The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-20 00:00:00

could be only personal convenience. He certainly differed from his Right Honourable and Learned Friend (Sir John Nicholl) who wished for a longer • delay. All that he wished was an interval of four days after the printing of the Bill, and really that aid not appear to him to be an unreasonable request. LLIMORE allowed that it was desirable on all accounts that obe.Bill should have asfull a consideration as - tras necessary, but contended against unnecessary relay.. The objectof the measure was to put the Roman Catholics on the same footing as Protestant Dissenters. :Rio means by which it was originally proposed to effect Ibis object, were by repealing the declarations against raosubstantiation, and annexing an explanation to the Cloth of Supremacy. The alteration about to be intro oitic,ed was simply, instead of annexing the Oath of Sip iLemacy, to incorporate it in the Oath. Had not that subject again and again been discussed ? The Right Hen. Gentleman argued. as if the whole Bill were to be Atered, instead of merely this particular provision of it. He trusted his Right Honourable Friend would not be induced to delay proceeding with the Bill beyond Thurs. %lay or Friday at farthest. As far as he was able to col ,:t the sense of the House, Thursday seemed to them to • the tittest day. Mr. PEEL in explanation, observed, that the lion. and Learned Gentleman who had just spoken, said the object of the Bin was to put the Roman Catholic on the same footing as the Protestant Hiss:niter. flow was ;but reconcilable with the Annual Indemnity Act neces. jar: for the latter ? The real object of the Bill was to xsat the Roman Catholics on the same flaming as the ?rotenone of the Church of England. ' Mr. WF.THERELL and Sir G. HILL supported the propriety of fixing a later day than Wednesday for the sOmmitnient of the Bill. blr. '1 I ERN EY declared, that he thought his Right Honourable Friend had acted with great candour in not going on with the Bill, as be might well have done on that evening; and that in his opinion that candour would become excesive, if his Right Honor able Friend postponed the recommitment beyond Thurs day. He (Mr. T.) objected to Friday ; because, as the discussion might occupy two days, the further pro ceeding would then go over to Monday. lie implored the House not to consent to unnecessary delay. Ile fare credit to the Right Honorable Gentlemen oppo site for their assurance, that it was by no means their wish to emite agitation in the country ; but there were those out of doors who would not scruple to use every effort for that purpose. There was but one main alteration in the !till, and the snhject had been under dismission too many years to render it necessary that much time should be given to the House of Commons to consider the merits of that alteration. What be pressed upon the House was this—if the thing was fit to be done, to do it at once ; if not, to reject it at once. Lord CASTLEREAGH concurred very much with the Right Honorable Gentleman who had just sat down ; at the sometime he was extremely anxious to come, if possible, to some conciliatory arrangement on the subject. It appeared to him to be of great im portance that the House should come to a decision on the subject on the same day on which it should he hit-ought before them. Wednesday, in point of concili atikti, although certainly not of argument, was too early ; the next day was a drawing room, and, although It was unparliatuentary, he might be allowed tp express his fears that a House might not be made; Monday was quite out of the que-,tion, for certainly a week's consideration was altogether unnecessary. He hoped, th-rcfore, that the intermediate day, Friday, would kl chosen. Dr. PHILLIMORE, in explanation, contended, that tl'e Bill not Doing to repeal the Test Laws, would only Ore the Catholic on a tooting n ith the Dissenter. Mr. WYNNE thought Friday was not a desirable day, as the discussion might go over to Saturday. Mr. CROKE!! said, he rose in conse9uenee of the no t":.e he had given of a motion respecting the provision for the Irish CaLliolie Clergy. As the present Bill was to b' committed merely pro forma. he bad no wish to i”volve the House in a itiscussion but he had a propo %'!ion to make to which he honed his Right Hon. Friend upposite (Mr. Plunkett) would have no chjeution. If tee House should allow the present Bill to be printed, lie-would, upon the bringing up the Report, take the sense of the House upon his proposition respecting the ..lpport of the Irish Catholic Clergy in the shape of a cause to be added In this Bill. Mr. COURTENAY disapproved of engrafting the rrotsure of his Right Hon. Friend upon the present Ej:l. It would make it a Money Bill, and consequently tte slightest alteration of it in another place would be fatal to the whole Bill Mr. H U explained. 