The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-04-19 00:00:00

THE ------- the es parte statement they had heard. As to %That the Lord President had said upon the occasion, all that he slid was in writing, and therefore could be re ferred to for correctness. Mr. BENNET said, that Captain Drown had been acquitted by the Lord President upon his owu con fession of his guilt, and in defiance of the opinion csf the whole of the "Wire and of the to wn. In short, it was part of the old regular Scotch system, via supporting an abuse whenevm• it came to light. The following grants were then voted : 20735 Widow's Pensions on the Irish Establishment .5.. T 19,800 o defray the charge of the Half-pay of the 0- e...rs of the (meal Miliiia ................... To defray the charg es of Corps to be disbanded 123,1:11 Enrland, in 1821 ............................ To defray the charges of Corps to he disbanded in 27, IS3 I r eland, in 1911 %c4e of Credit oil acco unt of the Ordnance Service for 1821 150,000 Tire H o use then resumed, and the Chairman re ported progress, and the report was ordered to be re f-rived to-morrow. It was then ordered, on the motion of the CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, that the House should again resolve itself into the Committee on Monday se'nnight. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. On the motion of Mr. LAMBTON, the Order of the Day *as read for resuming the debate on the state of the Representation of the people. Mr. WYVILI. expressed his earnest hope that the House would accede to the motion of the Honourable Member. In the present distressed state of the country, when the amount of taxes was three times as 'great as it was 30 years ago, Reform. was loudly milled for by the voice of the people, and that voice it would be neither wise nor expedient to disregard. — Ile concluded by supporting the motion. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW thought the measure of the Honourable Gentleman opposite was highly objection abla in its principle, since it went to disfranchise a great number of individuals, who were not even ac eased of any crime. Much had been said in the course of this debate of a paper, which teas e*.reulated ca the year 1792, in which it was stated, that a cer tain number of Peers and Commoners not .. .. ated a to ajority of the Members of that House ; that paper was, hows•ver, a mere fissile of mistakes. The names of Peers had been put down in that list as returning Members to that House, merely because they exercimal the legitimate influence of their high lineage and s:istitiguished characters. it was absurd to say, fir instance, that the Duke of Devonshire returned the Member for Derby, because a member of the illus trious House of Cavendish was elected the Represen tative of that county. Ile trusted, that great pro perty, high character, and amiable manners %%amid always maintain their natural influent e in that llsouse. lie did not wish to trespass upon the time, 1;114 n so awsn- Honourable Members were anxious to ashitess the house on this question, but he crashd not sit down without entering his solemn protest against a measure citich went to deprive any man of his franchise upon mere speculative ground!. blr. SYKES said, he rose to offer a few observations to the House on this question, rather from a feeling of the duty which be owed to his constituents, than feint* the hope of throwing any new light upon a subject which had been so often and so ably discnssed. Ile ',lncurred entirely in the motion of his Honourable Friend. lie considered this a practical question, and one in which they had fixed principles to direct them. • lie could not refer to higher authority on this subject Ban the opinion of the late Mr. listrkr. lie said that tl.e House of Commons ought to be the express image of the feelings and wishes of the people.—(llear.) This was not the sense in which the Honourable Messt bo• for Yorkshire (Mr. S. Wortley) interpreted the opinion of that great man ; he seemed to have read Burke in a different edition from that which lee (Mr. Ss-kr%) had seen, for his notion seemed to be this, that the House of Commons should be the express ituage not of the feelings of the people hut of the feelings of the M inister of the day.--(llear, hear.)--- if the peo ple were, however, entitled to a real represen twice Government, the other question waa,o holier the people at present were or were not really represented: : lie had net hesitation in saying they were not. If any onc doubted this, the recent votes of that house ought to potato e complete conviction. Ile appealed to those -votes for the proof of what be advanced, as well as to the rote in the case of the Queen. There the people of this country almost tone viol. petitioned Best her Majesty should be restosed to all her rights, and the House decided against them by majorities nearly as large ir. pr ,portion, as those which agreed to the Peitions in thee country.