The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-04-18 00:00:00

D, ~i M ~. 111. E STATESMAN. be found amongst the Engli.h, where were Ministers to he found I Such being the circumstances under which the nation now appkered, it became highly proper to prepare and present an Address, 'display ing the public mind, in a moderate and determined , s one , to his Royal Hightsets the Prince Regent.— ) n that Petition, of which he now held a copy in Isis hand, would be shown, that no measures of It popular stature had bean adopted by the Admini stration to ameliorate the situation Of the people, that they continued to witness the same profoseness of the lic money—the same system of corrup tion fling, and flourishing, manufacturing du • dured to poverty r —that they were of opinion all,theae were attributable to the measures of Ali. uist,ere, and nothing' ss:titak radii* reform cpuld acchisplishthe salve' lof the count*. Therefore they loyally prayed, t t 1ttr . 11,0 1 41 ifightre i f would l a be graciously pleased o • tik‘ tnTss‘sitlii pease Miuis ter s, and call in such persons to Abe Admittistration, as would lend their honest abilitiei to aecompliih a thorough Parliamentary Reform, so that prosperitt night re-appear on our tahnwted _shores, and the glory of our nation be ago the outline of the Addresamtalklt • kliceßared 1 hejeptgot, And he would therefore rove.tw We — " Tlist an humble and loyal Address i -..•• „. to Me listyel Highness the Regent, pray' • , dress of Carievouces." . .2.; • M r..llll.oNea I. t: seconded tbrstiotiois t 'The questbse now was, whether the Comma" tCounell it the City. of Loudon should come forward . ii i it,h a flattering Aided's, bowing and scrapiug like 4eip wke wisfied to glikaCourt fasour • or should go up with a-MOH lion, in stick theyleclated their re ipbtituentii, in a manly; bat at the tame tint., avodefataitetto. Itilr.llss,asa thought the great *Nest of the wisato turn out the present Ministers ; but be would ho bald to say, that the Prince, by retaining, his Ministers, had acted with the greatest magnani. enity ; and he (Mr. H.) .lid not know where they were to get better. Tiiey had successfully kept Bo raparte at bay ; they had kept that great devil from over-running IN [laugh] ; ittid the country was in that happy state inwhich we saw it. [Orksof &at:, hear!) True, the calamities of war were felt, .but s cooed all the teleuts of the country united prevent' the pressure of war? The enemy would be best resisted by union and harmony among ourselves; and hkdid not think the proposed Address had that tendensf. Mr. JACKS did not deny that the country was in e . state of embarrassment, arisiug from the check which bad been given to its commerce, and the defici ency of last harvest ; but the question was, whether it was wise to inflame the minds of the' people at the present moment, by agitating such matters as those contained in the present Address ?—The Wor. thy iilover began with several remarks, which were truly delightful to his mind, on the naval power and military renown which the nation had acquired ; and be concluded with recommending Reform, the usual panacea for all the evils which we suffered. On the subject of ,Reform, there were hardly two men who entertained ideas its common ; and as to corruption, he was stead, that as it ever bad existed it would still continue tg exist. He did not belies. that our manu factures were so much on the decline as had been re presented. He knew that in the West of England the clothing trade was in full employment ; a great deal of busineakeras also done at Birmingham, and the poor-ratet there were now 165., while , some years ago tberhad been las. in the pound. lie was in. formed, that signatures for petitions representing dis. tresses, bad been obtained in various partsof the ceeqtry at the rate of ss. per hundred. [Laugh.]