The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-07-17 00:00:00

THE STA' N. • 1 gistrate ought to be able to convince tope neighbpuring litagistrate of the necetatei would effete' some ground Of protection. The . in question was given not to Justices merely, .4111 a Magistrates in general, many of whom, Weems's of , little Borengh Tosyns fee teample, wero.,the a mt., oat Resons in wild to be entrneted with tangrne =gessos power. Ho. objected leo teethe words rea -1 unable tftne.in opining the door, the construction of which might lead to very serious consequences. He lama of the Secret Committee, and God hawses, there I was no great'setret ; but there were some things di e. L ' closed in it which served greatly to quiet his mind. The combinations were mischievous, no doubt; bat k wu ridiculous to say that any persons were trained to arms for the purpose of overturning the Govern ment. The Right Honourable Gentleman proceeded to relate the evidence of a person who was twisted la, and who gave an account of what had passed at ape of their meetings. ONe person alleged they Were countenanced by the Duke of York; another proposed that Sir Francis Burdett should be Dictator for two years ; a third said, let that power be given to Lord Cochrane, Sir Francis Burdett, and Mr. Whitbread. With such silly ale-house and visionary projects were the persons at these meetings occupied. His conviction was, that one hundred stand of arms had not been taken altogether.—The Right Ho. nourable Gentleman proceeded to state, that there was no evidence of any depot whatever having been formed. If there had, he would have given Go vernment credit for bringing the matter forward much rooster, the disturbances in question hacingcom. menced in the mouth of February. In the Committee they could get no evidence phatever as to Notting. hamehire, the county where all the disturbances took their rise, and where every kind of outrage had been , committed fur four or five weeks. But in this county, it now appeared, that the people had been perfect. , l ly satisfied from the moment the Bill, in which theyl mere interested, had been brought into that Ilouse4j It, from this, appeared, that time people had no otherl object in view than to procure redress of grievances, teal or supposed . ; and, in such circumstances, ought not the House to pause before they passed a Bill like the present? The greatest grievances must result from the Bill, unless security was given, that no search should be made, except vv here there was not a probability only, but a certainty of gutting arms. The very act of searching a man's house for such an object must cause him to be regarded either as a marked man, or as a martyr. Ile called out the ,house not, in the first instance, to violate the funda mental principle of the Constitution—that a man's house is his castle. Ile saw that what he said made I no way with Gentlemen on the other side; but he must still protest against the present measure. Ile I was convinced they would all live to lament the day ; they passed the present Bill. The facts required to justify the measure were not before the House.— Whit an engine would the present measure not prove against us in the hands of the Ruler of the Conti nent ? Would he not tell his subjects—" See to what a state I have reduced your enemies, the Eug. lists, by the operations of the Berlin and Milan De crees ? I have driven them first to the necessity of abandoning their Orders in Council, which they pro fessed to have adopted as measures of retaliation ; and now I have driven them to make an enactment that their country is in a state of rebellion!" To I this clause of the Bill ho (Mr. Tierney) never (mild agree. Mr. BATIIUST supported the clause, as being es sentially necessary. Mr. WILBERFORCE epprOved of the authority 1 being vested in two Magistrates,, though in other re spects le.l thought the clause highly essential. Sir GEORGE WA RRENDER also concurred in thinking the clause in question the essential part of the Bill. Lord CASTLEREAGH contended,t ha t if one Ma gistrate could not act, bet that they mast wait, in ! all instances, till two Magistrates could be found,' ,he hatids of the Magistrates must be completely tied up, and that it would be better to leave out the clause ultog Air. V . ; [,BRA !lAA! BOOTLE said there would be the greatest difficulty, many parts of Lanca shire, of getting two Maghtrates together • and if' the clause was