The British Press; or, Morning Literary Advertiser. — London, England, 1821-04-13 00:00:00

lied - teen subjected to restrictions oTa similar kind: 'but the Legislature discovered the impropriety of their continuance, and they had been abolished with advantage. h was now discovered that the buyer end 'teller, .the borrower and lender. should be left to iluireliiiirp_sp . l)arttiLts without the interference of the Legislature. T h e melt was sure tolte the *ems tiocoof thei .lakit supply ' fee.tbe public in every au t i de-.8 bt..Ft ihi.. r"..--.7.=.:;.--- • ---.------7— . -----.-: .Mr. cA ica A irr, Telt - diffidence at "Itat7ieg St I;Fs. pose so' great, it . :etts,At'of authority., hat he con fessed, he . eettald,oot tensove his prejudices against •llit Bill.. filicaeaumeirt•wasolat the borrower could not be benefited by the Bill. At-to the case of bread, which ..had bein quoted, he thought it - by 'lament!" tootirtble, to the arguments for the Bill. There was an sone on Weed, stud a maximum was fixed beyond which it was unlawful to raise the price. Tire' law which' iegtilated that ,assire had been re pettiest,: but the .pnblic had derived no advantage from it. Thetiesize, ego a protection to the con sewer—die Vit3te Loos were a protection to the borrower.;. the , commitoy had grown to prosperity wider them t ' it would• perhaps be said, in spite of them.. He would take time to consider the ;augljecT.,„ kind: ecurie . ,to the discussion with his mind Inorrotiompletelyi,Made,iip. Fits main objection to !gl'e Bill' Aellvtlist .at would unsettle all existing 'money transactions; leaders would have their minds thrown, into a state of feverish anxiety to get heck their money, for the purpose of letting it out at a larger ittterest, Mr. RICA RDO thought that the House were con -siderailly obliged-to - the Learned Strjeunt for in troducing this Bill. The question had been melted us though the lender had power to demand and get any rate of int.rrst 'whoever, except restricted by law. But the : borrower would hove es much power to keep Justin the rate of interest as the leader snood& hare to keep it up. Supposing the ergo . turret of the Hun. Member for. IVerelism, as to the 'repeal of 'the bread te!si2e, to be true (which he en tirely doubted), • he dented the priliciple.in theory which had been assuined. The restriction*, when ever imposed, must have been ass improper de viation• fr.n the original principles of free trade. He said, that, the otjections mode to theory would, if adopted, lie a bar to all improvement. For the prirent he wished to take tip no more of the time of the' Ilouie. . He lied great experience in the snooty markets.; he could safely declare, that the laws which the Pill wept to repeal, were a. dead letter, and Wholly inoperative in those markets. Before and rjoce the war the interest of money had been_ under live her cent.; but during the war it rose to seven., and was at one period fifteen per rent. notwithstanding the prohibitions of the law, Air. ROBING made his acknowledgments to the Leitrim& Serjeant for bringing in the 811, 'which was likelY to prove of great benefit to the country. This was the moot proper time for doing so, us tine rite of interest was low. The Bill would have been ropch more objectionable at the time . when thisAftre e .,of, interest was considerably above 5 percent ': .The effect or the existing laws had been very,. pernicious to the landholder during the war—interest was above 5 per cent. The land holder *its, preve t ptcd from borrowing at so high a rate . ; GovErouiesti paid a much higher interest.for , spofrlein . unit t landholder' was driven into the hands bf the ..tiliiirer. The party which would be lie t jedted . inoaLby, the Bill was that of the land- . -bade?" stilt! coiiritr7 Gentlemen who might have -uccii_sio4 f lo kiwonit. • Mr. MONCK said, that the House was indebted tCthe iferysed i Seijeaut far bringing in this Bill. 1 7rtsr ()nay ; were the last remnant of the old, 'lntern If raele gisletion which h a d b een l e f t b y i t os the* AngeeWire for the re g ul a ti on o f th e var i ous nite?ed ri sf: ,ftiere were formerly amazes for bread, beer.stlit wages of labour, and almost every thing. By degrees they had got rid of them all lon the Usury Laws, dnd he trusted tbat the present Bill • wools' rentpyetheni. He maintained that the re peal of . the maize on bread hail produced all the good psopost;d. Never was there so much compd . '. Una in any article, and never had the public been supplied so well and so cheaply. The labouring people hail _been enabled to rat more bread than ever, while they got it at a cheaper rate. [-rive was then given to bring in the Bill. Mr. J. P. GIANT wish e d to k now , as t h ere was a motion for the sec ond reading of the Timber Duties Bill, which was likely ter cows! o• late, if the debate was to be taken on the isemiud'vierliwigme is the Committee' Sir. WALLACE hoped that