The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-02-05 00:00:00

1 1 C tii ; • . . ..... il ‘ i ) : 1 1: ' ti i ' . • • i .;. k' I • • , • • . • p• I . . <s ~'. night by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Pole), had gilded lam that the conduct of the Iriih Government had been Vemarkably temperate . and forbeetring. That oldie Catholics, on the con trary, seemed to him to have been very reprehensi ble. They had assumed a high tone, and a menacing - posture, wry itt befitting them, and hail organised a system which, In his opinion, was replete with dan ger to the-community. Mr. C. WYNNE could not conceive how it was possible that any mad who agreed in the. main fact, that the state otlielsind was such _as to. requite lie consideration of Paitiament, could resist the rharon of his Noble Friend, to whatever cause he might ihhi= . piste the evistencu of that state. He entered into de tail of the proceedings of the Irish Government,whicti in his opinion, were - highly culpable, and particularly condemned as insulting the use of the word 64 con descension" in the communication frotn the Lord Lieutenant to Lord Fingall. Adverting to the con viction. of Mr. Kirwan, he observed' that he would not arraign the conduct of the Judges, bat it was possible that the case might be differently derided by that higher tribunal, before which, he believed, and hoped to God it would be brought. The construc tion of the Convention Act was most forced. 'lt might be applied with equal justice to everyone whq - Leah' him, and who had been appiainted as a Deleal gate, to consider the propriety of making a road or a canal. The sentiments of the people of this coun try were very. much clia,nged oil the subject. He tip., pealed to all weed mixed in society, irhetheilt wale not the general opinion that attention ought to be" paid to the dem% of the Catholic', under certain 0..' curlews,. the nature of which - would be the 'proper subject of eonalderition in the Committee ) far which he should feel it his bontidefedutylo vote. Mr. MANISTiaIS SOTTOPV, fit it 'very eloquent and argumeiiiative speech,. opposed the motion, as far from cilculatiii to tranquitlike the eaistieg imi tation in Ireland. He strongly_ reprobated the 11-. aeration made last night by a Learned Gentleman (Sir A. Pigott), that it was some consolation, under the afflicting circumstances in which his Majesty was placed, that at least a bar had been removed to the consideration of the interests of Ireland; thereby clearly implying, that the interests of Ireland had not been attended to by his Majesty, than which, ir more unfounded statement could not Well have been made, as must be manifest to all who recollected how many privileges had been granted to the Cathie tics of that country during the present reign. In re fusing to accede, at the present momenti to the claims of the Catholics, he distinctly disclaimed (what had been ascribed to other Honourable Gen tlemen, who were of his opinion) imputing to them that they were traitors to their king and enemies to their country. Nor did he impute to the Catholics (as their advocates had so Injudiciously done) that they were disposed to wrest that by force which they could not obtain by persuasion. He stated the ques tisn to be, in his opinion, one of expediency rather than of right—of justice to the Catholics on the one side, and of security to the establishments' of Church and State on the other. He (mold not agree to grant the Catholics their full claims without any security, acid without giving any pledge on the subject, he would just remark that no security had been yet pointed out as the proper one. It was perhaps ima gined that some provision of that nature might be elicited by the collision of opinions in the Commit tee ; but as he conceived such a proceeding was cal culated to agitate rather than to tranquillize, he must oppose it. He must also oppose the motion for a Committee, as fhat motion was connected with a view of the conduct of the Government in Ireland; for he believed that a Government more moderate, and (with some peculiar exceptions) more generally, acceptable, had never existml in that cosintry. lie dho feuded the conduct or a Noble and near relation of kis (Chancellor Manners), which had been so unjnst ly attacked. Without presuming to possess as much le gal knowledge as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had last night spoken, he declared himself sa tisfied with the unanimous opinion of the Judges of -the Court of King's Bench in Ireland on the con etruction of the Convention Act. If the