The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-05-31 00:00:00

rWP' -0 77 5 .. : . 4 . L ..f.'s THE .STATE MAT. it his duly, though ftiendly to the relief of the Ca-. flshes, to require information and prdp.r documents, that Parliament might know what they were pro ceeding upon ; and he wished the information to come from a Select Committee, whose report would he a document. The uninformed Catholic would then learn that the necessary testrictions were no more then their Catholic ancestors prescribed. Even Queen Mary could nut repeal those Acts which our modern reformers wished to sweep week. He could not.support this measure ; but he W(13114 no oppose going into the Committee. if any valuable informa tion come out there, be should be gist' of it : but he did not stiongly expect it. The Resolutions were subversive of matters vital to the Constitution. He was sure the opinions of sober-minded Catholics were here with him, and he was sure that the Pro testant mind would not be satisfied. Mr. YORKE was surprised, after the able argu ments of the lion. Bart. that he should be in favour of going into a Committee. They who opposed the Motion in 1813, were not likely to have changed their opinions, and it was unnecessary to argue with those who thought that the question should he con ceded at all hazards. Those, lie thought, who voted in 1513 for the propositions on the principle of se striction, could not consistently vote for the pre sent resolutions. The measure of 1813 was full of restrictions, drawn up in the most artificial way. his Noble Friend had stated, that on minor points, where no additional security was requisite, lie had no objection ; but that on matters of higher im. portaoce, he expected a complete and even addi tional safeguards. At th;s moment a great differ ence existed between the English and the Irish Ro man Catholics as to this question, both as to securi ties and as to power of the Roman See. The peti tions were various : some praying for the abolition of all securities, and some for relief from all re striction respecting the choice of Bishops. Some spoke of the Constitution as framed and matured by the Catholics, by patriot Catholic Kings and Pre lates. The argument would be as good for Pagans on that principle; for it was by our Pagan German and Teutonic ancestors, that the essence of our Constitution wai'formed. Paganism. would, in that view of the case, stand as well as Catholicism. If the Constitution was owing to the Catholic Sove reigns, perhaps it was most so to the last of them; Henry VIII. and his daughter Mary, for instance. lie need scarcely say any thing about James H. Really, if the framers of such petitions understood the British Constitution, they must understand it in a very different way from most other people. He feared that they did not know precisely what they wanted. Let Gentlemen compare the present Reso lutions with the . Bill of last year, and contemplate the difference. He had no hesitation in saying that be wished to see the Catholics secured in their pos. session of all the ordinary civil rights, and if a hill were brought in for the purpose of altering the elist iug laws with reference to marriages and the transfer Of property, he should be ready to give it his sop. yort. The Bill brought in by the Kight Hoe. Gent. (Mr. Grattan) provided certain securities, particu larly with regard to the election of Catholic Pre lates, of which he saw nothing in the Resolutions in. tended to be leered by the Hon. Bart. ; but if every thiOg was granted that was required, would the Ca tholics of Ireland be either conciliated or satisfied? la—[flear, hear !]—• lie had been sorry to observe in the proceedings of Cathotic assemblies in Ireland, speeches and sentiments expressive of a most inrete. tate hostility to British conuectiun. A. Gentleman e the name of O'Connor had been described as descended from their ancient Kings. Should the present measure be carried, it would be treated only with contempt by those whom it was meant to ap pease and gratify ; and if the House should agree to go into the Committee, it would be necessary to toutinue the Call even at this late period of the Session during the transaction of business so import. ant. He never could consent to entertain the gene ral question, until he knew distinctly what were the intentions of the Romish See; and he should be happy to know from his Noble Friend (Lord Castle teagh), whose opinions went farther than his own on the expediency of concession, whether any, and what understanding had been come to, either as to the oath or the King's excequalur. When he last spoke on the subject, he had not expected that the Pope would be so soon suijuris ; but he understood that there were how at Rome, persons deputed both from the English and Irish Roman Catholics, who were busily eniployed in preventing his Holiness from coming to any decision whatever. Upon the whole, he considered that the agitation of this ques. tint. could effect no salutary purpose, and could only serve to keep afloat unnecessary difference of opinion. Mr. KNOX observed, he had always thought that the concession of the Catholic Claims would add pettily to the strength and interests of the empire; but iie bad, at the same time, always contemplated the necessity of the roost ample security for the ex clusion of foreign influence. When lie had formerly ♦oted in support of those Claims, he had expected from the circumstances of that period, that the dis position of the Irish Catholics and the concurrence of the Pope would remove every reasonable objec tion. The prospects, however, now were by no m: - ?aris equally flattering. The Catholics appeared to him determined, even if the concurrence of the Pope should be obtained, to refuse every plan and ar rangement that could be offered, short of unlimited and unqualified concession. The rescript of M. Quarantotii had been received, not with gratitude, but with disdain. New scruples instantly arose as to the provisions of a civil nature, and their whole conduct appeareJ to have no other view than that of keeping the question alive for the purpose of foment- . . ing sedition and disaffection among the people.