The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-07-04 00:00:00

1 I i r 6 r 1 thene'llfeentitated Genii/AA - oilidkr % Ati ful effects *gels these thiega mast proisok)and he wa' confident be should not hear them talk as *Thad debt in that Horse. .0 Mr. WILBERFORCE said, that he should net. bareeronbled the House if the -Hon. Member who spoke last but one, had not chosen to speak In terms of the grossest abuse of another Society to which be had the pleasure to belong. Sure be was that if the Mee. and Learned Oentlemao knew as little of the as tute of the Constitutional Society as he did of the lift eiety for the Suppression of Vice, never did a Member creme down to that House more completely fortified is ignorance. Ile was quite sure that if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman knew what that Society bad done, he would be sorry that he bad been led to apply such language to it. The chief object of that Society was to prosecute the publishers of obscene print*. Many of these, of the most disgusting and beastly description, were circulated amongst young people. They had even been found in setiiinaries for young women, where they had been introduced fur the brutal purpose of vio lating the purity of female delicacy. The Society had prosecuted 45 of these cases, and in no one of them had they failed.—(Hear, hear, bear.) —He considered the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's allusions to the conduct of persons in the first circles of life to be no thing more than arguments to advocate the right of the lower orders to commit every violation of the Sabbath.—(Cheers and cries of " No, no.")—The Hon. Member then contended that if such practices as had been charged upon them were indulged in by the great, they did not at least commit their offences openly, and offer a public example for others to fol low. The objects of prosecution with the Society were those offences committed in the public streets. He then anded to the other purposesof the Society, and warmly defended its general conduct. With regard to the motion before the Honse, he thought there never was a time when the licentiousness of the Press had arrived at such a pitch as at the present period. It was quite insufferable. No man was safe from calumny and detraction. And so far was he from being of opinion that no man had a right to step in to assist in the appli cation of the remedy which the law provided for offences, that he held that right and the practice of it to be the very genius and spirit of our Constitution.— (Hear.)— How far the conduct of this Society had been proper or improper, be did not know, for he had not attended to it : be would frankly confess, however, that he thought it liable to much abuse. For himself, he had one or two objections to becomina Member of it. In the first place lie considered it to be his duty as a Member of Parliament , to direct the Attorney-Ueneral to prosecute where it was necessary. He would here observe, that when the state of the press was such that it endeavoured to destroy ail reverence for the autho rities of the land, and to do away with all subordination; be did not think that the Law Officers had exerted sufficient energy. There was one individual who had committed every outrage upon religion, who had recons mended rebellion and assassination, and whose crimes had drawn upon bins the visitation of the law, still con trived to receive the supplies of the poison in which he had before dealt, from London, and to vomit it forth upon the country from the prison in which he was con fined.—fle really thought this ought to be put a stop to, or there was an end to the power of the laws aho y:47r. AeelnK, as he did, this licentiousness of the be hoped the Association would go on with its proper object of prosecuting calumny and detraction, on any side, without indulging in improper political bias, whether they found it in the true John Dull or in the false John Bull. For these reasons he should vote agaiost the motion. Mr. DI NMAN was happy his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wil herforce) had addressed himself rather to the Society which had bees incidentally alluded to, than that imme diately under the consideration of the Hoene. The ob jection to the present Society was, that it must neces sarily 'moorage spies and informers, and he believed it was impossible for any ma. to act the part of either without abusing it. He never would believe that a roam who condescended to the office of a spy, sad whoa* reward depended upon his finding subjects for prosecution, would not take care to earn that reward in souse shape or other. This was the nature of all spies and informers. The Society, however, under debate was distinguishable from all ethers that had keen named to for the purpose of justifying it, and when be heard a Cabinet Minister stand up and defend tech a Society, his surprise amounted almost to indig nation. Many Societies were instituted for the defence of property, and for punishing all felonious attacks upon it. Were these political Societies ? Were these likely to ingratiate the Members with individuals in power ? Even the Society for the Suppression of Vice. though objectionable, perhaps, on a strict view of the law, had many laudable purposes for its object, and none which be more approved than those which went to check the distribution of obscene pamphlets among the young.