country was not content with that opinion,_ he hoped to God, with the Honourable and Learned Gentleman who had just spoken, that the case would come to the dernier resort of adjudication. There was but one other question to consider, that of time. He could hardly conceive a worse time for a concession such as that proposed than the present. Of this the state of [relies:it was safticient evidence. The feutings of the Catholics themselves, manifested' in the post ponement of their petition to Parliament, was an ad ditional proof of the fact. To their authority he bowed, and he would say, in concurrence with them, that the prefent time was most unfit. Mr. PARNELL supported the motion at much length. He could not suppose that the condition of the Catholics was very much attended to in that House; haring' seen, as lie had, that every motion; the object of which was to ameliorate their condition, was not attended to. It had been the intention of the Catholics that their Petition should be before the Mouse at the pretent moment ; and why was it not there ?—because the GovernMent had thought fit to disperse the Committee assembled for the purpose of preparing it. before the objects of the Catholics had • been complied with; that was the reason of there being no Petition before them: The Hon. Gentle man then contended, that the Catholic Committees were legal assemblies ; and observed, that he had sel dom heard such extravagant and preposterous ob perrations as were contained in the speech of the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Yo!c),.so little ttorne out by facts. The Petition that weelbont to be prepay.. ed for the Legialature, was alt one to Attain the de sired object ; and the Catholics tad acted is no way Illegtilly in the line of, conduct which they had pur sued with a view to prepare it. The Catholics had been accused of a wilful violation of the taw, but such he maintained had not been the case ; at:yi he thought that the Irish Attorney-General was not justified in stating in the Court of King's Bench, that the designs of the Catholic/ were treasonable, rebellious, and revolutionary -that the Catholic Committee was a species of. the " Council of Five Hundred"—that it formed the three estates of the realm—that it was ",a National Convention !" • What gronnd had be for making such charges ? The • promulgation of such fulminteions could not tend to conciliate the Catholics of Ireland. He approved'of . . • . , •~ , ._. • • - t` . that it was State of Ireland. tbileentnioti°thna' th til in e kng House to enquire by Lord GASTLEELEAGII rose and highly eulo ;Pod %heilfasper Old ufndela ties show% in lb *perch, ,sy the NtsblaLottl Who introduced the motion for a- Conymichie en the Stitt of Ireland. ; But though he Mired - thn gedital tenor of his argunients-, and in it odded acquieseed.ia the aantimeetts-eipresied, yet he held the measnre,proposed as onelalculajted more to perplex than'to bee Ot.the' geb)eral - qiieibreaf ll felt hirose4howeverauily prepared to assert, that , CiThltiitio'h thtstr brti Millen hribit, tOss' 2. 4o to sigsiele • the' future oeglietel god Without - the fel lilmetrt Of'whiet alt the ediantikeikat tht'lata Elitirois With the' PLliir dome would not be reaped.--Viedittilitres t- hlreqw.' , I 'fitis; hatriver, he dientedndif to *WI' the:fit' tithe' ikie.! pressing such a desitaßle'srieastire, and' e* l Misiion • of that,- hawould'proceed to state' hissoSte' feelings and - opinions on the subject, under HIP etu "uitittgappearauee. For his own part, though he felt the importance and, under peculiar circinnstance, the utility of the Measure, be had never felt it his duty to press it open the consideration of that House.-- Ills opinions at along, which the Noble Lord seemed not to participate 'with - him, were, that such a mea sere, when unseasonably proposed, tended to injure wnd impede its succeisthrtrusiteu l t the country. No- thing appeared %efts apt to Mislead and deceive the ! public mind than those menaced annual petitions,. ape the discussions which would necessarily follow avow their being. presented to Parliament. Let Gentlemen, if they would continue their applications on that subject, . prepare a properly arranged plod of what.their ai ms xtere i and-not to leave it mode a ned,and only to 6e gq.hered• froth the loose sue gestic:is in their siiceches. If they shOulddo 'so, he felt assured that Parliament would speedily discuss their, plan upon its pwrits. But the Catholic claims ---- • id - ' in tar' iitthiiatellhilotwitethdheasdluacwi recently did not toed &woken , t meetin b g ee s n t e o m pas ou s e a d : he , would ask, those Honourable Gentlemen for twat purpose was the Convention Act framed ? If they did not.mean to attach mert meeting for the ,pqrposes of representation, whom would tl)ty wish to enact' ? And did the Gentlemen also say, , that Owle!