The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-04-13 00:00:00

' TtiP ST ATESM AN 74x - "J The now Duke of Portland, late Marquis of Titchlield, took toe oaths and his seat, on succeeding to his hereditary honours. Messages from the Commons, by Mr. Dickcason,.brought up two Private Bills. Mr. Johnson, from the Office of the Chief Eecretary of 'Si de fur Ireland, presented at the Bar a Report of the State of the Prisons in Ireland. Lord LIVERPOOL laid on the table Papers explanatory of some apparent contradictions in the statement of the Army Estimates. The Estimate s s p ecified a vote for 31,000 men, sold yet the Papers stated the number at 33,000; but this.dif ference arose from the circumstance of there being the regiments in the West India service, which amounted to 18,615 awn. Lord ROSSLYN observed, that the 60th regiment, one of thibe. tight to have been officered by British Officers, since it eras, in point of fact, a regular ailment. FOREIGN CORPS IN TIIF. PAY OF GREAT BRITAIN. Lord KING rose, but not till some time after the Order of the Day was read. Reverting to the Act of the 45th of his present Majesty, that Ad did not (his Lordship said) authorize the powers which Governmeat A i ad assumed. It was, ind eed, only within the lag ten years—ten short but sad years ! that the country had never, during that period, been free from the tread of foreign troops, and, what was still more, of foreign (generals holding commands over British soldiers. We owed this mischief, to say no more of it, to the late wars. It was, let Noble Lords think as they pleased, a calamity mach to he deprecated ; fur the '9th of George .the Second would show them hat their noble fathers thought in the creut of such a measure. Expellee also offered another argument against the mewure. The expellee of raising the foreign cavalry, numbering 27,000 . men, was 50,0001. ; while the expellee of 174,000 British cavalry did not exceed the sum of 174,C001. . Another objection oceurreth Fo. reigners, whether Lieutenant-Colonels or Gene. ails, were on full pay, when natives, of the same rank, were but on half.pay. The must important consideration still was the appointment of forciior officers to command in this country. The 4:oh of the King applied only to catreme eases ; we were nut in. any extreme ease al this ; besides, their Lordships would act wisely were to re. consider an Act which. had p.:sses! the Iforrse oa the 14th of July, when the lateness of the Sessiou precluded that attention which would undoubtedly .have been paid to a measure of immediate im portance, and ultimate cunsequ.asee. Convinced was he that the extensive powtas given to the King by this. Act, were neve,- contemilawd by the Le. gislature. Since the Kinwnight now appriiirt fo reign General Officers, what was there to prevent lain from preferring foreigners to fill the • post of Commander.in.Chief ? Assort:illy this was, their Lordships knew, utterly at variance with the older and better wage of our Government. The lath tude of the foreign letters of service extending to Germans, Pules, and Dutchmen, all the subjects of France, whom each nas bound to lOCTC, 'nas unwise and impolitic. We were thus increasing ftie number of those on Whom we could nut Lae lessly rely. His Lordship concluded by moving two resolutions, the iitirpoit of viVielt . nas— ThSt the commanders of foreign soldiers here should be natives of Britain : and that, final:kg that no less, than five foreign officers now held commands in the country, it was highly expedient for the House to adopt such measures as should restore the usages of better timea. Lord LIVERPOOL said, that the Noble Lord, just sat down, had made oat nothing on which to ground his present motion. The, 45th of the King was, he would call it, an act of cons:itu. tional indemnity ; and it was then deemed suffi cient to all the ends of liberty, if Parliament was properly apprised of the number of foreign forces about to enter the country, Int,l at what time they catered it. The late scars `:;Li svo:lered the intro. ductiun of such force unavoidable ; but thew hole of that . force, throughout the United