The Statesman. — London, England, 1813-03-23 00:00:00

^ •••• • -. or . . • 'l4. s • - . -- been read fo them, and after they had read the docu. inmate themselves, and which. hail ultimately been signed by the Commissioners. Of these documents he spoke—of no others ; and th,:re existed proof that he had not concurred ht any thing like injustice, or illegality. Ti.ey had not been parties to any did. closure; ho hoped they never should he parties to any such breach • of confidence as had disgraced the times in which they lived—a disclosure which, he thought, threateped effects of ,the most calamitous tendency to the nation's dearest interests. Had such charges affected him onlyas a private indivi dial, he should have treated them with scorn and indignation ; in such a way only should he have dealt with theehirge, which imputed to him the basest crime that, in his estimation,could be imputed to any man—of paeticipating •in crime, of concur. ring in iujustiee, of. conniving at illegality. • But, situated. as he had been, and feeling for the honour of hii country, end fot the characters of its Coun cillors as he did, it was bounden duty to pirsue another Course ; yet here ; Again was he met with the difficulty of the situation in which 'he was placed. The charges existed but in rumour--by ru mour only had they been wounded—By this rumour he had been -charged,' for -to rumour it most be re duced; of having concurred in an fillegal and unjust course of examination ; but the charge refuted itself, by stating, that such course was persevered in, in coiljuiletion with Noble Lords, to mention whom would be sufficient. to show its faliehond. They were further charged of having subitifuted, for a so lemn authenticated minute, a fabricated—a forged minute, different in its form, in its pueport, and lead ing to conclusions of a different nature from such solemn authenticated document. —The state ment which bad been made of this matter was this : —that there existed two ripen, each relating to the same transaction ; that the one, and the true one, was in the form of question and answer, and that the other *simply detailed the evidence, which latter paper was false and surreptitious, and had been forged by the Commissioners, and substituted by them in the Report which they had made to their Sore velem It might have so happened after the lapse of seven years that be could have had nothing to say in rebuttal of such charge, but merely to declare his in nocence—to declare that no such forged paper had et er existed—that no such base proceeding had ever entered the minds of any one of the Commissioners. But he was placed in no such situation, he and his Noble Friends were not reduced to a reliance on their j mere declaration of their innocence. The evidence of their innocence was fall and complete. The ori ginal minute still existed in the hand-writing of the i Lord Chief Justice of England—in the hand-writ leg of Lord Ellenborough himself. It paw existed precisely in the form in which it had been sent to the 1 King; The Minute was written by Lord Ellenho. rough in the presence of the Commissioners and of the witness f and signed by them. The Minute whils existed was the only !Innate that had been taken on the Occasion alluded to. It existed not in question and answer, but precisely in the form in which a report of that proceeding hail been sent to, the King. The existing Minute was the one which had been signed by the witness, but not till the. Xi nute had been read to her, aid not before she, had read it herself ; and no one who might here• after read that Minute, could fail to observe the alteration and interlineation of words which took piece after the deposition had been write' ten, that it might be precisely what she -wished.— Dere then was the evidence of their intickenoe fail and eomplete. What remained to' be said was also fill! and complete in itself, and nothing could be added to the above statement. That ou which he was about to ohserce required no annotations. Sir Samuel RoinilV, except on one occasion, penned the depositions ; but he had not received any instruc tions as to the manner in which he should take down the evidence as the witnesses gave it. Indeed, if he (Lord G.) had entertained any doubt as to the pro per manner of taking down the evidence, he should have been more inclined to apply to Sir S. Romilly for instruction, than to think of instructing him how to discharge the duty which the Commissioners had called on him to perform. In thiabsence of Sir S. Romilly, on one occasion, to whom could they have so well applied as the Lord Chief Justice of Eng land, my Lord FAlenborough—a Noble and Learned Lord, who, from the peculiarity of the situation which he so honourably filled, was the most likely to discharge thet•duty ably, honourably, and cor rectly—a Noble Lord, on whose accuracy of taking minutes of evidence depended so materially the lives and property of all the subjects in the country, and whose conduct as a Judge was unimpeached.