The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-13 00:00:00

•eprk which be hail been concerned in making wt respect to lkhester Jail was not founded on a view the prison. but on a report which he, and those who were with him on that occasion, had found ready made to their bands. }le at the moment could not be expected 70 remember all the circumstances, so as to do more at tbe time than contradict in general terms the statement trade by the Iron. Member for Taunton. Ile was sorry • .that ell the Gentlemen who spoke on this subject when Woos brought op on Friday, were not present now. He would have deferred saying what he had to offer till . ttliry arrived, but if he were to do so, he feared be should rat find an opportunity of setting himself right with thb Hawse. In the year 1815, the city of London being I (1111, to build an extensive jail , sent fo ur members of their corporation to enquire into the regulations of other l prisons. He was one of them, and was accompanied by Sir John Perring, Mr. Alderman tloodheliere, Mr. Al derman. Birch, and Mr. Dance, the celebrated surveyor. They left Bristol in the morning, and arrived at the town of Hamster in good time. The report which had been made was done from notes which he had taken dowb in the presence of the jailer's wife. .The jailer himself leas then at Weymouth for his health ; be be lieved be was ill; but at any rate, he was not then at Ilchester. They, however, viewed the prison, and after inqniring into all its regulations, and into every thing connected with the object of their journey, they at length made an approach to ordering a good dinner, on, Which the Honourable Member for Taunton had dwelt so much, and which had afforded so much amusement' to the Gentlemen opposite, who were well disposed to enjoy any statement that represented him as forgetting the business on which lie had been sent. He had, however, found the bill of their dinner in the otlice of the town clerk with their other accounts. It was sa tisfactory at least to see such matters had been care folly registered. From inspecting the account. be round the following moms had been expendeil;—To four debtors there confined, 2/.; to the turnkey, 10s.; 1 1 to a poor woman who hail attended them, Is. 6d.; and then having to go to Exeter that night they took soine Ohl meat, the charges for which (for five persons and two servants) amounted to U. 4s. He had received a note on this subject from Sir John Perring, who was the only 51enther of the Deputation to whom he had an opportunity of applying, one Member of it (Mr. Alderman thinilbeliere) being dead, and another being in France. The House would now have the authority of Sir J. Perriug to oppose to that of the jailer or magistrate, from whom the lion. Member hail received his information which he had conceived to come front undoubted authority.—(The letter which he then read, confirmed the previous statement of the Worthy Alder man. Sir John Perring described the Deputation to bare inspected the jail at Ilchester, not merely the exterior, but every part of it. It spoke of the jailer's wife as having afforded them every informal' in her power (her husband being at IYeyinontli,) and after concluding their inquiries, they set off for Exeter.) The Hon. Gentleman then went on to declare the re port which had been made to be very different from that which had been described by the Hon. Member for Taunton. There was no mention made of a pump in the report, which in fact contained nothing which was not borne out by the memorandum which be had made in the prison. Mr. F. BUXTON was glad the Worthy Alderman had brought forward this subject, as be seemed to have totally misconceived what had fallen from him on a former night. It had surprised hint to find the report somewhat at variance with what lie knew to be the facts connected with the jail. Ile was glad to assure the Hon. Alderman that he had not bad the remotest intention of questioning his veracity. So far was he from doing this, that ye now yielded Iw ',licit credence to the astonishing statement that the Worthy Alderman (Ooodbehere,) Sir J. Perring, and Mr,' Alderman Birch, with those who attended, had all (Feed fur the sum of /. 4s. • • Mr. Alderman WOOL) begged to state in answer tO, the lion. Member, that he could produce the ac eoent: The SPEAKER reminded the Worthy Alderman, that unless he had a motion to make this conversation could not proceed. Mr. Alderman WOOD had only to ciy, that lie had the Bill in his pocket. Here the conversation ended. Mr. BUTTERWORTH presented a petition from t'.e Corilivainers of Dover, complaining of the intro ihntion of hoots and shoes of r reach manufacture, and praying for further protection.