The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-06-16 00:00:00

II Fr ow F- I' I Bulgy, Slotley, and Horton, in Kent, which they had as usual ettonerated from the pas ment of the Lat Tax, and also the Poor•Kates before assessable them. The consequence of this had been, that these. Petitioners, being large landed proprietors in the pa rishes, were forced to pay the Pour-rates thus remit ,tell. The House would receipt this woe a use of great hardship, and he was irrffilrtriniTi Fel in _ dined to afford the Petitioners relief. He trusted that having made it public to the Hower; hie esty's lin eament would grant what was asker il lf not, he • should feel it hit duty to call the attention of the Ilonse to some specific remedy. The Petition was only signed ly two persons, but it spoke tie sentiments of the majority of the respectable persons in-that part of the kingdom. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, ''that the lands iu question had been purchased for the use of the Royal Navy, as they were appropriated to the growth of timbers for its service. He could not think there was aoy peculiar hardship in the case of these Petitioners. All Crown lands were exempt from the poor-rates, and it was but right they should be so. Whatever attention the Petition was entitled to, he was convinced it would receive it from his Right Honour able Friend connected with the Treasury. Slr. BARING objected to the practice of growing timbers in this way at the expense of individuals, 'when it might be so much better obtained from mer chants. Sir I. COFFIN did not agree with the Hon. Mem icor ter Taunton in thinking that timbers for tile use of the Navy could be better procured from private sources. For the last 300 years they had bean sup plied from the Royal forests, where Government knew the manner in which they had been grown, which could not otherwise be the case. After some observations from the CHANCELLOR of the Exert 'MUER, Sir E. KNATCHRI7LLsaid, he was willing to leave the matter entirely in the hands of his Right Hon. Frit.nd.—The Petition was then read and ordered to be printed. Mr. ORENFELL moved for a return of all the Rank of Euglaud Notes and Rank Post Bills under Five Pounds, which had been issued since February last.—Ordered. ~_ ~ .e . STATE OF If:ELAND. Mr, GRATTAN inquired whether the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had receive:l any intelligence • from that country, authorising - certain counties to be IE-4:claimed. Mr. C. 6RANT (as we understood hini) said, he had not rerrived intelligence of that description, but he must decline giving any further answer. Mr. CAIA:RArf gave notice, that on Monday next he should submit a motion relative to the produc tion of certain papers respecting the Court of Cllan• eery, which he Lad moved for on the 23d of May, but which were not yet before the House. euaoussweNT or THE 1101'8E. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, it was resolved that the House at its rising adjourn till Monday neKt. 'lre Surrey Poors houses Bill was Rad a third time and passed. IRISH REVENI'It. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Usy fur going into a Committee en the Irish Revenue Inquiry Bill. Sir J. NEWPORT, alluding to the Commission to be sent out to Ireland to inquire into the state of the re venue in that country under this Bill, expressed a hope that it would be composed of men who would not be turned from their purpose by the difficulties which must inevitably be thrown in their way. Honourable Gen tlemen opposite could not be aware of the abuses which existed, from passing visits of a week's duration in that country, during which time the hospitality of their land lords would naturally hide all the distresses of the cuun• try (loin them. There were many abuses connected with this matter existing, which rendered the appoint ment of this Commission of great importance, and he trusted it would he done in a proffer manner. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER entirely agreed with the Hon. Baronet as to the importance of the inquiry to be entered into by the Commission. His Majesty's Government had no other view in appointing this Commission than an anxious desire to come at a full and complete knowledge of the points which it was their ostensible object to inquire into. They were armed with full powers to overawe opposition, and surround themselves with that respect which it was so requisite to the success of their undertaking to command. Mr. CALCRAFT said, that unless a special case were made out, the appointment of this Commission would be a very objectionable ineasure.l The country was already s o much burdened with other expensive establishments, as to be usable to support unnecessary ones from that Mouse • _ The Muse then went into the. Committee. The