The Statesman. — London, England, 1813-04-03 00:00:00

• s us. IMPERIAL PARLMMEN7'. EAST INDIA QUESTION • The Marquis WELLESLEY house with his intention, on W.._ bring forward a motion for the productiOn papers, which „woe ld .4W nellreehise the Indian Question, and;,for. the being referred to the Select Gociwittee. Whole, he thought the most chavenieni ceeding ; yet he-thought, at the same presentation of the Resolutions upon tem proposed by Government was Should be accompanied by some observatil I to explain their nature, some statement Ito throw a light upon the subject. _ ) gen e r al •parliamentary discussion of the subject should should have preceded any examination of evidence. With respect to the resolutions, he observed,' there was a degree of inconsistency upon the face of them. The object set out with was not carried into execu tion by the subsequent Resolutions, but defects would no doubt be produced of a very opposite nature. — The Company would be precluded from the power of discharging those functions either at home or abroad, that which was, in the first instance, pro posed to allot to them. These were points which he should hereafter have an opportunity of discussing. The restrictions which were proposed to be laid on, woull render that delusive. He did not mean inten tionally, that which was preferred to be given - by the third proposition. There should be a general preliminary discussion of the subject, were it for no other purpose but to lay a foundation for the pro ceedings of the Committee.. It was in this view that he proposed to,move for certain papers on Woke,- day next, and when an opportunity would beagord ed to Noble Lords opposite of explaini Arndt parts of the proposition as were in his mind *ply ob scure. I The Earl of LIVERPOOL did not rise to offer any observations on those topics to which the Noble Marquis adverted, and in which he fully agreed with him, as to their superlative national and commercial importance. The Noble Earl then stated the ar rangement proposed and agreed to on a former even ing for the course of their Lordships' proceedings on the business in question, and the grounds on which that arrangement was formed. Ile thought it such as would afford every Noble Lord an opportunity of fully discussing the subject, and proposing any Amendment he should think proper to any of the Re solutions; and le tve it in his power to bring forward the consideration of the subject ia any other shape, either antecedent to . the examination of the evidence, or at t h e conclusion of it. For himself, .there was no subject to the consideration of which he had given more time : and he was satisfied in his own.mind as to the opinion he had formed upon it. He was pre pared to defend the great outline, the general princi ple upon which the Resolutions were founded, when • the proper opportunity should arrive. The Marquis WELLESLEY, in explanation, ob served, it should be recollected that the evidence , before the Committee could only be examined with reference to the plan that was submitted to them, and expressed his regret that some general introductory discussion did not take place. • HOUSE OF LORDS, Ara tit. 2. • A short sitting took pine before four o'clock, during which some private business was disposed rf. Litt d Grantham took the oaths and his scat. 'I heir Lordships then adjourned during plea tare, and at about Ore the House reimined. The oaths welr administered nt the bar to Warren Hastings. Esq. in referedre to his iidended evidence before their Lord ss.ipit'' Select (' ~,,, metier, to whom the consideration of Ibe af fairs of India is referred. Sir John Malcolm, and several other wimessei, were after wards tin orn to time ,:itsie elfect. The E:rl of 1)1.R IIY presented a Petition from Warrington, la I.:info-hire, whist the Renewal of the East India Com paey's 1 hnrser. 01.1. E presented a Petition from liamtaple, is the c..uots of ilevot., signora, the Catholic Claim , . preseuted one from certain Ship-huilders and ler. of the Town rind Pint of Ilwwirh, rigninst the em .. meat and regigerin4 of vessels built in AM4 ; as British ea' -, &c. Ti.e-e documents being read, were severally ordered to lie on the ruble. • PETITIONS FOR PEACE. Lord HOLLAND stated, that he had certain Peti tions to present on a subject of the highest import ance, and be trusted, that as he did not mean to give any notice of a motion for taking these petitions into conskleration, their Lordships would, in justice to the petitioners, and the humble individual who addressed them, give him leave to make a few ob. servatitins. The principle upon which their Lord slips acted in .regard to presenting petitions, he con ceived to be this: •that any of their Lordships would, as i Peer of Parliament, present any petition that wa- respectful in its langutn 4 e, and correct in form, howe%er much he might differ in opinion from the petitioners. Ile would, therefore, withput hesita tion, have brought forward these petitions, though the sentiments contained in them had been contrary to his own. This, however, was not the case in the present instance. He most fully and entirely Concurred with the petitioners, in thinking that the restroation of the blessings of peace was, after the sacri tires that had been already made, peculiarly de sirable at the present moment ; and that to appear ance, at least, there had been opportunities for en tering into neg otiation for the accomplishment of that object. [ut still these might be only appear ances, and therefore he was not prepared to say that his Majesty's Government had been actually guilty of culpable negligence in not taking advantage of the proper opportunities for entering into negotia. tion. These p.