The Statesman. — London, England, 1819-12-01 00:00:00

~' THE STATESMAN. eel decree of decorum, enforce it, when it was con- Awed that it troald t intolve such weighty matters of di es esien. after only three days' notice, sad rail g ee the Hesse to decide epos a question which went to permanent alteration in the Constitution of the ceentry ? Lord CASTLEREAGH replid, he sew no n for elterieg the course he had adopted ; the sooner the second reading leek place the better, because it vel d t ) afford an opportunity for the country to be egiesieleti with the object of the measure, and re. were the misconception, with which the speech of the Illeneerable Member bad elaborately and studiously sorreended it. Mr. UROUGHAM.—If the Noble Lord thrived he had elaborately and *tediously misrepresented the salve of the measere. he supposed the same *lke. times could net be made to the documents laid spun thimble, and now in the hands of Members. Upon ••• arementoee a qaestion, be would ewe, to the Noble Lord whether, in common decency, the coin. ^try eeeht not to have an opportunity of expressing its opinion at least, that the Members should have time to contiglet it ; and, added the Hon. Geotlensan, U the Noble L,rd refeses to linen to my suggestion, I will appeal to you, Sir (addressing himself to the Spiker), and to the House, whether a qeestion Deed to be precipitately proceeded on, which threatens to destroy the inalienable rights of the people, by one maser* introduced by his Mejesq's Ministers. Lord FOLKESTONE, we understood to say, as the goestien would occupy much important discus. ties, sad as manifold and complicated circumstances were conoected with it, he hoped the Noble Lind weeld postpone the second reeding for a short time; the people eight to Myelin opportunity of tiptoes- Sag their *Ordure', mod the geestien ought to be ikerovegbly indersteed by the country and by the House. The Hon. G. BENNETT said, that as the gui don ought to have ample investigation, be should to morrow mere for a Call of the House. INTERNAL STATE OF THE COUNTRY. Lord ALTHORP, in rising pursuant to entice, mid, the queries, important of itself, had been moaned doubly se by the determination of the Noble Lrd. &toothier' might be said if the country con. 44 4 in his Majesty's Ministers; bet even were it so, he 'mild set adopt such measures from cool • deuce in say elm In reference to the transactions at Manchester, be thought they should he divided into toe parts, the first to comprise the Inansactioes pre. elites to the 16th of August, the other those that took place sobsageeet to that day. It appeared f re e the statements before the House that the Ma. gistrsies at Manchester had anticipated danger.— He could hardly conceive any state of things solid est to jellify those measures he had heard proposed of coercion and unmitigated sevesity.—[fleer!]— la the first place, however, before such measures mold be adopted, he thought the House should be pet le possession of some information with regard to she actual state of Scotland. Unless they wore cc- isolated with the causes that led to such a change In *bat quarter, enlists accurately itiformed of all the eircomstances attending their various Meetings in that pert of the Empire, it would he impossible to proceed Flo legislate span them. It would be acting in the dark, It would be plug forward with a precipitancy es us paralleled as it was evidently unjustifiable. More Intel. llgesce would be eacessery from Lancashire as to the etate of that meaty previously to the 16th of Aug. ; in short, complete information should be given of the ac. teal condition of all those districts said to bedisturbed, before palliatives sire administered, or severe sod seercive remedies applied by way of cure. The statements of the Magistrates should not induce them So alter or to abrogate the relating laws ; nor should the infatuation derived from Mr. Illy, in which mousy things reqeired explanation, be made the basis of harsh and onuses! tee Ministers might bate, and on doubt had, certain information whir . was not before the House. The Ministers saw Mr. Illy, had painful conversation with him, cud are so far enabled to glee that information—nay, the seeessery explanation of his statelnents,witbo at which the Howse could not boatel, adopt those measures proposed by the Noble Lord. The Magistrates said, that the Riot Al t vas road after some of the leaders wore taken. and the Meeting then dispersed. The Noble hard (Castlereagh) gave rather a different 'union of the story; not that ha (Lord Althorp) Shrew the least doebt,on the statement made by that Noble Lord ; un the contrary, be believed he (1.