The Statesman. — London, England, 1822-02-19 00:00:00

an )CH was desires. of correct's' mime of the shalom which had takes plebe respecting sal public meetings. Ho had boos described, le perhaps. bat still so that he was soder alindtd to, as having brought forward this !year, In collusion with the Ooverament, penal inquiry. He swished for that fo b bad takes place, but widish, hi was sorry dens little good. He bad, is the Ana ho ods: it right to ascends his ewe streagth, eagth of those opposed to him. Poetise raise the landed interest to the Injury of este, he had not anticipated much opposi. le commercial and usanufacterieg interests. 'Wag those connected with them interests. at to the Noble Marquees to ask what the it proposed to do. TN Noble Montane Sat Ministers would not oppees s motion I slow, as they felt for tile shasadon of the il slaws as much as he (Mr. Gooch) could 'Mr. Gooch) them said to the Noble Mae- Ms rather surprised that with these &dins let come fordard with smolt measures for L. 'The Noble Marspeis said, taut as a 111- bad oe right to bring *rani a measure meld iffer a remedy,," inked not to hope so the musts' , whledk„might sot he Bet, be wided,• lee mealtosiblbsagly *Mad ittee, and give even/ aid leshis power... the eel she bwqoiry. That pledge Its the Com e Noble •Meremitm bad most telly redeemed. Y respect to the report of 00 Committee, he :. that RP him it appeared worm than ;MIMI. it seem @image, oeusiag from the Cbairusaa seditoe from 'thigh she. Report hail Wow t he Inhered it had . thrones dust in the yes, Mama of epeeist( steeps, and that it t treed them relief or any thug else. Per sight be allowed a few Word* oa what had sat the Noble Marquess l esie.,)ffiday. He the dimmest in many mopeds, moot satis- He begged to congratulate abs Meese on of the louses. of the eoessrp..l It was a aifyiag eircsautaace to find Owl' we were in e of a cleat Slaking Food 'a more than 101. For the racersl welfare of the country eceasary that public credit stionT4 be secured. she came to speak of what the Noble Lord lea the subject of Agricultural Distrem, be set speak truth, if he were to state it to be his , that it would prove satisfactory to the Land west. Ho thought they would ha discos- Imam more was not done. Bat it was one say, that what bad been proposed was not I. sad another to point out what snore ought us. Ho did not see what more could be done, ✓as meat anxious to see as large a diminution I as could be made. consistent with the main s( the great interests of the country. The 1 tdm issMes else of • questity. de was use r• Womb, Dee wish the asmateital emisgth of r em b. mese diusimisbed . bat lie wished for sodesedoms Ia the civil departmeme of both .4 wry. - Wham the ewilmates'easse before the begeolel nee for each reindict, as he doeught leprepoe. When he looked at what had al me dee., Is the coins of the Session, he to,- led the Hesse es the system which bad hoes and he implored all sides of the Haw at this at jam:tore to forget party feeling. and bear sled those words which they heard so often, side all prejudices aid partial affections." and it's bet one ebject—the good of their coestry. I. SHELLEY said, the Hon tieetlensan who I sat down seemed surprised to Bud bow much lie Marquess bad done. He also was surprised a different way—he was surprised to find bow re Noble Marquees bad dose. He thanked the Marquess fur taking off the Malt Duty, bet Ty to see him giving 4,000,0001. to that fal e Sinking Feed. He would not dwell on this sow, as a motion, on Thursday, would bring akin Fund before the House. The diminution ition was called for by the whole country, and opinion the Noble Marquess, in bolstering up siting Food, protected the monied interest at pease of the agricultnee of the country, and ire be was not satisfied. WODEHOUSE did not hesitate to declare that view of the subject the Government did not go mtly far to relieve the landed interest, but be 'molly free to say, that the measures they bad de s hen in the fair course of operation, seemed to kely to prove extensively beneficial. He highly itheuted au Hon. and Learned Gentleman ands ' Lord for the view which they bad taken of the sltural question, and proceeded to show how happier the cultivator in Inland was than the , ator in foreign pans, where the former was st or so oppressed by feudal