The Statesman. — London, England, 1813-06-12 00:00:00

c~ ;i ) Sir HENRY PARNELL observed, that thre was a radical error it► the system of appointment to offices in Ireland, the officers for the collection of the revenue being nominated by the Lord Lieutenant instead of being selected by the Treasury Board, under whom these officers were more immediately to net, which was the practice in this country. But i this was not the only difference between the system of the two countries, the officers in ail the depart ►uents under Government being appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, instead of being selected by the Boards under which they were respectively to act ; and who were, of course, most,competent to make a' proper. choice. No view td patronage should, he thought, permit the continuance of such a deviation from the better practice of England. Sir JOHN NEWPORT, in answer to the chal lenge of the Irish Secretary (Peete), mentioned t h e, rase of Beauchamp Hill, which case was on the Jour. nals of the House. This Mr. 11111 was, it appeared, appointed to a higher office la the revenue, after he had himself confessed that be bad been in the habit of receiving bribes from those from whom it was his duty to collect the revenue ; nay, he was appointed to the office of Inspector to check illicit distillation, after having confessedly received beam fross 'dill' L MMENIOMW& Telma;• and the expense of Its collection was diml- i tillers to stippress wished a good deal since 1811, though no penurious I the appointment means had been resorted to for that purpose. lie ' law. teen stated a few reasons for not haling adopted in I Mr. W. Ft liehind the plans of finance that have been proposed of the present . in this country. Ile was anxious to have the finan-ithe appointment isal departments of both countries united, and also , Baronet; nor for an assimilation of the revenues of both. But he I merit would ! should be averse to such consolidation, were the I with the Gel VOW I ibutions required from both to be made proper- i due to the Right tinnate. This consolidation besides, would not be ter) who made se t ;roductive as some Gentlemen expected. The; Right Honor estimate for Ireland this year was 16,571,6361. It the appoint was iii p ssikle that Are could contribute so much for I namely, that wavy years to come, were the supplies to be, raised; confessed by e idea the year. The additional duties for England' sal, among revere this year amounted to 1,500,0001. and that for Ire- I elude all the land was about one half this sum, which was very I not be able disproportionate; so much so, indeed, that she was siness.---P laugh, I not able to bear it.. It was from n conviction that. Gentleman assured Ireland was not able to bear it, that he declined the I not offering this • new plan of finance; and also from a hope that it Further, the would nurture her future financial resources. The Foster) stet( revenues in Ireland had been more productive last fees arose me year than the estimates, whilst the expellee of their to revenue oft collection had been stationary. Ile concluded by Upon this poil moving, that certain sums be granted for various uses was proposed —upon wi.ich, Revenue Act, • Mr. BA I(l.:e'i said, that he disapproved of some upon any or of the reanaiks, as well as of 'the system adopted by , lulled to was the Right lion. Gentleman.. It was nothing but the ; animadversice system, of his predecessors. The system of taxes I Gentleman adopted in Ireland since the Union he disapproved r [ Gentiemati, of, and wished the English system of taxes and ( Ireland . iti 1 finance to be extended to Ireland. • Ile also thought . ' unseasonable at a ~ that the printed accounts of the amount of thelabout to contribute no sixteen . *lrish taxes for the last three years were very unsatis- ! the common stock of the year, and to pay in addi factory. • 'llona' taxes 610,0001. which amounted to one-halej Mr. W. POLE' contended, that 'the taxes were , of the addition to which rich and happy &goad more productive last year than the estimates, and ! was subjected. When it was recollected; that ittiY viudicated the statements of the Irish revenue. 'lei Pitt, in• 1785, rated the utmost etfort of Englend at' disapproved of his Honourable Friend's (Bankes) , only 900 1 0001. additional taxation, and when it was remarks, And said, that as Ireland was a new coun. • corisidere4 that the revenue of Ireland, within the try, she could not be expected to go on as. England , last yilre hid been increased one-sixth, notwith- WAS able to do.