—(Hear, heat.)--In cases where it was necessary to enforce the law, there could be no doubt of the propriety of the Attorney-Oeneral being the prosecutor ; but was the law to be enforced by a combination of men without authority, who raised powerful friends, among whose subscribers many ap pear to be anonymous, and some, he believed, were not in existence. That many of these persons were respectable in private life, be had no doubt; but mere respectability was not sufficient to justify a Society which required judgment, discretion, and inflexible public principle to prevent it from becoming mis chievous. Associations like the present could not be legal in any sense of the word, for they sought the ruin of those who published works which this Society forsooth thought proper to condemn. If it were urged that the state of the times required un usual legal interference there was the greater rea son for legal responsibility. The object of Mr Reeve's Association was to answer itepnblicen work' and ibis Society professed somewhat of it similar oh ject. He found that in their circular they proposed t. employ literary men of ability to answer the sophi. tries of seditious and blasphemous writers ; but th only written arguments he had known them to use were indictments, a species of argument powertui though rarely convincing. Conduct Ilk* this was i' fact placing the press under a censorship without authority of the law. He believed there were as man atataymeos subscriptions as he bad ever observed at! tertised in support of any object. Sow of the sit natures too might he very fanciful. He had jest pu his finger upon one—" Ogles, the Mis , :es." Nn whether this was the real subscription of some Ladle of the aaa of Ogle, or whether it was kneaded as of-s 4, he really could not sae; but it was not a all material. Another point of view In which it strati hint that Oh Society was highly dangerous was this- Suppost.it wore met by a miaow Abratiatkm. Wow k oat is the seam of time bo &riot broptoibleibilo l as i aparti aft:intuit Sttri'or Petl3 for triumph betimes' Appals strong that the my fountain of luted. Is this poiat of view be to the Society eery Merit, and he thought it was better to discourage a system which fostered Alio dt testable herd of spies mad informers ; for sure he wool ' that while they were encouraged they would sever fail Se excite offences in order that they might be paid tar detecting them.—Hear.) Kr. ATTORNEY-MINERAL said the motion might = an end to all the prosecutions compleined of t inquiring whether they were properly hied. 'Mud or mot. His Hos. and Learned Friend bad ant ventured to say that the Society in question was ills ; eat in its Constitution. If it was the Courts of Low mould have been applied to for the purrs., of pee., iMsencing its illegality ; but no proceeding bad ben taken in either of those courts for the purpose of raln ing the questioi. He could see no distinction betimes this Society and the others which have been alluded to in the way otcomparison. For the first time, however, in that House he had heard himself called the public prosecutor, and he had heard it said that be was the constitutional officer, whose duty elope it was to pro secute for political libels. Why it was a fact, that whenever he exercised this painful part of his office, he was universally assailed by the defendant as having taken onconstitutional proceedings, and be was salted why he had not left the case to the ordinary proceed ing by indictment. There was, he begged to observe, no such an office in the English law as that of pulls prosecutor. All criminal proceedings were in the name of the King ; and in the year 1792 it was stated by Lord Loughborough, the highest legal authority of the day, that Associations like that which was then in question, so far from being illegal, wets in fact highly meritorious, for it was the duty of every in dividual to enforce the law. That Society was not the first of its nature, as a Society for enforcing the King's l Proclamation against Vice had been formed so far back as the year 1757. The Attorney-General was armed with extraordinary power for the punishment of libellers, and it had generally been said by those who had