The Statesman. — London, England, 1818-03-04 00:00:00

-- - the Petitieogr twe block, eyes.; SW be . had.been re moved several times ; and detailed various other •cir• cornst Races of ill.tteatesent*-The' PletitiOn was then brought op, awl laid on the table. Mr. BENNETT wished to ask a question of the Attorne):Gettesaf,' Which' vas, whether it. waikthe intention to bring these persons to trial for the pub 4ication of the parodies, after the acquittals of Mr. Hone, the principal man who had been charged with the offence in the commission of which they had been implicaied, or 'whether he would feel it his duty to discharge them from their recrignizancei ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that unless those persons shouW.receiveooticee( trial, they were not bound to appear. Unless they had notice' of trial, the fact was that they had no obligation what. ever for RITPR/Rucis. • Mr. BENNETT said that was not an answer to his question. Ills question had been whether he felt It his dote to discharge those persons from their re tognizancea after the acquittalo of Mr. Hone? The ArroßN EY-GEN ERA I.anserled that he did not, on account of that acquittal, feel it his duty to discharge the recognizances of those persons.— 'Whether It was his intention to prosecute them, trom bariety of considerations that entered his mind, that might he another matter ; hut it should not be thought that • lie would forego the prosecution of what deserved it inn one place, because the person or pert us charged with the same offence had been au. quitted In another. To state that as a general pro. position was improper, and be did not think that the One line of conduct was at all a consequence of the ether.—llone had certainly stopped the sale of the obnoxious publications, but what had been the con sequence ?—that others had set about their republics. lion almost within a few doors of the place where they had been formerly vended. With respect to one shing in the Petition 'respecting the case having been *loved into the Court of King's. Bench, he might say that tire case bad beet, removed by certiorari into that Court, and the reason of that . was, that he did not think he was doing justice to the Country to pro secute him at the Quarter Sessions, till he had brought so trial him Whom lie 'considered the prime n e wer of the whole mischief, at that time. Mr. LYTTLETON looked upon it to be the duty of every men to contribute his mite towards correct. lug the mischief which might be produced in the country by the verdicts that the Juries had given in the . case of Hone: Enquiries bid been refused upon many Petitions which detailed circumstances that, if true, reflected the greatest dishonour and disgrace upon the country and the Oov.rnment, but which, if false, ought, es ROMS as possible, to be disproved.— He take the liberty of submitting whether tai Juries might not have been indisposed towards any state prosecutions, on account of the measures under which the People had been smarting —Wear. hear --and. the manner in which tither State prosecutions had been conducted ; and it was a question how- far such a state of mind might exist when the Bill of In demnity was going to be proposed to the House. Mr. BROUGHAM was pleased that an opportu nity was, also offered to him of expressing his opinion oe what formed a principal subject of the Petition they had lately hoard. He agreed with his lion. Friend io regarding with feelings of unqualified dis appeabstion the very repugnant, and, if be might so say, in every point of view, the very disgusting pub- Bastions that had been issued ; and he agreed with him in not making any remark in disparagement of the verdict of the Juries. Indeed, had It s been upon the Juries himself, under aft circumstances of the case, and considering the impunity of former libels of the same nature, and the general conduct of the prosecution, he \ should have felt it his duty to return the same sertlict. The Tories were justified in their conduct. They might, and no doubt did, wholl) disagree with the tenour of the libels; but they con sidered that they were political prosecut' s, and it they had ten times as much blasphemy in thew—if i s were possible that ten times as much blasphemy coulti have been crammed into such a space—it they her: been on the right side, they would not have been called on to gibe a verdict of blasphemy against them. They acted as British Jurymen ; they thought that hs acting as they did they served the cause of religion better than if they had given verdicts for those who served it only when it suited the aide to which they belonged. Lord CASTLEREAGH rose to express his opi. nion entirely against the doctrine laid down by the /lon. end Learned Gentleman in his speech. 11.- thought that that was open to many objections, sin' deserved great reprobation, for he had never heard a doctrine more fatal to the Trial by Jury, and to the due administration of the laws. it was a dreadful thing indeed, that the Jury were to travel out of the question of .law, and to erect themselves into a poli tical tribunal, to consider of the motives of prose cutions. He could not conceive any doctrine so completely contrary to all principles of law and jut tice, and so fatal to the pure conduct of all legal in - stitutions, if such a doctrine could obtain any sanc tion beyond that of the Honourable Gentleman.