The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-03-29 00:00:00

ridt. Thoiteh a professional man, not a little varied'in professienal habits, he (Mr. Adam) was ready to confess, that upon the Heselotions now sehmitted to them, he had not the opportunity of making op his mind. In the case of Maj. Scott, we which he alluded, the single act of publication eonisituted the criminality ; yet time was allowed far fell anti mature consideration. How much more forcibly was the claim fur postponemeot now pressed, when the publication complained of con tained long, prolix, and disputed arguments, con nected with rerecenees extracted from the laws of the land. The case of Alderman Oliver, in' 1771, ale) rec. ived the most comprehensive discussion, Is bee brought before that House. It was very rob lisle, that his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. I'ercevat), with'the professional acquire mots that he possessed, and surrounded as he was by so many others qnalified to arrange for him the ne cessary information, was then prepared to go to a &icicles,. But far different was his ease, de. twined by his ditties in that House until three o'clock that morning, it was impossible that he could apply himself to that full investigation which such a grave and serious charge warranted. lie had, however, even et that hoer endeavoured to acquire the necessary knowledge. He had re. !erred to the case of Alderman Crosby, as in some degree analogous. Rut whet) the various meets and references of the present publication were taken into view, he defied the must astute Lawyer to encounter the • discussion without the deepest attention. For what was he anxious ? —Only that as the Honourable Baronet had quoted Lord Coke to support his ...inter pretation, so that he (Mr. Adam) might have the opportunity of also citing Lord Coke to rapport his view of the Privileges of Parliament ; that as the Honourable Baronet bad brought fur. ward the case of Ashby and White to corroborate his inference?, he (Mr. Adam) might be able to communicate his interpretation upon It [Hear, Aear!) As he had before stated, it was abso- Ititely impossible. for him, then, to make up his mind upon the question. Frain the moment it was first brought before the House, until the pe riod when he rose, he was engaged by either pub. lie or professional ditties. Until three o'clock that morning in the House of Commons, and af ter the ordinary refreshment which nature re. qnircil, being kept, to use rather a vulgar phrase, ill harness all day, it was not too much to ask of those whose situation afforded them the means of being assisted with a variety of opinions, to allow othetteusseetethns provided, it least a short time for ulterior Consideration [hear, hear!j If this request was . denled him, ha would be then reduced to the dilemma, either that he must surrender the privileges of fleet House, or agree in the con. denination of an individual without feeling a conviction of his guilt. In making these ob. serrations, ha still wished not to be as at all thought entering Into the question, whetter the present publication was libellous or not? [Loud fries of hear ) hear ! followed ate conclusiox of /Mx speech The ATTORNEY-G ENER A L had many rea sens for thinking that the discussion ought net et) be-postponed. He retraced the proceedings on the subject, and culla:tided that if an adjotirnment took place, it might perhaps be attributed to the influ ence of motives, to the imputation of which the House ought never to expose themselves. He could not nntleretand t h e grounds on which the Hon. and Learned Member who bad just spoken wished for an adjournment. The question had been treat. ed as if it more a new point, and as if the House in many former instances, end recent ly in the case of' Mr. G. Jones, had not determined it ; for let it be recollected, that the argument of the Hon. &Irene' st as against the power of the House to commit rraiigers, ha admitting that they hail the power to commit strangers. Thu House, therefore, would net have committeAlr. Gale Jones, had they not been fully 'satisfied of their power to do so. If his , Ilimourableand Learned Friend was not so satis fied, why hail he not attended the million for the commitment of Mr. Jones ? And farther, when the Honourable Baronet made a motion for the discharge of Mr. Jones, why had not his Learned Friend then attended, if he entertained any doubts. He hail abundant opportunity to consult eethurities, for the Honourable Barmiet had given a week's notice of .his motion. The question, however, had been discussed in a full House on this sole ground—not whether the House had a right . to commit Mr. Jones in the first instance, but whe ther his having expressed his contrition at•the bar' Might entitle him to be discharged without a pe tition. The question at present before the House was—snot whether the House was vested with the right