suffered from it, that that power, was unconstitu tional. Now, however, it was convenient for the ar gument to put the case the other way, and to talk of the responsibility of the Attorney-General as the pro per Officer to prosecute. Undoubtedly, great respon sibility attached to the Attornev-General as a Public Officer, but no individual whom he prosecuted assoc. cessfully could maintain any action against him with• out proving express personal malice--a case sever yet known in the law. The persons responsible under this Society were those who were responsible in ordinary cases. Any individual who lied been injured by an unsuccessful prosecution could maintain his action against Mr. Murray, Mr. Sharp, and the Committee who had directed the prosecution, if malice, or the want of a probable cause, could be shewa. This gave the individual a better chance of redress than he had as against the Attorney-General. His Hoe. and Learned Friend had, to be sere, offered one of the most extraordinary arguments be bad ever heard; be had said that the Society would encourage spies tad informers, because they must trod persons to purchase the works intended for prosecution. And what was the Attorney-Oeneral ithimself colopelkd to (ha ile also sent to purchase the work objected to, or he coo' not prove the publication. Would it, foe in. stance, be said that be (the Attorney-Grew/al) hod is. cited Mr. Carlile, because be felt it necessary. to is. sore public justice to send sod purchase his works ? . (Hear, hear.)—The Hon. and Learned Member here exaniin.•d the case of King, his affidavit, and that of Orton in contradiction, and observed that althosgh he did not stand up to defend the proceedings of the Society, be thought it too much to say that the troth was entirely on one side of the questioe, sod false• hood entirely on the other. He ►egged to remark upon an observation of the Hon. Member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce.) who bad asked, was it to he endured that such a man as Mr. Carlile should he suffered to continue his dangerous pub lications while he was in prison suffering the sea tepee of the law? To what had be (the Attorney.Oene vat) been driven? He was compelled to prosecute Carlile's wife. He had done so and convicted her. He had also prosecuted the sister and the shopman, and he believed the two latter individuals had given up the shop. What more could be possibly do? It had been his misfortune to be compelled to institute more of these prosecutions than bad been instituted by any of his predecessors in the same length of time. And if his exertions failed in putting down these publications, he could not blame a Society of individuals who mere ly assisted the execution of the laws against the 'ices tiousuess of the press. Of the prosecutions themselves he knew nothing bat what appeared in public ; though as far as his observation went, there was nothing al in their course. With respect to the Society itself he had seen nothing upon which he could pronounce it to be illegal; but that was a question which could. if necessary, be readily decided by a Court of Law.— Neither could he we that any of the Members of the Association were incapacitated from serving on juries, because he observed. it was the duty of all persons to assist in the prosecution for public offences; and io principle he could see no distinction between Societies instituted to prosecute for felonies, and those raised to prosecute for libels, although it bad been thought proper to apply the epithet '•political" to the latter species of offence. Mr. BROUUHAM said, that in his opinion, a man night with petlect consistency approve of the other societies alluded to incidentally. and yet disapprove .f that under the notice of the House; as the siistinc .ion between them was as clear as possible. Some de •uses were, and ought to be, nameless. an OttSht to be prosecuted, though many a man would feel a re p tgnance at having his pause mentioned in the tame li to with such an offence, even as its prosecutor. Time' .a gnment draw■ from the societies to prosecute for t lefts could not apply to the present Association. How ens it possible that a man's feelings could be so inte •.ated in the ease of a Heft as they would ise upon a ; oration purely political. Party feeling would inter ere. sod even the Jury become contaminated with it .y the encouragement of lush a Society as this. That .weedy proposed woad be in aggravation of the ruin-1 Mei; tur. is bad been well-observed by bid lion. and .earned Eiriend, It would lead to die pollotion of tilt cry foe oial aof juistiott. The Atloniesetseteral • ai 1, heed not seo•abst 111estibeis of fbtir err disyu filled to sit as JuPporet b ploikkiitiolis no ceilithei and esM@ed, loryman . being a nieseber @Wild be a•goob _ °balling& If be (Mr. B.) sub• scribed to ►ring on as isiletorsiMi be certainly was an improper person to try h.