The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-04-14 00:00:00

F the point of possessing himself of the whole pe. niosula of Spain, the ports of which were so pe culiarly well sitnated for making a descent on Ire land, the weakest and most vulnerable part of the United Empire; on which there could be no doubt but be kept 'watchful cud a longing eye, and which he would unquestionably use every cx. erticm to accomplish. The lion. Gentleman con cluded a long and able speeclt, of which it is only in our power to give a sketch, by mein— '. That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the manner in which Tythes are collected in Ireland, and to re port the same to the Home." Which having been read from the Chair, Mr. W. POLE declared, that there was no one more anxious to seek some way of regulating the Tythes in Ireland than he was ; however he found it impossible to agree with the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman. It tia• injurious to give the people of Ireland an idea of relief without showing the clear way to obtain it ; and, indeed, he was astonished that after a pelted of so many years, during which the Honourable Gentleman had been con sidering the nature of tythes, he should now refer to authorities to validate his assertions.— Notwithstanding his view had been imperfect, he had asserted that the Clergymen were never op pressive themselves, but that oppression was to be attributed to their Proctors alone ; in this he wits mistaken. The fact was, that in Ireland it is ens. !ornery for landholders to cant their lands to the hlghest bidder, exclusive of the consideration of incuinbrances ; ignorant persons then bid for the lands without recollecting the Tythes ; eventually the landlord come. down on his tenant for the rent, who Is disabled thus from covering his Tythes. The landlord, therefore, and not the Clergyman, is the oppressor : this had long been under the consideration of his Majesty's Ministers. The Honourable Gentleman had said that the Corn and Leasing Tythes were not sufficient. Whatever change might take place, there was never any idea but of securing the rights of the Clergy. Ile would state ano. ther obstacle : in every calculation it appears that they, on an average, receive only the one-twee. tieth, and in many places the one-thirtieth • how would it be possible to afford any relief then, if we were to set out en the basis of their receiving the one.tenth ? This was an objection which could not be got over, and ho deprecated the idea of the business going to a Committee. There was another obstacle, which was, that no two parts of the country pay in the same way : some pay Tythes for potatoes ; others do not. The great cause of dissatisfaction arose not be.. cause the Clergy got more than their dims, but be *suss the landlords did, who pinched their tenants, and urged them to object against the Tythes.— With respect to titi leasing of Tithes he believed it to be impracticable; in order to ascertain some particulars relative to this, he wrote to the curate of the parish in which his house Minds, and found that 1937 persons paid tythes : but lest ho should think the income exorbitant, he added, what proved to be true, that 3-fourths of them paid only from one to two shillings a year. If an Incum. lent had it in his power, he would let the lands to what are called Middle-men, and thus perhaps in the end the Tythe would be increased hum one to five shillings, and upwards. lie disapproved of the intention of making the Catholic, pay, as it were, iu a secret manner ; this project he believed to be totally impracticable. The Bill to enfure the re. sidence of Clergymen, in a great measure obviates the evils arising from the oppression of Latidlords. If the Hon. Gentleman had moved for leave to bring hi a Bill, he would have been happy to have discussed it. The Right Hon. Gentleman declared, that if be was to accede to the motion far going ikt - . aataben of those wbo paid tythcs in Ireland were so siserablipoor, that they were actually pan. pen, and if in this country would be sent to the parish. He knew he might be charged with an attempt to invade the rights of the Protestant Clergy, but he had no such design ; he meant to give them a compensation equal to their tythes. His plan was, to Inn • return made of the ac tual net produce of all the livings in Ireland, and according to the sum annually received by each Protestant Clergyman, the same sum should be paid to him by a tax on the Catholics and Dissent. _ ‘rs as a compensation ; and this, when collected, would not appear to them to be paying tythes, Ind would be free from all those vexatious modes which now attend their collection, and which are continually resisted. It would be the means of restoring peace among the people, and would be a real benefit to the Clergy, many of whom did not now receive a tenth, nor any thing like it.