The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-02-04 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN. Passing over.— T ear, hear!]—lle - thought the 1 4` onus probandt lay upon the side of those w ho, contrary to all reason and experience, en tertained such fears from priesteraft. But, sup- ising such a perverse faculty of persuading in Bo naparte, and such a modum recipiendi" in the p o pe, was it likely that the effect would be a revolu tion more complete than alt the Clergy, Nobility; and population had been able to accomplish? The question divided itself into two parts—the will and the power. It was true that the Catholic had been once the general religion of Europe, but he denied that any instance was to be found In the history. of modern Europe, in which they had. attempted to erect a hierarchy on the ruins of the Government un der which they lived. But should such a design enter into their contemplation, how was it to be opposed ? By reason, if it was introduced for discussion into that House ; and by force, if force *as applied for its establishment. —Looking at the Church before the distinctions of Catholic and Protestant were known, they would find that in its primitive state and under the. ty. ratiny of the Caesars no such attempt was made, but at present having placed great moral forces in their hands, we had stimulated their desire for higher. As to the danger of the Church of Eng land he was unable to discover it. That Church (alluding to the Church of England) which, though nursed in persecution, had wound itself into .the I habits and affections of the people, could only be en- ! dangered from another quarter . It could support itself, and continue secure in the love and esteem of : 1 all who had the happiness to live under its influence. Cemented by so much blood, purified by so many martyrdoms, it was not to be overthrswn by a few sectaries of any description. Another objection of his Right Honourable Friend was, that the Catholics would refuse to pay tithes ! to the Protestant Clergy, or rather that they would transfer them to their own; but he would refer his Right Honourable Friend once more to the Ndict of Wants, the twenty-fifth article of n Mat states, " that the personkprivileged by the State should pay tithes to the Clergy of the Established Religion." Another danger apprehended was, 'that no securities would be given, the Veto having been ; refuted : for his part, he thought that the Veto ought to have been granted. It - was granted to Prussia by her subjects, and should not be withheld by ours.- 1 He differed decidedly from those Gentlemen who thought of conducting the work of conciliation I like a negotiation between two hostile Powers. That was not his notion of legislation.-- , In his opinion, where the gift could be offered with safety, it should be offered, take -it or leave it who would. [Hear, hear!) To suppose, at this time of day, that every political establishment bad not a right and claim to secure itself by all ne cessary means, was a thing too absurd for refutation ; but arguing on the principle, he did not think the mode proensesi was either just or beneficial. The ' Roman Catholics had adjourned their late meeting to ' the vest month, for the avowed purpose of prepa- • ring a petition to the Throne. He thiiught they were right in determining on such a petition. It was uaturd, foe they had obtained every thing.that was' hitherto granted at. the recommendation of. the !. Throne; and the complicated details that would be 1 necessary in the promotion of that great nork, would • best proceed from the Government. There were : other grounds that induced him to disapprove of the ; present motion, and one of them was aground which his Noble Friend bad represented as rendering it peculiarly eligible. Ile alluded to the present irri tation, the effect of which would be to make men look at the question less as a practical benefit than as a trial of strength. It should be brought forward un. der other circumstances, and the friends of the measure were wrong to interrupt, as it were, the expected grace. lt was impossible for any one who conversed with the various mtiks.of the community, not to see that they entertained great prejudices against the measure — prejudices which time, and temper, and reason could I alone overcome. He would have advised the Catho lic Body not apply to the house, until they found i how they were received in another quarter. .They eere not yet, however, deprived of the hope of ' surress—at least they wet° not driven to the certain-I ty of despair. Had this been . the case, be should Lave expected that they would have come forward in a tone of complaint, a tone which