The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-07-18 00:00:00

,TESMA N. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Jinn 17. r. Itatie-Dottle Doty Rill, rite Bowled Roods' Bill, tir Isie a< slam Trade Bill, were read a second time and ism to•assirraw. Mr. Toomey. from the Tax Odlee.preseated an account rellb. Sive to the Izede'option of tbe Land Tax, which was ordered # on the table. • The 'rush lisEnp notice Consolidation Rig. the Malt Dethill _ _ THE made the engine of oppression np to the period4A the Revolution, when the Committee appointed by 'the 1 House of COMITIMIS (in which Committee lard So mers, then Mr. Otters, took a most active and tea .kus part) came to a Resolution, that the power of information ought to be abolished altogether, which Realdfitiout *it unanimously agreed to by the House. wis aware that the informations thee more par . . Relri Bill. : I"' Montle"' Bankrupt Bill, amdl ire - t itularly alluded to were not Inforinatioes Ex-Officio, dia Loan Bill, were read a third time and passed. I • REDEIIDA LES Permanent Inualvent Debtors' 811 l but informations in the name of common infermers. I,etdwas r•Jtl a third time and . pasted ; his Lordship stating that he eThettet,itowever, *air, that this Species of Informa bas little hope of its e a its the other House this amiss g h it did not e rn mow, he intended to bring in the UMW Bill in but I lion had been found iso convenient to the Gorern the wit Swum. I meri t , that the informition Ex-didio had fallen into LOCAL TOKENS. !disuse, and bad become in a great degree obsolete. — Tee Pawl of 1.1 VVRPOOL moved to dieeharxe 11w Order for the Ceendtasent of the Loral Tokens' Bill, and -to Anew it for ' r e g u r- T l ate the Dower of information thus exercised, and present' the grievances that resulted from its Ta rk ia ise 7 ,l *. nr . % UDER DALE trusted he should be able to Phew theietordslilps , when Ibis Bill came robe discussed, that 9 abuse to'jhe people an Act was passed in the third Romeo. rr was More lately than this to create a confusion in the ' or mune year or William and Mary, enacting that ernuttry. In the pastel state of the circulation of the country, 7 the informer should enter into recognizance as a se re pyres, she lone at local tokens, would be to destroy the moll teary, that in may pans of die country was the ante ex- curity to the Defendant for the costs, pro visions had king medium fornalthignerillpaynsents. and he contended that I previously been enacted to prevent the informer from ei t e ur4 i ce , line. t e rk idd i ej we i rdo be m i derai rg w tr il the de pap f t ei w rc iV at u i t ua , a o t rt r e tw i t . prosecuting, or from compounding it. He trust s:outer., awl the ellkts predeced by it. eu h e should not new be told by a Noble and Learn -Ihe * Bill was committed toe Tuesday. l ad Lord, as he was 011 a former occasion, that the I.4TE OVERTURE FROM FRANCE. Act passed soon after the Revolu tion, relative tp the Lord 1101.14 AND wished to know from the information to which he had alluded, was obsolete. — Noble Lord opposite, whether Ministers were in That Noble and Learned Lord could not now say so possession of any (potter information relative to tlfe in justice to himself, that Act being still in opera _late Overture from Franm, than what had been pub- tion, and, constantly, he was bar l ey to say, acted lished in the Foreign Papers ? He was desirous of lupon by the Court of King's Bench. He was aware abstaining from delivering any opinion respecting ithat this recognisance with respect to costs could not the Answer to that Overture, alshoegh he was cer- be applied to ex-et tio Informations without the vio taiuiy not disposed to admit, much less to guarantee, laden of a well-known maxim of the law—a maxim, the existence of King Joseph at the head •of the Go- that whatever opinions might be entertained respect vernment of Spain as a principle of negotiation. He big it, had been long acted upon, and certainly ought should have approved, however, of entering into a not to be hastily violated, namely, that the Crown negotiation upon the principle of rendering Spain in- pays ne costs, The Act, however, to w ll th he had alependeet of France. He, at the same time, with alluded, had left the question respecting ex-officio. respect to the terms of the Answer which had been Inforrhatious where he found it, by the insertion of published, could not but protest against the difficul- words which could not be construed to recognize the ty which appeared to be felt in designating the Em- legality 'of that species of information. lf, there peror of France as Emperor. He wished to know fore, the ex-officio information was, as some