The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-05-09 00:00:00

) 'I ; 1. r b. •/ referred to other papers that the House, a few-nights ago, determined should not be printed, and which, without such reference, could not be understood.— They also stated, that the withdrawing this paper from the table of the House to which the Members of the Committee had access, and sending it to the printer's, would cause a delay in the proceedings of the Commit tee. The omtion for printing it was then negatived with out a division. THE STATESMAN. ir. i 1 i ~v he was inclined to think it as favourable as 1 ,-, 'hat when ordering articles to such an enormous amount, could he obtained. lie agreed with his Hon. Friend that he was only running into expences that would who spoke last, that th,ngh ne triumphal arches lead to unpleasant discussions, that a great deal mi.tht were necessary, yet in a public imildin 4 of that na- be saved. What occasion was there that his Royal lure there ought to be a degree of magnificence in its , Highness should send to the upholsterer, the fund °momenta Wei-orations. lure man, &c.? No man could suppose that he Sir J. YORKE said. that while lion. Members could occupy his attention with such frivolous ob were diffeling about decorations to new buildings, jets. He denied any wish to interfere with the in he must beg to remind then, that there was an old tenor economy of the Royal Household, or to et public building in thi, metropolis that was still un- amine, the cooks or turnspits ; but he would ask, Nese.° re ie E. finished. lle meant Somerset-House, which was left 'was there equal profusion displayed even in the ex- Sir W. CURTIS presented a Petition from St. in such a state in some part of it as to be a disgrace penditure of the Continental Princes? And after Martin's-le-Grand, in favour of the Act now petal- to the country. . all, it was impossible to rival foreigners in show; big for a new Post-Office. 1 Mr. WES CERN objected to the Bill on the there was something in the habits of this country Mr. SU MN Ell presented a Petition against it. ground of the immense expence, which, under our which did not admit of it; but still about the British Mr. BENNEI'T presented a Petition from several present financial difficulties, the country was ill able ' Court, as it once existed, there was a chastened and debtors in the King's Bench. lie stated that the to bear. He was particularly adverse to the appli- dignified splendour which excited more real respect complaint of the Petitioaers was the great hardships cation of the Orphans' Fund towards the erection of than glitter or show could produce. The House surely they endured in consequence of no person being ap- this building, on the same grounds as the Hon. Gen. would not sanction that enormous and merciless ex pointed to fill the office of Judge of the Insolvent tleman who first objected to the second reading (Mr. , penditure which the papers disclosed. While the Debtors' Courtein the room of the late Mr. Serjeant Gordon). people felt that they paid liberally for supporting Pal ner ; that many- of them had • been confined much Mr. C. LONG supported the Bill. 'the dignity of the CrOwn, they did expect that it longer thin the law required, and than they ought to Mr. WESTERN explained. ' should show something like sympathy for them in have been; and also that they were Put to the additional ! Mr. BANK ES admitted that• the present Post- their present •burthened state. He concluded with expellee, •and a further delay of their deliberation, by ' Office was not large enough, though it cstutinued to moving, that the Committee be empowered to send being obliged to deliver fresh notices. The Petition be conducted with a dispatch that was truly admirable. for and examine Mr: Marsh ; of the Lord Chamber was ordered lo lie on the table. ' He was, notwithstanding all he had heard and read lain's Office. Lord A. HAMILTON presented Petitions from on the business, clearly of opinion that it would Lord CASTLEREAGH regarded the present mo the City of Glasgow, and from Hamilton and other be better the business should stand over for the lion as an appeal from the judgment pronounced by places, pra) ing, for a repeal of the Corti Laws.