The Statesman. — London, England, 1818-02-12 00:00:00

OPOI 6 would be left in a very awkward Mr. LYTTF.LTON esplained. Doctor PHILLIMORE.—." By..a late Treaty chime:its, upon a sentence of restitution in our Courts, were to recover a Mali, asses foe mei Mare found on hoard ships brought in for adjudication to the Admiralty Courts. Now, it would berlosirable to know whether the claimant in such a case should be entitled to make the demand of the Spanish or Britisit Government ?" Lord CASTLEREAGH thoeght that there amid be no stronger claim in equity open the Spanish Go• veipment than .a claimant's being in possession of a sentence of restitution in a Prize. Court. Lord A LTHORP considered the country in toe distressed a state to afford so.large a subsidy to Spain merely to do an act of•humanity. Besides, out own charitable intention would most, likely bet doubted by other cowntries,whe would naturally suppose we pro• posed to ourselves some advantage from the arrange. sep Mr. Wlia • hich had cost this country so large a sum. LBERFORCE.—Leaving oat altogether the question of humanity, the mode now proposed was more efficacious for all the purposes of the Treaty, as well as the serest . and cheapest way of ensuring to this • country the supplying of the native Africans with those productions of Europe for which they had already imbibed so strong a relish, mod were daily becoming more attached. The supply of an ea. tent of coast, from the River Senegal a p p ly 1 of 2,6C0 miles iu length; and. the interior trade arising out of this supply on the coast, meat be an object of great importance with this Country.. Mr. CA i..CRA FT admitted that two great points vu teen gsittectchy the Treaty—the right of scorch, • the Abell:lee - of the Steve Trade to a certain were all,.British.as will u others, the Spanish Government. 1. Lord CASTLEREAGH staled, they had only followed the, -1;46, with Pertugai relative to thw.sami therefore, would be the party to - ander the Treaty shOold •pply. Air. J• P. GRANT.-- t • There r,leim upon this fond, sot"' of b ,rat to plead, and We "We it to pities paid," Mr. W. SMITH contended, equally interested in the measure as a political mercantile errangensent. • . Sir ft. IIELtON feared the King of Spain would be enabled to levy war with his revolted Colonies , ,with redoubled energy, in consequence of this graqt, directly to ilia prejudice of the mercantile - interests of this country.--[llear, ‘ hear I .] The Resolution was then agreed:lei, itiulthe Noise resomieg, the Report was ordered to be received to. morrow. . . . SPIES AND 'INFORMERS. Mr. FAZAKERLY belted the indulgence of the House, While he entered into a statement of trans action* I. which he felt it impossible not to draw the attention of the House, inadequate as he conceived himself to the task. Various circumstances bad transpired on the occasion of the late trials, which had corroborated the suspicions so generally enter tained, that Government had employed persons in the disturbed counties to develop the conspiracies there stated to have esistence, who had exceeded their in._ structlons, and added fuel to flame. It was indifferent to him if Oliver or any other parties were branded with the opprobium of having excited their fellow-sohjects to acts of open rebellion. Thee circumstances, coupled with the last Report of the Secret Committee of last year,called loudly for satisfectoryexplanation from ihe Executive Government, why they had not takes any measures to bring these offenders themselves to justice, when they had already taken so much pains to bring innocent men to trial. The powers' of the late Act for the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act had not been sparingly exercised. The jails throughout that part of the country were filled with petions accused of treason, and the provinces, slimed by the extraordinary eireemetance of per sons dragged from jail to jail, laden with irons, and finally slut up from all possible intercourse with their friend!, by she most arbitrary exercise of who• rity, solitary confinement.—[Near, hear, hear i The whole conduct of Goiernment was a tissue of measures the weakest and the most arbitrary. — Whets these severities had concluded, the Govern ment had fallen all at once from their high tone, and dricendmi to the absurd demand of recog nisance./row innocent MPII, which it was soon con sidered expedient to abandon, and the affair termi nated by a paternal admonition to return beneath the sheltering auspices of a fostering Government. [A laughs, and Hear, hear !]