was in itself a sort of consolation and of revenge. But to that I state they were not driven, and therefore he wished that the present application had not been made. —He was aware that a person who did not go the entire length Tith the .prejudices and feelings of others, had little else to console himself nith than the conscie n ti ousue s s. of d o i n g right. For his part, wishing well to the Catholics, not as Ca tholics, bet as a part of the community, he wished ! that the question was set at Test, though not iu the manner recommended by his Hon. Friend : not as the victory of one part over the other, but as an ar rangement for the good of the kingdom and Consti.. tptuttn. He did not understand his. Noble Friend's ' !kw of the Constitution ; he appeared to look upon', it as if it were written in one book, and to be read at one glance; and alluded to the Revolution, as if it had been manufactured ; but that was not the way in which he (Mr. C.) beheld it. Ile looked upon it as • distinguished from that of France bJ au endeavour not to create, but to establish ; not uy a passion for exper t mentali zing new theories, but a desire to confirm the ancient venerable practices made and handed dawn to us even by our Catholic ancestors. He did not like the picture which his Right Ho. tiourable Friend drew of it, but regarded it en a large r atu l more ex t ens i ve scale 44 Pen lentenique sinus ; et vasta viste vocantent cterukuns iu greemium." He should hesitate long if he thought that the vote which he was about to give this night would tend in any manner to further the pit.- Pose his Right Hon. Friend ; but as he thought it could' have no such tendency, and was of opinion that to vote in a different manner would not lead to any practical advantage ; for the reasons he had al ready slated, he must, however reluctantly, oppose the motion. Sir J. NICHOLL, in explanation * , disavowed any wish to re-enact tlie restrictions from which the Ca tholics had already lieen relieved. So far was he in entertaining any disposition of that nature, that, , re such a proposition made, it would, meet with Ins decided opposition. Nor bad he, as represented by the Right Hon. Gentleman, intimated any con viction that the exclusion of the Catholics should be perpetual ; and he really thought that, in his origi nal speech, he had sufficiently guarded himself from such a misconception. Mr. CANNING, in explanation, admitted that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had, with respect to the first subject, sufficiently guarded him self in words from the imputation of being favour able to the re-enactment of the restrictions on the Catholics ; but his argument certainly tended the other way. He was happy, however, that the lion. and Learned Gentleman had an opportunity afforded him of distinctly disclaiming any such disposition.— • With respect.to the other point, he had certainly misconceived the Hon. and Learned. Gentleman through the whole of his speech ; for he had decid edly understood him to say, that in his opinion the time would never arrive for granting to the Catholics a participation in the rights.of their 'fellow-subjects. Mr. HUTCHIMON, as he had been called upon in so pointed a manner by the Right Hon. Gentle man, would trespass upon the indulgence of the !louse for a few moments. This was not the first time in which he had heard the Right lion. Gentle man conclude a most brilliant display of eloquence by giving a miserably bad vote. Ile had not more admired the great talent which the Right Hon. Gen tleman possessed, than the prostitution of that ta lent for the purpose of makiuxbed and wicked im press ions. —(A loud cry of Order!) The SPEAKER requested the lion. Gentleman to abstain from using expressions of so strong a na ture. • Mr HUTCHINSON resumed. The Right Hon. Gentleman had declared that the motion of which he (Mr. H.) had g'ven notice, was one not to be argued, but a' ome denied. The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, who was himself one of the Administration which forabd an union with Ireland founded on promises, every one of which had been violated, ought not 6, be his lecturer on such a subject. He felt , he was alischarging his duty to his country, when he met with the Right Hon. Gentleman's decided disapprobation. Ile contended that the Irish Go verment had done every thing to inflame and dis affect the Catholics. Their claims were just—they ought [fever to renounce them ; and he was pen. suaded that there would be no safety for the empire until they were accorded. Mr. PEELE observed, that as the object of the Catholics wis the acquisition of political power, a reference osght to be had to their former