The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-28 00:00:00

6" STATF:SMAN sively Protestant—of the disqualifications in the Bill on Roman Catholics filling eertaims oftm.es, and• be canse of the Privy Councillor's oath, he would, propose the amendment to this clau4e, to the ex. tent which he had stated. As to the second motion, excluding Roman Catholics from the judicial office, the Right Hon. Gentleman said that his reasons were, because, in the first place, the Rottman Catholics did rot now complain of any partiality in time administra tion of Justice: secondly, because Dissenters were al ready shut use from being Judges by the sacramental ;Lists, and therefore it was no hardship on Roman Catholics, as this Bill affected only to put them on a footing with Dissenters; thirdly, because however it might be a hardship en individuals, such exclusion never could press upon the great hotly of the Ronson Catholics; foorthly, because of the inconvenience that would attend a departure fromn the uniform practice of choosing, by rotation, the Judges as delegates of appeal in all ecclesiastical matters, front which Roman Catholic Judges would be necessarily excluded; and, lastly, because he thonght the judicial character would, of conserrence, lose much of its respect in the eyes of the people of this country, if they Jim' not see the Judges go to church and partake of the sacraments. The Right lion. Gentleman said that he would, how ever, give the silk gown to Catholic Barristers at the Irish Bar; for he thought it unjust that, as the Army and Navy hail been opened to diem, tha Bar should he shut against them. It was said there was a great change in the feeling of the people of this country on this subject ; but he denied that it arose from apathy, it proceeded entirely from the confidence which the te•ople hail in this ralinnniated House of Commons.— conclnded by rooting, that after the spe vial exception-4 in the clause of the Lord Chancellor, &e. these words " and of the Privy Council" be added. ile said that when that motion was disposed of, he should then move to except the places of Judges, lc. in Great Britain and Ireland also. Sir .14 HIS NEW PORT began by eulogizing the r ood feeling with which the discussions on this ques tion had been carried on in the House. lie then ruceedemi to argue against what he called the imagi nary thin r which the Right lion. Gent. apprehend ed from admitting Roman Catholics to be the King's Councillors. If none were to participate in the Conners mml the Sovereign but those who were of the e tAbli.he4l Church of England, how did it happen tl at Gayle were persons in the Privy Connell who were of time Established Church of Scotland ? The case of a Papist Sovereign was the only one in which the Sovereign was personally responsible. Time itieht lientlemme n then proceeded to combat some of floe most intim. tont points urged by the Right Hon. Member who had preceded him. We boasted of be ing a very tolerant country, but we forgot the ex a nple which other countries hail set us. It was not very creditable to England to exclude Roman Catho lics from office, while Protestants were eligible to every office in Catholic countries. We had the in s•anee of it Protestant Ambassador from Catholic Ba varia, aid of a Catholic Ambassador from Protestant Denmark. Moreover. if he was rightly informed, the present Danish Ambassador wimitlJ soon he replaced by an English Catholi.., who, though nut eligible to any place of ?moonr or trust In his own country, was selected by a Protestant King of a foreign na• t;un to represent his Court. If any thing were ' wanting to show the liberal spirit with which Catho lic Sovereigns were influenced towards their Protes tant suhjects, it would be found in the ins.anee of Itnngary. That country possessed seven millions inliabitants, and of those more than one-third were Protestants.—(Hear, hear.)