The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-30 00:00:00

hail merely made those observations in answer remark of the Noble Lord respecting him (Sir' which he had no doubt was made in the same . Lord NUGENT said nothing could be more grati fying to him than the explanation which the Hon. Baronet had been so good as to give of some expres sions which he had used respecting him. Dlr. ABERCROMBIE regretted that the Hon. Baronet had not been in his place on a former night, fur iu that case he would have heard a succession of Irish Members bearing their testimony to the general satisfaction which the present measure gave to the greater portion of the loyal and intelligent Irish Roman Catholics. it no doubt would give dissatis factiou to others, for it would reduce some who pos sessed an unworthy desire of power to a state of de saved insignificance. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) said, that not only was the measure approved by the Catholics in general, hut that Mr. O'Connell of Dublin, who had taken an active part in opposition to it, was not able to get the signa tures of nine persons. which signatures were requisite to form an aggregate meeting in order to disapprove vf it. Probably Mr. O'Connell thought, that if &bees rained down from Heaven, not one of them would be made to et his own head.—(A laugh.) Mr. HUTCHINSON protested against the unqttali fed assertion of his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Abercrombie.) that all peace.ible, loyal, and vir toot's Catholics were in favour of the Bill.—(No.) — He should be happy to hear his apprehension of his Honourable Friend's meaning corrected ; as he under stood it, he was obliged to give it a decided contra diction. He had mentioned the instance of one of the Catholic Bishops of Ireland, as virtuous, intelligent,' and respectable a Catholic as was to be found in eithet kingdom, who was decidedly opposed to the second Bill. There were reasons also to believe, that the Heads of the Catholic Church in both countries were a!so averse to the second Bill, which was now incor porated with the other. The Honourable Member for Galway had been guilty of a great indiscretion in men tioning the name of a Gentleman who was not present to defend himself (Mr. O'Connel.) As the name of t':at Gentleman had been mentioned, whom he was proud to call his Friend, he should state that lie had the hi4hest respect for Mr. O'Connell, on account of the exemplary manner in which he discharged all the private duties of life; and that, as to his public con slact, there was not a truer-hearted Irishman. The Honourable Member stated, that on the third reading he should oppose the penal enactments respecting the Catholic Clergy. Mr. ABERCROMBIE and Sir 7. LETHBRIDGE r'utually explained. After a few observations from Mr. WYNNE and Mr. (bees the Report was read, and on the question that it should lie on the table, Mr. CHOKER rose to make the motion of which he had given notice, with respect to the difference which the present Bill produced to establish between t! e Oath of Snprentacv to be taken by the Protestants and the Catholics. Tile ground upon which he pro posed mainly to rest his motion, was this—that while by the present Bill the spiritual authority of the Pope than dietinaly recognised, it would be a palpable uno 'zloty to rail upon the Protestants to swear that his Holiness bath not any spiritual authority whatever in Via country. After such recognition, indeed, of the Pope's authority, as this Bill contained in its moor r:ents fur regulating the iatercourse of the Roman Catholic Clergy with the See of Rome, it would he an absolute injnatice to require of any Protestant to ri-eative the existence of such an autbovity upon oath. He could not, indeed, conceive it possible for any Pro te;tant conscientiously to take such alt oath. Accord ing to his judgment, as he stated to the House three years ago, the Catholic might have taken the same oath as the Protestant. But now two different oaths were to be adtuinistererl; that to the Catholic con taining a particular explanation, while the old oath was to remain as to the Protestant. He implored the House to consider this subject for its own sake, as well as for that of the country at large. All he asked was that to which his Learned Friend who brought for ward the Bill said he had no objection, and which the late Per. Grattan stated ought to be done, namely, to wake the oath of supremacy the same for both Catho lics and Protestants. With that view then he had to propose the omission of certain words in the oath, which proposition might, he apprehended, he brought forward stow, but if not, be should reserve it for the third reading. Sir J. NEWPORT rose to observe, that from the nature of the Honourable Gentleman's proposition, this was not the proper