The Statesman. — London, England, 1823-03-05 00:00:00

would pledge himself t.ot to waste three hours in open leg the question.--(A laugh.) The petition was thenordered to be printed. TITHIAN IRELAND. Mr. HUME, in rising to bring under the consider a'.on of the house, the creation of Irish tithes, said lie had been led to undertake the task, not from any con sciousness of his ability to di.charge it properly, but be cause no other Member had come forward who viewed the question in the same light with himself. He had, therrf .r ore. to claim the indulgence of the house, if he oc • co pied for some time their attention in hying before them the details of this important question. He might, perhaps : be told that the time chosen for bringing for e and this question was unsea.onahle and premature; that he ought to have waited until Ministers should have brought foruard some reposition on the subject; but . this was only a continuance of the notice which he had given last Session, which he pledged himself to bring forward early in this, and which he had delayed hitherto, sti . order to secures as full an attendance as possible of lush Members to give their opinions upon it. There fore, if Ministers acre disposed to anticipate him by any 'masa . re of their own, they bad ample time hitherto to bring it forward. Having then cleared away some „preliminary objections, be should now proceed to the statement of his ca'e. The first thing to be done before sal iii{ upon the house to agree in any of his proposi tions,i was to come to a right understanding of the mean . .eg of a word, very popular, but to which different sign' . Lations were attached. The word he meant was . " Chords." They bad often heard the words " Church ;yid State" joined together, but what the precise mean ing of the former was, standing alone, remained yet to be discussed. The acceptations of the word most popu lar were these? first, that it meant the clergy; secondly, that it meant the community at large—that is, such of the community as attended the same houses of worship, and entertained the same religious opininns. Those who cu fined its meaning to the mere walls of a building vete few in nunib , r, and not very respectable for their autho rity. He would now state which of those definitions be ttought most plausible. Referring bark to the highest and most ancient authority, lie was himself inclined to adopt the second description. St. Paul, speaking to dif fer at nations, calls them " Churches," clearly using the word to signify the community at large, and not the preachers. In this sense he would use it; and the.more the subject was considered, the more was the conclusion ..earranted, that the " Church" meant a congvegatieon of persons professing the same creed, and frequenting the same places of worship. His first posioion then was, that the Church of Ireland was a co-amunity placed in contradistinction to the pieople at large; his second, that this establishment had no precept—no authority in Scripture; that it was a cre.eture of the law, set up by the Legislature—deriviag all its authority and all its property from its eretictinente, and consequently that as the Le gislature :tested it, so the Legislature could either alterits coeotitution or annul it altogether. If such, then, age the nature of the Church Establishment in Ire the next consideration was as to the grounds upon Watch that establishment was first set up, and how far its yr! sent state was suited to theviews which originally pre. loaded respecting it. It was clear that the idea of a Church Establishment was first suggested by the neces ntty of setting apart a set of men who should devote their attentions to the duties of religion—be the depositaries and interpreters of truth-e-and the source from whence religious instruction was to be diffused throughout the community. The performance of these duties, as it was inconsistent with an attention to more ordinary. affairs, ' required adequate compensation from the public, and itb that view, a particular species of support was allot ted to the clergy. . If in the course of his observations he should make any allusion to that proprrty, he hoped he would not be told that the property of the Church was beyond the reach of the Legislature, as being ante cedent to, or coeval with the state itself. This bedeviled in torn. For the Church Establishment of this country had no antecedent property, as all its property was de lived to it from another—the Catholic Church. The right of the Legislature then to alter the iroperty of the Church could no longet be tailed into question, since it ' had before Interfered in traqsferring the property of the • Catbotc to the Established Church., But it was said that a great part of this property was granted by laym•ii to the. Church, for the service of religion. this also was not true in its full