The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-02-04 00:00:00

It I I ' • 4 •• 4 • • in ' • ' I I • • • r • • • • • N 1 . • •• t I ~~ *ation of the Established Church. [Hear, hear Indeed, Gentlemen who were now most eager for those natural rights, called that epoch in our history, " the glorious Revolution," and that Revolution provided those safeguards for our Civil and Reli g ious Liberties. Experience had taught our ancestors that. two sorts of Religion in the State were not congenial to its safety. It remained with the advocates of the Catholics to chew the riecansitv therefore for altering this state of things. What ware now asked full participation of political power, because the Catho-: lic had full enjoyment of his religious opinions and' ' protection of property. The Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman then commented on the degree of influence which the Priests of the Catholic per- suasion exercise over their flock—the blind subniis. sion of that flock to their pastors—the influence, dangerous as it was, of a foreign power over their spiritual concerns, especially when that . power is at present under the dominion of France. This was the opinion, he observed, of the best friends of the Catholics, and he instanced the opinion of the Chan cellor of Oxford in his Letter to Lord Fingill,to show that the influence was dangerous ; an opinion which had not been promulgated by the "bigoted cham pions of intolerance and persecution," but by - the leader of the Catholic advocates. He deprecated the idea, that taking the sense of Parliament was the way to allay the irritation, or that keeping alive the ex pectancy of concessions which tha public interests would not allow,-was the best mode of securing the tranquillity of the State. The concessions, if grant ed, would, instead of producing the effect desired, engender discouttnt and disunion in the two Govern ments, on account of the difference in reli g ious opi nions. It was the very nature of man, and so would remain until that nature was altered. The subject of these political differences was, as the Noble Lord bad very emphatically said, " the stepping stone to ambition." The Catholics, he believed, did not want a Catholic Secretary of State or a Catholic Chancd lor ; the main body were firmly attached to the unit 'ea empire. The number that would be benefited by the removal of the disabilities would be few in compa rison with the great body. Concession had been made and still demanded. The average of the Pro tostant subjects was, be observed, as five to one, and they were not disposed to part with their rights and privileges. In examining the question, it would be necessary to look to future consequences, if the re moval of the restrictions was to be granted.--- In the House of Commons one hundred Members were returned, and it was probable, that if Catholics were admitted to seats in Parliatn , :. , ', every Member from Ireland would be a C.•ho lic—[Hear, hear!l The silence of the British nation was not to he taken as a silent accps:eicetsce in the justice of the claims, bat as a conviction that they would not attend to them; for if the people en tertained a different opinion, the table .'f the house would he crowded with petitions. T!..• Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman at great length enforced the necessity for refusing to accede to the motion, in the apprehensitsen which lit entertained of the danger aris ing from concession, in the view which he had pre viously taken. The first change to be wrought was an alteration in the t u rbulence of the Catholics. The physical force of the people of that persuasion in Ire land was under the controul of the Priesthood ; a circumstance which might be taken advantage of for the worst of purposes. Besides, it was the nature of those who professed different religions, to eye elle • another with jealousy ; they might as well est:wct that two stars would keep their course iu the. same sphere. After some complimentary rem: , sks upon the conduct which the Legislature had hitherto adopt ed towards the Catholics, and the attention with which they had always considered their claims, he expresed a hope,that neither they nor their advocates would suppose that Parliament was to lesiutimidated iuto compliance by repeated and frequent applica tions, but would look to a cool and deliberate exer cise of judgment as their best dependence, and most effectual advance to success. If they adopted a con-. duct of this sort, their claims, as far as was consist ent with the safety of the state, would be granted almost by acclamation. But let them shew what securities they would give, let them state when they would stop in their demands, and allow for those points on which the Protestants would insist—a Protestant Throne, the security of their•civil estab. lishments and religious liberties. _ _ _ Mr. CANNING said, that lialiwg the misfortune to be one of those prisons whom the Noble Lord who opened the deb !te marked out to the peculiar"disap probation of the House and of the Country ; having the misfortune to he one of those who could not go the entire length of granting the claim of unlimited concession, being determined against Toting for such claim, hat being determined much more against sane tioning by his Tote the principle recommended by his Right lion. and Learned Friend; t. principle which would go to shut the door against the hopes of the Catholics, and though not expressly contended for, vet consequently and necessarily to lead to the re enactment of those penal statutes which had once disgraced our