The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-05-19 00:00:00

••---- eartberowara, residing in the County of Stafford, com plaining that he was attacked on the eveningrof the lath of August, 1819, at Manchester, by a Yeomanry Soldier, and wounded in the head, although he (the Pe titioner) had not attended the Meeting of that day. — Ordered to Boon the table and be printed. Mr. BENNET moved for a Return of all Members of the House holding offices on the Ist of May, 1911. (h dared. A Message from the Lords announced their Lard ships' Assent to several Bilk. Mr. D. GILBERT presented a Pet i tion ff or an rom cerlter tain Inhabitants of Betbnal-green, prayng a atiou of the law respecting the management of the pub lic roads. The Honourable Member expressed his wish to bring the Metropolis Road Bill under the immediate a ttention of the House, if he should be allowed to do so. Mr. H. GURNEY spoke against the Bill. The Petition was received, and ordered to lie on the II table. A conversation then followed as to the time for bringinr on the Metropolis Road Bill, hut The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the flay for the House resolving itself into a Cornniittee of Ways and Means. Mr. HUME expressed his intention on the second ' r eading of the Spoiled Stam p s Bill, to move a claus e ! for reducing the per tentage allowance to the country commissioners. He therefore wished to know when the Bill would be brought forward. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that iu the present state of pubc businss, be was u nable to say when the Bill co u ld come on for di, et-ision. Lord MILTON begg ed the llentlemen of the lauded interest would attend to this Bill, whirls, pro fessing to rive relief in Spoiled Stamps, imposed ad ditional ditties. The House then resolved into a Committee. The CHAIRMAN put a q uestion for applying the utitlaioted Dividends in the Bank to the public service, ,•rscept a sum of 100,001. which was always to remain. Mr. IiRF.NFELL called the attention of the House to the large balance of the public money remaining in the band:. of the Batik. It hail been upwards of four h. •t year, and vas likely to be as much the presetit yaar. The loss to the country was at least 141040,001. Ile entreated the attention of Isis Majesty's liovertituent to the sehject, for he really could lay no Maine upon the haul;. Mr GARING said he had no connection with the Bank. yet he could not but dither from his lion. Friend on this subject of the public balance. The retenti its of the balances was stipulated on ti,e renewal of the Char ter of the Bank. It would appear by the correspond ence which had taken place some years since between Pitt slid the then 6ovei nor of the Bank, that the retention of the public balances by the Bank was then t.,hen into consideration. The Bank bad paid for the advantage, and he trusted the House in justice would Lat deprive them of it, notwithstanding the continued ht,tailitv of his lion. Friend against the Bank, in the tiettse of which hostility his lion. Friend too often 11. A into unintended misrepresentation. Mr. OR EN FELL , in explanation, observed, that lie Lad expressly stated he laid no blame upou the Bank in this respect. He was aware of the situ ation of the Government with the Bank, probably as wall as his I ton. Friend. The same argument urged his Lion. Friend had been urged by the Bank Direc ti, s whets the balance was as large as twelve millions; et would his Hon. Friend contend that the balances 0:.41it never to be reduced? He repeated that at a Cioe whet tome of the Public Departments were rais- 1 ing money on Exchequer Bills to go on, it was highly it. 0: over to suffe, these large balances to remain in hands of the Bank ; and he trusted the Chancel hat of the Exchequer would turn his attention to the st.h;ect. Mr. BARING explained. His object was merely tt,4liew, that the Bank bad given an equivalent for the a•'ealitage of which his lion. Friend wished them to ba deprived. Mr. 11l ME said, that from the line of argument ta!:ea by his lion. Friend (Mr. Baring) one really ttould suppose his Honourable Friend, the Member Penryo (Mr. Gretifell) proposed to work some an'l that, too, upon a pour Company. This boor Company divided 26 millions since the year 1796, exclusive of its ordinary dividend of 7 per cent. He toonglit there was no necessity fir leaving so large a balance as four millions in the hands of this Company, especially as the agreement alluded to by his lion. Vriend did not engage for any specific balance. lad ie vas sorry his Honourable Friend (Mr. Baring) h read a lecture against economy. Mr. CALL: RAFT said there was no analogy between tl.e case of the Bank and that of a private Banker. — The latter derived his protit for his trouble from ba lances left in his hands, but the Bank were paid no less than 270,0001. a year for managing the public businese.