7he mode of the proposi tion would be such that the Rill, even with the clause is atie-Aion, cuitlil not he considered as a Money Bill The question, "'That the Horse should resolve Itself into a Committee," was then put and agreed to. The House went into a Committee; the Resolutions were proposed and carried proArma. The (louse resumed, and the Report of the I;ouitnittee was brought up and agreed to. The SPEAKER then pnt the question that the Re. port should he talon into consideration. :Much noise ensued ; and the !louse oppeared to be divided be tween the cries of " Thursda% and " Friday," which were called out very generally. The Spcalter havieg reminded Hon. Members that no question was before the House, called upon Mr. PLUNKF.II.—The Right Ifor. Member said it sras his wish to conciliate al! parti , s. As he °of. forted that the majority of the House inclined to Thursday," be begged to propose that day tor taking e Ripon into consideration. Mr. - UOVLBURN said he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman uvula have given up a pint which laud been asked of cando►►r. A 4, however, be persisted in moving for Thursday, be (Mr. 1.i.) should uppOse the motion. Mr. PLUNKE i•T again rose; and repeating► his wilt) to coneiliatii ail parties, aueeti that Friday" thonld be substituted fir " Thursday." The SPEAKER then put the question for taking •-tbe Report into consideration on Friday, which ►vas agreed to, • Mc. CROKER then gave notice of a motion, on ..F.r:dayi -for. making a provision fur the Irish Roman •• Crtholic Clergy. air OF .011.0 E HILL begged to call the attention ..s.f the Mugs to a Petition it h;elt bad been presented • ••loy the Jhnu. Member fur Aberdeen from a Roman Ca tholke -Clergyman, a Mr. Hayes of WestOrd. Ile .11;:ought .she Jon. Member, in candour would have • mowed-that she Petition should be printed; but as he .. hyd not done so, he (sir 6.) now begged to utose ~o‘lhat She Petition be in print." . : fI.OIII4.MIWPOICIP said, that the rtitioner .4.kai received—every •mark of reapprobation from the tiers: eecleatiastkal authority. should oppose tio pe.ttCpg of Ilse pelitivio. . • IL ,- THE STATESMAN. Mr. HUME said, that when be presented the Peti tion he informed the House it was from an individual, and that he (Mr. H.) could not concttr in its prayer. It really had not occurred to him to move that it should be printed, or he would have done so. The petition was then ordered to be printed. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON said it ap peared by the papers on the table, that among others a sum of 46,0001. was charged in the accounts rela ting to the expenses of the proceeding against her Ma jesty. He understood that a part of the expenses of the Milan Commission has been paid out of the Secret Service Money. Ile wished to know whether there would be any objection to give an account of the ex penses in detail ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, there would be no objection to give a detailed account under general heads. It was impossible to produce all the Touchers. Lord CASTLEREAGH made some observations which we did not distinctly hear. They related solely to the auditing of the accouts. Dr. LUSHINOTON said, he perfectly arreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman that all the vouchers could not be produced by either one side or the other. Some of the accounts, indeed, were of a nature that ought to be made public ; and he rather thought that sume of the expenses fur the Prosecution, could not be known even to the Agents of the Crown. A sum of 10,000/. had been paid, he understood, out of the Secret Service Money, a payment, which he thought never wa, in tended by Parliament to be made out of such a fund. Lord A. HAMILTON said, he was then to un.!er stand that no aceontit in detail was objected to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER as sented. Lord A. HAMILTON then gave notice of a motion for such detailed account for Wednesday se'nuight. Mr. BERNAL wished to know whether any step had been taken by Ministers on the subject of the littssian Tariff, as far as it affected the duties on sugars? Mr. WAREE, in a low tone of voice, wished to know what steps on this subject were taken. if any hail been taken by his Majesty's fiovernment Lord CASTLERE.UiII said, that the subjeet was under consideration. The Emperor of Russia hail referred the Tariff to the consideration it his Minis. ter, who had not vut made his Itepiwt. The Noble Lord said that he 11;141 little doubt hitt that the duties would be reotlated in a way that would produce mu tual satisfaction. submitted to the House. That measure did not pro pose to make any alteration with respect to the circu lation of the Bank of England. further than that it would enable the Bank to do that in 1821, which it otherwise could not do until May 1822—namely, to I , issue gold coin to what extent and in what manner they should think lit.