The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-05-26 00:00:00

preserve from injury those individuals whose intes rests might be endangered by the regulations of the Court. Colonel TAYLOR appealed to the candour and 1 good sense of the House, if it was likely he should have made his motion had the statement of his lion. Friend been made before. All he had ask ed, and all he wanted, was that the subject shrink) be fairly taken into consideration, and proper measures taken to remedy the evils of which he complained. He had no objection, under such Circumstances, to withdraw hit motion.; but he wished it to be understood that he did not with: draw it from an impression that that.which he had urged was improper. On the contrary, feeling as, he slid, that his arguments stood on firm grounds ; that they were founded 4n.justice aiui in reason, unless an efficient remedy were shortly applied, be would certainly again bring the subject before the House early in the 'ensuing Session.. The motion was then withdrawn ,.:.,;,; cATtimic ctutpts. 1 Mr. PARNELL moved that the Order or the Day for resuming the debate on the Catholic Claims should be read. Sir W. SCOTT, .complying with ihe wishes of his constituents, opposed the Petition. The principle of which they complained had been act. ed upon in the most -enlightened times, awl had at the most prospereus periods been recognised by our Constitution. The Right Hoe. Gentleman had admitted iii his speech, that if a French army should approach Ireland, the danger in conse. quence of the Catholics not having conceded the Veto might be tremendously great. The 'Went on which we acted was therefore justified by pro. dence. In another part of his speech the Right . Honourable Gentleman had spoken loosely of She religious contests which distinguished the' History of Ireland. On this grounehe felt a reluctance to tread, lest it should lead to an unpleasant dis cussion ; but he wished to ask if the Right Hon. Gentleman was prepared to say, that all the cala. mitie; which had fallen on tbetilLfated country were the results of .Protestaint Aggression ? Both sides of the question ought to be well considered ; for it wac not fair that ail shuidd be . forgotten on the one side, and all on.tbe other be- recorded in marble anti in, • Orass. : !tiThis Petitions ' presented were copched in the eamm : unqualified terms a. : formerly. There were no conditions proposed,- no reserves, no -qualifications expressed. lie thought the Rightlioo. , Genslenian ought to have stated to thg House what 'had so much illumined him ou the inbject, as he, made qualifications to which he. would not agree. before. The arguments made use of were nearly the same as those ad., Iran* when the subject was brought forward formerly. Theilifference between the present si tuation of, the Pope and that in which he stood at that time was .this he ssas then But willing slave of France. Now he is in, the. tyranre &utak— . Under such circutostanres wore, they, to gocieto3 Committee onthe subject r fitst,Assoniing,thpt Otis prayer was to be Araiited i , ,aed„.then to consider, what securities , shouldobe-giatite.-.-The B.ll4 l 4 2l Acies Gentleman had, in the coorau,alhis:Weech, jwuj posed one specific securie - dtioacitic mmassatios‘ But where was .thwisocuri,ty, that tile Catholics would agreelo give thiasecuaty2. The Potitions • said nothing about it ; there waa.no,ellusion made to it in the motion submitted ,to Um house; they had nothing for it, except the ,cuniecture the Right Honourable Gentleman had , thromoi opt- in the course of his argument, -It did nut tallow from that the Petitioners would consent to .its — The Right honourable Gentleman bad, is the same manner, thrown out the-notion of the Veto, in the course of his argument, on a former occa. sloe, and what had been the result of that ?