The Statesman. — London, England, 1822-02-27 00:00:00

i• - - it is part re.luctioe of the debt. Upon this question be would first state his opinion of the profit and loss attend ioir these two courses. What would be the advantage to any particular interest of this partial reduction of talr ation ? What proportion did five millions (for that was the excess in question) hear to the annual income and. chi annual revenue of the country ? The annual income was 218 millions, the revenue from fifty to eighty mil bons. •So that,* reduction of five millions wear bear a proportion of about one-tenth of the revenue, and about one-fiftieth of the income. Such a reduction lie outlay believed could not relieve the agrieattural inter _est ; indeed, he doubted whether it would be seriously felt. So much for the summed profit attending the re mission of these five usilltooa in taxes. He would now coosider the loss. This would consist in the giving up of that Sinking Fund, which, kept within reasonable "bounds, was the main prop of our national credit. The destruction of this Fund would certainly increase the in arrest of money; an increase which woulul be most se verely felt by the agricultural classes. The principal advantage of low interest, was, that it assisted that 'Class °which was suffering the most. In tact, by giving up .this Fund, we should he giving op on one hand what we gained upon the other. If, therefore, he was correct in his statement of the profit and loss, could those who re garded the true interests of the country, hesitate a mo .enent in their choice? He might here be allowed a few observations upon a political measure, which, like all other political measures, had had its fashion. Ile meant , *the principle itself of the Sinking Fund. This measure was sot entirely Mr. Pitt's, although he haul proposed it for the consideration of Parliament. When it was first .introduced, it was not objected to by those who were Trominent in their opposition to the Ministers of the Aar. Mr. Fox not only approved of the measure, but •assisted in the formation of the Bill in detail; and of fered some suggestions, which were properly and grate fully accepted ; and even after the death of the two great .men he bad mentioned, it had been warmly extolled Mr. Sheridan. Doubts haul been thrown upon its po in a work written, undoubtedly with considerable a - lity, by Dr. Hamilton, about theyear 1903 or 1804. Bet if he (the Earl) hid succeeded to his endeavours to un derstand Dr. Hamilton, he thought the amount of Me objection went to the retaining of a Sinking Fund I. •time of war • because he contended that what was bob rowed from that Fund during that time was lost to the country. Yet, notwithstanding all that had been urged by Dr. Hamilton and others npoo this subject, lie (t_be. girl) was firmly of opinion that the advantage of a War Sinking Fund more than counterbalaimed any possible -disadvantage resulting from it. it pessesard a moral ef. sect, which was to be taken into consideration as well as . the question of profit and loss. It should be recollected' that during the last war we were fighting for our very • existence • and that ode exertions in war gave us a more viefavourahle view of our 000dition than we should have in any other state. It had been contended, that with a War SiakioF Fund we merely received with the right hand and paid with the left; but what would be our site.' ation without a Sinking Feud ? Could we expect to go. en interminably in a state of peace? No doubt we hoped for 'continuance of pear.; we wished as much as poi sibliroe avoid it war r bet war Might come did skulls' we thee place ourselves in a *ligation which eery set eeedierg War must render worse and wore.? We ihoul4. Jakinio mind that every other country which bad a' no • tional debt had else a Mulder Fetid. • Prelate and Artie. eicalo it particular, were theletsconattries to' which oar atubtrowation should be direeteil. The Icirmer haul a &eking Vaud greater in proportion to its debt than versa awl the Sinking Funds'? the latter was so consi-. ioraltle as to promise theestinction of the debt iri twenty' .yearsa Should we then proclaim to all the world that, . with a national debt greater than that of any other, we took no measure, except during peace, to lessen it ? He trolled not; be trusted abut in the face of all Our diel solder we sbewld mainsail; sue Sinking Food thid • if WI leftour debt lb posterity, we sherd(' leave some • thing likes Fund•for the payment of it. He now califs to the question, whether any Measure could be devised for relieving tbeanstiess of the Agricultural Interest. • He - bid already mated his &We belief that that distrepp cookluot be asetilled to extrusive taxation ' • and even if it were otherwise, her waisitts fi ed that no reduction 'elf taxation Which Parliament bed the power to make could possibly reliore.