The Statesman. — London, England, 1820-07-11 00:00:00

i I 4 J . Ca! course of justice, and contended, that it was right •...t1 expedient to be guided by the analogies of law in jotliciel ca.vs. He instanced the case of a person .ti:.rged with high treas.m, who is allowed a copy of the indictment, with a list of the witn . in order r . prepare for his defence—an indulgence which ought not to be withheld from the illustrious defendant now at tlieir Lordships' Bar. He implored their Lordship too to. conclude at once, hut to take time to consider define they adopted any resolution. lie thought that their Lordships would forward the ends of justice hest by conceding to the application for a list of the tt itnesses. The L;an CHA!'IIILLOR was satisfied that their Loth/hips would come to the consideration of this Jai l:ore:int question divested of every bias that was cal , %dateti to injure justice —he wished to Coo that the slue state I , f feeling prevailed out of the House. It u.‘s quite shocking to reflect upon the state of feeling out of doors upon the subject. One of their Lordships could find no analogy between this and any other case, except that of a charge for high treason, and even in this instance the Noble Lord had been found to give op the analogy. He (the Lord Chancellor) had been in situation where it became his duty to furnish lists of witnesses to defendants, and he remembered in four or five cases of charges for high treason, he had to furnish a list of 250 persons, who were to be called in to give evidence. He begged their Lordships to re coliect, that as the law sow stood, a party was not at liberty to call any witness whose name did not appear in the list, and such was the eats aordinary effect of this rule, that if a witness were to swear that all their Lordships were present at a certain meeting, unless their names were in the list, nut one of their Lordship. could be called to disprove the allegation. In the proceeding before their Lordships, however, an oppor tunity was furnished of calling such witnesses as it might be judged net yto adduce. Therefore the analogy between the cases completely failed. Unless, then, the House could strip themselves of their judicial capacity ; unless they said that they should hare no Se lect Committee—no Committee of the whole House, it ass impossible they could Froeeed with the Bill. If the proceeding was to be public, and Coo forbid that it should not—he wished to know upon what ground it Is apprehended that a full and fair investigation was ot to take place? Ile would ask, witbethe fullest assurance of being answered in the negative—was there a matt in that House, who, laying his hand to hi. heart, would say that a full opportunity was not to be given to the Illustrious Defendant of availing I: , ..seif of all the means of defence which it was in the owes of any defendant to make use of—of sifting o ttnesses, and counteracting their evidence. This was r ise which ought not to be considered with refer :! e to the Illustrious Individual who was must intl. §Jtelv concerned iu it, bat upon general principles. It their Lordships were now to concur in doing that witch WM! Noble Lords asked hint to do, and wake preced..nt of It, he would ask, could they expect ever again to proceed as their ancestors had dune?—(Mar, lie2r !) The motion was then agreed to. Lord Ltvita root. then moved, in order, be said, to en , ore a fill! attendance of their Lordships on that d v, that there shall he a call of the House.—Agreed to. The following Resolution was then agreed to, ‘• Fliat no Lord shall absent himself on that day with -4110 leave of the House ;" as also the following, "That th- Right Hon. the Lord Chancellor do write letters to each of the Lords of that House, acquainting then ss::ta the foregoing Resolutions."—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mosoar, it:Lir 10. 1 he Sramma took the Chair at four o'clock. Mr. Johnson, from the office of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, appeared at the Bar with certain Papers, heinjr an recount ~f the amount of the Brand Jury A..,*ar , ients in Ireland.—Laid on the table. fit. Bt. iccoiruti presented petitions from Binning t•rt and Manchester, praying fur a free trade to India. 