The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-01-17 00:00:00

f~ i~ ) I e' 4 ' , N. I! Pi ~~~'' Y 5i . 7 r , I it defray all the expences attending the Establishment of the Household. In the first instance, it would be necessary to draw front the Civil List 170,0001. and then to add 70,0001. to it from the Consolidated Fund. The Civil List would thus devolve upon his Royal Highness the Prince Regent 100,0001. less than when his Majesty came to the Throne. —lle proposed that Commissioners should be appointed by her Majesty, one of whom, he ton teived, abbuld be a Master in Chancery, for the pur pose of arranging and collecting all his Majesty's property, and superintending the payments from the Privy Purse; these Commissioners, he thought, should act under an oath of secrecy, and he pro posed that the audit of the accounts of the Privy Purse should devolve upon them, inasmuch as they were interested in the management of the surplus of that Fund.—[We understood that Mr. Tierney asked across the table, what would be the salary of the Commissioners? and that Mr. Percoval replied, 10001. per annum r this matter, however, he said, might be the subject of a future discussion.] He now came to the consideration of the situation of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent v with regard to the Civil List Establishment. It sight seem the best way to meet the addition to the Civil List, by extinguishing his Royal Highness's revenue in the Exchequer ; hut, as he had a right to hold It till he came to the Throne, and as many ne- . emery arrangements and obligations might he dis turbed, it was not proper to interfere with that Fund. Ile therefore conceived, that when the whole ar rangement of the Household would devolve upon his Royal Highness, with the deduction of one hundred thousand pounds, the expenditure, which could not be supposed to be so great ti's that of his Majesty's, when in possession of the Royal Authority, would be easily met by the addition which he proposed. lie thought, that his Royal Highness and his ser vants would be unfairly dealt with, if the Civil List was transferred to them under the condition, that it should be solvent for the purpose of defraying his Majesty's expences. To avoid this, there had been laid before the House a correct account of the estimate of the Civil List since 1401, and of the actual charge. In the year ending January, 1805, theexcess of the ac tual charge of the Civil List beyond the estimate, wits 120,0001. in the next year 160,(0)1. in the next 130,0001. in the next 89,0001. in the next 133,0001. in the next 143,0001. and in the last year 110,0001. From this account the excess could be averaged, as it was found that in the last two years there was no excess beyond what first took place. He rated the average at 123,0001. or 124,0001. This excess, the House was aware, had been always discharged out of that part of his Majesty's revenue which was not appropriated to any particular purpose; it had been also paid out of the Droits of Admiralty. He was convinced that the House would agree with him in thinking it improper to apply to the public for assist ance, while another fund existed. In case of any excess, it was right that the House should have inti mation of that excess; and it was, therefore, neces sary to provide that it should be brought under the immediate notice of Parliament. There was another point to which he wished to refer : he apprehended that it would appear reasonable to the Committee, to give a vote for defraying the expences incurred in the assumption the Royal Authority, and in the main tenance of the dignity of the Prince Regent in the palace in which he resides. He had prepared a Resolution, declaring that provision should be made for defraying such expenses, and he stated his inten tion of proposing a vote to his Royal Highness of 100,0001. for this purpose. The Hoeft) would per ceive that this was only for one year. Respecting the p4manent grant of 70,0001. he conceived that, un der the existing circumstances, it could not bt less. The Right Honourable Gentleman concluded by ex pressing a hope that his propositions of arrangement had been intelligible to the Committee, and by mov ing a Resolution, expressive of the opinion of the House, that an addition of 70,0001. from the Con solidated Fund, should be made to the Civil List, when under the controul of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent. The Resolution was put from the Chair, upon which Mr. PONSONRY observed, that he rose with no disposition to criticise any thing in the plan which the Right Honourable Gentleman had just submitted to the Committee; bat still, with deference to him, he must soy, that what the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated, appeared to him a matter of more com plexity than any thipg which he had ever before heard submitted to Parliament, notwithstanding that the subject appeared to be one of almost the greatest possible simplicity. The first question which natu rally occurred to every person was, What was the amount of the expence demanded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer from Parliament on the present occasion ?--and the next question was—what ground and necessity existed for the expence so demanded? In entering upon the consideration of the subject be fore the Committee, it would be necessary for him to reverse the order followed by the Right Honour. able Gentleman, and to examine first, what had last been by him submitted to them. The Right lion. Gentleman had told them, that the Civil List was not sufficient to defray the charges to which it was liable, and that it would be necessary for them to I calculate upon a permanent annual excess of the charges over the means provided to answer them.