The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-02-07 00:00:00

r Friend. His Hun. Fri. n I ha,l said he thought it a matter of importance; he for his own tart con. failed, ho did nut think it was. This would Ire. slimily be the case. The importance of the war b el never weighed sufficiently with his lion. Friend to bring him to the Rouse in the various questions concerning it, though this Standing Order had produced that effect. /Lis Hon. Friend had et ways been an advocatefor the liberty of the Press., Ect(Mr. Windham) ware the same, but on other rounds; and what htkt been said by his Huai riend on the present owstion, seemed to him to be rather the matter of a threat than an aroonent. To allude to the enforcement of all other Standing Order.: was a threat, and nut an argument. This Standing Order had obtained and been submitted to fur a century, amino inconvenience had been fn . end in it till within the last 30 years:. His lion. Friend seemed to consider the right of admission or strangers into thegallery as a part of the Con. atitaiun ; whereas, ou. the contrary, it had been granted as a mere matter.of favour. HO af/00W UM ask, how mach the country had gained in its slabs since that practico had obtained. Ile could net say In what respect the country had gained soy thing. Nat times might, be contrasted with the present; bel t still, from the daily manner in wltielt the debates were published, he wanted to know, in tiling way he wee so state the advantages accruing to thp cuootry.. What ma, the value to t i • te Constituents of kue*hsg what was passing in Ott !lime? Supposiugthey should never knee, was only thedifkraneu between a Representa. • Governvnentand a Democracy. Till within the last 20 ur 30 years, it not only was not practised ne now, but it WU not even pemitted to publish the &bates in that 110 Wt!. So lately as the time of Dr. Johnson, the debates were never publish. ell, but under.idltlovs names. Ile was one of those who liked the Constitution as it was; he did not lake it a• it is. If this had been tole rated, it was DO reason that it should, on all oc. cone's, be continued ; and that persons should , taalte a trade of n hat they obtain from the ertilcriev, among whom were to be found men of ad descriptions---bankrupts, luttery.office keep. ers, footinee, and. decayed tradesmen. lie had heard these ,Peup.rietoes of Papers had talked of ties liaiiistiee of eltipe,clours. • This was taking up the subject as if the admission of strangers into,the • was a privilege ; hut it was no such thing ; and though be might pea haps think it useful, after biasing su long pr‘rsiletl, he did not allow it to be 4 privilege. Were that the case, we should i.istie into a Stahl of democracy—a state like that air Min:its. He did, not, think accounts in the Patly Papers were so desisatble as many others did. 'flute had lately reviled Government so far as to assert, that sumo or their contemporaries were in the pay of Geeernment. What did this prove? Nut tke vgine or actual intportanco of Papers bo it clearly shooed that •if Government could have them in their pay, then Papers were liable to by het fur : hire.—to be bought and sold—and the pies., a Which has beets thought in this country the ltafiatime of its liberty, was always .ta ha p4rehiGetl.by the highest bitkler.. He did not wish to establish seek a powqt kb the press, as to eatablel tete 4 1 1 1 30 3 1 ikadiatnent, lit did nut know any of the,Coptlactors of the press; but he ender. at,Ood . sitern to be a set of men who would 'give • in to the corruPt misrepresentation of opposite sacs and he tear, then:lure, determined nut to lent his hand to abrogate an Order which wga Antoh: to correct an abuse. .He now saw the it Jed - to consequences of a most 'nisi. eativitit tendency--uu less than to Miange the dialog of a Representative Government into thit of a Denim: mg; and led erectly to that despotism • which had so Lately desolated other nstrios. Ile did not like to. part with a Stand. Order, which, though it might have run to wouW .nut in former times have led to any •n• a he could sof nu reason why it co'i miketilef 5114010 now be laid prostrate at the foot of the sreky v rorshipful, Pet he would not say Ancient Cotporetion of Loudon Printers. Those gentry bat thi4r favourites. His Honourable Friend was eifroas e ed soil hailed by them as a general Patron of .tba London Press. Ile thought the House ought to discard a sort of disgraceful objection to it.i . proicestiogs, and maintain those rules and or. deis which bits so long prevailed. lie would as. Serf, that the rights of the House were now in danger of being lust from misuse!. lie would have the Order occasionally enforced, for the same'rea sofi tbit the gates of a park was sometimes shut , up, to present the eetablishment of a right of footway. it was like the 0. P.'s, she bad set theapelisi up as the people of the country, and ; by tr Pistons of opposition and violence had corn. pelical f the Proprietors of the Theatre to give them plays at their ucu 'nice.. In this way the Pro. prjetois of Newspapers told them that the people must have a daily publication of the _proceedings of t~lous~f at ifierrlreakfast ; and is the name of piiblic os py, We have that right, anti bare friends in tic Hippie that will support us in our Ms ironourable Friend had said the chk. Tatter of the House was at stake; according to viich argunient, all the Houses for the last thirty Neiles,h'ed tio character ur ability at stake. His 110 hour-dale Friend was now also most anxious foi the characters of Ministers; ho conk, not blame him fur that sensibility; but he (Mr. Wind ham) ivas anxious for the fame of this littaille, and co l ulil pot see why they simold hesitate in sup, portitig a Staudt's; Order, which had the sanction if so many years in its favour. Fur these rea eo'esboishould certainly give his vote against the! Asnd FOLKESTONE agreed with the .Right UneoerableGentlethan ( r.Witiiihain) in some of positions. In What be lupl said of the venality Grilse press, he 4 hulierchl that .bo. was partly cOrreel; aqd ke also concurred with bins in be liting th;t the Got:stitution.had nut growstaatter le hie the limit thirty or forty years ; hut bo-slii not lbiisis that the -deterioration which had taken F144/41041* flost tie proceeded at all from the publication of the debates. lie would put it to thellUtlif htlf3l9r. the accumulation of taxes, the jntruaso OT the 'tending army, the building of batracks ) sud ocher circumstances of this nature out dens mosll.Jitjyry to the Constitution •• 'V • -7- 77 ~ T . rrtzSTAi'l S, within the last thirty years, than publishing thtilr debates ? As the pracere had now *OO4 the it number of years, he would agree with Right Honourable Mover against its interruOton lke in the present instance. There were times in Which he I was almost ashamed of the debates being publisheda No later than yesterday, questions had been ar. p i ed on both sides of the Hoese merolsy on party. principles, and as if thennly ob:ezt was the redo mining of office by one set of men, and the disk placing them by the other party. Ile Idol heard: , it even thrown out on a former occasion, as 4 re. I preach to some Members, that they 1141 nut re-.'l gularly enrolled • themselves under either of. the great parties. When such doctrines actheto were supported in that House by tke leading Alernkon ' on both sides, it was no wonder . that 'we'should now he told that the Constitution was not better at present than it was thirty years ago. He be. hewed that, on .the present occasion, IL was the ge neral wish of 'the House that the inquiry should be public; and that such a course would be the most likely to secure the confidoce of the public. Mr. WINDHAM, .in explanation, said, that he did not mean to attribute the deterioration which might be conceived to have taken place, to the circumstance of publishing the debates. Mr. YORKE said, that it would not be neces. Clary fur him to take up much of the time of the House ; but he must beg leave to say a few*Worsls on' the Standing Order which was the subject of the present question. Hemust, however, protest, as long as these Standing Orders continued in force, against the supposition, that there was any neces sity fora Member who should move the Order, to account fur the reasons which induced him so to do. He had, however, no objection to state, that he had felt it his indispensable duty to move the Order on the present occasion, from a consi. deration of the many gross misrepresentations and mistatements, w hick went forth to the public last year on a very important inquiry before that House. It , had been said, that the House was now to be considered as the Grand Inquest of the Nation, .and that they were in the situation of a Grand Jury. If that were the case, lie would a&k all those Members, who, like him, had often been on Grand Juries, whether sneh a: right had ever been slat up on