legislation. Being unforttnately one of those persons, thus circumstanced, he wished to trespass for some time on the attention of the House,' - while he stated his candid sentiments upon this great' question. [Hear, hear He could not avoid ye. gretting deeply that it was brought forward now ; he regretted it from an opinion, which the speech of his Right Honourable Friend-was not calculated to di minish, that it must noyrbe discussed with a degree of passion and animosity unbecoming the occasion ; but at the same time he lamented its introduction, he was somewhat consoled by the reflection, that it had fallen into the hands of his Noble Friend, whose principles and. talents so well befitted him for the task, and who bad discharged that task in a manner so agreeable to the opinions of his friends, so flat tering to himself, and so, deserving of the favour, the approbation, and the admiration of the House of Commons. [Mar, hear!] . .Agreeing with his No ble Friend in some points, and differing from him in others, he shouldptate his agreement with all the warmth which neurally proceeded from respect and esteem ; and le hoped that he should state the topics in which be differed . from him, with that tetoper and moderation which should mark 'his regret, while he maintained his principles. His Noble Friend had set out with stating, that some transactions which oc curred in the course of the last summer, had in. glanced him to briug forward the motion then under THE STATESMAN._ their consideration ,• but if that motion was intended to embrace the conduct of the Government, and to pronounce upon its interference as an interference contrary to law, he (Mr. C.) was prepared to give it a complete negative. At the same time, ,he was not i pcepared to state,. a priori, that the Act to which reference had been so often made, was intended to operate against such meetings as those of .the Catho lic Committee; but being advised that it was so by the Law Officers of the Crown, he thought that Go vernment would have taken upon themselves a most grievous responsibility, if, in defiance of such ad vice, they stood aloof from the proceedings, and shut their ears against the representations of those who watched over • the law, and who complabled of its infriegetnent and violation. With regard to the transaeitoos that followed this intimation to the God vernmont ; so far from calling for the motion, they rendered it inexpedient, for the mom* of all was, tnat the matter was in a state of legal process [Hear, hear!]. He could not think that any thing had I I happened, from the beginning of those differences up to the present moment, which called upon the House to set to Ireland the fearful example of an interfer ence upon the part of the Legislative Authority with the natural and proper course of the judicial law. [Hear, hear!] He should oppose the proposition • for going into a Committee when that was the ob i • yet, or when it could be mistaken for the object of t the Legislature—[hear!] , He would allow that the bare fact of having acted according to law, did not go to prove a proper purpose in the minds of the , persons so conducting themselves ; on the contrary, he saw many cases in which the bare letter of the law was lamentably deficient as a moral rule or a political precept but would they call for a Committee to examine into the motives of Go vernment ? or if they did call for such a Com mittee, would it be possible to avoid introducing another party, as well as the Government, the party of the Catholics themselves, whose 'conduct could not be contemplated without some reprehension? [Hear !].--Ife was aware that in coming tOthe dis cussion of this question, in which the feelings and passions of men were so warmly interested, without adopting, in some measure, the violence of a par tizan, was appearing to great disadvantage, and embarking in a cause without any great likelihood of pleasing either party ; but such a clisadvautage he was not afraid to meet. if he knew his own heart, de ; came to the present question uninfluenced by such motives as either power or popularity could suggest • he sought not the triumph of either party, but the trauguillitv, the security, and the happiness of the whole. Much had ban said of the understand ing entered into at the time of the Union. An un derstauding there certainly was, though not ex pressed by the Legislature, that whenever the Ca tholic Claims were brought forward in that House, they should be candidly, distinctly, and dispas sionately discussed. The Catholics were given to understand, that though under their own separate, and resident Legislation, surrounded with the. local passions and prejudices that unfortunately ex islet" in their own country, the subject of their re- ! quests could not be coolly deliberated ; yet here, where local feelings • did not act, and where the prejudices against them were comparatively tempe rate, they might reasonably expect that sort of di 3. cussion which alone could lead to a rational and enlightened decision ; but now that that time was arrived, that the Union .was accomplished, and the question was opeb to a cool and impartial considera tion, his Right Honourable Friend had insinuated priuciples which must shut the door against their ex pectations. He agreed with his Noble Friend, as to the great importance of the subject, but he thought his Noble Friend did not agree with him, as to the mag- . ititude of the difficulties that encompassed it ; but whatever difficulties might be entertained as to the I view which his Noble Friend had taken of it, his Right Hon. Friend had done much