The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1808-04-08 00:00:00

found itself compelled not specifically to propose , the saint measure. In that light, thereforeot be cline his duty to limit the clue. , tion-of the present Bill; as he thoujt, if they could succeed in car rying a measure to prevent - any further Reversions front being granted for a specific period of time, they might afford a mere ample scope to any bene ficial suggestions proceeding from the financial Committee, or from any individual Members of the House, italic intermediate period. He certainly hoped that in the mean time some great political measure might be adopted, to effect what appeared to him of considerable importance in various points of view ; he meant an absolute restriction of the pre rogative of the Crown, in granting Offices in Re version. At the same time that it was his desire to do that which was most practicable, he alto wished to adopt that mode which would appear to be most conciliating, and least offensive to the other House of Parliament. It was with these motives that be had studiously abstained from say ing any thing more as to the proceedingo of their Lordships, in the other House, than what was ab s‘Outely necessary, in commenting upon them, to keep up the spirit of the law and the constitution of the country. In making his former observations as to the limitation of time that might be neces- Iwo, it occurred to him that it would be entirely in vain to take a longer limitation than that which had been suggested us the Houle of Lords. To have prooosed to put it off to a period of nine or ten years would. probable, have created a disunion, and shewn a want of harmony between the two Houses of Purliauseut. He hod, therefore, only stated geaerally, that an amendment having been suggested in the Committee of the House of Lords, to hamit the duration of the former Bill to two years, he should propose that as the period to which the present one should be limited. This, however, he had only thrown out as what had at first occurred to him to be the most convenient limited pet led to be fixed upon •' hut,' the [louse werenot partieular ly pledged to adopt that first suogestion, he should state lessons for making an alteration in what he had thus hinted at. It did appear from the notes of their Lordships Journals, now before the Ho.' a, that that particular term was specifically proposed, and actually rejected; a cireuinstatiee whits 'ad since weighed upon him se stroliglo, that lie saw the impropriety of - fixing upon - a term that had already been proposed in the former bill, and which had abet with the fate of the bill itself. In short, he thought it might possibly he deemed streasiee to t.ieir Lordships* dionity, and put them in an ill disposition to carry this other measure, and therefore it was mdst advisable to relinquish that, and adopt aimeher period of limitation.— It would hare the good elect too, that it ' wield put an cord to any opinion that might pro'otbly exist, as to its being a captious moil invi dio is proceeding, again to offer a measure pre cii tly the serve as that which had already been re jeesed. For the purpose of avoiding these incon ee iiences, therefore. he should propose to fill so the tine blank in the Bill, by inserting the words " for one year after the passing of this Act, and until six weeks after the com mencement of the next ensuing Session of Par- Lament." This would give the House the re noisier of this, the whole of the next, and six weeks of the Session following it, to consider the propriety of enforcing, more specifically. particular abohticeis of offices and sinecures—Of/ear ! Leer ! hear 1J In 'loin; this, he conceived that he had sot departed from the principle with which he had originally set out, as be wished to impress upon the Ilouse that they had yet a farther duty to per form, and which this limited term might pro bably afford a sufficient opportunity of fulfilling.— Ile thought, that within that time there would likely be ample opportunity for the Committee, now sitting, or for individual Members of the House, ....luso inquiries might direct them to those subjects, to ascertain the nature and circumstances atreod in.; the places. pensions, and emoluments, compre leaded in this Bill. that have been so grautei. By this 'aeons, the House would be enabled more easily to take legislative mrasures upon any of them they might afterwards deem exceptionable, or to do away the general provision as to the abo lition oh some of them. This, therefore, in every point of view, appeared to him to be a measure of limitation applicable to all the circumstances of the ran. Besides this, be was also desirous of stating his motives for proposing some alterations upon the preamble of the Bill in qnestion. Ile had heard it erica suggested, that no sufficient case had ever been made out to juatity the total prnhihitioo of such reversionary grants ; and altlinigh this suggestion had made no impreasion upon his mind, yet, is order to avoid it in future, and make the Bill still more applicable to the particular ciecumstances be fore the House, he should propose that. instead of the words.. shush' be ed." the words.. should be etapeaded," be inserted. By proposing these alteratioin upon the Bill, he hoped the Itielo Hon. Gentleman opposite would be eonrincel that he concurred with him in