—lreland could not raise the taxes; standing its sacrifice of one source of revenue t the Within the year. If they endeavoured to make her necessity of England, in stopping distillation rom do so, they would make her burst like the ox in the grain, he thought the resources of Ireland, an the fable, and render her wholly useless. He wis!wed to • manner in which its revenue was collected, we, AOC see the treasuries and debts of both countries cousoli- , liable to the animadversions which . the Hou ,lead'. dated. . ; heard from the non. Gentleman and others. . • • Sir J. NEWPORT agreed with most of the re- ; Mr. CROK ER spoke in favour of the c ter marks of the last Speaker, and disapproved of those ' and appointment of Beauchamp 11111. i of the Hon. Geut. (Mr. Banker). He disapproved ; The several Resolutions being agreed to, the Rouse of the intreduction of the Property Tax into Ire. resumed, and on the motion, that the Report of the land. Ile thought that the Irish Exchequer Depart- Committee should he brought up to-morrow, meat might to be wholly separated from the politics I Mr. PONSON BY expressed his surprise at such of the Castle, and that this was the only plan to ansextraordinary motion. First, because the gene. make it fully productive. The quantum of contri- Frailty of the Members could have no notion that bution settled for Ireland at the Union was dispro. such a Report would be brought up so very soon portionate to her means, and founded on very fella- after the Resolutions were adopted ; and next, be.. cious data. The quantum of contribution was of a cause it was proposed to bring it up on a day when progressive nature, whilst they kept the productive ,it was. quite unusual for the (louse to sit. Such a powers of the country, by means of trade and other proceeding was, be believed, without precedent, and facilities, wholly stationary. The collection of the when the amount of the Loan was considered, sae resources was, in many instances, badly managed.: settling by far any sum ever before raised -in Eng- Many had incurred penalties for neglect of the I land, at an interest, as he calculated, of about 5 - 1 6 manor duties in Ireland s but they had not been pro- per cent. when it was considered that the sums bore secuted ; among these was one of the Judges of the • rowed oithin•the year, in various ways, amounted 13(1.1,U/ear, hear !)—When it was required' of , to 50 millions, and that the whole of our general ex. one of the Stamp Commissioners to attend to his • pence would reach to from 115 to MO millions, he duty,, he resigned his office, because he could not re- appealed to the Right Hon. Gentleman whether it twin it as a sinecure. The taxes ought to be levied ! would be fit or decent to proceed with the preci fairly in Ireland, and those who were able would pita.ncy proposed upon such an important subject. readily pay the*. , . . I The CHANCELLOR of' the EXCHEQUER Mr. W. POLE_ confessed that there were great - thought that sufficient opportunity would offer for abuses in the Siamp.office, but that be had laboured ' any discussion which the Right Honourable Gentle bard to remedy them by the Acts of last Session.' man might think proper to bring forward upon this Time Right lion. Gent. vindicated the appointments , subject. lie would not, however, press the reading made by the Irish Goverument while he had the ho. of the whole of the Resolutions to-morrow ; but he sour to be connected with it, and especially in the' hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman would have Ste mp- oflice, asserting that that Government, being no objection to the reading of the Resolutions respect-I ever anxious to enforce the collection of the revenue, ; ing the Loan to-morrow (if he did not disapprove of was not influenced in its selection of proper officers ; the . contract), allowing the, other Resolutions to for that purpose, by any considerations of party or ; stand over until Monday. political connection. I Mr. PONSONBY would not object to the read- Sir J. NEWPORT repeated his as s e r tion, that the I ing of the Resolutions mentioned by the Right lion. Legacy Tax was not collected, and that penalties I Gentleman, if such a proceeding were necessary to incurred by Judges of the Land and the Counsel to ; the public service. He would not, as he had before the Comrnissiouers of the Revenue, who ought to I said, oppose the grant of any Supplies which Minis be cognizant of the law, were not enforced, adding, `tens might think proper to require; but there was a that those penalties were incurred ht the years 1809, • difference between obstructing Supplies and calling 10, and