The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-02-14 00:00:00

I 1 1 ) t . , !: . , . 11 A . i 1 I 1 • . 4 /. 6 1 4 • i' l 1 • ,• • • .• 4 . • .!, ~ f .. 4 , ! • . . • . . • . . ' • • . . . , .• , J , , • . .. 1 . 4 . . of 11, t . . 4 .1 \ . 4 I . I ‘. . ~ . . ; ~ ':::: :. , 1 1 .::. :. I, .!. , r I I ' :t• ii r 1, it . • • which was before every body else, and therefore never gave opposition to such a motion. The papers be fore the House at present came down to the end of Mr. Erskine's mission. To that Gentleman had sue. seeded as Ambassador to America Mr. Jackson, who had not carried en`the negociations between the two countries in such a manner as to conciliate America. So far from it, after he had been there a short time an open rupture broke out, and the weal of that Minis ter was theconsequence. He would not move for the correspondence between Mr. Jackson and the American Government, as that business was goue by, and he had nrewish to revive it, as to recal it to me mory Auld do no good. To Mr. Jackson, after a. long time, succeeded Mr. Foster. The mission of Mr. Foster had commenced inauspiciously, and in pro. 'muting it, he had not given things an auspicious turn ; and it had at length terminated most unfor tunately for both countries, He felt himself com -pelled to say, that nefflier the instructions nor the conduct of Mr. Foster had had the effect long de- I sired; that of conciliating America. There was another correspondence of which he had to speak, he meant the correspondence between the Marquis' Wellesley and Mr. Pinkney. That correspondence ! bad commenced in January,• 1800, and terminated' in February last year, on Mr. Piukney's quitting the country. Mr. Pinkney was a nran of sound sense, and had uniformly appeared to be actuated by a sincere desire to conciliate the Government of this country. lle,had always approached Ministers with proper diplomatic deference, and with the pro. I per feelings of an enlightened statesman. _Firm to , ‘ kis purpose, yet conciliating in his manner s he had • never rite,' is point of time. A want of punctual*. ly was in no instance to be charged to bins, and the mode in which he had endeavoured to accomplish I theobject of his mission, was in every respect en- I titled to praise. But he was very much afraid that Pinkney had net been treated with the same •puuctilious respect which had marked the deport ment of that Gentleman towards the English Minis ters. At the time the corresp ondence between the .Marquis Wellesley and Mr. Pinkney commenced, it was known that there was a great soreness in Artie sic*" in consequence of what • had Occurred in the course of the mission of Mr. Jackson. The first let ter which Mr. Pinkney bad occasion to *rite to Lord Wellesley, was on the cue of America, with a reference to the occurrences alluded to. On the subject of the pendingpegociations, it was known there was a remarkable sensibility in America as to the parties by whotp they were to be eonductcd.— After the termination of Mr. Erskine's mission, and 'he unfortunate (as it proved) substitution of Mr. Jackson, it might have been hoped that the English Government would have been particularly careful that no want.of decorum should give a new offence. What was the conduct of Ministers? Why, on the ' Jan. 1109, Mr. Pinkney wrote on the subject of appointing a new Minister to America, and to this letter no answer was given by the English Govern. vont till the 14th March. On this subject Mr. Pinkney, in his'dispatches, had only observed—" I was prepared to expect some delay, but I did not mtpect a delay like this." Lord Wellesley gave an answer on this subject on the 14th March. On the 15th, Mr. Pinkney wrote again to Lord Wellesley en the subject of the English system of blockade, a *abject most interesting to America. After waiting more than a fortnight, an answer was retoraed to this on the% of the following month. On the 30th of April, be (Mr. Pinkney) wrote again on the sub-1 ject of the Berlin and Milan Decrees, but to this letter he received no answer. On the 3d of May,' Mr. Pinkney wrote to Lord Wellesley, complaining of the practico of forging ships' papers in London, and of making an open traffic of them. A traffic more infamous and more dishonourable could not es ist, and consequently a more serious and a more se tem charge could not be made against any govern went. Yet notwithstanding all this, to Mr. Pink- ' nay's communication on the subject no answer was returned. On the 9.3 d of June, Mr. Pinkney wrote ! again, referring to his letter on the 30th of 'April on the subject of the Berlin and Milan Decrees, to which no answer had been returned. To this letter ! no answer