—The Right lion. th•ntlentan then qn)ted a passage from a cer tain work, which stated that frequent troubles bad intain place Is Hungary in consequence of religious differences. However, in the year 1791 the Emperor L-opold convened the Diet, and proposed to an A ssetn b'y of 4110 Deputies. that the Protestants should have PA only toleration, bat a right to fill all offices to Catholics were eligible. This proposition was adopted. there being !91 for it. and only n 4 against it. The nseasnre was proluctite of the most happy e.r•ct ; and at the time the French took possession of Vienna. they sought in rain to create a party in lion vary, so united were the people among each other. Tice Ilnagarians, both Protestants and Human Catito -114, said to the French, s' Here yon cannot come ; we will have nothing to do with con." Ile next argued at some length, that nothing bat the strongest netts s:ty could justify exclusion. This necessity, how ever, he did not sat, nor could he bring himself to believe, it existed. With respect to what had hems sa;tl on a former night be the his. Member fur Corte Castle (Mr. Henke!). anti others, that a good Roman catlsolir, believing his religion the best, would feel i• Itis duty to advance it at the expense of the Pro ' testant faith, in the event of his being admitted to pe li•ical power, it was an argument which could not for a moment be sustained. But hr was indeed notch sur frivol at hearing from the Hon. Member, that he, as a goad Protestant, would feel it his duty to act upon +loch a principle, if admitted to political power in a Roman Catholic country. The only reply which he John Newport) would make to such an argument, oas to call the attention of the lion. Member to the words of a Right lion. Gentleman, the late Member fu- Dtiblin, who, on a former occasion, lie heard t! e argument advanced, exclaimed across time table, sootewhat im•regularly it was trite, but 'laterally enough f•-om time impulse of hia feelings, " Men who could do so are not only not worthy of filling politica! offices, hut of discharging any of the common offi..es of life," It w;44 singular, that Dissenters were made eligible, trliie Roman Catholics were excluded. The late Sir M. Forster was a Dissenter. :1% was also Lord Rosslyn. 'I he Right lion. fientleman concluded some further ul , servations, by expressing his decided conviction, it at the concession of the claims of time Roman Catholics woold tend to the peace and security of the realm. Sir JOHN NICHOL toTeated his objections to the general principle of the Bill. Ile thought it a nontt extraordinary mode of providing for the security or time Protestant Church to advance the inter ests of one that was directly opposed to it. He ti en went into some minute details with the view of s' nosing that the *accession to the Throne might be endangered by acquiescing in the Claims of the Ho man Catholics. The Church of Ireland he considered to be inseparable from that of England, but if the p re sent Bill shoaki pass there would be imminent danger to both. The Hon. and Learned Member read • borne extracts frogs the articles of Vision is corrobo- ratios of Isis arguments, and then declared his a ssent to the clause, and his determined opposition to the principles involved in the Bill. Lord CASTLEREAGH then rote, and after some prefatory obaereations, expressed his satisfactien at the spirit of eantluur and conciliation which had hi therto been evince*, in ili‘enseileg the subject. Ile should regret if the present clause should have the .1 feet of disturbing that spirit, kind he hopes' the Ito man Catholics would receive with gratitude, as they were hound to do, any iesinlgenve which might be ex tended to them by the House. In his opinion nothing ouelst to be urged to which the liberal Protestant copula not conscientiously and honestly ;secede. The Noble Lord, after adducing souse arguments on this point, said that the preservation of the Chnrch Esta blishment was a great Protestant principle, essentially inherent in the Crown. Ile then went on to shew, that though this principle was immutable as provided by the Constitution, still the operation of it with re spect to other communion( was to be regulated by circumstances. It was well known that the Roman Catholic Clergy of Scotland received a certain provision from the State. Ile should be the last man ft ho would sanction the principle of making provision for all sectaries that might happen to spring ap in a free country, hut neither Roman I %Medics nor Presbyterians s ere to he vie.' ed in that light. next point on which the Noble Lord a oars! was that which referred to the allege.' power of the Roman Catholics, which he did not consider by any means so formidable as was represented. The Noble Lord then quoted some statement: tioaile by the late Dr. Dui gnat, who, Hornig,' one of the strongest opponents of the Ro man Catholics yet had proved to the House that neither in numerical force nor in wealth did they bear that ex traordinary proport . to the Protestants of Ireland, which people were taught to believe. Ile had %alien some pains to inform himself upon the state of Catho- lie property