The Statesman. — London, England, 1814-11-22 00:00:00

, ;, -. 7 - ~. .. __ "~. Lord A LMERSTON said, 1r • that if an account 4.lerritor • . 'b H It 4 coutitryltaPlorihump. judgMe'ikt of these lawyers', ,he said that the King •y s was II WHIC r. .itatiiitt thd the number of troops in Belgium' w as gieen,-e n quiri t is' tonshire. 'They also had proposed two conditions was not cuncdived legally to possess the power to AMERICAIi PAPltillri .. • t p /V re e p ro osed Ya b ck might arise as to the number employed in Gerioa, iln: is 'a tine on a non—a pacification of the Ame- retain one . part of' the/ inititii-'and •to 'disband the •• - •• --40 0.'-- th ig e v il en r i i n ti g sh iip neg sl o ' ci t a t t t o e r i e .., • ... ..; the !onion Islands, in America. The House had at i !vicanS vvith• the Indians,. and the erecti on of In in- other : that by law his Majesty. was not authorized term sTh t •.• • •. : l. The claim of the British fo take their oven seamen times been informed of the number ottroops at home dependent territory for theinslianeout of the grOund to call out the militia of Northumberland or Devon- t., from American Zesseh. t 2. A definite settlement of ~ nanvel... an d the number of those abroad, but never of the which the Americans claimed, . Then a ne w front Shire, or that of any Other - ioun y in particular, but distribution more minutely. ' tier was required for . ourselves. O n the s e points the militia gerrerally'elid It .WaS obviously abardship the boundary line of the Indiu m ' t e r r it ory -- n ot td Mr. TIERNEY said, that as far as his memory the President had no power to negociate, of neces- to one or more regimeets .otosilitia to be .eompflled be altered by purchase or otherwise; ser ved him there were twenty rases where the general - sity they were submitted to Congress,- On trifling i to serve while others were disembodied. 3. A ,revitiffe • distribution of the troops had been stated. He did points-the President might negociate. It had been ! Mr. BATHURST denied that this Wasth 0 t In- municati 'by land 'b . - of the boundary line to facilitate the British cOmue 4. The military bcrupation of the Laket by the ' n ot enquire, however, as ,to the number of troops in said that it would have been - inconvenient to have stance of such a proceeding ; on fOrMer' 'o C Cc r lons onetwern Ilatirai and Quebec; Belgium, that he already knew, but what part of made known the state of the negociation. He had only particular regiments had been eiktied out. the number there employed was to be taken out of no wish that any thing that had not been made public I Mr. WHITBREAD - asked, when ? ,theas,for vommercial pstrposes i • • British only I—leavlng to the Attcaus the use of th e 201,000 which they were then voting. Did the should be communicated to the House. He should ; !Elie CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER.— Americans to the Newfoundland fistitity ; but not to gs The right tb the Noble Lord think that it was never necessary to state have been content, as he had been formerly to have lln 17gt• cure their.fish on the shores of the British Coloniel • , • . .. the groued of a demand for a force, but that as many stated that he was opposed to designs of Conquest ; ! Colonel WOOD said, that the Hon. - Gontleman's without an equivalent —remarks as follows cum were to be given as were asked for? . 4' • but what was time inconvenience now to make known declaration, that it was contrary to law to keep t he ir •• - ' l— , hi Such . are the eutlines, as we can collect the% by The CIIINC:ELLOR, of the KICHEQUER s'd the at , real state of the Negotiation ? With such pre- militia embodied, must materially add to the dissa. a, sty perusal. What shall we say to them?' lii • that the Rigel Ho n . Gentleman would find in the tensions as had been attributed to us, we had nothing ' tisfaction exPressed• by the men. When the motion the first place, candour compels us to confess we dd e a ses he hag referred to, statements delivered in at to look for but a continuance of war. He would ,of which an Hon. Member (Sir S. Romilly) had given not see i n them Those insolent preteusiens Which •yes. bne time respectiog the distribution of the forces it venture to predict, that • we should never sign a peace • notice should be discussed, the law on the subject ter4y stared us in the faxe. Our iitformatien *as borne former period, respecting