time to bring it forward. The SPEAKER said, that if any Amendment were proposed touching the character of the Bill, it must he re-committed, and the time for moving its re-coin s:ALA would be ou the motion that the Amendments already made should be read a second time. But the Amendment proposed by the Honourable Mem ber might be submitted after the third reading of the Bill. Mr. PEEL declared his entire concnrrrence with his Hon. Friend upon the point of requiring the Pro teatant to deny upon oath the spiritual authority of the Pope, while the Catholic was called upon to admit that authority, by the regulations to which he was to submit ; therefore, if the House should agree to the third reading of the Bill, he should feel it his duty to support his Hon. Friend's amendment. After a few words from Mr. W. Wyss and Mr. PEEL* as to the dilf.-rence between the spiritual authority of the Pope, in its doctrinal sense. and his co-active au thority with any of the constituted powers of this country. Lord CASTLEREAGH rose to deprecate any at tempt to alter the old oaths of supremacy. believing, although certain explanatory words were introduced into it in this Bill, I. order a to guard against the alarm of timid consciences among the Catholics, to make any abandonnientof it with respect to the Protestants from what it bad been fur 300 years would form a grave ob jection against the Bill elsewhere, tending very ma terially to obstruct its progress. Mr. CHOKER withdrew his proposition, giving notice of his intention to Wing it forward upon the third reading of the Bill on Monday. After a few words front Messrs. tioulbourn and Can-. sting, and Dr. Yhillintore. Mr. Croker's AtneafkuMat was put merely with a view to have it inserted In the rotes. ' - The Honourable Mr. HUTCHINSON said lie-oa derstood. that the Pope bad eOloiood the Catholic The clause inserted in the Iris respecting 'atham, and prohibiting them from voting at parish vestries, was introduced into the Bill. Sir J. NEWPORT proposed three clauses. The first, to empower the King or the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, upon a certificate signed by any Privy . Cornwelllor, to dispense (if his Majesty or his Ex cellency shall think tit) with the previous residence required by the Bill to render any Catholic clevgy man eligible to the office of Bishop or Dean ; the second, to authorise the Protestant Comtnissiesrers to be appointed under the Bill, to pr:iceed in the execution of the object of the Commission, in the absence of the Catholic Commissioner, in case such Commissioner, being proved to have been duly sum moned, shall neglect to attend at the time and place appointed ; the third, to authorise the Protestant Coremissioners, on such the absence of the Catholic Commission, to suminott any power in Great Britain or Ireland, exercising episcopal functions, and re quiring him to examine the communication laid before them, to testify npou oath whether such tosumuni cation be of a conscieotions 'Ware. These clauses were agreed to. PROVISION FOR THE CATHOLIC CLERGY. Mr. CROKER rose to propose a clause to which be had already called the attention of the Home, with regard to a provision for the Catholic Clergy. From the manner in which this proposition was re ceived, when he first took occasion to mention it, be was led to conclude that its principle was gene rally approved by the Home. His Learned Friend who had brought furwaril the Bill before the House, had, no doubt, objected to his proposition, not upon the ground of principle, but of tiuse and expediency —that is, according to his Learned Friend's opinion, he had not selected the proper time in the first in stance for submitting the measure. Therefore, he yielded to his Learned Friend's objections, which were partly jocular ansi partly serious, and was induced to waive Isis impose until the present moment, when he apprehended no consideration of time could be pressed against his views. On the ground of expediency, it was argued by the Learned Proposer of this Bill, that a measure of this nature should proceed from the Government. But to such. an opinion he could by no means subscribe; for by what constitutional rule could it be maintained that agrant of money should originate any where but in that House, or he voted by any other power than that of the Parliament? I Any Government, indeed, which would attempt topsail money witboot such preview consent, would act mirma stituteaually, nod become liable to impeachment. But to what (immanent was it meant to refer for such a grant as that which lie proposed ? Why, to a Govern ment divided against itself, scarcely two Members of which were ad ideas upon this point respecting the Ca tholics.