The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-04-07 00:00:00

- i t:-••• • nr•-.." THE STATESMAN, eteding should be deemed necessary, the House was more likely to come to a fair and temperate judgment en an abstract question at to the regular motion of proceeding on the Committee, than it could do by in volving itself in questions of a personal nature. After the Speaker sat down, the subject dropped without any observation. A message from the Lords requested that Sir M. Lope; might be allowed to give evidence before their Lordships, on the Grampounil Disfranchisement Bill. The House replied that they would send an answer by messengers of their own. Mr. HEATHCOTE presented a petition front Hum berstone, in Lincolnshire, praying for retrenchment and economy. The Honourable Member expressed his entire concurreuce in the prayer of the Petition, and regretted that so farourable an opportunity for telieving the burthens of the people as the repeal of the Malt Tax, had been lately suffered to pass hi. Sir R. HERON presented a Petition nowt nu merously and respectably signed, complaining of Agricultural Distress, and praying for a reduction of taxation, from the Owners and Occupiers of Land, of Stamford, in Lincolnshire. Sir li. CLERK presented a Petition from the Sawyers of Edinburgh, against the importation of Foreign sawed Timber. Mr. MABERLY moved fur an Account of Clerks and other Persons admitted to Offices in Civil De p4rtments, since January 1, 1816, with an Account of •their Salaries, in Great Britain and Ireland. The motion was agreed to after a few words from the Inaoce Lee& of the EXcHEQUER. on whose motion an Account was ordered of the Salaries discontinued within the same period. Several Petitions were presented front the various Clerks of the Courts of Justice in Ireland, praying for coutpentiation for the loss of Fees. The Irish Coroner's Bill was read a second time, to be committed on Monday. The Church Briefs Bill was read a second time, after a few words front Mr. Curwee, Mr. Monck, and Mr. Littleton. • The Irish Treason Trial Bill was read a third time. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW proposed a clause which seas agreed to, to permit the same mode of trial and of evidence, as in cases of murder, in all cases of treasnn where any direct attempt is made on the life or safety of the King. TURNPIKE TRUSTS. Mr. DAVIES GILBERT, in rising to move the second reading of the Metropolis Roads' Bill, went ioto a history of the modes of defraying the expence of the maintenance of roads, which had prevailed in this and other countries. Ile approved of the system ei supporting the roads by tolls on them, as well as of the management by trusts, but he observed, that the vice into which this system fell, was the minute subdivision, by which economy in procuring the ma terials. and the employment of scientific aid was rendered impracticable. He urged the benefits which would arise front the present Rill, which would remedy Loess inconveniences, while it retained the advantages of the Toll and Trost system. The Hon. Member ceacliaded with steering the second reading of the Bill. Sir E. KNATCHBULL . spoke against the measure, which lie conceived quite unnecessary from the im proved state sit eiSlat the several roads were in the vicinity of the aletropolis. lie therefote moved an Amendment, that the Bill should be read a second time on that date six months. Mr. DENISON seconded the Amendment, depre cating any attempt to cast a reflection upon those at present invested with the several trusts in the neigh bourhood of the Metropolis, by whom the roads were kept in the best possible state. Mr. CURWEN spoke on the same side. Mr. F. LEWIS supported the original motion, ad mitting that the roads about London were kept in a good condition, but observing that this was done at al great and unnecessary expence, with no attention, in-' deed, whatever to considerations of economy. Mr. CALCRAFT argued against the Bill, which appeared to hitu to involve a Bill of indictment against the Oentlenten connected with the several trusts about London, by whom the roads under their care were no toriously kept in a much better state than those in any other part of the kingdom. Yet it was proposed to se t aside the system upon which these Gentlemen acted, In order to make room for the establishment of the theory of the lion. Member for Iludinyu. It was said, that there was no intention in this case to cast any slur upon those Trustees, and that it was not so thought by themselves, but if so, how came it that 30 out of 32 Trustees alluded to, had presented Petitions against the Bill ? Mr. H. SUMNER was ready to vote for the second readirig if the Bill, with the understanding, that if the Hon. Gentleman should