CH:IIITCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, his lion. Friend (Mr. Wallace) in consenting to be put in the Commission, disclaimed all remuneration beyond his expenses. Mr. Harris also desired no compensation if he were allowed to retain his official situation. With respect to the other lion. Gentlemen, no remuneration was intended to be proposed in the first instance. lle, however, did not conceive, that taking upon themselves a task, the discharge of which must occupy them for a considerable period, and impose on them no small la bour, it could he expected that they should receive no remuneration fi r their services. What they were en titled to, it would be for the House to decide hereafter. The Commissioners would look not to the Crown, but to that Honse, for any reward which they might be consi dered to deserve ; and it would, therefore, be seen, that as muclf security was afforded against official inter ference with time Commissioners as could be desired. Mr. HUME was not aware, that five Commissioners were necessary, and did not understand why the Vire- President of the Board of Trade should be one of them. If he had duties to perform in the office which be at pre sent tilled, he could ill be spared to go to Ireland ; if no duties were attached to his situation, his salary ought to he saved to the country. Another of the Cumniiii sioners, Colonel Harris, held a situation to which be had un.lerstood important duties belonged. He was an Auditor of the Civil List, and in that character received a handsome salary from the public. If duties of im portance were to be performed by him in his present si tnation, could he be spared with this Commission three, four, six months, or a year in Ireland ; and if no duties were connected with it, ought not his salary to be saved ? With respect to another Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Lewis) he must object to his appointment unless he would apse to receive no salary whatever. However high that • • teditistaal might stand in the estimation of the House land he had a great respect for hi m ) b e mus t o bj ec t t o appeinament unless it took place under the agree siege he had suggested. To appoint Members of that Moose to be oa such a CONIIIIISSIOR with a prospect of ratan reniunovation, was really in effect to hold out to them a bribe to bring time ander the influent* of On vsenment.—(Hear.)--Qentlemen might smile at 11(11, :E 8' jeut such+ was the fact—such a poste& *f o reword might expected tooperate as slireotly in thic way he had opposed, sidle grant of a regulai salarv. Mr. F. LEWIS considered that after the remarks which had been made on Its heitiz propose& that - l's name should appear in•the commission, it was neces sary fur him to say something. If he were asked as an individual, lie would be ready to take 'vim himself the duty for nothing, bait a rale could not be laid down in his case which would not extend to others. Was it to be assumed that a Member of that House who was• paid on such an occasion for services, which he Ito neatly and diligently performed, must of necessity be thenceforward so warped in his opinions, that he efuld no longer be trusted. if be thought this was tm, be• assumed, lie could wish the earth to gape and swallow him from the disgrace that would fall on human nature, in the case he had supposed. For himself he would say, that pay him or pay him not, he would honestly perform his duty. He had habits and occupations of his own from which it was to snatch him away, and be was only uilling to give up these iu the hope of being able to do good. As to the q.iestion whether a Member of Parliament ought to be one of the Com missioners, he would say, that were Isis name blotted out, 11, would at once vote for the appointment oll,tosor other Member, as he considered it of irnportanee; . for tarions reason., that some of the Members of 'That House should he included in the Commission. He had no personal wish 011 the subject, and was well content that this House should dispose of the question as they please. Mr. WALLACE stated the gronnds on which he had offered his services to the Commission. Ile had thought, that if compatible with his other duties, 1 which would admit of his absence from London for a time, he could proceed to the place where the pro posed inquiry was to be carried on to ass i st in the undertaking, the public had a right to his service*. In offering to go to Ireland on this occasion, he dis. claimed the affectation of offerirg to serve the coun try gratuitously. Of all principles, that was the last which he should feel disposed to advocate. Such a principle ivoithi he most injurious to the country. All men were not in a condition to offer their services gratuitously, and many of those who had rendered the best services to the nation bail been in a situation to require remuneration. Ile was too honest a man to seek for applause by upholding a principle which he (lid not conscientiously regard as likely to prove conducive to the public good. Ile was willing to go to Ireland to engage in the labours of the Commis sion; awl whatever might be the difficui.ties with which his colleagues might have to contend,—what ever their ultimate success, he wat. confident that no efforts would be wanting on their part to vanquish the one, and to secure the other. . . -.