The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-02-27 00:00:00

~~-. ;. , . In any ancourteons manner to him, I take kayo to put it again." Mr. PERCEVAL.—gi I was the Privy Coen eellor that took his 3litiestl's pleasure upon the ! Address." • In answer to a question from a Member, the SPEAKER stated, that the Address was commu nicated-to the Crown in the way usually adopted it pita such occasions. Lora TEMPLE allndid to the manner in which the Address upon the Chancellorship of the Pa. eby of Lancaster was. conveyed to the rupee, as a proof that there were some deviations_ . The SPEAKER replied, that he did net insi mate, that it was the only mode ever adopted. bIt.PONSONBY, without giving any opinion at *resent upon the answer now giveif, trusted, that it tiould be inserted upon the Journals of the Musa, in order . bat, if necessary, an applica tian might be made to it on a future occasion. . The SPEAKER.stated, thatit was the uniform rule to bate the answer inserted on the Journals. MILITARY EX pENPITURE. Sir THOMAS TURTON stated his desire be fore he brought forward the motion of which he kid given notice, to set himself right with the house and the Country, in answer to cliarg.CS brought against him by Ministers upon a former', night, lie was then told that his object was to riishaud the army and stop its pay. The injustice of such a charge was evident front the fact, .that the delay his motion woul l . occasion in voting the Army Estimates, could not be produCtive of any such effea, inasmuch as Use Mutiny Bill in England would not cvpire before the 25th of March, oar io Ireland until the l't of A pril. Independent of that, t ie House had already voted the sum of five millions fir the army. Surely then the House would do him • the justice of bc'ieviog, that his motives were not those imputed to him, and that he was but exec. rising his duty when he objected to give such an army .ts was voted last year, after the evidence they had received ; namely, that out of 105,000 effective men according to the last year's estimates; Ministers could not provide in the month of March last 16,000 (or foreign service. But he was told by the Minister, that it would be much more cue. rect to bring at orteca specific charge against them, rather than take his present course. this answer was, that he would not vote au army so large to their disposal, whom he accused of being critni till!y lavish blood and treasuns of the country, — to whose conduct, he attributed the . loss of Spain, and the depreciation of the King's G•ivernment in the estimation of the public.— Such men he would not trust with the nation's means to be squ'andered in such Expedi. lions as that of Walcheren. It was true .that seine of them had changed places whilst others had retired, and although the present War Secre tary had not as much military ardour as his pre decessor, sill such was their atarsta for ruinous expeditions, that lie would not be much est°. iii,ll..d at some attempt,. even now, to renew the mut hto Paris. [A laugh After some other observations the lion. Baronet concluded with moving, " That there be la;d before the House a Iteturu of the amount of the Expenditure of the isii!itars Force of the Country from the 24th of Dee. to the 25th of Dec. 1809." Mr. LONG btated, that if it was in the con. temptation of the Honourable Mover to have ac. Coo " of the Expenditure of our whole Military Force, both at home and abroad, that was im practicable without considerahle delay. There could be no objection to produce an account of the sums issued by the Secretary at War for the time, although from the late period (the very day on which the Army Estimates were to be consi dered) at which the Honourable Baronet brought fu;ward his motion, lie could not see how it was possible that such return could answer his (Sir 'f.'s) object. Sir JOHN NEWPORT suggested, that it would be advisable for the future to provide that the Mutiny Bill should not expire until a more ad. sauced- peried of the Sessions. It would in the case of such arrangement be practicable to have the accounts of the preceding years laid in the fol. lowing Session b.-fore the House. Sir THOMAS T, URTON, in explanation, ob. served, that much information would be communi. cated by getting the account, so far as it could be Made up. Why not give the account as it refer. red to the ilt•ne Service, and to the Expenditure of the army sent to Walcheren. There P0(1111 be no injury to rho public service by delaying the con.. sideratien of the Army Estimates for eight .or ten days, and in the mean time an account could ho prepared calculated to impart very satisfactory iq. formation. • Mr. HUSKISSON said it would be impossible to prepare within a given time the general account required by the reliant motion, the only practi. cable object woulit be to obtain the sums issued.