to simplify the question, and to remove the difficulties that sur-j rounded it. If, according to him, the only conside ration was, whether they should return to former disabilities, or whether they should go on, he could have no doubt as to the side upon which he should vote. Indeed, when he looked to the state in which Ireland now stood, with a great population, growing daily in wealth and intelligence, aspiring from what I they had already tasted of freedom, to wish for more, and proceeding in a natural gradation, from the accomplishment of much, to the desire and the ambition of greater. When he looked to this situa- I tiou—a situation to which they were raised from a condition in which no class of people had ever be fore been placed in a Christian country, he could not agree that it was wise to exclude them from the pale of the Constitution. Since the period of their humiliation, they had disclaimed many tenets : once imputed to them, or perhaps he should not have reprobated so strongly as he "was inclined to do, the isotolic doctrine of his Right llonourable Friend. His Right- Honourable Friend had said, the' more the Catholic was restricted, the more genet he became. This probably was true, but it was a truth which might lead them too far. It seemed to approach the old adage, that " dead men tell no tales," for it must be granted, that the man in whom the social passions were extinguished, was likely to be quiet I enough. [Hear, hear, hear .f] But did his Right Hon. Friend really think that such a course was politic? Did he think' that, having removed the chain from the Catholic, we should leave a link be hind to remind him that he once was fettered! that having broken off the bonds with which he was once surrounded, we should leave a brand behind, to de uotethat he was not always free? Was this to legit late Sn the spirit of wisdom, or was it not rather to' adopt a headlong and precipitate violence, disgrace fill to the character, as it must be injurious to the interests of the country ? But were they to sup pose that circumstances had, changed the nature of the disabilities under which the Catholics formerly laboured, and that that which was once so essentially necessary to the security of the State, should now be cancelled, as being useless? For his part; he could not admit such an apology for the past. He could net conceive any state of society in Which such re strictions could be justified., ' He could not approve of such means of producing quiet. He could not give his voice for propping.up a state by dissociating human nature so completely, and violating all the principles of Government, both, in a political and moral view.a . Excuses might, certainly, have existed then , which aid not exist now, for those Who would defend, not the system, but the fragments of the system ; nut the machine, but the remnants of a machine, broken and scattered in those latter times by the growing liberal ities of the. human mind. The onto lay on those who recommended such perverse .littlustry, to show upon what principle it was necessary to show to fu ture ages what that system was.—{hear, hear!) — His Right Hon. Friend heel argued the question as if It was solely a religious one, but he should argue It, he felt it his duty to argue it in that House upon a political ground alone. His Right lion. Friend had said that he would not go into the doctrine of Transubstantiation, or the adoration of Saints, or other mysterious points But why did he not go into them ? Because he took them for granted, and ar gued on them without sunnitting to the inconveni ence of proving them. When the Legislature select ed those doctrines, it was only as a means of marking I the particular sect against whom they thought proper to direct their provisions. The Parliament of Great I Britain could never adopt the idea of becoming Con ' troversionists ; they never could have intended to argue with Priests and Bishops upon the doctrines of their faith. He knew that some ,Gentlemen were fond of talking of the sufferings of Ireland in remote I and almost unremembered periods ; of its being treated as a cottqured country from time immemorial, and injured and oppressed in centuries long past ; but he would not go so far back to count its wrongs, any more than he would look back to the Norman Conquest with respect to this country, for the pur pose of complaining of the Curfew—{A laugh.]— But part of the way he must go back, to find the be ginning of the restrictions now under consideration. NV at then was the state of Europe after the reforma- I lion had taken place ? There arose at that time two teas more influenced by the zeal of sectarism than by , the love of country. The Catholics and the Protes tants were attached each to their own persuasion, without regard to those sacred ties which bind us to our native climates, and the Catholics of this nation were more allied to the Catholics of any other nation 'than to their Protestant fellow subjects who were children of the same soil. Under those circum stances, regulations might be necessary which should exist in no other case. In what country of Europe were there not religious struggles, though such strug gles should not be considered common to all other times, as had been stated, nor arising out of any cause inseparable fiesta our nature. Of those who contended that they were, he would ask, did history bear them out ? Was it true that the fourteen Can- Itons of Switzerland, tousisting of Catholics, and other Dissenters, had come to a generous resAution to bury all religious animosities 'and, was it true, I that from that time they went on with perfect politi cal agreement ?