The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

Wig* - :. -4 ..7 - N. -- - .f;i • •-:( , '4 • . . • • t 1 . .4 '. .t . ; . : I; t' 17 " • 111%4 W . . .. ' - ..- ' 1 1 , r . • •••• ..- . . , ..., •.• . .... .. . • ... . . .• •. „,•„....,,,, • • .. . .. ... . . . . • • . t ~ • . _ . . . • . •,• . . • . i * I. • .1, n . i I r. 0• • r . Ii .- : ' l , •e, `. f I.J l' . " .4 0 11 *( 1. •'.;. 1. % . at . . ... ~ • ' . . . (11-11)11t 4 V ~i it* I .4 10 . 'I LONDON, SATURDAY; FEBRUARY 1, 1812. No. 1852. PRICE er 0. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, ,Liva. 31. The Lord Chancellor took his seat on the Woolsack about four oclock, and after Praye.rsournmen were read some routing business was disposed of. An du ringat pleasure then took place. About five o'clock the House resumed, when the two Exche quer. Bills Bills were read a second time. , The Sugar Importation, and the Malt Ditty Rills, were read a third time, and pare'!. The Royal Household Bill was brought up from the C.sm mons by Mr. Lushinr,tou and other Members, and read a first thee. The Earl of LIVERPOOL, on the Bill being read a firs time, moved , "That the Bill he printed;* nod acquainted their Lordships with his intention to move the second reading of the Bill ou Tuesdsv next. Ur. LUSIII2ittTON also pomaded the Household Bill; which sas read& first time and ordered tit be prietc.„. Monte accounts were ordered, on the motion of - the T all of ' LA UDERDALE,but from the irregularity thist a prevailedbelo* the Bar, which space was uncommonly crowded, we could sot learn the purport with sufficiebt correctness. STATE OF IRELAND. The order for summoning their Lordships being read, Earl FITZWILLIAM rose for the purpose of bringing ford the motion, of which repeated notice had been given by his Noble Friend(Lord Grenville). A considerable portion of the Noble Earl's speech, particularly the introductory part, was delivered in a low and rather faint voice, n hich precluded dis tinct audibility. He had come forward in order to bring under the consideration of their Lordships, one of the most important subjects, in all itp views and hearings, which could possibl y call for the attention of the.lmperial Parliament. But:though momentous and important as the subject was at the time the notice was first given, greatly as it pressed upon the early and anxious attention of the British Senate', yet he cer tainly little thought that its peculiar importance, and the necessity of a speedy investigation, would be in calculably increased by the view and consideration of circumstances of recent occurrence, which were, be believed, unprecedented in the annals of the coun try. The events and circumstances to which he allu ded, he could not have eutertained en idea of, when he first proposed their Lordships being milled together fer the objects he had in view. The proceedings to *hid he adverted went to shake the foundations of these great bulwarks of civil liberty ; nay, to endan ger the personal safety of the .subject ; and, he be lieved, he may venture to challeiige the House to produce any instance of the kind in the judicial his tory of the country, for the last century ; they mili tated against the very principles by which the liberty of the subject was upheld. These prwcqedisigs rendered it more imperatively incumbent on their Lordships to consider the general subject, of which such proceedings had now become a very prominent and important part ; not only with a view to the se curity of the undoubted rights of those who were most immediately liable to be affected • but with a view to the point (though occurring on the other side of the water). in the light of precedent and example. That house, particularly, could not be too feelingly alive or too vigilant on such an occasion, as the rights, the liberties, and the personal safety of their fellow subjects at large, were implicated in the consideration. The rights of the people with respect to the purity of the trial by jury, he regarded as the, palladium of the public safety. The most anxious and jealous care should be taken to provide for and assert the due and upright administration of that most important branch of our judicial system. But a more regular opportunity would arrive for a detailed disrussiou of I this part of the subject ; for it was one w hick must be considered ; and he trusted, when that day should l arrive, Parliament would mark itsstrongand decisive vase of such proceedings. The subject to which he had more regularly and directly to call their Lord: sl:ips' att en ti on was one which involved the general stale of Ireland ; and on that general ground he had framed the proposition he should have the honour to submit. An investigation of the general state of the country, would best spew the real grounds that ex- Wed for the loud . and repeated complaints of grie 'mice to which their attention would be called ; they I would find that a more serious " difference," at least he may 'ue allowed to call it, existed between the Go- . ; vernment and the people. By -the word people, he was far from meaning