The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-22 00:00:00

- . . . Seed satisfied before. He was the more zealous in the ranee low, as formerly he had been strongly 'polled to theft'. Considering the American oat to be of the most unjust that ever this country was engag , in, he had one time thought these persons almost de terred the hardship, to which they subjected them . sitiffn ; but We as he approved of their condutt. he. would not have exposed them to a fiftieth part of the gtiefebuseol which they had now endured. He denied that the !MAW granted to them in Ifill, had been reeeived ho these Gentlemen in satisfaction of their ...claim*. Of the sufferings of the parties he had been ofiness. In one conversation that be had had with oae• of the applicants, he could not help saving he :wondered that their patience had held out so long— the snivel .wbieh he received was, "Sir, there have heel several suicides among us already." He would Itesse the Noose to judge what their state must be to reduce them to inch acts of desperation. • • MC WILBERFORCE expressed his hope, that some compensation would be afforded to that patty of the claimants at West, who had sacrificed every thin( which they possessed in the world in the support of the cause of their mother country. If there were men echo had drank to the dregs of that bitter cup of, hope defeated, which makes the heart sick," it was • those who had for a lengthened period of time been ' tortured with the uncertain expectation of being re leased from that misery into which their more honour able and zealous conduct plunged them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt as *deb as any Honourable Member, the peculiar bard ships add misfortunes which pressed upon the indivi duals who preferred these claims. It was a part of • the unpleasant duty of men in office, that they were • compelled to a more rigid examination of claims ad t' *tweed upon the public purse, than would be generally •. o huggested by free and liberal sentiment.—(Neer, hear.) -1 he case which had been made nut by his Honourable Friend, the Member for Exeter, was see, than which, nothing in the whole course of his' olleisi life had been to him a source of greater pain. The claims of the American loyalists had never been lost sight of, although the length of time that had • elapsed since They originated, he was willing to admit must have added by suspense, very much to the suffer 11l of those unfortunate indivitlnals. lie thought the time was arrived when some finsl decision ought to be come to, whether they should have compensation toot. He never could have oppmed the claims ' upon the ground that compensation had already been • granted. He never considered that to be the fact, a;o1 therefore he never could have said so. Ile did ' Olin!: that his Honourable Friend had over-argued tiAe care, fur be surely could not mean to argue that 11. e American loyalists could n iw claim a coinpenss con to the full extent of their losses. The Right lionouratic Gentleman then alluded to the conduct of tl.e Unites! States with regard to the claimants. In some cases British debts had been allowed by that r:.)veritntent, and the refusal to grant the just demands of the loyalists was a flagrant violation of the agree taent by which that government was bound. But that refusal and that breach of faith was not confined to the loyalists, for many British merchants had been left iu the same predicament with themselves. l)ebts t ► thl amount of 1,150,000/. were recognised and allow ed, 450,411i0/. of which went to the loyalists. The American States agreed to admit the bona fide claims of all creditors, upon condition that Great Britain should restore some of the territories which slit then rnssessed. The loyalists' was to be included among t. ese claims, according to the understanding which he (Hoe Chancellor of the Exchequer) had upon the subject. 'this was a most important point, and deserved Wen- Con. Either his Honourable Friend had been greatly misinformed upon it, or he bad. It was certainly tree, • that the interests of the American Loyalists were pro v:tleil for ty the Treaty of 1791, as well as those of the British inerchauts; . and lie was of opinion that these .could not afterwards be separated from them. It was true, as his Hon. Friend had stated, that the American Attornev-General had objected to those claims, and that founded his arguments against them upon the tenor '• of the declaration of independence. He said that the .s-.vareignty of the I liked States commenced as soon as • the decl.L.ation of independence took place, and that, otter that declaration, any person