was given. On the 7th of July, Mr. Pinkney wrote again on the subject of the delay in appointing a Minister. To this letter no official an swer was returned. A personal communication as it was called (a private note) was all the notice taken of it. On the Bth of Aug ust , Mr. Pinkney wrote ogle, referring to his ( M r, P.'s) letters of the 30tht of April and 23t1 of June, on the subject of the Berlin and Milan Decrees, requesting an answer, lout to this letter also no answer was returned. On !: the 23d of July he wrote again, and again no answer i was returned. On the 15th of August he wrote . again on the subject of the revocation of the Berlin and Milan Decrees, and demanding an answer.. To , this letter an answer was returned on the 31st of the !' same month. On the 15th of September he wrote" again to Load Wellesley, .on the subject of the hl ade of Elsineur by Sir James Saunterer, and on the circumstance of American seamen having been taken out of certain vessels. On December G, he received an answer to this *letter, as far as it related to the blockade, saying nothing on the subject of Ameri ean seamen taken out of 'v essels . With I re spect to them, nothing appea to have been done by Government, but they were afterwards released t hy the Admiralty. Nothing bad ever excited his surprise so much as the cosidint of Ministers at this • .period of the negociation. It was known to the whole worW, that one elf the most difficult points to be adjusted between Great Britain and America, was . that relating to the seizure of American seamen.— Surely, then, when an opportunity offered of doing that which America wished, and which Ministers admitted to be no more than justice, it might have been expected that they would eagerly embrace it, with a view of conciliating America. This might ' surely have been expected from a Minister, 'who knew how fetal to this country a rapture with Ame. rica must prove. This, however, was not done, 4 though, by the bye, Mr. Pinkney was apprised of the circumstance of the American cairns being milted to be just, yet, instead of eagerly embnaking such an opportunity to conciliate, an answer was Coldly and reluctantly given, and the Secretary of State for the Foreign Departmint could not trouble . himself to put pen to paper on the subject, till a very considerable period had elapsed. On the 21st day ag,Scpseusber, Mr. Pinkney wrote again,' jt. 111 t s4rATEsMAN. easeo-ra-- -- A l ooflea was extremely popular. lie looked back to that contest in which she had been engaged with this country, with reverence and admiration for America. That contest had terminated as all such contests should terminate. Ile felt no jealousy of the prosperity of America, convinced as he was, that With proper management here, the snore she flourish ed, the more would this country flourish. He had seen nothing after all that had been said that could be looked upon as injustice on the part of America. tie hadhearti a very great outcry against her injus tice, but he had seen none of it. lie had heard it trumpeted forth long ago; that America was engaged iti secret hostility against this couutry,b•t he. JO not believe, it. Ile believed that America, placed in the extraordinary situation in which she had stood, that of the only neutral in the world, had done as every , 1 other power would, and endeavoured to avail herself 1 of all the • advantages of her situation. Ile thought that . England had been unjust to America, and had required that of her which it was impossible for her. to achieve. He thought France had acted unjustly . to her, and required that of her which it was impos. i • sible she could achieve. Placed in this situation, she 1 endeavoured, as long as she could, to preserve her ! . independence by defensive operations. The Non-' Importation Act had then been enacted, and after- I wards the Non-Intercourse Act. In the measures she had adopted; it did not appear to him that there jwas. partiality towards France, or injustice towards i England ; but he thought the Government of Francs had been wise enough to recede from their measures;., : and thus gained advantages which we denied our- 1 selves. The bill spoken of as likely to pass, would, ' he thought, if- passed, be likely to five umbrage to 1 ?ranee, and it wa; the duty of the English Govern. ment to endeavour, by conciliation, to avail them-I 1 selves of any difference that might arise between America and France. He did not know that any I thing that he could say in addition to what he had offered, would be likely to influence the House more than what he had already advanced : he should, !therefore conclude; and, whatever might be the fate of his motion, he