—The Petitions of the people aizaitt-t eetravagaut expenditure bad no better success. The dematt:ls of Ministers, however e xorbitant, met with •the ready concurrence of the House, and in the Esti mates not a shilling was reduced in comp:Lowe smith the universal prayer of the nation. It oas not enough that there should be able and wise men in that (louse; if such were sufficient oa that grou ail emit. to represent the people, they might as well in vite them from foreign countries as look for thew at home, but they wanted men in that I louse is ho had the Petirgts if Englishmen ; there were many and ingenious men in that House, but the d lie would rather have a pure representation, than any talent which a corrupt system could introduce. Ile did n ot know whether Reform would leave the effect, as had been said, of bringing into that House none but men 3vlso were as wise as serpents, and harmless as doves, hut at all events, though some might be returned of a different character, he would prefer purity of councils in that House, to the display of the most distinguish id abilities without it. He was therefore decidedly of opinion that the House ought to go into a Com mittee, though he did not, in every respect, approve of the plan proposed by the Honourable Member for Dur ham (Mr. Lambtou.) The vice of that plan was, that it excluded a certain description of electors whose intermits ought to be representedinstance, it shut oat all artisans who were not householders; he did not approve of l bUniversauffrage ;no man abhorred it more than he did, but thought that the artizans should have a share in the choiae of Representatives. -a--(Hear, hear.) --This, however, conld be discussed *hen they went into a Committee. If be might give his own opinion with respect to plans proposed, Ire would say that the first and the most efficient plan which b knew of was that of Lord Chatham, by add ing to the Coaagy repisnentation, and trinsferring she trembles float Assayed bassets to large and po- pulons towns. It was no objection to urge against going into Committee, that the Reformers were not agreed among themselves as to their plans. If they did exactly tally with each other, it would be said that they had all come from the same offloisos. it was well observed on the preceding night, that the differences of opinion among the religious reformers , did not prevent the establishment of a reformation, yet their differences were more numerous and more im portant than those of the political reformers of the present day. They differed upon both doctrine and ild-cipline, and yet were now enjoying the blessing. of the glorious triumph Of their canoe.—(Hear, hear.) — lie would not rlwyll lon,-er on this subject. The ques tion been s' able discussed already, that he could do no more than repeat the arguments which others had usea . lie lia , l earl); entertained the conviction of the necessity of lielorni, and he was proud to profess the principles of tl.e si hoot of such iilustrians politi cians a 5 Fox, Saville, mid Chatham. It must be evi dent to every one who reflected on passing events, that Refurni vase in its progress, and it could not now be stopped. lie would th , •;efore rather deal with it now in a friendly manner, while that might be done, than when it should have asFuuted a character of violence. Now w as the time to redress the errors of the Constie' - tution---now it was safe and pract icable to remo s he vices in its practice, and repair the damages which it had sustained; a time might come when we should regret that such an opportunity was allowed to pass away.—(Hear, hear). Mr. B.lRl \ti said, he would not go at any length into the question then. It was suffivient for him to blow that c orruption did exist in the Representation; and, as far as he knew, that House ought to be the real representation of the Commons of England.— (Hear, hear.) -1 he inflneece of individuals and of the Peet. was too .!reat in that town to allow it to he a pure representatt TI„ •y were therefore bound to vote fur a I ettallitter, in which the state of the representation two sld be c.oisidereol. As to the plan pi...posed, many objections might be tahen aga io,t, it —as to the point of shortening the duration of Par- Hann:llole was not prepared t o decide upon that. and say what should he theexact terni of duration ; but lie could not how ally span who wished tor the perky tit of Parliaeet, rould vote agai nst going ltito a ' mittee.