The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-07-05 00:00:00

t r. ) 1 ~ k i I S I G' 4( t , . II: it ~. : .- , i 1.,1 ,i: . , i : , • l ot. 1 . .. i la 1 • , 1 ' ';.., : 3, ) _ i , ..It 1 \''s . '.4r were agreed to, Could he anticipate any other effect from the labours of the Commission, than to revive forgotten animosities. or to exasperate those alteady existing. It would be, in fact, a sort of roving Com mission, appointed to receive every exa4gera tett stalß rnent which might be offered, without possessing the power of ascertnitting their accuracy by imposing any oath, or of punishing offenders who might be proved4(o+2*e depleted falsely. Such would be the extent and limit of its operation, for it would not be poskildc;TlVilie Crown to devolve upon it powers to punish; Witt could have been done only by a Par liamentary Commissiott. The Itight Hon. Gentle man then vindicated the character of the Magistrates and Juries of the North of Ireland, from the impu. tatirs cast upon them by the language of the Peti tions, stating it as his firm belief that no good gromuls existed for such insinuations, and concluded by obset ring, with respect to the motion before the Ilitirse, that on rout so ioul (I be more calculated to telletuve animosities, and therefore he should feel it his duty to oilpn..f• it. Mr. M. FITZG ER A Lt.) insisted upon the urgent necessity that some ramedy saoull be applied to the vet) , set ines evils which arose from the existence of Otange Societies in Ireland. Ile observed that the Petitions against them, which had been presented, were from Preshyteriaos and Quakers, two classes of persons who were not very likely to favour the views of the Catholics, but who petitioned against the Orange Societies, because by their proceedings they occa I tumults, confusion, and murder.-- lie roost solemnly and religiously Lettered, that in eneseqttence of those associations the laws could net be impartially administered in certain parts of Ire land ; and heti listed that the discussion of that night, stliether successful or unsuccessful, would have the sliest of callittg, not only the attention of Parlia ment, but of the public, to the subject. The Pro testants of Ireland, in fact, were more interested tsiatt the Catholks in having the system put down.— Ile should certainly support the motion, because, if carried, it would lead to a salutary investigation, to which he did not think any one could object. Mr. V. FITZGERALD said he had never heard a proposition submitted to that House in a manner at hid, was less likely to secure success, than the pre emit. The loose alleeations which were contained in the Petitions, how ever numerous they might be, and he beg'ed leave to disclaim any intetition of treating the Petitions of the people with disrespect, would not ho sufficient to justify that House in appointing such a Commission as was now moved for. Those allega tions were not only unsupported by evidence, or the shadow of any evidence, but even the persons who presented them ditl not venture to corroborate their averments by charging upon the present Government of Ireland any thing like partiality. It should be remembered also, as it was really an important cir. cutionance, that those parts of Ireland which wrro unhappily disturbed at the present moment, were universally those in wl , iclt none of the Orange As sociations existed. He tltoo;ht a Crentnission quite uttnecessa Ty ; linked no 611flicient Parliamentary ground had beet, laid for panting it ; and even if there had, he was sure it would never produce those bent fits w hich were expected. Mr. NI. FITZC. ERA ID explained. Gen. ARC li OA LI. said he was clearly of opinion that the Orangemen of Ireland had been the salvation of that coutot: v, and be r ould not, therefore, concur in a motion whirl' would seem to cast a reproach urn so meritorious a body. Sir H. PARNELL replied, and contended that nothing which had been advanced went to prove that Such a Commission us he moved fur would not be be. uefieial to Ireland. • Mr. PEELE explained._ Sir G. HILL opposed the appoin►ment of a Com. mission, contending that the conduct of the Orange. men was marked by delicate feeling towards the Catholics, anti that any agitation of the differences between them might be productive of injurious con. sequencev. The !louse then divided-- For the motion Aheilost it sit F 9 —69 On our return to the Gallery we found Mr. —GRENFELL giving a notice relative to the Bank, the precise nature of which the noise that prevailed prevented us from collecting. In answer to a question from Mr. BENNETT, as to the steps which Government intended to tnke in consequence of the Report made to that House by the Committee on Public Prisons, Mr. H. ADDINGTON said, that he could not at present state the exact course which it was intended to pursue. Mr. BENNETT then gave notice that he would himself bring the subject before the House. Mr. BARING (as we understood him) asked the Right nom Gentleman oppo , ite when it was intend ed to carry into effect the commercid provisions of the late Treaty with the United grates? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIII:QUER re plied, that be Bill recently passed %%mild give the Crown the opportunity of carrying those provisions into cifect during the re:oss. The CIL% NC !AA:. of the EXCIIEQUER presented a copy of the Bull of Pope Pius VII. for the testoroiion of the older of Jesuits.