The Statesman. — London, England, 1820-06-20 00:00:00

I.VPEIiI.II, PAeLI.I.NE.V7. DOUSE OF LORDS. MusD JL NI 19. I°le House proceeded in Appeals. i'he 4Etths were administered to the Marquis of i I.•r. the girl lirey anti Lord Donlis, p •.ition was presented by !be girl of Siterrtri,i), Merchants trading to the British North Ameri ie4 against any alteration in the Ditties on T.,' *hce.—Orilerril to be referred to the Committee on . . pe - ition was presented by the Martini: of Lois -1,0 N. from persons confined for Contempt of Court, praciufi to be relined under the Insolvent .it. His Luril,hip observed, that these persons consisted of two Id‘M *4- -those who were confined for contumacy. and those who uierely remained in prison because they were %nat.!, to pay crrtuin PIII/IS of nioacy. To the latter I. lie trusted relief would be extuniled in the same A s to other Insolvent l'ebtors. Petition ordered hi he ilium the Table, as were also a petition from Ile.cli.ents and Tradesmen of Westminster, for the in so.i 'ion of certain clauses in the Insolvent Debtors' Act (which the Nohle Marquis oho presented the per:tion said, lie !wilts...ll, hail already been done), and a petition from Wales, respecting improvements in the Jndiraturr. he Loan Bill and some other Bills were brought up Rom the Douse of Commons by 3lr. Fltogilen, Mr. Wortley, Mr. l'orbett, Mr. Denison and other 31eutbers, •“ I read a tir , t time. The commitment of the Scotch Peers' Right of WA % on the motion of the Earl of Rona n icI:Y, postponed till to-morrow se'nnight. The Flax and l'ottion Bill. and It • other Rills, through ('omwitters, and tsrrr reported without .k socittiment. TIIE QUEEN. 'far Earl of Livilaroot..—My Lords, upon several e.“ions I have of late had to move your Lordships t•• postpone the meeting of the Secret Committee ap pointed, in pursuance of his Majesty's Message, res. p-eting charges of which we are all aware, on the ..wool that discussion and explanations were going •••,. pending whirl) it would not be expedient to enter the consideration of the papers romusimicateil t. uo the Crown. It is with regret I have now to state, ti contrary to the expectation entertained, at least :• 3 time, by myself and by others, and 1 may sa) nerally by bet!' Houses of Parliament and the routs ' that discussion and those explanations have failed ii producing the desired result, and (laying upon the t.,bl.- a bundle of papers) I am commanded by Isis Maje-ty to lay these papers upon the table, contain the details of that negotiation. As in all cases papers arr laid upon the table by command of th • I . rown, they are in a course of printing, and they still he ready for delivering to the Members of the lloase to-morrow morning. Your I.ordshirs are as are Ciao the meeting of the Secret Committee, to whom t:.e papers communicated by his Majesty's Message ;re inferred, stands fixed for to-morrow, hut as Limes, and candour, Noble Lords ought to have an Ippoituaity of considering the papers I have now laid ti.:on the table, previous to the-sneetiug of the Secret l'ilisaiittre, in order that they may be enabled to judge !i ct her there is any thing in these papers that ought to ineuence them, either in still further postponing the vv:cting of the Committee, or in adhering to their ori g:::ai vote, or in any other manner. I therefore now wave, that the Order for the meeting of the Secret Com • to-morrow, be discharged, and that the Secret 4 olimitte.• du, instead thereof, meet on-Friday. This motion was put to the vote and agreed to. The Marquis of LA NS DOWN .•••••I wish to ask the No ble Earl, whether it is his intention to found an y ♦ pro ceeding upon the papers which lie has just laid upon Cie tabi.e by coraisand of his Majesty ? The Earl of Livearoot..—l have no difficulty, my lAnds. in saying that it is not my intention to fonnil • ) fir:weeding upon these papers. It will be for y.tui Lordship. to judge of their contents, and it n ill ho conspeteat for any Noble Lord to make any motion respecting them that be shall deem expedient, or any tuotian as to the further proceeding or not of the Se cud C uninitter. Marquis of LAysnowx.--1f I understand the Noble Karl he does not mean to found any proceeding •, ,sn these papers; hut it surely must follow, from the con.luct of the Noble Earl upon this point, that his opinion is made up, that the consideration of these wirers will form no ground for farther postponing the meeting of the Secret Committee. Ihe Earl of Ltrsoroot..