The Statesman. — London, England, 1820-07-15 00:00:00

( ' 1 ‘ t- ) i . I t . i 1 I r 1 1 4 1 . 1 , f I ) ; 1 1 I I 11 i: 1 1 , , , ... 1 1 1 ... . , l I ) s , • • . t . t . I 1 i . 1 . ; . I i i. 11 I . ... . 1 A t l' . ' -•.,,* :..• 1 . . . ... 1 .. I • I 1 . i • 1.. v k I , . 1 themselves to those landmarks„which, by the mom me:lllation of those very advisers, had been originally bdttdoned. Weie their Lordships' pr o ce e dings in consonance with those rights, those regulations, and gn prds, which the wisdom and patriotism of their an .% stars had provided to secure the freedom of the sub ject Bid they resemble any tribunal known to the laws and the Constitution of the country. If, indeed, they could show a stream of door precedent, issuing from the fountain of some constitutional principle, and enriching itself in its coo-se by the deternslnstitms of socceeding authorities—he would ask of their Lord ships to adroit it as the rule of their proceeding. Bat wh-n he saw that amongst the cases which bad been bedught forward as upproschiug to a connection with the present, some few bail been justifiable cases, and these justifiable on their peculiar merits only—when he saw this, was it possible for him to say, that their Lordshif.s were tudraw from such ow a rule to influ ence their present proceedings? All ws'mat writers had united in saying, that Bills of Pains and Penalties were to be introduced only in extreme circuniststicis. Sir W. Blackstone, the industrious and philosophic searcher into our system of 14w—the moment be estate to mention Bills of Pains and Penalties. exclaimed, " 1 speak not of them—they crepes re nate—subject to no laws, and referable to no laws."—(Hear, hear!) —Where was there a digest of the laws upon this branch of proceeding? Where, in this book-making age, was the lawyer that thought proper to impose a toluene npun this subject upon the student, in addition to the immense matter upon which his industry was to be exercised ? And why ? Because such pro ceedings ruse out of circumstances which no inge nuity could foresee, and the repetition of which was wholly out of the range of probability. In short, it would he just as prudent, and as useful, to attempt to pr.•scrihe a path in the Heavens, in which all the ' , meta that were to appear in future time were to confine their course, as to say in what manner, by what principles, and subject to what rules, the proceedings in suck caws were to be conducted. He pressed the Resolutions of his Noble and Learned Friend upon three considerations: Ist. that the ends of justice wonid be best secured by adopting them; that it wonlii furnish the means of conducting the proceedings with the greatest dispatch ; an•l, :Idly, ti..it it embraced the greatest convenience to the tribu nal conducting tier proceeding. As to the first point, he was confident that, if the concession which was now sottgbt for were ►withheld, a great interruption would take place in the procealing, to the ma:tires' prejudice of the defendant's ease—an occurrence which was uniformly reprobated by the Bench. And here Le would beg leave to rensi.l their Lordships, that a lip!sy taking place between the period of the accuse t.,tt and of the defence, may create a prejudice not to the defendant, but to her adversary, particularly in the present state of the puhlie mina; because although the charge• might be made public, and openly dis missed, yet the resolute assertion on the part of her blaJosty's friends, of her capability to overturn all the charges, Ina! be pretty generally believed, and thus a prejudice dangerous to justice might be productd. was at a loss to knew how it would be convenient to have this lint produced, ranee on the back of sumr mouses the names of witnesses were set forth very (re tort:lly. He could not agree with the Noble Lord on the Woolsack in thiaking that the second Resolution of his Noble and Learned Friend was at all injurious, to th” principle of the Art of William. lie wished that a Ilst of the witnesses should be fnrnislied, to re• ther with a statement of the specific charges a_ainst her. This would enable her to proceed with her de fence with regularity ; whereas, if the advantage were withheld, and that she thor to the knowledge of the 4.!. 