—Or. ; present. . , the House on a former eight, uncalled for by any dered to lie on the table. I Mr. BUTTERWORTH was clearly of opinion thing that had passed in the Committee, and an un- NEW POST-MI.IM I that the new plan of a Post-Office was the best and necessary departure from that respectful mode of Sir J. SHAW moved the Order of the. Day for the ' most economical that could be adopted. The busi- proceeding that had always been held towards the second reading of the Post-Office Bill. Be begged ness of the Post-Office had long been and still was , Crown. The Noble Lord. then entered into a va. the attention of the House to a few observations he on the increase, and the repairs of the old building rimy of statments respecting the espenditire in the• wished to make, though he observed the Report oft cost Government for many years past upwards of Lord Chamberlain's department. He contended-thit the Committee was so clear that it was almost need- 60001. annually. He was convinced that a new Of. ; the Committee, in 1812, had allowed an addition of less. Four several plans had been submitted to the fice was absolutely necessary, and he thought St. 24,0001. to the estimate of .1804, as not being Comniittee / each of which differed from the other in Martin's-le-Grand the best situation that could be founded on any practical examination. There was the amount of the expence. That which they had obtained for it. i an obvious explanation of the great expenditure of preferred would amouut: to the sum of 244,1001. Mr. IL SUMNER said he had not abandoned any the last three quarters. The expence incurred by which, though higher than the others, yet it combined of his former opinions ; he was not convinced that the the visit of the Sovereigns was 13 2 ,0001.• deducting I so Many advantages, that the House would, by the expences would not be far greater tban ehe estlriate; this from the exceeding in the expence of these three slightest examination of the Report, see the reason i but he was perfectly convinced that even if a neces- quarters, and there would be about 90,0001. of ee ls which had determined the Committee to decide in its sity could be proved for this new building, this was traordinary expenditure. Of this there was between favour.. , .In the course of last Session some Hon. not the time to propose it. He insisted on his right 15 and 20,0001. for the establishment of the Princess, Members, who did think favourable of the measure, to differ with the Committee, and still remainetiof Charlotte. There were other charges, which re-' had .stated that the expense would be from 7 to opinion that the old Office; with the additional duced the whole exceeding to 60,0001. which he was ! B t g, /,000 1 . Had that opinion been f oun d to' b e erne ground that could be obtained for the purpose, if prepared to admit was the extraordinary expenditure real, he owned that in the present state of the carried to the extent of 40.000 square feet, which of these three quarters. He would also admit, that ' finances of the country he for one would not have could • be easily done : such addition would be made in this department there was an exceeding in . the agreed to it; but it would be found by the Report at far less expence than the new plan. • ' whole of three years, of from 80 to 90,0001. But that the sum he had above stated was accounted a fair After some observations from Sir WM. CURTIS, the Right Honourable Gentleman aggravated this by 1 estimate: end as the Committee were convinced of and others, the House divided. adding to it the 100,0001. which the Prince Regent the necessity of anew building in a more convenient . Ayes - - . 149 , N ues . 70 received for outfit. But the House should recollect situation, for the purpose of more advantageously Majority 79 that while his Royal Highness acted as restricted transacting the business of this very important branch CIVIL LIST EXPENCES. Regent, he never received any thing from Parliament of the revenue, he-had felt it his duty to 'concur in On the re-opening of the Gallery, whatever, thoegh additional expence was necessarily the Report. lie concluded by moving that the Bill Mr. TIERNEY was observing, that the lateness entailed upon him. When unrestricted, that his be now read a second time. of the hour would make his observations short. lie creditors, as Prince of Wales, might not suffer, he Mr. GORDON objected to the motion, on the never entertained strong hopes of any ip ,; o o t e b rs ek4 appropriated one-half of , his income as Prince of be ground that the public ought not to called on to done by a Committee with circuensoribed ..