The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-01-27 00:00:00

ba-Se r ti THY, STATESMAN.' Acute, Rrt.! therefor, h e ei,s.sid red it, insto ad of itsi:e.trs ; 10114941 for tiofo x much stronger u.te. eutil the uromketi information leas befo.to lase House. lie w ileitis , ' it was 'afrly with his Sla;estv—(foloreturs)—he Incloot rstipectfully, or t s . vh ;he officers, this to Freinofge tke question i. the ab.roce of all Otos.: proofs without uh chi ‘cis imp . ).Fibie to arrive at a jut 11113 correct i Upon these grounds it was, that he felt it his duty to move the previ ous question, conceiving also, that, by the former decashott of the Rouse, it w , t; bound by its own eona.talcucy to reject the motion of the Noble Lord. . hi v. BATHURST expressed it as his opinion, that notwithstanding the liteiy spirits and alfeettd candour of the last Speaker, his Right lionoura. Me Friends had evinced no great sagacity itt select. ing him to put himself forward upon the present occas;ine. He deprecated in strong terms the at. tempt to fetter the decisions of that Mouse, by the Introduction of his Majesty's name impuiperly ; neither would he allow, that he was at all re stricted in his %Tot: upon that night, by whatever ling.'s( conduct he had . felt it his duty to take the Arst'aight of the Session. The Hon. Merin. had also attempted to attach s want of candour to the course pursued by the Noble Lord, upon grounds wholly untenable. Had the NololeLord cared upon this novre l merely toaster upon a pbblic inquiry, then tin lion. Member would have exclaimed, What inquiry ? Where were the grounds ? Yet, when the reasons for such a proposition were stated, then the expedient to deal out the charge of its beieg uncandid, and that the House, by acceding to it, were guilty of prejudging the case, was re. sorted to. lie was of opinion that there was, !T -om the face of those transactions, fully sufficient t, warrant the presumption, that inquiry was necessary. The country had the same feeling, and the pudic voice, which, upon this paint, was neither factiously or unreasonably raised, ought to be heart', lie therefore should giro his vote in favour of the original motion. Mr. FULLER stated his coincidence with the opinion of the Hon. Member who just concluded; but conceived, that it would be right in him, and other Members, not to take up too much of the time of the House, in making long and extraneous speeches. (A laugh, and order, order!) Such a practice prevented many able and worthy men from exprosing shoitly their reasons fur the course of conduct which they adopted. With respect to the immediate question before the house, he had no hesitation in saying, that in quiry into the cause of the late failures was •abso lutely necessary. It was called for by the country, jrn one extremity of it to the other. Great dis. mfitures had occurred, and the people had aright to know with whom the blanie ought to rest, win ther with these who planned, or with tam who executed. The information pronsi,ed by Mi r; c.f..= stool(' not have bees delayed; in his opi. WU, the papers slsoutd have been before the Ju o i,(l the very day of Its first meeting. [Heat* ! hear!] To bo sure, they were promised In the Kill's Speech, but he never knew any of these Speeches to be any great things. [A laugh.] Ile was the enemy to the continuance of sinecure rl he thought no man should hold yr office of this kind who did not do the duty of it. Eit laugh.] Woen the tax. gatherer was unceasing in his demands upon the people of this country, it WAS intoferable to find great public men talc. 10,0001. or 12,0001. a year out of the peo ple's pockets. The correction of such abuses would be true reform, making the House the ho. nest Representative of the People, and rendering wholly ridiculous these now.fangled doctrines of representation which were new too low for dis cussion in any respectable place. When an Ho pourable Gentleman (Sir John Sebright) talked' of the little claim Ministers had to confidence, he must answer, that he (Mr. Fuller) could place little confidence in him who endeavoured to drive him out of that House.—( Loud laughter) The CHANCELLOR of the Ex.cumauta acqaiesced in the opinion of his llonourable Friend (Ir. Bathurst), that he was unfettered in the line of conduct which he had determined that night to persee by any opinion or course which on the 1 . . 