The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-06-17 00:00:00

THE .STATESMAM want--eanothet had exported a quantity of Ceffin fur: eiture, When in fact the inhabitants had not en idea of burying their dead with furniturettnother sent sedan chairs which they did not Want. But the fact " was, the increasing trade to that part was profitable. The Honourable Gentleman was a little wrong in his caloulation of the exports of iron from Birmingham. The witnesses had stated that the whole amount of the exports of that article from all parts of the coun try was not more than 740,0001. so that in fact' hen be stated 1,200,0001 at the share of Birmingham, he overstepped the mark, and either the witnesses most be right, or the Custom-house wrong. If. the Witnesses were right, then it followed of course that the exports-were more than the returns made by the Custom-hires& 'With respect to the maritime riglite of the country, the Honourable Gentleman had been liberal is admitting those rights,, but that admission, , Was tendered merely for' he purpose of inducing the Home to give up the Orders in Council. Bet these orders were not farther persevered toe. the sake of maintaining. those rights as against America, bat against France. As to the commerce frith America, the truth was, Is the lion: Gentleman stated, that they had manufactures of their own, and this country was dec.sivetl, if much was expected.- The Hon. Gentleman had tithed of victories at Tale. I tern and Corunna, bat what had- those sictories te do with the trade to America. If the repeal of the Orders in Cannel) wis agreed to, then, indeed, the i victory spoken of rroald main with France. The Right Mtn. pentlirlissi then proceeded to detail the evidence as it bore in fivour of the system. A great deal of it was norpfinted, and for that reason he had been anxious for delaying the consideration. The petitioners were prepared; they had arranged their rise methndically, which facilitated it. They had printed and circulated new evidence. Bat he had not been able to reed the immense volume so as to fize4 itr contents. Under the first head of cowgirl-- eel arrangements stood iron ; and in respect to the state of the men employed in that manufacture, he had no doubt there were numbers out of employ, and if the measure was repealed, they would experience immediate relief. He assured the House, that if re sistance was held out to the repeal—that resistance proceeded from the strong sense of duty which he en tertained. lie could have no other view, for be I should not have much longer the management of the Board of Trade. Ile was firmly perseaded, that if the trade was opened, its continuance could- not be ensured. The next head wet that of nails ; and here there was a contrariety of evidence; for one witnes‘ stated, that the warehouses of Liverpool well when anot Irer (M r. liornley) declared they were not full. A Mr. Fog stated, that Ike trade to America acceded the whole of the trade to the other parts:l that statement he (Mr. R.) much doubted—for the' iron exported to America was about' one-sixth, or 700,0001.; whereas, in fact, the whole of the ex. i ports in that article amounted to two millions. Ile I contended that the exports from the Continent rival.l led our manufactures, and were sold at a cheaper rate. This information he drew from various parte of the evidence; He defended the conduct of the I witness alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman, as has.- ing spoken disrespectfully of the labouring mane facturers. All that the witness meant was, that the di-trrm was os so great as was apprehended.— With respect to the pottery, the number of crates exported within the last year, amounted to twenty. three thousand more than in the four preceding years, and the decrease which existed pteviously to that period, arose from the non-importation to bo la:A, in oonsequence of the nii , constroction of an Act of Parliament, by which a duty was claimed up on the article. If the Orders in Council were re pealed, end the Berlin and Milan Decrees left to stand, America would have the otlvantage of the car. iying trade to.the North of Europe, and France would be enabled to export her Iron-work, her linen, silks, cloth, &r. and to bring back in return the raw materials, a eirconistatice, which would con.: duce strongly to assist her in rivalling our manufac. tue.s. We should in fact - by such a step assist to the utmost of our power in giving complete effect to the measures and the policy of France. But the efficacy of the Orders in Council was to .be seen, note iths/anding all representations to the contrary, in their practical effects upon the commerce of the enemy. It was a fact which could aot•be denied, that the exports from France to America had de. creased nine millions from the year 1803 to 1811.