continuing to reside .I. MIN the States, received the protection of their laws, an., was no longer a British subject. The Loyalists ' vontemled, on the contrary, that they continued to he ,l'ie subjects of his Majesty until he hail ratified the .'t'reaty, wherein the independence of the United States as.recognizeol. The Right Hon. Gentleman expressed his willingness to agree to the production of the papers :CiTled for by his lion. Friend, but observed, as he did r.ot think that the case of these claimants could he se ► sparated from that of the other British Merchants, and it agreiine to the motion, he should reserve to himself ;the ri,elit of opposing any future measure which might he founded upon them. Fly the Convention of 1t1412, a 'f,,rthet Wm of 600,0001. had been given to the British Government on account of general in which the — Loyalists had also shamed. But, said his lion. Friend, litey did not admit their share of that 600.000!. to be a compensation for their losses. Neither, he could tell tin; the British Merchants. They had since that • lied been continually urging their claims upon the t. He felt as much as any Twit in that House - far the unfortunate case of individuals who had some of thent.hled, and.all suffered to the greatest degree, in sup porting 'because of this countrn and no man would more seedily secede to ant proposal fur bringing their case laelmerthe Hens, hit. the purpose of coming to a final deeieles won't what it was requisite and expedient should be dose in their behalf. • 'Or.•PHILIAMORE thought that the case of the America. LoYelists stood apart from the case of any . other. set of men, and that it stood before the House halve the strictest cases.' of justice that ever came imiarniti :Their case stood upon distinct and sepia, rate grounds front that 'of all other claimants. The American Loyalist' left hti home and every t hung be. to inyt to him. of embark his all in our cause. Hie oiodeet was noticed. seen in the speech from the Ow at the sinte r sod the Howse re-echoed the sae tintrats it contained. . These claims ought to be 110 1 / 1 114164 up* jattica, upon law, and upon pubis right Mr. LOCKMAItt Wisbed fo 'ask, whether these claimsata acre,, pampas who ha settled in America with iliac. **Oa carried. ilroin this country—still to the King. and lsoeives of speculation and could pot eee why their frtim those of other Bri .were persons who had ,tbst smutty.. sad mast- And eastilkist each pro loyalty: sod • stiegiases. • • • owing a latanniaav alkiriairee siteraly goings-oat: /Tata 'motive' t prolpeedwipalis':4l mi. lie cot claims ilitimil . ljie viviii aced folio Mil rotekitilt • -flit it 'tlity.er 8114 . 144 4 A blithl 1 4, l as 6 l. toylike Per.V. %slide: . - iej ' 1 . .... -•• -`• - ''' x.' . - ' .. . f 1 11 1 , \ . _ --•- greatest 7 _____ __- claimants were exattl). is that siltation wbtab Ito had last described. The motion was then agreed to. MALT TAX. • Mr. WESTERN rose, purintant to notice, to Mote for the repeal of the late additional Malt Tax, and ansintaismd that epos every consideration of feeling:, juslice, and policy, that motion ought to be agceed to, or no tax existed which wgs so injurious to the comforts of the people or to the interests of alricell tare. He protested against the idea generai.y held oat, that soy ►llcmber who called for the repeal of a tax was bound to propose a substitute, for that would imply that lie rho' discovered the oppression or injus tice of a tax, waa : not entitled to complain, unless he were dispord to become a second Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose peculiar duty it was to provide for the financial exigencies of the country. Hut he the more objected to this idea, because he was an advocate for the redaction of the aggregate amount of taxa tion, lie wished it, however, to be distinctly under stood, that he did out desire this reduction, by the exemption of the azriculturists, or any particular class, from the general l►ressu►e. Ile was nut .one of ,those who would tax the funds for the support of the poor's rate, ur who would recommend tiny violation of the faith pledged to thepublic creditor. Thi amount of the poor's rate e , ,is undoubtedly a subject requiring the attention of Parliament: bat he would nut em barrass his present obje► t by any reference to that subject. The purpose of his motion U 45, to produce the removal of a tax, ocouA oppressive in its operation and in consequence comparatively unproductive to the Reveeue. In order to sliew that the tax was nupro ductivc, the lloilent-able Gentleman entered into a comparison of the Tax upon Malt, the Growth of Reeky, and the extent of Produce and Consumptiun from the year 1791 flown to the present day, shriving that in Englamil, Ireland, and Scotland, the proel►tce of Barley, and the Consumption of Malt had dimi nished, as the tax upon the latter had been advanced. Hence heconybided, that this branch of the Reveline bad been egregiously tuisn►anaged.