The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-15 00:00:00

, 1 / 4 . - s ....-.. .1. 3=lll . in the House of Peers, in 1815, a discuseloa had tam place upon it, and he (Lord Castlereagh) had then bed an opportunity of stating the grounds of the forbeek ance of this dovernwent with respect to Austria, and the reasons then given had appeared perfectly satisfac tory to both Houses. Since that period an effort had been made to realise a part of the money ; but it bad not been a snccessfsil one. On the correspondence which took place en that occasion would be seen the grounds upon which Austria refused to comply. He did lidt mean to go into the merits of the question ; but several subsidiary arrangements had been made with Austria subsequent to this original one without the debt being brought nearer too settlement. He did not wish to he understood as throwing the blame on any one, but it Wit, a fact that arrearsof subsidy were made to Austria in 1795, without setting off the arrears of subsidy to the ounsteadiag d e bt. The Noble Lord , in conc lusion, re ve led his hope that the House would not go into a dis cussion of the merits of the question until the papers were prod reed . They were very vo luminous, and the House would see from these that there had been man diSculties in the way of settling these accounts with Austria. - Sir JOHN NEWPORT remarked, that the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) seemed to think, that be cause five yawl ago there bad been a discussion on this subject in another place, that was a satisfactory reason for not going into the question then. As his Hen. Friend who made this motion had said, what ever were the distresses of Austria formerly, that ar- Asuusent in her favor no longer existed, as by her own art she showed. With respect to the present motion before the House, there was not only question of a debt from Austria to this country, but one from that House to the country,which was, whether they should burden the country with fresh impositions, when there was 17 millions due to it? He certainly was surprised, when be considered that the first principle of the Holy Alliance was good faith, that this debt should now remain to be claimed. When the loan was made. Mc Pitt was so satisfied as to the solidity of the Aus trian faith, that he made one of the strongest assert:- _ ratio's on the subject in that !louse that had ever beet made. The Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castle resigh,) being heir to Mr. Pitt's power and principles, must take the incumbrances with the inheritance, and with his power and principles perform what he VW tanteed. Ile (Sir J. Newport) could not help recol lecting the soletnu phrophecy of Mr. Fox upon that occasion, that this loan, if made, would remain for ever a debt to this country. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that he bad never said that the discussion which had taken place in 1815, on this subject, was in any way calculated to do away the debt of Austria with this country, or the propriety of demanding it. The motion was then put and agreed to. ARMY ESTIMATES. Ou the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Exam oeut„ the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. The proposed vote in supply, of 01,468 men, for the lead forces of his Majesty, the consideration of w'aich bad been adjourned on a former evening, hav ing been read, Colonel MACDONALD rose to repeat the pledge be had gives on a former night to propose a reduction of 10,0181 men from the proposed amount of the army; and fivling, as be did, that the discussion which occurred tine other night, was most conclusive in support of that proposition, and . knowing that there were other Hon. embers. whose indefatigable industry ins these sub jects, entitled them to the hest attention of the House, were likely to address them, he felt that it would be bad taste is him to occupy much of their time. His con • Tidiest was that the case of the other side of the House, Nit was stated the other night, would not go to justify gore than 60,000 men. But be saw no reasonable ape . leigy for voting more than 71,000. lie did not mean in any way to letter or embarrass the Government as to the Immediate points upon which this reduction should be marleerhether in the new colonies, at borne, or in the • till oafs. But be hoped the Committee would see with him, that the time was come, when if it was really es . pedient to exact economy, the only way was to limit useless expenditure. Lest any one should suppose dela his proposition tended to leave the country with , mat an adequate force hi case of emergency, he would . . endeavour to make