The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-05-08 00:00:00

111 41 . \• „ ~; Dipzitur. Pdi~blkMEP J. 'BOWIE of comkosp;, MAY 7. The third beading of the Etabestiemont Bill was postponed to Weduesday meet. PADDINGTON CANAL. On the Motion that the Report of the Paddington and Lime. house Cana) Bill be taken into consideration, Mr. cagEVEY, after some observations, moved that It be taken lota oasidatatian this day fortnight. Mr. MANNING opposed the Amendment, on the ground that ! those totausted In the Bill lad already ex' erienced too sash Mr. BIDDU I•Pli supported the Amendment, contending fbr t„ . ":11AM opposed the Bill, which he did on the groun:i dim k - .vas one of a series of measures which would tend to cut up aiti deprive the M•tmpolis of the salubrious effects that would re :•t Irma the Mary-le-bone Park. It ought to he kept open as free for the benefit of the town. Mr. : • )I.li PARE` . denied that the new Canal would de prive Mary-le-hare of its " openness"—of any of those advan tages which tended to promote the salubrity of the town. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when a division took place. The numbers were— For the original Motion - - 49 Against it - 15 Majority - - —St The Report was then received. None of the Subscribers to the Canal voted. Report agreed to, and the Bill ordered to beengrossed. DUBLIN CANAL. Mr. W. W. POLE presented a Petition from the Directors of the DoMin Canal, praying for aid.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. W. POLE save no'ice, that he should to-morrow move for leaveto bring in a Bill to mate better provision for the Pe titionen DISTRESSED MANUFACTURERS. Oa the Motion of Mr.. BROUtaIAiM, the house then re solved itself into a Committee on the Petitions respecting the present distressed state of trade. Several witnesses were examined. • Mr. George Naylor, Mr. Benjamin Row, Mr. Josiah Wedge wood son Mr. Ralph Stevenson, were urnonget . the witnesses examined. Shortly before nine o'clock the House resumed, and the Com mittee °bylined lease to sit again. TELLERS OF THE EXCHEQUER. Mr. CREEVEY rose to make his Motion with respect to the Tellers of the Exchequer. He would explain, he said, as briefly as possible, what was the nature of the grievance which it was the object of his motion to have redressed, and-what would be an ap. propriate remedy. The Hen. Gentlemen then pro ceeded to detail the various fees receivable by the Tellers of the Exchequer, Lord Buckingham and Lord Camden, which, he contended, were inordinate. Their teceipts, he observed, in time of peace, did not amount to more than 20001. per ann. each, but, since the war, in consequence of the increased ex. penditureof the nation, had been raised several thou sand poutuls. They did not now receive less than the interest of one million sterling, and he begged the House to consider this fact in conjunction with the manner in which other men, who had mot, after all, deserved much less of their country than Lords Buck ingham and Camden, ere remunerated. The pen sions which' had been granted to Lord Nelson, Lord Wellington, and other defenders of their country, did not, in the aggr:gate, form any thing like the sum which was received by those Noble Lords.— That there should be so great a distinction made be tween these late and all . r Olficers of the Crown, he could perceive no reason for, and the object of his motion was to create an equality in this respect.--. He was aware that he would be told that the grant of these offices was as valid as any other made by the Crown ; but there was in his opinion a very ma- terial distinction between such grants as were made by the Crown out or the estates, immediately belong 'g to it, and those, the funds of which were to be sv,,ght for in the public revenue. He was of opinion that the Noble Lords themselves would never main tain the converse of this doctrine. He would like to see their counsel appear at the Bar of that House, pleading that their clients had a right to maintain the splendour of their rank by contributing to the ruin of their country. The Hon. Gentleman then pro ceeded to read a document, in which the opinion of Sir Arthur Plggott,and several other eminent Lawyers was deliveree, to the effect that offices similar to that under the consideratieln of the House, were proper objects of Parliamentary interference ; and contend: . ed that it would be absurd to consider any office so sacred which would give to its owner emolument greater than those with which the nation thought proper to reward a number of Naval and Military Commanders, who had so much contributed to the glory and welfare of their country. Ile stated, that the increase of income to each of the Noble Lords, resulting from the annuity lately granted to the Princesses, alone amounted, to 2001. per ann. ; and after animadverting on the impolicy of grants of so lavish a nature at the •present time, ,concluded moving seven Resolutions, calculated to put into action the principles laid down in his speech. • - These were seconded by Mr. P. MOORE. - ' The CHANCELLOR . . of the EXCHEQUER contended; that it would be taking a very erroneous view of the subject to put the question on a similar footing with any matter litigated in u Court of Jus tice, as the Ron. Gent. seemed disposed to do: It was the unquestionable right of the Crown to grant such offices as those towards which the present mo tion was directed, and which were coeval with the