The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1807-01-24 00:00:00

municated in the languaere recorded upon the Jour nal; of the House. Indeed, whatever may be the merits of the return made, or whatever may be the warmth of the Petition itself, nothing could equal the novel and unconstitutional doarine of the Hon. Members to whom he had alluded. After some further observations from Lord Howick, Lord Stanley, Mr. Herbert, and Mr. Spencer Stanhope, the Petition was tecrived, and ordered to lie on the 'fable. NAVAL SUPPLY. On the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Naval Supply being read, Mr. Hosuouse in the Chair, , Mr. GRENVILLE zone—" Sir, It is now my duty to propose to the consideration of the Com mittee, the nature and detail of the estimates at pre sent laid on the table. The natural order of pro ceeding would undoubtedly have been, to propose the vote, the notice for which 1 had the honour pre itusly to give, for an addition of 10,000 seamen to oar naval strengh, was there not a reference made a trw nights past, to the propriety of having a second one on that subjea. A reflection was thrown 3:lt upon that circumstance, and a Nobl e Lord was pleased to charge to precipitance in bringing cepa lately, what it appeared to him should have been ef feeled at one and the same period. However, I trust, it will filly appear to the Committee, that this charge was unfounded, and that the conduit pursued, was the usual and ordinary . method of proceeding. In voting the Naval Estimates at the beginning of a Session, it has been the invariable poultice of the House never to put any check upon the recruiting in that branch of national strength, and whatever may be the precise number of the seamen affually employed, it is still usual to found the Estimates upon the last return. Tl , us, the Lo t. mates voted previous to the 31st sit December, were taken en the average of the n.o ,tu of Septem ber, and hence the reason of two distina Motions upon the subjeet. The last Estimates submitted to the Committee, were taken on the average of the three quarters, namely, 120,000 men, whilst the return of the last quarter, afforded an addition of six thousand. Having stated the history of the transaction, and it bring a matter of pleasing 'arc hon, that a considerable increase had, within the last five months, taken place in the establishment of our naval strength, and as there exists every probaLility of that increase being poigressi;e, 1 cannot conceive any apology necessary in calling upon the Commit tee for an additional vote of 10.009 seamen, to tli•, former grant of 1120,000. From these explana tions, which, in justice to myself, I felt bussi:d to make, I trust the Committee will be of opinion that there was not the slightest ground fur the im putation to which I have allude,d. I shall now trouble the Committee on the nature of a proposed improvement, which it strikes me will prove a strong stimulus to invite and encourage those Mem bers who have had the opportunity or cutiosity of directing their attentions to an examination of the naval accounts, still further to persevere in so useful and necessary an exertion. It wou.d perhaps be my duty to rest upon the general ex - planatien I have given, and having proposed the reanlu'ioas, to content myself with answering such questions as Honourable Gentlemen may think proper to put to me. But I am desirou to sub. nit ti few observations, which I ceitainle would not presume to offer to the Committee upon the strength of my own ju•lgment alone, was it not supported and reguoited by the maturedand well deduced opinion of Ifni Majesty's Government. Indeed, it most be apparent to member id the House, that a confu.ion and inexplicable irregulari ty were invariabiy attached to the manner in which the naval accounts have been produced ; that toe accounts were incapable of affording that per spicuity of detail, which the magnitude of the sub jea, and toe great espence nl supporting that branch of defence, made p-cuhiarly desilabie. leet use be not understood as arrogating to myself any degree of merit, iii the proiudion of the Estimates I have the honour to propose, or that I ern inclined 4, censure those, whose duty it has hoen, its former Administrations. to manage this branch of our po licy. All it as my intention to impress upon the Committee, upon has point, is, that it is truly im possible not to see the want of