The Statesman. — London, England, 1823-02-20 00:00:00

of the late A, t tor the reduction of the duty on Salt. — He was glad to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, because the observations he wished to make were intended to call the attention of the Right hon. gentleman to the subject matter of the petition:" The petitioners set forth, that certain advantages, which were allowed them for fifteen years, were taken twxy by the Salt Doty Repeal Bill. In ISO 7 was made an urraugemeut, by which an allowance of one shilling io every hundred pounds weight of salt provia;oa.sex -ported from Ireland, was vented to the !lash Trade by way of drawback. The allowance had ceased when the last Act came into operation. Before that law s a duty 'ot 13s was imposed on every bushel of Salt in Beg \ • "lintd. The duty was Gs. in Scotland, and 2s. per bushel Ireland. By the measure introduced by the late cat'•Chaneellor r f the Excliequi tr, the former was reduced thirteen shillings, the second four, and the duty in Ire land remained just as it was before. But that•was not t 711e'tonipleint of the petitioners, but that in equalising 'the Salt Duty, the allowance formerly granted as a draw. • 'back, was entirely done away by the late Act ; and they • • :were consequently much injured in tit-. provision trade • - 4f Ireland, it being deprived of those advantages which - • *they enjoyed for the last fifteen years. That was a great • discouragement to the curing of provisions in Ireland for export—a trade in which several thonsand persons • were employed. The prayer of the petition was to put • tie exporters of salt pr..% tsion on the saute footing on ; which they stood for the List fifteen years, ep to the pass . lug of the late Act. He did not believe the late Chan ' eellur, in preparing the Act for redua ing the Salt Duty, • lad at all intended that it should have the effect of doing away with those draw backs that were before allowed. • SirJOHN NEWPORT spoke in an inaudible tone, but was understood to sup: ort the petition, and afterwards to • say that he held in his hand, for presentation, a • •lar rnr which came from the Chamber of Commerse in Wa• e r ford. •The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he slat anxious to give his most serious consideration to the Subject to which' the petition referred. He was well aware that the reduction of the duty on salt must have !yeti in the first instance prejudicial to the interests.of Iraland. He was desirous of placing the present matter as it stood prior to the late Act, but there was one diffi culty which he did not ate how he was to get over. That ditCcolty consisted in this, that the drawbacks which Ire land enjoyed for 15 years, had not been given to Eng ' land, and the two countries were now so far on an equality. The petition was then read and ordered to be printed. 1 • Sir J. NEWPORT presented -a similar petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Waterford.—Ordered to be printed. POSTAGE ON LETTERS. Mr. HUTCHINSON presented another petition from the merchants and ci.izens of Cork complaining of the high charge of postage which they were obliged to pay nn lttrrs between England and Ireland. The petition set firth that the rate of ditty was more than douhlethat paid an litters in any part of Eneland.—When 14d. was for an Enclish letter in Ireland, only 6d. was paid for a later going the Fatill• distance in h:ngland. The Hon. Xlember Olen wrist into come calculations to prose the in qualdy of the dnly,and stated that the Con rnirtt e on tire ad t ar's retwasuierided a reduc tion. Mr. F. LEWIS .s id he did not agree with the state /m.11,s • f the peti inm•rs. In his opinion the Post Olfice Revenue differed in the ratane of its r 'lterations from the Revenue arising horn the ditty on spirits.&c. The later 'went entirely as a profit to the Revenue, wh much of the former went In the expense of conveying and deivering the letters. The charge of postage should I c rased io propurtioo to the expense attending the letters. - Sir-J. NEWPORT said that whether the money paid far the carriage of letters went in defraying the expense a'f t!'e establishment of the Po.t Office, or was carried into the treasury, that made no difference whatsoever to the person who paid the postage. The person in Ireland err-erring a letter froni England, paid double the sum which a person in England paid fur a letter that was carried the same distance, but within England. lie was of opinion that the nho!e of the Post Office Revenue, in Ireland, particularly, was on a wrong principle.