The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-04-22 00:00:00

plies, it cannot be for defence, hut for offence. and in a cause the moat desperate sod hopeless. To the Nin s id er 4 who could make this country . a party to rels a Treaty, even after a vole for strengthening use hands of Government—after what I hear of their conduct, I can no longer, consistent with my duty, entrust the supplies. [lleac hcar!j The Noble Lord has talked of the facility which he has given us. What facility has he given us ? The allowing us to debate on a Treaty which he says is imperfect ly before us. Will the Noble Lord tell us the na ture of the Treaty ? lie has told us already that the one we have seen is substantially inaccurate; and thus we shall go to a discussion, trusting to be formed, in the course of the debate, what is the ditleret:ce between the Treaty which we have seen, and the real one. And this is what he calls afford us facility ! He does me the additional favour to tell me how I ought to conduct myself as a Mem ber of Parliament. The public are better judges of my conduct than I am ; but sure I am, whatever their ispi:.ion may be, I will not go to the Noble Lord for advice. Upon these grounds, and con vinced as I ens, that the line of conduct which I am pursuing is one that is constitutional and proper, end the only one which can be followed wills interest Or to the country. I shall certainly persist in it, though she one which the Noble Lord has pointed out would no doubt he more . advantageous to himself; and %hen the Noble Lord pointed out the line of conduct which be conceived proper for me, I belirve he rather expressed Isis own opinion (hats the course which the country would expect or wish me to follow. Lord CASTLEREAGH.— Whenever the Hon. Gentleman thinks be has sufficient grounds for insti tuting a mniion for censure of me, I believe this is a duty which he will not fail to discharge ; and so long as I see tio notice to twat purpose entered on the honk, I shall feel satisfied that there is no ground in the Honourable Nlember's mind to war rant him in such a course.--Will the House listen to the Honourable Gentleman's proposal for withholding the supplies and weakening, the hand's of Government, on grounds which the lion. Member will not litiog forward on their own merits ? Sir JOHN NEWPORT.— I had a right when I dissented from my Honourable Friend (Mr. Whit bread) on a late occasion, to consider that there was still an, alternative left—that war was not then de termined on—and I now find out that I am duped by the Noble Lord—(Neer o—and that to the Noble Le , rd I ought not to hare given credence, for the question •chirp he told me was pending, was actually determined. The Noble Lord tells us now that the Treaty, with some substantial inaccuracies, is cor rect. lie gives us, in his usual way, an answer, and a qualified auswer, so as to put it out of our power ewer to fix any precise opinion on him. But that night the Noble Lord told us expressly that there was ab decision, and that when the decision was already taken. He now said that we ought not to refuse the supplies which were given for au alter. native, but which alternative did not exist. I can not very well conceive what the Noble Lord means by using the words not shrinking from responsibility, because he is certainly shrinking from responsibility, Jr< he does not give in this document. When will the Nettie Lord give it to es ? When it will be tbo late for us to save the country from destruction— from a renewal of a war which has sunk our finances to tbo 'state in which they now are, which has ground to the dust every class of the community. — Then the Noble Lord will give it when it is too late. As to the boasted responsibility of the Noble Lord at such a period, it would be nothing worth. What compensation would it be then to the country, even if we were to follow the Noble Lord to the block ? Before war is determined on the House ought to have an opportunity of interpoiing their advice.— The coarse of my Honourable Friend is regular and tonstioutional. When Parliament has not sufficient documents to enable it to form a judgment, it is the only legal method of preventing an abuse of power. When one sees Ministers treating in a double sense, with the public—when we see ourselves out the point alf a renewal of the calamities which were brought on us by the war of 179 J, and involved again by the very same acts which were then practised ; a war which has reduced every mall's income to the third of its value, mid then are told of the responsibility of Ministers, it is impossible to preverve our tem pers. Sir, I scorn such a responpihility. [their !] My Ilout. Friend, whom the Noble Lord has thought fit to advise, has sat iti this House infinitely longer than the Noble Lord himself, and lie has done the duty of the country, unpaid, unsalaried, and unsti pended, and the love and gratitude of his country will follow him. Lord CASTI,!':REAGII.