The Statesman. — London, England, 1814-04-23 00:00:00

sIATtgMAN, that Pou-e ? And, when Mr. Speaker Foster made the ' Irish Parliame n t * e ta rather td eon:Val - one oireieriting money-bins to Vie' Throne. Tlits.vS• eel° Prince Regent had kids " I fee! s treat surprise altici his t‘sposifion on the necessity of the Protesta n t as - tha n eou fi rm the Viehtisf the 'Speaker •to contain- •.clear, that if no such hill were passed, there could 1 indighation at hearing that 247 Members have been la hentlancy in Ireland, had he in his contemplation, nicate ciocumstancis" ) . which •ited .occurred Ott the .be no such right to address. 66 Ydu, Sir, held in lost to theii.clutV as to attempt to change the rendes that, ifs the very next Session of the Irish Perth,. House of Con t atone, b u t sw he s h h a il no t rece i ve d t ' your hand the Wo4 of Credit Bill , and creseed the mettle! he's of 'the realm." Woditrit hate been en. !tient, some of those colleen: dons were granted to the the sanction of a bill. The p r e c ede n ts w hi c h bed ' , Royal assent, without which bill ;our speech Wbuld dured ? If he had said, " I regret to find tfiat 24# Catholiea, aeti were passed into a law, vt hick had been 'quoted by the Hight . lion. Gentleman (Mr. have been an unwarranted Foi grace, respectable then are disappointed in their meritorious been precions'y refused ?—[hear, hear !]—This George Rose), had been pr i ncipally drawn f rum Sir ornament, and public effect; intrusion.7 proved the impropriety of adverting to measures, Edward ' Turner o ther matters !eight be labours ; hut as ; the obstacles are temporar • and thee ; but whoever looked to tirat time, introdueed antreten general topics of policy, though reasons permanent, I recommend them to p roceed." ' whit; were only laid aside for a moment ; which duriug which the speech e s that wer e delive r ed were at the rick ' of being' mistaken, but never a question Would the Hon. Gentlemen, opposite hate Suffered might be ietroduced, successfully introdued, in a tilled with the most fulsome adulation l would not of Parliamentary ' privilege. Mr. Foster in the this ? " What • right," they would say , " has th 4 eery short time after their defeat was announced.— be disposed to take s uc h a pe r i o d as a plocedeet !Irish Parliament, certainly made the Rennet* Ca- Throne to interfere? Are we to be thus hhooled and As a private Member, the Right Hon. Gentleman for their present prnceedines.— [hear!] n-If the , tholie question the subject of a speech to the lectured ?" It was said that the communicition was tertaiiils had a right to speak in a Committee; but as exercise of such a p r i v il ege as _ e e l he t e t assumed by Throne: but. it- was a poor precedent ; for he , not made till the close of a SesSion. What then, it Speaker he had ne right afterwards to mention what the Speaker on the late occasion 9 were allowed to had no reason to congratulate himself on it, !in the course of a Session , a Member knee", that he hall passel. Ile had no right whatever to make the pass with impunity, the 'met step would be to Poiat since the very nest Session overturned all his was at the end of it to be schooled end lectured asap expositiott he had. done, and which he considered a i out particular individuals for the animadversion of principles and arguments. Ile , Weever, alluded a sort of annual audit, where a regular account wad . 6datiott of dray, from beginning to' end—Ulear ' the Crown ; and if this was dope, it was clear that to no bill pearling ine or rejected : there had s in fact , 'to be rendered by MoSpeaker—[ficaio hear I—td hear . I ]—aggrilvated by . the situation in which he was the Sovereign would soon in. introduced to the been nothing hot a rejected petition. Ile perfectly the Crown, of their transactions . If there Were to • ... placed.—[Near, hear n—The Right Hon. Gentle- House, in order *to overawe their discussions, and concerned in the Speaker's general observations, his be this annual audit 9 names end sums, and all sort! man had quoted Mr. Hatsell. H e (M r . %Whitb re ad) put an end to that liberty of debate which had hi- dignified congratulation in celebration of odr victo- of particulars, Should be expressed. , Then tl4 would refer him to that part of it, where the an- thereto existed, and which formed a leading feature • riot's fleets and armies, and the well-earned meed of Speaker might be fairly called upon to amend ewer of Mr. Speaker ',entail was t o b e f o und, who lof the Constitutir.—[Cries of Order !]