so amended it would be totally inef fectual. General TARLETOri replied, that the reference he wes about to make was simply for illustratiou. It would befivollected, that General Abercrombie, at that time— Mr. WALLACE again interposed, and called the Wm. General to order. General TARLETON said. that his object was t rove, that the Noble Lord opposite (Castlereagh) , was wholly incapable of discharging any of the as daous duties of the State at this perilous crisis. He teas not a fit man to govern the helm of State during the storm which now assailed our shattered bark ; he doubted sot the Noble Lord's intrepidity, but he might have had an opportunity of evincing it by sinking with the Royal George. The question was then put and earried,and on the *potion of Mr, VANSITTART, the was re-com- Vatted. Mr. ABERCROMBIE opposed that portion of tho meatore which related to the searching for arms, piece he thought that too much power was given to the Magistracy, who, en a mere surmise, or even less, were potshard to enter the house of any individual and deprive him of bisineans of defence. lie recoil:- j mended that this authority should be limited, to cases where depositions were made upon oath of the secre ting of arras. He was extremely unwilling to give too much power to the civil authorities, and thought that - where the Magistrates required aid, it would b wiser for them to call in the aid of the Military. , Lord CASTLEREAGH expressed his surprise at the concluding sentence of the lion. Gentleman's! speech ; his Lordship was by no means disposed to I turn Ids back upon the shit power, and substityte soldiery in their place, where such a proceeding was not absolutely necessary. It was true that Ministers , had received no intelligence of any new outrages, but the House would recollect, that it was the very principle of an organised system, to remain quiet 1 pntil every arrangement for open attack was vim- pleted ; and if temporary tranquillity did exist, it I should not be forgotten that it might be produced by design, for the sake of lulling Parlioment and the' pountry into security until the Legislature were Ilia- misled for the year. With respect to the power? given to Magistrates, the true question to he asked was, whether most was to be dreaded from the insur gents or from the Magistrat e s : if the latter were more terrific to the Hon. Gentteman, he was right in , opposing this Bill, but he certainly was the only man in the country who entertained such a prepos terous opinion. 'fhe object was to communicate such authority as would enable the civil officers to se pare the lives and property of the peaceable inhabi tants, and if less were delegated,' the effect might be merely to harass and torment the well disposed, without punishing the discontented. The Government had justly great confidence in the discretion of the Magistrates in the disturbed dis tricts. Mr. BENNET enquired what security the coun try could have that the Magistrates would do their duty? In considering this important question, he could not help recollecting what had been the result of the system in Ireland which was now about to be established for the first time ili England ; and to chew its pernicious consequences he read to the jiouse several of the public orders issued, by Sir R. Abercrombie. The 'Honourable Gentleman, in it. lustration of the cruelties committed in Ireland, goad an extract from a Proclamation of Major-Gene eat Morrison, requesting Officers to abstain from e setting fire to villages and houses, as the punishment seldom or never fell an the guilty. By such conci liatory measures was Lnrc Csrierailis at last ena. bled to save Ireland. He wished to prevent the ne cessity of ever recurring to clemency ; he wished that rit, no such powers should be ever given, as might have a tendency to inflame the country. Mr. ISRAGGE BATHURST said the abases in Ireland had nothing to do with the conduct of Ma gistrates in the disturbed districts. Ile proceeded to describe the nature of the existing disturbances, and . contended that the powers given to Magistrates were by no means too great. Mr. TLG HE had no connection with this country, and knew sery little of the habits of the people ; and it was eith the greatest reluctance that he rejected to • the powers now propcsed to be given to Magistrates. ne was inclined to think, from all that he had ever beard of the English Magistrates, that they stood higher than those of