-- Wales, about 60,0001. a year, to their payment. I pay such a sum of money without a strong case The great object of such a Committee should be to Neither was the 100,0001. granted by way of outfit being made out of the necessity of building such a ascertain how the expenditure of the:Civil List was applied to the equipment of his Royal Highness, but I Pest-Office at all. On that head there had been no attended to — how to prevent t h ee v il s o f ex ce s s , a n d a ppl ie d to t h e liq u i dat ion of his debt [Hear, hear!]; , qiestiou 'whatever asked by the last Committee, but to settle what were the rearnable bounds of the exe by which means the 0,0001. a year devoted to the! they had merely referred to 'he Report cif the former penditure of the Kneel Family. In the Coalmine* parterot of debt, would be a year and astral( sooner 1 Committee, and P*Pll in that there was, in his opi. ihe had succeeded in some instances, but had been at the disposal of the public. The -Prince Regent's i ;Dion, no cause made o ut which would justify the 1 unseccessful in others, which were important., It equipment, the plate, for instance, could not be, house in giving countenance to the Bill. The Post. had always struck him that there was a want of that made in a day ; and instead of. being defrayed Office had.been.carried on for many years in tie pre. necessary vigilance and superintendance over the ex- eat of the 100,0001., ite was thrown into .the sent situation in which it stood, with ever) advan. penditure of the Civil List, which alone could pro. Lord Chamberlain's department. His statement tage to the public. It was true, Mr. Freeling, when vent the occurrence of such heavy arrears. Oa this was, that the whole exceeding of the three years was' before the Committee, bad stated, that they had f point lie had before said so much that he did' not 90,0001.; now if you set against that the 100,0001. ; wanted a new Post-Office for a long timee but they I then desire to detain the House upon it; bet the for outfit, applied to the payment of debt, and by.i cold not prevail with the City of London to agree to excess had now risen to an alarming extent. He which the 60,0001. per annum would be sooner re it. before. He could not but be a little surprised was satisfied that Gentlemen most see the necessity tiered, you would have upon the wholes-a saving of that the City should all at once come forward and of hewing oral testimony on these subjects, and not 10,0001. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, why join their aid to the Government in saddling the pub. merely papers; and he was sure, in that view of the did not the Prince Regent use the plate of the Sow.- 1k with an enormous expe ll ee at the moment wheu subject, they most be inclined to vote with him,—lin • reign ; but how could he strip his father and his fa the burdens under which they l a b our ed were so grea t. the li s t of expenditure the department he should par- ; mily of their plate ? Of the 39,0001. expended on He objected also to the reason assigned by the City ticularly allude to was that of the Lord Chamber- furniture, it should be recollected that 17,0001. was for now agreeing to this measure, because great part lain, which he should do without any invidious view. for furnishing what was called the cottage at Wind of the money was to be taken from the Orphans' The charge of furniture for.Carlton-(louse alone sor. A great deal of ridicule had been thrown on Fund. He denied that the City had a r i g ht t o a pply during two years and three-quarters was 160,00(1., the name, most unfairly. It might be called a cot that Fund to this particular purpose, and said the exclusively of the 100,0001. voted on the motion of (age, because it was thatched; but the fact was, consequence would be a continuance of the tax on Mr. Perceval for an out-fit. This made 260.0001.: that though not a residence for a •Monarch, it was a i coals and wines imported into the port of London' Mr. Perceval stated that the extra expence was for ! very comfortable one for a family ; and the only one for three years longer than it ought to continue, plate and other ornamental matters. What had be. ; which the Prince could snake use of when he visited which would he la) ing an additional burden on the come of the King's plate ?—The upholstery expences • Windsor. The public had been put to no additional inhabitants of the Cite of WeitmillSter and the parts were last year 49,0001. Or moulu was charged 29001. expence for the residence of the Prince Regent.