The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1808-05-06 00:00:00

le he V en F0..1 ... L aronet concluded by mo•+ing " That the Report be recommitted." Sir Alining. Wer,testry contenderli thatthe College of Maynootti was uriginallyinetituted by private subscription he reed• an address from the Catholics of Ireland. to the then .Lord Lieutenant, praying that the institution might be incorporated. He had made every iaquiiy.and every effort to make out what number of priests there were in the country, and had ascertained there were etil, 'and only 200 benefices ; mind he had also learned, thut in latter years 50 annually took omit* their degrees for priesthood from the College of ilisymootb, and sorely this was a sufficient number to make up any deficiency.' There weic also other Colleges that educated them for the same purpose, and iu almost every instance they were found to be persons of the lowest classes. Sir Joite NEWPORT, iu explanation, said, there was no other College where persons were educated for priests—there were preparatory schools—there Inas one in Waterfowl, and when they bad finished their school education, they were sent to the Col lege of Mayuooth. Fie remembered a (-imam etanee that was told him by a most respectable Ca tholic Nobleman • that a good and worthy priest bad gone to reside at Rome, WWI the Noblemati wrote to expressing nis wishes that he would Mme and reside in irelainl. His answer was, that be had a situation at Rome equal to ROOis a-year, Irish currency, and, if he had one bemired pounds e-year paid to bile as a freutleuum, he woad,' prtfcr being in his native country, but he never could think of living there and receiving his pittance as a beggr - The Honorable -mow T AGU M ISEW- 11 Sir, I am astonished that any Miuirter in the station of Secretary of State for Ireland should "not know the si tuation of the country better. The Hoe. Secretary ought to reside in it a little more. He ouglajtaia veetis,mte the state of the country to make hjuiseif competent to act as its Secretary in that Horse." He (Mr. Mathew) had resided move in thut comary these last seven years than he trier dilla his lite, and he found it necessary, as the people .beustue sore oppressed. He thought it his duty to he with them to appease their just discontent. He was the friend of Catholics mid their emancipation. He had coltivated their friendship, and there is, no class of men he was more proud to amociate Alb. His Majesty had ao better nor more faithful subjects. He had been at Mavnooth later than the Hisuoura hie georetary. He went Lena on purpose to in !suite into its date. Time house is cot fluished—if is not leaded—and from the most authentic infor mation, if you do not give them the mine great you did last year, it will never lie hui.hed. The Head of the College informed hien, that the firma est number of students ever entitled to their de yeas in one year, was 19, although the Honoura ble Secretary had stated that they am.uuted to Ally annually. He had heard the loyalty of the Catholics doubted. Ile held in his hand a letter from Napoleon, the Conqueror of the Con tinent, -to the College of alayoooth, and the Re mm Catholics of Ireland, holding out great others , to them, if they would forfeit their allegiatice to their King; but they inditnautly rehired the offer. This mem not be thought a fictions. He held elseeneinals in his hands, even the answer to the :otter. signed by Mr. 'Fro!, the Archbishop of Dutilim and all the other Bishops of Ireland (a load call of read it, read it(. He would state the substance, hut it was too long to read.— The answer refuses all communication with France; and adds, that if auy Irish Catholic should accept of the proposal, and receive in education in any college under the idiocies el Bonaparte, he should Anew receive guy' church preferment in Ireland ; that they had full confidence in the Ad ministration, and were certain that their situations would be properly attended to. He should wish the House to recollect it was not the present Ad tainistrution they spoke of, but the late. Are these the people you will not do any thin for? that you do not consider worthy of a grant of a few paltry Clouse ads ? Why do not you turn them out of your armies and year navy ? He would wish Ministers to attend more to whit Gentlemen said Oa his side of the House, for if they did not, they- winild Bail the dreadful effects of their in atteatma ahem it was toe late CUT remedy. He did not