The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-02-17 00:00:00

? It ltaik 00 0 meal * at i;4111. Iwo r Mid , O RO TKfi STATESMAN. vices and Contingencies,while the amount was 208,000/. The charge fur old stores was 40,0001. at the very 'no. 'vent, too, when they were selling most valuable stores. Ile trusted the House would obtain some information as to the Irish Establishment of the Ordnance. The ex iense of that at Dublin atnnnnted to 7,6601., while the amount of the expenditure for the artificers end la bourers through all Ireland did not exceed 6,7601. In the stating all these particulars, he did not blame •the Hon. Member. He found fault with the system. The important fact was to be recollected, that these officers received larger pay at that moment than during a period of extended warfare, when the ten per cent. Income Tax was deducted from their salaries. Taking also the increase of the value of money at 2:1 or 31) pr rent. lie might say that their salaries had been in er-i.sell full 40 per cent.--{Hear. hear.) —Ile had no hesitation in saying, tbat under a proper system, he could see his way to a reduction of the present galling taxatiou to the amount of five millions. lie recant weeded that consideration to the Noble Lord oppo site (Castlereagh.) Let hint not be deterred by any apprehensiuns of the loss of patronage, fur he may .depend on it, that the fewer good things of that kind he bad to give away, the gseater the favour would be in the distribution.—ale then proceeded to remark upon the list of compenta t ons, and said it contained the nausea of many persons who bad not served longer peii.)ds than two, four, or rive veers. This, however, Was quite consistent with the whole of the system which he had felt it his duty to point out thus minutely to the attention of the tloiia ; he trusted there would he no objection to the motion which he was 110 W to submit, and if the M ilieu able tientlensen opposite thought proper to con- I:ie information required by th it motion, he hoped th.: details would be printed at once, and iii such a way, as to afford the information in' thr mist sell shape. lie conclude by moving, that the Estimates far the present year be submitted t.) tbe House hi detail, iiistiugui-hing in separate the amount of salaries to all officers, with the paizi. ular salary to each, the amount of expense in CACI/ department, with the trait' amount of the whole, distinguishing every new °thee since the year 1793 ; Mir) that returns he made in separate columns of the ins•rease of salary and comptusation to each officer si.ae the year 1796. Lord NCItENT seconded the motion. Mr. It. WARD hail not the smallest objeetion to the After the lone statement, however, partly cor rect and partly most incorrect, which the Hon. Member hail presented to the House, a few observations were absolutely necessary. Ile (Mr. Ward) certainly ruse nad-r circumstawes of great disadvantage to reply to Liar !statement, becitose, from the notice which he had r.n tired, lie had nut been prepared to expect that state ment. Having been asked by the Honourable Metnber cm,,,mosite whether he bad any objection to detail the par ticulars of the hrg item in the estimate, the item of 120101. and having replied in the negative, the Howse would judge of his stet-prise at being suddenly called u onto answer all the accusations whiois the voluminous paperof Mr. Hume contained.--(hear.) Still he was bound to answer those accusations ; anti from memory, for with documents he was miprovided, he would reply to them as well as be was able. Now, in the first hens of the _ Member's (:4r. Hume's) charge, there wee the grea t e st possible error. The lion. Ahnnher stated to tha House that, aceorililig to the estimate, only 3.0001. had been abated of the charge of the last year. If the Hon. llemhzw would takc the.tronitle of examination as well a, aceusetion, lie %stead tiol a reduction o f 53,0001. Mr. lII' ME, across the table, gave some explanation which did not reach us. Mr. WA RD.