The Statesman. — London, England, 1819-02-05 00:00:00

mittee. The eirbjed Wog one of detail, a* well as of pest dellesey sal much informative being re- .1 gaited to form a jedgmeet open it, that isformatioo could only be ()Wined tbrosgb a Committee, wish* be should that night Propels no *seminal'. Heald not propose that night to take a fete ea the Merits of the qemoinn; bet meant to pet the Houle in posses sion of lb. urestioaltself ; sod it comeieted for him • then to state the velure of the propoodings be went to offer to the contidevelloa of the Hesse. Ile did I rot Yuen to rail "pee the Hoes* for any sew grant .of -covey to the Crowe; but on the contrary to di. vest the 'Crowe cattle,* fends which alreedy belong. I ed to the Establishment, and to apply to Parliament to unite loch deductions in the Establishment at Windsor u could not folks place without its sane. lion. His proposition then would go to enable the Crown to direst itself of the sum he shouts! M.O. ties, end piece the some in the Consolidated Fend, • so es to be applied to the eliessncies of the Stem.— ;Where've earplug remained In this pert of the Civil List et Use end of the year, should go to the Con. solidated Fund ; bot es to trying; that should be • Made in ether breaches of she Civil List, they might • be applied to certain uses connected with the House. , 'hold, wheuver it should be deemed necessary.— It was, however, the wish of bit Royal Highness. Bost whatever simples could be spared from the Civil List, sheold be applied to the faired., of the State. A greet of 100,0001. a year had been trade to the King for his life; well whatever saving swerved from that sem was •ppliesble to she wants of the Treasury. A Parliamentary proceed. log, however, world be sec y to transfer such sums to the uses of the Public • for without such poc•eding, the saying of 58,001. which was now lito subject of his Royal Highness's Message, would go to she Civil List. Parliament then was not applied to for a sow past of money, but for hs authority to divest the Crown of ibis sum; sod he hoped the House would consider this as au earnest desire on tbe pad of the Crown to to.operate with Pas lisesent in supporting the elipscies of the coos try. Ile should so• protocol to the gooier.' arrange. went be proposed to lay down. Out of the sum which constituted the Windsor Estsblishanent. be proposed that the sum of 10.0001. be appropriated to the *space attending the custody of his Majesty, and to be ender the maticeement of the Doke of York. If Pailiamuot pro his Royal Highness the high ea tbority in question, it would be necessary also to al low him the means of defraying the 'spumes attend. ant open it. He should now come to the Windom Establishment comprising the 100.0001. granted to the King, sod the 58.0001. which constituted the Income oath* King. Oet of • this sum there would "'potently be m using of 108,0001., subject to the necessity of making provision for certain parts of the • Royal Family. When the 58,0001. which belonged 40 the Queen was taken away, there was 100.0001. which wet hitherto applicable to the Establishment of the King. This Establishment be proposed to seduce to 50,0001., which should in future consti. tete the Windsor Establishment. A sum of 25,0001. . was also to be applied tau provides for the Is; end thou Moseying from the whole pithy present Wind. stir Establi , lomeot. 158,0004., would be 83,0001. Bus otter the 'enmities of 11141160e:etieweli.terseemists, Mould Is I hi, the whole saving wooletilleifewiseet to 108.0001. The savings were to be carried to the Civil lest. bet he amid not haves less rmrnue thee 1(1,0001. for the future Windsor Estehlisbment. While the late Queen continued at the head of t h e Es. tablistir there was a great difficulty in 'tempt. • log to make any reflection in it. Even those Gentle. so••••o who were minium to promote plans of economy in tits, Amu, sew that such a difficulty existed. In. deed, •lering the life-time of the Queen no material sayingcooedod be made. She was entitled to her own income of 58.0001. ; end If the King had died, she, Si Queen Dowager, world, by law, have been enti. lied to as income of 100,0001. How, then, could say saving have been needs in as Establisbment, m hich, for the King sod gems, arnoented to 58.0001? The whole gentian of saving then resolved itself hits a evestion as to the retirement of State servants, She saving caused by which would not amount so 8,0001. Being wow prepared