— With reipeet to the akenrie-essot -to Wileiteree, it w is to be recoiled, that the expenditure for sub. sokting that army would have been the same, who. tiler they remained' at home or went upon ser. nice. Mr. PARNELL considered it no (answer to a ill-ocher of Parliament to inquire into the public ~ mntliturc, to be told thet.the account could not be made up. It was only a proof that our sys. tern of accounting was defective, end ought to be corrected. Mr. CALCR AFT contended. that the House shook! pause'before it voted a new army tq hli. misters, who, as was proved in evidence, could not out of 105,000 effective voted last year, provide in the mouth of March last 16,000 fur the public service. Lord PALMERSTON answered , that the ex planation on that point was, that although there were 105,000 effective men, there could not at that time be provided a disposable force of snore than 16,000 men. Mr. CA ICRA FT—So then out of the 405,000 • e ff e ctive men, it is now to be understood there were 89,000 non-effective. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCVEQUER Rated, that the full force was . effective , but th at the obstacle the tins alluded to arose from the Mate of the new eguipmento. fir GEORGE' WARRWPER remarked , - - .; 1 - [ i's 7 lf C__ ',:..x.qtrt,',;:xl._ ~.:~.. KIT" 1-, • .. ~. Tftv TOATESNIAN. that such an explanation was only applic.ible to the army which returned from Corunna. By the Estimates 'before the' House, it-was evident that independent of that force there was a return of 70,000 effective men in the month of January last, to whom to whom the explanation with respect to the state of their equipments could not apply. The house then divided, when the numbers were— • •For the radio° . of Sir T. Turtoa 35 4j4irbt it .• - - - 76 • Majority —4l VELLERsizip OF THE EXCHEQUER, The CHANCELLOR. of the. EXCHEQUER monad fur a new writ fur the-couuty of Cambridge, in the"room of the Right Hon. Charles Yorke, who since his election hail accepted the place of ono of his Majesty's Tenets of the itchsquer. , -- Agreed to. ~ - - Mr. HENRY MARTIN gave notice, that he would, on the first open day after theOermination of the Inquirg, move fur leave to bring in a Bill to, extend the provisions of the Act, relative to Masters and Suitors in Chancery. LORD WELLINGTON's PENSION. Mr. WHITBREAD, on the Order of the Day for the second reading of the " Wellington Pen. sioit Bill," said, that irirderstanditig that a Petition from the City of Loudon had been that day pre sented to the House, against the Bill for granting a Pension to Lord Wellington, he trusted that the Right Honourable Gentleman would see the pro priety of net pressing the second reading on that day. • The CITANC.ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER confessed, that he could not possibly see the ne cessity of any such forbearance. He should therefore move that the Bill bestow read a second time. On this question being' put frbm the Chair, Mr. WHITBREAD said, that he was sorry to trespass upon the time of the House. He had al. ready occupied too large a portion of their attention and, perhaps, wearied out their indulgence in deli. awing at full, upon a former occasion, his opinions upon the merits of the late campaign in the Penin. sills. Ho should not now re.statc thoseopiniona, but content himself with referring the !Louie to the consideration of the Petition that had that day been presented to them from the Corporation of the City of London. The objections to the grant in question were put In so plain, clear, full, and satisfactory a manner, as could not f..il of making a serious impression upon the mind of every unprejudiced man. Hu thought, too, that even those who thought more highly of the services of Lord Wellington than he did, might have very different notions as to the lavish expen diture of the public money ;. they were not merely to consider whether Lord Wellington deserved that remuneration, but whether it ought to be derived to him from the public purse ? A near relative of the Noble Lord had, on a former night, favoured theta with a statement of his private means, .which, though not of splendid munificence, was yet, he thought, such as proved that there was no neces sity to press further, in the present instance, upon the . public burthens. One million of money was to be voted towards carrying on the war in Portu gal ; the result, as yet, of all our efforts its that quarter was, that tho Junta was driven to the for tress of Cadiz. lie thought that, under such cir cumstances, such a Bill ought not to be hurried through any of its stages. On these grounds he should oppose the second reading. Sir JOHN NEWPORT rose, merely to make, in addition to the observations that had been made by his Hun. Friend, ono remark that it had not occurred to him to make—it was this, that in consequence of the late melancholy fate of a much. respected and justly valued friend, an occasion had presented itself to Ministers amply to remunerate the services