— The 'Government enjoyed a monopoly of the conveyance of letters, and it was no wonder that the expense of the Pest ()thee establishment in Ireland was higher than tae mars% Jr. tiOULBURN said he would make but one ob• arrvation, and that was that a person in Ireland receiv ing a letter Irons England should be at a higher ex pense than if that letter went the same distance by land carriage. That an increase would be in proportion to the expense the same person would be at an case he was to send by a private conveyance. For instance, a per son sending to York would have l-ss expense than if he were to send an equal distance beyond sea. That he conceived to be an answer to the allegation in the peti tie°, unless it were strewn that a higher rate of post. sire was paid for the conveyance of letters within Ire land than for letters carried an equal distance in Eng land. The Petition was then read, and ordered to be printed. CORONERS-IRELAND. Mr. S. RICE p n ted a petition from the Freehold er. of the County of Tipperary, complaining of the in prim* operation of the late law relating to Coroners in Ireland. Ordered to be printed. •OUTIIWARK PETITION. Mr. C. CALVERT presented a Petition from the in baiiirants and householders of the Borough of South wark, complaining of various grievances, among which they enumerated • xcepsive taxation, an overpaid Ali nistry, and exborhitaut pensions to persons whose services did not merit them. The petitioners prayed that the law authorising Government to grant such pensions might be repealed. They added a prayer for the reps al of the assessed taxes, and for a reform in the representation of the people in Parliament. Sir ROBERT WILSON supported the petition, which be contended, was entitled to great respect. The petition being read, Mr. !ALV ERT said, he was instructed by his coosti turn.' not to move in the usual way that the petition lie on the table, for that was consigning it, as they thought, to neglect. Their desire was, that he should move that it he referred to a Committee of the whole house. As, knwever, a Noble Lord (John Hassell) gave notice of a motion for Reform, he (Mr. Calvert) would postpone referring the present • petition to a Committer, until that question was before the House. In the mean flout he would move that it Be on the table, and be printed. . Ordered to be printed. INSOLTIINT DICIITORe ACT Mr. HEATHCO IrE preserved a petition from ti• m-rehants and traders of the Null of Boston, against IPr I nsolvent Detitori' Art. 'I tie lion. Member stated from the petition, that the loss sustained by the inset toency of persons discharged under that Act, exceeded eleven millions of money. Lord A LTHORPE woe pnderstood to say, he doubted the rortectness of that statement in the petition, thoo l ai it was said to be made from reternslaid before the house. Those returns were made is 1919.. and there was room for similar returns at present. It would be better to wilt till those returns were made. The Peution was then read, and ordered to be printed. L 1 , 1 FOLKESTONE gave notice of a Petition (the ~.:_. • THE STATEV.AN title we could not hearlwbich he sueante c t i t - ‘ - reisct sw Friday next, awl he would more for dee oit it one future day. Lard A. HAMILTON *toyed for Mar no of dm 'Dint; Councils in the different Boronghs 'of Scotland, specify ing the office of each person and whether resident's/to!, ft.—Ordered. _ POSI•NASTRR GENERAL. • Lord NORMANItY said he wiihed to put a question to the Right Hon. Becretary (Mr. Peel.) It was in the recollection of the house than an address to his Majesty was carried last Session in that how to reduce one of the two Postmasters-General. He was desirous of know ing what was done In consrgnence of that Address. The house expected the immediate abolition of the office. He would not then make any observation on the expression put by Ministers' into the King's month, in his Majesty's answer to that Address regarding the office. Mr. Secretary PEEL said he was prepared to give a fair and candid answer to the question. The Noble Lord said he understood no change was made in conse quence of the Address. But a change was nude so far, that since the Address no salary was.given, and the sa lary was the ground of the Noble Lord's tuotion for the reduction. e c x orle te c n t e d., 6l ( 14 " e a ls t al .) "i kr ir o h m th al e l re th w e as in n fo o rn i i ieu atio t n ti n me itio r ffi ld w i a n s Coutinissivners were inclined to the (minions that the apfninlinent was not essential in the constitution of •h e office, especially if ths ssrvices of the Master-General were not withdrawn. They also rroostmesaleal, that the Roar dof Ordnance should, like the other Boards in the sertics, be Composed of one (:eneraband four other Com missioners; and that the.office of Isient.