The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-04-24 00:00:00

-~- - '; arev . acts, and an altera(iett, of the whole Constitution frOm the first establiihment of the Protestant lieli ion England down to the present tinie. The a Cathol!cs insisted upon full emancipation ; not satisfied to wait for any gradual course, they demanded the instantaneous, sudden, and total repeal of all the acts with which they w ere dissatisfied. In the reigns of Elizabeth and Charles the First, the acts of unifortnity were intended to be perpetual, and in tl.e Act of Union with Scotland, these Acts were again welted, and declared as operative in England, Ireland, and Wales, and the town of Ber: wick upon Tweed. But not only were those de clared fundamental articles in the Union with Scot. land, it was en article in the Union with Ireland, that the English and Irish Church should'be the same forever.' Our . modern philosophers and orators, it *SI true, declared that these ought to be repealed ; but he should look rather to the Acts themselves, and the grounds on which they were formed, than to their opinions. Another circumstance was, that the King was bound to support "the Church, as by law established, 'yet this pledge he was called upon to sacrifice; to what was deluiively called Catholic Emancipation. The Catholics had full religious li berty—they had the same security for their lives and properties, that all other subjects • of tl.is country possessed; and they - were only required to take the same test and oathi—if they agreed to fake them, they could have as much liberty, and as much political . poweri . They bad as much suurity , for their Meitied, as any Subjects ; of any nation on' the face. of the earth. Could it be said that the subjects of. France. and Germany possessed such liberty of actioii, and such security of property ? They debited complete (11107 through. the Empire ; in the army, in' the nati.'und in the State, and that at' the expence and In defiance of the two Acts he_ bad mentioned.. The Mom - must- see that the 'Kim was okliged to swear that ha would in violably maintain the Protestaut religion. Now, if all the securities were demolished, how coulti that oath be maintained ? The measure would not only go against the Coronation Oath, bat against the prin ciples of the union with Scotland and Ireland, and that for the purpose , of gratifying the ambition of those persons who were hostile to the State. lie should presently read a proof, to show that no person could be a true Roman Catholic who did not feel such hostility. It was 'contended that they had a right to religious liberty, yet who were those in whose favour this right was-insisted on?—the most intolerant religious body that ,had ever ap peared on the face of the earth. They were more intolerant than the Mahotnetanta'themseivei. • What was it that established the Isquiaitirboas-Whittiras it that dictated the very last ConstitutiotVeldisised.byl the Cortes in Spain It was Shen ditstolgaad_that the I Catholic religion should .be the taF9T religkop 4 ;taf . the Sthte, and the only one toleii - ted: .rtfY Deems of the Councils were almost matters of faith' With' the followers of this religion.; and in owe of !hose De crees, it was set down that.; when they were weak, roptivcs of policy should .restrain them, but when they were powerful, it was gt their -, Awn discretion to oppress thoie wro diffeted from them in faith. In Ireland, they did not meet With any disturbance to their religious liberty—what tight then bad they to petition for what they enjoyed? lie was so far a friend to religious liberty, when it was not hostile to the state, that he thoeght all the people were enti tled to possess it—but in Ireland it was never denied to - them, • The second groun d . upon which the advo cates of the measure went, was that of the rismbers, wealth, and power of the Catholics of 1: .ai.d. On assertion it ties stated, and no thing bet assertion was adduced in support of it, that there were four millions of Catholics in Ireland, and tharthe Protestants did not amount to one in •ten of this popuia!ion. There was now a Bill in Parliament to which lie was a great friend, which would go to aacariain the real state of the popula tion. But taking Bat present from the beat source, that of the calculation made by the collectors of Jleartb-money, it .would amount to• a number much inferior. In the parishes of Lisburn and Glans it, the most' thantifactaring and populous parts of the whole country,'they would find, taking in children and ell, atilt 'the ealiulaticn was about fire audit , quarter,• What must be the state of it in miserable . l huts? • Upon The whole they would find-reason/fel conclude, OW . the population of the wholtskiugdoorl ditindesceed three millions five hundred thousand. On a calcktlation taken by a !lomat% Catholic Bishop in the year. libt, the population was -estimated at, two millions, one million three hundred and fifty' thousand of which were Roman- Catholics. It was supposed that since that period they could not lease increased to so great a number, especially when they considered the constant migrations from that country were incredible.