Kingd:tio, did not exceed 16;000 men. Constitutionally, . there could, therefore, be no dir:izulty. The Nu. ble Lurd had adverted to the lateness of the Ses. sion at which the Act of the 45th of his Majesty was passed, a delay which SIAS owing to unfore. teen circumstances ; but which might have been remedied in 1806, when the same act was, during the middle of the Session, actually and delibe rately renewed. Ilad Government abused the latitude thus given to them ? Was there much of danger in the employment of foreign military force, when there were uut 5000 of such force Its these realms ; and when the rest, lighting fur ns abet:mi l •actael aciently and honourably ? As to the full pay of this feta, was notoceounting. for circumstances, more than the half.pay .:1 * our own troops ; nor could he see why, on the whole, foreign salalitqa ahoultl not here enjoy those few advantages which had been hiokezto allowed to them. Within • the walls of that house, withlia the walls of the ether•Hunie, there was not the man, he would hope, whatever might bu found without, who felt insensible of the benefit of availing ourselves, during this conjancture of af. fairs, of the military service of foreigners. He must, for his part, resist the motion of the Noble Lord. Lqrd ROSSLYN rose principally to hear testi mony to the military services of the foreign troops, tspecially to those of the German Legion, en gaged by this country. Scriotisly as he %vas dis poseil to dispute the constitutionality of employ. in; the foreign military, still from what he knew of their deeds, it would be unpardonable ittiesliee to them, on his put, if he did not speak of their military services in high terms. Os iii; . to their unacquainteduess with our shipping, they had fre quently suffered ; they had lost not 'cps Oran 30 officers and 850 privates within some few nianths. During the battle of Tulavora they 'lost 40 offircis and 1000 mesa ; ankl yet, without murmuring, they continued foremost io every danger, and submit. ting to every difficulty. This he felt compelled , now to say. NeithAr was the expense of raising thorn rightly stated. ; Looking to the Act in ques tion, though, as a nalettered man, as one -ha/AUM in ed Kill!the nivel distinotions of interpretation. As to the point of employing fo. reign military aid, averse though he was to it in system, there were, he must own, circumstances under whiCh such assistance might, and ought to be had. -Foreign officers, however, never had in this country the superior commands ; .either they acted under our own Lietttenatit.Generak. or else they were confined to the command of their own brigades. No foreign► offie.:rs, except acciden tally, were otherwise appointed to the command of British troops.' Tito Earl of LIVERPOOL rising to explain, moved, " That the other . Orders ut the Day be now read." Lord GRENVILLE rose, and admitted gene. rally the fairness of the Noble Secretary's state ment; although hu could nut help adverting to a material inaccuracy in that statement. It was true, that in the ybar 1801, tile introduction of fureigo troops to this gountry hal been sanctioned under the Administration of Mr. Pitt. But while se rious and legal doubts had arisen on that subject,. much of the objection was removed by those troops hav'og been destined to act in the North of Germany. In the year ISA a similar mea. sure had been propirt d , in the middle of a Ses sion, when the Administration to n hich he had the honour to belong, felt theinseiteF humid under all the circniustances of the ease, to adopt it.