The Statesman. — London, England, 1814-11-19 00:00:00

THE STAyESMA N. vr---r--.-.-v-swsree---r•-'-r--,.,...,... ...-....--:-...-1.---..:.--.- ---- -....- .-..-- - . 0 - •- have evidently have had to contend single-handed extraordinary exertions which the co untry had been that they were employed just as a body of Bavarians, against the world in arms. It was clear, then, that making for many years, it was setnewhat painful to Wirtemissirgers, or any other foreigti troops might be a crisis was then approaching, and that nothing but hear now of pew •exertions oaths;backof .thote in service. Hanover was not houodto WOO any, , an expenditure such as had never before been re. that bad been already mode. All `thtit; the Right +rite for Ate purposes stated in tfit Treaty of Chao. sorted to could meet that crisis. He had himself laid Hon. Gent. had said, convinced him the more that ',Mout. By .that Treaty the fivegreet 'Powert en-, a plan before the House, *which, whatever might Ili he ought not to vote this .Without Vegetal . Worms- gigA to'‘,keepopt certain force, which they con.' thought of it in other respects, admitted of an ex- tion before the house. Whatever tespect he felt for solved sufficaeut. None of the smaller Powers were penditure almost to an unlimited extent for a certain the assertions of the Right Hon. gent., still he con- called upon to make any exertions. Bavaria and time without any very heavy additional pressure up. ceived that it was documentary information which other States, that could afford to keep up an army on the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman him- ought alone to satisfy the House. It was at all better than Hanover, were not called upon to do so. self had at that time made au observation which he times in the power of Ministers to call Parliament As to the creation of Hanover into a kingdom, this recollected. He had said, ts now we shall have a' together before Christmas,' and ask for large sums of was a.measure not taken in consequence of any ad. vigorous war since so largess' sum ii demanded."— money. If any Gentleman should then feel-it his vice from this country, and with which this country' We had had a vigorous war, and the Right Hon. duty to ask for some account about the money that bad nothing to do. It 'did not give Hanover stay Gentleman had not been disappointed, and the sum he was called opon to vote, the answer might alwlys greater or less claim on tide country than it had be. which the Right Hon. Gentleman thought would be as in the present instance, "we want the motsey, ' fore. This resolution wag taken In .consequence of i have been exhausted in one year had lasted nearly' but cannot give you any account, as the regular time the determination of . other German Stales; and prin. three years. But to come more particularly to the', of theyear for making tip the public accounts has not cipally on account of the absurdity of preserving the point of the Army Extraordinaries:—'When he sac. ' yet arrived." By t h ese means th e H o use might get title of Electors, when the German Empire had ceeded to the situation which he at present held, on into the practice of voting large sums of the public ' ceased to be elective, and there remained nothing the occurrence of that disaster which had deprived money merely on the demand of the Minister, with- for them to elect. It was with some surprise that the country of one of its wisest and most virtuous' out any explanation of the necessity of granting it. be heard the observations of the Right Honourable statesmen, the Duke of Wellington wrote home, that When we heard of great exertions to be made, we Gentleman as to the expence occasioned by the Rue he could not advance and carry on operations in the ! understood pretty well that a great expenditure was : sian ships. If we well recollected the time wises interior without a greater supply of money ; that he in contemplation. Government seemed to conceive,' those ships entered our harbours, ,we must confess was chained to thecoast ; but that if he were furnish. I that if the House gave its approbation to great exec- 1 that it was the noblest pledge which Russia could then ed with 100,0001. per month, he might be enabled to' Lions being made, that they might then push the ex- : give this country of its intentions, and that it was advance into the interior, and carry on his operations penditure to whatever limits they thought, proper. i calculated to give this country the fullest confidence so a manner more useful to the common cause. Go. lAs Ministers now talked of future great exertions, ' In . lbe. Russian Ceuncils. He believed that, if