The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-03-28 00:00:00

1 art of oppression ill mited to the character of guardians of " public Itherty, and destructive of the first and mon import " ant object of the Constitution, viz. the personal security of " the subject." The next passage was that commencing with the following words :- " Founded on such a basis, fortified by such euthorities as " I shalt have occasion to appeal to in the progress of this ". inquiry, I have little doubt of being able to convince every " impartial mind. that the House of Commons. by proceed " ing to jodomem-passing a sentence of impriseimient -••••• 4 ' issuing a warrant of ronunitinent-hoc ;nile hevnetl ins pre " scribed limits. acted in a manner inconsistent with the ends " of the institution, amt violated toe fundernental principles " of the Law ant Constitution of the Land." The next passage was " By proceeding thus, they have exercised a ,jurisdiction " not vented in them, a jurisdiction beyond the limits of " King, Lords, and Commons, while Marna Charm remains " unrepenled ; and repealed it never can he till England shall " have fouad her grave In the corruption of a House of 4 ' Comnions."-[Loud cries of hear, !scar! fom the Opp,- ;aline.] Tha next otaimsious passage was, that subsequent to the Speaker's warrant. " Let this instrument, this thina, sum generis, be contrasted 4 ' with the description of the properties of a legal warrant. " floes it not evidently appear, that this piece of unsealed " p aper, signed by the Speaker. by which an untried sub " je ct has been outlawed, bears n.l feature of legality? and 44 hat, from the commencenseut of this proceeding, hi its " Progress. and to its conclusion, there is not one step that hat not been waked in a peculiar manner with disrespect " for the laws? a disrespect in which all the parts have been 6 ' we - Kief filly cnissistent throughout, in consittuting the m'' 6l " uniewfhl art tha mind of man can possibly conceive."— (11ser, heart Iron time Treasury Bench.] Mr. LETHENDGE now called the attention Of the Hoqie to a pasforgl‘which he thought would of itself sub stantiate all complaint: it was this: " The commencement of this usurpation was whets they 44 (the Hoare of Commons) e., rid of the Upper House Of " Parliament, and eat n 0 the heed of the King. ru g din,' • 6 it sans:, err ernhotdened to retain an illegal power, not pre " tended to even be the King, but which, these lineal owe " reline over the king, claim as of right. But no wonder, " when they have so entirety departed from the ends of their " Mediation as was tinted to be proved by Mr. Marldneks, " and acknowledged by themselves, in the never-to-be-for " gotten morning of the 11th of May, 'lBO9, when, from be 's *the lower or inferior (far it is the same sense, one be " ing ao English, the other a Latin word), branch of the 6 ` Lealslature, they have become proprietors, by burgage ' tenure, of Ilse Representation; and in that capacity, in " Sated with their high-blown fainifid ideas of Majesty. and " tricked out is the trappings of Royalty, think privilege " and protection beneath their dignity, assume the sstord of ", preeopttive, and /tad it trolly over the King and the pea -1 pi s ? , These were the specific passages on which the complaint was (sanded;. on these he stood, calling open that Honourable . _ Moose to vindicate itself from a series of unjust and pas Aptillable aspersions, and punish the violation of their psi. *lieges in what manner aught, to their wisdom, appear most fitting. A pause eitsuieg,' The SPEAKER remarked, that the course of proceeding wag, after a complaint had been made,- and after the cola:ale:ion of that complaint had been anise taints!, to hear tbe Honourable Member against whom it had been preferred. . • Sir - F. BURDETT then addressed the Chair for a very few minutes, but io so low a tone of voice, that wenre not sore we correctly widerotood the Honourable Baronet. As far as we could collect the tendency of his olnervations be. appeared to us to lava that the paper which bad been' ribs lisped under his name, amid which had just been read by. the Clerk, contained opinioos which he had ant formed *Rho* murk cooslderation, and from which lie did not seems, Wee eon to depart. It was impossible for him to undentand, whit the Hon. Gentleman opposite meant by the term " Privileges of the Hituse." lie begged to /thaw whether it was berm sore fir him to withdraw. The SPEAKER replied, that a matter of complaint cif a breach of privilege had been stated by one lion. Member against another : the uniform course under such eireunistnacell. wits. that the person accused was first heard io his defense,' in which be might admit. deny, Or e vtenuate the matter with which he was charged. and that then 'he was required to withdraw. It then herniae time duty of the accuser to subal mit to the Home some prepositiore declaratory of their 'pinion no the facts before them. and of hi, proposition the Mouse would dispose at its pleasure. Unless therefore the Name departed train its usual mom of proceeding, which bad hitherto been ilea-top-a, end which lie hoped was ue. !Mumble-rifest, hear!)