The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-05-22 00:00:00

I!! Al l.l T Wf , rwilpf 1\ N. The Ilonouratie Gentleman thee proposed to reduce this sum. Mr. WARD said, when this subject bad been be fore discussed in the House, it had heel generally agreed that frmn the galore of the artillery force, i. was better to discharge gunners and keep the officers, whom it respired the greater expense of time as well as money to form. In this opinion the Committee of Finance concurred. The saving would not he so great by the reduction as the Honourable Gentleman imagined, as the Colonel Commandants by the regu lations of the service retired on full pay, only without staff allowance. Mr. HUME was of opinion that the artillery could not now be kept in practice, and therefore, considering it only a question of expense, thought the reduction be had recommended might he effected. Sir H. 11ARD1NOE said, the slowness of promotion, which wss the vice of the artillery service e Amen d dme, woul be in creased by the measure proposed in hnt. The slowness of promotion was such that it was found in the Peninsular War, that the superior officers bad not bodily strength to velure a campaignooo, so tha s,t the-whole of the Artillery , 7,000 men, and 6, horse was com manded by Lieutemint-Colonel Dixon, then and now a Captain in the Artillery. Lientesant-Colonel Sir G. Wood commanded the Artillery at Waterloo, and was the oldest officer in the field, though only a Lieuteuaut- Colonel. Mr. BENNET said, one proposal of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume), viz. the dividing of the pluralities enjoyed by the superior officers, would do away with the nos thief of the slow promotion. Mr. WARD said, that if the Artillery in the new Colo nies and Garrisons were deducted, the presents umber of Artillerymen would not exceed those iu 1792 y 'sore than 462, of which 167 were officers. Mr. 1111:81F. said, he did nut propose to reduce men, but officers. The Committee divided—For the Amendment 16 ; against it 43--Majority 27. The Resolution was a g reed to, as was one of 3012/. for Horse Artillery, and one of 17,5191. for Artillery Drivers. After a few words between Mr. Hums and Mr. WARD, Mr. WARD then proposed the grant of 6,7001. for the maintenance of the Medical Establishment of the Ord nance. Mr. HUME objected to the increased expense for the Medical Establi.lonent. They had e t anguiented ninefold since 1792. lie complained of the salaries of certain individuals, and especially . of the office of the Director-General, who enjoyed an income of 1,095/. Mr. N. W A RD, said, in 1792, there was no Medical Establishment connected with the Ordnance that de served so to be called. It was then the custom to have recourse to practitioners in various parts of time country. This occasionsl a considerable expense, net mere in pounds, s hillings, and pence, but in efficiency. tie then explained and defended the various arrangements of the establishment. Mr. HUME renewed his objections to the grant, and moved as all amendment, that 3,772/. should be taken trove the grant proposed. Sir U. BURGH eomplained of the amount of the re duction proposed by the Hun tientleuiss. If a reduc tion of 3,0001. were made from 6,0001• be did not know hew they should get on at all. Sir .1:1'011KE raid they might get rid of the Direc tor-General. The Committee divided—For the Amendment 18 ; Against it 47 —Majority V. A sum of 6,610/.penwse s of t the pr C o ivil posed Officers, to he g Professo ra ntedrs, for defraying the ex SO Masters of the Royal Military tollege at Woolwich. Mr. 11UNty. cousplaiimed that the Establishment of Cadets was notch too numerous, as out of every 150 ad mitted, only thirty could be beriefitted by commission,. and thus each Officer in the service educated at this College, would cost the country 1,7501. He was aware that the very best ar rangements relative to the bestow ing coussitis,ioes upon these Cadets, had been ma by the Mager-eieueral ; arrangements w hich oughtde to be taken as aa example b the army. But there could be only nine a y ppointed in a year, whereas thirty-seven were annually dismissed. lie considered this to be holding out expectatons never to bee eaelised, and c reating an nneeessaryi expense. Beforb moved an amendment to this reselution, he wished to bear what explanation would he given upon this point. Sir U. BURGH explained the regulations respecting the appointment of the Cadets. Time utmost economy was 0-burst.' in the establishment, and the nu th m e er bers had already b een reduced