The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1808-05-28 00:00:00

NUMBER 1874.) I .11 PE (CIA L PAKLIA4IIEA' T. HOUSE OF LOH DS, VAT ti qtr, IVMAATON and other, brought up, from the House ,•,,mo one, the Yuan. Exprodit nee Comminowo of In , IND, and the Ductumul Bressukk's sunuity ; ft , slats, mammy private 'lithe %CM brought up, Ind arm trble, awl read a drat time. ROMAN CATHOLICS OF IRELAND. On the Order of the Day being read for the leise taking into its consideration the Petition of Boman Catholics of Ireland, . Lord GRENVILLE rose, and addressed the ~ie to the following effect:—" Afy Lords, in 4 ing this day before you the important subject mLich I had given notice on is previous occasion, . .._ _ ~, iceht necessary to make some few observations 0 the postponement which I had a short time 1 ,,•r proposed._ 1 feel it necessary not only to ex thenthe causes why such A propitiation appeared to' oecessary, bat also to put your Lordships possession of that information, which I know ,s Ifou-e will receive with regret, that domestic dferings (alluding we presume to the death of :vain Bettesworth) still operate to prevent the riendance of my Noble Friend (Earl Grey), who ' all men is peculiarly qualified to take an active .tre in those great questions which affect the ,irocter, the security, and the prosperity of his •untre. Independent of the loss whicil I, in :41;iitg forward that great question, must sustain,' root the absence of his talents, and the want of . 16 co-operation, independent of that support and ".siatance, which his elevated character must, in his !loose, bestow upon every measure which he irivocates. the Petitioners whose cause this day it fallen to my humble talents to support, must feel I . -on; emo r lons of d regret, both at the absence of the s::f h t Lo that iNaoaan st nce y. the tu e r' ff iazt t h . olyzc l urren r c e e na o t f iv the autherity, but the desire of that distin wsliell character, to assure your Lordships, that motion which, on this night, I shall have the onion- to move, has his most full, complete, and ,cided concurrence that he feels, as I do, the me urgency for its ; daption, and with me is of ,Onion that, with its ultimate accomplishment, the unity sad strength of the British empire is 'den ied. But, my Lords, although it was with reloc ate I did then conceive it my duty to make the otiun, for postponing the consideration of this rest subject, I now feel, from the circnnistances 'inch, immediately affecting this question, have see trawspired, from the manner in which it has it discussed in anotherviace, from the visible ef a it has produced on the public mind, that such tponetuent has led to the best and happiest er tr. It is impossible for me to feel greater grafi cation, then in reieeting on the advantages which. ve arisen. Whether 1 consider the taglneace Lich has been alrea d y shed on this great object, k the important 'than; which has bee; effected in great portion of the public opinion ; that influ lee 'um! that change i will not ascribe. either to characteristic talents and superior wisdom of the . . I.stinguished individual (Mr. rattan) who intro it, because it was impossible for him to ibis ,t any great measure of legislation, with n exciting the umaniasous verdict of ability and istriotism ; nor to the temper, honourable as this nue, with which it was discussed; nor yet to what ps might produce a more pOwerfiil effect, to he inefficiency and feebleness which characterized resistanee. No, my Lords, I ascribe it to other !ties, which afford to my mind the fullest plaid tion, because they immediately tend to the na •inal safety, and have, since their short operation, onsiderably increased the sources of our s;rength, 4 A : t h e means of our security. Ido only tru s t diet he! result of this night's discussion will tend to in .sse those advaatages, and that at least this ri '44 will exist between this House and that Armin whi4.4l I allude, that we will At lea..t con- Ince the world, that, whatever maybe our decision .ns night, we are most anxious to promote the great hjeet of unanimity, which alone can constitute Monti greatness. In tracing the advantages of .his iolluence, it is impossible that the effect which must have on those respectable persons, who hem presented this petition to the Legislature, could ...sp e our observation. They mast and will feel he great and beneficial change which has manifest- J itself, and must profit by the prospect which it preseots to the siiccemful accomplishment of their hint... For myself I can suy, that 1 did not want say example io excite mit in the exercise of that imperative duty. which has on this, as on a former occasion. led me to press the cause of our Catholic fellow subjects on the consi deration of this House. On that occasion I did re is-ire, eve n learn those by whom I was opposed. thin testiin my, that the endeavours I had made to carry this obi"ct into execution, were at least de stoviii.4 of the most matured and serious .attention. Thu