—The last Report of the secret Committee had pointed out these men as pro. 1 per subjects of Ministerial vengeance, and as having made an ithproper use of their comn.ission, jet no attempt had been made to bring them before the bar of their country.—(llcor!)—Although spies might be resorted to, and the vices of the individuals con cerned in atrocious conspiracies he made the instru ment of public safety, still their testimony shoUld be scrtititrised with the utmost scrupulousness, and ne ver be listened to without being accompanied by proof of unequivocal corroborative facts. He cots eluded with moving, that it he an instruction to iliir Committee now sitting, to enquire whether any and what measures had been taken to detect and bring to justice those persons who had been described by the Report of the Secret Committee, of the '2oth June, as having encouraged those designs which it was in tended they should have detected and brought to light. Mr. BATIIURST complimented the Hon. Mem. her upon the manner in which he had brought for ward the present q •estinn. But he would rest for the defence of his Majesty's Ministers on the Report of the Committee, which had formed the ground work of the lion. Member's motion. As to Oliver's conduct, as unconnected with the part he took in the development of the treasonable designs of the con spirators, it had never been attempted to be impeach. ed. With respect to Oliver, all lee had to say was, that not a single person was ever taken up on his in. formation. The lion. Gentleman had referred to the eteceliope at Pertly. Now all that these executions showed was, the spirit that prevailed in parts of the country. it was this spirit which every wh e re made tb e accused say, " True, we are guilty, but it was your agent made us so."—Ukar, bear!] —With r oped etp . what fell from one of the unfortustate suf. hare in his dying moments, all he should sal wss, titer Oliver never raw that person. Mr. FAZAKFAII.X.—" I made no allusion what ever to the. trials at Derby, but to those in London." Mr. BATHURST then said, that the lion. Gen. tionsan'e argument did not apply, for the second Re port of the Secret Committee merely referred to what was passing in the country, and not to any thing connected with, the trials in London, which were then terminated triumphantly for the accused. . The Report of the Committee was founded upon ieforma? tine relative to the disaffected in the country ; sod Oliver had nothing to do its the way of excitements or any thing else, with Brandreth and his comps. nions, who said that Oliver and Government were the instigators of their acts,, though it was ca.: lain that this person miser saw the 'ceased, or bad any coneectioe with.them. There was then no case , whatever matte out against the Government through out the whole of there proceedings; and they were surely net to blame, even if,, o or the whole cif parconstant:roof the case,. they , . uciede4 the 'lslet lies of their duty for thespaseration of the public pace. Goierninent invariably icted on information which was corroborated by the statements of Magi strates is the couutry. Ou the %hole, there bring and Government _ yed Lord-MILTON resented,- and said, that however he may concur in the Right IloneurableGentleman's premises, he most wholly differ from him in his coinclusion. He would maintain that, if Oliver asa not the cause of. these.disterbeaces,. -et least 4t, cAild be said that they were the consequence of his esertions among the Pitaplee—(llear, henr.l) This spy had 'to assume the character of au asso ciate among them—be had to appear a particular chancier in - their arts—and :en his movements much depended, ard he verily believed a great deal did turn on the acts of this meti-7—(flear!)— The Report of the Lords' . Committee did Pardee larise the disturbances—it traced them to the mid-. land and northern manufacturing districts, where the People had been led to look up . to London for • the' signal of action ;- and by whom were they so., influenced?—by Oliver —( Hear I) and to hie, manoeuvres could be traced the whole violence that had occurred. The connection between the country isid London was the main point urged in the Report ; •but by whom was that connection kept,ep ? by per, sons specially sent down to the coeotry for thapur pose, by his Majesty's Secretary of State. The Magistrates of Sheffield knew well that Oliver's appearance kept up the spirit of the disaffected in the country, where the greatest anxiety prevailed to know the intentions of the London Delegate, as he was called—this very delegate, who went down en purpose to blow into a flame the 'scattered Annbers of combustible matter which the distresses of the times created.