The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-03 00:00:00

.~ I .+r ~._ ~ perb;nl awnsnt n in cOnsrinsaat 01 ertiortorthe ,Inbabits•as *ere LA, of their mita' ripply of thweeednot Complained of. Mr. M. A:VAYLOR deleasleil the conduct of thr Water Work Companies. The e!kniect in N uesrion, he sabl, had been tinder judicial enquiry in a Cobalt of Law, and it was sot in the power of the House to inarfere. Mr.. FREgMANTLE stated his knowledge that many of the inhabitants of the petitioning Parishes w ere in want of this most essential necessary for domestic comfort. The Petition was ordered to he referred to the Com mittee of Inquiry, into the conduct of the Water COloPalits• • 4Ar.• DENISON presented a Petition from certain inhabitants of the Parish of St. Mare, Newington, sgaintt the Newington Vestry Bill. The Petition the Hem.. )lembtr stated WAS signed by 1965 persons while that le• favour of the Bill was signed by only HA k 'person. Mr. C. gALlritigr stipported the Petition, and oh /nerved that as she pill* einstained 3600 houses. the Padden in futons of the lslll could not be supposed to *SP , * tbeiratish. lie mentioned this %ins& mitslit be induced to 0........-----.. give the present Petition due weight when ihe Wu In question theeld come under consideration. lie under stood the second reading would be moved this nigh: ; and he certainly should move as an amendment. that the Bill be read &second t u n• that day six ;saunas'. The Petition was read and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. CURWEN presented a Petition from the inha. bitats of Workington against the Education - Rill.— lerel to lie on the table. Sir ROBERT WILSON presented a Petition from an individual Inhabitant of St. Mary, Newington, against the Vestry Bill of wilt Parish. The gallant Omural said he was sati'tied that the Bill complained of was an innovation upon the rights of the pathhion ers. It was an ex port fart , . law, in the nature of a Bill of Palos anti Penalties. After a few words from Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW. and from Sir RORKIIT WILSON in explanation, the Pe tition was read ; and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BURRELL presented a Petition from certain Landholders of Sussex, complaining of the present Agricultural distress.—Ordered to lie on the table, Lord CHARLES MANNERS presented a similar Petition from certain Landholders of Cambridge. On the question being put that this Petition be brought up, Lord MILTON rose. He understood the Petition ers to pray that the House would appoint a Committee : and in the propriety of that appointment he fully con curred with them ; but it was important that such a Committee should be perfectly unrestricted.--(Hear.) —The subject fur the peculiar consideration of such a Committee, was the taxes which pressed roost severely on the Agriculturist. Indeed it was impossible that the country should have tone through suck a war as it had, and that taxatime, the eonseqnenee of the war, should not he the roat of all the evils which were now pressing upon all. If, as had been suppos..l. the low price of corn was attributable nut to taxation, bat was *mere consequence of the war, he was very much mistaken. Ile considered that no inconsiderable por tion of the distress was to, be ascribed to the attempted MIIIIIMption of Cash Paynieot ; the attempt was, ne cessarily, a restriction of entretory ; and if currency were,restricted, how could the same price be obtained toe corn which weuld be obtained if currency were more abundant ?--(llear, hear, hear!).. --If Honorable tieutlemen expected from a diminished currency at; increase in the price of corn, they were indeed The farmer tou was mistaken, if be thought it pas-i -ble to obtain, in a ovate of diminished currency, tl‘e same price which he obtained for leis corn in the years )till and Isl 3. He thought the holding out any such hope a delusion on the country ; and a delusion too of a dangerous description. Ile was aware that I many respectable and very sensible farmers attributed the present agricultural distress to the supposed in adequate protection which was rendered to the arrival total interest by the Corn Laws, or in other wort*, the laws prohibiting the importation of Foreign Caro, But this also was a noistrke, In point of fact, no itn portatien of foreign r orn had taken place in the last two years; therefore, as far as regarded nor-importa tion, the Lamer was protected. It followed as a necessary consequence, that