The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-05-02 00:00:00

9 r' ,i T,• ••- ' - ' -, ..... . • certainty, net the aevadey qt punishment, was most likely to deter from the commission of crimes. .If, as the Hon. Gentleman had said, the lawi whet) too severe were not put in force, because indivi. duals then declined to prosecute, was nit that.a reason why Birch lawS should be rootlitical, in or. der' that they might no longer remain a dead let aer The leaning of Juries to the side of mercy • • was another argument for the alteration,' becaUse file mitigation of the excessive severity 9 r the laws was in such 'cases proAticed ioMetimes by what should be deprecated by every Legistature—pei. Jury,* however it may be ranctitied by the mo tires. The lionourabJe G cloth:1)12e haul asked tri. neophently, what punishments were to be resorted to? but if he had reed the Bill, he would h ave 'been enabled t o' s answer that qufaditso by all that appeared an thaface l ef the Biit. He would have seen Ihe'disersdien to 1p glyin to Jtidgextachinge - transportation for solitary rontnemeitt. Ifow. ever sylltir'y confim:ment Might appear 'worse thaU ileatli lw a :person who could he guilty of preme ditated Mines, if, would hay* a gi,od effect 9n the interests or sticiety.' The individual would n ot be lost to fhb' . community; he . weuld come forth froM confinement a lietter min than be enticed It and, as in the ease of !puling - et transportation, the effect of the euitstple of linniihment would pot be lost to the public. He shbuld most heartily, therefere,'lupPort. the motion Of his Honourable land Learned Friend, who; he trusted; would not be diverted 'by any Interruptions from lis-:sareer of humanity he was pursoins . . • Mr. 1). GIDDY begged reave to submit • House the fiat observations that occurred to efek • on this subject. If he felt' any difficulty upon I the measures *en in progress through the 'louse, it would 'arise froth considering a part of that ge neral system whiCh* had been alluded to by the lion. Baronet, and characterized as a career of humanity. Ile was not friendly to any great or violent changes. • It had alw a y s been his practice in 'that Honk, to 'steer a middle course between the conflicting opinions respecting public mew. semi. That - course he was aware was not the way to effect . any thing brilliant, either in that house or out of it; but then he was inclined to prefer what was useful to what was splendid. In the'peges of the lion. and Learned Member, he found it stated, Mkt to the discretion proposed to be'rilloired to Judgei, nature had assigned one limit. • For'his 'own part, if they could be sure, that Juries would be competent to sift and ascertain all' the Circumstances of each case that might be brought before them, so as to be enabled to decide according to its kcal merits, he should feel no ob jection at leaving Juries in possession of full dis. cretion.' But when .it should be considered from what' des'cription of persons Juries were usually chosen, it must be obvious that they would be as Ha ble Oslo)! other body to fall into error. In stating what he felt upon this point, he did not wish to she!. ter himself from any construction which might be pet upon his use of any particular expression. Be was nut afraid to add, therefore, that in his view uf'the * subject a certain degree of' arbitrary dis. cretin!) a a ppeared necessary, absolutely essential, in alt administrations of justice. In admitting this, however, he must also state, that this arbitrary discretion should not be unlimited. If all the difficulties •on this head could be ascer tained, then the Mouse could attain the per fection of human jurisprudence ; and if such perfection was 'desirable it must be obvious that approximations to it must also be desirable. lie thought that in some instances this discretion was carried too - far. If it were adMitted as a prin ciple, that in the case of Crimes of difficult detec. tion, the quiatitity of penishinent or the deterring sanction should be greater, it 'would follow, that in crimes of easier detection the quantity of punish. Ment should be less. It was Ilitt his intention to go into any of the more heinous offences to apply this principle, but confine himself to the more or dinary Offences. Slieer-stealieg,' he thought, very properly punished with death ; because, cdesiddring Ole manner in which sheep were fed uponextbnsive downs, the exposure to deffredation, and the diffi culty of detection, such - a seveie sanctinn•was'ne cessary to preserving the vast quantity, or Whole sonic food and warm raiment for human' use. • It was his opinion too, - that all circumstances of age gravatiou or mitigation should be attended to" in' the apportioning the puniihment ; such; far id-. stance, as the case of actually forcing the tint*, or striking the blow, circumstances at present at.: tended to in Proclamations. Such circumstances would unquestionably have effect in deterring from the commission of crimes tinder such aggravated car. cumstatices. The necessity of allowing.