it so apparent to the contrary, as to send that person home to bed without apprehension. Supposing even that 30,000 men should be employed for the protection of the Colonies, that would leave this countty 50,000, including the Artillery corps; add to which 15,000 Veterans, which they had seen equipped in so short a period, and there would be a „toree 41f 65,000 disposable troops. Besides these, there were 20,400 Volunteers, which, with the addi tion of the Militia, world leave, in case of any internal sweetish) , a force of 200,1100 men to be called into use. 11* hoped this was a sufficient force to quiet the teasel toTthe most timid. The Right Honourable Gentleness • . opposite, at the head of the Woods and Forests, con . eluded his speech the other night by expatiating on the-necessity of this country keeping itself in a position •• 1 / 4 1%enable her to assert her dignity . It was for that • • eery purpose that Gentlemen on his (Colonel Mac '•' :4 1 t6sald's9 side pause House were labouring. It might - •he slid that so financial embarrassments could ever • the effect of vedeeing this grant nation to a state . • • “,,,secompatible with the assertion of its dignity. He was . • • "A IN to concur in this hope, and was convinced *, slosedf.ever it were reduced to such a state, it could Jealthe from the infatuation of a Government which . de/000w give the country an opportunity of recruit -InOs .energies a ft er the unparalleled struggle , iev l e iet.o4.llad beep engaged. He could not sit down imploripg the House to weigh well the gra ' ,atjerof the questiou they were called upon to decide. .4•Tlepikin. Member moved, That instead of $1,4614, • • ,listeerleid 71,648 land forces, &c. • r •11.. y lVIAN rose for the purpose of endeavour i_yee to point out to theCominittee the impracticability , •fil.. the • present state of our garrisons abroad, of re 4utskor She proposed vote of men. If the Committee • . seemed . to the Army Estimates, they would final that the number of roes which it was proposed to retain in ( ..eliamet Betels std Ireland was 49,630. If from those ....seen deducted the goat& and garrisons, viz. 17,821, v sad then, the ,adsorbs of 10,000 moved for by the ;..,.Ilosmoraklp giatkosaa, there would re ail this . • , rountry s n9..move this 10,809 disposable troops.— ~ (An Iloopewthlenembet observed across the table , ,that there womlll also ke the (herds). He (Sir H. Gnu& as disposable world then advert to the ""-•." oar stations abroad. Into several &co -1 a disposable force, it would take to 611 . _ 1 . ... 4. and dieeipifitp tern From foreign at; leg been nine years could only about three years at Inane before they must be tent abroad again. Would that he fair ? It was also necessary that we should he prepared fur any sudden emergency, Id order to strike an effectual blow at the enemy; and althoneh he was very ready to admit that the nary was the billwark of the country. he be lieved that foreign powers would be mach less likely to commit any aggressiou towards us if we were pre pared with troops to repel it. We ought always to he prepared to maintain the high station which we held among the nations of Europe ; and he trusted that Englishmen would never be altogether reduced to what Bonaparte had insultingly called them, " a nation of shop-keepers." Ile (Sir Il.Viviro) had always snpported the measures of the Noble Lord on the Treasury Bench, becanse those measures had always appeared to him to he calculated for the pub lic good. But the Noble Lord had better supporters in the House than he (Sir 11. V.) was. lie bail the support of the Hot t tttt ratile Meinher for Aberdeen — (Hear, and a laugh). Certain he was, that if that Honourable Member continued proceedings as he had commenveol the other evening, Ow result would be a powerful Actession o f ( t ieptls to the Noble Lord. Mr. MACDONALD explained. Mr. N. CA Li" ERT supported the amendment. There were three &dm:lions of considerable magni bole, which, in leis opinion, might be must advan tageously made. In the first place, he thought we might very beneficially divest ourselves of Gibraltar, which cost us half a milli in atilinally it( peace, and double that amount in war. Gibraltar had no har bour, it did not (as was frequently suppose I) command the entrance of the Mediterranean, and he was per suaded that we should he lunch better without it. In the second place, he thought tie might save a very considerable expense by getting rid of all cootie:don whatever wills the leatia et Isles. In the third place, he thought that we ttii;;ltt reduce half the household troops, and substitute an at toed police under the au thority of the civil tme( —4 means of prewrving pub lic order, which 1,01111011 Was the only capital iu gerope without. Mr. HUME expressrd his dissent from the last speaker, with respeet to Gibraltar and the Nolan Islands. He only deity" to see the latter c o lony forced to maintain itself. With reference to what had fallen from the lion. amyl II illant °firer opposite (Sir 11. Vivian) lie was ready to admit that lie was one of the Noble Lord's (Lord Castlereagh's) host friends ; and if the Noble Lord could only he sensible of it, and follow his advice, lie would place him beyond the reach of any harm.