—[.l loud laugh.3—Ordered to ho piloted. THE DUKE 01: Sir J. NIAJORIBANIi.i, in a vcry low tone of voice, which rendered him almost inaudible in the Gallery, proposed his vote of thatAs to the Duke of York. for his conduct as Cominander-in-Chief. lie said that he could assure the House he was not actu ated by any undue motives of p . rivate or party feel ing, as lie trusted thoso who knew him would be ready to vouch. lie had not even the honour of being known to his Royal Highness ; atul his sole reason for coming forward on this occasion was his hope that the House might be induced to express their sense of the high services, rendered by his Royal highness to the country during the long period in which he I. Id had the chief command . f the army. His Royal Highness's conduct both in the dispensation of promotions, anti in all the complicated military ar rangements which his station imposed upon him, had eviuced an activity and a discrimination which re dounded to his honour. The illustrious Chief by whom the recent glorious victory had been obtained, bat!, on the occasion of his appearance at the bar of Olt House to acknowledge their congratulations ou his retain from the Peninsula, observed, that to the fnarery troops, and to the high slate of equip molt iii a hick they were maintained by the exrellent regulations of his Royal Highness the Commander in-Chief, he was indebted for the power of achieving those exploits which had acquired for him the appro bation of Parliament. Thl value of those regulations etas still snore unequivocally evinced on the late me n.orahle occasion. By the ample means afforded them, in addition to their native courage, the British army had !wen enabled to resist for hours the repeat ed and impetuous shocks of the enemy. Like the stubltorn oak, whick, with its roots deeply fixed in the earth, withstood the fiercest blasts of the storm, our gallant troops had borne without dismay the hot test assaults of the French army, until at length the moment arrived when in their turn they became the assailants, and carried destruction into the ranks of the foe.—[Hear', hair!]—.Late as was the period of the Session, he trusted that the House would not he sitate to express their approbation of the high and meritorions services rendered to the country by the Duke of York, and all that he regretted was that the motion had not been made by the Hight lion. Gen tleman opposite, in the pretty and modest manner in which he usually brought forward similar proleosi tion•t.—[.l laughl—Let the question, ho wever, ori ginate with %short) it might, the nation was under the deepest aligations to his It.o)al Highness, and he earnestly Mired that Parliament would assist in dis charging the deb•. !.eating it to their own CellSe of justice, he would not trouble them any further than by moving, •• That the Thanks of this House be given to his Royal High ness the Duke of York, Captain-General, and Commander-in Chief of his !ktajesty's forres, for his effective and unremitted ex ertions in the discharge of the duties of his high and impormut situa , mo, during the period of upwards of I o enty years, in the course of whirl, time the British army has :mai tied a state of dis cipline and skill before unknou o to it, and which exertions, under Prn‘idence, have been in a great degree the means of ac quiring for this country the high military glory which it eujo, s among the cations of Europe." The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER. was far from opposing the motion, although lie cer. tainly was of opinion that it would have been brought forward with more propriety at the close of the ser. vices in which our army was engage/ In no in. stance had any proposition of this nature been made at a previous period. At the same time he was sure that the li,tuse would do justice to the motives by which the Honourable Baronet was actuated, and to the feelings which he had expressed on the present occasion,—feelings excited by the recollection of the glorious esploits of our brave troops, who, by the active exertions of his Royal Highness the Com mander in Chief, were pot in possession of these means which had been wielded with so much success by them and their illustrious Commander. in ad verting to this subject he could not refrain from ob serving, that it was a peculiar and gratifying fact that the whole extent of the services rendered by the Duke of IVellington and the British army was known to us not by the modest recital of his Grace him self, hut by the narrative of our Allies, and by t con fessiotts of the enemy.—[llear, hear !J—'Those who compared these various documents would feo.l, that among the eminent qualities of our great Commander the modest simplicity with which he related his own exploits was oy no means the least.