The Statesman. — London, England, 1818-05-15 00:00:00

r!",r! nimmoß ,•/ 11 ""•70 7 1 1 IWO", ~~. paper money, which no country ever supp o rte d b u t t his, and by which this country had 'offered the deepest imjaries--circumstances of this descsiptioseit iris t h a t had affected the morality of the Peeple of England. He would mention one fact, Illustrative of the loss sustained by small tradesmen in town', tooovence of the practice of forgery. A tricks. man in the parish of St. Mary.le-honne was re. quired to pay a five pound Bank of England note, elleged to have been received from his daughter.— Ile resisted. The case was brought to trial in the Mershalsea Court. The fact was, that the. charge was founded in a mistake, proceeding from the re isemblknce of his daughter to Emma Connor, so no- 1 torious in the annals of the crime. This had since been discovered. The man was cast in the suit, and condemned to pay not only 51. for the note, but also 231. costs, losing in all 281. from the re. bemblance of his child to an utterer of forged notes. —[Hear, hear, hear !] —On many occasions people would not resist such charges, from the up. prehension of suspicion; bat that was the smallest Inn of the evil. He would now proceed to the mote immediate part of the subject. It was absurd to say 'thin the Bank ought to be exempt from the inter. Terence of the Legislature ; as well might his Ma-. jesty's Mint claim the exemption. The evil to : the reduction of which his motion was directed, had beau growing 20 years. The Bank had not taken, precautions againssit (he wished not to be misunder. stood); they had taken abundant precautions to se. cure themselves, but not to guard the Public. The liability of the Peblic to be deceived and plundered, was now as great as io the year 1797. The Public, 'therefore, bad a right to enquire whether that pro. seeded from unavoidable causes, or the carelessness and supineness of the Bank. Enquiry was necessary to direct our judgment in time to come on the pro priety or impropriety of continuing the restriction on cash payments. It was necessary to acquit the Go. vernors of the Bank from suspicion in the eyes - of the community ; it was necessary, in order to examine whether the shedding of blood might not be restrained, and to pot a stop to tbat carnage which was a disgrace to the country.—(//ear !)—Enquiry was material to the lives, property, innocence, and morality of the People. He by no means intended to impute improper conduct to the Bank—hut lie could not suppose the Governors exempt from the frailties of human nature, or the habits common to men in situations like theirs —one of the strongest of which was to be attached to the usual routine of business, and averse to entertain. in any new projects. From conversations he bad held with many scientific men since the last discossiort of the subject, be entertained much more sanguine hopes than be had then, of the possibility of at least mitigating (he was sorry he could not say removing) the crime. In America there was a paper currency to the amount of 2() Of 30 millions. She was the se cond country in the universe, as to extent of paper currency, as she was in shipping and commerce ; yet there, in none of the provinces, nor by the general laws of the country, was forgery a capital crime.-- The consequence was, that the national and provin. cial banks, not being protected by the terror of the gib:;et, had been -impelled to invent, and did in. vent, very effectual obstacles to the imitation of their notes. But had not the Bank of England neglect. ed every scientific ski? Ile had been lately told by a man of science, that a boy but six months apprentice to an engraver could imitate the Bank of England notes, so as to deceive, not the Bank (they took good care of that), but the body of the People. He had heard that the formation of the Bank of England notes required scarcely any exertion of art.—[//ear !J —The reasoning of the Bank seemed to be, since the crime cannot he eradicated, since it is impossible utterly and entirely to prevent the for gery of notes, no step whatever ought to be taken. — He thought differently ; be thought that the smallest diminution of the practice would be the greatest na tional benefit.