• Why * this—that the idea of a Veto had been rejected by the Catholic Body with abhorrence and disgust,... What better fate had this proposition to expect ? It was, in truth, infinitely less probable that this should be accepted than that the Yet° should he accepted. He should be glad to know precisely what was meant by this domestic nismination Wasit an appointment by the Bishops, by the eclat, or by the lay communion? if it was to be an ap. pointment by the lay cioninuuiim, he would ask, whether (his was not a clear departure from the doctrines of the Church of Rome ? (l/ear, hatr !) As to the rejection of the Veto, lie car. • taitdy respected that proceeding as the result of a conscientious regard to the - tenets of the Roman Catholic Church. But when the Veto had been rejected on that ground, o hat, possible reason could there be to believe that this proposition 'would be accepted, which was a much wider de partere from the doctrines of the Roman Catholic. Church ? The Veto merely vested a negative in the hands of the King, leaving the chief part of the power in the hands of the Pope ; but this would be shoving the Pontiff entirely out of the, business. It was a complete siolatron of the Ca tholic Unity, and in fi nitely more inconsistent with the' dogmas of ,the itomair Catholic. persuasion than the Veto. That there might be persons atnong.the Roman Catholics, ready . to agree, le, these expedients, for Mesa-lie of conciliation, woe very possible. There were, in all persuasioes some who held their tenets so loosely, liberally, he believed was the modern term, that it was 41p• most iticoinprehensilile how they ouuld really ems rider themselves as belonging to that persuasion to which they professed to adhere. Many of thole might be,very respectable people. But such men could not be regarded as the guides and the lights •of the Roman Catholic Church, and their exam. ple would not be followed by others. This pro position was utterly inconsistent with the doctrines of the Church, as he had found them stated- by their lawyers and theologians. Ho their read :sonic passages from Dr. Milner l _to sheW, .that awn: could be no reasonable,linpes that the propositions would be accepted by thu great body of the (.4- tholics, These passages represented theappoitile ment of - Prelates by the Pope, *eau OSCAtiiiiiß4ei of the celissiastieal Government of the , Hoist Church ; that some p e rs o ns s e em to thi th4t.soy other more expedient mode might adopted ; but that they might as well oraca, b e am from the sun as du away may ecclesi astical right of the, Church. How then was it possible fur the Roma Catholics to agree to this? - • •If any man could, Without such a proposition, what could t ass Roman Catholic or as an appeared to him that a Roman Ca holding . ther,doctriaes •of his. clut agree' : to r doeskin Btil 06041 cuitsent, he could. not • font itr and •Pieister Weald 'Consent,. .tiff must still have investiture and confirmation ; and therefo * re the appoititMents anicl - not be cent. pleted without his coadent. But eves atilie sheikh consent, he must in thiii:and other things., proceed : , as his gaoler chose. Weald that mien: 8 4T this, wheu . the very. object •was staled . to'.lto4 to price Bonaparte of • whatever influence be XVIII otherwise have ?• As the Pope could only •;lietti coed ,to confirmation and investiture witly:thO consent of Bonaparte, this proposition wts one for transferring that Veto to - Bona. parts which. the Catholics of Ireland had de nied to. their lawful Sovereign. Ho saw no way in which this proposition could be earriedinto effeet. tut supposing that could be carried into effect, which the:Right Honourable Gentleman propoeed only se expedient for want of something better; suppnic it were to be acceded to on the one hand iu opposition ta thedoetrines of their own church; Was .it stosopable that a Non.Catholie Goxern 'tient should accept of it? They (the Protestants) thought they had cleared away from their religion the dross of Tuder ages, cud the .influence of the. Clergy over the laity was far from being SO extent sive as that of the Roman Catholic Clergy. The influence of the higher order of their Clergy, without meaning any thing offensive to them, was. of a different kind (ruin that of the pasture of 'ephemeral sects which existed today and were gone to.morrow. The prelates were more polite:- fel, inasmuch a's they had nut only a mortrexten. , sive, but star more regular and permanent Wain. vice. The Right. Honourable Gentleman epp'64: . 'site might say, that this was merely a spiritual power. 'this was true; ' but after what the Right Honourable. Gentleman himself bad admitted, ,he mast he aware that spiritual power right be• used as an engine to . promote temporal ititereste, and improper views of .ambition. The • security was unattainable ;but even, if it could be attained, the Houk) could hardly be •preparedivere,ept of 04 those grOtinds he gave the, oiotiop bis.decided negative. at could Co'mtuittee. 