—(Hear, hear.) —A million would lie thought Le a very liberal balance to leave in their hands. The motion was then a s creed to, and the House re solved itself into a Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved a Resolution for the issue of certain Exchequer Bills to carry on the public works. Sir J. NEWPORT complained of the conduct of the Irish Commissioners, who had neglected to make a re turn of the rules by which they were guided. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERelefend ed the C o mmissioners, who, he said, were most honour able men. Sir J. NEWPORT d isclaimed any a ttack upon their private character. Ile knew them to be most respect &hie men, and Isis remarks affected their public con duct only. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex plained. Mr. S. RICE said, that in consequence of the se . glect referred to, Ireland had not derived that advan tage from the late legislative measure which was in tended by the Ministers and that House. He had no complaint to make of them as individuals, except that of indolence. After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 'lse motion was agreed to ; as was another for 500,0001. u an advance to the Bank of Ireland. • The House then resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Wedues• day next. AN .T The Geller of the Day was then moved, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. On the question being put, Mr. CHEWING rose.—ln the present distressed state of the coutitry, a distress amounting almost to confiscation, lie could not' refrain from calling` the the a ttention of the House to t hat distress, and forcible yet respectable Petitions from the people, imploring that 'louse to endeavour to remove it. — From the beginnio_; of the present Session every at tempt to reduce the public expenditure had failed. — Gut al:hough th , se attempts had failed, he was con vinced they would ultimately work a practical benefit, for they had led to the exposure rif the grossest abathe ses in tho Public Depart m ents. Such, however, was present state of the country, that many able men be lieved that r eform must take place within, or Revolu tion %timid conic from without. If estimates like the present wrin brought forward in another year, he thought the country might be expected to say as an Illustrious Personage was reported to have said, on seeing the brad of Charles I. held up, when the coffin of that 7ihonart lo nas opened at Witidsor—" Take it away, it is too lisurillole to he looked upon." So con vinced was he of the necessity of regulating the ex peutlitot; e of the c ~tontry by principles of the must rigid economy, Coat he fur one, though by no means desirous of I log;:in,.; the machine of Government, would he content to remain in that house till Christ. was, rather than tun rut to lode away one shilling of the public money. mote than was absolutely necessary. If it should appear that 'Alinisters after all their pro fri.:Lion of anxi-tv to relieve the people, bad made no reduction in the public e xpenditure, there was no saying to what extremities the sufferers might be driven. lie had but lately come from the country, and from all that he load seen, and all that he had heard, he was ram ineed that unless some relief were afforded to the middling classes, that most respectable and very useful body, the yeonsanry of England wocld he at an end. He belieted that there was not an individual in the realm who would not wil lingly give all that t uuld with justice he required of him, to support the dignity of the Crown, and to meet the exigencies of the State. But in times like these their mover ought not to be lavished away on useless sinecures nil lac-laud, and dumb-lords of the Admi ralty, and nll other officers that were not really wanted. While s..ch proteetlings were continued, he could not be surprised at finding that they created a strong sen sation of dissatisfaction and disgust. Ile concluded h} moving a. an a mendment, that all the words of the original moduli should be °emitted after the word " that," for the - • wrds, hat "it he an instruo t, that duly taking i n to cono; 1-essd state of the country , system of 1 11 s e same t: the mast rigorio c be elf, deli with , sal interests of the Statr." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had nothing to offer in opposition to the general principle on which the amendment was founded, but be denied that such au io.struetion to the Committee was neces sary, bveause he denied that there had been any ne glect of economy. Mr. MABERLY thought those reductions had not been made which the country had a right to expert, since after all they had beard of a diminution of ex penditure to the amount of 2,000,0001. it appeared that the present estimates only fell short of those of ISII, by about 400,000/. He se c onsidered it ring strums - s t ru ns that now in time of peace, an expen 17,000,000/. should be incurred for the Government of die Countty to maintain a laud Nice of 110,000 men. The present situation and prospects of the country called for economical measures. He did not doubt but if proper exertions were made, a saving of 4,000,01101. might be effected in the course of the year. This would conciliate the people, and tend t o place the finances In that sound state, in which every friend to his country would wish to see : them. But the Reform slionlal begin at the head, and go dowc wards, and before the lower classes were called upon to retrench, his Majesty's Ministers would do well to set the example, and in his opinion, his Majesty him self. He reminded Ministers of the plan Mr. Pitt had formerly devised, for relieving the country of the i r National Debt, complained that it had been departed from, and strongly insisted on the necessity of adopt ing a em of the must iigisaitd economy. Lors yst d LON ItON DERRY l, these discussion s en abled Gentlemen to make large assertions, which they', could not justify in the Committee. For example, the, lion. Co.ntlrinati had stated that the public expenditure' of 17 millions, of which five millions were dead ex pense, being altogether remuneration for past services, and might then( fore be called 12 millions, might be reduced by four m i l lions ; that is to say, that the Go vernment of this immense empire could be conducted for eiht mi Ge llions. m h This was so m onstrous that te Honourable ntle a n would not have hazar ded it in a Committee. Mr. MABERLY said, the Noble Lord had imputed to him a gross blunder. He had never put the wh le ex pense of the empire at 17 millions, hat the military ex penditure only.—(Hear.) —Besides these 17 millions, there were four millions of the Civil List, the Miscella neous Estimates, and Payments out of the gross Reve nue. The tednction must be spread over the whole expenditure. CALCR AFT said, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Maberly) so far from having feared to advance his opinions in a Cvmmittee, had stated them over and over again without being refuted. The reason for a motion sorb as the present was, that when they got into the Committee any benefit was hopeless ;--they had moved reduction after redaction, and not a shilling', had been reduced. The Honourable Gentleman who made the motion wa s deservin g of thanks, as wel ll the substance of it as for the manner in which proposed it. Mr. HUSKISSON said the Hon. Gentleman (Mt. Calcraft) proceeded upon the usual assumption, that all reason was on the side of the minority and none's* the side of the majority, but the Hou. Gentleman was the less entitled to speak on the subject as be had 141 dom attended to hear them. The Civil List, the Gentleman must recollect, was voted for the life it the Sovereign, and therefore, did not admit of sudden reduction, though no doubt, it was competent for Par liament to hold a check over it when aid was applied for. The Estimates were Li million below those of the preceding war, and great efforts wen made to redoes' the expense of the collection of the revenue. Lord .0 ' b ...ate, adverting to ....metal side, that the present nomical as conld he devised, mates brought forward precious . prope rty tax, were said, by the Secretary at . sr, the most moderate that could be proauced ; and yet When that tax was repealed, Estitnites much more mo derate than those " most moderate,' were almost itn mediately laid before the House. An effect quite similar would, be bad no doubt, ht. produced by a Resolution of the House to discountenance the present Estimates, by adopting the amendment —that amendment would how ever, he feared, meet the fate that was anticipated from the present state of the House, for how many placemen were there to vote as the Minister pleased. He did not mean to object to the presence in that House of such place:nen as the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or other principal