conduct, to see how they had exercised power when in the pos session of it. Ile had not heard any satisfactory ex planation of the real views of the Catholic Assem bly. It had beeu said that their object was to pre pare a petition ; hut were the terms or the prayer of that petition so difficult and so novel as to require the meeting of Catholic Peers and sons of Peers, in order to f ante it ? In his opinion, the Irish Government had no option, but were compelled to enforce the law. He thought the motion' of the Noble Lord in judicious, as the warmest advocates for the Catholic claims would be justified in refusing to accede to the ' I appointment of the proposed Committee. Even Lord Grenville, in his letter to Lord Fingal', had disap proved the presentation of a petition, the object of which was the appointment of a Committee; and now the Noble Lord opposite moved for the appoint ment of a Committee without any petition. This might not be unjust to the Noble individual of whom he had spoken, for whom great allowance might be made for change of opinion, but it was unjust to those who concurred with that Noble Lord, to be lieve that the lapse of 20 months would make such a difference in theirsentiments. To grant the Ca tholics all that they required, would be to place them upon more than equality with their Protestant bre thren. • One stop of concession led to another. If the Catholics were admitted to two branches of the Legislature, he wished to know on what ground I they could be refused access to the third ? He begged I to be understood, that in giving his vote on the pre sent occasion, he by' no means pledged himself to any opinion on the Catholic claims, but merely exptessed his sense of the inexpediency of such a Committee as 'that proposed. Lord GEORGE GRENVILLE argued in favour 1 of the motion, and contended that the more fre quently the Catholic Claiens were considered by Parliament, the more fully would their justice be ! established. Mr. HERBERT did not impute any blame to the Irish Government for their recent conduit • but would vote for the enquiry, as calculated to b e pro- i ductive of much good. Sir A. PIGOTT controverted the opinion that this I wan not a proper time for conceding to the Catholics their Claims. The Honourable and Learned Gen man seemed to think, that when the Irish should be educated--when they should be conducted from ig noranie to knowledge, and from turbulence to or. der, that would be the time for such a concession.— For his part he had no hope of living to see such a time. The Right Honourable Gentleman, who, to such a !militant speech, had tacked sdch a lame and impotent conclusion, declared that when prejudices were subdued, and the question could be entered , upon with' a general concurrence of sentiments, that, in his opinion, would be the time for granting to the Catholics their Claims. Of the arrival of this pe riod he was as hopeless as he was of that described by the Hon. Gentleman. In his opinion the conces . sion should be immediate. If Ministers would say ' that 15 days after the present day the question might be considered with more propriety he would not object Ito the delay; but this they had not yet said. From the rear 1801, the period of the Union, the Catholics hadbeen out of the pale of the Legislature. For this ' exclusion, reasons well known to everyone had been I urged. The only consolation which every good sub jet had, amidst his distress for the unhappy situation of his Majesty, was, that the consideration of the grievances of Ireland was thereby opened to Parlia ment, and that the unctions of the Legislature, which had been so long suspended, need no longer be so, for it was quite Impossible, and indeed would be as absurd as false, to suppose that the August Personage who represented his Majesty did not feel himself free to listen to the advice of Parliament on that as well as ai‘y other subject. What was the history of Ca itholic Committees ? From the year 1757, when the idrish C atholics had the miserable privilege of . re-. claiming au acre of bog land, and of having half ap acre of arable land for a potatoe-garden, provided they kept at a proper distance from any town, they had invariably, and with the best effect, made their application to Government through the medium -of Committees. These Committees had not only negociated with Government, but at times had even been presented to the King; and one of them existed in this favourable state at the very time, in the year 1793, when that memorable Act, of which such dangerous use had recently been made, was passed, to prevent the appointment of reresenta tives for any portion of the people of Ireland. In the history of any