-tiesiessishoett be cominned as long as it seas convenient to retain him ; or if it was necessary to place loins at the head of the floarth-the Master-floneral to have the same du ies as hi therto. The Committee also recommended, that two of the Board might be entitled to seats in the House of Com mons, for the purpose of answering all needful inquiries; and the other two.ohould be siways reserved foe the imam action of official business :dons. The Isets were, boa eveg, a' present, quite opposed to this recommendation. They had lately 4 junior Members of the Board in t!sat house, and lie saw 3at that moment before him.—This was, at lowa, two to one againq the suggestion of Lord Moira. Of these three the treasurer aas one, but lie vas aware that the Treasurer was no part of the Board ; it was a question with him whether he should have a seat there at all. :he complaint which be had to urfr, was, that none of the recommendations of the Report were attended to. He would state what the strongest reroni mendations consisted in. lie would first ask, would the house sanction in time of peace an establishment of live officers for the Ordnance, when it had previously circles red that four Commissioner* were sufficient to conduct the business of the Btitish navy during the war. Such a demand was inconsivent to the recommendation of eco nomy from the Croon, the profession of retrenchin nt by the Government, or the opinion of the Board which he had recited. In his mind his Majesty's Mi nisters had GINO:if neglected their du's/ to the country. He would be glad to hear from them why things in the Ordnance Department were not to be changed, and if the Navy was to be considered unworthy of a I-ts establish ment than the Ordnance? Ile should he toll, per haps, that there were several attendant charges mining from the Barrrark Department. The an swer to that was, the Barr teli formerly belonged to the Ordnance Office, and very properly gone back sof late. There was hut a trivial duty, and both together slid not form an establishment laborious or important in com parison with the Navy. Ile would then deliberately put to the house, if it had last year reduced two Lords of the Admiralty, eonld it refuse to admit that five officers were too many for the business of an inferior department? The salaries formed an important consideration with re gard to expense. The amount of those attached to the Ordnance formerly was 3,5,70. a-year ; at present they mere extended to 6.5501.; while the whole salaries of the Naval Commissioner slid not exceed 4,0001. a-year. It would be inconsistent to pay greater sum for the subordinate duty, even if the Lieutenant-Gener l's sa lary of 1,5901. a-year was abolished, the estimate would atilt be larger than the other. He agreed with the Fi nance Committee, as well as with the Commissioner of Mi litary Inquiry, that the servants of the Board should not he considered in the same rank as he servants of the Secre taries of State. It was, in point of fact, an insult to a great nation to find an establishment of so inferior a department upholding such inordinate pretensions.—(Hear.) There was snmetliinx in the time of filling up the appoint ment in his mind partieul irly to be disposed of. It was eivsn away a ithin twent)-four hours of the meeting of that house—(hear, hear)—in opposition to the declara tions from the throne, and the professlons of the as to retrenchment. He was willing that the house should he ready at all times to support the iligM•y of the Crown; hut it was due to themselves only so f.r as was absolutely necessary.—(Hear, hear.) lie . hal simian by a comparison of duties and the number of individuals in two der arttnents that he had estishlishel a t lai) fora reduction in the le ser. He therefore hoped that the house %mild support him, as the Ordnance was produc tive of more expellee and more lavish profusion than any other department, with the exception of Ir. tend.— (Hear, and a laugh.) No person could be aware (con tinued the Hon. (iewleman) of the profusion of the office, without reading over the Report of the Commis sioners of Military Inquiry, judging from it, and making the comparison between the exp-mlittire in 1796 and that of the present duv. The house for the business of the office cost 15,000 . 1. in bull ling, and. 1,200/. a-year besides. The office of Secretary to the Master-General stood the country in 1,900/. a-year, including his own sa lary of 1,5001. a-year, and a pension to Colonel Chapman of 4001. a-year, who retinal to make way for him.