The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-03-04 00:00:00

THE STATESIktAI'C'! deuce would compel us - to a continuation of the mea pure- Mr. STEPHEN observed, that he Crt.._ stood the Hon. Member to have expressed Asap,. bation at the warmth with which the condnet of the endtre, Mr. STEPHEN felt surprised at the departure which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) had made from his original motion, when he first inti mated it to the House. At that time he announced a most distinct measure ; but from the nature of the motion with which he had Concluded his speech, every person must perceive, that the Committee .hick he wished to appoint, would have the most „Freneh Emperor had been spoken of on the ooeusionj Mr. BROUGHAM re-asserted ; that in so doing' `the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had misunderstood” him; and in adverting this night to what passed a* that occason, hid greatly misrepresentedlim. Mr . ..CANNING then rose, and said, that havb* forborne t• pess himself on the attention of dit)t • , with the Hr v,L heterogeneous misture of measures, and orders, and disturbances to consider, that had ever before un happily fallen to the Ict of any Committee, to -,er liscriadnate 'fame in competition ..on. a►d taarneti Gentleman [Mr. Canning and Mr. Stephen rase at the same moment, but Mr. Ginning gar.? ?my] w h ose speech the House lettfjest heard, he felt the diiad• edgily the violence of his own aorevsion.' Such I§s&beeolhe ground, the o r i g i n , a 0 the principle of the Orders of 1807. His Wed- had un- doubttitift thotightit"itht to qualify. - ail - prin. eipie of retalintiortisy the adoption of a restric kiwi in its apptleitfteti, which ameunted'enly to Mitigation in favour of tieuliits. This . 'Mitt. gation of' the extended principl e s h owN l t ine sire of his Majesty's Goverement to confine tYile !At to thre 2 enerny, and if . any part of it should fall *olio's' 'Oral.; it its- -•- neutral!, it teas the ehemy alone that was respon sible for" it. Where the' operation was confiited to retaliation, the ern to the neOral was only iricidan tal, though not to be avoided: it was a consequenCe template. The motion was by far too inch . . .. . vantage. under which be 'rose after the sp ee ch o f ;to lie regretted , but the measu re s front which it re and incomprehensible; it wished to grasp every thing; that livm. and Learned Gentleman in which he had I suited were forced epee, the British Gaternment. If and took direct hold of nothing. It mentioned, in- introduced so much and,suelt -variety of matter not 'at any time it should appear that them Ordeis did d ee d, Orders in Comm:4,, but what Orders in Couu- connected with the subject of discussion, if he' not retort his'aggresslon upon the enemy,' but ope ell were they ? Every one on his side of the House , sheuld endeavour to bring. back the attention of the ' rated solely to the injury of the neutrals; ireven the was at a loss to know whether it were those of in- . House to. the dry question upon which they were • British Government should appear tohave interfered livery 18 07 , or of April 1809 ; was the Committee to decide. lie had listen** to that Hon. and ,to relieve their 'presSure upon the enemy, they would' to distinguish for him ? But what were the grounds 4 Learned Gentleman with all that attention and de- : stand upon far different _principles from these upon insisted on to show to the House the propriety o f ' ference which he was at all times ready to pay to : which he had , supported them; and wonla, in hii opi. such a measure? Had they attempted to show, that 1 what felt from him, but more particularly upon a ' nion, be veryproper objects for examination and re. the misfortunes of the country arose from a persist- subject with which he had the reputation of . beiog .. vision. It 'was obvious that, when a considerable sure in those Decrees, or that the wounds would be peculiarly conversant. He had listened .to him change had- been produced in' the situation of Eti--, healed up by their repeal? They had, indeed, made even with still more deference, because he we's tree rope, by , the transactions in the Peninsula, as well ase au attempt at such a statement, but the returns of to confess, that all the knowledge which he him- by other events on the Continent, the Orders of 180 T the commerce denied the assertion's. The country self possessed upon such subjects was derived hem were found to be no long er applicable: This change lied evinced unto the latest returns,. a state of unpa his lion. and Learned Friend, if he might so be ' led to th e adoption of the Order of April, 1809,. Tended prosperity in trade, 'far surpassing the most i