The Statesman. — London, England, 1820-09-06 00:00:00

! I M Moir N 1 1 ' i ) i i f > NINg • -Amonm r r. Eliminati•n resumed. You sAy tail o r Wei roe by Schiavini ?—Yes. Is the bode of by biro ?—Yes. About that time was iavini in the habit of giving rerefieitei to krises quitting the service of her Royal HigLnees ? - . Mr. &maltase., That )1 an improper question,—he should rasher be asked in what situation he was at that time. What situation did Schiavini hold at that time ? Matostbal of the Palace. When the servants left the Palace did any person usually gore their character ?—1 have not seen it prat:- Used. but Majocci gut a certificate, and Schiavini gave it him. Was Schiavini Master of the Palace when he gave it him!—He was. Did toe apply to him for a certific a tet—No, I did net. How . long before you quitted did Majocci go I—Ma jot* wen; before me. How Lung ? I don't recollect—ahont two months. 'The ATTORNSTAiIINLIIIAL thought the certificate might then he read. Mr. tlant•onsit contensied, that they had got no fur ther than they were before with respect to the inadmis hibiiitv of the paper. The Lugs CHANCSLLOR read the question and answer the beginning of this. ERSKINE observesLthat a single instance would I tint prove the custom. (Here that part o: the evidence before alluded to, was oNfered to be read.) Mr. Bnovoir sm observed in the course of the reading. that the answer of witness, in which he stated what bad beta told him by another, was not evidence, and ought not to stand on the Journals. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that what had been said to witness by a third party was not evidence. The Arroenst-tiartanat stated, that Him could show that the certifiate in question was riven to witness by a person authorised by her Royal Highness, it was ma ficzent authority for producing the paper, without peer leg her llov.il Higness's answer (the reading of that part of eriance to which we have before alluded.) The ATTORNET-liSSERAL again observed, that the evidence to which be alluded 'hewed such a connexion as to be prima facie evidence that Schiavani was in a situation to give characters to the servants of her Royal Highness, and that this would let in the reading of the certificate in question. Mr. Baocuiram said that he did not before feel it se emery to trouble their Lordships on the subject of the seal. On looking to that seal, nu mortal eye could see any impression on it. Nay, not even a microscopic eve could not discern any thing on it. It was a piece of fiat rat, on which two circles and nothing more could be observed. The ATTOINKT-GSNIRAL SSW. his Learned Friend had spoken of a microscopic eye ' • now he (the Attar ney-lseneral) did not po good eyes, yet be could Fee on the seal both arms and supporters.—(Here the seal was examined by some Peers.] Mr. Beoccitsst said lie bad no objection to the seal being examined. but he protested against the paper be ing received in evidence. /dr. Demur observed, that there was no proof that the seal was not affixed to the paper by Saccht himself. The paper was not received in evidence. Reennied.—You were askedjust now about a family of the name of Marietta, who are they ?—1 know several brothers. Had they a banking-house at Milan ?---They had. Have they also ono et trade In Londe. ?—I do net imam if it is in their name. a you know that there is a Firm or Company t-1 do. Is one of the Mariettas a partner in that house ?—Yes, I believe. Do you know if the Mariettas are Bankers at Milan? --Once they were so. You stated that two months ago one of the Mariettas called on you did. On that occasion did be state the purpose for which he called Mr. BROINIFIANI objected to a conversation between Mr. Marietta and the witness being placed upon their Lordship's Journals. The Arrunerr-tiascasi. contended that be had a right in re-examination to ask any question as to a sub ject which had bent brought forward in previous cross examinations. The IaORD CHANCELLOR dir'eted that such a part of the evidence should be as related to this converse- This having been done, Loan linsaixa said a few words in favour of Mr. Brougham's argument. The Earl of Llvraroof. observed. that in his opinion, the Attorney-lieneral had a right to cross-examine the witness to the whole of the conversation in question. Upon the mere question of law, however, he wished for the