— In the Canada trade, it appeart4 upon the erie deuce of Sir Alexander M'Kenzie, that the ton-i tinge of ships in 1804 amounted to 33,0001. and in 1811 to 116,0001. lie then went into a minute re. capitulation and comparison of the evidence, from which he inferred that the Mediterranean trade was greatly improved, that the south American trade was also improring, and that the injury supposed to have been experienced in this lattpr branch, arose merely, and applied exclusively' to specelatire adventurers, who were obliged to well off immediately, at a loss. As to the shipping interests, which formed so &eat an object in the consideration of this questien, be , was convinced that if the Orders-in Council were to be repealed to-morrow, they would not have one ship more afloat than they had at present, but on the contrary ; for the immediate tendency and operation of the repeal would be, to throw one-third or one fourth of our carrying trade into the hands of Ame rica. The result, therefore, of all the facts which he had been able to collect, was, that with the exception of that burst of trade to South Ame- Ara, which took. place in 1809, and 1810, the shipping interests were never so prosperous as now. Four-fifths of the trade of Glasgow were in favour of the Orders in Council. It had been stated by one of the witnesses, that the shipping of Liverpool, a part supposed to suffer peculiarly under the exist ing eystem, was fully employed; -and upon a fair view of the matter, that the number of shipping had been doubled in the course of the last twelve years. The evidence bore him oat in stating, that . the trade to the South of Europe had increased in a propor tion to compensate for what bad been lost in the North since the adoption of those measures, so that, on a fair balauce, the general comme r ce of the coun try had suffered nothing, He had already stated that four-fifths of the merchants of Glasgow were in favour of the Orders an Coencil. To this be would add, that a great pail of the trading interests of Liverpool supported the same, that Bristol was unauimoga is * apprt*Gon of the policy by which they were dictated,' and that a large portion of the merchants of London maintained the same Opinion. Mr. Glennie, of the how of Chenille and Co. and another, were the only Witnesses from that quar ter who gave evidence agaiastlhe Orders in Council ; and it was to be observed, that that House bad some . American Agencies. which might have imperceptibly : Influenced their judgment. In-addition to the bodies , he had already enumerated, heethonld not neglect, to 1 state that the whole body of the Shipping interest were against the repeal. Upon the subject of the ' mistakes in the granting of Licences, imputed to the Board of Trade, he should content himself with barely stating, that one error had occurred in the I space of five years, and that tlie Board had manifest- I ed every disposition and anxiety to correct it. Upon the whole, he could assert, that if he felt that the repeal of the Orders in Council would be a benefit to the country, there was no man !ising who would I , e mere willing In support it. But, being impressed 'with the opposite conviction, he felt it his duty to resist the attempt. ,s Mr. BARING began by observing, that though the present subject was one of the most important That bad ever come before thew, yet from the little disposition which many Members bad shown to at tend to the question, he feared that what he should say upon it would hardly meetwith m u ch a tte n tio n . The question had been amply discussed in the eery able speech of his Hon. and Leagued Friend, which a ppetereeto Mm alntbst ottittfailled by anyhd had ever heard id that House.' Yet still a great deal of new and untouched ground was :eft for discussion. The first consideration which struck him was, theta de- i gree of 'distrees was now experienced among the Ma- nufacturers of this country, which no man could pretend to disguise, and which was unpreccdcated in magnitude and severity. Wes this distress, or was it not, attributable to the Orders in Council ? If it was, the next question wcull be, whether any bene fits had arisen from these measures, I%ltich compen sated for the distresses which were experienced. —The Right Honourable Gentleman Lad ac-- knowledged, what indeed could not be denied, that our manufacturers were in a very distressed si tuation : and the point which he (Mr. B.) had now "to arguefewas, that these distresses were connected with the Orders ia Cou ncil as their cause. If he failed in shewing this connection, then he should not be justified in supporting their repeal. As the first link of connection, he should spew that the dis tresses of the manufacturers originated in the want of American• intercourse ; and it would hadily be admitted, that the shutting of this intercourse wns caused by our commercial Decrees. 