The Statesman. — London, England, 1818-05-15 00:00:00

~~ • • / , : • t • • • t: 'else its Independence. The Noble Lord, he ob served, had spoken be justly of the character of the present King of the Netherlands, but he would add, that it was his people who bad called him back, and invested him with the title he enjoyed. The union of Holland and the Netherlands was not a question then forbdiscassion, bet should it ever come before their Lordships, be Misted, without contrite/snit% the high authorities produced by the Noble Lord, whose opinions were, no doubt, all very correct -in reference to the times in which they were uttered, be shoed be enabled to show that the interests both of Holland and of the Netberlseds rendered such a masers necessary. If, however, the Noble Lord fancied that the disposition or loyalty of the People bad bees in the slightest degree affected by the union, he was very much mistaken,,for there was not a country is Europe where the People were more at tached to their Sovereign than in the Netherlatels.---. After the removal of then crop yoke which bad weigh ed down EarepeithePeople of that country had now the enjoyment of an 'salient Constitution, ma terially improved by acts which could not have been the melt of any foreign influence. The Noble Lord bad spoken of the former policy'of this country and of Holland, in respect to the admission of strangers; but he (Lord Liverpool) would say it for Great Bd. tale and for Hollandy a country to which, neat to ~ h is own, he was Most attached of any in Europe, that their policy had - to no respect altered; they each still held their doors open to the foreigner who 3 came in the oppenness of frieodsbip, or who sought for abetter from state or religious persecution. But ie offering hospitality, was there no difference to be bed between the meritorious or the evil-disposed ? Of coed it be supposed that the State, like indivi deals, had no power of shutting its doors against the incendiary and the robber ? The principle of re. moving foreigners by the sole power of the Crown bad bees 'treacly frequently recognised by solemn treaties, whereby Stales, and this State among others, bad eugeged to deliver op individuals. The Noble lord seemed to him to have made out no case to jpstify the motion: he should therefore give it his -; Tim be Fred of •CARNARVON conceived that the ..-ettesons presented by the Noble Es rI opposite (Liver. 4mo!) did tint justify the proposed measure of the ,/Mien Bill. If his arguments, founded on a wean ',shy eti,ittg from the policy of other countries, bad ny force, it should have the effect of confiding to Ministers, not a temporary• power, but of arming them with a general and perpetual authority.— (Hear, heart) Lord HOLLAND briefly replied, observing that, w h en th e Alien Bill came before their Lordships, he should, he trusted, be enabled to show that the mea sure was extremely inhospitable, and inconsistent with the character of the country. The Noble Lord had seemed to t hink that he had represented the Peo ple of Holland as discoutended with their Govern ment. The fact, he was convinced, wasessentially the contrary ; and he believed that no People bad a better right to be contented with their Constitution. —[Bear, hear, hear.!] The motion was put and negatived without a divi siou.—The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Gen. HART gave notice, that on Tuesday next be would submit to the House a motion, relative to the 54th of the King tespecting Levies on Town Lands in Ireland. WATER-WORK COMPANIES. Sir J. GRAHAM presented a Petition from several inhabit. nods of the Purish of Mary.le.brinne.agaiust the Bill for allow ing the Parish to supply itself with Water; which. in his opi nion. Was certainly one of the wildest ',Caftan evil' entertained by man s although he had been unable to penuade the Parish to relinquish it. He trusted, however, that it would be yet with• down. Adverting to several communicating* with the differ ent Water-work Companies by which the Parish was at present supplied. he declared that be found them ready loafed a great supply of Water on very moderate tern—fur remuneration. in. doe t. so small, that he was persuaded no other set'of individeals would be found disposed to imitate them. la this opi he he Ives sore the House would agree with him, when be told them that those Companies were sati.ffed with a profit of 4 per cent. tri.their capital. Under these circumstance Ise trusted that the Moose would not sanction Me measure in progress, even if it were persisted in. Mr. PORTM AN said a few words in a low tone of voice, the purport of which appear*/ to be to express his belief that the Sill in question