The National Register. — London, England, 1820-10-22 00:00:00

lerhat he earns down be had a Minitel et melts If tysloso— doubb Napoleons. There were. ha said. So i and they up-se as many. I man no double Napoleons. Zangla told sue-••••• The ATTORSLIC Geo ZRAL said. the Ileum meld os= the conversation between Jangle and the whims as gra& not having been proved to be an agent. Mr. WILLIAM() contended in favour of the =tits. sod etated that he could prove that the witness bad teld by Zangla, that he should receive as much if he would make a deposidon against the Queen. It was necessary to proceed step by step, as it would be impossible to prove conspind by any other means. Mr. TYNDALE followed on the same side. After sane observations by thelaordChancellor,Lools Erskine. nedealale. and Grey. Mr. Bmugliam rose to speak, but it being four o'clock, the House adjourned. FIFTEENTH DAY OF THE DEFENCE. • THURSDAY. OCT. 19. The House resumed proceedings at ten o'clock this morning. Counsel being called in. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he had it in com mand from the !louse to Inform them, that the question on which the debate arose yesterday could no: be put in the present Maggot the proceedings. Mr. Bactuourio said. that there was another question. on which he wished to have their Lordships . opinion, whether it should be put or not. He understood their Lordships to have decided that he could not ask the witness Meoni to tell what Zang!' told 31coni had been said to him (Zangla) by Col. Brown -..in short. that Zangla himself must be called to prove the decla red= of Brown to hum. Earl GREY was of opinion that her Majesty's Counsel had a right to pursue the course in which they had just been inter rupted ; it was perfectly consonant with the opinion given by the Judges. Lord F.RSKINE said, that the Judges in stating that there must be some introduction of the defence of conspiracy. did not certainly allude to the original opening. Such a defence might not be known at first; it might arise out of the proceedings. or out of any c i rcu m s tances coming newly to the knowledge of the party. find he would appeal to the oandour of the Noble Earl opposite, whether upon such a case newly arising, it would be eight or fair to oppose Counsel in opening what this new case was? Lord DARNLEY said, the difficulties thrown in the way of her Majesty, must have rendered it impossible for her Counsel to ascertain, at the period of opening the case, circumstances which might arise in the course of the investigation, and that might be calculated to establish the crimes that had never been in the con templation of those employed in the defence. He hoped that seeing the insufficiency of the evidence in proof of the ease, and that to many extraordinary things had arisen to throw discredit upon the charges, their Lordships would. at no very distant day, give up the ease altogeth as the only expedient by which substantial justice could he er doss. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he bed yesterday expres sed his reasons for diffieing from their Lordships upon_ the sub jeet areceiving evidence. which their Lordship had thought to hear. •It was a painful thing for him to be placed m = ft a situation; but he should never cease to declare. that no slander, no calumny, should prevent him from conscientiously performing what he considered to be his duty.—(Hear. hear.) Mr. Wail/ass said it had never been intended to prole the crime of conspiracy by this witness's evidence. against those who were concerned in the Milan Commission. The evidence he had called was to effect Zangla, and not Cob Brown, and he was glad that their Lordships now understood the question, and that no reply would be made to what had been stated. A conspiracy imght bare existed without the knowledge of the Mika COOl. massioners. The eiretuadessoss of their ming over toads* rd. den, might have excited ass oks Ear Ipso* iet army persons, and without their knowledge lii earyieney might have arisen upon that hoodation. It had hen ieekanMsd. &new ought to be called by shoes who whited to diary the conspiracy ; but they already charged him with being a culprit, and who would tali upon him tooriminme himself? As the case was now un derstood by their Lemke*, be Me Lamed Counsel) submitted. on every ground. that dee lased = ought to be admitted as evidence. Mr. Bat:tattoos( (chewed on the ammo lie. The Conned for the defence did not seek toxin seldom