The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

.. ROUSE OF COMMONS. a L Mr. H. THORNTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill for extending the powers of the Act for erecting a Brltige over the , Thames. near Vauxhall. • A new Writ was ordered for the town of Derby', in the room tithe lion. Wm. Cavendish, deceased. Mr. RICKMAN presented a Report from the Commissioner' appointed to enquire into the offices of the Horse of Commons. — Ordered to lie on the table. On the motion of Mr. KENRICR, leave was given to bring in a Bill to make a provision for the Clerks in Chancery, after atertain term of service. Mr. MELLISH presented a Petition from several Licensed Victuallers, praying that they might be allowed to gise evi dence before dse Police Committee, of certain grievances under svhich they, now labour.—Neferred to the Committee on the Po bee. • Lewd -tOLKESTONE presented a Petition fioni certain potions confined in the Jails of Winchester, prasing for relief. by an extension of the last Am for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors. The insolvent Delletra - pwilik* Lords' Act Anwfidment Bills ' were read a second tinitriand thmrnitted for Monday. The Prince Regenes'Expenees Bill, after a few observation. from sir T. Tnrton, went through a Committee, the Report of which was ordered to be received on Monday. Mr. M. A. TAN LOR gave notice, that no Friday, Feb. 1.1, be would move the revival of the Committee appointed last Session to enquire into the delays of Causes in Chancery, and of Appeals in the House otLords. On the third reading of the King's Household Officers' Bill, Mr, BENN ETlV,roposed a new clause which was rejected, and the Bill was then read a third time and passed. BANKRUPT MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. LOCKHART rose to call the attention of the House to the consideration of this question, whe ther any, and what Members of that Honourable house had a right to sit and vote there, after they hail been regularly declared Bankrupts? In the time of Edward the First,a Proclamation had been issued, directing Sheriffs not to return persons who were Bankrupts as Members of Parliament. That Pro clamation, however, had not been properly attended to, and therefore that did not go to disqualify per-, sons so situated from sitting in Parliament. The dis qualification, if any existed on that ground in law, arose from the circumstance of the parties so situated not z r aioing that quali fi cation which was required N by 1w to sit and vote in that House. ow lie con t ceiv that the law not only required that a Member of Prtrliament should have that qualification at the time of his election, but that he should retain it so long as he retained his seat. It would be but a mockery, if the law required such a qualification in the first instance, and afterwards dispensed with it, so that a person could be invested with it for one day, and though he 14)A it for ever on the next, con tinue a Member of that llonse. lie did not presume to say that an inquisitorial power should be given to look into the qualification of a Member at any time, but he thought it might be right when it was noto rious that such qualification had been publicly taken away by the operation of the law, that a member should no longer retain his seat. Such a regulation, however, he did not say could be extended to the whole House of Commons. The Scotch Members, and the eldest sons of Earls, lie moved as exceptions. The lion. Member then cited various statutes on the subject of the qualifications of Members of Parlia ment, and concluded a very able speech, by moving " That a Committee be appointed to enquire if any and what persons,being Members of this House. and becoming bankrupts, arc capable of sitting and voting therein." Sir C. PRICE seconded the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob served, It was dear, from the Hoe. Gentleman's own argument, that at present the House could not come to a resolution that bankrupts were excluded from sitting there by any existing law. If it could at all be contended that a bankrupt was by law incapable of sitting there, it was only by au inference that his qualification was affected by his bankruptcy, but still, as persons had seats in that House, who had no qualification by property, their qualifications could not be affected by bankruptcy, and therefore by law it could not be maintained that bank rupts were excluded from Parliameut. It was ano ther question, whether or not there might be reason for making a law to exclude bankrupts from sitting there; but as the law at present stood, they could not by any means be excluded. A Member of Par liament might become a bankrupt after the close of a session of Parliament, and might get a certificate ' signed by the time the next Session commenced, and gain new property to qualify him to