The Statesman. — London, England, 1823-03-01 00:00:00

Id by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that a surplus revenue was not only obtained, but such confidence might be placed in the steadiness and good sense et the House, that they would have the virtue and the re solution to keep it. He wished Gentlemen to consider what ',would be the situation of the country without such a surplus. How would casual expences and the necessary demands of sudden emergencies be supplied It was a reason with him for the support of a Sinking Fund, that be thought it applicable to the wants arising from peculiar circumstances, which would not be other wise so nudely provided for. There might he exigencies of six nten•hs or twelve months duration, in which the linking Fund would meet the crisis without the 'feces siry fur a loan; and such exigencies occurred in all countries. Ile conceived such an application to be the use, and not time abuse of the Funding System. That it 'night be abused there was no doubt; but its legitimate time was to make boasts to inert casual circumstances, re deemable by an application of the surplus of revenneoves expenditure. The great advantage was, that such a surplus enabled the State to meet difficult circumstances without laying on additional taxes, until it were ascertained whether they should be permanent or not (hear, hear !) Nothing could be more Injurious than to lay on taxes one year and repeal them another; it was a course inconsist ent and unit tse. He might adduce a strong exemphifica lien of his argument in the case of France. That coun ley loud now a Sinking Fund of SO millions of fnmes, or about flue sterliog, which was properly applied to the reduction of debt. The consequence was, that if France were called oo for a military demonstration (he dirt not wake any inviduous allusion but only by way of argument), she could call for 100 millions of franc., and in mum-gm nee the casual demands upon her would be sa tisfied; and whether that was obtained by borrowing from the sinking fund, or be loans an I payment made from the s trplus, was a question of very little importance Imecauee in either nay the relief was in the existence and 'the application of the Sinking Fund. Let gentlemen also look to America; that country, with which we had lately peen at war, and with which we night be so again.— .America had established a Sinking Fund, and et as making rapid strides towards the redaction of debt, which placed her credit on such a foundation as would be of signal edeantage to her in case of new emergencies. The Em peror of Russia had also condescended to copy our sys tem of finance, and had established a Sinking Fund, which, he believed, was fairly and honestly applie I. lie adverted to those instances telly with the view of poin•ing out the aderetage which the greatest Powers of Europe, as well as the first State on the new Continent derived from acting on this principle ; and he would ask, was this country to deprive itself of the beneficial system which the others cop;e11 from her, or could she do so with wet descending from her high and pre.eminent station itt the weal, and becoming- dependent, like the King ef Ftence, of whom it was said that he must march l'ito Spain, or somebohv else would march over him ? This was note que-mina between the fundholder and the 1 ael °eller ; but the plan of the hon. meinter was cal culated to raise the funds for the first year. He (Mr. ii.) did rot krow what good that would do to the coantre. He it it was not any question between the 'dealer in stock and the pro?rietor of lands. The question be. fine Gentlemen of that House was, whether they would eunsolt for particularioterests. or take the views of states- Men. and place the fitsances of the country upon a proper basis? It this were not done, he should like to bear from the Ilononreble Member for Porta lingten how the country was to act effectively without a surplus revenue? He would be Alad to know what would be the situation ofethe conntry without credit? He believed it would he like the state of France at the time of the restoration of she Bourbon', or like that of the poor and unfortunate Spain, whose liberties were likely to fall under the op pression of the powers of Europe, on account of her want of public credit. The consequences of the want of credit to England herself at no very distant period, muss be known to the Honourable Member. He could not be norant of the time when Exchequer Bills, Victu tiling Pill:, and all her floating debt was at discount. A coun try in such a state must do what tradesmen are obliged tai resort to who have imperfect credit. She must pay half as much again as if her credit were good: but, as the credit of th;s country now stands, it is the interest of every body to deal with Government, and-therefore alt engagements are made on the most a Ivarrageons terms 4., the public.