The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-05-26 00:00:00

ppm F , ! R -11 k I , I it 1 in particular cases, a mitigation of punishment should proceed from the Crown. Dr. LUSHINOTON considered when the pttnish aunt of death was taken away in case. of fn-fiery, that it was of great importance that a severe punishment should be its substitute. He was of opinion that no , thing less than ten years' confinement, with hard la bour, would be sufficient. He was desirous of tithing from the Judge the discretionary power which at pre sent it was proposed to confide to him. This he thought was doe. in the first place to the security of She Commercial World. And secondly, it was due to the friends to the ditninntion of capital punishments, to guard against the Bill being so framed as to give their opponents reason to say that the measure bad failed from the adoption of a too le,ient punishment. If his Honourable Friend would consent to it, hem as disposed to move that ten y ears imprisonment, th bard labour, should be the punishment of forg e ery, w ithout any discretion be i ng given to the Judg to mitigate the sentence. in particular cases they knew the Crown could be called upon to interfere. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY remarked, that proceeding as they were now doing, they might go through all the clauses of the Bill Without coming to any decision. Sir .1. BIACKINTOSH said, that it was with much uneasiness and pain that he had beard the conversa tion thus protracted, as it was an act of great courtesy on the part of the Noble Marquess to allow it to be brought on at that time. He was willing to accede to the suggestion of his ',earned Friend. He then withdrew the Amendment he had last snored, to ptppose a new one—that the punishment of forgery should be ten years imprisonment, with bard labour. The Amendment was agreed to. Sir J. MACKINTOSH withdrew the next enacting el..use altogether, and moved, in c onsequence of a wish exprcs4ed by the Learned Lord on the lipposite side of the House, that a proviso should be added, excepting Scotland from the cyeration of this Bill. %Ir. CK IPPS said, as other Ausencliwnts were moved in this stare of the Bill, he could not allow it to be printed and go forth in 115 present form without first snoring an Amendment, appeared to him as important as ally that had yet been proposed. He wool(' move. that to the e:.eeption with respect to Bank of Eocland notes, there should be added the worris—" or any note, check, or promissory note of any other Bank." A 3 the Bill at present stood, a direct inducement was Lehi out to forgers to turn from the notes of the Bank of England to those of the Country Banks. Sir J. MACKINTOSH suggested, that this was not the most convenient time for otferiog such an amend- meet. The SPEAKER said, it would be open to the Hon. Gentleman to move his amendment on the third res.l - hut having p a ssed over that part of the Bill in 'Which it was proposed that it should be inserted they could not now reve.l to it. Mr. CRI PPS inquired if it would be correct for him to move that the Bill should he re-committed. Mr. MABERLEY thought the objections of the lion. Gesstleman entit!ed to great weight. The Bill, as at present fratneti, went to direct all forgers to the Country Notes. 't hat man must he mad who would think of forging Bank of England Notes, when he might forge Country fetes without risking his life. Mr. LOUKHART Apollo on the propriety of pro tecting the country Banks. Sir JOHN NEW POll2 called the Honourable Gen tleman to order, reminding him that the question now before the House was, whet:ser or nut the operation of the Bill should extend to Scotlr.nd. A conversation on the point of order ensued, in which Dr. Phillimore, Mr. Marryatt, Mr. C.W. Wynn, and Mr. Bright participatei. The SPEAKER repeated what he had before stated on the impracticability -is reverting at that time to a part of the Rill whirls bad been dis:losrd of. Mr. CR I PPS wished to know if be should be out of order if he moved an additional clause. Th e SPEAKER said , they coutt! o nly get rid of the clause then before the House, by agreeing to it. they rejecting it, or by amending it. A further conversation ensued, in which Sir James blackintosti, Mr. Gipps, and Mr. Lockhart took a part. Mr. CRIPPS said, he should wish to move a clause to the effect of what he had stated. The SPEAKER enqssi -ed if the Hon. Gentleman was prepared to bring the clause up ? Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, rather than be the rause of any longer interruption to retard the important public business which was to come on that evening, he would agree to the recommittal of the Bill. The Report was then ordered to be taken into fur tiler consideration on Monday. On the Motion of Sir JAMES :MACKINTOSH, it was then ordered that the Dwelling-house and Navi gation River Robbery Bills, should be orderedatter on to be comm itted, the former on Monday, the l Thursday. SUPPLY—STATE OF EUROPE. The Order of the Day for a Committee of Supply having been read, on the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, :tit. HUTCHINSON said, that though he was extremely anxious to submit to the House his nintion on the State of Europe , and thou g h the delay was per eonally inconvenient to himself, he was induced, by the pof public business, to postpone th ob servationsrzssure he had to o ff er to the fi rst open day, e the 13th of June. Lord LONDONDERRY said, he felt himself ob liged for the accommodation afforded by the f honour able Member, and sh ould have been happy, i H e could by any concession, have made ao opening for his mo tion on an earlier day. Mr. HUME postponed his motion, which stood for the 12th, to the 14th of June. ESTIMATES. The House then went into a Committee of Supply. Mr. ARBUTHNOT proposed a vote of one million for the extraordinary expenses of the Army. Col. DAVIES suggested that this vote should be accompanied with more exact details of the purposes to which it was applied. He suggested that a saving might be effected by conveying the spirits direct from the West Indies to the foreign stations, as also the provisions from Ireland. No less a sum than 24,0001. night also be saved by reducing the meat rations of THE ST F..SMAN , the convicts at New South Wales, who were now better fed than our soldiers and sailors. Capt. MARERLY called the attention of the House to the accounts between the East India Company and U ov ernnsent. He consider ed that further retiring and ought to be made by the Company for the troops employed in the East Indies, and hoped, if no thing could be done during the continuance of the pre sent charter, that the subject would be taken into consi deration before another was granted. Mr. ARBUTHNOT expressed himself ready to afford every explanation its his power. Ile had been consider ing of the means of bringing forward the accounts on an improved plan in future years. With s view to make them more intelligible he had ordered a paper to he d r awn up. It was not yet printeC, but he bad it with him, and would call the attention of the Howse to it. He then read the paper, much of which was inaudi'ule in the gallery; b ut Ks de tails seemed to be perfectly sati n to the House. The accounts would be bror t :ht forward on the improved plan in future years. I:sevy attention bad been naid to the rations which had (bead me and the expense incurred under that bead bad been considerably diminished. Colonel DAVIE'', explained. Mr. HARINU tiislitil to put a question relative to one 'of these items. Befcre doing so, be complained ei 'he imanner in which these accounts were Dept. There was a sum of M, 100/. represented to be drawn no the Government, but titers was no detail :.s to Ike uses to which that sum was to be applied. Mr. AitIiI:TIIMYV explained tile circumstance to which the observation of the Hon. Member, Mr. Bating. referred. M... BARING thought the accounts ought to he made explicit, am: to be presented its detail. The Hon. Mem ber elluded to a Fan'. to turd Hutchinson as a remu neration fir horses taken in Zgypt in ISOI. lie thought it rather odd, t'sat this allowance was to he made in the year It This za.r.ounted to 33,000/. A further sum of 31,40.1. was also . zratited to Lord W. Beutiuck far stcres taken at Tarragona. i Mr. AR3UTHNOT could not but nisi' that hi= : Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad been present to a nswer the Hon. Gentleman's inquiry. 