The Statesman. — London, England, 1820-06-28 00:00:00

Si ATES LUPERIia P.4RLI.4.IIENT. nousE OF LORDS, TVIISPAV. J NE 47. Returns reverting the Trade to India we--e pre sented by Mr. Iry which were ordered to be referred to the Committee on Trade ; also a Return, by Alrj Fin! lyson, of Ships the Line, &c. in Commission.—; 4A - tiered to lie Noon the table. Lome Local and private Bills were bronght up from the House of Commons by Mr. Stuart Wortley, Sir N. Colthtirst, Mr. Wo lehouse, and other Members. .and read a first time. The Loan (1 . 2,0(t0,0P0/.) Bill and the Funded Debt, Charge Bill %%ere read second time, and committed tut to-morrow. The Court of Exchequer Bill passed through a Com mittee. and wis reported without amendment. The Earl of DoNoruoNtolte gave notice of his in t •ntion to move the •eemid reading of the Landlords and lenants' (Ireland) Bill to-morrow. THE QUEEN. The Earl Ciaay.—lly Lords, before euttring upon the discussion of tile very painful subject now before the House, I wish to ask the Noble Earl opposite, what are the intentions of his Majesty's Ministers with re gard to the course of proceeding intended to be adopt ed in the fervent hope that I may receive such an an , wer as to render it necessary for rue to proceed with the discussion. Th.,- Earl of LIVERPOOL.---4 have no hesitation, my Lords, in giving the Noble Earl the information which he desires. It has been the determination of hi s Ma. jesty's Ministers, after hearing what was stated at your Lordships' Bar by her Majesty's Counsel, and after riving to the subject the fullest and most mature consideration, that the only course they otight to adopt and persevere in is that which they originally pro pov..l, timely, the inc eitigation of the parr-, relative t: .induct of the Queen, by a Secret Committee., as they originally prup.e.4l. therefore, is their determination, and if ttp.m that depends the bringing forward the motion of the Noble Earl, we roust then submit to all the incomeniences under present circutta %traces (the extreme heat of the weather) of a debate. Earl Us Ey.—lu con.eiittenee of what has been now esated by the Noble Earl, I ani under the painful ne cessity. toy Lords, of bringing before your Lordships the considerations which I deem it essential to press uoon your attention with ri•gard to this unhappy pars tian. I at,. the more convinced that I ought to do thi4, berms,* circumstances have arisen which place the question in a point of view different from that un der the impression of whirls this House first agreed to refer the papers communicated from the Crown. with rslord to the conduct of the Queen. to the investiga t'un of a Secret Committee. Ido not therefore, call upon the House with a mere renewal of the arguments w!.ich were urged by Noble Friends. as well as mysc'l. on a Pirtier evening, and which at that time failed is; tonvinci;:g the House of the impropriety aad inexpe diency of resorting to such a mole of procedure, but with arguments drawn from the rerent cireionstances which have attended this unfortunate ease, and which, it my opinion, very considerably vary its hearings and relations. My original objection. indeed, to the ap pointtnett of a Secret Corumittee • till remains ; awl in stead of diminishing, has, I think, increased in force. ramp's-, that the appointment of rotrh a Committee tends - directly to interfere with what ought to Ire held sacredly free (rim all interference- = thus judicial lune ti !is which so peculiarly appertain to this House, and whi•:b are so important to the 'ornerier of the Consti tution. It is utterly imposNible that such an investi gation can be entered into before a Secret Committee,' I. Nowt, in some degree, prejudging a rase that salty cur before us for adjudication ; fur can it be believed t' at the Report which would emanate fr such a Com. ;flitter must not necessarily cause a hiss upon your Lordships' minds, or at least excite a sitspieion of bias, w' •i•:14 would hr equ ills- unfavourable to any impression of impartial justice ? Ily object is, that justice should L••• equally administered, and in that view I object to VA< investigation before a Secret Committee, because, it my opinion, it tends to obstrnet the course of that equal jus ice. It is necessary to rural your Lordships' reeolluction,in some degree, to what passed on a former evening, when it was stated by a high authority is this House, that it was impossible the' CUMPIOIIII impeach, because upon the hypothetical case pct of the Queen committing adultery abroad with foreigner, she could not, according to the con- 1 stru.ition put upon the Statute of Edward the Third, I'll artkre, by the Votes Of the flow of Consumes, that that House base come to the determination of postponing the appointment of a Secret Committee for a considerable period, with I view apparently to sonic judicial proceeding, but