The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-03-20 00:00:00

' themselves of thisiwerease of saki i. s and liy going' out agith to India. Did' not ;..e.tablishment of judicial tribunals in the hoe_ t r o f India, at a n ee p ence ' of one million an ir:„..;ity, and to the indeeuesiorthe Crown ? Coeld „ e t the Right lion. Gentleman, or his Majesty's ministers, send out any number to( young men to in m i , hien whom these Justices and Judges of Av i v: were chosen ? These were' the eitCum -1.3„,0 Which the Right Hun. Gentlemen akestfd lyre taken into his consideration,' whetv4te Oder. k to discuss that vital t lt t estinn, whetter the • tee of the Crown had increasesl. - When • CilltfilV 13( Ceylon became a part Of time Bri.. 14 Emp i re , had not Mr. Nails !seen sent•oirt as t a ve rner, at a salary of 10,0001. per annum ? Had not General Maitland been since sent thither,. ,a ?.alary of 10,0001. per annum ? And was it sot known that both thole Gentlemen happened ogres:sills the Government?' Had Ilot another Hen . Membe r (!dr. Hstvltisson), whilst Secretary r „ she Treasury, been appointed agent for Cey. to, in which character he was to sot/evil his se. come to the Treasety, so that in fact he' was to rs „ hi s own accounts? The It gut Hutt. GMstle. tul a had net noticed the Droits of Admiralty as purses of influence to the Crowd. These Omits osautited to eiglit millions, only two of which „ d e accounted lor. • It had been coritetweir by the (;.row ' Lawyers; that these Droits were the absolute property of IA Majesty. that Siff .1111- G u ns would afford theorems of overthrust/1k the (~,astitotion, if employed fur that purpose. They o otild enabis the Government to return the *ma janty of that IlesPe, in several steceesive Par. moa ts. That the proceeds ot the DOA stud ni: • h s e shi u l l is t : 9 7h b i e ' f h tr h e a t il ht. b . u t e lu d at et tc i T l •ns o o:t th : lll- t a he re •( L e a were a soaree of influence and . prdfit, the tim e of the famous Joyalist, Mr. Jain Bowlis, sues proof. The Right Hein. Gent. hid talked • 1 the managensesq of the debt by The Bank ; hst in 1784, who would have dared to predict 04 the Beak would at this slay he protected by tbcGore/enema in withholding the issue of ape_ ' cu: (or their notes—or' that it would have due_- t-seed to manage the public debt ? Whilst the B ati k was thus dependent upon Government, he v.ottlil ask whether any Director of the Bstik, a :i(caiber of that linens., would *discharge his duty I. ) his cp:O6OO.M, at the B.sisk, and diff...r from nnisfers in that !loose ?-----The same obser. sullen a pplied 61.'4 he Directors of another great 1 1 ,de its the City, the Directors of the East- Cempeny, who, with their sit millions of debt in Wait, and their oeteniive debts at hone, ulna they l o oked Itr Government to east upon Cie public, conla out, cote:ol'4oly with their con. cern for the Cetntihits 7 , vdature"to differ from tioverteinest. Al! these considerations shoved t:nt ilia influence of the Government hell in. treased, and made it an imperative duty upon !louse to take mime steps to restrain ifs pto pess. The Right lion. Gent. prufeesing, to con. tar himself to the list-24 years, had gone back t• the reign of Queett Aline for a continst with the reseal day as ti,) the ansuent of peesinssi but his comparison the Irtafit sun had left out the Scotch Pension List, and pen-. IPOIS tin the 41 per cents. In 178.1 thire were let two ur three Members of Patti:odt*, pen_ timed mit of the 4+ per Cent. Fund; now there twee seventeen, and all connections of the. Right Iteiourable Gentletness oppiisite. lie iltinsid tile another occasion • to Obes► the illegality of granting pensions out of that fund, which id teen raised for other purpates... Rit,ht Roiseurable Gentleman, he Was convinced, could eel believe shit there were not persons con. reused in contracts its that lieuse.