The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

I I . i a ~. ~: I 1 , , • , 1 ■ r I a STATESMAN. tither right to which the Catholics had a fair claim ? here then were grounds of the invectives which the Noble Duke (Bedford) had heaped upon the conduct of that Government towards the Roman Catholics? What prejudice or severity has been manifested with re , pect to them ? Were not the persons of the Ro. man Catholics held as sacred, and was not their pro. perty kept as secure as those of their Protestant fellow subjects ? Let the Noble Duke adduce one instance of flagrant partiality towards Protestants, and of pre judice and severity against the Catholics, and he would then acknowledge there were some grounds for inquiry. Let it even be shown that the operation of the Convention Act would be less injurious to the . Protestants than to the Catholics, if the former should act in violation of that law. If the Pro testants, under the pretence of petitioning the King or Parliament, or any other pretence whatsoever, should delegate and assemble 600 persons of the first respectability and weight among them ; if that as sembly were to meet and deliberate, and thus form a representative body, independent of the Legislature, would the Government be justified in allowing such proceedings to go on without interruption ? Was not such, however, the recent conduct of the Irish Ca tholics; and was their conduct, contrary an it was to law, and pregnant as it might have proved with the most dangerous consequences to the State, to be al lowed to pass unnoticed and unchecked ? That in deed Would be an instance of blind and'extmordi`nary partiality and favour towards the Roman Catholics. The Noble Lord next entered into a vindication of the latejudicial proceedings in Ireland, and contend ed that it was the indispensable duty of the Courts to proceed as they had done. It was not surely to be allowed, that pictures of sedition were every day to be exhibited with impunity, without any interference on the part of a►ny of the Constituted Authorities of the Country ; that would unquestionably not be the surest means olimproving the condition of Ireland. No ! the prosperity and happiness of the United kingdom would be promoted by natural sacrifices, by reciprocal forbearance, and by the harmony of the exertions and energies of both, as cordially co operating against the machinations and the violence of the common enemy. Such being the impression of bis mind he must vote against the motion for a Com mittee of Inquiry. of right, it was not necessary for him to examine and I discuss. His Noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen) had, in his opinion, completely settled and disposed of that question. Inde, it was true, as his Noble Friend had observed, that such a doctrine was wholly nn tenable. * That doctrine, had, however, been set up in that House by very high authorities. They ar gued that the concessions .called for by the Catholics, should be granted to them as matter of right; while, at the same time, it was contended, that the.higher orders of the Catholics, were deprived of the privi leges they should enjoy, .while all the concessions were in favour of the lower orders of that persuasion. This, in his opinion, was forming a strange notion of a right. He imagined that where there was a right, there could be no distinction of persons ; that it was the very essence of a free Constitution, that 1 where there was a right, it should be equally enjoyed by all descriptions of persons living Juicier the same free Government, by the higher orders as well as the lower, and vice versa. When the improvement acid , melioration of the condition of Ireland 'Was sought after, it was the condition of its peasantry which it I should be our study to improve. Among them idle nesvand ignorance still, prevailed, and as long as they were exposed to the influence of these vices; their condition could not be improved. lie had never been a friend to the penal laws by which the people of Ireland had been oppressed.— --It was a vicious system—and he agreed with Mr. Burke, that that system had, at one time, been eurtitd 'Woos per- '` fectioc. Such a poliry he deplored—.he detested *the extreme to which it had been carried. Rut while he deplored such a policy, he could not but acknow- I ledge the fatal necessity which gave it birth, and ; referred for his justification opt this head to the spirit and the practice which prevailed among the Irish Catholics at the period to which he alluded. The laws which were then enacted, had only for their object the security of property. But he was sorry to , be obliged to say, that their mischievous influence and effects still continued. They were to be found in the 1 idleness and ignorance of the peasantry, as he had a 1..! ready observed ; but that evil was not to be remedied by granting to the higher orders of the Catholic per suasion the privileges and rank to which they were! said to be entitled, Was it for such an object that the House was called upon to go into a Committee Nf E-- - • ?