The Statesman. — London, England, 1820-06-03 00:00:00

oh y 1.4 rettencinnent.- , —(H^ar, bears. fions the Op :J.—ohm Henches.)-14entleiven might iry hear! hot •i: !love retrenehtrents tie not made, it we.uld ratite the alenaour of those tleatleniets ; but when they acre r. eerie, it only excited their ridicule.. On the Staff there was a trans:Con of 13,171/. la one elepa• tuicut of the Staff there but beet an incriesse of two tieneral tetiesers, vraiett increased the ravesroto-3,6241e. to he off against the tedattioN pa the whole. On tie,. Staff there had *beets a.m.e • reANiction : the t, . :::Der of invalids had been cuedderabl y I. esened, eraieh ditei:.seisleed ihe o r e a nary c u p eni. es by 1,1901. :AA the k ontingeot by thlei. On the lrisli Staff I..ert bad then a ditterehee between the estinentes of the la.t and the patent year of '4;2831. iuntiugencies Since the estiesures were formed, itttnrrert it wee fuuud nece*Aary to ince...wee the charge on th's e. , ..t.lWeneetit. In the eseimates for the Foreign Staff been a redo •ti n of 1,1911/.---(Here the NA!e Lord became so in ii lona as to be illiged to I ts . .e. his seat. He sheet!y after left the Muse.) ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.--Mr. WAND said, th-tt in consequence of the indkposition of the Noble be *wild tale the opportunity of moving the ordnance Estimate,. He should titst assure tie House, • th.tt, in :hr Application of the altrady votrtl by Iluu.e (,r this department, the strictest economy Ltd been efter,:iNed. No doubt a great difference of o c iniun esisteil St. 4 to whet was necessary, awl what I% 34 ow. nee..esqirs. Ile slioniti first state iu the llo.ise ttiAt there wits an increase of 133.81 1 11'. over the e‘ti mattes of last year. He shouill ilk lily the subject into three distinit classes. '1 lie tirat e obi-aced all dried., of expentlitu.e produced in pursitin‘v of regulations iestereel ion, by that House, and in pursti ince of law. 't lie second eadiraeed matters merely of arrangement, not of ail The third coien!ehended artieles addi.ion t the expences of the department, hut which lie trusted, he could show to the House to have been fieeessar y . Under the first h e ad was ioeludeil the i..euts of the ordnance fo • military corps, which were it in the power of the House to control. These to ;.,ether anion ited to 10,0' o'., t.. which was to i.e add r i sum of 3,000 f. given in ;:ratnities to those who r. A, in the civil department, cootineted theinselv,:s in a manner to deserve these acknowlalgeur,mts of their r::-tits. Bat the great fea tire of increase was the mi -1 :Canal hill par and sitperannuations, which amounted to 41,0001.; bnt of this a sum of I0,i:00/. would go to reray charges of broken periods in former years. The addition, therefore, was tl.e difference between t:.:1 sum and 11,001 E. Alto .cether, the amount of the esimate for these two heads was 55,0' Of., which *a.l t. t.f of tl.e azgreaate ex.-ess. The seeiiiitl head of ex2etrli!nre embraced items rath , r of arrangement of formal addition to the estimates, soil were in s.ede.l under the head of civil charge', and charges to. c ,ntingen.des. At first it was oh;erted, that no thing was m. 0., difficult than to form a 'lotion of the ser.tingent expenses. It was, however, found not so difficult as at first imagined. 'I he Noble Duke at the head of the derai fluent, desirous of siteplifying the a.,..:ount, thought that it would he better to move for a sum a! once for cuatingeneies, instead of supplying t! em oat of the suns voted for unprovided expenses. and particn'arly as the accounts of contingencies did hut come in for one. tiro, or sometimes three years to other. lUnd.r this head was incindel a variety of Ai ticle4, such as bread, money, coals, and candles, ate., which ant:muted to shunt 25,0001. A sum of G or 7,1100/. was to be reiptired for the Trigon bole:ri co! snney. He said, that the object of this survey tad list yet he -n obtained, hut it was necessary to con tinue the expenditure. The increase, therefore, by the moon' of these two heads, came to 32,0110/. Un d:q. the great head of the debt of this department was a sum C 440.000/. Nominally the amount was 40,000/., bat really it woul I be only 23,0901. for the service of this part of the establishment. He should explain the realms f the difference. The last vote under this head of ex rime obtained, unwanted only to 20,0001., whereas the actual expen.lture was 35,000 f.; so that the amount of the arrear of the last year being aided to the amount of the estimates for this year, caostituted the sum of 40,0:111/., which was required n 'der the besot of expenditure on account of the debt. The next and last class conipreheoded those articles it beet constituted the addition to the ex penditure. 