to recommend that • reduction should take place in the Windsor Leta. blishment, he wealJ explain why it had not been done before. The Parliament certainty. had in coit• terapialion the probability of the King's not being able ever to recover ; but they had now the painful confirmation of many years, that there was not the slightest hope of see% en event taking piece. An Ides, however, prevailed, that his Majesty might es.' pariah" a partial recovery ; and it would he a most emelsocholy thing to think, that on tech en oc casion be 'tmid not And himself lerrouneled by those servants and officers of State to whom he had bees accustomed. The reduction, therefore, was never .4weposed, and it would have been most painful to • the luslings of lute htejesty to agitate a question of • the kind while she lived ; but now a line might he shows between whet weeds* to public economy, sad to the feelings of respect end veneration which must be ootertaised for the Royal Family. Its doing Ibis, ,a reference might be bad to the domestic habits of his-Majesty. There were many officers belonging to his lowa Enablishmeot who never had occasion to • perform any deity abut his person at Windsor; and therefore a saving might be made by the removal of those who had not been tp the habit of attending him 'there. The Queen, al cutlet of the King, • bad no power to remove these. the officers he •shetiold now propose to be revntree4 *ere, the • Viartdbambeslain, the Master of the Relies, the four • J.orearef the Bedchamber, and the four 'Grooms of •she Bedefusber. The sating occasioned by their .rll.OOl/111 00114 be sip!. The Lords of the fled. chamber ewer elteelled. at Windsor; but, while the' salaries of These were to be taken away, they still espressed a wish that the, might not be precluded from contisielog lo the service of his Majesty, by ' holding their appnlestenente merely se honorary oars—[f/tar, hear I) —It was neCielete that use high officer of impossibility shook,' be still vboitt the ponces of the King; and for Boit parilie he proposed to retails the Groom of fleer Stole, sled sills the sit Equerries, who were always bt Windier . Ho now wished to observe, that the Quest's income of 58,0001. was a pert of the Civil List, "Aide the Crows might apply to any other part of the Establishment. Het it was the feelin of the Frisco Ries; that this tun shoald M Lou t at the THE sTATvsmAr+ discretion of Parliameot. ils should pope,' to givote all the somata of the late Quosii.lhnie sass. ties derivia their Rtes; and there were trimmairraii to jestiTy a moasere of this kind. Their eitlirlift. did sot, on an avenge, ..seed one half of *her mole sent' ; therefore, acting on former pefiltdentit, he would strike • proportion betweee the ion and the other, in smiling the annuities they were to romiitte. It *Geld also he necessary to evoke some provision for those fervent. who belonged to the King, al though there was no precedent for such a thief. — There was so other mode of protecting those permits against the wants to which they roust be esposed, in case ef losing their places. Whatever inight be the wish of the Prince Regent, it would net be possible for him to admit into his make all Ikon who were tie longer wanted sheet the Establishment of his Majesty. Therefore, as by ens operation, a coo. aiderable number of servants were to be removed from the Crown, he hoped that limetafter the Parliament would devise some provision for them, however such a measure might be commay to prece dent. The utmost us that would be sentient I. 'satisfy every claim, and which would ntisk his Ma. joaly'a fertliags were he now to recover,'woeld set be greater than eight or ten thousand pooled,. If he' omitted any thing in his detail, he hoped the•Kiiiff Hon. Gentleman opposite would set him right. The , whole of the 'spruces incieding the pelf/sloe for servants, sad all subordinate attendants Seto com prehended, the House would see, in the sem of 30,0001. In order to anise at a speciAt arrange ment in this instance, which would embrace a proper degree of attention to the care and castidy of his Majesty's Person, as well as a proper attention to ithe necessity of an economical administratitin of the public property, much lobos' and deliberation were required.—( Hew I)—The result of them &Mier.. lions was now laid before the House, sad, according to the opinions of those who had the hone., en sub mit it to the consideration of Parliament, it +as sanctioned by every consideration that should pre. veil upon the occasion, as well as by every precedent that could be traced out upon record.