the House won't] allow the Jlliktil be read it, secomltime, sad take the discussion no Monday, when it would be committed. l Afr. A l p. GRANT said that lie would, on the Report lacing brought 'op, mere for the recommitment of the Bill ; is order talgadinie the fkiisse agate to consider some principles relating to,the Timber Danes, which had not been treated wills fanciest nitration. Idr. J. if. SIITTII brought up a special Report of the Committee_ acpoihted to consider the Petition against the Calfingten-iaietioto. ',bleb stat e d, th at M r. M a b erly had hen soissisiosed to aidesid the Comma i lee, but had been cont pelted to dardivie onsameouns of ill health. Sir.Whitarisl, *yeah:al gentleatao, was brought In the bar; and being interrogated by the SPEAKER, deposed that he bail bees is atieuclance on Mr. /limberly wiihiu the leschalfboisr--Imit he left lion in bed in a state of indii pediroa' from whist. be was not likely v ery soon to recover, se to is be.able lo steed the Committee. Mr. J. ,11,,1, .§Plf-TH then moved, that Mr. Maberly 'be exeusedhr bin num-atteadasee ou the Committee this (Inv, sad that bls furthero)tentlance on the committee be dis. tensed with. - "• - ' - • • • The motiontwllMiieseed ter, Mr. Serjeant (INIILOW mewed for leave to bring in a /lilt to facitieete liswadasission of attoroeys to practise., idler haring attaisred, the degree of B.A. is any of the Universi ties, Thaler's), of 'Ma motion were tt fur leave to bring in a Bill twelier sfid'adit.eld I Acts fur the rtgulatio u of Inanity, aeddotieitnes."—Leave granted. ...111r.forierset.ONSLOW moved fur leave to bring in a Bill • to regulate apasoomices on Sills of F.:change. 'Mr. SC AR I„ElT neui.d.o She mutton. Mr. BA Kt ?ail:aided that the HOT ',Zooid provide against the ere's of iidairdstinduits in the Coot ' f King's Bench, which went towdeprivw the helders of bills of ezi hange of all seen vicy, *kith the mamas of alielieceptors sad endorsers were supposed to pelvt.tio them. Mr. scoisrr adatitod the extent of the alarm while that -decision had gi,eu to the Mercantile interest, bur Itithalthl tkerthere leoulvtiov 'nothing easier than to encore it by the prueblowrof the Nil doing away thereby a mitre. spoodloottoeree of featatoir jratoosystloco was entertained ' by the name forties to the Bill propowd by the Learned Serjesui. •.. , . Mr. V;OAMPIIRLL said a few lords, and the monies was greed to. • ' qplelTll.lFltsATlpff OF ORDNANCE CLERKS. IlbliArgiry tit ristiot 'to make good his motion, . wp Oftre ;of the imOurtance,otthe subject,' and wislOd thift It hid 'fallen into abler bends. He hid I been led to undertake it elueolt involuntarily by ‘C. ••• the inquinet .briltauF!d into the exiiindll3os , OriftedlidiFe. He to offer the Asbiedt" In. two points ,of new :- First, as constitutional question, How far perions holding civil offices at the will of the Government should be allowed to remain in possession of their elt%t ties frinchiiio—Secondly, Flow fur waste and extravagsoce were Jikely to ensue is the attempt which would be made to . use the resources of any one of the depoirtinents, to keep up the influence set ich the heads of those departments might possess? His attention had been particularly culled to the case of the borough of Queeuborough. He call ed to the recollec.ion of the House the observe . lions which he had been induced to submit is few weeks since, during the discussion on the Ordnance Estimate', respecting the freemen of Queenbo rough, who held numerous offices about the esta blishments in and near Sheerness. By the infor mation of papers which bad been laid on the table, he found that every department of time Ordnance .was perverted by electors of Qtreenborough. The most meritorious individuals had been displaced, to make room for their appointments, or to firs.lll - their progress to the superantissation list—that list being clotfly filled with the mimes of freemen of Queenburruigh. The object of his motion was to exclude them from voting at elections, by a similar rule and for the very same reasons which excluded ell other servants of the public in other depart ment; from the enjoyment of the elective pri vile.ge. He found that this n'sll riot Duly the principle, but the practice of the Coortitution. Many statutes had been !leased for the regale-: lion of elections. Ile divided them into three classes—the lst class were for the purpose of detereniniog who should he considered as duly qua lified to be returned as members; time stri class speci fied what pennon were to be precluded from voting; the 3d determin e d agai n st the interference of pit ticular parties being exercised in elections. The principle of all these regulations lie took to be the same, that of guarding and pressmen% the'Houst of Commons from any undue ii,floence, whether of the Crown or of any other party. He took a re.' view of the statutes, commencing with the 7,1) of William and Mary. The Old