—That it would belong to Government to consi der the extent and apportion the distribution of the mo ney to which his motion referred he was wady to admit; but although it would be for Uoveruntent to execute, it was not for Goveramenttobegin such a measure. Again it was urged upon the score of expediency, that before a measure of this notate was submitted to the Hone*, it would be right to consult the Catliorre Bishops and Clergy of Ireland whether they were willing to accept such an allowance. But if the. Clergy, upon being so consulted, should express a wish far the proposed grant, what must be the consequence to the conteututent and peace of I reland.shoithi the hopes of the Clergy be dashed by the disdain of Parliament from the proposition. He bail felt it his duty; before he celled the attention of the House to this measure, to examine it in all its details, and the result was a firm conviction upon Isis mind, that a most important good could be done at a very paltry expence. The details which lie hail collected, he had embodied into a Bill, which lie hoped would he found to answer the object which hie inotion had in view.— Another objection stated to his proposition by the Learned Mover of the Bill hrfore the House, was that the adoption of that proposition might serve to en danger the success of alio Bill. But how was that success to be endangered ? Will danger to he appre hended from the clamour of Dr. Milner, or those who co-operated with him ? How strange, that those who assumed the lofty tone and dignified attitude of wise Statesmen, by expressing their resolution to do jus tice by conceding to the claims of the Catholic mel sa tisfying the scruples of the Protestant, without any re gard to the clamour of indiei4lnale, should yet turn round upon him, and depercate the measure which he proposed, while confessedly convinced of its justice, merely from an apprehension that its adoption might excite the clamour of individuals. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Plunkett) had described this measure as one which was to put an end to the long train of dis sentious, which had distracted !rebind—which was to extinguish the fiatises, which might he almost com pared to the extinguishable times which we heard of in ancient story ; and how was the House going to make the final compact ? Why, it was about to leave one of the most important subjects out of the Treaty, and to postpone to future consideration a qttestioe upon which the success of the measure must material ly depend. By mei) a proceeding dissention would be kept alive ; and after they considered themselves safely arrived in port, they would be otter more obliged to put to sea. If he were asked to state the quarter' from which danger had been always most apprehend ed, the Statute Book would answer for him. The first traces of the Penal Code were to he tracked in the blood of the Clergy. The very first Penal Statute for suppressing disloyalty was levelled not at the laity, but at the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland. — It was the Catholic Priesthood who had been the real objects of apprehension, for no man could look with serious alarm to the admission into Parliament of such men as the Dttke of Norfolk and Lord Arundel. He should have considered him self to be guilty of a neglect of ditty, if he had sot endeavoured to procnre the assent of the House to the principle of' making ae adequate provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy. With regard to the extent of that provision, he thought it should be liberal enough to enable them to maintain themselves with a suitable degree of respectability. At the same time it ought not, in his opinion, be so large as to seeder them wholly independent of their flocks. The pria ciple upon which the Legislature ought to proceed, should be to afford a suitable maintenance, leaving it to the flocks of the Catholic Priesthood to make that maintenance a state of affinonee and ease. The Hon. Member concluded by moring,that a clause be brought up, recognising the expediency of the principle of mak* a provision for the Catholic Priesthood, and enabling the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland touppoint lire into the state of the several of Ireland with a view te. ouch AOH said, he rose to express a very strong doubt as to the propriety of the coarse which his Honourable Friend was pursuing, and he was persuaded his Honourable Friend would readily believe that his (lord Castlereagh's) repugnance to that course arose neither front a want of respect for him, nor from a want of common feeling with him as to the great importance of his proposition. No inili vidual could feel wore deeply than himself the expe diency of following up the Bills before the House, in the event of their meeting the sanction of the Legis lature, by some such 11Wa‘itte as that %hick his Ho nourable Friend was desirous of effecting ; but the question