facility in inquiring into the details of so multifarious and complicated a concern. A great source of the confusion has arisen from the wale of arithmetical reasoning, acted upon in the regulation of the Estimates. —thus, in a vote of one hundred and twenty thousand men, the usual average for each men is seven founds, together with the ordinary, ex traordinary, and Transport listiniaies. lois Aver age ,um of seven pounds poor man, will not be found sufficient to defray the general dethand of naval expenditure, and the con.equence is a great increase of the naval debt. Even in the detesied account, in which this proportion of seven pounds is granted to each man, and which is constituted as an aver rage in the Estimates produced, great obscurity and uncertainty prevail. On the score of wages and victuals, an accuracy and exallness may be ca rded ; but c.alculatlng die wear 4nst teat of ships, is an effiot so very extensive anddillicult, that nume roue an ; almost insurmountable obstacles arise. Slot ss.i.n use eJvantag. s of a clear and accurate ♦ :;o:nin itioii are considered, it will appear au °Neel of necessity, that the attention of Govern • :t, and of this House, shotild be diligently ap plied, as the result will be a just appropriation of she expenditure to the demand, a result of the highest value at all tunes, but most particulatly at this, when economy is strength and defence, and which cannot be sieled upon without steadily pursu ing the athintiz and details of every extensive branch of our policy. Was this desirable principle brought into prat - bee, a great puhlie benefit would be achieved, a great orength would be communicated to the country, by convincing the people, that every attention is given to • the expenditure of that looney, which they are inclined so cheatlully to contribute. But, from the nature of some dis zioa heads of the naval service, it is impossible to perfealy plain and intelligible. Inc' . ships may be so differently affected by battles, and other accidents, that a very obscurity must uctavoidably prevail in the s which such refer. Yet the great un which prevails in these branches, is an ad reason why perspicuity arid clearness should se ail his othez departments. I have addressed the Committee upon this topic, with greater casfidence, than if the opinion had totally proceeded from myself, , I do feel strongly ineined to hope, that, for the future, Estimates will he, pre sented to this Ilnuse,capable of afording very full and adequate information on every item of the accounts. *I here are some articles and branehes of the naval system, which, in my mind, are capable of being r.ndered much more intelligible and satisfaaery than they generally are ; such as the wages to offi cers and seamen, the half pay, the sea lencibles, the signal ar d telegraeh department; pilotage, pensions, and superanuations ; wages to workmen and labourers in the dock-yards; ships built by con tra& in merchants' yards; hired vessels; and, lastly, the most important, and one I once thought in capable of being comprehended within an accurate account, but which 1 now think, if not in the first, may be justly calculated upon in two or three years, I mean that branch of the naval system which is designated the purchase of all kinds of stores to replenish the nasal magazines in the dock. yards and several ports, and which is usually esti mated at the sum of three millions six hundred thousand pnunds ; under the same head there now remain but bills sif exchange, and those articles which are denominated incidental expences. A more accurate detail is certainly necessary in the Viaualling and Transport Boards. Upun a full view of the case, I am convinced, that when the various offices are dire ted to prepare the Es. timates in the manner I have described, it will be in the power of every Member of the House to turn to them, as if to an index. • There is one chMge rather unaccountably introduced in the Naval Es. timates, I mean the sum of money am, tinting to more than half a million. for the tepply of the Army in garrisons abroad. It strikes me, that such a fare expenditure should not be it.cluded within e items of a naval act:num. There remains but one circumstance more, on which I shall beg leave to trouble the Committee ; it refers to the sum ne cessary to liquidate the amount of six months pay "to the Comissioners of Naval Review. Upon that establishment I never have