—( Hear, hear!)—lt was int% possible calmly to revert to these matters without being persuaded that 'much of the mischief Which' prevailed was to be attributed to this man. Wilb 5 respect to the dying declarations of the unfortunate men at Derby, all he had to say was, that.he had no information on which to found either a credit or discredit as to the declaration. His mind was eq.. tainly rather indisposed to csedit what the unfortu nate men said, but he thought that a vast number of the violent persons in the country had a right to com plain of the manner in which they were ultimately involved through the swans of spies sad informers. — [Hear !]—The fact was, that the strong and just complaints against the use of them character, ema. rusted from persons as little concerned with the dis affected, as either himacif or the Right Hon. Gentle man opposite. The Right lion. Gentleman had said that no persons were taken upon the information of O!iver; this was perhaps, strictly speaking, the case —but might it not have so happened that he was the cans-, though not in a direct manner, of the arrest of a great number of these men whom he met in dif ferent pasts of the country ?—lle (Lord 'Milton) did not complain of the arrest of these persons, though he thought the time must come when an enquiry into that circumstance must take place.—[Hear !]—lt wee a clear and indisputable fact, that wherever 'these spies went, symptoms of insurrection occurred; bat where they did not appear, every thing was `sulet.—[flear!]—So it was in the West Riding of Yorkshire—there violence appeared, because the fomenter 'of it got among 'the People—Vicar !]—so it was in Derbyshire. • Mr. RATHURST.—" Oliver was not there." , -: [Hear, hear] Lord MILTON." Dees the Right Hon. Gentle. ban meals to persist in that declaration ?"—{,Heat I] • Mr. BATHURST.—" He was not in the part of that county where the insurrection broke out." • lord MILTON.—IIe might not have been on the identical spot, and yet tie might have mainly mind. buted to what occurred there by his acts in its rid itity.—[l leer, hear-IT—But let the Right Hon. Gen tleman refresh his recollection a little relative to the tour of Oliver—he can recollect what occurred from two to eight o'clock, but he is not so precise at sub.. serpent hours. The House would not.do its duty substantially and effectually for the country if •it did mot now. einuire into the conduct of the men em., t ployed by Government, and also 'into that of tbeW employers.—[Hear, hear !]—lt was a little tests ; 'much to hold the People of this country in such die-. esteem, as to be astonished at their holding its just abhorrence and indignation the characters of spies and informers. It was evidently the object of Ministers to excite alarm last Session, and, they availed them selves of every subsidiary means to promote and ex tend that alarm. • The'imprudence. of the Peopld ta many instances furnished them with a ground for their proceediegs, and of this they cordially availed themselvee.—[Hear !]—Whatever obloquy he may draw on himself by thus candidly stating his opi nien, he was ready to meet. As a Member of the Committee, be also timed tastate,,that berreterned his hearty thanks to his Honourable Friend whir made the present motion, for giving him an oppor-, molly of seeking further information on the mat ter about which they were to enquire. As one, el the Committee, be of course stood only as an Is t dividual, and bad but a single voice. The ~Grim=, mittee were bound to, obey the opinion of Os House, and be earnestly hoped that by acceding to the present motion, the path of the Committee would be made clear, and its duties implicitly deified. —(Hear, hear !) Mr. C. GRANT, junior, theught,tbe Non. ,Gene Hems. mho made the "(wet motion, called on the House to adopt a very novel proceeding, without stet iag any sufficient reason to justify their departure hum the invariable course of Varlismentary forms.— . _ sti nelfl ,en Oe s preseot occasion, for Ii vs tfilit chefs. joctho,4.ote motion -74bet It Celle to have ' h'uiltlilig rerwrred,tw as Committee in which I cannot place del" Sightest confidence—(Hear, 14471) 7 -nor can country', when it recollects the persons eppointingthe Committee, the - Members of which it is composed l y etid the enquiry they bare to make. The House us. rot pot out of its mind that the party appointing the Committee is tlie'Paity inlaid; and also the party to furnish, the intidencr.whicls is to affe c t their oielleatt. - - —( /kar !)