'ruler night he had taken, particularly as con nected with the reasons which he (Mr. Bathurst) had 'upon that occasion specially given. But whilst he t was ready to make that admission, he at the same time must be allowed to say, that it would not be et all inconsistent in his lion. Friend to take the "I ' contrary • . I .clso the present motion disposed to take: The ques. ‘ t ... now was not, whether the House shall or 1t ' ' 11 not go into inquiry, bet whether it will suspend F " e motion for going into such inquiry until thel e t !-Ilifernatien which was necessary was before the 1 • 14 liittse. Thei craves stun his I,loaourable Friend 1 gh -, •-tarereet-thr pieviossiminieg f MAO trot because he teas hostile to inquiry, but that' 'he conceived the 1 . 31Ionseshould not precipitate itself to the adoption of • a emirse in the ab.ence . of all those proofs which were necessary k , fora) a correct judgment, brat, whether inquiry should take place, and real, in what manner it should be conducted.— The Noble Mover had stated, that as soon as the House should have adopted his 'resolution,' that hi. next step would he to inquire of him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) when the proposed information would. be laid before the H.,use. Ile rather thought that this question should have preceded the present motion • and therefore he felt it his duty to explain h imself anon that subject, in the present stage of the dis. cession, to the house. It would be a very great disappointment to him if the papers would not be ready to be laid on the table by Monday; and it • was also his determination, that the printing of them should be expedited as fast as possible. .That being the state of the question, the HOW° was now called upon to decide, whether, Withorit in. Zorromion, they will proceed upon a Friday to do that which, if it be found necessary to do, they can, with the papers and proofs is their possession, carry into effect 1 1Pon the enceeeding i Monday, The motive to inquire, if sincere, must I * t o a mai n information, that information was in I I peoguebs to he comtnenicated, and, therefore, now fo 10656 thejirunto tq a precipitate rauletion of this kind, could be for no other object but to Obtain its vote, before the information, which ought to guide its decision, was imparted. Men) , Hoe. Gem lcinen have said, that the country wants, prompt inquiry, and that the gratifieatiup dutch a reasonable anxiety ought not to be delayed. In the course intended by his Majesty's Government, there cannot bee loss of a day, or oven an'hohr. 'But, perhaps, the disposition to press the resole- tion of that night may be traced to other motives of a more powerful influence upon some minds than the affected solicitude for inquiry. There had bceu something said of a knowledge of Parliamen tary tactics; and perhaps the events of a former night had convinced the opposite side, that there was not much generalship in the course followed upon that occasion ; and that the failure of that night might be retrieved by the present expedient. [Hear! hear!) Upon the former occasion, the Gentlemen oppoisite comedown, in the fullest con fidence of their own stiength, with a motion un equalled in the annals of Parliament, for width he challenged them to produce, in the history of the country, a single precedent. (/leer! hear! from both rides of the House.)" A Member from the Opposition Bcuch whis. pered across the Table, that there never was such an occasion. Mr. PERCEVAL resumed. It has been net very regularly intimated, that there never was any such occasion. Indeed it would be difficult to find such a course adopted upon any occasion in any Assembly which had regulated its proceedings by a regard to justice, namely, to condemn that which they afterwards affected to inquire int,. It was, indeed, reserved for the present times and actors, to act upon a principle whith heretofore was reprobated, and to reduce into their practice the disreputable doctrine, so well comprehended, in the words of the Ancients, " Castigatque, au detquc." Before the House pledged itself to in. quiry,. in the manner prescribed by the motion of the Noble Lord, it ought first to know the nature of that evidence which such an iuquiry might draw I forth. If in that evidence it should ' appear that the Expedition was undertakes' in consequence of communicutions from any Foreign Power, did the Noble Lord, could the House conceive, that the mode pointed out by him of a Committee, was a proper one fur the discussing and giving publicity I to such puts of the information