The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-06-09 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN. only a source of /mention to those against whom it Dukes, members of the reigning family, • had also operated, but it was also a s o urce of weakness with voted in it. Under these circumstances the Catho. reference to the country in general. Nothing could lice had been led to indulge the most sanguine et therefore be more contrary to sound policy than to pectatirms that their Claims would be speedily and continue these disabilities, and every friend to the favourably attended (o; and this was certainly an welfare of the community must he desirous to re- additional reason why their Lordships should not mare these restrictions, provided it could he done suffer these hopes to be disappointed by now re without serious danger. This was a sufficient fusilier, to go into this enquiry. With respect to the le. meet for enquiry, even if there had existed reasons cotad head, the Claims which the Catholics had to their tn-suspect •the fidelity of the Catholic body. But Lordships' favourable consideration by the fidelity where could thei r Lordships find any sound reason which they had evinced for upwards of 20 years, he for suspecting the fidelity of the Catholic body?— begged leave to call their attention to the Act of They had given mane proofs of their allegiance and 1793, in favour of the Catholics. it was chiefly the fidelity to the Government and Constitution ; and . wink of a Noble Lord, now no snore, and the greatest surely, when they complained of the hardships which f Parliamentary boon that had ever been conferred on they hail so long endured, it was incumbent on their j the Catholic population. That Act imposed an oath Lordships, in point of justice, as well as sound poe ; upon the Catholics, a shocking and abominable oath ; licy, at least to take theia case into consideration.—; for there was no offensive, iniquitous, and malignant In the next place their Lordships would be pleased ; charge that had ever beets imputed to the Catholics, to consider the numbers of those whose claims were tagainst which they were slot called upon to swear by to be the subject of enquiry. There was a very con.; that oath. Yet that oath, such as it was, they had siderable and respectable body of Catholics in Eng.; taken, and he recollected that some of the ablest land, and in Ireland 4-sths of the whole population ; Members of the Irish Parliament had been of opi. were Catholics. Would their Lordships, thee, dis. niou, that under the security of that oath the Catho miss the cleime of so large a population of the em- lies might be admitted to all the privileges of the pint, without even consenting to take their case into constitution, except such concessions as might affect consideration ? Nothing further was stow required the complete Protestantism of the Crown, and the but a consent to enquire. The 'louse would not be security of the Established Church. A motion to pledged tosany specific measure on the subject.. The' admit them to these privileges, with the above ex. whole questien would be completely open for eon.' eeptions, was then made in the Irish Parliament, but it eidera tine. On the behalf of this numerous body of was lost. Bet when their Lordships had such a mark their fellow-subjects, he called upon their Lordships ed proof of the fidelity and allegiance of the Catbo at least to enquire whether the complaints were in • licsdurisig a period of more than 20 years, could they Hey degree well-founded ; and if they were,. to cuts. now refuse even to reel ire into the Catholic Claims ? sider what redress could be afforded. There was an_' In ally measure that might now be suggested proper other consideration which ought to weigh with their attention might he paid to secure the Protestantism of Lordship in attending to this question. If it should the Crown, the Ecclesiastical Courts, and every thing not be thought proper to remove the disabilities un- that might with any show of reason be conceived to , der which the Catholics laboured, it was at least de- be dangerous to the Church Estahlishmeitt. When sirens that they should hear uniformly upon the , their Lordships, then, considering that the Catho. whole Catholic body ; and if their Lordships were to I lies had been so long in the habit of taking this oath, remove the disabilities affecting a portion of the Ca- lan oath prepared by a Noble Lord, who was well antic body, and not affecting the whole, this was i dispused to introduce into it every thing against sufficient ground for going into en enquiry. The; which there could be even an imaginary necessity to disabilities under which the Catholics in Scotland la- • guard—when they coesidered that upon the security Istaured, were different from those to which the Eng- of that oath it had been conceived by so many mi.. Lich Catholics were subjected, and the dimbilities of nent Members of the Irish Parliament that so much the English Catholics were different from those of might be conceded to the Catholics, surely their the Irish Catholics. What had the less-favoured t Lordships must admit that the claims of the Catho. portion of the Catholics done that they should be sob- tics merited so much attention, at least, as to betaken jected to exclusions which did not attach upon the rest ! into consideration. Well, then, their Lordships had of their brethren ? Why should the Roman Catholics I had a trial of the conduct of the Catholics silica the of the north be treated differently from