The Statesman. — London, England, 1820-05-16 00:00:00

the: corn/arr." the anlowity of the Lord stilvornte„ fur it -.vas a question of authority. wish that of the tow lisisetonert. c toms Ur highly oralsed, with the excep tion of Sir lice Campbell. • red, a rreonenten.:ation for reds:eft. n of mittecessary °Sees would rads, trout fir Hey vetta peculiar weight, because he inigi.t just 4{14 llffoi a per& fei —(Hear, hear. and regar 1 to the appointment of M:r P. lolaccay, it was well Icemen to have been a long time pr./pissed helots. it took place. lie came how to the palwr staid, was produced ily the Learned Ler.' . and whi h SnIS supposed to tr; a his jaw .n. Hut seat 1111.ent, if it proved soy thing, 1 .- ! hit three Barons, not f ve, would Se , tiffirient ter Ex. hequer, hor his argument te.nt upon the novo.' that the nutuber should not be roux!, because, ii 090114, they nil* lit never decide. Nov, the mitt.!.er .•:* three world t lice to that end at well as the e nosier of ker.—(ttear, hear!)—ln Fill:La:al, too, it wostol he ree 'fleeted that the decisions in the Ex• lie quer were all made by foots. lwar:)— tie shoull now proceed to sh..w whet extraordinary r tcoustuendations could emanate from (formals of the highest nothority. The Commissioners tool given it a; th it opinion that Ca.m face of one .4 the t lerks of Session was inexpedient. and that the p.incipal Clerk relS stalliatie:at to do the tatty. Now, would the House it wren he told them that, although there vas n b I•GA:3I•Si in the. Court than one Clerk •v aide to periorm, Sir 11 rimer ?Grunt km orris ap poosted a l jerk of atsat t—(llear. hear, Lear •;••titio . n ct was ar,..iinted to an othoe, no. part IA the it cies of whiell it was to Lb' expecte.' he eelai;tl vier 1.111:1;—a k tat tern.l) o hose time, as every body knew, WAS so 111111'h Orf 10141 in other reai F erts. To burthen the country with tinneeessary expenses of this kind slots an act which ought to be vowed front the Ork neys to the Lau l'N-end ; it was trilllitlZ with contempt tl:e opinions of those persons whit had !wen appointed i,e Parliament fo: the purpose of inqUring into, with a view to tit.• correction of pitfall,: abuses. While sons in authority talked .f retrenchment and ecomouty, Cie) scent 91 deterndneti ne..ei to tench any by which th , ir own pairanage was like:v to be affected —:llcar, h....az!)--Mr Walter Scutt was employe.' in very dif t trent pursuits front those of the bot‘itte-s of a Court of Justice ; he MIS writimsK Inure than any man ' , odd read ; stud while his time was so occupied, how could he perform the duties of a public Whine"! Ile •e is sore that many of the appointments to u Mat be alluded were mai. nnkuown to the 3linisters themselves; and he slid not heliese that the liatis tsri nould have made such aFpointineuts. here tie , . nu Court which abounded with so much systematic n'Atie as the. Court of Ex..lisgater in Scotland. 'I he He na tnshrancer of that Court acted by a deputy, he char:tett h sterer hr might consiaier a suitable remuno.ration f.r his trouble; awl there was no contronl over his t barges. Whatever cute the 1 .1..u5e might come to on this question, wird.' not be a matter of anyeonsequenre Linos, r. ; hut this lie was certain of, that, if the r ,te should be in favour of the haus:it:thins to whist alluded, they would not carry conviction to the public—who would still eont l nue to entertain the same opinion of them that h.• himself did ; and the time might not he far distant when !melt a vote would a ontribute to ens-reuse that ferment that already unbar tanately pees ailed in Cie county of Lanark; when it w.suld even be in the titou:hs of those whose duty it was to repress the sliststo hers of I:.e public peace in that part of the kinplow. How could he himself go forth as a Deputy Lieutenant to repress them, without feeling sum • totoponction with regard to these trans actions.—(llear, hear :)—Sume of the persons engaged ism those tumultnons procrediaggs wear a disgrace to their country ; hut would not their numbers he multi plied when they heard that thr !louse of Couunnos sanctioned such transactions us those in question. — (Hear. hear :)—The House had passed laws for the suppression of public mretings, but if the people were not allowed to express th. it opinions openly, they would give vent to their feelings in some other way. He etiticluded pith moving, that the House do at7rce with the Report f the Comma sioners who had been appointed to inquire into the state of the Courts of Justice in Scotland, so far as the same r•lated to the l'ourt of Exch-quer, in which they stated that five Barons w , re more t!.au were necessary, and that the blisinetot of the Court might be dune by four Berlins. The LORD ADVOCATE declared that his consci entious ovinion was the very reverse of that op itaimd in the 'keel.