'Fires and the names of the witnesses only at the time of accusation, it would he in all probability ne cessary for her Majesty to apply for a delay of two or three months, in order to enable her to make out her ddeuce: and he begged to ask their Lordships, would not the situation of her Majesty under such circum s• Ince* be much more contrary be all precedent—to all a , !ilo;y, though a course, hammer *convenient. that R Illlti produce delay—that would leave the care Of her Maje,ty, or that of her adrersarlui, to be prejudiced, and would render more difficult the final conclusion of the proceedings? The Earl of Ltvearoot. was ready to agree with the Noble Marquis, that Bills of Pains and Penalties were ..L•rptions to the general course of proceeding and that they were not to be directed by precedent so much as by the substantial justice of the case itself. He 1124 never said that this was a cue to be guverued by i• ecedent ; at the SAW time be was of opinion, that recedente should be an ingredient in the causes by which their Lordships were to be determined. With rcspect to the statute, reqniring that a fist of witnesses should be furnished to the defendant, he should give L. opinion candidly. Although he saw much incon i..nience arising from the operation of that statute, 'Mitoses he held it to be a matter of doubt whether , advantages which it produced were not more than hdanead by the injuries which attended its opera tions ; yet he had no desire to disturb it. It had been th, law of the land for a lung time, and therefore he would nut disturb it. When the statute 7th , 27, medifyieg the law of treason, and confirming Site . right of the accused to haves. list of witnesses was vapid. it ,was hailed as an act of mercy. anal every one thought It natural to expect that the benefits of it would be executed immediately, But the fact was, Ain it was not to come into operation till after the tmernder's death ; and seventy years after It passed, k was first carried into effect in the case of Lord tileco. 24kardou. A great lawyer, a constitutional man, and •• -o,Bfeat friend to liberty, had given it as hie opinion, Nest 4he statute might serve a very bad purpose; it •gare some advantage ; but this might be outweighed leg ; tae injuries which it effected. and the King WIS C 114144 to the saute benefit as the *ceased. He was • p,opsral to say that more isijytOe was likely, to /ow •feose gieing each a liai ,146 'Arrest many instances theo advantage; it gave ait opportunity pfletting up • taioe &few ; it gave the power of acAin/liy intimi dation and violence ; it in short wayilaid justice In its ,ceassa, and provented,the witnesses from coming into Onus with freedom and command. If the land of power toe to be yarded o 0 on one side. so , was popular cla mour to be averted on time other. The state of the id u.inlstration of justice in this country, he was happy to say, was at great awl singular boast of its inhabit- the Noble Lords opposite pot their case, in tact made I against then,; for if a Hat of witnesses was giveu, it must be a fu:l list, and hire could this be given? The Noble I fords wi.hell for an impeachillent of her Mg jesty--if that took place, would thet ask that a list should be furnished? It could not be done without a commuaie.ation with the other House. Now, supposing the list were famished even, was it not possible that afterwards new charges might be preferred against the defendant, whirl, required new witnesses? And he himself knew a ,-are of impeachment, in which some of the most material charges against the defendant arose out of the examination bad at their Lordship' bar, and not contemplated by the impeachment—fresh witnesses were likewise introduced at the instance of ref their Lordships. Their Lordships would them ' wires bare a right to call other witnesses, besides those ' called by the arcuiing party. After the list of wit nesses w..s given, many circumstances might occur which would enable her 3lajesty's Counsel to produce delay. Indeed, no advantage would arise to the ac eased by this mode now recunimensled; and she might be deceived, and put to great inconvenience by it. lie contended that there would he no injustice on one side or the other ; and therefore he would leave it to their Lordships to decide which was must to be dreaded-- the power un the part of the Crown on one side, or the popular clamour on the other.--(Hear, bear !)-- ' The Illiistritais defendant should have every fair an . liberal means of making Ler defence. I I Lord 110t.i.t7:9 maintained that this was a proceed ing of such a nature, that, in the consideration of it, their Lordships. , mglit u .t to be bound by any prece dents. 