The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-02-18 00:00:00

' I ¢. !• . •, .4; ;;'•... •; • Jr . ,ap4. PARLIAMENT. HOUSE Or LORDS. FEX. 17. to an Appeal from the Conrt of Session in Scotia/3C Lady reset Ker and Lady Mary Ker. siAers and cn-beiresses of the Dyke of Rozbti.rgh, r. Wauchn lie and others. Trustees, Ste. cruder his d raft ., ;If -Mr. Adam and Mr. Maronnochie were heats' for the Appals/its, and Sir likunuel Hominy a Inv ,word/ for the Reepondents. The LORD CHANCELLOR delivered his opinion in eon termite.. with the Judgment of the Chart of SesAell, wait* was affirmed by the House, thereby continuing the validity of the will of the late Duke of Ro burgh. The Irish Naval Stores Embezzlement Bill riled thro Comisi tine and iyas resportie es* d REVERSIONS. _ _ Earl GROSVENOR said he took the first oppor. trinity, on his return to town, of calling their Lord ships' attention to a subject, which, whatever others might think, he.considerod to be of great import? trace. Ile lamented that a Bill prohibiting the Grant ins Offices in Reversion had . been lost in the House of Commons, and he could not hut consider the decision as a great inconsistency. He was at a loss to conceive what arguments could have beets.urged to induce the rejection of such a measure. It surely 'could not have been argued that it was of too trilling a nature to deserve the attention of the House, for if it were of a trifling nature, why not pass a mea sure so consolatory to the.feelings of the people.— It could not surely hare been erred that the passing of it would heve engendered a difference between the two Houses' q Parliament, battiest that might ea- , sily have imen got rid 4 by agreeing to & temporary Bill, as in,a former instance. But whs.** might have been the.irgumenti on which the'rejlittion of such a Bill was founded, he could ;not hut consider it aideeply.te be lamepted, inasmuch `as the passing of the Bill would have been a first step - teivards the extinction of that system of corruption which un• happily prevailed, and would so far have gratified the just expectations of the people. The 'continuance of tjtopractice nting offices in reversion was great ly to. be 'deprecated, pregnant .as it was with .every species of undcrhand transactions. It was pro bable, however, that a Bill would come before their Lordships for suspending this practice for a li mited time; and he trusted that if such were the case, jbe . asspensiou would not be merely for a year, but for tenuity" . thirty, or even fifty years. If such should net he the object of . the Bill, he gave notice that he *meld propose to extend the suspension for a considerable period, , in order that they might not be celled upon to.constder it from year to year, mere. ly as a temporary measure. If such a Bill did not come before then. Lordships 'Within a reasonable time, he gave notice that it was his intention to pro. pose a measere of that description, AMER.ICAC Lord HOLLAND seeing a Noble Lord at the bead of the Foreign department, in his place, wished to ask of that Noble Lord, whether, in the present state of the aegociation with the United States of Ame- Mca, it would be improper to lay before the house such Papers, or at least that part of the Correspon dence which it was notorious had already met the p tblic e)e I He did not wish to make a motion for et correspondence in the negociation, unless it was the ttio of those who had the management of that viegeOlotios, that it would not be improper to corn menkate the correspondence, and he therefore wished to ascertain this fact, in order that he might give a short notice of a motion for such parts of the coy respand—ice as It might not be deemed improper to &omit, tt ,tieate. The Marvis WELLESLEY said he had not re ceived the commands of his Royal Highness the Prince Reg..nt, to lay any of the papers alluded to by the Noble Lord before the House. If the Noble lord. however, w ould give notice of a day fo r a mo tieq. spou the subject, he should then be prepared to state distinctly to the House, whether or not it would he ipproper to commepipate the correspon dence marwl for. Lord HOLL4ND said he was afraid be had peon misunderstood by Noble Lord. What he Wished in order to esielftaie whether he should &re a notice of Motion was, to know whether it would be im prowr to communieate any 1 , . rt of the correspor, denc.e., Witiseat having any extraordinary coatidence in Ministers; a confidence safer would of course be cone.ededltothem, namely, the they having the ma cagement of a negociation would.he th.' best judges whether it would be improper or not to communicate any part of the correspondence, It was with this view that he hiked the question. The Marquis WELLESLEY repeated, that he 4atl ng ;Tamen& from his Royal Highness the Vristce Regent to lay any of the correspondence before the Rouse, but Host if the Welds l e wd gare notice of a day for Lis Illation, be should then be prepared disr iitictly to itite his eliinlark' upon the subject, Adjounied tilt to 'vireos Obis day). - ROUSE` OF - ColAtkoNS. GENERAL SAHR&ZIN, 1 UM eneltßA.lirgitatea, that be Willi lifitipt a Petition ' from Gen. Sarrazin,praying fora Reward for some important in formation tomatunicatedby him to the Government of this Coon- ' , .Z./e•lttl"eting_thesstate of-tbe coast of France. 