The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-03-14 00:00:00

14 1 0614 THE STATESMAN. ls. or thereabouts ; and he was rather inclined to agree with him; yet when the quarter was at 60s. in the London market, the price of the quartern loaf was Is. ; so that if the price of the quarter was raised to 80s, the price of the quartern loaf, rising in pro portion, would he 16d. This, however, he thought was to be attributed to the mode of fixing the assize; but at all events it furnished an additional reason for further enquiry, is hich certainly ought to be prose cuted with all proper diligence and dispatch. This is mild have the immediate effect oT fixing the price at its just level, and allay the ferment which had been excited in the public mind. It was contended by some, that by the proposed regulation, 80s. would he the minimum price, while others maintained that it would ntore probably be the maximum. These, and all other differences on the subject, would be best settled by au enquiry. But if England did not produce enough for its own consumption, and if it could not import under 80s. it*was quite clear that 80s. mast in that case be the minimum price. It was also well known that the two last alteration, in •he Corn Regulations, the one in 1791, and the other in 1804, had the effect of raising the price. On.the best legislative form of the measure, there was un doubtedly a difference of opinion even among those most favourable to it; and a question lay between allowing importation at a certain duty ,and prohibiting it under a certain rate. Of one fact he could speak, and that was the distress of the tiller of the ground. In the district of which he knew most that distress was very great, and its pressure upon the class of the labouring poor peculiarly worthy of attention by Parliament. But he could tint comprehend how that distress should have spread to the extent supposed,. or how the general agricultural body could hive much reason to complain. The years 1811, 12, and 13, were years of high prices ; wheat was 61. a quaiter, and. the last of those years eminently abun dant. It was difficult to conceive how the reduction Af prices of ■ few months should have produced any very .erinus general calamity among the receivers of such profits, and particularly while all this time the re ice of cattle continued so high. But what did all those doubts and difficulties lead to? Why, they showed the necessity of enquiry. The remedy was to be knows, only in knowing the cause of the evil. For his part he attributed the evil to the general dis arrangement produced by a2O years' war. Ile thought that such a state of things necessarily in cluded sacrifices on all sides of the community, and lie hoped to see the Government sensible of the va lue of retrenchment in their expenditure. He hoped to see them turning to the great expedient of cutting off superfluous expences. But he was not to be pre sumed as here taking up the cause of any portion of the public, but of all. Ile claimed this enquiry for the benefit of the agricultural interests itself. The only thing to be really dreaded on the subject was a prejudiced or partial enquiry. All orders of the state deserved protection. The agriculturist un doubtedly deserved it like the rest. The clothier came to the House for protection. The laud-holder had the same right. It was but lately that the West India planter came for protection, and we had not only given it, but restrained our profits arising from land by giving him the distillation. The Yorkshire woollen manufacturer came for protection ; and tails clothing less necessary than food ? The Newcastle collier came for protection ; and was fire less neces sary time corn? We gave it in that case; we would give it in this. Protection was the habit of the Legisla ture: but to make it beneficial,it should be wisely given ; the ground should be fairly ascertained by enquiry. Where was the objection against this investigation ? There was no pressure in point of time. The ports were shut. No corn could come in for three months. But the public mind was agitated. Was the agita tion to he cured by hurry ? The idea of hurry was, however, but now thought of. The subject had been commenced last Session. A Committee had sat on it before its close. After the opening of this, an unusual waste of time was suffered to lake place, and now comes the Minister, afraid of a moment's delay for enquiry. He would not touch on the pro ceedings out of the House, disgraceful as they were to the character of the country, and unfortunate and eminently injurious to the cause which those persons asho had so acted, desired to support ; but the House were, he trusted, not to be driven by that miscon duct, from the soberness of their derision. But was it not possible to distinguish between such individuals and the petitioners whose representations now lay on their table? Who did they find signing those papers? They found the great multitude of the mer chants, and bankers, and other eminent persons of the opulent, city of London ; they found the people of Westminster; they found the great manufacturers of the towns in tl►e interior, all demanding the at tention of the House to this question. It might be said, that they were prejudiced. Perhaps they were ; perhaps so was he ; but, for both, the cure was enquiry. The English merchants, the English manufacturers, were not now to stand out in sup port of obvious absurdity ; they, he firmly believed, had that manliness and solidity of judgment, which •ould not suffer them to persevere in the wrong when the right was laid before them. A Noble Lord (Literpool) had said he would not urge the measure except as it seemed of importance to the general in terest. It was quite impossible that when the case I was so snide out to the satisfactiou of the Petitioners' understandings, they would nut acquiesce in the de cision, whatever it might be: but first they must lie instructed by enquiry. On all those grounds, he would move the House that further enquiry should be made into the matters relative to grain and the laws on the subject. He did not wish to trouble the House with any further observations, and by no means to dictate the mode of enquiry: but if he might suggest the form apparently most tidvan tageous, it would be by calling witnesses to their Lordships' bar. say, that, as long as there was a single man in the ctuttstry who. wished to petition,. Partjernent °ugh! to p toe. He, thenefare, rectievtnended to their Lordships to agrei to the motion. It was impos sible for them, even if- they ceuld, pass the. Bill to,, night, and obtain the Regent's assent to-morrow, to prevent the discus ions which they might be anxious to avoid. These discussious would arise upon mo tions for the repeal, and in ether shapes, that coeld not he evaded. He agreed most cordially in his Noble Friend's motion • and if the discussion on the Bill itself should alter his opinion—no false shame should.prevent him from retracting the opioion which, he now held. Tliu Earl of lIARDWICKB defended the Com mittee, and explained its proCeedings. The first en quiry in which it was occupied, was to ascertain the priee at which grain could be imported. The want of tonimunicatinn with the Continent prevented the , evidence froth beiug so perfect on that head as could be wished. With respect to the conimerce of corn front the Baltic, it was complete; but there was a deficiency in the inteligence regarding France, Hol land, and the Netherlands, from which such an im mense supply had recently taken place. There was another head of enquiry relative to the manufacture of flour from grain, and of bread from flour.— The Committee had a difficulty on that Subject; and in former; times it was fOund impossible to combine it with the general subject. His Lordship then en tered into a detail of correspondence between the Conimittee and several petitioners, from which it 'appeared, that the Committee had taken every means to collect evidence for or against. Lord LIMERICK was induced to rise chiefly to observe on the !Impute of the Noble Lord (Grey), who, in talking of Irish agriculture, seemed to con sider Ireland as not a part of the United Kingdom, as a foreign country, whose interests were in opposi tion to those of England.-L.[Lord Grey said, iq a low tone of voice, that he was misunderstood. Lord Limerick said, if the Noble Lord 'had ity thing to address to him, he . must address it eft his legs, unless it was something private; if it was ad dressed in that House, he would try to. answer; if out of that House, he would try to answer it there too.—[Cries of Order ! and Lord (t'r'ey rose to rx plain.]—Lord Limerick contended that his nation was a reply.—Lord Grey, however, prp: seeded. Lord LIMERICK professed himself satisfied viIDI the explanation, and declared that no man was NH prone to take offence. Ireland had, by a late cen— sus, about six millions of people; of those two thirds were cultivators. In the course of the last year no less than 500,000 quarters of wheat had ar rived in Ireland from France, and reduced the far mers almost to ruin. Earl SPENCER was anxious for empairy l , The nature of the importation from France and Flanders, still so unascertained, was certainly a good ground for further Inamimition. Lord ST. JOHN observed, that we had'begun the war against France by refusing to send her corn.