--4s to the use of .spies,. and' defena of , them, I shall.sey but little I Chad leave guardianship of..the Hight Hon. Gentlemen opposite' (Mr., Hailtarst), r ho is the chtmon suocher.for chew. , • factor at that aide of the House. • I, 'to o t' otie, AA' the-Right-Hon. Gentleman's :argeMent . was worthy" of his cause—it furnished • the Ott .answer and anti. dote te. his own statement-4liter ; !)—=for he acidi that the natural consequence of the employment of these people (these were 'his very words), was to fo. went the mischief they were merlin to repress.—(/dea r!) 4 —lie shoaled off, as his Majesty's Gosernmeut ge., florally did, the reel luestion, and left these wretch ed beings, the spies,: lb shift for themselves—to be employed by country Magistrates 'wherever their services appeared.to he wanted. .On the employment of spies, I shell ° not now give a general opinion; know the difficulty there must be in drawing i strict line on such a subject, but I know that Whk•referi. • vice to the late disturbanCes, spies employed by Go.. Torment have done acts which I cannot recollect with. • out shame, or speek.of without indignatiott. They Ira. yelled through Lancashire and other • parts of the country in organized bodies ; they were fosteksod and encouraged ; an d dol l ish I shall• not flame partictilar Magistrates, set I may say that at Bolton, persons who were,ready to work sieteets heaps a. day,'iit the rate of seven shillings a week wages; Were fauna to' pri.; •: fer double that suns in the ft mOtoyenf7t4. of *soiling fbe blood of their neighbours. . Captainc Reines has pub.. fished a book relative to these spies, and he souco n ei On the conduct of a gallant Officer nevi no tow., and whom I shall not name because be no Woe, lives to answer the charge brought against . him — .Re states• tbe instructions given to these characters. Aorl.bere I will appeal to the Member for Britisher (Mr. Wilberforce) near use, and ask his opittion of the responsibility incurred by" the employers of wretches who could go about the country 'adminis. tering an oath of secrecy, the terms of which cow. witted their bodies to destruction, and threw hack their souls to their Creator in the event of any sio 'mine of their pledges. I do not pretend to any, particular regard for the sanctity of religion beyorid that which any honest man ought to feel, but I•de say it is shocking to hear the imputation made, that . an English Officer should ,have encouraged men to enlist under such an Oblidation for the sole perpae dt afterwards breakirog it. None but the basest of beioo could leo& the least colon or countenance to tech measures as these, and, as it was said, for the' suppeit. of a legitimate Government—that is, to support tbl laws, as they are termed, by a breach of Merl thing that is lawful, every thing that is good. The Right . lion. Gentleman opposite has , given a character to Oliver, the iiisissarf. of Goverumen't. Here I beg the House toltleitllect, that the connection between this spy and the disaffected had arisenaccidentaly, of Se cidentallyi in the first instance, and before his CO!- Election , with Government., Now when the Heel* shall have ipeard the arse Iwo about to lay before it . shall have beard the 'Matter I am about to adduce-4 say it dire' not refuse the instriethWie which are now Moved,for.—(Cker of hear, heer!)--. I use the expression that• it dare not, berates I know it cannot, by refusing the motion, consent to sink its character with the country !at large. The Right lion. Gentleman panegyrisettlliver this Vert ad he would Castle last yea'', who Was believettbyder Auorney and Solicitor*Generali, reed by the Judges' but, th ank God,'not r eed Jery (Hear, hear !)—Io reference to. the trial oat which this fellow appeared, I do not wish to'be understood as wholly acitaittlyg the persons therein coiinectert —on the coutrery, I believe they were guilty of a serious offence; but that offence web not Iligh Treason.—(Cries of hear, hear !)—it • was not the crime in which Government clothed it by the testis snotty of the bully of a brothel, the Osier of forted motes, the spy of the. Transport Office, the wrotcb who war throat into the'teltness'e boa in the dress tif Orptleman„ procured, fir him on the occlotiorf ttf, ere a colour to hie appearance by the Police of Hews.' street.