'I he Right Hon. Gentleman had complained that the manufacturing workmen had been industriously taught to believe that their distresses, proceeded from the Orders in Couttcil, and that their minds were thus heated 1 against their on n Government. But the master mat: nufacturers who appeared at the Bar of the House were vc;y l'ar trent being ignorant or uninformed men. On the contrary, they were most of them in a very large way of business, employing at an are rage 500 people each ; and they nod displayed a de gree of general information, which must have excited both surprise and satisfaction, and whica was accom panied with the most minute knowledge of their own branches of r ,iufacture. The u,.iform re preseetati.:n of these eighty individuals examined at the lite., from Birmingham, Sheffield, Man che ter, Leeds, &c. was, that all their workmen were in a state of unexampled distress. Wha( was the proportion of the manufactures which they had been ie the habit of sent!i4 to Ame 1 rica, as compared with what they produced for other markets ? It appeared, that from one-tnird to one-half. and even two-thirds of the whole trade of the places he had enumerated was cOriveed to tho American market. This, they stated; had en tirely rea4etl, and,the stoppage of the American de- mand had of coursegreatly,injured the home market. These witnesses had also told us of the immense stocks which they had aceumulatede and of the num ber of hands_which they had been obliged to turn off; • with this most important addition, that they wily ' waited the decision of the House on the present question to determine, whether they sheet() dismiss or retain the remainder. [Hear, hear I Oa the deterinination of the house that night, depended the discharge or employment of many thousand work ' men. This afforded ample ground for serious deli -1 beratioo ; and the benefits arising from the Orders in entail should be clearly understood, before their i:untinuance was resolved upon, which could not fail to be attended with such increasing hardships.— From a variety of information which he had received from the manufacturing districts, he was justified in saying, that if the House did not come to a favour able decision, it would be the duty of Government to take the strongest pieeautions for preserving the 1 peace is many of those districts which hitherto had not been the seat of disturbance, and where the workmen had been kept in good kumout by the judicious ma. nagement of the masters, and the hopes which they held out of an alteration for the better. It was quite evi dent that thetlistressed districts had, in general, been the most disturbed. In the West of England,where the I clothing manufacture did mot seem to be affected, 1 there had been no disturbance. Neither had there been.any disposition to disorder in the metropolis, because it was not the seat of manufactures, and the I great mass of the labouring classes had therein to lerable employment. Ile was then entitled to ay, that the disturbances were connected with the dis tresses of the manufacturers, and that the distresses originated in the want of the American market. -' The necessity of an armed force in the centre of the country,—the existence of a set of disaffected per sons in the very heart of our manufacturing districts s--all these circumstances should form the strongest induceMent with Government to give this most im portant question their serious consideration. It was quite evident that the witnesses examined at the bar were convinced, that the opening of the American Itrade would restore employment to their workmen; in fact, they held all other channels of commerce quite 1 cheap in comparison of that of which they. taulbeea deprived. The American trade had every feature that could make it valuable to a manufacturing nation. It was a market constantly increasing, affording safe and 1 quick Wares; and Ohne it furnished the raw ma terials, it took back the manufactured articles in return. Undoubtedly the manufacturing interests of this country were most interested is this market. Thashipping and the thercandleintere'sts had no such hasty discussiod t question Mtn which nee More * immediate tOtineetion with it; but he would assert, vital uever came before the consideration of pa r ries that thelate