The Statesman. — London, England, 1812-02-08 00:00:00

~1 i , ti • , :J • • r. 4 1 • • . " was -not AOOO,OOOl.- batik/ally 3,a)4401 uch were the diminishing itibdttetof the country to car ry on the wild and extravagant projects In'whlch we were embarked. There were. besides observations, - which arose out of the manner.of maktfig by the account of the Consolidated - Fund-3(30,00P. for, • . instance, was taken credit for lon- . atebtint of its, terest for _lrtlands-L-Ilad itelsed Moen in i situa:; lion not only to pay het Own expences, bqt• - elso' to leave a surplus •of revenue, It might here been fair, as a mere Consolidated Fetid account, tel place the item jn that way; but. when it wasiteown that' - Ireland had Unfortunately been unable .to goy her own eareets, and that this parted' the Ems pire had been caned upon to defray •a•preportion of them, it surely-was Moit erroneous so to place this item, when it ought undouStedly to have been placed ,tin the contdryside. It was in truth of most essential importaline,:that Allis subject of the finances of the country should be taken into most serious considera lion. _ Not only the great increase of .our Funded •Rebt; bet still Mario( the Unfunded Debt, coinbin `ed with -the diminishing resources of the country, focused the strongest grounds for apprehension.:- If the state of our finances were examined with that at. tendon and consideration which the salijecemott seriously demanded, he feared it Mould be found. that we were Little able even to fulfil those obli gations wbfelfthe true interests of the countryim posed, mach invite carry on those desperate and ex travagant projects in which we were so unhappily embarked: • • ' * The FArt' of lIARILOWAY contended that Ms Noble Friend had taken, au erroneous.view of the subject. The produce of the year ending the sth of January; 1812, was a mere trifle short of that of the yeeronding the sth of January, 1810,.but because it was not so great as that of the year ending the sth of January, 1811, the produce of which was the most esiormoasof. any year known before, his No ble Friend had contended that the resources of the .country were dimirishiog,and that there was ground for alarm. lie, on the contrary, was decidedly of opinion, not only that there was no ground for Mara, but Wit the finances of the country were in fi nourishing and prosperous state. That the defi cit in the year ending the-sth of January, 1812, as compared with that ending the sth of January, JBl 1, amounted to .so much, was easily account- I od for. In preceding years the interest of the' loans had been provided for, by appropriating taxes elsonly in their full collection ; _but Wit year new taxes had , been imposed to defray the interest of the loan, which • could not he brought into a state' of fullCullection by the sth. of January, in I The present year, and which would thus account for several hundred thousand pounds of the corn perative deficiency. There was, however, no falling .oti in-the revenue, with the exception of the Cus toms, a deficiencyln which was of course_ to be ex pected ; but the increased produce of the taxes in, general consumption, proved the general afiluence. .As to the interest from Ireland, it was taking credit for to meet the.charge on the other side. With re spect to the debt, he contended that uo war could be adduced, in which so little unredeeMedilebt had been incurred. From 1803 to 1811, the amount of the unredeemed debt incurred did not exceed seventy millions, whilst the•Sinking.Fund had increased six millions, being now more than double its amount in 1601 From all these circumstances, lie contended not only' that there was no ground whatever for alarm, but that the fitiauces of the country were in a prospe"rous and flourishing state. • fin I:i I , f LAC, D II)A LE denied the inference Alms n by the ;noble . Earl; and .maintained; that if the finances of the country were, thoroughly examin ed, it wo-lil be found, he did not mean to say that wn should be unable to resist a foreign foe, but that It would be impracticable to carry on these wild pro jects in which we were engaged. Would the Noble F.arl affirm, that if the Bank were to withdraw 6,C00,0001; from circulation, that we could go on ? 