— [Hear, bear 11—He should vote against the motion, ' from the persuasion that it was impossible, in the de graded subserviency to which the Catholic popula. lion was reduced, under the domination of a few de signing men, who were labouring to blast both their popes abd the hopes of their posterity, to concede any thing that would he received with gratitude, or 'that would inspire a spirit of conciliation. • Mr. M. FITZGERALD could not agree iti the proposition of a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Yorke), that the sentiments of a majority of that Hons. ought never to experience any change, nor could he believe that the House was so deaf to the soice of rea,son and liberality as to be inexorably lived en withholding what Was demanded, not only by the principles of toleration, but what the Con stitution bud, in his judgment, guaranteed to loyal subjects. Tho preamble of the Petition claimed no. thing as matter of positive or indisputable right ; it submitted only the justice and wisdom of Port ia ment the full extent of the opinions, the hopes, and wishes of his MajestY's Roman Catholic subjects.— He could not think the period of the season too far advanced for going into a consideration of the subject, as. the Right Honourable Gentleman was , himself favourable to the minor concessions, and a I Bill might ttierefore be passed, almost unanimously, ua far as related to them, and another Bill referring to the mote leading objects of the Petition might be introduced, and stand over for deliberation. Het had heard much of the language employed out of doors, and of the dissensions prevailing amongst the . Catholics themselves; but, he would ask, were these groutuls• on which Parliament ought to legi. i slate [Hear, hear I—lf1 —If the Petitioners prayed: for unrestricted concession, they did not mean to dictate to the House, any more than his Honour able Friend meant to tie up the discretion of a Come mittee by.his Resolutions. Ile conceived that the Honourable Baronet (Sir J. C. Hippisley) who, he• had always supposed, had been an active and ener.. getic friend to the Catholic Cause, but who had that day almost called in question its leading principle, had entered into the discussion of details rather pre maturely. He understood too, that a highly respect able Prelate was on his way from Rome, with a do comeut of the highest importance, and which was likely to give full satisfaction to his Majesty's Go. vernment : this Paper might be examined, if the House should agree to go into the 'Committee.— - With respect to the Veto itself, his opinion had. never changed. He objeated,to it as leading to mis chievous consequences, by giving to a Protestant Go vernment and to Protestant politicians an interfer ence in the patronage of a Catholic Church. The language used by some individuals out of doors, he ceusidered as having no connection o Rh the real merits of this question ; but it might justify him in referring to those prophecies and waruings which had so often suggested the danger of producing irri tati.in by delay, and of throwing the Catholic popu lation into the hands of men who aimed at causing violence and agitation.—[Hear, hear .I—The Ca tholic Question was to theM their.great weapon of office; by conceding the claims, that weapon would fall harmless from their hands. Was the greet m a ss of the population, including all the deserving, to have their Petitions rejected, and their interests over looked, on . account of the inflammation produced by thri mischievous efforts of a few ?---Were the higher orders, who were most interested, to be punished for ate misconduct or irregularities of the lower ? Nobody could deplore morodeeply thin himself the conduct of the Catholics to big Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Grattan). He was confident, how. ever, that this would afford no motive to hi 3 Right Horrourable Friend for any abatement of his zeal in this great cause. Those generous and splendid ef. forts which he hod already made, bad never been exciied by popular applause, nor would they he knew betel nonrated by popular ingratitude.H . Hear, hewr r i —To him belonged the glory of having, is fact, established the great principle of the question, as well as of those subordinate concessions which he had conquered from the good sense of the legisla. tore. Before he sat dowit, he wished to observe, that if the Petition of the English Catholics had not been signed by the leading individuals and nobility of that persuasion, it had been signed by a great num. ber of respectable and wealthy persons. The same observation would apply to the Petition of the Irish Catholics. In his county it had been signed by all the principal proprietors, except three, two of whom held offices under Government. Whatever differences of opinion might exist amongst them, all approved of the principle of the measure, and were virtually Petitioners at the bar of the (louse. Mr. Serjeant BEST by no means conceived that when the House, in a former Session, voted for going into a Committee, they then intended to pledge themselves to concede tc the Catholics every thing that they thought proper to ask. He was sure the Right lion. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Canning) was not at that time disposed to concede their claims, without what he conceived sufficient securities for the Protestant establishment. The securities which he, then proposed were now withdrawn. Krell those' securities which were then offered, did not appear to the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Speaker), and to ; many other Members of the House, to be sufficient. There were sense things in those Resolutions that might be very proper to grant. As to what related to the army, he thought it might be proper to grant what was sought ; but there was no occasion, on this: account, to go into a Committee to consider the COI. tholic claims in general. If a short Bill was brought in to remedy some of the evils complained of, he should be eery happy to support it. As far as he recollected, when the question was brought forward; the last time, the claim of right was very prudently kept back. The question was, however, now brought forward as a claim of right, which could not be withheld without the most manifest injustice. %S'hen the highest authority in the Catholic Church, who was now restored to the Papal Throne, informed the' Catholics of Ireland, that the securities required were not inconsistent with their religion, on what principle could they resist them, unless they . were ; fully determined to bring forward their claims in such a shape that they must be rejected.? The Ca. tholic people of Ireland could not pretend to set up ; their opinion of the Catholic religion against those ot i the acknowledged head of their church. A Catholic Prelate (Dr. Milner) had, in one of his publications, i said, " that although in ordinary cases Kings could lint be deposed by Papal authority ; yet no man could say what was the power of the Pope in ex traordinary cases for the prevention of heresy." It appeared to him that it would he better to postpone this question altogether, until the Pope, after being restored to his Throne, should state expressly what was the extent of his civil. power. It was by no means an antiquated doctrine, that oaths taken against the interests of the chords were null and void. He saw no occasion to go into a Committee on the Catholic Claims, when the Houstrwas given clearly to understand, that the Catholics would not be satisfied with any thing short of the whole of their demands. The House was, therefore, perfectly com petent to judge whether they were prepared to grant the whole of those claims. If they were not, it v odd be a mere waste of time to go into the Committee. Mr. PONSONBV.—" I have so frequently de. livered my sentiments upon the Catholic Claims, in former debates, that I do nut think it necessary to enter at any length upon the subject this night, con ceiving, as I do, that a repetition of my arguments would be ns disgusting to the house as irksome to myself-1 shall therefore only offer a few reasons for the rote which I shall give for going into the Com mittee. At the same time I am ready to •acknow. ledge that the time and mode of introducing this sobs ject is not the most judicious.----rilears hear Pl—ln voting for going into the Committee, in order to afford the House an opportunity of considering the question in all its bearings, however, I do not conS' sider myself as held bound in the smallest degree to any one of the Resolutions proposed by the Hon. Baronet. It would he a strange perversion of the ordinary course of Parliamentary proceedings, if be cause in agreeing to a Committee, it was known that , certain specific propositions were to be submitted in that Committee, that those who had voted for the Committee were of consequence to be bound to adopt those specific propositions.—[hear, hear !]—l ap prehend the very reverse is the case, for the essence and object of every Committee is to examine, in de.: tail, the subject which shall be submitted to their consideration ; and without such examination they cannot, of course, be considered as giving those de.. tails their assent. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman who spoke last has admitted, that relief to a certain extent is due to the Catholics of Ireland,, and has expressed his readiness to give his feeble aid ! towards introducing a Bill for attaining this end— he, at the same time, however, utterly disapproves of any Committee been formed. Now, if the lion. and Learned Gentleman had been at all acquainted with the rules and usages of Parliament, he would have found that to introduce such a Bill, without a Committee, would be utterly impracticable, as the invariable rule is, to submit such questions to the consideration of a Committee, before the House is moved for leave to bring in the Bill. Insomuch, therefore, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's . observations are favourable to the Resolutions before' us. In voting for the Committee, I hold myself as free to decide on the merits of . the specific proposi tions to be discussed, as he who is determined to vote against them but it is not because I disap. prove of the conduct of the Petitioners,.thaf I am therefore to oppose the Committee. The Honour ably and Learned Gentleman says the Cath olics, on this occasion, have come forward with positive de. mends, less than which will not satisfy them. I protest against being supposed in any degree'( pledged to what is ca;led the demands of the Ca tholics. The question for consideration now, how. . ever, involves not merely the interests of the Ca tholics or the Protestants,. but the freedom, and the happiness, and the welfare of the whole community. I cannot, because any particular individuals have been guilty of indiscretion, deny that which is due to the prosperity of the community at large.