-1 f the Hononralm!e Memlser aban doned the point, be would pursue it no further; but be should shew the House that throughout every item in the estimate, except the article of civil super. annuations—in every other item there was reduction ; and that the whole reduction amounted to 33,'100!.: the Ilmetour..ble lientlemen opposite might shake their heads, but spin that point be was impregnable. Es coo dire wades: if the Hun, Member for 31ontrose could make a mistake of 30,0001. in a sum of I,300,01:0/. what errors might he not have committed in time long detail of figures which he had laid before the Houses. The employment of labourers as servants had been objected to. It might he an objectionable practice.; hut it was lint an abuse, for it was a system which had been avowed and upon for 30 years, and the services of a labourer now formed, by usage, part of the eitiolninent Otos to an officer. It happened, however, that the noble person at the head of the ordnance derartinent u..s, up to a certain point, of the saute opiiiion with the Honourable Member ; he thought the practice a had one, anti was taking mea l Ur's to abolish it ; the advantage was not taken from those who already possessed it; Lut care was taken taut to extend it' to new comers. As to that insulated aerusation teerhine the conduct of the Storekeeper at 84 ""erne's. the Ihmontalole Member, accusing one indi sidual of peculation, argued with his usual candour, that such was the general practice of the department. or the fact, he (Mr. Waril) knew nothing. If it were proved, the hes;des losing his situation, would certainly be punished ins way which would not he agreeable to him.—(A laugh.)—The Hoe. member situ! that the heads of departments, while cutting the sa laries of clerks at 90/. per year, had been raising their tern. Whore slid the Hon. Member find that ? He (31r,Waril) said, anti had before said, that some of the Leeds of departments !marl had their emoluments re- dueed. „ Ti n ' lion. Member," Mr. Ward continued, "Lan told the House that the salary of the Master-ge neral has been doubled : that, from 1,3001. a year, it has been made 3,0001. The fact is, that irons the time of Elizabeth to the time of the union with Ireland, the toaster of the Ordnance of England had a salary of 1.500 f. per year. Ireland also had a master of the Ord nance at a similar salary i • and at time union, in the year 1.'02, the post being beillby the Marquis Cornwallis, the situations w e r e th row n tog e ther, and the increase d sa lary followed the in d duty.—(Hear, bear, front Mr. Hntne.)—The lion. Member cries " bear, hear " but why did lie not clearly state a fact which, from his statement, was misunderstood by half the !louse, and would have been tuisnissierstooll by half the world ? The Hon. itemiser 111.0.1111 to question my assertion that the heads of departments must have bad their salaries lowered. Does he question it? Mr. es. Mr. WARD.—Then li will remove that doubt, and these wise have borne witness to the Hoe. Ileabbe's industry should now have proof of his acenvity• My ems emoluments have been decreased from 1,700 1 . per year to 1,001. An Honourable PAW. who Ills sear me is its the same situation ; Mil salary is reduced 3061. a year. TIIO tosvetary of the Board, who bad U. a day war-allowance, lost that allowance at the commeneement of the peace. In the misstatement to which I have before alluded as coming from the Ho nonrable Member, it appeared that the clerk of the ordnance hid denied that the storekeeper at Dover had not 500.1. a year. I merely stated that the storita keeper at Dover had not retired at all. I thous* the thing of no importance ; but the Hon. Mend*, coming, I suppose, to night with his explanation, tabs a singular mode of doing me justice. He has not even now stated that which is the fact, that the storekeeper of Dover has retired upon a salary of 3001. a veer. The Hon. Gentleman then went on to contend that every disposition to economy was felt in the Ordnance Department. The Duke of Wellington, since he had been at the head of its affairs, hid abolished sixty eight offices—the salaries attached to which amounted to no less than 14,0001. a year. Even the situation of Adjutant-General at Gibraltar, which had been sought after by men entitled to it from their charac ter and length of service ; even that situation had been, upon consideration, abolished. With respect to the gratuities complained of, he (IYr. Ward) had the same answer which be had applied to the complaint as to servants. At all events it was not an abuse, because it was an acknowledged and recognised prac ' trice. The addition to the salary of the Secretary to the Master-General was another point of objection; but that salary had been raised by the