The Statesman. — London, England, 1813-02-23 00:00:00

,~ ••• V1C.14:-C.: I ANCEI.LOR'S could hare userted as mach on a former evening ; but the lion. Member spoke with that confidence of a letter in his pocket, from which he derived his in formation, that he hesitated to do so. The names of the defaulters in the last ballot were then called oven, and the Right lion. Bragge Ba thurst not having rnswered to his, Lord Castlereagh moved that he should he taken into the custody . of the Sesjeant at Arms, when he entered the House. — The Speaker was just putting the question, when the Hon. Member entered, and took kis seat amid much laughter. Ile was ordered to attend the ballot to- morrow (this day). The follo•Aing Members not answering to their names, were severally ordered to be taken into cus tody : Sir C. H. Bouvexie, Sir R. Chaloner, Mr. Cline, Mr. Cook,• Gen. Congreve, Sir W. Drake, Mr. For rester, Mr. U. Grant, sett. Mr. Hanbury, Sir B. Hob house, the lion. C. C. Jenkins, Sir Edward Lloyd, Lord Louvaine, lion. T. Mackenzie, Hon. J. Mend, Mr. W. 11. Pringle, Lord Ratteliffe, Mr. R. Sheldon, Mr. W. Shil►lev, Sir Thomas Winnington, Mr. C. W. Taylor, Mr. Long Wellesley, Mr. John Wharton, and Mr. -- Whitmore. Just before the names were concluded, Mr., C. Grant, sen. entered the Mouse, and he was conse• quent ly excused. Lord Folkestone and Mr. Johnstone obtained leave of absence for six week, on account of ill kali It. Mr. Chiloner was excused on the motion of Mr. L. °codas, who stated that illness presented the Hon. Member from attending his duty. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the Order of the Day. for taking the report on the Vice-Chancellor's Bill into further consideration. ON the question that the. Resniu'io.'s he read a second time, hit. CORDON rose, and protested against the conduct of the Nolde Lord, who was attempting to force this m. asure through the House supported only by the irfesis'ible Arpin lit of a majority. It had row gone thrtmg!l the ComMittee, where it had received its last p lisp ; but it had been rendered less objectionable neither in principle nor in detail: the I) putt' to In , appoititvil remained only a Chan cery S , •roh, a sort of drudge who was to do all the busi eas the Chancellor chose to leave undone. The aTiditional clauses pow subjoined, also met with his decided opposition ; because they providNl, that the Vice-Chancellor and his officers should be paid out of a fund that the House had no right to dispose - of. view, the Lord Chancellor, who was so anxionq to be relieved of his labours, should be also saved the trouble of receiving fees for duties he did not discharge. H. moved that the Report be re 00111Mit Mr. M. A. TAYLOR having obtained the neces- I sary information, as Chairman of the Committee, that gave rise to this proceeding, was anxious to do justice to the Lord Chancellor. He. had seen exag gerated statements published of the emoluments annually obtained by him, in which they were re presented as amounting to more than 40,0001. per annum. The fee, derived from bankruptcies only were calculated to exceed 17,0001,—The fact was, that for the last three or four years the whole amount paid to the first Law Officer of the kingdom, was only 18, 19, or 20,0001. ; the bankruptcies pro duced 5.0001. and the salary of Speaker of the House of Lords was 7000 T. The calculations from which these figures were obtained, might be found In the Report of the Committee upon Delays in Chancery. ' , To prove, that the Noble Lord now presiding in Chancery was not very anxious to retain the whole of his profits, he need only state, that a few years ago his Lordship had expressly consented to take an average of the five preceding years, which would only yield him a revenue of between 15 and 16,0001. — The best mode of remedying the evil complained of was, to separate the decision upon bankruptcies from the office of Chancellor, to which they had been added by statute. He objected to the proposal of appropriating a larger share of business tothe Mas ter of the Rolls, or of removing the Chief Baron from the Court of R‘cliequer. Sir F FLOOD said, that be had voted against the second reading of this Bill, which, like most of the proposals of the Noble Lord, then came before the House-in a very slovenly state; bat now it had passed through the Committee, all its defects were removed, and he should give it his hearty sup port. HP WaS astonished to hear Gendem-en 'talk of ri-doeitig the salary of the Lord Chancellor; by compelling him to pay his Deputy.' %Wield they not have his Lordship placed in Sjel a situation as to be able to proceed with the stale, that became the Keeper of the King's Conscience, to the ',rouse of Peers? Or would they compel him, by diminishing his "laih-1 0 49. qn. muT-tea,. like a. ,velder.....cabi,' tying the Great Seal of England and his Mace on his shoulder?