The Statesman. — London, England, 1814-11-29 00:00:00

--yam ~- .'~ r Id' itvoi mega' in coat/titling the Militia in their embodied s t a te, since there was nothing imperattve on his ci tic time mentioned in the Act, when the King must disembody them ; and therefore , the King might wu mot specified then the Crown should dkombody the Mititia: but the .sole dinsetiou ve s ted -in the If the spirit of the 144 , ara not terbt 6611144 4 • t i; Q science e( law mnot•be degraded ; a 'Lilt. a !lard: N o iest . y to disband them. Expediency was another pow, though here he was inclined to think that if the Act bore a particular construction, it seemed to have been framed with the prospect of enabling the Crown to continue the Militia: of this he felt as surd, at any rate, that, however it might be com mented open as an act of prerogative, it 'offered no violation of the Constitution.—[gries of Hear!] — What the Honourable Gentleman on the other side meant by his opinion being in contradiction to the spirit of the Act, he pretended not to know, since th o se Gentlemen were in the habit of letting in 800 lights on subjects of every kind. Unless it enuld be made out, that not disembodying the mi litia *as illegal, it never could be inf.'rred that it wa s unconstitutlonal. lie could most conscienti vasty say, if he knew any thing of his own mind, that none had less confidence in his own opinion, more willing to confess he had been i n no r was an'y au error, when eon' inced of the truth; yet, having l ied the Azt most circumspectly, he was convinced that the proceeding was not contrary to the spirit of t h e Act, and most assuredly it was no violation of t h e Constitution. On these grounds he should resist the motion. • Lord MILTON wished the Learned Gentleman, i ns t ea d of confining himself to the mere letter of the Act, had also taken into his consideration its ob stow spirit and meaning. It was true, that there was Bo cleric in the. Act specifitl!ally naming the time * t wo the militia !hould be disembodied: but when one read the Act, and saw the causes clearly spaci nhich alone made it lawful to call forth the mi litia, how was it possible to avoid coming to the keep them embodied as long as he thought proper.— But were they nut to look at the purposes for which the Crown was authorised to etehady them? lie would, for instance, advert to the Property Act ; there a time was specified, which had regard to the particular purpose for which it was enacted ; and, therefore, looking at this clause in the Militia Act, they were not to confine themselves to the words ' 6 till they shall be sent back to their counties," but consider the causes for which the Crown was em powered to embody them. If the Crown, haring once ettilmdi..l them, might keep them embodied for ever, then it must be acknowledged that we had a standing army. Suppose, when this Act was passed, that any man gifted with a prophetic spirit should have said, that such a construction would have been put upon it, he would hare been laughed to scorn, as one who alarmed himself with ridiculous appre hensions. Nothing could be clearer, than that when the purposes of calling out the militia ceased, the power of embodying them must cease. That con. struction would accomplish all the intentions of the Legislature respecting this Act. Was, or was not, then, the militia a standing army ? Did not the con struction which the Learned Gentleman had put upon the Act convert the militia into a standing army ? The motion would be attended with this consolation; they would know what Ministers thought 'of that national force; but he hoped he should not see the House confirming that construction ; he hoped it would not receite any countenance in that House.— He looked upon this as a great constitutional ques tion, and was sorry to find it reserved for these times, that the Crown should be advised to act as Crows' was this,—whether it was fit to continue the Militia, on foot, with reference to the causes which made it legal to embody it. fle was astonshed a he Was *shamed to hear these doctrines frorn The Hon. and Learned Genfletivn on the other side. •Nothing to his Wild could be store dear or less doffhtfol than that, by the spirit of tire taw and the intent of tit Legislature, the Crown was, bound, wbenerer lion waft opt down and war had ceased, to ceisenittedy . the Militia. If this *as lile'triie construCtion, the Crown was not justifiedinithe preteille ircrim Sta flees of tliieduotry in keeping that Piece embodied. The Holt and Learned Gentleman had pat the case of a hostile armament threatening our shores, and of the militia being consequently called out, and had asked whe thet, if this armament were defeated or destroyed, it Would be necessary Immediately to disembody the tnilftia I To this hi replied, certainly net : no one would draw such an inference, so long as a proba bility existed that another armament might be equip. ped, -sod that the attempt might be renewed.