—The Right Honourable Gen tleman next said, that it had been his intention to in crease the legal tender of silver currency, but having consulted many able gentlemen, they gave it as their opinion—an opinion which he adopted—that the pos sible source or accommodation which might he thus afforded to the public, would not be so great as to justify a departure from a system, which was adopted, after grave consideration. lie had only to add, that it was his intention to propose a corresponding al teration with respect to the Bank of Ireland—that Corporation being anxious to follow the Bank of England in all its gradations towards the resumption of Cash Payments. Mr. BARING said, that as far as the limited mea sure now proposed went, he had no objection to it, for if the House were still persuade•] that the steps taken for a return to the ancient standard were right, it undoubtedly would Ire prudent to give the Bunk, in May next, instead of 1.822, the permission to pay in cash, instead of in bullion. But lie thought it neces sary to look at the general effects of the measures taken for the resumption of Cash Payments. It bad now been seen that the paper currency had been brought back to the level of gold more rapidly than had been generally deemed possible, not more ratpidl• than he had thought possible, because he hail always thought that the value of the Bank notes was in the hands of the Bank. There was one or two observations which were called from him by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that the putting out of gold by the Bank of England would operate as a relief to the circulation of the world. This trmild have been an important effect if it could be so produced, but he (Mr. IL) held it to bra mistake; for just in proportion as gold was put forth by the Bank, they mat with draw me% so that nothing would be diminished of the general mass of rirculation.—(Hear.)—lt was also remarked by the Right lion. Gentleman that the withdrawing in part of I I. and 2/. notes would lessen forg-ery. This al. ► he (Mr. li.) eunsidereda mistuke, fvr so long as these notes continued, whether they formed one-half or two-thirds of the circulation, faci lities and temptations for forgery would still exist. But before any step was taken, he begged once more to call tle- attention of the douse to that great snh ject which the proposal of the Right Hon. Gentleusan would affect. He was aware in doing so, that nothing was a greater misfortune than a varying standard, so that if he thought lie hail not a very weighty cause he should nut have troubled the Committee on the sub ject ; and having proposed his plan, and having it disposed of, as it probably would be, the House might proceed to the adoption of the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which, when it was once settled, he (Mr. B.) should be the last man to attempt to disturb. But before the House set the seal of this plan,he begged to ruff their attentian to the question , whether it was not important that the whole question should be reconsider ed = l le wished the House to ask themselves what was the real canoe of the situation of the country• ? Why were they besieged, not with clamour, bat with Petitions, couched in the most respectful terms from all classes, and from none inure than from that important class the agriculturists. We were now many years beyond the time when the effects of the transition from war to peace must have been felt ; when all the stories of over production and under production were out of place; when such reasons to account for the distresses of the country were mere trash, as all this, if left to itself, must have been regulated long ago.—(Hear.)— It was natural, therefore, that they should look for a solution to a circumstance in which no country ever was placed before, a rapidly progressive increase of the value of money. There had been many instances of a contrary progress, but he had no recollection, and most !answerable to this country it was, that we were the Gen to give the example of this up-hill return to a higher standard. There was no doubt, that fora long time the country had been spending its capital instead of its income, and that as this had created a temporary appearance of prosperity, it would produce subsequent exhaustion and distress. They might see the truth of this, by applying it even to any country town. If the country gentlemen of any