propose to refer it to a Committee of the whole House, he would move as an aiitentiMent, that it be referred to a Select Committee. After' few words from Mr. DENNISON , the : House proceeded to divide, and the numbers were— For the motion 83—against it 16—majority for these cond resoling 67. Upon-our re-admission to the gallery, we found Mr. D. GILBERT on his legs, recommending a reference of the Bill to a Committee of the whole House. Mr...H. SUMNER moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee ; and after a short conversation between Sir B. Knatchbull, Mr. Calcraft, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. D. Gilbert acceded to the amendment. The question for referring the Bill to a Select Com tuittee was accordingly put and agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the House, en its rising, adjourn to Monday next.—Agreed se. Lord MILTON postponed his motion on Foreign Wool until after the recess. SUPPLY. Upon the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,Ihat the House do now resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. URBEVEY rose to oppose the motion. The course whist' he was about to take might not. he said, be very *gettable to the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo site, or to the House, but he felt it necessary. in the discharge of his public duty. to oppose the modes far going into a Committee of Supply. Instead of go ing on. he thought it was the duty of dm House tie retries its steps. There bad been supplies enough voted.and what gaol had been hitherto effected ? Not withstanding all tie Faith's. from all parts of the kingdom, amifilalaieg of lie roast distresses, ant praying for the strictest economical reform, the goose had still gout on voting away millions of money. had all the labours of his Honourable Friend the Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) had not produced the dimi nution of one single farthing in the public expendi tnre.—rniler these circumstances, nothing should in duce him, as far as his vote or influence in that House went, to go into a Committee of Supply. The Mem bers of that House had been galled the trustees of the people, hut they differed from all other trustees, for they themselves live,' upon the property of the people. —(llew, hear.) When the affairs of a private Gen tleman were deranged, the first thing liis trustees did was to rut off all needless expenses, and to discharge all the useless dependents and hangers-on. But here ' the trustees of the people were themselves the useless servants and hangers-on. lie had often thought that as the people of England found it was of no use to petition that House, it would he a good thing, and certianly an entertaining one, to see them rept esented by delegates at the Der of the House.' What would be the natural !en rage of delegates so sent to assert the rights of the people ? They would say, " we are come here to talk to von, and we are bold to say, that we entertain ashrewd soispil ion that you make a very good thing of us.—(Laughter). We are aware that there- are song places to the amount of I:.0,0110/. a year, which yon enjoy, and which you will never consent to forego to relieve the distresses of the people. Th's may be a very pleasant arrangement for you, but it is no laugh ing matter for us." Such was the language which the delegates of the people would naturally use. Sup posing the people to be so represented, he should like to have seen their delegates in the House during the last ten days; when his Hen. Friend the Member for Essex obtained leave, about a fortnightago, to bring in a Bill for the repeal of the Malt Tax, this was consider ed a great trumpli—it was hailed as the begin ing of better times. But he should never forget. and the people of England would never forget, the lan guage of the Noble Lord, who was manager of the Trustees. "Du not triumph too soon," said the Noble Manager, "do not halloo before you are out of the wood."—(Hear, hear.) —The Noble Lord, however, had made good his threat, •he had brought up the trustees of the people from all parts of. the country, and his Honourable Friend's majority of 25 was con verted into a majority of Sri against Lim. And this was not all, for a great Northern Grandee was made the victim of his attempt to assist his suffering country me, and had actually complained in that House that he bad lost 8001. a year for having had the hardihood to vote for the repeal of an obnoxious tax.—(Hear, hear.)—This was a flagrant breach of the privileges of that House; yet the Honourable Members for York and Montgomery, those champions of privilege, were silent upon that subject. Let al printer commit a trifling error, and the House was sure to hear enuu.th of the attack upon their privileges"; but when a gross and unconstitutional attack upon their privileges was made through the influence of the Crown, not a word was to be said upon the subject-we (Hear, hear.)