-I . llear, Afar!]—His Lordship slated that he woolil move foe a Select Committee, before whom the IF:trimlya of the Establishment sere to be laid oe 'llinrsday ant. He then reed the neaten of the Gentian/is where be proposed as that Select Committee; b 1,.. the circumstance of their net being 'ltem. ;levitated from the Chair, we could collect only fallow. log : Mr. Tierney. Mr. W. Looda, Tar Chanceltaro( the Er- Per A. Max qt. rberiser Mr. Mlibroorres Mr. Laderift, Load Memel; Mr. Protium, Mr. I.) f0a1.... Mr. Boehm Mr. Yearet Fodorrold. Lord U. Gyro/lab. Mr. Warsley P-fet. Mr. L. WELLESLEY wished to pet mime clone tioes to the Noble Lord. In the'first place be was desirous of learning the ream' of the grant of 10,6001. to the Duke of York The reams assigned by a former Chancellor of the Kielieqee bad beets, that it was granted to defray the espies. of her Majesty's journies. Us also wished to It . *r, if the Duke of York, along with the of fi ce of disc of the King's Person, was to routine* aLlowid t t i a i t 7•Ai Aray ? Ambled oh* union of the the same person he thaseght there were serous *ewe mitotional objections. The redecrion that had bees aside be hailed as a good omen'; bet Minister' would be greatly disappointed if they believed the reentry would be satisfied with that alone. The Hon. Gentles:As declared himself a friend to econo my cad retreachmestt ; and from whatever quarter a proposition to that elect might cense, it Avoid hate bit best consideration. Lord CASTLEREAGH was ready to answer bet\ questions of his Hen. Friend : the 10,0001. was given to her lets Mejesty in ceesequesoe of the important treat which was coessigned to her when she was ap pointed to the care of his Majesty's person. With respect to the second question of the Hon. Gentleman —be was cot.tiuced neither the Hon. Gentleman, the Army, nor the Pidle, wished to me the Army left without a Commeeder-lo•Chief ; or to see any other person them his Reyel Highnem at the bead of oar army. Mr. L. WELLESLEY thought as highly of 160 Merits of hie Royal Highness as any individual amid do; be had only aeggested whether it was de sirable's' ludivideal, so nosily connected with his Majesty, sboold retain the office of Commander.in. Chief, and Gnus of the Royal Person. Mr. TIERNEY expressed his eatisketioe to Sod the Noble Lord did not call for any seddee decision epee this subject, sod that be was willing to afford time for deliberation. This was as it should be. Bet he most say, that he took rather a different view of the case from that stated by the Noble Lett The Windsor Establishment was now, in fact, one* away by the death of the Queen, and the arrangement es to the future became a matter for Fortissimo/icy ens. 'Adoration. The whole wee to be deemed a windfall. Bet according to the Noble Lord It wu het to be se regarded, and the [loose was called epee Se vote a certain seas, and to regard the remainder Ili a saw. log. He (Mr. Tierney) was not, however, disposed to adopt the view of the Noble Gerd, for he would look to economy Gist, and to the amount of goy practicable saving secondly. From the wish mad ex ample of the Noble Lord to consider tMs subject with every possible gravity be (Mr.Tiernty) was sot inclined to depart. Bet be could net help obeerving that tbe views which he had stated to the Hesse open a former monism respecting the Windsor &Publish went were, although strongly resisted at the time, now adopted by the Noble Lord and his Colleagues. lie meant what be urged VP.I.. h respect of so many Lords and Grooms of the Bedchamber, of a Vice. Chamberlain, and Master of the Reba, wet* wholly unoecessary during his Majesty's lamented indispo sition. Bet this opinion •was stoutly withstood by Out Noble Lord, who bad, by permits. a contrary course, subjected the coentry to the espence of 42,u0U1. Yet it appears that what he then stated was now lie Id to be just, and be lived to see his Majsety's Ministers adopting and calling upon the Hoses to set on the views wheels he had felt it his duty to errs several years ago. lie had thee observed, that it was quite anisecentary to pay Lords of the Bed chamber and other officers to mooed upon the King, who ceald *either am nor bras them, for It was a put of Ids Majesty'. sodical prescsipou to abstain from convelistion, and now it appeated that the. Lords volunteered