-rril Castlereagh) only spoke what he thought to he the truth ; bet when such a variance etisied , enquiry was necessary, and that enquiry could best take place before a Committee of the ileum The Noble Lord stated, the Magistrates, or on. of them, to hive been trampled on; Mr. !ley makes so tritliiioll of any such fact; sod was it conceivable that such an cc. torrent, cook' have taken place, and yet ao antic, to be taken of it by one of the most active Magic. Oates, who figured en that occasion? The teadingl of the Riot Act was a principal affair In the proceed. legs at Manchester. Some persons maintained it was sus reedothers denied it. The information of the Magistrates was not satisfactory on the point, and therefore the oral examioatioa of the Magistrates be came absolutely necessary. Another matter ought to be explained, of which be himself had some know ledge, which the public ought not to be satisfied to take from him, which ought to come from Mi lliliters themselves, and come to the Home sealed with the stamp of astbority, wisely, es to the com plaint made my many, that had Sir John Byng re mained at Manchester, nothing like what happened wooed have probably occurred. That Gallant Officer was censored also by many for not remaining at the pester danger, if any danger were rppreheoded. But what said Sir John Byng ? That he was et Man. Chester on the 14th of August—that he offered to remain there; to which the Magistrates replied, his preseuee would not be necessary : and that he further added on his leasing town, be would made within the truth of an uprise. The Magistrates on the 14th of Aegust bed acted as if they did not contemplate say danger, or contemplating the scenes that did occur, refused the co-operation of that officer, who might bore preve n ted the shedding of human blood. 11es eat enquiry seeesnry on :kis gronud alone, if there veto no other on which it was imperatively de. wastled ? If blame were imputable to any party or l'stlies, it certainly was not imputable to Sir John ll; ng. A, the conduct of that Gallant Officar was at all called in question, some eaplanstion was due to him , nd to the country, and that upon the authority of the Government, who should be pawned to knew the weal facts as they occurred. A large propor tion of the evidence contained in the papers before the :loose was anonymous, and required to be sap ported from authority. It was not that evidence on which the (louse should met with that precipitate se verity which was called for by the Noble Lord (Cos. tleresgh). It farther appeared, that may of the persons who bad given evidence acted as spies; and after all that bad transpired on a recent ocotillos, its which the system of espionage was ■otorioealy adopted by Gemmel's', how could they doubt, bet that similar stratagems were adopted at Manchester, and that for the very porpose of obtaining those mestere, now insisted Oa as ne cessary to preserve the public peace, and pat down seditious Meetings ? If the Magistrates acted correctly, it they were huseasot of the charges pre ferred against them, enquiry would rescue them from eblegey, and re-establish them in that reputation, whioh they had some bow or other forfeited since the affair of the 16th of Aegest. So far, he considered solicient reasons were adulated to entitle him to call for a Committee. One objectiess was started to its appointment; Namely, the delay it would predate in the approval or adopt's,n of the measures proposed last night : and a wood objection was also started, that any enquiry 'mild be so injury to the Magi,- tram. As to delay, he would am use the argasecn. few ad Actinism to the Noble Lord (Castierragq, for he bed delayed proposieg his measures, or call ing the Parliament together, esti, each a time was solved to 'lam, as mold eel make the delay be (Lord Althorp) wished a matter of iecirevesis nice, much less of Wary, to the Magistrates or toe country. It was beside me reties to justify magi limy on the pert of the Hoes,, that the Noble Leal 'coveted all possible divetch to the adoption aide peeposeti measures. Wish regard to two .1 the pee. posed measures, es to training end drilling fee SIM% he sae so obj.-ction to their immediately doing Mee. thing. 