The National Register. — London, England, 1820-10-22 00:00:00

• 'lllot Araponalt ear thfl tittr. Consititittiost, ant SAW. No. 1,275.—V0L. XIII.] 31ttpertat Varitatittnt. HOUSE OF LORDS. TWELFTH DAY OF THE DEFENCE: SIONDAT, OCT. 16. At twenty minutes past ten Counsel were called to the bar. Air. Baououss rose to address the House. He de clared, that before the esoss.examinatiou of the witness Penni should commence, it was considered by hcr Ma jesty's Counsel indispensably necessary that they should be informed precisely who was the adverse party in this c se. The more he reflected upon the nature of these extraordinary proceedings, the more was he convinced of the necessity of being clearly informed upon that subject, eitherwise the difficulties. which were accumulating ra pidly, on all sides, would be increased beyond all poul bility of removal. Lord CALTHORPE expressed a wish to know, for lb* purpose of having a clear understanding upon the point, with which no future question should interfere, who was actually Use prosecutor upon this ease ? To bins It was quite evident that there was a distioction between being a Minister for the King and a Minister for the State, In a legal point of view; and be was surprised that his Noble Friend (Lord Liverpool), whose candour had drawn down the approbation even of those to whom be was politically opposed, had not at a former part of these proceedings rendered it , nnecessary to put the question. He had seen It exemplified in the conduct of the Noble Lord; there existed the distinction to which he alluded between the Minister of the Crown as a part of the State, end a Mi nister of the King individually. If he were not correct in this statement, he hoped to be corrected by some Noble Lord of more legal and parliamentary knowledge. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he bad some difficulty In stating what was required; but he wondered the ques tion had not been mentioned in an earlier stage of the proceedings. There certainly was nothing mysterious in the proceedings. He had, on the Ith of June, laid on the table, by command of his Majesty, cousin papers relative to the conduct of her Majesty while Princess of Wales. He proposed that they should be rearred to a Secret Committee, and many Noble Lords thought it the daisy of the Executive Government to introduce a Bill on the sub pct. He ;trammed other papers; they were referred to a Secret Committee; a Report was made, and a Bill was brought iss. for which he (Lord Liverpool) was responsi ble. In Ibis there was nothing mysterious. The Marquis of LANSDOWN agreed with the state ment of the Noble Earl opposite, that the House were now entertaining the Bill, on his suggestion, and that, for the purpose of instituting the inquiry sought for. the House had created the party at timber, by appointing the Attorney and Solicitor Generals to appear in behalf of the Bill; but the Counsel for her Majesty had entered upon a course of evidence, the object of which was to establish the existence of a conspiracy for the subornation of perjury in support of the prosecution. In proving Ibis they bad to prove an agency, and how could au agency be proved before they knew who was the principal? His Lordship conceived, therefore, that the House were bound, and should have felt it due to their own interests, to the interests of justice and of truth, that au mock of the letters of Col, Meow,' as related to the abstraction of Itastelli should have been called for, and that Ms. Powell should have been compelled to produce it. The Earl of CARNAHVON directed the attention of their Lordships to that part of the case which referred to Carlsrulse, as illustrating strongly the necessity ofn satis factory answer bring given to the question pot by use Counsel for her Majesty. The whole of that part of the ease depended upon the testimony of one witness who had, at the request of one petty German Potetstair, been examined by 'mother, and compelled to come over to give her testimony. The proceeding agaiuseher Majesty, dis graceful as it was its every point of slew, Stood 141 Gs r stimulated, that the House might to know whether it comes irons the constitutional advisers of the king of Engbnul, or from the advisers of the King of Hanover— (Hear, hear!) What would they think of inch 4 waist",' libel oil the character of a defenceless woman and a Queen; orals Inquiry gone into for no other purpose but to libel the character of ass injured and pervecuted individual?