The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-06 00:00:00

ground of conferring a benefit on the agricultural rests...had completely failed of its effect. Sir U. BURRELL, in a few words, supported the tision, and bore testimony to the truth of the Hon. Gen tleman's assertion, as to the tax having failed of its ef fect; with respect to the interests of the native grower, the importation having become greater than ever since it. enactment. The Petition was ordered to lie on the Table. BOROUGH OF GRAMPOUND. • •1111 r. S. WORTLEY rose to more the Order of the 14y fOr•receiviug the Report of the Committee on the bill of disfranchising firampound and transferring the elective franchise to Leeds. He said that although the Noble Lord who introduced - the bill hail declined . to proceed with it oo account of the qualifying clause which he (Mr. W.) proposed having been carried, yet , •he felt himself bound to go on with it. He, however, • t'veiehed to make some alteration in that clause, and for • • • b at purpose thought it would be the better way for • * • •:the House to allow the Bill to he recommitted and • %printed, to give Members an opportunity of thoroughly considering its provisions. The alteration which he proposed to make was, that instead of the elector being required to rent a house at the actual yearly ea - due of 201. it should be provided, that the elector should be a householder paving scot and lot, awl rent ing a tenement, whether of 51. or 10/. or 15/. which with land occupied by him might amount to the yearly value of 201., and only where lie bad no land should it be necessary for the yearly value of the house alone to amount to that gam. The Hon. Member concluded by moving that the Order of the Day be read, and the bill recommitted and ordered to he printed. Mr. A BERCROM BIE wee of opinion that the bill ought to be printed before the re committal, especially the new clauses. Mr. S. WORTLEY observed, that it would be bet ter to go first into the Committee,•and have the whole printed. An Hon. Memaire stated, that he was one of those who had voted for the amendment, which raised the goalification from 10 to 20!. hecanse he thought that • such a qualification would establish a mode of election, which, without being inconveniently extended, would be sufficiently popular ; but as it was proposed to re commit the bill, he thought it would he right to take aJtantage of the intervening time, and procure an ac tual rate of the value of houses in Leeds, that it might be seen accurately how matters stood. Mr. LOCKHART made an observation not audible in the Gallery. Mr. S. WORTLEY stated,' that there were no less than 1690 houses in Leeds, of the yearly value of 201. Mr. HOBHOUSE said lie was not present when this subject was debated on a former night, or lie would have felthimself bound to support the Noble Lord who brought in the Bill, who, it was known, had sincere views with respect to Reform, as far sfe•they wended, but his feelings towards it were somewhat different when he saw it in the hands of those who were notori ous for mot entertaining any such views. However, he did sot mean to oppose the Bill even under the present circumstances, though, from the beginning, he did not think it would answer the end proposed, much less wilily the wishes of the country.—But he thought it useful and necessary, that even those• who, though intending to go much greater lengths in the doctrine of Reform than the Noble Lord, should come forward aid shew that they were willing to accept of any: thing, however little, when they could not get all that they desired. That little which the Bill offered to the people in its original shape, was however made still less in the bands of the Honourable Member fur Yorkshire; but the Bill ha I not lost all its distinctive character, it still bore marks of its origin, and per -1 aps it was better that it should come from the lion. tientlenian titan the Noble Lord. The principle was not altered, it was only shaped so as to he rendered more attractive in the eyes of the Uentlemen opposite. 