permitted to cell him. But, if he recollected right' which converted the larger blockade under the pre-: sanguine conception. Now, the contemplation of the 1 principles which he had derived from that Hoo. i vious Orders into 'a mote limited blockade, render , the returns made before the creation of the Orders ' and Learned Gentleman, he must say, that in bite lug that which was retained more *rigorous, ,as./OltiV in Council, showed an evident falling- away in i speech on that night he appeared to have forgotten ' ports of France and Italy, and exempting the ports cif : the British trade; not a transitory stop, but a con-, all that he had formerly so strenuously mainteined. the Noreh. Thisexplatiation of the Orders of 1807 and plate stagnation of all trade. And were they to ; On an occasion, such as that afforded by the motion ' 1809 was his answer to the question of his Hon. and be gravely informed that the Orders in Council . under consideration, he had expected • that his Hon. , Learned 'Friend : these were the Orders which, as had occasioned all that. Gentlemen would see, and Learned Friend would hare distinctly and 4 1 .26 ~be understood the question, the Hon. and Learned who had all along branded the measure by the name : Innnsteatively laid down all the principles on which i Gentleman opposite (Mr. Brougham) wished to have of an experiment, that the experiment had been a I the conduct of the British Government could beius- referred to a Select Committee, for the purpose of most effectual one, restoring the trade to the coon- i tilled in havingedopted and maintained the..erderiii ascertaining, as the change of circumstances between ter, and creating an increase of 22 millions sterling l Council. This course was the rather to hive,been 1807 and. 1809 had rendered an alteration of the on exports, and 21 millions on imports. Such had expected on the part of hialien.and Learned Friend,, Orders of the former sear necessary, whether any been the experiment, and a most triumphant one.— because the principles upon which be 'had always i chatige had taken place since 1809', which would call If this House were to appoint a Select Committee, to ! considered the Orders in Council to rest and to be i for any further alteration at the present moment. — what sources of information were they to resort?— justifiable, had that night, for the first time since i The changes which he had understood the lion. and They would have Mr. Baring and Mr. Manning ex- , their adoption, been shaken by the speech of the : Learned Gentleman to allude to, were not external endued upon that branch of trade in which they were I lei A lion. the Vice-President of the Board of . but internal. Ile was perfectly aware that a refer engaged with America. They would have contiueutal I Trade. If the question had been what his lion. and ence to a Committee on such subjects as the distresses merchants, each giving them a magnified and exagge- ; Learned Friend had expected it would be—what , of manufactures. and trade would not be any remedy.. rated account of the commerce in which they were ! throughout the greater part of his speech he had , God knows it could not. For his own part, he did concerned, and what would be the advantage arising; : ,-; i argued it—and what in the remainder he never ceased , not think that these distresses were attributable to from all this . information ? Would this be su ffi cient . :to lament it was not-[ A laugh]—he should perhaps ! the Orders in Council, nay, he may perhaps be of No ; the House would then have to consider all the : I not have felt much culty in concurring with him ' opinion that these Orders were calculated to prevent political and belligerent interests connected math this , in the greater part of what had fallen from him , !diem : but still it was-impossible for that House to subject. They would have to go still further; cc. •i on the occasion ; but if he understood the question l shut their eyes to the impression which prevailed cording to the arguments of the Honourable Gentle- submitted to their consideration by the lion. and throughout the country on the subject. They were man who spoke last, they would have to enquire into ',canoed. Gen. opposite (Mr. Brougham) they were ' aware of the-representations that had been and would the commercial relations of the whole world. If, not called upon to decide whether or not the Orders ,be made to them on the subject. They must feel a full they went into a Committee to inquire into the statei in Council were justi fi able, but merely to go into at conviction of the existence of discontents throughout of the, manufactures,. and.intothe general state of the ' Committee to inquire into the state of the manufactures : the country; cud this very obviously suggested the ! country, it would give no satisfaction, but would, on and trade of the country with reference to those Or- ! expediency of a Parliamentary enquiry, which might the contrary, have a tendency to raise doubts which tiers. For his own part, he should freely own, that , satisfy the public mind as to the real grounds of the at present, did not. exist. If they looked to their . lar as he could foresee any effect of this enquiry , distress which was felt, and show that no part of it Statute Books, they would see 'many periods at u sopon his mind, he was persuaded that he should come ' was a consequence of the Orders in Council.