— [Hear, hear !)—The lienourable and Learned gentleman really appeared to form a very tow esti. mate of the understandings of his Majesty's Ministers, when he supposed that their measures would be in fluenced by such imaginations as these. They could hardly be such drivellers as to advise the Crown to disembody the militia so long as the war continued, the object of the Act being to guard against the ex istence or revival of a penicillin. danger. Unless, therefore, it could be shown that we Were in danger of invasion from America, or that Commodore M'Donough was about to sail with his squadron for the British seas,—a danger which no child could pos wicke, a Uthot, or alltansfield, and all the - tumii. entries wad oracles of oer jurisprudence had been de= Exited. Lord Coke, ioo, must hive been its 'a . glefti . error *twin be obtervedi that these who hot nett their attention to the mere Tenet the would Seldom cornpreheud: its meanina of its Object.-r- 7 - In this cam, indeed, Vile •Obyecta of the Act w7.1:1 distinctly specified • and so speciftedi were hiy every Constrectled bf law exclutite..--464 meld the Crown tiles% the joaw,oi whe4 "ay chose *Oh whick judgment 'tope Opel. rate had ceased ?It wail ivoithy of miss*, tWat in the ioniser Militia Aitv, the JFdtd id hoi;ellikia.- slan t &c. was the word ethployed bit in ftitk A enl it had been deemed advisable to insert 'lst, Ids iiltfrct to recent. Did not this of ittelf She* the #reCit tied and care with sthkh these AcM We* Ifsually framed ? The Learned Gentlemita Okitlied to rata in where the wisest of his peedeestbri hid Naiad td tread? He fainented that Minister* sitottlifhirk Oft 4 serted a profound illienebiki thlit occasion; Once that deprived the country bf the chance orkobwitg *lied they might etpect to set lotinination of this syittin: The real Ties/100 vrat, whether the Cretin had ad indefinite power to keep on foot the militia as long as it thoilight fit ) cdniritty Va-the **press 'Work of ad Act of Parliament. On brit' 00/116h tiegiaato. 6 , * tide the House, though he shciuttlitind th* occasion. He had to complain, lisp, thist ftWeitlit the papers for which he had tooted en Ark had not yet been presentedtolß/Thop.,_ • On the hardship of to many blitilk kept embodied, perhapl iti Ifit; land, six months after thh tontlualon of pea • conclusion, that when those causes ceased to exist, the militia ought no loeger to remain embodied the year 1759, when an Act was made for calling out the militia, the country was in a state much ex posed to the attack of European neighbours, with whom we were at war. Not only was an invasion of the country then contemplated, but there was some danger of insurrection. The lion. and Learn ed Gentleman (the Solicitor-General) had entirely flecliued giving any opinion on the spirit and inten ton of the Act. He should really wish to know what opinion h" would venture to put upon paper, supposing the question had been put in these terms : " When the militia was once embodied. was it law ful for the Crown to keep them embodied as long as it thought proper ?" The argument of the Learned Gentleman would go the complete length of saying, that wilco once the Crown had been able to get the militia (tut, it was legal to keep them embodied to all eternity. The Learned Gentleman said, that he was at a less to determine the spirit and intention of the Art, and professed °illy to look at the letter of it. lie, forsooth, looked at the subject merely as a plain simple lawyer, that had nothing to do with the intention of an Act of Parliament, but wily with the letter of it. • This might be veiy well le- a special pleader iu the Courts holow ; but it might be expected of it Member of Parliament, speaking itt his place in the House of Coanamis, that he should have ;19 opinion about the intention and spirit of an Act, which,. "as of such great im poi lance, in a constitutional point of view, as the Act relpecting the militia. foe/Ming the tit . Tentiotilif the House to the nteani:l; of the militia laws, he would obServe the description of personi who were looked to for officering the militia. In time