night I shall pursue the same line of pro ceeding as I did on the former occasion. I shall rsrefully abstain from my topics end any expreA. eons calculated' to excite, by ally bitter remem brance of suffering, those passions and irritatinos, which it is the essential ob j ect of this great work, that I flower) sincerely advocate. to compose for ever. The feeling of my mind is to cunt us much as possible to that result, whit li can best accelerate, between every dm* of our feilow-stihje-ets, concilia tion, airdeonsequently promote the gr•atut•„ and security of our empire. When I consider the cha racter of this Assembly, I still think that your Lt.; dr shins will feel the same lively lotto-NA to obtain end ; and that although we mar ,hirer Ns to the expedi;4lCy of the means, this 110:1, e «ill not, ul the mode of dim-minion, be in I to deviate flow that temper and propriety, so laudalili mar<t•ti the dincussions r plats, and It. on the last occasion wiieo stil-,jeet was I, a as honourable to prai , e-wwok of this 1',•..1'.% thim prelittrll9 ry I wi,h to advinl to an br Arittob i 3 opinion o hich had been given on the day I tnade a motion for postpoueineut, by a Noble Friend of mine, (Earl Moira), whose opinions so very deserv edly stand high in the opinion of this House and of the country. That opinion went to regret that the great subject of the Catholic Petit should be at this moment pressed into public discussion.— When that opinion was expressed, I did feel it my duty to state to yonr Lordships, that, with respect to the propriety of bringing this question before the Legislature; I had not given an opinion ; that in the decision which led to the presentation of the present petition, I was not consulted ; and 1 did state, t:.at the only question then was, whether your Lordships were willing to enter into the discussion of . its merits or not ? And give me leave, my Lords, to recall your recollec tions to sentiments which 1 had advanced in this House in the first Session of the present Par- liniment.. takiug a yiew of the state of the em pire as it stood at tbse period. in claiming, iu the manner in which I was best able, the attention of the new Government to our most dear and portant interests, is pointing out to them the most effectual and most salutary method io which they could secure our safety mid advance our greatness, I did most ,seriously and sincerely recommend that which appeared to me the most paramount, under the formidable dangers with which our em pire was menaced, namely, the prompt and fullest discussion upon the state of Ireland, and the vital necessity of adopting such means as were best fitted to conciliate that great and respectable body of its population, our Holum' Catholic fellow subjects. (Mar ! hear ! hear !) And whilst I impressed upon the King's Ministers the actual necessity of their performing that great duty, hot alone to the Catholics, but to the nation ; not alone to Ireland, but to Great Britain ; I did in con templating the conduct which the Irish Catholics in my view ought to pursue; fotribly recommend on their part forbearance ' • I did so, because I wished the liberality of the British nation, and the spirit of concession in its Government, to antici pate and outrun the hopes and the exertions of that respectable class of the people. 1 did more over add, that there might be circumstances affect ing and felt by the Catholics of Ireland, of the force and influence of which it was impossible for me or any other Noble Lord to estimate the strength ; nor have I now any reasons to change the declarations which I then express( d. At any time I never could take upon myse!f to say, that this or that period was not proper for a great portion of His Majesty's honest subjects, labouring under grievances, and subject to restrictions, to lay their case before Parliament, mid solicit the consti tutional organ for redress. But if 1 could enter tain a contrary opinion—if I ever did doem the pressing of this great question at that moment injudicious—the events of the last two days, the general feeling that has been diffused, growing out of those events, must convince every reflecting man that the •pport 'ty was both fit and season able for the discussion of this measure ; and I do most strongly feel the strength of those motives, which induced the petitioners to bring their case before the Legislature. They have declared it their decided wish to adopt such a line of conduct as was calculated to keep the hopes and expec tations of the great body of subjects, with whom they were so intimately connected, fixed irre moveably upon the United Parliament. They wish to make that the centre from which every benefit which they solicited was to emanate, to make it not the some, alone of privileges or of rights, bat the fountain of every blessing which it was possible for a free people to enjoy. —(Hear! Hear!) How then could any man, unacquainted as I am with the local ciretiuistauces of Ireland, bow was it possible fur use to put my private