The Statesman. — London, England, 1824-02-17 00:00:00

i snake the change in money transactions which the Bill of the Learned Sergeant goes to effect. I know perfectly well that as his Majesty's Government have adopted this mea sure. I am speaking in vain in opposition to it; but in order to show that though I did not attend the Committee, I have not been so inattentive to it as my friends opposite think, I will undertake to bring down with me the Minutes of the Committee, and give a convincing proof that the Bill ought not to pass. Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW.—The Hon. Gentleman who seconded the amendment and the Hon. Baronet have fallen into very great mistakes respecting the origin of these l aw s. 'they talk of the policy of these laws. If they had read the preambles, they would find the laws ate founded on the most godly notion, that any interest is contrary to Christian principles. That is the language of the early statutes. No question of policy was ever thought of. Then we are told that the landed interest will be borne down. I contend quite the contrary. My principle is this—let money be free. The Bill is to allow persons to make their own bargains ; and yet Gentlemen say, we un derstand your business better than yon, and under pretence of aiding, we will threaten yon. Mr. ALEXANDER BARING.—I think the repeal of these laws a change of considerable importance, which immediately would produce no effect whatever; and it is, because it would immediately produce no effect that this is a fitting time not to legislate upon the subject of fixing a maximum in the value of money, hot to remove a false legislation. As has been truly said by my Hon. Friend who spoke on this subject, it is impossible to produce a good reason for the present law fixing a msximnm in the value of capital, any more than for fixing a maximum in the value of any article whatever.—(Hear, hear.) This is a most favourable opportunity for legislating upon the subject. It is almost the only year for the last half cen tury when it could, with safety, be legislated npon. We should avail ourselves of the opportunity of doing away these laws. It is stated that there has been an accumula tion of capital and commerce, notwithstanding the exist ence of these laws. That is, because the laws have been inoperative; because the evasion has always been so easy. To my great surprise, the very class of persona who, I should say above all others, wanld be benefited by the re peal of these laws, the Country Gentlemen—(hear, henry have taken the alarm. The objection of that respectable class is surprising, and I should hope, if it were only for the advantage of hearing what may be said on the sub ject, and seeing if we cannot remove their apprehensions and prejudices, that this Bill will he permitted to go fur ther ; but when it comes into a Committee, if we should not be able to persuade the country Gentleman that this is a Bill in his favour, nothing would be more easy than to except from the operation of it the loan of money upon mortgage, because it would be an immense benefit if these laws were repealed, as respects every other transaction— as respects the manufacturer and merchant. I have heard no Gentlemen connected with these interests speak in favour of these laws. If, on the further stages of this Bill, we should not be able to persuade the country Gentleman he is interested—more interested than any other class to gether, then you must relieve, at least, those who are under the operation of the Bankrupt Laws; or except loans on mortgage, if it should be deemed expedient. 1 can have. no doubt whatever upon the sul.i.et that the 1 , ntled pro prietors will derive very great relief from this (till—(hear, hear), if they should ever come into the prediran►rnt in which they st o ad during the whole of last war, when the Bill was inoperative on Commercial men, and Government were borrowing at usurious interest, and the Country Gen tleman had to pay 1•f per cent. From all the consideration I can give to this subject, I am persuaded that is the class of persons that will he the most relieved, by having a sound and proper legislation upon the subject. If, upon further inquiry, we should not be able to remove those ap prehensions, nothing would be more easy than to give the Gentleman the benefits of the present system, which I con ceive the greatest injury and the greatest curse. Captain MABEItLY said the evidence before the Committee all tended to the same point, that the Jaws against Usury were very prejudicial in their present state. Sir IVNI. 1)E CRESPIGNY said a few words in support of the Bill. Sir JOHN MARTIN agreed that these laws were inju rious to all classes of the community. Strayers were then ordered to withdraw. The numbers on the divisions were—For the second reading, 120-- Against it, 23.