40 . ! fit . took thPec urity pcoposed byttheskliigke Mort able letstleositu eihrpe ) ,,tbey.coeldhase no as ,surance that it would hu. allowed ; N ajiff, even if it shotild he agree? zo;*it would onkthe kransferriug that reto to i, whic.h.tteg peso , refusal to ilieSiivereign of thosc A iogdoms.... • Si NErigoitT i m p, We claim of the Catlin - tics had been ler "a considerable time. evaded, tiirPllo tcrulins i wiajeg :twin the t• (imitation Grath,.wlitch had at length bocit abandoned, ur at le.tst sit Ifered .to, k jer.atimte•iptw•oblivion. The ground lit6Y.hatt,iprtoscd the wishes. of , Ca i tliolitafgaiwt*geostmetion of the, Coro. n,ttlin,Parti foond perfectly untenable, they tigil i ctmcii,*another,.aed ,now ,ohjeoted • to going nap a .I..ornf-ittee on the subject. And why ? fiitca,use it IT.. aaid,, that Oat suggested by his unattainable. De c.:ll4.4lst* wished fur•could nut be attained, th'ey refund to go tutu.a Committee to consider if Obey, coulffafford the suffering Catholics redress by any., other ineans. They stated their claims to those rights which they,,thought ought to be re stored to them,, They asked hut for what had been taken away from Mete, and to which they con ceived their loyalty. and their general good conduct gave them a claim. It should be recollected, that that of which they complained teas not imp - osed till long after they had been, uoder a Protestant Government. It was impolitic, to-deny those rights they claimed, as we could !savants tofety but in embodying the whole nation as one • man in the mighty cause in which we were engaged. Without those rights, they could not embark.us heartily in the cause as they otherwise , would.•if the road to preferment and to glory were thrown open to them. The soldier could not be so . animated when pre. eluded from rising above a certain rank in the ar. my, as when it was : possible for his rowed' to. raise him to the rank of a General,. and enable him to emulate a Marlborough's fame. Blake and O'Donnell, who had fought so gloriously in the cause of Spain, were Catholics. We were ready to admire their talents, and do justice to their va lour. Why then did wa.shut thwae.vut front glory in their own country, of tfliconeteAnld not suf r ficiently, express pur admirotior ,while they Were fighting in another Why Welfare, eihulica , to be .so muck, suspected of being attiched.,to the to. terests of frasice.? In various. parts.of • catholicshad been found iii arms against. seance, laud fighting with as much ardour as could possibly animate Protestants in the cause. Why then was Ca tholic valour doomed to pine nottneteed, unre ward. ed in ear arlitylen nst.groundkesistinl, for believing Gatholl ticafi ected tor/wilt franca.? lie would now proceed to anOtlier,,,..oo o -Ce• When o Catlto4c quafi ed hiegoif l iog the Bar; why was hg there too denjed i ptonsotkon ? Could as Catholic liedaolgerons as Kistg'ii..Contr,el ? ,could, he he dangerope as Ring,'s Serjettit..t .Sorely. not. The Barenct then proceeded: i t° isiottiee why I cause had been given for 4 4644R.,,qmP1410, hie bad epnie,over froin thq•arotp iu,:s3gily . ,l, Why, ce.roke.Catholie.Clergymen refused i arcess to the, Coiolio soldiers there!? If they "recap:tested 444' whet could be expected from -.then; lint. languid, compliance and passive pbedietiCe3 Give the Ca. (ldic the samnendopragenient, my). hi; will cm. lark an. the cease, with the samclaplpar as the Pro lettaut. But ondes all these disfantragiggeircum. stances, they . had• embarked beartily..in the cause. We had been obliged to acknowledge it fypeetydly ,•over anit.river deserved . well. • 'rho ; syatem puratte4 sitemtal tohe 0101440 ren s PiAnianste &Om, :deter, Acs , ntevetiti .their deacrs,iog better. , This. was t nciF we, *tit; Lusintosucli',4 0011 length . 6 4T. 01 1, 49 , Pr e V e ' 10eir. taco/ming Maori& or. Sub.lrhegiffs., yho ant J t kew,. twio seyeitply on the Catholics.. k, wyrl tgNe titath444 4l Y in some Inteatire tenspered br _the growling,Oboraiity of the Protestants'. in. ,Ire-; laud; bat , he contended, that the "Ligisiature onght not to suffer so large a potato oI the ,Peo. • • • . _ . . . 7777 1 . 