—The fallowing is the Honourable Member's statement, as well as we conld contrive to collect it : . Average Consumption of Malt of Kin.• Years, commencing 1791: Bushel:, England 47.673,917 heollaLd Ireland 4,846,31,11 Total .......34.401,473 Average Consumption of Ten Years. commencing IFBt, after the high Dulles put on it in IMO 2 and 1803. by which the Duty wag increaed truss 104. bd. per quarter to 345. Bd.:— England •23. taO.O2S Scotland Irelaud Total '27,•26:.4,35ti Average Consumption of Four Years, commencing 1819: — England 2",(1tAi.091 Scutlead Ireland .. 1.707,3 A T.itnl V3,3:i3,363 Besliels. Del Weft" or fallinz , )ff iu the first puriod. Average of Ten Years 7,111.1:11 Second period of Four Years 0,02),190 Add. then, to the falling- ott. what ought to be an increase. front an increase of population of two millions . • • • 5.53 1.75'.1 Total.. 1 0 )i4,!:53 Or, 1,8e1.7145 Qivartrm He thought sonic means might be found to remedy the evil of excessive importation, without infringing 111,mi the spirit of the Art of Isls. As to the speculative opinions which had been broached upon the subject of free trade, Gentlemen might, in his (Mr. Western's) opinion, as well tall: of the abstract rights of man as of the abstract rim iples of free trade. To consti tute a free trade, the British agriculturist must pos sess the same advantages as the foreign grower ; but if he started with such a load as the aggregate amount of taxation in this country, while the foreign grower laboured under no such disadvantages, this was any thing hot a free trade. Another great ssurce of pre-- sure upon the agriculturist, and i tired %v on all classes of the eonininnity, was, the operation of the Act passed in 1%!9, vulgarly called l'eel's Dill. fle was aware that it would be considered almost profane in that House to call in question the wisdom of this measure; but without impeaching the it isdoin of the Act, or the abilities of the perilous uho advised it, he must he permitted to de-lare his firm conviction that it would never be a permanent Act. He called upon the House, as it regarded the principles of justice anil policy, and as it valued the prosperity and morals of the country, to agree to the measure which he had the honour to propose. Ile concluded by moving. 11/r the repeal of so much of tie Act passed in the 5 1 .0 th year of the reign of hi. late Majesty, entitled, An Art, &v. as related to the imposition of an additional dnty of Is. -Id. per bushel upon British malt ; and so munch of another Act relating to Ireland as imposed an ad• ditional duty of 4s. per barrel upon Gish malt." Mr, MACKENZIE, to whom Mr. Ellice gave way, in seconding the motion, disclaimed any ti isli to shift any undue share of the bin-them of the country upon any class of the community ; but he WAS t•s! i.fird that the tax in question prosscil upon the airricultiir ist to an extent which most eventually dry imp his re sources. The tax :s• it affected Seotlawl had ref:oh:red & great portion of the barley grown in that country unserviceable; and it had consequently h CI) applied fur the purposes of inept! The Scottish barley was a quality inferior to that of English bar ley, and therefore conld no: bear the duty. The duty was in fact greater than the value of the barley, and be considered no other fact necessary to shew the jus tice of the present motion. The deficiency in the quantity of prodectice barley, had not even yet reach ed its bead, for under the present law, the distiller was.taxed, not what he distilled in the present year, but what he 'night have distilled upon comparison with the lad year. The Hon. Member complained of the iystem, which he said prevailed, of imposing taxes at this end of a Session, without any inquiry, and with out any reference to the Members of that part of the country likely to •be affected ivy those tsars. He fir , tented the House to sauefon the. present :option: He spoke he believed the Ililliall191111•Vilial of fife lls~: . saying. trO aning L overturn the bat an imp. s could britg the. Magistrates ti.) enforce the tHear, hear.)