The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-01-28 00:00:00

awe- - mig h t not, perhaps, be devoted to that object, and while Parliament, on the credit of a mere assertion, v oting away the public money, it might b e di :as l eed to far different purposes than those for which it was intended; it might be used only to increase that influence, which having been augmenting for ve ers, had now grown to so enormous a height, that it 'was in vain to attempt to prune it, and the only way to check it was to strike at the root. The Bill, continued the Honourable Member, teems with influence, and an influence which, if the Gentle men please, they may de either for or against the Crown. With regard to the Commissioners who w ere to be appointed to manage the real and per sonal property of his Majesty, they were and p obligation of an oath not to reveal any thing to Par liament, though they might to the Prince Regent, and to the Queen, who is their mistress ; but to the Parliament they may refuse any information what ever. And to what purpose might this private pro pet w be applied? He did not mean to say it would, - but be would ask to what purposes it might be ap plied? Perhaps to the buying of seats in that House, With the intent of carrying measures, advantageous, in a narrow point of view, to the real and personal benefit of the King. He deprecated also, the form ation of a separate Court; •f the Queen's Court, which might act in opposition to the Ministers ap pointed by the Prince Regent, and who woul d, of course, be the legitimate servants of the Crown. — With regard to the money part of the present Bill, he thought the Exchequer :Annuity essjoyed. by the Prince, as Prince of Wales, ought to merge alto gether in the revenues of the Civil List. Much had been said about the 50,0001. which the Prince had ,ireit in aid of the Civil List. But where was this gift to be found? Had itbeen communicated to that House in an official way ? Was there any record of it on their Journals? If he looked into them when they were made up should he find it (',Pre? lie believed he should not. lie had strong objections to the prin ciple of the Bill ; and before he could consent to the Speaker's leaving the Chair, there were many things which he hoped to hear explained. In the course of the last feW days papers had been been laid upon the table, containing accounts of certain expenditure ; but those very accounts needed explanation in his. opinion. All these items which regarded Sir Sidney Smith, the Marquis Wellesley, &c. might, no doubt, be satisfactorily accounted for ; he had no doubt they might : but as yet they had not been ' • and he was of opinion that the only place in which the ne cessary enquiries respecting those items could be made was a Committee above stairs, where also, and where only, those enquiries could be answered. At all events, therefore, he wished the postponement of this question. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER be gao by observing, that the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had appeared to impute to him a desire I withhold from the House the necessary informa tion on the subject; and the lion. Gentleman who had spoken last (Mr. Whitbread) had conceived him to be unwilling to make those explanations which ap peared to him so important. He did not conceive that those imputations were merited ; and he would assure the Right Hon. Gentleman and the lion. Gen tleman, that his only reason for not Tieing earlier in the debate was, that he wished first to hear the sen timents of Gentlemen on the other side, and to un derstand on what grounds they opposed the Bill. He was glad to have had the opportunity of hearing the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, before he delivered his sentiments on this question. Having now heard him, he must say, that his having fallen into a great misconception (in which he was set right by his own friends) appeared to him a very strange .reason for requiring a much more extended en quiry upon this subject. lie had waited to hear the sentiments of different Gentlemen on the op posite bench, because lie wished to know whe ther they meant to oppose the Bill in its principle or in its details. It appeared, however, that the whole question was this,—whether the nature of the arrangement now proposed was or was not of such a description, as that the House could not he satisfied in its decision without a more detailed statement ? As to the question of the ,Household, lie thought that it would be sufficient for the present, if he could convince the House that nothing more was asked than what was reasonable, and in all probability ne cessary. If the House should see nothing unreason able or objectionable in the sum proposed for this purpose,all the other questions which had been start ed to-night might be discussed and disposed of on some future occasion. The Right. Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had shewn such a distrust and disbee lief of the accuracy of all estimates presented to the House, as to say that he did not know how to be. here that 500001. a year less than the usual amount of the Ci v il List could be sufficient for the Prince. — if, then, he supposed that the sum proposed was too little, he could hardly agree with the lien. Gen tleman who spoke last (Mr. Whitbread), who appear ed to think it too much, and who therefore wish for a very detailed statement before he could agree to it. As to the expences of the Lord Steward's de partment, it must be recollected, that if any arrears were due and paid out of the current expences, this would make t hi current espences appear greater than they really were. As to the grants to foreign Minis. tern, the Hon. Gent. had only professed to speak ge nerally, although he had dwelt at some length on grants to certain individuals. It would certainly, se' first sight, appear somewhat unaccountable, that larger sums should be greeted thin at a time whets we had more Ambassadors at Foreign States. — The fact was, that it was not in salaries that those ayments had been mad e , but in remunerations for losses upon the missions which it was necessary to send out. Lately, instead of regular Ambassadors, many special missions bad been sent out to foreign parts f or a s h ort t i me. F or those m i ss i ons t h ere had been no regular salary given, bat a mere indemnifi cation for the expences of the outfit, and of the mission. As to the Marquis Wellesley, be never received a s i ng l e f ar thi ng o f t h e pu bli c mon ey in the way of salary for his mission to Cadiz; the Sam which he had received was in the way of re- Payment_ for expences incurred by !him k.poa that fassiou. The necessary expeuces of the outfit for • persons go ing on a mission fora short time. were much greater in proportion than those incurred for a longer time. As to the item mentioned as a Payment to Sir Siihtey Smith ) he conceived that sub- YHE STATESMAN. _ _ _ • - ..e . - - 1 ject had already been very sufficiently explained.— tleman who spoke last, who seemed 'always to Ministers bad thought it their duty to Wy before What was the nature of this payment? It was no- I consider whatever he (Mr, Perceval) had to pro- , the Regent on this subject, as to induce hire to change thing more than a remuneration for money expended i pose as decidedly wrong and objectionable. That ; these Ministers. In a constitutional 'point of view, a long time ago in the service of his country, in Honourable Gentleman had asked.—What ! appro- :it was incumbent on the House to s ippose, that the Egypt and Syria. This subject, however, had been priate so large a sum out of the Prince's Exchequer ; whole awangement was previously submitted to hit taken up in two very opposite points of view. Some Income as 70,0001. to the payment of engagements Royal Highness e and had obtained his approbation. Gentlemen thought that it was a great reproach to of which the politic knew nothing? Now, really i Had not that [loyal Personage as much authority in. Government that a debt of this nature should have if lie (Mr. P.) had proposed an enquiry on the part ' his own councils as he could have ? It was an idle been so long due; white others thought that the pre- of the House, into those engagements of honour to recurrence, then, to the declamations of last year, sent Bill should be stopped, in order w enquire into which he had alluded, he entertained little doubt, .to represent Ministers as actuated by distrust and this item. As to the first objection, he would oh- but that the Ilon. Gentleman and his friends would ; suspicion. upon the whole, be (Mr. P.) had felt, , serve, that although no praise was too high which have asked, —Was it fair to bring them before Par- I that by taking the course he proposed, the House had been given to the merits of that distinguished liament, without its making any provision for their, would best consult the honour and personal accom , officer, yet when it was recollected that the greater payment? The lion. Gentleman would probably ! modation of the Regent. Had it been proposed, part of those accounts must necessarily be vouched have declaimed still more loudly against this treat- that the whole of the Civil List, and the controul of by himself, and that he hid been absent for a long meet, as ungenerous ; particularly when a Commis - , the Household, should be given to the Prinee, that time in the service of his country on foreign stations, sion, acting under Parliamentary authority, had de- !he (Mr. P.) would probably have been told that he it was not wonderful that the account was not sooner dared, that the creditors in questitie had no legal had some sinister object in view,—that he meant to settled. But as to the second objection, he must ask, claim. Upon the whole, then, he thought that the lie by, and see how those duties were fulfilled-, is was it rational that a proposition, which had f or its wa y he bad proposed was precisely that in which the ; order to have some ground of attack,—that, in short, object merely the making a suitable provision for the House could most consistently with themselves dis- :he was actuated by the wish of placing the Prince in care and atteudance of the person of the Ki ng , du- pose of this part of the subject. The Right Honour- an invidious situation. On the prese it, however, ring his illness, should be stopped for such an ob- able Gentleman who opened the debate had asked,— ias on every Other occasion, he bad the satisfaction of jection ? " Oh! don't go on with the Bill! (says whether there were to be two Privy Purses, one be-' feeling, that he had proposed the arrangement the lion. Gentleman) because I see an item of 70001.; longing to his Majesty,' and the other to the Re. which appeared to him the most expedieet and it ,9 paid to Sir S. Smith, as a remuneration for money ex.! gent? To this he would answer, certainly, it was i would be for the House to decide on es merits. But pended by him in Syria and Egypt. Let no carelw 'so intended in the Bill. The Honourable Gentle.; the Right Hon. Gentleman had also stated, that provision be made for the Royal Person, until I man seemed to signify his approbation of this part . ' placing the Royal Household ander thecnntroul of the curbs into the details of this item ; of the ac- of the arrangement; and he had only to repeat witb d eQueen, was in fact forming a second and ti rival curacy of which 9 however, I have no doubt.