of commitment, for that was fully esta blished, bet whether the paper of the Hutt. Owlet was a libel or not ? If any doubts could pos -0114 exist on Thersubject, he shouthl be peeked, disposed to voicer in the adjournment of the dig. esissiott ; but it appeared to hie] that it wits only necessary to read the paper, in tarderd to be con. vieced that it was a libel, arid a-gross. violation of the privileges of the House. Mr. BATHURST observed, that when the bit aiiiess was before the House on the preceding day, he was of opinion, from the nature of the Paper under diecusaiun, that it would be preferable the consideration , of the question should be post. pone) to a future day. He was still of the same opinion, in which he was not guided by the same motives which had influenced the opinions • of many Honourable Gentlemen. lie did nut thick that either with reference to tenderness to the Oka who was the subject 'of the dis. •ussion, or from any apprehension of the cense (pence of the result, should the House be induced to rause. On the grand principle of giving the. Paper a fide:end candid perusal, so as that the House might come .to a just decision, and nut throw d'euiretlit on the debates, would he agree to the adjournment. With respect to the particular . parts of the Paper, on which much difftwetice of °vision prevailed, some Gentlemen pointing out passages iiirich they deemed libellous, he thought it' was not a fair line of argument to draw such an inference, because the paper should be taken together. On the other hand -it had been cried ) that if the House did not consent to . • _ , ~ ,, t! TILE STAT ES MAN. • delay, the people might be excited to disconteet. Without entering into an examination of 4heso topics, he thought it would•be better'on a ques tion of a doubtful nature not to precipitate the House. Between these difficulties he would wish to steet a prudent course ; and though he would not go to the length of the amendment, yet he was of opinion at least the discussion should be postponed 'till to.morrow. Mr. OWEN, in explanation, stated, that he I certainly did understand the passage to which he hail alluded :is conveying a charge against the House, of having imprisoned Mr. Jones under sanction of the Bill of Rights. It was then proposed by Mr. BRAND, to move an Amendment to his Motion ; ; but the - Speaker having intimated to the Hon. Member, that lie could not in point of form, the amendment was proposed by auother Ilon. Member, in effect fol lowing : " That great Questing' being depending before the House, respecting the Expedition ter the Scheldt', which so folly oc cupies and engages its attention, it is fit that the consideration of the Motion now under discussion, respect in the rights and priviteles of the House, be adjourned till to-inurrow ,se'n night. The Honourable Member who proposed this amendment, asserted that there had bees a meeting at the house of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) to prepare these Resolutions, at which the Mover and Seconder were present, and consequently they were Treasury manufacture. [Cries of hearhAtur!) Mr: I.,ffTH BRIDGE, the mover, immediately arose to titter the evonusyllable " No!" to tise Right Honourable Gentleman's assertion, an 4 further said the lionouribte Gentleman—" I tilt. _ _ _ dare upon my honour, that the Resolutions which 1 had the honour of moving are not Treasury ma nufacture !--ELoudcries of hear, hear !.] The same lion. Member observed, there was an underetanding upon the subject, fur the Seconder, as he was informal!, was there. Mr..BLACHFORD, the Seconder, arose, and denied the aseertion.--Llkar, hear Mr. R. DUNDAS would not detain the House hut a short time. He was not surprised the Hon. Gent. who brought forward the motion of adjourn ment shillala have said that the question was one of great importance. Although he should object to the adjournment, his objections were much stronger to the Amendment now proposed. With respect to the paper under discossion, Ma objections to it were not so much to the enatter, as-to the manner in which the Honourable Baronet had chosen to' discuss the subject. The simple question fur the House to decide was, whether the Honourable throne had tlivettssed it in such a mode, and in such terms, as were not an infringement on the privileges of this House. It had been said the Resolutions wereTroasitry manufachre; lie could assure the lion. Member who made the assertion that the fact was not so. Mr. WI I. BER FOlte E declared, that no man was more firmly convinced join himself, that the privileges of that Hotnte alight to be maintained ; for he thought these privileges essential to the be cyclic of - the people. But he (lid not think these pri. alleges were to be blown away with a breath.; that they could not a ithstand an attack withoutadopt ing sudden and precipitate means of defence. He therefore saw no danger in acceding