— . She then, and far a long period before, was an im porting cnunlry. Klogisnd was an exporting one. The slate of thins lied been singularly changed, and France was now coming to overflow us. This Noble Lot d seemed to be against the motion. Lord BIJ LK F.LEY was peculiarly connected with a manufacturing district, and his knowledge of its necessities would make him vote for the motion. Load st nmou'rri conceived the motion to found itself on two things,— the necessity of having more information and respect for the rank and number of 'toe petitioners, which was supposed to be involved in I the delay of tho measure. As to information, he was !surprised to hear that now called for. There was in fact no one subject in the whole rarfge of political economy on %% Inch our information had been so full, nay so voluminous. It had been the subject of 20 years. A great number of volumes, and some of i them of great excellence, had been written on the ' question. In 1791, the subject had been discussed. Again in 1801,' again in 1806, it had come under re vision: two Committees of the House of Commons . had investigated it ; it was now examined by a Com. mittee of their own. There was no ground for the idea that the Committee had proceeded on ex parte evidence. They had evernined the question diligently in its 'rations bearings as the house had heard, and their opinion was pronounced with all obvious Rh partiality. As to the motion for eiejelry, why did the House hear it now for the first time ? During ' the six weeks that passed from the first oteeting of Parliament, not one sy liable had been dropped en :the subject, except by a Noble Lord (Grenville), who at the recess talked of it as one of the questions necessary to be discussed. On the. first day of their last assembling, a Noble Lord gave notice that be would not propose the further sitting of the Com. mittee, thus giving room for Noble Lords to declare any intention they might have of following op the ! topic. But here again, not one sy liable was said from the 19th of February to the 13th of March.— ; The Noble Chairman assigned his reasons why fur., ther information might be wanting. That referred to France. That information was now, however, fully given. The immense importation had given it to them, and they had the further information of a re port a.nd a measure founded on it, permitting ex. port under 49, a price with which it was impossible that our agriculturists could attempt to contend.--1 The Noble Lord proceeded to state, that mere the! motion acceeded to', the House might go on ex- l aminiag witnesses till the dog-days, and after all there would be no end to the enquiry. The House had ample grounds to legislate upon already, and they mint at any rate exercise their own judgment in time last resort. The Noble Lord had suggested the possibility of the Irish underselling the English farmer, and had stated this as a fit subject for farther enquiry : but was the House preparill to make any such distinction ? As well might the House enquire into the rates at which farmers in various parts of England, in Devonshire, Cernwall, and Yorkshire, could raise their prodoCe. The question was, whe ther we were not rather to protect the supply from Ireland, than from other clienteles which could either give or withhold it, as it pleased their respective Go. veraments. No man entertained a higher respect for the peOtioners thins he did: tie wished that the pe o pl e of this country should always . think and 'speak freely on the great interests of the nation s and should ap proach both Houses of PArliaisseut with their sent'. On Lord Grey's concluding, many Lords rose at once : : The Earl of DERRY declared his conviction, that the,potitiolis of his fellow-subjects were always en siled to the ninst actions consideration. This opinion Ire had bold lb/41GO life, ■nd hat was the loss likely sp abandon it go sech an occasion, when the table sl,as rrowd..d with them. lie hod presented many Iskesself, with the prayers of which, unfortunately, IA ;nobl tint agree ; but 41,* they were all dictated by I e most honourable and conscientious motives, they ould be attended te. He would even go so far u to e e effect t he y e -------- -- _„. . ________ _ -,...,„,---,, w holl y meets. At the SOW time he had to .remitek,e(bish7ftat• to what an alternative would they he driven O n one side, supposing the Bill to raise the - price of s verg few 'of the paiiiii , ons asked for des; i> eiqr, preient further • corn (and unless such were its int a e i t l i d tio c i o u n a s n e r s i neithet