The National Register. — London, England, 1820-11-05 00:00:00

.. ~. ..... ... Smpertai Varitainent. HOUSE. OF LORDS. MONDAY. OCT. TO. Their Lordships assembled this mormug at the usual hour, 10 o'clock, prayers having been read, and the House counted at a quarter plea ten, Counsel were culled in. Lord BA LC A ItRAS, preens's.% to tlietouasel resuming his address, felt it his duty to call their Liirdshipa' atieetion 111 Ina neat ied 'minatory and dangerous paragraph V. hich 'Ap peared in a Imo simper report of Dr. Lo411;80on • sore. and related to the cut respundence alluded to in Ludy Char lotte Lindsay's esamisuninn ' and to the masons assigned for her Ladyship's quitting her Royal Highness's service. Tne Noble Lord broke f • the galiery, and in a tone almost wholly Mandible Lehr. tae bar. We uhdcrstood him, Mow ever, to state, that he had the whole iif the original cm respondeme now in his hand, and, on his honour, he declared there was not 14 single seistenre ill the whole correspondence relating to this unhappy case. The Noble Earl also entered into a vindication of the conduct sod character of Colonel Lindsay, also, he said, was a gentlemau of the strictest ba nner and integrity. Lord LAUDERDALE was convinced no individual In the House thought less highly of Colonel or Lady Lindsay iw coesequence of what had been stated by the Learned Counsel. Dr. LUsIIINGTON assured their Lordship, in what he said lellalave to the correspondence in qftestion, in his address to their Lordships, lie intended no /elections on Colonel Lindsey, but hail acted in the discharge of his duly. He had great pleasure in stating to their Lordchips, that lie had since seen Lady Lindsay. and hilly satisfied her Ladyship'e mind on the subji el. The Lord CHANCELLOR said, he had heard no ob servation* from the Learned Council, in his address on this subject, which his duty to their Lordships and his client did not call en hint to make. He trusted the circumstance to which their Lordship's atteutiuu had mow beets called by the Noble Eurl, would render the public cautious how they gave credit to the remarks of the paper in question, as to what passed before their Lordships. Lord BALCAILRAa expressed himself satisfied with this explanation, and the ouiject dropped. The StiLiciToot GENERAL, at a quarter before 11, re. named his address to their Lordships, and took • review at great length of the evidence given in support of the Bill —during his speech he was continuaily interrupted by Mr. Denman, who called upon him to read the different emits of the evidence, instead of asserting as proved a hat had not .been stated by the a itisesses,each as they were. The General havi n g concluded, Mr. liROOGIIAII row begged to be heard in support of the plotluction of me letters of Baron Oilipteda, as evidence for her Majesty. The effect of them he said, would be to charge Ompteda, distinctly and unequivocalli, with having been one of the most active sigents iu the prusecutiou—aud one of the least acrupuldstts as to the means to which he had recourse to further its objects; they could she* that he had etualoyed a person to seduce her Majesty's servanta—that he had mentioned the names of some pistons he wished particu larly to gain over,such as Hies °Minus, Olives, &c.—that he 144 made the person he thus employed it promise of a thou sand dollars, if he succeeded is the attempt. After the 'productiou °float letters, it would doubtless sot be said, that the Baron Ouopieda was • person of whom b 0 mach bad been heard, and mu little proved. The streoexar-Gansit•L.—" My Lords, this Is most Irregular." The LORD CHANCELLOR.--1' Mr. Attorney-general, have you any thing to say why these letters ought nut to be .seceived in evidence." The ATTOlthalf-GENZIt•L." Yes, my Lords, if Mr. Brugge= has done." Mr. Bactucant said he would like to hear what was the bajection of his Learned Friend. The Arcot n se-Gen coat said, that this was like many other extraordinary applications which had come front the *plumate side of the bar during these procettedings. He taught make me of the same exclamation with which Mr. Roustabout bad greeted an application made by hint (the Attorney-General, to their Lordships, and say, " mow, my Lords, t ask if you are sitting as a Court of Justice t" 11dr. Brougham