The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-06-07 00:00:00

-0 " yr . )Isis eready made gip their minds f for certainly - - - the late Bents had been of a magnitude and chi. ratter sufficient to alarm crery individual for his personal safety. Ile was glad to find that the Re solution did not go the length of stating that the House had pot the Privileges upon which they had acted, but only lamented that they should have, been assumed. It was not for them to decide It question which was in a course of jadicial in. quiry—they could only lament the circumstances which had given rise to the discussion. He then read a passage from Junius, with reference to the Privileges of the House of Commons, and •urged the necessity of Parliamentary Reform as the only means of preventing the Representatives of Rot ten Boroughs from committing the people of this country for acts which might be inquired into by the regular and ordinary course of justice. On these grounds be supported the Motion. Mr. Wheble rose, but .the Lord Mayor inter. tupting him, observed, that it was neceisary.the Resolution should be first read. The Resolutions end Petition were then read by tle proper officer. Mr. WHEBLE said, be wished to call the at. tendon of the Court to the circumstances which assisted forty years ago, when the Court were una nimous in censuring the House of Commons for a 4 line of conduct somewhat similar to that Which had been recently adopted. Ile wished to show, by adverting to a circumstance which then took. place, thin the Howie of Commons bud not the power They assumed. He stated, that for some. thing fie had printed (but we could nbt hear what it was), heivat ordered to attend at the Bar of the Ilonse; be did not attend, and a Messenger was Debt fur him. When the . Messenger came to his house, he was out of the way. In his absence there was a Proclamation for his apprehension, with a reward of fifty pounds offered for taking Trim. The 'louse of Commons addressed his Ma. jesty to issue that Proclamation. Now, if the Rouse of Commons ,had the power to arrest him, -why did they not send their Messenger fur hint into the *country! Why address his Majesty? Ile mentioned this ai a strong case. [A laugh.] Ile begged leave to say, that there was a Member, who was afterwards Lord Rosalyn, who said that he should be taken up by a printer's devil; but that whether the devil took Wheble, or Wheble took the devil, it was clear the House had , got into a devil of a scrape. He should not go into the case, but only make one or two observations. Ile could not help adverting to an expression used by Oroonoko, in the play, who exclaimed, "What ever world I am thrown on, the next cannot be worse." This remark would apply to our pre. sent Ministers—they were so bad, that whoever came in the room of them could not be worse than they were. Ile then read horn a paper what he called the various items of accusation against Mi. nisters, namely, the Convention of Cintra—the sacrifice of Sir John Moore and his Army—the Duke of York's Investigation, which, he said, was really a disgraceful business—the Sale of Seats in Parliament—the acquittal. of Lord Castlereagh and Mr. Perceval—and the dreadful Expedition to Walchercn. He concluded by telling a story about a poor author, who was intending to pub. lash a work by subscription, and when consider. big what he should get by it, said, at all events he allaaid get a new coat and waistcoat out of it, Which be very much wanted; so he thought some of the Counter . addressors, if they could not get any thing for the public by what they were doing, at least hoped to get what they wanted fur themselves, a baronetage or a place. Mr. Alderman SMITH, in referring to the Resolutions which had been read, thought there was mime design in Introducing the expression re. lutive to the " extraordinary and alarming power eff the House of Commons iu imprisoning English. pet," Why not say, imprisoning Sir Francis Burdett and John Gale Jones? What would the nieople in the country, one hundred miles off, think? They would suppose that the House of Commons were imprisoning a number of Eng. i lisineeti, and not merely two individuals. Why put state the fact as it really was? He wished to fall the attention of the Court to what had hap. pened a year ago, during the Investigation re. 'pectin the Duke of York. When General Clavering and Captain Sandon were seht to Prison by • the !louse of Commons, the Gentle. then who were now so tealous in behalf of Sir Frideis Burdett and John Gale Jones were no • ways alarmed at the power then assumed krthe House of Commons.