The Statesman. — London, England, 1818-04-15 00:00:00

MPIIPP" -? "" - MIPPw"' ~. "~. t i~7l. 'f7 f C . \A' o , '~ o ecting to reply to the Message: be was not dole to form any opinion of his own, on the subject .ef that Message, without consulting others. For these moons it appeared to him that the Noble Earl was bound to state more distinctly to the House, the grounds on which be expected that their Lordship were to adopt his advice, and depart from all former precedents. He had no hesitation in declaring, that. the course which the Noble Earl proposed appeared to not t> disrespectful towards the Crown, but also unfair to _the Crowe, the House, and the People. It - Oa nalfair to the House, if their Lord *hips were disposed to carry the Message into effect, mot to allow threats opportunity for going up im. Sitediately with the Address. On the other hand, if *bey thought there were any thing in the circum; Mums of the country which required that they . should not concur in the recommendation of the Message, it was unfair both to the Crown and the country not to say so. Wby was their Lordships' character to suffer the imputation of disrespect to the throne by an unnecessary delay in performing their duty ? The practice which the Noble Esti had adopted of consulting Private Committees must have a most inauspicious appearance in the ey es , of the country.---What was it but calling on the Howie of Lords to defer what they aught to do now until to-morrow, that Ministers might have time to tamper with those who are to de. dde on the question ?—[llecte, hear!] —He should therefore move, by way Of amendment, such an Ad dress es be thought their Lordships' character requir ed them to adopt. He would propose, that they - should express their seal and attachment to the Mouse of Brunswick, and their wish to carry into effect the objects of the Message, as far as that could be done in the distressed state of the country. His own opinion—and what his opinion was, he should never shrink from stating on any question—was, that if the marriages contemplated in the Message torte to take place, suitable provision ought to be made for the Princes; but the country bad already provid ed so well for the splendour and dignity of the Crown, that the provision could be made without imposing any new burden on the People, and in that may be thought that splendour and dignity would he best consulted. He concluded by moving, instead of the words " that this order be discharged, words In the following purport, to be substituted after the mord that in the original motion : " An humble Aida.. be presrided 10 Its Koval Highness she Prince Itri t crt. to return Thalia t o pi, Itosal liixhne.l 'at t h e Information be had been pleated to romeanit ay re s pecting thr Intended hiariage of his Royal Higliso.s the Duke f Clarence with •be Princess of Sure-biriningrc, nod f the Duke a' Cam bridge o itb tar Prince's of Heme I ' press the m are m o s . of the HOW is that arningeno a., and In a s sure hi s Rani Higlioros that their L otti.hip" a. old ctieesfully irtarier in all treasures swee-sary in snake -soli suitable provision as the twinsion requlred, and as the seal. attochwant. aid loyalty. li;sich their Loidships feel towards his Majesty's Family and .Goveirmrnt, and the lively sense they entertain of tar advan tages of rears mg the aorcesonin to the:Moor is 1.. F'an.sl Brurowick dictate. bat due regard heir( had In the present burdened slalt vt the People o f t h e Cc oto ry." The LORD CHANCELLOR proceeded to put 'the questiun, that the words proposed to be left oat ,stand part of the motion. Lord HOLLAND observed, that he had moved that the words of Isis motion he substituted after the • word " that" of the original motiou ; and that the* manner in which his Lordship proposed to put the question was not proper. There were many prece dents for Addressee being moved in the manner be 'bad adopted on this occasion. The LORD CHANCELLOR handed the motion • 'lO Lord Holland, and requested that he would pot * it into a proper shape, as at present its form was not consistent with the manner he wished to take in mow. jug it. Lord HOLLAND said, he had had no communi• ration with any one as to the way in which the mo tion ought to be drawn up. He had written it on the spur of the occasion, and would now make any alteration which might be necessary in point of form. The LORD CHANCELLOR could also say, that he bad had no communication with any person as to the manner in which the motion ought to be put, and, therefore, had put it in the usual way in which Amendments were submitted to their Lord ships. The