any other country ; but the 1 powers now given were in their very nature suet. as could hardly be executed without leading 'o see , . i. --The first clause empeeertd a 2 4 1,%.;1.tv.:e to appoint any person to break into any house to search for Inns. Who suggesteu the persons likely to possess arm, ? The ieformers : persons who now went about, 10 in a band, in fantastic dresses, and met on moors, like the witches in Macbeth, to excite disturbances which were for their interest. Mr. GII.IN proposed as an amendment,lhat the warrant to search, should be given by two Justices pf Peace instead of one. ° Lord CAiTLEREAGII objected to the difficulty of finding two Magistrates iu time, in some parts of the country. .. . Mr. TiERNET thought the, number of Magis trates in that ease ought to be increased, and quell. feed in something like the manner of Members of that Douse. He professed the greatest respect for Ma. gistrates in general, who were Witted to much con ltideration ; but it was impossible not to be aware, that there mere two sorts of Justices of Peace. One description, country gentlemen living on their estates, pnd dispensing good offices to every one around them ; and another description of persons who were perpetually applyi ng t o the . L or d Ch a ncellor to he lout into the Magistracy, not with a view of interest perhaps, though that might sometimes also be the a so, het for the sake of obtaining importance, that they might draw by their exertions the attention of Ooeernment on them, and that it might be said, t' Q I he takes' up more people in a year than ney Magistrate in the county."—[.4 laugh.]—On such a. prson sending a Constable, a p erson a lways of the lowest orders, 'With a Invent to search any house in 44 night time, tee most serious consequences - might happen. They were to dig for arms, as ihe Noble Lend expressed ; " for Attie orchard. end consateeni The power lictad I°, b. Mr. HOBHOUSE also enforced the necessity of vesting the power in one Mrrr,istrate only. Mr. HAWKINS IIii.OWNE supported the origi nal clause. Mr. MARTIN, of Galway, also supported, and ' observed, that with regard to its - operation, notbingl unpleasant could result from' it, provided no illegal' and tumultuary resistance was offered. Mr. SHERIDAN said that he certainly did not mean to have offered a word in the Committee, re serving his objections against the principle of the Bill upon the Report being broaght up ; but what he had hoard from the lion. Gettletnan who spoke last, and from other Members, induced him to depart from that resolution. His Hon. Friend who spoke last, had maintain / A tiles, with regard to the oputa-: tion of the Bill, there could be no strife where them: was no opposition ; certainly that was true, and so he might have said, that no rape could be committed where there wag no opposition.—[Lisughter.]-111s logy set 4 by the Honourable and !,earned Gentle. , . . I . Jill deehad it *TOR the race of 'the Rupert. The Lord CAS FLERRAGH contended, that the ana 2 ;,I'whole hilliness remanded him of the sham -plots and land, in 1807, and those now proposed with re. tr.oespimcies of 1793. He reinembeted what were : an, between the measures adopted with respect to net funds Ife ace to the.present disturbances i r" I el the alanos vid fictions of that Period. lie roman. :, because., in th e former case, severe and lw wer e e l ,go w ll be e:ted it in w o u rde sp r resd to su 4 p b F r tor ea t d d t b il e at dia" 6. ectetlr ; not apply ; proved Pim heavy penalties devolved on those detected in con. .n ..itg.m...., did Mr. ABERCROMBIE alluded to en expression e nd organise them ; and yet, it was I oath at the Old Bailey, I t at the whole amount of , coaling arms. ' those funds was 91. 15%—P liagh.l—That wits And how their Eschetteer„—[,//aegki—Atiother report toe of an Honourable Gentleman (Catoael Marti n ) i n a ira conspiracy at that period he 'remembered, with former debate, re p resen ti ng t h e I r i s h P arliament as ali the i4lditiens of ;rm., paining, eke, did it turn out ? Nine tailors and one pike were dis , covered in a back gartet in Tooley-street,hallooing on the Irish Government against the people iof that country, lie asked, whether that was the in thellie- spirit in which they were thee to legislate 1 also, that l Party in Ireland, during these unfortunate troubles, Lord CASTLEREAGH admitted, that the Loyal rough,--[laughter.]