- )Ir. CALCRAF l' must object to the appointment of his Hon. Priced to be a Member of the Commis• sion. It had long been his object to diminish the influence of the Clown in that (louse, and he could not therefore now vote for a proposition which went to increase it. The Hon. Member who had just sat down spots: wills as ousels solemnity of going to Ireland, as if he had been about to pass into an enemy's country. He had spoken on this subject as if, instead of being about to cross the Channel in a steam-boat to a country where he was sure of being hospitably received and esstertained, as if he (sad been going in the forlorn hope. It seemed that the duties of the lion. tientietu.tn's situation as Vire- President of the Board of f rade, did not make his attendance necessary here, ant! so he kindly offered to go on this desperate expedition to Ireland without (imbuing any additional 'enumeration, his expenses being allowed. Ile wished him much pleasure— thought it quite reasonoble that all his expenses should be defrayed, but considering the public to he already entitled to his time, he should have regarded any demand for an additional income as very objec tionable. Ile re•statlll his u!.jections to the appoint ment of his Honourable Friend, objecting as he (lid to the extension of the power of the Crown in that (loose, even in the person of that Honourable lien tleman (Mr. P. Levi'). Ile was surprised that Mr. Harris could be spared, after what hr had heard on former occasions of the impor'ant duties attached to the other of Auditor of the Civil List. He briefly noticed the meths of the other Commissioners. and concluded declaring it to be his intention to take the sense of the House on the motion for placing the 114111 e of Isis lion. Friend (lir. F. Lewis) uo the Commission. 110111 SON lorgEed to say, that the Vice-Pre sident, as well an the Pro... Went lif the Board of Con troul Irtol a go:o(i d:•al to dn. Though one aright be absent for a time by throwing more than a natural share of the business on the other, it by no weans followed that Oro duties which they had to perform were not important, or that one of them could be dispensed with. He considered that going to Ireland as a Commissioner, leis lion. Friend would still be engaged in the performance of duties connected with the trade and commerce of the country. Though the lion. Gentleman made so light of going to Ireland, as if the Commiss:un were but ir party of pleasure, the (tight Hon. Baronet near him could perhaps give him a very different idea of the character of seob•a Commission. For the lion. Gentleman whose Mtge haul been so particularly objected to, he should not have expected any harsh comments on Ida appointment. hut rather that the. House would congratulate itself on obtaining his services. From the eludes which the Commissioners went to perform—from their ex ertions to ele:ttose the Augean Stable he was going to say--(a laugh)—he anticipated great advantages to the country, and was certain that any remuneration whith Parliament might think proper to award would be well bestowed. Lord A. HAMILTON thonght a more proper person could not be named to be on the Commission than his Hon. Friend. lie must, however, oppose his being ap pointed noe of the Commissioners, from his regard for the principle that a Member of that House ought not to be go appointed. He did not say that it was to be laid down that a Member of that House could not receive pay without being warped from his indepem deuce. lint would his Hun. Friend lay down the oppo site principle that those who received pay were to be exempted from all suspicion? He should certainly give his vote agaiust naming a Member of Parliament to be one of the Commissioners. He was fortified in the ob jection be had made by the course takes 11 his Hon. and Learn.) Friend, who, on a former occasion, offering bimaelt to be one of the Commissioners to 'Aquino into the State of &location among the Poor, bad pr to give up his seat in that Klan. If Ministers wished .o have a Member of Pun/moat, why did they not iambs 'ATE:B thn . thief Secretary for Ireland to hint it appeared that be might be _ priety than any other. Mr. IiItOUGHAM rose to correct a mistake into which his Noble Friend had fallen, alluding to bi. ef fering himself to be one