The Statesman. — London, England, 1810-05-12 00:00:00

. . • , . r i o t to -all upon him for his views' et *his opinion. tjlu pri itts oCestiiool he stated &AV; but every he had sal I , every propositionlie had offer. e , t , w et by them diaregattleil. No one was more protnpt than the Right Honourable Gentleman (Nlr. Pcrceval) Jo controvert, and the House in i ts wisdom was pleased to overrule them. Ne. vat e t .i..ei, lie then felt it his duty to Stand by t ie ivileees of the Commons of Englama ; and i n the exercise of that duty, in advertion to the pirtieular line of conduct which in his view e o ield then be pursued, be begeed to impress tears the Il nose the paramount and absolute wessity of "tittering, in every step that it to ,k, to the ancient rule of practice observed by their ancesters, in their contests fur the preservation of their privileges. He Was aware that in what I, Le was aboet to recommend, he run the risque of ' es pesing himself to a- considerableategree of polio.' lir odium. But that man would ill deserve cons,. der ition, who, deterred by the appiehension • of popelar reproof, would, in any great atorpress. ing emergency, surrender to his feats the comic. tion of his judgment. [Hear, hear!] By such an impression he trusted never to be iooduenced to swerve hoes his public duty. Never, he trusted, when the events of that day becatni the subject of future recital and remark, should it be said of him, if so humble an individual had claim to o bservation, that ho was a man, who, in cone tratliction to !Os fullest convictioa, but in cons. pliant-0 with popular delusion, surrendered the pri. u,'eges of the Commons of Linked, and by such surrender, gaveS fatal and irrecoverable blast tothe liberties of England. [Hear, hear, heart]— , It .rerting then to the ancient rule of practice, it' was invariably the custom of that House to Coln luit atiy pet s.in %she made himself the instroment o f calling into geestioti its privileges. Upon that rule of practice, he did feel it his duty to state Lis *pinion, that the Solicitor who had caused 1 , the notice of action to be served upon the 5 0( eaker s hould be committed. Snob a course was nut alone the practice. of that house; it oas acted upon its all Courts Wrested with the power of cominittnent for a contempt Of its jurisdiction. in the Court of Chancery, for instance, is here an injisitetion had been granted to stay pro ceedings in an action) at law, the attorney who would, after such venture to proceed, would subject himself to an attivhitiont, and be most certainly punished for a conterasitt of the jti.., visdicliun of I liat Copt t. Was not then the House of Commons folly empowered to take steps against , a solicitor ago hail proceeded to call its Speaker to answer for conduct taken in obedience to its will, an,l which that Moose had adjudged to he tie. cosary for the protection of its privileges? Most undoulatedly it had, and itS in such a ease the must correct tine was to follow the conduct of their aticeetors, the, enforcement of such a right in th'e present instance was must advisable. The nest triestion tip be considered was the peculiar situation. l in which the Speaker of that House was at present' ;laced. To many Members it appeared a most mon. Oren: nomelty, that the Speaker or the House of Coitetioes shoild be obliged to appear in trite of the Gems below, for an act which .he had dime, I n persitance of the orders of that House. A novel procetelieg it certainly .seme for whith there was no orticadent ; al to an.action brought against the Sp. akeri and of ItofOrmation, the in. ances were rare. Yet nsenstious as it appeared to sone, and novel as it must seetn to ail, it was his ferns persuasion that the Speaker ought to appear and to put in his plea to the action. Stich course was open to him without the slight. vat appreliensi in of his surrendering in the re. m itest decree the privileges of that House, and such course the House could adopt, al. thiingli it had determitted to commit the Solici tor. Xs an illeet:•ation of that opinion, he would septum OW Cage of an individual committed by the Coert of Chancery for contempt, whose soli citor instituted an action in a Court of Law for false i•iiitrisonnieut against the Chancellor. What were the steps which it must be auestinteil the L ,rd Chancellor Would - under such tin:11111%W -C•S take ? For himself he would say, that if sech a proceeding hail , occurred o lien he had the honour of holding the Great Seal in Ireland, he would have certaittl‘; felt it his bounden ditty, under the juristlictinn of nit own Court, to commit the solicitor, and to appear it, the Court of Law to put iii his plea. Fur unless such a COIIIIIIC was atio;):Cil, how was it possible fur the Courts to be apprized of the nature of the vase ?...,tow ass it *ossible for them to inform themselves of those facts, without the knowledge of which they could not know whether the injury complained of vas I'olllllloo in a private or public capacity ? With respect to that House agreeing to Resolu tions in the shape of prohibitions to the Courts of Law not to entertain causes in which its privileges were involved, such a course was a complete no veil y, on which be coil,' not be expected &cid rully to pronounce ; ina,sattich es in the whole teens(' of reading ate! of practice be had never met with such a precedent. It was necessary that the Courts should be informed of the nature of the-proceeding. The difficulty was as to the mats., tier of nuking the communication. Stiveld the Speaker write ? If he did so, and were he (Mr. l'onsietby) a Judge, presidieg in the Court u here titUalrOCCV. was instituted, without meanin g ] any lbersofial disrespect to the Speaker, he would most certainly take no notice of the letter, nor treat it in that Cutlet with the smallest respect. If, then, there was no proper mode o? . pro.' reeding, either by prohibition from that House, or by notification from the' Speaker, how else was. Co. House to proceed, except by his appearance? , For, surely, to leave the Court of Law in inor once of the future of the case, and afterwards to find fault and tit:oriel with proceedings which that Court might allow, from the want of the Worms. tom which the Speaker could give, would be an es. treme exercise of tthe power of t bat House, a as etch of its privileges, %which, with some justice, might subject then) to the severest reprobation of the people. IJponl4very view of the case, it was his opinion that the Speaker should plead, and that the plea should' state, that the act of which the Plaintiff complai.ned was done in obedience to the - .orders of the House of Comuions) and that , `77". • TRZ there existed in no other Court a power to ielidve him. If after that appearance was made, and such information was communicated, a Court of Law should still think proper to proceed, by such act it would, in his view, most certainly exceed its jurisdiction...it would go far beyond the limits of its authority and power ; but, indeed, he could not bring himself to conceive that any constitutional tribunal of the land, that any Judge would ven ture..-venture he would not say, because he could not imagine that those placed in such wise and .ele vated situations could, under any circumstances, be guilty of that' which would most certainly amount to a gross dereliction of their duty..-a ' gross transgression of the law of the land. But such a consequence he could not anticipate, feel ing the confidence he did in the learning, the wisdom, and the purity of the legal tribunals of the country. Nor would he restrict that con fidence to the Courts of Law ; but would extend it most anxiously to the good sense and observa tion of the country at large. Should events unfor tunately prove that he had been mistaken in the depeudence that he had placed upon the nation's sense—should it, or any considerable portion of it continue •to be impressed with the fallacious thought that the possession of the privileges of the House of Commons was fatal to the liberties of the peoplethould it exert itself for the pernici. ous purprise of undermining those Privileges, then most certainly the people of England would be greatly and fatally misled. [near! heart] It was not because Jhe tote of that House, upon this or that; public measure, was opposed to the wish and opinion of the people; it was not because their representatives had evinced a conduct which I the constituent body at large disapproved ; it oat nut beeanse &MO of their decisions could not be defended, that the power of the Commons of Ettgland sheetd be then curtailed. No ; • they Were to be defended' even under such circuit). stances, because a blow aimed at them even in aIsaa•UOUSO Of 'Commons would affect and over. throw its privileges, and. with them the people's liberties t brought every succeeding Parliament. Bet it might be contended that the possession and. exercite of such' privileges as that recently ques. Limned was too great and too dangerous to be continued in any Ilouse of Commons. They were, Iwo ewer, berm: in periods of our history is which the people of England were . most high met. tied, and jesluits of the slightest invasion of their 11aertiet.. They were admitted in some of the best periods of our history, whit many of our ablest predecessors were engaged in arduous centests for the rights of the people. •Ulear,heart] lewas sincerely to be hoped that the people would continue to respect them, inasmuch l as they were the best barriers of protection to their own most valuable interests. For iii that [louse ought the people to expect, and to it they should look for security anti protection. There was a new doctrine afloat, and a strange direction given to the polestar hop:. %Whilst their reclines were estranged from the Commons, the roil's; of Ens;- find were directed to look to the Crown for the guardianship of their rights. What! the Crown protect the liberties of the English peoale ? At . tacked as he was to limited monarchy, he would csiu. to there never was, during the o hole period of oar history, a monarch, except the virtsunannmarch ~now upon the throne of these realms, who ever • loved a House. of Commons...there never was a King, with the same exception, who was nut an enemy to public liberty. Ile Cosmic)i this apinion upon no invidious comparisons of one reign with another. It was human nature ; amid taere never yet lived the man who loved th it power, which acted as a controul upon his wishes and his pas.. suns. That the family of Brunswick would long c infinite to support these principles, for the de fence of which the people of this kingdoms placed them on the throtie, all were ready to believe. — But who would take Nine himself to say, that e ven in future successions of that I amity a Prince might not appear jealous of the influmice of the people, and anxious to destroy their weight in the constitutional balance. Under such a state of events, to whom could the people, look for protection and support ? What branch of the Constitution 'could they depend upon ((tea success. ful Tes' istance. to the encroachmetts, that threaten ed their liberties with extinction? To the House of Commons in the full possession of those privi. hies, the etlicacy of which the rash and the the. laded would slow wish to diminish ?