neighbourhood were to scrape together all the capital of the neighbourhood to spend it in any unproductive works, there could be no doubt that the process would produce a momentary• prosperity and subsequent distress. But too long a time bad elapsed since the peace, for the effect to con tinue to be felt, and be was therefore induced to look to the other present peculiar circumstance, the up-hill progress towards our ancient standard. If, indeed, we hail now got over the difficulty, if we were now at the t ,p of the hill, he should think we had good reason to persevere ; but we were loaded with immense debts, nit only the public debt, but front individual to individual, that he saw no limit to the pressure. lie had never thought with some Geutleman, that there was a difficulty in the actual payment in specie —(hear!).—The difficulty was in mastering the increase of debts and of burthens, which that payment would cast upon us. A question of great importance, therefore, was to ascertain the de gree of depreciation from which we were returning. it u•as an observation, than which nothing was more tette, that the variation of the value of the currency was not immediately perceived by the wisest of the community. We saw that bread and every other ar ticle varied in price ; but it at first sight appeared, that the standard by which all these things acre measured borer varied. Bat that there had been a change in this standard was now acknowledged even by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Vansittart) who had drawn into resolutions which it would hare been better that the House should never have adopt ed, and which lie hoped they would one day rescind.— (Itear, hear).—lt was said by the Honourable 31einber for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo), that when this act was passed, there was onle a difference of six per cent. between that and the ancient currency of the country; but it shonld have been observed, that at that very time a change r;as going on, that the va lue of the currency hail fir some time been rising, and that the price of commodities had not then accom mo.lated themselves to that increased value ; to look teerely at the apparent difference between paper and dd of t; or ti per cent. n not the right view of the ei•t:vetrlte:hia‘etaitsdbliplilisthea.t. to.itehetillielahtote.e aminoutnhteofifrsttheplolaecper.scient i t i, h c e tai d i e . preciati on of paw. id depreciation of gold and silver asTalpiep:iekdnteowc_otthn.:adi.... d su ub bj c e u c i t t . e p o. t . h i ll a ao t cs i ce o ' n of the metals t c g i o e r t e s n s ; p e com p arison with f the system, which, commencit o' with the origin ofb a - 1: - very of the American mines, and th e perlolu sun greater depreciation by the beginnine tl4 did not make itself "grentl: . felt *till the sos.l„ m , o f 4 , 1 ' American war, which increased with the in T er li r e as fa e c o il f i l ty_ cal of t:re, went of country banks and with the restriction on tee thel ian e k n o d f n of t is sh g iyiae l sd i t t e n la i ni l si , teb a ues n aian d iri tt a r id. r ifl i d : i:et ei t l tga a oos t itidh i f t e s tnici. to lieir t icc o : l l. : h : vo t tiejanell h bet i attliaw i ruit: ility oiace ocuotnbt Continent, c a t i o t m h e i a f d r front the sanie mines effecto faallstonearsic thea. because if one million could be made to go u far at two, it operated in depreciating the correnev of then. tent of two.—(blear, hear.)--The fa dceartti"aillittbyywriatthinstorliic'lainaksfairian'tle: at simi lar orge utl e e i n tec ian t; e, s r i,i th e e t an ipre y c t ia im ti e oi l i o , ro t c l u ie r r e er n o to re n , ey w o a p s e i r in a t te t d o li i k k 7 e ! s r i o nnsi . eil i: 7the • ne). e k, were difference between paper and gold—Of re o_ which, however, was in itself at one tittle v er y me !. derable. By the evidence of the Il bie3 her for Ipswich (Mr. Ilaldimand), it n .p u p e ra iri d t t i l t ois win d i i i tire lielbtiecefi:oa funnel a t t ha o t ne ti t i i i i r: (i t - bi : en singular ~-oas te at change in the price of commodities, amd especially of agricultural produce. From 17 , 55 t., l;y6, when, according to hint, the depreciation first ca nimma d, the average price of tt heat was 535. or sfis. per fituor t, r , which was as nearly as possilile the price of the re. sent day. "'riot' 1796 to 1;420, a period of 22 ream the average price had been :465, or S7l. Ti ler h a d altered the currency, and had bruit lit had; wheat to its old price; but the mischief was, that at the hewer period 565. for Wheat was a good remunerating price, hut now the farmer could not live under it, when many out-goin .: ,e, private inctuuhrances, front which scarcely any family was