7,11TII R1 / 41 ,010 4 , ° • , st -- - -e— e/ toleration, Its be so far depots 1C l* oe of the testant Government. lie that had the stronger reasons I principle there could be no abjer l kon 40 ititlaims. It was remembered what He assured the House that it watt of the intese to them at tite ,P e ittoiti.s e tion of the Clergy to run before the Galore.. lieldetut to jhe Catholics - were 'tient In this messuee ; they did not at all ape boundftareAment to .re. pear jealeos of the potter of the State, nor cone lore thiW Oise' , almost as sitter it te'lsoincons e istent with the tenets of their , compelled to do so by a Church. • This circumstance was but a small written bond." Mr. put said e t that time te • ( We branch of thd • intended system ; the detail would 'ere a diiided anddistracted . people, *Weakened and ' not be entered into until it had been wholly ape Ilishiniltelieittiti diateesionte kwhich under existing proved of by the -Government, and by his Mai _circumstances must be interminable; ets_ long as jesty, anO brought forward _ln . its proper shape; one councils ere separate, .prudeuce (wrist admit Whatever communication there might be with the that which, united, generosity emighf cremate." Scold' Rome, it shook! be made with the know.; . passe.d under its eye; Two years after that period , .10,r. - Pitt, when feat . ledge of: Government, and ling office, had stated it to be his opinion, that 'an i in order that .every Improver attempt might be extension of the rights of Protestants to Catholics prevented. The priivisioas of the arrangement were was as innocent and safe after the Union, as it nut new, or foreign, or inconsistent; other some would have been dangerous before. It had been had been similarly endowed ; in Ireland, the dish Said, why did not Cat olics come forwardto make . senters had received endowment, which tended inch and such concessions ? It was not for them, to the increase of that body. However, he did nut to do so; bat it was fur us to state to them under quite , approve of the measure. The arrangetneet what restrictions we were willing to afford the intended was of a similar nature to that Midi privileges they desired. It was impossible to think with respect to the Roman Catholic Clergy of BO same zeal could be felt in the common cause Scotland, which extended to the endowment of *along men between whom smelt a disparity of ins, schools, and for which the Senof Rome expressed forest existed. That enthusiasm in the cause of his great gratitude . and approbation. The Pope of country which is felt by him wit() shares its priti- that day was not jealous; he knew that great pa v e leg-es, could not be expected from men who felt' of the Spiritual was necessarily interwoven with they were not Complete sharers in them.. 4;40s net , the -*Temporal GOiertiment.* The Catholics of in human nature. To give, all an equal interest Ireland are at•prreleti tin a greater dependence on in the preservation of the country,, its privilegtet ette - Ver Rome than qtly other Catholic country % should he alike open. to all. It had been 'aid Ca-. The . on. Baronet (Sir S. C. Hippesley) stated , tholic Emancipation was not dmired by the great that all. Irelend .except six dioceses received the ' body of the Irish people, as the beneficial effects of Council of Treat. lie understood there were it could not exteil4 to lilt lower orders. Ile coeld only two %gel did not e. ie fist the white come. ant better express the sense of the People of teesi try considers its Church governed by the council lied than in the words of their petition, in wttieli OtTrent, a Council, driven thither by the tem. they stated thal of which they complaincillutes tile poral povier in conserinence of encroachments, rinse of daily humiliation. Driwino an impasim e aid reluctantly acceded to by the Pope. All its hie line ef separation, it divided the nation and arrangeinents augmented the authority of the See kept animosity alive, while emancipation ttiey re- of Rome; it was composed of Italian Bishops, ejarded as that for the absence of whiclrthere exist- and ended without accomplishing its pm-poses, ed, no compensation.. . . „Ii ~ . nit!' a direct reservation, however; of all VI) . Lord CASTLEREAGH did not emiceitro it to rights of the See of Rome. ' This Cetincil vas be eecessary for him then to state' hie setttiments never recognized by the Gallican Church; it neves on.the general question. Could tee, privileges of received its tenets, as they tended to insure its fibers Protestants be given to the Catholics with security, tics.—The Catholics of Ireland t . however, con. itotreuld greatly inerease the streneoll'of the Em- shier its regulations as a code.' Ile was aeare.of pine; but so continued was he et the impossibility the notion, that great mischiefs would arise front of so doing, that la the Irish Parliament, elisions episcupacy existing in the Catholics of Ireland.