The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-06-06 00:00:00

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A ~_ 4- !, ~. ,4 11 , , I ft i 'IIIE STATESMAN. 4111111:11 fore disclaimed, and I do now again solemnly dis. the selection of the Domes to Lords Grey and Grin. claim so unworthy, so dishonourable a feeling, vine,. without any instruction or personal exclusion; unfit to have place in the min ds of p ublic men, that in completing the arrangements, the Prince Roe at any period, but above all most unfit to have gent has granted to Lord Wellesley the entire liher place in the mind of any man wino entertains Ity to propose the names of any persons to hold places the design of partaking iti the Adniinistra- in h is Royal Highness's Councils, or any other per. tion of the affairs of the country, at this awful sons.' and momentous crisis.—[Hear, I '• This, my Lords, was the proposition made to her rj—lbul my Noble Friend con fi ned himself to an exteanetion I us, and which we understand as naming particular merely upon this subject, I shou ld not have felt the persons, and as limiting, circumscribing, and pro smallest disposition to trouble the House on the pre- iitlitig, by previous stipulated arrangenient, that par seut occasion with a single word ; for I concur with 1 ticuler places shall be assigned to slut particular hits, at this moment it is desirable that all discussion persons. Under such circumstances, I need scarcely upon the general question should be as much as pos. , add, that the proposal met with my decided refusal, bible avoided : but I cannot help remarking, that al-1 sanctioned by the concurrence of my Noble Friend though I doubt not my Noble Friend's understand- before me (Lord Grenville), after consultation with ing, I think he has asserted what is by no means cor. my Noble Friend behind me (Lord Holland). It is rect. I must take leave to state, that the impression true , the suase q uent ex p lanations have been afforded made upon my mind by an official and authorised by the Noble Earl (Moira), but without professing paper, which 1 was called upon to consider, is com. to have any instructions or authority from the Prince pletely at variance with that which he has expressed. Regent. In doing so, I give him full credit for It was distinctly notified to me in that document that ' , that anxious desire to promote the interests, tran the Prince Regent had signified his Royal pleasure , quillity, and prosperity of the nation, which, as to the persons who should fill particular otitces, thienighout life, he has uniformly displayed.—[lear t Four individuals were expressly named, and the place : her. r!]—These explanations were, however, private they should occupy as Members of the Cabinet,' and personal, for the purpose, as he conceived, of poin • ted out in the written proposal that was submit. removing• an imputation on his conduct; but as I ted to my inspection. It is necessary for me to give ' have before said, they were not of an - official cha. this explanation, because upon that understanding of , raster. That he was not vested with any powers for the words, to my mind obvious and unequivocal, : this purpose, is confirmed by a letter from the Noble rested the decision which I felt myself compelled to : Marquis, who, referring to these explanations, stated form. I sincerely regret that the Noble Marquis, distinctly, that neither he, nor the Noble Earl, had principally instrumental in these transactions, is not . authority to make any but private communications, now present to state to the House his construction of and he expressed his regret, that they had not the the terms employed, thus affording an explanation : Prince Regent's express commands to enter into such equally important to himself and to the country." j explanations as he deemed necessary. I have thought. Earl MOIRA.—" You must, my Lords, be sen. ' it due to myself, and to my friends to notice dis sible, that were I to discuss the subject alluded to ' tinctly these facts, and they were further necessary by my Noble Friend, who last addressed you, I 'in answer to what fell from the Noble Earl, on the should enter upon an invesgation as impolitic, as la- subject of the delay which has occurred. To the pri borious and irregular, because it is impossible that ; vate confehunications, with the concurrence of my the House should be able to exercise a mature' Noble Friend, I returned a prompt answer, in which judgment, or to form a deliberate opinion, when i I referred to the former official paper, containing the there are no facts before it to afford the requiste in- authorized proposal upon which I had already cone. formation. [Hear, hear!] It would be the more ' munica ted my determination; at the same time, I improper, in the absence of the individual who is , felt that these personal explanations, if subsequently most materially and immediately concerned. With , sanctioned, might remove some of the obvious ob respect, however, to the conduct of the Noble Mar- . jections to the detail, yet they in no degree altered quis, I would observe, that in my humble judgment it i the general principle, on which I had rested my pre. is impossible that any man placed in a situation .of i lions decision. Thus much, it appeared necessary such di ffi culty, could have conducted himself with ', that I should say, to prevent the possibility of mis more high honour, or mere delicate uprightness.