delivered an opinion ; of the Members who compose it, it lothoves me to speak with every mark of respect. They, un dotibte.lly. are Gentlemen of great experience, pooessing a great and extensive knowledge of naval subje&s, and capable of imp .thing useful and important ingot nation. Yet I mu.t be allowed to say, that the nature of their coma, union, and the peculiatity of the Commission, has produced no inconsiderable degree of inconvenience. This In convenience did net certainly exit, when the Noble Lord (Barham), wt o was at the head of the Com mission cf Naval Revision, also presided over the Admiralty ; but the moment ti is conneCtion ceased, it most be evtdart to the Committer, that the in convenience began to operate ; for wt en the Com missioners had published their Reports, from their being printed, they consequently became a gruun d of public discussion. One Net, as a proof of the inconvenience, whidi I have attributed to the Com mission. Among the many suggestions the Coen missionets hied thought piper to make, and hints they had thrown our, there was one regarding the increase of the general establishment of pay, with respect to the Nay y. The corsevence was, that ' general opinion had p re v a il e d thorough the Navy, that the Increase had took n place, and that they had a right to receive, what the Rennet might have recommended as right to he carrel into execution. A commit. icatioit was lately made by that Com mission, that the limited period of their existence was coming to a Hose, accompanied with a strong desire to centii tie their labour for a few menthe. Under tfes view of the cate, and with the assurance that at least the lapse of sit mot the will enable them tally to arrange the duties far which they were ap. pointed, I did comply with the wish so strongly manifested by them, and have row ventured to pro pose this addition of the Committee, tor the purpose of lavidating the salaries of the Com.n.ssioners of Naval Revision roi six months. Having Sir, I fear, too long trespassed upon the attention of the Com mittee, I have only to request tneir indulgence, and shall now proceed to move, tt That it is the resolu tion of this Committee, that an additional vote of 10,000 seamen, including 2110 royal marines, be granted to His Majesty, for the year 1307." Mr—JOHNSTONE could not suppress his opi nion, that a great detert must exist somewhere, when a Lard of the Minh alty was unable to as certain the amount of tee naval strength, and was ignorant of the increase, at a time when the increase exceeded 3,000 asen. Something should be done to remedy this deft& ; the end would perhaps be sil -1 awered by having the returns more frequent. In the detail of the improved plan he fulls agieed; he only regretted that the Hon. Gentleman had not pursued it in the present Estimates. He also hoped, that the expenditure would for the future he placed in eontractistinection to the lestimate,thatGentlemen may be enabled to ascertain from the comparison, in what manner the puldm money had been expended. With respell to the Naval Cosomivion, he could not see the propriety of continuing a Board fur the pulpine of proposing what it was the determination of His Majesty'. Government not to execute. Mr. ROSE thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, for the clearmss Wi.n which he developed to the Committee his intended plan of improvement in malting up the Naval Accounts. His apprehen sion was, that it would be impassible to carry it into effeel. With respe& to the branch of stores, he knew, from past experience, that the account could be made out in a few days, and that, with these properly detailed, every end would be answered.— As to the item of charge for tie army serving in garrisons abroad, the reason of its being com prehended within the naval service was, that the supply of provisions for that army was the objet of a contract between the Government and Gen tlemen generally Members of the House. After some time, it was fonnd that the competition be tween the different Contraatins, raised the price of the articles; and it was then resolved, that the con tra& should be confined to one person, to be made an item in the Naval Estimates. Mr. PEItCL•VAL coal not understand the dis tinelions made by the Hon. Gentleman relative to the Boards of NAval Commission, at this period, and when Lord Barham was at the head of the Admiral ty. It was the duty of all