The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-01-18 00:00:00

Pc sip th a C BC al d it 4 tr I r • A , ~. _:. ~~ Mr. TIERNEY wished here to take notice of a shameful waste of the public money in printing Re torts, which were sometimes done on a very expen ive scale, with large engravings. This might make :hem very acceptable to libraries, but was certainly . very unwarrantable application of the public mo- Bey. The SPEAKER was obliged to the Right Hon. Gent. for drawing the attention of the House-to this ;abject. In a report from Portpatrick, which was dluded to by the Right Hon. Gent. the printing and lrawings were certainly on a very unwarrantable scale, and he believed the Chairman of that Com mittee was imposed on with respect to it. He had given orders that nothing larger than a journal sheet should be printed, without communicating it to him. —He then went into a number of explanations with respect to some engravings and drawings from Ire land, some of which had been sent back, and re turned with a declaration, that if the subject was wished to be understood, the scale could not be fur ther reduced. After a few words from Mr. Tierney and Mr.' Fitzgerald, the Resolution was put and carried. A number of other small sums were voted in the Committee; hut they were read so low and so ra pidly, that they were utterly inaudible in the Gal lery. Mr. WHITBREAD, though the proper opportu nity was gone by, wished to learn the circumstances which occasioned so great a loss of our shipping in the North Seas. Mr. YOItKE, evidently much affected, replied, that with regard to the loss incurred it was cer tainly but too true. The ships and the stores were of little consequence, but the number of gallant lives destroyed by that unfortunate accident was import ant indeed.—[ Hear, hear !]—With regard to the circumstances by which we had sustained so great a loss, they were entirely owing to those accidents of wind and weather which it was impossible to foresee and to provide against. The ship Hero, the loss of which we had also to lament, was cast away, owing, he believed, among other causes, toa fault in the na- 1 , vigation, and not making allowance for the current which prevailed in those seas. It was a matter that deserved consideration, in order to correct the error in the tetvi,gation in the North Seas, and by that means to provide against such occurrence hereafter. With regard to the ships alluded to in the Hon. Gent.'s question, he could state, that orders were is sued from the Admiralty, directing that no ships should remain in the North Seas after the Let of November. The weather, however, prevented the convoy from arriving until the 17th of that month. Its-the storm one of the vessels run foul of the other, Which by the shock lost its rudder. After the De fence was sunk, the St. George was driven ashore, but expectations were entertained of her weathering out the storm, in so much so that the Admiral did not shift his flag, as he might have done. Unfortunately, however, those expectations were not realized. As to the detention of the convoy, it was owing entirely to the state of the weather ; and so far was the Ad miralty from being to blame, that many applications were made for convoys to the Baltic, at a later pe riod, and were refused. Mr. WHITBR EAD expressed himself perfectly sa.isfied with what had been just stated. 'Col. HUTCHINSON inquired whether it was the intention of Ministers to make any alteratiors in the establishment of the Royal Marines, so as to an swer the reasonable expectations of that most useful corps. If not, he should, on a future day, submit a motion on the subject to the House. Mr. YORKE replied, that he should have an other and a better opportunity of entering into the subject, he did not now think it necessary to give any direct answer. The Reporrwas then brought up, and it was or dered that it be received to-morrow. STATE OF THE METROPOLIS. Mr. RYDER said, that in rising to move for an inquiry into the state of the nightly watch, he did not feel it necessary to enter at any great length into the reasons by which he was induced to bring forward such a motion. At the same time, he felt himself justified in stating, that if the expediency of the mea, sure rested upon the late horrible murders alone, by which two whole families were completely extermi nated, the atrocity of those crimes would in them selves afford a sufficient ground. It was true that no system of police could prevent the commission of such murders, while there were persons vile and abandoned enough to commit them, under such circumstances of dexterous depravity ; but as a better regulation of the nightly watch must have a tendency to diminish the chances, it was right that it should be resorted to. Those Gentleme►► who had seen other coun tries, and attended to their internal situation and go vernment, must know that even in places whore the peace was committed to the care of an armed police, a . police furnished with all those powers, with which under a despotism it was possible to furnish it, with out any regard to the prejudices of the people ; they must know that even in such places, and under such I I regulations, atrocities such as those were committed' . almost nightly, without exciting any of those deep impressions under which the mind of this country at present suffered ; and it might be regarded as a proof, that few acts of the kind were committed here, when they looked to the consternation excited in the present instance. It certainly was true that for the last three or four months, offences, though not alto gether of so horrid a description, were multiplied beyond the experience of former years ; and though ;tinny accounts had got into the public prints which were true, many also were exaggerated, and many false. lie knew not whether the Gentlemen around him were acquainted with the law by which the nightly' watch was regulated. In former times each parish provided for itself, and it was not until 1774, that Parliament interfered, and passed an Act which applied only to 15 of the most populous parishes.