The Statesman. — London, England, 1820-06-28 00:00:00

• • • 77 , in quiry be a Committee of the whole lionse. Is i• o i d • g that the first subject in the realm should he mil .1 lief trial by the Were spite dilit of the Minister, u ithunt taliasuent interposing any authotitv of its ono ? The „iyi e Lord has asses •.cd. that the tkeision of the Com mittee twist be one, that it must necessarily he in favour a t proceeding. lint the C ttee may report, either Cast the grounds are insufficient, or that there are iiilli rabies connected with the evidence which render it ad visable 1114 to proceed. His argument on the subject of iopeachuient is against the whole practice of Parlia seat. I have looked at the precedents, anti I find that 't ie proceedings by Bills of pains and penalties are, nine es t of ten of them, in tamest which might have been . matter for inspearliment. I have heard the speeches of t i e Counsel at the Bar. and able as they were, they did riot contain rive word which applies to the present flues :ion. I agree with them in thinking that the Illustrious ladiviilual and her Counsel ought to have time to collect the ev id en ce, and even that they ought to hate their :I.Jice as to the time. Rut now there are no charges ~,,,,m eacad . MI we ask, is, to refer the Papers to a Committee, in order that the Committee may i eteem i ne whether any charge should !me preferred or w it. If the Committee determine that we ought to proceed, then n ill be the time for her Majesty's I mood to ask fur delay. The Noble laird has al indid , o the ill credit sit Secret Committees, hut I will 1 i ii!„tti.ile I ran obtain your attention, hear nitliout op uo.ing any argnment grounded on clamour and discon tent, whether without doors or it ithin, for the purpose of setting aside the practice of our ancestors. lie has also alluded to tire Members of the Committee. They were selected without reference to political opinions, as was proper in such a cast; anti I will ask, w (tether any one who Las read the Dames, can entertain a doubt that they will act like honest and conscientious men ? I wish, to say one word upon what fell from a Noble Baron the other night with regard to a Right Rev. Prelate. That Right her. Prelate is as ignorant of the 'lndents of the bag as the Noble liarun himself; and as for the 'mils con of her lajesty's name from the Liturgy, all the blame which may attach to the advice must belting to the Exe:utive Government. I have now ati , ivered most of the Noble Lord's argnments: all I request is, that von uill not be deterred by the cries of faction front doing what von conscientiously think ought to be done; that you trill refer the Papers to a Secret Commitite, not to 1 u try the individual, but to determine hether aey species of proceeding should take place upon them. Lord ERMINE said he wished to give his opinion on the question at that early period of the debate, be cause he was the only person on that sl ,l e of the House who had originally voted for a Secret c..iiimittee. His opinion with risrect to the propriety of that vote was nut siere changed, but be differed from the proceed ings of the Noble Lords opposite in many regrets, so far as to render it impossible for him to continue longer on the Committee. When the Committee was first ap pointed he certainly felt great reluctance to be nomi nated as one of its Membera. Certainly he did not think. that according to the statute of Edward 111., there could he any impeachment. The House of C 1111111 l one might, it was true, impeach ; but their Lordships were the Judges, and would not consent to any proceeding which the law of England would not justify. He looked, however, to probable contingencies ; and he thought then as he thought now, it was not probable the Rouse of Commons would prefer any impeachment fur taisdetueanonr. But what was the state of things at present?? It was impossible when the Committee was nominated to foresee the turn which affairs had taken. Per the kinwg4,:cussuassas ganorally, Good for many MeinVers of it individually, he entertained great re spect ; bat- he confessed his surprise at the proceeding they bad adopted. He had already stated his opinion on the * sion of her Majesty's name in the Liturgy. When he looked at the Act of Uniformity, hr doubted if ally power existed in the Crown to direct that omis sion. The words in the Act were very strong. They stated, " that the names should be altered and changed, and suited to the occasion." It was evidently intended, however, only that the names should be changed, but not that the individuals should be omitted. From the terms of the Address voted to her Majesty by the House of Commons--(here his Lordship read the Itesolntion of the flouse)—it was absolutely impossible that the Queen could acted: to the wish herein expressed. Her Couns 1 hail last night declared at the bar, that the Queen demanded the right, which any other sub ject possessed, of a public trial. When his (Lord Enkine's) name was added to the Committee, he hail no idea that be should be asked to do