produced ? When such stress was laid upon the importance of the tribunal to which the Noble Lord wished to have this inquiry referred, one would have supposed that he was alluding to impeachnient, and was dis turbed at the lapse of time which the erection in Westminster Hall would consume, before the ob. ject sought fee could be realized. As he stated before, there could be no time gained by the pre wit motion, and therefore it was his intention to vote for the previous question, leaving, as it did, the House perfectly at liberty, when tie informa tion was before it, to take that course which it should feel to be then correct. He Could oat think that there was say ground for hopotiog to his Honourable Friend s(Mr. Croker) the Idea that he had introduced his Majesty's ham. with any Improper object, or that he. alluded to the deal. rations in his speech, with any other impression than that it was the speech of the Ministers. The vote which the Noble Lord was anxious .that night to give, might be a very great deihicratiim with him, and all such others as were anxious to get the present Servants of the Crown removed from office; a very natural object for them, as natural as it was for him to unmask theirs, and to shew to the House that though inquiry was their pretext, the other wal their pursuit. That they would have succeeded upon a former Occa. lion they had the fi:lleat confidence, hut never was disappointment more strikingly 'exemplified.— ( Hear ! Hear ! from the OppoSition.) Mr. WINDHAM said, the Right Honourable Gentleman had been pleased to indulge himself in much fancied pleasantry at the supposed confi. deuce of Opposition in their own strengfli- , —this, idea was taken up certainly for the rake of the joke, and had no existence excel:Witt his own mind. Notwithstanding the jest, flowerer, he was still of opinion, that the Motion ought to be sup, ported. It was a Motion, indeed, Which needed no previous information—a motion which ought, to be carried by general acclamation, and not subjected to a dry deliberation. .In his opi. nion, it would disgrace Parliament to wait for any information on the subject ; they had all the information which was necessary, and the production of any papers Woad' only prove an aggravation of enormities, already too glaring. To *whom was this great disaster to be imputvil ? To the Commanders ? No Ofinisters themselves did not accuse them. To the wind and weather ? How could that influence ships in part,, or en army not exposed ? 'to the. fortune cilitilrl. Nu ; for where the troime wete engaged,, they leery uniforritly etetarinni: ttlitilfid7theismne attach? To those and those solely; who ' the Expedition—who planned it in direct del.. ance to plain and pre.existie objectialisedien sent 'our • brave soldiers. to ti er ' rish in the pestilential miasmata of Holland —.to expire like a candle in a If papers were necessary, hosiei.:r, as the Speech seemed to intimate, the decent course wonid hire been for Ministers them' have laid the on the table -the very fi rst day of the Session. [Hear! hear!]—They theMselves alloy el they . were necessary ; why, then, werelhey . not forth. coming ? Though Ministers could foresee nothing else, surely they could not be ighorent that Par. liament was to meet on the day'it'did, Wear, hear !]-He wished they hid shale little or the alacrity with which they withdreiitite troop, from, Holland, in the preparatioq.et Omni, in ills mind, unnecessary papers. .It was said that the Speech was the Minister's Smith, and not the King's. Why then did the Hon. Gentleman demand respect for it from the !louse ? As the Srech ofthe certainly it would have been entitled to every re. spect; but as the Speech of the Alloister, to mine', The concluded by hopieg, that the Hausa would skew, by its immediate .msetlipnetion, that thii was a snbject epee 10014, 3 11111fOrt 40Uperaticon wu nnneeeisary. . ' Mr ! PONSQNDT Uri 10 .. HQ- lIIMMIMMiI . T " ~ riurtr ' ""4. , • 'III 41"e141P4P`'' . :e ugal '"?' ..« f *pow.' . f nottiable Gentlenro opposite had Waited' the question; . where he said it was a inert; question 'between Friday and Monday—a mere grestioo as to the propriety of waiting a few hours, or de ciding immtdiately. It was no such question; the oity . question was whetheethat }lnure wowiti 'do its duty, or defer it in compliment to the Ni oister.--( flew, hear, hear!) The Minister de. sired the House to wait for his information! Who ever heard of such a request oo the part Of the accusal ?