'I h •se amonnte Ito 7 or t1,000f., which was to be ex, ended for the maintenance of several new ilepots, in different parts of the country, for stores. 'i here were also several sums expended for the moving of stores, amounting altogether to I I,ooof. Against this excess was to be set u.t a saving in various parts of the expenditure, which had been carried even to personal in onvenienee. The saving consisted of the suppression of 19 establishments in the army, averaging each about 800 f. a-year. There were eight establish ments In the West Indies completely suppressed ; eleven others In this ronntry were also broken up, each of which cost about 3 or 4001. a-year. The saving from these suppressions emounted, for the present year, to 5,0001. in the shape of expenses upon ordinary charges, and upon extraordinary charges the saving amounted to 11 or 12,01.10/. '1 he aggregate of all these savings being deducted from the increase, left an excess, as he had before stated, of 133,000 f. Having stated thus tar, be did not know that it would be necessary for him to detain the Committee any further. If he had omit ted any thing which might appear to require observa tion, he would be very happy to give all the explana tion in his power. He then moved, that a sum nut exceeding 293,1194!. es. ed. he granted to his Majesty, to defray the expens -a of the Ordnance Department fur Ureat Britain and Ireland. Mr. Hine said, that he slionld not follow Cie Hon. tientleman thr.ingh the items of the estimates, to show where there had hem an increase, and where a reduc tion, but be should merely Ismk to Litr total amount of the estimates, mini compare it with t'.c total expendi tu eof farmer years. In 1819, there was no decrease in the Ordnance Department ; on the contrary, the txpemliture was increasing on every article. In that yeir the total amount of the culinary expenses of the department was 527,319 F. ht 1820, it increased to 548,000/. The extraordinary expenses of the former year amounted to 220,924/. ; in 1920 they Increased to 1100,389'., making a 4i!ferenco between thr two )esrs of •0,080/. '1 be expense tur Ireland, in 1819, was 101,0001.; i■ 1940, 111,9441. The aegrepte repeal* of both coantries, under the head of Ordnance Military Scoria. is 1919, was 819,000/. In 19i0, ME S 7 ATE.SNIV 91i•,6M11/. 111:der the head of Half-pay Allowance., the amonnt or expenditure, in l'llo. W . . 1% Yl3,tiSul • in !Stu. 323.5 6 14/. The expenses amosiwed, in I e 19, to 3e.9e41 ; in 41.1,5311/. the head I.f Expenses of Ilaskrtioni the expense 1.. r 1/.119 amounted to 111,1410/.; in 1%20, to 5,11410/. The niegregate of the expenses of the two List hex '5 amounted, in 1,119, to 31'2,674/. ; in ItitO, to 37 4 ,1; 31. Thus the net .xpenditure of the Ilyd nanr.• Department amounted, iu 11.411, to 1,319, 1 ,4541.; its Is-19. to 1,191,907!., showing an increase fur the former by the sum of 1 . 27 949/. To these item■ he hal nut al led the arr.•-ars of last ♦ear aid those of the year before. He t..ok the neat expen.littiri• tOf the twa years fur the purpose of showing the u.I thin whirls it was undergoing., while the:e iris er,ry reason to expect a large decrease. Ile hegirell to re mark. th it, by the stir of stores, this department realized in 1,419, 112,11011/., sod in I s2ll, 3113,000/.; sot that, hr taking credit fur these suns, the expendi ture of the department was apparently lessened. lie should next proceed to compare the expenditure of this department, as had been tiUtle 111 another place n•ith reward to the imports and exports. Ht should show the amount of this tlepartineut at two distant pe riods of peace. In 1;91, the ortlinary ispenditore amounted to Zl9 I .E 1 The extromNliitart to - - - - 136.0/10 ti..-eretar,..• (1 pertinent ut the Orgiastic,- - 4 T - - /119,19!4 This was the :thole amount of the expe:onure for the year preceding the war. 