The Statesman. — London, England, 1818-02-20 00:00:00

both sides ; and he would not therefore gay that ell the statements which he could produce should be im plicitly relied on ; but he would say, that, till be ea* the contents of the Green Bag, the evidence in his possession against Oliver appeared conclus 16. 1 [Bear, hear !] —This evidence did not proceed en tirely from persons who were interested or preju• diced—it was not altogether from what had been termed a polluted source—it was furnished by respectable individuals, who had watched his operations, nr who had enquired into the .truth of peek/UW.I supplied by others. The Noble Viscount (Lord Sidmoutii) had thought be had sufficiently dir. proved the allegations of Mitchell's Petition, by de. laying that he had been apprehended on the testi mony of Oliver ; but, so far as lie (Lord Holland) tement:tered, the Petitioner did not state that he was. One thing, lionever, was certain, and could tot be denied, as it was supported on irresistible proof—that Oliver had been detected acting in most of the disturbed districts. Witnesses could he brought to state, that he had been engaged in exciting the people of Nottingham, of Derbyshire, and of York shire, to violence and insurrection, by the most in danimatory latigutre, and the most encouraging as surances of assistance. He (Lord Holland) did not asset that such evidence was true, but he gave it as his opinion that it laid sudirient grounds for enquiry and investigation. He would go further and say, that the employment of Spies (he did not allude to the receiving of intelligence from informers) was al ways usijuslifiable, except in cases of the greatest and most imminent hazard to the State. Nothing but a pa ramount necessity that set all orditia ryru les at defiance, and threatened danger to social order,that could neither be met (tor averted by acting on common principles, or exercistig all the means which human foresight and vigilance could suggest, would justify a resort to ouch revolting, Reza rdous, and abi•minahle agency.— The persons so employed must always be the refuse of society ; and unless those who employed than were able to judge of their testimony, and to estimate coolly the facts they supplied, th ey must always produce mischief. lie might appeal to all history, and the opinions of all wise historians and politicians. in sups port of. this doctrine. He would nut refer to the authority of Tachus, nor quote Lord Falkland, but be merely instanced a passage in Humes history, which, in speaking of the Measures pursued by Burleigh and Walsingham, in 1584. says. •• spies were hired to observe the actions and discourses of suspected persons; informers were countenanced ; and though the sagacity of these two great Al Misters helped them to distinguish the true from the false Intel maim many calumnies were no doubt hearkeued to, and all the subjects, particularly the Catholics. kept in the utmost anxiety stud disqvietude." When such great Ministers as these were liable so be imposed upon, was it oat to he suspected that the employment of similar agents by them who might lint exercise the same caution and vigilance, would lead to the greatest oppression and abuses, especially when such instruments were relieved from the fear of detection or pettish meet / The fear of a public trial was the only check that could be imposed on the misconduct of spies. if protected from skim or exposure, t..ere was no limit to their audacity, DO contrast over their actions. no means of meeting or confounding their mis rei•resenta• ions. They might give any information they pleased. they might invent the most palpable falsehoods. they might calumniate the most innocent and orderly individaals. if the danger from this detestable race was great, when they wereseat among the better-informed clot es of society, how much was it soultiplieil when ihey were employed among the lower order., who were liable to every Mono° which they mi hi attempt to pnic i.e and unable to detect their real ammeters ? Oliver found the People almost mad with projects of Reform. discorso tented from w..nt of employment, and almost furious from want of Ned. It was not his business to sooth their discontents, to represent the real state of iheir feelings, or to tranquil intent gene of their real situation be was sent to detect their dangerous projects, to discover their treasonable and seditious plots. To please his rmplat ere', therefore, and to magnify his own Mt- • patience. tie had a motive to impel them to the escrows. which it wee the object to denounce. " I shall get nothing." says he, " by encouran;ing them to petition peaceably for Podiums are Reform I shall get nothing by urging a People crying for bread to bear their suffering. with patience, or to rely ore h con fidence on the Legislature for all the relief it cant grant. 