--(Hear, hear.) —No ma n, by giviug his vote for that 1 1111 l %ditty, pledged himself to any specific plan. If the lion. Mover had not prepare had d a Rbeen the charge would h ave been tnade which often made loefore, that nothing was referred to the Committee to deride upen. if the entire plan was not adopted, 111 !input some parts of it would. It cou ld not lie denied that a c e r tain corruption did exist with respect to the return of Members, and it was not the neture of corrupt' to *laud still; but it %vas said, that the touchier of Pirliansent worked well ; it might do so at present, but if the principle was an sound, it could not wort: well long. Those who sup ported Reform, were told that it was aecessary Minis ters shoo)') have a certain pnwer in that House, &Mr if they lust a majority, they must retire from 'Ace He could not sub-et - Pm to this doctrine ; for if it was ne cessary that Ministers sl ttttt lel always command a 111A jority, why were the Niernhers of this side of the House to conic there and l ose their time and health, vainly endeavouring to toads Ministers that the acts:. of pub lic men should be subject t., the pure emotion' of Par liament.—(llear, bear.) He hoped to see the time when the House of Cumtnotts would mice more repre sent the people, and when seats should not any longer be solid like cattle in the market. lie knew that the sale of seats was arranged upon a scale of ranch systematic corruption, that they brought differe hnt prices, arcortliug to the freedom of voting and e knees Oa* if a seat had the initials Dlf I it brought only half price. But ulestever the plan for efficiently reforming the representation might be , the notorions existence of corrupt practices was gronsd enough fur g Ang int m the Ct 1111 l nittee.—Olear, hear ) Captain MAID/JUN • t Ind, that in giving his sup port to the motion for o oicinittee, hthee migh nc t be e sti of posed to to sanction , in stone measure, priipl the Hill ; against that notion he wished to guard him %elf, objecting, us lie did, to the Bill proposed by the Hon. Member ; what lie wished now to offer to the c onsideration of the House, were r ather souse specu lations and crude observations of his own on the sub ject of !Worn, than any c omment upon the plans of others. lie was, himself, a most model ate Reformer, and would only support sash a Reform as was essen tially undid and temperate.—(Hear, Istar.)--It could not or denied that there were defects in the represen tation : and it was natural that there should be, for it was Out the result of 'systematic wisdom, but arose is the eontse of events, and adapted itself to circum stances, still carrying with it the traces of those Ire mate ages fruits witi. It it first sprung. The defechich, ts be co nceived to be these , t hat several large towns, w on account of their opulence, commercial importance. mei populousness, ought to have representatives. were at present unrepretented. In the march of time, another defect hail arisen, corresponding to that, It was, that several towns, u Lich bad once a degree of opulence and consideration, ceased to c psssess them. these and yet were represe nted. It was his idea latter places should be disfraschised. and their fran chise conveyed to the others which were entitled to it. This would have the effect of conciliating the people, who were naturally irritated from the absence of that political power %Web they had a right to possess. He then went on to state the reasons on which he intended to proceed, and entered into an his torical statement to 'thew that there was of old a dis cretionary power in the Crown to disfranchise bo roughs. No less than sixty-eight boroughs were dis franchised which bad formerly sent Members to Par %lament, and several boroughs had claimed exemption front retur ning representatives. As the Crown ba that discretionary power formerly of disfranchising boroughs. and exercised it in so many instances, he did not see why the entire Legislature was not com petent to exercise such a power, when necessary, to rectify the representative system in conformity thenwith the spirit of the Constitution.—(Hear!) He stated that be objected to the whole of the principle of the Hill; it star ted u p on a wrong principle, by re cognising householien as competent to vote, it wads property the basis of the right of voting, and if pro perty was made the basis, the number of votes ought to be increased, on a scale graduated accordieg to the value of that property, and in proportio* as householders were taxed ; but to make property the basis, and then proceed on a principle of equality, was an objection not to be overcame. He cent's! not agree with those who were of opinion that the House Ansa be purely popular; he believed it wits ne cessary to tine true support of the state mid the laws, that both the Peers and the Crown ought to have some influence in that House. He did not think it should too exactly represent the will of the people. He could refer to historical facts to skew, that a House of Commons, wholly returned and influenced by the popular will, was n ot the best for promoting . the prosperity of the country. —The long Parliament was all example of this kind ; that Parliament was supported by the whole power of