* discre: tion in these cases' flowed (coin the imperfection' of the litiman powers of judgment. But whether the discretion was to be given to the Judge or the Jury, as far as he could form an opinion,, he thought it should be left to the Judge. When the House considered the manner in which the Judges, not Oboe of the present day, but for many years back, were selected from a description of per. sons, against whom no reflection could lie, he was persuaded, that it Would be evident the dis. cretion could no where be better placed. lie would much rather see it lodod in their hands than ,with Juries, uttiess it could be wade subject to definite ildeFs, and juries should be found en lightened enough to discern and decide upon the ' actual merits, upon a comprehensive view of all the circumstances of eaCh case. But though a friend to diserctinn under Om qualifications he had ,stated, tie should never accede to the establishment of unlimite:4 discretion in any quarter. Ile should here enter his protestisgainst the general principle df anY . extensive alteration, at the same time re. serving to himself the right of agreeing tP such parts orthe measures of the Bon. and Learned Member in ivhich he could, consistently with his virus and principles, concur. Ile . sins convinced, that any reformation to be beneficial must be made in the dethll 'amid whilst he entertained that opinion, he must at all times oppose• iny tirge or extensive steps towards 'an object which, his view, was only to be gradually attained: • 'Though he re spected' and admired the 'taws of England, he should never suffer his veneration - for them to in duce him to resist any meaittre, iwhich might be brought forwird fur their actinti improtreinent. gear immemorial beep severely felt by that people. They did nut result merely from the Gnvernmi.nt, lint 'fro certain rights and privileges claimed by awl corporate towns ; and he coul.l not t•et• the impsupriety of Ministers recommending to a Gover.uniatit in their 41liaocc; such a reform a: woule. attach the people to that Government, and insti,re their cooperation against the common ene my ; and as to the necessity of granting now the r atidetional l0Q;Q00!. he saw no other principle on :which to volts the riddle, except that his Majes ly's Ministers, pressed as they were, ' %visited to lave ai Mitch of the public money as 'possible place‘itTheir disposal, in order that they might peOsagPo the Parliament, and avert the discusidon of 'Mario, impoitani subject') POI Pending. General TA RLETON incised, ht Anieodasent, Oat instead of tbo words 400,0001; the win& 300,0001. be Inserted. • • ` • • division then took place, ' ' For the Aniteduient ' • • Ver the civighsal Motion - b 5 Alt*rity - --SO • PRIVATELY STEALING BILL. ' • On the re.achrassiols of StrangerS,'we &nod Sir S. !tool ove roovieg the Order of the Day fel. re ceiving the Report of the Privately Stealing Bill. The Report was then brought up, and the Amend: pints *severally agreed to. On the qtiestion that the. Bill be engrossed, Mr. BERBERT, hoWever, reluctant he was to oppose any ntrastirc brought forward by the null Learned Gentleman, felt himself called upon to resist the passing of 'this or of the two other Bills in progresi through the Rouse. • The object id dole Bills was to render offences, eapitil theft°, no longer So. Is ti friend to the old law, he foetid himself bound to 'resist mph an alteration. Bishles, it was not right that should go forth blic, that that Bills had been passed - in Ise on the groped 'that the criminal law 'Of try was dofectire. All the arguMents of and Learned Gentleman, foended upon the ; that' escaped punishment, 'Would, he was (et!, not avail against censideratieh. If who escaped through' the unwillingness les to prosectite, through their • avarice in • the expence of prosecution, through their to defray • the expence, through the in. of Counsel, or by means of false wit were deducted frora'the aggregate, it would 'he number of 'those tharescaped the ce'r. punishment very considerably: Besides, it uniform principle Of 'the English law, that