from 10 t o 150. By rangeinents which had been made by the blaster -Gene ral, they would be still farther reduced in a few years to 100. Mr. HUNIE repeated the objections he bad before urged against the e xtent of the establishment t one , ha and m oved an amendment for reducing the granlf substitutin if the sum of 3.3l'shat 1. for 6,610/. had been Mr. WARD stated, t every means used to facilitate the appointment of Cadets to com missions. As by the p resent regulations, Lieutenants were returned to full pay, the Cadets succeeded the* on the half vay, and thus double the number of com missions were available to theta, than previous h. this arrangement. Mr. 11CM E was still of opinion lb .t there were mo re young men e ducate I than could possibly come iuto the service of the country, and the expense was consequently a waste of the public money. He should therefore press his amendment. After a few other observations from Mr. Wane, Mr. BIRPIAL. Sir 11. HARDING, Sir U. HURON, Hems, anii MT. 0. BSIMILT. the C ORMittee d6ivided. For the Ansecdmen t, 20 ;-Against it, 3 r--Ma jority in favour of the original Resolution, 43. Time next Resolution was a grant of 14361. to be c fees paid to the Exhequer and to the TTO* Sar y fet on the amount of the Ordnance Estimates of they . Mr. BERNAL asked for some isplimatims lug the fees se be th us p rovided for. ..I .. IM C • ' t Mr. WARD said a few words across the table, were not audible in the Gallery. Sir U. LONG observed, that, as the law now em 1 selmitl the persons who claim ed these fees possessed th by vested right. Sir H. PARN ELL made some observation relative to the fees in the Audit Office. The CHANCELIDR of the EXCHEQUER said that the fires in question were very different from the fees payable upon the credit accounts. 1 1 Sir J. NEWPORT said, that all fees ought to be ex ' tinguithed as soon as possible. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex plained. Mr. HUMS wished to ask when the returns foilwhieh he had moved, relating to this subject, were likely to be before the House. He was quite convince& that the *otter the whole system of fees was done away, and the for the despalitcihf officers inslPliediandtfollerbillsbeeltabli lirlilenitei r aters. . . Sir C. LONO said the Hos. Gent. were em sf i ll Y st rg two things that were distinctly differentl namely, he 4. 39 n k ee .l :se x 4 r i t e r . 4o l' e sel f .. fees upon passing accounts in the Exchequer, and f.• S u"Snirilsis."PinAglinNwEna, explained.—The Resolution wee then agreed to. the The al :e n : e t o ß f t-.4 E o x l ; u 7 t im io r n 4 L o as rle fo s r fe a r t tr e a o nt rd o n f a Mr. HUME.—" Is this vote for the w dietaries, including expenses of repairs abroad, th e p ow . der mills, and every thing?" Mr. WARD.—" It is." Mr. HUME should oppose the vote on se teen grounds, that he did not know where to begin. The lion. Member first complained of the arrangesesn ~, the Colonial Estimates on the papers, and then attarke4 the sum under the bead of repairs, which, he said, ,„,, i applied to other purposes. He wished to ask, u t n . t h, 7 any proposals heel been made to tiovernment to frrre troops across the Tilbury Fort passage ?—ite bedi ,; . stood that such proposals had been made, aid t h at saving of six or 7tlol. a year would serene to th e sa w: if they had been accepted. With respect tot hefta;‘,; Mills at Feversham and Waltham Matey, this w a s t i,„ third year in which he had called the attention 0 0,, Parliament to those extravagant estahlsliments. TI M , was powder enough in store to last for the nest 2 5 year s, therefore there could be no necessity for keepior , h p a single mill. At present they were supported at , mons t ro us e xpenditure. All the officers connected wits them lived en prince. This mode of living was *time completely taken. After some observations upon th e manner in which old stores were disposed oi, and sps o t h e pay of the train department, the lion. Member ta w esothatitrbed his ee ote i o n n iel g i li t t io to o b of e o r p e po dut s • i ed og a i t t l . east one-thirCasa Mr. WARD, in explanation, stated that the ass fier repairs were not fur new works but fur works sea. time begun ; also that the present expenses fort!. Colonies were less than in 1792. He thought ala that the present arrrangement of the estimates, whirr the items were under separate heads, was better tha3 the plan proposed by the Honourable Member. H e I observed, that be was not surprised that the Her. Member wished the removal of the powder establi,l,- went of