The Statesman. — London, England, 1822-06-15 00:00:00

'7% , I " qqA kcji.A44) • LONDON, 8 T 1419,f JUNE NIIIIIIIZR 5369 lAIPSKIAL PAILI/MgdYr. HOUSI Or LORDS, Fauna, Joss 14. Tbs Reeogaisaaess 11111 was lea a third dais sad passel!. The Hamm, of DOWNSIIIRB pesereted a smith)s from an iodividcal etempinisiag of ate lojory dose tit, him the Commimisame be eimakeg Paddle Ite•' steeds by ha Imbed.. The Noble Masques hyped that his Majosty's fieveremeat small laspdee iota the mat ex. pewee whit') the ends, had best pet S. by she Comrade. disown I. tieeelies.--Tbopelltlen we ordered a Ile ea the table. Tito Duke of NORTHUMBSIBLAND presented a po lid...free Newcastle, ageism& any aileredoe hubs Navin titian Laws. The Bishop d SL DAVID'S pimentod six petitiole maims the Ctstiselle Bill, from Wawa bodies of Clergy le his diesome. Tier/—.idea Bill weememaltted. Ify_J.Gleastair end Ifs T. ilemearta hosseal op roe Bine fres she Geseesea The earl of DARNLEY eherved that beim he mi tered isle the dieweesielt tithe lagmleasteeades which stomll: 4 4 :s ereeleg. be wished* oaf Mittalleetion of their is the tellgent ßtridowleKONete•in s, Irelaad ; the soonest apeman 'fetish to lewd 7 'ie receive ialleramidoo from the • Noble Hall opposite. • - - The Keel wormaPooL sia.lhot Awe the nbjeet had been lam !Woe& fogaleies 44 bona mode respect. • tug the amen .ef the trestrese that had Woe mitered Wm by Govormeest, with es holhillual is Wolin, and mew eorrespoieleece hod taboo pion the Noble Lord might move foe the sereeepookompelf Ls dose. STATII 0/ tent.eas. The Order .1 the Day for sweaminieg their Lord ship* being reed. The liminess of LANSDOWNE roes to bring for ward the motive of which be bad even aotice. After all the asestrances that bad bon bold out at diffenot on the part of Government, that the affairs of Ireland should be fully muslierodi he felt that he should stand acquitted in the eyes of their Lordships sod of the page. If he railed their attention to this important gesstlea. ',speeder whiab so plan of Set. Hoodoo or relief bad yet been proposed. In addition to the distress suffered by the agrimaltural and mann factor-Mg imamate. Ireland was cow suffering sushi gated evils. He should. however, ea IWII W 41161011 /omit the meltsl of ellstrenee. widish Wen 001"6" to ho h mammies, sad moans himself to others that were peculiar to the state of Ireland, *Melt were ammo rattled by misfortunes that did let belong to any other 'may. He geoid appeal to the mitoses is to robs ado/ of this statembeet. Dario; the lam toady years. the Lairislatamt had repeatedly snared ed the Trial by Jury. and le lam, tie whole Celestite ties le i reload ; pod gives *degree of arbitrary power to illeitsimatee. Whisk wee oohs ieoesehoeet with the' kapplasecat asty 'people. What them tiler, which mast be well known to their Lordships, were coma *red, ha would ask whither they did not feel it ae mesary to go into an Jimmie" , roapeetlng the state of that country. Would sot their Lordships be antis asceitala why It happened that he eatives were the meet wretched people in the world? Was that cele stite*. state of thins owing to bey fatale, situation? Was it owing to her temperate climate. sad to her pee wising advantages in point of Rewired** most f able to maa ? Was it bemuse sim wse blessed by Pro vidence with so many physical advriatars, that she was simrably-poor in the midst of sarroundiag wealth? The people were not oily wretched, bet they were discootreted sod rebellious—while soder the sanction of a Constitution. whose boast it was to afford prem. Lion sod tranquillity to all the subjects. He felt that is tithing this view of the rate o[l:Asstd. it would be in vai., to throw any stigma uponparticalar classes of society ; fur the evils could nut hie attributed to the coadect of any particular set of poring, however im proper their coaduct might have bee,. In viewing the state of Ireland, the Bret thing their Lordships ought to cussider was, the rapidly bnreasieg papal'. tim e sad the consequences resaltini from it. Is the year 1695, the population of Ireland was so more than 1 ,034.000 souls; fur 1804, it was 6,400,000; sad in 1821, it was 6,846,000, an increase almost unpa ralleled in the bit tory of any e•entry. Ott of ail eserasess &moue', it was calculated that no more than sae fourteenth part were of the Lets hlisbed Church. she rest being Diesenters and Catholics. It was sot merely far the purpose of pointing oat the physical stresgth of the couutry that he called their amnion le this increase of