—This I regard to it, that it was intended the King's privy t Court, to which disappointed seen would naturally I was the argument upon which the Honourable Gen- ; , purse should baelejecit to the usual charges upon it, retreat.- and which world] soevew theta. a - *Hying tie wished to stop the progress of tEtißillr; and and aiscThetir expences of medical attendance.— point for annoying the Regent's Government.. !gnat, yet the lion. Gentlentan who wished to stop the ; He would now shortly advert to the subject of an however, was to be the composition of this great progress of the Bill, in order to enquire into items establishment for the Princesses. The Right Hon. and formidable Court ?---Why, four Bed-chamber like these, had passed a fine eulogiuns bn the honour Gentleman had represented him, as if he had stated, Lords, the Groom of the Stole, and, to add to the I and character of Sir Sidney Smith, which, as he said, that when the Princesses were in town, then they ; dangerous list, all the Pages ! [et laugh.] iris j required explanation on these subjects. It appeared were to be at the charge of the Prince Regent; and was to be the formidable retreat, which, it Was as to him that a very sufficient explanation had been gi- when at Windsor, then they were to live at the ex. sumed, that he had provided for himself ; and leech ven, when it was said, that the sum of 70001. had been pence of the Queen. Now he had never proposes was, in all events, to secure him such a mighty In. granted as an indemnification for money expended by ; any such arrangement; neither had he received, in tlueuce !—This idea was really too ridiculous for Sir Sidney Smith in the service of his country ; and his official capacity, any commands on the subject any serious consideration. 'lke truth was, that in although too much Gould no t b e sa id o f the merits from his Royal Highness the Prince Regent. It cer. no other way could the attendance on his Ma of that gallant Officer, yet the subject appeared to tainly appeared desirable, however, u .der all the jesty be called a Court, but inasmuch as it was have been introduced merely to increase the effect circumstances, that some new arrangement should placed about the person of the King. There was of the Honourable Gentleman's declamation, and be made for them ; and when the present measure nothing dangerous or formidable iii what he pro.- improve his periods, as there was no reason to doubt was deposed of, that might be a fit subject of consi- ; posed. Parliament had, years ago, given a sepa of the account n tech had been already given. The dere:ion for the House. It must naturally occur to rate establishment and a Court to the Prince of sum that had been voted to Mr. Arbuthnot was also every one, that the state of the Princesses must be 1 Wales, and yet was not afraid cf its proving a. given as a remuneration for property lost by him on materially altered, when they no longer enjoy the I dangerous rival to that of his Majesty. Our Con. the precipitate retreat which he was obliged to make aid and assistance of their father ; that it, therefore, ! stitution was not, surely, so nicely ba'anced and from Constantinople. The same principle governed became a fit subject to be brought before Parliament;' feebly supper tel, that rota. Lirds of the B d-chamber the grants in the other instances which had been men- : and it would be for them to determine, whether any . Were to overturn it, P% en though the Fag a were ad. tioned. It surely was aot to be expected that anyGoti. ; thing,and to whatextent,should be given the Princesses I ded to their weight ! [Laugh.] Neither in this House, Heaven sent to a foreign court on a mission of impor- to make up for the want of that paternal assistance nor out of it, could this establishment form any ob i Lance to the interests of this country, should be al- to which they bad hitherto been so much indebted,— ject either of jealousy or inconvenience. There was lowed to incur the risk of absolute ruin upon the ; There was one point on which the Right lion. Gen- I one observation that fell from the Hon. Gentleman mission. If in the vicissitudes to which many of the tleman (Mr. Tierney) had laid very great stress ; and 1 opposite, that the Exchequer income of the Prince Courts in Europe have been subjected of late years, that was, the portion of the Royal Household which : ought to be taken away, and merge in the Regency. lan Ambassador should suffer a great private loss, he it was proposed to place under the controul of the iTo the, he would answer, that this could not be ought to be indemnified br his country, in whose Queen. First, the lion. Gentleman objected to the I done without an Act of Parliament. Upon the service he was. All the items which had been ob- amount of the expense with which it would he attend- whole, he trusted that the general principles on I served upon in the course of this discussion, were , ed. In answer to this, he would only repeat what which the Bill was formed would meet the approba. either for money actually expended, or actually lost ' he had formerly said, that it would be right for the 1 Hon of the house: and in the Committee, such al ou those foreign missions. In stating this, he went i House