—[,/ latigh.)—For his part, be liked to see a little show : he should like to see the ex ample of the Chancellor of Leland imitated, who always _went about, with three footmen behind him, exciting admiration and attracting veneration. He could as little agree in the idea that the lcbenceller was to do nothing but work like a slam foe his living, after having reached ;:it periotl of :life when most men wish to enjoy themselves and their families. The llottemisble. 'Simonet then adverted to the 57 appeals tram heard, yetmide - - cided ; but the native simplicity of his dialect' pre vesitial us from comprehending his calculations. lie insisted that very few or them were founded upon the decrees of the three last.lrish Chancellors. A?. ter adverting to the condition§ of certain leases 'in Ireland, which depended, as he said, upon the DEATH of the Lire, he entered upon an enquiry into the la bours of the Chancellor and of the Master of the Rolls, neither orwhoni, he believed, had the power of working miracles. He was certain that Lord El doe was slot an extravagant man—[A laugh)—and in these times a real deal of Money went bat xxery li:tle way. He, therefore, approved the regulation that only half the salary of the Deputy be paid by the Lord Chancellor. On the whole, he 'approved of the measure, and of measures he should judge,. and not trouble himself 'with the bickerinEs about men. • BETRitgLL, as far as We could collect, re• that the precedency, of the Vim-Chancellor, not ,proportioned to his salary, ai It was pro ho should mit of* the Ms.i.e.ttlit • • Sir.C. marked Was MO PPS, I • • . • •• . *I ~ • - • 4 're 1. * 162 * 4 ° 1 4 .1014/ * . „ . - --7,- - , - Rolls, thoogh his salary was superior a to that of this . ;tbe gem ; *he professeithimself to hove no pkg.', Last officer. „Neal kaowl24l the Court of ChanCeryi bid, Mr. ABERCROM BY suggested, that it was not 4fter hating his reputation that the expedient intended that the Vice-Chancellor should have a ,lefere them vranldbe successful, come forward that seat in the House of Commons, the safest course to ulgbto and after simatiug with fell confidence. I pursue, would be to insert a statist in the Bill to this a Point s .of practice' in the ^ Court of Chao. purpose. The Statute of Anne, and' that .of Geo. y proceeded 14 . a. speech full of 'urea* 11. might be supposed at first sight to suffice., But • a els. The allusion to the Honours* end in this last Statute - it win sdecified, that the disability friorntld Chalrelau of the Cominittee, they must-us should not be extended. to offices held for Mar &Mead as beleg devoid of sarcasm, notwithstanding during some good behaviour. • In the statute• by the toile' and manner of the Unused Gentleman (Sir which the Commissioners of .Accounts wero appoint. W. Garrow). He had as much respect as any one for ed, they were excluded from sitting in that Howe by the Master of the Rolls, but notwithstanding all the a special clause ; and as the intention of the LegEsia. lammitation which they had , heard for the.absencte of ture was at present undoubted, lie Suppoied there jhat Learned Judge, which lamentation, no cloubt,.. could be no objection, in order to obviate future would besenewed to the full, in the case of any one doubts, to insert the clause he proposed. appointed to the Office of Vice,Chaneellor, he (Mr. Mr. ROSE said, that there could be no' objection W.) thought it expedient, that net only the Master to what the Honourable Member proposed, had not of the Rolls, but the Masters in Chancery, and the the Act of Anne been amply sufficient. The words Welch Judges, should be excluded from the Boate l were, that no one, holding any newly-created office I although, no doubt, Sir W. Grant had made a great of emolument, should be held quali fi ed to sit in the I' display of talent in thlt House and even risen to his House of Commons. . I high o ffi ce by that means. ---plo! from Me Mai- Mr. CANNING said, that agreeing as he did ' sterial sirk.l—This WO .the first time he (Mr. W.) with