— , apprehension, and I lament sincerely, that in conse. [Hear, hear!] Whenever this important subject . quence of the speech of the Noble Earl, it was shall be discussed, in which the Noble Lord must ne- utterly impossible for me to remain silent." eessarily take a prominent part, and the House is; Earl MOIRA.—" The great difficulty that has called upon to declare its decision, all persons, I am arisen rests solely upon the construction to he put well assurer:, will be convinced, that what I have upon the document from which the Noble Fail has stated is strictly t?tie. As to the particular point to read a passage, and I confess, that they strike my which my Noble Friend has alluded, I believe that ! understanding in a point of view directly opposite.— its obscerity is owing to a deficiency of information: The Noble Lords would probably have thought with I imagined that some misapprehension must have ex- me, if they had possessed the same mane of judg_ isted, and if any delay has been experienced in the , ing ; for in a previous interview with the Noble establishment of an Administration, lam persuaded' Marquis, I had an opportunity of knowing the real that it has bee,i in a great degree, if not solely, at. : sentiments by which he was actuated in drawiqg up trihutable to an unfortunate misconception. When : the written proposal. The Noble Marquis will it shall have been removed, negociations, I trust, may i hereafter have an opportunity of bearing testimony be renewed in those quarters where talents reside, most , to the correctness of my statement ; the whole sub essential to the due discharge of the arduous. nine- , ject was opened with a spirit of the utmost fairness, tions of the state. If delay have occurred, I am i and with a sincere desire to leave ample room for convinced that it has arisen from an earnest desire ton subsequent discussions and arm ngen ents.• With re obtain assistance from a source most adequate, and ' gard to the nomination of individuals, it was to be not unwilling to afford it." , understood to be a mere statement of a wish on the Earl GREY.- 44 It is far from my wish to pro. pot of the Illustrious Personage, who administered long any discussion on this subject, in the state ip I the power to the Noble Marquis, and it was natu which it at present stands, and I should certainly rally believed that the names introduced would be have done what my Noble Friend (Lord Grenville) acceptable to the Noble Lords, because they shewed stated to be his intention, namely, abstained from; the amicable tone and disposition i n w hi c h th e p ro _ troubling the House with a single word, if the state- posal was made. For the lest seven years it is ment made by the Noble Earl who spoke last, had ' known that I have not belonged to the party usually not placed me in a situation where it was necessary , designated the Opposition, and though free from all to clear myself at least from misapprehension. It is political engagements, yet our views in general have unquestionably my wish that no ex parte statements been so accordant that I have voted with them, per should go forth to the world before the whole cf this ' haps upon more occasions than even some of those important question shall be thoroughly and corn- Noble Lords who have been styled their firm political pletely examined ; but it is above all things noses-' friends, and this circumstance may shew at least, sary that I should stand clear in the opinion of your 1 the disposition with which my name, with others, Lordships, and in the estimation of the public, and I was inserted as an individual to be honoured with a if an erroneous assertion have been hazarded by my ; seat in the Cabinet. I see likewise a Noble and Noble Friend (Lord Moira), however pure may , Learned Friend (Lord Erskine) whose name will have been his intention, I must beg leave to correct likewise be noticed, and to whom the same remark it: if it he directly adverse to the judgment I have ' will apply. I can conceive nothing that more deci formed after due deliberation, it is necessary that I ' sively and unequivocally shows the intention with should state to this House and to the country, that : which the proposal was framed, than the circum in the decision I adopted, I was guided, as I think stance that it points to the political friends of those correctly, by a diametrically opposite interpretation. to whom it is addressed. The House will also re -1 understand the Noble Fart (Moira) to maintain, ' mark, that there is no designation of particular offi in the first place, that the Prince Regent, in the ces, or indeed of any one office, so that all was left communication his Royal Highness thought fit to open to the fullest discussion, and I shall be much make to my Noble Friend below me, had named no • surprised when the Noble Marquis is afforded an op_ particular person to fill any particular situation ; and portunity of making his statement, if he does not in the second place, that the proposal came to us per. t confirm my opinion, that his instructions were ditto fectly uncircumscribed end unfettered by previous' most . geueeal and liberal•riature I will even go fur stipulations. That the Noble Ettil dues so under- thee, for unless the nature of the interview between stand it I cannot for an instant doubt, and I, much the Noble Marquis and the Noble Lords was of a na lament that the Noble Marquis, who was the than- tare entirely different frouethat which I obtained, the net of this authorized communication, is not pre- Noble Marquis must have stated distinctly that all sent to give his