The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1808-02-25 00:00:00

for any gaviftis expense anti ti aid, in order cc.tual. execution. having discovered tbl i t i l the Peti led, it was withdrawn to remedy afterward% presented iu a rectified %lAD be laid upon the table. AR. AND M9I.AMONN. , pow of the ExtilliQUaa said be ! ,td his intention of submitting a mil e upon this subjc:A, and he thought but little argument. to ;mince the to what he was ,*bout to propose. which he bad received from venous he had had with West India Plant men engaged in the West India him formerly to propose to the intment of a Committee .to inquire ty of using Sugar and Molasses in he purpose of consuming the large tides brought lute the home mar t which that Committee had retern a so favourable to the practicability st that kind, as had been expected red. in the trade'; but it was still 'd, that means might he found out, quiry, of adopting some measure of , material to relieve the West India thought another Cotutoittee might order to inquire how far it might R,iir,trodnce the use .of Sugar and !glories,. in the United Kiugdous, art thereof. These were Elie objects ttration of the Committee might ; but it was not his wish to confine iquiriee aloes, so they might also peosibility °finding out any other I relief to the Wee. India Merchants. pourable.elent/egian then moved, gifts! be 44i*. bow hyoid iheesysebre-e mid expedi • Menlaide sr Ceilot ale V4v7 or ter the see glop& Nod ea sy ; WI cat aredive tediefivelvele ego*. • Deleside, sme le report *sir ',Woo looss , • • below speed to, a Committee was lirointild, trod it was alto ordered, that Leport of the Committee upon this I before the one now uoinitiatod. :An INDIA, COMPANY. soot, , in the absence of a.ltight Hong • Deutias), who was absent, by his the yard of Coidroul, rose to give . Doiades) should postpone his the Company, front to.. (*lay neut. It wes iete t io:i then e-oppointment of a Covenantee to in , p4d.ovx of said Company. )RDEILI IN COITNCIL. or ---'g its pursuance of the notice I it is my intention to move, that told vesoire. itself iuto a Committee' louse ' for the cousiderattia of trait I ; and iu dent; so, I may premise, we every disposition to accede to any provided gain the tin so doing, =lately, that of having in Couocit disensited In such a the House into their reit! object, and ligtinct resolution tither of approval or of *eat measures. .1 may say with 'ere are few instances that can be ad papenve such importance have been e House by His 'Majesty's commands, ttt express my surprise that Ministeca tialelves called for the opinion of the olog diem, ima manner better adapt driledevation, and more suited to the f the subject of them. His Majesty's not is general:Asian adisposition to ny ~ .ertireation of documents or pro neh His IdeJesty's Speech has alluded. towever, the conduct of the present n. appear* to have been entirely dif • papers have been, laid before the eis step has ever been *.ken upon that of referring thenti ,to a Corn -70 and. Al r ann, which I deny was the of ,diaposing of them; for there no I 10c put, but as it 'related to the granted' to His Ivlejeety, and the tins 'for raisin ;; th at pply. That ould come to no resolution at to the sued by the enemy, which it has rendered these orders necessary; nor er grounds judge of the necessity of he effect likely to ensue by carrying ecution. The expiring laws, it has a discrowed inn Committee of Ways oto ithstanilio% niany of them related these were tiintfris of no difficulty they might on well be discus in any other we .• It was found, be exceedingly inconvenient ; and a Committee of Trade has been iebly appointed for such measures that subject. I must own, that with e I have bestowed upon the subject, I n.e case where s matter of treat meg nportenee has not been uniformly re me particular Committee. A select as appointed to consider the subject- Pill for etTeding • Treaty of Amity. Navigation nth America, and such e of procing too in respect to the mita for e restriction upon the last was referred to a Secret Com isider %Outwits bed to be done, in so e.:ted the gineMi tlitdeof tbecountry. mesons other eases where the uniform reosss refer matters to diflbstnt Cots -▪ t hose of Ways and Mans. I aching this for the sake of throw ing enb In the ,way of Miniaterr, or of y ; knit I do declare, upon my honour, re this subject to be one of istal iinpor- y to the interest,lnit Nth, Ye) y y. With all due pinecaty of Itel.rt it !do potjhormigiqy iii ientand the rtege of died ase.mAttss, cai formai what can be the ultimate erect of their execution. We have:Alone of us 11 . 