'Would not, in that case, the Exchequer Bills fall to 6 0r,6 per cent. discount, and be returned upon the Government ? who would thus receive only their own paper, in payment of taxes, instead of money. As to what had been stated by the Noble Earl, that only 70,000,00c1. of unredeemed debt had been incurred, it . would he found, probably, that that was owing to the- provident cares of others, in some of the years of the-war ;. and that if the bitter . years ,of the wad ePe looked into, the expenditure would not. re &mid much to the credit of the Noble Lords oppo. site. The Noble Earl, however, had said nothing About the unfunded debt. Ile was satisfied that the %hole system of the finance of the country must very loon widergo a Most sniiiute recision, and become the subject of most serious consicremtiOn. •THE .ROYAT. HOI.IBEHOLD. The Earl a LIVERPOOL moved tbe the I) ,Y rending of the Mill - Sotto& held Bill, evil : observed, that he Would ndw take the' opportunity Of explaining the subject With reference to the three Bills now on the table, all forming part of the same Arrangement (the Royal Household Bill, the .Household Offices Bill, and the Regency Ex. peaces His Lordship' than adverted to what had pissed hi the last Session of Parliament, when e t!.e 114;ency was under'consideration, and observed, 'that whatever opinions - might be. entertained of the Improbability of the King's recovery, they must neverrhells legislate upon the possibility of his re entering, so as to resume the exercise of the Royal A"th"ritY% His Lordship then expinined the object of the Bills, to appropriate 100,0001. for a House hold ror the King, and to the , support of Lis dignity and personal comfort ' • together with 60,0001. the amiept of the King's Privy Purse, and 10,0001. to the Queen,to meet incidental expences, making to gether i.n,oopt. To meet this charge, the Prince 'of Wales hod consented to give up to the Civil List free) {pis Exchequer Income .50,0001. and 70,0001. . was proposed to be voted by Parliament, making 120,0001, leaving a deficiency .in the Civil List, as transferred to the Prince Regent, of 50,0001. with, however, a consirlerable difference of expellee, as his Majesty's expenditure had of coarse been consider ehly cncreased by' the lrrgeness of his family. The Noble Earl concluded b,y.exptessial his regret that the question respriiingthe bfeeesse of the expendir tuic of the Civil List had hot on former oceasioni been fairly met, instead of resorting to the VODAIk of tutiatig gnol the deficiency dirt of other ilAtlYd is he was that I hie been tlto.llVotail :. ids I! THE 'err., AN. ~~.. ::~ ., a. rte. ittcheque;himselfllt wai, thing, connected w ith , bimlitn.hoe:jCerhaly of the Crown, si e uce on ll t o li r o o p f re tl r i o e gatives , • . 'l;v:OtightfOrwaril, •It mast have been evident that the ‘ . tual tratare, and not likevatly increase or the expenditure was unavoidable> and i the fluctuation df manne r s or habits , the law ought' wholly erroneous to assert that the measureinfring t i . object was to preserve its interests, and i r p it re v ve 9 n rY t a lavish and unnecessary expendittue of • that it wad no' more than must have been felt by !to be perpetual also. The allowing I" . a s d vesting e in g i t t h e os ve e rSi o o iii g c 7 s o i u n l w ould h h e a h v ea hands of f ff i e n e c t o o rn f pe fr t eAt t te p n e ti r y : i every person from his own private expenditure, could not be avoided. 0 though'its L ar d . pß,&N a Ktf a LE..obsesved, that•the Hilt. woe poNS, i n child ren , an d i n • persons, who 1 revenue. Grantin g, places in reversion Kor %. ei T h o a ch a - ow no t e nprily iyprove, although 1 competent to discharge the dutif's of the .Offices I was a most improvident mod e o f rewardin ht watpeifectli asiare of the •difficulty attending a :at the period*. of the grant,. might be - incompetent '.even meritorious services, because flue inmedi at g tack in makidg a 'Prevgion for a case so new and ! whew they s h ou ld succee d to t h e m. The consis advantage was extremely small, and the il a distinct from any former situation o f thi ng s. He i ( peace wa s , th a t th ese offices would it last timate . p ro sp ec t o f a larger profit • extrernoi r 'agreed with' the Noble - Secretary oeState, that it . come to be considered as sinecures; -- that other uncertain. It was doing injustice bogs to the C r i was an essential object for their !lordships to have i i i i persons wou ld b e no mi nate d to th e m. who were a rid to.t h e P eople, to. permit the practice loner f ,', view, that the arrangement to be formed was not tit t o di sc h arge the duties. li e did . not mean Continise.. He concluded by expressing his astonish. in its nature necessarily permanent, and that as their : to h o ld ou t t h at t hi s Bin wo uld hive - the effect 'Mint that do Chancellor of the Exchequer, af tej hopes had been hitherto unhappily disappointed, so of operating any great saving io the . national expen- maintaining that the provisions were of little' fs. t h e i r f ears might be agreeably undeceived. Ilis first ! diture; brit whatever operated as a reduction of any portauce, and gaustrriug a ll pertina c ity i n oppos i quu, 1 objection to the plan now submitted was, that it was : useless expenditure , and guarded against t h e careless - should 't down by expressing his det erm i nat i on to i n t r i ca te, involved, and obscure, whereas, in his opi- ness of the Crown, was certainly of importance.