eminent whether it was intended to communicate any further lawyers had maintained, actually illegal, it could information upon the subject to Parliament or the derive rio legality from that Act. What was public ? the nature of the ex-officio Information ? it The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that the Letter was a power exercised by the Attoruey-Ge from the Frencit Government, and the Answer of neral of the Crown, at pleasure, of filing in In this Government, which had been published, were formation againit an judiridual, and placing, by his (without tying himself to the critical exactness of single act, that individual its the same situation is if a any particular expression) correct copies. The rea-' Grand Jury of twenty-three men had found a kill of son why no communication had been made to Perlin- indictment against him. It must be at once admitted, ment was, that the Answer of this Government called. that such a power was most liable to abuse, and for explanation on the part of the Government of against its abuse, which might tend grievously to the France, and, therefore, in the expectation of that oppression of the people, it was the duty of the Le explanation, the documents could not properly be gislatortto provide. He had obtained a list of the made 'public. If, however, any motion was made number of Informations Ex-officio, which had been for the production cf these documents,. he should filed in the course of a few years past, a proceeding, stet interpose any obstacle. As to the terms of the it should be obserxed, that, with the exception of Answer of this Government, he could not conceive revenue cases, was confined to libel, and he towl, that there oould he any difference of opinion in that that whilst, front 1800 to 1807,the number filed was House, or in the county that if welted consented fifteen, in the three - irs, from 1808 to 1810, the - to acknowledge Joseph Bonaparte as the King of Spain a .it would have been most ruinous to our dia. racteehnd our cause; as to the other point alluded to by the . Noble Lord, the Answer of this Govern anent had proceeded upon the principle acted upon in all an'ecedent nrgociations with France since the event alluded to happened, in not acknowledging the Ruler of that Country as Emperor, it being a fair and a just principle that such acknowledgments *aght not to be made gratuitously, hut to be tho, objects of a stipulation for a consideration and equi- Talent. The Farl of LAUDERDALE said, he did not mean to express either approbation or disapproba. Con of the Answer of this Government; he merely wl d ,hed to l.now whether any communication had been received from the French Government since the Letter of L'rd Castlereagh, which had beets pub- lished in the Newspapers. The Earl •of LIVERPOOL said, that .subse quent to the Letter of Lord Castlereagh, publ:shed in the Newspapers, uo communication whatever had been received from the Frencu Government. INFORM kTIONS. On the Order of the Day being read for the se cond reading of the first Bill relative to Ex-officio Inform:oi Milli Lind HOLLAND observed, that after what he had said upon this subject on a former occasion, and considering the thinness of the House at the present moment (although he admitted the season of the year to be inauspicious for a full attendance), he should not have been disposed to have said a word now ' upon the Inhject, had not what he formerly stated !wen misunderstood and misrepresented, in qtrirters i,erp he was auaious not to be misundehtood or rni , l..presenteci ; and had not his object also, iu erop..siec these Bills, been greatly misapprehen dot • smite persons amongst the public. Ex-officio Ittorntatiolts and Libel had for some time past been so much identified , that there were some persons In the contitty so ignorant of law as to suppose them inseparably conuected, and even to suppose that his ohjeet was nothing less than to abolish the law of , libel altogether,, and thus expose the Government te every attack that the utmost licence of intaginition could invent, • Whatever might be his OWd specula. tive or paiticular *pinions upon this subject, he was not such an Utopian reformer as to call upon the /louse to adopt a measure embodying those opinions. Ilis object was the regulation of the power of Er. officio Informatiens, in order to guard against the abuse to which that power was liable, to the op pression of the people. The power of Itiformatiou altogether was inconsistent with the spirit of our Constitution, and was condemned at WO by infer ence, by our own laws, which expressly forbid an'y 1 other mode of proceeding in cases affecting life er limb, than the ordinary, safe, and