• • He bad alsce stated his opinion as to the cause of the distress. That tans he believed to be a • peat-excitement, created by a warrin the course of which we lad $o contend actually for our existence. ' This excitement led to an over production of the articles of the'soil ; and high prices, which in our then situation were the natural consequence, forced the very poor land into anitivation. Why should not one production cause, with respect to agriculture, the same effect which it did to ever? other branch of the national wealth ? It wee impossible for any man not to khow that daring the lag war the high price of produce had actually forced Ls- , emote trams of poor land into high cultivation. In con: erlering this part of the subject, it was a matter ofcourse ' to observe upon the situation of this country towards Ireland, with respect ro the' imports of corn into the for. ref from the latter. These imports had been greater within the last three years than could be expected, after making every allowance foeciieunistances which might be supposed - to influence the importation. It was impos sible to conceal this fact ; fact which could be got rid of by no legislation whatever. But was no one, was no . Merest benefitted by this over production? It was the deny of Horernment and of Parliament to kohl - the ba taste with even hands, as it regarded all classes of the tommonity. For the Agricultural Interest he begged to expeesehis high respect. ' Be would even say, that if, witimitiojastice, betoolh lie permitted to throw a featberinto one of the similes it would be into that which contained the Agricultural intertst. But could It pos . - sthly be contended that there was no advantage to no person in the being able to purchase meat for fonrpence a pound instead of eithtpenee ? Conld it be said that Oslo was not a benefit, &stares it it went, to any class Whittatter? He was ready to admit, that he thought it to!ght go too far; but it was a subject which could not lie regulated by law. The consumer gained by the fall IN price; but the evil as far as regarded the produce most be left to curb itself. It was obvious that the want of profit capon produce would*diminish prodiction. lie tarok it to be a palpable mistake to say that the distress henefitted no one ; for, in the present instance, it bene-. a fitted the majority. lb all great towns it had worked benefit by lessening the amount of the poor rates. lie bad been at some trouble to ascertain this fact ; and he could pledge himself for the accuracy of his statement: The poor rites of the parish in' which their Lordships were assembled were neieqn so good a condition as they were at present. Its fact large masses Of the cow 'lenity had been benefitted by that which he repeated ought tat to be touched by legislatlie interference. Ile eat came to state to their Lordships a general outline of the measures to which his Majesty's tioverrrnient had thought it expedient to resort in die present situation the country. The first related to the reduction of the expenditure. Th's. in the course of the last year, would kale been much greater, had it not been for the situation of !relent': Whether Governmint in this reduction, had galfin far cootie', it was for Perlhment to decide; but ' would beg to refer their Lordships to the Estimate of tie Revenge sod-Expenditure, as settled by the Cons- - sillttee of Finance for the year 1817. The Committee gasified that the permanent Peace Establishment might *tth propriety be fixed at 17 'millions; bit the Estimates fit the present year would skew a reduction 0f1,200.00W. Weir tile sum voted by the Committee. He was free to Welt that drini redactions had been mode, which, in Lis opinion, shoald bevel em avoided but he wet pert, ~. • • • 1.14 THE STA' spaded that:the ,niiiwisi►x of expense 'had bden *ern lit a desire to submit to imonyenience. The next measarc to which the Oevernment bad directealtheir at tentreni, iraitbe securing of a Sliskiog Fund of at least .firemillione The next was the re du c ti on of taxa ti on , itiCampribed without a violation of publiciaitba and without endangering the public safety. The saving by a reduction of , the interest of a portion of the nifional debt, was to be applied to the reduction of a tax upon an reticle most in consumption; and further reductions might confidently be expected hereafter. In particular we might look for a diminution of that which at present ha might call a dead expense to the country. He alluded M the half-pay and allowances. This expense, 'bevy as it was, we were bound by every principle of law and justice to defray; for it was paid printd pally to those who had fought oar battles in the lite l larder's§ contest. It amounted to nearly five a sum . greater than the whole expense of our army and navy, at no very early period. From this charge we might of course look for a gradual reduction. It was in the nature of a life annuity; and though