The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-02-22 00:00:00

r TIIE STATESMAN WIIIiMOMMID y .•••=•••••••••••=rmaiw.m• _ not in reality .o large and efficient as it appeared to ders while a war I , v:is going on, to give information be, nod it would well I)...iiie their Lordships to of what milers w easocretlyaolalressed to.thall• cause an enquiry to be instituted, in order to aster- She *obis:Fat:ft • sal* folst pane theelsiet motion tail, whether th ere was trio something radically wrong nth Intelsgenee fretilication 'of pea With in the whole systetn,—whether in the construction . America should imitate, it miglitaliminis% the objec of our ships we 'were not much inferior to other tions f o it. The Noble Earl had stated generally,that Powers, and whether we ought not to get rid of orders had been given to English frigntes not to en. many useless ships, that the remainder might be ran- rage an - enemy's ship; this wifk -- lint' so—hut the tiered more -effective. This Ull.l 'laterally a naval Noble Viscount replied, that he had no hesitation in country, and he trusted me long that the subject 9r saying, -that 11-aen.. English .frigate were to.court an the state of'our navy . WoUld be seriously taken up.— action with a French line-of-battle ship the Corns No aubject surely could be of greater itnportanc.e,.or mender-would subject himself to be fried •by a could better deserve the attention of their Lordships Court-Martial. . The AmeriCan vessels in queetion , and the British nation. were largely superior to our's, and' because the Ainc- Lord MELVILLE rid, it was not his intention ricans chosoto call them frigates, was it to be said,.' to oppose the motion, with the exception of the that our frigates were to be erinsidered a match for! last branch of it; but there were two topics in the them ?—The first knowledge of % such a circumstance Noble Earl's speech to which he wished to reply.— not only justified, but called upon: the Admimity to The first was a charge of deficiency in manning our state to all Commanders of our frigates that they ships, 'which rendered them unfit to encounter the were not to consider themselvet under any obligation American crews, and that our crews ought to con- •to meet them, and Ire who would have shrunk from silt of picked men as they are. It was very easy to advisingloch a measure, did not deserve to retain his say this ; but if the Noble Earl meant to convey 1 situation at the •Artniiialty Board an hour. The that it was impossible for us to do so, he had been Noble Viscount complained , of this preliminary mat guilty of an absurdity so striking, that it was not ter of the Noble Fart after the notice he had given ; necessary to reply to it. Tire British navy consist- for not an article of his charges loot any thing to da ed during the war of 140,000 men, and it was with the Board of Admiralty. Every Paper should be . impossible to pick men out of this number for produced ; hat it was very hard to be kept in sus every particular class of ships. It was equally i pease month after month, Session after Session, and impossible to pick men, and send there to the coast then to be called upon for heaps of paper which had of Ametien. Litoldes several of the actions alluded nothing to do with the Beard of Admiralty. to had been fought off the coast of Brazil and Por- Lord DARNLEY replied, and consented to with tugal, and not near the coast of America. To pro- draw the motion objected to (tio. the 13th), upon vide a competent crew adequate to man every ship which the rest were tarried mein. digs. was all that the Board of Admiralty could do. It j BuiTtstt Tr:OOP:4 Alift()An. was not the sistem of the British navy to pick men, Lord GREN VILLE moved the Order of the Day amid he had no hesitation in saying that it would for his motion for la% ine before the House, Ist, 'a be injurious to that system to do so. As to in- statement of the established rind effective force now creasing, the complement of men, would any naval maintained by us in the differeie. foreign stations in toimilsistration he justified in cramming ships with j Europe ; and 2dly, a statement of the established rouse men than health would allow, to be sent on a and effective force of the Stall; both at home and long voyage to the coast of America, to meet Ameri- abroad, in different parts of the world. At the out ships with an equal number of men off a coast opening of the Session he called the nttention- of the into which they could put for the purpose of recruit- House to a circumstance quite unparalleled in the ing whenever they chose ? England had an immense history of the e orld. When the success of our trade