—(A laugh.)—As to what passed the other night, there must be blame on tine side or the other ; but it was • plan that the Honourable and Gallant Gentleman belonged to the unreason able party, and he (tlr. Hume) to the reasonable one.—(Laughter.)—One of the arguments of the Gallant Member against reducing the present esta blishment down to the standard of 17n7 or 1792, I was that in (how years we were in a state of perfect tranquillity and peace. Ile should like to know how the tiallanalencral could wake unt that we were not in this state in the year I tit2l. He said that they ought to he prepaidd to interfere in the state of Italy; but the Noble Lod (Lord Castlereails) had controverted this reason by saying that this could he no excuse for adding a mingle man to the army. The Gallant Gem•ral hail stated that I 7,U2 I wen of the ex isting military establishment were nut uaeful for colo nial purposes, whiles the two Noble Lords opposite said they wanted these troops in couseqoence of the addition to the colonies. Let them wittier half of them, and there would be still° of the ten whose re duction was desired. The two Noble Louis opposite (Lords Castlereagh and Pahnerston) had taken great credit to themselves fur the saving i n the Commissa riat Department of 74,0001. and also of 50,0001. fur the Yeomanry. The fact, however was, that there WaS no saving at all wailer these heads. The expense of the Commissariat Department in Itil s, was 394,00014 in 1.49, 330,04101; in 1820, 476,000/4 so that this saving, as it was called, did not even bring us back to the year Ittiti.—(llear, hear.) — It was the same with the Barrack Department —the savings consisted of sums laid on in 1Z420 and taken off in part in the present year. The gal lant Lord (Lord Palmerston) talked of being about to reduce I I regiments, by which a saving of 145,11110/. would accrue. Why, this was not the amount of the , most of live battalions. The reason of this w is, that it was the veteran regiments that were reduced, and not regulars; the veterans retiring out full pay, and the men upon a higher rate of pension than the pri vates of the regulars. The pay of the officers of a veteran battalion 10011 strong, amounted is( pay. al lowances and cluthin:, to 31,509/. When reduced, ', there would be fur the retired pay of the officers 7,5201. fur the met( at SA. per day, being 2.1. more than full pay formerly—there n mild he 12,0001. 1 making the whole expense 19,5 . 20!. The saving therefore upon the rriluttion of a veteran battalion. j was 12,0001. The amnion of pay for the officers of a marching regiment, when reduced, was 3,739/.--of the men, at six-pence per day, 6,311111.—t0tal 11,039/. being a saving of upwards of 20,000 f. Taking away from tlis, the amount of the saving on a veteran' battalion, theme woald be in the reducti n of test regiments of regulars a saving of eighty thoofifind ur one hundred ti ttttt sand pounds. lie had a right therefore to complain of want of economy in the selection of regiments for reduction. Ibe Hon. Gentleman, in referring to the state of our Colonies observed, that he understood there were several thou sand native troops in Ceylon, for an account of which he should move to-morrow. There were several regiments of the satue nature at the Cape of GJod Hope; and in Canada there used to be a large militia. The number of 32,0011 men for the Colonies was toe great by many theasands. had omitted in his estimate of the internal twili lOree thirty-eight regiments of Irish militia, to wh h iere attached no less than 1000 &Seers. He funlwersted the numbers of the English militia, the yeomanry, and volunteers, and showed that altogether we had at pre sent a body of 307,000 men In anus, or rawly to he called upon should their services he wanting. la the present cir cumstances of the country, he, woad ask, ought the Members of that House to supped SO *Omar's* no establishment? Should this be atatineed, if say sato afterwards should amnesia of agricalteni or N. ought not to be would be entitled the present nil 11 various part, to by the Noble Lord opposite, and argued that from ► own showing