1, The sPEA'KER asked the Noble Lord if be had obtained the previa.* moment of the Crown—and being annvered in the ne 7 Pathe, he stated that by a Standing Order of the Haw, such a etition could not be entertained rill the recommend ation of the Pus n was obtained. • - *: The Lords' Act Amendment was reeds third *weed parted. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to knew whether certain Papers ' relative to the Omits of Admiralty, which were ordered to be' printed Really it month ago, were yet in readinessi Some coarenation thereupon took place between Mr. Whisr 7 ton and Mr. Brougham, which ended in an order for all the raperi produced on this subject to be immediately printed. Mr. BROUGHAM said be should move for a return of all the swab taken from the funds of the Droits of Admiralty with- in the last five years, and afterwards rcgoreti to thesefunds. ; • After - some conversation Frith the Chancellor of the F a g, Fhequer, the motion was agreed tormsd the return ordered, STATE OF THE NATION. Sir THOMAS TURTON gave notice that on Thursday 'e'e r pight tie should move for a cOmmittee en the Si Fie of QC Nor lion. EXCHEQUER BILLS, ‘ The Report of the Committee of Ways and Moue on eke FuuJiag Of Exchequer Bills was read and agreed 4D, apd o Bill ' it:dere - to be twought in accordingly. 1 ARMY ESTIMATES. Lord PALMERSTON wished to postpoise the consideration of the ArmyEstlinates till Friday next. lieubould in the mean time pritppe tisai the Ho u se go sn i p a Committee of Supply f„, h Ttf;r - Pil ° . .A 7 l' D'ltZgr'roinf,rt u litir , of:em or ber; la t ira l i t., #.4,.. ro c 5 . into g Cormarttee of Sopply l 0* hasp fs rutted *ow ly. HOUSE b COMMONS OFFICES BILL, tTAP Epfttirtqf the douse of Commas °Mai Sill iefi pe. ee Bill recommitted feels purism. of amendment, ip Fs ter4cped to be teecie to-aierror Oho tley), , • NOTTINGHA•I FRANIE BRF.ARERS. ... . - go till question for the second readjoi of the NViiirl l 44l rig4;ICT)994 Piil beiPg rill _n "!". • -4, AN. Mr. ABERCROMBIE, its the present planning situation of the Coonty of Nottingham, could have wished, instead of opposing, to have supported the measures of Administration; but, after the most mature co nsideration, he felt it altogether impossible to co p al( in voting for thia Bill. Every body felt 1 . the daeger'of a numerous body of men leagued to to the laws of the eoun ‘tryget,he'arrildn w ac h i e ive hrt °Pß v P eh s i i t tia bele defeated both the civil land the military power. This danger was the more tett:ming from the connection between the county of `Nottingham and other maeufacturing districts of the country. But however strongly he, in common with I others, felt this danger, he could not concur in the present Bill, without violating a most impprtant } principle in penal legislatnre—a principle which he had already had the good fortune more than once to join witha majority of the House in sanctioning.— ' The mildest character of the present Bill was, that lit would be ineffectual. They had been told that the riots had continued many months; that the Local Police had been aided by the efforts of the Lon don Police ; that rewards had been offered for . conviction; but that all the efforts of the 001 power, joined to the allurements of profit, and the assistance of a military force, had been found com pletely ineffectual; and that with all this powerful array, not a single convittion had taken place utt,. der 'the existing law. Now if the House had been told that any individuals had been convicted, and pit. niched with, transportion, but diatfrom theslightpess of the punishrelpt, . die motives of the unfortunate persons had bias &nod stronger than the dread of conviction, then he could conceive it might be proper to call upon the House for measures of greater se verity. No such statement, however, had ever been made'; and it was . merely the state of impunity which they were called on to redress. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Ryder) proposed for this purpose to make the offence capital. But how could this measure operate on persons in the situa tion of the unfortunate persons in question, among ' whom there had already been found to prevail such an uncommon degree of pnion, concert, and good I faith, if he might be allo*ed the expression, to one another, that not one of them had even yet been de tected. If impunity was an evil, the effect of this severe penalty would only be to afford a greater se curity against any chance of punishment, because it would afford the rioters an additional motive for ad hering closely together. The Honourable and Learnd Gentleman then went into some illustrations respecting the different probabilities ofcenviction der pain of death and transportation, and concluded, that the former merely decreased the chance of it.— The Members for the county had not expressed any warm approbation of the measure of the Right lion. Gent. ; but they wished, they said, to agree to any measure which might have a chance of restoring tran quillity. But he would ask those Gentlemen, how they could support a measure which would have the direct contrary effect to what they wished? After the body of information possessed by Ministers on this subject; he thought the present Bill displayed a great poverty of invention. Ile concluded with some observations on the distressed state of the cows• try, which he thought ought to 'take a deep pression on the House, and induce them to reconsi der those measures which had plunged the country into this dreadful situation. There were some Mints arising from the decay of trade, which it was yet in the power of the House to controul ; and they-might be assured, that while the cause of the evil remained in full force, all the remedies which they might apply would be found as unavailing as the prescriptions of a physician, directed merely to remove the outward symptoms of a disease instead of communitating health and vigour to the whole system. Mr. OItD (we believe) voted for the Bill. The Honourabl:. Captain HERBERT thought a Committee ought to have been appointed to enquire into the nature of the disturbances. He conceived the punishment of death would only render disco very more difficult. It had been stated, that the tenant had often connived a: the breaking of the frames in the cottages. Could not an action be brought against the t. ,ant f 4.1 the loss and if un able to pay might not imprisournont be resorted to ? If this connivance was the root of the evil, why was it not attempted to be struck a, ? if the law did not admit of this, why was a Legislatiye provision to that effect not, resorted to ? , - - Mr. jORN SMITH believed there was noexisting law for the protection of lace-frames, , and that beau tiful manufacture lay, therefore, completely out of the reach of the law. He supported the .present measure, not because he conceived it free from ob jection, but because'something must be done, and because if something was 'not speedily done, the mis- ALA,' might soon be beyond their power to remedy. —[lfear n-With respect to the causes of this mis sid.f., 42 awaked that this was not a favourable moment for enquiring into them, because by inch an enquiry at present, the evil would in all probability be increased. On this subject, however, he was ready to state his opinion, whenever a favourable opportunity for it should occur. He would merely state at that time, that the mother cause of all the disturbances was the decay-of trade; but whatever were the causes, whether just or unjust, the rioters ought first of all to be put down: The lion. Capt. HERBERT explained. Mr. LOCKHART justified the policy of an in. creased severity of punishment, as it might be hoped that when the wives and children and other connec tions of the rioters should come to hear of the dread ful penalty to which these men were liable, they might be induced and enabled to dissuade them from incur ring it. He said this measure was not an innovation OD the law of the country—legally speaking, this of fence upproached the highest which were known • it approached to the constructive levying of war. :He instanced a case mentioned by Sir Matthew It le, where some persons were even indicted f or b rae lag frames in London ; ab 4 1 1:10thCf empie 011 mos per• sons who were eaecisted jn ths reign of 4106.'4:give for destroying-meeting houses.i • ntended, he said, if the BM should' o into.