of thededaratisosof Col. Brown, or the Milan Coomasiem That was set the plum Object. He had already hod sseembing to tie wish the Miles Commissioners. and he. perhaps, 'might hove to do with ikein again, but not at present. But bums they did wit mew with to iillbecenspiracy on Col. Brows end ids ese4iMew. was be Majesty's Counsel to be prevented Ma provigthe eneephogy ea the part of other individuals to isupede lost Maw kr lie de fence. and to increase the widow ter the JIB N.Wheever he rciwltt be, whether Brows es Tombs, or any akar peen who had done this. and be odd pew that it bed boo due, the fact ought to be brought hems to Mtn. I am pawing that Zangla made bimeeir on sedge agent wane; the Qom. by what be had dean He says te a prase he wished to lama, become a witness for the mo . i sesodso. Swear mplost the halms of Wales, and yoositall have a reward." The sun says. II I can. not. I know nothing about her." u Oh." Grim tie what girdles that, I will take you to the gardens whim the walked with Bergaini, to the moms where she sat with him, and I'll tell the day and the hour when they were really there t so that you have nothing to tear from avatars. So here. come along with me—take these Napoleons. choose your spot. I will prove the Princess and Betgamt to hare been there. and you have only to forcer that you law it that's continued the Learned Counsel. lam prep ared to prove; and it would be monstrous to suppose for a moment that, hearing this. any one of your Lord ships could lay hie hand on his heart, and declare on his hononr, that such a proof would not make the slightest difference Us his mind, as to pawing that Bill which was to ruin the Queen, The Ar roue v-Gemenet. replied at Wine length to the arguments of her Majesty's Counsel. Mr. Williams had argued the questions keep/ . but Mr. I:roughen) had given up the legal er-ument, anti lual contended, that whether legal or not, the eve dace ought to be admitted. He contended, that, according to the rules of 1.. w and the principles of justice, the evidence could not be admitted. COUR,Vi were then ordered to withdraw. aed a long debate took place. but being streussoilsl9opposed by the Lord Chancellor, it was on his motion cluchled u. 14 the question should not be init.— Counsel were ihett called in, and the determinat'.on of the House .communicated to them. The witness Antonio Mod was new callen to the liar, and ex• amined by Mr. Williams. . You stated yesterday, that you went with Zan r ;la from Venice to Milan ?—I DA rou return with Zangla to Venice?...Yes. flow many days were you at Milan e... Two clays. What is the distance form Milan to Venice e...one hundred and eighty-tire Miles. Did you pay your own expences, or did any one pay them for you 1.,.1 did not pay oven ;me hundiedth pert of a lore; Zang:a paid the whole. Had you any business of your own at Milan Had Zangla any as it stage manager ur othery ise. None. Did you see Zangla do any thing else then go the (Torts) Orlentalo and the Rue Cabello ?...floe went also to look •,tier a we. on of the name of Wand, a sort of second manager ut the theatre. You told us, yestenlay, you saw Zangla come down stairs hem Cud, Brown with a numbet of Napoleons in bill hand Yes, I did, At that t4as did he make you any oiler ? The Attorsey-Genersl objected to the question. MG WILLIAII3...*It is a question se to a Sim THE NATIONAL REGISTER The SouctToniGiVZSALls.sMai we *Oa to doe fact al as est Dane Mr. xase.....Ans I then r uederstand that the &shit* ofyour Lordships is to apply to all other evidence that we may have ready to adduce of similar alba having been made to suborn and bribe The LORD CBANCELLOIL—Mr. Brougham, it would be infinitely too daring to give an answer to your queraion. The House can only decide upon each question as it arises. Mr. Reouostase.—We can tender no other kind of evidence than an bring she ease of • y nearer to the Milan Cam mission than that which your l hips are pleased to reject.— We have not Rastelli to produce. we have not RqPlsti to pro duce; we have no means of compelling their apparance. AB that we can do we are reedy to do. but your Lo sbrd ps seem to say. that all we east 4,6 Ono avail. I understand your Lord ships to be of thatepheise; that the calling on Col. Brown, the bringing out of missy front Wm. and sisewal that money as a bribe received to bear evidence vibe her Majesty, are cumin. steam I .