--In Britain they had not added nOore than eight • millions to the population in the same space of time., For all this mighty show of numbers there was 'lathing. but assertion on the other side, and be hoped that one assertion was as good as another. With respect to their wealth, it was stated at a prodigious rate. The ;entlemen who alluded to it confined their obserra tinus to the personal property alone, and for a very good reason—because they were aware that they had no real property. Ile would venture to say, that of the real property of the kingdom, they did not pos sess one out of forty-nine parts; and as to the com mercial property, they had not a tenth part. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that -this measure carried with it the sense of the Protestants of Ireland., It was true there are many petitions on the table; but he was aware, that applications had been made to several Grand Juries for the purpose, and scouted as soon as they were proposed. Other steps wore then adopted, and petitions were surreptitiously sent about. Those petitions received some counteuance, particu larly from the Gentlemen of the Opposition. One person was threatened, if he did not sign tbe peti tian, that his house and goods would be set, fire to; and every poor Protestant, in a retail business in Dublin, was instantly threatened with the loss of his business, if he did not sign the petition.— Thls petition was kept in a private room in the Coinmercial Coffee Ilouse of Dublin, and if any person demanded to see it, he was asked if he would sign it, and if he answered in tke negative, it was not shewn to him. Besides, the Gentleman who had presented the' Petition had stated, that the sig natures were not iv the 'original hand-writing ) but STATESMAN, en eet ie l i,Th e .. liew there ;lie One most re spectable fieollyln tavOur of it, but one 'voice was of little consequence, and he would contend that not one in a hundred: of the Protestants of Inland would sign such a Petition. There were some Dissenting Ministers belonging to the North of Ireland, who were turned out of their Meeting Hensel and lock ed out for ever for having done so. To attempt to impose such things as the sense of the people of Ire land was a gross deception, which he was confident the Right lion. Gentleman would not have practised, if he had known the quarters from which they came. The Roman Catholics were not above three to two, taking in the lower classes and all : so much for their wealth and numbers, and their numbers was th e strongest point insisted on. Let the House reflect upon this; let them see if in any other country this 'lower orders were called the nation. The Protes tants themselves, he maintained, were able to keep , down rebellion, as they had done in the year 1798,1 The Protestants were in some measure surprised at that period—they knew that something was prepar- " ing, but were not aware that it would break out so soon. Many thousands 'of Protestants were mur dered on that occasion; in cold blood. The defeat of Vinegar Hill, which followed shortly after, was accomplished as independently of the Marquis Corn. wallis, as of any other General remaining in this country. Such was the state of the Tuition, and so the English Ministry seemed to think, for the first ,coarse, they adopted was• to send- the Bockinglainee shire militia, commanded be the Marquis of Buckinee: ham and his Ludy[er laugh] to that part ofthe United • Kingdom. The actions of the Catholics in the army. and navy were mach dwelt upon its pamphlets, but the fact was, that one half, or more; connected with each service from. Ireland were Protestants.. A corn.; man soldier could live better than a labourer, and this was a great inducement to draw them from their hOmes. The Roman Catholics, he would again re- peat, had a better security for their liberties than the, people of ally other contitry e , not excepting France, Germany, or Italy. They were not dragged by the conscription to the chains of a despot, but entered , voluntarily into the service. As to the navy, nothing' but shipping could breed sailors. They called eman e cipation, what he, Would call revolution ; for never, I not even accepting the Revolution of France, was I there a -measure Which would go so cOmpletely