those in the Bill of 1793, and if any of them thought, as he did, south, and those in the south from those in the west ? that all the privileges they claimed might have been It was impossible to suggest a sound of rational rea- given them then, surely they might he much more son for a distinction of that description ; and there- safely and readily given now. That Act not only gave fore, if it were only for the purpose of uniformity them privileges but expectations. The first repeal of its their treatment of the Catholic Body, their Lord- of any of the grievances under which they laboured ships ought to gn into the enquiry. Another very . took place in 1771, and how greatly had Ireland material consideration suggested itself in arguing the , thriven since that period : it at one became a nation, case on the ground of justice and policy—lie alluded and gradually more and more available towards to the expectations that had beets held out at the the commoul cause of the Empire. He would period of the Parliamentary Ultimo between Great call upon their Lordships to restore completely to the Britain and Ireland. He did not mean to say that' general service of the United Kingdom that native any positive engagement had been entered into tha t, energy of which, the Irish Catholics possessed so great the Catholic disabilities would he removed in conse a share, but which was stow cramped by the disabi quence of the Union, but he would say that hopes lilies under which they laboured. The Noble Lord had been held out that their Claims would meet with j next urged the absurdity of granting to the Catholics wove favourable attention than they met with its the c .crtain offices. said withholding from them others.-- Pat liament of Ireland. Ile himself Nos as fully in- More than half a viper' , the Country Magistrates formed on that point as ally Noble Lord on the op- of the South of Ireland were to his knowledge Ca. posite bench could be. He had himself been a friend tholics; and if they were thus invested with the exe to the Unien, solely from the hopes which he had cution of the laws, why taut also open to them the been taught to entertain that the Claims of the Ca. office of Judges ? The Catholics had the power of tholirs would he more favourably attended to its the returning one half of the County Members for Ire- United Parliament ; and he had gone into the south . land, and yet they were not entitled to sit as Kew-. and gained the support of the Catholics of two coati- seutatives themselves. Wes this not au anomaly that ties, and a populous city, to the measure, upon the required to be corrected ? It was a singular fart, grounds which had been suggested to himself. lie ; that the premier Earl of all England could not sit in had stated to them that they had hied the temper of !that House, merely because he was a Catholic.— the Irish Parliament ; that they knew the Coustitu. I Where was the distinction between the elective Fran. Cost of that Parliament to be such as left (hens no : chiae and political power? Ile now came to the Cr. great hopes that their Claims would be speedily at- rangetnents in favour of the Catholics. On the Bill tended to ; that in the event of an Union they would which was brought into the other House in 1813, have an opportunity of ascertaining the sense of the I with this view, he had given his opinion at the time, whole of the United Kingdom, and that a favour• that its clauses would not prove satisfactory. The able result might reasonably be expected. With the , bug-bears, for he could cell them nothiog else,agniust expectatioe, therefore, that the Union would be the ; which that Bill professed to . guard, were the Pie. means of securing a more favourable attention to tender, the Pope, and daeger to the Protestant sue their Claims, they had concurred in that object.— cession. But would any mass seriously say that the Their consent had been obtailled, not by bribery or! Catholic Bishops could have any communications corruption, or any improper conduct on .their part, with the Pope that might be dangerous to the State but by the fair and proper expectation that its the ;The fact was, the Bishops had no communticittion United Parliament .their case would find more fa. with the Pope but about what was called the cone. vourable consideration than they could hope for from . crated pall, which it was not necessary fur a Bish o p the Irish Parliament: Now, then, when the measure to receive, in order to perform the ordinary functions of the Union was effected, and the whole of the ar. of his office. It was quite absurd to suppose that the rategements in full activity and operation, he called Catholic I'relates, against whom the Bill affected to upon their Lordships not to pledge themselves to any guard, were capable of endangering the Protestant specific plan, but merely to enquire whether any succession. Had there been any disturbances in thing, and bow much, could be done in favour of the , which they had engaged; or had there been a shadow Catholic Body. Though the Government had come of complaint that any Catholic Biellop or Dean had under no positive engagement on the subject at the not done his duty ? During the Pope's captivity no time of the Union, yet hopes were certainly en- communicatiou had taken place between him and the couraged that the Clairnsof the Catholics would meet Bishops, though the affairs of their church had gene with cool and candid consideration ; and their Lord- on as usual. Why, then, fear any undue influence ships ought not to disappoint that