—Majority, 97. On our return to the Gallery, the CHANCV.LLOR of the EXCHEQUER had just rose. Ile sail, that in moving that the Report of the Committee of Ways and Means be brought up, it is not my intention to move to bring up those particular Reports which relate to Annual Duties. As I understand it is the intention of the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) to propose an Amendment to one of the Resolutions, namely, the duty on foreign spirits, I think it my duty not to bring that question up to-night, and for this reason. I stated to various persons who made applications to me, that I did not feel at liberty to give an opinion till this day se'nnight, when I should be at foil liberty to state my view of the subject. And although I do not feel that in asking the house to give the Annual Duties, I should in any degree preclede myself, or any other Member, from proposing alterations in Permanent Deties.yet Ham: Member think I am calling on him to pro nounce a decided opinion on what I was myself declining, should be sorry to put myself in that situation, and there fore I think it proper to abstain from bringing up the Re- port of those Resolutions. Mr. BRIGHT said he should be sorry to throw any inconvenience in the way. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the Report be brought up. He wished the house, in a Committee of Ways and Means, to vote in supply of the Consolidated Fund. Unless the house was disposed to give the means of meeting the Supply already voted, there would be some inconvenience. Mr. MABERLY thought the vote should be taken in the ordinary way. Mr. HUME was prepared to have the vote post poned. The votes consisted of Sugar, the duty on Rum, &c. He thought it all ought to stand over with the Sugar. Mr. BARING rose to pat a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the Hon. Member spoke in so low a tone, that we could only infer from the reply that it WAS in allusion to the office of Remembrancer to the Ex chequer. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thanked the Hon. Member for the opportunity be had given him of offering an explanation on the subject to which he had adverted. It was true that on the death of Mr. Steele, the late Itemembrancer, Mr. Vincent was appointed to fill the office, but the Hon. Member could not suppose that the tiovernment was so ignorant of its ditty, as not to pay due attention to the sense of Parliament upon the subject, ex pressed in an act condemning this office, providing for its abolition, and in fact changing the whole system of this department upon the death of the individual who then filled the office. In obedience to this act, only a few days had elapsed after the death of Mr. Steele, when the Lords of the Treasury took into consideration the means of carrying the wishes of Parliament into effect ; but it must be recollected that the law did not absolutely require the Lords of the Treasury to abolish or regulate the duties of this office, it merely provided that they should take into consideration whatought to be the' future emoluments of the person ap pointed to fill it. la pursuance of this law, the Lords of the Treasury called upon the Barons of the Exchequer, in their official capacity, to report the duties of the office. In the um time, before any new arrangement could be carried into effect, the duties of the office must be performed, and the immediate appointment of some person was therefore necessary ; but what alteration would be necessary, in Ti 1F S rATESM AN order to have the business of the office conducted ins man ner less expensive, and which mould be more conducive to the interests of the public, it would not now be easy to de tail. However for the due discharge of the duties of Re membrancer, some person should be appointed ; a nd, ac cording to the minute, Mr. Vincent, was therefore appoint ed on the '22d of December ; but care was taken that he should be precluded from having a deputy or appropriating to himself any of the fees legally due, it be ng provided that these were to be paid into the Consolidated Fund, and the Lords of the Treasury have reserved to themselves the consideration of what may he an adequate remuneration for the discharge of the duties of the office. He assured the House that he was most anxious that the office should un dergo some regulation, and be put on a less expensive foot ing. The present appointment was merely temporary, and Mr. Vincent was to have no additional claim in consequence to fill the office, in case the Lords of the Treasury should determine to continue it. Mr. RARING expressed himself satisfied with the ex planation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and hopeu that the Right Hon. Gentleman would take the means not only of lessening the expense of this office, but remedying the Exchequer altogether, and doing away with a great and unnecessary expense. He hoped that he would not continue so cumbrons,ridiculous and absurd a mode of keep ing accounts, which would be a disgrace to a tribe of In dian savages. The Report was then brought np, and the Resolutions read a second time. On the Resolution relating to