—[ilear !] His Right Hon. Friend Imight say, that though this might have been the ease , with small States, there was a di ffi culty when they • came to make the application of it to great ones.— ' The discussion of that principle would lead into mi nute enquiry, and the instance he had already quoted must go against the generality of the argument. But ! what if the same agreement had existed in another Icountry ? What it' it had existed in France from the period of the edict of Nantz, down to its sabse , quent revocation ?—Let them look to the words of Peat famous edict, they would find it declar ing. that for the purpose of stilliug all complaints, all subjects, of whatever religion, should be capable lof holding offices without taking any other oath than to be faithful to the King. They would find that Henry IV. proceeded (for he was speaking of no less a man) to provide for the filling of all of fices in the state, without regard to the distinction of sect, or to the prejudices of religious jealousy. He did not say that they were bound to follow. the ex ample of France. That admission would come ra ther oddly after the new philosophy. But when they had before them the opinion of the greatest Mo narch of that nation, in times when he had not barely to calculate upon possible resistance, but to encoun ter open opposition; when they had his opinion in such circumstances, that the best course, or mode of proceeding, was conciliation; it was impossible to ! despise such an authority ; and looking from his judgment to the practical consequences of his plan, it was still more impossible to despise that measure, ! which placed Sully at the head of the Council, and sent Schomberg, Turenne, •and Saxe, to share the I glories of the field. [Hear, hear!] It was im- ; possible not to approve of such conduct in that Mo. I starch, whese splendid Court was the envy and the terror of all -Europe, at a moment when the world ' seemed to labour under a religious dotage, and when he himself was under the influence of an intriguing mistress. Who, it' he was asked whether he would wish to live in that grand epoch, or in any subse quent epoch of that country, would not readily and eagerly, and without hesitation, place his finger on the former ? Our Government had found its policy at all times in lending assistance to the Reformation ; that assistance led to the interference of the Catho lics in one affairs, and every thing which was done against the Protestants on the Continent, was visited in penal statutes upon the Catholics of Ireland at home. He did not recommend this system ; he did not approve of it ; from the period of the revocation • of the edict of Nantz, and when the Revolution in this country had raised her freedom to its perfection, her restraints were doubled upon Ireland, and every succeeding Legislature seemed to vie with the other in a contest to make the situation of Ireland more slavish and degraded ; and begging pardon of his Right Ilonourable Friend, tranquillizing too—(A laugh.)—Looking to the yew' 1685, when the edict of Nantz was revoked, we saw our shores covered with a flying Clergy—tying from persecution. What Clergy? Protestant—flying from what perse cution ? From the,persecution of Catholic France ! And this we saw visited upon Ireland. In a century after we again beheld our shores covered with a flying Clergy, flying from persecution. What Clergy? Catholic. Flying from what persecution ? From the persecution of' Atheistical France ! And this we were again called upon to avenge upon tha - Catholic population of Ireland.—[Hear, hear fl —But 'were they so blind as to confound the cases ? Were they so Nadas to suppose that the same remedy was ap plicable to each, if indeed it was justifiable in either? The mitigation of the Popery laws which after wards took place was- a warning of a change, though his Right Honourable Friend was not in a situation to lilt 'his warniug voice agiinst it.— .~ theHe knew irish that cat h 0 ;1 1 ieerse as were h a ~sionieesheti obtained c , e i p re ais - ic -5a 5:,:,,,,d,.. s privileges () t h ihtihgehrltyo honourablegranted to them the udderiit.lhaelittb.ity7Bi.;3- Country, and in times when they were raticiycotarisi.ceeex,,ia.uitii.ilds circa. ; ,. from our might tr be w e t a r k e t e i e t s e s fro m a tl e m e i r i ta o i b e ta d i e n t e rr d ee t .11 ic h Ireland; we be t h f facilitated r b l our j us tice.. 'e(tid l'fi l then situation m a believed it l it e vlle in to w ~. dat t i r sel u kea e lliiicia t g l .i i i at those were not concessions to the Irish i' Protestant, pf9reret o nEltlog lah, u 3id i s i o , ' C l ear ': ii:srollitiiic.ewhn Brethren,i part, , d .. boons from , rams t was trueff:eldirctsoft wererl theoo mtfi thence, r rt e ose Irish t eg r o a m d a ti e mihtate ; ti t i i i d ttyh ,e tbhceeort voluntarilyaepi concessions privileges s v ni i a_o l : rt:sligtsi nut rotvev fair o e tl h r v e e g t c o r a a t i n i i i t i Silica 179 I,nothing material h ad )e 17 , r e , i l i d ;ranted one n tetltot , l aie , j , :. up to the present period; it ,7 tam that what zi s ,i l li i i.i n ei u ,,sr l d ki ei illivifeli,vv, in the science held u o n f l ets numbe r s he . had said, that if the Catholics were few, it was wit worth while to grant their claims, and if inaaw is was not safe. [A laugh.] It was the opinion of many, that a temperate discussion could not he had till the Union had taken place. That time • was now arrived, but as if obstacles were ever to be thrown in the way of the argument, the Cathy,. lies in a late