The Statesman. — London, England, 1814-11-22 00:00:00

W.. 19P !!‘ , 1% , ... °.. ~~~ r . THE STATFSMAN: the probable fate of mvst of the smaller States of b ..,., .... Treaty . Eor pe„ and . p old intilipale Atei„Tertvent..*n. . a i ws f:' tr . tto a between iitrtiiiallt a .he d not cones[ that4l stern we q sty, iv lisfii-iatl#olo t : alrilte gritk : n re pi t sr •it - newers to nt Aueit tt tunic Power a fogies *it d i s content s %OEN he's* qernalti l qgn ° les Mgellii ti. mi g ht p u ; . 1 " 11114.° " "°". rushes[ to I'lam/id, Venireko Airstiia, .foigitim •ko eaetts(,3*copklets o ., wyitteu audNeobllsbed by no one, 'Holland, Saxony to Pruisia,..and 'Poland to Russia.: knew whom.. Cfpon all these topics, explanations were yet to be I Mr. I'IERNEY expressed his astonishment, that Islet' Titti news - fore 'Amertei WM' nettiriaty . the Congress, which was issemblid for the declared at ,PorPoses'of Mee . I incline the ;louse to ask, were. the, negotclatione peace, should be perve ea rt— to the end of Ghent still proceeding ?—[Dear, hear!]—Lmetin. „ partitioning and disposing of the territories of parti choly it was to reflect, that it now appeared on the'! cular Powers for the aggrandisement of others aim : dy deemed to be powerful enough at least, if not too authority of Ministers themselves, that at tho.coos. mencement of the contest, a large proportion of the much so. Ile wished to rescue England from the American population were decidedly with us ; but disgrace which attached to this note of Prince Rep ' that we had so fought and sn negociated, that party sin, gild was sorry to fled the House willing to be had become extinct in the United *Ws, and that treated In the disrespectful manner which Miniiters but one common mind existed far directing•the whole had adopted in refusing to answer questions consti. force of 'the Republic against this count ry—[lieer, ! tutionally put to them. hear!] -Upon all these points, ho desired to be' Mr. BATHURST- said, if the• Right linnourable 'better informed before he .gave his vote - for going , Gentleman brought forward any motion, Ministers into the Committee. . : might then be able to answer him, because lie must . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. state a • specific question on some point that was said, he did not think himself at liberty to give an known : at present the questions were all so loose answer to many of the questions put by the Hon. : and vague, and, on points with which they could not Gentleman ; but to such of them es he deemed an be supposed to be as yet informed, it was impossible answer fitting, he would be extremely'ready to corn- to answer them. lie could assure the House that municate every degree of information to the House Ministers were inclined to give every information in that it was in his power to do. It gave him great , their power. Satisfaction to say, that the conferences at Ghent ; Mr. WHITBREAD believed that he had read to were not broken off. With respect to the engage. the House the actual words of Lord W. Bentinck's meta with the King of Naples, it had been already letter to the Neapolitan Government. The Right answered more than once. As to the article men. Hon. Gentleman knew perfectly whether he had, or tinned by the Honourable Gentleman relative to the ; bad not. If Ministers had received no intelligence note of Prince Repiiiii„ he could answer nothing : ,respecting Saxony, they might well accuse Lnrd lie had received no information on the subject.H Castlereagh of not having a very high opinion of his There was nee treaty he could mention that had not . colleagues, when he kept them in complete darkness been yet laid before the [louse, and that was with las to all his actions and designs. The delivering up Spain.; bet it wns merrly a Treaty of Amity. Ina of the devoted .Saxens was an act of the most horrible regard to America, he did ndt.think it necessary to . injustice. AU men shuddered at the deed. The act say any thing tit present. - 1 was done, and whether it could be revoked or net, Mr. IVIIITIIREAD said, then he supposed he 1 the disgrace was incurred. The fate of Poland and was to take it for granted that the English Govern.' of G e noa equ ally fixed. ment was ment approved of the treaty between AUstria and! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Naples—by 'whieli the crown of 'Naples was to be : protested against the mode of attack adopted by the wrested from our good ally, the King of the two , Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, this evening, by Sicilies, and to be placed on the sovereign brow of . bringing forward a host of question% on the proceed- King Joachim Murat. . I ' ! ings of Congress, of which that House could not • judge at the present mom fairly moment, and for which Mr. PONSON BY said, he had in • his 'hand a they had no authority but rumours and anonymous paper which had been given to him just us he was ! entering the House, which purported to he en addl., pamphlets. ' Sir C . MONCK complained of the manner in tional article with respect to the treaty with Russia. I Sir It was very extraordinary, that this article, which, which the lonian Islands had been given up to was dated the Ist - of March, 1814, stipulated on the Austria. part of this country that the Russian fleet should be Mr. STEPHEN said,' as this question related to psis[ for at a certain rate p Hon. Gentlemen, on the other side, should ground er month, and though the p olic y of Euro p e, he was sur p rised that the Parliament had sat afterwards till the latter end of July, not the smallest communication of this article their statements and arguments on anonymous . There was a constitutional way of ob hail been made to Parliament by his Majesty's Mi- p a 'I mphlets. . . nisters—a proceeding which he thought flighty disre- , information, taming by coming forward, and moving the Crown, for the copies of an do. spectful and contrary to the usage of Parliament. lan Address to . y currents which they might deem it necessary to be The Cil ANC ELLOR .of the EXC II EQUER laid before the !louse. He could not avi id thinking, it I answered, that he did not exactly know any partici'. : would be a practice very inconvenient for the House, L lar reason why that article bad not been laid on the to have questions of this sort daily put to Mi n isters. Liable; but lie supposed it must be owing to some de.; Some Gentlemen seemed to expect from the courtesy i lay in the ratificatine. and good nature o f t h e Ministers, that they could Mr. PON'SON BY said, the Russian fleet had been , get information from them, which, if they were to sent here, as a mark of the great confidence which • give, those Gentlemen would consider them guilty of the Emperor of Russia placed in the Government of great weakness. It was too much to think, that every this country ; and came, as it were, to a place of ' statement in a pamphlet or newspaper was sufficient refuge against ally success w hick might have attended • ground to call upon Ministers to divulge the most the arms of France in her tremendous attack • Inv** important information. . that country. Ile had never understood that Eng- E. Mr. HORNER thought that nothing could show land had asked for any Russian fleet to come hither ,more clearly the change that had lately taken place as an assistant to enable us to carry on the war in l in the practice of parliamentary proceedings, than to I which we were engaged; and, therefore, he could . find a Gentleman of the experience and ability of the ! see no reason why we should be called on to pay for Honourable Member who spoke last condemn the a fleet which was sent here to inspire us with con- p ra cti c e of seeking information of Ministers. What ARMY ESTIMATES. 1 fideoce that the Russian Government was determined bad become of the functions of that House, if, when Lord PALM EIi.STON moved, that the House re- ' at all events to prosecute the contest with the utmost 1 Ministers demanded a large supply of money, Gent le solve itself into a Committee to take into considera- . vigour. . ! mereshotild he told that it was irregular to-ask for lion the estimates for the army service. 1 Mr. B. BATHURST said, the substance of .the ; w h a t p ur p ose it was wan t e d ? If, indeed., there were Mr. WHII•BILEAD could not consent to the : addiiional article alluded to by'the Right Hon. Gen- any irregularity in this practice, it proceeded from Speaker's leaving the Chair until the House should tlemaii had been stated to the House in the course of the much greater irregularity that had lately been receive some information that might enable them to ! last Session, though the article itself had not (for . introduced on the other side of the House, in pro what reason he could not account) been laid on the p os i ng l arge gran ts o f mone y, and great armies to be judge what the amount of force was which the poll- tical situation of the country required. On a for- table. ! kept up in time of peace, without condescending to mar night he had complained that this was withheld • e' Mr. PON.. ONBY said he had no recollection of inform the Houser for what purposes they were want.