interpretatien ; but having received that ' ulterior arrangements were to be matter of future authorized communication first personally and ver- free and unshackled discussion. But, my Lords,, I belly to myself, and afterwards when it was corn. am deviating from the course I would lay down, and witted to writing, and having understood it accord- lam chewing, in my own person, the unfitness of ing to the natural and obvious import of the words, arguing a question before the necessary information it was impossible for me tceact then, or to act new, is supplied. The truth is, that I put one construe regarding that proposition, in any other way than tion upon the paper, and my Noble Friends put an. that which was dictated by the plain construction of other, and surely I have a right to contend that. it , the language employed. I must here beg leave t o has be en m i sa pp re h en d e d, an d l oo ki ng at t h e service : read from the written document a single. paragraph, of the country as the object in view, it will not be 1 the subetaace of which was first personally made denied that it is a laudable attempt to remove the ; known to me. , misconstruction. It might, perhaps, be expected by ' That his Royal Highness the Prince Regent has some Noble birds on the other side that I should i signified his pleasure that Lord Wellesley should disclose s o me thi ng regar di ng the present state of the I conduct the formation of a Government in all its negociatiou ; but thoug h I would discountenance ; branches, amid should be First Commissioner of the any such communication at present, vet if it be re- Treasury, and that Lord Moira, Lord Erskine, aid quired I shall not shrink from ruakiug,. it, but it will j Mr. Cannieg should be Members of the Cabinet. I not be forgotte t i that it was only yesterday morn ' That it was probable that a Cabinet funned on ! lug that I was able to a s c er t a i n w h a t course o f pro an enlarged basis, must be composed of twelve or' seeding ought to he adopted. Although our efforts thirteen Members ; that the Prince Regent wished have hitherto failed, yet—Uookin e e towards Lords Lords Grey and (lrenville, on the part of their Grey and Grenville] even at this moment my friends, to recommend for his Roe al Highness's ap- 1 hopes of conciliation and un i on are not ext i nct i n a probation the names of four persons, if the Cabinet i yearter where I am anxious that my offers shall be . should coresiet of twelve, and of five persons, if it ' accepted, and which his candidly manifested a dispo-, should coesist of thirteen Members, to he appointed sition to promote the general' object. It has been by his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, to till admitted on all hands, that a crisis of greater danger such situations as might hei eerier he arranged: and difficulty never was known; a moment when the 4 That his Royal Highness the Prince Regent left country claimed, more anxiously the service of every man who is capable of rendering assistance, was ne ver recorded lif our annals ; and I hope, that neither these nor any other discussions may communicate to public men, ai 1 am sure they will not to me, any ' sharpness of spirit which may delay, or perhaps even defeat, an object on all accounts so. essential to the welfare and perhaps the existence of the British Em pire. Under these impressions I wish at present to go no further, and shall sit down, repeating my `firm conviction of the spirit of conciliation with which the original proposal was made to my Noble I Friends." Lord ERSKINE—" The House will, I hope, ex ! ruse me, if, after what has fallen from the Noble Earl, I feel it necessary to say a few words noon this subject. It appears to me that the real question to be decided is, whether my Noble Friends are jus. 'tilled in putting the construction they hold upon the written proposition made to them, apd this construc tion was to be ascertained by a candid and fair pe rusal of the paper. I confess for one, never having seen the document, or indeed heard of it, until it was read to me in company with others, I put the same construction upon it as that which is entertained !by my two Noble Friends. That the proposal was made in the most liberal spirit, and from the most honourable motives, cannot he denied; and had the object been attained, the deliverance of• the country from its present calamities could not.have been placed .in better hands. It was, however, most material, that those who, at the present crisis, when all me imperiously called upon to exert their utmost talents for the welfare of the State, refused to accede to the • proposition,. should point out distinctly, and beyond the possibility of doubt, the solid grounds on which they rested. It is at alt times desirable that public men should stand clear in the opinion of the nation, and as the interpretation I put upon the document I was precisely that which my Noble Friends enter tained, I thought it right thus shortly to express my concurrence in the sentiments they have expressed." The Marquis of DOUGLAS—" I obtrude. my self unwillingly upon the House for the purpose of im pressing upon Noble Lords the imperious necessity for prompt and vigorous measures. At a period ar knowledged to be without parallel, we have now been for some weeks confessedly without a Govern ment. I cannot by any means concur in the inter ; pretation put upon the paper by the Noble Earl (Moira), but I coincide entirely with my Noble Friends near me, that it would have placed