which the House was while we persisted in the demands which had been would he fully ascertained. both imperfect and incorreet. Those more resembled desirous of enquiring ; but prospective statements held forth, and if the war was carried on with the Mr. WHITBREAD thought it his dutrto state, the conduct of a horse-dealee, than the dignified pro. bed never been nestle. But perhaps it would satisfy design of enforcing them, unwarranted byaw we should incur great ex. that thiS measure was wholly l • • posals of one independent nation to another. These the Right Hon. Gentleman to be reminded, that he pence, and fail in the end. Was there no incon- He had read the statute with the greatest attention, ;before us offer, if you please, a hird Sergi& ; terms had stated the number of troops employed under the venience in such a state of things . ) lt was not ex- and his opinion was, that the militia ought not to be Convention was 75,000, end that 15,000 Hatioserians troardinary, when extravagant pretensions on oar . kept embodied. think, presume upon absoleite dishonour on our part. certainly not to be accepted : but they do not, I • were in British pay on the Continent, forming part part were stated to have been conditions sine qua non e I The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not entertain L et us candidly consider, in brief terms , their a of that force . that he should desire to hear the fact denied or an.m l ' the same opinion. He considered that the proceeding lion Let . u a s r e take t t n h o e vr i il l af for r ttbheey first stand. t i(n .e Our. m Adm ini . st t ra d . can t. a c u n Ia obtainot n u n e t a . Mr. WII IT BREAD said, that the Chancellor of theisticated . As to the maintenance of the 75 000 ! was perfectly legal. The time would come, when the Exchequer and the Noble Lord had puzzled them. troops on our part, and a greater force on the part ' of law on this question would be discussed, • and he , with the certainty, that they nev ' er selves with finding reasons to avoid an answer, which the other great Powers, he thought the Treaty most should then be prepared to show, that his Majesty's ' Treaty while they insist on pretecting the sta in sct e at last in a very sly way had been given. So it turn. improvident. The only danger apprehended could I Ministers were justified in the measures they had pur- of Great Britain on board our merebant vessels r and ed out, that . there were 60,000 British troops on the he from France, and if such apprehension were well ; sued. . . Continent, nr that we intended to cheat the Allies by founded, it was most impolitic to have given her the Mr. WHITBREAD , said, that many ' lawyers, I venture to affirm, that are prepared to relic stipulating for a number which we had not main- possessions which the Allies had yielded t o her, till whom he had consulted, agreed in his opinion; bat quish this pretension. they Tsqustin then, presents tained ; a proceeding too disreputable and dishonest the a ff airs of Europe were settled at the General - ; this was not the first time that he and the Learned !no obstacle to a peace, although made a sine qua [non; in English, an indispensable condition. to warrant a supposition that it was adopted. Since Congress. Gentleman had differed on points of law. then aim answer had been given to the vestion of his , Mr. STEPHEN still insisted that America had de- After some farther conversation between Mr. Pon- 1 "As to the article respeciing the Indians take it , Bieht Hon. Frieed, and since he intended to continue parted from the usual conduct of civilized govern- sonby, Lord Palinerston and Mr . Tierney, the sum . as you will, whether as respects territory, or as re r 'the enod old practice of putting questions, he should : ments, in publishing Papers before the negotiations was agreed to. . I " spools the .Indians, or, lastly, as respects the two again enquire at a time when the House was voting : was terminated. It was alma moved, that 85,0001. should be grant- i negotiating Powers themselves, it cannot be listened 'so lair a sum for military purposes, whether an I Mr. PONSONBY asked, of what use the nego- ed. for General Officers,. not holding the ranks of to fora single moment. First, as to territory :—As es,im•ite of the expence of repairing the fortresses in ciations could he if we made demands which c ou ld Colonels.