The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-10 00:00:00

•aid to have mid the expression which bad bees animadverted upon t and be was able to state, after the Noble Lord's explanations, that all be meant to say was, that penons might be admonished of the power of the House to refuse to receive petitions. If the majorities of that House were to permit motives to be ascribed to theta, It would open a door to much abuse. If his lion, Friend agreed to withdraw his motion, be hoped it would be fully understood that the Honourable Mem ber.* opposite admitted that the paragraph in question was most unwarrantable. Mr. S. WORTLEY, in reply, noticed the various epi thets which bad deep applied to his conduct by the Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Bennett:) The Hon. - Mosier said be was " put forward" on this occasion. He threw back the insinuation. How often he (Mr. Bennett) might have been put forward, or by whom, hr knew not. He (Mr. S. Wortley) never had and never would be put forward by any one. The circumstance which had occurred in the course of the debate induced . him to go on with his motion, although lie bad not in tended when be first made his motion to bring the un fortunate Printer to the Bar of the House. He was not the person to blame, but he appealed to the House whe ther, after the declarations of the Hon. Member for tihrewsbury, they ought to let this occasion pass by of expressing their disapprobation of such a gross attack upon the House. lie was ready, as far as lie was per sonally concerned, to give up the motion; and he had Op objection to do so if Gentlemen on the other side would admit that the article in (ideation was wrong. Bnt if they maintained the contrary he should feel it his ditty to have the Printer brought to the Bar and ad tuonished. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that certainly a more detestable and wicked libel had never bent published than that which had been brought under the notice of the Hottse—(Cheers from the Opposition). If be had himself called the attention of the !louse to this subject, it was perhaps no more than in the strict discharge of his public duty lie ought to have dose, and he could only justify himself from having abstained from taking that course, by that self-indulgence which might be al lowed to a Minister. Now, that it was brought before the House, however, be mast say, that to impute to him a desire to prevent the people from exercising the right of petition,• was not only wicked, but absurd. He cer tvinly had Admonished the people not to present Peti tions, complaining of grievances, in which that House could afford them no relief, and such an admonition, he apprehended was as an act of great kindness to the people of England. But when lie was made to say, that be did not wish the people to trouble and take up the due of the House, such a calumny was evidently framed with no other view than to operate upon the iporant mind of the people, au.: be really thought that such a charge was below contempt. Upon the diecassiou relative to the conduct of Judge Best, he did say, that the people ought to be admonished that that House was not a Court of Appeal, and certainly there could not be a greater misfortune to individuals, than that they should be mis led as to the course of remedy which it was right to adopt. The admonition was given by him in the true spirit of the Constitution. and no fair man who heard him, could impute to him any desire of interfering with 1.:.e general right of petitioning. Lord A. HAMILTON said, he was as little disposed to concur with the motion of his Hen. Friend for the ad j:yorninent of the House as with that of the Honourable Centleman opposite, and lie thought the best course wsuld be to withdraw both motions ; he mast say, how ever, that it appeared to him, that an unfair interprets t' on was given to the paragraph in question ; and had hr himself been the writer of that paragraph, lie eboald have resisted snch an interpretation. There was no as c•rtion whatever that the majority had voted for the admonition to the people, and it wits unfair to argue that 'motives were imputed to them by impliration. Mr. S. WORTLEY persisted in pressing the ques t' on to a 'division. Mr. HUTCHINSON agreed with the Noble Lord Lo had just spoken. He had understood the Noble Lird opposite (Lord Castlereagh) to be reading a iecturr to the people of England on the impropriety u;.