The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-04-12 00:00:00

in; can produce such an effect. Both Governments iss n great degree, on the support of popu li:• opinion. That of America depends on it alto. I thank God, the Gover nmen t o f thi s ze.her; and, c ,snntry is very much influenced by the same prin ciple. lf, the:efore, the people are not led astray, ;rid if the two Governments look to their true in. terests, if will be n difficult thing to encourage a ear between nations so nearly assimilated. Many ; ,,, rsue s affect to look on America with great jea. ', El y as a erne asel pnwer fel rival. For my own far from lookieg at America as a mere si sisl, I never turn my eye: Innards that great Cots. t eiihnot ie mind em o ti on s of a „„N For such a country as Eng. ; 4 1110r ., horn tho nite ot of suc:i a country as Anse. r i i . o —to h sro raised (tint was once a wilderness i;s recent state of cultivation—to have established • and prrwoority os ran instnense empire—to h „,gi se3 to the people that free syst?ns of govern. which we atone possess amidst surround. see all this—to consider America as • of Fa:Oats:l, grewieg up and flourishing, e l,r her fostering hand—this, Sir, is a situation of ~,„r e I've glory, and of more real happiness, than st , is nation on the face of she earth cats boast • fleas., h..arn— England has been made great eerst..f It: her °Mil liberty. That liberty never %vas Wean - met] by free Stales. NVIIPIIC•er it *as menaced, it %las by Powers differeetly constituted. It is berrluts, therefore, to set sip as the patroness of freedom throughout the %%odd. The nations ought to be taught to look to her for all the blessings which msakio3 mss thrive Isom independence —they ought to racise from her es.ample those benefits which no m t, e r po , ser can rotifer. NVith these sentiments, Sir,. f a:Linking the Address moved by the Hon. Member st:ch a , ought to be presented to the Throne, I shall p r opose an A n o s ndi erei t," I. stated its sulis;ance, ot.i-faction of the House tit the restoration of peace ▪ Unitc,l Stork. but thm they shoot! feel deficient in t! , •or riots, if they dill n,t es pi rss to his Ho 3 al flightiris their st , l . repel that a menstile sit orcessary had nut been sooner :IC : Ike on review jog the t Ins of the Treaty, th..y erre at a loss ti. di.o . over tile r:.ose, which had retailed its con • ; a.,d th it Ow honour o f t h e (7rutwn and interests of the reo ; tr r,tpiir..,l, after t eon. ,union of the Treaty of Parts on t b e :n.:l of Mil, the most speeds' nod effectual measures fur sritliag n pence is ii i Americv : tl, it the cessation of nor in r. moved or At-nended lie Cail , es of war with Amyl iea ; tk.1.110 elevated and commanding situation which Great Hri ton awn held anion 4 the cations, would have rendered the spiel r>t means of vacificalt,in hly honourable to berrouti rds vi the cov..tionrat, and n imlil have given a proof of waveinimity aid ge..prosily, by manifesting a desire for the es otoi.b•hro; o f pr ime on terms lionoUrahle and likely to he per world his the jostle.. of the conditions. Great mid irrepol able Wilily had been i,ceasiimeil by nn unprofitable nasty of money, and of the lice. of brave °fivers mid men ; and it wit, to he la tortotol, Cad this lu.. might azgrasated from the fear that mot . itr military fame might he he the later events of the tsar. Peace brio^ at length establish. d, it was the ▪ o 1,4 of she Hoar to eoltuvate corchalitl between Oral K ;Ind Air...this, anal the House trusted to a corresponding d•y•suiuuin the Untied Slates, so that the I wo tree,. nations la IV , meld should e 111111 L the spectacle of lasting concord Right lion. Gentleman then said:—t' It is ret, Sir, that I make one more observation %uhji- , :t. It is hard to forget the loss of those and troops, caused by the delay which took roml:.(ling Ow Treaty with America. It is oogli to lament their fate, when we consider due to their 160: character. But it is win rd to be obliged to lament their fall, at this , when pet baps Ergland may stand more in r the assistance of such Officers and sucit than she ever dhl before. Vet this loss has lined by the neglizence or blameable iudo i his 111ini•tet5." Address and the Amendment were then read !Tea LPr. URN wished to call to the r col of the Right Ilonottrable Gentleman, that himself attuned, after the Repeal of the Or- Council, there was no longer any cause for time part of America. There was no clause I in the Treaty respecting out maritime rights, tight of blockade, because