— A great deal had been said of the gross embezzlement, of the public money of late years : no doubt, it was bad enough ; but from Sir J. Newport's motion, the other night, in the House of Commons, ,it appeared that the whole amount of the loss sustained by the country kr this way did not amount to more than 275,0001. during the last twelve years. He would • ask any merchant . extensively engaged in business, whether he might net sustain considerable losses from his servants, notwithstanding all the attention he' might pay to his private affairs ? The same observa. j tion applied in its utmost force to the revenue and expenditure of the nation. The ' charge of corruption was not more applicable at the pre sent than it other periods of our history. The Duke' of. Marlborough was convicted of having taken twoand a-half per cent. on the clothing and supplies of his whole army. Soon after the Revolu tion, the Duke of Leeds and several other Counsel lors were found to have taken bribes. If Gentlemen looked at the parliamentary transactions about the Orphans' Bill and the South-Sea Scheme, they would see scenes of peculation more disgraceful thaw an modern times. The lord .Chnncellor -Mace! in 17t6.; was convicted of having leinlettled the estates of •mitten, and fined 30,0001. Mr. Jacks then went on to declare, that it was a matter of in difference to him who were Ministers. Ile had oever asked a favour , of any of them. All he wanted was wen who would maintain the interests of the coun try ; and as-to the present Ministers, he heartily ap. proved of the great points of their foreign policy.— Ile liked also many of the Statesmen who belonged 1 to the Opposition, particularly those of them who I were not Frenchified, but retained the• old Whig 1 principles which were acted on at the Revolution.— When in power, however, they formed only- a sort of hodge-podge Administration, and were chief ly remarkable for having doubled the Income Tax. But of what use were strong resolutions on political topics, to the starving , manufacturers of Manchester ? They would only tendto blame and to irritate. The, enemy also laid hold of them, and converted them to his own objects ; for he had learned since he came into Court, that the Lord Mayor had a French newspaper in his pocket which contained all the'violent reside/4 tions adopted the other day by the Common HaR. Mr. Jacks again adverted to - the gloomy predictions/I which were made on the subject of corruption. Mr. Pulteney, about 80 years age, declared, that bribery and corruption had then reached such a height, that they must infallibly' destroy the Consti tution. Still, however, the - people enjoyed their liberties; and at no time wits the Constitotion more purely administered than now. The tendency to corruption, he feared, was rabid: in human its t n re, and the panacea of reform would net root *est: Why, then, distract the people by holding out the pre spect of hypothetical advantages which weld •0- .~ ~~ be realised f As to the distresses among the manufac turers, he believed the cause to be this :—This coun try, _till very lately, had manufactured for almost The whole' f tie Continent. For some years our manufacteres were carded to a most mamma ex tent, and when a sudden revulsiott took place, the workmen became peculiarity ildifllTo. But he be lined that manufactures were eves now carried on to as great an extent u they were fire or six years ago. No man in this country would advocate despot ism, but democracy was also to be deprecated. It was democracy, and the factions it produced, which, more than the arms of the Romans, produced the ruin of Carthage. It was the excess .of liberty at the begitming of the French Revolution which pro duced all the convulsions of the Continent. The, French Cotivention was a full, fair, and free repre sentation of the people; and yet they had paved the way for the despotism of Bonaparte, as the extremes to which the Long Parliament went, produced the 'despotisai to Cromwell. As a specimen of Crom won c l ove -fitment, he here read an order issued', rfiotn W itehall, by which every person was prohi., bited from publishing public news, oc . political dia . - ICtission, without the permission of the Protector and 'his Council. Ile cancluded with recommending har (4l and-union : 14 A house divided against itself "amid not stand." • Alderman C. Sinn conceived that the Gentlemen rwho had supported the motion had viewed only the ' dark side of the qaestioo. If any of his bearers would take the globe and Joys .tt round [a laugh], they would not find upon it if spot,avhere there was lit4e nuiVihr yetiitting ait if this country. If they •tonsirkitq4histirjr, el the country, they nuhtiet ii, Which EOglavrd was so completely-Wasters of thetas as it is now, or iu which .it possessed so slay colonies. lie hoped that all the friends of aide otid of the ConstitittiOn would stay in the Court until the -division, that it might fairly be seen on which side the majority of the Common Council wits. Mr. WeerlIMAN said, that he was very glad that he had gitien way to the worthy Alderman who had just favgured them wittrso luminous a speech. When he had at first