The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-04-25 00:00:00

~~ f ~~ IMPERIAL PARLI.I..4IENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, kpitit, Counsel were fully he id resp,cting the Scots Ap peal Causes, Frasers v. Spalding and Fraser.— udgment postponed. The Earl of DAIIN LEV called the attention of their Lordships to the Iti . ;!) prices of provisions in ireland, a subject %%Lich he deemed highly worthy the serious nttotalion of the House. lie iblverted to what he had formerly thrown out on the suhjoct, and the remedy lie suggested, which Ministers had since found necessary to adopt, without which the distress Ivoutcl have become inlitiitely greater. Ile thought it vroald he important to ascertain, as far as practicable,. t;;e quantity of grain destroyed by the distilleries, within a given period, npplicable to the food of man. It was most particularly his intention to bring this scilicet, which referred to the food of nearly five millions of people, under the consideration of their Lordships, unless he found that Nlinisteis were.like ly to turn their serious attention to the vuhjeci. Ilia Lordship concluded by moving for an Account of the Quantity ,of Spirits distilled from Grain during the months of October, and the following months, up to - the present, in consequence of this propmdtion, a discussion of re,.m.c length ensued, but of which, as well as of what r,lbsequeolly took place, onr very resiiieted limits, from the press of variously interestinm matter, con fn^ Vs to a very brief and hasty sketch. Earl 11.1TIICRST reminded the Noble Earl of tl!e very extensive impertatious of corn from Ire land. _ Tim Earl of LIMERICK was of opinion, the No- Me Mover was not correct in his information as to' the suplioced scarcity and high prices of corn in Ire land, rind referred to some facts of which he was ere ilibly.and recently infcimed, which hove out hi:, in- I.rence, at least with respect to these parts cf that ccunt ry. The Earl of LAumc...a.k.LE and Lord HOL LAND supported what fell from their Noble Friend, tual censured Ministers for not recurring - sooner to t! e expedient which he hail recommended. What fell f.cm the Noble Earl (Limerick) they deemed as Lavirig only a partial reference. The Earl of LIMERICK spoke in explanation ; as did the Earl of DARN LEY ; and after a few words from the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, the question was put, and the account ordered accord- ingly. The Irish Fublic Accounts, and the Military Ac counts Auditing and a kw others, were brought up from the Curnaions by Mr. Lushicgton, and other Members, and read a first time. BERLIN AND MILAN DECREES. • Tire Earl of LIVERPOOL, by command of the Prioco lieguia, laid a Copy of tied Declaration issued by his Heys! ilighnt-ss, in consequence of the offi cial roroA rf ti,v Frylicli Minister to the Conserva tive Serlatt, the inttnition of the French Go vt.rnineut to ra% - seve:i. is th..se measures, before their Lordships. This pioce.:.lit:g Cha document itself is already before our save rise to some dis city ion. L'rd /TOLLAND expressed his wish to know, Iset..er it was meant by the eoeument, that a ge-; riml rep:al of all the parts of the Berlin and Milan Decrees, or only of those parts which most affected this country, or were contrary to the Jaw of nations, • should be required, ere an abregation of the Orders in Council should take place? The Eatl of uvrttroor, expressed his wish . to answer the No'il' Brron as far as the nature of the case would admit. It was a matt,:r of mach dispute how far either of those Decrees were or wire not re pealed.- Much of what the :Noble Baron seemed to contemplate would depend upon the particular case, as it shoukt•appear in proof to the Caorts below, as applicable to the Orders in Council. As to the par ticular question referring to a partial repeal of the Decrees hi crestion, it would be impossible for him prec:s.ly to say, without knowing what the parts tied were. A-general abrogation could only be i e,asequenca of a total repeal of those Decrees ; but with respect to any partial repeal, it would form a question for the determination of Govern ment, accordirg to the various circumstances of the care. Lord HOLLAND, in explanation, observed, that acverding to his unders'atyliog of the Noble Se cretary, a g repeal of the Berlin and Milan I)..ctTes was cold:wet:de(' by the document in ques tion: TE - P Earl of LAIJI:IIIDALF, was of opinion, Oat from the la tnyinge atnl enactments of the Milan D tilat of was ipso fw.f." repealed ; and ha sAhl. it wools, well become Ministers to consider tits d;strvssed state of the 13ritish manufacturers, ref..reitee to that subject. cniatended this was by. no rayons the ca , e, as in all the communications between the tha 13t rlin D4crees were e.j ail; referred to. CA I' 1171 EOFPADAJOS. Earl of LIVERPOOL gave notice, that (11 .