— All this might be very true—but for his part, as he was ignorant of the causes which rendered the Civil List inadequate, it was impossible for him to come to the conclirsions of the Right Honourable Gentle man, for he must have proof that the present amount was insufficient to meet the expenditure, and not the mere allegation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was so. It was the duty of the House to know how that excess had taken place, and that it had not taken place from extravagance, but had arisen front Just and necessary causes. But how oould any man be justified in voting such a large additional sum of money, without any proof, and upon nothing more than a mere allegation of excess ?—The Right Ho nourable Gentleman had stated to them various breeches of the service of the Civil List, which he .thought in the present state of things ought to be increased, and which, on that account, would re quire an additional expence. With respect to this part of the statement, it struck him that the sins- 1 pleat way of proceeding was this :—They had voted a certain sum for the maintenance of tke dignity of tike Crown, and for supporting the cipeaces of Go- THE VA! vernment—in that provision certain dispositions had been thought proper to be made by them, —but these revenues were now, by the unfortunate event which had taken place, necessarily transferred to him;who,as Regent, was substituted in the place of him who wore the Crown, —to the person who was in the ex ercise of the Functions of Sovereignty. The Gown was at present provided for, and the neir Apparent welegalso provided for; Thr most newel - wars' proceeding therefore was—Give to. him whoexercises • the functions of sovereignty, all that is' deemed ne cessary for the support of the Crown : and give to the heir Apparent all that Parlitunent may have also thought necessary for the seppbrt 'of his dignlfy.—He should have thought it necessary, therefore, that the amount of the other branches of revenue, with the. proposed deductions from them, should have been stated, and then the amount of the revenue which the Prince had right to as Heir Apparent, so that it might at once be seen whether the amount of the lat ter exceeded or fell, short of these deductions ; and if it fell short, it was then the duty of the House to vote such a specific sum to his Royal Highness, as would make the revenue to be possessed by him as good as what was possessed by his Father, when reigning Sovereign of this country.—But instead of this simple and obvious mode of pro ceeding, the 'Right Honourable Gentleman, by first taking so much from the Civil List, and then taking so much from the revenue of the Prince of Wales, had introduced such a complexity into his whole plan, that, for his part, he was not ashamed to say, he could form no accurate conception of it. The Right Hon. Gent. had stated to them, on the authority of the evidence of the Physicians,_ that it would re quire a considerable sum of money to keep up such a state 'of splendour as might render the situation of his Majesty comfortable. Whatever might be neces sary for that purpose, no man could more cheerfully consent to grant than himself, for no man could feel more for the distresses of his Sovereign, or be more sincerely disposed to contribute to their alleviation ; but he could find nothing ih the evidence of the Phy sicians ; and he had attended,the Committee from the beginning to the end of their examination, which in the least justified the supposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had contemplated the possibility of his Majesty's recovering to a sort of middle state, a state which would neither be perfect sanity nor yet insanity ; a state in which he might remember his for mer situation, and entertain just views on many of the ordinary occurrences of life, and yet not possess such a degree of j udgment as to render him fit for the resumption of the royal function ; a state which he might safely say would certainly be the most calami tous to his Majesty that it is possible for the mind of man to conceive—for what could be a great2r calami ty than to be restored to such a degree of sensibility as might render him alive to all the horrors of his un happy state, and add to his other miseries the consci ousness of his degradation ? But there was nothing in the evidence of the Physicians to justify this suppo sition. The Right Ilonourable Gentleman had at tended the Committee as well as himself, and this middle state must have been equally present to his mind et that time as at the present ; but he would put it to him if he had put any question to the Physi cians respecting the possibility of this intermediate state, or had obtained any evidence from them on the subject. All the Physicians, with the exception of Dr. Simmons, had said that his Majesty recovery was extremely imprubable, one of them had said that it was all but impossible ; but what evidence was there of this sort of nondescript state anticipated by the Right Honourable Gentleman. As to the evidence 'of Dr. Simmons, if the Right Honourable Gentleman should think proper to give it a resonsideration, he was afraid he would find but very little comfort in that evidence ; fur though it had been stated by Dr. Simmons, that he had found instances of persons re covering at that advanced period of life, yet those in stances were very rare indeed ; and this very remark able circumstance had been also stated by him, that ho had never known one instance of a blind person labouring under insanity who had finally recovered—that he had known only seven cases of this description, and that all of them had proved unfortunate cases.