otfi , :ers of the Government, who, if not in the other House of Parliament, ought, in his judgment, to have seats in that House; hut to those Gentlemen who were to be seen be. hind or about the Treasury Bench, ready to vote accord ing to the will of those who occupied that Bench. As to the language which bad been so much animadverted upon on the other side, he was glad to hear such lay guage from the side which he bad the honour to sup.' port ; for this language, which implied nothing more tLan this, that the redress of grievances should go based in ham' with the grant of supplies. That was the len guage of the hest men in that House, as well as that of the "louse itself, in the 17th century, and of every good period since; and be could not see why such `ag e lua age should net he applaude d in the 19:11 c entury, ht was said that the country was so much enlightened upon principles of constitutional justice. With respect to the, danger of revolution, which appeared to alarm seine gentlemen ou the other side, their alarm appeared to be very much misapplied. There was, iso doubt, a revolu tion going on, but it was a revolution in property ; and it was to be apprehended, from the progress of this re volution, that the middle classes would soon be swept away—that indeed there woolsl he no class in the coun try but the very rich and the very p oo r, namely, the v e ry great capitalists , and those who subsisted upon them. Yet no measure appeared to he in contensplatioa for averting such evils; but be was disposed to attribute the conduct of Government, even extraordinary as it was, to its utter disacquaintance with the real condition of the country . Mr. 111:31E contended the House kid a right to look at the Civil List when no aid was called for, and he hoped hsfore a yea r had p assed away, the House %%mild review the Civil List; for if ever a House of Commons had neglected its duty, lie thought the pre sent House of Commons had done so, in granting so extravagant a Civil List as that which they bad sanc tioned. The 870,0001. voted for the Civil List in the present reign, was equal to 1,41111,11001. when the Civil List was first placed on its present footing. He censured the extravagance of Ministers, and hoped the Hon. Gentleman would persevere in the amend ment be had moved, Mr. HUSKISSON explained. The House divided, For the Amendsueut .. • ........... • • 4O Against it Majority in favour of the original motion —l5 When strangers were readmitted the House was in the Committee of Supply. Mr. It. WARD moved the follow ing grant :-14,63151. for tit:. pay of the Civil Officers and Clerks of the Ordisasice Establishment on Foreign stations. Mr. HUM E had only to object to this resolution, that all the establishments bad been nearly doubled since 1 He described the additions which had taken place at Malta, Barhadoes, Ceylon, the Cape of Good Hope, and Heligoland. The Storekeeper at the last %motioned place had been ordered to be reduced a year ago, but the order bad not been carried into effect. Ile received a salary of 2381. and his only duty was to take charge of the powder there, and to lire the morning and evening gun. Before we took possession of that island, it was held by a Serjeant's party. When it became ours, it was garrisoned with 50 men. The isonsher had been gradually increased to Ii), and a short time ago he found that 1110 men were stationed there. It DOW cost the country annu ally 10,000 f. which was more than the fee simple of the whole island. He considered the charge more Heli goland the most extravagant uf all, ansl the so, as the Storekeeper, Mr. Artnstrong, hail passed six uso nths of the last year its England. Ile concluded by prop sing a reduction of 25 per cost. on the grant, and accordingly moved as an a mendment, that the sum of 10,9731. should be substituted for the sous which had originally stood in the resolution. Mr. WARD ohsetved, that as the Honourable Member had pronounced the proposition as to Heligo land to be the most extravagant of all, he must con ceive that sort of denunciation to be an implied eulo ginm upon all the other grants proposed. The Hon. Nlesuber had observed, that all the grants for the se veral colonial officers and clerks were doubled in the estimates on the table, but the fact was, that they were doubled only on paper, as the several officers were, upon this advance, deprived of certain perqui sites and etnolunsents, which they and their predeces sore had received for a series of years. It was, for instance, the practice of those officers to draw rations for the subsistence of themselves