rents were not inflicted for the satisfaction ice, hut for the prevention of crimes isy the ,ce of 'example. • The Ifon. Gentleman than led to notice the preambles of the acts of VIII. of Philip and Mari,' and of Eliza. aul contended that he 'was borne out by .eatables in asserting; that the acts were the House wet in the habit of paising— ;'or'insiaiiee, 'as ihnie against While Boys, !rto tint down ally Occasional' acts of vita ' Vie offences which they had beer meant tress were committed by 'bodies 'of banditti, Issed from county to county, often in defi the military, and not to be put down by hich, in later times, was considered a pa. :or all purposeS, the posse comitalus. If inislimcnts in use were not to be retained, would the Leirned and Honourable Gentle teek for Others to be substittited for then) ? I lie front Russia introduce the knout, was according to the evidence of those witnessed its infliction, more horrible loath itself? Would he, with Beccaria, re ,end perpetual imiiriseriment iVoutd lie; e lic practice of nailing cars to the pillory 'wild he establish solitary imprisonment—a iption 'of punishment, perhaps, desirable, ti hich a very large' proportion of people in !untOrY Were resolved tcfeinkloy all means to mlished ? Upon the, whole, he wat nut pre-' to alter the law of England, under which id-lived so happily, and which preserved the arty in tliis rich and flietrishing nation with a . loss erlife. He should therefore op. Bills in ceery stage. • ' ' • JOHN NEWPORT, if he could agree the lion.. Gentleman; that the ends of justice la best be 'promoted by the existing laws, ld wifh him vote against the 'Bill before the tie. • But•he • must 'contend that crimes were , effectually preiented by the certainty than seierity• of punishment. The system of cri.; al law in this coitot Cy,. he contended, was most utly, and 'was 'uniformly •so represented in tr oations.. praetice he was ready to it that the Eitglieh criminal law' was tot to Lie)? ; bit the prictitte which thus mitigated its 'ail) , eat a departure from the principle of ayitem, and the strongest - evidence of the esecepily of a reformation. The certainty of a les ' punishment would have more effect in deterring .tom the commisSion of crimes, as the Honourable Member must have often observed in the country 10 which they both belonged, than the terror 'of a greitei,'which might probably never he inflicted. Some yemrs ago air act ' was passed in. to Ake it felony dud death to cut down a tree by or by night. A Gentleman of the highest ink and public spirit, *ho was in the habit of l uting 'much, and was attached to his ,planta ins, persuaded himself, that in the event of de. ring any person destroying his trees, he coolly ve resolution enough to put the act in forgo.. occision soon occurred, and be, who had 'the flutir of that Gentleman's acquaintance, *as it aware of all thoatiziety he suffered, as the :riod of the us s izes approached. lip to the first iy of that assizes, hetet-ger; he appeared to have hii resolution, but then his fortitude failed ail . he de'clared it impossible for him to put the imitty law io force, and could trot reconcile it to any :)tiot) Of justice to. get a fellow-creature hanged or cuttings 41 utsis a tree. If a person of his rank Lou enlightened mited could shrink from putting so severe a 14%iliv force, how much more likely were versos of hiiinbler . rank to decline to prosecute? Offenders would'aiways calculate not only on the chance of their estipes, but upon the common feel lug,. of inankintlochichwintld probably prevent par. ies front taking away iliVtle of a fellow creature a prosecution for so ilispWapertionate an offesee. 1;!1 writers were peed upon the point, that the . , -..~. , ~~ gy p' , - IRK STATESMAN. . 7 7 "1 1 . 1 91F7 . • ted plan for, same Mil w ld as llll o;l l"Y e . l . o ... ot t . rw s u liv a h t e i n el P ip resen sis, an Oh ) . Mr. WINDHAM considered the sy stem pro, to be found, Woretsl lig enable us to do the posed by his lion. Friend, as part of a overterning the criminal jurisprudence of lbp it the eye, country. The observations of Dr. Paley had beeti, long, and eee 4 ry iti o u t n les o r s i :fig a..gun ure erai diffe d r es in c g rip f t r i o o m n a f commented upon, and objections raised . ageitiatiqpight - line. them, for the purpose of introdue)ng this Den - sys. theae i figuires, it.. would bedif fi eult to disti ll' ~o , e .: 7,6 t r a e lln h e i'g' tern. But, mikes the system intended to be tours - otue I , which approideidlo solteral, and did not were such, that the law could be carried helot -to either ; ant yet, when they came before t into execution itivariald'y and inflexibly, the Hon, a peril n;it.e migb i t hem .k7w il t e bera eligh in t :v n i o d w ua t li h y e 4 dif. ,Gentleman had applied his argitmente. in yain.