to the propo. sition of delay upon this occasion, •in order that the Howe shoetcl bard the 'folkst opportunity for deliberation. This was ; in fact, a casein which that opportunity ought to-be Worded, because it was desirable that those who completely and substanti.. ally agrCed upon a principle, should be able rightly to apply that principle, and satisfactorily to state the grounds Of that agreement. Such a statement was due to the case, and to the minds of the pee. pie. • The people ought to he satisfied that the pri tileges of that House were only enjoyed and es ereised for their stileatitage. Upon such a cows. tinn, thh peopleought peculiarly to be consulted ; I for it was only in connection whit the people, the constitution of that House could be really strong. For this reason, it became the •House to proceed with the utmost temperance, seriousness, and gra vity, and therefore he would vote for the adjourn. merit. To that vote, indeed, he was the more deter mined, in consequence of the declaration of several Members of high character, thatthcy felt themselves enable, from the pressorc of time, ti► make up their minds upon the subject. When a Gentle man, for instance, so distinguished•for legal know- Isoige as the Learned Gentleman on the floor (Mr. Adam), and from when the House had board to. night such sound constitutional doctriue; express.' ed his inahihty to determine upon•the merits of the paper under discussion, not having had time to consider it, it eas surely hat proper to grant him that time: but that grant was not only proper with regard to him, but to• others in similar' circumstances,• who concurred in opinion as to the- Privileges...of tho How, thq re. (juiced time to examine, whether the papei under consideration involved a breach of these Privileges, .or was a proper case fur the exercise of the. power, which the House possessed, for the preservation of theme Privileges. lie therefore de. precated any hasty proceeding. On this occasion he would, in favour of the principle of his re cmmendation, quote the authority of his Right Honourable Friend, now no more (Mr. Pitt). It was uniformly the sentiment of that Right Ho. nourable Gentleman, that out all constitutional questions, ho wished to take such grounds as should serve to separate the really well-intentioned from those Who appeared to be of a contrary elm. racier. It was really much to be desired, that the House should come to a decision of this case with a cool mind, which was more likely to prevail, by allowing the intervention of I few days. He wished the Rims. to consider the publication ra. ther as matter of history, and so determine upon it. There were many who looked to it, with, no tkollst, an honest •warmth, but that was a disl►osi. tips ill-suited to judgment. Let the Ileum con. sider how their conduct in this transaction' should appear in the page of history, eien to them. selves- in a year' hence, and so considering, be was persuaded they would eautiousty 'avoid pronouncing, any sentence under the warmth of the moment, or • proceeding with any pre cipitancy. •U such a proceeding were taken . • - • In* opposition to the sentiments of those demon of weight end consideration, who called fir the adjournment, ho felt that the House would be sacrificing the substance to thi;appearaoce. While Ise fully agreed with the Right Honourable Gentle sin who spoke last, as to the necessity of uphold ing he Privileges of the noose, he must still sap -1 per the adjournment, as the best means of con saltier the character of these privileges. In deed, be could not conceive bow any thing could be iodised by the adv'ciiates of the Resolutions, from a perseverance in resisting the adjourn ment. Fur even though it were negatived, it would be impossible for the House, at diet l ate hour of the night (nearly I,o'cluek7, to go into the discussion of the other question, which must ne cessarily occupy a considerable! time. For these reasons he recommended it to his lien. Friends on the Treasury Bench to proceed in the case with peculiar temperance and candour, and above all to avoid any thing that should expose the House to the charge of being actuated rather by passion than by judgment. [il loud cry of hear.] The MASTER of the ROLLS delivered a my forcible speech in favour of the adjournment, in the course of which, among many other things, he observed, that the request made by so many respectable Members for time to consider this sub ject was a reason for the House's granting that time. The disadvantages of precipitation in al. most every case Were cloyeiderable ; but in tied) a case as this, they were so eunterous„ and might be so serious in their corset, that the evils of thew might be said to be alienist idcalculable. it would, in the first place, be gouerally felt that justice could not have been•dotte' to the subject while so many respectable Members declared themselves tin_ prepared for the 'discussion ; and the decision would fall shoriof that satisfaction to the public, which it was always desirable should take place, although, in some instances, that might be impos sible. He voted last night for the discussion of this subject this day ; but, had he foreseen that the discussion would have branched out Into such a length as it had done, he should certainly have voted for the adjournment. He .thought, then, that the whole subject of the Resolutions, and tel. so the subsequent proceedings on them, might he disposed of in the course of this evening ; but that was now become evidently impossible. The question now before the House was, not whether the leave of Common. possessed the privilege of committing a person to prison for offending against its rules ; but whether the denial which Sir Fran* cis , Burdett had made of the existence of . that pri vilege, was; of itself, a breach of that privilege ? Ho had this morning read the paper Complained of, . anti he thought it a trivial libel on the House of Commons; but others might wish to read it with a great deal retort of deliberation than they had hitherto had an opportunity of doing. Ano ther reason for delaying the decision of this mat. ter was this—although there might, perhaps, be a generticoneurrence of opinion un this paper, yet there might be a great difference of opinion as to the ulterior measure to be adopted is consequence of- it, and therefore, if the question .before .the House were to be determined to-night, the remelts. der of the subject would go off to another night. Another reason for deliberation was, that althu' the House claimed the right, and necessarily cleita- , ed the right of judging of its own privileges, not only because that was the Constitution of Eng laid, but even if we were to frame the Constitu tion anew, it would necessarily be so ; yet the House should proceed with caution in se judging, for it was never to be forgotten that the Mouse was in such case always judging in its Own cause, in which it was impossible to be too cool and delibe, rate, where assess@ atlaiited of ,that c oats.. As to the privileges of the House, ho weak! say in shor t, he; had always thought thous Deets. 1 sary to be maintained, ,impossible •to Ist relies. (visited, but very cautiopsly. -to be atercised. 1 should bo very glad,.. said his rionossi, there was a decent ground on which we could eetrest. from phis question. 1 never know of any dis. mission on the privilege of Parliament prodottive, of any good; but it would be the mister evil of the two to shrink from the discussion of a question of privilege, when brought be. fore us, because it would then be a vain thing to attempt to conceal real timidity under an affect. cd boldness, under .pretence of contempt, passing a question by itt silence, and therefore yots must now meet this question ;. but 1 should really be very glad of a decent anal hotieurahle pr of avoiding this question ; but we cannot avoid it. We should, however, proceed in such Assimilate as that we may .carry with us the assent of all the most judicious part of the community. For these reasons, without attenipting te influence the opi nion of any body else, I am now for an adjourn.' meet, in some form.or other, of this question. The CIIASICELLOR.of the EXCHEQUER. from his Right lion. 'I. riend who 'puke last, not to oppose the adjournment. lie was anxious not to be thought as obstinately and pertinaciously adhering to opinions of his own, whieh, how ever, he still unfortunately retained. He tithed distinctly to state, that though he yielded to the opinions of others, he footed no reason for so doing through fear, or a wish for unanimity. He still thought that in point of legal right and lewd crime in the charge,. the case was as clear as any that had come before the House. He agreed 3 to delay • on the ground of necessity. [ Load cries of hear! hear! fr om the Oppo s iti on . With an understanding that the introductory part of the amendment should be omitted; with this under. standing he must be permitted to make an ohm. vation or two. Front the manorr in which GO- Outten opposite greeted his acquiescence, the House wasuld-see what sort of unanimity it was tbuy wished to preserve whets they desired adjourn. meet. Some of his Iloiinurable Friends had been imposed upon by them a hat respect. With• that observation on their consistency he would leave the Honourable Gentlemen to their triumph.— [Loud cries of hear, hear!] Mr. PONSONtilf—" Sir, the Right Honour. able Gentleman who spUlte last, is nut justified is what he stated; for if be considers say ehecrieg frogs this side of the (Wits u a talcss of Its tri. .-. ;,... -4 ..; ... :,. .a . . • . ~ .: ~.. ;~ . mph, be is mistaken. The Int niets d question being agitated, I meted, that it ull oo ld be postponed fur a meet, that the I s la heat o f the night would• net allow a beliciest i t il f : deliberation, asbewrati otnu fol l ow , low ; considering this the not important • 1144101 l e unanimity that the gight Honourable Gte. deman expected his sesinieseence to a si n k, Motion would have been rectived.