**Psei weeki• • hew beeteAsiiss seated--amidst cor4mitteei.and meetings of the Above description ? Tidi4th lie' firally=,beavieal tht.'peolple of Ireland wore not at all infected with that accursed doctrine 'Whl,Ch 44 "their shores from • • athelsbed Frau& '' atldtilaft while'•tkj, content plated"fhe'prepa4ation' of . a petition to Neliament,' they alloyed not -theli• tilted to be carried aside by aq•other consideistion,4et he contemplated them arpelloiki who , had delegated men to sit in the nietrqiitis bf Ireland in a manner to influence Government to accept more rapidly of their claims ; sitting, too, irt - the face of the Empire, to make their repulsive conduct more inauspicious to their cause'; bringing themselves into legal diffi culties with the laws of their country ; but even all that hindered him not from asserting the general goodness of the cause. It was hurtful to the law to prosecute such a man as Lord Fingall, whose vir tuoutvand eicellent character had lived through.bad tithes; slid even a Jury would hesitate, and give a decision with reluctance against him.—[llear, heart. -The Government_ of his Grace of Rich mond had been highly praised by the Catholics them selves for moderation ; and had they kept within the limits of their native counties, the; might have con.. tinuod to frame petitions unmolested, and even fur thered by the Government. No man who ever dis passionately examined Into the Catholic restrictions could contain himself from asserting them to be high ly painful and irritatluk to the feelings of the persons 'against whom theY were framed ; but he foresaw a timr •hr he ' t ~ stF 'f Catholics and • arraigned others, and was extremely displeased at the mode in which the speakers succeeded each rebe l , who, he thought should have been marshalled in a diterent fashion. But really the [louse and the coun try had to complain, that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr; Ryder) had not proposed Rely plan relative to the Catholics ; but, perhaps, he might have been so much engaged with the police and the nightly watch, that he could not spare time for the purpose.—[A laugh.]—With reference to the order of the speakers, he saw no reason that the Itielit honourable Secretary (Mr. Pole) had to complain; file the Noble Lord had begun the debate, then luceeeded to confute him the Learned Civilian (Sir J. Nicholl), then the Right Hon. Privy Councillor, then the Learned Lawyer on that side, and so on in very fair and regular alternation, until they concluded with the Noble Lord, who combined his speeek all those various character,. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J.'Nicholl) had offered in his speech this undeniable inference, that the whole pe. nal code sheeld'be continued to tranquillize Ireland; yet. in his explanation, he disclaimed any intention of saying that the door should be shut for ever against concession ; and the Noble Lord had further explained for him, that he meant nothing more than shutting the door against indefinite measures. But among the objections urged against the measure, none was more gener ally agreed in than th a t th e ti me for discussion was n ot yet come—all said so, and all gave different reasons—all were emancipators, but yet none would go into the Committee : all, even to the Right Honourable Gentleman on the lower bench, had reasons, which neverseuld be removed; so that the Catholic Question seemed to be in the same state as' the Slave Trade once had been, which all were desirous to pass—all were abiilt tionists, but yet not* would abolish it.—[erics of hear, hear !] The Honourable Geutleman then adverted to the speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman who had sr last • ,ht (M' C9' had never . bien laid Wore Parliament in .aeir na tonid tetra.. Partial statements had been given, but no total and comprehensive plan had ever been sub slitter& :• God forbid that ever the Catholics should press their cause beyond the proper bounds which petitioning subjects were required to keep ; and what. ever the ultimate issue of their claims might be, they should prepare their minds for quietness and submission. An lion. Gentleman had enabled hinri to gather as much from his speech, as, that in the suing Session a motion,, comprehending the whole of the Catholic Claims,• world be laid