The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-01-10 00:00:00

}`. a r;, A s .1( , . I. .4 . . : 1 1;00„ , ~ • , „ I A. 1. I PI: I • V. , . 1 • '.; I e ~. • • , r I .7 . i i • ; S 1 ~. • • 1.." i l ) ...' t, , b iI . I ‘. )) THE STATESMAN. Chief Secretary for Ireland. A few days after, the same Committee that had been negativold, was pro posed by Ministers, who took to themselve the credit , of what he had suggested. He left it to the House ' `to judge, if he went beyond his duty, in maintaining , he had a right to institute such a Committee. With respect to the Report of the Committee, au error had crept in, which, had it happened in the Irish Portia ment, would have been ascribed to the blundering genius of the nation. A circumstance was stated on the 14th of Joae, which did not take place till the Ist of July. Many Members of the Committee had also•left town when the Report was made. The Hon. Baronet concluded with moving, That the Account presented to the House of the Expenditure of Ireland for the last 20 years, and the Funded Debt of Ire land down to January, 1811, should be referred to a Committee, and a Report be made to the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex pressed a wish that the Account of the Debt should be brought down to the present year. With regard to the Hon. Baronet's remarks upon the appoint ment of a Committee, his fame could not depend upon any circumstance of that kind. The Hon. Baro net had given notice of a motion regarding the re-'I ♦enue of Ireland, 1w (Mr. Perceval) though it would be better if the Resolution should be preceded by inquiry. lie had accordingly moved for inquiry, but the Hon. Baronet wished to take it out of his bands. There was no objection to the Committee last year, and he presumed there could be none at present. lie regretted the absence of the Chairman of that Onnmittee. The principal of the Report had been agreed upon, and a kind of discretionary power Lad been given to the Chairman. Ile should be happy to share with the Right Hon. Gentleman in the glory of the transaction. • Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that he wished the same Members to compose the present Committee, with the exception of the two who had never at tended, and that he wished to substitute the Members for Cork and Glasgow, in the room of Mr. Leslie Foster and Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald, who did not attend. This gave rise to some conversation betwixt the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Sir J. Newport, and ended in the Member for Cork being appointed on the Committee. CHARITABLE DONATIONS. Mr. LOCKHART observed, that he had received many valuable suggestions on this subject, through which he trusted he should be able more eilktually to attain his object. He now intended to omit the penalty at the suit of an informer, and he trusted no person could object to a petition to the Chancellor, rai Master of the Rolls. The amount of the proper ly' thirty y ears ago, was 260,0001. and should now bodouble. The greatest publicity should be given to donations of this nature, which should be•regarded in tho light of public money, and the names of the do nors and of the trustees should be stated in a register, to which there could be no objection, and informa tion given against those who refused. Power should be given to the Chancellor, the Master of the Rolls, and the Barons of the Exchequer, to determine all causes not upon the information of one evidence, but of two or more. He wished to avoid saying any thing harsh of any individual, but many of these in stitutions had been neglected, and, under proper management, might be rendered much more produc tive, and induce others to follow en example so be neficial to the community. The Hon. Gentleman concluded with moving for a register of Charitable Donations, and that meant should be taken to cor rect the abuses that at present might exist respecting them.—Ordered. Mr. FRF.EMANTLE moved for an Account of the Consolidated Fund, and of the income and charges for the years 1810 and 1811, and also for the amount of the new Taxes. This was resisted by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, on the ground that it was the uni form practice of the House to order such a statement to be wade. Some dissuasion ensued, in which the Chan*nor of the Exchequer, Mr. 'Tierney, Mr. Homer, and Mr. Freemantle bore a part, and terminated in Mr. Freemantle giviug notice of a motion for to-morrow upon the subject. HIS MAJESTY'S HEALTH. pr. Secretary RYDER moved for a Select Com mittee to examine the Physicians respecting the state pf his Majesty's Health, and the same who had been Members of the last Committee, with the substitution of the ltight Ilon. Charles Long, in the room of the Right Hon. R. Dundas, now Lord Melville, and of Sir John Nicholls, iu the room of Sir William Scott, were chosen. No Members of the House, unless also Membei a olds* Committee, to be present. ORDERS AND NOTICES. The em4l4loEldiOß of the 1411.CHEQUAll welted, diet She -tarsal' the lst of last Jour should be read, Taal 110 private RIM should be read a first time, after Mon day, the 24th of February. —Ordered. That no Report should be received after the 20th of April pest.—Ordered. That all Orders for Monday and Friday, should be disposed ad before Notices. Mr. WHITBREAD contendetl, that this had a tendency to trench upon the liberty of debate, as last Session the Minister was in the habit of eallirtir for particular Orders ; [hear ! hear aad hr likewise disliked the practice of Notices being formally recognised by the Moose. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER vindicated the practice of last Session, and Contended, that it did not at all precliitie a motion being made without previous notice. With respect to them, the House would act jest as it had done before. There bad been no disposition last Session on the Ministerial side of the Mouse to make any improper use of the new regula tion, and should any new law be attempted to be logtatted, the How would act as the case required. Mr. ABERCROM RI r was far from imputing any improper motives to the Right lion. Gentles an, he only conceived there was an error in Judgment. He must object to recognising the prictice of giving e previous notice, forego.: hear !)%ad also of _pllowing the Minister to call for particular Orders. To avoid a srivial inconvenience, a much greater would, by the present management, be lectured. Sir JOHN NEWPORT was adverse to the mono 'ration proposed by the Right Honourable creatlemen. He had opposed it last Session, and was still of the same opinion, notwithstanding last year's experi ence, so much boasted of on the other aide of the ;louse. Should the Right Honourable Gentleman, therefore, persist in his motion of giving the prece dency to Orders, be should move as an amendment, Oat All Orders should be brought forward in rota tion, exactly as they stood in the Order Book ; that Ministers a/i(Olt net have a preferedee, to the preju dice of other business, often not less interesting to the Public, nor less important than the questions b r qught forward In the At of Ministers. Uy the jib ii9n. Gendepan's proposed arrangement, the WPM more important business, if not patronized by Minis. ters, would, as during last Session, be postponed till a late hour, when the House would neither have in clination nor ability to do justice to the discussion. — He concinded accordingly by moving, That after the words " disposed of," there be inserted f' in exact rotation as they stand in the Order Book." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER op posed the Amendment, as calculated to introduce a very considerable difference in the practice of the House. —[Near, hear! from the Ministerial Benchn, .fidiotzed by loud cries of hear; hear t hear! from the Opposition.] He maintained that it would mete a very considerable deviation from all their format practice, and from the practice of last Session, from which the dispatch of business, he contended, de. rived so much advantage, The consequence of ad hering so closely in rotation would be, that all pab lic business would be necessarily postponed till after the second or third reading of Private contested fills, and a Canal or Inclosure Bill would thus engross thnt time and attention of the House, which ought to be devoted to public business. [Hear, hear !] The effect would be, that the most important business would be put off till three or four in the morning, when •the House would be less capable of entering on discussion. Every Private Bill would thus have the precedency of the Committees of Supply and Ways and Means, to the great prejudice of the publie ser vice. By adopting the Amendment, the greatest in convenience, he contended, would be immediately felt. He trusted, therefore, that the House would see its impropriety, and give it that negative which the public interest required. Mr. I'ONSONBY admitted that there was some weight in what the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated ; but the inconvenience, he apprehended, grew out of the practice introduced by . himself, and there fore was not to be attributed to the Amendment which the Hight Hon. Gentleman's measure rendered necessary. If some inconvenience resulted from the measure proposed by the Amendment, it vas an infe rior one to that arising from the original Motion, if not so modified as the Right Honourable Baronet proposed. The whole, in his mind, was a clear de monstration of the impropriety of departing from the practice and usages of that House, and lie called on them, therefore, to pause before lending their sanction to such a deviation. Lord FO ESTO N K denied the consequences ap prehended from the Amendment by the Right lion. Gentleman. It was only contested that private Bills were admitted on the Order Book ; and there never was an instance, he believed, in which these were carried be and six o'clock. It was singular that the Right Hon. Gentleman should object to the Amendment on the ground of its being an innova tion, when he himself was the author of the innova tion. They bad certainly had the experience of.ane Session, but be denied that no inconvenience had been felt from the Right lion. Gentleman's arrange ment. Re himself had felt it last Session, and was therefore against the original motion, however mo dified. Should the motion, however, be carried, the amendment was in his -opinion necessary, and be should therefore support it, though against the whole of the tacasurst as an annommaryinnovation. House then divided on Amendment.