The Statesman. — London, England, 1822-07-06 00:00:00

i i • pent measure was to make it impossible that the /nark t should again be brought down on a sadden by an un limitted importation. He believed that fixing the price at 70s. would now give as m tch protection as 80s. did in theirear 1815. A degree of distress much greater than what was felt in England had been experienced ou the Continent, and that too in countries where taxation was scarcely known; and that would go to prove that taxation In this country was not the cause of the dis tress. However iaadequatn some of their Lordships might think the protection afforded by this Bill, he still thought it probable that itneightbe attended with a good effect, especially in case 'had harvest should take place; and it was, at all events, as good a Bill as could be de vised, ander all the circumstances. The Earl of CARNARVON thought it desirable to ascertain what was the minimum of protection whirb would suffice, to sustain the agricultural inter-.t, as he was convinced that the country could not flourish long of the ;wires of agricultural produce were forced much 4have those obtained in other markets of Europe. Such a measure would prove filial to oar commerce and ma nufacturer, wonld destroy the home market, and occa sion incalculable distress. Before they proceeded to legislate on this subject for future generations, they ought to he well informed of the causes of the present distress, and he thought they could never have less data •to net upon than they had at present. He was of opinion ..that much of the existing distress grew out of the alter ation which lied taken place in the currency of the country. This subject, however, he did not mean to press on the house at that moment. He could not per suade himself that any Noble Lord could think that iii).. or even 70s. the quarter could continue permanently the priee of wheat in this country. A higher price than 11t.. could not be reckoned upon. They had no data on which they could legislate prospectively, and therefore he put it their Lordships whether it would not be wise to avoid coming to any decision at present; upon these grounds he should tote for the amendment. Lord REDESDALE did not conceive this was the ti m e for legislating on the present subject; Sod he was stare that this hill would give rise to a spiritnigninhling highly injurious to the int of the eostimOigand pro deice dangemns fluctuations in the pricesoreltilitnodities. One cause of the great distress of the agriculturists at this time was, that three buthels of corn, when brought to the market now, would not enable the farmer to obtain more commodities than one bushel did 100 years ago; and there was no period in the history of the country, when earn was at so low a price as at this time. It would be impossible that other commodities should not experience a deprecitation similar to that now felt in aged taltnral produce ; when that was done, a relief wrothd follow as a matter of coarse, anal the bill could have no effect in producing such a state of Wogs. He objected to this hill, because it would be putting the trade in corn, when carried on by merchants, upon a stock lobbing system; and give rise to Balls anal Bears in the corn market. just as theyesisted in Change alley. He did not think that the importation of foreign corn could be injurious ; but on the contrary, must be advantageous to our farmer, if no corn but what was of the best quality were allowed to be imported ; for then there might be a mixture of corn that world be service able to the country. He thought their Lordships ought to postpone the consideration of this measure; and then they would have the means of acquiring information be fore they brought forward a new measure. If prices did not rise to 80s. before next Session, it would be impos sible for this bill to bare any effect. As to the corn laid op in warehouses, it kept a quantity of capital locked up from the public ; and be thought if corn were per.- trotted to be sold on the payment of a moderate duty, a considerable advantage might accrue to the public. Lord ELLENBOROLTIiII did not conceive it possible to legislate permanently on the subject of corn ; every, measure of this kind nowt he temporary, and depend no existing circumstances. The present • Bill he thonglit would have this good effect, that it would prevent the price of corn from rising too high. The measure cer tainly could net produce any relief to the agrlcuitur' but it worth! prevent mischief; and on that accoantAel thought it ought to pass. It would enable Parlientordi to form suck a judgment respecting thepeoduce and At= rency of the country, as would guide them hereafte introducing a more perfect system than that which now existed. 1 he Earl of DARNLEY could not conceive any thing more abortive and inefficient than the present measure ; and circumstances might arise under which it would be impossible to put this law in force without a danger of insurrection. He thought a great part of the agricul tural distress arose from high rents and taxes; and this Bill would give no relief; of this he could give no better proof than the fact that tbe very persona for whose relief it was intended were opposbd to it. Their Lordships in this m rrrrr e were doing no good, but they might do mach mischief; and, ie.