opinion of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack. The Lord ell ANCELLOR delivered his opinion, that, as sooting as a fact, that Mr. Brougham had examined generally as to a conversation, it was competent for the Attorney-Beneral to take the grated of examination for which he was contending. Mr. Snowman then requested that the note' of the evidence might be referred to. They were accordingly referred to, and Mr. Attorney Peneral proceeded to pet a question in the following Serail: — Upon what occasion did you tell Mr. Marrietta you were plug to giv evidence against the Queen—what iodecod it Mr. &moon tie (Netted to this question as not arising sot of the cross-examfoatioa. Mr. Dastn•w follow.* Mr. Broll,lllllo in supp ort of the ' nod submitted eras nothing never which larietta bad said to the witness could possibly be missal. Mr. ATIOMT-0111118111411. admitted the proposition that nothing could be asked on a re-examination, but what fairiy arose out of the ova-examination ; he yet contended that this quostios did substantially arise out or Mr. Uroaghasn's cross-examination. He (Mr. Brougham) had examined the witness as to what bad itamesnl between the witness and Marietta on a certain occasion. and he clitr. Attorney-Oeseral) contended that be had as equal right to examine to the whole. Mr. lisouonam replied. awl attempted to distinguish this question from the general rule. The LOIDCIAINCILLOIII was of opinion that Mr. Attor sowlieneral was regular in his question. Did any conversation relative to your being a witness here, pass between you and Marietta?—Marietta same to me one morels/. awl told me that his brother bad tel Oita that Mr. Brougham, brother of Mr. Brougham. her Nafesty's Counsel, to whom he. Marietta, was indebted for favoura— ble. Baoursamis row. and protested ageless this hear say aviilearo, when ha was called teenier by Lord Ex nowath, sad the arias of " Order, order, order,' resseadod Mrooerally. ifistroosatt cemplalned of this ioterruptioa, and astawl. “ Is it the pleasure of this Nona to bear me or oat r Lied lisereesslsesiGed his =Him( Mr. Brawling' to swam end echoed dist bo seseedered it improper is aay 4:•••••1 Worn. Moses la say occaskso what. over. Lord that said, be thought the Howe mid ill i I I t o t * . -discharge it. duty if it did not peruit 110 Commit at the Bar to do their'.. He considered the interrup tion of Mr. Broughams highly proper. Lord liou.smn coincided in opinion with his Noble Friend. He considers.' the intetruptien of the gallant Vitruunt as most irregular, and requested he wombd ir forts: the House what was the duty of Counsel on those occasions. Lord Harlot:Tit said, be should decline the Invitation of the Noble Lord ; but he should nevertheless con- tinue to interrupt a Counsel if he considered that Counsel ont of order, though he should interrupt with temper ; and I.e assured the Noble Lord that be traltl not be put du:va by him or any Noble Lord in that House. -- --- The Lord Cm ismit.t.ost agreed: that the Counsel had a right to interrupt a witness, when he was about to state that which was Not evidence. 1.0110 EIIeKINI concurred. LORD RaDUIDALS said a few words, which Were illetl• dible below the Bar. Examination resumed. What did you say to 3larietta, respecting your being examined as a witness?—Marietta, whets he came to me, he had already been told by sworbtuly, that I was one of the witnesees against the Queen s sod he asked sue whether it was true. I answered in the allltmative, and he told me.-- lir. throw/ interposed, and actin submitted, tires this line of examination was clearly irregular. It opened a door to hearsay evidence, and put an end to every limit which had already been marked out for a re-examination. Mr. A rTountr-ClastruAt. shortly contended fur right to put the question. Mr. Beet out% replied. On his first endeavouring to speak, thete was a cry of order, but the Lord Chancellor observed Mr. Brougham had a right to reply t o the Attoreey-Oeneral. and Mr. Brn'iltillu was then suffered to proceed. He stated thr ■ thief which in his opinioa would result to the a al igni tion of justice, if this line of re-examination was' pet. mitted. The Earl of LAUDERDA LE spoke a few words in fa vour of Mr. Attorney-General's argument. The LORD Ettancat.Lon now asked " what was the question before the House." The Clerk read the question. 