—[blear! heart.] Was it not the Haase of Comment, supported by the.voice of the nation, that resisted successfully the tyrannic encroachments of the Stuarts, and ultimately dethrone.l that family, when it was found impossible to indlice them to de sist from their arbitrary prucedings ? Never was there propagated doctrine more pernicious and de. lusive than that which' went to alienate from that (louse the popular confidence, in order to give it to the Crown. True it might be, that from acts of that House the confidence of the Nation was sbaketi— trite it might be, that it was considered• rather the instrument of the Minister than the organ of the public voice (an opinion which considered pressed ton far in this country) ; yet even under all these a dmissions, it was not upon the Crown that he could be; induced to depend for the preservation of the people's rights. if the grievauces of which the country complained were to be attributed to the construction of that House, let that construction be altered, if the Nation wished and demanded it. But whilst it was necessary that a discretionary potter 'should exist, where, he asked, could it be entrusted with more safety, than to the Representatives of the People. of Esigtatid? (hear, hear!) But then it had been contended, that though there was no objection to concede a discretionary power to that Honse, yet its exercise should be limited. Was then the Court of King's Bench, or was public opinion to be the standard of regulating to what extent the power should be exercised ? If the King's Bench was to possess the power of try. ing the legality of its 'privileges of commitments for libel, it would be invested with the powex of being the J u dg e of every privilege' of that House. There could b e no limitation,' The very. right of .holding a plea in the case of l net would constitute the right of trying Ai extent of privilege in any ether cue. Suppose a per. `IITSMAN. ... F -- ult. sote wa s committed for striking and violently assa ing the Scrjeant at Arms, er any Messenger of the House in the execution of their duty, and that for sloth breach of privilege it committed him. He brings his action in a Court of Law ; nothing can prevent hint, and the Cowl most hold plea, upon the principle, that it had interfered before in the caseof libel, and that it must now see whetter the House of Cominorm bad the power to do.the act or nut. In such case, what became of the privileges of the Commons of England? Again—was public opinion to be the criterion fur limiting their exercise? Set up such a standard, and fancy,if you can, the mischiefs which would must infalliby be the consequence. 'Then would you place the privileges of this House at the mercy of contenditig factions, both bid. ding against each other at this auction of popula rity, until privilege and liberty fell a sacrifice to their selfish and unprincipled objects. [llear l hearl] One democracy of faction would he destroyed only to be succeeded by a worse; extinction of all order and all virtue would follow in their train, ultimately to secure the absolute rule of a single individual [hear, hear!!. Let the country fealeill. ber the miseries under, which, hem such causes, it once suffered : Let it remember the recovery it has had : Let it remember that period of its history when, in the reign of the first Chariest, that unhappy Prince was redticed by the constitutional exertions of .the House of Commons to desist, in a great degree, from his arbitrary acts of prerogative, and the sa. lutary prospect presented itself of a free and legi. innate government. From what causes was it that such exertions proved abortive ? It was because a faction sprung tip in that House and in this mom. try, who, arrogating to themselves all the pa. ttiotisin and public spirit •ia the asation, misre presented, defamed, and crushed the wise and 1 hottest men of all parties [hear, . hear !]--..a faction who possessed great talents but no vir tues (hear, hear !)