—My Lords, I have deli vered no such opinion, nor do I mean to do it. It will be for your Lordships to consider, whether there is asy thing in these papers that ought to have the effect or "not, of further postponing the meeting of the rinntuittee. The Earl (taxv.—l cannot avoid, my Lords, in. trading upon your Lordships a few obser :diens upon the very exttaordinary and unprecedented course of proceeding which has been resorted to with regard to if& owe by his Majesty's Ministers. They, in the first instance, brought down a Message from the King, making certain charges against her Majesty, the Queen (',abort. The papers communicated with the Royal Me#Asge, his Majesty's Ministers move to refer to a Sec oft Committee. and it is clear• that they had not then lti rnntdliiplatiun any delay in the meeting of that Setif.* Committee. What circumstances subsequently hAppned, we are not permitted to know in any autho rised sh ; but there can be no doubt, nor was•it scrupled to ape be stated, that the delay afterwards pro rewsi witk regard to the meeting, is to be attributed to Coe course of proceeding adopted by the House of c.mitoons ; n mode of acting which is certainly di redly contrary to that which has always hitherto been the ;Idea this House, which never permitted itself to b. in any way governed by the proceedings of any assembly. We are mow, however, informed by a Communication from the Crown, with an expression of regret, that She segaciation which 'volt commenced :•nhoequent ta the origiaal Message has failed, and the Yore extraordinary proceeding has been resorted to of Cor , twing down a number of papers upon the table for the Huta to du what they please with, but with an intimation that no preteeeding is intended to be founded upOn theft Jsy kisMajesty's Ministers. This, 1 dodo. lair, unpreeedentad, It being the constant 1 whore any causaannications are specially wade - two Huttses , nient, anal this is roam' which( k Welters sp.. -Lordships to resist- It is, indeed, oonsistest w.ih r whole conduct, of which it has been the uniform* 4. ject to throw off responsibility, wherever they possibly could, upon Parliament: bat it remains for Parliament' brolly to resist a course of conduct which is so utterly Inconsistent with what ;night to be the conduct of re sponsible Ministers Of the Crown. It is for them to eay what is the proceeding they propose to institute, and not to throw upon this I louse the task of consider ing what is the course that ought to be pursued. His Majesty's Ministers must have made up their minds as to the contents of these papers, anal as to their effect, with a view to the proreeding or not of the Secret Committee, anal undonlitediy the more manly and Feet course for them to pursue would he to say at once what they propose and what they mean. As it is, we are left completely in the dark, the Secret Committee is postponed will t any avowed abject, and the whole conduct of Ministers leads only to lower the digoltr and character of this House, and place it in a situation 1111411plerial highly disgraceful. hnv.—My Lords, after what has been slid by the Noble Earl, I feel it incumbeat upon lime to alhirrSa a few words to your Lordships upon the siihjrct which now occupies your attention. To the charge, of this proceeding bring unprecedented, my colleagues and myself must plead guilty, if it ran be shown that there is any precedent of a similar rise. Hut when it is known, as it must be, that Ministers could derive no light from precedent (there being none of any similar case), stilt only sumo small gr •rings from analogy, it is -itrely too much to stigmatise the proceeding as unprecei!enivil, as if it weir a grievous charge against the 3Liiisters of the (*town, that they have no precedent to folliaw. In this point of view, the oti!v proper course that they t)oug,ht themselves justified in adopting, was to advise his 3lNjesty to consult both flimsy.% of Parliament, as to the proceed ing that ou g ht to be adopted. Anil it surely ought not to be matter of objecti )))) iu this I louse, the blvinhers of which are the hereditary councillors of the Crown, or, in the other llonsc, the Members of Which are noire peculiarly the representatives of the people, that their ;silt ire is as: by the Crown, as to a proceeding so entirely novel in the history of the country. 