we vernment had undertaken to advance the sums re. i he thought.thet the House should let them kis,pw, `were to revert to the sense of the public at that time,' quired, and this had given rise to the advance which 1 that they did not mean to sanction them in puilirtg l it o would be allowed that hardly any sum that could led to the battle and victory of Salamanca, and this; the expenditure of the country to whatever length /b et a been asked then, would have been deemed too showed the dependence of our successes on , our ex . ' ) they thought proper. The House, that was to vote much to obtain this pledge of the sincerity of Russia. penditure. Exclusive of the bills drawn in the Penin. the money, ought to have some idea of the scale of Mr. BARING observed, that on this question of sofa and France, they had subsequently remitted i expenditure upon which Ministers were going. He the Army Extraordinaries, the details were insutfi -3,300,0001. in specie. A sum of 410,0001. brought i did not suppose that any thing could have occurred cient for any explanation, and that when laid before from America had also been remitted ; so that little i since the 30th of last July, to alter materially the the House they would appear to be merely state. short of 4 millions had been sent in specie to the I view that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken meats of Commissaries drawing to such and such'tn , army in the space of about half a year. The Bias ;of the expenditure.of the year ; and yet he had not, amount. Unless he was misinformed, he believed drawn by the Commissariat amounted to about 12 , before that time, informed the House of the pro. no account from 1807 till now had been audited and millions. It was clear that this expenditure was ne. ' bability of such an amount of Army Extraortlinaries. examined, either on the affairs of the Mediterranean, cessary to lay the foundation for successful exer- I Parliament had acted with great confidence and H. the Peninsula, or America. lie should be happy to lien ; and it required, besides, all the ability of our: berality towards Government; and the return they , find this denied ; , but he should move for papers ex great Commander, to advance and carry on opera. I met with was, that Ministers wished to lead them in 1 planatory of that subject. He believed that the tions iu a country so exhausted as Spain was at that 1 the dark. It was really time for the House to mt.- ; Chancellor of the Exchequer had little more infer. time. It was then a common observation in Spain, ; cise more vigilance, when large sums of public money ; mation on the subject to communicate than -other "If you advance with a small force, you are beaten; I were demanded by the Minister. They had, of late , Members. Even the name of the great Hero who if %ids a large forte, you are starved." ' To this was years, been in the habit of voting twenty-five or ; commanded in the Peninsula , ought not to stand in to be added, the great sums advanced to our Allies, twenty-six millions of the public money, with more ; the way of examination into the accounts of the which had also contributed essentially to the great indifference than 500,0001. would have been voted ; Commissariat., A chief feature of the expellees was results which had• taken place. The House would in the time of Mr. Pitt. The language of the Go- ‘ for mules, for which the furnisher received certifi. recollect, that by the Treaty of Chaumont, this I vernment now appeared to be this :—" We wanfien Owe of service : Suppose a Spanish army landed in l te country was to furnish to the three great Powers millions, give us eight of them now, without any Wake, end carrying on war among the mountains, Russia, Austria, and Prussia, a sum of five millioes 1 explanation, and we will give you an opportunity of i should give similar certificates, what would be done for the year 1814, if the-war should continue during I talking afterwards about the other two millions."