—He spoke in the presence of Hod. Members from that part of the country. If his state , meat were erroneous, be called upon theta to correct him, and if it was justified by the fact, he bad a right to call upon them to support the present motion. —(Cheers.) Mr. BUICE said, that in rising immediately after his Honourable Friend (Mr. Western) he had eon wish to interfere, with the Hon. Gent. who had just sat down; his object was to state the groandsupon which lie was disposed to support the motion, and which differed considerably from some of those advanced by his Honourable Friend. In the present distressed state of the country, lie conceived that it had a right to look for assistance to the Sinking Fund, as far as the amount of that fund could give relief. The House ought to look at the relief of the present dig► tress liv such an appropriation of that fund, as a proof of the good which the country might expect la derive in future from an efficient sinking fund. There was no b.ipe of relief from economy on the part of the Government while the present system of collect ing the revenue continued. Would the House bee lieve that the Custouis and Extise duties, which in 1507 amounted to 33 or 34 millions (only about 10,000/. less than the amount of the present year), were collec►ed at an expense of only 1,100,0001., and that the expense of collection this year was so less than 2,1011,000 L ?--(llcer ) Since his Honourable Friend had clearly made out that the taxation bad re• duccil the consumption, there was an undeniable proof that this tax was excessive and injurious ; and therefore, he should vote for the repeal of it. With regard t.• the act of 1813, lie thought that the Coin mittee now sitting above stairs would do more good by counselling the entire repeal of it, than those gen tlemen had done who passed it. Before the farmer could go on, not only his taxes, but every part of 'his expenses must be rut dome ; and then came another party whose interests were involved—he intant the landlords, for whom it would be visionary to hope for any relief. They must suffer—bitterly must they suffer—fur the support which they had given to tiovertiment—(hear, 'hear wasting the reef:turves of the nation in a tieedle:,s and ruinous War. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that instead of following Honorable Members in the great variety of topics which they had thought fit to introduce in the course of this discussion, he beg to call the attention of the House to the question imme liately before them. lie should first consider the 'effect of the additional duties imposed in 1819, as a financial measure, awl Claim proceed to examine the •rounds upon which the Hon. Member for Essex con teiiileil that the measure had been attended with in jurious consequences to the agricultural classes of the ,ro 1111 l 'unity. When the Hon. Member stated that the produce of the tax on Malt hail been diminished be the additional duties imposed in 1819, he had by mu means accurately stated time accounts before the House. The first inference which he (the Clisticegor of the Exchequer) should draw from the accounts laid on the Table of the House was, that the repeal of the War Ditties on Malt in Om Iti, did not relieve the agriculture of the century, which he should prove by an argument of the same nature as that of the Hon. Member, for he ...hould slow , that the repeal of those duties did not in crease the consumption of Malt in the succeeding years. 'I lie avcrage quantity of Malt between July, 1 is If), when the duties were taken off, and Jule, Ift 19, when a considerable part of those duties were reim posed, was less than 22,900,0011 bushels ; whereas, in the three 'preceding years, it amounted to 26,M;9,000 bushels, sit that there was a diminution of upwards of 3,000,1101) bushels, after the tax was taken oil. But if the Repeal of the tax had out the effect of increasing the consumption, neither had the reimposition of it the effect of producing ally further diminution of con sumption. On the contrary, since 1 s 19, there has been an increase of 1,2110,000 bushels. 'I he quantity of beer consumed he a large portion of the community was for the most part so uniform, that a moderate fit etuatiou in the price of Barley did not materially affect the amount of consumption. Fr a computation which had het mm made, it appeared that the rtrong beer brewed within the last year, exceeded by .111,11011 barrels the average of die three years before. lie maintained, that the Malt Duty fell not upon the farmer, but upon the coi 1111 l unite at large—(mar, bear,)—and if this po sition was clearly establish , d, as he contended it was, he would appeal to any Hon. Member, whether any tax could he mule equal's- levied upon the MASS of the people? The Right ilon. Mem , r next adverted to the arguments urged by an Hon. Member (Mr. Mac kensie) w its respect to the