extent, for much of the property derivable to the Church, from lay benef-ctions was in tended originally for charitable purposes, though subse quently misapplied by the Clergy. Again, it might be said, that it was the private property of the incumbent. This he denied altogether; it bore no analogy whatever to such property. True it was, that private property was held by law, and so was the property of the Church. But there was this difference; if an individual held lands a:cording to law, his heirs would inherit them, and np Legislature could interfere with the regular descent, less the right was forfeited by attaint of blood. If that was the case then, how could Church property be com pared with that of an individual? But the fact of this property being taken awry from an individual clergy- I man, who for misconduct of any sort was unaorthy of Lie calling, wens in itself a proof that the property of tl"! Church was not e oalienabl... By that r.agAn!itg the Bi shop of Cleo:511 u. r had as wit inoperty in his living as euturol had to his estate, and yet he was tieprived of it. lie (Mr. II.) was not to he understood now as arguing against the revenues of the Bishopri cks; what he contended against was th e principle. His position then was that all Clergymen were paid for doin g certein duties, and if they did not perform these duties they were not entitled to their pay. It was well known that, at the Reformation, there were no sinecures ; that there was no clergyman who did not perform his pastoral du ties on the spot. Since the lieformation7sonce those tey* of parity, as they were now called—it was that Buse abuses erect into the church which were now so Wildly complained of. It was since that t ime that those men entrusted with the curs of souls, as it was called, Vegan to live at Bath, Cheltenham, and Rome, whilst they were paid for performing deli , . in Ireland. He would show that the places which he had mentioned, w e re filled with Irish C l e r gy; an d that, as they did not perform any duties a • cording to the original intention of the or ler, they were no longer entitled to remunera tion. There was no difference between clergymen and any other cl ss of public s• r v ants—ln the army and navy. Each .lass had separate duties to perform, and each receiied commensurate rewards. But what would the hou e sly, if officers in the army held the language now used by menibers of the Church ? if they appealed against any interference on the part of the Legislature, onthe ground diet their pay was the ir property in perpe• tnitv, the Legislature %%could nut tolerate an opposition to diem on such grounds. The army at one time, too, enjoyed the same s,rt of property which theChurcb now t ssess.d; for under the Feudal S y stem . each soldier was ailoted a Fortiori of load fur his own supprt, and that of hie forowers. With the Feudal System, however, the Soldiers claims to this property vanished. Was it not the coineuu course for Perliament to interfere where tt'ere was ,a ae.easity for any amendment, and by enalting lens to counteract abuses wh e r e ve r the y occur red Who should the Church he exempted ? What wa. the diffe e;o e between the individuals a.tacheel to that institution and any other Body of the community? He hell it to be undeniable that time property row vested in lte Church was not appropriated tor the support of A. 11: or C. bat for the maintename of that religion which sloe Parliam-nt hat decreed should be the established re ' keen of the coontry. The question which be wished to Rave the House cowiler was, whether the property was too large or too small; if too small, let it be increased— TUE STATESMAN if too large, why should it not be diminished. There were precedents for Parliamentary interference •a ith Clinreh property. He wobld ask the Right Honourable the Attorney General for Ireland, in reference to certain principles winch he laid down in the last Session, how he could account for the passing of so many Acts since the time of Henry intetfering with Church property? — Had they not given in the Land Tax Acts powers to sell Church property ? He would not waste the time of the House in proving that the power of alienating Church propert y was recognised by Parliament on different occa sions. The Parliament once, in its wisdom, changed the established religion of this country from Catholicism to that of the Protratant faith, with ell the paraphernalia of Deans and Chapters, and Preieends, &c. As they t.ltered the religion ones, there was no doubt hut they might do so again. —(A laugh). —Yes, Gentlemen might laugh, but, with the consent of his Majesty—(a laugh)—the louse mig ht again chance the Keltgion of the State. — Those utfo laughed because he subjoined the consent of his Majesty, ought to remember that he formed one branch of the Legislature, and his consent was therefore necessary to any alteration of the laws. But suppose the house had resolved on altering the present religion of the country, and selected Quakerism as the fitting religion to 'be pr.f seed by the inhabitants of this realm.