'the Noble Earl, who says that the postponement of the meeting of the Secret Committee was urged on the Krona,' of n bat occurred in another Once, will allow inc to .ay, that he was out presets( during the former proceedings regarding this .object, and that that was no: the gru 44444 I upon which the postponenieut took place, it being distinct.ly stated by my Noble Prised, that discussion and explanali.oi were proceeding, and that therefore it became expciiient to postpone the meeting of the Secret Committee. That this negotia tion has failed, is matter of regret to all, hot surely, under such circumstances, the only course to he adopted, is that which has hero pursued, to ttttt tined eate to Parliament tbe result of that negoldaticn, aisl4 leave it to them I. say. whetter is revokes any pro— reeding to he adopted with regard to the uteetieg or not of the Secret Committee as originally deterudeed upon. Lord IlioAsso.--It appears to me, my Lords, that when the Noble Earl who has just down, seems to triumph in the idea, in answer to my Noble Friend, that there is no precedent for suds a Cafe as the pre sent, lie forgets that it is not exactly the form of a precedent that is to he looked to, but the reason of the thing. Beason, then, study require. that the re sponsible Ministers of the Crown should be ready to state to Parliament. ni their responsibility, what course of proceeding they deem it expedient should be adopted, and not that they •honld endeavour to shift and shuffle off that responsibility upon Parliament it self. What has been the consequence of this vacillat ing polity of the Ministere ?—that this Honer, I must say with my Noble Friend, has been ;dared in a dis graceful situation. We were told that our dimity re qnited that we should complete our proceeding by nominating the Secret Committee; hot what, after the repeated postponements of the meeting of that Com mittee, becomes of our dignity now ? The Noble Earl who has just sat down, has said that the postponement of the meeting of the Committee was not in enlisequence of the poweedinp in the Hotter of C ors ; hut what are the facts? On the second day of this proceeding, a Noble Baron took the manly and direct course of moving to post pone the ballot till- the Cotnniittee, on the express ground of what had weltered in the interval (name ly, in the Mouse of Commons), tending to excite a hope of conciliation, and what did the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Councils say ? That he had no information 1111011 the subject, that he did not be lieve there was any prospect of conciliation ; and yet the Noble Earl proposed to postpone the mealy of the Committee; whirls postponement cause, in fact, to the saner point as the motion of the Noble Baron. 'Io what then are we to attribute the postponement, ex cept to the krii or ledge of what had passed in the !louse of C mons, and the wish to await for the further pro ceeding of that Mouse ? to any argument of not allowing the contents of the papers in the mean time to be known to the Secret Committee, it is quite ab surd; becanse the ballot has placed six Lords upon that Committee, who, being part of the Administra tion. must l o ne previously knowu all the contents of them ; and see. my Lords, to wind suspicion time con duct of Ministers upon this occasion leads. compared with their conduct upon other occasions. When we have haul tireen Bags against the people there has been no delicacy on the part of Ministers in statiag at once all the contents of the papers, though sealed up in a bag. and anticipating all the strong moNsures that it has been pretended were rendered necessary by the disclosures thus made. But here we hay, a Omen Bag; about the contents of which the utmost reserve mid delicacy are to he observed; nut • word is to be disclosed of them, and the Mouse is to be placed in the singular situation of entailing, as it were, its owe de cision of appointing a Committee to roasider the cam tents of a Bag, and thee refusing to unseal the Bag, thus keeping the Committee like Jndges atiarea44 in air, waiting for the vase that Is to'lle. laid before them.. The whole of -ibis- proceediep I. it:Met - tap k .0 upon the subject, at the Noble