hold his seat, and was lie then to be dispossesed of it on such grounds ? In cases of fraud, env one could move the expulsion of a Member on that ground. A Member of that House might lose his property after one Session, and yet, by the death of his father or relation, or by some other circumstance, he might be the next Session be . a richer man than lie had ever been before. A person might be a bankrupt, with out being insolvent, and insolvent without being a bankrupt, so that the mere circurroante of his being made a bankrupt was not of itself enough to disqua. lify a man from holding a seat in that House. He objected to the motion before the House v which was for appointing a Committee to inquire if any, and what learsous were capable of sitting and voting there after being made Bankrupts, or in other words (he was sure his Honourable Friend would know he meant nothing disrespectful), the mo tion was for the appointment of a Committee to read an Act of Parliament. This he thought utinecessary 4 as he could not see that this House could entertain any doubt of what the law was on that subject. If any doubt existed, it might he proper to appoint a Committee to search the Journals : but on the present occasiou, he could see no necessity to appoint the Committee proposed. Whether or not it might be ex pedieut to bring iu a Bill to alter the law, was quite another question, on which at present he had no dis position to pronounce an opinion. Mr. A. BARING opposed the motion, as being ill-timed. Sir C. PRICE spoke in favour of appointing a Cesimittee. Sir F. BURDF.TT thought some inquiry of the nature proposed exttemely desirable at the present day. if they were to permit Members to sit in that House who were not qualified to hold seats there on account of the pressure of the times, they might as well at once write up, in the words Of the Poet, over their door— " Broken and Bankrupt fortune' mended here." • He complaiued of the privileges of Parliament, which enabled its Members to evade the payment of their just debts, and in particular, alluded to the case of a Member who had availed himself of the privileges of that House, without any intention of ever setting his foot in it, to cheat his creditor% of 30;000l. and fly the country. Ile concluded, stating it to be his in tention to vote for the motion. After a few words from Mr. Baring, Mr. Brand, and Sir John Newport, Mr. Lockhart replied. The question was then 'put, and the motion negatived without a division. ' STATE OF TIIF. POLICE. Sir FRANCISSURDETT rose in consequence of the House having rescinded a part of the Order which it had made on a former evening, on the mo tion of the Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. ',Ryder); he was.sorry he had not received the note of the Right Hon. Gentleman earlier than he did, to which he would at least have returned an answer.-- It had not reached him in time to enable him to do so before the subject was brought forward, in consequence of his having been detainedin the coun try by very important business.—He thought it exceedingly improper to rescind that part of the order which had been rescinded on the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. His object in moving for the qualifications of those who had been appointed Magistrates, was to shew that persons had been improperly appointed. He considered it as a matter of importance that the House should know if Ministers had paid attention to the law which had been passed on the subject, in the appointments they had made. The law set forth that as Magistrates of counties were entrusted with great powers, it was expedient to make such regulations as might keep persons in mean situations from holding such offices. It was therefore enacted, in the time of George 11. 66 That no person should act as a Magistrate, who was not possessed of property to the amount of 1001. per annum, in the county in which he was to ad minister justice." This was intended to prevent Ma gistrates becoming the tools of Government, as he had often seen them prove themselves of late. At that time 1001. was a very considerable sum, and such an annual income was thought a tolerable inde pendence, thepossessor of which was not expect ed to be the tool of Government, at least it was thought he could not be such from necessity. Justice at that time, he must observe, was not administered with such severity as it had been of late; but at pre sent, the country Gentlemen to whom such powers as were given to Magistrates might perhaps be en trusted with the greatest safety, were frequently overpowrred by the union of the Magistrates in ad joining Counties. His plan in moving for the Order which had been made by the House, was to see if Ministers had any regard themselves to that law which they had got passed under pretence of benefiting the - • . public, while it imposed on them a very considerable expence. It was taken for granted that enormous a:Bo existed in the presentosystem, and he took it for granted that those abases might be traced to Mi nisters themselves.