The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-13 00:00:00

I .. . - a effurg. af: _:•se conclusion .of a wist., in whirls their heroic ' on. had saved the c ountry, he did- D os thick Soo •he Hone , of Common, would consent to any such oreposala.-41Iear, hear.) Roble Lord was proreeding to shew that the state ment.fade by an Honourable Member (Mr. Hume) respecting the Staff of 11502 was erroneous, and, as hr supposed, taken from the succeeding year. Here Jr. HUME said, he took the estimates for Dec. 1792. • Lord PALMERSTON—Then the Honourable Gen tleman shews, that .he has attended the business of the House with little advantage to himself, for he has In:. taken the estimates of one year for the estimates of another. In fact the estimates (for 1803), though presented to that House, were never acted on. The war broke out immediately after, and it became neces sary to have an enlarged .Military Establishment. To send back the Government to 17920—t0 compare the expenses of tile present day with the expenses of that day, was not consistent with sound principle, or good sense.. There was in point of fact, no staff iu 1792, there were no regular returns insole, or accounts kept ; Gentlemen who night after night call for papers and returns, would find it impossible to obtain such returns, if the system of 1791 were still followed. lie next came to the public departments. The Honourable Gentleman said that there was a great increase in the expenses of the public departments—there was an in crease, but if the Honourable Gentleman would look into the accounts, he would tiod that there was a great reduction in the expenses of the public departments since the tertnination of the war. if lie compared the votes of 1814 with the votes of the present year, he svonlal End a reduction little short of 80,000/. in the expence of the public departments ; that fact, he Loped, would go to phew that the Governmeut had heed sedulous and sincere in attaining as much as possible the desirable object of economy. It was of very little use to shew what were the expellees of those departments since 1792; the business of the country was conducted now differently from the manner in which it was conducted hear.)—lt was conducted with more convenience, more accuracy, and snore regularity—(hear, hear. hear! from the Ministe rial side). —To turn hack to 1792 —to allow hut the same number of clerks—the same trairial establishment that existed at that time, would be inconsistent and absurd. As to the state of the public accounts, if Honourable ;entietnen would look to the state of the public accounts at present, they would find that less money, less to a very considerable amount, WAS flisposeel of to improper purposes than was disposed of at the period alluded to. The Honourable Gentleman said, that to settle the arrears of the public accieotts was bat a were waste of time. The House would oos by the returns that a suns of 110,0001. of unsettled :irrears hail been recovered with in the last two years, a gout more than double the total charges of the War !)flies—an office which Honourable Gentlemen hail talked of the good policy of abolishing. The lion. Gentleman hail ;04.) said, that the allowances to superannuated persons were too large. The lions:, he hope'', would feel that the country ought to deal by persons who devoted some twenty, some thirty yi.A.rs of their lives, to the public service, when infir mity and age required them to retire from the office., and rendered them, at the same time, incapable to turn to any other occupation ; it would, he submitted, be in consistent with the liberality or the justice of a great na tion, not to mike a provision for such meritori ser vants. With respect to one illostrione individual, of whom mention had been male, it was not neceesatet for bins to remind the !loose of Commons that, for twenty rears, he had setlitlouslv shot dot lei ; time to the ',Odic service: his noble affib;tion, at a oreat crisis, was to improve and strenotlicti the I; Army. The state of that army, compare I with is hat it bad ever been before, was a brilliant proof of the wisdom by which it was re:Totaled : he oriabl volitive to say (Inglee.l, thero was no man, he believed, who would not admit the fact) that, if it w, le n-it fir the attention of his Koval highness to the Army, and to all the details of the various military 11-uartment hich had lorouzlit the military system of this rottotr,. to a state of hi l rlo perfection, neither the olins of Wellinotun, nor the slistingnished bravery and ties ..lion of the zallatit army under him, composed of t h e three nation', aw l united in one wish to raise the F lory of the Empire -- yrt, if it were not for the superintendance of the Com mander-in-Chief at home, neither genista or bravery in the field would have been able, in she late great woo. pie, to have achiever! the independence and security of England. The Nol , le !Aril concluded by shoving the first Resolution, " Thst it appeared to the Continittee tobe necessary to keep up a Land Force, for the pre sent year, of 51,106 officer' and men namely, in (treat Britain, 14m•ritser. Ike.. 32..176 in the Colo nies abroad, and 20,77 S in Ireland." Colonel DAVIES went into several argument. to 11110 W the necessity or senfli.or the Estimates to a Cu m . tnittce up stairs. He made a statement of some length to prove that a great diminution might be made in the military establishmenta without rendering them in :obviate to all the reasonable purposes of the State. lie wen's', upon a Int u occasion, submit a re,oltt tints declaring it to he the opinion of the House, that it would be expedient in give the preference for all ntti lttary to persons now oh half pay and qualified toaerre. The Hon. Member entered into a statement of the titinther of officers that were selected from the Nlilititry College for service, and those taken from the haltestahlishnient, shelving our unjeat pre• ference in favour of the former. Ile next complained of the expenditure of the establishment of the Riding House in Pimlico, and considered it an useless esta blishment, although, incloding all expenses, it stood the country in the yearly suns of 3,5t10/, He 11A0 aa verted to the expendititre of the Paymaster-General's department : the Boman; of the salaries in this depart ment alone amounted to nu less than 21,000!.: and it appeared that they slid not exceed 9,340/. in the year 1797. In the year 1792, the total expense of the de partment of the Secretary at War did not exceed .15,235/... at present it amounted to 133.07-V. The amount of the salaries al•me in the former period was 16.070/.; in loot; th..y came to 49,9;0/.; they were now so high as 47,818/. Now he wished to know on what pretet:ce this prodigious increase maid he justi fied ? The Hon. Ilelsher noticed the illernse In the a:uount of the expense for the maintenance of the Comptrollets of tit- Aeconcts of the Army Eztraordi naries, which he stated to he 12,00 W. He had no other object than to have the items of expendituresin quired into, to soe where en, reduction might take Place. He concluded by moving, 1 hat the Cimino:so 110 report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The Gallery was :shoot to be clear:d fur a divisio n . when, Mr. DAIVt24.I i ruse. I c °lawn ed, that he had a, bi were hitherto snpported the present Adminii Cane he believed in his conscience that best calculated to maintain the interests of this noun- try. But at a period like the present, when distress stared them in the face from all quarters. it would be practising worse than a delusion to deny that economy in the strictest sense of the word, was not imperatively necessary. but he would go further and say, that par simony—the most rigid parsimony alone could save theeountry from the distress and ruin with which it was threatened.—(Hear, hear.)—lle for one thought the sum of 6,613,9661. too great a sum to be lavished on the support of the army of this country.—(Hear.) .....Of all the items of public expenditure, that for the support of the army (to the present extent) could be best dispensed with. In comparing the estimates of the present with the last year, it was urged that there was a saving of 163,-09f. Now it appeared to him impossible that the country could go on under such an enormous expenditure. Economy must begin somewhere--(hear, from die Opposition Benches) — and in no quarter could it be better practised than in the military department.—(Hear, hear.)-It was not his intention to trouble the House by entering into a minute detail of the Army Estimates, or to point out the different branches in which savings coati be most effectually made ; but lie would go to the Estimates of Ireland, a conntry with which he must •be supposed to be better acquainted, and he wouldadt where was the necessity of keeping up a force of 10,77$ awn in that country ? He maintained, that a consider- i able portion of that frirce might with the greatest safety be reduced.—(llear.)—lle did not believe that it was ever in a more perfect state of tranquillity than it was at present. But even if a spirit of disturbance were to manifest itself in that country, which was not at all likely, the Government possessed time power of checking it by a much more constitutional force, the Police. In addi tion to the Police, the Yeomanry of the country might be called upon, if necessary, and this was a force which could be maintained at a much smaller expense than a regular army. What then was the reason why such a force was kept np ? Did they dread going to war? No: it was a delusion to suppose so ; but if we were forced to go to war, lie trusted that we should rely upon our naval power, and not indulge in those Continental struggles which hod already cost the nation so mach.