could have uo other object in tendering these letters, than to have the opportunity of making such a apees b as might cause un the wands of their Luriiships, stud still more so on the minds of the public out of doers, an impres sion nut to be produced by the real facts uf thecae. Their Lordships had already decided, that the verbal declarutione of a party could not be received us eviden. e of Ilse acts of that party, and learn were nothing more than such dectis venues iu apothem shape. Beside., their Lordships hod yet to learn to a hum those letters were 11001 Med. Mr. BROUGHAM shall scud them, it you please; I am ,ate I have no objection.—(A laugh.) The ATToRN6V•66NERAL 'JAW he eras not to be caught by the dLietettly 10 Ins Learned Fileml. It aas i' mania to a tin= the letters were :Mao cried, nor what they contamed, under nu circumstances cuaid they be received as legal eel. deuce. Mr. BROVGUAK disclaimed all ;ideation of taking any amble sodveintiorte. His Learued Friend drat complained of teodering the letters, a.,d then, I hat be had not hear desiough of them. Ile load every desire to telieve his Learned Friend's curio •ity on this phial. The first letter *as dart' the 2dth of February, Isl 9, and the ksuud• tile 6th of March, 1819. The peis-a ai a hum they acre addressed Was time Director of toe Police at Ft solo, as agent of the home Department of tile Roman lievertiowni. In tender ing these letters, he (Mr. Brougham) Iwd uuly performed what he coeceired to be a • juke duty, tshieli he owed both to their Lordship rind to his dhoti haus dealt ; but at the same time, be was far front feeling pressed by any great aecessity to do bO. For though it would be vain for him to attempt to rival the ingebuii;, and thoquence displayed by bls Learned Friends °lithe other side of time bar, yet, in as 4',r as respected argument, in as far as respected current re ferestee—(tries of " 0' der, order l" from their Lordships) be nOO Out alarmed. The ATTUANKY-GIINERAL said, he most object to the Coarse %Inca bir Learned Friend was taking. He was re joining to the reply of hi, Learned Friend the Solicitor and himself, and nut arguing the question us to the production *rave letters. Mr. 11.ROUGUAM...—" My Lords, I am entitled, I conceive, • to skew the niaterialny of these letter to our defence." The ATTOII7.ICY-CiiillEit•L.—" I bobtuit that my Learned Frk•ad ts only !WHICH,' to argue the admissibility." Mr. Bni,uprisst.—" And haw can I better do that than by chewing their materiality. The Learned Gentleman proceeded tit watt but not without very frequent I THE NATIONAL REGISTEIt Interruptions front the Counsel for the Bill, to explain the grounds on which he Conught the letters necessary to the just determination of her Majesty's close. The ATTuRm RV GE:Ntsaat The LORD CHANCELLOR shortly gave Isis opinion that the letters could not be received in evidence. The Earl of CARNA It VON sail, whether the evidence tendered was admissible accurdnig to the rules of law or hot, was nut the question for their Lordships to consider the evidence well uf the same nature as stamped the whole character of the proceedings. 'Elicit Lordships had been told that there mode(' an agency, and that agency was new traced to au aces edited 31inister of the King of Ha nover, who was also King or this country. Evidence had been tendered to prove that this Minister had tampered with the servauts or her Majesty, who, perhaps, if not co tampered will, might have beets celled in her favour. It was for their Lordships to decide whether they were sit ting as Peers of England, or as the sere ants of the Govern nsent of Hanover. If their Lordships were determined to proceed with this Bill, they could nut do so with justice, unless they sifted the conspiracy to ther The Duke of HAMILTON was glad of an opportnnity of declaring his sentiments bit this subject. He would nut enter into any of the technical difficulties with which the question might be surrounded; lie only wished for matters of tact, and for the eliciting of truth. If there was any particular I t which had been sedulously kept out of sight iu this inquiry, it was the conduct of those who com posed the Alden commission. The Noble Earl opposite (Lives; I) had declared. ou his own part, and us. that oh Isis Majesty's Ministers, that they Mitt given ao authority in this business to ally foreign Minister. 