The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-04-06 00:00:00

T THE ST qtlP , ti , in should not be agitated till after the Re iii.rt ut Agricultnril Committer had been herder I !louse, he hoped his Hou. Friend would uithdriw it in obedience to that wish. Mr. DAVENPORT concurred in the hope of the I:on. Member who spoke last, that the motion would 1 . withdrawn for the present. Mr. J. RENETT supporte.l the motion. He olepre .!eol the tax un husbandry !tortes as one of the most oimpresiive and unequal taxes. The Hon. Member who proposed a tax upon hot-houses and green-houses was iiot aware perhaps that such a tax would defeat its •n•l, alit would have the effect of destroying the ope ►.,tiun date tax upon glass in those rase.. An Hox. Mamoru moiler the Oalle y said a few words in support of the motion. H•• wishe•l to know orom the Chancellor of the Exrhr•iner, whe:l.er the indow-tax af•icted the windows of Colleges as well it other buildings. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER asked ':nether it was the intention of the Honourable Metu '.•.•r for Cumberland to withdraw his motion'? In re. oily to the question of the Hon. Member opposite, he ►. oil to say that the windows of Colleges raid as other windows. Mr.CIAWEN said, that if the Right Honourable tientleman opposite would pledge himself to meet the . , •i•testion at a future period, be wool I withdraw his mafiosi in obedience to the wish of the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he did not wish to pledge himself to any course of proceeding on this question till he should have heard :he Report of the Committee on Agriculture. The. lion. Oetttlemen opposite seemed to differ among' themselves on the subject, and as fat ■s he was able to indge, he must say, he had not heard of any thing which could compensate for the loss of 500,000/. a the Revrnn••, winch was the amount derived from t his tax. After lie should hare beard the Report of the Committee, be might, perhaps, be induced to a:zree with the Hon. Mover; but if he were called upon :0 proceed at present he should oppose him. Sir T. LETHRRIDUE was satisfied that the coun t ry would consider the repeal of the Husbandry Horse as a great relief. He did not wish to undervalue ;'u• opition of the Committee up stairs; he must say • hat he thought it w.•uld be much better for the House •a grant this small boon to the Ag•ricul•urista at •'ie present moment, without waiting for any tl.ing. Such a step would produce a favourable e.feet ninon the country in general. Mr. UI PPS thought the motion would come with rester weight after the Report of the Agricultural t (nominee. Mr. RICARDO said he should vote for the repeal ► f this tax for the sante reason as be had given a si milar vote on the question of the Malt Tax ; not that • hey were load taxes, but on the score of economy. .le was willing to vote for time reduction of taxes to ::ie amount of the Sinking maim, which was a mere Wi:h respect to the statement of the Hon. .leumber for Catasherlantl (Mr. Curwen.) he had only • ► say that he was very glad to hear that the Monarchs Europe bad turned Coen Merchants: for be was in :►opes they would be able to make better bargains with t!.ton. Mr. BARING regretted. that time Hon. Member for `4emersetsliire (Sir 'l'. Lethbridge) had thought pro ffer to introduce some observations in the ronrse of this itiscussion, which were perfectly uncalled for by the .inestion before the House. Such observations came Lord did not believe that the distresses of the agrienltotrists were properly appreciated by the Aleinhe:s of that Honse,.mil socially hr Cie Aleut hers of leis Maksty's Uovermorot. Though a Com mittee had been appointed to inspire into the present agricultural distress he was lot to believe, fpm the rumours which were abroad, that 11in;sters had come into the Co.mnittee in olonlst to the existence of that distress. On this sohjert he thought they ought to have made np their minds before ;ranting Ate Co limittee. Tise Rill Ills liononrabte Friend wished to introtloce lie thought might be bronglst in, and iii could then he suspended in its stages till the Com tnittee made their Report. lie then described the dist., tressed eate of the Stoolterts fatalities, anti de/tribal large tracts of land to lie unoccupied with little pram" pests of their landlord's titstliag tenants. Ile contd., tiered the tax to press severely on the agriculturist, I anal shoal.' therefore vote fair its repeal on a principle different items