words Of thi motion being altered, the ques tion was put in the way Lord Holland intended it. Lard SIDNIOUTH wished to recal so their Lord ships' recollection the circumstances under which the present discussion commenced. The Noble blatquis who spoke first had said, that if the consideration of the Message was postponed, the discredit of that proceeding would belong to the Noble Earl who had braved the discharge of the order, and not to the Hone. His Noble Friend readily admitted the truth of this observation. He candidly acknowledged That U any discredit belonged to the proceeding, it oogh t to fall on the advisers of the Prince Regent, and on himself in particular. It had been asserted that no reasons were stated for the postponement ; hot he understood his Noble Friend to have intimated, that he would explain the grounds of. the postponement when the Message should he taken into consideration to-morrow. The Address to be moved was not an ordinary congratulation or vote of Thanks, and his Noble Friend justly expected that the Rouse would look to him for the explanation of some plan or mea. sure as the consequence of the Message, and also that their Lordships would not be disposed to come to a l vote without due inforesatiori on the subject. The Noble Baron, however, • who would be the first to object to an Addressproposed without soy informs- Owe, now wishes to vete one for which no ground whatever bas been laid. Was it not proper that the MelltUre ebl.ll was to be proposed to-morrow should I then be explained ?' Considering the necessity there would.be for going into details, it was pot candid to call on his Noble Friend for explanations now. Al terations might be made in the plan. Different im pressions w Irch had been produced might be removed. —Wear, hearq—ile world repeat, that different impressions Wight be removed, and alterations sug. gested, which .would require consideration. These were reasons for delay which ought to weigh with his Majesty's Ministers on such an occasion. His Noble Friond would be prepared to-motrow to give their Lorepi the requisite information. As fur the Ageed/neat, proposed by the Noble Baron, it was of a enure totally unprecedented, and was one which he was confident their Lordships week% tint adopt. Lord KING believed this was the first time that a Mboister had given e decided negative to arc Address AIL of Thinks and Congrrulltion purposed to the E. I I 2 ~'. 1 li i~ "wwiwr .** f ._~ -.-- •Throne. It was the meal practice to move an Ad dress to the Throne on the day offer a Message was received, and aow. thwNeble,Eark, wltheist our retina, desired the Home to abasden tfiht plactlce. It apiieured that the *hie Lords on the other side et the 'loose cootd nut' make op 'their - Wadi as to' what ought to be done ontil they receded hints from the House on iitick be stood they were ready to, vote an Address as usual' in morn to the Message, gsaysliog their gnawer with the words which Noble Friend bad inserted at the close of his motion. He should, therefore vote for the amendment. The Earl of t f AUDERDA LE felt it to he a very t i extraordinary proposition to delay the Address wbicli ought to be returned to the Prince Regent's Message.: But their Lordships' had to consider whether it would be more proper to delay the Address for a day, or to adopt that which his Noble Friend had proposed, which, L f hi s ( +Winn, would be more dis reaper-Ifsl to the (`roan f i l lon the postponement pro. posed by the Nolti,F„ lf i. There was no precedent of any such Add fp . as fhtst which his Noble Friend bait mated ev er been voted by the House.- - The words with wino. be terminated it would imply, that their f a nr.l.hips had not a proper feeling for the taxes with which the country was burdened. To agree to it would be to acknowledgethat their Lord ships had tieglected their duty. He, therefore, could rim vote for the amendment. The Mattiois of LANiDOWNE observed, that the House was placed in an unprecedented situation. If the amendment moved by his Noble . Friend was unprecedented, their Lordships must perceive that, such as it was, it was forced upon him by the unpre cedented conduct of his Majesty's Ministers. Their Lordships had no other alternative left but to ogre* to the amendment, or to adopt the extraordistaryr course proposed by Ministers. The Noble Earl had assigned no reason to induce their Lordships to de part from the usual course: all that they had heard was,that they would bi k informed to.morrow of the reasons why they were not to do- their duty to-day. The Noble Viscount, however, had gone a little far ther, and made an important reveletiots. He had said, that by the delay certain impressions might per haps he removed.