the people; but the check of influence being removed, it overturned both the House of Peers and theruth Th of his positions to the Parlitmentary whule, history he wo in the r eig n o f Charles the Second ; on the ul prefe that House to he connected with the Peers and the Crown, and to he in some measure under the direction of secret influence, than to be controuled by the harsh and overbearing power of popular claniour. He haul inaile these observations because no other ttentleman had offered what he conceived to be a practicable plan. Mr. RANISDEN contended that there was a neces sity for infinity; lie was always of this opinion, hut he was ,core strengthened in it than ever be %%hat had happened at the seaclo of last year and the be ginning of the p r esent ; he lluded to the conduct of , his Majesty's Miuisters relative to the Queen. He never understood what object they had in lending themselves to such an act of oppression.--(llear, lacer.) , Ile then adverted to the p rinciple of Reform as con tained in the Bill for the Disfranchiseinent of Dram pound, which was introduced by ails Noble F R riend, the ) Member for Huntingdonshire (Lord John u ssell. The principle of that Bill he conceived, if acted upon, would hate led to a full and efficient Reform, but in 1 , the hands of the Honourable Member for Yorkshire, it had been so mutilated that all its efficacy was de stroyed. Though be would vote for a Committee, he was not prepared to go the whole length with the note 1 Mover in his plan of Reform. In the principle of I s hortening the duration of Parliament he agreed with him, provided souse plan was devised for If the elective refranchse was to be iven to householders, shold be recollecte s d how niangy must be thereby depr it u ived of the elective franchise. tie could not agree in any proposi tion of dividing the country into disttiets for the pur poses- of election , as in a neighbouring State. His lion of Parliament was, that it ought to he the teople's House, and might to remain so, and that the executive should have a colitrouling power any where else rather than there.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HMI BORD said, that the necessity of some reform was undeniable, and be would say, in language made use of before, that if the Ileuse way not reformed within, it must be one day or other reformed from without. His object was to give the people a share in that political power of which they were at present de prived, that they might be enabled to check the waste ful expenditure of public money, and prevent those measures of extreme coercion to o hich Administration w as so much inclined to have recourse.—(llear.) For his own part he would nut support any Adminis tration which did not make Reform in Parliament. it declared and substantive principle of their government. lie bud 110 dread of a reformed Parliament swallowing up the power of the Crown and of the Peers. The motion did nut pleeLre Members to any precise mode of Reform, hut he thought a Committee necessary. Mr. ItICARDO observed, that the subject of Re form was the most important question which could come before that H ouse. Ile was anxious, therefore, to declare his opinion with reference to it. lie agreed with the Hon. Member for Durham that it was quite necessary the House of Commons should truly repre sent the people. It WAS nut necessary for him to have the proof of the recruit votes of the House to lie con vinced that the peop le were tint represented. — ( l lear.) —Front the manlier in which that House was consti tuted, he was quite certain before of that fact. lie would c übrace any plan which was likely to ellee the country an efficient representatioth Ile was alma' to delver a sentiment, which he knew wonlil not omtheeet w ith general appro bation there. The only part f Hon. Mover's plan which did not meet his approbation Was, that it del not fix the mode of election. This he thought the most essential part of all really beneficial plans of Reform, as it nas wore an obj ctitrnce e thia:. the ce Re presentative should he the free, unitstld choi of 1 the people, than that the Iran , like should be extend ed ; and to obtain this free defier, lie thought sums.- thing like vote by ballot on .: lit to be adopted. as that would preserve election safe from the frowns of power, or the inure debasing and fatal exertion of llac Wiious n:lice.— N o thing could, in his opinion. lir more fa than the supposition, that if the people enjoyed a greater share in the act of choosing t.seir representatives, they would exclude from the !louse of o 1111 l tons menword os f intellilz en ce and integrity. 