them in a situation where they could not conscientiously act, ' and which, if they had consented to have held, ' would have been equally unconstitutional and impo ' litic. The opittion to which. I have come has been I clearly expounded by my Noble Friends, and until further investigatic.n at the proper time convince me . to the contrary, t shall continue to hold it. In the pr.:sera condition of affairs something oeght to be done, not only for the country, but for public men, and it is Oue to the Noble Marquis that a speedy ex planation should be afforded. I will not myself sup gest any particular day for the djscussion of this very interesting subject, but I would recommend that some Noble Lard, acquainted with the engagenients of the Noble Marquis, should name a period that he imagines will be convenient. I will not detain the ! House longer than to make a single remark upon the probability that the Noble Marquis was actuated I only by a wish to conciliate in the offer he was structed to make, and which was refused, according to my views, for the most solid and indispnsible reasons. I confess, that it never appeared t" me I likely that the Noble Marquis, whose political opi talons on nearly all subjects were so opposite to those of my Noble Friends, should be able to effect that union of parties and sentiments, which, at the same time that it is so desirable, it is so difficult to procure." The Duke of ATHOL.—" I had not, my Lords, ' the honour to be present in the House when the ex- I pression, an explanation of which has this bight been given, was employed ; but when it reached my ears I immediately conceived that it had been hastily uttered, and that It was impossible in times like' these that personal animosities could agitate a British ' breast. At present, I think further discussion would only be productive of injury, and had I been', in my place on a former uright, I would have depre cated then, as I do now, the discussion into which we have been led. Ido not trouble the House often with making speeches, but I trust that I shall not on that account he the less forward to devote my life and fortune to the service of my country. I own that I heard with sorrow what fell from a Noble Earl (Moira), which, in my .humble opinion, was calcu lated only, by promoting debate, to foster the evil he was anxious to destroy. For my own part, when. ever the Prince Reg ent, exerci'iug the duties of Ma jesty, shall have formed an Administration compe. I.teut to the .discharge of their. 1 -- shatt never be a caviller for particular men or particular I measores, being willing to support both the one and the other, when the object is the prosperity and wel ; fare of the State. I shall neither join. the party ou the one side or the other, but shall support those 4 ! men whose wish is to save their country. lam teas dy to admit that there are men on the other side of the House, able from their talents, and willing from their disposition, to join in so landahlean under taking, and I. trust that their assistance will be ob rtained to extricate us from the perils,„reql or imagi i nary, by which we are encompassed. God forbit it I should not be so. I am 'no party man, 'and for SO, years I have supported with zeal and • Odelity our I King, and the best parts of our - Conititution ; in I these sentiments I have risen frasm my ..oradle, and in these sentiments, I toast, I shall ,descend into Imy grave. My principle object in rising was to de. precate further discussion, more particularly at this moment, when the public feeling is alive, and which I can only inform- the nation, that no termination j had yet been formed. Under such circumstances, I trust that the negotiations will lie suffered quietly to ! proceed, that an arrangement satisfactory to ell I may be accomplished. I have no place to seek, no favour to ask, I speak only as a British subject, on tke broad feeling of 'love to my King, and safety to my country." Lord BOIL! NG DON—" My Lords, having the ho nour to Wait the habits of friendship ,with the No ble Marquis who has been -alluded to, I think it right talthough Lhavi had no communication with him elisql the 'llabietlt)l'Partfcularly after what has fallen' Irvin the Noble Duke respecthtg the expressions • . . ...~:~ ::_ --. used by my Noble Friend, of r dreadful per. o ,i I t animosities,' to state to your 'Aids:lips my firm r , l ll _ viction, that the expression alluded to dropp,ll f r ," my Noble Friend inadvertently. Certain I am, tiir t t It, never was in the slightest degree intended to apply to that hi g h aut h or i ty on whose part it h• I - s o justly and properly di-clairneil • and I am fully tisfied that it was not inteitded to apply to any in, dividual, but was really inadvertently drop,, a d had }.d etioldeantcot he tmoment. pre r i y u d N i - c ' e ) i s ) l e a i n i t i y a • y N h o a b y l e e Ilikes ) but I am satisfied that thi , re did not, nor itip. exist, on the part of any individual, any thing personal animosity; nor did my Noble Friend J o . tend to apply the phrase. My Lords, if I ;nal In permitted to say a few words as to the cause of the failure of the negotiation conducted by my Noble Friend, I do believe that its failure arose not from any causes that would have actually prevented its ultimate : success, but from my Noble Friend having in the first instance conceived too sanguine an idea of success.