wish to speak of the Royal Family, but he mould riot see what (Canter* meant by being c:osetail with a Royal Duke for hours before tiny brought nue measure into that House. Mr. C. W. W. %Vs, wemild nut think it was the suggestion of the Noble Perseu s who gave Lind Camden his in.tructions as to the present insti tution. wheo hr was Lur.l Lieutenant of Ireland ; nor coul I it be the suggestion of the Noble Lord himself, who had congratulated the Catholics on their rialuisitinn, and that it would he no longer necessary for them to aced their clergy to foreign countries to lie educated ; hut it way the Act of a Secretary nut present s (Lord (;astlereagh), who wonted to destroy the peace and happiness of that unfortunate country. He wee not favonrable to the present Administration ; but he thought it was bad poliker fur auy AJusiiiistratiou to hold out to any set of men that they were hostile to them. The Cansecatuia of the Reanimate wished to know were the Hinsoorable Gentlemen right in calling it.contrary to toleration, to wish the people, dissenting from the established church, to bear a pert oldie expense for educating their own Priests ? Nlbiultl they call it toleration to vote away the public money for the erlocatios of dissenting cler e) mei! ? It would be friend that the persons who stistlied the support of their own church and belief, - would not be partial to such toleration. The phi losophers who planned the French revolution were the great advocates of toleration. The question of toleration did . notalepend ai numbers; he thought an iudividual hail as much right to toleration as a great number ; and if it was granted to the Roman Catholics, the clergymen of every sect of dissenters would hare an equal right to be educated at the vicpenee of the country. In the But instance, the Catholics oily askei to have the college ;denim rated, and to he supported from their own funds, but the Government did at that time gencesusly contribute wool. and have increased their grants al.nost annually. We do at present afford them the means of educating two /melte! ant tirty stastents, and we do not say the.; shall not can cafe any more. They may educate as res any as they may thick proper at their own expense. -.They have Cat 11% same ren4s khey had at the commencement TA I,* ;Attain:lbn, although the sum proposed to be Toted is lesirthort that grant ed by the list ParOuineate I )et it was a generous grant—a Tote to Hn excess for elocatiuti, and such kind of education ! Bet he und-rstood from the Honourable Gentleman who said he bad been re ceotly at Mayitooth, that it would be taken inane thee light, and that the present vote would he the cause of a rebellion. (iVe, nu, from the other !Me of the House.) Mr. NI explained, and denied that he had mode use of any such expression. The CHANCELLOR of the EgettEet!Fe expressed his hotness to thud be WAS mistaken, Had E. 001.• eluded iy observing, that whenever any Measure was brought 'forwent by His Majesty's Ministers, there was always something dark and mysterious charged to theta, which it was impossible for them to explain. as they did not understand it. Lord HENRY PETTY was astonished that the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Per easel) should ratoress surprise at the charge of secret ingstence. 'l'he secret inflaeoce and secret Mi nister that decided the fate of a recent Bill (the Bill to restrain Reversionary Grants), could hot be out of the recollection of the House. But did the Right Honourable Gantl,man's colleagues expect to get clear of the charge by absenting themselves? (None of the Ministers ~tit Mr. Percival were pre sent). The origiinii g ant in this ease did not ex ceed the sum voted - that Malt', -within 14 hours after its first propose', to Judges, for doing no thing; et this sum is denied as ton much fur the great mass of His Majesty's *objects in Ireland.— The .rant in the one case, mid the refusal in the other, lie contended, both preceeded from the same secret influence, and the vine nominal Prime Minister. 