The Statesman. — London, England, 1819-05-04 00:00:00

to begin discassing the doctrime of traesebetantiation. framed, peeeidmit thee the tells shoal! be offee"d to Hot what was the fact ? Why, that in the memory all persont sospeeted of holding that faith, and that they 'build be sent into baniehment i( they refined it. of man no goettion es 10 the disqualification of • C a th o li c for Lord High Admiral ever took Nam.; How was possible to deity to the papal See et Ibis mod that h e m os jest as competent as •ey ether moment the pomession of c o y ecc l es i ast i ca l oni l thr i ty Pe sod •hatever. It appeared so bias Ilona point in this reentry ? It wee intend e d as a trap f or C a . which Sad moped the almost mitacelosa sagacity show., bet it wee In fact • trap only for Pro of Mr. Fos was one which, if it bad any important osmosis. In the Act, called Sir John Meanies Act, the length at a new oath of allegiance mat framed for Papists, in relation to' the subject, snight justify which he Ind technetium, in eapfain, and to prese I which it eves slated that no foreign Prince or Palatal it upon the attention of the Honer. lie conceived it bath, or ought to base, arty spirituel or Imenneel seniority in this 'the Papist, boom', might t. be right awl necessary to sto l e what the ae tually was, at a moment when both England and Ire- more easily escape from this oath than the Proteetant ; land were auziothly l o oking t o th e r e su lt o f their end h •ppeared Ist lion to be incumbent on his Right decision, the latter with eyes of eSpectstion, and the Hon. Friend to mov• for the repeal of thenath,beforehe f ormer , as be trested t without alarm. ft was Resin supported thegrant to the College of blaynooth. right that England shock] be undeceived in the opt. I If any set of persons, ought to be preened, guarded moo that s h e hod been coy, when in fart she had agents' the freers of Popery, it was she mtvants of beta ',ireful, kind. The I n d emn ity Acts could the Royal Household ; and yet a Sys Officer was net be considered as temporary laws f o r they Callen] upon to lake all sheae reels of pfisillfafflife • bees renewed, with a v•ty short interruption, for i w hil e th. King's its were required merely to liveried of 85 years. They were as old Of the reign subscribe the declaration of the 45th of Charles 11. of the gorse of Hanover orer these realm,. What The Oath of Supremacy had been orieinslly enacted Ind %deceit our a n cesto r , to d escen d t o thi s more es a guard to the infancy of the Church; end jeolowsy ontigetedsystem of legislative policy ?Tim , sjst f m was of the power of leisure, together with the Popi.k di , sa d e i s e sn d just so early mills. O'hyter olGte 1- Plot in the reign of Charles 11. , had led to other si Whet, the house wes reminded of the oath of supre• miii, ei , octsoentt. 'They • piece according to the mac,. it might be well t o reco ll ect , m o t tw o oath was great or less degree of panic which meshed—a pack f rame d open a mere dogma of that beweficesit hie with regard to 'becomes of which it bad been truly „ ase k. Wore VIII. This Aet, however, had not said by the P r ow-- mord Use •selesien of Roman Cathnitto Gem Par- •• bow truth the,, we., Net gash'd and reew'd wish Iles, fitment doting the reigns of Elisabeth s o d Jeers I T pleas. she Awls, a.. 41 pe,zie II tb- who." The marriage o f Ch il i es I with a Catholic Princess whoa she Protestant gentles we• in the greatest dun. ger. That missies did pet lake place till the 25th of strengthened those fears. 'nee Popish Plot came in Ches. II Otto ilmiests respecting the foal presence is aid of the apprehensions entertained ; and when the therottharlei were provided. Even these tesis,however, Sovereign was seen g gto Mess, it was naturally dad wo e satiety the arde••l seal of the Protestant, of thought necessary to have powerful enactments th et as, ; and, by the Act of the 30th of the same against the teeieing spirit of Popery. In the time of coifs., • wreck more copious declaration on the dec. William and Mary it etas eipedietit that the oath Wee of transubstantlistion was enacted. In some shoeld be takers without delay. Bet upon the sc ow.. the former wee still deemed sufficient, bet in cession of George I. the ti me was fi rst made three ether, 'he latter was made indispensable. By one of moths, and afterwards wended to ail, atter the the Acts of King William, the army mere required acceptance of CAD'S. WPM we afraid of the Roman to make one of these &clarinet'', and left liable', Cotholin?