was, whether this was the proper momeot for proposing it ? He (Lord C.) bad no doubt that if the subject were brought forward at a seasonable time. and accompanied by the proper explanations, it would n4.t only receive the sanction of the House, but meet with that sort of general concurrence, which would afford the best pledge to the Catholic Clergy of the desire of Parliament to contribute to their comfort. The motion of his Honourable Friend was inadequate to the object which lie was desirous of accomplishing, for it could only be rendered effective through a reeommentlation from the Crown. If the clause proposed to lie brought up were now agreed to, the measure could not be final; it must necessarily come back to Parliament, dor they would still have to determine the scale of expenditure. Ss far, therefore, from forwarding the object which he had in view, the proposition of his Honourable Friend would have the effect of placing the measure in a re trogade position. There was another ground upon which he objected to the solution of his Hononrable Friend. He tbnnht the measure would come inure properly as a marl; of grace and favour from the Crown, for he lsv no means admitted that the Catholic Clergy hail any right or claim to a provision from the State. They had no more title than that branch of the Church of Scotland established in !reboil, to which such a provision hail been granted eitlo great advantage, but 'wilier the Presbyterian nor the Ca tholic Clergy had any right or claim upon the State. Under these circumstances, he trusted his Honourable Friend would consent to leave the question in a state of amicab:o repose, and nut press it for a division at a time when he might divide some of the best friends of the measure. If his Honourable Friend's motion were agreed to at this time, it might be considered as a sort of bribe held out to the Catholic Clergy, and he (Lord C.) lowed it to that respectable bode to declaro, that when he was authorised under Lord Sidniouth's administration in ISOS, to comma ' nicate to them that it was in the contemplation of Go vernment to make a similar proposition in their be half to Parliament, they stated in the most respectful, and at the same time in the most disinterested and de licate manner, that they could not, consistently with their feelings of dirty and honour, receive such a mark of grace atol /scone at that moment. lie should oppose the b.inging up of the clause upon the grounds which he had stated to the House. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said he was not disposed to enter upon this moot important and delicate sub. jeet at that moment, and he deprecated the introduc tion of the measure at any time without a perfect un derstanding between the Catholic Clergy and the Do verement. Mr. CHOKER said, drat the material port of his object bad been accomplished, by the manner in which Iris Noble Friend had received Iris proposition. He begged the House to observe, that leis Majesty's Bo vernsuent concurred in the expediency of such a measure as it was the object of his clause to effect ; under these circumstances he had no hesitation in withdrawing his motion. Lord CASTLEREAGH hewed to observe, that he had not rime down prepared to state the copinioso Of his Majestv'shiorernment. He had stated his own view of the subject, but he wished It to be understood that he was not authorised to repress any 'plosion on the part of his Majesty's tiovernereiß. The motion was then withdrawn. The Report of the Bill wa s brought up, and several verbal amendments were agreed to. Mr. CUFFS propose 4 as an Amendment the addi tion of the words " all other endowed schools and colleges," after the word " foundations," in the clause for excluding Catholic Professors, which, after some conversation between Mr. Ember, Sir J. Newport, Mr. Wynn. and Mr. C. Hutchinson was agreed to. Upon the motion of Sir .1. NEWPORT, the Bill, with the Amendments, was then ordered to be read a third time on Monday, and to he printed. TIMRER TRADE. On the motion of Mr. WALLACE, the House re solved itself into a Committee on the Timber Duties Acts. Mr. WALLACE then rove and stated, that be had some Resolutions to move, founded on the Special Re port relative to the Duties on Timber, made by the Committee on Foreign Trade. The Right Hen. lien datum said, that report contained not only the sub- stance of the Resolutions which he intended to move, but nearly all the informitioo upon the subject which be wished the Howe to take into its consideration. Before the year 15119, the supply of Timber from the Baltic had been very considerehie ; after that time, a protection had been given to importation from our North American Colonies, which had rapidly increased since, and it was evident, that in the coarse of nn very long time, if the present system