—(A Laugh.) Well ; supposing they bad agreed upon that aheration,that that house should be a house of Quakers,. and the majo rity of the people should tviopt the same persuasion, what would be the consequence? First us all there would be no clergymen. no benefices, no preitendiries, no parapher nalia to maintain. He asked, then, what would become of the freeholds of the clergymen? Could there be a doubt that Government would appropriate them to the use of the public, making the due allowance, of course, for the individuals in possession. He chal lenged the Right Honourable Gentleman to state to the house what was to become of the property of the Church in case the religion of the State was altered to that of Quakerism. But putting the idea of a change of the established religion out of the question, he would put it to the consideration of the houss, whether the persons svhose duty it was to administer the religion to the com munity had acted up to the intentions of the Legislature, or were they more than sufficiently numerous to answer the purposes of religious instruction, so as to become a burden by their superfluity to the people. He seed scarcely to refer to authorities. The late Mr. Grattan expressly stated, that the Church property ought to he distributed amongst those, and those only, who merited compensation, by a le oaring attention to the duties of the Ministry. 'lle late Bishop Watson most decidedly was governed by the same principle, when he proposed to increase the stipends of active clergymen. by appropri ating one-third of all prebenos as they should become vacant. Again, instances have occurred in which the revenues arising from Prebends have been appropriated to the repairs of Cathedrals. What mould the house think, when he informed them, that there were no less than twenty-five acts on the statute book to prevent—what? to prevent Clergymen from robbing the Church thernselves.—(Loud laughing.) —He found in Selden, that it was by no means uncommon for clergymen to sell tithes for ever to lay men. It was this and similar practices that Parliament interfered to prevent by those different statutes. But why refer to authority in such a subject. He appealed to the good sense, the understanding of the house, and would ask them was this Church Establishment too large as compared with the population, and their means of supporting it. He could have wished that there were •suthcient documents in his hands, and that those which he possessed were comprehensive enough to enable him to lay before the house an authentic state of tke Church of Ireland. He regretted very much that the census, which had been partly made of the population, was not complete. However,he believei that he might rely upon the authorities which were within his reach, as to the particulars which he found it necessary to state to the house. He would take the gross population of I relanfl to be 6,800,0001. Let it be divided into fourteen parts. It would be found that the number of those professing the established religion consisted of only one-fourteenth of the whole, or 490,000 individuals! The Protestant Dissenters amounted to another one-fourteenth, the re. maiming twelve-fourteenths bring Catholics!—What was the establishment for the use of this small portion of the population? l'here were twenty-four Bishops and Arch bishops, Deans, Dignitaries, Prebends, Be.e., in number no less than 511. Was this number necessary to super intend the religious instruction of that part of the popu lation intrusted to their care ? He would put this. to the common sense of the house. Let them look to the Church Establishment of any country in the world. Where was there any thing comparable to this in extra vagance? Was it too much then to ask if the church was thus rewarded beyond all precedent? Was it too much to &, - k that th. re might be some reduction—some arrangonent, that would make the reward com.nensurate with the means of the people? Wherefore ilid Parlia ment recline the army? Because to maintain a certain force was unoreessary ; and because it had not too much money to do' so. Why not, on the same principle, reduce the uet:!ess Bishops—useless Prebends ? Why maintain at an enormous expense 500 individual', in luxurious idleness? The country could not now afford to main tain idlei4=khe burdens of the State were too heavy, the times were too critical, to permit so many persons to lead an indolent life at the expense of the industrious, who received nothing in return.—(Bear, hear.) He had no hesitation in giving it as his well-considered opinion, that the services of the Deans and Chapters, Canons and Prebends, might be immediately dispensed with.