petition, in favour of the orders in Coun- ment. In the first place, then, he had to deprecate cil, did not express the sense of the great body of the the subMittieg l te it vote of Parliament a question merchants of London. As to Mr. Glesufre, he was • which invofred the deepest interest of our Etapire, es Berry that the Right lion. Gent, had affected to repre- i connected with our marieme riehts, while neenciat ion, sent that respectable merchant, as having a strong I were pending between our Governtnent and that of personal interest in the connection with America. It i another iountry, Such cbnduct was loans lets than *as true he bad acted as agent for the American navy, I an attempt to dictate to the Executive ; and nothing, bet probably had not cleared o ne h un d re d pou n d s he would co ntend, could he mere Abhorrent front the , by his. transactions in that capacity. The great power and practice of Parliament, IVhen he stated intint insisted bison by the Gentlemen opposite, was, this, he considered that he gate a sufficient answer to thdtif the ports of France were 'open, she would i the Hon. Gentleman who had enquired why toe cur- se out h s e u r p m pl a y n uf of ac ra tu w res m , a a nd teri r a e i cee . iv it in w etu as r ,fo r r n i a n n . i , res Thrnd, production alluded t was corr n e o s t pn p n lac de e n t e l e o t f could le thavetable. •stance, said, that Cuba would send her sugars to I tended only to the embar ra s smen t o f the natioesl France, and receive in'return her manufactures. It I couneils. As to the general question, he was net was not certainly very liberal to foun t ! an y s ystem o f !Incli ne d t o d eny t h at the Hurl . Gentlemen oar's on the distress of an ally's trade, and in limine! ant tt grave Case of nationaloSisttesslri had de from sing ma the he begged to protest against it; but by the evidence ' depression of several branches of our trade; he of even an Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. ! would even admit, that* the evidence went to prove Marryaft), did it appear that our Orders in Conn •il I that those branches of trade were likoly to sutler still were efficacious' in preventing France from sending !greater depression, if the Orders in Council should out het manufactures even to Calta ? By his evidence I not be re p ealed ; but When he admitted this ' he would it appeared, that three cargoes of Continental silks not have th e H ouse consider that he consented to the and linens had been sent net there in 1809, while we proposition that we were so deplorably distressed ns sent but one. The French in fact brought out silks to have 'stud reason for eontemplatine the decay and so cheaply during the operation of the Orderi in ' destruction of our commerce. The distress was par- Council, that our's had no chance of being sold. .It tial; and here he must say of the Gentlemen with , was therefore evident, that our commereo toe time whom he had s commonicated on the Wits& of thd part df the world could not be rendered worse hen* Orders in Council, and who were amongst the suffer• it was under these Orders by any commercial regttla. 1 ers from their operation, that no persons could look tion whatever. The Hon. Gentleman th'n contend- to them with a more liberal feeling for the general in: eel, that it was absurd for us to fear a rivalry in ma- terests of their cou try, or world entertain a more die+ nufactures from France. Those who were examined , . passionate consideration of them. It was argued that as to this point answered, that If there was free trade ' if we repealed the Orders in Council, we should hate they would not lie afraid of a rivalry in any country! the American market in exchange for that teseel.— in the world. Thus,. thee, It was- certain, that as-to l Ile did not think it fair for America to extort seek Cuba, the -Brazils, and our 'Americitn• (rides,' the ten abrogation from es, when Owe considered that our Orders in Councili: instead of. heing.itseful.,';*were el4commercial regelations,wefe comnenced in retaliation together mischievous.• With respectto .the esitteneelegainet theellesesotic sesiem of ,Frence, and that such on the Other side; there was hothiog asked hilt Ogg- ; retaliation iushtt;hive been rither.aSiisted than op. tions of opinion; Mr. Finley, of Glasgow and the . posed hybet. e s h ould, ' indeed , be asitamed to 1 11 other Gentlemen who were examined on the other avow, theX Of. s riters in Council were ever a matter side, spoke even .as far as the y. , eetated facts, against of mere cimetiertial'pofiCy. They were not. They the Orders. They admitted, that a considerable de- . sprung from tk.' ,rittap4e Orotiposition to Ira nee l I x pression of trade had taken place, and on the whole . and' ratittg)Ser . in. tlps system of misrule, which it seemed as if the Government had been merely she endetiioureck Atte It i. ,th rough Europe. They l b 'idi . looking out for two or three stout fellows to make were iteenik aictemillof s pinet by the very means speeches and. give opinions.