The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-06-09 00:00:00

•Paingwiwil well sot to follow it up in the course of the present, Session. lie would do better to withdraw it now , an& brio; it forward early in the ensuing Session. Str. DAVENPORT was opposed to the measure, and hoped the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would not pe, !severe. Sir R. 111106 N was opposed to the Bill, no objection whatever to its • being postponed till the next Session ; but he thought the Learned-Serjeasst bad been rather harshly treated, in being compelled, u be had been. to postpone his wearers from time to time. He hoped he would now bring it forward at that moment, or put it off altogether till the next &anion ; and be cared very little which coarse the Learned Serjeant might be induced to take. Mr. BENNET thought it did not matter a far thing to the public whether the Report of the miscel laneous Estimates was recevied that day, on Monday. Wednesday, or Friday in the next week, or on Mon day se'nnight. The Bill of the Learned Serjeant bed been postponed from day to day for many weeks, for reasons similar to those which were now opposed to it. On notice days, a discussion was carried ion till 12 o'clock at night. and then, when the Learned Ser jeant wished to bring it on, up jumped some Honour. able Gentleman, and declared, that at that late hour it was manifestly improper that a subject of such im pedance should he entered upon. Ou order days the House were occupied in a similar way till midnight, u hen up jumped the Hon. Member for Coventry, and declared that there should he no more debate. In this way, plucking out first the black and then the white hairs, none were left at last for the Learned Serjeant. He thought the Report might, without injury. to the public service, be deferred one day, and doing this would give one day to useful legislation. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY thought, as the lion. anti Learned Gentleman wished to obtain an open day for the Learned Scrjeant's Bill, be might have applied iu his behalf to those Gentleman who lAA given notice. He himself (Mr. Benne') might hare contributed his mite to make room for him—the Member for Coventry inirlit have given up his objec tilos to debating after midnight ; and the Member for Aberdeen might compress his observations within smaller compass than he was accustomed to do. Ile (the Marquess of Londonderry) did not know that the tlelay which bad occurred was attributable to him. The Report nmv to he brought up, it was of importance to the public to dispose of. Mr. A RERCROMBY, agreeing in principle with the Learned Serjeant, and thinking the subject one of the greatest magnitude and importance, that deserved to be fully lifted and enquired into, put it to the Learned Serjeant, from the prejudices now excited against it, as it would be almost impossible to pass the Bill in the present Session, whether it would not be wiser to postpone it to the next. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW briefly described the ob st at les which had been thrown in his way, and express ed himself anxious to regulate his conduct by the wishes of the House. Mr. J. P. BRANT recommended the postponement of the measure till the next Session of Parliam,nt. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW moved, that the Bill should be proceeded with on that day three months. 'lke CIIANCILLOR of the ECIHEQUEIit and Mr. DA ENPORT thanked the Learned Serjeant for the course be had taken. Mr. CALCRAFT also thanked the Learned Serjeant flr withdrawing the Bill for the present, as he had saved him the trouble of making a motion similar to that which had just been submitted to the House. If the measure should be renewed in a future session, if he (Mr. C.) retained his present prejudices, lie should oppose it, and should then feel happy if the Learned Illetitleman again took the same course that he had now been induced to take. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW said lie should certainly re vive the Bill in another Session. The motion (fur postponing the proceeding with the ]till) was then put and carried. FINANCE. On the question that the Report of the Committee of Wait and Means should be brought up, Lord A. HAMILTON directed the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to an Excise Bill, which had recently passed, and which was found to press ae• verely on sonic of the Scotch Brewers. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was surprised if the measure was so objectionable that it had not been complained of before, as it had received the Royal Assent before Easter. The Bill only went to give that protection to the revenue, which every tradesman would think necessary for his commercial concerns. Mr. MAXWELL said, he had forwarded a represen tation of the hardship complained of to the Board of Excise shortly after the passing of the Bill. Mr, J. P. GRANT objected to the Board of Excise brim• allowed to interpret in its own way an Act of Parliament. Mr. 3IABERLEY had now to bring before the Honse sonic strong eases, respecting which it would he fur the Chancellor of the Exchequer to offer some . explanatiou. In the last year he had come down to the House, and asked for the following supplies : For the Army.. .. • • • • .. 19,494,000 -- Ordnance .. . .. 1.404,000 Miscellaneous Services 4,100.000 Now t lie expense incurred under the last head, for which the Chance/I°r of the Exchequer bad demanded 2,100,000!. had amounted to 2,462.1281., giv ing an excess on the miscellaneous Estimates to the amount of 362,1281. The expense of the Ordnance were different in amount from the sup ply, and there had been variations under the other heads, so that the result was, the total expense exceeded by 378,4171. what bad been called for by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when be brought for ward his Budget in 1820. Other additions had been made which brought the total to 782,0811. He wished to call the attention of the House to this circumstance, to prevent a recnrrence of such a disparity between the estimates and the expenditure, and with a view to ef fect this. he hoped in future that all the supplies would be voted before the Chancellor of the Exche -vier breaght forward the Budget. He complained SW the Chancellor of the Exchequer had this year estimated the taxes at 500,0001. more than be could aspect them to produce. 'the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER be lieved the Hon. Gentleman would 6nd that scarcely any Bedget bad ever been produced that was not liable to observations of the same kind. One cause of the umwm..w^.....miii.inw ...1=••,.. laid tax, barrheen Honourable Gentleman entered irtio . . varions explana tions, which could not be distinctly heard in the gal lery, and vindicated the Estimates which he had brought down. Mr. MABERLY win disposed to overlook the cir cumstance of small sums not tallying ; but a dis parity like that which be had noticed, seemed .00 great to be overlooked. Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought the arrears of ha. lances ought always to be brought uuder the view of the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex plained. The Report was thee brought up. Mr. J. P. GRANT thought it strange that the disembodied 31ilitia should have been provided for in a new way, without one word having been said on the subject by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They were constantly amused by the Right Hon. Gentleman with statements of debt paid off, but he had satisfied himself' that so far from having paid off any debt, it had in point of fact been actually increased since the peace. Since that time a small reduction had been made in our funded debt, and apparently a much larger reduction of our un funded debt had taken place, the latter amounting to 13,752,0001. But it was to be remembered, that at the tom ' mencement of 1416, the country had in band a surplus of 5,663,000/. remaining of the sums voted for 1815, in consequence of the sudden termination of the war by the battle of Waterloo. To this a considerable sum was to be added for Unclaimed Dividends appropriated to the public service, making a total of 6,105,071/. Taking this into consideration, and various other circumstances which he thought ought to be connected, it appeared to him that there was in reality an increase of debt since the peace, amounti ng to 7,135,251/. It was beside:, to be re , membered that the Right lion. Gentleman hail proposed to continue the War Excise Duties for six years, to wind up the expenses of the war ; awl on those ditties not less ' than 12,000,00 W. had been received, while the Sinking Fund, he thought the whole of it, but the Chancellor of • the Exchequer only said 13,000,000/. bad been mon- I gaged or given up for ever. If the affairsof the nation went on in the same way fur the next five years, be thought it would require all the firmness and all the au thority of the Right Hon. Gentleman to congratulate the House on the situation of the country. He complained of the manner in which the Sinking Fund was managed. The policy was incomprehensible which led the Right Honourable Gentleman to keep up a nominal Sinking Fund charged on the Consolidated Fund, from which be annually borrowed 12 or 13,000,000/. while he bor rowed at the same time by Exchequer Bills 9,000,000/. to make good the deficiency in the Consolidated Fund. This could have no effect but to deceive—and there were not many who could now Le deceived. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if the House had now for the first time heard the asser tions, that no debt had been paid off, and that the coun try was verging on its ruin; he should have thought it necessary to state his view of the subject, and to sliew the fallacy of the arguments of the Ho nourable Gentleman. But the subject bad been so frequently discussed, that it was only necessary for him to remind the Rouse of the debates which hail already taken place. The lion. Gentleman had begun by saving as a part of the footled debt and a large portion 4 d l the unfunded debt had been paid off since the peace, and lie had then proceeded to sliew that no debt had bees paid offal all. lir might to have stated that if extraordinary resources had been placed at the disposal of Ministers, extraordinary charges were lobe met by those resources. The various charges growing out of a war so expensive which were to be defrayed, would be found to amount to little less that the sums which had remained at the command of Government at the termination of the war. He would refer the Ilan. Gentleman and the House to the. Reports of the Finance Committee. They would skew what debt had already been incurred, and how much had been paid off. Mr. 31 .1 L:ERLEY took a view of thee Financial si tuation of the country in 12+15, and compared it with that in which, it stood at present. Bret for the new taxes imposed to the amount of 3,200,0001. our situation would have been much the same as it was then with re spect to the Nat' al Debt. Ile thought the ralculations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer erroneous, and thought we were more likely to have a Sinking Fund of 3,000,000/. next year, than one of 4,090,0001. which the Right lion..tlentleman was of opinion might be ex pected. To relieve the country effectually, the Esti mates for the Army, the Navy, the Ordnance, and the Miscellaneous Services must be reduced by two or three millions. 'The Report was then read. On the Resolution being put for a Lottery, Mr. 111'ME said, he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would devise SOllle means of doing without a Lottery. It was despicable to observe the Minister countenancing such a system while our Statute Book was loaded with enactments against every other spe cies of gambling. The Het:citation was then agreed to. The other Resolutions were agreed to without any remark. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUEK, it was ordered, that the House, at its rising. should adjourn to Wednesday next. ALLOWANCE TO THE DUKE OF CLARENCE. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY me to call the attention of the Douse to a vote of Supply passed by the House in the year 1818. At that time several younger branches of the Royal Family were about to enter the mar ird state, and Parliament had thought proper to make an additional provision for their increased expenditure, in order that the dig nity of the country might We properly supported in the Members of the Royal Family. (It n-as here sug gested to the Noble Marquess hy Mr. Huskisson, that he was not exactly regular, as be should first move, that the House should go into a Committee.) He begged to apologize to the House, he was reminded by his Honourable Friend that his observations should be made in a Committee, he therefore should at present confine himself to moving that the Speaker should leave the Chair. Mr. MONCK said he saw nothing to justify the House going into a Committee. With respect. to the circumstances of :he country the Chancellor of the Exchequer a few nights since, bad misted the cl of •the Ameuican Loyalists on the ground of our li mited means. If our circumstances then were such that we could not afford to do justice we ought not to' do an act of mere generosity. Considering too the present state of the currency, be (Mr. M.) thought the application unreasonable and inauspicious. The present allowance of the Duke of Clarence bad been granted in the Adtuinistration of Mr. Fox, upon an increased scale, on the ground of the depreciated state of the currency, and the consequent bigh - price of provisions. That state had now been very map rially altered; the currency bad become restored, and sinus age, and that the infrinkties of exalted indivi duals were viewed with a microscopic eye. The pro minent part taken by his Royal Highness on a late in quiry Into the conduct of the Queen would, there was too much reason to fear, be connected (erroneously, no doubt), with the present application. He should therefore oppose the Speaker's leaving the Chair. The-question was then put, and agreed to without