The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-04-06 00:00:00

• el s Mid h • it* i 4 apprebeisil ape , lat such a upon of Corpir, o dis.. Burge a prOni couenitted, as being iliegalfy ewe. milte d; jtOtas if a malt were to be temieitted for 'Vag that •Bassk Notes haw bccoufe depreciated iu o tt ir velar bp their number, sod that were called • b r each ofthe PriOleNcl of the Directors of the Enelantl. • lie therefere.thonght it would !owe e m u extremely adriscable to Nave stated in the •sarrant of coauttittnent . of J. G. Jones what the sc; w as which he did; and, he slid net hesitate t o *dare that, in his jodgment, if that act did not tiler W something .which was done by the House, by a Member of the ii•onse, in the character I such Members it was an illegal ernatnitinent.- 44 b e die also further entertain a very great d o ubt, whether the Haute of Commons has n right io commit any nian fur what he said of any Mem ter of that House, even in that character; if it re eled to his past conduct ; beveuse, if the conduit , a s past, however atrocious the calumny might k , it was no ohAruction le the _proceedings of she noose, and therefore it way not necessary for ate to coattail any person In that case, in . o pport of the•proceedings of the house. That ,s e Moose hatl,legai power to . conimit for a con: t: „ :11 ,t of the limas?, was a proposition which he r „,d,ly assented to,. and that they had that power 4 , 0 breaches of privilege whick might have 1 -. 84 ,:fe,:t of übstraseting the . proceedings of rho nut as .the ilow.'Harottet (Sit J: Anateue e ,, s ) vemiti have it, for_- a constructive taindruce. ea u to the preieedisigti tif the Aeon, by at it into di:replete:lOW the pitille; sifter they ode h C a tithat of privilege ,had l it, be conceived, ton Nitwit Oalttlety and . re- 1 fputient to meet the honest `ipsnmon sense of 1 s enkilid; for that no proceeding, could fairly e el to be obstructed , alter they were user. That tSg !kuse had power to commit any witness who, ,you l e gal *summons; refused to attend, • soul at wading, refused ttiatiswer, or to bring with Joeumente justly Required of° him ; or . , :dm obstructed' a Member in his way to the }(,,se ; or held out mew°, to intintiiiith a 31er:slier from voting in any way, were pointseriliielt be readily admitted it as necessary for the pro „Jingo of the Manse that it should have that tower, without trtsiOlt it could riot go on, nor would the House be everaccure in ,coming to an t objassed discussion on any subject. No man eon% therefore, doubt of the existence, belle o sun could doubt of the necessity ist•eacis, t wee: But when any thing was published •so lieeist condilit bf the Roust', ,er any Member it, not relating to any proceeding then depend. g I S the Volsci: he certainly entertained great' aubt of the right of cenimilment in %rich a case ;.' ist, fiq doubted, 'Weenie it was ; against the most parfait and sacred principles of justice, be. not Hit Hoek was in such a ease itself the panty ievishig and the judges of the accusation; because, !this prOceeditti, the party accused cannot hear slat 15 said agaiosti. par ho heard in his own irreace ; for • would any man say it was cons Sot to the rules of justice to read a few de- Itched passages out of a tong work, and heating slat the accused. had to say, and then ordering ha W Mire, • -Ind then the acensera s le tsiog /firer' titelisitftb*, and argue among tlAseilves iipon'the ateot of their own power, beitiad the bai•it of the seceded, :and then corn. Rail him indefinitely_ without bail ; would it/ mail, ho asked, say-that this would be eon. want to the priticiples •of jestice ? lie appre. kraled it to be impossitle to make such a practice spar like justice In any degree. What would be said of a judge whos after he had heard a libel odd ; were to ealLepoit the Defendant for what him, to say for himself—were their to bear that Defendant, order him to retire—were to hear evi. limo and eloquent speeches frdm the accusers be lied the Defendant, suet then to call him into red; and imprison him without hail for an iudc. hilt period ?. Would.not such a judge deserve to licimpeached ? certainly he would ; and yet pre. tad) , such was the Case hero; and the ineonveni. tact: as Weil at irregularity, forit tit only were the Memb e rs of • the ilinise the accitsers and*'the idgil in their own• cause, 'bit they Proceeded moreover in evidence, which was not giign under the sanction of art oath,. • it was true .that the ratty here admit ted himself to be the atithir of the libel; bat he was contending for.thelwinciple upon which proceedings should beliad. lie had, indeed, that analogy from (Jousts ofJtistice was net a role by which the House should 'be glided; he ownctl he Was not of that opinion, t ut the rub s of justice ought never to be dis. 