asked for, nor offered ,‘ evidence. They were for no change in the Coro really did not see what it meant), and supposing the Laws. To plettssothem, the Bill new in its progress price of labour to rise also, would it tot operateto the must at once be stopped. But would this meet the serious depression of agriculture, views of the Noble Mover, or of their Lordships of trade and commerce ? B4t if the price of b. earl should generally? He saw great inconvenience its the sell - increase, and the price of labour not increase w ith i t, pense, anxiety, and irritation, which any unneces- he would ask their L ordships whether.. th ey we , e sary delay would produce, aud, therefore, should op- prepared to contemplate so awful a situation such pose the motion. ; circumstances would involve? No agreed most fu.ly Lord KING ridiculed the idea that, when the ' in the doctrine that the interests of all polies in th e House was called upon to make a great alteration in state were intimately connected : the House, there. • domestic policy, it should be assigned as a reason for fore, ought to be the more careful, how under th e making tio enquiry, that the great mass of the pe- pretence of assisting one interest, it might be ie f i s t titioners were egalnst any alteration at all. All that injuring all. He believed in his conscience that the the proposers of the Bill meant to concede was five - landed interest would feel the most serious disadvad. days for its consideration, though in the face of a tage from this measure. Al to Ireland, it had barn greater mass of petitions than ever were before pre. the object and aim of his political life to cenfer all seated to the House; and this was called avoiding possible benefits upon that nation, yet when h e 'wa l all unnecessary delay. He should vote for enquiry. asked to shut up all the ports of the world agai n ,t Lord MOUNTJOY opposed the motion, found- . Great Blitain, except the ports of Ireland, h e f elt ing his argoments chiefly on the distressed state of , he had then a duty to perform as a British subject, the agriculturists of Ireland. • He objected to the very imperfect and inacc urate The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, that conscious statements of the averages on which it must be ut . of the vital importance of the subject now before the terly unsafe to found a permanent measure, and in. House, it had received from him the most anxious , sisted that the market price bore no regular prop or . ' consideration, and the result was, he was more firmly ; tion to the standard price. Nor should it he f orgot . fixed than ever in the opinions he originally main- , ten that the state of the currency was so fluctuating, ! tamped. He admitted to his Noble Friend that there that what was 80s. now, was, at the time of th e Ps i. ' were some poiti•s on which sofficient enquiry had not deuce given, equivalent to 965., and might be b u t ' taken place, namely, on the mode of taking the 72 5., if the situation of thiugs contemplated by the averages of corn, and regulating the assize of bread. Chancellor of the Exchequer, should ever occur. He `These, however, were topics by no means essentially thought that there should have been some eoun i na „ connected with the Bill before the House ; and he tion as to the state of the distilleries, and how they must say, in justice to the Noble Lord at the head' would be affected by this measure, for they were iii ;of the Committee last • year, that he never saw a ; important and productive* branch of revenue. He Chairman labour so hard as he did to get evidence of i concluded a long and elaborate speech by obse rv i ng , all sorts. For himself, he only viewed the measure that nothing had so much contributed to the prospe. 'as a protection tai the British farmer, and therefore i rity and reputation of this country as the confidence he did not tate much about the precise importation of the mass of the people in the landed interest, and . price that might be Geed. In this view, thinking he conjured their Lordships to pause before they gave OW the price ought not be lower than 801. he I existence to a measure which might have the dreadful I would have been prepared to go as far as even 90s. effect of shaking that hitherto unshaken confidence. or Ms. as beioraalculated more effectually to iecure —Wear, hear!] domestic supply, and when the proper time arrived The Earl of LIVERPOOL would abstain from he should be prepared to assign his reasons for this entering into the question at this particular stage.