I I. I the attention of the House to the amount of these Mr. PEELE defied the Right n on . Ba r t, to pro- I Supplies, the manner in which they were raised,and duce one instance in which any defaulter whatever in 1 the purposes to which they were applied. Ample the Revenue had been screened from punishment by opportunity for the consideration of such an exten. the Irish Government upon the delinquency of such I sive subject he thought peculiarly necessary: Ifwas, defaulter being brought under its consideration. ! Indeed, .highly desirable to examine and explain the With regard to the department of Stamps, that financial state of the country, of which he believed question was, he understood, to be brought forward the generality of the public were completely ignorant. by the Right lion. Bart. as a separate motion, and 1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER as to the other departments of the re v enue, while I observed, that the usual period for discussing the adequate measuresovere adopted rigorously toenforce I financial state of the country was upon the consi the regulations mentioned by the Right lion. Gent. 1 deration of the Resolutions generally proposed' (W;Pole), with a view to the c o ll e cti on o f the wee-! towards the close of the Sessions. The Right Hat- ' nue in future, directions had been very recently I Gentleman would, however, have many other op., given by the; Kish Government to seleet the Sett ; portunifies for inch discusslonl:ll he - thought ptcppr ci.aspicuous among the defaulters heretofore, beer- I to 'avail himself of them, in the progress of the Bilk der that the most exemplary punishment should be; to be founded on the Resolutions agreed to by the ingicted. I CoMmittee • but he trusted to the candour of the Right Hon. Gentleman that he would. not obstruct the ratification of the Resolutions respecting a loan, the terms of which were not at all objected :o when first stated, and any obstruction to which might be productive of much public inconvenience. After some further observations from Mr. Pon senby,. ltlr. Vansittart, and the Speaker, it was arranged that the Resolutions respecting the Loan should be read to-morrow, and that the consi deration of the other. Resolutions shoeld be post poned. . • FAST INDIA RESOLUTIONS. Lord CASTLEREAGH meved that the East In dia Resolutions be taken into farther cog:widen • tion. Sir J. NEWPORT thought, that at this late pe rind of the Session, considering the magnitude of the question, and that it affected the happiness of 00 millions of people, it ought to be postponed for three months. The contest on this question as, yet ! bad been merely between the outports .and the Rut India Company ; 'the one contending fore free trade, the other for a strict monopoly. The Ministers'act- I ed the part of mediator', and had formed a motley coat of resolutions that pleased neither party. Dose •who were.te emote the poweri of the itallopoly i • r • I non oa' part of the Company, why did he not attend its his place, and call for witnesses o!1 this subject, inatead of arraigning a speech of an' lion. Friend of his (Mr. Grant, jun.) in fss our of the xyitem of the Com pany? The Hots. Gessileman t instead of ,this, had thought proper to go bark to period antecedent to 1793, when it wasrudmitted oft all sides that peat stint flagrant abuses existed ; and to pass over the, intermerliwe period o'flwenty years' experience of re different system.—Winwl. were all the tongues of India since silent ?—Cssuld none of these find such able advocates in that House as the Honourable Gen. 'demos, if these abuses contused to exise? He .saw massy objections, besides the transfer of patronage, to the depriving the Company of the Goverpntent of India. . .4. the. question into a proper shape between the contending i interests i and he certainly meant to press the House 1 to come to a decision on the question; during the present Session. - Mr.W HITBREAD insisted that the most important part of this mighty subject had been overlooked or ; neglected, and while. the commercial quarrel wasl fomented between the Company and the out-ports, the interest of 50 millions of people in the East were . considered as unworthy the attention of the Legisla. Lure; he took shame to himself for his comparative; ignorance upon India subjects, • but more shame be. longed to ibe House that it always treated them with unmerited indifference. He complained . that the Company had not produced the satisfactory evidence they so, loudly boasted, and that the question had been already so much delayed, that a due considera tion