in It—land, and lie cosh! pledge himself that, with the exception sof fourteen or fif.ren places, there was no place in that country where the indnener of Catlv.lie property we'll(' matte itself felt ; and be was sure, that, in the event of the passing th it Bill, nut more than five or six Catholics wt.'s'', be returned to that House. Desirous as he was of (hang a kind ness to the Catholic body, still lie would never agree to admit them one step to places of power and trust, if he thought the concession would he accompanied with danger to the ecclesiastical and pol:t:cal establishments of the country ; and if recto he thought that the Catholics dill entertain any projects of viol st ing the aecurity of the e sta'ali.loinessts, he was .ensit.le that there was no place us here their ['siesta mould he so operated upon and turned in courses connected with the safety of the State, than Parliament ; and he was sensible that no more useful method of cotanunication between Proteetauts and Catholics cont./ be devised than that which wool.' arise from the aohnie-sion of such a number of of persons of the Catholic per.nasicit into Parliament as wooshl not endanger the existence of the Ettablished hell, ion of the State. It was also his solemn conviction, that if the Bill was eventually successful, so car irons Hiere being danger that a 1111111 , her of Catho) es woad be sent into Parliament, cape jsle of jnstly exciting the alarm of the Protestant coleslaw:o , y, the noes! er bent in would be even more limited sitas4bot which his flononrahle end Learnee. Friend (Sir J. Nichol)) seemed to consider as Om number wills whose a.hookeion the safety of the Constitution ism Church and State woad be con sistent. Ile would net admit that the growth of Roman Catholic wealth and ithinence wonld in time make the present roncrosions dangerous. I k e..e e ven that the apprehensions to this effect w just, he would nate lay the foundations of that liberality and unity of interest which would lie the best security against such fears. The Noble Lord then proweeiled to the application of the principles whirls be had laid down. He t ()armlet' that the real question 1,4 the House now to consider was, whether or not it was best to give Roman Catholics the eligibility to the two sitts• ations from which it was proposed to exclude theism, and leave it to the discretion of Government to carte into effect this conrension of eligibility. The' loonar irhy was essentially Protemant—the Paella:tient was essentially Protestant, and would remain so ; was it possible then that a Roman Cathelic could be danger ous as a Minister, to whom. existence as such the confi dence of his l'rotestatit Sovereign, and of a Protest . ant Parliament, trais essential. Still less slid he see any hanger from a Roman Catholic being a Privet:onto - Moir. The question then was to time number of Bonsai' Catho lics to he r tiseil to the rank of Privy Counsellors; and he wails! answer the assertion, that if it ts:l a right to limit the adonis-ion of Roman C a tholics to that rank, it oas riZbt to exclude them altogether, by saying, that whilst the discretion o f l'o t ersonsoint was enough fir the security of the State aeaitea Roman Catholic isofinence, the eligibility to time rank being now granted, 'read take away the opportunity for the fittere agitation of this distressing,: question. Ile applied time same principle to the question of ad missibility to the Bench. He argues! that there would not only he the security arising out of the airs ma stance of Roman Catholics being appointed to judicial situation., solely by an exercise of the discretion of Government, but there would he the additional one produced by the peculiar circumstances of the Bottum Catholic jitolge himself, namely, that he would feel himself in %nets a situation of responsibility and so closely watched by public opinion, that in Isis anxiety to act with itspartiality, it would be snore natural that, if he erred at all, it would be in favour of the Pro testant. And even in case that he because a dangerous enemy to the Church or the State, the result must be, to product. an Indisposition ever after on the part of Government to appoint person, of leis persuasion to similar offices: so that the only source of hope which the Roman Cailoolics could have of obtaining rank and distinction wadi' he, the ex emplary (-unhurt of those Roman Catholics who were appointed to other. Ile would therefore leave the ap pointment of Roman Catholics to judicial situation* to the discretion of Hovernmetst ; and indeed he would carry the principle of non-exemption so far as that he would rreunomend it ns the most useful step that cooled be taken, nut to establish one single exception kiga:rxt the Roman Catholies.