'f tie establishineut was commenced in the Administration of Lord Westmorland, and was continued itnl enlarged in that of Lord Cam den, both of them now Cabinet Ministers. He would recommeod the High: Hoaourable Gentle- Oleo to ask their Noble Colleagues, what was their intention us to the institution and the grant' for the giant of the eatablitiament necessarily im- Ved au intent to atford toe means to support refuse, then, the original sum, was iiot only a want of honour, but a ••gueil the a4selice of every pnneipla of justice. It was impossible for coy man. who read the papyri upon the table, to say that there is not a notreseity for • PHIS equal t• that granted during the late Adinitustration. The Hon. Secretary, the seli . -ereated defender of the Irish Protestant Chum h, rens, there are QO) parishes in that country; but the numaer would ,ieritap., ha more correctly stated at Sl3OO. Thi• question then is, whether, with the Catholic Religion existing in Ireland, and three millions of Catholics in that country, the House would its , " them a well educated, well disciplined, and mvilizi-d people; or a. people sunk in ignorance, and without Oily education at all ? There are several )lcitt bets in the House who here in parts of ire- Ird where they a e entv ely sarroaaided by Ca 't otics, without the interveatina of a single Pro tstaut ; and he wished ti know whether they would feel win :secur- amidst well-disciplined Catholics, under toe care of a Pastor educated at home, or aio.-iag igoorasst Catholics, with a Priest of foreign education ist lace. head ? He was aware that souma politicians had held that it was desimote that the pouulation of a country should be reduced to a state of positive ignorance. de With persona of such description, tabs se mi.ds most he so strangely perverted by prejudice and 'miry," said Mr. Burke, ** I will notcondescend*o argue.' The French Phi losophers, who engenderel the Revolution, main tained the same principles as thoseof Right Honourable flentleman opposite, and of those politicians wham Mr. Burke condemned. Thee were men who :ironosed to attain a speculative point thsough an infinity of evil, who were looking to a fixed horizon, hut, like the traveller, saw that benison always fleeing before them. TiisdaNer of the country, he admitted, was pressing, hut that woe no reason agaiiist the agitation olthe ques tion. It was rather a reason for looking at the true state of the country, with a view to make the best of it.—lf, however, the system recom mended by Ministers is to be adopted, he wished to know what is to be the state of the country, while that experiment is in its course of trial ? If the expenneot should fail, where are we to find gaols, and bolts, and bars, to coutine three millions of people? What security were we to have against the bursting of the storm, while the speculators were proving their experiment ? Who in such a crisis will secure our Church and State, and Protestant Establishment, for which' hey boast so much attachment? We might say to them— . " ----.---- Yes him " Pat the wild waters la this roar, alley them" Load cry of Hear ! Hoar !) But this is a re sironsibilitywhich His Majesty's Ministers would not undertake. It was curious that they should have absented themselves. When they were in opposi tion they did not oppose the grant, and now when they are in power, they do not oppose the proposi tioo to take it away. Thus the affairs of Ireland appear to them ai matters of perfect indifference. For the sake of the paltry crrnsideration of 30001. was it fitting to tell'the Catholics, that Lord Cam den, Lord Cornwallis, Lord Ilardwicke, and other Noblemen, who were friendly to this esta blishment, when at the head of affairs in Ireland, were all mistaken, and that the House meat to retract from that plan ? He believed in his heart that it was possible for any Government, by a steady and moderate system of conduct, to remove all discontent and jealousy from thb minds of the Irish Catholics, and therefore he must regret the con duct of Ministers on the present occasion, us it was calcnlated to produce a contrary effect. Mr. WILBERFORCE slid, the subject was one of considerable delicacy, and he felt the difficulty of speaking upon it not a little aggravated by the conduct of Gentlemen on the present occasion. If the Noble Lord (Petty) felt all the liberality which he professed, it was strange, that, after pushing to the very extremity of extension the coadact or hi. Right Hon. Friend, (Mr. Pereeval), he shual.i a-einie them of meting in a way to excite irritation. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Perceval) laid it down, that toleration does nut require that the public' sleitild teach at their own expense the children of a relagion differeat from the established one ; and this principle strikis. 