— adjacent to London, for tlue benefit and advantage of china and glass 12,0001., linen-drapery, &c. an ; Had he, when exercising the power of the Sovereign, the more distant parts of the empire. lie sifted the enormous sum; the silversmith and the wardrobe oc. 1 and not wishing to reside in a great capital, establish evidence of Mr. Hacker and other witnesses who had casioned charges to an immense amount; the former ied himself at Kensington or Hampton Court, it been examined, and observed that they were all in no leas than 130,0001. in three years. There was a I would have cost the country a great deal of money to some degree belonging to the Post-Office, and when delicacy due to the Royal Family, but a faithful' prepare either of these palaces. It was most unjust one part of their evidence was compared with another, Parliament could not better discharge its duty than •to compare the Civil List of England with the even it appeared to him to be little better than &delusion. by guarding against unnecessary expenditure, which ' 'diture of Continental Princes. A million a year was ' He adverted to that part of the Report which had was indeed ueequalled in Europe For the expences of voted by the French Legislature to the King 'of stated that the new building should be devoid of or- the foreign Sovereigns there was 50,0001. The average 1 France and his family, merely for supporting the element, from which he differed as much as he did to of expellee for pl a te a nd j ew els was 23,0001. a year.' splendour of the Crown, while one half of our Civil the adoption of the measure at all. If we were to To whom did th a t pl a t e b e t ong e—Behelieved many' List was appropriated to very different purposes.--. , have new buildings on which 234,0001. was to be ex. of the items ought to be charged individually to the; Concealment of accounts was not the policy of Mi. pended, he thought, that as a public edifice, it ought Prince Itegent,who hada privy purseofebove7o,oool. ! nisters, but they would resist the system•of bringing , to have the advantage of ornaments and deeorations. ityear. to •1312, Mr. Marsh gave in a satisfactoey ' all the interior details of the palace before the pub. It was true he would not wish to see the entrance re- , account respecting the mode in which furniture was ' lic,by means of oral examination. The Noble . Loid sembling.a triumphal arch, but he would have the : provided for th e palaces. . Noweet elistinotinte was, had to state, however, that - for the purpose of watds ornanetnts such as to distinguish a public building of made between the palaces occupied by the King, or . ing the expenditure of the Civil List, a warrant hadt this t ;lid from the gloom of a prison, or the melan- Prince Regent, and the other Royal Houses ; so I recently passed the Privy Seal, directing that esti. cboly appearance of an hospital. His main objection, that there was no security against the expences of 1 mates of every expenditure should be given in to a however, was to the very great expense. at a period those occupied. Mr. Batikes's Bill, in fact, became I responsible officer, whose approbation and order. when the country was 50 little able to bear it, and; as a dead letter. These circumstances of expence would i should be essential to every tradesman for the pay., such beshoold divide the House on the second reading throw some light on the question on which so much 'meta of his accounts. He was surprised that the, ofehe Bill, had been said respecting the ()dcers of the Household I Right Hon. Gentleman should have asserted that I 'Mr. HA M MERSLEY said he .had carefully ex. being independent of the Ministers. He then ad- 'there was no coutrool, when this warrant was one of 1 avnOsed, with the other Members of the Committee, verted to the numerous allowances to Ambassador*. the Papers before the Committee. -- [Mr, Tierney seeelenee r ous and great inconveniences attendant-on He believed that instead of the usual allowance of said he had seen no such warranq e -The Noble • the olte Post-Office. Great numbers of the valuable plate, some of the Ambassadors took money.-- Lord, on consulting his colleagues, found it had n oel servants of the ('rovcsrnment, employed in tarrying , There was a Mr. William Rill, an Envoy, whose yet been produced, but added, it should be laid be en this truly beneficial branch of the revenue, were name he had never heard, who had 37001. for plate; fore the Committee to-morrow.