-- 'with them ? Conceive, then, what the Spanish mu- the whole year; and it not, then a proportionate lie really did not thinlc, this a proper way for Mi. leteer would do with them. In fact, he sold them at sum for the troops on their return. The whole of ntsters to act. He thought it was their duty to have 50 or GO per cent. discount. If a Committee were this had been paid up, except an allowance to Ras. presented a detailed account of this expenditure, appointed to examine, 'it would be found that the sia for her Beet, which it had been agreed should co. 1 and that, perhaps it was the duty of the House to , furnisher received not more than a third of what was operate with the British fieet, and be maintained by ' appoint a Committee to examine the account. He ; 'paid by the British public. These certificates were England. A sum was due to Rossi& on this account, ' realty did not wish to throw any embarrassments in bought up at a discount, by which means enormous the exact amotrut of which had not as yet been ewer.; the way of the Right lion. Gentleman, but be did : fortunes had been made in Spain. He could bring tamed : but with this exception, the whole of what.' not think that he or any Minister had a right to ;persons to prove this statement. He had seen a man was doe by the Treaty had been discharged. To Lelaim such blind confidence from the House. As to ; two or three days ago who had made 55 per cent. Sweden, 800,0001. had been paid: and under the the subsidiary treaty, he still wished to know who. Iby the purchase of this paper, which was yet to be Treaty with D, , ninark, laid on the table last Session, tiler the Hanoverian part of an army of' 75,000 was bought at from 25 to 27 per cent. discount. He 550,0001. had been paid to her for three months sec- to be paid by Hanover or this country ? would ask what Government could have been about, vice. Since the year 1809, 400,0001. -yearly had' The CHANCELLOR of the_ RUHEQUER rew r nfterrar, when such transactions were going been paid to his Sicilian Majesty, and it had been ; plied (as we understood him), that some pert of the iforwerd ? The difficulties had, in fact, arisen out . agreed that one half of this should he paid till the ; expenditure might be accounted for in future, by the of the very system. Ten millions had been , expended close of the Congress at Vienna, as the country in 1 Hanoverian Government, but that it was at present when five millions might have served, particularly j question might he the subject of regulation and ar- ;to be borne by this country. • if specie could have been brought forward. Even rangentent in that Congress. To Portugal, this coun. 1 Mr. 11ERNEY resume d .. — l t appeared, then, with all the spittle that could be gotten in the last _ _ try had under Treaty furnished two millions annually, and had agreed to supply 400,0001. for the return of troops. With Spain there had been no regular agreement, but considerable sums had been advanced in money and stores of various descriptions. The only ether article was the expence of the llanoverian troops employed under the Crown Prince. The whole amount of the Subsidies which this country had been called upon to pay amounted in all to a sum of about 7,300,0001. He had no reason for believing the total deficiency to be greater than he had estimated it at. He should conceive the sum of ten millions sufficient to include the deficiencies of every kind antler the head of Army Extraordinaries. If the House should agree in the present Resolution, he should probably, at some future stage of the Session, bare to propose another vote for about two millions. _ _ that under this blessed Treaty, for the reparation of the German States, this new kingdom of Hanover was to gain great advantages by the Treaty, and to pay nothing at all. This appeared to him to be out of all reason. Suppose that it should appear, that there was vested lu:this country, a large sum of mo ney standing in the name of the Regency of Hanover, might they not be expected to contribute some part z of this money, for the honour of having Hanover made a kingdom of ? Was there any reason that this country should pay every farthing of the expendi. tare, while other States had their full share of the gains ? It appeared, however, that we were to be always paying subsidies. It seemed that we were required to pny a subsidy for Russian ships that we did not at all want. If the Committee could hear with perfect complacency of se many millions de twe)ve months, paper had sold at a large discount in Spain. Every mains bad been used to lower and vilify the paper. He was very lately told by a per sou, that he could still buy up mule certificates at 28 per cent. discount, but was afraid of the many forgeries. The muleteer did not know what to do with the paper, and sold it-for:what it wised fetch. The great fault was, a total' want of the examination of accounts. How would such delay tell in the private concerns of any individual or company ? In public affairs, however, examination was put off, so as to be on the average from 12 to 15 years of arrears; and then people could only justify them selves by mustering up an old document, or, per haps, by having preserved their different vouchers. The first thing to be done in this matter was to este- Wish