1I 0 denotoo0with accuracy ,what *Le itut *kiwi-1)0A law: - ica sure In ray,. in s hit, j spe d' tai taneav of natty &Nitta ate.: Wf tnav adaiit OA:the King has the ;,pottrer of issuing melt orders, that the ,etiesny'i.condect merits retaliation, arol that they are culisistent with what may be deeined the tonna practice of nations. Be it so ; but what l'irairt itcj know ,what may be the effect likely to be prodneed upon the trade and commerce of this conatry (the %tidy Bray upon which we have to rely) if thes e 113 ICriun council are permitted to be eit,e.hited India tiory.puritsecl ? This, I smut:tat, Sir, iiiindt+dthe greateNt qura tira that ever eas agitated in a British theta of Parliament., Lem not pressing tor a Committee of Trade upon any Particular branch of manufacture ; nor ens I calling for a Committee to consider the propriety of. trading with any particular colony; but I sin ceiling far . a Committee upon a question that involves the trade; I may sax, of the whole world, and with that trade, perhaps, the very exist ence of England. Then, Sir, is it too much to ask that we should puritue the course that has been ge u eralSy pu l sated, sod discus's those measures with prudence and discretion ? We have advantages in questions relating to trade, which no other nation has. We have a body of literal:lots, engaged in the most extensive commercial concerns, men of probity, judgment, mid experience, and more nu merous thau in any other nation noon the face of the earth. on whom we may call for information.— le it not ant rev, then, that upon a question so im portant, we have, in the teeth of all precedent and former practice ;, shut ourselves out limp that only mode of obtaining accurate information as to the real tendency of these Orden'. One of tity great Objects for going itdo a Committee of Trade upon them, is, to obtain the opiniou of merchants upon their real object and tendency. Many of them, it may be said, are members of this Rouse ; but it must be . allowed that they. not 'being in the habit of stating their sentiments in public, may feel a timidity in doing so. We intuit therefore not only look to them, bat to the eminnercial body at large, for the info:mutest) I want, and which I nip I tun entitled to. tVlimi she situation of the West India settlemetits becomes perilous, why does the Right lion. Gentlenirm more in refer the intiojeet to a select Committee? Is it not for the purpsete of procuring that infortaution which can be derivcal from venous sources ? Undoubtedly it ie : And are say questions such cta these to lie comp:radial the question of trade upon which we are now going to decide ? I wish to know ton, upon what information tliuisters have already acted iu regard to it ? I wish to know whether the Right Him. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) has • ' already considered the policy of the measures he has adopted ? With all his abilities, I qui - ratio° very much if it would be safe to trust to hie *lie , cattalos* in regard to trade. It is suck a question es our ancestors thought iacititibent moon thent to submit to a Committ e e. We are now called upon .40 «sorest to a Bill, of which we ha *e - as .Yet re ceived no information, nor do we know the grounds open which we are to pass it. Sewer, that the other House finding themselves equally ignorant upon the sab jest, should call for a conference with this House, what can we say to their tratelehips ? We can Ray nothiag further, than that to His Ma jesty is Council these orders appeared to ht right, mid therefere we adopted them, without knowing any thing of the source of inforsaatinu upon which sbey hold originally been adopted. Perhaps the Right Honourable Gentleman may say, that by SO emission tie was nut aware of the neces,ity of going into another Ceininittee, in order to procure that information which, in. past time*, the House deemed so necessary. If so, I may mention to him, that it is not yet too late to procure that information, as there Is another Bill, for a similar purpose, to trafend to Ireland, which is about to be brciiight in. Let we suspend the one till the other bits belen so discussed. .If he will not consent to do this, all I can sky is. that I do adoalre the boldness of the Right Hintortrable Gentleman. A more bold wilidtal attempt never yet was made, than that, the' piinent .Adininistra ties should take it apart &eulogies to call upon the Hone to effett a uskarlisiof ate' extreme and vital importdrice, Withobt'producini any evidence whatever. 'Are we thus to givema votes upon a blind confidence in their commercial ? If they tiiris oat to lie in the wrong, it will lie but little satisfaction to its to call upon them for their responsibility, when the last hope of the emitury may he stopped mid ruined for ever. flare Minis ters looked to circumstances, should their mea sure fail ? Dore the Itight Honourable Gentleman opposite know of aay resource by which, upon a total failure, he can restore matters to their former state ? The effects of the measure must be great and important, either in one point of view or of another. He thinks they will be such as to com pel the enemy to make peace, and to preserve -that pmce.. .Suppose that to be really the rase, where then would be the harm of spewing upon what grounds he formed hie information and judg meot of its effects? But