* Ceiugittoe si tpro. Pose ' glut in 6 Val khi IPOODT N. 46114441. ø l a a— lonour. had mistaken the spoke,ser observed, that the 1h o l v VY had lN N just s o t b Mr. WROTTESLEY expressed his firm convic- able M r. Memb er W. thin that this Bill would rather than prom o t e retard, the object in view, the punishment of offenders. He question before the Howe ' which begged to be informed why, since the _Bth of the the existing law we re or were no t e ffect ual, not I" h e th er likelyffectual, but w h et 'king, not one offender had been prosecuted under ther the new law prop osed the statute which passed in that year. Ile contended , throughout he had fit ? and argued on on the authority of Mr. Justice Blackstone, that mises. On the nighttl • • when this hea erroneous pre. until other modes of punishment were found ineffec. the Chancellor of the Exchequer hadwas introduced d asserte t hat it fuel, death ought never to be inflicted. had not been bro he fug orwaad earlier , the hope 28th Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY stated, that the real that the f o rmer statute of the 2 ill of the King, question to be considered was, whether the Bill be. would be found effectual, without any new enact. Are the House would afford any remedy to the evil meut, and that finding themselves disappointed, C smplained of, which it was insisted it was necessary moment bad suggested, unwillingly, thi s me . ". 'lmmediately to correct. It would be necessary pre- In this statement the Right Honourable Ci " ' He. r intlenr u viously to examine what was the evil, and what was was contradicted by the feet, since tran qu illity u bad 'the remedy proposed. The evil was the destruction been Fettered, according to his own confession, fr. lel individual property to a great extent by a cos ten days before this Bill came into the H ouse . cote- . blnarion of persons who took effectual meatis to Sir A. PIGGOTT admitted, that if the abject of prevent evidence being procured for their convie. this Aet *ad been merest) , toextend the punishment,{ , Lion. A.gainst this crime a law already exists , _al _. transportation to the breakers of ifla f e- ranies, he though offenders are still found to put it at defiance. , should have given it his support, but it had an addi. Undoubtedly it was a monstrous disgrace to the itionalebleot, in which he could by no means concur country; but what prospect was there that the riots i TiZ• the.metking of both offences capital. lie can . would be suppressed, by converting a useless terror 1 6 011 4 the -House against 3 ielding to the geleiral in, of transportation into a punishment by death? The dignatioe'espressed against the perpetrators of these continuance of disturbances must arise from one of iheinebt crimes, by passing a measure which his Hon. two causes, either, Ist, that the authors were able , a ' Friend (Sir S. Hominy), had shewn to to destroy, or smother all testimony which would , CO . -futile. lie begged to know if it w est , 4. lead to their conviction ; or, secondly, that there' ._ _4, 4.. 1 _2; t sieve tjaYetts 1781 4 the I .. former st a tute was a determination on the part of those to whom the l'ag„ Per proteededhpo n in ...single instance ? eutocutiren of the law was entrusted, not to put it in * if inberettne, until the old law were tried, how foece. Making the offence capital would certainty t.kenitiait be .ascertained that the mow was neoessaryi have the effect Of increasing both these causes, s i nes , ,I lie contended that, it would , be an idle . waste of time there would be an additional inducement to destroy i for the House to- go into a Committee on a measure evidence, and to neglect the law. The great evil to I which would ultimatelybe thrown out as wholly int. be complained of was, that the law had been con. I deqnate to theobject in view. yerted into a mere dead letter, that it had been made' Mr. Secretary RY . DER. did not wish to occupy th e only a lifeless scarecrow, from which custom bad re- ' , time of the House at any length, }{ter the ample oh moved even the terror that might originally have been servations which had fallen from him on a preceding I felt on beholding it. If, indeed, the statute of the everting; but there were two or three of the argot Ittith Gee. 111. had been duly enforced, and these , ments used by the Honourable Gentleman ppposite,te iniquitious proceedings had been persevered in, in 1 which he should briefly advert. It had been proposed I defiance of it, then indeed there might be some plausi-i that a clause, should be introduced to enact a similar ble ground at least for the measure before the House. I punishment to what was already enacted by 'the • a.Btls As the Bill had only been delivered since the lof his present Majesty. And what would be the meeting of the House, the Gentlemen wlo had effect of such a clausel—llow would it appear ? spoken on the contrary side, might