-the Hon. Baronet mot with- I draw before any other proposition could be rode. (01 load ere of withdrew), withdraw I. and Sir Francis Burdett ac cordingly withdrew.] Mr. WfLSON ruse. and was commencing some obser vations. when he was interrupted by The SPEAKER, whosaid, that the Hon. Baronet having withdrawn. it was the duty of the. Hon. Gentleman in whom the affair originated, to bring forward such a tuition as he might think most advisable. . Lord OSSU LIMON was also proceeding to make some °b eery:gimps, when . . The SPEAKER again interfered. As yet ther e was IS I question before the House. ... Lord OSSULSTON made same further o b servat ions.whtell were wholly inaudible in the Gallery. He was stopped by the cries of "Chair, Chair !" The 'SPEAKER rat. in obedience to the call of the Rouse, to set thg Noble Lon: right. As far as /hi (ramie-. tioMi had proceeded it was perfectly in conformity to the usage of the Home. It now remained fur the lion. Gentle- Nan to make his motion. Mr. L ETH BRIDGE said, that as it was the pleasure of the 'loose, he would proceed to make such motioas as appeared to him to be the most advisable. In doing this he shotdd.he extremely short, for many retions, the principal one of which ' was, that--,. , that- Lord FOLKESTONE spoke to order. The Honourable Gentleman had already made a speech on the present otea, sins. If it were the Hno. Gentleman's intention to atlyance any further argn.uents before his motion, he contended that his Hon. Friend was fully entitled to hear them. H's Hon. Friend had an unquestionable right to bear all the ckaraes that were to be preferred against him, although . the usage of the Howe might require that he should withdraw immediately before the motion - Tat SPEAKER apprehended that the' couroc which the }loo. Gentleman was about to pursue was perfectly consis tent with the theme of the House. He was about to submit In the Howe a proposition of which they were to judge. a proposition founded on the complaint which the Hon. Ba ronet against whom it was preferred had been present to hear. He apprehended that at was the duty of the Honour able Gentleman now to offer his motion, accompanied with whatever reasons he might think it necessary to offer to the lions, to induce them no ad.ipt it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER coincided in the ductrioe so clearly laid down from the Chair. The individual who thinks it bis duty to bring forward a charge, Wilmot to make a eosapharit so Ilse first instance to th e linme, and then in lay the particulaigrounds of bin charge upon the table, in a specitic shape. In the ease under consi deration, the whole of the documeot upon which the charge was founded had been read by the Clerk at the table ; and the !Inn. Member bringing forward the charge, had even pointed out, and read in his place, the particular Romero which he conceived to a.notint to a violation of the privileges of that House. The Hon. Baronet had bad an opportunity to prove, if he could, that the passages sn specified did not violate the privileges of that Nooses he had the opportunity to show how far they contained the sentiments of a person who entertained a respect for the privileges. of that lionise ; how far they were innocent in themselves; or justifiobietpnii any grounJi. The Hon. Gentleman. therefore, who brought forword this wafts°, was very properly proceedlog to mote the ground. apes w hich he enosidered the parariges he had. pointed out, as violations of the privileges of that Howe. Upoa the principle of reasoning adopted by the Noble Lord, the Hon. Bartioet should not only bear the grimed, upon , which the Hell. Mover brow ht forward his resolitialw, hat ell the arguments which should be made use of, in the whole course of the discussion. [Ns, ise f] Upon the teaasid et the thing, he would admit, titan an individual ander ala 110; ' cusatian ought to be allowed to bear all that might be in support of the charge against him. But open very% and saticiern reasons. that Home had thought proper $s adopt a ditTerent course in its proceeding', and to net weft . tinnily upon the principles which dictated it. If the Wiser able Baronst were therefore to be allowed!, hear the "API% of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Lethbridge), he would have an equal right to hear the wh o l e iliecossio "n; and . i both were nentonteut with the ituiforos practice is Net }loupe, be was determined to support the courm4oisted eat by the Chair. Lord FOLKESTONE offered himself unwillingly to the BOW, partictilarty as he differed from the opinion of the Chairin to the propriety of the course to 'be roosted. 'Bad whoever releetsiare he might feel on the occosiors, be giaa bound to state the imprealions which existed on his mind.. Where were but ace or two precedents that beasohl tan' en mind, as having at:carted slaw* had the bossier e sew. lett s? . . , 'r .- , , TFIR STATESMAN. that House, heath of Which were is grief conformily wkh the course he pointed oat in itats present instance. One of these precedents Ind theme of the Right Hon. Gentleman himself (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) last year. In that case an Hon. Member (Me. Maddocks) whoni he was happy to see in his place, and who would correct him if he should make any mistake, had submitted a brief complaint to the House. Exception was takeo to the proposition for pro ceedidg with doe Charge at that time, and . conseatteutly some (lays delay took plot., after which the lion. Member brought forward his charge again, which he prefaced with an argu mentor comidaralsie length, shelving the ;; rounds upon whith 'he founded his aceteation. The Right H on. Gentleman was then heard at length in his defence, as was also a Noble Lord (Castlereagb).who was implicated with him in the transaction which gavtrise to the charge (respecting the seat of Mr. Dick, thealtseently vacated). BothOhe Hon. Members