—Ordered to lie on the t..ble. ROMAN CATHOLIC CI.AIMS. Mr. lIVSK I SSON presented a petition from the Clergy of the Arrlidearonry of Chichester against any further eoncession to Roman Catholics. Knowing the respecta bility of maim of the petitioners, and feeling a respect for them all, he was P4)rry that he could not agree in the heaver of the petitioners. Fetitioners, did not, how ever, impugn the loyalty of the Romau Catholics, but stated that they feared any further concession s would endanger our hest estahlishtnents in Church and Seam Ile (Mr. H.) was eonviticed such fears were very visionary, and it was from such conviction that lie hail oxiforinly given the Roman Catholics his support. — 'I he kcitieu was then laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. BUTTERWORTH presented a petition from the 'lteittOes, Churchwardens, and Inhabitants of the parish • 0 St. Donstans in the West, on the same subject. The Ifni,. Member added, that lie entirely concurred in the wart of the petitioners, and entered at some length iLtu Isis reasons for so thinking.—Laid on the table. • Mr. J. WARRE expressed his regret at the views which the petitioners had taken of this great question. • •Instead of treating It on the broad basis of its own !Weis at xbtotresent moment, they had recourse to ex . Isiodeit doctrines. and obsolete opinions. —(Hear.)—lle aid not rise, however, to oppose the petition. Aiter.sosie words from Mr. BUTTERWORTH in . .x 44, iu which he. defended the language of the peti tion,. the petition was laid eu the table, and ordered to • be prliited. • - eItrIMPF.LL presented a petition from a parish, the name of•lsbich •we could not learn. against the' Thamealkbaorf Bill—Ordered to lie on the table. • • . .. MRS* nal FROM THE LORDS. A Message from the Lords requested that bloat Alaninamoiiii. Esq. ; 004 be permitted to attend their JayklaiiiiadCommittcie on Foreign Trade as a witness. Messengers were informed that the • House had complied with their Lordships request. FOREIGN TIMBER. gik J. .?„1311;A\ moved for returns of all fir and jialitt,tiipbca ;flirted. into Scotland ,from Norway, 101Pais ieair 10,9 to 1h20.--Ordered. ; IrTATIO3I COFFEE. *N . ALA' to ask the Bight Hos. 'the Chanceflor of the Exchequer, if it was his Woo cliwste~.: .enfdriat.ibe- petiwiiies against certain indivis -4;2finovtliinit. , Olio; was termed insitatiosi asitaltiattilt Ant ..the .Right lien. Genttewalw %, Under. that impression he t . . 5.. formed the parties of the fact, and hoped that by doing so he had not let them into an error. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not prepared to give the Gallant General any direct answer on the subject; and he did not think it con sistent for the Gallant General to have held out to the parties any expectation that the penalties would net be enforced. Sir R. WILSON said he was not conscious of sub jecting himself to the animadversion of the Right lion. Gentleman, in stating that no prosecutions would in ' futnre take place. Dr. LITSHINOTON presented a petition from cer• lain inhabitants of London, Westminster, and South nark, expressing their satisfaction that Orampound bad been disfranchised and that the representation had 'Urn transferred to Leeds; and praying that a more extensive suffrage might he allowed than that pro- I vided by a qualification of 201. a-year—Ordered to lie ; on the table. Sir R. FERGUSON presented a Petition from the Royal Burgh of Kincardine, complaining of the stag nation of commerce and the pressure of taxation, and denying that their sentiments had been expressed in a pretended Loyal Petition from the same place, signed by forty-five persons. He also presented a Petition from the adjoining Barony of Abercorn. The Peti tioners prayed for the removal of Ministers, a total change of system, and a Reform in Parliament. A MEMBER stated the Petition alluded to, had been stgned by 45 or SO highly respectable persons in that part of the country. Sir R. FERGUSON admitted that the names al luded to, were highly respectable, but not more to than the 1,100 names connected with these Petitions. SCOTCH BURGIN. Sir R. FERGUSON wished to withdraw his name from the Cponmittee, appointed to investigate the state of the Royal Scotch Burghs. The majority of the Committee pursued the object of the inquiry in a man ner so different from that which he thought ought to be preferred, that without any hostile feeling towards the majority or towards any individual, he wished to be excused from attendance. Mr. NIACHENZIE regretted that the Gallant Ge neral had come to this determination. He wished the Gallant General to remain a Member of the Committee and to assist its labours by his suggestions.