'The LORD COANCIELLUR suggested that the question should be put in form, and objected to in form. his was done accordingly, and Lord Easutxx rose soil expressed his opinion, that the question ought not to be put. The Loan LOAN( lILLOR agreed with Lord Erskine that the question in this shape was objectionable. The ATTOIRNEY-UIO4IIIIIIAL then asked—Did Marietta say any thing to ye:* whet. you told him you were to be a witness against the Queen? Mr. BROCONAM again ohjerted, The AT fORNIT-411VeraAL then put the question thus ; —Before you will Marietta you were to he a wham bad he said any thing to you about it ?—No. Mr. Arroastav-licalast. ag..in attempted to put a 'waives* to their essovssrartioa s but Mr. *rep &mu refused to sorroodor his objeetims, aid the Seas, after some irregular conversation, referred to the Judges, sad it was agreed that to-ororrow sootaiug a case should be put before them in form. Adjourned at five o'clock until to-morrow. THE QUEEN. STATIOSNAN-OPPICIE, TIM DAY, Two o'CLeer. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tummy, Barr. I. (ZIOUTIENTII DAT.) Prayers were read as meal, and the Peers were called over. TM defaulters were Lord Alvanley 11/111 Mark Blessington aid tirosford. Lord Kenyon then rose for the purpose of renewing his motion of yesterday. His lordship made a few re marks on the enormous espences which these peecead ings were likely to entail upon the country, and con eluded by moviag for a copy of all correspondeneewhich had passed between his Majesty's Hovernmest endive Majesty's advisers, and of all sums of money paid k) her Majesty since the limitation of these proceedings. On the modes being read from the Woolsack. Lord Kies rose to second it; the Noble Bari. Li verpool, bad told their Lordships yesterday, that every facility would be provided for the giving this informa tion at a proper time, but he (Lord King) emsephod. that there could not be a more proper time thlitt the pretest. The Earl of Ltrearoot. observei, there would be se dilkulty at a proper time to afford the Home every information on the subject embraced by the Noble lord's motion. He, however, conci•ived the present period of applying for that information highly liken renient, and be should therefore oppose the motion. The Karl of LAUDIRDALIt said a few words, which were perfectly inaudible ; we, however. understood the Noble Earl to be favourable to the motion. The lierPuf Denxt.ry supported the tandem ■tented on the palpable profusion of ',pence which list .11111111611sarily be canna by those proceedings. At all mine he cooteived the House should be possessed of the . 10111010111 km required by the Noble Lord's motion. . Tba Lstn CuatsesLLon put the motion from the *eel. seek aiitt declared that the sense of the House wee In favour of the motion—A division, however. was sailed for, and strangers were ordered to withdraw. On our re-oeseission we found that Lord Kenyelsbad gained his tootles by a majority of 110. Counsel were then called in. - The Loan ensprottLon briefly addressed the House, explanatory of the question on which k was yesterday deckled to take the opinion of the Juices; after which, the Judges Mired to coatsultoo the Nona referred to their consideration. Mr. Baotrosast iumedlately rose, lad stated, although he was at all times aawillin6 se idols of abases of . the ?resent occasion, interposition i sot panisliweat, as for the parties alleded hoes sass apes them. whieh he had the ' his duty to cell for Ilea, or swarms!, lcis. Is girls, oriff of the Morning papers had Callen ithvl grow had flagitious naht..ke. He sail flagitious, because he was convinced" that no wan who heard that part of the evidence could bare unintentionally mis represent it in the isomer that had been dorm. The Leaned Gentleman then read from a Newspaper the part lie complaibed of. 