what was con sidered " derogatory from the dignity of the Crown, and injurious to the best int. rests of the empire." All that he expected to be called upon to do was, to ex amine the nature of the evidence contained in his Ma jesty's communication. He considered it as a kind of indulgence to the Illustrious Individual in qnestion; since, if a Secret Committee were to determine that there was nothing against her, no calumniating tongue could have injured her character: and if, on the con trary, the Committee were to determine that the evi dence was sufficient to justify a proceeding, that pro ceeding must take place openly before the House and the country. Now that her Majesty insisted on a public trial at twee, the case was different, and he should unquestionably vote for his Noble Friend's motion. It was impossible for Parliament now to re cede, unless the Queen consented to :melt a step. ThiLoatiCnaxcati.on was anxious to state to their Lordships the reasons by which be was actuated in the coarse that he took on the present oreasinn. Much fuel been said by the Noble Earl who proposed the re -etitsding of thi it Lordships' Order, on the nature and character of Secret Committees. He begged to say, in the most impressive manner in which he was capable aaying it, and be wished that he had a voice which would extend from one end of his Majesty's dominions to the other, that it was x most abominable and unjust reproach on his Majesty's Ministers to suppose that they would wish this thing to be ever disposed of by What was called a S ecret Committee in the offensive sense of the word. He would go further. If it were proposed to bring in a Bill on the subject into Parlia ment without a previous investigation, to that propo sition he would never consent. It bad been argued, that Ministers had laid what was called the green bag • tut the table of Parliament, because they were desirous of shrinking from their constitutional responsibility. - Unless he bad mistaken the whole Parliamentary his 'Wry of the country, and be could assure their Lord ships that he had looked at it wijh great care and at minion, there bad been numerous cases in which a Se lect Committee bad been appointed to interpose between a troposition made to the House, and the act of the House. Wm, was hip to he told in the present instance, that be muse it might by possibility turn out on investigation biter, a Committee, that there might be ground for an THE STATES] impeachment, for sending the case to a trial, or for ori ginating a Bill of pains end penalties, or a Bill of At tainder, that therefore there should not be an investiga tion? If the Home insisted on Ministers bringing In a Bill without a prey' investigation by the House, they would surrender all the functions which Parliament had exercised for centuries. He certainly hail seen in one of those morning publications which misled the pablit nearly as often as the morning Caine. that a Bill of At tainder could not originate in that House; there could not he a greater mistake. la answer to the general aspersions which the. Noble Earl had thought proper to cast on Secret C • tees, he would tell the Noble Earl, that high as was his rank, and great and deserved as was the general estimation in whit h he was held, that he would not on that night have been in that House freely expressing his sentiments in debate, hail it nut been for the labours of some of the Secret Counnitters that be had attacked. He (the Lord Chancellor) con sitirred that the proposed Secret ::::: ittee was a shield and protection to the Queen. If he were told that the Queen did not choose to have her conduct submitted to it, he would answer, that it was his duty to tell her Ma jesty, in the most respectful manner in Which he could do so, and to tell any other Queen Consort who tuight he placed in her Majesty's situation, that he must support the appointment of a Secret Committee, on the principle that her Majesty ought to be better defended than by the re spostsibility of Ministers. He knew that a number of most excellent and virtu o us men attached uneasiness to the consideration that the individual Members of a Secret I 'ommittee might subsealuently be called upon to *lt as Judges on that into which, as Members of that Secret Committee, they hail previously inquired. Bust how could that be helped, if a public Committee were to enter into that previous inquiry: Mel it ever been con tended, when the House of Co 11111 l 0114 rattle to a deter mination to impeach, that no Member should vote for that impeachment who hail been un the Secret Commit tee, to whom the previous investigation of the circum stances had been referred ? If such a principle were established, all proceedings of such a nature must ori ginate without the benefit of a previous inquiry into the grounds for them. With respect to the speeches of the Learned Counsel yesterday at the Bar, it certainly could not he imputed to hint (the Lord Chancellor) that lie was a velocipede Judge, or averse to proper delay; but lie et say, that considerable as was the