—( Hear, hear I)—The increase of for gerieX produced an increase of other crimes, for ,1 mat the nature of them to multiply one another. But the crime of fortery not only diffused depravitisround it, but spread its toils for those that would sever be tempted by other crimes. Other crimes for their execution required boldness and strength, hut this allured to its commission women, children, old men, and persons of a certain degree of education. It was with surprise be would hear of any desirous of opposing his motion, and would therefore at once move— ' That rt Select COmmittee he appointed to enquire into the aeons of were eternally preventing the growth of Forgeriey, and report their übservatiotw to the House. The motion having been put from the Chair — The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER thought the lien. sod Learned Gentleman had not proposed that mode of enquiry whose result would be most satisfactory to the Rouse. The enquiry was long, laborious, and difficult, demanding more conStant attention, and patient assiduity, than could be reasonably expected from a Committee of the House; besides, much information would be neces. nary in the course bf it, and an examination of artists must be carried on. His object, however, in rising, was, not to oppose the motion, bet to propose an amendment for an Address of the House to the Crown for the appointment of a Commission, with a view to obtain a more complete enquiry, and a more satisfactory result, than could be bad •in the other way. With respect to the improvements spoken of, he had considered the subject himself, and the more he did so, the more difficulties presented themselves. In every plan that he had seen, de fects either struck himself, or had been pointed out to him by others: no radical remedy was to be expected. Before be came to the proper object of his rising, he could not forbear making a few re.. marks on the statements made by the Hon. and Learned Mover, regarding the progress of tIMP, crime, and he regretted that such exaggeratrid, l pictures had been drawn of its increase. Ors the growth and increase of the crime, he must , beg leave to submit to the House the deductions he had made himself. From the statements of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, one would be led to suppose, that, before the suspension of cash payments, the crime was almost unknown. But the House would see with surprise, en referring to the papers, that executions for the crime of forgery had been as general in the middle of the last cautery as at the present day. In the years 1749, - /10, and 51, the number of emotions under that head was • :711(t . Alp, • • nineteen in London and Middlesex; whereas, in the last three years it was but 18. The number of con victions for forging and uttering Bonk•noies, tumu. tug\ them to be forged, was 110 in the three yesre 1811, 12, and 13. In 1815, 16, and 17, it Wag but 88, leaving, a diminotioa in the three last et ,2.—[Here the Right Hon. Gentlemen went - tbioogh a variety of other details, to show that for gery had not Increased of late years, while coining had.]--lie thought the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's reasoning was extremely (*Racine', in supposing that a relent to cash payments would necessarily cause a diminution of forgery.-- It would be seen that the crime of forgery bad not increased in the same proportion as other crimes since the suspension of cash payments, while the crime of coining had increased in a greater degree. What bad taken place was not imputable to any negligence or want of proper precaution on the part of the Bank Directors. He feared that forgery was a natural consegeence of education, combined with craft and wickedness, and that the growth of it was to be traced tp the extension of learning and the 'great advance of trade and commerce. ft that ;cir cumstance rather made it a stronger, iy .tp isse ) every care, and make every e ff ort to iminish it. Thinking that that end would be best attained by the measure he contemplated, he would propose the following Amendment— • . That this House do present no humble Address, to his R_o,! Hirano the Prince Regent, praying that his Royal Rielt. to issue o re nt te a Col e iss l i s o i n n un: e r the . tlitt b i r S:a ra l c io ilw a li prioint Co nem of pieveating the Forgery of the Notes of the Winn; liegbao and Private Banks, liad other negotiable Securities. - The question having been put on the origins! motion— Sir C. MORDAUNT thought a Select Committee preferable to the coarse paint!d out by the Right lion. Goodman. He was of opinion that abundance of information might be obtained by it. He alluded to the strong statements on the subject iti the Bir mingham Petition, and concluded by dechaing, that he would most cordially support the motion: , - Mr. BENNETT congratulated the country en the triumph which his Hon. and Learned Friend had a few days since achieved over the Right Hon. Gentle. man and the Bank Directors. He begged at the same time to state, that within the last three months as many prosecutions had been commenced for the Forgery of Bank.uotes as the Right lion. Gentleman had enumerated during the period to which he had alluded. In 1811, the number of persons indicted was 43; in 1812 it was 67; in 1813 it was 97 ; in 1814 it was 63 ' • in 1815 it was 71 ; in 181 6 it was 123; In 1817 it was 162; and for the last three months amounted to no less .than 112.