that on which on a former evening . he spools have voted for the repeal of the Malt-lax had he been present. Ile tchontil vote for the repeal of the Agricultural klo:se "las to relieve the landed in- 1 terest ; for the repeal of the Malt Tax he would have voted on the principle laid down by the Member for Portarlington. sad on toot contentleti for by the' Member for .Rippon , to compel the Alinistry to hrro l recourse to a sestein . of retretwitment anal econoinv• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 01.1 plained. Mr. CI:RWEN, onslerstantlinz the Right lion. Hentleman to say, that in the event of the removal of 1 this tax being strouttey recotnusen•lcd by the Com mittee in their report, lie would be disposed t t con sider of the point of cancelling the boon ; under scantling this to lw the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Ise unthiniceilly shoull think it his duty to give way. Ile, however, ',egged to s•ate, that if the Committee failed to make their report till a very late period of the Session, hr should feel hiroself at liberty to bring the ssaikject forward again. 'llse CHANCELLOR of the ENCHE4L'EIt thought nothing 1110fe fair than that the Hole. Gentleman should have in Isis own breast the right of reviving the motion, if the Report of the Committee should he so long delayed as to make it probable that traitinz for that, no practical meastur could be adopted in the course of the present Session. lie then repeated what he had previously stated as to the course which he should feel it his alloy to pursue on the report of the Cummitte being made. )Ir. IL I' thought it right to state, that if in the event of the Alalt Tax being repealed, the Chan cellor of the Exeldropirr should propose a sub stitute fur it, he should" feel it his date to oppote it. He would not consent to the removal of a tax from one class, if it was intetssletl to impose it un others. 'floe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re , served to himself the right of proposing another tax 'as a substitute for the Malt Tax, if it should he repeal ed, and it would then be for the House to ilete.oline which would be the least oppressive. After a taw words front 31r. Alderman C. lutrui Mr. D. Hams ts, and another Hon. Member, • 1 Lord Maw MPH said, if the. Right Him. Oentle• man pledged himself to tahe oil the tax, if this .would he fetiO 1111 l ;rude , ' in the Report of the Committee, h.• would consent to the motion loping a ithdrawn ; but if the l'isancellor of the Eschesiorr declined giving such a pledge Ise should wish the question to be pressed to a division. Mr. F. LEWIS rose, but the call for the qnestion 'aid, peculiar ill grace from Gentlemen. who, like bein vet i .' r Hon. Member for Somersetshire , b ad never, in a g y loud, the Hon. Menther resumed his seat, and floe Gallery was cleare.l. We, however. under ..ngle instance. refused their support to his Ma j est y 's .‘Lnisters, and who, after having eased themselves of stn mil that no division took place, and that the motion ..! . Intrthens of the public expenditure, by borrowing was wituolrawn. B INii, CASH PAYMENT BILL. ononey of others, were now ready to cheat the public o.:1-slitor (for he could use no other language) of the On the Order ut the e oil the Bank Cash Payments __ l'iay loving moved tow the House ,aoney which hail been advanced fur their relief. lie g°ing into a Committe dni not apprehend, however, thallhe opinions of the Bill, t.!on. :Umber fur Somersetshire were likely Whe much Mr. BARING said, he ronsidered the snhject of , anntenance•l, or to make much progress in the colon. such importance that he thought it desirable that it :•.v. He could not but express souse surprise to hear •hoonlol he re-considered. lie then fore moved that it f!*s Hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Ricardo), who ad- should be an instruction to the Committee to reconsider eveated the sound principles on the subject of the Na- the provisions of an Act of the gilt lieu. 111., cap. 49. t ;anal Debt, declare his determination to Yale for the with a view to amend the same, for the purpose of al tepeal of any Taxes as long as the Sinking Fond re- leviating the presssise which the said Act might pro mained, for his argument went that length. Ulm ball dare on several liranclies of public industry. os'oierted only to the mode of keeping the accounts of j The CIUNCELLOt o often ebated—ha concur with bins, for it was calculated only to puzzle fully considered two years ago, when that measure and confuse. But to say that a Sinking rand ought was adopted, which Ile hoped the House would not not to be maintained, was in effect to say that the depart from, t h at he should not now enter into details. .1 onntry should go on burrowing, as long as fools Ile conld not agree will the present proposition. enough could be found to lend their nuttier, and that Mr. ELLICE would he wiling to follow the exam i a security should be offered to the creditor.