—Agreed to. Irespects Great Britain and the United States, it was 'the Nelserlends had been made, amounting to ten ; not be allowed. The President was compelled, Also, the sum of 200,0001. to defray the charges 1 : by the' reaty of' Peace settled and agreed hetoeen "mil ions, and ohether his Majesty's Government had ; either at once to break off the negociation, or to of General, Staff, and Garrison Officers.—Agreed to. ' the parties, that the territory .in question belonged not engaged to bear the whole, or a great part of communicate our conditions to the only authority The sum of 60,0001. for Supernumerary Officers. to us ; can they now, then, pretend to interineddle 'that expe• ce ? competent to grant them. .—Agreed to. i with it, under any pretence, 'or in any shape ? No. The motion having been put, and no answer having Mr. STENIEN observed, that the President had. The sum of 106,0001. for the Expences of Officers ! —Secondly, as to the Indians ; I ask Great Britain, if it has ever been heard of that Indians are consider. been returned to the last toestion, intimated no wish to ask any powers from Congress; in Public Departments in Great Britain.—Agreed to. i - Mr. WHITIIIII3A D observed, that as no answer and if he recollected rightly, there was no sine qua ' The sum of 70,0001. for defraying the Fees for ed as independent nations? We know that France, was 'given, an impression would go forth that this non as to cession and territory . Land Forces.—Agreed to. • when in possession of Canada, never treated them as such ; and certain it is Great Britain never treated country was to bear the expence which he had Mr. PONSONBY assured the Hon. Gentleman, • The sum of 218,0001. for the Half-pay of Reduced mentioned, that there was such a condition. Officers of the Land Forces. . j them as such. Lastly, as to the two nations : I , . coniess myself utterly astonished that the British Mr. BATH uRsT hoped that no such impression Mr.. BARING said, there was a stipulation as to General .GASCOIGNE said, that by an order of Commissioners should propose a measure to our's, w h o ose rr wou ld be produced from Ministers de- the territory inhabited by the Indians, which amount- the Treasury, the Paymaster was empowered to take a dining to answer ail questions th ey might deem ed to no less than one-third of the American ter- Poundage of 6m1.1n the pound out orhampay of office " . which, if it was accepted, it would be morally im. e , possible to observe, for the inevitable encroachment imp:oiler. ritory. This was a condition which the Americans This he considered extremely hard, and worthy of i of civilized people on savage nations, and the retreat ' Mr. ItAR iNG slid, that the impression that all the would never ag-e to, and which, if granted, would the consideration of the House. He wished to know of the latter , can no more he prevented than cause treops . n 'oe mainteitied under the Convention were. be injurious to ourselves. As to the power of the what became of this poundage; it certainty did not . • and effect can be separated ; and moreover,• such a an he employed in Belgium, was, he believed, error Ameriean President, he certainly could make n o cos- go to Chelsea, and Ministers ought to state in what stipulation would only be the cause of another war woes, since the tro.spe empleved in Genoa, in the lion of lend without the authority of the States as manner it was appropriated. There was another . in less then five years. It is ) therefore, inadmitsi loeials Isles, were inclutled in the number. It was, i represented in Congress; and in what he had no w matter that deserved attention—the distinction be ble on everygroun d . •he cencolved, a etiniige assuirmelioim that the House `done, he had merely conformed to the usual practice tweet% the - English and Irish half-pay. He saw no I „ . • As to a revision of the, eastern boundary line; wes to vote tar lare sum proposed o ithout anv infor- of his Government. _ reason for this differeece, and considered that it ought no one has ever objected to running lines for the pur. motion to what vtiriovso it was to be app!ted, a bile we.! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob. to he dose away. ' pose of settling disputed boundaries. Should we 'we, Y. :n a state of el ofnund peace with rfsprct to the • served, that the Gentlemen on the other side had tem! PA LM ERSTON said, that the poundage on lose Moore Island by as certaining the truth, w:. will 'P owers of Europ4 . Ever' if such was the old Par-, been arguing on a wrong assumption ; the negoci- the half-pay was not voted, and did not in fact exist. ask Mr. Jefferson to explain why it was not obtain- Ihnientory method of proceeding, he conceked'it to ations with America were net broken otf. ' It was merely nominal, and consequently could not ed definiively by the ratification of Mr. King's Cone be very iti , le,-ent. On the subject of Ath'rica he Mr. ROBINSON stated, that the American Com- I be appropriated by any persons under the Govern vention ? However, this is , not a sine qua 'son, and said, that though be was aware of the tialicacy toi,:siotters had received instructions from their Go.. ment. With res p ect to the distinction between the which it we- pr per to observe in aski.sg ro m lid 3d conditions, the es. cerement, to treat on the Ist a 1 balf.pay of the two countries, his Majesty's Ministers consequently might be disposed of if nothing else prevented. Bons in that llonse, and though the neeocia t ions latter of which related to a revision of the boundar y ' had not been inattentive to the subject; and measures , 4 Lastly--They do not pretend to interfere with to fish Lastly were yet ; .ending, yet he could net but remark ou the line. Such an instruction im p lied a power in them ! would probably be adopted to assimilate the half- ! oar right on the Newfoundland banks. hut extraordinary miosienagetsient of his Majesty's Mi- to make a treaty. [Mr. Potisonhy—Yes, but not.to I pay of Ireland to that of England. This sum was " t h ey re f use to yield the privilege to cure our fish on isisters [Bear, hear!], the extraordinary Prete 'slaw. conclude one.] Certainly not to conclude one, but then a g reed to. , 1 their own shores without an equ i va l ent. This i s which had been set up on our part, arid which must to go through all preliminary steps. the Sums o f 7,0001. for defraying military al. : • Also, . precisely the distinction formerly taken in this paper. have originated in some person Witte ienorant of the Mr. PONSONBY.—Perhaps the instructions to lowances to reduced officers; amid 427,0001. for the ; The first, we maintained was our strict right, an d state of public : feeling, in America. and e hich had pro. the Crenmissinners were merely not to treat on the in and out pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham 1 only would so clearly so, that we not duced the effect,—when a great pid of the best and cession of territory. Hospitals. Agreed to. der u it, but we also said we were quite certain Great most independent inhabitants of Amelica hail differed Mr. ROSE, referring to a book in his hand, which The sum of 30,0001. for p ensions to officers of the .. D . . rm would never ask it 9f us. Our letters of from their Government as to the ground of the war • we understood him to say, was a copy of the Ameri- land and marine forces, yesterday, speaking conjecturally, informed us she with us,—•of joining all hearts and hands r,ainst can Constitution, said, that power was given to the On the sum of 100,0001. being proposed to .be had ami d we o the de mand insufferable. us in every part of that country. The preten - President of makin g treaties without any reserve. granted for volunteer corps in Great Britain and ' pronouncedlt now appears she does not, amid she only expects lions set up by the Minister had been so extraordi. Mr. BARING answered, that the Constitution Ireland. an equivalent for the use of her shores e to which we Mr. WHITBREAD could not understand on : nary, and the prima facie evidence of mismanage. was framed with extreme caution, and the Congress , have no right, and which is so far from being essential what ground the volunteers were to he kept on foot. went such, that a motion ought to he made without reserved to itself all power which was not expressly ;to our full enjOyment of the fishery, that in point of Was there any expectation of invasion ? Was there i further information, since it was evidently impossi- given.fast, as I since ascertained, our fi s hermen did not ble to attain a peace without, while these pretensions Mr. ROSE replied, that the Constitution would any ; fear of internal commotion ? England was per- . avail themselveg. of the privilege when they had it were persisted in. It had been said, that it was at. scareely reserve powers contradictory