The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1808-05-20 00:00:00

totes)., Ile considered the Noble and Learned Lord's interruption a kind of parenthesis, and a more extraordinary one than that mile by the Noble and Learned Lord ou the %Voolsack— bis was a parenthesis within ins own specch, but the Chief Justice's was a parenthesis in the speech of another person.-14 lamgh.)— With respect to the measure now before their Lordships, it particularly made an dis tinctiOn Lordship s , ern the rich and the poor. if a poor sewn was uppreliended, he might not he able to Ana sureties, and then he must go to prison, and there he might, though innocent, suffer more tin:intim imprisonment, than, if he were guilty. the Court of King's Bench would order hint to suffer days. Besides every man was liable to be, in this manner, rust iuto prison, upon the slightest suspi don, and for the most trifling Offence. Ile would trouble their Lordships with an instance where pu- Mslitrient the most serious might, under this ]fill, he infieted fist conduct searcei) amounting to an offence. There was a man, who, some yeurs.ago, Made a great pot tical fermentation in this conntr?,.. He meant the noted John Wakes. One night, in tlhe streets of London, there Were two link-heys, sae of whom picked np a baud-bill, and looking at it. (his name being said to his comrade, " Jaek, tell us what is this, for, you know, 1 can't read." When Jack was about to look ut it, op Caine one of those men who were busied in pre venting the dispersion of inflammatory who, seeing this paper in the boy's possession, took it frees hinsoind haring read it, asked him how it come into his hands? The boy replier;, I.e dill not know *here it ranee from, but his brother Win put it into his hands. lYpon this MU was laid hold of, and carried before a Magistrate, who, speaking in his Israel cm:sequential manner, asked him how he came to circulate surh papers ? Mil did not un- Armband the term eireOisie, and gave no answer. Says the Magistrate, " What are you?"—" Please your Worship, I'm what they call. an antiministerial writer."—" You rogue, why you have before said yen amid not read - , and now you call yourself a writer."—" Yes, please your Worship, I'm one that writes 2.5 upon Lord's coaches." His Lonl ship conjured that House to contemplate, that given such an instance as that which he haul just mentioned, might by this &II aneL: sad cruel punishment. He thought all the poor people of teal would be hostile to it, so would the people of. if they w •re holiest; none could be i.l faitaar ..: Oast hall, except men of pro party without principle. He would contend, that at wit, in violation of those laws which had been held sacred in ancient times, which bud been the fritintlatiou of our glory and prosperity, and the in fringement of which ought to be viewed with ex tretne jealousy in the part of that House. Lord Ifoeiuto intimated his wish to hear the arguinents iu favour of that Bill, and particularly from the !Noble and Learned Lord (Ellenbo rough.) Lord Eta.rnoosooom said, he mould not deem it necessary to urge any argument in favour n the Bill, until be heard some argument against it. Lord HOLLAND then stated, that he felt Inane' Stench disposed to give the utmost attention to the Bill ander their l.ordships' consideration. For this purpose lie had thought it his duty to make himself as muds as possible acquainted with its true neture and purport, at the seine time he fully expected the Noble and Learned Lord to hare stated those arguments which might have tended to remove the objections he at that moment enter tained concerni n g the proposed alteration in the juthiptudeare of this country. But a. those argu ments were refused him, he must, with the know ledge he possessed, proceed to give his opinion up on a Bill, which, he must agree with his Noble Friend, was oat of the greatest importance. His Lordship here eoinmented with the greatest ability upon the inducement which appeared to hare produced the measure now in question. By former Acts of the present reign, it was deemed nace..sary to alter the law, and make it more sum mary in regard to revenue eases. Now it was upon this conveniency that the present Kin was sub mitted to that House for its approbation. But welsh) airy man argue, that, because iu rases re specting the revenue, where, for the sake of snaking the dialuniest part of the community contribute their portion penally with the honest, and where sows extra..irdilry regulations had been adapted. totally derogatory to the common law of the land ; therefore, merely on the ground of carrel:knee, we were to hriug thi. principle into our general jaris proodence ? It would lead to 14 most dangerous in aeration upon the constitution. He was surprised that those Noble Lords who were, from time to time. making eateries against the smallest innova tions which affected any part of the Prerogative, should not feel an anxiety in apposing this mea sure, which had a tendency to subvert our most sacred rights. There were some Noble Lords, who, if a reversionary pension were to be, prevented in f,titure. immediately took the alarm. and then they could see innovation with all its horrors ; there would then be an end, in their opi nion. of the House of Lords and Commons.