- -What other erounds had there been to look to the case of the Magistrates and Sheriffs : the Sheriff was appointed by the Crown, and, of course, was affected by a similar security. the Magistrate was recommended by persons high in influence and. respectability, and, in this case, as in the others, there was no chance of a preference in favour of dis affected principles. If, therefore, no harm was likely to happen from granting this boon to the Ro man Catholics of Ireland, why should they refuse it ? They had heard a gviaft deal. that night of the bene fits which we're already cooferred upon the lower or ders, and they had heard that the present claims would affect, the higher orders exclusively, but this appeared to him a most sup2rficial argument.— The !ewer dames w6roonly guided by persons of better educa tion, and if this measure was granted, they would be le,l by men of great property and distinction—men scho were already disposed to venerate the Constitution of the country, and to ' guard the stake which they possessed in the advantages of her tree and happy Government. By granting this measure, they would give those Men a greater weight with the lower orders; bat, by punitive a costrary course, they would disoblige the great, without benefiting the inferior, and throw the guidance of those minds into the hands of villains, who wished for con fusion; by granting this measure, they would act in the most po litic manner with regard to the whole mass of the Irish Ca tholics; for surely it was impossible that a great body of people should - not be more yolealed with the Government which placed them upon equal footing with their fellow-sub jects, than with one which had thought proper to draw dis tinctions to their disadvantage and to its own disgrace. It was impossible that it should be otherwise, while Iwo were men. The individuals who at present governed the minds and passions of the lower orders of the Catholic community, were perpetu ally dinging in their ears that they were oppressed. The doing away of - all disqualifications was the way to surmount this diffi culty, and to remove this pretence. The Roman Catholics, he agreed, ought to feel, that they had obtained more relief from their present Monarch than sincethe Reformation ; but if there was something more which it was the interest of the public to give them, he did not see why , that should be refused; The laws of the country encouraged them to enter into its service is the army and navy I but if in that situation they were to be sent to England, they were subject to penalties for their re ligion. Was this no hardship to them I Was this no disgrace to us ? Would it not have disgraced the worst of times, and tie basest and most disturbed of Revolutionary Govern ments?—[.leer. heue, 'hear !] —The fact was, that as the law now stood, they were liable to informations on this account, aid the reason that informations were not given, was because we were ashamed of our own act, because it was so contrary to reason, to justice, and to the feelings of Englishmen, that out of the very dregs of the people (for dregs there must he in all won tries) there could not be found one so vile as to avail himself of the power. He would have them to give the Catholic Laity all they asked. It was right they should have it. They hail al ready done too much to retract, and if they did not mer.n to do more, were unwise in having done half m much. lie agreed with the Noble Viscount (Sidmouth) in disapproving of dictate conduct of the Catholics, but if the Catholics had acted inton sistently, was that any reason why we should punish ourseliel ? Ne agreed with the Noble Viscount that it was necessary to lave - refusal led tiu The Duke ef . BEDFORD briefly expi nature of his charges against the Irish Government. The Marquis of DOWNSIHRE insisted that nothing had been done towards improving the state of Ireland ; but that every measure of late, particularly the measure of the Union, had greatly tended to de teriorate her condition, to humble her pride, to sap the foundations of her prosperity. In being deprived of her Parliament, it was not one privation alone that Ireland had suffered. That privation had in volved many other severe and degrading privations. /t deprived her of her metropolis ; it deprived her of her name as a kingdom ; it deprived her of her no bility privations which of themselves are sufficient to sink the spirits, and unnerve theenergies of a peo ple. It moreover tended to drain her of her money, by remittances to absentees, and thus deprived her, not only of the example and influence which a nobi lity and