117.'ered to lie on the table. _ 0 the mAion of Sir H. Paassu., the House re sqlved i!se'f i.ito a Committee ou the Irish nth, Leases Hill ; an i the report was ordered to be received forth av;tl., and to he taken into further consideration this day months. Sir W. CURTIt moved the Order of the Day for re r-ia in; the Report of the London Militia Bill ; which h lying heen brought up, was ordered to be recommitted t ) morrow (this day). Colonel Minas presented a petition from Richard Williamson, complaining that the Hank of England Lad availed itself of an invention of his for the preven tion of forgery, without giving him any remuneration. I.‘id on the table. OREACH OF PRIVILEUES.—Sir R. HERON staved to the House, that he understood Sir W. Man nerN for whose apprehension the Speaker's warrant had been issued, was now in custody of the Serjeant at Arms, and that two of the witnesses who had been summoned by the House were in attendance. He should move, that the Order of the Day for the attendance of Armstrong Jarvis be discharged, as it appeared he was at present confined in Newgate. He should, probably, have shortly a petition to submit from that individual, praying for the lenity of the House, which he thought ini4ht to be extended to him, as be was obliged to act under influence. The Order of the Day was then discharged. as was else that for the attendance of the witnesses, William Manson. Nrri. aril Wm. Atter. Mr. Wvax agreed that the indulgence of the House eight to be extended to Armstrong Jarvis, as it ap peared that he was not a f'ee agent in the proceedings. 't he Hon. Member then moved, that the Order of the Day be read for moving the committal of Sir William Masser' to his Majesty's gaol of Newgate. Sir J. 011414.1111 contended, that it was impossible Sir W.. Manners could have been aware of the proceedings , . 1 . of the House. haring left his residence bcfore the ' Npealter's warrant readied Buckaminster. He therefore 1 . thought it woad be a most severe measure to punish him under such - circumstances, and should move that die Order of the Day be discharged. • Ur. Pllll4lllllOlllll said, Sir William Mangers had • a t the Order of the tiouse at defiance, and be ought • . to he made to suffer fur it. The motion fora com e, ailment did Dot ineltule Sir William Manners only ; it likewise affected. Arasstrorg Jarvis; and nothing i coail be while t vras .all nit?. li cost%itieril M r. Ti on the several witnesses whose testimony was cassi-1 deed indispensable. Those witnesses were now in attendance, but it appeared that the parties who had summoned them did not attach so mnrh importance to their evidence as they at first stated, for they evinced no disposition to have them 'itemised. His persua sion, therefore, was, that such bring the case, it would be a severe measure to punish those on the op posite side in this affair. be SPEAWralled the Hon. Member to order, and asked if be ever knew a case where the authority of the Speaker's warrant was questioned, merely on se coma of the nature of the evidenre to be produced in the tarsi'. at Issue Such • principle would tend MI overturn the %hole of the Statute Law of the land, and he could nut help again stating, that the Hon. Mem ber was quite out of order in advancing it. Taxstvsox said a few words nearly to the same import as bi.fore, and was" again reminded from the Chair of being out of order. A short conversation then took plasm on the subject between Mr. WYNN, Colonel Wools, Mr. CALCRAIT, Mr. lioll.111:11N, Mr. W:toTT11111111, and Sir J. MACK INTOSH, after which the original question was carried without a division; and the Speaker was ordered to issue his warrant forthwith for the committal of Sir 1 William Minutes to Newgate. Mr. LITTLITON presented a petition from the mas ter manufacturers of Staffordshire, praying that the duties on china and earthenware exported to Ireland should be discontinued. 'I he Hon. Member, at the same time, gave notice, that lie should move that the words " China and Earthenware" be erased from the Bill pending on the siihject. Sir J. Ikawroar said a few words, and the petition was ordered to lie on the table. SEA OFFENCES BILL—Sir W. SCOTT moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Sea Offences Bill. Sir J. Macilwrosu suggested to the Hon. and Learned Metnber the propriety of allowing more time for deliberatii,n on the subject. lie therefore wished that the Bill should be printed, and in the hands of Members, before the second reading took place. He understood the object of the Hill was to extend to of fences committed on the sea, the punishment awarded to offences on land. Sir W. Scots disclaimed