- 11 he could remember the parodies to which the lbo nourable and Learned Gentleman had alluded, they were not•sent amongst the lower orders, nor pub lished with that intention, but had been introduced amongst a higher kind of literary publication. Mr. WILBERFORCE said, it ought, in his opi.. skin, to be considered, whether or not, Without prosecuting, the libel wouldb.e. likely to have a great degree or circelation, or would do- e great degree of mischief. He remembered a,case of.prosecution, in whiclue Noble Lord (Lord &Slane) had been parti cularlyengegeth Iwthat.cams, the question of pro secution and not prosecution wii fully comiidered.— It NAN he believed . , cwt' the second part of Paint's Age of Reason; and at that• time he recollected it was proved, that the circulation• was such amongst all orders and classes-estsociety," that it could net be brought into more notice or greater publicity. Lord COCHRANF. said, the origin of the,griev. ances complained of arose from political motives, though these motives were .not •statetl. The prose cutions were carried oti strider the pretest of pro tecting the interests of teligion is This convenient handle ,was laid' hold of • for the purpose of oppress-. ing individuals who attempted to ezpose the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers in the manner which appeared to 'them' most effectual. Ile hOped th e House would listens with attention to the prayer of the Petitien.leid: open their, table; and dul l if the •rF ST, grievances corepholited of were found te t t)* I roe, ea supported by evidence, .tbey would not scrota the godly Itom punishment. REFORM INt SCOTCH RUROHS. Lord ARCHIBALD lIA.MILIOS presented a Petition from the Guild Brethren and others 'of the Bergh of Ayr, complsining of various abuses in the present adreinktration of the Bergh. The Noble Lord said, that on a former night the Lord Arlen. cite of Scotland had (repressed his intention of soh. mitring some measure to the House on the subject of Burgh Reform. in the absence of the Learned Lord he hoped the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh) would hes hle logic. aorneinformation en this subject. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that on the subject alluded to by the Noble Lord, be was then unable to give any distinct information. He believed, however, there was a Bill in preparation, anti he shoold consi der it his duty to make enquiry.--.The Petition was then laid on the tattle, and ordered to be printed. Sir SAMUEL ROM I LLY rose to present a Pe tition from certain inhabitints of the city of Bristol, ' praying for Parliamentary Reform, and signed by about 20 iodividuals. An opinion had become ge neral that to present Petitions signed by a greater noosinr was contrary to law as it now stood. This, however, was a great mistake. There was, indeed, a law passed after the Restoration which rendered it penal for permit's to go about to solicit signatures to a Petition to a greater number that, (went) : but there was none to prevent Petitions with signatures to any event, when the Petitioners came regularly forward to do so. This wss the state of the law, and it should be generally known. The Petitioners had applied to him to present their Petition to the House, and he thought it his duty to do so, though his sentiments were not in unison with those es pressed in the Petition. There were 44 other Peti tions for the same purpose, all from the same place, and with the same listener of signatures. They were all laid on the table, and the first was ordered to be !winced. Lord COCHRANE presented a Petition from a person of the name of Ronert Thorn, weaver, in Glasgow, complaining of harsh and cruel treatment under the Suspension Act, and praying fur redress.— The Petition stated, that he had ben taken np on the 231 of February last without any warrant, and confined in a dungeon, where he lay for five days vaithout any food, and that, notwithatandr►►g the ea traordinary inclemency of the weather, he was ut terly unprovided with 6re or bed-clothes. The Noble Lord said, th .1 if the allegations of the Peti __ non wete true, his Niaj..sty'%Mitti.ters were charge able with acts more flagrant than that of any Govern meat in Europe. lie hoped, however, the matter would he !enquired into, and that if the jailer was guilty of the cruelties complained of, the indignation of the country would fall spoil the author of the mis chief. Mr. FINLAY hoped the House would not be led to rely upon the truth of the statements made in this Petition. It stated, that the Petitioner hall been Oilcan op under the iuspension Act : but the fact was, that in Scotland hone were detained under the operation of that Act. i. With respect to the alleged harsh treatment complaind of, he had made enquiry, and satisfied himself thit the complaint was ground- Tess. - • ' • Lewd COCHRANK said, that the Petition stated that the Petitioner was indebted to an lion. Gentle. man, vi Member of that House (Nil.. J. P. Groot), for the preservation of his life. That Ono. Gentio. men if be were present, could give i n f o rmation on the subject of the Petition. The Petition was hid on the table, and ordered to he printed. The Noble Lord then presented similar Petitions from William Irvine and John Buchanan, both weavers in Glas- - - gow. The Petitions were both laid on the table. Sir S. RON!! pesented a Petition from Mr. Henry Schukes MKaiust Fairs-paruchial Lands in the 11,, f o u gh of Waitepgfnid, and other places, being, exempted from the hurthen of the Poor Rates. Referred to the Committee on the Poor Laws. Mr. FOlttllMpre.eoted a• Petition from Beverley, - against the Leaf hrt T/411. Lord COCHRANE presented a variety of Peti tions for Reform. The coositn was so much kil -1 pre s sed with the neces..ity of Reform, that before the close of the Session he was confident that Peti tions would pour in upon them, signed by tens and h.