1t was deserving of being c Matre pulchri, !ilia pitlehrior." [a 'nimbi Having said thus much as to the Bill, lie could not omit that opportunity of malting some observations on . what had been said on a former night, when be was absent, relative to the character and conduct of electors paying scut and lot, but particularly the electors of Westminster. The attack might have more weight Fad it come from a less suspicious source, hut he less regretted his own absence, beraus;, bad he been pre- sent, lie might have been led by the irritation of the moment to have treated an insinuation made at that time, with the sovereign contempt it deserved, and he might have bet-nal:0 induced, much as he respected the llonouraLle Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring), not to have paid him all that deference which lie could . always wish to give to one, to whose knowledge and abilities the country hail Leen often indebted ; but really the Hotioure"e Meniber had gone a little too far when he said that the electors of Westitilthier would not give their rotes to any candidate who could not lath to them a great deal of nonsense. lie did not see how the qualification by scot and lot necessarily produced such a consequence; but he would tell him, that when he arraigned the character of the electors of Westminster in this way, lie did it under ignorance of the subject lie was talking abon;.—(Hear, .tear.)—He would tell him, that for independence, - letegrity. and discernment, unless in the titmice of one Representative, there was no body of inen who de served more highly of their country than the electors of Westminster. The manner in which they gave their - roes was not such as another Honorable Member had stated. There was nu bribe looked for in the pay ment of pour-rates to qualify them to vote. Ile knew where the Honorable Member bad received his in • .Liamation s . but he did not hesitate to say, that it came Irons a source that was false and infamous. He (Mr. 11.) was enabled to state that there was a Gentleman . . .•; *lab in the House, who, if the Petition which oats pre ie6ted against his awn return hail been persevered in, -.would bare 'hewn such items of expense on the part ' •of the popular candidates for the last three elections •In W-eistminster, as were wholly new to Committees shat•liouse. He would have shown that in a place - • irlitrie there were 15,000 electors, who, during 15 " Illyi were carried up to the poll, not a penny was ex . ,pended but in a I,gitiniate manlier, for printing adver tisements, hirin • g rooms, and other objects absolutely ... necessary in contested election, ; every thing was open fair-•-uot an item of expense but what was legally ac anted. for ; and the charge svbich bad been so un ,eidethedly .ssi?de wis a libel and a.ealumny not only • • -. • (Wei people of gestatinster, but on the people at •••• .4arg i s. at • least on all betties of electors whose • .ti iglit•• et lettag depended upon the payment of .e.ft • . : 11 .; • 4 : ' worry for it, be... _ _ _ led Hon. Member bad done—to speak of him is Isis absence;, but he could not help it, as those sort of Magi emtld ttot ' keep cool.—(A laugh.)—He had stated, that the canal-. dates for Westminster had no chance of success unless they talked nonsense to their constituents.—(A taught* the Ministerial Beeches.)—These were bard words, but when the House heard the comment with which they were accompanied, It would appear (bat— Mr. BANKES rose to order. He slid that it was dis orderly to refer to any statement as a misrepresentation which might baveoecurred in a former debate, when the Member who was allegro!. to have wade it was net pre sent to support it, or explain. The SPEAKER said, it certainly was the rule of the House that a Member should not refer to a former de bate, in which there might have been an incautious tont representation, when the ordinary disadvantage of such reference was coupled with the absence of the Member to whom it was attributed, and who, had he been present, might possibly show that the usis-statemeut was unin tentional. Mr. HOBIIOUSE proceeded, and said he was always ready to pursue that line of conduct which appeared most agreeable to the opinion of the Chair and the usages of the House. At the same time it was very hard that he should. in his absence, hare been alluded to as one who was in the habit of talking nonsense. There was, how ever, a way of putting the matter without violating the orders of the House. and he was resolved that the ob servations of the lion. Mernher for Curie Cottle (Mr. 13ankes) should not have the effect of preventing alto gether what he was about to say, though it would tansy him to change his manner of putting it. lie would say then to those Gentlemen who objected to the right of voting being allowed to people who paid sent and lot, and who supported an almost unl . ted taxation, and who said that to such people no man si as recoutinenslab!e but on the score of his nonsense, that they wade a very great mistake; what was nonsense to one man, might appear sound wisdom toanother, and that might account why it was that what was thottelst wi-dot;; within doors, sometimes appeared no Netter than folly without. 