'He stated in reply to a question pat to the witness, that Mr. Brougham's bro ther bad offered favours to those who refused to go as witnesses against the Queen, thereby nut only charging that Honourable Relative with tampering with tbq witnesses, but with that for whiuh the Court wah bound to visit them with its itmost severity. This, my Lords, said Mr. Brougham, is nothing like what was said, andl:cannot conceive any thing more gross, more scandalous or more flagitious than this, and if there is any thing on which I am ready to concur in the opinion of the Judges being taken it i. this. lam now ready to waive all objections, and earnestly desire that the whole of the matter may he probed to the bottom, and i if a charge should appear to be made against me of the nature attributed to my honourable relative, I am ready to waive my privileges as Member of Parliament, in order to give every facility to an inquiry being hod totted into my conduct. Indeed, the only thing I am apprehensive of is, that your Lordships will nut go into it. I, myself, put into the Noble Earl's band a letter from old Marietta, complaining that his `son had bees threatened by Col. Browne with being sent out of the country, under the Alien Act ; and, I I am nut sure, that that was not the origin of this mis take. It was I also, who told Earl Liverpool that young Marietta went to Sacchl, in the same manner as be had a right to go to any witness the cause, to know what evidence he had to give. In the same manner as Reigard went to him ; and as it was bisdaty to go to every one connected with these proceedings. And in the same manner as the Lords of the Admiralty. yesterday sent for two naval officers, witnesses on one i side, to question them as to what, evidence they had given in this case. The ATTORNIT-OIHRUAL vindicated himself from the charge brought against him by his Learned Friend of having receited communications on the subject of the conversation with Marietta, from one of his Majesty's Ministers. The fact was, that he never heard from any quarter one word about that conversation till it came out yesterday in the course of the cross-examination ; and on that information, and on that alone, be had pet - ceeded to re-examine the witness on the subject. Ile thought therefore his Learned Friend ought to le cautious how he threw out that insinuation, and before he charged him with a coalition with his Majesty's Ministers. He had thought proper to make this expla nation which was entirely distinct from any vindication of the state of the press, which was certainly not what it ought to be.—(Hear, hear.) Lord LITER pool. begged leave, as an envision had been made to him, to statel the circumstances of the case as they hadhappened. It oas tree that the Learned Coompel ;lid, three days ago, employ a Noble Earl to put a letter into his hand complaining of representa ,tions baring been made with respect to Al. Marietta Maid Col. Biwa. On that occasion he isentedintoly satisfied the Learned Gentleman that there was not the smallest foundation for the reports complained of, and added, that IL Marietta might assure his 'on that he would receive the fullest protection from the British Government.—(Hear.)—lt was, however, material for him to state, that he never hail any communication with the Counsel at the Bar, n ith respect to this letter. (Hear.) Lord Mat.vh.t.a observed, that as it had been stated, that two gentlemen bad been sent for on the authority of the Lords of the Admiralty, he should beg for their Lordship* indulgence, whilst he detailed the real fact, leaving them to judge whether the representation was at all correct. A professional gentleman had made an application to him, as it was customary from time to time to do, to ascertain the places of residence of any individual under their controul; and if any appli cation of such a nature have, or should hereafter be made, lie should act as he had then done. Tbe person whose address was required on the pre sent occasion was an English sailor, who had been for meriy on board a polacre of which their Lordships had hears a great deal , and as the two o ffi cers in question were on board that polacre, they had been sent for to state if they knew any thing respecting this man. He had not been traced, but lee could state with certainty that no questions whatever had beets put to these gen tlemen relative to any other matter pending the present proceedings—not eves the most distant point. The LORD CHANCELLOR Said % it certainly did appear from the notes of the shorthand writer, that the re port of the publication in question was by no means consistent with these notes. Publications had gone forth with respect to these proceedings, which woalii hereafter become matter of legal attention; but it was a question how far 'it might be expedient to undertake any steps at present. The Judges then retired. About tea minutes before one o'cloek, the Judges returned, and having differed be ophsion with respect to the question proposed, Mr. Jostles Ricoannanst, be th_crunsest of the Judges. ruse so give his °pi - . 