—Lieenties Were another source of influence to Thy Crown. Liould the Right Ilosiuse6ble Gentleman say, 15st as a lileeiher Of the Board of Trade, he hal nut Transactions w ids . Members of that House mewing licences ? tYhe n discussing such a sahiet as the •inerease of the inliiience 'of the Celery, •these were' the questions which the Right Ileum-fable Member might to have introduced, in. end of Liking it up fur a party purpose. (Hear, kzeir!) Fur what ether purpose could he have earn:Weed the circumstance of Mr. Fox having at :•s early period of his life fisted 'against inquiry ? Far what other purpose t he statement of Mr. Pitt's !mini try embarrassments, and the mode proposed ? • It nes nothing else hut a pitiful ratty production, highly sinicerthy of the Right Honourable Member its anther. Mr. ROSE, again called upon, felt himself ob. rterd again to trespass open the indulgence of the Cintsmitice. Of the terns " pitiful," applied by i the Ilenourable Member to his pamphlet, he tleueglit as little as he did of any thing that could fall from that Honourable Member. Thu Hest. Gentleman had imputed motives to hilts which he 'tat not warranted in doing, either in justice or fairness. The lion. Gentleman was incorrect in Hying that tie is ad not guise into detail respecting Co , 'emus., as every Hots. Member would see, 11 he looked into the pamphlet. Ile was net ")th of any influence that could be derived to qovernment from contracts. As to what had them said of the addition to the Judges' salaries, Donnas the first time he heard it made matter of ilfloPiaint, that. the sittiation of Judges was trade lore iadependent. The etsestiAs relating to the E;st Indies, his Right lion. Friend (Mr. Dun. 4 ' l ) would be able to explain. Ile was igeo rant how the *oils or Admiralty could increase, f i l infl u enc e o f the Crown. He denied that either h „ a 'Alt lima Direc tors lim wteesers would be obliged to vote, . 4.l ; l lGoverninent open the grounds stated by the Ilesseurable Gentletoan, lat all the conquered ' lll l l3 ies there were ant more than eight or ten PIRO wants going out for, to any political mall, and consequently the influence of the Crown bald nut be much increased in that respect. lie knee of no contractor having a seat in that nor did ha believe any had sat in it since h the Act p asse d. T o th e tpieStion of the lloo; Iteetlem an respecting licences, he had to reply, 1 , 1 ,' ,, 41 he had. had several, tint nu private trainee. " with Members of that House on the subject, end that conduct wutild have been gelded with V t `' l a•ee fairness ri nd impartiality towing any ctuatt on the Oppuside side. •••••4•.....1r.,••t, Mr. DUNDAS could libt . what sin neelion tIM allusions Made to India had with the question before tiro Committee. He supposed the object of the Hotionrible Gentleman - was to thew that the influence, of . the Crown had increased - , with the increase of our territorial possessions in India. In whatthe Honourable.Gentleman had said respecting the annual eapeace (or the Judges in India, as one million, he lutist have been dream ing. No such thing was the fact. There were o•etainly ti number of persons appointed as Ma 4isfrates and Judges , of Assied in the interior, but not one Of them was appointed by his Majesty's Government, either directly or indirectly. As to the insinuation that most of tkuse persons ware sent out by Goiernment, he shutild only *ay that Lott! flints hid tipledge from him that he vroald not recommend any person !fir its appointment in resoliition he had adhered to, and should continue to adhere to; and he believed thit liis.pcederesSers not all perhaps, but cer. : tainly most Of theM, had acted-upon the same pfin. elides. The +merino; of the Honourable Gentle man, that all Writers were sent out 4o India by Government, he had to meet by a flat cootradie. thin., Only two are recommended by the Board of Controul, and even those the Court of Direc tors need not allow. The Honourable Gentleman hid dealt only in strong assertion*, only to. be met by equally .f rung counter.asser. dons ; and hi no case had the Honourable Gentle man shewo by argument the justice of his asser tions. The Courts of Justice in Calcutta had ea. i4tod before Mr. Pitt came into power; the Ma drat; Courts of 3ustice and the Recorder of Bum bay were . the 'only offices that hall been since created. • Dir. CREEVEY repealed what he hid asserted, thist . the. judicial establishments in India Cost one minims *woolly ; and in this he was fortified by the concurrence of other Members of the Coin. --.