Exchequer itself. The question was not one with respect to which •Parlientewtcoold with an, propriety interfere; the subject was not new to Parliament, principles of a similar nature to those advanced by the Hon. Gent. had been upheld, hut were not ad mitted. The economical saving which any alteration in the offices might produce to the station, would by no means balance the inconveniences that would re sult from breaking in as it would do upon all the plinciple by which the stability of property was maintained. Mr. PONSONBY said, that there was no species of estate more fully recognized by the law of Eng. land than that which was founded on the grant of an office for life ; if Gentlemen doubted this UlllOll, they would find it confirmed by a reference to those writers, who were considered as competent autho rity on the subject. Such an estate, he would re. peat, was as much protected by the laws as every other of any description whatever. He was not in clined to deny that Plrliament had the power to inter. fere in the regulation of such offices, bat he entirely denied that it had such a right. The grants, it was said, had for their object the Public benefit, and• should not be suffered to continue longer than they appeared calculated for the attainment of that end. The CroWn itself was held a sacred trust for the be nefit of the people, by }vhom the *accession wits aemeti.nes regulated . Parliament had indeed inter. fered with the revenues Al the church, -bu t that hap ppned during th e tuo+iflEeot - }Mblic calamity, acid • ••• Tilt STATESMAN. ',: =. i queStiort ought to be decided, it should be formalir tried in a Court of Law. He maintained t tat. p u i, chaser of the life interest of eithe r of T e u er. ships for a valuable consideration could not :a. ou s t ed in any Court of Judicature a'fter the .Net of 17gt,ie whiuh the vested interest of the holder was acknoe. • ledged by Parliament. Mr. VANSETTART explained. Mr. CREEVEY declared hi s i n t ent i on of not di. yid; lig the House on his original resoitationi, but o r , the amendment of his Hon. Friend. Mr. BRAND moved his amendment, which u R; , " That a Committee be appointed to enquire into the prerp dents which exist, as to the deduction from, or fit,pprki4;o/1 any fees payable to the Tellers of the Exchequer tor Lou°, seed out of the tame." After a remark from the CHANCELLOR of . EXCHEQUER, the House divided upon Brand's AMendment. For the Amendment Again.t it , • - - even was a niessure only to be resorted to foe the _ .11 of Tattles holding offices which might he evert of a State, and iu nowise to he touched during the harritably secured to them, and of which not even the times of internal peace. IVlienever public property most wiirtute.perqvisite could he touched without the placed itself in opposition to individual property, , consent of the parties. This he' should be sorry to then an end approached to all property whatever. dispute with hie Right Hon. and Learned Friend,— ' That those emoluments of office arnse from the bur- Ile should admit th at the Crown had th e p ower to dens of the 14opte he was not prepared to deny ; appoint a Teller of the Exchequer, and to give him but nothing could justify the Legislature if they in- certain fees of office; he should admit, too, that the termeddled with the grantee Pi the disposal of the Exchequer existed before the Norman Conquest.- - Offices, or with the amount of the money derived The power to grant or to withhold money, however, from them. The people might hideed feel htiri that had been assefted long since by ti n at House; and that those large emoluments should accrue almost for the being the case, was the Crown to tell them, that be performance of no (oa' ; hut Parliament wisely ab. sides the necessary supplies, they must raise another stained from ever interfering with them, and by so certain sum to an Officer, whom the Crown had cre-_' doing they sanctioned the propriety of the office, and ated, foe the purposes of emolumeut ? It was also in evinced a determination not to derange the ancient the power of Parliament to say, whether, besides system of private property. For these reasons it ap- . the sum for the public exigencies, they would also peered to him, that however large the emoluments of ' raise a farther sum to be paid to any such Officer ? these offices might be, and however iiiconvenient they Ile was confident, if the Rouse want into the Com might appear in the contemplation of the people, rnittee, it would be seen that they had on former oc still it was safer, wiser, and more economical to casions regulated thbse offices both with and without permit,them to remain unmolested than consent to in- the concurrence of the Tellers themselves. As to Majority 19 troduce a principle of which no man could perceive the fund for the liquidation of the national debt, and ' The original Resolution of Mr. CRELVEY _ the limits. It was very possible that what lie - had . the other enormous sum raised for war taxes, how afterwards negatived without a division. said was not language of a very popular nature, and ' could it be contended that ought to be paid, as ; PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. calculated to please the frugal part of mankind . ; yeti a matter o f l ight, to any *lacer through whose hands When strangers were again admitted, we found of he ' , meld say, that no apprehensipns of unpopularity ! they chanced to pass. If, when Mr. Pitt first