'larded by any humitratithority. One of these rules tves s that BO man should be contemned, uuicartl. That, and some other rules; were not OlirVITTUrh *fsee the House of Commons, let above as Courts efe.lusese, and erewabove Ineattes-.4estgeetiont. 'All human tribunals were by. thesive; • for none that was not fOstkenent natere ct at! inept:ma with such rul..s !ilfrfe• But it had beetr'said there *ere prece- WI S inCunrts of base-fee* -Oasiolatitting persons forlilelling that , Ptheeedingi, its in this case: lie 4 41 aqt say there- were lest any, but; they were !ex . lie believed. . There were precedents, it hs said writ what were •t hey ? —for really Gen. 111 " talked much sheet precedents, and said ,t 7 were Now if they were ''lloeerable s . of course Some of thesis might cagilylt iwntlaced. Where are they ? Where 14 the ;wee llents of commitments of HOW' , this tar illie l 4, lir SI embers of this House, for their past. tv 'd 4 l t if ot:ie, its toy ease is here the accused prosecuted by any other tribunal of ". L'lmuld be glad,said he, to know where they Ur, , le On l y ease which reeemblcs the pre. *," i° the use' of Attie-or which took Ne d _l_ 4 OUnt the year 1590 1 - in the reign of 'l ` ' r the Tuctori—retigns not remarkable fur cr ectiellts to be imitated at the present day by tkis 'hose, on a point which relates to the liberty °f qte r the subject ; f o r much about this time we End n.r r ' 4l en (Elisabeth) s by her Message by the the "II , a !! o order. the House of COOIIIIOOP, on Honing ..h Parliament , - e ' 6 sot to Concern t Ir4el qs• With, *setters :of state." And again, sl the subject of her Majesty's marriage, she - ""liltlioese•te delist - freni e'en eousidcrin .a . • tl I ,r, ;.. • • ! eineasore t Now whit had Hall done ? Ile had published a work reflecting on the house or Cutntiions-unil..srjete of-the Itlenibers of it, for which he, was summoned before the Privy Council, and also hofore the !Nose. Ile refused to ap. pear. Ile would not attend ; and the House pro: ri .•tled on this complicated clierge.—[llore Sir S. ii umilly. Irefid the report of the case, by which it appeared that she defendant was fined GOO marks, expelled. the house, and that at the end of the sit months imprisonment, he l.te continued still further confined, until he should make such retractation of his sentiments as should be satisfactory to certain Members of the Governineut, who were thea named; and unless he made that retract:item, to the satisfaction of the servants of. the Crowvi, hesnight remain in prison for life, for Parliament was nut regularly assembled.] Was this a precedent.hy which the House of Commons of the prevent day was Sa be guided? He wished to ask, Whether the House was prepared to say, that they would adopt tspre. cedcnt, by which a man. might be imprisoned fur life, for a libel reflecting on the conduct of as indi. vidual Member of the House, not on the Home it. self; fur enforcing the standing Order of the flonso was all that was imputed in the libel of Oulu Jones on Mr. Yorke, and that after the whole of thej subject to which it related was over, and that it was not the act of the House was clear Neu this, that there was no debate upon. it,. it was enforced by Mr. Charles Yorke. It was therefor* a libel on that (gentleman, and on him alone, 14100 .s • !- 1;1 • 0011: 4 , ileitoreal EiNgllti. leo k verily ,fielleied, that however right that dedgi..l4ht be id *elf, - Or however cortsdientiously Memba,t 4+itakt have, voted in that majority, the Hoists of Coniniotts and the Notion- were of dijeeiint opinions upon the subject....(No, 150; no ! from seoerai parts' of the hlouse.)