-4111ear, hear.)—He really tbeight he oast, in this respect, base misandentood the words of Isis Hon. and Learned Friend, the ~ hear. bear.)-1 a ease of a Welty, if a man had subscribed mosey to tad the' bill of indictment. its (Mr. B.) held that this would be a good case for challenging him as a juror ; aid yet in such a cue it was sot likely that say thing bad occurred from the act itself to roase the passions. But the Bridge-street Association was headed in party feeling alone. Even their enthu siasm, however honest, was dangerous; they attacked oily those who differed from them in politics ; and not tee least objectionable part of the case was the circum stance. that if the matter were carried by writ of error to the House of Lords, the last legal resort, there were some dozen of Bridge-street Associators to Fire check mate to the proceedings.—(A laugh, and cries of bear, hear.)—Would any man of common understand iug say that this was consistent with common justice? The influence of the Members of this Association was not conismd to London. How could an impartial Jary be found in the country. half a dozen Jurors being tenaats of the Duke of this, that, or the other, a Member of the Society? How could the unfor tomato defendant have a fair chance ? A counter- Association. he repeated, would be worse than the pre sent evil ; for it would cause the whole country to be split into parties, and would destroy the hitherto proud character of English Justice. Thestrict legaiity of the Association on its professed principles he did not deny ; but the legality was no objection to the iuterference of the House. The abase, even of a legal right, might be a fair subject for interference. He did not ask whether what Mr. King had said, or what Mr. Orton had said was true; but he was satisfied that Mr. Murray and Mr. Sharp had bragged of the commission of acts which were illegal. He thought it was not legal to go to a man's shop and say to him, " If you don't agree to certain terms I propose, I will indict you. If you do not admit COW guilt, give up your property to es who have no right to ask it, and who cannot Like it without violating the law. If you do not, besides this, take an oath serer to repeat that which we proomince to be as illegal offence, we will indict legal veiseeance upon you, and you must endure the consequence." To do this, be thought uas to act more like a mistier than any thing else, more like a violator than a protector of the law. This he held to he iliegal. If this was the law, he had not studied it ; if it it as a part of the Cunstint. lion, he did not understand it. If these proceedings were to be supported by Peers, who might ultimately have to pronounce ulon them judicially; then all he could say wss, that there never was an Association put down as illegal half •io touch to be reprobated as this Society, this terror to all good men, commonly known by the name of the " Bridge-street Gang." There were, however many persons belonging to the Society for whom individually he entertained a rem high respect. To those he should prefer ming the lan guage of expostnlation rather then that oh reproach. He believed they had been drawn into the &oleo by designing persons ; that they were tbe tools ofilibers for s hoes ao one could possibly foot any insure{.-- " Chortle and State," " Social Orden' and 6 ' !tiered Institution." were fine phrases; but laiho pewit 1.- stance, they meant that it was necessary that a parcel of inditileals should steell their own woes by siting those ot ether people. Something. however, had dropped front the Hon. Member for !Smother (Mr. Wilborttnre), about the propriety of patting , down li bels on both sides ; but what was the fag t ? Why that all en one side were mown down, and all on the other left untouched. Benbow, he believed, had been pro secuted for pehlishlng a Caricature upon his Slajrsty ; bit this caricature was aetsally a parody on another quite as gross, which had • been published against the Queen.—(Hear, hear, bear.)—One was a libel on a woman, the ether on a snag, and this excellent Society bad taken no notice of the first.—(Cheers.) —The press bad teemed with the lowa disgusting libels; yet hal this same, this immaculate Association emptied all the phials of their wrath on the other side and that only. —(Hear, hear.)