= to connect tbe balmy with the agents of the Miles If so, I aiiinly ssy that you cut thus the clue of our ease; we can, situated as we arc, Rastelli being withdrawn from us. and Regrind beyond our reach. produce no stronger evidence than we have antlered. and your Lordships have rejected. If Midi is the decision your Lordships have come to. then we need not carry further the line of evidence on which we had entered. The I.OIW CHANCELLOL—AII I an say. without taking the sense of the House on the subject. is. that me question of calling other witnesses must be left entirely to your own dis cretion, and I stn sure it cannot be left to any better discretion. Mr. firm trortax.—Then we have no further questioh to put to the witness Meoni. The ATTOMNEY-GEWERAL declined any aoss examination. By Lord LAUDEIWALE.—When you saw the Napoleons in the hand of Zartgla. were they loose, in bap, or in papa P... He had a handtul. and a large hand he has h--tA laugh.) lied you any concern with the theatre at Pesaro P... Never. By Lord DABNLEY.—Do you know whether Zan& was ever in the service of the Prinee.s?...l do not. Riomarigo &kudos was now called in, and examined by Mr. Denman. lam from Treviso. lam Professor of Literature, Teacher, of the Italian and Latin languages, and I reside at Lausanne. in Switzerland. In 1818 I was at Leusanne, and saw Sacchi. He held a conversation with me On the subject of the proems against her Royal Highness. Did he ntake say application to you en the subject. The ATTORNEY GENERAL, objected to this question= the ground, that the declaration of Sacchi. given by wrsun, was use admissible under such circumstances, Sacehi not having beset peeved to be an agent. Mr. Dumas said. Ibis object in additte gallon was to prove that limichl had assured the Mamas his Maw maid be made if he gave widows_ epic *Mr pad if to hew that die widow of laalit_ arl ei d=m inadmissible. The agwasy elleacia MI bean by the evidence of De Mont and imam wham. He could poovo. that at Lausanne. Sacchi padastoad acts sender the Ceamhoioa..... Their Lordships would be guilty of the worst of Wader. ltdia would now refuse to open *air eyes to a oinepieati for such base purposes. If. then, Sacehi was known to be NI authorised agent going about and abusing the authority anew which he was &chug. could their Lordships refine to hear dente in proof of such vile employment?—lf it was lawful to inquire into the acts of the Milan Commission, it was surely competent to their Lordships to inquire into the roadact of the agents of that Commission, in gathering the evidence against her Royal Highness. Lord ESKA NE said, that with respect to the (Moths of the credibility of SiccEi as a witness. it, in his tints, a proof bad been offered of the attempt of a person to corrupt witamses. he should nonce proceed to the proof. and calculate upon the RIM of the investiganon as of the most decisive kind. Lord GREY said, that such a connection had been established between the Milan Commission and Sacchi, that it became in dispensably neoesary to prove the nature of his employment. and if a person could be proved to have attempted to corrupt ethos to swear falsely, what doubt could be entertained of his willingness to swear falsely himself? The proof of a corrupt agency.upon the part of a witness, destroyed the credibility of that waness. Counsel were then called in.. The ATTORNEY GESEILAL objected to the admission of evidence which was brought forward to impeach the testimony of Snag. in the way it was now attempted to be dons. Mr. Stoneman said, Socciii had notice of the charges against bias. He came to their Lonlahips bar is a witness, and all his = Is in this business was known to him. This took the ease out of the enteral rule. And he would ask, who weld holism a man who bad, in the same cause, proved himself a sublime of pekiury ? Mr. PARER rejoined. and argued thews on its legal merits. The LORD CIIANCELLER wished. as in former cases, to co.:_ult the opinion of the Judges on the subject. and he proposed that the following questions should be put to them—" Whether, in the administration of justice in the Courts below, when a wit ness foe the prosecution had been examined in chief and had not been cross-examined as to any declarations he bad made, relating to his procuring witnesses for the prosecution, whether the Coun. soh foe the defence could bring evidence to prove such declaration. without tint calling on the witness to know if he had ever made such declaration r The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought there was a very easy way of getting rid of all the difficulty, without putting the question to the Jud ges, or losing the time of their Lordships. There was one way in which the question might be rendered admissible, and that was, by calling up Sacchi. and reexamining him.