'Phis was a Bill of Plllll4 and Penalties, and as such he would enter his protest against it, since it was extra-constitutional, and totally unnecessary. It, then, their Lordships wished to discover the truth, they must not he bound by technicali ties or forced analogies. To do justice in the ps event case, their Lordships must receive the letters. This was his firm conviction, and he would take the sense of the House upon it. T Ise Noble Duke concluded by moving, Tut the letters be received as evidence." Eat! GREY agreed with his Noble Friend as to every thing that he had said against a Bill of Pains and Prim'. ties, a measure only to be resorted to in case, of the goofiest necessity, and where the ordinary modes of pro ceeding diJ not apply. That no such case existed in the present instance, he (Earl (trey) had declared before these proceedings coninicaced. Their Lordships had sinfortuuately thought otherwise, and having agreed to proceed by a Bill of Pains and Penalties, between 40 and :DO days had been engaged in hearing the evidence on froth sides. At the co 00000 sencement it was agreed, that although their Lordships were dot fettered by the rules of law, yet that their proceedings should be regulated by those rules as lt as possible. On this principle they had hitherto proceeded ; and the question now was, whe ther, in the last stage in the proceeding, they should aban don it? He greed with the Learned Lord un the Woolsack, that according to the nales of law the letters could not be received Were they, them, of sufficient importance to induce their Lordships to deviate fruits those rules? His Noble Friend had said, the conspiracy should be inquired into. He agreed with him, but tins was not the tinse. On Ulnae armada he should.vole against the motion. The Ea►l of CARNAAVONc attended that their Lord ships were not sitting as Judges only, belt, as Legislators, and in that capacity they had nothing to do with rules of law. As Peers of Parliament they were bound to go into the fullest inquiry, fur they were not placed like a Jary, to give a verdict of Guilty or Not Guilty. He could not, us a Peer of the realm, give that horrible vote against the Queen which he feared some were disposed to give, while the slightest circumstance in her favour remained mead mined as evidence. He conjured their Lordships not to forget that they were Peers of Parliament, that the eyes of the country and the world were upon them, and that they must trot shrink from doing that justice which was expected at their hands. Earl GROSVENOR was of opinion, that the examina• lion into the conspiracy was nut allowed, they could nut now go into that partial view of it which the letters would afford. Loral I lOLLA ND thought the admission of these letters now wouid turd to which, though incomplete, might be almost interminable. His reason, and his sole reason, fur not receiving them, was, that lie MaS deter mined to vote against the Bill in every stage; but as lie Aid not think that any man could give au honest vote fur it, sinless be was "'repaired to tfillaille auto every circum stance that was I;eoagla belure their Lordships, in every stage of tar proctediag—(licar)—he wanted nu 'stymy into the (Instinct of ildam*tradia Aillabtl'lS, lie would vote rg.iitst the Bill; but Ilaw.e also %etc ptepated to rule for it should see whether thin eitteitce had urea featly procured or out. The Marquis of LANSDOWN was against receiving the letters; he thonglit it 'lt enable that tue cotubitii sty slaunld be I nvestigated, but lie di i not think grounds had been tumid fur deviating from the rules to which Unit Lordships had hitherto adhered. Ii had heels declared, that evidence of a conspiracy should out be inquesed into, and also (lie put it hypothetically) that they should exclude all evidence of a counter-conspiracy. The uallarting Ito tile rules of law had home inconvenience, but it was the inconvenience which attached to the whole of these pi te. (-endings ; And ha trusted, when th ear Lortl,hips C 411.0 to decide, that the illustrious personate %unid have the be nefit of it. The House then divided on the Duke of Hamilton's motion, when the numbers were— Contents Nvn-Coinents