— which the manufacturers were Mean)" distressed, out of the Committee with precisely the same opi- ; Nothing was more common than when distresses not from any Orders ire Council, not from any act of nion respecting the Orders in Council with which he i were felt, to assign them to some ostensible cause: the Government, but from the fluctuation of the woillfl go into it. But it had been asked by his lion. ' this was the fallacy inseparable from human nature. demand for our manufactures in the foreign market; , and Learned Friend, as it had been before asked with Evils, the source of which were not visible, welts for as long as there was a fluctuation itt the deotepd . something like infantine simplicity in anotheteplace,lgeoeralty. ascribed to measures, the 'operation et for British commodities on the Continent, so long ! what Orders in Council were meant to be enquired : which was not filly known, and no maxim was more must there be times when the manufacturers must be into ? To his Hon. and Learned Friend's question he ! false in itself, or more generally applied than this— distressed; for whenever the continental market was had no diffibulty in answering, that the Orders were - overstocked by a superabundance in the supply of those o f the 7t h o f J an. 1807, an d o f A pr il, 1809 * I " Pust hoc ergo propter hoc." British manufactures, distress anti calamity must Orders iu Council which had been found highly ne- : The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who brought for follow, as the necessary consequences. To go into ' cessary, greatly beneficial, and fully justified upon ,' ward this Motion, had, in his speech, which was not the Committee now, would be only to raise a bias in ! every ground of right, and every principle of the ' more remarkable for ability than, considering the the minds of the manufacturers which might not rea- i Law of Nations l until they had been shaken by the ' answer that had been given to it, for moderation, had . dily be appeased, and, therefore, so far from pro-, doctrities held by the Right Honourable Gentle- j connected with this subject another, which, in hie' during any beneficial advantages to the country, It man (Mr. Rose), the Vice-President of the Board' mind, had no connection whatever with it. That' would only tend to irritation and injury. If the of Trnde.—tlleue, hear !]—For these Orders in i Hon. and Learned Gentleman had argued the ques- House Nies tit go to the extent of the Honourable' COUI1C:1, so far as he had b: en connected with their ' Lion of the Orders in Council as connected with the Mover's 'proposition, they must be prepared to vin- adoption, he was ready to take his full share of re- system of licences; against any such connection he' late the meat sacred treaties; this was a proposition sponsibility. What Orders truly were meant ? must forcibly protest. The Orders in Council might most monstrous in itself, and insulting to the moral ; Why, they were Orders in Council, which, until he i be established without any system of iicences, and feelings of theliouse. In defending the system of had heard the speech of the Right Honourable' the system of licences might be carried to the full I.lcences, he adverted to the'epittion of the Conti- • Gentleman (Air. Rose) that night, he had okays ! extent to which it had been carried without the Or *email Merchants, who would not trust their goods - looked upon as retaliatory upon the enemy, u hichlders in Councii having been previously in existence, in neutral ships, unless protected by British Li- had been so understood in every instance, until the ;or both may be co-existent without any necessary tettces. Without these Licences, the British trade , Vice-President of the Board of Trade, in contradic- connection : and, indeed, the best possible, because Mould be in danger, not only from capture by the ene- ; thou to every statement which has hitherto been given ; the most indisputable practical evidence, that they rty, but also be liable to capture from our