— There was indeed no option left, at the period, re ferred to, for the Ministers to take. lle could not avoid on this occasion to repeat what lie had often before found it necessary to observe in the of his Majesty's present rs, their constant disposition upon any particular charge, not to attetept *their defence upon the obvious ground of the accusltioti, but to screen and hide themselves under the sanction of precedents which they wonkl twist and torture into analogy. Be admitted the expediency of reta;oilig foreign troops, under due restrictilus, auil for peculiar services ; bur fully agreed eith hi. Noble friend and Relative (Load Kin;), that great eaution was necessary in the difieeition of tudi troops, and that great Lircuil,pietion t huuld be used in the appointment of Commander, • LordiaIVERMOL isioscal the O. of the Day, which being agreid to, without dissent, the adjourned debate, was resumed on the BM for consolidating the various clauses sur Acts which inflict capital punishments for oilenees coolmitted against the revenue. Some conversation took place, whew it was realmd that, instead Of re. furring the Bill to a Select Committee, it should be delivered to an open Committee of all such Peers am h.td, during the present Sessiou, given their attendance. The House then adjourned. Ifu OF COMMONS, Arnit.l2. On the initinn of Sir WILLIAM CURTII, the second riading: of 'Le 13lackfriars Solidity Toll Ilia owl pumponed to Tiksday Mr. JOHNSI'O!: broo :St up an Account of Cowipensa r..its tt.e tultoin:hou Oilicere• I rdttereland,recom priice scar the Abolitt.)n rCeb. ul —Od to oo the SNItTiIFII:I.I3 ItIAttKET BILL. Sir C. PRICE moved the second reading of the Bill for the removal . • the Smithfield Market. — He made some obst'r li -Jos in defence of the Bill, and said, that the C. . ration of the City of Lon. dun was ready to arty clauses that. might secure fiuni 111x...idermati COM .'E disapproved of the Bill, h came, as ho contended, it infringed on the Ch •rter of the City of London. He moied that the Bill be read this rlay•six months. Mr. ROSE supported the BA. Ile was con. winced, that if .the Bill were sent to a Committee, proof sufficient would be given of the necessity of removing the market. Mr. MARTIN thought that sufficient reasons bad nut been assigned for the removal of the market. As to the.clatises. that were to be pro. posed, ho ridiculed them. He eonlidered them in effect to wake the Act say, if an overgrown ox came in your. nay, " show me," to make him g.tt out of it! Mr. WILBERFORCE likened the present question to unc that occupied the attention of the House same years since, namely, the plan fur establishing penitentiary hoses. All mankind ac knowledged the wisdom of that plan, but nu one could agree as to the places where they should be erected. So with the market ; all said that the removal would be boueficial to the metropolis in general, but it was difficult. to agree as to the place to which it should be remond. lie called. upon the House to support the Bill. Mr. LEE KECK contended for the removal of •tke, market, as there was a great and grievous want of rotes in the present market. There was not a year of his lite that Iv.a L . :id not stiffer ,geeat loss from the injury that eettle.....hal that - he I , ad Sent to that market, owing to its' being so Confined. 1.1.: supported the second reading. Mr. SIMEON opposed the removal of the market, as he thought it would be attene.,d,with mischievous effects to-the 'inhabitants surreuedlng the place of the proposed new market. Mr. JACOB was aware that the Bill had evils, but he was for the Bill going into a Committee, in order to find out it they twilit not be remedied. Sir JAMES SHAW supported the Amend. men t. Mr. W. SMITII wished . the Lill to go into a Committee. • Mr. HAWKINS BROWNE spoke in favour of the Amendment. Strangers were then ordered to uithdraw, when a division took place, ,• For the Ameadmehr - - 'gainst it - S 7 - 74 • . Ittnimity 2rtinst the second rending 17 Mr. D. GIDDY 144vetl for leave to bring jo a Bill for regulating the 'node of allowing the Ac. counts of Church„ ;miens anti Overwre of the I'oor,by Justices of the Peace.