The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1807-07-16 00:00:00

~~ The Secretary at War brought op a Return of the number of deserters in, and the effettive strength of, the army, pursuant to order.—Laid upon the table, and ordered to be printed. The con,idetation of the Ripon of the Committee upon the Smuggling Bill was postponed to Monday next. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Mr. lIUSKISSON moved, " That the House do go into a Committee of Supply." And Mr. FOSTER moved, " That the several Estimates which were not formerly referred, includ ing the Estimate for the Roman Catholic Seminary at Maynooth, be submitted to said Committee."— - . Ordered. Mr. FOSTER accordingly moved, "That the sum of 6,2371. be granted to His Majesty for the Barrack Depart- ment of Great Britain. for IS I. 841,0001 for the Cu.nmissary Department of Great Britain. 10,3611. to make good a Balance due on account of the Capture of th Swerd:sh Convoy 10,0001. Irish Currelicy, fur Paving, Cleansing, awl Light ing the Streets of Duolin, for the year 18J7 8. 3,4981. Irish Currency, for defraying the expense of receiv ing Evidotee in Ireland, upon the sewed Petitions presented •gaunt Returns to Parliament, fur the year 18 .7." Mr. FOSTER then stated to the Committee, that as to Maynooth College, he had tormetly men• tinned that it was his intention to propose only the usual sum of 80001: towards defraying the expense of the original estimates. He wished now to ob serve, that when this College was first instituted, in the year 1799, it was understood as being the uni versal sense of the Iris's Parliament, that that Se minary should he thereby completed, to the full ex tent, for editeatiog all pert ma that were required for the ecclesias ical establis .ments of Ireland.— This was granted upon the principle of its be ing better to have Roman Catholic Priests edu cated at home than abroad. The original esta blishment sifts for the education of two hundred scholars In the course of last Session, a further sum of 50001. was ask d, for the purpose of making an addition .o the semina•y, and to double the num ber of scholars. This having been propmed wit'.- out any inquiry having heen instituted either on the part of the Uni t ed Parliament, oi any previous in vestigation by t'le Irish House or Commons, at the time of its existence, no document whatever had been laid before him to guide his judgment upan the subjea He hat therefore thought it proper to pau-e a little before he adopted a system that would entail considerable expense, airl with the political resu!ts of which we were totally unacquainted.— After which, finding. however, that the work of building hail been already begun, and part of the additional sum or money so proposed to have been granted. had been expended, he saws that if it was not attually so previded, the expense most necessa . rily fall to be taken out of the usual grant for that establishment. On that ground alone he meant to propose that the sum of 50001. should be granted al ; with the 80001. originally voted by the Irish Painament ; but under this coudition, that he did not mean to provide that additional sem annually,for doubling the number of studenti in that University, the oriAinal number bring ()mid sufficient for filling every situation in Ireland that the Roman Catholic Estaulishment might be called upon to fill. With that view he should propse that the sum of 15,0.001. Fish eureney, be gttnted to Ilia Ne.f-%te, Cot A, f•eyth: the charger of the It I.nan Cathnbc Srnonary ru 1-ei.in4, from the Stn of January 11 to the bti, January 1838. Mr. ELLIOT I' rose, and ohserved, that there as as no institution in which he felt a greater degree of anxiety and interest, than in that for which this gran: was now proposed. It was not his intention now to provoke discussion upon this matter, but, morely to animadvert on whiflad fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman. He tMr. Foster) had in sisted, that there was a want of clocumeats to au thorize the additional grant which had been for merly submitted to the consideration of Parliament ; but he (Mr. Elliot) thought that there was no such deficiency of documms. The Petitian itself stated ample grounds to induce the House to grant this additional sum ; and he was persuaded, if the Right Hon. Gentleman had inquired, he would have found, that the Irish Parliament bad formerly in vestigated the subjea, and the result of their inves tigation was, that there was not a suffi:iont source for the instruilion of