—[flerte!]—ln courts of justice, if a prisoner was to say to the Judge, " Wait, 'do not condemn me, wait iu complaisance to my merit, and you shall hear in time , *hat a famous story I shall toil you." Who I would ever think of paying him attention J— r Thor, hear 1 Why should Parliament wait one moment? Why wore not the papers ow the table the first day of the Session ? Let the an swer which the Minister advised the King to make to the Corporation of the City of Loudon be recollected, " He did not think it necessary to institute any inquiry into the conduct of his Commanders by sea or land, but left it to the wis dom of his Parliament to proceed as they thought proper." [Hear, hear !] Parliament had ;tow met, and why should it not immediately . pro. teed' It was the first time , he believed, in the histort of the country, in which, in times of great national calamity, the House of Commons a England was desired to wait on the p4a. / sure of the *Witter! [Hear, hear!] The Minister said, It sebnltl . be preposterous to tote inquiry, and then ask for information : yes, Po it would, if the House was to stint itself to the scanty information which he would give it ; but it would do no such thing—it would reject his of fered and unnecessary information, and in its own wisdom, proceeding on its own grounds, probe the calamity to the b woe% (Hearl hear!) The Minister also said, that the Amendment on the first uight went to prejudge the question, and , in this also he was mistaken ; the Amendment only went the length of stating, that the Expedi tion was a grcat public calamity. Was an Inquiry necessary, now to ascertain that ? ((leer ! hear!) An Inquiry was indeed necessary; not, however, to ascertain whether the Expedition was a calamity or not, but Co ascertain to whoin the calamity was imputable. [Hear, hear !] This was the only object of the proposed Inquiry, and condenina tion would of course follow the discovery. Con demnation of tho culprit, whoever he might be, was indeed imperiously demanded.—" The the. my has declared (said Mr. PonsonbyY that the Genius of France conducted the British army to perish in the pestilential marshes of Walcheren." No ;jt was not the Genius of France, but the Demon of England—a weak, divided, dis. traded, and- incapable Administration ; ill thought of by all, and suspected by them. selves ; contemned - by the country, and di. Tided• against one another; their very leader—he who commanded the finances of the nation—declar. ittg himself ineocent because he was igaerant.— Behold the picture of a -British Ministry !! pear, hear, hear .9 Why should Bonaparte -wage hostility against) the country of which such men are the Ministers ? [Hear, hear .PJ What need has he of Ills great power and talents to cope with their insincerity to themselves, and their Lacey*. .oity in their offices ? [Hear, hear !]-11006, :who, unanimous that their inefficient colleague shoed,: be dismissed, yet allowed him to remain in power ; allowed him to conduct the greatest expedition which ever left our coast, oitirkieh .the eyes of England were fixeiN and the fate of Europe depended --lest they should hurt his feel. ings! [Loud crier of hear !] Men, who were content to our brave soldiers to their grave— content to sqander the treasure of the country— content to tarnish our national name, iu the hope of finding some colourable pretext for reconciling the Noble Lord's feelings to his incapacity ! i'Vhere was their consideration for the honour of their country ? Where for the fame raf the army ? Where for the feelings of the people .who had committed such a trust into their hands ? (trearli - hear!) And yet how is it to be endeared, rthat one of those men should be transferred to the 141diad of the present Administration, and demand. `ft . the confidence of that Mute, desire it to ab stain from all inquiry into their misfortunes, till he should think proper to give it his information. We have indeed experienced many calamities. We have tolerated innumerable sufferings and priva tions ; but if this &Oland is this night 'exceeded to; if such a Minister obtains the confidence of this House, then malignant men enough may be found in the nation to pronounce its greatest calamity— nab an House of Cotnnsons ! ~-. Mr. STEPHENS, after a few words, said he should vote forthe previous Question. ~..: S ir. SAM UPIL ROMILLY was convinced that sot one hour shiiild be last in instituting an In. pilot; - Ile .e.Liold not isissligsbe burn a V oteliek ail . •14iiiry could be Said to shrew a blame on Mi. oilaters, unless. they were convinced themselves, that the result of the Inquiry would be to make their guiltawident. Mr.. LESLEY FOSTER si It tho .