-common sense, it would be much better to pause 'iota the next Session of Parlia ment. z , , The Earl of MORLEY said there was a great owe■ tainty at this moment as to the quantity of corn in the country ; and he thought that great advantage might arise from passing this Bill, in case a fluctuation in prices should take place before the next Session of Par liament. Their Lordships then divided on the question for going into the Committee— t!ontents,37—Non-Contents, 19—Majority, 18. The house then went into a Committee. The Earl of DARLINGTON said, he considered this a most useless and improper measure ; and be would op pose it in every stage. The report was then received, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Monday next, when the Lords were ordered to be summoned. Adjourned to Monday. SUPPLY. THE Mr. D. BROIVNE explained. H. bad only MO int to say that there were plenty of provisions in Ireland, but the poor had not the means of purchasing them. He had not said there was no distress. Sir J. NEWPORT said a few words, which we did sot distinctly bear. Mr. VILLIERS deprecated the idei that the distress of Ireland bed been at all exaggerated. Lord BINNINO moved that the petition from the Subscribers to the Scotch National Monument be re ferred to Ott Committee of Supply. Mr..lllllllE objected to the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the course proposed be the Noble Lord would be the most convenient for taking the Petition into considera tion. _ _ . Sir R. WILSON opposed the motion. Sir R. WILSON wished the Honourable Baronet to state the reason why the inhabitants of Highgate, if they wanted a Chapel, did not proceed to build one somewhere else. Sir J. ORAHAM did not pretend to he acquainted with the secrets and the motives of the parties. The answer, however, seemed obvious; namely, that they considered themselves to have a right to the existing Chapel.. Mr. Alderman HEYGATE said, that without refer ence to the personalties of any of the parties. the Hons. , . in his opinion, ought not to interfere wills peopetty willed by Sir Roger Cholmeley, to conveet it to any other purpose than that he contemplated. Sir M. CHOLM ELEY made a few observations in fa vour of the Bill. Mr. BROUGHAM said that hiejudgment has neither been influenced by one party or the ether. His opinion was first formed opus the Report of the Commissioners for enquiring into the state of Charitable Institutions. With regard to the system upon which Private Bills were carried through both Houses of Parliament and obtained the Royal Assent, if ikwere exposed and laid open it wonld make those Houses themselves shudder at the in justice which was practised upon property, and fill the country with disgust. There was a practice of canvass ing in Committees, carried to such an extent, that Geo- Gowen were induced to do there upon questiont involv ing the most extensive rights of property. what they would not do in a jury box in a ease of five pounds value. Unless Gentlemen entered Parliament, as he had done, with a determination of having nothing to do with pri vate Bills unless they were is reality of real public im portance, they would be sure to find themselves draw. into these proceediags. He should certainly take ali opportunity of bringing the subject forward, and calling the attention of the Home towards it. He did lot mean to charge this upor any particular aide of the House, it was common to both. He opposed the Bill before the House, because he considered they bad no power to ap ply the property of Sir Roger Cholmeley contrary to the direction contained in his Will. He had plainly di rected its application to the maintenance of a school; and chapel-building and sebool-beepiog were distinct things. If the inhabitants of Highgate wanted a chapel, he should be quite ready to grant them a Bill, author ising the usual mode of levying the money for building one. Mr. WETHERELL supported the Bill, upon the ground that the chapel was origiaally intended for the use of the hamlet, and not to be confined to the master and scholars of the school. Mr, N. CALVERT expressed himself. as we under stood, adverse to the Bill. Mr. WETHERELL observed that from the beginning this was a parochial chapel, and marriage rites were per formed there. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL 'managed himself against the Bill, as the ground that Peakianiegt weaned., lie proper place to decide upon it, widlictie question was ow pendi ng in the Court of Chancery. Mr. H. SUMNER was at first inaudible. but we after wards miderstood him to defend his conduct in Commit ees on private Bills, while he admitted there was a deal in the system which d rd censure.