opinior in opposition to declarations sincerely avowed, and so powerfully recommended ? No. The view of my duty led me to support the petition when pre sented, and in the course of the events which have occurred since that period,l haven reason to regret the line of conduct which I have selected. It is, therefore, that I do this night hope that the result of this discussion, in place of giving any offence to the respectable persons whose cause is now before you, will not only avoid such an effect, but will ill duce them to look up with confideuce. not alone for the ultimate accomplishment, but for the acceleration of their hopes. Again, I may ask, were there not additional reasons, of • na ture and cogency sufficient to impel the Ca tholics of Ireland to renew their solicitations fur redress? They could not help referriir• to the great changes which had taken place in 'Europe, and to the iullnence which such changes must have produced, not alone upon Ireland, but upon the general and vital interests of the British empire.— . They saw that the trenches, which, when last they were before the Legislature, the enemy had only opened, were now considerably advanced ; that the lines of circumvallation were thrown up around us; and that therefore the moment was arrived when it was incumbent upon the Government to a all upon every description of subjects in the empire, to stand forth and display Jolt patriotism, that valour, and that wisdom, which, I trust, in the hour of our country's danger, will be ever found to belong, to every branch of our poi Was it not, then, natural for those who felt that dan ger, and foresaw its influence. again to appeal to Par fitment, and to claim from their hands, at the mo m. when the trumpet was sounding for tiattle, that confidence and that trust which could send them to the contest with every stimulus to loyalty, and an iinpelling zeal for national success? Even v.ns the determination to press the claim intrinsi cally wrong, surely this House will be slow to con demn nil action originating iu such patriotic senti ments, :1101 in so laudable a source. But. my there was another motive, powerful in its operatiou, which induced the petitioners to ap proach the Legislature at this period. It Lad ben SATURDAY. MAY 28, lboB. the unfortunut,lstate of Ireland to hove been here- talon: divided by religious animosities, and to be exasivenitcst by the rancours which the existence of such prejudices have in all ages produced. Such a state of things could not hat aggravate the diffi culties which stood in the way of concession. it was to be apprehended, that in your endeavours to redress the grieVlinreal of those on whom disabili ties were imposes!, you would run dui risque of alienating the favoured party, whose couse ektietwe and pls.:indices were supported Oil exclusion. This wits a case of (difficulty, of no ordinary de scription ; and though, according to the immutable. prinCiples of right, justice ought to be admi ni.dcred, and men entitled to their rights ought to be put in possession of them, still there was this considenition of expediency, that the conciliation of the one might and would produce the hostility of the other. Fortunately for Irel.usd, fortonutely for the best interests of the empire, this difficulty . - is removed; and partyll'orn the sense of publi d i: danger, which all classes feel, partly from that preeept of w;:.tom which enjoins men to merge trivial apprehensions in great sources of danger and alarm, and, in a great degree, from the gra dual, though slow pmgress of the human mind, in liberality and -frankness, the Catholics of Ire- land saw, that they were not now as they were heretofore, likely to be obstructed is the pro secution of their claims for redress by the ani mosities of their Protestaut Countrymen. They perceived that these very persons, whose opposition they before experienced, and the security of whose establishment was made the pretext for Catholic depression, were now not only willing to forego their oppositio r, but were most prominent in com ing forward with declarations, that they did believe, as well fur the safety of the empire and the secu rity of the Protestant Establishment, it was most advisable and most necessary to admit their Catho- lie fellow suldects into a full participation of this blessings and benefits of the British Constitution. Under such circumstances, the Petitioners appear before your Lordships. with a request, not alone necessary to their interests, but recommended by the voice of their whole Protestant brethren, as absolutely vital to the security of their establish me,nt. In such a point of view, even were they dismissed from your Lordships' bar, they would retire with the gratifying consciousness of hav ing produced to their country, even from the discussion, great and incalculable advantages. I mean, my Lords, to move fer a Committee to take into consideration this Petition, as I think the prayer of it may, with advantage to the empire, be conceded immediately, and