to protect in all pants of the world ; and it was Allies put a period to a contest of twenty year, we absolutely impossible, in the long voyages which i were found for twelve months afterwards still conti. English ships had to perform, to relieve the crews so nuing to maintain an immense army in different parts as to present their health from being injured. The lof Europe. By the arrangements made for bringisil. American blockading ships, and our SS gun frigates, the Allies together, the berthen of maintaining this were both called frigates; but they were not of the I army fell upon our shoulders—not until the object same class of ships : and because they had two or hof the meeting should he gained, or even till a tea ehree frigates or sloops of war of this larger size, souable time afterwards, but—for the whole of the were we not to send to sea any ship of inferior force current year in which the engagement was made.- -or because the Americans had three or four such The consegnence was, that up to the •close of last ships, sere no to build all our's of the same size?—! year, till within sit weeks of the time at . which the What did the Noble Elil mean by saying, that it Noble herd was speakine, we had been subsidizing was twee sary for us to have vessels of a similar de- not only the military, but the umnilitary Powers of scription ? Ile (Lord M.) admitted the principle of Europe, and maintaining armies a rraeged, some very building our ships of war and cruisers according to nearly in direct war against each other, and the those of the enemy to which we were opposed; and greater part in martial array ; and we' ;Intl exhibited this principle had been acted upon, when we built to the world the example of maintaining enulliming our frigates of the size of the French: but all that -Powers in order to enable Mein, by a hostile army, are could do to oppose these American ships was to ito support opposite and contradictory objeebs. At have a certain number of the same size. The Noble length we had arrived at the period, when the last Earl complained that we had but ton many vessels ofisum of money had been paid to these foreign Powers; a small description : but it was necessary to have a !and we had now 'leisure to Inuk to e !let rent:lined to number of these Tor the protection of trade ; wind if : us for our own security, and for liaatenirig our hur the Noble Lail contended that one large vessel was thens. Yet the close of our Military eccettor onul.! better than two small ones for this purpose, he was{ prove that we had been maintaining e 13tamr army at issue with him, and he appealed to ally naval officer r than we had ever before in any part of Europe, the to decide the question. There was not a single convoy I expence of which was to fall upon the already over in which n dem old was trot made for small vessels: , barthened shoulders of the people of this 'country.— arid Sir Alexander Cochrane desired ten or twelve • The question of the propriety of this measure was more } san-brigs to bo sent out to him, as - being the not to be argued oil time present motion ; but his most useful riles of vessels fur operations on the Lordship was maxim's that the fact should at last Ainetican coast. Bat then the Noble Earl said, , come on the table in snore regular mid connected flint these gut-brigs %sere not lit to meet the Ameri- form, and not merely be to be collected from some curl sto.Ts of ear. Who ever said they were ?--.. hint or speech heard by few at the close of a Session. Lis t flies were useful for the protection of trade, in- The fact was important and new : it was wholly un asiriech as no American privateer would come near precedetsted ; and if it could be justified, he was then. As to the construction •of our ships, the anxious to know the grounds of that justification._ Noble Earl could not select any class of ships which When it should "come to he considered, there would had peen built for a ce..tury past (dad he shoal(' be two views of it, which lie did not now mean to have the records of tee ally to assiit him), armie, bat of w hich he thought it fair to put the ships bliiit upon precisely the same model, of which House distinctly in poistosion. The first was the some bird turned out not good, and some bad; of effect of the measure upon our finance ; and the 2,1,! which tort 'wen prii , etl, and otill•IC ithIISCII. its Wed 111)011 our political interests at home and Wilether it was not possibm to build ships so nicely abroad. When we were brought to the period of the as to make all upon the same model lure out precise_ • restoration of peace this time last year, not a meraent ly alike, was more :lain lie could pretend to say : should have been lost in replacing us in the enjoy. but there was one topic in the Noble Earl's speech meat of the advantages of peace, of which we stood of real importance, newts, that in which he spoke so especially in need: for we had made exertions on of the degree of skill and science with which British known to our ancestors, and to any other country; ships were constructed ; nod charged us with deli. and these exertions were made their Lordships knew ciency in these qualities. Amid here . the Nohle Vis- . with %stint cheerfulness, because they were vitally count ( \blink) was uefortunately compelled to necessary to our perseverance in the struggle.