The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-06-12 00:00:00

IP! ~, ...4 • I. 11!P TI F, ,STSTESNI AN. th opposite party. They hod formedpAddart of an A nation of the lawful Sovereigns. England had, un ministration which had curled on the business of the der the Administration decried by the Nobfe4sord,' country for a long time, end who had, in his opinion, defended the cause Of the Peninsula with Creel; to and he believed iii the opinion of the public, carried herself ; and if it was proper to defend that cause, tri- ; the glory of the (wintry to a higher pitch than it had necessity greet expellees . must have been incurred, • ever been carried before. He eulogised the conduct for great exertions were called fpr. The Ilan. Genf. of the Prince en the present occasion; lamented the' deilarett ttiMt Ito shouldstet iofe taller fur the' At% .deposition which appealed in the Administration td' dr3ses of the Hon. dent.' doe the . Amendment of the d •part in some measure from that wise system. °Ai role, -. two NehleTes, thinking the etterfo...rcoset of Pat which they had long acted with respect to the Roman liament incompatible with the priiimpl es upon which but stated it to be his intention to give tretattetiftertetat Af . fits Off Mire he dlir '4••." them his assistance and support, unielluenced by any not mean to say that he would oppose any Address' privite motive. ' which contained expreshions that to him appeared vANstratt . r adverted to the conduct !unobjectionable. He expressed his entire confluence rf the Sprereign oft a former occedon, when the 1 of the character of Lord Moira, as a man of the Trouse • of COMMOns interfered with his right . to air strictest integrity and most unblemished reputatiop. paint his ,Mittister by ; molting , that they • had a I Mr. TferitE differed in opinion from the 'Hon. right to ad schist Meteety qqn all oceiteions. This Baronet, hi his view of au oligarchy, for he thoughk ltesotutiOn wei,Come to on the 21st 0( Meech, and that if the last proposal of the Noble Lord Moira on the 2,sth.the Xing dl sited,, the raeliaineut, to !hid been accepted, namely, of unrestricted poWee, take the sense of theleoplron the subject, a retie- ' then, indeed, the Coulicill of the State would have lotion which was fully justified by the event. He been surrendered Into the hands of a desperate and could not do better than rend part of an Addresifrom ' hinoxious oligarchy. '[hear, hear!] Ministets were Berkshire, which was voted on that occasion, as it . responsible fOr that power. The lien. Gentleman contained what had always been his sentiments on ; who moved the Address had said nothing' about se that question, sentiments which 'he yet felt no dispo- cret influence; hit' he could not deny that he had Sidon to change. He then proceeded to' read ?art !heard of such influence—it '.had reduced America, of en Address approving of . that conitituticinal right and was now tube for Med hi a Cabinet surrounded • which the Sortweige possesses to choose hiS own Mi- ;by a Cabinet of another description. It - was tin att." and deprecatiog any attempt to trench upon doubtedly . the prerogative of' the CrOten to appoint thiiteight. Stich attempts, if encouraged, would cote. the Ministers, bet was it not the dotted' this Router sort the Government of this country from the best to:; fo nppeal against appointments which were not toe the worst of all Governments—as it would take from the benefit of the State? The present Ministers had us a limited Monarchy, and give us in its place'a ter- twice relinquished their offices, confessing thereby lulent Democracy. their incapacity—they were the relics of the Pitt's Sir THOMAS TURTON lamented those circum- I Administration, the rump of the rump of that Go s'r nces whieh had lAthlield from the service of the I ternment.' With respect to the Address, he did not • country, the great talents of the Right Honourable ekpect 'the Hon. Gentleman would hare thrown cold Liras Grey and Grenville, The Honourable Bare- l water upon his former Address, by moving such an • net maintained that the Prerogative of the Crown I Address as the present. Ile thought the House would would he surrendered into the hands of an oligarchy, relinquish their duty, if they did not follow the lf. the Household Officers were to be placed entirely line prescribed in the original vote. at the disposal of the Ministers. At the same time Mr. JOHNSTONE acid Mr. GRATTAN rose he meant nothing invidious against the characters of. at the same time; the call, for Mr. Grattan was usii the Noble Lords who were the objects of the late versa!, but ,the former &aught the Speaker's eye.