The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-06-16 00:00:00

1 R ~ ~~ ~. ~J • 4 .~~ ~~ f , ;y . .~~ F .., . k ~~ ' t 1, . t , , 4 • , 1 • I %.,.. i , ' 4 1 i kr. r 1 ; ' ; I 1 I num vt as found wholly inadequate to the Just claims upon it, and it would he the height of cruelty and injustice to deprive the unfortunate widows and chil dren of deserving Officers who had fallen itt their country's service, of this scanty allowance. At this moment it was a most heart-vending task foe th• Irish Government to deny further aid to those wh• CO much required it. Sir JOHN NEWPORT.' warmly supported the last clause of the Bill. Gentlemen had been loudly calling upon the House not to abandon a solemn le kislatiy.e.eniictrOnt, sire had been among the first to violifts it. The fact was, that for several years the Civil List Act bad been abandoned, and charges were made upon the •Privy Parse, that it was ex pressly provided should be paid out of the Civil List ; among these was a sUm of 10,0001. annually, pro vided for by Parliament, for the House of the thief Seeeetary, and for buildings in Dublin . Castle. Ile complained that the Pensions were not conAtied to &set slug ohjects and he instanced the case W Sir Jelin Shore, who, in his opinion, had no claim upon the country ; the truth was, that it was converted int.- a fac•ious list instead of continuing a pension list: . - It *as unjustifiable that the public should he called upon to make au additional sacrifice for what had been already provided for by the Act of 1793.-1 The object of the promoter of the Bill was, that public and . not party services should be rewarded, and when pensions were devoted to that purpose they became marks of honour instead of °ppm bium. Mr. GOOCH and Mr. BROWN opposed the Bill very shortly. Mr. COURTNEY contended that the Bill was unconstitutional and illusive in its enactments, par ticularly as it related to Officer/ paid out of the Civil List, and out of the Hereditary Revenues of the Crow n. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) likewise resisted the Bill, disapproving both of its principle and of its details. According to its Preamble, should it be adopted, all those to whom pensions were given would be as much budged as dependants on the Crown, as the poor were as dependants of the parish. Lord COCHRANE said; that though the amount of the Sinecures themselves could not be con sidered as any thing very serious in point of re venue, yet that the improper bias and influence thereby generated, did of themselves constitute a main objection to the principle of Sinecures. He had, when the right time came, an Amendment to propose respecting the power of the Creivn to grant those Sinecures. Mr. BARING objected to that provision of the Bill which gave the Crown the power of apportion ing out, according to its discretion, amongst the Judges, the value of the several Sinecure Offices iu the Courts of Justice. He thought it should be divided amongst the Judges according to some predeter mined rule, as the principle of making and keeping the Judges independent of the Crown, could not be too tenaciously adhered to. He thought that they should be divided among the Judges in proportion to their existing salaries. Lord BINNING protested against the coosolida. tion of certain Sinecure Offices in Scotland. hlr. BA LAKES, io reply, adverted to the objections that had hden made to some of the provisions of the Bill,—with respect to that of its having a teadene to degrade all those who accepted pensions. He thought that any objection of that sort was suffi eicntly obviated by the words of the Preamble—as to the power given to the Crown to divide, at its own discretion, the profits of whatever Sinecures should fall amongst the Judges, the objection that had been trade by an Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Baring) had occurred to him (Mr. Bankes), but he knew not how to remedy it ; if they were equally divided amongst the Judges, as the patronage hitherto be belonged to the Chief Judge, it would not be fair to wards him, and yet it was most desirable that no thing should be taken from the emoluments of a situ ation that did not yield, in his opinion, a salary ade quate to its dignity and trouble. He however was open to any Amendment, upon this part of the Bill, the Honourable Gentleman should propose. The SPEAKER, before he put the question for the third reading of the Bill, wished to advert to an objection made by an Honourable Member to the third reading, on the ground of au informality—some of the provisions of the Bill affecting the Civil List, and no consent on the part of the Crown having been given, this objection did, not, in his opinion, preclude the third reading of the Bill ; but he thought that it would be contrary to the usage of the House for the last century, if the Bill was permitted to pass without the consent of the Crown having been previously obtained. The Bill was then read a third time. Mr. BANKE brought up a Clause providing that no part of the Bill sh ou ld affect the salary of any existing officer in any of the Courts of Justice, which was agreed to. Mr. LOCK HART considered Skis Ciente as ob viating his objections to the Bill. Sir W. CURTIS brought up a Clause, exempting, the Mayoralty and other Co ur ts o f th e ity of Lon don, from the operation of this Act—which, after an observation from Mr. Wrottesley, who thought that the exemption should extend to other Corporations at well as London, was agreed to. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) proposed, that the' , words in the Preamble " provided they should need such assistance," be left oat. He repeated his ob jections to his principle of the Bill, and said that the Honourable Gentlemen (Mr. Bankes) was as end. moored of the Bal . 's the lover in the play of his mistress, and liked it for its very faults-. , but he,stjli thought the Honourable Gentleman would, cite? lose this his mistress. He would Bud this Bill ano ther Eurydice, and lose it at the moment he was sues of it—like another ill-fated Orpheus—[a laugh]. Te dulcis coqiux—[a laugh]. lie engaged the at", tentiou of—Orpheus—[a [fug/I].-11e weird ultii mately lose her—he. might depend upon it—Te ve o nienie die, be deeedente r anetal— [ a laugh]. The Amendment was then put from the Chair, and 'the gallery cleared for a division. Nti For the Amending:it( Apioot - Majority 'molest it r 11 After strangers were admitted, Mr. ROTTESLEY tteut into a short esplims.. lF $: I I THE "Tom AN. ............1111.••••••----r—T,..,, . 4 ~ tlon of the nature of the Office of tho Co trllpe bil Court of Chancery: Mr. FITZGERALD then moved the omission of the clause regarding the Irish Pension List. Mr. HUSKISSON observed, that Irelantl had not it pressed one shilling of• disposeable revenue. It appeared to him that the amount of thelrisi, Pee sion List was out of all proportion greater, com pared with the revenue, than that of the other parts of the empire. It ought to be remembered, that this was a charge of which the people of this part of the United Kingdom Imust pay 15-17ths. . Sir JOHN NEWPORT said the Irish RavenWe was not only not adequate to the charges, but there was even a deficit of 534,0001. for this very year. Mr. FITZGERALD explained, When the House divided. For the Amendment - Against it 59 . 6) Majority again - A it • 1 After some further discussion, the further conside ration of the Bill was postponed to Wednesday next. COLONEL M'M AIION. Lord CASTLERFAGH had to communicate to the house, that his Royal Highness the Prince Re. gent had been pleased that the salary of Ms Private Secretary (Colonel M'Mahon) should be paid out of the Privy Purse. He could have wished to see an Honourable and Learned Member in his place who had given notice of a motion on this subject (Mr. Horner, we believe), as perhaps he would not, un der such circumstances, now think it necessary to bring it forwastip• r t Mr. PONSONST;said, he believed his lionoura• ble and Learned riimict would consent to withdra* • his notice. • 1 LordTARMOUTH was sure there could be no [possible difference between himself and his Bight Honourable Friend as to what really passed. Me would not, however, say any more on the subject at present. Mr. HUSKISSON moved for an Account of the Duties on British and Foreign Spirits, except Rum ; on Timber, Pot and Pearl Ashes, &c.'for the year ending sth April, 1812.—Ordered. COMMITTEE 101 SUPPLY.—ARMY EXTRAORDI NA it I ES.—IiAsT•IN DIA LOAN. The House having gone into a Committee of Supply, Mr. WALLACE rose to move the sum of 2 > 500 0001. by way of loa n to th e Fast India Corn piny. • He said he should not enter into minute financial statements ; but, as it was intended to in. dude the vote to the East India Company in the loan for the year, he thought it necessary to assure the House of the security' which existt'd for the repay. ment of the sum prayed for by the petition. He was aware that various applications had been made by the Company during the last two years ; bat it should be remembered, that the loans which had I been granted, were the means, not o n ly o f t h e ex. I tension, but of the security of the territory in India. I The debt under which they now laboured had arisen from no mismanagement on the part of the Company. He must also observe, that if the papers in possession i of the House were looked into, it would appear that there was a material difference between the deficit and the sure now ukel. The deficit was f 3,500,000, while the sum prayed for by the petition was only ,e 2.500,000; but he should be doing great injustice to tbktrest repollid ItttlM,•aud great injustice to the . East India Company, if he did not state that in reality the Loan actually adianced by the public had been three fotwths anticipated by payments made in India for the public service. The Hon. Member then read, from the printed documents, various items of sump so advanced, among which were the follow ing:— Navy £OO,OOO Supplies, Stores, &c. to Ceylon :. 580,000 Military Service . 