Ea►l on the other side, un the _.one-sloy of this proceeding, for postponing the meeting of the Committee ; and we t.erefore still come to this, notwithstanding what bas bent said about the dignity bf the House, that our conduct was in fact go-. vented by the proceedings of the Hunse of Commons. The Earl of llianowne, in explanation, denied that the proceedings of the House of Commons had any influence upon the postponement of the meeting of the Committee, which arose from the impression that an opening ought to be left for couriliation. The Earl Of DARSLUT maintained that not the slightest reason appeared from any thing that passed it, the interval, between the first and second day of this proceening, for postponing the meeting of the Committee, except what had passed in the House of Commons; and this, he contended, whatever might be, said on the other side, was the real reason fur the post ponement; and that the object of the further post ponement now woos, still to wait to see what course the House of Commons would i erne. The Karl of 1. 1 0 re,(11., in explanation. contended that it appeared to be the general wish, evt•n OS aims first day of this procredinr, that mesons should he lou nil , if possible, to avoid the painful necessity of carrying un this investigation. As to what he said, regarding the prospect of conciliation, on the second day's proceedings, he eenied that his wor:11 here the import Attributed to them by the Noble Baron on the o•hcr side, namely, that he -aid there was no prospect of (.m1..0661,11; all he conveyed was, that he load no special information to groom! any opinion upon the subject. The Earl Gary, in explanation with regard to pre cedent, obser%ed, that hr never meant to say there was any precedent of a case like the present, but what be meant to contend was—that there was au precedent of any papers I ...oininnicated to the House from the Crown, referring to and pending any proceeding be fore the Ilan-e, upon %%hid, snug proceeding was not founded he the Ministers of the Crown. The Earl of DARNULY repeated his former o'iection to the course of proceeding. _ Lord Hett.t,asti, in explanation. stated that the ground of his ohjecti ~,, was, that the Noble Earl had laid papers before the House without giA ing them any reason to suppose to what conclusion they might lead. Lord Darer: oh 4, that the objections of the Noble 3larsois (Lanstiosto) on a former night were directed against the concurrence of the proceedings in both Huuses. Ile himself then thought, end he was of the same opinion still. that great ditliculty nun'd be found to arise frosts such a male of prureeding ; for though a Nuble Lord of high legal authority had given a di s tinct opit i i iiii on the suhjert, it was illipols , !Whir to say whether the House of l'outisions might nut litter from him, and whether, while their Lurilships resolved to proceed iu one way, the ilouse of Com iiiii ns might not proceed in another. Hut the object he had _ _ its rising was this—to know from his Majesty's Muria /4es, what eirece the papers now had before the Now might be exp►cted to have according to their view of them. the Noble Karl, he thought, was bound to state his view, and then the Committee might proceed as was intended to-morrow. lie Intel by the art of lay ing the papers before the House expressed, though not avowed, an op' •o n, that they c.mtained matter upon, which the judgment of the Home ought to be pro nounced ; it was therefore that he wished to know his opinion as to the result they were likely to have. He wished also to know from the Noble Earl, wheoher those papers contained merely the correspondence of last week, or whether they also embraced any previous correspondence, or communications upon which that correspondence w•as founded. The Earl of litviairooot. said, that the usual way of answering . such a question was, to desire that the list of papers should he read. The Clerk was about to read the list, when Lord HoLLE reminded the House that the question of adjournment was before thrum. Lord HOLLAND said be should move that ►he papers be read, in order to see if it was proper that they should agree to the adjoin unseat. The Earl of LI vaaruoi. observed that the questions were distinct. Lord HOLLAND maintained the right of any Peer to call for the trailing of papers lying on the toile which