suppose that lie should find himself ultimately its the wrong, I ask him what he will hire to say the himself, not for having proposed such a measure, but for having withheld from the Hens, an opportunity of thoroughly sift ing the grounds upon which it onght to hare been entertaiued ? r appriliencl . tliat he has had 'many coratounieatinns with. commeteial men upon the subject of this Bill before lie brought it into the Muse ; and if so, why does he favour ers with that information lie was of opittion, that the measure waled for execution, and.,,that no delay should occur ; tont he was mot aware, that by his mode a d prossedons difficulties woodsl preao upon hies at wary Rapp. Would it he de ' grading Ministers tea mach, for theta to admit that they were wrong, anti :Alma they wished to retrieve, by doing that which is light ? I do ri all sincerity et inuPurge this motion, as I believe-it to lie ono! siteolutely. necessary for the inters . and safety of the Fouotry„. la a crisis tike the present, it is not Wilt:tent for us that His Ma jesty's blinkers have advised the Kintoexereive his prerogative; for however well meant that advice May Wave bt4ts'io..the outset, we rnn,:t look to the eonsegoencesolribleilme. We. should mak,. the people firattbat ste ari olive to dmir intereats.— We have had Petitions lately prevailed. $s -'the Hoare, twaYint fbi 'Vence, - else of"Whicitios been' s'quecl by co less then 30,000 people, couched in raiser:tint terms, and thereihe entitled to coneider ltion: r thitak that the language of the Right filonottrable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Canning) uPoli theteccavion wss,that although nothing could be done etas that Petition, it never oaght to be out of the minds of His Majesty's Ministers. It is a subject, *deed, that never taught to be out of the mind of this House, that 30,000 men find them selves io be in omit of trade ; I mean to say, that this Ought to be an additional reason why vie should have every measure, connected with trade, ma turely nod deliberately considered. Does the knovr, that these Orders in Council may make thitee 30,000 men amount, in a short time, to 300,000 petitioners upon similar grievances ? Does the Haute know, that these Ordets may be the means of producing a war with America ? Not one British merchant has yet given his opinion upon • this measure to the House. One of the most va luable productions that has bean published upon the subject, has indeed been given by an Hon. Member, a practical merchant—(alluding to the Namphict of Alexander Baring, Esq.)--atal can tiny one *ay that he has examined it, and yet approve of the measures proposed by Ministers ? The question then inerelyenines to this, shall a sub ject fat' vital interest to the country, and meriting serious consideration, be discussed in a Committee of the whole Ilouse ? If the Right Hon. Gen tleman can answer in the negative, I have done. If dlc think a Secret Committee would be preferable, let him send it to one up stairs. That would be auflidently . satisfactory. Upon the 11th of No vember he issues these Ortlees of Council, of a most extraordinary nature; his wet afflict% was to pre vent Parliament front meeting, that it might not diet ass them; and, uhen it does meet, he takes mesas to make. Parliinnent take us little notice as possiLle of the whole treasection. So far from its bein4 matter of mortiticatioa to him, he ought to thank me fur having, before it be too tate, suggested the proper mode of use, so as to prevent lnnm involving hirneell w ri c : e ttare dhficultiee, which he will afterwards regret. He will perhaps con tend that he will meet the enemy upon the prin ciple of privation ; but I beg him to recollect, that the enemy have already had more experience of plivatiou than we ourselves have had; and we fright therefore to consider what may be the effects of privations upon those merchants themselves who Wive lived in luxury. Let us set the body of a lattitiOut and wealthy merchant against that of a spare Frenchman, who has had little or nothing to live upon for these last 15 years, and judge which, 'of them would suirer most by the privation. Dots he believe that the manufacturing interests of this country can go on many months longer in keeping Nam without having business to • employ them ?" The Right Honourable Gentleman, after several other of,,,ervations, caroming thew arguments, COW. eluded with movin.!, " That the House will, upon to-morrow se'unight, resolve itself into a Coin- Mittee of Commerce, Trade, and Navigation, in order to take the Orders of Council into consider atrial." The Csatecatt,totief the Exedsumsa—" I cer tainly thought we should have avoided beiug drawn into a discussion of the Orders of Council, till the Bilk itself be brought into its next tinge, as I con ceived the motion of the 'tight Hon: Gentlemln Merely: related to a question of form in our pris e mixings. He has assured me, that the opposition which lie and others rake against the Bill