heard the' exhortations to avoid per sonality from the Honourable Mover, he had Mt that personalities ought as much as possible to he avoided ; and he regretted much that he sometimes had been drawn into observations which might ap pear personal. He had often found, however, that it was impossible entirely to avoid personalities, is, asmuch as it was absolutely necessary to discuss the political conduct, in order to find out the principles, of those who spoke ou the other side. The worthy Alderman, however, appeared to be determined that ; the business of this day should not pass over without a something of thit sort.' it appeared to him that the worst sort of personality was imputing gene.- rally bad motives to all whO differed from the opi aion of the person who addressed them. Nothing could be a greater personal reflection, than for any man to say, " I am a. friend of order and of the Constitution, and let every other person who is so stay and vote with me." When the worthy Alder man took this tone, he thought that it was perfectly fair for him so far to discuss his political conduct, as to say, that from his first coming forward into public life, up to the time of the Petition on the Watch.- ren Expedition, that worthy Alderman had always gone as far as any other man in any motion for the reform of abuses and corruption, and against every ,improper expenditure of the public money. Indeed, 'le appeared among the most forward—he outstripped almost every ether man— Mr. Elmo* spoke to order, on the ground of this being a personal attack. Mr. WAITIINIAN resumed. He must absolute!, shut his mouth for ever, if it would never be allowed to him to canvass the political conduct of those who opposed him. He could not avoid expressing his surprise, that a worthy Alderman, who never, until , the Walcheren Expedition, abstained from repro bating abuses and corruption, should, from any cir cumstances attending that Expedition, be persuaded to go over into an opinion quite contrary to what he had formerly maintained. His worthy friend (Mr. (lain) had taken a very fair and manly view of the situation of this country, both internally and ester nally. Ile was very happy to coincide with him in the resources which this country possessed for sup porting its honour and its glory abroad, and, sorry to be obliged to coincide with him also in the view which he had taken of our internal situation, lie had heard a very long argument from a worthy Gen tleman (Mr. Jacks) with respect to the corruptions which prevailed in former periods of our history.— ' There was nothing new in this argument., as he had given it—with all the quotations which he had cited---upon a former• occasion. lie uudr stood that this epeeeb, with its Imitaties also been published by him. But what s. whole argument tend tot Was it that book., t there had 'en great corruption In former tiates,that ttherefore i;nglishmen of the present day were not to , be alarmed at any corruption that might now take • place. His argument was, that corruption had al ways existed, and yet, notwithstanding the predie tiees of the opposers of sack a system, the Consti tution still remained. lie aunt remar k, that until the last four or five years, that worthy Gentleman also went wafer:Cy with those who opposed corrup tion and abuses. lie must then ask, by what per version of intellect was it, that he had now become the advocate of corruption and abases I As to re form, the lion. Gent. went apes the old common place observation, that it was necessary first to pro duce a plan of reform upon which every one was agreed. This was not, however, thepracticeof nisters on other things of greet moment. If they wished to legislate away the independence of a whole country, or to raise the income tax, they never thought it neces sary to wait' until all the inhabitants of the island were agreed with them in opinion. The argument of that Gentlemen would go to this, that our Consti. tution'exists only in name, and is nothing its sub stance. If, heweeer, he chose to put the tinestion, why; amidst the ruin of so many nations, this epee - had -The tLe - s . . that if we had survived thageneral ruin-of States, it -was merely on account of the superiority of the Bri tisk Constitution.—(Hear, hear !]