gentry are wont to exert over a country, but also of the advantage of resources which were drawn from her soil. Indeed, in every point of view in which the measure of the Union could be contem plated, it would appear with disadvantages and degradation to Ireland, instead of benefits. It promised great advantages to the Catholics, to induce them to concur in promoting the measure, and repaid that concurrence with disappointment and ingratitude. Instead of mutual conciliation, it only begot disaffection and ; and in every respect it could only be looked upon as a nominal union. Such appearing to him to be the coudition of Ireland, he could not but support irty motion that had for its object to better that con dition. The Earl of HARbWICKE defended the conduct of the different Governments of Ireland for a num ber of years past. Most of them had been marked by concessions and indulgence to the Catholics.— Out of these concessions fresh claims and demands seemed to grow—though they were granted, they were expected to afford entire satisfaction, and to put a stop to any further solicitations. In the year 1793, the Elective Franchise, and the right of ac quiring property were conceded to the Catholics— and. it wu then understood on all hands that the spirit of concession had gone to its fullest length. — No one could redoice more than • he did at the repeal of the penal laws ; but there must be some point at which a stand was necessary to be made. He could see no possible advantage in instituting an inquiry at the present moment into the state of Ireland. The granting of a Committee for that purpose, would be only to throw censure on the Government of Ire land, which their conduct was far from deserving.--, In other respects, he did not consider the present , t_tdc;- seasonable and propitious -01 ~ : nquiry for the necessity of such an inquiry at present ?tt.- The Noble Viscount then proceeded xo consider the conduct of the Irish Government, and of the No ble Duke at the head of that Government. There was not the least colour for any of the charges made against that Government. Abase all, no blame could be attached to the Noble Dike, with whose generous, humane, and gentle nature, he was Hall acquainted; a nature that would never allow him to oppress an individual, much less a large description of his fellow subjects. But why was such a motion as the present deferred till now ? Why has there been no necessity for it during the last eleven years ? Much had been said of the wisdom, the moderation, the patriotism of the Catholics on various occasions during that period; yet it never has !), , on thought ne cessary till now to adduce the di :p!ay of these vir tue. as a rennet for ; ; ranting a Committee of let' quiry. But it seems that some Noble Lords would have all the laws repealed upon which perhaps &s -pends the security of property. Yes, have them all repealed; and yet talk of securities in their room. The House did not now even hear of the Veto. Yet such counter-securities were no doubt absolutely ne cessary ; should not the King be made a co-ordittafe power with the Pope—but would the Catholics agree to this? Would their Hierarchy submit to this? He believed not. While such a state 'of things remained, he must dread not only the opinions, but the mo rals of the Catholics. He could not consent, with out due provisions for the safety of the present Es.. tablishments, to place in the hands of. the CatholiCs high military and legislative authority. Ho could not assent to this equalizing of religions. Ile could not assent to see the symbols and attributes of au thority carried one tin to Church, aud the next to Mass. The union of Church and State should ever be held sacred by him. They were inseparably uni ted, and every thing would be risked by the die solution of that union, of that most sacred alli ance.—From its downfall, the most dreadful politi cal convulsions and every other species of misery might justly be apprehended. With such an impres sion on his mind, he could vote for nothing that had' so fatal a tendency: he most therefore oppose the motion of the Noble Foil. Lord HARDWICKE briefly explained. . Lord SOMERS said the question should be con- sidered on the broad ground of justice and policy.