The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-05-10 00:00:00

,~ should encounter' the brutality of an 'smile, or I the fury of a pickpocket; and finding they could not convey their feelings in a Common Hall, in a public manner, they assetebled privately, and pledged themselves to support the Constitution in its true loyal form of King, Lords, and Commons, expressing their confidence at the same time in the integrity of the King, the whitlow of Parliame2 and the honour and justice of the Judges. hoped men of real character would not be deterred by a raob from expressing their honest feelings in like manner. Ho had sherrn as muds indepen. dence as any man, and was not afraid to compare his political conduct with that of any individual whatever. lie had shown his disposition to eels. sure the son of a King, and the brother of Mr, Pitt; and he had also evinced his disapprobation of Sir Francis Burdett, who he conceived was ten thou. sand times more criminal than either the Duke 'of York or the Earl of Chatham ; but he would nei. ' ther juin in a Court faction nor a popular clamour. He averred that the House had nut transgressed its privileges, and what it had done was for the irate. tests of the people. No county had petitioned exceet the county of bliddleses, and that only from its vicinity to Safron.hilt.. Whets he saw other - petitions on the table, expressive of the real sense of the people of England, his opinion mighrt change—but until Alt wars the ease, he must con. echos that the major part of the country approved of the conduct of Parliturent. Whether it war is majority of the people or only the twelve mei who had signed the petition, he cared not, as it was not upon that ground that. he opposed it ; but he would ask if there Was arty man in the House who could put his hand upon his heart t end say that the petition, formed' as it was upon the reso. bidets!, was not meant as an insult upon the House ? If there Gras such a man, let him vote Grits reception—but as he did not think there was, he hoped it would he unanimously' rejected. He would forgive nonsense or folly ; but he could nut pardon instate, which was the direct eha. racter of the Petition. It had been agreed to by e few profligate desperadoes, who were only objects for criminal jestice, and in that feeling he could 'MA agree to its being received. SiP VTURTOPI I i .ir 1. I uR l th‘t ex plenum • Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, the subject before the House was one which required much deliberation ; a tenth/fey to which the speech of the llonourahle Gentleman had not in the 'slight. est degree exhibited. Re conceived it the date of the House to lisMi to the real 'or imaginary cum. plaints of the people: • The terms in which per sons who sustained a most material injury, ex. pressed their i sense of-that injury, 'should not be en obstruction to the application the remedy necessary foi its cure. The coraplaintle of the people should be attettileal . to with the runnel tulle, and the object of those coMplainte removed, if such a thing was predicable. The Simi of C o mmons ought to be moat desirons that the ap. peals of the people should be made to them, in whatever forms those appeals appeared, and-in what. ever terms expressed. Re sits msevittced• it was most desirable thit the appeals of the people, issu. ing through whatever channel, should he directed to that House. He had not the femme •to be in the Heusi last night, to hear the grounds upon which the desire of rejecting the petidoW were co: tablishel The language was Itubminivr,• end if parts of it appeared taricesionable to Gentlemen, why had they not pointed out thlrfeeulier expres sions calculated to itkhult the dignity and honour of the House ? Was it the iatention of these ho complained of .e . violation of the dignity of Parliament, to say, that the people had no right to petition at all, or that their pei. Lions should be under certain humiliating restric tions and condescensions ? An Hon. Gentleman l'Mr. "Jacob) had stated, that any pertain who looked into the Petition must be convinced, that its contents wore intended to insult those to whom it was directed ; that it was impossible they could he perused without leaving such an iiapreselutt. He (Sir S. Remaly) had read the Petition with all the accuracy in his power; and so far from being alfeeted with such a conviction, he had not ob served throughout any one circumstance of an Insulting or disrespectful