'flit people were perhaps more competent to discover , wis e. her a man was talking nonsense than time lion. Member. for Taunton supposed i and Übe would only make the ex eriment, and try what lie could do on a popular 'tasting , he would find that there was no place u here fallacies or absurdity were sooner detected, and be might Iwo that lie carried his own commodities in that way to a bad market.—(Fries of " Ilear," and lammehter.)—Those who made such attacks as he was obliged to ;animad vert ulion, on the people at large, made a hail return for their discernment in electing them, if the repre sented popular places, particularly such a one as Taunton. In that place, where, of course, no non sense was ever spoke, be believed it had once hap pened that the popular candidate had entertained Isis constituents in quite a classical style, by having car ried before him a loaf as large as a house, summontsted by four Cupids (loud laughter). Now bail as West minster was, absurd as its taste was represented to be, he did verily believe, that a loaf twice as large, null double the number of Cupids, would not obtain the ingenious Candidate a single vote (a laugh). Ile did not mean to say positively that this had occurred, but he spoke of it from good authority. But it was worth remarking, that the Honourable Gentleman and others, who aroused time Candidates for Southwark and Westminster of talking nonsense, were always ready to Ratter their own pretensions to good sense, by passing encomiums on time wisdom of the house ; this was no thing else than panegyrising their own eloqttettee and capacity, but there was as little modesty in it as )mfg went. By adopting this practice they ran the rush of converting that house into something very like the Pari ilia, of Fools, where every man fancied II • 4••• in 0111 possession of all wisdom, knowledge and dignity, to the exclusion of all other persons beyond time sacred pre cincts of such a privileged and happy assembly. Well might they then become deaf to the groans, the hisses, and the laughter of their fellow coontremen, whenever they unhappily imagined that that nisdomms hail gone out of doors. There was another point which he wished to observe upon. It had been sai.l, that the candidates in Westminster and such places used language which they would be ashamed to use in the' presence of Gentlemen. how, what was o r was not becoming a lientleuien was matter of (yn'', im. What appeared gentlemanlike to one man might out be so to another ; but with respect to himself lie coald only say, that there was nothing is hick be had sail on the hustings of Westminster, which he would nut he ready ' to repeat in that House ; and lie was proud always to avow, that when lie first offered himself to the electors, lie had given a pledge from which he would be shamed to retire—(blear, hear). 1% ith regard to that indivi dual Bill, lie congratulated the country oa time pro gress which reform had made; this was pretty evi dent from the fact, that when Gentlemen of the monied interest opposed any propo s ition of Reform, there was not wanting Jletuhems of Noble ;IA Illustrious Fami lies to speak in its favour. This was consolatory to the people. It taught them round %%Isom they ought to rally—it pointed omit their natural defenders, ..;:.: gave them reason to believe that when the time c..ius they would not be wanting to them and their can-r. Never did the great expediency of ltefarimi appear more evident than in the present time, woe!' Spain, Naples, and Portugal, were choosiug Com:- stitutions for themselves ; and not guitt , s to th::t of Great Britain, but were adopting Astiatitet %t hick they thought would better secure to them Cie emiov: ment of their rights ; and then the Allied Soli-reigns said, " Don't let those people tune the Spanish Con stitution, give them the English one in preference, it will give ims less alarm." Knowing what tls semi silents of the Allied Sovereigns :verc with res! met t o the liberties of the people, im was m ;Icy to see what this meant. It was easy to see that they did not hiow t h e Constitution of England—cleat they were ignorant of its essential virtues—of its old and glorious principles —of its guarded rights and its powers, jealoa 4 of ems. croachtneut.—(clear, hear.)--No, this is as out the Constitution that they meant. Theirs was a inure novel one, and one which th. Gentlemen opposite meant always ready to call matchless, and he agreed with' them. It was indeed matchless in rotten buronair * matchless in sinecure places—matchless in penssruper and placensen—(Hear.)