The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-06-29 00:00:00

After a Per observations from him, Mr. tioaDoro, Mr. lavixo, Mr. 6KFICPELL, and Lord Bmerso, e ahe House again divided upon the emended Resolution For the Amended Resolution, 41.—Agaitmst it, 12. Majority, 29. Several Resolutions were then agreed . to without discussion. Upon the Resolution for defraying the expense of clothing, &c. for convicts, Mr. HUleflg made some inquiries relating to the con tracts for clothing. Mr. CLIVE could not then answer the Hon. Gent. but wonld do so upon a future occasion. Mr. 11U 31E said, he had no wish to give any unne cessary trouble ; but as it was the duty of the House to make itself acquainted with all the tircumstances, he begged to propose that the vote should be post poned until to-morrow. Mr. H. CLIVE said, that the clothing was provided at the lowest possible rate. It was contracted for by tender. Mr. HUME said, that the Contractors met in pri vate, agreed to a farthing in their tenders, and then shared" the order between them. The contract, be thought, ought to he made by a public open tender. Mr. ARBUTIINO T then agreed to the postpone molt until to-morrow (this, day.) The Resolution for 3,000/. for the National Vaccine, Establishment Was then agreed to. The Resolution for 100,0110/. to meet Bills drawn, or to be draWn from New South Wales, was then put. Mr. BENNET said, that the snm actually wanted , was always larger than the vote, sometimes by -19 or 50,0001. lie thought it fairer that the exact sum should be stated in the first instance. Mt. (lOU LBURN said, be had himself made the loose observation last year, and that arrangements were now making to the effect suggested by the Hon. Member. • Ihe Resolution was then agreed to. The next Resolution for 90,532/. for confining, maintaining, and employing Convicts, was then agreed to witimont any observation. The next Resolution was for 69,415:. to meet the deficiencies of the Tee rand. M. HUME thought, that in subsequent years the items of this resolution should be taken separately. lie trusted the Right Honourable Gentleman would agree: with him. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, there would be no objection to alter the Resolution of future yerir-, so as to skew the real expense of the Es tablishment. Mr. HUME, in explanation, said, that the accounts Mere kept very irregularly ; and his object was, that they shunld he siinplified. This Resolution was then agreed to. The following Resolutions were then agreed to; 5e,0051. for Messengers' hills; 19,053/. for Salaries of the Officers of the two Houses of Parliament : and i.::,h00/. for Secret Services. The next Resolution n as for 25,000/. for Entraordi .ry Expenses of the Mint. 51r. 111:31E oished to know whether this sum Was for the F.stabliAmment of the 51iiii ? Mr. ARIXIIINOT said, it was to defray the ex pense of a n-w Coinage for the present year. The estimated expense was 75,0001., but of this 50,000/. was in li Ind. Mr. HUME said, he bad not found any charge for the ordinary expenses of the Mint. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said they were permanently provided for by Act of Par liament. '1 his 'Resolution was then agreed to. A Resolution fur 21,000/. for printing Acts of Par liatnent for the use of Sheriffs and other Public Officers MIS next a greed to. The next Resolution proposed was for 3,500/. for r intin g the Jonrnals of the House. Mr. HUME said he knew persons who would print t':in at an expense less by 1,5001. than the sum pro posed, and in a manner no way deficient from the pre sent. Ile thought the public benefitted by competition, unit lie should propose a reduction of 1.500/. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said that as the lion. Member bail promised his assistance in a Committee for consider ing expenses of this description, he trusted the reduc tion would not be pressed. There was every disposi tion to review these expense'. Mr. RENNET said it was the ditty of Govern ment to exert themselves and nut call upon the Mem bers of time House to exert theme' ••• like Clerks in tie performance of that which was paid tar to Public UtF , cers. Alter a few words from Mr. A tat xier, The SPEAKER begged to address the House, in dividually, on the present question. The work pro vided for by the present vote was carried on under the direction of time Speaker, upon whose certificate the charge was paid, after being examined as to its amount. . The charge was always m ore than the vote, the latter • lasing merely a payment on account. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that after the explanation which had been given by the Chair, only one wind was necessary. It was clear that this vote mieht pass with secority, as the necessity of a further vote might be discussed in the proposed Committee. Mr. h. SUMXgR said, the observation of the lion. mber that the Members of the House were made the Clerks of Government, was perfectly inapplicable to the present question. This seas precisely the case in which time Government bad no right to interfere, and which might be usefully discussed in & Committee. He was himself of opinion that there .was much prodi gality in this branch of public expense. Mr. BENNE I' explained. Mr. 111:51E said, that with respect to the expenses of printing and stationary the liovernatient might save one half if they seriously endeavoured to do so. The Resolution was then agreed to. The next Resolution was for 3,500/. for printing the Votes of the !Lome. Mr. BENNET said that some years since it was a practice to distribute the printed Votes among Mem bers. From a mistaken economy this practice bad been discontinued, and the Votes were now sold. They were expensive, and he for one was too poor to buy them. He spoke as a poor man himself; and if he ries rich he should still think it Isis dote to Make the observation for the benefit of others. Many or these Votes from the beginning were yet on hand, aud . he thought they ought to be distributed. 'He ictiew not whether there had been any partial distribution ; but E sTA he Conceived hinsselt to Ipe ash mach entitled to as any one else. After a few words from Mr. 11. Semstert and (we • believe) Sir .1. aa on mast as, The SPEAKF,It said that the early practice was to distribute the Votes in order that they might be pre served. This was arranged by the Record Commi s ' , sion, of which the Speaker nos always a Member. — The progress of completing the work 'however was found to be so slow and expensive, and not attended I with adennate advantage, as it was observed that many ! volune-s were exposed for wile in different parts of London. In 1`417- therefore, the arrangement was loitered, and 5(11 only instea.l of I Ton) we re pr imed, — These trete sold, and the sale, which at first was very slow, had considerably improved. The diifienlty would be, to begin the work of printing de ;tom • Mr. BENNET thanked the Speaker for his inform- ation, and said be should think of some plan, by which the Members of the House might be accommodated. Mr. HOME observed that the House had just passed a large Resolution for printing the Votes. A desultory conversation followed between Mr. H. GURNEY. the SPEAKER, Mr. BUTTLRWOBTH, Mr. HUME, and Mr. A:WI:TH:4OT. Mr. HUME wished fur an Account of the F.xpenses incurred in printing Seotch Records 'of thie last ten years, and Mr. ARBUTHNOT promised to obtain and pro duce such an Account. The Resolution was then agreed to. The following Resolutions were then agreed to :- 20,000/. for printing Bills and Reports of the House, 3117/. for re-printing them, and ttoool. for American Loyalists. A Resolution for 3000/. for re-printing the Journals was next proposed. Mr. 111.* ME repeated hi. observation, that they could be properly printed fur hell this money, and be trusted the Right lion. Gent. would attend to any offer that might be made on the subject. Mr. ARBUTHNOT assured the lion. Member such an offer should meet with every sttentiou. This Resolution was then agreed to. Oa a Resolution being proposed for 3000/. for con fining Criminal Lunatics, Mr. HUME said, he believed several individuals were confined who were perfectly sane. Ile particularly alluded to the case of an individual named Macintosh, who had been tried for forgery, anti aennittell on the ground of insanity. Ile bad since been declared sane by the Physician., and had petitioned the !louse, and applied also very freTtenily to the Ilotne Department. The man certainly wrote too midi, but the efteorthes seritendi was surely no ground for keeping him in con finement. The lion. Member referred also to the case f Hatfield, who had attempted the life of his late Ma-1 jesty ; and bad since been considered as sane. lie (Mr. Hum) thought the House ought not to vote money for confining persons who should be allowed to return tol society. Mr. IiF.NNET defended the ronduct of liorernweent. Most of these individuals had }teen tried for murder, or attempts to commit mittler, and the fiavernmeot had released many where they thonOit they could iLt so with safety. Many of them appeared sane while confined, but no doubt would break into violence the moment that confinement were taken oft Government could have no motive in confining any one of these persons ten initiates moie than was necessary.—(clear.) — lle knew the establishment was conducted in a very laudable manner. Mr. 11. ('LIVE shortly supported the Vote, on the grounds urged by the :wit Speaker. Mr. W. SMITH said. there was ihn establishment less likely to be abused than the present. Mr. IirNIC and Mr. Cs.tvi: mutually explained. and the Resolution was then agree:l to. The next Resolution was for 1i,6:11/. for retired lowances and Compensation% to Persons holding Offices in the Public Service. Mr. lICME said. he thought this sum ought to be charged to the Civil Lil*. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, the indi viduals were Centrally Sll years old. There could be no rational doubt :I !lir propriety of this Vote. Mr. lICNIE explaiueil.