1 He could only say, that much correspondence had taken 1 place relative to these rensunerations, anal that they were not granted until every inve.tigation had been made. Ile believed it was not a new practice to snake such remunerations, as his Hon. Friend seemed to imagine. Lord PALMERWfOS wished to observe, that all captures made in war belonged to the Crown. It had always been the practice for the Crown to give not prizes see captured in action to the navy, and he could any objection to the same principles being acted upon with respect to the army. Mr. BAlLlNtli explained. Sir J. YORKE wished to call the attention of the Committee to an item which granted SOUO/. for the ex penses of keeping in order the Breakwater at lleli s rolantl. Now, he was of opinion that the whole island was not worth this sum. The period at which it was of ~ervice to this country was in the time of war, and now that race was arrived it was rather an incumbrance than any thing else. Mr. 60C1,8111. s said, that the word " Break water" was inserted is the Estimate by mistake The sum of 6000/. covered the whole military and naval expense the island. Dr. I.I.:tiIIINtITON condemned keeping up es tablishments at the island, and said they ought to be red need. Mr. GOULBURN said that the Government had . in contemplation to remove the principal part of the establishments at as early a period as it should be found practicable. Mr. HI ME was very glad to hear what had just fallen from the lion. Gentleman. He complained that the contracts for the provisions for the navy were made on lunch more favourable terms than those for the army. 1 hey ought balk to he placed on the same footing . ; and if one Ruled were appointed to contract for loth services, lie thought great savings might be effected. With respect to the allowances for prize-money and captures, if they were justly due, it was a reflecion upon the Govcrnosent that they had not beets paid befot . c. The Hon. Metuber then com plained tit' the ex;irnses incurred at lielitoland. lie said that there oc:e various eliargrs for allowances to individuals which ought not to have been Granted without the sato•Con of Parliament. He wi‘lted to ask why there was in the Army Extraurdinaries an item for 7009/. to the islands of Guernsey and Jersey. itc was not aware (*.tat this would appear in preyittas Estimate..., and he hoped it would be explained by the Honourable Secretary. There were charges also for inspection of militia in the lonian islands, a lienalthough there was not a m ilitiaman kept up. Ili said that there wer e agents there and in other colonies, re ceiving altogether a yearly sum of 301W1. for no par• poses of utility. Ile should therefore more the re duction of that gnat from the present estimate. — There was als t 2 t4lO/. for the allowance of private Secretaries to the Governors of the ditietent Islands. He hail understood last year that these charges were to be carried to another account : he could not see what they lead to do with the Army Estimates. lie should propose that the whole of the expense of these private Secretaries be saved. It was said that the Go vernor of New South Wales had been denie a pri vate Secretary. He hoped this was a pledge t d hat the whole of such offices should be a bolished. There was a sum of 2,6001. for the charges of retaining Bonaparte. Upon this head he wished to ask whe ther it was true, as had been reported, that this Go vernment supported the persons deputed by Austria, Russia, and Prussia, to r esiste in the island of St. He lena. He concluded by moving a reduction of 36,6121. from the Estimate before the Committee. Mr. GOULBURN said, that with respect to the Aus trian, Russian, and Prussian Agents at St. Helena, this Government did not pay the expenses of their support. The item of 26001. alluded to by the Hon. Member, was for the etpences of improving the house in which Na poleon Bonaparte lived, and which bad been dune in consequence of the complaints of that individual. With respect to the Private Secretaries of Governors of Islands he was willing to allow that their salaries had wo con nection, properly, with the Army Extraordinaries, and he, for one, had no objection that they should be car. tied elsewhere. The Hon. Member hod said that the !governor of New Sou+ Wales had been denials private Secretary. He had never beard of such an application having being made. That officer had certainly applied to hare a Brigadier Major appointed for him, but that was quite irregular. With respect to the Agents at the Colonies they were highly necessary, and occasioned considerable savings to the Government. 