— To him the Commissioners deputed the duty of taking down minutes of the evidence, and he was sure their Lordships would not believe, that. the I.nrd Chief Justice of England was one who was likely to barter with his conscieaoe, and teAraffic with his character (whatever might have beinge in. clinations of the other Commissioners) by being this. Ile should adhere to the Noble Friends-of meellig violating either in feria of Privy Councillor ; and, the apparent ditScultfr of such , rely on their Lordships' jilptioe for of diet innocenci to which. he felt' flaring held the sittiation wh under his Majesty, he felt blvisself responsible than any of his No , therefore thought it rlett to view of strengthening what and of acquitting himself in ships of all imputation of ha\ of having concurred in, any , (lure in the transaction which But it was impossible for him what bad been said by the Ni V guilty of the baseness of .minuting doWn evidence diffeAntly from what had been given. He would once more state, that so far as he was concerned Intl* charge which had been preferred, he confidently met it with the most decisive contradiction • and that the base fact imputed to him and his Noble Friends cculd never have existed, was proved by the exist ence of the Minute itself. More than this her trusted it was not required of him to say.—[ Hear, hear!]-11e must confess that he felt himself humbled by being called on to say so much; it was a sort of humiliation that be had not expected ever to be required to submit to. He also lamented that he had been compelled to be instrumental in such Parliamentary irregularity as their Lordships were then witnessing, but tte would not.contieue the irre gular course longer . than was absolutely necessary ; for to pursue such iriegular course must tend to over= throw the independe4ce of Parliament, by destroy ing the regularity, and consequently the dignity and order of its proceedings. • lie sincerely begged par. don for having been necessitated to tresspasti so much on their Lords p h r l o p:aatience, on the usual regu larity of their ins; but the extraordinary circumstances its - which he and his Noble Friends trusted, would plead a sufficient hear!) .4CEIL presumed to trespass on .tbeir patience with the greatest reluctance, as ou all o.casions, but particularly oa t .~-- .. .. ... . J a. ceded him. than to express all they had stated, and his agreement , _ the i. ,sis Is CIO, a Liverpool. .. _Avis that he trod bens nnesi te logs which they had expressed. They ba d ma de out for Lve rpo o l. move d t im, a maw wr it for whit.,, kr which a complete, - clear, and unanswerable case of the E is lioce era he t halals) beak AIWA, het foe Wilda be bad milled . . , falsehood and baseness of the charges which had been Mr. PREN 4 DBRO AST prosightell 'a Petition from certain levelled against the Commissioners ; and with them Merchants, and oiliest la Lewdest; pmehthat India her obi lis nth he could only express that he felt ashamed, itinaWat- a ht matinee to hold the privileges w they has Mo ed, and degraded, by being called on to defend him- • • , • WEYMOUTH. Mr. aldermen ATKINS moved for leave tobring in a SRI to self against such charges by trespassing on their • Lordships' time, and by violating that Parliamentary l a 7 l 4 Avkl e e ic at h l the g Re ?tb r es th w e h p kb rpo h te t . " of k m " ul i niag at Vi vit ita4 es . ' regularity which ali of them most naturally feel so Mr. C. WYNN r.,7 , 4 1 :a g n he ha d not yet a P deadrA *piston desirous of supporting. The charge was of the most on the subject, saw some objections oo the restriction of the right ootfheelrepon, except t o ur , d more wide!' there, than In any serious nature—no lest than in having been concern. ed in the foulest conspiracy that ever entered the - Leave was civet. Tbe o llill was brought in, read a int time, 1 head of man--:end ttgil they would have been un hy ono ordered to be nada sowed time en Monday main *Mb Lot on ly ofi : 2111 Majesty's confidence, but ortta ~ . . ( t. borinred. The Inalveat Debterellill was read I snood time, int 4' lag seats in that House, could they have Aver har- mined for the Sd of May. boured such an intention is had been imputed to ' The ^Out of the General laelmare SW was ordered to Ms; them. 