ll5 .............. _ Majority against the tuutioh-129 It being four u'cluck, their Lordships adjourued till Thursday neat. THURSDAY ROY. L. The LORD CU AIN Cl_,LLalt souk Isis scat oa the Wool sack u tew etiolates before ten o'clock. Prayers acre ryal by the Bishop of Bristol, after which the list VIII. called over. Lord GAGE moved that the standing order of the Howe. relative to Use method of voting, should be read. TUil heilig done, Lord HOLLAND said. the rep''r mode of proceeding was the loupe., to be culled over .it Co; taole, whin eat Peer rises mud unsurrs to his mime, and declare; h:s vol. , couteut or tion•culamnt. standout uo and uncovered; the Lord Cltat.eellor Ora declares how he coot tires the question has heel, decided, and if any Peer is Mutilated, the house may thee be divided. The Mike of the Day was then moved. The LORD CHANCELLOR—" My Lords, the question now about to be discussed by your Lordships, mow itlistende tag all that has beau said un the subject, is, whether this Bill shall or snail out be read a second time? I couceive, tics cording to the ordinary practice of the House, this is the only point fur your Lordship; consideration. Li the Grohs wary course of proceeding un Bills somewhat rasembling this -1 mean Bills tot ilivoieco—proof of the allegation committed in the Bill is first made, hod if the individual occupying the o (whinier is of upimuu that the fuels have been wowed, and other Lords are of a couleury opinion, then a debate ur rsq ,11,011 it. 1.44011 heiking into the precedents of your Loral soups' House, you may be asaered, beyond all doubt, that although the preamble of the Bill he probed before the second reading, it is cumpetent fur the House to :mend the preamble. and that has been done in many, very many eases. The House, dB deems it expedient, may even introduce a new preamble; but it is my optuion. that nu alteration of the prsiouble, or the ulleantioes, call be made, sinless lor the purpose of mitigating them. In addressing your Lor,l4:p am this subject, 1 Call assure you, with the utmost siucerity, that amain; whatever would induce inc to trouble you, did I toot feul that I could not at all avoid. without a direliction of my public duly. I would not have taken any part in this enquiry did not a sense uf duty impel toe; and I declare to God, Idoit a ith the utmost pails and reluctance. I say no SIMI/ can vote for this Bill unless lie thinks the substantial parts of the ',metallic proved; and unless I think the adul ts:tow intercourse has been proved, 1 c movie conscientiou s ly give ins , vote fur it. lii giving my opinion, I shall not deem it necessary to examine the evidence notch in detail. My duty is not to sum up, but uuly to state my opinion. We are all Judges, all Jurors, and do not proved on the priori tilde ufsuiniiiing up the evidence, hut fur communicating to to each other our opinious and discussiug the seine. Much lies beau said was the subject of* Bill a Pains and Penalties. and it has been often repeated that they can only be justified when the beets of the couniry requires that they should he resorted to. But not to go further back than the Revolution, there have hreu since that period several of Pains land Penalties. where no such necessity existed. 1 have stated more titan mice, in the course of these proceedings, that a Bill of Pains and Pen:Blies, if properly conducted, is more favourable—(l do not wake any treservasioo on its coasti. tutiunal or unconstitutional character)—to the accused. I mean if it is proceeded in according to the rules of law and evideuce. In proceeding by Impeaciiment, the House of Cum ))))) is decides un sx-parte evidence, and one single vote can decide a het her an lospeuchinent shall take place or nut, and if the House so decide, it has no remedy in itself. lit a Bill of Pains gaud Penalties. examinations take place nn both sides of the question, and in both roasts, so that arms error committed one day may be rectified the are!. But it has been said we are submitting the judgment of this Howse to time of the House of Commons; this is the case in all Bills of Divorce. It had been mode another cause of complaint, that her Majesty had not been furnished with a specificotiou of the cliaiges, and a list of the is Burnes. But huw could the charges