'I he average expenditure fur each of the six years preceding 1791, was 3111,1110 1 . What wa: the Nectar' of the lint six years of peace It amoitsdeol to near 91'11.1t110/., and he would put it to the House, did this amount of expenditure jo,t,fy the notion that the heads of the department entertained any disposition to economy. It :could unfair nut to state that a great cause of the increase was to he at tributed to the a of half-pay, It trotild be impossible for any one not a ontweted w ith the depart ment to eritir:se accurately the items of the expense ; it depended eltirelr on the Gentlemen engaged in the tieprtment to determine the necessity of each branch of the expenditure. The lion. Member next adverted to charges in the itstimates for repairs done to the garrison at Gibraltar. lie contended that this charge belonged nut to this department, hut should hare been defrayed out of the money remitted to this country from that station, and applied, illegally as he thought, to the privy purse of the King. 1k saw another item of expenses fur the lonian Islands, which, he main tained, should not Iw charred to this country at all, a. lie would slorw more at large in a few days. By the Treaty of Paris, the King of lireat Britain was de clared the protector of thr loni.uu Islands, ttptitt the condition that the charge of mai:alining 3,0(N) troops should be defrayed by the native inhabitants. Now, as the islands received a Charter, and as it was express ly staled in the 12th chapter of this Charter that this 1 , country should not he at the expense of maintaining these troop., he was at a loss to know why the sup port of 3,111/0 troops in that country should he charged upon this country. The Bon. Member then proceeded to animadvert upon ebutiutting i as manufacture of 'rah- powder, end ttNn granting penshmb to the dill oG- cern retired. Ile conelnded by recommending the ex treke of the 10TifteSt Mr. WARD then rose for the pnrpose of replying to the statements of the lion. Member. That Ma. 3ilent iwr took no native whatever of the suppressed offices, and presumed upon them in his statements as if they really were still kept np. Ile (Mr. Ward) had cer tainly stated that there was this year au excess of 13:1,1100/. ; but the Hon. Member, because there was such nn excess, took it far granted that no regard whatever had been paid to economy. He should. how et-et, prove that the excess h4l been created on art'. cies of imperious necessity. Nor was the Hoo. Mem ber less mistaken in asserting that there was this year an excess upon the Extraorainaries of 110,000% as com pared with last year. Mr. Ilestr.—:" I stated the amount to be 60,000/. Mr. WAPP had certainly misunderstood the lion. Member, as he thonglit he had said nii,i,oo/., which, with all the acumen of the Hon. Member, was not correct. The difference of the 201. between the estimate of this year atoll the last, in the amount of the Extraordinaries, hail been produced by credit taken fur old atoms. It was altogether unfair to compare the present state of th • country with that of 1792, the circumstances thing. quite different. The lion. Metulter (Mr. flume) staled the excess in expenditure of the Ordnance De partment according to the average be had made of six years of peace before the year 1794 and six years since the late peace, at 8011,001.1/., but he had, how ever, the candour to allow half that sum, 400,000/., for the lialf-pay. The Honourable !October then rea I over some details of the expenditure in the Ordnance Department f r the year 1788, exclud ing every article that was, what he termed, of dead service, or tint of actual necessity, and the result was, that the amount then was (U 3,0001., which, taken from 1,380,0001., the p:seeent trillbtrift world be 733,0001., while a further deductio, being made front this amount of the sums he had seer=, the result would be an excess at this time of 376,0001., which, considering the vast accessions it had gained, and the inerest.ed edi.lency of the depart.oeut, might be consi dered as very trifling. The lion. Menther then ad verted to the Naval Establishment, which had been al most doubled sinee 17t48, yet the difference in the Ordnance expenditure was only -16,0004, as compared with that period. The expenses connected with the 'rower were then 14,0011/., at present they were 33,0110/. the expense of supporting the Academy then amounted to 60,000/., now they were 150,0004 From these calculations, he thought that the House would rather be disposed to give credit to the Admi nistration for economy, than to censure them fur ne glecting it. lie did not feel himself called upon to reply to the arguments adduced by the Ron. Member, respecting the revenues of Gibraltar, not conceiving this to be the proper time for entering upon that sub ieet. Yet, front all he could learn, there had been no surplus revenues residing trout Gibraltar since the yea' le lb. '1 he saute mi that be raid with regard to the lonian islands, anal it was therefore clear that we must defray the expense attendant upon these poises si ins. Before the late war we were obliged to go to a foreign market for most of the articles included in the Ordnance Depastinent, and the coasorience was, that we Lad often 'went rut to a very great expense, and Isere 'applied with materials of a very inferior quality. Snell was tli.