of Lord Wellington, without making any additiou •to the public burtheirs. [hear, hear !] •No sootier, however, had the lamented fate of his reg retted friend (Mr. Eden) been ascertained, than the Tellership 'of the Exche quer was conferred upon a person, of whose ser vices Ministers might have had such an opinion as to think if he fought no - battles abroad, he had at least fought 34.)M);( at home. He thought that the Bill should not be now pressed,' if it was only in common resin& to the Petition of so respectable a body as the Corporation of the City of London---a Petition that put the question in the clearest and simplest poincof view. He admit. ted the gallantry of Lord Wellington, but thought this a question not involving merely the considers. tier) of his merits. lie regretted that the unques tinned and unquestionable merits of a lamented 0 Meer had not been more attended to. He thought that the glurious service's of the immortal Hero of Corunna had not yet beca answered by the public gratitude as they ought to have been.- It/oar s 'hear !1 • . hlr. HUTCHINSON spoke, in terms of high eulogium of the general nature of the military ser. vices of Lord Wellington. • Mr. HENRY MARTIN expressed hie surprise that the very important and pressing observation made by the Right Honourable Baronet, on the filling up the vacancy unite Tellership of the Exchequer l had not been thought worthy of some reply from any of his Majesty's Ministers. lie felt satisfied, that if Ministers had advised his Ma jesty to confer that place upon Lord Wellington, there was nut a man in that douse who would have questioned the propriety of the oppuinttnent. With respect to the Gentleman upon whom that appointment had• fallen, he believed' that his ser vices in behalf of the poblie were yet to b 9 made known. . Sir WILLIAM CURTIS said, that there was no man who felt a higher sense of respect for the Corporation of the City of London than ho did ; but however he respected their opinions, he could not implicitly sacrifice his own. lie expressed himself in terms of unqualified praise', in speoking of the services and military qualities of * L'ortl Wel lington; and valuing those services as be did, he could not think that they were oven•ated by the • epmparatively paltry grant of aCeOOO a year. The question being thee loudly called fur,. the "" • ' . . • • . . gallery was cleared for a division, when chore ap peared for the second reading— Ayes - Noes - . 01 majority —7O. On Our. re.adinission, we found the Ikon is Committee on the ARMY ESTIMATES. Lord PALMERSTON, after a few prefatory observations, iu which ho claimed the indulgence of the House,. pwmised to trespass upon it as shortly as possible. He proceeded to recapitulate the digerent heads of the estimates, which he stated in all to amount to twenty.one. He proceeded through them, one by one, shew log as ha went along the changes, if any, made in the respective Departments with which they were severally connected, and the increase or decrease that resulted from that change. The first wide of the twenty.one heads he stated to be that of the , Land Forces. He said, that the ge neral rule in fixing the establishment was where the effecting fall short of 400 mcn. The catab, lishment of the whole was fixed at 400. There would be found an increase un this establishment,.. owing to the transfer to the Commissariat Depart-, ment, of the supplying the bread and meat to tho men. There was also a reduction ih consequence of the abolition of the agency of cavalry mon.— The next article was that of the Cavalry. Here there was a reduction caused by the dismount. ing of twenty men in each ,troop. Under the head of Household Troops there was a decrease in numbers of 720 men, and in expellee of 41,2191. Under the head of Dragoon and Dragoon Guards; there was a decrease in numbers of 486 men, and in expellee of 262,2301. This great sav ing was owing to an arran,geinent by which Troop Quarter,:nosters were discontinued, and Serjeant majors substituted in their place. Under tire head of the unnumbered corps, there was a de crease in numbers of 1,237 men, and an expellee of 49,7211. Under the head of Garrison Bat talions, there was a reduction of two Battalions, and a saving of 39,3171. Under the head of the origina lly of Waggon Train, which consisted of 12 troops, it would he found that live of those twelve had been discontinued ; f o r, however use ful in forei gn service, the establishment was thought to be uallecessarily large while remaining . at home; under this head, of the Royal Waggon Train, there would be found to be a saving of 123,4331. The next head was that of the Barrack. Artificers at Gibraltar, but that ices not in this year's items. Under the head of Manx Finical/les, there was a reduction of 317 men: Under these tWo last heads would be found a saving in the one of 13,8541. and in the other of 4,4731. So much for the decreases. With