—Sir S. Romilly retained 'his opi. niou on th e st subject, notwithstanding the cond. deuce of the negetiVe Which had just been tittered: with so much vehemence ;, and he added that whelk the Itesulution now before the House was disposed of, he should mote that Gale Jones be discharged" without petition, on the ground that,• drst„ he ought not to have been imprisoned oo that, war rant ; and, secondly, if he ought, he had already suffered enough. Mr. STEPHEN compliniented his Friend en the moderation and urbanity, so consistent with hie manly character, which he had on the present 0r...' casket displayed, but lamented that he bad (while speaking on a subject on which he wished the House to be unanimous) adverted to a topic of all others the most likely to. create disNion. If unfortunately the vote of the House had not tic. corded with the sentiment* of. the People, it did nut then follow that they were not to assert, their privileges. If the House had fallen in the public estimation„ it teas soot the .way to retrieve its character by pnvOraidieg the Public, that both shies t while lovettigufing a great constitutional ciplei bad uojustlicommittedn subject to prison.; -His Hon. Friend:bad not iutorrupted the lineal. nit/ of 0%44 . 9)14A T. his single dlssint. More Sir &ilia, STOW 6d - ti'aslia'o4inEj he" werb ent presint; feelingly alive as he ;natio the interests of Miley* * . had that conttnittal struck him as being unjust theirst time ho had entered the Mow afterwards Ire' Would hate moved .for the discharge of Me. Jones. He therefore' contended, the house had not unjustly encroached on the liberty of the *Object while asserting their own, His Honourablei Friend on the forever evening was ' riot prepared tip Say whether or not the paper , before them eras libellous; be. (Mr. Ste. phen) biped he would have formed his opinion by "that time (yesterday), s but he had been disappointed. If he were disposed.tO think the paper' *qs a libel, alt those elaborate ar. • guments W which-be had called the :attention of the 1 . 41150 were irreleiant to the question before him, and did not bear him out in opposing the motion. He could not consistently oppose it Without main. taioing that that House had in no case a right to commit. The paper of the Honourable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) went to say, that they had violated the Constitution of the. Country, trampled on Magna Charts, and subverted the liberty of the sub. ject. He meant to infer that' they had violated their int great duty, and usurped a tyrannical power to imprison a man illegally without trial by. jury, . and that they had. transgressed beyout the bounds which :won and which * Oahe should prescribe to thee. He had endeavoured to* substantiate this . by at sort of syllogism; setting forth-that no court possessed the power of toning the salkject bill a Court of Record, and that no court•could be. I Court of Redord in which daw ranges amoantinn tolebove Could not be re, . k7leier get with credit, and they ought issquive beets passed. offer. Tie Hon. Member tare related :in anecdote of a man called 14A ker., ' . who happened to engage in .a quarrel, whic‘tic.weebeat In a - most unmerciful Manner: • 'e next air trapoeared with his eyes closed from the contusions he had i*ecived,./Lept on his, nose; and several of his teeth driven from the front of-his meith. On being met by i countryman, he asked 'bins hew he coilld suffer himself to be disfigured ini such a manner, Ind fur which he was a diSgrace to :his country. To which he replied, that lie took, :the world aisy. Such a principle, it was scares necessary for him to observe, was the worst pot:, 'Able method of getting clear of, or accounting for - a misfortune. As, to the . question before the House, be tionld certainly rote for the letter's be: " ing a breach 'of privilege ;'`but if it were passed Over, the fitst course which should be taken; mutt beto compeetete Gale Jones kir the losses he had suStainedOnsd, Then to unsure from the *dome tat power of ciaiereittal. Mr. ,ADAM congratulated the MON. on its coming coolly and deliberately to consider this portant question. - If th; opinions delivered by his Hon. and Learned Fiiend (Sir S. Romitly) were promulgated, he would say there was an end of the. authority of this Houk. - Should 440 Hem, the Chimpion of the iibertiei of the people.; which It vindicated against the inanities's of James , kind Charles IL—Ohotild ibis Ilnuse which feria Jamei 11. to Odle-ate his ilifont his ever struggled against the innovation of the Crosnr, - Antt ld *bleb . struggtwit triiitsenti aucemsful, though coped with tyrsiany,oboaldi he said, this House now; resign its rights ? Should democratic power, When probed to the . bettorn„, .be .now plated over in Silesia, ?