befbre Par liament. He agreed with that measure, inasmuch only as it gave the Government a general view of the subject, and pointed ow to them what measures were most necessary to be followed. Three classes of opinions stood relieved from the general mass of argument employed on the present. occasion. The advocates for the first class contended that Govern ment should agree to the Catholic claims purely as a question of right. Ve nexti .of winch ,he confessed himself to be a diselpie,- proposed to make conces sions so far as was proper, consistently with the general safety of Church and State ; and lastlyap peered the class of those wao, without Orly combined views on the subject, wished it all to , be• left fora Committoe to decide upon. Of 'the Gentlemen who contended . on the imperative right I of. conceding the Catholic claims, he was sorry *to sky that they had she*ein ito inclination to carry such a point' of claim to a legal issue ; but they had determined to carry it to the Representative Tribunal, where the Qiithc4ics'mitht well know they could never force 'a claim not considered neces sary against a Protestant body. Of that they might have been fully tware, and should have refrained from urging the prevent measure. But the Catho lic Body appeared never to have been consulted on the present measure, no rational plan had been arranged, but he had understood Gentlemen to mean, front their speeches, that no regulation of the Catholics, as a religious body, was at all in contemplation; but, in his mind, any pslitical con cession would he unsafe without it.---When the Ron. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) brought forward his motion is the preceding Session, he remembered him,to have said, that without an arrangement in religious matters, the grant of the claims would be 'useless. He understood the 'lrish Catholics had maintained that no alteration, could be made with out the consent of the Pope, a4d that they refused to accept into their own hands the rights of ' his Holiness, or to take them s even from his own hands when he was under captivity; is they would suppose him consenting from constraint. With such difficulties surrounding the question, he thought it would be impossible to discuss it. He wished to contemplate the Romiilt" Church cemented with the Protestant, '"an union 'which we had witnessed' in other countries prodUctite of most happy and triumphant consequences • a measure fraught with such general' good, he Voped might be adopted in preference to the' ideas thrown out in argument by the Hon. Gentleman, of giving political freedom, and allowing theb 'religion to enjoy all its foreign dependencies along' with the benevolent enfranchise inent bestowed at *lame. The"StateSman, he con.' fessed, would require to be a' bold one who could prdpose such a measure as allowing a legalized body of Catholics to live in the kingdom; when Government found it expedient to make concessions to the laity, the whole would prove ineffectual un-' lesi they capitulated with the Clergy, who held these men's minds in obedience. Even to .that he did not look forward with strong hope; the present mo ment was most decidedly inauspicious : nor did he eve' think that the Catholic mend had re ceived sufficient ?reparation for accepting of the measure. He perceived an insuperable diffieulty to be surmounted in the public Protestant opinion, and the Legislative Restrictions of the country .. . — When high in office formerly with Mr. Pitt, he (Lord Castlereagh) stood b e t w e en th e Catholici in their determination of petitiouing his • Majesty', • e 'well knowing the Monarch scold return tire, though he perceived ntithing in the Coithia•;' tion Oath to prevent his Majesty from on the measure—Ulcer, heur!)—prbviding it Wid not been apparently hazardiil the subversion 'of the rights of the nation to consent to it. For 'his* own part, he was anxious always to _pet benevolent constructions on the sayings and proceedings men, but' he could not.refrain from tare " ' l / 4 7 illtoughr' ~ne coming when the interests of Protestants would'be united' and mutual, and- the Legislature, presidiagroter the whole teaks, would hold the scales of justice in equal balance *twain them. ' b r . Mr. WHITBREAD (having caught the Speaker's eye) proceeded to' say, that he felt extremely sorry to interfere With the intentions of any of his Hon. Priends„ but, protracted as the debate had been, he felt anxious to give his voice in favour of the motion, wh k h had foi ila object the relief of -so large a' !witted of tbe' inhabitants of Ireland, la considerable as, he was with respect to that country, except as a Member of the United Parliament. Tbb question had been so involved during this discus sion, that it became difficult to understand it, and to do the Nob!! fiord (Castlereagh) justice, he had contributed his full- share to that unintelligi bility.