thought his leg s should over prevent hint from boldly avowing those of raising the tan! for carryi ng on th e war w i t hi n • The Marquis of TAVISTOCK, who had risen i sentiments which, lie believed, would be ultimately the year, any person had thought of proposing that purstfance of notice, to move f or l eave to b r i ng in : beneficial to the people. s the sum so raised should be exempted from the pay- Bill which would have the effect of amending th e Mr. BRAND believed that the sentiments to , meat of these`Exclvequee f e e s , h e was conv i nce d no state of the Representation of the People in Perlis, which he had just been listening, were Nes/tents_ owe 'wad have obis*. to it. And, if the principle veld. His Lordship was makiog some remarks up. neous productions of the Hon. Gentleman's heart, could be interfered with at all, so far from befog i .on the augmented Influence of tie Crown, deviati ng aid he believed that no hopes of popularity would Principle which was inviolable, he submitted it must that by means of it th e S overe i gn was ena b led to re-. ever be able to sefer're that Hon. Gentleman from the be held to be no principle at' all. _lt was for'the tale in his service Ministers whose conduct had hie performance of what he deemed his du y • but, how- House, then, to say what was to be done : and , approbation though their measu r es w ere un i versally ever highly he esteemed the motives of his conliact, though he (Mr. Whitbread) was prepared to go the condemned by the people, who loudly called for still, for his own part, he felt strongly inclined to: whole length of the Resolutions, yet if the Amend- ! their exclusion from power.—[Hear, hear !]--i t differ from him, and to favour the motion. He per- , meet was preferred, h e h a d no o bj ec ti on t o agree would not be denied, he apprehended, that the votes fectly agreed with the legality of the grant and with to it. He was convinced there was not a subj ec t in of Parliament were som e ti mes i n di rec t oppos i t i onts the right of possession in the pla ce s, and p osse ss e d the realm who would not lament if those Officers the sentiments of the nation at large; and he la. the same regard as had already been manifested to- were above the controul of the House. Let the ser- sieved that it would be equally readily admitted that wards private property. But if instances appeared vices of the late Earl Camden, o r o f M r . G eorge some reform was necessar y. H e did not mean to on the Journals of the House, that Parliament had Grenville, be as meritorious as they could be ima- i say, thatit wouldbe proper, in the first instance, to caused certain issues to be liable to a lesser proper- gined, he could not help being persuaded that th e y adopt one generator violent measure to attempt m tion of fees than what were customary, he should,l would be amply rewarded, even by the amount of immediate Reform • on the contrary, he thought th e from that precedent of limitation, be inclined to . emolument drawn by the late fi rst Lord of the Ad. only wise and prudent mode would be to proceed, think that the fees of those offices ought to be lessened ! miralty (Mr. Yorke), as Teller of Exchequer. He step by step, until at length the object so much de. as much as might appear reasonable and judicious.— , thought there could be_no doubt, that Parliament, if sired was attained, a full, fair, and adequate Re. The present unhappy circumstances under which the it chose, might order that the sums to be raised in presentation of the People in Parliament. —Tear, kingdom laboured, were incitements strong enougle taxes for the present year should pass, through the hear!]—The accomplishment of the design would to sanction a retrenchment of the fees of office, espe- Exchequer, without paying any fees whatever. be much more probable, if the House advanced with cially where they appeared to rise to a higher 1 Mr. HORNER was desirous of stating his reasons caution, than if it at once resolved to overthrow exist. amount than ever could have been contemplated at for the opinion he entertained on this subject.— .ing and long established rights. The purpose he had the creation of the offices. Anxious, therefore, that Nothing, he conceived, could be so clear as this, that •in vietv by the Bill he should afterwards submit to the first resolution should be carried, he e pro- in all regulations for economical purposes, vested the House, was to limit to a certain extent the ex. pose, as an Amendment upon the second, " That rights must be sacredly protected. If there was even pences of County Elections. [hear, hear!] In the a Committee be appointed to examine the Journals a solitary precedent, as had been alleged, in the yea; first place he should' endeavour to prevent the great Of the douse, for the purpose of ascertaining howl 1740, in which a contrary line of proceeding had inconvenience to which freeholders were subject in far any limitation had taken place by direction of prevailed, still he . should have helcrthat to be a bad travelling to the town where the election was to take Parliament." 1 precedent, and one which ought not to lie followed. I place, and in the next place to put an end to the cot. Lord A. HAMILTON was far from disputing the principles laid down by two Right Honourable Gentlemen (the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Ponsonby), as to the propriety of affording every sanction and support of private property.