'that was in other to say, that the I eople nould willingly and know- Ogle get rid of what was coodut iv.: to their own good. Mr. D. BROWNE opposed the motion. Ile always believed that the word " Reform" meant nothing but alteration. Sic liEt)ittiF. ROBINSON s:sid, he would vote for the Con 111 l ittee, although he could by no menus agree to all parts of the plan proposed by the Hon. Member for Durham. That stone Reforta of Parliament was necessary, appeared to him to have been abundantly proved during the present Session of Parliament, by the way in which time Petitions of the people had been treated in that House. It uas impossible, indeed, that the peaple could expect redress o f their grievances Pros„ a Clouse of Co 1111 l tons c onstituted as the present WJA. Mr. WILSON, although lie did not profess to be a Reformer, would by no means, in the event of any par ticular borough 01 place being proved corruptits tra ct to its disfranchisement, an•l the transfer of chise elsewhere. He deuie !, however, that the House of Commons ought to be so Constituted as in all c ases to meet the wishes of the people; for ce rtaiy one of the wishes of the people was not to pay any taxes ; and if all the taxes were to be taken olf, how could the G overn ment of the Country go un?—(.l laugh.)— Although popularly elected, he had never bat on two occasions, been asked to pledge himself as to the con• duct which he would pursue on particular questions. He, however, did not consider himself as by any means bound or called upon to adhere invariably to the opi nions of those whom he represented. Certainly hr should be ashamed of himself if he did not feel warmly for the interests of h is constituents ; but when sent to that House, he considered himself bound to look at the interest of the whole community. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that almost every Hon. Member who supported the mo tion for the Committee, added his disapprobation of the plan which had been detailed by the on. Member for • 4 .. 1 i 1 : 1 4 4 . • II! ' II :1 ! i . i I i . . 1 i l i )1 ' 4 ,. 'I Dnrliam. Much, however, at he disapproved of the Ow of the Honourable Meniher (although lie wished to pa% his full tribute to the temper and moderation with whiel.. the Hon. Gentleman bad brought the subject forward), be theuieht it much better, if the House most enter on the subject at all, to enter upon it with a reference to that plan, rather than to accede to the eager, general, and indecisive recommendation to go into a Committee whatever helot.? them.— to examine the state of the Representation irithout hat • ing any particular proposition Such a swift would be to condemn the existing order of tbinge, hout being put in possession of any definite measure by which it was propoposed to amend it. be The Right Hon. fientlem to here entered into a detailed argument to show the iuexpediency of the plan proposed lir the Hon. Member; which, in his opinion, approach - ek very nearly to CuiversalSulfrage. lc had heels taken for granted, that a great majority of the people were anxious for Parliamentary Reform. lie saw no evitlenee of such a feeling, and lie did not believe that it existe , i. It was true that many petitions had been presented t that Honer, but they were all, whether proceedine agriculturist'', merchants, or manufacturers, fontided some particular and specified grievance, which no It.. form of Parliament could remedy, because the object of the Petitioners werewbolly inconsistent with each other. It was, in his opinion. an assertion equally unfounded, that the House of Commons, as now framed, slid not speak the sense of the people. On the contrary, he had never known an instance in which the sense of the peo ple had been expressed on any subject decidedly, and after due deliberation, and had failed to sway the majo rity of Parliament. The abolition of the lile lo lae Tra d e was, in the first instance, not agreeathe wih of the House of Commons, who were apprehen sive of the innovation, and of the injury which particular interests would sustain from it. Rut the opinion of the people having been decidedly and deli berately formed in favour of that great question, and enforced at various periods, it at length prevailed over the reluctance of Parliament, and the abolition wcs effected But although Parliament was in many cast s induced to follow the opinion of the public.it nut unfre uently corrected their errors. The public were greatly led by the press, which mixed up with many facts and mush 1 sound argument, so much fallacy and m isrepresentatino, as to impose upon the public to an extent from which the better information and good sense of Parliament alone could relieve them. A great deal had been said of the intli.etter of the Crown in that llouse. lis his opinioe, that influence had of late years been inueli more thin counteracted by a variety of circumstances ; aners which were the greater publicity given to the precool. lugs of Parliament, and the consequently greater freedom with which those proceedings were 'discussed by the public. So great indeed was the influence of the press, under the almost unrestrained liberty