The Statesman. — London, England, 1823-07-15 00:00:00

• --- The LORD CHANCELLOR said he felt' it his di to state that his opinion respecting this measure still 'i nstilled unaltered, and he still persisted in his opposition to it. The disputes of a Corporation were always to be settled before a Court of Justice, and not by Parliament, which was not to take upon itself the duty of re-modelling a Corporation. Lord REDESDALE declared that lie could have no personal objection in giving his opposition to this Bill. The ground on which he objected to it was one connected with oublic duty; and in that respect, bethought the• passing of it would lead t• a most dangerous precedent. sloe most objectionable part of the measure was, that several thousand freemen were to have the Government of the City of Limerick; and if be was an inhabitant of the city, he should be very sorry to have'such a Govern ment as this. The Bill, instead of restoring vitt, would only produce new dissensions in the City of Limerick Instead of •this Bill restoring peace and trammillity among the inhabitants of Limerick, he was satisfied it would be a source of additional dissension. The Marquess of LANSDOWN hoped that howentet necessary it might be to maintain the principles of cor porate rights, it was equally needful to take care that the corporation exercised their power fur the atfrantage of the inhabitants, and with strict justice to them. With regard to the objections to the Courts of d'OyerHundred, which the Bill proposed, there could not be any just ap prehension from them, as similar Courts were held ender the Charters of Cork and Galway. There was not, in fact, a single proposition in the Bill, which was not taken from precedent in former cases. He would only in addi tion say, that the subject was viewed with the greatest anxietyat Limerick, and that the petition from thatplace presented to their Lordships, was signed by almost every respectable person not a member of the corporation. He was satisfied of the expediency, the legality, and justice •f the Bill. Lord MAN VERB supported the Bill. The Bill was then read a third time and passed. IRISH TITHES' BILL. The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved that the Irish Tithe Composition Bill be reported with amendments. Tee Marquess of LANSDOWN proposed that the clause respecting the owners of agistment lands be left out. The Earl of WESTMORLAND defended the clause. The Earl of ROSSLYN supported the amendment. The Earl of LIVERPOOL supported the clause. as the owners of agistment lands in Ireland were a most wealthy eless.and they had a fair option by the Bill. The exclusion of the clause would lead to great and certain confusion. The Marquess of LANSDOWN explained. Lord MARY BOROUGH supported the clause, as The egistment land of Ireland consisted of at least one-half the land in Ireland. The Earl of BLESSINGTON opposed the dense. Lord BELMORE objected to certain provisions of the Bill. i The Earl of LIVERPOOL explained the nature of the elapse. The Earl of BLERSINGTON said, that if this Chine were to benefit the Clergy he should oppose it. He did not think that whilst the flock was materially decreasing, the sti pend!: of the pastors ought to be increased. Tae Bishop of DOWN supported the clause.—Had not the compulsory clause been omitted in the Bill. he was em powered to present a petition against it, signed by three Archbishops, sixteen Bishops, and upwards of six hundred Clergy.—The Bill he thought would work well, and tend to establish pence and order in the country. The Earl of DARNLEY said, he would offer no opposi tion to the Bill, although he could not agree with the Right Rev. Prelate in opinion, that it would prove a ■ of s(f much advantage to Ireland. He thought the Bill very imperfect ; but he still bailed it as an attempt to relieve the Pt ale o! Ireland from a very oppressive grievance. Lord CLIFDEN asked, was it not possible to get rid of the tithes altogether, by selling them for their full value? The Noble Lord adverted ,to the present state of Ireland, and asked was it possible that things could go on in their present condition in that country! It was in vain be thotight to look for peace 10 Ireland, as long as gig millivolts,. nearly a third of the whole population of the empire, were kept out of their rights. . . The Marquess of L INSDOWN said he would not press the amenduient. The amendment was then .mgatived; and the Report be ing agreed to, the Bill was ordered to be read a third time tomorrow. IRISH CIIII7:ICHES' BILL. • The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved that the Irish Churches' Bill be read a third time. _ 2 Lord HOLLAND asked If It was intended that this VIII should be ranted through all its stages without explanation. The Earl of LIVERPOOL explained shorn'' , the object of the Bill. He said that it would operate as a measure of re -I.cf by reducing the rate for building and repairs of