The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-04-11 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN. the Hon. Gent., although inasmuch se it was garbled, fairly than they did the world. • There had now been brought bbfore the public; he meant the sum of and was a translation of a translation, it was neces- an attack and a counter-attack between him and the 200,0001 lent to the King of France on his return airily imperfect, yet be had no hesitation in saying Noble Lord. The Noble Lord might do as he to that country. The total amount of bills drawn that the general reasoning which it contained pro- pleased; for himself he should pursue undeviating- in 1813, as he had already stated, amounted to ceedcd from him and that notwithstanding the Hem ly, the course which he had hitherto prescribed to t 17,600,0001.; but this sum must be reduced by the Gent.'s remarks, he was perfectle prepared to de- himself . amount of the sums advanced for other na v al and fend the soendness of the princit le of that part of it ' Lord CASTLEREAGH still maintained that no military objects besides the Army Extraordinarie, which related to Saxony. With respect to the nature public transaction of an important nature ought to being 2,300,0001. leaving 15,300,0001. Of this suui of the returns which had been made to the Address be partially discussed on imperfect documents. His of 15,300,0001. that part applied in subsidiary pay ee' the House, unquestionably they did not extend return to England afforded no justification whatever ments amounted to 3,000,0001. leeviug.l2,3oo,oool. to subjects which subsequent negociations must de-' for a departure from the ordinary coarse with re. for Army Extraordinaries. In 1814, the bale drawn tea mine. Ile had before apologized to the Home few spect to communications on public affairs. The Con. , amounted to 15,990,0001. The difference, after having been led by the Hon. Gentes breach of the gress which he had recently attended was not the first I deducting the sums applicable for other purposes rules which ought to be observed on these occasions, that had assembled in Europe. It had happened in ; than Army Extraordinaries, amounted to 12,990,0001. to commit a breach of them himself, by communi- former meetings of the same nature, thatour Nego- , exceeding the amount of the former by only 600,0001. eating to Parliament information on the point of Ge- ciator had frequently been changed. Under such:The Right Honourable Gentleman then went into noa, before the arrangements which had been dis- I circumstances would it have been tolerated that every several other heads, but was so inaudible in the gal cussed were actually carried into effect. But the; individual Negociator so returning, should be com- lery, that we found it utterly impossible to form any lion. Gent. had taken advantage of garbed docu. I pelted to state to Parliament the progress of trans. thing like a distinct notion of what he said. He meows to throw on the Government of this country, actions not brought to a close? There could be no I wished to explain why one head of expenditure was and oti all the Sovereigns of Europe, so mnch un- pretetice for such a thing. lie was perfectly aware so large, namely, the excess of the grant to the founded calumny, that lie (Lord Castlereagh) was filet nothing he could say would have any effect on Commissary in Chief. The sum voted was 3,000,0001. actually driven out of the ordinary path of Nile. the Hon. Gentleman, but he was sore the House of The sum estimated was 3,400,0001. It appeared nientery proceeding, for the purpose of defending Commons would feel (lie value of these observations. ! I that the excess exceeded, the sum of the vote being the good faith of ail the parties concerned. Ile To the Hon. Gentleman it was, no doubt, easier to 3,200,0001., which was about 200,0001. short of the trusted, however, that the abuse of the general rule i calumniate his Majesty's Ministers, and the Allies of estimate, but 200,0001. above the sum voted by Par would not henceforward he considered as the role it.l the country, on imperfect documents than on full in- Bement. Very large sums were issued by the Corn. self ; and that the Hon. Gent. would not suppose that formation, for experience had shown that when he missary in Chief for the purchase of stores of various because he had induced him (Lord Castlereagh) to proceeded on the latter no one had been less fedi). kinds, which occasioned this apparent excess ; but pe vert the course in one instance, that he would do ; nate than the Hon. Gentleman in establishing the although the expence of the Commissa • y-General se in another. He had laid before the House the in. • charges which he had thought proper to addtme bad thus. been increased, the general expences of the formation respecting Genoa, simply to protect the against public men. He was sure, therefore, that he country had not been thereby increased; for if these interests of the country from the injury which the I should make no impression on the mind of the Hon. purchases had not appeared in this, they must have Hon. Gent, was doing to them by his accusations ; I Gentleman, And he abandoned the hope of preserving appeared in some other head of the p ublic expendi but he was riot therefore to be tempted to go inch. the confidence