— By that Act, Directors and Trustees were appointed, ender whose coutroul, the watch, the patrole, and the beadles, were all placed, and who were entrust el also with the power of assessing the rates upon each parish. It was no wonder that this Act should be found insufficient at the present nay, when they ,considered the enormous increase of the metropolis. He should not trouble the House by attempt ing to e?umerate the various instances in which the provisidns of this Act were evaded and 'neg ected : it would be sufficient to mention one. The I. • IEI • .1 • • • • r ttf: 4 . • j A i s • 4 • it • Till?, STATESMAN. Act .required that the trustees should appoint none but able-bodied men, and he would leave to their own observation to decide how far this was complied with. He knew that there were many instances in which those who were too old to earn their bread, were appointed to the situations-of watchmen, in order to prevent their becoming a burden to the parish. These were not the men to secure the lives and properties of the inhabitants. If the House agreed with him in the appoketnkent of the Committee for which he should move, it would be for that Com mittee not only to consider the Act of Parliament, but also the variety of local Acts upon the same It would be for them to decide whethe r it was sub ject.advisable to alter the system entirely, or whether it would be sufficient to enforce the present Act with out any innovation. It would be for them to consi der what course they would recommend, and there fore it was quite unnecessary, indeed it would be un becoming in him, to anticipate that by proposing any arrangement of his own. As far as he had thought upon the subject, he had no objection to state generally, that he rather inclined to the notion of enforcing the present system by adequate provisions, than of hav ing recourse to any new Act. It was material, he thought, for him to state, that when the Legisla ture found it necessary to turn their attention to this subject, they did so in consequence of the variety of local Acts applicable to each parish, and producing a confusion which it was of the utmost consequence Ite remedy : for instance, the parish of Pancras was I divided into seven districts, each of which had its lown local Acts. The interests of the parties thus created, should be discussed and reconciled as well las possible with the new arrangement; and this was I one of the principal reasons which ind u c ed him to, prefer the appointment of a Committee, to any other mode of proceeding. The House had adopted the same course in the year 1774, and it was his inter!, tion, in the present case, to propose those Gentle-' men to be on the Committee, who were most inter ested, as well as most likely to be acquainted with the nature of the different interests that would be affected by the change. lie should therefore move, if the house agreed to the appointment of the Com mittee, that the Members for London, Westminster, Middlesex, and Surrey, should be members of the same. lie concluded with moving that a Select Committee should be appointed for the purpose of considering the state of the nightly watch in the me i tropolis. I Sir S. ROMILLY said he was surprised at the mo- I tion of his Right Hon. Friend. No one, he was persuaded, who was acquainted with what had I passed, and with the alarm and terror which had spread through the metropolis, but must have ex pected that some more extensive measure would have been resorted to than that now under consideration. He should think, that a Committee appointed upon such an occasion, would find it necessary to in- I quire, not only into the state of the nightly watch, but into the causes of the increase of felonies and crimes ; and he was sure, that a comprehensive view of this kind, would be more calculated to produce the desired effect, than the contracted course re commended. He had no other means than were common to every body of informing himself upon the different facts-ronwerted with this question; but it was evident, that crimes had greatly increased in number and atrocity. It appeared from the yearly returns, that there was a gradual increase in this re spect, for the last five or six years. Ile (lid not ad vert to the committals at Quarter Sessions, but to the whole number of those at the Old Bailey, and lie was sure the House would be surprised at their extent. In Ibo 6, 899 persons were convicted at the Old Bailey. In 1807, 1017. In 1808, 1110. In 1809, 1314. In 1810, 1.1'24 ; so that in the last five years, the number of committals had increased from 899 to 1421; and this in a state of war. It was certain that fewer offences were committed in time of war than in time of peace; for many of those bold and daring characters were em