continued, the latter trade would become completely predominant, and perhaps destroy the other altogether. Ile then en tered into a detailed calcula!i , m, on the authority of the Report, to 'thew the respective increase and duress* which had taken place in the quantities of Timber imported front the Baltic and our Colonies. the result of which established the fact of the dispeoportionate decrease of the forcer. Thc Right Honourable Weidman then proceeded to say. that whatever protection was due to our Colonies, and he was willing to grant that a great protection was du.. to them, yet to sacrifice the l imit principles of coin metes, and the most valuable Interests of the countrv. in a way which could not fail to Inflamer prejtisfieiali) our Continental relations, was neither essential to the protection of our Colonies, nor justice with regard t., ear general interests, nor sonnd policy in reference to the Northern Countries of Burope. This state 0 . things amid not but be injurious. nor could it be other wins when the duties were exorbitant, and the proms dens 'menials. This gave rise to very considerabb diesitistnetion in the Northern Countries, and material!) S he di.) not look n ot ; m ff e r a e s t u t le which that he quarter had t our opo e° , • 1 1 in inertia. re latio ns. pounds iw rted ° n l or a s l i n i of so much actual importance to either Russia mph sin in the value of timber exported, as po li es of tt P voice ee than price o o n f e w h:n i ulred anli th tul ou ll s v an e d x o f those countrie s to (treat Britain, would not " e 1 le m e t hed re gird it has having a very important result up tat ; il of our manufactures ; but lie considered it o th e f tthe gre a t est moment, as being the first step in receding from a se a tent detrimental to one commercial relations, and t h e first step towards conciliating those fo • reign Powers, without whose feelings being in one favour. the aria. lions of mercantile intercourse w hi c h we h a d with , them could never be securely and permanently Wished. lie then went on to remark rata. upon the .e4i f rate of duty upon the Baltic timbes, which he to be t ionble the prime cost, anti equal to a laxb stated of million sterling. In his subsequent iservati I • u .uns h e expressed himself in so low a tone of 'nice, that %f• could only at intervals catch his meaning. H e peatel, that this enormous duty was injurious to use general and extensive interests, while the system leas calculated only for the sole and ratios' • ute be se s t of those connected with the Colonies,the or SI' op .o werr . who conveyed the Timber f.oue our American depe n. den ies. lie then tonehed upon the history and progress of the Ditties, and said they commenced in ls itt, torn, from the line of policy pursued II France , it app eare d probable that we should be prevented from w e i r , iug supplies from the North of Eam p s . The protectiog duty the. put on was 2 1 . I L v e l d % " addition of 25 per cent. in the Cocoas. le eras said this thsty ought to continue, be ta s* i t pledged the faith of Parliateent, in order to Mime the colonist to vest his capital i is the trade, but he theeekt the faithof Parliament had been redeemed by the protection hitherto given to the capitalist, who teeter that is lace ment engaged in the trade originally. lint, hemeee r that anions,' of duty was not laid on fur the purpose of pm fiction, part of it was for revenue; now he did sat mesa to interfere with the former part of the duty ;it eels only so smelt of it as was laid on for the sake nt errant, that hie measure nteant to effect, amyl that part, he we stward, Varliatuent haul the power to alter or tepee'. He hal beard a curious orpiment on this subject, whirl ' wesst to say that Parliausent had no power, even ever this, hecanse the Act of 1816 had math it perpetual ; belie Parliamentary language, the making an Act perpeote, only meant that it was not to expire as a given time ssi no nem whit, was acquainted with that hemp! ;este suppose that it implied any thing like theabseace of thst discretionary power which Parliament bad to slier w repeal its own acts The question then wss,whether the existing duties should be altered, and to what teem? The effect of the duty on Baltic timber was to introdwe from the colonies animunense excess ; he believed that so rem exceeded the annual consumption by 101,111.10 leads. i'he merchant who would regulate his proceedingsbythe real demand, was thereby driven out of the anwhetueet the trade was in consetetence carried on by colsoissand shipowners. It then became a question of in t= and the ship-owners Weft' the only class of persons who gave determined opposition to ma= to repeal or modify the duties. flie Right' I tientleman then peoreeilea to answer the gronnded upon the employment necessarily civialrila trade with thee Colonies to our shipping atul sailers. Iv to the shipping, it was the worst in the whole merchant service I in fact, ships that were good fur nothing el.