exactiose. *I his muck resembled that of shear. , ile Amp ion so pet, sod the House, when be h. i recall a debate on the 'abject of dm principal part a whisk lay betwies /fir; . * t and Mr. Horner. He sow wished to obtais • set answer from the Noble Marquess as to the which Government meant to pursue—the prinel• se which they meant to act. He showed the im !see of the questions by describing the agricalts lintels now existing, and then called the attesibMl le Rouse to the sentiments put forth in a kers not one of their Committees which be regarded demi-officiiil document. The Hon. Member this d that he understood a Right Hun. Gentleman on floor (Mr. Huskisson) to be the author of the re. of the agricultural cutentittte, or at least that it his fall concurrence. He begged the House to r him to read some passages from that report.-- ing done so, the Hon. Member inferred that they . at variance with the Right Hon. ileotlemaa' s de r..l opini ons upon former occasions, and cootradic in their o wn nature. His object was to know "what pri nc ipl es t h ey were to proceed. He be ,a,l At no o ne wou ld attribute to him the wish of lis th g angry disesesion upon this topic ; but the gyred, rendered .01 . necessity to which they were : I :. . lere. i t imperative that something should I b red without delay. He believed that no one the talents of the Right lion. Gentleman be- Ilbefe.4 wish to hear receselled s and tree). to bis imitation, be bad is any way sisrispresest• ed the Right Iles. aestivate, so one could be store ready to be set right. Mr. DAVENPORT was of opinion tiles the Noble &largesse had mot by any souse dose sU that the eoeetry bad a right to expect in the way of relief. Tits Noble Marquess bad made a great mistake when be stated that the farmer was taxed wily at the rate of five per eget. He (Mr. Davenport) %mew it is be a feet, that the Cheshire dairy farmer lost at tba rate of 20 per cent., by t►e purchase of salt. Mr. CURWRN could set anticipate that any good would be dose this Session, if the wbolequestionsbould be again thrown open to a Committee. Was not the Noble Lord prepared to submit some plan for revs. latieg the Importation of foreign corn? As to the lean which the Noble Marquess proposed, it would be of little sonic*. If any good was to be effected, far- I thee I-ideation must be made. But this, according so the NehliMarquess, could not be doss. Now, what was his langliage last year, when it was proposed to takeoff the Malt Tax? Why, that the measure was impracticable, and that be would wooer relive his' plass then suede to It; yet,thie year, they found his miming down to the hoes* with • proposition whia. directly contradicted his former statement. If the twos on salt, soap, leather, and candles, were taken off, hi addition to the relief afforded by the reduction of ens shilling a bushel es malt, it would make a difference of twenty per cent. to the farmer, instead of five per cent. as proposed by the Noble Marquess. This re medy, to be effectual, ought to be prompt. It was possible it might be deferred till no advantage could accrue from it. He would not destroy the Sinkieg Fund by taking away the whole of it, but be would postpone its operation la order to give relief to the Agrieniterists; and with that view would wish to see 4,000,000/. of taxes immediately taken off- There was every reason to believe that the greatest danger must lie the consequence, if no effec tual remedy was adopted. It was quite impossible to be Insensible to the present alarming state of the agrikultseal interest. He was of •pinion that much goad might be done by keeping the markets statiso., ary ; and it was in the power of the Noble Marquees' to do this, by adopting some such measure u that to which he alluded on a former night, when noticing the ges. if, when corn fell to a price injurious, to the interests of the grower, 1,000,0001. were em ployed to buy up the soperabuudat supply, 500,000 (looters of corn might then be purchased, and this, must produce a sensible effect upon the market. Ho, contended that whatever went to destroy the MART of the farmer to purchase, must be prejudicial to t tfk eenimercial and manufacturing interests of the tanta try. It was with surprise and regret he hosed tip Hoe. Member for Suffolk say that thanks wont did to Mini fur what ship bed done.