their metiers withoot say pay ment. Rot why were not Lords as rips for genero sity in 1814, as they wringst present, or whence the change of disposition ? In 1814, the Ross; Esta blishment was divided, a certain nomber of Bedcham ber Lords being appointed for the Regent, wblle others were to mired at Windsor. It was contended on his side of the House, that the same Lords might attend at both places altentately, and the, s main of elleinelt 'sold she place. Bet now fear Lords were .dull to attend eaclesleely at Windsor. and their places at Csrlton.hoese were filled up by four adhe rents of the Governmeet. He could not help soy- Mg. that the Bed-chamber Lords appointed in 1814, to attend at Windsor were rather hardly dealt with; for they were to be the only sufferers by the Noble Lard% arrangement. They who were the oldest servants of the King, were In be deprived of their salaries. Much had bees said of a regard for the feelings of the King ; bet was it consistent with that regard Thos to act rewards his Ms. Pereenal favneritel ? He was persuaded 'kat Were his Majesty competent In compre hend this arrangement, nothing would be more likely to mortify his wishes, than to have his oldest servants and favourites dies illiberally treated. But how was this treatment to be regarded by say faked to justice, when the recent cootlect of Ministers was cotlered Since the Queen's death a vacancy had occorred among the Lord* oftl the Berl-chamber attending the Prince Regent. 8" instead of eppointiog one of the old Lords, to , whom ha had alluded, to fill that vacancy. the appointment was granted to a Dew adherent of 6 tb. Miuirter. Was this proceeding fair or ? —rlleatr. hear!)—Now as to the pecuniary parts of the iiO4 arrangement, he should say fist respect ieg the 1 J.OOOl. a year proposed to be granted to the eke of York, as the keeper of the King's sacred wises, that if his Royal Niemen were called upon to ismer any additional espeoce in censer:pence of this appointment, such 'apace ought to be de. frayed by the Public. Bat before he would con. sent to gine the public money, he most first know for what perms. When 10,0001. • year was granted to the Queen, the ground urged for the grant was, that her Majesty would to consequence of her new appointment, be ander the necessity of incurring (additional espenre for travelling. This ground did not satisfy his mind as to the propriety of the grant, bat yet it was voted. If the same grant were shown to be weoewary for the Dike of York, he should be ready to secede to it, thinking his Royal Highness, as he did, the Attest person that could be selected to superintend the care of his kilter's person. He was also reedy to grant say sum that might be actually requisite for the accommodation and comfort of the King. Nay, any thing necessary to present him a pleasing spectacle, if he could see, el to indite, any I of the caprices that might Wiese to his situation, or to afford him the slightest gratification, he (Mr. T.) wield most clieerfolly grant to his beloved Sovereign, if the 'space amounted to 300,0001. a year.— [Hoer, hoar, hear !)—Bet beyead this, be owed It Wised', to the Public, that he meld wet eee sisteutly go; that he would nor, indeed, rest Wee famhbeg whisk di& est fell ellide the nage of that principle. With regard to the austeent of the proposed Windsor Establisluneet the Noble Lord talked of 100,0001. of 108,000 i. and of 113,0001. indeed, the Noble Lord had so wrapped j op and involved his statement that it was rather diffi cult distinctly to define his object. Bet as far as be ; could conceive, the Noble Lord proposed that 50,0001. a year should be voted for the accommoda. i tints of his Majesty. Now how • Sovereign, who was precluded from company and conversation, who was enable to see, could require such a sem as would suffice to maintain any iodivitinal in the country is I the utmost splendour, was, to his mind, utterly Ind comprehensible. But the Noble Lord bad eat stated for what purpose this large greet was repaired. A ICommittee Wei to be appointed to enquire into the graveds of the proposition. Bat for that Committee he did not thank the Noble Lord. No, the 'hooks open this occasion were doe to the Gummi Election. It was to the meaner is which the Returning Officers were occupied at the late Election, and to the returns which they etre called upon le make, that the pro- ceeding of the Noble Lord was to be sttribeted. How ever, Ministers dial not cease forward with the tone of confidence which they were net long since in the habit of assuming, and offer to take the responsibi. lily of this measure upon tketeeelvee, without any previous engeiry. Their tone was changed, bet their dispositioe still remained. Forth.) , proposed a scale of expenditure, for which it was in his view quite im possible to imagine any jest necessity. If the Noble Lord would show that such 'spasm was really metes. eery, be would be among the first to secede to it.