— But the Secretary's situation was one extravagantly re munerated ; not that he intended to undervalue the very able services of Mr. Crewe, but his salary was, he thought, disproportioned to his services, and the expense of 12.001. a year for the house of a Gentleman who was occasionally visiting Madrid was @omen hat extravagant. Another abuse to which the Military Commission hail directed their attention was the office of second Secre tary, an office of which even Ministers became ashamed and reduced it ; but the public saved nothing by the re duction ; for the second Secretary received only a sal try of 3001. a year, and two clerks succeeded him with sala ries of 1501. each yearly. Thus it would be seen that every situation in that department, f.om the Clerk upon his limited salary of 601. a year up to the Lieutenant Ge neral, required strict and constant and unremitting ob servation. He had shewn that in 1796 the expenreof this department amounted only to 180001. and according to the returns last year it amounted to not less than 630001. though we were at war in 1796, and though we were last year in the enjoyment of a . six years peace. The Commissioners further advised that the business in Pall Mall and at the 'lower should be transacted under one roof, and thus considerable expense noted be saved to the country. They recommended one establishment fur sores at Woolwich, and suggestel that small fire arms alone should be deposited in the Tower. The Honour able Member concluded by retuarking, that he had en tertained hopes that this question would have been set at rest by the adoption of the suggestion of the Military Commission, and that he should not have felt the neces sity whico pr-sseil nyon him of bringing this question be fore the consideration of the house. The Honourable Member moved, that as th- Military Commission had, in their thirteenth Repair', declared that the appointment of Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance was not necessary in time of peace, was not essential to the constitution of the Board of Ordnance except in time of war, this house is of opinion that the recent appointment to that situa tion is at variance with those principles of economy re commended from the Throne—that It was made without due consideration of the distresses of the country, since it was not absolutely necessary to the public service. On the question being put from the Chair, Mr. itoitEra WARD rose to oppose the motion. From the motion the lion. Gentleman had read, he did not hesitate to declare that he was not correct ; but the contrary to what he had stated was correct.—(Lond 'Cheers.) Mr. HUME interrttpte.l-1 hope I may be allowed to pat a question—(Cries of Order ! and Go on! to Mr. Ward.) Mr. WARD—If the Hon. Member persists in the motion he hag read-(Yes, yes! from olr. Hume), I wish to understand what them %don is —(Cries of Read, read !) The Clerk then read the motion. Mr. WARD resumed. He was always ready to admit, that when the lion. Member understood a question, be was not all inclined to misrepresent it to the House ; but t h e misfortune was—that a Gentleman, whose research was unexampled. and who laboured so diligently in what be made so doubt be, Mt, Hume, considered the public A ' I 21 4+itp,shthilki so frequently make stitc,is singular and sus picions mis-statements; however, he mould not rest the question upon the mere privileged errors of the Honnn:- able Member; but be would divide his argument into three different parts, fut the mote successful cep:mute el the unhappy misconceptions of the lion. Member for Aberde•-n. In the first place he should sh•w that h e ', ad init-s'atrd the Reports in the twit Ogee he should show that the Commissiuners had misrepresented the evidence upon which they had formed that opinion, and in the last pies* he should show. supposing the Report to be c0rr....-, still there was such an alterttirn in the Board as to make it impossible to attend to their suggestion*. Ard in the first instance he had to complain of the manner in which the Hon. Member found it convenient to garble that R. port. He had stated it as the unqualified epinion of tie Commissioners, that the appointment to which he obje ct : ed was unnecessary, and he quoted just as much of the Report as SPI veil to give a colour tJ that op Mon ; but he forgot to add, whit in candour he should not have sup: pressed, that they stated " especially if the Master tie : ueral be rot withdrswn from immediate attendance"— ' (Hear!)—and further, that if this preliminary condition were fulfilled, they had nothing to offer respecting the si ' tuation of Lieutenant Gencral— (dear '.)