own ma- :to the Public on the subject—in contradiction to had no necessary connection, was the fact, that where rine regulations; without these Licences every Yes-' every document in office respecting these Ordeis—in ' the Orders in Council did not operate, there the Li sel might be seized by British cruizers, no trade contradition to every communication which. he (Mr. sense trade existed, and where the system of licences tould be carried on with the Continent of Europe, it Ca nuig) had made, and every dispatch written in his , was •in activity, there the Orders in Council did Weil idle therefore to attribute the distress of our ma- . official character, explanatory of their nature and , not apply. ' Whatever may be the mischief, there nnfactures to this system, or to any other Act of the : spirit—in contradiction to every speech which had fore, of the licences, the Orders in Council, he Government. His Honourable Friend had charged ' been made in Parliament in defence of them , , would maintain, were guiltless of it. Nlrben he con. this system as supported by perjury, and originating , had thought proper to represent them, not as mea- ; sidered the impression which prevailed in the country, in fraud; if the Government did not countenance sures retaliatory upon the enemy, but as Measures of ;he was not prepared to oppose the motion for an this system, our trade would be utterly ruined, and self-defence. lie knew it might be urged that they 1 enquiry, whatever may be his feelings, if.the Honour. revert entirely to America, andether neutrals. T he , ' might be said to tat self-defensive, because retaliatory ; able and Learned Member in the first , instance were . Honourable Member who spoke last, att r ibuted al l ; measures ; but if they were to he in no larger a sense Ito propose to repeal the Orders in Council. If the our calamities to our originally resisting toe gas- retaliatory than as self-defensive—if they were not tot House were to refer the subject at all, he was in conade of liceeparte's blockading Decrees, and yet retaliate directly against the enemy, but to be defensive dined to think that the whole should be referred. — be would remind that Honourable Gentleman, that , against a rival in trade—if they were not to be belt- The Orders in Council, he believed, had been haw k! his speech upon a former night, ho declared, lie : gerent measures, but purely defensive, then all their- ficial ; but of the advantages of the system of Li_ never iroutd4ire op o make Order in Council of Jane- ! guments by which they had hitherto been supported cences he had his doubts : but he would not pre my, 1807. • lie sho u ld. ever be desirous take the, by them would fail to apply, and he should no sume to prejudge the question. Some Gentlemen itreotest bacrific.o in support of our commercial ins : longer support what he had looked upon as retalia- seemed to look at the rippointment of' a Committee n teets. The Orders in Council -hall been the source, tors upon a belligerent, if they were to lose that as unprecedented and alarming—but lie could (Hs nf much mismatistruction,• of much Pe'Tersio" o f ! character, and be considered as measures of summer- cover no ground of apprehension in such a measure. truth, of distorting of facts, and of much false 10, , cial rivalry. Ile had understood the grounds of It was usual in this House to appoint Committees , Sic—but nothing was atom tlem°" s " l thle t o 11 " : th..se Orders to rest upon the principle of retalia- whether general or select (he preferred a select Corn- O-n this;that'we must not retract those only means, : C iip n alone, and he should ;leg leave to introduce the mittee), to enquire into the state of trade, into the a hich, u n de r P rov id en c e , m o s t p ro t e ct. our.commer-1 etv observations he had to address to the House on distresses of the manufactures, and into the circum vial interests, the only means by which we are en- , t h e su bj ect, b y reca lli ng th e i r attentio n t o th e or d er s t an ces of the commerce of the country. It was abled to resist and defeat the tiverbearieg. tyra nny, •in which these measures were resorted to. When not unusual. either to bring such questions again be and boundless ambition of our inveterate enemy. ; Council ,had, Mr. the French Government had thought proper to de- fore the House. Even the Orders in hir. BROUGHAM, in explanation, observed, ! dare the British Islands in a state of blockade, it was in the first instance, undergone a fuller diefsmotoe that. his Hon. and Learned. Friend had more. than in-, thought right by the !Mash Government to denounce than any measure of trade had previously kid 'it ainuated that he, ay welt as some of his friends, had .to the world the injustice of the proceeding, and to Parliament. If eighteen mouths . after they had felt somewhat impatient in a farmer debate, at (lie - proclaim its own right to retaliate, at, the same time been orientally adopted they requ ired revision and ; application of vehement terms to the Emperor of ennoutteing, that if it did not carry its. etal iation to the ' alteration , the period that bad since elapsed m ight' France. lie had a perfect recollection of all that' full extent to which-it was entitled, it was influenced hart produced changes which would render a fur had fallen from him on that occasion,, and could not by expediency only. f . The words of the Ord e r tit titer elteration necessary. With respect to the call to mind that -- Council - ' the 7th of Jar - ' lBO7, we discontents . which were - knotstit to exist, he would scription all ,- - - ` the Berlin silt, rbe nothing - , anomie:: bet,,a or, aer ar 6 , i of Of lather speetlies in ... If his liosh-11 table i ' ' that 1;•.` - • • , . , .. NI the test of opinion, and to have the whole matter ascertained by examination and confirmed by expe rience ? The consideration, however, which had principally called him up'sras, the statement of the flight Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, that the Orders in Council were not retaliatory .upon the enemy, but measures of dominercial rivalry with America.—[No, no lie he had understood the flight Hon, Gentleman, iind, if that were the case, it would be necessary to bring back the Orders in Council to the original prin- Ciples they had been originally established.— The Right lion- Gentleman then went into a retro .spect of the circumstances under which the Orders `ln Council had beeu issued, to show that the con. directive blockade had been maintained on the prin. eiple of retaliation, by the same rulas as the actual blockade; and conteuded, that though the British Government was fully warranted, according to the laws . of nations, in excluding neutrals from trading with blockaded ports, it did not follow that it was at liberty to allow a constant British trade with them. He should be desirous, therefore, to hear the senti ments df some Hon. and lemrnod Gentleman upon this part of the subject; for, as in the original Or ders, pressure npou the enemy was the object, he ctici not think that we could be justified in relieving j the enemy at the eapence of the neutral.—He i agreed, that the true policy now, as in 1809, would be to *give the Orders in Council their full and unlimited effect, in order to reduce the power of the enemy, but not to `say, as by these licence, it lettiktaid,.-A 6 the moment your wants amount to a carts% height, we wiltTeliere you ;" this was a sys tem of blockade to which he could not subscribe.— The Orders in Council were perfect so far as they tended to, reduce the power of the enemy, but lie could not agree to the doctrine, that they were to denforced for the purpose of reducing the enemy to istress with a view to his relief ; with this view of (be subject he would net be suspected of bringing ..tsese Orders into disrespect. With regard to the Licence trade, that was a subject upon which he had I but little information or knowledge. The fault he imputed to this system was, first, from its tendency to produce convulsions iu the course of trade, which were injurious to commercial interests generally ; aext, as they were occasionally granted or with held, there was no uniform principle upon which Dien could square their speculations ; but that they Were the source of considerable, tosses, he admitted,' was not to be attributed to Government, because' when so many thousands were granted, and so many refused, such losses must be the ultimate consequence. Bat an instance had been lately communicated to him, where an application was made for one of those licences, and refused. A second application was made on a subsequent day, through the medium of a friend, and again refused; and upon the fourth thy, the party seeking the licence got. another friend to *pply, and at last he succeeded. Did he blame the Board of Trade for this ? Certainly not. It was notorious, that at one time, impertetious were permitted, and at another time refined ; but what he found'fault with was, .how Wei the regular bier. chant to calculate ? He coal(' -not take the general course of trade as the grounds of his-conduct. But as this siblem was necessarily subject to fluctuation, these evils must still exist ; that,-however in his mind was twrreavon• why they . should not go Into the en quiry, and try whether these ertlicould not beavoid. ed. ' But it had been said that these licences were re. I fused, except under certain