— opinion.. In the mean time he should advert to some He could not refrain, however, from allodiug to• 1 parts of the evidence before the Committee, on which that branch of it which had been so Ovally mis. his Noble Friend (Lord Grey) had commented. It conceived, he meant the exclusive protection it was (was true that Mr. Mant, one of the persons eve- said to confer upon the manufacturing interest. Did • mined, had given it as his opinion that 725. would it confer any such distinctive protection, it should `repay ; the farmer; but tbis was the supposition of the not have had his support, • not from any disrespect ; removal of the Income Tax, and of the wages of to the manufacturer, but from a long and close es. labour being lowered. The formet of these condi- perience, that no benefit could be conferred upon Lions had indeed taken place; but were the yeti- i one class without embracing the whole. Bat his tioners, he would ask, prepared to consent to the i view of the present subject was, that the class ia , latter? Would they not find it better to leave bread society whose interest it more particularly benefited, 'somewhat dear, with good wages, than cheap bread was, in fact, the poorer order. It seemed to them and no wages at all. The latter of these alternatives, that permanent supply of food, which would ulti he was sorry to say, was the situation of many of the mately keep down that uticurtain price, of which agricultural labourers in his part of the country, so many complaints were constantly pat forth.-- where bread indeed was cheap, but, from the. want On the point of a delay for further discussion, ha of etnployntent, they had no wages. His Noble ' could only remind their Lardships, that the sub. Friend clad called upon the House to stop Legislat- 'feet had already been amply discussed, and that ing on this subject, until' the currency of the country it was most essential to the people, that the views had recovered its standard value. This, if listened 'of the Legislature, whatever they may he, Mould to, he feared would entail an absolute prohibition on be speedily hrot fieciairety promulgated. Then, to the measure for years to come. It by no means fol- use the vulgar phrase, every person wevirttifknow lowed, that if 80s. were fixed as the importation price, . how to fit the coat to his own back. 'The truth it would he also the minimum price of corn. This ; was, the country for the last six months had s u f. was contradicted by the whole history of our Corn fered more from the state of uncertainty in which Laws; and during many years of the last century this topic was placed, than it had done within the the average price had been only 11. 15s. while if the same space of time during any preceding period.— importation price was likely to be the minimum lie could see no ground for the present motion. If price, it should have been as high as 31. He would its necessity was recognized, they may proceed, repeat, that the distress among the agricultural la.. fro-n year to year, and showld finally decide with bourers was extreme; and if agriculture was not, no greater data than alreedy • lay before them.— : protected, they would naturally crowd into the i When the . Bill arrived at in second reading, he ' towns, and thus, by competition, lower the price of would fully enter into the whole subject with a strong manufacturing labour. His object was to afford such , . confidence that the policy and interest •of the coun ' protection to home supply as would, upon an average ' try required its immediate adoption. Before that 1 j pf years, secure abundance, for the supply was neces- stage of the discussion, he pa, ticularly directed the sarily regulated by the demand. lie was disposed attention of the Noble Baron (Grenville) .tel the to speak with every respect of the petitioners ; but • Report of the French ,Agricultural Interest, upon lon questions of this sort, he had seldom witnessed ; whibh the Legislature of that r ouotry had already enlightened proceedings on the part of the great body : proceeded to act. This document abounded with iof the merchants and manufacturers. They were too i mos t i m p ortan t i n f ormat i on . With respect to the apt to consider the present alone,without looking fore, averages, these could surely be a rr a n ged w ith ou t an y Iward to future years. There was only one way den.. , considerable di ffi culty. The entire poi n t a t i ssu e lightening the lower orders on a subject of this kind, ' was this—Does, or does not the agricultural interest 1 and that was by making them experience the benefie : require protection ? If it do, then to what extent dal effects of the law which the Legislature should shall it be offered ? This had better be considered enact. It was a frequent