14 1fAtaiP. gent, he associates wi th it prisons, and amts, aryl bars, and every thing thit it terrible, In spite 'of experience. he weatd hattairuperead front the Gen tlerneu opposite that they grotdd have eudettroured rather to soften 'thin to irritate, that they would have rather endeavoured to present than to pro voke the consequences ~ t which they seem so much afraid; and yet every thing which fell from them was only calculated to produce tl.at mischief witch they affected to deprecate. This much he must say as preface. Upon the subject itself, he re peated, diet he felt cousitlootiaia pain and solici tude. If the principle of...the Gentleineu opposite to him be right, they awn ',neon, that you may take any sect dilferentTrom the established religiou of the cobntry—the Illation for instance; or any other (a load cry of Heat ! hoar .') and that it would be justifiable to spepd the money of the tame in its cultivation'. The Flom Gentlemen opposite appeared, from their manner, to feel that there was eo.iie limit to their principle of toleration, and he must impute it to us error in their understandliq, and note defect in their hearts. liedid not construe toleratioar iu the special pleading of the philologist*. 11e meant it in the sense in which it was understood by Locke, by Rousseau, and Voltaire. Toleration, according to them, means is others to follow -their religious principles in their own wily, so long as they ao not interfere with the cis i haw. That privilege, the Gentlemen on the other side ku ,a, was refused to ireiniheree time ago. " For this principle I would contend with all my strength, s al though I would not raise an infatuated say. To. leration means distinctly whist,l have Mated, and this is the lint instance in whtoh a proposition for the education of priests different from the estahliph ed religion has been made and prevailed.' -i When the House carried its liberality so far as to pion& for Catholic Priests, was it too lunch to oily it ought not to carry its liberality so far as to preside for all the Priests ? It web impossible fur those who read and remembered 7'be history ,v not to feel a jealousy of the Catholics, (flea.! hear ! frost the Opposition Bench) ; and he could not see ut ail claims boa the country should be called upon to support a superalmodant number of Priests. •WheisCseutleasita talked of thethithelic Religion. Abet seemed to forget dust religion is add- , fervid thiug • in different ranks. They forget that the reli, of the limas is not what it is is the hig her classes, whose minds are liberalised by intercourse with the world. 'io luau was a more decided enemy to peeves:whoa than hiar.,elf, sus no moo will ever be thorn. willing to assist individiudx to worship God hi their own way, but he and his frit:ids mud he forgiversfor their solici tude that the Protestant religion should have lair olay—(lfear hear tort the Irish Ca dilution should not he greater than uecessary. The dan gar of Ireland was bottomed iu this very difference of religion. He wished to kuow whether the ( len tlemea opposite hod a rece4st fur tranquillising Ireland ? and Whether the ground of iliKonleall, would not remain as !sing as the Government was of mie religion, and the mass of the people of another ? Lord MILTEI 'observed, that the Hoch Gentle.- man who spoke loaf had reprrseiffed him-elf as ae•' enemy to toleration, yet when.* recollected his, opposition 16 a blll to open the door to Disioentero,• he must doubt his practice, however bound he might feel to give credit to his professions. His, Lordship maintailiell that a sufficient ground had not been made out for narrowing the grant. Ha.. was called upon in common, with his friends to smudge the wounds of the Catholics, hut this was an admission that wounds hail been inflicted ; and the House should recollect that the laws had not been made against them, because they were Catholics, but on account of their attach ment to the House of Stuart. Born in a county in which the Christian religion was practised in its greatest parity, he hoped he was not so insensible to the blessing, as not to iish ever/ persona( the same church us his ow is ; but if we knew that we could not convert the Catholics to the Protestant religion, then it became oar beat policy to enlightea them, as the more they were enlightsmed, the less would he the danger }'tom the difference of reli gion, and the greater the chance of attaching them to their fellow subjects. Mr. LAING was of opiuipm. that a more glorious opportunity than the present, of producing uni versal