—This was really enough to make them sick of privileges, and still more sick of its chassipiooe. —(Hear, hear.)—The Honourable Member concluded by moving the following Ileiolution:— " That during the present Session of Parliament, ; titions have been presented to this Howe froth e - part of this kingdom, and from every diecription of i population, containing . statements of distress hitherto unheard of in this nation, amid uniformly demanding, as one species of relief to their sufferings, the strictest possible economy in the expenditure of the public money; that the statements so made, have in every in stance been fully ronfirmed by the local information of every Member of this House, who have preseuted such petitions; and vet, notwithstanding with uiliver;al ap plications for relief, the different estimates for the pub lic service for the year have hitherto been proceeds d in, and millions of money voted fur such purposes, without any the least possible reduction whatever by this House, although repeated efforts have been made to effect the same. That this House entertains the strongest possi ble opinion, that this marked indifference of the Repre sentative B ody to the sufferings of its constituents, is mainly attributable to the following fart, viz.:—That a very numerous body of the Members of this :louse de rive for themselves, their families, connexions, and de pendents, large pecuniary provisions from the taxes of the people; and as such provisions for tl.e most part are made either for offices altogether libel or grossly , overpaid, and therefore the tittest objects for immediate extinction or reduction, so the holders or disposers of them in this House have a direct personal interest in resisting every species of economical Reform what soever; that in addition to this great permanent bar to all economical Reform, the (louse hits lately wit nessed, with the greatest indignation, the influence of the Crown displayed by its Ministers in this House in a manner the twist arbitrary, and with the express and avowed object of interfering with its Members in the, discharge of their duty to their Constituents; the Rae', of Fife, who lately held the office of one of the Lords of the Bedchamber to his Majesty, having recently de clared in his place in this House. as one of its Members, that be had been dismissed front his office as Lord of the Bedchamber to his Majesty, in consequence of having voted in this House in favour of a Bill td repeal a Tax upon Malt. " That, under all these circumstances, this House is of opinion it will better consult its own honour` and the interest of the public by immediately inquiring into the facts before mentioned, than in going any longer into Committees of Stipply to vote away the money of the people without the slightest possible prospect of relief to the country." Mr. HOISHOCSE rose to second the motion. No thing could be n.ore constitutional than the coarse pursued by Lis lion. Friend. It was not necessaryi to go back for precedents so far as the reign of queen. Elisabeth, for in the early part of the reign of Charles the First, before the struggles between that Monarch and the Parliament, Sir T. IVentworth, afterward, Lord Strafford, moved a Resolution in that House, that ply and grievances should go hand in band. Th. 47 . 1- viatial who adopted this sentiment was a man of tlefirst rank and talent in the country, and not liable to the im putation of being a heated enthusiast. In the Parlia ment, called the Pension Parliament, the attention of the House was called to what was then considered an extraordinary fact, that 2,400,000/. were voted to 24 hours, tont that House was grown familiar with initaaces in which mach larger sums were voted away in 24 hours. lie did not state this from any wish to 4igge rate the grievances of which the people bad reation to complain, and be begged to call the attention of the House to a declaration of Lord Grenville in did other House of Parliament in 1816, " that if Parliament con tinued to support the keeping up of a large standing army, and to lavish the public money as' they did, be would not trouble himself to take a part in debates which be could regard as nothing less than a farce." In the time of the Pension Parliament 24 Members rem posted as individeels who received pensions from the Crown.:- Now he (Mr. Hobbouse) on a recent division coasted himself nt3 fewer than forty-seven pensioners in a very ?mall majority. Such was the difference in this respect between the present Parliament and the notes:ions Pen shot Parliouseht, the measures of which were denounced by