Commissioners Appointed by the House, or by the Crust. n, to commue.icAte their suggestions, and pt551:134% their . repot4 ; and it by • no means followed, that Itemise the Government did not think proper to carry these suggestions into effed, that therefore the Commissioners were wrcng, or the Government right. Bus with teepee. to the present case, it 6 , 1' hoard of Naval Revision was inro ,ecnient, he askiid, continue it ? and if it was coilveni—: and useful, why limit it to six month s ? This sy st em of c•mitid required much explanation from the Right lion. Gentleman at the head of the Admiralty. Admiral MA R KH A M ohserved, that the Return which he wished should appear before the House, was not yet made, namely, a Retorts of Repairs done to Ships in the Mer.liatits' as well as the King's Duck Yards. fie had been told, that it was impos sible such an accou a could he made tip ; it did not appear, however, to him, chat there was much diffi culty in the matter. Mr..PERCEVAL and Mr. ROSE severally fur ther e xplained. Mr. GRENVILLE, in reply, declared himself ashamed of dwelliog su long upon the present ques tion; but he mast take the Idierty of making a tew observations, in ansiser to some which had fallen from Gentlemen on the other side of the house ; who asserted, that ih bringing forward the present Estimates, he had done that which was nut the best to be dune in su,:h case; he could only say, he had done exadly what WAS unitormly dune upon all fs finer similar occasions. lie had been also asked. why he did not make a more accurate calculation To which he answered, he made it horn that which has hitherto been the uniform pradice. It Iva* not, therefore, fair to stateellit's as a point Of negligence in him, because it was the mode, uniformly adopt ed, for years past. With resped to the Commis . of Naval Revision, he had also been re proached for continuing their services, and accused of inconsistency, for not discharging them, after saying, they were no longer necessary. He wished to know, what inconsistency there WAS in continuing them, for a few months longer, in order that they might wind up their accounts? Mr. JOHNSTONE of•ain, in explanation, ob served, that the Hight Hon. Gentleman had made an 011 , 11•sion in his speech, that he thought nee soity to remark. About three or four years ago, thew were given to under , tand. by a Noble Loid, then La the head of the Aouttralty, that a saving of one third or one.fon,rtb in the expenditure would be made. The Right lion. Gentleman might have stated how far that improvement had been carried into effed by that Noble Lord. Mr. ROSE again rose, and produced a paper, from which he read a variety of items relative to Navy expenditures, front which he argued, that :he arrangements of the Right lion Gentleman ( Mr. Grenville) were net new, but that, on the contrary, the paper which he then adverted to, had been um fo-mly drawn up f r the last seven or eight yea's. lVithout meaning to impute any blame to the Right Hon. G-ntlernan, he wished to keLoir 1 ..ow it I,ap pencil, that copi. s of these papers were not 1u: rushed fur the information of the house ? Mr. GRENVILLE again replied, that he had laid the papers hefor.: the House in the most intelli gible way that his mind could suggest ; and the Ht - .arse could not be supposed to bring any . ensure upon what had hem) furtnetty do, e. Those ?s e ers were prepared hmu the documents in the psoper office. and he could not stet any such arc, tsar a s the Rea ht thin. Gentleman now produced. Was he, therefore, to he told, that this was a matter of re proach against him, because the Right lion. Gen tleman had gut such a paper in his pocket and f e (Mr. Grenville) had not the means of laying such a aincument before the House t A great political mea sure had called for certain documents, and he had recourse to the usual and ordinary modes of pro. cueing them ; and he had now to lament, that lie had found reproach, where be had endeavoured to insure approbation. Mr. RUSE declared, he never meant to cast any relleaions on the Rain Hon. Gentleman ; these accounts were annually made up, but he admitted they had never been laid before Parliament. Mr. VAN.if :TAR r said, that as long as he had had the honrmr of aeling in the Treasury, he had never seen such accounts as those produced by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rose) Sir JOHN hi.WPOItT begged leave to ask, in what