proprietor for tlie facts and argumewe i that these sems should be deducted (teethe cons. :fiestitnte by the abolition of their privileges, or be he had bro u ght fo r wa r d. B u t h e th oug ht two Ge ri: - mercial profits, and added to the territorial revenuel ovided for Jo a much less liberal manner than at dentin would he liable to the charge of pciilniniii t NOW these duties togitber - with the simple Interest present, end remitted, that it was by. the funds of ,•0 • if he still portioned In his opinion' is spite at all Obi oi the investments * . elenamed to t 01 1 7 QUO Thicli the Churl that f4dia had been acquired and !wee i ~. ,S ~(, - —. --wr— , . • • , . , .. • . . . , • .. . , .. • • .• • . lt z 1 . 17 E., 'l' , A . ,l_llalitlV.. . . . - t . .. .. . ~.. .._-"im . .._............,..._:,.....,__•_----1.----, , .. what wed- could not carry . 91 i o g euis qs,' . *l , o** w - hard.. In . . 1 itg catloi. of the of , the Zetipahy's efter deducting the profit of the trade,' se( war i n - l oi c h we were engaged with , alth...ll i Ale (sr. Herne) had particulorly KW that the Honourable Director (Mr. G ran t) le, ) üblic: . The 'exports of AineAUlt 2 front" 411 ° Directors implied 'a Melee to leis of hetweei 5 or 606,0001.un thos e li e 416gIn k t r t years, amount to not -whet - had been tire Goy iewit. • White A preindlie was once ex. - even according to the Honeurahle Geatlea he should now only ro ma/ 'They had, lesley's opinion,' . r. Hume, but to aboot 31 yeiliy :—and apil 110dref men, people Were. apt to , *hewing. • On Whatinid been said about L ice theeirench itevolutiona.rY . wir that, can leels. ikey . ,could ,lope. in the A I American exports from India indeed " (14141011 id aps.4,, f ilhoon e :. opinion on ',ht. &Add refer . to opinions of th a t N o bl esn ace. uot what must- be the opinicies of , sehiect to the' 4ovorsunint, and this . Was con. would contradict that which bad b een add s y's opponents , when he woaltliitate, .nd i strued idea s' defiant" !Intl( they had'withbeld- that fully conceded the p o int t o t h ose who ement upon which he *hula - stake all his 1 opinion, to*ht net : reererotoent hereafter say to geed that a cession of the G overnmen t the whole exports from India to Europe ' then!) an d . with grist reason, Why did pen not in. Would be attended with ruin to the Comp tries, at prescps, are not greater. then „ l'iirnt ns t before i t was' ton late , 'et y odi decided they were sot now called on to ce d e it s outO years 'vita, that is about the Yeer ! oiddlon On the question of smuggling, it had conclusions which'were bUilt on that suppoi s i ) annual prat of the India trade ran : been erect that more smuggling was at present ear- netUfusech weight. An non. p to p r i e t or h ac It was true the Comoanv did not attach ; rind on, with respect to the India trade, in the river that the ships . appointed for the private tr 1 V 1 1 P' at T si, In be de Da 9, : atii Es .1 3 0, Um Fe Be phi ini