— For it 15 —Against it 58—Majority against the Amendment 43. The original Motion was then adopted without any division. On re-entering the Gallery, We found Mr. C on his legs, with an intention of moving an Amend ment to the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exche quer, " 'net the House do resolve to-morrow into a Committee of Supply." This motion originated in the farther consideration of the Speech addressed to both Houses of Parliament, by the Conamissionersap pointgd to open the Session on the part of the Prince Regent. Mr. CREEVEY took a short review of the finan cial state of the country. The annual taxes, be contended, had declined not less than two millions, while, on the whole, we were five millions worse this year than we were last. In such a situation, new taxes would be inevitably necessary ; but, be fore calling on their Constituents for new exertions, it was surely necessary to shew them an example.— If necessity required such severity towards their Constituents, it was surely proper that they should not be over indulgent to themselves. He complained of the many pensions and sinecure places enjoyed by individuals, without any adequate services to the Public. lie complained still more , therefore, 1 that those emoluments should be enjoyed by Mem bers of that House for no other reason, as appear ed to him, than the vote they were always ready to give to Ministers. It was surely high time to abo lish all such places of emolument as were not neces- I sary to the public service, when they felt the necessityl of imposing new burdens on the country, which the ! people were not able to bear. The necessity of this general reform had been long felt, but they had hi therto shewed no disposition to adopt it. Some Reso lutions of this description they had come to, but these had been so feebly followed up, that they had pro duced no effect. The remedy remained still to beep- , plied, and they should never do any good till they called over those offices one by one, and abolished all such as were unnecessary. Instead of this, however, they only saw new offices and new sinecures created. Not less than three new offices had been added to those already held by Members of that House since they had last separated. He was alarmed by this growing influence ou the part of the Crown, which gradually undermined the independence of the House, and deprived the Public of all hope of a salutary r•- form. Tile new offices introduced into the House, to which he had alluded, were those of Clerk of the Council, Marshal of the Admiralty, and Paymaster of the Widows' Pensions. All these offices were now attached to seats in Parliament. To these he might also add a Master of Chaeeery, an office ha stowed, he conceived, for no other reason than a reward for the political opinions held in that House by the Honourable• and Learned Geo. tleman who now enjoyed it. He might add ahol an office of great emolument lately conferred en Sir John Sinclair, that of Collector, or Cashier it Eir, Ole ) in Scotland, to which np duties that be knew. 4 1 were attached. Did any body believe that thee offices were conferrpci :pr any other reason bah that of Toting with Ministers is that House 11--.4aald thic . daily calmnity ud tlistren to which the peopt, WOO' reduced, was it right or wise to hold out to the pub lic that there still remained one good and never-fail ing trade, that of being a Member of that house who votes with the Minister ?—lt was time to have some regard for their own character, and to convince the public that they laboured without interest or emolu ment for the common good. The nature and emer gency of the times required this sacrifice, and he could not fulfil his duties better, as a Member of I I Parliament, than by directing the attention of the House to this subject. This was the object of his in. tended motion, though he was anxious so to frame it, as not to take the House by surprise. It was time to put an Sod to the present system, otherwise, he feared, that the evil would still increase, till cor ruption, in defiance of all decency and decorum, should be openly acknowledged and avowed. Of those offices to which he had alluded, there was one he felt of the greatest delicacy, and it was with reluetaace that he found himself obliged to advert to it—he meatit that of Colonel M'Mahon, to whose worth and virtues he was ready to bear the moat ample testimonies. He had known him for years, and a more faithful and upright servant, no' Prince could ever boast of. But, however high and distinguished were the merits of this lion. Gentle man, and however highly recommended by his good and amiable qualities, those who advised the Prince to bestow the office of Paymaster of the Widows' 1 Pensions upon him, not only forgot their duty to the public, but injured Mr. M'Mahon himself iu the most sensible part. They gave Trim an office that was , invidious in itself, and that was an outrage to the House, after the repeated declarations and resolutions they had adopted, It was now 29 years ago since a Financial Commission appointed by the House, had declared this office to be a perfect sinecure. The Commissioners of Military Inquiry had, four yeariago, confirmed this opinion, declaring that the place was useless, and that it ought tobe abolished as soon as the patent was out, by which General Fox then held it. In the face, however, of these repeated declara tions—in defiance of these two Commissions, Mini-' sters had advised the Prince still to continue it, and to dispose of it by a new appointment. Why then I should they name Commissioners, and call 011 Gen tlemen to ransack the list of public places, and to I distinguish between those that were necessary and such as were useless, if the Crown was still to be advised, notwithstanding their labours and declare- 1 tions, to persevere in so