The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-04-17 00:00:00

-A-.-- --~--~ No. 1291. IMPERIAL 1 1 4 ItLIAME Nl'. . ' planation on a question of privilege, but they have entirely suppressed the explanation itself. These two Honou.sable Gentlemen's characters fortu nately place them above such paltry resentment as this is; they are men who are entitled to treat it with the most sovereign contempt ; but although this be matter of indifference to those Honourable individuals, it is by no means matter of equal in. difference to the public; for, if the proceedings of this House are to be reported at all, it is essen tial that they should be reported fairly, fur all the information which is conveyed to the public of what transpires in this House should be impartially and fairly given. Gentlemen must feel, that by suppressions of tbif kind, the whole report of the proceedings must be vitiated, and the permission of this Ilouse to let its proceedings be reported, is set at nought, and totally defeated. Sir, itop prcssion of this kind be permitted , I clo.#ol know where it is to end. These Gentlemen, if they please, may lake umbrage at any man, and at any description of men iu this House, and totally sup.. press all they say, whilst they detail every thing that is said by another description of men. Sir, I say that this is nit a fair manner of reporting our debates in this House; for what is the conse quence ? all information given to the public by ; these defective reports has the effect.of a false re. port ; for by suppressing what has been said by! certain individuals, the public are imposed on—a i false impression is made on the public mind, of the nature of discussiOns in this House; and if this house is to depend on a combination of these peo- ple, who, as I said before, may or may not be go verned by good principles, and whose efforts may be directed to the very worst and most mischievous purposes—l declare, Sir, that Ido not now make any formal complaint of this abusive practice; but I do hope that to those who have heard what I have said, it may be a sufficient warning. If .not, let them remember, that,the House does pas- . Ms means to vindicate its privileges, and to iike its Orders respected—and if this be not a "roper warning, I shall call on the House to re fer-to a measure that may be adapted, most effec. 5444 fur the purpose, for this is a dangerous practice. I trust I shall meet with the support of tite House, and of Gentlemen of every description; for those who think the publication of our de. debates' altogether dangerous, must think them most dangerous by their _ ,be ing misrepresented. HOUSE OF LORDS, Arm 16. Too Committee of Privileges on the Roxburgh Peerage, Broaghas was heard at the bar conclusively in behalf of t a dy Cues Ker, aid the further consideratiou deferred to ti.morrow. s me at Billy, chiefly private. were brought up from the c o mmons and read the tirst Bane. Lord DONOUGHNIORE gave notice, that he should l ove for the taking into consideration, on the 2lst et* May ne st, the various petitinzu from the Catholics of Ireland, which were lyipg on the table. INFERIOR CLERGY. Lord HARROW BY laid on the table, returns of the An nual Incomes not exceeding 15)l. of the Clergy of the Estab • lobed Church. Ld. ROLLA ND repeated what he had before felt it his duty toolae.t,touching the propriety,antLunder Inc present circum owcs of the country (pressed as it was on all sides with •ex cessire burthens) the necesiity of a farther diselosdre tame the opera eau presmlt:sl could neford far the hiforniatiou of the )1,,,0e on the subject to which those papers related. Lord HARROW BY contended, as had done before, for the sufficiency of the preseut documents for the object proposed. Lord HOLLAND again rose, end, professing the utmost &terrace an.l respect for the whole order of the Clergy, gtaiutaised, that at a period When the public hurthens were so weighty, and whe an te impoverished laity were about to be cl ued upon to :ulv 10140001. to the Church, it would well become the advocates of the measure, to show how far the Church establishment was dot efficient for its own due mainte nance, and whether incidental deficiencies in the income of the subordinate Clergy, would not more readily, more pro revenuen name naturally. be supplied by the superabuudant of the higher clerical orders, than from the over drawn aad aboo-t exhausted purse of the industrious laity. • wm . chart,. of tipn, that those incidental applications P strhameot were improper, and that one rational and cananutioatil establishment should be funned. And such tin areugewent, notwithstandiug suggestion which had been uttered by the Noble Lord (Ilarroivby) opposite, be thought o tuld come witu peculiar fitness and efficacy from that • the deliberatious of which would have the full ad saiitage of the leamsing and wisdom of the Reverend Bench. Lord LAUDERDALE proposed a clause in reference to the Order of the House, ou the subject of confiscated