—Leave given. -Mr. ROSE -moved, .that the 11911`V, to.trior. t 4. go into a Committee, to hitt, tonal , stood for tomorrow, respecting the East Indies, to Monday next. - MR.IIIINT'S DEFALCATION.. CALCRArr rose. lie had, be said, given. hotice of two motions, the one respecting the very reprehensible , conduct of the Board of Ord. ranee, in not taking security for the fidelity of gr. Hunt in the responsible situation he filled ; the other, for the expulsion of Mr. Hunt, as a Member of that House. The latter motion he should postpone for the present, as certain docu. went: necessary to be in the hands . of Ntembr , were not yet printed." The former motion he should bring on now, in doing which, he felt it qnite usinecessary to trouble the House at any length ; the facts were in the mselves so Sim ple, and the duty for the House to pass a strong eansete on the parries implicated, so obvious and so ur. gout. It 'appeared .from the General Orders in the reign of Charles !I that a regulation was -im posed upon the Board of Ordnance, by the neg. lea of which, in the case. of Mr. Hunt, that Board had been guilty of a great and reprehensi ble omission, whereby the public had sustained a loss of 10,0001. and for whicb, according to every principle of justice, they ought to be re— , sponsible. Under the general order to which he alluded, the Board was bound to oblige the Trea. surer, before he was allowed to proceed upon the duties of his office, to find securities for 10,0001. such as the Board should think eligible, and as the -Treasury should approve. But although Mr. Hunt had, for thesecond time, been appointed to this office so far back as 1807, ho was never obliged by the Board to enter into any sureties, and he abieonded from his office,. and left the country with a deficit in his accounts, as appeared from toe Ordnance Returns, of 93,29it1. It ap peared from the Report on the table, that a letter had been writt.oi to Mr. Hunt by Mr. Crewe. Se cretary to the Board, and dated April 2`2, 1807, shortly ak-..r tree appointment of Mr. Hunt, re quiring hint to enter into Cm sureties prescribed ; but front that time forth it did not appear, by any ducument accompanyinz the Relort„ or by Irby evideoce whatever, that any further slept , were taker/ by the Board to oblige Mr. Hunt to give the necessary secoriiies. Now this eas so i:alpable a breach of duty on the part of tile Boarii, as it was ill possible to pass by without cimstare, consistently with any attention to the responsibi . - lity of public officers trust.::: with tl:e money of the country. If the Board had any defence to offer for this flagrant omission, be should be glad to hear it. lie had searched and enquired for . a motive in evory quarter, but coal find ionc.— The Board o:' Ordnance were amply paid for their own services ; they were an: 13:y aleed by suborai. trate office's ; ihey sat lot' t,,ve days in A s eck, and, therefore, could btt: o nu pl e a of being so overwhelmed with business as not to have' time to attend to their duty in •thiti case; iii f a ct, they could have no . excuse. There was something lie. culiarly indulgent in, the conduct of the Board t 9 this Gentleman, Mr. Hunt, on the ground of sure. ty, fur which he (Mr. Calcraft) was tutaTly at a loss to account. 'Upon Mr. Hunt'i fist appoint ment to-the treverership, in 1603. he was sobered to remain eighteen months in his office without pro ducing his sureties ; and after his second appoint. pent,, three whole years passer! without obliging him to produce any. Having stated these facts, he felt nothing more now necessary than to state to the House .the Resolutions he had to offer. It Might be said that that regulation laid down in the General Order of Charles the Second was only imperative upon the Master of the Ordnance. But every one knew, that for a lung series of years the official management of the Ordnance business de volved upon the - Board. At present, he believed there was no such otilm-r as the Master-General of the Ordnance ; and he did not mean to impute the slightest blame to Lord Chatham, who, he be ieved, knew nothing whatever of 'the transaction.. The lion. Member then read his Resolutions as f o llow • Ist. Resolved, " That it appears to this House, that Jos. Hunt, Esq. Member of this House, has been twice Tem surer of his Majesty's Board of Ordnance. That he was nearly 18 months in that Office on his first appointment, in 1803, before any security was obtained; and that on his se conil appoiatinent, in 1807, it is not recorded in the Ordnarie'e Department, that any security whatever was given by hies. 2.." That it appears to tai House, there is a balance ui 93,9.9G1. apinst the said Joseph Hunt, Esq. as late Trea surer of the Ordnance. S. " 'Nat it appears to this House. the Master-General of his Maieity's Oriliiaticels directed in the original instructiota of Kitt; Charles 11. under which he and the Bot.rd now Oct, to take from the Treasurer alma his first entrance on tnee‘e cutiota of his place, security to such an amount as he may judge necessary, and as shall be aporoveil of by tire Itca /ury. 4. " That it appears to this house, the sceirity ti!cen in the first Treasurership of Joseph Haat, Esq. n•sai ly eighteen months after his entrance on the executiJa of his place, was 10.0001. 