thought of, as a right of strangers attending at the Grand Jury for the pur. pose of publishing their proceedings ? In fact, 110 such persons ever were admitted. Such a practice must priiduce infinite inconvenience and mischief; and if it were asked, why were not strangers cx. eluded upon the inquiry last year I he must say ' for himself, that he Aid feel the deepest shame, Ihst he had not upon that occasion moved the Standing Order. He certainly should hare done so, if he had been at all aware of • the nature of the case, or suspected how it would bare turned out. [A laugh.] The Standing Order fur n kick he now contended, was one of the most ancient of all the Standing Orders of the Mouse; and he considered that there was nothing mere valuably to the Constitution or the well-being of the c o ml. try, than . tho'dtie maiatenetice of INA priviiret.,ol that House. Ho ihoUghtitat," undue god , luso@ to the privileges of that Homes that the Common wealth owed its safety, and tba,t ,if o ver thole privileges shopld be taken away, the Constitution itself would soon be trampled ander foot. He therefore could not, for tho' sake of popularity, or any other ruaWii, tierce with the Right lion. Mover, or the Noble Lord, oil whit ho conceiv. ed would be a.l attaok on one of the moat import ant privileges of the . House. . . Lord FOLKESTONE ) in explanation, said, that h,c had 'not proposed any attack op Ike privy. leges of the House ; but, on the score-of popu larity, he himself had been warted, while the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Yorke) was high in office, of the unpopularity of the course 'bath he then fdlt it his duty to pursue. Mr. YORKE did not recollect the circumstance alluded to. , Mr. TI ERNgY said, that. he was always an advocate for maintaining strictly the privileges of that House ; nor would he agree to the motion of his Right Hots. Friend (Mr. Sheridan), if it had really been a motion for rescinding the Standing Order, with respect to the admission of Strangers. It was, however, no such thing ; it was only to refer the consideration of it to the Committee of Privileges, for them to inform the House, by their report, whether the Standing Order could not be amended. As his Right Hon. Friend had doubtless considered the subject wjth more atten tion than he had, he did suppose that he might have some serious matter to suggest ,tuthat Com mittee ; - and upon Oust ground he supported his motion. The Right lion. Gentleman . (Mr. Yorke) stated, that the House we, now in a situ ation similar to that of a Grang Jury. There was, however, this striking differeoce ; the pro. .c.eettiege• of the Grand-440y tweeeitet published . at all ; but in this instance, although the House might not choose to allow the newspapers to,,pab. lish their proceedings from day to day, yet they themselves were aware of the necessity of their being published, and intended to publish them in :linisther manner. He, for his part, could not conceive any ill consequences that would have re. salted, supposing every word of what passed last night in that House had been in the newspapers of .11iii day. He could, however, eas.:y conceive that it was in the power of the House to pursue another course, and while they left the Gallery open for the admission of Strangers, to preclude the publication of what passed in the House, in the Newspapers. About 30 years ago, the prac tice was to give tho Speeches, which were deli. vered in that House, under Roman names ; for the breach of privilege was not in misrepresent. lei, but in publishing the debate; of the House. Altheugh it. of .111 of great public inconvenience, and extremely painful to the feelings of Members to have th e ir isestfments misrispeesLuted, yet he would entirety' acquit the Proi cieturs of News. I papers of wilfully misrepresientiog. lle.hetieved the mhirepetnentations arose principally from the tutieldty oflise• public, to eve the debates at such a lungeh t :thipt was hardly possitti !elite them aceastete iv so ikstrt a space of ‘ime. 'The rea -IWI hea sitifild, Mk believe that there was any wil . I fel atistnreseutatitpOTai 4 *4 it was eunteeey.t:e 1 ..,. , • L.... * - . M.L . hitereat of those persona wilfully to misrepre. scot.