—lt was impossible Wet to see through thli—he was of opinion that . every friend to his country would have had good esuse for alarm if the House of Commons had not been supported in their privileges. • To the House of Commons wo were indebted for every thing ; what ritteld be the consequence if designing per. ions were to go to public-houses and debating so. cietie.s, In order to discuss the proceedings of the House of Commons, and bring them into con. tempt? Where, the_ti, would be the bulwark of the Constitution ? When the House of Commons dropt the helm, then we might expect nothing but anarchy and confusion.. Ile was no party man ; be cared a good- deaf for his family and property, bat he Bated nothing for 'politics. With respect Rbringing forward the question of Parliamentary eform he thought it was out of time. ' Mr. JACKS said, he expected that the Gentle. milt who had brought forward this motion would Save gone further into the question of the, Privi. leges of the House of Commons. Ile apple. Betided that the Privileges of Parliament might be defended on the principles of reason, law, and' precedent. lie observed, that the House of Commons must be deßenderq either'on some ether body q itself. On what other body could the Reese iif Commons rest ? Were the privileges of the [louse of Commons to be placed in tie hands df the King? That had been tried theeentury be nt,: last; Were the Privilege's 'of shi House of immons to hetested in the House oftords)— • bat Could not be, for the Ho u se of Lorthi e* ocired the same pontes with Welt; When coeld the jo s isdiction be vested ? 4 . Certil 'ant Of courts of taw' lye Juries-43at would Se int pottlible t for the priVileges of the 'lone . of Coa l. .fiovA (itri) 1.1.1.?! on prgc lent V. 1.0. lon Pr.?vc!il4i.v., . • f AfF.Syl . I r.. right. How was a.Jurrto decide upon them ? - It appeared, then, that the privileges of the House of Commons were supreme : and he would prove that their privileges were the law of the laud. In order to do .so, ho / referred to the often-renclited qictuni of Lord Coke, that all privileges of Para' 'lament Must be determitied there; and he also quoted the passage from Judge Blackstone's Commentaries, statues, that the Privileges of Parliameut must be learnt and determined by pee. cedent. He contended, therefore, that the most able lawyers understood the law pf Parliament to be the law of the land. He then referred to the section of Magna Charta, which states, that no freeman shall be disseised or imprisoned, ex cept by the judgment of his peers, or the law of the laud, and inferred, that as Lord Coke and Sir Wm. Blackstone were of opinion that the law of Parliament was the law of the land, it followed as a necessary conclusion, that Sir I'. Burdett and J. G. Jones were imprisoned by the law of the land. Then he proceeded to state several cases in the time of Elizabeth and subsequent reigns, which he said were.. analogous to the cases of Sir Francis Burdett and Gale Jones. These cases have already been combated and refuted by the Hun. Baronet, and therefore it is useless to repeat the ,lie then adverted to the particular merits of the two persons who were the objects of the proceed- - ings of the House of Commons; and first, with regard to Gale Jones, he read from the works of Peter Porcupine a passage whisk reflected upon the moral character of that person, - and described the debating societies to which he was attached as places where .ignorant rneti assembled, in order to give utterance to seditious principles. With re spect to Sir Francis Burdett, he allowed there were some good traits in his character ; but as to his patriotism, it was different from all those no. tious of patriotism which he had imbibed when a boy. If the Hon. Baronet was really a Patriot, he would not have associated with convicted trai. tors. [At this expression there were murmurs. some. hisses, and several exclaimed " Shame!"l He said he was entitled to try the lion. Baronet's patriotism by that test. He proceeded to observe, that he had read the debates and Parliamentary history from the Revolution down to the present' period ; and he had found nothing upon the sub. ject of Parliamentary Reform till the time of Lord Chatham. lie had tkound that Sir Wm. Wynd. ham, in 1776, complained of the practice of per. chasing Boroughs. He stated, that in the Long Parliament it appeared that seats were bought and sold—therefore the purchase of seats in Parliament was nut a new thing. He had looked into the de. bates of the Convention Parliament, at a period when the liberties of the people were most attend. ed to, and he had found nothing about Parliamen tary Reform. lie referred to a letter of Lord Chatham to the City* of London, in which he said he was bound to declare that he could not recent ' mend triennial Parliaments; audio that letter there was not one word about cutting off rotten bo. roughs. He complained that those who professed to wish for Parliamentary Reform did not accu rately define what it was they wanted : it was a subject upon which no two persons could agree. The object of the motion lately made by. Mr. 