% lle hiaase!f and all u - hona he bad con sulted un the subject cotacurrel is opitfion, is at an in stitution whi .h the experience of inure than a century had proved to be useful, ought not to be hastily alter ed. Thercf,re, if olny alteration were to take place, it should require long and tuatove deliberation, before the tame were attempted. Wilt reeard to. the insti tution of the Jury Court of Scotland, it was first taken as an experiment. All rases a: first were to go to the Court of Session, bef we they came into that Court ; and a prejudice had lung prevailed against the l'ourt. An A. 4 was, howellr, passed, which ale.:l;tred that the cases should first come berme the Jury Court; a great deal of bus:ness was thrown into it, and the Judges in that Court were necessary, for they had a great deal of business to do in the Conrt of Exchequer and the Courtof Session. As to the Cominissionerast so often spoke of by the Ni hle lord, be declared flask they had no ;Iowa; or right to make the report which they With respect to the fourth Baron of the Excheiner, the appointment of that officer was cons rletely justifiable. '1 he officer dial unifo:•inly for years attend a• - • King's Itenunuf.ranccr of the Exchequer in Scotland. lie alluded to Sir P. Aiurrvy ; and no man cull,' he better qualified to till time office of a Baron. He had been appuintonl becamoc he was perfectly well seituinted with the pr-etice of the Court. The saute ;lin e r could be said of the appointment of Mr. Ikatin Parrott. By the appoointtnen• of the firs*, a consider- We saying accrued to the public, because the °thee of King's Itenictukirxneer ceased on his retiring from it. .as to the question, whether this office ought to be filled up, he declared there was no foundation for asserting that it was unnece..ssary. At the time of the union with Scotland, it was declared that there should he a Court of Exchequer in Seotland, and that it 'honk' not consist of lrss th n five members: and it was thought that the linsiness of the t. wart (solid sot be carried on with less. Such bad been the prac tice upwards of a hundred years in Scotland, where she prludlces were as touch in favour of five, as the Tflt .STATES.:MAN. Fein does in Ittglari were hi favour of four. It was Illief4S4tr that the C 0,114 1410 . 1141 consist p a rtly of English and teirty of Scotch lawyers. bemuse there were many paints wi:ich It retell Enaii , ll :awyt is to dvserniln... It was held that tii•ce Judres were ue y from the Scorch Hie, for tit r .serf de:, r osining tionterotto rases leapert 4 sie Seiishoid ; th:s since. had maily tonitiptied, and he was au:e the business co ild root be tronsenienly duns with a less eiuteilwr. It was a ari at nii,tulte to Par that the chief business was done by the 11, inembrancer. There acre various mars 'dative to the horns of the Cr ova, required the strictest site, !ion of the Judges of 'Y., Conn. Noel:sr:et. could puss withoitt their d ee i..l o ,l ; and there were varies" Other 11114.4 of a similar kind which required their close attention. In answer to all this, there was nothi.ig Litt a report of some rai - 11anientary Conimisaioners, who Ptatell that one of the Harms :litchi be dispensed with. lint be contended that these Coniiiiiseloners eitreeilod their r .,%, r., sort amen out sit their way when they reported on the run stitatiun it this Court. Their col W 3 ,, to inquire into the emoluments of Officers :oat Mitti-tets of Jus tice. He wished to know in what instance the Judger, of Scotland timid he called .titti,teri of Justice.— (Hear, bear') —They ol.P.,•rat• of the word, be called so; but in , he %.ords of the art, appointing th e c ouri ,i,‘i,,, t e r i, it e!. 11.4 tieti etot tiaitt the Judges should came tinder that denemination : for if the J utIE is Were to :31);eet to tit, it inquiry • they would haVe been tlalel.3l tir:t. The only olijcet of the Commis sion was, to in wire into fees of racers, clerks, and to the reatedy of aiime, that toir . ht be practised in the receipt of fees., salaries, awl emoluments, on the part of the under Officer% of the Court. The Commix si , ners,!hereforc, had no lamer to nial.e may report respecting the J..!-res. On this orrit4iott, hr could not mold exore-sing ...me .ensure at the wanner in which the Noble Lord had hr , nght forward the name of a venerable and respectable Judge, whose grey hairs might have been 33%rd from the severe reflect' of the Noble Cont.