population; bat is order to show that, contrary to the political omits that bad st alest always prevailed, this vast increase of Inhabit asts was su indication of wealth. Ott the contrary. h was, in this instance, unhappily tree, that the Po' lodation of. cowry might go oa increasieg, obi). its wealth was decreasing. It was owiag to that very dreamstaace, that the people of Del totl. tooeloff ii is a state of perpetual degradation, were forced down teach a wretched state of existence, that potatoes casstituted their principal source of life throughout the year. Individual., after being dri ten from all the lemforts of life. thought themselves jutified in con rearriares when they had no other than a Precarious means of support. It was owing to that state oftlegradation among the peasantry of Ireland, that such shocking scoops were witoemml for a leer tint in that country. which bad exhibited the last de en of Lama; want aid misery. lodged, all the cir raottances which could degrade a people in their 0 4 a estimation existed there. Ii other eeentries there ttisted an artificial bounty on populatios ; bet hem it home a more, of political slavery.—(Hear. hole) The object of 'waves or holders of laud had bees to testaarage the number of wretched votersby the mock ity ofpreteaded freeholders, and afterwards to con ten thew Into sieves, in order to answer electioneer. hf InirPottre. This system was advoree to all essential 11 4 1 •Temests. A practice, for Instance, et letting halo is commas to. several joint unapt. existed to a ulter beyond all caleniadoe the object was Lrt d all th est persons might swear that they held I Shilli ng. freeholds; and thou they were boned ..,!° . aed veto a s e t aat t aaa , as they should be - " ri d °Y the persons tram whom they bold the lands. - N.: Ce • g c.', Srirc‘ ..xl.ll. '" Y• t ' . . IA k . .% 4 .1;4 %'. . \%. t 1 , ' d ' C! 1,/ .: V• ..... 4 ,4 . -vs eBtlti, 1 \ - elsmano .7.:. -..,.. Zbt ~ . ,A ~ oe, gatemt-,(1. PRICE SEVEN PENCE . 1 proprietors and meths (lowermost. sad this was a me• whit emsaideration to be borne ie mind on vimein-t the state of Inlaid.. If their Lordships looked to the Censtitetiou of the eimmEry and applied it to the three kingdoms--Englaed, Ireland. sad Sentient', if would be 'mod that Filmier eirpresentation prevail. ed in Inlaid -in the highest sod i• Semiarid in the least degree. Their Lordships kuew there was very flute popular representation in *attend, and that of Inlaid far mewled the popular teptesentaties of Englead. - A Noble Lord in the eilm House of Par Ilareent.introsleeod a, plan of Riley.,, which he (Lord Liveepeol) however, was-very glad did sot seeeeed, het which, la its application, mead have given t greeter degree of uprise representation to Deltoid than to either legievid or Scotland. Is that ess • Ireland had no placate* to template of. as she ea joved the fell Inuit of the BMW, Constitation.— Aids( with Ali, she was ID pomade* of the whole - te priatiple of the law' of England; ski bad trial by • Sy, a , jery and the irdepeedence of the Judges ; and if be were to judge from the entail number of appeals whids mune before their Lordships, there was me reuselfils Purpose that justice was set administered there emit fair and jut principle, as here. In this view, whe ther be looked to the Constitution or the adminis tration of the laws, or what appeared to be the feelings of the people, which he admitted amnia be regarded with tendernese, be could net dis• sever that the evils arose from the hostility which the absence of these blessings ought naturally to excite; neither did they tripe front a desire of Reform; smelt feelings did not appear to Wight the people of Ireland. Then to what puree mold the evils be traced? Me believed solely to the internal slat. of society—the relation is which the peasantry etooa to the leaded proprietors. The Nultle Lent hims-af a dosi ted the extent of the population, the fertility of the soil. and the wealth Impartibly eoneeeted with that fertility; yet it was considered England, with a population vt 14 millions, paid 50 millions of taxes, while Ireland oe'v paid 4 millions, could it be said that the horde-in tut posed on Ireland were excessive or intolerable, or more than she could hear ? Ireland certainly suffere..: a considerable distention of property on the refute of peace; and when it Is recollected that the sloth of Ireland Wetly furnished oar naval supplies during the war, on the termination of which the demand ceased, it must be admitted as a great nose of