• Tacit- own good sense would teach them, that It was by giving as accurate and true a report 'as possible, that they would have the best chance of selling their newspapers. He himself had no •personal acquaintance or connection wits any of them ; and If he 11.11, the greatest favour that . fie would ask of them was to let' him alone, as be never expected to see his selitiMents set off. to any peculiar advantage. Although, he personally felt little pleasure in perusing the accounts of his speeches, yet he conceived the public hail a right to know what passed in that House. He believed that it was true, that the slate of things had been get. Ling worse and worse for the last thirty years, and all that the public bail gained was, the satisfaction of seeing from day to diy what were the causes of this constant falling off. When it was considered that now a tenth part . is demanded of every man's income, it must be allowed that this was a thing not thought of thirty years ago ; and it would be too much to say, the public should not be permitted to know why it,is, that this constant increase of tax ation is pressing upon them ? As to the subject at present under.enquiry, it would be allowed that there never had been, at any former period, such an extravagant drain on the blood anti treasure of the country, as was made in the various calamit. , ous expeditions of the year 1809. There never did befal this country a more complicated calamity ; and 4 it was a subject of the most general and eManeholy irfterest to the publiey .it was lit that they should have .the tastiest and : best information upon it. As to • what had belt) stated of unwarraotable attacks made in that House on Members who professed to belong. to no party, he begged leave to declare, that no observations which -ever* fell from hint on that subject were intended to convey that mean-. log. He iflul for hircself consider, that the way he was likely to do the most good was by at taching hithself to what was called a party ; and he did not thiuk the discussions in the House would be at all improved by every Member cots. ing down to argue upon his separate and abstract views of the question; but he never meant to throw reflections on any lembers for not belong ing to a party ; on the cororary, lie thought he' saw in the coo,tluct of some 'Members a spit it of party of which they were tint thoTselves aware, and which made him consider theta as a third party in • the House: Mr. LYTTLETON supported the motion, end conceived that the Committee of PrivAges might easily find out a way. of having correct- iepurts published by authority, of whatever passed likthat ij oim .. 2 without excluding strangers. Mr. PETER M 0011.1.: trusted the Houle would indulge him in saving a few words, ire de, fence of what he CONCIEITed to be a vary meritorious class of individuals, the Editors of Newspapers. He was not acquainted with any of them ; but he übelieved they had dune more to ,eutUititteit and" strengthen the public mind than shy tither class in Abe community. A Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. W.) Lhasleseatseil hiniaelt a Gland to the liberty of the' t press, 111 it not to its ijostesit ptuetiost,it, Os press was, however, to bustill further fettered in its prat - lice, its liberties would be completely alsoihilated. Lie remembered to have read in former tithes, that Miuisters had given the following advice to timer Sovereign, " We must destroy the press, or the press will destroy us.", In the present licensed times, however, the proprietors of newspapers. l•were substaatial persons, who had given security. '-The Attorney-General knew where to find them, whenever he Should please to . lay his-hands upon . 'them. lie had himself seen. nothing in the papers to justify the degrading kerns in which they had been spoken of. He believed, that, as an ,article, of revenue, they yielded two millitirls a year to the government. lle *included, by expressing a wish that every thing that passel:- in that House should be made as public as posOlge. • Sir FRANCIS BURDETT began by-noticing the forbearance of many Gentlemen ro take a part in the debate, from whom be !night have expected to hear the ableit defence of the liberty of the press. lie must subscribe to many of the doctrines which he had Ireard,...and .whielt, be only found fault with as inapplicable to .the present tuation of the enuntry.' •It he coo' see in that House a body of Gentlemen fairly and . freely selected by the'people as the chosen pier. dians of their rights—if lie could see no Place men or Pensioners within these .walls, and that no corrupt or undue influence could ever be, sup_ posed to operate on the minds of any of the Mem_ bers