the reduc tion might be slow, it was certain. He would here request the attention of their Lordships to the Resolu tion passed by Parliament in the year 1819, expressive of its determination to maintain a Sinking Fund of five millions, to be applied against the whole capital of the national debt. A Fund thus solemnly guaranteed, it was the bounden duty of Parliament to uphold; but whether it would suffer the accumulations of this Fund to increase, for the advancement of its first object,•or would reface taxation by the amount of those accumulations, was a question which he ad- 1 mitted might be open for the consideration of Perlis latent, and which might be materially intinenced by the pressure of temporary circumstances. He now came to the proposed loan of four millions, for the relief of that distress which was se very properly a material subject for their Lordships' consideration.— Brat before he stated his views on this important topic, l he would shortly notice the circumstance connected with the Bullion Cammittee of 1819. In 1919 it was, proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and himself to pry the Bank tire or six millions, prepara tory to their being called upon to resume Cash Pay ments. It was however well known that when the Bullion Counnittee had made its report, the Bank urged the necessity of a larger repayment, and de sired that the sum previously named by Ministers should be extended to 'ten millions The. Bank was considered to have demanded more than was y, tint at the same time it was judged right to comply with their request, by making a repayment to that amount. He was however reconciled to it by what had occurred in the Committee. By referring to the evidence it would be seen that when the question was asked, " What course would be taken if their Manes of gold should prove unequal to the demand the an swer given was, " That they must lower the rate of their discounts." This had reconciled him to the demand thus made. Now, though he was ready to give the Bank every credit for the purity of their motives, Ind believed them to let on the , brat judg ment they conld obtain in most cases, it pan a moat extraordinary eircanistaece, that at den monseir when, the market rate of interest for stoney was not mom tbra 4 per Cent, the Bank did not discount at less than 5. This was the Mote remarkable when another fact which was known to every one was Mk.' en into consideration, namely, that the exchanger having been for • long time favourable. to this county.. bad brought an immense. geentitrof trea sure 10 Sits Sank, which was now , is their peeping. Though. the Hank continued to dibioant at 5 per cent, they bad consented to advance 4 million pounds on Exchequer pills at three per cent. interest with a view of relieving the Agricultural Distress, This sum it was considered , by being advanced in loans granted to the Parochial Authorities, or by being employed through the medians of the Commissioners of Public Works, er by being used in both ways, would tend to relieve the landed interest, and greatly facilitate the accomplishment of the object in view.— The principle on which this suet of four million pounds was to be advanced, had already been recog sized when • similar 'unsure was resorted to for the relief of the manufacturing interest, and he now avowed that he had the best authority fur stating, that it would in all probability afford great relief. When Le said this be hoped no man would take up the idea that he meant to say, the measure IM had recoils meoded, ally more than any other, 'redid work won ders and remove the evil complained of immediately; bet what he meant to hold oat was this, that in the judgment of his Majesty's Ministers, it would afford a considerable palliation from the esteasion of the circulation. No difficulty could be anticipated as likely to grow out of it, affecting the currency, for the conditions on which the advance was to be mad,,, gave the Bank the power, in the event of the exchange becoming unfavourable, to claim the repayment of each million at three months notice. This expedi ent had from the first appeared to Win well caten ated to meet the evil which most loudly tatted for redress: and nothing that be had heard at sit tended to alter that opinion. Under peculiar circumstances i might have been unnecessary. If, for instance, the measure of lowering the Bank disrouots bad been adopted, such an advance might not have been requir ed ; but as the Bank continued to discount at Five per Cent., it appeared to him in all respects applicable to the present situation of the country. There was One other subject on which he must touch. Their Lord ships wereaware that a Committee of the Commons had sat in the I.tst Session ,uf Parliaineut, me the Corn Laws. Their Report was on their Lordships' table. That Committee had been revived in the present See. sloe, to consider whether any alteration