operation of the Malt Tax in Scotland, and contended, that nu unfair proportion of the NI had been raised from that country ; he could uot therefore consent to any partial diminution of the Malt Tax with respect to Scotland. It war argued that the Malt Tax tended to encoum age illicit distilla tion in Scotland. lie was nut in possession of time de tails of Excise Duties in Scotland duriM the lass year, but he was nut aware that any general diminution had taken place in the distillation of spirits. There might, uerliaps, have been a partial diminution, but if so it i-ruse from another cause. Some persons had attempt ed to, distil from raw grain, from which, of course, a wmuh less quantity of spirit could be had than from so equal quantity of malted grain. Righ Honour able Member after some further observations, conclud ed by opposing the moti , in. _ _ Mr. iiacat.nzie and the CHANCELI,OI: of the En tEql!Zß mutually explained. Lord A HAMILTON pointed out shortly the severe hardships which the increased Malt Duty imposed upon the. Landholders of Scotland. It wu unfortu nately diseavered that a small portion of laud in the neighbourhood of Edinburgh we equal in its produce to good English laud, and therefore the whole pro duce of Sootlatnl was taxer! equally with the produce of the must fertile lam! in England. The Noble Lord coucluded by supporting the motion. Lord ti SORIA CAVENDISH said. he should sip. port the motion, because he conceived its success would tend MOM than any other measure to relieve the agricultural Interest. With reference to the speech of Ids Use, Friend (21r. Ellice) be was ►appy that *Mnet they spared span the grounds, yet their votes tbai it glrt wombd be is support of the p :st,r l e t st u . a b i n i t ti i v t d: l n a u s s, 6 pe ns. rit rit a ry s,. k t ir:owit ; hat manufacturing and commercial interests rould (p s , a vulgar phrase) manage to keep their bead s s h e ; water; but the agriculturists would certainly hom e. ed without relief, and for that relief he.ftad m i te , tip measure proposell• this wight.—(Hear, heat4,4l would ask any one to look at tl:e burtheuslrhish been sustained by the landholder and tbensay sd iss i n it was possible he could support his reseal difin s ki to The 'fax under dismsion did n o t, Wi* • • fdi tit equally, and lie therefore should supparkthe araisk. Mr. WODEHOUSE obs•rved that, upon Ak a eiple of this tax, there cuuld he but one opinion. It would not only ;lave a petniciens effect 'tall* losti , of the people, but destroy the cultivation 0 . 6 4 . e ver y f r i en d to agrieul:me was highly" ind e i lle 4 the Number for Essex forbrin:” ; the quisti oo h e r w , the House. One Hater : Al to be cm a'Ale r • tut the question, who was suffering: under m at 4 4 , 1 it this moment? It was undoubtedly the Aids', land Party. Nothing could justify the ;thulium 's: m .ol'li Agricultural Interest. T:acy had a ctaisi.ap o t k, eqnsitteration of Parliament whenever the exige sr , their ease was stated. Au Floe. MPtalter,spakis„„t the Agriculturists, had descrihed ti:ent as tin bailed interest, subservient to the tiovernment atA rrssetr. Political courtesy might hare induced 1614 . 4 1 ; i. her to use a terns less objectitntable, lan ha saki meet it with absolute contradiction. Illefa m M . s subservient, but independent. Ile at tie* *awe ti ts begged to disclaim any censor^ of tits Adverting to the distrease • of agriculture, Iteekserrei, that any diz)usitiiin to unierrrte milt distr ess wo o, he delusive. Tlier.• never was a time when in large districts of the kingdom was in too venial t situation. The exertions of the Magistrates,* yeti manes had warded off the evil, hut if relief 10 sr , soon afforded, Magistrates would hare to cad Al p s persons fur ant thing to give.e maintenance of the po or , 0 0 00 longer Mr. ELLICE in explanation said, he 144'..055d 3 tern in the heat of argument which he wishedle hni not used..--(llear, hear), on the contrary, he nud e sisous of speaking in respectfal tertus of the lade' i uterest. Mr. 11(N.ME `UM ER, in a short speech, tinned the accnracy of so►ne of the statements mace by the Chancellor of the Ewliequer, bn• defe bi l e d the late war, whet Is he described as harinz had tht support of the people. Never had any mar het ono: c complete•ly- popular sine• man was a pugnarioits animal.—(A laugb.)