-- The Catholics had reason to expect, that after the Union, they would obtain the privileges which were so long disputed; if it was not for that conviction, he understood that they would not have given their support to the measure; and if this was the case, had they not a strong claim of justice upon their part?,. an Eaablished Religion, but be could - not allow that the of those claims formed a proper foundation for the existence of that Establishment. A strong idea had gone forth, that the ll lustrious Person now at the head of the Governinent, was fa vourable to this measure ; and if Ministers had taken any steps to advise the contrary, they were wrong. Ile hoped that sky would see the expediency of satisfying the mind of that couirry, and asserting the character of this, by removing the disabilities under which so great a portion of the community at present la boured. The Marquis WELLESLEY said, that to look to Ireland with respect to its resources, its feelings, its interests, and its condition, was a subject well wor thy of their attention, as hereditary Counsellors of the Crown, or as British subjects; but this view should not be taken without regard to the ancient I usage, and wise custom of Parliament, which pre ' scribed, that they should not go into Committees, without deliberating on those feelings and interests, I,4nd on the tendency of the ultimate result. In. the first place, it would becoMe them to consider what effect it would be likely to have on the preseriation of the law of Ireland, and the tranquillity for which the law was framed. Secondly, What effect it would have on the Executive Power of Ireland, and on the peace, which that Executive should at all times pro , tect. And thirdly, What effect it would produce on the dispositions of the people, and on that trap , quit consideration of the question, upon which de pended our happiness as a nation, our means of de fence against the enemy, and the proper and perma neat establishment of Church and State. But what had the Noble Earl on the opposite side said ? • He had placed in the front of his argument a Newspaper report, of a trial between Government and certain individuals; but as far as he (Lord W.) understood the circumstances of that case, he believed that if a verdict was not given in favour of Government, a charge to that effect was pronounced by a Judge; yet the Noble fiord would have them go into a Com t mittee on such a case. [hear, hear !] He alluded to the conduct of the Government of Ireland re specting the Convention Act. If any thing had occdrred which could lead him to suppose that there was any intention in the Irish Government to step between the Crown and the subject, to throw a dif. ficulty in the way of the right of petitioning, or to f prevent in tiny manner the expression of the senti. meats of any body of the people, he would think that such a Government was unworthy of support: but he could perceive no such intention. The whole question was one of legal argument, and on tait, the decision of the Judges was expressly in their favour. He denied upon the part of Government, that any improper or unconstitutional attempt was made in 'the instance alluded to by the Noble Earl. The Ifkct was, that the Government Ncits atrised by the Law Officers that the constitution of such an assem- time and circumstances as . propita,, „ . 1 for the agitation of these questions. He must there. -If no mischief was likely to arise from granting their bly was contrary to law, ' that it was contrary fore oppose the motion of the Noble Earl. I request, what objection could be stated against it ?' to the Conveution Act. • The law was against Lord Somers and Lord Viscount Sidmouth rose at where were the dreadful ,consequences which the Assembly, and Government, in taking the the some time, when after a pause, the Lord Chan-' some persons seemed to anticipate, from allowing - . side of law, had only done its duty. He re cellar called on Lord Sidmouth. I them the right to sit and vote in Parliament ? membered that the opinion of Mr. Fox was in favour Lord SI UMOUTH said, that he feared that o n If he stated the number of Peers at ten or twelve, he ! of this very Act, in 1793, for he stated that the the present occasion he should not be able to do jus- supposed it would be the outside; and supposing in principle against which it was directed, was one cal tice to his own feelings. He derived, however, much the House of Commons, that one half of the Irish , culated to create disturbance. But whatever might satisfaction from what had fallen from two Noble Members were to be returned by that body, what have been the impressions at that time, now, after Lords who had preceded him. With the one (Earl mischief could arise from the admission of 50 Catho- the sitting of the Committee, and the knowledge of of Aberdeen) lie concurred in considering the prese n t li e Members among a body consisting of near 700 ? its proceedings, there could be no longer any doubt question as one of the deepest importance ; with th e ! He h a d always remarked, that on every question upon the subject. Yet what did the Irish Govern other (Earl Hardwicke), h e agre ed i n thinking, th a t th a t re l a t e d to the Roman Catholics, the great majo- ment do ? they barely issued a proclamation, stating after theconcessions made to the Irisheatholics inma, rity o f the Members at preseht returned by that coon- rthe law as it stood, and