— Even the doctrine laid down by his Right Hon. Friend (Ponsonby), the offices were to b , ccit , ll-lered as in the nature of estates, he did not feel i.:Mself called on to dispute. That the offices in question, however, were to be put on a footing with offices in the• Church, he was not so thoroughly convinced.— In the Church there were great and important duties to perform. The Church had grown with our growth, and strengthened with our strength; where as the offices in question. had only grown and in creased with the burdens and distressef of the country, by which they were fed and nourished, and through which alone they now produced such (marmot's emo luments, as to have suggested to his lion. Friend the No man could deny the right of the House to regu late, reform, and even abolish offices ; but still that must be done subject to regulations. Ile was pre parod to go as far in regulations which had economy for their object as any man ; but in dbiug so, the rights of those having vested interests in such offices were to be kept sacred. The property of the State was not to be protected at the expe. , ce of itritate proper. ty. All property was the creature of the law, and, equally depended on it for protection. If this prin ciple were once broken through by the House, temp tation would grow upon them, and there would be no end to it. Mr. BANKER fully agreed in the propriety of preserving inviolate the private rights of parties.-- Let not the House, however, in an over consideration for private interests, forget that they had also the public interest to look after. He was of opinion that the emoluments of the offices in question had increas rupt practice of giving money to voters under the pretence of defraying the charges they had incurred In coming to poll. He should suggest that the sle,. tors should be allowed to give in their votes in the hundred in which they resided, and that one day be uppointed for renewing suffrages in oath hundred.— lie should add to this the establishment of a Special County Court for the nomination of candidates.— His Lordship then moved for leave to bring in a Hill " for regularting the election of Knights of the •Shire to serve in Parliament." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he did not rise to oppose in its first stage, a measure which had in view so desirable an object as the limitation of the eipences . of County Elections. He wished it, however, to be distinctly understood, that he was giving no pledge of approbation to any of the provisions the Noble Lord might deem it ex pedient to introduce. He begged also explicitly to . „ propriety of the present motion. According to the ed infinitely bey was reasonable. He thought beyond what t doctrines laid down by his Right lion. Friend, `chat- E if the House, as the guardians of the Public Purse, ever might at any time be the amount of the emolu- ; saw a mode of paying out the public money equally ments of these o ffi ces, the House could rot interfere to Lsecure with that now resorted to, of paying it in the regulate or restrain them. 14 by the lapse of time, ! first place into the Exchequer, there could be no supposing Lord Camden to live thirty or forty years , doubt that they might do so. The emoluments of longer, and supposing the amount of the offices to those offices, as already said, were excessive, and if increase in the same proportion as they had hitherto i the House chose to apples cure, he thought they had done, still it would be equally incompetent for the ! the power of doing so without giving to any human House to interfere then as now. If the Iloese could ; being a right to complain. He did not wish this, not now interfere, the amount to which the fees of ; however, to be done by compulsion, but by an agree office might increase ; ' however exorbitant, could ! ment between the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for make no difference. If instead of thirty thousand the public, on the one hand, and these Tellers of the pounds a year which these Tellerships now produced, techeqoer on the other. they should mount up to 130,0001. still, on-the I Mr. BATHURST rose amidst loud cries of Ques: principles on which his Right Hon. Friend argued i don! He admitted that the fees received by the Tel the question, the House had no right to interfe r e ! ! lers of'the Exchequer were now much larger than at This was a doctrine to which as a guardian of the ' the time of the creation of the o ffi ces, but this could Public Purse, he could not suffer himself to agree. ' not be urged as any Sufficient reason for invading Wheri the two Noble Lords alluded to were ap- private property. As well might it be said that the pointed to those offices, they yielded about seven ' Chancellor should be deprived of the large emolu thousand pounds a year each,.aud now they produced, ' ments arising from bankruptcies, because in modern to each of the Noble Lords, about 30,0001. a-year. times they had been so greatly augmented. If the No, no ! only about 23,0001. or 2.5,0001. from the attempt were to frighteji the Noble Lords into a ces inisterial Beeches.] His Lordship rejoiced to sion, some ground at least ought to be stated on which ~ ar the Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite ob- the threat was to be founded; above all, he censured e ject to this, because, if they admitted that the any attack by a side wind. amount had any thing to do with the question, then , Mr. WILBERFORCE wished