the present low price conlal . not arise from a want of restriction against importation!. The only remedy was a diminution of the expenditure ; for expenditure was supplied by the taxes, and the taxes pressed upon the farmer. This ressure, how ever, was not confined t o the farmer; for all classes were pressed down by taxes. This was, he conceived, one general and uniform cause of the whole distress ; and he repeated his hope that the expenses of the country could be lessscned. One great burthen was, in fact, eating up the vitals of the country—the Na tional Debt ; and it really was worthy the consider:l -tionot Honorable Members, whether some relief mold nut be obtained in that quarter without any substan tial breach of faith with the National creditor. I a his opinion, if relief could not be obtained there, it could nut be obtained any where else. Mr. CRIPI'S (we believe) admitted the distres•. but denied that it proceeded from the Call‘P stated by the Noble Lord. It was not difficult to lied out the real cause which in truth, was the late extraordinary crop. An idea had gone abroad, that a want of circulation was the cause ; bat he Mr. C.) did not attribute it to this. Low• prices prntiu.:ed a leasenin . of eirculation. With respect to the taxes, he cert:lid; thought there were so me which pressed unequally upon the Agri culturists. The tax upon horses, for instance, fell particularly upon them, and he trusted the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consent to its repeal. If the Revenue could not do without the sum produced ov the tax. He conceived a tax' upon the trader of Stork tnizlot be imposed, sr ithout any breach of frith with the National creditor. Mr. WES I'ERN, at some length, supported the ar gument of the Noble Speaker, the last bat one. He (Mr. W.) Ras sa ti s fi e d th e country was never so re duced as at present. The timers were distressed almost to despair ; and yet their distress ►r as not greater than that of the manufacturers : and this general distress he ascribed to the attempted resumption of cash pay; merits. The neeessity to reduce the expstnses of the country he considered as insliapens.able. • Another lassie of the A grictiltural Distress was the ithrasi tieralde lootectiou i! enjoyed at present for i twas . . -mown the! the ...ossify was destrueilvesaAlutEttgtiyM Agricilturist. Mr. PEEL begged to it 111 lesi word*. He was not in the Hoes* at the higiudblid the *reels of tbd Hon. 'Oestlimin (Mr. ireasti but he (Mr. P.) collected that the okservatisns et the m.o. Member referred ter the tsperafteu of a measure *biati be (Mr. P.) bad the homier to bring forward is that House. He gWld net complain of the introducing that sees saeoltou A motion for brin.iisg up a Petition. He repeated he should not complain. lie would mg-Fey observe, that a future stage of the business of that House would bring that measure under fair discussion : and until then be should rescue his sentiments upon that important subject. Until then he should he' silent; but be hoped the House would not, in the in terim, infer from his silence an acqttiescence in the observation:which Hon. Members might make upon the nseasnre in question. Mr. IiAItINU ash!, he could not think the mention of so important a subject at all irrelevant. The 'tight Honourable the Chancellor of the F.scheqner. however, had certainly Riven notice of • unitinn which t/ttld bring that subject more immediately nutter considera tion; and he hail no doubt it would he di.cuss4.4 with thataitention which it so seriously detnatoled.—(llear y L'ors hear. hear.) Sir C. ill . 111I.ELL agreed that the Hones Tax might to be repealed ; and said. that he should not con'sider a fa% open the transfer of stock any breach of national faith. He nnoleratoool that 102 noillione of stock were sold ont in half a year ; and a small per centage on so considerable a slim would scarcely he felt. The Hon. Baronet was Jima to proceed, when Mr. RARING rose to order. lie submitted that the Hon. Alemher could nut enter into uncle a consideratioe as he propooseol, seeing that the question before the House was merely upon the bringing np of a 'Petition. Sir C. BURRELL acquiesced. lie thanked the lion. Niember for the interruption, as he trusted he was always willing to he corrected whets in error. He certainty consideronl the tax he mentioned a fair one. Referring, however, to the cause of the agricultoiral distress, hr begged to mention, that as the t torn Laws did not ex tend to the I.le of