the tree* which has since prevailed in that part of Ireland. If then the cause of the distress arose in a great de gree from the redaction of tip editor., which was at tra4ed with a redaction of demand, ought the Noble Marquess, ander these depollute. to complain sod throw the unsafe on Oomtrarattat ? Did their Lord ships forget the state of the National Debt of !relent. sod how, Ireland beige enable to pay It, England had take* the budes en herself. Then hod mil, one a tight to say. that every generous consideration was sot Wended to Ireland, in apportioning the burdens et the two reentries? The Noble -Marcum made some observational, os the laws in force is Ireland evilest illicit distillation. Ile would inform their Lordships, these laws were found so good, they pro duced meth habits of elmiety amongst the peasantry, that all the Iris% Members of Parliament, with net exception of, he believed, three or four, voted for their -• enactment. The question reelected with the state of the Magistracy of Ireland, 'te which th e No. ble Marquess adverted, w a s a very serious on.. and so cossetted with another important (tort den, that it might to be treated with great deli cacy. On the effect of absenteeabip in point of political mensomy. whether large fortunes drawn (root Ireland ought to be expended there or not, he would offer no opinion ; because there was a great and para. mount cousideratton which outweighed every other in his mind, namely—the moral effect of resident proprietors ; ai.d jet the absence of these was incidental to the situa tion of Ireland. There the land has passed from genera tes witheut the tenants knowing any thing more of their lied' •rd than his Dame. The agents necessarily became Magistrates; but it was in-vain to expect that they could administer tha law with that authority and effect which would be attacked to tbe landlord himself if he were resident. The Noble Marquess complained that few Cathodic. were appoisted Magistrates; but he be lieved there was no ground for that complaint, and that at pretest there were a considerable number of that religion Magistrates. lint if there were any call, in which justice were not fairly dealt, he was swig• lied. on a complaint to the Lord Lierpostit, it would be immediately redressed. Whatever might he the imperfection of the state of the Magistracy, which he would not deny. it was new in the progress of refer matins by the Noble Lord at the head of the Law De partment in that country. He now came to the great question of the tithes. And beforeeaterin; into it, he must sinew epos the basis that the right of tithe o-as as sacred us the right by which any ether description of props ty was held. The proprietors of land could poly dry es nine-teethe of it, and that alone bad not hue de is dto them. The rem. I ling tenth part he- Legal as rightfully I. the church, or to the lay im proprietor. Of the resilient clergy is 'relied he would say that they were, generally lecithin', the most esefel to their country 01 any body of men which it contained. He was one of those who thought tithes to he uo evil; and he considered the observations of the Noble Lard rather to boar epee another qamtion it weal to the unmated subdivision of properly. I 3 this country a elereyonan possessing a year, would perhaps bare to collect it fro n Viirty or forty pensions; in Ireland a elarrymaa would have to collect the same sum front perk ps 1,301, Individuals, they thing the very poorest of his parish imams, and the set 7 eolnetple•Ce was that he aims be engage I is (Indies. I Options, or not his tithes at ad. He would ask their Lordships what was the natural remedy for this? He would say, let the property pay the tithe; let the proprietors lea.. the tithe to the farmer, and that tumid re Hews the evil. Of the different evils complained of, none :livened to hint so great as the extreme subitiv.sion of pi-open/ in Ireland. In this country they had seen toe progress of civilization and haPpinetis begin ,There that sub• division of property reared, anti its totisulitlatiut: pr. • ceeded to a mists .stoat.