— agree a i.ll the Noble Etrl ; and he did it safely, for Whatever difference of opinion there was with respect it was stilted in the rep its upon their Lordships' to tine measures of Ministers, there was none of tine table. !lat Idsine on this score was not imputable necessity of hazarding every thing to maintain the to the Board of Oilmi e llty •!* this day or the pre- contest. The country did this in the hope of laying ceding dos ; for the ii h.r I existed for a century some claim (which no generous breast ought to with past. Neither did toe Warne attach upon the de- stand), to an intimation mid ardour to relieve them paitinent inn which the incompetence was proved, for from their burthens, when such relief should be prae. no men were more meritorious in their line than the ticable, equal to, or even snrpassing its own ardour officers of that department. But it was found, that .to submit to them. When the creitinuance of the French, and even the Russian and Danish shipswrights, British force on the Continent should b•coinematter were mimic capable of uniting the theory of naval of consideration, it would be for those who justified architecture with the practice than the English the measure to show, not some speculative benefit ship-builders. The Noble Lord here read an extract from it, but a necessity so imperious as to oppose from a Report of the Committee for revising time their most repugnant feelings against it. He believed Civil Concerus of the Navy, from which Committee, they *nubd be aide to show nothiug more than a I: , said, more good effects had arisen to the public palliative for the measure. They would next be than from any similar institution. It stated upon called upon to show some political advantages which the subject of the education of our shipwrights, that there was reasonahle ground of hoping might arise unless the Is stem were altered, not even a single good from it. The Noble Earl had last night announced, working-twin would be found in the yards: that no not a certain bat a probable time of laying before the Liar attached to. the officers of those yards : that House the result of the late negncintions; and having many were men of natural parts and great skill ; and given this degree of explanation, he (Lord Grenville) if they had little kitovt ledge of time theory of naval had no intention of prematurely discussing them.— , architecture, Governmeet was chargeable with the Till last 'light, however, nothing like a hope of their defect, in not having provided them with the Means being at on em.d hall been :Oven, and the country hid of leastiiii:t it. This Report was presented to the been, bound to risiotain an army, not se long as its King in Iliti6; mid:was laid before the Board of Ad- own interests e e•e concerned, but till the conclusion tnitalty in I sO7, amid the recommendations of it of tiegociatioits over which it had no controul, and were ordered to he carried into effect during the which might hate lasted for a number of years, ex- Administration of a Noble Friend behind him.— ceedieg any n tiich titiglit be mentioned by even one The Noble Viscount thee replied to some minuter who wi-iced to put an exaegerated number for Bee points d the Notdo Earl's speech. The motion sake of shoeing the absurdity of the stipulation). As which he must oppose was the last', namely, for a to the second nv•ion, it was still less necessary to say copy of the sappesad orders . to prelaihit our frigates tnuali ; for is hiceser opinion there might be of the po (tom erkaging with the large American vessels; and lily of a particular measure, no one would deity the he opposed it, first, hr cause thomotion would net right of time House toastioe , what steps hettbeett taken procuie :fie Noble Eat I Lis -desired information ;.acid to uoc'.cc'' ear ea amuliture in that lo aneli of k which, Lit:iiise it umn, HA fm! to call upen Coltman- in the common uat:e.:slaiidieg end feeling of the country /nod Wildly called for it. He s tact-get ' i autiBpate.the result of the papej.ernovod or ;Um Howie would judge of them. 