when (supposing that to be the case), I observe a I; inister of the Crown sta ting, that it was with a view to some judicial proceed ing originating in this House, I should wish the very eminent statesman who uttered this, and who is remark able fur the clearness of hi► views, and the perspicuity of his language, would come here and inform us in what way and judicial proceeding can originate here. The consideration, however, that with regard to this unhappy case, we may yet be called upon by that House to exercise our judical (inactions, ought undoubt edly to prevent us from rendering our proceedings liable !., the suspicion of a previous bias against the accused. And I cannot but seriously urge your Lord ships to look at the state of public opinion with regard to our proceedings in this unfortunate case. lem the last man that Ismaili basely counsel your Lordships to give up to public clamour what you fairly considered to be a just and rig-lit course of proceeding. But it cans . not be concealed that in thi,. cave public opinion is do. cidedly against yoitr Lordships' course of proceeding. Secret Committees, from the uses to which they have ;teen nut, le.ive become decidedly whoa : and what is there in the constitntion of the Secret Committee to which these papers ;:re rerei red, t!.:it can tend to relieve it from any part of the odium to it Nieli it is ne cessarilysnhjected ? me Wile Friend said last night, four of the Members Of this Con 111 l isle. are Cabinet Ministers, who mus: of course he acquainted with the whole contents of tlie.e papers. and t have already made up their minds upon the subject, whilst of se veral of the other Members of the Committee I may say, without meaning Li be uncivil, that they are is the constant habit of giving their support to those principles upon which the Ministers of the Crows found the measures which they bring forward in Pais be guilty of high treason. Notwithstanding the re- upwards of twelve months have now elapsed since a spect I bear that high authority, I way be permitted to Commission was sent abroad, I know not by what doubt this construction of the law, backed as I am in authority issued, or by whom employed, for the my view of it by the opinion of an authority which I purpose of examining witnesses; and also that up respect only less than that of the Noble and Learwed wards of twelve ytontbs have even now elapsed Lord to whom I first alluded. But, my Lords, how- since the Report of that Commission was made.— rver this part of the case may stand, there can be no ills Majesty's Miuisters, therefore, have beets all that datibt that such conduct as that which ha, been ins- time in possession of the whole of the evidence, which puted to the Queen, would be a very high offence only now they have expressed a desire to refer to a against the country and the Throne ; that it could nut Secret Committee. How happens it that they did not be considered as an ordinary case between party and commencethisiovestigatiots lung Imirkeppeets party ; and more especially that in such a case recri- it that, after the atiair was susceptible of negociatiun, as mination (an almond idea of which has got abroad) f it has since appeared, the negotiation was nut long uuld not for a moment be allowed, as nothing that she silltt commenced, when it might hare been carried on could allege against that Illustrious Individual sitting I under much more favourable auspices, a u:l w hen th e upon the Throne, could be allowed for a moment (un- whole affair might have been before this brought to a I <a you were prepared to say that that individual was termination, without any of that agitation which now I:;sworthy to sit upon the • lirone), to abate in the least unhappily pervades the public mind? All this has from the character of her offence committed against arisen, as I before observed, from the timidity, the the honour of the Throne, and the interests of the 4 irresolution, and the indecision of his Majesty's Mi. (pantry. It is by no means impossible, therefore,that !sisters, who, instead of acting upon their responsibi ow 'night be called upon in our judicial capacity, to l lily, in bringing forward whatever measure the cir adjudicate awe of this nature included in a charge cunustances of the case required, threw down a bag of of high crimes and misdemeanours, and then in what papers upon the table of this House, and endeavoured a situation will this House be placed if it has previously to shelter themselves under the nwounnendation of a decided as it were upon that very case which it is call- Committee of this Boone as to the measure to be pro ed upon to try. But independent of this consideration, I posed. The consequence of this has been, that we are moat important as it is, I cannot bring myself to believe placed in a situation in which we are subjected to that a Secret Committee is the