—(fitvsr :was astonished, that one of - such perspiegity And application as • his Learned Priced should State, that the present question depended on the' . case of Gale Jones—that the House viai oicupied in the consideration of the past, and not the pre. .sent subject. On what does .the power° of a • Cued of Judicature rest, but on the maintenance Of its character ?..—has it been forgotten, that•thisi .14 one of the primary Courts of Judicature He . then proceeded to read a passage from Lord Coke's. 4th Institute; where it states that it is Impossible . for a Court to be high in tho'estimation of the pen. plc, or to maintain its authority, without a iertabs power ; this power, when lieentions, is certainly injurious; but still it is essential to Goreitsusent•—• [Hear ! hear !] in a word, no eupreme power Can exist without a right of punishment for contetipt. The ease of Gale Jones was a despicable ground on whiCh to put this question. Upon this subject it was argued that no one could be considered guilty of contempt Unless committed in presence of the Houte. Could it be possible that•the au. thority of . the House of Commons and the House of Lords is put in the situation of that of the constable of the night, who possesses the right of committing a drunken man to the watehhouse, be. cause he is an obstruction. • (Loud cheers.) Me. Juitice . Blackstone states as cleat as possible, the the authority of a Court rusts on its inquisitorial power; and. in what doettiris cosmetic be.Q.‘l3l w et aqiich -was sa,tr.t befon...tbAL tilleinr Pub 'Weil. Sir Samuel Romilly begged to be iiidert; stood stotasafefentlitig the libel itself, ter 4.sias a publication.of which he greatly disapproved, as he did the measure by which. it was preceded--he meant the debate at the Society of which Mr. Gale Jones was a member, where a number of persons assent hied on payment of a shilling apiece, or some trifling suns of money, to hear persons• display oratorical powers upon occasional, and there• fore, to a populace, engaging subjects, at the expense of public characterss who lisuPitti means of defending themselves, and .who were generally out that account roughly treated—but still lie was hound to say he did ant conceive this a sub. jest for the commitment of the individual to prism+ ; lie did not think it an obstruction to the proceedings of the House of Commons, because the thing to which it related was user; and he thrther observed, that arguing from analogy to Courts of Justice, in which ho did not pretend to be perfect in his recollection, although he had some experience in them, but he rather in: clintal to think there was no case, certainly nut snooty, in which Courts of. Law had committed a party, for auy libel oh its proceedings after those proceedings were over—for libels pending the pro. 'emaliogs he knew there were, but they had no bear. in; on this case, for here the proceeding was over before the publication .of the libel. He maintain ed, that the case .of Brass Crosby, in the Court of Common .Pleas, decided nothing as applicable to the question now before the House. He thought the doctrine contended for by Sir Sohn Anstruther was alarming, to-the liberty of the subject,; fur it went ,to this, that .the Heusi of Comotena. ill. to....itt.dge., PL. ka. casmar i ,,, _. ....„. , .._, _., r ,.....-....,..-.swpr. - s? arca; sucquif w r "9.$•••• ..... e------s . v. -----1-" s--... u'air. ,- hates to an inde fi nite extent ; and that it **he saininiirtmrofraritierhAfre olkattttUllave'stated of this, its enthority is lost amo n g the pis:tsk,' • exercise its authority without either restmint bill Intetstion it ins n . he admitted the tight of the without it, to oppose the influence of the Crolino ' or limit but its own moderation ;Jo that there R eese to oommkin certain ceses, though he .de. Would be ine ff ectual ;itis a right which csinootr ' was no remedy, if the exercise should be. nicd that Mr. G. Jones had merited to bo.so corn. he told when it commenced, but stands on Wise.' -"" 4: tome ever so enormous or inhuman.