a division. The House being in a Commute c, The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said he felt it unnecessary to answer the observations of the Hon. Member who had spoken last, as the sense of the House bad been so decidedly sbewn upon the subject. The remark of the Honourable Member was per fectly correct, that the income of his Royal High ness bad been increased during the Grenville Admi nistration ; but the settlement then made was an unmarried settlement. When he (Lord L.) had pro posed the votes' for the increased incomes of the Illus trious Personages in question, the House reduced the general scale of expense, though there was but one feeling upon the principle. The vote then agreed to for the Duke of Clarence, Isis Royal Highness had respectfully declined, because he thought he could not receive it without involving himself in difficulties, and he therefore proposed to go abroad where he might live iu retirement. Circumstances however had in duced his Royal Highness to alter this determina tion, and he returned to this country with his illus trious Consort. Had Providence preserved the life of the illustrious Princess, the offspring of this marriage, he (Lord L.) should certainly have felt it his duty to ask the House to revise their former decision, as his Royal Highness would necessarily have been put to increased expenses in providing for the care and edu cation of the Princess. At present the question was, merely that his Royal nighties's should be put in the same situation in which he would be had the Bill passed with the provision of 60001. a year, which had been voted by the (louse and declined by his Royal High ness. lie (Lord L) was sure that the House would not wish his Royal highness to sutler from the decision he had taken on the Ginner occa,ion; and he trusted there was but one feeling in the House upon the ques tion of supporting the dignity of the Royal Family. lie proposed that the vote should take effect with re ference to the original period, and when it was recol lected that his Royal Highness stood next in rank to the Duke of York, the Heir presumptive to the Throne, be trusted this would not meet any objection. Having explained he was convinced to the satisfaction of the House, (hear, hear, from the Opposition Benches), the question he was about to bring before them, he had only to observe that he trusted no unfavourable argu ment would be drawn from any considerations of a per sonal nature. The Illustrious Duke and his Consort were, in private life, an example of domestic purity, and their conduct and happiness in this respect could not but be highly satisfactory to the nation. As the vote he should propose was merely an act of justice, he should now confine himself to moving. a Resolution —" That it is the opinion of this Committee that his Majesty be enabled to grant nut of the Consolidated Fund a suns not exceeding 60001. per annum, in or der to make a suitable provision for his Royal High ness the Duke of Clarence, such suns to be calculated from the sth of April 1818." Mr. II I'ME said, he trusted the Noble Marquess would divide his motion into two branches. It had pleased the Duke of Clarence to refuse the original grant of the House. That grant the House might possibly he still disposed to make him ; but certainly the question as to arrears stood upon very different grounds. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY thought this an objectionable mode, as it would destroy the spirit of the Resolution. Mr. ill . .11 E proceeded. On a farmer occasion he had asked the Noble Marquess a question relative to the property of his late Majesty, and hail not receiv ed any satisfactory answer, although such an answer might have a considerable influence upon the present question. Ile (Mr. H.) win willing to put his Royal Highness upon the same footing with the other younger branches of the it iyal Family, but be saw no reason for any preference. The death of his late Majesty made a material alteration on this subject, inasmuch as by the new Riff passed at the commencement of his present Majesty's reign, a distinct sum of 2,500/. per annum had been set a part for the Dake of Clarence. The difference, therefore, between that sum and 6,000/. would put his Royal Highness on the Sallll footing with his younger brothers, and lie (Mr. Hume) should certainly move a reduction of this 2,500/. from the Vote. The Noble Marqess thought the payment of , arrears a principle of justice, but he had not proposed the payment of arrears of the 15,0001. a-year which had been voluntarily given up by her present Majesty. Indeed, the conduct of Ministers with respect to the other branches of the Royal Family, was worthy of strong remark; for not a single shilling had been provided for the infant child of the late Duke of Kent, and she was now supported by an individual. 