— Although he aid not accord with those who thought there never should be alteration, yet, in the present instance, so creivineed was lie of the great importance of preserving the common law of the land from being entrenched upon, that as long as he hail a tall 4. or a hand to raise, he wasild in that House eudeavour to prevent its being violated ; it was an old and venerable sanctuary, in which were deposited all our valuable rights and liberties 10 a Frye people. it would, become Noble and Learned Lords not to tamper with the law, but to pay pro- per respect to a hat ntipenrcil in the writings of the snort eminent autlinrs. Nlatthew Ilale, in par ticular, had observed, that the punishment made be a Jun , sad the 'trial liv Indictment, were a more wfr amid legal mode of administering jostler ; and ether writer. cow:tures! with Sir Matthew, that th e g ii ,,4e or trial by Infennntiou was dime:crams to the Fla . gra of the subject. and was to he a ateti..d over yet' jealous eve. He thought their Loolships blil do well to ronsider die lawir as well as the ri L ts, soul tbis Bill tended certainly to draw an iaritlioas distinction ; ante insisted in th e most-rho- 'pima and powerful language, aunt it was ltalialg il l 4l 441114 - 11 power in the 1111111114 of carer* aeopointed by the Crown, that melee might apply it afterward. to sets of ti noisy and oppression, and that it w a * reales it TVII9III which one day might talkies; and bring aLont the destruction of the whole poli- tical cur pone Mu. Lora ELLENUOROU O II contended, that the Bill would not n i erute with increaieti ameritty upon the :subject, but, on the coutrar):, that it was of a milder natiare tt.ati the rteoguised law of the land in criminal discs. If a bill of indictment were found by a grand jury against an innocent party, there were many difficulties in the wuy of redress. The Malicious person preferring it was examined in private before the grand jury, and they being bound to secrecy, by their oaths, could not, by a diselowure of the evidence, assist Inns in his suit against the party by whom he was injured; but by the mode now proposed, he would not labour under this dissolvautage, as he would have ac test to the affidavits ou which the process was grounded ; whether is the case of au informa tion by the Attorney-Geueral, or a warrant issued by •st Judge of the Court of King's Bench. The *lips of a Grand Juror, finding the bill, were sealed, but an Attorney-General, who laboured under no .itch restraint, would be proud to hare it in his power to assist injured innocence. He saw nothing unconstitutioruil, or tending iu the least degree to eutrench upon the liberty of the subject, in the measure. Every law that required something new to be dune or omitted, was no doubt an inuovation, the wisest law must be liable to that objection ; but it did not therefore follow that it must be uncon stitutional. The severity of trying a man in his absence, upon which the principal stress was laid, and to which the weight of the objection, in a constitutional point of view, was attached, did tint really exist, and could not be entertaiuol, ex cept in consequence of inisunilerstanding the Bill. In all cases, not being treason or felony, nothing is more common than for the party to appear only on Its trial by Attorney. It seldom happens, as must be well known to every person conversant with the practice of courts of justice, that the party indicted for a mnidtmeanour is personally present at his trial. Now the present Bill excepts cases of treason and felony, and the party charged with minor oftener* would sutler no greater severity on his trial than de fendants generally d! , iweorditur to the present prac tice. As to the I.i•-ction, that the process might be sinned. ._:k.: that notice upon the gaoler ought not to be sutiicieut, he did not see any weight _ _ :a it. It would be the duty of those who had the sidtinuistr4tion of the law, to protect it, as far a, they could, from abuse; it was not to be expected that we could arrive at perfection. Lord ERSKINE said, that by the law of the land, as it originally stood, no man could be held to bail, in cases not treason or felony, until an indict ment was found, and even then a magistrate had no right to hold him to hail unless he had jurisdic tion of the offence. This must be well kuowu to the Learned Lords who supported the Bill, as the constitutional law of the country. The power of the Attorney-General to proceed by informatidi, with out any reference to a Grand Jury, was only ex ercised in cases of public libel, or breach of the peace. It was also exercised under certain rules and restrictions, by winch it was guarded from abuse ; but to proceed in the same way on all private libels and constructive breaches of the peace, was a very different case, and must necessarily produce much hardship to individuals. The house laws were an i nom at ion 111)011 the constitution, and at the time of their adoption were strongly opposed, as entrench ing upon the liberty of the subject. It was alleged, in the Preamble of the Bill, that from the experi ence of their beneficial effects, it was expedient to extend them to other cases ; but he did not consider that a sufficient ground for the alteration of the established system of jurisprudence. There never was a period when the people submitted to great privations for the preservation of their laws and liberties with more chearfulitess than the present, and therefore nothing should be introduced unne cessarily that had even the semblance of severity at restraint upon those liberties. Unless then a very strong case was made out—unless there was some important defect that called for a remedy, or some great evil to be guarded against, he should not he disposed to extend the principle of the Ex uma Lass to the mild system of our jurisprudence. Lord ELDON having left the woolsack, observed, that though it might not he fit that the Bill should pass whole and entire in its present shape, that was no reason why it should not go into a Committee. Parts of it might be objectionable—but if, as ap peared by the objections, it contained ■ great deal of good, that was a reason for its going into a l'ommittee, in which it might be moulded so as to reject the bad, and retain all that was admitted to be beneficial. Among the objectionable parts might probably be the Preamble, which lie con fessed was not worded with as much accuracy as he could wish, in order to convey his meaning. The Preamble says, that " whereas the provisions of certain acts, in certain eases, relating to the pub lic revenue, have been found beneficial, and it is expedient to extend the same to other eases." Now this has been argued upon as if it said that these acts having been found beneficial, it is therefore expedient to extend them in the manner proposed ; , but that was a wrong construction. The Preamble only meant that the principle being found be:flea , cial in the revenue laws, there was a presumption that it was a good one. He would be as far as any ins• from wishing to introduce say severity into the present system of jurisprudenct —but he could not perceive any thing of that tendency in the present Bill. Earl Stattuotot in explanation said, he gave the Noble and Learned Lord (Eldon) vinegar ou a late night, but he would now Rive him honey of his own laugh.)---Fle then proceeded to state that the doctrine mentioned by the Learned Lord was contrary to some oriels judicial decisions. Tke Earl of 11.1EDSIWALL contended that the Preamble meant that the principle being found be neficial in the excise laws, it was there Are bene ficial to extend it to the cases proposed. No laugtia4e, he cmild more dearly express this meatiiii. and it world bear no other construc tion. Flis Lordship then proceeded to argue, with hi. usual force, nalllikt the e‘tension of the excise law' , to the other pa is of the system of on/ jowls ,iruiletier, when there was no apparent necessity- for siuv thatle. Earl ST iNHOrE, in e planation, that l'er Leareard Lord tElJois; had admitted the Bid to I defective ; and that, therefore, rival his toga otattrutuit, it ought tv Le tej,:t.Lud. Lord li.ott.vsn eonfoviel thit part of his ob. jections had been removal by tier explanation that had taken piece. lie had'emweited that the party might 1w tried in his absence, and aithout notice cf the proceedin 3 . aipiinst him, but if he was in error, then his objection so far was done away.— This, however, shewed the necessity of full and mature discussion, when important measures of this kind were brought forward; anti he trusted. if this Bill was to pass, that care would be taken to tnake it clear and explicit, and that no thing should be left %live and uncertain upon the point to which he had alluded. Still, however, as lie objected to the principle of the extension of the Revenue Laws to other cities, he should give his decided negative against the second readiwt, Lord F.t.uo:: answered, that the Noble Lord was certainly in error, O% by the Dili the party could not he tried . without notice. The Question Iming now called for, the House divided on the motion for the second reading, Contents. Noa-cootnuts .. • Majority is &roar of the 211 reading.... to The Bill was then rued a Ibt coati Hine, and or dered to iw eoutititited. Adjourned at Half-past Ten o'CloeL:. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. !IT'Lnen presentei a Petition final certain Freeholders of the Comity of &OM 'pion the Distillery Iteport.--Laid cue the Table: The Court of Seniors Sleek Bill woe read . a tbird time end peserd ?Ir. STLGirs Boy Abe bran:lit op a Dill for tbe Preece ration of Timber its the New Forest —Rcad a Mitt, and or- dered to be rend a seemed time to-morrow. A person from the Court of Kiag's Bench presented a Copy of the Record of the trial of the cause, Pesten aad others r. Sir Hie Pophaus—lmid upon the Table, and upon the. motion of Mr. 11 . ordered to be primed. Mt. I.v deferred his intended motion relative to Carina )lertial till Monday. The LORD Arieor eve of SCCTLAND lar.m;lit up the Repoli of the Scotch Judges' Aaanity Bill, Is hirli was read and agreed to, and thi Bill ordered to be read a third tire. POOR'S LAWS. Colonel STANLEY moved the second reading of the Bill, for making certain alterations as to settle ments iu the Poor Laws. In doing ,o, the I lonour able Gentleman stated, that 'us the law stood a settlement