which it was now evident had been tore. By the exertions of the Commissary-General dentally and collaterally into other questions not yet given to him by the Hon. Gentleman, only because , the public service had not only been supported in a state of determination. : be felt that at the moment when it was given he with regard to the amount of specie which he found Mr. WHITBREAD defended himself from the ' (Lord C.) was unassailable. Having thus given his I means of procuring, but a great saving had been charge of perverting the rules of Parliament, in or- l confidence, the Hon. Gentleman turned round, and I effected in the mode resorted to by him, com der to throw calumnies on the different Govern- ! made his previous candour the ground for a mere vi. pared to any other mode by which the money ments of Europe. What he had complained of in I relent assault. Without meaning any personal dis- could have been raised. The sum raised for the the present instance, was the inadequacy of the re- respect to the Hon. Gentleman, or any thing unpar- various services of the army by the Commissary turn which had been made to the Address of the : liamentary, he would say, that contemplating the General exceeded three millions, besides part of House, and in support of that complaint he had i mode in which the Hon. Gentleman had lately the subsidies, which had also been issued by him.— stated that it was impossible for him to suppose that . thought proper to attack him and the other Members When the House recollected that the late war in the no annexations had taken place save that of Genoa, of his Majesty's Government, he must be content to ; Peninsula was attended with very heavy expences, which latter the Noble Lord had confessed in the pa- ! sacrifice the confidence which the Hon. Gentleman which could hardly occur again in any other service pees that Om it seemed against his will) he had laid had reposed in him, anti to he guided solely by his from the difficulty of procuring supplies, the want on the table of time House. As to Saxony, he should sense of public duty. He was perfectly prepared to of roads for carriages, and the manlier in which the be satisfied if he could hope that the Noble Lord defend his own conduct, and that of the other Meet. :.whole of the baggage had to be conveyed, the House would, at some time, give them information which hers of the Congress, in a parliamentary and legiti. ! would not wonder at the amount of this expence.— should let them peep behind the scenes, and see mate manner ; but not by deviating into that course ; The great Commander at the head of our armies in what all the Noble Plenipotentiaries (the Noble which the Hon. Gentleman, with a due regard to his the Peninsula, bad found means of doing that which Lord among the rest) had really been doing. The own honour, ought to quit, and not to continue to was always before considered impossible. It bad Noble Lord had talked against throwing suspicions lower the character of his country by unfounded and formerly been said, that if the army was large in on the conduct of the. Allied Powers. Why, what . dangerous representations, which, circulating in Eu. that country, it could not be supported, and if small was the Noble Lord himself about, when in the let- rope, were most prejudicial to that moral influence ;it would be beaten. But that great man had found ter which bad that day been published, and which in which the power of Great Britain on the Conti- means of solving this problem, and had supported a be had acknowledged to be his, he spoke of 44 the nent so essentially resided. I larger army in that country, than had ever before alarming and dangerous pretensions of Russia!" At Mr. WHITBREAD would make no farther reply : been considered possible. They were now winding the same time, however, the Noble Lord, it ap. to the Noble Lord than to say, that in giving up the •up the great expenditure of that army. The whole peered by that letter, thought it perfectly consistent confidence which the Noble Lord said that he (Mr. i had not been paid last year, and part was still in' a with political morality to give up the whole of Saxony W.) reposed in him, the Noble Lord had given up ; comae of payment. A question had been put to to Prussia. [fermi Castlereagh—" Quite the re- that which he never possessed. Once more revert. him by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) what verse."). --Really it was impossible, writing or ing to the subject in which the conversation which f was the amount of Army Extraordinaries, paid since opeaking, distinctly to understand the Noble had just taken place had originated, he observed, the close of 1814 ? lie should endeavour to answer Lord's meaning. If the Noble Lord were per- that the Address requested 44 an account of the pro- ! this question as wee a., he could. The 'amount of vaitted to hold information from the House on these gress made by the Congress at Vienna." Of this Extraordinaries during the three months from the important subjects, in what situation did they stand? progress no Tomei had been made. Why not ? I clear of 1811, after deducting those sums which be -The Noble Lord was absent from the country on Lord CASTLEREAGH asked how it was pos. I longed to the ordinary expences of the Army and confidence. Ile had no instructions. He was to be Bible to make any circumstantial return on the Bills of Credit, amounted to 2,200,0001. The governed by his own discretion. He was omnipo. subject ? ! whole amount of bills drawn, including subsidies to tent. 46 He would not allow the machine to stand Mr. WHITBREAD.