ability dis played in those speeches, they Jill not, from beginning to end, furnish a single argument in favour of any delay in the present stage of the proceeding. If the charge were made, and the witnesses adduced, it would be very different. Although lie certainly contended fur the reins iple which had been a hundred times established in practice, that a Peer might enter into a previous inquiry, in a matter on at hick he might be subsequently called upon to judge, he admitted that the probability that he :night thus be afterwards called upon to judge, e nuld render him extremely anxious in the pre vious investigation. In the words of one of the high est legal authorities which this country could boast, " he would make a covenant with God and himself, that neither affection nor any oilier undue motive should press on his judgment." He is •suld do his duty as he trnsted he always had done, to the best of his ability; keying the consequences to the reflection of his countrymen, and hoping that (Sod would pardon him if he did wrong. The Marquis of La sfseowx most so!serinly declared, that if he could bring himself to think that the !louse was in a situation in which consistently natio its own honour, and a due sense of public justirss, and with a prospect either of clueing this painful inquiry alto gether, or of being enabled to enter upon it with as . increased means of discharging satisfectorlly Its Im portant functions, it oontil proceed in the course re commended by his Majesty's Ministers, he sl Id he the first to approve of that course. He wished to state why he was not of that opi : anal in doing so he would confine himself 'toast strictly to the ques tion before the House. Ile was bound to ask himself, first, if that peculiar species of pr acceding which, af ter repeated adjournments, had liven avowed by the Ministers of the Crown as that to which they would adhere, was consistent with the proper discharge of the functions of the House ; and, secondly, w hether it was calculated and necessary (and if not necessary, it could not he calestlattel) to further time ends of jus tire ? As to the first p • t, the compatibility of the proposed proceeding, with the functions which be longed to the House, he must say, that throughout the speeches of the Noble Earl, and of the Noble and Learned Lord, they hail done that which he con tended nu Noble Lord had a right to do. They hail assumed a right to determine iu what way the Commons would deal with an accusation against an individual preferred by the Crown.—(Hear But he would allude to the votes of the !louse, to which he was entitled, and, in the present circumstances, hound to look. What dill he there find: Ifid he find that the communication which had been naade from the Crown was dismissed ? Quite the contrary. He found nut only that that rot ttttt unication was still before the House, but that a proposif to defer the considera tion of it for six months had been rejected. Was lie not thence to infer that it was tl.e declared opinion of the House of Commons that communication in question ought to be considered? Their Lordships might, therefore, defeat the ends of public justice, and abdicate their own functions, if they proceeded to dis qualify themselves by a previous examination into a subject on which they might afterwards be called npon to judge. He denied that there was any analogy between th;• and the • ase of the House of Commons, ritei by the Noble and Learned Lord.— The proceeding adverted to in the House of Com mons was a proceeding within the House itself. But for their Lordships, while such a proceeding was pend ing, thus to disqualify th?mselves for bring eventual Judges, was inimical to all sonad principle. Even if that bar did nut exist, he still thought the mode of proceeding by a Secret Committee to be most insx pedieet, because most unjust. He agreed with the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, that this House was competent to originate Bills of Pains and Penalties ; yet the Noble and Learned Lord must be aware that, since the Revolution, it had not been the practice of this House to introduce them, and it was consequently extremely difficult to furnish precedents of such pro ceedings. He believed the last instance, previous to the Revolution, was the Bill of Pains and Penalties brought in against Lord Clarendon. The Noble and Learned Lord would recollect that there had already been one es-M►fe inquiry in this case ; it was notorious that her Majesty had already been subjected to the ex tra-judicial inquirifs of a Conantiuion, which had been sent out from this country with the knowledge and by the advice of his Majesty's Ministers, if not by the sanction of the Noble and Learned Lord. He was not prepared to contend that that Commission was unnecessary ; he was ignorant how far it had been properly or improperly constituted-- how far it had been properly or improperly contineted ; but of this he was sure, that the Illustrious Person for whose benefit the whole proceedings srf Parliament were pre sumed to be