—lbe Society was, in fact, evidently erected tar party porpoises, to punish libels on one aide, sad, if not to encoura4e, at least to leave untouched all those oa the other. Mr. SOLICITOR iIF.NERAI thought thst in order to ferns a correct opinion on the present question, it would he proper to inquire what was the state ‘if the proceedings referred to by the motion. hills had been found by Wand Juries against in livideals for various libels; the Judges of the Courts of Law had bell these defendants to bail; and now the House of Commons was called spun to address the Crown to strip these prose cution, without any inquiry into their merits. The lion. sad Learned Member here entered into a review of the proceedings against 31r. Dolby, and contended that the Soave, had, in the course of the proceedings, done nothingowhich was not justified by law. The stock of Dolby wilt not demanded, he was only desired to give up the remaining copies of the libel referred to in the indictment. His Hon. and Learned Friend (11r. B.) bad sok denied the legality of the society. Another Hon. sad Learned Member denied its legality, on the ground that no individuals bad a right to subscribe for the purpose of prosecuting public libels. That was an agreement which it appeared bad now been given up. Indeed no attempt had been made in the superior Courts to question the legality of the Society ; and y attempt wade before another tribunal bad com pletely failed. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then referred to the Society of I ; 9 J2, which be said bad been ably and eloquently defended by Lord Ershiumitineself, on the trial of Willia . ns for publish- 1 ing PilFilk% " Age of Reason." What, indeed, could be si more proper object than the pideputing ; of sefli tiodb libels? And what sound objection could he relied against a Society who could not take a single stip without the previous opinion of a tirand Jury i 'hit sad, a Society was capable of abuse be.tild not deny, but no ground bad bees shorn to induce a belief ' taiat any abuse witatever existed in the ,coaduet of these prosecutions. He begged to correct his 14on. sad Learned Friend u to a reuiark be bad made ' .on, the proceedings in the Court of King's Bench oil the 1 westion respecting the Members of the Association qualified to serve on the Specical Jury. The order, of the Court relied on by his lion. and Learned rrientl, bud beets made 'with the consent of the promeatere. l :theptieires.—.(Hear.)--N0 person, palest called on. by atiaty, maid consistently make clnitgra of, deOcription, w)tich wep,t Nigh. PA/p fith a? rance f i see ii‘rity. As to tie pri a teilims.ileA_ it grin of estruagent a satire, that it was impossible to give 11••, -.- - - y - ; • - s 1 , , •• ri -4 y JAyPiRo etrugek 'Olititatribi ate Society. 11 .paqies would be so however. had declared thy* if justice woeld be poi. that*: fart of a Juryman's thought the objrctiou be stood cane of °bailout the Friend the .- put, mints. be respectf not' he' ustr offc shone try, erci secuted their these tutiona conieq deed interest Inv hel Polem cations not The the II o , WI. House. say , Jame; of spretieg wit beii WI dui dir soon i- • • %, - -.114- " 4 ".""" . • ' - '0" °4141116 1 ,1 1 06°11. PMPAPIP I II -e. -- ....----__L,L......,-11111110111 it the sanction of the House.- It was making an at- tack which the House would Beier support. Mr. BanUOtllln and the SOLICITOR-GSM/IAL MIMI. dly rsplalued. err. SCAULETT said his Honourable and Learned Friend had thew for the purpose of ailing him up, at • the same time tuak/ng statements of facts for the OWN surpose of making them the foundation of his awn. neat:. He never bad pledged himself to any opinion in the legality of this Association. He admitted that Ise did not consider the Society legal. Mach as. he respected the talent of his Leatned Friend, be would sot in compliment to that talent, 'awoke any opinion he had once given. He thought this Association slurped the functions of the Attorney-Osoeral. All )ffences which affected the tranquillity of the State, ihoeld be prosecuted by the Government of the coon- Ty. It was the ditty of the Attorney-General to ex- i ! , rcise a discretion whether the parties were to be pro- 1 iecuted or not ; but an Association of men, when they i undertook to prosecute, usurped that discretion, and :heir proceedings were illegal and dangerous. For hese reasons then, without at all considering the t wo- 1 ives of the individuals, be was of opinion the Condi- I :etional Society in itself was unconstitutional, and consequently illegal. He did not mean to say the lodges of the laud had decided on the question, in , - teed he did not know hew they could obtain judg- • - ment upon it. He considered it a Society for the pro- . iecution of political offences which affect the safety :Ind tranquillity of the State. Their prosecutions did . sot emanate from persons aggrieved; bat they were 'referred to benefit the State. Every man bad an • nterest in the preservation of the State, and the saw did not require an Association to do that which • belonged to the Government alone. Upon his 'olemu %tord, he believed 'one or more of the Prose- nations that were undertaken by the Association, would not have been undertaken by the Attornerpeneral.