and• intention to precipi tate the Bill, anti thought th-t sufficient time had been allowed to put the House in possession of its merits. Sir Isaac Counts thought this one of the most ne cessary and important -measures that could be pro- posed to the deliberation of the Rouse. Sir J. Macutstrosn concurred with the Hon. Mem ber, that this was a necessary measure, bat certainly not one of the most necessary or important that could be snbmitted to the House. The Bill was then reed a second• time, and to be committed ern Wednesday. Sir G. MIA. moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Irish Paupers' Removal Bill. Mr. %V. Psursata. adverted to the hardships to which Irish paupers were exposed on their removal 'from England. He said, a doubt existed whether the chil- dren of Irish poor were liable to be removed, though some eminent Counsel had given an opinion that they were. He thought it might he expedient for the Irish Government to grant small awns of money to wards providing for those paupers on their retnrn to their own country, as they were left entirely destitute, and had no parochial relief to resort to. Sir Joi n s Nswroar thought that the principle of the Bill would operate to the prejudice of the inhabit ants of those districts where the paupers s►ould land. The Bill proposed that they should disembark at four different ports, and the people in the vicinity of these ports were to be burdened with a temporary provisioe for them in the first instance—while the paupers, find lag tht-aiselves so well off, would be induced to fix a permanent residence in the neighbourhood, and thereby add to the grievance. Sir JOSZPN Yoe'', said, he should have no objec tion to support the Bill, if it contained any clause se keep the Irish paupers at home whim they got there. He hoped the Hon. Member bad made some provision for this. He assured the Hon. Member that this would be a most desirable object, as he was frequently an noyed in the streets by the importunidn of persons whom he knew, from their brogue, to be Irish paw pers.—(A laugh.) Mr. Hainaut, supported the Bill, and entered into a statement to show the heavy burdens which Irish paupen occasioned to the metropolitan parishes. Mr. G. ORAN? said a few words; and, the Bill hay ing been read a second time, the Report was ordered to be received on Wednesday next. OPHTHALMIA.--Mr. Baorrres moved for a Re turn of the Number of Soldiers who are now-receiving Pensions on account of Blindness. The Hon. (heti.- Man. in introducing his motion, took tweasioteet ad vert to the great services rendered by the Ophthalmic Institution. Sir T. Act AHD thought it would be proper to ascer tain whether the eases were curable or not before pen sions for blindness were granted. It would be wrong that a person young sad vigorous should receive a pension after be had been restored to his sight, in a ease which was considered incurable. Mr. BIPINIT spoke briefly in explasation. Lord PaLstnarron said, that dna are had been taken in awarding pensions, that the übjeets should be such as were entitled to them. Sir hotline Yuan did not consider Sir W. Adams entitled to any greater praise for successful prattle, in cases of Opthaintia, than any ordinary surgeon. He bad selected only inch cases as be thought• alight easily be cored. Mr. BAIKAM vindicated the mods of troatment adopted by Sir W. Adants.—Metion agreed to. Mr. RICARDO moved for an &result of the W* bee of Clalions of Foreign Wine and Spirits imported freer the 6th of July, 1819, to the fth of July s 111110. distinguishing the ansosat of doles and iinisUelts.— Ordered. BAST INDIA VOLUNTEERS' BILL 3h. Can. mute moved the Order of the Lay for receiving the .; tore, and to w Isere -an senonot. -They bid now under lock and key property ausenoting to at least 12 or 13,000,000/. They bad property of their own to the value of 8,000,0001. and that belonglug to Individuals could not be estimated at lees then from 4,000,000/. to 5,000,000/. They had, besides, a large depot of not less than VOW stand of arms, which it would he obviously 'titulary to secure in the event of any disturbance in the metropolis. Mr. Bennet, opposed the Bill, on the ground that the force called fur was of an unconstitutional nature. Au Hon. Mimosa, whose name we could not learn, supported the Bill. The Report was then received, and the Bill was or dered to he read a third time to-morrow. LIMERICK ELECTION—Mr. DALY moved, that Mr. Henry D'Esterre be called to the Bar, in order to be discharged out of custody. Sir J•ataa lIACIIINTOKIII rose to express his regret that an individual who held so respectable a ,•t•tio■ in life as the unfortunate gentleman who was the sub ject of this motion, should have been guilty of an of fence so truly degrading in its nature, and so abhorrent from every well-regulated mind, as prevarication upon oath—•{Hear, hear!)