—Those Gentlemen ha ll*. night given time country a proof of their regard for the principle of time Constitution, in their decision on at previous Bill (the Newington Vestries. Mill.) 'flier: were very tender of the orders and prit..ileges of die' House, and yet 124 of thew bad voted fur cutting oft the privileges of 30,000 persons, not in the present time alone, but to all posterity. Such was the deli cacy of the House with regard to the rights of the pa rishioners of Newington, and yet were they very tardy and scrupulous in trenching upon the franchise ist the Electors of Urathpounal, though cunt icted of gross and corruption. It would be well, if so careful as it always was of its . those of the Crown, would always feel u indisposed. to give up thus which belonged so the subject.--(Hear, hear.)—He concluded by observing, that, let the Hill take *hat shape It would, he, al though a Radical Reformer, would give it his support. Mr. T. VOU HTENAY, adverting to some language which had fidlen from the Honourable Member. said, that when be mentioned the circumstance of the can didates paying the poor rates to qualify the elector, and which the Honourable Member stated to have come from a source false and infamous, lie did not kwean to apply it to that Honourable ttentkman is par -ticular. He heard the fact, and he believed it to be true. lie n-as nut in the habit of keeping company With such persons as those who could have given fake and infamous information, and lee threw back on the Honourable Member that expression of sovereign Contempt which he had so indiscreetly used. Mr. HOBHUUSE said, that he .:Id th'.tik the mis representation was applied to the candidates and elec tors of Westminster; but he did not mean to apply to the Honourable Uentleman himself the terms false and infamous ; it was the source front which the information came, told which be could not help think ing se. Mr. COURTENAY explained. Mr. HUME corroborated the statements of Mr. llohlsouse with aspect to the expences of the West minster Election, the accounts of which he hail been along with a gentleman of another parish, called upon to audit by the Coustittee, on an election which termi nated in the return of Lord Cochrane and Sir Francis Burdett. lie found all the items perfectly fair and correct, on that and some subsequent occasions. He stated that, the electors of Westminster would feel in• suited by such an offer as to pay their poor rates. Such things might have, indeed, been attempted in the cause of the Uoyernment candidate. As to the Bill, be was friendly to it, but wished its principle bad been more popular. Mr. 11. UURNEY thought the Bill might do some good; but would have preferred the Bill as introduced by the Noble Lord to that as amended by the Member fur Yorkshire. '1 he Order of the Day was then read ; the Report was brought up by Mr. Brogden ; on the motion of Mr.S. Wortley the Bill was then re-committed; in the Committee several amendments were introduced ; and the !louse having resumed, the report was received and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Friday next.—The Bill, as amended, was ordered to be printed. An flux. Meatnel gave notice of a motion for the 12th of April, for leave to brine in a Bill to regulate Acceptances of Bills of Exchange. Mr. SYKES presented a Petition from the Ship Owners of Hull against any alteration of the duties on deal.—The Petition was referred to the Committee on Foreign Trade. Mr. BEAUMONT presented a Petition from Own ers and Occupiers of Laud in Northumberland, calling ;he attention of :he House to the present distressed state of the agricultural classes.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. It. WILBRAHANI gave notice, that on Thurs day he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to regu late the attendance of Jurors at Assizes. The Iteprts of the Committee upon the Nova Scotia Trade and New South Wales Duties' Bills were re ceived and the third readings fixed for to-morrow. Mr. IaWI.BURN moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the African Company Abolition Bill. After a short conversation between Mr. Hume, Mr. liouLsoars, and Mr. W. SMITH, the Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed to-morrow. The Orders of the Day for the second readings of the Attorneys' Fees (Ireland), and the Glass Duties' Bills, were then read. Each went through a second reading, anti was committed.