Man, considerable quantities o f forcigu corn were stun : !glell into that Isle, and were then im ported into this country, upon II 1415 e representation that they were the growth of the Isle of Man. Ile hoped this part of the subject would he attended to, by extend isog the previsions of the. Corn Laws to that Want!. Lord - IL fi EN explained. Ile was perfectly at issne with an Hon. Member (we oresnme Mr. Crimes.) It was awned that low prices diminished the enrrency. Now he (Lord M.) thought that the restrietion_of the currency distlinished the price of the article From the hest information he had been able to obtain he thought the last crop had been deficient. The Petition was then loroonglit up, read, and ordered to lie o n the %slide and be pointed. Mr. H. SUMNER nose to MOW the second reading of the Newington Vestry iiill; hot after solute conversa tion with Mr. PLUNKETT awl the Sri:time, the lion. Member consented to postpone lois motion gotta Alotelay Ont. upon an understanding that his motion .liould ou that day take precedence of the other inotiuns. CATHOLIC CLAIMS. Mr. PLUNKETT rose to move the order of the day for the ilotise guilt.; into a Clitt:ttlittr, pursuant to the resohttiou of IVeolnesday lase. The Right Hon. letiol.er st...te,l that the Itesolo-i •ns l ie should propose in lip • (•..:liiiiittev. tetoultl otit ple.lffe any How Mt-mhor a' to his fiance emirs , . : anti he (Mr. P.) therefore, ari,reloentle.l that too dis,soission !pito those resolutions would he neceosao. lie l i a ise rut anxions that Ole conmein he taken by the should ra tisfy, loot only the pablic at large, but the persons more immediate!! concerned in those rocce,ritig.. Ile should propiete certain Resolutions. If tkoei• should be adopted by the House, he would on Tues day bring in a Rill founded upon those Resolutions : and he suggested that the second residing of the Rill 'booth' b.• fixed for Mooday se'unight. In the hope that 110 iIiIICIS I 4O O I would he necessary, he ao nl 4 ; rea d the limitations he proposed ; just presnming, that as the itesolotioo of Wednesday last was very general. the Resolutions he was ahuut to propose must una voidably be '.oniewhat more particular. The first Re gelation was, "That by several acts of di., United Parliament, certain declensions were necessary to be made by persons el:,-..ring upon certain offices." This, it would be observed, was merely .IM:sr:dare. The se cond W 04,106011 was, " That such parts of those De clarations as went to state a disbelief in transubstan tiation, and in appeals to the Virgin Mary, or to any Saint ; and to state a belief that the sacritice of the Mass was idolatrous, were trench. - speculative and dogmatical, and migh t therefore be repealed with, safiy." This Resolution, the Right lion. dleniber observed, had been adopted by Lot." Meliille in the year 17P0, anti would therefore he free from all objec tion. .The third Resolntion related to the Oath of Supremacy, that stated, that " eso Foreign Prince, State or Potentate hath or ought to have any jurisdic tion, tower, pre-eminence, or authority in any matter ecclesiastical or temporal. within this realm." The Resolution, after reciting those words seated, " That scruples were entertained by the Roman Catholiesl against the taking of this oath ; anti that it therefore became necesary to consider in what sense these word' were unalerstold." The fourth Resolution stated.'l ss Toat tlo:.s oath should be adopted with such noeli tit-alio:et as would secure the Proiest.int aseenolervey." The It!glot ilon. Member repeated that he thought there would he no division of o pinion on these Reso lutions, and declared his conviction that the prin ciple of those proceedings would not be met by any vexations opposition. Mr. PEEL begged to assure the Right lion. Mem ber, that speaking fur hinos..lf, individually, the pro eeedings now under ronsideratiol would not he met bv vesiticui op, oition. lie (M ..P.) was tersnaJ eil that She opposition in that Mouse the most likely to succeed, was that which was manly, direct, and temperate, and such was the opposition with which lie intended to meet the present T oestion.