--He did not wish, however, to press too severely upon that unhappy individual, though his decided opinion was, that he ought no longer to be considered worthy of retaining the office he filled, and ought at the same time to be degraded front that honour.►ble professi,n, whi.•b his conduct had dis graced. A MEIIFIER, whose natio. we were not able to ascer tain, said, that the whole Corporation of Limerick was in a most scandalous state of corruption, and that the first step towards reforming it ought to be the removal of Mr. D'Esterre :rum his Mr. DALY disclaimed any wish to shield Mr. D'Es terre from punishment. Ihe office he held was an elective one, and the person was chosen annually. He did not think it likely that the lewd Ligutenant, whose approbation was necessary on the occasion, nould sanction the election of Mr. E'Esterre after what had occurred. Sir J. MACKINTOSH hail no other olv;ect than that the House should receive some assurances that Mr. D'Esterre should not be retained in his situation. It would be an outrage upon justice, were such an indi vidual suffered to remain in the place he filled. Mr. iirt•Ne intimatetl, that the subject would lint taken into serious consideration by the Irish (lover*. went, and he thought he might promise that the Loft Lieutenant would not agree to the re-election of thil individual in question, after so decided an expression of the feeling of the House. Sir J•MAII M•cutviositt.—fily object is perfectly answered. Mr. IlAveatt wished the motion postponed, in order I who eosseertalwithether Mt. D'Esterre might not be die ea , posed to resits in the interval between this and the of ensuing elottion. a use, After a few words from Lord C•wri.x tester and Sir o dd 1. GRAHAM, Mr. D'Esterre was galled to the Bar, and tale , the SPEASKR havitig, in the usual form, addressed Mm Member by name, proceeded to deliver his reprimand, which th e ' was nearly to the following effect :—By the Report of upon a Select Committee, appointed to try the merits of a ; st a i ne d petition, complaining of an endue election and ratans I b eca u s e for the city of Limerick, he (D'Esterre) bad been proved I wa s guilty of gross prerarication upon oath it that else- where , tion, for which offence he bad been committed to his Ma- I j u dicial I Joey's gaol of Newgate, by an order of the House. His I character•of petition praying for a release from custody had been re- picion, eeived by the House, and they had in consequence or- the - tiered him to be brought to their Bar to be reprimand-' most ed and discharged. If it had been his dirty to repel- I not nand one among the lower ranks of life, who perhaps a ny legal might not be aware of 'the moral obligation of an obvious ' oath r one who was half educated or half ignorant, de n , the impression upon Ms feelings, which such an of- Commil knee as gross prevarication upon oath, an offence that' f ro .- differed more in a legal than in a moral sense from gross perjury, would be infinitely less severe than at present. But when, upon such an occasion, it became his duty to eddies. a person of liberal attainment, who was a member of an honourable ptofession, and who held a high official situation, it was impossible for ' to expatiate in terms such as it deserved on the famy of the crime committed by that individual, 801 on the enormity of his caudate. But the mind of tai person whom he now addressed, better than any watt which he (the Speaker) could make use of, would re proach him for having disregarded the sacred oblige- dons which truth and justice imposed. He had now only to communicate to him the Order of the House, that he be discharged from custody on payment of his fees* and he was therefore discharged aeeordingly. Mr. D'Esterre thee withdrew from the Bar. Tbt Cwatrescsma of the Biennoma moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Sale' of Spirits Bill. Mr. MAMMAS, opposed the motion, on the grailoi a that the Standing Ordet recently established HMO hip Bills for the Rigriatioa of Tradchad last heel IS.' lota with. a. • I Mr. 11. SNIT* objected to the Bill, issilbg (aka lased to destroy the existing trade. Lord CSSTIAINIAGII and Sir JOHN NZWPONT argued Nat the Bill did mot some within the operation of the Order. /be Seeks ea spoke briefly oa the Same *inject, and .the bill was read a second time, and ordered to be astamitted to-morrow. orral ohedi and clause conc. Period • elan- COCO. Of meal It ANY they sew, ...