would be withdrawq. Mr. P. MOORE warmly protested again.t she principle of allowing a Parish Vestry to convert a Parish into& Joint Stock %Voter-work Company. Glen. THORNTON maintained that the Public were at the merry of the Water-work Companies, and suggested the ap poimment of a Committee to enquire into the subject. Mr. II ARV NY thought that the Public had derived coati. durable benefit from the rivalry of the different Com; antes. bqt did not wish that it should be carried in far as to produce (as had •omettines occurred in the c•tuspvtition of stage.a/adt proprietors) the ruin of all parties. He was persuaded that 1 1 1; could never be in the coutemplation of the Legislature to allow a Select Vestry to make the whole parish to which it belongcd a Water-work Company. The Patti. a was then alleged to lie no the tables as were al;ti two other Petitions, presented by Sir J. GRAHAM, of a sionier kind—the one from the We,t Middlesex Water.works . C o mpany, the other from 4 Chelsea Water-works Company., Mr. MG:v DY presented a Petition from the Manufacraress aid" M erchants of Derby, pra- ing that no addition might be made to the duties on the importation of Canna Wool ; and Mr. Ils,mertoo axis sem Petitiees frees Lancashire t o tbesause-effect. —Ordered to lie on t e table. ' Mr. Oresented n estimate of the expence of building glebe-looses, Ike. to Leland. — Ordered to be printed. Mr. M K presented a Petition from the Provost aod Fel ines of King's College, Aberdeen. proving t at the House - would guard their right; to Copies of New Pahlicatioas.—Or dered to be printed, and tw be referred to the Committee de the Copyrights bill. MR. 0088 .?T. Lord COCHRANE said he held in his band a Peti tion on a subject as interesting es any that had ever been considered within the walls of that. House. 1 1 / 4 proceeded from an individual who had been induce& to exile himself front his coentry in consequence those notorious and Ilagrent acts of spies and ha formers, by whick the Legislature had been ezcited! to adopt the mm 410040 the last Session of Partin.. ment. This ilititten referred to two documents — affidavits swats) before the Major of Philadelphia, whose hsod-itititing was attested by the British Con sul. One of tbose affidavits was signed by William Stevens, a person who was implicated in the various transactions that had induced Parliament to consent to the Saspension of the Constitution; the other • signed by Chattel Kendall, who was also implicated in the same transactions. These affidavits placed the whole matter in the most clear and explicit point of view, showing that these transactions were attribut able to the machinations and efforts of the spies and itildfmen, and chiefly of Oliver. They described in deed such pr diets on the part of Oliver, that he (Lord Cochrane) was petseaded the House would 'eel that it was hsrumbent on them to institute an en goirj into Ilse ttabk.ct. 'rue propriety and necessity lir thought it necessity to leave the votively .when the. Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act was in the con temptation of the Legislature. •It was not net: for him to enter into the 'object matter of it, bock prayed the House to take into consideration the an. netted public documents. It stated various matters ; and among others the conviction of the Petitioner that it was in the contemplation of Ministers to esti- i blish a kind of superintendence or censorship over • the Press. The SPEAKER observed, that the Noble Lord was perhaps not aware that the appendis containing the affidavits could not with propriety be presented. The House might receive the Petition, but would ant receive any appendis. He thought it important to mention this to the Noble Lord at present, es ' if be had rightly collected the wear of the Noble Lord's observations, the Noble Lord had referred to pipers entitled to the Petition. It wnuld be few the Noble Lord to consider how far the Petition would be is. telligible without the affidavit,. Lord COCHRANE replied, tliag be weold, not. say that the word " annexed" occurred in the Pe* tion, although it certainly.. referred to the affidavits to which he had alluded. The Petition was then brought up, anti read by the Clerk. It was from Mr. Cobbett, of Botley, in the county of Southampton, now resident in the State of New York, professing the greatest respect and veneration for the character of the House, but repro. bating the system of treachery and cruelty which had for years been carried on through the intervention 01 spies and informers, and stating that the Petitioner bad recently seen in Philadelphia two individuals, the one of the name of William Stevens, of Nottingham, the other of Charles Keodal, of London, who had communicated to him a variety of facts relative to the conduct of one Oliver. Those facts had been duly attested on oath before the Mayor of Philadelphia, and were attached to his Pedal's. The Petition pro. 