— proposals for forming an extended Administration in The lion. Gentleman was anxious to explain his sea conformity with the vote of this House. With re- timents, though happy to hear the eloquence of the wed to the principles upon which an Administra. Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. The Sovereign, he Hop should act at the present crisis, he could no( observed, had a clears acknowledged, and undis. avoid observing, that one of the topics upon which puted right to nominate the Household—that was re- the discussions with those Noble Lords proceeded, cognised from the Revolution downwards, and this ;tamely, the Orders in Council, as a preliminary to he would shew, in utter contradiction to the doctrine the acceptance of office, was of the utmost import. maintained by the Hon. Gent. who had assumed, that' ante. In his opinion, if those Orders were not re- when the Officers of the Household were appointed pealed, this country would in a few months be in a by the Sovereign, the reign of secret in ace began ; ?readful situation—in a situation little short of civil to exist. That was a doctrine which he thought had, • war. As to tha conduct of the Marquis Wellesley, been long exploded, and which none but the most 'there was nothing in that conduct to excite animal- i vulgar would have agaiu broached. The cry was ge t ersiou. Much had belie said of " personal animo. nerally raised by a party, whenever a combinatiou but he believed, that as far as respected the of talents were called in to the service of the Sove communication between the Noble Marquis and the feign. It was so when Lord Bute . was about the we Noble Lords, there was something like a per. Royal Person, and might have had more weight when eotud . indispesition in the two Noble Lords to join it, was recollected that his early palmation with his the Noble Marquis, and at such a moment as the Majesty led to such a supposition. If it ever did press o, he thought personal feelings ought to bare exist, that Nobleman might be charged with .it ; but pocAing to d 0 with public, men. The salvation of i what was the fact? all the letters which he published tacit country should be their first object. He hoped, to the close of his life completely contradicted the thatoetwitkatanding what had passed, the country charge, for he complained of the neglect of the Court, mold still. tore . the services of the Noble Marquis l and wink likely, that he would have been neglected? MA •the gig* Honourable Gcntlerean (Mr. (An- The cry followed the steps of Mr. Pitt and Lord ping). As.to thu measures which might be necessary • Grenville, when they came into power; and those f be per w e(!, if . the war in the Peninsula was to be Ministers knew that it was a mere cry; that it really ,'reed op, ho ells for carrying it forward on au ex- • had no existence—but that it was the cry of those tett , ted scale.. . , who were disappointed of place and of power. - ~ 0115DT ohserved, that when the Address [ flea.', hear!]-Ile would read a list of the various was.eo ed helves one of those' who concurred in Officers of the Household from the Revolution to the mpinioa _a eh the Member for Yorkshire, and on the present rime.—[A laugh.]—la looking over that ; preset* occasion,. ! h en there was . most . assuredly a list, it would be seen, that if matter of complaint great i eensation excited in the country in con s equence , arose as to the influence they possessed, that coin of feet it.became the (louse to exercise the I plaint was seldom if ever followed by a change of the ' transcendent power with , which they were invested Officers, when a new Ministry came into power. In ' .with discretiop. lie bad heard from some Gentle- I commencing with the names he found the Duke of men, that there were es t treme cases when it was ne- I Ormond Lord Chamberlain from 1660 to the Resta- cessary to interpose, between the Crown and the ration in 1688; then the Duke of Devonshire was Government, and by a vote of Parliament . prevent appointed,' and he held the. office till 1707. Passing ' the Government of the Country from being placed over some intermediate appointments, he found, that ju the lauds wholly of the Crown. There could in. 17'24, the Duke of Grafton was appointed, and not, however, be a more inconvenient mode of pro- continued in office till 1757, a period of thirty ceeding, than in the, folloWing, up an extreme case of two years, amidst all those changes and various po the kind alluded to, hy putting a negative on the I litical conflicts which agitated the country, particu- Yreregative of the Crown. It had been said that lady in Sir Robert Walpole's Administee.ien. The this House had come to a vote upon the necessity P office was then considered not to be one in which t for forming an efficient Administration upon an ex- • much of political bias was infused. The Lord Stew toadied scale. 