conducted, was entitled at least to say, " Let me have no more Secret Commiasions—let use have no more ex parte inquiries." Where were the rules defined and laid down whirls made it nere+sary to institute a Secret Committee hi-fore the introduc tion of a Bill of Pain. and Penalties i• If such a pro ceeding were intended for the benefit of tier Majesty, she should at least be permitted to make her election ; and he would venture to pronounce that her Majesty would disclaim the benefit which was proffered by this House. Such a proceeding was not necessary to any one act of justice; on the contrary, it was calcu lated to prejudice her cause in the public rye, and to interpose another delay in a case which he believed to have been much injured by the delay which had already taken place. As long as there existed a hope of averting the public eyes from this inquiry altoge- Cier, and preventing disclosures so painful to the Il lustrious Personages concerned, all delay was com mendable and necessary; but from the moment that a solemn accusation bad been made, all subsequent de lay in bringing it to a positive determination was at tended with the effect of unnecessarily agitating the public mind, and prejudicing the emir of the Illustrious Personage who was accuser!. As far as he was individually concerned, if by atteutlirg that Committee he thought he could I ontrii•ute in the remotest degree either to close these painful pro ceedings, or to facilitate any measure which wield lead to an amicable arrangement. without that publicity which every man must he so anxious b • avoid, therein' no concession, no sacrifice, which he would not cheer fully make to accomplish so desirable an object. He confessed, that he entertained a fault live that such would he the case, until circumstances occurred in the other !louse of Parliament which rendered such a re suit extremely improbable. If this proceeding unfor-- 1 titnately did gar on, lie should endeavour to discharge 1 Isis individual duty as strictly and is CollbeielltiOUSly I as he trusted every sine of their Lordships would do: 'and he prayed to Hod that the proceedings of that House might be conducted with that attention to former precedents, and that apprehresion as to fume consequences, which might nut only secure the strictest justice to the Illustrious Individual in rised, hut wield contribute to raise their character individually Anil cul ' teeth ely in the estimation of the public. 1 The Loan CIIANcELLIOR obaerved, in eaplanatian, that I in the year 17113 her Majesty, Queen Anne, sent dun it a Message to that House, and to the House of Commons, stating that certain Papers hail been communicated to her relative to a conspiracy in Scotland in favour of the Stuart Family, and that this House had examined the Papers with the view of determining whether they should, lace upon them in their legislative capacity. In the year 1720, a Bill of Pains and Penalties against the South Sea Directors had originated in that House. It was ex tremely important to take a distinction between the ju dicial and the legislative capacities of the House of ' Lords. laird Mixon:names Raid, that he certainly 'amid not agree with his Noble Friend as to the propriety of with trawl ng himself from the I asassnittee. He t bone ht nu reasonable man could object to the conduct of his Ma jesty's Ministers upon this occasion. They had not lost 1 ... a moment in bringing the stilt t before the considera tion of Parliament, and tire louse had lost no time in taking up the Royal charge. and appointing a Secret Committee for its investigation. lie could not consider the examinations of the Secret Committee as a trial, ur even as the c meat of a trial, hut merely as a preliminary proceeding, for the purpose of determin ing whether any trial should rake place at all. Lord Launcitoaut said, that it was with rreat regret that he felt himself compelled to differ with his dulls Friends upon this most important question. lie could as sure their Lordships that he frit most anxious that the I illustrious person accused should receive a fair trial ; but he was anxious also that this House should do it+ duty to another Illustrious Person, who had felt it the to Isis idignity an4l honour to bring forward this arcusation. Tbe Queen had, he observed, sent counsel to the Bar to ask that opportunity ph .old be afforded to allow her to send for witnesses before any inquiry was instituted. But he would ask, how it was possible for her alajesty or her Counsel to determine what witnesses it might hr necessary for them to addere, until it was known that charges were to be preferred ? It appeared to I' , in deed, that it would have been wiser on the part of the Queen to require that the Its-port of the Co, 1111 l ittee should he brought up before she was called upon to col : lent evidence for the defence against any diarges which , that Report might recommend. With respect to the motion of his Noble Friend, he felt himself called upon to vote against it. Ile had now, for about fusty years, had the honour of a seat in that