tendency. The Hoe* eonld nut but be convinced, that his object In delivering those sentiments was to prevent the increase of the ditScolties in which it had been already but too much involved. Nobody could say that his intention was other than • the pre. serration of that Horse hem •difficulties ; from the evil consequences of which, if it was op posed to them, a recovery would be impossi ble. The Weittninster Petition had been rectiv- ell, and the. only difference he saw . between that. and the Petition front the Livery, was, that the Chancellor of the „Eachequer accepted of the sone, and rejected the other. It had sbeen stated, that the Resolutions entered into upon the meetinik held Tie the Petitioners, shotild he taken into con. • sideration. He denied that these acsolinions should undergo any discussion—that they should be at all co sit as connected with, and inse. parable from, the matter of the Petition—they • had not been sent to that House fur any sane. • lion, nor for any animadversion; and by no means looked upon as either adding• lief influence 'ln this Petition, or deriving any hod it. In fact the Uense had no right to couple the Complaint of the Petitioners and their resole. lions u p on the meeting. With respect to 14 resolutions, if they were violent, if they wars couched in terms, signifying their Whitson add the conduct of the House of Commons, hi mind, 'tiered it a very strong instance of forbearance that the resolutions were offensive, and that 061,4010 to that House was net so. He couldsee t inundltri conduct, the desire of the Livery to avoid, as Instill as possible, the true delineatioW of their teens roused, as , they hail been, •to eitasporation. Hen. Gentleman (Mr. Jacob) had 'Weds there was not a majority of the Livery pretest m the meeting, end had distinguished between people and the populace, in a mamma. highly in. suiting to that assembly, and equally so to the understandings of that House toendure each edit tinction. Hefted stated that the detent people were 'prevented from attending the Meeting, en account of the multitude of pick.pockets and '• • &mamba who,aUmUled it Suck assertions as these were ill popular assemblies—as from whom that House had , , • - d" Vie. r., reputation. .It had been dins had set been sat di whit4lM" hall pehyed; %It was saPpeeed that mill being nu probability of the rocepti_ 000 eluded with saying, that the practice timing should be etteettrageti by elketriloular as by it were communicated an Impoftinad and abet 'sett, which the House, if it preserved a due re=; geld fee its dignity and repeeation,' could sewer dispense with% Shereceivincof that PetitionlaW casioned tomileiseettneut of Others. Ile congaed* such s citionatettnew mrestveteeir important:. tat protested iwuroog terms against the language tried' by thetronounible Gentleman who spoke last. Mr. W. WYNNE said, that if the Pinkies.: wu bounded by the idles of propriety, and coached in language not offensive to the dignity or hunotir of this House, he did not see the übliga. lion upon the people to 'frame their. revolution in a manner which was repugnant or hostile. to their feelings; they were nut dbliged to* repress the warm expreption of their sentiments, whether tbeseleekeip, resulted from ~ their disapprobation: at-dliskillitilmt of the House of Commons or noq otsrbetherlhose sentimevitowere Inspired by dis. geaerirritation it 4he .conduct of other bodies ot:Mtpe ; be, however, conceived, that the Peti. 1 destoranut far from being woe calculated to gain the objsct.which it bad professed its wish.. to Mat lain; for, instead. of being expremed in terms! width it was the practice and the duty of peti., I tioners.to Use, it uttered the most palpable abuse, isod levelled against, the House a language most grossly disrespectful.. lie here read the first pert ,of the P.utitioo, and asked whether- there could be auv doubt as to the improper and diseespeelful application of the remark ? .Thel House should use its common sense, and con. Miler whether this Petition 'was from those who *ere seeking a redress of -grievances, or from the* ,who were intent upon insulting' that Mottos, to Which it professed to apply for a re medy-to certain intolerable calamities. He would lot enter into dap question of the privileges of the House superseding the laws. Ile looked upon the Law of Patliament eta portion of the Law of the Land, Om shield by ohich oar ancestors lad guarded the country against tyranny and- usurps deo ;.