—So that the Right Honour- I able Gentleman could not justify the sum which he required for the maintenance of the dignity and corn.; fort of his Majesty, on the evidence of Dr. Simmons,' or on the evidence of any of the other Physicians.— What was, there, in the peculiar situation of his Ma jesty, lie would ask, ich could make the existence! of such a large establishment necessary to his com fort? Could he see the splendour with which it was proposed to surround him P—That was impossible. i Were there attendants to be obtained familiarly to approach him ?—This the nature of his case would not allow. That was then necessary to his Majesty ? Was it such an establishment as might enable him on his return to a happier state to resume, without diffi culty, his Royal functions ?—This was the considera tion by which the House had last year been influenc ed ; but the case was widely altered at present-1 when, from the concurring cordance of all the Physi cians, little or no hopes of this return was left. If this happy return should ever take place, the exercise of the Royal power would also return to him, and all , the functions of Royalty would necessarily revert to him again. There was another part of the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, to which he could not help adverting, and that was, that on account of the diminished domestic state of the King,a smaller num ber of coaches and horses would be rendered necessary, and that 10,0001. additional should, on this account, be granted to her Majesty, the Queen—that is be cause his Majesty requires fewer coaches and horses, an additional income becomes necessary to the Queen. But how could the diminution of the expeuce neces sary to his Majesty, create an additional increase of expence to the Queen ?—When his Majesty was in the possession of .health, he used these things for his own purposes ; and when he was out ' of health, they were not necessary to the com forts of the Queen. Because the King was not in a I state to enjoy his usual comforts, it was not surely necessary to put her Majesty, the Queen. to any ad ditional expence. This was a mode of reasoning which he confessed himself utterly unable to com prehend. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said that there were circumstances attending the situ.] ation of his Majesty which did not attend that of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent ; 'and that the • "-linseed of the latter would necessar4 be-one.' Irrir• „"-• lESMAN. ' .• • more limited scale, because his family was not so large as that of his father. He confessed himself not sufficiently acquainted with the details of the. Civil List to be able to give any opinion on this subject; -but he certainly was inclined to think, from the little he knew, that the Right lion. Gentleman had very much overrated the difference. of expence, if he thought that with any material deduction on such an !amount, it "gravid be in the power of the-Prince Re gent to display that magnificence which his father was-enabled to do; for he was of opinion, that the greatest part of the expence did not arise from the number of children, and that it was on that account Much .the same, whether there were three or four more, or three or four leSs. But he would repeat, that lie did not possess a sufficient acquaintance with this subject to enable him to speak with any thing like certainty. Indeed this observation would with propriety apply to the whole of the Right Honour able Gentleman's plan, in which there was a com plexity, that in his mind was not to be got over.— Unless the Right Hon.Gentlentan, therefore, should think proper to shew him a simple and more obvious plan, he could not see with what propriety he could allow himself to vote the sums stow demanded by him, beca use it was the duty of Parliament never to grant any money unless the people might be clearly enabled to see that they were justified in snaking such grant. They had already had sufficieut experience, that if there should be any thing inexplicable in their conduct, there were not wanting those who hal every inclination to charge them with prodigality, or what was perhaps worse. It was the duty of the House, therefore, to make it clear to the public, that at a period like the present, when the expences of the situation in which the country was involved, were so enormously large, they were strictly warranted by the necessities of the case, in voting whatever sum they might think proper to bestow. There was another head of expence to which the Right lion. Gentleman alluded, respecting which he had also to profess himself entirely ignorant, and that was the 100,0001. necessary to defray the expence at tending the assumption of the Regency. When this expence had been mentioned on the former year, it was well known by all of them, that his Royal Highness had then declined receiving any thing from the public on that account. The Right Honourable Gentleman had told them that he would be able to satisfy the House that the sum was not more than what was adequate for the occasion.