— Tythes, he said, had been the foundation, and had given a spring to all the insurrections that had happened in Ireland. First, there was that of the White Boys, which lasted thirty years; then the United Irishmen. The insurrection in 1799 was occasioned by the Threshers, and was wholly owing to the collection of ty thee. If, therefore, tythei had been the cause of repeated insurrec. tions of nearly 60 years continuance, he thought there must be very good grounds for the Ilotise to inquire into the subjeqt. Ile begged to call to the recollection and attention of the House, that • one of the tneasures promised at the Union was an alteration of this system. Thu celebrated speech of the Right ll4n. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt), who was the author of the measure, delivered ow that occasion in this House, in which there was a .passage which held up tythes as a practical evil of great magnitude, that would be done away by the measure of thu Union, was printed at the ex. pence of Government, and industriously eircu. hated by them, by hundreds and thousands, throughout every part of Ireland, in - order to make It more palatable to the great mass of the people, by a promise that it should begot rid off. His true purpose, he said, was to appoint a Corn. tnittee to enquire into the mode in which Tythes were collected is Ireland, for the purpose, he hoped, of removing a great practical evil. Ile hoped the Right Hun. Gentleman opposite to him would not shut his cars against the just complaints of the people of Ireland, so lately disappointed Io the object of the Emancipation of the Cattle. i and thus further irritate their minds and feet. lugs at the very moment when Bonaparte was on r into a Cetami tee he phould be betraying his trust, because the Hbb. tentteman who desired the Com. Agee to be appointed had not ahewn any fact on', which to grant it, and by whisk tile object could' , be obtained. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that he mist ever regard the marked inattention of Ministertto every application.fur the redress of the Irish peo. ple upon this subject, as a gross+ breach of those pledges by which the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had contrived to accomplish the Union. But this pledge was not made merely by the Noble Lewd, but by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) whose successor the present Minister boasted of being, aye, and by the Right Honourable Gentleman himself (Mr. Perceval,) who, immedi. ately upon his succession to office, promised to take lip the business. The Right Honourable Gentleman, however, was contented to promise, and from Session to Session to renew that pro- mise, without any apparent intention to felfil it. The last speaker uow succeeded to the same aystem of promise, .and he very much feared he would succeed to the same system of Performance also. The Right Honourable Gentleman called upon the House to wait until next Session, and that then he might do something. But was it fair thus to deal with the people of 'lreland?- - and if they must wait, would the enemy wait also ! Would that enemy who was ever active in his hostility to the British Empire, decline to avail himself of the neglect of the En. glish Government to perform its engagements to the Irish People ? Would ho overlook the dis. content with which the severe oppression of the T,ythe System was perpetually corroding the mind of the Irish? This was a consideration to which that House onefit to. attend, cre it was-yet too late. They should take care to strengthen Iretaad, as Ireland was the vulnerable point, and that strength was best to by produced by removing the discontents of its unfortunate population. The people of that country had real ly been so very ill treated upon the subject of the motion, that it could not be too emphatically urged upon - the consideration of the House. At thu period of the Union, an act fur abolishing the Tythes of agistment was carried, became, accord. ing to the distinct declaration of a Learned Prelate in the Irish House of Lords, that measure must be carried as one of the conditions of on acquies cence in the Union. But the complete connuta. tion of Tythcs was also promised. The latter, however, not having been granted, the effect of the former was wholly to transfer the burthen of Ty then from the rich landed proprietors to the poor. It might be pretended, that there was no distinct pledge at the timl! of the Union to accede to a commutation of tythos. There might havebeen no written bond; but there was that which was equivalent to a bond in the minds of men of honour. There were pros. peels held out in various directions, and Fondles made by the highest authority, that a commutation of tythes should be one of the first consequences of the Union ; and *these very flattering pro. mises he could assert served to reconcile many to the adoption of that measure. Still it was pos sible that the same miserable expedient might be attempted with regard to these promises which had hetet resorted to upon the subject of-the Catholics.. flow the pledges to the Catholics had been evaded could never escape the recollection of that House, or the Irish nation. But the evasion was glaring. He could prove at the bar, as