—[Hear, bear!]—ln former times conviction was followed by execution ; but the Bank assumed a dispensing power, Rod withdrew the capital pert of the charge at their own discretion. During a period of three years,2oo persons had been induced to plead giiilty to having forged notes in their possession, the cases of all of whom would have been of a capital -nature at the period when the Right Hen. Gentleman commenced his comparison. The number of executions was, therefore, quite a fallacious criterion' of the pre• valence of the eritne, which he had no 'doubt , would be mere effectually repressed by laws which would not terrify the injured from becoming protecet ors, and be more congenial to the humane spirit of a civilised age. The Hon. Gentleman • here com mented with much severity on the conduct of the Bank in the cases of several individuals convicted of, or under prosecution for, this offence. The 'Oedi. I nary of Newgate had told the Committee, of which he(Mr. Bennett) was a member, that w hen the Sacra. ment was about to be administered to those who were in confinement, the persons who had been convicted of forgery on the Bank felt so indignant against their prosecutors, that be did not think them - in that state of peace towards mankind that would justify him in administering it to them. At the time of execution, the utmost compassion was felt by the spectators for the wretched sufferers, and the greatest indignation against the law which bad doomed them to suffer; hut, above all, ao indignation against the selection which bed been made of their particular cases. Ile felt it his duty to concur in the motion of his Hon. and Learned Friend, and he trusted that it would receive the support of every Member in the House. Mr. S. THOR NTO N declared, that it was alwa)s the practice of the Bank Directors studiously to in vestigate every case of Forgery, with a view to enter tain where lenity ought to be extended, and where prosecution ought to be followed up. As to the in. diction of punishment, or the grant or mercy, after conviction, the Bank had nothing to do with sects proceedings. Mr. HUSKISSON supported the amendment, 'as l the most direct and expeditions mode of attaining the object in view. Messrs. BENNETT and lIUSKISSON mutually, explained. Sir S. ROMILLY said, it was a great inducement. with him to vote for the motion of his Hon. and. Learned Friend, because he did not believe there. masted any disposition on thopart of the lion. Gen. tleaten opposite to institute any adequate enquiry. . lie could not help thinking that his Hon. Friend. (Mr. Bennett) had not been fairly treated, as his ob-, serrations had been made the sehject of much misre presentation. There was one strong objection to. the manner in which the Bank conducted their pro secutioos, that pardon was held oat to the persons ac cused who pleaded guilty. SuCh a discretion.mest be attended with mischievous consequences. It was now confessed that the offence of Forgery most he considered in a less mitigated point of vie w than it, was formerly. The frequency of the commission dad chested, in the opinion of the country, the moral chiritier of theteihrte. The House were aware that a number of perform either suffored the offence to be pracilstd ,egainst thenaelves, than prosecute, when the pnniidiment of death was the consequence. It watt idleiisiiiik, that . under the present system people would iidt criticise the selections made in the punish. meet of individuals prosecuted for Forgery. How ever jettifiable the discretion exercised, still It woisktl 'be impossible to prevent individuals from thinking that such discretion was In mail lustancesimproell Or enteral: exerted. il tay.: ," General GASODIGN. observed, that the ' Oulk. city Of semis to sere of reinedy wes now onivetsal admitted. Tcptiope it ha* tilt'. Bank was kbrsi bible, si they never evtuced'any dispositionlioi adlYpt ~-• • . _ THE §tArrOkAiti. .._-- .} "., .:. - ~^ a the means. If they were anxious to call i►► their notes of .1818, they might have adopted the same &terve; in the Master of the Mint did, when he called Lu rhe base _safer, namely, to appoint stations where ' gold oroeld be exchanged for these notes. He should vote for the Committee of the House rather than • Commission. Mr. MANNING said, he had to were the House, that the Bank exercised . the painful duty of ptosecolisi with the most serious consideration. As to the selection of persons found guilty for punish ment, the Bank Directors never interfered. It was not for their own interest or security, that the Bank interposed; though the whole espence were paid oat of the fends of the Corporation. 