The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-06-19 00:00:00

111 . 9 remarks could have that effect. as his very —(Hear.) Colonel WOOD saw by the Bill, that nn'y horses used for the' purposes of husbandry werr to be ex cepted from sthe operation of the tax. Now there were great numbers of very poor persons io Wales who got their livelihood by carrying ore from the pits month with horses which were their only property. He certainly hoped that the exceptions would be ex tended to them, as it would be relieving a very honest and industrious class of persons from a pressure whitfh was very heavy upon them. Mr. S. IWOIITLEY said, that he had been prevented from attending the House upon the recent discussions 'Ton this Bill, but if he had been present he should have most heartily given his vote in . favour of the repeal. At the same time be did not think himself liable to the charge of inconsistency which had been made acting those who voted for the Estimates and not for the Tax. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen made his propositions to the House founded upon his no n statements, which were contradicted by his Ma jesty's Ministers. Now here were two parties whose statements were opposed to each other ; and he (Mr. S. Wortley) and his friends had been in the habit of giving their confidence to Ministers. This he took to he a very different case to the repeal of the Hus bandry Horse Tax, where every man exercised his own judgment as to its necessity or otherwise. Lord MILTON did not know whether his Hon. Friend spoke for himself only in the explication which he bad just given, or whether he spoke as the' orean of any party or corporation. That explanatioe seas certainly fair as applicable to himself, but he f Gold not see how it applied to other gentlemen around Li. Hon. Friend, who bad said that the exettions of tb' Hon. Member for Aberdeen would be productive of mach good. If those Gentlemen had voted for the propositions of that Hon. Member in the early part of the Se.sion, instead of now coming down at the latter end of it to bestow a few words of commendation upon his efforts, they would have rendered him the means r.f doing still more good than they bad now to give him credit for. He did not at all agree with the Hon. Member for Taunton, that the credit of the country would he impaired by the taking off of this tax, he calyx he was of opinion that this reduction of half a mann of revenue would be productive of half a million of economy in the general expenditure. It mould operate as a benefit for a short period, until an equalization of the capital of the country should be Liought about, and then it would act as a general dimitiutian of the pressure upon the country. He Lad, upon previous occasions, mentioned his &tenni s.ation to bring forward the subject of repealing an other tax, which be should not now be able to do sub stantially, and he should therefore decline it altogether for the Session. The landed interest could not now complain that they were not represented in that House. And when any future corruptions iu the representation should come to be reformed, he trusted tat Parliament would bear in mind the repeal of the Husbandry Horse Tax, and the manner in which I:,at repeal was accomplished. In another Session, he would put it to the Honourable Members who voted for this Bill, whether something ought i.of to be done for the manufacturing interests.— respect to that manufacture with which he was I: atieularly connected, he contended that it would be an act of policy to grant it some relief and protec tion. They ought not to abandon a manufacture s: Lich was so ancient in the country, and which had been co valued by their ancestors, to be the prey of c:•ery Chancellor of the Exchequer who might think proper to impose taxes upon it. He did not think they were much indebted to Ministers for the abandon ment of this tax. The Right Hon. Gentleman thought the arose of the noose had not been decidedly asser tii el by the first division. Now be was at a loss to by what Parliamentary proceeding the Right Hon. Gentleman bad since ascertained that sense to be elteidediy against the tax. Perhaps there had been some meetings of representations from great men in power, by means of which it was very easily to con ceive that the Right lion. Gentleman was satisfied of the hopelessness of his cause. This would be the more apparent if tlley looked at the composition of the 'majority anal the minority upon the late decision. However, he rejoiced extremely that the tax was to be repealed, aa•d lie trusted that in the next Session something would be done to relieve the manufacturing iuterests. Mr. 600 CH said, that the Noble Lord seemed to have applied some of the remarks in the earlier part of his speech to him, in consequence of what he had said of the activity and industry of the lion. Member for Aberdeen. lle still thought that he, or any other Member who took pains to examine where reductions might be made, and pointed them out to the House, war deserving of its thanks. The Noble Lord had, however, upon three or four occasions, thought proper to catechise him in that House. But be would tell the Sohl:• Lord that not all the blocri of the Fitzwil- Lams put together should make him alter his opinion, or prevent him from keeping a straight for.tard course when he hviieved himself to be doing that which was tight. With respect to