to' revolutionise a country. • Their numbers too, might{ be considered in another point of view.' . There were thirteen millions of Protestants in Great Britain, and I could theje e be 'called upon to sacrifice the con.: stitation'of their country to the wishes .of two mil.; lions five hundred thousand of the lowest orders of society ? Even if thelheoretical,opinions of Doctor ;. Paley were adopted, andethe'reajority- allowed to de. cide thteritigiois of the Staie; the Cathblici could noe•eueceed. He entitled- to the sentiments of Dr. Navy and Dr. Milner, and the letter of .Dr. Cepinger to thoDeblin Society, which he characterised as a -mist intolerant production—the former excluding the Catholics from all but Catholic schools, and the }atter prohibiting Catholic servants from attending Protestant prayers in their masters' houses. Ile then i went on and quoted the oath of the Catholic Bishops, l .b which they were sworn to be faithful to St. Peter, I. Holy Church ot-Rome, and the Pope, to defend I Jibe royalty of st. Peter against all men, and to con tribute all in their power to augment and promote his, &minion. The temporary imprisonment of the Pope afforded no reason for neglecting, these circum.; stances. He (Dr. D.) was represented as an ene. -my to theßoman Catholics, but lie never was an ene my to them in any thing except the, possession of political power, which he should always oppose. He next adverted to the oath 'administered to Parish 1 Priests, by which they swore obedience to the Pope, as the Vicar of Jesus Christ. Such, he maintained, were the oaths prescribed by their general councils, and yet they called for Emancipation, or, in other words, for an equal share of political authority. On looking to the decrees of the Lateral Council, which 'Dr. Troy acknowledged, they would' find that sub jects were permitted to dethrone their Prince, if he did not expel heretics from his dominions. In the , thtee following Councils they would find, that the same principles were inculcated, and that oaths to Protestants, as heretics, are nut considered as bind- ' ing. It was observed, that Protestants were never disaffected in Catholic countries ; and the reason 'was, that Protestants were liberal to all. As to the loyalty of the Catholics, he must say, that 'while bound in allegiance to a foreign Prince. heecould only call them peaceable, not loyal. Such a jea lousy did Bonaparte feel towards the Clergy, that be nominated every parish Priest in France; and what reason could be given why the King of this i country should not feet an equal jealousy, and; insist on a similar nomination ?—Persons of the de scription of which he was speaking were more dan gerous in a popular Government like this than under I a despotic Monarchy. The Pope, after all that could I be said, must . possess a great share of temporal power arising out of his spiritual prerogativei. . It had been said, that in the case of marriages they were subject to the law of the land; but Supposing every thief/ else to be granted, would not the Catholics come, piths against that circumstance as an interference, with their religious rights? It was impossibleto se. parate Spiritual from Temporal Power, even in Pa; gap Rome; and a man put in possession of the se crets of another by the confession of the Catholic Church, must have an influence over human conduct which would render their power of great importance. Sir 3. C. HIPPISVEY commenced his speech aji replying to some of the arguments and acsertiest made by Dr. Duigenan, particularly with regard Me the Pontifical Oatn, which he had read to the Howie.. without informing it that Dr. Troy had-conceded the point of the temporal Supremacy of the Pope, in by pastoral letter of 1799. The ,Hon. Bart. •weesef opinion thatthe House should resolve itself Milk I Committee merely for - the purpose of arrangiserthe, future proceedings; but that the more tedious tbeigl important examination of the oral and •documestary evidence which it would be necessary to idduce should be referred to a Sete , Commite tended that the Pontifical! had been Modified try the Empress Catharine anion% words, " - were omitted, sad.. meg ordiee,' had been it had afterwards • 1. ~..:,~_~ to the Sovereignty of Great Britain ' duty by which the his as much as possible to secure union at home. Jam deposed—" all this I swea r as not being con- Could he wish to promote a measure which appeared trary to the allegiance I owetotheKi ng o f Great Bri- to hi m t o sow t h e see d s o f new contests and rivalry, twin. —At the Council of Lateren 70eanons, two of which would secure nothing but tumult le theeoinset s doctrine,nnd the remainder of disciplinewere proposed, and intrigues in the conclusion ?