—" Why then did the Noble our Allies, amounted to 4,200,0001. This sum of still while waiting for an impulse from his own Go- Lord second my motion for the Address ?" 2,200,0001. of Army Extraordinaries included ye vertiment." Let the House look at the letter of Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that by the rious sums paid towards winding up the expences of that day, and see how the Noble Lord expressed ; words of the Address the discretion of' the Crown the Peninsula; and he understood that the rate at himself. 66 I attach importance to such and such a iwas to be exercised . on the information to be coup which payments on that account had lately been principle ;" " I conceive the King of Saxony to have ; municated. I made was one million of dollars peremonth, and that placed himself by his acts in a situation to be fairly I On the motion of Mr. WHITBREAD, the Clerk if this payment should be continued, the whole ex sacrificed to the tranquillity of Europe;" " [shall not • read the Address from the Journals. I pence of the Peninsula would be wound up in the regret making all exaniple of one of theGermanStates;" Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that all the inform. course of' six months. The Right Honourable Gen. 66 I can have to hesitation to the principle of the pro-' ation had been given which could diplomatically and tleman concluded with moving the sum of 3,992,0001. poled arrangement ;" " I have no objection to confide . constitutionally be afferded. I towards defraying the Army Extraordinaries from Saxony to the provisional administration of his Prus. ' Mr. WIIIIBit EA D begged the Noble Lord the 21th Dec. 1813, to the 21th Dec. 1814, not pro sier' Majesty," &c. &c. and yet, after all this as- , would dissever the two terms, for they had nothing vided for by Parliament. sumption, and after the lapse of many months, the to do with one another. Mr. TIERNEY asked if the sum of 21 millions Noble Lord returns re inficia, as far as regarded! And here the conversation dropped. included all the Army Extraordinaries, and if they that House, having no communication to make to it. I SICILY. were to understand that there was to be no farther Ile waits until a Member of 'Parliament, having in • Lord CASTLEREAGH, adverting to the notice claim for Army Extraordinaries beyond this 21 vain interrogated him, embodies his questions in a which had been that evening given by a Right Hon. millions ? motion, to which motion he accedes, and Ile then Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ponsonby) observed that The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, complains of perverting the ordinary course of Par- he should have no difficulty in acceding to it as far he presumed that three millions of the present year liamentary proceeding. The Noble Lord, he pre. it regarded Genoa, but with respect to Sicily the ; might belong to the expenditure of formeryears. bunted, would have Perliament do nothing hut vote question became so extensive that it would require Mr. TIERNEY said, it would be necessary then money. lie expected a continuance of the confi- consideration and selection. !to add to the 21 millions this other sum of' three d euc e of the public after the letter which had that Mr. PON `SONBY replied, that the transactions ' millions. He wished to know the amount of' this day appeared, which it seemed was a translation of a in Sicily were so interwoven with those which re- : description of debt incurred previous to December, translation. Ile should like to know in what la,n. spected Genoa, that It was scarcely possible to se- i 1814, not yet paid. Was the monthly sum of one guage it was originally composed. [Lord Castle. parate them. i million of dollars included in this sum of three mil reegh In English:;] To English ! Ile thought After some further consideration it appeared to be , lions ? He was only anxious to know what would the Noble Lord must himself have been, the tratisla. understood that Mr. Ponsonby would furntsh Lord be the total amount of the eluding up the war.— tor, for really it was very like his style—it might be Castlereagh with a private communication as to the I The one million of dollars was only for the war in put by theside of theCicooesecOnimunications.TheNo. extent to which he should require to know the ni- the Peninsula. Had the Right lion. Lientlemati yet ble Lord declared that he would not be diverted from tire of Lord William Bentitick's instructions me- obtained any estimate of the eepence of the war in lei course, neither would, be, Mr. W.) be diverted specting Sicily, iu order that the Noble Lord might' America? from his course. M the . Ntatle Lord would use the determine on the propriety of acceding to, or op- 'flue CHANCELLOR or the EXCHEQUER. _ _ privileges of the (louse for defence, so he (Mr. W.) posing its productlon. would use them for offence against those who ap- DECLARATION OF TRr ALLIED Pow eite. peared to him to misconduct themselves in public si- F Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH gave notice that to tuations ; and this the more especially when a mo- morrow (Tuesday) se'rinight, he would submit a mo tion was about to be made for the Speaker's leaving tion to the House relative to the late Declaration of the Chair, for the purpose 'of enabling ttte House, in the Allied Powers. a Committee of Supply, to vote 40,000,0001. of ; COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS. Army Extraordinaries, iucluding large sums to Fo- In the Committee of Ways and Means a Resolo reign Powers. It was no abuse of the privileges of tion was agreed to, to raise the sum of 2,32d,0001. Parliament to enquire into public affairs. The No- Irish currency, in Exchequer Bills, for the service blc Lord said, " wait till the papers are before the of Ireland.