—(Dear.) pl.. of the Chancellor of the Exo•heliter, he not going —.With respect to the repeal of the present Tax, h e inn) details if lie could be satisli-oi that one more opportunity for discussing this subject would be slot not think it was calculated to affor d much relief to tile agricultural interests; nor slid h e think that much afforded. 'llse CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ UER said. snore information than Hon. Oentlemen a l rea dy poi. mwssell upon the subject, was likely to be obtained by the Hon. lientleniao might have another oppoortnnity waiting for the Report of the Comaoritee. For Ms own ortataling this stibject at length, he tooting that the t.art, he bail always considered the maintenance of the debate should stand adjourned till Monday. finances of the country an object of essential import- Mr- RENNEN' wkheil to know, if on Mondae since, and he thought the country would he better able this question wonlii he *Booed prurity over every to engage in any contest, or c .pee with any difficulties, other. Ile complained of the delays which had oc: wi•lo a strong finance than with a strong military or rimed, and lisped that son Monday the debate would be brought on in good time, and not be put off till esi a..oval establishment. , • Mr. cALuitArr said, that he was **desirou s tokeep o'clock in the morning. top the financial credit of the country as his lion. Friend Mr. ELLICE, wishing this question to come on wheal. CA' Member for Taunton could possibly he, hut with it could be fully debated, acquitted the Ri g ht Hoe. r sspezq to the question of keeping up a 'Sinking Feud, iieot i entan of all blame f orits postponement on the i; was necessary to consider Imo* far the comforts and • weans of the people wooill enable us to do so. Such present occasion. He rather ecnn ' idered the Right Illi' nourable Heinle:min to be elotitled to thanks fur having . • wig the state of the country, and such the situation of iven wa particular classes of the rommunit y , that it was gy, that another subject, more pressing in its better, even with a view to keeping sip the national nature , might com e on, at the so g gestion of the Right credit, to relax a certain part a the public bur- Hon. tientleman, the President of the Board of Trade. then, than to press the good people to extremity. Let The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved. irir army . and nave establishments b e r educed, and that that the Committ ee should adjourn till Monday. reolnetion %email afford ikte very means of keeping np the .. Sinking Pim&The Committee He did not object to the Sinki n g Fund, Ihe motion was agreed to. • tent to tlie manner in which t he Sinking Feed was em- on the Irish Bank Cash Parses* played. The Sinkins; Feud was- in . fact a board of Bill was postponeol till the same slay. * -.•- money kept up at a • .at 'silence. and taken from the neacnasie IN Tum TIMMER TRAWL • p e op l e at inconvenieut periods, and by hard means. It Mr. RARING presented a petition from we Mess was a large treasure amassed ender the name of a Sink. chants of London trading to the North 4 swops% ire g Fund, snot lavished at pleasure by time tiovernment. praying for such an adjastasent of the ditties on Time Was that the way to economise, or save the resources of ber as sboald promote the general interests of tholes*. the people? The money would be the muds safer, he contended, in the pockets of the people, both as a seen- IliallilY• • rite for themselves, ...all a resource for the State. than it Mr. J. P. GRANT wished to know whether ail was even in the hands 14 .the Commissioners fur die represeatatione had been made by the Ambabledett charging the public debt. With respect to the ,f Swedes and Norway, un the subject of Use 'haw I•-fore the Haase, be eloopld certainly sapper' it ff Trade • Hon. Friend thought raper to press It to a OA . Mr. WA LLACBsaid. there had bees represeatatiase bat he amid not key *kiting th4t be would raneest to postpone it until after this Report