'Fromm* by night was likely to do consider. able mischief, and could not be attended with any possible advantage. Then as to the other measure, the alteration in the right of , nothing could be effected in that until the neat Asuses. With re gard to the other three measures, the misers of arms, the prevention of seditioes Meetings, sad resttimieas on the Press, be thought delay ausolutely requisite, in order that the noose should be telly itiformed as to the circumstances calling epos them for their adoption. Nothing had spit:sett in the eidetic, be fore them to show that the eccurnalrion of arms had been so great throughout the coootty as to render enquiry into the fact at all injuitues. Thisty or forty pikes might have been discovered in a certain jeerer, let such • fact mode nothing in a question of such vast importance as the right of depriving Elfish. men of the use of arms. With regard to any further meetings, he apprehended bat little danger from there. Hitherto they dispersed at the orders of the Magi,. I trees; and she was there sow to lead the noose to suppose the people who might attend them, would kee obedient to their commands, useless, indeed, IN elleSeal impressioe, that his Majesty's Govern. I sent were determined to close thee eats against! eves; petition and reneetratice for enquiry ? The same observations applied to the whiten press :1 r wherever offending parties were brought Woe the tribunals of she ceentry, and their offence was proved, the Julies vindicated the laws, and speedy punishment followed the transgressors. Precipitate measures were seldom well received, they were sel dom well digested, and legislation should not be so carried on, as if by wholesale. The cottony was not to be deprived of that satisfaction which enquiry would milord them, Merely because Mr. Nottis us Mr. Hay were parties upon whom considersuie cen sure hod been cast. if those Gentlemen were innocent, nothing injurious could come out ; it othrswise, nothing could come out but what the public had a jest right to demand. Ile had heard the measures proposed by the Noble Lord opPsite with astonishment end regret. Ile did not think them called for by the present can hien of the country ; and he was only the sorry tnat he could not impels mere forcih!y the necessity of referring the Papers aid on the table to a Committee of the Stowe. Ile bad used Ifs best eta aaaaaa s to .how the necessity for such so enquiry; and be had combated the only feasible silij.etion likely to he urged against its ap pointment; and hating donee ter us the performance of his duty, he concluded by moving—" That the Pape. laid on the table by Lord Viscount Castle reagh, relative to the affairs at Manchester, be le (erred to a S.lect Committee of Entpilry." Colonel DAVIES, in seconding the motion, said. perhaps, according to the weal custom, he should have waited until some Gentleman on the other side of the House had delivered his sentiments os the subject. But when so inoment.ius • question was before them, as the direct insist." of • coostitistional right, he could not persuade himself to remain silent. The Ministers had shut their eyes to the calamities et the people, and closed their ears to the mites re monstrance which had from lima to time been urged against the latish waste of the public spotty. Taus and burdens made the people cry out ; sad sow it sp. peered they snootily to be apposed by the bay one and the sword. la truth, every part of the conduct of the Government only served to point to the dreadful fact, that they wished to bee • military despotism sop plant and destroy the laws. They had wantonly shut their eyes to those transactions of which they wow se bitterly complain, and yet were new invoking pro tection against those dangers which they themselves had been mainly instrumental in producing. Ills heart sickened at the calamities which be saw shied, at the misery that marked the once goerishing people of these kingdoms. There was something radically wrong in the system by whisk they were governed, or all the evils with which they were menaced could never have arisen, or reached their present alarming height-The condition of England at this moment was compered to that of France at the plied of the Rees lotion; bet nothing was mere enlonoded than such a Comparison. The condition of Franco was such at that period, that the Resolute, was hailed as the dawning of freedom ; and what, he would ask, was Dow more dreaded in England, sod easy properly dreaded, than the slightest approach to such • state of things? The patience of the people should not be limbed too far : Human endurance had its limit, and beyond that it should not be urged, or