— Who WWI they who were to reside et Windsor, aid for whose accommodation such espences meld be re quired? Hit wets desired to provide only for the personal comfort and accommodation of the King, a compatatisely small sem indeed would be amply sof. ficient. Was It meant that the Duke of York was to reside at Windsor? If so, he shield know what to say to that. Bet it was said that some one of coosideretion should reside at Windsor, to ramie' the Council who occasionally meet there to receive reports as to the state of the King's health. The Noble Lord had observed that some great Nobleman should be stationed there for this purpose. Well, be it so; and any additional ;salience that might be simmer, for that purpose he would agree to ' as such attendance would be fitting the dignity of the King ; for he would not have his Majesty on such occasions wailed upon by a mere maitre d'hotel. He would not indeed leave him wholly, on seek oceesions.even to Colonel Stephenson, teach end justly as that incli- 1 videal was respected. Bat In the name of common sense, what occasion could there be for the attend ance of the sic Equerries whom the Noble Lord had mentioned ? Yet a table, truly, was to be provided for these Equerries. The whole of the Noble Lord's plan seemed table work, bet sot for the use of the King, for a few hundreds a year would be quite sufficient for that table, under his Majesty's melancholy affliction.— How then, be 'would ask, could fifty thousand pounds a year be deemed necessary ? This wet what he wished to knew, and which he must know before be acceded to the proposition. As to the assertion of the Noble Lord, that the Privy Pane was the pri. vete property of his Majesty, this he (Mr. T.) most distinctly dtoird. The arrangemmst, indeed, at tbn commtecoment of the King's reign was contrad:cto s y to such an assertion. According to that arrangensect his Majesty was granted a Privy Purse of 50,0001. a year, which grant was atternsith augmented to. 60.0001. Boa for what purpose no. this Rraelpterle? Why. to gratify his disposition to hanelicence—to perform acts of grace—to assist a favourite or privately to relieve the distress of some noble fa. ''oily, which, howesar Inners its necessities, could not possibly appeal to public charity. The Misr Purse was granted, he would maintain, for porposns of this aster., sod not to be converted into private property. It was granted not to be spared, bat to be spot la died. of betiovolenee end charity. flog since the accession of the Itegent to the Adminiatron ties of the Royal Functions, there were two Pony Penes crested, amonntiog in the aggregate to 120,0001. silty thousand pounds. year naviag bees granted to 11... Regent. Yet. in 1812, 10,0001. a year in addition was '.anted to hoe Majesty. New, be submitted, that if the •aose sues were doomed necessary to defray the ?spent*, of the Oaks of York upon hi. new P !1:1111nImeert, that sew should tether be paid out of ii.. P.ivy than saddied spots the country. Tl.O Physicians were, it appeared, to be paid oat ..f the pronoied grant, and ter 'hat part of the propostrisin La avoid, course, feel no ..bjection. He nett cumin tb• proposed remonoratiadvin Ins seafood to ?pilled tern vants of his Majesty not of the Privy Putts.. ers this bead it was asserted that the proceed illy was ((bonded on the premsmed wishes of the Suseieign, and what h. woold have most probably himaelf dna*, if enabled to nerds/ea discretion. Woo could say in what way, or in fe,nar of .wbat partially. plimsoll, his Majesty would exercise that di,cretion ? What Min Spell OHM could decide whom if would please his Majesty this to remunerate it. Coen if the '3e. vertigo felt welt a disposition towards one ..newt at outs period of bit life, who could say that such a disposition would have remained ensilaged ? —Neil, as to the remaneration to the Physia clans. On that point the Noble Lard had net given any esplanstion. It was stated to be 32,0001. per annum. That be believed to be an vivsk.ssirs., scent, the ansonut being, be believed, 28,0001. Soak a sum as that mast strike *my man as enormous.