—( No, no! from the Ministerial Benches.)—He had' ttended to the Noble Viscount', words, and was roubdesit that impressions to be re. weaved, and alterations to be made in the plait, con stituted the reasons which he had assigned for delay. lie would ask, how were the impressions spoken of, whatever might he their nature, to be removed ?-- Cereatuty not by argument, for none had been em. played. But it appeared there was seine mode by which im.ressions were to he removed, and site. rations made, without the knowledge and concur. fence of that House; and that, while that process was going on, their Lordships niust patiently await the result. A 4 the mode by which this was to be sc. complialted was, it seems, not fit to be stated, the House were required to adjourn until Ministers came fully prepared with the result of their secret consul. lesions. The House was therefore brought into this strange predicament—that whether they adopted the motion of the Noble Earl or the amendment of hie Noble Friend, their conduct would be liable to ob jection. The motion of the Noble Earl appeared on the face of it the most disrespectful to the Crown, end the most improper for their Lordships to adopt; end upon that ground, if his Noble Friend persisted isr putting his amendment, he would vote for it.— Ministers had by their conduct imposed upon the House the necessity of choosing between two diffi culties. Lord HOLLAND felt it necessary to say a few words in reply. His Noble Friend (Lord Lauder. dale) had regarded his amendment as more objection. able than the motion of the Noble Earl. Would his Noble Friend theu suggest any other mode of getting rich of the difficulty in which the House was placed ? this motion was a consequence of that of the Noble Earl, fur the mode he bad adopted in moving the amendment was rendered necessary by a proposition to discharge the Order of the Day. His motion cer. tainly would not he respectful, if carried after that Order had been discharged. He could not help feel ing that he came to this contest with the Noble Earl on very unequal terms. Ile came expecting to vote an Address on the Message of yesterday ; bet the Noble Earl entered the House, after having consulted with others, and these others again with others, and perhaps with individual Members of Parliament. — His Noble Friend had said that the amendment was unprecented. He certainly must acknowledge that it was in some measure unprecedented, because there never had before been such a motion to amend ; but he would contend that the form was not utrprecedent ed, for there had been several instances of Addresses to the Crown being moved in the way he had pro posed this, by adding words after the word that in the original motion, the remaining words of that mo tion being afterwards negatived. He could not com prehend the ground out which the Noble Earl per sisted in postponing the business on which the House, ought now to enter, unless it were supposed that the word " to-morrow" carried with it some estraordinary spell, some magic charm. Yesterday the Address was to have been moved to.morrour-r-te day it was to•morrow egain. On Thursday it might still be to-morrow, and on Friday it might be found that two days would fortunately intervene. Thus the measure might be postponed until Ministers were fully prepared to come to a vote. Ilia Noble Friend had objected to certain words in the Address he bad moved. The way to care that was to propose an amendment. Ile might move that the words he dis liked' should be omitted. It was, however, very ea traordinary that his Noble Friend should suppose, that the bare act of praessing soy virtue was a proof of the want of it. But his Noble Friend had not taken his opposition to the Amendment on i suffi ciently large scale. He seemed to have forgotten that the Address also spoke' of the seal, attach- Meld, and loyalty of the House. Nay, his' N , ble Friend bad but a few days ago agreed to an Address to the Crown on the marriage of the Princess Elizabeth, in which these sentiments were expressed, sue never intimated that tbst Address was soliamed as to throw a suspicion of disloyalty on the majority of their Lordships. Did his Noble Friend suppose that these were not the sentiments by • hicb the Lordships were usually governed ? But where was the disrespect, as he bad framed his motion ? It would appear on the ',small+ ) that on a certain tiny TF-IF, STATFSMAN Z. _ a single Yeer had proposed that a motion fpr Ad drew should lOischerged. On looking atlete.Jour. noa;vht , Crinta would And, 4ligt the House bad ni bbled tlifi i i)iopekion, and had toted the_44dress. TheiPCIWWn, cnnyincrif, would - graciously ovtli t inoliNlke disloyalty of thi. Peor,and would never seek to know his nest.