-lle praise bestowed utmn them. On these topics, all his return, and give in the names and the dif whet' King Charles demanded the five obnoxious i thought those Gentlemen who cried Order with felt proud and gratified at the elevation and proprie- ferent opinions and arguments.—[Year, hearll.-..., Members, answered, 44 I have neither eyes to see, I such vociferation , Would best ; consult order by pre- 'ty of the style. But it never could be Maintained lie wae sure there would be no special pleading up e eats to hear, or a tongue to speak, but as the House venting the Executive Government, from coming in • that the Speaker was to be the organ of the House on words; yet those in the Speaker's speech would directs." The Rig I Right Hon. Gentleman's conduct had contact with that House, except when called upon to the Throne, for mooting controverted points, - either warrant an idea of violent opposition, or of been very different—it differed essentially from that Ito give its assent or negative to any qaestion ' which was, even in perfected measures , without . pre- friendship, they were so ambiguous. It stnte a that which should be the conduct of every Speaker. 1 which might be submitted to it with the con- cedent. But in measures not passed, the question the claims coil(' not be allowed, as long as foreigd Ile had used his ears to ear, and his epes'io see, ' currence of the Meuse .—[ Hear, hear, hear q...-.: was quite different, The grounds of distinction and juriadictiott • was acknowledged : but that was not as a private Member of Parliament, and used his To that limit had the Constitution confined the ' objection seemed unanswerable. The measure once • defined. The Pope must continue while the religion] tongue, as Speaker, to give utterance to that which I Executive Power, and he hoped it would never be passed, it spoke fo r itself ; but you could not state lasted. lf it meant offensive foreign ecclesiastical he had no right to state.--[Heur, hear, hear !]— I otherwise appied.—[Heee, hear !]--,-(Jpon the ;to the throne the fact of rejection, without con- jurisdiction, none of their warmest advocates had This was the view he had taken of that part of the whole, he saw no advantage from the exercise of the • veying some censure. The rule was, according- , ever indulged them on th a t p o i n t , whether tem p oral Right lion. Gentleman's speech. If lie applied i privilege at present vested in the Speaker, and consi- ly, settled. When a Bill was preseated, it ep- ,or ecclesiastical. But when it was said, that mo- • himself to the other topics contained to it, he might , dered the co u rse whi c h he h a d f o ll o wed, and which ' peared as passed . unanimously. It was a standing • mellows changes were attempted, but that the Com join his Noble Friend in praising the eloquence with : had been the s u bje c t o f v er y p r oper animadverson i order, that in sending Bills to the Lords, the numbers mons adhered to fundamental lass, was there not a which the Right Hon. Gentleman had descanted on that night, if again adopted, could be productive ;of those who voted should not be expressed. What was charge against some who endeavo u red t o subvert thetrilliant achievements of our army, which had !of no essential good, but might be attended with the meaning of this, but that the House would not them ?—The Resolution of the Rouse, however , so frequently demanded the thanks of the House—. I the worst consequences to the interests of the Slate. , suffer its opinions, divisions, and parties, to be sub- ! provided that the Protestant succession and Govern those recorded congratulations called forth by great Mr. J. P. GRANT said, he should give his vote jested to any other tribunal.? But when its decisions i meat were to be rigidly maintained. He must ask events—and now happily terminated by the glory :in favour of the R eso l u ti on proposed by the Noble were accompanied by the' arguments and grounds of . the Speaker under what feelings he could make the pf the allied arms, and by the more transcendent ; Lord (Morpeth), conceiving that that introduced rejection, censure on the minority iias necessarily charge ?—llad the wildest advocate of the Catholics 'glory of moderation—[Hear, hear!]—Here he was iay his lion. Friend (Mr. Whitbread) went further • implied, which went far beyond all pretence of pre- been so mad as to propose to change the laws of the ' stilling to give every praise that nervous eloquence , 1 • than the occasion called for. He was satisfied, that , cedent or usage. Ile deprecated the p ractice of re- • succession, would not his motion hove been, rejected, employed on a subject most ,gratefel to all their ; the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair had not, ; ferring to Mr. llatsell's book, as a text book, on with indignation, and himself exposed to the ex. 