--(Haar, helix) Bs timid set 'see 11 , 4 =T v ; ai r da w mossaLs-' Mid le ibll Naas . wed -mew hmeastmendyl &tat year'ttis which last yen they said eseidonet be ibusl-41111bellt hear, hear, groat, the. 91 0 11Wii9 1 1. 3 fikel".4 1-41 . 104 BO doubt whatever bit were plight be done Abel Mir nisters were inclined 'to .accomplish. The Salt Tax alone took away about "Si: Is the year from the poor man. The low price of Ms pig, which to him was a Sinking Fund—(a laugh)--denied him the meant of purchasing salt to cure it ; and be withed the House to consider, that this was a hardship of no slight na ture. lf, however, all the practicable reductions were made, It would make a difference of 40 per cent. to the farmer, and he might thereby be enabled to go on, and live os the produce of his hideosity. At proses* paupers were increasing all ever dm country, in co an t i quesce of farmers being, pylged to get rid of that labourers. It was quite usonniary for him to point out the lamentable iostaidei fiflistrilit which evai l where prevailed losong the arilealtarists;-4 hey *Mk be epee to every body whoodid sot blies** snot his eyes to them. When he Mated that, on aim. occasink he saw 1000 bead of cattle driven of from Smithfield without being able to find a purchaser, be thought it most be milkiest to convincine most ticiPtimil of the deplorable state of the landed Iteterest. He eould wish Oust the Noble Marquess bad witnessed this immure rirertible proof of distress. Next to some practical measure being proposed to the Committee, be wished that an early Report might be and. to the Woe. It (right to be made before Rasa, sr: sue use, emu speedy benefit might result Mils it' "'I ' • Mr. BENETT (Wiltshire) commenced by motion meeting the speech of his Hon. and Learns& Friend (Mr. Brougham) which he particularly admired for its sound political economy, a science so intimately con nected with the interests of agricUlture. He was of opinion that the appointment of another Committee would be an insult to the Agricultural interest. The only object which it could have, mast be to topics into the best means relief ; bat after the statement which had been made by the Noble Marquess, it would li be ridiculous to expect any thing more than he bad promised from a Committee or his own appointing.— The Hon. Member then condemned the principle Id thid Corn Sill, and said that if any regulations were neceol sarv, they had better impose some small protecting duties. Low prices, be contended, would be the most efficient protection to Agriculture, and low prices coma only be established by a reduction of taxation. at considered the Sinking Fund to be a mere deception upon ourselves; and if there ever was a time wises; it could be dispensed with to mon advantage thaw.* other, it was at the present moment. With regard', the plan of lending money to parishes, he bad nci ap prehension upon that account, for he was convineisti that no parish in England would borrow money *atilt terms proposed. He also condemned the baying up , of corn; he did not like to use the word ridiculous; bet it, certainly was the most absurd proposition that erre was made in that House.—(Hear, beer.)—the Hon. Member then reverted to *bathe conceived the original causes of the present distress, and' partienlargy referred it to the hest departure from cash payments. 'that act be considered to Imse.hatio a robbery ceemitted by one portion, of the public on 'mother pottier ik eau that the same act hold been repealed by the let. ilt. which authorised the resumption of a auetal`oic `cal" The last robbery, 'however, wee beereonewilr. 41 MSS • lb.- the of Myer seat. was euessary. He believed that oven that reduction would set afford so mac► relief u a proper reductiou of taxation. lit certainly mast say that the great lasdholders deserved the distress is; width they were Flanged. They bud supported the extravagance of the Atholoistratioa, and helped Se nodose as expensive war for the last thirty years.' As the value of mosey bad Increased thirty-titres per , eget. by the late Act of the recompiles of rub pal mists, he thought it would be bat a matter of pied* fir t►ose who received incomes and 'moistening ft* the State, to enme volootarlly forwird and glee op that amount to relieve the distresses of the country., He conjured those Gentlemen who were