• case in 1794, when the gunpowder was so had that it uas found necessary to form an establish ment for wicking it at home, amid import no wore from f weign eountrirs. A manufactory fur gunpowder was therefore erected, and the active part which Lord Chatham and time Master of the Mint took upon that occa , entitled thee' to the thanks of the country. It was necessary to !seep up the expense of that esta blishment, the formic% of which cost, in the first in- stance, 100.000/. The charge to the count. y fur sup porting it was about 1,000/. a-year. LEEWARD ISLAND DUTIES.—Mr. CHEtst contended, that this was the most suitable occasion for taking the objection made by his Hon. Friend (Mr. limier) respecting the snots paid by this country for' Supporting liihraltar and the lonian Flan Is. It ap peared to him, as indeed it must appear to ev..ry man not interested in the abuse, that the fund of the -le per Cents., the produre of certain duties at Barbadoes, and time Leeward Islatiths, was not applied as the Act re quirt', to the purpose of keeping in repair the forti6ea tions of those Islands. But to what purpose had these fun,ls been applie.l ? Who gut the towiey : and what were the services performed These were questions which the country had a right to ask, and he should give an answer to them. Mr. Charles Long got every year 1.51N1f. of it.—(Here the lion. Member vm.s in formed that it w..s not Mr. Charl.s Long, but Sir Charles Long.)--Well, it did not matter much as to ars name or title in the present instance. S:r lb tries Long, it appeared. received 1,500/. out of this fund, which was intended for a distinct purpose. Sir Hume Popham gut 5001. a year.—(l here was I.ere an impu tat' of dissent from an liot ((((( rable Member on the other side.) —plc should make no assertion which he rould not support, and it appeared that Sir Home Popham, and many others beside, were pensioners upon this fund. Mr. liuskisson, Mr. Fulke Oreville, and Lady Mansfield, were also among those who gut a share of it.—(Hear, hear, hear, and cheers, from the Opposition Itench-s.)--Ile hoped the fund in ques tion won'd be allowed to go to the nor which the Act contemplated, and that the money, which ought to be applied to repairing the forts of Barhadoes, would not be pocketed any loorr by private individuals.---(The lion. Member now read an extract from the Colonial Act of 1663, establishing the fund, and particulariz ing its object as specified.)—Before the reign of Qnsoto Anne, the fdrid had been applied contrary to the Act ; but at that period, on a representation being made to her Majesty, she ordered it to he restored , u its origi nal object, the Secretary of St ate having received di rections to that effect, as well as timat an animal report of its application should be laid before the House. Who, at that time, raamld possibly have supposed that it would afterwards become inrorporated with the Civil List, and that Sir Long would receive 1,500/. a year oat of it. This, lit insisted, was a most seasonable time to bring the question under the consideration of the Home ; and he should take an early occasion to submit a distinct tion with respect to it, being auxt ous that the rule established in the reign of Queen Anne should he strictly followed. It was a monstrdne propivaition to call for the public money in a Committee of Supply. while a fund, which appertained to the pub lic., was court nest to time private advantage of indivi duals. What! was a demand to he made upon the public for money to repair forts at a time when the sums designed specificalty for the purpose were divert ed from it into other channels'? A measure of this tia are was not to be tolerated, and certainly would not long be endured. When, in Iml2, he took occa sion to call the attention of time House to the two over grown Tellerships of the Exchequer, he was almost Looted by dim se who were averse to the proposition he submitted. 