'Undoubtedly they had so done, but • and of the Household, and the Master of the Horse under,what circumstance? a notice of the motion were similarly circumstanced in the Reign of King lied Ow only given the preceding day. ,At that time ! William ; the Master of the Horse was continued j flu opinion was entertained that the delay of a few mi. during the whole of it. He now came to the pre uutesiecomipg to the vote,wpolithaye given a majori.! sent reign, as he did not wish to detain the House ty against the motion. If Gentlemen adverted to what with going through the list, and he found, that in pissed on the game evening shortly after the division, 11761, Lord Talbot was appointed Lord Steward of they must he satisfied that, suc4 would have beef) the j the Household, which office he filled till 1781 ; due fact. If, however, extreme ,cases were to be enter. ' ing that interval, political conflicts were as warm tained,stiso very dictation to the Head of the &tem. as at any period, and as much zee! was shown tire was ineffeet taking the ,whiale, of the Governineut by parties. The Duke of Montague was made Mas- I jnto thtettaiele_of _Parliament, };et the House _would . ter of the Horse from 1784 to 1790. Hut these ap receded, that though *Habra:Wei of the Legislature pointments were acquiesced in teithout complaint, head expressed on opinion upon the subject, the other ; during all the political squabbles which then took branch had net 0.,1 pressed` Amy titdaion at all : they l place, and were not called into question from mo.. had Ito hated their disapptohation s of the Ministry. ! tires of delicacy and a c o nvicti o n that th e o ffi ces Wasthis House then to adopt tho language of con. irere distinct from political considerations.— ! trout ? A Noble Lisrd had put ;he . question on a i What happened in the year 1782 ? At that much better ground ' for discussion than the Mover of period Lord North was compelled to re ti re , an d • the Addrgss, lie deprecated the conduct which i from attention to the Sovereign's feelings the brought before the public the proceedings in the ne. nomination o f o ne M em b er o f t h e old Go ' yere- j gociations for forming an extended Administration, I ment was conceded to the Sovereign—for the ; as highly,„.kiexpedient, .riwron. other occksiens as I Chancellor, Lord Thurlow, was allo w ed to remain t coding to embarras s the , Government . -- [ lre in the Cabinet. The divisions and parties which ar.9- e -Nle was ohe ;swam how those discussions j succeeded the secession of Lord North, at the head of could have been put forth • without infringing the I which were the Marquis of Rockingham and the l oath which some of the parties had taken, as Privsel Earl of Shelburne, made no objection to the selec .Contwillors, which oath of coarse pveclutled them therefore, the Chancellor tion of the Sovereign. If,. from divulging any thing which passed betweett their 1 was thee suffered to remain, delicacy en the present Royal Master amid themselves.—[Ficer, been'!]— occasion might he attended to—at least it was re- 1 The simple question now u:nler consideration . way, qulrel. IVtiat, however, was the conduct of the whether the present Ministers could be safely trusted theitlemen opposite ? Disappointed of the direction to leanege the affairs of the State? And in dealing df the Councils of the State, the proclamationof se, upon that eisestien, the N o ble ,Lord had contended, B re t iiifluence was sounded from a quarter , w"" 1 • 1, if that a yetltilf, this !louse had driven them f rom ( Ali ce - f oun d e d in truth , furnished reflecti on on theSoVe in 1803, .444 therefore they were:not competent to reign himself. If those to whom the commintications manage.tom resources of the country, to carry en were'nuttle for condi% into power possessed in reality tie. ear, and wield the energies of the State in this that love for country for which he (Mr. J.) had given element e r peril and of difficulty. But be would ask them credit; they ' us true patriots, wou ld h ave t'e Noble Lord, whether it Ras not fair to comp are c ep te d o ffi ce , an d have endeavourel to achieve ". for s%.itt Cr•iint ry with other cnentries, which, ever since their country those blessings which they considered the time alluded to, had Ine.o w rested from the demi- were feccetuary. The Hoe, • Gentleman. pvett, pro? -wairosigmairacadinbabilleml • •. .::Lri tiedeseli‘itoeneonfscg.rsea t and , s e e n d ap e u r s sr a h i n o eve a rTh it i ii: that I e • debits. Whoever bed refused cepted of fi ce was initum H i e ce w d a , s cownc,.4, but (Renville 7 : l. n : e h: oh: m at moti ves. ha believed, b y tiol 'Wellesley, that Lord M • • one, that f 0 , • c ' r ' pirt.