expectation—al- on the part of the Pope ? The whole machinery of ways remembering that at present nothing was called the Bill to which he now alluded did nothing; nay, for but enquiry. IVhat it might be proper to do it did worse than nothing, for it was founded on an upon going into that enquiry, it would be for their imputation that the Catholic Clergy were proper ob. Lordships afterwards to consider. There was another . jests of distrust. It went to degrade them, while it ad. circumstance to be taken into consideration with re- milted the Laity into Parliament. What, then, did the' ference to the expectations which the Catholics might Laity say in answer to it? %Vise , this, that they would reasonably entertain, tilt their Claims would meet not accept a boost at the expence of their Clergy.... with favourable attention from their Lordships.— Ile knew the Catholic Clergy of Ireland well ; and About three years ago a motion was made by a No.: would declare., that in troublous times he had derived ble.Marquis (Wellesley) for the purpose of pledgieg • more assistance from them in keeping the peace than the !loose to take the subject of the Catholic Claims from any class of men whatever. Ile was, therefore, I into consideration. It was unnecessary for him to completely against throwing on them the imputation I advert to . the eloquence and ability with which the of not being trust-worthy. Re objected also to that! question was treated by the Noble Person to whom ittterferetice which the Bill in question gave, with lie alluded. Their Lordships could not have entire- regard to the appointment of their Bishops and Deans,l ly forgot the admirable speech made by the Noble on account of the provincial nature of the Irish Go. • Marquis on that occasiou, tier could they have for. vernment. However respectable the character of the got the powerful effect which that speech had pro- Lord Lieutenant, the care and concerns of the Ca duced. The motion was indeed lost, but it was lost tholic Church would have devolved on some third or only by a majority of one, 108 Lords being against fourth rate persons under him, to the disgust of they it, 105 for it. Their Lordships would likewise cost. Catholics and the injury of the Government. The eider of whom that powerful minority was composed.' Noble Lord next adveriet4o the. Resolutions and the Not to mention the high character and talents of the ! Bill which had been prepared by some of the leaders great body of the Lords ip that minority, it was v of _the Catholic Board. Some of those Gentlemen worthy of particular attention that a Right Rev.; he laei to be persons of great learning, eloquence, Prelate (Bishop of Norwich, we believe) of the atul energy. They might be very useful in affording highest character and great constitutional knowledge ' inforntoion to Ptrfinment, but he should be the last had sated to that minnrity, and that two Royal man to say 0:i:t : 1 !.3• .i.rre in any degree entitled to proscribe or to dictate. He should be the last man so jto let down the dignity of Parliament, and this be had always told these persons. All he contended I for was, that the House should enquire and legislate as seemed good to it. If there had been imprudence on the part of the Catholics, an excuse for it must he found in the disappointment of their hopes. God knows there was enough of inflammable matter in Ireland ; but had the Irish Government done nothing to increase the irritation ? Was it not known that Dublin Newspapers in the pay of Government had introduced into their columns violent abuse of the Catholics, which would not have been the case if it had been supposed to be displeasing to the higher powers. Hence mutual irritation was produced.; but put an end to the grievance, and you would put an end to the quarrels. For himself, he had to say, that if at any time on arguing this cause, he had thrown out what gave pain in any quarter, he was truly and sincerely sorry for it.—[Hear, hear!] — He had felt that he had a strong cause, and endea •oured to support it with zeal, though that zeal might have overstepped prudence. He would beg the House to consider the Catholics as humble Peti tioners at their bar, and that they had it in their power to make them most useful subjects. The No ble Lord concluded with moving— " 'rod the Howe do take into its immediate consideration, in a Committee of the whole Noose, the present state or bis Itoman Catholic soiree', in reference to the laws by which t:n•y may think themselves aggrieved." The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE was sure the House would give the Noble Lord full credit fur the motives by which he was actuated in-bringing forward this question. For his part, however, he thought that, on the Act of 1793, the Parliament should take its stand, because in it every thing was given that was consistent with the security of our establishments in Church and State, and that was necessary for the comfort and well.being of the Ca tholics themselves. The Noble Lord had alluded to the oath contained in that Act, which he assnmed was inserted contrary to the wish of him (Lord Buckinghamshire), he then having a seat in the Irish Parliament. This assumption he now distinctly dis claimed. ft was true it was net the original oath as proposed by the Government of that (lay, but it was substantially the same; and it was in fact introduced on an intimation from the Catholics that they were ready to make such declaration In return for the pri vilttes conferred upon them ; but it was the oath of supremacy which, in