of that Assembly,• then indeed he should see no particular objection'to the Inquiry Leing con. ducted in secret, and the evidence being given to the public in time manner that was now proposed. Unfortunately, however, the House stood, in the eve of the public, in a very dillere therstood 'hndercirentlitaores or g at re qt. situation. tier-- 7 P o, no, from some Members on the 'Treasury Bench]. It had been •considered by some, that they were on their last legs. As for his part, he greatly feared that they had not a leg to stand upon. The CIIANCELLOR of the EiCTIEQUER. rose to order. Ho stated, that in his opinion it was highly disorderly to assorts that the House of Commons had not a leg to stand upon. • The SP.EAri ER said, that it was highly dig. orderly fur any Member to say, that the House of Commons haul lost its reputation and character. Sir FRANCIS BU auETT continued. He had not made the assertion positively, as stated by the CIIA NCSILLOR of the Esenufautu, but stated it as his apprehension. The House might, recollect what passed in May last, relative. to a Minister negotiating fur the purpuse , of bringing in a Mem. her ..r parliament in the most corrupt manner; Opel it Was impossible foe them to shut their eyes against the opn.ion of thu public span that trans. action. He felt it his dittjy While a ftlember of Parliatutort, to speak the truth, and the•efhote truth, in that Unglue; but at the same time be knew Joust sect* it in a manger' agrotablt to tho order 'of the 'louse, il!id coeforinalile to those principles of common decency wiliCh Gun fleetest must observe in every .410seinbly. tie (void not, hnwevec, itoagieei that any attention t 4 ortfor would Oblico. Via *q aUllpoSe such an extreme degree of purity 'not allow our ears to hear that ashamed to Flo. As to this ni, elation of the privileges of the the contrary. The House w' ercising one of its highest pri. its consideration whether it shot of its Standing Orders. A Gesitlenian (Mr. Yorke) beg he was not bound to give an" (ion. As this we s his opii him, that he would have dot tempting to give any. He ht particular inconvenience w' strangers being present- at the• had he stated any partieuf tions which were made in that occasion. It appeared dente was given in the newsp, rectuess, and that the debates considerable exactness and 4 It appeared to him* that the more likely to he correct, sent way, several different int eta time. When he called u dcavour to stand Well in the it would appear is if he was than he had been heretofore of Reform. • He should, her that this was not the ease. House had now to perform . from.those of a (trend Jerk.' termined on ex parte evidence were now to hear evidence on come. to a determination on con. In the present. year, eleven or our countrymen had been sacr' that the public should be acqt circumstance of these transact House resolved upon an imp, stood that it was. to be a pob) i now to be a secret one, he •on. an insult offered to the public. if the House hau the least regard.' ins reputation ) \ or hope of . should give the utmost publiee . Mr. SHERIDAN then rose t, hoped that Ministers, and a Castlereagh) who was •raoterit inquiry, would not have shelf silence,. or 'acquiesced in the a dinary. doctrines 'chanced this' Hon. Friend (Mr. Wintlhatit Vtleud hat; begun by criticizin g loci - its. Viet .House, and his from it. Ilelloped his Right . 440 hint to be the • best kulge *tomes, which, in his opini 'malted forfilltattentianee; appeared tu accuse him fuebeing great party questions, where ?signing the ectudect -of the other, Jog to 'were them unfit for . r' tended on the first night of abe for the amendment ; but he real any question respecting a part sequence as:alseatitat-wh__ 4Ato'a fected Ori theirecter of Altdbionetit. ;, party represented the °thee office, he bad heard a Gentleman Gentlema n of the. House (the Chancellor o. say, that "br did not pretend for office than Many others in !` that lie did not believe the 'country forence for any other." Now ' whether, In point. of fact, the spresetve that clef: IStipetr fiat( great con tending paid*,. Ile nothing could . * More' dangero4,. good, •that.taak, absolute inciattrettee passed in *hat' Howse; and wish, that iiimpublie should interesting inquiry now pending. itr talking of his known fractiom of the press, said that! Whether to cal hlm the patron would, however, tell - him,' .0 considered the. Counsel ler Counieller mitred evew-lir. ; Hight Ilon.