should feel the satisfaction which had consoled him on other occasions, however he had failed of gaining the object he had in view, that satis faction arising from a conscientiousness of having discharged his duty. Ile concluded by moving, " That an Address be presented to his Royal Highness tbe Prince Regent, praying, that to would be pleased to order co pies of ail the correspondence which had taken _place between Its Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Allows aed the American Minister, or Charge d'Affaires, resident its England, from Jan. I, 1810, up to ' the latest period, together With all documents referred to in that correspondence, as also Copies of the correspondence between Mr. Foster and air. lluuree, together with the documents referred to therein." Mr. STEPHEN' agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that it would not be wise to discuss the Orders in Council at that time ; but while he was glad that he had delivered him from the necessity of entering into the question of their justice and policy, he was sorry that he should have thought it not inconsistent to jump from the question, to the general conclusion that the conduct of the English Government towards America was wrong. From this unfair statement (he would call it so) of the Hon. Gentleman, he felt himself entangled in a dilemma. If he went into the policy and the justice of the Orders in Council, and ;if the conduct of the English Government towards America, he should he accused of provoking a dis 4•CUSlion, Which it was desirable to avoid; while, on .the other hand, if he did not go into them, it was im possible to do justice to what he believed to be the strongest casethat,ever one country had against ano ther. He would take what he thought the safet course, and not enter into the evidence. He would not, enter upon it, because he hoped they would be deli vered from the necessity of imparting to that House what had passed on so delicate a subject. With this feeling he should content himself with general asser tion, as the Hon. Gentleman had done, and he would declare that there never was a charge more un founded than that which they had just heard, of the' conduct of this country being unjust towards Ann- . rice. On the contrite!, nothing. but the strongest aversion to a war could justify the English Govetat ment in the strong anxiety they bad evinced, and the almost humiliating forbearance, which had marked , their conduct throughout the negociations, to :Kok! , that which the Hon. Gentleman had stated, but which.' he (Mr. Stephen) did not feel would be so fatal to this country. He questioned not whether we would go to war with America,. bit whether or not America would go to war with us.. Oat this subject he did not wish to speak, as its discussion could lead to nothing of good ; but if the Hon. Gentleman would force the question to be agitated, as he could if he pleased, he (Mr. Stephen) would pledge himself to he there, and to fellow him through the whole sub ject. Tilt then, to what had bean ackvanced, he should only oppose a general negative. The Orders iu Council were nocunjust, nor even impolitic, and he denied that the people of America, 'or the merchants of this country, looked upon them as having been so injurious to tradeiLtioy, had .110 on said to ,be.. If. they did do so, they must have forgotten all that had passed in that House en the subject, and go in the 'face of evidence whieh proved to demonstration that such was not the fact. With respect to . what had anihilate ferring to his letters of the 30th of April, 3d L ' June, and Bth of August*, on the subject of the Bev lin and Milan Decrees, and asking an answer. To this no satisfactory answer was given. Letters dated December 8 and December 10 were written, and ' ;,..thole leading tct no satigagtory reselt, Mt. Pinkney demanded his aidleticerbf leave . A passage in the l Speech of the Prince Regent to Parliament, which appeared at a period. net very remote from that last alluded to on' the subject of America, raised new Itninfrofham multalfiettentlnatlon of the peatdlog tic ' gociationc The paragraph, though in itself very Nei . vocal, merely stating that discussions were going . on, aml that every dieposition existed to conciliate Ame-. rico, consistently with the honour end interests of this l countre, 'raised great hoPesAliat the negociation was i going on in a way from *filch there Wakevery reason Ito hope the - isseor - would be 'favourable; no such thing ; at that time Mr.' Pinkney . had demanded ' his audience of' leave, and the negociatious• ate i America were at an end. The negociations had at that period terminated, and they were -resumed, and not continued, when Mr. Foster was sent from this country.