his opinion, the Catholics most take before they were prep tied for the reception of political power. Foreign supremacy was with them an immutable principle, but they must renounce it before he was prepared to go one step farther than the Act of 179. i. This was the opinion of the sup. porters of that Bill in the Irish Parliament, and he instanced the Noble Lord's own father, an authority that would probably weigh with hint, as there de claring that the great bultvat ks of the Constitution were a Protestant House of Commons, and a Pro tiistant House of Priors. Ire denied, therefore, that further privileges were then entitemplatod. Know. lug the opinions w:iit !I the Catholic Clergy and Laity had recently professed, he thought it would tend only to Minion were the House now to go into 6 Committee. As to the pledge which the Catholics hail received at -tie. period of the -Union, he con tended it was only a iitedge that their Claims should be taken itho cen , ideration; rind surely, consider lug the volumes of speeches Obit had been deliveltd on the subject, it coonl not be said that that coosi. d oration hail been withhn! I. Lord IIL DUNSTAN VI LLE shortly opposed the . motion. Lord GREN VILL.: said, that his opinions upon the subject of the Catholic Claims were ton well • known, and had been ton often delivered before their Lordships, to render it necessary for him to travel over the same ground ow the present occasion. In the little that he should now say, therefore, in support of the vote he intended to give, he should confine himself strictly to whatever might be consi dered as new matter in the attoal aircurnstances of the Catholics of Ireland, or in the present times. . His Noble Friend had distinctly disclaimed any con. section between his Motion and certain Resolutions which they had heard of in another place, and be Lard G. begged leave as distinctly, and as positive ly, to disclaim any similar connection with respect to his vote,that night. As long as he had the honour of holding a seat in the British Parliament, he should consider it his first and paramount duty to resist with firmness, nay with indignation, any at tempt to dictate to the wisdom and discretion of the Legislature.--[ Near, hear !]— Besides, those Re. solutions went to an event from which his mind turned with abhorrence, that of shaking the Pro testant listahlidunents of this country to their (eon dation.—Ulear, hear !]—And bad they cattle be fore their Lordships in the shape, either as Resolu tions, or as digested into a Bill, no consideration upon earth should have induced him to give them his support.--[Dear, hear n—ln voting, however, for the Committee proposed by Ida Noble Friend, his object would be, what it had always been, to give ; the subject that grave and mature deliberation which • be had long thought it necessary to give, and which every year had rendered more imperiously so. With respect to the law of 1793, upon which his Noble Friend had said he meant to make his stand, he had always been of (wisdom that that law had been framed in a spirit of: liberal conciliation, and with a deter mined desire on the rut of the Government to vs tend to every class of the subjects of these realms, it certain portion of civil freedom ; no one took a More active part in that measure than the individual itho bail now the honour of addressing their Lord. ships; and therefore he could net he suspected of a with to depreciate its value or character, when he lipid that it rested 0114411 a principle perfectly ano malous. It rested on the avowed desire to give to the Roman Catholics all that could be given them, consistently with the state of the times, and when he recollected all the difficulties of that situation, he I:ad never seen any reason to feel other than unmin gted satisfaction at the part he bore in the success of the measure. But he did not 0141 think, nor had he ever since thought, that the subject was closed, or that it rested upon awyageneral principles which would preclude any /either considerration of it.— [Hear, hear!]—Even if hb hid so thought, at that time, his opinion would necessarily have referred to Ireland as an independent and separate country ) and i of to Ireland as she now happily was, formieg integral part of the Empire. On awe grounds, therefore, he conceived that the measure of 1793 eus one which could not, by any possibility, rest in its pie_ sent situation. It had a necessary tendency to force itself upon the attention of the Legislature, and it must infallibly produce dissension and di!conteet, until Parliament consented to go lino a Committee and enquired into all the subjects connected with that vast and important quettien of Catholic Concession, not shortly and unsatkfactcnily, by sweeping reso lutions, but gravely and solemnly, as became the infinite importance of the measure. The longer that enquiry was retarded, the more arduous, the more doubtful, and the more difficult it weuld become.