— the sable time he woul d fi nd no*means eas'y at Ihese Gentleman .who stinp6rted such doctri ne,' define tie describe bad already r assuinerl,.thai a system might he esta- ference 7 o a f ri i e n t tl y i . v o id f l. l6 ! ft ; e roetl um ..:s net w .s he ; l . li b e e ir fo 1 htistred without discretion. Therefore, it was a rie 7 from a cosnry con , equence, if a law were to be executed their being thin, n 1 being fat; but how to ray ' without discretion, that it'must be invariable and down the proportion of these qualities icoulrl not I inflexible. One of ° the instan ces. alluded to in be very easy, so as to give definition. So wit.. • h respect support of this subject, was the case of a per. to other animals, t h e same difficulty would exi s t i son killed in a doe'. That was a case not atte m p tin g a defin i tion of them individually. Ho: cruel, tweet's° attended with those circum s t ances would his lion. Friend describe homicide? To be which separated it from the ordinary co urse of de. s ure a distinction might easily be driwn between cisions upon of*ncei of that de s c ri p tion. If the excusable homicide and murder. Every one tie r ., law had been lellexil•le, ciiher that case cou ld not ceived a difference between the act of a man w h o bare been so decided, for the generality o f those killed another for his purse, or way-laid lam through offences were not so punished , or it 'nest have revenge, and that of a m an who accidentally, or ju. been treated with the same lenity •as the others, tifiably took away his fellow-creature's life. But although attended with circumstances completely how would his lion. Friend distinguish in some different. burr, if discretion were set aside, cases of manslaughter, which he called justifiable • supposing this punishment inflicted in that cue to murder I Suppose he (Mr. W.) were asked o , t iv a h t e l . a he right, awn, according to the system of Isis tiler, in the case of two men who had been toge. immediately siances Hoe. Friend, rill others, howe ver different in titer in a public house, and in t h e cour se of their circumstances, must be generalized with it.— conversation had quarrelled, when one of them, This would certainly be generalizing th e cases ; g reatl y provoked, took up the pewter p ,hut 'circumstances being u n a ttended to, jiis: killed the other, would that be m urde r or man. lice, in his opinion, would 'be render e d p a r tial. slaughter ? He could not say; he could not answe r --,--With respect to discretion , it arose out such a que stion without knowiangstihwepetir csi m of the nature of things ; it mIA Irt be an iecon. H e - r emembered an instance; some years ago, where Yeeieece, but it was one mankind mist sub- a maw being provoked in 1 - mit to ; for, unless laws were made so appli- went over the way, and returned with wknife, and cable to every ease, that they *gilt he termed in- then swore, that if any one provoked him as be. variable and inflexible, it would always exist from fore, he would run -the knife into them. They necessity. ' Men might as well - talk of changing quarrelled again, and lie did stab the other in the what was fluid, 'while remaining fluid, into a solid, belly, end his bowels came oat. How would that or turn what was moist into whit was dry, as bind be I Why, he felt at the time, and he knew now down discretion by rules. ' Another instance had what his opinion would have•been ; but, if Ito re. been urged in support of this new system of crimi. collected right, the Jury acquitted him. But th e nal jurisprudence. It bad been .alleged, that in whole of these, and all other cases, must rest epee the case of a man b'eing tried fur stealing forty the circumstances which attended them. 'lithe sys. shillings in the dwelling-house, as the law now, tem of 114nitiqn were ietrodueed, a single 'hair stood, conviction and execution 'followed, becanie might save the offender. A great deal had b een . the man way suspected cif aving committed mgr. seif4 of erectly ; but that', like crimes, could only der. Ac . c,solingly, it was ' arguell, that the punish. 'he/punished according to circumstances ; and his meat of death was inflicted; not beciusc of - the ;Lon. Friend was one of those who intended tii crime for which he was tried, but becaer of suspi. elopport a law being made to punish cruelty.