—(hear, and a laugh.) lie might have formed an erroneous opinion. It often happened that those who thought much upan a particular subject might draw con clusions which experience might not justify. All be could say was, that the opinions which he now submitted to the house were offered upon a most conscientious feeling of their justice and propriety. lie felt that, if Ireland were to he improved, the first and most necessary step was to reform the Church. He might be too sae ;pine; but he was of opinion that the Committee which Le meant to ask for would, if his motion succeeded, and they . proceede I to the necessary inquiries, s oncur in opinions with him, that the Church Establishment of Ire land was too large. He did not pretend that the house should lake his opinions upon trust. All he asked was inquiry. The house would nut act partially. The Le gislature cannot deal out justice to a part only of the community. Pariiament last year reduceil a number of offices, civil and military. See what injustice was done to these individuals. Their emoluments were sacrificed to the interests of the State, whilst rich, beneficed, idle clergymen were allowed to remain in the full enjoyment of their revenues, that ought as justly be converted to the service of the State. Was this justice? What reasonable ground of Exemption did these monopolizers of one tamed wealth lest (oa., that Par;iament should .'inn it as tau Farm: to he toucl.e.t ? I. was imp tssible to come to an exact calculation of the property totjaced by the Bishops. The important secret was 'tot koewn beyond the mystic circle of the Prelates Court ; nut in the absence of au thentic accounts, lie would submit to the house the re sults of the invir;es made by ingenious and laborious travellers in Ire and. lie alluded particularly to the in vestigations of al r.Wokefield, who spent several years in Ireland in a close examiration of the moral and politic: sta;e of the inhabitants of that country, assisted as he (Air. Hume) had reason to know by a gentleman, who was nit now in the house, but bad been one of its oldest Members, and one the test calculated to facilitate inqui ries of that nature (we believe dos Hoeonrable Member alluded to the late Mr. Edgeworth), Sir. Wakefield esti us tied the yowl er of acres in Ireland at 14 millions , Irish or 18 millions English•. The property of tue Church, ac cording to the sante att'hori'y, was equal to two-elevenths of the surface of the whole, cultivated and otherwise. He wished he could state that the Bishops' I Ind were 'he only uncultivated lands in that country. But much date land which now lay wa.te through Ireland was Bishops property, and here, therefore, was a double loss—the ex travagant amount of the Revenues of the Chnrch, and the unproductiveness of a great portion of the soil. lie (Mr. H.) bad reason to confide in the Calculations of this ■n thor, because in all ea.aes where he applied to local resi dents for information, he found his statements fully confirmed by their report. The gektlemen to whom be applied, generally agreed that .Mr. Wak-field's cat , calamine were r.s near. the truth as it was possible to reach without an actual survey of the land.—The wh‘le renal of Ireland, one cure with anathet, ap- pearcd It, be fourteen milliOns some odd thousands. The vropvtion enjoyed by the Church was equal to two. eletenths of the whole, or about 2,500,01.101. The tithes of 1;289 benefices !night be stated at about 5001. apiece ; a moderate calculation, when it was known that some of - them produced 1,0001., 2,0001., and some 3,0001. asyear. But even at this limited computation, the aggregate pro duce would amount to ;00,0001., which, being added to the other item, would give for the Church Establish ment of Ireland, a total of 3,200,0001. per annum. Such, at least, would be the produce realized every year, sup posing the property to be in the hands of those interested in renderlog it productive. Then was the house pre pared to say that this was not too much—were they pre• pared to say that no part of it should be taken away ? He did not stern to interfere with the rights of those in possession. Les due attention be paid to vested rights, as they were sailed; let no man in the enjoyment of his emoluments be disturbed; let the reform be gradual, wi.hout Noting any one in possession, lie begged, therefore, nut to be misunderstood. He trusted that this explanation would save him from the reproaches and abuse which some persons were but too much disposed to lavish upon . the supporter. of such a proposition sta he had now the honour to submit to the house. He was as motions to have the r.al labourers in the vineyard ade quately paid as that those in idleness should be stripped of their unmerited emoluments. But the really active part of the clergy were those the worst