— [Hear, hear !]—The Catholics may demand what titter please; but no Member is bound to concede more than he may. think proper. It is natural where a great deal is due, that a great deal should ,be de manded ; but because there is a universality of de. mend, it does not therefore follow there shall be a universality of concession. My opinion now, how. ever, as it has always been, is, that the measure it self is the greatest security which this country can have.—[llcar, hear!] —I think that the Catholics would have acted wisely, prudently, and with judg ment, if, in seeking the accomplishment of. their de. sires, they had acted consistently with the wishes, or the pleasures, or the prejudices of the Protestants, and this I have declared upon more occasions than one. Were a consideration of the conduct of the Catholics to bias my vote upon this occasion, whets consider the course which they have pursued towards my Right lion. and highly-respected Friend (Mr, H. Grattan) it would place me in the list of their one. Wes. To him they owed more than to any othei men alive. and yet how did they pay dulls debt of • gratitude ? I am persuaded, however, whateses may have beets the motives by which they were actuated, I or however ill counselled they may have been, the ' the feelings of his great mind have not been altered, and that their conduct has mide as little impression upon him as it has upon me.—[(/ear, hear n—in considering the question itself, the proceedings of the Catholics will not induce him or me to vote against the consideration of a subject iu which I conceive the highest interests of this country are involved. . UpOn these grontids I shall vote for going into the Corn. mittee ; but, I repeat, in a'seeding to the MO'figt for this purpose, I pledge myself to no distinct opinion as to the propositions which my lion. Friend (Sir 11. Parnell) may think proper to propose." Mr. PEEL thought that it would be alerogstory to the honour and dighity of Parliament to go into a Committee, when there was not the least chattre of one thing they could do being satisfactory to the Petitioners. On former occasions, it was alavays in their contemplation that some arrangement might be made which would give satisfaction. They were now expressly given to understand, that nothing would be satisfactory, except agreeing to those'Reso. 'tithing, and to the Bill which the Catholics, to sate them the trouble of legislation, had 'sent reedy drawn. The lion. Baronet had assured the House, that if those Resolutions were agreed to, they might depend on Catholic gratitude. When this Catholic gratitude, however, was promised, it Mat impost. isle not to recollect the conduct of that body to the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan). When the Hon. Baronet had represented, that on that account it was not worth squabbling about securities, he could not avoid rrferring to the public prints, which might, in sometlegree, be considered as their Gazettes. In the report made to the Catholic Association, by Mr. O'Connel (a very leading matt among the Catholics), that Gent. stated that the Hoe. Baronet (Sir 11. Par nell) had with great cheerfulness undertaken to pre sent their Petition under the conditions and terms that were suggested to him. Sir H. PARNELL rose to mder, and said the statement in the paper was materially incorrect. Mr. PEEL said, that it was however certain that it was the Sub-Committee of this Association which had waited ou the Hun. Baronet. lie then described soil grea. ten 0 occasion. M 4 this s i g be e t -r•ammsa.....••••:eamors......M••••••••••ititnpo eveurryb..7.-e0 this Association as comPlce d of the "Me :l e i :lis t who sat in the Catholic Convention, and alierwarda in the Catholic Board, both which essemb c ti a e t s bo e taidc. been put down as unlawful. As to the cnreh rt of this Catholic Board or Coneentintivi,teh eezwpoenelilsneof peal to every min who knew the state of irelaild e fi . the 14st-three years. He would appeal in Jurors, who had almost enattimqiisly letitioned against them. He would appeal To their art of s e . pointing a Committee, to consider of an application to the Cortes of Spain. This Board had also or. pinked parochial subscriptions for teose Petiti Ins, to which householder was obliged' to • Tho l e' who did not pay it were entered &len ac havin g re. fused to pay. He tit es read several strone r ,,„.. from the speeches of Mr. O'Connell , ! simply to be considered el an individual, but s' m a e. individull who, above all others, enjoyed !share of confidence of the Ceiholica. In commeniink upon the 'Nemeses which followed a vote in that;. House, he used the followieg expressions : " Let the Catholic of Ireland remember the ruffian shout of English insolence upon that the last shout of English insolence and triumph over this fallen and degraded country." lie then read many passages front this Gentleman's speeches, t o show how little spirit of