—[ Bear, hear n To the Hous it t: Mr. Ii;LIAOT would not ' lloase as the questio n . ( " e up th e ti me of re, lay in a very narro w k was ' • c00 1 ,. 1. . istitutional importance. Commons the delibetiti enes en e ve power of approval e.' ' I ; Government belonged ; and to the C m * f l ip el l ' i - berative power of choosing it s Nl' n ' " --•::',, , t House of Cornmoni was reste d the "listcrs. in - Power of net,: living that appointineut of Mildst to support the choice, until,that ers-'-'3f ' iserthin ' ; choicewas 4 Honed by the confidente of the sane:. people .1.1 e . trout of this House Is the very vita l g . • . in -nu ' . prtricgOe cr th 6 ' Constitution. What had passed indierto • entiemen aa e l 7'l jest? A vote had been come . nthese'''. to, stating the . which this House entertained of setae the ueeeese e i making a strong and efficient Administration, : • o imply- big thereby, that the Administration th • orlf: r ig 11:titi.:1 the conic:pence of that vote? did not possess the confidence of Paritti'et power correspond with the wishes of the country li t . tt ' no ; rising the powers of the Government resig n e d The G exec. their situations. A communication was made to t he louse, ie answer to the Address ' fromthe P • mice Regent pressitig his determination to comply with the wee 2 ex. of the country, and the Ministers, that they . "" requested to hold their situations ad interim. 11Ti e7 three weeks elapsed, and nothing further wash:mil', till one of 'those same Ministers came (lowa to tiro - House two days since, and informed P l• ' of Al' iarnmt a .. warn stince'which the House should take care d oes not prove the,death of its character and autho r ity ...._ hear! Hear I]-1V liat was that cir • ' ••• circumstance? 11 , 4, the communication of the fact, that his !loyal Hie"... ness i n answer to the Vote of th e H ouse , calling for a stronger aid more efficirit Administration, had re. turned upon the country the very Administration of which they conipinined !—[Hear, hear!] —The lion. Gentle Man '(Mr. S. Wortley) had stated, and as. sumed various propositions, as arising in the negoci. ation between the Marquis Wellesley and his Noble Friends, which he would pass o v e r , an d a d vert to the' other, and the last negotiation with the Noble Earl Moira, who had eertolnly made a communica tiou which was fit' for serious consideration ; but when his Noble Felends desired to know whether they were to be entrusted with full powers of can. trout over the whole of the State Offices? The Noble Earl expressed his dissent from entering into any . l' is. cussion of that question. If, therefore, they had sacriliced their authority by acceptance of claire, under the terms .offertsl, they world have divested themselves of ell responsibility over . the• State, and have recognised that principle, which, of all nthers, was . most dangerous, namely, - dividing the Court from the Government. [Hear, hear!] The can. concession of the point would have shown the value annexed to the influence—which indueece, in crf junction with another Household allied to the Go vernment, would have formed a most important bar rier against the power of the Constitution. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cartwright) bad denied the fact, but did not Lord Nloi.a carry the minute of the conversation to tee Prince, iu order th4t (helm , pediment in respect to the Household might be re moved. The advisers of the Crown, however, ad. keret] to the, principles they wished to maintain.— The Household remains as it was, and the measures on which his Noble Friends atone could accept oat., were not abandoned ; namely, conciliation •.) the Catholics, and toe repeal of the Orders in Ceuncils On the other point there had been a compromise,for the Ministers completely abjured their trust. Two months ago they declared, that it Was the eeanimons opinion of the Cabinet, that the question of the admission of Catholic Colonels to the rank of Gene rals could not he entertained : they now declare themselves of a differ nit opinion. What would the friends of the Church say to his? Whet would the Judge of the Prerogative Court, the Member for Oxford, say, when he found that those very Minis ters had drunk the dregs of the cup of political humi liation?—[llear . 