a Committee, to form a proper and adequate Mr. TIERNEY begged pardon for interrupting the Honourable Gentleman, hut wished to know whe ther those two millions were included in the ten mil lions he had just mentioned ? The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER replied, that they were included in it, and that with the eight millions now proposed to be voted, would probably cover the whole of the deficiencies under the head of Army Extraordinaries. He was perfect ly aware that the glorious and extraordinary result of the militury operations during the last year, must in some degree have prepared the minds of every body to eipect, that after the conclusion of the peace, there would hare been a very considerable redaction in the expenditure of the country. He was happy to state, that notwithstanding the conti nuance of the American war, there had already been a very considerable reduction. He estimated tfiat the current expenditure of the country was now less by about two millions a month than it was at this time last year. Of this reduction, about a million and a half was in army expenditure, and the remain. der in our navy. This would naturally lead us to hope, that by still farther reductions, the expendi diture of the country might be brought down to the level of our ordinary means. He thought that it was not too mach to hope that that would be the case, after the present unfortunate war with Ameri. ca should be terminated. While that war, however, should last, the country must look to a continuation of vigorous exertion, and he trusted the Parliament would readily grant the means necessary for such exertion. After the happy termination of the war upon the continent of Europe, and now when we had the means of permanent security in our hands, he trusted that neither the Parliament nor the coun try would shrink from the duties which still remain. ed to be performed, but that they would be ready to, face the difficulties at the present time. He should, without aoy farther observations, propose the rob. lution. Mr. TIERNEY confessed that it was not withosit, considerable regret that he heard, in the latter part of the Right Hon. Gent.'s speech, of the necessity of great exertions to be still continued. After the minded by the Minister, it might show in them system for the regulation of large expenditures.— ' strong nerves, and an ardent seal for their country's The war in Spain began in 1808, and it was only-hi service. He was afraid, however, that out of doors 1813 that an auditor was sent out ; till when, be' a different judgment would be formed. It .was time was told, that the Commissioners defiid any exami for Ministers to learn, that when Parliament was nation.' I,t therefore appeared absolutely necessary, liberal in its greets, it would itself set bounds to its j that examination should be had, and a better system liberality. Their common course was to vote money adopted. for the service of the year, according to the Mi. Mr. GORDON said, that, as he understood what sister's own estimates ; and afterwards, not to bind fell from the Chancellor tif the Exchequer, we were him too tight, they also gave a vote of credit to co. paying a subsidy to Sicily, which, he also understood, ver unforeseen expences. Beyond this, he coneeiv.. was engaged in war with Naples, with which latter ed the Government had no right to go. Although power, as far as he could learn, we were virtually at the military operations were so successful in the peace. It, therefore, seemed extraordinary to sub last campaign, that was no reason why the House sidise. Sicily in a war between her and Naples. We shOuld not enquire into the expence -of them.-- , appeared desirous and anxious to get rid of our, MO., He certainly should enter into the - eiegtilry - with I !ley to owe-power or another. The only hope, of much more good humour than if those operations had economy he had was in his Right lion. Friend on failed. the Treasury Bench (Mr; Huskisson), who had been The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER such an advocate for retrenchment, and who, he observed, that every branch of the expenditure re• trusted, would give good advice to his colleagues. lating to foreign subsidy, had already received the I Tho CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said, sanction of Parliament, with the excegtion of a • that certainly the affairs of Europe were not settled small grant for Hanoverian troops. The credit which till the business of the Congress was finished. He he now asked of the lions, was not a personal are- could not see how a Committee of that House could dit,' but it was to defray an arrear which had already 'little the : audit of the public accounts. If the House been incurred. The debtviss certainly incurred on the . could have done it, it would have done it long ago.