1 must excite them to violence, I muss inflame their discontents into rebellion, before 1 execute my mission, or deserve my re ward." These things laid grounds for enquiry and investigation ; but these were not the only things. The Petitions on the table, and the enquiry proposed to be referred to the Committee, referred to mopes - Li; with witnesses, to the taking of illegal reengnizances, and to discharges without trial, by which sus picion wits still axed on the Petitioners. But it was said, that the forms ofthe House precluded enquiry ; and this was the only mower dna was given to Petitioners when they complained of the grievances which they had suffered, and the hardships to which they had been subjected. He was glad to hear it said, that the Bill of Indemnity which would be proposed wuahi alill allow a recourse to be had to a Court of Justice for a refire.. Of individual grievances, if any abuse of authority had be e n exer cised; but he distrusted such pledges, *lmo he remembered the effects and consequences of other Bills of lintemoity when Is. recollected that in Mil, the last Bill of this kind precluded all enquiry. The Noble Earl opposite t Lord Bathurst) had said that on -itch a reference the Comusitire would be converted into a Court of Low to decide on the guilt or illMweiler of the Pea. sinners, to convict or acquit them of treason; bathe (Lord Hool-. laud) could not see bow this would be the effect, as it was not the object of the motion. The motion referred the Petitioners' ease to the •Committer, not to pronounce whether they were guilty or not guilty, hut *heftier the Goverment. in its mode of apprehending and treating them, bad exceeded its powers. It was an old inasiin in law, its which if he were wro, he would beset right by the Noble and Learned Lord on the goal. sack, that no troth could be proved till it was conto.ted, and be thought the ekction of the Committee was such as protons-A &tithing without the present reference. He had never in his life been in the habit of predicting nny thin; in public. Ste reinem bered no instance in which he ventured to predict the result of a political measure, but one. when, in the owe of the reapert sion of cash payments at the Bank, he foretold that they wessid never be resumed. He would now, however, predict. and take his character of a prophet on the issue, that the result of this partial enquiry. by this Ministerial Committee. would be the recommendation of as Bill of Indeinnits —Near, hear l)—whieb. in other words, would be this—that hiinisters, after bowies procured a recommendation front a Secret Committee tolerant them extraordinary Kissers to preserve the law. would obtain a similar recommendation, by the same meats, to promo them against - the breaches of it. After his lordship end cot luded, no other Peer offering to address the House, the question was put from the Woolsack, and she modem negatived without a division. Adjourned at nine o'clock. . err . • w77•F-7r- HOUSE OF COMMONS. The City of Rath Gas Light Hill wit read a first time, and ordered to be tend a second time to-morrow. Mr. TAYLOR brooght up the Report of the Northern Coun ties Assist Bill.—Ordered to lie upon the table. On the maim of Mr. SHA W. of Dublin. a return was or-, &red to be laid upon the table, of the Window and Hearth Tax of Ireland for the years 1815, 16. sad 1 7, resPectiveli- LUSHINGTON b ought op an account of the Gross Amount atf Revenue of England and Ireland for the year 1817. —Ordered to lie upon the table. On the • Mon of Mr. COURTENAY. the further consider atioo of the Surgery Regulation Bill was postponed until Fri day the 3'2d of March. The Report of the Chimney Sweepers' Regulation Bill was brought up, and the Bill uttered to be read a third time to morrow. On the motion of Mr. TEED an account was ordered to be laid upon the table of the number of ships captured by private ships of war, together shit their net produce, since the year 1i94. The Agricultural I Ditties' Regulation Bill went through a Committee.—Report to-morrow. TITII ES. Mr. CURW EN felt it necessary to offer a few oh- Emotions un the sub jort of which he had that night given notice. A genre-RI feeling prevailed through out the country, that the present system of our Tithe Laws stood in need of revision and amendment. Ile would he acing an injustice to his own feelings if he did not espress his conviction, that such improve ment mast be wished for by the Church itsel. 13y a • r - r , "rs • Tom. STATISM 'return laid en the table, it appeared, that within Ole last seven pars the number of Tithe Catalan, 41!... ,tided in the Court a Exchequer amounted to IM, • • and. an /liter knitter were new pending. Batton' wasii great evil, and called for coreeetlon.