'LAM was wholly different from Sir Francis Bur. dett's plan of Reform. It was stated by the mo dern reforMers, that they desired to bring Parlia. meat back to its ancient Constitution. Ile wished , they would fix on a point when that blessed state to which they desired to bring Parliament back did really exist. He then went into a gcueral descrip. Lion of the origin of Parliaments, reading from the works of old historians a quantity of trite commonplace matter, which few persons are un acquainted with, describing how they were corn. posed of. the great men or Magnates—how the people were formerly constituted of two orders, Lords of Fees, and Valdes. From these lemt. nous researches he proceeded to an elaborate ele. eidetion of the quarrels between King John and his Barons, which eventually produced the memo. rable Charter of our liberties, known by the name of Magna Charts. Ho continued his readings till he came to the ;era when King Edward the First called Citizens and Burgesses to Parliament, assign. big as a judicious reason for his doing so, that he had assembled his Parliament for the purpose of taxation. Mr. SLADE said, that since septennial Parlia. ;fleets had been adopted, there had been continual complaints of the corruptioni of our Representatives in Parliament. He then took a review of the va. rious Motions for a Reform of the Commons Hausa of Parliament. If the people did not come forward with one common . acid unanimous Voice, what reason had they to expect. that the House of CoMmons would reform themselves? None, as the results of* the various Motions for Reform fully proved. All that was asked was a restoratiott of those privileges to which the people were entitled. (Hear! heur I)—He had no hesitation whatever in supporting the present Motion. Mr. MA WMAN admitted that the question was of great importance. Ile saidthat every man who had given any reflection to the subject, could have no doubt but that the House had a right to exer. cise the power they had exercised. Ile could not approve of the Motion, for he thought nu good could result from it. Mr. LUCAS moved is an Amendment— " That this Court, relying on their Representatives In Par liament. are convinced that every retrenchment will be made that L. con.istent with oar safety t and they trust that neither House of Parliament Would be deterred fruits Making such Reform as they might think necessary." Mr. NV A InimAN said, that whatever differ. ence of opinion there might be as to the Wal. cheren Expedition, there could be no difference of opinion as to the enforcement of the Standing Or. dr—it was an ungracious act. Authorities had been cited as to the power pf Parliament; but were the aethorities of Chathatn, Rorke, Fut, and others of no avail ? Burke hadaaid, a House of Communs Was not instituted to be a controul on the people, but a centroul for thc people.— .Burke and other's had expreasecl their 'opinions in language ,sich more strong against the House of ' commons and against the Ministets, than had ' been tissid in the present • day ; yet "fere they stet noticed. • Why should he floc have the same privileges that Mr. Burke had exercised a Mr. • . ~ F. . . Burka further • said, If the Remo west. beyond the law, if they suspended"tha law, thee would 0 the horrors of the Star Chamber be re. vivcd. There *ere Lord Erskine, Sir S. ,ly, asnt other eminent ckaracters, hail-. agreed with his, and such , tike factious individuals * as to the right of the Howse to exercise the power they had. The Hon. Gentleman on the other sidelef the ti. ble, (Mr. Jacks) in attempting to read . the Court out of their depth by citing his musty records as usual, had read .hinsself out of depth. He would agaiu cite what he had cited. before, Burleiglee maxim, that England would never be ruined except by her Parliament. It was grounded in truth. Lord Somers had said, that the safety of the pee. pie was the supreme law. 'Could any one ask what he waited by Reform ? Things wanted re formation. Things were in a monstrous situa tion. lie would not repeat all the shameful acts of peculation, but what reason had they to confide in the douse of Commons ? There was not an instance in history where a Government had been overthrow't by the people, but where the Govern ment had bee, corrupt. There was not au in. stance under heaven. Unless they could cease to think, they could not cease to act—they could not, avoid seeing those things that had occured. As to the noun' reforming themselves it was non. sense, a child of ten years old would not believe such nonsense. Ile cared nothing about the cha racter of Gale Jones or Sir Francis, but in their persons the liberties of Englishmen had been vio lated. Our despicable Ministers hated the sound Of liberty, their conduct towards Spain • proved it. He trusted that the motion would be adopted. Mr. FAVEIJ followed on the same side, and quoted from the abhorrers, as they were called, who rallied round James the Second, immediately I previous to the Revolution, some Declarations poblished by them, whicirwere quite the same as those lately issued front the Subscribers of the Counter• Declaration. The one possessed as much loyalty and desire fur peace as the other, while, possibly, in both, the parties were equally sin. cere; and while- they proclaimed a regard for the Constitution, Sought only to preserve the corrup. tions upon what they .subsisted. t Ilearl hear Mr. QUIN, in his reply, alluded .to the ob. serrations of an Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Jacks), that if any Prince in this country c,ould desire to overturn the Constitution, his first ob ject would be to degrade—to destroy the House of Commons. But he begged the Honourable Gentleman to reflect, that the Prince who could so proceed with such an object, must . be a very clumsy manager indeed—for, according to the present system of the representation, as the House of Commons was constituted, and as it generally conducted itself, it would obviously be the policy of such a Prince to preserve and promote the pow. er of such a House, as the best machine to be employed fur the accomplishment of his ends. (Loud crier of hear 1 hear !) A division' then took place, and the numbers Were— • For the original Motion Against it r I 87 bl Mi;lority for Mr. Quin's Motion and the Petition 6 Adjourned. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. • HOUSE OF LORDS, Juns 6. • The Machinery Export Bill, the Sk. Eustatim Trade Bills and the Judge Advocate's Franking Biil, were rea4 a third time and passed. The Militia Pay 8111, the Militia Adutabt's Bill, the Irish Militia Bill, and the &Sees Security Regulathin Bill,. were brought up by Mr. Lashiugtuo and other Mevabers of the House of Commons, and read it first time. The Gas Light Bill was also brought up by Sir James Graham and other Members, with the Aniendmoas agreed to. The Irish Loan Bill was read a second time, and committed for to-morrow. The Poor Bikdge Bill passed through a Committee, and was reported. The second reading of the Revenue Penalties Bill, was, on the motion of Earl Spencer, fixed fur Saturda3r. CATHOLICIe. • j The. Order of the Day having been real, The Earl of .DoNOUGHMORE said; the un. willingness which he felt in pressing himielf upon their Lordships' attention at any time, was greatly increased by those circumstances of peculiar die. courageirteut, under which it became his present duty to enter upon the discussion of a subject which bad been so often agitated, as to have lost all the grace of novelty, and was now, un'furiu. 'lately, deprived of all that power of attraction which it had formerly possessed from the eloquence and ability of the Noble Baren (Lord Grenville). Ile was fully aware of the difficulties that had arisen out of recent events, but the Petitioners were the best judges of their own case, and with respect to this application had decided for themselves; His Lordship expressed a strong disapprobation of cer. tain strictures citi Lord Grenville's letter, and parti. cularly as coming professedly from a quarter deeply interested in the success of these Petitions, and re. commended to-his Catholic countrymen a candid appreciation of the motives of those public men who had never deserted their public duty: With respect to the objections to the claims of these Peti. flutters, the argument lay within a narrow compass. The Act of the 12th and 13th of William 111. fur the settlement of the Crown, had three avowed ob.- jects equally distinct from each other, and of equal importance, the establishment of the right of sue ' cession to the Crown in the present reigningiiimi. ly—the principle which respired as an indispensable condition, that the King siiiii4tl hold communion with the established Church';. and; Cady, there securities which the Act provide& for the rights and liberties ofjhe people. But where - war- there in this Statute any provision to preicilhe or regulate the religion of the Membeesa4neither . House of Parlipent, or of the King'ILSAVII or mi. litary servants This sublett was aciatitiliainner the consideration of the . hauliers of the Act, but producedeprovisioa of a very different complexion, according to which no alien, thu' naturalized, can hold any office of trust or profit *tido the Crown, civil or military; or bg a KnetiibP.',Of cliker Home of Parliament. He drew, thereffore, ,tisis cunclu. slim, that the exclusions then considergnecessery to be declared as fixed constitutiiiiikprinerples, were not upon the subject of religion: Of the compact between the Sovereign and the people in 1688' the 13111 of ltighks was at once the etidence • i,.1."1..0f J. 0. , • andethe, T 051 0 1.11011 //here did diey find iu tha Aim exclustOp44 tic, King's Catholic subjects . life isah vinfe, ask tho,Test and Corporation Ac i f pre ,tp, in .ealote4 and were sulfered to re. F , : full i ,mom in A oree, sad ihat it was since the Revo. Ingots thkt Rjealoeiy.of the State seemed to have 4ecu usstakitfe against the Catholics. But against what dis t criPtoftst 44 persons had those exclusions .. become necessary ;t the Restoration of Clinics th Second ? Sprely not against the Catholics, who had steadily adhered to the Monarchy, but against th Puritans. During the short reign of James the S , coed, and the latter years of Charles the Secuo, Popery certainly made its appearance in equestioo. able shape, and at the periud of the Revolution cr. elusions confessedly became equally necessary ;0 , against the Catholics. it was their duty to confine them so lung as the same necessity should exist, lin ,- they should out suffer themselves to conrotano -.