—pier, there was a loud cry of" Or -1 der," and " hair.") 'I he SPEAKER observed, that it wa._ not consistent with order to enter into observations of this kiwi. The Learned Lord said, he hail no intention to give any offence, and he then proceeded to argue against the power exercised by the Co 11111 l issioners, with regard to the Judges of Scotland. He then altuded to the appointment of Sir Sa ttttt el Sheppard to the oilier of Chief Baron of Seotlatol, awl declared that the people of that country felt grateful to the F.,,glb-h Govern ment for sending a gentleman of his excellent charac ter, his amiable manners, and great legal knowledge, to preside in their Court. Anil unless it ',myth! Ire supposed that there was sowerhing infecti tt 3 is the a i r 0 1 s co ri a , ' I—( a lauoh)--it was incredible to con ceive that that Learned and reseertahle person would giv.• an opinion which he did nat fiel to he fair and impartial respeeting the constitution of the Court where he presided. His opinion was in favour of the Court, as it was now constituted ; and with such an opinion before the House, he trusted they would nut attend to the unanthorized report of a set of Com missiotters. He now wished to in form the liottllf. that instructions had been given to him to I.rerare several Arts. a liirh he was to submit to the House, for the repletion of the Court. iu Scotland. In the isiono of December last, he gave notice of his intention to bring forward these Bills ; before lie did that, it would have hero necessary to tote the salaries of the different lace' s in a Committee of Supply; and his Intended lIICASIIrP3 were delayed on account of the Homo- having been occupied in preparing measures for the defence of the country; and since then be had been unavoidably absent from the House. Ile hail, I however, in the interval, taken the trouble to draw lent the heads of the hills he intruded to offer to the House, hail them printed and submitted to the law au thorities and the whole of the Bar in Scotland. They met the approbation of all those parties; and he now gave nosier, that in a few days lie would move for leave to bring them in. Therefore, nothing should be left 1111410ilY whieh might he eonsid.-red necessary for the constittitien of the Scotch Courts, the nninber of Judges in a hich Parliament might Ii as it pleased. With regret to the ass-o-tion that the late Huron Campbell had not attended the Conti fur three rears, that was not the fact. He was only ahaent one year; and when he resided at Bath, old t gh in an 11l state of health, he used to go to Scotland during the terms to attend hi. duty. Lord A. HANIIITON, in explanation, said, that he had not applied his argument ad homiarat. He only tes•ant to say, that if one of the Barons was absent for a year, and that the business of the Court suffered no injury thereby, it was protahle that the three others, by whom the business in the wean time was carried on, might be sufficient for all the duties of the Court. '1 he Loan Anvocave explained. Sir JOHN NEWPORT took a review of the pre ceedings connected with the institution of the l ors mission, and the final allamloninittst or filet fetal*, mentlation by the tiovernment, and contended that the llothe should look upon the conduct of Ministers with great distrust. Ile appealed to a precedent in the ease of Ireland, in answer to the objection, but the Coln ntissioners, by ina . uirinx into the duties, the sums and 'salaries of offices in the ton t, had exceeded the antho rity of their Commission. Ile next adverted to the Convis•don appointed to imenire into abuses in the others of Masters of Chancery, and endeavoured to ; show, from the conduct of Ministers in that transac tion, that he was war anted in calling upon the House exercise sns;4,•ions upon the conduct of Ministers; !for, after tl e sommirsiol was appointed against the 'consent of Ministers, they, in order to defeat its object, appointed two Masters et 1 hanrery to the Commission, land the eon oluence was,t hat they left many important abases unnoticed. It was urged that the present I'm's imissioners stated no grounds for the conclusion which ithey promulgated. Hut had they not stated the nature iof the duties of the othee--ihe number of rattles heard in Court— t ;4e number of motions on an average of the !last yrars—the extent of the sittings, which by !the lofted about 65 days in all, without deduct ring Sttridari and 3londays, on which dais they did ' out sit. • , ech were the grounds of the Cunitnissioners' epinizans. Le. rn , l Lord, indeed, could not get ' rid of the inveterate prejudice of having fire instead of 'f ou r Aides. lie seemed to think tbat even this unto. her was male necessary by the Act of Union, which seid, that the Judges should not exceed five, without remembering that the exi-tenee of any number under bee It as not icrecont liable to 'h.