place where charges of odium and disgrace, and all through that species of the nature alleged ought to be investigated ; a Secret I conduct on the pail of his Majesty's Ministers to which Committee deciding upon ex-party evidence, and where I have already adverted, and which proves them to be the accused would have no opportunity of defence, or I utterly incapable of giving proper or just advice to the oleross-exachinielg witnesses. This would not, I con- I Crown. In what way the Ministers ache Crown have tend, be equal justice. I•know nothing, thank God, agreed amongst themselves with regard to these pro . f 'the case of either the accused or the accuser ; c e eding s i t is difficult to conjecture, especially when tun' only anx:oos that equal justice should he we find one of their body in another place, declaring one, and that we should not be d calle ..._ upon to to hod, in the moat solemn manner, that he w ou ld re edge a ease upon which we may afterwards not become the instrument of bringing charges against e c a ll e d upon t o a dj u dicate. your Lordships are the Queen, whom he described as being the grace and 'ornament of society. Sorb was the declaration •f one of the Ministers, of one whipaitoke from his ow* knowledge, anal on that knowledge described her u listed to be the grace and ornament I , f every society, and why not the grace and ornament of the 'throne of! England? He who knew the contents of that hag has thus spoken ; and I will ask, what can justify him, hold ing the opinion that he dots of the Illustrious Individual up to this moment, in advising that those papers should be laid before the Houser Is it to be wondered at, that a charge so described shook' have produced such an effect on the feelings of the country at large? But this is nut all. The same Ministers who recommend an accusation agoinst her Majesty—who say that they possess information which entitles them to arraign her, with a view to deposing her from the high and pre eminent station which she occupies—who approached her, in the first instance, with a threat—who told her that, the moment she set her foot on English ground, proceedings should be instituted against her ; those Ministers turn round and address her with all possible humiliation. hoping that she would be so good us nut to ask for any further runcession. Nay, allowing it to be a merit in her Majesty have come to this country, and promising, at the stone time, that if she would only eondeseend to ask no more, she should be acknowledged as Queen, recommended to the alien tiuu of Foreign Ministers, and satisfied upon every point but the insertion of her name in the Liturgy. Was ever a greater absurdity manifested in the conduct of public men since the world had the misfortune to witness their ineonsistencies ? his I state on the authority of the Resolution presented to the Wen: — a Resolution on which I stand as on a rui I am told, that one of the Ministers, speaking in another place, stated his apprehension, in language somewhat strange, that ;f any oth , r course had been resorted to I than that which was adopted, the Miniaters might run! the hazard of appearing " in contrast u ith them-; know pot what results the . , . liament. It is not. therefore, too notch to say that the 1 Ministers may hate apprehended from a calamity of Report of the Committee will lie, in fact, the fleport !that kind, but I ant sure it would be attended with of those Members of it who ate Ministers of the 1 1 great advantage to the country, if Ministers could be Crown, and who, without the intersection of a Secret , prevailed upon to exhibit in contrast with themselves. Committee, could have brought forward, upon their --(Hear, heat !)--Itut, perhaps, on a closer inspee; own responsibility. tie measure which they rrc 11111 l nem! Coon, it may appear that they have thine so in this very through the agency of the Secret Committee. Where, case; for if to bring an accusation themselves, and then, is the necessity for a Secret Committee, when afterwards agree to an Address. describing the con all the objects of it ran be attained without the agency tiottance of that accusation, as " disappointing to the' of a measure which only tends to curer this Louse • hopes of Parliament, derogatory from the dignity of with twl;utu and disgrace: Let us relieve curselves the Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the from the disgrace of this measure, and thus set our• empire, - —if this be ill 11 11 romiitfri ti • t • o f the must I selves right in public opinion. It may he said of the glaring nature, then. I say, his litiesiy's Ministers House of Commons, that there the liepresentatives of have not escaped the charge from which o n e of their the people have shown a sytiyathy with public upi- uw.t 3lembers has exp.ressed so not.