The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-03-29 00:00:00

THlt's, he could not but think that every Hon. Officer who had served on the Expedition would have wished for mountains to cover, or seas to over. wheim him, in artier to escape the indignation of the public. [Hear, hear !) When charged with a wish to delay the di.cussion on the conduct of the Expedition, the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred to his conduct during. the whole of the investigation to prove the contrary. He. was ready to admit, that the Noble Lord, not then in his place, had conducted himself with great • propriety • throughout the whole 'of these proceedings. But when the Right Honour. able Gentlemen referred to the papers not yet de. livered from the printer's as a cause of delay, be must observe, that whatever might be the abilities of that Right Ilbn. Gentleman, he could du but one thing at a time. It was the opinion of a great .hi' -man, that that was the manner in whirl' All things were dune. As they were not pressed fur time as •to the present question, there was no ground fur interrupting that in which the House been previously engaged- When the notice if the motion had been given by the Honourabk Gentle man, it was suffered to lie over for twenty-four hours. Why, then, not lie over fur a longer pe riod ? He care the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. 14(11. • bridge) credit, when he said, that he hail nut lout himself to any man in the course had taken; but he must 'be allowed to all, that the Ho nourable Member had allowed himself l e be intlu. awed by the. Chancellor of the Exchequer. [ilear, hear!] • The Honourable Member teas witting to allow time, but the, Right Honourable Gentleman had availed himself of this question as a Godsend [hear! hear!], in the same manner as a drown. , iag man would catch at a straw. It was an flit; saying, that many things happened between the cup and the lip, so also did many things hap. pen between the baiter and ; the pear ! hear! .Iseitil] He did not mean to,say„, If hit mks t* go to the extreirtits., that the Right Honourable: Gentleman was entitled to be behead_ ed, neither had he meant to apply the allusion to, him. Gentlemen might recollect the case of a soldier, who, on the retreat .in Spain, had hcen tried by a Court Martial cur sciineheinims offence, arid sentenced to be shot. The 'detachment of cavalry was drawn up for this execution ; but, fortunately, the enemy came in sight; the cavalry escaped, the culprit was put on a horse, and flesh with the rest, and so the whole ended. As he trust ee! the House of Commons would never sheet any feat, so also he hearted Oath would not manifest tither faVonear partiality to anjperson. [Near! hear!) He * thou;ht the House,. by acquitting the . Right Honourable Gentleman last Session, had slidon boa; partiality, aol, thereby contributed to that degradation into which some persons supposed the public - to consider it as fallen. The Right Honourable Gentlemen had certainly been charged with a breach of the privileges of s that House. Lord Catitlereagh, however, had, and if not for to publish the substance of his speech. lie had read the letter, and thought that there was nothing •in it which any country Memb,r might not have addressed to his Constituents. —Having read the letter, he put the argii. ameat in his pocket, supposing it to be the• same as the speech a hick he had heard. On coin ing down to the !loose, however, he was informed that notice had been given of the motkin by the. lion. Member: 11 - hen he beard this, he thought that the matter would soon be over, as he did not 'think there was any thing exceptionable in the .speech. But he was afterwards informed that there were many things in the argument which were nut in the speech ; and it - was own the ground that he was not prepared to'girc an opinion upon any one of these new passage}, that he wished for the adjournment of the discussion. It was impossible to say that any one passage was a libel, without considering the whole, and ascer. taining how each might be explained or no. .dified by the context or other passages in the pa. per. That he should do, if allowed time to con. siilet the paper ; but if not, he should not be driven to vote for the Resolutions of the Hon.. Gentleman. As a Juryman, and he looked upon " the House as in that iti.tance