of war, Parliament had a right to expect that men of a certain fortune and situation in the coi.ntry would come forward to officer the militia. This was the very spit it of the militia institution, and office's of that description Were always found. If, however it was once laid down, that those regiments might be kept up.at the *time of the Crow e, in time of peace, it could not be expected that the same descrip tion of men could be found as officers. Ile did not • • - I disparaging of the Ministers had advised it. There was nothing in thelsibly figure to itself,—the causes specified by the Le-' when they had every reason to tripe& ....the 4 1% ), state of the country that the Peace OffiCers were not gislature, as calling for 'atid justifying the main.; disembodied. • ,- ..• - . adequate to; nothing that justified the keeping the tenance of this force, did not exist. Nobody would; Lord PALMERSTON Stilted; illat - the elittl4 militia embodied. lie g ave venture his most cordial concur- to assert, That there was any rebellion or presenting papers complained of by the Hen. t it: rence to the motion, an d should have been deeply i probability of insurrection in the country at the pre.. tiemaff proceeded from no disrespect to - the House.—i concerned, if no one Member had not thought it sent moment. if it were true, then, that there was Some of the returns movedidr bid only reached MA necessary to submit it to the House. no subject on which the House ought to show a more that day. . . , . ~..... Mr. Serjeant BEsT said, that this question should , wakeful vigilance and jealousy than in - entrustiag the ! The House then divided; Own there 4-Itaiiire be considered upon broad grounds and principles, i Crown with a large military force, the present ques. : against the motion, 97 ; for it, 32—Majtkty, 13: v and not upon any particular clause. The House ; tion became one of the highest importance. Aye, 1 ARMY ESTIMATES. would allow him to correct what the Learned and said the lion. and Learned Gentleman, but it is not j The house then went into a COmmittetVof Sop. Hon. Gent. had stated to be the arguments of his 1 for yoa surely, who have such objections to a stand- ply, in which a grant was moved for of 133,0001. for Learned Friend,who had not said, that the militia being i ing army, to object to a for ce of this description. defraying the expenses of certain Militia Regiments called out, Ministers might keep it embodied for ever. He would solve this riddle, and tell the lion. and not diomhodied, for the period of 62 nova. • In no part of his argument had he advanced any $ OFI Learned Gentleman, that he wished to see that force T he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHER rose thing like what he had been supposed to state; on . kept up which the Crown was empowered by law to to explain the grounds on which this tote Was pro. the contrary, tro had said, that though there might be keep up, and no other [hear, hear!]. His opinion posed. It had been considered by some Gentlemen I nothing in present circumstances to render it neces- Wag, that the militia - was now unlawfully rriained. a singular circumstance, that while part of the mi. sary to keep the militia embodied, yet it teas left to ilt had been said, that as no time hod been specified litia were kept embodied, the regular army had been the discretion of Government when to disembody it. , when the necessity of disembodying should begin to reduced. Now, on this head, it was true that 24 If there were a time pointed out for disembodying, ! operate, there was no limit so long as Ila liniment second battalions of the regular infantry had beery then Ministers were bound to do so ; but if no time I consented to pay for the maintaining it. This con- reduced ; and t h e reaso n wa s, th ey w er e s o ineffl. was greifiPd, then they were left to exercise their I sent, however, might not be obtained till six, nine, dent in point of numbers, that the whole 24 butts. discretion. The House should look at the Act gene. lor twelve months after the pet iod when by law this lions did not muster more than 8500 men. Of these, rally, and see vs hat construction under circumstances i force should have been disarmed. The violation MO had been embodied with the first battalions, must be put upon it. It must occur to every one, iof the law might have taken place long before the and the remainder had been discharged, either for in• that ihc.re was n most material difference between i remedy could he applied. lie considered that there tirmity, or because their periods of service had ex. c;llling out the militia, and disembodying them. He I was but one course for the Cm.