— After some observations on the Bill, he hoped the Honourable Member who introduced it would consent to its withdrawal. Mr. BYNO replied, and deft ..oled the principles upon which he introduced the Bill. After which Mr. WHITBREAD said that be could not vote for the Bill pending a snit in Chancery, and hoped his Hon. Friend would withdraw it. The gallery was then cleared for a division, and the numbers were— For the Bill, 69—Against it, 62—Majority in favour of the Bill, 7. On our re-admission into the gallery, we found Mr. BROUGHAM on his legs, speaking against the general principle of the Bill, which, After a few words from Mr. CaLcsarr and Mr. H. Sumsait, was ordered to be read a second time. N iTIONAL MARITIIES RIGHTS. Sir J. MACKINTOSH was deeiroes of putting two questions to the Noble Marquess whom he saw in his place, relating to matters of the highest national im portance. It was reported that some time ago the Em peror of all the Ruins. bad issued a Ukase restricting the navigation of the sea between the uestb-west coast of America, and the north-eastern coast of Ada. He wished to know whether the Government bad received any official communication upon the subject. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, than copy of the document to which the Hon. Member alluded to, had been officially communicated to this G went by the Rnssian Ambassador. Shortly after receiving it a note bad been put in by the Government, disclaiming the principles upon which the document was (cllided. It was both resting upon the justice of tile case, and also upon our maritime principlm that the Governoteot bad stated that it toad sot secede to thismimmare e-A(Hear, hear.)—At the same time it invited friendly explaaatioo, hoping that the two powers would preserve their rela tions of amity, and come to an amicable adjustment of the question. Sir J. MACKINTOSH stated the other we upon which be was anxious to receive information from the Noble Marquess. A British ship had lady Been cap ture) and ceodemned io a Spanish port for trading from Buenos Ayres, under the old colonial, commercial, and fiscal laws of Spain. He wished to know whether his Majesty's Government had received any official commu nication of the condemnation of such a ship. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY had an recollec tion of any such a case. If the Hon. Member would state the name of the vessel he would make the necessary enquiry. Dr. LUSHINGTON said the name of the ship was the Lord Uollingwood. He would send the Noble Lord a copy of the confiscation. The Marquess ,f LONDONDERRY said he would he glad to receive the paper, and the conversation dropped. Mr. W. SMITH said, that there had been a decision had in the Court of Exchequer, on Saturday last, upon the question of the process of Extents in Atd, which it was desirable should be before the House. He therefore rose to move that the paper be printed. Mr. VERNAL seeing. among the Orders of the Day, motion for a Committee on the Distress in Ireland, wished to know what was the precise object, as the sub ject was one that recently come before t h e house, when sum of money was voted for the employment of the poor In that country ? Mr. OOULBURN said, that the object of the present motion was to afford immediate relief to those who now loitered under the pressure of extreme distress. He , , .. , ... 1 f. ~ r. i , . i 1 i . . 1 , , 1p i ',.. i i i I; , , N ... HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Hrpnty Usher of the Black Rod summoned the House to attend the House of Peers, to hear the Royal A.sent given tiy tutunO.sion to I public and pri •ate Bills. (for which .srr our Lomb , ' report.) Mr. Xi:l.-ratan WOOD presented a petition from the Parisbes of Horosey and Fincbley, against the Highgate •Eliareb 11,11. Mr. BROUGHAM said that he should oppose the Mill before the House. and be entreated the Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Byng) not to press it at so early a period of the evening. He considered the Bill was more of a public than • private na'nret be had the all ongest objections to divert from their original intention of pro moting education, the Nulls required to be appropriated to the building of this Chapel. Mr. BYNH said that lie was determined to more the second reading of the Bill, as the supporters of it were willing to let it he decide) by the sense of the House. Mr. CALVERT presented • petition from the inha bitants of Kentish 'Town against the same Bill. 1110110ATI CHAPCL DILL. Mr. BYNG moved the Order of the Day fur the se coed reading of the Highgate Chapel Bill. Mr. HUME was determtned to oppose it, and weald move that it be read that day three months. Mr. Alderman WOOD took the same view of the Bill, and supported the amendment. Sir J. GRAHAM recommended that the Bill should be allowed to go to a Committee. He complained that a great deal of scurrility (which he despised) was thrown out against him out of doors. It was said he was the Solicitor to the Bill. He denied that he was so, or that he ever received • shilling of professional emolument Puce be had the honour of holding a seat in the MUM . - had realise pleasure in stating that the measure fot giving employment to the Irish poor was