* were employed there awl it was said, that any thief that could swim would do for it ; and with respect Is the sailors, they were not the only perste* which tio ' change from peace to war had put out of resploymear. ire If our ships were be sail in large fleets, merely to g ensployment to sailors without any 'salami obiert is view, it would he as soutul policy to agree to a "'ora tion to employ the arinottreas of itsiriniagham is meting i muskets as in war, at a time of prof ound peace. Ast the danger to be apprehended to our Navy, in cases( the breaking out of a new war, its case of a diminutive of the number of oor seamen, there was no grimed limit, as we had 311,11610 more employed than in the year 1711. which was the year preceding the timed* the greatest exertion which we had ever made at sea. ite could so ver believe that the country was to be served by 'seri. tieing one interest to another ; our iint,y tee ms of revs erring our commercial greatness was by the opeuing of new channels fur trade, but these conlif not be most unless we hid aside all narrow and restrictiverhel with regard to our intercourse with foreign native% and acted on the broad, the wise and liberal principle of mutual encouragement, and reciprocal advantage• at denied that there was any ground for the allegation, that if the trade with the northern nations was increased, we should not come in for our full share. He likerrie sheered the decrease which bad taken place is the (s -ports of our tuannfactuures to the countries of the Baltic since the imposition of the heavy duties oa dabs, while the increase to the Colonies bad been very slight. He then went on to say, that the proportion of weed from the Colonies ought not to exeeel more thee tee thirds. el the manor' coumunption, and referred hi , the evidenee of various persons on the ' object allrtie g The the protecting ditty, as contained in th e Re p ot t Honourable .Member proceeded to state the part.traaa reasons upon which the Resolutions were growater led; but from the occasional falling of his voice, the gre part of his observations were lust in the Winery. hear not his intention that the plan now proposed shwa Is viewed as a permanent measure, it was only a W. re' wards • better sod more lasting system (HearilliV M i i The Hon. ember entered into a detail of the duties; hut from the reaso ns already menti with w ere totally unable to follow him. Ile concluds d waving the following Resolution :—" That tile ?resell Duties and Customs on Timb er do cease, a nd that * following Duties and Drawbacks be substtt • Med thereof. Tke Question having been so put — Lord ALTHORP entered into a review of the C . *: nada Trade, which be d escribed as operating is e shape of an immense tax upon this country, kept aim_ no other purpose titan that of working ships that slerr i rotten anti unlit for any other service. We a mdaf !r him to suggest the propriety of imposing a dory el on Baltic. and Ws. on Canada Timber, and of the Duty upon Deals by cultic measurement, i nstead by mere length as at present. Mr. MARRYAT expressed hinwetf at a Nws to why the colonial and shipping interests slemslJ Dot on the same protection which was afforded to the lean and other interests of this Conntry. It was be that without such protection they could ea t e r ist cessful competition with all the shipping inte.oe, Europe.it proper litre of policy for this L 72 .1 •teuttre i ii to adopt towards other countries was that o f j reciprocity in trade, not liberality, for it was to . het .1. "; that if they relied upo n the latter systems slung. `7 O would be disappointed to the expectation of t e ouduct from other countri es towards thews. He theat s.e ; enagi a duty of les. on American timber w ould be be lima leg with the evidence , thoug h beyond that , t o. But if the Resolutions ;humid a 555100 tlar.; oe r if a Hill, he should mo st decidedly ° more the re do of the duty on Baltic timber. CIYI Th e CHANCELLOR of the ENCHFA t ie hope, that the saggestisstis of his Right most- n r;;; ( • - s i tad of the Noble Lord , would lead to • 11_,,„1 K stiev. lie recouttuended, as the. seder r ert7 he , .course, to agree to the Hatlolutions, us * THE STA - N. p er to a Clergy of the United "ingdo . in any oemmuniea- Pousilissioatr.s o n ts inqui 1 r T. L.) dew which they Might make to him, to abstale frees eeelesiasdad that sphit. al? temporal and political reflections. provision. -* art,. A.... inserted in the Irish Act respecting the Lord CASTLERE.I . . I rw i• ro • of mi I It It t re I, It. be pi 1 1 1 It kr re b : P rill • ' led Cr IN Pi et owe Poi Ott_ pis oak RI a t 100. e rert. tie righ t isto l I r 4 frOl i 1104