The Statesman. — London, England, 1823-03-05 00:00:00

T - viency. Heels°hd bird!, tefrain from a sante at such l a agusee—(a laugh)—the independence of the Church. _cold they be serious; because surely they,.of every class in the State, were avowedly the most servile. H• was not, indeed, surprised at the assnranee with which they put forth such language, because he was aware how frequently assurance carried many people through the world.—(A laugh)—Neither was he surprised at the t oile of an hon. gentleman opposite, because he suppos e I the ' would by and by have an opportunity of seeing how fir his assurance carried him. He contended it was the duty of the State only, and not the Clergy, to look to the situation of the successors. If it was proposed to inter fere with any of the rights of the existing possessors of Church property, they 'night then be justified in their opposition, hut upon no uth. r ground. The clergy ought not to be so hosile to the principle of commuta tion, for a precedent aheady existed which affected the most illustrious Personage in the Sate. Ilad nut his Mak s . ty's territorial roperty been commuted to a mowed equivalent?—( hear, hear !)—and then with what justice could the clergy complain against a similar mea sure ? If they have any other olijections, let them advance them; but as to the objection that by bring paid in money they would be exposed to the tempta•ion of be coming sub servient and servile ; as to that lie confessed lie was w iLing to take the chance, because he believed they could not be worse than they were at present. When have they not been the most subservient, when ever any thing was to be gained by subserviency? He had no objection to lee the clergy enjoying a full and ample remuneration proportioned to their services—a remuneration which, while it would secure to them every comfort, would constrain them to perform all the sacred duties of religion with credit to them.elves and advantage to the public. lie had now sated all the points which occurred to him in his view of the subject. He had endeavoured to show them what the Church was, and how it was constituted, the income which it po-sesseil, and time duties which it bad to perform, and that income was infinitely too great in proportion to the thrit•s to be performed, and there fore ought to be reduced. He also endeavoured to show that such • a system of things induced them to elevate themselves above their proper level, and intermingle in what did not concern them, instead of adopting, in prac tice as well as theory, the divine precepts of the founder of that reeigiol, of which they professed to be the Minis ters, sch t, in maciu,,ie his own life the example by which they wu re to he guiaed, abstained from luxury and ex travagance. He also endeavoured to show that there were many valuable Members of that body who were nut sufficiently tewarded for their services, while there were many beneficed resislmts who did not attend to their ditties, and others who were not resident at all. • He would here also show the evils of the tithe system. hat it was not necessary for him to go into that part of the subject, as the house already aoinitted the existence of those evils. If time house - followed him, be thought he Lad shown satisfactorily the necessi•y of a•lopting the Resolutions with ..vhich he would conclude. After the raternent of the primate, and the little they Id to hope from the clergy themselves, he thought a Committee of the House would be the best means of removing the evil, .and be therefore felt himself warranted in proposing the following Resolutions : 't Resolved, That the property of the Church of Ireland st present In possession of the Bishops. the Deans and Chapters of Ireland, is public property ; under the contrail, and at the disposal of the Legislature, for the support of Religion, and for such other purposes as Parliament in its wisdom may deem beneficial to the community ; due atten tion being puid to the rights of every person now enjoying any ono of that property. • ant it is expedient to inquire whether the present Church establishment of Ireland be not more than carmen ' aerate to the services to be performed, both as regards the number of persons employed, and the incomes they receive, end if so, whether a reduction of the same should not take place, With due regard to all existing interests. .* That the peace and best interests of Ireland would be -"promoted by a commutation of tithes on such principles as should be considered just and equitable towards the present possessors, whetker lay or clerical. That a Select Committee be appointed to consider in What manner the objects stated in these Resolutions can best be carried Into effect." '• He could Dot conclude without assuring the House that be did not mean to cast reflections upon any individual, and That if, In the course of his speech, he had said soy thing • which could be construed as such, nothing was farther from his Intention. - - - - - These Resolutions baying been seconded, and the first • put from the Chair, . Mr. HOULBOURN rose. It was scarcely necessary for him, he said, to inform the house that he rose to give the motion of the hon. member a decided negative.