•' 7 Motion:. ..• Gencril GROSVENOR and Sir NOM POP. HAM supported themotion. Mr. EYRE, impressed with the idea, ihit for th e h o nour of the House, an Inquiry should be as speedy ns possible, would vote for the Motion. Mr: SMITH thought the Inquiry would come 'hotter on Monday. • 'Sir GEORGE WARRENOER would vete 'fat the question the readier, as the Hight lion. and Gentlemen opposite had stated, that it wits 'llll attempt to effect their removal Tro i a, ape. " *Mr. D. °BROWNE spoke spinet the MotiOu. ' Mr.H A RYF.Y thought there was cake acorn. plaint somewhere. Mr, WILBERFCMCH 'said, he had heeq thirty ierfrs a Member of that House, hut in ail thht time he ,fever found the Ministers of the clay plendly is inquiry, they allylo opeosil . pm float for that purpose, either directly or iedi. rectly. Ile should be extremely 'OO to see Mi. tchgen shoe( disposition:W . ll*c the r u shes of I . the country.• He wooftt hate them aatioes -at on% to Onto to Inquiry, when they fount' tour. • Trw, . mttrings out of doors. It hen ha reflect ed number of Expeditions that had sailed country in the coarse of thb list f e ,, 7 1 11 scarcely One of which was successful, h e 44 one of those who would si ;%matize any set of 4 4 glisters because they failed. The Ezpoi t i o . the Scheldt certainly had most egregiously r t of realizing the just and we ll-f ounded hover s 1. Country ; and the Noble Lord who w Hitt! office (Lord Castlereagh) had behaved wok ing bo was ready to come f0r,,,,d in 46 of that measure, whenever the House O; think fit to make it a subject of koiry ; h that Noble Lord, as well as his late cullcatuel Canning) were not in office, still that IL use the Country held theft responsible. A s to ting off the Motion of the Noble Lord till : I Monday, he did not like the idea. li e wouldi ther secure the object theni.7-(11:.ar ! hcar!)' the Oentlemen did not fear inquiry, 0, 0 44 ! was the time. (Hear ! hear !) A s to tht of ingniry, it could be of little consequence it i t 'him it was at the 13ar of that Mou e Or Committee. If Inquiry bad not been Cetera -4 against, he trusted. that the House would insti it immediately. lie approved of the Motietil the N.hle Lord. Mr. BOYLE (Solicitor-General for Scott said, the Motion was nut to inquire into th e pedition to the Scheldt, it was to appoint a mittee of the whole House for that purpo se . the House did not wish to bring itself into • mile and contempt—(conilderable chferinjf the Oppoxition benchei)—it would consider 0(1 consequences of the Motion if carr i ed. Het sured the House he had not be en instructed byi constituents how lie was to vote.--(4 lae g h,) Sir WM. CUIVIIS rose to giro hi s supports most hearty concurrence to the Motion of the N ble Lord—(l/ear, hear ! .from the Oppoiiii side of the House)—lie went to that House to, his duty, and he thought inquiry necessity., (Hear ! hear!) Mr. SUAINE 11, cult] he must have some grot for an Inquiry before he approve) of such all lion al that before the * douse. Mr. II()i I. E evplained. lir. W. SNIITIL—IIe as well as 19 out of 21) Is country, did not aunt Papers to citable him i.e judge o f Question; why, therefore wait till Motidav ? If t: ie nut then decide, the Que stion would he put off to a that would never arrive. [Hear. hear:) Mr. TIERNEY thought there never was a Maiiiint involved ..lore important consecitteitees before that H 'rat. Right Host. Chancellor of the Exchequer had slid the Motion was the effect of the disappoint:sick aid in consequence of having been out-voted. Tile Risk rt nourable Gendemon spilke in a very humble tone tee night ; but having found hiurself in a pretty good msjon be talked louJ. and st hit a bold and slamplim manner, inandeil the support.. of twat House as his Abilest)'s ilia ster. To colour the opposition to the Motion, precedes* been quoted—toe Buenos Ayres Expedition. No lona was necessary ; as the Wirers had been broke iii m a i l place, which precluded the nece.sitr. 