—The superiority of .onr Constitution consisted • in tide, that we had 'a Representation of the People, which other ea. lions had not ; and if our Representatives would but discharge their duty honettly and faithfully, they would form as efficient a check upon the Crown as the People could desire. This was what he con- ceived to be the real excellency of the British Constitution ; and our superiority over other nations principally depended upee what was left of this Con stitution. The Worthy Gent. (Mr. Jacks) had then asked, if our ! object "was to change the Ministers, who could we get to supply their places, or how was the public business to go on? He seemed to have no idea of any possible change of Ministers, but a trans ; fer of• power from five or six families whey now hare it, to five or six other families who have not. If I that was really a true statement of the case, and that we had no other alternative but between a Perceval . and'a Castlereagh on the one side, or a Grey and a ! Grenville upon the other, th.lp such a stale of things I . would be the very best argument which could be ad . duced in favour eta reform. If there were a reformed Parliament, then, f o r his part, -he should not feel afraid of either a Perceval or a Grenville. Any im proper measures of. the Executive would, in either' ' case, be control ed and checked by a reformed Parliament, really representing the people of this country. Ile had once, as a test of his political feeling, put this question to the worthy Gentle man (we believe Mr. Jacks was alluded to), whet' he was eery anxious to introduce into the I City of London an Institution for the promotion -ot /earning: he had 'esked' him why he was so anxious on this subject? 'Was not there as much 1 ! learning in the City of London now as. there I was an hundred years ago ? The reason that •he asked the cpiestion was, that if-no Man would be satisfied now, that the state of information and learn t ing should remain at the point it was an hundred years ago, bethought it would be very hard for them to assign a reason why our Constitution should re ; • ceive no improvement, andwhy every corruption and S abuse Which existedan hundred years ago should now 1* continued. [hear , hear!] He did not wish to make any question about the quantity of abuse and 1 corruption which might have existed an hundred ; years ago, but he thought it the duty of English. j men, now and at all times, to struggle against ex- I isting abuses and corruptions, and endeavour to pre serve their Constitution in its utmost purity. The worthy Gentleman had told them that Walpole, and many others, had formerly been expelled the House, and Pietished for corruption. Why that was the very thing he wanted now. [hear, hear!] He wished to see the avowed trafficker in seats in Parlia ment, the author of the Waicheren Expedition (Lord C.) also expelled the House, and punished for his • misdeeds. He wished to see great defaulters sent to the Tower, and punished for their crimes, in the sense manner as the worthy Gentleman had told them was formerly done on such occasions.--[Loud cries of hear, hear !]—Those times, however, appeared to have now gone by. At present, there appeared to he in the minds of the leaders in Parliament Something like a sympathy in favour of public defaulters. If one of them (alluding to Mr. Chinnery) contrived to make his escape, they immediately conceived it ne cessary to` give his son a place in the Treasury.— [Hear, hear!]--He firmly believed that this country was not trusting to the talents which might happen to reside in half a dozen families for its government.— He believed that there was sufficient talents and energy in the country, and even among men of the first rank and families in it, to carry on the admini stration of it without the system of corruption. If there was to be a change of Government to-morrow, and the new Ministers were equally the friends of corruption and abuses as the present Ministry, he would be very ready to join the next day in an ad dress praying for their removal. With respect to , thoie men now in office, his opinion had been sanc tioned by the resolutions of that Court, and by nu merous petitions from all parts of the country. The worthy Gentleman (Mr. Jacks) had contrasted the state of this country with France, and had expressed e great fear that we might suffer by an excess of liberty. His opinion respecting the troubles and calamitous events in' France always was, that they -were owing to the resistance made by those interested in abuses, to proper and salutary reforms, and to their unnecessarily and imprudently flying, from their country for the ptirpose of stirring up other nations and governments to war with France. When the troubles of Spain were alluded to, he