it resulted that at present there were too many officers for the number of men to be commanded; and on a view of die whole he was satisfied that a re duction of 20,0110 men ought now to take place. The Staff, which in 1192 cost the country 17,1211. created an expense in Ltso2 of 19,-13-11. and now amounted to no less than 80,0001., as appeared from the estimate on their table. This was an expense greatly dispro-- portioned to the means, as well as the necessities of the country. Ile had no hesitation in sayihi, that millions might be saved to the country. After 'hew , lag that we had a body of 2011,000 men eitHer in arms or liable to be called upon in case their services were wanting, lie thought he could not justly be regaadcd as a visionary, or as one disposed to risk the peace of the country , when he suggested that a reduction of 20,000 men might take place. Were this dune,there would he a saving in pay of .1;14`1,4,2511 In barracks, Commissariat, and Extraordinaries, 434,7301. The expense for Garrison Duty, &c. now amonat ing to 34.0001• might be reduced 5u as to give a 211, , saving of 9001 On the Military College there might he effected a 'mimic of - - - 13.0001. On the Asylum. one of - - - 3,0001. And on the Ilalf-pay there might he a saving of 100,0110/. This might be ac • ;dished by bringing forward Offi cers now on half-pay when new commissions were is sued. He would slsew that since I'4lo, the Duke of York had appointed 1,105 new Commissions, and adopting tiii course instead of hritsging, forward offi cers on the half-pay list, taking the Commissions a twelve years purchase, the patronage of his Royal Highness the Duke of York, cost the country 718,11011/. I u the present ilistress.al state of the country, he would say again this system ought not to be persevered in. It had been said that if tie reduc tions he had recommended were made it would dis tress the officers now on half-pay. lie admitted that their distress at present was great, but complained of the Foreign Enlistment Rill, which prevented them from maintaining themselves and their families its comfort by opposing usurpation and tyranny. Instead o f app o inting voting ( Avers on all occasions, it was his opinion, that individuals ought to be brought for ward from the half-pay list who were willing to serve. He hoped Members would not be lulled into an idea when a reduction of 111,11011 men was called for, that merely a paltry saving was recommended, as the an nual expenditure would at once he diminished (as be lead shown) by 750,0110/. and that with perfect safety to the country, and without creating dissatisfaction anywhere. Its his opinion, no man in that House would In Isis duty to leis country who slid not on time present occasion vote fur the moderate reduction of 10,000 me n, Sir 11. VIVIAN explained. Sir 11. HARMING said, the system of the Guard. load been imptired into by the Finance Con 0000 ittee of I ril 7, and it had been reported by them to require nu alteration, as they were satisfied that the same num bers conlil not be kept up at a cheaper rate. For the expense said to he lavished on the dress of the Guards, he had to remark, that it was known to every military Mall, that the expense of a change in their dress most fill on the Colonel, and not on the country. With respect to the Guards' efficiency, it had been said they were not so available as troops of the line, because they were sationary in Europe. But during the Atne rican war, the Guards had served in America. Had they nut also served in Egypt ? For his part, lie knew of nothing that could oppose their being sent to Botany Bay toonorrow, if their services should he re spired. there. lie showed that the Guards had been most actively regard during the war, and that far from being kept tip fur vain parade, they had to per form snitch more severe duty than ordinarily fell te the share of the troops o f the line, or to those serving in garrison. As to the statement that I the Guards' establishment was overgrown, it was a mistake to suppose that it had been esteemed. The only increase that had t aken place, was the addi tion of Light-infantry, but the same addition had he se made to Reginseetta of the Line. It had beets said that the price of labour had advanced but as from four to five, while /he pay of the troops had been doubled. — This w a misconception. Formerly, it was trite, the spittle', received very little pay, but then his al )(mances for liallassountings, arrears, and other things wt re e c onsiderable ; and he ronsidered it to be an advantage to die public that these bad been done away and the pay augmented. The question now was, whether Or nut the pay was excessive. The