—Such was'the candour of the Hunnurehle bietither, and curb were rue suppressions to which his ingenuity had resorted. The Commissioners cid not speak at all p si ively, but only said it occurred to them that the udire of Lieutenant ' General of the Ordnance might be abolished, in the event of certain things taking place—which never did take place. With respect to his second position, he contended that the Commissioners of Military' Inquiry did not rightly understand the evidence on wilth they foundrd their Report. They there stated, as the opinion' of Loa's Ali:tire and Chatham, that the Lieutenant-li.neralship of the Ordnance might be abolished ; but the evidence of these two noblein• n al ogt tin r denied the fact. In the absence of the Master-General, caused by Hitless or o her ' circumstances, the presence of the Lieu:snot-H.Bml ' was of great utility. The Connuissiot ecs only considered the Lieut. nant-General as at the Ordnance Hoard, but he ' might have had, for aught that appeared before the Com ' missioners, avast deal of other business, and to have to ' discharge many very important duties The linnonr &Mr Member proceeded to read the tletalt.(l op: Mons a. giv• a in evidence, particularly of Lord Chatham, and observe.i tl•at he faithfully read the whole, not umi tiay , . part , r as had been don? by the Honour able NI raiber opposite. Lord Cliche n said that the Lieutenant lira.r,,l ices t!,e link between the Civil and Military part of the Or.inanett. The. Howrurahle Member opposite imputed criminali..y to the Noble Lord, without any proof t h at he deserved it and nhy ? Because the Noble Lend bring surpois d by some questions when under examination ott crab —• an oath—(bear,)—required. as he ought, time ho consider before he committed hints, If by wt toasty answer. This conduct was turned against Lord Challain. and is was broadly insinuated that he only wanted time in outer to man ege the affair. Lord Chatham night have maw: enemies here; the Hon. Member opposite might be or .e of them; hut Lord Chatham never sa'd, nor did any thing which could warrant the iruputatiens throne out night against him. He acted as a clown's, proper, pre• dent man, and he (Mr. W.) coutd not help roproacloim; the Hon. Member (Mt. Hum -) for molting use of such an unfow d d imputaion. Lwokinz ;lien at the evidence of Lord Chatham, he was at a toes to conceive on what grounds there could be any doubt of the utility of the Lieut.-General of the Ordnance. The conduct of Lord Chatham was designated as one of guilty management, us-rely because, on a subject of some difficul y, he aske a day for the purpose ot consideration, and thereby if giving a better answer to the Commis4ioners. Theiluties performed by a Lieutatirnmal of the Ordnance were many and of great importance. lie prrs.ded at the Board, and he transit' ted not only the evil business coming before him there, hut also tlic military business which made him, as Lord Chatham said, the link between the one and the other. Ail the prisons who bad tilled thoot situation were persons of the bi,:hest military talent—the late lamented Sir H. Oakes, Lord Amberet, Lord Howe, and, if necessary, he (ulit go on with a otrinz of names of equal celebrity. It ev. , s absolutely neces sary that the Lieutenant General of the Or inance anemic, be a military man. If any office of the Ordnance were to be abolished, better let his (the Secretary's) loe abolished if they wished for the goad of the department. The Lieutenant-General superintended the elshors.e me nts of money and other 'natters, hut on those things he (Mr. W.) would not build much ; but when all loos several duties were estimated, the existence of such au officer was highly necessary. So much then as to the report of the Commissioners, which teas contradicted by the evidence on which it teas founded, and which was garbled and mutilated still inure by the lion. MeIll• ber (Mr. Hume). A part of his argument was founded on Mr. Crewe's evidence, as 'risking against that of the Noble Lords he had before-mentioned ; hut looking fairly to its result it did not differ front e hat they stated. Besides the civil duties of the I.ieutenant-Den.h• had t,, pay frequent visits to Woolwich on military aP:eirs, to survey the Artillery and other invalids. Then with respect to the allegation of two clerks bring* kept up at a salary of 700!. a year each for that office, the fact was, that op en his own (Mr. W's) motion, they were done am ay at I ast ten years ago—(hear! beer.)