to its full extent ; but even if it were not proper to do so, it will give an opportunity of entering into the detail of all the grounds upon which it rests, and to aseertaiu who iher or not it may be proper to comply with it par tially. By doing so it may also be determined with what meesorts it aught to be accompanied, iu order to afford effectual security to our establishment iii Church and State, which establishment lam con fident these petitioners have no desire to weaken ; bnt, on the contrary, are animated with an ardent desire to maintain and support. My Lords, it has often been doubted, during the course of the dis cussions of this question, by the advocates of those restrictive laws upon this class of the community, whether, by the bare passing of such an Act all the dangers of Ireland are at once to be removed, and a period of prosperity is at once to commence; but, I trust, that the question has never been urged nor supported upon such unfounded and unrea sonable expectations. It will, in every case, be found, my Lords, that the mischiefs of persecution must loci .T survive the laws which authorised them; and that it is much more easy to express disap probation, or cease to act upon a system long es tablished, than to hope, that by such a determi nation you will immediately remove all the evil consequences and mischief's to which it has given rise. I have never looked at the ream' of these restrictions but as a matter which ought to be ac compaui.d with some other provisions, for the colts ' piste protection of your civil and religions esta blishment. In former debates upon this important j uestion, some reference has been made to the opi uious of • person of whom I never speak bat with respect and veneration. I mean the opinions of Mr. Pitt upon this subject. It is well known, that he never proposed the . removal of these restrictions, unaccompanied with checks and protections for the civil government of the kingdom. I never, my Lords, entertained an opinion upon the subject, thut was not only in perfect consonance with his opinion, but that was not formed by our ma mma communication with each other; and at the period of tba Union, when it was his inten tion to bring this matter forward, 1 was com pletely apprised of his sentiments regarding it. Undoubtedly I must do him the justice to say, that the measure of a total removal from all the remaining restrictions im upon the Ca tholics of Ireland, was in ed by hini to form but one part of an extensive system which he meant to provide for the interest, happiness, safety, and prosperity of Ireland. It is proper, my Lords, that yon should know what was the nature of that system of regulations intended to be adopted by that lamented individual, and it is desirable that you go into this Committee, in order that every individual may see the propriety of following up, to the full extent, the measures intended by that great man ; and 1 feel convinced that th.ere is not one person of Great Britain oe I re l a nd who would entertain a different senti ment upon the subject. My Lords, his idea was, that it would be necessary to take a dis tinct and detailed view of the real situation of Ireland, in all its various branches and beer ings ; to look to its general establishment, in order to render the measure to be adopted more complete, and more fit to attain tht ob ject in flew, than it could Le by allowing other :netters to remain in their ii _sent situation.— these benefices ue church is annexed, arid *great majority of them have uo glebe-houses ler the clime gymen to reticle io. This, therefore, is a part at the subject, s 4 hich, in a Committee, you will natu rally thiuk necessary to be inquired into, and Male remedy suggested. You will also deem it miu . .. site to look to the state of the Cutholic Church, at the period when you do away the restrictions allud ed to; cud I ►peak, my Lords, of this,part of ti e subject with the more satisfaction and pleasure, as the very ideas that were then io contemplation, of giving to the Crown the cootroul over those persona more rit.ticuloirly entrusted with the care oft C`a• tholic Church, as fully as is done in resardAto the• Protestant Church, have been actually in part car ried into execution. I never did entertain a.doubt that the gond sense of the Catholics of Ireland, that their a " t•lotiaar, and desire to meth their defe rence and submission to the Constitutiosi, tittle wish to ctiltivate as intimate a Union as possil,l , and to place their tlertitlf.m* upon the Clever! . ment of the country, would induce them to erg - sent to any reasonable proposal made to theta op.'s, that subject, so BA to remove any difficulties might exist. Upon a former occsii.n, you will member, much was said upon the subject of t!:e hierarchy of Ireland: and that a great deal of alarm was raised, (and it perhaps wa rs % th•:n neces sary), all to the nature of the authority that ex ercised by the Catholic Bishops in Ireland: never, my Lords, lool:ed to the removal tl . r. I' restraints, from which 1 now wish o:rum to I breed, nithout an inclination that it ►hould companied with certain other proriskins. It hat n..w been emphatically declared, by the CathOlics thee. , selves, (and there as every Tease° to believe ; iteai co-, cere in their declaration) ; that they wilt eV: nee ever" disposition to place in the hands of 1110 Crown tie( power of penuittisig any individual to the exercise ef their religious functions. 