paid. He re gretted that he was riot able to produce a document which he could more to have returned on the table at some future opportunity, shelling-the number of curates in Ireland, the number of years they had been engaged in tl.e ministry, and the amount of stipends which they received respectively. Ile expected to slew to the House, from that paper, that a number of respect able and metltorious individuals were employed in per forating those &vies which all the Ministers of religion were supposed to be engaged in, and at what a dispro portionate rate—as compared with their services, or with the emoluments of their snore fortune-. brethren in supe- rior stations—they were rewarded. They would see from this paper what a rare occurrence tine promotion of a cit rate was to an incumbency. He held in his hand a return for two Dioceses, and th-re was only one or two icsraro ces of the elevation PP fa eura'e. The property of the Church, he teed not repeat, was most unequally divided ; for instance, the Primate of Armagh had froru fifteen to twenty thousand pound a year. The land heloneing to his see cal leased out to indi. iduals of his own 1.- mily, or of his friends. The great sources of emolument to tire Bishops were the fines which they received, the land being continued to be let at the old onsolete rent.— lie did not blame the Bishops ;—they did what all other men would do, under similar circumstances —it was bum in nature—but he blamed the Parliament.— They were in the wrong to continote the temptations to corruption. Upon the subject of residence the return were toes imperfect and partial to enable him to say much upon that branch of the question; but it was well known that instead of residing at their benefices, several of the clergy wandered abroad; leaving the duties, which they were so liberally peat° perform, to be discharged by a deputy at a miserable pittance. By a return to the house in 1819, it appeared that in the 1289 benefices, there were 75e residents and 531 non-residents. Without going further into particulars, it was merely necessary to refer to the experience of every Gentleman for a con firmation of the statement, as to the non-residence of the Irish Clergy. He believed that there were few ministers who professed a greater regsrd for the interests of reli gion. lie would put their sincerity to the test. World they permit such an abuse, so injurious to the interests of religion, to continue? lie would refer to the sate of Scotland ; he would put it forward as an itu2Jrant con sideraion fur the house, that the moral habits of that country were as much to be attributed to the residence of her clergy as to any other cause. Ireland was nut now in a worse condition than Scotland (on the ..uthority of Fletcher of Saltonn) had been before the era when the residence of the clergy and schools fur education oere established. Resideme ought to he made a sine qua non. No man could be a friend to Ireland, or to relig•on, who encouraged nowresidence. There was an error in the moral Government of Ireland. Wlren disturbances arose the military was called upon to check them. Those who sought those unhappy remedies might dispense with them, if the. took Out the pains to stop, by easy methods, the evils. ttliive the Irish," said Mr. Ilume, tt the op portunity of rising to the level that surrounded them, and I see nothing in their character to make me suppose that they will nut emerge fro:p a state of degradation, the like of which was only to be met with in Turkey. In no country in the world has the population been so degraded. Poland, I believe, presrws nulling so had. Turkey comes nearest to a resemblance. This is the work of bad Government. See here degradation and barbarity faithfully ~pringin; from a wicked and arttul policy. I cannot here avoid offering the tribute of toy thanks to that estimable association of pernane, who al most at their own expense, attempted to establish schools in Ireland, for the benefit of the population. Had you cherished that people when you insulted and degraded them—had you administered the Government fanny and impertially, ,instead of dividing and perveuring them— had you allowed to flow freely, instead of drying up the sources of improvement, what a different scene would Ireland present ! You would see a people rising in in telligence, gaining strength and si.lidity in every suc cessive age, and maintatning an- equal rank in cultiva tion, in her political and moral conditions, wit:, ukase communities with whom she had a right to be placed upon an equality as to opportunities. When we boast at bei•ig the glory of surrounding nations, what sym pathy hers the Irishman in the triumph? How ills he participated in the bounties of that Constitution whica indie you the admirriti4n of the world!"