—(Cheers.)—Let Hassan I nth lies be eligible to the offiee even of basal ebarryli ,r And could the extravagant thought be entertaipri that a Rowan Catholic westld be selected , to fill that office witls which such an extent of Prottntaat Erodes sistatical patron age was connected. He felt most •strungly that as for as possible they• should out de- .troy the benefit of this meat:tire by recognising any exclitaion which conlml lie as effectually carried into execution by the workings of the Constitution itself, and the fitness of things. In fact, it was as abastrd to suppose that a Roman Catholic wonlil be selected to fill the office of Lord Chancellor, as to suppose that a lien. in the army would he isppeinted to the office of the Archbishop of Canterbury.—(Cheers.)—The Noble Lord applied his principle and reasoning to the aditt:s• libility of Roman Catholics to the office of tiorernors of Colonies. Ile contended that there was less objec tion to the admissibility- to others el this description than to the former offices ; and as to the Ecclesiasti cal patronage ;Mouted to the offices of (inventors of Colonies, he thought that it would be advisable to have that patronage transferred to the Governtuent at home. The Noble Luril recapitulated his arguments , and pressed them in a most powerful manner. He renewed the expression of his hopes that, to whatever extent the House in its wisdom would make concession to Catho lics, they would receive them with those feelings of gratitude, and that disposition to conciliation, which the conduct of their Protestant brethren so strongly claint,..l. '1 he Noble Lord eoncl idol by congratulat ing the liouse upon the nommletittion and impartiality which prevailed in the discussion of this question, and sat down amidst long and vehement cheering. The cries of queat4ot at; withdraw w..re reiterated font ail parts of the lion-e, and the gallery was nears ly cleared for a division, when Mr. LE kECI ruse, and animadverted in severe tennis upon the comments of some lion 'Members op posite ition the petition which had been presented to the House ag..inst the Catholic Claims from the Arch deaconry of Leicester. r. WE I'll ER ELL after stating that clause of the Bill which affixed a penalty to the offence of any Ro• man Catholic Privy Counsellor giving advice to the King upon reclesiastical matters, it being the right of such person to confer with his litjesty confi entially snd alone, asked ill what manner, such being the ea-e, it was possible fur the offence to be detected Sir J. MACKINTOSH adverted, first to the obser ratio'', of Air. Le Keck, and ackno , ledged that he had spoken in strong tertua of indignation at seeing the exploded imputations against Roman Catholics, that their relieioe sanctioned deliberate perjnry, sanc tioned by being stated in the petition t.f the Archdea conry of Leicester. Ile stated that the great effect of that part of the Bill, then under consideration, was not merely to make Roman Catholics eligible to the office of Pricy Connaellor, but to give them an opportunity of enjoying those situations of trust and power, which by custom were limited to Privy l'otitisel lora. It hail been ashed by the Learned Gentlem in (Mr. Wetherell), in what 'manner the offence of the Roman Catholic Privy Connsellorosbo mdf:wed advice to the King upon gc elesiastiral matter+, could Le detected. Ile would answer hint thus:—One of the authorities of Venice once asked a Pope, where seas the record of the gift of the patrimony of St. Peter to the Holy See. His Holiness replied, that it was upon the back of the in strGoient wilds conferred the sovereiguity of the .111riatic upon the Republic of Venice. In the same way lie would answer the lion. and Learned Gentles malt, " show me," be worth! say, " the means by which the offence of the Privy. Counsellor at present;l who is re-palms ble for any tin .unstitutional advice he may give his Soyereign may- be detected, and I'll pro vide you with the weans of deterting the offence of the Roman Catholic Privy Counsellor." The lion. and Learned Gentleman proceeded to argue upon the impropriety of admitting to Parliament persows who were excluded from being. Privy Cornaellum and an swered the objections which were male to their ail mission to Privy Counsellors. upon the ground of