George 111. was car ried by a considerable majority of that House, end upwards of one hundred Members went up with it to the Lords. It enacted, chap. 41, that no commissioner, collector, supervisor, or power, its the Excise departments, should be allowed to vote. . It enacted the same regulabons for the Customs de partment, and that of the Stamps. The principle .inculcated was the necessity lor exclodia„re all per sons who held offices tit the will of the Crown, or of parties, under the Crown, from voting at elections. Postmasters-General, deputies, and all clerks of post-offices ; masters arid mates of office packets, were excluded fur the same rruson ; land-tax tom missionets, who received no pay, and holders of . patent places were not thudded, because they were considered as heing not subject to the influence of the Croon. lie might be told of the danger and injustice of depriving the people of their elective rights. It was no deprivation of right which he proposed ; it was only a condition that while the parties held civil offices at the will of the Crown; they should forego the exer ci.e of a right which they could not exercise fairly .and impartially. The 22.1 Gem,. 111. had been car ried by 87 to 12, The Bill hail been framed in pursuance of that jealousy will, which the cosistitu non requited the influence of the Crown upon that 1 - lous. to be watched over. The 43 , 1 of Geo. extended the provisions of Ciro. 111. to Ire land, so satisfied wits the Legislature upon expe rience of the usefulness of the latter Act. The sth . and Makty provided *pima soy collector or other revenue officer from makilig use of his office, or otherwise persuading any freeman to give his vote in any particular way. The lith and 13th William 111. extended the same principle to the officers of customs. The 7th Anne extended this principle to the post office ; the I lib Anne to the stamp department, end the lido Anne to the salt and all other departments of the revenue to which the t a uter Acts did not apply. It was nothing new in principle or practice which be sought in re quiring, the o.duattee clerks timid officers to be put on the same footing with those of all the other offices. He trusted that the Bill would he allowed to pass. Various statutes might be adduced so slow the great disposition there always existed to prevent this enormous iuflitence. According to the 5.11 of William and Mary, all Comatissioneis of Revenue were excluded. At that time the iluostion of ex cluding certain persons from Psrliastretri, occupied the public attention considerably. Their object at that day was the same as.hts now, sianiely, to pre vent too many placemen and liett•ioners limn sil ting in that liouse. By the II th and 13th Wihlirn', Commissioners of Excise. Comptrollers, and vari ous other Office's, were prevented from either sit ting or voting fur Members of Parliament ; and tee cording, to the lith of Anne, to which lie preyed the particular attention of the flimsy, all Com rois-ioters, Sub-Commissioner', Comptrollers of the • army account.. Ile ntelitiotied all these *Litotes to chew their extreme anxiety to guard against in fluence. lu fact, Do individual employed in any manner, so as to he influenced directly or indirectly by the Crown, should have a vote.. He had guise through a variety of statutes, in order to ivake him self more intelligille to the llouse.. tie bed er dravoured to posit out, first, theme which regular the persons that shall not vote ; secondly, those who shall not meddle or interfere in the election of a Member ; aml thirdly, those Mho shall not sit. He should How endeavour, baring alrefin the Ono . - ciple, to point out the mower its whirl' this influ ence may be exercisild. • lit 1894 litrtt; was u min ion in the bo.ough of Qaertiborough t sod then there were not oste,tenth th e iturnbisr ul.foreniesi in the borough, holding unit:twin the Ordnance, that there are at present. At that .context there were .only, seventeen licrsolie. In a subsequent. one, when Hunt. and 'Villiers, and Col.eliteliester, were candidates, there were 51t0. The House are not.probably awai t , th a t thr 601110 of all freemen born its Querolsorough ore leers:ten; so that the wives of the good freemen of (a)ingorleorough come from all parts of the country to brie forth yousig freemen to that borough.— (,l present the ',umber of freemen, mid also toe soil. still rela- Aires of freemen, holding ullici a in the 01E1u:ince. the preventive, mid other services, mitounis to 190. (Near, hear,/—Th e Cooporntion of this borough also deserts pa:•tcular utteulion. The worthy giyor or ottion of the ling oysters i manager of gentleman is manger House of Commons. There was also a Mr. Gregg. Who had . coni.iderable control in the borough, and his brother is Rade barge-master. Col. Dickinson, too, who was not born a freeman, through the in fluence of Mr. Gregg has obtained a seat amongst the Corporation, and has become one of the prin cipal managers. Various other officers might be enumerated, to support his assertions. There was tio department that seemed to shun inquiry snore than the Ordnance ; every obstacle slid impedi ment was thrown in the way. But he was deter mined not to give it over, and before the Session concluded he should be able. lie was convinced, to make some discoveries.