estates in Scotland, which was agreed to. Tate Bills on the Table. mutt of them- private, went th;Jugh their several readings, and the atm- adjourcieli. • HOUSE OF COMMONS, Arass,f4 • -*•• • A new Writ was ordered to be made nut for St: German's, to the room .f Sir Joseph Sydney Yorke, vacated by his If cepunee u. the Chiltern Hundred,. The Irish Coroners' Bell was read a second time, and or• erred or be committed to-morrow. The ]rub Post Rorris' Bill was read A third time, and passed. • Mr. PR F.NDEROAST put otT his notice bf motion re spertiiic the E x pedition to Macao to the Bth May. the LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND brought up ' Bill to alter the mode of extractinc decrees from the Court of Ses,ion in Scotland, which was read a .first time, add or dered t•• be read a second time on the first day of May next. The LORD ADVOCATE of SCO TLAND brought up a Bet to abridge the mode of extructin; decrees from the Court of Aameralty and the Commissarial Court, which was read a first time, and ordered m be read a second time on the third day of o,a,y neut. Mr. ROO moved, that anseemint of the MOW espewill. tare of the British Museum be laid no the table.—Ordered. The House went into a Committee, to consider of the priation of sugar and entree from Goad drupe. Mr. ROSE moveti, " T'aat the saws, Ac. unmated from Coadaloupe, be !objected to the sauce duties as attached to sirsilar articles imparted from other islands iu the West- Indies." Atter some observations from Mr. M kRRYATT, Mr. BARIIAM, :sad Sir T. TUftTON, the Resolution was pat and ;tercel to, r..id the Report ordered to be brought up to morrow. Mr. BRAND gave notice, that he would, after the recess, tohroit a Motiou reipecting the Itepresentatiou of the People is Parliameut. time, tlfli The lankeeperi Provision Bill was read a third Paned. REPORTING. • Mr. WALLACE called the attention of the House to the object of reporting the debates of this House. Ile complained of the manner in , which the report of the speech of a Right Hon. Baronet (Sir John Anstruther) had been reported in a Morning Newspaper a few days ago, which, he alleged, was misrepresented in such a manner as that the meaning was perverted. Ile said it had of late become a.n occasional practice for Report. ers to suppress some matters which passed, and to add some tlyt did not pass in debate in that House; and if this practice was permitted to go on without interritption, no Member of the House of Commons, who wished to stand well in the es. timation of his Constitspoits or of the public, could be assured tbat he should do so, however pure his intentions might he ; fur he must be at the mercy of a set of people who hail entered into a combi. • nation to report in what way they pleased—a set of people (sail' the Hon. Member) who ars suffered to conic here, and who are governed by motives (very good ones perhaps) which may be very bad ones ; and I would ask the House whe tlim. this be the tenure on which it wished to hold its character, either with reference to the opinion of its particular constituents, or of the public ? This, Sir, is the first point to which I wish to call the attention of the House. There is another sub. ject to which I wish also to call their attention ; it relates to two Members of this House, which, although I have had no conversation with them on the subject, I think ought to be brought forward for the consideration of the House ; for it seems to me to deserve equally with the other subject the serious consideration of the House. Every body who has read the reports of the debates of this House for some time past, must have observed that the rirports of them arc given with very consi derable additions. :Persons who profess to give the debates of this House have presumed to take offence at the imbibe conduct of certain Gentlemen who arc among the most conspicuous in the debates of this House, and have thought proper to sup. puss every sentence which has been uttered by these Hoilutirchle Members, and this resolution thy have carrit.il to such a length, that.; because an explanation which yourself, Sir, gave upon a very gray t• and important subject, deeply affect ing the priviLges of this House, happened to arise out of so observation made by one of those Ho. nourable Members, they have suppressed the whole of it—that is, they have nut only sup. Pressed the observatious which cal 'al for your es. IT. IS FOR . . ENT. ING THAT WHICH IS INTENDED FOR THEIR, INFORMATION BEING MISRE. PRESENTED AT ALL; AND REALLY IT IS A MATTER IN WHIT 11 THEY ARE MOST DEEPLY INTERESTED." • • Mr. WORTLEY (as we understood) said, that this combination must he broken through, for the public will not suffer that reports of the proceed ings of the House of Commons should be thus defectively given. He hoped some Paper would stake the matter tip properly, and • report the speeches of all Members fairly ; if any Paper should do so, he should be glad to support it. [Order, order !] Mr. SPEAKER--" The Honourable Gentle man must be aware, that this is an irregular con versatiou." Here the matter dropped, and here it rests for the present. Lord COCHRA'NE postponed his two no tices, which stood fur this day, until . Weduesday next. Pltp/ATE•STEALING. Sir SAMUEL itOMILLY postponed, until Tuesday, the Ist of May next, the further con. sideration of the three Bills , which he had brought in upon the subject of private stealing from the person, stealing from the dwelling.house, and stealing on navigable rivers. JOIIN'GALE JONES. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move, he said, That Julio Gale Jonec,• who is now a prisoner in Newgitte,. under the authority of this House, may be discharged. " Although the opinion that I delivered in the House on the subject of the le 4ality of that imprisonment remains quite unal tered with me, it is not my object, to call on the House to discharge him front his imprisonment on any of the grounds which I submitted formerly on, that subject, but on the simple ground that the punishment which he has suffered is sufficiently severe for the offence which he has committed. am extremely anxious that this should be well un derstood by the House, and that my motion was made exactly vu . the same facts as those which were detailed to the House on the 12th of March last ; on that day there were several Gentlemen who declared they would have voted for this mu. due, if the Hon. Mover of it (Sir F. Burdett) had not proposed it on grounds to which the House could not accede. For the Worthy Barn. act had insisted on it, and had made that the ; ground of his motion, that the imprisonment in-' tide instance was illegal ; and therefore certain Gdntletnen, who were ready to accede to the mo. tiCtil on the ground of the imprisonment being equal to the offence, would not accede to it en the ground that the imprisonment was illegal; be cause that would give counlcnisuce to a doctrine from which those Gentlemen dissented. Nothing at all that I shall say upon this subject can de. . '_ • - ... 41 1774, F . -- • • :M., . • -.• , •. , . . . .. - e .. ' * '' . • * '': 4 le 4t. ' e . A N ..$l. , . , , M ;.4 : e r ~, ,• . , ' ..., . - . ..,h , • , . . . . ~, k. %.: ,--• • - •, ! —,!:: • ' ,s - 1 .. ..• ' .--; _ : "'lt - ,!1 , . . . % , . ~., ..fr V , I • : 4 1\ •• -c,...e... , " 1 , 1 7-: . . . s J ...., 0 . : :- '7^tf. 0113 .. _ • ... '.:-:. • •‘ v i Q7 11 4 4 ., k . • . , . ! • 1 , •i. 1 - i t it. i - : s ) e Pill\jt '4l te , t.l., L. znrt*n.. • ..0•41 , M1 . • • •••••• g. * ••• 401 —. , '- . .. LONDON, TUESDA 1 7 , APRIL 17, 1810. _•. • • . . . . ........—.......--,--„. prove me of a single votefrom these who objected - to the motion bectuse made on the alleged illega. lity of the commitment ; for I shall rest my mo tion on the single ground which I have stated, and which I may perhaps be pardoned for repeating, that of the imprisonment being fully equal to the crime which the individual has committed. I should, indeed, have been extremely glad to have an opportunity, if I could take it with propriety, of explaining some things I said on this subject on a former occasion, which have been misunderstood by some persons, and greatly, though uninten. tionally, misrepresented. I should be extremely glad to avail myself of an opportunity to answer some arguments I have heard urged on (hat sub. ject, and to explain some thingi which have been misconceived by many, and some, perhaps, by myself : but that opportunity the presetit Hats*: this question does mut twigwiarly afford me ;. sod I will not risque the security of the liberty of an individual for a single hour for such an object as that of supporting my own opinion on a point which I am determined shall not. arise • from any•l shalt urge on. the present question. I desire it to be understood, therefore., that I make the motion which I am about to submit to the House, un the*ingle ground that the puoisbonent which the individual has suffered in this instance, is at least, sufficiently severe for the offence of which he has been guilty. I cannot see any objection to my motion, unless it be this—that hitherto it has been the practice of the House, that, when. ever a person commits any act which amounts to a breach of the privilege of this House, the Hones will not listen to any application on his part, but a petition presented by himself, or on his behalf, coming from himself, in which he shall acknow. ledge the justice of the sentence, pronounced upon him, nod expressive of his contrition for the of. fence which he has committed. That I understand to be the general practice of the House. I am not aufficietrtly acwinted with the proceedings of the House, to know that it is the invariable practice of the House, that the House will not listen to any application on the part of an indi vidual, although acknowledging the justice of Iris sentence, end expressing his sorrow for his of. fence, unless that application be founded on his petition to the—House. I do not know that it is not in the power of the House, or competent to any individual Member of the House, not acting f t -, -41 the - tit of the offender, and not liar. Lion with him, but proceeding motives, from a sense of i n s.. to call for the discharge of an every body admits has suffered lishment as his offence can pus. for. Ido not know this Ilouse ought, any more than other human tribunals, to forget the great and leadiug principle of the ad ministration of justice. I think this House, as well as every.other tribunal under Heaven, should recollect that maxim which we all have heard, and on which we should all act—that in administering justice, we should take care that it shall be jus tice tempered with mercy.