----~ mittee. Mr. SIMEON, in defenee of the Misters in Climicery, felt it necessary to state that they had no patronage whatever, and that • the increase of their Salaries had taken place one or two years be te& atetlion. Gentleman had thought of bringing forsiarif his resolutions. The Hon. Gentleman might therefore very well have left these officers wit of 'bid Statenieut, sad his object in rising ./as to prelim( its going forth to the public, that Mas ters in`qhancery possessed any endue patronage, or received any undeserved remmieration fur their laborious serviees—serviees not the less rneritorki ens heesase withdrawn from the :public view 'llieoppolsitment of these offiCers belonged to tho Chancellor, ,not to the Crean ; and the..iiine of ten, who had been dieinisrestedly appointed by., the present Chancialoi, were none of them •ap.,- ',Dieted fur political uhkets; He had himself been,. I• appointed 16 years, age by Lord Loughboroegh . fr. lime before he hid a seat in that House; and to . .iilte•• that tub political depentleoce attached to the office, Ire hail unly'to state, that an Hon. Member "-opposite (Mr. Morris) generally voted against Mi siste:rs.• • • 1 " , Mr. MARTIN, in exislanation, stated, that be tied sot intcutl'ed to say any think - .W' spectisse Masters in Chancery, whose lid Slat ' *if by accident in trfidered ' amongst this Oftetri-to ~_ -wanes his observations parlicularly applied. Sir JOHN NICHOL begged' to infOr'et • Bic Committee, that uncut the eight millions of .Droih: tal"..Asamirelty, about two-thirds had beets firerito" tbecapters; 'of the remainder, one nfilhott hod been given to the public, and the residue was ip 411i-cable to the public service. • • , • Mr. WILSON, as well as NI , C could collect, "defended the characters and offices of the Masters its Chancery. • - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER slated, as the ground upon which he moved the amended resolution, that the original one of the Hott..and Lsarited Gentleman. was much narrower than the occasion required.• 'the amended MO- ' Itition stated is general, • that it was 'at • all titna the defy of that House and of Government, to I pay every attention . to economy. It. had ever-. Itlasq:n distinctly the wish of •his Majesty's Miliisters to apply so much of the proceeds of the •ships condemned antecedent to the war, as were .not I distributed to the captors, - to the public service. - Mr. BARING ,considered that the power of granting licences did give a great influence to the Crown. The trmla in this country was cirriednis nut by law, but by licence, whit.% was more suited i to the principles of the Turkish Government, than of. British.Freedons. It was certain that the. Treas4ry gained great patronage by it, hut it was pot easily to be proved its what manner they used it. - . . .t . „ The CEIANCELLOR ef, the EXCHEQUER' said, that if the, power of granting licences had been so abused, it-was impossible that the abuse • 'should have escaped detection. The public,. and the Hop. Member himself, who 'was a London Merchant of great eminence, must have been able to detect the abuse, and such .a detection must do mote injury to any Administration than ,they cony benefit from the patronage. . 1 Mr. BARHAM said, that the proof 'was es-.j trumely difficult: Supposing two merchants an., ' plied for a licence for a voyage foi the same ;dew and at the same time, if one obtained his licence' but three days before the (viler, the advantage was incalcul4ble. • Ile might sell his whole cap at his own prices, while the other would find the market glutted. Mr. KOSE said, that a partiality of this sort. would be very easy of detection. The fad was, the apiilication fordicencei was made in a public office, .and there was no instance of any licence, which was unobjectionable, nut being granted the day after the atplintion. The Board met for this purpose Silt days in the heck, add it was their minimise course to determine uu the application the was made. day after it was - - • The first Resolution was that put and agreed to sinanithonsly. Upon the second Resolution Being put, Mr. BA NEES rose fur the purpoie of movigiar an amendment . lie About/tat that it.wits right,tat. ascertain with what spirit the Matsu entered ispbes. the presentsliscession, and that.they shoald pro. comae their opinion . between the abelitiun Of si... • . , tV- 