—Reports ordered to be received to-morrow. HORSE TAX. Mr. LCSHINCITON moved that the House do re solve itself ioto a Committee on the art imposing a tax on horses employed for the purposes of has- ba ofl Mr. Cif !MEN urged the imperative necessity of abolishine the tax, as he thongiit that every possible relief ought to be afforded to the agricultural interest in its present distressed s tate. Any principle was to be deprecated, the tendency of Which was to add to the romiber of those labourers who were receiving pa rochial relief. The tax in question was peculiarly severe, inastrincli as it was unequally proporiocril.— (Hear, hear.) --Besides, it was to be observed, that the a4ricu:tural estimates were now ma& upon the same trair as when the farmers were in a sate of pros perity. 1 his was not to be borne. lie thought, that very large savings might be made which would all'ord considerable relief to the agriculturist. He tboogi:t. moreover, that litany substitutes might be found for taxes which were found to be oppressive.— iMiout; as he considered the Game Tax, still he should prefer that that Tax should he raised from three to tour L uineas, rather than that the Agriculturist should L' , ueLdied down and crushed as lie was. The Tax on oreign 'fallow he likewise thought might be ratted win three guineas to ten pounds per ton. fiesaw no glaim that Russia had upon us for any peculiar indul gence. The Honourable Member concluded he num ,- ig, as an amendment, a' that it be au instruction to the Committee to wake provision fur the repeal against the Duty on Horses solely employed in husbandry." Sir L. BURRELL supported the Amendment, and said !te considered the tax as oppressive as it it had ken impured on the cart, or the plough, or even on the labourer himself. A ;11einher. whose name we could nGt learn, said te wished tl.e tux abolished. The rum the whole duty spu horses brought into the Exchequer was very trifling, being only -110,1:00/. annually, and it war now pivpuscd to do away only a small part of that sum. He would suggest a tax upon the transfers of Bank Stock, as one that might very fairly be Adopted. p‘ant.Mr. LOCK lima thought that nothing could be reprelsensil,:e than a measure which went to im pose a tax upon a man who was already ruined. It appeared that Ministers were nut aware of the extent of distress which prevailed among the agriculturists; it would seem that they entertained doubts on the suh ject.•for he understood that they had sent persons through Its; country to ascertain whether the represen- THE ST T . AN. lute- ,t and lot. He did not set the Hnoootinble wile of briber! an Member for Taunton then in his place. He was tihiftillsoo, "bile le,„P!' sorry for it, because it obliged him to do that whit% the o ws Kea, end ti 4. ~~ Cations made in the House were t rue . was t 'd things would find their own level—ye s; b ut :h a t son of level would it be ? It would he the level whi c h rtes ocean found after a violent storm, a s tormh commit devastations on every thing which 1 1 , 64 that campy/4k its reach. He was convinced that nothi ng , torild b e worse than to remain in the state in wait* tio. Sir C. BURRELL explained. . *etc Mr. URENFELL referred to the general dame the Loan/has, by which it was provided that mist s .; dty n u binit sh t o ei tt i l w d h lse eth i e n r 7o u se n d de st oc k ; o r n si t i r c a h ns c r i e r rs cut o s f staoc m h position of such a tax would not be a manifest In let % go o e f a p i n i bl r i t c be fai l t i b o ? n —: m H e e tn a i r , , er he:r i. .) ll,ll tc. inctoontheeivanwesi it The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ti t o ot tiun at large. it would be more c a n did o f —-- ft mu, draw the present motion. At presentite was pared to say that a substitute might not fo g a fat the tax in question, though he held out no lop is that kind. He c.mplained that this propmbh m ee l brought forward without notice. Colonel DAVIES expressed his surprise at 0, 40 t. trine of the lion. Member for Oxford, resp ee ti" the imposition of a duty on transfers. lie would be an open breach of public faith. H e yams. tunished that, in all the arguments he had heard sp it this subject, he bad beard nu one talk of 'ret merit, lie was prepared to say,that o w f t h h e e n o t u hr :j .l ie n es , Estimates should come before the House •he wow 1,, able to thew that double the amount Otitis ta t a l i g l it be saved by retrenching in that part tabllshment al. it ..