churches from six to four per cent. Lord HOLLAND said that hr wilt not prepared to hear the Noble Earl speak of this Bill as a measure of relief, since its object wis to mike the people Catbolic as well as Protestant. contribute to the church rates. It might be a measure of justice or of necessity, bat it could never he a measure of relief. It was certainly, to ase a vulgar and very unjust expression —rather an Irish way of affording relief. He was now rather an eld Men). bet of Parliament. He bad always considered Bills with several preambles as coming before the House in a very questionable shape. Ile bad seen Bills of too, three, and possibly four preambles. How many did their Lordships think were attached to this Gill? Why not less than right. And yet this monster with eight beads had crept to a third reading, and was shout to fly out into an Act of Parliament, without any explanation being given of its nature and tendency. And this was a Bill up-n the most ticklish branch of legislation that ever came before their Lordships. He objected to the measure on various grounds. The first object of it was to take away that lenient forbearance wheels Justices were at present permitted to exercise in the keying of the church rates. The next part of the Bill was indif ferent, act' he should not have alluded to it, but for what fell from the Noble Lord opposite. It was said that where there was a church, there was sure to be a con gregation i but nothing was more absurd than such a supposition with regard to Ireland. The thinness of the churches in Ireland did not arise from any defectof accommodation, or negligence on the pastors, but from the actual absence of a Protestant population to fill them. His Noble Friend below, bail read to their Lordships a note addressed to the rector of a country church in Ire land, which was in these words:—" Dear Sir,—She is unwell. Yo u need not come to-day," Who was she— was it a figurative expression for the whole church ? No, the being alluded to here, was not an allegorical person age, hot the mother of the sexton.-.-(Laughing.) Here the gentle clerk wrote that the clergyman need not come because one woman, his only congregation, was ill—a tilling of churches this with a vengeance , lithe church was tilted with this venerable matron, either she was of respectable dimensions, or' the edifice was very small., Another part of the Bill, or rather another Bill alluded, L) those parishes where a union had taken place. In this particular the law had been already a 'good deal abused in 'Wand. The object of unions at first was, to give to the few Protestant inhabitants who might he in a small elpntignous parish, a right to a church in the neighbouring parish, upon condition of their paying a proportion of the interest of the money expended upon the church. They were chargeable, however, only for repairs, not for building or re-building. This Bill,how ever, obliges the parish so added, to subscribe to the sum necessary to build the church, and it was ealkd a Relief, Bill. N ay, the Bill went farther, for it extended to case tiguous parshes. It *tided that where there was a con tiguous parish, the Protestant inhabitants of which had not the accommodation of a church, the' Diocesan was empowered at their request to admit them to the larger pariah church, imposing upon them at the same time a share of the interest of the money originally expended =~~: - ' uptin the piece of worship, At present perishes so united were liable only to a portion of the repairs, but this Bill, which professed relief. added a new burden of building or rebuilding the church. And thus, in consequence, it was in the power of any two or three Protestants in a perish to make a representation to the Bishop. and so bring upon the Catholic population of the parish the bur den of a church built in a neighbouring one, with which they had no possible connection. But a more objection able clans, still was, that of giving to the few Protestants who might thus be let into another parish a right of sit ting in the vestry. and voting without any qualification whatever. And this, too, at a time that the Catholic in habitants were excluded from voting at all, by as hypo critical a subterfuge as ever crept into an Act of Parlia ment. The Bill professed to let in all descriptions of per sons to vote at vestries, but towards the end a clause would be found, by which it wax secured that no altera tion should be made in the existing law as affecting Ito man Catholics, for an exception was always made against those who were excluded from voting by the ordinary law of tie land.