resorted with . the lauded interests, to exert the power which they possessed, to relieve it trim lli present dreadful etek of depression. Mr. STUART WORTLltritil . sat is the house when dreised N n•b Sadist Moo plaeas It was said that a radio- the Hon. Nisbet jor it, but he lads hien beard bin biamistif for Lev .g expressed Me ndsfaction at the statement of the Noble Marquess. Now if the Hon. Member :vas to be blamed for this, be begged also to take his share of the blame, for be was quite convinced that the pies proposed was much better calculated to afford substan tial and permanent relief to the country, thee any further repeal of taxes could be at the present moment. The Honourable Member who bad jest spoken stated that the landholders who supported the late war, do 011eted the distress into which they bad fallen. He begged also to may upon this part of the subject that be, so far from taking blame to himself for having supported that war, be al ways considered it u a matter of pride.—(Cheers.) Aid he would tell that Hon. Mem ber, that be firmly believed that if that war bad not been supported, be would have bad a much lies share of his estate than he had at present, under all his dim . He had ever supported that war, as a war which protected the liberties of the people, and he was convinced that if the Gentlemen of England had not Come forward to maintain it' Manfully, this country world now have been a province of France. Hi was very much surprised to hear the Hon. Member of Camleeriand sad the Hon. Member for Cheshire stele, that they were not satisfied with the statement of his Noble Friend, which clearly chewed, that the country was in that prosperous condition of haring above ire million of income over her expenditure. The rit‘idet- Goa of debt would operate to lessen the distress of the landed in t , and be believed that it would be the best and surest means of duiog so. When be said that the statement of his Noble Friend was satisfac tory, he wished to make some explanations regarding parts of it. When be heard that two millions' hid been saved by retrenchment, it was impossible that be should not express his satisfaction ; but he hoped that would trot be a reason why further reduc dew shook/ not be made.—(Hear, hear, hear.) — With regard to the four millions to be borrowed from the Bask the part of it which wit to be tent to the pa. Mat wesithiettaialy give Bich 'ttpritlsfaltfotr. - What the effect of increasing the amoadt of the etrdalatioe would he epos the Fends Le did not know; • But be was quite sure that no good could arise from th 6 pro posed loans to parishes. As to the motion bkore the house, he was surprised that the Hon. Member for Comberland should object to it. What object had they in going into a Committee, but that of seeking the means of preventing too great an influx of core after the opening of the ports? If the Committee produced a measure which would have that effect, it would per form inrportant service to the agricultural interest. Feeling, as be did, that it would be to ruin lb. credit of the country if any farther taxation were taltel'uff, he should not be acting under that sense of dpty which always guided him, Übe did not express his determination to oppose it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. RICARDO conceived that the Hoo. °whiten who spoke last laboured under a great mistake, when he spoke of a Sinking Fund as the means of relieving the agricultural interest, for he was convinced that the ap 7 plication of such a fund would not lower the rate of in. terest. It might have the effect of raising the funds; but could not lower the rate of interest, which mast kb mays be regulated by Orofits; and profits aroldoever increase while taxation was upheld to a great amount. He was ready to admit that a Sinking Fund would be of great advi.ntage to the country, if it were applied to the object for which it was ietended—(hear, bear I)—but after the experience the country had already - clad of sinking funds—the fund of Sir Robert Walpole and Mr. Pitt--.and after it wee known that the present Chan cellor of the Exchequer had made away with the whole of the Sinking Fand created by Mr. Pitt— (hear, hear,)--after these things were so well known, he would ask whether the nation was ever again to ex pect any good from such a measure? He was