— This he might, or he might not, he able to do ; but certainly his Royal Highness could expect no more' from that Honse than a disposition to grant whatever sum should be shown to them to be necessary under each head of expenditure. Upon the whole, lie hoped that the Right Honourable Gentleman would not wish to hasten the consideration of the Resolu tions, but allow them to lie for a few days on the table ; in which case he assured him he would endea vour to comprehend that plan, which, nt present, he was not ashamed to confess himself totally unable to do. He did not mean to say that he objected to the plan either particularly, or in all its parts ; all that he meant to say was, that he did not wish to be understood to have consented to it either in whole or in part. He wished to grant what the splendour of Monarchy required, and more than this he was cer tainly unwilling to do. The CHANG E1.1.0R of the EXCHEQUER, stated that he should have no objection to allowing the Resolu tions 1) inx on the table, did he not conceive that the plan would with more propriety come under consideration at a subsequent period. The natural course, if the Resolu tions were adopted, would be for a Bill to follow them. He was sensible, that when communicating to the Conimittee so.extensive a plan as the present, and he had es ted that circumstance to them, the House would hardly be enabled to follow him, and he had also stated to them that more full informa tion would be afforded them when the Bill should be brought in. The Resolution, as was well known, was the first step ; for till their Resolution was agreed to, no Bill could be introduced. No Bill could be brought in till Monday, and at that time he should not have the smallest objection to enter upon any discussion which might be thought necessary. In what the Right lion. Gentleman opposite had said respecting his Majesty, he confessed himself unable to comprehend what it was that he would wish. He seemed to think, that his Majesty should be allowed every comfort trec , ssiry to his situation; but surely the Right Honourable Gentleman ought to have re flected also, that he was still our King, and that he was not to be entirely siript of every appearance of Royal splendour.—pleur fl—The Right Honour able Gentleman, in examining the present plan, had appeared to allude to the Report of the Physicians respecting •the hopelessness of his Majesty's reco very, and of their total silence respecting that in termediate period, which he (Mr. Perceval) had contemplated the possibility of ; and it would seem that he thought the attendance upon his Majesty should, on that account, resemble that of an ordinary sick chamber. He confessed that this, if it was the opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, was by no means that of himself ; that it appeared to him, there was a middle course, which it would be much more becoming to follow ; that as lie was not inclined to invest his Majesty with all the Royal dignity, under the unhappy circumstances in which lie was placed —so it would be uttterly repugnant to propriety, on the other hand, to strip him of every office of charac ter and dignity—[hear .9 —The Right Hon. Gentle man seemed to think that he had not discharged his duty, because he had not enquired of the Physicians whether his Majesty might recover more or less, so as to be restored to a certain portion of understand ing, without enjoying the full use of his faculties.-- But he would ask them, if this was a point for which it was impossible to provide from a general know ledge alone of such a situation as that of his Majesty ? Were they not aware, that up to last July, when his Majesty experienced an accession of the disorder, that.' he was In habits of personal intercourse with his fa - roily and with his servants ? For himself, he had before that period, more than one interview with his Majesty; and though it appeared to him evident that he was not then in a situation to resume the reins of Government, yet that in the ordinary intercourse of society, he was capable of reason ing, both with respect to past and future events. — He therefore could not see the necessity for in quiring of the Physicians the probability of the recurrence of such a situation, or agree, that because such inquiry had not been made, it was therefore necessary to provide for that recurrence.— Were they so unacquainted with the nature of in. sanity as not to know, that it was a very common casein that malady for the persons afflicted with it, not only to converse and act with propriety in many of the alfairs of life, but also to possess the power of enjoying the pleasures and comforts of life, as far as the malady would allow them to enjoy them. lie agreed, however, in thinking with the Right „Hon. Gentleman, that such a state would be a heavy calamity to his Majesty; but why should they be accessary to render that calamity, which was already great, still greater? Ou thii subject, however, he would not enter further at present. He merely rose ,for the purpose of stating, that the delay required would more . appropsiately take place when the Bill came to be presented, and to lie on the table. Mr. POSTSONBY'confessed the more he. content. plated tae plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman, the less he understood it, though he hoped that in time ise should be enabled to understand it. lie had said nothing of the feeling of persoual comfort of his Majesty, lnd had merely opposed an increase of es pence on the Right Ilonourabje Gentleman's owa motion, and not on the evidence of the Physicians. The Right Honourable Gentleman had asked if they would increase the sad calamity of his Majesty?