'knits, so well deserved—he might even overlook !ip the conduct which he had pursued, been Rettl• ' which constitutional statesmen were to frame their treme censure of the House ?—The misrepresentae the observations on the new financial arrangesaaeate e ;eted by any improper motive, but had been be- 1 proceedings, and their views of Parliamentary con- Cons of both majority and minority of the House ip ohich, the Right Hon. Gent. seemed to think, would frayed by his zeal, beyond what his duty to the ' duct. Were they to he measured by the opinions peered quite uncalled for. Nothing in the Money produce effects even beyond the compsfehension of i House and the country warranted ; and therefore it ! and labours of a clerk in Parliament, however ass i- Bill cocld re q uire it. When the Speaker dwelt on the Chancellor. of the Exchequer, or of any other was, that lee (Mr. Grant) was desirous of comiticto I doom and meritorious? However, as to general pre- the services of our great Commander, on the hard. of his Majesty's Ministers.—[A lattgh.]—But, ' some vote which would prevent that conduct from : cedent, the look did nothing in this case. It said, fought battle of the Douro, on the victory of Vi a, 'bon be considered that part of the speech, which ' being drawn into a precedent in future.—The .Ca- ' that the Speaker might touch upon other topics ; but • miera, and so forth, who did not echo hack his sen bid occasioned the present discussion, 'he found thotic Question had not, on this occasion, been said nothing of pending or rejected measures. No timents with joy and pride ?—Every lush heart ex o hat he never could conceive to he any thing but a . touched upon ; in fact, it had nothing to do with authorities on these points had been produced, after ulted with peeuliar rapture in recollecting that his direct violation of duty, and which, therefore, de- the subject under discussion. But lie solemnly de. all the researches of the Speaker, so well qualified , country gave birth to that illustrious man !—But served the severest ceusure. As the Right Hon. ' dared, however attached he mie„ht be to that great for that object, and of the numerotts friends who ' was that exactly the moment to be selected for pro. Gent. had expressed some dissatisfaction, because a and important topic, that if the to cottenunication the surrounded him. In this case, the measure alluded nouncing at the Bar of the House of Lords, and direct resolution en' not moved on the present oc- Throne had been directly the reverse of what it was, .to was an unfinished one. W!sat had peesed on the before the Throne, the doom of those Catholic., the cxsion, fir (Mr. Whitbread) would now submit one, be should have come to the same vote, from a con- subject ? A resoletion of the House : a Committee. sluices of whose hearts blood had been opehe I to sic an antendinent, which, he believed, was couched • viction, that unless the constitutional privileges of appointed, whir,' met, and framed a resolution, , pour it forth for the gaining of those splendid victo. in terms sufficiently direct. Ile then moved— ! the house were preserved, the freedom of discus- I. which was adopt el. All that passed %se; in favour' ries ? — lt had been a R oman custom to introduce a • •' 1 . 5:.t all the word-, atter the word ' Th•o,' he e.,i;terl, shin, to w hick they had hitherto attached so, much': of the measure ; but the Speaker passed eref o all he slave in a triumphant procession. Here, while the fee the vorpette of intronoring—lt appears to flit, Ilcv.e. tle it importance, would be completely sncrified.—[Hear I had aright to know, and resorted to licit w Inch, es Speaker wets eller:elating the head of the conqueror Mr. Spetii.er slid, at the riot- of Cm la,t Ses•ien. at the bar of 1 The CHANCELLOR of the EX.CHEQUERtaid, Speaker, he had no right to know, anal had acted with merited laurels, those who shed their blood in tae Home of Lords, communicate to his Royal IligenetA the . no man was more jealous of the interference of the' upon it as Speaker, with hostility to the ineasere. achieving conquests were to be the only persons who Prince Regent, cer,ont P"'""i'r of This 11''''''', h a rt in " ' Crown with the privileges of Parliament than he What instance cnuld be given of a Speaker's corn- ; were not to share by . the profits of success in the rights shiwinitter of ille whale Hou , e,rehtive to his Itlaje,t)'s Roition ! was ; but notwithseanding all that had been said, he menting upon the unreported proceedings of a Com- of citizens. It had been much better had the topic Cieeshie subject; weed, dil not iertninate io any act done by' was disposes! to think, upon the authority of the , mittee of the House a Commons ? He could be no been entirely omitted. ''tic iteuse ; aid did 'Odious uii rte ) e'iliiii;l4l,(o4 , .o% ,, ,ives eel rensocs 14:;ich he pneumee stunted the Members in the 1 long course of precedents which had been cited, • more competent to do so than any other Member, t Mr. CANNING was one of the 247, and ho p ed . woceedingl they monk ; whereby be was KIWI yof a siolation of 'elle the proceeding at ttre-Bao of the Hawse of ew 4 *Miter he were in the Committee or were 'not. 