itself is not vexatious, nor for the Purpose of delay. I can assure him and them, that any oppereition they may snake will lint be deemed vexatious, as to nay self ; it well never affect me in the execution of my dirty, but will be only a vexatious opposition to the public. With respect to the Papers In ques tion, they wets distinctly referred ta this House by His*Majesty s icor the express purpose of giving more complete effect to these Order.l, and to produce a practical measure Out of them. hat practical mea sure is the Bill which I havetholightproper to lay before the House, to give legislative effect to them, by levying certain duties thereinpropceed. I ap prehend that no one can doubt every opportunity has been afforded of discussing every thing that connects itself With the measure, the polity, the legality, and its reference to the law nitrations, or to our own iiatenial regulatious. On the eery first day, when it was proposed to submit them to a Committee of Way!: and Marts, tt was open to every one to object to the whole, or to any pert of them. 'flint was sorely the avowed intention alf proposing tneli a rel'erence. Had that Committee beret of opiuion that they were likely to have a daagerons tendency, could they not have refused to pre their sanction tothein ? There was no op partway omitted of getting every information that ,was thought itee,asary upon the rah. fret. We haie been charged with having acted with a great degree of boldness, because we take this measure upon. our own responsibility and an thuritv. Now I beg leave to appeal to the House. whether this be correct, or if such an assertion be due to the course of proceedings which have already been adopted upon this subject? Ministers have felt it to be their duty to submit to the House, upon just gmunds of reasoning add argument, measures which they conceive to be expedient in every point of view, and likely to bring advents ;e to the coun try, in the situation in which we are placed. The House have already bad moues of considering that expediency. and have expressed their approbation. Now as to the afinsion the Hon. Gentleman has made to the Petitions for Peace, I may observe, that the Ordess of Council could not be with jus tice alleged to be the cause of the grievances therein stated, because they trust have been set on foot previous to the Orders of Council having passed.— There it one clause in the Bill, which lass some connection with another subject:which I have al ready stated my willingness to leave out altogether, se as not to impede its progress. Upon the whole, I see an, necessity for submitting this Bill to any other Committee, nor do I see any occasion fbr adoptiug any other course of procedure, in regard to their - ill relative to Ireland." The Right Hon. Gentleman then concluded with giving his nega tiee to the motion. Dr. LAWRENCE was surprised at the mode in which this had been introduced into the Hou.e. He thought the form mud manner in those cares in dispensat•ly necessary. A measure that affects the vital intermit:of the country, required tbs mode of tarcstiptiuu poiuted out by his Hun. Friend near him. ft was contended, that a Committee t t Ways and Means would give every opp or t un i t y f o , ii full discussion of the merits of these () fi l ers i, Council, but he was satisfied it would not. It would not 'enable us to obtain that tvidente which aCc inmittee of Trade could alone procure ; and he hesought the House, before they ovoid submit to put the beat interests of thettounteeliathe em of a die, to seriously consider of the mefietlitiated out for the investigation of this imposto n s illat i m. A good deal had been said as to.thefininher of p e e titious on your bible for Peace. Red of the in 4 feet& they were likely to product. kie was rota s advocate for those Petitions ~ but he thought it but common justice, and that Ministeemwere most i ns . peratively called upon to mitisPi thoacientioresSsi the measures lately adopted lief t lrise and never. Gary, and to prove to the mercantile pot of it e x 4 4m justice and expediency of them , t he mod e inted out was not the manner best calculated to ve thO satisfaction. Form and re„' ularity wr - e thaa ever requisite in the iinestigatiori thettecent question, and he misted the House wou ld adopt that mode most likely to give the eatiabertion re. quired. Mr. ADAM conceived the manner pointed out through the medium of a Committee tif Wsys and 'Means as highly irregular, and ill calculsted f or Abe invertigincou of the merits of the Orders is Council. Those grand Cominitteesysere institutoi in the best days °elite country, and there was net in the history of parliamentary proceedings, all,- tinetion more strongly pointed out by Mai aocesturs. than that between those Committee* and the le stitutiou of particular Committeeis th the present instance, His Majesty's Ministers have, thought proper to depart from this wise and wholesome system, and by so defog have involved the investi gation of