'l'he noose hadlos told that it was prejudgi{ng the question. Was it, woo ! , he wsold ask, so have P a p e r s to te ll hi m that then isi calamity? As to what was sa.d in th e King's Speech producing Papers, he did not believe a word of it. It me o f the (ad tricks. I f the question were put off till ile d a y benuighi, be would tell the II awe what wools a 4 bappen—that would be a Motioa for Papers—then Motion for Papers to exploit; those previuueJ proctor* so on till the end of she Session. Ile thought the questwou been said, to be one on a bich no Papers that o quid le • dared in that' House could throw any light. llb Ma had distinct]' avowed, that he has no fault to Had eh Commanders or Officers belonging to that Expedniso- Well, then if there were limit, as there certainly sat, it mu be that of those who planned it. As to the mods is a•• the Inquiry ought to be carried ou, he would be (Invent sit nothing Ant examination at the Bar of that Hoar, in at face of t he , public. (hear, hear!) lie wanted that 6 confidence of the country should he restored, he would sly,if Ile not disorderly, secured to (hot hour. It rerinots ea Aiken. *nil examination only was warded, The excites iv apposing the Motion were flimsy, and must be seen throsp ''by the public. The Papers, the much-boasted-of Pspeisos d, were kept back as a corps do reserve. Heliopolis ttthat the Motion of the Noble Lord would Succeed; tk ious question, if carried, wield put off Inquiry:do. "'ether and he viacerely hoped that the auth o rs of as k an t. ties aw l disgraces woolJ ha brought to coodigo uiso;-" her. M' ILBER FOIICE explained. Lord NEWARK approved of the Motion. • Mr. LOCKHART supported the u:iginal•Aintloe. Mr. GOOCH was friendly to Inquiry. bat thought the pteseut Milian premature, and therefore he should soak the Previous Question. Mr. CANNING declared his convictioo that /itentrysin +vinery, but he did net see that the mode suggcstild lie to Noble Lord rens praiser, and would therefore support in Previons-Qoest ion. Mr. PA TT ESON moved that the Debate be adjoarint a Monday sennight. The %lotion being put from the Chair, Mr. PONS()NIIY rile, and said that. be felt pereadel thst the Motion originated in the Minister. who telt Owl would he in a Mihoritv. and a fished to gain time. The Cif A NC FLLOR of the f.;XCH 1.1411E1t.—" Toilet the Right Hun. (iimileman that be is mistuketi, 1 shall give ; negative to the Motion." Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The Gallery was cleared, and Mr. Patteson's Motisa ax negatived without a division. The House then divided on the previous question. For the previous Question : Ayes - - - 14 Noes - - 193 MAJORITY AGAINST NI isisTrßs 9th The Committee was then appointed for Friday next.' Adjoarned at Half past One, limit Monday we, LONDON: SATURDAY, JANUARY 26. r- Wed" /• " ementmoothen" so 4 0-devoittly twine w s udt thee Mr/Led by the division of Itrt sighs. to which Mr. Pestcsl'A 6 unexpectedly found himself in a hliottrity. 4lrendy are the " rots beginning to ran," as sailer' Morro whoa a isletslake:to.' Mr. Haeissin Courier, Wilt consuln d the political banoneser, yecterday dtiowerri some merit in Mr. Posisox av's Sprerh, of *hien he thipbo highly. as ti , conceive that " it fully entitles him to hr its Leaner of the Partgi not only in tlutt House, bee of 04 " !'arty in both Houser." rl'he decaying Post this inonit{ " congratulates the Public on the croft/gin{ prospeit C'at '" now par rots itself of strict and-impartial" jestieebei.4 readeroo, unit is certainly changing; NEW 1441/liNst !WWII ANcE Comes,:e.—The Mendell Oessiemen whoclatodewilsely projected this monort#, et commenced their proceedings by offering Shama tattoo imlividottl, otiose interests, as hlemhect of Liu) d't Colke' lbedie, most abvintolv be materially injured by such no mir Many /Wilms have thus flee., entrapped—co" Ot he ipg yes. ere they were aware of the coosetplool Ar t_ ,p A Mos.& of Llisd's Coffee-Meese begs to moot, Ibett the colvlwt of Those himober% who have thins 'moor derittoby jetp themselves to the promotion of a project,olorli, if roccedsful,l must deprive some baudred ledividush el l 1 1144 *W:ism-At nnt ita (Nett well worthy of a voted c l "' sureof the 114aejive op a y. At till remits, nw Gendnito. who is n Subecrilser to this Asp COnspaoy, ran letss. tot preetimptioo t deeni himself a M toe** to continue 3 )le2r bey at Yin Cateerbeuse, . A Requisition has been signed for the purpose of rifling s bobby artiste of tha fitAettan of Weslosiisier, to coo-Wei the propriety of a r.ii41,,,,..tbe Ictoct, and ai n u therip lot noose of Commits, tot the o s , stet of fl.eform ia the W e of she fiepresenianno of the vie in Perlin. Amt. irrheranemear Louden; 1 1 1,.0 It.LI 444 eirlibited Ft of SI I