The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-06-09 00:00:00

• STATtSMAN. s say that, as the Noble Mover ndsnitted, that the email was Prutestant, and connected with a Protestant ecclesiastical establishment, s o, i e his (Lord Livereeoi's) opinion should the Members td . tile Gores-Tensest awl la the Parliament be Pro. tests et elsu.---[ neer, lure !]—For the question .1 as, shetber a Prieesonit Dynasty, tied a Protestant le%ins!ical It s estehlishment should be supported by a Protestatit Parliament, and a Protestant Adnsi. „tet re sinsi. This appeared to him substantially the q „ ee e es , which their Lordships were called upon to c u nsislor.—Uleur, hear!] —Upon this point lie, fur .., Lr,cl se e n sin ground to alter the decision which he had already stated to their Lordships ; but it ...sold he for the Ilnuse to consider in this case, e e. l e ve under a Guretiiiiient whirl' was 110 a chi tr3o, which, on tee routes's', was limited by law, wild b.. selso to entrust the maintenance of that tesitenniessr, which was ecsantinlly Protestant, to v iy other than Pretesiessi Councils, whether it would he Bali. tic commit that (:«vessesseist to the adminis. tension of Catholics. This %%as indeed the greet question which he woutd lint teen argue in (feted, but he felt it to he the real question for the conside. rciess of Parliament. He nes ay. , lie that many in• fur wham he entertained the utmost re. seer?, were of opinion thit the te e thoece might h e eoticili•ted, while all ground of ;dal m would be re stored from the mind of the Protestants through the estatlishmesst of certain securities: but for himself, Ito was !tolble to comprehend how the securities pro.. passel remit' serve to 10-cote lli. r purposes. On tae croulrary, accortlhig to his jteiginent it appeured inspoisible to cause any such securities as should at once satisfy the Protestant awl conciliate the Catho lic—such as should remove the jealousy of the one, and be agreeable to the feelings of the other—such, in a sore!, as should form the basis of a legislative arrangement satisfactory to all parties; and his view of the subject was justified by the proceedings of the Catholics of Ireland, who had loudly and univer. ally expressed their disapprobation of the plan of securities which had on a -late occasion been submit ted to. that House. What alteration, and whether any would take place in the state of the Catholic Church, and in the opinion of the Catholic People in Ireland, which might render it safe for the Legis- lature to concede to the pretensions of the Catholic Body, he could not pretend to say; but at present be was decidedly of opinion, that no such concession was proposed, as it was prudent in the Legislature to grant with any probability of meeting a graceful reception from the Catholics. Under those conside redone he was adverse to the proposed concessions. But whatever Isis opinion might he as to the policy of these concessions, he saw nu advantage that could result from the proposed enquiry, and therefore he should give it his derided negative. Lod MELVILLE thought that the adoption of this Motion was not calculated to satisfy the Catho lic Body, and therefore he should vote against it, al though lie hy uo lase us concurred with those who re sisted the proposed concession, on the ground that it ta eked endanger t h e SPCUI i.y t.f the Church Este. Inc the security of which he was as ails:- ions as any sew oho hnrd him. Therefore, althotigh be should resist tie proposed enquiry, as unlikely to teed to any satisfactory result, he hoped that sonic legislative measure would he devised for the eoncilia. tine of the Catholics, without alarmitee the Protee sots. But from the late period of the .40. FlOll, and from what hail passed elsewhere, he could [sot expect that guy ptacticel benefit would be derived from re solving into a Committee of Enquiry upon this sub ject at present, with a view to any satisfactory con clusion e ithin this Session. Being however friendly to the Catholics, as he had manifested by his vote apon a former occasiou, he hnled that some Leiria. iative measure would be brought forward at. an early period of lite next Session, such as could he acceded I to consistently with sound policy and justice to all ' parties, and it should have his cordial support, for he was satisfied that things could not fairly remain as they were. 1 he Duke of SUSSEX declared