—[A therefore felt anxious to recal the proposition of the Noble Mover, with whom he perfectly agreed in his motion for, a Com mittee ; and agreeing also with the Noble 1, Ord in many of his propositions (as well as he could understand them), but disagreeing with him in thinking that the present discussion was injurious to thg 'Catholic Cause, which, in his opinion, owed "life and light" to discussion, and to discus sion only, by *hid he hoped that it would gain its Oast and completest tridmph, ho could not concur With him in the conclusion he drew, after balancing this difficulty and that danger, now this way and now that way, that a balance of security was wanting for the Church and State; and that he finally proposed for the Catholics a situation in that House • when he had thus guarded, and fenced, and secured the consti tution. The Noble Lord had accused the Noble Mover with the indefinite nature of his proposition, but if there was any man to whom they should apply to take the question out of this indefinite and uedefinable state, it should be the Noble Lord himself. He had , introduced. the Coronation Oath, and s t aid, that knotring the conSientious scruples which existed ut a high quartet, though he- did not concern himself in those scruples, he had stood betieett the Throne and the Catholict! But what did be do ?. Why, he shrunk from the Croifirn—'-aid whj? Because lie Could not carry thiCitholic Claims. Not becituse the Parliament objected=not because the People objected, but be.' cause the King in person objeCted, he and his Col leagties took the true constitutional line of condoet, and resigned their offices, and his Majesty appointed others who were willing to take the responsibility on them. ThUNohle Lord bad said, that there was no specific promise held out t 4. the Catholics at the! I Union ; but - there was an understanding that their efainis would be urged:byldr.Titt, by the Noble Se.i cretary for Iretand, by the 'connections of Marquis. Cornwallis, and that it was impossible they should, not succeed. Would the Noble .Lord, say, that with all the wealth', With ail the honours, with all. the power that 'had been put in motion, that the Union cettld have ,been. effected without . this . promise? He knew well, that " with all ap-. pliances and means to boat," that meastue 'Could not hare been effected without an under . standing tin rhe 'Piet Orflie Catholics, That their claims would be conceded. It was too late for the Noble Lord to talk of difficulties—it was too late for him to urge so many thing On one side, and so many on the other; bow to sccare .and to conciliate, and regulate, with regard to this, that, and,the Other ; for if he had not all those matters previously ar ranged in his mind, it was impossible he could have „proposed what gave reason to the Catholics to ex= ,pest that their claims would be granted. But how ' was the question of those difficulties to be decided ? There were only two means—by the Pretestants or by the OithOliCS buk the latter had no power—they had no constitutional mode of meeting to determine — their meetings might be pronounced legal by one Jury, and illegal by the next.—(lfear . 1 hear !) The Noble 'Lord had said, that he Understood the , r:r„et‘ a would not be granted; it might be so ; but he *slid ask him if, at the Union, the Veto might ' not have been obtained ; and Whether it was not owing to the delays and difficulties which had been created, that it was not.? He would fairly ask him, 7whatber he and his colleagues had not been mainly Necessary to the continuance of those restrictions, rich,, Clod forbid! 'should be increased ? ' The ht Hon. Secretary foe Ireland -..t1 to 'think, - -it Of the Noble lard hiMself, and teman wuu ..__ :poken . Ist night (Mr. Can ning), one passage of which savoured strongly of that administration which had introduced the Throne as a bar to the rights of the.peopie—it contained that sort of jogging to the country, to rouse them to be alive again, and to be ready to join in every cry of " No Popery," that he could not give R his applause. Of other parts . 