--[ifenr, hear !J— , abut up in close rooms, dirty, and covered with and there was a Right lion. Gentleman, the Am. The Right Hon. Gentleman would, therefore, find smoke, so that their health must be in danger one bassador to Lisbon, who received 35001. for plate; the system he recommended Row acted upon. eisould almost think from suffocation. It had beau and so . much for Obtet, together with his 14,0001. Lord YARMOUTH said, that bef ore hi s R o y a l o bliged to be enlarged from time to time, and was aof sal ary ;so that for one year lie would make a• Highness was made Regent, his quantity o f plate rims' Of old' hau l ses taken in and added at different very g oo d thi n , t' o f it.—[A—[Alaugh.]—When Lord was extremely small ; and he wee persuaded that the periods, periedv, which rendered the communication of one Cathcart went Ambessodor to Petersburgh, Meow House would not have wished to see his Royal High. office- with another extremely difficult, and eery often derstoo4 be did not lake the plate, but 44001: la, sees reduced to the necessity of biting plate from all apparently dangerous to persons under the necessity . stead of it. Upon the whole, he thought he had the silversmiths of Loudon. The King had leht hii ef possingeeniutste from one to another. The par- made out a sufficient case. ' His 'object' wale to put plate to different branches of the Royal Family, and 'eager, alts,. were so narrow and ill eentrivede that, the contrail of "he Household expenditure in the it was necessary that his Royet Highness, when he is he hadlimm'informed, there were eeveral hundreds hands of responsible peesone. No men was more became Regent, altpuld make an addition to his there at et thikeie the course of the day, it .wasatrer willing that the Crown should eeeidy becoming spleu. stela. 4 4. : , . &Wog -Amy should come off witheot broketertieetitiL doer, but it shotikl:bieregniated ley etrici economy. Mr. WYNNE was unable to express his alto . rith respect to the new Post-Office, he thank,* ; --He belieeed that if , the Prince Regent had some uishment at tbat part. of the Noble Lord's speech, necessity of it , Alas : apparent - P andas'to its situation, * honest 'deism about him, wbo ehoul4.remiud him' wherein he claimed a Merit for the misapplication of . a sum of moue) votrrl by Parliament for a nat : titalitr . p irpose. The Act of Parliament granted it to his Ittryal Highness for dectly in. ; his expellees on b,.. comitu, Ite4eut ; and he desired to know Woo It 'w e e that advised his linyal Highness to apply it • to'its.:' other purpose? Ile saw no reason why 100,IAL might not, as well b taken from the Mom t seed for the services of the navy. The N .bleli.ril litd •Aidi that to grant this motion would be an innovation o f , the Constitution. This was a doctrine never very 0 ,-- boldly brought forward, and 'gentlemen in inferior departments hid generally been selected to twat- the .....- assertion. For 400 years, these enquiries had hem exercised by the House; and, in 1780, a ma j or i ty had declared, that it had right to eimniste into the • If abuses of the Civil List, as well as into all otherde. partments. The House should give greater pee n to the present Committee, in order to render their labours more effectual than on former r...c.!sioni. None of the articles removed had been accounted for; PI and the House were justified in presuming that there rt had been an abuse. The Committee sho u ld, th ere .. Oil : fore, be enabled to examine persons virnhoce. for 84 eta-, it was by such means only the abuses in the Navy ,;.ot had been detected. . Lord CASTLEREAGH explained. Mr. ROSE contended, that no precedent could be I found for granting the motion. In all former ap- plications respecting the Civil List, accounts had been furnished, but in such a way as to throw Do light whatever on the sobject.—Uhar, hear 4-... At present very minute details had been. given, and every one that looked at them 'might judge of the r state of the Civil List without examining **itmlatet F viva voce. K Mr. COURTENAY opposed the motion. Nit ma Mr. PETER. MOORE supported the motion I A , jamidst cries of Question. I nv I Mr. LONG said, that there would not have bees any excess, if the 100,0001. had been appropriated lin the manner intended. As to the furniture, pa r t o f C it had been sent to Cumberland Lodge, and the re. tee • mainder was reserved for future purposes. The' e on Right Hon. Gentleman had not made out a suffi c i en t W SO I case; and if the House were to consent to his tau.' ten ' tion, he would afterwards call for other witnesses. • . Mr. TIERNEY replied at considerable lertgik,..o.. nore N He contended that to refuse enquiry would only ear• 1114 . courage the Crown to ruts into debt. He desired the . House to look