—He (Mr. Warde) ei6l nut know if the house expected him to go throng,' all the garbled statements made now by the Hon. Member and about two years ago, when he took such wild and erroneous views of the Ordnance Office. The mutioe now was, as the notice perpore I, about the abolltian of the Lieutenant-General, while the Hon. blember.uithout any notice, proceeded to argue almost that the whole of fice should be abolished. If the Hon. Member were so strong, he should in generosity have given *notice of the full extent of his intention. But .16e Don. Member cutout in, in his nseally sly way, and mixed up ten thou‘dnd things with the avowed object of his motion. The Hoe. Member desired them to look at what the Ordnance cost in 1792 and what it cost now. But was the Ordnance is the saute situation then as now? In 1792 they had so Horse Artillery—no corps of Sappers and Milkers -the half pay was then 20,01)01. 1 :er ann. now it it as 400,000 L —Now they had 16 new Colonies to provide tor, and in the East Indies there were great arrears of accounts, owing to want of strength, not to laziness; and that want of strength arising floes the gentry of the Hun. Member (Mr. Hume). He next catne, however unwillingly, to notice the gross, mischievous, unjust, an I crud ti-re presentation contained in the Hon. Member's unqualified assertion, that Colonel Chapman got a pension of 41K11. a-year, to make away for another person. He (Mr. W.) begged of the Hon. Member, who real, he believed. was not an ill-natured man, to look at the real state of the ease, and do Ida own and the Colon I's character the justice due them.. Colonel Chapman was employed by the Duke of Wellington in fortifying the lines of Toms Vedras; and wets new one of the only survivors of there who so materially assisted in the defence of Forage!. Next to Sir K. Fletcher, the Duke of We-Mutton consi dered the services of the Gallant Colonel, and therefore represented him to the Government as deserving of re ward. The Colonel was subsequently appointed to the office ; upon the laying down of which, he cla4eled the promise which had been made to Lim before doing so--(Hear, hear, hear!)—The. lion. Member fern:sein ed this as the object of a job: hat now that lie head the case as it really existed, he wet sure the hon. Meade r would be glad to do away the imeression he had eta if upon the House. The charge was false, cruel, Anil an just ; it was most malignant and nefarious, that a man who rendered such services to the Duke of Wellimooe in the Peninsula. should he spoken of as he wee t •-ode —(uter) Hs did not understand that cry of bear. If • hi it we rotifi Whie WO I Corn wear flOt faros !done Vene ler et Ifice gnet.l the A el.e. 0:6 • ilov vim felt% *en bit I it p. W*6 *he( Pow do r 11/Pll eirei b•in la.-ic • in tl that rtbj offic *ion P 4 Wt.! fair nal thoi (11).;1' IDS i 110 lhe I nt it n rim cre nut -••••• • , LIEUTENANT•GENERAL OP VIZ ORDNANCE. Mr. HUME said that in pursuance of the notice he bad given on this subject, he now rose to perform a most serious duty. In the perfurmanceof that daty lie shouli often find it necessary to refer to the Report of theaCom missioners of Military Inquiry. As it was proper that Members should be acquainted with the recommendations in that Report, he would state shortly the circumstances under which it was drawn up. By virtue of an Act of the reign of his late Majesty, Commissioners were ap pointed to inquire into the military expenditure of the country. It was of importance the house should under stand, not only the object of the Commission, but also the length of time and labour bestowed on the subject by the Commissioners who laid on the table of the house no less than nineteen Reports on the various matters to which their attention was given. Such was the result of the labours of a Commission composed of military men and others, equally well qualified for such an undertak ing. The Hon. Member then enuuners•eal the names of the persons who formed that Commission. The house was not aware that the constitution of the Board of Ord nance was now as it was formed in the reign of Charles the Second. There were no less than seven Reports Lid before the house on the subject of the Ordnance Depart ment. The first of them respected the Treasury, the mismanagement of which was made a subject of cow plaint. But it was to the Thirteenth Report of Beams Commissioners that he called the attention of the house. That Report was on the Board of Ordinance, and was published in ISII. The Hon. Member then read ex -1 tracts from that Report, in %%Milt the Commissioners proceeded to state the fortnalon of the floarl, which consisted of six, for conducting the department of the Ordnance. The Commissioners examined the duty, the eatery, and allowance of each officer, and stated that the salary of each was increased, viz.:— The salary of the Master-General, f. out £1,500 to £2,"33 That of the Lientenantdfierwril, from 1,100 to 1,591 Of the Surveyor• General, front . - . tiCO to 1,111 l Of Clerk of the Ordnance, from . . . to 1.141) Of the Principal Storeke• per, from . 