—[Loud cries of hear, /icor I—ln the penalties attached to s refusal of the other. The the ' imp of the G u np o wd er not ; in the time of oaths which had been repealed by Quetta Mary were Charles the Second ; in thine times when they bad re-tnected by the l'onseatiou; nor was k surprisieg been active, miechievnes, and pooerfol, we had put that SOCIIIIIIVO of Mt, eaters should be required at u them down, end eseicised great merrily over them. lime when a Popish Netted'', supported by the N.w they afforded an mute of alarm, not one whole power of France, as. on the shores of Ire. tom of hostility, why should they he Putative! from lead. rffsefilf intake ought, in fact, to make bo th the mo i l r i g ht s an d pt i v il egoe of subjects ? lie did them deelaretions; for the luclemeits Acts did not not contend for them as absolute sights. W. lived distlogoite one from the whs.. By the first of these in a political state. They were not legislating for Acts,in the r"igo otWilliam,ibeform of words lei which abstract beings. le a political view he contended the Oath of Allegiance thould be tate, was partici- for theclsime urged by the Roman Catholics asequslly lefty specified; but by the Ist Geo. I. they obtained a safe and wise What bugbear they could now w oos lease mid tenure of th •ir respective offices. This sent, 'actin for themselves, be was in able to fanjet.- lest Act, which right bea k ed perm ial, piece' ell his tore. They were, indeed, coojuting up enmethieg of Majesty's 'objects in the same situation; allowing ibis kind for themselves, for they complained of she them, ..is accepting public eare.• dr toy of sia mouths ielleence of the English Court in the Court of Rome. in taking the "orients oaths god dm-wales'. These —(I laegh.)—He wee not calling for new laws; he were lows pesod equelly for England and !relied, •n:y whiled to have that made permanent which was admitting to any office, with lb. exceeptino of a few, now temporary, and the law which was at present .moment which were !hostel the Laid Lieteleseat, p ioos to be d4nl,ive sod Med. Ile did not in. the Commander.lo-Chief, and the Chief Secretary sist on theirloyalty , l Jerson., en the Right Winner. for Ireland. These offices mete not to he filled by able Gentleman had manfully said, What had made rapist' under say toodition; end yet ender thee them disloyal, if they were so? By granting their wet, law they might be so filled. He mislaid appeal reasonable claims their !royalty will be confirmed. to his Right Ibm.Ftieed (Mr. Peel) whether Is• bad It was the notate of fwesecoadoo to make its objects eve taken this .et which strewed to have both in. poem their own way with greeter "Ivor. A system t otted as a wet *lamb:al teat fur estglolog Papists. of jealousy and ity towards the Roman Whet. 1., however, 00 the appointmeat of a Nino, which Iles would naturally prodecedistrest cod disaffection ; Its- Right 1100. Friend was indeed well•known not concessista would be accompanied with mutual eon& tn be, the oaths of supremacy, abjuration, &c. were dente and dished attachment to our happy Cnnstite. Widowed to hits, he would be indemnified f o r &dist • !Inn. lie begged the pardon of the House for having lug them The feet was, that no such oaths sere occupied so much of their time.—(Lone and coati ordinarily tetiffheil, and it would answer ne purpose need cheers.) in the argument to ergethat hie Right Hen. F• tend The WEAKER read the motion, and pot the Iv, takes the oath of a Nett Councillor. Thu. he (morn epee It, believed bed nut been done for some time after hi• Mr. LESLIE FOSTER said, that Ito was gbh, Right Bois. Flitted bad continued to (lethargy the astoniched by the speech Olds Host. Friend. Mellon. fishes of that office. But be WOO now arguing ups.c ' , timid had cisroverrd among the secrets of Acts of the legal effects of the different Acts passed upon thi• Patliament that the Roman Catholics had been in Fustiest.; mod hip Tight ask, what oeceseity there era, ~o, s ses.ion • r the psi tie g e. so much in dispute for for the.Comeniadir•in-C•ief to he a Member of th• more tbao a centaey. A Roman Catholic might be Pries Council? He shook), perking. by thought tog. Lord Chastrellor, tar preside at the heed of any of. a great way ekes be asserted that a Romeo Catholic See, and .it in P. , litment, altboogh of this last his sight eves be a P r ivy C o soclu ne . phis pfoposilio o Uon. Friend was leas cettain. Ile took lezte, as a it would weeettheless he owl to maistain. The lawyer, to say. that he differed from him entirely. lir use "'MAW set, helmeted, impale to him a die. Ile • oald not follow him through 16.180 Nowt Sta. position le alone them with the diseessioa of leg. - wee. He should state else cireeinseanto which op niceties 0r otibtile refinoorento ; *bat he wee Roo longed to him sufficient. Ile did not think that the urging flowed hoes honest and shivers coneir- Art of Indemnity had any referees.. at all to Roman lien; arid sus submitted this early in the de- Colholice. The preamble states, that ss Whereas bete le wake that it might be gm.erelly and fairly absence, ignorance. or unavoidable uccitlent," nonontnell. Tb. ogee of Privy Councillor was may ben prevented. Note, with Roman Catfish. wet in Itself • lace of trust, and it 111 . 