— This, he thought, was a mode of proceeding to which them could be no objection, and therefore he submitted to their Lordships that flaccid should be called to the liar. The LORD CHANCELLOR enquired of the Counsel on both sides, if they had any objection to Saccht being recalled to the bar. Mr. Buoying...n-4R v Lord, the hat time we called for a witness he was not to be found. The LORD CHANCELLOR—Iint if he is to be found, have you any objection to his being called, and when do you wish it? * 6 Now, now, my Lotd," both from Mr. Brougham and Mr. Denman. Lord ERSKINE said, that th r question proposed to be put to the Ju.lges by the Noble and Learned Lord on the %Veto:sack, did not meet his view of the case. He (Lout Erskine) would propose another, to the following ellfeett—" If on any trial a withesa is called on the pert .of the plaintiff; and gives evidence against the defendant; and if, after the cross-examination, it is discovered that the witness ,o examined has imileavouretl to cor rupt persons to give evidence against the tl‘tentiiint, whether Counsel for the deteiniunt may nut be allowed to adduce evidence of 4'lol corrupt acts is'e The Earl of CARNARVON said. that it was of nu use to refer to tile Jtiagoi for their opinion, since it was 111i1J1VC,1 on all hands, that in the end, the house wore not bound to abiee by that opinion. lit hie judgment, the question proposed was eOll. sicent with every object substantial justice, and lee would therefore move at once, that instead of retorting the qw‘tions proposed to the Learned Judges. •• the questions proposeu by the Counted for liar Majesty shuual be now put." ht LORD CHANCELLOR then said, Is it your Lord. ships' pleasure the question proposed be answered ?" ft was negatived without a division, and the ROWS adopted the motion for sending tin question to the Judges, via. .6 Who. thee. to any trial in the Come below. where a hisses is ogled 839 to give evidence in such cause. and after aosamtaminsdoilltk discoveryd that he corrupted. or endeavoured to corrupt. ether witnesses. Counsel may be at liberty to give 'wideness of the fan. without calling back the witness ?" The LORD CHANCELLOR handed the question in writing to the Lord Cider Justice. _ _ LorefEitiiffsK. Oleo moved an acliouronasat, end dis Howse accoedingly adjourned. stAThENTH DAY OF THE DEFENCE. ' 711111 DAT. OCT. 20. The Marquis of LANSDOWN, precious to the Consul being called in, moved that their Lordships' order of the 21st of Augn.t, for the attendance of witnesses, from day to day, daring the continuance of these proceedings shonid be read. The order was read accordis•ely; when the Noble Mar quis said, after what had passed yesterday. be felt it right to call their Lord.hip's attention to this order. Previous to the question being put to the ink's yesterday. a Noble Earl (Liverpool) proposed that, to save time Saechi should be called back; and he understood the Counsel for the Queen acceded to it, if be should be called immediately; but it appeared he was not in attendance so as to be called immediately; and Indeed, be understood that he was not even in towu. (Yes. he was, from Lord Liverpool).— Then he was not within call. If lie had, all the tins* wasted In discussioa wo •Id have been saved. Under these eirenntstances he Theught their Lordships should enforce this order, and not let it be a dead letter un the table. The Earl of LIVERPOOL certainly understood that Sacchi might have been called, had the Counsel required it. As to their Lordships order being enforced, be could have no objection. Indeed be thought the witnesses ought to be In such a siteetion during the 'proceedings as would enable them to attend instantly if required. did not understand that the Queen's Counsel did se require the attendance of &mein yesterday. The Marquis of LANSDO WN understood Mr. Bennett. am, when he was asked, if he wished Simla to attend to say " yes, now." After a few words from Loud Lauderdale mid Lord Redesdale, the subject dropt, with an understanding, that their Lordships order was to be enforced. Counsel were then called in. and the Lord Chief Justice of the Lars Bench proceeded to declare the opinion of the Judges on the questions