'Foe their own honour, and for the character considered' on the 3d of iltilrilsCUßES. of that House he had felt himself called on to ail. Mr. BOMBS postponed the consideratino of the Report of dress their Lordships in refutation of the chaigel 4be o S n in tL eure trfe " r i° ole li thlr t d " that in d g ay or t i t l ie li t i e t lO !iial Petit which had been made, but it was impossible for liim Larceny Bill, Sir C, MORDAUNT objected to Mr.it. °Y )(ZAP. to find words strong enough to express how diell7 - RICK stated his willingoets to accede to some amendthietnrs And the third reading was pastpeeed till the Id of Mar... ~ . he felt the falsehood of those base charges. In rent , tation of those charges, he would state, on the honour' • PRINCESS OF WALES. . • Hear, hear! --And he would further remark, that of a Peer and on the faith of a Gentleman, that al! Mr. WHITBREAD rose, and observed, , that-ht that his Noble Friend bad said was strictly true .— ' had read part of. a paper to the House . the olher-.1 1 night, on the subject of the examination into die [) there were any legal course known to the Coast'. conduct of her Royal Highnesi the Princess of WaSesi if . tution by which those charges might be tried, he he had then stated, that, if he should find that any should most fervently wish . for such opportunity of , imposition had been.practised upon him, he would defending himself.—[ hear, hear !1 i readily and publicly acknowledge it in his place. The Earl of MOIRA observed, that he too - had ,He had just learned, from a short report, that a in some degree been -made the object of unfair' ca. high Authority in - another place, had, in a very 1 bunny; not on the occasion to which his Noble ' temperate way, declared that paper to be a fabri..! Frieliflq had so pointedly adverted; but upon one in cation from beginning to end, —an entire falsehood, i some degree connected with the subject matter of it..: —and had imputed weakness to him for having used' He fui! ) . agreed, and he felt with them, as to the point `it. lie (Mr. Whitbread) had discovered no addi-'1 in wl.ich they were implicated, and he felt how hu.. tional reasons for supposing that the questions stated 1 wiliatiug must be the feelings of that person, re- in th., paper in question were not put, except in diked to defend himself against such a'charge. In this disclaimer of them, and this declaration of the such a situation, in some degree, was he himself ; falsehood of the statement, made in a quarter to placed, in having been charged with investigating, ' which it would not be quite regular for him more and covertly endeavouring to obtain evidence against Particularly to allude. He felt, therefore, under an individual ; anti with engaging in the dirty pus. these circumstances, that it would be but justice pose of examining in that view, the - servants of an in him to apprise the witness (Mrs. Lisle), of the 'individual. But he trusted that no soul who knew . matter ; and if she also disclaimed it, then the aught of his conduct or character, would for a mo• disavowal would be complete ; and he should ment harbour such k sus xicion '6l . hint ; and he could be very ready to acknowledge that he had been I solemnly assure their L ordships, on the faith and imposed upon. But until she kad seen these honour of a Gentleman, that he did not, upon any questions and answers, which were stated to .be occasion whatever, or at any time, in the least seek impositions upon him, and until lia had received i for any information against any one individual. [Hear, her answer respecting them, he must suspend hear !]—Far from that, not only did he never do the declaration of his belief in the imposture. Ai so, but he never had the smallest intimation con. for the document, whatever it might be, he had nt4. ; veyed to him for such a purpose. But at "en a cer- . ther bought it nor nought it. Ile had not received ! tails lihrstrions Individual was in question, he deem.. it from the Princess of Wales, nor from any person ed and felt it his duty, as one of the Sworn Coen- , in an official situation, or connected with politics, or I cillors of that Illustrious Person, and was even public life. lie should believe that an imposition i bound by his oath, to enter upon an examination as had been practised, when he should find that all the , far as he considered it might be consistent with the : five persons, the four Lords Commissioners, and line of his duty: A certain Noble Lord had made '. Mrs.. Lisle, concurred in stating the particulars to be the most unexpected and unwelcome declarations, I false. In suspending, at