Roman Catholics, unless some were to be sent out of the country to receive a fo reign education, whicl. certainly was not so deaira ble as a home one. He appealed to the candour of the House, whether it would not have been most irjarious to the feelings of men, whom it was our duty to conciliate, had :his been objeCted to, after evidence of its necessity had been laid before the House? He, therefore, cortaiiily applaqded and approved of the Han. Gentlemr,'s proposing the liesolui.on as it now stood, as he would have repro bated a contrary cnndue. Mr. HAWKINS BROWNE said. he was very far from objeEling to this institution, as originally created by the Parliament of Ireland ; but had he been a Member of that Parliament, lie should have op; °red the whole of the Grant which was made to it. Ishe question now was not whether the Rotran Catholic Priests of Ireland should be edu cated at home or abroad, but whether they should be educated at the expense of the people of their own per suasion, or at the expense of the public ? He behoved this was the first instance of the Govern thent of any country ever conttihuting to the in strueion of people of a contrary religion to the established one. The public were to teach a con trar y religion from that which they professed, by sup plyng the money to do it. The College of May :moth were thus to be ins rueed in a religion which Members of P irhament all abjured when taking their seats in that I louse. He certainly, however, should no: hive opposed this grant, nor this additional sum fur building. had it been merely for the pur pose of receiving people to be instrueed at the ex prns- of the Roman Catholics themselves, and not at the expense of the public. However much Par liament might be disposed to shew favour to the lit-itnan Catholics of Ireland, it was nit surely de sirable that it shouid promote the increase of those "Ito professed such religious principles. Supersti tion and bigotry appeared to be gaining grre:nd more than ever in Ireland. and that by the Gondiss and muitipiicity of Priests in that country. %Visite he lamented, very sincerely. Os see the great number of Priests and their influence, he certainly should riot be a oartv to looming I4lrlie After what bad passed last Parliament upon this suhjea, and after part of the edifice had bees begun, he shopld nor .wish to oppose the grant made upon this occasion, but he certainly should wish to prevent any such fame applications of the public money. Mr. WINDHAM said, he did not kndw how far this discussion might be applicable to the ques tion before toe Committee, but when he found it introdliced by Gentlemen upon the other side of the House, he thought he might venture to follow them, considering it as deep water.—(l laugh.) The lion. Gentleman who had last spoken,seerned to consider it as a singular instance, and an anomaly, that the Government of a country snould under take the teaching of a religion different from that which is established ; he should upon that observe, that this might or might nut be an anomaly, bto still hr should say, that it was the peculiar situation of Ireland, at this present moment, that called for some exertions and concessions on the part of Go vernment in her behalf. He must upon such an oc casion protest against all arguments drawn from general practice, unless it could be made out that that practice had existed formerly under similar cir cumstances. Before he knew whether he was to consider it as illegal or not, he must kadw whether the existence of that religion was to be considered in relation to the bulk of the populatioa? whether the case was then argued upon the footing of hav ing no religion at all ? whether religion, it any were existing, could be disseminated without proper per sons to instruct others, and to teach it ? or whether we were to have the religion of a barbarous and un instructed people, by an education abroad ? When it was said, that this is a religion of a gross, illite rate, and barbarous state, he would ask whose fault that was owing to ? He must say, that the vel y existence of the Papery Laws was the cause of that alleged barbarity. The effein of suppressing flee means of instruction would not be to cuovert Roman Catholics to Protestantism, but, on the contrary, lead them into all the most dangerous superstitions and bigotry of their own. It would certainly be gross amongst a gross people. But lie did not know that amongst the enlightened people of that country any such feeling exists as to those who professed the reli gion of this country. He believed, indeed, that th.tt grossness which an Hon. Gentleman had alluded to. was more conspicuous amongst some people who professed the religion of this country, than it was in Ireland s as the late cry of No Popery," had evinced.