The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-06-14 00:00:00

.. ~a.` ~ ~ ~ yr+ IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, June IS. 11.nrd TORRINGTON mare(' for nn account of the India Sh piling regi,terrd in Great Britain up to June, 18154—Or der. 4 1. _ _ _ The Irish Rills of Exchnnee Stamps Bill, Irish Excise Ditty and Landqn Coors-Homes Bill, were brought up from the mom, and read a first time. fbe Irish Malt sod hides Duty Bill were read a second time. Fowles' Dieoree Bill. Nelsmis Estate Rill, Rodmia Market Bill. Csations Duty fill, Iri=h Loy Proceedings Sinais Bill, and Irlsh Newspaper Stamps Bill, were read a third lime, and The Earl- of WESTMORLAND presented a Petition fronts the Planters and Owners ..f proprrly in the West against a Bill now pending by which their interests were affected.— Laid so the table.—Adjourned. MOUSE OF COMMONS. The City of London Courts of Justice Bill was read a third time. nod pii-sed. Papers were presented from the flank of England, pursuant in the Order of the House, and on the motion of Mr. GRLN FELL, ordered to be printed. The Dia, Casio's& Bill was read a second lime. Mr. R. SMITH gave notice of st motion for Friday next, relative t‘s oar possessioa of the island of Banco. Mr. PEELE ni.ored that the Irish Master of the Rolls Bill should he read a se. oad time on Thursday. Mr. Y. BLAKE entered into a defence of the object of the Bill. • Mr. HORNER re-stated his firmer opinion, that the dis posal of any ollice within the patronage iif the Master of the Rolls in Iselaod for pecuniarr comideratian. was a gross trea ',amble misdemeanour, without, however, meaning to impute such an offence to soe present Master. Mr. PONSON BY and Mr. PELLE said a few words. The Irish Spirit and Paper Regulation Bills were severally rend a Seemed limes and ordered to be committed to-morrow. On this.mi,tian of Mr. FITZGERALD, the House resolved Itself into a Coatiolttre um the Irish Distillation Acts, In which a Retolation was agreed to, and a Bill ordered to be brought in hectirdingly. Appie..tiee Laws Amendment Bill was read a secoad time, isai tottered to be printed. CROK ER 'sowed for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Crown to acqitire ground requisite for signal stations. Ur. i.Y Inclined to think such a Bill at the present quite tioneessary. Sir E. BRYDGES moved that the Pauper Removal Bill he recommitted. the Committee, after some discuss's', Mr. F. LEWIS rooted that the Chairman do quit the Chair, which was carried. BANK OF ENGLAND. Mr. GRENFELL, in rising, declared that it was tot his wish now, nor never had it been his wish, to disturb any contracts subsisting between the public and the Bank of England. Neverthelesi, he felt it incumbent upon him, and even due from iim to the House, in consequence of the papers granted upon Ids motion, not to let the present Session pass away, without endeavouring to lay before them a combined view of the situation of the Bank to the public. He felt it his duty to do this, not with a hope of his Re solutions being immediately agreed to, but with a view of enabling the House to make improvements in the system, in the course of the next Session. The mode of doing this which appeared to him the best, was to submit to them certain Resolntions respecting the facts, which appeared in the papers that had been granted. He should, however, preface those Resolu tions by some few observations. lie should first de clare, that neither in the origin nor the progress of what he thought it his duty to the House, had he ever been actuated by any unfriendly feeling to the Directors of the Batik, nor by any wish to abridge the fair and legitimate profits of the Bank of Eng land. As to the Directot a, he felt the greatest re ;peel for theta individually; end, as for the Bank of England, he was as sensible as any other matt of the great advantages that the public had often derived from the Bank. The more, however, that be con. sidered the subject, the more he was convinced that all those advantages might and ought to be obtained, without calling upon the country for such great sa• edifices in return. So far, however, from throwing any censure upon the Bank, if any censure were due, it was rather upon his Right lion. Friend (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer), and all thi.se who had held that situation for the last SO years, that he would be inclined to cast, it.. They bad afforded to the Bank too great facilities for their demands; and when those facilities were held out, it was not to he sup. I posed that the Direcxers would be hack ward in avail. ing themselves of them. He should divide his oh. servatious into two leading branches. The first, with respect to the deposits at the Bank ; and the second, as to the charges made by them for the ma nagement of the public debt. In the first place, as to the deposits, it appeared by the very able and lu minous Repott of the Committee of Public Espendi tore, that the balances in their bands as deposits amounted in 1107 to 11 millions. When he stated some short time back, that be did not believe the de• posits were less now than they were at that time, he , was told that this was in exaggerated statement, for *bat they had materially diminished since that time. It, however, appeared now from the accounts pre sented, that in the year 1814, an far from a diminu tion, the deposits had increased to 11,966,0001. He believed that it would not be denied that those de posits were at least as great a source of profit to the Bank of England as they would be to private bank ers. He believed that they would be, must be in fact, a greater cause of profit to them ; as private bankers most always keep by them a certain portion ...