% n to adopt in such pired. By this measure a considerable reduction of admitted, that though Government might think it i emergencies, and th at was to obtain a new Act of the expense lind been obtained, attended with little or expedient to call them out, they would not be justified, Legislature. r no reduction of military s:rength. It was obvious, except in olie of the cases mentioned in the Act. Seijeant BEST explained. however, that the war with America, and the keeping His Learned Friend (Sir A. P.) would conaider the 44h.VC. Girticr w r thought the lion. Memliers on up of a considerable body of troops on the ems& situatitilt In which he would place the country by the other side of the House at a loss to escape from - dent, required the maintenance of a large military his construction of that Act, which he (Mr. B.), with r the consequences of their of own arguments. When force; and Government, on the most mature deli• humble submission, could not conceive to be the •an enemy's armament was destroyed, the danger of beratien, thought that that force would best be ren. true one. He left it to Ministers : to exercise their 1 invasion could no longer be said to be very imminent; dared disposable by keeping embodied a part of the judgment as to the circumstances of the country, and if, notwithstanding this removal of the danger, militia. and whether the militia ought to be disembodied ; and the militia continued to be embodied, because that i Mr. WHITBREAD contended, that the keeping Gentlemen would find that in all cases in which it was ! danger might revive, with what consistency could up of a part of the militia was any thing but a deli. to he called out, the Legislature had taken care so to I they maintain that-it was only in the four specified berate measure on the part of Government. The word the Act, as to leave the disembodying to die-leases that this force could belawfully keptembodier'.? troth was, as facts showed, that it was a sudden cretion. One section said that it was to be disem. i Was not this a sufficient refutatiott of the construe. thought on their part; for the Bedfordshire and the bodied when his Majesty should think fit. (Sir S. ! tion of the lion. Member ? Ile would wish to call Oxfordshire militias were actually arrested when on Hominy, and others, asked what section? The their attention to the Acts for regulating the Local their march to be disembodied. The whole spirit of Learned Setjeant turned to the Act, hutcould not find ! Militia, in which the time for disembodying them the militia system had been broken down (not, in. the clause to a !rich lie lissl alluded.) lie stated from me. : was expressly limited. Here was, then, a marked deed, the spirit of the men o r the o ffi c e r s) ever since _ . . _. -- • • - - the Volunteering Act of 1799, Toe Act of 1.77 e mean to say any thing in the least disparaging e. description of officers that might succeed them ; but ! wry—Tear, hew. ri —hut was pretty certain the difference in the framing of the different Acts re- ee elute er n e• ...le Ite conceived that the whole spirit of the mi litia sys- Act either slid, " when the King should think fit," lathe to these distinct s p ecies of force. It was surely declared, that a moiety at least of the property of tem coneiater! in their being officered in the manner ;or " when he might judge it expedient." If these ! nothing new to say, that the militia might be so em- the milit:a officers should lie in the coulty to which they had hitherto been. Ica different description of I were the terms, and he was quite certain they were ! ployed as to enable the Crown to dispose of the re- their regiment belonged ; and now he would , appeal officers was to be app . heed, he thought it would be ;to he found in the Act—Pleat - I-4$ bat words in i gular army for general purposes. Ili 17'7.9, a ales- •to any Gentleman; whether this qualification was better to change the militia into a stetelieg army at our lang uage could be more explicit ? Nobody pre. sage was sent from the Throne infof miog the lit tele ' not disregared ? once. This change, however, would be a total de- tended that Ministers had not acted under responsi- that the French meditated ittrision, and the Nlititia I Mr. BATHURST observed that by the reernit. parsnip from all b tliose constitutional m3xims t weet tiny. His Leareed Friend (liner Solicitor-General) wasaccordingle called eut• The French fleet was, how- ing