— respopsibility of Ministers; bet whatever : were their It was a particular object of Mr. Pitt. His Noble . merits or demerits upon this occasion, he conceived F r ie n d the Ma rqu is o f Lansdowne had done as much that the debt was equally binding upon the pablic.-.- as he could to effect it, when in office ; and all must The Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. Tierney),had allowed remember the assiduous efforts of an lion. Gentle that the work had now been done. For his part, he man (Mr. Batiltes).. It was not the fault of that could have desired nothing better than that the weft House that Oct defects existed. Commissaries in should he done. I Spain had sent in their accounts. How far it was in Mr. TIERNEY denied,that he had used theft. the power of auditors here or abroad to obtain per. presslon ; and said that he could not conceive the feet information i he could not pretend to say.— work as done unless the deliberati on s of.thstgeneral There might be7very considerable fraud lying tinder Congress were over. , ' the shape of even fair vouchers; but he hoped and The CHANCELLOR of the , trusted that no pains, and no exertio n w ou ld b e wan t.. then observed, that as to the liberty. of he ,Ing (*examine and unravel the whole business to the (cared that whether they. talked , or pot s , ; they must very bottom. lie was surprised to hear any thing lik e still pay.—[A lams; 11.1—lie bad no doubt, how. general reflections thrown out on the Commissariat. ever, but that the Right Hon. Gentleman would It was an arduous duty, and it would be a painful' find plenty bf opportunities for talking. He had return to the conscientious and deserving to by classed asked why were we to pay the Hanoverinns emplox. ,e4nong those on whom suipirions might .fall. ed in our army ?.:-The'auswee to Ibis question wal l held the character of a Commissary to be a most honourable one, and deserving, ,the highest reputation. There crimination between objects of Government would be fully repaid, minations, truth was stripped integrity froln dishonesty. it Mr. Burke applicable to this case, ,ef necessity were seldom wise. 'that the system, on the whole, though from want of a previo‘ kdigested and established., there expensive arrangements. There the etpence had been greater that could we have procured cash; the untoward circumstances, ti improving. Nothing showed and ,prosperity of British .commerce should hose such another war knew; and might God agertl tending the war with America yet it conk] not press *race's. as in theicase of the late European miler debts we had nearly ascertaii appeared to remain about seven - dollars. Mr. BARING, in oxplanatii abuse was inseparable from th. sary hired a muleteer for a bit of friend of his, or any other mass, of its nominal value, and broug ment to Somerset-house, and immense fortunes were made. carried to an enormous eater repeated, might have answered. ' Chancellor of the Exchequer had four 'Commissaries had deliver ! but he had not said that th audited or eeamined. As to ling public accounts, if they were Hon. Gentleman, ezaminatio , IHow did all the other powers I such matters ? He believed the: land careful en that subject. affairs? In them, all accouutt audited under the. management 1 in business, as correctly as in tin any merchant. This was a spool' compared to the loose system ture. Mr. Burke having been lected an observation of his or be would as soon attack the prei as the Treasury on the mode of counts. Mr. ROSE entered into a s taken by Mr. Pitt for better accounts. The process had been dually amended, and now scarcer tienal improvement. At any . no possible motive for screen' guilty of peculation. Mr. BARING mentioned intolerable delay which took , public'aceounts, that the acco Brook Watson were not sett) ascribed the difficulty of improl to the -pertinacity of some peep little interests in the observance forms at the F.:chequer,. No rope kept its ecceutiti iti the as this. .Mr. BANKES also thought far from being perfect, and clogged necesary forms. This was so m' the Exchequer, words and figs used, which even those most vef not know the meaning of. Thi rest satisfied till it arrived at . mode of audit which was visible chant's counting-house. Mr. ROSE observed, in explt chequer process did not apply tt had been audited. It, therefore, of the delay. Mr: PONSONBY said, than why the House of Commons had merry ? it would be answered