called upon .to per: form the functions of Jurymen, he should, in' ease of any doubt, feel himself bound to .pro. flounce the party innocent. Others were no doubt ill the same situation with Mm; and he had no he e. sitatiou in saying, that any lion. Member who felt a doubt upon the subject, was bound to say not guilt . What detriment, he would ask, could result from agreeing to the adjournment of this discussion ? A lkGen Omen were not so highly gifted as the ;tight Hon. Gentleman, to comprehend the details of two important subjects at once. They had not, as that Right Honourable Gentleman seemed to have,• cells in their brains for the reception . of different kinds of evidenee, nor that constitution of in. tellect which Citahled him to cast shades over one description of evidence, whilst he applied his attention to another, and then to withdraw these shades at will; for the purpose of proceeding to -b the gentlemanly terms in which he made his ex cuse, which disarmed the resentment of the and the amendment of a Bight Honourable G i n. Conan (Mr. Canning), w belt ovo rise to the coin.; age of a pew word, in the laruzuagc of the Right . Honourable Gentleman, " lest a mistakeable record should appear upon the Journals," he I must hare been cen:icted. Bat the Right Ho nourable Gcot:emon desired that th e __Ouse shouted not slain- itself to be intimidated. Fur himself, he could say, that be had never at any time been ' afraid to avow his sentim. nts. Yet at the same time that he would not be intimidated from express ing his sentiments, he would not be intimidated to act with a false crira.4e, or to do a thing in order to shcw that he durst %In it—[flear, hear !] nor to do any thing, which, in his best conviction, he should nut think right. If he were the only one who was not, and had nut an opportunity to be acquainted with the paper, then he might be the ! • only one who should vote for the adjotirninent, and on a ground which to him appeared unanswer. able ; but he hail another ground, arising out of the good feelings of the lion. Members opposite (the Mauer and Seconder). When he heard these I lion. Gentlemen, in stating their sentiments, al . lode to.comhinations in that Hoop, and the spirit of Jacobinism out of it, he could scarcely be. Here that he was not listening to the organs of the 'tate. Mr. Yorke—(he begged pardon) of the late Member for Cambridgeshire. This was the le gacy bequeathed to that Home by the Teller of the Exchequer. [llear, hear!] That Right Hon'. Gent: hail made a complaint against John Gale Janes, who made a respectful apology at the bar. [No l no!] As he was informed, that person had con ducted himself with decorum at the bar, and 011 that 'ground it was his opinion at the time • that he should be discharged. Every thing that had since been done on the subject tended, step by step, to Make Jones a greater personage than he could otherwise have hoped to become. It was nut his intention then to give any opinion as to the right of the House to commit for conternid ; that opi nion he had before stated, and it was not newt.. sary' for iiiitiro — teP4t. Ile begged here to retain to what he had been drawn oti from loogec than he had intended— the allusions of the lion. Geo. tlemau • (Mr. Lethbridge) to combinations in thai. House. The Hon, Member had said, that oti hearing certain statements in that House, to was to affected, that his hair stood on end. [A laugh.] Now that the lionse knew that be had the gilt of I inguage (though indeed he had heard that lio. microbic - Gentleman before make 'a motion re. specting double.harrelled guns), [A laugh] he trusted that he would not remain silent ; but when he became sensible of this visible vf. feet, rifler his moral to overcome his phypical • impressions, and move that the terrifying words be - - the conshk•ration of the temporardy.secluded jects. When the Right Hon. Gentleman. there- - ; fore, called upon the flutist, not possessing the same advantages with himself; to divide their at teation between two questions, he was doing au ! iojery to the llou,e, .0 each individual in the House, ant to the nation. Butt whatever effect the Right lion. Gentlemao might have 'expected from this interruption, he trusted be would. he disappointed, as well within as witbont the .walls of that House. • Ile might suppose that the pub. lie would be distracted by this