should ask, whether any man believed, that if the people of that country had had the opportunity and the privilege of goinrup to the throne,. and address tllo6o1-• 4011 /1 tit Put lielti, .bins oil Counsellors (the. privilege which he now proposed to exercise), would ' those troubles and those calamities have ever taken place? [Loud cries of Hear, hear!] This right was thelast sitty, and the best privilege ,which re mained to. Englishmen. The Gentleman hail all pealed to the Members of that Court, iu their indi vidnal.capacity, whether they were not all of them plundered by their servants? In answer to this ap. peal, he would say, that if they were plundered, they would conceive it a kind and friendly ollice in any man that would come forward and show them where Ithey 'were plundered. This had happened not long' . ago to be his own case. He had been robbed to a considerable amount, and. upon a friend discovering. it, to him, he instituted such an enquiry, that the I person who plundered him confessed to having rob ; bed him to the amount of 3.501. He should there-. I fore auswer the personal appeal, by asking them indi, 'virtually, would they not feel themselves obliged to the mats who should point out to them where they werei robbed ? He was ready, then., to extend thisprivate co n sideratiOn to a puhjic one, and say, whether the Prince i Rzgetttor the SOsereigu shonld not feel it ratherau obli.. . gation than au insult, to paint out where his servants ;•abused his contideece, and were wallowing in wealth I on the money wrung from the distresses of his subjects. To pilot out to the Sovereign how his servants were wasting -*it. fr _ W~ try had alone Surelved - ?—The answer which he i Westing the national substance was the kindest and Throtur, who waslatety executea ,_. would give to such a question wets th at it was be- I meet friendly act that the dorporetion eoqid - do. the murder .of Carter and his dau g hter in 1791, th'_ cause we alone, of all other nations , hid • lost 144 1 TheY'had hew told that the Constitution had stilt a. nie d his g uilt, or even an y knowledge of the Partin of the pthriples of freedom. ilbesurMeet - of that i VAS _' ded'of vigour, It WlLl*Jkange sort of vigour to the last moment. - • ...1 . . •••• ' _ . _tala GitatleMan siestmed to, be, that the•gehptOle of th •e : *Opt, . _ . .which was barely sufficient to oppress the ---.•-••---..4-'''-T-"'" e - ------- -- Constitution afere l *4 ,and`would 'nit bite tieiAit !lisielpeo--40 coMmendaseleridesuit Parliament —irnd . i. 4.00211 Printed and Puidliblni Ift - Si :car 4 'v without thehelieircorruption, Norritepixistedde - Mrs leiselee taxes. . ile. to m g ibt and . kovreeei s .e. ' cein • .„ , 1,,,,„..: .s r trauma)/ oertes,,B7,, Ilithlowees• , . _ . .. In the solitary instance of the vote M'Mahon, any occasion, where it vigour enough to check the Executi Servants of the Crown. But even I Ministers were strong enough to ire tion, by creating another place for the place of that . which Parliament Lion. As to the argument, of times being times for reform, he referred signed isy thirty-six Peers, which of necessity were tbe proper times known, in point of fact, that ram tabled but in such times; for then the grievances so feeliugly j that there w; t l tl ie at agreed athi with lime we being redressed. So m e G ent l emet this lint t o h u a g t h t t t i on this question, call e d l ou dl y f or 1 would to ohe ! he would ask upon what principles.- Were they to unite in support of Lard Cece rra h and the trafffcing in seats of Parliament b... e -g -o I_ , ghi 11 Were they to unite in defence of public derl e ; If the Gentlemen despaired of persuadirm th u e ' r ' t mass of the people to unite with them on such `7il ciplee, the shortest way to become an united pe o ple,li was for them to come over and join the great hotiv of the people in their pra y er for a refetreation o'f abuses. If that were done, all an:mt:Eitics would be at an end. If Gentlemen talked of the ri •se of our trade immediately pier the InCoon 1 Older' • . 