tranquillity, never occurred to any . Adlcinis tration. It was not a questioo of teleiatiou. but of sound legislation. It was wise policy to con solidate all classes of society ; and, consequently, wise to attach to the Government the heads of a religion professed by the muss of the people. The Honore would now lose or embrace the opportuuity of es tablishing the legislature fur cier upon the basis of the religion of the countr)•. Mr. Hittite? (Member for Berry) said, there was a variety of circumstances, to make the cur tailment of the grant the most impolitic measure that could be possibly devised. The Hon. Member then proceeded to urge,lhat the Union took away the only plausible argument against equal, treat. tnent to the Catholics; that the Catholic tenantry in Ireland coutnbuted to the support of the esta blished church; and pressed several other arguments in support of the larger sum. Lord Potion:slant contended, that if the argu ments of the Lion. Gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce) went to prove any thing, it was% that it was better to have an unonlightenedCatholic Priesthood. Indeed, if they were to be understood in their practical application, they went to the extinctieu of the Catholic Religion itself. The Hon. Gent. had, its the course of his speech, laid great stress upon the term to. Did he mean to identify himself with the views sad policy of the Chancellor of the kz chequer, or was it his object to ethibit himself to Parliament, and the country, as the mouthpiece of a certain religioui persuasion—that persuasion", by whoa public report gave out that kr was to be canonized ?—(is longla).—With re spect to the grant itself, it had been stated by the Chancellor of -the Exchequer. that hi, great objection _against this monastic i n stitution was, that it alienated the Irish Catholic from 'nix ing with other habits. Such an objection too from him—from him who was and is prepared to ex, tea. that class of his fellow-subjects from the partici pation in any interest or privilege, from the coyest-- ment of follow-feeling ; and now, disclaiming am wish to inform or to cultivate their mental progress, fixed .pn their ignorance as the instrntaetik of his seduction. _ _ Mr. Gement PonsONlllV, is an animated goer. , .replied to the camel rations of the l "'anti io, the Exchequei., al.d of Mr. W nisei torte. e -e charged by then*" said he, of a wish to arouse religious emu:oaths. for edralicenient of our per* views Who is there but isnot. admire the oda _witty of the application, and applaud the cth- - aistency of the quarter frcin wheats" teas sonnies ties proceeds 1 Surely that niost escsilost ttttuMst would never cohdt.t.cetnt to rail* for hat own views a religuine ioturtateti cry Ortitio esst,irtl He certainly ie not the inan who could condescend tp such beat ex pedieutt ? / Leer! hear Sos,erior to all such tleh:uoug trickerrf i.nbey ; Mane all such vulgar subterfuges, shine r tit `tor growling Statesmen 44 puny politicians ;.ist hat uislatiati tie stoical co maim, open fakir alarms, nut cc n teuiptible wily. because they site dangerous. It is for such a time to appeal to our armee, candour, and inodetatioa, to warn us of the snochief Which religious discord may create, and 1 11 , hrstioth our unanimity upon the einniesadieg thflueace of the love of country. Aker! hoar ! Aearf)— •It. epnW Weer be raid of such A Minister, that he lied owed fist official existence to the wicked cry of ". No Popery, awl. the Church int danger;" or that he hail not borne Iris iseclusioa •frein wi44 petietice, and opposed the mama of his politii al opponents with a teesperate atidrieshifiud 'pikers of discussions No; he is too generopes to* tweittiftl fee such a line of conduct. Ise part ieisates trio limp by pf the benevolence of „the Hon. Cientleniaa bent tid him (Mr. Wilhestsirce), to lead his. tolerant OaSIS to such a forbidding and ; heat If i eceariend et•bis, who is eves beneficent* Abell; eiptbed mid wrapped in the sientinof philasthropy, embracing all ranks, all peseuesieue, end elf cesen- plexions, in tilt scope of his ermine , ex cept myself, to)- Honour iple .b trends mound stet sad the Catholics of treiseil. teetAidbit ao le pptobatifige of any tem,' measure if 'peolicis4 if we reprobate th; or OM ether ppopoe6 Or o f Gmerutaeutsireif .slate. our opposition epos • the iutriesic demerits of the eneasure inielfs--ouv aroma** have no avail; the defect or mischief of dr! measure is no *leftist, of cur proceeding* fu