— cion of murder, a Crime for which he was net tried. This Was a kilt' of anomaly in his conduct, for In other cases the punishment was remitted, thoisgh there it was intended there shOuld be nqthing like the law had made it capital, and- therefore this un. definition ; in - deed-it Was a subject'which did not certainty was complained of, and the punishment admit the' leak' definition, but was to affect the was condemned, when it was enforc e d on account ' lower orderrodly, suit be left to arbitrary:decision. of circumstances. In additio n to the cane where His lion. Friona , was therefore at !glance with the punishment was inflicted through a suspicion himself and the doctrine of his present argament. of murder having been perpetrated, they had cited To haye precise de4iiitiori was Overfills'. ; the a no ther, where the same effect resulted, becattec queetion must be still lei to juries, it.wastoposei . the offender had suborned witnesses. Certainly ble to. woe); by machines entirely ; there were there was something in the argument ; it was a machines in tills town tw make pens, and yet they saying, " the last feather breaks the horse's did no operate perfectly . ; It would l!efoot maker/oil pens ; nor could they Mul cau an in.se the back.;" so far it Might bet that the last thing law t which was put on would increase the vete!, but .competentmeehiale. it *Wu teelotseouiesideep. ' no one could say that the herse's back. Irak / dog It any ossuwappWilid Ake Foley hid under. broken by a feather. Circumstances were not taken to defend all the laws of this oosutry, nor the crime, but they streets) ever form a con. did be himself intend to advance any eget" propo. eideration of the crime. Inde ed, it might silicon. Rut he /could again alert, Malts' might he exemplified by one of ' the - most rid'. be Tory well described as they fell under a certain colons instances, where a man runs ewer with specks; hot !ben they came to be individually a halter ; this might be a eircumstance;;not de. considered, 'they might he widely different. They serving or death, but It happened thetas was a might so fat direr., 'that no description would de: horse at the other end. What mischief eieold pos. fine, for often' he common definitions were only sib!) , arise out of the present system of .4ew 1 for founded tspoweotuparison, 'lnd so it might be said the execution might be adopted in particular tie ! ,of is dratiitlo short strsw. w! ii stances, and theadvantage of the terro r in all cases. was i h nduced to b r a. l plan ng or a sof innoesaion th Supposing a man were condemned, the advantage considerably , jealousy. In these times he Pit might extend in two ways, when he was tried kr more-inclitied to. do silo. He did not mesa ally rho crime and condemned fur , the circumstance,. disrespeCt to the name of hie Honourable Friesds But that was a case not likely to happen. If any or that of any !other person. Ile ' knew no question were proposed in that Ilonse, and -he nainea; hot ht understood there mu a society were asked,. whether he was for war or fur peace? established 'for the purpose of doingsway cspital why that was a question he mild not answer, punishnicett. 'lLii observing up subject, he because it depended on circumstances. As to might be thosig consequence of theht infected with thFrench e R principlevokes he war or peace, universally, he mig ht be for ne e . had iMbilsed in e ther ; but ask him as to any particular war . or• tion. inderidlie was full of that Revolution ; fur peace, he would be enabled to give a distinct it . was above them, and beneath them ;it wts answer ; but the difference merely resalted from without them, and within them; mit le d every where his being put in possession of th e circumstances. nround thcm. life could not be recolct, the He really wondered at the arguments which had French entertained these ; r gri ho ns ; there se waof s 'a Mug se. . been alleged by his Honourable Friend, and he day in that country, fo purpo Was considerably surprised how he could misun. away capital punishments; but they began be . pel. *stand the observations Of Mr. Paley. th e ting their King to death. —[df lauglt.lThell had imputed to- that eminent writer, what he perhaps, determined upon that transaction as the never' had meant by any. expression contained finale of - their former' codes of criminal 1 11 1'01' le 'his writings, 'namely, that it was his opinion deuce. He must admit, ilia taW should. not be known. There was a able suspicion of all societies in this ronnith te'sial distinction to be. knowingn