'lf'' he, we peftifte fli te anxious for the paper in question, the Wel nee of this day had increased his ausiety to a degree which I lie could hardly describe. His intention was to bring the peace establishment to the lowest level ;, and be Would - hereafter State on what grounds; he' was perfectly-persuided It might be reduced in esta blishment, if not in expence, very nearly, if not quite, to the level upon which it was when we first commenced the Continental ear; From the reports which he pow heard, he believed the question would be not what should be our peace establishment,'but whether it was ever meant to have a peace establish ment at all. He hoard ideas floating, and he had been told today that there was actually an assembly ! of. Gentlemen who had endured to hear, with satis ' factirm,.a statement otos peace establishment of. 19 millions per annum. Did they know what it was at the close of the American war? The great and up right man who wes Prime Minister then, and who not only knew whenever resistance was necessary, but had a spirit of resistance, proposed to a Com. mittee of Parliament then the detailed estimate of a peace establishment. This was when France was a far greater and richer power than she is now, and when we had not a single Ally in Europe; when even Holland had been torn from us ;_ and th e peace establishment then proposed was not five millions and a half per annum. After the experience of five years, he thought he had put the amount below what was necessary, and he resorted to the same distinct intelligible mode of statement, and the establish-• ment was put at six millions. Ile did not rest there; hut after seven years of peace, when the country assumed a new face, when its commerce and ma nufactures flourished in a manner in which God grant they might again,—in the year 1792, he pro posed to reduce this sum by 200,0001.; and it was known that these different establishments did not r.2st in estimate only, but the expeuce was actually reduced to that level. Since lie lied • seen the ap palling statement to which he alluded, he had not been able to consult written documents, but he had looked into a printed statement, the accuracy of which he could not doubt, which staled the supply of the year 1792 at not six millions. Thus it was when the contest broke out. Let the House cast its eyes on our present situation, and what it was in 17112, end thee ask what must be the feelings of any men who t• eth! be a party to, or who had dared to acquie;ce in a peace establishment of 19 millions. — I He saw no reason for any considerable increase be yond what our establishment was in 1792. He knew the necessity of garrisoning two or three towns, which we had not then, veould be replied to him ; but lie pledged himself to prove that it "'vas only no , cessury to gerrison one of them, and that the others e guild not requi , e it; and there was one possession, the expellee of maintaining which must be admitted to be less now than it was in 179 . 2,—he•niluded to . the Fa.t. ladies. Ile Was aware that more expence was eeceseiry for maimtaining the establishment, and he w ,i s r e edy to meet it. Ile had no desire to object teat the pay of our troops had been increased; he ceeetri reit in lii,` 11)(15 , tri_., was in `car t instrumental to it, and was convinced of its necessity. .11e, therefore, did not ask •.Ministers to return to the precise sum of the peace establishment of 1792; but lie coetradeil that the force should be the same, or nes, l'y so. Ile shoillil lias'e thought lie had deserted his duty if he had heard This rumour on any day, and hail omitted to call the l atteivion of the - House the same day to the dreadful purpose which• was har boured, of making this country a great military poWer, for no mail could propose a peace establish. ment of 19 millions without meaning to change the Constitution of England ; and whenever Engliand . should take her rank among the great military p o w ers o f the world, from that moment •she would coßse to be a free country. " Whenever," con cluded he, i‘ you determine on such a policy, I for olio shall cease my labours in this House ;• yon may keep up Cie farms of debate, but their irtiluence in the world will be gone I'm. ever." I. ird LI VERPOOL had no idea of following the ' Noble Lord (Grenville) through the detail of his speech ; but there .were come points on which he must be permitted to say a' few words. Ile totally re butted the charge thet Ministers shrunk from any en quiry on the subject now stated to the House. If he had one nnxiety stranger than another, it