carrying this rnemire in a manner the least objectionable to the other House of Parliament, the more especially as that Right Hon. Gentleman had ahead , stated, that he had an objeetioo to the phr o r ., of the former Bill, tool that his only view in propooine amendments upon the present one was, to give it the best op portunity of pursing the }Louse of Lords. Bit had lint beau for this purpose, that Bi,tht /lon. Gentle man would not hare proposed similar amendments nissa the former Bills, and he, (11r. Banker) there f:,-e, hoped, that lie (the Chancellor of the &wile apler) would have no difficulty in tom givin_ them no. as it was impoootale the House could, o pro priety, isequieme in them. l'lsretiv4cruma of the Feenrorrit said, slot uelinubt e dly the Hon. Ceritienotis had done l,im but justice ism stating, that hi. sole nbi, •-t in lug this lisp was, to render it more 1w0...hi , : in t h e *tiler Fin;ese t.f Pasliaineot, and aim. that it sloeild not. upon One fire of it, hear .ii• :1 a or.;:r re 4.ln totalce to the for tier one, which had I.ee i a, to to,,ke it I.e r,:• t Led al,n. Su• :I Vv . ; ii:;:yaona lie heel when lie nbirrie'l Is th' sine n.f.! Gruticrritt.t flirt foritierl; made in ro7leemt, , : 1:1:4 NV: , it lie RieLeii hs formsrly oroocoe.l, was the takin . ,„; tilt very ~ f the soo o .o which kid Iteen n . tve.! in the (70iiimittee of sL. ilousT of Lords.f.y a largcr I.l.,jorie than Cwt. I.v velliel! the Bill it,elr had n reed, slid it tiicrefuie oectionl to him to be aissurito tender to their Lordships a similar measure. He bad never been reserved in stating his opiuion upon dire subject, and it had been bronght forward in the House of Lords by a Noble Friend of his, with hii ti,tire concurrence and support, as far, at least, as his eonneetion with it still existed. He entirely coucurreit 111 the state ment the Hon. Geiatletuau had now made, and as his objections were now in a g r.tut measure obvi ated, lie should withdraw the amendment. he hid formerly proposed. ( !Icor ! hear.'/ lie heartily approved of submitting to the other House such a measure as would not lead th-in to imagine they were entirely to abandon their legislative prover, and therefore he could not help approving of the alteration made , by introducing the word suspended" instead of " prohibited." Tie pro ceedings of this House should be of a nature that did not in the least insult the dignity of the other House, or encroach upon their li;eisiative powers, by the assumption of any of their privileges.— He might pot it to the House, what would he their own feelings were the House of Lords to en croach upon their course of proceedings, of which they were always, and with propriety, most jealous? The other amendment seemed to bins to alter the shape of the Bill, so far as to induce, probably, the other House to accede to the measure. He still wished it to he understood, he had by no meson changed his mind on the subject of the si9. (Hear ! !war ! H. confessed he saw no great arivaiitagf f 6 the public. nor was he apprehensive of any greet danger to the prerogative, by the passing of this Bill. There was, to be sure, some alteration in the principle of the Bill, so far as it affected the pre rogative, inasmuch as it prohibited thai being granted by theCrowu,in reversion,which had hither to been granted, without any controversy, in rever sion upon reversion. But he conjectured the end of the measure, if passed,would be toinerease that pre rogative of which it seemed to be jealous. He con ceived grants in reversion to he thecheapest mode of rewarding public services. Many men might be aa tisfied with the expectation dui riving at that situa tion which, if actually possessed. without reversion, would satisfy but one. ( A general laugh He thought, us it had excited public interest, it was but just the present Bill should pass both Houses. Hence he was inclined to accept of the amendments of the Honourable Mover. '1 he mode in which the motion was now brought forward, perfectly ngreed with his wishes, and Ite had principally arisen this night to take this opportunity of publicly answer ing the questions which had been put to him on a preceding evening, by a candid exposition of his entire sentiments on this measure. Ile knew not whether their Lordships would accept of the Bill in its present state, but he was induced to hope, Itom the alterations which had taken place, they might. WIUTIMEAD said, he would feel it his duty to propose another amendment to the Bill, iu a fu ture stage of its progress. lie had very 'Ade hopes this Bill, after all its modifications, would meet with the sentiments and approbation of the other House, which the Right lion. Member seemed so anxious to propitiate, that he was almost inclined to sacrifice to their humour the dignity of the House of Common s . The iintneaiate saving by the present Bill he considered trifling in deed, perhaps nothing; but the ultimate ad vantage, expected from the motion, lie thougil weighty and substantial : at least there existed au imperious necessity to gratify the public feeling, when that feeling was established and warranted on such stable foundations as the public exigencies. ( Hear ! hear !) He thought with the Right Hon. Gentleman opposi to, there wasi oat reason to congra tulate the !louse on the Right Hon. Member's bar ing drowsed altogether his intention of moving any