`101 , 1:tv move the Thanks of the 1. )use to the Earl of Wellington and to the Army ei . 4a , ze d i n th e !4ie gt . and Capture of Badnjos, and c.ovetl that the Lords he summoned for that day.- o:.(!erctl. A sLeit canversaion ensued between the Marquis I.. , ti*tlowne, the Duke of Norfolk, and the Lads of Liverpool and Darnley, in consequence of ti: l ,t mentioned Peer observing, that an important Hill lied recently passed through that House (the Penitentiary Houses), without due attention being 'mitt to it. This led to no proceeding, as no motion was proposed. Some further documents illustrative of the sub ject of the Orders in Council, as the copies of forms of certain iiretiGts, &c. were, on the motion 4)f the rad of Lauderdale, ordered to be laid be-1 fore the )Louse. The ►larquis of DOUGLAS presented Petitions from the City and Port of Glasgow ; in Scotland, one from the Chamber of Commerce, established in -that City; and another from certain Ship Owners, Manufacturers, &c. praying for ti participation in . the Trade to India ; which being ;read ; , were ordered to lie on dm table. • . ViBASANTRY OF IRELAND. The Order of.the Day upon which Omit Lordships wtire summoned, being read, . • I) : c~ it y. .~ N 11 I • I ) TEE sTATESMIN. I t i ri m e u n s et a ! a g t i d i d e e x a c ittd t n tee e e Pe " t c r t i i: ‘' l t i t' , l :o l ' . . . was an absolute theory. lie. would ask, in reply to whose hands the Governmeet w a s --...........eeeeea5i those enlightened speculators, who would separate possessed the con i Earl STANIIOPE rose to mo've the second made t r l e 'e fus n e bo t t o io :o ' o pportunit y e l s l i Q dr i,i r ti the be r o nl , e : . ( 1::: ing of his Bill—For Betteting the Condition of the Peasantry and Tenantry of Great Britain and Ire- them ! : • Could . Roman Catholic Chancellors, Roman of the country ; teed. He prefaced the motion with a variety of oh- Catholic rrivy Councillors, and a Roman Catholic I m se o l r o e s i t ; ; l l e 'o ss r t e h f a t i t i s t e o Mr. YORKE would not occupy the time i of 1(1. : t l , ' , e st4 rli n a t m m en o t na b r e ch eo y Tid ll e e re u d as fu s it u h r f e a t l b g a u t a n r o d t i l a ii n n s g o c f o a ui P d r b e i . servntioes, explanatory of the grounds, t it i t e ul G e r a s f t o i r i c i : ing the arguments he had advanced in, strolls, as the causes of his introducing, an d the res., ' mor eat heart with C at h o li cs, if t h ey were s i n ce re , th an H ouse long, and in what he had to sun, h. ,h„l i'l'de sons for inducing their Lordships to age." to th e Bill, . th e extinction of th e P ro t es t an t Religion. When he end eavour to use t h e same temper and. m e o ode;n as an effectual remedy for a eery great and shanleful', looked at the genius of Catholicism, at the exclusive which the Honourable Gentlema n who split, ' la " ' grievance.. Durirgee . p ar t o f his speech,. the N 010 i sp i r i t with .which it was WWII, And e the gnneral had adopted, a s we ll upon t h at occasioe as upon e l ! Earl produced much risibility, by his remarks on a principle it adopted, namely,' that there was no sal- others. if lie th oug ht th e conce- icets noe &sire( letter which lie read, ns part of his former-sPeechs .1 'ration out of the pale of the church ; he must say could let vented without dan ger , h e h a d every o g , ‘ a l being the sentiments of a great lawyer on t he sub- i that the y were not safe hands to be entrusted with the feelin g tow ards his brethren in I retand ; but ha ject e in a letter to another p er son on the su bje c t, an d 1 care of the Establithedßeligion. As to what had been could !thew cehnimed . that siangn would not arise which contained opinions in favour of what he was said respecting the Church of Scotland, it bore no ap- I from the measure, and he would confess, though : vented him from „looking at the great measure en'', about to advance. The name of the Great Lawyer !plication whatever to the Catholic Churcit,for there was not a Weot, that he was ander that cloud '• h - e his pee l ' h who wrote it, be then declined stating, but he now I a spirit in all branches of protestantism weir allied declared it to be the letter of a