--. He quitted the House would believe, that he would be the last man to open any measure tendingto the security of vested . property. His aim was to strengthen such property, by getting rid of the cop makes system of taw by which this species of pro perty was considered in a different mode from every other, and which was equally disadvantageous to the Church, to the Lay Impropriator, and to the Land holder. The Hon. Member then proceeded into a de. tailed statement of the opinions of the highest legal authorities on the subject, all of whom were com pelled to decide by precedent, but who universally felt the nature of the evil. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Leas re lating to Tithes. Sir WM. SCOTT observed, that during the last Session of Parliament some Petitions were presented to that House from Devonshire against the Tithe Laws. if these Petitions had attracted the notice of the House, he was disposed to believe that no grave proceedings would have been instituted upon thew. The Petitions appeared all to be written iii the same hand, and were signed by people of the lowest deseriprion in the distant parts of that county. From the uniform tenor of their language, they ap peared to have emanated from some Anti-Tithe Board. They declared Tithes to be not alone inju rious to agricultural prosperity, end incompatible with our civil institutions, and insular situation, but as preventing the due influence of the principles of the Christian religion. A Committee was then sp. pointed to take there Laws lot° consideration, and the Bill for which the Hon. Member had now at•ked leave, was the result. He did not rise to oppose the motion for leave, hut he prayed the House to proceed with the utmost caution in interfering with Laws involviog the very existence of property that hail now stood for so malty centuries unshaken. The Rouse would feel the necessity of that caution, when it recollected that it was merely a question bet ween the Landed 4nterest and the Church, and decided where the latter was secluded from asy Legislative coparcenary. Sir S. ROMILLY observed, that the Bill proposed by his Hon. Friend had no resemblance whatever to the Petitions adverted to by the Right Honourable Gentleman. The effect of the proposed Bill would be to put an end to an inconvenieuce, which for many years had been very seriously felt, and which w a s an anomaly in the law of England. It hail not the slightest tendency to shake the law of Tithes, but, on the contrary, was calculated to maintain it, by discouraging litigation. The object of the Bill was to place Cherch property on the same footing as property of every other description, and to remove that anisette!) by %hush, since the imitate of Elias. belle, no alienation of Tithes to a Lay-Impropriator was prescriptively binding, unless the original deed could be POW ed. Mr. LOCKHART supported the motion on the attn. grounds. Mr. PEEL defended his Right lion. Friend from the imputation of opposing the discussioo of this question. In his opinion, the adoption of the mea sure would be calculated to increase, rather than to diminish, litigation, unless the Clergy were fully dis posed to argetesce in it. Mr. SMYTH thought the Bill would be attended wish injurious consequences, Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the property of the Church was as ancient and as well founded, as property of any otter description, and soy step which seemed to have a tendency to invade it, ought to be taken e ith the greatest deliberation. Mr. BROUGHAM thought that those who wish ed to discuss the .object, had better reserve then. selves until the Bill should be in the House. lie thought with his lion. and Learned Friend near him, that although the Right Hon. Gentlemen (lid not op. pose the bringing in of the Bill, he intended it to go forth to the country that it was a Bill trenching on the property of the Church. .In proof of the injUg. lice of the present system, the lion. and Learned Gentleman instanced a case in Oxfordshire, in which a composition having been made 250 years ago for Tithes, in the shape of land, the Tithes were re stored by a decision in the Court of Exchequer, be. cause the original parchment could not be produced, and what was still more eatzeordinary, the land ob tained in composition was retained. Mr. CURWEN made a short reply, disclaiming all wish for precipitation, and remonstrating against the comparison made by the Right lion. Gentleman, of the Bill to certain Petitions, to which it had no resemblance; a comparison catcul4ted to create the most unfoonded prejudices against the measure. Sir W. SCOTT explained ; after which leave was given to bring in the Bill. Sir S. ROMILLY gave