The Statesman. — London, England, 1818-02-04 00:00:00

r' • R~'' .) •~ ,-,~ halve s &trod, genera, ,s wo o d iould r ejfelle- 114 bad told the House origietly, that he did not think' that the labours of the °mollies could be brought to a close in one Session, for it was plolpable,,teet two or three Sessions might be requisite f or l` .through Ida -- kquiries reify, as to the public fk• and expenditure. The consideration was oue of glut extent and magnitude. Doubts had been expressed respecting the Intentions of GOvernseesit;'ead ma Honourable Friend of his, the. Member . fee Warn. Der; had seemed to think that GOverireoet migbt* little is tbe mean time; but be could say, that le the mean time Government bad dans s peat dear, end anticipated much of the eapected berefft. things, however, yet remained 10 be considered; 1 9 3 great reductions bad already been made by .the ti o , -moment. The labours of the Committee bed iv laced the qeestion as to its details into a nirrowee compiles. The situation of affairs in Ireland siise not weakened, but, 'on the contrary, he believed that the internal tranquillity of that portion of ale Esiipire wss improved. He had reason to think and to trust, that the charity and benevolence of the opulent and higher classes of society in Ireland 44 tended to draw together more closely, and bettet lo unite, all the social attachments. These bees* ' and reliefs from the higher to the poorer bad bee t. afforded without being compelled by law. He did not wish to occupy much of the time of the House bet he yet desired to call their attention to the con. sideration of the last, and for the present year. Ho should propose there-appointment of the same Cots. mittee which was appointed last year. The trouble .they had taken, and the experience they had pined,. were very considerable and important. lie there fore should conclede by moving for the appointment of the Committee, to examine into the stale of the Public Income and Expenditure.--Agreed to. Lord CASTLEREAGH then moved that the Com mittee should consist of 21 Members. Mr. BANK ES made some observations respecting the propriety of certain Gentlemen being in the pro. posed Committee ; on which Mr. TIER.NEY observed, that his own health, though better, was not such as be might desire; and therefore he abould wish to be excused from a close attendance at the Committee. Lord CASTLEREAGH thought it might be very desirable to have particular Members on the COM. mittee; but yet that it would not he desirable to alter the (rause and constitution of tPe Committee. • Me. RANKES coasider,ed that the attendance ie such a Committee of Gentlemen in office stood oa different grounds from the attendance of other Men. berm. . The motion was then agreed to. Leave was given to the Committee to sit from time to time, and during adjournments, and also to report to the House, from time to time, the result of shalt proceedings. DROPPED ORDERS. The SPEAKER addressed thp House on the sub. ject of the Dropped Orders. He sighed them to consider the expediency of settlieg the discussion of the writers dropped on Monday, for the facilitation of public business, by disposing of such Motions for future days. It was his desire to adopt the ge neral feeliug and opinion of the House, and he should proceed to reed the Orders. Mr. WYNNE said, that the whole doctrine re specting Notices and Orders did not stand so much on a matter of right but of Custom ; more particu larly so from the practice of live or six years past y • which had given to the present mode a sort of whop. rit iy. The SPEAKER observed, that what he desire - was, to collect the sentimeuts and wishes of the House.. lu former times, a Notice for a particular day car. tainly had the precedency. Perhaps, if that wet. the rule, it might he better to adhere to it. RANK RESTRICTION. Mr. GRENFELL said, that in consequence of the answer given by the Chancellor of the Eschequer, to the question he had put on Thursday, he felt it necessary to make a few observations in submitting the' motion of which he hid given noti. e. The Right lion. Gentleman would not say on what ground Om Bank Restriction Act was 'to be renewed, but he thought it very certain, from what be did say, that it was intended to renew that very objectionable men,. sure. Indeed, from, what he had beard, before the Right Hon. Gentleman's mysterious esplanation, he thought that be would find some grounds for Imp renewal ; and it was always his eipectstion that his Majesty's Ministers would attempt it, notwithstand• ing their promises.—(Hear, hear I)—After what had pissed in 'the three last years, be could not believe their promises, though not only the Right Hon. Gentleman, but nearly every one of his 'Majeure Ministers, had assured the HMO that the Bank would sesame Cash payments at the ezpiration of tho present- Aet... 4acollected pal ticularly the pro , . Wass to this effect of the Right lion. Commissioner of Woods 'and Forests (Mr. Huskisson) ; and the Public had been at least disposed to believe that these . pledges of Government might be depended on, espe cially as they were accompanied by the solemn assurances of the Bank, that they were most anxious to resume their payMents in cash, protesting that . they should be happy When the day arrived which . would free them from the Restriction. From all t , that. he could learn, and home conversatien which