--.. these securities with the Constitution itself. , The fundamental principles of the Constite. -.1 tints which comprised those liberties which were the birthright of the 'British nation, the insepara.' We Protestant quality of the Crown, anti the maintenance of the Church as established by la*, would not be entrenched upon by grouting th e , claims of the Catholics. The motives for the re., stri*o Acts against the Catholics had now ceased to operate; where were they ntev to find the as. section of the rights of exiled Royalty, and of the repudiated Catholic faith? Where. were now the thunders of the once air pea ert,ll head of that Ch u rch ? If all these dangers had entirely ceased to ex i s t, where was the argument fur continuing these degrading disabilitie, ? But what sophistry, th e y were asked, would satisfy those consticntioue scruples winch interposed alt insuperable obstacle • to these concessions in the oath of the King. At.. cording to the constitutional duttrine, all dui King's sets were the acts of the Ministers, and I. from the sainereasoning these conscientious sem. p i es we re to lie considered in that House, not as those of the Royal inied, but as the scruples, reai or asstinied,. of the Ministers. And first from this wordsof the oath, 44 such rights as du or shall ap pertain," it will' obviousi that these rights wercl subject to be reviewed, ,and muddle , ' according to circumstances.' Even a t itibiltantive and direct mu. alificatinn (hectors Would'elot infringe this °blip tiUit; but the Catholics did not solicit any such thilig, en the contrary, solemnly disclaimed *pea oath all wish le iaterfere with' the rights of .the Church as established by law. But was it likely that the legislature would at the time this obligation was framed, have presulned that the interposition of such a clteck•woitld ever become necessary to se cure the Constitution, and that too against the two Houses of Purliament themselves ; or that they would have consented to place so unconsti. tutional a power in the hands of the third estate? There was, therefore, this plain and obvious an. swer to be given' to all these scruples of consci. ence, that the bath of the King does not epply to the making of laws, but to the execution of them. Ent -where were these conscientious eerue pies, when, in the time of King Williain, it, 1689, Episcopacy was abolished in Scotland, amt . the Probyterian religion established ? or when, more recently, the Roman Catholic Religion Was established under the British Government at the other side of the Atlantic—or was the contempti, bte farce played at Corsica erased from theis . ce e collectinti, where the King was insulted by the present of a neer Crown, and the religion of admit a second time established by our scrupulous fsli, nisters? It was said, that Catholics and rrd, testants had never drawn together cordially in the common enjoyment of political Privileges oe the joint discharge of public duties. This anemia, lion he denied. Who ever questioned the teal sod fidelity of Still? to his Catholic Master, Hwy thit IVtb of France ? Could' it be conceived that the brilliant career of Saxe; bf Schomberg, or Tie.. reline, was restrained by the reflection that they were fighting the battles of's Prince of a religion different from their own ? l i i the American States, who had ever complained that that Constitatioa worked ill, because all situations were open alike to every citizen, of whatever religious persuasion? He denied another assertion also, that the eaperi. ment of such a communication of privileges es that he was contending for had already failed in the ex, perience of our own country, for no argument could be drawn from the reign of James the Se cond, his object being the extinction of the liberty of his people arid the overthrow of their religion ! Another objection had arisen from the condo; imputed to the Petitioners; they were said ho. be unreasonable men, and devoid of gratitude , for favours already conferred. His Lordship then went over the different measures which had ' been adopted for the purpose of relaxing the re. strictiuns on the Catholics, and contended that th e Catholics had never been deficient ingratitude tee those concessions, bet had been always really to render complete justice to themselves and to offieia l The refusal of the Catholics to disclaim the aetho, rity of the Pope in spiritual matters, was, however, the master objection against those of the profile. day, which appsered like Aaron's serpent, to have. swallowed up all the rest. No man was so Ivo rant •as out to know that its professed unity iti dee,' trine and in discipline, under one and the same de l dared head, was the essential distieguishingcharae teristic of the Catholic Church, and. yet they were teld that the Irish Catholielli were the most unrea sonable of men, because they would not renounce, upon oath; this first tenet of their religion, aedcfoi t sent to recogeize 1 new head of their Church in she. person of a - Protestant King. The Irish Catho lic, gilder ehe'existieg tests, solemnly abjured the authority o( thdeape its ail temporal matters, pledg ed himself (tete •a faithful subject rlf (lie King, mid tolefend the 'or:cession of the Crown, and the arrangement of property, as now' established by sow, and that lise•ewelt' Oen, exercise any privet. legeto'which . he ;y; ;or"' rimy become entitled, to &Herb the •Preleetent religion or Protestant •Gir.4o.ntiteut... Whit - possible ground of appre,. hensien could, there be which aas not effete. illy protitred votes; by the terms of this oath ? Ti l e Celholic ..wSiki. not Ae cti4cally renounce its spiritual matieneadl connection with the acknoiv ledgett head of histai's Church, end why should it,iie required of him in ail teinpoeat concerns ? he tied 7 ,, 7'77 "TIP etry dal I irtiel a rcli SCSS , Pitt Bie Pe Lat and est