attended with the very best effects. All the iecomiss he had received on the sublect were more satisfactory than genid have been anticipated, and be hoped that the exertions of Government, aided by the liberal subscriptions which were now going on, would soon carry the people of Ire land. thrnugh all their difficulties. Mr. D. BROWNE expressed his satisfaction at the =ensures taken by 0 meat for the relief of Ireland. He'could not but remark that provisions were remark ably cheap at the present moment in Ireland, and he was therefore inclined to think that the distress of that country hail been exaggerated. Mr.l7. FiTztigliAbD was much surprised at the ob servation of his Right Hon. Friend. The circumstance alluded to was an aegravation of the misery of I reland, In the very county, represented by his Rt. Hon. Friend, the accounts of the distress were enough to make the heart sicken. It was impossible for any to read the state ments daily coining in and sitbenticated, without being convinced of the lamentable extent of the distress in Ireland. Mr. RENNET said he objected to the principle of the motion altogether. If the Gentlemen who subscribed le the Petition wished a handsome monument crested, ivy were rich enough to pay for it themselves. He Would not agree to the taking of a shilling of the public sheney for such a purpose, and be should give the mo tion every possible resistance. Mr. H GURNEY opposed the motion. Sir R. WILSON wished to know whether any esti mate of the expense had yet been made oat. Lord BINNING replied in the negative. Mr. HUME said, be should oppose the motion, which Lord BINNING said he should withdraw for the present. On the motion that the SPSAYSII should leave the Chair, Mr. WESTERN rose, and said the subject he was about to bring under the con.ideration of the house was use of greater importance than the going into a Com mittee of Supply. The lion. Member was proceeding (as we understood) to speak respecting the state of the currency, when The Marress of LONDONDERRY interposed, and after requesting the Hon. Member to accept his apology for the interruption, begged to appeal to his own feel- Inge whether he would introduce the house tout wide a field of discurion as was necessarily connected with the resolution which he (the Marquess) presumed the Hon. Member intended to submit to the bootie. The lion. Member must be perfectly aware that there was not an individual in the house who could be prepared (without notice) to enter into thr subject ; and that it would in fact be altogether a surprise upon the house. Mr. WESTERN said that it was perfectly competent for any Member to bring forward a motion without no tice ; though it was usual, for the purpose of convent. ence and arrangement, to precede motions of importance by notice. The motion he intended to submit to Ike house bad been under notice for a fortnight before Wed nesday last. On that day there was no house; and lie had therefore conceived himself justified In ting to the established practice of the house. At the same time, be had no wish to interrupt the public business ; and if the house would give him an order day for his proposed motion, be would not insist on the priority of which he might now avail himself. An irregular conversation followed between the Hon. Member, the Noble Marquess, and several Members, as to the day which could be most cobveniently named, when Tuesday next was ultimately fixed. The house then resolved itself into a Committee. The house having then resolved itself into a Commit. tee of Supply, Mr. ARBUTHNOT sail that bobs he world pro. pose the resolution of Supply for the Army Extreordl- • narks, he would make a•fmr preliminary observations.. In consequence of what bed happened in the house last • Session, be bad undertaken to make the accounts of the Extraordinaries of the Army as clear and intelligible as possible. The sum of 1,541,000:. bad been drawn for by the Commissariat abroad in the last year. But though that sum was drawn for, the whole was not ex pended, and the Commissariat was obliged to account for the difference. Thus was a balance of 115,000. in favour of the present year. Last year the &nisi voted 1,000,0001. for the Army Extraordinaries. He had to propose only 700',000/. for the current year. By a late arrangement with the East India Company, there was a large saving to the public. He would not then go into any farther preliminary observations, bat was ready to give explanation which any Hon. Gentleman required. The question was then put by the Chairman of the Committee, that a sum not exceeding 700,0001. be grant ed to his Majesty to pay the Army Extraordinaries of the year 1822, with the exception of the force in Ireland. Mr. HUME admitted that the estimate came before the Committee in a very improsed state ; but the cir cumstances it disclosed showed, in his opinion, that further improvement was still practicable. The pre sent vote ought to be for that which could not come under any particular head of expense. It was princi pally for the difference between the revenue and the, expenditure