—/Cheers.)—He could per fectly understand the smile of the Master of the Mint-- Mr. WELL LEY Pout rose to order. lie should wish to know rrotu Mr. Speaker, whether it were trot disorderly to make these personal allu sions. Mr. SPEAKER thought it was not nut of order for au Hun. Member m [mike his observations *is cheers. Mr. WELLESLEY Pots denied that he had cheered, and therefore the allusion was uncalled for. Mr. Hume resumed. Ile should be the kit man to make any allusions that had the least ap pearance of personality ; but really the ecatacy which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Pole) seemed to feel at his statements, quite prevenied him from proceeding.—/ Hear, hero./—The Hon. Gentlensan then enumerated a variety of indivi duals holding offices in the Ordnance who were freemen of that borough. The servants of the thrill:ince are all well housed, and comfortably kept too, in • limner indeed much above their oituationv, and would it not be contrary to the principles of our nature to suppose that a man and' Ills family kept and supported in this mummer, would not be influenced in his vote ? %With re spect to Sheerness, he would suy, that if ever there was a subject that loudly demanded the attention of time Meuse, it was the abuses of the public offices at Sheerness. Some short time ago an in quiry was Mali uteri, stud although not one-tenth part of the abuses complained of were proved, still there was euough to have many of them ()bonnier'', which very persons have been again restored through the baneful influence of Qiieenhorough. There was one particular case to which he prayed the at •tention of the House. William Alen' had been a ' storekeeper at Sheerness. In 1818 he was ail ''.'perationsted io consequence of not being able to discharge the duties of his office, and was succeed :eel by a per**, of the name of Thomas Pennell, aged 74 (near, Itear.)--This appeared to bun to be the grossest of all gross cases. This was a solitary im.rtanre , but if he had permission - to go . through the various offices. instead of orders lacin g given to give hum every impediment, he should; he hail mai) doubt, be able to produce many more of a similar description. Coastal there be possibly as... More wanton inconsiderate waste of the public.: money, or rather a greater violation of the "prineW pies of justice ?—( Hear.)—From what he hid the House might form a pretty fair notiottof What these two seats cast the country. The sum total. I expended amongst the freemen of Queenboroagh,. amounted to 2.5,0001.—(Hear, hear./-11sving gone so far, lie should now endeavour to explain to the Heim the manner in which this influerregis exercised. He held in his hand a list of sib tern persons who were disinua•ed fromt theiea places fur th e mere purpose of waking room foir others. Julio kiens'ey, at Sheerness, with at ware and five children, was dismissed is February, 1818, under a plea of his services not being necessary, and shortly after was succeeded by Jam. a Rolorison,, aged 48. Now there was a regulation actually in existence, which stated that no man should be ad mitted into the Ordnance after 45 years— (Hear) — but the misfortune and the crime of lieusley was, that lie did not happen to be a freeman of Queen borough, and the other was. Samuel Smith w as discharged at the same time, and was escceeded by • George May, aged 58 ; and John Lee, who was ' fourteen years in the service, was difriOraleil to make room for inn, aged 53. Jame Eagle was superan n uated limn the nave on a pension of 40/. e .y ear , an d 'non after, he being 70 years of age, entered the Ordnance, and was superannuated on an additional pensioti of 161. a-year.—[The Ilan. Gentleman then mentioned a variety of other cases of a similar description.]—lf then lie bail sue. ceeded in oinking himself welerstooll—(Hear, Iseurj—affil that the (loose felt the abuses existed, they could tint do a better thing than endeavour tip remove theee gri.-vancea, and permit him to being in his Hill. Ilia object was not to impose any haribiliiii• tin those gentlemen, he merely sought to put them oil a level with the cirstoin-lieu,e, !NMI. office, and ether departments. It', on the umber the Ileuse should be of opinion, uftrr time fligrant abuses lie had, stated, that they should n o t agree to the Hill, all lie had mu say was, that lie would be moat happy at any time to give Ins support to Bill to enable the AtlminiStratiott to upwind the two Members for this borough.—( Loud chters.)