half-pay and pensions being read, Mr. HUME gave notice that when this subject came to be farther considered, he would feel it his duty to propose that the law regarding poundage on pensions be abolished, and that a fixed sum be substituted. Two years ago he objected to this law, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer then said that he would alter it, but, none having since taken place, lie would feel it his duty to take up. the sub ject again. It purported to be a tax on pensions, but in its operation it was partial and useless, it being collect ed on only a sum of 300,0001. He hoped the Govern tnent would take the subject into consideration, and re medy the evil, or abolish the law, as only applying tJ minor offices. opinion, be impo3sihle to prevent it. He again repeated, that he wished to be informed what greater extent of coast was to be blockaded, and what portion of the 5,000 men were intended for the coast service. _ _ Sir 0. CLERKE said, that it was intended to have a greater extent of coast blockaded, as, notwithstanding the exertions of the preient commander, smugglinz was still successfully carried on. In the violent and bloody affair which took place on the coast of Kent, between the smug glers and the preventive service, the former made their last bold effort; and since that co-ist has been tolerably free from smuggling. In this Cautain M'Alullen had been so successful, that it was determined to extend the hl.ck ade from the coast of Sussex westward to the Isle of Sheppey, and that about six hundred seamen should be employed on this service under the same officer. No doubt, from the high duties which were unfortunately ne cessary, great temptation was held out to smuggling, and rigorous measures of prevention was therefore necessary, which the proposed plan would effect. Colonel DAVIES s.►id that the more effectual mode of preventing smuggling would be a reduction of the high duties. As long as these existed, so long would smug gling continue. The expense of its prevention now cost the country six or seven hundred thonsand pounds a-year, which, if applied to the reduction of the duties, would be more effectual in preventing smuggling than as it was now applied. In this there was no moral offence; and so long as a high premium was held out, whatever the risk was, there would he no possibility of preventing it. When the tinanciel concerns of the country would come under the consideration of the house, he would take the oppor tunity of adverting to this subject again. Mr. C. smiTit said a few words, which were inaudible in the gallery. Mr. HUME said that he saw no reason why any addi tion should be made to the navy. If ever a mischief pet - duced evil, it would be this, of combining the expense ne cessary for the defence of the country with that necessary to protect its revenue. No two questions were. more dis tinct. So far from its being useful to seamen for future oc casions to be employed on this service, none was more in jurious, because it lowered them in their own estimation, and they were under a more relaxed discipline than in the navy. He was anxious to know how much of the proposed vote was intended for the defence of the country, and how much for the prevention of smuggling. He would he glad to know whit was the effect of the duties on the coast of Ireland. because that would enable them to calculate how much they were to expect from future reductions. He would ask for what use twenty-nine thousand men were now to be raised? fir in 1517 and 1515, when a reduction of our naval force was urged, it was stated then by a No ble Lord, now no more (Lord Castlereagh), that we should recollect our situation, and not forget that the state of Europe was not yet settled, but as soon as it had assumed a more tranytil aspect, reductions might be more (tidy urged. Notwithstanding these hopes, they went on every year increasing, till our naval force now exceeded by twelve thousand :nen, what it had ever in the last peace. Last year also, there was an increase of four thousand men, and when an explanation for the necessity of such an increase was called for, it was replied that it was necessary for us to arm in consequence of the hostilities which were then likely to take place between France and Spain ; and no up. position was given to the vote. lint now that peace had arrived, that the affairs between France and Spain were settled, and the question respecting South America set at rest by the speech of the President of the United States, thanks to him and not to us ; for if we had had the man hood to speak out as he had done, we might have pre vented the peace of Europe from being disturbed. But England feared to break up the Holy Alliance, which was extending itsarbitrary arm over the world. Under these cir cumstances, what occasion could there be for an increase ? If his Majesty's Ministers had information, (though some times they were very deficient in it), that a force was pressing in Europe against South America, they