of the Education Commission ers. He (Mr. Brpogham) hail offrred to be one of them, but on thr express condition that he should re-' calve no remuneration. He had not offered to give op his seat, but taking the situation without want, he hail slid, that even if it were thought neceit sary that doing this he should give up his seat, eve** then lie should wish to have the refusal of it. He said this, bat be had gone no farther. On the present oc casion he must object to the appointment of his Hon. Friend. It was a relief to him to know that no man from character, talents, and habits of business, wr., fitter to act as a Commissioner than his Hon. Friend, as this very circumstance proved that it tea, the prin ciple only to which he objected—the principle which went not directly but indirectly to increase the in fluence of tl.e Crown in that [louse. It had been said that this appaintment would !save no effect on his Ho nourable Friend. It might be so in his case, but as he (Mr. Brougham) was of opinion that it would have An influence on others, that was enough for him. Mr. 61t1pFELL objected to increase the influence of the Crown in that House, but in this case the appoint ment being but of a temporary nature, and the Hon. Gentleman being only removable (when once appointed) by the House, he should vote for the nomination of his Non. Friend. Dr. PHILI,I3IOItE thought if there ever had been a case in which the Members of a Commission ought to he strengthened by the authority of that House, this of all others was that case. Hu could see nothing coo netted with that Commission that should induce them to decide that the Commissioners should not be paid as in all other cases. lie was of opinion that abler persons than the Gentlemen named to be on the Commission could not hare been selected. Mr. BROWNLOW thought if the sense of the House was taken on the name of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Lewis,) from an apprehension that:he might be unduly influenced through serving on this . commission, that a dieisiou ought also to be called for when the name of the Vice-President of the Board of Trade was proposed, unless it was assumed that he was already so bad that he could not grow worse, which in Isis opinion it would be most unjust and improper to affirm of any Member of that lionse.—(A laugh.)-I{e should have great plessuri in voting fur the appointment of the Honour able Gentleman. Sir I. COFFIN offered a few remarks which were not distinctly heard in the Gallery. Sir C. LONG defended the selection of Commissioners, described Mr. Lushington and Mr. Berens to have been proved most competent by their past gratuitous services, and anticipated is considerable diminution in the expense of collecting the Revenue, and other beneficial results from the appointment of the Commission. Mr. ABERCROMRY objected to Members of Parlia ment being placed on the Commission, as to do this went to create a new class of Officers in that House de pendant on the influence of the Crown. Mr. CR.REVEV thought a great deal of time hail been wasted in panegyric on his lion. Friend. With his character lie had nothing to do, but lie must object to the money of the Crown coining into the pockets of Members of that blouse who were not actually in Office. In the division of the preceding. night he had counted forty-five Members who bad voted who had the money of'' the public in their pockets. lie objected to an appoint ment that went directly or intlirecily to extend the influ ence of the Crown, by giving the public money to Mem bers of that House. Mr. W. SMITH objected to the insertion of the name of his Honourable Frien:l in the Commission. It was true that there was a great difference between a situation like that which it was proposed tl►at his Ho nour ,:fie Friend should boll!, and one from which l►e ►night be removed by the Crown. Those situations from which iudivitkals could not be removed were more valuable than those which were of a different character, and were consequently more likely to he coveted, and therefore more likely to increase the in fluence of those who had them at their disposal. Sir J. NEwPoRT defended the Commission, con sidered the Chief Secretary of Ireland ought by n • means to be placed on i►, and wishing as he did t.