>:itions proceeded solely from the spontaneous impulse of the petitioners the%lseltes.- 7 No arts had been used,—no suggestions had been tcatie to procure them. Ile had even ventorc,. to dis , made them from offering them at all to i ar- Lament ; because, though he agreed with them ' in the. opinions expressed in their petitions, he was doubtful whether the presenting them in Par. littment, would be the best means of promoting their own object. The reasons he gave for his doubts ):ad been considered by the Petitioners ; and after mature deliberation, they' had again requested him to present them. This was highly flattering to him ; because it proved, at least, their conviction of his shiterity in the professions he had made of his ' concurrence in their sentiments and object. Ile now, then, presented these petitions; and had to state, that the language was not only respectful, but highly tensible andsproper.* The petitioners, though they urged the great sacrifices which had already been made, Stated, at the same time, that they were per fectly willing to make still greater sacrifices, if the pretensions of the enemy should be such as this covntry could not, in consistency with its honour Bed interest, accede to : but for the reason which he had already mentioned, he did not feel it his duty to fix a day for moving the taking of these Petitions into c nisideration. 1:e must, however, cautiously guard ouinst carrying this principle of abstaining from Par liamentary discussion on the question, so- far as to maintain that at no time, and under no circum siances, would it be proper to make petitions for peace the subject of Parliamentary discussion. If lie were to maintain that principle, he would be cast ing a severe reflection upon his own conduct, and upon the memory of ot:e dearer to him than even his own conduct. If, indeed, he could believe that the Ministers entertained Ruch mad and extravagant no tions*as that of completely crushing the great Prince at the head of the French Government,--if he could believe that they had in any degree stv.ctioned a certain paper.and proclamation—their jaorilships would un derstand what he meant when he alluded to it (pro babiy the Proclamation of Louis X VI [I.), if he could believe that they were resolved to make no peace, except on the ground of wresting from the French the fruits of twenty years' exertion,—then, indeed, he should say, that it was time to bring the subject forward in Parliament. Not having, however; any particular reason to believe, that the Ministers did insist upon any such extravagant pretensions, he did not think it proper to carry the Matter farther at present. There was no Frenchman but ought to shed the last drop of his blood rather than accede to any such pretensions; and there was no Englishman that ought to shed any blood in supporting them. He should have dismissed the subject with this observa tion, were it not that there was one point upon which he was - anxious to give some explanation. In a dis c•:ssion which had taken !dace relative to the affairs of the Peninsula, the opinion which he had given had been very much misunderstood ; and that too, in quarters where he was particularly desirous not to be misunderstood. Ile had been at all times of opi ni:et that the independence of Spain ought to be sup ported under that Government which they them- s , ..!‘es chose—namely, that of Ferdinand VII. and their own National Cortes. Having bees; always of that opinion before, he saw nothing in the present circumstances of the Continent to make him change' it. He desired, therefore, that it might be under stow', that he was decidedly favourable to the policy staining the independence of Spain in the he had stated—of maintaining it by every lertion that could possibly be made, if ne -while he thought that if it could be eifect ;ocietion, it would be proper to make some for that purpose. If this was the course had always thought to be recommended by licy, the case was much stronger when the :he nation was engaged. He concluded by • several Petitions from different places in :les of Derby and Leicester in favour of and nine Petitions to the same effect from the neighbourhood of Nottingham ; which on the table. The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE was of opinion much of what had fallen from the Noble Marquis arose from his misconception of the pro posed arrangement. Otte great object vas the saving of time, as it may be too late in the Session to begin the investigation on.the part of that House, when the Resolutions should regularly be sent up by the other House. In this view, they were communicated at nearly the same time ; not for the purpose, of de ciding upon them, but with a view of examining evi dence upon points materially connected with them, and the better preparing their Lordships for the con sideration of the general subject. The Marquis WELLESLEY then rose to bring forward a Petition, which it was his wish should, as the others, be referred to the Select Com mittee. It related to the subject of vesels built in Asia, respecting which such a general alarm seemed to prevail in this country. His Lordship then de scented upon various