-- (Hear, bear, hear!) The witness Pitilippo Pond was stow recalled, anti cross examined by the Attorney General, Yuan, you have boated that you resided in a home at the Ramie. Is that house now vatted the Villa Heigasni ? Yes, at present it iii Celled tile V ill.* lies Whin did you law see 11eigasiss P-1 do not quite recol lect it must have been in August I think, Did you me Wits the day you left the Villa Het gagni I I did nut, How long before ?—I left the Villa tiergami ois the 20th of Se.dember. I saw him iu August, but Ido nut isnot, the sli l y. Will you swear that you dlil not sae Miss in September? cannot swear, It unit have been the latter end of August, or the beginning of September. I have uo um morandna. 1 moot tell. SUNDAY, OCTOBER 22, 1820. Who desired you to come over as a wituesst—No au; my own will. De you mean to swear you nave voluntarily, without any person applying to you for the purpose?—.t came here by niy own will, because I heard that the Advocate 80. lassi was receiving testimony, and I went to him and said I had something to say about that lady, who had done a great deal of good. Will ,on swear that you went to Bolasal of your own accord without aoy application being made to you?—Yes, I will swear that before any tribute'. Were you examined by Bolassi ?—Yes. Nolan' having said you might go, did you cute over of your own accord f —Yes; because 1 told him. that if it had been a business that required me to go 100 mile', I would go willingly. Did you come over to England by yourself. or in the ' company of other persons ?—I came over with my bead master, Garolini, and three other persons. Did yon pay your own @spruces of coming over, in consequence of your corning voluntarily I—l have not. Who paid theta?--41y head muter, who paid all the expences; for he paid for all. Who is your bead master t—Oarolini. Is be your Muter when you live at the Villa Dermal? —He is. What areyes be paid for cowing berg as a witness t This is it. ? u *eat to the Advocate, I told him if viz, this is to be of a little nate, I have no objection to go. The question was reputed; when the witness raid—l told him if I was to go a bandred sales, I would go with out any interest. What are you to be paid for made, here P—As to the pay I cannot tell, because wiles I saw the Advocate. I told him if lie would give some trine to my family, I would go fur that lady to the end of the world. What pay does your family receive t—This it is; they give a here (tenpeuce) for my wife, and half* litre (five pence) to each of my childreuldaughters). Will you swear you have not suede au agreement for a sum of money coming here t—This I can swear, that I have mail* so agreement whatever; but as some people have hopes, I may have some Slopes also. Then I understand you have hopes of remuneration?— , I have told you that I have no hopes. For that lady, the Princess, for the benefits I have received from her, I would go the end of the world. Do you remember on one occasion, going upstairs to mend a door at the B iron ?—How am I to reasesiber that baying been there 100 times!—(A laugh.) Did you ever see her Royal nighties up stain?—Yes is her 01111 MOM. Was it when you were mending the door you saw her?— No i it was when I mended a chest of drawers. Was Renaud with her?—No, I did not see him. Now did you never say you saw, upon that occasion or any other, her Royal Ingham and Buried I. her Royal Higbaess's bedroom together l—How often am I to say se Na"—(Alaugh)—l never did. 1 weer mid, nor Moo 1 soy aim U. Examined by the Lords. Lord GREY,—Was say preposition made to yen to give evidence assist the Queen, sad by whom P—No. Did so one speak to you upon the shires of giving evidence against at Quettut--Yes Itestelli, whom I mentioned the usher day. A LosD.