House, during which be had frequently liven a Member of Secret Cosianiitters upon the atihjeti of finance, and of the Batik for in stance, and he was willing to confide in the conduct of . the Ministers who sat iu that House, from what Ise hail witnessed upon such occasions ; for althoss, these Mi• 1 misters had often expressed very strong opinions in the ; Nouse in opposition to his own, upon pre:lions referred j to these Committees, he had always found them in 'such Committees ready to give every due contirleratitm to any brought forward. Looking, then, to experience, e caleulated upon similar coolness and impartiality of investigation upon the present occasion ; hr should vote in favour of the propoution, for the sittings of the el/lll luitlet, in which he was appointed he should certainly attend, because he was determined to do his duty. I.ollls LANSDOWN and LAVIDtRUA LI: explained. Lord HELII.I-ax declared that he could nut abstain from expressing his intention to vote for the motion, while he was not at all inclined to oppose inquiry 'sr" ' this subject. On the contrary, !lidera, he was au at co ' cats for inquiry, but it was for such a public and open inquiry as was agreeable to those principles of British justice which be hail always been taught to te, and not for any mode of inquiry which was inconsistent with those principles, and especially when the party 'r eused so strongly obected to it. The Queen, he could readily suppose. aug ht see reasons for this objection, of which the Howse was not competent to decide, and par thislarly from iser knowledge of the machinations ens ykyed against her ; and, therefore, feeling it Isis duty to ield to leer appeal, he would vote for the motion. Lord Butatairs regretted, that on this occasion he was called upon to differ from those with *bout he usually concurred; but from a reverence for those priu ciples of British jurisprudence which, since he was a bow at school, he had been taught to hold sacred. be fortis his duty to vote fur the motion. lie could never. indeed. alkaWhimself to assent to the violation of those principles. whatever might be the rank of the party sw eated. and therefore he should be equally tenacious, in this incase,. whether the accused were merely Mrs. Branswiek—(A laugh)—or the Queen of Ragland.— (Hear, bear!--The Noble Lord again declared. that he differed wills pain from those Noble Loth with whom he general,' agreed ; but he Was urked by a strong sense of ibity to say, as he could not hesitate to Jo were it even his last word, that he deprecated the course which they proposed to pursue upon the present occa sion.—(llear, hear !) Lord HoLLasits rose, in order to state his reasons for voting in favour of the motion before the Howse. The Noble Lord entered into a detail of the precedents which referred to the course adopted in the present ease , con tending there was none which authorised the . pruce;ding by Secret Committee in the first instance . He was no t very old, but in the course of his Parliamentary life he hail bad the great misfortune of seeing 110 less thaw seven green bags. invoking the liberties of every indi vidual in the country, placed on the tab!e of that House. lie agreed with a Noble Lord who hail stated, that a Bill of Pains and Penalties could originate with that House. Since the Revolution, however, they had gene rally originated with the other House. The case which hr was able to quote as must in point, was the case of Lord Clarendon. Some measures were going on in the other House, likely to lead to an impeachment of that Noble Lord ; and a Rill was brought up to that House. tending to the same end, when a negotiation was thought fit to be set on foot. 'I his negotiation was on the pal' of t:.e King,who wished Lord Clarendon to leave Buell no, in order to tranquAlim the country. Actuated by fe ings of conscious innocence, however, he did not like to comply with the wish of his Royal Master. How ever, from feelings of respect he eventually consented in withdraw, and did so accordingly. Not three days Mgr a Bill of Pains and Penalties was brought against" for running away from justice: and indeed, en most in !deuces, if they looked at the cases of Bills of Attainder, they %wild find that it was for running away from justice. The distinguishing feature of the present case however was, that the object of negotiation was to force her Majesty to leave the country—to do what was termed in Parliauirtifary language, /lying from justice; and in the event of her Majesty's compliance she was to be re warded—rewarded for leaving the kingdom with that which was already intended to maintain her in proper state and dignity iu it.—(Hear!)