--The Pouraisrabla lie►xkttoo eluded by exp;cssitig his determination to sopped the motion under all the circumstances of the case. Lord FOLKESTONE. sanorted the mutios, bit said he did nut c incitle in all the topics introduce/ by the Honourable Member for Essex. Ile old set agree with him in the proposition, that taking off deo tax would relieve Agriculture only. He tloongbt m ust e urea would he benefited by a repeal of the too, and therefore he should support it. Distress n. not confined to one class of the community but al. With respect to the cause of that distress, it movie possible for the country to go on paying the Interest of the public debt. in some cases it migld be a matter of justice to break faith with time pub :c tor. Ile thought it right to state his bentiostot cwt that head fairly. Mr. lIUSKISSON, in 3 long and able speech, o i • posed tile argument of the Noble Lord who had evinced a disposition to break in upon the good faith of Parliament. The Ilouse had been called on fur the purpose of Public Credit to inrrcase the taxes. A ra. solution was adopted t., that effect in 181 9, and Ike house in the present irtstatoce would consider whether a change had taken place to render it necessary to n• peal four fifths of the sum a Committee had arntesol to the ineonio of the country ? The produce of the tat proposed to be repealed was 2,0110,111/111. The S ble Lord appeared to think the best mode of pre serving public faith, was breaking it. The Memher for Coventry hail said, it would be desirable to have Do Sinking Fund, but the (louse would no doubt fed that it was honourable to diNeharge the public etigagctiwub. There was 110 commercial country that was not efforts for the reduction ol their national debt. Ike tlesuen were in error when they said that agriceltoral distress was increased by the Mak Tau. The Right Honourable Member then enocred lido a statement of the areraars, and proved that the tax had nut operated against the gross era of Barley. The tax fell eleallY on the commoners of the article. When he beard it said, that all classes of the community ware in elfrrate distress, lie was di-posed to ascertain how far 'hat as sertion was 1114411, out. Here he reviewed the stall of time different classes, and gave a iiractical illusnatioa that their situat• was not worse than that which fu rei,rn countries buffered sender The present distraisei could not he attributed to taxation. In the United States of America, where there was no taxation, the same distress was to he found. In America there had been a depreciation of currency. . A report made to Congress on the distresses and difficulties of that coin.- try, dated the roth January last, stated that the said distresses enumerated were co eeeee ion in the history of nations in a state of peace. There was a monitor? of persons who took too gloomy and desruding a view of the state of the casuistry. Ile was satisfied, that if the !eonntry was enable,' . to maintain good faith, a nal to 'disentangle itself from that system of trade which tended only to disable the country, he was convinced that'all our dithenhics would disappear. The couatce had passed the first stroggle, and there was nothing le fear, except from their applying remeilie. whisk 're." sure to defeat the cool in view. With this view of toe subject, he must say that be thought nothing s •osid nmre prejudicial ihan the p rese nt pmpositiou. Right Nonaurable lientlenian concluded by morieg ths previons iiirestion —((.oast cries of "Question. ) Mr. WILBERFORCE aililressed the Hesse is a low tone of voice. We understood him to " ' port time motion for a repeal of the Malt Tax. Be 2 0 14 that it was necessary to support Goverment la enable them to retrieve the affairs of the eonntry, but at the saute tints he arsoglit they might not to lay any burthrom on the country which were not absolate necessary. They might to beware sod remember. that 1/1, possession of t le g,iod will sod heart of the nation, war. in this country the most valuable they could have, and if there was too great taxatiga .no occasion slmuld be allowed to pass without lighter lug it. M. MONO( delivered his sestheests in Earmuff the original motion, ansidot repeated tees of tlie lia t He thought that as . the root rat of the country wr minisheal time taxes, that hardens ought to be docill°' es' in something like time same propora•a• • Mr. 1.11171.111 . 0 N intruded on the tim e of " ill f tM Hun,e to state Lis reason fur voting is favor ° f 5...:: . THE STA AN. . a l th e t o u -be ortainly4baseglas them entitledOs ellimAlisa4 ° r ate Isos y t e rg ilanci jare r !" , ise 01 4 ' llir. 'reItIRTENAt replied. In answer to the that it threatened to 4 question from the lion. Member for OziurA, he cook try; and pet *oasis/ de- assure him with the greatest satisfactien, that the*, could brihg the . Mal Hmlloollo.loo l lklinrjr4unosms i thii tar MK diarly pi:- motion. .gig-to such an extent. other is r % ' - T 1'