could not be obtained by any person who did not rent a house or land to the amount of 101. a year ; the object of the Bill was to raise that sum to 201. and also to suable Magistrates to pass Irish and Scotch paupers into their own parishes. Upon the motion being put from the Chair, • Mr. CURWEIIII rose, and opposed the measure, as he thought it would tend to increase the burdens upon the public, to an alarming degree. With re gard tv that part which related to passing Irish and Scotch pau;iers to their own parishes, he enter tained great doubts, both as to it+ justice and its policy. It could not be deemed either jest or po litic to send away, as paupers or vagrants, men who had spent perhaps almost the whole of their lives, in industry and for the benefit of society, in this country, to parishes in another, where they were likely to be perfect strangers. He thonght, that if there were additional support given to the friendly societies already established, he believed they would ••• the poor animated with a spirit of independence. But, indeed, he thought it was necessary the coun try should look to a revision of the whole system of' Poor Laws, and not make any partial alteration. He should, upon these principles, move as an amendment," That the second reading of this Dill should be put off to this day six months." Mr. Luca Raw'. maid, that although the Hon. Gentlemen upon the opposite side of the House had formerly failed in bniiging forward a general and practicable system of Poor I.aws, it by no means followed that no particular alteration should be made upon the existing laws. Although he appihved of the first clause of this Bill, he did not, however, approve of the second. Ile approval of that part of the Bill which fixed the settlement of bastard children upon that parish which was their mother's. This could not he complained of, as he believed it would lie principally a local matter of regulation, as the greatest part of bastard children was begotten in manufacturing towns. 11'ith re spect to the passing of Irish and Scotch paupers to the parishes, in their own c-ountries, front which they came, it was impossible that the House could entertain it, as it was attended with the greatest injustice. As to the raising the sum by ;hick a settlement was to be acquired from 101. to 201. it was merely chimerical, as it would rather teed to increase the number of paupers and vagrants. lie thought that souse partial taneudineirts and im provements might be wade upon the Poor Laws, but he conlii not approve of every part of the pre seut plan proposed in this Bill. Mr. DAVIE' , GIDDY spoke against the Poor Laws in general, oust thought they Wight to he to tally repealed. He partivulady ob j ected to the last part of the bill, but thought that, even as a partial measure, it inigfst be considerably amended and altered in the Cututnittee. Mr. lloaxEß differed from the but Hon. Gen tleman, in thinking that the first clause of the Bill was as exceptionable as the last part of it. It was not merely an alteration of the numerical num bers, as to the amount required for establishing a settlement, but it was an alteration of the law in another very material particular. By the law at present, the mere possession of a tenement or piece of land, by legal title, to the amount of lul. a-year, was enough to establi.di the right of settlement ; but by the present alteration, neither the puyinent of rent, nor the occupation be servants, was to place a man in the situation of' beisig deemed the pos sessor; nothing but his personal occupation was to do so. This would naturally introduce a new field of litigation altogether, .and putting persons who had legal settlements actually upon the foot ing of vagrants. As to the removal of persons who had originally come from other parts of the UMted Kingdom, and spent most of their lives in this country, lie thou ht it would be mceedingly un just and prejudicial to return them back upon their fanner parishes, where they would be considered as vagrants. Cpwuthesegrounds. he thought the measure totally objectiouable, and should there fore vote for the ameuslment. Svmutt. RoIIIIi.Y thought this Bill so ob jectionahle, that he should oppose every part of it. It appeared to bins, that the first clause of it, iv iccil had beta deemed by some the least obj..:ctioaahh, *Do the moot objection:able, I..crrteed the 11,f. ticulty of acquire 4 setOcitic..t... There Lad Lcw no difference of opinion iiinou2:4 legal men npoli tins subject. 