— . (Hear.) —It was not the first time that similar doctrines bad been breaehed 'both by the Hon. Member and others; and now, as he had then been, and ever should be, when ever such propositions were made and. urged, either by the weight of elognence, or the length of detail in which the hon. member abounded, be would he prepared to make his best refutation. If there were any dithe ulty in the question, it was not for the want of argument, but from the difficulty of repressing that intliguation which it was iinpossible I: it to feel.—(Cheers.) —The attempt now made was to overthrow the foundations of property, and those establishments to which :hey were attached not only by habit, but from practical experience of their,be neut. He contended that every principle that was held sacred by Parliament was involved in the proposition of the Hon. Member. This speech of the Hon. Member was a direct invitation to an invasion of property, mliether it were in tie hands of the Church or the Leith or of any lion. Member of that house. lie was surprised that the Hon. Member, with professions to ameliorate the condi tion and character of the Clergy, should have indulged in -such observations as marked tie latter end of his. speech. He told them that that class ought not to be permitted to, petition. This was the measure of justice he would deal out to them.. He told them that the King had been obliged to yield his territorial revenue for a moneyconsideration.liat did he see no different e? Did Parliament do that without the consent of the Crown, or for longer than the life of his Majesty ?—(Hear, hear !)—Did this afford any ground for the compulsory change of one property for another ? The Clergy were united with the best institutions of this country, which must stand or fall u ith them. They Were not that dependant race they had been represente& They bad always stood between the Crown and the peo t•le, as the harriers against encroachment, acd the hap.. linger, of peace in every struggle for power. Ife in *meted the house to look at the transactions which pee ceded that melancholy period which terminated with the death of the Monarch and the empire of anar• hy. It began by that house first attacking the property of the thnrch, and th,n its ni.rnity.—(Hear !)—ln the begin ling of NC, a resolation was passed to the effect, that the revenues Of the Deans and liielinps of the Church of England were too great, and must be curtailed. The next resolit inn set forth that all rectories bold by the clergy were ilhigally held, and oeght to b: r• slimed by thepeople : and the third declared that a ete.ipetent Inainterrnee ought to be provided for the Alinist.t:i of the t !torch. I n three resolutions it was declared, as iLe Hon. Hewlett:an uiltied the house now to declare, that the pro; erty of the Church belonged to Ili • State— that the Ministers of the Church lad no right to the revenues of the Church, and that a• allowance which might be considered competent to their tasiutenasee ought to he a..signed in lieu thereof. But it was six months after those resolutions were parsrd that the con summation was arrived at, for then it was declared, that "the Archbishop and the rest" the circumlocution with which the Clergy previously had been described, was now omitted, had forfeited their freeholds and inherit- ince 'heir lives. It was then resolved that a . suitable remuneration should he granted to the parties affected by this decision ; awl in pursuance of this Reso lution, a tote was rouse to, "'That the Archbishop of York should he allowed 1001. per annum (. laugh.) Ile extracted this Resolution for the Information of the !muse, and not font be purpose of exciting merriment, as he considered the subject one which, in runnexion nith motion,like the the present, was calculated to justify se. 'riot's 1114 m. He directed the attention of the Iniu,e to THE STATESMAN sat on the irigh Bench.He opposed the present enotion,not for the effect which it woul.l have on the Church, hut for that • which it would have on all the interests of the country. it once a vete were given against Church property, he knew ut a hat <I • cripii in of property would couii aue secure.