might have a connection with the questi on in debate-- the reading of an Act of Parliament fur instance. _ _ Earl Seines* said, there was tau question regularly before the House, but the Noble Earl haying laid papers on the table by the command of his Majesty, whirl] must come shortly under consideraf , the re pilaw way was to read the whole of the papers. Not one of their Lordships, with the exception of Minis ters, knew what they cootained, so that he themaght that .the-tiNes might at lenet be read: -- • • Lord Hou.s said, that if the sense of the House was against his motion he certainly should not press it. He had moved it on perceiving that thbre was no ques. tioa before the House. The Loan eillAkcELLnit said, the only motion before them was the question of adjournment. flow' fat the speeches which theit Lordships had heard bore ally reference to that question, it was for the House itself to decide, but for his otra part, be should say that he was not able to diseoerr any. Atty Noble Lord might introduce topics', the application of which it *amid be dillealt Ni see until he bad made it himself. '1 he MR' thew read the Mira of !hp papi.rs,,yrkicit were as follow t— I; 1. A Copy Of orLetter tram her Majeat3 l &Qum* fo'firia Earl of Liverpool, dated the 9th. 3. A I,:opy of his Lordahipl mower. of the mug date. 3. A Copy of a Letter from ths Queen to the Made Liver- pool, dated 140 10th. es A Copy of bis Lordship's answer, dated the 11. A Copv of a teetertWou **Queen to the lbsillsi fine pool. datodtheillb 4 A Copy of hb Loodship's assurer. dated *0 WM. ma compante‘frith o,lg!te to ha Majesty's law wilvber, Mr. Brush gka m. • 7. A. Calm of Mr. BrowAhare mow* fd tk Part of Li verpool. relative to the oppoilltmeat ofierbitaltdre. R; l 4 = 6 _ l ;,_ t h° Irsellrow at Mk Jamas'irmisuato. 91 MO settling goataremie et M. James 10. protl . a/ the Mini 40110fewleest 11. Pmta oniwFbasrth eoeferraee at Ift., le. Mo ue! Seth Seth estaherseta at Me r an The Karl of 1.4.11,11110AL1 wished to %mow whether' w is the intention of Ministers to lay before t h e any previous communirations on the same Ni l . The House had been told, at an early o ak , of proceedings, that the utmost efforts had b ets and now papers were brought disse a o uch ought in justice to contain all that had passel. t• •• try it maxim, which even, day's experience that those who judged on a partial view nsustjna p perfectly, see that if any thing bad N ise i use, cedently to the papers now eiminotnicated, it was 44 ish and vain to think of arriving at any correct d eter ruination un those imperfect documents. The Nec k must have the whole of the information heron. it i s order to come to a right opinion. The Noble 14 3 j had seen the whole, and was c:ep lisle of reconsmea s li a • Mme proceeding. They had only seen a detach; part, and were consequently incapable of judging i s any proceeding. The Earl of Lirgneotot. said a few words in a let tone of voice, in which we understood him to stab, that there was hut one paper of d:ete anterior N ti, 9th, and that he should feel no difficulty in comm. Meeting it. Lord ENAKIN C.—My Lords, another difficulty has occurred to use this moment sin the subject of ffin, papers, on hearing the titles if them read. Thera , - pear to be the minutes of the n..gotiations whiehboi, taken place between his Majeey's Ministers and lit Queen, to avert, if possible. any public proms/din t , but with which, fur the plainest reason in the worlii, it is most elation, we can have nothing at all to cis. The case is shortly this :---The Noble Earl, by tie King's command, laid upon the table papers contais• lint elsarges of a heinous but highly delicate nature agaistst her Majesty, and desired our counsel ea tie subject, i. c. whether any and what proceeding might to be taken upon them, and fur that purpose we pointed a Secret Committee to examine them, arida day was appointed for its meeting, but which tras postponed with general consent, on some prosper!, though unknown to as, of au arrangement which would render any inquiry unnecessary, and now the Noble Earl lays this negotiation before us., obvious's, though no distinct questioo is put upon it, we a k oar advice as to whether it should put an end to the in quiry, or justify Its going on. And hew ran se p— ale judge of this? I take it for granted that the papers