in the Corn Laws had become necessary. He doubted whether any immediate relief could be afforded by altering the Corn Laws, but at the same time some modifications might be made without departing from the general spirit which would prove in many respects beneficial. The existing law was found defective in this—that it .pve the corn grower a perfect monopoly, till the prier of wheat rose to eighty shillings, and then in stead of admitting a gradual *applj of foreign corn, 'it allowed of its being throin:ln teasels hate our markets. This change was tea great, pawing at pace from an absolute monopoly—fium an absolute prohi bition, to the moat unrestrained importation. The i sudden transition from one system to 'Lordlier, diaini trieally opposite in is character, was tojurions, end was ttartefuse desirable to ascertain whaithrgehitt molt in.t be altered with advantage, Hs Sue,OllPM ,t ILO '.1•1 for those papers, he desired to lay before tli. House, holding himself ready to supply any bribes explanations that might be reqeired. He wished it to be distinctly understood, that he agreed first, that the public expenditure should be reduced so far as wee: consistent with the safety of the country and fidelitt to its engagements; 2dly, that where it was possible to alleviate the public burdens by taking off taxes,' this should be done, so that that principle was not abandoned by which he was determined to stand or fall, the maintenance of public credit, anti the esta blishment of an efficient Sinking Fund. He eon chided by moving for the production of certain returns similar to those lately moved for in the other House. The Marqness of LANSDOWNE began by observ ing that so strongly was he impressed with a sense of the importance of the matter before the house, that if the Noble Earl had not anticipated him, he should have thought it his duty to call the attention of their lAirdships to the soikteet. He was better pleased, however, that the Noble Earl who bad conducted the Administration of this country now for some years, should state to the House the effects of measures over which he and his colleague. alone bad had cootroul. lie agreed in the general course taken by the Noble Earl in the discussion of this subject ; but he was surprised that the Noble Earl 'horrid admit the ex tent of the taxation under which the country la boured. anti at the same time deny that these taxes had no connection with the distresses of the country. lie (Lord Lansdowne) hoped the Noble Earl would be enabled to make the reductions of taxes he bad pro mised. for be could tell him that this was the only way of giving effectual relief to the country, as he hoped to be able to show that the amount of taxes with whirls the country was now saddled, bid a direct bearing upon the distress which so generally prevail ed.—(lfear !)—This opinion he gave fearlessly. Ile was aware that the Noble Earl and lion. Gentlemen in another place had said that it was the prevailing and fashionable opinion of the present day to ascribe all onr distresses to excess of taxation, hot that that wa% a vulgar error.—(llear !) Notwithstanding this h. (Lord Lansdowne) would still considering the subject he preferred attending to th dictates of common sense, than of hollig gu id e d bt the delusive doctrines of Gentlemen o h., castor dote, from their wudies with new f meted doctrines, an , ' who even went so far as to ead:ion the house the fashionable errors of the country He then con tended that the amoontof taxation was insepsrahly con fleeted with the present distrosses of the country.(Clear.) It required no great research to be convistreti tbs• taxes conferred no benefits. Thu imposition of tax, had in general the effect of creating high price s though he did not mean to say that with the presen prices the taxes had muck connection. If the taxes had nothing to do with the present prices, they had mach to do with the means of suffering by these prices. Taxation had the erect of preventing the firmer from accommodating his means to the absence _ _ . . _ _ . . of consumption. If the Noble Earl could but int the means of consumption, he would afford the most effhtnal relief. Taxation bad the effect of opposing an increased consumption. Taxation threw obstacles -in the way of recovering from the dist of the country. It was admitted by the Noble Earl that some parts of the cemmunity benefited by the condi tion of the country. He had said there was 1001 .0 or las of this distress prevalent in other parts of the world. He (Lord Landsdowne), however, denied that distress prevailed in Freon to the extent stated by the Noble Earl. The fact • was, that France was never in so prosperous a condition. If in other places din prevailed, it was attributable to local mare: far. in Poland, Flanders, and the north of France, their distresses arose from a superabundance of corn which this country was, during the war, in