- of unproductive capital, when deposits were left in their hands. The Bank of England, however, was not bound to keep any unproductive capital to meet their demands ; they had only to be provided with pen, ink, and paper, and then they were prepared for "fly demand. Now there occurred to him two modes I ,which justice might be done both to the public and to the Bank. If it could be ascertained what was a reasonable deposit to leave in the hands of the Bank, merely as a compensation for their taking the trouble of being bankers to the public, he saw no objection to their being obliged to lend the remainder to the country without interest. If the deposit of a mi/lion its their hands was conceived sufficient (and he was sere that any private bankers would conceive it 2hondaatty sufficient), then, he conceived that out of the 11 millions deposited in their hands, 10 should be lent to the country without interest. There was smother mode which was very customary with private bankers in Landon who corresponded with country bankers. A certain deposit was left in their hoods as a compensation for the trouble of doing the busi ness, and after that they kept a regular account, and ;mid interest on all balances exceeding that sum. A• average deposit of 11 millions in the Bank of Eng. laud was, however, giving that Corporation a profit of between 5 and 600,0001. a-year, merely for the trouble of acting as hankers to the public. Tho barn statement of sucb a sum must et once convince every F 1 ~. 7,71 , -qpir 7 1 " 4 " STATESMAN. person that this was a profit enormously tou great.— He was convinced that any priiate hanker, so far from thinking a million deposit to be an insufficient compensation for the trouble, would be glad to take the trouble for a fifth part of that compensation.— On the second point he would °them., that in 1702, the allowance to the Bank for managing the public debt was 92,8051. whereas in the year ltls, it amounted to 251,5581. which was an increase of 181.5581. Independent of thi,, they charged. 12501. a million for their trouble in the mangernent of the Property Tat. He thought that it was evi dent that the bargain between the Bank and the public was a most profitable one to the Bank, and a very losing one to the public. After a variety of other observations, he concluded by moving the first of his Resolutions, w hich was taken from the facts on the face of the accounts. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought that the House must immediately perceive that the present was not the proper time for dis cussing a long string Of resolutions, some of which the House had now heard for the first time. He, therefore, thought that the proper course to pursue at present was to move an adjournment of the debate en the first resolution to some future day, in order to give the llouse time to compare these resolutions with the accounts on the table. As the Hon. Gent. had, however, prefaced his motion with some obser vations, he found it necessary for him to take the same course. As a servant of the public, it was his duty to make the best bargain he could for the coun try, which justice to the Bank would allow. He conceived the statement of the Hon. Gentlemen to be much exaggerated. The Bank paid now to the pub lic that compensation on account of the balances, which was considered proper that they should pay in 11807, during the Administration of Mr. Perceval, when the balances were nearly as great as they are at present. It was certainly competent to Parliament to consider now whether this compensation was not too great,: but as to the profiti which the Bank of England were supposed to make, from having only pen, ink, and piper to provide for meeting the de mands oo them, he trusted that the !fairs of the Bank of England were not managed on that princi ple, nor on any principle different from what was adopted by private bankers. As to vault private bankers would be content with, that was no rale.— He believed that many individuals in London could be found that would be glad to take a deposit of eleven millions, no almost any terms ; but the pub lic was to look to the security. If, however, the allowance given to the Bank was thought too great, that was a subject open to re-consideration. After some farther observations, he concluded by moviug that this debate should be adjourned to this day se'tinight. PON';ONBY observed that his Honourable Friend (ir. Grenfell) had riot brought any charge against the Bank, but merely contended that the bargain had been an improvident one for the public. When the Directors of the Book, acting for the in terests of the Proprietors, met the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject, they could not be blamed for making the best bargain they could for the interests of those whom they represented. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he was very glad to hear that there had been no intention of bringing any charge against the Bank. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex plained. Mr ROSE explained.—He thought it might be proper to reconsider the bargain with the Batik, as the public.were entitled to as good an arrangement as could be made for them. Mr. HUSKiSSON defended the bargain made with the Bank by the late Mr. Perreval, in 1808.