to make such a provision as would be suitable' terations might be made is the various details, as perhaps further than was necessary. Ile had no ob- Ito his Majesty, in the event of a partial recovery, would render the whole more calculated to meet the petiole at any future time, to have the details of) items, which it was by no means impossible might take objects in view. i those and every one of them , fully examined' . place. On this point, there was no necessity for ex- . Mr. A.RBCTONOT was anxious taadeirestea few bet he thought that it was most evident that they ha d"! amining eke Physicians anew. It already appeared, ; words to the 'House, in consequence of what had nothing at all to do with the present question. As . from the interrogatories put to them, that there had I fallen from an lieu. Gentleman, on the expences of to the Commissioners for managing the Royal pro- i been intervals when his Majesty was able to enjoy I the diplomatic mission in which he (Mr. A.) had been perty, which the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) I conversation, though unfit for transacting business. ; employed. He felt impatient till an opportunity bad conceived' would be such au increase of influence, ; (Mr. Tierney whispered across the table, " not since ' should arrive, when the House might go into the he was convinced that Gentlemen could be found to 1 July last.") Certainly not ; but then there was no ; fullest examination of those accounts—[Hear !]— accept of the situation with ou t an y salaries. The ' reason to conclude, from the examination of the Phy- IHe acknowledged his obligations to that Hon. Gen. Right Hon. Centime's (Mr. Tierney) had conceived, ' sicians, that this state of partial convalescence would tleman, for the handsome manner in which he had that it was a very hard matter t o legislate for the never again occur, though the prospect was now less ' spoken of his character in private life; and he trust- King's private proper , e. It, appeared to him, how. : promising. Neither from the answers of the Physi- i ed, that when the accounts in question were exam. ever, that if Parh imeut thought it right to interfere cianseior from the general knowledge which every man , hied by Parliament, that lion. Gentleman would about the care of the person of the King, there was a must have of this unhappy malady, was there any rea- ' have reason to think as favourably of his public con not much greater difficulty hi making a legislative son to despair of his Majesty having some intervals of duct. The sums of expenditure on that mission, he provision for the care of his property. The Right I recollectionof the past,andconsciousnessof the present. acknowledged, were exceedingly large; but till the Hon. Gentleman, however, who found it so dish- Besides, if we were at all to consider the dignity of the period of explanation came, he hoped that no un -1 cult to legislate about the private property of the King, there must at least be some degree of attend- ' generous reflections would be thrown upon his cha. Xing, seemed to think that there was no difficulty at , ance to surround him. But the Right Hon. Gentle- ' racter.—[ Hear !] all in taking the Privy Purse from him, and seizing; man's main objection was, that the controul was to Mr. PONSONBY denied that his , Hon. Friend it without any ceremony at all. It was strange, that 'be vested in the Queen; and in this part of the ar- (Mr. Whitbread) had condemned any charges of exe when there appeared such difficulty in legislative in- rah Bement, the Hon. Gentleman said, he perceived ; penditure as inordinate; his object was only to shew, .terference to save his property from being wasted, those symptoms of deep distrust of his Royal High- 1 that the House were called upon to vote the e _ Civil there should yet appear uo difficulty at all in inter. ness, which 'had pervaded the whole of the measures List while there was no full information before it.— fering to take away from him the Privy Purse. Ant of last year on the subject of the Regency. But , i The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had demanded Honourable Gentleman had supposed that this private really this distrust on the part of Ministers must seem I examination into a part of the Civil List accounts, property Was very large, and might be used in a way I entirely without object. Could any man suggest any ' and this alone was sufficient to support the ellegation prejudicial to the interests of the country. As for his reason, why he himself in particular should feel any !of his Hon. Friend. Had the House, he would ask, 0-own part, he must declare, that he keew of no sock I distrust of the Prince Regent? He would leave it to ex amined evidence to shew that the Civil List should I accumulation of private property as the Honourable Gentlemen on the other side to discover, whether any be increased ? There was no proof of any thing of Gentleman hail supposed. It was known that his I partt of his Royal Highness's conduct towards him ; the sort before them. Though he was now able in Majesty had purchased some private estates about was such as to excite distrust. [hear, hear!] He; some measure to understand the Right Honourable Windsor and elsewhere, due they were by no means could conceive no possible reason why that distrust I Gentleman's plan, yet it was certainly tree, .that of such magnitude as to justify the alarm expressed should be felt by himself in particular. But what, I when it was first broached to the House, he could upon this occason, or to present any dancer to