'The questions that were submitted for their Lordships consideration were, whether upon • trial of an action between A. and B. the witness, C. B. upon his crosrecausioatiost hod stated GOMA past conversation that had occurred between him and another person D, the Comm! would have a right to require from him the entire of that conversation. In this, be concurred with all the Judges except one, Raub*, that such a course was entirely contrary to the proetice and image la such cases. The need ;location was, whether this was so in rei t/foal seisms. With respect to the second question, • me se dilliwiere. Justin BUT does rase to give his opiaioa. He said that, serer in his life did he feel himself pieced is a were embarrassing situation. Ver in the resew la wawa% he hod to differ is opialea from all thou with whoa be bad heels is die habit of sotwarriag. Hewer**. he felt it his duty to fors hie own opiaioas whitest paying regard to those of Nimes. The !warmed Jodie 'des proceeded to state the glowed ea wide& he _ :hosted ' sand misstates a t h e Press, h e was tw s ;pells4, es formad his opinions. He theeilit that any taaa, it an g ee, to rail for t h e i r L an iod io r oonrersant with the achaleistratioa of justice, oast be 4 so week fee the pompom d i ;Al aware of the 'feminist-hie( that wield be dome, and Ms* tresaroloas situati o n is w hi c h a witn e s s wie ld b e for the sake of entirely ,if after pert of a conversation hag bees stared. Id to, from the aspersions digairy were to be dapped. He. tbeieliser , pre it his I d eas As e Minister of the* and solemn opiates, sad this ophtiest was greamied boomer of pressen'''. he hit k the breed priusipies of jetties, that when a pert ea r the „a er i es a mas s w a d of 0.104 eseienteties tree stood. thee rho whets 'Met eettveree- over the publication of its prep& fit ,_aliski li ii l eir g,„ es& b!hr preetvolet. As a Mgr. he the el ideas. Wash passed peembw, ••• •• mug owed to fejudie ie till pates; sad I • - IA the witnehs, who by coming to give e% trial, plaubs himself 'under his protecti on. — L ' Connie% by commencing a coeversciou, r ta self to all the consequ e n ces , an d he was ore 1 L"' an y body, at all co nversant w i t h the .141,4„,,trit711 of justice must h at e o f ten observed, d im ' I very viiffetent motive nay arise for * s ki ll question, from the answer which is and he thought it would be laying dews a va n ; dautp•rous rule, if when p a rt o f a conversed°, is he at s . all inquiry was at once to be s t oppe d . The Levit t Judge then conclu.led by observing, that he ros s is„ . The Loins U. axcimatow then rose, anti we tel „, that for a few moments„` - was inaudible ho me*. bar. He thought it proper to apprise their l a , r d s k * that whatever instructions th e y might give his ts communicate the Resolution oldie House, that li esa lotion would not be irrevocably binding upon tier L irdthips. 'For his own part. however, be tho l e ; edit a great misfortune to be obliged toddler N u L i, Learned Brethren, but that be 'acted upon the wester. eeientious motives. All the rest of the Learned Judgesthen peen op kg state the grounds on which they has: deemed goo f re . pettier opinions. it much better to act upon the opinion of the lam Judges than upon their own view of the ought *naively to be governed by the roles of Mask He was free to confesalhe bad so bag ca l med to lsin d o in that luench of the profession which led twdo g ob examioatisto of witnesses, that he was sot euu,d mil with either the present practice, at with tbilini p which that practice was regulated. Lord ERSKINI concurred in opinion with thew, and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, on the priority o f following the opinion of the Judges, and exprendin own decided judgment upon the point respecting sli c k he never l al a doubt. Lord RIDUIDALS begged to observe that it *as with considerable diffidence lie offered au opinion against that of the Le trued Judges, but he was so strongly impressed with the propriety of putting to the witness th e twain now in dispute, •hat he could not suffer the House to dis pose of its dissuasion without offering his view