rontaiu the expectations or demands, an one side or the other, for ending all differences; but her 0111 we judge of the reasonableness of the one ors{ the other, without knowing how they stand in 'mists . fart lf, instead of being in Parliament. her Majost die Queen had consulted use, and said she ha& bedlam' •112 al' her rights of coming t o , or going from tkip vomit ry, and of being restored to the Liturgy, I Awn slower, that I crud; give no advice, without know* Whether there was any, and what proof of miscoasiut against her; and I must make the same answer to for King; and how can I properly, whilst in thiSitsie if ignorance, ist• asked any opinion by Ministers, els know the whole case? Let it not be thought that I toy this from a desire of investigation ;I wilds either but to Jo my duty, presunaiog hummisee 1111 gains established. As to the propriety or Glom of apple lug a Secret Committee, it cannot now be the genie We have already appointed one. fill half dunghill Illegal or uneonstitational I should have *poi; but 1 thought at the tone, and still tbiak,orhenrio, because it is to exassise Whether there be say raft fur Parliament to proceed upon. which is in bar Ih. jestv's favour, and nut to proceed against her oar* since the proceedings, if determined on, most hops'. lie ; that, however, is beside the question, SS dlf House has given judgment; but with regard to Is papers, for the short reason I have given I sever till act on them ; Crum curiosity I may read them, WI will give auy opinion cone:ruing them. The House then ',gunned. HOUR} OF COMMONS. MONDAY, Jean IR new A new writ was ordered for the borough of Meek Geld. in the room of Lord Iluthans, who had nark kis ekction fur another place. Mr. F. Lewis laid on the table a petitko flume* veral freeholders of the county of Herb, praying tier proper 11121 e he allowed for tal.ing the poU before t► return be made. Lord 1101.:NTCUARLES gave notice, that oa tb,JS of Juno next, he should submit a motion to Oa House relative to the conduct of the Irish louder Excise, in nut making a return of papers pareellit. the orders of that House. air. WeirraaN laid on the table a petitioa flaw fir parishes of the county of Esse:. in favour of tirefda . chestet Sessions Bill. /I ILI T.% it V DISTURBANCE -48p' Nretaw observed, that it was his intention to bent asked 1 question of the Noble Secretary of War, Itad he bees in his place. As that Noble Lord was ablest, hr should beg to ask his Majesty's Judge .Adrecate tire saute question. lie (Lord Nugent) had horsed the _thelute_tlistutbutce, amongst a port* obi* lilidia Was attributed to i'he failure in issaiag a eerie= . a(alluwauee which was called .1 riot masey. 4 lotting that a very coualrieralrle allows," beih 10 101101 11 4 eild pay was made to soldiers, he mode tot we lAmfeet the propriety of any tractive's wises they zoo - spots for duty in ally service. 1-liat if Limy were ordered to march foe no such iseressed rate of allowsnee wee either or expected, by what rule 2114941 d it be grantee employed against their hdlowoitioens ? As s imporiaset questions stead foe disratesien that Await not enlarge epee the point at preemie. pdibutine hear her his. biejemy's Judge Advecoul. -kiwis 'hod heels the practice of the Otto-- alie.inereseed att..— ?"--ifirse) Mr. Santini' said he shook! be glad to give Noble lard a distinct answer, bat he was Doily able proses' to state, that each arnorgensents were . by the lieeretary at War. TIN -11,000,41011/. Amseity sad Watch and Bids wows read* *WIWI* and posed. DUNDALK. - -414 Writ was orierai borough of Desdalir, AM moo of J. Beat. wise. *we hisabontlens, isuipmil• Orr fiseitriorar a 1 Maiwart. • " Mr. Of. A..TiviLost oillitrve4, 4114 it Oa intention to tutored' that *Won a preresitioP Home relat es loin. malls* jarieillaties. ler the prersere of batidels be must defer it. 111110 P TI s/ ATV Sr fr t C • f• or • - 44 1 • . st cif thr ilwafe. lo the plea that an it W 3 l up t t .az rs ro I wn• it ii 1 . f s expressed that knot i•pering House .ertrieut o 'er t t Urowii. l iti Ito. 'be 1 Cr conciliation, it limit be in the reeol- jret. tikis-iastattre. to atteaseLla..ithULALL•wponsiklaity. Lesions sof roar isordships that soritintr was saisi-isy those 1 from their iri.o shou'olers to the two)junses,or auk Noble I.ord spun the subject, prey to the pro- made, r 41. I