—After this, little appeared to have been done towards effecting the impor i tent objects which both Governments professed Ito have in *tie*, from the correspondence be, tweets Mr. Foster and the American Government, which was then on the table before him. It had I been hoped when Mr. Foster was sent out, that he I had new instructions, but on his arrival in America, I !it was found that he only went to offer whet had been previously rejected, and to re-state what bad often before been stated in vain, and thus his massless I was only productive of disappointment: He pun. . 1 posely abstained. from a discussion of the policy of 1 the Orders in. Council. Whether they were good lor bad, and whether the Berlin and Milan Decrees ' were or were not - repealed, were other questions which would in a few days be brought before that House by an Honourable Friend of his, when he hoped an attendance more proportioned to the im portance of the subject would be given. RE would confine himself to asking for that which was neces sary to the llouse preparatory to their entering into the subject which lion. Friend would bring for. f ward. lie only called for that which was necessary to- a decision, which, as he thought, must soon be I formed on linisters, who, in his opinion, had brought this country to the verge of a war with Ame rica. The last letter which had passed between Mr. Foster and Mr. Munroe, which had been published, was dated October 31, 1811, and he begged to be understOod to ask for nothing which had not been printed. The Message of the President was sent to Congress on the sth of November following, and on the 10th, a Committee on Foreign Relatious made a report of an unfavourable nature to this country, and there was no doubt but it was the feel ing of America, that the mission of Mr. Foster had been totally ineffectual, and was in point of fact ter minated. Under those circumstances his bumble motion would only call for what had here already been made public. Ile was sorry to say it, but the correspon dence between the twd Governments was so vo luininous, and the novelty was so completely worn off, that to' those who were most deeplX interested in the question of peace or war between the two countries, it must be very tiresome to read, and in consequence of that, he was afraid but few gate the attention it merited. He did not mean to throw any reflection on the talents of the correspondents on either side, as when a correspondence had been carried on for years on the same subject, it was to tally impossible to make it otherwise than palling.— , On the important question of peace or war withAme rice, the (louse was not called upon to decide that night ; he only called upon them to demand that in- formation which could alone enable them to decide on that great question. They could not properly de ; cido on it without having the papers for which he.call ed to refer to on their table. However little might be felt on this subject in that House, out of doors its importance was well known, and no small iuterest was taken even in the success of the motion he was about to make. Whether England had acted unjust ly towards America, or whether America had acted unjustly towards England, whether the blame ought to be thrown upon France or upon Eng land, or upon America, he did not call upon them to decide. Whatever was really. the case, and whe ther the Orders in Council were wise or unwise ; whether they had been acted pp to, or whether to act up to them, had been found impracticable, were things which he would nut call in question ; but of this, he believed, nobody could doubt ; that great commercial distress had been experienced, and that if the market of America were to be thrown open to us, it would be felt to be a great and signal blessing: War with America, it was equally obvious, would be a great evil : and war once commenced, no man. • could tell what might tbllow. It might be welt for ;vs to talk of putting .down America, of inflicting chastisement, &c-as it 14 was its dm power. or Eng land to .annihilate her : We might talk this well, but we could not put . America down. She was there where we - had placed her; it was not in the power of England to - -,nihilate her, and it was therefore „ an the interest of England to be her friend. He was I been said of the power of this country to any not certain that the time was not gone by for couci- 'America, he would ask the Honourable Gentleman Hating America, and had he spoke eight and forty where in that House he could find it asserted that hours sooner, he might have been inclined to have England could or would annihilate America ?