-limited' of thousands. lie had a hundred Petitions from Yorkshire, forty-five from Leeds, fitty.four from' Bristol, and five from Newcastle.upoit-T) ne. Sir E. BR YOGI'S obtained leave to bring a Bill to alter and amend 7110 Copyright Act. Mr. BABlsuroN moved for a list of all Recta. ales, Vicarages, Chapetries, DortnitoTies, and Per petual Coracles, in the gift of the Crown, or ,that have lapsed to the Crown, now vacant, distingvish ing the time when they became vacant or lapsed:— Ordered. Sir CHARLES MONCK moved for the Political Constitution of the lonian Islands, ratified at Paris 'on the sth November, tBls.—Ordered. Dr. PHILLIMORE rose to briag forward bis motion respecting Spanish Claimant", whn have ob. tained sentence of Restitution of Vosalv engaged in , the Slave Trade. Mr. WILREaFORLE wished the motion► to he put off, on account of t he indisposition of an lar,n. Friend of his, who ,wished to be remit either dis. cussion. Dr. PIIILLIMORE consented, and the motion was postponed till Tuesday neat. Mr. GOULBUAN brought in • Bill to indemnify certain Persons for trading in the West Indies in Foreign Ships.—lt.was read a first time. The American Trade Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monda . ► neat. Mr. ARBUTIINoT brought Doha Report etthe Committee of Supply. . Mr. LYTTEL,Teßwisbetl,to call the attention of the Noble Lord (Palmerston) to two points which •appeared to him AD affect. thst reputation of the Go vernment, as wells. the justice of the case. The first point was the practice d.eaacting frum ever y half-pay Officer an affidavit that he held no other office or em ployment. This was • harsh proceeding? The reason assigned last year was, that no office could be held'by a half-pay officer, without injuring his mi litary character. The Noble Lord had then said, that if officers were allowed to betake themselves to civil pursuids t .lbey would become either degraded or .` NJ eat star from their military profession. This he cousidered a very inadequate reason. Besides, hal m of f icers were very inadequately provided for; and it was the'refore extremely harsh to restrain them from civil employments. The second point respeeted a repletion which had not yet taken place, but which he understood to be in contemplation. It was, that the widow of any officer who may have died after the 25th of December last, holding any annuity or in come equal to doable the amount of the pension t o l which she would be entitled, shall receive no pension. This appeared to him to be a very cruel and unjust regulation. Many officers were at touch pains, and endured great difficulties and privations, in order to secure some provision for their families. H o w very unreasonable and unjust was it, that if they were successful, their widows • must forfeit the pension to which they would have bees. otherwise entitled. The whole charge of pensions was 00,0001. a year. By the first regulation, it was not pretended that any ming could be made. By the second they could save pethaps. 20,0001. or 30,0001. at the ea pence of all justice and fair play. He hoped that the Noble Lord *ould ehaoge this misnamed economy. Lord PALMERSTON replied, that the first point complained of was not new, as the honourable Gen tleman had admitted. It was the consequence of a section in the Appropriation Act. Half-pay Officers were not entitled to engage in civil offices, and to take the half-pay, which was a kind of retaining fee for the army. If they engaged in civil employment, they would lose their military character. Besides, it ought to be an object with them to be re-appointed to active service. The smallness of their half-pay was a motive for desiring this object. If they were allowed to engage in civil employments, this motive might be removed, and they might become mete to the return of active service. The second regula tion complained of by the lion. Gentleman was the recommendation of the Committee of Finance of last year. Sir C MOYCK wished to know whether any Convention had been entered into between this coon- try and the lonian Islands, respecting the maiutsiiiing and repairing of garrisons,' and the supporting of Wive ire those-islands? Mr. GOULBURN replied, that the lonian Islands were to support a garrison of 3000 men. The first Resolution was then read, that the army for the present year be 113,000 men. Sir W. BURROUGHS insisted 'that so large an army was incnnai•tent with the promises of Ministers, the expectations of the country, and the state of Eu rope. Our army was uow proposed to be 113,000 men, the third year after hostilities ceased, and while we were at peace with all the world. The establish ments proposed by the Noble Lord were not only greater than the finances of the country would sup port, het than its exigencies reqeired. The sow total proposed by die Estimates now laid upon the table amounted to upwards of 57,000 me°, present ing fill excess above the establishment of the yes!. 1792 of no less than 29.500 men. By this result, it appeared, therefore, that the proposed est. Wish. merit for Great Brit and Ireland, including Guerin. ley and Jersey, more than doubled what was deemed necessary at the former period. Would any mats say that such an excess was justified or demanded by the circumosuce, of our internal 'Realm; ?