reduction of a' second secretaryship, and without costing the country a shilling. The powder-works at Fevershain were carried on at present, because it was found that it would be cheaper to carry on the works for a few years, than to incur the expense of removing the vast quantity of stores which the depot contained. From the statement of the Honourable Gentleman one would have supposed that the suns of 270,000'. was expended in repairs; but upon an accurate survey of the estimates, it would lie found that the whole sum so expended, in which many payments to superintending officers were included, did not ex ceed 80,01101. The lion. Gentleman had adverted to the pay of the engineer others ; but these officers were not in barrack, and hail not the allowance of coals and candles ; in lien of these extra pay was ' given them, and he could assure the house that they complained of this as too small. The next subject to which allusion hail been wade, was to the officers on half-pay. On this subject lie could assure the house, that selections were made frosts the half-pay for bleb situations, and that only subordinite ones were filled up by cadets. He would admit that the expense of the Dublin establishment appeared larger than at IYeoltriell, but under this head were included several other branches which were not brought in the accounts of the Woidwich expenditure. As to Sheerness, the expense arose from a great part of the business which was befute done at Chatham being about to be transferred thither. As to the establishment at St. John's-wood, during the war it was con sidered necessary to have a brigade of cavalry there. That barrack was still on hands, because the lease was unexpired, and be could assure the lion. Gent. that he might have it cheap if lie were disposed to take It.—(Hear, and a laugh.)-1 he lion.:_acutienaan tl.en went on to comment on the other points of Mr. Home's speech. The establishment at Trincastatee, he (Abetted; wasiept in consequence of its being con sidered necessary fur the assistance of the navy. He denied that any clerks were allowed to retire ou a full salary, after a short service. lit would advert to one more point the Him. Gentleman had said, that 560/. wis consumed in taking the remains of old stores. The fart was, that when a storekeeper was changed, lie was to give an account to his successor of the re mains of stores ; but as the successor could not be the best judge whether this was correct, a clerk was sent down to take the remains, and thin was what the Hun. Gent. had talked so much of. It was like his state ment of the retired storekeeper at Dover. Had hr not reason to complain of being unfairly treated by the lion. Gentleman, in thus introducing transactions without name or date, and taking him and the House unawares ? lie would only refer to the contrast which the Hon. Gent. had made between the present expense of the Ordnance and what it was in 1793 The price of almost every article of 'consumption was doubled since 1793 ; the pay of the artillery had been doubled ; the number of men employed hail been flow bled. The union between England . and Ireland hat! taken place since 1793—a circumstance which had added an addition of abant I 3J,110111. Additional improvements had been made ; that corps which the lion. Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. If. 0. Bennet) had on a former occasion called the sinews of war, the artillery drivers, had been added to the service ; the medical establishment had not then existed. The lion. Member had omitted to notice all these, which, if deducted from the excess of the present establish ment above the expense of 1793, would leave a very little difference.—(Hear.)—Cunsidering these circum stances, and the increase In our colonies, and our dif ferent relations with America, he (Mr. Ward) though, he might admit that some things might be cut oir s was rather astonished that the expense was so low an it was. After a few words from Sir R. Ferguson, Sir H. Parnell, and Sir Wm. Congreve, Mr. WARD explained. After which, Strangers were ordered to withdraw. We under stand that before the division took place, Lord Castle reagh and Mr. Ward pledged themselves to lay before the House, is another shape, all the information sought to he obtained by the motion of Mr. Hume. The House divided upon the first part of Mr. Humes motion. For the motion 44 Against