daring the present Session was impossible. He then entered into the history of the various discus sions upon this subject, to show that Government had been culpably dilatory in bringing it forward, and remarked in severe terms upon the inconsistency of Lord Castlereagh, who, before so vehement an advocate in favour of extending the influence of the Crown 9 was now so squeamish as to stickle for points of little importance connected with it. The truth was, that the Ministerial tools into which the Company would be converted would soon rot, and 4be controul of India, its patronage, and its wealth, would quietly fall into the hands of Ministers. — The only mode of deciding was to allow of no dis graceful compromise, the question ought to be— Company, or no Company I—Monopoly, or no Mo nopoly ! If it ought to be destroyed, destroy it If it it ought to be maintained, maintain it ! For his part, if a wish would' destroy out territorial pos.l sessions in India, he would-wish them annihilated, or 1 at least wrested from Great Britain, The Honour& able Member disputed the justice of the eulogium passed upon the Company by Mr. Grant, junior, on a former night, and detailed to the House the ; various acts and proceedings from 1773 to 1795, to.: show that it had always been deemed incompetent to i the conduct of the Government of India, and after : all these steps to show that the Company was worth I nothing,' they were now to be allowed a precarious existence to continue that Government, when thirty I years ago they had been cashiered of all power, and I declared inefficient. He quoted Lord Castlereagh'S i opinions when President of the Board of Controul , showing that he had fifteen years since declared that the Company ought not and could not exist longef, i and yet now insisted that it ought to be supported. ! He passed a high encomium upon the character and conduct of Marquis Cornwallit, and censured, in terms equally severe, the acts of Marquis Wellesley 1 in India, insisting that he had destroyed much hap. ! piness, and contending that we must " not ley the flattering unction to our souls," that the people of India were happier or more prosperous under the Government of Great Britain than under the audio- rity of their own native Princes. With respect to the evidence produced on the part of the East India Company, the witnesses, however respectable, were bred, and had risen to wealth and fame under the monopoly of the Company. These, witnesses, too, were so much at variance with themselves, that be.' fore he ventured to pronounce on the question, he shouhrlike to have other evidence to confront with limn, TiseGentleasessof else OW-pet te bed - not dealt fairly with the House. Expedition was every thing with them. For his part, he was no East India Pro. i prietor, nor in any wise connected with the Out-ports, but as a Member of Parliament, he wanted in- I jermation. A Noble Lord in another House (Lord ' Grenville) had given to the world a speech upon this question, With the sentiments of which he com- i pletely agreed. They were every day hearing of the] degeneracy of the times in which we live ; but it would be degenerate, indeed, even for these our 1 days, if we were not able at once to take to the Crown what was the right of the Crown—to take it boldly, end not circuitously—and open the trade to 'the whole of the empire. They had been told of tho dangerous consequences whith might ensue in India —the difficulty of preventing smuggling—and the danger of allowing any but the servants of the East India Company to go to Canton, while the American_ subjects were, it is well known, already there. He was amazed that the. Member for Liverpool should have given upsthe China trade so easily. This was the most important branch of the whole, and the one where there was the least danger to be appre hended from smuggling. But the Noble Lord (Ces tlereagh) had said that the Company must be kept alive, and it was to be kept Aliso, .that he might be the Governor of them. The China trade was the !Meth by which the Contpany wso to be kept alive. The NW* • Lord- bid awards said, •or mow' to - . Mr. WII I TBR D explained. Mr. ROBERT THORNTON said, though' he disapproved of the Resolutions, lie could not agree to the putting off the discussion on them for three months. This he conceived would be hazardous to the interests of the East India Company, and the uncertainty which it would occasion in their affairs, would much more than balance any benefit which might be supposed to arise from delay. Lord ARCHIBALD . HAMILTON said the House would not discharge their duty to