the Hon. Bart. opposite (Sir F. Flood), that the ' had heard. the fact disclaimed. The question should Bill had come out of the Committee in many aspects.! not he considered peesenally es the Master of the' as it went into it, and not agreeing with that Hoe. Rolls, but as the Officer in general, when appointed et Bart. that it had received one important amendment, ' a proper time of life. The only imputation- he had he (Mr. C.) should vote, as would not that H on. : heard on the Muter the Rolls, was that - brought Bart. (Sir F. Flood), against the third reading. The , forward by an Mono ble and. Learned Gentleman 1 Bill had come out of the Committee with all the de- : (Kr. Step en), on a f rreer night ; who bed stated 1 feces with which it went into it, but he should re. ' that that Judge woo not %it* the, pit from a 1 serve,to anotheelesportunity the-injections he should i Pelitkid pique a ga i ns t the Admitdatiadou, ati Ate I have tomaketwevery part of the Bill,and especially , formed an additional `reason that the Metter of the' to those whichlad been discussed hi the Committee. 'Rolls should not have a feat In Parliament, where : If the amendment which had been proposed, that the ,he was exposed to political partialities. The Master ' Chancellor shohld be divested of his jurisdiction over of the Rolls would not permanently have, this ad. bankruptcy causes, were brought forward, it Should ditional business, as much of the pressure arose from_ ' have his hearty concurrence; and to the Bill- with the circumstance, that the Chancellor, through an out 'such an amendment, he must entirely object. anxious desire to do strict justice, did nothing. - Al Auther amendment which had been suggested, pod ! other opportunities would offer for speaking 'on *the ; of which he also approved, was, that as the evil to . principle of the Bill, he should only say one word as be remedied was temporary, the remedy should be ' to the harmony always supposed by the Solicitor-Ge temporary also. 1 neral to exist in the Court of Chancery. There were Mr. M. A. TAYLOR proposed that the 'Law , instances, such as the case of Lord Thurlow, and Officers of the Crow ii should consult, whether, with I Lord Alvanley, where the Chancellor conceived the a view to remedy'the pressure of business in Chin, I greatest contempt for the Master of the Rolls, and cery, some of the Chancellor's functions might not I would never su ff er that Judge to sit for him. If such be separated with advantage from that o ffi ce? .. It prejudiced Chancellor existed hereafter, a Vice. Mr. LOCKHART wished to know in what ratan..! Chancellor, though endowed with all the learning nor it was to be determined what causes the Vice-I and all the talents; forensic and parliamentary, of Chancellor should hear; whether a commission was 1 the Solicitor-General, might be reduced to a sine to be issued to this Officer from the Great Seal l , or ' curist. He might strut about with his train-beam whether any order to hear this or that class of causes, `and his secretary—great at a levee, or any where or whether a ftesh order wars to be issued in the case ; else—but in the Court of Chancery worse than no. of every cause? It. wooid be satisfactory to the per. I thing. sons the fate of *hose property was to be. deter. I Lord CACTLEREA.GH thought, the nothing in mined by this Officer, to know whether he had by ! his Hon. and Learned Friend's (Sir W. Garrow) law a right to entertain jurisdiction in their cases. ! speech justified the attack the Honourable Gentle. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that the : man had made on him. The characteristic of w..at mode of determining what causes were to be heard : he had said on a former night, and what he had that by the Viee.Chancellor would be by orders issued ' night repotted was, that it had all the weight of ar. from time to time by the Chancellor,' Keeper, or the gument, and was stated in an inoffensive manner..- Commissioners bolding the Great Seal. As to'the in- He could not be accused of arrogance, as he had been decency which was said to be apprehended from' the I challenged as a Lawyer to come forward, and had subordinate condition in which the Vice-Chancellor I done so accordingly. In answer to an objection would be placed with respect to the Chancelliw, ; which had been urged with respect to the possible when it was said he might be interrupted by the abuse of the authority to be given by this 13111, he Chancellor's bell, what was the case at present when would observe, that the Lord Chancellor might nom, a Judge and two Masters in Chancery sat for the as the law at present existed, come into Court, and Lord Chancellor ? They proceeded to hear such take any cause out of the hands of the Master causes as might be dispatched within the time of the Rolls, even after it had commenced. — during which it was probable they would sit.