referred to them last night by the Lord Chancellor and Lord &sling, and declared their opiaioa that both questions should be answered In the negative; and that before a witness could be ezausifted to the declaration of a former witness, the witoess meat be called back, aid interrupted as to those declare. The LORD CHANCELLOR. then addressed Mr. Brougham, and said sense differences d opinion ridged as to the questions put to him yesterday, and his answer to it as to calling Secebif be would sow ask his, did he desire to call him. Mr. Bnovottsx said, he certainly expressed his wish to call him yesterday, had he been fortlicomieg, but he was not eow disposed to call him. Lord SIDMOUTH thought it right to state to the House that a messenger was sent to Succhi's house yester day, and hr was coining down to attend their Lordships when he was met by several Noble Lords, who told hi:ts the House had adjourned. The LORD CHANCELLOR then pot it to their Lord ships to adopt the opinion delivered by the Judges. Lord GREY would not oppose the decision of the Judges, but he considered there was still another ground on which this question might be put, and that was, that &mai bad been proved by Its acts the agent of the Milan Commission. The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not assent to this opinion of the Noble Earl, for the reasons formerly ergs! to their Lordships, he still continued of opinion no &gem, was proved. Lord ERSKINE thought the Counsel would yet be well justified in requesting their Lordships to receive this evidence, notwithstanding the opinion of the Learned Judges, fur whom he bad the highest respect. Their Lordships should consider they were not strictly a Court of Justice, and therefore ought not to consider themselves strictly bound by the rules of a Court ef Law. The Noble Earl opposite had declared ar.inst sitting as a Court of Law when he decided against proceeding by impeachment, because he said adultery, if wowed, was not a crime at cooninon law: and was the Queen to be subjected to all the ineonvenieures mud injustice art the proceedings now instituted her, and have noes of it. advantages ? fie would details the House no fur ther in argument, than to say that he should vote for the eaatnipation proceeding. Lord DARNLEY contended, that the agency bid been proveu on that part of Saachi, by his own answer in several parts of his examination. Lord MANNERS thought, as the rules of evidence had been so strictly adhered to on the one side in these pro. ceedisogs, it was equally essential to the euds of jotitive. that they should be *din:sot to on the other. He thought it .houid be referred to the Judges to say,,whether artier hail been proved or nut. Lord LANSDOWN could never consent to refer to the Judges any queciou of trot; styli would hr the case if they were to rat r to the Leap tied Persons to say, whether agency had been ;moved oi not. The LORD CHANCELLOR said lie would, with this consent of their Loodshlps, now put the question to the House,that this question should now be put to the witness. Upon this their Luidships divided, when the numbers were, for the question being put.-51 ; against it Li 9. The Moorquis of LANSLid v 1 NE said, he formerly gave notice tout when chi. head tit defence tea, closed. he slinield hove a prllptlt 114 II l 0 cosnmwii ate to their Lovol.iiip . s s 7 He tlauugnl it sight to Mate Ilia li . 1111.•io the recollection of Lbeir Lortloliip• thia i t•itt .the Arinwnce.. nmeut of these proceedings, the rut:C:oo.ot* keeping the wit nesses fin this (punt ry Att. staled tuhJ,aKnxed to on pll .14,4116. It would also be ireolleeted thaw .utiiratry Its the - tin-v:oms of i:)eir Lorolahips, it must 1141 .NIIIIC . I* NIA ithlehled and out only peroieitico..tiut bud lies OW Of IIIC wintry. The ii : eot fur the Lad toe,cuesortussed'un this point Lurci.loi pi bur t awl hod, ill the enure*. of . xuntiu i mt>hutd, tika ha. eraaotal Jur sondteigi Mn.. tclit tool ut the boon's), %%ere to snake hiw the stetaeutter to hear toratioutioh I* the friend. of the ititoeurb Who *CM to thea eOtiotry. IOW to convey isuporteut par to to Cot. ft roma. ti !leo que,tit“ , e.l us so 1.1 tete aro try Brown whit tt c istueitto.&ud coatataattatioue from Gut. Ileurtil oil she ealljeet of katetelles arival at Mateo. sod betas required to prudeve sure letters, blt. l'eweltdeeleued to produce teen.. es the arousals tbat he WM as sicat as 4 aft at Lawn; Is divulge the secreted Um prieci lf .w