- kited bout retried witkits dignities audits haitairs by the present generation, and should be handed down to posterity,. Unsullied and emboli. nished. Upon. these grounds, be would vote fur the rijectittio of the Petition. , • Si r J 0 II N DiIVPOH:I- observed,. that Ilte reef., idol of a Petition implied disepprobatioey awl' that, it disappeuLtation of the conduct of. the' Monet Was ,liniett ground of ohjeetioa, they might have , A 4 . hibleeses, bet they never could have Petitions. Were they to force the people to allot, their grievances to fereseut in. their own bosoms, jointed of comieg with a decleration of them to the Howse ? .This was *hat had *produced the calamities on the Con. dealt. , Tbtrprivilege of Mating their grievances, was one which he-hoped the people would never out with ; 'fur, if they did, there was ao end of the Constitution. This Petition came from a re. galar Body legally convened, which en Honour.' able Gentleman, who had been elected to a hi ' oleo in th e City (Jacob) bad character) ted by coupling them with ,11511aSSitil and -pittlia pockets from Saffros.kili end Fleet.latte l--....Kr Were the Livery of Loudon and the litho*. tants of Westminster to be debarred from pre:. seating Petitions, beltaulle they. happeued to here such places as Saffron,hill mod Fleet-land in their neighbourhood / As to his assertion, that there Were no . Petitions (rote other Counties, • there might be such Petitions in good time ; but at any rate were they to refuse to heir a part of the pee. pie. till the whole came forward ? Sir J. neat ad. veiled to the Counter Declaration, which he con. tended was irregtilar. Now were Counties to be assembled if this practice was_ to become general. —lnstead of going about from house to house for signatures, all who• could ought ,to hate .attended the meeting. It was their duty to Aare' dinie so. But then the Honourable Gen. 'demean said., that the King's Bench was sitting at .Guildhall, and that a great number gut in under the pretence of going to that Court. Vas that always thecase ?• Were these meetings never to be considered as of any great consequence, escept whets they approved of the conduct of Ministers ? A greet deal we said. about taking the reuse of the .peetile le Uppeiiiititi to that of the House of Corn. mons, when the :cry of 46 No Popery"..aeto set up, (Hear ! hear!) They had already found that turn against themselves, and. they were not ; . the first whoereeted engines from which they them. selves antlered. It would be a fatal do for . tile: Constitution of the country, teetets the people should be prevented trues egpaqopipt,theie UO-, aiwis. • . 40,9 m it.... , . i.. Mr. PE ELE asked whetheatilo.44 spit- et) the Petition thought dierig *ate litlys fermi, suf. .ficiently harsh to justify the rijoetiuu era petition?. If not, then he asserted that it was perfectly Toe less to nut the question ) whether. any Petition . should be received. Ile asked whether the House might not claim the humble privilege of an d indivi. dual,.to repel insult ? It it had uut this privi. lege, it was necessary that Members should know' it, that they might think the Petitioners for their forbearance. Thu worst way to prevent insults was to acquiesce in them ; and he did net think it very squeamish' in them tetake offence at a charge, of aturder, mad an assertion, that their conduct totaled to establish a military despotism. If they were to "tat that paper on the table, they might -peepers to eapect insult—it knuckod at, the dour ite this humble character of a petition . ; but when it Ivo in it would thew its real . trature. He thought it was not too much to empire that petitions thould at least hair the negative merit of decency. It Wu said that the construction of the House did not - entitle it to nay thing better ; but those who looked* a parer House of Commons ought nut to admit • preetsdent that might be , applicti to any future lionise. [Mar" hear!) .Atisotkr o othe.e oh. jectiutts to the petition, one - was ) that it (trended . VI! w.!q"'`• , mytion that an illegal act thefime when, according , the question was pebdiog. rejection of this irkp ..eapressing his re _ differ. f 6 *IOW (deeds rol never a t oseettoo-sisice his poli tatter, ibts The oasis could .usisteit to the-Afters of OW 'A i fig ts 'i x i, 14 - - i llkil•groat measttre stand on its i Olin me' • e allosied titat the temper of the ' . onseoughtle be rather' td .eartind than to Ober !tract the itenUtulor Petittotse; hat they ought to turd against the wantothebese of the right. lie ;knew no *ay more .likely to 'Stefano the right, if he might be ' allowed the expression, than to allow a wanton attack ;On thu priti. • lege* of the House, which were, these of tat* .people.