conciliation there was among the leaders of the Catholics in Ireland. The Hon. Gentlemen then adverted to the Resolution of the Catholic Board, in 1813, and which was prefaced by the notorious speech of Dr. Dromgoole, from which the Right lion. Gentleman extracted those passages in which the Doctor seemed to predi c t t h e approaching ruin of the Established Church, and exult over the prospect. This very leareek prefaced a Resolution adopted by the Board, in which they declared,ln reference to the Bill then before Parlia. ment for their relief, that nothing but entire freedom from every sort of restriction would satisfy their claims. On the same Bill the Catholic Pielatesi e Ireland came to a Resolution, that its prescriptions were absolutely incompatible with the Constitution of their Church, and voted their thanks to Dr. Mil. tier as their incorruptible agent, and strenuous chem. ! pion, because lie had circulated a Paper to that elect. I These, then, were not the doctrines of a .solitery in. dividual or too, but of the great body of the Cathn lics, and while they prevailed it was utterly hopeless to expect any final or satisfactory arrangement. Sir JOHN' NEWPORT said, that looking most anxiously, as he did, to the tranquillity of Ireland, land looking also to_ the buryiug in oblivion, as far as possible, the animosities which existed between that country and this, he conceived that it was of the et most importance the motion of his Hon. Friend (Sir H. Parnell) should be acceded to. At a season of foreign danger, and when the country was celled up on to enter into foreign subsidies for herldefenre, and when a proper policy would dictate the necessi. ty of making all their domestic resources suitable, it was surely most unjustifiable in every point of view, to seize that moment above all others, to re ject, +without either enquiry or examinetion, the con. • siderotion of grievances affecting so large a portion of the people : the only effect of such a line of con ,duct •would he, the paralyzation of steads nee third of the strength of the Empire, ate moment weir.d rho energies of all were essential to Itf locality. The question was not, as had been stated by the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, whether the House would grant all the claims of the petitioners, but whether they would go into the consideration of the restric tions by which they were affected, a part of which at least it was on all hands admitted, ought to be re. moved.—[hear .9—The Right Hon. Geittlenian (Mr. Peek), however, .it was evident, would incur any sacrifice sooner than manifest the slightest regard to the claims of this portion of his Majesty's sub jects. ,He had loudly dechteedi that no particle of satirfactioe would result to .the Catholic Body of Ireland, if the question were sent to a Commit tee—that they were under the guidance of agi tators, whose object wits any thing hut concilia lean, and that it was in vain to attempt a course of procei;ding which would totally fail of the effect which Rs advocates sought to produce. Now he (Sit Jobe Newport) was of quite a differed opinion es . to . lltat which ought to regulate their con duct, for be thought there could be no surer way of discouraging the people from the bondage of those who were styled• Agitators, than by 'calmly and dis. ' passionately eensiderfog and remeilsing the evils which confessedly existed.—[Hear, hear!]— If the contrary step were adopted, that violence which they all censured or lenieuted would only be exposed to a prolonged durati o n. It was necessary to he re collected, that the main points in agitation were those which aifected the political character of the upper classes in society—the lower ones only felt them in as int:ch as they regarded the pride and Station of thier seoerinrs—the extension pf the elec tive frartrise had already conferred power on that portion of thy' cornmwrity whose efforts'were most to he feared. This privilege could :not he recalled influence - cored - tier' be IcirceinsFrited ; and instead of keeping it in its natural chaunel, our op. position of the natute held forth agiiiivt any adjus. mint of those claims, would only confirm that which was described as a radical evil, and still more strongly lead to .he perpetuity of contentions, which could teretinate in no good purpose. Whets Gentlemen talked of concession, they should con 'eider how little this salutary object was - forwarded by some of those who opposed the present motion.-- How was concession to be effected, when One ot the principal Members of his Majesty's Govern. ment urged the intemperate expressions which had been casually selected from individuals in Ireland, instead of entering upon the consideration of the real merits of the case, and probing the vital character of a great measure, which ought to be decided upon sound judgment, not evanescent feeling, and in the discoesion of which all mean and unworthy feelings, no matter what their origin may he, should be wholly overlooked ? in going into a Committee, they were slot hound to adopt any distinct Course; they were merely obeying the dictates of good sense, pru dence, and propriety, by entering upon 4 fair amd dispassionate extimination of restrictive lags, which retarded the general interests of the empire. This Committee would be neither hound by a single pro elition, nor by the views of any individual Member, it would be open and commits to all for n'ie nitre. duction of particular opinions, and it would be coot- 1 • r I w - . ~. ,R