ought to speak our, and nut increase their naval force under the pre tence of a blockade. He would. therefore, object to the vote, and the house ought, in his opinion, concur with him. Thoseavho boasted of the prosperity of the country, took great credit to themselves for remaining at peace, and they deserved it because there could be no doubt that peace was the interest of the country. Still if a state of defence was necessary, the country ought to assume it, and the real cause be avowed. Even without the pro used increase England had mare ships and (nen than any other, and no cause fur the increase could he shown unless danger weie apprehended front some quarter. To render the navy tormidable, something more than men was necessary. In its present state, good seamen were unwilling to enter it, because no man will change his situation, unless lie had a hope of bettering it. Formerly when any man entered the navy, no matter what situation he first tilled, lie had the hope of rising to the highest rank; and it was our boast, that while in Spain and France none could rise to naval command but those whose arms were embinaoned with hedges of nobility, in England any man might rise to the command of his national fleet. Now the case was altered, and an Order of Council, which he would read, was issued, preventing persons of certain classes from rising to a higher station in the navy. Was this the situation iii which the British navy ought to be? Was it such a state that raised it to its present preeminence? If twelve naval officers were selected, lie was satisfied that eleven out of the twelve would say, that the present would ultimately be its ruin. The Order of Council was issued in Its - 13, mud stated that no per son was rligibir to be a lieuteuaut, who was a first warrant master, or a second warrant master; in fact, that all masters, except the schoolwaster, who of course was uitacqtia!ntett with naval affairs, were excluded from being commanders. Lord Howe stated that he was much indebted far his successes to his masters. This was some proof of the ability of this class of men. and of their capability to coin:nand. Besides these grievances, it frequently happened that many young officers were promoted over the heads of old and experienced men.— ' Why should this system be different in the navy and the army 1 In the army a serjeant may rise to any rank ; and why nut a warrant officer iu the navy ?---Iu Iti22 our uaval force was 20,000 men, and a further increase was allowed under the pre tence of the peace of England being disturbed, till now, by an additio:al increase of 6000, it amounted to 29,000. 'Dwelt no 1 man was more anxious than he to see the navy the strongest arm of our defence, still, under its present system. he should oppose the proposed increase, One of the most objectionable parts of the system was, keeping men on board duriug their lives, and giving unfledged boys the power of flogging.—(An Hon. Member here intimated that Captains only had that ' power.)—Well, then, continued Mr. 11., it is all the same, for Captains are now as young as Midshipmen formerly were.— The Hon. Member concluded by protesting against any addi tional increase, and moved that, instead of 29,000 men. there be substituted 25,000. On this subject he was deter mined to take the sense of the house, even iftie were to di, ide alone, unless some better reason could be assigned for its necessity. On the amendment being read by the Chairman. Sir 0. CLERK E rose for the purpose of replying to the observations made by the lion. Member for Aberdeen, with regard to the opinion expressed by the House in the year 1817, on the maritime affairs of the nation. In his recollection there was but one sentiment in the House— not in that part, certainly, where the Hon. Member sat— that the naval force was then reduced too low, even lower than the period of 1792—that period to which the Hon. Gentleman so frequently referred.—(Hear, hear.) It was imputed to him that he had given no better reason for the present increased vote than the augmented coast Is'o,l ade, but the Hon. Gentleman must certainly base misun derstood hint. What he (Sir G. Clerke) relied on, in the course of his statement, was the unsettle,: state of the Spanish Colonies. and the necessity of a full and protect ing force to British commerce being maintains' in those s eas.