--He recollected, trip : were in a sort of robelligien against the Government such was the eagerness to find plots at that time, that i : itself—by taking forcibly into their own hands what a Magistrate said to him on the occasion,, 6 6 they believed,to he the most prompt and effectual de. lyoung and tender mother ever dwelt with more fond i fence of their own lives and properties. uess upon her first-born child, than we did upon i that pike!---(G.neral laughter:l-11e had been led , to say much more than he intendedcould ; . RAI,I) supported the clause. Mr. SMITH opposed, and Mr. WM. FITZGE. not help expressing his decided objection to the Bill, • framed as it was upon the Report of a Committee i M r , MARTIN ( o f G a l way ) expla i ned. ! where no evidence was permitted to guide their de,l against subjecting themselves to the great responsibi. 111 r. HUTCHINSON warned the Commitee lily of legislating in utter ignorance of the true na. • cision. He would have had every sort of plrole evi. ture of those proceedings which had been laid down deuce : examinations and cross-examinations, full precedent. It had been again asserted by the and substantial proof, before the Government dared Ire - Noble Viscount (Castlereagh) that no tortures, no to suspend the Constitution of the country.— as a ' excesses of any kind had been committed against the [Hear, hear 1--In the worst exigencies of. ;.people of Ireland, previous to the commencement of . land, no such law as the present was proposed. A the rebellion in 1798. He (Mr. Ilutehinson) had la power for disarming the people, indeed, was grant i his place upon a former night denied that assertion, ed, and so was a certain power to Magistrates, ; and he now rose again to give that assertion of the ' but they-were somewhat different. Ile well remetn- Noble Lord's his most .unqualified contradiction. bered the discussions at that period. He well remem. i lie was therefore at complete issue with the Noble bered the foul and unmanly debates in that House, : ' Viscount v and he was prepared to prove by evidence ' when it was a question about searching for arms in the women's bed-chambers, as to how long a woman might be allowed to dress in, before she o p ene d th e I at. their bar, that he was but toe well grounded Inc door for the Officers to search. Some Gentlemen 1 the charges he then mad e . Il e solemnl chared the proposed seven minutes; he, without any great ef., Government of Lord Camd en , of whi y h th e Noble fort of chivalrous feeling ventured to suggest ten mi- ' I Lord was fare considerable pe r i o d th e ostensible part, i nutes—[a laugh]—but the Noble Lord opposite, • ! and for the whole period the con fi dential adviser ; lie ! solemnly charged thatGevernme n t with permitting tor % '• proposed that a reasonable time should be granted, which was at last carried.. That Act, however, 1 hich originated, with his Right lion. Friend (Mr. ore), much to his honour, did not confer any thing I ture throughout Ireland before the re b e lli oe .--." I as , I sert," said Mr. Hutchinson, " th a t un d er th e eyes o f ' that Government, for 2 long years bef or e th e re b e lli on , ' the people of Ireland were suffe r in g un d er every I n , tike the powers upon Magistrates intended to be con- I flictien of outrage that could pad them to resistance, j !erred by the present Bill. No Magistrate had power I to search for arms merely upon suspicion, but u Pen ! I assert, that for two years bef ore thb rebellion,ery the ' - oath; and information was to be transmitted to the Lord - stem of infliction was prosecuted through e very means of torture and outrage, breaki ng o p en o f I Lieutenant, and an authority from him, or from his 1 houses at the dead of night, flogging, pi c k e tti ng , Chief Secretary,was to be granted before theMagist rate. burning, half-hanging, violation of women, depreda , I could act ; thus making the h:xecutive Government re-1 sponsilie. [ffereMr.Sheridanreadone ufthe clauses.] i lion of property, licensed pl un de r , l egu li se d mei , I Good Goo! (continued the Right Hon. Gentleman) I d er _[li ctir , hear !]—ehorrors tlret but to think of compare the two occasions I—Compare the two A cis ! was sufficiently dreadful—to detail, disgusting. To : i —Compare the provocations iu the one country and be conscious that they once happened might - ha v e it, in the other I fie should have thought there was some i use in warning an English House of Commons how j wisdom in the proceedings of Ministers, did there 1 they opened an avenue for the introduction of suck now exist any Perils —hut they came like sea-gulls, calamities. [hear, hear!] They knew not what "screaming when toe storm was over.