his inteistiou to vote for the Motion, upon the grounds already so ably stated by the Noble Mover and others, who supported his view of the subject. Lord NIULGRA VE spoke strongly in favour of the motion, and deprecated the idea of abstaining to do justice to the Catholic Body, because some tierce- sonable persons were tint likely to be satisfied. it was, in his opinion, the duty and policy of the Legis lature to separate the reasonable from the um easona• ble part of the Catholics. and to render justice to the former, without any regard to the complaints or caprices of the latter; hut to refuse enquiry, and to hold out no expectation,was not the way to afford clue satisfactiass to any parts. He dissented entirely from Ike proposition of his Noble Fsiend (Liverpool), that it would be impovible to secure a Protestant Govern ment and a Protestant Church if Catholics were ad mitted into Parliament, or smite ed eligible to stet tein coil appointments. So much as to the write of the tomer:ll question : sea as to the motion before the Ileuse, he should vote fns it. kith a view to hold out an expectation to the Cetholie Body, that it was the intention of the !louse to t esoni e their just co;:i• plaints, for he was pessueded that thine,s eould not retnaist its their present slate. Lord lIARROWBY pser..l with his 'Noble Friend who spoke last, that ti.iuge could nut felonies sir their present siege, and should be ready to sub. scribe to his arguments in favour of the motion, if they were brought forward in February neat, in steed of Ilse present adsaticed period of the Session ; bet yet, on the grounds stated by his Noble Friend (Melville), he could not help declaring, that if he were a Catholic he should consider the adoption of the presentenotion as a mate morkes y. Lord BOBBING DON followed on the same side. Lord DONOUGII MORE expressed his disposi lien to conform to the wishes of the Noble Lords opposite, and therefore proposed as an Amendment, that the Howie should ?pledge into a Committee up on the question, at an early period of the tis.txt Ses lien. Lord GRENVILLE suggested that this Amend ment might be adopted, by consent, among those "ha were friendly to the priecipte of the motion. Lord LIVERPOOL declared his intention to op . pose the principle of the motion. t Lnrd NI ELVILLE expressed his approbation of the Amendment'. • The Earl of WESTMORLAND declined at pre- The Motion was then put in the amended form, and the House divided— Notsseonlents 42 Proxie. 44-86 Contents 29—Ploxies 31- 60 The Motion was thus lost by a majority of 26. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Irish Prosecution Bill was read a third time and pared. Mr. ABU:BC:ROM I: moved fur as account of the number of causes heard and determined each year by the Mater rf the Rolls in I re!,t , ti, from the Ist January, 1806, to theist January, NlL—Ordered. The Report of the Irigi Ship Letter Ilia as brought up, and taken into consideration.—To be read a third time on Monday next. The deport of the Irish Excise Licence Bill was brought tip, and takett min consideration.—To be read a third time on Mon day next. The Irish Paperhanging Bill, was read a third lime and pasted. Sir J. NEWPORT moved fora detailed account of the Law Charges to the second Solicitor of Excise in Ireland, during the last five years.—Ordered. M DRAT OF THE METROPOLIS. Mr. ROSE wished to call the attention of the House to the Meudicity of the Metropolis. He be lieved as accerate information had been obtained Ott that subject as it would well admit of. A Gentle►' man, connected with the Office of Mendicity, Mr.' Alartin, had with the greatest industry, compiled en account of the numbers and despeription of people in a mendicant state in the Metropolis and its vicinity, en account which he was ready to submit to the House. According to this account there were, on the whole, somewhat more than 15,000 persons its the Metropolis and its immediate neighbourhood who subsisted by beNing. They were divided in this manner : The persons ssho had settlements in the Metropolis or neighbourhood, amounted to 6690. of this number 4150 were children, and 9.540 adult:. There were besides 2604 persons who had settlements in different parts of the country, that is in England ; of these 1374 were adults, and 1'.130 children. Of the persons who had no settlements in this kingdom there were 5310 Irish, of whom 3273 were