soldier at present received one shilling p er day. From this a reduction of sixpence was made for his rations of bread and meat. This was an advantage to the soldier when provi•ioas were dear, and a benefit to the public when they were cheap. Omit of the remaining sixpence the soldier had to find himself in shirts, stocks, shoes, pipe-clay, stockings, 11;e. A very economical soldier, after providing himself with these articles would have about two-pence halfpenny or two pence three fat/ things' to apen , l in a day on beer, tobacco, and similar luxu ries. This two-pence halfpenny, or two-pence three farthings, was the only tangible part of Isis income, and if a saving of ten per cent. was made on the soldiers pay it must be on that. lie explained soil de fended the present system of reliefs. Fur Gibraltar, which one lion. Member had proposed to give up, he, as a military tuan, might have prejudices on the sub ject, but he was of opinion that its possession was of no small importance to this country. During the late war it had furnis:sed supplies to the squadron of Sir James Samoan% in consequence of which be was en ' abled to pursue the enemy's fleet which had passed on to Algiers, and obtain considerable advantages which could not have been obtained had not Gibraltar, been ours. Mr.CALVERT said that at that time Malta was not in onr posseessinn. Mr. GOULBURN then applied himself to answer the charges against the military establishment in the colonies; especially in the Mediterranean Colonies and Mt. Helena. In 17112 the garrison of Gibraltar, the only one we had in the Mediterranean, had 3,33$ men. Malta it was universally acknowledged. required as large a (wises as Gibraltar; yet with Malta and the loniaa Isles our force had only increased to 7,000 Ewa. In St. Helena, the cause of so great a fetes was the sense of the importance of the custody of Boaaparfe. and the wish at the same time to subject bins to little force maintained in them. ,:ntnl them, eorrespoal eeee with the colonies on this subject, the colonies d ec l ared , that if an unlimited trade was ivethey seis m their x •be dc ar willingly pay for their own defence. — (Hear.) Colonial policy of this couanytrtyhe e s p not .n e to e wa su incidentally, nor could it be set t l e d in a mere ca l m lation of expence. The Hun. Member said, that th e new Colonies, which were governed by the Crewe, and which did not now p risons, would do so , if th ey were admitted t o the g ar . a ri smis, i.vileges of the British Constit ution. lie (M r . 0 .) wished the Hon. Member had given any instance of their wil• u e l P t t lingness to provide for troop s.—(llear, hear.)--Noise of those Colonies which we re governed by c 0 ,„ 5 t,,,. Lions, provided for any part of the gar Jamaica, while some of th e new Colonies The Hon. Member then, in *newer to the statement of a Gallant General (sir It. Wilson), that the Dtrhie vernor of the Cape, before it was taken, hativief eue d the whole of the military, as well as civil cavalry ; of t h e C o l o ny, out of its revenue, observed, deo t he s statement must be founded in error. To slo:e thi s , he real an extract of a letter from Y. ph &loose . minds, head of the Batavia's R-public, to fieeeist sett, Governor of the Cape, in which there was the hi. lowing, expression :—" If any branch of active b a t e could be introduced, the Cape might defray its sea expenditure." This letter was dated in June, Itta, which was not very long before it was captured, and was a decisive proof. that at the time the Cape could not support its establishments. Another Oiliest Ge neral (Sir It. Fergusson) had stated, thatGeneralOrty had given his opinion, that 39001. was a s atia ea t ss „ hay for the Governor of the Cape.—((ieeeral Craig, from Sir It. Ferguson). Ile (Mr. O.) could hod so t rac e of General Craig having expressed say sari opinion; Ueneral Orey bad expressed a directly cse trary one. Sir It. FERGUSSON explained what he had said; that in 1795, when the Cape fell into oar basis, General Craig, who acted as Governor, stated is th e Government that be had found no salary fixed for him, but that he had appropriated 30001. per seam which he thought fully adequate to the duty. Mr. GOULBURN observed, that even in that case General Craig's emoluments would have bees greater than those of the present Governor, as the old system of giving fees to the Governor continued till the arrival of Lord Macartney. The Hon. Member thee defended the Secretary for the Colonial Depurates, from the charge of diverting the colonial revision is the purposes of patronage. When the Noble Lord (Earl Bathurst) tirst came into Write, he introduced a Bill to preclude himself from granting any atheist appointments to persons who did not reside in the r • spective colonies. Since the peace all the coasiller able appointments were given to the officers ou half pay, who had no other means of subsistence. Bet the ihm. Member thought the half-pay officers bed been used hardly by the Foreign Enlistment NIL which prevented them from improving their formes in South America. lie (Mr. U.) believed thew vie had gone to South America, bad met with nooesfete anticipated blessings.