—He pronounced it altogether past. He had had fears that knew pretty well the sentiments of many of the Gen the Constitution frigate, which went from France in tlemen who sat in that House, and he knew of but the course of last month, had carried that with one feeling on the subject—an earnest desire to avoid her which might prove fatal to this country.-- a rupture. When the possible annihilation of Ame- Within the last 24 hours new arrivals had partly rica, iu - the event of a war, was contemplated, it removed such apprehensions. The Act spokenof as was only from an idea of the resistance that Awe likely to pass, admitting English manufactures which rice would make hetself, to the measures of its own lipoi been purchased bona fide before Feb. 1, 1811, Government, if placed in such a situation. He was, had given the people of this country 'great hopes of however, far from thinking with the Honourable relief, as it was felt that acting upon the false-swear- Gentleman, that the more' America flourished, the iug system noticed by Mr. Pinkney, almost any more thiacountry must necessarily flourish. If, fhr quantity of goods might be swore into America. The instance, America got ,all the carrying, and all the joy, however, expressed at this prospect of an, open- coasting trade of France, to vend the nouitfuctures iug market, sufficiently proved how great a blessing both of the new and old world, it , was to him a pa such a change would be sonsidered. The Orders in radot bow the presperity of America could tend to Council had disappointed thoie by whom they were that of .England. ' Ile 4ho.aglit it.was not very wise frames!, and there was hardly a merchant to be fo u nd pOr Jery politic in .the Honourable Gentleman to who did not complain of 1 their operation. On this speak - of the perjury ancl fraud which might profit question, however, be dirnot eall upon the Hearn e by the meant* now in contemplation in America, to decide, bat Ise called upon diem ' over and overlas temdting from the Orders in Launch. Where again to put themselves In possession of that !elem.! tiboatkletjUdeiand Arab& were most isracOsedt was Lotion which he had endeavoured to show % A s so no . whatie.ibe 0 ohms In Coancil did not exist. The Ho reestary, /le coal Ant kat admit 44 41111 kill ningetk qfpfikary fkotse the Partial repeal of the . . . ~ . ..... . . a V . . • • • , • • • • dtehpelocirrzt as ms muchtatir Orders in C ounc il, an d overleoked of that pe r j ur y w hi c h h e (Mr. S.) as any man could, being most prevalent in the Galt;; and in the trade with those pla ces w hi c h were r ' 4 ) from oo theoperatl n o a no xio ft o h s e to O a rd r e e r i s t i t n he C iro o l u z i l l Icild .. N i o v mancld be more ing evil of a war than himself—but he contentfie , that it did not rest with his Right .lionou e determine t h e tilywithgtoleiestGioonveorfumweanrt or r f this country , to raw lieved America was not in her conducraa o t n t i jo h i lu e e e H a l :. t. t t o e:: n advanced supposed a.and dne e.wdh lt i e f r ho trtohribe pretensionsir e ,: w h i t e i h e bo th e nlitlievedrAtiheat6sl7 Gentleman i not oem advanc e d e before, ra lieved she had been led by France to advance preten.: sious which she had not the tight of Were. On this subject he wished to say nettling, but found it diiil: cult to restrain himself from defending the line ot conduct pursued by thin country more at large.. I ( was not a ciaestion with Government ,whether or etc we should go to war with America, hilt mlietin,r i t was possible to remain at peace ?-11e trouid not iae without risking our greatness, he w - oad not say witi. out risking our lionour,, he would not say ui !mat risking even our security, but without risking the very existence of this country. Mr. CU RW EN insisted, that it Was impossible the House could he prepared for the discussion of the important topics connected with the Orders in Coun cil, without the information called for by the me. tion. lie put it to any man, whtther, if any other power had treated Great Britain as our Government hatlyeated the American Minister, we would not have thought it a just cause of complaint, and even of war, unless a satisfactory explanati o o r n th o e r s r ti e l p ) :: : tion could be procured ! The Hon. Gent: who spoke last did wise to abstain from that part as he would have found it difficult to produce any ar. guwents in justification of such a line of conduct. His lion. Friend (Whitbread) had said, that he rested the case on the ground of justice. He did not agree with him on that point. Experience of the effects of the unfortunate system which had been adopted, called loudly for an