• terms of the Act. But where there WAS inch a onfli. tof up as between the Judges on one side, and the Commissioners on the other, w4,;.141 it not hate been decent u f Ministers to wait for the judgment of Pnriament before airy acted upon either opinion. Such treatment of the Report of Commissioners was enough to discourage any man de ployed in such a situation trim, the pert . ; wmance of his Iduty. About two years ago he had moved for a refer ence of the lit-ports of Co. ' Nsi , )ne:s of Inquiry to a select Committer of that House, an:) he was met by the statement, that as soon as any act was done con trary to the recommendation of the Commissioners, it would he quite time enough to have the inquiry go !award. Here then was the recommendation departed from, and here was the 1 ass for inqn:ry. It appeared that Ministers were willing to postrne the appoint ment till ihe Commission was appointed ; hut as soon as they ascertained that the Cot 1111 l is,ioners pro posed an alteration in the constitution of the Court, then they made the appointment. The Right Hon. Baronet then proposed to sl front the Report itself, that the business of the Court, im.tead of being in creased, was eith 1. stationary or diminished. Lord CASTLEBEAtiII said, he should shortly state to the House the grounds ninon which he gave his vote that night. Ile thought that the House could not be justified in aeleeing to the mo!ion of the Noble Lord, founded as it nos upon the • pinion of the Commis sioners, which was nut attempted to he supported by any inquiry, or evidence of the grounds upon which they formed it. He (Lord Castlereagh) was far front complaining of the seutintents which the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed, namely, that the !louse should support with jealousy its own Commission. Prom what had fallen in the course of the debate, be was assurAll the House would permit him to say a few words in re ply to some reflections made against his Majesty's Oa vernment. If the Right lion. Baronet supposed that Ministers entertained any other notion in the present times than that of diminishing the expenditure, re-' forming abuses, and removing unnecessary burdens, he supposed the existence of motives which Ministers disclaimed. The Right lion. Gentleman said, that Ministers only looked to the support of the patronage of the Crown, and that to that they were willing to sacrifice every principle of economy. It was usual with some of the gentlemen opposite, especially at the • period of a new Parliament, not only to repeat remarks of this description, hut also to inculcate the notion, that all the purity and disinterestedness in the House resided at their side of the House. Ile (Lord Castle reagh) hoped that both sides of the Honse were pos sessed 4.f purity enough to discharge from their winds whatever motives did not tend to the tranquillity and improvement of the country. lint he would repeat that the imputation of bail motive* upon his Majesty's Ministers was improper, and history would furnish in stances in which those who charged were more often actuated by had motives than those whom they charged. With respect to the immediate subject be fore the House, he should say, that generally speak ing, Parliament should, as much as possible, support the arts and recommendations of its Commissioners. •Without blaming the Co ttttt iissioners for having extended their inquiries to various ;Arts of the consti , union of the Court, lie had no doubt that, if the rem ' missions hail been expressly appointed fur the purpose of inquiring into fee-, allaies, and duties, the per sons who firmed the present Commission would not have been appointed. It was not his intention then to examine the opinions, or the grounds of opinions of the Commissions, or those who opposed them, but he entertained no doubt that it was in his power to show that the weight of evidence was in favour of the ap pointment of a fifth Baron. With respect to the pre , sent question, it was his intention to more upon it the previous question. .1t the same time, if the Noble I Lord, feeling that his case was strong, was willing to propose hereafter a course of inquiry, to take evidence upon the ditfereut eirculustances which induced the ICommissioners to form their opinion, he (Lord Castle reagh) would have no objection to accede to it.— ; (Loud cheers from the Opposition lienehes.)