present, an • acknowledg. and stated that' the circumstances which he Oho ; ment of imposition, an opportunity imfortunately Noble Lord) then mentioned, were not only talked ; would be soon afforded him, by the intended motion of in the House, but in the whole neighbourhood ; : on Wednesday next, for stating what he knew, and an intimation of that kind, he felt was not to be . what were his views of the subjett. Should that passed over, and he took the liberty, as he possi.. motion be withdrawn, he should take another op. bly might have misunderstood the Noble Lord who i portunity of explaining himself. made the application, to suggest the propriety of first I Lord CASTLEREAGH' observed, that such examining those witnesses; and what was the re- great inconveniences arose from incorrect and irre suit ? It appeared from them (so we understood his . gular statements, that it was highly desirable, that Lordship) that the affair was scarcely talked of in : any Gentleman e should ascertain, on such sis the House, and not at all in the neighbourhood.— sions, that he was making use of an authentitsated Such a procedure was made a ground for the scan. document. dalous imputation of secret practices to procure WI. I Mr. WHITBREAD remarked; that thericirtii. deuce. A vie w of the circumstances alleged, render.. difference between an authenticated and an eittheitic ed it not improper, that two medical Gentlemen i document. should be referred to ; and he thought that upon the Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that en impres- 1 whole it would be more delicate and proper, that ; sion had been made en the public mind, that Owl these persons should meet a Magistrate at his house, i Commissioners did present a report, with deposi. ! than in such a state of things to undergo an exami- !dons, which, if that paper were authentic, were nation at the Office in Marlborough-street ; and it not in strict 'conformity to the nature of the svi... was even stated, that the very meaner which he dis- deuce. received by them. ~ -. r- . _, - _. . , played at theitignaiinttion. mu adepee4 Swintluen ,- -Mr. WHITBREAD said , iiiegnestion was, whe., the witnesses : this his Lordship described to have ther the answer was, or was not given to a corrected been the very reverse of what was insinuated. If it question. What he had Stated was, that the depot were sea ; I their Lordships would be satisfied, it was aition would have been different, if taken correctly intended as a severe check, sad thu real intention from the evidence, as stated in the paper of which he was, to convey to the person at the moment his idea, had read some parts. that the truth was not spoken. While he was on Mr. TIERNEY remarked, that in such cases of this topic, he would, as perhaps he had not many investigation, it was not the practice to put down the days to remain in the country, beg leave to notice questions. No Minutes of questions to-Mrs. Lisle, another most unfounded insinuation against him. It in the course of her evidence, - were taken ; but her was stated In 'a publication , that the Earl of Moira, ansiVers were written down, and were then all reed as the writer expressed, had authorised the insertion over to her: after which she signed the certain anonymous paragraphs, for a certain object He was sorry to be obliged to differ from his Min. I ,as seemed to be insinuated. So far-from such a ca. Friend; but he must ask him, what doubt he could I. lumny having the teat foundation in truth, he could have upon •his mind on the subject' of the &brim . . solemnly assure the House he had never but ones: in don, unless he meant to go the length of sup the course of his life, authorised any thing hi the posing, that the four Lords Commissioners had any shape of an anonymous paragraph, and that it was view of entrapping Mrs. Lisle.? After the full once on an occasion so entirely personal with respect assertion of the Commissioners, that the evidence toltis own family, that he would not trouble their of Mrs.. Lisle was 'taken as correctly, in point of Lordabips with a particular statement of it. He had form, as the nature of the proceedings admitted of„ in fact, alWays the utmost althorrence to every sort he was surprised to find his Hon. Friend think . that of anonymous statement ; bat, with regard to such there was even a possible accuracy in the paper he paragraphs, as would tend to calumniate or hurt the had produced the other night. A Gentleman, he bed . feelings of any individual, he solemnly !declared be- sail, had given it to Mm, one on whosie honour and fore Almighty God, In the presence of that House, veracity he'relied : but even that was hardly a sof& and of the country, that no consideration upon earth dent inducement for the strong observations he had would induce him to be concerned in their publics. made. But, then, there was the strong Declaration . thin—[Hew, hear!]