--. Now,. nutted. Thinking so, it world not be enough morial usage. The•time would crime • when the - said the Learned Member, I should be very that he should move for his . discharge: -He 'voice of th e people, throri g h that Hock,' Vociulda glad if-any Gentleman would tell mo'what is the ought to go farther, mid solicit the Crown drive away the present Ministers from -the veinal fair, correct definition of arbitrary power, other to afford him some remuneration for - the of power ; such was his devoted prayer; rat than that power which has no restraint or limit its confinement he has endured. If ho could this was an object unattainable, unless by • .. its exercise but its own moderation. Ile then persuade the House to 'that,. still one quell_ tecting their privileges. The Honourable Mn'iai. took up-Site subject of rho tiolence of the fan. lion would remain behind—whether the .act of ber referred to the precedent of 1774; in thus ' rage, As it had been .called, of Sir Francis committing him wad.wilfully illegal,. Wanton, and case of Mr. WOodfall, who published -a Oar Burdett; in this publication, and maintained it arbitrary ?—.es stated in the pimphlet. They had against the then Speaker. Mr. Fox mated the* . . to be much inferior in violence to that which been 'told that the opinions of all the great law he should be committed to Newgate; *bee • • was adopted in. the Resolution of that' House; authorities quoted Were not to he heeded, and he and ' Mr, Horne were brought in *costar ; ' • and that after •a conference had with the Lords his Hon. Friend had Censured the decision Of Lord to the Bar, the latter pleaded not guilty,. bee . . on the subject of a writ of error on the proceed. Kenyon. He had not been able to collect . from he dared not then tell what he has Oa,. ins of the Aylshury Election, by -which the the pamphlet-the grounds on which these were peed some ahem now. (Loud cries of Hear!) House of Commons had. told the House of Lords, impeached.' In the case *of Crosby, the Court When the greatest authority and experience ea. " That their Lordships- Were contriving to bring had stated the House to be the best judges isted, in the time of Lotd North, the rights of the rights and liberties of the subject into the.sole of - their own privikges. The light thus thrown Parliament Were never doubted; such contumacy gulf of their Lordships' discretion, which would •on the Legem el - consuetidixens Parliarnenli was left to those times. At that time there was swallow op the' rights and liberties of the, peo. was.sufficient to establish the right of the - not one word heard about the privilege'', of the pie, end to which their Lordships gave the Com. House to com:nit for a breach of ;their privi. House. It was thb more extraordinary, beanie mops nation to *lay, they were utterly to dig. 'lege*, twin the case of Mr. G. Som. The dor. an acrimonious discussion took pence, and the . regard their', edgrneet [we think it *as] When trines quoted on.behalf of Btirdett had been um; most' eminent characters of the country, Fez; thetionsidered in what manner it had been Geer_ fairly cited. They had insidiously Optleieeured Tharlow; Loughborough, dm. took 'part in the eised.'i,Now., suppoeing Sir Francis Burdett had to. g iv e the words .of Coke on - the " l istens, of a debate; , - but it never occurred to them the House thetigh`t the Hot* had trampled upon th e r ights Court of Record, *a meaning diredtit eouteary , te of Commons did net possess the power to commit and liberties of the subject, whether he took a their true one, ..as he, of silt others, had been mot either Mr. Woodfall or Mr. Horn. It was right of a wrong view of that subject, it was na_ in favour of allowing that ,Hodse, the ppweri at *. WI for the times in which we fire, to dig. .W 0 such power and privilege; and he al. ' rural enough that he Simla have adopted some Court of Record. In support of_ ,thisissertioni' warmth of expression, and indeed Sir Francis had ho ihstanted severed passage* in Poke, to:sbow •ntost Considered ieddent:t a Waste The of reiolutiont time to refer been unfairly treated tnight by a Noble Lord that that. House had ex ercised the,aelitortty ofot •tA . 