—As this system lIJW opers.ed _••• --_= " 716 Caw fbr which HAMPININ fill fe eh. mai RIMS? 4fe4 vie NW &NINA if" He Led known an butane, of me lees than *laity par lous huts( freeholds on one farm. and twenty wee the common number ea one feria. With an the respect, which he eatertaleed for the privilege of the elicits fraoebise, he thought that the right of voting should be cataloged to ewe penes epee one farm. He &Mild next advert to the satire of the hardest; under wkids the peritonea of Ireland were suffering. Here tlie. Noble Warless. entered Ist* eakelations to eftleet, that IN properties as Warned taxes bad bees 10-1 pond se the people of inked. sod the Magee, bell , ben sefferloqt a &Minnow below that whisk existed previous to the nudely bevies' bon i apnea. fled he meet berg observe that the increased dunes were laid epee tea.. anger mod other articles of a similar tried. by whkh the eamforte of thole's,. omits were diminished. 'amt. their progress towards 'Willesden. let odd. As great ern myth ones fens ila• OPland Meshes, Mtn the *yaws nmdt itialleithall: eollfieb geneitell all ever the Wised. Their Lamle might judge of the temptation afforded by heavy duties to pursue this practice. when be told deem Sat. emmedlog to the 'MOOS ealculatiee. for every alas people laid out on Illicit ollatilialtensa aan ••• 14 1 marls twootyoomon pounds. Every illicit distillery boom a spirit for disaffection, and the system was encouraged by landlords, because by means of it, they were enabled to obtain higher rents for their leads.— in cossequotece of this praetiee the prisons of the esteetry wore filled with offenders. During the last six years, 5332 persons were committed for ;Melt distlllatina; sad of these, 3263 hail been couvieteg. Thus did bad laws generate a host of offender*. law were always ready to raise the standard of rebellion. He should newt advert to the administration afjostico In Ireland. Is the admirable work of Sir Jelin Da vin, he said there wag es nation which would rest better satisfied with the just administration of the law obis the Irish. New if there existed is !relied a spirit of resistance to the existing laws. it was 6t that an inquiry should he made as to the maaaer in widish those laws were pet is force. Ho did not mess to throw eat any reflection against the Judges of Ire- Wed ; but it wee well knows that the Magistrask of I relied was is a most imperfect state; that natty an al most without Site means of subeistense were in the cow valesiou Wan pease. and diatom* of them werele a state to be seat to past. Some time age as applicatioe bed been made to him to relieve the sea of a Magistrate. who happened to be in distress, end he afterwards Wend the person to be so far an imposter, that al though his father was a Magistrate, he was actually In • state oT bankruptcy. It was then • subject of the meet serious enteidersolie for the . Leglalatere to see that the execution of the laws sshheouullid net be is nested to such men. He wished to knew Worthen was an a Leger proportion of Canaille Magistrentila Ireland, la proportion to the Catholic property of the country. This was toot the fart, therefore impartial justice was not dealt out to the people ; and the Ca liche population must necessarily be dissatisfied en dor snob a state of things. Such was the effect of taxation is Ireland. that it went to shut oat two •irds of the population from the means of obtaining Justice. On of the greatest grievances was the moor mess expense of stamps on la* proceedings, which bad increased two-thirds since the Union, and ope- rated as a 'total exclusion of justice. To illustrate this be would state that, in consequence of the hopes sanity of obtaining justice by civil processes, a sin gular end whimsical practice had been resorted tw— in the west of Ireland, when a dispute arose about the possession of land. • seen of not took place. This became the subject of a criminal proceeding; the parties who indicted each other were tried in the Court of the Assistant Barrister, end the property was adjudged to those in whose favour • verdict of not guilty was given. On the subject of absentees, he must say that he did not think the country could be ranch impoverished by the absence of landlords. But, unfortunately, .tbe incomes of many gentlemen were spent on this side of the ebonite' ; het a plan should be adopted to make it the interest of Irish gentlemen of fortune to live in Ireland, and that their safety should be insured while they were there. He should next come to the subject of tithes , and he wished to remind their Lordships that the population be had just alluded to was, in addition to all its other hard- Op:burdened with a tax the least congenial to their feelings, the most oppressive, and one of the most re welting that could he conceived ; a burden which was the most oppressive in times of the greatest distress; oe impost levied on land, when that load produced no advantage to the cultivator. Their