it. Majority against it. —l4 On re.estering the Gallery, we found the SPEAILaIt proposing the other parts of the motion, which were pat and carried. Mr. WARD moved, that the Ordnance Estimates for this year be printed. Mr. HUME: opposed the motion. He had already demonstrated that &contents, consisting of wholesale sums of 10,000 i. 30,000/. and 40,000/. without de• tails, waft ry, and therefore he should oppose their beieg a g g ared, as it would only cause a issdess expense to the elmietry. Mr. HU/MI*I4ON did not understand the opposi. ties eitho Hoe. liember. The Estimates had been laid on the table is the assist form, Red his Het. Friend lied expreseed his readiness to aliotd every infeteesties . 0 Xn 0 X : I , ATVRDAT EVENENG, PLUM:AZT 17. MI. The Paris Papers of Wedneulty, which have arrivr ed this morning., do not announce any movements on the part of the Austrians. The conferences still con tinue at Laybach. As soon as they terminate, the Duke de liaLLo will he Invited to I,ny'.:aela in order to receive instructions for conveying the tilh'inattrm to Naples. There is a vague rumour iu circulation that the KING of the Two Skilies iw becoming: jealocs of the conduct of the Unholy' Alliance, that he has ex- • pressed a &sill to return to Naples, and refused to s Minion arly form of lioseramaot omaliblished-foe witliont the consent of Ilia Parliament. The FhP:PICII Fusns.—Five per Cents, S3f. 35e. Bank Actions, 14145 r. Four liottenhortr wail. hare arrived this horning. The intelligence they contain is without interest. In the House of Lords last night. an important de bate which was expected on the motion of the Marquis of Lassoowsz, respecting Foteign Trade, was vented by the indisposition of the Noble Peer. In the House of Co:anions a variety of subjects engagta attention ; and the exertions of that indefitigable mem ber, llr. licwr, in his ezrosure of the Ordnance FAH mites, cannot fail to be regarded with respect, sad productive of national benefit. Though Mr. WAND denied some of Ilse statements of his patriotic oppo nent, he took especial care to refine assent to the motion by which the grounds of the several allega tiorts would have been hrmigh, to light: and the motion was lost by a majority of fourteen. Yes various instances of extravagance remain nneonfuted, anti the motives of some of them were sufficiently made known. In the difrerent Or4lnance establish ments, it appeared there were not less than s hun dred and forty-seven lu.uses kept in repair at a con siderable expense, which were not occupied, hut let, by the penal)s for whose residence they were intemitd; and one of the floating magazines at Sheerness was 'manned by a crew consisting of jurats of Queen borou eh !!! The present Sessi in of Parliament it k reported will be closed so early as the latter end of May. The King will bold a Levee on Friday next, at his Palace in Pall-mall. The queen has appointed Monday week for the re wiring of Atlilresaes: aninnest whieb the following will be presented to her M ijesty on that flay: The parish of St. George, Gal:over-spare—Ross-- Voited Friendly Societies—Harrington—North Leach -14. 1 1adbary—Hinckley—Leicester. It is said that her Majesty is reducing her establish meal at Brandenhurgh House, limited as it is. We believe it is a fact that thtee of the English servants were discharged on Monday last. Prior* Leopold, it is said, declined residing in Lai worth Coale, though in August last, be entered into p l a negociati n respecting it. Mr. Peel, it appears, has now taken • , and enters into possession at Lady-day. Surroilt ox Din N ea.—On Wednesday a numerous party of the Noblemen and Uentlemen of Suffolk met at Mary to commensurate the birth of Charles James Pox. The particulars of the celebration we shall giwe 'on Monday. ' The Workmen are busily employed in Westminster Mall preparing for the Coronation. On boring some 011 the timbers in the roof, for the purpose of suspend. ing the chandeliers, they were nnexpectedly found in such a state of decay as to require being replaced by 'new ones. We had been long afraid that the people en gaged la this business, would bring an . old house about their ears! .