children, and N 37 adults. The Scott:: amounted to 501. of whom 309 were children, and 195 adults. The per-. sons who had no settlement in any of these kieg doms amounted to 177. The result gave nearla 1;0'0 adults and 9000 children. They were not all of them beggars, but some were artificers who earned as much as 40s. a week when in health, but wire fr , ,m rot being members of any friendly society, were left unprovided for when unable at any time to nork. Allowing for the maintenance of these peo ple—sixpence a day for such as were adult, and threepence a day for the children—the whole would be about 100,0001. a year. But Ile was persuaded that the gains of these people were actually much greater; and the result or his inquiry was, that he would vote the sums of money received very low if he allowed three shillings a day each. lie knew, however, to an absolute certainty, that msny of them rec e ived considerably more than this; but three shillings a day would make somewhat about 325,0001. a year, supposing only the adults to receive it, sod potting the children out of the question. The inconvenieece to the public was notorious,, not only from being incommoded by these persons in the streets (which Was the least part of the but from their having no regular means of subsistence, it was clear that the children must be brought up in habits of idleness, end vice, and misery.—The system o! education was most pernieioos. This class of persons never sent their children to schools; for the children were instruments in their hands to obtain relief by importunity. That schools were of the utmost ad ♦antage to the child.e t of the poor, there could be no deubt ; there were even instances of these chil dren actually reforming their parents : he was ac qtrainted with several instances of this description. There were runny schools about the Metropolis on a very extensive scale—the school for the chilaren of Soldiers—the Royal Naval Asylum : there was one in Westminster for not less than one thousand chil d vltich owed ;' ehielly to the . • tient to pledge himself upon the subject, although he he thought something might be done. Nearly 7000 woul•I probably support a reasonable concestien to of these people had settlements in or near the Metro the Catholics, if brought before the Ilouse in. the polis. The law of the country had prolidaela_FelletlY I (.nurse of the next Session. * for that. With respe c t t o th ose e h o b a d settlements I Lord REI)ESDA LE concurred in the opinion of iu die country the same thiug might: be done, wit I,ird Liverp o ol, observing th a t th e s y s t em o f se-'them. Th e next c l ass was those who belong . ] to I curities proposed on a late occasion, appeared to him Scotland and Ireland ; those from itzotland were few I rather to increase than to diminish the danger of corn- in uumher, and might be sent back to that country. plying with the wi.h of the Catholic Body. He ap- [lot with respect to helm', the difficulty was much proved of the concessions made to the Catholics of greater, as they were more.outherous, and in Ire.. Ireland in 11793, but he thought any farther conces- land there were no Paws Rates. In Scotland there sion would he extremely inexpedient, at least until 'were means of relief far the poor, and though there a material change took place in the character of that were no Poors Rates ge nera lly i n t h at country, yet Body. tthe law was on that subject precisely the sense as in The Earl of ABERDEEN supported the motion, Eughted. Of the foreigners, many of them might on the ground that by the motion he was not pledged he sent home to their own countries. There were to a ny general principle, but merely to an inquiry, often to be seen seamen begging with one arm only,, for which he thought the present moment inauspi- or sue leg. Knowing the. false imputation which . ciaus. In the next Session the situation of Europe they brought on the country, he .had often spoken might enable them to decide without danger on the to such persons, who admitted that they received a claims of the Catholics. pension of 181. n year. 'l'heae were the most int - - - - - •• • porionoe of all beggars. • Art ! r alluding to burgh and ILindiurtzh, where Meudicity was pre, vented, the Right lion. Gentleman cottipletieti with moving for a Committee to enquire into the state of, bleodicity In the Metropolis and its immediate neigh-, bout hood. Mr. IJAMNIERSLEX spoke in „fera of raise of an inititution for the relief of the isoua s in Dublin. Sir M. ittinxy. 