* Mr. MONCK did not think this unfortunate para. graph worth the time and attention of the House. v hick bad been bestowed upon it. He thought the p -agrapli so far from casting a stigma upon the ma j.,rity of the House, threw the whole blame upon the Aohle Lord (Lord Castlereagh). It said that the voe was against the Noble Lord's admonition, and d:d not at all refer to the majority. There was no vi”e in or out of that House who did not know the d Terence between " admonition" and " motion." mfr coul.l not regard the article complained of as a:: v thing more than a political squib.—(Hear). * Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that if the lion. liSeutleinan, who spoke last, meant to be Counsel for Or' I.:IHW in question. he was pursuing a very hip d:cious line of defence; for the offeuce was much the saute is the eyes of the House, whether the breach of privilege were levelled against him as an individual ...leniber, or against a majority of the House. Mr. CUBWRA espreesed his hope dial the motion would be withdrawn. Mi. S. WORTLEY maintained that the libel was upon the, majority of the House ; and he thought it wits due to the safety of the House to pursue the 111 otlen. Iklr. J. P. GRAM' sal& that the Hononrable Gent. opposite certainly laboured under a great mistake, if Lc sepposed that there was any intention on the part of Pie printer of the Newspaper in question to cast a slat npon the majority of that House, or any dispo- ' sitipu on the part of his Honourable Friends near him I. aoppart utelsan intentiow, bad it existed. Without subeecting himself to the Noble Lord's charge Of ateadisg forward as Counsel. for this Printer, though troin'What he and every Member of that House knew of the gederal conduct of the paper in question, there. fealikblications for which he should more rea. dill Tess himself to be Cuanseli he must say that tliii.firapaptt complained of did nut, in Car construc tion, admit of the interpretation which bad been as- It was mated, that the minority voted admonition of the Noble Lord, not against ition made to Ihi• House, but against the alid sentiipents of die Noble Lord, which he deelacei had, asikabteilly, a material in- .. .. ..• ~ site Mr. HOBHOUSE said. he supposed he should be called a bad Counsel for Mr. Lambert, by the Noble Lord opposite, from the line of argument which he should feel it necessary to take. He was aware that his opinions frequently differed lobo eel° fres the ma)onty of that House ; and on this occasion he meet say, that In his opinion the House had no power to do what it pro posed to do. The SPEAKER said, that on a question involving the privileges of that House he was quite satisfied that it was not competent to the Honourable Member to ques tion the grout* upon which those privileges w ere main tained. He tAted the Honourable Member would feel that the subject upon which he was about to eater was of such importance in itself as to deserve a separate con- sideratiou. 111 r. HOBHOL'SE said, that in obedience to the sug gestion from the Chair, he would only observe, that the paragliaph which was the subject of discussion appeared to have been totally misapprehended. It was very pos sikle that the minority might have voted under an im pression which did not at all induenee the votes of the majority. Nothing whatever was imputed to the ma jority. At the same time he must say, that he did not think this was a fit subject for the deliberation of the House. It was quite clear, as had been observed by an llonourable Member, that this was nothing more than a political squib. Scarcely a day passed in which the worst motives were not imputed to public men ; and, for his own part, be was perfectly aware that he wax constantly held up, by a certain portion of the Press, as a man desirous of overtorniag the Constitution. Ile thought the Honourable Member for Yorkshire had better withdraw his motion, and unconditionally, fur he really could see nothing wrong in the paragraph com plained of. The Honourable Member had asked, what could be more mischievous than that paragraph ? Ile would tell him what was infinitely more mischiev ous—such motions as that which be 'had brought for ward to-night.—(Hear, hear !)—Such motions were cal culated to alienate the people from the (louse of Com mons ; for they would naturally say, " the House is ready enough to pass over the grossest offences against the people :—they will not suffer the conduct of a She riff, who opposes the popular rights, to be called in ques tion; but they will drag a Printer to the Bar, the mo ment an opportunity offers, for infringing the Liberty of thePie4s." Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that the question had now assumed such importance in his mind, that he would not consent to withdraw it. Colonel DAVIES spoke in favour of withdrawing the motions. Mr. G. BENNET said be hail no objection to with draw his motion, if the lion. Member opposite would do the same by his. Mr. BARHAM said, that in point of fart what the Printer had stated was strictly true. It was a literal fact that the Minority had voted against the admonition of the Noble Lord. 'Hs ronfessed himself wholly un able to discover the impropriety which was imputed to the Paper in question. Mr. B. BATHURST contended, that there could be no other ground for withdrawing the motion than the admission required, of the passage alluded to being an unjustifiable attiwk on the majority of that Wine : if that were admitted, he thought his Hanoprablif Friend might withdraw the motion solely on the ground of moderation, and with the hope that the notice now taken of the matter would repress the practice in future ; but she complaint could not he abandoned on the ground that it was unfouuded—L-it was impossible not to consider the passage a breach of privilege, but still it was not his desire that the House should proceed farther, if no attempt to jus tify the offence made it necessary to persevere in tl:e motion. Sir It. FERGUSON said, that it was ;miler an im pression that the Noble Lord had used the words, that he rose with some warmth to call for au explana tion at the time. The explanation of this night, by the Noble Lord was, however, entirely satisfactory. He wished the Honourable Member for Yorkshire to withdraw his motion, for no usau was more jealous of the privileges of the (louse, and yet he (Sir It. F.) saw no libel in the paragraph. There was no 3lens ber at that side, who v ould countenance a libel on the House ; but, iu fact, they did nut conceive this to have been a libel. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, in explanation, that his complaint was not against the number of petitions coming there, but that the petitioners preferred com plaints on subjects of which the House, in the dis charge of its functions, could take no cognizance. Mr. S. WORTLEY asked. was he to nitiler•tand that the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury (Slr. (rennet) would avow the paragraph to be a libel.— (No, no, from the Opposition). Then lie would pram it to a division. After some words from Mr. DENMAN, the floiiat thee divided on the Amendment, when the nuasbcrs were, For adjourning 34 Against it.. - hlajority against the intendment 121 t:pon our return to the tiallery we found Mr. LAME-.: TON on his ler, moving the previous iinestipp.. . - , Mr. BENNET entreated the Md. Meniber for York shire to withdraw his 'notion, as it occupied the Wine of the House whilst so much pressiug business was cominon. Mr.WORTLEY would not consent to withdraw, tw ins on the conditions he had stated. Ile understood these were not to be acceded to.—(No, no, ltom the Op position.) Lord CASTLERF.AGH conceived, the only question was, whether the offence complained of was a breach of privilege which ought to be followed up by calling the Printer of the Morning Chi-oxide to the bar of the House. He (Lord U.) understood his Hon. Friend was not anxious to proceed to that extremity, provided this was not considered a breach of privilege of which the House not to take notice. The only question be con ceived was, whether this was such a breach of privilege as demanded of the House to be followed up by calling the Editor to the liar • for his own part, he thought it a subject that might be very easily accommodated.— (Hear. beare:)—As there appeared nu disposition ou the part of the House to press a measure of minishment, he hoped the Hon. lientieman would withdraw his motion. (Cries of hear ! and No, no.) Lord A. HAMILTON contended, that, previous to calling sprinter to the bar, it had been uniformly the practice to establish some ground for such a measure. ' If the printer should be brought to the bar on !Howley I (Lord it. H.) would ask for what Intlhe been brutish; 1 there ? ' The proposition had been made by the Wn. Uentletian who sat next the Noble Lord, solely because 1' provoked that d he was not Noble lard say now duds, the printer aught to be or because his (Lord A. H.'s) friends at that sideof the Howe would out recant their opinions. (Cbeers.)