it was considered is mi4ll;. have had the effect of injuring, ill sttetigt:teoilig the,e oi : 4104. If the !tight rehtlematt had teal the documents given to lite he would hale (timid that the Ametican Corn ters were espiessle instructed to insist nit tiotts ngitost the impressment of seamen, &c. °a the 2.ith of June last, that they were for time authorised to give up this stipulation ; it the icceipt a this - power, it would have In enter into any conference, as it would ieeii impossible to conclude any peace. There c ou te m l. , ,l, been made no demand on the of our I teliaii Allies which had been departed had been procured for them, definite boo iota r v--- [War ! .front Pon -.1 boundary act:gilding to the treaty of ISt I. The eliorts which we had Ge, %vete not the kbi hiudable be hey wig:a bedee;u , ii by some pet sons savages, .rt• thought by one Honourable Gentleman as beneath our attention. As we had entered ..;,Lzentetits with them, we were bound to re •:, ititei - estF, and defend independence, .was tint li.ss dear to them than to the most peopte.—Throngli the eat tier notes of the ' 3 " oego:•iitorg, the claim °it our part that • , ationb Fhotdd tn. considered as n. i r Allies was 'y opposed. The same oppobition being made pr,s , rst;on of the Likes, it was deemed more ;) . e to the gc.tteral cnfety of our colonies to 1 p that adsanta4e, in consideration of °lnuit). Inta7.es for our AlLim!. It had been said that cutiressioos had !men made on the side of Britain, so that all the delay was attributale Govortmlent. The flight llon. Gentleman Ponsnnby) who h.notglit this charge, should it.sidercd that he uas not j,Ntified in judging lie garbled papers published by the American it . .3eut,whets there was no hope of peace. The hnd been mad,. nn both sides.- 160 allttoiotment of Commissioners to decide ht to the isinodi in the Bay of i';isiamaquoddY l as A subject which did not depend upoo geo ical knowledge, but was to be supported by tt and oral evidence, as to what had been for hid down AA the bowl& of Nova Scotia. lie I `7C contended, that no blame was to be im- ): Iry rat rm. it qas I ber freedom to be tail to).•ki , i3 to icctiii ( otter pnv st:ch o ' , w rist , a P vat' 1••••4 it... t!'..ir durst s4s,i , rept. ~ere at it I fol•i•/1! ; of r. thitlbr rte tam aril n al t itt taliti•trtien• svnaral 'alloy load nail of th.. (Vol, • IV Ili al the out a..t is ka It ' , iv, ant • 11'1 :411011 io :63 I. I tell o:i.ri.is tau! I or. • ti!..“ is 1 t:ko,P Lap nerd of troops, f Sle ,UStl 11Tro of Iy tiT ( b. :Jilin (I e br...1 61- iv - star o:1 ii.wrted cs our • s rad of • I , •;:dic. s;•, , ulati a It %as u 1. Cy.li ~St It 1.... , Ul•ifi tst kis:" het bad. lip $ .feet r. Val 7; ri W./ , fl. I. It 11/ p C . 1 . 11e !I' hi..l er z. zr 1 . ,:a 1: n.l • • in d. Istip!i•-; itsp ".1 of Ls, h "t uci - o- to • - 1 t• ug e- r ; is , 4, • • I - • t.t: 1:1 VO we he • t.t:l nd it or to of er i 4h lt %;1 ry I. e e ton ' • is I • • '; THE STATESMAN. puled to his Majesty's Government, and should therefore support the original Address. Mr. PONiON By explained. Mr. BARING.— No answers appeared to have been given to the notes from the Ameri can C omm i ss i oners till instructions were received from hence ; so that the blame or nue it of the treaty rested with Ministers.— We sent out a Noble Admiral of much experience, and conversant with the Admiralty business ; a Learn ed Civilian from Doctors' Commons, ns a judge of the laws of nations, and acquainted with all neces sary technicalities; and the Hon. Gentleman, as more immediately connected with the Government.— No mission had a character and composition more likely to make a proper settlement; but at last out came the most meagre treaty ever framed by the most timid diplomatist, and one that could not have been imagined after all this great preparation. There were points he should give up as unwillingly as any body, yet he did not see why they might not be dis cussed, in order to see whether such delicate sub jects might not he reconciled to the interests of both parties, Lathier than leave them with the apprehen sion of their revival in all future wars. America seemed ready to go into discussion. The question about seamen could not have been left on a worse renting than it now was, which was quite unsatis factory. The separation of the two countries arose out of a civil war. One of them found it necessary during war to impress seamen. This difficulty was' worth considering—to find how our impressment could be preserved without offending an independent