he had before otter. ed, that those pledges had been actually made. He could indeed show, by irrefragable testimony, how the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had managed the business—how the Catholics had received a solemn promise in one room, whilst a different pro., raise was made to the Protestants in another—and how the promises to both had been grossly vin. loted—how the Noble Lord " Kept the word of promise I. the ear, " Aga broke it to the hope." but although all the promises to the people had been disregarded, promises to individuals were rigidly fulfilled, and Ireland had in consequence tp deplore, among other evils, an absolute degra. dation of the judicial functioft. After expatiating further upon the flagrant delesion and imposition practised upon the Irish,' and repelling the impu. Winn of the Right. Hon. Gentleman upon the character of the Irish Gentry, asserting that he had himself sever let his land by CANT, or turned out an old tenant, the Right Hon. Baronet pro ceeded to animadvert upon the 'enaction and op pression to which the Irish poor were subject, in consequence of . the Tythes, and particularly the mode of their collection. The. Clergy of the Es tablisiled Church were themselves so- sensible of the nature of this grievance, that he knew them to be in general anxious for the establishment of a commutation. So much in fact did they feel upon the subject, that if they were not restrained by an apprehension "of giving offence to their superiors in Authority, many of them, with whom he was acquaiiited, wouldhain been emong the first to petition that House (orb Commutation. Tythes -were notoriously the perpetual cause of discontents in Ireland. It was in evidence before the Irish Government that the insurrection which took place in the county of Sligo in the year 1806, was actually occasioutd by the conduct cif Tythe 'Proctors. According to that evidence, the systeM of these harpies was to collect the parishoners at a public-house, and after they became intoiticated at their own expense, to get their signatures ke agreements, of which the poor ignorant pettple, were insensible of the meaning. Yet such agree. menus were enforced through the agency of tome pettifogging Attorney, who, of course, shared in the Proctor's spoil. The Right Honourable Baronet concluded with an animated exhortation to the House to take this grievons case into their deliberate consideration, and to enter lute the In. qeiry proposed. Mr. L. FOSTER rhonght would be useless and dangerous to go into the inquiry, unless there was a probability Of the result of tha inquiry be... Mg to produce something practicableto satisfy the expectationi which would be excited by it.. One third Of the tythis of Ireland were in thUhands of lay appropriators, and was a species of property as mach the subject of marriage aettleaesne as say -._.; :It - 1 -I " ,* „ - • did not wish to touch the present the church.—He would make it of any arrangement that was to be Tythes, though abolished, would nol income derived from a different source " • on• solir "Nee' ~-sa , •' • 111 . OW"' other. .He conceived that the beet way of reliei jag the poor from tote pressure they now felt, would be to restore under ;owe modifications the tythes of agisttaent ; aaa he thought the greatest enemies of Ireland were the Members of that Irish House of Commas, take voted those to be ene mies of their country that required the tythes of agistment: The consequence of exempting the pasture land of Ireland from tythes was, that the Clergy were obliged to look exclusively to what was cultivated for their subsistence ; and while the Nobleman's park paid no tythes, the cottager's potatoe garden was necessarily taxed much higher than it would otherwise be. Mr. HERBERT conceived that the mode by which tysites were levied in Ireland acted as a pee. mium to idleness, and a tax upon industry. He thought the idea of the Right lion. Gent. (Mr.W. Pule), about the principle of commutation, was unjust in the extreme. To say that an actual tenth of the produce, or one.fifth of the value of all the lands should be secured to about 1500 persons, for discharging duties that were not very burdensome, was a principle which could neither in justice or in reason be maintained. Mr. M. FITZGERA LD said, that he had been particularly directed by the county he represented (Kerry) to support this inquiry. In that county, tythes, and the abuses in levying them, were almost the only causes of dissatisfaction or tu mult. For tbo last 35 years, an expectation had been held out every year, of a reform in the sys. tem of levying tythes, and yet nothing had hither to been done. The inequality of the system of tythes in Ireland was most oppressive. The rich grazier paid nothing, but the poor cot tager was obliged to pay heavily.