not have had time Whereas, it must say,by an Act of Parliament passed to read it, or they would have seen that it•was in the 28th year of the Reign pf Geo, 111. the pu in no way calculated to remedy that which the 1 nishment of transportation was annexed to the offence whole nation so loudly exclaimed against. One of breaking stocking frames, aud whereas that hey Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lockhart) had said, that I has been found hitherto ineffectual, in that parti. the Nottingham rioters were guilty of a crime little I cuter case; it is now enacted as a further protection of another branch of manufacture that the same short of constructive treason. It was un d ou bt e dl y • E true that a general combination to break all the penalty be inflicted upon all persons destroying lace frames might be so construed, and perhaps the late frames. Where would be the wisdom of sod A legis, outrageous proceeding deserved a title little less 'se- lative p rovision ?— He had been asked what chance vere ,• but on examining the Bill itself, it would be there was, in making the offence capital, that its fre t found that it was not at all calculated to operate gooney would be diminished; bat he bad said re- • against such conspirator.—The four objects to which peatedly, that be was net prepared to affirm, as a the punishments were directed, related only to the , matter " certaiarYt that any d immution would ensue. wilful and malicious proceedings of individuals, and by 1 It was for thelegislatnre, however, to a ll the experi it a refractory apprentice who broke even an instru-ment ; and it was merely as an experiment, that the ment belonging to his master's frame, would be liable present Bill had been introduced, as ag attempt to to suffer capitally, and nothing was left to the mercy I invigorate t he Exe c u tiv e G o v e rnment. W hile ad vert{ ug to the exertions of that Executive Govern, l of the prosecutor, since it was imperative upon him to lay an information immediately before a Magis, milt, he would seize the opportunity of expressing trate. Centime"' on the other side, no doubtthought his satiefaction at the testimony which had heel borne that they were supporting a measure to secure the to its activit y and zeal, by smell Oentleinew on the , future tranquillity of Nottingham and the surround.' opposite side of the House; a testimony which he ' ing counties from these illegal combinations ; but on prized th- more, as coming from those who pro. [ looking at the wording of the Bill they would find . fessed themselves to be spot disposed to epprove Of themselves grievously disappointed, for the net, in-jany of the measures which himself or his colleagues stead of being sp read wide eniauel" to secure all; I might employ. He would do justice, however, at perhaps, would have recommended that offenders [ should not have been prosecuted, until it were I i the same time, to the Magistrates of Notting , am, could only catch a very few of ta offenders. He, ' who had discharged their &T in a most exemplary manner. Nor bad the Magistrates of the County clear that a combination existed, by several frames I been less zealous,. though not deriving the same sac having been previously broken, or unless three cess, because their vigilance was necessarily employ er four men in concert committed the act. In every ed upon a larger district. With regard to the present i respect this measure was totally inadequate—it did Bill, the only proper vie* in which it could be consi t little credit to the Legislative skill of Ministers, and I dered by the house was, he apprehended, to regard if passed would a disgrace to the p roceedin g s' of ' be ce it as a temporary remedy for an evil that must be p u t the noose. He recommended, weeurn such a hasty I down some how or other. The question, indeed, step were taken, that some examination of the ground , was one of vast importance: it was one which af ' should be made, and that a Committee should be rap- , fected all the manufacturing interests of the cyan pointed to make enquiry into a subject on which the try ; and if the House should consent to the se- House actually knew little or nothing. What Hon. I coed reading of the Bill, they would consc i e n, Member, let his connections be what they might, ! tiously discharge their duty to that country and could say that he knew the cause of these riots ;I to themselves. lle was asked, whether, when whether they originated in malice on the part of the I passed, it would facilitate the detection of offend, ers ? This he was not prepared to affirm ; and if, workmen against their masters for ill-treatment, or I from a