country, which seemed difficult from the nations speaking the same tongue. The practice was very disagreeable, for it was often left to young officers connuanding bomb vessels. It must touch the ho nour of any nation. If any middle way could be pointed out, we should attend to it. It was said that from one-fourth to one-third of the American crews were British subjects, ever' as things now stood. lie thought this awkward question was really sus ceptible of a remedy not very difficult to apply ; and that something was likely to hare been done towards it in the negotiations of 180 G. Nothing short of the Orders intouticil could have enabled the American Government to go to war. As to the instructions to the American Commissioners, the Hon. Gentle. man could not know them at the out-set of the nego. ciation. On the question of the Indian boundary, the lion. Gentleman had not spoken with candour. He had treated the Indians as what he called the Allies of Great Britain. Upon that subject he (Mr.B.) agreed, that the savage state of those people was no reason why they should be abandoned; but Gentle. men must not suppose that they were people in the heart of America with whom we should have con tracted any alliance. In the Peace of 1783, the European Powers drew the line with reference to the Indians : in the time of Lord Chatham, the strongest resistance was made against France, who wished to make some stipulatiens with respect to those within. the Indian boundaries. Ile agreed that this country ought not to put au end to the war, and leave those Indians to the mercy of the American Government ; but that a solemn pacification should be made for them, and that they should be left where they were before the war was all that could be required from us. In the early part of the discussion, the Ameri cans resisted any interference with the Indians.— Thev asked whether a pacification and a boundary for the Indians was made a sine qua non Y and the answer was in the affirmative. The question was then asked, whether the boundary was intended to preclude the Americans from purchasing lands with out the consent of Great Britain, and whether the Indians would be restricted from selling them ? The answer was, that they might not purchase, but that the Indians would not be restrained from selling to a third person. The Americans said that peace with the Indians was so obvious as to require no com ment. With regard to (he extent of the Indian boundary, be would maintain, that objectionable as that point must be to any country, it would not only not he to the advantage, but to the detriment of Great Britain, even if we could have enforced it. --It would have been the most absurd policy that could be adopted. This Indian territory would have taken up more than one-half of the United States, and this was to be put under savage tribes. Any one who knew what sort of a neighbour an In. rlian wag, must be aware of the danger of setting up hordes of savages, who would rob and murder with out the least restraint. The effect on America of establishing the independence of the Indians would be this : instead of spreading out her people in agri culture, it would force her to become a manufactur hig, and a great naval power. Even, therefore, if we could have our vi ill, and could establish those savages in independence, it would he the worst thing for this country that could be devised. As to the lakes, he should say but little, ns it was evident that this country forced the Americans to have an estab lishment on them. All that the Treaty provided for was, that we should be nt peace, and that all decisions should he referred to a friendly power. The whole of it was a mark of the greatest neglect on the part of his Majesty's Ministers, who left the negociators at Client in the greatest indecision. Looking at the delay of the Treaty, it was impossible not to be aware of the injury of net making peace with America when the Treaty of Paris was signed. If peace had been concluded at that time, the country would have had to boast that we had fought a defensive war with America in the most honourable manner ; that with the most trilling force we hail shown ourselves capa ble of defending our colonies against all the power of America; and that we had left an impression on that country which for half a century would not have been worn out. The Government, however, had thought otherwise : they thought that that was a moment for making an impression onAmerica : they made that trial, and were foiled both in the North and in