—{Keay, hear !j. but they were never formally decreed, as was necessary Ile was desirous to view thiS question by the lig ht to their validity, as the only o bj ec t o f th e the n P o p e w hi c h hi story a ff or d e d , and the , ; assisted, he could (one of the • most arbitrary that ever occupied the anticipate the future from the eeperience of•the past. Papal chair) Was merely to obtain a supply for his Whenever this argument was em p loyed, G r merm e n revenue. The discipline enjoined by the C o uncil of o n th e o th er s id e exc l a i me d that times were c h ang ed Trent had never been received. That the canons of but were they so much altered ' that the path hither. lateren had never been decreed' was evident from to pursued would afford us no ri rs o f j (Lel of the authority of Matthew Paris , and Gregory the the rend that yet remained uetrO en dden? Was -tl- this i a rlth. The speech which the Right Ron. Gentleman period for acts that were doubtfel, or changes that (Dr.:Duigenan) had this night delivered, sus much were stidden2—Was this a taste for tampering with mere moderate than any of his preceding attacks'up- I the crucible ' and for iiiseteio ingredients which per. on the Catholics, and mach more temperate than se- ' haps would explode and &ahoy the work wiecit it venal of his pamphlets, hi some of which be had not I had cost such labour to accomp lish ?Ie was said that scrupled to assert, " That the whole of the Itomanists the Catholi c s were numerous —if so, it only rendered at one time entered into a conspiracy with the French, It s less.proper le censply with their request , since what !directing to overthrow the Government of the mien- l it was da ngerous t o conce d e to a small body, it wee , try.l , At another time, he. had maintained, "That i doubly dangerous t o gran t to a laree community.— I every Catholic was in his conscience a traitor;" 'sad '' The supporters of these claims se eme d t o b e bli n d that - " every Catholic Priest was an a nent of. Sata n) to th e precipice, to the. bri n k o f w hi c h they weier and an astray from hell." fast hurry ing. ' It was bec ause h e va l ue d an d se- Dr. DWG ENAN expressed his dissent. . e l 'peeled the Irish—it was b ecause th ey c h e e r f ulli Sir J. C. lIIPPISLEY was happy that the Right J .bled for the general cause, and perhaps had (wee Hon. Gentleman appeared to repent his inteMperatel now gathered' immortal laurels on the p!ains t f effusions, but certain it was, that on purchasing the : Badajos, that he wished to avert from t ..n t h e wont;. the lion. Baronet was informed by the Book.: !*Calamities which he was convinced Penaeelreee eetles,"4lrat Dr.kpuigetian wee the-many- of it. Af.. i .would eletep.4-{lLrre, taw, 1r0gr14,44.. OA ' ter some further remarks upon the difference of lan- I • not wonder that ILL ( gentlemen who advocated th e guage employed slow and heretofore, the lionoara- cause of thiCatholics, expressed peculiar pity cur i ble Baronet proceeded at some length on the untie- ; the repeated defeats they had experieneed; since the I rities of Le hope, St. Austin, and other eectesiasti- i dieappointments . the Gentlemen 113 d themselves Weis cal writers, to prove that the Popish doctrine of Ex- . lendured; no doubt created in their mindsn poignant . elusive Salvation had been misconceived bkmany, awl evinpetlty. lie begged the HO{IIKI in general, how. misrepresented by others ; according to professors of ever, pot to allow itself to be hui•Aed array by Warm divinity of the first celebrity, those were not e xc l u d- des cr iptio n s o f m isf or t unes wh'lcia had no . existence ! ti ed from salvation, who from ignorance were tiab:e to but in assertion, 'end to re Sect Sec upon the consequences make their election. Ile quoted several public arts that must inevitably ensue, if thedisabilitice were re. of the See of Rome,' to stiew that among Catholics moved. The Roman Catholics Were. nose •a . p ar ty. from very early times it had been held an abominable' withput power ; ..they would then - be. iseParty wins crime to assert that Princes could be deposed or mur- i power ' 'and what fatal concessions might, they not dered by their subjects. With regard to the much employ that poWer.at some distant period to extort ? disputed point of the veto, he feared that ho should .