he • hatf -- held . with : a. meat respectable Gentleman,. Os Gq. ) vetnor of the Bank, Mr. Harman, be was inclined tie,. believe them sincere; might not the Hank say, then„,:,! to the /louse, .relieve as 'horn the aituatiosi you placed us in in 17.97-4 situation of suspicion atulmore tification. The circumstances which had been' the rain of many country' banks, had increasedas wealth of the Bank of England ; end. yet they were told, told over and. over again by tar, Member for . Taunton (Mr. Bar;ng), who was then en Paris, sip posed to be arranging matters hearing upon this sulk ~ject, they had also' been toht by: other *Meml,era connected with the Bank, that the &A Kau shlsY* onions to resume their cash paymenis Land that the Restlictiets Nat's public cODgetlieii4l. Who" " I ' 4 to be a strange inconsistency, between , these welter' of the facts belonging to the subject. The mearale to which he had called their attention,. bad been ti.o laminas of enacument eight aim's; &ha :lc hored . . 1- to t m ai re l' it b te . e t a blale ttoo it a in ga .b io opp iel oit i te t tr, u he it ahLdd similar doceements, to entreated AM's 06con. . ;roededn ei prepared to show that Government !ayes 10iem o 'b eery thing that was Attded, ir general!, wpg asad d melt titbieiontry a ln k \ alt7b from eti i. that Government would r con id peirope. f 114 bad IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, FED. S. FINANCE—BANK RESTRICTION. The Earl of LAUDERDALE moved for a artsieS of Accounts relative to the state of the Revenue and the Public Debt : among them was an account of the produce of the And Tax for the years 1812, 13, 14, 15, ■nd• 18 ; an aceoont of the Funded Debt and the Charges thereon to the let of hostelry; 1818; an account of the Unfunded Debt from the Ist of Fe bruary, 1803,-to the .let of-February, 1818 ; eft ae count of the total sonvent of the National Debt to 'the same date•; an account of thesameuut of the 5 per Cent. Stock, &e. These (Motions were agreed to. The Earl of LAUDERDALE then said, that though he was aware busioesebof mach importance was expected, he must trouble ! their Lordships with some motions connected with a question of tha great. Est moment to the interest of the country. The time Was fast approaching when the subject of the resump tion of cash payments by the Book must come be fore their Lordships, and when that great question snow( he decided ono way or another. Re trusted that Parliament would not consent to continue the Restriction without a full - enquiry into the circum stances of the case, which alone could enable them to Cottle to a right decision on. the whole of this ques tion, epon which more than upon any other the wel. fare of tee country depended. lo the meantime he should merely move for the following accounts, viz. the Banknotes in circulation during the years 1815, 1816, and 1817; the highest and lowest amount of the - notes in Circulation at different periods, between the Ist of January 1816 and 1817, distinguishing the note's above and below 51. ; the market price of gold and silver bars, and Spanish dollars, sod the course of exchange on Ilamburgh, from the lst of Jan. 'lBl5 to Jan. 1818, both inclusive. The num ber of Stamps issued during the same period for Pro. missory.notes, distinguishing the different kinds. Lord KING rose to. ask for information on the subject t 4 the Bank. Ile was induced to enquire of the Noble Secretary of State what was really in tended with respect to the resumption of cash pay. wents ; for very considerable alarm had been excited by what had b.wn reported to have been stated on high authority in another place. The reason which had been stated for the continuance of the Restriction on the Mink, would. perhaps, appear to many perfectly unintelligible ; but he was the more inclined to regard it with alarm, es he was certain that the reason •hich bad been wr merely the ostensible and w, , given was _ uecretary or _ tie ~ oght ore.. _ not the rearone. The reason which cad been assigns, ships- were entitled tp some explanation from the rd was certain financial operations in the money. Noble Viscount, of the reasons on which his conduct market, particularly great Loans negociating for was founded. The Papers the Noble Viscount bad soother country. Now this, he was snared, ought. laid on the table must have one of two objects not, and could not, be the reel'caose of delay in the either it is meant to found on them some prospective resumption of cash payments. Were the scene of measures, which however he hoped could not be the this story to be changed, and were a French Minister case; or else it is intended to make them serve to to say, that the Bank of France had ample fonds to the House and the country as a justification of the outset every demand, was ready to pay all its notes, past. If either of these objects were in view, or bet that some Loans which were making in per- both of them, 'it was equally important- that their many rendered it necessary' to posttiOne the day of Lordships should have the opportunity, not only of payment—were this to be said in a French Legislative examining the Papers, bet of investigating every cit.- Assembly, how would the Minister who ventured cumstance connected with them, whit!' 