— In that transaction Government had employed every possible argument in favour of the public, and it was not without considerable difficulty that they obtained from the Court of Directors a loan of three millions without interest. It was, however, now open to the House to reconsider the bargain. Mr. TIERNEY explained.—He was now more fully convinced than ever, that no Chancellor of the Etchequer could de what he wished to an, till dif ferent arrangements were made. It now turned out that the bargain was such as might have been mend ed ; and es Mr. Perceval had tried every argument without effect, it showed that Threadneedle-street was an overmatch for Downing-street. Mr. RUSK ISSON explained.—Government had only allowed such a bargain es they thought was tit between the Public and the Bank. Mr. THORNTON said, that as it was intended to print the lion. Gentleman's Resolutions, he should have abstained from making any remarks until a fu ture day, but that he thought the House might be misled by the Resolution that excluded the Bank Notes deposited at the Exchequer from the public balances in the two periods of 1807 and 1814, which were compared with each other, as the leaving out these Bank Notes made a difference in the deposit of three millions beyond what it really was. He objected to the last Resolution, by which the House was called upon to pledge itself to take into con sideration the arrangement between the Bank and the Public, which had always heretofore been entrusted to the Executive Government ; and in matters of so much confidence and delicacy, could not be else where so well placed. With respect to the allow. arise to the Bank for the management of the public debt, he said it was true that in 1792 the allowance was about 99,000!., and in 1814, 280,0001.; but did Gentlemen consider the immense increase in the National Debt, the risk and the difficulty of con. ducting it? The number of Clerks was in the first period 380 ; and now above 1000. Ile next ad verted •to the gratuitous services rendered by the Batik to the Public :—for receiving the tax on trad ing profits, they charged nothing ; 17,500,0001. 5 per Ceots. had been either paid off, or converted into other stock, without any charge for superin tending this service; nearly one hundred millions of Exchequer Bills had, in the last eight years, been funded, and no charge made for it by the Bank.— Lastly, by the capital of the Bank, lent at 3 per cent. interest (three millions without interest), and other concessions, the public derived a benefit from that Corporation of 490,0001. a year. Ile stated, that it was his anxious wish, and that of his bro ther Directors, that what was fair and just between , 1 the Public and the Bank should take effect, and lie was confident the House might safely, as hereto.; fore, leave the arrangement to them and Government,' reserving to itself the undoubted right to sanction or. !• disapprove the bargain when it shall have beet, made. ! One principle, however, he must guard the House ` against, which was—the being supposed to connive at the restriction on cash payment longer (bait was absolutely necessary. If the Bank and the Public were to participate in the profits on a supposed issue of an increased extent in consequence of the re striction, they would naturally and very fairly be supposed to have a concurrent interest in continuing it, and the best security for a wholesome limit to its duration would be taken away. He wished, and could with confidence say of the other Directors of the Bank, that they were anxious to maintain a limited issue of Bank Notes, and to return to the payment of their notes in cash the moment it could be done with safety to the commercial and political interests of the State. Mr. GRENFELL, in explanation, said that he was astonished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have conceived that there was any such inten tion. He had taken pains most explicitly to disclaim any such intention. Mr. ROSE was decidedly of opinion, that it might be right to revise the bargain. Ile had, how. ever, listened anxiously for the two remedies to be proposed by the Hon. Gent. and was surprised to find a proposition of depositing the public money in pri vate banks. Mr. GRENFELL said, that he never was wild or mad enough to propose any such thing ; but in, order to fix what was a reasonable rompensa. sation for the trouble of banking, he thought it ne cessary to state what private banks would consider as sufficient. Mr.'I'IEIINEY would really imagine, from the tone assumed on the other side, that it was pre tended that the public ought to be very much obliged to the Bank for not taking still more than they did, in the way of compensation for their trouble. Ile was convinced, that if any private bank was consi deresl sufficiently secure, there was not a private banker that would not be happy to take the trouble for a third part of the compensation. He was pretty sure that the Honourable Baronet (we believe he al luded to Sir W. Curtis) over the way, would jump at the offer of taking the trouble for one-third part of the compensation paid to the Bank. The Chan.. cellor of the Exchequer appeared to consider that the country must pay whatever the Bank thought proper to ask, as no private bank would afford suf ficient security. He would, however, assure the Right Honourable Gentleman, that in the opinion of men of the best information on those subjects, the country was not so completely at the mercy of the Bank as the Right lion. Gentleman supposed. They conceived that it was possible to set up something for management of the public money, which would do quite as well as the Bank, and with less expence.