5. " That it appears to tl:is House no security was taken* on the second appointment of Joseph Hunt, 6. " That it is the opinion of this House the slaster43ene ral and Board of Orsloance base bee/ guilty of a Breata 1111' Lislcurtions under which they art, and by w:iieh they ought to be formed, in neglecting to take security from Jo seph Hunt, a Member or this House ; and are respo .sible to answer its to this omission of duty, which. from the state of the bill:mem a ; :aiiist the said Josepk Huut, :I.t.a actually occa sioned a loss of 10,0101. to the public. Mr. ASHLEY COOPER, did not rise to op pose the motion of Mr. Calcraft, but merely to propose two other Resolutions, the one, stat. ing in substance, that the Board had required the necessary. securities, and the other granting kale to slug in a BM to regulate the mode of granting securities in such cases. lie, however, thought the Resolutions now proposed rather se. me, and said that there was no general charge of suspicion. or 'Olivet' against the Board. Mr. PONSONBY.ezpressed his astonishment at the odd sort of defence set up by the Honour: able Gentleman. 'What had the Bill he proposed to do with the punishment of past, and utsdessi. able neglect of public duty ? There was a cle Wuctlittlisu .autl if j p ese Houso would . . l IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 12. . . but that had nothing to do, with the p ' • i-e-e -nnetp af th qaestion. If the House pleased this over it e woo ., people '''' be a vain attempt to persuede theof 4. qonntry that the House paid the sm a ll est naafi : lai the publiein terests. AIr.,PERCEVALedid not deny, that rho" h—au.,i been a neglect of duty , but he th,, ae l is the sure proposed was rpther , in the ext:ro... ~ cea n. . l. ) 0 0 1 was nut lutt to the ptiWie ; for the person h,, • had absconded was himself boil to the a tstiai ll t . ,,i 5.0001. of the whale s..m. At tae F. tile Bui e i,': .lid not mention Otis as a pelkatioe of th e ite - ,i ''':, the e a al. 'that had occurred. lie spoke highly in e „, m , l "'„ ee ` datiun of fee terraces of Mr. Crate e , 3,,i l th ou they had a strong t hien in the pre eat ; : , sta ' , lt upon. the licioe. Ile th•felitled the l i i ,,t,e,„ ‘i the remedy. ill the Bill leoposeii hi his ii:' Friend, and thole:of. the I,: eveliti ill o f m ,,,-, Cut ` l ' , sequence than the pen is!::aeni of alt Milivit ila t " l'ilr. BM - WA:kJ sell, that he did wit feel hid . self bound to consider tipuil whuo was to fall, but simply whether the censure i 0,4 was not just. He ridicilluil tee i'ea of a ili ii . t eotnpel every public officer to do his the y. I I: admitted he should feel pain in the vote he o an about to give, but no such consideration Was 13 deter him from his duty. Mr. WHITBREAD cupid not conceive o t et could be the extraordinary weight of business, that occupied a Board sitting but three ti me , I week, so much as to prevent their attention t i , minor ditties, as they had been railed. Did o il Board took over the minutes of their proceedion upon the last day of ineetine, on the iiettesticeted. in; day ? Anothor point was, that there had bent no Master-General of the Ordnance fora (nolo, Could the Board coiniiiiie to do witheet o er moat efficient officer ? lie denied that the irm oo l censure was as severe as it hail been alleged; i was contained in one word, censorable, for the rest of the Resolutions relat. it simply towel of fret. If the House, conlil overlook the me now before them, it n oish'i be as will not to h' , alfegaLi-ns of this kind et