— Considering the Church EstAhlishteent us cAlviliited to pro mote religious knowledge and individual a.:vantage, he hoped those who heard him would concur with him to give heirty negative to the motion. Air. ST EWA la next addressee' the Chair, hot in a tone so very low as to be nearly inaudible in the gallery. We utpler3too I the hon. gentleman to defend. the late Archbishop of Armagh from some charges of Mr. flume. lie slid it was unfounded that the Prelate granted long leases of church property for the benefit nt utdiri foals of hii fam;;. : ,,ur IA the benefit of any l • sans what , cv,r. the time when these resolutions were passed, in order to lead them to the consequences which followed. It was at the commencement of the civil oar.; that these resolutions had been adopted. From that moment step by step the people were led to treat every thing that was sacred with contempt—to despoil the church, and finally to over throw the Constitution. But the hon. gent. hail defended his plan by representing it to he anologoris to that which hail been carried into effect by Prince Leopold of Tuscatry. On that transaction he begged to give no opinion ; but he must take the liberty to ray that he would not consent to abandon the principles of honour and justice on any plea that might be grounded on a similar proceeding in a foreign country. Frorn Lis youth lie hail understood that if England was in any thing distinguished from the other nations of the earth, it was for her steady adher ence to truth, morality, and -justice; and he would not consent to compreinise this character for any prospect of temporary or local advantage. Rut the Hun. Gentleman heti spoken of this measure as being calculated to relieve the landed interest. Viewed in this light, he thought no man in that house would lie %sillier to give those the lion, gentleman professed anxiety to b •friend the boom he was disposed oiled.' out to them. Of all the dangers likely to befitl any country, he knew of none greater than what wield be expected from adopting a p1,..n which wont I rob one class of snbjects in order to mitigate those burthens wt;ich pressed on another. He meant no dis respect to the hon. gentleman : but he felt it his duty to reject the present proposition, whiela, in his opinion, while it professed charity, rent to sanction a flagrant act of spoliation. It was not the first time tliLt the Church had been thus assailed; nor could the' Right lion. Gen tleman claim priority for the reasoning which he had ad vanced. in other times similar evetnpts have been made. " Might not this ointment be sold for 300 pence, and given to the poor," was the hypocriti , al pretext advanced by those who were no friends to benevolence. While they held this language, they cared not for the poor ; but they opposed it to the gre:it founder of our Religion, not because the course he pursued was necessary to his exis tence, but because they feared it would give Isis Ministry undue splendour, and raise hiin to a height which they nished not to contemplate. The Hon. Gentleman had gone so much into detail, Grit it was impossible he (Mr. Goulbitrn) should pursue him through the whole of them. It was impossible Me him to look into the amount of the tithes for England, and explain the circumstances under which one Prelate had let his land, anti another had assessed extraortinary wealth. He hoped that the house would extend to him so much of that indulgence which hail been extended to him on other occasions, as not to asssume those statements were correct which had been advanced by the Hon. Gentleman, till time fir preparation to answer them, had been allowed. He and the Hon. Gentlemon differed on principle as to the cha racter of Church property. The Hon. Gentleman had assumed that property held by the Church was not pro tected by the same gtiards which secured the pro;rerty held by an indisidual• Layman. He (Mr. Goulburn) would assert, that the Lands assigned for the mainte nance of the Church were the property of the Church. He spoke in the presence of those who could correct him if he were wrong, but the Tithe pioperty . ophe Church., was so identified with it, that so long as fiat House I continued to perform its duty, they could no more di vest the holder of tithes of his property, than they could divest any individual of his estate. There were' individuals who held property by certain services to be by them performed. Thrse sera L•es, omitted to be per formed, who had ever heard of the patties being despoil-I ed of their property altogether ? Yet this was the course the Honourable Gentleman was disposed to take with re spect to the Clergy. The hon. gentleman mistook alto gether the charity , - r of tithes. These were not given merely for the benefit of the Church, but for the benefit of the people. He described some of those who received them to defraud the country, and therefore he proposed to withdraw the property from them altogether.