64d, .that.. four 04t of are ppr. so:, never tank. the tickets to the Mendacity Of Dflr. pgru4: conceryfrt,iorthp..praisvahltich had ; been bestowed on the management of the Dublin Asylum, but he doubted whether it would he politic. to extend the plin to this count. y. It did not ope rate in discouraging mendicity, and Nos kept up at.' an expense of 50,0001. a.year. As there were no • poor lan On Ireland, this Institution might be there • necessary. There was no town where mendicity prevailed to such an extent as in Dublin, and where the beggars were so. wretched. Sir JOHN NEWPORTdeprerated the attempt to introduce the chatitahlp asylums of I r el an d i n t o thi s country. ;. they were necesnary. in Ireland, but not here. Mr. LOCKHART . hoped that in regulating the metropolis, they would not lose sight of the coun try. By driving beggars from London, they might . afterwards be let louse on the country. Mr. ROSE said, it was .desirable that the respec tive parishes should take'cire of their own poor. No body wa s mere evenly tl4n himself to remove any personwhile_ he could pitt . intalp . himself ; end Ike had first introducwdl - law Mr. LOCK HART eiplainetL, After some farther ebsetrationa from-Sir John Se. bright, Mr. Alderman Atkints,Sir Chas. Monck, and the Chancellor. of the Exelienuer 4 the Motion wat agreed to, and a Committee named. Mr. PEELE brought in a Bill to augment the sa lary of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, Which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday next. • BATHING tv TEM IP %NIES. ,Jt . 4-1.4A1f-CI,4Y presented a Petition, signed by persosy ittlaisitistAfinusps on the 'Thames, against the ninnies filth - lug Bill. Ile had another Petition from th'e sitermen who ply on the rivet', against the Bill. "" hY. A. TXTLOIT Tited.27 years besides the Thames, and .he had Never seen any of the nuisances complained of by Bon. Gentlemen. Ile had frequently not seen six persons bathing in the Thames in the course of la twelvemonth. Any in decent practices mold be pnitisheil at common law. Be was bred in Westmiuster School, and he owed a great deal to that Seminary ; and he was proud of being a Westminster boy.—[ Laugh.] .Ir..RARV EY had likewise the pleasure of living on the banks of the Thames, and he could not help saying, that* was almost impossible for ahy decent person tit in such situation from the number of persons undressing themselves, and exposing their naked bodies to view. After a fee wneds, from M r,c.isivert and Mr. M. A. or Tayl Mr. C. W. Wynne, and Mr. Horner, the . r• .. Petitions were read, and ordered to lie on the table. • The House, on the motion Mr. C. W. WY NNE, went into a Committee no the Thames Bathing Bill. ' Mr. lIAR V El" moved as an Anietiment,a chaise to present persons from indecently. caposing thrm., Pelves in all stairs where bolts were taken, nod to quable nan '' istrates, on a representae fount people inhabiting tike banks of the River, complaining of the nuisance, to order posts to he put up; 11'411111:g per sons not to undress themselves and bathe near the spots where such posts were lilt up, and that -theist Offending should be subjected to a penalty. not ex. seeding 10s. and not less than ss. fur a lint offence, and 20a. for n second offence. The Committee div ided, — For the Aivientline..t . Against it sren, which owed its existence chiefly to the Speaker, Al..itoil!p acii,:sl the A..1 , 1.,1:n..nt - —'2l in conjunction wild the late Mater of Westminster I On bringing up the Report of the Committee of School.' Such schools were deserving of every degree : s upiiy, , of encouragement. A good deal of attention had I also been paid to the situation of the poor of - the Ca.! Sir .101 IN NEWPORT recommended that that pilaf end its neighbourhood. There was the associa- pall of the schedule which laid au additional duty of one halfpenny on Newspaper , should be omitted. thin with which' Mr. Martin was connected :--A In his opinion such an imposition was at this time number of Gentlemen were authorised to deliver I peculiarly impolitic—at this time, *hen the people tickets to those people whom they might find beg. were so much in wont of information. The new ging; they carried their tickets to Mr. Martin's duty, to a certain eateitt, mast operate as a prohibi. house, w Ito made inquiry into their character, and . firm. if he found they were persons deserving of relief, ' The CH A NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER they obtained nssistnnce from him. In addition to made a single remark, inaudible in the. Gallery ; af this there was an establishment which was called ter which a division took . plat . e. The nbers were The Stranger's Friend, not generally known, but the following:— which was admirably conducted. The persons I • Fott Ibfarimlutinn - f.3—.4 rant it .