- It appeared to him highly desir able that the House•should be put in possession of all that information for which he had called, and he should therefore certainly move that that part of theor der which has been rescinded, should be reinstated in the order. If this were not done, if Magistrates were not called upon to shew what were their qualifica tions, when an inquiry into the state of the Police was instituted, how could that House pretend to look into the conduct of public officers ? Ilow could it be done, if they were not to be called upon, lest their answers should criminate teem selves ? With a similar feeling, it had formerly been said, that Lord Melville ought not to he called upon to account for the public money which he had held in trust for the public. To him it appeared very important that the House should know whether the persons appointed by Ministers to fill.important si tuations, were, or were not, such as they ought to be, according to their (Ministers) own Act of Par liament. If this information were withheld, what might not be the evil effects of such conduct on those who now held situations of authority ? When it was asserted, that Magistrates ought not to be called upon to state their qualifications, lest their answers should criminate themselves, he would ask, how had these Magistrates acted themselves en a late occasion - ?—Had their con. duct been regulated by such a principle as that which it was contended, with a reference to them, ought to be constantly kept in view ? What had they been doing in the late examinations which had taken place of persons who were supposed to have been concerned in the murder of the late Mr. Marr's family ? What had they been doing, but endeavour ing to make men, whom they had ever so little rea son to suspect, say that which might criminate them selves ? This inquisitorial power they had been in the habit of exercising daily, and what right had they to inflict the punishment which they had inflict ed on persons brought before them ? What.was now the situation of that unfortunate person who was in confinement on suspicion of being concerned in the late murders, Alblass ? What was he kept for?— Why was he put in chains, immured In a dungeon, and called upon every day to criminate him self ?—lt was stated in. .the daily printo, that • the only circumstance against him was, las in-1 ability to account for a quarter of an hour of his time on the night on which one of the mur ders was committed. If this were all the ground of suspicion against him, they had no right to keep ; him in prison ; they had no right to treat him as he bad been treated. What was it done for For what purpose but to make him criminate himself?' All this was known to the ,public, but no complaint was heard. There might, he owned, be some ex cuse found for it in the anxiety to bring those to justice who had committed such terrible outrages, but he thought those who suffered thus, and who sufered without cause, ought to be made some amends for what they had endured. That had not been done. These poor men had been called upon Ito criminate themselves, and this was not thhught wrong; but when public peculators, Police Magis trates, and persons holding si!uations of some authori ty, were called upon to give an account of themselves, they were to be told in that House, that such enqui ries should not be made, lest the answers of the par ties concerned should go to criminate themselves. This, however, he was. sure of, that every qui lam could give the information he (Sir F. Burdett) called for, when he pleased, and therefore, he only asked that for the House which any common informer could get. The Police Magistrates might many of them have been qualified to hold their situations when they first received them ;• but if that which qualified them Lad since been lost; or sold, 'or otherwise. disposed of; they ought not, in his opinion, to be allowed longer to retain their situations, as they might be TI 1 gIIATEgd)&. made the mere tools a the Minister of the day, as .Car as the, powers with which they were invested -would go. eln consequence of the late increase of crimes, , there had appeared a disposition in the House to do something for the better regulation of the Police. lie thought it important to that end, that every information that could he given should be afforded to the !louse, and he should therefore move, that that part of the order which had been rescinded should be reinstated.