— This consequence, improbable and unheard-of This would be the case with the Vice-Chancel- as it was, might be expected to happen if we for. The Chancellor would discover what was the were to argue from the abuse of the law and I most convenient manner of conducting the business, not the use of it. The differsnt plaits which had ' and signify it to the Vice-Chancellor; and from the been proposed to be substituted for the present Bill harmonious manner in which business was con: were a sort of contre-projets which operated the one ducted in Chancery, no evil was to be appre- as a complete negative upon the other. One Ho handed from this mode. of proceeding. He had never nourable Gentleman opposite had this night distinctly pledged himself to propose any amendments in the stated his conviction that the erecting the bankrupt- i Committee, but he had said thist any objections cies into a separate department would create much I against the Bill might be remedied there. As some- difficulty and conflation. He himself thought that the . thing must be done to remedy the existing evil, what same interruption and confusion would necesarily had been proposed instead of this Bill ? To take a follow from overloading the Master of the Rolls, Judge, of whose integrity and talents enough could with all the arrears in the Court of Chaucer), and • not be said in praise, and load him with all this ad- separating lam from'a •Court where he had so long ditional business • and this, though that Honourable presided with honour to himself and satisfaction to person had stated to his constituents that the prey. this as well a- to foreign countries. He totally dig. I sure of his ordinary business was such as to compel approved of' that complexity of nsovoment and judicial him to abandon. the piccalilli( duties of representing machinery by which it had been proposed to transfer i his native county' in th a t House. A certain the Judges from Court to COurt, and to supply the number of juridical days were marked out with - abience of one from his proper sphere by the soccesire i mathematical accuracy, and were to be imposed on removal of others out of theirs. He did not believe that I the Master of the Rolls, although that Officer had the great and excellent character who had been so ! been begged, by the' Gentlemen of the profession often referred to would ever stand in the way of I attending his Court, to desist from even his ordinary any advantage to his country, but he conceived that' sitting v . lest his valuable life might be etelangered. lin case of any such arrangement being adopted; it 0 FThe question was riot of willingness or unwilling- , Would be absolutely necessary for him to retire from ! netts, but of personal capacity to perform such adds- ' the high situation which he now filled.' It was not I ilk's's' datx.-Bmiit seuseld-the duties would octbe i historically.. true, that she Maass of-the anils.awed imposed Without additional. emolument. Was it a' l his elevation to the talents which he bed displayed in compliment to this Judge, who had' declined the' that House; he owed it chiefly and originally to the most grateful .duties, to say to him, that he. must ; distinction which he had obtained in the Court of I now come forward and play the part of Scrub or' Chancery, and at the Bar of the Rouse of Lords. I Meng°. An Honourable and Learned Gentleman IHe must enter his protest against any measure which! 