the inconsistency of the oath. and the nature of the duties helunging to that office. Wooild lion. Gentlemen con template butt for a moment the prospects which Irish families entertained fur their children, front the temssi hairy of their rising to high and exalted station., in consequence of the removal of their present disalii• lilies, they could not hesitate to concur in the utility of this turitsn.e. When the high Roman Catholics ; should see lint one Member of their own communion raised to a high and distinguished situation, that one palpable insianre would do mere than the reasoning ef ages in attarhing them to the laws and the Consli tuition. The 11.11 m. Member next adverted to the salt'. I tan - effect of the Bill in attaching Roman Catholic istera to the nixintenattee of the laws. It hail fallen within his own experience to adjudicate the rights of persons of v ari 111 l s religious classes, 31ahis-i metal's, I.lvil mtorm, Christiana, and Heathens, and he was sure his judicial opinions w ere ne ve r i n fl ue nced by any religimins plejtolices. Ile had tom reason to sup pose that the Roman Catholic Barristers of Ireland had not the same firinness.—(liear.) M. 11.11t11.111 raprobated the language of the petition of the Arcli.leaciittry of Leicester, and con curred in every word his Hon. Friend (Mr. Carew) had said with respect to Father Hays. Ile (Mr. Bar ham) was in Rome at the time, and he could bear tee thiamine to the fact, that all Rome was filled with indig nation a t the conduct of that person. lie ha.l within doe last three days seen a ropy of the order by which this Mr. Hays was obliged to quit Rome in twenty four hours. The Hon. Member after a few more ob servations, concluded by ssying he would support the Hill, Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Committee divided on Mr. Peel's amendment. We un• derstood the numbers to have been, For the Amendment ttllS IC4I Aeninat it Majority — 19 While m r were excluded, we understood that Mr. PEEL bad proposed in the Committee a Clause `• for the exclusion of Roman Catholics from the office of Lord Chancellor for Ireland;" which clause was agreed to without a siivisi )))) . On our return to the Gallery Ir.. foond Mr. OCIUL. BM' ItS on his legs. proposing au amendment, " that Catholics be heligible to be Governors, or to situ& sister the Government of any of his Majesty's Colonies or Forci2o posstssions." The lion. Gentleman con tended, that the Governor of such Colony having the power to appoint to. all tares connertel with the Church, such power could nut be safely eutrusted to Roman Catholic. The House divided on this amendment, and this number were — For ths Ameadmene Apollo* It .. Apol Majority against the —4ll On our re-admission into the Winery, we found th • 4 the reaini n rlin st 7 s of th - 11 .41 1 1fi ofl, l a li i t l tre ltt reel it, %% I. hunt a iiirision, and passed. Sir J. NEWPORT rose. and itiored that "tbe i•lau.es of tit* Intercourse with 11, , 0te Rill." b e „ e. soli•lateil with " the Roman 1 mitotic Disability 1111.1." ..... . On the question help l t• pa!, Mr. C. HUTCHINSON rote and imphr4 his Right Hon: Friend not to pre. , those clause., At ,„, late an hour ; the House ha I just plaited a Iii!I o f conciliation and enneessien, aml ‘could it then T .,. into the consideration of that which Ile would call a Wit of penalties. he Hon. Gentleman inoreelle,l co a t , pie against the principle of this I suer Hill, hut w „ almost inaniiihle from contitote.l noise, M. FITZtiERAIM press on his Hon. Friend (Sir J. Ne..vp , rt) whetlier the di". %inn of this new proposition s.tonltl not rather place at an earlier hour of the evening thin th e pr „. sent : there were several now elatt%es, which certainly occasion tatuelt further discussion. Sir JOHN NEWPORT, in reply. assure,/ his Tight Honourable Friend he had proposed these clauses h e compliance with the wishes of his llonti ft e,,hh. —bat, knowing that ditlerervers of opinion oft d ime clauses existed, and that mock debate might 2 ,i, , I , * would move that to e t'llatsnan %Inlaid t h en report progress, and ask leave to sit sgaut at an early hon e 1 „., morrow, (this day) so that the Bill, as altisna rt i o „i..h t be trail a 643 time o n Mon bar. Lord CAW/lA.:Rh:Atli, COll, lured with the Melt Honourable Baronet, an.: wi.111,1 ref-4)lll'mA a ve t: early hour to-morrow, (this day) for resittning the Committee. The Report itti et be receire.l Thais day, and the Rill be read a third time on Monday, sad that in the interim, the