—(Hear, hear.) —Asti was now a resolution of the tievernueent of that country, stet to wmplayseroresee foreiga offieeml° - cause their health would not - bear the climate, andb:- cause they were too expensive—(Hear.) Mr. J. P. GRANT did not repose going ielo par ticulars ; it appeared to hint that there was an el cess over the establishment of 172. of no less doe twenty-one thousand mea. He thought he had said enough to make out a prima facie case why the F mate ought to be reduced ; and the Hon. Seeman! was called on to eltew an opposite case, and to pew the existence of reissues why the force now proper' twat , necessary. If the House was really auxiutte that the country should be in a condition to meet as; chaser of circumstances which might occur, it oet to keep a etch open the resources of the countr!. and see that they were properly husbanded. he was sure that their Constituents had a right Is call upon them not to leave any thing to the pee 111:Sri of Ministers, but see themselves that thee resources were properly husbanded upon every oc casion. Sir R. FFIRGUSCN, having been particalrely al luded to by the lion. Secretary fur the Colonial De partment, wished to repeat the state line ss he bedloule upon a former occasion , relative te the sahry ( I." Istria Craig, who was Military governor of the Car of Good Hope in the year 1796 e He said lbw. " he would say now, that that officer wrote logo despatch to Government, saying, that as no &Frio' meat had been made as to the amount of the S T. lary he was to receive, he had assigned to until his Majesty's pleasure should be kerma, de anuual sum of 30001. Besides this he received 0 emolument. He certainly thought three those ol s. 14 pounds enough for the sit uation.. And althoudgh* 'mil salary was now tee amassed poun he was informed, that other pesoeisites enjoyed the G 99OMR 1 . o vernor increased the a ctual sum to • was far from his wish that any sanecessaty redo: lion in the pay of *Seers or soldien should ceri v , for by connection be was attached to the arsa. •earp though he trusted that he was still more at to his country. The Hisao arable Member then 0°: some allusions to tb , state of the cavalry, 001 NI jetted to the formation of the regiments of 1004 .1 Our troops could not hr concerted • late Pole% he preferred their remitting tue old English 04 " fighting. Col. WOOD defent'e.i the caval y from the 01 ' dons which bad been cast upon them.-4•ot 014 " the Oppositioa.) Sir It. FERGUSON 'spooned. Sir R. WILSON cont - n.le . that the altetatio a is t the cavalry equipmeets wou ld render them 406(4' If they should be awaits r ailed .tsto the field. Ik e ". of lisped Hope could 11 ri It just as well by aloe; Of 1!1111 infantry, an ;Vt., cavatey, as by the p r o 1400 troops emph. c . ..1! smite. The 1 0111 Islands ought mat ete to. atai .ed, inasmuch a , ‘ o h e f . were a amerce of es; • a r.:, • . peuession of t hr. ! cause of inneb ye. •ss a.. a., the Turks. N.. "P; to rim: if they 0 . • 1 st, !at tat bream' ingliffered m eat ought to e. tu.• jest Indies more them discipline, swat w r y Sy very difficult to War. t‘it• Veteran banit/DS hell" the _ A the troops of the line for Win:: parries at home. di d !•.. : ...4 , ' .1111411 s”isyN ve . viggv.. ........ ..„... _ is A Zak . • itictliii . 1114.• Mt .ersiarr tb• th 1 -. • • . i snkisci of ilii Moeiistp .").. fai lle iT:r i t Timeline.' Cloweval bets tittered taboos to show dot with so small sod eswsidetiog the doe *Welk il 1 THE ST MAN le iticeltit ot enii On itei: . • Net lie ratintki; OW regimen* aMtr klav• play ansille r be we abroad mould be sliowed iii reneain 4' YOn lotted fur . . __ 1._,...... #1..... mnst be lie commented on TINIIMPIRL . WIIIIIIIi • •• ••• - g • 00 1116 6.....44 • ‘ • i .. 4 I 0 114 41V I i : 1 ~ • . . . h re 4fto, ind t.e pereonal &sleight; in eonseip neellf *bid, _t I will Y 4 to 'erase ells this, large givirds were neeessAry in various pi s f 4 . 4 t Mites" estahlistment.” island. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen has slit of the statements made that all the Colon ies should p a y the ex penee of t i le I _ _ . - _ —_._.... .._A ion t IsPna to / h. Onkr•••••••••••.A- i