had' had the advantage of hearing the speech of kis Hun. Friend, and after they had made their defence and withdrawn, all that remained foe. his lion. Friend to do was, to -übmit his Olotind to the House. The other precedent wAs, that of the Lnrd Advontte of Scotituld, some years since, when an Floe. Friend of his . (Mr. Whitlivend) explained the ground of his occultation in a long speeeft, reserving his motion only till that Noble Lord hod made a long speech in his own justifica tion. and withdrawn. The same course, according to all the infornmtion which helm' been able to collect, ought to tie P.oltied in the meson ease; and it was upon the thorough conviction of the propriety of that course. according to the renstio of the thing, that he had ventured to 'goo-0 it. Time Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to have ereaily misunderstood the views he had upon this question. An lion. Member . had produced a Painphieto he work of souther lima, Member, and read some passages from that Pamphlet, which he made the. ground. oil a charge of breach of the privi leget of that House ngainst the anthor.—How such passages were a violation of the privileges of that House laid not been shewn; and unless that couldhe shewn, and if the writer remained still of the SOW tatiniim as when he tondo. the pamphlet. be contended that his lion. Friend could not khotr on what ground he was charged, or in what manner to defend himself, ponicularly as he hail stet .d that, iu w'ritiug it, be did not conceive that he was infringing any privifoge of that House. If the Hon. Baronet 'had changed his opts, clhe might undoubtedly retract, °equality, or even tog; his conduct;, but without knowing in whot 'way seats-. ts, as ex premed in his work, were considered a violation' of the privileges of that House, it was actuaVy impossible for him to know what defence to make. Ile could nut sup pose it to be the object of the Right Hon. Gentleman to en trap the Hon. Baronet into the embarrassment in which the proceeding proposed must unrittestionaolv involve him. It was a fallacious argutnem of the Right 'Hon. Gentleman to soy, that if the lion. Baronet was its hear the speech of the lion. Gentleman, he would equally be entitled to hear the whole discussion. When rut Hon. Member called the often lien of the House to agrave and serious matter of charge, it was hut fair %hot the accused Member should have an oppor tunity tn. hear the grounds upon w hien the charge was !toight forward; and after defetwitig himself in his place, he re quired to withdraw without hearing any part of the subsequent discussion. The reason of site case, therefore, totre him oat in the course he recommendod; nod he must contend that the floss. Baronet was entitled to the fair advanta-e.nf hearing the grounds upon wh.cli the Hon. Manlier h ad made tile c plaint and charge against kiln.. The SPEAKER felt himself IMO in duty to the Hobse to bring to the recollection of Gentlemen, that in cases of complaints :against Members, there were two sorts of-pro eredinos resorted to by the home, Which might account for tie difference of opinion on this question. One of these pro ceedings was, when a complaint nos founded upon a Writteu paper, or other document. Oa hea that was the case, the pa per on which the complaint was founded was given in at the table, after which the Member, the object of the charge, was heard io his defence from his place, and then required to withdraw. The House, upon that, uniforaily proceeded to discuss, the merits of the charge, and came to a hind decision upon it. The other. course Will that which was followed when a Member cool., have no notice of the charge against him ; in which ease the ISlemlier bringino,forward the charge ,was bound to clear the grounds of his motion, audatate the nature of the charge. To this description of cases be con • ceived the ease of the Lord Advneate of Scotland, already alluded to by the Noble Lord, to belong. In that inothoce the- eharee was founded on a letter, which had -heea written by that Noble land, in an official character, to an individual in Scotland. The grounds of the charge were fully stated, and that Noble Lord was heard at length in his defence. The House would recollect the comments, which, after that Noble Lord had withdrawn, had been made mrthespe lee of detepce to which he hod resorted. The Noble bed, In that defence, which appeared to many Honourable Members full and sallsfietory, had pade some allosion to the pc* euliar laws and itioitutions of Scituate' ; and It must he fresh in the recollection of several Gentlemen, bow these aaasiuns had iseen commented upon, and the cosameati modtto bear npnn the question under discussion. lie took it tube the right of a Member under aroma/inn, to have due notice of the charge against him, hut not of the arguments in support or it. Iran Honourable Member was entitled to hear all the argutneuts is support of the charge before be should withdraw, then be should not withdraw till the House should have passed its vote upon the subject—a doctrine which could not for a moment he entertained. The course of proceedings laid down in the Text Books, directed, that in case of a charge founded on a a ritten document, that document should begivea in, and that the Member under occusotioa, after !mine heard in his defence, should then be required to withdraw., But in cases where the complaint should not be founded on any %rif le') document, the accused party had a right to hear the ground of the charge stated before, lie sh old he put