—(Hear, hear.) In case hostilities took place between Spain and her Colonies, the interests of this country de manded that a sufficient force should be ready to protet t its commerce against those abuses which an infant belli gerent state might possibly commit. How ofte n I • been urged that the mercantile interests of the e ,,„,,, r ; should be protected in the South American se a , that purpose one or two ships had been sent out, an•l in that nearly the whole increased Etationve might !, accounted for. The Hon. Member had thought prop e r t. t speak of the character of the Navy being reduced than it was in the last war, and of the difficulty :here existed at present of procuring 3 -amen for our ships. It at the Hon. Gentleman might be assured there was no such difficulty or any delay in procuring. able and sa ev i eeatae men. In fact, there was no objection by qualified seam eo to enter the British Navy at present. Whatever pr, udices might have once existed, they were altogether rem se e d , and tile seamen were well aware of the improved condition of the service, and increased advantag e to them i n entering it. lie had talked nut only of th e o bjections to enter th e service, but the great hardship of detaining a man all his life in the Navy. But there again the inforsultion of the Hon. Gent. was deficient, as, in time of peace, seamen were enrtged but for three years.—(hear, hear.) —A rid if, ,lur ing a long and protracted war, the nrces,ities of th e country required a severe con rse, or compulsory measures, to man its shipping, the ex; go•ncy of the case Was the bra defence. However, as the Hun. Gentleman intimated hi; intention of submitting a special motion on the oft! • Navy, he (Sir 6. Clerk..) would not allude furth er io that topic at present. The Hon. Gentleman had r.ls st ate ,i that, by an Order in Council, seamen could not rise, as formerly, to the highest honours of the service. if the Hon. Gentleman read a little further he would find, in that same Order in Comma, a special exception for such 31 es ters as may distinguish themselves.—(Loud cheers There was no class of men more useful than Masters in the Navy, and it was accessary that the service should be always provided with a sufficient number of intellio‘et and experienced men in that rank. For that reason, per haps, s•.me restrictions were made to keep them in that situation ; but as the Order in Council provided, an es . eeption was always made fur such Masters as distinguisli r d themselves. Any man who entered the Navy as a fury.. mast man, had as good a chance now as he ever had of ad vancing himself. If he has chosen to prefer the rank of Master, be must see that promotion from that class , vas limited. With regard to tile next objection taken bv the Hon. Member, that Isis Majesty's ships were Intrusted to unfledged boys, the value of at might be ascertained fro m the fact that, by the late regulations, no premature prom. Lion could take place, as no Midshipman could be passel as Lieutenant under 19 years of age, and who had not served six years as a Midshipman. Whatever objections might have been urged formerly . on that head, with ap parent justice, they were totally inapplicable to the pr,. sent condition of the Navy. With regard to the com plaints of the Hon. Member, of old Officers being pat aside to make way for young men of rank and family, he would refer to the triumphant answer given t 3 a similar charge last year, by a Gallant Admiral near him (Sir George Cockburn,) Nothing inure need be said on that subject.-- (Hear, hear.) Mr. BEItNAL said, that he begged leave to disagree with the Right lion. Secretary in his opinion of the speech of the Gallant Admiral last year, to which he hail so hi umphantly alluded. And so far from it being approved of by the service, there was the greatest dissatisfaction ex pressed by all naval officers whose sentiments he bad the opportunity of hearing. With regard to the proposed amendment, however much he might approve of the gene ral conduct of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, and of his conduct in that House, as equally creditable to himself anti useful to the country (hear), and though he gene rally agreed with him, yet, on that occas'on, he would take the liberty of differing with him altogether. He thought him in error, and he could not help seeing signs which he considered as the forerunner of political dis agreement, particularly in the western hemisphere, and that our commerce and shipping were likely to be exposed to sudden convulsions, or be placed in a very doubtful and distressing situation. lie was convinced that the state of the West India Islands, and that of the South American Colonies, was such, that squadrons of observation should be maintained in the different seas. He was disposed for this time to trust something to the discretion of his Ma jesty's Ministers, and he hoped that they would use their power with moderation. The Navy should he always ap proached as a subject worthy of the greatest caution, and he treated with the greatest temperance. This was not the moment to go largely into the general question; but this he would say, that the seamen of the present dal were 20,000 times more comfortable than they were for . - nicely. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN would not appeal to either of the Hon. Members to know whether the speech which be had the honour of making to the House in the course of last session, was satisfactory or not to the officers in the service. There were several able and experienced officers in the house—if they were prepared to say that there was any thing in the remarks which he then made, which was disagreeable to the service generally, let them get up and assert it manfully. He him,. If was intimate with some of ficers of the service, and probably had as much experience to guide him, as to the general opinion of what lie then said, as either of the Hon. Members. What he then ad vanced, he now repeated, that while the road of promotion was kept open to merit and enterprise, however obscure tile station and origin of the parties, the navy wouid feel no jealousy whatever at seeing persons of rank and condi tion promoted amongst them. They were of use wherever they were placed. 'they were of use to the navy. They were of great use in that house.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition Benches.) The ships were as capable, and the officers, he would contend, were more capable than at any former period. There was a mischievous practice of those good old times to which the Hon. Member alluded, which now existed no longer,—of boys in their mother's drawing-rooms being put on a ship's book, and thus ser ving their time without ever being at sea; and it was in the memory of many persons, that in the American war, we had post-captains of 17 years of age. But now no man could be made post till he was of proper age. Then it was in the power of an admiral to make his son or his ne phew a lieutenant at 16 or 17 years of age ; but now there was a pointed and difficult examination to go through, and if the candidate was not sufficiently skilled in navigation to save the ship without the assistance of the master, he could not be made a lieutenant. With regard to the masters, of the impediments to whose promotion the Hon. Member complained, it was to be observed, that no officer could be come so at once; a lieutenant could not be made, nor pu llers or surgeons attain their respective ranks, without going through the previous steps in the royal navy bat a master, Ulm had sailed in a merchant ship and was compe tent, might be made a master at once; aid on that account it was thought but just that to that rank he should be re stricted, unless lie distingu:shed himself. With respect to discipline, the Hon. Member should not mislead the house by asserting that boys might flog the men ; was in the hands of the captain only; and as it was a po wer necessary, the house would see that it could not be lodg e d in more proper hands. S ir F. OMANEY defended the vote proposed, and ex pressed his intention of voting for it. that power Captain MA BERLY said, that when we were assured by his Majesty's speech, that our foreign relations acre never in a more pacific state, and when it that the late Span'sh Colonies of South America could not be reconquered by the mother country without foreign as sistance, he could not s e e with what face any honour able gentleman could justify the augmentation proposed on that grourd. An Hon. Mesin ER und er the gallery di (glared, that South A merica was the place w hi c h peculiarly r.quired an ad ditional force. wa s apparent Mr.HCME still maintained that the increase proposed rot's in their mother I book, and thus ser- g at sea; and it was in in the American war, age. But now no man proper age. Then it ake his son or his ne- of age ; but now there ion to go through, and drilled in navigation to u o ld f r o a f i t d h e t o m t a h s e t e m r , a s h t e e ri co , on the Hon. Member hat no officer could be- not be made, nor par- ective rank', without the royal navy ; but a it ship and was compe- u; and on that account rank he should be re- sell. Witb respect to not mislead the house the men ; that power and as it was a power it could not be lodged rote proposed, and ez- . 'hen we were assured oreign relations sere wasrhenitcould o appareont nib America t y withoutany honourableforeiga a tation proposed on th at ry di elared, that So uth arty required an ad - face ad - the increase proposed • SUPPLY. On the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moving ; the Order of tau• Day fur the house resolving itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. HUME said that, seeing one of the Lords of the Admiralty in his place, l►e rose to call his attention to a petition which he had to present, front an individual who stated that a new disease had crept into the Navy, the dry rot—and that many ships—the Lord Howe, the Nei son, and the Queen Charlotte—were now infected with it. The petitioner particularly called the attention of the Ad miralty to this subject, and to adopt some means to pre vent its effects, which in time would completely destroy our Navy. In fact, half the Navy were now injured by this disease, and yet no remedy has been discovered. The petitioner, Mr. liurridge, prayed that a general survey of the Navy may be taken, and that the real state of the fleet be seen. This disease was the cause of great expense, and many ships were now unlit for sea, though they had never been on service. It was therefore right that the public should know