- [Hear, hear !j It was not the Mess, the convoce s ! disappoint manyzealousfriends of emancipation by as- tion of Ang elis or. the Worship of the Virgin to serting that it. ought not to be insisted upon, because , , which he o bjected; he revered them fur their anti;jui• it had at former periods been abandoned, and that •ty, but he dreaded the artifices of those nho practised i unless the point were resigned, it would not be fit that them. It had been said that the Catholics in Great the disabilities should be removed. Ile entered into Britain ought to be placed on the same footing as the Is long detail of historical facts to establish his asset- ' Catholics elsewhere, but the difference between the ; lion, contending that even in 1799, a willingness had ! Constitution of this country 'and that of other ma 'been expressed to concede to the King this contested ' tions was never contemplated. Tile Remishßeligion poweri and cited the works and opinions of several ; might be tolerated, and even rendered , advantageous ' Catholic dignitaries, among whom was the Bishop of t in absolute Monarchies, but it would always ;el .bee- Castlehae. In Spain itself, during the reign of Charles gerous to, and ofteu.subversive of every•othersvetsen .111. in 1761, the King had declared, and the declare- of Government, more particularly or the - free Cenci don accepted by the Church, that he would allow 1 tution of this kingdom which hadsuloisted.so long by no person to be appointed to a vacant See, unless he the exclusion,of Popery. It bad grown intoa proverb, had been previously approved by the Court. Even !that fire was a good servant but. a bad master ; and ' Dr. Daigenan himself, in 1793, had avowed, that if ! when once the Catholics obtained the ascendancy, its the Roman Catholics would make oath that they I teeth might be established. Ile. did not •wish that would concede it as a tenet of their faith, he would , they should be degraded, hut he was anxious that ee believe them. The Honourable Baronet afterwards should be secure. The •Honourable Gentleman. was took notice, in terms of dissatisfaction, of the ' aware that it Was asserted by the friends of Catholic conduct of Doctor Milner, who, by his imprudent i ' Emancletinas.jtwes .a nelled z ite t , _pr zeal) bad again opened -- the wetindi erroneoutlyThililiciPles vilita were soppoT4tpeenrere 1 iconduct imagining that the British Government was endea- : of the Catholics had boon. disclaimed. by them, • In Touring to over-reach the Catholics, notwithstand; 1 I doing so, however, he wa,s4Sepinier the Rorattn•Ga. ing they had stated in a Synod assembled for the i tholice disclaime,d Oct mufti,' t 'They 'Jul pot 'deny purpose, that the denial of the right of Veto to the i merely, that such prineiptes pranaximndid.not new King, was at that time inexpedient. Even down to exist but:they denied tbaLthey ever had exited. He 1810, the resolution of 1799 had not been rescind. was r'epailto allow, that. the charges : agaiust Jim ed. A Paper published on the very morning of thii i ternan Catholics had come to us in an exaggerated debate ( Morning Post) contained some remarks estatete— • . . which it was necessary to notice, because they were t. fume truths there were, thetteh dm-h'sl and mis'd oitheies, founded in injustice and falsehood, and was a con- 66 To &see the teen'', end puzzle all the wi-r." .., • _ ' tinuation of a series of similar productions. The !•But he was deterred, however much he might beee Catholic Committee was here charged with intolerant I been Inclined to favour their application, from at all behaviour, and with circulating reprinted copies . of entertaining It, in consequence of their r e jecti on. o f ' Ward's Errata, the most infamous work ever pub- 'the Veto. He could not conceive on sibi . t prinCipla fished.. The lion.: Baronet warmly viudicated the ° the Roman Catholics held that a'refitsal, on the part Catholic Committee from both these aspersions, prov. I of the Government' of this country, to allow as a ing that the book alluded to Wei brougtit out - by the ; matter of right, the interference of any, 'foreig n bookseller, who owned it; merely for his own pri. I power or authority , in th e c hoice of the cle rgy of a sate emoluraent,.anal that Dr. Troy had freely join. : church recognized by the Government of this country, ed in the censure of an act so improper at the present 1 could be esteemed an usurpation by the members rf i period. The remarks introduced into the same pub- that church. The Hon. Gentleman then adverted to licatioe, regardin 46 the lamentable situation of the the question of Security. In no circumstances er two Universities, ' deserved equal reprobation, at. I times, according to his opinion of thee ;natter, could though it was true that the Petition presented to the : complete freedom be granted to the Roman Cacho ; ether House of Parliament on Tuesday, had been ' lies, without some satisfactory security ! So far, hurried through with a dignity little becoming the ' however, was any such security from being offered, dignity of the scholastic institution from whence it that it seemed to be expected, that this country had been issued. Upon the whole, after the most I should pledge itself to Catholic Emancipation , with. serious and painful enquiry, all that the Hon..Baro., out hearing any of the terms on which it was asked. net. could concede was, that he was willing the ;It would be a strange bargain, indeed, where a. per ' Catholics of Ireland should be placed on a footing : son was stipulating to take money. of nn Weiler equal to that which they held in any Catholic State. i standard, that he should be compelled to allow the Ile appealed to the English history, commenting person from whom he was fo receive the deterioratds with William I.