from the militia alone, this ' country - had been en. u t hich the militia was founded. He considered that had said, that though it was ot per se illegal to ever, defeate , l by Admiral 111 eke, anil ulthriti . v I tl,e aided to make those exertions of which w e a ll now it was n o w felt as a cruel hardstlip by many persons, keep the militia embodied, yet sters would be threat or probability of itiva4on was never relicts ed, knew the result. That policy, therefore could no t s that they were still kcpt up, at a lime that they had responsible if they neted improperly. If it had been the Militia ea% not dkembotlied, but on the contrary, surely be matter of regret. True it was that the a fair right to expvet to he disembodied. He had re- intended to compel Mi n ister; t o disembody the mi- maintained and augmented, until the conclusion of a retaining part of the militia embodied was ' not a sys ceived many complaints from persons i,t the militia litia, the Legislature would have made such pro. general peace. The Militia was thus employed for sadtemtic measure on the part of Government ee regiments now serving in Ireland. Ile believed, visions. Might n ot Mi n isters show circumstances in the double purpose of internal deTence, and as in- I w ictated by the demands for the employmen t of lostever, that it would be a great setisfaction to keeping it embodied ? It had been said, it would i stumental to the attainment of foreign objects.— the regular forces abroad. those regiments that were now kept up, to bear it be better to send home the militia, and keep up a [Hear !)—Yet that was a period when constitutional The grant was then put, and carried. stated by Ministers, that. it was their intention soon larger army ; but had this been done, would not principles wereamply discussed and fully understood. Lord PALMERSTON moved a grant of 55,0001. to disembody them. I complaint have been made that Government em- Next followed the instance n hich had been already for the maintenance of volunteer corps in Great Bri. Si r A. to arc could not reconcile it to his played unconstitutional measures ? It was essential touched upon cf the American war. In 1793, they tail! and Ireland, for a space of 182 days ) commence duty either to tee House, the public, or himself, to • to liberty that a militia should be maintained ; and were called out, in consequence of apprehended in- • big with the 15th of December. give a silent vote after the doctrines he had heard , would any one contend, that by keeping it on foot, surrection they were kept up afterwards from the Mr. J. P. GRANT really thought there was an . laid down this night. Ile was glad that the question ,i t could be r endered an y thi n g like a standing army ? probability of invasion ; and yet not a murmur of understanding on a former night, that this vote had heel, brought before the Hoteoe as it appeared to ! The militia at this moment, with reference to all su. disapprobation was heard. New, iudeed, it was said should be withdrawn altogether • and he w as n ow him most unconstitutional, that six months after the! per ior Officers, must have all those qualifications that all dangerharl disappeared. Thiehe was somewhat surprised to hear it brought forward without the Defittitive Treaty of Peace, this peculiar description that e ver we re r e q uired ; but were those O ffi cers so surprised to hear from those who had prognosticated smallest preface. of national force should still be kept up. This ales- dependent on the Crown, as the Officers of the re- nothing but calamity, tumult, and distractions from Lord PALMERSTON acknowledged that the sure, which was now tsexnmpled, might in another gular army ? He did not reflect upon the latter, the issue of the neeeciations at Vieons• Differing as vote was withdrawn at the suggestion of his Right war be jastified from the precedent. Tkat which but he had a right to contend, that t e hey were not he did from these views, he still thought there was I Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer); bin- awes now doctrine, might in time come to be Ruth°. pla.eel in so disinterested a situatiou as the Officers' enough in the state r of Europe, and whilst such a de- ;it was only for reconsideration, and not with an in rity. fie, therefore, re in glad that the subject had of militia. Ministers had done nothing illegal, or oarmnd existed on the Continent for our regular army, tention to drop it. It had been recensidered, and fairly come before Parliament, in order that the ale. in violatiOn of the Constitution ; and he felt it his xplain satisfactorily the reasons and policy for i the esmitate - for England reduced from 50,0001. to jections to this measure, supported by such high au- duty to state, that the opinion which his Learned • still maintaining embodied .a portion of our domestic 30,0001., and that for Ireland to t 5,0001. The r e., rhority, had been a dopted without any objectioirs or Friend (the Solicitor-General) had given was per. : force. ductiou from last year was still 'store considerable, protest against it. Was there mortal tongue that fectly consistent with the Law and Constitution. I Mr. P. MOORE said a few words with respect to when 1%0,0001. had been voted forvolunteer could convince him, that became the Act empowered Mr. PONeONLIV was net er more surprised than . the necessity of keeping good faith with individuals service in England aline. • This he conceived to be the Kin., to call out the militia to suppress rebellion with the doctrines he had heard. A Learned Gen. who enlisted only for a limited period. a species of force the most constitutional in its nature, King or ins ur rection, h e m i g ht whet' he had got them out, tleneet high in office (the Solicitor-General) had Caitmel OSBORNE said, principals and substi- 't he cheapest, and the least -liable to o bj e cti o n, It keep them e mbodied in peace and war, —in all times stated, that he did not ktiow at the spirit of the tales nere engaged with on the same terms. put arms ieto the hands of those least likely to abuse and seasons,— t inder any circumstances, [t law meant ; but it was the duty of that [louse to Sir S. RONIILLY was sorry that he could not them, and who on any sudden emergency were best ever ? He had listened with attention in order to know the spirit of the law ; and Courts of Justice congratulate the Muse on the course which thig die. qualified from local knowledge and influence to put ascertain w hen the power which this act had' vested constantly declared, that they decided nccording to cussion hail takmi. It now appeared that the mill- down disorder, and to preserve the peace. In this in the C ro wn would cease : and, according to the that spirit. Nothing was more a maxim than this,-- tia were not to be disembedied, whilst the American view these corps were much more effective than any that he who puts a construction npon the mere letter war or the Congress at Vienna should continue. It regular troops. construction which hag been put on it, if we were to Mr.J.P.GRANT said hehad expressed no jealousy atake peace with America to-morrow, still it was of the law, without considering its spirit and inten- had now become a . question, not of a few months ompetent for the Crown to keep the militia em- tion, does not properly decide. This was a prieciple more or less, but a question of years, and of an in. of the volunteer cotps, but great jealousy of the bodied. While the militia so remained, they were known and admit t e d by every Judge in Westminster- definite period, and that the responsibility of Mi. management of the public money, which the present subject to the provisions of the Mutiny Act. It was ha le (g ut the Solicitor-General advauceel other doe. ! sisters was all to which it coold be referred. He Ministers squandered on all hands with greater and one thing to say that the Crown ought to be advised trines which alarmed him more : he had said, that was surprised that the &dicker... General should have more latish •p.rofusion than any Administration with to disembedy the militia ; and another to delare, that when the Crown once gets an armed force in its said, that the phrase of " the spirit of the Act" was which thiecountry was ever cursede-iel laugh.]—. power, it might ' keep it embodied as long as it thought something too vague for his understanding. Could He would repeat it, their profusion was a curse In they were not subject to that laW. The true question Mac, w heftier the King, upon the fair construction of proper. He had heard of Prerogative doctrines, but there be any doubt ehat . the militia must ! of . course, the priaent state of our finances!, 'which was by far the t ‘t Ause , oug ht t o b eo dyied t o keep them embodied. had never heard of such as these, since James IL obey whatever were the orders they might reeelve the most seriourdiffealty with which ilia country had l' , I ili. L ea r n ed F r iend had said ) that there awes no spa - abdicated the Throne. It was said ) that thetiait from their facet% or the ciLikath from the•Ccoisti...- weenie: ~_ ~~ -',.. ~._ :~~ r i f*