exclusively the mass of the po. pulation, but the great body of the proprietors, and men of consideratiou in the country ; and such a state of things he must say existed in that country. If not the original, at least'the most prevalent cause of this state of things was, as had been often and frequently urged before, the deprivation of their undoubted rights; and until such an alarming and oppressive grievance should be redressed, they must naturally expect that the subject would again and again be pressed upon their. attention ; for, without such re dress, they could not expect either harmony or sa tisfaction in that part of the empire: A great' deal Mats apparently laid at the door of religious difier ences of opinion, but he might be allowed to say, that, in reality, and in fact, not one particle of reli gious consideration could be fairly ascribed to it.— This, he would venture to say, would-be found the case, when they came to examine; they would find that difference in religious sentiment had, in reality, very little to do with it. But, he would ask, could airy man be fairly and conscientiously kept out of his civil rights —even of the common rights of subjects, `of the religious opinions he might entertain ? in repeated, it was Ito difference in religi. .nts that formed the grounds of the exclu :holies from a due share in the representa- ! liament, and from those various other un tilts of which they were deprived. It was ibute it to the difference of opinion : for ith respect to the doctriue of transubstan was impossible to say, that a man could true and loyal subject because he be instead of his receiving the real body .'~. o ß n u a t cc:n - 1174;j agail ous sentimei siou of Catln tion in Perlis doubted sigh idle to attrib instance, i tiati on, it w be a more t prod that, and blood of Christ at one of the sacraments, it was done only in commemoration of the Saviour. The 1 Nobie Earl here took a short historical view of the conduct of the British Governments to their Catholic 1 , subjects, especially in the eventful reigns of Charles the Second and of William the Third. But time and I circumstances bad most importantly altered since those eventful periods—there was now no Catholic Pretender to the Throne, nor did any of those vari ous objections, upon which formerly such stress was laid, exist at present. The claims of the Irish Catho lics had been seriously considered and attended to in the Parliament of that country ; they, had been in part recognized, and a certain portion of justice af ,forded to them. Some of thok rights were restored l . but aosy-of their most ietamillat ii43,lB,meie. shil! • withheld; the elective frenchise had been accorded; bat they were precluded from all share hi the legisla tive lower; from all situations of command in the army and the navy. They should consider, that by the _measure of Uniou, that part of the empire were desti tute of the superintending care of their Parliaments, and they had now none to look up to forredress,save that and the other House of Parliament. Why should our Catholic fellow-subjects alone be pre cluded from a participation in the common bandits of the Constitution under.which they live I As log hs . such -a considerable part of our population are kept in such a state, they Might naturally be expect ed to complain. His . object was to bring this great and important consideration fully and seriously to the VIQW of Parliament. They would see the policy as well as the justice of affording some, among so mime rots, a portion of their fellow-subjects, a chance of be ing admitted into the Goverment of their country.— lis saw no rational ditficalties or obstacles which now obtained to the speedy consideration 'of the subject. An investigation called for no less by necessity and by - polky than strict national justice. They could uner hope for a tranquil or satisfactory state of 1 things in Ireland, until the grievances of so great a rpoition of her population were redressed ; a cora- I' sentimation which more than any thing else, would tend to the happiness, - the prosperity, and the se curb', of the Empire :it large. The Noble Earl con cluded by moving, " That a Committee be appoint ed to empire into, and consider of the state of the affairs of Ireland." . The Duke of DEVONSHIRE in a first, but very short, though pertinent, speech, seconded the motion. Ho perfectly eencurred In every thing that had fanPll &am his Noble Friend, .Wph him he felt thee that sehjeat 'rowan* whteit leedircalted for this attention of the House, and while things were suf. fered to remain in their present state in Ireland, they must expect to have it unceasingly pressed upon their attention. Nut only the justice and character, but the safety of the country, was involved in the con sideration. On the question being pnt, The Earl of ROSiEsletlared his opinion, that no thing which had fallen from the Noble Earl should induce the House to accede to the Motion. With the Noble Earl, however, he lamented the existing state of that part of the United Kingdom ; and no person could be snore happy to'contribute in