barked in the service of their country, and rendered useful against her enemies, instead of becoming dan gerous at home. Among all the calamities that at tended a state of war, there was still one advantage to be derived from it, that it afforded greater domes tic security in the way he had already described. — But in the case of this country of late, so far from being able to calculate on this solitary advantage, we beheld crimes increasing, and domestic security becoming more precarious. The country should know what was the cause of this. He would state to the House some of the causes which appeared na tural to him, for the purpose of chewing the necessity of a more extensive measure. He thought it must appear that the system of punishment, so long, and (without offence to any individual) he would say, so obstinately persevered in, had in themselves the ef fect of encouraging the number of crimes. He disl not allude here to the frequency of capital punish meats, but to the punishments less than death, and above all, to promiscuous imprisonments. In come , quence of that practice, it was known, that boys, convicted of offences, were put into the same prisons with hardened wretches ; from thence they could de rive nothing but the basest examples. Many were , condemned to the hulks, where there were instances ' of the most atrocious crimes 7 where they mingled withl !the worst of criminals, and from thence, after a cer- 1 tain period, they were dismissed ) without any sort of provision, leaving those colleges of infamy s to exer ace upon society those arts and practices in which they were instructed. He believed, taking his au thority undoubtedly from the common source of in- formation, that many persons were lately discharged from the hulks, and he thought that the great atro cities lately committed, might in part be ascribed to that cause ; some of them, it was generally understood, were released in consequence of the expiration of the term of their imprisonment; others had obtained their release by improper means, and others had escaped. When those wretches were discharged without any provision being made for them, without any means of improvement being afforded, without even the advantage of re ligious instruction, without trades, and without character, they must proceed to the perpetration of crimes. One would think that what had passed for a considerable time in this country, ought to haveshown the necessity of a change of system. It was unne cessary now to enlarge upon a subject of which no tice had been already given, but be believed it.would be found, that the system of police established, - tended materially to increase the commission of •rimes. If the House had an objection to go into the more large inquiry, it certainly would he neces sary to consider the state of the police. He object ed to the principle of giving rewards to the Police for the detection of offenders of a certain descrip tion ; for when he considered that the prevention of crimes depended on the Police alone, that they alone knew what persons were liable to suspicion, he must infer, that the offering of rewards must produce the greatest evil, by making it their interest to permit crimes of that atrocious description, for the detec tion of which rewards were given. By the 4th and sth of William and Mary, and the 7th of queen Anne, 401. was offered for the detection of high •way robbery. He did not wish to speak disrespect fully of a useful body of men, but unless they acted upon refined moral principles', their inclination must be to ,permit the act to take place, that they might be entitled to the recompence. He was in formed that no man had any chance of obtaining the property he had lost, until he offered a reward for its recovery. It resembled a practice adopted in some offices of giving expedition money, which was always productive of delay, for delay must have been the practice of the office, to make it worth while to pay the Police Officers for dispatch. The mischief of this was, that when a man lost property, he must be satisfied to lose more, in order to quicken the ministers of justice. A Bill had been introduced into that House in the year 1785, containing some good provisions, and some objectionable.—Among others, it proposed the abolishing of rewards altogether ; but whether rewards ought to be abolished altogether or not ) Police Officers ought not to get them. The utility of rewards consisted in their tendency to ob tain information from accessories after the fact, but the Police Officers were not in this situation when they discharged their duty. He understood that when persons went to the Police Offices and de scribed an individual by whom they were robbed, it was no uncommon thing to find that the Officers knew hint immediately, that they knew his nanr, and the houses he frequented. He was not cer tain whether those circumstances were facts, but they were generally believe.l, and he rather thought were well founded. It was right to institute in quiry, when they considered the state of the metro polis, when they considered the great expence of the Police, and the vote of that day, and when, in ad dition to this, they reflected that crimes had accumu lated, that acts were committed, which shook the public security, and the tranquillity of private fami lies.: when they reflected that it was due from every Government to its subjects, to guard their property and their