—(Hear! hear ! bear!) No conduct of the Catholics of Ireland had evinced such gross ignorance. vulgar prejudice, and blindness, as had been shown by that sort of Protestantism which we had lately in this countre. The present situation of Ireland was such, that although the religion there prevailing bad not a preference amongst our par. tielities, it was undoubtedly preferable to no reli gion at all; and. therdore, not being able to con vert the people of our sister country into Protest aftts, it was surely the interest of the United Kingdom, that they should be as good Catholics as Catholics could be made. The Goveinasent of the country having taken the lead in the cry of " Na Popery," it was certainly their duty to adopt the most proper mode to effen their °Ned, which was alone to be done, by giving teem the best in, striation at home. Being convinced that it was the interest of the country to do this to the fullest et• tent, Oe most heartily approved of the grant now proposed. Mr. HAWKINS BROWNF. explained. and said, that he bunny concurred in the propriety of giv ing instrodicm to the Roman Catholics, but not that sort of instruction which had relation to their own religion. If it were possible to introduce parochial schools, to instruct them along with Protestants in feuding and writing, and on the great paint 4 'es of religion in which we all agree. that he thought would promote benefit to Ireland, mote than any measure whatever. Mr. PARNE.LL said, that as the Hon. Gentle man who had just sat down, bad expressed his re gret at seeing an Establishment under the support of Government. for interne:lion in a religion con trary to that of the State, he thought this gave him (Mr. Parnell) an opportunity of explaining to the House s in a satisfatiory manner, what the prin. ciples of that religion, which was so much execrat ed, were, and how far they were repugnant to the established religion of the country. Ha really and most sincerely believed, that the existing prejudices arose from no other cause, but a misunderstanding of what the nature of those principles were. H: had in his hand the Roman Catholic Prayer Book, which the Priests put into the hands of the lower orders of Irish Catholics. In that book was con tained a compilation of the whole of those prin ciples, by Dr. Coppinger, Titular Bishop of Cloyne, and as it would tend, so his view of the subjelt. ma terially to elucidate the matter now under discus sion, he should rake the liberty of reading a few re tools (tom it. Here the Hon. Member read as fol low. It is no matter of faith that the Church can noterr, either in matters of fn.% of speculation, or civil police, depending on mere human reason, these not being divine revelations deposited in the Ca tholic Church. Hence is deduced 'lf a General Council, much less a Papal consisrory, should pre sume to depose a King, and to absolve his sabjeCts from their allegiance, no Catholic should be bound to submit to such a decree.' Hence it follows, that the subjects of the King of England 1 tulully may, without the least breach of any Catholic prin ciple, renounce, upon oath, the teaching or pre-- tising the doctrine of deposing Kings. excommu ntcated for heresy, by any authority whatsoever, as repugnant to the fundamental laws of the na tion, as injurious to Sovereign power. and as de. struttive to peace and Government. It is no mat ter of faith to believe, that the Pope is himself in fallible, separate from the Church, even in expound ing the faith. By consequence. papal deSnitions, or decrees, taken exclusively from the General Council, are universal exceptions to the Church, and oblige none, under the pain of heresy, to an in. tenor assent ; nor do Catholics, as Catholics, believe that the Pope has any direA or indireet authority over the temporal power or jurisdietion of Princes ; hence. if the Pope shall pretend to absolve or do pense His Majesty's subjetes from their allegiance. on account of heresy or schism. such dispensation would be null and void ; and Catholic sublease not withstanding such dispensation of absolution. would he still bound in conscience todefend their King and country at the board of their lieu alai Rota:lei, as nir as Protestants would be bound. even against the Pope himself, if he were to invade the nation. As