—Do you expect to be paid more or kw, in pro. portion as 'our evidence is more or less favourable to the to the Queenl--1 only say, if they give me, I will take IL— (r% Isugh,) The Marquis of LANiDOWNE asked whether is was Mr. Brougham's intention to examine the next wituse with respect to the charge of bribery. Mr. BROUGHAM said lee should pursue that course fur the purpose of establishing the conspireey. Lent DARN ANNOY asked the Noble Lord (Liverpool) who had acted in Hamner fur the vase againet her Royal fligimes.? Lord LIVERPOOL mentioned, there had been but one agent su Hanover. and tits was toe British Mii —ter. Dogifillo Onsarti eximinvd by Mr. Winne. Are you a Member of the &rimy of Advocnteout Milao I —Yes. Were you there concerneOs agent fur Royal Highness the Prineeis of Wales 1— Y Mil z you know Advocaat Imicar:i /--I did. Had you al any time tiopor nasuoicatiiin with Yilnricarti, mut/ling the Princess of itiltles 1-1 hods thd you, iu that comouttA(4lioll. Captain to Vihnicarti soor reason for log o:tairts told the person who coo- J ui l e 4 hue; to his door. bid you state your lustiness so Vilmicarti P-1 did not. 1)1.1 you cute to Villisicarti what passed between you and the person who took ypu to the dour? —'Put moment he saw ate his knew me, alidliold me to bring the pullets belonging to her Royal DM he olh'r you tiny inducement to Ming those papers Tie litiLicirolo; SNI 81. objected to toe course of en quir)e No conifers between the a noel , mod Vthnicarti emild.be esimmee with reference to the churgcs in the pre :smith; of the Hill. ._... . . , air. W r Loa slid, Vilmicarti ass proved to be an score. diced livitt.aud it %%tut iseceissey tu prove his itch ill the quer ,1 '6 tle•frnee• How the inittutrs of evidence were read by order of the Lord ( hatierlior, utile!' applied to the nets of V thnieurti, lie 0hj...1 hying to divvover %whether hoiy putt If ferted to the I X etiottuuoivittiont tvet wren tl airless illlli Viltuivarti. ;Ir. Bauvou 4 111 runi c cloud Nut:daily ill support of (he 3tet•tionll, :11111 deetar Ibuysitalfr prove that V thinker' I had newt% in the ntu.t atrocious sitattner. He askttl the Lords, and his Lear oed Friend. whose protiority taiibt de putt! opine the Wove of the roeseotiow, this quantum—lt we [Paws 914_ are sew allowed to prove facts of great importeace to we Royal . Client. bow is the Queen to proceed further The goLterroa-Oexisarm, in reply, defended the eller racier of Velmicarti. who was only keens as a penes taking dews We evidence fee the Milan Committee. "-His Leeward Friend had spoken of bribes, bet milese they weld prove thew bribes were @fermi W the witnesses they could not be beard. If Vilmicarti bad given bribes, he had net acted within the scope of his *Whatley, sad the widest& could not be received. TOWBOAT, OCT. IT. The House resumed proceedings exactly at 10 o'clock. A 'endow's; from the Treasury preseated at the Bar— lst. Au Acconat of the Revenue for the last Year! and.. An account of the expenses interred iu the proceed lugs instituted against her Majesty, as far as the same can be made up to the present date.—Counsel were then called in. The LORD CHANCELLOR stated to the House the position In which the proceedings were on adjourning yesterday. Without offering an opinion whether Vilma card ought to be considered as an agent or not, his Lord ship thought that resort should be had to the Learned Judges, in order to know what, under similar circum stances, would be the course of proceedings is the Courts below. The ease be would have stated to them thus taw. If, in the trial of a civil action, or of am indictment. eel. deuce were gives, en the cross examination of a witness examined in chief on the part of the proseentios.lfrora which it might be inferred that A. B. a pone* trot exa mined as a witness, bad been employed as an agent of the plaintiff or prosecutor to collect evidence out his be. half; and if the defendant should propse to examine a person to prove that the said A. B. had offered a bribe to C. 1). to give evidenoe, C. D. not having been a witness examined for the plaintiff or prosecutor, and there being no proof that A. B. bad authority to use undue means to obtain evidence, would Melt examination be permitted by the practice of the Couto of Law? Earl CiKEY.