'Ate Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, that the Commissioners of 7.oreign Powers at St. Helena were supported by their own Governments. He understood that two of them bad been recently withdrawn. IL!)rd ?ALMEPISTON explained the item relating to the charge for the islands of Guernsey and Jersey. Colonel GROSSETT said, that the Militia of Guern sey and Jersey amounted to six thousand men, and the eriense alluded to was for inspectors, and 'or the whole Military Establishment of the Island. M:. HUME said, he did not se much complain of the item, as that it did not appear in its proper place in the regular Army Estimates. HUSKISS3I: spoke shortly against the Ameud ment. If the :lon. Member for Njerdeen chose to call for t snore detaiLd Account he might hare It. Mr. lIIPPS V.:ought a mere full explanation mishit, be given in same of the iteess in the Estimates. Mr. B;;ILLY did not object to a part of the ac counts, because some of them had already been be fa” the House ; but with respect to the remainder of them, ite thonglit if concealment were the object' lie by no means thought) the iaresent mode o; tuakitg up the Estimats was that which of all others would he adopted. ife 01014;11i a distinct statement should he produced of the Aceouuts between tits Go vernment and the East India 2ompany. The inspe :- tor he thought altogether unnecessary ; and he thought it inconsistent with public duty that the Colonel of a Regiment should be tleContractor for the Clothing. It would be much more proper that the Colonel should receive a specific remuneration equal to ihe amount of the profit. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that in the next year's Esti the accounts should be more detailed, but it would !difficult to make up such an account for the current year. The state of the account between Go vertiment and the East India Company, engaged the serious attention of his Maje.ty's Ministers, and the result of their examination would be laid before the House. Mr. MAHER'S explained. Sir CHARLES LONG opposed the Amendment. Mr. BENNET said, he had voted for the reduction of the a..mr, and one of his means for reducing it, was to reduce the expense attending it. He objected to the expense attending the Colonies, especially that of New South Wales, ftr which in one year Ibll,oool was charged in one sum, exclusive of the charge o f trim:porting- convicts. lie believed the system to be bad altogether : and therefore he should move for a reduction of 1110,000/. from the motion for a million. Mr. HUME therefore withdrew his motion, and the Chairman put the question upon Mr. Bennet's Amend- meat. Mr. MABERLY trnsted his Hon. Friend (Mr. Ben• net) would not press his Amendment. Mr. BE refttsed to with:raw it, and stran gers were therefore ordered to withdraw. The Committee then divided, when there appeared For the original motion b I—For the Amendment 32 —Majority 52. A Resointion as then moved of 401,3651. for the Expenses oldie Consmissariat Department. Mr. GIPPS complained of the very general manner in which the sums were stated in the Estima Mr. biAKERLY said, he thought th ere ou.tht to be . one general Military Depot in the country s and he thought the Commissariat Duties should be transferred 'o Ow Ordnance, whirl' would cause a very consider able saving. The services would be as efficiently performed at the Ordnance, and the first saving of offices and rents would be ultvions. It was true that the change woad remove the patronage of the Com missariat, from the Treasury to the Master-;:eneral of the Ordnance. but this was a circumstance which be really hoped tvoz.lal not be considered when the CTitom m:Ater was e t iscassing a quest:on ef economy. charge fue thi4 Department was not less tis.in 20 per cent. upon the amoant of the sums u hizit I:zoseil through it. To support this statement the Honour able Member went at considerable length into a 4 le:ail of the expe.nditure of this Department tor the hst duee years, an?, expreesed his firm opinion that reduc tion might be accomplished with perfect safety to the country. lie titnaght too that a saving might Le eitec•ti in the arack Department, as the present expen e se of lodgin ß g r the Army cost 201. per man upon an averal:e. Mr. ARRU I'IINOT !a1.