notice, that on Wednes day he would move for leave to repeal the Act of King William, which made privately stealing in a shop a capital felony. Mr. BENNETT was desirous of stating, that with respect to a Petition which he had presented last Session, complaining of certain observations made by Judge Day, in Ireland, on a trial for murder, there presentations which it made were unfounded in fact. He bad been induced to give some credit to its state mint, because it appeared to be supported by what he had since learned was a most incorrect account of the proceedings, with the addition of very libel lous notes. He owed this reparation to the Learned Judge, who, he understood, was proceeding to vitt dicate his character with reluctance, but it► a form which enabled the defendant to prove the truth of his charges if he were able, —that was, by a civil action. Mr. PEEL complimented the Honourable Mem ber on the liberal manner in which he had made this ezplanation, and availed himself of the earliest op• portonity of refuting the gross and calumnious libel whiCh had been circulated against the Learned Judge. Dr. P 111 Lt.( MORE postponed his motion relative to the Spanish Claimants for restitution of Prizes till Wednesday next. Mr. %V. BURRELL moved fora Return of the Number and Amount of British Claims made upon the French Government, whether funded, territorial, or commercial ; made and liquidated since the Treaty I , "~~ ~~~ of Pads rand also .r of the Amount of Salaries paid to certai J.--L-Otdered. ; . • • tA. ''ay.rlaseti.. Sir F. II Cli p lc 1 a Petition from Li. verpool, in Aitivie• Sfl „aleatory Reform.—Laid ,on the table. ,; c•A 't ~- .J.b. :• • . • Sig .F. BURDiti7 proandiall thirteen Petitions ,frorn Bath, in isle* of. -Parliamentary Reform.— . Each Petition was signed by twenty persons. The question was then put oa them all together, and they were laid on the bible. • • COTTON FACTORIES. ' , Sir R. PEEL rose to sake his proiiiised motion re. apecting the regulation of Apprentices,. and others employed in Cuttoo Manufactories. About 15 years ago he had brought in a Bill for the Regulation of Apprentices in Cotton Manufactories. At that time tirCelysi the description of persons most employed in those manufactories. He himself had 1000 of them, end felt the necessity of some regulation with respect to them. Since that time, however, the Mu listen had been much attended. Mansfectorie, were established in large towns, and the proprietors availed themselves of all the poor population of those towns. In Manchester alone 20,000 persons were employed in cotton manufactories, and in the whole of England about three times that number. The business was of a peculiar nature, requiring of necessity that adults and children should work io the same rooms and at the same hours. It was notorious that children of. very tender age *ere dragged from their beds some hoofs be. fore day, and confined in the factories not less than 15 hours; and it was also notoriously the opinion of the faculty, that no children o(8 or 9 years of age couldbear that degree of hardship with impunity to their health. It had been urged by the humane, that there might be two sets of young labourers for one set of adults. He was afraid this would produce more harm than good. The better way would be to shorten the time of working for adults as well as for children; and to prevent the introduction of the latter at a very early age. Those who were employers of the chil dren, seeing them from day to day, were not so son. sible of the injury that they sustained from this prac tice as strangers, who were strongly impressed by it. In fact, they were presented from growing to their full size. In consequence, Manchester, which used to furnish numerous recruits (or the army, was now wholly unproductive iu that respect. He hoped the House would allow him to bring in the Bill to.night, he would then move that it be printed, and the second reading might take place at any future period that might seem convenient. The Hon. Baronet conclud ed by moving, " That leave be given to hiing in a Bill, to amend and estend the Act of the 4td of his present Majesty, for preserving the health and morals of apprentices and others employed in cotton and other mills, and in cotton and other factories." Lord LASCEl.l.ESentertainedconsiderabledoubts as to the Practicability of applying an adequate re. tartly to the evil in question, by any Legislative re. gulations. The persons whose employment they would effect must be considered as free labourers, and the Bill as en interference, as far as it should go, with a free trade, the general impolicy of which ao man would now ventere to dispute. Mr. W. SMITH rose to say, that the measure had its origin in the Report of the Committee which sat in 1816, which contained Lily sufficient ground for it, although these grounds were certainly not weak ened by the additional evidence which had been pin. duced, and shown to particular individuals. Ile would also remind the House, that a Petition had been received from the adult persons in this employ. ment, against the existing practice, which alone proved the necessity of some further regulation. Mr. PRIMA PS said, if he conceived that the esta blishment with which he was connected, though he was only whet was called a sleeping partner in it, scattered disease and death in the manner which had been described, be should take shame to himself if he did not immediately attempt to remedy the evil.