statute, the occasion which called for it was important. In what necessity did the! Convention Act originate? In the existence in the I province of Ulster of a Legislature, whose serious consideration no subject of Government ever es caped—who discussed even the important question of peace or war, and who at length came to a con clusion to summon at Athlone a Convention of all Ireland for Similar purposes. The Irish Parliament ! then thought it time to interfere, and the Convention I Act was passed. All meetings for the purpose of petitioning ought to be openly prohibited, if to meet for that purpose was an offence in the eye of the law. Those who wished to petition ought not to be led ' into a snare by an idea that it was only intended to prosecute thipe who met under the pretence of form- ing.a petition, but having in reality some other oh jectin view, if the purpose of petitioning were after *Mt* be the subject of prosecution. Be then pro ceeded to comment on the provisions of the Conven-. 1 ties Act, which he contended did not apply to the late proceedings of the Catholics in Ireland. lie thought the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench in Ireland was not quite correct in issuing the 1 warrant he had granted, and gave it as his opinion, that had a similar application, on a similar occasion been made to the Lord Chief Justice of the Court of' King's Bench iu England, he would not have granted his warrant, but have seat the business before the Grand Jury. Mr. WELLESLEY POLE said it had bmn at tempted by those who wished to disturb the public peace, to make it believed that the Convention Act had been put in force, not to maintain the law, but to persecute the Catholics, In order to disprove this, it ,was necessary to take a view of the proceedings of the Catholic Body. He would not trouble the House with the whole of the proceedings, as he had been obliged to do last year, but he thought it neces sary to call their attention to one circumstance. The Catholic Committee formed in 1793, was revived in 1809, and held its sittings in 1810. The assembly, it was known, was not strictly lawful, and this stated, it had been asked, if it was unlawful,. why was it not put down earlier than it was ? To this the answer was, they were anxious to treat the Ca tholic body with the greatest lenity, and with the utmost forbearance, and therefore, being less strict in enforcing the' law than they would have otherwise been in a case where any other class of sub-1 jects was concerned. It was a mistake to suppose the Convention Act was framed for any particu sect. Had any other body proceeded so far, it would have been attempted to bring it to bear en them. The Committee were suffered to go on for some time, till it was found they had recourse to every thin. that could influence the public mind. They had all the forms of a Parliament. They had their Committees, their Sub-Committees, their Committees of Grievances, their public and private Redressors, &c. &c. Their proceedings were such, that even in their own opinion they went too far, and were afraid of the consequences. It was when they had it in contemplation greatly to increase their numbers that the Circular was issued. They had, however, been censured, as having interposed at an improper time. This, however, was not the fact. Lord Ffrench and others, the most respectable of their body, had al- I ready seceded from them, and these proceedings were those of the most violent and least respectable ! that remained. They thought it their duty to stop the evil as they did, and accordingly it was stopped. To his knowledge, the ten additional. Members from each county had never met. The Lord Lieutenant had permitted a small body of the Committee to meet from time to time ; and j from this conduct it had been said, that they had weakly abandoned a plan rashly adopted, and that I their conduct was marked by madness, folly, intern perance, and intolerance. The Right lion. Gentle- ! mai then proceeded to describe the proceedings of the Irish Catholics, and read to the House their Re solutions of the 9th July, which announced their intention to persevere in their plan of adding to their numbers ten persons from each county, five from each parish in Dublin, and for the first time the Ca tholic Prelates, and the eldest sons of Earls were' named as members of the Convention, making in the whole a body of four hundred and seventy-seven persona. When the Lord Lieutenant saw this he was struck in various ways. Ile thought it a most lamentable thing that Lord Fingall should lend I himself to a body, which, if allowed to act as a Convention, would eventually annul the Government. Oa the great question of