which it enjoyed, that he did not wonder that foreigners were constantly apt to apprehend that this country was on the eve of a revolution or convulsion. Year after year such persons were deceived on the subject, because they were not aware how habituated this country was to the utmost license of discussion on public affairs. Undoubtedly, the advantage of such a free discussion was not unmixed with mischief, but the good very much preponderated ; and one most important benefit resulting trout it o dist it rendered any attempt on the liberties of the peo ple, from whatever quarter it might proceed, as hopeless as the most sanguine reformer could desire. Never was, there in any country a greater deeree of practical liberty than was enjoyed ley this country under the form of Par liament which it was now proposed to overthrow. Such being his opinion on the general question of Reform, awl the particular plan proposed by the Hon. Meuilwr tor Durham not having received the approbation of most seen of those who were the friends of Reform, he I'O4M see no result from agreeing to the motion fur going into a Committee, but that of producing a great deal ot pub lic agitation to nu purpose. When the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEB. finished, which was a qnarter before eight, there was a general cry for the question. St ra ngers accorditigly withdreiy ; but in a few minutes the G a llery was re npened, and we found Mr. Canning on lois legs. Be (ore the confusion, however, had subsided, the Right lion. Gentleman sat down ; and strangers were again ordered to withdraw. We were unable to hear a single word that Mr. Canning uttered ; but we were given to understand, that he said, that in the absence of the principal Members on both sides of the House, who were in the habit of taking a part in their discus sion and in the absence even of the lion. Member 191 Durham himself, lie felt it his duty to abstain from making any observ atioes on the subject, o r from bi ll terfering with the general disposition which seemed tu exist in the House, to proceed at once to decide upon the motion. The House then divirled :—For the motion, V. — Against it, 55.—Majority, 12. he other Orders of the Da y were then proceeded 'I with. On reading the Order fur taking into further consideration the Report tit the Spoiled inney s Mil Bill, Lord Milton complained, that although a, no explanation had been given to the House of its proti• sioni ; Mr. lirenfell said, that a promise given to i i dol by the Hon. Secretary of the Treasury, that the lti:1 should be printed, had not been performed ; the I 'hats cellor f the Exchequer dlared that he had no u-i ri Con to o postpone the furthe ec r consideration of the report until after the holidays ; Mr. Hume pointed out the im propriety of altering the discoun ts n Stamps in on.lor. from 11. Ills. to 1.. per cent. n li in the country i! trus -It. per cent., and that too, ;hilt' a Committee tras,•i!tiu: o n time ore proper remuner ation to the stamp ►stributur,s; s; and Mr. Wilson and Mr. Ellice each said a few sc after which it was ordered that the report shoul he d taken into further consideration on Monday sinuight. The CHANUF,LLOR of the EXCHEQUER morel the seemed reading of the Hereditary Revenue of SO' land Bill. Lord A. HAMILTON ma de some observations ar" this Bill, which wer e not p erfectly audible in the tiallef. The CHANCELLuIt of the ENCIIEQCER fro about to answer the Noble Lord, when Ifir.ILAMIITON (who was not present at the diyitiol upon the Reform question) rose to order. Ile lee' perceived, on entering the House after the late dieliais that the laugh of several Members were !minted!! rected at him. It was impossible that lie coild mista the nature of that laugh. Ile hoped that the Hono ke urable Members to whom he alluded %vivid hart the manliness to stand up and avow their meatiing and as ailing tha t avowal he would not go any tar' they at present.—(Cries of '` Chair !") The SPEAKER observed, that the House would us all occasions see that it would best p:eserve its el dignity and decorum by takieg cave that cout none ary of i ts Members should be treated in a manner the regular forms of Parliament. If any sails of was attempted, it was the uniform pce 0 Hosts to discountenance the attempt. to Mr. LAMBTON , in explanation, begged bar e 41.,r that 11Y s tate the circumsta nces of the case. 11l e vening retired to take some refreshment atter:be di scus sion of the measu re which he had boo' t had commenced (not having taken any rofreshoien during the whole of the night before.) On Wis. retort tee 1105 ' surprised to hear from tee to the House be was surp 4111.11 1! Ilcinh er , ion had nut help h e rs w as Among ' m em ber %vas Hot etilarlY sell ce du now' The c redid nc haring that whi Ile im it woul,l the I light Mery nvri WAS coo got; was fora Poo tha (Ai (lc, Sett orti , ti . aifli tio:1 c ''