— It was, therefore, bet jest's to espisin it. lf, in what be was about to state, the icoble Lord coo celeed there was any indelicacy, hi had only to ea. press in any mintier such a feeling, and he (Mr. Tierney) would sot persevere. His desire woe only to give a reason why he would not press any ohjec lion to a charge which at first view must strike every person 29 enormous. lie bad thee beesagiven to ender- Mud, that when his Majesty was unhappily visited with the affliction under which he laboured, and was about to be committed to the care of Physieians, he hid made it his most earnest prayer to the freed.. Peressags, standing in the nearest reistion to Mm. diet he sever should be esciesitely placed andeediet ease of Physicians of a certain descriptive, to wises pastimes in his Majesty's coital+os were as .witboet having always in ettesadartce ewe s e els three other Physician*, whom he psrticelarly T i Ct That peewee be Massieed Tibie Ur lets most lent Majesty, and was by her 'most religiously tape. That promise being once maAt., it eta ha opinion should, under MI circuantaects, b. most seered.— [llear, hear !]-11 the constiossness of each a disd position could to 4 degree alleviate the sofferinge of his affliction. to remove it would be a mom her. heroes act. But. as one of those Physicians, dar ing the day, would be sufficieot for the purpose, he was divined to think son.* mediate might be rtrack out, from whence a considerable sating might he de rived to the country. On .bat had fallen from the Noble Lord, relativeto the remuneration to the tor. rants of her late Majesty, be (Mr. Tierney) fell him self much in the dark. They were to bate the whole of their salariesderingtheir Ilea! bot,additil theNobiss Lord, that was bet the half of what they before got. He nester knew that fact before. So that these ser.. vents, when the country supposed they had salaries of but 5001 per annum, were actually receiving 10001. If that was the case, one would Nippon that they had already received fell remuneration for Ik, whole of their deserts. They had been paid be forehand too, and the country had a claim upon them for the interest.—[A 14001.1 —The fact then was. that the Public was entitled to a drawback from them, instead of their having any claim epos the Public. Bet even heir, whatever was the suitors practice on the demise of the Queen, be was not disposed to deny. Ile had heard, that the practice was to give the salaries for life to the female rata ; bet he never understood the rale was applied to the male n ts. And the reams. given for the dktinetien we', that the successor take them; bet bet • they knew the successor would not take theta ; and it would be wrong to impose 4hem. Bet on what ground was it that a difference Was to be observed between these and the . deeestics of the Kiog ? Wes it bemuse they moved in a higher sta tion, that the former were to receive a remuneration of 45,0001.? As strongly attached as any man to the House of Brunswick, he was disposed to grant every proper end becoming splendour is the Royal Family, always meesering that disposition by strict justice to the mobile interest. Bet, while ha felt so, he could not bat impress the oenviction, that an establishment of 50,0001. per annum for the King, I. his present unhappy situation, was eenecesssry.-- Aod be most dissent from the moaner in which the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) stewed the question. It was not to be considered, as the Noble Lord coo. mitred, es a question upon which Parlisment was to enquire how much was to be sited? 'the slaty id the douse was to consider whet was to be espetided.— [llcer!]—To discomforts of :EP King, end to as much dignity as it could be supposed was neceseary in his suietion, he would willingly consent. It should be an Establishment suited to a King. A Nebletuto should have the supariutendence; he should conduce to reside in a Palace. There should ha a doe pro. portion of equerries; but not so eatraysgant a num her as sis ; yet, grunting these, adrised as he at p *- sent was, he could not agree to an Establishment of tech an amount as 50,0001. per annum. The N o tie Lord had not etplained wby such an Establishs.nt Ihnuld tike place; perhaps it was an omission. I felt it to be 2 vale of gr at delicacy. For liirt”elf could bate no other object, than to hearty ..is• r"