--" Be cause certain members of the Clergy, in particular parts of the country, do not perform their d'oty, I," cried this great-reformer of the modern school, " will mulct the districts which have thits been wronged of the means of maintaining the Clergy for se er!" Supposing the case of abuses to have existed in a hospital, would that he a reason for doing away that hospital ? The lion. gentle. man • might say he 'aid not argue fairly in coiiipariag his plan with the Resolutions of 1640; as the hon. gentleman had proposed not to limit the allowance of the Clergy to the sum then thought sufficient for their main tenance, as lie proposed to grant them an income of be-. twern one huntired.and five hundred pounds per annum, but in principle be conceived the proposition to be the same. He (Mr. Gonlburn) was not bound to the Esta blished church by any idle veneration which•wciaid lead him to favour those who neglected total the duties of their situation. He, however, hilt that great advantages were derived from the efforts made to promote religions knowledge, and it had atways been the Ode of the hkurch of this country to have produced more nien of learning and of ,general knowledge, than had distin guished any other church in the world. This supplied one reason against • uncalled for hiterferetice with- the clergy. Unless the same itelncements, as foimerly;min tinued to be held out, the same influx of learning and • talent could not be expected. When he (Mr. Goul burn) compared the church of England math that esta blishment to which the lion. Gentleman was very fond of referring, the church of Scotland, (of which he meant to speak with proper respect) when he considered the dis • tinguished individuals which bed been furnished to the world by each, he confessed he could see no reason for 'altering opt present church establishment. The obser vations he had mails were necessarily of a very general nature. The argument did not confine 'itself to one country. He knew of no argument against diminishing or confiscating church property in this country which would not apply to. similar acts in Ireland. The Ho nourable Gentleman had admitted that the• Irish church was no worse than that of Englaud, and therefore it must be admitted that it was entitled to the same int partial.justice. Those who took this sriew of the subject would, he hoped, roam nil& him in voting against the motion. Haying differed so much (ruin man, he at length came to one point in which he could :agree with him. lie joined with him in regretting that so many of the Irish Clergy were non-residents: he wished more of them to he resident in their dioe,ises. as he thouitht the pee., :fence of the Clergy more necessary in Ireland then to any other country in the word: Ile AV tblied to see then, resident there, as I.e thought their presence would tend to tranquillise I the people snore titan any other circti-ostance that could be imagiaed. This had been in the contemplation of the Bish rps, Archbishops, and Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and their influence bad been used to diminish the number of non-resi dents. To make the Clergy resident on their livings, with out attacking the property of the Church, was 411 it to which lie had no objection whatever. The Hon. (tent, had spoken of the influence of family interest, and bad supposed the Church appointments In Ireland to be made from these cor rupt motives, which so readily occurred to lam oil all occa sions. Ile knew that nifty of the Clergy in Ireland had no cotinctien with high families or with those who bad seats in that Howe. This, however, was nothing, unless the indi viduals alluded to, by their character and conduct forfeited ;noir claims to the distinctions they enjoyed. There were - 1 none higher in talents, learning, and virtue, than those who Mr. M. FITZIIEItALD sad, t' a' if he had felt some dieiculty rep-dill/ the vote niece) he should give upon the resolutions teen before the bonre, that difficulty had not been removed by the speech of the right hon. Score tery who had just sat down. If be could not assent, on the one hand, to all the charges which the hen. member for Aberdeen had brought against the church of Ire land, in the very able statement which he had that even ing made, neither could he assent to the sweeping de fence which the right lion. Secretary had offered against them on the other. In stating that it was his opinion that the church of !reamd reqeired ioquiry and reform ation, lie trusted that he should not be considered as en terteiniug any let Logs of hostility towards it, or as "peeking Iron, any envy or towards those who were intrusted with ti e care of it. He wisl.el that all inquiry should be instituted into its co/Mite-le and a re formation mole in its abeses, more for the sake of in creasing the stebifity of the Protestant establishment, than foe any paltry gain which might arise from the con fiscation of its property. (bear) The church of Ireland appeared to him to be too rich—(hear) and whilst it was so largely endowed, it could not be expected that those humitle duties which were so often demanded from its members would he performed in the exemplary manner that Christian chairy den beefed that they should be.