—The motion was agreed tn. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. lIUME stated, that he had on the last night submitted certain Resolutions to the House; but the forms of the House prevented them, under the cir cumstances, from bring entered on the Journals, and he was anxious that his opinion on this subject should be put upon record. To prevent inconvenience, he would offer them now, without any further observation than to state, that they contained only matters of fact, and pledged the House to no immediate extent of re duction, but only to the general principles of economy. On their being read, those gentlemen would find that they only called on the House to approve of the mili- I tary establishment of 1792. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that it was not the proper time for moving the Resolutions. if forced upon the House at that moment, it would b e necess ary to meet his motion by the previous question. The Hon. Member had stated that he did not mean to pledge time House to any opinion, but the fact was, his resolution went to call upon the House to record its opinion against the Estimates fur time military ser vice of the present year before those estimates were taken into consideration.—(llear, bear.) —lie could nut agree to the propriety of calling on the House to recognize his principle before they had heard the ar guments which were to be offered in the Committee, and without knowing the reasons which could be as signed by his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston.) Mr. HOME explained. He contended that it would be contrary to all precedent to go into a Committee, without adopting such a principle as he proposed. His object was, that time Resolution should be considered as an instruction to time Consinittee, or that the mere passing. of it should Witten n ee their decisions in cow qnemice of it having received the deliberative sanction of the House. Lord PALMERSTON thous/lit nothing could be more anomalous than any discussion upon the num bers and establishments of our forces before going into a Committee. With regard to the resolution, it contained a variety of minis-statements of the facts which it embraced. The Noble Lord then went into a statement of the forces of 1792, and spewed the mistakes made in the drawing up of the resolution.' He did not mean that this affected the argumenta of the lion. Member, but it would convince the House that it was called upon to confirm that which was in consistent with troth. He bad heard that it was said by a .age of ancient times, that there were two things over which the immortal Gods themselves had no control,--past events and arithmetic. Now, the Honourable Member seemed, in time plenitude of his power, to assume control over both those things. —(A laugh.)—lle thought it might be said of a little industry as of a little learning, that it was a had thing ; and he would advise the Honourable Member either to have a little more or a little less. He understood that the Honourable Member was Chairman of a self-constituted Cumtuittee of Finance, which sat in another place, and discussed motions and resolutions like the present before they were sub mitted to the House. As the lionoum able Member seemed to understand a cheap way of doing office business, lie (Lord P.) really thought it would be ad vantageous to move for a return of the salaries of time Clerk, iu order to adopt, if possibly, his plans of economy —(Hear, and a laugh.)—As the resolution called upon the House to affirm that which was not correct, lie should move time previous question. Mr. HUME replied,and contended that his arithmetic was correct. Ile confessed that lie did, after drawing up the resolution, snbtatit it to the inspection of a few friends. • With regard to his clerks, he wished the Noble Lord would do his business ht so erommonlical a rate as he did.—(Hear, linear.)—He had no clerks to assist hint: he had no necessity for them; fur there were always plenty of volunteers in his valise, ready to yield hins as sistance if he reqnired it. He had submitted the pre sent resolution, because he thought it necessary that the House should be Pledged to sonfe absolute course of eco nomy before going into a Committee. . After- a few words from Mr. TREMATNIF., the House divided-4 , W the pertions question, test ; Against it 74 —Majority 21. . of Lord PALMERSTON, the:House If into the Committee of Supply. ILSTON then rose to move the Army _ Noble Lord began, by saying, that la the Items which be had to bring before the Commit tee it was not his Intention to tresspas on their indul gence at any length. His object was to give a general outline of the facts