the South. Gentlemen might say, it was not fair to argue from accidental circumstances, and what had been the re sult of the campaign ; but none could say there was any chance of making an impression on that country, either in the North or in the South. He should like to hear the Hon. Gentleman defend the policy of pe netrating into America. He should like to ask him, what could be the object of the expedition to New Orleans? Supposing we had taken that city, what benefits would this country have derived ? We should have plundered some warehouses of cotton, to our great and eternal disgrace. One half of that article was purchased by persons in this country on specu lation ; but the object of the expeditiou was plan = der, and nothing else: for if we had taken possession of New Orleans, the very first warm day the men must have walked out, if they had any le4s to walk on. It was a spot on which the Anwricans them selves lost two nr three thousand men ; and if ten thotAand had been sent on that expedition, we cool(' not have had five hundred capable of performing their duty. It teas his opinion, that the northern States of America would be the first formidable ene my we should have to meet at sea ; and he only hoped, as peace had been concluded, that a little more attention would be paid by Government to the concerns of the two countries, and that means would be adopted to preserve friendship between them.— From the circumstances of both countries having co lonies, and the great commercial relations that sub sisted between them, it was necessary that a treaty should be made to define those relations more dis=• tinctly, for, without•it, it was impossible that peace could be maintained. Mr. GOULBURN'explained. Mr. MAItRY/1T spoke in favour of the Address, contending that in 1787, America had conceded . to France the right of searching for seamen, which she refused to Great Britain. Mr. CHARLES GRANT vindicated the conduct of the Negotiators iu leaving the question of boundary to future amicable adjustment ; and argued, that any complaint that the grounds of war were not stated in the Treaty ought rather to have come from Ame rica than from this country, whose principal objects had been attained. With respect to the character of this country, which it was argued was lowered by her late military attempts, he contended that the Treaty itself, so favourable to her interests, showed the respect in which Great Britain was held by the inhabitants of the United States. The Honourable Gentleman observed, that no Treaty was, primps, ever known to have been concluded upon the terms originally proposed. Those terms generally under- Went some modification. It was notorious, indeed, that a negociation with France was some time since broken otf by this country, because the negotiators en the part of that Government demanded an ulti matum at the outset. With respect to the Indians be thought them peculiarly entitled to the protection of this country upon the conclusion or peace, as they had been our strenuous Allies in war ; and that pro tection was the more required by these poor beings, as the Americans manifested a wish to dislodge them from their territories under the specious pretence of extending civilization. Sir JAMES APINTosti delared an attachment to the Americans upon this ground, however un. fashionable the avowal in that House, that that people were united to us in religion and liberty. — Of course then he rejoiced in the peace with Anse -1 rice lamenting sincerely that it had not been sooner concluded, and in this view he concurred in the Amendment. The two peat objects of foreign po licy on the part of this country,, hehad always con ceived to he, first the well-beitie of 'other nations, and secondly, peace with Amerfra • and these oh. • jects he was sorry to find so decidedly contradicted, ;by the • vulgar prejudices which hod been recently prevalent, and the promotion was equally incon.. sistent with the character and interest of Great ; Britain. The support of his Right Hon. Friend's Amendment appeared to him to rest upon two pro positions, first, that the commencement of the nego ciation had been unnecessarily delayed; 2dly, that . that delay was attributable to his Majesty's Ministers. As to the first proposition, it was ob vious that the ter mination of the war with France having put an end to thecause of war with America, a negociation ought to have been immediately commenced, as some of the American negotiators very properly ob- served, so early as Inst April in London. Yet our