—..--fiv would not rrjett' a Petitintik, • though the prayer was spinet- his own opinion.. Illif be , must attend to times and circumstances. ' , 11 that I ;had been an insalatet'Petition, he Would not 14011 'been Much dis Posed to reject it, thougiike did not. altogether approve of it. Hot this . was the third' improper Petition, or rather the second,' cue at them having been received. ,This was at low the i second altruist which had pfticp uffered. Bit it had belie said, that the ;444 ageiniethe Howie woes', not direct assertions, but steted`ha, . tis. How would thii have anaticked lo prlifidi •, 1. gecpolle I any one said teeny, Gentleinau l sin f fur in. stance, that he *nee common cheat; 'Leeward, -or an incendiary, thee he would he entitled to repel the insult; . heti( it was statue as nay the opinion of the person aoeusing hriii,.litert it - was to pass without notice! There was .14 , trail) nothing its the distinction. He would ask any one to read that Petition, and then to say whether Iteprimary object was not to affrout the fosse [Hear, hear i] The prayer was only a secondary object. Who. ever read thirspeeches delivered at 'these meetings, could hardly fail of being convinced that* there was a systemalleiphin for keeping Op Alikk'll*lnf i ko *the minds of the people, to the subversion offtekei Rights and Pried id the If tetse.4 'llliate um*. 1 41 should recelvetMs ! ileit t it wituldtipt . be kia . iA)C„il' , to a desiro of co idols, but to:illsebt anti fear. , lie thee adverted' W is. sleack of in Heston rabic Friend of Me "(probably Mr. AVldttiread), which he described as awed.° to the Petition. ' !flits un derstood that Wails 'iltstended , to .be sit, ho'hOped that few would agree -with his lillonotaahie Friend itriipiniOn. Mc itiostatted with him as' to' the lin. propriety efoetie , :ttote on this WaielierekEx petit tioa. •No doubtesajoritieedt'diat fletislesight be wrong. •He moist sioppokeso; 7 air) thegreuterpart of Ms woks had heels given 'in tronittority. ' But they were not to judge of the IlOuselroten retell., ciitar act. s Thby-weret - td take the • agigkarrtal of advantage and disadvantage. [hear! ilea!'!] • ... Mr. -WHITOR HA ill denied•that he hatexpres., tied any aplaiiin open the merits of the Petition, as his flunoti refit° Priem( had asserted. Mr.. &LIAO it eat Oki ti beer theAssisviraL • Mr. WA.ltin.l.l, as a Member of the Livery of London; as well as a Mcurber of that Douse, felt I himself bound to, makesume obetivetioris upon thli I question. Ai a Member of the Livery, he dared Ati say that the whole tit ihallietty felt as indiffer ent as he 'did to the reflettions. tireosen but in the ' course of this - debate, and particilarly to the opt-, nisi') of an Honeurabte Gentleman• on the oft& side, eke had indulged so mine'' In such reflec tions. That Honotsrabluetleatletnan had thought proper to describe the !Common Hill as a tumor., L t uous turbulent assemblyibtit such could not the opinion of that Body .by OS Lord Chief Jai. tice.of England; for thatlioble Lord -esperietsdid no laterruptlon whatever,- althingh cloud** his judicial functions immediately adjoining thb Hall ; suet when hb eietired • ;the flail it self, on his easy from the Geoid of `King's Bench, far from witnessing as conduct' that would justify the character ascribed .to ' the 'Meeting by the liont.urablo Gentleman; Itis 'Lordship was' treated in passing with the utmost defertmce. Upon the debate with respect to the Mkldlesex 'Petition, _he expressed the same °pinks . , Which ho entertailpted , on this occasion. He declared, that in neither case did there appear to exist tho allthtest digital dun to give offence. On tile! Contrary, he be. liered it was the anxious- wish . lit , tlie Petitioners not to d 6 so. For hicpart, he mild not, 'het candidly examining the whole of the , Petition as.: der debate, find soy inktlmissibld Matter net: X. 4.4 sive expression.. As to tho number of agnatstree4 this paucity was netosiouidy acciraiiitto the es-I tablished custom of the Livery; whore k few sag for the whole. But if, eceortheg'tet the duct , of some GestleMen, the whole et those' who a proved of sky Petitio. shouldialiscribe to it,, : a doctrine night to be mede public end unio prescribed-..fur otheswise,the contrary, which.