1 ] —The question fur the House to decide was, whether on these grounds they would suffer a vote to be frustated which they once had come to—recollecting that the authority which passed that vote in those critical times, was an authority emanating from the people ?—[llear, hear !] Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST entered at consi derable length into the defence of the Government, which was the same, he contended, that had already' experienced the confidence of the country ; and the question was, whether the present Ministry ,was to have the support of Parliament, on whether other persons. were to.be appointed ?—And the Right-Ho nourable Gentleman who spoke lest appeared to press the latter alternative, as the only one which could .beadopted by the House. The House, it was true,..had come to a vote (he should • net stop to.ea- I aintra• under .what peculiar circurnatencell, these Address should be presented to the Regent, (Ur a broad .•and extended Administration; but. having once come to that vote, were they never . to be sa tisfied until a different Administration was formed,. but to go on addressing the Executive Power mi lli such . an Administration as they wished wai appointed ?—tle was afraid, -however, that it was impossible to put out of sight all that had passed (though it' was not regularly before Them) in the; wegociations which had rec ently taken place ; an. upon that ground it appeared to him, that the mo tion of the Honourable Gentleman, 'and the Amend meat of the Noble Lord, unjust cast the impute tion that sufficient exertions had not been Made. — As for the Noble Lords who had Inv engaged in the recent negociation, if they had a feeling that any secret influence existed, they had acted as became them in declining office, and he was far from casting any imputation upon them ; but he did no t wider stand that the negociations turned upon the qu estion of the household, as had been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Elliott). but that it was to be left min matter of discretion and euitequent consider'. tion. He hod understood that ill'the high .offices o f the Household were to be conselered as' va cant, and that no feeling of a private nature Was to have ant weight in their dispose I.—[ flee side!] —Such was the nature of thepropmeel a rra nee. \from the Miniskod meat melte understood it, and it did appear to Lira that if-those high o ffi cers were to hammered at ()timid pared to support any Administration having for its !object the good of the State, and he should be in_ I dined to support Lord Moira as Prtmier, and Mr. I Whitbread as Chaneellor of the Exchequer—ru laugh)—for 'lnutile the schemes whiel t had -run y in his head in respect to the formation of au efficient ' Administration, that was one which appearetko him . at feasible, and likely to be ultimately beneficial to 'the country. But it seemed that the Gentlemen ops 1 posite were not fond of coalitions. The question was, whether the House was determined' tti forte them into power and give them the whole rim trout ? He was prepared to admit, that there was a' ' seeming inconsistency in some Gentlemen coming. back to office; but if lie could see any thing better for the country, he would most readily adopt it ; if not he should support the present Administration. He could not think so meanly of them as other Gentle,. ! men. Had not the Government received au accession of strength in my Lord Sidmouth ? Was he not a man of integrity •and of talents, courted by Mr. Pitt, nay even by the " Talents?" What was the : occasion of the difference which the Noble Lord had ; with Mr. Pitt, and which led to the resignation ?-- Why this—that•lie would not, in vulgar language, " .go through thick and thin." He, with Mr, Bond, resisted one of the most flagrant jobs that ever came before Parliament—the cute of the Mkt? of Athol, : and consequently resigned. It was not true that he id...driven from office ignominiously. In that asser t lion he was justified by what a, relation of his had told• him—the late Sir W. Pulteney • to that re spectable man the Noble Lord' had stat ed as his rea -1 tons for quitting office, " that he felt he held office i only with the unreserved confidence of his Sore ; reign % that in this contest he found that Mr. Pitt and 1 hirek'oe were in unison—that. if they should draw i doter together, he could not retain that confidence, ' ! and he found it necestary.to retire in the early stage Of the contest to escape those diffieultiek and evils which were evidently ariiing.7 The' merits of the Noble Lord were recognized, and were never more apparent than in the efficient way in which he got on ' the taxes. In 1806, upon the appointment of the I " Talents," those merits were' fairly and justly ac knowledged. The Administration of the Noble Lord practised self-denial and went out of office in a com mendable manner, which was not to be avoided—[A laugh]. The fact was so, but what was the fact with respect to Mr. Fox and my Lord Grenville? They ; were untried; but when tried; did they quit office with a reputation for abilities as high as before they came into office ?