—l think, therefore, that we should not, for the sake of preserving the established usage of the House, on a question touching our own privileges, do that which is sub stantially unjust, and refuse to discharge en indi.. victual, whom every body admits to have been al. ready sufficiently punished for his offence, merely because that individual had not petitioned for jus tice ; fur if that were so, it would be difficult in deed to justify the proceedings of this House; for why should this House, or why should any human tribunal say, that it will not be satisfied with a punishment which itself admits to be suffi cient for the offence ; butahould call on the of. fender to abjure his error ; •to say that what ho has done is contrary to la*; telly ° that the's:Tinian which be has meintainedlattealvary to the aides Of. the Constitution, even althottglehe may be unable to think so ? I do'not know on Whet : principle this .doctrine can be asaintaleted ; it Is not any part of the practice ettny other arlbm.' oal, in which justice is alininliteted, to persist is ,a prosecution, which others may call pergcce. tion, in this manner, and. fur such' a reason. —I believe that we have not many loess. ; cations instituted against 'individuals for their spiffi, culative opinions fur any thing, eseept f•Jr• bpi ',haus, upon religions subjects, and we have, believe, had Rune of them since the Reformation ; and even when that tribunal did proaectHe indivi duals fors their opinions upon religious subjects, it was justly observed of these prosecutions, that they made hypocrites where they could not make converts; but arc we to Oil for a renunciation of error before we will administer jnstice ? Let us recollect what it is that has been brought before this House, that it is only a libel, and that we have proceeded against the author of it •as for u breach of privilege. Now, if this individual had published it as his opinion that the form of the Cinistitution of England was a pureanottarchy— .that the other two branches of the legislature were emancipation. from the Crown—that they might be lopped off and. cast into the fire, but the tree would be st tree still, for that the head, and there. ,fore the Constitution, remaihed. •[This was an allusion to a pamphlet published Many years ago. by Mr. Reeves, for which the House of Commous did not prosecute him as fora breach of privilege ) , but caused him to be prosecuted by the Attorney- General, which he was, and acquitted b . ) a jury] ,and mu:tined, properly speaking, unimpaired. Would the House • say that such an individual ought to be committed to Newgatc for a breach of the privilege of this House ; and that he must ra. -TA" - • , .• . . Those who think the publication of our debates i from the suggestion beneficial, will think also, that the benefit depends j ing any communical upon the truth of that publication, and THE entirely frum other puaLtc mak'. *IL( L, TUX r lE4O* sur4iii wow MYATT NAVE tiortinb. AT, SURJECTS bunal upon earth, t THEM TO SOME PRIVATIONS, IT IS individual whom c . TOR THEIR BENEFIT IT IS DONE; FOR, quite as much punis' 11T IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF PREVENT. itibly have called fol t;) • . 4 . r I • "W.: W 4 ,17 , -r-• ,• • •. 4 , • . - ~ . ' • PRICE eon. - __ main as long as thii House could ketiik him, until he recanted ; for he must, in such a case, have endeavoured, as much as in him lay, to deceive the people, and to bring reproach on this House, and, indeed, scandal on the Constitution; and in such a case, the House might be called upon to make such a person the instrument of his own humiliation ; but then it would amount to this, that this would, in that case, have power to in. ilia a punishment infinitely more severe than any other tribunal in this country has the power of inflicting ; for it might operate in a manner more terrible than that toy corporal punishment could occasion'; inasmuch at it is calling upon a man to make ao open declaration to degrade himself and to state what he does not believe. I say it is out sufficient to say, that such has been the practice of ibis Oolitic, I thy there tomtit to be some principle to support it, oor do I think that a few Ingle:melt • would be &efficient to support each a. practice, even in