-_ . eiresoistanees Int On the motion of Lend PALIIIIIIIIIOI. the- Roan to. solved itself late a Committee •n ~ ehle SIM* OK Colonel Woos objected to a %lease Introduced into the Bill last year, dot taking sway the metros! which the Colosols had ode the stadia/ of their regiments. Lord Pasonasnott defended the necessity of the clause. The Mose haviag seamed, the Report was *fasted to be received to-adorrovr. SLIM RILL-14os the motion of Lord Canna muse, that the Hone resolve heelf into a Csaunhese of the w►ole Rouse apes the Mien NW Sir J. Illacstyleete Me. met *the Intyposs of en wrist late any geseval discussion of theiseerits of thin that it be an instracti to to the r certain clauses which he should '1 he last time this Bill was i n . House, in the year 1818, his Illa j . estes proposed it upon no other ground than 'ranch exiles, and three Prentb _.. r ,rs established in the Netherlands. This ground was deemed suft.ci.•nt fur withdrawing the p ro . tection of the laws front 22,000 foreigners uho Were thing in this country. lie would not du ell upon t h e a►surdity of supposing, that, under existing circum stances, incendiaries from Seville, or Berlin, or Park, were likely to avail then selves of tumults at Glasg ow or Manchester. This miserable reason for continuing the measure, had been t :posed by all the powers of wit sad reason, and had been justly held np to the scorn and derision of the House. Under tbesecircumstances it was far from his intention to do what was totally uncalled for by any arguments that had been offered on the other side, namely, to enter into any gen era l disrassion of this question. He believed it was de n object of his Majesty's 31inisters to wear out the p s . Grace of their opponents, and to persist in offerin g no arguments in swpport of the measure till out of mew lassitude no opposition should be w.►de to it. Hoer. ever paradoxirml it might appear, this Bill was likelt to emit on till it became part of the law of the lam, merely beeause the objections to it were never. aoswer. etl: Upon the present occasion he should make so further observations upon this most tyrannical and mt. crable measure, for so he should never erase to call it, but be should proceed to move that it be as instrsc. Lien to the Co 11111 l ittee of the whole House to receive and consider certain clauses, which might in some degree mitigate its effects. In the Alien Bill of 1814, a sort of appeal was given by which the Privy Come i was enabled to consider sty excuse offered on the part of the Alien ; hut as it had been held that the Alien could neither examine witnesses nor be heard by Coati. sel, the duos.. was in elfe.l a mere nullity, and a mockery ni.on the person aggrieved. The object s{ his first amendment, th :efore, was to enable the Alien to defend himself against any charges which might be made against him, either in person or by Counsel, and to examine a itnesscs before the Privy Council for that purpose. The second clause which he had to propose, would pat the sincerity of his Majesty's Ministers to the test, since he presumed the object of this was is Ilff!xtratorillnary power to Government, to enable r ttect the country against the machiwitions of gas persons ; an.l since it was not pretended that -• applied to foreigners of whose pacific clam. doubt i him Now, so ANN. ►. NMMIsI . , oak. Gentleunao, Bill deco Swipe, Wise warmth. The by won • kr ow we/ the J 1 * *be! i l l co he hi M • THE ,S7ATES lAN • . .._ ~ r. p. be trio utittathan ( fro iasprial setfan floctilof4ltis • . The Right Flan. Gestlessen, in qiestion, but to mov• t 'ha master , kbo bad been the pfloci °Wader, t ceitse of oiservations which &e dads to r ebmmittee to consider llowed to be allowed to be at large frith Impu - snow Pie ev trey 6f the measure, w stated, that it was submit to the /louse. Impartial justice ought tu be duo* without most necessary that Na Saes -iwili•Aleespaay *beak' , frothier(' to the House, wing the rank of the parties. have a force at their disposal to protect their ware- Ministers had propose 4 Texxvsoto