Feversham, Lc., as that idea had tittered his (Mr. Ward's) imagination three years age; but, on his going down to Fevershatu, he fesei,, upon exansinstion, that the expense of maws' would be actually greater than that fur keeping their in their present state for several years. He defeoikal the Field Train on lire ground of its being loader the command of an old officer of eighty, who had perform. e'l meritorious services. Sir W. CONCILEVE entered into a detailed stilt. unlit of the origin and history of the Powder Ran► liniments, and stated that at the beginning of the kat. rican war, the powder was furnished by contrast% which was a more expensive and uncertain modelle that at present p ursued, and which Oovertitmest• ( e nabled to act upon, by having enlarged the establi. scents at Feversham, and purchased the winks atilt thaw, which rendered them independent of the wa let t rac tors. The consequence, he contended, to ' great and important saving to the public. Mr. BERNAL observed that the Hommrable Clerk of the Ordnance bad not answered all the objeetien oldie Hon. Member Or. Hume), sad argued thst ; h stood more la Nod of t r i e s g e ruelamanuts beiger mutely irregular and confused. He object, home lith Departmentan t h e Ord n a w n h e i e c into general details. ral item' as extravagant, but thought it masieself __ to enter 81r. WARD explained. After a few words from Mr. Hume, Sir W. Court , Mr. D. (Albert, and Mr. Bennet, the Counnietse d- Tided as follows For the Resolution..... 911 Against it ...................... of Majority.. • ..... --48 The nest Resolution was 2132/. for services ors. vided for in the vote for 1320. The Resoluties r agreed to. 1 he next was 111,8371. for the Ordnance lreland.—Mr. HUME moved a reduction an Amendment. M. WARD opposed It. Sir H. PARNELL supported it. After a few words from Mr. WARD. divided, For the Amendment .......... Against it ..... .M a jority.. • • The original Resolution was then pay Several other Resolutions were then tied, after which the Chairman reported , obtained leave to sit again on Wednesday, having resumed, Mr. ARBUTHNOT gave notice bring forward the Army Estraordinaries IRISH REVENUE. Sir JOHN NEWPORT asked if ties of his Majesty's Government missionen to collect the revenue in no t object to Government appointit e lopers. He thoug ht if they were much good might be done. but if proper persons, the greatest ww n e l . :i t e l d ir l d : CI a ri se.H tNCIL L 0 R of the E'. that It was his inteotion to Ave fee ~ palnetneot of the comtvittee alluded to by two . Member, at the same time, due care wield leteir° IM select proper persons for the purposee.a roods The other orders of the day were br a and the House adjourned at one o'clock. Me v '"""..---z----" .. " ".".-- 'AUCTION OF AN A Lossiss.trs tog gall Wano....—Yesterday a Wardniote trio beldst die 4 Church of ht. Nicholas Vole Abbey, for the __,,i an Alderman for the Ward of Queenbitae, te M i s r. SITIVat. DOINOitiC, resigned. —Mr. Adolphe. .. Holland attended as Counsel in an d of Mt. V eif at t a h :n p a P ed g e n U M e L o d r et . t A s:a l e t on t l n v lrt a a S r g r d e : r e ! eete;!inci o'clock c. i nWkMarshals, ee n Lordd ro p ) e i irtilirda:::allis ,i. a r a taciat I i 1 t a . wi Rouse proposed Mr. en a bles, who was sesam e - ~ ;i Mr. Caller, of Quoenhithe. Mr. Dirty (hil lrictr i Mr. Cape). who was seconded bother . Co* OA I ir valuesr C . C. : I:o:fahey fir.a9 e t the 1 of i t l t t. d ies i d ne :at andt s r . ic n . d ii tni :ne:Es de_ Ot ro s si Flail .0 7. wiecil 00 : 0 nation, sod a show of hands taken, whic.h...74700 a midst loot cheering to be io Woo in. aa..... 1 .10 • b l by a consii table ma,j,ority. _ . A poll . Wlta_Lle."""-oeot . I , half of Mr. Gapel, i hetpolling. Pelling• 117;:rigii slowly, as each vote underwent the . _ ,10 and effeminate of r e e l were h•td slirifieThir tested vote* st great leogth. A.iter: 0 : 1 0. fre l l ling the numbers we re, lor Alf. v 4'...1114411ty 1. ttestnat. -- taste 'mice al on of 1,5301. at the Casio to 3 9i put and eaniet e n put la .ted proereso s d ni . Ths s" that be woe larks N Fi** i t was do' to aPiol lt k i o ik I relaaa. Ling seek Ot t * properir the C os ' t e st in :XCHN I.IIIII St 11.1, imifftA I'jlE~~ lake lake the liberty of proposing a Resolution. 