of the colonies, sea therefore the particu- lars of the revenue ought to be given. The House In I ibis respect had not its usual constitutional controul over the money which it voted. The money was ex pended under the controul of the Council; but this was not the proper mode of expending it; he believed it was one which the House, when it voted the money, never intended to sanction. At Malta and the Cape, for instance, enormous establishments were kept up; and these were paid for by bills drawn In same some- Ilan of 100,0001. each, without any account (at least without any which CIAO before the House) of the items composing that sum. He should propose the entire abolition of one part of this enormous expense —he meant the Colonial Agency. The Right Hon. Gentleman who held the office of Commissioner of Woods and Forests, held an office of 1,2001. a-year, as Agent for Ceylon. The duties of these Colonial Agents, as they appeared by the Returns on the table, were very ; one of them was to provide and send out to the Colony such articles as were necessary for the public service. This might be easily performed by the Com missariat. These Colonial Agencies were useless offices; he was determined to oppose their continuance, as it was a perfect mockery to keep up offices, the duties of which might be performed by other departments. They led to multiplicity of accounts, and to the accumulation of large balances in the bands of public officers, which was inconvenient and dangerous to the public service. But, independent of this, the charges themselves were in his opinion considerably too high. The lowest appoint ment, be believed, was 5001. a year. it, however, all the accounts were distinctly laid before the House, he should object to many other appointments. lie should object, for instance, to the appointment of eight In• specters of Militia for the lonian Islands. where, lie understood, there was no militia to inspect ; the people having been disarmed by the Governor. These Inspec tors were each paid 3931. a year. The Noble Marquess had staled that every unnecessary expense had been re duced; sad he (Mr. Hume) should be much gratified to hear him state who; was the necessity for keeping up these offices. In the same manner lie would beg the attention of the Committee to the expenses incurred at the Cape of Good Hope. The allowance originally made to the Governor was but• I,10W.; now it was no minally 10,0001, s year; but in fact it could not be taken at less than 25,0004 a-year, if the large establishments allowed to the Governor were taken into the calculation. He had a Colonial Beeretary at 3,600/. a-year; another Secretary at 1,5001. a-year (who held other offices besides) and several subordinate officers; and all this in a colony, the revenue of which is not more than 116,0001. a-year. Surely, if we paid the recess 'if intpeadttorei we Darin to have the particulars of the revenue. But is this Co lony there was an Auditor of LOOM myear ; a Post Captain at 5001, a Comptroller; at 1,0001.; in short the Estahlialiment was as lung as a tailor's bill. The whole revenue was fritted away in allowances of this details don, nine or ten thousand pounds might be saved is the expellees at the Cape alone. At the Mauritius the ex pen-es were 'lipoid as tench es those at the Cape; and yet the rt venue was but hidalar:l. Which, hewever. was enough to meet the ex: wares if the colony wore will ar ranged. 'i here• was considerable loss sustained from public defaulters ; an instance of which was to be fined in this very colony in the ease of Theocioredooks. whose defalcation might to be made good by 'Whatnots, as they had neglected their duty in nat taking security ter the faithful performance of hi. trust. There was at this colony the numl rewire of Auditor and Dimity ' s Pay master at 16410/. aie4B an Assistant at fire bemired pounds, and Clerks wi h proportionate salaries. The aopenee. however, did not stop here; for there was a ,Collecsor of the inland revenue at 154101. a-year, (with as allowance of two and a half per cent. on the sum he col lected.) a civil engineer. with as assistant, EC4. Thiee had been much clamonr made about the redudass of few clerk*, at small salar'es ; bat this shewed a disposi tion to ezonomise by trifles, and to expend by wholesale. He recommended the Committee to reduce the present sate by IGO thousand pound*. and leave Ministers to effect the nee y realm tion-. The Hon. Member then referred to the expenee incurred for Jamaica, the Cape. Ilihraltar, Sierra Leone, and Heligoland, which he COM tended were ion too large a scale. He then adverted to the expense incurred for Canada, trlsirls, he said, ought to maintain its own Staff. Tbe expeneethe tht Staff was 10,4961., and 10,392/. fur the Colunritsariat. The cir cumstance of the C i.striat rusting almost as much as the Stall was unprecedented. There was a charge too. he observed, of rto less than 5,9001. fir postage. — lie had lately seen some one from Ilerluce, who as enrsl him that one half of the Staff might be dis pensed with, and one half of the Commissariat totally unnecessary. lie contended, therefore, that if there were a real desire to economise the public money, reductions would have been toads in this quarter.