the cense. essences might be more ctlamitoes !hen mint' 11 ' 0 . Gaittempo contemplated. If treason, or sedition. nr blasphemy existed, they mold be pat dawn by other means then new laws of severity and coercion, then by bayonets, unfortunately so much resorted to in later times. After a few farther observations the Hon. Member concluded by seconding the motion of his Noble Friend (Lord Althnrp). Mr. B. BATHURST opposed the motion. Sir M. W. RIDLEY supported it. Mr. I. IVELLESLF.Y opposed the call for Par liamentary enquiry. The Howe could nut but see that no proposition was less likely to terminate in any beneficial resell than that of rendering that Noose, composed of so many Mindsets, and incapable of etersioing witnesses on oath, a Court for the exercise of any thing resembling judicial enquiry.—; No place could be so well adapted for that species of • enquiry, in his mind, as Courts of Lew of adequste jurisdiction, where the witnesses give their testimony,' end the Jery their verdict, open oath. He bad riser' with diffidence to eddies the House, and was always but too Conscious of his inability to address the Hann . with any degree of satisfaction to himself; but he ' could assure the Haus, that he most sincerely felt that there was no circumstance which could tend so directly to keep up the agitation and alarm which new existed throughout the country, as a display of soy hesitation on the part of the Ilnesette adopt some ! well.deined and salutary restrictive measures, as its eaten' result would be to convince the public that Parliament was sot even es yet aware of the spirit j which was abroad, or the &sprees designs of the disaffected. Lord lawns, Mr. Douglas Kinnaird, and awns thee Member, rose to speak at the seem moment. The Speaker and the House decided in favour of heaths the new Member. Mr. KINNAIRD then addressed the Hoes. Ile said he felt himself the more strongly Induced to avail himself that evening of the piivi:ege enjoyed by a new Member its making his first address to the Hoes, as he was &roughly convinced that after Ithat eight it might be of very little consequence in. deed wise addressed diem as to the rights and liberties l of a people which, should these Bills pass, could no longer be considered free. He deeply lamented that the Address voted by the House la answer to the Speech from the Throne had not condescended to sake any snake of the charge made in that Speech easiest the people of England, as tainted with blasphemy and seditien ; the best compliment, certainly, the Hoes could have paid to the Speech of that illustrious individual would have boas, a pledge given by its snswer to take the subject of this charge into its most serious consideration, sad eta. mine it most minutely ; and a recommendation to the House to that effect would have well become the Noble Lorl acting as the Minister of the Kieft. Ile had viewed this subject perhaps with more alarm than any one, for obvious reasons, which were not likely to he decreased by any thing he bad as yet heard from say Member in that Hesse. The principal of these reasons was, that the House bad consented to take the word of the Misisler of the Crown without in vestigating the Papers laid before the Hews., which, he would pledge himself to prove, in themselves dis proved and falsified the sssations end charges used* egoist his Majesty's subjects. The gravamen of these odious assertions was the sweeping charge against the mass of the people of this country, as bee I log tainted with the blasphemous sod seditious spirit, a charge of sn heinous a nature, that he treated the House would have been, end she country still *Gold be, 'wailing to give it credence. H., for one, would never come to any inch conclusion until the House should have consented to enter into the most sitisfec. tory investiAation, and the charge should be substan tially proved. It was true the people were at present suffering the most Severe distress. Distress begot dis content. This was not extraordinary ; but that dis. content should ',stoutly, as it had been urged, beget impiety aid sedition, required very strong advocates indeed before he could consent to sub an inference. Thar discontent hail been engendered through a coo. section that they were subjected to enemies tatailen and misrule. Though it were admitted such were the sentiments very generally entertained of oar present mode of Goan omens, it could not thence be Inferred, that the people entertained a design to overthrow all orders of twirl'', anti subvert