—He ttati, therefore, most anxious th it Gen tlemen should consider this question not lightly, but in sesriga!e it closely and beer in mind the state of the country at a former period when its credit was low, and Also the state of other Powers, as the effect of their finan cial plans, and they would then pause befne they with drew that prop of public credit Loin the State which would reduce the empire to the most abject condition. He es idled to say a word mare with respect to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Portarlington, coupled with something said by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. The opinion of the former Gentleman (Mr. Ricardo) he knew was a farcutite opinion of his. It deinonstra - ed ' how great was his ingenuity, and hom little he applied that ingenuity to practical purposes (hear, bear, hear.) That Honourable Member proposed to get • rid of the debt by a general adjuettnent of property, as if it were possible to make any adjustment between the debts and property of this country. It was a thing quite im practicable. The same observation might be applied to the opinion of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. He had brought forward Resolutions, in which there was much w;re calculation for persons curious in such matters. He (Mr. Hume) stated, that in the last war six millions ad ditional taxes, instead of borrowing, would .have saved thewhole debt; that was altogether visionary. —(Hear, bear.)—How could we start at once from a taxation of sixteen millions before the year 92 to 60, which was ahlent the extreme taxation of the war, and then put six additional, without a revolntion of all the inter ests of the country ? The Honourable Member stated what might be arithmetically true, but what was practi cally false.—(Hear, hear.) There was no doubt that . there was a great abuse of the funding system during the war, brit it Was in the Addington Adminstration, which he by no means gererally admired. that those masses of wee mere laid on which enabled the country to prose. rive the war with vigour and success. But as to the ad eitionel taxation proposed by the one hon. member, and the adjustment of property suggested by the other, he must ass• rt, that however specious in theory, or valid in ahstractralculation, they were totally inapplicable to any practical object.—(hear, hear.) Mr. TIERNEY commenced by observing, that the question was of so important a nature, that he was sure the house would pardon him if be wade a few observe- Vona upon it; be could assure his Honourable Friend (Mr. Haring), that he did not view the subject hen attached as much %%eight and consideration to it as the Honourable Member himself could porsibly do.— ( (leers beer) lle 'A as convinced, that he wal as deeply impressed with a sense of the interest and extent of time rostion as any Wan who meddled with financial sub jects. But what was the real question? He knew it »as tithing 'else than stilettosr five millions acre to be taken from the taxes of the country or not.—(lleac, beer.) He !whiled such an inducement had been offered to the house as at least would incline it tes listen whether a Sialdog Fuml of five millions was to be anpported, or a reduction of taxes to that amount Ile (Mr. T.) mould oithoot fear Of eontrediction from the of test Mem bers of the house, th st no one had been a more consistent Mesa SW rise pNic of Mr. Pitt's Sinking Fund than him self; bat he had often warned the house of the I 'vista . expellee of that Minister, tinder which no plan of a Sink vg Fund could be carried into a beneficial effect.— (He ;v. af.) Though he sepported the original principle cat TIIE STATESMAN, the Sinking Fund, he did not think that the present si tuation of the country was such as to bear a Sicking Fund of five millions. That situation was such, tkat it required at least a remission of taxes to that amount, to ease the minds of the people.—(Hear.) He had out-lived the real Sinking Fund, for of that established by Mr. Pitt not a trace was now remaining.—(Cheers on the Opposition Benches.) It was truly said by his Honour able Friend behind him, who had treated the subject o it h great perspicuity, that repeated invasions had been made on the original Sinking Fund. He (Mr. T.) had nit• nessed those invasions, and hat opposed every one of them. But now the mask was thrown aside, for whili the law declared that there was a Sinking Fund of 10 millions, the house was now called upon to declare that there should be a Sinking Fund of but five millions. But it oat, said on the opposite side, that the public co : tilt depended on a Sinking Fund of five millions. But if we adhered to the principle of public faith, we should have a Sinking Fund of 17 millions.