—.eHe had heard from a Gentleman in Norfolk, that five shillings an acre on. *heat was considered a high corn pensa (ion fur Tythes in th.t county. He could as sure the House, that in Ireland it was sometimes carried as far as two guineas an acre on wheat, and 365. an acre on potatoes. He thought that it was impossible that an inquiry should not sug gest some method of improving the present sys. tem. It was evidently most unjust that the rich man's park should pay nothing, and that the poor man's potatoe garden should pay 365. an nem: it would bo trifling with the feelings of the peo ple of Ireland to tell them now the same story that they had been told for thirty-five years past. lit would be recollected that the Tythus of Ire land went only to the support of the Clergy of tho Church of England, whtch was only one.tenth part of the population of Ireland ; and that in many pa.l rialtos, where the oppression of the tythe ; proctors. was the greatest, the Clergyinen never resided, an* no manuer of duty was done. It would be quite' unreasonable for the Clergy of any country, and' much more for the Clergy of a persuasion that wet' but a tenth of the population of the country, tWI claim for their own use an absolute tenth of the-1 produce of the Country. It was known, that when tythes were first instituted, one.fonrth of them went to the Bishop, another to the ?. p airs of the Church, another to the poor, sad . it war only the remainder that went to the parochial Clergy.' At present the Bishop was paid out.of other funds, and nothing Was given from the Tythes, either to the repair of the parish church or to the poor. It would, therefore, be monstrous for the Clergy to insist upon an absolute tenth of the value of the land for their own benefit; and it would be infinitely overpaying thorn for any services that they can- be supposed to render. Though satisfied as to the oppression of Tythes in Ireland, he was yet ready to agree, that the Church was entitled to a full equivalent for the • Tythes, in care of a commutation. He wished the Clergy to derive their income from some other source than the miseries of the people; that the mode or providing for them should not make them and their religion objects of ettecration in the men fry. Udder that impression, he should vote fur the motion of his lion. Friend . . Bat ho had another motive. He believed his Majesty's Ministers would be glad that they had the army in Nettie! embarked. • In the event of that country falling into the hands of the French, `the situation of Ireland would be rendered more exposed to attack. He should call, therefore, upon his Majesty's Ministers, not to oppose an Inquiry which might lead to the removal of an existing grievance. Mr. W. FITZGERALD was disposed to vote for the motion, but not on the arguments of his Hon. Friend-oho had just sat down. He was as anxious as any Hon. Member for a fair, candid, and legitimate inquiry. He could never admit that the Clergy, in the event of commutation, should sot be entitled to more than the amount of the net proceeds of their present Weenie- Mr. GRATTAN said, that he had for a con. siderable time entertained the same opinion, upon the oppressive nature of levying_ tribes in Ire. land, and that he had not in all that time beirtr one argument that could prevail on him to alter that opinion. He was more and more convinced of the propriety, and of -the necessity, and of the practicabilityof a commutation ; it was not the commutation that was impracticable, but it was the strict levy of the Tythe that was so. The Irish Clergy ought not to attempt to levy a tenth of Irish produce, because the measure itself was an impossibility; they could not do it, and what was more, they would destroy themselvesbyattempting to do it ; the attempt would involve their destritc. tion as a corporation. But were it practicable— would it be expedient? Let tlineho, tenth of the national wealth, and wine the country or the corporation gain ? may become too rich for devotion, comparison will naturallygrow out of of the established clergy, and the pu tolerated ; the one will have its °di's other will have its praise, the odium and being both popular, may be equally but not on that account the less mischiev, ,try was able to provide for their Estplt gy, unless Gentlemen would say that to provide for the moderation or the C • . . - • '-, ' i,.'~l'l h c= • 'I )it‘ t i 4 • ••• - ~~, toatmlth.laut.l.3ll:°t thtaht" , Clergymiti, Mit hipoissble to prer'd e for th e hungry ambitiod of the Protestant —who w otherld not say ir _ . th at it--tw e h e " l a speak front knowledge in testimony of the a s oinlotte be s t t a e o i n d t — h u ll o f e o woti detation of, the majority of the Irish Protesiee— Cl erg y. There wares few whom be found to bestir liciently acute, furnished with a quick st e m i n th pursuit of clerical pro fi ts. They were, bout, : but few—the generality were of a different ord er ' But the Tythe Proctor was of anothe r specks 1 and another stamp—a factor of public rapi n e..; h e extended beyond himself the infamy of his galls leg sad griping character. The Church sagerett from the officious ministry of those sordid harpi es; The Tytl ie Proctor cannot help beiog a T„, 1 , 7 Proctor. He only follows his nature w h et ; grinds. But the Clergy should be removed to jealous distance from the contagion