— The fact was, however, that that establishment had been conducted in such a manner that it was an im portant benefit to the poor and an example to other factories. Is this, however, he himself had on merit, for the whole was done independently of him.— During the 27 years which that establishment had esisted, no contagious disease had ever been knots o in it ; and during 11 of these years returns of the state of health had regularly been made, and the sick ness amounted only to a bmill fraction per cent.— Out of a thousand pvrsono employed, the whole sem ' paid to them in Poor's Rates did not exceed 51. per annum —a fortieth part of the sum which the factory contributed to the poor. ll' such was the fact, could any man say that the employment was unhealthy. There was no manufacture in the country from which, if the same means were taken which had been resorted to in this case, numerous petitions ind complaints might be int.-- Small factories were often ill ventilated, and from that circumstance the health of a person might suffer more in sin hours in one of these factories than in fifteen hours in a f.sctory which was well ventilated and properly constructed io other respects. But how could this evil be cured by any Bill ? The small factories generally went to rein, and that was the cure for the evil. From the Returns made to the House, out of 31,117, the number of persons employed in these Returns, 1717, or 51 per cent., were of the age of 10 and under, 13,203 from 10 to 18, and 16,197 of the ■ge of 18 and upwards. Out of 27,827 persons, there were 1,830 only who could not read. Out of 25.000, the number of per sons returned sick was 163, very little more than s.Bths per cent. Mr. WILBERFORCE thought it would be better to reserve giving opinions on this subject till the Bill was before the House. Mr. FI NLAY contended that no instance of hard. ship had come to the knowledge of the Committee, except in one case, which he admitted was very dia. creditable to the parties. That very establishment was, however, under the regulation of an Act of Parliament, none but apprentices being employed in it ; ■nd it only proved, therefore, that an Act of, Parliament would not prevent ass immoral man from doing cruel and oppressive things. Me earnestly ets treated the House not to ligislate rashly on a sub ject of such vital interest to the Commerce and Re venue of the Country. The trade in manufactured cottons, taking the home and export trade together, amounted to nearly 40,000,0001. a year. If such • measure were ince:airy, he was also at aloss to know sill it was not to be extended to the woollen and linen factories: Re was sorry to see none of his Atijesty's Ministers in their places, as he thought it a subject extremely proper to engage their attention. Mr. PEEL said the Bill was brought in sttictly its conformity With the Report of I/116, bet the health of the Hon. Mover had retarded its introduc. don till the present . period. The case which had been alluded to by the . Hon. Gentleman who spoke and witidli hippened in a concern near the loge of Preston, proved the necessity of some interfereoce. It was a mkapplitetion of language hillesignate these young children by the term Of free ;sheerer.. The evidence showed, that in some cases . 0,7 were. kept to labour fifteen heirs a day, for silent weeks gether, and that even on Sundays tba> were some. times employed in cleaning michittery. In the ate . e to wide,' he had before referred, the childree treated were, on the future of the house, conveyed iti a cart to lAnCaster, and told to beg their way tp theiV oats parishes..