the habit of consuming. The Noble Lord surely could not mean to advance the cl . of other countries as any consolation to this country in its dilliculties. But the Noble Earl, in saying that taxation was not the cans. of the distress, was inconsistent with himself. If a reduction of taxation was not a boon, why did the liable Earl state that it was his wish to reduce as pity taxes as possible; and, in any couirry, 5,000,0001. could not be matter of indifference. The Noble Earl bad advanced, is proof of the pritoperons state of the country, that there was mach ground in a state of cultivation now which was pasture before. But this was in itself an evil. The fact was, that dur ing the war a stimulus was given to agriculture, and the distress now felt was • consequence of the prices sod demand fallidg off upon the return of peace. The only way of correcting the effects of this state of things would be to increase the demand. The same observations applied to Ireland, where the consuming p ,veers not being' equal to the population, she was obliged to deluge the markets of this country with her produce, and this aggravated the distress which prevailed here before. Having shown that taxation was connected with the distresses of the country, he would-now show that the natural consequence of a reduction of taxation would be to afford relief under the :present distressed circumstances in which the people were placed. He would address himself to the plans laid down by the Noble Earl fur bringing about the reduction of taxes, which, from his own •rge• meet, the Noble Earl contended, would be a hoot The first of these plans was by what he would call the ridiculous expedient of reducing the interest upon the national debt; secondly, by the reduction of the national expenditure, which the Noble Earl contended was already carried too far; and lastly, by the maintenance of a Sinking Fund, the surplus of which could go yearly in diminution of the pub lic burdens. Upon the first of these plans he should observe, that • redaction of int on the debt was a hardship upon the public cre ditors. He bad also to complain of the manner in which the proposition was made to the stockholders, by calling upon the dissenters and not the assentors to subscribe their names, because this was giving to an act which ought to have been optional, all the force and appearance of a legal obligation. It was possi ble that the cottony would pay off the debt, but there was no room for supposing that it was sew in so desponding a state. It was only in circumstances of the last necessity that the slight est breach of faith should be committed with the pub * creditor. As to the second proposition*, rodeo* iK the public expeaditure, he contended that the l]liable Earl weeld net get entire credit, whets he 111•' aatiaA that the retrenchments lad been already cars . - JA-._ .Jldll.6—_ A as for as possible ; for he and his connotes h a d often asserted the lame in Parliament before. A s the last proposition, be wished to ask whether or sot there was a real Sinking Fund. This Fond bad bees so often diverted from the purposes f or w hi ch it wis originally intended, that lie could not believe th ere wee ',eh a feed in existence. to 1113 Mr. FluslO t . son declared that Parliament was applying the Siok. l ing Fond to purposes foreign to those intended fey llr Pitt. Althostgh the Chancellor of the Exelseep oo dii resolve then to abandon that plan, on which M r , pie had established the operation of the Sinking 1 , 2 ,0 , yet he said he had the same object in view, aid w oi od sooner arrive at the and contemplated by Mr. Pitt._ that was, that he would engage still for every 1. 4 a to pay itself in forty-fireyeara. But he (the Mailm en of Lansdowne) would ask if they had then the swam of effecting that promise? Were they then able , show that they had the meant of redeeming thcoe loans? Had they the means of returning then to tb, principle of the Sinking Fund as established by 11r. Pitt? Their Siakiag Fund of fire enilliere was as more adequate , o the redemption of the debt is forte• fire years, than they were at Front able to token the whole National Debt. On the principle of pub';; expediency and of public policy, they shonld diaisish the }eedle!' of taxation, which pressed so heavily as the industrious classes of the community. The find. holders would consider their best security to ai l , from the flourishing conditioo and from the prosfer;o of ail classes. He would not then detain their 1 0 0. ships by following the Noble Sari through all o f machinery of his Sinking Fund. They All stood es the single principle of borrowing money (coin use per. son to pay it to another—of raising money at a high interest, to pay off money paying less interest. Tb., were principles which would necessarily lead MO* destruction of any thing like prosperity. The Noble Marquest then adverted to the opinions