—(Hear, hear.) It might be said, that as this was a law before, it could be no objection to this Bill that it haul left it as it found it. Butthat was the very objection which he bad to it. Such a law was in di rect opposition to the fundamental principles of the Eng lish Constitution, which provided that a man should have . seine voice in the disposal of his property. This law received its birth in dark and illiberal times, and it was no excuse for the present enlightened age, that, instead of amending, they continued it. For al; these reasons, then, he thought the Bill one which ought to be well Considered. The coarse which he should take, if such a Bill came before the House early in the Session, would be to move its recommitment; but, seeing that any Amendment could not receive its full discussion . in the other House, he was aware such a step would be fatal to it. He, however, implored the Noble Earl opposite, to suspend this measure until further opportunity was afJ forded for canvassing its merits; one question was, who-. they, under the circumstances, such a measure was the best which could be advised ; and a second, whether a regulation of this sort in the pres.nt state of Ireland was at all necessary. The Noble Lord cOncluded by moving, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a third time that day three The Bishop of DOWN supported the Bill. It had re ceived the most mature consideration in the other House ; its provisions had undergone the strictest scrutiny from persons highly conversant with the subject, and bad, moreover, received the sanction of the present Lord Lieu tenant, than whom there was no warmer friend to the Church of Ireland. These were at least strong recom mendations of the measure to this House. In fact, their Lordships must be prepared, either to pass a Bill of this n.iture or see the Church of Ireland totally unable to enforce the necessary contributions for the holding of places of worship. in the present ease, the collection of these dues were most imperfect—in some instances they had run most frightful into arrear, and in his own diocese, the Bev. Prelate said, there were seven years' payments undischarged. A more important • seesisure therefore to the Church of I rated could nut be imagined. Lord CLIFDEN ridiculed the idea of drawing congre gations by the increase of churches in Ireland. To his own certain knowledge, there were already more churches there than were frequented. He therefore condemned 'the suggestion of imposing fresh burdens upon the Ca. tholic population wantonly and unnecessarily. He par ticularly disclaimed that part of the Bill which made neighbouring parishes chargeable for churches built in other parishes. The true way of ascertaining whether or not churches were wanted in Ireland, was to procure returns of the relative Catholic and Protestant popula tions of Ireland, and the result would show whether there were not churches enough for the Protestants. If Go vernment were really disposed to do good for the people of Ireland, the effectual and statesmanlike way to act, would be to enable the Catholics to build their chapels. and Government might calculate upon a rich harvest of gratitude from them for so generous and jest an act. The present measure he looked upon as one of the jobs which were alike injurious to Ireland and disgraieful to Government. Lord LIVERPOOL in explanation said, that at pre sent smaller parishes might insist upon having a church built for them, but the present 818-obliged the parish only to constitute a portion towards the building of a Church in another pariah. In that light it was therefore sl benefit. Lord HOLLAND said his complaint was that parishes which became united were made subject to an er 'Seer jhezo charge, the expenses of building the church, having -been incurred before they because united. He protested against the doctrine laid down by the Reverend Prelate, hteause a measure. bad been discussed in the other House, ,and approved of by the Lord Lieutenant ; it ought there- Aire to puss as of course here. This was most unparlia &mental"-, for if this doctrine were carried to its full extent, this House would be worse than useless. The Bishop of DOWN said he only meant to say that the'circumstance of this Billbeiag five months before the House of Commons, furnished some guarantee, for its jos tler, to this. Lord DARNLEY deprecated the doctrine of the Rev. Prelate, as degrading to this House. He objected to this Bill on account of the late period at which so important a amoure was brought forward, and said he would vote for the amendment of his Noble Friend. The Bill was then read a third time without a division and passed. Th. other Bills before the House were each forwarded a stage.