of the Agrieultural on the Mr. uthiM ARReet• YAT wished to know whether soy Committee. ^' Ilik.l •f .0 . • - - I =e - A..._....3...._ ...3411% N • representations had peen made on the part of other Powers of the almost total prolsibitioa of their trade? Mr. WALLACE hail no recollection that any such represostations had been wade. He petition was orslAred to be'printed. TIMBER IX - TIES. On lb. motion of Mr. IVADLACE, the Report on I the Timber Defies Act uses then re-committed. Mr. WALLACE addressed the Committee, hut in: inch indistinct terms that we could only now and then eatcls an observation. He said that be had hear.l vas rictus and conflicting opinions stated as to the altera tion in the Duties on Timber, which he had proposed. On one side it was said that he had proposed to take off too much_-on the other, that he dill nut wish to take off enough. One said that he was Willing to give too notch protection to Norway--another, that Ise was inclined to favor the Colonies ; but he held it impossiisle to please both parties. The Right lion. Member, after observing that the proposition be fore the Committee, while on the one band it was just to the North of Europe. was on the other hand just to the Coloniee(it being-calculated to do no more than bring the Colonial into fair competition with the Foreign' Timber Trade). concluded by moving that the Com mittee esould agree with the first Resolution in this Report. Sir li. PARNELL conten.led at considerable length that the proposition of the. Right Masons-able Gentle man opposite was to call on this country to pay n tax in the shape of a bounty, in order to enable Russia to send tioshcr to this country in competition with Nor way. Conceiving that no rise was made out for such a sacrifice, and that the only question was. at what tints., without undue precipitation, it would be fit to recur to a Este of sound principle on the subject, he moved as an amendment, to omit all the words in the resolution after the word " anti," for the purpose of substituting the following' :—" That the duty on all Timber imported into the Unites! Kingdom after the Ist of .January. 1525. s'.all he 21. a load of 30 cubit feet, and oft All Deals imported, after the same period of 21. 54. a load of 5:1 cubic feet ; the sail! Duty to he charged by the cubical contents of such Timber or Deals." Mr. BENNET observed. that he hail no personal interest in this question ; hr stood on neutral gr.turel, but he was anxious to len.l his aid to the support of those great principles of Free Trade which cools' alone extricate 114 from our dilficaltirs. He urged Parliament to lake the present opportunity of putting at least one branch of our trade tint of the trammels of the old sys tem. 'the system plumed with respect to the Timber Trade was not like that of the Silk Trade for instance, long established and fostered. It commenced only in 107. and then, with a specific declaration, that it was intended to be temporary. The Committee ought to recollect, that they were legisbving for England, not fur Russia or Norway ; anithat the only question was, in what way flusher could be obtained at the cheapest rate for the consumer? The Honourable Gentleman proceeded to ridicule the absurdity of making the people of this country pay a Tax of 400,0001. or 500,000/. to pot in the pockets of the Canadian lum ber-meat, or those other lumber-men, the ship-owners at home. He then entered into • variety of ealettla• tiuns to show that by the operation of the duties im posed iu 1607, we bad driven the Norwegian, which was confessedly the best timber, out of the market, and that the proposition of the Right lion. Gentle man would have the effect of keeping it out of the market. He oho n maintained that the scale of duties recommended by his Noble Friend wa• much prefer able to that recommended by the Right llononrable Gentleman. His own proposition (as we understood the Ilonossrab!e *holden' n) was to reduce the duty on the whole of the Foreign timber one half—that was from 31. to 31114 an.l to lay that duty on American timber, which trutild give about the same amount of revenue as the present proposition. lie admitted that it would drive bail timber from America out of the market ; but t hat, he contended, was desirable. The lion. Member, after stone further observations, concluded by giving his support to the Amendment. Mr. N. D 011; LAS opposed the amendment. Sir M. RIDLEY objected to the proposed altera tion in the Duties, but, if left to a choice of evils, he would of course prefer the original motion to the amendment. 