capacity the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Rose), became possessed of those papers ? or in what situation was he when these accounts were made out ? He could not here help rental king, that had these papers remained, where they should have been. his Right lion. Friend woold not have to ask for them at this time. He was entry to say, it was now too mach the habit with slime gentlemeo, re• titing horn office, to consider these kind of papers as tie wive:. property of individuals ; this was exemplified in his own case; for when he had fit st the `honour of coming into the situation be then held. all the necessary and important papers were gone; nor could he procure one document that could pos sibly a•sist him in the discharge of his duty. Mr. ROSE answered. that the paper was his owa private property. and hid been copied at his own expcnce, and der his own use. Mr. Re IHVSN wished to know, where the Right Hon. Gentleman had procured this paper ' Mr. ROSE replied, that it was the copy of a Re turn from the Navy Office. He was not the keeper of the papers, nor was he responsible for them. The Resolutions were then read and agreed to, as follow : That there be raised for His Majesty's Service, 111,C011 ad. diuoaal Seamen, including 2003 11 , ryal Marines. The following sums were then voted for the above purpose : For %V ages . . . 1..241. 1 00 V tetti•ls . 247,0011 • • • Wur and Tear . • 193,000 • • Ordnance Sea Service 330.100 . . ordinary Services, and Ilalf-pay . 1,133,4'34 • Ship Burning, sc. ▪ 11,134.'03 Hos of Transports • 1,5.1.1,u 00 . . Sick and W. coded ▪ 300,000 • Prisoners of War, Expenees . 3u0,000 Mr. VANSIT CART then moved the following Sums, for Miscellaneous Services for the year, viz.: L. a d. Superinten•lant of Aliens • . 6,1133 0 0 Expenees of Ilueureet pollee Office . tt e .loo 0 n Convicts • 51,330 0 0 . . Extra Charge for Contingerielee in the three Secretaries' of State O&M . 13.000 0 0 • Extra (7/large for Messeegers . 11,000 ,4:1 0 ',vermin and Una Secret Service, . . 173.000 0 0 Law Charges • • . 23,444 ,I 0 -v /ors &mimeos open Criminal Pr , weutions . 3.A0111 00 Paid Siserith of Counties, for the Conviction of C Felons • 11,800 • 0 Giant. to Ftirich Clercs en* Emigrants, ltd. 1s SP la v. 'To make gmid Delicieticios sawe . 1.44.4 ft 4. Protestant D.ssentiqg Miuntcrs . 1 0 04 • • ' Minneets ash' Vordan • 1,11 s 4 S..atot,es 1,934 4 Manes for Olken of Stith Houses of Perlis inset, Serjsant at A•tus, &c. . 5,250 0 • W , •rks done to 1):,01 it , USAS of Parliament, the Spasker's Mouse, are . 50,760 0 0 To make good the 'awe, and for Works ime. undertaken . Miff° 0 • Pillskitig Military Roads . • . The House having resumed. the Report was or dered to be breught up on Monday. Lord HOWICK moved, " That the Committee appointed fir watching for precedents relatise to Members expelled, should be at liberty to sit, notwithstanding any adjournment of the lii-use." o:dered. Mr. ROSE expressed a wish that the Committee ' urn the Arms. Evint.tes 'melt be postponed. Lord HENRY PETIT and Lois! HONICI: opposed :itch a measure, considering the business of great importance to be gone through. whiult they thought, ft oat the full discussion which it had , dergone up•in a former night, it could cot tow occupy much if the i:me of die Hamm. Mr. JOHNSTONE: pin it as a matter of favour, to be conferred upon the Geod. men upt.n I.i. side of the House, (the Oppostion,) to postpoee matter. Mr. VANSITTART was proceeding to make seine ohservetions, vibe* the SPEAKER reminded tl:e H use that there was no question before them. The order of the Jay for going into a Committee upon the Army Es:imatas, being read Sir JAMES PULITNIY roia, and observed, that it would have bean much better fur the public service that this sulied should be postponed 3 vet, as it vow to be resumed, he siiould trouble the House, but for a short time, after the length of dos cussinn whit h had already taken place upon other lesions. The Right Honourabie Gent!cruan (:• r. seindham), must have ezpefied ‘i.rne great wt.. cis' frosts hit plan, ahich he had so seemly re commended the House to adopt; but for his part he could not see that there was any intro.