Noble and Learned i them near to each Other, and rendered each less dan- : out the fear of very . (Mat consequences. li e coa' I Lord opposite (liedesdale). After 'expatiati n g o n ! gerous to the rest. They had to decide upon one of : nat bet consider it as a departure from Oa f t , ye, : the hijessice of suffering the law to remain as at pre- two propositions, whether nil religions were the ; mental h ews o f the realm. It had been asserted. th . tt sent, through which the occupying tenantrywere so I . same, and entitled to the same encouragement ; or i there was nothing tat the Bill.of Rights which hel ee much oppressed in* Ireland, 'and referring to a tract , whether, if one was preferable to another, it might , lalion. t o th e reemah-Catholi e Religiott ; but he on the subject by the Hon. Colonel Dillon, some ! not be unsafe to trust it into the hands of those who ' thought that part hi the Bill 43 f Rights whist pro. communications from the Noble Viscount, his father, 1 weie devoted to its desfeuetion ? When it came to i vided foretheteltgions-ef - tiresMossarch and esst a a c a and the excellent pamphlet of Counsellor O'Dedy I be a question how far the secuzities we had should be Papists, or ,those married to Pap m th istS, froe on the tubject, in illustration of his positions, the given np,it was a grave c onsideration for ever y man's , throne, had reference to that religion;and might Its Noble Earl moved, that the Bill be now read a se- 1 own mind, it was easy to compose a deciaMltion, ! considered a. fundamental Jaw of the r e a l m . li e cond time. , - , l thought not of so briiliaot a description as they had wenld not go the leneth of eivink, that the U l n ae Loud REDF..4DALE, after censuring the conduit h e a r d u po n thi s subject; there were general priti- tweet a n y farther indulgeeca to the Cathelies. nee of the person who communicated, for such a pu r pose, cipies, pl aus ible i n theory, but injurious in the the measure could not be agreed - to; unless the ab a letter confidentially written, and contending that' practical application, on which it was not difficult to settee of danger were proved ; and thee/me/wee:ma nothing he had advanced in the former discussions' make a display ; but he would refer every man to lay upon those who asserted, that on such danger clashed with the principles and positions in that let-1 his own historical reflection, to determine bow far existed. If the claims were to be reaeted a t s e, ter, said,' he should not oppose the motion, but, fort power conferred upon such a-sect would he likely to certainly the Itomp.n Catholics of England ought to his part, suffer the Bill to go into a Committee, where! promote those interests to which he was attached by , lie p re f err ed, f o r they had invariably behaved in the lie would be happy to contribute, if at all, legallyt education and conviction. They were told, that, Co - most quiet and etemplary ma n ner. [Hear, hear!] practicable, any way to alleviate the evils complained' . accede to the motion, would have a tendency to re- But they could not listen to the claims ; if they were of ; but the Bill, as it now. stood, instead of allevi- eaticile the minds of the people. In his opinion, the acceded to, it 'would be doing away the laws cf . atittg, would, Ile thought, go to aggravate those' tendency would be directly the reverse; the Come' England. Tire fundamental laws of our Coestita. evils. . . . . ;', mittee would be a fund for party questions add in- lion, more especially those which were for the in. The LORD CHANCELLOR shortly expres ' Ilammatory matter. In all civilised countries, some , mediate protection of the Cnurch, pronounced el. his coincidences in the opinions held bN bis Noble an : religion must be secured in the predominance; and $ elusion to the Catholics. Tira true way of consider. Learned Friend, and observed their Lordships shout ! whatever they might say of the benevolence of man- t ing the question it seemed was, to ascertain the consider well before they agreed to a measure which kind, and the mild spirit of relig ion, as long as hue ! greatest di ffi culty ; now, he thought, the great es t went to overturn a great part of. the law of landlord man nature continued to be wit it was, religious : difficulty was on the side of acceding to the Roman and tenant, in England, Scotland, and Ireland.' parties would become political parties. Parties of . Catholic denteeela...../twas said r however,." go into a Time should be allowed for the purpose of furtive ' this description were the most virulent and danger- 4 Committee !" Ne'e he would not go-into a Com. enquiry and consideration of the subject. , ous,. as they were not confined to the higher classes , mittee, because, by so .doiiti,r,. it would be holding Earl STA.NHOPE shortly explained. , i alone, but extended their influence' to every indi- out an underetantintonat something was to Int done. The Earl of LIVERPOOL seemed much Lin.: vidual in the State. Another argument insisted on rlf there were difficulties, such a proceeding would pressed with what had fallen from the Noble and was, that - Ireland would be. lost if concessions were 1 increase them. 