— His only object was, in mime trouble lie had taken, to effect some saying in the public money; said it would be a sating. of 0,000/. of the public pulse, to permit th&Mester of time Ordnance to nominate the twit Representatives. The Hutt. Gentleman concluded 11 movieg— " Fur leave to bring in a Bill to disqualify certain (m ean has the Ordnance from rating in the electiou of Members of Par liamesit. - - e ( MIK k cm: ()Gabon ) Mr. BERNAL sem:idol the motion. He said be supported it, not on the ground of economy alone, but with a view to support the freedom and purity iif election. As tie iustance 11. support of the staleineial ml' Lis flimintrable Friend, he might eddiree the Liureugh of Rochester, of whieli twoity-tive freemen belunged to the ms_ tablishmeet. Ile did not mean to say GOVMIIIIIIt lit should nut have certain niflurrice to exereive, but it should lint be earl led to too great au extent. They should take care that the current of their iiifluesice„ which was givrit fur their support, should neither two flow nor become comrupt and stagnant; they should endeavour to support their power by meri torious measures, and nut by mere money. On these principles it was that he supported the motion of • his Honoorsble*riend, to which he gave h is most hearty etincierepre. 1 Mr. WARD said that in rising to oppose the mo -1 tion, he felt some difficulty to determine with what part of the various statements of the Hon. Gentle man he should begin. Impression., of course, must be made on the House by ex porte state ments, which it would be his duty to remove, and for this purpose perhaps the more correct mode would be to pursue the course which the How. Gentleman himself bad thought lit to adopt ; rod here he could not avoid remorkinie, that if the Hon. Gentleman were actuated by no other motives than those of supporting a great constitutional mea sure, he would best have effected that object, best consulted the wishes of the House, and best sup !sorted his own character, by yielding to the re quest of his Right lion. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to postpone the motion in the rib. settee of his Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh). The Hou. Gentleman, however, was the test nudge of his own conduct. flaying premised so much, he would now crone to the principle of the 11:11, and to this he should object in !amine, fur nothing could be more unjust than to impute corrupt conduct to a meritorious class of mete whose characters stand far above such insinustionr.— Because the lion. Member had, as he supposed, a positive case feminist the Ordnance, his first act of legislation would be ritiiiiitig counter to those prin. espies of reform of which the Hon. Member had professed himself so fund. lo the discussion on the Newington Vestry Bill the Hose Member had 41e dared himself the determined opponent of it, be cause it took away the franchises of individsials, yet he now came forward with a measure which had no other object. The whole of it was founded on what he should call a false supposition—a supposi tion that the stidnoduals employed by the Ordnance and in the navy were subject to influence or intimi dation. With respect to the navy, it was very well known that some of the must determined opposers of the Administration were returned by the votes of persons employed in the meal depsement. He wuuhl instance the boroughs . of Great Yarmouth and Ipswich ; the election at the latter place was carried by the men from the dock-yard. Those were certain instatices which lie knew, and he doubted not that many others might be cited. He defied the Hots. Member to sheet- a single instance of intimidation of persons under the Ordnance Board, the Gl:pos.4ll6ly of exercising the elective franchise was always afforded to them, whether they voted oil the one side or the other. lie be lieved there was in his office only one esrson who was possessed of the elective franchise, and lie had been ittfurnie,l that be was a radical reformer. Ile lid inquired if he was a good clef k ; and be leg answered in the affirmative, he never thought of iiiterfering with lain on accooot of bits politics, but had g iven hiin leave of ale:Puce three tittle, to go to M;ndstistie to give his vote to *owe lion. Gentleman, whose object it might be to re move him (Mr. Ward) ft:sin his He beg ged, in tins stage of the tegument, to make *hat he couselered an important distinction. He (Mute-Wird that it.flJeloce was nut interference. ,b,fluence seas what could not be guarded ugainst, .it was established even by the laws of Indere. 'From the influrpre tesultilig from character, from ,hope, or fear, what could shield them ? If the persons possessing the influence didalot come for .ward to use it, to interfere then nu harm was done. But could the Hon. Member prove the whole of the ° cases which he had brought forwald of ;serious who he supposed had beets influenced,still it viciald ilse no- reason - for disfranchising otlorr persons who pied not been SO influenced ; because different nsemleers of the same family were employed under the Ordn ance Board, the Hon. Gentleman infers that all were corrupt. Now he (Mr. Ward) would suppose that every one of the electors of Queen borough were employed by the Board of Ord nance, and yet he would deny that to be any reason for disfranchisitig them. 