—Adjourned. SPITALFIELDS ACT. The apprehension that the Silk Manufactures' Bill, to repeal the " Spital6elda Regulations," would be read a third time yesterday, again drew considerable numbers of the weavers about the entrances to the House of Lords. They again conducted themselves in the most orderly manner. carefully avoiding any obstruction about the entrances to their Lordships' House. Soon after five o'clock they began to disperse, having ascertained that the third reading would not be moved till a subsequent day. The evidence was not generally delivered till yester- day ; and as the latter portions of it are de e m e d o f great importance, being mainly occupied with demonstrating the disadvantages of the existing " Regulations,j' con. boiling the trade, it was considered adviseable not to press the third reading till the whole of the evidence, filling nearly 300 folio pages. might have been duly ex amined by their Lordships. To afford tech opportunity, the third reading is wade an Order of the Day for Wed nesday next. Our Readers are aware that the Committee \ who re ceived such voluminous evidence, reported the Bill t o th e House " without any Amendment; so that unless their Lordships should agree to some Amendment on the third reading (which is stated to be very unlikely), no further question on the Bill can be raised in the House of Com mons. If the Lords altered or added to the Bill, such alterations or additions must have the sanction of the Commons, which would open the question anew in the lower House; but otherwise, the Lords, by message, in 'form the other House that they have agreed to the Bill, se which proceeding no qeestion can be raised. in the *rest of the Bill receiving the sanction of th e L or d s on ned kr Wednesday, of which no doubts are Menai th e Bill, it is at present expected, will nut receive tbs. As seat by Commission, but it will be given rte it lap m a . jesty in person. on the prorogation of Parliament en Fri day a Saturday melt. • •• ' • l . ~~`- ~ . 1611 2. 4 • ARR. DOZ. • . 0 I ....Waterford.... 0 1.... G & Jersey. 0 0.... !Asko!) 0 I....Gottenburg. I l....lFfolland 0 1.....Hambr0 I I.... France 0 0 ...Flanders •.0 0....Ma1ts PRICE OF STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK. Bank Stock .... 424/ 41 1 IndlaStock per Ct. Red toefi Ditto 80nd5....405. Ns. pm Ilp.Ct. C0n5....62 8I 89 E5.11111.9d. 514, 28 , gi per Cent. 9s' 10001. 4 per Cent5....991 100 991 1 —5091. 24:97s pm. New Fours .. 100 H 101 1 ---Etutall-12412 . 85 pm. Long Ann 91 1-16 LottcryTickets ..... 141.141 Imp. 3 per Ct. Con.for Acct 83 HO- Cite *tattontan. TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 15, 1623. • STOCR EXCNANOZ, 12 o'CLocc.—Consols opened thi s morning at 8311, and are now SEM with a brisk market. Tne price for the next Account is 831 to 84. We do not hear of any Express to-day from Paris. The first payment of the new French loan Is to be made to day. Mr. Rothschild, we understand, on his arrival in Lon don, which is expected this evening, will take 701. for every 1000 Reales, and 10 shillings brokerage, subject to his fix ing the exchange. Foams FUNDS.—The above market ;Is vet) , slack this morning. Spanish Bonds opened sit 321, and French Scrip l at 31, with little doing. _ New Spanish, Sli—New Prussia, 133—Rlissia, 871.—Neapolltie, 73—Colombia, MI to b7—Heath Scrip, 2 to 1. By German papers which bare arrived this morning., we have received accounts from Trieste, of the 26th of Jane. They represent the Greek Government as almost I exclusively engaged in military preparations for the ap proaching third campaign, which will be important and perhaps decisive. The Turkish fleet which sailed towards the Peleponnesus on the 4th of Jane, is stated to consist of 120 sail, exclusive of transporfi, with 15,000 troops osi board ; and independent of the Egyptian fleet of 30 sail, Ming out at Alexandria, to act against Candi*. The Pacha of Scutari, it is said, has set out with 40,000 Albanians, to march by way of Thessaly to the Mores; and after receiving on the road reinforcements which are ex- petted to ainiiunt, to as many more, this great army is to join in Thessaly another of equal force. Another article, dated Coen, 3d Jude, describes the latest taconnts from the Mona as favourable to the Greeks. Calocatroni has submitted, and their whole force is said to be near 50400 men. They have been negoeiating with the Albanians, who would rather be with them than with the Pacha of Scutari.; and if they obtain the expected pecuniary supply from England, dui consequences may be decisive. Wbate7er differeocei take place among the Greeks, gi►e way when danger is apprehended from the Turks. The declaration publish ed by Lord Strangford, relative to the restoration of the Congress at Verona, has rather increased than depressed their courage. They declare that they Will not listen to any proposals for a compromise. The only other article of,importance which these papers ,contain, is she following : Town, Juvia 10.—Some days ago an English frigate ar rived is this Port. -It hoe two Envoys on board, who are commissioned to dimmed of this Government the liberty of all Christian Slaves, who are subjects of the lonian Islands. —(Gakelle of Genoa, July 3.) We have received this toorniog Norfolk (Virginia) papers to the 21st of June, from which we extract the fol lowing L tomes., Slav 22.