determination to destroy machinery, which indeed, no offence could be made capital, till it was roved that the Bill which was to declare such of lessened the proportion of manual labour ? whether I P any, and what combinations had been entered into, , fence capital would facilitate the detection of offen and what subscriptions had been raised to resist theiders, it would be impossible to reach many offenders efforts of the Legislature ? These were questions of ,at all. The chance, in the present measure, was, great importance, and to proceed without informs"- ;that men would be deterred from the commission of ' t I ion upon them would be highly unbecoming the dig- a certa in crime, when they saw that the Legislatu re • udy and wisdom of the House. had taken up the matter in a grave and solemn me iner. Whatever occasion there might be for such . Mr. BATHURST said, that after the long con- : amendments and additional clams es might be pro. ti e = of these disgraceful scenes in the midland , posed by others (and he had Ire doubt the Bil l was ;lifter the capitation- of thecommoft -este- I susceptible of imprnvenvent", be thought tat if its my ; after the impatience universally expressed by I second reading was now rejected, consequences , the country, that Ministers should bring forward I would ensue to the country, 'of a nature pot easily some more efficient measure than the existing law ,to he anticipated. [Hear, hear ! from the Ministerial Benches];" Colonel BASTARD *Mel to know how nay and after the testimony on all sides borne to the I person could venture to affirm that Government had unceasing exertions of the Executive Government, I I not been supiae ? The insurrection had cont inual it was a matter of greet regret to him to observe for four months, and nothing had been done O[N - - the manner in which this Bill had been received I tually to repress it. He could not, therefore, join by many Honourable Gentlemen.—[Hear, hear! jin the praise of the Right lion. Gentleman, whose from the Ministerial benches.] The true point to' duty it was to have suppressed these riots. be decided was, whether the law, as it exists, is or Mr. 'WHITBREAD observed, that though be err- is not an adequate prevention of the crime complained tainly was not in the habit of defending the Kitigfi of ? If it were not, this measure was the fit resort Ministers, yet, from all he could collect on the tub- to prevent tie . commission of the crime, which was jest, and that too from those who were best able (4 the main obteetriot 'if it put a stop to the offence, ratify his inquiries, he was convinced that everything the enquiry whether It would make detection of it had been done by the Right Honourable Gearleinea mere or less' dlikelt, was entirely put aside. The which could be done. Stilt, however, he should ro:u Igrand principle of all criminal law was plena ad against the Bill being read a second time, bectuee lie paws, meta* ad omnes, and if the execution of a objected to its principle ; and because he did net *V would have the effect of deterring many, the oh - think it woo id produce those beneficial effects which ject would be attained; and certainly the crime now were expected. The Right Honourable Gentleman complained of , 'in point of enormity, could bear no said that riots took place notwithstanding•the Act twould comparison to bqrglary, or even to highway robbery. of 1788 ; peel be was convinced that the riots The House, •it should be recollected, was not in this still take place, notwithstanding the present re Act.— , stage called upon to approve the Bill in its present He saw no occasion for hurrying the seas L he form--all that *as-uked.was that it should be read Case was not sp urgent, as there *ad been now Plif" •- for some days ; but were it ever so he • . not think this the proper measure to Were he to bring in a Bill upon this occa shoeld rather enact, that is great difficulty "nwni in bringing offenders to iustics. some. risioos were nerressarj. lie inv....awe ~ ~.. .. see a clitan . , , fo r . is ' fifes Filer sh (ill; bi tlt • *se yOunsel ' imi• a second time, prepeistor'y to its commitment, w en. in the county for . any mare outdid,. davits ?eight be added, or any ' urgent, he did not hfr. 11#44 11 11..Qf *eery, supports/10M,, 14 isecessary. aklissadema tad. - At present the 'meet it. Were he ad instamsed theipsOnfteet which was by ad :th r. eAmes no *nth delay as s iou t he should rat! similar Mode of %I#tg I R thy pny , y . ish‘.. w be peleilles4 by tebOsto A lead erminttlow a ced b.sest tooesi in . . 1 0 7 i ill Irelladf - Wm* Sekt cosaailitift . other ? Toyaima ~ S.' , - - . • I 1 1 I t .1 ( '; 4 ~~ . ~ a