1 doubt not but this cor.- . . . . aideration will have great weight in your Lordsiipe winds ; not that lel er entertained ai,2, doubts upon the subject, nor that if your Lordshipsinid go:?. john the discussion, I would have hesitated to hale* brought it forward as an object of conciliation iu Ireland, but because 1 knew that great doubts bad existed in the minds of the public, as to wheat these concessions were to be made to the Catholics without the possibility of Government reservin& this wished-for ensttoul over those who were at the head of their Church. Such a statement has now been made ' as will remove all dubiety from your Lordships minds, and from then e of the public, upon this particular ;iet of the subject. Another point will fall to be considered in the Connnittee, I mean the situation of the superior as well as the inferior Roman Catholic . ' Clergy in Ireland. You will not, my Lords, have discharged your duty . in looking to this great . question, in all its various details, unless you will have provided a decent subsistence (fns no more is required) for those who exercise the functions cf the Catholic Religion, to a body of people, not 1r 111 than three millions, sod who are dependent for bread upon the lowest and poorest persons of that persuasion. This was one of the other objects suggested in the mind of that great man of whom I have already spoken, as a check against any danger to be apprehended trout a relaxation cf those laws they complained of ; end I think it is one that could, with your Lordships, meet with no difficulty, if you went into such a Committee as I now propose. You would then have the oppor tunity of further investigating a subject already much discussed-1 mean that which relates to the oath of supremacy. It has here doubted whetist or not the Catholics withdrew any of that allegiance which the subjects of this kingdom ewe to their Sovereign, by their submitting in some degree to the controul of a foreign power ? 1 inn convinced that they are as completely subjects of the British empire, as any of those persons can, or ought to be, who are of other religious persuasions. Ism fully persuaded, that when that matter comes to be in- vestigated by your Lordships, you will perceive that the opinion which has hitherto been enter tained its to the supremacy Of the Pope, whether right or wrong, is, with respect to its op.:ration as to any measure of Government, whether is the au thority of the state, or the obedience of the sub ject, merely speculative. It merely relates to the religious opinions of those Catholics, anti does east ititerfere, in any one particular, either directly or indirecty, with that tempodal Sovereignty which exists in the Government of this country. There can be no doubt that they do not acknowledge any spiritual supremacy in the King, as was the case in the days of limey the Eighth, a man who enter tained the most vain and extravagant fancies. In *lst sense the spiritual supremacy of the Ring is disclaimed, although he be still acknowledged as the head of the Chuich in matters of Government. This is the same Sort of supreinucy that is acknow ledged by your Lordships. It is not only the doc trine of the Church of Rome, but. is 'also the doctrine of the two established Churches of Great Britain. In Scotland, so far from its ever hating been admitted to the extent claimed by Henry the Eighth, the people of that country do, iu no sense whatever, acknowledge* tempo ral power to he the bead of their established Church. I state this, my Lords, in order that yn u may see upon what subtle sod nice distinction those differences in matters of opinion may tuns.— Persons may consistently, with an entire and sided allegiance, hold that faith which is held by the Catholics. Upon this point, however, 1 shOnld be desirous that your Lordships should not rest merely upon argument, but that you should, by entertaining and investigating those doubts which yon may now payees, enter more minutely into the subject s and adopt those Illet1411:CO which will tend to the security of envier end good go vernment. lins was another 0: the objets iu view at - t ; p Vil l. l ' t/116‘ .., / ,‘",, \ .Ar ,(1 - 4 .."# M )I .4 f. ' „‘" ./ i A ,". .r 1 c 1 r .I, ... , . .44 •••,..".7 i ... • • siek - I ..•• v , t, • ' '''.. \. - $ 3 •14114u5: 4 ..11(t ,• • - _ .i. , -4 .7.: - - .- PRICE SITIVESCE. There are at present upwards of eOOO parishes Ireland, which are consolidated into little more th * 1000 ben^fi"ee, mud even to a great number refo D. Is kw J US Ib t 4 the- It a Dig!. at. le Lea-