- and terminating with James 11. to i prove that no such dangers were to be dreaded, as 6z the ra th t e l e of wa d s i9C a ou t n i.m t. 6 T to t e e n fr i. i l e H i gl ith: l e id f the m o ney , Catholics to 6 , many persons apprehended, and terminated a speech : might have this, .Pledge, I but that the tinte was pea'_ 1 of much research, by impressing upon the House the ' I necessity of acceding to the motion, to which (de- What, he asked, was there a sort of contpouiul I interest running on this Bill, so that it. could r mending only investigation) he did not think even :never be discharged iu full ? Ile wished to 544. i the Hon. Member for Yorkshire could object. • 'the terms on which it was expected that theclaimse l f Dr. DUIGENAN explained, denying that he was t the Catholics should be granted, examined before the soaker of several of the passages quoted by the' they were acceded to. The Gentlemen oppesite, he hoped would agree with him in thinking, that. it last p. . i 9 hlr. W. BANKES observed, that after the discus- was better that the fundamental principle should be sion of this subject during ma n y-years, the question i first settled, rather than that the House should go oe, had now been reduced to a very harrow compass • 1 and then find the hopes of those for whom thief the supporters of the Catholic claims had at lengt h I were interfering dis a P° inted. If this meneere should full abandoned their defenceless outworks, and had ree should, however, be a d opted, and i t r tired to their last citadel, there to make a desperate Ito be prejudicial, he hoped it would not be urn. hand. The bested, declamations on the &ring in.. that this had been done by the h sense of the fseop.e p .-_-- Islisteocy of, the rights of citizens and the rights He knew the House should , e • ar of a cry o f No oi i, had coiled down into . something like pm I Had Gentlemen opposite never used any sr, a • • • • • I lied they e never plain agates/ht., - and the simple . point now to cry acted on the.. passions of this • • could say "las this—if the EnsVss t be decided war, whether it was fit that , the people ? All . restrictions epos-the ItomanTitthollts should . b4 re- ' peasant doubted - of something under the ila Me et No inoved , ?. Mach-had - been said 'of the; insecurity of the Popery, 'of which he Knew nothing, the Irish p,--1.. realm it the tlaimewerxemtet eincieded; we were re- sant asked for something, under the name of Eina.... rolinimrof she million# thotAould enlist under our cipation; Of which it knew as little. tit- - batmen if the ilisabilitiei nt Wire - ed,, and a se- Lord BINNING conceived the question no w . ... , -ed thee - astiiii the sign of 't' - - •,, cal- fare the Houslgo ut te within a narrow compass,, be. • ~ ti-thattiiie ear A. - - • - 73 was ad. Th at, now a question of qXpedieney. ,. ,_ nOw Tried on the part of the: Etn . hun Cliq , li•.: • was admitted, could notbe iisifted,,onte.ss It • be shewu, that the professions eetertalnerl,hr were dangerous to the country, or to the _Cons q• He was happy to hear this dnetrine re. . readily by his Right Honotnable Priced. ~_.. ~. t would -be necessary to iddlice 1 banners if the disabilities wire removed,, and a se- /Jona 1 to a Select Committee. -Re con- 1 coed time tinder the sign of "the Ziess* we were cal- fare the l rotifical _Oath, so much objected to, led *pea tat•iblatireeotri 441E47110C* It, indeed, this ing, as wi 1 fly the Pope, en the demand of "were a dined diffienfty and tinker, was ft fit that claims no arine of• Russia, when the- "off- we *grafi Isesysf- oiaT main:plankii to vibrate in the lics, it wa Heretical persequar et opugitek," Man% ler engtd.amt - ridanurrafrje smart tp be:isnown,. could be 1. the clause - commeiciug "SA and.to.stanalgas Oa . t, xhilfia tlvg.seggpes i fs sib( fate at- them were been introduced. An'ad ) ition sidle& dur s . Verls 2 4 ...vailocAlkui r*:sop,thet stitution, ;- been made applicabl e eapiessti : berisktedilielatidnibrolibied ; Ficfiel'hoilshtlf celred at .• • _ .. • . . • . . . ~ -I • .1 I II °l'