—(tlear, hear.) This was established by law, but in the yeer 1819 the Ministers changed their plan ; they wished a Repulution of the house, stating that there should be a Sinking Fund of five millions, which should be binding upon the country, and whoever denied it was an enemy to piddle credit. He (Mr. T.) understood public credit to be no thing else than a faithful adherence to piddle engage ments. But the Ministers asserted that puha:. cer.dt was to maintain more than we wanted by five millions. —(Hear, hear.) Now, he wanted to know whether it was convenient to the country to have five millions of Sinking Fund under the present state of thistle; for they were not now to consider the state of the law, but the state of the country.— (Hear, hear.) He could assure his honourable friend (Mr. Baring). that the country would receive more substantial benefit from the pro posed remission of taxes in seven years than from the support of the Sinking Fund. Now, ;he Right Hon. Gentleman ctlie Chancellor of the Exchequer) seemed to be convinced of this truth, though he ha 1 not suffi cient resolution to carry it into complete effect. He hid seven millions to be applied to the reduction of the debt, and why did he give up two millions of it to a rends sion of taxation? He (Mr. T.) believed he had done so wisely. The seven millions belonged to the fund holders as well as the five mdlions, and why had the Bight Honourable Gentleman given up the two mil lions ?—(Hear.) He was convinced he had done so most wisely ; and why bad he not gone further? — however, clear that lied gone far enough to altew, that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and his oppo nents only . differed in the degree, while they agreed in I the principle (loud cheers). The Itight• Honourable Gentleman ass willing to give op his seven millions of ' Sinking Fund, and to substitute one of five millions ; ' and at the same time he was determined to hold up every one who was for reducing that five millions as an enemy to public credit (hear, }tear!). No one appeared to strike more closely at the principle of the Sinking Fund ' than his Honourable Friend ,• but he wanted a surplus of ' five millions—a surplus which was to be a security to the politic creditor—at the same time that he allowed it was to he applicable to eortain exigencies which might arise, as in the case of war. It was certainly an excellent I thing to have a surplus revenue of five millions ; and it would even admit that it was much better to have a sur plus of ten millions (hear, and laughter). , But the ques t tion was, whether the condition of the country was such ' as to allow a Sinking Fund to be applied to that ex ! tent ? He thought nor. He contended that the House ought not to bind itself down to any specific resolution, which could not be gut rid of without an invasion of pub lic credit. The time to get rid of the present Sinking Food was during a term of peace, as there could not be a more favourable moment for entertaiuing a project for the remission of taxes [bear !). For what could be more mischievous than the principle of a Sinleng Fund which was to be applied to the reduction of the debt, and of course was so far a security of the public credi tor, and which was also to be appropriated in cer tain exigencies, such as those of war, to defray the ex ! petters of the nation (lea*, hear '.). If the fund were the means of supporting public credit, why were they to be told that in case of a war, or in any unforeseen exigency, that Fund was to be diverted from i s original desti nation —that is, that when public credit most warted support, it was then to he invaded?—(Cheers.) —Concerning pub lic credit, he believed it to consist in a punctual and ho nourable adherence to national engagements ; such an adherence was our best resource in the prosecution of a war, and he was convinced that if our public engagements were faithfully discharged. that a war property under.' falcon, and in consonance with the feelings of the people, would be amply provided for by thedaxes voted in that hoes!, and would lie most cheerfully supported by the country.—(Hear.)—The honourable member had spoken of the deceptions of hoer,: poen*, and told ns that the time of cobjuring was past, while he was himself anxious to lay a few balls on the table.