their determination to en. that concession had then gone it s u t mo st l e ngth, an d t ry vo t e d as they would have done if they were Ca- I force it. And what followed ? a direct and palpable that there a stand ought to have been made. But he tholics ; so that the evil to be apprehended from a ti violation of any doubt was entertained as to must differ from these Noble Lords in the view they nu m be r of Catholic Members Voting in the same that circumstance, let them appeal to the trial itself. took of the consequences that might arise to thiscoun_ way w ith a similar number of Protestant Members, At that trial there were some admirable specimens of try from any opposition to further concessions. Th e w as o f a nature altogether incomprehensible to the eloqueuee of the bar, and of the learning and .Noble Earl who • brought forward the motion seem- hi m , H e did not see in • what manner they I acuteness of the Judges, which every one must ap ed to think that more had been granted to the could be supposed to destroy the Constitution. i prove of, but the result was a distinct opinion that Mwer orders of the Catholics than to the higher : God f or bid that the Constitution should stand the letter of the law WAS in favour of Government. That the higher classes, the Nobility of that per. on suc h a ground as to be so easily and so Upon What ground then did the Committee stand ? suasion, were still deprived of the rauk and pri- unacc o untably shaken. But 'opposing them to at- If some Violent act were committed by the Govern alleges which they were entitled to , enjoy, while r i ve a t th e hi g h offices of State, still he could see nt) ment against the people their ground was manifestly many advantages were derived by the lower order of danger. Was * natural to suppose, that the Illus. I good. -But had Government so interposed ? Had it C a th o lics, f r om the concessions already made to trious Person now entrusted- with , the Govern. not maintained, instead of, defeating law? The line them. Yet to both, it had been argued, belonged meat of the country, would be likely 'to ap. which Government hod taken was one of admoni the right of such concessions. They were not to be point such Catholics to those offices us were likely to tion. It had told them that they were acting con matter of discussion and deliberation, they ought to overturn the Government, any" more than he would trary to law ; and in doing so f it had given them the be acknowledged as matter of right. This question appoint Protestants of a similar description? Agtgß best advice, Not was be swan of any thing which ' . . • . i f c o o r ud t l oo g a ie t v eo t r he m i r o r a o p o p! ! p c a t, ti r3 o u n a s t i o vo P c a o r m lia p r i o t l a , , m t o h r a e o iti the circumstance of having trampled on a Prociamatio e of the Executive Power, for the purpose of pre. eluding* step injurious to the public tranquillity:. _ Having stated these considerations, he thought the, grounds advanced by the Noble Earl were inapplica. ble to the cause. The management of the Catholics had circumscribed the question within more limited and minute considerations. If the House agreed to go into a Committee, they must be prepared to say. not merely that the Catholic claim shOuld b e accede/ to, but that this was a laudable act of theirs.--. With respect to the question as it affected the great body of the people of Ireland (and those who knew him, knew how deeply be felt upon all subjects le. lating to them), he did not think this . wes the favour. able moment of moderation in which it would le proper to decide upon it. It was °eta question now, nor had it ever been, merely for restraming the re, ligious opinions of individuals. The only point was, that every state had a right to restrain what, ever was likely. to he injurious to it. The whole of the question went to the degree to which the existing resti aints were necessary. All restraints on the sub. j ects of a State were themselvei evils ; but the denier on the other side might be greater than the evil of re. straint ; if so, let them hold to their restraints : but if not, neither justic, nor reason, nor policy, nor law', nor the print:} es of any free constitution could authorise a titer lion so flagrant. He was aware that the rest nts 'on 'the Catholics had p\ milc, been represented elsewhere as positively good ; as blessings that should be defended at all expence. A Noble Earl had rightly stated that It was a mere question of State. Let them on all sides consider it es such ; let them abate on one hand the pomp and pride of right, and on theUther, the folly and fury of bigotry. Let them dlipeffe themselves for liberal and enlightened views, and then decide whether the disabilities should be permitted to continue. In his ; opinion, the result of such a constderation, at