all. lit submitted it t...e orodestli of the !loose, if they could accede'. the very qu dif.e.l eilistire proposed by die !tip. Honourable (xentleitiau. • lalr. G F.OII.GN JOHNSTONE contendel that the. loss sustained coedit be only regarded 2,5001. front tacit suray. It __ would he vieois ti.. matter too ligli!i• ; to pass by this conduct', the llo:..ril• altogether without censure; brit stOli could not go the full lete;th of the Resolutions. I Ile should move, instead of the Vote of Consort, " rant, the Board of Oidoarme had hero guilty of sou • lion of their duty in ne.,leeti;:g to take sechritses from J Mot. Eq. a Member ut this House, as;o late Trei: 9l3 the lewd of 01 Jnanre, cut:form:oly to the itatructiosi a. which they acted." Mr. GA I.C.;11-AF I' sobroitted, in reply, that would be setting at deli-wee every idea of ikeenc every portion of 'delicacy on the part of the llou of Commons, and every netion of I:tiblic dee rum, to pass over the conduct of the BOali Ordnance in the business now snider ronsidi ran Why did the country give high salaries fort Support of these Gentlemen, mid palaces fur t' - to live in, but that they should do their duty Mr. Crewe, the Secretary, on, whom the Iti Hon. Gentleman wished to throw all the blame this case, cat at the bottom of their table to ceive and follow up their orders ; and it would but an oCeepation of part of the waste time of t other five Members of time Board to look MA the preceding minute's, and see that the Resoled. were duly enforced. He appealed -to Gentle in the other Public Boards, if it was not I practice, lifter a reasonable time—after such a ter as this to Mr. Punt had been written byt e orders, to inquire if an answer had bean made it ? Here Mr. 11. had been 18 months during former Treasurership before he foinul tenet and in his last Treasurership he had g iven no I madly at all. The Secretary was occupied day, and during the whole day ; the other hers were, occupied only four hours cf the during four days of the week ; and pct it was petted that the Secretary should earryaterYt' in hisonemory, and that the rest nf the B should not be responsible fur any thing. lie did think it necessary to iusist on the amount d loss to the contitry—be it 10 4 000!. 5,0001. 0 shilling, the lion. G e ntlenien opproife %ta cit tire liable for it to the Public. li e disclaimed idea of talking of them as political men ; in light he did nut consider the Board of Gehl W ortli powder attil shot. lie only cotnended that should do their duty. All he wished tne II to say was, that they, having salaries from Public, wore responsible fur the discharge of duty. He theta asked, had they dole their • in this instance? If they had nut, did it not follow that they were censurable for kolag elected it ? This he esteemed one of the mod a o nd o i r m . p h o i r o t t a is n e t . pr i ii i i e ci urge it against the Board as political .(0.!0:_ the Right Hon. Gentlethan suppose, 11 ,.. 14 . , viewed it in this light, that he Ives so !nu . t;:ected that lie could not hare ensured a , 1 ,,", ! !: tendance than as then in the How. r. ceived the drat which hat been ecelecteocte: a l) g le a s in w d h ella c red ul t thralitchdeidsia loog . chie fl y to the Clerk to the Oslo!' „. when he was at that Board he esteemed It t collar duty. if the House would I.osgtii With bins, he should deem it mo. , t , , otr.to.' nate; but if the lion. Gentleman 5 ___„ stone's) was more polatable, lie would' ,ctrl it, when he could not get more. matter offal 'rho first Resolution, as to the m garding Mr. Hunt's appointment, was sheet and agreed to. • . Whin 15 On the second part of the Res.) facts, that i' i Mi. ASHLEY COOPER stated, I been aPP tleman of the name or Ridge had II 110. G IP Agent of Artificers while the not g t o t u i nil , I though WO (Mr. Calceeft) was in of fi ce, an d ,_ 0 a of money had passed thrtugh his hoot, 1 tics had been given by bitn. naia il as in • ono,' wf .....t:t .....•*"." '''' - ''''- , l' Mr. CALCRAFT conceived hitng,e.::o.- * l~ 1 11 ,} Ems" M. 'W i~ silo t Cale; ~~tICI ~il::p tour Isi, i b.,,f • :,.! 1x• ti Ivit it WI cotil cTt'l c'sc tiL IN" 41 1..