confi dent, 114kie fund went on, that, after the lapse of a few years, we should have the same account of it that was given of the former sinking funds. The Hon. Member for Wiltshire had eulogised the speech of his Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham), and afterwards to astonishment, disapproved of most of the sentiments contained in it. The taxes on Agriculture bad long subsisted, and must be lowered when produce should fall. As to the maintenance of public credit, bethought the claim of the fundholder was a claim, not on land holders in particular, but en the whole property of the country; tad he wished it might be shown in what respect the faodholder received more than his just share. (Here Mr. Brougham interposed, by observing, that what he bad said was, that it was only in case the distress became intolerable. [He (Mr. Ricardo) could see no chance for relief to the agricultural in terests while the present Corn Laws remained ' ; and therefore it would be necessary to alter them. He disapproved of the plan of advancing four millions for the relief of the agricultural interest. The Bank had now got a quantity of gold sufficient to carry on their business; they were now doicg the worst measure they could adopt, by going to issue four millions of money; and by imereasingtheireletulation they would send a great quantity of their gold out of the country; and he reconl mended wheat to consider whether the quantity of gold they now bad was more than sittficient for their operations. .The Bask began to pay in gold too s : they ought whim paid only in hellion till 1823. They ought so lave sad ea vont ed so keep the exchanges at par. and pe.reat gold trout coining to :uis country. If b:s•f: tie.. sru sire it mast be abaedesed. If any maa,casse •I that Hens* AO sold be mild sot get a mmanersti price for 114:oommoditles. he was sere the Hoses mist shut the gape ',pea him. He could not see what bene fit farmers were likely to derive from the emelt tic proposed to be taken from a particular predigest. If the tax was taken off agrioultural produce, the benefit would be to the canvassers. who were aready with taxes; and that was a reason why taxes ought to be lowered generally, and why expenditure slight to be diminished by every possible means. Taxation was a general evil upon all people ; and it could opt be paid that an tax should be lowered for the sake of any particalse class of persons ; for every tax affected all • descriptiom of persons equally alike. He felt was impossible that England could go on with an ;across ' leg population, and eve op the idea of importing food from other cowries. If the Bank Directors had well understood the principle of currency. they might always hatiOept every thing in a wholesome state. At the time the landowners raised their rents, they ea. .0,0, a benefit certainly much greater titan the fent . holders ;, hat then they had experienced very gee losses ea account of the alteration in the correecy, and, op the whole, were rather losers than otherwise. Mr. BENETT explained. Mr. MANNING spoke is a low tone, and from under the gallery, and he was therefore very imperfectly beard, is the gallery. He defended the coodact of the Batik. To restore the currency, that Conspary bad exerted themselves most sincerely; in furtherance of that:object there had been large levies of gold.— Some bed supposed that the Bank had contributed to the dinsinatioa of the quantity of money in circulation; but if Hot. Members turned to the Appendix of the Report of 1819, they would find that the amount Ikea oat was 25,000,5001. By reference to receat they would learn that there were notes in circulation to site mamma of 18,000,000 i. besides the large issllleS of gold ; there was, in fact, now ix circulation one millietsrare than at the time of the pairsiog of Mr. Peel's Bill. The Hop. Member next adverted to Ilse distressed state of agriculture. He rue understood to attribute part of the farmers' dideelties to the with drawitag of that support which they bad been accus tomed to derive from the conetry bankers. They coast set extend the customary accommodations, twin to the fluctuating prices of coo; thus, io llKM ssesence of the low prices, and the ablenee of colony beak aceonsmodatione, the farmers had final ditbeae ties is being prepared with their rents. Mt. SYKES