the , same time dispassionate and manly, would be not ; only that the concession of their claims would nut endanger us, but that it would benefit us in our•mo t important ssruggle, ant afford us au additional secu• rity in Church and State. He would not undertake to say with what conditions or with what securities it would be necess try to surround this grant, but he wished that it was giv. w; he wished it, because he conceived that the refusal of it was the principle which held their discoutents together, which exposed them to the deceptions of designing men, and dreg i oft their attention from the advantages of the Con. stitntion. The restwctions under wich the Catho. I tics laboured at the present moment, embodied the whole of• their force against the existing establish. I went,' and those who were in 'the army and in the navy, fighting the battles of their country, would be drawn to that country by a more fond and fervent attachment, if they were rendered competent to all I the rank, and thereby to all the glory which their he, roism and their patriotism might deserve [lfear,hcarl 1 He knew there were persons who said that if these 1 reques's were granted, greater would be urged, and I he was, aware that if they were ate o act plum what ° valglarbe termed in open Old, 'they *vista eierciss their judgments_ to better effect than tbe - cramping • and difficult encumbrance of present circumstances. Era the Roman CatholiC possess no polhicil power! No person' who knew Ireland could say that did not : but should he not be possessed of snore'? It was indeed necessary. It was the only oseedi of aver:is; the danger to which we were exposed, and was it ' contrary to the Constitution? The Catholics VMS admitted into the service of the Crown, and if they ' distinguished themselves in that service, could it be ' said to be unreasonable to wish for the station they had deserved ? It was not unreasonable—it was ! cruel and monstrous to suppose it so, and it was foolish, and ignorant, and unprincipled to call it so. ISo far from being-unreasonable, it was the natural ieffect of natural causes—it was rational—it was right. I What! was it monstrous to aspire to represent that property by which they elected ? Could any man say that this was a vicious wish? Could any man deny that it was the natural impulse of a great mind, and the proper fountain of all those actions that ex• alt the characters of individuals and of countries?— ; He would acknowledge that he was not satisfied, that because there wns no Popish successor—that because certain tenets formerly ascribed to the religion wen abjured by the Universities, they should, therefore, without farther deliberation, accede to their demands, and admit them into the bosom of the Constitution. , If they asked to be admitted at once upon such grounds, he would answer that certainly they had removed many objections, but . still that deliberatioa was necessary, as it was impossible to forget ,the at tempts which were formerly made to introduce that religion into the State, and arbitrary power into the Country. Ho agreed with the Noble Earl in tha general pohatb, but he could not allow that the pr ,- - seta was-the time most favourable to the measure. Preparatory to OW step, the Catholics would them. aelves see the necessity of submitting to the law, and after they bad shown a disposition to obey its die. tates, they might then present the petitions in a sober quiet tone, not insisting on the claim of right, but addressing arguments to reason. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would not pay such a compliment to the Noble Marquis who spoke last, as to say, he had convinced his hearers. O a many points they were convinced already. It ought to be remembered that when the necessity of exc'a , sion ceased, the right of the Catholics to all the privileges of the Constitution commenced, and it became the duty of every Member of the Legela , tore to facilitate this admis-ion to all their rights. — ' By the Constitution of the country they were eat mitted to all its privileges. He begged leave to vis the Noble Marquis, in what manner many of his ob i servations could be applied. Whether there was any hear! t rig point was o t f he d r i e sco a n ny tent o i ling nthewciothuinntrtyhe k ? [f i f , c.:: : • • ledge of the Noble Marquis in the various im, 1 po to induce himto h itantsituatioiis in whichiic ohe that the Legi hadbeenp,if as aactuedre ' could he justified in not taking measures for re cpoo i l i a c t i i l o i n o „e e t N h e o m h a o b m i t o s o t a c ti o d o l f d e e b l e i e m g non present ero for inour considering Government.t h e question. Should of history by rejected, and shouldthritol:tehNiosSwrieaPns:ct failure teach us to amend our conduct in fature ..--- soroefpsrooplearrgtheaanpoc; 1 4 IF - : p . ! A . C '1 F 1'