--(Clicers.) — He should not oppose the Speaker's leaving the Chair, but as far as he conld collect the L'lllir of the Reso lutions. as they were read by the Right lion. Member, he felt it iintossible to voticar in them, except fot the mere purpose of form, in order to enable the Right lion. !lover to embody them in a Bill. Upon the understanding therefore, that the agreeing to those Resod:Pions held out no pledge to sni.port them ill a future stage, lie should not at present make any oppo sition pp them. Before lie sat down he would say a few words with a view to temper what he feared were the to 05Ingtlille eXpeeatittlO of the persons interested in these proceedings: expectations harmed, no &tint, in censeopteeee of the rote of the Houses as Wednesday last. 'those perms oeglit Mbe rewinlett, that on a Kt' 4. fora _, than that eitsores of tibittlif bad Men himself ale magi only as las nippooitian slionld be leibperste se it OrOst decided, fur he invariably considered stto be consistent with firmness. He felt him adi to oppose the general principle, but he sin emels ttustctl that nothing weed be heard in the conrst oftebe discussion tending either, on the one hand to irritate Ito Protestant, or on the other to exasperate the l'athol. Sir tit HILL said he considered that the notice preeetling the motion had been too short ; and that the notice now given by the Right Honourable Oralleman (Mr. PlAnkett) was much too short. Pot the sliscussion of the principal question, it was his in tention to move foe a Call of the House. Ile could! not concur with he Right Honourable blentbor for Oxford (Mr. Peel) in his opinion that it was not ne cessary for the people at large to be acqirainted with the determination of that House. Sir JOHN NEWPORT, with reference to the pro posed call of the House, said, there was no wish no the part of the friends of this measure to avoid the fullest discussion. lie must be allowed to sac, that the Right Hoe. Hart. had not followed the example of the ilt r iOht klon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Peel) in his op- The manly and temperate, yet firm opposi tion wt tlaa ltight lion. Gentleman not only did bite herour, hut would reflect honour opoo,any cause ; and whatever might be the ultimate reslitlf of the pros sent question, he was sure three would et that rah jell be but one opinion. Lord MILTON and Mr. BRIGHT each said a few words, but Irma the noise in the House they were perfee thy inaudible. Sir GEORGE HILL explained. Mr. HOLNIE SI N lilt considered the time pro p.,sed for the second reading too sleort. Mr. Ix r that if the lion. Member would proitsdse ally other mode, he should be happy to meet it 'llse question was of the highest impertance, and certainly the public expectation had been strongly excited upon it. Lou•l A. HAMILTON spoke very shortly ; we be liever in support of the course pointed out by Mr. Pinni.ett. Mr. V. WYNNE thought if tier time propose:l for the second reading were enlarged. it would be imps- sit& to KT: tlerort;;li the proceeding this month. It 1 was !.e.-let -fly true that neatly Hon. Members would he cairril wit of Nom the Assir hot nn busi ness whatever irt.ht, he thought, to he put in cottipe titian) with this important national coucern.—',llear, hear.) Sir liEttßliE 111 LL suggested that the Right lion. lientietuan, (Mr. Plnukett) should name another day for the second reading.—(Cries of " Yes, yes," sere " N.. is a.'') Mr. PLUNK ETT said, that Ise was willing to meet the opinion of the House ; but it mast be obvious, that at present he could not collect what that opinion was. Lord CAS fLERF:AtiII, in a low tone of voice,' spoke, we rather th:rik, in favour of an extension of the time. Sir tair;Oltill . : HILL then said, that on the House rei.etvire; the Report of the Committee, he should move that the !Irise he called over that day fortnight. 1 lie Speaker there I, ft the chair, arid the douse resolved iv-elf into a Committee. Mr. Plk N liE I'l' moved the Resolutions be lead arkerted to in his speed , . 'they were agreed to with ont any observation. 'I . he House their resamed, and after a short conver sation betvreea the Cu ‘NCI::.I.Oft Of the Escuuot ES and Mr. Wv x NE, 111;i111 a point of form, Mr. !MAU:EN brought up the Report of thee Committee. The Resolutions eml oilier' in the RepOrt were then seraratrly p.it mid a greed to. Mr. P.. 1 Nli d immediately moved fur anal ob tained leave to bring in a Bill, founded upon the Re port. It was ordered that Mr. Plunkett, Mr. Wynne, Sir John Newport, Sir Henry Parnell, and several other Member:: shoed , ' prepare and bri•g in a Hill. Sir tiEtilltiE 111 LI, then moved, " That the House i lie called over on this day fortnight." Mr. ABERCROMRY thought the enforcing of the II call would he to expose many Hon. Members to the ino , t ...riots' inconvenience. 