—[llear, hear!] —The incest of the finme force actually sos- I the whole war establishment of 17J3. which did not comprise more than 70.500 men. Even if the militia were taken Into this last account, the whole military force of every description would.fall short of what was included in these Estimates. The Noble Lord had pointed out but one reduction in the regular force, employed for the home service, since the last year, and the amount of this was . .but 1,959 men. But if tranquillity was now fully re stored, there could not be the same necessity for a large military force, which there had been when it wyekjudged necessary to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act:, The Hon. Bart. concluded by moving is an amendment, that the number of men voted for the service of 'rhe year be 103.640, instead 'of 113,040, as proposed by the original Estimate. Mr. CURWEN rose, after calls for Lord Pal merston, to express his surprise that his Majeste's Ministers should not think it right to give some an swer to the statements of his Hon. Friend. It ap peared to him, that this course of proceeding was extremely well calculated to convince the couutry of the necessity of some Parliamentary Reform. The Public bad a right to be satisfied, that if there. sees any measure of retrenchment practicable, it should• not be left unelleMpto(l. Lord PALMERSTON observed, that if what' had passed that night in the House was calculated to 'how the necessity of a Reform of Parliament, he presumed it was from the very scanty attendance which the opposite benches testified on the discussion At: so important a . subject. H reproach wsit appli cable any where, it was to those whom some per sons considered as the great defenders of the public "arse, and who, it appeared, had no time to employ 44 1 se investigation of the Army Estimates.—(Bear, hear!)—He should think himself fully justified were Auto abstain from making any reply to the so-often 'Repeated arguments of the Hon. Bvrnnet. He meant him uo personal disrespect, but he could see in. Ms observations no one new point, : Ror one coisidera. lien urged, which had not been- already stated;and, discussed. The speech of thellon. Baronet **so"- tirely made up of, threadbare references to the vestadi blishments of 1792, and it reelly appeared to Mot that an allusion. to the period of the Saxon Hey. , tarchy would be as.appiicable.to the present circum. stances of the country. To retrace a comparative view of this noturr, wool& be an. idle waste of the time of the Doom lie considered. it : sufficient ,to ,recal In their attention generally the. prodigious changes which the events of war end, the operation 'of various causes had introduced into the interne , eiteation of the country. Let them look.et the in enlace of our population. and the consequent. in .aressel of to r b olence. —(!lcer, hear! and a lough from the Opp:Won.) . Mr. CALCHAFT regretted es much as tbe s Ntibis .Lend the thin attendance which was given on all sides mi • question of so much public interest as the Army ,Weititnates. The reproach applied generally, and he sekoald be sorry werea division to exhibit their.scauty l onsrabers to the observation of the country. . Ile must r cestend Wet ao satisfactory sewer had !ism made „ . to the objections to the amount of the F.-14min foi the service of .Fotgland end Ireland, and he bed nd hesitation in declaring his belief that the redectiosi of thousand men tax precticable. When mes. curing the extent of an establishment, hew could they proceeed without adopting some basis. and what better (we cout.d they select than the peaceesriblisb.• ment of 179 t. He hid himself proposed redigrions in a former veer, whkh had not been assented tn.-. 1 In one instance he had recommended a diminution of 3,000 men on a foreign stelon, and he west ere scribed as an ignorant prejudiced person, who en• tirely mi,concrised the matter, although a short time after, his counsel was adopted, end the re duction actually took Ogre. Ile put it to the Noble Lord leastlereagir), whether be and hit Cabinet conclave of 14 were not bound to press. down the expenditure to the lowest riot that was consistent with t public seceeity.