— When the bargain was first made with the Bank by Mr. Perceval, he complained that it was an impro vident bargain. His complaint against the Bank was, that they always contrived to entangle all Chancel. lors of the Exchequer in such a mariner that they could not act as they would wish. He would wish that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had left the Bank to themselves on this occasion, and had con tented himself with reserving himself to act impar tially between the Bank and the public. Indeed, he observed that the Gentlemen of the Bank seldom opened their mouths, unless it was to get something. —[A laugh.]—lle was persuaded, that there were secret transactions between Government and the Bank, as he had never been able to get at the amount of the Exchequer Bilis purchased by them. He did not, however, mean to insinuate that the Right lion. dentlematt sanctioned any improper transac tions ; for he felt convinced, that until the finances of the country were put on a better footing, it woeld be impossible for the present Chancellor of the Ex chequer, or for ten Chancellors of the Exchequer, to make advantageous arranvmenta for the people.— Mr. GRENFELL replied at some length. He disclaimed any enquiry into the private concerns of the Bank ; hut he thought it the bounden of the House to take care that the interests of the public were protected. He was not convinced of nnv error in his statements, with respect to the profits derived from Bank-notes and issues; and as to the number of clerks, he believed that one•tenth of them were employed in making 11. and tl. notes, so that it was unfair to put that down to the public service. He repeated, however, that the Bank derive;( an advan tage equal to 800,0001. per annum from their issues, and, therefore, it would become them to net with more generosity and liberality toward , : the pi'!►lic. Mr. FORI/11:3 thought the Hon. Gentleman en- . 7 -- - --: waram ar From the speech of the Right lion. Gentleman, any titled to the thanks of the public, fur Ini..ging this petson would suppose, that the 13knk was the most question before the House. In addition to w •,it mid liberal public body ; hut he defied him to show been stated respecting the pr•fits of the MIA:, he where they had done any thing for the country, with- desired to mention, that the Bank now paid only out insisting on the uttermost farthing. The Right 1.12.0001. per annom for a commutation on st 'rap s , lion. Gentleman might talk of liberality and tine 1 4 bile private banks paid 160 ; 00441. 1/•)n.1 an issue feeling; but without meaning an) disrespect, he I equal to only one-half of the Built of E 'and. must say, that those sentiments were not known east- I Mr. GRENFELL hope,: the iibt.. ';entleas en ward of Temple-bar. His Hon. Film], wished to , would make a motion on that subj..ct ; if not, he know the nature of the bargain with the Bank, and ! pledged himself to make it. De believed, that up to the amount of the emoluments which they derived : last month, the amount of Bach.itotes in ciradatiou froM it. For his part, he must declare them to be i was 27 minions. most exorbitant, and he thought another arrange- 1 After a few ,s nrds from Mr. MELLISH', • the meta could be made with great advantage to the !question was put, and rarrie,l, that the further 4 e ., public, if the House would take it up. If the House 1 , bate on this matter should be adjourned to that day were to say, " this is a bad bargain," the Court of i se'nnight. Directors would give way, and be contented with moderate profits. He agreed that they ought to have liberal profits as a remuneration for the time and abilities they employed ; but they now took ad vantage of the exigencies of the State, and demanded too much. Nobody could deny that the Bank de rived exorbitant profits from the issue of their paper, which, previous to the time of the restriction, they could not have expected ; and, consequently, they ought to be satisfied with a moderate return for con ducting the public business. The Court of Directors woold consider themselves much indebted to the 1 Right Hon. Gentleman for defending their interests, but he had not given a satisfactory answer to the real end only object of the resolutions of his Honourable Friend. He hoped, however, when the resolutions were printed, that every Gentleman would have an 1 opportunity of considering the question more fully, and of ascertaining the answer of the Directors them ; selves. REM TH Y OF SLAVES. , I Mr. WI IBER.FORCE rase, pursuant to notice, to bring under the consideratioa of the House his motion respecting the Ilaeistry of Slaves in the • British Colonies. Ile felt a scisfection, he said, in thinking that the measure which he intended to pro. pose was one which involved no novelty of princi. ple, but was, in fact, merely a supplement to the Bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade. It had been already adopted, to a certain extent, in the i Island of Trinidad, after a most mature-end delibe rate investigation, and had proved highly beneficial. He was happy to add, also, that the principle