—The Report to-morrow. House." Did he mean to give them ? It happened COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. tut tunately enough that the veil which the Noble The Estimates of the Army Extreordinaries, &c. Lord was enzious to keep over certain transactions, having been referred to the Committee of Supply, was sonic how or other removed. This was instanced the House resolved itself into the said Committee. in the publication of the letter of that day. Atwater ; The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in celebrated iti , tance was the publication, by the a tone of voice which rendered it impossible to follow American Government, of the Ne. , ociations which hint with any accuracy, entered into a detailed state. were at that time pending with Great Britain, to meat of the Army Extreordinaries of the present which publication was probably owing the termina- year, and a comparison of them with those of the tion of the war with the United States. There three preceding years. Ile described the amount would, indeed, he little controul over the exercise and the nature of the bills which had been drawn by of the power of congregated Monarchs, were it not the Commissary-General, and showed, that although for the voice of public opinion; and highly, there- their sum appeared large, the Extreordinaries of the fore, to be desired were all communications by present year did not exceed those of the three pre. which the pu'slic were informed with respect to the ceding years by more than 600,0001. They had all proceedings of Governments. The Noble Lord, and grown out of proceedings already made known to Prince Talleyrand, and Prince Hardenberg, and the Parliament, with the exception of one, which, under ltlier Princes seemed to treat each other much more more favourable circumstances, would not have been said he had not yet any account of the winding up of the war in America. They had always found means of meeting the demands of the Ameri ca n service by raising t he money as t:ie service required. The monthly payment of one mil;;on of dollars formed the largest part of the sum of three millions to which he had alluded. Mr. TIPIN EY said all discussion on this sub.iect was only a waste of time. The total sum now voted by the Ifoo,e was 21 millions, and of 17 millions of this the Tteasury already possessed the money. It was useless to discuss a matter of this kind when Government had obtained nll they wanted. The enormous scale .of the expenditure in the Peninsula required the investigation of a Committee up stairs. Such a Committee could alone do justice to this sub. ject, and see that punishment should fall where it was due; for he believed in his conscience that great peculation had been going en in the Commissariat Department. It was in rain, however, to eula'g upon these snljects, as he saw no encouragement in the present temper of the House. He had no inten tion of preventing Gentlemen from employing their time in a more agreeable manner. It was useless to be talking of a few hundreds to this or that indivi dual, when - 17 millions were in this way voted with out enquiry. Mr. ALEXANDER BARING thought the ex penditure of the Peninsula ought to be made the subject of enquiry. He did not mean to cast the slightest suspicion on the Government, but n it d w i a: impossible for any lumber to understand the ac. counts before Cite !louse; all they c ou ld make out would he that so many millions were drawi by ferent intik iduals. If a Committee were appointed, ;;;2y would see that the manner in which our Comm i s. sarint srstein had been carried on in Spain was the most absurd Commissariat system on which any coati. try had ever carried on liar. The Immense expernli. tore in the Peninsula called loudly for enquiry. The persons who furnished the means of, transport to oar army were chiefly of the lowest classes of the peo. ple in Spain; and they ought to have dealt e ith such a description of persons in a way which would have been intelligible to them. But instead of this, the mules and services were paid to them by bits of pap er or draughts of the Deputy• Commissary on the Com. missary-General in Lisbon. Whets an ignorant man in the mountains got one of these pieces of paper, from being used to the paper of 'his own Government, he attached but little value to it, and it .was generally purchased by persons In the suite of the Gommissa. riat at an enormous discount. Ile could bring per. sons before the Comm.ttee who had made 50 and 60 per cent. in buying thk