11 s no where lies, it (meld be neither absence, ignorance, nor eteutinned is soy of the Act, traemeratiog thy ex. Wahl* accident, fur it was • moral impos. espied offices. Ile did not deny the King's authority sibility in their tam. The Indemnity Act gy be Coursed to administer en each ; but with regard *orally poised early in for Station, about the to the oaths under consWeralion, the Act of Perlis- Ist of March. It contain'st no prospective en-, ment hod preectitied the faun and wanner in whit% vision. Six months ate given, het thee' P sit they should he taken. They were to be taken either mooths before the nest repetition of the In enmity •t she table of the MIMI Of fin en. of the four Courts Act, and in the mean tints it would be in the power in Wemesinster.hsil, or at the Geomal Qoarler Sem of any common infstrmer to subject the offender to Mons of some County. The provisions of the Act greet and severe penalties. I'. Eiteland the eteculien mere lot satisfied or emoted by any oath merely might be pet of till a new Act of Indemnity shield I tam before the King in Council. lie fernier times be passed; but it could not be so in Ireland, when OS &My took the oaths before the Moster.hisster. the cage could only he Iravenrd to the neat ()early' General; the navy before the High Admiral ; and i Session. This circumstance his lion. Friend should Members of Parliament before the Lord High Stew. have adverted to. The privilege of a seat in that The latter practice still prevailed ; bet the oath Hesse rested epos ground, quite peculiar. Not only of a Privy Committer was the relic of an ancient meat the oaths be taken Wore the seat ears be form wholly foreign to the intention of the Statute', occupied bet they mast hare hone taken et a previous his argument therefore wee, that the whole current stage. Net eel, were not six mouths allowed, but Ns of authority proved the oaths instituted during the minutes were not allowed, to consider whether they reign of William to be virtually repealed, aid he shook! or elsooldnut betaken. lie woold r howeeer,th. inferred that the honours of the legal profession ware stain from any further remelts ins the observations of already open to Roman Catholics. When the Lord ' his lion. Psietid. The Horns was cot now met Chancellor and „ledges took the Who, it was et the to deliberate open the inter's/coil . 0 of existi n g lo w s same time, anti they were included in the sime roll ; or to reconcile the contradictory provisions of ISO bet the oath of office wee aloes indispensable, and Statotes--(//car!)—he would therefore proceed tel lie should not he surprised at finding a Protestant !is few obsorsations on the merits of the goostion,i Judge with warm feelings Oft the subject actually ; and in doing se he cseuld not hut trier, in the 14911 try the poise. The Roman Catholic might at Mat ' place, to the feelings of the sesi" , "Y lila People assert ert his right t o a d e l ay o f s i t months, and, anles against the concession of the claims put forward by the wisdom of ages was to be turned aside en his the Roman Catholics. Ile might appeal iv the stale a cement, might safely re/onto laity them at any time. of public opinion, both in Esiglatsd and Scotland, is The Oath of Soprem l ey, to which he bad already manifested by the Petitions on the Wile. At no time alledtdoignig e d that notoreign PoleottlO, Prince, since 1807 were the fowling, of both knit/dome so for Prelate bath, or ought to hay., any superiority, loudly 'spiralled egging' the grant of new privileges, joriadiction, power, or authority within this mdal." or even the discussion of firmer demand'. Nobody This might be very prope r and natural leugnie who wished well to the interests of the regatta , wine Popery was set to be tolerated; when it was would desire to room the public mind on any viva. to be duets out of the colour) ; whew Acts were sore, unless is cases of parlasveut uocecity ; but on • riF STArrt$MlN Isle question he believed the great majority of the whose strention hail been called to Ir, had petitioned elision the ei.j.e, of the 111 ..ti'n•— rtst Petitions from Ireland spina, the Catholic Claims were sitasseroos. and respectably signed ; and "b 4 liblGer bad been said of poiiinn, with o differesst prayer, he would still areintaiii, that the majority, at the Irish Protnia•to were ag.inst conceitaion.