Andress* Marvel as calculated to leave neither liberty nor property in the country. As to the dismissal of: Lord Fife from Isis office of Cord of the Bedchamber, in consequence of the vote which he gave in that House. it was a siteaseire taken indirect opposition to the spirit of the Constitution, and in violation of the Hill of Rights, which declared that freedom of speech in debates or pro ceedings its Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned. If the speech of a Member of that Howse could not be questioned, still less ought his yore 10 be made the subject of animadiersion ; and if the Ministers of the Crown could not get up in their places, and deny the charge, he hail no hesitation in saying, that they were liable to impeachment for their conduct. The Hon. Member then proceeded to observe upon the opersidon which the influence of the Crown had in that House, which hail been growing up for many reigns, and threatened to overlay all public spirit, anti utterly de stroy the efficiency of Parliament as the organ of the national will. On this subject, he quoted a passage from a famous pamphlet on hush-money, published in the reign of William 111., which complained of the manner in which the House was officered, the effect produced upon its suffrages by emolument and expectancy, the de ceptions practised upon honest mistaken country Gentle men, and other consequences of influence which enabled the King to baffle any Bill, quash any complaint of grievance, and carry any measure that the Administra tion might think expedient. It stated that 290,000/. had been employed for these purposes, to influence the votes of Members by gratuities to themselves and relatives, but what was the case taw? Why 150,1100/. a-year was de voted to the same purpose, and raised upon the people to be divided among those who were to vote against the people's interests; it was impossible that such distribu tion of the public money should not have a bias on the minds of those who enjoyed it. He would not detain the House any long er; he did not make these observa tions with a view o f throwing any impediment in the way of the business before them, but to remind the House of what their duties were, anti what the country expected from them.—(Hear, hear). The Gallery was then cleared for a division, but in a few minutes strangers were admitted ; we toned that no division hail taken place; and Mr. CALCII A 1:"I' was on Isis legs, alluding to the stateuteet made in the House by Lord Fife, with re spect to his removal from office. He then proceeded to say, that he agreed with most parts of the Resolu tion of his lion. Friend. It could not be doubted that in the present Session of Parliament, the petitions of the people had been totally disregarded.—(Hear.)-- It was equally true that nothing like economy had been attended to in the estimates. It could not be denied either, that estahl'sliments were kept up much larger than circumstances could justify. He likewise agreed, that the influence of the Crown in that House was too mighty and too powerful, to allow any real effect to the representation of the people. But be could not agree with that part of the proposition which went in a sweeping way to deprecate the representation of tbe executive offices of Governnient in the House. Yet, he could not withhold his assent to the proposition in general, anti he hoped the Noble Lord opposite would give some explanation relative to the statement made by Lord Fife with respect to his removal. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he did not think ' be would he doing his duty f he allowed himself , so he led into a discussion on a motion which had a reference to all that had been done in the Session.- 1 His Lordship proceed at some length to ridicule the conduct of the Honourable Member ; and with respect to the declaration made by Lord Fife, he denied that be was honnd to give any explanation. In i bis dis missal the Crown had only exerted its undoubted prerogative. With respect to the vote given by the Noble herd (Fife), it was, after the declaration made by Ministers, a vote calculated to drive them out of office, and surely it could not be expected that the Mi nisters of the Crown and the officers of the State were to have different views, and pull in' opposite ways. particularly on a question of such vital consequence as one that affected the public credit, and which, had it been carried, would have been nothing less than a vir tual dismitsal of administration. Nr. CAM:RAPT explained. Mr. TIERVEY objected to the motion, on the ground that he was taken unprepared. He was not in the lionise when the statement of Lord Fife was made, and as it was differently represented, he could form no distinct idea on the subject. As to the power