* generally the present ;averse,- 'night tenderises Petitions questionable,• it to the sentinittili' Of .the Body from whim they professed to come. 'The Right ileauurablOCientlensan (Mr: Pereevel)r r ind alleged that this Veldt)* contained 'clothier, .but insult, and that pm:mutilated too ; but he (Mr. IV .) really could not cenreive that any gr een' body like the Livery of London could meditate. any such thing4-aeaddi if he might so ettpress himself, condescend = to. Offer ass insult--[ Hear, hear! on the Ministerial bandies] —yes,' he wonk repeat, condescend, mid even degrade itself. Flitl .l in his judgment, the party that offered en lush everi degraded itself seem than the party that re anted it. Was it tole supposed,' that if the par. ty frees whom HAI Petition caulks meant I to insult the Haase, that that. party could not have more', effectually contrived , to,eonvey that insult through the medium of Resolutions. If it . were said that such raistlntiona . might' be ;prosecuted for libel, he would ask, wholkee:tiut Liscry . of Lon. dun had not as meet 'Sight SCV %011ie.= their opiniosi . spun (public *traits as that • House could predand to, and srhetkee.thaappedbeneiou of 1 such a prosecution was likely te Aim any cause of restraint.if the Livery wetedisperdedfreely Wiwi. madvert upon the tendon, otaeseese Gentlemen'. would impress it, to *Well the dipeitys of- that - - ifouse? .W by then should it be aeppeold, tiset if • the Livery meant to hiatsit theralsomieblitiaa VP 'a mode so Hite suited to the completogratitentlon of • . tr. __. • , A.-, • . 0.0.....6.... ..Z 301014 4 11 1:: itt . i ose hr ree tigL aiii. eli- u l b; upon the dillait--: , • iii;Priiir upon the anti re a direct attack lIIIISF hasi brio committed, at I *ambito bY aPPeilft 10,their own view of it, 1 derived au important ,lie would vote for the iv said, that other Peti- hlNEl4lol,,.after I *At t1011•0e0 , - VtOlii *lll O ditto it te couceivio4l ant II o * e ; 2l "r re g *jolted, th eta nikee4 . ot ..of lion of any other'. Ile hi he t dOubl it the practice of pill- so Seed Me .with realm I 1 • % / • t d ra e i c n ia ts r : right t r t es o . ----ag that purpose as a petition . to that Hous e i ts which necessarily- elf, s u u n b l j u v e c s t t ed ion t a lte bl n e ,their sentiments upon every public questio n ; and Thepeopiehtda m !till should they be contained ? His op i n i on of their rights he always bad and always would main. elin, both in and out of that House ; but in main. staining that or ally other opinion, he had no in. tentioo to convey an insult. Among the pas. -ages in this petition deemed must offensive, that which asked the House, where was its dipj ty and honour ? was, lie Observed, most l'irticoLirly dtik6ctani-4341t r .be watild-ask. those who pressed the objection, w here was the dignity, or t h e he. 'flour, or justice of the Mouse, when it refused to investigete the eliatge brought forward by'jiis Hotteuroble • Friend (Mr. ittsiltseks) against two M e mbers of that House (Lord Castlereagh and /dr , fi e f ceon i) relative to the sale Of scats, vilely it pretreated his lion. Friend from proving th e fact—when, in a word, 'it aequi - the deli, ...., •. ~„, _ AWL Ain. quenb, because, forsooth, the delinquency w as frequeut-beeause the accused bad dune molting more than had been duno before ?—ln' adverting 10 thii circumstance, he begged ti, say that tho charge, which it produced against that House, did not apply more to the noble Lord (Castlereagh) and those about him, than to the gentleman on ' slid opposite side wbo defended him. Hi, lange ig , on.this subject might be .misinterpreted ; h m ehi, could not, hesitate to say, that by the conduct of both parties on the occasion referred to, it was ca. Isually discovered, ,indeed distinctly avowed, that the purchase of seats in that House had likvii the continual practice Of all Adininistralions. M A thei could the Livery of litandois be coudemned far asking• that House, where was its dignity, '• where .was its justice, after overlooking such as k s. . . . ;covery, and giving impunity to those who con. klisee a gross . aiolatiriss of its best. privil eges ! --A. Right. Hun .CLelltiOinan (Mr:: 'rerceial) had distiuctlystated in that Ituuse,. that Were win nu qtteation open which bith des were s o ewe . .