--I/ear, heir I]—lt was plain t withikei'seeking the opinions of the focally, thit children of tender years could not be congoed to meat unrtniiiiting labour without injury to their healtb l ee well as happiness. Mr. CUBM EN and Sir J. GRAHAM prefesiell themselves hostile to the principle of the Bill. Sir J. JACKSON and Mr. B. SIiAW said a feet words in its support. Leave was then given to introduce the Bill, whick was afterwards brought In and reed inist time. The second reading was fixed for Monday neat. Lord A. HAMILTON presented Petitions fro* two persons named Buchanan and Roberts, complain. ing of harsh and creel treatment whilst deteined sue der the Suspension Act, and praying for redress. Mr. FINLAY declared, that there was ant one word of truth from the beginning to the end of these Petitions. Not one person had been arrested under the Suspension Act in Scotland, and the Petliletterti had themselves expressed gratitude for the manner is which they and their families bad been legated during their imprisonment. Lord A. HAMILTON thought it very natural foe the Petitioners to imagine ihnt they were detained under the Suspension Act, nor could be conceive why, if they were properly confined, they had Wet discharged without being brought to trial. The Petitions were then ordered to lie on the table, ELECTION BILL. Mr. C. W. WYNN moved the commitment of the Election Lass Amendment Bill. Colonel ALLAN opposed going into the Com.. millet. Mr. C. W. WYNN wished all opposition to the measure to be postponed to a (store stage ; and after sonic observations on the part of several Member., the wish of Mr. Wynn was acceeded to, on en on.. derstentling that he was to postpone the third reading to Monday se'nnight. The House hiving gone into a Committee, several Amendments were moved pro forma.—The Report was ordered to be received to.morrow. Mr. OGLE moved the second reading of tbe Gaming Suppression Bill. Mr. BA NKES moved, that the Bill be read a tie* coed time this day six months. The origins! motion was then negatived, intik* Bill was thrown out.—Adjourned. _-~ COURT OF COMMON COUNCIL. Yesterday the Lord Mayor held a Special Court of Common Council, for the purpose of Petitioning Parliament for enquiring into the conduct of Mini sters during the Suspension Act, and that no Bill et indemnity might be passed. THE LATE IitECUTIONIL After some converastion respecting the production of the Report of the Committee respecting the late Executions, it was produced and read, and merely stated that the City Comptroller had written to the Sheriffs to attend the Committee, but that these Gen... tiemen had declined it. The enquiry into the dis. graceful conduct of the executioner had not been gone into, but would be laid before the neat Court. Mr. Alderman WOOD stated, that as Mr. Shedd' Alderson was now present, the Court probably would hear his explanation of thedelay which took place.— (Hear, hear !) Mr. Sheriff ALDERSON declared, thst he now 'rose with the greatest pain to address the Court on this most distrest.ing subject, which had so much attracted she public notice. He regretted exceedingly that his Colleague was not now present, on account of what he was now to submit to the Court. He felt that a. public charge had been made against the Sheriffs, and on that account he Ivad declined meeting the Commit tee, considering that it was his duty to make his statement publicly, that the Court and Public might be satisfied. On the Sunday prior to the eaecutioft, he visited the unhappy delinquents, and, not only furnished them with the means of supplying their wants, but gave money for the purpose of their bodies being decently laid out, and also for the fees being paid, in or der that they might be delivered up to their friends.— (near!). At the moment of approaching the fatal drop, the unfortunate women were in such a state, that had they been brought forward they must have expired without being sensible they were entering into the immediate presence of God.—( Hear !)—fiesides, the Court should recollect, that when they elected Sheriffs they entrusted them with discretionary powers, and ought, therefore, to bare confidence in them. The drop fell at Wor 25 minutes after eight, the signal being given rather in a sudden manner by the Ordinary. This might have occasioned the ropes being badly adjusted, and as one of the women asked Hatchroad to salute her, this also might bays caused the rope in her case being wrong. He could, however, on his conscience declare, that he did not see any struggle take place till the drop fell, and be hoped he had now satisfactorily explained the cause of the delay.—(Fleur, hear!) Mr. CROOK defended the motives by which he was actuated in bringing this before the Court, and con fessed himself highly satisfied with the explanation of the Sheriff. At the same time, he condemned the conduct of the executioner as shameful and oboe& nable in the extreme.—( hear, hear!) —lie would, in a day or two, be prepared with evidence on the case, which he considered the most flagrant eras kWown its London.—( Rear, hear!) Mr. Alderman BIRCH was well satisfied with the conduct of the Shelia'. pis approved alb* . case ~. ~w . As , ~`+~ 1 11 r, "NIS I