—(dear, hear.) Alter enforcing the necessity of residence, he would next increase toe stipends of the lower clergy- at the expense of the high-r. No salary should be 1. - mver than LAI. and lie would fix them at various soma from that to 6or 7001. a year. The Hon. M-tuber read a pas sage from Adam Sento, in which that writer coodensus the system of overpaying the clergy. They ought to have sufficient for a liberal maintenance, but not for keeping a style of living which night rend to lessen the sanctity of their character in the eyes of the people. N ver was on obiervation more justly applicable to the Eeclesiaqieal state of Ireland. In whatever arrange ments be propose.l, utility was always the object. Was not somenring 'strong in a system which permitted so many &louses as this? In the Diocese of Waterford and Listuore, the resident Rectors and Vicars were IS ; fire number of nor-reticles:is was 32. He could not too often i.seulcate upon the House the enormous amount of the • Church property in Ireland, as compared with the popu . lotion and its means. The incomes of the !Nations were large enough, but the principal source of emolutuen t ~. i 7 was that of lovs. Ile understood that the I..ruter liis!‘o? of Clo.{her—not the last one—went to Ireland without a shilling:, and died worth between 3 and 400,0001. The propriy of the Bishop of Armagh. if let out upon ordi nary temp, would produce 159,0001. a year, being, it was said, the income of a (Inman prince, lie rather thought it would -goal the revenues of ten Beem an pra int:4 s lie did nut positively say that this was a f a ce, hut the matter was surely worth ingoirinsr into. The 1 Hon. li,riiletttan next reterrel to two returns—the one made in I`A by order of the Duke of Bedford, of all the livings in Ireland; the other was a volume of questions and miners put to and received from the Bishops Of 1 relami. Both damn eats were ex. ceedingly defective in many material parti. talus.— There was another reason why he was &mous for a Com mittee. Flom time It' p irt of the Connstimioners,. dated November 15th, 1L..19, A 19, it appeared that even the rehhi shop of Armagh admitted that the church( s in Ireland were ins same of ruin, and that, he (Mr. 11.) presumed, . . must have arisen from theappropriation - of the money by the . dignitaries of the Churelo, to some other use, because it could not be sai'd that abundance of money had not been granted by Parliament, flout time to time, to keep t he churches in the most ample rep mir. Primate even further admitted, that the glebe lends had been oohed hie laymen, and certainly he (Moll.) could have hartsly ex pected that the church would have been so lie. , ligont of their own interests, as to suffer the glebe lands to have been seized upon. These circumstances he mentioned to strengthen his argument for the necesoity of appointing a Committee. Ile tomtit! also take the liberty of refer ring to a doter addressed by Load l'emple to Govern orient, in which he painted oat the advantages which mould result from an inquiry into the state of the church. lu this letter it was stated, that the aff.irs of the church were little and much misrepresented, a hi; ii were only stronger arguments for the necessity of goyim g into a full and efficient examination of them. Al ter die automate, of the Archbishop of Armagh, the moose would not d o its duty if they did not go into an inquiry. Ile now m ono to another itoportaut point, nano ly, the toot mole of fa cilit4ting the changes which he p. °posed loam change that shoals take place, he proposed t hat 110 vacancy WWI the Bishops should he filled up till their number was re duced to one Archbishop endOour Bishops. This num ber he was satisfied was quite sufficient to take rare of the interests of Ile. church ; and localise at the Union it was tito.ight atlequate to that purpose, the number who were to protect the interests ot the enured' of Irt I and in the house of hoots eas limited to one Archbisl.op and three Bishops (hear.) He contended tl.at 'hat number would be amply oval to all the duties tiecessary to le performed, in taking care of ti .e sniritnal interests cf 441,000 persons. In every part of the world tote Bi shop would be thought quite enough to tame care of 100.000 souls; but in Ireland thm y %mere even too nume rous for the ohmic population, admittino they were Pic testants. As the Dens end Chapters had no clorical duties to perform, tile: ought all he sutler; ml to d'e (Much laughing.)