---Llf the Hosourable tientleasan had conduct ed himself, as is triad In sash eases t _he ouht to have stated the act of ortasiaallty, and caUed for t g he decision of the House epee that question. The Hon; Gentle man ought not to have committed the House to a mea sure so obnoxious.--(Heer, bear.) —He trusted the No ble Lord and his friends would Jegati ve the question, on the ground that se grounds for the motion had been stated, and then would come the question whether the Editor had been guilty of breach of privilege or not. He contended, that no case bad been made out which re quired that the Editor should be called to the bar. Mr. STUART WORTLEY iasisted that the usual abode was to read the paper containing the alleged breach if privilege, after which the supposed offender was called to the Bar of the House, before the question whether the matter was or was not n breach of privilege had I been decided. The SPEAKER declared the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last was perfectly correct in his explanation of the usages of the House. . Dr. LUSHINGTON said, no one could doubt the present case was a breach of privilege. In this admis sion he trusted the lion. Gentleman (Mr. S. Wortley) had gained his object, and hoped be wo uld therefore withdraw his motion. Mr. S. WORTLEY, after a few words, declared his readiness to comply with the wish of the House. He hoped that, in the warmth with which he had spoken during the discussion, no language had fallen from him which had given offence to 'A u y Honourable Gen tleman. After a few words from Mr. I..tutrrox, the motion was withdrawn. ------- ARMY MEDICAL EXPENSES. Lord PALMERSTON presented papers connected with the Medical Expenses of the Artny.—Laid on the table. - - COUNTY COURTS' BILL. Lord ALTHORPE postponed the second reading of the County Courts' Bill, which stood for this day, to Thursday next, the Beth instant. ti AM POUND DISFRANCHISE NI ENT. Mr. S. IVOKTLEY postponed to Tuesday next, the further consideration of the Urampound Disfranchise ment Bill. BANK CASH PAYNIENTS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the postponement to 3londay next of the Bank Cash Payments Act. Mr. BARING wished the Right Hon. Gentleman would name a more distant dal.; and desired to know was it the intention of the Right ilonnitrable Gentle man to bring forward any other motion on the subject The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said (as we understood), it was not his intent' to intro. duce any other subject, except some regulation respect ing the silver tokens issued by the Bank of Ireland. Mr. BARING pressed his objection to so early a day as Monday. The Right lion. Gentleman seined to him (Mr. II.) to consider the question an unimport ant o ne: bitt he begged to tell him that he would move an amendment, referring the consideration of the question nut to a Committee of the whole House, I u to a Committee above stairs. The little information he had on the subject of forgeries on the Bank was as yet very billing indeed ; he trusted that when the subject cave before the Homage, that part of it would be fully elucidated. After a few words, the (7111NCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER postponed the Committee to next Mon day se'imight. CORN AVERAGES. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved fur Copies of any re cent Accounts received from any of his Majesty's Am bassadors at Foreign Courts, of the prices of Corn in those Countries. Sir .1. NEW moved that there he laid before the Bottle au account of all sums of money paid by the Commissioners of Rncise in Ireland, for se.-en years last past, for Stamps and l.aw proceedings.--Ordered. TITHES LEASING RILL. Sir GEORGE BILL begged the Hon. Baron et,llleni her fur the Queen's County, would postpone the second reading of the Tithes Leasing Bill, which stood fur this day. Sir H. PARNELL consented. Second reading postponed to Wednesday nest. PETITION OF CHAS. HILL. Alderman WOOD hoped the flight lion. the Chan celler of the Exchequer would excuse his callinghis at tention, and that of the Lords of the Treasury, to the case of Charles Hill, whose petition to the House he held in his liana. Ile had delayed presenting that pe tition in order to afford the lion. Members for Somer set an opportunity to ascertain if any thing contained in the petition was false. The petitioner stated, that lie was and hail been a prisoner in the gaol of Hates ter for 15 years ; that from the year 17.!