utilities which he desesibed as resulting to British interests in India frews the em ployment of such vessels. They contributed greatly to the success of our arms in different parts of the East ; to the conquest of Tippoo Sunsuit, in My sore, and to the success, of the expedition against Egypt. With a reference to our naval strength too, he deemed them of great importance. The wish of the Petitioners was, that they should be placed in the situation in which they had hitherto been, or that they should understand distinctly, now, what was meant to be done respecting them. After a few farther observations on the importance of this de scription of vessels, his Lordship presented the Peti tion, which seemed to be from certain Merchants of the Port of London, for themselves, and in behalf of others connected. with them in India, owners of ships built in that , country, praying that.their_inte rest migbt.be duly attended to. The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the Petition could be received only as that of those who' signed it s and the document as such, was received and referred to their Lordships' Select Committee. Lord GRENVILLE addressed the House at mime length upon the subject. He agreed with his Noble Friend in his sentiments respecting the subject of the Petition just presented, as well as in what he had thrown out in reference to the Resolutions upon which the systeni proposed by Ministers was to be founded.. lle had since read and considered these Re solutions in detail ; and some parts of them, cm iared with others. lle must say he felt a difficulty in understanding how the . objects professed in some, were to be effectuated by the others. With him too, he now thought they should have been preceded by some general discussion, in which Ministers should state at least the outlines of the general reasoning upon'which they rested their proposed system. The general admission as to the Import and Export Trade to India, was so limited by what it was pro posed to retain, that the greatest hazard was run of the result being highly injurious to the commercial interests of those,. whom the new system professed to benefit. lie had uniformly been of opinion, that the Trade to India should be thrown more and more open to the commercial capital and enterprise of this country, and with respec t to the more'immediate subject of the Petition presented by his Noble Friend, he thought the proposers of the plan should question, h e to put to Ms Majesty's Miiisters, he had ne wish that any detail of what passed upon the subject should be communicated. Neither had he an idea of the British Government being the cause of those miseries and mortalities, which In no small degree prevailed with respect to the unfortunate persons to whom he alluded, as was charged upon them in certain quarters. What he wished to be informed from au. thority was, whether any communication on the sub ject of Prisohers of War had recently taken place between his Majesty's Government and that of France ? Whether the proposition made by the French Government was such as to be deemed inad missible, or whether, if such were judged admissible on the part of this country, any proposition was founded open it? And he had particularly to refer to a report that seemed generally to prevail, that the ground of rejecting .the proposition was—the present rArcumstaucesgof Euro*. This he wished to be formed of ; or whet's* the .proposition was rejected upon other grounds? •e• The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt with the Noble Marquis, that the question was one which equally Involved considerations of humanity and justice; and he felt himself called upon to declare, that his Ma jesty's Government then and ever were ready to ne gociate with that of France for an . Exchange of Pri soners upon fair and equitable terms. It was un doubtedly unfortunate that all the efforts made upon i thepart of the former for that object failed of sue cesL Upon the last occasion, when an attempt was made, his Majesty's Government expressed their candid readiness to enter into the negociation upon those grounds and principles upon which they pro ceded on former occasions of the kind, when the failure took place in consequence of the propositions made by the French Government being such as could not, consistently with the honour or the interests of the; country, be acceded to. Ile had no difficulty in stating, that a disposition had been made to renew the negociation, and an intimation of that nature Witt made : on this it was distinctly declared that his Majesty's Government were disposed to negociate upon the principle on'which the last negociation was conducted, and he was sorry to say, the proposal • was received on the part of the enemy, in such a way as to leave little hope of a successful issue taking place. And he must say, that the Noble Marquis did his Majesty's Government no more than strict justice, when he declined crediting the report of the negociation being discontinbed on account of the actual circumstances of Europe. Nothing whatever • on the occasion turned upon that ground, and he again repeated, tho British Government were c!)r dially disposed at any time to renew the negotiation in question upon fair and equitable terms; and to come to any conclusion upon the point at all con sistent with the honour and the interests of the country. Some further discussion upon this topic took place, in which' Lords Grenville, Grey, and Holland, made some observations, and the Noble Earl (Liverpool) spoke in explanation ; but nothing materially dif. ferent elicited from what he had advanced in the first , instance. ___ pray. :be Petitioners. 