—Picor /I—There' Was ' which, she herself riesS brought into action. And another point to which he would call the-attention of whe Gould say tha"in thilpotnt,theyhad been Una the Rouse. In consequence of the sncpension of oar `. successful ?--:-(ffeer,lir —We would contend for intercourse with America; it was stated in the esi.. it, that no country in thas e stoeld wits ever more corn. dents that a particular branch of our trade e-t he cotton mercially depressed than If ratice had beenby the ow+ trade—had suffered materially, and that if the sus pen- ration of these very.Orde; in enuncil —Weer , hear 1 sion continued for three years more, it never could be from both side* of the Iffiuse.)—Fresin the French renewed. It never should be forgotten that our own 'documents . themselves thiefact appeared. The mull, trade originally owed much to the bigotry &other Goo .internal consumption of France, with her peptises . vernments, and that we were in a manner forced into a tion of 36 minim's, added to her exports, was only manufacturing country by the repeal of the &Hai of 54, whilst our exports alone sere 60 millions. Nantes. A perseverance in our present system would Never, therefore, .would he cease to mittens); evil inevitably d 6 the same to America. It was said by the the system of his late itight Hon. Friend did not ode Nadi Lord opposite, on a former night, that the s ginate as much its wisdom as in justice. Oa the rather Orders in Council were net the only obstacle to re- hand, • amidst all our strueeles, did not out' country conciliation with America. If the Noble Lord . exhibit a picture, not of commercial delay, bet of ine could shew that America had higher .pretensions— creasing pt °write I Was it not the picture ofa Coun , that she aimed at the destruction of oar maritime try ris'ne in all the features of wealth,and growiti s eits rights, fee tastance—he for ant; green we vittrifelferz" proupolty f Could not even the didicutties *inch ings might be, would not compromise the honour or w' now complained of he referred to tae unnatural the interests of his country ; but the fact was other- growth of that prosperity in a particular year 1 NVith wise. The repeal of the Orders in Council was the the exception of our trade to America, had lint All only obstacle to conciliation, and this appeared from the branches of our commerce glee. on in an accents' , unquestionable documents. The American Govern- lilting ratio? `lleac!] Even to the Gouthemt of mart and our's did not differ on the principle of , Europe, notwittistauding all the efforts of the great _ blockade ; for we never supported the principle of a scourge of mankind, had not our commerce !hayed , mere paper blockade, and we stated thii distinctly in the struggle? Toe exports to Europe in the tit. , mr Ambassador to Mr. Monroe. He was sorry three years subsequent to the Orders in Council, not 'o see an 1100. Getrieman (Mr. Stephen) in his , were superior by six millions to the exports of the place, who used 'o dwell so much on this topic, he. : three preceding years. No Country had ever studied ca, se he Weld ho glad to set him right on it by the , more than this had done the interests of neutral!, correspostilence between the two Governments. So ! and certainly every thing in our power had been far indeed was America from differing with us on tried to preserve the friendship of America.. "Hear, this pint, that Mr. Monroe said, Did not America ; hear!] But the enemy had said se l en. to should rePeatedly declare, that she easiest only for the re- , have commerce with us. We had justly retureel on peal of oor Orders is Council ?" After sach a de- , the enemy, and declared, that no people, should cfaratioass this of hsr Ambassador, could any person I have commerce with him but through the medium of sty that there was any other impediment to an agree- I England. We had, therefore, resorted to a strict ment except those Orders? All America wanted was a blockade of all his p.• -is ; and when he issued his satisfactory assurance that our Orders were at as end.: Berli.. -el Milan Dees et , we bed- recourse to it was unfair, therefore, to state, that there *as any , the Orders in Council, as a measuts of just and oecere material question which involved the consideration l vary retaliation. Ile wished lo say a few words on the of our maritime rights of search, of blockade, &c. I subject of liceuces,ngainst which so much clamour had i —[/pear !]