1 (Mr. M. A. Taylor) whom the House would set [ proceeded on the supposition that the evil to be reme. I have forgot to have been . the Chairman of the Com- ; died was a temporary evil. Even if a tempocaree! ntittee to enquire into the Chancery delays (even had ! office were in this view treated for the purpose, no he not himself informed them of it), had looked on i eminent professional man would accept of it, unless this scheme as visionary, though he disliked the pre+ !itn condition of the continuance of the salary after sent Bill. The Judges in Westminster Hall were is i his services had ceased. Why, then throw a charac burthetied with business, that no assistance could be I ter of doubt and disrespect upon the office without expected from them. As to the sending,the. Chief l aity advantage to result from it ? It would be at all 1 Baron of the Exchequer to the Cock-pit, no Coed, ; times in the power of Parliament to annul the office, 1 I it was well known, could exist without its head—sot, if found unnecessary, as they had created it. even a Bench of Justices, as any Gentlemen oppo- 1 • Mr. STEPHEN stated , . that he should not have . ,I site, who happened to b e Ch a i rma n o f one, might ' risen, but for the notice *Webbed been taken of an know. The Courts of Westminster consisted con + , allysion made by him on .a former night, to the cause 1 stitutionally'of four Judges, and It would be' a dis c ' of the Master of the Rolls withdrawing hiMself revery of that night, if it we; fOlind. that they could front the Cock-pit. He conceived that no impUtation go on with three. ' I was implied in the statement he had made, which, Mr. TAYLOR explained. He had not laid any i however, was founded only 'on common rumour...-. stress on 14s having been.Chaitmen of the Committee, i His attendance these efts nevelt - 1g his.hfficied duty, but lisd merely mhtioned it incidentillY. I it was perfectly gnaultooe„end he was at liberty to The SOLICITOR-GENERAL e,sptained,. that ' continue Or discontinue Was he saw proper.' hp had only - mentioned that the • Hon. Gent. was i Mr. WIIITIIREADditt not know anything more Chaittium of the Cheimittee to his honour. • • ' -I pf the tianeac . lien than he had leirned from the in, Mr. WiIITBIcItAD said, that dering hie whole' formation of thq Limed Member. Bat. he had; parliamentary life, blur 'weer witnesied such ,an I staled that the Muter of tht Rolle. had been ill. bitten** of rapid growth' as they' had seen that night. ! bested by the kiwistry• of 11/00. apqattail ha. had The infant of this day week had become a giant that j Ewen opposed Ist ii County Elevation, be Sad, it seems; diy. ' 'The Hon. 'and. Learned Gentleman Or W. ' 'Wired from the. Cook • Col of political . pique anti Gam:4N who'but a 'week aps was so dinitlettti Oulu .'. Mr` ; . 140. dilk_gist . attach m 4 . ~,,s,l that 4 could mercely venture to ebtradeitiinself oil ; to flat aged p ry • 1 hellieughl tha t if tins, li •, •*•-• —•••• if-. 4 c. 7,1 44 0 !qtr!..61"; -gerAnate' • • _. N B 'S led le cens -6— are-on thecondaetelt chi ll~aster of the Roils.' • . Sir SANIUMROMILLY : whiiii 4'4:k - 1 4; 1 6i ,the Bill, which he *as "noble to do from the Bi li Itself, without the assistance of th •in f to t w ra is n h sf ed er tli ca be tises info let rated do , w w a tie f t o h r er elli t e Wal li infeDditd aster moo rime d i t • the Rout toilte.Vice-Chancellor ; itabo . 16 transferred, it would create consiireiati- disiet i ls:- ./aotion, and a multiplication of busbies, by COll appeals; if it were not intended so totnursfer *ern. all the causes would be set down ber6re 'We 'Matti' • o f th e Rolls. He "A/modelled how Geationen who had professed on a forme night to be satis. Bed, not with what the Bill was, but with what do o tfi f ecatibot t a r etletards.oool A asy me . it might be, should - tows! their app tier same ment us ai d s in : i ni er f oeeta s a s itel t t ho rati l w a wa och notr i s adn i T e c a ti s il o i o n nsei r s , t 4 Y and he oli tGmhe ut is f s re i ll i . '.4 it bid bien tha s t fu th :t t lf , s a t d a g t el e, dome but the Vice- C hancello r was stil l to proceeff tc time to time direct. could stet ipossaibirbe-srired from 'their Courts to • assist SOChisiscellor. Us that in -la4 Trinity Term, three Judies bad * sit 'with • the Chassellor for teem demi - oil the will of Mr. Wilkiesoo. This foinseditt Wit oi mreeption to the ebriete impossibility stated: The objections' to: the westraditei and essomfal. It tade • an a in the logal constitsitloatof the country; sod it would hereafter be recorded, that.lo my Lord lisnq OR R kid P4ssitk_ TVs* halide it impos. S Miloy eileto rise to *ft% honours Of - the oStesslirn and open path of Ms duty. It: Was not just to sarthat no other.remedy had been • suggested. Several expedients bad been proposed, among others to-enable tht.Lords to heacappeals in tbe . gbie9ce of , the chancellor ; of which no notice .ivad been taken. Yet why Should not the other House, be competent ta do this, assisted by one of • tht