and their families, which were paid for at the public expense. But this practice was now abolished. That abolition must considerably reduce the revenue of storekeepers, as well as that of others, and the proposed advance was but a small compensation for that diminution. As to Ceylon, it should be considered that if the grant to that island was trebled the establishments there were trebled also. Then as to Malta, the grant could not be deemed excessive, when it was recollected that if the fortifications of that garrison were in a line, they wouli extend to 50 miles, while there were no less than 600 pieces of cannon there. With respect to Heligoland, nothing was proposed for onr establish ment there that was not deemed absolutely necessary, and as to the remark of the Honourable Gentleman that there were only a few soldiers in that island before it came into our possession, that could be deem-1 ed no criterion of its consequence, for Gibraltar had only 700 soldiers in the garrison at the time it was originally taken possession of by our forces. The Honourable Member concluded with deprecating the Amendment, as every practicable reduction bad been made in the estimates before they were submitted to the House. Mr. BENNET said the Hon. Gentleman had made it appear because certain persons bad been robbing the ebuntry for a number of years; that when that robbery was found out and put down, compensation must be given. He would toll the lion. Gentleman a story. — The Magistesees et . Ilidalesez found on one occasion tht Celdbatk-Gelds prison was beset by the greatest number of improper visitants that ever blockaded the k v i I those who wished to go into prison to the sitting M e . gistrate, receiving a tee from each applicant, and th e , such members were daily sent. When this wai f ou l out the practice was put an end to hot the clerk claims compensation alleging that Lis predecessor had enjoyed the same privilege and emoluments. He appealed to high authority on the occasion, but the answer gle es to the appellant was, " You sha'n't have compensation.' Had he belonged to the Ordnance Department, th em stilt of such an application might have been difirrest_ lie then complained of the system acted upon i n „ 1 , colonies—of the provision wade for needy N e hai l ,. and of the wanner in which the public ntoney w eemm . away in that House by Pl:lcemen. The House an.l to„ l'outitre ought to be told, that out of 65 pere hi : u . voted on the opposite side of the House, $0 were `.`',.at. men. The public pocket bad been picked, and t hi n: , had transpired within those walls, in the ennrse tt „. present Session, which any body but that llo:Ise milli have been ashamed of. Mr. K. WARD said be should confine himself 0 1 single observation, for the sake of Gentlemen 0)1 wc: quite as honest and respectable as any lion. Geminate opposite. He had neither used the word tohherv, puted to him by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, nor ley admitted that ally abuse existed. • The fact was, the the officers were authorised to receive the rations .. perquisites by public documeer s, which esitted subs; ago as the year 1756. Ile could not hot regret that Honourabl?llentlemen opposite should avail thentsein. of their privilege, as Members of that House, to liar. der individuals oho had no means of answering tie charges which were brought against them. Mr. 6. lIKN\ET maintained, that if the Aim drew rations, which they had no right to draw, at tile public expense, it was in effect a robbery, and the word was very properly used. If they were authorisei to do so by warrants from Government, then Choreic. anent, and not the officers, were the robbers. Mr. R. IVARD repeated that it was no abler at al, nasninch as they were fully authorised to receive the ►atim•ns. Mr. J. SNiall hoped the Honourable Gratleans opposite would give lime explanation of the combat of the individuals of whom the flua. :%.lember for rnleen lwions re Y I:• ausn • t : l d : n e di uc not i , that tkd u he' r e a ct b ll le ea rg b ge f e e lmi neturviniailml sweeping ei p ter t p n b !s na i gat made Ise d: then repeated the charges he bad made relative Mi. Pennant, of Sheerness, and others. That Gentlest possessed a large income, yet lie took away coals at wood from the public store in violation of the ordenti the Board of Ordnance. Ile witlued to ask the lie. Gentleman (Mr. Ward) a question, and he hoped tlist instead of going to another subject, as he usually he wssoild give him a direct answer—he wished to kam whether the store-keeper of Heligoland had been el during