'bite great and the hitherto irre. Learned Lords on the subject, and under such im - not made. But how was he to understand this i movable difficulty was,, the tenets of the Roman Ca. pressions, proposed to defer the Committee on the threat ? Did the allegiance of the Hon.. Gentlemen tholics. From them danger was to be inferred, sines Bill until that day two months. sit so loose upon them as to permit them to decline they still continued what they were centuries ago.— Earl STANIIOPE objected to so long an interval, ! the defence of the State in such an event? if so, he' He listened to what had been said, bat no one had as by far too late a period for &slue consideration of , must be permitted to say, that so far from being an ! ventured to say tint they were not the same. To be the Bill this Session. He thought a month would be ' argument in favour of the privileges demanded, it sure they had heard a geed deal • about the Roman amply su ffi cient. To this the Noble Secretary of I went directly in the other way i . If their loyalty Catholic opinions, but ha would ask the Honourable end.. le loose about them; they should be the last ' Baronet (sir Joke Cox Ilippeslay ), whether they Lid __ . . __. State assented, and the Bill was accordingly commit ted for this day month. The Bills upon the table were then respectively forwarded', and their Lordships adjourned till Mon day. / j , not continue I llad the Church of Rome been done away with—had they ahrogatcd any of those tenets ? —[ Yes, ,yrs ! said Sir J. Hippesky, rto-oil the table.]—flow was the fact:provet • but,ad,nitting that those tenets were gone, who could give security that those tenets would not be revived ? [llear!) But he would deny that any regular abrogation of those tenets by the see of Rome had ever taken place. The dangerous and objectionable tenets stilt existed —by the see of Rome they had never been abrogated. Ile would state to the House some of the grounds oil which he ventured to maintain that the tenets of all true Catholics now were what thejr had been for ages.. Soon afteibe — entered Parlia. latent, he was led to applaudllie,Bal brought in by Lord Redesdale, for - extending the privileges of the• Constitution to the Eoglish Roman Catholics ;• but he altered- his opinion of the measUre,, from what subsequently occurred. By that Bill an oath was prescribed, and it 'Wesigreed. to' on the part of those whew - ere to take it. , So soon, however, as the oath came to tle:knowledge of the Vicar' Apostolic, he condemned . •it, and eejoined all those for whom it was meant, not to take it. The Apostelic Vicar de• ttostitiatttereprttrdottitcocid-mert be taken hty . the' -of. the clergy or of the laity-tha.t the " faithful" could take uo oath whatever. Now Whit. was the oath proposed, and which was condemned by this Vicar Apostolic I Why, it stated that it was thereby sworn that the " Pope . could not absolve their allegiance from his Majesty." Such was the teuour of the oath, yet such an oath could not be taken, said the see of Rome. To show that the tenets of the Catho . i.:s still continued what they formerlY Were,. ho (Mr. Yorke) did nut consult ancient lore ; he quoted the; wevks of moderns—of enlightened men. In passing, .hocould not but re marks that *the Popish .Church of 'lreland had bean more devoted to head—to thr Pope, than that of any, other country, aye, much more thou the Churrlt of either France or hair. banger there could not but be apprehended from the • Catholics if all the pri vileges of the Constitution were extended _to then. • If further proof were wanting of the complete &- I aoSiOn of .the [kaftan Catholic laity to their CZlerev —to the See of , home,. iltin what the Vicar Alms ' • Colic afforded, subsequent event had brought to his - mind. thorough conviction on tat , subjnt. 