relating to the military ezpendi lure of the present year as contrasted with die last. The two principal features in the estimate of this year, were a reduction of our military establishment, and a diminution of expense. The greatest reduction would be found to be in consequence of the dismemberment of the Veteran Battalions. Those battalions were raised at a season of alarm and danger, and the Go vernment then pledged itself to lay them down when the publio mind should be again tranquilized. The Estimatea would sliew that the Government had been true to its promise ; and he hoped that the expecta tions of permanent tranquility upon which it acted in re doing, would not fail to be realized. The result of these regulations would be that there would be a diminution of men to the extent of 9,500, and of expense to the the amount of 150,000/. There would be a still greater apparent reduction, because the clothing, which cost 19,5001., would of course be tin. necessary. Upon the first head, the reductions would amount to 374,0001., 50,000/. of which, he was ready to acknowledge, had bees saved by having recourse to a recommendation made by the Hon. Member for Corte Castle, whose suggestions had on many occi- ' sions been attended to with benefit. This saving was effected by applying part of the pay of the ineffective men to the miscellaneous services. In the Staff there was a diminution of 7,0001., occasioned by the reduc tion of Major-General Officers on certain stations. — Amongst other items in which savings bad been ef fected, there was, in Hospital and Medical Expenses, 3,0001. ;in the Volunteer Corps, 19,0001.; and, upon the whole, a diminution of expense, amounting to 367,0001. The next head was the Commissariat and the Troops in India. The Noble Lord then men tioned the savings and increase upon the differeti• items in the Military College, in the Garrisons, in the Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, in the Widows' Pensions, and in the Local militia establishments. He worthd adopt the comparison which had been suggested by the lion. Metuber for Abingdon relative to the Esti mates of the Finance Committee of 1917. That Com mittee staled that the Army Services for the year, ex cluding the Ordnance, and inch.ling the Comtiti•sa riat, would amount to 8,500.000% And in this there was not any allowance for training the Militia. In their Eleventh Report. the Cotnmittee also &claret!, that this Estimate did not incinde the charges of the Staff. The Eleventh Report also stated that upon the return of the army from France, an increase of expen diture would arise to the amount of 300,00/. Taking into view the relative proportion of this latter sum, and the other items which he pointed out, there would be to add to the Estimate of the Committee for the actual service of the year 260,0001., making the whole amount to 8,760,000 f. Ile would now lay before the house Estimates for the present year. They were as follow : Ordinaries Z 6.043.0 08 Extraordinaries I. 1,020,000 Commissariat 801.300 Barracks.. Training Militia 90,000 Being less than the Estimate of the Finance Commit tee of 1.417, by 256,000/. Therefore the Hon. Mem ber would see that if the House had not agreed to his proposition the other night, it was becaute it placed that confidence in the Government, which had been fully justified by the result. In comparison to the dif ferent sums voted for the service of the last year, the savings were as follows: Upon the Ordinaries ... L 144018 lixtraordinaries 2011,000 -- Commissariat MOM Barracks 117.1009 Trainabit Militia... . 40.000 For Clothing Yeomaary rat,ooo Forming the Veteran Battalions 40,000 He was ready to admit that the last two items were not actual reductions, although they were in fact diminu tions of' expense. The whole of these savings would make a reduction in comparison with last year of 707,000/. Upon all the different establishments an una nimity of opinion could tint be expected to prevail. But he put it to the House, whether the redactions lie had stated did not prove that Government had the view of effecting every practicable reduction that could be effect ed in the expenditure of the country? He should then sit down, if lie did not wish to avail himself of the op portunity of remarking upon the speech made by an liononnible Member (Mr. Maberly) a few nights ago. The lion. Member began by referring to 1792 as a year which ought to he looked at as a standard for the regu lation of our military force. For such an example, lie 1 1 1.ord P.) should utterly reject that period altogether, as he considered it one of the worst that could possibly be followed. The Honourable Member had not showed, and he ought to