41 re MPT • • • • • they,• b . nod!. pieces,. w ncame vacant, and t.. regulation of thous. Every sic:deeding year the Ministers hid the painful duty of proposiog fresh burdens to be laid upon the people, and it was hut natural for the people to ask whether every thing was done that ought to be done, to diminish those burdens. Although the:actual saving which could be made in this way might be amall, yet it was a matter of great consequence in the principle. When the people should see that nothing was imposed unnecessarily, and tint every burden was taken off which could be taken off, they would submit to their burdens with more cheerful. ness. However small the retrenchments .Obich could be made in this way would appear, when compared with the general scale of our expeadi.. l lure, it would not be a trine, in the view which he had stated. In the content and comfort of the people, it would be great indeed. He thought that the public money should not be wastefully em. ' ployeti, and that it should be given only for the discharge of public duty. Therefore when ilia. cient places and sinecures *ere in existence it became a rigiltet Parliament to correct this abuses He con.' Mitered that an immense patronage was attached to the inefficient place of Auditor of the Exchequer. The capences of the office of the Treasury , were not less that% 60,0001. a-year, and the number of Clerks wattoestautly itscreesieg, lie meet ;A. jeer to those places where there were a notnival *T. ricer and an efficient one both receiving salaries. lie would wish that the sinecures should be abo lished as they became vacant,• but at the same time he did not wish to deprive the Crown of the meaner Of rewarding great- serf/ides: The question was,. whether those services were best repaid by sine.. cures orby pensions; and he conceived that pee. site's were the better way. There was an instance of the disposition of a sinecure within a few days (gr. Yorke's Tellership), and he would venture to say, that upon a principle of rewarding services by pensions; a pension equal to that sinecure would net have been given to Mr. Yorke. When it was only the disposal of a sinecure, be was not the least surprised at the manner in which 11.1 had 'been given. In every instance where distal tingtrishel service was performed, a pension wai l proposed, and those sinecnres were kept to rewatd, services of another description. This was.a thing ] audoebtedly. galling to the people.: He thought, therefore, that there should be an abolition of si. twelves, as the lives dropt who ,now held them; with a power in his Majesty to grant pensions commencing from the fell of the lives, and coes mensuratu to this diminution.. He the sght the Of fices which were merely sinecure, ought .to be . abolished ; that those where the emolument far .exceeded the labour, should be regulated so as to „ . make 'the Meer and the casolonent cdrreapen. dent; and that all these places. whichereentiteted Rby , uttpltlys thoulsi ttu. restected In the sa4fty'af this deputy, excepting whet might be considered an addition equivalent to the finding sulticieet sceuri ties. He thee concluded by moving to 'ashen& Mont, which included shoat opiulons fortiesholi. tion of users sitteceres, and the reduction of oda. • , ries in the other laces, in the magnet he had own.. 4torsest s . . . The CIIANC 141,011 .of the EXCHEOJkIi , thaught that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Ilankes) coulil hardly eqrct that the Hons., would upon L the first statentlyot agree to etopositiont which would so materjslly diminish the prerogative of the "Crown. The resolutions of the Hun. Member . '(Mr: Martin) had been printed in the last session, together with the resolutions which he. himself hest, proposed on the Other side. Which ever wuy the . House might decide with respect to those resoled:. oust, they would he acting with sufficient notice ; but at to the principles contained in the amend. ment moved by his Bight Hon. Friend, they had nut even been stated before, and therefore it could ' hardly be supposed that they would be immesh. ately adopted.. He could by no means approve of the amendment, which was not even introdu ced by. the Right Honourable Gootleinan.himself :as likely to be productive of arty important