'The lien he alluded to, was a sum of 5,90 0 /. fur the repair 0; fortifications, &c. in the island of Barhadoes. Non. . the reason of his objecting to this vote was, that t was a fund supplied b y that We as well as mo ose to sale all the Leeward I slands for the repress purp Iseeping in repair these fortifications, and until lo knew that the fund was properly administered accord nag to the intention of those that granted it, be could not consent to vote away the public tnoney of this country for any such purpose. As a proof of the ex istence of this fund. and of its nature being as he bad stated, he would only refer to the Journals of the House.--(The Hon. Member accordingly directed io thns e Clerk of the Hous e to read from the Journals petit presented from certain individuals in the years 1663 and 1702, praying the interposition of the House to saute the proceeds of a duty of 41 per cent. on the im posts of the island to be applied, as originally intended, to pair of tbe fortifications and other works tbe re or tbe defence of tbe island.) --These extracts er ected f having been read. the Hon. Member proceeded to ob serve, that there was sufficient proof on the Journals of the House of the original intention of those who granted this fund being as he had stated ; and he bad reason to believe that instead of its being appropri ated as it ought to be, it was totally absorbed by the Crown, and dispensed in the support of a number of placemen and pensioners. This fund be knew was diaposed of by distribution amongst many Lords and Ladies in the country, and Gentlemen in that House, and he knew. therefore, that be should have the voles of many in that House who held these funds in their hands against his motion. 'ibis he did not doubt, and indeed he wished to point out to the House that almost all the late votes on the Estimates had been carried by the official men alone in that House. This was a pretty state for them to be in, when all the public money was voted away by those gentlemen, so voted, and who were int erested in its beiog e mployed as it was. The Honourab le Member r aid a high encomium on (t h e. labours labours o to f theex lion. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Ilee,) pose the abuse! in the expenditure of the public money, and concluded by moving the following ltesolutions as an Amendment :—" That it appears to this House, by the Ordnance F.stiinates f 1 r the present year, that there is a charge of 5909/. for repairs of fortificationa and other military works in the island of Ilarbadoes ; and as it also appears by reference to the Journals of the House that there is a certain sum collected out of the revenues of that island for the purpose of defrayi that ng tile repairs of the p ublic buildings, forts, Lc. of i land, it is the opinion of the House that it can su not, c onsistently with its duty, vote the said mof 5900/. till it is satisfied that this tax has been faith folly applied and found inadequate.' Before the question was put from the Chair, a mes sage from the Lords was received, acquainting the Haase of their Lordships' assent to several Road Bills. The question having been put, Sir C. LON° said, that be could not conceive the ll'oise would he induced to accede to the pro lion to positit the the lion. Member fur Appl.eby, in opposi c Aahlished practice of Parliament with reference to tile fund for the last century. 'The grant of this fund c as e , or made for his Majesty, his heirs, and successors for ever ; and if ever there was money v liieh ought to be indisputably regarded as belonging to the permanent revenue of the Crown, it was the t w oiev derived fr.iiii that source. There certainly was t ...outill for a claim on the part of the island of Bar -I,,ioes alone to the effect stated by the lion. Mem- Ler ; but if he would look at the circumstance under which that claim made on the OCCaSiOlli bewouhad ld find di nted the attention of the Haase to, lie ti at the case bad greatly altered with the times. Since these periods Baradoes had n mde a naval e.pot, and its defence we b been provided for, t a wsich end Peitient grants of money bad been made by this coun tr-. The manner in which this fund was at present arplied had been recognized over and over again by of Parliament; a nd, in the year 1797, a Committee t'..at House had declared that the fun.' was applicable manner as the King s hould think fit. The li M et uber said, that its sole purpose was to re p air on. suc firtification s ; yet ou one of th e occasions quoted by the lien. Member, the address of that Housse fun to the Cow" prayed h is Ma j est y so to apply those ds, after paying the Earl of Kinnoul his a nnuity out of it. 