what the Admiralty have done to avert this evil. It was a true remedy which was adopted last year by the use of coal tar, but this, he understood, was only productive of more injury. It was known that, up to a certain period, the oak of England was never subject to this disease. Yesterday l►e ascertained that the American oak, if felled when the sap was dried, never rotted in ships; but if, on the contrary, this oak was felled when the sap was wet, and the bark on, it was subject, he was told, to the same disease which now infected our ships. The petitioner has written a treatise upon this disease; whether his plan was good or bad he did not know, but, at all events, it called for the serious attention of the house. The lion. Member then moved that the Petition be brought up. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER asked the Hon. Member, if it would not answer as well to bring up the petition at some other time, perhaps when the vote would be proposed? Mr. HUMP: replied, that he was not aware that he was mistaken in formality of presenting the petition, as be had previously consulted with some of his Hon. Friends. However, he had no objection to consent to its post ponement on the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. NAVY ESTIMATES. Si; a CLERKE said, that though he was aware it was usual to confine himself to the wear and tear part of Cie service, and not to go into the ordinary estimates, yet, as they were prepared exactly as the ordinary esti mates of the last year, he hoped there would be DU objec tion to his proceeding to that part of the supply on the present occasion. Notwithstanding the reduction that had taken plac-, it was found necessary to make a small addi tion to our naval force this year, which would cause an in crease of expenditure in this department of about 320,000/. And he hoped no objection would be taken to this increase, as it was, if any thing, rather small, considering the neces sity there was now fur protecting our commerce, which had extended itself to every part of the world. He hoped the house would still further justify this increase, when it was considered that owing to the exertions of our naval commanders in the West Indies, all piratical depredations were prevented. The house should also not forget the un settled state of our West India colonies, which required the protection of some naval force, and it any part was with drawn from the protection of our commerce, the pirates would again appear in the South American Seas. A con siderable naval force was also necessary in the Mediteri a nean, in consequence of the unsettled state of affairs be tween the Greeks and Turks. Under these circumstances, he should find himself under the necessity of proposing a vote of 29,000 seamen, which would be an increase of 3.000 over that of last year. Besides the necessary increase of expenditure from an increase of force, there would be also a casual increase from the rise of provisions since last year. But though it would be necessary to maintain a larger na val force on foreign stations, from the extension of our commerce, particularly on those stations where provisions are dear, still the increase of expenditure will not bear an accurate proportion to the present increase of force. He would now take the opportunity of alluding to the petition of Butridge. It is true the dry rot had crept into the navy, particularly during the war, which could not be well pre vented from the baste with which ships were built, and timber obliged to be cut down. But from the precautions now taken to cutting the timbers, and other means, parti cularly that of using coal tar, which, not . ithstanding what the Hon. Gentleman had said, he, from personal obser vation, made in the company of an individual who bad paid great attention to this subject, knew greatly tended to counteract the evil, and also from the immersion of timber in salt water for souse time before it was used, he had no doubt, the disease would be completely removed. The Hon. Member concluded, by proposing a vote of 29,000 seamen, for thirteen lunar months, from the Ist of Jan. 1824, including 9,000 Royal marines. Mr. WARD rose, to request the Hun. Gentleman wou'd supply him with some information upon the subject, of which he was yet ignorant. He apprehended th it a por tioc of the increase of seamen, was destined for the blockade service, and this service appeared to be the prin. cipal ground of this increase. He did not wish to re vive this subject, but no case could justify such as increase. but hard necessity, in a time of peace. At present. 1700 men were employed ou the coast service, and yet a further increase was called for. Now be wished to know what greater extent of coast was to be protected, and if ander the same commander who now had one ship in the Downs, and whose seal and energy were well known. As long as the duty was so high on several a r ticl e s, and so large a premium held out to smuggling, it would, in his IN w 1 P 4'l