'lite fie 'lineable Member, to be consistent, untie carry his principle snit further, and prohibit Boy salami having his truant vote for I . SO t!.e tenant* of great landholders, like the Duke 4.f Bedford, or the workmen of great manufacturers, or the odentrers of the distracter and abilities of the Honourable Gentleman on the other side should, Ise prohibited votin g !, or else, according to the Honourable Membei's principle a corrupt influence would be exerted. He believed the Honourable Gentleman did not see the extent of his own• prin ciple. it was a mere Utopian notion, which no practical Statesman would ever couteenance; or else it was a mere party trick, to inflict an injury on in dividual. who had been found inconvenient. The flon. Mends. r then referred to the period when Mr. Crewe's Bill for disqualifyitig persons employed by the customs and excise from voting at elections, was passed, aaid stated, that a similar suet:apt to the present was ni.de lour years afterwaids, which the piesetit Lord Grenville amid the lute Mr. Pitt then opposed, on the ground that sufficient had been done for reducing the influence of the Collo. He affiened, that the influence of the Crown at the present moment sus no more than sufficient to maintain its relative position, and that balmier iu the Constitution, on the maintaining of which pro. biddy depended the fate of the country. The Queenborough case in the history of the Or d nance seas not new, yet notwithstanding the reiterated complatuts fur thirty or forty years past of the its. fluence of the Ordinance, in 18.20 the seats were ravished from the official Members, and Mr. Princep and the Honourable Members fur Cove try were returned. Sir Samuel itormlly too, whose character for integrity and purity was comise crated in the recollections of the country, twice sat for this stigmatised Borough ; once with the in. I flue nee of Government, and once against Would a man of his spotless character have had any thing to do with its representation had it been so corrupt as it was stated? lu 180 Q, it was Mr. Sar gent, the Secretary of the Treasury, who opposed Mr. Prince', awl the other Gentleman, also went down, us was understood, with the interest of the Ordnance and Navy Boards, yet they cdtild rot succeed: The Administration winch followed, contrived, its 1806, to make their candidate succeed, although Vrscount Sidonouth could not. lie did not pretend to sae how that was, but he had no doubt it resulted from that legitimate influence which lie had described. He complained that the motion of the Hon. Mem ber wens insidious ; he wanted (because 14D elector s of Queenboroogh were employed by Govern. tneA to disfranchise upwards of 0,000 persons, land deprive them of their birthright as Eng lishmen. The motion was insidious, inasmuch as it purported to be direcied sonnet the Ord nonce, though they now found by the avowal of the flonourable S,emmomier, that it way in truded to go to the whole of the of lees of the State. He could-otot but think it was a gross inconsistency of the Honoura b le Member to al low placemen to sit in that House, }et wash' wish to prevent their voting for the election of Members, us if, being tiiiihr influence %tidal out of the House, they would iot be .uhiect to it 'rho when in the House. lu Itito2 a goat number of persona employed by Garet mimeo voted optimist the Ad ministraitomi, but sot one of them was turned out I for it. The lion. Member then enumerated 'eve rat instances, and named the parties who had so voted. if this were true, then what became of the . charge of interference ? and tf there *RS nothing of that sort proved, there was an end of the crise The Hoisoumable Member had stated the [mintier of persons employed by the Ordnance; but in fact there was a maj.irity of the Freemen of Queetiburongli who were not to employed. Accordnig to information which he had received there were iirja freemen, of which the total number who could be influemiced by the Ordnance was ; so that there were 163 not employed, leaving • tuition'' , of 34 v o t ers who we re limit employed . ° What became then of the Honourable Member's. general reaso g. when even his premises were unsound? lie would now take leave of the first part of the liminorahle Gentleman's argu ineut, mid address himself to the particular tropics which be had descanted on in his mood style of exaggeration. His first posit 1111 l wits, that places were created for the purpose of employing the free men of Queenborough, hitt lie hail not given one single case, amid lie (llr. Ward) denied the fact alto gether. He contended that the Interest uf the Board of Ordnance st Queenborough woad nature I interest, and erect-moray grew out of she expenditure by the Ordnance estalrlishmerit there, whirls establishment was absolutely iircesiiary at Queenborough, from its contiguity to the great naval depot at Sheerness. He thought that in fairness the lion. Member ought to have given him wotice of the particular in stances of rualversation to which he bad alluded, and not have given merely a general notice. 