Buil, as amends-4, shoulil he printed. lie would take leave to say, that however anxious he was for passing the original Hill, yet, if the proposed restrictions were rejected in the hoes. [hitter, he would feel it his duty to oppose the pa The CHATRMAN then repotted progress, and asked leave to sit again to-mot row, (this day). Ihe Hesse resutued. Lord PALIIERSTON gars notice that, os flay next, he would move the remainder of the :fret Estilll%tes. The other orders of the day were disposed of, all i the House adjourned at half-past 1•1.. tear Proceedings in the House of Lords, err last Pagel DEVON ASSIZES. The trial of the prisoners, of whom the calendar enumerated S 9, commenced on Tuesday morning the .2tltli instant, at eleven, the business of Nisi Pries has , ing commenced an I before there were 61 commit entered, of which 14 were to be heard by Spechi Juries. The following prisoners received sentence of death:— John Doge, for privately stealing . from the shop of 31r. Bowden, at Plymouth, a *catch, gold chain, value Brig /1, for ass.' nit in g J. N. Mar. Chant, on the 9111 December on the highway, near P 1 , ;• mouth, and robbing him of is. and other articles ;O. charged with assaulting T. lilt, on the same muting, and taking from his persona hat.—Nlartlra Brook.* breaking into the dairy of 11. Daman, and Rodin; bread, butter, Sec.—Richard 31arley, fur fleeting tin' sheep from Coonthalicall estate. in Ilampton, the ye pert y of D. Iladcock, Nicholls, for stealing a mare, at lientisburv.—Ed. Williams and J. Rowe, for breaking a house in the slay time, and stealing tno gt6iira%, and some wearing apparel—William and Jam, Bowden, fur breaking open the dwelling-how of It. Stamp Chutlleigh, and stealing 1341. in wites, gold, and silver.—J. Jeffers's'', for stealing a grlilin4 from It. Tru'ol, of West Has:Wand, ant selling ate John Stooke, of liiiigkers , vell ; also charged on the oath of W. Ilarvey, of liingkerswell, with 'menet 1.0111 him a hay mare, which has been reclaimed bra gentleman of Bristol.—Richard Volger, fur breaking into the I se of T. !maims, North Tawton, and stealing ruin and cheese ; also charged with steaks; a hay snare from .1. Shilson, of Winckleigh.—Of thew, William Bowden, Jalltr4 Bowden, and John Bagwell. ; are lilt los exectition.--The others were repreivvil. —saw— SI'SSEX ASSlZES.—lloasuass, Moult 4 5. Mr. Pawl, a respectable cloth-worker of Coleus's street, brought an action of damages against a Mr. B render her senseless, and produce insanity wlsile in a state ill pregnancy. 'flue Expense attending her illne.s, kr. amounted to upwards of 300/. and the Jary swat damages to that amount. CROWN 811)E. It tNIC or Esso.avis Pansucurtoss.---Hvaack &ft" /esi awl Margaret Rice pleaded guilty to the R iser offence of having knowingly forged Ralik of l'nfl a4 notes in their possession respectively, and seteraq received sentence of transportation for 14 years. Charles Ilarlingc, a man of respectable appeal-ore and of rnitivated mind was indicted fo r a harglary the dwellitsphouse of Thomas Harrison, atsad Rtroll"'es:" the night if the Illth of January lar January last , silver plate and other articles above the value of It appeared appeared the prisoner , wh o lod g ed at No. '27, Bar t. lett-street, Lambeth, Surry, was seen at the heist 4 the prosecutor, Mho keeps an ion, on the 10th nn.try. On the ttttt ruing of the Ilth, it was discern' ed that the house had been burglariously entered in Ili" night, and the property in q uestion taken. Neil ay, in consequence of s uspicions foe prisoner's lodgorit in Lambeth were searched, and al most all the a rllith4 stolen found there, together w ith various isuplenseo' of Itouse-breaking. The prisoner addressed the Jury at en nsiolersli! s length with great ingenuity, anti it a style of 1 ts 0' gunge far superior to persons usually br.tglit to bar of justice. lie said tlrat the articles in. question bad heels given.to hint by a person who olve.l him wilier• The prisoner's dialect was rath , r exotic, but he nil' stated to he a native of Stollatri. The Jury nailer the L ea rned duilge's di recti or. found bins guilty—Death —but the pruseentot tel: 041. r niesoled bins towterev. 4." —.op— - The caletidee fur Nuttinzh.on‘ltire contains lit paralleled 110tlibrf of thirty-two mew bur". have been sentetwell to death at thew assizes f! 1 10 a consolation however, that. excepang Upton, o b ' hint Potter, the Loughhorto' carrier, all three y° p. nett rasa base. been. repriev.A. Video it the Aily es t i left for ezecuttium _~ I k