constitutional mode of proceeding, by indictment, to be first found by the majority of a timed Jury, namely, twelve, before the Individuel accused could be pbt upon his trial:— And it was kigbly worthy of remark, that whenever the subject Iry to be oppressed, it was effected by means of an oatensioaof the- power of informatioff. Thus in the reign of henry Vllth, the grievances endured by the people through this means were so greet, that it was. (Mad necessary, in the first year of Henry VI thit, to pass an Act for the express pur pose of regulating this power. Again, in the reign of Elizaboth, and is the reigns of the first Princes of the Nouse of Stuart., this power was resorted to, and was the favOurittengine ef that most oppressive.o.- Ow Star Chisther. This power coo,— - eP years, .. number filed was no less than forty-two, of which, however, more than half had never been prosecuted to trial. He did not meanato impute any other than proper motives to Sir Vicary Gibbs, in no prose cuting these Informations to ,trial, but he must sly, that it was a power of fining and punishing individuals which ought not to exist without regulation. He had several cases before him, but he would not nun individuals, , his object being to abstain from mixing personal considerations with the question; confining himself entirely to the principle. One of the cases was that of an individual, who, in three seceesiive years, had had three successive Informations filed against him on charges of libel, on one of which he was acquitted on trial, and the other two had not been brought to trial. The expences interred by this individual, in consequence of theso Ex-officio Informations, amounted to ‘l7Bl. l 8 s. I Id. Thus it ,of i rgiower, unlimited as it at present was, in the Isi of the Attorney-General. With respect to Ire land he wished to be more cautious in what lie stated, as he was not so well scquainted with the application of thi law; in that country ai in this. He had heard, however, a case, from report, in that Eountry, in which a parson in prison for one libel had had an in formai* Sx.vjlicio filed against him for another li bel (for It was possible, and that was the law of this - . • country, that a per.. might, be convicted. of a false, scAndalous, and malicious libel, of witch libel he had never area one word) and was convicted without having had an opportunity of reading the charge against him. The facts of the case were, as understookthat whilst this person was in prison for a libel, an Information Er-officio was filed against , him by the Attortlei-General for another libel. The Defendant applied for;it copy of the charge, and was referred to the Crown Office, where he was informed that the charge of stamps, &c. would come to 15 or , WI., which he must pay, before they could grant him the copy. He made an affidavit that be was not worth the money ; but he was taken to have pleaded Net Guilty, and upon the trial was found guilty. Upon being brought up for judgment, he stated that he had , not seen the charge against him ; and the Court of `King's Bench, after hearing the case argued, grantedj a new trial; granting it, however, upon the ground of his affidavit, that he was not possessed of the money demanded of him for a copy of the tetarge : so 1 that if he had only been possessed of 3AI. he must have paid 201. of it for a copy of the information.— lle thought this most oppressive to the individual, and he bad an intention of proposing a clause in the ' I Committee on this Bill, to ensure a Defendant in j such a situation a copy . of the ebarge against him. &could not, however, but think the tixes upon law proceedings, 'which swelled the amount of j I these charges, as extremely oppressive, and .most anxiously wished they could be done away. Ills Lord- Iship then adverted to a recent cace in Ireland, and ex pressed hit woudev that such a person as Mr. Fitzpa-1 trick had been selected for an Er-officio information; a person who had so recently received the thanks of a large body of his countrymen, and at a moment too like the present, when the Government professed to be pursuing measures of conciliation. Neither did the nature of the work justify the proceeding. It was nothing more than a statement of those penal sta tutes which affected the Catholic body of that court try. There was another circumstance connected with' that business al;o, and one which he hardly knew how to mention, it was so anomalous, and in some respects so ridiculous : yet, when he considered it as a precedent, and in reference to the evils it might produce, it then assumed a different chrracter. The Attorney-General of Ireland, now in the dignity of , filing Ex-officio