--. as he was to betieftl„the pepulatiou of helmt, ill thought it would make people mere limo. he did not think' they could with safety be commit. cent, • mid- less detrimental - to the Protesliiitt aicated to them. The question was, loukkrg at , Church. If there is a great body of Catholic in. the power of the Cuthotic and Protestant parties, terest, the great question is hew it can be go. • iettether, their elitinii being allowed, the preittiea_ emoted with safety, lie did not wish that it ble Catholic power which might.get I n to the rye, shuttle exist at all ;as every danger arises front tern, would 'be sufficient to et-Wailer the I:Tercet. dissenting interests, if so, the' great object is, ant Government and Estiblishmentet., Ifeecueld to separete it trout fereign authority. .—.llO not separate. the Catholics from . other dissenters. did not wish that the name of the Cathie.* lie did eut *reflect _oil their tri' i . killy, bitt l ir !iva's lic kilthinil, ihoold class - with that• of the impossible to suppose that a dissenter. cooed •he as _Estalt;seed Church. EeiScoOacy, he thought; much attached to the Protestant Chute% a! ones teiettres•vell exist in the Catholic Chureh,of Ire. of the same litany. It was, : therefore, to hr land' as its the Presbyterian of 'Scottand.---e considered whether or net the Churelv was sufli. ,//earl hear neellaving thus fat. entered Into eZ., ciently strong to contend ant only with the Ca- . planation, he wished noweeo make a few (Mere tholic hut &tins with, the Protestant Dissenters. ration's on what degree of • understandingoliere wait His feeling vise eas, that if the Catholics could respecting the Union, anti what degree of mime.. concile theniselees to give tbe . ' pledge required of !aeon . was held one He ttid not wish that Ire. m' the, a great advantage would thence be derived -laud 'should have the iittaession of - being unfairly to the State. It was his 'opinion at the . Union, dealewith. If there beilla44otew real seetppointe that those. privileges should be giien to the Catho- merit, he did not deseeie 66-nlo4e-of a Ststesmai tics, if they could with security, but never at a.or an honest man. At the time of the Unioth simple concession. The Right Hen. Bert. in' there wasoio-pronlise made to the Catholic's be. quoting Mr, Pitt's speech on that occasion, bad yield the arrangement already soiled. He, Mr. passed over the most remarkable.expression. 'lle Pityrind Lord Cornwallie, had 'a strong desire never pledged Governmeneto follow Any , partleis 7 that what was or might .be dour, should not lar line of coadiret. His words were, e° ' What_. seem to grow from any previous engagement. veer.' course_ may. be pursued' Itan'_Uttion , will lle did net now mean that there was nothing to prove 4 blessing to all. parties, unit the, Imperial give expectation ; on the contrery, lie op: Legislature will. bo ie A condition in which they prehentled :that impressions might Mere bee* may grant or .refuse with greater earetes,” Speak- I created from ' extraneous' c-iihnistatices, but per/ big thus, lie pledged GoveriOnent .-totailopt- no I sitively not from any promise. As tor. specific measure, the comma° litteoessned was as hiennd Mr. Pitt's langeage - went, it was dii. an after consideratioo. ,The Catholic hierarchy ' tinetly reverse twa promise, and went only to had more influence than arty other tlissenting hier- sey ahat measures might' afterwards result from achy. It ought to be separated front foreign in. the Legislature; if any of the leading Catholita &emu, and never connected with Government at had it in his power to prove this statement false, hoMe. As long as Iceland was a Catholic cotintrye he would do him a great favour by comhig ; for. it would vindicate the rigbts'of its Clergy against , ward. If any part of , the Catholics drew a fa• the see of .liente., .„The countries winch were 1 , vourable aspect from any of the discussions on most bigotted to the catholic fitieh were etways I the Union, -there were many others whO did the alarmed at the form of authority ; in Spain ,they 1 - reverse. In corroboration of these statements he went so far, in pet-Mention- es' to alin, VA OW • .... hl• gged the Hoene to recollect the correspon course with the see of RAW, nor were theyeebe deuce between his Into Right Hollows* ject even to iieeontrouVeristeßeetlotte Atelkustria Friend and the Melt GorernMent. On the same •• every thin wits under:the temporal authority, Ili subject he held in his hand a Memorandum of France the Papel. , p i owe,ehtidoto mere. to do sit(, Lord Cornwallis's, which he then reed. HO the appointmeneof its .Biskeets,theo it 1 0i tot die trusted the House would perceive that he' did with the Protestant Clargy;:herc...., ThiP tatter . list go front his duty in the explanation of principle 'was not limited Se -Catholic' countrio.l .facts..