paper, and who had not even had it at first hand; and at every intermediate stage a great profi' must have been made on the same pap er . If the London dealer got 50 per cent. profit, the sum actually received by the Spanish muleteers must not have been one-fourth part of the sum paid by Government. This was not a system of a day, but a system of several yews. He would be answered that there was a difficulty in getting specie; but in the first place he would observe, that there was no plait of getting specie, which could be compared with the discount on the bills to these poor people who only got ono:fourth of them. Paper in Europe seldom went beyond 25 or 30 per cent. discount ; but here was a discount of 75 per cent. This mode of paying, in what might be com.. paratively termed a savage country, created the very difficulty which was felt; for it forced Government to spend twenty millions where only five qiillioni was wanted ; it created the very scarcity ; end Go. vernment were obliged to pay for it at last. All this originated in a completely false eystem of Commis sariat. But the deception to the poor people did riot stop there. Bills were given on the• Commissary at Lisbon, and the people had no means of knowing good from bad bills. At this day bills at Lisbon could be bought at 20 per cent. discount. What possible benefit could be derived from thus having a mass of floating paper which must at last be paid off at par. The consequence of all this had been the grossest peculation. A person by getting the ear of the Commissariat, knew what bills were likely to be first paid. One gentleman at a house at Lisbon had made an enormous fortune, and many persons hail enriched themselves by the sanie means. Government must pay for all the discredit attached to this paper. He hoped, that now that we were on the point of entering on a new war, this system would be en quired into; an he hoped that the suggestion of his Hight Honourable Friend (Mr. Tierney) for the a?. pointment of a Committee up stairs would be agreed to. — The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, did not think that a Committee could be productive of such advantage as a Committee on the spot, armed with power to examine on oath. He did not deny the facts stated by the Hon. Gentleman, but they had '.qt come to his knowledge. Those Gentlemen of the Committee in the Peninsula having for years been exclusively employed in this work, mast prosecute the investigation with greater advantage than Go. tlemen who had other avocations could be supposed to do; and upon the whole, therefore, he thought that it would be better that the substance of this in. vestigation, when completed, should be laid before Parliament. He wished that any Gentleman pos sessed of information with respect to any peculation would furnish it to those Commissioners who would avail themselves of it. Mr. BARING said, it Was not the peculation of individuals, but the system pursued under the sanc tion of Government, of which he complained. A person who remitted money to Lisbon, might pur chase Commissariat Paper to-morrow if he chose. Ile knew that the lower classes of the Commissariat had had persons following them, buying up the pa per as it was issued, but this must be the conse quence of the system. It was not the peculation bat the system on which the Commissariat Wl3 going on, and the sanction given to that system by Govern ment, which required investigation. Ail that the Committee in the Peninsula could do was to examine the vouchers of the different items of expeaditore. He believed that none of the Accounts of the Petite sula had yet been audited. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that the circumstances which deprived es of the wual means of riegociation in the. warfare in the Peninsula, could never be expected to Eat Win. It was not his wish to disguise the deprecia tion of paper in the Peninsula; but it vvas found ah• solutely impossible to make every payment at the time in ready money. Mr. BENNET lamented that it appeared from the statement of the Chaucellor of the Exchequer, that the nation was so near to the end of its resource" It believed the House, therefore, to examine the more minutely We the accounts that were laid before it. The charges for the Army Extraordinaries welt enormous, and the public money seemed to have bem squacdered without any consideration of the pocket of those from w horn it was drained. He wished lot explanation upon many of the items, particular!! upon that which regarded Lord Aberdeen, sr° whose name WB3 placed the large sum of 25,0001. Por the service of Spain still larger amounts welt charged, a part of which had no doubt been sppte' printed to that expedition which she had sent oo 1 0 her devoted colonies, which the Hon. Merlin hoped would never reach its destination. 'lke troy! at home, on the enetrary, remained unpaid, vriti the exception of the Carps of Gen. Whittinglin e. which had placed the Usurper Ferdinand upon °' Throne at Madrid.—L Ikar, hem'!] --Ile rec"', l : l mended that AlinisSers should narrowly wat ch ' ( , communications between the inhabitants o f Spain and-'Bonaparte. The llon. Member requtrel explanation from Ministers regarding the sum t: 10,0001. paid to Lord Wm. Bentinch, who had he: . employed egeind the Wog of Naples, m _.~ ..a I