the miudg of those to whom practice it sufficient without its being founded npum pie; and here I may be perthitted to say, that much of the practice of this Muse has changed at the opinions of mankind have changed upon subjects of this kind ; both have become much more liberal than at one time they were, and much attention has, of late, been bestowed on the fed. ings of individuals. As a proof of this, I would ' remind the House of its former practice, when it was in the habit of ordering individuals who bad offended it to appear at its Bar, nut only to retract but to fall upon their knees at the bar. I befitted that for the last half century that degrading cere mony has been dispensed with. Alexantler.Mur. ray's case was I apprehend the last of that . kind: There arc other cages.of most extraordinary sub mission exacted by this House of individuals who had offended it. In one, on the subject of an election for the county of Cornwail, there were two individuals, one of them a Baronet, who were compelled, not only to make this submission at the Bar of this House, but to make a submission also at the assizes before a judge ; . aud therefore, if precedents are to be quoted, you may quote them for a severity which we hope the House ,Wotild brush to think of inflicting. But it will out adhere to any such precedents ; nor should it in my opinion adhere to precedent so far as to re• quire a petition from a person who has already re. ceived a ,punishment that is fully adequate to this offence he has committed. Now, what is the pie; nishment inflicted on this individual ? Be • ha 4 been sent to, and has been imprisoned in the cow • MUM jail of *-Newgate 'me 'Ante thoVittl day of Feb. last. When he had been only twenty days , in confinement, a motion 'was made it; this flouts that he be brought to the Bar for the purpose of being discharged ; and,' although I was riot then in the House, I understood from Gentlemen who• were present, it was the general sense of the House, that if a petition were presented, express ing his sense of sorrow for his offence, no doN't was to be entertained that he would, at that meet, have been discharged. Why then, Sir, you will consider that lie has been detalued five weeks, or nearly so, since that period, purely fur that omission, that is, for non-compliance with that which is said to be the usual' proceeding of the House; and I am sure that no maii.will contend that the not makkrg a submission irnt aft te be considered as stn o ff ence of magnitude, and yet you treat it as an offence not only of magnl tude, but of greater magnitude than that which yon -have decided to be a breach of your privilege, for that is the offence for which this individual was committed; and the House will consider, that if this Motion be not granted on the ground which I am now stating, that as it was willing to forgive the individual for his offence at the end of 20 days if he presented a petition, yet it punished him with imprisonment five weeks because he did not -petition ; and'the House Would have to consider Nether what torture of mind the principle of this tosieting on recantation may lead to. Let this'in.. divides' have ofitnded over so grossly against the privileges of the House; let him be ever so justly ,complained of, or ever so justly punished, stilt staking hilrecantation the . condition of his . re. lease, for he really in his heart feels (however er roneously) that ho has not offended against the orfrleges of this House, that he has not eiotatea any principle of the Constitution, how cruel is it to call upon him to declare what ha hat done?— How can he, without hypocrisy, make such a de, elarationt —and yet, if he does not, he must . main in Newgate as long as this House has peeve,; to detain him, that is, until the prorogation of •Parli,ament, which probably will not take place until the month of Juno or July, a punishmeqt which •no man in this Home will consider other. wise than more than ordinarily severe. Now sup. pose this individual shall have heard what pasted in this House on this occasion, and that no Ind's,. .dual in it had entertained the same opinion that he does on this point, and suppose that, after all, he should consider that his opinions are correct, although they may be erroneous opt. this House has no legal power of imprisonment tor (lions. • But, suppose he should really think that any thing that is not dune within the House,. and that the question is a question of greet constitu. tional importance, involving not only the rights of this House, but also the rights ut ever) one of the rest of his Majesty's subjects: let us support, thit after having heard all the arguments which have been urged, arid all the. precedents Which have been quoted, that he still conscientiously rcu s i lf i t ' the opinion, that to imprison a British sitt.ject for what ho has done is an illegal puntshment ; I would ask any Gentleman, who now hears me, whetha; .~ • • • . • • : - *. 7. • 1' ._ • K ~`- ~ •, i A - ~. , _,