free, and the great sweepisc . mortgage over all. the National Debt, remained ib they were when Corn was bOs. or 90s. The effects if the rise of the value of the currency had beet Est t ably and prophetically described by Dr. Coplestome, who thought, however, that all these inconveniences should he endured for the sake of the object. In sack a state of things, how could it be no:Amended that; greater alteration should be made in the currency than good faith mortired? What faith required shouldle done ; but nothing should be yielded to the mere cor• motility of desiring a purer standard. If the couture had bad no debt, and they had merely sat as umpires to say what should have been done between debtors and creditors, he should have not 11r,it.,tril to ban sanctioned a departure from the old st.tmlard. Ile should have taken the pound sterling (not now pretend• ing to speak accurately) at 15 or 16 shiliings. But the question of public faith intervened. It mild not be tinuilityd that the public creditor, and to all whom money was due, had been benefited to the et• tent of the change in the value of money.—lt mint he said that during- the depreciation they Lad bees injured to the same extent.—(blear, hear, bear.)—He did not svy that an argument might not be raised Ott the subject, but the creditor received more than the debtor could afford. 'f he effect was, that the intim• tritons were bli g es! to labour tinder difficulties, th it the drOIIPS might live in the greater.afflutenee. Ile used the term drone merely to describe the operation of tile system, not to convey the idea that justice should not be done. Of tine two operations of raising and lowering the value of the t urreto•y, .the latter was certainly better than the opposite, because the lower ing of the value of the (tummy was cheat:ng the drones. The person who had any thing to sell found the value of bi-! goods increasing:: the titan whit hall to buy found the value of his money dimitlishine. The operation (lie was speaking of interest, nut of honesty) was advantageous to the country. The Her. filetnher for Poitarlington told them that the change of the vaine of the currency immediately had its effect on all commodities. But the effect could not penetrate into all parts of the country, or change habitual ex pences. If he was going to York, and gave a post. boy, two shillings and sixpence, who was accustomed to get three shillings, the man would think him a shabby fellow, in spite of his political eronotny.— 'I he manner in which the value of the pound steiline could be settled with justice to debtors and c reditors was, by considering its average value for a certam length of time r —say seven years ; because the east bulk of contracts would be found to have been mad within that time. Ile was not himself 'odd enongh to recommend a departure from the standard : but he meant to propose the anointment of a Conottiore above stairs, to consider this subject; anti lie before he sat down, state folly, as be tlionglit hs. duty in fairness, the objects which urged hi ui to rtal: that proposition. For the evils belungi tie to the l:rt *sent system. he had two remedies to p ro pose. The first was to render permanent, what he hoped he might without disrespect, call Ricardo's Mo. The perma nent establishment of this system would, isolee.t. serve for the perfect preservation of the stamb ir st . value; for, estimating the currency of the cuuntr! at about twenty-five millions of notes, if bullion vete only to be paid to those who held 100/. or in notes, it wied s!. it was generally atimitte :.'• sufficient far the Bank to he provided with thise millions of bullion to supply any probable _, a laacc between Bonk Paper and that article. Jim lc . . the utmost, he conceived from four t• - . 1 five milituus el bullion would he amply S'll/11:1211: for that purpose.--. The advantage of this system v. ots:-I be to give ties to the Bask, and it was to be recollected, that " 1 ' : facilities given to the • Ita•t!: were fvcilitit•s " the country, whose watos it a as the d::ty of the I:00 to consult, and whose act on:mo.:4;i in it wa, the ditty of the Bank to promote • fur throo. , ll the ot es t a blist; i . eot of this :v Cat sts•ni the :h would n ever be expose to those sudden ilcosatals, •.r to have what was teriatif " ruts upon it, - to whit I, it must be liable Veen...! upon to pay in coin. This was a v:•ry material consi; . deration, lie begged Gentl 'two to think, in the prese .ii state of the public mind, especially fr om the re: th• tint; of what load happened within som e y ears bac k From the increased suspic.in, indeed, which the is eurrence of those years , st err calculated to exc:te. • • well as from the increased t otes.; o f circulating tord"": occasioned by shore sit() millions of &h!. i t wa s floosie necessary to guard Cie Bank aj..init the 414. t i iatiosit s.. B.tNK C PAYMENTS A(" N. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of tlae EX CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into s Com mittee on these The Right lion. llentleman stated, that by the Bill of 1819, the Bank ot . England were entitled, at their option, to issue Cold Coin on the Ist of May, 1822, and were bound to resume Cash payments on the let of May 1823. On that day the Bank of England would become bound to give current coin in payment of their notes. The only alteration which it was his intention to propose in the Act was this: by the Bill of 1419, the Bank hail not the power of making pay ments in cash previous to the Ist of .lay, 1922. lie would propose to take off that restriction, and to five the Bank the power of issuing gold coin in payment of any demand. The House wonlil see that his pro position amounted to this—to enable the Bank to do that nosy, which by the Act of 1519 they would he enabled to dii in May, 1822. The Right !lon. tien tleman said, that he looked upon the measure s% hick he now proposed as affording a more easy and gradual preparation for the liiial resumption of cash paymenti. But it was not intended by that measure to restrict the Bank of Englaoil as to the circulation of a single pound note—that wits to be left to the sole discretion of the Bank. The Right Ilou. Gentleman next i observed, that by the drain which was made in Eng land on other countries for the precious metals (in order to enable the Country to resume Cash Pay- • ments) an effect was produced unfavourable to i Co ttttt icree—berause that drain rendered the Oren- i ;alien of other countries more restricted. Instead of the productions of Foreign countries, large qmintitiesof ' Bullion had been lately imported as so now!' merchan-, (lite in exchange for our produce. The Right liononr- i able Gentleman next said, that it would he seen by the Accounts on the Table of the House, that the Bank had carried into execution the suggestions made by the lout- 1 mittees of both !louses in the year 1t419. In June, 1819, the circulation of the Batik amounted to 25,600,000/. In the half year ensuing, it nits reduced to 24,7011,01 Mi making a difference of 809,000/. In June following, it was reduced to 24,0e0,000i. with the exception of a fraction. Thus it appeared, that the Bank had in one year withdrawn nearly two millionsi from circulation. At the time when the Committers made that suggestion, they were too wise to make any peremptory regulation upon the subject. The circula tion at present was far from being eh:indent; it might. indeed, be true that the circulation of country paper had diminished in a greater amount than the circulation of the Bank, but he thonglo that the measure now in con -1 temptation would have the e ff ect of diminishing its eir-i I ciliation to the full extent, as much as the country was diminished. The object which the Parliament flail in view, and which the measure of Isl 9 was intended to carry into execution, was. be contended, realized as far as it had gone, a matter which afforded room for con gratulation. The simple object of his Bill was to en able the Bank to issue coin at any extent they might wish, for the accommodation of the public. The !louse would recollect, that it hail been agreed on that the Bank should be paid ten millions before it should be called upon to sane gold. Those instalments hail been regularly paid by Governmeut to the Bank; he was happy to sae. that the last instalment would be paid on 1 the sth of April. or shortly after. Titus the whole sum of ten millions would be liquidated, and liquidated in a manner which put less restriction on circulation, I and which created less of public inconvenience than he had foreseen, or than the count ry could have hoped for. There was another consideration connected with the subject, and one certainly of great importance; he al luded to the inquiry far the prevention of forgery. Those inquiries did not lead to the wished-for result : tint be yet hoped, that if not altogether successful in producing an inimita!de note. yet that a noir would be produced which would be far less li a bl e to h il ita. tion than the note nun' in circulation. There was lone most effectual way of putting an end to the crime : of forgery, namely, for the Bank to rut phi in cirri'- : lation instead of small notes. lie knew that if it should be found necessary to put notes of one pound lin circulation at all, they would be on a more lin proved principle, though it might not he possible to I snake them inimitable. He would now beg to state 1 more fully the ri utp!e operation of thy measure be