Informations, and with all the pomp' and circumstance of glorious law, sent a regular neat- mons to the person against whom he was filing the in -f formation, desiring him to attend at his, the Atter. , 0 f ney-General's, own house. But what might be the consequence of such a proceeeding ? Might not the Attorney-General in such an interview, sift from him all the grounds of his defence, and render that which he had extorted ) an instrument of injustice against him ? Might not such be the case, he would ask ? He did not mean to say it was the cue, but he would ask, whether it was not possible ? Witk regard.to the general subject of Ex-officio Infor mations, his opinion had long been made up. The- Bill, however, which he now intended to introduce, nas d one merely of regulation. It left all the pur poses for which these informations were instituted, untouched. It did not in any way interfere with the speedy prosecution of enormous offences ; but it would have a tendency to counteract that principle by which, at present, the terror of a criminal in formation, was kept hanging over a man's head.— .` .1-0 %. •li. o.• . . - hat principle of de Constitution it se lf : t withstanding thechmour that had br.en raised a , not.gain,t them recently, they were, in fact, si part of the l aw of the land. As to the alleged hardship, he though t them more humane than any other. If the Attorney. General filed an Information upon the aifiduit o f another, and the person accused was innocent t he not indtt him for perjury ? Hut, if a Grand Jury. who would tell hi. 'Fr tha, ment for perjury could be preferred with lily or with equal probability of success luding to the proceeding of the Attorney-Goner' is Ireland, he would only say, that, had it been ease, he would not have so acted not Ir2cau, , h, thought it illegal, but because he would not rim , subjected himsajf to misconitroction acid mise.„, cep. tion. At the same time thele was nothing comp o t. sory in such a citation. It Was, in fact, notIN more than telling the person, I am about to file a criminal information against you; if you chuse to come and shew any cause why it should not be done you may. That seemed to hire to be the amount o f the proceeding, yet, he repeated, he would not ha ve employed such a.course, merely from prudential mo. tires, to escape just such insinuations as had actually been thrown out on the present occasion. Lord ERSKINE agreed with his Noble and Learn. ed Friend in the way in which he had laid down the law upon the present question, but sitting in that House as a Peer of Parliament, as a lawyer, and as a free subject of the realm, he must contend for it, that neither in the letter nor spirit of the law,nor the consti. tution, was there to be found any thingthat, for a mo. ment, iustified the principle that had been implied, of putting the office-4 Attorwey-Geneml on a foot. lug with 'that of a Grand Jury.—[Hear, hear !) The Constitution never meant to put them on a foot. ing, because the liberty of the subject has, not in them the same security.—[Hear, hear n —The one comprehended in it the great principle of trial by hii Peers, the other was the servant of the Crown, and removable at the pleasure of the Crown. The corn. parison, therefore, was against the latter.—[Hear! hear!]—The Jadges not in general acting on the powers given by the 46th of the King, was on the part of the Judges, no doubt, the exercise of a most laudable discretion; but then did ft follow that such discretion should be left to all Judges ? Their not acting implied, that they thought they had been en. trusted with more power by that Act than ought to have been deiolved upon them. But there was one point peculiarly called foi their Lordships' mature consideration—it was the difference between and breaches of the peace--in all cases of breaol of the pence there was- w _mere matter of fact in he decided upon, but in cases if alleged libel, how much matter was there that involved a various compication of conflicting considerations which might, and hare had, in sundry instances, produced doubts and dif. ferences hi the breasts of the soundest law authori. ties ?-41kar, hear rl—Why, than, in cask - , of In. - "7 formations Es-ojficio, should the Judges :lave i• power in such cases to hold to bail, where theltrong probability was in favour of the presumptioa of tha law of the land, that-held all parties 'ono.. cent• down to the period' of their conviction ? He, however, should require of his' Noble Friend (Lord Holland) to make one or two exceptions to• this general rule, good as the general rule it. self undonbtedly was ,• and he believed that it w•as the intention of his Noble Friend to make an ex. 1 ception to this rule in cases where the parties accrsed excited any strong grounds of suspicion of their in. tention to abscond from the process. To argue from the living characters of those who had filled the office of Attorney-General, against the abuse of the au thority of that officer, wes,lo Ms opinion, not very fair reasoning to advance before men acting in a legis. 