• 11 themselves went about town arid informed them.! OSSPar - retartvio the galtery we fogad the Ifouse se:: , •s ::s to the situation of VP rinti3 paupers, whose taking into further censideretion the Report of the modesty would not allow them to beg in the Ind ia Shipping Bill, and Mr. %VALI:ACE proposing common way, amid gave them relief. There was a oewOnutie'tcespecting the admission of Indla4ballt another Institution, called a Refuge for the ()esti- ships it a certain tonnage. tute, which was butter known than the former.— Mr. NIARRYAT was decidedly hostile to the There was also another lately established, called the whole measure as repugnant to many of the prin. Irish Benevolent Society. His intention was to pro. cipies laid down iii the reports of the Company it pose to the House to appoint a Committee to consi. self. He contended at some !Pooh that chips built der the State of Mendicity. If this should be agreed in India could have no right, to trade to China, which to, he would, its the first place propose, that the was a foreign State, upon any vimv of our navigation Committee should endeavour to ascertain the fact of laws; 'mid thatit was impossible to convert them to the Went of the evil. It was at least deserving of other purposes of armament or political utility, to attention to try if some means could not be devised which British.boilt vessels trading to the East were for remedying it. When the wisest and berg of men at all times eonvertitile. Ile concluded by moving a had failed ; it would be presumptuous to- suppose. clause, evepting, ell vessels employed by the Exit that complete success could be expectid.' BLit still India Company, and not registered, manned, &c. according to the provisions of the NavigallettAct, from tl 0 tuivilree3 of 13i . ish :him. Mr. GRANT thought the honorable Gentleman, bad laboured bard to make the worse appear the better reason, lie had quoted Reports of the Court of Directors to support a doodle contrary to. the, obvious intention and scope of those Reports. The Court of Directors had never any particular objac.., 'ion to teak ships more than to other shi; 3 ; but their objection wes to admitting any title. , stir sifo: the participation of their rights. He conceiver, that the clew proposed by the . Honourable (4 , 110.- ,an :would Pave the effect of !taking away the Char er r from the Company, and giving them up, bound hand hod foot, into the power of a few ship-builders om tire River Thames. His isrgument -went upon the, . fallacious supposition, that if this Bill were to pan t , all the ships to be employed in the trade for the fue, ture would come from India. The only conseqnence would be, that the Company would not be left entirely at the mercy of about half a dozen ship-builders on the. River Thames, to be charged whatever rotor. bitagt.prige they thought proper. Its IM, the price. they ",charged was 141. a ton. In .1800 it wee. 191. 10s.; but after 1805,,it, went from 251. t 04.71,1 .4 per km The price of wakes, wbich. o .,in 179,3 tram, 4s. Bd. e.dity, bad afterwards got up to ;Js. anikeeloA to Ws. if those men chose to idle three dry e le, the week, It uas the East InAia Commis/Ilea moss, pay for it. For a lung perked of tirmi - lise Comiatteei , had been entirely at the mercy of the ship-dit'ilicle* - of. the River Thames. The power of building*" hi ludic had certainly rendered them some% baL,merei independent of them. huh*, however, hid riot (kg means or resources, nor wpold it have fore leeg tbne,. of finding tonnage equal to the t !em an ds, o flosemeece.. lie believed that Qut of,the last 79 ships, .13.0e1y hid been (wilt in ludia. As thebuilding . for Indiaarea tires, above a third of the .whole bosinesa of 11)..skil/a builders in the Titeyeets,l4 gran going tee At ; lki; qv, would that their trade be anuilsilated, eyep,Rito whole of the East belie business was wig As" from