of dismissing the officers of the Household, it was an undoubted prerogative of the Crown. After some more observations of the same kind, the Right Hon. Gentleman stated, that although he concurred In most of the component parts of the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, yet, from the sudden manner in which the resolution had been brought down to the House, and the consequent want of preparation on Isis part to meet it, he guest withhold his support if it were pressed to a division. , Mr. BENNET supported the Resolution, and de precated the power and extent of the influence of the Crown in that House. Lord A. HAMILTON followed, and said, that what he a nderstood with respect to the statement made by Lord fife was, sot drat the giving of his vote against the Malt Tax was the ground of that dismissal, but mere that his impression was so ; he therefore could not agree to a resolution, one part of which he . eonceived not to be consistent with the fact. There was only one other observation which he wished to make. With out meaning any disrespect to Lord Fife's successor, be should like to ask what degree of credit and cha racter would attach to that successor's votes in that Mouse? The Noble Lord concluded by again urging ibe Howe to have recourse, in the resent embar rassed state of the country. to every possible reduc tion that could be made in the public expenditure. and mare especially in the military part of it. Mr. CREEVEY in explanation said, that in the Resolution he had merely stated the fact, that Lord Fife had declared in Ms place, that he was dismissed from his office for the vote he had given. The House then divided—fur Mr. Crtevey's motion 36—Against it 120—Majority. 84. On one re-admission to the liallery, we found Mr. HUNK on his legs, expressing his regret at the division that bad taken place among the Hon. Oentlemeo near him, on the late question. He re gretted to see Hon. Gentlemen, who agreed on a maim Act, dififee oa the words in which that fact was do mitred. Notwithstanding all that bad pained, how ever. %was about to anbmit to the House a Motion from IA he challenged any Hon. Member to with bold hie somint, who regarded his etre character, and tits interest of his country. Adverdsg to the civil - , - 111 • a . h in e t w re a a s teel no t t h sar l e a v r ) department parinyn l o n f i t 7 h 9 e 2. A n r r m i y 7 , 96 he ( t h e „ma tio it°h°eiexapet the ee increase rethuee UtivhialtDebape:itarritdorokrreerntdnpetiloticita:::ttheatnihadAisw:::::s.enTE:": 44,9901., at present aerie 133,9001. b e i ng an nu iseretia ' "'" took I s rlace i. in W the hen se i ve t was ntli e r ' distress which the country ewes suffering was w ilt into the account, this fact was monstrous. eici t h e House pledged itself to revise the Establiihnnia% e t the State, and to adopt a principle of economy; when - Meer that principle could be adopted, he Would oak s - Motions from day to day to compel it t 4 that • we SiFurlttitAlPe presentoccasioninanclteport ,arehce had selected om . mendation, w fm hr e bii e , • meant to move should be referred to the e nnun i usK 1 That Report be begged leave to observe, alib eng h ‘ driwn hp either by the Chancellor of the Be n h enne , or with his concurrence, and altboigh "--' carious important considerations commies ' ' n t h• tie Arch+, the Navy, and die Ordnance, ii anti * is the 'bible of the House for four years, aEs h oik . His motion would be, "That it he an instracesa la the Committee to take into consideration the . • • dation of the COmmittee of Finance to this H les t 1 i n their Sixth Report." Lord A. HAMILTON seconded the motion 0416 i happy to take the earliest opportunity of red , pledge which he gave, that he was ready to s 4 proposition for economy. Although he should an a preferred an iteetruction, to the Committee more condensed in its form, yet, coniidm Aw ing n* quarter the recommendation proceeded , be flees* l Honourable Friend bad done well mot to alter it. The CH ANCELLOIt of the EXCHEQUER °hero& that the strictest possible attention had bet= ~ yr °overmuch& to the Reports of the Pipanee ' The House must at time same time see , that the Claik; employed in the higher offices of Uoveinasent, 1 men of talent and education, were entitled to a liberal allowance than cameo clerks. •Mach would arise if persons of a different description were's . ployed in those confidential offices. Ai unfaithful w [ negligent clerk might, either from carelessness or hum malpractices, cause more mischief than lay amiss to be made in those offices could compensate for. Sir J. NEWPORT, adverting to the office of Barrack MasterAieneral for Ireland, observed, that it appeared from a Report of the Committee of 1810 or VII I, that there was a considerable