—Another and a , Ireland had suffered—let them beware how th e y took the first step that was to lead this county to a sufficient remedy had been applied; the disturbances I knowledge of such misery." [Hear, hear!] He were confessedly decreasing, and yet such a measure. again solemnly pledged'himself, If required, to prove as the *sent, which cowjd wily hive Cie e ff ect ofl I at their bar, by undoubted evidence, the truth of all irritating, was to be proposed! Ile hoped he had put the intended clause in such a light as , would- make it ' the assertions he had advanced. [Cries o i f..tfcar, ... impose it should remain. hear n ThrATTORNEY-GENERAL said, he was not The Committee then divided at all surprised at the contusion to which the Right Ayes, 77--Nnes, 18—MnJority, 59. i lion. Gentleman had come, as he totally disbelieved We understood a second divistari took place on the ' the Report of the Committee. Certainly, if that Repo rt was false there could bo, no occasion for ,each a meaaure aswas now proposed, and every per- d epot empowering Magistrates to lodge in a sala the arms so taken— son on thinking with the Right H Ayes, 75—Fors , 16--Majority, Vl. on. Gentleman ; clau se , The Huse then resumed, must come to the same conclusion. It was lucky 'for the Right lion. Geutlem in, however, that he had ordered ,o c he received to-morrowand the Report was Iso local knowledge which justified the Report. He LATE OVERTURES. I Mr. SHERIERN rose to postpone his Motion contained in the contended, however, that the facts h respecting Mr. %min, till Monday; and also to give d Report were such as fully justified the Bill, an_d i e cautioned the House how to give credit to the eu- notice of another for Tuesday, for the production of sion that, because the disturbances were now sus the Correspondence between the Duke of Briscoe end the Noble Lord. Ile approved of the Answer pended, during the Assizes, and while Parliament ;wen to the French Minister, because he thought he was deliberating upon them, that therefore they tiadl tad never read of a morn insidious, perfidious, and ceased. He could state, however, that very recent , , _ , , I insulting proposition .—[ Near, ion.— ear, t* [II !sear! ) He was stir, intelligence had arrived of intimidation having been , used, threatening the lives of persons if they gave I prised that no other Member had taken up the quest evidence were de- i against those who to be tried. Ile , tem be fore. He wished to know if any reply had ' precated the levity with which the subject had been ' been made by the French Government, to the tad= treated by the Right lion. Gentleman. The object of I ewer given by the Noble Lord? I Lord CASTLEREAGH replied in the negative. the clause was to keep the arms of loyal people in safe He was gl ad that the conduct of Government, iq that custody, and prevent the insurgents from getting i -- -'-- ' ' - - - - - - wished , instan. - had met the approbatiou of the Right on. them.. Ile had alluded also to Ireland ; but he iv:, he had read the date of the Act from which he had read some clauses. Was not the date 1810? And was that the period when Ireland was convulsed with outrages ? (flair, hear !] How easily the Right lion. Gentleman believed outrages that did not exist, and disbelieved them when they did exist. [Hear, hear!] In fact, that act which he alluded to had been passed, because all disturbances had ceased in j Ireland, and it was intended to mitigate the provi. sions of the Act of 1797. Ile would ask the Right . Hon. Gent. what had been the Act in force for 13 years before 1810? Mr. SHERIDAN said, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had expressed some satisfaction ;;•gt his ( Nt Sheridan's) luck in having no local knowledge of the facts stated in the Report. Now, in ; ally way, he thought that congratulation unkind, for, if he had such local knowledge, it might remove the error under which War be laboured; mud, be.; ins, ice, • Gentleman. VICE-CHANCELLOR CREATION BILL. Sir SAM U EL ROMILLY,on the question that the Bill be read a first time, expressed his anxiety, even at that late hour, to give his opposition to the . Bill in its first stage. It was a Bill easing the Lord Chan cellor of the greater portion of his duties, and at the same securing to him alll the fees and emoluments in the same manner as if he had discharged those duties. [Hear, hear!] He contended also, that instead of remedying, it would greatly encrease the number of la, and add intolerably to the expence of Mr. Bankes, Mr. Abercrombie, Mr. Wm. Smith, land Mr: Creevey, followed on the same side, strong ty protesting against the indecency of pressing a Bill of each' importance at so late& period in the Session. Creevey added, that he always found twe:ve o'clock at night, in the month of July, the moot , _...... ....