gentian) from paying the same attention which it would other. wise to the qeestion in which he was SO deeply ant) personally interested. But the public he believed to be too wise to give into that de lusion. The Right Honourable Gentleman would gain but a short respite before the derision should be pronounced upon him. The Honourable Baronet had claims on the (louse not to proceed precipitately in this question. The House of Cam. mons, whose rights and privileges were interested no less than , the freedom of the people in the deci. sion, had cialtits upon that House to proceed calmly and deliberately, not rashly and precipi. tately. When the Honourable Baronet had made his motion for the liberation of Jones, he was not convinced by his speech, but had voted for the, discharge of Jones, beeanse his previous confini wait appeared sufficient punishment, because his utfence was light, and because he had conducted himself respectfully, when at the bar of that House. Ile did not mean to detain the House longer, as he should not go into any argument as to the right w'iich had been questioned.' He was sure, if the right was nut consistent, with law, that the (louse of Commons was too liberal not to relinquish it ; but if on the contrary the right was legal, that House would always bp bold .enough to' maintain its just rigitli and privileges. Mr. SIDNEY YORKE .said,--- 44 The Teller of the Exchequer has left to this House a legacy, a valuable legacy ; 'toil it is as valuable to.us, • coining from a Teller of the Exchequer": as jf canto from a-brewer - of lifter." . These words prodneed an immense agitation' in the House, with Cries , of'Order, Order, Order! Chair, Chair ! ' " • Mr. WIIITBREAD.- . " I can dect myself, affected but one wny by • the •expressioos of the flooourable Member who has iost spoken, and• that is as a tradesman, by' being held Out •as or brewer of bad porter." [Hear, hear! for *Oise time.] " I have only to hope, as the 'Hun. Gentleman who has conceived so bail awopinion of me as a tradesman, and thinks that I have so far deviated groin the precepts and exam* of my father, that he would do me the honour to, buy a cask of my porter, and I. will sell him the best, that all the voters of the Teller dill° Exchequer drink his health." Ill,hear! Chair [a taken down. pi laugh.] It would err.. ! Inv :ear, ---• • tainly he on every account desirable that he should 1 chair I) not suffer the agitating words to remain in oblivion Mr. SIABAKIifI. The Honourable Member for three weeks, and then the unfortunate titterer is in'piroiession of the flo , ise, to proceed on the of them become the object of another charge, by I question, unltit.s some Ilotionrabk Member speaks bringing t4em in judgment against 'him.— [dent-, to order. hear !] He should appeal to that Bench of Law- Lord MILTON spoke to order, and expressed yens whom he saw before Itim—[o laugh,] whether a desire of taking down the words of the ilvn. rich a practice would be allowed in any Court of Member. (Yo, no, pretty generally from all Justice: whether, on a trial fur one offence, it quarters.] . would be tolerated to give in evidence a previous i Mr. 1V BR.EAD.—" I wish, as lam sore ' act which had never been questioned ? Hu was ' I feel perfect good humour on this subject, and edr4ttg ~K. bold enough to diger fres the Hnnourabl&llarts. thilron.Gentleman, as I perceive by his coun. net, though he had .not read his statement." He.. 4 tenao - ee, it restored to tranquillity, the House had heard the speech of that-Honourable Baronet *wild not call fur an apology ; I require none on with attention, but without being convinced. That this occasion." [near, hear !] 4 1)eeeit 91 1 1 1 Wud , to hiln at, able one, butthe fait .dlir. CROKEIt tentplimented the tioneurahle be found• with it: was, that it would not, if agreed Gentleman on the manly matinee in which •he re .te, advance thnobjict of the Honourable Baronet eeived the sarcasm, which he thought to he unit's one step. lie also found fault with his having pub. tifiable ;• though many of the observations which lisped in. his .argement any thing which* had not fifell (ruin himself on the subject of *bate, his stated in his speech, when he brought forward his conceived tu. be .as Nieto& as the sarcasm whicli proposition. It would have been matter of surprise Was just *used. -This tleptailidr) of the legislative if his