the last year' The establishment at Mein * cost 11,000/., a sum which ought to be rebated *- fourth. Mr. W. SMITH observed, that when tie ape 0 (;0041 Hope was in the possession of the not cost the Gorernment of Holland a Now if the Dutch could make their colony self, though they had to contend agaiust a time power, surely ii. ought to be inquired Civil and Military Departments of the I source of so much expellee to this country Mr. R. WARD said, it was a fallacy to Dutch kept the Cape against a superior i seeing that we had taken it from them. to the statement of the Honourable Aberdeen, be begged to observe, that hall not been suspended from any cow milt, but merely because that was thu pending an inquiry into the condo officers by their superior officers. TI inquiry was a complete acquittal. I the officers had converted the wood ti. but it appeared that they had umisunderstm of the Board of Ordnance, and coiice wood was a perquisite which still rem wa: no ground whatever fur a charge Some irregular appropriations had and they arose from very ridiculous to he ascribed to any thing rather thai dishonesty So much fur Sheerness, to Fevershani, charges had certain!; against the Storekeeper. amounting for having purloined timber and other and for returning false vouchers. Member complained that no inquiry for six months, bat if be haul been respondence which took place previot , he would have found his (Mr. R. W been sufficiently filled up. snored, that because the charges clerk was dismissed ; he Mr. (Ward; that there was not a Member in that dividual in the country who could bet ons a charge : and if the Hon. Or were so constructed as to come to sot lie (Mr. W.) would not consent to eum nication with such a mind.—(A lam Gent. had been totally misinformed, evidence was worse than he had evei court of justice. With regard to the vouchers, the acts were these; there • of the worktuen employed in the I Irdi the vear,with the character and des..r so n annexed to his name. I.;pon tun establishment, the pay of the Warder, shillings and sixpen ce a Jar. was !l o gs and four-pence a day, due pay The storekeeper haul neglected to t " warder" opposite his name, after he s g e r r o i putnido ofo of thee labour ingeharge that the whole charge was false, groum nant, and the Master-Oeneral had vised to dismiss the man who made T in h a e n , snit Mr. HUME said, that the Hon. witted that there was pilfering of woad. defended it was neither more nor encoura gement to all other ptlferer'. Mr. NARKS thought that sufficient been paid to what fell from the Hunuum Norwich, re)ative to the Cape of trand Member then Pole sow obserroloos upon the I Ito . i . U. t 1 • 1 ; ' il \ imrpose of adding these w u•tiuu to the said Committee, t.itlcration the present distil they proceed to enforce a economy, as far as the iuut injury to the substanti. „ .. to the stateornts on the gates of a jail , and all came with Ilagiatrates' order s .nt Estimates were as eco- to see their friends ‘, ho were confine& On enquiri r; observed, that the Esti - how chi:, happened, it appeared that there was a cle ric - boos to the repeal of the at on , o f the pol:re offices, who handed the names 0 : ,0 Si*Eretarr at War, to be those who wished to to into prison to the sittitn,, M. IC Datth, , a siegle Ober, luny support pet i` a superior won- NI into, why ti tin e Cape wen t a p try. to argue that& maritime poen ar 1 . With af le Member it t A hat the inviction of to lie usual coo duct of idol 'he result di It was tree it to their meow. lerstood dos wit iceived that tit 1 tutained. Tien e of per ulatio s.-- 1 been commit*, causes, het or tan to the soorrO , and with lv been prof almost to fella er public prope r The bloomy* r had taken # aware of the aas to the isgail. Ward's) tim e 0 1 Hon. Maier Si' wen pro was was ro' it House, or am it ielieve so roe! Gentleman's mini 4 rich a conduit- w tiiter into cools langh.)—The I, be a persoo* lo er seen gives is .he charge of 41 0 re were three 10 Irdnance printea ..riptiuu of esti r lie rei luctiou of 61 er, *who rec ired tito r educed to mesh.' of a labouring wg. strike out the el' Ise came under tit°. td this was tits n• ~,missioners repos.: roundless, aod 04; accordingly beet e it. si' Gentleman had wood, and 00_1, less thin holding"" os, hai o tient attention t u oi F ed us Hope 1 o n I ,b e 11 c on gm V MOM diture i e l t he gam gr. 1 b e au patch !et her. than de key. al 119 t 1 001 VS SIN Mr. The tikittec , jooceel honey teem t sybteir Lot tyou ;11r M' isat oz 51 tlirr int al cr , lll tio.ul luid tLe fore P': Po ti • pan A p. , " ?