-11 anxiety to re-1 ni.m, liy r.,:sing an tippet:lion to the proposed use:mare lea-e them. But here is another kstance of contrast' of a Secret Conimitose (whielo is not yet anointed in a ith themselves: they describe the result in the lan that 110n. , e), which the Ministers were afraid to en. guaee I have just iitn•ted, and )et they insist that it counter, and which has led to the recent postponement is toecessary to proceed to that result. Why is it ne of the measure to a still longer period. Let out your c:•ssary to proceed: I ask, what necessitv can there Lordships he behind-hand with the House of l'ont- be, fraught with still greater evils to the country ; or 1110!IN: you have all the advantages of ancient descent, what result can be more unhappy than on:• derogatory of wealth, and talents, and, I gope, of independence; to the interests of the Crown and the I ouutry : This with all these advantages, let it not be said, as I fear they have stated distinctly as the saavoidaltle cliarac it has been said• with too much truth, that your Lord- ter of the result, whatever that result mer be. I defy shpt are too much given to support the measures ; them to get out of this admis ' , if there be any brott.2ht forwarl by the Nlinisters of the Crown ; let areatting in language; and I UM the more fortified in ttle 1.111(1 . 1t you, in the prese n t instance,.to negative py position when I reflect, that the individual who from eharge, by relieritor ) oursolves fro that stigma framed the Address is one of the last men from 1 which must unavoidably attach to the perseverance is whom I could expect the introduction of words this measure of the Secret Co •ttee. All Ott,• evil! without meaning. In this inference of the Ministers, has arisen from the conduct of his Majesty's Minis- 1 I cannot concur. If her Majesty's conduct has been tens, who, with that timidity, irremlution, and iota,- I improper and licencious, the only course consistent cisiton which lime invariably marked their proceed- with the honour of the Crown is to separate her lags, have abdicated their responsibility in order to front Ilion ; if innocent, the only course is to prove shift it upon Con 111 l ittees of Parliament, and who, that innocence. But when yen are told that in in this instance, hale brou, 4 llt . our Lordships into either case the result most derogate front the dig a situation in which you can neither proceed with oil- of the Croe..n and the interests of the country, safety Ivor retract with honour. I have already pro- I ask, can you pursue the inquiry ? When the Ml tested a ..:ainst that secret ex- .ante examination of do-I sisters of the Crown propose a measure fraught with eurehents, which sits 031 y tern( to prejudice the case if such consequences, by their own admission, 1 must, as the Queen; but after what has tak.ot place, it is owl a Member of this House, anxious for its dignity and happily itopossilile to avoid an insestigati ;it is; the honour of the Crown, say to them—Take back therefore my opin:on, that the investigation ought to, your accusation, consider ft again, and if you are then be as palate as possible, with every facility to the ac. of opinion that the public interest requires yon to pro cased to bring forward evidence to rebut the charges teed, tome forward with your charges in another shape, against her. That this requires time must undoubt- and present them to the House on your own responsi edly he admitted, and it is no small evil attendant upon bility.—(Hear, hear!)--These are the groundson which this investigation, that in the mean tins the public mind I solicit you to rescind the proceeding •• a proceeding is kept in a state of feverish agitation. I Jo not wish in which you hive already encountered so many diffi to fatigue your Lordships by going over the history collies, and in which the further you advance the of the unfortunate transactions to which this imesti- ' more you will be involved in obstacles and perplexities. gation applies; but I cannot avoid remarking, that I have no earthly interest or object in the course I am . _ . . . the ' pursuing, but . desire that justice should be done. I know nothing of the accusation ; I stand here, hop ing, from my attachment to the Crown, that the result will not be such as is described in the terms of the itesolution. I stand before you perfectly impartial, knowing nothing of the accusation, nothing of the de- Ihre. Hut as the accusation has been made, there is 1po • way of getting off but by an impartial adjudication niail decision. That the decision may be impartial, Aid not only impartial, but above saspiciiin, I entreat /sit tenviships to abandon a etrenve inconsistent with Use best principles of the law, and calculated to revolt the mind of the country in a case in which its feelings are so deeply interested. As a necessary step towards the accomplishment of an object so de-irable, I shall conclude by moving your Lordships that the Order of the Day be discharged. The Earl of Livaarook.