—(Loud laughter.) Would the house vote for seven millions or five ridllions as the real disposable surplus ? It would take away a great part of his objection if the sum, whatever it might be,was voted merely as a surplus, to he applied to the remission of taxes from time to time. But if a law passed, fixing the sum as a fund specifically for the reduction of the debt, any change of its epplicatioe must operate as most prejudicial. As to the remission of taxes, could any one beoeve that the amount taken away would be the amount lost? He was of a different opinion. The remission would help to restore the revenue, and he believed that to be the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequrr when he proprose 1 that of the seven millions which n ere to maintain the public credit, two millions should be ap plied to the remission of taxes. He knew that the most beneficial effects must result from a reduction of taxes equivalent to that seven millions ; the most advantageous result must flow from the diffusion of so much capital over the country, and it must be lunch Inure productive of national benefit than it could have been in the hands of Commissioners, to be laid out for the reduction of the debt from time to time (hear, hear.) Every man must wish that there was not only a surplus of five millions, but much more, but could any one doubt the dreadful state of the country since the conclusion of the late war ? He requested that he should not be asked to strut and-tri umph as one who had gained something, when his great est exertions could scarcely keep what he possessed.— The stockholder ought not to let it out of his mind that men of landed property were placed in the most difficult circumstances. He hoped the stockholder would not find fault with him, because he extended his sympathy to that class, who had to pay off jointures, life annuities and mortgages, engaged for under circumstances very different trom the pros-nt. He was sure from the state ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that their only relief was in the reductiim o f taxation. On this point, he (Mr. T.) thought they hail been ail agreed; but now this nolievy resolution was put forward, and as he understood, to ne embodied into a law on Monday next, that five millions represented the public credit. He thought the country was highly indebted to his honour able friend (Mr. Maberly), for having brought forward a plan for the reduction of the taxes. %Vheiher that plan ell - renal the purpose i wended, was another question; but it was one that if it did no good could do no harm. Sup posing that purchases were made, as his lion, friend sug , geated, no one could doubt that the stock market email be relieved to the amount of 41 millions. It was stated hat this would throw away 1,200,0001. of income; not so, for it could lessen the burdens of the people. -(Hear.) It he were to transfer ten annul's)? of 100 3 per uents. to the public, he would bare au annuity of 31. a year on the land, so that in the transactions there he neither profit nor loss.—(Hear.) If this scheme ~1 were foolish, all 'the folly of it Could be imputed to the plan of Mr. Pitt; for it was the principlelf that Minis ter Os relieve the stock market from the depression aris ing from the amount of stork, which in his time was be tween three and four hundred millions; hut he avould like to know what he would say now when it was neat eight hundred millions?—(Hear, hear.) It had be--a ar toed that his Honourable Friend's plan would give the , Stockholder an advantage, by raising the price of the fonds. If it did give the Stockholder that advantage, it was one to which he was entitled, in return for the ile , privation of the Sinking Fund. On subjects of this kind it was right to take into consideration the fair claim of all parties ; and if the Stockhuder could be benefittril . whi:rat any injory to the country generally, he did not see that any objection mild he made to it. Tier Hon. Member for Taiinton said the stocks might rise for a time, if the propositions es ere adopted. Be it so. H (Mr. Tiercey) was quite indifferent on the subject. If, however % there was one thing from which he would more earnestly implore the Right llonoarable the Chancellor of the Excheqieer to abstain than from any other (and he aas sore, from the character of the Right Iluniotrable Gentleman, that he noel i not torn a rlenf ear to the sug gestion) it was fro.n the miserable tricks which the c minty had formerly wit oessed for the purpose of raising the funds on the Stock Exchang,e, and then of coming down to the lipase of CO:litilOaS and exclaiming, " 0! the fluids have risen one or two per ten:." He (Mr. T.) would Fawn his life indeed, from all which he hail ob served of the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that-ha would never descend to any such artifices. With regard to the jostive of t' e measure, be was wAling to al low, that on the first view of it, it di 1 appear rather a sharp proceeding to imply by the redemption of the land tax, that that tax was necessarily perpetual in its charm' ter, while all other tax , s were liable to repeal. Mr. Pitt distinctly saw that hardship; hut he said, that if the landed gentlemen would lend themselves to the pro ceeding, they would materially benefit public credit, by dimiaishing the load of debt in the market, and putting it in another shale-. All that his friend wished (whether wisely or not he wool I 1110 t Say), was to tread in this re spect io Mr. Pitt's footsteps. There wet this difference, however, in the two plats. Mr. Pitt's plan was baffled by the terms being such that a witch smaller portion has redeemed than he anticipate I ; of two millions only about 7011,00/. had been redeemed. His lion. f iend recommended that better terms shout I he given;—that 'three pounds should be ode. n with one band, and three pounds taken by the other. Anil this Wee what the hon. 