'might be nm. such a paltry excuse be derided and scoffed at Their cessary to elicit the truth. The mode of selecting the Lordships must, however, now sae the necessity of intlivideale to whom the Papers were to be tobmit. strict Investigation. Every moment that the resump. ted was therefore a question of great importance: tints of cash plyments was delayed was fatal to the for it was most essential, with * view -to any measure welfare of the country. Until that healthful course that might be adopted, that the investigation should wacreserted to, financial •difficelties and distress be full 'and complete. Thal.was the only eequiry must continue to increase. Without it, there could ' which could be satisfactory either to the Boise or he no stability, no security for properity of any kind. the People. It was, therefore, an important ques. Their Lordships were mot iguitrant of great embarrass. lion for their Lordships, whether in choosing a Cunt. meat and loss which had been sustained by the do. mittee, it ought not to he one so constituted as to preciation of paper &klieg the war. Great distress ensure a full investigation of all the parts of the sub. had been since occasioned by the mensures'which had ject submitted to their 'consideration, and thereby beep taken to bring it to par. A difference had again to lay a foundation for measures which could not fail been produced. and hence it was thought necessary to be satisfactory. For this reasoo 'he sobtnittett to that the Bank should continue to refuse' payment of the Noble Viscount, whether he ought not to state their notes. The uncertainty of the armors, of the to the House the reasons which bad induced him to Government in this respect produced fluctuations, propose the coarse of secret investigation which bis which were destructive of every kind of property, motion implied. and attacked the interests of all classes. it must Lord SLDMOUTH, in reply, stated, that in 1801 therefore be obvious that there could, es he had al. a Committee of Secrecy had been appointed ill coo. ready said, be no stability in money transactions en- sequence of a Message from the House of Commons, less the currency of the country was placed upon a but that was not the mode they were called on to solid foundation, and the- Bank resumed the whole. follow now, nor was it necessary by the practice Of some practice of paying its.notes in specie. He hoped the House in that case more than when a comma. be should hear from the Noble Secretary of State cation was received from the Throne. The first corn. t ornetirieg satisfactory on this-important subject. munication last year was no mere than a Message, The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he should be which when sent did not presume to state what the ready to meet the question upon this subjett when. proceedings of the Committee of Secrecy were to be, ever the discussion came on. At present it was not but merely laid papers before the House to be sob necessary to go into it. lie had maintained upon mitted to their consideration. That was the course former occasions, and he now maintained, that it was of proceeding he called on their Lordships to pursue of essential importance that the payments in cash at at present ; that was all the appeal he Made to them the*Bank should be resumed at the earliest period It But in answer to the Noble Mtrqois; he had no be. was possible to resort to such a measure, but it was sitation to say, that the object of the Papers laid be. admitted by many of those who originally opposed fore them was to pot their Lordships in possession of the Restriction, that it involved a question of great fads which tended to show what had been the state delicacy and difficulty. lie could now state that of the country since the last Report of the Committee there was nothing in the internal situation of the of Secrecy, .anti to show their Lordships the manner cooetry, nothing in the state of oar foreign relations, in which the discretionary potters vested in Minister& that could tend to prevent the 'Bank from pay. had in the. mean time been exercised. As 'to Ihd lug in specie at the time appolused, for which larger powers which the Noble Marquis had desired ' they had made preparations, and for which they were. for the Committee, there was no power vested in a ready. Circumstances, however, might arise out of Committee of that House, as in • Committee of the the negociatione of foreign cuuutries, which Might House of Commons, to call for papers, persons, and vender it expedient to ,pottpone for a- time the re-' records; if the Committee wanted further informs. somption of cash 'payments; the Noble Lord said tion, they might, through their Chairemo, make a that this argument would„ apply -forsony time, be motion for• the attendance of witnesses bot - the (Lard Liverpool); on ilto contrary., could state with 'coarse he had now -proposed, was that which bad al. the istniost confi dence,, diet beyond a certain period ways been followed by Committees of that House. theca causes must cease to operate. Asto the asses. The Earl of•CARNARVON observed, tbat . after lion that the government were not able .to pay their the House bad been told from the Throne that the debts 'l4 the Batik, be could Most confidently state country was in a state of perfect' tranquillity,' they Ow the Goveroment were ready to •paf.all that the could not be acting nu the sper•of any necessity; or Batik ate- detnauite This argument, therefore. feel the influence of alarm; there was, therefore, was of the ottly.circuasstaace that could full time for deliberaticni. But It it was to •be the' /stud the payment: of cash was wbaf bebtsdelceady province of -the future Committee to enquire bow stated. 