'rho Veto arrangement afforded the ground of that conviction. The Catholic Laltycbaseuted to give the Veto--they never objected to if; but their Bishops -eid not ap prove of it, and 'no sooner dtu teey eprar agni;:st the Veto, than it totally diSappearrd.—` - y , Why, coold there be a Mill" ftl.6il 0 prop:` it ti:e cemplie dominion that the Clergy s over their Catholic laity? The laity were stir "`^m • + they still remained corripleely (levet( d to tlm . :r Pri's!s and Popes. Here was a' pretty ccoed Four; to', that the oaths were sf. some consequence is the e-ti motion of the pope. The Pope was now a ..lAA no one lead ever heard the opit.i-ott cf Fsh .Catholic Clergy, in the event of IL sproj:;:- ing astrccessor. In the crept of therohe . ; moter Pope norn!riated by*Our inveterate enemy Booaparte, Catholic•Clerav stilt deem their iung so loos 'Y persons entrusted with political power. The ques tion, he thought, should be laid asleep one way or other, and while he gave credit to the Hon. Gentle men on the other side, for their attention to the pub lic quiet while , in office, by omitting to bring for ward this question, he trusted their sentiments would not change with change of situation, and that on re flection they would see the impropriety of pressing-it forward at present. Mr. ELLrorr .agreed fully in the veneration ex pressed by the Right lion. Gentleman for the Uni. versity of Oxford, and thought the delay of thefr present Petition' an additional claim to approbation, by _signifying the march of truth and reason in this great cause. lie disclaimed all notion of discussing the merits of the question upon the ground of ab stract right. This question, lik% all others, dep:nd ed on advantages and disadvantages, on benefits and dangers.. The arguments against the claims of the Catholics might be reduced to three classes : first, theZanger to be apprehended from granting them ; secondly, the constitutional objections; and; third ly, the doubt which was entertained of their effi- Cary, in case they should be granted. The changes Which had of late years taken place in the world' had rendered tho.danger considerable. There were no longer any apprehensions from the Pretender, &c. and as to the doubt which some. persons entertained of their Oaths, the proposal of an °ILKt as a proteh , tion against their alleged disregard of them, was ra ttier a clumsy expedient. The opiniOns of the Pro testants of freland were now on the table of the House, and the advancement of the Catholics in pow er, wealth, and consequence, rendered their case still more worthy of consideration. One argument had been resorted to on a former Occasion, which . • made a great impression on his mind, and that was, the assertion that the Union was a bar to the mea-. sure. For the propriety of this position he would' refer them to the whole history of the • trans action, to the Fourth Article of the Union, and to the expectations which ' were excited,., and by - means of which additional facility was given to the passing of the measure. Under such circumstauces, to turn round and.soy, the Union. was a bar to concession, was impolitic, „imprudent, unge nerous, and unjust. lie Was told by some tbat_.the 'mass of the population was indifferent to it, and from others he heard the reverse : but when reasoning for himself, he saw the narked distinctions in force ; he could not believe that they had.not ,wisk to parti cipate in the rights and privileges of the constitution. He then entered into a detail of all the exclusions un- . ' der Which - they. laboured io the army and navy. and at the bar, and maintained that they ought. to go into a Committee.. Before they could, decide what se ' curities would be necessary, they child(' have the in-., formation of those who were mast . conversant With the tenets of the religion, which.could only be done in a Committee of the whole house. lie wished to settle country as powerrhl as Possible, Stitt for that purpose be would recommend, that the Church should throw open wider doors of to'eration. They : . *lid depend, that by the present system they did.not make - one proselyte from the Catholic religion — they ' would the R0`..1311 Might Mike a chasm in the mind whie't. they could allegiance due to that Pope ?. If :welt a ncm;nat:on not upat,tbey pleased—they might destroy those were to !a'ze .place, would not the Pope be crae- Ima!erials i o f whi c h they might have constituted * a pletely at the Will of Bonaparte Whe n s•Jch ur' ht tower . ofstrentk; tut could accomplish n - be the case, lie (Mr. YorLe) had a to g o;id .thingfor.tbegood of aociety l br persevoiing in so er- against approaching danger. Ile should not chccse With respett to, the elution to that Bonaparte should be the keeper of the conscievc -A ive = s titiliblOAltoo4 the . did was , to keep off of threr. , ..fourtbs , of the people of Irelan d.