'I lee CHAN LELLOII of the EXCHEQUER thonght the day for discussing the principle Gould not be tined too early. Ile perfectly agreed with lion. Members that the measure had been debated with temper, and he bincerrly hoped that that temper would be preserved C•rottg bout ; but he thought the question could lost :re .lispuseti of to the satisfaction of the public, without a %cry full attendance of the Merub.rrs of the Howe. The SPEAKER. thee put the question op , ' Sir Oeorge Iltlt 3 :notion for thrCallof the House, which was carried without a cli‘ision. GRAMPOUND DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL Lord JOHN RUSSELL move , ' the Order of the Day fur the recommittal of this Bill. The !louse havia4 accordingly resolved itself into a Committee, Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the Bill be read paragraph by paragraph'. STUAI( I WORTLEY said, he objected to the proposed qualification of the intended voters. Indeed he thought the yr:posed qnslifieation conld not he adopted. The proposed qualitieation of " ten pounds a yeAr for the Borough," would require a more dis tinct statement. lint, in fart, lie objected to the qua litit ation as being too low. He had hall mach con versation with persons resident at heeds, and the opi nioasof all he hal spoken to (on both sides of pu!itics) agreed with him that the adoption of the proposed q ualification was very u nadvisable. lie thought the voters should be as respectable as possible,enti that the qualification therefore shonitl no: be too low. 'f hat of Westminster, fur ins:ance, lie thought too low. He wished for a riginerous, yet respectable class of voters i. and the tixilig of the qualification at 201. a year, he thought would answer thisobject. It would include e..ery respectabli tradesman, and would include a bot 4 Of between 2,0 00 and 3.000 persons. These were the grounds npun which he should prtiposc altering th.- word 101. to the Word 2W. iu the Bill ; let he shoal , ' not move to this . elteet until the Bill llv ; e reached a more advanced *stage, as it wilt wish elite flee ittobers Anti basu.aseppOriloik# ficieso . sidivrittg the saggestioa. XI -bartall (TON approved of this mode of Iteformi, ‘. of which this Bill was an instance. He 'Loggia iti mid be advisable to make Leeds a seot =a Ist bar rough, open the principle that the Infiniti; elsaset-tit society were entitled to as much ?weeksw as oho superior, sod therefore should, under ceriaiti qmilitis cations, b., admitted to the enjoeutenCol the electis't franchise. He protested &gains - the word .4 respect. able," as a distinctive deuoutination for any order of the community, fur he was.persuaded that every mars in every class, wits, octet) worthily and usefully, was a respectable man. He would then recommead kis Noble Friend •o ahandon all qualification whatever. • • Sir It. WILSON thought th.. lion. Member fur Yorkshire rather sultappy in his choice Of example' to illustrate the evil cousequeuces of au extended right of suffrage. The Hon. Member would litul• that the eler live franchise had been exercised with the greatest purity by the electors of Westminster. The borough which he (Sir It. W.) had the hpnuar of representieg eras a "cot and lot borough, ant vet bit first ileetior, though contending against great wealth and respect ability, coat him but 7001.; and the last, including advertising, paper, &e., the expalsol did not amo tut to 3410 f. His principle was, that representotion should accompany taxation, and•as Ste loarr orders paid is great portion of Wef t so in the same proportion ought they to enjoy the elective : Mug:him. • -Lewd 4.. RUSSELL wished that am Member fur s' • •:r Yorkshire would propose his aosentlutent now. . M. S. WORTLEY had no objection lb do sot He feared that between him auJ the Hen. Member o.r Southwark there existed a radical difference too the subject of Reform. His opinion was, that propertF should be the basis of represente.tion.