shew, that those establishments which existed in 1792 were proper for lts2l, unless, indeed, the circumstances of the two periods were the same. hook at the state of the country at the present time ; he (lid not speak in a civil sense; look at time buildings and establishments of all descriptions which had been raised and formed; and which were necessary to he occupied to prevent them going into a state of dilapi dation. Look at the increase of public property which required to be guarded. Look at our vast colonial accessions. I.ct all these things be taken into calcu lation, and then it would he seen whether that which was proper for 1792 would also he efficient in 1821. He would now show the necessity for the increase of the present estimates over the establishments of 1792. The number of troops provided for by the Estimates of that year was -13,578. But the actual establishments never were reduced to the Estimates. There were 100 wen more in pay than the numbers contem plated. The actual amount compared to the present establishments, left an excess in the latter of 36,C00 Men. Of these 15,000 were required for the new co ' lonics, among which were Malts, the lonian Islands, the Cape of C I Hope, St. Helena, &c. These were some of the most important possessions of the country. They cost an immense sacrifice of men and money, and they were stAtions of the greatest political and cow men:: ce a or i cd o e n .n s o e should He a , 1 7ae n t di deceiving e a ni iintncghn. ther of rc ito t r n uo s so t ep a si n f c f e ho s er , t t i la were to say that the present force would be sufficient to repel any were:in )0. only tla sufficient ci a e t n t a t e k upon t o defen t these' he possessions. muponan sudden attempt to r . surprise heilyttih formedi(h, o : f the b sort h t eorfe r wreak as e 1114 eina)rutiolumat of f y a lle w fe a t r re . MI increase of troops to the amount of 2614 over the 'V .inmktl :in.:lcdmsenil! good d itarle of Scotia, Jamaica, the Bahamas, New South IV 1 I . aes s d our North American possessions. The t wo last ' s S o o f ut p l e s o l p ir l a e les wh h o a " d be: tir o: ti t t h e re ce pt a cle had extended greatly, in population and property, sisa l numbersgoy ern i n employed g; and t h i e s se l i c i 7 r i d e it deal o f a l 7 c 9 er 2 ;ain N c e las w account for the increase of six hundred and seventy two men which had taken phierhpon that-station. I t . one of the Canada. a large Increase bad bees camel by the frontiers having been extended nearer to 1 neighbouring country, and .by the peopling if those large tracts of country, which at that period consisted of deserts and wilds. 'nese brad been gradually cleared as popoulation and agriculture advanced, and the frontiers which had beau so extend. ed towards those of a neighbouring state, retptie t al a additional defence, and rendered the presence of larger forces necessary. This brought down the in crease to 19,615, of which,number,.B,sl 6 were applied to the service of Ireland ; so that- there would remain 10,899 to be accounted for. The Noble Lonl th en spewed the increased duty upon the different stations of Plymouth, Portsmouth, Chatham, Chester, B o il, Weetion, Jersey and thernsey, Dover, Teigameetla, Berwick, and other depots over that of 1792 • him g• ing the excess of troops down to .3,Pri- In the par 1792 the practice was not yet abolished, of mills* men for the whole service ; and when war broke lit, the Boyernment could send them iatoWl -11 t regiliegb, they thought proper, and thus send out parties el id ferent regiments upon foreign service. B u t now a very proper change had been effected. A man enlist ed in any tegiinent 1w niL•lit prefer, and it eras not in the power of the Crown to remove him hence. This practice led to one unavoidable rano-40race. A change of troops could ii-t he Ua '1• oa any foreign station, by sending on t w hol . re.Hneitts together. Now it st necessarily liap •! ii, that h' fore the use regiment could retch its destin.:tion, and the other Arrive at holt-. that n hci tore..s wire wanted to supply the place of t' at which 1!!s left the country. And even when the regiments returning, were arrived, it was Hut until they hail recruited that they could perform efficient duty. The number of troops en aboyed on our foreign stations, was 22.100 besides 'hose for India, amounting to 19,690, making in the whole 52,000 men. It was ascertained and .se e. d on that no regiment ought to remain abroad for a longer period titan 10 years ; so that it Wil• quite "tear that, in order to act upon that principle, a tenth ;tart of those forces, amounting to 5,200 men, must be elianuell every year. If they deducted 1,500 os se .ount