additional amendments to the present Bill. He. and ne believed the public also, felt, those amend ments would materially affect any Bill whatever of this nature. What possible advantage could re sult from publishing reversionary grants in the public papers ? Or what advantage could arise from *gym* by ea amendment, that the granting of reversions should be no hindrance hereafter to any probable and rational scheme of reform ? The situation of guardian of the dignity of the Lords, in which the Light Hon. Gentleman hail placed him self, was rather singular for a Chancellor of the Ex-. chequer, an 3 the supervisor of the public burdens. Hear ! hear ! loudly reiterated.) His situation should at bast have linked him to the interests of the Commons. lie thought. it rather 'no much to demand of the Commons, that the Bill which they had passed, with only one dissentient voice, (he did not doubt for the most substantial reasons), should be effectually cut up and hashed to suit their deli rate palates. But if the House did not think tit to agree in the proposed alteration, it would cause a quarrel between the two Houses. This, indeed, was what he could mint hear to hear stated. He was anxious also, the Houses should be on the best possible understate:Mg. But as yet he heard no satisfactory reason to conclude, that the !louses would be led to agree one tittle more by the proposed amendment as to limitation of time. Such an attempt to lead the House into a concession should at least be fottuiled on something peoitive. No such comprouise itail, he believed, from the silence of their Lordships' Advocates ever born made. The p . ..ineiple, oa the contrary, had been avowed to he the caii.,e of dissension; and a Noble Lord, the friend of the Right Honourable Gentleman, had, on at former night, found him self strangely in a minority, although at the head, at least noininelly, of His Majesty's Government ; o hilst a grand majority appeared in favour of the most uncontrouled system of reversionary grants, at the head of which were sera the Priaces of the Blood, ranged in tattalia. This was a speaing part. Little was hence to be expected from those Noblemen who hail so opeid:.. deserted the King's Minister, when the subject mine to i To be ore thy-re were many engines, besides the apparent I.lterfertere of tie b:aster, by which the House could be ooverne.l.and rendered o`redient old sub missive. Perhaps Ili- Mates-Ws MMisters had been .1 tee red by tie,- a a Loin !bey had most und u te cable n,• g i..i•tril to roas•ilt. By. snit cnuduct they Resit mi a ,ui,iCCt• on which the country h mil little h it spc-ulative inferences to direct them in their pellments hitherto. They shrived th e y were merely the po-Fessors of the places they held. witlio.it the pliw•r e;li;ch hal hitherto accompanied the pno",l , tl i•C plices of hi;;li trust and re casusibtlity. . The Coanuons of Great Britain then were placed in this situation : On the suggestion of His Majesty in his speech, the House had passed a Bill of this nature in a former year, which had met with a defeat in the Lords. An Address had then hem' drawd up by the Commons, requesting that no Grants in Reversion should be made until the meeting of Parliament. A Bill then passed the Common; again for the same purpose, hut without any limitation. Tins aphis experienced a similar defeat ; and now th e Right lion. Gentleman would wish to perelade the House, ths. a similar Pill, if passed by this House. would lead to a feeling of ani mosity and hostility between the two Houses. If there had been any ofi)uce in the who!e busi isess,the offence, as it consisted in the avowal o 'the principle, had long since taken place, and could not be remedied. The line which duty pointed out was clear and express. The present bill, awl those which preceded it, had been the first fruits of the Committee of Finance. If it shoold be re jected, there remained but little hope of any thing being dose effectual to relieve the state of its into lerable burdens, since this had been the fiinrth ap plication of Parliament. As he had no hope the House of Lords would acquiesce even in this mo dified state of the bill, lie said he should feel it his duty, on the reception of the report, when he hoped for a full attendance, to move for the orals sionyf the limitation as to time. • Mr. DAVICS GtnOtr contended, from the result of certain tailculatious he had made on the subject of reversioriary and other grants of placer and pen sions, that the public were considerable gainers by the mode of giving aversions, instead of places or pensions. If those who were to be rewarded by Governwelit for their services, received immediate salaries equivalent to those of which they only now received the reversion, the average of grants would amount to triple the sum now expended in reward ing the same services. I-k thought the first duty of the Legislature was, the preservatiou of private property. Reversions had hitherto been consider ed the private property of the subject, and the per sonal right of the King. They were lieuce enti tled to the protection of Parliament, and certainly there was some deference due to the principle* and wishes of the other House. Mr. 1c i.t.ea conceived the present measure as a means tbrawu out to occupy the public attention, in. the same way as the whalers throw out a tub to amuse the whale ; and he conceived