—lt was worthy of remark, too, that the Conitniksioners had ; not peremporily declared their opinions, but that they expressed them with great caution and doubt.---ttlere the Noble Lord read a passage from the Iteport.)— Ile protested against the o:•inion, that because a Court ' might proceed for a certain interval in the absence of lone of its authorities, that should be a reason fur di*- , pensing for ever with the authority who had been thus ! only teuneJrarily absent. But were there not many political °Ryes, the duties of which proceeded as usual in the occasional absence of one of its functionaries. It was well known that one of the most brilliant orna ments of the legal professiom Lord Mansfield, was sub ject to frequent intervals ot indisposition, which rendered his absence unavoidable. But who would attempt to say, • that because the business of the Court Will carried on srlvhout his attendance, therefore the office of Chief Justice ought to be removed. He did not mean to give an opiniod upon the subject himself, and there fore it was that he fit inclined to yield to the opinion of the Judges, in preference to the judgment of the four Commissioners, who came to tlivir conclusion in opposition to the sense of the only JuJgr amongst them. It had been said that the Court of Exchequer in Scotland should be placed upon the same footing as that of England. Ile denied this proposition, be cause there was no analogy between their respective duties.—[llere the Noble Lord detailed the various duties of each, with a view to show that the Court in Scotland had more extensive jnrisdiction.)—Of all the economies most abhorrent to the sentiments of the public, economy exercised towards the menthe).* of the benrli was the worst. The question here was not . •ther 2,00111. shall be given one of the public money, but whether the administration of justice in Scotland should be placed on a footing the most favourable to the security of the subject. If, however, the Noble ILord had confidence in the justice or his propositions, let him move fsr a Committee. Ile (Lord Castlereagh) was not prepared to say what he should do with regard to the appointment that bad taken place.—(Loud ebeerinr from the Opposition Benches.)—lt was the habit of the Gentlemen opposite to strril their voices bowler in prorrtion to the weal:ness of their area -1 arms. In truth, they were Wll4' .0 happy as When PP they had same LIAM/. or another to animadvertHe denied the imputation that Ministers did not tl as deeply as any in that House fair the itistrte•,, , Scotland. 'll.e Snitch peer were too enlighten -at 3 l'aCit.• any thing lint sympat:ay le. their mi:erit.,. then proceeded to show that it was usnal. in Joe of this description, to have the Iteport of the Commission referred to the antlior , ties belenging to the Cowl. isle, gave effect to it by their Berra es, and at their d:o r e . tiun. This waa the euurse now followed, and it vi; the coo:se Oda h h. intended to propose, and not to ag.eta to hang up the course of :I, e C our t i n a new „ LI fantastical state, with four Judges instead of five. I iet Noble Lo.il then mused, as an anientlii rot, the Itt • vio:is question. Mr. TIERNEY began by noticing the complaint ai f the Nettle 1.0r.1, that hope:At:ons had been urged against Ministers 4 their disinetination to re:renal, meat. The Noble Lord hail said that injustice ha:l hail been done to Ministers by son:e Members not be• tiering their professions of a detertninsiticon to economy. as Bo help me Hod," said the Bight Hon. tientlem.:ll, " I do not believe their professiotes; mar do I think that any real economy is ever to be expected from them." He was of opinion that all their attention was directed to the nusintainiug of their p.atrouage, anu that they were now reduced to that situation, that they could not afford to lose the third of a fifth Baron t:f the Exchequer.—(A laugb.)--When a prnpositicn was mad* fur the reduction of any useless o ffi ce , t h e reply was, " No, It breaks in on the establishment." The Noble Lurd and the Learned Lord beside differed materially in their views upon this sebjeet. The latter came down, anal, like a god Scatchma:,, maintained that fire was the good o:41 Scotch number, that lie would have 5 Judges, and wanted no inquiry. The Noble Lord, hawever, was willing to grant intteire. Why was not this inquiry granted befor.