---with purity in their mouths, but profligacy in their hearts...who talked of li berty, but meant dcpotism [Cries of hear, hear! from both sides of the House] who sought the Lord but found I Crown. [lteiterated cries of hear, hear 1) if England, with the example of all former ages before her,. and particularly with the awful example of such a calamitous visitation, .shall be so infatuated as to relapse into such dan. gerous and delusive errors, then I pronounce that she is doomed to sutler more grievous calamities than has ever yet befallen any nation upon the earth, [Bear, hear!] atol what is more galling, and te..,se aggravated, she is doomed so to suffer unditied and unreprieved. [Continued applause, from both sides of the House.] Mr. ADAM expressed his intention not to tree. pass at any length upon the attention of the Hoe* , tarter the (bend, constitutional, and eloquent speech which lie had just beard from his Right, Bon. Friend. '!'here Was nut, either in 1113 prin. tildes, doctrines, or illustrations, a single point that did •not conic home to his miud with feeling amid kith conviction. But most particularly did he acquiesce with hilt in the reprobation which he pronounced on that monstrous - delusion of inking for popular protection to rho Crown,' by disregarding the. House of Commons., Before the motion was put, he was anxious (although it might he inefficient to prevent the process in the pieseet case) to Lamm. uouttilt; dowse the ne cessity of coating tort declaratiett, which to in limina, put an end to a ll such applicatireer against the privileges of that House, which would so de. tine i.s privilege, and operate in the Courts below as a bar to such actions as effectually as if it were a physical bar. There teasels°, in his opinion, a motion that should preckle the present ; untie. terred by any unpopularity that may follow from supporting it, he still felt Whit duty to cling to the ancient practice of that Hense, and to avow that, in his opinion, ii was incumbent on it to commit the Solicitor. Such a course might not in that stage of the business, probably prevent the ac. tion going on awhile, but it would secure the privi leges of that Ilottse. Were that measure adopted, things would be as correct as possible up to the present period. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declared, that the general tenor of the eloquent speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman oppo sites was such, that he should he sorry by recur. ring to any irritating subject, to interrupt the im pression which that speech must necessarily have ' Untie on the House. Ile could not refrain from repeating his regret, that iii a case in which the :Bight nun. Gentleman himself conceived that. the rights and privileges of the House, were at stake, he had abstained, from lending his assistance to the Committee, in order that they might arrive at a right conclusion. Thu Right lion. Gentleman had talked. of the unfortunate situation in which the House stood :..-What unfortunate situation? Only that situation to which it must be neces. sarily exposed on every exercise of its privi leges, however moderate. The mere temporary iusprisonment of a Member, for the purpose of bringing him to the Bar to, receive a reprimand, would form as good a ground for an action as the rash step (as the Right lion. Gentleman termed it) which he had advised the House to adopt with respect to Sir Francis Burdett. Besides, could any one who had observed the subsequent conduct of that honourable Baronet doubt, that if be had beets brought to the Bar to be reprimanded, in. stead of having been sent to the Tower, he would have preferred an action against the Speaker for ordering him into custody, - or that he would, wlleit at the Bar, hare so insulted the dignity of the House, as to drive them to the adop. tiun of the severer measure ? With w hat justice, therefore, could it be said that the House bail been . brought into unheard.of and 117peakable calamity and distress? If there were any imbecility in their privileges, he did not regret t hat that inibeci. lity had beets discovered at a time whets they would have ample opportunity • either to consider the mode of protecting the rights which they. had, 'or the constitutional means of acquiring the power to protect them. ibi deprecated, therefore, such 'an emphasis on the diiiculty of the Battalion in which the House was placed, confident that the !Mouse had nut exercised a right which they did not possess—he was 'confident that they had ttot ex. ceded dais privileges-46 was eaufithiut that au authority, no Judge in the lan 1, when he learned that it was a question in which the privileges of the House of Commons were implicated, would determine upon it. lie entertained no appre. hension, therefore, that either the dignity or the privilege of the House of Commons was endangered. The Law prescribed the course which the House ought to pursue, and %%bleb thew might therefore tread without danger. After al. lading to the precedent of Sir F. Pemberton and Sir T. Jones, he adverted to . the statement made by his Honourable Friend, namely, that a letter might be written by the Speaker to the Lord Chancellor, on which the Chancellor would use cessarity issue a writ of supersedes:. Although he could not admit that this alternative of his • Hon. Friend was so absurd as it was asserted to be, yet, as such a measure would be effective only during the Session, he must allow, that the proceed. ' lug would be of too limited a nature for the House 10 adopt. He, amt those who acted with him, had been thought deficient in their duty fur not hae. leg recommended the commitment of the So. licitor. For his part, he thooglit it wise in the ileum) not to avail itself fur that purpose of the unprecedented and unnecessary notice which hail been.sent to the Speaker. If the House had con. milted the Solicitor by whom that notice was tent, which they had an unquestionable right to do, was it not probable that another Solicitor would have been appointed who would not have sent a notice but would hare brought an action ? Would the House hive committed hint fur that? flow could they distinguish whether that action was preferred against the Speaker in his public or in his private capacity. If they had asked he Solicitor, he would probably have 'answered that the interests of his client require 3 seers cy.