thought the question before the house, was whether the Agricolteral Committee shoal(' be re , appointed; and when he heard that the effect of shelf first labours was only to mystify, be certaiely Active vote against their cootiounace, as be should look fir teething else but a renewed mystlficatioe in their et - - sewed labours. He was happy to hear the oploioas of the Hoe. Member fur Suffolk (Mr. Hooch), toed eh is of arethir Mos. Member, and be feasted that berate shaded of the :present Bonk' thug IsfiliWliate speed their tyre, and Wald -iiiiitivieSV:thet it wile the/Orme that bed been se !eaglet - int by thiheivahWf which bad caused the present discreet: Fie could Wet see with the Hon, Member for Yorkshire, any goitre! of satisfaction io the statement of the Noble Marqitei's That Noble Marquess had held out the hope of as et eess of five millions of income beyond the expenift ditare; but this bad been held out ever and over netts by the Chancellor of the Becheqeer, and every Moot bad turned out to be a delusion. Another soorint'of thatisfaetion to the Hon. Member for Yorkshire was the contemplated rise upon stock. To be sere, if flat Nee. Member were advocating the cause of the stoelD balder this might be very satisfactory ; hot he (Nir./ S.) could not see how a rise irr the price of stoeV . ;would put bread into the months of the starving lA7 bearer*, or rent into the pockets of. he had al•mitt said, the starving landholders. Yet, es he laid agile all party fi , eling on this important subject, he won admit that there were some passages in the sta•e meal eif the Noble Marquess which had his ent;.e concurrence. He (Mr. Sykes) agreed that the e should be a surplus, whatever might be its name He did•hot approie of what was calla the Sinkii Fend, but *hatever the thing might be called, wished to see a surplus of revenue beyond expenditure. He thought also with the Noble Marquess that roach f the d istrers was attributable toe superabnr of pro. .andante of pro _ &smelt bet he did not admire the proposed remedy. nit burthens must be lightened, soffit would not be stidff: ciest for us to wait fur the chance of relief. When be considered the vote in favour of retrenchment, ti wide% the House had come lase Session, lie could neY but feel surprise when he found that •all which was` Ipeoperied to be dose, was to take off one shilling per , Beebe! of the tax upon malt; to lend to parishes through' 11116 medium- of Exchequer Bills ; and he was sorpriseld tbat'any man, pretending to be a Statesman, shtittll litiatach the latter plan to an English House of Corti7 issimas. The effect of it would be to repeal Mr. Peei's: Bill, by making a fresh issue of paper ; and it was *tits thy of remark, that the btarrewets of t his pa pet would be liable to all the laws of extent ; the sedate of properti, sad the imprisonment orperson, with the benefit of the insolvent or the bankrtipt laws. !lips was the relief which was proposed for the Conakry Oentleilien These were the risers which met with Oaf unqualified neeent of the Member for Toticshire! In his (Mr. Sykes's) opinion, the only possible relief was to he found in the reduction of tuella:1; is a reduction of the expenses in the Army and Nairy, the Ordnance and the Civil Establishments. The itopriety of such a redaction had been clearlg shown by the Member for Aberdeen ; and although.be (hifir.'3.) did nut ask th it the expenses should be reduced hot the scale of 179 2, lie did ask that they should hear a proporti.in to tt at period, which at present they did not. 'Fist Noble Marquess had said onja former %lest' that a ;tan lini• army wan sweetest.' 4 to secure' the libfitiei of INV country. Now he (Mr. S.) bad heard from siniiithlY the liberty of the Presn wits neeesseiy to secure tCfsti libertieh. From others/ be had !mate that' thet , west; b,st secured to the due adosittistrafitti w Ojlt . .tide and be bad heard otney other sifeguirdi Biggesthd ; butt be never heard:the thought be netei heard from any one, aid still 114 fitiui" a . 111Aqtei, that the liberties . of Engllghtiten !SIM besktf/Atsy a *tending army: Then tte'lleard dna n opirifiinle,im such is quarter, isktould not look fx hitch redaction • • , , • 1 • i • . • • 46, 44110 . • 1 t • I • 1. . , $ I i • 1 i • I I ' .4 I • • .1 • • . • t 4 1 . 1 1 4 H . 411 111 i A 1 . - I I: • 1.