circumstances; that, how. ever, was no instance to establish their necessity, and certainly could not be a reason agaiast going into an enquiry. This might arise, perhaps, from one deri de' error among ten thoesand; but if he was in the situation of adininister - iag that part of the Govern ment, he should be most anxious for enquiry, in ordet to avoid such errors in future; but if it arose from an error inherent in the system itself, then, indeed, it was high time to look for a change. If this, there. fore, was a state of things fit to go on . with, let the House first establish the necessity; but, a priori, if he had any doubta, and great doubts he admitted he had, these doubts should first . be reseqed, and this was a still further reason for enquiry. : With respect to the Orders he would press theta as much as possible, and if pressed they might lead to the adoption of that system which was most desirable but he would press them with this view only, to Open the market for oar own commodities to the total exclusion of neutrals. Was it net, therefore, .necessary to enquire into 'what channOls that trade I might best run. He would establish a principle of the strictest reciprocity with the belligerents; he I would not be subject to their caprice; but he would support our own trade. Had an unmitigated blockade ' been applied to Russia (and in this respect he took much blame to himself )? If, he continued, front 1809, an unmitigated blockade had been applied to Russia, he had little doubt, nay, it.almest amounted to a certainty, that such a blockade' would have • brought that Power into terms ; arid, Instead of giving.relief, the system - of blockade should be car : ried to the remotest extent. With respect to our relations with America, it was proper to lay them ' aside. If they were brought forward with a view to our own policy, he should be the first to support the proposition ; but, if any man was ready to relinquish our claims to support our own system, with a view : to concession towards America, at the expense of that system, he could only say he was not that man. Ile was not the man who would restrain from retali ating measures toward the enemy, in the fear of of= fending Is Neutral Power; lie would not remove it one jot the sooner ; he would not be mean enough ; to look 'into our internal eltatation, in order to get rid-ef eiternal diffictilty ; bet if, in the course of ekttiry, *le could incideetally ameliorate our sys tem with relation to America, it might be most bens tidal to go into that euquiry. Upton in these grounds', therefore, he for one was most unWitlito dismlis •, • ,• I,the preient question without giving st share of Consideration. rci Mr. ROM and Mr. CANNING a u tocy e t. pteitted. x ti a r . I 1,1 1 1 ~ ~. I .'~~ ~., 4 ! «~ , A ,!~ ' ,ll ..• • .. • 40 - 4 • ,:s •,'• . % call to mind that any feeling or expression.of the de.: Council made on thlo 7th of January, 1807, were discoitents which were inoWit to ex,ist, he }would I planed. ' - • ..,i , scrilltion ailnded to had been bet rayed by himself, I " whereas (reciting `the BttrUn Decree, &c.) spas ask, would' it be netking'to pronounce bp ,a vete 1 , *r.*lsstAltitrAtr - dgeoaed the Orders in Conti: or, as ter 40 be !knew by any of his Hon:Friends. i measures would give it , right of full retaliation to re. of a conunittee ' lather than by speetbes in -that • sit, but wits of opinion that the Trade Licences had ' 11 ' 4 . , Pion. and Leart:ed Friend intended ter insinuate ' etniku the isijutieo of like Felled Gm:rained, mad to HolO s itlitt the' , Were no( attribtitable to' the Oa ilieen very injurious ; not more in dinotereeting t*. : t. that he Vllll . dPipollil to disapprove of the ativAlea. resort the evils of its ow*. Jejaatice." The, 'rear -di v i — hevoliscutr-IVOidd'lt be nothing if Licticss. effect which the Orders were calculated to hare tilit lion of Attu 9 r warm, or .etoo vehrmentjaneile terms of this Order. proved the,. it was Merelt ritg,;?. .b*lao . t bittiilikdkatotatlei fell, to have that t 'the ettani, but . ice depressing our colony!' to the ad. (9 the Ceeillitre.o 13p1141014ter, he •inee, :See* . tieeOrr• Th* Ostler of Neveasheg, ifew. ' ti0 ..... - v . . . t r iisa . . ats . CoVionittee, 10' ie..' teenage of those of bt,r Mlles. Assn instant* pith* destoOd.w4t be bad lard ' asid itaajog aqs. ' ' to . ahis Order .74 4a t ovir ~. afitl: - .apreasly - ••`.. • •`. , - . .. - ': '. illifitikoc - of that., .. "P:4-. hast**tion, be mintioled that the Isiatel or ea* , • - • 4t°64 ) •usihreFesented hiiilk • ibis liteY /** fts `• matt 'spoilr • . .Ifolit - afi , ,to ill - these 'plaids a lb* arbiebi at die commencement of the wary ei t petW . . r i I~ . ; I k +;'i I 7 (:11