—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MONCh concurred in thinking that the uert effectual means of relieving the distress which pressed on the country would be retrenchment of expe llee mk t reduction of taxation. Mr. HUSK ISSUS argued that the most ronveniest mode fur the lion. Gentleman to proceed would bs take an opportunity of moving. for the repeal of tie duty altogether. The instruction width the M IL Member had moved would he inconsistent with tie object of the Committee. Mr. BENNET supported the motion. Mr. LUSHINOTON pointed out the ahcurditr of sending an instruction to the Cvmmittee, Ir:iirb pro posed the repeal of a smaller, while it left the larger tax in operation. After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT, sad Sir M.*. DLKT, M r. CHIMER explained, and the Housediritletl, For the instruction - - - chi Against it - - - Majority against the instruction —57 The House then went into a I ornmitter.:eml th e R e . solutions for the continuance of the duty overt agreed to. The Report to be received to-noorr..w. The Report of the Committee on Irish Cones of Jnstice was received, and ordered to he re: et - 1 4N i Committee cf the whole House on Fritl.ty. On the motion for postponing the Committee of Supply till Wednesday, Mr. BENNET wished to know, whether it was in tended to bring on the discus‘ion of the Army Esti mates on Friday ? The Estimates Oct:Iv11i were hardly in the hands of Members; and the papers which had been moved ter, and nhich were necessary to illustrate those Estimates, were not produced. i's. less they were presented, he should oppose the dis cussion of the Estimates on Wedbesday. After a few words from Mr. LUSIIINGTON, rhich were nut audible in the Gallery, Mr. HUME observed, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, at the °potting of the Session, Lid stated. that there would be a reduction on the c..p..mhture of the present year of a million. Itut it iv :1111 lie sees. on taking the Estimates of the re.y, 'i!scy, and Ordnance, which had been presented to the !loose. that th.s reduction was not e than 201%00, Those Estimates were, in fact, hither than the Esti mates of Itfl9. They tiere a little lower than those of Isql, which the !louse knew had exceeded tilim 1 bill by a million. It was necessary, that before the House discussed the Estimate s, they shon:d have be fore them the Accounts u bleb had been moved fur of the Yeomanry and Volunteers. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE'YER said it would he necessary that the Army Estimates s i o uold proceeded with on Wednesday. lie looped the papers moved fur would be produced before that thy. 'nue Committee of Supply was line , ' for W r dursdsT. The Irish Chancery Court Bill w..at throagls Committee. 'the Report was received :owl ordered to he taken into further consideration on ,lomlsty. The Report of the Lunatics Stuck Tra:tsf. r Bill was agreed tu. TR INSFER OF STOCK. Mr. CI:ILW EN said, lie liver roar with more pa r fat feeling's than he now did, accused as he was of @hewing in Pile motion, which it was a dee to make, little regard to private property and public ere-lit. however, did not admit the justice of the charge, bet it was fair to avow, that in 1111 l ring Sor an accusal at the Stuck transferred at the Bark of England, in tie last ten years, his direct purpo'se was to point it eat as an object of taxation. The first Loan Art which passed itt . 2.4e mils of William and Marv, contained a choose in which it was said, that the anuoity paid 10 itxkliehlic creditor should be exempt f•uta ail lout bens. .1111 this, Pte aoutttell whether Parliament 1.311 not ex ' corded its powe'r, fur there was an inherent ce:tessity in :the nate re of all Government, that property should far for the protection at it. .He contended that ever . If there had been no instance in whirl, a tax had beet. imposed on it, it could not claim an exenytion, batik fact was, it had been subjected to the Property TO , and was non- subjected to the begeec Do v. There were grare authorities which supporte,l d m in sal ing that it should take its share of the bur:hens of at country. lit the rase of Clerkenwell, is the reign et George I. the Judges declared, Got properly in ll'' the funds might be made avail a ble to do ef pour. And in a case from Norwich, I.‘od Ellenb. - rough distinguished motet- in the (tends Iron lenst et this' 6,l.mo:inert, O a t it con , bond ; and stated, that it w ould be chargeable , poor rates, but (ruin 11 nut be shewn in any instance to be visible propettY• arising within a particular parish. These tied; - rations which 'hewed that tile Clods were. i 1: principle, chargeable , shewetl that they were farl.• chargeable with Taxes. But if the Fumlboldei• could plead an exemption, they should be the Ow class to forego it, as it was so much their interest to encourage the payment of h e Taxes from w hich detived lunch. It was sail, it buds,woul be s sa fair 1, tax the Fund holder to a ce rtain degree, t so