11austield, Judge 810ck4t0,,, Doctor Burn, others, a‘il united in that there never was a more tnistlilevous ss Ntelll (L.; that which excluded persons from becoming en titled to relief as paupers in the parishes where ti„ ) lived. That law of settlement was highly rim's, which transferred a person for relief from the parish where lie hail long re si ded, to one where 1. , was an entire stranger. life really thought thin law could have been suggested, it,t would be at tended with more pernicious effects. The moment a rise in provisions involved an individual cf narrow circumstances in difficulties that rendered relief necessary, theta WWI he to be immediately tre w s ferried, with his unfortunate family, to a pariah where they were utter strungcni, and would natu rally become indolent and burdensome pen ile ,, instead of being useful members g society, a , they were Infore. Mr. GRAHAM supported the Bill, and said, tint within these few years, in some parishes no less than 10,0001. had been paid to Scotch and hi paupers. This was surely a great hardship alson England. I%lol' anneats said, he had had *cession to trom Me the lionise formerly with stating his sentiment* so fully upon the Law of Settlements, that he n eed say little more than that he concurred with his Right lion. Friend near him (Sir Samuel Romilli in what he had stated. It Pleased him much i., tind, that the general opinion of the House had always been witti him upon this subject. The pi.. sent Laws of Settlement imposed the most grievous burdens upon thespezle t ever could be cotw celesta. and encouraas he had been, he certsiii. ly should persevere in making further attempts ts *alter and amend them. Tie could not agree alit what was proposed by the present Bill. With 1-". gard to what WIN said as to bastards, it was ex. ei - tionable,in the extreme ; and as to the litter No. that of wilding persons as exiles into parishes where they were totally unknOwn, it would be most grievous and unjust, as the English themselves, were not so used either in Scotland or Ireltual. The Scotch and Irish came to this country to be nefit the En;lish by their ingenuity and industrious labour ; and surely it could not be deemed a btu den, when they were in distress, that we should re ceive them with open arms, as they did the Eu bah, when in liketircumstances. • •• . Mr. Canaan also agreed as to the hardship it would be inflicting upon the Irish and Scott h, after they had spent most of their Bass in the ma uufactones of England, to send them back to their former parishes, where they lead its claim for relief. Colonel Sr*tu.nv said, lie was fully sensible of many of the arguments that had been used aping the measure, but still he thought himself justiil,l i in taking the sense of the House upon t, as he thought the Bill might be much amended in ti“.. Committee. - . air ISOBEIT Peru said, he came frorri'n 111A1:0- facturiug part of the country. and he was sensili!,‘ that the circumstances of the times rendered sows alteration of the Poor Laws necessary. He thou gl,l that the 11 Ought to be entertained, as some at. teration ought undoubtedly to take phwc apts:i the law of settlement. It was wisely juaged, that a man who possessed land or a house of Om value of ltd. a year should have a settlement in that parish where it was situated ; but the times bent( now much altered, rendered some change in ti particular absolutely necessary. Ile therefor.: should wish, that the Bill should be discussed Amended in st Cominittep. Strangers were then orthlred to withdraw, and i division took place upon the Amendment, wa there appeared— /41mm it For it .... 114 Sfajovity is favour of the /d reading 0.1 l'pon our return to the Caller%% the Bill t rontiniiinK the Coiomissioners of Military burn was brought up, mill a first, and ordered to Li. re a second tune to-morrow. INDIA PAPERS. Dining our exelLiOlfrom the Gallery, cer.s voluurit 444444 s doeuments, relative to the atiltir. India, laid been presented to the 'louse, and I, upon the Testae. DuNo.ss rose, and observed, that an I Bart. opposite, h►d, upon a former oce • • moved for the printing of some papers rJat. : the saitir. %abject. o inch were .err well as those now prescnterl. beffgpsl s-•••., remark, that both the time and the • printing such a IllAset of papers would be very gee: and, therefor..., be should sugqest, that such ease, settle selection should he wade of those d contents thist were absolutcly ueeessnry. Sir JOHN AN4IeIUTHEA said, he believi.d t! were on« uo kss than 509,0uu pages of pn:3e.• ktive to the affairs of India. the priuting of he believed, would cost no less than 14,6u0 . 15,04101. Ile would wish to knew what u would be of, were they actually printed ? Mr. 11,ANKEs observed, that the ex printing papers, orderei by Parbaice during the last year, greatly accuiriclatro. atuouuted to no less than .:i.,00411. lie the! thought that ativ aJditioit v• such a hori.:i be carefully avoided iu all cases where it cou. be 'hewn to be absolutely necessary. Hr t:.. that art ry Member a ha . called for the pror4 of papers, should state to the House whr'+ not he intended to found any motion upon , and what particular parts of them were con with such intended motion, or that a Com+. should Le appointed to determine a hat &cu.' , were necessary to be pnuted. WsurnasAo stated, that he never col Itt it he said, that the House of Commons y,,e' be stopped in their proceedings in tusking t:log against any individuals, merely on second: limiting unnecessary documents.. When they , etriererl the charges that had been stAted to relative to the Nabob of Oude and the Nabs thc Carnutic, he wis *ere no one could irrudgr expen,e incurred iu bringing such ofieuces the (I! ; c4iisimi a.scl ihrestigation of tilt Hon Upon this neeasinn. he s hould he drirons the pipers no , * I t il l nt..w the he pr.( or at all events that a be I C-.•41111:•;.1 i.e- ' i•t IL , OUi ~~:~r, Jiirce wit:4 th , .: Cer.tl,l:ll,l las to Ge Ac hi