'rheir antiety was to save the Public harmless. The Bank were compelled, by the increase of the crime, to consign the offenders to the doe coarse of the law. In 1811, the number of persons engaged in the various means of passing and uttering Forged Notes, amounted to 33I—in 1818, they amounted to 1,300. The Hon. Director proceeded into a detail of other statements, adding, with respect to what bad been alleged as to, the detention of Forged Notes by the Bank, that, when presented, it arose from the fact of their having ascertained, that the word forged had beets expunged by a chemical process, and tisi note again uttered.— Though the note was detained, the Bank was always -ready to give an undertaking. . Sir piccorr contended, that though there was cisofessedly a great increase of forgeries in the years 1816 and 1817, there was also a correspondent increase of offences of every kind, from many causes, in the country. If the House of Commons by their Committee, or the Crown by its Commis sion, could prevent their continuance , __ the country would owe them great obligations. No persons, he was convinced, would feel the value of the service 'more than the Directors of the Bank of England.— But from the difference of opinion that prevailed, he must ask what coons ought the Bank to adopt ? Either they most prosecute for forgeries or they must not. If, as he believed it would be allowed that forgery was an offence—then it must be prosecuted— aod if prosecuted, from the frequency of the com mission, a selection either for punishment or pardon must be made, unless it were the opinion of Ho- Pourable Gentlemen that the Bank should hang, hang, hang !—lf Hon. Gentlemen thought that it ought not to constitute a capital offence--if they thought so, why not at once move for the repeal of the law? [Hear, hear !]—Why did they mispend their time and discuss the conduct of the Bank Directors, when, according to their own showing, the evil was in the law ? Mr. WM. SMITH thought difficulties existed at every side of the question. He was ready to give the Directors of the Bank credit for the best inten tions. Still he thought that there was one corrective that they might have afforded, merely to give the Peblic the knowledge of the criterion by which the Bank Clerks were able to distinguish the genuine Notes of the Bank. Mr. CANNING preferred the appointment of a Royal Commission, as the mode most likely to prove .effectual. The proposition of the last speaker it was impossible to hear sod not smile; for how could the Bank afford the Public the means of ascertaining the forged note, without assisting the parties committing the Forgeries with means to direct their mischievous operations in future? All that had ever yet been sag gested was, to render their plates or impressions ex tremely elaborate and difficult of imitation. • Sir J. MACINTOSH, in reply, expressed his satisfaction at finding it admitted upon all shies that something should be done upon this subject. At the same tinie, he regretted that his Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir A. Piggott) should attempt to divert the attention of the House to a charge which he supposed to have been made against the Book of England. For his own part he had made no charge against them, nor had his lion. Friend (Mr. Bennett). It WAS true that he had stated what to him appeared the necessary effects of the present system, bat that was not, properly speaking, an attack upon the Bank. It had been said that he had exaggerated the increase i of forgeries, and a statement had been made in order to disprove his opinion. The plausibility of that statement consisted in its being confined merely to executions, without including prosecutions and com mitments. It was also defective in this, that it limited the comparison to short intervals of time. He denied that secrecy of investigation was not consistent with a Committee of the House of Commons, or that their operations must necessarily he very slow. On the coattail, he thought they might be just as secret, and far more expeditious, than a Commission. A Commission would probably lead to a delay of six •or seven months longer. It had been said betire, that—" Wretches hang, that Jurymen May dine." — A Committee might Report in a month or less, would they prefer the Commission, which. must necessarily be' more protracted ? The proper Commissioners :were 'Gentlemen of that House, who might act upon the materials