'Ave capacity.—[llear, hear!}—When the, powers _ appeared, teat the Attorney-General, without the The first c lause enacted, that no information should of the Coroner were limited try - the 4th and sth of int-rvention of a Grand Jury, without the interven- ' be filed by (cis Majesty's Attorney-General. within ; William and Mary, was it then attempted to be ar tion of any regular or, constitutional mode of pro- the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, gued that theexcellent and unexceptionable character seeding, had the power oT amercing an individual to unless such information should be so feed, or exhi- iof the Coroner of that day ought to have had aky the amount of nearly 3001. in the course of three j bited within a given time, the precise number of i weight in continuing an excessive power in the hands years. Was not this a power that required some re- months to be specified in a future state of the Hill, of that officer? Certainly not—they legislate for re gulation to guard against the abuse of it? Ile had after the misdemeanouror offen c e done or committed. terity, with provident referenee to all possible con. }formerly quoted Mr. Justice Blackstone upon this That was the purport o( the first clause; and the se- I tingencies—and therefore, with all his well-founded subject, and he must again quote that Learned Judge, • coed clause enacted that if any information filed or and habitual reverence for the sanctity of those who who, in stating the necessity for the existence of tics exhibited ereogicio, be not proceeded upon, and the had, during his time, presided in tee Courts of Law power of Ex-officio Informations, observed, that it Defendant brought to trial within so many months,' —with all his personal respect and esteem for those was necessary to meet adequately enormous misdee next after the day of such information, all further of them now living—with all his reverence for the me enamours, such as obstructing or affrighting the cove- proceedings upon the same information' shall, after teary of suck of them as were now dead—sti'l he reign in the exercise of his functions, in which not a the expiration of that time, cease and determine, ex. i would say, as a Peer of Parliament—as a British PA moment's delay could be suffered in bringing the of- copt such trial shall upon cause shown, have been jest—never make a Judge AftatTßAßT—for the sake fender to justice. Now those who supported this postponed by any rule or order of the Court of ofjustice itself do not—for they might rely apon iL, power of Ex-o f ficio Informations, must either deny King's Bola. Such were the contents of his Bill, that where a Judge might do What he pleased, puh':c the authority of Mr. Justice Blackstone, or they.must and he did not think it necessary to otter upon any suspicion would not be stow ill sapping that cenfi- Sccuse the Attorney-General of negligence, in not anticipation of objections that might be made to it. , dance in the sanctity of the judLial character wsich bringing to trial the informations he had alluded to,or We understood his Lordship to say, towards the . gave such force and efficacy to the operation of the. they must admit that the offences for which flies, in- close of his speech, that it was not his intention to laws themselves.—[Neu, hear', bear !]—As to the , formatious Ex..officio were filed, were not error- press his other Bill (that for the repeal of part of i,great age of Informations Ex-office , he did not deny mous misdemeanours, and, therefore, that the infor. the Indictment Act) at this late period of the Session: `lt, but if time was to hue been made, in all caseeof mations were improperly filed.. He could not con- he should therefore postpone it till the next. • I projected improvement, a preliminarynnd insuperable template the existence of such a power in the hands Lord ELLENBORGUGa began by lamenting.. obstacle, what, he would ask, tifiet.wpyld have been of an. Officer of the Crown, without feeling that it that the Noble 'Lord, whose ,e,reet amitosis's and tileneilettltutlen of England at this day ?