• ? Who wouhl think of proposing an inquiry after the harm was done. He (Mr. Tierney) contended that the sinners hail peremptorily declared their opinions to he against the appointment of a fifth Baron ; and re:.d an extract from' the Report, in which he said that peremptory opinion was expre-.,ed. It was whiuoic:3 enough, however, that the supporter of the nutoLer tire should he the person to umke a reference front the opinion of five to the authority of four. It might he true that an Act of Anne appointed tire Bar n es; but was no regard to be paid to the difference of times and circumstances, which might make the appeintment if those Judges necessary in one rase, and cs,•leas is another. Notwithstanding the rhetoric of the Noble Lord, he (Mr. 'I honey) could not lint think the ap pointment a very extraordinary one. Wit terer might be the merits and various qualifications of Mr. Adana or Sir P. Murray (one of whom was, however, beter capable of filling the situation than the utter), he utu-t be attuned to designate the transaction by stem which, although opprobrious, was established Paliamentary language, and call it a plain, downright, nntoptirte cal job.--(tiear, hear ! anal laughter )—lf the slightest attention was to be paid by Ministers to eronorny or decorum, the public had a right to expe r, in this in stance at least, a real reduction. As to the inquiry upon which the Noble Lord laid so much stress, it was not called for ; enough was already known upon the subject. The whole argument of the Noble Lard was indeed manly, as it went to say, that the question must he passed by, or the Government embarrassed ; but there was one point worth observing upon. The Noble Lord h.,s spoken of the inconvenience likely to arise from the equality of votes in a division of the Collet in case the tiwnher of Bantus were lour, which inconvenience could not take piece under the present arrangement; but sorely the number which answered for the business of the 'Exchequer ha Enttlaad might satisfy Scotland. Where were the very important ques tions ever mooted in the Scotch Exchequer? More nu merous and snore complicated questions were disposed of in the English Court of Exchequer, yet four Batons were stifficient here. The latter was also a Court of Equity and a Court of Common 14:13% Rut if there dial happen to arise a question in the Scotch Excite tiller which divided the nut . Barons, nothing could be more easilit rentedi , al. A Bill might be passed to enable Mr. ttttt issioner Adam to give a call ing vote in the ExCliequer Court ; he would have time to do so, and some thousands would be saved yeariy to the nation ; but the pl dn fart sees, that the prin ciple of rarenehment was nut to he tol-rated, and the House was to be gulled by a pretence of import herr was the report of the Commissioners, which afforded snlficient ieformation for the Hostas to proceed upon in abolishing this u.eless and lurreiive appoint ment. If a new inquiry were to b.. entered upon, the procuring of witnesses from Sco laud, and all the other causes of delay, could allow nothing to Wilms* in this Sessiom The questi in was. as the Noble Lord had narrowed it, simply referable to the iui berrassm..nt of Ministers. It was not the suitors who were to be enibarraased by the abolition of this piste, nor the business of the Courf k which was to be na ve led ; but it was the tioveinment that found itself involved hat a'l the difficulties. ..nisiv P. Sway we* nut appoieted, Ilovernment must Ilse souse votes.. No doubt Ise might be a deserving .. but he certainly played his game to advantage. dons were powerful; he was a person u hose identity was riosell blended with that others. He might say, as a We ber standing upon similar pretensions aid in Me Irish House of Commoas, " ti'e are five of us. - -(A That, howevet, (said M r.T.) was before the cisioa• — • (A Lugh )_-The fact was, that the Noble Lor.l only acting in the support of a eystem, There were diferent departments ; ea. b had its owl patronsac the convention was, that eaels was to do as be plea in his own ; if the Noble Lord showed a diiTe ant spirit from what he had just then evinced. a 1i .131 1" 1 say, what right has the Noble Lard to interfere what is ilo.m in Sc.olaosi ? Another might says who_ right maid he hare for interference in the Treason ? A third might snake the same o:, thin on the de- . . indolent of the Aihniralty. Now, as to wh at the No ble Lord had sdd of the opi&on of the Chief Leon Sheppard in this e..se—although he (Mr. Tit racy) LA a great respect far the uuderstandiug • f that tie.utle mati, who was ouce so great an ornament to that tla.s.c- - yet he could not believe that he knew the beerier of this subject ; lie went to Scotland to leers thee titter. not to teach them ; and uuw all at once the o was to be totaled into the master. But , then, un bar ; Lord Advocate ea Wormed Scotch Lawyer : ha