— ; A Noble Marquis (Douglas) has suggested the pro. priety of appointing a day for the discussion of the subject involved iu the circumstances which havelliea stated in this House. It is not for me to state to your I Lordships what would be a proper course of proceed. lug upon such an occasion, but I am thoroughly con vinced that my Noble Friend (the Marquis Welles ley) would hail the day of such a discussion, wheu Ibis whole conduct in this transaction would be be ; fore your Lordships, with the greatest satiifactiou.— The Noble Marquis (Douglas) has, however, made an observation, in which I cannot agme, that success could not be expected in an application made by my Noble Friend to those with Whom be essentially JR'. fered on political subjects, and whe were; as the No. ble Marquis expresses it, political enemies. My Lords, I cannot at all agree in this observation ; p No lied bl , e Friend eed en e a rri n i d r l e t i h y e u N po o n ble on Lord e great t t p o o w in ho t, n heal,. t i tecon. ciliation of a numerous class of his Majesty's subjects, and upon other points it does not appear to me, that there were any thing more than technical difficulties `that stood in the way of a satisfactory arrangement between my Noble Friend and the Noble Lords al luded to." The Marquis of DOUGLAS said a few words in explanation, but which no could not distinctly col. lea. The LORD CHANCELLOR..- 46 My Lords, I am so strongly convinced of the impropriety of con. tinning this discussion, particularly when there is no question before the House, that I shall feel it my duty to mew° an adjournment, or at least (there be. ing some Bills to coma under the consideration of the House) to move that this House do, at its rising, ad journ till Monday. I have heard, however, with great satisfaction,'the Noble Lord 4eringdon) state, that the expression used by the Noble Marquis, rrt now present, of dreadful personal animosities, does not apply to any individual whatever. Had there been any question under discussion which involved this point, I should have hearl all that might have been said by any Noble Lord upon this subject, meaning myself, at the conclusion, to lave Inuit dis tinctly disclaimed, on the part of myself and all those individuals whom I know, any feelino whatever of anrmosity. And to prove, my Lords, that I entertain t, feeings of animosity towards the No ble Marquis (Wel.esh.y), who is not •iow present, I I do most earnestly entreat. your Lordships not to pro reed in this discussion in the absence of that Noble Marquis. My Lords, upon a subject in which the xpressions used bj t 'net Noble Marquis form so pro minent and material a part of it, I do earnestly hope !that your Lordships wilt think it proper not to pro ceed further in this discussion, when that Noble Marquis is notipresent." The discussion here terminated. sim.v Nr • :.13TORS. The Earl diaiatokitbilt presented a Bill for' the Relief of 1 !solvent Debtori in England, after a few words from the Earl of Moira and Lord Holland, was read a first time, and• ordered to be printed ; as was also a Bil; presented by the Earl of Lauderdale, for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors in Ireland. 1 ;;y The Earl of HARROWBY pres-nted a Bill for the better support and maintenance of Curates, which was read a nest time, and ordered to be printed.— Adjourned till Monda). HOUSE OF COMMONS. Papers were presented at the Bar by a person from the Office of tit,: Commissioners of Public Records. Mr. Irvine presented Accounts of the value of Goods export ed up to the latest period. General GASCOI[i/SE gave notice of his intention to move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend an Act of last Session, for repairing Dublin Harbour. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that on Monday next Itesivonld =b asil a mogul) tespeeting the revenue and folitical arrangetocots 14 the Province Of Oude. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS. Mr. I.iGON brought up the Report, when ' Sir JOHN NEWPORT rose and referred to the dilemma in which the House was likely to be placed. They must all feel reluctance to as sume the appearance of interfering in the exercise of the Royal Prerogative, and yet they had on the other hand a duty to discharge to the country, and a con stitutional principle to-support, that of suffering no public measure to be takea without'seeing that there existed a responsible author. He hoped that it was not impossibla.on this occasion to draw a correct line ,of distinction, in such a manner as 'nightenable dicta ati once to render justice to all parties. The Custom house Duties'. Bill would not expire until the 50t July, and the new Bill would probably be tic ''more than a continuation of its predecessor. It was his intention, therefore, not to oppose the Resolu tions of the Committee at.any of the presions stages. .Ample time would thus be furnished for aecomplish . ing the object of forming an efficient Government adequate'to meet the difficulties and situation of the country ; but should this natural expectation be still disappointed, the house, he trusted, wad then feet ',it its duty to resist any farther grants. Mr. W. PQLE rose only to state the pleasure he felt in acquainting the Hon. Baronet, that the Cu:- tom Duties would not be this year augmented. Colonel BASTARD declared that therioappeared to him less hop than ever of constituting a vigoroi,s and efficient Government, unless the Wiese Wet , " Iv . solved to interfere. [Hear, hear!] lie could not believe that the feelings of the country or itsVondi - Hon, internal or external ) could have been faithfully :~;~r~