extend in-to every branch of his Majesty's subjects all that was desired, as far ai his convictions of prudence and safety would admit. No one could be more ready in recommending that Parliament should receive and attend to the petitions of the country at large. For his part, he begged leave to say, that attached as he was, to all the people of Ireland, of whatever religious persuasion they may be, he must naturally he inclined to accede to any measure which he really thought would tend to the prosperity of that count ry, or the welfare audsecurity of the empire at large. At the same time, he must say, that he believed the present to be a peesdiarly improper time to accede to the motion of the Noble Earl. The proposition may be regarded in a two-fold light ; first, as it Went to routiliete the Catholics of Ireland; and, secondly, with a view of casting a reflection upon the present Government of Ireland. In considering the subject, the late conduct of the Irish Catholics formed a pro mitsent point. And first, he must say,.he deemed the Catholic Convenficrn.a proceeding of a very dan gerous nature; but a point on which the Noble Earl laid great stress in the outlet, was what was alleged to take place respecting a Jury, and for this he had no foundation orauthority than vague report, or what was stated in anewspaper. Was it upon such an hypothesis! that august Assembly wtve cal led upou to go into aCom .mittee on the affairs of Inland ?. Were they to pro ceed on so slight, so hypothetical a basis ? Was there a single document before them to prove the alleged facts ? or did any one Parliamentary ground exist for bottoming such an argument ? The Noble Earl had asserted that no time should be lost in resorting to some measures. But he must aver that be adduced no solid or substantial grounds for such an enquiry 'as was desired. The conduct of the Irish Govern ment, he must contend, was such as the exigencies of the crisis called for; if, indeed, they hid acted otherwise they would have betrayed aculpabie want of prudence, and a s hatlieful pusillanimity.—Uicar, hear !]—Suppose there were no other objections, the conduct of the Catholics was such, that if the Go vernment did not interfere ai it had, the would them selves have eventually become the victims. Ile deemed it unnecessary to follow the Noble Earl over ! the ground he had taken. Ile would not so fir tres pass upon their Lordships' time, but would direct ' their attention to what appeared to him to be the main point. It was contended that the Irish Go vernment had obstructed the Catholics in the exer t rise of their constitutional right of petitioning. If such were the ease, then, that. Government would deserve at It the censure of that r But in fact thitbflfetwidob. different. ' tin.lics s undosiillila (4 tf aiMIN rig h t _ • -- . . - +~-=--~- ' I their Sovereign or the Legitature whiCh all their fel- mast faudable moderation and loyalty of temper.— low subjecti enjoyed; but what he insisted on, was, It should be recollected that the population of ire. that the Irish Government had never attempted to land had long since been admitted to the elective interfere in hny proceeding of the Catholics which franchise, while the Catholic Nobles, Gentry, and had the object of petitioning fairly in view. The fact men of property are held unworthy of being the was, that they had thought tit to proceed to the form- Representatives of their brethren ! While he titian of a Representative Convention. Against a had the honour to hold a share in the Govern. 'procedure of this kind (said his Lordship) the Irish went of Ireland, he did every thing in his power COvention Act had been more particularly framed. under these circumstances to conciliate and softest 1 The Members of the Honseof Commons,and no other, their condition; he conjured the House to consider the were the legitimate and constitutional representa- situation in which so numerous a portion of their fel. I tires of the people. What an incongruity, at best, low subjects were still held, and to turn their serious would it present, to see one assembly affecting to attention to the critical situation in which so valuable speak the sentiments of the country, while another a branch of the empire was placed, in consequence of expressed them in a manner directly opposite ? .Bet such deprivaiimmettei the nsiscondact of Its Gevevie '.lice danger, of suffering such an assembly to exist was meat . For this, the motion of his Nob'..: Friend ' tbe more important conside/116m. Had each ea as. afforded them a convenient oppotennity._ 'lt. were sembly been suffered to cehtinue until now, what a waste of their Lordship? time to expatiete epee 1 destructive consequences might not hove ensued ! theietopics. Instead of the harsh snd hoeties system An assembly so constituted, if tolerated, might 1 which was latterly adopted, they should hold out the think proper to discuss the questions of peace and I olive branch and the ha! 8 of friendship.—[llear, war—the resources of the country, the taxes neces- . hear!]