-1 ban the pleasure to inform you, that Coro bas been retaken by our troops. The best regiment, called Regiment de Borges, and belonging to the enemy, has been completely destroyed. On the sth instant, the Columbian squadron, amounting is all to 20 sail, (including gun-boats) forced a passage over the bar into the lake of Maracaibo; and having a strong breeze in their favour, succeeded in passing the castle without recei”ing any injury.Tbey must, themfoze, be in possession of the city of Maracaibo. We hate Inserted to day, what we were essapelled yes terday to postpone, the extraordinary half-01W document which has been issued from St. Petersburg, a defence and explanation of the views of the Holy Alliance towards Spain. We have not even now leisure to analyse this per nicious andjesuitieal production; but it shall not escape us; as we have great reason to apprehend that its doctrines are more palatable in a certain Cabinet thin somports with the principles of a free State. Among other curiosities, it pro claims that the Spaniards do not dislike the 111004 Mo. I We shall presently be told, on the same authority, that we long for the restoration of the Stuarts ; and that the Boar firma, as their legitimate representatives, should take the Throne: PARLIAMENTARY COMMENTARY. . Tits House or LORDS is making up the difference of holiness between that Body end the House of Commons, preparatory to the prorogation of those Assemblies. Much novelty, cannot, therefore, be expected from a hasty routine, in which anxiety to conclude is what a late , statesman would call a " fundamental feature." Last i night, however, gave us a fine specimen of the " pro fee:lonal feeling" which operates upon our tough old Chancellor, and certain of his Colleagues. The third reading of the Bill to regulate the business of the Cor poration of Limerick, came on; and the Chancellor, who, from the necessary attention to his own privilege*, which have been rather rudely attacked, had not had an opportunity of attending to the privileges of his poor friends, the Corporators of Limerick, came down last night to lament be bad not attacked the Bill, before it had attained such growth. With all the feeling with which this experienced officer is accustomed to talk of the " abuses of Bodies Corporate," he observed, that peccadilloes of tbis complexion" should always be left to the Courts below; and not brought before their Lord. ships. The Chancellor should know that the " Corpora tion peccadilloes" would always be safe in the Courts below." Corporation influence and Corporation peccadil loes, go band in hand in such Courts in Ireland; and when one is placed at the bar. the other is sure to be on .the bench; and the juries there being mule animals. engendered between the influence and the peccadilloes MAILS. i • 1, • 4 • the peccadilloes are treateo lit filial affeciion A ant it & is quite natural Atli Chines& should reget tt at iklyl should disturb so amiable a family arrangement. Besides, though the distance Is immeasurably great `between the Cor poration of Limerick, and the Court of Chancery ; yet to begin to cortect abuses anywhere, is laying a stone tower 's building a bridge from one Court to another, and the Court of Chancery, and its innumerable peeadilioes, may be reached at last. The Chancellor is old ; but he is also wise and it is a part of prudence to run no risks. This excellei .t friend to the Constitution 'as by law established, thinCi abuses would be much better remedied, because more legally so, by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in Council, as the . sworn representative of the King. Perhaps the Chancelloi thinks so, because he knows 'that the Lord Lieutenant in Council is a cipher in such matters ; and knowing his own want of power too well to meddle with them, would be likey to let them alone. This is the way in which his Lordship wishes abases to be remedied. But, pray, my good Lord Chancellor, bow can any thing be more legal than an Act of Parliament? Surely, if Acts of Parliament to destroy pub lic rights are legal, Acts of Parliament to remedy Corpora , ties abuses must be legal too. It was natural for a Chan cery Judge to .give his friends much joy at the prospect of litigation without end, so we will not make one comment upon the unseasonable merriment; but the Chancellor gets en to object to the fixed allowance of 50W. a-year as the :A lary of the Mayor of Limerick. Mind what you are 7abolt, says the Chancellor, perhaps astonished that any public s:•- buy sholld be so low as 5041. " Why," says he, "if this estimate be admitted in part, some otaer Mayoid might be considered as not entitled to oue half they had!" Hire is a prudent foresight of this venerable Statesman " Keep up " the digalty of eke; by keeping up the salaries. There " is no true greatness, but what estimates BO &f by pounds ' sterling. Double the salary of a map, anal you double ' his capacity at the same time !" Tnis is ;the clot of once. After all, however, in his abundant metcy, Vt. Chancellor swoild not oppose the Bill; but he oiled that " it would not be drawn into any pre cedent." Lord Redesdale followed the Chancellor; and was almost equally patbetiu :lion the subject. It was quite shocking to find that the Bill should make s' the Miyoe and Aldermen, and Common-Councilmen, " of the City of Limerick, just nothing at all ;" and that " it enacted that about two thousand, and those 41 amongst thelowest classes in society, should meet, , :e• bate questions, and thus at their pleasure, be compe tent to controul the Corporation." This is truly drew.