't lie Noble Earl opposite had delivered a just enlogium on the administration of justice in this CUM, try. But this eii •onsium, though most true, was ill placed on the present occasion ; for this proceeding was an exceptiou to the general rule of justice, and also to the law of Parliament. The present case was a complete anomaly ; and it was a solecism to say, that in considering it, their Lordships were to be pitted by the principles whi , h belonged to other cases. 't heir Lordships now said to the accnsed—u Your high birth awl rank place you beyond the reach of common tribunals ; and there is no other tribunal before which you Can appear hot this. - Then, upon an application being mole to their Lordships on behalf of her Majesty, fur a part;cular indulgence, they turn round, and say— ' " We would willingly grant you what von ask fur, but we cannot do so because we are tied down by prece dent."—(llear, hear D-I',.t they were at the very same time departing from all rule and precedent. They cis re acting the parts of accusers, jurors, and iudges, and, at the same time, said they were hound down by rule and precedent I An eminent slither, lie believed it was Lola. Bacon, had said, that the rules and forms of law were like the bark and rind of a tree; for that altlioneh they 1 1 did nut form an part of the timber of that tree, they were the ammo through which it received its ntitri- I meat; and tbrytheteeted it from the wind and weather. But here the prate Ong forms of the law, which were so necessary for the due administration of justice, were en tirely taken away. They had before them a strange and. anomalous ease, and the Illustrious Person who ins yhaaonkject of it. was placed in a most extraordi nary situitiuu. The Noble Lord had said, that a case of treason was the only one hi which an accused party was ever furnished with a list of the witnesses; but would the Noble Lord say that a case of treason was : the only one is whirl, the accused was able to learn ' the names of the witnesses? There was not one case in one bemired in which an accused party cente tot-the bar of a Court of Justice with so little klatiwleage of the charge against her, or the case heel* des this Illns , trious Lady. When persons were taken before a Ma gistrate, they heard the aernsation against them; they saw the witnesses, and knew how to be on their guard against them; but there was no such advantage here. The Noble Lord had observed, that the prosecuting ' party were not c ;wiled to confine themselves to those witnesses. But he (Lori' II.) contended, that the most important part of the evidence intended to be brought forward against any person committed for trial by a Magistrate, was known to anch person long before by trial, so that he had every possible means to prepare fur a defence. The Noble and Learned Lord on the Wool sack, who seemed to have made himself a champion be- P. tween the Courts of Law and the Parliament, bad stated that Parliament was not to be bound down by the roles of the Courts. lie (Lord H.) fully agreed with him in that doctrines and would maintain, that on that very account their Lordships ought, in the present case, to exercise a discretion of their own, according to the prin ciples of reason and justice, and not follow the rules or precedents of any Law Courts. If their Lordships resolved to proceed according to law, let the ac cused party have ill the advantages of law; but if they meant to proceed according to the exercise of their discretion, let them exercise it in an equitable manlier without looking to what were the rules ob► served in Courts of Law.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear I) Ile wished that the Noble Lord had stated accurately on what precedent it was that he acted. Let him point out say ease that had ever occurred before, and . say, 'bedsit, it bore any resemblance to the present': no—he could not do so; and, of coorse,tifia was one anon which discretion alone was to be exereiseil. In point of justice, they were bound to grant what her Majesty new request ed ; they were also bound to do it in pelf( of policy: be did not mean the policy of gratifying popular tlansour. The Noble Lord had said, that the Iloase of Coatroom would have a right to pro tare fresh witnesses; bat. however extraordinary the power of he House of Com mons was. yet, when the case came befors Orieni, they would know the witnesses and the genirrlT iomplexion of the ease. Therefore, in point of policy, he wished them to consider, for their own satisfactibn: and for their character's sake, how differently thq ease would come forward in the House