'seeded to discuss at considerable length the circum stances which gave rise to the prosecutions at Derby; severely censoring the conduct of Colonel Fletcher, as well as that of Mr. Cross on the trials; disclaim. lug the imputation by the latter, that the Publica tions of the Petitioner had been calculated to infante the minds of the People; expressing the apprehen sions of the Petitioner (from the avowal contained in two Ministerial Prints), that some measure was in contemplation for imposing further restrictions on the Lisierty of the Press; and concluding by playing the House to institute an enquiry into the real na ture of those transactions which had brought the un fortunate Brandreth and others to the block. On Lord CoCHRSPies moving that the Petition should lie no lho /Ale— Mr. BATHURST rose. and said he apprehended it was impossible to conceive that the House Coed receive this informal Petition.—[Hear, hear!] — So far as he could collect the object of the Peti tioner, it was not to colt the attention of the House to any specific grievance of his own, but to that of other individuals. who might, if they pleased, sub mit their complaints directly from themselves in the usual way.— [f/ear!]—lf they had any abuse to complain of they could do it by a direct Petition, and not by documents annexed to that of another. — Now, as to the time at which these individual , left the country, and the motive ahich led to their esile. all that he should say was tr.is—that one of them went away a considerable time before the coercive Ac's alluded to acre introduced, and the other some time after. But besides the informality in the Petition, he bad also another and a stronger ob jection to its reception, namely, that it was made the • vehicle of a libel on the judgment and talents of Mr. Cross, who bad assisted in conducting the defences at Derby, and also on a most worthy Ma gistrate, Colonel Fletcher.—[llear, hear !]-- Un der such circumstances, he really hoped the ruble Lord would see the propriety of withdrawing the Petition, without any further discussion upon the subject.—( Hear!) Lord COCHRANE said, that his motive in pre senting the Petition was to lay before the House the very important matter which it contained and allotted to. He particularly wished to have the documents accompanying the Petition read, as they related, in an extraordinary and explicit manner, to the coo duct of a spy of whom so much bad been said and so little done. As it appeared, however, that the coarse he proposed was informal, be had no objec tion to withdraw the Petition, not with any view of immediately presenting another, but for the pur. pose of informing the individuals of the formal course, by distinct Petitions, to which they most resort to get at the ear of the Hattie. gr. WYNN wished to know whether, if the., Petition were withdrawn after being read at the table, the Journals would contain any record of its contents? The matter being so objectionable, he thought no re• curd of it should be suffered on their Journals. The SPEAKER said, the fact of the Petition being withdrawn must be entered gro their Journals. But be apprehended a short notice would be a sufb ent record that the Petition was withdrawn by con sent Of the House. Mr. WYNN said, that he would most strongly object to such charges as the Petition contained against individuals should be recorded on the Jour. nals of the Homo., without the parties having either the power of defending themselves, or proving the falsehood of the charge.—tficer The Petition was then withdvawn. RRITISH MUSEUM. Mr. BANK'S presented i Pellagra from thehe Trustees of the British Museum, compiiinlog of inadequacy of their fonds, and preying for Parlia mentary oid.—Ordered to lie on the table. On the motion of Mr. BANKES Accounts veto, ordered . to he laid before the H o us e of the Incomol, and Elpenditere of the British Miseem down to the , leer 1817 ; of the charges of the Mus eum in the y ear' '1818; end of the number of persons admitted to ralew it &Wing the fast seven years. sCOCCH CMIIIIIIISIOSERS , Lord A. HAMILTON, parsoont to notice, moved that an humble Address should be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, praying that be would be pleased to order to be laid before the .FRII7.•^Mf .~- ifampwwlEmpwlme , wv•;7.-- State to.. ... . .