134,000 Expeuces or the Expedition to Java 5;4,u01.) The gross amount he stated to be upwards of four millions, which left a balance in favour of the East India Company amounting altogether to kt,sp,ooo; so that the whole sum truly borrowed Tram The pub lic, in the Loan, was only t 900,000 ; and he trusted, that in whatever state the 'affairs of the East India Company might be, their security was at least good for that sum. The Loan, he contended, was not to burden the country, but merely to enable the Corn. pang to carry on their affairs till a complete invest': gation of them should take place, which must soon be done in that Mouse. He then concluded by moving' the sum of 1 3 2,500,000 to be.voted in the . Committee. Mr. CREEVEY said, he objectedaltogether to ths. sum being voted, and that he should- oppose it is I every stage. The history of the Petition, he said, was curious. It was presented on Tuesday last at a very late hour, by a Member of the East India Com pany; it was ordered to be referred to a Committee above stairs. The lion. Gentleman carried it there, and was himself a Member of the said Committee; they assembled about seven in number, and after having profoundly deliberated for five minutes upere the innumerable questions coanected with the - Cona• pany's affairs, they reported upon the Petition, and' said that nothing could be so proper or so safe, as to lend the sum required,—[..4 laugh.]-1149 hoped - x . however, the House would not come to a vote in the absence of all information. The Company's debt 2 l he contended, arose as much from commercial blun ders. as from wars, though the Hon. Gentleman, wished to insinuate diet the latter were the all-suffi cient source of that debt. The nonsensical fooleries of Petitions to Parliament had been going on since 1806, and during that time, eight millions of money had been advanced to them ; that was, four millions by way of loan, and four more they stould be able to raise by bonds, He believed, however, it was doing much more injury to the East India Company, than to the Sttfte, lending such sums. The experi ment had been tried for thirty years, and what was the result? Why, that they were by their own statement, fifteen millions worse than nothing at the present moment ; and that, notwithstanding they put the best value upon all their forts, &c. making them all assets cif course.—[A laugh.]—lt was, tor sure, an excellent thing for the East India om pany to have such a comfortable ally in the Govern.' ment, that they could come down year after year for loans, and sure never to be refused.— [4 laugh.]—lt was a comfortable thing too, to be an East India Director. [A laugh.] Ile did not Care how things went; he had his 1.0001. East India Stock, his patronage, hi the way of writerships, dits, &c. and all was very well. Then the Proprie tors, also, the Ladies and Gentlemen composing the Prilted Company trading_, to the East Indies- 7 1A, .40101—.eesieiveci theirthridendt, arid - all went os %try well—UaughterF-and the said Ladies and Gentlemen assembled once a yea,. to decide which six among them were' most fit to regulate the desti nies of fifty millions of people. Thus their affairs wont on, and thus they would have gone on, if rthere had not been such a thing in this country as commercial interest, which commercial interest feel ing itself a little pinched, perhaps by the Orders la Council—la laugh)-began to thiltk some little re liief might be found if they cook) send a ship or two to India. In behalf of that commercial interest alone, 'he thought it would be imprudent to let the money go without a. further investigation of the af fairs of the Company. He concluded by observing, that he should feel it his duty to resist granting one farthing of money till something more should be known than what could be learned from the sheet of paper which the Honourable Gentleman had used as his document. Mr. it. THORNTON observed, that the Hon. Gentleman most have been 'unintentionally misin formed respecting the Company being fifteen millions worse than nothing at the present moment. At the wine time, he could not but compliment him upon the good humour he had displayed ; a good humour not veri usual with him, when speaking of the East 'lndia Lempany's affairs. Year after year he had hpen using a warning voice on the subject. He wawa sort of memento stnori [a laugh] ; but though he (Mr. Thornton) had. no doubt that the East India Company, like every thing mortal, would have its MINTRTRRIAL NEGOCIINtIONS. Mr. SHERIDAN rose to give notice of his inten tion to bring forward a Motion on Wednesday next. He was sure there was no person i* the Rouse who felt more deeply than himself how desirable it was to stand well in the public opinion ; but he was also sure that no person deserved the good opinion of the public who did not also desire to protect his personal honour when called in question. lie therefore took the earliest oppOttunity of expressing his purpose to bring forward a Motion on Wednesdarnest, desir ing farther official information respecting the nego ciations which had been lately carried on for a change of Ministers; and he now applied to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to allow him to take an early hour on that day. lie should merely make a brief statement of facts, which would