respect to the increases, tiro first was that of 27,7531. in consequence of the addition of field officers. There was also an in. crease of 113,0-201. to make good the losses sus. tailed ill the services in Spain and South America, as also on account of the increased allowances to regiments et home, and the indulgence to officers in the remittance of duties epee wines. Un der the head of Land Forces, the increase of men was 127 men, anti the increase of expence was 98,4991. The next head was that of the East In. dia Regiments, 'the charges of which were defray. ed by the Company. The it,ext head Was the Troops and Ceinpanies • Recruiting for the East India Regiments; here th e r e was a s ma ll i ncrease of 3471. Under the head, of the Embodied Mili tia, there was an increase in men of 501, and in expence ,of 150,7661. Under the head of Staffs, Garrisons, there was an increase of 21,2171. ; this increase was not owing to the Staff. There was also an increase in consequence of the new ar. rangements for putting the Chaplains of the Army on a better footitig ; every person appointed an AraiyChaplaiii must first havehis lestinionians slgis- . ed by either of the two Archbishops or the Bishop of London; after eight years service he may retire. on half pay of ss. a day, or if he continues in the service, his payis to be =ream' to sixpence a day, wail it amounts to full pay., The decrease of Su. pernumerary Officers amounted On expence to• 14201. , Under the head of Public Departments Us the Pay Office,t here was an increase of 112721. and in the War Office of 8,8651. making under this. head an increase of 21,8971. There was a lies' patation of the two Departmerits for examining. Accounts and carrying on Correspondence, and the addition of three Superintenclants and. 24 Clerks. As to the Army Pay. Lists in the Of. .fice of the Examiner of the Army Accounts, there welt a saving to the Public of the whole salary of erne Office-z• Mr. Moore, late Deputy Secretary of War, had retired upon a salary of 18001.; Mr.' Merry, the Purveyor of Coals to the Garrison of Gibraltar, was appointed to succeed, on the con dition of hit giving up altogether that employntent, "which is since abulisliud. In the Quarter. Master. •Gerieral'a Office an increase of 80771. In the tAliany-ftletlical . Hoard - flt2t. This - Board was to' 4 itudergo a change; a Committee had sat upon this subject, and the result of their deliberations was, to recommend the establishment of another Board,' consisting of one Direefor.General and three prin. cilia! Inspectors, but to be excluded from all private practice, which the present members are notexcluded from. In consequence of tliis exclusion, their sa fare musthe raised. Of this establishment the in creaseywilld be 21,8371. • The rest of the items we will just recapitulate : Chelsea—lncrease of Out-pensioners 535, expence 81,5921. ; of the 200,0001. giveo in as uaclaiined Prize. Money, 14,0001. had been claimed; and of the remaining 102,0001. 100,0001. was taken to be applied to this feud. Widows' Pensions; an increase of 6,6111. Volunteers, a decrease of 131,2581.-- Front the discontinuance of the Corps of Local Militia who had transferred their services, there was in clothing an increase of 25,0001. Local Mi r e !ilia 576,1531. Foreign Corps, men 975, cape - 14,7701. Royal Military College 40,9721. dike: concluded his detail by stating, that the total is. crease 'mounted to 129.7381• ; and that the te* decrease amounted to tll l l2ol. !geeing a sus tef 736,9921. for gross savms, and in all a sum . • total Of• 952,0921. Ile stated, that we had. 600,000 men in arms, anti that If we added tliv Navy, we had actually noel actively engaged in the service of the countr y e• 7 *'llll‘, 17C6-414 ' • „ *±,`,: • rr • • : • IC S r C her oh] "theeare i : gratulated the Heide and the Countr ressy ebUndant proofs of t i t h o e it u to n jEuxpire, which, might 'be said to have • • i c:i t d h e i l d o ir d ec es t troy . thetn. agreed wi t h rt : that by avr to lion. Gentleman on the poor, that au never stood in a* more proud or glorious troy , Asa it now did. t ai e General GASCOIGNE took' this op' p othl . of complaining of a variety of 0ppre4,,i,,,,. sr were increasing every y ear , and which i w n h d i e c od h , the Officers of the Army labou . r eal itb likely still to do so. It would surpr i se the itf to be informed that Officers of the Army 41' vi , nerally speaking, loss pay now thou they b* a Cots, ii ant son, but shilling for sia.pence fur ltc the year A 16 . t i o l i e t a me n t I thisolte no i thtn en day, new he had only 15s. 3d. deducting tilt come T. • A Major had th e n 14 s , now ht 14s. 6d. A. Captain had lO s . new be Os. 6d. The others, to be sure, had ncr a Lieutenant had then ss. I Id. n ow he a o e s ne 1 1 tl An Ensign had 3s. 8.1. now he had 4 1 . At the time alluded to, the • salary o f tary at War was.9,os. per day ; now, lie bad d