- As ido what hi had the moment before c o n d emne d . nion, it should not lie on such an occasion, it ought not !to what had been stated respecting the encroachment Mr. WHITBREAD remarked, that the only tiro ' merely to be clear and intelligible, but so clear and on the Prerogative, be contended that there was tin perient `who tad spoken against the Bill were two i n t e lligible that every man in the kingdom should ' material encroachment on the prerogative. 'lt e' , 3lllkr l . very principal reversioners. The H o n oura bl e ti e:L. uuderstßnd it. lie was not prepared to argue the in fact, put the Crown into a state of greater strength tleman wlio first opposed the motion had noticed question of the gill on the principle of the suffici- ' than if these Offices in Reversion were allowed to. eomethiog that fell from him (Mr. . Whitbread) four envy or excess of the particular sums appropriated continue. He contended, that though the ; saving in T ears age, which was, that ho was a reversioner, to different purpiases. All their Lordships undoubt- itself was not great, yet the principle of economy in i flu. Hon. Gent. complain:A that this asse r ti on , ~ h ad edly felt-the necessity of supporting now, as well . itself was of great importance.—[llearn s l been thrown at his head."—lt was true, that he had i is at any former tlme, the dignity and state better'. ! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER caughttt in his mouth, and it seemed had been. chew. the .- it the F tions of Royalty, and , - ;hed tr- k, that the Honourable Mover of this i, it r , r situ- FA 1, -i t ? j Thr in to the exercise ot a. to the person in whatever situation, or labouring under whatever calamity, who continued to wenr:the Crown. They all felt that it was not merely for a sick person, but a lick King, for w:.om vision was to be made.----He had often la mented . that in all the arrangements of the Civil List, two objects should have been combined so obviously dissimilar as the provision for the civil go vernment of the country, and the expenditure for the Royal Household. This was not the proper oppor tunity for entering into such a consideration, but he did think it, in due time, a subject highly worthy of their Lordships' attention. An extreme case might, indeed, occur, which would render it expedient to make some alteration with reference to this arrange ment, but except in such an extreme case, it was uh questionably th , duty of the Legislature to respect the contract which had been entered into between tie country and his Majesty, when he was competent to give or to withhold bis assent. Upon the subject. of the excesses incidental to the Civil List, Lord Gres , vale stated, that when in office, he had conceived it to be the most regular and expedient course to Ted these excesses with any available fund in the uncon trollied possession of the Crown, rather than to ap ply for Parliamentary aid. His Lordship, after stating his acquiescence in the necessity of maki•tg adequate provision, as well for the dignity still due to his Majesty's situation, as for that of the Prince Regent, concluded by enquiring of the Noble Lord (Liverpool) what was proposed to be The mode of ac count between the Treasury and the .otlicers of his Majesty's Household ? Lord !Lk:MOWRY made a few observations on the groupds of the proposed arrangement. A conversation then took place between Lords Grenville and Lirerpool as to the kgal accountability of the King's Lords steward and Chamberlain to the Lord Treasurer, after which the Bill was read a.third time, aid the House adjourned. wisp. .o remark, Bill (Mr. Bankes) had at length admitted, that it would not have anreffect in reducing the public ex penditure; and that whatever might be its policy, it was not on the ground of being, in the tlightest gree, calculate!' to save, the public money,, or to ree ) litre the people from their 'burdens, •that he recom.: mended it to the House. Both parties now under stood one another. The object, that the Bill had in view was comparatively of little magnitude, but i whenever, on former occasions, it had been pressed forward by Members with a strong feeling of its importance, he had never felt any disposition to oppose its progress ; but although he had not deemed it worth while on former occasions to resist it, circum stances, it would be admitted, might since have occur red, which might render it necessary for him to express his dissent from the measure. If, in the first place, the Resolution of the House had been to abolish nearly all offices that could be granted in reversion, the mainte nance of the few, that it might be thought right to continue, would scarcely be deemed a matter of suf- ficient consequence to induce any opposition to the general plan ; but if, in the second place, the House and the country should be of opinion, that the great mass should remain for the reward of meritorious ser vices, and only a few be abolished, then it would not be considered advisable to support a measure so ex tremely limited in its operation. He certainly, on the general principle, felt no greater disposition now to oppose the Bill than he had done on foymer oc casious ; but finding by the experience of the last and preceding years, that it was likely to meet with serious resistance elsewhere, and thinking that the provisions themselves were of little .ino meat, he did not think that there was any nieces.; sity for raising a topic.of disagreement which might . ' be attended,with the greater evils than those *ilia the Bill proposed to remedy. If indeed it could be I shewn that great constitutional injury would result i from the rejection, it doubtless would be expedient to carry it through the House. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes) had observed, that any proceedings which-had i occurred, or any pertinacity which had beet. . ! town formerly to this measure in another place, ought not to be adverted to by this House in contemplating the subject, but surely he would admit that it would be right in the first instance to examine on which side this pertinacity had been shewn, whether by the sup porters or by the opponents of the • Bill, and then another question would arise, from whose pertinacity most injury was likely to arise. lie (Mr. Pert eval) conceived that this measure, by erroneous opinion within, and by popular clamour without the House, as well as by other means, had been swelled to a mag nitude which by no means belonged to it : no such Important results could be derived from it, as many seemed anxious to suppose. Separated as it now was from such ideas, by the candid admissions of his Hon. Friend, who acknowledged that the effect would be rather to increase than to diminish t1;•3 Influence of the Crown, and that as a measure of economy it would effect nothing, at least some of the main grounds on which this erroneous opinion and popu lar clamour rested, were removed. Stripped of these two principal advantages, the naked Bill must be acknowledged to be so insignificant in 'every point of view, that it was in reality not n orti supporting. He trusted, notwithstanding he had fallen in with the strong, sentiments expressed is favour of the Bill on fofmer occasions, that the House would do him the justice to believe that he now re sisted it from a sincere wish to preserve cordiality between the two branches of the Legislature. lie Owens)* opposed the second reading. Mr.' BANKES explained, that inasmuch as the Bill recommended the abolition of certain offices, it was to be considered in some degree as a measure of economy." The TOANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER lidded, that pending any measures respecting the abolition or reform of existing offices, he had never offered any'opposition, nor would he, while he had the honour to hold the office he now filled, give any interruption to such a proceeding. Lord A. HAMILTON pointed out certain offices, the abolition of which was proposed, and which made the present a measure of public .economy. The present situation of the country rendered it necessary that not a farthing should be uselessly expended. Sir S. ROMILLY wa.s much surprised at the con clusion to whirl) the Chancellor of the Exchequer had come, since from every thing he had said he had expected a vvy different determination. He denied, 'that . the present Bill, which had several times received the sanction of the "house, was of slight .im portance; nor was it more correct to state, that it bad been previously carried by popular clamodr. It was true that the public had fornied a very strong opinion of the necessity of the Bill ; and the coun try would learn with mech surprise and disappoint meats that the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad this ie rn tsh e , i t. s he u er r e e i fu t o t t o lu : ts r eet p la r fi e o,4 . l j p: B 6 .i t t et b it . l t e h b v e tt e d p i e a , l; . v ' i ce a e ; , •s ai L btie d s ti l l a: e i f g n tt ' v t o i : e u i t r it t e , :t i e v c . any co:.stitutioual object like the present, it was un. doUbtedly the most s.nztul policy to attain the object so much desired. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Perceval), however, thought otherwise, and maintained' that the measure was of little or no porlance, although popular clamour had swelled it into magnitude, and his only reason for now resisting it was, his opinion, as opposed to that of the whole cbuntry—that it was too insignificant to deserve at. tention. Had he, or his colleagues, consulted their interests or their duty, they would never have thrown • cold water upon it. • :vas assumed too (which the r House would not grant), that it was net a measure of economy. Irmo rather singular that this dor . trine should be supported by a person who holds the reversion of one of the greatest places in the gift of the Crown. If it wants regulation, an answer was immediately returned, that it could not Wallowed. Why ? Because the Chancellor of the Exchequer pos sessed the reversion, and if it were regulated, era [tuny being the object, it would dOubtless be abolish. ed. • Did the Right Hots. Gentleman mean to sas, that he, sitting in his place in that House, was not a practical contradiction of his own assertion? Another proo(might be found in the odious appointment of Col. 1 11‘Mahon to the office of Paymaster of •doe s' Pensions, the abolition of which had been re. .Commended thirty years ago, and yet there, too, no regulation was to be allowed—because it was graved Lin reversion. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer .had not the expectancy of Lord Ardetes place,.it might he investigated—a:Complete exemplification of ;'what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had denied. It was . a4'mitted on all hands, that these grants hi re version wet a sort of forestalling of the prerogative Vof the Crow tr o (Near, hear !1 and no man who osiihed them to be ebolished, liftd any desire to dim'. ash the-prerogative ; the object Was to prevent de. signtag Ministers from granting festoon to their own I Infants. Plear,Accull He :. usted, uotwithstand, log the specious arguments employed, that the House of Commons. u the Represteittalves of the People, • would pass r. Bill, from which their Constituents expected, and would d, rive such important benefits. He cop:a anticipate no disagreement between the two branchos the Legislature upon a subject where the (1 , •• • ••• of both was so obvious ; and under thee! eircupseta , .. a he felt confident that the Lords would cordially join in a measure, which it was true the Chancellor of the Excheqtter said is not important to be done, which the Country exclaims is important to be done, and tvhich the Ilonse declares it is important, to do. Mr. D. GIDDY supported the Bill shanty. Ile insisted that the Hill had for object an important saving of the public money, and the out-rooting of a great defect which had crept into the fabric of the Constitution.—Whenever the sulject of the rever sion of plaees,was mentioned, the existence of the practice excited the greiteet disapprobation. Colonel BASTARD contended, that there were 'two points of . economy to be considered-1, econo my of public expenditure; 2, economy of pubiic opinion. If regard were had to the latter, thepee pie would cheerfully pay those taxes, of the exaction of which they now complained, especially when they knew that the money, of which their families were -deprived, was not misapplied . Sir JOHN SEI3RIG iiT pointed out the extreme inconsistency of rejecting a Bill upon such flimsy grounds as those urged, which had before twice re ceived the unanteurns absetrortbi Mr. ELLIOT 'observed,' that granting offices in reversion was extremly disadvantageous to the Crown, since it was in truth mortgaging its inte rests: there were many examples to prove that the exercise of this power had been most injurious both to King and People. Mr. PONSONBY—" Although I have often ex pressed my sentiments upon this question, I cann.t refrain from. troubling the House with a very few words. I cannot at p.ll egree that this is a matter of little importance, on the contrary, it appears to Me to . he of very considerable magnitude, oven iu au economical point of ig'W j because nothing can be more unfit than that iZ should be in the power of -tiey Minister, when it is - conienient to him to call to his - own 'aid, that money which ought only to be the • resource of the Crown, arid to apply it to his .own purposes, so as to carry, by forte of influence, a mea 