—[llear, was pregnant widethe most dangeronsconaequeaces. , industry he adattiret s l, had Uot addressed himself to ; hew /3—Another great objection to the power of the It MightsetielelsmosCleteteetevinlltience over the pub- those sources of information where he would have 1 Attorney-General, exerted in this war, was the vests lk press. &the present moment the Attorney-Ge- derived morecertain knowledge than he unfortunate- tious harassing that might be occasioned to the ac. neral had the power, after filinvan information Ex- ly seemed to poises* open .the subject. He had cured in case any Attorney-General thought proper officio, of keeping it hanging over the head of the ; stated the proceeding by Ex-o ffi cio Information was 'to defer from time to lime bringing him to trial, and Defendant, without any limit of lime, a n d th us not a part of the regular lasi of the land; and he as the law now stood, this was quite at the discretion possessed the unlimited power of keepi ng indieklnits, ;'-csnoted Mi. Justice Blackstone, to prove that it was ! of the Attorney-General. This was a, power he did at his pleasure, iw a continual state of terror and employed only for enormous 'offences. He would, not wish to see lodged in the hands of one man, be alarm. From the„general diffusion of knowledge, !beg leave to tell • the Noble Lord, however, that that man who he may, his best and dearest friend, or and the general cariosity to know the state of 'pub. 1 Judge Blackstone wrote• very ignorantly upon the i the best friend to the liberties of the country. The lie affairs—a curiosity * , perhaps, sharpened by the I question of Xi -officio Informations. lie did net I present Bill would obviate this and other objections, large sum which Ike people had to pay—ther e were say that with any intention to detract from the great and it should therefore here his support. - at the present mow' uka g r e a t number of periodical merits which his Commentaries certainly possessed. Lord STANPOPE deticribed the Nobleand Learn publications. It was, therefore, of great importance It was-a most leant work; and had done more ed Lord (Ellenborough) as most anxious to cry to consider what,efilict might be prodeeed upon the . good to this country, by diffusing a sort of taste for ;all Attorneys-General, and to cry -down the Graft puhlic press, by this power vested in the heads of , the study of law, th an an y o th er p ro duction.' Still, Juries of the country. He should net enquire wh' the Attorney-GentstaL Ity not prosecutingen infer. however, he was to speak .to troth, and he would i had been the Attorneys-General wt. Ws time, by oration, there might . be itacit understanding, under) say, relt in his belief, the Consioaltariet of Black-' this he knew, that the infansiaet 'stodge Jefferie which the iistlitklon aglittst syhom it had been filed . : alone were not tile prixlacOmrof & learned man sit- had once been an Attorney-General, and so might be moat'lM . c. ,.peit,ineuenced in his opinions, ting down to the, sateect, fully epeepared--but that I had the 'notorious Judge Scroggs ; aid, recollect particularly If ~übst isence degended conduct Of a 'peeßnlical publication ; upon' the 1 the , subject, in the progress of writing, TIM& the ' ing that, he could not approve of such Rowel Or the abused man learned -- • the detractor of Black.; bell - held by the_ Attorney-General. The No pewee, have' rout mmt „might , . 'the eir of d __J. Ile was ; .got t4Ot . _ -- -- i 4l • of such a ;:i -- --. ' e ming. Mae% uhe wished to 4, . considered rather -Ms i ble end Learned Lord had said UM' Mr. Jusllce from the A ,of the- public prear- persons ot.sgmternl engolist, fet: he had made the study •of ,- Blackstone had written ignorantly .ow this subject: conscience and 'illiegrityl who wind& *at hicrilica, the law, a pleasing Educe to him when he first shad be (Lord S.) made such an assertion, in what a their opinions to temporary interest. It might 'be . begait Ms profeislikabl career. • The Noble and rage would not the Noble and Learned Lord have said that the case Imbed allseled te of three successive . Learned Lied then went into a variety of legal de• risen to take him to task for suck ,a libel on the I infosmatione tiled agelnsbehe same indOeduld ,tide tails, citin a g .' ti from the . highest 1 Bomb 1 • The Noble and Learned Lard had said — * mart, against tkisarsuutewt,hut 4 thpateedaitetmakeugainst, law atidOrkies f id i .. to slaw-that the primp that- Blackstone had commenced hh beht in 1v0,.0111101 ,.0111101 tti . De the getterei ..pdticilliC 4. - deiger, whkli grew oat Om at Faith* ^ wab unsnap is the' IllaCe bit that he had become learaed before he I . . , • • • - • - i I i 1 11 ,# • I I I I I 1 4 ; 7 ; , ~' , • • • ___. ie " r - red d {aid il for n 1 ha , On a A su I . jourt Mir, I met !cllig r. TI the b to op' lorld, A Et The' ilpea Oral i all' in de 11/2 Arr. 1 , RIC Per Per Per Pei eon Fre soil by