'lhere had not been a Lawyer of eminence fo r t the l ase t eotury who had not given it as his opinio hat the vegeta application of it was legal. For these reasons he should oppose the amendment. Sir F. BURDETT maintained that it never could Lave been the intention of those who granted this fund for the repairs of the fortifications in the West India islands, that it should be applied to the corrup• . lion of Members of that House. It was uhado ar existed i •gument ir f av our of such an application, that it for a century; and if the fund were in the control of ti.e Crown. it was like all other money so situated, is. tended for the benefit and not the detriment of the public ; and when Parliament saw that the Crown had ether resources than it gave, it would be backward to agree in all the g rants propoard for that purpose. DOU LBURN cont e nd that the fund was 1111. criatly at the disposal of the CTOWII, and whatever the Hon. Baronet might think of the manner iu which it aas expended, the characters of those who received pcnsians from it, repelled Imputation. Mr. MONCK said, it was clear that, even if the ap -I,;ication of the funds collected from the others of the Leeward Islands were not laid down by Act of Par liament, it was granted for a national purpose, and sot for the support of pensioners in that House. 'The House then divided :--For the Amendment, 58.—Agai ust it, 86.—Majority, 28. When strangers were re-admitted, the House was in a Committee. •Mr. R. WARD moved a grant of 94,3001. to cover tile balance of the pay due to the Royal Brigade of Artillery. THE CORONATION. Mr. MONO , : wished to ask the Hon. Oentlensan ' opposite a question on the subject of the Coronation. lie wished for information on a matter relative to it, ' which every one interested for the Royal Family, ani looking up to them with that regard which be sits ' certly Telt, must consider of some importance at the present moment. Every person so feeling, must see with eittetitst repugnance, nay sl i g ht offered to so y member et the Royal Family, and most especially . complain of the omieston of any established usage which went to give peculiar dignity to one member til if the R o y al Pesf It would hr ie t he recollection .1 every me mber of that noose, that in the ctinrse of t he last session of Parlia tue nt, • a solo bail been voted for the Coron believed one hun dred thousand pounds had been T oted for . that purpose. When that grant was agreed to by the don e e, it was tinder eirentiMances very iliiTerent from those of the preactit day. It was then very doubtful w hether the Queen would ever return to this country, and it was therefore not thought in to consider at that time what arrangement in the event of her coming woud br pr 44 44 rto he made for her. On this subje ct be h l ad now to ask two questions. The first was, w e made for t he hether any arrangements were part that Il lustrious Person might if any such s ustain in 'lce - cere on yi and the second, w h e ther, at inratigemllleetis niade, it would he necessary to call on ll t i for a new gran t in addition t o the 100,0011/. perila arcade voted on account of the Coronation? lie for one was n ot disposed to believe the rumours that he bad heard abroad, that while provision is made for securing seats for the Peeresses of England. no pro of the most Illustronioustwo P e rsonage in the country. 'lbis he men tioned as a roinotir that he hail la sard, but it was one that he could too bring himself to believe. After what hail passed in the last Session of m e n Parlit, the it cou ld not be denied that the Queell WAS as 1 Queen of this country, as the Kitig was King of it. Any vote that might he proposed to malie• suitable arrangements for her Majesty be was w confidentlarge would be well receiv ed b y the country, hoever the sum proposed might be, if the snme were well anlf d justly applied fur the Queen's accommod. lionever, the stun w!lich had been vo ted was not ill tended. too- any port of it , to be appropriaied—i the f \ c oronation festival was i n a te on d he ned r not aj to give then e new l u stre, but to thro a stigm Nlesty, h o thought that any soul of moues - that might be sa expended would he considered objectionabl, not only by the Nleuthers of that noose,lle hoped t phe by tie peole (almost utiiiersally) cut of but o Chancellor of the Exchequer would satisfy the public mind by riving smite answer to this question. The CHANCF.LIAM 4)f the EXCHEQUER did not really see how the question jest asked grew out of a proposed vote of money for the pay cf the Royal Ar tillery in a Committee of Supply. He could not see that any clear ground was laid for the question at all. Such