Noble Friend (Lord Porchester) had not powe' was arrested in the execution of its rights. brought forward any motion calculated to pro. The liotiourdble Baronet was well aware he dared mote the objects stated in his able speech, on the not. utter one sentence on his legs here of what he proposing the resolutions founded ou the late in- afterwards published 119 argument. •The present vestigltion. Another • complaint he had to make discussion is. whether we shall in 1810 give up the against the Hon. Baronet was, that when he pub- right L:f exi rciSing. the privileges of dur ancestors lisped his Letter and Argument, he professed [No, no! from the Opposition.]---11a persisted till --A!stion.- 111 saying 'ltch %vas the nature of is que. Could th e ll , ,onnrable Baronet doubt the autho rity of the House to- commit strangers for Con te:no-I, which he had attempted to prove in lan.. gunge not only inconclusive, but o f a b a d taste— laugit.]•;i—",'Wtatilti not you, Sir,' (addressing itinisrli to the Speaker) who have ever filled that Chaie*With manly dignity, interpose your autho rity if such expressions, which I shall now read,' .%% ere uttet:eil here, expressions aiming at and in sulting the dignity of this Ilouse and that Chair ?" " t.el ink instrument, 'this thing, sni zenerit, he centrist ed ith the description above given of properties of a lawful! warrakt. Dors it not evidently appear that this piece of uasealed w per, sioed by the Speaker, by which an un tried suhjecr has been outlawed, hears no feature of k gality 7 , • If such were his expressions There * he repeated it would he the duty of that Chair to have called the. lion. Baronet to order. Is this libel so oh. seem and doubtful, as that. it should be adjourned over ? No; argument the Hon. Baronet had left aside, and launched at once into a libel on the House of Commons; a libel monstrous in itself, and made up of vituperative language : " Inflated with their hieh-blnwnfattrieti ideal b ilf Majesty, and tricked out in the trappings of Royally,'*— What can the If Bart. mean by this.? He knew of net trappings but the mace on the table ; and did he arraign this ?--lle should conclude, he said, by reading another passage: " One cannot, with such impteKinns in nn.!'s mind, help est tertainittz a fear that the Gentlemen of the nausea Commons may, in time, unless they revert to the great principles of the Citte•titutimt, be in danger n incurring the temente of St. Paul !item the insolent and tyrannical High Priest, who command:4l him to be truck for opening his month in hit own defence.—" Gtidshall smite thee thou whited wall: for titt , st thou to jinie me after. the law, and commandest me to be omitten contrary to the law 7" What does the Hon. Bart.. mean " revert ?" Can it be explained ? if criticism could turn aaWe the sting of the libel, the adjournment eT s *CA ' would tint he sufficient for the. purpose, . • .• Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY thought the Home • . call 11 on, out of respect to their own Character, to &liberate longer before they croe to any decision in this case. *Though they were' here lodges from nor sir 'et let Or ttbt forget that itley, were ecessity, Judge in their 'ipwn atitse. This' Was a dine at which they were called:On not sharply to catch at every copposed or etsperwat violatioti of their poi. vileges, but to prOtect them with temper arid Mo. ' deration, never overstepping the tiheial'amt ,stantial ;Isles of justice. With all the pains he,nad been abin 49 bestow, in the short period.he had it in his potter, on the reading or the putilicatiwa in y61 4 1601', he had considerable doubt in declaring that it was a WI. If he should be compelled to come to a vote on it That night, he mhst, on every principle of law , soil from considerations arflutbstantial justice, as practised in the Courts in which he.had .been educated, say' that it was not, because so lung as he remained in dirubt, he must, of necessity, incline to-the side of inno. - , mice. He was not a person to conic to the deci. siert of a qiiestiowof this kind with that sharp re— tort, and with that heated temper, which some Gentlemen seemed to have 'brought along with them. However Gentlemen seemed to &vita his assertion, he begged of them to come to the de. cisitin of the question now before then' with tem- ' per and moderation. There was not a man who . wished