-plasteksi-agreed as in a decided oppositiou to !rattarastan 4wh,`abould. ho be surprised to and -htt . titikel . words:the language of the public? Y e t he ewe aenounceilthe repetition of his own I. guige, htv'estgitMety offensive. The Petitioners wore l lt;lPPettred, rather unlucky in repeating the Gentleman's words. hut, in truth, from what the li,ightaononrable Gentleman and others had 'paint...loud in the course of this and recent discussion, it seemed impossible fur the people to present any statement of their grkvames to that House, unless the precise aortas in which lilitt e ,stAtemept should he drawn up,- were dis. 'tined" pointed edits+ Unless such a course ilk; deed • were chalked •osit i .it was not possible to guard_ any petition ugaioot the cavilling 2 hypoeri. epirit, which was ; ner r ee . , prevaleut, ;ad which, ,there was too tnuch resters to feisr„ pro. C 00614.400 x dt'siru lir Stith she voice o f .the p egs ph. He would be softy that such a desire sliould .any quarter, and particularly in that I llousev from which the_ people had a right to expect very different conduct., That. the people • had any intention to; kisn't that Ileum, he din. *Wetly denied. If they teeny, „note; to hesitatebb did 'not think that they *mid isetitiee 'as alt s '•.But he firmly helievedlhat the,peopte'bnilf4 ed to that Howie as Unit, moot esseuttal 'upper& It wad not indeed to that liOute that the people ever übjectea t but alit ~celrlttti4ei, and IskeX„ of which Otte teeg l iseturiousli tw audit: asawan to complain. Anele Was Ibis ebi4 opinion ; -and If be thought ellgrititieo he would have penned a ditfecene line of oonduct. He lolly believed taint the Petitioners in this case had ' other Object than to complain of what they *mi. ed an abuse. If 'he eohlst tbnetitte that:llor hi t : tendon was 4e..iesslt--the amuse, tea dealmed.tial he should hart no bositatide in vesting foe tleqlk jection of their Petititon; *Obis conception' decidedly, oppositei be migtikente, fsif its ft:elitism. Mr. J'KCOB (livelihood - the intention imputed to him by the last speilkit, of refieCting gl u m the Livery of Londisii; the' majority of - .*hoof he be. lieved to be a very honest, iiilustrious, weli-con. ducted, and of course toys! .11sniy..10riainirks were applied to the Meeting at the,Conintess.liall, -the greater part of which 'had roseo**)i, with. the Livery, but who attended aseraly,f&bußbulent purposes. • t.'e rse;ll' . . Mr..WIVIERFOIWE eitireaetit Wifihtistaro .• liotitlo4 this debate tsi,oa lays ,qaeotio. mut Itese adjourned, because it gave to, the Ilouse suite tune for consideration, and becaiiieit affutded Id • himself an opporinnity of .ciiiriling:serne doubts • which he last night entertained... TfiViesoli of ;'that examination was the etstirtf. siffiipVilf,o4Fe doubts'; Aoki be was na.W j ritoily o de hp • his, 4'4:titian to vote against tlexcetteptissoof lieis titian: That House might welbbe*egilidedesthe fa cu,s through which all the gsiott aikiall-hionoursof the country transpired,`andlwwasgttreeeely sorr y to witness* disposition, whPelt ,0011 Pirticalarly ea r. ing of late, to bring that Ifinitle . (to use A phraseof law) into Mitred and contempt. 'The Pe tition under discussion too paypahly, betrayed that dispo sition. It dealt; 'to be sure, in.seme common place term, of civility, but only ,with a view to cover what was substantially au ipsuit/ :The P c : titiohOrs, in deed, after reciting certain 'acts MiliC 4 Are - the sisbjeats of . their cettoute, expressly stated that such acts were nothing• more than was to be expectedlrom the constructiox of that Busse, Fromsnah a Petiiiun, its fact, tbey couW not ex pect arty-good, while they'most mean to do evil 14) thet_Honse. Its maintaining that that !louse did nut consist of the Representativesef the people, the authors of this petition might,' pampa, ProP°sC next to maintain as it coruilisly that . that Hume had no right to pass laws. It was impossible, deed, to calculate how far such persons Wight 15 sauce, if they were slot wiihstuud „that House slid not maintain its proper. ,respect in. this ems by rejecting the petition. From ike . ione of tins pet'' „titan it clearly appeartil,that its authors would de. grade the character 4 a t e utige. There were ie. daild tee Many who co-operated with such pains , to *scribe the conduct of all parties in that House to grass corruption—to hold them forth asubjetto the country!. scorn ; and this could not be wonder. et) it; from the nature of the; lang,itar whisk'' too often used within these walls. Grillo's), , ' G UI bto Tn tP dill the re.l