-- ---- ... pediency ot filling up any office; and also Copies of Letters, or the substance of similar Commetvisall spe c from any Commissary,' or Commissary's Clerk, of the said Courts. Mr. BRAGG BATHURST said there ittirt! -- l ie such specs as the Nokle Lord required raltd Ili hoped that was a sufficient answer to his mcdietn.-- On all the grounds that he had stated, beheld that the motion could not be agreed to. After some conversation between Sir J. Newport, Mr. W. Dundis, and Mr. J. P. Grant, the Molten was negatived without a division. FORoKitIES ON THE HANK. Sir J. MACINTOSH said, he rose, agremffile to notice, to move that a Committee be appointed to en `quire quire into the means of mere effectually pretentiog ' forgesies on the Bank of Eogland—end to report their opinion thereon to the House. He could assure Gentlemen, that, until he had that moment learned the determination of PM@ peritons (whose sentiments on this subject had, he conceived, too mach weight j wlth the House) to oppose this motion, he could ricarcely persuade himself that any serious objection would be offered to it. Ile could scarcely believe, after the progress made in that enquiry in ohich they 'had embarked, that any opposition would be given to present the Legislature from coming to that smolt, to which all the previous Bums they had taken manifestly tended. In the last discussion, connected with this 'ito'bject, a very important principle was established — end an argument, which bad long been triumphantly seed by the Bank of England, was directly over veled. The Bank could no longer, after that de: &don, declare that their accounts and tbelr affairs were those of a private Company, into which Parlia ment had ne right to esquire. That pretence, flimsy as it was, bad been tenaciously adhered to by the Bank, until it was overturned by the last dis cussion. It seemed to him doubtful whether the 'Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Es 'chequer) had made op his mind to grant the 1 judicial details connected with one of the greatest evils that ever afflicted the country, until be found the sense of the House decidedly opposed to him. And after what he had seen, he had but little doubt, that, if the independent individuals, who had delivered their sentiments on the former occa sion, would now come forward, it the same manner, the Ministers of the Crown would be warned not to provoke a division, which would terminate in their defeat, as he was perfect certain the last would have done, if they had called for it. It had been admitted in the course of more then one dissuasion, that the magnitude of the evil was such as to call for imme diate enquiry. The investigation had been pushed to a certain point—documents had been called for from the Bank—anti the general sense of the House had been loudly expressed on the propriety of finding out some means for the mitigation of the evil. Few !ob jects had excited such a general interest in the Minds of the Public a large—inithe minds of the Most quirk part of society—in the minds of those who took the least part in the discussion of political subjects. It appeared, itidevd, to be a most momentous question, when they came to esamine the documents illustrative of it. In the course of twelve years, preceding the . stoppage of cash payments, but one execution for the forgery of Bank-notes occurred. Forgery was then one of the rarest offences io the record of crimes. What followed ? In the course of the last seven years, one hundred and one persons had suf fered for that offence.—pear, hear, hear !)—Au. other comparison, equally striking and horrible, might be instituted. One instance only of execu tion for forgery of Bank notes was to be found in the twelve years preceding the restriction on cash payments—and, in the last seven years, no less than forty four had taken place for that offence in Lon don and Middlesex alone. Forgery stood at the head of the list of capital offences. The number of persons esecoted for that crime greatly exceeded "those who suffered for murder—it was far beyond the proportion of persons executed for the nest g reat offence, burglary—and it absolutely doublet! the ' number of these who forfeited their lives for taking property by force and violence. This was thiresult on which he rested, and which he implored the House to consider. He implored them to think, whether they ought not, by a Committee of their own, &rite means, if not to remove (that be feared could only be done by the resumption of caeca yments), t a least to mitigate the evil. li e irapi to con sider how they could answer to their consciences and their constituents, if they neglected this duty—lf, deceived by any specious pretence, they transferred that ditty to others, which the House of Commons owed it to the People of England to perform them- SPitol.