—lt shook be recollected, that itr present system of finance' was, as it were, living from day to day ; thar the Chancellor of the Eacheqier, the great stens. jobber for the country, was, in the ordinary course of gambling, taking advantage of every little varis. don in the interest of the paper which he was enabled to throw into the market. That paper, consisting dt unfunded Eichequer Bills, amounted to 86;000,0001:' and although he did not wish to speak harshly alb* transsesisins of-the Stack-Exchange, they formed bat an inglorious pursuit fur the Government of e great country. .All the success, however, of which the Right Honourable Gentleman could boast, in his destines, was the reduction of 3,000,0001. upoti 800,000,0001. of debt, a boast, which he appre hended would bet little mitigate tins pain that a Right. Honourable Gentleman who sat beside him (Mr. Huskisson) must feel, after the solemn appeals which he hall once made to him on the urgent necessity of bringing the expenditure within the income. Mr. PEEL observed that, with respect to Trelandi there weri two counties still subject to the Insurrec. lion Act ;'bur.the circumstances of that country wet' iviratly impinged, in regard to the preservation of the peace. He did not thick, however, that the mil , tary force Could be reduced beyond the scale which was cow propos.d, and'he conceived that the Hon. Gen tleman (Sir William Burroughsi, who had lately re• turned from Wirt, was not a competent judge on this mailer.—(A laugh.) Mt. M AR.R YAT observed, with reference to the colonies, that they were .not in a situation of contri. holing to the maintenance of the troops, with the 02•. caption of Jamaica. Ile did not think that a smaller force could be voted for their protection and safety. Mr. BROUGHAM said, it became the Commons Of England—as many, at least, were then mem- . hied there—to insist, that the number of troops km be maintained, eSpecialls• in this country, should not exceed what it was in 179'2. In a year of permanent pence, and when all danger of internal commotion was allowed to have ceased, it was for Ministers, and not for those who sat on his side of the House, to show why the force should be increased beyond what it was at that period. The People of England had' a right to be governed at the smallest possible eat peace; and if he showed that the state of the country did not reciaire any ettraortlitiary mee sures, the onus was on Ministers, to estanlish, step by step, the necessity of Maintaining every hattalioni it'd every troop of the line; which they now proposed to the House. The danger which now paisted was unt a danger to be apprehended from the People—it. was a danger that arose out of the doctrine Of legi. timate Governments, to be maintained and supported by military for Ce—it was a danger that the Govern_ ments would go too far in trampling on the 'LOIN and liberties of their subjects. And yet this was the time in which the Ministers of the Crown though; proper to desire so considerable an increase of the Standing Army, compared with what it was in the year 1792. If they wished to remove the cilitcon• tent which unfortunately ezisted in Ireland, not Mr the sword, hot by the laws, they stook' turn their at* teution to those 'objects which formed the principal grounds of murmur. The Noble Lord and his Col. leagues would readily understand that he alluded to the Catholic claims ; which, if granted, would have the effect of restoring tranquillity in, every part of the kingdom, It was scarcely necessary, at this time of day, to observe, that Standing At mies were ut terly inconsistent with the spirit of our fre4'eoncsl: lotion; but he would venture to say, that it keistt'6oll of the most calamitous signs. of the time% shot, in every country, armies were jsept up for the purpose of spnlialion, and of racking terror in lbeteiods of the People.—[llear, hear!]-11•011 stated thee much, he should merely add, that he felt it his (toy to oppose so large a Standing Army, and he molt 'heartily - approied bf the amendment of , his How e Friend. lord CASTLEK.EAGH protested against taking the year 1792 as the standard for the present year; he was. prepared to prove, that the very history of the year 1792 would be an argument on the other side: it was an argument against hasty reductions of our gilltary establishments, Is• dangers might arise from a state of too peas socurit#. He thought that the lien. and Learned Gentleman had not made proper alin wince for the change in the internal situa tion of the country ; since the year 1702; such as the increase of populatien and the 'enlarged state of the Metropolis. Pitt had• certainly failed in his , eliculation. end Lord Castlereagh) thought that Ministers could sot inakeator further reduction with _satiety to the cosotry. , Tito Homo than, divided upon the amendment of Sir W. 119rtueglts. The numbers were-- Ayes • V Woes Mojnrity - —24 Mr. AROUGTIAM afterwards moved, that the Report of the Committee of Supply be taken into further Consideration'on Friday nett. • Lord PALM ERSTON observed, that the first and lolestienptertvnt Resolutilm, determined Ake amount .of tise , force to be kepi upt had already been agreed to. Ho =told thetefure see no•resson why the coo. fidetatitaa of that Ohm Resolutions, which merecom. Litv felitelf °Colima . insportanceoshould be postponed. Mr. BROUGHAM ultimately withdrew hie mo. tine, and the Resotutiorweere read and agreed Tie Matiny Bill eras brought' in,:read a last doe s and ordered ter a second roadies to-morrow. Adjourned at 1L o'clock. 1 . • •