for the problematical disputes or errors of par ticular divines, in this or any other matter whatever, sitar* in no ways responsible for them, nor are Ca tholics, such, jitstly punishable on their account. As for thelting-killing doctrine or minder of Princes excommunicated for heresy, it is universally admit ted in the Catholic China. and expressly so de clared in the Council of Constance, that such doc trine i 9 impious and execrable, being contrary to the known law of God and Nature* it is a tUndamental truth in our religion. that no power on earth eau li• cense men to lie, forswear, or perjure themselves, to massacre their neighbours, or destroy their native ' country, under the pretence of promoting the Ca tholic cause or religion. Furthermore, all pa-dons or dispensations, granted, or pretunde(! v.) be granted, in order to any web ends Cr designs, could have no other validity or area, titan to add sacrilege or blasphemy to the above-mentioned crimes." The Hoe. Gentleman continued aA said, that he did not mean to animad:ert upon these principles. It was sufficient to re Id thchi, to show the absurdity of 'hose prejudices which existed again ,t them. The from which he had read was the Commoo Prayer Book, which was ir, use amongst the Catholic suby in Ireland, as com mon as the Prayer Book which n. • in use in this country, the principles of Winch we believe can alone lead to salvation. Upon these gsniurds, he thought himself warra-ated in as sting, that the Catholics of Ireland did van entertain any religious tenets whatever, that were INCOribi:tent with the leaging and material poles of tie Pautestant Re- Mr. WINUHAM explained, awl said, that the Chiirch of England, rejeffing various tenets of the Church of Rome, only showed our belief of reeclo tion ; but the two Churches kept much closer to iv.ther than we were aware ot. The Church of Rome had all that we had, but we had not all which they had ; we having kept a part, and rejected that which we thought erroneous. Mr. W. SMITH said, he thougl.t it was of greater importance that the people should be all liberal and enlightened, than that we should con sider whether they were Protestants or Ca:holics. Was it not of greater advantage to the State that the Roman Catholics should be enlightened by Priests educated under the immediate eye of Go , verninent, than that they should be taught in any mode their parents might be pleased to instruit them ? He should advise it as being infinitely more consistent with sound policy and expediency, that the Government should take the whole upon them selves. The doctrines in which they wars - warn/led at this seminary, were such as were likely to make them good subje6s of the State. They declare their profession to be, that no power can absolve them from the oath of Allegiance. He should wish to know why, if we belive them in this. and trust them in some things, we do not entrust them with every thing I If we believer the Roman Catholics to be incapable to be trusted in political matters, why do we trust them in the social intercourse between man and nian ? How could we get rid of this dilemma, either in theory or in pro/lice ? The safest end the only way would be to believe, that Roman Catholics are like all other men who are good sahjeat of the state. Now, he wished to say a word ,r two upon • what was denominated erderetren. He thought that that word, or the abuse of it, led men into very false mode:, both of thinking and of aging. Toleration was what led one man itt give to ..glO - a liberty to protease what he believed not himself. This 'hewed a false idea of superiority ; but against this, he (Mr. Smith) did heartily protest, as he thought that the majority had no more right to controul their opponents in religious matters. than the minority had to controul theirs; and therefore to talk of toleration in such cases, was to inculcate a false and erroneous opinion, leading men into errors contracliSed by pra&ice. It was evident that we. i this country, bad made very small progress in refl.