iustaace had been ill-advised en oug h tA , • put forward among the nunila , e of their claims the repeal of the Union—a repeal of the Union (es. claimed Mr. Canning)—a dissolution of the tw o kingdoms—a dissolution of the heptarchies ! But if the proposition was not efficient to the purposes of good, it was efficient to the purposes of evil. hi de. ference to the Honourable Gentleman who had given notice of the motion for that repeal, that if Parlia. meat were even to entertain it, and if he by his do. quence was to prevail hi carrying it, the situation of the Catholics with r e spect to the objects of their am bition, would be materially worse. It would be in. jurioui to the Catholic interests, and it would be high treason against separate Ireland. If a man were to set about devising an impediment to the Cu. tholic Cause, he could not succeed better than by knitting those two demands together ; but with re spect to the wishes of the Catholics for an ciliate. meat of the privileges they at present possessed, he had always cousidered them rational. Would aay man who had a right to vote, not wish in time for the right to ft? Was it to•be believed, that Pasha. meat had granted him the one without a view to the ultirnategranting of the other? Was it to lie believed that they would have opened . to them the bar, if thee intended eternally to shut up from them the avenues to the bench ? Was it to be believed that they would have permitted them to acquire property, and to act in all the subordinate parts of the political system, if they intended, with his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, eternally to exclude them from office? They were referred to the Revolution in France, and no man was more inclined to refer to it than he, for es. ' amples that ought to be ai•oided and detested. Lei ! them not shut their eyes to the body politic of France, which had rendered it susceptible to the poison of Revolution. Let them not forget that the existenco ! of unpopular and unjust'distinctions, which, without i i the policy of the Popery Code to extinguish the cis. ! ing spirit from that energy of action to which it mot ' have tended, exhibited plinciples equally objectiona. ble. If he was to divide the right of voting from right of sitting, without any view to their ultimate I connection, he did not know whether he would not I rather give the higher privilege, than refuse the lower; whether he would not rather give to a people of such high spirit, of such great powers of thinking, of such ' resources, of such energies and determinations, tho right to sit in Parliament, than a right to return their Members, with an iateotion of shutting them out lint ; the topmost round of their ambition. But it had been said that the great body of the people were not interested in this. Oh profound ignorance of human nature, not to know that the bare possibility ' of greatness called forth all the faculties of tire mind, : and all the greatness of the character!! To take the bar as an instance. Was it proper that, filled with Catholic lawyers, of great abilities, and great ta " fluence over the public mind, they should not be ad missible to the bench ? No man admired more than Ihe did the profession of the law. It nad giva tho country its greatest Legislators, and many of its Iproudest ornaments ; but supposing that profes 4 o n • to be degraded to a mere pecuniary pursuit, would not tthe profession be changed ? would not every maiil,J -: longing to it be changed ? They now must lookto war I not merely as a contingent evil,but as a perinanentatilir tion,as the very element in which we were 44 tO liVeltld die and have our being." Many Catholics were tit our army—but while we hoped for the 'best effects from their valour, should we say, that in no state, and under no circumstances would we recognize a '"native Catholic General ?—[Hear!] lie hoped that they would not come to such a tranquillizing vote. It would seem as lif they were afraid, ill case of a Catholic Chancellor or a Catholic Ge neral, that the Pope and Bonaparte putting their heads together, would influence them on behalf of the Catholic Church, against the Constitution. liii s might have been the case in times when the geogit pher might have taken the colours of the two reli gions for the description of all Europe; but Bona parte had preferred national spirit above the lord of sect, and looking to the map of Europe now, the! would find the same Bonaparte to be the eldestion of the Church, with Protestant Saxony his Ally, with Protestant Prussia at his foot-stool, and Anti-Cattle" Russia trembling its his toils. But there was still one spot in which his tyranny was resisted, on the sai": l . i i hold of the Inquisition.—lii Spain arid Portugal, 11 ! power o the cou f nt ß ri e e i s m o p f a : t h e e humbled, m ost i)igosstehdilePlat,peis‘tts,e, bling for the cause of Protestantism at home. Sure r l Y t w h e et o te ug a h l i t ie t s o , feet th a t w t h h e e u re fi fighting n g s e b el y e t side li e e ee fid e o e f t: our e t 0 C0 . 33 we s h o uld be sufficientlypl c d i n e urpo s ses s edCatholic 071 our low sepse s subjects s n where it existed, and not to fancy it to be found. We should not appear in the situail of men, who, amidst a mighty • s eek eis ellats,rattoav 0 , Tor baubles; we should not, under the pressure .1 • us of iwe present danger, cry " fire".to the transactions . ,e. . centuries ago ;- we should not stared upon the lta h' dap, of ancient errors, when the channels wee! th , • 4 re" '"the to calculate, in stupid amazement, the dialer ' where was n ~...toe^.11;1