saying. He really could not cenceive by what traits of. argument. his-Right Honourable Friend copld convince himself that agreeing to such Mel antiesdasen wou Id II o- a great deal to reconcile ' the) public te their burdens, and to take from the clic_ affected a handle and a weapon. What practice! geed eettid ouch an amendment produce' The prerogative of the Crown was in the first place to be invaded by the abolition of those places, and the public were wet to gain any advantage... His , Right gunourable Friend himself had not stated 'toy adventagb, for he talked of a substitute fort lfhetlo phKeig . which would cost as much as the places themselves. Ile had proposed to give the Crown the power of granting pensions eunmensu. este to the falling iu Of. the sinecures.. . Mr. laitilLti said that was not his intention only thought that,' power should be given. to 'a certain amount, to reward services by pentium. 'llse CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEI resumed. lie did not see that thil. &Vitiation at all remedied the objection. The Right Hun. Gentleman proposed the abolition , of sinecures 44)4 1 solhtely, and he talked of a s ubstitute, witho u t informing the Committee to what umuupt he w add ' , propose that this substitute should be carried.' The Cothmittee, therefore, only knew what he would bsvc destroyed, but not what he was to isot in eke place of it. If he really did not mean to peodure edintioution of ex pence-by the amend. meat, it, was tamely a matter of his' private fancy` with reaped to a. preference of Pensions -to Stualt.• mires'. As WO, illustration - which the Rigid - Honourabie Gentleman had selected, of the dispo. sal of sistectsre a few days @goyim tensidered the disposal *id mat unexceptionabk Dear, hes:l and some laughter). His merits-had been twirl pared. with lhat et , a Noble Lord (Lord lington). He must hoWever say, that it never had been supposed, • hitherto, that these places opere to be disposed of exactly according to . the erks •of. AU /milk: services. They were comes: *redo Wagging to the patronage Of the Crown, ihp be givot by it to any deserving servant' of the ,ereststry, to whom- it - slit:mid' think :Mr. ,Torks eer - yed his: cusim try in' ppblic 'situations; and if such a place had been grunted to him imnatiattly after his Serticel as Seem _ . t. •; . . • ~ .. :i . t tart' at Wir • had socretiry of .stiite; iberi , cemild hive been bat Mai iihjeetiii. Th 9 • ' Right Honourable Gentleman himself miter, did long and faithful services shoidei be rewirded by something more than the daily pay. Now, what length of time would he allew to be sidliclent to . • Wire sack reward ? Mr. Yorke had served above three years, and if it were allowed that it would . have been a natural reward for his services it.that time,. he would ask in how many yells the merit of former services was to be forgotten in consequence of a man being out of office ? A great deal had been said about the increasing influence of the Crown ; bathe should always eentend that it had ' not increased of tato years by any means in •the proportion that the popular branch of the Lees. lance had increased in its influence. The dilihs: sion of wealth and information had greatly creased the pewee of the peueie in the scale of the Constitution. Mr. Perceval then read a long ettract from Mr. Burke's book with respect to 'public economy, and shewed that his opinions of Mr. Burke were In manly respects totally eliferenk from those of the Right Houourable Gentle 'van. Mr. BANKES suggested the idea of a post ponement of the debate till his resolutions were printed. ,The CIIANCELTAR of the EXCHEQUER acceded, on condition - that the postponenient was subsequent to. the debate on the Eapedition. • Mr. WHITBREAD. could not allow the iitses. tion, even now, to pass, without .a few obseria. tions. ' Ile remarked on the peculiarly bad grean with which the Right Hon. Gentlemen came for. ward in defence of sinecures ; he, himself, pos. scssed of sinepnres, the greategt. reversionist in the kingdom, and who had in the recent gift of ono of those offices . to Mr. Yorke, shewn how wide. ly the original principle for Which - they were in tended had bail abandoned. [goer; hear!] The ooadoet of his comments plalety she wed the feeling pc