- diate supply of men resulting L out it ; but. au 11 dmtrary, he thiiii )c ht it would be the cause f a considerable dirrnnution of she regular army ; : and it was . - .omplet,ly established by the estimate and returns, that tie ad.:ition had been made this year to the army; and if this measure had never • ts.en adopted, lie was cuntident cur army would have been much more numerous now. The present time was admitted t^ be the moment when we she uld have a large army. and it was an established. point, that A great army was the greatest object $ and he mu.t say, that had the lot mer plans been persevered in, we should now be in a roach better situation. The T:aning Bill he wished, if i: was ol fer anything, should hc put into execuuon, it it was otherwise, it was better to re;eral it alto. get her. Sit JOHN DOYLE.-." I agree with the. Hon. Baronet, the: it would have been better to have de tiered this question for a more convenieet time; hut such an argument came very badly it im his side of the House (the Opp 'sition)44ind, indeed, it ap pears to time. that the geotlemei have rather been speaking agair;st time, than any thing else. But first, co the point of the Hon. Baronet, who says. we should have a good army, and argues, that the Additional Force Bill would effnfl this. Wity, Sir, of all the measnies that could be imagined, it was the worst, and did every thine hot that which it pee. tested to do ; and, after le months experiment, then gentlemen said. it is gr:i..p, to be mended. Tuts puts me in mind ofa story til one of our P.iets, who, being irascible, as writ al deformed, used to say-- I' God mend me." When a friend observed. ' 4 it would be better to make twenty new one', than mend nne like you." But they were going to met it. 'Phis also reminds me of a Priest's mai I. %0.. when called for any purpose, was just going to do it ; arid when her master asked her one day, bad sire washed his books (in order to try her) she, as usual, answered, Just going to do it.' Or, like the Duke of Wharton's puppies, they never opened their eyes till they were goisig to be drowned. Po speak more seriously. if indeed thu question is worth a ,erious thought, the Getulemeu hive calculated rang. for they have taken the ~umbers raised %mete tine Additional Force Ad. and those enlisted into the Regular Army, together. With regard to the plan proposed by the Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. Wind ham) it certainly would produce a certaiuredgraduel supply to the army. But I should say sorneming on canting to this side of the House (the Oppositicie side) when I teean to speak against the measures 05 tote Gentlemen; the fad was, that side of the I louse the Ministerial) is always so full, I came here in order to get a good place (is leapt). hut I do assn., the Getlemeo, that I am not come iato their camp to spy the nakedness of the land. Bat at this time, would recommend to these Gentlemen to adopt the words of Talleyrand, upon a late occasion, emu me Jonaartes pas la a 1,74 d !wish). Howe,. r %tiling I may be to Jo justice to the eloquence of these Gentlemen, I canuot but lament that their opposition should, at such a moment, be em. ployed in obsuuding the unanimity so essential to the interests of this county, for surely there revel was a petiod in toe annals of our history, when unanimity was so imperiously demanded ; for a nation, no more than a house divided, cannot stand against itself.' But lam not so romantic, as to suppose political history shall be for ever buried its oblivion. I only hoped it would have been al lowed to sleep till the great object of national secu rity was complete. I shall rot follow the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) in his inflated calculation. nor enter into that infinite diverging series, which, by it; rapid accumulation, was to over whelne the country with expence, in providing for its brave defenders; a calculation which would deprive t: e worn quilt veteran of a chance of spending, in calm repose, the evening of that day, which he had dedicated to his country, and bring his grey hairs, with sorrow, to the rave. A calculation which stooped to visit tbe.trteclue.l.ll of infirmity, in Chelsea and Kilmainbaia HOi4la, • cakulasion which wanted lambing bulludat i o to stand upon, thereby following the'motie allt • moastration, ascribed by Mr. Locke ti.certain un happy people, who always reason tight from wrong ' principles. lam aware that, in a tree country like this, an Oppoutioo is a wholesome check tiipo bli. •- .o.ct r,caas of of make them repait. of shi be storms, battl great ohscuri • branches to certainty whi recto r. 4r rotor reJ I