of Commons; to there the accused would have the advantage of knowintall the evi. deuce on the second trial, which should creme on three. Then tke House of Commons woaki have thWatlvantage of r better and fairer case to try; and he bogged that their Lordships would not, by concealing tbritames of the winterise*, deprive themselves of a sinAtae selves tage, bet come to the trial of the ease frerifrolar all ob jections. As to Bills of PBl6O and Petah* he allays considered them must anomalous proceedingir a 'NOM t in such proceedings. the common forms of law de viated from ; that would not be the first s 1 is from I sil the principles of the Constitution which WAG likely M take place. The proceeding was altogether theamverse of what it ought to be; the exercise rif power ~ rintaeiN t di nary and anomalous, and aboold be guided only by the special elreumetancea of the case. Lord Et LIN 1101Metill leateslie Tully agrarst that Bills of Pains and Penalties were' exceptions to tllk general practice of the law, bit stiff 'fiserhari their 'tales and precedents to go by. The present was not an *withal- OW pr seceding ; and the very deviations belonging to kr 7, Ue to grant tty, which it was usual and _ would greet no more. Ile .would awl grant that whicialad nesar been grouted to , anj one before except in cases of high treason ; and indeed, he thought it would be impossible to select a course ofisroceeding more Amoorable to herlilltsjsretr than the 'present ; and 'be %bought on this occasi the Parliament was actin in a manner the most vourable to her, so far as was comistent with t practice and spirit of the Constitution. But that Lordships were not obliged to do more than was cuO• 1 dude* to the ends of justice. He asked of what use' would it be to her Majesty, who was calling for her' trial at the end of 2-1 hours, to have a list of witnessed!,l many of WllOlll were at present on the Continent? Het knew of no end that could he answered by granting such a list, except that of exciting popular claniour.-- (Hear D—were their Lordships aware of the errors that tnlgkt occur in describing and giving the names of the witnesses, and the advantage which might be taken of misnomers by her Majesty's Counsel ? It would he impossible to give the names of the witnesses whims.% agitating the feelings of the public; and it would ba' absolutely necessary to bring them to the Bar of that House untouched and secure. After these witnesses, should be heard at the Bar, and after their evidence was recorded, than her Majesty's Counsel would be allowed a satficient time to inquire into their charac ters, and to prepare fur her defence. Fur his own rark l he had no doubt as to the course of proceeding that ought to be adopted in this case; and if he had any doubt, he should recommend an adherence to the spirit of the common law. But that House would never be able to uphold its own dignity, or command respect, if it departed from those principles which had always regulated its conduct.—(Hear, hear Lord Hou.axv felt it necessary to notice an exilic.• siun which fell from the Noble Lord who spoke last, He had said, that the object of the present demand was to excite popular clamour. He was not quite cer tain whether the Noble Lord had alluded to him or to his Noble Friend mar him. If he did, be (Lord Hol land) would nut condescend to vidicate himself against such an imputation. But this he should feel it neces sary to say, that such language was most noparliamen tary ; and that he did not envy the Noble Lord the charity of throwing out accusations of which he had no knowledge. Lord ELLastmeocon, in explanation, disclaimed any imputation either on the Noble Lords or her Ma jesty, in what hail fallen from him. Lord HOLLAND expressed himself sati•fied with the Noble Lord's explanation. The Marquis of Built contended, that the Ileum bought not to he governed by the proceedings of other Courts ; particularly so, when the present case was of a nature differetit from all those that could apply to au subject of the realm. All that the House now granted was, fully what could be considered as consistent wh strict and severe justice. By the law of Scotland the 'Queen would be entitled to a list of witnesses; sad why should their Lordships act partially accortharce i those laws which were confined to England ? The No ble Marquis concluded by giving his assent to the. motion. Lord BILNAVEN said, he could not gi, aMs vote ow this occasion without making a few observations. They were about to pass a law, which would deprive her Majesty of rights, which she would otherwise possess. In such a case it was their Lordships' duty to afford her every opportunity of conducting her defence. 