Lordships' Woo tton was imperiously called to this impost, with a view of adopting some remedy. He bad no intention *feast ing any inmetatioe on the great body of the clergy ; bat he complained of the power they possessed, and of the odium which the system necessarily threw open them. He knew that in many isthmus individual tier gyre's had renounced their actual rights in times of great distress, from motives of humanity; while the avaricious clergy bad the power of exercising extorties and opprression over the poor of the country. A return had been made of tithe proceedings in Ireland. As snot • the same proportioa to have takes place in the counties from which no enures bad yet been received. the number for all Ireland in the period of six years, and exclusive of those tried in the Ecclesiastical Course. mast have amometeel to 17,327. The Noble Marquess then took a view of the mode in which tythes were col lected in Ireland. A law existed in that country, by which, if three farmers give notice the saute day to clergyman tit* they intended to set out their tithes, that notice was to be deemed a conspiracy, and to be punished as such. Nothing could be said more severe against the whole system thee that it required to he sup ported by a law so iniquitous sod tyrannical. Ns did , not charge all the clergy of Ireland to avail themselves of that law, they were too liberal to do it, but yet the law existed and might be put in force. Tlse tithes was also most unequivocally raised. In name intones they attached to potatoes, and is others they did not, so that mach confusion prevailed on the subject. With an im post se unequal, so levied. and which afforded as el& meet remuneration may to the litigious part of the cler gy. it oust he an object of equal importance to all that means shoal.' be provided for its consmotatios. He was sore that he should sot have to erweenter from any Wale Noble Lords or of the Right Rev. Prelates in that house. any doctrine in favour of the existence of tithes (minded o o soy thin of a diets, right, for be foetid in a book published at the very period of thmiliefersestios by the solkotity- sf the Bishops and of Quetta Elizabeth, by .h.. a .terApwse printed, and mottled .* Expeettioia if se." that one of the greatest errors of the Cbsoth of Rome was the opinion that tithes were fogad. ed es ya i via* right. Re conceived that the amount of the possessed by the Church of Ireland might exist is • manner not oppressive to the . but emssonant with its interest, and what he same, be should ks the following points i n #. , —aot to propos any pri nciple of commutation ' to ' . se a ti th e pewiteister, TA R would not himself gladly 1 Width wadi mat leave the Church of Ireland sane relative stale of wealth and respectability - It sow possess ed , or which would m i eke is il eed mol i e r Zildeelleonantlyet'esoadt: t ha n m a altren7twsti was. less. 4 dependent' Alin wee. he would prefer it. What be would tomes wield be whether by • valuation of corn, as is Scotland, by mons of a ewers Jury, the tithes might not be pat tetHate money, oa an average of the five or six pre per, bowing to clergymen the same degree; which they sow enjoyed. • With a view. to Ireland, it would be as impeovemest Heath a cent-emu were paid by the proprietor, sot the occupier °flaw!, and it would also be advastageous to provide these proprie tors with the means of redeeming the payment of that rest, by allowing them to purchase land, antl.to settle it spas the church in lies of the impost, which would thus be extinguished for ever. A precedent of this kind had 'eaned when a Bill passed through that boase with oat lay opposition from the Noble Lord on the Wool sack, allowing the parish of Clifton to purchase an estate the Clergyman, and thus exonerating the parish from tithes for ever. In Ireland there motif - he no objection levities clergymen in the situation of land-owners, 10,1 t would emir tend to **crease their respectability Is theopinion of the people. A barthen woe now cast es the Catholic peasantry, who were forced to pay fiat the rebuilding of Protestant churches and chapels. —{Hear.) Now he had heard it said that a new valuation of first-fruits would produce the means of re building Protestant churches and exonerating the Ca tbolic _peasantry from a charge which could not be other wise than oppressive to them. The first fruits had not been valued since the time of Queen Alin...nod, he un derstood, produced less at present then a; that period. A sew valuation wu therefore advisable; and