— lie was convinced that if the proper reductions were made. with proper management, 500. 060 f, lustre.' of 700,000/., would be quite enough for the Colonies.— Having disposed of the Colonies, be Iwggerl to direct the attention of the Right Ilan. Secretary to the extra vagant expenditure of public money in Jersey and anernsey. Fur those islands there was a charge in the Estimates off:LIM. which certainly was too lunch. He maintained that the house ought to have regular and se parate Estimates for these Islands, with their Revenue fairly put down. Ile should like to know from theChan cellar of the Exchequer what was the turiv.ing of the charge of 9001. for the management of a Butch Loan. He did not know what we had to do with taking on our selves the payment of the interest of this Loan, which he really believed was originally raised for carrying on war against this country. The lion. blembercomplain lid of the classification of the different items of expen diture comprised in these estimates. Many items that appeared in them ought properly to have appeared in the ordinary estimates; and no doubt the object of placing them as they were was that votes might betaken for the same charge is both the *edit:Aries and wrier dinaries. He wished to see the whole of our WINO Iss elia Colman pissed upon a more Biwa footfige.. It the British Cosedtation were fully and fairly adnamistered to therm, they would be found to thrive more dm at present. sod e better able to support themselves. He did not intend to move at once for that reduction in the whole vote which he thought would be justifiable, but until be knew if there was a disposition on the part of Hon. Members to support him, he should COOOlai him• self with moving to diminish the vote to a smell amount. The reduction be wished to make was in the exorbitant salaries paid to Colonial Agents, whose duties were few and unimportant, compared with what they received for undertaking them. The rates to which he desired to reduce the different Agents were as follows :—The Agent for Ceylon, 1,200/.. Cape of Good Hope, 6001., Malta. 6001.. the Mauritius, 5110/.. the linden Islands 3001. This would make a redaction from the original vote of nearly 60001., end he moved therefore as an amendment that the vote be 694,023/. in place of 700,0001. Mr. BARLIAM wished to ask whether the Hoe. Member meant to give a constitatioa to all the Coln- Dies indiscriminately? It appeared to him, that in the case of poor Colonies. this grant would be consi dered no boon, as they would have to maintain their own Governments. Mr. HUME said he adverted to the maintenance of Demurer& and Trinidad which cost much money, which be contended would be better employed in be ing used towards the support of the rest of the West India Colonies. He wished to see &shim. De and Trinidad with the same government as the other Island.. Mr. BARHAM could not sot see how the pried. plea of the British Constitution, being -extended to Trinidad according to the Honourable Member's mo tion, would put one farthing into the Treasury of that Island. Mr. WILMOT rose to defend the original The Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Hume) seemed to have mistaken the sense of the vote, for the reductleas which he proposed had nothing to do with the Ater Rxtraordioaries. The Hon. Member had also viewed the Colonies in a wrong light. It was not fair to cal culate all the expense arising out of their 0 scot as a dead weight, for when the Hon. Member was drawing up the account at all, he ought to set off profit against loss, and so strike a balance. Now, the reve nue derivable from the Colonies 11.15 27t1,000L a year. which ought to be deducted from the expense of go- Toning them. The Hon. Secretary then proceeded to defend the Colonial Agents. He contended that they bad important duties to perform, and they were paid by the Colonies. He was persuaded the Colonies world not consent to their reduction. He next dr fended the Inspectors of the lonian Militia. It was true the militia was sot embodied. but these officers had other duties to perform, for which they would have been paid otherwise. Without such otheers, too. it would have been much more difficult to govern the islands. He contended that the Agent to the looian islands kept up a correspondence with thesis states, and could not, therefore, be dispensed with. He should be but little surprised if the Hon. Member de clared his intention of dispensing with Colonial Agents altogether. With regard to their salaries, a Commission was about to proceed to Ceylon and the Mauritius, to 'squire, amongst other things, what re dactions might be made in the salaries of officers there. The flop. Member had said that officers might be procured who would do the duties of the several departments snore cheaply. This remiedrl him of the boasts held out in the riots at Stockport, that a Chancellor of the Exchequer world be gat to