'member for Taunton called locus picas! To relieve the 'Stockholder from the disaivant ige which he would'ssis . Min from t tieing away the Sinking Fund, and at the , F ame time to relieve the country form paying five millions annually more than WaS necessary, the Hon. . Gentleman called hocus pocus. It would seem from the ! arguments which hail been urged against his honourable Friend's proposition, that if taxation were suspended for six or seven years, it could never be a2ain laid on. Now ' really to tell I that if after such a period of relief any emergency should require the imposition of fresh taxes, I they might not easily be imposed, and under the circum i 'tames of that relief cheerfully paid, was to tell hint ! something which he could not at all understand, with respect to his llon. Friend's Resolutions, lie did not deny that some of than might require alteration. What he now supported, however, was the first Re-olution, de claratory of the disposiiion of the house to entertain the project. A cheap and valuable project, in his opinion, it was. it 000ld enable Pediment to relieve the pen plc at once one a considerable sum in taxation. He by ! no means boomsr thought that the %shale seven millions should be taken off. Some part of it o ight to reinain,to meet ' any exigency which might arise; but, after leasing a auffiaimstoorplu,s.a great Lome might be conferred on the country by the renrssion He hod already sail that the stockholder would benefit by the adoption of the plan; but even if he were not to do so, the stockhol ler ought of all mi n to be forward in making any fair sacrifice that would he conducive to the general interest; and thereby to sheer his gratitude or the way in which the rest of the community, beset with difficulties as they were, had steadily defen led his rights. He ought to do all he could to show his disposition to participate in the general effort to lighten the difficulties of the country ; anobject which in his (Mr. Tierhey's) firm opinion, would be, more effectually obtained by the diminution of taxes t i ara by any other course that could be pursued (hear!).' Mr. HUSKISSON apologised to the hove for address ing them after the very able manner in which the subject had been discussed by his Right Hon, Friend the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, and by the hon. member for Taunton. The house would at once perceive that the present was an anticipation of the discussion that would tyke place more regularly on Monday next, when his Right thin. Friend had signified his intention of bring ing the whole question respecting that most important part of our financial system, the Sinking Fund, under their consideration. He would not complain of it, but the Right lion. gent. who had just spoken hail introduced the subject rather prematurely in his observations on the sp pelt of the hon. member for Taunton—a speech which he (Mr. Huskisson) had heard with the greatest satisfac tion, exhibiting, as it dill, the most statesman-like and just views with regard to the great importance of tetai'doir a surplus revenne,and employing it in the liquidation of the debt. Coming, asthat opinion did, from an individual of the lion. gent.'s knowledge and experience, he (Sir. I II.) was persuaded that it would have more weight in the country, and tend more to the maintenance of the public credit, than if it had proceeded from almost any other person in the house. Ile owned that he was 'ouch cur prized at what had just fallen from the Right Hon. gent. on the subject of the Sinking Fund. The Right Hon. Gentleman's observations were as applicable against the creation of a Sinking Fund at any period, as - they were against the maintenance of a Sinking Fluid at p present. When he recollected how strenuous a supporter slat Right Honourable Gentleman was of the establish ; went of the Sinking Fund in 1786, he was at a loss to understand why he hail so completely changed his opi nion on the subject. The Right Honourable Gentlemen had urged as one objection to the application of the sur plus of five millions as &Sinking Fund, that it was taking that sum out of the pockets of the people, which would fructify to the national advantage in their pickets much more than in the redncion of t - he debt. There was no objection more trite, nor any which had been so fre quently brought against the Sinkine. Fund. but it was general in its nature. It was applicable not only to the present time and eireums!anses, hat to all time; and