persons, they must see the necessity of takiag an enlarged and comprehensive view. But his Right lion. Friend had said, that such crimes as we htd lately heard of, were frequently committed in otter countries. lie would ask where those coins tries were ? He had never heard or read of such. — As to Paris, while he resided there, he had never heard of such atrocities ; nor did he know to what climate his Right Honourable Friend could ! refer him for a consolatory comparison in this respect. He knew of none where crimes were committed with such insolence and presumption as here. Ills Right Honourable Friend had spoken ; of nightly watch, but where was the daily watch ? —Did they not hear continually of robberies con. stantly committed in the day time, and where was the remedy for this ? Was it in regulating the nightly watch ? If the country was left in such a situation, the worst consequences were to be appre hended. They should inquire not only into the state of the watch, but into the state of the police, and the state of crimes. A number of causes would be found to concur in multiplying the number of the last. The tolerating of improper houses, suffering the streets to be infested, as they sometimes were, and among others, he could not help enumerating the continu ance of Lotteries. Plow the supply of 500,0001. which he believed was the only produce of this per uicious measure, could be supposed to justify its continuance, he was unable to conjecture ; but without wishing to introduce politics into sack a subject as this, he must observe, that in • his opinion it was not what it produced, but the number of Com missiotterships which it supported, that tended to protract its existence. Mr. W. t.INIITII said, that he could not refrain ' from making a few observations on the present im portant subject, although he could not hope to add any weight to the arguments so ably urged by his lion. and Learned Friend. He could not help regret ing, however, that his lion. and Learned Friend had sat down, without proposing an Amendment, for the purpose of extending the objects to which the Committee were to direct the attention, and he trusted that such an amendment would yet be pro posed. There were one or two circumstances which proved the absolute necessity of such an extension of object. In the first place, if the House attended to the nature of those most horrible and barbarous outrages which for two months had kept the metro polis in a perpetual alarm, and more particularly the atrocious murder of Mr. Mart's family (the authors of which had never yet been discovered), it would be evident, that had the nightly watch of the metropolis been in the best possible state, those out rages and that murder could not have been prevented. They originated in a set of villains about the town, whose existence was not imputable to any deficiency in the nightly watch. In the second place, if the nightly watch could operate upon them, of what na ture would be that operation ? Unless some change could be produced in *the disposition of those vil lains, the only effect that could, by possibility, be occasioned would be to drive them out of the metropolis into the environs. The surrounding villages would be deluged with- depredators, against whom they would have no protection. He con fessed that he had long been extremely' scandalised (if he might use that term) by the number of ac counts which had reached him of the familiarity that existed between the officers of the police and the disturbers of the public peace. — This familiar intercourse was a matter of general notoriety, and surely it must, in a variety of ways, have a most deteriorating effect on the public morals. It must operate on the thieves themselves, who could not consider themselves so sufficiently as they might, the objects of detestation, when they knew they could sit and enjoy themselves in their favourite pub lic-houses until some one should be called out whose . measure of guilt was full. It must also operate o n the officers of the police, who could not possibly en tertain the proper feeling with which criminals ought to be regarded by them, while they continued to •it down at the same table with them, and to drink with them as associates until the very moment when they pounced upon their prey. If he gave to this state ' ment too high a colouring (which he really believed he did not), if the fact were even incomparably less strong, it would nevertheless deserve animadversion and demand correction. Ile was, however, far fr om wishing that the subject of the nightly watch should be omitted from the consideration of the Commit tee. lie thought it extremely deserving of notice, andhe was persuadA, that if the nightly watch were put on a better footing, much good would insult. ob- jection, 'therefore, to the motion was not, that it was wrong, but that it stopped incomparably &tort of the object which it was desirable to attain. It was well known, that in one parish of the Metropolis, inha bited principally by the lower classes, great good . . , had hem aected. By parochial exertions tending to improve the nightly watch, the parish of Christ's Church, Spitalfields, instead of the scene of riot, uproar, and crime, which it formerly presented, had become almost proverbial for its extreme good ord and regularity. If similar regulations were ad-ptel at the West End of the town, a great deal would certainly be done towards providing for the safety and comfort of all, and towards improving the mo rality of the lower classes. Muck praise was in his opinion doe to the worthy and respectable indivi duals who had taken this matter in hand and he should be very happy to hear that a similar public spirit pervaded the whole metropolis. He concluded by repeating his entire approbation of every thing that had been said by his lion. and Learnei Friend, and his hope that an amendment would be intro duced to the motion, extending the power of the Committee to an inquiry into the State of the Police ) as well as of the Nightly Watch. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not doubt, that under all the circumstances of the case, the House would have no hesi ;eion to agree to the motion of his Right lion. Friend ; for having paid every attention to the arguments of the too lion. Members who had spoken on the op posite side, he found that those arguments were directed not against the proposit t against is limited nature. It must, however, be considered, that the motion of his lion. Friend related to a sub ject which could not be passed over in a morning or two, and which therefore would not bear to be loaded with all the theoretical coes:deettions which his Hon. and Learned Friend on the opposite side had suggested. Indeed, the subject to which the Committee would have to direct their especial atten tion, was one calculated to engage it very seriously. Their object would be to provide a practical remedy for a practical evil. His Hon. and Learned Friend might cei tainly differ from his Right lion. Friend, with respect to the value of the remedy, but he was sure that the Hon. Gentleman could not do so, after having enlarged so much oe the advantages in a particular district, resulting from the adoption of measures similar to those recommended by his Hun. Friend. For what was the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend, but that a Committee of the House of Commons should consider the propriety of enforcing in all the parishes of the metropolis, regulations, front which so much good had resulted in the parish de scribed by the Hon. Gent.? Certainly there was one qualification of the Hon. Gent.'s opi 1l m on this sub ject which was extremely dishearten;nl. The exist in; evil was great, and was felt locally; "but," said the lion. Gentleman, " take care how you apply a re medy, for if you cure the evil in the metropolis, you will drive it out in the neighbourhood." Now, for his part, he thought it advisable to cure the evil, if pos sible, where it (lid exist. It uasto b lamented if it should go elsewhere, but if so, with r it should be followed, and there crushed too. The lion. Gentle man in the same breath in which he described the happy influence which the regulations in Spitalfields had there occasioned, deprecated the adoption of the regulations proposed by his Right Hon. Friend, lest, although advantageous to themselves, they might prove inconvenient to the neighbouring parishes. — The fact was, that the question before the House in volved the interests, not of the metropolis alone, but of all the adjacent parts. Such an extensive sub ject was calculated to produce much discussion, and therefore it was probable that the inquiry would nut be terminated so soon as was anticipated by his Ho nourable and Learned Friend. His Honourable and Learned Friend had touched on the nature of punish ments, and had ascribed a great part of the moral de pravity of the times to the particular mode of con finement to which prisoners were subjected ; but he apprehended this was an inquiry which his Honourable and Learned Fliend did not wish should be referred to the Committee now proposed. It certainly was not desirable to engraft the business of a Committee on Penitentiary Houses, upon the business of a Com mittee appointed for another purpose. There had al ready been a Committee on that subject ; a report had been made by it, and notice given of a measure to be proposed arising out of that report. Whether it might or might not be expedient to revive the Com mittee to which he tad alluded, was a question by itself ; but he was persuaded that the House would not accelerate the acquisition of the benefits'so much needed at the present moment, by complicating the objects to which the attention of the Committee moved for by his Right lion. Friend was to be direct ed. His lion. and Learned Friend had asked, wee dier it was right to continue the practice of grante,: high rewards for the apprehension of culprits 01 a certain class? This was a grave subject for delibe rate discussion. It ought not to be lightly con cluded that these rewards were disserviceable. It might hi! that they were so : but this was by no means coronn It might be true that the strength of the stimulus which high rewards offered on the detection of great offenders, occasioned operating inversely on the de• tection of petty offenders. It might, however, be true, that instead of abolishing rewards altogether. it would be wise to extend them to the detection t f petty offences, in order that petty offenders might le stopped in their career, and not allowed to proceid to the commission of enormous crimes. On all these subjects a variety of opinions must naturally exist; l e t he could by nte means allow that the Committee pee posed by his Right Honourable Friend could be well calculated to discuss those opinions es one ye- •