1,„ .• . Ministers had ezeici.ed the high discretionary prodete Eon} KING, in explanation slid, he did not mean that had been vetted hi them, the Houle must not en state that the Government were unable to pay delude itself or the comitry,by consenting to go into their debt to the Bank, but. that the- Batik, in the that enquiry upon such information as sbdold be fir event of the issumpli.on of cash .payments, weld he rushed by Ministers themselves : he 'contended that enable to take that mass of Exchequer Bills which the Committee should been poem to -call for ether were tiny in their possession. 7 • 3 evidence, and ezamine ether fact*. He would - not The Earl of LAUDEBDALE, in eamsequence of then go We mob adhesion on the two Reports of . whit had-passed, felt-himself called apon to dem. j last Session, bathe did 'entreat their Lordship% W cute in the stroniget.termit, the (Iquique that the. re- compare these Reposts with the judicial proceedinge 4 s , siol)lion of cash . payments at the 1ia11.14.4 that had followed them, and • thee to itke wfrethbik *as to be delayed 47 the tetgociation of foreign loans. they would slip be so enamoured of Secret Commit. "TILE STATESMAN Was it to he endured that tie Parliament of France, instead of the Parliament of treat Britain._ were to ,„diciatte Aw,..,the,oapt of: Dieted • blir alley lens %to , to reseirte , ;(heir.itatments its cadb ? Was to ike ea. dared that they were tote depindent on any despot of &rope, or on the Legialatons of France, for the decision of the question, whether it was .eapedienc -foe Bank of • England *to resume pal rents le ' specie? He could conceive nothing Inolni digiading! to the country, or iii . Legislature. His Noble • Friend had pot the 'cat! - 14 communication to the' French Legislature, that the Bank of France Cosa not pay Weald', in "aitisequeitie of a loan made ea the account of Englassil, and WOdoubledly such an as seniors. there would be seeded at. England had ob tained loane, and was cap the of prOcuriog loans to a larger amount than all the States of Enrope. could obtain 'credit for, and yet the Bank of France had continued its payments in specie. What then was. there, that because France negotiated a loan in. Pros. ilia or Russia, of a small amount compared with the means of this country, that the Bank of England. should be prevented from resuming its payments in specie ? He begged to be understood as not meaning! CO assert that the Bank of England was enable to re some its payments in specie, because be knew nothing upon the subject ; but if it was intended that the re-; sumption should be delayed, he treated an enquiry would be instituted, so as to embrace all the details of the subject, and all the information that it was possible to procure. If, indeed, it were tree, that the negotiation of foreign loans could preitentoe . Bank of England from resuming its cash payments, it was a secret of the most lamentable nature to the lauded, the commercial, and 'the monied interests of the country. The conversation here dropped. ti Et it ET COMMITTEE. Lord SIDMOUTH reminded their Lordships that he yesterday intimated his intention of proposing that the Papers on the state of the country, which he had laid on the table by the• command of the Prince Regent, should be submitted to the consideration of a Committee chosen by their Lordships. He accord • itsgly now . moved that the Papers be referred to a Secret Committee. * The Marquis of i.ANSDOWNE would not oc cupy much of their Lordships' time; but when it was considered what had been the nature of the early proceedings on the subject to which the Papers pro posed to be referred to a Committee related, be thought it necessary to call the attention of the House to the course now proposed to be adopted by the Noble Secretary of State. He thought their Lord jtees as Se ir satisfied from ftrodocd a Attila, Report : he eat whether such a Report 'gr., derail *oddity' more than a solemn irliddilso &die& whatever could resign _ __ : _.criuntry it large.' The Noble Lord hail referred to the pre etainf Or ROI 4 thillifilamideet led to *BAH of . Int domniff.kkiift,ho-iiits.of power exercised by Minis r - s;' but Olio till' he tintl sees and heard, after all Wmisters bed pledged themselves to "Wore; netlike ' uumbecof verdicts they had subsequently recovered ; —[ l] —after it had todly stated hil Er that a but too great real ethat the served 'use /soot had. them s excited the disturbances that half occurred, he -thought"that be fore they passed such a Bill they ought to be well satisfied, whether ail the sets of inserrection proved, (and there were none proved but at Derby) were not attributable to this very agents employed by Minis ters. If their Lordships should be content, on a secret enquiry, completely to indemnify Ministers for all that had passed, sad by that means preClude all those who had been . Injured in forruns health, and character, who had languished in dungeons; or groaned beneath*/ welight of fetters, from any hope of retrieving their losses, or establishing their chem. ter—if tfreir Lordships should be satisfied to • give such an indemnity es should exclude these victims of power from all redress of their wrongs—if their Lordships should act thus, they would not do their duty to themselves or to their country. He would enter into the subject no further et that time ; the question would be more fully discussed in the pro ceedings on the Committee; but he must enter his caveat againt instituting an enquiry on the conduct of Ministers upon any mere shoeing of their own, and making theta at once their own accusers, witnesses, aad judges.