- 1 Ile did not mean to throw any refection on-thri Pra.l lestants•bn petitioned its fovo•r el theirltoosatiCstho. lie brethren. Hr admitted their slumbers tied rropecta• Wily. bet it ought not to be forgotten from what quarter the Petitions principally came. At any time it was well known, that People could he got to sign Petitions who did not well understand their object.— At prenut. the Petitions principally tame from the South and West of behead, where the Rennin Ca. tholic popelsion greatly predominated, when the Protestants were few, and in the power of the Ca tholics; sad where their motives in petitioning, therefore, could be easily appreciated. On the other bend, the Petitions whist the Roman Globulin errs sent up from greet bodies of men In the North of the bland. It was to the North that we were to look for the feeling of the Irish Proteetents, sod fur the most enlightened opinion on the cows lips' before the Ibex That part of the Island was colonized ender ,lame! I.; it had ever since been advancing in every kind of improvement, and had made she greatest primroses in civilizolion, commerce, nfitteremst, and wealth.--These ad• trances were owing to the exemption of that pert of the island from the effects of the Penal Code, which had berberized therm of Ireland. To this valuable and intelligent portion of the population, he would refer for the opinions of the Irish Protestants, sod he found on the table, petitions from Monaghan, signed by 40,000 ; from Anisim, signed by 19,000; from Fermanagh, signed by 9,003; and from other districts or counties, with nerneroes signatures, paying that the claims of the Homan Catholics might not be seceded Loud eats of I Thor, Ater, haw !) —The.* petitions originated in no hostility to the Catholics, nor were they pro. moted alone by theme in the inferior ranks of society, tense prejudices might be sepposei to be excited on the subject of religion; but they proceeded from peo ple who professed intolerant principles, the great body of whom were invited by the leading Gentle men to ewes their opinions from the salutary wish of preserving establishments, which further cones. sion to Catholics they conceived might shake. The most important Petition in favour of the Catholic Claims comes from Dublin ; bet it ought to be re collected, that the signatures to that document were, those not snit of the inhabitants of the city, but of Gentlemen from all parts of the cottony; and after all, were not so numerous as those of the adverse Petitions. I Ile did not think, when theso things were taken into consideration, that there could be any doubt as to the sentient', of the majority of Irish Protestants oat this momentriaa question, and he need not inrulcete bow materially their opposition affected the policy of con. cessioo. • A second objection which he had to the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman arose from the conduct and feelings of the Catholics themselves. It would be recollected, that the Petitions for concession were all silent on the subject of safeguards or securi ties. With regard to these severities, then had been three very different opinions maintained by those who Weed In the policy of additional concession. S , .rne thought that no securities were necessary for the Pro testants, end that no restrictions on the Catholics ought to be imposed ; others hut some were races. slay and might he devised ; and others still agreed on the specific terms which would satisfy their scru ples. Nobody could feel greater respect than be (Sir. 1. Foster) for those woo brought forward the Bull in 1813, granting the Catholic political privi. !meson certain conditions of security. They did all they could to protect us from anticipated danger; but he was free to say that their proposals gave no satisfac. Hoe to a single Protestant that he Peer is.. The measure was not satisfactory to the Roman Catholic Clergy themselves. They declared In an enanionoes Synod, that thes could not 'concur in the proposed arrangement without interring the guilt of schism, and that they wool', sooner die than submit to 1L— (I/ear, hear ! )—What then would hare been the consequence of passing this Bell. by which the gisisture would have alarmed the Protestant, by con. I - elision, and inflicted martyrdom on the Irish Roman Catholic Bishops, by demanding securities? If the Right Hon. Gent. could now come forward with proposals more satiofsclory, let him declare them to the House; but let him not ask for a Committee, in which Ise had no deisite propositions to make, and which might agitate the country with vogue hopes or alarms, without loading to any certain result.