the country with respect SO such grants. [Hear, tscurq Ile ieeld not yelp thinking that Mr. fork() hid lu AM, boon but justly' treated, - and certainty 'did not regrk however inclined he might be to coith4s his purity of iuteution. . This dispersal of sinecure offices could not continue—lt was rendered evident from the pamphlet of the Right Eton. Gentleman oispo. site (Mr. Rose), who was an author in more sansei thaw osse—lt was rendered evitkne from the pamph let of Lord Melville—it was rendered, evident from the pamphlet of another lion. Member, all of which' plainly proved, that the public- were 'plundered. [Marl] A note had erupt into . the notorious work of the Gentleman opposite rot. peeling LOrd Carrington ; it was most invidious, atid: Lord Carrington, through a subscriber to Mr. Pitt's comforts, had refused to receive any • of the money which had been subscribed to pay his debts ;, he hoped $u much could be !Act by:the Right Him . . Gentleman and his friends. Abother • aost inviloui note respecting Mr. Ilet wu to be found in the same production.- A fence - fence of these offices bad been, however, sot up bran Honourable Gentleman, who had said they were collected tram the Easheittey,. brit nut vibe out of the taxes ; this was one of the grossest , lesions he had .ever hearth attempted to be impoiet upon the patience of the-public. How did the money get into the •xcliequer,, but from the purses of the people? Vas not every shilling of it paid from the Taxes? He was ashamed to' repeat argu. meets which. be had used so oft,:n already, and regretted • much .the postponement now proposed, • as he was ready at that moment to do that wii4ll had been long expected, and which must be dune at last ; namely, to abolish sinecures altogether. The people were now disgusted with the gross de. lesions which had been practised. It was idle to say that the power of the Crown was soeglitto be. abridged by the abolition of sinecures. The no blest strength of the Crown consisted ie.the 'fee. lions- and confidence of the people. (Hear!) • He contended that au economical reform m ust et length be adopted , and he hoped that the people • . would stand firmly by the man Who bad the bold: ness and virtue to pursue it to the end. • Mr. ROSE defended what had been Caged notorious work, and denied that any fact in it had been confuted; ho also declared he bad not para. , ciliated in the sum subscribed, to .pay Mr. Pitati ~ debts ; and that in the whole cesitie of hits life he had awed' conceived or uttereddiiereipAtfet ben:: timent of Mr.. Fur. The note with respect to I Lord Carrington had been corrected Ina second IC The Right honourable Gentleman Wen v i so much effected towards the conciliated of his ; speech, as to be scarcely able to proceed. Mr. :WHITBREAD explained, and thiltiOk the Hon. Gentlemen ought to thank him for giv ing him an opportunity of thus publicly retract. ing his errors or misapprehensions. Their Coerce. eon in a sectmitedition was not enetigh—.4 V?ltit irrevocabile verbum;" and many might hate seen a first editiony u ho' never liter the second whiCh contained the list and correction Of _ _ _ errata.. . . Xfter-a fel worth from Mr. 11. Thorotonilik J. Newport, Mr: Bantus and Mr. Martin, the further consideratioti of the resoluiletis was re; (erred to this day fortnight, the Chairmen reperteit * l progress, and the House resumed. • .- • . 4 , . . • . ' Mr:.S...cretery RYDER. brought up copiei it 4. 1 , letters from Mr. Ctinning and the Marquis 1Ve14164 . lesley, to Mr. Frere, *which were laid on the ta. tile, And . Ordered to be printed. • '. .:s. - Mr. CRCIKER brought, up the . answer ' if Si t , t 11. Keats to certain questions pet tq him respect. jog the Vv aleheren 'Etpedition ; ordered to bit' printedt Mr. lIIIITCI3INSIniInbird . for eopiei of dfl • commuttlitation, made 'to the Chancellor of the ' Fzehettie of Ireland, es to the operation *AC."' probable effect of the Irish Distllleried.,-44 . A. dered• e -, • The flonse hating ititioleet ~ . r into a Ceti. ini: (ft lif Sup p ly, t4,Bol:tsere SOO tOlites,idiktihe erectipn.of a tact at AP.l:Bl4b ,if tik‘-iiasaV if. Dural. , . .. The other Orders of the' litieeti 4104 oft end the Muse rose It Ilelf.past Twelve: • . '79 I .. . . -"„ ; i 0 , • CU rb. CIO 0-41 is GO -