—[/Isar, hear!] -t( WAS, however, perfectly true, as had been said by the Honourable Baronet, that the exertions of our gal;atat tionpu could tint have been successful, bad tiley trot been in a state of unrivalled orguisiza. tiou. This was the case with every branch of the set rice. Whether the House considered the wi sh:lkt n firmness and intrepidity with which the sustained the shock of the enemy, or the ye 'lenience and force with which the cavalry charged the hostile ranks, they must feel that. much was at tributable to the military equipment and arrange ments, which it had been his Loyal highness's sole object, for many years, to approximate as nearly to perfection as possible. He had not particularised the merits of the Artillery—not because lie was in sensible of their extent and imam: tance, but bucaase that was a branch of the service not immediately under the superintendence of the Illustrious rorsonage who was the object of the Honourable Baronet's motion. Gen. FERGUSON said, he had had an opportu nity of witnessing the rapid gr•wth and progress of the army, since it had been placed under the com mand of Isis Royal Highness the Duke of York ; and he considered it as a duty lie owed to the House and the country, to state that it was his firm belief, that the advantageous state of the army under his Royal Highness was derived entirely from him-- pica,- !)--lie was happy in having thil opportunity of paying Isis tribute to the merits of the Commander in-Chief. Mr. wrsTERN said, it was with considerable re luctance he rose to make any objection to a motion like the present, but he thought he was bound to do so, and it uas on constitutional grounds alone that he made his opposition. He trusted the House would do him the justice to believe that he was ac tuated by no wish to detract from the merits of the Illustrious Person at the head of the army. So far from this he was ready to allow, to the fullest ex tent, the services of the Royal Duke. He was not competent to judge of these services with accuracy himself, but he was ready to take the concurrent tes timony of those who were competent judges in their favour, and to abide by that decision. He gave, therefore, the fullest credit to the merits of his Royal Highness; but he could net distinguish the constitutional character of that officer from the per sonat of the Royal Doke ; and he believed that if the office of Commander-in-Chief had been filled by any other person than the Royal Duke, the present motion would not have been entertained by the House. lie saw nothing to distinguish the office of Commander-in-Chief from that of any other Member of the Administration—no difference, for instance, between it and that of Master-General of the Ordnance, the Secretary of IVar, or Lord Com missioner of the Admiralty. Did it ever enter into the contemplation of Parliament to return their thanks to any of the persons holding these se veral offices ? He would challenge the House to produce a single precedent in point, with the excep tion of the ♦ote of last Session in favour of his Royal Highness. Such a vote as that now demand ed would go to "create an anomaly In the Constitu tion. How did the Constitution know of his Royal . rule , TIM STATESMAN. Highness as Commander-in-Chief ? How eid it know th'ist the Royal Duke would not be removed from his office to-morrow ? They could not know him cemitit atioaa Ily. If the House should I4e after wish to vote an Address for his removal from office, they might be impeded by this act of their °a it. At the close of the last war, when the thanks of the House were voted to the navy and army, and when scarcely forty Members were present, it was, without any previous notice, proposed by the Mem ber for Taunton (Mr. Baring), that when the House voted their Thanks to the army, the Duke of York ought to he included. Ile certainly considered this as unconstitutional. But if the Thanks which were now moved for had been postponed for a similar pe riod, to the close of a war, there would be the less • objection to the measure. lie considered the time and manner in which this motion had been brought forward, independently of other objections, as ex tremely unfortunate for the Duke of York. It was unfortunate that no notice bad been given of such a motion, till after another Ilonourable Gentleman had sonic evenings ago introduced into another dis cussion the character and services of the Duke of York. It was more unfortunate still that the present motion should instantly follow the rejection of the grant to the Duke of Cumberland, that it should ap rear to arise out of that rejection, and that it Should be brougat forward un so short a notice, at so late a period of the Session. It would appear as if the discussion of the grant to the Duke of Cumberland had suggested the present motion. If the House were to adopt a measure of this sort, let it he post poned to the termination of the war, and after a full and fair notice. If he should not be convinced by some stronger reasons than any which he had yet heard, he would give his vote against the motion. Sir J. M AJORI BA NKS explained. Mr. W. POLE said he wished to state the senti ments of his noble relation, the Duke of Wellington, • respecting the services of that Royal Duke who was at the head of the army. AWould any man, with true British feelings, lay his hand upon his heart, and say that they ought lint to consider the merits of that great Personage, because he believed that if any other petson than a Prince of the Blood had held • that situation, the House would have taken no no -1 lice of his services ? Ile would say, that if any sub. jail of the nation had acquitted himself as the Royal Duke had done, the tkanks of the (Ions? would be • doe to him. V hi% advice had been asked with re spect to the present motion, he •should have said, ' wait till the war is over, and then give the grate ful thanks of the House to the Officer who is at the head of the army, he he who he may. Was that unconstitutional ? Were they to he deterred from thanking the Royal Personage who at present held the office, lest the House of Commons should afterwards think proper to vote his removal from office What then would become of their thanks to the Duke of %Wellington ? NVere they precluded from enquiring into the Duke of Wellington's con ;duct at any time hereafter, because they had former ly voted to him their thanks ? No.