'I he Hon. Member was proceeding to state the grounds upon which his opposition was founded, when the attention of the House was ar rested by a Member (.lr. Williams) having been overcome by the heat of the House. The Chair man recommended that the Ilonourable Member should he removed into the Lobby fur the benefit of the air. Mr. Williams having been assisted out of the House, the Hon. Member (Sir M. W. Ridley) proceeded to address the (louse, hut from the con fusion occasioned by the circumstance above alluded to, we were unable to c.,lhect the import of his ob servations. Mr. SYKES opposed both the original 'violins int) the amendment. Lord ALTIIORP entered into an explanation of the arguments which he had urged u a previous stage of this question ; after which, Isis Lordship concluded by stating that it was Isis intention to submit another proposition to the Committee, as soon as this question was disposed of. Mr. F. ROBINSON begged to offer a few obser vations to the House upon this qnestion. He was glad to hear that the arguments urged against the motion of his Right Hoteouraiele Friend were so widely opposed to each other, fair he felt that the regulation proposed by that Bill Was one which ought to he adopted by the country. The colonies, he contended, ought to he considered rather as an integral part of the mother country, than a portion bearing but a remote interest with it. The shipping interestssboulel also be resperted. They never should forget that It was the nurse of our Navy— " Whom flag had braved a thousand years. The battle and the breeze." As to the quality of the Canadian timber, it • ap peared that it was not so bail as had been described, though, in some instances, it had suffered a defect in the preparation. lie disapproved of the application of cubic measurement to the deals, antler the pre sent circumstances, as the former system had been so bag porsuad, and the object of Parliament to he to render any change as little injurious as possible t• the existing interests. it bad bees said, that the erect of his Right Honoemble Friend's uststiese would Ise to lima:* the deal trade into the hoods el I •Kaseia ; but though it was oast that there had 'beam Pt, f a falling-off in the importation from Norwa e , l h.. o was not a eorrespontlent increase in that fro ot I aria and I'rwaria; the t: f ts ) ht have i deals,oa anti flit• stet, sf the internal ri . l int the firt afforded no couutenauce to the erg auteit ittsiell om A fr. Nit I denied that the colons,' re swe ma*, rially interested iu this t piestion, ur that th ey any respect op i p h. re . s z il thi s.oi.riii; i -t,rfea ourteol They by this cupt i t ß • ri (Ince, soil ever, it, fact, the loot tl • triting pan Of North America. Besides, the timber trade hid groin up ti:ere but lately, mid WAS altogether the creato r , of duties and restrictions. Much, he would a t h s 4, ought to he avertlis I the tr.. to le mainteoaner of our uttvsl supe.iootity, but even to find it WAS possible In wak e WO great a sacrifice. To stead foto thoattaild wiles,( to the (metro regions of Canasta fur timber, inferior to''' that which they might have fr ;111 the distance of a few hundred nines, w.o, in hill to.' p ea t a sib , cri!ice. Something, le.iivever. he web ttilliog to in fAVGOII, of that o'ioi et, itittl therefore the 'iodination of his mind was to copport the propoNition of the Chairman of the Cotninittee, which went far enough ; and it was generally safer to atoi.le by th e ,ted.i.n ei a Committee, than to take op opinions f. 0.0 the eti t s sory remarks that iti the progress o f di misi i on. Mr. Kit AIIAN) observes) that the Cnee t ait treern o. reign Trade heti lA4 down just principles, hut prto dotted a report at variance with all those ii t io te a t .u s . No country was more fortunately placed with respe l ls to timber than this, for the go.od timber WI , near as, and the bail was mattes., and Moles and Arts of Par „ amitieut were necessary to make us chose the b a d. Th e Member fur Shrewsbury bad shown that the country was taxed to the autumn of four hundred ihou,al4 pounds anunally fur the benefit of the ship owners, Fur his own part, he would rather agree , to a direct In ht that amount, than to each a dun as the pretest, fo: the capital granted to theship-ownersoiiAt inthat case lot better employed. It had been said that N unny bad her toll portion of the trade in deals, hut what be m.,intained