— fhe Society for the Suppression of Vice might abuse the power they used. In one instance Lord P.rskii•e threw up his brief because the Society obstinately refusel to be governed by his advice. All Societies prosecuting. ,„, upon public principles were dangerous. lie did nut wish to give any opinions on the law of the land in that House, because legal opinions in that Assembly were - Hot always impartial. lie did not think any case had nerurred in the Kings Bench to support his Learnad Friend's opinion. The tinie might arrive when the Attorney-General would find he had not been sufficiently instructed. lie felt this motion could not be supported, and he expressed a hope that his Hon. Friend would nut press it to a division, because he should feel obliged to • vote *gales: it. Mr. DENMAN explained. Mr. WHITBREAD in reply, said nothing be hal beard could convince him this Society ought to be vi 'lured. With respect to Benbow and Dolby, he would say, if those persons were acquitted and they sued for damages for a malicious prosecution they would fiiii J. B. Sharp had been a bankrupt. The question was then put and negatived without a division. % On the motion of Dr. PHI LLIMORE, a return of all Slaves in the West Indies was ordered to be laid before the House. On the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Lottery Bill, Dr. LUSHINGTON took the opportunity of a question of Supply being before the House, to ask a question re- spectieg the Peace Preservation Act in Ireland. He wished to bare some information as to the mode of its being carried into effect. . Mr. GRANT said a large portion of the inhabitants of i .... the proclaimed districts in Ireland bad earnestly inrreated , I that this Act might be put in force in their neighbour- hoods. The ordinary Police in Ireland was so defective in prictice, owing to the supineness of those in whose hands it was placed, that Government was obliged to have recourse to an extraordinary Military Police. Wherever Magistrates in Ireland had resolved to do their duty actively, there was no occasion for such extraor- divary severity. Dr. LUSHINGTON hoped that some means might 'non be taken to put a stop to the unhappy state of I Ireland. . I Mr. BENNET called the attention of the House to 1 the *hocking evils arising out of the Lottery system ; which the Society for the Suppression of Vice had ti passed over without notice, while they were prosecuting other gamblers. ( The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he • never made a shilling by the Lotteries. I - j 11 r. BROUGHAM thought it very unlikely that the , i ; Right Hon. Gentleman, or any one else, could make any thing by the Lotteries, when a ticket which sold for 16/. was not intrinsically worth lie. ! The Bill was then read a third time and passed. On the third reading of the Appropriation Act. Mr. CRERVEY took that opportunity of impress- ing on the House the necessity of resisting corruption, and takinir every pcssible pains to bring about *ease- mical Reform in all departments of the State ; and • r after all that had been done so successfully that Ses- sion by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) he was confident ~ that althongh no immediate effect wits produced from his efforts, a great deal would be done next Session. el The Muquess of LONDONDERRY congratulated 1 1 the House on the improved sentiments of the. Hon. Member, who acknowledged, in opposition to the opi- nions of others, that the Haase was capable of reform- I ing all the abuses that were said to have prevailed in it; and that great benefit was likely to arise from the failure of all the motions of the lion. Member for Aberdeen; and from this favourable %ley' which the , lion. Gentleman took of the proceedings of Parlia- ment, it was to be hoped that they would all be per- fog* twirdial next Session. i• Mr. BIiOUGHAM was sure that if it was sot fur .the ininisition of the ineeseres of Hoverouseat on his side of the Houle no couressionaroalkiM ;node ps the .. i part t a fen oflinvern ; n o e rd n : . After from Sir A. Wibiftlit, Ilt: SEXTEir , Mr. Ilvicui "sox, Sir R. Ftsersex... nail*. alum • : Abe Bill was read a third tin',~ god The Tobacco Bill was reedit therat*ard. The other Orders of the Illy Witsh; thew;d f." ADJOURNMIINT Oft. 1•1111116.111 41 .v. 4 '.. .. The Morgans of LONDONDRAILY Jew *ilk rising to move the adjettr i ninentssf Ilple lkstpedaeleialfilli .to state that the flame had fist iin • b ill dt eight heals sea *My minotelesnatet ', l l pe -' eta et thp.disties eft's, meshes. is Ilea'• thatjhey srotild convinceAhe .. 4 1 if ei r esall = ter deuelittle OAF it was hot -.. He isoeidieutatise kissed d'Alene" 'Olt . 1 Afijeattied at half-pest one. ..... ~ • ' . • a , • • ... ~. . - * • . s ti 1%1