a one would only become necessary if a lark' r sum should be asked to corer th ereses of the was Co rona tion. At present, howev, the question wholly unnecessary, as be could assure the Hon. Gen tleman that Ministers hail no intention of calling for any uew grant on itectiont of the Coronation, in the course of the pi esent Session of Parliament. Mr. MONCK thought there was nothing irrelevant in the question which lie had put to the business of a Committee of Stipply. In a Committee of Supply be had thought that Members were not o bliged to confine themselves to the subject in debate, lint were at liberty to bring forward all the charges of th e mpire. the e therefore conceive d the q uestiuti to hav e been perfec in order ; but if, from what bud fallen from the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, they were to collect that Ministers were disposed to give no information on n this snbject, lie hop ed that some Member of greater p o rtauce than himself would bring it before the House in a register motion. Mr. HUME said, the Right Hon. Gentleman had hut half answered the second question of the. Hon. Gentleman. He had stated that Ministers meant to move for no additional grant ton account of the Cur -na tion in the coarse of the present Session of Parliament. He wished to know if they had any intention of doing - so in any sobseqnent Session ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated it to be impossible for him to ray then what it might he ne cessary to do in a future Session. A that that grant of 100,0t101. had been tak en, on the supposition sum would be sufficient to cover the expenses of the Coronation. When the accounts came be made up, he could not say what the res ult mig dihng t be. a ecient Mr. BENNF.T contended, that accor to cus t o m the M e mbers of that House, before granting a supply, had a right to call for information on every subject, and to brio forward every grievance of which they had to complain. He was therefore of opinion that the questions of the Honourable G en tleman ought to he answered. Lord LONDONDERRY said, that even accor din g to the idea of the Honourable Member, asitw to theld prreo - per mode of Parliamentary proceeding, ou quire a great deal of ingenuity to bring the subject, respecting which the qitestion had beet' asked, under the definition of a grievance. lie did not know whether it would be called a grievance that the Queen should not be crowned. However, he should not affect any difficulty in answering the question put to hi s Right Honourab le Vtiend. It was clear, in point of law, that it required an act of the Crown to enabl e her Majesty to be crowned. No part of the M five could be more clear and undoubted than Oise.... He could also say, that lie and the other advisers if. the Crown were not prepared to advise the Kingl take the steits which were necessary before her Ma jesty could take part in the ceremonial. If the Hon. Oentleman, or any other Members, were prepared to revive the dying, or, he should rather say, dead em bers, of the painfel controversy in which the country was lately involved, they mast take on themselves rather tbe responsibility o f their discretion, or, he should say, indiscretion. Mr. BROUGHAM said, though it was undoubted that any matter of grievance might be, with perfect order, liscussed in a Committee of Supply, he should then abstain from entering at large into the questionstion w hich had been raise d. He only begged to against being supposed to assent to the principle that t hat the Queen had no t • right to IN crowned. T question not being regularly before him, he did not w ish to give an .pin ion one way or tb e other..--KHeer.) The conversation dropped. The Resolution ha vin g been again•read—. • Mr. HUME said, that the artillery battalions were nine in number; containing eight companies each, every company- having 60 men. By following the plan that was a do p ted before the French, wpr a great reduction m ight be made of expense without reducing the e ffi cient force Before the war the battalion% consisted of ten . companies, each of 73 men. Six battalions on this.pina woad contain 60 meet re than the present sine 'battalions, yet is the-payhe Staff Of cers there would be a saving of 16,0001. on the pay aad antipodes of the Staff ()Scene+ ,11 I 1 I i A ' !ri f 4 . , A' WON 0 Pm S J. F. 1 'Viscose° Coact", nrt. R. Nur. Doske e Viscose it• I coops 'At° B. M Marl Meson, Sari Tines it. Tri it 1 LIST M R. IN ilo .1.C.il slum , Mart Davi ham LIST Hi free W. Sir I LISI wrli ew 110' LIS I 1 5 1