•• Friend • wished with him as being also a t of the press,• he truit beg his fraternal enthray. - [A me," said Mr. Sheridan, cellar " .give • me the Press, I will give Id House of Peers-1- will give servile Hoene of Commons—j , full swing of the Patronage of him the whole host of Miniatetiel give him all the. power that plt him, to purchase up subinnefew tistatieisi .and yeti armed with 0 git (PIO. Ili ittpst ' will attack thothlghty fabrick that ;flightier 'engine; .1 Will slit height correitiou, and bury of the abuses- it was meant [Loud cries of " Hear reiterated ,frons Alt parts', of He said, that fur 'the first time been tempted to wish that 0 cleared. It was out of his a, Honourable Friend, whose had'unt been heard by strangers—A taining sentiments that nut - with regret but horror. L had been. prevent to report a such broad and gencaal the inestimable blessing of the The doctrine of his Ilonottrabb ttrthis, that the liberty of the sance v a positive evil, which v mischief to the state, if allot. alit what was the situation . or presiont moment, when altar a. struggle against the must sire.tyranny that had ever MIN' what was $t owing that it was - wcontest, and bid defi.tnee Ic my, whQ had already 'overt,' against which he had directed and trampled upon the rights the proArate nations of Eurol aitribafe to *effect of Of libel i lta ii t i llw e l s ti h c i a h n t wi taking areilllilit notion' tendi:lg t a 7 le Home it was 6 rould be, in fact, hold not amen d -4 A Right lion us • 7 1 egan by saying , tire( 4 ty reasons fur his 1 . Mon, it appeared .' 1) 1 . .2 ..1, ,:. . d:. great ~ ~ , ; e pea ''l6::..vt.. one better in u nt -I t ' tad not elietifiell a ; rhich resulted r id' ,; cuter telsrep restfi n t '' the °" t olltiw o l e leati n p 6:::rti i i:lt.e l l s 'ih l li v sperla i ll e s o :sj r n twren e latrelteis o nitas t f a. k hhblrs t ainucP i et i i i l l e trayl ce : n mfi clti public, c e r'-. s hir . l • s were al..° given s i t : e spun the House to en is less impressed nu )re o f the necessity owever, assure thee rho functions that the. '1 7:. c c ' i i .A.wie l conflicting t r*l i vre ; 4 l a' g i ars' very e si 41 s de t ui i i: IP ri m r nlY s: d r den i It:: s c r' a r r c i : t i e:tr e n d s : e and ti v it ti b l e a t:v t l as d tl o u:r . L cquainted with every tquiry, it was under. lie one; and if it were :onceived it would he c. He thought, that gardifor their re ' main f . regaining it, they city to the inquiry. se to eerily; , lie h a d Isloble Lord. (L ar d rially interested te ON .tltereil rthemselves in ~ i ierattae and extraor. L i s • pieht by his Right s). We flight lieu. log lois recent appear. is occasion absence it Hem. Friend would . Igo of thole circuit. ion, most peculiarly is Right Hou. Friend Ping absent Offen some a one party as at. lther, nod Multavuur. eaffice.• lie. had at. be Seaslon amt voted eel ly did' not - eftetive sty wisa of , swelis ea*. 4 4 1 1 1 : 44 7 itt, „ la ... .:, ~.: .404,.. as_ . •stifit r 4. . . nen esi the other Sidi ae of the exchequer) aped to be more fit i that Heim; arid yet, nutty bad-visoch pre. )w he die,.*Ekknow the eoutstry .4111 eot dies. bqt*AiMiiie tip) g tiviimot, 7110 . 41414,. sTeltbe tit. tieft public ' iiif•yetice ft to what he 'thould .therefore 11k) admitted to the ling. His Right Ron. )wu attachment to the tie' Its did sot know an or the client. ~ 214 .that if he wavier be the pfcsic Hi' Wei a flattery.. o When his to oseekte himself friend. te. the liberty leg lettie to decline ' A laugh.] " ' Give . in a' tone of pa- s hut the Liberty of the Minister a venal Is hint a corrupt and -I wily ire him the of OlRce 7 4 will glee etiel iefluettee . --4 will place am confer upon efts* . thdlaretawe re- lit% the liberty of the heist him undismayed ick he hat reared wit shake down from ita r It beneath the ruiW it to iirc la. i !to." ---‘- . hear t . hoer!" wt , e of Me ' !base.] jaw in his life he had the Gallery had been affection for his Right a speech he wisharti lagers—a speech cnn. not only . fillpil hint .le wished that none 1 speech, holding forth propositluns against le liberty of the press. able Friend *mounted the press was a nut- h wuithi modem groat ,wed longer to exist.— or the country at tho e 4 and persevering in extensive and uppers. • .oslared mankind ? To is able to maintain such lo tluit powerful enc. vtltrown every P:twer ed his victorious arms, is and independence of 'tape ? All this he could iberty of the press aloe)