of the measure was one which received the decided appro bation of the late Mr. Perceval, and which it had always been his intention to extend to these colonies I which have Colonial Legislatures, as well as to those which bad not. He was concerned to hear, how ever, that he might expect to receive oppositinn front ' many Geutlemen in that House, who represented the West India interest in it ; and that opposition rem. dered it the more necessary that he should distinctly state the great principle upon which he intended to rest his measure. The object of it was not merely to check the various mems by which theabolitioat laws were evaded or violated, but to prevent the continuance of the source of !Ito evil itself. Many . of his friends who then head him would remember that during the various discussions upon the Aboli tion of the Slave Trade, it was constantly urged, both in that House and out of it, that no suhstan. dial benefit could be obtained, unless measures were devised to introduce those moral regulations with respect to the treatment of the slaves, which might secure a supply .of slaves without looking to the slave market for that supply. The great object of the Abolitionists at that time certainly was to stop the supply from Africa, and that; lay the foundation. for any superstructure which it might afterwards be expedient to raise. But it was impossible to do alt that might have been a ished at once; and indeed he would frankly confess that when the Slave Trade !Bill passed, the friends of that measure did not dare to encumber it then with more extensive operations than at that' time belonged to it. Now, how e ever, the period had arrived when supplements. ry measures might not only be resorted to, but when in fact they were called for from the prac, e tices which undoubtedly existed in the West India Islands. He most earnestly entreased those Gentlemen therefore, who intended to resist the motion he should have the honour of submitting, maturely and deliberately to weigh all the merits of it before they were induced to oppose it. He had been iuformod, from various sources of intelligence, that the illicit introduction of slaves into the West India Islands (he was bound, in justice, however, to except the Island of Jamaica) was still carried on to a very great extent, and a strong fact in confirmation of that intelligence was, that there had been but little increase in the price of slaves since the passing of . the Abolition Act. Great and dreadful abuses also in the treatment of those unhappy beings still pre vailed, and it was impossible, he feared, to expect any beneficial reform till some positive enactment took place which should clearly render it the inte rest of those who had a property in them to pro mote their comforts, and secure the means of thtir increase without any possible supply from Africa.— He was now contending for the happiness and be nefit of the West Indian slaves, and undoubtedly if there were any meow; that could be propos•al which would reinter completely etfe.qual the Abell : tiott Act, lie could not doubt that the House would be earnestly disposed to promote them. He would therefore state to the House the measure which he had in contemplation for accomptishiug that object. It was, in fact, by the wails of registering the slaves. The [louse was aware that a register of them was already kept in every island ; but it was not so particular and exact, as to render it a specift . cation by which the identity of the slave could be : ascertained. The mode of registry which he in tended to propose would precisely accomplish that object ; a duplicate or counterpart of it %fluid also !be transmitted to this country, where it would be preserved, and constitute the title of the owner to I the negro ; so that iu order to prove that title or ' claim to a negro, it would be absolutely necessary to produce the register. The illicit intiodectien of slaves would thus be effectually prevented, as nit frauds or falsification in that resister would be sub jected to heasy punishment. Such was the leading ' principle of his measure, which aas so simple that it explained itself, and so safe and so useful, that lie thought it would be laying the foundation stone of a reform which would gradually operate through all the ramificatioas of West Indian management with re spect to slaves ; and if such were the effects that mielit be anticipated, who that felt any interest in the welfare and happiness of those unfortunate beings, would hesitate to give his support to it ? With respect to the objection, that the measure would interfere with the Colonial . I..ogislaturss, he denied its cogency. The most enlightened of those Legis lators would also deny it. The paramount right 01 controul on the part of the Legislature of this coun try had been at all times acknowledged. On this subject the delusion would soon pass away, as it had passed away on the subject of the abolition of the Slave Trade itself—a measure which was now uni versally allowed to be one of undeniable justice and humanity. It was not to be expected that the ('O - Powers should resist the operation of this proposed measure ; and were they to resist it, th it resistance would be ineffectual. There were OW consideratintis, ef a much more powerful nature, t o i n d uc e the lif,use to accede to his propootoel arising out of the duty of Parliament to pruritic la _ „~: ....,~, !s+~r~,~ I. 'ff V r r' 7 1 • J) • z 7; .:! ~~r( •