such epis our conduit is factious, unpahseeire, *Ail Grimiest. Witte' usable to chifeint Nene+ . If /porgies of his gee nielisilres, the Mitiestell unities himself behind the base motives whieh eve mputed-to- hie opponent* although *here are ekes woes in which he can yield up a great ingesireof uational defence, when he feared that .the perks** once wouhipeeitsalsly endaoger his official eximelbth. Hut we are, told that it, is 0111' duty is aseiniesillee people of freissela instead of irnarting them ; thaw 111-treaded as they are, we might to exercise our in fluence, and assure them that they are mistak& in imputing•hostility to their interests to this hews= tiful and tolerant Chancellor of the Exchireleer —bountiful to the sum of 90001. hew he iris qeite exhausted; toleration ends at this 9004. : and eattobbblunent iuterposer at IE4OOI. bat, rays the Honourable Gentlemao_sppesite, 4Ms Wilberforce) the prospect with - reipeet. ter behind is d retry indeed. And be asks us what nirearesf wilkeyr and of advantage we think ought to be pummel I will answer him, and tell lam that tgete is ids use• for any of es to p at:measures) this Hew.. whilst he and his tolerant " ' bend, the Chasieillersi the Exchequer, are ever oa the atnetch to .our motives, nod to corer *Nue . with ara: er l have the honour to act, with obloquy, and, if jogai- We, with contempt. What amatitutsonad right or . civil issenuuity &my he and his boun tiful friend hold out to the people of Iceland?— What relaxation of suffering or enjoyment of pri vilege does behold out to that ill-uorsi people ? Au absolute refusal of whatever they ask is the only re ceipt with which they are conversant...-11kor ! thaw !f—Theis say they the sum of £ 9 ,000 is sat. licieot. Where have they found that out ? The Chancellor of the Exchequer assunacs, and there fore he asserts it. The fact is, that such a grant is not competent to its professed purpose. Again, such a superfluity. of Catholic Pneqs endangers the RICCI'Ss of their malting_ proselytes airostgat the Protesiahts. One should sopi.ose' thst an Ireland they had Ca4iiiiiitis enough to attend to.— But seriously I call upon any Irish Ala miser in this House candidly to slate whotherghere is the least ground for this appreliensiou ? I call upon him to say, whether it. was not iroatidarrio suppose that the Catholic Priest would -thin •of commencii g such a crusade as this ? (Been. J. A ff ord th en .a grant competent to provide t e due number of priests ; without doing so, it is impossiblo to give to that claws of year fellow-subjects satisfac tion. And unless you give satisfaction, better cot give any part of the grant at all.' B;liev*i ate,, the surest road to•aatiottal anaaimity and public strength, is by giving suchgoaots with liberality and kinflocas,aiwidiag all the odious suggestion* which we have this night heard.. if it he the wish of tom House to :assure the affectionate attachment of Ireland,-amid in your int-romire all narrow, stir did, and illiberal view's. Whilst she is treated with a yeoman kiadneis by you, 'be will neVer fail to repay it by an active and generous gratitilde." Mr. STCPHZIee . spoke against the grant, and strongly 'reprobated the education of Popish Priests, by a Protestant Government. Mr. Quart as .gave the Mat Speaker credit for a Mitere nod - pure conviction of the truth of the oh *emotions which be advanced ; but it was a parity of motive and sincerity of conviction which might involve the British Empire in an immensity of mis. chief. Such statements must be beotticial to France, and ultimately rninous to this Country...-. To tell the Catholics that their religion was alio geroas, and their allegiance doubtful, at this mo ment, when death was ow his march,. might give pail' to thot people, but must entail coin no our rm. Aire. •' If," said he, " I was impressed with such a strange idea, I should fed it nay duty, on thegrootid of paltry, to preserve • fixed silebee on the subject. For if we it in this House to criticize ow the vedigi. nn of mafioso of our fellemmehjecta, if weassamitio here to impute disloyal roofings and brume/able intentions to • great proportion of those who till our armies and man our does ; I my, if few Mt I Purposes the people's Repreacatatives meet -toes- I 'her, the nation is theologically mad, and a.muat bt onlitically rinsed. Thee dreadful ravages of i ebgauus ammo./ have been too legibly written is the to *for. WINS of oho country, to be totally out of our re-