was, that the trade should be left r. frctly tree. The Mouse had molting to du with the shipping interests, or with the Colonial tra.lr, or with any interest but that of the consumer, which is shears the public interest. it was right that the ' people of 77mglantl should have a power to purchase eve: r thing where it could be had un the cheapet terms, and to employ themselves in that Ira !e which was most to their advantage. It hail b..en said, that if we imported deals fano Norway, she could not tale our inanu:aetures, hot that te;:s of nu istiportauct object was to get deals cheap, and there we could gat thesis. Another argument was, that in case of a Tap red with the Baltic, they might refuse to supply and therefore i.e should nut destroy the Casulitut trade ; but the wood omit still continue to grow is America, and from thence we could have it at the high price, whenever eirconistatires reduced es to the alternative. Ile (Mr. Ricardo) expected, on the pre sent occasion, the support of the President of the Board of 'I ride. The Iti s ,lit honourable gentleman that if we were beginning a new sycesii, a difirrnit principle from that of the present might be acted sa. Now lee (Mr. Ricardo) conceived that we were eaVI beginning the Trade—that we were perfectly watt term] ; for the Report stated that this toiletry was under no engagement with America, and was these. fore at liberty to pursue the course most prohtslole W itself. Mr. MARRY AT contended, that the first slaty st that house was to protect the Shipping Trade; bat it areareol to hint that toey were How called oasts sacriice the best interests of the c o untry to fineigeers —to nations which had given to England so nosy I proofs of ingratitude, and to whose views she turf , heed her blend and treasure. Ihe navigation systra an long acted on in Euglatid, was attended with es• tional greatness and conituerciol pro-perity. To hey it wools! be to argue against the evidence of facts. lie thought that any violent alteration in the system could not be ma to without injustice and injury to the citatory. Mr. T. WILSON said, that oar Shipping Intense , ought to form a a primary 'object with that Hesse. Ile had lived long enough in the world to give that country the preference which admitted oar mouse ditie., before the casuistry which would exclude tutor , . Mr. P. LEWIS supported the Anarniussut. Mr. WALI.ACR replied shortly. Sir H. PARNELL withdrew his A m endment. Mr. J. P. ORANT gave notice that toe woohl move for a different scale of I sties on a future occasion. Mr. WALLACE observed, that the Hon. Member might make his useti.oi at present. Mr. J. P. GRANT said that be would have us ab jection to do so, if the forms of the Mouse ovate sa• mit of it. The Comtuittee then divided— lljnor the original Motion, 7I —Against it. 61 7 Majority, 47. ' Sir PARNI3I.I., while strangers remised chided, proposed an Amenslasent to limit (we male . stand) the scitesiule of duties to five years. AM which the trade should be entirely free. The CO' mime divided For the Amendment, Is—Against it, 51-4 11 ' jority, 36, The house then resumed. read fewT The Juvenile Re: and time ibis da y ma l yn l i d l ir o re ' .e a was : o ga r ti et l ,e,. a t : he other orders of the day were di 'p wed of.. Adjourned at a quarter before 'I a o u'Cloch• MAJORITY ANDTakIN,INMILY.3! Tint um" SIA.IO4IITif M. Attworml. Sir 7'. Acimpl, F. U. :Velour, J. Mal* ander. J. D. Alexander, la ra Amnon. Right Halion. W. .Irhethnot, Ashisto, Wtn. : Isteil, Right . Ilegwell, 11. Makes, A. !luring. %I. !tartly. Might RN. Ilatlinvit, lion. S. Ruthann, Right Hon. J. &Ati , Kretive. E. of 11,1 fast, John Rent. Joke 1 00 * elianan, l ord H. Itere4ford, Sir J. Iteresfortl. lnsnlre+ inirsl. John Rhickliurne, J. Rluir, Right Hon. S. Rintrot. C. ilrandling, J. Brogilen, Right Hon. D. tinnily. Browned. Browne, C. Ikon tilow, 11. Briton. Sir Burgh. J. J. Osamu, John Calvert , Right As& II Canning. Vier. enetlereugh, K. S. Claret, Arkin kik ..lirster; li. Cherry, W. 1.. Chili., Sir AL CArolnitfrp Clerk, Ilon. J. l:ktutate, Sir W. Clintn. 140. 4194 ,100. K. Clive, Henry Clive , Sir O. Corti! NI 4. Cockerrll, Hon. J. S. Corks, Hon. John Corks. Collett, Sir W. Congreve, K. R. Cooper, K. 14 - 1 : 1.1 " John Copley, 11. Conrtviniy, T, P. Cellftatifi,Sloo. HAI- H. I) . (Nye' 00fe dale, ass.. Etas p I'm W. C lira. W. ( Um P. H Hod Had I nal Keri Seri Hos 11. I VI AlO. Nes Sir .. • her Hai Poll Prii Itpi Roi tim RI Pi s ll 11 11 di .1 , 11 , U .1 • I k 1 I I I