—(llear!)—in every point of view the sub ject was appalling. New horrors seemed to sur round it on every side. Let 0.4. House look to the result, drawn from documents laid before them. The Returns of the number of prosecutions for Bank Forgeries in the years 1816, 1817, and three months of 1818, had been made up—and the increase would bid defiance to belief, if it were not founded on the most authentic evidence. The most extraordinary circumstance was, that, in the last three months, the evil bad increased to so dreadful an extent, that if it went on in any thing iike the same ratio, the prose cutions in 1818 would be,three times greater than those which occurred in 1817—the last being the worst year ever before knnen. He perceived •,that some Returns of considerable importance had yester day been presented, and amongst theta a Reims* '4f ' the espeocea incurred deo Bank of England is Its" inweecations. W bar alluded to them. be ) 14 --- r v. did not mesa to say ti. invidious or IteCONAIIIII, of the Bank of Es& * merely called ass**. /*Mina of Gertiti *t l y which ibis iiiatete _ sod its conseqee Bolt Itosso. Omrisig the first few yetwei ~,4 0 of cash tar teems, the tlpettcy, .14 ' ' ~ 'll';'4lis mill •••• ilia Ili bad increaaeirwomko i,', v Jo the last year tim prosecutions ftrild - 6 , 4 140001., and, In the 4 11 _ontas a dt• t tin Ai Ike Rouse SO4 i Aka of Iheimpid ~ eats gioltradsieetWe which the evil bad taken), the expense amounted to near 20,0001. Th e genera l average o r the ezpeoce, struck him with es t o uishment. The general 'verity, for prosecuting ••• rues- Horns - 711 " - • . mr=4l! tit), _ k ...) ./ „e • - .; .. r . each individual, wet 2631.—[hear'.] , --This appear. ed to him to he g monstrous and an alarming circum stance. Taking the average of single years, it was greater ; but the general average was 2651. for the conviction of each person. lie did not mention t hi s as a charge against the Bank, but as a corrohorat. ;,. ing proof that the House ought to do its duty t and investigate, to t he last, this p ernici ' us s } s• tem, instead of suffering the invertioinn tá devolve upon others. In the last returns, the f or . ' genies exhibited Ira" circumstance ettremely sin. .gular. In the course of the last three years. the 'forgeries, tvii:ch were formerly confined to mini( 'orates, had climbed to those of larger amount. The skill and experience of those who had emh•arito I ill the forgery of small notes,' had excited thing MI ,Imitate those of much larger amount. In c 'use. queries of this circumstance, he was afraid. even it tests payments were resumed, that a conshilhavisf , :Ingle ofm us i t ir e it l e aps i e w l t s e e s f . ore an end was el iteehad d t th e t a ct baada i nt ' it ` orgu shown, that severity of punishment, even the for.t feitore of life, bad no effect in repressing this evil-4 The temptation was so great, that the fear of Milt did not .prevent persons from embarking in thi t r traffic. He had often stated this from his own 40 , s A sersa ti eu _and ne woein, now fortify '1).1 sistemeni by quelisg the words of the Lord Chief Bareni when' nronouricing sentence of death. at the late Laticaller Assizes, on several peones *he built's'a bound, guilty of forging shrill nowt. That Looms ed Judge; in addressing the convicts, said, •' It is evident that previous punishments have bad nci effect in checking this crime, for all your offences have been committed since the list As.izea; and, • ns less some other means be devised to put an end to it we must proceed to the utmos t e il v erit y of the law' } The Learned Judge, as a Minister of the law, co u ld not avoid, however painful it mieht be to his feel• ings, the performance of the duty which his situatiouf ae imposed on him. But, by the parenthesis which he used, when he said, " unless some other mode be devised," he seemed to implore the L eg i s l a ture td .. relieve him and his brethren from the horrible task which now so often devolved upon thsm. The fre. quency of capital punishments for this crime, to use the words of the Petition from Liverpool on this sub• ject—" made our laws hateful to foreigners, and tended to destroy the sound moral feelings of the People. It made the administration of justice odious instead of awful—and rendered those who were con. demned to death objects of fellow- feeling, and al• most of affection." It nes no wonder the y should receive such a Petition from the town of Liverpool, the county of Lancaster being one of those districts in which forgeries most generally prevailed. To that Petition, so remarkable fur the soundness of the principles laid 'down in it, and for the perspicuity with which they were stated, he begged to call di particular attention of the House.