—He accordingly...moved, " That accounts be laid bef9re the House of the qualifica tions of the Police Magistrates, specifying what they were, what they now are, and where." Mr. RYDER stated the ground of the motion which he had made to be this—The motion of the Hon. Baronet had required that the Magistrates should be called upon to show what their qualifica tions were, what they now are, and where. This he objected to, because the Act required that no Magistrate should sit without having a qualification, which qualification should be registered. To that part of the order which required what the gitalitica tion was, he had no objection; bait to that which called for information as to what the qualification now is, and where, he objected, as it would only be obtained from the Magistrates themselves. How did the case stand ? Why, by the 18th Geo. 11. no Magistrate could sit Without a qualification; and who ! ever did so, was liable to pay for every act of Ma gistrftcy, the sum of 1001. The order call, d for would therefore require of the Magistrates to, de dare whether or not they had done that which, if done, would subject them to a heavy pe salty. / It called on the Magistrates to convict themselves if they had acted without a qualification.. Now he held that to be such a fundamental principle of the English law, that a men cannot be called upon to answer questions which go to criminate him self; that ke thought that House wou'd be very careful how they proceededao violate it by any order of theirs. The lion. Baronet had said that impro per appointments had been made. lie wished he would come forward to prove that, and not have recourseto the practice of throwing out general insi nuations. Ile knew that since he had been in office he had appointed two or three Police Magistrates. He I did not know whether the Honourable Baronet meant to say they, or any of them were impro- per, but if he did, he hoped he would cease to throw out such pitiful insinuations as they heard, and for once act a manly part, and boldly come forward with his charge. This he hoped he would do, and in the interim he would give it as positive a denial as vrorels could convey. The lion. Baronet had complained of the persons sup posed to be concerned in the late murders, being called upon to criminate themselves. As far as he knew, they had stood en the saute ground as all other persons who were held in custody on strong suspicion of being a p:u'ty to any great offence. — Under such circumstances, the party was. uniformly called to give au account of himself, but at the same time told that he might be silent, or give such answers as he pleased, to avoid crimivating himself. He did not know that any thing had taken place on the late examinations, it was hardly fair lot the individual who had been mentioned, and who was now in confinement to argue the subject at present. He would, however, observe, that he had been exa mined by Mr. Graham, and that that truly respect able Magistrate had found the circumstances stated against him so strong. that he felt it his duty to commit him to prison. He had, undoubtedly, aright to question the person accused, but in doing this, he had always told him, (for it was a rule from which he knew Mr. Graham would not depart), that lie was at liberty to answer as he pleased. What grounds then could the lion. Baronet have for complaining against that highly respectable individual i—So far was his conduct from deserving censure, that he had no hesitation in saying, it was most worthy of public approbation. • Mr. TIERNEY agreed with the Hon. Baronet, that it was necessary (as the Legislature had in the first instance required, that Magistrates should prove their qualification for office,) they should show that such qualification was still inexistence. The House, he contended, had the right to know the fact ; for if; under any positive law, any Magistrate had-in curred penalties, there must be (said Mr. T.) some mode of convicting him—The reason for refusing to agree to the motion, he strongly suspected, was, because it was known to the Government, that some particular magistrates had infringed the laws. The subject was important, and deserved notice. if the mode of coming at the information which the lion. Baronet desired was incorrect, no doubt from a principle of public justice, the Right Hon. Secretary would suggest the best mode of coming at the fact, in order that the laws might not be evaded. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that there were two answera to the propo-1 adieu of the lion. Baronet: first, that there was no reason to believe that the law was broken ; and se condly, if it was violated, it ought to be the last thing far the House teti° to call upon the individual violating, or charged with violating the law, to say that he had so violated' it. There had not beet, any ground laid, or charge made against any one indivi dual ; the motion merely surmised that such might have been the case. Notiqns must not he entertained by the House upon mere supposition that the law was broken. Besides, there was a remedy given in the Courts of Law by qui torn action, when the law might be stated, the evidence produced, and then the jury must determine. There was nothing in - the law which did not . equally apply to the Mag istrates of Counties in England and Wales, as we ll as Po lice Magistrates. Would theliouse consent to call upon Magistrates, under such circumstances, to say, not what their qualification was at the time they accepted office, but what it actually is at the present moment. -Such a call would be unjust in every principle. It was very easy for any per-1 son to hold the Magistrates up to view as acting improperly in some cases, but would the House take a mere Newspaper statement for truth Ist the case of - Alblass 4 there were some strong circumstances of suspicion, which induced the Magistrates to give him at least an opportunity of clearing himself. The questions which had been put to him, and which he had not satisfactorily answered,' were soften' to authorise his detention until , he ehouldinsanswer : and this detention would have the effect, if he did answer satisfactorily, of not only clearing his character, but of shewingithattheymaat. least were warranted in detaining him. - If the gistrates had proceeded to compel him to criminate himself, then, indeed, they would have exceeded their authority, but no such thing appeared. Mrheu he was originally examined,. there were circumstanc e; transpired which might have justified the Magistrates in detaining him. When he was again apprehended, were there not some additional circumstances which came out in evidence fully authorising his fuother de. L jention ? There was then a certain degree of harsh. ness evinced ag ainst the Magistrates by one set of thatthey had Gentlemen t not in exerte d th felou !th e msel v e sst,wlao to discover the authors of the crimes which had so sullied the character of . the Metropolis.. Then up started another set of Gentlemen, ent er . taining dillerent ideas on the subjeet; aud%ey Se e " Oh, we don't charge hlagistrites I too laic, but we do charge them with usintiotS roach severity." How were the Magistrates to aettkweea these two extremes ? they were oSliged td discharr a painful duty, but it became doubly painful es. .posed to such animadversions. In the progress of . discovering the perpetrators of the dreadful scen es ! which disgraced the metropolis, they were obliol to examine many persons on suspicion, and they had itt the elecution of that duty done nothing more ! than what might naturally - be expected. The Hoe. Baronet had charged his Majesty's Ministers unfairly ith Utak ing improper appointments in thelfueisteam because if the person appointed had the qualificatiue o w f henpoia the a 4over tt nn etf, there ienttopr % e V v a e s n io t l hi a in ut f l r io o r m i ty on sub the part seilonti parting with that qualiiication. With respect to the existing qualification, the Honourable House would not desire it, and even if they did, there were stab. cient official documents which could readily be fur nished, clearly to show what was required to be sheen. Supposing Parliament was to institute an inquiry at the Bar under a Penal Act which a Magis. trate might conimit, and to call upon him to pro. duce his qualification, he might chuse to answer the question respecting it, or he might refuse, and the House could not compel him to produce it. If, therefore, the House could not do it in suave case, they would he was certain, do it now. Mr. WHITBREAD conceived that the chief of the Right lion. Gentleman's argutnehts might as well have I l k prodsit•ed when the whole of the motion was Isefure the Hasse: The imputation on the Magistracy was not thrown by the 111. Baronet, but by the House st ho - had acceded to the otigii:si 'notion. The honourable Gentleman did not wish to cast Mr,. upon them ; he was aware they were insitled to respect. Ili of bent he knew well, Mr. Graham, a man of perfect iutegri• of cretsulninate ability, and prone to administer the strut justice. The public sere much indebted to Min. But diet tem was not perfect. He well remembered its first introdurt into the House, when Mr. Windham exerted himself mist st nuou t ly against the Act passing into a law, considering principle of the systhn as franght with infraction on the IMer of the gobjett. The oridinal proposers of it expected tor, • fruit from tt, but they alere deceived. Instead of its produc wholesome efleets, it tad the contralti' hearing. The object the llou. Baronet wan to ascertain whether the .vlagistrates were prop:iriy qualified. It r erips was not of h consegnettiji, ay to the amount of their qualification, that the fact shout(' be known„lntt it warof the gfeatest imporatnee to the publie,that they should know whether, since they were appointed, they had lost that it:: •pendeoce, for then it might render them depcn.leat on the Goveritment. Ile was led to suspeel this was tiM, case,:as the returns were refused, and should vote fgr the motion. The ATFORNEY-GENEIt AL thought that the opinion sit the lion. Baronet nos not sampletely nederstood by unless he greatly misconceitted blur, he meant in broad team to state that the appointments to the hlngistracy were Jobs—[.iir Francis Bardeie here asses!. el to Me propuOion).