- with respect to America, and he now thought it ne• any such substance as that mentioned by the Right ed. The Right Hon. Gentleman desired them to cessary that it should be communicated .as to the state lion. Gentleman having been laid before the House.: wa it w i t h patience till some future day, when those of Europe, unless cogent reasons could be adduced t Ile certainly had heard a great deal of the astonish- 1 subjects might be discussed with more regularity.— why such information should not be given. Ile had lag confidence which the Russian Government had 111 e, however, conceived that the House lied a right before stated, that an honourable engagement, and placed lin that of England, by entrusting its whole , to he informed generally of the state of our foreign the more binding because it was so, had been entered naval force to the safe custody of this country ; but i relations, although they knew that negociatious into by our Ministers with thw person who now fills he had never understood, nor ever head, nor ever i ac t ua ll y p en di ng cou ld no t w i t h propr i ety b e corn the throne of Naples. Of this the Right Hon. entertained the most distant idea, that we were ex-', municated. His Hon. Friends, hoe ever, had not Gent. had 'intimated that he knew nothing. He peered to pay for that so highly extolled confidence asked about any thing that was doing, but about would therefore repeat, that by a written note sign.. which was voluntatily placed in us. I things actually done. They did not ask what crimes ed by Lord Castlereagh, and by Lord W. Beritiuck,l Mr. TIERNEY said he could not but consider i were meditating, but they wished to be lam/eel we had become parties to the Treaty between Joachim that the House was brought to a considerable degree' about crimes actually perpetrated..—Uhar, hear 1 and the Court of Vienna, on the ground that his of shame by the nature of the present proceedings,e They did not enquire about an act of Prince ltepoi n force was wanted•before time could be alloted to the It had always been held that his Majesty's Ministers alone, but they asked whether this act liad not framing of a formal Treaty. Ile (Mr. Whitbread) were boland to give answers to nll constitutional been sanctioned by Lerd Castlereagh, 'acid whether wished to enquire, too, whether a Treaty with Spain questions that were put to them, and such till now this country was not thereby already committed:— had not been entered into, and ratified in August had been the practice. The Right. Honourable Gen- Ile saw no difference, in the principle, between the last, which had never been produced? lie enquired tleinan, however, seemed determined tint to answer annexations that were now making, and the tyranni into this as .another of those circumstances which any questions, at what he deemed a wrong period of cal acts of that Government that we hail been se Jo n g were known to every body except the House of Com- the year. Parliament, when called on to nieet in contending against. The only difference that he could rhos s. lie wished to know likewise, whether a . November, was mere merely to grant money : and see was, that instead of being the work of one great pie.ce, purporti:ig to be a Proclamation from Prince as •to answers to the must important questions, the spoliator, it was the work of many. nisi-lon, R, pill, which haul been published in all the news. i House had no right to expect that they would be Friend (Mr. Whitbread) had been much, misunder papera, calling on the people of Saxony to submit to • given till after the Christmas recess. He was asto.. stood, if it was supposed that he had quoted from the the Prussian Government, ' but which was stated to i niched to hear it avowed, that nothing was known pamphlet as his only authority. Ile hail expressly have been since ter-ailed, and which certainly bore Iby Ministers here respecting the authenticity of the stated, that he hail made enquiries, an d . believed his upon it the statep of authenticity, was or was not a i note issued by Prince Repiiiii. It was generally be- : information correct. As to the proposal of a grant fabrication ) Ife was desirous ,th a t the [' c ase should I lieved by the world at large, that this country had i of money on account of the Russian fleet, it had know whether the honour and character of the! been disgraced lii the signature of Lord Castlereagh . given him the greatest surprise. lie never teem. country had been committed to an act so unjust 1 having been placed to that unjust document ; and yet' lected to have before heard of any ides o f payi ng in itself, so disgraceful in its motives, so rnis.. l lin , at!swer was deigned to b e given on -a p o i n t in' Russia for her fleet ceming to our ports. Ile h a d chievo u s in its exumple.