• - - THE SOCIETY OR SECT OF THE CARBOoVARI, (t. I. COLLIERS.) It is known that the secret society of Mr Carlotitinti, which originates! in the Kingdom of Nlpies ahostitllln or twelve years ago, 4s now extremely thimenoosi, that those who are initiated in its mysteries are'ervead over all Italy, and even into some of the neigish.Mt ing countries. The following infornatloo . relative edu them, has been communicated to us by a literary Yea politan, who, himself, is a member of that wet • • " The Curl oat: are a kind of Masonic SeCitey ; hut they are also* sect, for the evangelical doctrine is there used, as it may be said, in support of politi cal projects ; which gives them x very rivet influence. Jcses CuaisT is, with them, a tune, which they tell in a point of view well adapted to affect the sensibility, that of a victim of the most cruel tyranny. Fresh this it results that all classes, the very lerearooi. of Naples, the country people, as well as the Moisksis 'Parish Priests, Ike. never leave the nit.etings or the society, without being edified, awl *lll'lo6'oly lendthf your to become initiated. '1 he Catbooari give Vie name of readies (i. e. markets) to these pate meet ings. 'flue Charcoal trade furnishes them with the symbolical terms they use, as the building art floes to Free-ntasons. the es presaious and forms suiepted is their lodges. " The principal °Neat for sv.hich the Cathomtri meet, is to clear the country of the role's whirl' infest it; and, by those wolves, they wean tyrants, the enemies of public liberty. They have various ranks. anti symbolic signs, among which the cross h pre eminent. Wipat they shake bands, they make the sign of the cross with the thnmb inside the band. 1. At their meetings, every thing savours of- li bertw: ;hey receive the tweet'''. of the Oospel in their five purity. It is worth while to hear the 41;•votee4 of the sect relate the miraculous conversions which it has alreatly effected. In Naples, ferocious lisszvroni, among the mountains of the Calabria, and tltt Abrns• sox, the most savage banditti, have heen aeon to prac tice, as soon as they were initiated, the most brilliant acts of benevolence and humanity. •• It is certain that in instituting this secret there was no other intention than to vise up against the French, the then masters of all the country, etted inks the more dangerous us they were secret. Sut this society so •n became r sect, which now professes the maxims of the ticspel and of liberty, in oppositiuu to tyrants of every kind and of every nation." IWhhateyer the despotic goveronsents of the north of Euroise may think they have to fear from the Cotto n:lris it is certain that of all th► means that may 14 1 practised to discredit or destroy this sect, none due be less efficacious than persecution. • OLD 8.111,EF. —Tnis lltinxt.va Artlimr Ileptonrn, alias Was. Darmost, and Esbetvrt/ Purroms, were indicted for uttering a forged note ut with intent to defraud the blovernor and Company u: he Bank of England. Serjeant liosateocer and Mr. RILYNOLDS appeared for the Bank. Hannah Stevens deposed that she lives at No. ID. Nlary-le-bone Lane ; her husband is a ropperplAt? Itleter ; remembers the prisoner Parsons coining to tb; op for souse papers and an almstiock. amlAtisitersaLias. meat a U. note ; site handed the cute to h e r his.. band, who discovered it to he a forged one; be sent fir • • •ighbour, and had the prisoner secured. Tote husband of the last evilness corroborated Nee' above, and added, that when he took the prisoner to It, door, he (ih.. prisoner) said, secure that man (eneaniee D.its soon) for I had the note of him : they were then taken to the Viratvlsiosonse. Richard Cowes, an otlicer.searehefi the prisoner I,)jor- son and foam! on his person a Mr iiiii rtibilunk I•ool6 .. trie; of which Parsons said he had taken the note sod gllrsll . to hi; Mrs. Blackman, a pastry rook, deposed, that.Panstmf! carnet() her shop, and ask e d fur a cake, for Miss Doyle. - of New Montague Square.—lie then tendered the note in question, on which she wrote the above name and ad dress, as likewise the initials tof her own name. Sh. then compared it with other notes in her possession, awl shspected it was a hail one.