pernicious a system? It was in vain that that House should labour to correct I the evil, if their eudeavours, instead of being attend ed to by Ministers, were to bo openly and avow edly contemned. That the conduct of Ministers was highly culpable there was no doubt; but how was; he to arraign that conduct, if not by an humble Ad-; dress to the Prince Regent, expressing their disap probation, and praying for an abolition of such ofli-; ces lis added to the public expenditure without con tributing to the service of the country. He, there fore, wished that the House should go into the 1 necessary inquiry, and concluded by moving, as an amendment to the original motion, That the Minus will, to-morrow, in a Committee l of Stapp! ) take into consideration the Places and Sin res held by Members of that House. et i A The SP KEE suggested, that the more regular 1 mode of proceeding would be to move that the Com mittee of Supply be postponed till after the inquiry which was the object of this Motion. He appre hended it was ingotsr to proceed by Amendment. Mr. CREEVEY observed, that last Session he had proposed a similar Amendment with respect to the two Tellers of the Exchequer. He was prevailed on, however, after some conversation, to alter his Motion, and moved, that the Committee of Supply be postponed till to-morrow se'nnight, for the pur pose of taking into consideration the Offices and Emoluments held by Members of that House. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER, on the question being put, observed, that the Hon. Gen tleman had stated that there had been a great acces sion to the Places and Emoluments held by persons that were Members of the House. Did the Hon. Gentleman mean to say, that there were any places illegally held by Members of that liouse ? It was well known, that any officeconferred by the Crown, required a Member to vacate his seat. It therefore remained with his Constituents to determine whether, in such circumstances, he was a fit person to represent them. The Hon. Gent. ought, at least, to have waited till the return of those, but he seemed to think that the circumstance of being a Member of that House ought to disqualify any man from holding an office of state. What would be the result of such a doc trine if adopted, but to exclude those who were best qualified from holding any civil Office ? The in jury the public service must sustain from such a practice was evident. A Barrister who showed the 'greatest 'talents and ability in his profession, would' thus be shut out from all preferment, merely because he had the misfortune to be a Member of that House. The Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to shew 'that any of the offices referred to had been improperly con ferred, or that the persons appointed were not duly qualified from capacity and talent to hold theni. He had in no instance blamed Ministers for an impro per selection; on the contrary, he had allowed to Colonel M'Afiabon all that was his due from his long and faithful services, and in doing so he had done that Hon. Gentleman nothing more than justice.- 1 For himself he tould say, that for the short time be had been acquainted with the Colonel McMahon, all that the Hoo. Gentleman had said of him he felt to be true. Was it then consistent In this Hon. Gentleman to maintain that, however deserving of reward were the services of Mr. M'Mahon, yet it was disgraceful on the part of the Prince, and as outrage on the House, to confer upon him a place which was not more than his merits entitled him to? It would have bee* well if the Hon. Gentleman had inquired into the nature of tbe grant to Colonel M'Mahou before pressing the subject on the House, or at least into the nature of tie office itself. lie would have found that the office never was for life, and was never held by patent, and that Colonel M c Mahon was appoint * *der the same circumstances as General Fox: — The Hon. Gentleman had said, that the appointment was discassfal to The Prince, and lying in the face of the House; bat he could assure that Gentleman that the Howse had never adopted any Resolution that rendered the appointment impracticable or im proper. With due deference, however, to the opi ilia 4 OW c9ll4l4,Sioners 9f 4'0 7 , it had been conatnunicated to Colonel M'Mahon by the Priore previous to his appointment, that he was to 1:o!(1 subject to any arragement that Parliament might aft, 1 . wardsadopt[flear.hear!,fromthelifinisterial and louder cries of hear, hear ! from the Oppositiunl. Men, ho remarked, were possessed of different derstandings, and were therefore susceptible of dif ferent impressions from the same causes ; but he was not sensible of any thing he had said that shoull call forth those loud exclamations. Were it possible that any thing could remove the calumnious re p ro . sentations made by the Hon. Gentleman, what he had now stated oughlfo' have that effect; but th!.se Gentlemen seemed to bo confirmed in the opinio a they had adopted, and were determined to 'oe dea , to every explanation. They ought to look at th, hue of conduct followed by the Housa. The floni,, had resolved that Sinecure Places ought to be alp). lished, but first that sonic (Aker mode of remuner„ ting high and distinguished services should be resot;. ed to. Colonel M'Mahon's merits were readily at'. mined; and so long as this otlice was not 2401islice, Ives there any impropriety in resorting to it for the reward which Colonel M‘Mahon's merits entitled him to? Was there