8f the brilliant elusion which he had uttered,' he could not speak toohighly., " Oh, profound, of ignorance of human nature.!'' said that Right Honourable Gentleman last night, when he spoke of the disabilities under which the Catholics laboured ;-and to this he could add nothing to enforce it ; but was there not an exhilarating ex ample presented last night to the House, when a gal.. lant soldier (Gen. Cole), a native of a Sister Kingdom, had received the hishest honour that mortal man could receive—the thanks of a free people 1 and when his 1 posterity saw recorded on the Journals of that House i this proud testimony, they might rejoice in kilt !so descended ; as might the successor of the Chair of that house, when he also saw the record of the manner in which those thauks had been conveyed. j But to reverse the picture. Was a Catholic No ' bleman present, and witnessing this proud and ho nourable testimony of a nation's gratitude, might he not have reason to exclaim, with the Right 80-1 1 nourable Gentleman,. " Oh, profound ignorance lof human nature!" and, returning in indignation, would not his feelings prompt him, in bitterness of heart, to say—" My suns may be Ensigns—they may tread the paths of glory, and deserve the honours of General Cole ; but reap th e m , alas ! they ,never can."—[Rear, hear!]—Nor was this a new ! l anguage—those feelings were natural, and 1 - the consequence of their operation bad been, that ! la a Foreign Service .they were forced to seek that reputation which they were denied at home. To this cause was it owing, that a Lacy, a Sheldon, ! and an O'Farrel had distinguished• themselves oa a foreign soil—to this cause was it owing; that on 1 the fields of Blenheim, Malplaquet, and Fontenov, Irishmen were brigaded against you.—[Hear, I !tear, hear!] He had gone along with the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) is ' admiration—he thought his arg.nients so co:1- vineing as to be almost irresistible, mid though an Honourable Gentleman. had given that - speech in epithet in which he could not concur (for he j tho ught 'it Was not " sails tioquen fur, sa t ientie 1 gab um," but " nulls eloquentite, supieutiw salts")-- ] Yet he felt no surprise at the want of conviction in ''that Hoit. Uentlemait, for the Right Holt. Speaker 'could . not convince himself. [A laugh.] When he heard the Right Hon. Gentleman, be almost forgot who was speaking ; for though he had always admired the force of his talents, yet he appeared last night emancipated from patty, divested of the trammels of office, no longer restricted, but wiih hiv • plumage all bright and resplendent.—Yet what had been the result ? He had convinced every one, but could not obtain his own rote ! "{Hoer, hear!] —As he listened to' his eloquent periods, he could not help asking himself—ls this the man who opened the trenches at Maynooth ?—lir this the man who concurred with him, that thought the concessions made to Catholic Officers in Ireland should not extend to England ?—ls this the man who thought that a Catholic Bank Director should not be toler ated ? is this the man who concurred in recommend ing the prototype of the Right Hon. Civilian as a Counsellor to the King ? Alas ! such is Oa incon sisteucy of human nature ? The Right Hon. Cen• tleman was the same man !—[Hear, hear, hear!]- This was he who would now concede the Catholic Claims, provided the public mind was tranquil, and that animosity was removed. But,..iri 1807, the whole country was tranquil, when the Member for Northampton roused the dame of discord, and cu rled the cry of ."- No Popery" through the country, and he who now proposed concession to the Catho lics, went with him on his way. Such, again, was the inconsistency of human nature ! He then ad verted to the given by an Hon. Member for a repeal of the Union, and ridiculed the idea that it would be a bar to the Catholic claims. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said they could net he discussed, while that notice was pending, end yet talked of the. Union as' a -measure that AO :nun ' could be found to vote for the repeal of. — But if the claims of the Roman Catholics were mot taken into consideration,' It was isot solely a disso lution of legislation which was to. be apprehend _ - ' - -t a dissolution 'the ttee or' ' seemed that the Motion . ..• was niade entirely , the total want of policy _.i6ut the whole of the *id fereience tp .he apper_rect thiuk, I ed, but a t of 'empire: 'Gentlemen misfit Catholic proceedings. „Gentlemen had expeuded math that the armagemant . • • • 'leen, • tery'badl y made; be talk very big within the walls of that House; thel • . . • • .. • - ~, . ~. .• • s • ' • . _;.~ „,,P , f Tlir N. imperiottstsr 410 114 4 1,6 shoe r Committeeintallis tkteiibut if it those against w'