119th respect to the public conduct of his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence, be (Mr. Hume) was sorry to say it had not inspired that respect which it was so desirable should be sbewn to every Member of the Royal Fa mily.—(Bear, hear : from the Marquess of Londun. derry)—He would repeat the expression, and be should be glad to hear ally man stand up in his place and say that the conduct pursued by his Royal High ness while sitting in judgment upon Isis Queen and near relation had been proper. The Duke of Sussex, on the other hand, had, with a praise worthy delicacy, abstained from taking any part in the proceeding. He repeated his opinion merely in consequence of the cheers of the Noble Marquess. He wished the Royal Family to receive every becoming respect; hut he also wished them to deserve it. Upon the amended motion be wasaboet to make, he pledged himself to take the sense of the House if any two friends would support him, and, if the vote should be carried fur the arrears, he would oppose the Bill in every stage. The money refused by his Royal Highness lead been refused apparently with disdain, but that given up by the present Queen bad been given sumo pareds:nntreswaspecatoinigoppor up from liberal feeling. As the question of the arrears t w u as nit p y res fo: ed ac u q7ir p in t g he the czcz ag of in t e la a te t ,will. Ile w will r ia lh: e loesti m j e o o . was clear that the property beam public, property • I ' • . proper the Heusi Clarence derived l ei the prop erty it was by viii were the ease, the share of the Duke of Clarence would be 200,000/. Th e Hon. Hember concluded by moving a reduction of th e _ vote to 3,560/. and that the words giving it a retrospe r . tire operation, should he left out. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, lieolia4 w. suede.' himself that the House on the present °cuisine' would be unanimous; and he certainly had ant a. ;meted that that unanimity would be disturbed by y e , kind observations or invtdions comparisons ; teropi. eons which never turned to the advantage of th e INF vidual making them or that of the person for w h ets that individual made himself the champion. The toe thousand five hundred pounds alleded to by the Il ea Member bad been granted to the Duke oft:Unmet ~g he was very young, and had been continued ever sue*. The name of the Duke of Kent had been mentioned, he; he enjoyed a professional income of MO/. a- year No the Governorship of llibraltar. He repeated that thi s spirit of championship for one branch of the family's, never attended with any advantages. Another beam. lent observation of the Hon. Member referred to her respect llonyreal; Majesty ; but that Illustrious Personage had g i ns the sum in 'question because she stated th at upon , . ‘‘ n ‘l es asou s lt t do ba nim t ee t ee h tt e tti p lei r a ese ns n lica t applicat ion ulaei scale of her to elr u i an.l it was nej e . upos High ness other observation of the Hon. Member respe c ti eg hi s l ate Majesty's property he should say a very few wee d s. Hi s Majesty had left a paper which the Law Audieritieshad pronounced not to be a Will. The idle tale them a million would be answered by stating the tact that the value of his late Majesty's person! property dW not exceed 80,0001. It was the 'ideation of his IA Majesty that the present King should derive the chief personal benefit, hut as the will was a nullity, the property in question belonged to his present Majesty only during his life, as attached to the Crown. I'M alone was a sufficient answer to the malicious obser vations which had gone abroad respecting his late Majesty's supposed arcutnulation : and skarn tious of a similar nature h►d not been wasting to asperse the memory of her late Majesty, whose pro- perty was in fact scarrely sufficient to discharge ber debts, and those charities which had so eminently distinguished her illustrious fe.