lead to no discussion, and which he was sure would ad mit or no contradiction. After the statement which he should make, there would not be a living being, he believed, in the character of a gentleman, who would countenance any reflection on his honour or character. ; Lord YARMOUTH was aware how unparliamen. tary a proceeding it was to refer to any thing that had taken place on a former debate. He hoped, I however, the House ‘rould permit him to say, that when le made a statement to them on a former night respecting a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. She ridan), he certainly did fancy he saw him sitting in his place. As, however, that was not the case, and as what he had said had been misrepresented, he copld now restate to him what lie had then expresesd. --Vries of No! by a few, and a more general ay " of Go on !]—When the Right Hon. Gent. alluded to the public, he meant hint (Lord Yarmouth) in the pub. lic—he was not more titan one in the public ' • and there might be persons out of doors capable of put ting an unfavourable construction on his silence. IHe felt sure the Right lion. Gentleman was con vinced he had not misstated what had passed between I them • though what he had stated had certainly been misrepresented out of doors.—[Cry of Goan with the statement !]—He could not but express his grati- ' tude to the House for their good humour in allowing him to proceed. lie should do so without more sue.' plusage than what was unavoidable by a man not in the habit of public speaking. He should now pro ceed to the statement, observing however that he had no thought of contradicting his Right Honour. able Friend. He did state to the House the other night, and he was happy now to restate it, because it was not heard by all, an intention on the part of a portion of the Household to resign. He stated that they had determined to resign—at least that a large number of them had determined to resign on such a change of Ministers as would induce a , change of measures. He further stated, that they had made this determination known to the highest quarter with all possible respect, ' and that three great officers in particular had stated, within twenty- , four hours of each other this determination to those persons who might then be considered as at the head of the Government ; in other words, that they made their intention to quit their situations known to the political chiefs of their party. Their intention to do so was certain, though it was . combated in a.certaial quarter of the "highest 'respectability. With I regard to what bad passed between his Right Ho. nourahle Friend and himself, he would now restate it to the House. 44 My Right Honourable Friend and myself," continued the Noble Lord, " hap.. pened to meet one evening in a well-known place, where we were accustomed to spend our evenings.— I hear, Aid he, you are all plug to resign.-1 s aid we were.—Let me desire of you, said he, as an old! Ifriend, not to do so—take my advice and think bet- I ter of it—we will talk of it, if you please, to.. morrow.—l then observed, what you say will al ways have more weight with me than any man in I this kingdom. Accordingly we appointed an hour 'next day to talk further on the subject, but as the )Right Honourable Gentleman did not come at his hour, I went out without seeing him that day."— His Lordship was about to proceed with his state• ment, when , Mr. SHERIDAN rose. He did not wish to stop any Member while addressing the House ; but as he lad already given antic, of a motion, when every `,person would have an opportunity of making what sibiervation's he thought proper, he submitted it to the alseretion of the Noble Lord, whether or not he lotted to proceed farther with his statement , at 'ibis Itline. if, however, the Noble Lord was so inclined, ttndthd House thought fit he should now proceed, he lkoiSed they would also allow him and any other 'Member an opportunity . of afterwards making such observations as might occur to them. , . T • 1 • A „*.A t: dv . end, he would givetholorttueresnatnhbdeeeryitiehareersiSitepa,:eharisif,h !net, a " dm M i a tred yo th u ey liv h e a l d t tb y Il a n shewn themselves honest debtors, and had paid wirit they owed. The truth was, it was wonderful thew had struggled as they had, for the whole period of their charter had been one of continued war. It wa s no less tree, however, that they had now compered every think id India that was to be conquered; and at a very great ezpence they had acquired the qui et possession of a country which produced 16,00°,00 01• of revevtue. It should be remembered also, that they, the East India Company', paid four millions yearly to thrievenne of the country, and that was a 5,, , „ not to be sneezed at. [Great laughter.] The Direr. tors, he contended, had not bee.' to blame in a ny thing they had done. The present estimate was corn. plained of on the ground of its not having baen re. (erred to the Committee of Inpply. It was not, however, from any commercial blunders that th e present demand proceeded. The Company had lo ng been pouring is large contrib u ti ons to the