'Her Majesty asked no more than that which, according to the laws of one part of the British dominions, was al lowed to every subject. and to which she was entitled. Ile could not help expressing his surprise, at hearing certain Noble Lords opposite, and who owed so much to tlimpeople, raise their voices against what they called " popular clamour;" to hear them exclaim, the people mean to trample on us, to direct us, and so on. He remembered the time, to use the words of the Poet, " When Europe bowed beneath the yoke, And Austria bind and Prussia broke, And the/end Religion's purposetwave, Was bartay'd by a timorous slave." At such a period as this the Noble Lords, who now decried popular feeling, called for and found their best resource in the people. The Noble lord concluded by stating, that be was determined to support the - . mono.. The Earl of Can't tavost said, he thought the Queen was entitled to all the advantages which any one of their Lordships would claim for himself under simgar circumstances, and he saw no reason why la bee ease that rule of impartial justice should be depatiad from, which said, do as yua would be done by." It the DM itself was sufficiently ridit nlous, which be wet peevieeed it was, he was at a loss to end an epithet strong @sough to brand with, the refusal to the Queen to see the names of her accusers. What, in fact, was the charge against her 1 A tissue of insinuations rather than accusations-- hints loosely throwstast, ai overt act whatever. Now, theaa•ite Would divide late t /repasts, and then endeavour .. 7 ._,.. - N______ 4 : ... • l 1 ants. The Noble M:4r inis had talked of a fist u Witt , It *sigh A advantageous, zesses being on the buck of an insliotsvent ;it might edifier to-311a defeadasa_ be st), but .., ,i co. :tat that there might be witnesses ever thing to her Majesty to be aftern ard. ealirll on the trial. The mode in which I prop r to grant i 'bid be sv anti Word b oo riber thi Ue alat. willing to grant I sit' tam. . . . to ithowitra liouswthot lw sitter of them there was no- thing whatever w afford a basis fur a grave proceed- ing. In the ant, it was stated that the Queen had been guilty .t 4 in linbecoising intimacy" With a menialvervain. Were was Airbags 's this? Perhaps such Pi§ ss CUI 4I 7 _tot the 1. litpt ands society was no: the most lather Si ..... 1101 could she choose better ? Was ' " • on to make a selection, or frog !at, . been side to exclude her .... iratO a opts , Aug a c companions for the last lalisrAlletwilL. . lag this to he tree, what was 11l 0 f 'MK ' • 4 ground for the Hesse of Lords to set sipois? justify • grave proceed. jughy a body Idwitadaim , in th is ifistance, th e highest = live. th at of legislating and judging? Their hips win not, could Dot be ignorant of what ztlierlse fate of a pvt c ling in a Coat or 11.1 . t!, • upon such a sup ture, without point. with- out As gyr a tor t stated. w ottt possibility of l tiring n i rcir:, it.Twas coul eq d Z e ; v repu il l .— repugnant to law as i li t L e- greotiore to common sense. Sat again it was said " her ros4t had promoted this menial, and that by her later- ferenue be had had honours heaped upon him." Where was she One In this? If to raise from obseseity wlsr i thless beittp--if by making them the depositnetes et Um parietals favours of Kip were a crime, fine holPr a bsteceigne of Europe I Was there never known !tsels more unworthy his Sovereign's &slow , the. he ilia not pause, be did lot call for a tapir. far be eared tiled not to go far front home to be siswerod in the affirmative. Well, but, after disposing of this ant part of the charge, they came to the second, namely, i V . , • I " her Majesty, still farther anmisa situation, dm was guilty of an &dullest he." Really, if there was any subst al charge, it was contained in these words intercourse," which, strange enough, le; as as adjunct to the -brat alleptiou, meant by the introduction of these wea templated to bring a charge of a (listings against the Q 11141410 ? If 10, then she ought t 1 it. If it was net, where was the weight ol ous intercourse,'construe it in its broad mean no more than "traitorous inters. there ever an instance of a man being such a charge of treason 2. This Bill to gradation sad divorce. Ihmessuld eithe out a distinct charge of adultery ? iL Rev. Prelates opposite to say, could a tained