more than lie did to hold a high-cheek over attacks on the privileges of that House. So far, he Wever, from protecting their privileges, by now acceding to the proposed Resolutions, he was sa. fished that to do so would have a contrary effect. He was told that the House was not to listen to language of intimidation. He con. fesscd that lie had not courage, considering what had lately passed at the numerous great meet. imp throughout the co entry, in which , opi. *lions, in many instances unanimous ones, on grand public ques‘ionsi• wore declared contrary to the decisions of that Hone, to contend that the majority of that House must be correct, and the great body of the nation wrong, or to set up his own opinion, had he originally formed one in those majorities, against the vuioe of the nation. The House was now proceeding, however, to dis. X9lO of. the prestintliseetien, Without tieing aEcu. rattly acquainted with the true hature and bearing of it. No thought he should be able to satisfy some Gentlemen, Who seemed auxions to come to an immediate decision on the question, that this was the case ; and that if they were at this moment to decide it on the facts as they uoderstood them, they would deride contrary —to- the true impart and meaning of the very passagee on which their decision was built. An Hon. Gentleman under the gallery Itatl,-as the ground of his opinion, cited a particular paragraph from the ar,onetit in goes, tion, giving it an interpretation which it is until not bear, and withoof weighing the impart of D, after a cursory reading, asked was not this and this libellous ? The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Owen) had construed the passage to which he entitled, as if it char ' the Hie - with cur - vetting, the Bin of Rights into a Bill of Wrongs ;. whereas, if the Honourable Member had pervis4tilk the passage attentively, he would have found it' stated' that no one blember agreed with Mr. Yorke in imprisoning Mr. Jones under sstic-• tion of the Bill of Bights. If the house had agrees!. with the Honourable Gentleman under the gallery, in his interpretation of the passage, they mast have taken it for granted, that this was the decision of the whole house. This was a strangii, anJestravagant construction to have i;is en the • regraph, ail, he Was convinced, the Hop,G enN tle. man wou ld admit after again pe rus i ng it, o surely,. after seeing this high er ror i nto which be Wino ranee, the Honourable. Gentleman alwit ni ve l ' that the consideration of th e „ ewe should be postponed. He was convinced N u the Honourable Gentleman, hiving for ye ars 41 of the' same profevsion with him (Sir S. komilly), would deplore what might hare b een the dm' „r i - . 0 rash and precipitate a judgment. it e begged to call to tho recollection of th' e t o , wk.* mac tho ttrnmetskinti thou 2•70 Called on guilty of a '4,7414;0f the prltgehjiailesegt :esitownefa7taaltsatbi;elaitciiutibeie.; ati).;loPtlPtt: the w ege " 1 : 1:11 tnn (7:1 1 11 i 5 e ;41 ,1 t71e .11.... 1 1 . 1e b u e u l Learned Gent. would Dot pretend to say, t hat the pulilitation waw nut a Mitt,. bad rgielenn.fesi. he entertained a doubt on that point . et. p „b liti; Linn might be a libel in its matter, nest in ill manner.. Any man has a right tO discus s Meat ceinetitutional question, 'whether o f p urrtt or of constituted authority. He might s-ow ha• fully in arguing a paint in - which no wh et mail would agree wi th , him, but still he had a rieht do so. There might , be inflammatory lang l i are i: ' ;argued with g the paper in qrnee:ttiangilbliklty",t'aantdllaiellgathin:gtritn:t.'aitt:tlho.'.; • rities and precedents on the Inject were given argued on with great learning. This was a g „, e argument, and God forbid that any man should be precluded (ruin discussing such a subject. T io question then was, if there were not in that pa. per offensive paragraphs ? lie agreed that the n were; but, then, did they ntitount to a libel ? [,/ Sort of laugh from the Ministerial Beach] e e dared to say that Gentlemen much• better aepoint. ed with the nature of a libel than he could pretee to be, would be prepared to answer this Tut firm, and he should be obliged to sortie of than tofavour the House with an opinion on this su b . rct The paper said, that the right assumed totals& selves by the House was contrary to Map Charta mud Gentlemen objected