—The Host. Member, on the contrary, would give the preference to new' era. Sir R. 11 - •11.90N said that the principle of the Hon. • Member would still give the inferior classes a title to 1 the elective franchise; for they had propeity—isanicl, their labour ; and they pail out of their earnings'at the rate of ten pounds in every eighteen pounds fur poor's rates and takes. Mr. S. WORTLEY said that the 11 . .. ! u. General's i • explanation wily coot inceti Is' of the great difference that existed between them out tis • subject ; for it turned out that he (`ir It. Wilson) uas an advocate for Uni versal Suffrage. Mr. T. COURTENAY supported the amendment upon the principle on which it was professedly intro duced. Will respect to Weaimitister he could only say that the electors tlie.e were most grossly catgut niated if great rorruptism had nut been prarti,ed there. He did not allude to the last election, for it would wit; be Parliamen:ary to do so. lie understood that tax's to a considerable amount has been paid there to entitle several of the electors to vote. After a few words from Mr. GCHNiev and an expla nation Irons Mr. WONTLni. Mr. BARING said, he did not think it imports": in principle, whether It'!, o r 20/. wa s Axed as, the rate of qualificAi , .n generally si:eakiug, but ho thought it of consequence that the House upon this, the first instance of its recognising a principle, which perhaps would be acted upon iu successive times, should deilne with somewhat more precision that under other circumstances would be nciessar., Site ex tent to witioh they would go. No doubt, ittleghda tion, property was the beet security :for the perui I [tepee of social order ; but it nail equally undeniable that great benefits had arisen from Wedding with pro perty the sense of the pourer or leis fortunate classcs of s..ciety. If therefore, the system of viipreseutation in this country had been to be settled for the first time, it would be wisdom t.s attend to this principk, I.r they hail in Erance an illustration of the ill const•- quesit•es attending a limitagon of the elective Iran chi-e to property simply ; therefore he approved of the plan upon which this ilill set out. lie would enter tain no ohjection to the extension of the elective fran chise to persons rated at Int provided that it 'was graduated upwards, for thou there would be the snot perfect system of representation—the security derived from property, and the good will of the oilier classes of the community. With respect to such ;dace! cs Westminster, where the franchise was so extended, al though there might be very little e xpenditure, there was yet what uas equallf obnoxious to the true spirit of representation, three was ail over and above ex pentlitnre of noi.setise there.—(ilear,antl laughter.) — With great defereuee for the lion. Gentlemen who r..- preset:n.4l that plaer, he would be permitted to t It serve, that no candidate could starts be:bre electors of Westminster, wills any expectation of succeeding to the representation, 'inlets he was able to t..lk relit nonsense as he would be 'stowed to speak, nut Ist,li before Gentlemen, butt even before a company of per sons possessed of the least capacity or common sedge. Sir It. WILSON rose to er. ler. He begged to s..y that one of the Struthers for Westminster was nut . 14 Iris place, and that the other--(Order, order.) Ito nits *lire lie w..e in oiler when he interposed ft r the 'turps . . of observiug that no lion. M:onber had a right to say that auuther talked such nonsense to Lis constituents, as lie would be ashamed to speak Mae any company of persons of common sense. He wished that the Hoc. Member would do thesis the favour to awed some t.f those meetings, and judge for hints. If whether or nut their language was ut such a hature as to justify the exttaortlivary ituptitati•in of the lien. Member.— (Order, and cries of ('hair.) The CHAiRMAN said he dill not think the lion. Member (Sir It. Wilt in) was alluded to in the ob-er estions of the Hon. Gentleman who preceded him. At all events he was not ju-!ifi-t1 when s:andiog up to order to, make a speech in reply. Ale. BARING said dist he dm not mean any thing disrespectful to the Representatives of Westminster : his admiration of OM prtkent system• of repretiotscott, which very property embraced a part.of :beams* el the infefrot older*, would be tueunsistent with.* con demnation of the state of representation of tVe.t minster .and iudee.l, be s'.. *old say that the Menthes for tt estwinster, was the Member in that iLowe -31tem he li•ortiti LE m ist sorry to lose. He spoke of the principle of representation generally, lie only took Wtitsitinster as an instance of that which was the same every where, where the circunistaneee wars the same ; and • altere represeutatioa descended ao far as it . did in. WestusLester, among the lower orders, it [nutlet the 'ewe tU,attle candidate wh t t dice d west &Owe was the verso* •Is‘ist' likely to obtain snecess. But, advocating is' he 1 4641 tffe p•o• priety of mixing IF so large a tbt.re of tut popasar ,O. ••••• ff - t• S. Sir be