—(hear. hear.) —The House had heard much of the distresses of the country. The Petition from Birmingham chewed the ilepres . sed state of trade in that quarter; the Iron Works of Sta ff ordshire were at a stand still; he I ',1d01% Trade, this. staple article of this country, was reduced to the lowest ebb ; the Leather Trade, and, in short, all branches of our industry were equally depressed. At such a period, however, he had heard, and with considerable alarm, a proposition to interfere with the public creditor. ik for one would antler the greatest privation' rather titan allow a breach of the public faith.—(clear.) —One Hon. Member pointed out the National Debt as the great monster of consumption. In another quarter was tooted the ancient law maxim, memo maltsr ad laspna sibile .—(Hear, hear.) —Such doctrines would, lie feared, have the effect of producing out of doors a hostile feeling and of plunging the country into all the horrors of a civil contest.—(Hear, hear.)—'the Honourable Member con cluded by stating, that though he could not vote for the motion just made, be hoped that every possible re daction would be made iu the public expenditure of the country. Mr. IPHON.11.1) could not join in the tone of con gratulation in witiels the Noble Lord communicated to the House the reduction of the expenditdße of the army for Ike year as compared with that of the last, by the sons of 1411,000/. because as compared with the average amount of Imlfi and 1%17, the expenditure of this year showed an excess of 1115,000/.; and as com pared with the average expenditure of the year 1414, 1419, 14211, it showed an excess rather than a reduc tion. The lion. Member, after some remarks on the twevssity of reducing the expenditure, adverted to 31i- Mary pay. Ile said that the amount of the pay might to hear a !strict analogy to the pay of the laimouring agriunltoriat and manufacturer. Now it would appear on compamison, that the pay of the latter increased since the year 1792. in the ratio of tire to two, whilst the Fay of the former ( the soldier) increased in the ratio of two to one. Ile dwelt, too, upon the expe diency of restoring the pay of soldiers, by the amount of the increased value of money since the period when their pay was augmented, upon the express ground of the depreciation of the currency. He did not think that they should begin with the soldiers ; let the pay of officers he reduced ten per cent., and notice he given to all who may enter the service, that their income would be reduced by that amount. The Hon. Member then proceeded to the subject of the expenditure in curred by time maintenance of forces on foreign sta tions. lie thought that the superiority of our Marine force ought to be sufficient for the i.rotection of our Colonial Establishments, with the addition o f a .mall military establishment. The lion. Member proceeded to observe upon the useiessnes of so extensive a milt- Carr establishment as that now maintained by Great Itsitaiti, and adverted to the dispersion of one of the Largest assemblies of the people that was known in th!s country, dispersed by about forty raw Teo manry. to show the indisposition of the pea pie to violence, and therefore the want of any ne cessity for a large military force. And erot after these unhappy transactions, when time Gazeth was fall of Addresses stating the overflow of sedition, imam. ratite, and insubordinatiou throughout the country, what did Ministers do? The . y disbanded the veterans, and asked credit of that house fur economy. The Hon. Member next proceeded to notice what he called a phenomenon in the police of this country, namely, the employment, not he said of a spy, or an informer, but an instigator, who was always found to h in direct connection with llovernment. He allotted parti cularly to tire case of Fletcher, who he said it now ap peared, carries' this odious system to an extent hitherto unknown. But let the error of Ministers be what they might, it was not too late for them to do a little for conciliation, and a great deal for redo lion of ex penditure ; and if conciliation and relief were to he practised in any quarter, they were the more especially called for in Ireland, time character of whose people it was to feel gratitude warm and permanent for kind nesses, and whose resentments were so quickly dissi pated. Upon the necessity of adopting !tom... conci liatory measures for that country he would no longer insist, time subject was in much abler hand', and in those hands be'would leave it, confident that it' success could be obtained, it would be obtained by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett.) The 'Hon. Mem ber next entered into sumac observations on the state of our foreign policy. and said that no Minister would do leis duty who did not dismiss from his mind all notions of resuming miltary operations on time C amtitment. lie slid not cute:lain any ;re: , hopes th a t . a. • • ••• • I. L": - • the Noble Ltird