the repeal of the tax he be lieved that it would he productive of the greatest ad vantage to the country, and therefore he had given it his support. Mr. LOCKHART thought that the repeal of the tax would be attended with very considerable benefits to the farmer. If he had considered it • mere frac - Carnal reduction, he should nut have thought it worth acceptance. He was not therefore one who was likely to come forward at any future time to say that no boon had been granted to the agricultural interests. Mr. CRIPPS congratulated the House upon the re peal of the tax. He wished to know whether the re peal was to take place immediately, or next year. The Supplies having been granted, he thought it would certainly be unfair to call for a reduction of the Tax at present. He supposed that it must take place on the 6th of April next. Mr. PEEL must beg leave to dissent from the gr. merit tone of congratulation which seemed to prevail uric the repeal of this tax. He did not believe that tto real permanent and effective interests of the coun try could be relieved by any measura tending to ope vate against the public credit, and that particularly at a time when great exertions were making to tester, the ancient currency of the realm.—(Hear.)--He usustfiartbat . be should have felt himself ►et}ai in coadeuney . .. afar Tidos for the estimates, So kayo sop - 111E_ ported the taxes by which they were to have been rea lixrd.— (Hear.) Sir C. BURRBLI, expressed his surprise that the Right Honourable Gentleman who spoke last should come down to the !louse to oppose the Bill upon the present occasion, without having heard any of the arguments for or against it upon the previ ous debate. Mr. PEEL explained. He had never before beard that the passing of a measure one stage from a final decision upon it, which prevented any Member from expressing his sentiments upon it at any subsequent stage.—(Loud cries of Hear')—He thought he had de livered his sentiments to the House in as temperate language, and in as few words ae possible, and he was therefore at a loss to know the cause of the Hon. Baro net's reinarks.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GRENFELL was at a loss to know by what meansthe Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant to fill up the deficiency occasioned by the repeal of this tax. One method-suggested itself to some per- sons, which would he one of very great injustice ; namely, the application of all the redactions to be mad• in the course of the approaching year. Another was to reduce the amount from the Sinking Fund. He wished to ask whether the repeal of the tax would have the effert of reducing the sum laid out in stock fur the reduction of the National Debt ? Sir J. NEWPORT thought the question to be un necessary, as the advanced state of the Session would render any other way of clearing t i bc deficiency qtite impo‘sible. Mr. ORENFELL was anxious to hear from the Right Honourable tient:man the nature of his in tention►. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that be utsderstoo;l the question of the Hon. Gentleman to be, whether the amtunt of the tax would be taken from the stuns employed in the purchase of stock by the Commissioners fur tl►e Reduction of the National Debt ? He ►hould answer, certainly not. In the first place, hecan::e the reduction would be made from the Consolidated Fund in tl.e gross, and not from the par ticular fund to which the Hon. :11ember alluded. And in the next place, because the deficiency intuid for the moat part nut be created in the revenue of the present year. (The Right Hull. Gentleman then made some observations upon the Bill, which were for the most part inaudible in the Gallery.) He stated some rea sons why it would he inconvenient to commence the re peal fron► any but the spring quarter. It should be dated front the sth of April either in one year or the other. nolonbtedly if he was to chose, he should say the sth of April, 182!. The Right Hon. Gentle man then alluded to the operation of the Bill with re gard to person, who lead compounded for their horse taxes, and to those small farmers in whose favour a Bill had been passed during the Session, exempting them from the duties on husbandry hones. Chases must of necessity be introduced to provide for these circumstances. Mr. CL ItWE said that it had always been his in tention to date the repeal from April last. He th.aight he could answer the difficulties raised by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of Exchequer, by proposing to make a new Assessment of the Ag:icultnral Horses, by which means all persons ovoid be enal,led to make proper returns. That he thought would he a com plete remedy for all the objections of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He thought that the satisfaction of the country at the tone and spirit with which the Noble Marquess had met the question, trothi he ennttider,tbly damped if the measure were not carried into immediate operation. Culotte! WOOD expressed his hope that the caws of those persons whom he had preciously mentioned :%001, be considered in the Bill. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY, in a tone of voice not generally audible, expie4sed his doubt ef the practicability •f having an extra Assessment made. Mr. CI,RWII4 and Mr.Scar.LETT said a few words. which were quite inaudible from the noise which pre v*d in the !louse. r. S. WORTLEY wished to all; bin Noble Friend (Lord Milton) whether he now meant to brine forward a proposition relative to the Wool"l ax, of which he bad given notice? Lord MILTON, as we nnarratood him, exp . d his intention of oithdrawing the subject for the pre sent. r. S. WORTLEY thought the determination of his Noble Friend to be judicious. Mr. CURIVEN said, that as he was anxious , to meet the feeling evinced by the Noble Marqness, he would leave the Bill alzogether in the hands of himself and Colleagni s, with the understanding that one quarter should he given to them, so that the repeal siionld commence the sth of July next. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that in the situation in which he then stood, lie hail no choice but to accept the Hon. Member's offer. Mr. CURWEN felt that his 'Majesty's Ministers had acted tit:At handsomely, and he therefore gave up the Bill to . hem, wishing teat they should have the credit of passing it through the House.—(A laugh.) Mr. BROUGHAM reslly felt it necessary to rise fur the purpose of defen.'ing his Majssty's Ministers from the kindness of his Hon. Friend the new Chan cellor of the Exchequer, to whom all eyes were now• turned as the repealer of the taxes. He for one was of opinion that Ministers were entitled to no credit for the repeal of this tax. It had been wrung from them by the House, and to the House he should feel all his gratitude to be owing, as one of those who were ex tremely anxious that the tax should be done away with. He neither agreed with those who said that it would be of no advantage to the farmer, nor with others, who represented it as being calculated to weaken or impair the public credit. The public credit would not be af fected by the estimates having already been voted, and the tax afterwards repealed ; because it would be re collected that Ministers on a former occasion brought in a set of estimates, subsequently to which taxes to a large amount were repealed, the estimates were with• drawn and a new set introduced much lower than the first, although they had been declared to be upon the very lowest scale of reduction. Mr. COLDURSIE said that the deficiency would oot be experienced until the next year, as the assessed taxes were always a year in advance. We understood the Bill to Le then committed pro firms, and the report ordered to be received on Wed nesday seat. COCRTS JUSTIeIt IN IRELAND. Mr. S. RICE mo*d the Order of the Day far the House resolving itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take into consideration the 9th Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire Imo the Courts of Justice in Ireland, he now 'earl. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY thought it would be advisable to postpone thi, subject until Fri day. The papers relative to it had only been printed and distributed that morning, and Members could not he properly acqvainted with their contents. Mr. S. RICE had no objection to comply with the Nob'e Lord's request, if he could be convinced that the subject would come on at a time when it could be dis cussed with advantage. After a few words from Sir J. NIWPONT, Mr. Wirs , :r, Mr. Rice and Captain 01.11140 T, the Order was pu•rponed to Friday next. GRANT TO THE DUKE OF CLARFNCE. The filminess of LONDONDERRY moved the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the Com mittee npnn the Orant to his Royal Ilighness the Duke of Clarence. Mr. HUME wished to make a few observations be- fore the Report was brought up. lie thought that iu the present state of the country it was necessary that some limits should be made for grants like that now under consideration. The allowances of late years to the Royal Family had been quite inconsistent with the means of the country. The Ciril List at the present period, taking all the circumstances connected with it into consideration, was greater than it ever had been in the most prosperous or extravagant time. 24,0001. a year was the sum allowed to the other junior branches cf the Royal Family out of the Consolidated Fund, and the Duke of Clarence's should be made up to that amount, and no more. If he received any allowance beyond that, it ought to be from the Pension Lists placed at the diposal of the Crown. He had no ohjec• tion that his {loyal Highness should be put on an equal forting ith his Royal brothers; and if his Ma jesty should think proper to give a preference, he might give it out of the Pension List. But for him self he was free to sly that he saw no reason whatever for aoy partiality, With respect to the arrears he should reserve any thing he had to say on that subject until the coining up of the Report. The lion. Mem ber concluded by snoring a Resolution, which, after stating the present allowance of the Duke of Clarence, declared, that 3,51101. would be a competent addition to that allowance ; but that any further addition ought at all events to be made out of the English or Irish Pension List. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, that no grant could be made out of the Pension List fur any sum exceeding 1,2001. The 2,5011/. a year was a grant to the Duke of Clarence in early life. The House had originally con,rarted the amount of grants from the Peusi,m List, in order that it might exercise a greater power over the Consolidated Fund. He really thought the lion. Member sronkl himself withdraw the amendment. Sir I. COFFIN said he r.