said. that warrants bad been served imams, which coalairMillsrepetti of so valuable a na- that there were 3t4 Fre actor and int •otions no doubt could be entertained, his -Ai eft clause went to protect men of tb is eh araeter from the d peration of the Bill—to exempt foreigners who bad I ken every pledge of attachment to the country, sad a beilience to the laws, which the possession of property, ted the most unexceptionable conduct could give. Ihe JP louse wonid eximpt all foreigders who had settled is this ' I Junky before the year 1814. He had Chosen that erica/. as a teat and criterion of honesty, because the "0 louse would not extend to Napoieonists or Jacobite I rho did not leave France before that period. nor to ... 1 1 ay class of men Who could be supposed to be desirous f disturbing the peace of the country. The third I lOase, which it was his intention to propose, was of till greater importance, and one to which be would ale the liberty of soliciting some attention from every lubber of the House. It had reference to a subject, be discussion of which he had deeply lamented, and pen which, for many reasons, he had hitherto ab. . .4 mined from making a single observation, principally . ; • amuse be wished to preserve that temper, which it .. • ras so highly necessary to maintain in a proceeding rhere the House might be called upon to exercise its , adicial functions. It was most important that the haracter of the House should not be brought into sus- .9 ' icion, or that the slightest doubt should be cut upon .1. he strict impartiality of its proceedings upon this sost painful proceeding. That the prosecutors ought of to have any undue influence over the witnesses is ny legal proceeding, was a proposition too simple sad . , bvions to require any illustration. It was his hoer • ion, therefore, to move that it he an instruction to the :onrittee to receive and consider a clause, exempt's, rom the operation of this Bill all witnesses who might one into this !wintry to be examined as whom.' for • r against her Majesty the Queen. It was extremely essential that his Majesty's Ministers, who were ces. titutionally the prosecutors in this case, should ad • *seen the means of refusing her Majesty themsens d leftism, by excluding her witnesses ft** We emote" t was equally necessary that they shoats tistrmisse Beau of bani‘hing their own witnesses ; for althellgbils lid sot sappi,se that they would exercise such arum: bey would be enabled to suppress all that testiest* • s'' which was disagreeable to them. The Hon. Membit . ' s• Proceeded to move his first clause : . 1 . , " That the Leeds of the Pri”. C o un c il shall emu SO Ilk ' 1 Islivortml to the Al.. a IptumeW usanwery of the saliteMs sib . (aged Wilms him. sod album hies a reasonable tithe tepee. ! I pare his defames ; sad that it shall be 'weal for the Alio to rumble we isser,. sad to he beard Aber by biome sty .• Consul is his delesee." Lord CAITLIRIA9II said, that none of the duals ' ' . proposed by the Mow. and Learned Gemara* OM 4 . mew, except the last, which arose out of the wailer , eireamestances la Which they wets now placed. TM first clause proposed by the Hon. aid Learaed Sado- man, was to enable the Privy Council to ludas* • judicial inquiry Into the atom for which in alien . yes •' Not out a the country, and to furnish a mg, statement of the circumstances which might' y him an object of jealousy or suspicion to the r Now. it was obvious, that if there was any grsomelbt ' 1. as Alias Bill at all, eases west often arise la Ai* , tliwpolltiral reasons Web might render it expoillef , .. * send an alien out of the country, could wt be • *rowed. As to the second clause proposed by the Hos. Gentleman, to take out of the vendee if fill Bill all foreigners who bad settled in this Cossul . since the year 18141 It too mach to misuse that lif foreigas who had happened to reside hem darts'. . wareould pentibly be an object of jealousy to slif Stam- ina sal; just distinction .hick could he resegfisid • by the Legislature, was that hetweeo foreigners la , were eataralised 1* this tenantry, and A tee who erred ad 'ingenue la this cos atry. If he had iskjeclias ' . to the two list clauses. his objection to the Oda Int ' , laisitely drover. He could not eweeeive • a sof; feel itspetation epee the 10•Ternement of h 410014 , , • than it should be suspected of e xercising:l4par 611 obstruct the purposes ofjoitice. Did doe Deentweldf • . . Of It ~~ I