the Catholic Claims, which had been so much insisted upon in the course of that night's debate, he must beg leave, even at that late hour, say a word or two. It was true that he had I uniformly voted against the prayer of the Catholic j Petition, but he had as studiously avoided delivering any opinion upon its merits. The motive for such; conduct was a deiire to avoid saying any thing either ' to irritate the prejudices of the Catholics, or raise and flatter their expectations. He had turned the matter often and seriously in his mind, and he felt no small anxiety that something might be done to meet the wishes hnd to tranquillize the minds of that large description of his Majesty's Irish subjects. Ile never was the man to say, that no consideration of times and circumstances should ever dispose him to admit their claims. Neither had he ever, said; nor was he now prepared to say, that the Le gislature should not attempt some arrangement to grant the prayer of their petition, as far as the granting of that prayer should continue to be con sistent with the security of our Establishments in Church and State. He should never, at the same time, even ga to that length, if they continued to , maintain the tone and attitude which they lately had assumed. Before he would consent at all to enter tain their Petition, he should observe their conduct ! and the manner in which 'they should present it to • I Parliament. If that manner had any thing in It which announced turbulence, insubnidlni'fioo, 4ire sistance, in any shape to the law 9 of the laud, he would be among the first most strenuously to reject it. But if, on the contrary, their behaviour and temper bespoke moderation, t or nesratteep and a due submission to the law, he would be as fortVard any man to promote its success,and rejoice es 8;111' cutely as any Viian in the accomplishmenf•of th e ir wishes, as t's. as those wishes could be gratified out daugr , or detriment to the Church and glair!: Mr. RTIEItID AN said, tie Right Hon. Geqtlensan had re; appeale.l to biro, althosign ne had not uttered one word daring she. course of the debate. But as he had so appealed bin, he must beg leave to say a word or two on the manner and mutter of the Right lion. Gentieumai, whom he should be proud to call his Friend. He really , had a high opinion of the mind aid comprehension of the Rigin lion. Gentleman; but he had. made uo display on the present occasion of Muse talents for winch lie was willing to give him credit. On the contrary, ha had taken a narrow and pitiful view of so great and important A question, and stullal his speech with endless extracts-of the mos; inferable mintitire„the must paltry and contemptible trash, and Itint in the discussion of a question the most in oinentoni that could come into discussion; for the question of that night was, Whether Ireland 3tiould 'he preserved in her allegiance to the British ICrown by toncillation and jim:ice, or driveu into theories of th enemy, by injustice, tyranny, and oppression ? This was the real question before the House, and not tneeely the Catholic els ms, which formed only a part of th e mar s o f gr i evance i of whi ch lreland had to complain s and on which be would trots= j hie the thine of Commons more at ut a more favour able moment. Indeed, be had no intention of uttering a %yard that night, and the few words, be had uttered were extorted fro .n him by the tone and the tenets 'which ' charac terised the speech of the Right Honourable Secretary. Who, indeed, could hear, without krlings of indignation, that jus , ticeand-rig?t should be refused to a p ople, merely because ' surue of their advocates may have used indecorous and intempe; rate language is the assertibn of their clai m s) Th e Ri g ht , Honourable Secretary called on the Irish Catholics to I forward in an attitude of submission and humility; with a tone and language that beipokemeeknese:. moderation, and lint j bearance. But while he was thus demanding from the Catholics every demonstration of mildness, sub:nission, and docility, he was himself making use of language, and insisting on topics, i which no men, conscious of their rectudeand of the justice of their claims, could have temper to listen to, or patience to en 4. dare. Ile should not now trouble thrrHonseam v i'arther, but con 4 eluded with moving, That the House do now adjoilrn. I Adjourned to this day, when the Debate wilt be returned. PARIS PAPER& OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE FROM Tll IMPERIAL ARMIES IN SPAIN. REPORT OF GENERAL COUNT SUCRET TO 1115 lIIGH. NESS THE PRINCE OF WAGRAT4 'AND NEUFCHATEL. " CAMP BEFORE VALENCIA, DEC: 29, 1811. • " MONSEIGNEUR,- -After the battle of Sagunto, I