— (beer, bear.) It oug i ut to be recollected, too, that in Ir.-- laid the church haul to compose with other sects that possessed able and enlightened clergymen; and if it were to be kept hp for any thing else than a mere meitical machine, it was nece.sary that its Memeers should 'Cmbative with act'vity the duties which their situation reqeired of them. He conten.led that this unfortunate ly was not the ease, and mentioned as a melancholy il lnetration of the evils which had arisen from this neg lect, that in whoie districts in the south of [rebut 1, which he recollected to have been inhelli'ed by Protestants; the inhabi tarts had hen ieete members of other sects, in which they lied found able and aetive ministers.—(Hear, hear.) These eircumsteaces had led to two, three, four, seven, and, in one instance that he knew, to eleven parishes be ing united into one, and to their being confided to the care of a single ineirelual.—(Hear, hear.)—This, hoe ever, was not the whole of the evil; fur it so netimes happrne I that even in these parishes, where there hat been resident Protestants receiving; the care of wills front a Protestant clergyman, the rector was now an absentee. Was it not right to inquire why the Protestant population was dimini•hing, at a time •when its clergy eau in the receipt of much larger euiolu• ments than the clergy of any other sect?—(blear.) lie could have wished that this motion for inquiry had been bruneht forward in some other shape, or haul Conte from some other quarter; but if Ministers would not originate such a proposition, what WAS he to do ? When he found the Right flonourahle Secretary objecting to inquiry, not upon the ground that it ought net to be efreeted in the manner etoposed—not upon the grottrof th it he had some measures to suggest that would render it needless, hut on the view' th it the theoretical excellence of the Irish church establishment rendered all inquiry into it perfectly unnecessary—was he not obligee to resort to the measure • Cleo before hint? He had said tb it he felt difficulty as to the vote he should give; but he most now add, that if this ruodusn went to the vote, he should cer tainly vote eur it.—(Hear.) The lion. Member then proceeded to contend that the church of Ireland nas in danger, not so notch front the hostility of rival sects, as from its own inactivity and supineness.—(flear, hear.) — He feared for that establishment, because it was deter mined to wait fur a referetation from without, rather than itself commence a reformation from within.—Oscar, hear.) He Fare the Irish Government credit, for having selected in its recent appointment of bishops, men who were distinguished no less for their learning and tal nt, tha u for their Christian zeal and charity.—(Heer.) He hailed that circumstance as ominous of good, and he should have considered it still nine so, if he haul seen it accompanied by any disposition to investigate the cen d:tion•and remedy the abuses of the church, over which they were set to preside. Notwithstanding what had been done, hue was convinced that, unless the residence I of the clergy was inure strictly enforced, unless the dis cipline of the church were more closely observed, and unless its Ministers were compelled to pay more attention to the education of their parismoners—a duty which they were sworn to discharge, but which they generallyne glected—he was convinced, he repeated, that in a few years, ihe church of Ireland would-have but few fol'ow- 1 era Misting the middle* and lower classes of society.— (hear, hear.) After some observations on the inconve laws of the tithe system, and the inefficient measures which had been proposed to remedy them, the flight Idonnurahle (lentleman concluded by expressitig his de termination to support the resolutions of the Ilan. Mem ber for Aherdeen. Mr. PEEL-trusted that they would, on no account ./Tatit the insestigation that oas required. Not that he was en enemy to fair investieatiun—no—that man was the, real enemy to it, who could propose such resolutions as the how member for Aberdeen had that evening laid 'upon the table.—(Hear, bear.) For his own part, be had never beard the doctrine of spoliation so boldly and openly'advanced. Was it possible that such a doctrine asilse hon. gentleman hail broached should come from a Whig—nay, from one who carried his popular no tions, not to call them ideas, even farther than a Whig? ••••.(liear. hear.)•• %Vas it possible thst such an individual should object to the tight of petitioning—that he should contend, . that parties whose rights and prop rty Were to be iovadetl,slionld not have the power to remon strate and complain of such an attempt?