*.i to 1801; pe titioner bail been collector of Assessed Taxes, at which date (1S116) lie was charged with a deficiency of 6171.; by Nile of property and other means he had made up that SUM, except 341. only, so that that un fortunate man had been confined for 15 years slur the petty suns of 3 11.—(Hear, hear.)—About four years ago he (Hill) had petitioned this House, immedi ately after which his boxes were broken open and the i elsidetits had never been restored to him. The pe tition complained of a damp cell and other sufferings and privations. His (Alderman W.'s)object in pusent ing the Petition was nut to complain of the Gaoler, but to entreat the sympathy of that House for the poor Petitioner aged 7-1 years, who had suffered such long im prim:mm:ln for so trifling a sum. whilst great defaulters to the anionnt of hundreds of thousands, were allowed to escape wills impunity. The Petitioner complained also of being locked up from five o'clock in the evening till seven o'clock next morning. .%-mongst others con fined in that prison, was a young Quaker lady—young ;unrest, for she was only '22 years of age. She was con fined for debt incurred by joining her brother in secs rity,and was, necessarily, attended by the turnkey, there being no female attendant in the prison. Mr. Henry Hunt was also confined there, and who, during the shrieralty of Sir Charles Dampfield had been treated with great kindness, hut he found the contrary was the case at present. However as he (Alderman Wood) in tended in a few days to call the attention of the House to the state of lichester Gaol, he wonhl not press that part of the sithject further at present. Mr. l'llPrifr knew nothing of the Petitioner, but from thelartit!nn irleich stated that the poor man had beds confined for IG years, fur a debt of 341., and the _ ~~ ten. . George __ indebted to 011911111111 it in a sem of 100,800 L, and yet he riles about is bal joyment of liberty. He did sat mention this Waal fi le persecution of Mr. Villiers,!•nt to express his hope o w lit would be proved there was not one law fee the p lot mg another for the rich.—(l tear.) The CHANCELLOR of the F:kCHEQree wa s acquainted with the circumstances of the. es*, hat 14. servedt d t r * o dd with i r y i tskel e v idents s collector.t the parish the l tw T whi c h r t i ii • S id t i ar a it i z iag i as at e rish that he bad been imprisoned, and the Trawl had no power to skew mercy to him. Mr. DICKINSON said, the impression ea hkag et i about the sum fur which petitioner was toothed that it was much more considerable than 34/. H e C al i heard frequently that the petitioner might have often liberated, had he consented to give up ea na property of which he was possessed. Wi t h retest 1. the reflection thrown out by the worthy A ltleesaa a against the gaoler of Ilehester , relative to H i nt, he was ready to meet him, and on the other p a n s a l io Two Magistrates visit the gaol, whose aolimi tice is to ask Hunt snot all otherprisoners, if tileyl it ; any complaint to make ? With respect to the Alderman's own mission of inspectibu, instead a r i a ; I into the gaol, and making out Lk report fres act/ 4 observation, he had taken it from a rioted hE.... (Hear, hear.) Sir 'l'. LETHBRIDGE did not rise to oppos e * e reception of the petition, but to express his e tea ri c ti n that the gaoler would he found worthy of praise rather than blame ; fur he would venture to assert, the eael of Ilehester was in as perfect a state as any in the Empire. Dr. LUSHINGTON had taken sr*ine pains to ism. dgate the allegations contained in the petitios, taxi mould assure the House of the truth of a great pama l of them. It was true that petitioner had been coshed from 1506, not for a balance of 341. only, bat lar k I much larger one, for he bail refused tn we a n ca . fain deeds in liquidation of his balance.—llear, must say, at the saute time, that four !eau petitioner bail consented to sign them. He (Dr. L) held in his hand a report, by which it appeared that 701. was the only deficiency at the present assent. He did not mean to extenuate, yet the petitioner har ing suffered sixteen years' itnpristmoseirt, lie (Dr. Lt hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Reese would agree he load suffered enough, and th a t 1. was not asking too Hindi in begging that the seat of jSI. remaining due would be remitted to theyetitioner. Ile implored the lenient consideration of his Majesty's*. 