the ihe would ask, did Gentlemen on the other side pro- not comprehend its details. Bet In this want of corn- Constitution. With regard to the excess of the Civil ; pose? Did they really mean to say, that the whole prehension he had a great authority and example to List expenditure above the income, he was ready to' power of his Majesty's portion of the Household keep him in countenance, and that was no less than acknowledge that it was a thing which Parliament ' should be left in the hands of the Prince Regent ? I the Right Hon. Gentleman himself : for it was first ought to look to with some suspicion ; though he did I Were they prepared to say, that by so doing, ! proposed by him,• that the care iif the King's private root see what immediate reference it had to the subject they would best consult the feelings and the per- = property shouldbe vestedin three Commissioners, with I now under consideration. He was prepared to add, sonal comfort of his Royal Highness ? [Hear, , a salary of 10001. a year each ; but he now seemed to however, that he meant afterwards to propose, thate I hear, hear !] It was hardly possible to conceive ; think that those Commissioners should have no salary should the excess of the Civil List expenditure, I a more invidious and disagreeable situation than' at all, but should do their duty gratis. It was no in any one year, amount to more than 10,0001. I that in which the conferring of such authority would wonder that the plan should appear at first i n c o m . then the 4ccooots forming that excess should place the Prince Regent. (Mr. Tierney here ob- I prehensible to other people, when the great author be laid before Parliament, that they might judge served across the table, that the Queen would still, and owner of it was thus himself ignorautand uncer. whether it Was justifiable or not. The Right Hon. as she ought, have the care of his Majesty's person.) ' tam as to its details. The Right Hon. Gentleman Gentleman had stated other objections to the pro- Why, even to this arrangement the very same objet- had observed, that every measure, which he, as a pissed appropriation, and particularly to the transfer tion was applicable • and had he (Mr. P.) or any of Minister of the Crown, broug ht down to Parliam e nt, of any part of the Civil List from the Executive Go- his friends propose d it, it would have been met must be supposed to have the sanction of the Prince Vernment. In answer, he would beg leave to ob. with the same charge of implying unfounded distrust Ragent. In this doctrine he agreed, as constitu. 'serve, that the House were not now about to make of his Royal Highness ; so extremely difficult, if not tional ; and would also beg leave to add, that in the a final arrangement for a Prince upon the Throne, impossible, was it to steer clear of the objections of performance of their duty as Members of Parliament, but only for the period during which his Majesty's the Hon. Gent. opposite. But he would only put it it was not their business to talk of any measure as I illness should contin u e. Under all the circumstances, to the good sense of the House, was it right or pro- being agreeable to the will of the King or the Re however improbable his Majesty's recovery might be, per that' the care of the Person should be separated gent, hut to discuss it as originating with Ministers, It would not be correct to deal with the subject now from the controul of the Household? Was it lit that who alone were responsible. The flight Honour , before them, as if the House were actuated by an the Queen should have the custody of his Majesty's able Gentleman had objected, that it would be utter despair of his Majesty returning to the Throne; person and not the controul of his servants 1— invidious to place his Majesty's portion of the and, therefore, the House ought to keep this in Ilear! . ]—No duty, he must again repeat, could be Royal Household under the Regent. But how mind, that there was at least a possibility of his imposed on the Prince Regent more invidious, more could it be invidious, when, constitutionally Royal Highness again returning to private life : that grating to his feelings, than the controul which speaking, the whole `mug be placed under the con being the case, it would be extremely inconvenient had been proposed. If the Prinee Regent thought duct of the Ministers of 'the Crown, who were re• to break down his Exchequer income. lie bad also his Ministers were insulting and degrading him, spoasible for every act of their Master ; and sure he stated before, that there were certain engagements of was be so limited In his functions as not to be able was that the Right Hon. Gentleman was Incapable honour which the Prince had contracted ; and he 614111611 as them? Was It likely that, were he ac. of advising any act in respect to the King which trusted the House would feel it but just and equitable, tuated with such feelings, he would authorise Mi- would prove injurious to the character of the Prince. that his Royal Highness should not be made to dis- uisten is lay this arrangement before Pat*. The plain and broad principle on whica he thought appoint any of those engagements. This appro. I meat? The House were boundlo suppose, that there the arrangements should be form ed, was 9 that the priation did not, however, please the Ron. Gen- was nothing so offensive in the propositions which Prince Regent should have exactly what the King ;~~' i .0 0 ~., 1 1 11 I ; ; ! . • •";*.; if t • • k . • ) 4 : .10 1 1 11 I . • - ~.r~ . _.. NimUIPPo POIMIWP . `6 7 ".tirT•-‘ 10° / / !! 1 _!