—Such was the only way to unit, all hands sary for the continuation of hostilities, and the ability and hearts ; and such conduct e eu;d teed more ef -1 of the people to bear them; the commerc::, the exchan- i fectually than any other, to promote not only the ges, and the currency of the empire-.all these topics ; tranquillity and happiness of Ireland, but the best in. such a Convention may' proceed to discuss ; iu terests and security 4 f the Empire at large. short every thing discussed in Parliament might 1 The Earl of ABERDEEN took a survey of the most undoubtedly he debated in such an assembly. ! general state of Ireland, in order to examine what it .As - to the objection and its temporary duration, he' was which could so urgently call for au inquiry into would say, if it were lawful to discuss them one day, I the condition of that country at the present moment. it would be lawful to do so another, and so on to I What most forcibly struck him in considering the any tweeter. Such an assembly, if tolerated, might ; state of Ireland, - vas the taneaud attitude which the sit whether Parliament were sitting at the time or body of the Roman Catholics hadassumed in the pre. not.. No arguments, however plausible, should, he paration and furtherance, as they called it, of their contended, be allowed to sutler a precedent of so dint- petition to Parlianieet. Was the present the proper gerous and destructive a nature as the establishment moment for pressing forward their claims ? Was of such a Convection. No Government could long their petition ready to be laid now before the House ? maintain itself if such a system prevailed—no Go- , Was it in the manner in which that petition was pre. vernment in its senses would sutler the existence, still pared, or the circumstances that attended and marked less the continuance of such an anomaly !—(llear, ; their meetings, Parliament was to discdverand hall that hear ! )—That of Ireland, therefore, had acted moste moderation, that forbearance, that respect, for the prudently in not suffering such an assembly to coati- : laws, that veneration for the Constitution, which had nue organized in the capital. It was necessary to ;so much and so frequently been the theme of pane put the existing laws in execution for the preserve- gyric and applause uith their advocates ? What tion of the State.—(flcar, hear .9—They were justi- was the real object of the motion which the Noble bed not only in the principle, but in the mode of Earl had this night submitted to their Lordships' their conduct, as was amply illustrated by the pro- consideration i Were test the Noble Mover and those ceilings of the Catholics. The proclamation of . who supported him, anxious rather to extend the in. the Duke of Richmond on one day, was followed by quiry into the whole conductor his Majesty's Govern that of Lord Fingall on the next. They had set meat--to canvass and criticise their proceedings under themselves in open hostility to the Government of all the aspects of that conduct ? This he believed Ireland, which was unjustly blamed for exciting dis- was the true motive amid object of the present motion. e•sstente, while in fact they had only eurnmed tha But ha had attentively watched the proceedings of i• laws of the country. The Noble Duke at the head the Government in Ireland; indeed the general mea of the Irish Government would, instead of meeting . , sures of his Majesty's Government, both there and at with censure, meet the applause of every impartial home; and his humble opinion was, that conduct not man who had the opportunity of observing the acts of . only was not deserviii7 of blame, but was highly his administration. His conduct, instead of being entitled to commendation. It would be imperti. harsh or precipitate, was rather remarkable for its nent in him to detain their Lordships with a de- Iconciliation and forbearance,. to tho utmost hounds .: tail of all that had recently passed in Ireland. All lof prudence and safety. He begged the House to he would now take upon himself to say wa-:, that recollect what was the conduct of America when she in all their late proceedings, the conduct of the I was determined to separate from this Country? Was Irish Catholics, notwithstanding their own, and it not the organization of a representative conven- the claims of their advocates to the praise of mo t tion ? What was the case with respect to France the deration and forbearance, had every thing in it 1 other day? Was not an assembly of the 'tales-Ge- that bespoke the very reverse, and appeared to him, neral first called, and a National Convention imme- upon the whole, to be highly reprehensible. They i diately afterwards organized ? The dangers of suf- seemed wholly to Torget the many successive endea. ; feriug such an assembly to have existence, were in. , yours timeliest been• made to improve ind meliorate calculable, and he felt that the Government of Ire- , their conditions ; endeavours which theJiberality of I land had only exercised its power, at a crisis when their own Parliament, and of their Protestant fel -1 the safety of the state was seriously menaced ! (Hear, ' low