it would end as all matters of management had hitherto ended. The slave trade, he coutended, hail been also a matter of rnatiagernerit, mud it ton had fallen short of the mark. He felt fur the public, but he thought they ga.ned nothing by the proposed amendment. It' it could, however, be of the least service to the country, he should riot make any oppo-itioti to its passing in ifs present state. JOllri Nxweoar said, from his own know ledge of the state of Ireland, the Bill was abso lutely riecessary . in that country. The custom of granting reversions, in the -different branches of the public service, had so rapidly increased of late years. that in the Customs of Ireland he himself knew of three differeut complicated reversions be ing given in one deportment, the revenues of which anionqted to upward, of 90001. per annum* without taking into consideration the immense re versionary stunts in the law and other departments. He maintained, the evils of reversions were not al says to be calculated on by the incomes annexed to these situations, brit by the impediment they were to future retrenchments and projected re fonnatiOn. Of the wide-extended influence of this pernicious system, he would give an instance from a situation in the Customs of the city of Dublin, where the place of storekeeper, one of considerable emolument. had been given to two persons in re version, after the present possessor, and next to three infaut children. In this situation. notwith standing, the Deit alone did the duty of the of fi ce, dischar ged all expenses attending the execution of this office, and paid into the hands of the storekeeper an immense revenue for doing nothing whatever. When he was in office, he said, he, through a coevittion of the beriedits which would result to the public from removing such claimants es those lie had men fished, upon so very valuable a reversion, had pro posA to the guirardians of these infants, compen sation in lieu of their reversions. that the plan might be open to reform. The arising from this situation was generally felt. As the store keeper latil the public stores at his service, he finds he can permit, at a very low rate, much below even the propnetor of private stores. to let the goods reinam stored in the Custom-house. Hence the merdiant, rather than inconvenience hi abet( by paying the duties on the goods, permits them to remain in the public stores without paying duty ; and hi.nce, if they. be perishable goods, the pub lic are robbed of so much as the duties on theAo goods would here produced to the public funds. The oßices also of Craver and Forfeiter to the Public Offices ; the Comptroller of the port of Cork ; the Examiner of the Customs of Wexford ; the Taster of Wine* afro:W . l(4ft Ireland ; had all been deeply dipped in the system of reversion. The last of these, a situation of great and extraor dinary emolument, had formerly belonged to the ancient Kings of Irel .Id, acrd with that dignity it should also have fallen into disuse., as it had ou!y been intended as a means of rnpph ing the Royal revenue. But it now•svas held a cc nplete sinecure by a considerable man in that kits: ohm; he Cid not wish to go about the hush, he should therefore name him. Mr. Bere.ford ; the Cranership had been given in retersiots from Mr. Conway, the pre sent possessor. to his Mother. When such glaring facts spoke so strongly the necessity of the measure, when the opinion of the House had been already given in favour of the proposed reforms, when the statement/ of the Commissioners of Inquiry bad been laid before the House, and the enormous list of public burd..ns already presented had oaly been the result of their inquiries in the department of the 'seise, when these rever sionary grants were ever found to affect the Coo soli.lated Fund, it certainly was the duty of the li-lase to interfere in correcting an evil, which, it was mui h to he feared, would ultimately destroy the few remaining resources of the country. But when :11 the grants of places, pensions, ii.id rever sions, should be taken into oonsideration, which had been given whei. the snliject of the Uuiie. was upon the tapir. by the No'ale Lord, whom Le could not then see in his place, (Lord Castle. reagh,) 'and whom he had alwpys observed, for some reason, to be absent wlan any thing was expected to he said of the metals and devices by which that destructive measure was carried into effect in Itc h'," ; when it waA recollected that the Commit tee ap!xiiiited to examine the claim * of per :a likely to he injured by that measure, - dAbentted for three u ceks, to ascertain whether the rat catcher of the Board of Ordituuce should be lemi **eroded for his services ; when it wits recollected. that the Noble Lord, applying to an Irish Pee,. to take upon It in the situatioti of Chairman of the C'oiniuittee of 1l ays and Means, when he tr.- pressed • wish to declincthe Ofee. replied:" Take' it, take it, toy friend, for. this year; there wilt be au end to the whole parliament next year, we have resolved upon it, sod you shall receive rtinuneration for your wliole life to come; for the country, my friend, owes you much fu• the steady and uaiforin support you late given to !Trusters, through the whole course of your useful career." These are facts he was well acquainted with; he challenged the Noble Lord to open his month on the subject; all he wished for was au opportuity of bringing the mat ter to the test, and he could produce even the letters of the Noble Lord to prove the • facts. lt, • however, had been always candidly asoided.