• Eying or doing away this error, during the space of two centut les ; when we recolleEted the woman named Catherine de Medicis, who was one of the greatest tyrants in every thing but liberty of con- science, the last instruCtions she left to her son were, to grant liberty of conscience to all his subjeas. for she hid seen Iron. her oar. experience, and knew from that of others, that religious differences, and the distutbances that arose from them, were never to be composed by force. This was an event of two centuries ago. and it appeared to him that we had not get one step farther, nor so much enligh tened upon the subj.h at toleration as that woman, who was so much reprobated for the other parts of her conduit ; and this too at a moment, when, be yond aU others, there seemed to be incomparably the greatest reason to cart y religious liberty to the greatest extent. The Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Foster) had said. that he did not mean to pledge himself to give this additional grant in future; but he hoped that every rnonieut's refleaion from this time to that when it must again come before the House. would convince him that what be had done Was wise and prudent ; that he would give with a good grace to the Roman Catholics, not only that. but eve-y civil privilege, and make them lose every charatteristic math which has tended to raise the country against them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that although he was convinced of tile pro- priety of general instruiStion. yet it would respire more argument than he had yet heard, to convince him that it would be proper to raise and Mama a priesthood to disseminate a Religiom contrary to that which was established in the country. How ever much be obje9ed to the motion for an addi tional grant to the College of Maywood) during last Session. he was prepard to approve of the pro position of his Right Hon Friend, in this one. us it appeared that a considerable issue cf . money had been already made.and buildn,is commenced, which made it necessary that good faith should be kept by Parliament. It might create a degree of dissatisfaSion and resentment. if it were to be found, that this pre sent Administration were inclined to make this grant the only exception to the measures of the former Administration, to which they bad agreed. He did, however, believe. that it was one of the firs: instances in history. of a Parliament providing for the insuuction of soy set of people in a religion contrary to what they themselves professed I apd dos L too, ntees a Petition from that i rstablislitnert. supported by no evidence of its nec• , sity .. Parham r,t ought to pause well before they resolve,' to continue frivnishing the means of pouting firth annually hutieteds of educated Priests from the College alluded to ; the mete esp•cially, as tt ey were not under the controul or immediate eye : . -.rd direelion of tl.e Govcrnrarl.: of the c , entry. Ti e o dfuo d; ) : r e a g ee c l itr l g , sting t n , ,,,,, ert a .s t ;_t:, l , : e ; ye : , i n ' t,,,.. l h l e e re t : g o t, ,R, , i . k now, in o i.,.me f ne, J tp, : e t e i. ie w u i:t af s i e l , t lioo h l o eit e l r iy r cr w e 7t h; ,ele a r ;i gi : s e t n itoo t t ur t h t::: : aki, W n. to p en. et :._ e r, p i e t h ey wet • .•. he, were there insttua, d, an,l what moment, had double the advantage that the PI.). test:ter 11-ligien had in Ireland. An elymotnary education W 45 r.cw „Worded to eu3 Caliiiic e , at t h e Ccli..ee ef NIA yonnh, while only lie) Pratcst.ree were eilocered at the UnireiJity of Dubl n ei, e , the Crete:secs enjoyed a manitesr a:lv:agave, ret yet this two-fold seperiotite was, by this . pop e , ton, to be cenvertel into one, that was to be 1,,,e-i. Id He wished to put it. to the calm rifl :tinn n) 0- t i Huse, whether they really meant to put ,lei ( thrilie Religion over the Protestant Eiraelisie, ~ TN , : It emaixt.latholic ne!ipion, was net the eel - e of the Ancstles, but i', consisted of the abuses w . h,cir Frew vet of that religion, which were cort(4.'erl ot the R. formation. These wore points which a -t... cot veiliaps proper for discussi:in at this moment, but he. ,:id truot, that Parliament would passe, at 4 future period, before they made any permanent grants to an establishment of Roman Clamber, not tinder the iminediae contioul and diredion of Government. Lord lIENRY PETTY vindicated the I re Ad ministration in bringing forward the motion e f ties additional grant for the Seminary at Msi.. l nth ; it had served to promote a system of useful '.. ,- w. ledge amongst the lower orders in !relate]. lie sort of system of education which the Right Iron. Gentleman had spoken of, could only refer to the Catholic Laity ; but it the Catholic Religion be re cognised in Ireland, the means of education onght to be afforded them ; but this was not intended to raise tie and perpetuate a Catholic Prie s th oo d, fee the Roman Catholic Religion had. under various circumstances, been perpetuated in Ireland from one generation to