to those which acc ording to the of a fectly quiet, and statement. gratuitously. r. Right lion. Gent. (Mr. Peele), there were no appre- • extraordinary proceeding that the American Exec - it granted. - " But the,article respecting "the Lales is surely ticellOol(1 hate laid before Congress the Paper , relativ The resolution wee then agreed to. hensions of disturbance in 'relate.). not to be admitted.. No : not as it stands. But ob. to the Nitgociatites, while that Negotiation was The next restitution was for 3,522,000 1 . for the Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, that no satisfactory serve 9 i t is not proposed to us as what mast indis. . •• pending. • But if in our own cast', in a Negotiation s ervice of the troops at h ome and abroad.—Agreed reason could be given for maintaining this s p ecies of nensably be granted ; if it were, I should, say the force either in England or Ireland. On the con- . carried on on the other side of the Atlantic, a de- to. Lakes or no peace; that is, an equal particiimation of maw: was set op of a pioce of tho county of Corn- The third resolution was for 10,9001. for recruit.in tie to the üblic since ever trary, it was an l i y . _P 1 fro m the Lakes. It is merely a proposal, an extraordinary Nail, it weeld be impossible that his Majesty would ins five troops of dragoons and 13 companies of i pers h on in a cave ry corps claimed an exemption . and inadmissible proposal, I admif ; but if the article the horse-tax and a l so from serving its the militia . slot lay the informatimi of such a demand before ford, iii Great Britain, for the service of the East,can be so modified as to be made perfectly recipro- Ile could not consent to vote for this sum. Pe; ':-or-ent. to Ohio the pretensioes or expectations futile Coinpany.cal, each to do or abstain from doing what the other House It was thee moved, that a sum not exceeding Lord PA LM ERSTON did not ask the to „, ol' the ciseelv. Our Ministers at Gheist made it a noes or abetpins from doing, Ido not know hut it ledge itself for the continuance of. the Volunteers ; contlit:on of peace that America should make con- 245,0001• be granted to his Majesty for defraying the P . be might be well enough. Otherwise , however, it Must but till it could be ascertained what force it would cession' on evi ry parr of her frontO. , s. lie did not charges of the disembodied militia. be resisted at every hazard." necessary for the county to keep up, .there coald intend to woke any motion, nor even to ask for any Me. WHITBREAD, after declaring, his convic- be no objection to maintain the cavalry cerps e parti. infermation, b ut he thought it of importance that it Lion that the continuance of any of the Militia em. 1 cularly in Ireland, since this measure rendered it un bodied, under the present circumstaeces, was di. ; sieJultt. he made kn::wti whether the p re t ens imis set up 'et cur I:at t were retsisted in. 'This eas a ques- rectly con tra ry to law, ex p ressed a 'wish that the i necessary to retails a large portion of the militia em • 1:0 , 1 ~.!tich a ore an intimate connection wit h the Noble Lord would state something more precise , b odied. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER statal , c, or troops it would be I sere ne. I soul to main- upon this subject. Air explanation was certainly des - ta;;., f or if :re pecsisted, it would be necessary to cessary to satisfy the mind of the country, an pr ... . agreed, that there was no necessity for maintaining ; this species of force, and, on his suggestion, the send out a f orce ver y ear ly in the year. If, after the cially to allay the complaints of those among the _ . Noble : Motton was withdrawn. • Clelstrnas ilolides F, no information was given oil the .Militia who were still embodied. Did the No , Loud think it probable that the whole of the militia ' • The sums of 150,0001. for the expences of Local Stl).l.'