—[the Leauusi Gentleman here read the Petition presented from the town of Lancaster, a few evenings since, calling 01 the House to enquire into the mean* of i.reventing the Forgery of Bank of England N•ates--and Profess ing their determination, if 'nen p r ayer wa s it ,“ c ,r e ... plied With, to institute country henks. the eote is seed from which were rarely forged.l.-Lt"..rp. lA. continued •the • Learned Gentleman, *as the second commer• ial town in the empire—anti, at a moonlit of merchants, comprising gentle.i.ers of all opruions--a meeting at which - many of the supporters of 'he Right Hon. Gentleman took an active part it *as agreed, if some rem ed y were n or devi.ed, that Le. course should be had to Country Baas A Pouliot coming from such a place ought to have great weight with the House. The merchants of than town, since the unfortunate failures of (703, had favoured the paper of the Bank of iforglsird to such a degree, that country banks were almost entirely banished. But such was their sense of this greet evil, that they had overcome their prejudice, end declared, if it were not mitigated, that they would have recourse to country banks. When such a body called on the House of Commons, as the Great Council of the Na. Lion, to discuss this point—when they said, that to remove the evil, they would give up Bank of England notes—the House of Commons could not, with its. 'trinity to its character, refuse to attend to their ob. serrations. lie felt himself more seriously impressed with the importance of this question, in conseq•eace of having read the summary, prepared at the floats Office, of the state of tattle for the last seven refl. It was a most melancholy Statement. It showed co increase of crime which to real well• wisher of the c o untry could see withrilit the de'pest regret end alarm. No account of defeat is War—no bighting 'of the failure of anaece--could affect a versos who knew the tree foundation of national greatnessoo much as this shocking detail. It appeared from it, that the number of capital executions (and every thing else corresponded), from 1805 to 1811, amqunted to 380—and from 1 8 1 1 to 1818, to 5 80 t being one.eighth of the number of persons me. demned to capital punishment. So that the re turns afforded a correct standard of the rate of i eb n : c di r s e ti a .i s t e t lße o us f tp ii crime tribt,yann i od n mw I England. inchi coe 1 could sc arcely followed, i i e tdbiadttthi:et ide:lu to argue, that the quantity of crime in a country 015 a fair criterion of its morals. Countries, where Ito People were possessed of great energies—where spe culations were numerous—where temptations in co s' co seqeence abounded—were, of' course, charscierifed by a greater degree of crime than those nations whifh Morals of the litter were superior to those of the farmer ; the contrary was, perhaps, the fact. How' 'liver that Might be, the increase of crime, in the owe ,ielig lotion, most be considered a proper standard for ing of the wane of morality. He should say, 0 a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had done on I former occasion, that the unfortunate c hange in thE morality of the People of England, seemed to OW *her from political causes th an from that resolut Pes in . their character to which the y had been someti inferred. Vaciiniew - of wsges,ilectuation in the Arid tel estOlmodAitVgircumstances connected with tion , _ onlotenne or , traktieleala•rtihle paper money, yid° mode the 00ellt "sod simple, observing aori sages, wrtitimit s hetsti able to &scribe any cantsfor_ es* imegine•lheir fortunes w e r e the sport of 10 6° Jetiligna ienin, end caused them to assume aOP racier averse, Jo. industry—a gambling character' which they were taught - by the vicissitudes of 1 1 war—by nu unexpected peace—and by that w i n e r r a t l ib v it scoerges !bat could bee: a ntifion, nit incon THF. SI'ATESMAN 1 .. of such an-enqeiry wait obriOus, and lestild that liouwe-Copy of any Letter., of the substance of vpy Ministers'would not (*poi* ill, Hetarostd add; that Communication that might hare been ' snide -by 'the &sr-Petition was neeedjikerfrepPatil ; iwrltaps,hin. Conwoisiioners for enquiring into the duties sad em- deed, the most so he bed ewer had the bonnet to pre. ployments of the Offices of Clerks of Coerts in vent. - It wee from a greas-potitiesi-oreiiereurise heal ilsoilendvet .hy aeywniof them, to the Secretary -of - I- 1.... 'ha remain, when the State for the Home Department, relative to the Inez- . ___ _ -...1 cal•r• Ironton Of L ~-~, _:~ •, 1_ re f .( ittai 401 Ole w al for bee oni but !ea hol tbi ,flee j es the ti li 1 g ( 1 1 $ 1 d 1 I I