subjects, had carried as far as respect for the I bear ! )-- •Had it acted otherwise, its supineness and Constitotion, and a due regard to its security, would pusillanimity would have been censurable indeed—it admit. Much had been said about the rights of I had enforced the laws on which the safety of the State mankind—about the rights of the Irish Catholics to I depended. Had it declined to do so, the case in both ' privileges and immunities which they claimed—Will !countries would have been different, but infinitely the Noble Lords who state thi3 question of right, worse. Increased murmurs, and multiplied alarmists contend that the Irish Catholics can claim those prie would have been one of the lightest consequences; vileges and exemptions as matter of right? Will • but, as it was, he deemed them, instead of censure they assert that the question of right properly belongs and reproach, deserving of theapplause and gratitude to the situation of the Irish Catholics? If they do, 1 of the country. , then must they be also prepared to assert that it does The Duke of BEDFORD strenuously supported trot belong to their Lordships' House; that neither 1 the motion. He considered what had been advanced , this nor the other I louse of Parliament, nor both 1 by the Noble Earl, as not tending in the smallest do- ! together, have the right to impose restrictions on any I g ree to do away the arguments and the facts ad. 1 class of men, even were those restrictions deemed ne. : verted to by his Noble Friend. With respect to i cessary for the security of persons and property, arid the recent conduct of the Government of Ireland, 1 for the general good and welfare of the community he widely differed from him. An eulogium had .at large. lie should not enter into any minute dis. been pronounced on the Noble Duke at the head cussion of the tendency and nature of religious opt- of that Government. He trusted, however, it ' nions merely in their speculative form. Ile wished would be allowed him, notwithstanding his near to consider them only as they might shew themselves connection with that Noble Personage, to express practically, and how far that practice was or was not himself as to this particular point, of a different inimical to Government. Under this point of view, I opinion. The effects of the unfortunate measures of he would consider the Claims of the Catholics ; and that Administration were too obvious, he thought, ask what had been refused to them, or, rather, what to allow the merits of the question to be undecided. i had not been granted to them within the space of a The actual state of Ireland he too felt, with his .No- : very few years ? And, after all these concessions, ble Friend, to be such as forcibly to call for the of what did they now complain, and what did they speedy interposition of the Government and LegiAa- further require ? Their complaint, it seems, was ture of the Empire. What was that situation ? It , now reduced to this, that they were still precludes was a Catnolic population under a Preeestant Go- ! from holding certain offices in the State. On this vernment. Four-fifths of that p o pulation had to' point they were at issve with Parliament, and would maintain their own hierarchy and their priesthood, their advocates contend, that as a matter of right while the other fifth were in possession of all the re- they could claim an admissibility to those high venues and the resources of the Government, to offices. This was the real state of the question. If maintain and uphold their own establishments! Un- that doctrine was set up, he for one would not hesi. der these circumstances, the Catholics had fre- tate to declare that such a doctrine was not tenable. quently approached Parliament in a supplicating at- He was as solicitous as any Noble Lord could be titude, for redress ; with what effect, was too.well for the better improvement of the cotaiition of Ire. known. The discontents of that country were land. But would the grentiog of the present claims to be attribtited to the intolerant spirit of of the Catholics contribute in the least to that im. those who now were vested with the powers provemeot ? Ile thought not--neither could he see of Government. The object of their recent con- the danger of withholding such a grant. At a dis. duct was, he thought, to induce the more effect, tance, some appearances would indicate dangers.-- and to give a character of dignite 4 / a nd solemnity, „Those dangers ,however, diminished as you approach. to their proceedings. This object was frustated by ed them, and vanished altogether upon a nearer view. the conduct of the Irish Government. Under such The Noble Lottl then proceeded to vindicate the rate circumstances, It would not perhaps be wonder- conduct of the Irish Government, and to shew that ful if the Catholics of that country had tilted differ. lisespirit which animated that conduct was its no re. ' etetie ; het, our. the etnabweYs they Asailleiliffeefled, se spot how* to the right of petitionle4 or .to say . . i . e • se. -• lee.. .. . . . ' 9ZP ' -, . . 4 .;1e r,4. 9... • ' N