• curtail the influence of the Crown in that House, be could not object to its temporary extension in this case, when he contemplated the great benefit likely to be derived from the exertions of Commissioners like those who had now been named. Mr. .9A BERM thought three Commissioners would be sufficient. He was of opinion that more ought not to he anointed than were necessary, and would be content to ask Mr. Lushington and M. Be rens. if, with the assistance of another Commissioner, they did not coercive they should be quite equal to the task imposed on the Commission. The - CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQU ER thought the Commission could nut be better formed than it would he if the names which had been proposed were agreed to. in naming those Gentlemen, the (Severn went had no object in view but to select those who woi:lii most efficiently perform the ditty. Mr. DEN AN called the attention of the Commit tee to a clause which gave the Crown the power of tilling up any vacancy that migl►t occur by death or otherwise. Looking at this, it would be seen that the appointment (tithe Commissioners did uut rest wholly with the House. Ile objected to the proposed appoint trt*itt of me Hen. Gentleman altogether. ill.. HUTCHINSON, though as an Irishman he was grateful for the appointment of such a Commission under any circumstances, said it was impossible for him to hesitate fur one moment in what way to give his vote. He should vote against appointing his Hon. Friend to he one of the Commissioners, be►ng now, as he had ever been, anxious to diminish rather than to in crease the influence of the Crown in that House. Mr. ARERCRONIBY thought if it was r 0: yet de cided what the number of the Commissioners should be, that question ought to be disposed of before any names were agreed to. Mr, 13ROOnEN said no number was mentioned, but five names had been submitted to the Committee. Mr. MABERLY, on the namrs being read over, moved as an amendment. " that the Commissioners should consist of three tivitletnen to be named." The Committee divided :—For Mr. Maberly's Amend ment, 23.—Agninst it. 61.—Majority 56. The Amendment we. also moved. during the absence of strangers from the liallery, for the exclusion of Mr. Frankbind Lewi4's name, upon which the Committee again divided :—Fur the Ameadumet, 31.—Against it, 77.—Majority 46. A Cause was agreed to, after some conversation be- Sweep Mr. Calcraft. Sir J. Newport. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Denman, Dr. PlsiMotors, kc. for preventing the appointment of any Member of the House of Commons, as a Commissioner. in cascara va cuity occurring. finerel other cleans wen thee• I was oriiered to be ret sired a% 'lll o► srrr►t.r. Mr. C. GRANT moved the Order of the Dav for goinc into a Committee to consider of the Supplies for tlieser. •ice of Ireland. ii on ig t ot ooloriddnia!eei.: snit: else A i ; ti and Hon user. havingile 0 ogisomn,e into • C iii h e a C° is In m a n : it d t ec 7 i th t a th i l ist ie r r :T iret . i — h og l as 'e. ami 7e a li fo ll eamt T rm a e nd o r t. l l l M h e enr;sleilitinusilailtnwiosfionPreti presented th which en • his i e s ftl y ttt e ed . " at Mr. IRVIN° said he must dais precedence, nd of t i l t h t e l l 3th i lh a p inr t e roc .H t l oo llaso es i t Cclal p i ll i ac g asp e ll e PP of be i i n e a rtee o n nih ne o ndil th s C e rsi tilini n.sripaisigltitterudeeten"tiebhiwynedenumisialcembeino:n. ytoT:imittle!nnbes:thlearn:rh7onf th m hrs i ec n : ed i4dru.na t eo o trouß b s.t ri thooN t t if los o ayns n aihtmtehweehawasbcsrceibusiness competent of for it H t O I L . so " elb ; le tt: the m C r. om i a tt i t N ee ti l was when the Chairman c p a r red end li at Hon.t o Air. n Gentleman ot i f R ut K t t at FE passed(L a r. said, in rt se a t l )1 lasthwo would u g c h koi had no right to precedence, yet Ise thought, in cogj er it as a matter of courtesy, M. U. ORANT expressed his readiness to Mord n .i. h the suggestion of the last Speaker. Mr. IRVING thanked his Right Hon. Friend, and then proceeded to re-state the ease of °ea. D esfourne The amount of the charge arose from th e l oss o f slaves and certain property in hospitals, at th e cap; ` 4 of Guadeloupe. A contract lead been e n t ere d i nto b y ti French Goys nuient with the above-named and it was screed to be continued upo n the same term, by the British. This agreement had not been fulfille4, and the lotsoreasioned thereby was the cause of theiw r. sent claim. It had been said that th e great l apseg time which had occurred before the claim was made, was a reason why it should not be allowed. If this u ere true, what would be said of the fact of the French Government haring recently paid off debts tothe uno in of 4 millions, many of which were of a much more an. rient date, and of a similar nature to the claim of Gm Desfourneaux. This conduct had reflected the greatest honour upon the French Government; and if the Com mittee refused to agree to the present resolution, he should feel that the character of this country would greatly suffer by such a course. The lion:Member then read various documents in support of the claim. lie concluded by moving, "that a sum of 20,0116/. Its. 6d. be granted and paid to teen. Etienne Desfourneaux, as a compensation for the losses and damages sustained by him at the capture of tinailaloupe, in 