% that, upon the proposal of uniting the two offices, he was not prepared at present to give as opinion. A reduction had been made in the Commissariat Department of upwards of 40001. and a further reduction was contemplated. Mr. HUM F, said, Ministers bad on the present oc casion a good opportunity to act up in their contem plated economy. In the year 1815, the vote on this head was for 20,0001. less than the present estimate. The number of C onmissaries at present engaged, was one-third more than ought to be engaged in proportion to the number of troops now in sea vice. There was a pens;on in this estimate of IUOOI. a-year to a person in the Storekeeper's Department, to which pension he never could agree. Mr. ABBUTHNOT said, that the number of Com missaries appeared large, but the establis be hment of Clerks had been red uced b y the number, believed, of 600. The whole Department had been so cut down, that very numerous protests were received from Officers on foreign service, complaining that they were considerably inconvenienced by the reduction. The duties of the Commissaries were of an important na ture. With respect to the premium alluded to, it was granted to Mr. Herries, whose long services and abili• ties rendered him fully entitled to it. Indeed that Oentleman was qualified to fill a much higher situ. ation than he did. Mr. BENNET objected to the salary and allowances made to Mr. Harries, which be said amounted shop.- titer to 2,4001. The duties were light, whilst a Coin missary-General, who had seen lunch service, receivei. only 2001. per annum. Colonel DAVIES proposed a reduction in the item of 6,2381. but after a few observations front Mr. AK umixor, Mr. R. Wano, Mr. Hunt, and Mr. N. CaLoma, withdrew I►is amendment, to propose a second, making the 'eduction 4,2391. On that amendment the Committel- disided—.. For the reduction, 40—Against it, 39—Ma:jority for the Estimate as proposed, 49. On our re-admission to the liallety, we found Mr. ARBUTHNOT proposing a vote of 137,1 35/. fur the et. pease of the Barrack Department. Mr. P. MOORE then said, he should adhere to the course he had laid down, and accordingly mea d to report progress.--(Ury of No, No: (io on!) Mr. ARBUTHNOT wished to proceed. Culoiel DAVIES said, that the subject was import. ant and ought not to he hurried. Mr. ARBUTHNOT did out wish to proceed agai an the sense •f the Committer, and withdrew the pail. mate. Ir. BRO(IDEN having left the Chair, the R ao , resumed, and the Report was ordered to be r ece i ve d , 1 on :Sunday. THE BUDGET. Mr. ARBUTHNOT gave notice, in the Am" , at the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was the i n . tension of his Right lien. Friend to bring forward o, n Budget on Friday, the Ist of June. He also gave notice of his intention to mote tin Miscellaneous Estimates in a Committee of Supply e n Nonday. The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, ad I the [louse adjourtml at One o'clock. LIST OF ?RR MITIORITT FOR RIDUCING 15,0001. Ix Fla COMINISEARIAT DZPARTML:CF. Hon. 0. Anson, W. W. [Umber, Hon. 11. 0. Benet* R. Bernal, Lord Bernard, H. Bright, Lord Miry, K. Calvert, J. Carter, R. Chalotter, t. Chetwynle, L. (*- cameo, 'l'. Denman, Sir W. Ouise, lion. 11. Harbert, Sir R. Heron, J. C. Hobhouse, J. Hume, Colonel Jobs. son, J. Langston, Dr. Lnshington, J. blaberly, J. MN berlc, jun. J. Martin, Lord Milton, J. Milbank, P. Motire, J. B. Monck, It. W. Newman, Colonel 01;81 1 1. ghan, P. Palmer, P. Pryse, D. Ricardo, R. Rice, A. No. harts, J. Smith, Lord Stanley, C. Tennyson, K. K. Tyote, Colonel TE LLER—Colo n el Webb, S. LLER—Colonel Davies. LUST OF TOR MINORITY OF 32, wit° VOTRD FOR 'MORA TOR SUM FROM THE ARMY RATRAORDINARIES FORM FROM 1,001),1'00/. TO tioll,ol l /. HAL Bennet, Sir J. Hoag:hey, H. Brougham, Lod fury, U. Cavendish, N. Calvert, L. Coneonnon, S. Crompton, K. Chalr.ner, K. Farrand, C. Forbes, G. Hipps, J. Griffith, E. Harhord, Sir K. lleron, J. C. Bob house, J. Hume, Col. Johnson, Dr. Lushingtos, J. Manin, Moberly, jun., J. Milbank, Lord Maws, P Moore, J. B. Mundt, C. F. Palmer, Pryse Prvse, Rice Rice, A. W. Gollarts, Sir U. Ito'oinson, W. Stuith, Cr boort Webb.—Tswin, Colonel Davies. wort Os TLACINEN WIIO VoTED AGAINST RSPIKING 1111 EITRAORDiNARIEs, lIT MIAOW. Lord Advocate of Scotland, S o licitorAieneral, T. Holmes, Viscount Palmerston, H. Houlburn, Sire. liurgli, Sir J. Osborn, W. Coartenay, R. Wani, Sit Itvani AI artin, Right Hon. W. Wallace, Hon. U. Phipps, Hight Hun. C. Grant, Hight Honourable F. Robison, Right lion. S. Marne, Right Hon. Sir C. Long, Right don. W. W. Pole, Right Hoe. C. Arbuthnot, Viscous lAmther, itotrlit Non. W. Hunkisson. Marquess alio i l o uderry, Hight Honourable 11. Bathurst, H. Clire,t P. "urtv"aY* ....... A lIUSBAAD SHOT BY HIS IFIPS. (rt. PARTICULARS.) TOWN Mud., SouTtawata.