'eminent for a poor prisoner, 74 yeas of age. Ile bore testi' 11111 l y to the good character of tke rola et lie rester pal. Respecting the complaint of damp, it should be known, the floor (lithe prison was b e low tie level of the river. He repeated, there were Is touch's's taken to manage the prison well as ary tabor is f e Empire. The conduct of the gaoler might hart Ikea little harsh (what gaoler was otherwi..e,) vet lethal rendered essential service to the Magi.:trates in rebx* ing the prison. Sir ISAAC COFFIN bore testimony t the gad charicter of the gaoler. Sir FRANCIS OSTRIA WRY said slew aravlsodid were rendered inaudible by noise. :llderman WOOD, in explanation, said be had sal! stated the gaoler had not shown indulgence is the prisoners, and which lie was ready to rorr, eliestrer a proper r cession offere.l. Petitioner wan anatomy, and bad, fur a number of years, managed the rchedal * of his fellow prisoners ; bra , on the peti•inn, fietyent ago, lee had been preventen continuing to do so. Tile li o nourable Member had said , that he (Ablersin Wood) had not gone in .tile the prison, and yet had made a report of its state. That the Rorosrabk Gentleman should charge him with sneh remind sn most extraordinary. In fart, he hail b•en assoritri in the inquiry with two other 14.0441105, end thew had spent souse hours in the ineestigarine. aud4,W4 the book kept in the gaol.—(Bear.) IVa4 tare Ilene nourable Dentleman must hare been inisinforesel , ut lie would not have made such a staterner. Mr. BAILIN° recollected a pilgrim:tee gent fret' the city of London, to inquire into the state of th' Gaols of the kingdom, composed of two AlJereic Surveyor, and Toni' Clerk. They made their vii thin at llchester, and in vat city style, ordered s rso l dinner, which detained them so long, that thy laa not time to iuspect die prison.—(Gouil lasii7); 'I hey made their statement of that gaol from t book, describing accurately the situation of *omit° , windows, pump, &c. ; but, unfortunately, r' o<e 6:l' bad been changed two years before.—( Iroo.i louOl er L ) 11" This was the mode in which deputations feats city of London made their inspections.--(Hetri so laughter.) Mr. DICKINSON said, that since be eameierollt House, he heard from another dentienisn deputation bad not entered the prison Of 1k 110 :n5 (Hear, hear.) Mr. WILMOT wished to ask the Hon. Ahlonill was the Report made from printed hook. or fr", ll actual visitation ? teriga r i t Mr. BERNAL rose to order. He con was improper to ask questions * Veiny lloroo . w Member after such Member hat i M eli any 3 ert's "' (Hear.) • ullat;dXThiOstifriheanidlsaclaaninleleatrodtst!sttonthne-altrdifokitr,t;o l- i. 00 1 ' ? ' odre.ritnered an excellent dinner , sent f Mr. a asked him for his book ; or the ther n Mr. Alderman WOOD Ihtneraidsothseplolkoeusei skr: terms of the gaoler. lier him in explanation. After h e and two br" naniedn,s(lSLiriJtiorchinol:ewrritiinig,titmehesn a Memberurreyor of and T" 14 he . bad spent two hours inspect in g the gaol'. , be told had sent for Laoter. that thev id m one% a he their report from him ; was he to he to (Alderman Wood), haring asserted r. "orrery :"" t (Hear, heae.)—la.reply to the sneer all wo uld only am they had not dined tiler' at (Loud chewing.) fie ii.rL manbi Mr. t Ij unjustly ii N S attar °N k e thou. il l i r t * h.e tn l ) l.lrll4llcbe'All:'.. that most rule c ih o e ns H pl o t u n s o e us i ' v a o s ul a d g not ood Me of the rights remaining to the peol" I the right orpetitien. dpuischolluclobeli_laagoctisteate: .e t.. - I era"( prit. t . , against the 8 o r ' t ' an e propestti . ... iirquiples in (':r. tintnt) 1 • 1.1 111 .: T T AN. Pri*Aali ha P m " iuenee nlion hie date.. He Misted bin lion: raped c He traded wear bins would enthdraw Isis motion, upon an ender; I l i. Could tbo standing that the motion of the Hon. Oentlemas nod. as It 11611111 site would also be withdrawn. to the bar, or b ...... should be 4 that side of the Hot - - . ‘, .J;'; 1 lion. 'Gardenia's die. Petitioner was allwat.the miriaced *gait 7.4, If shit gbriag an unweeessary statement were true, he was worse tredmi than hi s h t . say whether itym oa tors. Dlr. George Villiers was indebted to Gomm, - . • PI 1 r - I