Ministers postponed that negociation, and thus oc casioned the death and disaster which followed—thus did this country conclude a treaty after discomfiture and defeat which might have - been concluded in vic tory and triumph. But as to the second proposition, the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn), and his Honourable Friend who spoke last, alleged that Mi nisters declined to commence the negociation in May, because it was understood that the American Presi dent was resolved to insist upon our abandonment of the right of impressment, which Ministers were resolved not to give up. Those Gentlemen, how• ever, be it remembered, attempted to justify the delay complained of, by reference to a fact which was not known to Ministers until August, until the negociation actually commenced. But why was not the proffered mediation of the Emperor of Russia ac cepted? Upon this point not a single word of expla- nation or excuse had been heard from the other side; and really the negation of this offer on the part of Russia was a most extraordinary proceeding.— If the Americans disputed our maritime rights, which he was as unwilling as any man in that house to sur. render, Russia had solemnly recognised those rights in her Treaty with us in 1801, and that power was in close alliance with es at the time her mediation was proffered. Upon what rational ground then did Ministers reject the umpirage of Russia upon a con- treversy in which that power was actually bound to our side of the question by her own recognition of the principle in dispute ? Here then was another and a stroi n ground of complaint (in addition to those already stated), against the delay of Ministers to commence a negociation with America. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in a speech of consider able length, defended the conduct of Ministers in the negociation with American ; &welling particularly on the points of the refusal of the mediation of Russia,l the delay in the progress of the negociations, and t he stature of the proposition respecting the ludian • boundary. Mr. J. P. GRANT supported the amendment. Mr. ROBINSON contended that no unnecessary delay had been occasioned by the British Commis sioners ; and that in point of fact had the 'Treaty been signed almost as soon as the negotiators met, it could not have prevented the catastrophe at Wash ington. Mr. J. P. GRANT explained. The House then divided, when the numbers were— For the Amendment Against It - 128 Adjourned et Half-past Tekelve. A Court of Common Council is summoned to meet at Guildhall on Friday next ; at twelve o'.;lock. , L 7 r - - ••••••j-- 310 ST IMPORTANT ,STA. k COPT OF A LETTER OP TIIE PRINCE SE TO LORD VISCOUNT EASTLEOEA(2II, DATED VIE :ANA, inc. 15, ISL./. " MY Loan,—Feu desire me to make known IO you in what manner I conceive the affair of Naples ought to be settle' in Congress; for, as there is tl necessity of settling it, it is a point upon which there ought not to be one moment of uncertainty in a mind. ; like yours. It would be for ever a subject of re proach, and I will say, eve(' an eternal subject of shame, if the right of sovereignty over an a nc ient and fine kingdom, like that of Naples, being contested, i Europe united fur the licit time (and probably for the last) in general Congress should leave undecided a question of this nature, and sanctioning in some degree usurpation by its silence, shored give ground, for the opinion, that the only source of right is farce. I have not, at the same lime, t o co n vi n ce yo ur Etta cellency of the rights of Ferdinand IV. England has never ceased to recognise them: In the war in which he lost Naples, England wls his ally. She has been since, and is so still.. Never has she recoge nistd the title that the person who now governs at Naples assumes, nor the right which this title sop* poses : therefore, in coneurrireg to assure the rights of King . Ferdieand, England has only (ere plain thing to do—which is to declare in Congress a hat she has always recognised, that Ferdinand I V. is the legitimate Sot ereigu, of the Kingdom of Naples. " Perhaps England, heretofore the ally of Verdi.. • nand IV. desires still. to be, so. Perhaps she may believe her honour demands that she should assist, if need be, with her forces, for 'his regaining the Crown of which he has been recognised the Seal= reign—hut this is not an obligation that can flo* from a pure and simple acknowledgment of the rights of this prince, because the recognition of a right dries riot naturally carry with it any other obli gation, than that of doing nothing that may be. cone trary to such right, and of not supporting any peel tension that may be set up against it. It - does not carry with it the obligation of fighting in his defence. • 44 It may be that 1 deceive myself, but it appears to me• infinitely probable, that a frank and unani mous declaration of theowers of Europe, and the certitude of the person who now governs at Naples, that he would not be supported by tiny one, would render useless the employment of forte; but If the contrary should happen, those only - of the Miles of ; King Ferdinand would be necessary, who should ! think proper to lend him their support. 