—lt the Cornelia. e shottld adept his views upon this subject, he Ohl not think it ootOol do its duty unless it coded upon his Majedy not to fill aloe vacancy that might o.lcur anongst the Deana and Chat ters, because they were quite an' ecessary , in his opinion. Whatever difficulty there might be in apt ling I is pri: &pie to :he appointing to bentlites, there euuld be 'none as concerned Deans and Chapters. But even in Ile ease of benefices, the difficulty was very easily removed, be cmuse he could show the right of the appointment to much time greater number was, in point of fact, vested in the Crown. In Ireland the nuattmer of parishes amounted to 2244, which were foonol ieto 1314 of which were in the appointment of Bishops, and 300 it, the appointment of the Croon; aed as the Crown had the appointment of the Bishops, he was w mrranteml in concluding that the Crown h til the ap; ointnoint to no less than 1614 benefices.—(A laugh.) He contenderitsfixt this reasoning aaacorrect, Into weir tf the Crown did not appoint the Bishops. the later could net a ppoint to t ee benefices. '1 here then remained but 630, wioch belonged to laymen, or abcut one-fourth of the whole number.— This was all they would hate to provide a remuneration for, and for his part he sate no iiithnulty in coluirg to 'a fair and just ooptalizaion as far as concerned this am ber. This statement ought to remove every doubt as to the difficulty of effecting a change in the present sys tem. It was not a part of his proposition teat she pre sent incumbent should suffer; so far from it, he assured the house that lie never contemplated any change which would cause an injury to any individual. So great a number of benefices resting in ,he appointment of the Crown, removed in. his mind any obstacle to a toga anal practicable change. There now remained nothing for bin, to advert to, but the question of Ti hex, and oho this he felt himself relieved from the necestity of going infoany lengthened detail, because all men wore agreeti upon the abuses which existed in this system. If he would n it go into this subject at longth, lie could maim the house that it was nut fir want of abundant dqtt silents to prove its evils and abuses, for so politic acre they of information, that the only difficulty was to know which to chuose. If a Committee of I uquiry ; should be granted Win, he did not mean to propose that intlividaale whatever they received now, whether 2 or 300111. a year, should stiffer one shilling. He had no intention not to allow them to receive the full amount of their present benefices. He would propose that the property of the Bishops, Deans, and Chapters, should be sold, and that the '1 Hos should be committed at twelve or thirteen years value, instes I of twenty-sive. and that the praises arising from these two sources should be converted to a general fund, from which time claims of all the present Dignitaries and incumbents should be pail. Ile was a tisned that this fund would be envoi • enough, not only for all these claims, but also for those of the lay pro prietors. These he would place upon time same footing as the incumbents. If then this scheme presented um. difficulty in its execution, anti if the general interest of the country required its adoption, he saw no reason why time house should object to such a measure. If, further, he could show that the property ot the Bishops ; Deno. and Chapters in Ireland, was more than Rah, J e n% to im p_ port three such churches. amt', he woilloi ask, should Parliament consent to such as uneecessary pressure upon the landed interest, at the moment it was its its greatest distress ? Ihe measure which he pre pored was not altogether novel. It 114;1 been already pr..ctised in other countries with a beneficial effect. In Tuscany, Prince Leopol f took the prop oiv belonging to the deaths, and a ith the produot arising from a com mutation of tithes creattd a fund, out of which the claims of the Church and the Lay Proprietors were paid, and ever after the land was freed from the payme tt of tithes. Here eas an instance ot its practicability; and be saw mr reason why a shinier measure should be less practicable in England or lreland. He could Lot he p saying a word or too tip in the conduct of the Clergy with repot to the present question. Some of them seemed to have taken a decided partaosirst any chanee• At a Meeting of the. Clergy, convened by the Archbi shop of Arinegh, Resolutions were entered into expres sive of their hostility agaiust any alteration in the pre sent state of the Clinreto. lint lie could net ronceir' what right the Clergy bad to interfere ia any alteration which Parliament might think proper to make. They had no right to concern themselves about their successors, no snore than the officers of a battalion had to enter into resolutions for the purpose of preventing their being disbanded, or preventiog the reduction of the pay of their successors. The former had no more right to in terfere titan the latter. Time Clergy refused to take a remuneration Irons Government fur their duties. No, — s ti they, i.e are too independent in principle to twee to such a measure that would place us in a state of subset fror the .and fc,ll at ('ha mud Rn wiso don aa• ••• aim and plal - pr 9 sho poi wlii he wLi his • fat . (H ba,