—(Hear l)—On. the sebject'of Oliver,. wheal excelletit Moral ,che:tiiMetfliedbeen so praiied !Hight fioneurage . Gen time!), I shall say -mate• thing to the Reese—l shall disclose some circem• stances relative to It,, n ititoot disclosing the source !!! my information, although I have permission, Ir necessary, ofete.,my authority for what Ism ew. about to declare. ~T his .Oliver, so far as lit ge neral • reputation is known, _began his career by the ' cowl I mission of a ellq„effence, and has since gun rfi, step by step until he reached the. pres ent acme a Ills forme.:, Like hie greet and gopol coodjour, Castle,. be began career: by ,epnattuiting the crime of bigamy ; •he .married one wife while the other MI alive; .and as to other' parts of his character , have to declare; diat'whenever be shall be pat into witn 3,'s boa, I shall show that he o.sig, fLe ti lse 11 : bolth 'o the mercy and forbearance of t...4et. . ' 1 t" -- -t•' • •1 I , • ';.)-4. . t, .. ' ~ .i - ... ' No- ' ....----4 , ... ‘.......... - - - ,,;•• ,,;•• I . , tothedeclaration that t not WO o ' .•, I .4:T4aq On Ire* iis t ooeld appeer to if thil, Isoptiolifilcie tee . • out, he would ee l King 01 , Simla* /As Neill t receive' 410 ' ik ,, J os ' oisee....•-..4-, - i ,' -.... . . tiled those who were said to ye fonieneld A s is , vp4se_ibir*. *ilk!, proofth e charge ttheft as was o nbrtohoeg presenthr eith 200,00 a. mu d t bi re o n i a „ g lAboot. was to . i i , jliootr 10 4 . N o tidth,thst if ever be e s pid' i be pep. *bane's, this was old, and on reset occasions hrt propristed to making good Ake lessee incaysid , 1 1 1 11 . , 11 9/0 0 . itr; the•lionourableoffice of e spy,. .been alleged, and as often refuted ; so it was in 1793, captures under particular circumstances , and 'others he would wish to- itcriept the .engegemeet under the consequent. -upon tits Abolition •of • tint SI a va.,l .111104304Putsble Comikni4- who bad just 44 6,1" asos it t it w tl a e s s in em l rla l nc ; e B o n f d Was it to be understoed, then, that these claimist.to -(7 1 / 1 41*, hear! and Inaelder)-7-frod whose speech occasion: -incur !]—lt was a little extraordinary • were to bo referred to the Y oi ; o niiih G ove i ti vioaß—i web eatcorststdsto mislead . Clue -1111010 41 the present bow Oliver. could he charged with . doing . 114111;c16 •r 410Leatcas.beqapvalssadad that _these legalctsiaseats Omelet:. -,- • .5_.,......_,,,.• . actualyL4,2l2itlace before. he went. into the count r. . .. would bo left in a very awkward situatkto if they Mr. 8/4.f.HUWirts74vdthitsweimerogit, to or. T'iact was, igi t iteinititirejrant itiTiltlpers. were all,_Ballish_as well as other', to be referred to der, told said, " Idesireig.know if the Noble Lord lion when he Dined in it. The Meetings on the lOtit the Spanish Goveretnent. 1 , means to say that I wistaateatioually, te,iiiilAtithe and both March liqlpritiedid iiii - ar"!liallii - th - e - ctiin.• Lord CAS'r LEREA OH stated; . ibit in • this case HOnse?"—(if tangle) , _ ~ • try, ~ .) f,it ostql.)po. 10 •theiollver',Wii the 4004 ... they had only followed the, iii,triedent of• e Treaty Lord MILTON retumd, and repeated, that the gator, .gtf.the Qtrtt,#.o:tvbil.. would. net they albs tiled ... with Portugal relative it's a r ty to subject. Spain, speech piths Ri g ht Honourabk Gentleman- pus cni. Learned Gemmel have attempted to sabstaaiiatitbac - therefore, Would he the party to whom the claimants ciliated to mislead the .House.: He said, that .the fait ? world It not have strobe? . °Permed epee die. ' . ender the Treaty should apply*. „, first mission of this Oliver bad bees undertakes with* the Jury, and indnee4.olnotin. the event of . ceivrit.' i' Mr, J. E.GRA yr......" T here tee persons yet to 01$ the permission of Government. . . lion to have accompanied their verdict with a receut. - . . . claim upon this fend , softie of *IA* have 'a judg . • Mr. BATHURST.—" I distinctly sa i d , . 'bet, the mendellOn'tif mercy.'f•:-(Bilri.:'hhaft)Tlikt ibseerg mint to plead, and Weise@ it . to oariaies to see these peisoni engaged la the .service of Government had, of as attempt of Ibis' kind. wit fit his . opiniipi; kr-i parties paid," buso previously found engaged its these proceedings. poweeforspresumPtion that'‘ so seek 'Statement roal&ft . Mr. W. SMITH Contended, that France was Mier was fbond in . conseetton with the disettoceei have belle supported. Its .nivoipeelil . case was midt. •• .• • -____-__l , ..._ —........ o nolitical and ttriote*Bottornment employed him." out, bitioutd Cerbikiljr oppose the mo . tient , .. , .....- 41 : . • _. •.1 L. _ . ._. t._--.. Mr..HENNETT.