—[Heer,hear til—lf the pro- i winch the honour and justice of this.eountry was so heard a great deal of the compliment that R u ssi a clemittion was authentic, and the st a teme n t o f it s d ee ply conc erned. Against. such a mode of pro. was paying this country by reposing so great a con. recal correct, had the name of the British Minister cee di ng h e c ou ld at present• only protest ; hut he fidence in us : but when we wereatow nsked to pay ever b een affixed to the instrument of this usurpa- hoped that time was not very distant when the •Right 500,0001. on that account, he wished to know w h a t rim)? There were other things recently published Hon. Gent. would be liable to answer for his con. it was for? Was'it on account of the compliment th a t to the world, so derogatory to the high character, duct.. Russia had paid us,, or was it on account of the aid to the illustrious name acquired by the Emperor of Mr. SATITURST said, that at present the con- that our navy received or was to receiie•from them? Russia, that he was anxious to withhold his belief. cerns of Europe were consigned to the Congress, the L IVe had beard many things of late, respecting which It had been represented, that by command of the negociations of which were now going on at Vienna, we must feel ashamed ; and whieh, he.helie.vetl,. hail Emperor, Generals Lecoq and Thielmann had been an d it was impossible to answer questions that were j wrung the hearts of our-navy: but he did not know arrested and imprisoned for presenting a rernon- put according to the whim or ingenuity of the Ho- any thing would be More mortifying than to'say, that ,trance against the seizure of Saxony. It would he nourable Gentleman opposite, on various points in I when Spain had no navy against us, and riunce had recollected that it was under the conduct of these which it could not be expected any fai r j u d gme nt; ver y lit t l e ,. tie British easy wanted the aid of.the same Generals that the event of the battle of Leipsic could he forined, till I the proceedings of that Con.lßussian fleet against that•little. As to the subject was so materially influenced by the accession of the gross were concluded. For his own part, he had n.: of America, the ne ws th a t h a d l ate l y come frOni that .. %.,sson force to the Allied army. He regretted, too, knowledge of any concurrence that had bee n g iven country hail naturally produced the greatest anxiety .11 own part he hod seen and heard nothing to change his opinion of the original impolicy and impropriety of suspending in Ireland a material part of the Bri tish Constitution. He begged therefore to slate, that it was his decided intention to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice in the last Ses sion of Parliament. • Mr. PEELE reminded the Hon. Gentleman that this was a Bill to amend the Peace Preservation Act. With respectto the Insurrection Act, he had, as cor rectly stated s by the Hon. Gentleman, assetted its successful opperation ; and the subsequent .internal tranquillity of Ireland, in his opinion, fully justified that assertion. Ile could not agree, as Repeated to be intimated, that because an Ant Wil4 not put into force, it could, therefore, have hod no operation. — lie had himself said, at. the time of its enactment, that he hoped no occasion would arise that should render it necessary to enforce it. Ile had regretted the state of things, the series of outrages which. had been per. petrated, the tumultuous disposition which had been betrayed, and the necessity which ens thus created of having recourse to measures that no Legislature could adopt without reluctance. The other Bill, it was equally true, had been pat in force in one barony, and in consequence of Resolutions agreed to at a large meeting of County Magistrates. Mr. PONSO NBY enquired when the Bill would be read a third time ? To which Mr. PE EL E replied, on Wednesday neat. The Bill was then read a second time. The Twelve Millions Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Exchequer Bills Aids Bill, were severally committed, . and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow (this day). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER' 'stove(' for a Committee on the 43d of the King, for the purpose of moviog several Resolutions .relative! to the exportation of foreign goods ; which after a 'few words from' Mr. Atkins and Mr. Rose, were agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to morrow. The Promissory Notes and Wool Importation Bills were se►erally read a second time, and to be committed to-morrow. The New Built Ships, the West India Trade, and the East India Goods Bills were likewise each read a third time, and ordered to be committed to morrow. and uneasiness. Ho was, hotiever • happ y that the negociations were still going e n at ., and he hoped sincerely that Ministers had quished all the pretensions that they had s e a respect to the boundaties. As long as the with America touted upon the question' of , ritime rights, Government were certain of port of the House and the Country ; but 1 , ciple of the war was entirely chirtged,l an d now wished to. stoke conquests from Arn,' believed . that the war would not me et we e e k same support from the feelings of the naalow Publics s Mr. .W. POLE thought that it tea, star, when Ministers came down to the H oes ,. f at ,' they had a' right to expect that they would tinned and cross-examined. On the present blvwever, for the House going into a c o , the Army Extraordineries, he did not topics which had been urged were at all releo se e„ As to all the questions 1s hick the Ge n tl eaais other side put to Ministers, shout the pending, gociations, he thought them neither Proper sot r Ministers had their [tends tied behind their' and their tongues tied.—[ A laugh.]—They with propriety, answer airy of the numerous tiOtis put to teem on those sthjecte. • Mr. TIERNEY rose for the purpose of ing the reasons which had induced him to question, and to show how it had a bearii guff:dim' before the House. They were ce_ to go into a Committee oil the Army Extraordiesriss and it appeared, that the country was bound, t the Treaty of Chaumout," to keep up 75,000. Mr. CROK ER spoke to order, as. the Right Honouraele Gentleman was tilling himself to explanation, but making speech. Mr. TIERNEY submitted, that he had to explain the reasons for the question he The SP KER cousidered, that, actor the usual custom, a Member might explai, sage in his speech that was misrepresented, he could not, by way of explanation, reasons of hi• feriner speech. Mr. TI ER N EY having then stated that' it would lather save the time of the House permitted to offer a few observations was, proofed. It Appeared to him, that the objects Congress; at present were to seize. whatever ries they thought proper. If he conceived 75,0(X) 13i itisit troop , were ersceesal to pry good objects of a gositi Congress, I,e won objection to their bele:, so emploeid; bpi large a body of British troops were kept accomplishment of objects that he supposed be moil, or such as could he approved country, he thought lie had a right to make quiries on the subject. He thought that it extraordinary, indeed,. if Lord Castlereak sent over to Ministers that State Paper been published in the Newspapers at Vii had found its way into general circulation I Mr. PONSONBY %sighed. to ask the Ili Gentleman, whether the papers purported been laid before the Congress of Anierict Madison were correct statements of what tr at the negotiation at Ghent ? The CHANCELLOR,. of the EXCH said, that what had passed in August, and passing in November, were very different Although the President of America might per to lay before the Congress the details 01 chit ion that was pending, that was not au exam) for this country tit follow. Mr. PONSONBY replied, that the Preside only done that which by the constitution rica he was bound to do. A great part of t which here tested with the Executive, was the hands of the Congress. As to the State Papers, he supposed • that they were stated to the Congress ; he wished, however, whether the English Suite Papers were cot forth? No reply was made from the Treasury, . The House then resolved ill. If into a Commi Lord. PA LM ERS !'ON moved that 201: for the land-service of his Majesty, be t ee for his Nl,t . jesty from the 25th of Deoetnlgf , to the '24th of Jane, 1815, exclusive of t' employed in the territorial possessions of India Compeny. Mr. TI ERNEY rose to ask, What pro! the number of men demanded were to be tinder the Supplement to the Contention lonia ? lard PALMERSTON apprehended thtt most unusual to state the distribution of the deemed necessai y. for the service of his Melt Mr. TI EItNEY said, it was not his int enquire as to the general clistlibution