afforded by scientific men. He was convinced that au investigation by Commissioners of the Crown would never remove the mistrusts and jealousies of the Public. The Members of that Hoes, would be influenced by motives, by hopes and fears respecting theirconstituents, which could not operate upon Commissioners appointed by the Crown. . if the House of Commons did not maintain it firm, and ho would even say a proud attitude towards the. Crown, for the protection of the People, in a caw, which came home.to the business end bosoms of all . men, they would alienate from themselves that se specs which it was• their interest to cherish. Aftele all .he had !wird, be still remelned of opinion that et Committee would be mere likely to gain, the ends they had in view, and he wailles more desirous to press it in the present inittence - , as the Directors of the Bank had egawaeds po .ansietz about one coarse in preferencd o, t Shtlrer. The lima then ilividtd - • . . • For the it abridgment . 108 Fur the . . 63 •." • hfejettle • —44 When we were te-admitted to the Gallery, we found the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER on hi• legs, wig an Address for a Royal . Commission.-- epparsinilg,had arisen upon certain I estenditie the eateiry to the notes of country rs,. and miler entietted negtodible securities. it Alse CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER' said, that be wished the investigation to be general, z "~: ics th• uch foe :ha' 0 0 Ig it Of abl• or ---- , --••••-• .:- .r Y. - --1•. sumnips -- !!••••"..■,7'.. -~ and not directed merely against the ootes of the Hardt of England.. Mr. JOHN SMITH was hi (airier of the Corn: mission, but be sties oo pretence for empowering the Commiiiioneri to enter into the houses of bsokeri in the country, epos whoth Do torteriel hid been committed. Lord CASTLEREAGH said; that noieeh power would be communicated ; the only point to Which the labours of the Commissioners would refer; was the mode in which notes ought to Coostrucied far the per. pose of avoiding forgery. Mr. TI ERN EY Obseried; thst it Old not difficult to guess the reason why the words "sera other en greyed nesoclable seterities' i were iritirideper). The Chancellor of the Excheqeer was .alWays estreinely anxious not to give the dishiest offence to tlie . tiank of England.--Lileai.; hear !3—As the Motion Atte stood, the Directors might a tittle complain that their old friend had deserted them, or, to yds a - vulgar + phrase, bad thrown them our the bridge, by appoint. Okra) a Commission to inqUire into their privao J cliff:rm. The Commission, in hie opinion, would mere harm than good. The Right Hon. Gentle. Man might as well give it up at once, and have re. course to big old expedient, and say it vat a mis. take.--[clear !] • Mr. LYTTELTON said. there were Wrestr cases, in Which it was timelines advisable to Moire an adjournment of the House, and in order that fur. they consideration Might be given to an important a subject, he shotild make a motion td that effect.- The Hon. Gentleman then moved that time noose should adjourn. The SPEAKER was abdet to pot the qiestiori, when Mr. LYTTELTON expressed his Intention of withdrawing his motion, till the House esprirseed its opinion on the semodinent.—The tuition of adjourn. went was accordingly withdrawn. After a few words from Mr. Prritheroe, Mr. Gipps, the Chancellor of the Excheipier, and Mr. W. Smith, the House divided, when there were For the Cluuseellar of the Exchequer's motion 87 Against it . . • . •• . 5 • Majority for he motion —l2 Mr. LYTTELTON appedring determin ed to prest the motion of adjournment, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 40 pressed his willingness to withdraw his motion. The SPEAKER said, that the House bad already agreed to the motion and therefore the only way bf getting rid of the difficulty would be, to °stades the entire question, arid to propose a new one. After a few words troves Mr. W. WYNN, the address was negatived, and a nee one proposed, the object of which was the same as the former, etps that it did net extend to the country bank., bet wee limited to the Bank of England done. Mr. TIERNEY slid, he had no objection to did new Address, if the majority had no objection...-. [Hear, hear!] —What surprised him, however, *as s that the Bank Directors were placed In a most auk. ward predicament. According to the doctrine of tiro Noble Lord, they were to be considered as sespicioed persons, against whom precautions were to be takell. —( Hear, hear!) After some further observations, the Address Will ag ;reed to. M e. CANNING moved for leave to bring in s BUt to consolidate the Acts relating to Fast India Air ping.