upon his ciefetire prreinus to his withdrawing. lie felt it mu be his gut: to t 0 ,.. the House in possession of these circumstances, as ta the art:- form and established course of proceeding in all matters of coil:trial:its against in :ividual Members. Mr. LETH BRIDGE then rose to state the grounds of his charge, and declared that in doing SO he should be very short. Many reasoas, he observed. induced hiin to be brief on this occasion. The principal (me was, the little habit he was in of addressing that House. The task he had undertaken' was painful rand difficult, hut however painful or difficult it was, be felt himself called upon to bring forward the ques tion. The letter of the document was, aim ever ' so clear, the real question lay within nleillt small compass, that it would require but little abilities to pot 'it in form fur the deci non of the House. Really, front what hail fallen from the Noble Lnrd oppssite, one would have supposed, that he (Mr. Lethbridge had written a low , speech on the subject, the copy of which he had dropped from his pocket, and was found by the Noble Lord, who thought to embarrass hip by calling for a speech, nn longer In his power to make. He had, however, no object but to stote briefly the two re solutions which be meant to sropose. These. he trusted, would beadopted by the House. Tory must, if that House, wished tai save its own character, and that 'of Old Eng..: land. He spoke from the bottom of his heiset. lie wished the Honourable Baronet was -present to hear him. [A laugh, and hear, hear !j He should repeat his with, Blot the Hum. $ tronet had lint been precllided by the forms of the House from hearing a hat lie toad to say. He felt no hos tility to that Honourable Baronet; he hug much higher mo tives for his conduct on this occasion. He was convinced that if the House had any regard for its Character ..it would put restop to such proceediags as they hod witoessed of late. He had beard things stated its that !limos, which lied made tile. hair on his bead stand oneari. .tf laugh.] He could :vain e the House that the feelings of horror with which he had heard it stated, that, " in the opiniou of the publie t the repu tation at that House had n u t a leg to stool upon, had-pro duced that erect upon him. He trusted that such proceed ings would be effectually put to stop to, ant with that vie* hr shmild pr pose the following Ilesolutiouo. foe the adoption of toe House : let. Resolved, That the letter trip. I Sir Francis Burdett, and tile further argument, which was published in the paper, rolled Cohbeles Weekly Regisfer, On the 21th of this in deed, is a libellous and scandalous paper, reflecting upon the just rights and privileges of this House. td. Resolved, That Sir Franek Birdett, who suffered the above articles to he printed with his aaine, and by his autho rity, has Iseeu guilty of a violation of the privileges of this House. • Mr. AIL,' ES seconded the motion. The course of pro ceeding in this case had berg deemed unusual; that was not the fact. for it was fully justitied'iis preredenl, and he ht 'tamed. in proof of his assertion, the preredesit of Mr. Ar nim:Hail, who. st Icing back at the dra of February, IboB, nail committed to prison for u MnhiLarolTcace. This evinced the jealousy of their forefathers with relied to their 'rights aad privileges, and he trusted that. the /l o u s e of Comm o ns .if ill*); Would not be inure repot:ess of theierights and privi leges'fban the Howe of Commons of 15,4. He adjured 010 House to comdder the dangers whira might arise Nan allow-' Mg such a vehement attack upon their character and degnit . to pass unpunished. A spirit bad, lately brim raised so this coumry by.a class of permaki, few iu number, but active in. which it became the House to quell, if they wigged to preserve the estinuttiou iu which they hal hitherto been held. Mr. PONSONEY had never been inclined to chew a die-, respret. fee thesharacter of tie Home, be thought 10- . . • . subjetiregnired the gravest and most deliberate consideration tattle end that they might come to a satisfactory conclusion. The Honourable Gentleman bad caussxl a very long paper to I be read, in which he had pointed' out some objectionable parts. The House 'must, however, he aware, that to judge from some parts of a long document of the whole paper, with out comparing the variosts,.was very cliiEcult, muse especially when it aniolyedi point of law. He hoped the House would not suspect him of shrinking from the discussion when he proposed anadjgamnsent of the debate. There was another important question before the House, for which they were all prepared. • On that *subject he had some claim' to their atten tion. For the subject then before the ilsaise, he thought it probable they were not so well prepared. He was not, for his (MR part. He should therefore move, as an Amend tnent, that that debate should he adjourned till that day se'n night. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER had no in tention to oppose any adjournment of the subject, hut he was averse to its twin adjourned fur so lone a time. He thought the earliest day that is sld be named fur resuininethe debate mat desirable, as fir as it respected the House as well as the individual. The Member alluded to had been desired to wiihdra* ; he did not say bow far that circumstance, inter fersd with I :. voting on another question ; but if the law of the House would permit him to do so. which he thought 'Meta he questioned, it was not very consistent with the dig- nity of Parliament that a Member should take pair' in their proceedings who had just violated their privileges. He would, therefore, propose to the Honourable Member opposite, that the debate should be, resumed to-morrow (11 , ednesslav). of on Thursday. He thought it date to the character of the House, that the discussion of a subject so important should not be deferred longer than was necessary. tae hoped the lionourahle Gentleman would moue tomorrow—if be would not. he (the Chaucellor of the Exchequer) would move un ] Amendment to that elioct. tie concurred with the propogi thm of adjourning the debate, on the grauud of its beige ne cessary to examine carefully a* very long paper which bad been laid before them. Ile wished it adjourned till to-naor row, that they might have timb to give it a patient exami nation, nod that by that Limo Obey could do so, no one could doubt. He concluded by moving au an Aiaesadment, that the wheel :.to-morrow," should be subwituted for" that day sea 4. . -f- . WHITBREAD contended, that his Right /Immure *aid, in moving the question &' adjournment, had no beau view hut to enable the House to come to a fair and just derision, when they should be in full possession of the teboleof the coatems of the paper. 'f%. Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) must be aware that there was at this moment a most important dis cussion pending, on a subject relating pi estinally to himself, though so highly inlet - earn:, to the public.. It was not his in tention to impute to the Right Honourittle Geutleman any design to bring in a:ay other question tv interfere with the progress of that iii which he was so doeply concerned.— Moe, haat ri lie ci;ula not suppose it that Right lion. entleman's wish to rive precedence to manher question with any view to di- tenet the attention ; of that House and of the Public fro as the subject, a hich lout occupied so Mirk tile time of both. Many ilononrable Members' were anxious to .deliver their sentiancnts on that subject ; am I his Right Ho. :mumble Friend was even in possession of it's House fur the purpose of stating Isis opinion upon it. Wissn they consider ed that the present dehtee, produced no di aoht by accident alone, had been protracted to so line an hog r, as well as the short period that must necessarily intervene between the ter mination-of theakhate 'of this night, and the time of their meeting to-morrow, Gentlemen would be convinced of the impossibility that Members could conic doiaito-morrow pro perly prepated fur die discussion of this qaestion, so impor tant not alone to the Honourable Baronet ' , but to the interest of the House. ?or :limself be could say, that he was not pre pared at present to 0 iuto that digest's's)°, neither could he be prepared by to-morrow. All than was asked for was, that they might go into the discussion on the earliest day after tbey shooed be prepared to resume it with effect. That could not be thecase to-morrow. Tae debate on the Expedition could not br expected to terminate that night; or, if it should', would conclude at so late an hour as to reader it impossible fur Gentlenien to make themselves sufficiently acquainted with the cincumstaaces of tiwcase then under consideration. He should, therefore, as the debate on the Expedition could nut potsihly terminate hefure Thursday morning, propose to his Right Homotrable Friend to take . Friday instead of this day th..hueight, as the day to which the debate should be adjourn ed. The Honourable Member concluded by moving an Amendment t-i that effect. Lord FOLK 1..8 TONE had no expectatiot of an adjourn. meat being proposed, but he rejoiced at the prptiattion, as it gave mom time to Investigate the subject ; a id he *Mad .venture t040v.. mat the morethe subject was inquired into, the more who'd, it reclaim(' to the crtdit of his Hon. Friend. He imploresl the Howe attentively to consider the import asses of qtr case. He hoped they would come. (town w ith feelings Very ditTerent to those of the mover, and the seconder *of toe motion, and they would regard the question, not as inertly relating to the case of the Hon. Bart. but as inti mately connected with the fundamental principles of she Constitution and the law of the laud. The tieatletnea oppo site, helloed, would find they had not properly considered the subject. He was for adjoUrning the debate till that day se'might. Mr. STEPHEN said, the r oble Lord had furnished unan swerable arguments in favour of the amendment. Thu im portance he attached to the. subject was; sunlcient to show the improkiety of admitting of any delay.' If u subject w e r e tutoring unlawfully, anxious as he woe for the decision on that great question which concerned the character of his Right lion. Friend, yet if a man were unjustly imprisoned, would inquire into the subject immediately, when nothing e.solil he urged against such an inquiry hut that the character to' t.is Right lion, Friead would be cleared up a day or two so 'nee in consequence of it. The question not only related to their privil:•get ' but to the imprisonment of .Apr. Gale Jones; he could thetefiev in etch stew hardly agree in put ting it off at all. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had berm harshly accused of wishing to inters opt the discussion of the grand questiost then pending, that he might gain a few hours. The acrosatioa was uniust, and might have been made with the same pivity of reason had such a circumstance occurred at the eoinsneurement of the inquiry. The proposed adjooro meut of the subject till to-tanrrow was quite enough, and he donhted if it were not too much. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not ia tend troubling the House at length. though, as there was a new question, he was tint prohibited from so doing. When he was accuse:l of endeavouring to interpose a day, merely . to canoe n delay of 24 hours hi the discussion of the merits ot the Into Expedition, the House uouldamt expect him to remain silent, and he taought i 1 was in his power to make a satis factory isomer wituout going to any lens,th, as it was only ne cessary to ask the House, if be ever took any step to iater pose one day or one hour to interrupt or delay their inqui ries ? If he look wished for Doe day, could the lion. Geode ! man suppose. that had he appealed to the House solicilog such an inclidgeoce, from the situation in which the papers were that had been laid before the Howe, Wai it supposed that such an application could have been by possibility re sisted? He was far from wishing to create tiny delay: on the contrary, he was as auxious for getting through wilts the bu siuess as the Hon. Gentleman himself could be. It was un just to charge him with causing a delay. Was he the author of the libel in question? Did Iscpreyail on the Hon. Baronet to publish it on Saturday ? It was absurd to think so.. The ground no whirls hie-louLpitoooseil an Amendment was, that where a li:timer of importance was laid before them, it was not well to come tot a decision on the first reading: hut when the Noble Lord said, it was not tin the paper but on the law that they were to decide. it became a questi on ' o f suc h importance, that while it called for their g rave s t considera ' (ion, it de manded their immediate attention. It wits a goes tam on which the character, the independence, and even Me existence of that If suers depended ; and if they rouietited to postpone it one hour unoccessarily, ttiey ronseuted to helms's- pled. ou, anti surreudered their privileges and Sihat ar iu .so doing. Fur these reasons be would not withdraw his Amend ment. lle had little doubt of whist wood be the sense of the House on the subject. it haviog been so recently expr.ssed by an almost uunnisnous vote. Mr. BAT/I CRS felt that every Mesnher must regret that this qiestion had been forced upon toe ems ideration of the 'House. Me thought that whatever opinion might ix:enter tained as to the character of the pu'Aicutiou in qbeoion, the difference of one or two days could wit be of much conse quence. He thought the stdjoarnment should exte d till alter the decision upon one question respecting .the peditinn. He had read the publication, and thought that in very plow langaare; it impeached the legasity of theaten i-e of a pH vilege which was strictly conformable to the prae is • of that House. Ear his own part. he thought the privil get of that Home its much a part of the law of the land as that ustaltil• ten law which was universally recognized in oar Courts of Justice; hut on the grounds be had wrote stated, he should Tote for the adjournment to Friday. Mr. C. W If NNE referred to seseral eases wham, under ti miter circumstances, a delay of several • days was allowed before the discussion was brought on. He must contend. that It was actually intriesible for Gentlemen to he prepaieel for the discasioa to-morrow. . He was oat of theft who had voted on the foruntr uncitioo, and alight, perbape, 'whetter prepared fur this diseossitia Man inhere. Ow a Imo he eu n si. dered that only Itil) Herben had been present Ist that discus—, sipp, and looked rilianJ hith sow, and• percefveil thil nearly 401, were 'meat, he timid ant conceive bow th ose w ti e h a d • beard i t a t er a t e l :n a e r y er c 4 : i i r na sa t o h l e t t h - ed it t ' h i e e t r n d i d h g i i i ‘ s e th . il y i ps!: autahr,:t3t:pielaretreur,ePirtiesee:llll:ll:o,,di e th a a r t ly consents the adjonenmeot tu Friday. Mr. MADOOCKS spoke n few wadi on l y e , .. after which a division took ulace, when 6 4 nu ,„,,:"` N., --For the Amendment 190—Against is 115. ---- r 3 "ea , Another division took place, on an Amend e by Mr. Whitbread, that the discussion shoutr o n e t at"t4 Instead of to-morrow. The numbers were—. ' ---' aoit ~ ,i +For Mr. Whitbread's Amendment . ' 4. ... Agaiust it - - - -, In • , 2 Majority fur proceeding to-morrow (this d a y) 11 the Noble L i d ADJOURNED DEBATE ON TIIE .1 (::: F aP EDIT i oN TO THE SCHELDT. . Mr. PONSONBY said, • last night defended the Expedition to Walcheeft had stated, that one principal indu c e ment t, 6.1 fitting out of that armament, WAS the he ee ; which this country took hi the straggle alike 4, 16 tria was at that period making against th e -- stotletmleenltorrdecowiiitelictienugt,parsiseh,c dwihde,ntheheitihsetraordtha44: croachments of France. He had listened t e l t given to the Noble Lord who had been placa t e the head of that Expedition, which set yenta,iii though snitch, it was hoped, would result honk to the benefit of Austria, yet h e was to heir' mind that the force he counnanded was more p ' cularly directed against the fleet a n d aromas France. He could nut, after this, covet his I .lure by saying the ulterior objects o f th e r- -- 1 lion (as they *ere called) were secondary to assisting the Austrian cause. The opinions Noble Lord had called for, he had in no inatuite attended to. He had said, "it is true theyp e not very favourable, but they did not prohibit e s from prosecuting my design." This he (s,, Ponsouby) contended was no justification et he conduct. If the Noble Lord were about to p r . chase a house, and should take the opinion a Counsel on the subject, if the lawyers bec om e . ed should tell him that, the title was bad, Oleo be might possibly enjoy it unmulested, he wastes the Noble Lord had tun much prudence to t e e the purchase: so spoken against. The Nettle Loa would not purchase a house under such circus. stances, contrary to the advice of those he W consulted, though he had thought proper duals send'out an Expedition. But he had sent, Outs , was not obliged to consult military men, and tie a Minister was not to be bound down by their ope idol's. Very hue,. the Minister might take th 1 whole of the respunsibitity upon himself, but du. ing so, ho was botind to uct like a man of seen, and if he did not, as he hail taken that responsi. bilitly upon himself, it was the ditty of Patinae to ptinish him fur his tacitness. That Noble Lord seemed rather to coeaplain of his Noble Friend, at not having' acted (elite right in closing the evidence en his part without 'bringing forward General Brownrigg. There as no ground for that cum. plaint. His Noble Friend had made several appli. cations to General, Brownrigg, who, had always declined coming forward oil account of indisposi. lien, so that at last he was obliged to close his en. deuce withoet having examieed General Brown. rigg at the liar. The Noble Lord opposite had, 'However, produced him, and that was qtaiteasae tisfactory to the House, as if he had come forward when called upon before. What had he said iuis evidence ? Why, - he hell given it a; his opiniev, that had a landing been effected at Sinteliet by tie 3d of August, there would have been a preoaki. lity of its operations being successful. This wu nut a statement which he had received from any naval authorities; but it was an inference of his own, drawn from what had failed from suclias. thorities. The Noble Lord had said, that, fur his own part,' he was of opinion that there would have beets a probability of success, even after teat period. He - could not exactly state any period at which he had been of opinion that no chance ~ success existed, .if the operations had iwen carried en. If he could nut state that he had b-L'it of opinion at any given time, that eicry ciialice of success had vanished, he must have born Lf ()N -010% as a prospect of success remained, !eat blame was imputable to those by whom it Brien Gun. ducted—that there was a want of judgment or of enterprize to make the attempt. The Noble Lor4 who wese at Deal, superintending the Expedite *, must have known' that to arrive at Santrliet by the e 3d of August was imposeible. Ile had said drat he was not answerable fur unforeseen circuanatan ces ; but. a Minister was deeply responsible fur the success of an expedition when no adverse Wei dent 'of importance: which :might not have beer foreseen occurred. The Noble Lord had favored the House by loug citatione,of the case of Sir Joke Mordaunt's Expedition against , Rtechefutt, in which he more than insinuates a competition be. _ Os cot that and the ExpeditioN to the Seliehn- Luid Chatham, the great Lord Chatham, assn . that case the War Minister, and failed. Di No • ble Lord was now the War `Minister, iia ow failed. There was, however, some little differ ence between 1140 6:() men. Lard Chatham stood ut least as high in the opinion of the country slaw' Noble Lord. Lord Chatham bad pretensions to the confidence Of the eeople—e tench the Nob le Lord woe Id be scarc e ha r dy enoughto think bine • self entitled to. Lord Chetbarn, as a War Min i '• ter, had becu rather inure successful than the Ne: • hie Lord; and with revpect to talents, there gig!! be those who thought that Lord Chatham woe'!_ nut stiffer by a co m p a ri son ev en with the 1‘11 ) " . Lion!. But to what end had the Noble Lordmire the: solitary instance of Lord Chatham's failure? . Why select that only instance? Why nut look fir some of Vie many instances in which he had sae ceeded ? though it was to .he. admitted, that l i' comparison of a case of failure with any n'ea s ",!: of the Noble Lo'ed, to 11 7 " g, the comparison itself m wa o s re t a ha pt, be a s i t til w th AY its it was intended to be argued. Sir John Mar' flaunt was sent against Rochefort, and failed.' Antwerp is circumstanced lihe Rochefort, the . r . ,r* fore we sent an expedition to' Antwerp, and far e likewise. But there nag sonic dif&rence is th e unlotint of force employed in hale, in the Expedition egeinst ltuultefort,tlol l , send out above Bor 10,000 men. lie di d ru t , e e risk a whets army ; he slid not expose.the fob . bulb. ' Lord ( ~ .1 1: 0 : army of England to' ineiltehle destrectioc::. In the course of the commentaries of O'Neil° perhe Lord upon the evidence, be stated that that ef C 4 ' escral Browneige was the most material ' l'ff" pe ered. Al l an oth er ' delve. watitess il prowl"; w.Geti ait henti Brown lit Belk *Ph, ,rosidt• OA if I of •ical " 1 froto t hy the leet t . 'the -1• 11 'tit4tlet or l t 11 s.h.sl 'owed .l i a.itS dd. Igitt IS ifii Mxrr f 1....Un WWI Ihul t ti tyi ,Aitt wt. Gi thry tievl ill , *boo 141 whit• an'; b. ihr rs or Si• 1c I, tun~~ Otte. 11.111 I g .u.4/1 Slid 1 amoot of Nlt the Th it rim;ic trim of Ai clows Bit I form [Wirt tit.d lo is , huts men nu Bo n kiss, Beni Cad , the %it all cui exi till • ' for ' sl it o e t e e d n i•c. f :s tv iit w on n e r au di ld on t ie l ev l d i • 4,:r i m l onl i i.ow . tktieloTue l lo,theii h oegu i e. iiF:i number, ; ry , : p .iend i , e .afa i yu i t. : hwi .. eA t ei l ir r ietea r h e: nrilerliuie,_htb.