—lti% complaint was pally against the allowance to Consuls, whose ditties were generally very few, and were often imperfectly discharged. Mr. RODINSON said, the subject of allowances to CO11'41119; W. 15 under consideration ; but it was trait cast ,to detine the % roper a llowance. be iterest of the country erm required that the Constds sh 'f ould n be properly . _ paid. Mr. AP.BUTIINOT said, that of the individuals in. citified in this Vote, lie could at the moment mention of 7S, one of 1. and one of SO years of age. Mr. W. SY. rril said, that a classical importance 11;111 Cern given to the name of C.instils, a n iniportince quite unconnected with their duties. li e k ne w t h e ease of a Con Ail who had misbehaved himself, and he had no doubt that in time that Consul in his turn would claim a comensation. fle refrained from naming the person, lest it might -"honk' . hi (Mr. Smith). hail introduced is invidiously. Mr. Hume and the laririe.tii of Loicininierry run malty explained, anal the Ile,wintinn Was then it-lree,l to. On the grant of I SAM!: for the TouLtiese Emi. grants and the Knights of Malta, Colonel DAVIES observed, that as the individuals for whom part of this grint was respired had fallen into misfortune in their struggle against Buonaparte. in the cause of the reigning 'Family of France, he thought that they ought to be pensioned at the ex pence of that family. believed aissOlial the pre sent Russian Minister. of • Prapci; Cuititt P 0220 Hi Borgo, received a pension from this dosernutent.• Ile wished to know if this was true ? • Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that he did once re ceive a pension, 'Wile believed fit didnot now.— When he did receive it; he was tui emigrant in this country.. Colonel DAVIES was surprised that none of the Right lion. Gentlemen opposite could give a positive answer on this eubjert. Part of this vote, ti,ooll/. was' .for the knights tif Malta. He did not know why these people ahead tiir pensioned on this counter, and he certainly was notincliued to agree to the vote. Mr. ARIMJ lIINOT stated thnt . the provisions . grained to the Toulonesr emigrante..was in consider ation of canals services rendered by those iinliridnals to Lord llooent the time of• his taking Toulon. With regard to the Knights of Malt*. they also were pen. t.- . sinned in consideration of essential segos readeret to the British in the course df military Ind oral ope rations; but it was not intended to continue the grants longer titan the present year. The C I I AN C F. 1.1,011 of the EXCHEQUER observed that the pension to the Tonlonese emigrants, ought to be regarded in the light of naval half•pay. It arose from Lord Hood, on his evacuating Toulon, taking all the French ships with him, by which means these in• dividuals were thrown out of employmeu., receiving a promise of British protection. Mr. BENNET said, that if these individuals sided with a foreign enetny, merely because it was engaged against their country, he would abstain from ap plying a hard word to t hem, but he would say that he would not pension them for that. If they joined with that enemy in the cause of the. Royal Fa mily of France against the Revolutionary Governm..nt, then he could not agree to pay them for so doing, as the present Government of France ought to do that. Mr. 0OULIII:RN protested against the principles laid down by the Hon. Gentleman, upon which he called on this Government to turn round upon the former benefactors of this country and say, " Your conduct was so immoral, so wicked, that we cannot think of giving von the reward we promised you to in duce yon to render those services." The principle upon which the petition was granted, was a re ward for services from which we benefitted, without reference to what other parties derived advantage from them.—The grant was then agreed to. For the sialarimof certain Officers in the Court of Exchequer 7,000 The How-street Police Office, and the River Thames Police E s t a blishment 32.Ati7 Mr. BENNET did not object to the Grant from its principle ; but he wished to know what was the cause of its increase, when the police was in so bad a state Mr. SMITH agreed with his lion. Friend as to the Inefficient state of our Police. The Marques' of LONDONDERRY said, that at no period of the history of this country was the Police of the Metroissilis in so efficient a state. The increase of expense had be , n caused by an addition to our Po lice fore of a great party of Ilorse and Foot Patrolc, who had been added since three or four months back. lie was ;sappy to state, that since this addition, there had been a great diminution of crime, and if we went on in the same ecurse, he hail no doubt we should have as efficient a Police as the nature of the Consti tution would admit of. He was authorised to state that tl:e Home Secretary's expectations hail been more than realized in the effect of the additional Parole. — Next Session he should have no objection to go into