'to take part Agate ivith Ms Leaned Friend. in pro the trust reposed in him, and a breach of the priviteets of this Lords, at the conclusion of the last Session, if fairly t He needed not to have been insist all, had he so motive what he considered only temporarily suspend.. Dome, of which be is the 11105ClI 5 unnlian and protector." ' considered, was fully justified; and he felt little chosen ; bur he was An, and in the Comm i ttee' ed. Though di ff ering with the majority in the Cora- Mr. . CREEVEY seconded the amen d m ent. doubt that the majority of the House would coincide ,he g av e h i s opinion in an eloquent speech, as a m ittee, he could agree neither to the original motion Mr. BA NEES replied to the observations of the in that opinion. ! Member for the Unieersity of Oxford ; but that of indirect, nor to the amendment for direct censure'. last speaker, and defetaled the precedents e ehich had I • Mr. PLUNKETT meant not to take up much , was not the opinion of the Speaker of the House The discretion of the Speaker, wisely vested in him been urged by the Right Hon. Gent. (the Speaker), time, the subject having been so ably argued by an !of Commons. One Honourable Gentleman had or not, had not been disprovedovhich took away most whosetinty it always was to render a sort of account ! Hon. Gent. below him (Mr. Grant), who had done l looked at all this as a mere question of form ; of the erintinating part of the charge. Thaloption to the Socerelett of the proceedings of flee House. iit ample justice, and had anticipated most of what he 1 butlorms were essential to the privileees of t h eh of either motien Would be a degradation of the In &doges+, it was cempetent for liim to embrace ;thy i had to say : yet, feeling as he did, he could notgive House. Supposing the'Speaker to have been t Speaker. Discietion m'ght he ra rcised injudicioush ~ topics, whether of a foreign or domestic nature, : a silent vote. lie agreed_ that this question did not ; betty to make his genet:Al, remarks, ye lee must con- hut that ought not to draw don n this censure upon lies. .whirls had occupied the attention of Parliament.-- ,' connect itself with that of the Catholic Claims, . ceive that h oe speech Ins not certainly a wilful mis- head. The motion did not go f a enough for its oh. [Hear, hear !] ' which might be right or wrong. It was, whether the . representatit, but Vet absolutely a titisreoteseneatiou ject,hs it yet left open the pi i% ilege upon matters not • Mr. WYNNE entirely differed from the last House had come to any t2solution which authorised ;of rase sentiments even of the Committee- MI that rejected which embraced a wide field of remark.-- speaker, and conteutled against the diccretinieary the Speaker to criminate or censure the conduct of its ! passed in the Committee was, t ae, rapt specific meaaure . The arguments went to the leegth of pi eventin any power with which the Speaker was said to he love t- Members : He was perfectly consistent in this point ;t i was rejected on the specific uies. The other speech not particulatly authorised. As to the Crown's ed. The lion. Gentlemen took a long and able re- for had the Speaker been decidedly favourable to the I important parts of the Bill were never 'eressed for ereinterfnce, . a re.oluticn passed in the previous view of the history of Parliamentary precedents, anti Catholics, and had so expressed himseif, he should I farther discussion : set the Speaker indelged, in an oas snit to . tile Thro ie, stating the intention stated a case ire is hid, a message had been smut by the have coesidereil his conduct at the Bar ofaddress th the Throne, in his sereeses sated sussees- of iherliameni to exnmitte the subject ; so that the Kin. to the House ef Commotts, informing them that Lords equally unconstitutional. It was true that ; (ions, and opinions of his s nse of ' the Speaker was not the first informant of thediscussions ss one of their N:crelves he his phee intimated his vos- the present was root a party, or a personal goes- 1 House. The circemstances were clear, that those c urlin g on stated the tesult of l upin ad been dime, at:- seism of jam ;station retative to the Court-murtial lion. ?lone could lie justified in voting a mo- I who opposed a part of the measure in the Committee . to his judgment of the ons of the Hoese. upon Admiral Bre , . and desiring the attendanee of i tion of censure on the Seeaker's conduct, except : were actuated by vnrious and different reasons.