„2:eyn.rittisiio ! diod p ciii : r i : ll .:sour r .r : i. .; . ! . l )STATE e rce u aad t that i t 9 the ke - En A en ia a di c : i nic e ns ss deT t ati io i ti t i n io l E s l u il F.. i t u ox r e pl u .Ev n r : :: :ll : B:thi P A rt: 3 , Ol ur t e . lll , ,," e e. , l:l . ' , :ir authentic ' - - B ro .vittio oroeeeding to-morrow (thi d u \ 211 ' Jr" .. .--.1 e t Bit Itz. o THE SCHELDT. —.wit 'still), r ''' gin' said,, Cite Noble UN i , , tv oita i c• one principal induceme nt c ("I it. II ry took iu the Straggle oiticiLllti-,t !teat lit) : th pe s r u io r t i l sr in isc a , ki w ng hen aga h i e ut h ea t.hi r d; if t r l e ::: ‘ ,;;;1 ble Lord, who had been o r, ,'" 1 iitadel a Austria, yet he was tU - 1„. " 11!) iSlit:lh":4l Expedition, which sit forth , slarlt " 3s i .}:t i e u h c w e c i r e a d taa t ti h i snn it e c t g l ah eu e l ro r . t o l i ain : , t ) s t ea t ra d t illh n f l o i c a ec i n w , l i d) jr d th l i, t g i c al.u l l i d i vil ii :i tia : h o lsre a le f s c s ts o (ei t u m hti ht nels e : °dtt r t rf. Ee li b rt s °l: : ' , s e i mil lasT . -r s ltli r e1"." : 4_. . cd ,,; .fil .. ...l l l l , :i l it cn it '4l r. : [t against the fleet and env o i] ,i - " c „"' c I 3:reerciaallitetcla)uswe.erels,heceoonptiriyontie i t -- r i en j . u . ,.. r.hat 1 , 4 1 : called for, he had in no insta ls hi d t hey Soutane( -. A l it wi•i'l e el:b"ihteina:l*drib Noble swiiatai Is( design." iti hle r l ‘ d oyi d werejtl justification tsniT:t a rcht b uaiP u yst ir u o th ° t linhee t i u y _ b°4:11 : :: : h .r..,,,k( 'toe t xi t h r y wit and should take the opinion ,( i n : i h t e l el lawyers ismobtjheaett,tiiife title 15 • then hat y enjoy it unmolested, hi Udine ite tit 161 0 lon, 19 had too much prudence to make 11l an ,; h.it spoken against. The Nettle 64 :Nose a house under such circus. 9 114.tet yto the advice of those he W a0 ,.,.:•ii gh he had thought prii.ter thus,' a Seal edition. But he had said flat! , the No! Kw, ts to consult military men, and tint nuts, ! of to be bound down by 6(.44 eihte.. uc,. the Minister might take tie • n Ms , tpunsibitity upon himself, ' but d ' "" l b givolls. lotind to act like a man of nil it t, as he hail taken that rep, ....., Lerbsaked,col ill. , .titts elf, it was the duty of Parham!' o f %Ito 1r his tacitness. '1 bat Noble Lad the Ai complain of his Noble Friend, a 'r ,t t otuite right in closing the evidence ~,,,,pica thout 'bringing forward General mitt;irn icre as no ground for that cum. li4rnre bits Friend had mad. several appli. respect ral, Brown rigg, who, had always of Aal forward oil account of indisposi. Millets slit he was obliged to close his mi. Bet th tying examined General Browu. formai The Noble Lord opposite Ind, Goliveri cmd him, and that was claim aps. House, as if ho had come forward eital"' f Lord's n before. What had he said labia it *Ai r ,- he hail given it at his open*, iwfdrist ig been effected at Sinteliet by ble UM to here would have been a primal& whie.i. Lions being successful. This wu Nest:. which he had received from any 11141 II 1; but it was an inference of his this tb pm what had' failed from seals. none I Noble Lord had said, that, fur tits,,., t was of opinion that there would to toy oability of success, even after kat 'tuts 3 Id not exactly state any period at restre :ten of opinion that no chance ,• !T.. m 4 if the operations had toren carried ' ,I .1 Id nut state that he had b-o'n of , „i 'given time, that e v ery clia,iice of i t, Alit iShell, he must have been a opt• did tit ;Peet of success remained, !kW' N 1)1.• able to those by whom it Was ion. in a st ire was a vane of judgment or I inforo ke the attempt. The Noble [seri - . ht of I, superintending the Expedittea; ' from ; it that to arrive at B:intend by tba Uwe • as imposiible. He had said tlat gut, erable fur unforeseen ciremnstie- men, ester was deeply responsible fur no tl i expedition when no adverse WM- Binh mice Which:might not have beet kiss. d. Tho Noble Lord had favored Breda ig citationi,of the case of Sir Jolla cOod pedition against , Rochefort, in }kw han insinuates a competition be.. Cad, a the ExpeditioN to the Wadi. the g the great Lord Chatham, " 111 • were r Minister, and failed. Theti~ by th ow the War 'Minister, and alw it em Wag, however, some little ditfee• Lord' 1 to:o men. Lard Chatham stood lin•re I the opinion of the country tithe 11th Lord Chatham bad pretensiest the g of the people—ultich the NON' • of c icarce hardy enough to think hito• ' Lard Lord Chatham, as a War Min hear her inure successful than the No* had rith respect to taloots, there ;Mel licab ',twist that Lord Chatham wo od bis o ~ comparison even what end had the Noble Lorden r a Nuts! the Nel lfr ever) ante of Lord Chathani's failure? . still only instance? Why not look ft r have ay instances in which he had tor. cant it nas to .b& admitted, that lbc Nate case of failure with any meas",," to th old, otd, was the best way to m asc., Lori itself wore apt, and thus perhaps 'Ms p I to be argued. Sir John Mar' opin against H,oehefurt, and railed.-- the t ainsianced like Rochefort, there. with 1 txpeditlon to Antwerp, ai d .ailed all 1 start i i i , t m er i t: loy it t t .4 l4 i s n o . a b ig ,: l h if& . . rili C r e d i id i tt l ii l . l . twig, aim t ' cum Bor 10 000 men. H e did re . r the lest ' expl tiny ; he did not capon . t ,edition egsinst '.l..Adiefort,d ideet L rid to" inositssle destraCtioa.', . thes and at the commentaries of the 1 40 0•' * . pest rldence, be stated that that! set , Was the most material * d:+ Mel ...