—[Hcar, hear I] ' The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, the only ques tion was, to refer these Pipers to a Committee, ac cording to the invariable usage of the House. That Committee would determine as to them should seem enpedient, and it would then be for the House, on receiving the Report, to deal withlt as they should think proper. As to giving powers to the Committee as suggested by the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne), it was clearly contrary to the constant practice of the House, which differed in that respect from the House of Commons. There was no precedent in their Lord ships' House for empowering a Committee to send (or persons, papers, and records; the practice Sias, for the Committee to apply to the House to order the attendance of whatever witnesses they thought necessary, or to direct whatever papers were thought requisite to be laid before them. As to the saner. lion that the Bipeds of the Committees had been fal sified, he had to state, in the first instance, that in `that House the Committee were unanimous in their it. I 'wort, and that in the other House ibe Committee here unanimous In their Report upon the evidence, though some of them differed as to the expediency of impending the Habeas Corpus Act : and in the 'second, so far from the Reports been falsified, a Grand Jury at Derby bad found a Bill of Indict. talent for High Treason against 36 individuals; all of 'whom were either convicted, or complitely eonfessed their guilt. He was at a loss to conceive any objec tiou to referring these Papers to a Committee, such 'baying been the constant usage of the House. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in explanation, stated, that he bad made uo objection to the motion, Ant had merely pot it, whether, under all circum stances, it would not be more advisable to give the enquiry a more extended form. If, by the result of their Lordships' determination, a door should not be open to information from all quarters, and to the in. terests of all parties, the enquiry would probably be not satisfactory to the House, and certainly out to the country. - The Earl of CARNAR VON in explanation, said, he bad net asserted that die trials for High Treason bad falsified the Reports of last year, but that they bad not borne them out ; and if the Committee were to make out a case on such documents as Ministers only should lay before it, the result could be no other than a Report such as Ministers might send forth! without any Committee at all. The motion was then agreed to, for referring the Papers to Committee of Secrecy, to consist of eleven Lords, to be chosen by ballot. The ballot to take place on Thursday, at five o'clock. 'Adjourned till Thursday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. SWANN presented a Pmition from some Anomie' and Solicitor in the County of Cornwall, complaining that pennon acted as Conveyancers without having been educated in the pro fession of the taw, or paid those stamp duties which regular ' practitioners had been obliged to pay. r • PAPERS PRESENTED. . I Accounts were presented of the Sams received by the Com missioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, and applied by Mein; and of the quantity of Stock transferred to them in the last year. Mr. Brow Otte Keeper of Newjate, prowled ichoesis tie Number of Pei soas under sentence of DMIL, MAIM -thourat. Which they bad been convicted,. ' * blr. BENNETT. in moving that the paper be pedaled, whited to %now when* Council would probably be hell to receive the Recorder's Report Lord CA 4 TLEREAGH said, that it would probably be held atau early day. • DROPPED ORDERS. The SPEAKER. alluded to this subject, as there was no House on Monday. Lord CASTLEREAGH wished to call the atten tion of the House to a subject of which all must fees the importance. There could be bat one opinion as to the usefulness end the merits of the Committee on Filmes last Session. Their activity and fidelity in the mention of their duties were exemplary. The general view and scope of their enquiries into the state and management of public affairs were conduct. ed in the' true spirit of their parliamentary instruc tions. They had presented sia laborious and inde fatigable Reports. The chief object was toinvestigati the public business, and au,' affairs of the country, so as to see what offices in the 'different departments of public importance could be reduced or abolished.— They had gone through thedepattments of the Army, the Navy, and the Ordnance ; they had mode clear, and perspicuous, and just Reports, nailed with obser. stations of a useful nature, end which woeld be found very beneficial in the future cOnsiderati,ons of Podia. meat, which would thereby be better enabled to square, and meet with ditferewt opinions. 'toss his duty to propose only Whitt 'was the duty of Govern ment ; no did he vdsh to go into the subject in --- !: 1