1 , ba i should say, that a great part f . I• o tus appte n t rise arose from Goverummit deluding.the coup ry with holding out the advantages of a trade with South America ? • Kg - had himself log 10,0Wl. of ifs pro pert), by embitrkjul In 'the . hdOei'no held On! ; an d I the Court could not forget 'that in the I t is a year there were abouti3ObOankruptcie s , among which were many men who had figured among the first merchants of the metropolis. lt would be a cur ' . ous thing to ask the 'assignees of many of those bankrupts, how much money tad been paid as property tax, by men whose *profits wire aa. i thing. lie himself had been assignee to a bankrupt, i where the creditors could not get sixpence i n t h e pound, but where nothing could be got back of money paid as a tax !von income which dal not exist. He thought that this income tax, with the power of inspecting every man's books, was suffi , dent to cut down the ancient English spirit. The 1 GOvernment ought not to say that the people o f England could bear taxes to any amount, but that they could not bear any ameliorations. They should i not say that the people could bear all manner of in. i sults,—the embezzlement of the national property —the conferring places, pensions, and sinecures on 1 the most unworthy objects; but that'they could not Ibear any reform. He knew many Liverymen who I were afrai d to put their names to any ! requisition, j for fear that they should be marked by the tax-ga therers. What a degrading situation was this for the inhabitants of the first city in the world! If the people had a reformed and honest House of Com% mons, he was convinced that all their apprehensions would be at an end ; and that they would willingly 1 part with every; thing, even with their *existence, if necessary, to sustain the interests and honour of their country. After dwelling for some time on ; some of the topics which he had urged at the Corn. men Ran, he concluded by sating, that if the peo -1 pie would but act fairly and honestly themselves, they would have nothing to fear from any Minister ; t but if they suffered themselves to be the degraded tools of' any Administration, and would not venture 1 to carry up to - the Throne any addresses but what I were adulatory, then their cause teas hopeless, and I they must be considered a nation prerared for I , slavery. Mr. S. Dixow was against the motion, and de fended the conduct of those gentlemen who had i abandoned the politics of the Jfier side, on the ground, that the sooner-a man who discovered. his error leaves his former associates, the wiser he must 2 PPea • r He did not wonder at the number of bank ruptcies' if many merchants, like the gentleman ee -1 posite, had sent enormous ventures to South America without knowing the state of the market. Note eh stand the present moderate style, he knew the inten tions of the party, from sentiments delivered in ono :her place, and he should vote against the motion. Mr. Ikon's, in au eloquent speech, opposed the motion. Mr. FATELL supported it. Sir WILLIAM Cuwrns saw nothing in the conduct of' Miuisters which could warrant his withdrawing the support he had hitherto given them, and would give his most hearty vote against the motion. Mr. ATCHESON spoke on the sama.side, as did also Sir C. Pince and Sir J. Suaw. l . After a protracted debate, in. ' w hich Al. ermen COMAE and WOOD, Messrs. G. Etioseare!,, WYK-, and W.oxiii.c took part, the C 4 eert- eh • 'ended, ~hew there appea'red— ror the Motion - - • 98 Against it - - - 93 Majority for the Mafiosi 6 A Committee, consisting of the Aldermen pre. sent, with a Commoner from each Ward, was im mediately appointed to prepare an Address; a nd having returned with a draft of the sa me—it read and agreed to, and ordered to be presented to 6 _ his Hoye! Highness the Prince Regen t b y the w h o l e Court. The Sheriffs, attended by the Itemendwa h. cer s were then directed to. wait upon his Roy al Hig , ness to know when he would be ple a sed to rec c l o $ the same. . Mr. Irving, who it . hasinen 'stated fought and o 9 'wounded in a duel on Ilagshot.heath a few days disco, with a person unknown, died on Saturday last a ball having been caraited from the lower part of - the chest.' , A Jury sat on the body, and delivered a verdict bf Murder, against some person or persool utiknown. Wednesdly morning, between the hours of four and five, a fire broke out in Conduit-court, Log' acre, leading to Hart-street , which burnt very tit' ly for some:time, consumed two houses , and darn a• ged two more. thromxr, who was lately executed in Suffolk for Carter and hi' respecting Clone it appeared to have 3tive, or rather tl.e rl in this rag ~ the nsult the whole tie- 1r this favourite, in nt would not sane.. Ines of trouble not rre4 to a Protest, stated, that time a for reform. It was rms were never of le people spoke their /ma chance of their' who had spoken )r union, and said, an united peoplr, Id be deoiroble ; b ut 'a we wore to unite r 1'.." ••