—As an individual, was Indisposed to troubled the Learned Judges on the subject ; for what ever their opinion might be, he ceald never alter his own ' that justice would not be done, unless the Counsel for her Majesty were allowed to proceed with the evidence which they had tendered, to prove that the whole case against her Majesty was bottomed in a system of conspiracy, for the subornation of perjury! (Cries of Hear, hear '—from all sides of the House ;l—) Eia any case, whether on the part of the presecation or defence, a suspicion is excited that an attempt has been made. by corrupting a 'torso's, to impose • false case on the Court, whenever that suspicion arises it is the duty of the Court to•institute an immediate enquiry into the fret.— Their Lordships were bound to du so now, antis they wished to shut their ears to all evidence which might by possibility have the effect of establishing that the whole of the cuss against her blitirsty was a foul conspiracy, resting or fah' and asberaed testimony, to deprive a high and illustrious individual of those possession, without which all that life eau give is of ae valets. The evidence offered to prove the exhiteace eta compirecy, was even of a stronger nature than that tendered yesterday, and which he (the Noble Earl) felt persuaded ought to have been received. 'their Luedobips would 'either do justice to their own character, Nor stood with the public in the situation they must wish so staqd, if they refused to enquire into the conspiracy ; without which substantial justice could not be obtained. The Earl of LIVERPOOL was iu favour of having the opinions of the Judges on this point. Lord ERSKINE said, the attempt of Rastelli to corrupt witnesses was unexampled in the history or jurisprudence I and were their Lordships, with the knowledge of ilea. G e t.** suffer the mutter to rest here f —lf the Counsel for bee Majesty proved various acts of suboruatiou of witnewes, how were their Lordships to know whether the witnesses already examined had nut been tri °cured by these meant. It was the duty of the Count for the defeuce to bring forward evidence to prove this enuspiracy ; and it was the duty of 'lrk Lord ships, as he concerned. to herr that evidence and decide upuu it. It was rruved that an agent Of the Milan Com. engem offered to bribe a single person to give evidence mg sinst the Queen; this single prow of the conspiracy tainted she whole evidence. The Errl of LAUDERDALE objected to the course ad vised by the Noble Lord (Grey), as certainly tending to vio late the rules of tVilit:llCe. wLoch regarded the Pugh ..t and the lowed equally. The agency of Yilinicarti had never been proved. As fur as Cul. Brown could be considered tw concerned iu swim; fur the case. that person might be looked upon :is the ageut of the Colonel tit the tune time couverA. tom tool place, but he had canting to du a nth the agency which it had been timucl neceioary to eoa.-titate, a view to inquiry. In fact the only nay OA prewiaell ;twit' of cutoiag al the truth, was by abiding by the rules of the courts bents, and deciding upon legal ditficuities, with the Lenrneil Jud ges. Lord ItOSSL Y N said, that the rules of evidence Mablished in the Courts below, were eernniuty adopted us the hen means of arriving at the truth, in the caws which generally occurs e.l. ------. ---- Earl GROSVENOR was in favour or gettin g thr question to the Judges, leaving, it to lie afterwards detertuniad what c1i...cl that opillioll might to . .iave on the Hogue. lie embrat ed ' l / 4 .. ' ....s opportunity or (awning, that though he could nut bay ....• Ili, intuit vacs made as to the farts of the case, he bad cow.. - . , . pletely made up Lie 111111 d that the made of pow ceding was ir n it iii...l O il law, awl that it was u.:e in which the House 'l' 39"....— ,1 r, to ~ could nut he iavariditly hound by 'mkt rule. It had beta e , t • , .r 1 Biked , .. h; “AA not Viltuicarti liiithelf called us an evidence. ll• I ..utit Tile ohm: was impossible. Übe was the corium agent re. , •,. .4 ' presented, it uas impossible that her Ntajesty's Couns...l could W•t4 . ""*". I. t venture to call hint as a witness. His .couduct was only so '4,..., a ": ' be gut at by some soli verse of examivatiaa, as th at lakieb AN ' 7 , ~o_,. bad bre' ytotetday Wavered ; and galas URI' Lendeltire vQ.; v. t "li'