was too pact 111 incased; foe 1. loterconrse with German dipl b bed completely spoiled him as a British politiciac The Hon. -Meng' her after a few more obiervations, mid he felt it his deity to vote for 1 redaction on those estimates of 10,1100 men, which redaction be would have mule in the number of the forces to be kept up at home, with affecting the establishments in the new or old Colonies. He would hare then, instead of 81,000 in round num bers, a force of 71,000, which he deemed as large as ought to be kept up in the present state of the country. Mr. C. GRANT expressed his satisfaction to hear his Honourable Friend who had just sat down speak with so much emphasis of the tranquillity of Ireland, ear. daily after the gloomy forebodings in which many Gen tlemen had iedulged, upon the discussion of the propo sition for re-establishing the Insurrection Act in that country. But notwithstanding these prognostics .the proposition was rejected, and now it was found quite safe to reduce the military force of that country NM men below the establishment of the last year, whine, if that proposition had been adopted, he had little doubt that double the force of the last year would have been neces sary to guard Ireland against the consequence of such a law—(hear, hear, hear!).—Hut the army in Ireland might be still more reduced if it were not unfortunately necessary, from the defective state of the police in that country, to employ soldiers there, in such a manner as they were seldom employed in England; hi such, for in stance, as the escorting of prisoners and the guarding of gaols. It was, however, the endeavour and the hope of the Irish Government gradually to relieve Ireland from the necessity of leaning so much upon the army.—(Hear, hear, bear!)—As to his Honourable Friend behind him (Mr. Dawson), who was of opinion that the tranquil state of Ireland, and the absence of discontent, render. ed it unnecessary to keep up the amount of force which his Noble Friend proposed, he called upon his Honour able Friend to go with him into the consideration of the measure brought forward lately by a Learned Gentleman on the other side (Mr. Plunkett), in order that he might understand the grounds of discontent existing in that country, and the necessity for removing them, with a view to the permanent tranquillity of his native laud.— (Hear, hear, hear!) Sir R. 11. VIVIAN said he was surprises) at the in eonsisteney of the arguments used by the Hon. Memo hers opposite. They would require of his Maieatv's Ministers to interfere in the proceedings which are now going forward on the Continent of Europe, and in the same breath would deprive them of the money for su..- cesaful interference. Ile would differ entirely from the Hon. Member for Aberdeen with respect to the expe diency of keeping up only seventy-five regiments, and those complete and then making lip new regiments ac -1 cording as the erre ire required iv. lie (Sir It. 11. Vivian) was quite certain that it would be better to keep np a large number of' skeleton regiments, which con'd be tilled up at pleasure, than to make up regiments entirely new, without discipline and without experience. If any reduction was to take place it ought to he in the cavalry; but with respect to the large moldier of officers an half pay, he was certain that what they received would scarcely pay the interest of the sums whirls they had paid for their commissions. The Hon. Member then alluded to the experiments made in the cure of the op t/so/mid, and other disor lers prevalent among the army, and said the Medical Board considered that the lion. Member opposite (Mr. C. Hutchinson) hail charged them with a conspiracy against Sir William Adams, in a speech which he made in that House. Mr. C. 111"E1'HINSON said the greatest gratitude was due both from the army and from the country to e Noble Lord who, by continuing the experiments, lad protected the army from the effects of that dread- Col (barer,. In his opinion the Noble. Lord was right in continuing them. In protecting Sir Win. Adams from the base slanders uttered against him, he Mr. Hutchinson) had guarded himself against the n e of any improper expressions against the Medical Board, and now be ruse to protect himself from the supposi tion of having ever said a conspiracy was formed by the Medical Board against Sir Wm. Adams. Sir It. 11. VIVIAN said in explanation, that the Medical Board did conceive the Honourable Mem ber to mean, that they had conspired against Sir W. Adams ; but he was glad to find they were mis taken. Mr. BARHAM., amid loud calls for question, made a few observation' in support of the motion. Mr. DAWSt IN rose to correct a misunderstanding of his Bight lion. Friend (Mr. Grant.) He Mr. (flew son) bail never meant to convey a censure on the Irish Government, but to give a general admonition in fa vour of a system of economy in all branches of our ex-' pensli tore. He haw! been of opinion that a reduction might be made in the military establishment of Ire land, and that opinion lie retained. In ISt! , the army in Ireland amounted to 20.607, in the present year to 20,70 s mien. Ile saw nothiug in the present condition of Ireland to require co large a number. In 1' 4 20 invieed, Ireland had been disturbed, and he had voted for a Committee to inquire into the state of it, (not for the Insurrection Act.) Bnt in argning the Estimates of 1 , 421, they were not to be governed by the necessities of 11.120.