-" Sir, I-find inyietflrst - . AN" ' ' _. •11 1 ' merce. if a man were to embark his property in fiat species of traffic, and if the Spanish Government were to be consistent in their prohbitory decrees, no mischief could fusee ; but if those decrees were con tinually varying in their nature to the merchant who shipped his goods on the supposition that the duties were remaining as they were before, loss must be the consequence. Re - trusted. that the Noble Lord _ . Asada, i.eaobao l (Lord Castlereagh)•wouto *non him to insist that due notice should be given of any alteration- intended by the Spanish Gareernmeat. Be conceived that this was what the commerce of the, country had a right to expect, and he would now only ask if any such meavere.as be had described was in contemplation ? He would beg to, ask if any temonstrancebad been made. and if any had been made, what answer had been received ? Lord CASTLEREAGH was sorry that' let cteuld not .give that satisfactory answer which he weld have voished. He lamented, as much as the sal Hon m ourable Gentleman, the fatal influence of mush cooverc regelations aa had just been mentioned ; bat it asset not be forgotten, that until ver y lately, and until tbm •yes of this country *ate open to the MI and 10-1 stantial advantages of a libelist system of commiketae t i the same clogs to the freedom a trade eliatid jam us now 'listed in Spain. He hod no hesitation in saying, that such a system must impoverish every state that pursued it. It was certainly desirable that these regulations' .should be removed, es far as re. . garded_ this couottly, but it woeld be equally de sirable that they should continue, if the endeavors, was to weaken Spain ; in that csee the way woeld be to preserve most of the duties as they 'aimed upon. tariff, which must necessarily have no other effect than driving the People to a contraband tralfic--. There could be no doubt that lower duties would be. more available to the Spanish Government, but this was a subject which did not come within the con. troul of his Majesty's Ministers. Two propositions bad been made, with a view of obtaining a modifica. tient of the existing duties, and of opening the trade upon more liberal terms, but be was sorry to say, that little or no progress had beets made. There were strong prejudices to encounter, which he was fearful could not readily be done sway with. With re. ',pea to the particular question,as to the duties inSpain, Ise was not aware that he could give any satisfactory answer, the question being too complicated in its mature to allow him to reply at once. He did not recollect a case of grievance being felt from a want of notice, nor was it the case in this country to gien.l such notice when duties were increased. It woad, perhaps, be better to-return to the ancient system of commercial regulation as it was practised In 1792. — At that time cottons were as much excleded as they were now, and he was not aware that even if in con eeque'iee of the introduction of different relations, this country was benefited for the time, that it had any right to complain of the Spanish Government's choosing to return to the old standard. It was cer tainly to be much regretted that a greater liberality of sentiment did not prevail, and nothing bad been want ing on the part of his Right Honourable Friend (be l'irsitlent of the Board of Taade, whose peculiar province it was to watch over the commercial in terests of this country, to point oat to the Court of Spain the policy of pursuing a snore enlarged system, and to prove to it, that it might enrich its subjects while it was conferring benefits upon every other country. Thw, however, were altogether new maxims, and the truth of them were far from being apparent to prejudiced minds. Of this the relation between Great Blitaiti and Ireland, before the Union, a tiortled the strongest proof, by showing that the sys. ton of fettering commercial intercourse was equally ruinous to both countries. Mr. LYTTELTON expressed his satisfaction in hearing from the Noble Lord an expose of senti ments so sound and generous in themselves, and so sitiafactory to that House and the mercantile and ma nufacturing interest' of this country. He could congratulate the House, from his own knowledge, that the sentiments of his Honourable Friend at the head of the Board of Trade were in unison with those of the Noble Lord, and hoped such sentiments would continue to be acted on, and produce cur. responding effects on the commerce and wealth of this country. His intention had been to press his objections to the Spanish Tariff, principally as it af fected, by suddenly increased rates of duty, the im portation of iron. Mr. ROBINSON observed, that the prohibition if cotton was riot absolute, but the monopoly of purchase was vested is the Philippine Company. Al. thouels other articles had been prohibited, neither woollen goods nor iron were among the-number; but they were certainly subjected to extraordinary high duties, which might have nearly the effect of a prohi bition. l - 14;