—and . those who were capable of the Commissioners 1 In what a situation must any of such conduct, he regarded as.equally weak man be, in such a trust, If liable to such corrections. and wicked, and deserving to be excluded from' The honour and character of the' Lord High Chan. that society which . they Contaminated by their pre.. ' calor, the Lord Chief Justice of, the King's Bench; . lance 1 • - of . the Secretarpof State; of the First Lord of' the . . . 't eerie placed, he 4 , . Earl SP E E H N e rIo: Lordships' patient indeed ) kr did ou • s . THE STATESMAN: ••••••••••-- aeons., 4E6.4: r r r 7 .4. T _t _....... : g r . I '‘ . • • • . the deterailispaisi his . ... Tbe.lllol of IMRPOOL Th en meted, that the 1 i the charge tatunte I Ben Ai *OW - adjourn, which' proceeding, on the t substance ihnia)(at f queiWolf beir(pot, immediately took place (at seven ] bolster he might 'feel • o ' clock) da ti-etorrow. t • 'ltch a m ode, Ode, ?+pshould ' . ,' .#i , , I its for the eetibllaltineut •- • • lgopsE OF COMMONS.. .. i • • • . 4.'s , hi felt Mint sistitlade — Tard C. st ryiNttlY_Akresented the Report of the c aidlidttei ' n which he bad done ea Me . issammen width declared the Sitting mention .4 ilastif to b e m i re eu t c u st , del v electalwrit.iodw tuns sot Mooing. Oa • VklltliMlS.' 1 new.for,Ryo, vacated by Mr. Wellman, I i Noble Friends; -and he ' w ho sow Mom* fortmothee Once. - Vali' idaMtbing with the i , A r!tillill Wirptileitiott by :Mr E. cfrATC/IBULto ii-oli" - r 4 t 'had nivel°, b een S aid, suing the ilte4:4 , :t I. th'imweb;r4 tazread. : for C 62,- I 1 the eiet• of their Lord- The Report of the Cosibittie sin theoubject a i m . 1, having been guilty of, or Llr ot i:i t t c•4 4 l l S .. itsitifeig. was mated ter, sad 1 i illegal or unjust prose - In a ansusltta — olTitio i . k oty, " li i t. WHARTON inovett : f l ' ch had been alluded to.— Loom. • !be payment "ilrowsetaullag Exchequer Bills. -- I 1 i m further to ititsengthen 1 V:4146 4 1 m .• . 1 aft 1 Noble Lords wiloliad pre- s wim b etwees u r . cwalou today , si s r i tir t r el e:: - . i his entire concurrence in Mr. C. .see ,, Mr. J. :P. Brant , &c. it was rrrel to a; 1 agreement 1.6 all tit! fe e l: _ lei'vm.'e mg artrros ud ,a4.a s ery Ing ttient 11 . had We'ren meg i ..,_ ..._. --", -"i r ~'~. 1: k A P `reoasory,, Were all WWI In question, merely upo n the after-recollections of Mrs. Lisle. He be:levet! Mn. L. to be a most respecteble woman; he ha:l seen her, and he-was acquainted with her conitec. flans : but nothing should induce him to take the mightafter-recollection of any per son aga i nst. what was 'sworn to, and signed bef ore a C ourt of Justice.—. ,All this, on the part of hi s lion. Friend, was nothing judgments hi s l i on. r i g ie h n t a he more than a mistake. The b es t of ntemwere liabl e on, o t and hbe emisled. e thought Their as w e :l tre up th e matter. Mr, WHITBREAD was sorry to Incur the cen. soil Ontlirest Hon. Friend ; hut he bad acted on selfiCiesitiy, mature isflt,tion, 'He should, th ey ,.. fore, sendthe pak,to Mrs. Lisle, ain'tl ask of her, whether shi believed or acknowledged that the pies. tions were 'put?---whether she would assert, that they were put to her in the course of her examination if lie had been misled in supposibq that the question, might have been put down as well as the answers, it was.through seeing that mode practised- in various . I - other cases. He referred, with paiii to one case where it was done; he meant the proceedings on the tenth Report, in which every question was put down. If Mrs. Lisle should say, they were asked, then he should reqiest her to state when she- recorded-them. In that Case be should not think himself so. wrong as others did. He had had no notice hitherto taken of what he. commented upon, nor any denial sent to him ; nor had he heard of any public notice of the matter till just then. Till he Isadmade the enquiries rhellblisflWie mentioned, lie ahead them himself rthilligisbie, in acknowledging` as au imposition, nvhat lad not yet been proved to be erroneous and Mr, BRAG( BATHURST said, that the prin. dpie of biking down questions, alluded to by the Membe4 would affect half the judicial pro.. Lending's of the . country.* He (Mr.'W.) must know, as a Country Magistrate, that answers were taken down without the questioOl. It was the same with summing up of 'the Judges, who took down only the substanceof the evidence. Ought this paper to be sent to Mk. Usle fo'r her recoll4tions, after the Noble Lordn disclaimed it ?