at the names of the present dom. ! mittee, and to say, whether they expected them to G rake out any of the abuses, He had proved all he wanted, and he admitted, that if he could teemed ti, it e • in procuring the examination of Mr. Mar s o s he sh ou ld se Sh wr call for other witnesses. fliesshoultproceed step by br s' step; and as he had made Out a calein the L o rd Pla G Chamberlain's Department, it Sete"More thin pre. sar i bable that be should have to investigate triusactious met in the offices of the Lord Steward and Master of the A of ( Horse. When the 100,0001. was voted to hit R.oYsi • tr.l .iblighness, er at was i he had expressly asked Mt. Pelee,* Om.: T hlr Q pay his Royal Highness's debt, rlll*. t.. , , answer ifes, N 9 ; it was for his outfit. for ftis.r*,; tri, niture, plate, &c. The Noble Lerd had spoketret . ' the indelicacy , of these enquirier 4. .but, if any bete E , tar the had dragged his Royal Highnesa.iat t ethe mire, it 4as: far, the Noble Lord, who had euteresi,into a Wages.: ON planation of the Prince's debts. When his Rnaof $ Highness became itegent, his debts maimed ii• saw wit 300,0001.; but this was carefully concealed from the to House, .who . ottght to have paid the Prike's debts as d as they had paid those of his father. The Privy Parse KO not sufficiently Ivan* d (_or; in this, as 3 in many .other transactions, thers was somethieg Gai kept behind.. The Noble Lord now said, that theta le.) should be some Ansperintendance, and had asked, e. , 111 oili why he did not bring the warrant down; but r hea .e.t, he (Mr. Tierney) asked Where the warrant was, the tt,e , Noble Lord entietered; it should tie - Sent to.morraw. T —[Hear, hear!]—Mr. Marsh, however, knew how ben the excess arose, .and it was necessary, nut only fni• N I' the security. of the people,. het foe., the character of the Crown, that he should lie examined. The Noble Lord had eapected.it to be a day ist:grand displaildi his part, but it now seemed to rest entirely ere& warrant, which, instead of being siontnp stair*, el . kept down stairi.—Hear,. hearri—Parliament , ought to amok their sense of such gross misconduct ; and it was too much to say, while the Property Tax lasted, and tradesmen were dragged before a set of Com- , missioners, who were authorised to examine their books and investigate the whole of their traniaction., that the affairs of the Crown were not to de enquired into. • • The question was then called for, and the House divided,— . For the notion 119 I Against it 175 1 Majority 56. J , Adjourned at two o'clock. . . I . i . , Admiral Sir G. COCKniine heke acrived . frim Ame• 9 rica in the Albion. The Aria has also arrived, and at the rest of the squadrou may be daily expected. 1,0 A most alarming storm took place on Tuesday, the 2d inst. at Addington, a village about three miles Ql from Croydon. A waterspout descended ou the hii l 3, • and burst about a mile above it. . The waler pourer' in torrents, from. the he4ghts, and rosMartecrA r r ( Talley, formed a rapid stream of 50 feet Nei& " el took its way with irresistible force—throogh 00 a ils village, forced open the doors, and carried W 4 * it furniture of the habitations. A, house tisti4o o .l , at torn away from the garden.wall of the .4.4101 10 P: 4 , 1 ,_ m of Canterbury, who resides on the spot, ihtlittlen AI whelmed, and sows and pigs carried away, Neal , se which were drowned. Tombstone* • mere. try!*d from the churchyard, Auld the liven orael'acatfo r ' s se sons endangered' . This deluge., accomPaititii , abi et th,iider and lightning, continued for upwards of tire 4 boors, and then sebsided, but has leftatlamentab le ss ii swamp in the neighbourhood. A weals diri"P bad 4 clung with her child to the top of a footing Wolf"v t, was nearly drowned at the moment the waterstatan 0 to subside. Among the , sufferers flake • el was a. Mr. -.-__ la goo, who hes lost a considerabloiag aan tity of lug stock, including cows andpigs a ngelleu earn mid 6 ",.." a 0 chinery. The publio.house.of the tillage also sale * fered much by the loss' of 'furniture ' spirits, beer, ic. 11 The damage ,occasioned on the land- over which the G waters rushed, is incalculable.. Foristostely, WI - A ever, no lives were lost. T-hirtemalsorstst•iusAu lle ! a l which were immersed to their heads were moat''' • . , ..- ..4,...;.e.i ... ...4 all /it IN. ), ~ lAA Datr k ! r os ri r snt i ee w." 44 o7F oli c ts s ee 7. F tor ket ea .s .r ea re .. i .4 l:. - . 4 er '.l4 : ' I` • • • . 4 44 . • • . • • •• • 4.. 4 •••••••••-•..•- . ..• 4