was that the time should arrive when a full and clear exemine e l thin might be entered into without injury to the public sem:tee: but with respect to the subsidiary system which had called forth so much observation, lie should remark that an inaccurate conception hail been enterteintel by that Noble Lord. It was not the fact, that the subsidies were at all hazards to continue a year. The original engneement was, that they should continue a year, provided the war did ' not lei-milt:oe before that year close 1. When the Detiliitive 'freely tool; place, it became the immedi ate object of Nliels!ris to set that mite.' of •terniinae tion on a plain footing; but as thete reielit be still room fur ceiil and doubt as to MO autivil period of the wares ceasing, it was thought best, so far as ire (Lord Liverpool) could sey from a document which lie had then before him, to fix the period so as to iii chide :he reasonable time when the allied armieti might ieeeli their own territory, so ns to allow for Aushia, Prussia, and Spain I urn mouths, .and for Portugal and Iliicsia flier. On the subject of the force retained on the Coutitient, he should express his full belief that its presence there hell been of the greatest service, and had saved serious dif ficulties.—[Hein., hear, heart] —As to -what had been said on the subject of the peace establishment, he must di'cline to make observations on papers laid heroic ally otle r assembly ; but lie must say, that %lieu the time came for •that enquire, be felt con- Mont in the result. Let those who eerier , of the probable eitcrease of exeemliture, recollect the change of situation of England >ittce the last reduction. Let them recollect the :11M:faunal colonies, the encrease of pay to ull.depattineies of service, the etre- n e sse ' o f ' half-pay, the ',ensiling to retired otliceis and soldiers, enereasemetits to an ainn'elit•whicla could hest scarce ly been conceit eiL—sorne of them due to the Noble Lord (Grenville), and which tnight be easily thought not too ei.ely yielded, and come dictated by obi 'mu.; justice and strong etlpssity... The policy of Mr. Pitt • had been talked of, but lie believed' it to be tile 'feel ing of that great man I.'.aisr.:f, that in his cylmates of 4792, reduction had gone too low. It was { able, too, that as to this reduction, the first scale ilways the highest, it lowered gradually ; but policy of a century had found a permanent force cessary. tie, however, admitted, that while ti was nothing so %ague as the idea that a military ,vernment was to be establi , hed in this countiy, it important that the !louse should have the formation with respect to whateier artangem etii were likely to take place. The Marquis df TANDSnowNr rose, m°t _because, on a subject.of such inteiest, he could suppress his ; wish to have bisotentimesig us dp r , t , He felt the perrectnecessity while he w , admit, that it could not be expected that much (II would be given 1t the preterit Stage: . liloo f .vp, was glad to take op the 'pledge at the Noble 1, (Liverpool), that no Measure tending is chars;, character of the country,:as it.raust be done by a military establishment, would be entered into, w out laying the felted information beide The motion was then carried. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMMONS. Severn' Petitions were presented. praying for the town. newel of the Property Tax ; and others,froas the IIC(11 ier laid in doff-rent districts of the United 'Kingdom in htvos t Rowe alteration in the Co►n Laws. STATE OF THE STREETS EN TUE SIETROPOLK Mr. M. A. TAYLOR rose to call the attention' s ( the House to a 'public grievance, which in his opinin g required both immediate remedy and future prem. tion. The only question, he apprehended, w ou ld be as to the nature of that remedy ; , for . the evil ,o( which he complained was indjaputable and %miter. sally felt, vet Without the interference of Perlis. would probably remain unredressed. Ilewished I submit the linage the necessity that -existed of pre. serving the pay_emenis .of ual metropolis in such state as %limpid not . endauger the• safety of his Nes. ty's subjects. Many accidents had already occurred in consequence of the mecm's' in which they were at present broken up; and not long since s roachc had been'thrown b ox, and killed on the spot. ''lle had k r ,„ course of his enqoi. ries into the cause of this shameful disorder anti neg. ligence, that it wig an evil which it was iinptiiiible to prevent. This impossibility, however, he was deter. mined to try, and would persevere at the risk of giv. ing. offenCe to the parish officers, and estn though the Water CompanieteshoOld put Trim in their , 'reser, voirs, or Alte Gas-light Company into their furnaces. The City of London, he knew, was exempted by charter.: but he trusted that when they law a proper system of inspection and controul estabiishedittWest roinster, they would think it worth theirattention tn imitate the example. With respect to the law as it already stoed, there was no distinction between streets and highways, the former being so denominated onle from their ruunifig through ittliabited and populous places. They were indictable at Quarterlessioat, and it was the duty of the magistrates to asse s a suf. ficient rote, and direct the parochiaroit;rafters t • ,11- stitute the proper repairs. The law, then, was en tirely with him; but it was too dilatory in its appli cation, and required the quickening enelgy of parlia. went to give it its due and salutary effect. The law guaranteed every Ingo's title to the terra firma, and on him who obstructed or undermined it imposed the obligation of fully and completely repairing the mit; chterf - he had occasioned. The streeti• of-Paris were not subject to this inconvenience; and those of Edin. burgh, and from that to Leith,. were egually sale and beautiful, forming ao inclined plaue, and ena bling carriages to proceed - with equal sonvenkinceand velocity. What hollow proposed was, tolifinginl bill enabling.thecrownto appoint a board of Cornelis? %loners, and to' divide the metropolis into four or iva districts. These commissioners were to act grit ultously, and to be comp.osed of gentlemest resilient in the pa di cider district over which they presided, and to possint, as a qualification, 3001. a year, or 10,0001. in money: They were to be collet:lino to publish' proper adves tisements, and to appoint au inspector for eachdig: trict, whose salaries with 'those of a few cltrkst would constitute the whole•expence.of his mertsure. The salary of the Inspector ought to he, •be con ceived, not less than 5001. per annual, as he should be a person of uncorrupt character, a:td remectlile by the commissioners. It was his inientiort o jf the House gave him leave to bring in the Bill. fatter to propose, that the Bill should become operative - three months after its passing into a law.. It was a.rnea sure which could inflict no jiardahip nn . t.h.e , parishes, whose duty it was already iu laW to prevent:ail- nui sances in the public streets. 'He shookd alio intro duce a compulsory clause on the Wkter Cionisetties, restraining -them from taking op Any paventren at their own pleasure, or from hying down any oti.n than iron pipes in future, as- well as I o ihrir right of breaking up a street to a particelar period of the year. It was obviidis that it was an evil chiefly experienced - in the winter seasen.• 1 1 '7 spector must be armed with the poiver of buying fines, either on the parish, or the authors of the mischief, and in proportion to the- extritt-ef the - e'l, sehject to the rerision of the Contonissieners. . b e should also propose that these provisions might equal ly extend to the Gas Light Companies, and the Commissioners of Sewers, utol.tlint they should all be inter:li:ted front lay icy down wooden pipes in fit. tore. Ile did not wish (i) inter fere with the •ival ship of different Companies; no man was a greater enemy to monopoly than hitnsisif ; his only o:trect was to secure to the public what tnev had a right to possess.—a good, safe, and commodious carrimee. road. The fact was; the pavements, after beirte so opened, were not laid down *vain sometimes- for months, and without some quiek and compulsory ',tonsure, he was convinced the evil ..vovld continue to exit. Ile was sorry he could not compliment the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exrhequer, whom lie then saw in his place, on the condition of the streets near the Treasury. From thence to Scot landlord their state was disgraceful as well as die. gerous. Ott enquiring at the Treasury nit this soh.. ject, he had betin told that the cause was, there w,.s tin money there—[d laugh)- 7 -bat he trusted tLe liieht Hole. Gentleman would not suppett alt assertion. Ile should now move for leave In in a Bill for the purposes he had . could assure the House that nothing would 4iv , ' 141 ' 1 greater satisfaction than the Li:r.ductip, --. 0 measure better calculated flop that of v.:clft h t;: .l °boo n , gale w ai but the Drce le there 3 ry G t , y, it we j ittpst gemeote morel ! null o e ! r errt,, N t e woeid ch (too,: PIIPt. h e f,, r d a ~,e 3 Y a vast ooh, e Home, he itiwth co fuvuet ) I 'ol.la. Potion o( opining precoto. I, Would e evil t ot d colter. Idiom* *kited to I of pre„ ouch o M ejes: occurred Were at •orichmart mi •1. I