the more se, if it could have a military effect on the interconr.e which most subsist between the Protestant Incumbent aad the Catholic peasastry is Ireland. The . Noble Mar. =then called upon thole Lerdebipe to transport Ives in imagination from the metropolis to a dis tant parish in framed, and to watch the operation of all the evils to which the people were subjected, when de prived of their natural protection, exposed to temptation and earning their subsistence by the infringement of the law. He once more Blinded to his Majesty's visit to Ireland, and 'infested their Lordships to make it an epoch in the history of diet country, by cosquerieg all prejudices, and procootfirg and continuing ilk a coarse of wise and temperate begislation. He then moved the tofioiriag Resoled's:— Is That it is the opinion of this boom that the state of indeed indispensably requires the immediate atteotioa sitlittltament, with a vied to improve the condition of its popelatios, and more effectually provide for its train iisillity and domestic happiness." The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt as deeply as any of their Lordships could do, the importesee of the sob jeet now before their consideration, and his feeling of that importance had, if possible, been augmented by the fair, temperate, and candid manner in which it had been brought forward by the Noble Marquess.— If he objected to the proposed resolution, it would be !meanie there was no necessity for their Giirdshir adopting it, and because it implied a censure upon the Noble Lord now at the bead of hip Majesty's Go vernment in Ireland; and he should not meet it by a decided negative, but by moving the previous ques tion. Before, however, he pursued each a con • ,hr felt himself booed to look miestely and attentively at the state of Ireland at the present moment. Before deciding spoalla remedy, they were bound to look at the real cause; therefore their Lordships ought nut to proceed until they bad examined well the sources of the evils. First, they most look to see whether the evils complained of grew out of the relation which existed between the °overeating end She governed ; and secondly, wbetber they grew out of the relative in which those who labourell for their daily bread, stood to the owners of the property of such county. In those souotries whose history formed their early study, in all the contests between the rich and the poor, between plebians and patricians, where liberty was in every Haas's month, it would be found that the great avast of the population were in a state of slavery. Is modern times they did not want similar examples, aid It became their Lordships to look into the rela. tine which subeist,d between the Government and the governed ; and also between the poor and those who possessed the property of the land. lie did nor mean to say.that this was partirelsrly applicable to , the entire situation of Ireland, but lie advanced it as being illustrative of the principle he had laid down; and if the state of Ireland were attentively examined • it would be found that nine tenths of the evils which afflicted it, proceeded from no other cause than from the relation in when the peasantry stood to the property of the country. In this opinion he was supported by the whole history of Ireland. With the exception of the Rebellion in 1789, the object of which was to introduce a Preach army fur the par pest orsevering the conn.ction of the twe countries, all other insurrections were against the property of the country and not against the Government. Tin tftis was the object of the late insurrection no dont,' ' soda be entertained. The Noble Marquess alluded to his Majesty's visit and the good which it effected Their Lordships were aware of the enthusiasm with which his Majesty was received, and the feeling and eentialeats which that visit excited, and yet bit. Ma jesty had no sooner left,--say, while his foot still lie. gored on the soil of that country, the disturbances had already commenced. Farther, his Lordship had sees a letter is which it was stated, that even if his Ma jesty had visited Limerick at the very height of the disturbances, be would bare been received with as much enthusiasm as be had been on his first landing; and if the proclamations and papers issued by the de hided peasantry were sees, it world be found that use even the name of Government was mentionfd.— Them circumstances he mentioned to show that ivies:. realest la that country were directed spigot the landed ,1 U ~.. .:9 11 r :„