—Leave given. - )UNT LAS CAMS. COl Mr. J. P. GRAN F moved for certain Papers respectlep Lea Casas, she companion of Bonaparte in his captivity at St. He lena; who gas sent, as he understood, by the Governor, from St. Helena to the Cape of Good Hope, and sent up the country. where he was detained among savages several months, against his will. It had been asserted. that be was io sidle way cep eerned in sending papers and letters clandestinely from St. He lena. From the (we be was brought in a ship scarcely sea worthy to the mouth of the Thames; officers a erellthen beat on board under the Alien Act, and his papers were taken' fella him. He was conveyed en board another vessel to Ostend, and from thence delivered over to the Prussians, and ultimately' placed soder the surveillance of the Pollee at Frankfort. St was agaiost the abuse of the powet &keg by the Alien Act that he mow complained, became he bad mdved a clause la the Aitt imovea.ed the delivery over ed aliens into the hands of Ode rennin. The clause was rejected at the time. and be was ' then told such a case could ante happeo. It had, however. happened in the person of Count Les. Cw if the inforosatioa anreeet. The necessity of ameadiag the Act was there!ore Ile concluded with aim* as Address fur the Om- Afiespondence, Orders, ikc. in respect of the removal of this person. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that the Hon Gentleman east an odium upon the_ Oo.eris . meat at the Cape, which was too. ed fo r instead of Lame lig seat awe* snotages, he was, in fact. lodged. among the servants in the Governar'st Country-home. ith respect io seeding him to Ostend, he made no objectian. and be ono telly sent to the borders of i dle Rhine as being .m.fer than on the confine. of France, for his object Waite retry on ais Improper earrapoodease. Hi. paper. were all delivered to him at Frankfort. sealed ; himself . admitting they were all perfectly correct. Mr. TiEßloi EY mid it was certainly veer viordhe,4l6ll.leltell Count Las Cams arrived at Ostend two ()ens d'Alene Ambit be waiting to stile him. This was not likely is the talk df ba arrival et which no notice had been glues. He wetted that tie Noble I. .rd would be able to clear up this fact. What di testy could the Noble Lord have in producing the papers tor? The Noble Lord bad said there was no communication with any foreign Government on ibis subject—bat it was cer tainly a most extraordinary circumstance, that when a was iv rivesat Ostend in an kaglesh vessel. he should be by accident seined by Gens d'Arees waiting to apprehend him. The Papers moved for would , how that no communication bad been made to any foreign Government. to prepare it to setae Coast Las Came as won as be arrived. For the credit of the Alien Rill he hoped the Noble Lard would cons-nt to the production of these Papers. The great point to he ascertained wm, as it did No pear that he was apprehended immediately on his arrival, wboa they this was not in consequence of a comammiestloo made from this Government to anotber.tiovernmeat ? Mr. GOULBUItH confirmed the statement of the Noble • Lord, and,informed the Home that Madame Las Cams was consulted as to the place where sbs would like to meet her hus band. She preferred London; bet that not being deemed a pro per. meeting-place. she expressed a wish to meat him at tho nearest °orison. Ostend was therefore selected. Ile. V. DOUGLAS, adverting in the sodden attest of Las Cases as Ostend. pressed to know whe her any eouoimmicatiuss had been made from ibis country to foreign Governments? ' Lord cAs . ruoiliAGH denied any sorb commuoication. , -Mr. J. P. GRANT replied, that if this were so, is ere cooed be no Ensued for refusing the pen. He shoahltse glad toind that the fact had borsoa; bet bopW that a dame would be ps trodecat is the Alien Act to prevent the like treatment for the future. The gaieties was them put sad pegatived. On the motion of Lord CASFLIDIEAGH, the considered of the Royal Message was pustpdoed to to-morrow (this day). Several other Orders were theitillestponed. Tb. Report on the Irish Assessed Taxes was broaght . op, and a Rill ordered to be prepared. The Report of tee Oistille, y Act was brought up, sad a Bill ardrred to be hr..' rot in. The remaining Orders of the Day were then disposed ll', sad the House adjoitrued at Halfivist One o'C hock. A short time since, a hoe sturgeon was eavgbt in tbs river Medway, jest below the new lock; it miss. *led 6 feet 6 ittgbed,-041 •weighed nearly 100 lbs.: it /ise eshibited in Maidstone for a few brats, and aftirwards sold to a person for the trill ff: sem of who immediately seta it off to London. 1 4.01 , 311 041 " 10 .-- _ • ~. IA a ll or se be lie . I .~ 1