—lly Lords, I certainly heated, as no doubt you all heard, the speech of the Noble Lord with considerable surprise. He began with a legal and constitutional argument against the mode of proceeding which you have hitherto thought Bt to adopt; he told you that the present was no party question, and that be wished to meet it on great and solemn principles of justice alone. How must I have been surprised thee, how must your Lordships have been surprised, to hear the Noble Lord conclude his speech with one of the most Violent, personal, and inflammatory attacks that ever has been delivered in either House of Parliansent.—(Hear, hear! from the Ministerial Benches.)—'l hat attack lam prepared to repel as the Noble Loed has made it—by reference to the comparative claims of both parties, as Siedacible from the principles that have governed the political conduct of each. The Noble Lord has charged us with incapacity, and argeztl all along upon this mea sure as part of that system of vacillation he has been pleased to impute to us, and a fresh instance of our incompetency to steer the vessel of the State. 7 his is not the occasion for entering upon the subje ct; % believer the occasion comes, I shall be preps. to meet it, willing and anxi ou s t o b e tried 1;': House, the country, and posterity, i n t h e i which the Noble Lord Las p ro p ose d ; ;‘ ,1 4 tried on a review of the last ei:zlit rears f; our opinion% arts, and treasures in t e course of th it period, as contrasted with the counsels of the N 01,6 Lord opposite, whose counsels would have led t a i ruin of the country, to the prostration of her struck and dignity, and independence, and to the _hut* * , tion of evils from which there could be uo hope o (4 . lirerauce. Upon this ground I say again, that f as 4 willing to be tried by Parliament, ate comitry, • posterity.—(Hear ! from the 31inisterial Rem he s 4„, before I go into the subject of this night's deh a kr have no difficulty in stating the whole of my en *, as connected with these proceedings. I have as culty in saying, that without reference to paniesi i , swede alluded to by the Noble Lord in contra:heti % to the rule of Parliament, I always did f 1.1 that aps s ; cerdiug against her Majesty the Queen must he a t m" public evil. I always thought, that rhatever Wive duct might have been, it Mutt neceisarilv be atom with great public inconvenience. To avoid en.t iss; venienve, if possible, without incurring a I:reatet was therefore an object which appeared to me stall tim desirable, and the cowl urt adopted with that riew is call as I nut only avow without hesitation, hut defend pith confidence. With respect to the theasurel take, tope,. vent the return of the Queen, I believe they are ap. proved by nine-tenths of the people; but from then * . talent that her Majesty's resolution was taken to mum, ask, was there any alternative between receiring h with all the homage of a Queen, and adopting the course we did, which was to state, that we had refined her that homage because we had accusations to b r i ng against her? But the Noble Lord has said that his Majesty's Ministers mord, with all the rapidity ichith the forms of the House would admit, the refi ern the subject to a Secret Committee. It is true 'an t such a 'notion was made, hat it is also true that ire were perfectly really to attempt any course short of retracting the charges by which the inquiry could be prevented. There was nothing inconsistent in all this. As to the irregular allusion made by the Noide Lord to expres • s said to have been used in another place, he took them probably from arc .ants • they were misrepresented, and your Lordshi observe, among the consequences of this " from order, that it has led to remarks ressions, the reputed author of which present to correct. But the Noble Lord treated the Resolution all along as if Resolution of his Majesty's 31inisters. If' it received the support of Ministers, his perfectly true ; but if he means that they thing of it, even a moment before it was pro impression was perfectly untrue. Without any importance to particular nerds, I deny pie of the Noble Lord upon this part of tile and rontend, that, even if the Queen is guilty, *notion may be fairly lamented, as dercie• dignity of the Crown, and injurious to the of the country. But it does nut follow that there may not be another course more , to that dignity, and more injurious to those The withdrawing of the charge would be ' but this does not prove the that position There is no view of this question which does considerable difficulties, bia I trust the 1 " Ministers the justice to believe that they ivuid the prosecution, if possible, though miasent to retract the charges. The Noble add, that the House ought to be on its guard Its character as a great judicial holly. I hope so; I