—(Hear.) They only said that .for the interests of the church of Ireland, they deprecated it; and was it possible to conte nd that this Atli either illegal or improper ? Yet, the littnour able. gentleman had h one eveu much farther : be ha I said, that they were to be regarded in the light of offi cers:who unitetlaith their brethren of another battalion for the piiipow of resisting a proposed reduction of the nrity.—(Hear.) If such a doctrine had come from the Mitris.,erial side of the house—if the inenis•Tes of the church had bren there compared with individua's guilty of a breach of military discipline and of open mutiny, the language would never have been endured. The hon. gent. has -hiked, what was tube u nderstool Intim Words "Church of England,". and hadeentended that va rioo4in-•asiingsmizlit beat rilhotA to them. If the honse were in/inking whether Qnskerisen should be the esta blisliell religion of the state, his situation and duties would be ditfetent ; hut in this kingdom, the reformed religion was the outahlislied religion ; and, attached to its - discipline, its doctrines, and its governm-nt, he f-It Isim.clf at fni.l liberty to state, what he coneei:ed to be the mear.ing of the terms" Church of England." It was no obscure or novel expression ' • it was employed in one of the most solemn acts by which the liberties of the country were claimed and defined, and our'aneestors did not think it inconsistent with their own freedom to main taro that of the Church of England. In the first page of the first chapter of the first volume of the .statute-book, in Magna Charts, it was expressly declared-o'od . rin g/lea/la Recleiia libera sit et habeat jure sue integra et libertates sues illeesas. (Hear, hear.) At the period of .he revolution, when the coronation oath was established i: was not thought inconsistent with the rights of the .u" jest, to require from the Crown, in the presence of an archbishop or bishop, a positive and solemn engagement to maintain • the Protestant reformed religion, and to •pres rye to the bishops and clergy the rights- and liberti a'o which they were entitled. (Hear.) He de nied the position, therefore, that the church of England meant no more than a congregation of Quakers, or and other I sect voluntarily associated; .aid refused to accompany I the Hon. Gent. one step its his inquiry, because he had not explained the principles on a hich he intended to proceed.— His sophistry could not impose upon any member who had sat only a week in the house. He could not deeive the weakest man, by asserting that his object was the same as that of the primate who slid that the church of Ireland had been much mistinderstood.—(Hear, hear.) His first resolus tion was enough to show what his real purposd was.. It de dared that " the property of the church of Ireland at present in possession of the bishops, deans . &c. of Ireland" (As if they were mere and absolute intruders)" is public property, lender the control,' add at the disposal of the legislature, for the support of religion. and for such other purposes" (per- Imps for defraying the deficiences in the civil list, or for paying off the national debt) „ as Parliament, in its wis dom, may deem beneficiaL"—(Hear.) Ile (Mr. Peel) was the last Maitiete deny the competence and jurisdiction of Par liament, tilt would say that Parliament could not legis hie upon this property in the way proposed, consistently with 40y 'of the principles oa which it had hitherto procced ed. If Parliament interposed in the manner required, there would bias end at once to all the security of private pro perty.—(Hear.) M. DENMAN was not disposed to wait till the evils complained of were at:eutpted to be re formed by those a ho opposed this motion, as if he did so he feared there would be no chance of their getting any resorm at all.— lle irate nothing in I he Act of Union which ought to preclude thVea from considering what principle ought to he applied to the Government, of the Irish church. He }redid with dismay the reference made to the Coronation Odell. He thought no argument drawn from that source could prove v ry concil:atory., as that had for a Ion"; pe rio I prevented a foie: discussion of the claims of the Ca- Viol es It was unfortunate that the Right tion.Denr. had wade any reference to the Coronati , n oath. lie saw no objecion w con.idering whether the resenu-s of the church could n it be made more comlucive to the good of the chore's. What ha I been &twain the cote of the Cu racy MI. These first principle a had been referred to in order to make a b-tier provisimt far the remuneration of the c'ergy who performed the duty. The hon. gentleman concluded by casting some censure upon the strung ex pr. ssioos the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Peel) had applied to wiiat had fallen from the