—[Hear, hear !]—Did their expe. ditions to the Dardanelles, to Egypt, and to various parts of the world, justify the expectations which had been previously entertained of them? For him self, the lion. Gentleman disclaimed all party spirit; because, when he found upon any occasion the public voice was against the Ministers, he followed the voice of the public. Nov, as to the measures of the Go vernment, he was one of those who never did approve ' of the Orders in Council. He thought that the af fairs of America presented a critical aspect, but it would he too much to assume, that Government would-not take such measures as would restore the relations of amity with that Power. As to the finan- cial difficulties under which the country labours, he had every reliance upon the abilities and knowledge of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of that depart. ! meat. He saw, however, no means of extrication from the difficulties whicbsurround us by any vote of the kind adopted some days ago. The Honoura ble Gentleman concluded with stating his determine-1 tion to support the Motion for the Address. __ . ! L Mr. GRATTAN, upon the present occasion, did ; I not think it necessary to trouble the House at any great length. The subject was certainly such as re quired a very great exertion of consideration from the Howse. The circumstances of the country were such as demanded every effort that could be made ' for its service, but, at the same time, he could not i blame those who bad restrained that love of power so natural to men, unless they saw that the accept ance of power could lead to effectual service. The refusals of office were indeed very few. Such re fusals did not frequently occur. They were seldom found, and when a man accepted of office in this country, that man should, in his opinion, be cer tain that he was likely to have the confidence of his Sovereign. [Hear, hear, hear 1 If he believed, that after being raised to a public situa teen, he was likely to be tontioulecl in the discharge of duty, it would be much better not to accept it.. [Hear, hcar 1 In this country, the Minister of the Crown should possess the ear both of the Parlia. I Pieta and of the King. Were he to lose his billti enceover the one, his influence over the other would soon vanish. - The Household was only a certain i body of persons appointed for attendance on the So vereign. It imparted no political idea. ,It was sub. ject.*o•oo aunts-eel, et lead from that House. If. I the 'Noble Lord& alluded So .in the course. of the de. bate, thought-it Likely that two Cabinets were to be 1 iw existence, one a Household Cabinet irresponsible,. the other a political one elegged , with responsibility?. he, for one, thought these Noble Lords acted wisely; I its not accepting office under such apprehensions.--. Vicar, hear!] They acted wisely in not accept. nag what they believed they could not manage for 1 1 the good of the country. No man lamented more, 1 than he (lid the disappointment which bad taken place. He lamented it, not merely from motives of friendship for Noble Lords concerned, but from a conskierat ion of the . good measures which might have followed their acceptance of power. The Ho. insurable Member (Mr. Johnstone) who had just set down, mentioned with sonic praise the name of Lord Sidmouth, and from the answer last night given in the House, it appeared that the force of Government was.inst to he exerted against the Catholic claims, but it should be recollected that Lord Sidmouth was the deckled enemy of those claims. That Noble Lord was, as he understood, appointed one of the Secre taries. Thtl claims then of the Catholic's should, in their progress to discussion,• pass through the hands of s person who had always declared himself, and who always was a conscientious enemy , to such claims-. Piled the Noble Lords (Grey and Grenville) been rais ed to power, the consideration of that important sub ject would thertise under the guidance of nun • who .were its decided Mends. • He was desirous that the ---slanted - on that night with as d:.'.,r.le. ~~ much . mildnestrttr possible. - floweret persons might have differed In plAttical sentiment' hi hoped that as little ikelindversiOn_ at; possible vt ' ouldmiugle in. the ) , 1 a 1 ~'' ~~. ~ ~. ~~ 3~ I