cir• cumstances ; when it was proposed so as to apply a sur plus revenue. He (Mr. Ilitskisson) wss one of those who regretted the departure Iron) the origin principles of the Sinking Fond. He wished that those principles. hag been hell inviolable. Adverting to the argument of the Honourable Member for Portarlington grounded on the enrolee I case of an individual who having an estate worth 10,0001., with an incumbrance of s,otier., set aside 1001, from his remaining income as a Sinking. Fund for the liquidation of his debt; lee observed that the lion. Gentleman ha I forgotten that in the c ese of a nation there might be a paramount necessity for such a proceed ing as the subsequent loan ; and that even in the ima ginary ease which the lion. gent. had par, the supposed individual would have been ultimately in debt only 12,0001. instead of 17,000 L The lion. gentleman's illus tration therefore afforded, in his (Mr. Iluskision's) opi nion, a strong instance of the advantage n hich the country must derive from the' maintenance of some Sinking Fond. The night Honourable Member for Knareshorongh admitted, and he (Mr. lissakisiceii) hailed the adiniesioa with great satistnctiOn, that some surplus revenue wale indispensable in order to maiptaio the 'fic credit on aay emergency to avoid temporary - embar. fasoinalite, and to avoid the necessity of resort to loans On trifling occasions. The only quests lion therefore was, what ought to he the amount of that sarp'ss ? Was 'a suplus of five millions more than was adequate to the necessity? On that point, then, and on that alone, he was at issue with the Right Honourable Oentleman. Of this he was persuaded, that even if the Sinking Fnnd w ere abolished, it would he expedient to have.a surplus of not much less than five millions to meet soy occasional fluctuations that might take place in the-amount of the revenue, and to provide against un ompeced contingencies. He would ask those who were rejoiciog at the present improvement in the revenue (and no man more einceiely rejoiced at it than himself) whe ther, if the country were to Lie visited with a bad hu gest, which would necessarily be for.owed by a great change in the price of all the articles of life, and of com fortable subsistence, there would nut be a considerable diminution in the Revenue of Excise? In that case, if the present estimated surplus were less than five millions might not serious public inconvenience and embarrass ment be the result , To the Right Hon. Gentleman's question, why a surplus of five mil:ions should be pre served ? he had thus given one ansoer. But he would. go for her. Whether the Resolution which had been adopted by the House of Commons in 1819, was wise or no', was net the present question. But it ought to be re collected,that it was a resolution which hail been adopted by a very large majority of the house. if it were nowt') be departed from, what would be the impression on the country, what would be the impression on all Eu rope in the present feverish state of the world?— (Hear, hear.) What would be the general inference which would be drawn from such a proceeding, both abroad and at home?—(Hear.) Did the house recol lect the distinct and explicit terms of the Resolution to which he adverted? They were these: "That to pro vide for the exigencies of the public service, to make such progressive reduction of the national debt as may 'a tequately support public credit, and to afford to the country a prospect of future relief from a part of its pre sent burthens, it is absolutely necessary that there should he a clear surplus of the income of the country beyond the expenditure, of not less than 5,000,0001." Were that Resohrimi not io the way, the Right Ilunourable tae ,- tleman -niialst, perhaps, argue more effectaatly a4ai .Ist the maintenance of such a surplus. But with such a Re• solution on the Journals of the !iodise of Common*, no thing short of the most pressing necessity could jortlfy yp in inspiring the national creek in the eyes of hnrcoe, ' abandoning the surplus which we had solemnly d— ared it was indispensable to maintain. if, on the ut roc hand, it was a.question as to the amount of surplus, he contended that 5,090,0001. was not a larger sum than was necessary to maintain our credit in the eyes of the world, especially at a time when there was not a country in the world which did not think it essential to its own power and security to imitate, and in sonic instances to surpass, the example of England in the reduction of debt. Another and a better opportunity, however, would occur on Monday, for discussing that most i:n portant point. It was admitted on all hands that there should be some surplus; and it became, therefore, livie more than a dispute about words, whether that surplus should be called a Sinking Fund, or some otter name. With respect to the Resolutions which had been moved