these Orders in Council in a great degre e of complexity and confusion. The Creornittee of Ways and Means, he contended, was nut at all a fit channel through which the consideration of these measures should be proposed to the Hoar. He recollected in the year 1731 there was a duty imposed upon yarn, it was sonte time after pros posed to repeal it, and thouh this may be deemed a measure of finance, yet it was thought fit to consider it in a Committee of Trade. if on as Occasion of this nature it was thought proper Os adhere to system and form, how touch more so oes a question like the present, which involves the most important interests of the country ? fie therefore trusted the House would reprobate this departure from the mode of investigation pointed out by our ancestors in the consideration of ins. portant questioes, and that they would bring the present one before them in a pure and unadulte. rated form, and in the only way in which it can give satis fac ti on, namely, that of &Committee of Trade. . _-.. i"! 7. Rose said, that the 'Avoiding Or of the House, made. in 1793, had provided the/ all Matters df tnide Ooilici go through a Committee it Wilt and Means. The manner adopted in tbKpresent instance he dial not conceive to be as innovation; Oil the contrary, every opponnnity that could ba looked for as atharded for the eliscateiion of the •tivrissares in question. He Conceived the Honour able Gentleman (Mr. Adam) had mistaken the distinction pointed out by him, and than he hall net proved the expediency of i ht mitonar ke thought would be beat calculated for the investigation of the nresent question. litt- PoNdom ay thought the . nessourable Cele then an, ...fly had just sat down, end itho had stand that his Honourable Friend (Mi. Adam) bad tube taken the present question, was himself labouring under aMush greater mistake, Ha contended that there was a most striking and material ditference between Grand Coinmitt.rei and . particular ones. The object intended in the institution of the latter ones was, that opportunity should forgiven to ob tain all the information that emild be had on the topic to which they referred, ind due conelderatiola given them r -auth as those for religion, trade, kt. and surely it would not be contended, that it was the practice to mix up the consideratiorvof these distinct subjects in one Geand*Conmiittee. li bat had been urged as to the Prerogative of tlyr Crowd. in the homing of the Order's 01 • Cotiticit he Atonid abstain from commenting ou. It world bre *effi cient to inquire, Whether the Crown hidlmen pro perly-adtised or not ? In His M•jeoyVilddrew. no particular mode has been pointed out for the consideration of these important measures, it was therefore competent to the House to say what would he best to adopt.. Ha would state a ewe fromthedoornals of the House, in which his Ma- jesty's Prerogative had been exit reised ; it was in concluding a treaty of-commerce imel.savigatioa with His Most Christian Majesty in the year 1787; that treaty was referred to Parliament to take into consideration how they were to preceed upon it--and how did they proceed ? lustmd of going into a Com mittee of Ways and Means, they resolved themselvis into a Committee of the whale House, to consider the exercise of the K ing'e Prerogative. On the 41st February, this Comaiittee examined and approved of it. Having examined the measure in tins way, they then referred it to a Committee of Ways and Means, to impose the necessary duties under that Treaty. He was not inclined to attach Any biome to the lion. Gentleman over against him for hiv ing proceeded in this manner ; but he could I,ot help saying, that it was one ill calculated • to do justice, or to give an opportunity for the complete investigation of a measure of such parliament im portance as the present. The manner in whirl' • this question can be examined in s Committee of Ways and Means is only in reference, to the duties imposed under the supposition of the principle of the measure having been approve& hi .Parliament ; but the wisdom, necessity, and expediency of the measure, cannot be argued upon. If the Hon. 1 Gentleman opposite silleuld think tit to reject these arguments, he would only Any, that it was dealing, with a question of the kind in a meaner the most scandalous and unbecomintlt. Mr. TICRTI ST conceirml, that the-arguments of the Right ;lon. the ChthicellOr of the, Exchequer lay in a very small centre*, namely, that suAi cient opportunity had been given Ar: thu investi gation of the question in the tray grlotited. He thought that no connilitne , t was. Mien* due :IT the opportunity given. The Hasa. ! Cesudealul• et e r li t as well as he could I olk-ct him. had made use of the word “41.‘cision," but he a , Ili'' proper to adopt the word ..docussion. willed to wale was CI au op twit iVq€ coulP' for on coone prigti there trode 1/461 itt ob ea* orb :sea ing 11 ,00 *Me the Iney kru: Men Coo ITIO*I intO er ‘ take Be ever tho', brit ail K to ,~ :. ~,