—The lion. and Learned Gent. observed that he was right in his Conjectitt ; the Hon, Bait, had given him the assent which be expected he would give, and the oesersations of his Right Hon. Fricassee not throbn away. A doubt had been suggested irletber the'rs turns woeld helloed in evidence, if the House consented to per mit them ; they might and would be the strongest esideuer.-- The Legislature had provided the necessary gunid against abuse, by enacting penalties fur fiat being properly gratified, *din tions might be brought in the Courts of Law against any Ma gistrates who were liable, but it would be a direct violation at the law,to eall on them to prodace and state the nature of their qualifications. He had no reason to suspect, in any Wow whatever, that the law had !wen violated. •He resisted the ore tion on the ground that it would be improper to furnish :he ac count called for. If the Mouse tolerated the motion, ever. Ma istrate in the kingdom would be liable to be called upon. — With respect to proseeution, the House might direct one. Sir J. NEW PORT thought the House I.ad divested „itself of its inquisitorial powers by affixing a penalty. hir F. BURDETT repliod ; in the course of evhiet*lse claimed all idea of attacking the character of the Pullyypp l ~u r' gistrates, or of imputing blame to the present Govern; observations were directed solely to the system. The House then divided, For the Motion 7 Against it 70 Majority Tun LOCAL MILITIA. Mr. Secretary It 1"1/Ell moved fur leave to bring in a Ili II to amend She tow's relating to the Local Militia. The object which the Right lion. Secretary had in view, was to remedy th e defects in the present Acts. and to engraft the amendinen s ho , one. The whole amount of the Local Militia was calculated it title more than .our times the original quota of the Voliinisiir force. It was not intended to cluninisa rte force but iu a tett small degree ; for in ninny counties it was found that the reel moats had risen in point of numbers to a height which tte them inconvenient and unmanageable. With a view to prevent alarm, on account of the diminution, it would be prop used ia the new Bill to increase the numbers tVolit f air to sit thno die amount, whenever fear of invasion should aria and tat Of liament should have hero assembled 14 days ; that the t ommanill ant should, at the end of the first fear years. when the time of service had expired, have liberty to propose that the u tensils I extend their time for four years' farther, if they so chose, ant that he should era what nattlarse had so extended Ouse " vices. Great i nconve nience had accrued to thesericultural , eitinniercial interests, by calling the men out for 98 days. 5 holding so large a portion of the population (800 to 900,000nit'ii , w as attended with many inconveniences , and therefore it x Bill. cleamndeanlicere." Ci t ) o ne r h en td ieft elis th ith is e n % to il ;i b ng y cuffed with every part of the statement of ..is Ri g ht. lion . Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON seconded the motio n, and r e:, f d o i r spi le lsi e ut t i; o w b i r t i h ng tha in t Friend. read a second time this day fortnight. toand t lime, otrdheerßeidll,towbheicpbrisnviedas aft, rr bards l :t v brought h i e n n , g re i vaedn to had agreed to the Sugar Export Bill, and 't u ne other Bab: . I thi: A message from the lairds announced, On the motion of Sir SAMUEL ROM 1 LLY, acconotso ntunber of Convicts in the Gaols and on board the Hulks, fur last two years, were ordered. forlaivrto bring in a Bill to pa r e Act relating toi t i se ,,.. bezzlesneut of Naval Stores to Id.—Adjourucd t I that their I.ordshirs Mr. CROKER gave notice that he should, on Monday, day. Esse - and Independence seem to be the Van of thr present small Lottery, for a person purchasing otil two 'Pickets may gain r e .10,000, and thus at once place himself beyond the frowns and ca res of the world. It would then he immaterial to him whether the Minister raised New Taxes, or added tie I cent. to the Old---whethyr we had Peace or War,l.r he would be able to enjoy his Friend and his Bortic• and drink success to Oid England, not forgetting 6" . 18th of February, which is the day th e whole le'- tery will be drawn, and any Purchaser ma y have I,i• wishet -realized. LONDON: Printed and POlished IV D. Ilmvst-L, ot STVII3IIII/4 (trims, $7, Fidet-street. t.i. I. , 1 . . i .. i • .. i . . . . , . , ..,. .'.... f': .--° .:'' !... v ;. 11.. . !I, ii. , ~.. t .t 1 ~ )