the Constitution. It was a charge of treason to God and their King to accuse this oar fellowssehjetts of a deliberate intro !inn to murder all the men of property, and pr themselves of all she wealth of their victims. Of this disposition, it had been said sufficient proofs had been exhibited by the conduct of some with abuse he ems particularly connected, as a coantrys man, in some parts of Scotland. Ile defied the Noble Lord to prove any such disposition existed there. If any such could be proved, what else would be the duty of every man *silk or eminence but le draw his sword from its scabbard, sod, at the head of his tenantry, oppose the threatened danger ? Bel the very fast of the Magistrates' permitting their wives,children, sad property to remain, notwithstanding the alarm said to have been created, disproved the truth of their own statements. It appesred that Lord Derby bed represented to Government, that in consequence of the disaffection prevalent, there had been a resists. ties entered Into to raise a led, of Yeomanry, auseentine to 1,000 men. This communication bore date the 16th of July, 1819, and nntwithttandisig all their alleged I , the same Noble Lord was obliged ',confess, in a letter on the Secretary of State, dated 'the 18th of August following, that a sufficient num. ber of Gentlemen had not yet put down their stamps to enable him to appoint officer, to one battalion cries of hear, hear!] — Ile lamented that the Hesse, on se b infortnrtinn, partly anonymous as respected pikes awl other weapons, should, on a former night, have come In decision on this important topic, es if it had been a party question, and suffered the Address to be carilei in its original mete as it were through personal pigs,. If such were the resells of discussicn amongst me, of lanno•rable minds, might it oat b. (silly concluded, that the lower orders, being excited by warm end im passioned statements anti addresses es them Meetings, might, by possibility, have felt the necessity of coali tion from the pressor, of distress, without the II 'use, as impartial jades, being culled upon formally to de nounce their objects as treasonable? Hence, too, it might Got betee MU t0..117,..c0-11, nett :!.t 111-gs. lions in those papers on the table tree. thine person bail anise into training L., the purpose of being more able in rely on one en ether. —(Coed cheering front the Ministerial Reaches j--11he Howe. should leek to what might be the consequence of (Mote men being placed 'tithe's the pale of the law on light gross& ; it then, indeed, might become unsafe for an &Wish Goo. liemsn to appear abroad unarmed, or euterompsnied by an armed tenantry If peace and tranquillity were sow the object of Government, a.y most be attained by other means then those resorted to by Go. Simmonsn two years ago. when informstion was evonedly song%t ihroath hired Ilid!"--(/lears hear, hear!)—she Were themselves the most *e diting, men in their language at the public and private Meetints, us in the case of Castles, who ideally gave es a toast, is May the last of &long be strangled with she entrails of the last of Priests;" ter which toast he wag imased:ately espelled the company. This, ihnuch coming front •he month of a spy, WI, repreeent4 to Government and the M o e, as p...e...din a fr..ns a delegate to the Reformess a that day. Thus Government finding itself be trayed and dic-tved by its spies, Iwo not whit to believe. Th..sd of the present ',stem wa•, that worst symptoms of she irritated Stile of the politic mind were megneled Into monsters for the perposve of alarm. As to the reproof the fiettabis of this country had received froot the Nirtile Lord aft a for mer night, liken he so sieiliously evolded telling the Hesse what he wilt going to take sway finny the stock of public libeity, end drew its attention rather to what ha was going to leave, he would sty in their defence, that thine were many Inetance. in *bleb fe males in Ibis errantry interested themselves in public, as in the case of the 101 l Weatminsier elecsint., abets the women canvassed the whole city, and numbers tittered into a society called the lollies' sabscrip tion.—( Ilene. hear! and laughter.)--11 062 oil the records of the hoes. also, es related by Lord Clarendon, that a deputation Ind been sent to answer the complaints of a body of StXX) women, who remonstrated with the Horne, spin the cruel detention in prison of their husbands from the society at their wives, end the brutal murder of their chit. dren. The relcbrated Pym was ordered to answer them, and on their refusal le diapers+, the train. bands were called oat, and Woolly it'd open them, I selion they exclaimed—" peace, peace."