1 4 .!itls the imperfect preparation which he had, lie would proceed to observe on those instances selected by the Hon. Member. (his first case was that °fat man who was lint a voter, who had been em ployed ten years and then dismissed to snake roots for one who was a voter. lie thoirglit that according to the Honourable Member's own I chewing, he was entitled to claim some credit for the Ordnance, corrupt as they were represented, for having employed him so long. He was mimed Kensley, and was foreman of the labourers at the Isle of Grain. The Board, in 1818, had it in couteniplation to put down the powder maga zines there, but from . the difficulty of finding room for the woes one man was obliged to be kept there, the rest were dismissed. It afterwards appearing that one mail win not sufficient, another was appOliltril. Kensley had applmed, but was told that the appointment was too intended tq be permauelit, but that they would note him for the first permanent foreman's place which fell.— tie asked in the mean time to be employ ed as a labourer, which request was granted. Suture then the whole of the establishment at the hie of Grain had been ton down. Thai, therefore, was the first case a ',erten, was kept fns ten yeas who had oo vote put down, beerinse the whole establishment teas put down ; but was then noted, and still was rimed for a ',emollient situation of the same sort which lie hail before held. Tne next case was that of John Savery, who, after his, dismissal, asked to be employed as a labour er, which request the Board complied with, amid be had continued as labourer ever since. He had nut applied when Eagle was superseded, and it could not be sopposed that lie (Mr. Ward) should know the situation of every labourer. He lied, according to his request, been employed as a labourer slid was not beard of again.—t Hear, hear, from Mr. Ihsnee./—At treat that was tie :recount he had received. The next case was that of S. Smith; be was dischareed in February, 1818. There was no employ for him at Sheerness, but he was rent to Tyner, where lie still remained ; yet lie had no vote, The ease of Rocklitte road on a similar footing to that of Slavery ; he bad not applied. Of John Page's case he was utterly igloo root. With respect to the case of the clerk who bad been appointed aftew he was past the age of forty-five years, contrary to the established rule, he could nut speak precisely; .bat iu many cares where persons were so appointed. they had been before employed by the Ordnance, in which cue the ride did not apply. He denied that be had ever stated, that be would discharge any clerk who should give the Honourable Member (Mr. Hume) any information. He had s.mid (in answer to an observation of the Honourable Alemnber, that he (Mr. liume) tvonlml send a person down to Sheernem to measure the tonnage of a vessel, re specting which lie *num! theme was an error), that if the person was permitted to go on board without thepertnisoion of the superior officers lie. should be discharged. The Member stated the vessel to measure 36 tons, and nut 56, as statist iu a tenon laid on the table. Mr. Lawrence, the nester eltipwliglit at Sheermiess, had since it, mid found ; it to 56 45-94th too*. The Homan able Member was . mistaken in the amount of Mr. Breeze's salary at Waltham Abbey. the amount was not so large as lie bad elated (Nlm. flume spoke across the table). As it was a mistake of the lion. Gentlemetis, he should make no further obersvatton upon it. Another position of the Hon. Geutlemars'a was, that every •officer employed at Sheerness laid let his house. The store-keeper, for one, never had let his house. It was an irregularity certainly, which was now reme died, but be did not know that he should have re fused permission for any person to have lived one mile and a half from tlie scene of his em ploy, had such permission been asked. The case of the Gentlemen at Sheerness, which the lion. Member had formerly alluded to, was this —they were accused of pilfering COlll6 and wood from the public stores. From information which had been received (not in consequerice of arty thing which the Honourable Member had said), the Board bad thought proper to appoint a Cow. its hotough, who regulates the Whole ! borough. *fiends half of Ebel'''. sell- ie He had heard of a f the Hbuse of Commons; but thh is inantiger of the borough for the -" g"'"1 - `• `" **l'l" - •"" • I Q - r