remained in my position, with my right at Lyria, my left at Gnus, and my centre in the, suburbs of Va.: lencia. During this time the enemy collected all the disposttble force they had in Murcia, and the other points of Spain. I had judged it necessary, before investing the place and opening'the trenches, to have every requisite for the siege in readiness. A part of the carts were employed in bringing in previsions for the army. It was otdy with the greatest efforts that I was able to collet', in the course of the month,.loo twenty-pounders, and 30 mortars and howitzersi with their necessary apparatus. They are at this moment annexed to the park of the siege. Ott the '24th I repaired to Segorbe, where I reviewed the division of Getteral Count Reille, which I found in the best condition. lam also extremely veil saw tisfied with the division of Sevedoli. I caused these troops to arrive by a forced march of 50 hours on the banks of Guadalaviar. On the '26th in the morning two bridges were speedily established by the corps of engineers, and the artillery at the same time titre* over a bridge of boats. General Reille began td pass the river. General Harispe advanced upon Ford. rente. General Bouss-rd, at the head of 460 hus sars, passed the river and charged a squadron of the enemy, which he broke; but abandoning himself to the pursuit, he arrived on the lino of the insurgents wound= ed, and fell into the hands of the enemy. His brave Aide-de-Camp Robert perished, making his body a rampart for his defence. The rest of his detachment escaped with, only the loss of eight men. Immedi ately the 4th of hussars and 15th of cuirassiers, who were on their march, put themselves on a full trot, and soon came up with the cavalry of the in surgents, which they defeated, and retook Gene ral Boussard. The insurgents, however, preserved I a good countenance in the entrenched camps lof Manisser and Quarte. General Mesnier march led strait upon the camp of Manisser. I had or• dered the division of Palombini.to advance upon the • right flank of the enemy, between Valencia and the Wrenched camp. This attack was secondary, but it be. came principal. It was said thesuceess of this day would be owing principally to the soldiers of Italy.-- The intrepid Italians crossed the river with tee wa ter up to their middles, and charged .the enemy with shouts of Viral Emperator Re. General Balabier, ' at the head of the lid light and 3d of the line, Ita ° liens, forced several iotreuchments, crossed several canals, maintained himself against triple the number of troops, and gave time to the second brigade, con. , sitting of the sth and 6th of the line, ; to joie.— Never was Italian courage displayed with greater intrepidity. Fifty Dragoons of Napoleon, his. teeing only to their courage, braving the difficulties of the ground, made an extremely brilliant charge.— In the mean time the Colonel of engineers. Hewry I caused a bridge to be established, and works to sup , port it. The battle continued when General Robert, 1 whom I have already had so much reason to praise, I arrived at the head of the 117th and of the Ist regi ment of the Vistula. The intreuched camps of Ma. nisser and Quarte were forced, cannon, baggage, caissons, all were taken. At this moment General I Count Reille, with the brigade of Boueke and the division Severoli, arriving on Aldaya, entirely turned the enemy. The 9th of hussars charged and' made a great number of prisoners. Cut bff from the road of Murcia, Blaks was thrown into Valencia. " While these eveots were passing, General Harispe, who Was appointed to blockade Valencia and pass the Guadalaviar att its math, made himself master of the Lazarct, took fr.art the euens rwmeoal pieces of cannon, and made a number of prisoners. Two T eases, two frigates, and a great numbet of English gaa-beats kept*, a lire during two hours from sixte:n p i cas 4 art m er y pisined on the mole of the Grab, They terra obi*, b o wever, to sheer off. Harispe arrived at 14 Cantartola s and took at Afagar , •y of baggage and am. 15 monition and one howitzer. An Di before night Valemia was invested on all sides. All the small ,intrenclied camps weld forced, the enemy every where beaten, fito salads of colours, I 30 pleoes of cannon, and 100 caissons and the taggage waggons 1 taken. Part of the enemy's army have been pushed into WO 1 marshes of Albufera, where it has snout probably perished. 1 " The loss on our side has been su stained priceipally by the i division of Palombini. I have particularly to regret the lon of Colonel Barbieri, of the 94 regiment of light infantry, Awl Cop. Sala Ordsearl, of tb• atoms. We Isairettal 20 WIWI 4bot . .> . It AO m 1 J~^' I ' 1 r fl N • ) • .