o f such acm es action. lie was for going into the COMM( ter, i f it were only to show the Irish public that th t i e interests were not wholly indifferent to that Re ese. Dr. DUIGENAN vindicated the right of th e Clergy to tythes, and contended that the hi gh rents of lands, not the pressure of tythes, w ere the grievances of Ireland. Andrea had beat said respecting commutation was irrelevant, ko wtow motion of the Honourable Gerui .011111/1 retard e d only the collection of tythes. The diminution e t the means of the Church would render it imp el . sible to dissolve large unions; and the rest oft why the Protestant religion had ant made soop progress in Ireland, was to be found in th e seen. tiness of the provision fur the Church. The 04. editions and arguments of the lion. Get itlerßal opposite, were precisely the same as those which hid been published in a pamphlet by the traitors Emmet und iVi‘Nesia, in 1797. H e that the weight of tythes was borne by me Ro of , as he contended that the whole fell upon the i anti proprietor. On ell those grounds he should Ns against the-motion. General M. MATIIEW was sorry to find that the statement made by the Chief Secretary fur Ire. land, when the llootourable and Learned Gentle. man ',sag made a Privy Coensellor, was not ad. hered to. It had then been asserted, that the Learoed Gentleman should toot be consulted et any subject but ecclesiastical questions. The statement had been made by that distil. guishcd Officer, Lod Wellington; anti it was generally understood that the Learned Gentian* had bey' muzzled. To his surprise, however, he found this muzzled Doctor [Order! Order!] proposing on- a former occasion to extend the ballot for the militia to the South of Ire. lend. As to the question, he agreed to every thing said by his Hon.. Friend (Mi. Parnell). Ile h a d in a former Session a petition to present pint Tythes ; but on hearing from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that ho had it in contemplation to make some arrangement, he deferred presenting it. He kept it, however, for the uezt session, know. lag that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, under any circumstances, was d slippery person, upon whom no dependance was to In placed, lie should write for the motion. The Gift...M.:MI.OR of the tXCREQUER had never hold out any confident hope that any at. inufgemeut could be made for the final adjuttsent o f sido question; neither slid he underseind his Ron. Friend to hold eat any sangeine expectation of being able to form such en arrangement before the neat year.. In place of demanding confidence ffout the Hon . . Gentleinan opposite, he besought, them to have coofidence in themselves, sad to bring forward some plan on the subject. Tiolt would be much more desirable than to resort to the farce, the mischievous farce, of proposing to go into a committee. Several .Gentlemen u s both sides had turned their best attention to the abject without having been ebb to devise any mode of re. moving the existing difficulties. The Right Hon. Gentleman thee proceeded to show that the right of the Clergy to the tythes could not be questioned; and that they were entitled to' a full and adequate compensation. AV ben it .was ad. rained en The other aide that the Clergy, as a body, were respectable, it was onfair to add that the system was. oppressive. Nothing could be tame mischievous, whether on the subject of Parlia mentary Reform, of Catholic Emancipation, or of Commutation of Tythes, than to move for a Committee without having any specific plan to propose. As they had all the information which they could hope to obtain in the Committee, he should vote ngsiont the motion. Mr. HUTCHINSO,N congratulated the Right Hon. Gentleman on the estimation in which be should be held in Ireland and in this county, wig.' 'be avowed himself the enemy of these three greet bleasures-4 3 arlinitieetary Reform, CarhOlieErMAs• ow)! ation, and Commutatitors of T.,140,... Tlitar* rlifeusiser tfie9 briefly stated the grounds PPell he should- vote for the motion. looto. • ' Mr. WILBERFORCE argued in &roots? On motion. The interests of Ireland he could not but consider as the interests of Eaginad, sad m such he would give them all the support is bit power. Sir GEORGE HILL opposed the motioe. held out, in his opinion, a hope to trebled, Alai ender the present system of Church Gutenlati". 4iouitl not be realised. The House divided on the original gnestionv Ayes - 45 hues trek take the Noel - - - w . _ . hat do either Majority - 21 ' The church 1. COMMITTF.L OF SUPPLY. and then a The Order or the aty briny read, for the NeeS W A the wealth Iwolviug itself into a Cummittee of SUpply, iverty of the Mr. PONSON BY moved,. that tha Udine thy um, and the now adjourn. After some conversation the me- ' bil u tti d isheint t h h c e ettom p ciptb r e a a, i so s i e sf til t: v lik ery hd or ra a w an n to a d t a id or th i e lresc Ho rv u i s i e:aritg ft' $. ly excesme, V. into a Committee, roilii iievous. He : URWEN snored, that 11. 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