Noble and Learried Lords who had held the seals either of England or Ireland ? The same course had been More than once adopted in the time of Lord Mansfield ; and Lord Bathurst bad sat for - Lord • Thurlow. As to the observation which bad been made on the increase of business from the Irish ap peak, it was to be remembered, that before 1782, appeals from that country were tried here as at pre - , sent, and that 'it yids only' from 1782 to 1800 that there was a suspension of the ordivary and establish. ecteoiiree of justice. . Mr. WEATH ERALL replied at. soma length to Sir Samuel Hominy. Mr. PRESTON .took the same line of argument with the last speaker. ' Mi. PONSONBY, in answer to thealleged ano maly in English law of creating a Judge without appeal, observed, that in matters of bankruptcy there was at present no appeal. [Hear, hear The Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Wes. thirst') seemed terrified at the consequences which would result from the appointment of a Judge for the separate causes of bankruptcy. In the Honour able and Learned Gentleman's opinion this would produce a. narrowness of view is, the person who should he appointed -to this bench, which would • render him tomtit for the . It was the first time' he lied ever beard ,ehat the division of labour made the labourer -more inetcpert.—iHeorn But would not the advisers of the Crown a vise the appointment of the fittest person for the office ?-11 - bad been said, that the separation of the bankruptcy causes would not afford a sufficient relief to. the Lord Chencellor. Did not the bankruptey causes consti. tote I.4th of the Chancery busihesi?.--The Chan. cellor who should be left with 3.4tirevof the present business, and should be unable to „ftaecuse it. • was • very un it to hold that situatiost. .An Hon. and Learned Geneleinau not, in. hii place (Mr. Stepben), bad .been at once "the a=ccuser and esculpator of the Master .of the Rolls. He knew not why that Honourable and Learned Gentleman had thought . fit to become the- accuser of that racked cherac j ter, or • whether it wet. by his *permission. that be had. become his defender. Did the Honourable and • Learned Gentleman - think that .it was a fortunate defenCe for the Master of the Rolls that he -1 , 1 withdrawn himself from the decision Of ceases at the Cook-pit ' because tut opponent of, his, at a comity election l had received. some support from Ministers? He thought the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ougpc to consider some time before he appeared again in t* chiracteC of it defender. He could see no objection from the ; 1 0 te re t t e s ' e se? "1. ara n tio e n Bankruptcy ta o k f tngaway part causest)fe lot's emoluments was no ohjection,Jor the Cnancol. doe ought to be liberally paid, and consequently com• pensated foe any loss.. This was .00 part of the or. dinary.Chancery. business; but soperinduced a few =ago because the Legislature dii! not know whit . ; Mr.I3RAGGI-BATITURSt said; if an anomaly , were to be allowed 'to exist, as in the case of Beak. ruptcy causes, it ought not to exist in a sabordinate oificett but in a person eiothed with the highest dignity. The question was then pot, and-the -Amendment • negativ'ed, The Report wet thee agreed tu, the Mitt, with its Amendinenta, ordered . to be engrossed, land the.'thirel reading appointed to take place on Tuesday - next. .'The Report of the Committee of Supply of Fri day was brought up and agreed to. Sir. B. ilobhouse and Mr. Sheldon, who were re. t ported. to be in the custody of the Serjeant, igiembly to OM Qrder of the Hoube, were ordered to be dia. charged, paylug'their fees. The Report of the • Starch Bill was agreed to, land the Hill ordered to be read & third time to morrow. . • I s' • FIRE ARMS. .; Slr JAMES•SHAW obtained lea,* to bring in a Bill compelling. Manufacturers of Fire Arms..to mark -upon the guns and other articles manufac tared by them; their names and places of abode. He immediately bniqgitt up the bill, which was read a first time, and ordered. to be void a second time this day se'nnight, and - to be printeffes-Adjoorned. swonweawimingrns* Some anxiety prevails for intelligence of the sato arrival, M Lisbon, °fibs 10th 'Regiment of gaolers, advice having 'been received at the' War Met, by letters, dated. the Bth instant, of the transports Mu cling arrived in the Tagus with the troop% of anoth er r carpi ',cavalry, which sailedYeur days after the 10th. 9