o ubt, it was nidltiplied ten limes. Th e 1; 4 Secretary had then 7s. tid, per day ; now, h e lieved, hu had as malty [mods ae• he had t shillings. During this period, Major Grill, h a d received no addition; and the only seemed to present itself, as accounting fur this' consistency, was, that they were not repte,Z nt as Secretaries at War had been, iii that H ouse. The Honourable General vroceeiled to anemia!' number of other grievances under which oi. in the army laboured, aiul 'stated that the s. proposed to be allowed them for wine, not !a. more than at the rate of 255. a year fur each I ce z c o uld not Ie ... ) 11 ‘ i v i E nk4tll felt d yreeii i i: l ,-d l: Lord G. L. Gr i ointed at., .statement he had heard. Ho hail trusted -burdens of the public, as conn ec t e d w i th At Estimates, would have been alleviated to a .greater degree. He did nut think (hie items been looked into with a sufficiently scrutinizing Ile was of opinion that the practice of buying the cavalry, horses at tWir years old, by is means the expellee of keeping them till they of use, often exceeded tog'. ought to ha awAy. The Waggon' Train too, instead of reiruccil, ought to be done away entirety. Manx corps was of no use; . the Officers lowed other avocations, and the prinks *: labourers; yet they had full pay, as if they efficient regular troops. The City blilitit, y, the Tower Hamlets, whose services were cx tremely limited, lie thought were not of real oft lity. For the home district there were two rals—the Duke of Cambridge and Lord , • I field, who had 44,000 or £5,000 a year looking after 2,400 men: There was •a Honourable General in that House who he surprised was not ashamed to hold his district; in Scotland, to 11,000 men there were eleven :tends. All these things, he thought, required,te looked into. Mr. PERCEVAL stated that it could nut he lei that Government had been inattentive to-any u . the points referred to by his Noble FricnJ rM spoke last. It was no doubt the easiest way • order to produce econiony, to do entirely a such parts of a system as seemed to require** ment ; but lie conceived that this weght'tei les trua with caution. Lord G. L. GOWER. explained. General TARLETON, alluding to an ration of a Noble Lord (E s ord G. IL. aim asked why he shim. be ashamed to •buld a • •• atiun after having been SI .years in the sesrriq ilivhad been second in Coentflitild in 111044 ad aftaegaining the good wilt of ibis inhabitants : lid been, scut into itsectivity, thoraby, as he cl ceived it, being disgraced, andment to Sibrl Ld laugh.] II . Mr. if LJSKISSON felt disappointed at the itt tiniates now submitted to then Clouse, every ilea of which ought to have been fixed with 1.110 I'the strictest economy. A considerable diaiiiinnolt in our ex peuditure Was essential, or rather was at .di•ipertsible to the safety of the country. Thit could only be effected uy retisiun cud retrench. scent. lit order to sliew the necessity art called for economy, the lion. Member stated the growth of our revenue—the net proceed; of its produce . was, itt 1762, only by the year 1792 m , notwithstanding the at' industry of Mr. Pitt to promote retrenchment, it ruse to 16 millions; and, in the year 1809, 4 ' amounted to 60 Millions. Thus, in the cons of 27 years, our revenue had advanced no less than' sit-fold. With this statement before the Cowa n . tee, he was sure, that every Gentleman mint be fl tisfied of the propriety of devising every postibld means to reduce our expenditure. It was ohviaas that there must be a limit to taxation, and the p licy of considering this subject iii due time was tea • cibly urged by the systein of the enemy, whew hostility 'was principally aimed at our Oslo; The objects and character of our enemy, .4' 41 , rendering the restoration of peace so problonsti• cal, it peculiarly behoved us so to husband utir re. sources as to be prepared f u r a long period of He was aware that it might be said, that Ili;`was not a time at which it was proper tu_ dwell upon the difficulties of the country. B er l he differed from those who might advance that el: : section. - For in his opinion the wisest way "!. fully to exhibit the situation of the counltir . 7 order that adequate pr e visi o n Might be seasue4 made to meet the dangers which ineaaccil 4- • I ' I first objects to which liu wished to direct ths atig 2 ' den of the Conitnittee, with a mew to sal) were the Army and Navy. In beth °weeder? . mentsi be conceited th a t considerable Hue" ; nietiansight be made.- Almnst livery Imiti of oil" a applilredto esecailire. lre Iliad a much la r g 'navel force now, than 'wheeethie many 444 a lllnt co powtst to epsomite', and' our army 1.45 11 % than any itiltatAlia to probable pecessltY called ( y o larger cutisideretdytie,in an titular ise __me *hosier.. e was very generally erpeined. A reduction is nl~ army wae the more sele jn his mied, as WC numerous a I ..i‘ (Nei he boil ;It act ,131