—(Misch ittaghler.)—lle was sorry, le citing astherity in fa. r veer of the tights of women, to have recited a laugh, likes he was most eosins, to be wines. He citeld not help being alarmed, he contested, when that was declared by the Legislator, treason which was meetly the elect of en 'rumen's impression. lie firmly believed, too, shot much depended, as to restoring couitlenee and trangoillity, en the Mete shelties a disposition to concede on the point of Perlismeotary Heform,and that the Reformists would gladly eeeept of terms of accommodation very inferior to these de. mended by the tenor sad spirit of their various Rose. Wilsey at psblic Meetings ; iw one of which (we be. lisle that of Ashby.le.Moor) it hes been slated, all a refutation of the supposed aversion they enter. Weed for men of property, " that the aliens. lion of the rich from the poor would necessarily produce the the d •strei lion of both ; and that on. thing be. en nimity in siek.ng a Ridical Helot* would We the country, but more mpeciaily the manefsctoring Interest, from destrectio •." He cos. cleded with work( the House, these were the sin. sere sentiments of a men who had given the subject some attention, and who, from his connexions Is life, could not pris , isly hare any interest In willow. ing the misfortunes of the higher classes. Lord LASCELLF.S defended the conduct of Gee. Byng, who hid offered to the Magistrates to remain at Manchester. should they apprehend any diner from the Meting of the 10th of Avg. and which offer they had declined. He was of opinion, that distrait!, we, the Clete of the discontent that prevailed Is certain districts. The people bid been add•eased by itinerant orator*, to whom they had at first decked from curiosity. By degrees, the Meetings ben*, Mere numerous, and the doctrines more isitimma. tory ; and then those who at first bad attended from mete euriosity, became, by degrees, connected with the leaders, though many of them, he believed, were hottest moo. Bet the try could not go on ender tech system.—(/leer, hear!) —Many, though they matched from a great distance to attend these Meet. ings, were sot ripe for rebellion, though he was afraid many were. Bet the difficulty could not be got over while the itinerant orators were allowed to proceed; and in a short time the manufacturers of the country *meld be annihilated. Mr. BENETT (of Wiltshire) said, the emotion for she consideration of the House was, if strong ion should be adopted on the bare representation of Ministers. He did not think that la virs which most elect the whole of the community, should he enacted en the conduct of a few. There was meth distress, bat nothing of a radical feeling, in the County that he had the honour to represent. He should oppose strong restrictive laws, without enquity. Lord MILTON agreed is much of what had fillets from his Noble Friend opposite (Lord La;rellos). The transactions at Niattchester most imperiously called for enquiry,and for the interference of l'ailiament. Much obloquy had attached In him and his friends for the I part they had taken at she Yorkshire Meeting, but he hid concisesi the Constitution to be at yoke. If the Meeting at Manchester had been illegal, it shoal hate been distersed accortimg to law. Ht. was ready to admit, that should violence be employed, it might lawfully be resisted by violence; bet it was by no moans clear in him shit vi hence had commences! en the part of the Meeting. It wits clear, from the jester !of Mr. Illy, the Magistrate, that no attack had beers wild• on the Yeomanry •rrioir without the orders of the Nlaqi.tracy—(lfear!)—N • enquiry sati-factury ; to the people m aid lake plirre without the interferences of Y.. liament.—(rinse!)—The n proposed I.•t 'light by the Noble I.urd would have jesiilied whit li•d two done at she Meeting in Vnikshire. When the whole of the conduct of the N.ihle Lirid sw:lt.a.nk:ntoinetnnechotti.sildheeraKi n i n o g , o e f od sp illA ain t c o t p re f . : s h o e last himself of his Atterican dominions, they shows) I clearly the spirit under *hies the country was to be governed. at l i ie he a h rlit i m ous td e e .4. la u i l l a h l ie h c e . Noble Lord iatrforth ( e we!:. effected; effected; and he hoped that he should obtain from Ministers some tooth:oration f t Is, ;offerings of tt.4 • pe-rate. Befo!st th: Jl-ells -f the 1 0 .1 . h of A-413