of thecae His Lordship observed, that the object of a cromennii natiowwas, to discredit a witness, and that of a re-exa mination, by filling up his testimony, was to restore his credit. Coles& then the whole of the fans which but been partially extracted by the cross -magnetise allowed to be detailed, a witness might most unjustly be exposed to a prosecution for perjury epee some obscure statement in his cross-examination. Ile weird never venture to apply the general danger to the re sen t case . It was evident to their Lordship., that this wit's,s m:sun lerstood several questions pat upon cross-es &Damnation ; and upon their being cleared up to him, he gave answers i nconsistent with those which he lasigiven on that cross-examination : this alone, inceatended, we sufficient to skew the danger be had allotted ty his Lordship concluded by observing, that tbey ewe bound to extract the whole truth, and sot lOW tit professional term . 4 Rules of Evidence," to prevail against so just a principle. The Lou Cisxciu.oa proceeded to put the oust don, whether he should call in the Counsel sad idso the Attornej -get g gal that the House wool/ out wit the question is dispute to be pat to Ai tritons a 11 , Bar. The question wu carried la the slim. I've Abut . a division. _ - Counsel were accordingly galled la, and *a lord Chaacellor iNforased Mr. Attorasy-Geasral IV awsit of their Lordship's deliberation. [ln consequence of the length of i.e by Its Judges were in retirement, to decide upon &ration proposed to them, • corresponding passe toot is the proceedings of the House, and our Report sham occupies less space than on preceding . days. Ow readers may, however, be assured, that it Is as aglow and correct as possible.] Advice. have hour received from Palermo to the 16th ult. Prom these we learn, that the rejeetlea d the Deputies who bad bee. seat from theses to Narks to negotiate for the independence of Sicily, had, is their return, become the signal of the most prompt and rigorous measures ea the part of the Proeisiemi Jima at Palermo. A Decree was immediately hued for enrolling in the military servke of the costal tbe name of every male inhabitant of Sicily capable if bearing arms, withoat exceptioa of rash; and traps were disperaed in all directions to attack thee. piss which still adhered to the Neapolitan Ooreramiete— Besides Messiest and Trapanti, it is now usdenmsi that Catania and Syracuse take that side. Trapaad was in a state of blockade ; from Catania, which h sa open town, little resistance was expected ; bet Ilyrs , case and Mesaisa being strongly fortified, &heated a severe costes. All commanicatiou between Pelerms sad Messina, and throagh that maim with the thie limit. was cut of. As article, dated Fleeeace, Aug. 14. laYsil""N Ri have just received the is:porta:lt sews that the lbw peror of Austria does sot ockaowledge seg el the shasges in Naples: coosequeotly 46,M1S ma torch 0,11 40.4110 remain at Pasersob-etibrillifilll of the Italian Princes; and 40,000 remake as ea mar of reserve in aunts:meets, candle/ to Lades Aar tria. Austria is to maintain, sad pay time trooph sad only demands the re vstablishascat of order, sod goevastees for the hien. the mete of the Beeptiw of Austria to the Coons of Italy. patesistial the r • indepemdesee, and peace of the ether litates Italy according to the bosh fixed at the Cimgveutel Vienna has been received here." 1 Oar readers will recolket to have.seee Wear Mgt last w It, a eon of • oertifscate of hoe Maya!' Counsel, dated the 00th of Aug..., It appeared to them proper to adrasee P e e a s t rl ll l 4 4 o S. Reiter £ll4OOO to be applied towards her WOO defence. This certificate had bees put forth, it :west by the Mit:Maria' jooreals, to make it be believeddial h Majesty was sulicieetly supplied with parasey. Ida answer to this, it was mused, s autheeky. M a Pgs of yesterday, that Mr. Brougham hod sever. hod Or e isiontakatlon with Lord Liverpool es the subject of t rls advance (eS:apt as hppesn by that eesti6l.o aid by whelp:weed in the Meow of Lied), sad er lit Lye the Tea Thousand Posse bawls( hees phM 0 11 tee 00th of Asgast, sot es* farthing of It has advanced to the roast time; and Me eves of the esetilittele had not be.. *scope hy the pshlieados O. in the rosary the revises etateeslet. sch a eareary as had bags eamenelligi he , day is the Metes elf finde r '1 r