007 other pr tonight(Binning) who spqte early in this debates. when al. Conran ( Ju d ica ture: T h e case Of .04 was ik. 1701, 'otteraf Kentish Petition; the division of, lesion was made to some things he bad said ou t actty'in point; but in that •ease the, Hotta pro.,' set 'extraordinary a nature which followed; the farther occasions, and on o ther subjects. Whether seeded meets lariher thelit would think of pro. events of that- period down to • 17/4; form a the sentithwits uttered by Sir F. Burdett on other cooling its the ,present ease. . His Honourable ground of arguinent from which kis impostible•to (Katie:nand on other subjects were right orwrong, Friend had said, ho was net' aware of any be dislodged. The ease of Ashley and White was it was improper Bow to discuss, fur lie was not to authority of it Court to punish libels .On put an end to by a dissolution of Parliament ; IRA be judged of by what lie had uttered on other oe: its Members. , Here the Honothable Chntlensan this, as' the. necessity of a sepreme intervening' jcasions, but on this occasion; and here again he quoted Blackstonomst some length to prove the power was evident,' was a wise resolution' Crosby I must be excused for the • prelinlices of This habits, Howie had acted illegally. Ho was *astonished well refused s Habeas Corpus ; and In the . year when he said, that in a Court of Justice no re. that one so-skilled in law, so strenuosis an "die. 1762,' #le Murray was brougbe it fi - efore the Habeas Hoter, ference was ever alloared to belted to the conduct Bate for libe rt y; should den y the privileged of who applied te the King's 'Pch tor • of an accused party other than n hat related to the Parliament, -and leave them to be trampled on, or. Corpus. This was refused by Justice •Wright, . • question immediately before the Courts- , -a practice go begging•to e .Cuort of Law to establish their an:upright Judge, and of utbietnfished chertotet, which the house might with. adeautage imitate. authority .' If the House did not Vindicate its pri. who declared that in so doing he felt- per. - Sir F. Burdett was nut to be tried by the House vileges, should the Judges appointed •hy the, fectiy Itkey in his • cooseleicei: inessin. asmuch,' as • the ha of CoMmatts upon a eliciting whether that IloW , e .Cro wn -be the arbiters ? %mad the vindicati on conesiweil, such- a refusal to ~... tu t to • approved or disapproved .of his political semi_ of the privileges of the House of Commons be. „feelings of thi5,_,,..:•.. ,:, s n tt ee m b mesas or not, but whether he bad or lialt slot , finally vested, by la . natural tranaition, in the hesiquoted the onikurily orifor, , . ,^ 7 ldriustice committed a breach of the privilege of the .House House of Lords ? Ile was hapPylo Say popu. 'Hale, from the maaoscript in th ' Tememian e e of Commons, which .ho thought he had not. lay discontent no longer existed. The Expedition, 'Mr. Hargrave (page -244. chap. 11.):arlsich states The next point was the time in which ibis aubjet't • and the motives which directed it wete now ex. thct tho power of .committal beiongiehathe House had been brought forward ; and the feeling*, tite plained sad sippsfeed of ; for the sake of , the by.anquestionabloommeibut It had sot tile etoWer 1 of giving damages ; . This as farther centabberarect hlr.. Hargrave a Discourse on• the History of public on the,present occasion. JC.w.as.ltato reffel. permanent interest:of Ike ConstitatiOu, end foe lected,that this was a subject whichgri osst, isfObe the authority of the 110V1104 'OA eonsidetatios. .in 'rhenea n t e Ai ll it i nAw l ur t " 11/sleben () % Expedition, for the or eau' teed by Aerial preclude the atceseity of punishing p a t i e nt M r.Yorke vies to exclude strangotsTrO in lie gallery who treated k witheonteend. He was quite as.. h P e arli sluse sll4" l4l t q a t r i Y ote j , il i di o ca n t d l uir, b lli e . that of one s od J u d ges i s Able coca ihide... .whom he never Gould .speak witlin'ut the- feet. during the whole of the esamination•orsvidenee tuniShedai the assertion that the Beassf was the might say watt educatett in Parliatueetond f upon that Zspedition, and it was that eisinsion parties, accusers, po t ties ; th e ir otssbeettir wee logs of ardent veneration and allection. • .M r. which pendeced the libel of Galeloise, and Is eied.that,they were was the commitment of that person which prodec ant exercised lot their own; nor for. the sake of' Pox being- asitedi- btfw fat the mower of ' the cd the publication 'of Sir Francis Bartlett. - Now. any; indiehlaal, bat for„the sake of those, whoient :Roue . extended in , emirates, 1. he onewercd s ugoa tho dvcisiou oil duo Hobs of ,Coonnostron them Akers. 'Out of such questions the li ons -it could cOtamit for contat9t, or taisdetes • suosr, .• . - , • • ••. . . . • . ' .Y. a .~ a :611