their Con stituents nor to the people of India, if they did not take the proper time for becoming acquainted with this qaestion. A number of witnesses had beets brought forward, who were acknowledged to he fre quently at variance with each other. There were do consents on the table, showing not only the grossest mismanagement of India, but the utter want of pro tection to the people of that country, The admi inistration of justice in - India was, in many points, entitled to praise ,• but it was in evidence from the very Judges in India themselves, that the system was erroneous, and not adapted to give prisoners a fair trial. They were called on by the Advocates of the Company to name abuses in the Government of the Company of late years. Was not Madras almost lost, by what, in his opinion, was misconduct ou the part of Sir George *Barlow ? Mr. TIERNEY said, that he if consulted his own feelings on the 'subject, he should vote against the Amendment of his Rt. Hon. Friend, as he wished that this important subject should be disposed' of as'soon as it possibly cold ; but, on the other hand, the more be attended the debates the more he was conviecell that prolonged discussion would be of the utmost ad' vantage to the Indian empire. Great inconvenien. ces would (he was aware) arise from adjourning the subject at that time,, but greater still from a(I. journing it, as the Noble Lard would do, after the Resolutions had been agreed to.—[No! from Lord Castlereagh.]--,The Noble Lord said, that when the Bill was brought in it would be the best time for pro. posing an adjournment ; . but in his (NI. T.'s) opinion, it was the very worst ; for, if the question was to be postponed, it would be better that it should be donee before the House was shackled by any declaration or its opinions. There would be no regard to decency finishing the question altogether this Session.-- From the numerous notices on the three first Rests. lutions,_ it was impossible that they could be dis ' posed of before next Wednesday or Thursday; then they were to be taken into consideration in the Lords, and could not be. recejved thence after time given for contiderittien in thind Hesse before the middle of the week after next.--.—e Then came the Bill under very different circum stances from any one on this subject, which I had at any previous time come S under the consider. tion of the House. In othertcases there had alwai s been some compromise between the Government stud the Company; but now they were as far apart as I they could be, anti every debate showed the Company a still stronger light, the jeopardy they were in Bill being in the nature, and even the terms of .an agreement, must be submitted to the other party —the court of Proprietors ; and as they would pre •bable object to it, a ballot would take place, so that it could nut come for discussion before th e latter part of July. Would Gentlemen, he would ask, wish to stay in town through August? If yes, all was well. But he was much afraid, that they would be left (as they were during the last Session, when voting one hundred and thirteen. millions) with fire-and -twenty Gentlemen. If the Resolotiont were agreed to, and the Bill postponed, what loconveniences would ad.* from this determination going out to India—ts awls tence of death to the Company. nith to reprieve for Inonths. He' should Iry very willing himself to sit to the middle of August, if there appeared a pOssibility of finishing the business this Session ; but as there was not, lie should', with unfeigned regret, vote for the: proposition of his Right /lon. Friend (Sit S. Newport). If the country were persuaded tha4 the „„. the regulatit (W. • Pole), nue in tutu given by the conspicuous der that the inßicted. Sir HEN • a radical e Mikes in Ls V the revenue instead of under w hon act, which this was no • of the two ;Dents und , Lord Lieut ' . Boards und and who w I,' proper. cite thought, p from the 1w Sir JOll lenge of th case of Boa ttals of the appointed I ~ had himself of receivin duty to col to the offie after havin, . .. - . _ . .. • , . - , . • I. .. • , • . . . . - ,• • 'FITE ST4 ~t a: , ,' . . vietheyretevielth,. ~ 4 ‘..;:t.v.1,4... .. :c::: , .; . 0. . ..., . .4": ift:grilletf satiodisomit./114141".... la isanda the i; coin fa iw pa igaleti n ertisla y ‘ w illeg a he t t h i ti e i l l loietMnale:grf [.L..alouilhw]he:hhera:i • N.....t.....:._: - s K i N.:lr:f . 