Mess's not who attempted innovations and itniabve ments knowing the • taw, and not fliet thtelaw of the laws of,. the land. This system w" hh enttrtaimled consider. syoulil be carried - into execution ;- fur they might intended to overturn that of Dr. Palo • 1 but know' the law,' and yet remain uncertain whether he trusted the Muse would pause before th e y it wriellt . or Would not be carried into execution. permitted is considerably an alteratipe. is Aid in ° this lease , the' execution might be partial, respect to the number of Penal Laws, tha t but the ' terror general ; and it was the terror which circumstance did out' prove their severity, prevented the coMmi4sion-of the crime . The pre- fur, under the present system, the putt bent i d of crime 'was the object of all laws, and meats might be few, as Dr. Johnson welt bilitaidation Wati tlid 'means i; for punishment was observed in Scotland, when some one, to -inflicted only rco ebo purpose of producing intimi. convince him of the cheapness of Age, 14 It th ere dation. His Unnoiirahle and Learned Friend had were so many fora penny ', st diet was 1101 C OO * also observed, shit where thirty men were con. elusive of their being cheap, for thoegh eggs victed of the same Crime,' 'and only three of them might be many, pence might be few? Thu Rigs! I executed, that 'the' law • seal useless as to the Hon. Gentleman concluded by . apologilieg in h twenty-seven. Why, 'he was surprised how a House for taking up so much of their title; but itis man could work himself 'up Iraq sech a c:srif . n. het* been led to state liii. sentiments 0 1 1 e" r ,_ . : sion of argument. Whet, was the terror of the Wiled, bechuse he had formed his opinion in 7 . law nothing ? Did not , the execution Of the Peirce to those who were, (still others, pet"w ili g i : three . intimidate the others, , and thereby _ pre. raost'coripelent to judge of the extrediertei " 1 1 . I A vent the commission of crime? ' The _whole of raeasureOlO Meant the Judges; anitb • be 11 . ioe • this question turned aPtill orle caissideretion; the - Whisfe of them.disapproved of the alters! whether, instead of the system We maw .have, intended hy billion. Friend its the Critn i ' l 4124. . whereby the terror is general, stud the pustiihment of the ran d .111' t hat it sot restricted, from the exercise of titierVilOP 'in the ' Tito meksiqui of the RoLts said, I that execution of the law, another ebuld be adopted, a kidgitile' which wart agreed . to* all biffi l lt 1. where the law could be . execated Invariably and the pitteetitili of critned wee the object of p ° . To accomplish thilfltsbjeit, tehourse niOiadViet li and the'quition only seas, whel F h le° ought to be had to definition', Ism& It 'might be plailieliphied by his . Iton, and .luirnedbabi.iiiiejtil extremely difficult to define, *where the disatrip. (Sirt ittimillyyteould dot be, in ail l PO• 1, - 0 1. time was unavoidably general. Things, When mOrie t tflkacidus fail the attainment :if that o _l.. taken individually, might loc 'distinguished, bet shams *Om szstetn of Criminial !Awe which now _e i x::: o ' g that Would not be describing the species, 'for a if i t were only etinally efficecioes ni,th the el . o eurifig deseriptiiiii of the eveciei, 'which would ble eafti. 4ystem; ',lvry body Telt 'prefer it, .ae pr t it 4). dent lot 'knowing the kind • Wherein it 'Was Um same etjet lay mon; Oa "" re i ba • - • or tutee Diu theft°, no Iti foliod bimse Hisldes, it 1 ittithe publii • t that House • bite edintry • ' 1 the Hon. aro ittimhera tbi perstsaded, all those %el I eir parties t declining th inability to geouity of 1 neves, weri reduce the taint) , of pt 'cas the uni punishment t ' of j ustice, influence o k I Proceeded . , Henry VI bah, and these preat such as tht 11 1 ',ICh t foe , . in Order'" I hence. 'T, to, repress i u t io passe i anee of IL that whict tiacea for • the punts] lettere no , Moan seek Would li - Which %co who hail • than deal korum'citd :rive the . ' Pr Aroul e.scriptil t u t wile • ihis 'vatic get aboti , • pared to we had•l' . . rroperty • s o iMalt •' . - c lose . diet • Sir 3i '‘vitb the • 40uid I • eiuutil 1 It ouse. 'More !fl the Ore • . ' ~ tainal la , litioitiT, i . reign I admit t , . Idotttly pcieril3 ilte Ul IteceSbl' i.‘ - be! pat . from tl ltlembt lo whit greater Some 3 • snake 1 day or varth . . photo tions, le, Coq have r i' Alt or tonot %telt ; • pen o ' tlay u retail ' 'Mail Motif i . . trJtia . for c ' and 1 00501 .1 pert . .01fe. Chi" ir v i lug , . , . • . tots . . ' Itt ' 'bv 3 1 k 1 1 , • • / r':' , • II tc IS A J' 1• a