—LLauerterj—Thvigurogs would prevent thasii front making• who he was. They would say tin" 'did not wish to' lbsew_whn.thtdis• affected patina was who had refugia an Affniesicat - the Throne On such en occasion. The Sovereign would doubles. east a veil of oblivion over the transactlint : Anti if information were offered to be given lilia on the subject, he would reject, or act as Pompey did *ben he destroyed the papers found in the camp of Sartorius. If, however, the Noble Secretary of State world, after all, promise to agree to the amendment te4abrroir, he would now agree to his motion for dis •eitarging the order. • The /fosse then divided, when the nimbus were, 'for the amendment. Contents . . . 12 N on-cooteitts • . 51 elaj..rity . —39 The Marquis of DOW Nilll RE moved fora re. turn of the incomes of the Dukes of Clarence, Kent, Cumberland, Sussex, and Cambridge, from military, naval, or civil app.uintments ; also of all pensions rir other allowances, as well as grants from the Droits, or any other sources. since 1800. The Earl of LIVERPOOL objected only to the terms of the motion, but bad no hesitation in acceding to give the substance of the inform ation required. lie particularly objected to the term " sources." After some discussion, in which Earl GaoAvcnon. the Marquis of LANSDOWBE, and the Marquis of DOWNsIIIRE chiefly participated,. a new motion: was proposed, worded in a different manner, when the Bishop of PETERBOROUGH objected is IS, as being altogether rlisre•pectful mud indelicate. Lord'KENYON thought the naval and military emoluments ought lobe omitted. After some further conversation, in which Lard HoLLARD and the Marquis of LANSOtriVaijoined, the ;Earl i.f LIVERIPoOL again expressed hifieediness to give tbe information required ; and the motion was left to stand over till to.morrow. BANK OF ENGLAND. The Earl of LAUDERDALE rose, in porroance of his notice, to more for an account of the Some ad vanced to the Government by the Bank of England, including the Sums now outstanding in Exchequer Bills and other Government securities. The Noble Lord alluded to the Committee of that House, which had formerly enquired into the affairs of the Bank, and the information they had obtained respecting the advances of the [link on Government Securities, which had induced Parliament to impose certain re straints upon them. It was necessary that similar information should now be obtained, for the pOrpolle of enquiring how far the interruption of cash pay• omits had depended upon •such proceedings. He be. Sieved that if four millions had been refunded to the Bank at the commencement of the year, the present difficulty had not been experienced. The Noble Earl then concluded with moving— " TAM there be laid befige e Horee pa Heenan, of the total amours' oral. advinfrf m alt try the MIL Y of Engiusod to the Goverstrnesis. itirluthi.g all Bums slow o:morwhing upon F,sehe. quer !sins or DOC, Gt.% ... H y m en. ur i, te ,." The Eat I of Li V ERPOOL said, that of all the' motions for information made this Session by the Noble Earl,ltte present was the only one to which he had made any opposition, nor should have done so in the present iustance, did he not feel the extreme im propriety of exposing the private concerns of the Batik. With respect to the former purt of the mo tion, namely the advances of the Bank to the Govern ment, be could have no unwillingness to accede to it ; but the latter. part proceeded too far when it re quired to know how the Bank had employed its own money in the market. The (louse bad no more right to know that than to learn the private affairs of any individual in the country. Lord HOLLAND said, there was no propriety in the illustration used by the Noble FArl, for place any individual in the country in the same situation with the Bank of England, he would contend for the right of Parliament to enquire into the manner of em ploying his money. if au Act of Parliament were passed for enabling him to avoid paying his debts, it would be perfectly just in Parliament to enquire how he was laying out his mousey. The Earl of LAUDERDALE, in reply, said, that his reason for desiring to kuow how much of the money of the Bank was laid out in Exchequer Bills was, that such a anode of employing its money had beets prohibited by Act of Parliament. At least, no Exchequer Bills could be taken directly by the Bank front the Treasury, but es far as the resump tion of Cash-payments was concerned, be could see no difference between them and those which the Bank might purchase for its notes in the market. The motion was negatived without a division. The House then adjourned. • HOUSE OF COMMONS. An account was ',resented of the Dishorsensents of the Com missioners for tier Reduction of the National Debt, from 511 t of tktubcr, 1815, to the sth of February, 1815. Sir C. KU KEE I,L presented a Petition from Ibe Wool growers of the South Downs in Sussex. praying that a Duty may he laid upon the impomationmf Wool. and also praying an enquiry into the -object.