—Nobody up to this time, let it be observed, had authenticated the sup posed dovitnctit. The lion. Member had not ascer tained -whether it 'same from the only person who 'could give it dny shadow of authenticity. It could not be autheutic : at the best, it was but the recol lection Of 't witness brought -up to contradict what had been regnhrly recorded. He` had strong oh*. tions to her recollections concerning what had 'been read to her, 4nd sig ned by her own hand. Such things - • _ ____L......,,-Arceinstaitees: • Mr. NvFirrtittEmi said , heittittl,at/staiited front doingany thing/ill• he sttoultkirno•d - that the tittper was diselaimed. lie .now heerci• tint it Was a false fabrication. • For his own pert he .did not yet feti himself reedy to say this. .E.Af INDIA CHARTER. The House haring, resolved itself into a Commit tee, to-crinside; (lit various Petitions on this 41T bj Lord CASTLEREAGH rose, and be gal b y ••tet ing, thaeafter the time kaki arrived when the P: k: ter of the East India Company was on the point 0 . : expiring, ltsliatd now fallen to the lot of Perlimarot to take intObeir consideration, the providing • for i the future date of government in that extensivetm ! pire whicis had hitherto been committed to their ad mioistration. In approaching a subject of such magnitude, importance, and, he would also add, of such perplexity, he must observe the extreme sin : kularity of the situation in which Parliament was now placed. They had to provide for the future i government of an Empire which, in extent and population, far excelled the parent State. He was sure "that the House' would deeply feel that it was a great moral trust which the British Empire had now to discharge, itt laying *down a system Of government most• conducive to the happiness and prosperity of so great a portion of the human race as our Asiatic empire contained. It contained a population three-fold more numerous than that of the parent State. It neither was his opinion, nor that of those with wboni he acted, that the Resolutions which he intended to propose, would go iu any de gree to shake, .that great fabric of the Government in India which had so long . administered the affairs of ,thakcosititry, in a way not less advantageous to the empire at large, than to•the individuals eosi:m,. lag the East India Company. He would certainly .pause, before he would think of shaking or pulling ,down a system .which had tompletely'aniwired all the great purposes of Government in India ; but he should beg 'mete say; that the propositions which he intended to submit to the Committee, were not subversive of the general policy by which India had been hitherto governed,' but that they only tended to tuakethat policymore applicable tpoo;extstiug cir eeistaneesvoenhe Mies in which we live. He was Satisfied that ho Class Weald be more benefited by his propositions than the East India Company them. *elves, as a commercial body. - lie was not actuated by a blind respect for the East India Company, in not wishing to dissblietheni. He was • convinced, , that their exertion's hall not only raised this mighty L empire, but that their manner of adminlitering it was eminently sucttessful for the-will-gOverning of their eetendedterritortes. They had adopted principles of Government so wise and practical, that he believ ed that the - history of the world could chew no in • Ounce of so great' an 'empire governed by so few hands. The population was, as he believed, not less than fifty millions,, and yet the number of elill servants of the Company did not exceed ono thousand six hundred. • Asia had certainly never. seen, and he believed that few European' nations could boast a milder syinno of government, or one which better Seethed the order, tranquillity, and happiness of the people committed to their charge. In no country were the merits of the Governors more conspicuous, or * did fewer flagrant evils•exist. The servants of the COmpany were entitled to the highest praise.' From the liberality of their establish- - , tents, and the care taken in the education of their servants, they had, in their youth, acqUired the ha bits of oflidial life. He believed there were no records of. official efficiency equal to those which were ex hibited by the servants of the Company 'in India ; and he must add, in justice to the Co'mpany and. to his own feelings, their servants at home. His official deities, when le held the office which was now held by his Noble- Friend (Lord Buckinghamshire), had 7