— [ to. d : r • , kiteossimitseocitsfilse prajtatliices lEttown es** ilcar hear!] Locke and I;l3.cl:stone both 301144.110bot,ic,.ask,..imalf4kosso_artiloso who Wisi th ought that 'the .Roman Catholics could . eat tiosassiiass4ilatisoilesimacisit4hiscisseot:was ; wish any Gosernassit except that of . Rome ; that *.Dll4"liallPiete°l4ll*Fl4l4l'l4.. 111"tilailtaiiieltiAti-..Atilielr oaths they - tress " lifted up against other, _ ` f ' • . IIOU:;E OF COMMON'S. The Trii , h Grain Prohibition Bill, and the Tobacco Pipe-clay Bill, weiv Lraught in, and read a first time, and or dered to be read a seened time on Monday neat. A Person from the Office of Chief Secretary of Stift. for Ire land, presented an Account of the Number of Bank of Ireland Notes in circolation. The Committees on the Scotch Local Militia Bill, and on the consideration of the Lord: Message, respecting the Fourth Re port of the East India Company, were Fostponed to Wednes day next. Lord ft. HAViILTON presented a Petition from the Mer chants of Glasgow, against the Orders in Council. Mr. II OU STO S presented a Com:ter-Petition from the Tra ders and Manufacturers of the same place. After a few words from Mr. Brougham, the Chancellor rf the Kxchenoter, lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Houston, and Gimeral Tar leton, the Petitions were ordered to lie on the table. Thes4l AN CEl.l,Olt, of the EXCHEQUER gave notice, that he would move fur a Vote of Thanks to Lord Wellington, andthe Gallant Army who had taken awlajos by storm, on Monday neat.—(l' is notice seas fullonvd 6,1 loud Cheers.) CATHOLIC QUESTION. (RESUMED DEBATE.) The motion for a Committee to enquire into the • state of the Irish Catholics having been put from the i Chair, Sir IVILLIAII SCOTT commenced with skll. eating the conduct of the illustrious. University which he had the honour to represent (Oxford) from some aspersions which were thrown out on the former night. In contradiction to these assertions he would state, that there was no community of men more dis tinguished for their attachment to the Constitution, more unshaken in their fidelity to the throne, and more firm in their resistauce to the demands of legal tyranny. They bad ever been the forward assentors of civil liberty cud personal independence. With respect to their Petition on the subject before the House, it was voted by a majority of four to one, and the whole number of persons who voted against , it was but '2l. It was as fair a represeetation of the sentiments of that whole body as he believed "it was of the educated part of the country in general.' Upon the question immediately before them, he should not trouble them at any length; fit, co*4 pot , help considering it as one which was calculated only to excite those passions which must disturb the do mestic trauquitlity, and to hazard the calamity of setting fire to the country. There was no probabi lity of their coming this year to a different determi nation from that to which they had come iu any of ; ,• the preceding years, yet they were told every year 1 that it must be done. The constant answer of the Legislature to such threats was, that it should not be done, so that the effect of those repeated. applica tions warto keep up a continual warfare betweeti l the Legislature and the Petitioners. It had-been said that there was no clamour ; but though there was no clamour, there might be strong sensation, and he was confident there was. Bet had the Peti tioners brought the question any nearer to aq nd justment than in former instances ? Had they offer. ed those securities which might have a teadency to allay the apprehensions entertained by some? Or . had they not, on the contrary, refused all secur iti es , even those which they were willing to have conceded before? So far from granting any security, they accompanied their claims with an explicit declaration, • that their Church should hate s a marked public en couragement ; must it.not be apprehended, that this. request must mean, in other wordo r watarked disceOragernont to the established gligioti of •. the country ? The time had, not long. passed, wbest.it was th o pot a fundamental principle of titer coops aoia, th is th: civil fabric should he ceatbieeCatitb a . relWous establiebment;..but sow they wextribiti l it ;*- 17 I I! • i , • t •( ..h 1! : Ui