that rosy, parts of it were conceived in strong las. loop. Why should there not be strong gunge in arguing a . qttestioth of great cot. • sequence, involving the rights of the Poltlit • add the Constitution of the Country ? Was fie Ifonse called cm to interfere,and to nienute not tla nature and quality of the langtiage - to be used is every such discussion ? Surely UNA' not on such nice matter% as iheee•that the• Home should be eat. led on to judge? He !lisped the House would not suppose that he :meant .to enter iato a defence of this paper.. He only meant lo state his doubt's, whet low that House ought to take op this marls a libel on which they were to judge. It rarely MI •to•ltis lot to sit in a judicial character; but sn far as he could judge on this matter, be was not pre. pared to vote in sit:sort of these itcsolutions... ,'re were, sat; he had niread r y said, offensive pe. ~wagraphs in the Paper, but he could not view Om in 'the mischievous light iii which some gentle** h'ad been induced 'to Conceive them. The pm. graph in' which the Hause is stated to 6 6 assume :he sword of prerogative, and lord, le egislly ' , over the Kind and the People," had been pare. cularly dwelt on, as containing matter . highly objectionable. lie -could hardly siiw.4ll, this light. The Hon. Baronet might perfibildlatiasd• fcnec at his observation, but he coukteit help conceiving the paragraph as altogether nonsense. As to mischief, he could not conceive how it could arise. It was impossible that the idea of that House lording it over the King could produce any injurious effect. Could any person, not an ideot, or fit to be sent to a mad-house, be deceived by such an idea ? Where had that Honieeter crOached on the royal prerogative ? There WM other passitges objected to, such aS'fin eliminate. tha " manner in which that House was eoltdiv' (whet," and that, they were 66 collated. top the by means whiCh it is not necessary for me to de. scribe." • He would ask the Gentlemen ems site as Learned Lawyers to say, if the lionour. able Baronet Were to be indicted for these sb. jeetionable- paragraphs, how the charge would, be laid ? Where was the inuendu ? Ile recollected a case of this kind, cvltere an Honourable, Gen.; tleman on the opposite side was on theside 0(04 prosecution, 'and he (Sir S. Romilly) for the Dr fend ant, and there, because there was nu iambs the case was dismissed. There was a taatter,! which he wished to call the attention .of I 'w House.. They were called on to vote tbuslibdv in a very singular situation. For; if this Welke law of the House of Commons, a mai *Or punished by this House when be has not be heard. This was not the law in any COurt in tht . kingdom. lit ally of - our Coatis, when aOr indicted, after the mischievous tendency of the li bel is pointed out, he has an opportunity of shewin6. that such is not the tne.liting of it; he is allowed lu show what its meatkiikg actually Isl' And li st i though it may adalit of the meaning gieen . iln the part of the ' prosecution, stilt that n„ 111 _,.. meaning hoilttended it r e ceive. Ir. the person accused has no such opportuellfs The paper is read; and - then •he is ordered itfidea w without being bean). He did noire , . to i): a that this s eras mu tire, as a o with that of the ( ntlti)eatqt:ile:tittelititsaed "' winffiit'tlh itsP i i a c f h li h ani tie nelerrval‘.-0:: accustomed to practice. Iledid not even.tocavt., I/ay that this was not -the proper courst' they were to. purst,c; this mode, when they the * " vele• s were the party, they should, "If! 3". deliberately : and if they could not ca ll the II" . • Baronet before them, to hear his ex e . a tiatio care, the objectionable passages, they should tolt , e_ at least, that all justice .was done . 1 ; fir t x . gi ven admitted yesterday, that tine should _,. at deliberation. N o w, th ey * ere e a ea insider had been dune since,. and what time l' ad it ll ; tervened; which timid mishit: the 1 1,1 " 1e 1° 0( ana made . Iltemselvve inure complete masters °f Ise,. subject ? Would. Gentlemen ventnte"'% l Met those patiges, which had beemolvjert.,_sti.ii might teetnimit,of a very different Weer ° Co . after this Hivese•had hail tinffideni ;i n " cider them ? • If. had alreai;• PfiVrel in tee e . 4114 son of the Learned Gentleman under big Mr. Owen),. tha Ir ene vati,l bide Lion frio ►imv ... . 3 4 ill WI RI to, ►' rxi