—Laid on the table. her. C. KU FLER presented a Petition from the Parish of St. John, in Kilkenny, praying for the repeal of the Hearth•tax, together with certain other Asses-ed Taxes.— Laid on the table. ATLK COMPANIES. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said be held in his hand a Petition from certain Inhabitants of the Parish of St. Marple-nonne, praying that they might be allowed to erect Water-works for the supply of their own psti ish. Ile was it:di/red t.i take up this mutt.. its consequence of the interest be took in a Bill which was introduced into Parliament in the last Session. called the Paving of the Metropolis Bill. Originally. be said, there were but onc or two Water Companies in the metropolis; but on se count of the vast increase of population, a variety. of M titer Companies applied to Parliament to be incorporated. These Companies hail endeavoured to tinder:ell each other, some of them ()erring to stqoply their water at Ws. and others= low fib ss. per quarter. The conseqrsence had been, that the had been so depressed in their financrs,that scone of theta had been obliged to stop their works, and leave the Public without anv water at all. At length the Companies had carved out - distinct portions of the metropolis firr themselves, and by that means man) of the inhabitants were Rot supplied with water, and the Compauirs hod imposed as high a rate as possible.-- Under these cir.lialsonices. it ..a. Ms wish to mike it ce rtain maximata of rate beyond which they ( mold not go ; and he was also peculiarly tlkie's. that a re erse should be atatle In case of fire. It was a Wnentahleicircuorstm.ce. that. at the fire which took place sit or seven weeks ago in the St r a nd . no fewer than se. en Ines were lost t and that far the space of a whole hoar water hnyo:!iblc to lac obtain d. Ile nos drsiroas, therefore, yrnwgr7 Aiklkock, El . ~ a _,~ ~r that ibis Petit iita sbw. hi be refs., red ma Committee 7=9 when ibe proper arrouseitts tai be made he i. , lan% g Kill to the effect be stated. was in • A the House. float the Water Con, 0 1 ' propriety of the present menopo cided with him in thialting .lost it mild be e e ti parties to refer the matter to I comiantatina el a Puh a . memory Committee. After a hw Words from Mr. W MUM. the Peddle o n brought all. and a Committee was appilated accordingly; Mr. HOLM E SOU iM Lit hroogla up die PithAtfahaf te c wark Bridge Comm tire. find a Bill was ateeettito hose* i i aceording to the prayergUALsaae...._ sO5 presenfMint 'Pefttl favour of the Cut on Mattufartnring Bill Uposa the mot' of Lord LASCHLL; . . _ ...prin. toe t •Siro ShilleriTstiti s . Ablet.iian ta:,oo I) presented Pollnow frail taa Way, aseu el ) hts ate.te Mapping &oink tbe ito t a r ebigi e Rai — 7 pm) ng that their eesc may betaken tutees, bo the table. Another Petition wis preserited trom the Watermito46 o horegate.otaits, pia), tog that fise Ititilterhlthe wi g Sot pass lama law.--Laid ea he table. WOOl, LAWS. Mr. WALTER. BURRELL moved for theep. Ipoisitmenf of a Select Committee to entittire.int s iha State of the Laws regulating the Wool 'beide.' Irkg 'Hon. Gentleman endeavoured, at inns* le t tithos " La o w wthei from h uellPid i t ni e us roui:, f the Laws, but and thetee tone of voice in which he spoke, *0 could only.eo; leo the general purport of his observetiona.. • Lord LitSCELLES said no ground whateeel-li e / been laid for an application to Parliament at them ; sent time. .1 he only ground for calling for thol e; I terference of the House was the depreciation of W e s. Bat Wool had been ii•ing ever since 1816. sates* since last year it had risen considerably. The prise of Wool war actually now rising in this mreetty ; and our own stipple, and the quantity we geoid . * tans from abroad. were ivadequate ro the supply... It would be a gratification to the House to Imre, after what they hart heard of the distress.. of tie r twontsfacturers, and particularly of the woollen an. eufactures