---• Those who had really beet' injured by that mea sure, bad received no compensation whatever, whilst every species of jobbing and compromise to attain this cud was omm:bled, avid too gene rally succeeded. That the real sufferers should find there was no validity in promises in that quarter wis not to be wondered et, when the whole nation was so well apprised of the ease with Which the Noble Lord -got his plighted faith and public promises of redress td the ensnared Catholics of Ireland. Ms Worm:tem said, the statement of the Ho nourable. Aleinber (Mr. Giddy) was erroneous, and it prim:cedes! from the.principlee ou which his ealee!itOons were founded being fallacious. He professed himself a friend to every salutary mea sure of reform. Mr. Tisatiee wished to know, whether, after • the measure had been before the House for tiro Sessions. it was the reel intention of His Majesty's Miuisterstlie Bill should besessasted in its progress by the Italie:nee of the Government of the country ? Lord Poacneirma thought nothing conald'poi. prove 'the necessity of the present Bill p Hass ingl into a law, if the statements of the Right o nourable Baronet would not esiablish it. He hoped the br a very of the . British Navy and Army Would mike it often necemary Or give them Krauts of pensions and places; but such might be gives without adding to the future burdens of the public, - . and impeding the progress of reform hereafter, by granting reversions. Reversions had been culled a . sheep mode of rewarding merit. This was per haps true ; for sometimes it happened they were the only means left in the gamer of the Ministry ; yet even of these there often was a very greet scarcity, from the Ministers imprudently lavishing them en infant children of unworthy favourites. On the ground. the strong ground of consistency, the Commoos should support the pampa Bill; seelr would at least have been the line of conduct per. seed by our ancestors. I like them, we will carry our point, by repeatetr;rniseisti rig this Bill. in spite of the (mines of Prinees--(llear ! Hear !) Mr. WILBERFORCE said, he thought much was due to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the wish he expressed to preserve the greatest cordiality be tween this House and the Mouse of Lords. That House was a part of the Legislature, and had as just right to freedom of opinion, and even respect to their prejudices, as the House of Commons. The present he thought the only means of carry ing this desirable measure into effect. He wished to avoid subjecting the other House to any odium; he world rather meet them half way, than unne cessarily lead the country to suppose their Lord ships were not well affected to the public welfare. lie should therefore give all possible support to any species of just accommodation with the o th er branch of the Legidature. Mr. Measles- said, it had been very injudici ously assumed by several, and. amongst others, Honourable Mover. that the present concession, as to the duration of the hill, would procure its bring passed into a Isw. This be by no means iutereded as an objection to the principles' which had actu ated that Honourable Gentleman. He felt they were pure and worthy of his heart—hot the sod - position was net founded in fact. If the House of Lords would permit it to pass with thiet amendment, for his part he should feel no ob• hection to its pining in its present f orm . H e ighly respected the other House, but be felt his duty called him not to swerve from the interests of his constituents. He bad asked the intuitions at the Ministry with respect to the assieteoce they intended to give the measure. They •had given no answer—nor could they. It wes no Cabinet measure. If it should pass here, who was then to bring it on in the House of "Ards ? There it must fall for want of support. For it should be re membered, tie-4 objection is so grounded against the principle itf the Bill. that the opposition to it truly increased when the grounds of objection la. came fewer, and the lAll became limited. Hence, en the House of Lords the.a was no hope from con cession. They professed they would never yield--. the Commons should els* prifus their decided re solution, in the same trims, es the guardians of the pieldie. He admitted, one branch of the Legible tute 'should not be ma le unpre,ular. (Hear ! front I the Misietr..). The Japed of tie Legislature lied bee., rendered l n ,',k to urpnpularity, ou a former eccasonn, by these very advisers of forbear ance. The melancholy truth was.there now lurked to-hisel the throne a dark cabal and secret jute°, that direcool, unfortunately for the country, the whole machine. •To them the Government itself was subject ; and h e h a d heard, do. j1114i3 has had the hisid.ees. to avow eyes to the Ministry, they knew who hail made them Ministers, and they should, if refill( tory, learn also also could in a motneat non. t e there. It appeared truly, as it had been mot, this Bill had been only th-OAn es I. ro the public, in its present shape, as a tub to a whole. to port with while the t;ovb•rnment, • ;nd help 'em, hod nothing further to dr, with it !but let it be tort soon: fur a wiu!e, and finale : - Lot. A greet es.: at-