deficiency in the accounts sr that public officer (Lord Tyrawly). Mr. D. BROWNE defended the character Tyrawly, than whom there was sot a more officer in the service. The Noble Lord had fall, dirM. himself from the charge which had bees mak sishill him. Sir J. NEWPORT, in explanation, observed, thathe _ meant to cast no imputation upon the character abed, 1 Trimly ; he bad only stated a fact which appeared from the Report of the Committee. Mr. W. POLE said, that the circumstance's . alluded to respecting Lord l'yrawly occn rred while he(Mr. Pele)ou in office in Ireland. It was found, that not that Sale Lord, but some persons under him were unwilling tem tern in their accounts. He was, however, happy is state, that Lord Tyrawly bad, since that period, mole up his accounts much to his honour, and that there Ira a balance in his favour.—(Hear, hear!) Mr. KLIMA expressed a hope that ummo lime would be introduced to amend the Inn of the Illmuu able Member for Corfe Castle (we believe Si %loos Bill). The provisions of that Rill were , a most enormous charge to the country. The nisei Umber , wu of opinion, that it would be wi more expedient to postpone entering into a dion of the estimates in detail, until the Rouse wWW into a Committee. Mr. HUSKISSON suggested to the Hoare* Mover of the Resolution whether it would not he ewes convenient to withdraw the motion, and to more that the whole of the Finance Report, from which he led taken his extract, should be referred to the Committee! Mr. HUME said he would gladly accede to any the which united the convenience of the House, but the ime• nourable member would recollect, that the Report is question was upon the Navy, and therefore he did mist wish to refer it to a Committee upon the Army Betl• mates. After a few words from Mr. Hosaisson and Mr. W. SMITH, Mr. 111.:ME withdrew his motleys, and it was 'rim ed that the hixth Finance Report be referred is a Committee. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The Speaker having left the Chair, the House resided itself into a Committee of eupply. Lord PALMBILSTON proposed that a sum not et. cresting 50,41 e/. les. ed. be granted for the charge aid allowances of the office of Secretary of War tier this year. Colonel DAVIES, after complimenting Lord Pala. ston upon the manner in which lie conducted the olfe cial duties of his office, objected to the grant; the 's perm of this office was at present one-third mere, me in some instances double what it was i s 18116, Was ti" duties of it were tenfold more than they now are. The whole sum voted for this office in 1806, me 25,000.• and now that sum was more than doubled, though the am' try was in a state of profound peace. After some fer ther observations to the same effect, the Hon. Membw concluded with moving as an amendthent, that the wo. of 45,000/. should be substituted in the rem a 30,4151. 16s. Bd. Lord PALMERSTON maintained, that even Mist the year 1806 as the standard, the presest estimate could not he objected to on the ground of e xtravagae o l..... for in Ihll6 the expenees of the o Mee aumetett 11 50,1432/. 34. I Id., whereas it was now 50,418/. Colonel DAVIN said be would stake his credit 0 the assertion that the charge for this department is Iho6, did not exceed 25,000/. Mr. HUME thought be could slew that the NO Lord had increased the expense of his office is well way ; sod that even if be bad 20,0901. more allowedly him, he would find employment for it according is NI present system. He was of opinion that the eseelo the o ffi ce might safely be reduced one half; bet, 011 bed 1 1 a loaf was better than no bread , l i e would supperl'w amendment of his Hon. Friend. Lord PALMERSTON defended the existing wait wents of his office, and maintained that every poo_ reduction had been made, consistently with the FOY' interests. lii ra r H. u P atua RNrisL4 and alsoLeom of thelainedo amoun t f the amount ofh onn:o e f is r on ra_tb; master's establishment. It seemeil to him that there els, & det e rmination on the part of those persons cognectee with the whole of the military system to resist eveti species of reformation, and every plan that might: likely to promote economy. If the whole matter le examined, with a view to get rid of the presest.systw.: many olicee might be consolidated , others got rol of al together, and mach expense saved to the public. . Lord PALMERSTON said , t hat the I risb beard W, ete rnising military agnate was established by ties" Pangaea. AfterDA %' lL UKEY BENNET, and Lord PALMERSTON. s a . fe a w ad word eme s fropurMthre.rWombservar. SMlT io t i rd frogo li k. i t erces Mr si . T ty . o W f l eco ll o N my sa . id ib , t a h l a w t so w e ee tTr vo lY te thel ivith he sh fee e l it searahletieutlessu opposite. Va.; .6 • -.MIME •, ~` A Iv ti h