—From the Papers to which he alluded, at various times been made; and unless the House these facts were clear ; and he was only astonished, I was dispcsed to relinquish at least four-fifths of the when they were so satisfactory, that the Noble Lord whole trade of the country, it must give its approbae I • l should have resisted their production before the lieu to that system; for by these we had for a length ' House. In a few days, however, he should move iof time compelled France and the other parts of the- them to be printed, to which he hoped the Noble ; Continent connected with, and dependent on her, to Lord would have then no objection. Before he sat' take our manufactures to a vast amount, and in do• down,. there was another point on which he wished lug this we hail never infringed on the rights of nett. to say a few words, and that was the ex pence to which : trals, though he was ready to allow that. they Iwe were put by the existence of the Orders ht - Coone I could not derive equal advantages from it. . ,11, ha y cll. He would venture to say, that unless they were * however, been repeatedly stated to America s , that repealed, our Commissary-General in • Portugal I we were at any time ready to exclude ottr own • could not lie in future su ffi ciently supplied. By our I commerce, if she-would make a common cause-with. inability to send any thing to America in return for ( us, and keep up a atria blockade against France. — her supplies, a loss of two millions a-year was suf. If she would not, she was told decidedly. that we: fered from the state of the exchange. We had, then, must rigidly resort to a system of retaliation iu order the additional espence of military prepamtions in all ' to prevent the enemy from carrying into effect. Ms our northern Colonies; and it was possible, even as said open and avowed design of ruining this country.-- by his Hon. Friend, that an additional force would he Ile now felt anxious to call the attention of theft oum wanted from Portugal for the defence of Canada.-; to thestatd of the relations between this countrrand. This might be found necessary ; but if America . America, since the period in which the restriction, should go to war seriously against us, in his opinion, • had been taken off from the Prince Regent. .Wjth. we could not retain Canada th}ee months. On the , respect to the view the present Ministers had taken of whote, he thought, that by our Orders in Council we . that question, he could only my, that till within grasped at a shadow, whilst we lost the most substame, these few days they had never thought themselves ens. tial commercial advantages. ~titled toastas a Government ; and when they came Lord CAS'I'LEREAGH began by stating, that no stn look at the Decree which was lately published, person could rise to speak on the present rnnst im- t though it Ore date a twelvemonth before, they could portant subject with more anxiety than he did : and ; not but entertain doubts vrhethee that Decree had that he should give his reasons for votingngainet the I not been set aside by toe sweeping declaration of the Address with the most sanguine hope of their induc- .' Duke of Bassano made since that time. He thought ing the House.to coincide with him in the vieve which 'ft was highly desirable that restrictive measures out he should take of the subject. In evening this ques- i each side should beanspended, and an attempt made lion he must, however, lament with his Right Hon.! to try if France could not be brought to consent that Friend, that so little an interval had taken place be- ! the ancient mode of carrying on commerce should tween the examination of ' the evidence, and the Ibe restored. lie thought with the ffon. and Learned ~.,. solemn Parliamentary consideration of the /Object ,O;entleman who brought forward the motion, that it ; which was now so prematurely forced forward. 'This would be wrong -to notice any irritative measures was the more to he lamented, as the evidence went to which had been lately adopted by America, as that . such a great extent. He Ira, sorry that the. Honour- ;Gold by no means be productive of benefit, but might able Gentleman, even for the sake of his - own cha. tend to widen the breach subsisting between the two racter, should have so'much departed frem all Par- countries. if the plan he proposed should take place, liamentarif practice s and should have premed to a and the putts' intercourse be motored ) it would IWO aC I I a "" •• ; 4 . ; t. . t ' .1 :61 '• 0 ', . ! , i ~ 1