—The thanks of the House might he a guarantee to them that h I would always conduct himself in a manner deserving of them; but they would he no guarantee to any Commander, he he who he might, even the Duke of Wellington, who hail carried the glory of the Lit itish arms art high, that the House would not look with a jealous eye into his conduct. But the Honourable Gentleman had objected to the vote of thanks be cause it was unconstitutional, and he had afterwards said, wait till the war is over before proposing such a vote. If the vote was unconstitutional the objection against it would weigh the same at the end of the war as now. Be had risen simply to state, that the Noble Doke at the head of the army did believe that he could nut have won the battle, which was the cause of so much joy, if it had not been for the great :and unremitting exertions of the Duke of York— [Me", hear!]—that he could not have hoped for . success if the Dike of York had not dedicated his • whole caertious strengthen him.—[(/ear, hear n i —There were great difficulties in the way. The kn. provements which had taken place in that army astonished him. He conceived that they could only , have been the fruit of the most unremitting efforts.— Ilk Noble Relative was, above all, astonished at the impartiality—at the very few cases of grievance which had not been considered. Knowing all this, he felt that he should have ill disciArged his duty to the House and the public if lie had not stated this, and assured the House that no man in the country was more sensible of the merits of the Duke of York, and the accession of stieligth to the army which had been derived from them, than the Doke of Welling- • ' ton himself. The Doke, in his u.ual emphatic way, in a private letter, slier stating that be had never taken such pains about any battle, and that he never • was so near being beater, observed, " In my life never knew a British army behave so well." Ile made no distinction beta veil cavalry, infautiy, aml • artillery—all did equally their 'holy. Let it be heard by the country and the sve;:sl :hat the Member for Essex thought the person to uhmn the condition of that army was due, was n at entitled to the thanks of the House ; and that as they lad uo precedent fur • such a vote, it was unconstitutional. . Mr. A. BARING justified the part which he had taken last Session, when the name of the Doke of York had been wholly omitted in the proposed Vote of Thanks to the Army. Ile thought the Right Ho ' nourable Gentleman (Mr. NV. Pole) would have ; acted much more wisely in considering coolly the arguments which had been most modestly stated by his Ilmiourable Friend, who had not uttered a single syllable against the conduct or character of the Commander in Chief, than in adopting a tone of warmth altogether uncalled for. His Honourable , Friend had merely doubted whether the Commander in Chief was not more a civil officer of the Go‘ern ment than the Commander of the Forces properly so called. He himself thought that there was a dis tinction between the Commander in Chief and any Officer ander Government. Ile concurred with his Honourable Friend and the Chancellor of the Ex chequer in thinking, that this was not a time for bringing forward a subject like the present ; but whenever the vote was proposed, he felt it his duty to concur in it. At the same time he did not think it very conaitutional to call on the House to rote their thanks every six or nine months. Ile did not. however, see that the motion could wills any pro priety be withdrawn, as the motives might net ge. nerally be understood. He hoped the Vote of Thanks would be followed up with another motion for an additional provision to his Royal Highness; and if any proposal of that nature should be made, he shoul,l also feel it his duty to give it his support. With respect to the services of the Duke of York, most Gentlemen were aware that they were of a de. seription to take up a great portion of his Hardly any department of Government had been more regularly attended to. H e h a d i n d ee d b een Wormed that his Royal Highness was at his office more regularly than the Chief of any department wader Government, and that all the results had been pro. duced by the most unremitted exertions. His anyat Highness had now been a great number of years in his (Alice, without having re•cei►ed any addition to hit provision. It stood the same now as it was twenty. five years ago. He suggested the propriety of re• lieving his income from some of the incumbrancet contracted by him from the want of economy natu ral to youth, and to his high rank. No state of the finances ought ever to induce them to disregard claims which were entitled to their gratitude. Mr. B. %VI LBRAIIA M did not conceive thatany precedent