tha had found they would have to pi bine millions, for the service Member were asked, when he for what it was that he had voi millions, was there any one ma. celior of the Exchequer (if indeed would be able to give any more this, that this was paid for the eL, Surely if a more specific and detai be found of explaining to the that they were to vote the poly not be subjected to such danger bestowed. There were& few circa he wished for explanation. He sa which had been laid before the 114 separate articles to the Treaty wi into on the 22d of last October 13 months ago. Yet the presen, that they had been communica There was also the Supplemeu' Chaumont, which had been entered of June last. Now Parliament July ; yet not one word of theT. sion communicated to Partiametit. As the subsidial expences were to he discussed on a future ,day, should not then make any remarks on them. As te• the vote immediately before them they were left is utter ignorance of its application. The Chaseglice of the Exchequer had said that ne one could shack the character of the persons who had been entrusted with the expenditure of the money which was to he voted. How could any one acct.,* these persons ?-- The House was left in entire ignorance of their car~ duct ; but neither could they say that their combat was praiseworthy. All that was said was, that there , had been an expence, which it was necessary to sup , ply. There was one expence which was extraordi nary. He meant the money which was to be paid to, the King of' Sicily. It was said that half the former subsidy was still to be paid to him, beau"' he was not at peace. Were we to pay this menet so long as the King of Sicily chose to continue at war with any one whom he pleased ? Were we to pay it if he made war on our nearest and dearest Ally ? It It might be profitable to the King of Sicily in a finan cial point of view to carry on the war. Now the ear was bet ween the King of Sicily and the King of :Naples, wide whom we were notat war. He was glad to hear that the. expence of the 15,0(X) Hattori,. • • ng, if well sushi& ' re should b e se - 10 7121 . dir t r p r aise e n pf • ra aoidsel; if an saf: o klbd b Y t s . ere lftd ' lllef I t case, that the e fts& it !. He hoped, h s „."'' , would be law one system, sug u t' s i f i •• re might have b ees ere was no doubt +L. than it would ; •bat yet, in spit e d i • the exchange . moreelearly theib e , Immerce. Whyr: as the last, Gida' 1 'The diffieulg ft he bad timer bla ls , arlimpon oarseseini peen war. O w p e s • - :, aecertainecl ; and` (li ft en or eight *We ft 4, titre, remarked Nil s, lie system. Aeon* of paper, andtheasme ru, bought it for a did ught it as a good dose. d- by this sort.ef r • This practice had • ent. Five millioi,ft • I the objects of ma, n o . had stated, that threes r ered in their accomig • hose accounts had bee • the dilficulties veins ere to believe the* ion was itnpractiedis .s in Europe pracerdis ey 'were very ,pa dies" How was it is Wm 4 , its were examined* "--! it of persons comely. the Irrigate coacerasd recies of absohrte We; of our public shell en mentioned, he rest. on this -point. Kepi erogatioes of there/se, of mating Dir theirs. statement of the ligis !r auditing the fa* ten since his dmairs. rcely admitted old& ' rate, Govermaent hri _.l ming any Coannissey • as An instance of tle 4 ! place in auditing tin ..coants of the late Sit tied to this day. de .ovement in ibis branch pie in protecting their T of certain antiertatsi ,stber country in Bs. same dowdy manse • t our system of mit )gged with 'mitres Sc much the case, thatis g e I tilt ter ie hs n raah eaiitistmo: p e rfecti o n House should s t eh h h g : a e r t u t a r fid h s t 44. et e : 1 I. b to accounts until tits re, could be no me* at if it was enquired ad been that night * int it was becausethey rrovide 19, instead of of the army. If a had left the How, nted that night eight an, except the Chi* teed he knew), whir specific account this ex pences of the army? etailed method could louse for what it was blic money, it veva of being improperly rcumstances on witch ;a w among theme(' House, additional aai with Sweden, entered r twelvemonth--ante nt time was theta . eated to Parlianitut nt to the Treaty si ered into on the a t sat till the 30th d 'Treaty was list Se it. As the subsidiary . in a future day, ki rks on them. M ta• !rn they were left is 11. The Chancellor no one could tits& r had been entrusted ley which was to S. use these persons iorance of their coo- fl y iaisisa t c h ihidi a ece t ww t aas h sssa e , er i t r yxhat c ratt n o ndere toshrwedrei. rich was to be paid said that half the is *