•as personally indebted to his Royal Iligliness--(a laugh)—for every thing he po-scssed. He was not ashamed to own it. His Royal Highness had entered very early into the service and b►rl smelt powder too. Every young . man that had originally embarked with him was now an Admiral or had died in the service of his country. There was no in the service ►cure master of his profession, and lie tho:►ght the Royal Parsonage ought therefore to be protected. 'l•he lion. and Galla►►t Member said l►e should vote for the t rant and the arrears also. Mr. CI:RIVEN said the motives of the Gallant Mem ber tli.l him honour, but it could not be d►sguised that every Gentleman in the country u•as obliged to give up a part of his income, and it would not be too much to ask the Royal Family to share in the burthens of the country. Ile thought, however, that the whole pro reeding was irregular, as it ought to have been pre. ceded by a Message from the Crown. This was his first objection, but it' it should be round untenable he should certainly vote against the Brant. Mr. IAWKIIART said that time had already made an additional Grant fur the Duke of Clarenee. Could any Gentleman deny that 211,1100/. was not an income which, at the present t►::►r, %%Mail. with economy, meet every possible expense? . splendid appearance was scarcely necessary for Royalty, as ►t commanded respect iu itself. He really thought :NINO/. a-year under these circum stances was equal to a not:lit:al 30,000/. a•year arising from a lauded estate. He could not assent to any addi tional grant, and still less to the arrears. Mr. 3IONCK spoke against the grant, but in atone of voice which rendered hint almost inaudible. He thought the annual vote equal to a grant of 100,000/., and lie put it to the House whether, in the present state of distress, they would grant so large a sum. Ile foily agreed with the last weldor in the argument raised against the grant, by the altered value of money. Mr. HUME the n said, he should not at present divide the House. Hs would press the 4Astancr of his motion in a future stage. The amendment was risen put and negatived, and the Report was brought up and read. Mr. HUME addressed the Chair, and wished to be in formed in what way be could take the sense of the House upon both points—the Urant, and the Arrears. The SPEAKER said, that any Member might move an amendment upon the Grant, and the question of the Arrears might he raised upon a motion for altering the date from which the Grant was to take effect. Mr. CURIVEN then moved that the Resolution of the Committee be read a second time that day three months. Mr. BEAUMONT, in seconding the amendment, ob served, that he owed no debt to the Duke of Clarence, but he owed a duty to the people of this country, and in the present state of distress he could not vote for the addition of one shilling to the public burthi ns. Mr. BEECHER said a few words against the grant. Mr. ABERCROMBY said, that he was disposed to agree to the vote for 6000/. a year, he must rote against the amendment of the Member for Cumber land. Mr. RICARDO and Lord MuToN shortly spoke to the same effect. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House divided upon Mr. Curwen's Amendment, when there appeared— theilmendment, 18—Against it, I.ll—Majority 126. On onr re-admission to the Gallery we found Mr. Mass on his legs speaking in favour of a reduction. He then moved as an amendment to the grant, that the vote be reamed to $,500/. Mr. SLICE objected to the amendment in its pre •pnt shape, as it left the Crown a power to make up the 6UOOI. mat of the Pension List. it. 111KNAL thought his lion. Friend had mis. ()scrim the Amendment. It merely reduced without L die.tring to the Crown. He loliettd est when th e 6000 f. was originally vested, it did not enter into tun temptation of the House that the Doke of Clarvns e then enjoyed %SOO!. a year more than either uf his younger brothers. Mr. P. MOORE ' , aid the vote came before the Hom e in a crooked, underhand, and nnparliamentary It ought to have been brought before the House b y . a Message from the Crown. It was by no means a ma t . ter of course to revive an old grant ofa former Session. Parliament had already provided for the Royal Family in a liberal and elegant manner.—(A laugh.) Mr. CALC RAFT assured his Hon. Friend the Men. her for Itichester (dr. Bernal) that the grant of 2,500/, a year had not escaped the attention of the House when they came to the vote of ISIS. On that occasion it was recollected that the younger brothers of his Royal Highness had professional arlvarrtages which he had not. He (Mr. C.) thought hi mse lf pledged to make good the entragement of Parliame n t, and Le therefore should vote for the Arrears. He thottiht there was no neeetNity for a message from the Crown, as tire vote stool recorded on the Journals of the House. Mr. CREEVEY supported the Amendment for the reduced vote, an.] contended, that there wp re funds at the divosal of the Crown from which the sum might he made up to 6,0001. Mr. DEN MAN submitted, that as three was no mes sage from the Crown, the House could make no grant at all. He had himself consulted the Journals, and h. found that all that bad passed before had taken place in a former Parliament, and in a Committer only.— (Here there was a general appeal to the Chair.) The SPEAKER thought the Hun. Member was mis. taken. A Report was made to the House in the rear 1S IS, and a discussion took place upon it, although no Rill bad been brought in upon it. He ►!id not feel the weight which had been placed tir-o t!