hoe. member for Aberdeen. Mr. PEEL explained. He had nee r used any argu ment founded upon the coronation oath. Mr. DENMAN expressed his satisfaction at this as. surance. • Mr. PLUNKETT said, as to the nature of church pro perty, his opinions were well k sown. He should there fore Ilan that part of the subject entirely; but in ie• ference to Vie regoLitiona non before the house, he . . _ could not help expressing in terms as strong as the English largusge Afforded, and the rules of Parliament allawed,his reprobation of the utter desperation and folly of the principle asserted. (Much cheering.) sloth as he regarded the interests of Homan Catholics of Ire land and of the emp:re, yet if their success were to en danger the Protestant establishment, lie would ding the eghts of the Catholics to the winds, and abandon their range for ever. Mr. MOCK shortly supported the resolutions. • Mr. GRATPAN said, that be ihonld also vote for them, and thanked the hon. gentleman for brineing for ward the momentous question. He disclaimer' this prin. ciple of spoliation, but wished the house to inquire into the duties end salaries of the clergy. • . Mr. HUME replied. He put it to the house whether any thing that lie had said warranted the warmth of hte personal attack simile upon him. (Hear, beer).. The Honourable Gentleman ass proreinling when the Speak er interfered, and Mr. Peel and Mr. Plunkett explained. Mr. Ilutoe then supported his motion, by quoting .the language of Dr. Watson, in his letter to the Duke of Richmord, and said, that although he was accused of " desperation and folly," honourable gentlemen would see that he spoke with a bishop on his side. Let.Ati• Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett).silo talked of spoliation, let him answer how it hapkened that he had himself been a party to that great spoliation of the Irish clergy, the tithe o agistment? When a so lemn ilei isioo in the year 1720 had declared the right. of the clef,. y to take ti•lie of agistment, how. was it that the Right lionoorabie and Learned Gentleman had put his hand and seal to the deed which, despoiling the clergy of that tithe, robbed some of them of thirty nine fortieths of :heir tithe revenue? How was it that the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had done pais —the Right lion. and Learned Gentleman who charged him (Mr. H.) with spoliation "in the strongest language which the House of Commons would allow?" (clieerine . .) In concluding, the honourable member said it was impos sible the Church of Ireland could continue in its present state, and therefore he called upon the house to aid Mai in the inquiries he proposed. It was useless to talk of leaving the thing to ministers : ministers would do in it, wit it they had been doing for the last 50 years—nothing. lie believed that there were honourable members who felt differently upon the subject from himself ; but he would, num it!' oar] in e, take the sews of the house upon his s. •on,l re.itlot ion. (Considerable cheering as the how hie ober sat down.) Mr. GOULBURN exylaine I. His objection to the measure was, and with him it was a derided one, that the spoliation of the church must inevitably lead to the spoliation of private property. The lionae then divided upon the second resolution . For the resolution, 62—Against it, 167-31ajoirity, WEST INDIA PIRACIES. Mr. MARRYATT rose to call the attention of the house to e.'rtain circumstances whicii hail some time.agq taken place between the Admiralty Board and the Coin inittee at Lloyirss After expatiating upon the utility awl importance of that body, the lion. Member proceeded to irate tile facts, which have been already before the public, with regard to toe capture and attack of several merchant ships off Cuba; and after a speech of some length,. which want of roan prevents us from detailing, moved, that there be laid before •the hoose copies pt letters from J. W. Croker, Esq. Secretary of the Admi ralty. to Mr. John Bennett, at Lloyd's, together with co pies of !titers from the Commanders of the Carnation and Outeral to the Admiralty, on the subject of the West In dia trade. GEORGE COCKBURN. in reply, defended the Admieally, sutosssertel that the charges against the Board were foanifed in error:. Mr. T. WILSON regretted that tiny misunderstanding should have arisen between'the Admiralty and the Com. nittee at Lloyd's ;' but hoped that good would arise from the discussion. Sir L COPYIN inatle some remarks, condemning the conduct of the Cemmit;eit at Lloyd's. • . M. BRIGHT was much gratified that the statement of the noble Lard of the Admiralty di.id vindicated Oat Board. lu Sir U. COCK BURN explained. Alderman TBOMPSON suggested, that as it was•up parent to the -hays , Ilya evert• satisfaction sougot by the gentlemen of Lloyd's might hate been obtain( d ‘l4l 'I :~ r ' • ,• as 1 •1 i