—(llear,hear.) lie trusted that no second Englislitnaa small be found to tolerate what was asked of the Haase, sal he was confident that the House would not condensed to sanction the objer:ion taken to the present vote. A MEMBER, whose name we could not hear, sat ported the vote, and with reference to the midget el the Duke of Clarence observed, that lie was a aim supporterof the Charity whirls was distinguishe4 kr assisting the countrymen of the lion. Member k Aberdeen. Mr. HUME said, that from the tone of the Node Lord and that of the last Speaker, it would naturally be supposed he (Mr. li.) had attacked the private clt• ratter of the Duke of Clarence. He (Mr. IL) denied that he had done so. He had stated, and he wadi repeat, that there was nothing in the Duke's public conduct justified his being preferred to soy of his younger brothers. Ile might be in a small minority, but he should persist in his A tuendment. Mr. HUSKISSON said, be wished merely to state the fact, that the 2,500/. alluded to as granted to h►s Royal Highness, had come under the notice of the House upon every occasion of the discussion of his in come. The House knew the circumstance, and considered it in the nature of an equivalent for the want of those professional emoluments which were in generates. joyed by the other younger branches. Mr. WILLIAMS said, he understood the Noble Marquess to say, that the Duke of Clarence was the only Member of the Royal Family who did not enjoy professional en►olu►nent, The Duke of Susses newer received a shilling of the public money beyond kit stipulated income. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY shortly es. plai tied. Mr. W. SMITH said, the Noble Marquees bad es• pressed his hope that no English voice tvonld be focal to support the Amendment of the Honourable Wider for Aberdeen. His (Mr. Smith's) would be that ear, fur he thought not a shilling of the arrears (mitts he allowed. The real property of his late Majesty might to have been brought under the notice of Parliamest. If it was 2 or 301,090/. a-year— Mr. HUSKISSON here spoke across the table. To save the time of the Hon. Member and the House,lte begged to say that the real property of his late Majesty had been placed under the controul of the departatest of Wools and Forests; that it was available for public purposes, hot that, if sold, it in all probability would nut realize 20,000/. Mr. W. SMITH said the explanation of the Ike. Member was satisfactory to him, and no dooht to tke House. lie thought the arrears of his Royal Highness allowance stood upon distinct grounds, and he therefore should oppose them. Mr. BBRIHT said, that the misunderstanding 3 . 1 the value of his late Majesty's property, had pined ground because the Noble Marquess had n o cop descended to acquaint the public with the fa". 146 (Mr. B.) thought the House ought not to Walled os make good the arrears, and he should oppose that part of the vote. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY explained. The amount of the late King's personal property he had In the last Session stated to be only bO,OOO/. and with re spect to the real property, it was not many days since Ministers had obtained the opinion of the Law Office s ~ upon the paper purporting to he his late ;Majesty's Mr. TIERNEY acknOwletlgell that he WAS thermos of the circumstances connected with the grant offered* his Royal Highness three years ago being r ecorded 01 . 1 the Journals. He did so, not out of kindn ess to to Royal Highness, but in justice to Parliament, and t)!.11 nothing should appear on the record reflecting °Oka character of his Royal Highnest.—(l!cat.} -04e thought his Royal Highness had been ill-aaristd as rejecting the prevision made for him by Far: ament l for it was the grant of Parliament, nut far him bp tamper about, hut to accept, as an offer coming frills a quarter which has always been extremely liberal I. his Royal Highness. Some one had improperly 0 the ear of his Royal Highness, and bad indoced his angrily to reject what was offered him. Dm it 1%3% 10 be borne in mind that he was not then m asieil, at. though it was in contemplation. He di,' a fterwards proceed the full length of that marrriage, try highly honourable to the parties, becau4. it aks Ike first one that bad taken place nut connected a itir P cautery advantage. Front that day to this he teased he had been in daily exrctation of gyring I 1 corns down to the flow, and was only surpr:.e.l it kid not found its way there *setter. He was sati.!;..tl that no considerablt portion of the public would loc 11 °' posed to object to it. A small shadow of an arP'' .... . • • • ~ • - - TIIE SAT ~MANN; . - .._ . _ _ - . . . d if twill had been made it felenc‘remarked wonkilse hound inure al i eta . i .m • 11l iliof parrisitOs had-Callen. He (Hr. M )theik- an . was prop benefit from it. Report stated that ._ :. • with raped a the ensile Sr the fliserolsodietAniffile- ; fore , ler the present a re Ms • cittla. not but consi ry Rhoadd know whether the Duke of Clarenc amounted to a million In value, and that it That expense, which had heretofore Imp met by the Fharn moment for the subject in question. Neither laid tux, bagbeelitirded to the sopplies. Tire Right ihould it be forgotten that we lived In a very cease -divided among the soh!, and if this were . _. . ... _ ,_&......:.:-. .r ...-16...1 lutist. c--- -e .t.- n..t.- ..1 mg I.I L_ 0.1 MI 1 V ■ ~i P h I x F s• It C t