11. should more that it be brought up. An Honourable Gen. tleman had given notice of i motion on .he i lea of peace. When that motion was made, he h a d ,no doubt this Pe(idea would be taken into deration. Thy Petition was brought up and read, and ordered to Mr. wi lieOnhjrrlia e table. EAD, in rising to present a Pot;. tion for the same purpose, from a great number of t t i h o e n i n o h f a t b h i e t a li n t o s the moderate and ' temperate House also of Leeds, i e d t g o ' to lee. language in which it was expressed.. He could also say, that the conduct of the greater part of the principal sufferers by this long and dismally pro. tracted war was peaceable in the extreme. The lan guage of the Petitioners would explain their senti ments more . fully than he could do : he therefore wished the Petition to he read. It having heels read accedingly, he said, that it was well known, r!,:tt oft* - daring the continuance of this war be oad coact it to be his duty either to support or to pro- , pose Motions of a nature similar to the prayer of . those Petitions. lie carried • his ideas on this sub. ject probably farther than most of the Members of that House ; but still he aver had called upon 'he House to interfere at all upon the sobject, usi ess he conceived Ministers to be failing its their duty of taking.advantage of the most favourable periods for obtainiik peace. He was perfectly aware, that if ever a period should arrive, when tote &lieu t'es which Ministers would have to impede them in such a negotiation would be the grea'o.t, it would be at a period when the table of the licuse should be crowd.. ed with Petitions like the present. if ever then, he wished' to induce the House to take any step to wards this great object, it was before they should he borne down by the irresistible power of Petitions of 'this sort from all parts of the country. At ail early period of this Session, when he moved an Amend ment to the Address, and gave the notice :ha was alluded' to, he had named no :particular time for bringing on that motion, and had since postponed it indefinitely. Events had lately !;appened in the North of Europe. which had- cousidorablv improved our situation and hopes, and they were gilt coett .u -ing to improve.' Such an improvement . outd not have been anticipated by any one a few montos ago ; but still those events appeared to throw fresh ditli. culties in the way of an immediate negociation fur peace. He therefore thought it right to oemv • i:ie Executive Government entirely unfettered up. subject ; nor would he bring any motion ft. u d in the House s unless he absolutely despaired of t.s. rct being any desire on theirpart to avail themselves of any fair opportunity which might offer, or unless he thought they now entertained some of those chime. rical hopes and vie ws which had formerly been en tertained by other Ministers. If he thought. for example, that Ministers save any couutenance or were consenting to the late proclamation p•lblished under the signature of La pis XVIII. then he should think it necessary to bring forwa) 1 a motion, not directly for peace, but for an Address to remove those Ministers who showed no ..lis;msition to pro. cure for the country a reasonable. Until, i.ow. ever, he should have reason to suppose his Ma. jesty's,Ministers were disinclined to peace on fair and reasonable terms, he should defer his motion in.. definitely. Trusting alway that Ministers had this I object in view, he should be glad that the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) would give a more distinct answer respecting the concurrence of Ministers to that proclamation of Louis the XVIIIth ; for although he had said that Ministers knew nothing I of It, yet he was informed that those under them had allorded those facilities which Government could do to get it into circulation on the Continent. If the Noble Lord chose to remain silent, his silence would be considered ominous; but if he were to dis ' claim it distinctly, that would indeed be highly sa tifactory. Lord CASTLEREAGH allowed, that the lion. On the motion of the Earl of HARROWBY, and after a few words from his Lordship on the occasion —the consideration of the Report of the Stipendiary Curates' Bill, was adjourned till Monday. STEALING IN SHOPS. Lord HOLLAND moved the second reading of the Bill for repealing the Act, making it a capital offence to steal from shops, &c. to the amount of five shillings. A debate of considerable length ensued; in which Lords Holland, Grenville, and Lansdowne support ed the Bill ; and Lords Sidmouthl and Ellenborough opposed it. A division took place, when the Bill was 'lost, by 26 votes against 15.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Committee for the Cardigln Election reported, that John I , Member had commented, in a constitutional manner, Ward,.Esq. was duly elected, and that the petition was nut on those Petitions; and that he was right in •aying s salmis or vexatious. PETITIONS FOR PEACE. that the Executive Government should he left unfet- LortioLEVESON GOWER presented a Petition i tered upon that subject. Whenever he should think from the Master Manufacturers and others con• proper to bring forward his motions, then it would fleeted with the Staffordshire Potteries, in favour of be bis duty to state his sentiments. At present he Peace. The fresent • Vetitkmers, though among had only to reply to the last question of the Ron. those who had suffered most from the war, had not Gentleman, as to the participation of Government been seduced by the example of others into any acts in that Proclamation. With respect to the policy of of violence. 