doubt not but it will do so, for it must ter of satisfaction to us all twreflect, that if d the whole world a tribunal unsullied by a slash of misconduct, it is that of the English lMsmt I maintain that the circumstances which 13-' so far from constituting an objection to course, have taken away . the only objection be supposed to exist against it. The Noble said, that the other House of Parliament may impeachment, and has questioned the inu given by my Noble and Learned Friend Of sack, to the statute of Edward the Third. terpretation ortbat statute does not depend, nion of my Noble and Learned Friend alone, ported by every considerable legal authority been consulted, and the Act has been referred f the first authorities in the kingilotn. The Act p it high treason in a subject to commit adnitery Queen Consort or her eldest daughter ; bat it mention one word about the woman, though suppos 4 to contemplate her consent. I thir be a strong interpretation of the Act, if it one, to say, that as it was high treason in it must be by implication in the woman consents** there can be no accessories in treason ; but hal" practice of centuries to direct us, we have a some that the interpretation of the Art is public awl to the illustrious persons, la the 'signer, however, who owes no all li no crime, so that the construction offence becomes cognisable under the tis l ease ; for how can it be said that she is treason, wheu lie is not? But the Noble, that though it may not be high treason, great offence amounting to a high crime meatioer. There again I am at issue with Lord. Before it can be 'hewn to be high misdemeanor, it must be shewn to be a minution law of the country. Bin I vas mime at common law, it is merely a civil , soeb is liable to compensation in damages. that a public olheer, guilty of a breech of da,, execution of his Aire, is punishable by Pail: M r misdemeanor, but then his °Sere, is a Rai common law also, and nothing shall ever in create a crime for the occasion, which is not by the laws of the country. We now come A wliat is the only course of proceeding possib! . adopt. The only one we can resort to is one ; it may he for a divorce, it may be for and penalties, but whatever it is, It must $ legislative proceeding. I dad by referees Journals, that it is competent to either Hesse f nate the measure. Then minis the question House ought to eonsioeiwie in the present et if the proceeding is to be of a jndidal nature, , RP" it should originate here than in the Houma( C ush and for this plain reason, that you are in tbll howl examining witnesses apes oath. The adjw raad the other House last night was expressly tr and what my Noble Priced stated on that thiso if 17 4 liegwirouislatiirprereseuseasareemenallise•ithe eesrntse How , - moos. We weir tome to this kgishelve measore. previous inquiry is necessary before we ran ammo' what it should be, or whether it shoidd take paten and I maintain, that an inqairy br a = is less caltulated to prejudice the ~. JO V a. ice .unu in whid of sr Lordships id Ili of this departs. in -marks upon ea fa which tan's' h or Lord (Grey) le Ls if it was de rya Di If he assanstbil his i A at the7krito " was ns iithout a th I deny the w t of tios qui', lo is guilty, the pe th derogato= D the best H How fres theei; m lief• Pr re te d t= NI ites I be far lowl.llol V ion to be abed a li does not mule the House will o ill hey are willing/it it ough they tank at I Noble Cord MI w is guard to qini if I hope it Mlle si it oust be as* st that if there MB y a singlriadou at di [louse of la* hr ich have oct. 1111 11 to the origiad to jection that essii ill Noble girl has of nt may pnwesd by Q he i a terp retails H riend on the o* bird. But die is ti lepead so the eri• le I alone, it is op X inthority that k• a referred to wed s i be Act preassign at adnitery with Ws ti !r ; bat it choose thuegh it west bi si I think it wadi ii if it was a mewl it ion in the oils • si se consendsi, U tl i ; bat basis( it et have a right V* tx di et y ile'leta w sit h t.sb ri bessieeleell' a qwel dWilirt : Il 'et is leak salh a r 1 is guilty of ill able Lori has w nen, it may be a el crime asi se with the t: se high crime sW L Se a cruse by du ct siis adultery le PI - h irii ivjers:asi • i mages. It kWe -la cl ti, of -w I Pec rayzes h of is6wowriledia d ietnim ety ot ie hr it il: is ..Able fer SW .4 " r r ie r come lbelt eat tegader t• olmoddl i , " aii.dr. — 0 to is a atter : * est of bt se r referrers lei PI her House Salt as nestles whisk si seat nee ? 11M• - II nature, it is OW sense of (.',MUM" ... . 16/ 1 re in the 1110• 0 5 r .• adjouriroll 0 oak to wait ism ll ' stmt that Geniis* VW 4,11 ot eassameand is the Hoerr if 011 " 1: we asessare. SOO in eass awl & take plO leSwat difilis , a 3 lid um Pi of th vi: . la o 4 limi . ni th as UI 111 ci. cI to do t' la _ al SI bi of tr . 01 • ' II IF r 1 I ' A i t . • 1