—(11ear, hear.) Mr. BEIINAt observed, that as there were a great number of Members who had come into the House late in the diarnaaistn, it was necessary to inform theta what the question was. His Hon. and Gallant Friona was for the appcintment of a Select Committee ta ex ercise its judgment on the statesurnte of the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston.) In order not to clog the wheels of Government, they were willing to pass a temporay Mutiny Bill, and to grant a limited supply till the Committee should come to a determination. — Ile called on those Gentlemen who canc.! themselves neutral, to support, for the sake of their character arid consistency, this motion. Mr. C. GRANT explained. Mr. BENNETT said, he could not give a vote with out having the items in the Estimates explained and discussed ; he should, however, be as brief as possible. He wools) wish that the Honae should know that the country was not able to bear the burden of the taxes flow attempted to be imposed on it. The Committee of that House appointed in lull, recommeuded a re duction of the various establishments to the state in which they stood in 1792. They wished an approxi mation as nearly as possible to that highly advantage ona establishment. The Noble Lord says it is impos sible to revert to that establisionent,--but it should be answered, that . the country is unable to sti;sport any greater.. lie was sure & considerable reduction could be made of at least 10,000 men. The question was, what defence was necessary for England and Ireland. •He thought 47,000 would be quite sufficient for these,' and about fifteen thousand men for the old colonies, making altogether a force of • 'sixty .sevep thonsand i lie should purpose uottrning to the year . 1792, because 0i1.... was in addition' a force not existing in'llP2, he mss it the several Gorr of Yeomanry, which amounted tv - 1 91711 V. l• air time mashie . tail/Alf Tkisse, with the regular threes, emousted altegetiseile 168,26 4 1. in 1816, or 1817, England 'bad bet '15,700, We' old Coldnles 13,000, the new Colonies i3,e77: era lielie6 25,000, which made In all= 66,777 men. 13,000 of which Would be enough fot Wand; lirorti'Mid fortresses bad been buitt.'and other eoinitruclitlai raised, which scooted to him mere follies, atiewOnii than follies, if they were to cause such eiperile in keeping a.; guarding them. What he would Mik, was to be taken 'Way, unless ship anchor's, anti •oti4r lumber of that bind ? lie did not know what Was meant by keeping ep garrisons at'Portsmontli; Plymouth,. and ("lath tm. Let the House consider the people, and not the Noble Lords opposite. Cnt down this unnecessary and ex pensive establishment, and the country will go on better. There was at present greet distress, with a great additional establishment. They had a Com mittee up stairs to consider the petitions Of the people, and to these petitions they ought to attend. hoed CASTI I EREAOH said, that it . was proposer) by his Noble Friend, in opening the estimates, to make a reduction of 10,00 Q in, the military establishment of last year, and it was now proposed to reduce 10,000 more, Ouly 17.000 was required for the old colonic.; and when they considered the extent of their posses sions, they could not think that too large a number. 15,000 had been proposed for the new colonies. He would not agree with his Honourable Friend, that they should increase the number of their force, in conse quence of any disturbances on the Continent of Europe, particularly Naples. He (Lord Castlereagh) did not think one man should be added to their military or na val establishment on account of those disturbances. — (Hear. hear.)—The Hon. Member (Mr. Rennet) does not quarel with the forces in the Colonies, but wou:d allow 17,000 for the old, and 1 . 5,000 fir the new Co lonies, and 17,000 for India; but he thinks -le,ttilo sufficient for England and Ireland, of which 8,000 are cavalry, an 15,000 are part's. Rut where cool.' find relief for the armies abroad, if he reduced the nintiber at home, frgin width supplies were always drawn to fill up the deficiencies abroad ? lite (Lord Castlereagh) would readily admit they had Isecurity front all danger at home—but lie would fou:: , 1 all his arguments on the necessity of .affording sup plies to the forces in the Colonies. He would not tend the present as a permanent establishment ; hut he contended that after tiovernment had wisely triel to itial4e all possible reduction, and caine to the deco.