'sdlrdperhaps highly disemeable, or even injurious, te the nation. The Conduct pursued br the Chan cellor of the Exchequer on the present. occasion, stn ell me as somewhat extraordinary : formerly. he voted for the 'Bill, .because he said it was of little importance: nowise votes agaiest the Bill, Waite, he says, it is of little ittaportauce. The same reason of its' being of little importance :serves his purpose equally well for or against the measure, as occasicia Jetty requiris—[flear,,heci,s ft is not, however, of 'such light ceniseqnence as at relatis to the proceed. ings of the House, in ofhich it has been so repeatedll and unanimously adopted' tab, conformity to the cOition' of the country, scarcely less .unauitnoas. — Now, however, for tee first time, ii, was couteuded r night thrown out what he had before strenuously supported : for the Reversion Bill was suggested by the Finance Committee, whose appointment bad beet►-reeeaneewded itfthe beginning of the &teen of :1107,, and whose labours had bees approved at its tera*tion t inks. *sob fron.tht Tbrone, writua • HOUSE OF COMMONS. Lord OSSULSTON presented a Petition for leave to bring in a Bill for the Erection of a New Theatre for the Cities of Loa don and Westmliciter. Referred to a Committer. The SPEAK ER stated that tbeßisyalA7s;atisad been gives by Vommission in the other }loose to the Bills for raising Rh - 03"kt and 1.:)00,tY301. on Exchequer Bills, and to the Corn Maination Suspen.ion Bill. 4 'The Lords' Act Amendment Bill went through a Comm Rice. The Report was brought up, and ordered to be takes into con sideration on Friday neat. The East India Company Loan Alteration Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be. read a second time on Monday next. Mr. CALC It AFT moved, that there be laid before the House the Returns of the Regular Army and Militia, racloaive of Fa reign Troops in the Briti3h Pay, from the IStli June (we believe) to ‘lte '23th Dec. 1811; a Return of the Recruits raised by the ordinary mode of Recruiting for the Regular Arm y; and i Return of the Desertions and Casualties in the Re tar Army fur the same period,—Ordered. Mr. EDEN postponed the motion of whirh notice wee gives for this day, for an Enquiry into the Expe n dit u v e o f the Civil List, till Monday next. REVERSION BILL. Mr. BANKES moved . the second reading of the Bill for prevention of Granting Offices in Reversion. Mr. WTI. DUNDAS said he had four years ago had the misfortune of standing alone in his opposi tion to a Bill similar to the present. This Bill was said to-be a renewal of a Bill which expired on the. Ist of February ; but it was in fact a Bill of a very different description. It was in fact a Bill which was holding out a hope to the public of a reduction of the expenditure of the country, which would only end in disappointment. He could not but admire those persons who were sanguine enough to imagine that any reduction of this expenditure could be effect ed by the abolition of ar few Officestn<itswerettno.--, lie contended that the Prerogrtive of the Crow was not too expensive, and that it war part of the, rights of the people. Mr. 13ANKES moved that the Resoltition or the 'Hon - se, in complianCe with which this Bill had'been originally brought in, should be read by the Clerk ; and the Resolution being read, he stated, that the introduction of, this Bill was not in the least connect ed with any pending enquiry. He then proceeded to state the origin and progress of the Bill, which was brought in first during the last Parliame;nt, and afterwards in 1807, but which was thrown'ont in the House of Lords. It was a favourite of the Hearse, but they were obliged to submit to circum. stances, and not being able to carry it through as a perpetual measure, they were ender the necessity of making it a temporary measure. In this, however, they by no means abandoned the intention of making it permanent. Why was it to be assumed, because their vietts were onee or twice opposed by another branch of the Legislature, that this opposition was still to continue? Why was it to be supposed, that that branch was incapable of. clinging . their,ispipion any more than the House of Commons ? Probably they might at last come to think that their oppotition to this Bill was founded in prejudices. Bnt`euppos., ing the other Hope to be still bllstile t o this um, where waggle inconvenience, he Would uk, ha pinn ing It in its,. present form at this time? It woe yet early ia t floosie's, ea 4 they had yet time to ri,ott 'to the woos: 4 aNkiiire l if the perpiotalmeasers should-611, nolo was . no 4iabt, that as the evil _prppeeed te.bqackedled by . this mks or per