— He was as sensible as any man of the scimitars of conciliating the Rosen Catholic Clergy of Ireland. That hotly bad greet power over their Prop'', and could give or takeaway their effeetions from any Go vernmeet. If the attachment of the People to ea. lining establishments was to be destroyed, it would be through the alienation of their Priests; and if it was to be gained, it would be by a plan of con dilating this influential body. Ile would suggest, that the plan for scoring the friendship and sibyl. once of this alienated body was not by a Veto, 'bet a Vol.; not by imposing modellers. on the election of their Bishop., bet by eatesoling to them a stipendiary provision.—(lleor, hear !) He would not desile for Ike Crown the poser of including Episcopal Candidates from their Sees, bet to faiteerve the Sp... fitted with person, pleasing to IM Craws.—(llear U—Soch a measure as this afield bate more effect than ell the Veto., oath of ahjeroa ties and supremacy pet logether.—[lleac, hear !) was 'flail!, however, that the measure world now be impracticable. There wag no term of abomination *hide had been applied to the Vein winch would tint be applied to this proposition, :aid he was sensible to what reproaches he was Imposing himself by making it.--It would be described at a vile plan to entrap the senility, and to destroy the respectable character of the Clerity-----Ile 'belle's , . therefore, that the House might as well threat a burning torch into a barrel of gunpowder and expect tranqoillity, SS POW loto a Committee 50 discuss penjee,s for securing the affections of the flo. man Catho is Clergy, if additions' means were granted abase of injuring our estobtiahmerst.. For the beers it of shop oho had not been present on former di.• Conine if the question, he might meetioe some (acts 0 in the progress of to terosion. It was, as !feted (rely by tn. we., llorinurehte Gentlemen, new essiet 40 } Pert Since we been o relit the dinar of 1 1. 0 Is 45 ' ei.trir • he Ramon Corn. , lies of Irelted. In 177 A, I 'he . ramie Feral n Cody 111•4 repealed, end the Coke lies, with revisal tothe right of proierry , were , lured 1 in the some sit ua ti on w i t h t h e i r Pros'esrent brownie/8. Of this messier* he highly approved. In 1752 hey ! Alit been to aspire to political peeler. At that limo 4 Catholic Convocation selleting in Debits.. yelled I , frier thin's as the fen event of their &gram* —. Piro, fun udiul4en to all legal honours; lectinsek the capacity of being Grand Jurors; third, eligibility to the Magistracy ; and foorth, the twill'. Fran. chile. This last they have received, and by the 401, freehold, the culTrage may he esti to be almost eniverial in Ireland. Cite them, therefore, the power of einttng Homan Catholic Mead era, end you kindle ✓eligious enthusiasm. the worst ingredient in a po. peter, ehecriesn.—(llcor, hear! front the Oppoeitiois Bereckes]-;•The Honourable Gentleman professed NA 16 known the object of this cheer ; he was min it estold Dot prneerd from the 'riot' Nie-nters. Mai this was periled, they seemed still as dissetisli d es over. Two years afterwards, they claimed admission to Parliament so lewdly, that Lord Fitswillent, who was at that time Lord Lieutenant, on his return to Eaglets& said, in the British Pediment, .. If theit domande were not granted, the country would be throws hits a rebollioe." This habit of being *sm. holdened by eitseevsion to snake *sew demised, was not peculiar to the (.tholics of Ireland, but was 11l necessary part of the Lamers character. At pre sent th..y only sought for elieibi!ity ; grant them that, and they would loos claim possessioe. As an Littleton he world not COra,idEr the qaestioa as it regarded the whole of line empire, hot es it was limited to biked. Suppose ihr w . fourths of the Members of Parliament, three.fourths of the Grari.l Jurors of Counties, three.foortha Of the Magistrates were so be Roman Catholics, sehieli was the proportions that class bore to the Protest. ante; after gaining so much inlluence, would they not demand dietetic, power ? Wou;il they not re. quire that ell the establidirrents ref the kingdom should he modelled to their adrauts4e?