46 is it feared that in this case the war should spread beyond the limits of the Kingdom of Naples, and that the tranquillity of Italy should again he in terrupted ? Is it feared that foreign troops should again traverse Italy ? These fears may he obviated by stipulating that the Kingdom of Naples should • not be attacked by the Italian Continent. Austria appears to be engaged. towards him, who governs et Naples, to guarantee him from all attack oat !hie side ; and if, as we are nssured, Austria has only engaged herself fel. this (hose tan it 'be Opposed that • the Emperor has given his guarantee against the righti of a Prince, at once his uncle an his father-in-law, to the possession of a kingdom rebid) he lost in mak: Ing common cause with Austria), she cannot be em barrassed in reconciling with justice and with the natural sentiments of affection, the engagements into which extraordinary circumstances made tier enter. 64 It appears to me, therefore, that wi•may at nue and the same time satisfy all our duties, and all out interests, and all our engagements by an Article such as the following:- 4 " Europe, united in Congress, recognizes his Majesty Ferdinand IV. as King of Naples. All the Powers engage to one another not to favour, nor to support directly or indirectly any pretension opposite to the rights which appertain to him in this title; but the troops which the Powers, foreign to Italy, and ' the Allies of his said Majesty, may march to the sup port of his cause, cannot traverse Italy.' " I persuade myself, my Lou!, that Y. E. is se . ficiently authorized to subscribe such a clause, anl that you have had no need of a more special autho ,rization ; but if you should think, otherwise, I shall request of you to require this authority without delay, as you have been good enough to permit me so to do (ainsi qu'etle a Lien :under me le permettre). " Agree, &c. (Signed) " Le Prince ale TALLEY RAND." 41,700••••••••• • ;7- : 410 * D . !4) es d. d It i t e • a 1.: 4 •• Lt i. 14 .4' it e. it rt ii I, 11 d in it ir • - • it • ti I. le • If IS 4 O It• r., t It • d • I h I f • o e r e a !)-• 3 .• • 1 • I FR.ENCII PAPERS. PARIS, APRIL B.—His Majesty, touched at the misfortunes which the events of war had inflicted open a great number of individuals in those distil-its which were the theatre of them, and among which those of the departments of the ancient province of Champagne have particularly suffered, has provided measures for their relief. His Majesty has also directed his attention to the condition of those brave men whom the war had deprived of those national rewards which they had obtained at the price of their blood. The removal of the diamonds belonging to the Crown is a spoliation of the public property. The dilapidation of the extraordinary domains is a still more odious proceeding; to snatch the bread from the well-deserving, punis Lene ;now:taus, to deprive the most useful, the most perilous, and the most noble labours of their well-earned recompense, is to attack all that is must sacred among men. Macdonald, it is said, tired out by his long ser. vice, has asked and obtained love to retire. There is no carther.account of the Loyalists in tha South, entler the Dake d'Angouleme. Marshal Suchet has left Paris for Lyons. The Duke of Bourbon has not quitted France. An Imperial Decree, of the 25th March, orders that the laws of the National Assemblies relative to the family of the Boukbons shall be executed accord ing to their form end tenor. Those members of that family who shall he found within the territory of the empire shall be delivered over to the tribunals, to be tried according to those laws; Tose who have accepted ministeriAl functionk um • der the Government of .Louis Steuislaus Xavier, }Count de Lille; .Those who formed part of his rnßitlry and civil hauieNOW; or of thOse of the Piinces of his family, • ... .: l ..