— This judgment was c ertainlyein different from whet he that Member. Sit ueprecedented did this nieterge I those who acted wider .1. sense of strong and impe- 1 Some for reasons that were local ; some on account should have given. cined to the opinion-of a appear to the house, in the view of the King's knots- i rious duty. Yet if any matt felt, that by the conduct of the alleged intemperance of the Catholics, anti for Gentleman on the other side (Mr. Grant); but it I • S ledge of that which occurred within their walls, that ! of the Speaker, the vital principles of te constitu- i the absent wrififtes which they had distributed; somee would be peculiarly - bard cm an individual so generally it wt.:l at once rejected, and Mr. Secretary Pitt, afer- ! tion of Parliament were assailed, by alt precedent 1 because they thought the times not Suited toehis met- esteemed for his services, to visit on hi? occidental arts Lord Chatham, with dilliculty silenced the l which would overturn the freedom of Parliamentary sure, thinking a period of p t prefeiablefoteuch a speech all the vice,: of the institution. The Noble clamour and alarm which the application created. I discussion ;if any man felt this, and yet, Irons per- discussion ; some, because they thought a revices Lord would leave the Speaker with many tieclipped Mr. ROSE adduced several precedents iii defence I sonal respect, or freer the enjoyment of a triumph . consultation and understend ngith the cou4l Coast ; the : Better go sir pristtege.V, the fu ehrel no .gui teegt de , iandn others that hu he h hshall is ni7l. seen. of the Speaker's conduct, and contended , t hat if the : in favour of his own opinions : on the Catholic guess 'So of gem Necessary. How, %n then, ll h say duties he had been accustomed to perform were nor- ! tion, voted against the motion, he would say, that, e d er vulture to state what was else opinions and to the Crovra at of the. fiouse, as he would to Rte. rowed, they v% o uld he so by no means beneficially for no words were too strong to express the meanness ' • '""•''... which o a st It majority . Not ten' Mem- Crown . in the-Heuse, as a serVant of the House, their future preceedir%s. of such conduct. . He himself considered the speech ! bell:, perhaps, agreed, and yet he took upon himself without eyes, ears, or tongue, for any other per- Mr. DOUGLAS argued generally against the mo- l of the Speaker, as one of the most formidable at-.: to .si i gn motives to ehe whole. The Mrinber pose. Mr. C. u.Sed a variety of illuetrations to show Grit nlyersity had a right ho complaie ea - thee the hardship nntl impreprieey of censuring the Lion, and deprecated warmly any vote oi censure .tacks that had been made upon the freedom of Pare' . for, in his speech in the Committee, he , Speaker.—Finrn the majority, on that important d w !lice might mix 44 the public Titled a matt, who, by I liament since the Revolution. Ile felt that the ittjury the upright and manly discharge of his duties, had I was greatly aggravated by its comieg from &lee': 1 11 ~.;at amity powers mightentrusted . to . the question he . differed ott widely as possible, and be obtained the esteem of all, with the only person ! waS the natural and chosen guard:au ot s tbe sigbts of 1. . ' cs, without their renunciation of the-Papal • ceiticided- th opinion with his . Right Hon. .and, horn a similar vote had been before passed ' the Commons. lt felt on the llostirw, • ith pe6iiari horrty.( The Magistracy, for instance, With air; Learited Friend,. who teethed forward to the accost.. f-1 • - . . 