alteration, independeet of the consideration of justice. lle would a.k, whether a greet Statesman, who bad once given hie opinion in favour of the Orders in Council, had not now stated his conviction that they. ought to be re. tracted ? America had a right to carry her own pro duce wherever she chose, —a right which had always been considered as belonging to every nation. H. had the greatest satisfaction, however, in the pro spect, that with whatever pertinacity the commen. cers of this system persevered in it, they would not be long enough in their places to carry it much far then—Ulan-, hear, hear ! from Mr. Perceral.l— said this not from any personal dislike of the Right lion. Gentleman, but purely from a convic tion, that his measures would be ruinous to the coun try. A change of men would signify little, without a change of policy ; and if the country were to perish, he had rather it should perish in the hands of the commencers of the system, than in the hand: of those who had disapproved of it. He could not bet lament the thinness of the attendance when a question of so much importance was under agitation. .-one of the worst symptoms of the times was a want of feeling for the public interests. He trusted they should not be celled upon to decide this ques tion without the requisite information. Next to the subject of Ireland, this was, of all others, the most important. If the Right Hon. Gentleman persevered in denying the production of these papers, this would of itself be evidence of shostile feeling towards America—[hear, hear ! from Mr. Pereeval.]-110 affirmed that it was a proof that Ministers were afraid to meet the discussion fairly. fie concluiled by ex pressing his strong conviction of the danger and las policy ofri war with America, and his wishes that, by timely precaution, it might still be averted. The — CHANCELLOR of the „EXCHEQUER could not pretend to say what conclusion the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ctirwen) might draw in his owe mind, or what he might be disposed to argue; bat he was convinced that his conclusion was wrong, if he supposed that the refusal of the wen moved for could only proceed from, a spirit of hostility to America. Ou the contrary, if he now wished to withhold those papers from the Hon. Gentleman, it was merely to avoid quarrelling with America, if it wee possible to avoid it. The object of moving for dune papers was to have a discussion on them when grant ed ; andeit appeared to him that any parliamentary discussion which could,now take place upon the sub ject, must necessarily tend to increase rather than allay the irritation on the one side or the other. Liu agreed with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.. Whitbread) in considering the subject as one of extreme importance and interest. It was, moreover, a subject of great importance to us, whether it was this country t h an should ho forced into a war (if war could not be .tvoided) by America, or whether the war should re ied from soy misconduct OR ',he put of the British government. He must, however, always maintain, that as to the spirit of conciliation always professed in the diplomatical correspondence between the Os° countries, it was most sincere upon our part. The Government was alive to all the advantages of ran - - ciliation with America ; but still they felt it doll imperious duty not to abandon those maritime rights which this country had ever maintained, and which, if once relinquished, would leave the country but little more to give up. lie felt, that the eueitl" had been narrowed very much by the Houourabls Gentleman has iug declined to argue it. co the g it r i o c u o nd o s ne o il f . th T e h p o o s I t ic i y )oin a t n e d h j e o i s: a i d ee pr of ofetshsee Or d a ‘dvei,rolt . to discuss on a future day, A% hen the motion _a which an lion. and Learned Friend of hi ()lr Brougham) should be brought forw ard. He c oo i d n n o o u t v b a u b t ie say (len th tl a e t ma h n e f h e im lt te s it or d ry id , thatoot sin c etiolili. the lie the proper time to go into the question of the jo. 10 and policy of the Orders In Coun cil, he had n hesitated to pronounce his opinio n of their ilki( v: ip ` tic and impolicy. He could no t hut regret .ite see th e Gentlemen who usual l y sat ou the oti .: side of . the'. "House, had so little hesitation t coving untry.. L g qp ea inion r, heas .ag l a 3 iust m t e h y e . eh ro ot o thi se : e f coi t i . ec h 7 t , commencers—totittn.tZentleman ( arms not thosessiso were now his Majesty% Ministers. tits ea fresh tho Gentlemen on the other side Oat r.cor b s c r i e r o rl_ p w o a r tphhisra„sestferoolt,no.eti.; r :5 - if 1