upon such slight grounds. He co fore, that a distinct charge should be m Queen. But if it was the object only multitude of offences; of which, the pros' one half would be proved, to raise a pr the Queen, he won't' wish to see such tel But why should not the Queen, if she charge to meet, at least hare opportuni, the Ithacan, the only substantive and the accusation. It was easy to accuse—e every action of one's life, as to erect it in it was extremely difficult to meet an idt stantive accusation. If it was the case of course, knew nothing), t her its scions any one act of her her proofs would be directed to seentors might nut hit upon the h indeed it was very probable thaistieli a they attracted the attention of the Qum be those which would he passed over was, therefore, more necessary that the have all possible facilities of defence. contended, that the public, and the Qui (paired more distinct charges before it proceed. It bad been said, over and ova there was no specific charge, a C om o o f not take cognizance ; vet, under circuin a 'tar, the House of Lords found itself continuing its proceedings. lie wished, of that House, a more manly course had and on all these groom!. he would give th Noble Friend his warmest support. The Earl of LA I'DIER 0 La said, he w risen at all, if an observation had not f Noble and Learned Lord who opened the said that refusing a list of witnesses to tt as contrary to the spirit of the law as i the practice of Parliament. Now, with', that question, he was content to put th, the same issue with a Noble Friend of lenborough), who asked whether or ne justice would be defrated.—(Hear :) no possible gout that could result to f the 'doylies of the measure to-t proposed that the House should have of examining witnesses to rebut the rvi to the Queen ; did it not follow from tin of wituemes might be served, and ammo or false names might be given, and the search after mere noneutitics? Agaii would it be to the accused? The wile tampered with—(Hear!)—and he was require much persuasion, after recent convince their Lordships of the neccssit their witnesses. Who could say that of these witnesses would not meet the if they did, who could anrwer for the He desired their Lordships to turn foe the late treatment of some witnesses the Continent, and they would have * probable iainen lamen ted e th fli a rr of an the national nationa acquiescence lclianctr in r s t io hi disgraced by such treatment ; and 11e t sake of our tharacter, as a nation, suet bs avoided if possible. On these gee Lord said he would vote against the m Lord Basalts than rose in reply. proved to him that his motion would is hindering the progress of justice, he neat withdraw it. He was, hoverer, convinced by any thing which octane it would have any such effect, and was mined to press RS adoption upon the the statute of King William, and in do Courts, the practice had alwtys Wen, be this House upon charges of adultery, to I notice, not only of the art itself, bat I stances attending it. It had been sail Lord (Ellenborough), that be was willi Qtaen all the facilities of defence wild circumstances, she was entitled to, bet would ask that Noble Lord, was them orb ledge a case similar to this. He shoal a charge including the Queen's conduct did hom one place to another for urea, Am was ettitled to a list of the wittiest SU guidon was founded upon the and sellout statute of King Williaso, and be at all was give,. It was tree, that be Lord G. Gordon, this statute was in abet his own experience he could sat ilia fr been done by giving the defe alpine them. The nest ass and though mock had been said of tic f°rel iP t whin &Or law, be did noir "t with any, *Mpg the eulogiwo Steel, *pot this very statute, es id exemplified In Hatfield's cute. Witk opinion of gr. Justice rooter, upos, cited by the Learned Lord et the if, not think the sophist of a pelisse half put in reimpotitios with the psalm That Act, tow„ it wetted, was a consist:ad lifp, of all certain* absolutely wialeek sad even a Tory i times be tieti.—(A laugh.)-1 he Ni eluded hilt/lag, that it vas entirelf, di, Howe, as supreme Judges, to sloe, bat Its wow smemviaced such a 011 be contrary's, tibe boot dictates of Jur The questima iseing then poi, apse d stranger, vitro ordered to withdraw. ' dh'blon, the numbers Were— ..... ‘e •F•E t J llltg atity against the Iffetise 4 .: 41011140 ed at Wisest Tea eielei t • 1161111111111-41"14100111IONS. 14010.0 .:;swonLitivit intunTy HOUSL--A permit ilieess'appimva at the Bar with maths I . : I