a Committee on this subject. Mr. HENN ET was glad to hear that his Majesty's Government were at length awake to the state of the Police of the Metropoiis. It was so iliefficient, that the inhabitants of the Strand had been ohliged to club together for payment of an extra Police to guard their houses by night. On the Grant of 2-02!. fir repairs of Henry the' Seventh's Chapel being read, Mr. RENNET batik occasion to ask whether It. was their intention to take into their 'twit keeping the public monuments o$ the Metropsd s. The state of the monuments of art in Westminster Abbey I 1 and St. Paul's Cathedra l was a dis g race to the coon- try. lie did not know where the blame lay, for he did sot know who was responsible. The bean and Chapter of other Cathedrals in the kingdom took spe cial charge of keeping them in a state of repair and eleaniiness; hut the low, money-loving, Were thirsting—(a laugh)—individuals who were similarly situated with regard to the Cathedrals of this city, al lowed the magnificent productions of art under their care to go to miter. Sir C. LONG said that the national monum"nts in question were under the Dean and Chapter. His Ma jesty's Ministers haul exceedingly regretted that those persons who derived great profit from the exhibition of these splendid works of art shoold not have thonght it 111(9;10re:it on them to take care of what the 'obile money had been so liberally bestowed upon. lie assnrcel the Hon. Gentleman that they viewed with mortifica tion the manner in which the Dean and Ch a pter u t IVestininster and St. Paul's hail conducted themselves in this particular, and hoped that some power w tnid be placed in their hands, of rescuing them from the ruin which appeared to menace them. Mr. W. smrrit doubted whether the Dean and Chapter of Westminster Abbey should not be required to pay the 'lmposed sum far the repair of Henry VII. Cha pel out of their own funds, which were at present about to be considerably increased by the sale of seats in the Abbey, for the gratification of public curiosity. Ile e ntirely agreed with the r e m a r ks of his lion. 'Friend,. as to the state of Westminster Abbey. But the state! of St. Paul's might be said to he even worse. lie had lately seen that Cathedral, and he declared, that it looked more like a receptacle for dirt and cobwebs, than for the nubile monuments of our statesmen and warriors, yetthe revenue of the Dean and Chapter :vas very considerable, especially from the exhibition of the public moonments. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the expensC of Henry the Seventh's Chapel was never defrayed by the Dean and Chapter of Westmin ster Abbey, but by the public, as this Chapel wa s the eementory of our Hier. Ile knew nothing of the conduct of St. Paul's Cathedral, but the Dean anti Chapter of Westminster had within a few years ex pended no less than 10,00/. in the repairs of the - abbey. The tesolntion was agreed to. 1;pon the motion for a grant for the Establishment of Sierra lone. Mr. W. SMITH took occasion to say, that the indi vidual appointed as Chief Commissionyr for Sierra Leone was a man who had received no regular educa tion, sad who was wholly incompetent to discharge the duties. Sir George Collyer, the Commanding Of ficer on that station, had declared that Me. Gregory's imbecility had contributed In a great measure to de feat the objects of the Commission. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said that he hail transferred the appointment of the Commissioners into the hands of the distinonished individual at the head of the Admiralty, and Sir C. Robinsoa, the Ailrocate•Ueaeral. who were best able to attest per sons of professional ability. With regard to Sierra Leone no individual could be found, who was williag to accept the appointment at 1,5001. a-year, and the salary was consequently increased to 30004 e-year, . with a retiring pension of 13001. Sash was the dread of the climate. that even no professional 'leaflets.% could be found to accept the appointment, and W. Scott accordingly recommended it to be given to :glue intelli : tent ronitnercial intik The idea of a n silence in Sierra Leone was so nniversalle sop: pose I to carry along with it the isles of .each , t h at h i , hail rever had a more terrific piece of p.lronsg e at his disposal—(A lanstlo.)—lle could nut but .epee, a t ,; the course which the lion. lientlemaik had taken, i n deriding up.,n the merits of Mr. liregory on the mere 'Homo of a Naval Officer. Mr. W. SMITH disclaimed having imputed any partiality to the Noble Lord in making the arpoint. Mr. 131tOl'allAM s Ail, that with all defer e n ce 0 , the sticemetits of Sir William Scott, and Sir l'. It °blown, it was scarcely credible that there could be any difficulty in finding a gentleman of repi ne eilleation in the profession of the law, t o fill a n al tpaintutent of 3,0001. a year, with a retirin g pension of SOUL a year. The procession of the L A was by n,, means in so flourishing a state, that amo n t, the jnnior branches of it such an appointment worild .o' he most readily accepted. lie had no doubt that when the statement made by the Noble Lord went forth to the public, it would excite ronsiderablo astonishment, anti produce this good effect at lea-% that when the Noble hard should look one Itereafte. an , co z the profession. sonic tenders would be mad.. ti him, which would enable him to get a better Judge, t er the same intlge, at a lower salary. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, he rer taittly had not advertised the appointments, but they had remained a long time at the disposal of Si. W. Scot!, and if there were so abundant a crop of aspiring young lawyers, as the Honour dile and Learned Gen tleman anpposed, it was certain that they did not bite sery fast.—(A laugh.)—lle perfectly remetaberel, that lie (Lora Londonderry) haul been twice (-diet over the coals in that Utilise for making the al pointu►ents: and, as far as two ilistts•tions could opt rAte as advertisements, stith:ient publicity ha i l b een given to them. Itesoltition was then pill anti agreed to. Oft titr vote of i 00,41,411. for the new street from Marv-le.bone to Charing-cross, Mr. Ii1:31F. asliell two questions with respect to a charge of I l,000!. far law expense, architects sad kinveyors, and a sum of 1200/. for new s-laries, whet( it had been understood that the whole service was to be discharged by the ContinissiJners fur Waal, s.d Forests. \l-. lII*SKISSON said he bad no objectioa to lay the wirticalars of the law expenses before theHoose, and with regard to the new salaries they Issd ben rAI. red necessary by the great extent of the Takao which had devolved upon the Commissioners. .It . :er a few words front Mr. W. Sum, the Raw lotion was agreed to. On the vote for the Cape of cam' !lope, Mr. U. RENS asked whether any (*adherence+ ragetnent had been given to the New Settlers in tha Cape of hood Ilope. 31 r. IhOU JAW It N replied in the negative. Mr. W. SMITH observed, that it was uf the atisolt importance. that every means should be resorted. to to prevent the extension of slavery it the Cape *Mood Hope. Mr. G01:181 7 1IN said, he entirely concurred witlP' the Lion. Gentleman, and that no precaution bathes omitted to accomplish that desirable object. Sir It. WILSON thought it worth the considered** of Guyertiment, whether it would not be worth while to purchase the few remaining slaves iu the colony. The Itesuhtti .n was then agreed to. Opt the vote fur building Churches and Melt Houset, Mr. 11UMK expreved a hope that no more money would be required from Parliament for that pups% until they had ascertained what was done with their* fruits and tenths. Mr. BENNET would not agree to the great di sinzle shilling until the whole Church Establishers' of t!te country was brought under the considered's of Ote lions*. After a few words from Lord Nitt:ros, the Rev ludon was agreed to. On the vote for discharging the expense of pot. lishing . Pr iclaittations, Mr. BENNE I' noticed the system of prerefeerei adopted by Govern men t towards certain pipers a s is. jurions to the public in terest, by operating as a bri to the press of the country. and in other respects featiog the purposes fur which it was pastel Those papers should bs selected which were "OF to give publicity to the document. Mr. GRANT said be had reduced the elver 9 to ~UOOl. this year, with a view to woe aiir tageous arrangement in the nest. Lord MILTON said a few wor ds in ertiti° to the grant, and Mr. GOCLBURN a kw i° your of it. Mr. ME thought that the only war of Ptt ni an end to tie system was by refusing the greet, cially as many sums voted antler different head!, applied to the same purpose of corruption. He Minded some time ago to t he instance of The Newspaper, from which Government had thoughtr per to withhold all procla mati•ms. This was ell! instance is which such a course had been object in this country, and it was the more repreilerliblel,l Ministers must have known that the circulatioaef Times was so extensive as to render it so 0 ft an t instrument in the giving publicity to ,/eb7 That Paper had paid n u less a stun than 5 4 Government in the course of the last year. After some further observa tion from Me. n—li* Mr. °RATTAN, Mr. DRNNAN and Mr. lionat ivs ‘ p Resolution was agreed to. the Several other items we re agreed htrtn , and wa s proceeding with the others, e Sir ROBERT WILSON, an account of the la! ! of the hour, and the pro b a bility of soma of the ' exciting discussion, moved that the Re p ort be i n t o further consideratio n this day, which atter conversation was agreed to. The other Orders of the thy were then 4 the House adjourned at l o'clork. The population of Turkey n Eur.fre ataii be ed at about It ) mill ions, via.:-3. Turk* , Jews. 0110,0110 tireeks or Helleni.ig, bUnAgn riaus, 1,370,0011 Molilarian. and WaliAcitiarctriA °Wan*, 540,000 Ammo. WOK) Allunsiaos• 4 geniaas. "NO KAtaiani, iti 14913 Ihtbsadant, sea 30,0011 Croatians. tarot. INN *per ~.. 111:. 1 t 1 I I .