---.[li eef I would recommend hint not to rate this Ad e o t the House too low, or that which he sits on too high; fur although no defeat of the Right lies. Gentleman could be thought a triumph to thee, y et be ought not to show Ito tottered—[hear, heti for, whenever one of those Hon. Gentlemen, i r k u had b een i n .the habit of acting with lilt , cr. feted in opinion from him, he got frigut etw o and, by a feint, attempted to show he cm; plied with the wishes of the House. le n net nor are my Honourable Frieods, to be deceivei by tricks of Cabinet finesse—they may t wo held him in his past, but this side of the liiiuso cannot be longer deceived. [Mar, hear.] I should fed ashamed, if any point gained over the Right Hon. Gentleman should be considered as triumph by mg r.—[/tear, hear lj for, high as I n may think himself, l should be sorry to be so l ei ,. .[Loud shouts of hear, hear.] The last amendment was then withdrawn. Mr. LETHBRI DG E said, amidst - loud r, ie , adjourn, that the speech of the ltt. Hutt. Gentle. man bad been a sort of alone, and :tut argument, and brought no conviction with •it if it did, was high time that there shoal! be some alttrat* in the rules of that House. Mr. 81, A Cll I:0 It I) said, that a grand moth. tiunal question of th,it kind ought to take precis . deuce of every. other. --(Loud cries of attiee rn adjourn la • $ Mr. D. BROWNE thought it highly jad es ., roes that lion. Members should be interruptul w hil e out their WV, in the matinee they bad, by Gentlemen walking on the floor of the Busse— [Hear, hear n The SPEAKER then put the question nu Mr, Brand's Amendment, to adjourn the debate us the merits of the question, to next Thursday, which was agreed to The other Orders Of the Day were then dispo r t . of, and the House adjourned at half-past Two o'clock. PRICE Or 1 .1 FUCKS 1104 i)Ay AT ON I.:Wt.:LIU. 3 per Cent. Cum. 6861 Lnng. Ann... shut 3 per Itettored, shut 1.1.11. t Bonds lls. 12i. I per i;ent....sikut lixrn 111114, ss, pr, 5. per Cent. Navy 98} I ExcS. Bills, 3d. 4 *. 44. pr. ronstil. for April tiSit f Tirltrib 111. 64. THE STATES.IIIAN TUURSDAY, MARCH 29, 1810. Aoviuts were received in town this set* from Cadiz, by which we hhve the melancholy is. formation, that in consequence of a tremendous storm on the Spanish coast, the following ships have been totally lost. Happily the British Flat rode out the gale, though nut without EMS 44 noise: — Concepcion ll2 gum Montartter, 74 guns Au St. Itamond 7-4 gam. ""- 811 / 1 4114 - Peer Maria Priineria 74 gum, Portage:se. Driven on shore and imt to Cadiz Bay and shout ib ASO British, American, and SpaniAti unrehentmen, lace if b. mooed : among tits former are the Elpetibent, Captain :lama ; J oliy Tar, —6-aain , 1)A Vit : hicinaths, &mast testae PeaaMaata."%= 4,o " - ** 4B c l Alt ; - ftiekani, Teanspast4 • rot, Ditiot Leattetweew the 6th aeithh of March, is Ci4lttlft:l ll , l ship carat by the French. Tate reperts from the Cultiinent are cuticula tot interesting. The Saxon Prineess, whom report had con: signed to the arms of NAPOLEON, is now said to be the destined bride of the Archduke Caixtist , for whom the Grand Duchy of Poland is to bo , created into a kingdom. These reports we give to our readers manly such. Bat ametber report, though peeing in this k marriage, states the Throne of •Spain to be tint on whisk the AncnoexeCHAßLl3 is ID be platti. —The ii.rtecoar King Cniumcs sad tirehd9l l FERDINAND the Vllth. being destined ferSelat America! • King Louts, it is ssid, will continue to reign over the Hollanders, to whom his return will tot, laarsaster s . bet vomit trAl k .41011 the coodution of a General Peale. ON the Debate in the House of Ceramist, last night, so interesting to the People . of Eellandt ". shallot present make but one obsertstio The House may prevent the Peep:stem ArzAtlNti , but they CANNOT PREVENT ThE M FROM THINKING ! This important Question, it will be moo Os i adjourned till Thursday next. The action brought by Mr. AA ttM 111G11 BAILIrr of 'Westminster; for 'his 6, 1166 .1_ Sou the famout.sertitiny, which, doubtless). in the reeeflettitis of many of ate read" W , strongly corroborative of the general arl US if Sir FRANCIS BURDIITT. lt The Htou BAILIFF *ailed OS • pistificalltsO he had acted by the Order of the NOM qf mai:. But the Jury, utttl:r the direed** o( 416 lade, deterteinett that getter to be engq*L it tta) law of the ; 0 4i11--.ll4lviii Mr. Fox a NOP ler 110004. LONDON: 140)4197 1 t s t Poll4.llllllMil 4 ,•rofe +#; .4 ed. `. 1 IF*? ' '1 . vs lz , stas hen F. tier 'lll {OP whi up P k), la d Tint be 1 tiro of t h . e tan lug A llla of 0 ' V td t i. Wit the the t at tl state tprs attic ui igi ail Riot .was :. y~a • K