= and there is only one consolation, which* is, that the " higher classes" have done so much mischief, that any change for the Porie could hardly be anticipated, let,the managetn eat, either of Corporate or National butanes , . tall into what bands it might; and particularly in Ire. land, where mischief has long worn its most destructive form.; This Noble Lord also reprimands the idea of mend lag a Corporation merely by Act of Parliament, instead of having recourse to the magic operation of the Great Seal, which was probably never affixed to - n remedial measure, since such a thing bis been known. This is the old recommendation to wait till abuses remedy themselves. and then, whin the sky falls, we shill ritch larks in abundance. This Noble Lord was pleased that the Chancellor bad noticed the trifling salary awarded to the Mayor, as " it was possible that the citizens might he "come more affluent, so" as to look down With disdain .* upon the iniportante of a Miyor, who was adnted to a 6' salary of SOUL ; and in this exigency what mutt be " done ? Another Act of Parlianient would be required "to provide file an additional salary!" lAd any adieu!- , boy everdream of using such argemests ? Does Lord Redesdsle think the President of America is less respect ed, because he, has only 600 W. per annum, than George the Fourth, with his half million a year? Arid can be seriously think that a Mayor with 5001. a year, would be despised on that account, when Noble Lords, and illustrious Ladiei, do not disdain to receive sinecure appointments of single hundreds I if the inhabitant; were opulent, they would probably Chide in opulent Mayor; and then, instead of w noting a larger salary, might dispense with any. We can assure his Lordship. that if society chose, it could find abundance of men %.).0( would serve it much better than it bas been served, with out any remuneration. • The Irish Tythe Bill was forwarded tilti its road to M. come a law. We have before said, that as demonftrating practically the right of the Legislature to interfere on the subject of tythe-property, we approve of the me:isore but to most of its details there are exceptions. The only thing that could make it useful to Ireland has been omitted ; we mean the clause to compel the Clergy to take a reasonable compensation. As the matter stands. where the Priest can collect his tythes, with any thing like facility, the Bill will he a dead letter, for he will bare nothing to do with it, if he would lose a shilling by itseffective operation. But where the mischief of the present system has been carried so far, as to render it impossible to collect tythes, the Clergyman will demand a commutation, and secure himself in that way. The Bill has also had an eye to the " benefit of the Church" in another way. Agistment Lands are sot now, it ar pears, subjected to trite ; but. by the present Dili, a cons; pensation for these is to be awarded to the tythe-owner. This is evidently giving the Church a new right to the property of other persons. It is said the agistment lands are brought forward in aid of the poor people, who pay tythcs ; but we see no clause to exempt the pour people ; and are, therefore, compelled to conclude that they are only brought forward in aid of the Clergy alone. F Mr. Hunt having been invited to dine with the Re formers of Birmingham yesterday, the Proprietors of this paper anxious to furnish an account of the proceed ings, have meaged a geutlq man to attend the dinner; and Tux NTATIteMAN of to-morrow will contain as full a report of tire Meeting as we may be able to receive by the Poet. The Rev. Mr. Kenny, late a Catholic,priest, read his recantation on Sunday, at St. fslartiu's Church, in pre. sence of Archdeacon Putt and a numero :s congregation. The preventive service for England, against smug gling, cost last year 1403141. Ms. 54d, It is reported there will shortly be a coinage of Matte Sovereigns. Oa Saturday next the ceremony of laying the first stone of the Royal University Infirmary for Children, will take place in the Waterloo Bridge Road, when the Duke of York, as Vice Patron of the Charity, will pre. side, assisted by several distinguished characters. IVe understand that Hans Burk, Esq., of poetic cele brity, has purchased the beautiful estate of Culverden., late t4e pi upar3 of I.:Lionel IYardell, at Tunbridge Wells, f, - -C.: - • vt; k111_" = I .