— Certainly not ; but would not the Prince Regent be in possession of the Civil List? And it it was 'mini. fest that the comforts of his Majesty's situation could in any way be promoted, did any man doubt that his Royal h ness would provide for them, or that Parliament would refuse to provide for them ? This was casting a doubt respecting the future intentions of the Regent, more calumnious, in his opinion, than any thing which had occurred in the discussions• of last year. Before he sat down, he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman a question on the subject of the 100,00 al. which had before escaped him. DA his Royal Highness agree to renounce his claim as Duke of Cornwall, and was this sum given in consi deration of that circumstance? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said he had nothing to propose to the House on that subject.--W itca it had formerly come before the House, he had then given it ai his opinion, that the claim of his Roc•al Highness was without any foun dati4n, encl lie had seen nothing since that time to render any alteration in his opinion necessary. lie had, however, no difficulty in stating, that as far a; it was possible to judge from looking back to the bates of that period, it was his opinion that his Royal Iffighneis had then agreed . to relinquish his claim. _ _ _ Mr. PONSONBY said he merely asked the ques tion for the information of the House. Mr. VERNEY observed, with respect to the 100,0001. it was needless to say any thing at present; but if it could afterwards be shewn that this was ne cessary to defray the expence cast on his Royal Mgt!. ness last year, and the splendour necessary to be dis played in assuming the situation which he was about to undertake, he, for ene, should not have the smallest objection to agree to it. He wished to say a few words on the plan submitted to them that night, by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, because of the complete dilemma in which he had been placed by him ; for it was necessary, before consenting to vote for this plan, at least to understand it, and this he, for one, was utterly unable to do. It appeared, however, that they were asked a sum of money for the establishment of a second Court. His Majesty was still, it would appear, to be considered as the Sovereign of the Country, and the Regent merely substituted for the purpose of carrying on the func tions of the Executive. He, for one, would not deny that any portion of splendour belonged to time man to whom the name of King belonged. No man was ever more belovec! than George the Third was by the people of this country, and had the Right lion. Gentleman so called upon them, he would have been the first to testify the affection which he par took, in common with every one of his fellow sub jects; but still he must look to the splendour of the Executive Power, and take care that no other Court whatever came into contact with it. By this new constitution of things, however, the Queen, it seems, on b"half of his Majesty, was to have one Court, and the Prince Regent another Court. Was that necessary? Sure he was that it was dangerous. But could the Right Hon. Gentleman make out its necessity ? With respect to his Majesty, he would never to the latest moment of his life forget that he was his King : but still it was necessary for the Right Hon. Gentleman to satisfy the country that the new splendour with which he proposes to invest her Ma., jesty's Court was at all necessary for the comfort of his Majesty. When he examined the list of those who were to constitute the Queen's Court, it was impossible not to smile when he observed the number • of- Officers proposed—the Master of the Robes, Grooms of the Stole, Lords of State, Equerries, &c. And in order to take care of the private pro perty of his Majesty, three new Officers with salaries were thought fit to be created, a business with which Parliament could certainly have nothing to do. The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEW ER here observed, that these salaries were to be defrayed out of the private property of his Majesty, and not out of the public money. Mr. Ti ERNEY observed, he had nothing at all to do with that money—[ Hear, hear !] But could any man be so blind as not to see the drift of the Right Hoti. Gentleman, in his disposal of all this influ ence?—[Hear, hear I] From the manner in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had, on the opening of his speech that night, spoken of the Regency Bill, it almost looked as if he wished to make a bargain about the taking off the Restrictions. He must boa a separate Court, with her Majesty at the head 01 it. His Majesty's unfortunate condition had now lasted upwards of fifteen months, and since last July. it appears, from the evidence of the Physicians, that the Restrictions imposed on the Prince Regent were altogether unnecessary. The Right Honour able Gentleman had allowed, when he enforced the Restrictions, that they were, pro tanto, an infringe ment on the Executive Power; but that they were rendered necessary, in order that no impediment might be thrown in the way of his Majesty's recovery, and that he would only name one year, in order that Par liament might, at the end of that period, be enabled as soon as possible to remove them. But the Physicians had told them that no hopes of that recovery bad ex R e !,