—Would net the ecclesiastical part of their community claim their share of prierleee, and demand I' e establishments now in the hands of the Protestants ? Ho did not know, indeed, if In such circumstances esclusinia from the emoluments of the Church could be do. fended. But it might be said. that, conoomod with the British Empire, the Cstnolics of Ireland Compo•ed a sixth of it. WooSil they not Id that cue, then, desire a separation from Greet Britain, as the memos of seeming their mood. envy? Ile apprehended their two clingers from t h e grant of the resew Claims: the sue the overthrow of the Irish Protestant churCh ; end the other tho separation of Ireland frog the Empire. He could not state which would take place first, bet hods ha thought in the supposed ciresiastleigos would soot ocCer. There was soother danger is hi.b threatened es as regarded our relations with a Foreign Power the Pope claimed supremacy of a part a the Easpiret. In Ireland ; end the rigidity of allegiance • was as bodk in his mind, es the ritality of nations. lie would gel no feather ihto the osihject. Ile retied his oppnsitioat to Iher Elation on the dangers which threatened oar establishmenti. The onion of Church and stale had ale ways been prbdurrive of peace and internal tranquil. lily, while their separation led sometimes so war, sod always threatened strife antennfesiors. In the timm of Heir); VIII; though otherwise a tyrannical reign, the effecting of this onion had been productive of great adventeges; their separation under Queen Idery•had led to rebellion and persecution ; it wad restored again ender Elisabeth; it hod Leen again broken in the reign of James II , and permanently established at the glorious Retulufloa. It bad grown up with our coil freedom, end was necessary for ill security. It had given us quiet, ;list as e theological dominos, bet as a principle of civil safe ly It lends to the Government all its force, and destroys the an.birion of contending geol. it had, in all times been the hope and security of the em. pire. Mr. CROKER explained. He had not said that the law was so clear as to preclude the necessity of the present motion, but that It wag so doubtful as to melte it nee P burl MOCNT-CHARI.Ei said, th t if on better arguments than those which he had jest heard could be brought against the motion, he thruiht the Mese would agree to a Committee. He had been 'otiose to bear the Hight Hon. Gentleinan, became he ea peeled from him an outline of every thing that could be said against the Catholic Clain., and had suspend. sod his judgment till he beard him ; bet if any al. sbt existed before, it was new removed. The Right lion. Gent. bad dwelt mach upon the Petitions against the mettles; but he would beg leave to say. that Peti tions hers were nothing. The question was eat like on. of imps, where individual, could deliver a littser opinion from kilos ledge than Ike Government, hat one of policy, which the Ilksumr would di, , de upon its nun information. In agreelag to the mo tion and doing justice to the Petitioners, the Hausa would create a common Interest in the common good, and would make what wit valuable to all dear to each. Tease *he refused the grant of common tut eve Catlt•Nrs violated the principles at twit and religious liberty, while they vainly die. claimed tint 'Pawns of persecution ; for he could give sin other name to a civil diarpedification on ac count of religion, when that disqualification was ant necessary for the general safety.—(llear !) The difference between the Resign Corthol;c4 and PiteoStanta wall not so mach its might have hese imagined at first sight ; et lee., not so much as to in. tellers with the discharge of their nolitiell duties.— They had bosh the lame liiiral deities to dorchaige, the rime po:itical interests to defend. It was and, in objection to It e motion, that we had restated the Pope, and rendered his spiritual indigence sore for. imitable ; but iu doing so, we had bet raised him to more than or as mach political importance'. any of hi. neighbours, south or north. We had net do to tore for him than for the Date of Tenney nr King of Naples; though we might hare restarted h ow In his authority, it wa• beyonJ hiatn•n •wer to restore the former aye... over which he tratlt.rea ld erl• Another srensmeot ass founded span the seppned a reedy e lty of aiet A lie pp rits un t . s .,, C ti s o th f o i lic : i 4 .. t. ttr iv re was