another. It the means of educe ton were nut Afforded them in Ireland, they wield look for the same education abroad, whrr, thee would find inculcated all the dangerous extremes cE Popery, is addition to other dangerous dodtrines cE Civil Government ; or, as they would at all eves tontine to exist, would it be eipediett to allow them to exist without any education ? Fire precise summate in which different religious sentiments have been carried to she most dangerous extent, were madly those when attempts were made to out them down by force. Was it net thus with respett to the Presbyterian Religion in Scotland, in the times of the Coveaanters when. by a barbarous policy. they were perseeutei by the then Govertuneet. But these very dodrines bad now becnn.e harinitis. whets brought finch to the observation of de world : it was only when chdrines were ink, and concealed, Inc. mysterimis, that they became dangerous. He atilwed that the most (unexceptionable mode of carrying on the education at Maynnoth should be ~,!opted; but this was 101 t, as the Right Hearer able Gentleman suppoora, kept out of the eye of '.:;ovetnrnent, nor shut out from public observation. Government have it is their power to ascertain whatever tegulatioos were carried on in tLat semi nary, as there were fire visitor, legally appointed, viz. the Lord Chancellor of Ireland. the Irish Chan cellor of dm Exchequer. and Ares Qf the Judges.-- (To prove this his Lordship read the Ad which related to this eubjea). He acknowledged, that mist of the Professors in the Seminary at Maynooth had received a foreign education...and that some of them were foreigners; hut this was Owing to the cireunsstance of the low 'tato, in punt of e i to,s. lion, to which the priest. of that rage* had pre viously been reduced its Ireland; but if Govern. Milt took the education of this priesthood books own hands, although it nsight ho called a Catholic Establishotent, it would still be Irish sad not fa reign. The Memben of the late Administration had made local inquiries respelling that establish. mint. before they moved for the additional grant. Why did not the present Chancellor of the Ex chequer then objeft f (Mr. rERCEVAL said. wnen a giant of a d c id ron he ih n e a l m o te ; that he admidottra.objed.) But why public money was concerned ? The Right Hon. Gentleman had contrasted the support granted to the Seminary at Maynooth, and that to trinity College. Dublin ; but it was to be considered, that this la g . ter was not the ouly one foe the purpose of su s ing Protestant Clergymen in Ireland. w O ho went xford and Cambridge also afforded Clergymen. support the Protestants in Ireland. But if a dek riency in the means of education was complained of to . for the Protestant Church of Ireland. he should then say , do not on this account demolish the Se minary at Maynooth, but rather increase the i mps of education at Trinity College ; and he wou s that the Romish Clergy of Irela nd, existin g as t he y . did, should look foe the means o f their education to the Government at hove, and not be driven to seek after a foreign or a mysterious education. . 0 _ Mu. LESLIE FOS I 'ER t ii)m a ti v i,,i e rdei h ns,t i s tsti a ds P en r et .__ I .. U _ tA a :i.4 to the system of educating Inch Priests in Irela n d. rather than in foreign parts, but he did not appte i of the extension of this sY It u• • mite, either for the Priesthood or Laity. . . now ahoct thirteen or fourteen years agos',Dc ar u then Government of Ireland consulted the le sli , , , s Catholics of that county, and their statement ttit i that the number of young men of their pe_re_l l :si a '_ , . stein beyond its tuna .. required to be elecated, would be *wet 3 ° 17 _ n _, t w h i e th e ia lip lu en u s t e tet o n f demand an additional pet nesiterit increase cad _ a ., 1 0a, years, slifstthiteuytihenar f:, c 0 01“ 001 ; I for bu; a LiL il i fitst, ward.:f or ,r th a e n i nacdrdei.reuototth.t.loe ir as the nureeer of parishes . n Ireland cep roue Laity ra ° ish Prnel years been dou'lle,%, or else Our the 1 r2 ,__ ob; ,.. L e o n ra m o e n . g i , t i ni t u i s re t beireisiLhett.4ine_.levririecd that i.. dis h !): did t.ot here out Lei' tees days; 4 04 "' 0 . 0. ,,, d to this aeoite.nal gram. in :ilea:nee to the het w i - e.. a ' Priesreiood, his 0tt1..t.4,4 were stream a , 1 this 'mutat' , i , NI it W 33 atieneesed to curate lesois .. .. e _ btu eaucatiou •ir thee/10min; Lin!. The stns il_ln , .‘ ' . ....j oft at i 111 , ., : iiber,l ay :....ens of e4uostioa vs..- polfar.litel a. vi .