7p e re nt ss w t a h s e ma col d fe e c i t n ion th o e f ~ , .0.4, . . . c . t 5..._11 sewer.. to sa y ....u ;, - •. ...1, .. urie br e Z- be hl - BWhit 1 . . * lialitall ag to bt ri:: tthltealargPeriedivid:adit. b , t which ha v t ' ii ha t ef h : sCii'l:rediunt laataitetTlkiaariliallYite-t°;:vell:N—stailietittngo-et4 rI'fZGERALD observed, that en paw qihr tf, ft.' '`" -t f- --.e ' 4 Ate:7ll, , *Mob eltffieient to keep the Company alive, then came tie J Al'' , ra 'llit thia : inletnltroishenGtioornettrlnmvenotewaatifiresteau4lge—. i ft7 iint e lltem b w e stio piiiii or need he add„ that soclilOt. ~ . levo ~_,,,, 4.. 4 . ' ii ii tiTllV ' 4 i ' heto ellatth.blow of the Com got •an not be. made byuny'on• ABW d•st ;!., d , ~,,• , 1* .., 21. ii•oka - - A , ... Lord would come down P te Y the Ivernment of Ireland. It . itl wai, ,t reg 9 ....... . the that as the dividend could no longer be paid rte Honourable CA _eaten • Fes. , ..i.0., .. • um. i. Armatesksdntstrawitiet Illitt t i na ce ir: Company was 'at an end. Theo,- when er thing 6 • itirt ~ • y ,ade dud appointment , to reset*. .., . , . It TIM lot iend eld be involved in convulsion and confusion, tie Durable 'Gentleman's observation, Nfiteli polyr Slit •10.4 W • fair competition to pour Its whale would necessaril:, , fall, unguarded and aupre: tment quoted was before Inerttlieedb..lig on L India ns . One gr e at reason f or d o . tected,•i n t o the power of the Crosen; the \cons!• it, he (Mr. Foster) found the practieeb"forelettbikietnities was, that eireetfisttisceit.shight queue of - which - would b e , th e d es t ruct i on of tie r . Mr. Hill, be'general, It not so unlit Ulla 'Pt .tIVIKPIWIII..BI- .04110•0 yetr. Whkit,..would British Constitution.—lle was degiroat, therefore, revenue officers, that if he were to el- . *eke aii key material alteration in a matter which that the Heise shouhl be better infoimed,' and hate hose so. receiving illegal fees, be shoed ''_ w _as of ka most u4ot fisp o kf ooco to th e c oon t r y.— the proper-time for deliberation. With r e spect to t h e to fi nd any officers acquainted with busi- He - 114 rcfeiri, move that the further consUer- very moderate 13:11 resolution, on the subject of the laugh, and Ihar!]—The Right Hon. talon of resolatlons be•poitOned to this day enlightening of India, it had Hs entire app ro bati o a. assured those who cheered, that he trash three n u t —The question was, were 'they Christians or weed ; this as his argument,[liear, heain--- Lord CASTLERBAGII thought It would be they no t ? Why th en wou ld. they halt betwee n t wo he Right Honourable Gentleman (• r. wrung to defer th e g e e iti on t o t h e ne ar se s sio nv opinions? On this subject also he wibhed to hare • ted, that the acceptance of such illegal. even from the Right Hone Baronet's arguments.— more time for preparation. out of the very inadequate salary allowed The InvestiOlon having (One so far, to poilpone it Mr. ti'f EPIIEN said, if the Ifon. Gentl eman h a d officers, which inadequacy be removed.— wouldbe h. Y Injurious to the several contending , shown him that delay was necessa r y t o th e 'i nteres t s point he (Mr. Fitzgerald) added, th a t it interests, as a rt e r y thi ng t h a t had passed a l rea d y lof the GO million s of rpt ; but eopl ein he ln h d a ia d , n h o e t sh u o r e g l od d hate oie let led to introduce a clause into the new would go:Oothing. He thought the further gpta - ! had his cordial s upport ,ct, imposing a permanent disqualification - sideration 4 4he Resolutiope ought to be entered . argument for delay founded on Ray abuse in (ho officer so accepting fees, as the officer a 1.., epos, and it Was only on the Bill to be introduced, ! Government of the people of India. The 13th lie- ns stated to have done. Adverting to the that a fait tisteiston could be had upon, the subject.— i solution had also his tribute :of applause; but he ion of Mr. Bankes, the Right Honeurabitt . The great atgumentof the Right Hon. Bercinet.wis, !did not applautrit as a comprpmise, or halting be- ' observed that inadequate contributier etf be piaduce that the assertion of the Hon. that in thsr.a, eoerse of Slid Mr. year evidence might ftween twa opinions, but as a steering between op., tas to that pit Continuation of the mons/per] itisite. extremes. The I I ool: Giviitietitan lard' itaid 4 the ' th , e, expenber of. the empire, wt f rather i Would, bstnecessary.- • Thliiras an :argument whi rl' Petitioners had not dealt fairly *int the llouse,l for de at a period winse,the Irish nation Nis led to diseossions i : without any end or limitation .— t they brought fnreard no proof: -If by this the Hon. mtribute no less than sixteen millions to llt wits his intention to bring in a hill, to put the 1 Gentleman meant a proof of abuses committed on the.