—As to the eulogy pro. noutieNl by the Right Honourable Baronet on his friend, it is one in which I am by no means die. posed to concur. The Right Honourable Baronet has proceeded in a manner which is certainly calcu lated to be paint.' to the feelings of the person to whom he is opposed. I conceive that it is not in consistent to strengthen the hands of the Crown, and at the same time give it good advice. If there is an impression on the mind of any Honourable Member, that a certain course is in the contemplation of his Majesty's Ministers, it is open to him to move the House to give advice to the Crown on the subject; and, therefore, to obstruct the supplies rather than offer advice to the Crown, is not in any sense ne. cescary. With respect to the line of conduct which his Majesty's ►Ministers have pursued, I shiny pe remptorily that there has been any delusion what ever.—[Lasses from the Oppositiots.l—labould have trespassed in the line of duty which I ought to have pursued had I thrown myself then on the House, and said that war was either taken or net taken. gave no opinion to the House on the probability of either peace or war. [ merely stated that we were placed in such a case of exigency as 'Night to induce us to strengthen the hands of Government for either war or peace, and respecting which Ministers would afterwards come to Parliament. The Right Ron. Baronet says that there was then no alternative.— What the probability of war was, I left to the House coNeet. I mid that the principle on which his Majesty's Ministers placed the/general system of war or peace, week' be 'minty iduenced by the general feeling of the Powers with whom we act—road how. ever highly the Bight Rom. Barone ;lief feel himself wairanted in isbuciadine Iree.thedecuteent there is -. THE STATESMAN. no Omelet' we ought e f 6 fo ld to conclude that an for the wholecoursee td C.'a) reaming was * instrument adopted under one course of circom- intended to ihor, that 4:the proper time he should stances, is to he conclusive under circumstances of a not think it incontinent with his duty to lay the sub different tlese l iptiou. ' stance of a Treaty upon the table. All he would Mr. WHITBREAD.—I with to say one word say at present was, that he should be prepared on more. A single ray of light has broken in upon us Monday to give the Honourable Gentleman a distinct f: oni the seeech of the Noble Lord. The Noble answer. Lord has said, that when he sees no notice on the Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that on Monday be book he shall always conclude that I have no grounds should make the motion without entering into largo. for censure. may have sufficient grounds for cen- meet, in order to ascertain whether the Noble Lord's sine, but I have also - sufficient experience of Par. sense of duty would allow him to produce what was Bement to know what the influence of the Crown is. required, in order that the House should not be lie knows what the country gives to the Crown, and plunged into- a discussion that might be disadvan. the country what he has given to the Crown. tageons to the country. He should make the motion Mr. METHUEN believed the Noble Lord pos. before the Committee of Supply. sessed the confidence of the country, which remained Mr. PONSONBY alluded to the case of Sweden, yet unshaken. He had his entire confi-lence. where the Noble Lord had agreed to produce the sub- Sir JAMES MACKINTOSIL—I cannot follow stance of unratified' treaties. 'He wished to know the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last, in be- distinctly, whether, on Monday, the Noble Lord stowing my approbation alike under any circum.. would consent to produce thesubstance of the Treaty ? stances, without any exception, and without any He protested against being compelled to discuss the guard. [hear, heart. ] Here I beg to be understood merits of this Treaty or Convention without precise as differing from him. I agree in tl:e position that information upon its nature. all hearts and hands should be united on an occasion I Lord CASTLEREAGH congratulated the House like the present ; but then our hearts. and bands , on the pacific tone that had been recently assumed by ought to be guided by reason and conscience. But, the other side of the House, and that opinions appa perhaps, it is not necessary to use so many words on , rent!) , so hostile had been reconciled in a manner so this subject. The Noble Lord himself has not ad. I satisfactory.—[l tar ! and laughter.]-11e had never 'fenced what is as much as treason to the Constitu. doubted that it was consistent with the practice of tion. The charge against the Noble Lord is, that the House to present the substance of Treaties ; it I the mode pr o posed by him has a tendency to destroy might be extremely detrimental were it otherwise.