be more elltctually furnished, than by producing thc:u at the bar, mid then postponing the defence till such period us the defendant herself chose? He admit' it, as ate had before, in the ease of ltaslelli, admitted, that great advantages are to he gained by tut immediate (rose-examination of witnesses; but these were fair more than e ainterbellaticed by the 111114/4 , 1411y of advantage given to tie defendant hyoids postponement uf the defeuce. House were also bowed to keep in remembrance that hes portent principle of British jurisprudence, thut. in every case of accusation, that occusatiou was no proof of guilt; that the party may be innocent, and ought to be held to be innocent, until clearly loosed to be guiity. Their Lordships would, therefore, dismiss every prepusession from their ism s and judge of the case solely triton Use evidence helms theta. He admitted that there might have been—Hutt their Lord ships might take it as his opinion that there had been—a much greater facility in the productiou of witnesses for the prosecution than in support of the defence. Of that circum stance theaccused party ought,orcourse,to have the benefit. He admitted also that there might have been corrupt ens deavours to procure evidence, and that was another t Irmo. stance of which the accused ought doubtless to have the benefit, not only as regarded the witnesses who were the of of that curruptiou, but as regarded others, oa whom it might throw a reasonable suspicion. lie had, in farming Iris town opinion, giant all these consiatrations their full weight.—The easy in which their Lordships aliould look at ahi question atavthisr—Whether,l>iug ustde all the testi mony that could be suspected, tool taking together the evidence watch ism unsuoit.cted petite part of the prosecus tiou, and the testimony in answer, with the negative evidence, or want of evidence, which intent wive been produced—dues it or dais it nut toopport the eltegai ion of au adulterous intercourse having existed between her hive:ay mid Bergamo f lle had so put the c re to himself, sad it did appear to was sorry to say it, but lie could draw no 11111tf than th it—there had been an adulterous iaercourre bassets Ace .11ajestj and Ltergada. (Stroll marks o Yealtilllllll lik! House.) His Lordship did nut cure ..Ithough tue at bole readeoee of al...pied and Duinuut acre docerded ; be would wily ask their Lurdships lit uecompaity him while he took a sums survey b ut the circumstances atteuding her filajesty's voyage to the Holy Time Learned Lord then took 4111414111114111 felllt%t of the evidence, lout we regret to state, that from the partiality of it, it bespoke much more of the aliiiister of the Cru m a than the unbiassed drguifi.d Judge. His Lordship cunclutied by say nog—one word in .re and toe should have done. A. to it ha: bed passed out sir dour., lie should take no notice of that, foie lie must be supposed to know uarinmc abut But whatever he might t honk of treat owl said, tic showd coniciciiiimisly do his duty. lie had heard Roma that bar whist it hail given I • great sorrow to hear—simichiug Ike a threat to weir Lordships—(blear)—Whatever might be the opinion alt of doors, he wuuld take upon him to say, that the conduct he ullialed to, was never consistent with the duty of an Advocate, and the threat ought to have au etlect upon the decision of their Lordships hear.)-4 11 ey stood there to protect toe liberty, the citaracter, and the lives of their kllow sultieets, and he would not Iteslte.e to say to them, " Be joust and tear not." They would do their duty, and leave the r es t to the wisdomand justice of God Lord EtifililNE agreed with the Noble and Learned Lord on the wu rlsoick, that their Lordships ought to come should to th e ; c s l u i a dt ° r l i themselvesw i th I extra neous canoes, bnt that they should be Willi . fear not ! He would go still farther, and say that their Lordships p lo er be a i i i t i tl na t e i t r i o t h e nr b il y , a t i l4atlhe should he prepared to do Justice at any hazard, and to adopt, as the rule of their cundio et, fiat justitis run t cotton —Ale (Lord Erskine) dad not know how to disch ar g e 1113 duty better to their Lordships than by laying his bre a s t open to them, and awing his opinion on those prucrtd _ •.'-! 4_ • '~