1794." Mr. BANKES objected to the grant, and considered the claim to have been one which ought never to have been referred to a Committee. Ile thought that Se Right Hon. the (Chancellor of the Exchequer had al. forded too much facility to the revival of a subject which had already been most properly disposed of by the decision of himself and the Lords of the Treasury. Ile could, therefore, see no foundation for the Rem. lution, and should feel it his duty to oppose it. Mr. IRVING, in reply, contended, that the former Reports were not binding upoe the noose. Mr. GRENFELL opposed the motion. After the de cided.negativa which had been put upon the claim by the Treasury, he was really surprised that his Majestv's Ministers did not rise and meet the present motion with indignation. if a change had taken place in their opi nions, they should avow it, and state the reason of that change. Itrith every respect for the House, be could not but avow that lie thought the Treasury a fitter tri hunal for discussing the present claim th an the He,therefore, should move that 1,4881. isesabstitst= the original sum. A MEMBER, whose name we could not leers, sup ported the original motion, and moved that it be allowed with interest. Ile thourht the claim one of the most equitable ever made on that House. Mr. K. IK/UOLAS, in explanation of the conduct of the Committee, said, they had examined the claims ups equitable principles, without reference to the decision of the Treasury. l'he Treasury, in fact, had admitted the justice of a p ert of the claim ; and, under all the circum stances, he thought the Committee could not possibly come tu a decision different from that disclosed by their Report. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said it was a new doctrine to him that the House would be guilty of a crime in not steeling to the Report of its Committee. Ile thought the claim might have been discussed with more advaa tage to thee cause of truth had it been brought forward at the peace of Amiens, in ISM ; and lee thought no tribunal less competent to pronounce upon such a claim than a Committee of the House. Ministers were re sponsible, but a Committee of the House were not. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished the House to judge of what course ought to be taken by the English Government when the claimant appealed from their decision to that of his own Court. It dies became a question between nation and nation, and it was not to be forgotten that the French Government had acted with great liberality in deriding upon British dais,. It was thought proper, under these cirrumatanes, to bring time question under the consideration of Parlia ment. Ile thouOt the Committee had acted rid' fair nets and impartiality, and lee trusted no lion. Member would oppose their Report without making himself per fect master of tl.e subject. For his own part he hsd heard nothing to induce him to dissent from the Amen of the Committee. Sir FRANCIS OMMANEY opposed the motion, and said he should vote for the swallows Mr. WARRE said, the Coinmittee bad (REMO stated there was no written evidence of the contract upon which the claimant relied. If claims like these, at the distance of 26 years were tb be allowed, he should cease to wonder at the expense of' our wan. Mr. FORBES rose amid loud cries of " Questi"." As Hon. °sidemen had patiently listened to many speeches against the claim of an absent individual apply' ing for justice ; he trusted they would bear a very f.w words in support of it.—The Committee bad dicidol that the claim was founded in equity, and he theta& it would be an imputation on the justice of the House sot to act upon it. After a few other obserrstions in support of the claim. the lion. Member concluded, by expressing his intention to vote for the original motion. Mr. W. SMITH said he did not agree with either side of the House. He thought only a small part of the claim had been proved, but that part h e thoe g ht should be paid with interest. Thee sum to which h e considered the claimant to be entitled, was 3,209'. Mr. T. WILSON spoke in favour of the ori g in' motion. I with Mr. Alderman WOOD said, he rarely agree. the Chancellor of the Exchequer i n votin g p ublic iao. ney. bat in the present cosi• he should vote fear the in the Rouse l ot thought it would be dishonoure dde l i a b ...g d e a r th s u e ni decision. T i e f F r i e h n e e Governmentli Hoose o f• had own agree d ias to be Coto m ac :. uipownatihEe wishedd to know whether the C n iti nt was itt s was a select or an ordinary Comm i ttee . If. Select Committee, Committee, he would rot e for the original P' re dos. Mr. IRVING said it wss a Select Cornroittee• Strirres were them °Octet' to withdraw, and tI4 kbe *la To reed to, and the R e p or t assnfd lath (no re- Monday. 11 - 03IMI ill