— all responsibility. What would be the consequence? All he would say at present was, that on Monday he How could any Member bring forward a motion on would give all answer ; and he perfectly concurred in the subject ? He would move an Address to lay a the impropriety of premature discussion. What he Copy of the Convention before the House. Now had argued-in the first instance was, that if the Hon. what is the Convention ? According to the Noble j Member (Mr_ Whitbread) wished to give advice to Lord, what we have seen contains substantial inac. the Crown, he could do it as regularly upon the pub curacies. This Document appeared so doubtful in ' lished Treaty as upon the authentic document. its meaning as to require en explanation on the part I Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that as the Noble of the Crown of Great Britain to take away its dan. Lord had been the Demon, or God of the Storm, gerous qualities. Now what is it that the Noble now he was metamorphosed into the Genius, or Hal. Lord proposes ? He proposes nothing less than to cyon of the Calm. From what the Noble Lord ,at take away all equality of discussion—to subject his first said, no man could have anticipated what had opponents to bring forward a motion on grounds recently fallen from his lips. Now he was perfectly which might not be correct; and to give himself an ready to grant every thing that was required.—[No, opportunity of taking us by surprise, and obtaining no ! from Lord Castlereagh.]—Yes, he would grant the House's approbation of that Conveution on a all that was wanted—the substance of the Treaty.— statement made by him in the course of debate, [No, no!]—Well, then, the fact would- be known which approbation might afterwards influence their ols Mouday, and Mr. hitbread had no disposition future judgment.—He begged to ask the Noble Lord, te raise a new storm by further contention. if the matter were to be fairly discussed, whether it I Lord CASTLEREAGIL—I canpot see that there wpuld not be much more desirable that the House is any matter of difference between us now. The should hare an opportunity of discussing the Treaty Honourable Member does not, however, quite ap. in a correct state ? The - Noble Lord might lay it in- , prove of my conduct, and lam not sorry for it, be formally upon the table, as he bud done the Papers cause there is nothing that I am so much afraid of as regarding Genoa and Sweden. The Treaty of Chau- his praise. moot had also been laid in substance before the Mr. WHITBREAD.—The fear expressed . by the House, although it had not been ratified, and the Noble Lord is quite as unfounded as my praise would same course might no* be pursued. This was the , have been If . 1 had ever bestowed it; for the fact is, fair and only way of meeting the question, unless the that he never received a scintilla of applause (famine Noble Lord meant to obtain the applause of the during the whole course of his political life. • • House by stratagem. If, as the Noble Lord had The question was then put, and it. was ordered said, the genuine Treaty had been so mis.represent- that the House at its risingshould adjourn till Moil ed, was it not the more necessary that a correct I day. statement of its contents should be furnished, even to avoid the expression of unfavourable opinions, not warranted by the Treaty itself? He therefore put it sincerely and respectfully to the Noble Lord, whether, even for his own -case, it would wet be .4- visable to produce an accurate statement of the sub stance of the Treaty ? Mr. METHUEN denied that he had given any abstract applause to the conduct of Lord Castlereagh this instance it received his full approbation:— [Hear, hear !]—lle thought he might fairly accuse the other side of the House with giving abstract and systematic opposition to every measure of Govern ment, under whatever circumstances it might be adopted.—[llcar, hear Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that for the reasons he had before stated, he should decline lay ing the substance of the Treaty before the House, unless a distinct motion were made upon the subject; and then he could state his opinion, and adopt such conduct as he might deem expedient. Lord MILTON begged to know on what day the Treaty in question had been received by Govern. meet ? PROPERTY TAX. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER brought in the New Property Tax Bill. On the question that it be rend a first time, Mr. J. P. (;RANT said, he should oppose the measure on the second reading, and not on the pre sent occasion, after what had just passed in the Hone. - - _Mr. GRENFELL explained the vote he gave in the minority on the former night, which was only intended to produce the delay of a fortnight as pro posed by Mr. Brand. The events that had recently occurred induced him to think that such a measure was necessary, under two or three modifications:— l. Thet the Property Tax should be rendered more equal, by lessening the burden upon persons whose incomes were from 2 to 5001. a year.-2. That incomes derived from trade or professions should not pay in the same proportion as incomes de rived from fixed property.