of th ficieney thus created, then the 3,200 wonla h e further reduced to 1,700, which would be sloths of the present year over that of 1792. Ile could sot hut believe that this statement must satisfy Hon. Gett tlemen that we hail nat too great an army fur the se eessary purposes of the State. But then he knew they would contend that if we hail not too many troops, yet there was ground of complaint as to their organiza tion. They would say, that instead of having regi ments of 650 men, we ought to have them of 900 or 1000 ; that those who had power over the forming of regiments, should endeavour to fortis them upon the must economical plans. The army of 1792, was com posed of regiments upon the lowest es tablishments. He was aware that in this argument lie sliovW be charged with inconsistency. It, would be sail thst he deliver..d in a statement to the Finance Committee, calculating that regiments of -10 U men were more ex pensive than those of tsoo. lie was willing to allow also, that regiments containing 650 men. though more economical than those c ontaining 400, were not quite so much as those c onsisting of 900. But there were advantages which folly compensated for this apparent sacrifice. The army of 1792, composed of regiments of 400 each, was the most expensive upon this account of all others, bit it was also the most inefficient. It could not, epee the breaking out of the war, be called into the field • with advantage. When the war broke out, it s ass found that these small regiments could nut act toge ther, and that they were scattered about in hrotea masses which coult.l be employed with no elli.rt. kur regiments were the most economical, but in time of peace they were less efficient than the smaller MI. In the breaking out of war they would present sr; increase of forces witl t making new regiments; Pt where the regiments consisted of Minor 1000 men, is was ; . impossible that that could be ,lone. While in / the 400 regiments, if they were raised to 11100 at the commencement of war, there would still he so real a preponderance of recruits, that they wonld inlacthe young regiments. Therefore he had chooser) thefir. as a plan combining the else:Toes:3 desirable in pew• and the capability of raising au increased force with. out inconvenience in the event of war. They conht now with the present establishment, by sliding u re , Lieutenant and a company to i:0-11 regiment, pro' or e ... ... a reinforcement of 3 4 , 900 men , and cheaper than he raising regiments to that amoun t by :010, 0001 . l ig HOU. Member opposite would contend that one pa rt.s . I t least, of the army was inere.:s:4l, namely, the Li t :: woo''' Boards, and the Foot 4 ;tririls. But if he look, he would fi nd that acr e vas a great number o f the first description of fo..ei• i a com parison to 'le . army , cavalry of the arv , in the year 1792, th" there was at this period. Nit thi - h ran ch of thes ol i e: resalved itself into this question, whether there ra . : . . any advantage in having in the army an estahlirt talent, where there should be advanced rank ainlPY' In all armies, the persons who attended the reign, were rewarded by similar i •rivileges. 61° , 4 these troops had not by their va lo 1. n r abroad , s ` l . . their excellent conduct at hom e, deserved the .e a l o , !ages they enjoyed, he would leave to the 11ou. se ~. ileterinine.—(llear, hear ) 'lll-re was no inert's ,L.. forces stationary in ',onion, in rroportion s ince "' nor year 1792. At that titae t:or,. were 4,225 vuel.l-e_ the present, .1,919. B u t the ret;irus which ha lid two; laid before the House youlti t!!!!,le it to sec " .._ that the increased n.i:ither a guards mounte d ~i London, would account for this small exce"4„. f t:.e Honourable Member had said, that the pay beOr soldiers onglit to be rednee 1 in pr oportion sa to _ to reduction of corn. Hut it wits ' be first neces i ts. ascertain whether meat :In d(Aber articles of li ' es "' ,were also fallen to the saute e xtent. He d of no one wil ` l they were not ; at least, lie bail bear fart. With had, been practically convinved of the . . 0 s frequeetty .. regard to the pay of o ffi cers, it iva . lot ed In "I" adequate to meet the expenses incurr ed 1 (Bear, Eas e ) ing the duties of their sitnation.— itv for we lt If there was nut an over ruling IW O'S! . THE __.__.L7. Esm stAl' A N • - . ith 14 no oliection to the repeal of the fualth ii Geo. Oe thi ileotion ( ,;' lon th en eeedked itsell rof id., which went to sanction the penalties in ,nest • Lord pAummil sho tt..1... limit imnression he (Sir Robert Wilson) hi' • •• _ - EStiMatek ' The f . •,1_ 1 !'••• k .~ ~. 'r-. ".. • . . 1, 0 •S'*•:::. , 44 -. i :. • • • ... 1 .1 .. 1;1\