1 hey thought it to be nothing short of a direct attack upon property, and inveighed against it ' in the strongest terms. But what was the result ? Why it was this, that the two Noblemen who 611 ed the offices at the time came forward afterwards, and ap peared to take it as a favour that they might be no longer allowed to enjoy them. lie could nut but sup pose that they slid this from the public indignation having been raised in consequence of the exposition which he had male on the subject. Reverting to the 44 per Cents. it gave him very great pleasive to find that Lady Or. male had withdrawn her claim upon it, an.t he hoped that others who were now a burden noon it, would follow her example. He should again say that it was his decided putt ntion to take the sense of the House upon the application of this fund. The Hon. tientleusan concluded with adverting to some irregularities of classification under the head of Retired Allowances, observing that, according to the Act, pen- ' sioners under that head ought to be specified in sepa rate estimates. Mr. Waau male sonic observations in reply, con tending that this was not the proper time for inquiry into the application I the lands alluded to, respecting which there existed considerable difference of opinion. The 11 . 11A`tC6LLOR of the EXCRaQVI R depryasted db. observations made by the Hon. Member (Mr. (*revery) respecting • Nobleman who had resigned an office se cured to him by every obligation or justice and of right. He did nut envy the Hon. Member his triumph over the feelings of inch a mamas the Mirgois of Cam den—a man who would go down to the admiration and gratitude of posterity. The Hight Hon. fientleman then adverted briefly to the subject of the 4i per Cents. contending, they were, from established usage, dis posable at the will of the Crown. Mr. Wan explained. Mr. Ilex NET said, that it was not worth considering whit were the motives which rinsed the immense sum of 10,0001. a-year, aceruing from each of the Teller ships of the Excnequer, to be given up; but it was quite certain that the two Noblemen who held the loin had bad no thought of relinquishing a single shilling till the year after the motion was introduced upon the question. There was then an universal pen tium' of disgust excited, and it was right thst they had been made to disgorge the contents of theimblic puree.- —(Cheers.) Lord CASTLIIEAGII commented with much anima tion on the line pursued by the two Hoe. Mem op posite (Mr. Creevy and Mr. Huwr) upon this t. they sought to embitter the cup which that X enjoyed, from the eonscioseness of having ions t which entitled him to the deep and lasting of his country. Lord Mittov )aid a trihute to the disiat vtt. patriotism of t h e late Lord Camden, and said descendant, the prownt Nohlenia”, was entitlek: respect and veneration of the empire. Mr. Timm sr NP: said a few words upon our of items, not audible in the gallery : to which Mr. WARD replied, in a tune of voice equally :otr After a frit. words from Mr. LICANAIr, Smcrit, and Mr. liters, the Resolution was arr et i f , The following stuns were then proposed, and TON without farther discussion 50.H04/.. 5.34 W.. 10.000 f. for expesees coder dilirre lieu!' of the Ordnance Land service. I MOW/. for the carenaelof Ordnance Mike it !retail Art. 9381. fur expeoaes of the Ordnance (lice ut tir qt Britain. saporanuationa, &e. te?.ooof. to defray allowancea. 2.11011/.. under different other head, of allowtou., nod .nprrannuallons; 11.71/41. for the widows o r f l ullieera. and 4381. to discbarre aliusaaces to oil , Ireland. Lord Passionals-n:4 having returned to the Ro m , resumed the statement Whirl' seas interrupted by his is: disposition. Ile enumerated, in a ripisl masiner, veral items of reduction and increase, which 1 1 . 1 .1 &a m place, snare several 'wads of the army estinsatts Is the office of the Commander-in-Chief a reties lien of 5%0/. a year o..csirresi by the Thing:. of the .11ilit,ty Secretary, the 116 last held that situation having hail emoluments to that amount berissiJ 2.0001. a year, which was the salary of the present Secretary. The House would remember, that several .uses • a/Tomtits rmuained to be settled, an I Oka: officers were appointed to arrange those spa - mints Since then arrears to a very large ailment were paid in. In I'sl I, 216 accounts were settled, and only 2 remained, which were not disposed of. Is 1812, 218 accounts were settled, and 7 resuainee. la 1813, 225 accounts were settles', and tis els e re. mained. In 18 11, 235 accounts were settled, and eleven remained. In 1815, '207 accounts were settled, and seven remained. In 1816, 185 accounts were set tled, and six remained. In 1817, 113 accounts were settled, and twenty-one remained. Upon the whole. 