---IVllatever the. dieussion 'night he helve in Prussia awl 411tOsaia die Bishops , Nero always after; he - hoped there would not be introduced apeointed by' tee Monarelts, elt ceamet, be stated, a spirit of acrimony. Ho would vote mote ' (rein the constant practicewf the Catlkolie Church, precisely as he had done before on the same geese that sucli.cootroel can lie negatived. Oh eppre. ikon, but it would be chiefly on The groundi that !bonded tut the Catholics, in the present . ease, he did not feel, (ruin the present circumstances Or pressed their claims 'on the LegOlattsre in their the country, this to be a proper time for the Car' proper situations. 'The Cettilefie MITA , had 'hi. ' hi. tholies to iqtroduee , their' claims, although he therto eons, 4,n , nithontlintriaeriAcent itadod e l would freely admit theme provided they were to trine. In 1740,- Lord Comiinilli4oannuttlena.d -Make concessions eonsistmit with the faith and rni tho plan cov - erttetuita . lol4 diutilaPPiOlt , respect to Mir of their Church. If he was to have advise& the Catholic* Bisheeer ; eitor4Stlifigtavent.• stood them, he would not have persuaded them to bring on the t d ifferent iiiatiltdi 4 itialhtroin/ittiett Tart their question forward at any period, since the' of the question.. The ellettekootis sivririi; that Union took place. Nothing he come ended all eletse who tiliatp l treiid ItiOtau e lrielfect to 'More than . the temperate manner in which it had' 'hat only, which wiritleeite * .thie bergs .in a Veink.brought forward by the Right .Honoutabl i e situation' beyebd all eomPeNtirt e the were in; Gentleman; However, Ire was of opinion, AA( a state of abject iloveily; Yet" ; they .'woeltr not the Catholic diseession had setter diminished than e 11 give way to the feeftilei or thi,s ji. trite. ' , lie was: increased the number of its friends; the cause ha* convinced they were *able of iidtiargint. (he; suffered. Could any Committee be more tag.; highest services, and lte . lhoyeht.theirlirrangemeot 'wardly situated than that which is called on for w would he a Measure.ealenleto leeitok the oliffer. discussion on a question without any f r amed plan? ,ences.of the country. ;.,I.)A f.h,oegitt it, !petit be He could not conceive any thing so utigatoey and .injurious to tietctril, V l LlTe,„o l. 4ifpct.iii4unco : so mischievous. , With respect to - the interest it. ,Over their clergy,' f i% evssu e btekoteteas impose . self, nothing could throw it at so immeasurable W e eible to doubt,, bet wt. the a i ppirrwten o(, q t r. distance: . He had the impression that their claims' quinstoncee, *seer t,t ovettld . 4 coultantly lettli might be complied with, consistent with Protestant r ootlet, te enjust opeinuetionse ; One, pare 'of the sefety, if connected with the necessary safeguards. - • arrangement me/tested by 40/eminent has, cm.; Since the Union, be' had observed in Cie Protest_ . fluid simply to the necessity- ec. being . informed' ants a select/ince to the measure; he aas • satisfied who the titular Bisliep was tie lee that it 4:igki the Roman Catholics might expect every thing froue • have it in itaisower to makcjiny reasonable (Alec- the liberali t of the Protestant mind. Bigotry ' tion. He conceived it wou ld powerfully, satisfy would exist' us all religions, yet •he wits- confident the feelings both of the State and of tire country,' the Protestants were a most liberal and a more en. if Ireland kart the; its Bishops received the nage ' lightened body, and would greet the claims of their • , ~ .s. - 3 • ' . • , ~- .. .• - .. .. • 'Cir: •,.. .5... _ .. . .. ; . .. f Y , . fSMAN w,‘ 4 - . , colliers . 1 Mitt; , 'ple,to be objeets of tolera they thintof • him ;Felton others. They h 1 honest man ? It fork complaining %sten i Catholic, sincerely . prospects wertV4 nut church * could' not ~3'h peits tkh held"( Lit eve* it the laitir' stith ooaht to have bc that • thi. dross ere' grieelltkes bet' (meld. ( The Pon; ninch.lis if Ahoy had been I - ..