them. There was no reason, howerer,'itp, doubt but that they would for a lang s tiopte 'save bly; much the greater part of (heir business. When the- Worthy Alderman (Alderman Atkin.) had, spoken, of the number of ship-wrights tlvrt would be threseta, out of employ, he must ohse: ye thiit he believed thp. wPstle.outmber of ship-hyiehla in the Thames did not: exceed 4500, and that 400 tow qeite 4300 of these). were 41 that were ever eft pluyed _its .beildjog ship. for the. East India Compasig, NVere ail theAsat in. • terests of the Company to . be. then sacriic to the 'interest of a Very small number of stop-budder' and 1 ship-wrights outbeTbasues ? AB that these peptone !could cow complain *f, ire', that their monopoly I would be .affected by introdircing a serZ" elem.: : petition. It was a most mintaken idea Its eettcelve I that India ought to be governed at all like * polony. It was a great and populous empire, rich in arta aeti manufactures when we first came there; it Would; he ' therefore, most uujust to prevent them events% themselves of their natural advantages. It Tumid bp, also most impolitic for this country to refueettellt* itself of the advantages that their great ! faszletsietet forded for ship-building. As to the appieitemson.nt . the Indium *unlit% a great maritime natiou,,le must be recellected,shat of all the,cl asse s o f ['Wiens it was only the blahometans that.ever became seileVl N , and therefore the lireiati sailers could only be to .. from among those Malurtnetans that happened. _ live near the sea coasts. As to what bad been sa about the probability of a Revolution in Ind*, b kei considered that our Government was now QUlre confirmed and stable than at airy former period. • Mr. PIA 1111 VAT, iu explanation, said, that hie clause did not at all respect the ships employed in the 1 trade between. India and this country, but had only, reference to the trade with. China„ the menopoli of I whirl' was allowed to bo A goat advantage to .the •1 Company. , , .. Mr. Alderman ATKINS observed, that * ler. veyors of the India C rinpany exercised the right o f I survey as to. the materials of the ships built for them In thrariver.Thatites, as strictly as it was exercised on the part of the Royal Navy. The greet inerea 40 in the price of ship-building hnd not proceeded from !eny t %orbit:int demands on the - . ship.boilders but from the great price to which (torten timber hod froen raised, from our being excluded from tire trade, 14 I the Continent. ...4s to the _price of latstrar,. the. wag had raised the votive of .. awl gl4l of tpaa's la . po t i ip the same,proportien !het, btbeeVieles :we :e After a few observations tispi Xr. P. &wpm . wnd Mr. FORBES, Tl).ouse i dividyd OT the slai6 P . • Against It ' .. . . Ilelarlor 11 99 -5111 . •• . " On nor re.admi..sion into the Gallery,. • Sir-C- . 1 1 0141.: was moving an amendment in a oleos on the Bill respecting the navigation of ships to and from India. TM' original clause was, that there should be five British fi“.11011 employed for every ton of shipping below GOO tons. The amendment be moved was, that instead of five, the word seven should be inserted. This even would not come up to the provisions of the Navigation Art, which required three-fourths of the crew to be British. This amendment gave rise to a pretty long tarmac. lotion, and was finally carried in the affirmative. Some other clauses were introduced, and the all was ordered to be engrossed. On the motive► of Mr. FAWCETT, it was or, tiered, that a copy should be laid before the noose of the Memorial presented to the Lords of the Treasury on the Roth of February, 1815, by the Merchants and Agente‘treding to India, respecting ship levers. Th. other Orders of the Day were then dkruseil of.—Adjourned. FERDINAND OF SPAIN. We have received from I'aris the Memoirs et Llorente, containing a collec.tion of amount important papers relating to the Spanish Revolution, tending to develop its origin in a full manner. From therm we hare copied a letter from Ferdinand .0 Napoleon, written in October, 1807, which forms a perfect contract to the sentiments contained in his recent de daraiion of oar. It is evident that both were penned by (he same hand, and their perusal wi I evince, whit little reliance can be plsced on Laity an laboured declarations from a corrupt source. After the manner in which Ferdinand and Lis pr7se.ls w - ~' A~ `{: IN MI • ■ 11 I I