of Doctor Ne• milton on the true nature of a Sinking Fuel, 10 uaintained that the doctrine which he laid doors en sound and rational. But the principle of the Sinking Fund, as at first established. had been long timer's+, ilvay—for what reasons be would not then state—bo he contended that no bing could equal in aloonlio :he present system. Were his Majesty's 31iniste; weak enough to suppose that they could impose to the umlerstanding of the people: Could the Noble Earl expect to succeed in convincing *he people Cot the affairs of the nation were improved in any, the slightest deoree, by the proposed measures? Wasit because the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to :sake money out of one kind of stork, and created an , 'her kind of stock to the same or to.a greaterameao, :bat he expected to impose oo the andererandings of Ilse landholders? What was called a Sinking fail eked beer. convenient fur us in peace and in war, bo lot to call it a Sinking Fund was absurd. hr, 'minded him of the part of" Lord Peter, in the Tah of a Tub." Lied Peter would lay the worst and da stalest bread before his brothers, and arnald mewl them to eat it, swearing that it was the hest of mo. ton that bad been laid before them.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—The stale bread was as much entithd to the name of mutton, as that to the same of Sinking Fond. However anxious he felt for au additional re. deletion sf faxes to the amount of four on five millioro, pat he would Cut be a person to sanction the applies. lien of tbat Fund, if he could think the prinepledir, us it then existed, necessary to the keeping sap *lce of the public stocks. But the fact was, Mats. witch thing was necessary, for a real Sinking rand limy had so Sink* Fond. In the year 1919, go fir Ina having a Sinking Fund of five millions, they bad only one million and a half. He would ask them public credit was in any degree iojnred by that dr:;• cieocy ? Were tbe public stocks dep d?on t" contrary, the prices of stocks were far higher tin' "meal, or could be expected. The facility also of lag money did not depend on the Sinking Fund, Pr slat was greater without a Sinking Food. That regulated by the profits of capital. The profit' et capital regulated the rate of interest. When the pr , fits of capital were less in such cases, there was the greater facility of raising money, and at a less rate o; interest ; neither was it owing to the existence of Sinking Fund. He was surprised to beer the Noble Earl talking of withdrawing from that fond what bob been already withdrawn. A Sinking Fond of 17,000,000/. had not existed long since. The Nab Earl observed, that a remission of taxation to We amount of three or four militant, would not praises any great effect oo the state of the country. Bet leo it certain that the application of five millions, for years would have so much erect In reducing thr debt ? It was not stated hr the Noble Earl, 'br iber taxes were to be taken off in proportion to the fire millions. A remission of taxes to of amount of 1,250,0001. would have a great effect — He would not dwell on that part, but be wished" state whet the country hail to expect from the Flo proposed by the Noble Bari. By the annual speirp tion of five millions, to the reduction of the debt of eight hundred millions, they would reduce shout few millions, in eight years; hut a remission of moos to the amount of 1,230,0001. annually, for the '. +e period, would produce a better effect on the m't , the country. la the year 1019 there was as 0 10 ' 1 of taxes to the amount of three millions. The tan": quence was, that after six years, and after the app'" cation of the five millions, they would have, in more taxes that' they had in 1810. It coned WO" be said that they would have any relief from meant, w ithin that time. If they were resolved to serve t " country, more benefit might be conferred ea it, in tw coarse of six years, by a eatniseion of tales NM' easount of 1,200,0001. The diminution of tacit"' much more effectual than a diminution of the debt The operative of the former was two-fold; it wo rd increase the produce of the country, and the consort non of that produce. The Noble Earl had ca lled:: him (Lord Lansdowne)—as he certainly had a cell,ti tLss,; as togive well ve i 4 a h a o.ep spinier wit un h other t ,N ope ra ti on obl e Lord o i of the i plait he proposed, and of the future state of theca! try. He tires of opinion that the coaster was atil"( sent is a state of great distreee. But if a system 4 retrenchment were adopted ; if taxes to the amosili.;, four or five millions were taken of from seredni til a :n articlei of consumption, a greater reduction th tbr c"terpintia would be effected, and the cootellat! o l c a iDe c re ras amel ter r es e ttn nu p e t . ioq n o t i throe a iv rt .A. Wes taat eron e ld i p h t ili m .r ] would act more wisely' by affording retest. rer IA