was necessary to induce the House to tic. cede to the present motion. Colonel WOOD conceived that no officer was pre. eluded from receiving the Thanks of the House if he deserved them. In his opinion one or two altera. lions had been worked in the army by his Royal Highness the Commander in Chief, which could not have been worked by any man breathing but him. self. When he came into office it was the practice to buy commissions, and then running up the differ. ent steps all at once, this had been pot a stop to, and the highest ns well as the lo►vest was obliged to go through the different gradation►. Otte point was peculiarly deserving of notice—the British army, when he succeeded to office, was without tactics; no two regiments in the service acted on the same Sys. tem, and they could not be brought to act together. A system lit.d been introduced the most simple, yet the most effectual, by which troops from all parts of the world could be instantly brought to act to gether. _ _ Mr. METHUEN said, if it could he made not that the services of the Duke of York were not auf. ficiently provided for, he was ready to vote ■n ad. ditiunal allowance, but till that was explained he should not be doing his duty if against any such grant„ ~117,V177713Trinirallovred that there waii grist weight in what had falleu from in Uganivahlehitin. ber (Mr. Western), that, strictly, a Vote of Titmice was no more due to the Duke of York than to any (*i other Member of the Administration. If, however, that most grateful reward was conceded, he lam en t e d that pecuniary compensation should have been al. luded to, as an addition to the ample allowance el. ready given to the Commander.in-Chief. The prin. cipal cause operating in the minds of many Gentle• men, was undoubtedly the enthusiasm at present ex ' isting in the minds of all classes, which outstripped all precedents. ft wasto he regretted, that the bro. ther of t y lie Duke of Wellington (Mr. W. Pole) had thought fit to take so high and so lout; a tone upon this subject, as if (he House would be deficient in its duty. if it did not concur in the motion before it, sines Z it was unquestionably a suhject that admitted a doubt, even if it could not he said that the proposition. was not altogether improper: it was a motion in which many Members, and he for one, would rather cone than object, from the general warmth of feeling es isting in consequence of successes procured by the efficiency given to the army by the Duke of Yuck. When he saw the tribute in praise of our troops r 5. torted from the enemy, he thought it would be rather too ri ; ;icl, erect after the injudicious speech of Mr.W. Pole, to refuse assent to the motion. • r . 1 . 5 tar i r e r TIM Mr - suavity suppm motnfil. Mr. Serjeant I3EST, instead of objecting to the establishment of a new precedent in this case, would be very glad to see many of them on the Journals of the House. If it were objected that the Doke of York was merely a Minister, he would reply, that he should be glad to see similar votes passed to other meritorious Ministers, who had in no smail degree contributed to our signal success. He wished, how. ever, that the present vote had been postponed, and principally that it might have followed some testi mony to another Illustrious Personage, to which all our triumphs might be traced. If the Duke of York had brought the army to a state of unexampled per. fection, who was it that had placed his Royal High ness in the of of Commander-in-Chief ? The Frince Regent.—lf the Duke of Wellington had been victorious, who had given him the command of the army ? Th. Prince Itegeirt.—He begged the House to relle.a upon the state of the country at the time the Pr in aof Wales accepted the Regency. Lord W e ili eg ion was inclosed at the lines of the Torres Yedras, and the SpairislrGoverinnent was confined in Cadiz. It became a question whether we should tint o iihdra w from the contest, and the Prince Res g-ht, in the only way in which a Sz.vereign could (Leer mine it, had decided the question by taking to his Councils those Ministers who were willing to Prosecute the war with vigour, as diametrically op. posed to those echo were anxious to resi4u the cart. test, lie mars convinced that the gratitude of the (Iroise was due to no ran more than to the Prince Regent, and though from the ufficial situation he held, it nright, perhaps, not so properly devolve upon him, yet if no Gentleman more equal to the task %sonic: come fore aid on some future occasion, he should feet it incumbent open him to bring the most valuable services of the Prince Regent under the notice of Parliament. Alderman SMITIf qopported the motion, as well a% Air. 11. ADDINGTON. Mr. FORBES was in favour of a pecuniary re. Ward, as he understood that the Duke of York la. hooted at present under great difficulties. Mr. HART DAVIS spoke on the same side. After a few words from Sir J. MAJORIBANKS in really, the question was put and carried. 7- 7111rr ITT' 73- 'lTetiiii — np Bill Was read a tnirt. rime , passe - ; as ell as the Stage Conch Bill, after some remarks from Lnrd A. Ilattillto”, 4r. W. Smith, the Chan ce•llor of the Exchequer, Mr. Forbes, and Mr. But terwor',ll. On the guratiatt that the Report on the Bread .I,size 1311 he taken into further consideration, Mr. F. LEWIS presented a Petition from 800 Bakers is favour of it.