- Initiation to reduce 10,090 first, a further reduction ought not to be pressed on them. Thellon. Member for Aberdeen had opened a great extent of detail, an I at the close asserted that a sum of 3 or 1,090,000/. might I.? saved to the nstion, hot he does not mentino how these extravagant offices lie talks of are to be reduced. That hail been an opportunity for the lion. Member, and lie (Lord Castlereagh) could assure him no one would hear the suggestion witlimore pleasure than himself. It sea. iinpossible (Jr any nian, whys had a sincere regard fur the honour and interest of r his country, to say Ora its services could be earrie 1 on at a less expense, or with a less amount of military force. But even if a reduction were made in any part of our force, the diminution of the expense won h? comparatively trilling ; when it was considered that great saws were given annually in pensions. Mur,;!4 stress had been laid os the comparison between the peseta establishment and the establishment of 1;92 ; but he contended, that the increased expense of the present establishment over that of 1792 was not toot than about 900,0011/. when he considered that the ex isting establishment was applicable to the general scale of our services and expenditure. He was at ready as any member in that House to save whatet••• • could be saved ; hat it was a mere delusion upon h.! people to tell them that any savings could be made i-4 the public expenditure which could alluril them relief. It 4% as a delusion to -ay that the House of Com mons had the power of granting any such relief. —(lleat, hear.)---:144 pretested against such languar", because it Wit the language not only of - exaggeration but of inflammation.—(Loud cries of hear, hear.) — To tell the peoide of this country, labouring, as they certainly were, under great distress, that any saving 4 were likely to be niade which could relieve those dis tres-es. Mr. CALCRAFT said he should adhere to the lan guage and sentiments he had ever maintained on thaw subject; and the House must not forget that,, four or live years ago, the Noble Lord et:Aston ly said that the number of troops whatever they might he, were not more than the country stood in need of. If 41,000 men were suflieietit at this time, bow could the Noble Lord 41. - that 100,000 men were indispensably necessary role years ae - o ? But the Noble Lord never cared about any expen.liotre, however great it might he; and now wh••:t the ef tory was iturtliencti with such an enormous ex penditure, he teld the Howie, that no part of that 4.-- penditti re could hts reduced. He (Mr. C.)contended th .t two or three millions might be saved annually, and ter tt the affairs of thesenuntry might then he carried on as well as under the present extravagant administration of the Noble Lord. What occasion, he asked, was there for I I,rt I 2 Guard*, who constituted an immovable 'Or., and who were more by 4 ,000 than the Citardsin 179 ? What necessity was there for 20,000 troops in Ire land, where there were only 12,0011 at the time whelk Bonaparte threatened us with invasion ?" He wuuld put it to the House whether it wou:d not be necessary to yield to circumstances, when we were iri a stoic of onexamphol distress ; and to redueb a great part of our establishment whirl, was not wanted ? He should be happy always to see a powerful navy kept up: and it we should 1)c . obliged to take any part in the present war in Italy, lie hoped in Goo that not a singly British soldier wntild'he sent there, and that all out; efforts would be confined to our navy.—(llear, hear.) As to . the ex pense of • elerks in otheee,lie declared that they might toil there all their lives without being able ever.to lay up one shilling for their families. If reductions - in sa laries were to take pluce • they ought to hr made its the salaries of some of the lionourattlepentlemen opposite. SThe Noble Lor.l th rived t aikeld at this remark.) Ile id not, however, Mean to sayiltaf the Noble Lord, fill ing' the high ami d import ini •situ t atron he did, tvls overpaid:. He &Inled to floit(tsielieres Whil•ls hail been raised in tonsiuptence of tWaditanee In all . the neces saries of tile, sod whiettontplitestoes -to •bo.!reduceti, at those necellraries had faJleutsti= : * • . .• • 11r. lIVSKISSON amain •airek,4lo military eatabli shun At, of this Tree statAltsis :thigitire greater than the servile of ilia .Ifig.was happy to ilsaf** 6l- S•ble rebtrote that he did to .c propose a siegle maseititit• id4w otctaking nay part in the hostilities in the Continent ; Ike at the sane time isb•mhst Wens WeilVtte depelei en r .elves 'of the Mena i Ilf't ieirkggressien if It ahouhl ilereseary. r.)444ii0 Mee w tbea we . l, I I 4 . I : 1 ! - k . 1 1 1 ~1. . / I . i -, , .. .: , ... . 1,. , i . , . , ! 1 A P: 1 11- to of 10.