—_ -ppareL - - - - - - objections to the clause in enestioii were strorig. it sides, he ought rather to have wished that - he N i r. t seasonable time in the woild for hUrrying a job through went, not only to take arms from the suspected dis- . Sheridan) bad a good stout estate in Yorkshire, in ! the House [a lattgle]; that when Judges were to be *loyal, but from the man who was suspected of timi- which there would have been nothing unfortunate.—! made by jobs the joke became rather serious. Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Bathurst and Mr. Simeon, dity. The Bill was intended to provide against the • [.4 laugh.] The arguments of the Honourable and ! forcible seizure olarms; and yet, what did the law • Learned, G'entletrian, upon the 'expediency of the spoke in support of the Bill. The gallery was then cleared for a division, which, in question propose to do ' To emulate, to copy, . clause, that it went to provide safe custody for the 1 the very crime it condemned.—EHeat !)—lt was em- arms of loyal persons, to prevent them from falling however, did sot take place. The Bill was read a powering its own agents to plunder arms from all into the hands of the insurgents, i t was impossible to. . first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a who had them in ssession. And at what time was say where they would stoß. Government might i second time on Tuesday.—The other Orders of the it so acting .At m om ent when we were told the equally say, we bear the ; ' a ilwrgents are amassing . Day were then disposed of,and the House t4ourned crisis of our &Weirs was such, we ought to be an funds to. support their body; now you have a great . :at half past one. armed nation !—[Hear 9—*Yet, the Government -many pound . notes, and some silver, and silver r trere no w , trying to make us a disarmed nation!--- spoons—we will take all this into our custody, lest FRENCH PAPERS. I. lJear .]—And Where was the cans,? Did the —wiew...... pep- it should fall into worse hands, especially - as you pie, for ebosesake it was pretended the were iegis- hare no arms to defend it. [A laugh.] He knew Nan, Jo.* T.—The arrival of her Majesty the loin, ask it of the Goveanment ? Dhl they grovel, not, indeed, to. what such an argument might not be ' Empress and Queen, is speedily expected at the at the feet of Ministers, did td.y crawl upo n their• applied, when • the first principle of the Constitution ' Palace of St. Cloud. All the household of thi s knees before tlwat,and supplisate le be disarmed ? Did was once violated; by which every MU was Witted august Princess have received orders accordingly, 1 and 4 .. , . expressed it, to go for instance into a msn's ' they say, we are too dastardly to defend ourselves to Woe 2rms to .pottAect.his jiroperty, and every preparation Is made for her reception. orchard. This would naturally attract 11 mob, take from us our arms, for we cannot use them, an d ' The ATTQRNEY-GENMA explained. Bcor.t ts, June 26.—At the departure of the last onsectoentlY expose a man to ell its ravages. beep them in your custody? No '! Ho denied the pro- I . Sir SAMUEL . 11.13141LL1C rose, % mid !pod CASS new a, 'taboos, therefore; ooght to he counter- plo of Ea std were yet to base, were iet so Oa •of 4 .' Ofellikn . loo __ eeill•sho etteadou•Of the Co.- rrettr, upon the Niemen, at the most remote Iron- as far as possible ; the right to search should • grtideill--(Hears • heir; keir n-Ilit denied alb egtiee to the wording . o r the chute ; fp 1440 Litt' tier of Prussia .;4tinlagiss I a, his Majesty the Emperor Napoleon wa* at and about Utelve miles s sto,Otted fp One Mileittet, olono---thot *hi vitro tree any 'moonlit,' so* * * 'the **is 4e all.' " flionibt pee pee such eenialeed ' I from ril oa t attention... -' . . a • . ti- I ,~.;, c~ I ' . , II ... .~. BLr -. 2 ■ ; ' -t; G ~t i `, i I j )1 •