-3. That some regula tions should be introduced to diminish the inquisito rial powers of the Commissioners on affairs of Taxes in Somerset-place. Mr. ELLIS supported the Bill, but recommended that a Committee should be appointed to consider of the fit modifications. Lord CASTLEREAG II answered, that he should be prepared to give every information on a future day. 11Ir. BENNETT enquired whether that part of the published copy were contained in the authentic do cument, in which the Allies were made to declare that they would " bring to justice all such persons as shall have joined, or may hereafter join, the party of Napoleon ?" lie wished to know whether that provision had been ratified by the British Go. vernment ? I Mr. GORDON was disposed strenuously to op. pose the Bill, and called the recollection of gen tlemen to the assertion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he would allow of no modifications. I Sir JOHN NEWPORT declared his intention ! of dividing the House upon the first reading, in pur lguano, of his original determination. Mr. BENSON bore testimony to the change of sentiment in Liverpool in favour of the Prqperty Tax. It gave Alitnsters no greater power, because taxes to the same amount would have been raised by other Bills, if not by that now before - the House. Mr. C. WYNNE regretted the expenditure to which we were exposed, but thought no other urea sure calculated to meet the difficulty. I _Mr. BARING did.not . admit that any change halo taken place in the public opinion on this Bill since last year; but he was' walk* to allow that it might be prudent to adopt it for one year.-1. Because the machinery was already prepared.-2. Because it would enable Government to act with that vigour and decision which might put an end to a new war. He wished the tax to be continued in• its prettiest shape rather than allow the introduction of Modifica tions that might lead to making it permanent. Mr. PONSONBY did not feel himself bound to vote for the Property Tax, bemuse he had agreed to the Address of the 7th April. He ridiculed the idea of getting rid of the tie it the end of the year. All experience showed, particularly the last American war, that nothing was so: emir to begin, and few things so difficult as to terminate war. t was idle • to Suppose that this new war, in which we were about to be involved, would sown be terminated'. Alderman ATKINS thought the tax unequally assessed. Lie was instructed by his constituents to.i rote egoinst it, but he thought it, notwithstanding, the best tax that could be found in a great emergency, If properly Modified. He wished for a Committee, with the understanding that intention to the particu lar descriptions of property Should be attended to. He thought that upon a fair plurally COMmittee, the landholders wobld aiine fir . i ':fitly and han Mr. W diomely,,and tletet SitlititjTbibi tuif* . • I' . t* be ifllitte .'• Lord CASTLEREAGH had no objection to state, that that part nas decidedly incorrect —substantially inaccurate. Lord MILTON asked, whether this Ticaty was in the hands of ;Ministers before the 7th of April, the day ou which the Noble Lord bad obtained the Address: . - •.- • _ . Lord CASTLEREAGH - replied in the affirmative, and added, that he was prepsred to contend that there was nothing at all inconsistent between the terms of the Address and of the 'Treaty. Mr. TIERNEY regretted that the Noble Lord had any objection to produce the substance of the Treaty. Lord CASTLEREAGH—I have not stated that I bad any objection'. Mr. WHITBREAD—Does the Noble Lord mean to say, that if a motion be now made In will produce it ? Lord CASTLEREAGH answered, that he could not undertake to lay it before the House upon an immediate motion, if not in courtesy to his Col leagues, whose opinions he wished to receive, but in courtesy also to the Representatives of other Powers, whose interests were alike affected. Mr. WHITBREAD regretted tat &O.= Lord had not wed the time of HOOK by, making such a statement. Was he now swami. stand, that if t t motion were made on Illooldey fir the substance of the Treaty, it would meet with tMcotrti pli;ace of tbe.Noble Lord ? If so, he would of conelie' move for it, and then the subject would be tairlieed clearly before. the House. Lord CASTLETtIitiMIX 'ski, that be imd d . ente r into no compact.. He was..stmritoot tie Hon. Member should so long rebiiMbi the-dmi, tonitilos disdassion ; but •he 'thought the - wtirt, laderatait'l :propositions quite lusq vt i :that t f should NI it'Conntiittee. It was t . delosinn to pose, 'that the tat •could* he inflicted for a year.ot It was as probable •thit it might be saddled on country for ever. Let Gentlemen give fair•plal their own experience on this subject ; let them h to 'the last war, and the war precedin g it, oli some said would• be over in a week or a -1 ( night; consider the number of French pria n „, restored, all burning with resentment. whether ji or unjust, and numerous enough to keep op war a long time. Was the temper of the French such to ,render the duration of war short? i 1 beliv, that if this country calculated the chances of ix tracted war, it wNtld be against the revival o f tax. The House divided, viten the niimberrwero, For the Bill being rend it brit time. 79----Agaism 11 17. The Bill was then read a first, and ordered to read a second time on Monday. The second reading of the Alien Bill was des moved, nod the House was cleared fur a divi6 which, however, did not take place.