that before the 1 they admitted the force of his argument, and con- House came to any decision ; that all the facts con ceded that if the emolument did exceed what was res. nected with the two Tellerships of the Exchequer ! sonable •, if, for instance, they s h ou ld amoun t t o sh o uld be brought before it. He was desirous of 60,0001. a year, then it would be fit for the House knowing whether these offices were in reality to be to interfere. For his own part, he would never deemed private property, or whether they were held consent to give his vote that the House Could pot under any qualification or condition ? interfere to the effect of regulating the amount' of Mr. TIERNUY felt it necessary to state distinct the emoluments arising to any public officer. The ly his *Onion upon this question, that he might S us- i only question, he conceived, was, whether the tale his share of the unpopularity which would at- House could o r cotlld not interfere.? and if called to tech to a complete concurrence with his Right Hon. give his vote on this subject, he 'rust give it in, be- Friend (Mr. Ponsonby). He objected to the time half of the public.. ' when this subject was introduced, because the House' Mr. LYTTIRTON said, h e s h ou ld vo t e f pr h a d n ow bef or e it a Sinecure Bill, which would, in ! the amendment of Isis Houourable Friend .(Mr. all probability, be passed here, but thrown out else- Brand). ' where, and he was unwilling that any additional ar- Mr. IL xipaiOrtoN anti : Mr. VA NSITTARIr gamma should be afforded for such a vote, because. both said a few words on the s u bj ec t o f th e Sinki ng it would be contended, and with great fairness, that 1 Fund for Payment of the National Debt, whether the Commons hiving passed a Bill conditiostally ':Exchequer Fees were exigible on theamount of It • against Sinecures, emboldened by their success , but their obs erva ti ons were no t distinctly understoo d were now proceeding a step farther, and were even in the gallery. attempting - to invade and destroy a vest ed interest, Mr. wurßßtie shortly was sorry to do, entirely from his Right Hon ' ourable cognized sentiments on the present question, differing , se he Anus mast be conteroplatedoince they were so re. insisted was the situation in which these Friend near him m (.-- . 1 . • Ponsoub )-. I . . the ' • h cou ld not concur is the motion was, that the y , no. on prin. wh y - e by.tbe laws of England! Another reason , them. His Right H oe . ?demi talked . eiPios laid G own btc him, but in the application of. Noble Pereonage; now oo,capying those places, were of - • . the legal far advanced iu life • r keepopplee4eci thqt if the declare, that in not opposing the introduction of this Bill, he was not admitting that either that or any other measure was necessary to diminish what was termed the overgrown infldence of the Crown, by means of which the Noble Lord had asserted that the Sovereign had it in his power to continue any Administration, however impotent or obnoxious to the country. He (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) was convinced that the assertion was not well founded ; in the present state of the Constitution it was not in the power of the Crown to retain in its service any Administration that, in the judgment of the people, was unworthy of, or inadequate to the situations they occupied.—[Hear, hear !]—The So vereign, however, had authority sufficient to con tinue his confidence to those individuals who, Ani -1 Ws for the well-being of the Empire, had conducted its affairs with as able a judgment, and as firm a hand, as any of their rivals.—[Loud cheer:l- 1 f the Noble Lord, or any other Member, should think it prudent to throw out any challenge upon this grouud, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should I be always beady to meet and to maim it, for he coo celved tieViereark to have been made by the Noble Mover with reference to the present Administration. --.{/tear, hear!' If the contrast were pissed upon 'trim, he would venture to assert, that the other side of the House could not adduce a single instance from the transactions of the last Administration, which, either in point of vigour, of wisdom, or of success, could for a moment be put in comparison with the ex• ertions and achievements of the present.—[/Isar, hear ! and laughing. Mr. BRANI) enquired whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer would allow that the Bill should be printed and circulated before he gavehis decied oppo sition to it, in case be should feel it right to resist it? The i;IIA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied in the affirmative.—He meant to have ex pressed it in the remarks he had made. Sir T. TURTON obtained leave to bring in tn Bills for the•por r pose of amending the Bill regulat lug the Profits of Publicans, as also that concerning Tolls. Mr. BENNETT rose to move that there be laid before the House a Copy of the Appoiatmentof the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, together with a Return of the Emoluments of that Office for the last Ten. Years. Ile was i n to bring forward this motion from an understanding that these profits were very large, amounting in the course of the last year to 33641. 189.-24.- He had been likewise informed, thwt they arose, in'sorhe , measure, from the sale of offices ; And in-everx point of view seemutl to call for the regulation of the House. . w ~M i t - ~'~ ~~ t' ~ ~ 7j it ( T ~1 ~~ k