argument in the mouths of . without a direct identity with any new question of the manufacturers, that if we imported grain to this • average ; for, however defective in part this should amount of a million, we exported manufactures to a be, the present average was a serer criterion fOr cal similar amount. There was a more unfounded opi- culation in a practical sense, than any other which nion than this. If by the protection of agriculture the they may be enabled to substitute. The .arable Karl whole of this corn were raised by our own farmers, then took a review of the assize of bread, which, Would not this be preferable to the manufacturer in from its regulations, must necessarily make bread every point of view ? It was impossible to enumerate . dearer in the metropolis than it is in the country. the variety of ways in which the prosperity of the i The propriety of continuing that regu l a ti on wo u ld agricultural classes created's. demand for manufise- ihe a matter of future consideration. Peliticas, it tines. I was true, had poured in ne.iinst it ; these were, ,of Lord DARNLEY spoke in favour of farther en- , course, entitled to attention, but if the same facility quiry, though he had made up his mind as to the pro- I of Petition lay open to the agricultural . , that did to priety of the Bill now - beforethe H-otie.e. 1 the manufacturing interest, he felt convinced the Lord GRENVILLE began by adverting strongly I majorityof the country would be fots,fd fepoerelge to to the danger of legislating on the price of human ' the measure. food. If the House, however, were determined to Their Lordships then divided, when the numbers Outer this dark and slippery path, lie would call upon were— them first to 'pause and give ample time for considera tion. One safe way was to abstain from legislating on the subject altogether; and if the lights which the science of political economy had in modern times dif fuSed on this topic had not yet broke in upon Minis ten, he regretted it exceedingly for the sake of his (solvents (no Pros io) ' 18 N.H.-Conielii, Proxies . fii 2 i' , .l Majority ... The House adjourned at half. nag( one o'clock. country, which was placed under their management. But If present difficulties were supposed to call for some Legislative interference, he should at least be anxious that it be preceded by ample emptiry into all the existing circumstances of the country. The question was not, whether with sufficient application of capital more corn might not be grown, but what capital could be applied to this object, and whether it would not be expended less profitably on agricul. tore than on other branches of business? He must insist that there was nothing in the evidence already adduced which could justify the House in legislating permanently ; the measure professed to' protect the farmer, and 80s. was asked aethe protectinwprice; yet in the teitimony not only was there great variety of oßiuloo'se to the price, but the price, whatever it wasoistaid• Oti• OW then state of charges. It would be much wiser not to legislate at all on this subject, ifOUE OF COMMON. Mr. RANK ES having heti nw.sie. of Tame riatierts trivet nig the new Gussum-hiruse. the Po.t-oflici.. and the Hints thought tint he might now bring diem for directly, with out ail., preliminary observatimw. He Orli mired for an ac• count of the expences estimated, of lintels:ming the site of the new 00110 m-boys-, -well as of the t xpence,already incurred. Mr. LUSH INGIoN had on cti..it to the ntotion, b u t he had reamia so think that the espeate wouhl be le, s 11,40 wind had been estimated. The mai *screed tn. •••• Sir C. iIONCK err 'mike of a motion to-morrow ic'noight, reweling lhe Order of the Mill. 1/1/3111111 1 / 4 .NCE4 IN W I:STM INISTER. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, after having n)ctso the order of the day for the rat • they cOusiileration of the minutes of the proeercliu4 l on Monday last, stated, thia thisobjrctof the Howl on that day, appeared to be, to weary . , in future, vigilant and due attention of the Magistrates to their Auty, in proto)ting the Members of that Iluae ,lie believed that this object had been so far atunnedj • of he he he a ly II Id it, re ii eta ►I Iy [. e . e. ct he lo 11l 1 „ at lot PI ti t he 't. u i e qr It. II n. en r. hr t. Ii go Ut rr Ie ra le IT or thr le do gr • err e. her td $6l re ilc ul 11" Fe' for to ho - wi Io• tfll se id ne ld 'p Ct bill • he In Pe iis ftt iu 011 d, he In ha i. no eh dil be co b. lii et Wl Pe 4 ini o co be le to PI If in: th Ee Pt 1R be Ig it ire re a Obi V 11 tli 'to 3r at rt 0 1 If d , P ' .fr h rl el t r. it a • a a 1 • 1 • • • 114 !, • =;s