'I hey had borne the evils brought upon that measure, his Majesty's Government were not at them with exemplary patience, and they now ap- , all committed, as they were no parties to it. They preached that House with the greatest decorum, to did not suppose, however, that the circumstance of state their grievances. in a constitutional manner, an asylum being witted in this country to the it end to ask for that which they conceived would af-', fortunate Royal Family of France, 'should at all ford them relief. Ile concurred with them in think- fetter them, so as to prevent their exercising their ing peace very desirable, if a peace could be made own judgment with respect to what was proper for consistent with the honour of the country, and con- -them to do for their own interests and those who had sistent with good faith to our Allies. lie concurred• been theii former subjects. If, from having a resi with them in thinking the late glorious events on dence in this country, they were to be considered the Continent afforded grounds for entertaining a fettered, this would be changing their asylum into a more sanguine hope that such a peace might now be prison, which would be most disgraceful attd discre concluded than could reasonably .be entertained for ditable to this country. As to the poiley of the many years past. If the energies of those countries measure, he should pronounce no opinion at all which were now .disposed to rise in opposition to about it, but merely say, that neither he nor the the tyranny of Bonaparte, were properly called Government were in any degree parties to it. It forth—if the resources of those countries were pro- was an act of State belonging to the , parties who perly used—if the Allies abstained from directing I issued the Proclamation, anal not to his Majesty's their views. to selfish and partial aggrandizement,.'Government. evincing moderation in success, he thought when it Mr. STEPHEN rose to state, that he did not un was seen they were guided by such feelings, it derstand the Noble Lord (Gower) to declare, as re might he expected the elect of their conduct, even ; presented by Mr. Whitbread, that this was a favour on that country, which, from national pride, might I able opportunity for makieg peace, but that late oc be most -disposed to support Bonaparte, would be currences had rendered such an event more probable. such as to induce a sincere wish for, peace. While he As to the proclamation of Louis XVIII. he entirely concurred with the Petitioners in anxiously desiring i approved of it, and thought that the present situation the restoration of peace, he wished to state, that he of affairs on the Continent only rendered peace more did not agree with them that it would be expedient probable, uit pron.l4ed the restoration of the legi for that House to take the subject into considera- timate Monarch to the Throne of France, and (ion. Such a step, he feared ) Redd rather retard I threatened the destruction of the abominable military ►-~ stood, that of maintaii njaniter he warlike exi cev , ary,—, eil by user s::clifices A ..I.ich he li sound poll faith of th :ire•senting the Counti ; ani t.,%%ii and t're laid c - ,- ..- • y %; • • rt • it. , ... ' t• - 111110.• . . • ' ~/. than. — ---- accelere te that, i wblti 4.was their o hj eet to Re. • I. l lllg , 26 . '1". AN. ...... . . . . - complish. Ile . did n o t sa y t h at at no poriA, and ' . • • tON. . V acqnts44 ,the :of Xgreat, m !sty; and united Empire. Tednesday next, to The Marq f WELLESLE Y then presentadi under no circumstances, it would he prop er f or th a t• :oductien of ceryiin two or Orm' ns, which being shortly reacl,'' Rouse to interfere and t o otre i r c its fo a r d i r i i i c it e ancv, \l P inisto 5 o tti u rni : te : e e e. t n h d e duty of the 1i0u.,! to in. the ...roll; litte to the state of seemed tea! the Packers ana certain other de. on the, subjec iiteg t w o i rs e purpose'of their sctiOtloge . -Ides deployed by the East India pursued measures of s elfish. ngsmndizethent, forget. nee. This,' upon the ColePati7. Iriklige were , as the former, ordered to • h fu e l t t h li o at ug t h h t e of all war is peace, them !silent mode of pro-. be referred fis the Select camtnittee. . lame tine, that the , iiittsomultroir WAIL ' • . . ~terfere by addressing the Prince Regent, and _ pra • I - The Ma 1 8 or L I SD orne - Q% a ir p N pl consequence,E icitt i i n ons,which he ever , he h c e h h a a n d ge no o t f h i re i n ni a s b te le rch to ( 1 ) e l e a t t l i7 i ' r in i rZ t ; ns h i t % 4). ll : pon which the sy ras to be founded,. more imnlately, .o f bservations tending said had been mode to hi m, rose to call the attention to d o 'va - ...ry : thing : i n th e i r power to pr 4 , re a saf e :ements with a view of their Lordships to this aubject. With respect to and h onoura bl e peace , an d therefore lie could not pct. He thought a the question, which hc.. felt himself . called %Ron to Concur in the prayer of the Petitioners. Its th...ti .. .._ . ___