2-: tb- '1 l ' in ." nkyL the army, too, even up to the o ffi ce o f '; of that great measure, at no H ver e ay ll diiowettent ' -d, , . . . Cwotsmander in Chief. Was not that powir, and no ionbcent este, in suspicious hands? Many of the ma- ' jority °floor thought it a religious question; would not they complain when the Speaker treated it only has political? Would a Learned Doctor (Duigenan) and bis friends disrobe themselves of all the dig-: city of their religious objection's? Would Met ~say, that lien after renouncing the ofreosiite au.. thority of .the Pope, .that Catholics. shoat& take places, while they believed transubstantiation,. invoked saints, and attended mass? that they could come to thstO House, and legislate, consistently With laws And !Institution fundamentally Protestant ?: The Speaker hid misrepresented his own of ittiotii and that of the majority : but he never mentioned that, notwithstanding all temporary difficulties, 247 1 Membed had declared the Catholics admissible on the specific securities of the Bill. Would any man put his hind on his heart„ . and say, upon his honour, that he believed the majoAty of four, to pot the question finally to rest ? *Evidently it must come back again. The measure was unfinished ; but, how was it to b pursued, if opposed by Royal artillery 1 on its ma It ? if the Speaker were justifiable, so sight the ions be t in its relarifs. Suppose the against w, an - _ for gloss and foul corruption. . . 1 sererity, since they could not assert their rights - , wit. Mr. WYNN"); and Mr. ROSE explained. '. • t out, 'in the person of their Speaker, impairing their 'Sir JOHN NIMPORT said, that in the consi. I dignity.. Subject to the proper limits of the case, aeration of eke question before the House, the prim- i he should make his remarks with freedom from re-' cipal object in view was to guard the future delibera- 1 him self a n d d with as ample latitude no doubt, Mr. Speaker tions of the Hoes, from the exercise of an in fl uence 1 ha used, conscientiously, in his on the part of the Crown greater than it ought to have, I address to the . throne. There was no question on ; consistent with the Constitution cf the country. It i which the House had aistrays -manifested .more jets.. i seemed to be admitted on all hands, that the course 1 lousy than that of their privileges : the instances ~. pursued by the ;raker, at the conclusion of the ion this subject were too numerous and well t last Session, was uithout precedent, either on the I known to be quoted. Some communication between; Journals of that or the other House of aament, 1 the Commons and the Throne there must be ; although it had been attempted to be u rg ed that al the mode and manner of it were perfectly defined.' precedent was to be found in the conlict of the i If the throne wished to communicate to Parliament ! Speaker of the Irish House of Commons. He de- it did so either by . a.speech, or by a message. Id - nied that the line adopted by Mr. .Foster bore out either case, it was to invite deliberation, never to . the inference which Members had endeavoured to interfere in, or to coutrqul it. If Parliament wish draw from it that night—for upon coupling the add o ommunicate, then it . proceeded , either by an terms of that Gentleman's speech delivered to . the resv, er by,resolutions to be conveyed to the Throne ) with the events which follow e d in the ease- Throne; and the' ly were never to ask, but always to ' lug S(islots, it woald be seen that the House did .-give advice or info-rotation •to the Crown. For t not go tilos% witlOsim in the sentiments which he though Parliament were the advl9er of the Crown, totem!, hut brought in a Bill for giving the elec- the Crown was not the adviser of ParlianTent. Were . five franchise to those very persons from whom, the Crown so, there would be too nisch of the kir of , he congratulated the Crown, it had .been with- command. Beside these, there were no channels of .i.p!d; :44s 'that, in fact ) the whole transaction in communicatiou, but in the case of the Speaker's ~'y perink-w • ,pride and Conideace. atiewea, that the state of the country, lest Session, was Such as might have been the means of defeating that mea sure ; but events recently;passed had so changed the - .circumstances Which then existed, that, when the Bill was next brought forward, he had no doubt of its 'meeting with complete yuccess. He, therefore, could wotjoin in any . moti6lF which was to c:*IL !he ,SpPaker. to acticietil for the exercise of a discretion actipairvested in hien by the loran and usage of the house., • - Mr. TIEttNkV said, that ifter the very ample and eloquent discussion wiLlet this subject had re ceived, he would have been glad not to have troubled the House with any further observations; but he could not prevail on himself to give a silent vote, especially after the most extraonlinary speech which had just been delivered by the Right Ron. Gent. on the floor. lie who had been one of the most eloquent of those who had advocated the Bill in favour of the claims of the C,tholics, hi the must surprising and contradictory manner now stood foremost in defend ing the conduct of that person, who had by his speech at the bar of the House of Lords, stigmatised the whole of the supporters of that Bill as eaeasies • 1 . t- Nrk. : *,,_r ~ •. r ~. . :- : _ I;