—Yesteram, Eliza Oats me, was brJuglit to this office, charged, before Aide man J. J. Satyr's, with the wilful murder of Sand llarsidec, her husband, by shooting him thrall* de head with a pistol, at their re•itlence in Westoiliblet, Southwatk. Hannah Stud.' stated, that she lived servant of 111. work, with the prisoner and the deceased for the be fortnight. lietwern twelve and one o'clock on no clay afternoon, her mistress went out, and did sot ts turn till b e tween seven and eight o'clock inor the et* ing. Just before her re, the d ecea sedordered ness to itia! mit ,:e tea, which she die!, and they (witsessud deceased) el l; e drinking it at the moment the prime rung lice' h witness went out to let her in, anti 'let she came into the room, the decease de said, " I thou& it was smile impudent faggot .He spoke fie in a jtlettlilr manner. Witness did not take her 01 spasm; lent waited outside the door in the passage; ii a few minutes her mistress calle.l her, and told kel to finish her tea, and the deceased again jeered IA s. d ying he wish ed " she hail not come j eered ha they (witness and himself) sere having their t can ea v et co mfortably." Mrs. Harmer replied, "so von ed or at same other opportnititv," and then fie asked he where she had been, ad if i was where she intended to have gone ? She replied in t the affirmative, and MAL that she had been to I litior,l's you Th e a ece asedthal said in the satyr tone, " I wish you had not come WO: and Mrs. H. replied, " Well, I can go again," asiti called for the shoed, horn, to pull ttp her shoes, OSP were down at the heel. Witness gave her Ike 0 horn, and tea brine ended, s'ie took the tea things/II into the kitchen. The prisoner then Caine dog ; itti% opened the street door, and closed it after her %ale!: violence, and witness t h oug la s h e w „, gone ont ; 4 1 a short time afterwards, when she went lip i n dot lour w i t h sonde glasses , sh e found her mistress gas,' hi hind the parlour door, as if she was endearoorisge conceal herself ; at this time her master Ica OW the table in a chair. She went d.)wn ilirecflr. and , afterwards she heard them at high words; the Pri,",7, she thought, spoke in a loud tune, hut she ceaiu "-- distinguish what she said. In a few minutes the le ceased elevated his voice, and she plainly beard bits! claim, " o—d b—t, I'll shoot you '.' She r ang; by ately to the stair head, and heard a ristol Fr not make a very loud report, so she thought there"! nothing in it. "The deceased and his wife fretias l _•, played with a piatdsl, pretending to shoot each other,asl the noise on this occasion was the same,or appeseedw, same as she had often before heard it. Mr. Harmer lo t frometly done this, and the prisoner ustullv r 31111". front him, pretending to be frightened. She at ia .r thou ht they were in joke, and never remetnbered st: pistols to have been loaded before. On Thne"b! ~_. saw the decea dal %%Ph billies laving before hind ear, table ; lie had cast some an Tuesday night. 4 0 .. 91 ,' 1 cutustance did not particularly surprise her. Mie i r . : not see hint put either powder ur ball into the pistoi': thong', at one time he did put a ball into the ne at _li 0 . a pistol, but she is not certain whether he kit it tbel lie generally kept the pistols in the parlout --11i.b4ro but she could not say what be dill with them .ait.d:,.. loaded them. After she had heard the pistol ' „ i i 't she sat down at the front kitchen window, alit... d artu had happened, and in a few :ninnies heart a‘e! -epos . ' of fire arms. She ran np stairs inimetliatfel._lo; der mistress screamed nut, " Ole! I have am tit:l . '' , _,, iusliand ; lie is dead run for somebody —fel l : "L -ine directly," and she appeared in tbe greatescer—e L.:, tuaginable. Witness ran down stairs, sod told t : t ; tan she met to run for a sioctor; she thenirhetorro he house, A Mr. Critchard's, nest door but oat , 1 01 and when site got hack she foun d .. _.011;0, If rnotti• picks* o f tali app ea r h a d be with h' were II nest w took ti nuttre -1 in sillt fire 'tbe PC pair 0 Iwo p took. _ to the No siert). /iv tit tll iOn S 6 day. trate a elo - pear of, 1 fifty Wit Jur