-- The question of securities, upon which somethinf had been said, would more properly come under dis cussion in that Committee, and theretore he would not anticipate it now, lie, for one, would carry his mind into that Committee unprejudiced by any thing that passed, aud would endeavour to view the matter-us, in his opinion, it must he viewed, not through the medium of any fixed or general princi ples, but in reference to the varying dispositions and tempers of the peop!e of England and Ireland. H e earnestly entreated their Lordships to lay .entirely out of their minds all recollection of whatever bad hems improperly said, or improperly done, by the Catholics themselves or their advisers. Toe measure, if successful, was to b! , adopted, not to gratify this or that individual, or any particular class of people, but to determine whether it couhl make more cos. tented, more free, more happy, and therefore more happy because more free, a great body of our fel. low-citizens—[Hear, hear !] —they were to coosiA der whether they could safely give that portion of civil freedom • to the Catholics of Ireland, which hitherto it had been thought they could rat ; whether it was not the indispensable duty of the Legislature not to rest upon general. principles, upon dates and epochs, but to accompany the .progress of light, of education, aud of civilization in that country, de., riving from them improved and increa , ed means of diffusing happiness, and by extending happiness; securing in return attachment and fidelity to the wel. fare of the State.—[lieur, hear !]—Thuse .were the grounds. upon which the measure was to be deli. berated, and therefore, even though he were cow. vinced that a few angry individuals spoke the sense of the nation, and even . if he believed that four or five millions of Catholics could be so unreasonable as to reject a boon and a benefit from the hands of the Legislature, because not offered in the' terms sad its, the manner :hey w ished, he should still hid their Lordships do what was right, consul. the plain path of their duty, and provide for the happiness of the people.—[llear, hear !]--It was upon that view of the subject, and upfrn those principles that he had always supported* the measure ; and on the same principle, and from the same view of what ought us be done, he should now vote for the motion of his Noble Friend. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said that his opinion upon this question was already known, and he as t sured their Lot tlships that that opinion had not un dergone any elcinae whatever ; but he did not think it necessary on this occasion to enter into the merits lof that questinn. ife opposed the motion before thu House because he did not conceive that the House could at present resolve into the proposed Committee 1 with any view to a satisfactory result; but he had another ohjectiou to this mollou, namely, that this was not II subject upon which any enquiry could Ise deemed necessary. For this was not a question iti- Ivo . lving any uncertainty' as to facts upon which in vestigation was required. The House was already aware of all the advantages and all the income niences belonging to the present system; far that !system had been too frequently discussed to allow :any ignorance or dauht to remain upon that subject. Whether, then, it was right or wrong to make tha concession required.by the Catholics, the House was quite ripe to determine without any farther enquiry. That the concessions required would involve a con siderable alteration in the Constitution of the coun try, could out be disputed, and he deprecated the idea of proposing that alteration—of sounding the alarm which such a proposition must produce, with out any statement of the remedy meant to • be lip ! plied. He agreed with the Noble Mover, tbat it would not be advisable to excite any expectation !which it was not intended to gratify. 11;ith regard to what had passed in Ireland upon this subject, he I could not pretend to be .as accuratety informed aa the liable Mom; for he was not a Member of that IGovernment at the period referred to by. the Noblb Lord. But their Lordships had the record of what passed in another place upon the discussion of the Union, and upon reference to that record it would be seen, that according to the opinion of the indiri dual who took a lead in that discussion, the Catholic Question would be left open for the consideration of Parliament, namely, that if the Union were adopted, Parliament would find it safer to concede to the wishes of the Catholics, if it should think that con. cession expedient, or to resist such. concession if it thought contrary. It would indeed be recollecred,that that point was peculiarly laboured by the individual alluded to (Mr. Pitt, as we understood). From the discussion referred to then it could'not be inferred, that any pledge or promise was held out to the Ca tholics by the proceedings of Parliament. But with out adverting further to those proceedings, he felt it his duty to withstand the present motion, because he was unwilling to hold out any expectation to the Ca tholic Body which was likely to be disappointed; and he was the more disposed to resist this motion, from the indefinite form in which it was presented to •the House. He shou'd, therefore, prefer the pro• position of some specific measure as in the year 1793, in order that the question misfit be brought before the House in a distinct intelli,;ible shape. Oa this ground, then, he stioulti frankly say, that if he were even friendly to the Catholic cause, he should object to the course of proceeding proposed by the Noble Mover ; for he should desire to have at voce laid be fore their Lordships a pri'cie statement of the nature and extent of the eta alley il to exist, as well as of the nature and extent of the remedy, which it was proposed to substitute. Althouglk he had stated thus much, the Noble Lord slid, that it was not his in tention at present to enter at large into the !relit° of this great question, but s'iould reserve his eb• servations for a future and more convenient opr,r (unity. He was, however, ou this occv.i•), IF v I -