1.399 accounts were settled, and silty-six retasiaesi, um which questions were still depending, owing to &sat and easnalties. As far as it was possible for the ob. cers to settle the accounts, they have been settled, and of the arrears 7,1100/. had been paid into the Ban;,, and 61,0001. had been got in from several aerenatams, either by deductions from their salaries, or by sass paid. The whole amount of the arrears got in was snore than sufficient to pay the expenses of the War. tacit in the years mentioned. The Noble Lori hastened through a I items so rapidly, that it was impossible to follow hint. Ile stated, that an iss• crease of 50,0001. took place in the British Volun teer service, is cousequem e of the establishment of new corps. The present smatilwr was 25 thousliad cavalry in Great Britain In the Irish Volunteer ser vice there was a reduction in consequence of the ode which prevailed there, that if the corps were not sidled oat to exercise a certain number of days, it ;rased ta cult. In the recruiting establishment, there was a small increase. In the Military College these was a decrease of 3,100/. in consequence of redactions in the Ineuitir department. The four Professors were trees , frrred to the eetahlishillebt at Farnham with which la futnre they were to be consoliaated, as well as 1541- I errs of the Peat/ The number of gentlemen Cadets Iwas also reduced from 320 to 290, and pa the whale such reductions had taken place as would being Sown the ex pense of that establishment to about 15,41W1/.* year, as expense as little as it could possibly be, if mb a nub. lishmeat were to exist at all. 1 n the Half-payaadMilitary Allowance Department there was an increase of 4 1 6,6111.. l on account of theadditional nmnber of persons plural es the half-pay and allowance list by the redaction is the army which had taken place last year. la the Romig% half-pay there was a reduction of -1,000/. by esessaltik In the la-pension List there was an increase of 1,6001.; in the Out-pension List there was a din:dustier of 85,0001., iu consequens e of the member of mitilea shiners called into service in the Veteran Battalion. Twenty thousand pounds remained in the hands of the agents, which was placed to the credit of the sett for the year Ile stated, that reduction had also takes place isa the Royal Military Asylum, and in the WI. down' Pension List. Returning to the subject or ost pensioners, he thought it might be satisfactory for the House to know snore particulars connected with their return to service. The total number of out-pessimists who canse in to be examined, was 15,026. Of these 11,253 were ticens.-d to be fit for service at the IRO exasisinatiou; 1,862 had sent excnses Nat itrt of wounds anti other disabilities, which were colabllM sufficient. Upon a second examinatioa, the Mir of pensioners fit for service was reduced to esnitslii he mentioned these circumstances, because he all ' aware that an uninst impression existed with rope I to these men. They CAM,. forward with the Icheerfulness, and many of them expressed their gran tude for being restored to a situation of active orris. The a ti•siet expense of the battalions formed on that occasion was 360,000/.. which was the larreassil charge. But front this should be deducted the NOW ' saved in pensions, 33,0001. saved la the pay of al' tired officers, who were placed on active wise le the Veteran Battalions, and 12,0001. saved is . do half-pay list on the same account. These smalls ausountiag to 132,91:0/.. should he deducted fa* the 360,000/., and it would thus appear that she NJ increased exi trifit was no more than 228,0001. Aid from this total a furthe• reduction was to be uric clothing, which had been already in the stores, wets , made available on the occasion, by which there wO a saving so as to reduce the total to 214.000 1 - * 44 ) not now mean to go into any argument to prove is s expediency of the determination of his Majesty 's Ml' sisters to raise these battalions. The motives of ths measure were notorious, and were justified by the events which hail taken place since the 16th of gist last—(Near, hear:)—lf those events did sot se tisfy. Gentlemen as to the propriety of that mato% nu eloquence which Ise or any other Member 0 1 . 1 4 lase would convi.sce them. The Noble Lord with propossin 4 a rote s.f 3,425,3601. les. 3d. let hY ilajeoty's Land Forces, consisting of 01.224 Ate_ and non-eosuusissioned officers, reclusive of the lido service. Lord NUGIVIT objected generally to the critis a me t ' of such an nonsense milli:I establishes's , in ita . peace and distress. Esery addition to the atmedilg a r czr increased she p.cieur.• on tho tstslip't da" r e , da I ti. 1.41 freesia dias•oates.t, list ad t saaville 01 ‘ . \ -II • in gm 0 el