of but he wished to know what was the pro 'the troops, which were thee demanded o) meta, which it was intended to employ quence of the Convention ? For this, he con he had good grounds, since the Parliament on to voteaoumber of troops, only less b than that which was employed when we we, with the whole world. They already amount of the force to he employed in co of the Convention, viz. 75,000 even ; but to know, if it was not distinctly shown t, Inconvenient to give such information, wha Lion of the 75,000 men were to be inkett oL number now noted, and not to be provided some other time by Parliament ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCEL thought the question put .was equivalent quiry what was the strength of the wrist Netherlands. In such a View the Right 11 lleman (Mr. Tierney) himself should beim the inconvenience of an answer t it. Apc f t he troops to be employed under the Convention would be taken out of the number then demanded, but to enter into (nether details would be improper. Mr. TI ERNEY asked, whether, if instead . of, '200,000 there•had been demanded 275,000 troop', would net hive required some explanation to .ill Stiff it ? The number lir:Wally demanded, thought he could not affirm it, to be excessive, required some o" planation to induce the Committee to vote it. IC° /that 11 ” story could there NA in saying what part of I given force-75,000 men, was to consist of British, uud what of foreign troops? , .• ' • to~happy On it GL. I . eft had tad get ."16 i as th e cont it k o f our sin of the to but if N o pri l h ',and it 11 1 :. m Ana meet 1110, e Bootee kih i leas clear, tbo tise k m , would be riets, Yi • 'esent queety, 6 t CO Mulatt o t i not think ti 011 releseet...; mimeos sia the pending et, sroper nor fair . r llr'e . ,i l lidrh ; isee r Ytr a elo o larc:f lii r .oilt4 d reu i szball"lll:4ll. r s ; ilit to ask * I bearing oath was bound by up a force 4 conceiving ti d we% not leaking tt he had vigit n he hadiska 1, according to :plain any pu. elated, bat that lion, state the that he thnstit Louse to be th ee was allowed N le objects of ihs bitterer termite. conceived that to promo., tie woo d ha ern I; but wbre to ,ept up for the ipposeil not to .oved of b ; tie utake goatees. quo it as? Very lerea l et had not m per w hich had it Vienna, and Ltion here. p ti i m i e l rt e i d ig 'tot lion ,hare ,nierict by Mr. rhat hut pastel %CH glad i* F4tetlit hat sat rent question". ight ti.ink pro. ails of a nervi an example it 3 President had i utiou of As& rt of the pow* p was there I the Am lice were correctly were', to knot e correctly* sury, Bench... Corned tee. 2U 1,000 moo, be maintained ceinbr, 1814, of the troops s of the East t proportion of be employed tion of Chaco cl thnt it wet of the troop Mojesty. is intention to of the force, proportion of led of Park- ; 110 y in cove. he conteudods tent was called se by 56,00 0 re were at wee , ply knew the a consequence but he wished cis that it tea what propor• .eto out of the rovided for at KCEIEQUER lent to an en• arrisons in the lit lion. Gen- be "sensible of A part of tbe rention would • CATtinuc PAPERS. Sir J. C. HIPPIii.EY rose to move for the pro duction of two pa pers,which although ordered last Ses sion, had by some accident not been presented. He re gretted much the impossibility of laying before the 'House a report relative to the Ecclesiastical rights of the King, which was not at present put into an offi cial shape, as well as another important paper—he meant the Bull olthe present Pope reviving the in stitution of the Jesuits. Gross misrepresentation had been circulated on this subject, and the minds-of the people of Ireland kept in a state of the darkest ignorance. Here the lion. Gentleman entered into some critisms on Mr. Plowden's hi.tory of Ireland, in which he laboured to show, that a fair picture was not drawn of.the character and objects of that order. He lamented that his motion for a Committee on this subject had formerly failed, as he was convinced the House had thereby been deprived of very valuable in formation. lie could state on his own authority, that every College of Jesuits was provided with a Member of the Greek church. At present, however, be should content him-elf by moving an Address to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, that he would be : graciously pleased to order to be laid before the Honse a Copy of the Resolutions agreed to at a meet of Catholic Prelates in Dublin, in January, 1799, to gether with a Copy of M. Quarantott's letter, dated —, 1814.