-t be ',llotilt: deem it necessary to bring furoard237 ,oool . for the services ' 'Great ft * • • Militia in wain , would be disembodied by Christmas, or at what some motion.of Foreign Corps in' Great Britain and Ireland ; ; ? Sonsethin in the way of explanation was Mr. STITHEN, i n a ll u si o n t o what had f a llen time g 14 1 .for the Reiyal Militery College ;• 15,0001. from a Right H onoura ble Geetletnan (Mr. Poisson- obviously due to those regiments, the o ffi cers and e 7 __.. D or the Military Asylum at Chelsea; 12,0001. fin. bv . ), said, th a t by the Americans Constitution the; men belonging to which must, feel themselves dim - 1 •the Ch 1 • . ap tuns of the Arm y ; 60,0001. for Medicines pointed, amid especially those who, even upon the President was not hound to lay pliers respectin g a 1 i in the prospect of and Hospital Contingencies -,_ 25,0001. for allowances Pending negociation before Congress, and therefore verge of their own counties , to the. Children of deceised Officers; 100,0001. for the stricture o f the Chancellor of the Exchequer wa s bein g immediately disbanded, were ordered .to eon- the Commissariat in Ireland ; 200,00 01 . for the while they saw that not only other well founded . 'Du, papers respecting the reetitutiou tinue embodi ed , disbanded, Barrack Department in Ireland were then voted. regiments of militia were but that several of American property in France and the Orders inThe sum of 7,5001. proposed for allowances to of. the second battalions belonging to the r egular _ Council were produced in consegevisee of a motion. Superannuated Officers iu Public Acfices was with led also. and the vote of a mejority in Congress, on the army were disban ded . drawn • ground of undue partiality shown to the Frenc h Go. Mr. B. BATHURST observed, that the whole of - The . whole of the Sums were ftir fialf,a/ear, from the militia would be disembodied, as soon as the veroment. the 25th Dec. 1814, to 24th tune,' 1815. , Mr. PONSONBY asserted that it was a principle safely of the' Coon try would allow. If the service • The Resolutions 'AA - then agreed to.—RepOrt on it must ne in the A m e r i c an Constitution that no Treaty could required a portions to be kep t , foot , uponordered for t Ad' ed • o-morrovr.— yourn . . be concluded by th e President without the concur- turally fall harder upon some that; it d id . but it was a hardship that could not at present ) -t ... - . rents of the Semite, and that without the consent of others . . It Is said that. Government is in treaty witk the avoided the Congress no territory could lie ceded, nh or any -e • Mr WnITBREAD repeated Th Ms opinion upon e Company of Goldsmiths fur ;# ~ space. of g r ound be. + measures affecting the rights of American citizens • that that opinion was sanctioned by tween Fleet-stceet and Ilolborn , for a New Post taken. During the course of the negotiations , the law, observ ing, .. untry— Office; and it must be altowed that o mole c‘liotl 111 i 1 i b l i c omm i ss i oner s if the papers published in some of the highest law authorities in t h e Co - •: • $ la wyera indeed who were actually. ton- venient spot for At iiutpose tailiiiit 'W found etithin America were had taken for granted that a by some 9 i correct, din framing the militia law. Accordiog to the the City of Loudon. coraitry supposed by the Americans to be American cerne Accounts from Charleston, South Carolina, state, that an United States gun-boat" and nine coasters, which she was convoying, were captured on the fills alt. between Savannah and Amelia Island, by ten barges, manned by 216 picked seamen from the Bri tish frigate the Lacedemonian. A Brussels article mentions the destruction of the Theatre of Breda, by fire, on the Bth. Advices have reached town from Valparaiso, to the 25th of May last. At that period great doubts were. entertained whether the Viceroy of Lima would ratify the Treaty of Peace weed to between •the Lima General and the people of Chili, in ♦irtue of which the latter were to be allowed to exercise a free trade with Great Britain Ind all, other Allies of Spain, on condition of aekeowledeing FERDINAND VII. It was understood that the Viceroy was not aethorisedro accede to such terms. It had beerl agreed, however, that, two Deputies from Chill should be dispatched to the Cortes. It is a fact not generally known, that the sheet which received the head of Charles I. after his de-. (capitation r at Guildhall, is carefully preserved along !with the eatitinanion plate in•the church of Ashburn ' ham, in Sussex, the blood with which it has been almost entirely catered, now appears nearly black. !The watch of the unfortunate Monarch is also de. !posited with the linen, the movements of which are 'still perfect. These relics came into, the possession of an ancestor of the present Lord Ashb- - - mediately after the death of the King. ~.: i . Y baruhaio l iru. .44111