500 1,520 The Commissioners next strnaly examined the nature and necessity of the duties, and the result was, that as no one perfornied the duty to which he was appointed, they en tered into the question how far salaries should be toad need. The Surveyor, the Clerk, and Storekeeper per formed no duty. They recommended that a regular Board of four Members should be established, to carry on the .duty, on the same principle that the business erthe Admi ralty was managed, wherein the concerns were allotted to the different Members. After this recommendation they proceeded to the other parts of the inquiry, and with a view of ascertaining how far the Quarter-Master-General and Lieut.-General of the Ordnance have separate duties to perform, independent of their duties as members of the Board. On referring to the original warrant for their establishment, they tound with regard to the latter, that the Lieut.-lienerachad to examine several books and war rants, and the several musters were made, pursuant to or der. Four senior clerks were appointed to act under them, and not to he coeval in power with the others. The Com tni then commenced an inquiry as to the p culiar du irs which the Lieutenant-tieneral had to execute ; and in reply to the question put by them, to Mr. Crewe, the Secretary, that gentleman answered, " That he had no duties to perform, independent of his duty as a Member of the Board, except in the case of the absence of the Master General of the Ordnance." They then examined two other witnesses, Lind Moira and the Earl of Chatham, both of whom had been previously Alava-General of Ordnance. The third question which they put to Lord Chatham was, " What is your Lord ship's opinion us to the utility of the appointment of the Lieutenant-General?" There appeared, however, to be on the part of his Lordship, a great difficulty in finding an answer, or at least an unwillingness in giving it, su much so, that it was at last brought in by way of post script.—(Hear, hear, anal a laugh.) He would quote the answer fairly, as lie had no wish to conceal any part of the examination which could be of use to the other side. Lord Chatham says, " it would be really difficult for me." He (Mr. Hume) alas inclined to think, that he hail taken time to consult with the parties concerned as to a palatable answer. His Lordship continued, 6' it would be really difficult fur me to conceive on what doubts of the utility of the office, the question is ground. ed, more especially after the long series of respectable names, which have hitherto filled it, and when reference is made to its original institution, and the several • re ports that have been made respecting it down to that period." He (Mr Hume) could not, however, find, on referring to the papers on the table, or to any other do - aliments, those reports which were declared to be so favourable. His Lordship weat on " that the lieutenant- General would have several duties, such as that of at tendance and deliberation at the Board." This part he (Mr. Haute) considered was in direct contra-, diction to the evidence of Mr. Crewe, the Secretary.— The Commissioners next proceeded to examine Lord Moira, and the same nuestion was put to him, what is your Lordship's opinion of the utility of the ap pointment of Lieutenant General of the Ordnance . ? The reply was, " I apprehend that the office was originally instituted in the contemplation that the Master General, wlto nos an officer of high military rank, might be sent ' abroad to command the army, and that in such case, or that of the Master's illness, the Lieutenant General would be an efficient and ready sobstittre. Beyond those contingent services, he did not know if any duties attached to that office with the exception of attendance as a. member of the Board." The observation of the Commissioners on this evidence, and the evitance it self of Lord Moira, acre extremely valuable, and de served paricular attention. They distinctly stated, that the. Lieutenant General had no duties to perform, except in the absence of the Master General. However, the House and the country at large, had lately the opportu aity of observing the absence of the late Master General of the Ordnance, (Lord Chatham) at Walcheren, and they saw that the duty was done here by the clerks of the estal&shnirnt. From that instance it might lie in ferred, that the Lieut. General might be altogether dis pensed with, or rather should be abolished, (hear, hear, hear,) as it cannot justify a constant charge of 7110 pounds. There was another instance still later, when the Master-General of the Ordnance was;et Verona, ( he Duke of Wellington) and when the business of the office was got through, without injury to the public ser-