in Yorkshire, that at no period since tee establishment of that manefactore, had they bete itr Li M.iati‘hing a state as they were in last year, excepting the year 1813. He spoke of the yards of cloth menufactured. It was said the manufactories could afford to give this b ion to the growe rs of fine Wool; but when Gentlemen Wheel of Pam couragine the growth of fine Wool, they forgot that this was at the elpence of long Wool, and that ,though we could get fine Wool from any part of the world. we could get long Wool from no ot h er part of the world. That long Wool which we emit get in its part of the world, was precisely the die emiption of Wool which would be exported. Butit would he said, why not refer the matter to a Meet Committee, who 'eight make due enquiry into the subject, and report their opi,pion to the House? Bat in a question which interested so large a proportiew of our nianufactu ring population in the West of Eli land,,and in Yorkshire, it was impossible to go late a Committee without entering into the whole detail of the woollen manufacture—how near the foreleg manufacturer came to our own—and what advantsis our machinery gave us. When a Committee eta moved far in 1816, foreseing the inctinvenience chid might trice faire ; 'such On itivestigeti he bad pee posed that the enquiry should be confined to the price of Wool, and for doing so much censure had been thrown upon him; but the result showed tle propriety of what had been dose. The whole of this case stood on Petitions which had been presented an' lain dormant some time; and there was only one Pelitioas on the subject now lying on.their table. Is 1816, w hen a Committee was appointed to empire i n to the who o f Wool, not one single individual came before them. But things were much improved since that lime, as there was now even a want of the raw material, and our supply frum abroad mesquite insufficient. lie saw no ground for going into ski Committee, and he thought it his duty to take thb arose of the 'louse on the subject. Mr. CURW EN could not agree with the aft Mover hint there was now any necessity for a Catesminer.. The price of both long and fine Wool had considerably risen ; and with respect to the careemb a sheep of 60 pounds weight, which a short lime igb sold for 365. 6d. now sold for 561. Was not this h decent advance ?—Though, generally epeakine,.a free trade was advantageous, yet when we considered the extent of the branch of industry that might be enthogered by throwing the trade in •Wdol °peel which amounted to nearly 34 millions* a year, he could not but think the Wool trade ought to be ea esceptibn to the general rule. 'fbe throwing the trade open might, perhaps, pot a million a year is the pockets of the growers of fine Wool; bet would it not be more advantageous to the gronerl of 6tier Wool that a branch of industry producing 34 mils lions to the country should be preserved, then dist they should obtain an additional million hold a free trade!—Would not this branch of industry put a larger sum into the pockets of every farmer, than could get by the other Measure?—lo his opinion, therefore, instead of being benefited, agriculture/ would be injured by the freedom sought for. .• the last time they were before a Cotimittee they WI sot received outs single Petition from any grower at long Wool. Mr. DAVIES GILBERT could not but think that the House would be acting harshly, if ther did not acquiesce in the proposition for an Euquifyv to are whether the monopoly was or was not i $ . furious. • Mr. SIIIFFNER hoped the House would see the necessity of giving the growers of Wool the 'video lion of going into a Committee, to enquire whuiket their claim was or was not reasonable ? Mr. RAM' DA VIS maintained, that as fine Wag was 30 per cent. higher this year‘han it was a 'yew ago, the landed interest received a return which wo ill every revert perfectly adequate. Mr. 11. SUMNER wished to observe, that vio reason why no one came before the Committee in iStas as, that their proceedings were so Wrote!, !holt. , To his knowledge a variety of coetplaitei had been made by individuals that the proceedinpli the CoMmittee were 110 very summary that they had no opportunny of stating their case. • With respect to the observation of a Noble Lord (Lascellen) tha t enquiry w ould be attended with inconvenience, lin hail never known of any investigation taking Ogre into a subject like the present, from which bereft was nit derived by the Public. Mr. Alderman ATKINS contended that a Ii" esportotion of Wool would affect the woollen mi. nufacture l as it would occasion a fluctuation is the ■ I