--Woutd the Ilnuse have 'committed him on that statement ? if they had done so, he thought they should have acted rashly. It nos in the anticipation therefore of all those dilfieu). tics that the commitment of the Solicitof had not • been recommended. Those who had told him that lie was wrong in advising the commitment of Sir F. Burdett without foreseeing that he would re. sist the warrant, could surely not censute him fee not having advised the commitment of the Soli. citor. Besides, in thit case, the /Liege *old have to commit the Barrister. If one Barrister was committed. another might be found; or no. thingneed be done by the. parties, but to n ait till the cud of the Session, when they would be at li. " berty to proceed. By any such commitments, therefore, the House would only have shown their resentment, without being able to vindicate their privileges. The openness with which be found it necessary to speak on these subjects, induced him once More to lament that the Honourable Gentle men opposite felt such an alienati.in to an ap. roach to their political adversaricsi even on A subject of such general interest, that they would not join them in the'Committee, in which it could be so much better discussed. With respect to th e proposition recommended by his Honour. able Frived who had immediately preceded him, he thought that the House would do well to adopt the motion before them in preference to it ; and .adverting to the assertion of the Xoble Lord who had spoken early in the debate, that this course was novel in principle, he positively denied that assertion.. That the Il e use.slid nut Abrog feel themselves called upon to he vindicators of their own authority was established by numerous prece. dents.. It was a matter entirely of discretion. In cases of moving fur a ilubes; Corpus, the Judges could not issue the writ, because, until the return aas made to it, they could not asc..rtain the cause of commitment. Invariably, however, such per. sons were remanded. If the Solicitor knew the cause of the commitment of his client- , -which he unque,tionably must, ho was sullied to commit. meta himself for the proceeding. 'I here was nu in. stance, however, he believed, in which such a eoni. mitment had taken 'place ; but there were any instances in which it had ne; taken place. lie maintained that there was nu more reason for committing the Solicitor in the case under dikes sion, than there was for committing aSolicitor who had sued out a Writ of Babes, Corpus on an iudividual committed to his' knowledge for a breach of the privilegek of the House of Com mons. In both cases the House might if they chose exercise the privilege of commitment, and in both cases it was perfectly in their dissuasion to abstain from it. He cgratulated the House thst on the present questio on n there appeared very little likelihood of any difference of opinion. lie re. ' juiced particularly that on that part of the sub. jest upon which he had apprehended the greatest difference, there seemed a general cuncerrence of sentiments. lie had feared that those who were impressed with the necessity of carrying the pr:. vileges of the House with ailigh lead, would have been inclined Co proceed with extremities, which he was glad to find they did not propose. Mr. PONSONBY, in explanation, observed, that the Right lion. Gentleman had misquoted Aim. What he had said was, that that Right Honourable Gentleinan had led the lionse to the exercise of its privileges in a case which did not call for it, and which called for the disapproba. tion of the publit.. lie thought it an unfortunate situation fur riot Heine, when .. considerkble .proportioti of the people disapproved of its pre. ceedingi. . . . Mr. C. W. WYNNE agreed most folly In every thing that bad fallen from his Right floneareble Friend (Mr. Ponsonby). He held it to be , the duty .f that House to, follow up .tho steps which bad ban tioddett by its predecessors. Hy &mild be for committing any Solicitor, whom he could collect from circumstances to be apprised of his being engaged In heloging an action against the s pea ker bi violation of the privileges of that House. ThisiOns his opinion; and, however un. eopular it might be, he should be ashamed if he (weld abandon his duty, or hesitate to declare It. Sir S. agailinitit, after the part he had taken in the former discetsions upon this subject, could nut suffer the present question to go to a vote without oiling a few words, to state shortly his opinion raectiug certain doctrines which had been advanced in the course of that night's discudion. Qe the creation he bad no doubt ,whatever; as, in _. S Fr it Ira 4 n ~. - .