any impropriety in citing him this previous to any ether arrangement by pension or otherwise. The graut of the place didrnot preclude the House from any future resolution respectia k it. He had never witnessed a motion before the House on more futile and nugatory grenuds. Mr. BROUGHAM was by uo means satisfied With this explanation of the Right Hon.Gentleinae. He readily submitted to all that had been said of tha merits of Col..M‘Mahon, though he perhaps had less right to speak in his praise than fahers, having not the honour of being personally acquainted with him. All that he had heard, however, of that Ceti. Homan, fully justified the statements that had now bceu made, but the more deserving the person the greater he conceived was the danger of such appoint. remits. He contended that the House iu no very calm debate had given its sanction to the resolutions of the several Commissioners of Inquiry, though opposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He hers 1 , read the resolution of the House respecting tbeebo. Mien of sinecures, which provides au exception is cases of reward for having held high and erectly* civil offices.—[/leae! hear!]—However respertsSie ' ' Colonel M'Mahon's services, was it possible that Gentlemen should confound the Household of Carl, ton.house with high and effective civil calm It was high Law Officers that were alluded to, and diitia, ' guished Officers of the Army and Navy. It WAN a mere jest to talk of Colonel M'Mahon's having been in the eye of the House in forming t Resolution, unless Ministers pretended to have con, (erred this office upon him as a military man, Cij,:t) he did not.think they would be bold enough to pre!! sume. Conformably to this Resolution of the Hotels all offices were to be abolished that were without employment, and the Report of the Commissioners stated this to be one of this description, and that it ought to be abolished on the expiration of the life ,of the person then holding it. But what did the Ministers do but advise his Royal Highness, not. ! withstanding this declaration to eon nue it by a n new appointment. The Right on. Gtillt lemae, hoer. ever, says, that the place is held subject to any fu. 1 ture arrangement of Parliament. This certainly is a very deep discovery, as if the property c: every man were not held on the same tenure, whether lands, pensions, or places. All offices were held is the same way, and this conduct only showed that M. nisters were aware that they were acting wrong, and in the face of the known declarations of the Hoes; of Commons. Be wished his Ron. Friend had omitted his remarks respecting the (Alice of Master of Chancery, as he felt that he could not so far go along with him. With respect to the Cashier of Exv cisc in Scotland t he observed that Ministers, by be• stowing such places. were throwing new irn:esdiments toe way of that Reform which had beer. the object of the several Commissions of Inquiry, and that they had persevered, notwithstanding the warning wide; he understood they had received. Mr. CHOKER observed, that the Learned Gentle. man had said, that one of the offices adverted to had better been let alone, and in his opinion there was another that would have been also better omitted, he meant that of Clerk of the Council, which was grant ed above twenty-five years ago, and had therefore nothing to do with the present Minister. 'f hg Hon. Glittlemen were, perhaps, not aware that that Ceti* tleman's seat had been vacated in consequence, and that a new writ had been this very day issued. Ile Iconceived the Learned and Honourable Gentleman I had read the Resolutions of the House unfairly, as it admitted the office to be either abolished or rteu lated. Ile saw no harm that could Islet from 'Col: M'Slahon's holding the office till either &bell:died_ o r . ta.gdlated by Parliament, partioidaajt'as "tiOnScr small duties were attached to it, those; he acknowledged they were not great. Mr. CREEVEY explained, Mr. BROUGHAM and Mr. CHOKER mutually explained. Mr. STEPIIEN said, he was not present when the Hon. Gentleman introduced his motion, though, from his explanation, he now learned that he had formed part of the subject of his observations. Ile was cert tainly grateful to him for the merit he allowed him", but thought it would have been only candid to have previously given him some notice of his design. his deprecated the idea, that being a Member of that House should preclude a Gentleman from all pre. ferment in the may of his profession, and observed, that his emoluments might have been much mor.., if he had confined himself to private life. Mr. WHITBREAD began by observing, that the. Hon: Gentleman who had just sat down had dis played rather more warmth than the occasion secetti exactly to demand. Ile agreed, however, with his Honourable Friend (Mr. Brougham) that it had b: en better if the Honourable Mover had adverted to the si tuation of the Master in Chancery earlier, or not at all. No appointment had taken place with more publicity at the time, or had been more before the p iblic : aid if any thine was to be objected to, the proper time for bringing forward such objection would have been at a less recent period than the present. He was happy, however, to admit the great finless of the Hon. Gent. for the station which he filled, and which he was far from regarding as a sinecure. He con ceived, indeed, that the intention of the Iron. Mover was not to censure the appointment, individually, to _s. T ~r 4F