►e di,- tinction between the two Parliaments. The Ite m d l 6, 4 a•as s till a vote to the House of Commons. His tyt- Mon, however, was supported by higher authoritr.— In the year 18111, upon a Message from the Crown respecting. other hranche: of the Royal Familt, a vote was passed in favour of the Duchess of Cum berland, although she was not included in the Autendutent.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. MAXWELL said, he felt himself under the re cessite of voting against the A rrearv. Mr. Hume and 3lr. ELI.( e mutually explained. Strangers were then orde►ed to withdraw, and the House divided upon Mr. Hume's Amendment, when there appeared, For the Amendment, 30—Against it, 157—Majotity 137. Upon our readmission to the gallery, we found Mr. BERNAL on his legs, protesting against the House granting the arrears moved to be voted to the Duke of Clarence. He concluded by moving as an Amendment, that the additional ineotue of 6,011111. a-year, granted to his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence, commence from April N2l, instead of loan April 181 M. The Marquess of lA3NDONDERRY began by com menting on the eontntencement of the speech which the Honourable Member had just made. The Illooonrable Member charged him with coming to Parliament, and claiming the a for the Duke of Clarence. Ile had, on the cutitraa v, always said that the rote ought not to be separ.sted, because it was not a case in which there was any question of arrears, but simply of as original grant, isroposeit now to be put in force. The saw in question ought nut to be viewed as arrears, bat merely in the light of a retrospect of the grant. The House had always been in the habit of exercising an equitable discretion in similar cases of grants, as to tlae date at which the saute should begin. And he mnst take lean to say, that Hors. Gentlemen opposite should not re %erve their scruples on this head for particular persons and orrasions. He could refer to a late occasion, when they certainly were not exhibited, but so far the contrary, that they were willing to grant an ac cumulation of arrears. When her Majesty was to be pro vided fur lately, au Honourable Member opposite said, he would not hear of the Queen's refusal to accept the provision offered by Parliament. He was Itarsallang, 11. mm r, to leave it in the hands of the Crown, and pro osrd the provision should be annually deposited in the Exchequer, leaving her Majesty to take it up whenever she chose. Thus twenty years after, she might have taken the whole accuuntlation. Her Majesty's ;inquiry was dated from the time of the late King's death, when she became Queen Consort. He called owns Parliament to do no more than they bad already dune on many urcasions. When an annuity was granted to any Officer, or individnal, for any great public ser vice, they were always carried to the time when tin service hail been done. It was then but equitable that his Royal Highnese should not now suffer the loss Of that his sefolcuial, from hotmerable motives, bad is• &Iced him before to refuse. Ilis Royal Highness felt that lie mold nut reside in this country with that is come, and maintain the dignity of his station AS &Prince of the Blood Royal, without involving himself in debts beyond his power to liquidate; and it was highly ho nourable to his feelings that he chose the only alter native presented to him, of living on the C o mities!. where he might he able to spare the addition to lily income offered by Parliament. Those, however. sde• supposed that his Royal Highness had saved meal during the year he spent abroad were mistaken ; tut tis Consequence of his travelling expellers it was a year of increased expenditure rather than of retrenchment. The manner in whirls his Royal Highness had passed h is time abroad was Ruch as could not fail to elevate Aim in the opinion of the House. Under these circumstances. he felt persuaded the House would not encourage the amendment of the Hon. Member. Lord MILTON said this was strictly a (Pleat . " o f arrears, and soasething might have passed since the Resolution and the bringing in of the Bill to induec the douse to change its opinion—non eumetat—be cause the Dense of Commons, in ISIS, was disposed to make that grant; that 111 1521 it should be so dis posed. He thought there svas something incoutpAs about this mattor. They ought to hese had a o'er sage from the Crawls, and nut be referred to the in complete transaction of a former Session. Ile admired however the assertion of a Noble Lord relative to the manlier of antedating annuities to Officers or persons who had rendered great public services. But tit cases were diflitrent, for in such cans the House was not involved in tt.e dilh:ulty were, not knowing that the giant ba d the sauctioa el the Crown. which in this car e- the y e ail the present were different, inasnincti lit that the . g ne r 3 o 1 i r is ' C c : i n: u " c r t E o N f t h h e7 ilt Majestyihin ca s e s ° : I h u e n r t j jl " e l i ot a . up 15,000/. a-year, which Pa;liasnent was ready 8o future pecuniary transaction. He stionbl King s grant, deserved to be taken into tsesiderat.iku:stoisk:: what had been done with the residue of clic late King Clarencemoney, money, as be taw 110 tearlyn if the Dis..t o . 1r•. , .'• ~~