—With reference so the doctrine Itelst with respect to the Illustrious Person age who was illustrious, as well trout her ancestors us from her station, his opinion was, that she was the tir I subject of it.,. state, liable to imprailiment, if in her seas t• she were so to abuse her power as to create a public evil lie had the authority of Lord Somers, at least, tier this 'llB4li...use. Of all the precedents that hail been brought forward in the discussion of this matter, be con tended there was not one in favour of the present ease: lint that in those • where there was any analogy. it was all against the appointment of a Secret tum mittee. This part of tlie proceeding was not at all necessary, anal was very grievous to the party CO9- cerned. There was a strung contrast between the conduct of Ministers on the present occasion, ant! on that of a late qnestion in some respects similar. He al luded to the case of the Manchester Magistrates. ti hen it was proposed to impeach them, it was strenuously cried out —that an inquiry would he prejudging the caass. (Cheers.)—Now, however, they held a different tone, and refused to listen to the complaints made on all sides, of prejudging the cause of the accusal, in going into an inquiry un ex-porte evidence. He called on the House to think of the consequences which the taking this un necessary step would have on the mines of the country. He could nut bear to think of the appearance this would hare to the remoter, after the conduct of the House of . Would it not he said that after a vain at tempt to saddle that high-spirited animal with the burthru of the whole matter, they had been obliged to come had, to that Iloa a as a pack-horse, that would bear all the drudgery, and do all the dirty work of lige vr•rnuieut. Ile confesfed that lie had seen with regret the name of the Archbishop of Canterbury as one of the persons appointed to constitute the :onnuittee ; that in dividual appearing as the responsible Adviser of the Crown in the act of removing her Majesty's name from the Litnrgv. It. conclusion, he assured their Lordships that if ever lie was in earnest in the course of his Parlia mentary life, lie was on the present occasion, in depre rating the Secret Cosa 111 l The Ars•lshishop of CsmTVPRI/ItY felt himself called on to rise after what hail fallen from the Noble Lon!. lie thought the Noble Loral was not Cori ect in his opt saints. lie should be glad to see the Act in support of his opinion. if lie thought it were true. The only Act lie knew of relating to Use subject was the Act of Uni birmity ; and he was positive it was nut there. If the Noble Lord could not point out the very part from which he had taken his Aka, he should conclude it was a gratuitous • . lion. if it could be shown that his honour or character was in any way affected by his be longine to this C •ttee, he world be ready to resign Ithat honour altogether. bird ',ULLA NU explained, that he was certainly mis informed if the Right Rev. Prelate was not the respon sible adviser of the Act alluded to. lie understood that no Art whatever could originate with the Sovereign of the country: he t therefore have his constitution ti asliisers, and in that situation he conceived the Right Rev. Prelate to stand. Lord Liesartint. observed, that the Act referred to was dune by an Order in Council. Lord Weer explained. Lord Haat' took the same line of argnment as the Noble Lord (11olland), contending, that the Archbishop of Canterbury was 1181. responsible person. Lord it tux LET said, that if no 011 P else slid, he should, at a future day, make a motion, tending to call Minis ters to acconiat for this Act. The II leke then divided, when the numbers were— I 'ontessts - - - - Nun-Contents - • MY Majority —55 Adjourned at twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONti, Tossett. Just 27. The• 11(.1e.vree4 wee!: sd until Ise cieloelt on %Hots for Coassuinees tm ihe Colchester and N'otton Basset Election petition+. Lord Fotk:s.roNa presented a petition from the fr►e holden of the County of Berks. praying such a regulation of election pulls, as would prevent a vexatious protraction of election.. • After a few words from Mr. F: I.awts end Mr. Devvan, the petitioa was ordered to be printed. Mr. F. P presented a petition from the freebolrlen of Reading, prating for an alteration in the mode of tekteg the totes for the county of Berks.—Ordered to Ile on the table. LIR ANIPOUND ELECTION.—Lord J. Reesaidi sold. that the debate on this (meadow bad been so kW( end s 3 often adjourned, be now gave notice that he would certainly bring it on to-morrow. MILAN COM 111 INS lON. —Sir R. Vesicant gave "notice, that he would on Thursday nest bring formed a motion re spectieg the Milan Commission. Mr. D presented • petition from Mr. Nett of a na ture slinkier to that presented se behalf of the same Grails =as to the House of Lords on Monday last. The }ion. and Leaned Deadness took heensien to say, that tits law, with respect so the power of Magistrates coemittleg to priioe. in cases of libel, was of a novel eaters; that power was coati dered by matey as as userpadoe. It inliAt be necessary to - cued/et bow be a govtere eerskirreil taw as illegal and enormous. ought 19 beittellited visits die indent limits of the Conslitutioa.—The jelition was welted In be pleated. Mr.C. Oa AWf obtained limes So Meg tea NU to regulate the Irish Fisheries ; sad it was ordered that th, Hoses should, I •• • ' 1 - I 1 i 1