—Th e was read a second time. During the exclusion of strangers, Sir J. NE PORT moved for an Account of the Gross and Produce of the Proper:y Tax, distinguishin g the pi s . tricts and Classes, for the last live years, ending sth of April, ISIS. The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQU' moved the previous question. Mr. misfussuisi opposed thP motion, on ground, that as much of the informationas was mei, was before ti, House. The CiIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER that if he motion were put into another shape, should have no objection to the information Wag laid betor the House. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that to render that formation of any use, it would be necessary that t . second reading of the , Bill should be postponed otherwise, no one bet official peitons could see iF information before the House was called on to decid on the second reading. He was not wedded to particularform of his motion, and should be willing agree to any alteration, to meet the wishes of Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. GORDON thought the Administ - ritiort wit be accused of precipitation in the progress of t Property Tax Bill ; and it could not fail to excite, idea in the country that the Bill was precipitated, from the apprehension that the public voice would loudly raised against it. The Honourable Members who had approved of the Bill, under the idea that some modifications would be admitted, mightlee that no such modifications would be admitted, •aslbe: formation on which alone they , could be founded, would, on account of the precipitation with which the Bill was hurried on, come too late to be-Of ur After a few observations between Mr. HusliPsoa, Mr. V. Fitzgerald, Mr. H. Merlin, and Sir J. N port, the previous question was withdrawn, and motion was agreed to for—" a return of tfie Gros , and Net Assessment of the Property Tax for five years, ending April 5, 181 , 5, distinguishing Classes." Mr. GORDON asked * whether atter ell that been said the Chaureticu! of tho ; ‘ ,„al press the second reading of the Property Tax Bill - Monday. .'• • ' - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUF CALI, OF Tom. fiarst:. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that as he could not lo.w a Bill - which' imposed 1-1 millions of taxes on country in a manner generally odious, without a attendance, atleast in one stage, he should give tire that he would on Monday move the Cali of house for Thursday neat. 'The Exmoor and Brecon Forest Bills were read second time,. and ordered to be p_ . iivited. The Pillory Abolition 13111 was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on iV.disesday. Sir S. ROM ILLY took the'oPporturilty data( that he entirely concurred in the principle of thin Bill, whicb made a most material alteration in the criminal law of the country. The Scotch Record Bill sleet through a Com mittee, and was ordered to be read a third time Monday. The Irish Treasury Bills Bill was read a third time and passed. The Prize Ships' Bill went through a Committee, to Ire reported on Monday. The Irish Bank Restriction Bill was read a (hit time and passed. Lord NUGENT gave notice, that on Wedmiesda) he should move, that the papers respeciimmg the action between-two packets, and au American privateer, referred to a Committee. Mr, LUSIIINGTON brought in the Bleach' Powder Bill, which was read it first time.— Po read a second time on Monday. Adjourned to Monday.. - • LiTe h :ali d i f r il e gug , p ar ubl 3 i _ WHITAKER, .on the lst..of May, pric? 3.1. It tri4 be distinguishable from other works of a similar de : fr i n t. ci thl y by Jo ir ri A r u n a! ~ . scription by being- more miscellitneotis;* and by ci" !aiming, besides the usual Analysh of nooks and Comte of . the merits of Authors, a General View Public Affairs, midi a Itegister arid shod accoout of Invetitions, Di:,coverh.r, insirrovedents in and Sciences... *liAttftlEb. On the ?bib *inst. W. Witlitimitm, gig. of Tenle -trot. Miss Chainbtrs, daughter of. J. t;isaasheis, Eaq. of 1‘...' 'street. On the SIM inst. Mr. Snnsuel Mitchell. s e cond son o f 6.- Michael Mitchell. Esq. of flornsey, Middlesex, to bliss Michael, of Worcester. On 'Elitiroinv last, James, second isms of W. Smith, *eon'. Itithmond, 'MPAftey. W Swab, daughter of Edo i•• • frAq. of the someplace. arti. On the Ildrisf *Oen, Ai Budtintliord; Herta, nged#37. Drage, relket of tlie•lair W Mims Grass.. On the 17111 inst. srjnn Crowder, Esq. late of 13 "'' court, uarepstreet, surgeon to Bethiens Bridewell tats.• 00.iht Ilt.instt at Falmouth, upon his return from Malls. ' the Tipi_yegi of his ay . ., the W iwaham. M. Gaistitider, s-econd oe of Edward Wiloriso. Jim. Cireacliter, in the county of Gloucester. 5 4 010014 r Prima' gild PlOillsiied hrl). LnirciL• Sfatstataff °Fries, 57. Ftett4treet etirth r ther e Q 'sue- onl y. em th e tIAV 1‘: nhicrcit I er jp tar fel e neh es olh.sod 'f of this 17. to b e 1 s then vitfton, e Eill onto. 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