by the Honourable Member fur Abingdon, he would not detain the house with more than a few seg. tences upon them. He [Mr. Huskisson] quite agreed with the honourable member for Taunton, that if those resolutions were proposed as a substitute for the Sink;no Fund, nothing could be devised less deserving of the office. The honourable gentleman's second resolnion declared, that it had been agreed unanimously by the house, that the only Sinking Fund which could be efficient was that which was produced by a surplus of income over expenditure. That was the ground work of the honoorable gentleman's plan ; and We way which lie proceeded to carry into executioa this 'deelsra- . t on of the House, was by proposing to do away with any surplus whatever who!ed of the honourahhe member for Abingdon's plan was to transfer -11,330,000'. of stuck from the purchasers of the Land Tax, provided the whole 1,239,7011. were redeemed and purchased. For what was commonly called the redemp tion of the land tax was simply the transfer of a poi tiom of the debt from one class of individuals to another. Suppose the bouourable gentleman found persona ready to-morrow morning to conclude the whole transaction, what would be the consequence P—The public charge and the public incene would be equally diminished. Hy the Act of 1786, each separate loan was to be considered as a separate debt. Fur the interest of each loan a ape edit: sum was provided by specific taxes for that purpose. He would ask whether if, with regard to any loan subse enent to 179•2, and any tax given—the sugar duty for insttnee—had been appropriated to the payment of the interest on that loan, and we were now to allow that duty to Ise redeemed, any advantage would be gained ? It would be very ea•iy to write off all our debt in a similar way ; but when we hail done an, we should be paying just the same interest, and be liable to just the saute chugs as at present. But as the Honourable Member for Aber deen had said on a recent occasion, we ought tolook at the debt with reference not to the capital, bat to the annual charge upon it. That charge being in no way affected by the proposition of the honourable member foe Abingdon. lie must say, with all his :•eApect for that Hods nourable Gen.leman's acuteness and ingenuity, that lie thought the Honourable Member for Taunton justified in calling it a species of conjuring. With the greate.t respect for the talents which had been displayed by the Honourable Relation of the Honourable stiover of the pl in under consideration, he in tut positively deny that there was any resemblance between the present case area the circumstances under which Mr. Pitt proposed his measure. In the present state of the country the loegis latere had no object in view to induce them to call ott the country to make sacrifices for the purpose of keeping up the price of the funds. la time of -war such a pro ceeding might be extremely desirable; but in time of peace, when, if there were any willed; of revenue, it secs applied to the reduction of the d,bt, and when the:ero tism were no longer the creaters and sellers, but the poi.- chasers f stork, they could have no possible reason for wishing to raise the price of the funds. lf, therefore, the prOpoved plan were worthy of adoption at any period. it would rather be at a time when public credit might be labouring from great drains upon it, than eta time when it was in circumstances of comparative elevation ; it would be at a time when goverrmien: were sellers ra ther than when they were purchasers of smelt. The whole proposed proeeeditig, therefore, appeared to him to be de lusive. And even if it were adopted, lie rather thought that great disappointment would ensue it itli regard to the extent of its practicable execution. There we r e a grea t m my iircuinstancee, which would conspite to pre vent front bnying up the Lind 'Fax, and which wools( induce them to prefer the ease and seeer:ty of the public funds. 'I he amount of the Land 'fax in each co in'y was fixed, and was the same now as is the reign of Wi liam II I. It did not vat r. Hot in the event of the eiection of a great number of boildinge in any particular ilis•rict, a new apportion ono of she laud tax might take place. For that r soon individuais would be reluctant to buy what could rot increase hot might stieidnish in amount. The Right Ilona (lent. concluded by begging pardon. of the house for having intruded so long on. their attention. The Sinking Fend basing been attacked by sacb high ae thori is, he felt it his duty to shoe how inedossioesit the are's:merits on which that attack was founded, were with the d nnination to which Parliament ban alrestly come on tt.e oubjact,. as well as with the general policy by which the country ought to be actuateti Anti re- / • • 4 . • • '4 • • } `t 4,1 I , i. f . I t :1; A , " .# , • :44 i '~,~~ :k .1 ~~.k, i ;:. ~k