Exohequer, and he joined 41 the wish that the time might not b e fat' distant when the affairs might be thoroughly et. amined. Sir THOMAS TURTON declared, that he had heard uo grounds whatever laid to induce the House to grant away, under the present financial circum. stances of the country, so large a sum of the public money. What security had the Right Ifon. Geut. shewn on the part of the Company ? Goods unsold, and consequently in a state of deterioration, were reckoned as assets at their original value. If the Company were in distress, was not the cots s 150? And were they, at a time when a loan of %mim e . dented amount was wanted for the country, to de. press the money market, by adding so large a sum to it, without one tittle of evidence as to the fairness or validity of the grounds on which the application was made to them. Mr. C. GRANT denied that the Company owed one farthing to the Government; on the contrary, they were creditors and to a very large amount.— The ground of the present application was Ever since the institution of the Board of Controul, the Indian Government had been the joint co icern of the Company and the British Government. Since that period, more than 20 millions of debt had been contracted in support of various wars. This was al together a territorial debt, and had no connection with the Company's commerce. About 1J v• , ars ago, a principle entirely new was introduced into the system of borrowing in India. About 15 millions was raised upon bonds, stipulating the re-payment of the principal within a limited period in England. had been stated by a Noble Lord at the head of the Board of Controul, in 1803, that at the period when these bonds should become due, means would be . required to enable the Company to discharge them ; and no objection was then made to the prim'. ple. A great part of the debt had, however, been made payable in India, and a portion of it was to be liquidated at home. Compared to this country, In. dia-was certainly in a state of comparati►e prosperity, as her whole debt did not exceed two years' rent. As to the accounts not being more full, the papers had not yet arrived from abroad; but he had heard the lion. Gentleman complain, on former occasions, of the documents being too yeltimfooes. He was sorry that nothing would please hint. Ito again denied that the Company were in debt• td Government.— They had only, in the last nine/ears, borrowed one million and a half, and this they had already paid off. With respect to the notion of the Company being lessees, this was to his judgment an entirely new idea. Mr. HUSKISSON submitted the propriety of enlarging the sinking Fund applicable to India Loans, sou to provide for the redemption of the Company's debt within the period to be limited by the proposed charter. Mr. VANSITTA RT replied, that Government had bad this object in contemplation, but had not yet de cided on the mode. Mr. CREEVEY complained that in all discus sions on the Company's debt, the Directors blamed the political measures of the Board of Controul, while the Board asserted that the fault was with the commercial blunders of the Company. Mr. GRANT explained. Mr. HALL said, that 174 millions had been raised on optional bondsi would the present grant meet all the claims on the Company at heme Mr. WALLACE replied in the retire, and that there were three millions and a halt s ! the payment of which was not yet provided for. Mr. HALL then declared that this was what he had suspeCted, nothing was ever fairly brought before them. Mr. W. SMITH had no doubt, hearing the Right Hon. Gent. (Wallace) talk of liberality and justice, if the East India Company had arty claims on the counttfl, *hit they woofed ke Met waif - 141'y aegree of liberality and justice by that House. He was of opi nion, however, that in advancing 24 millions to the Company now, while they remained sahject to an ail ditional call on them of 34 millions, the House did i not exercise due liberality and justice to Ate Public; particularly, if the Proprietors of East India Stock were to go on receiving their dividends of 10 per percent. before the interest of the present loan *as paid. He was afraid, when the question of the Char ter came to be discussed, the refusal of any one point contended for by the Company, would be adduced a! a reason why the present loan could not be paid. Mr. WALLACE assured the Hon. Gentleman th;tt it was intended the interest of the present Dill should be paid before any dividend among the pro prietors was made. Mr. R. THORNTON concurred in this statement. All the Company/tow asked to borrow of the c oun try was, in fact, 000,0001. they having already ml vanced for the country 1,600,0001. There vo now, 1n their warehouses, as a security fur this su , l, and for their engagements in this country, foil'. nu- lions in value, and in March, 1813, if thei - sh i p s arrived, this would be increased to eleven millions. The louse then divided, Fur the Vote . Against it .. . 71 a Majority . . (16 ARMY EXTRAORDINARMS , In a Committee of Supply, after a pretty leng contersatiou on minor details) I 1 , c~ t I k i ',..: i v' M~ I •