—site said she would send the cake. She enquired st Miss Doyle, and found that no such thing was wanted, or sent for. Miss Movie said the prisoner some years Rime lived with her rude, but hail not seen hint for some tune. A mats of the Milne of Dolby deposed, that the prisoner Parsons called upon hint at the Blue Posts, it, Boni Street, and said that aperson at the door wished teespes'.c to isim ; he went out, and Dawson asked him to pass some forged notes, and he would pay him for it ; he de clined ; Dawson urged him, and said that a good living might be gut; but he said he would have nothing to do with them. Glover proved the note to be a forgery, in every respect. Colonel Doyle rave Parsons an excellent character. The Jury haring retired for a considerable time, fino+4 both the prisoners guilty, but strongly recomnienskd Parimus to mercy. A Lid aged IS, was indicted for stealing a bee( value 35., the property of Mr. Lea, a bookseller, of cross. It appeared the prisoner went into the.sbop and • asked to look at some books, and took the opportunity when the prorecntor's b.ick was turned, to put one in his pocket.—Guilt•. recommended to tuercy. It appears by an account laid before Parliament of the total weekly amount of Bank notes and Bank post.bills in circulation, between the loth of July, IN2O, and the 6th of February Ib2l, that the follow ing were the totals at those respective period :—July IN f6,043,3'0'.: Feb. 6, 23,563.6bU1., making st., diminution of nearly 2.500,000/. the lowest antonnfT was 20,7 5 5, 460!. on the 12th of December last. Thet.is highest never exceeded that above stated on the 1211. of July. It is not generally known, we believe, that In pur suance of an Act passed last Session of Parliament, a Census of the population of Great Britain is to ;be taken this year, of which the returns are to be de livered to the Clerks of the Peace and Townt;krits by the Ilbth ofJuly. . • A lady elegantly dressed, alighted a few days ago . at the public-office, Bow-street, and !Aimed Its the Ma gistra:e's hands a book which she desired hills to read and notice. On Thursday afternoon she a' rod in the satue manner, and on the same errand, al the of fice in Marlborough-street. She rushed in the • 1 Magistrate., who were busily engaged, leti a fo:1, pamphlet, entitled, "An investigation in Cite ree zel Conduct of , formerly of Oxford, the Author of the Essay en Ooternment," and • that the Magistrates would look into the case , else described as an exposition of every Wag horrid. Mr. Fermat informed her that he u °old look at it sad she ' tastily retreated. . 0 --- whirl, the House might require ul:on them ; but bow coul•1 any Information be called Air unless the (loco ments.tbennsebrre were laid before the House? After a few words from Mr. CRREVRY, Mr. HUME *aid he would aot tress to a division, but he svot:kl take another opportuatty of introducing the subject.—The Estimates were ordered to be printed. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that if his Resolution, that it was eSsential 'to Ibe Douse. as guardians of the public purse, that the..lraiy, Navy, and Ordnance Estimates should be laid on the table within a week after the com mencement of ovary .Session of Parliament, were to be opposed, he would postpone it to Monday, if not, he would bring it on at once. On the sugltestion of the Chanrellor of the Exchequer and Mr. R. Ward., who declared that it would be utterly impossible in all cases strictly to comply with the terms of such a tesoletion, Mir .1. Newport consented to post pone it until Monday, and thee to bring it forward in a modified shape Mr. C. GRANT brought in a Bill for the better ad mipistrstion of Courts of Justice in Ireland.—ltearl a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on the Ist of 31arrlt, and to 1w printed. Adjourned at half after one o'clock this morning. THE 1/11NORITY on sta. nt Hes itoTtosi.roa • DETAILS!, ACCOUHT Of THE ORDNANCE RSTIHATNII. eernal, John Bennett, lion. 11. IL Rennet, B. Ben yon,-B. Height, W. W. Becher, H. Brougham, Rom. Britrwo, Thos. ereOrry, Hon. H. Caulfield, Jos. Denison, Wm. Brans, Right Him M. Fitzgerald, Sir It. Ferzo. son, 11. tionion, P. tirrofell. N. Graham, Lord °lento% rhy, Sir W. Guise, lion. E. liarbord, Lord A. Hill, J. V. Holihouse, Hon. C. IL linteliin.no, Sir K. Heron, J. V. Lanzton. T. 11. Leonard, J. Martin. Jas. Mac donald, J. B. Monck, Sir J. Newport, Lurd Nugent, Sir H. Parnell, It, Ricardo, lion. !tire, .1. Itoloarts, ti. J. linhurt4, Kiri of Sefton, D. Syket. J. 11. Tretonyne, M. A. Taylor, It. W. Talbot, W. W. Whitmore, W. Williams, 11. Wvvill. Tei.usas—Viscnitnt Folkestone and J. Hume. PRICE. OF STOCKS THI Rani Week 326} 1 3 prr Cent. Red. 74 73 3 per Cent. Con. ;2 4 :4 Be per Ceti 6 psr Cents. Pi !ler Ct. Navy 1031 f 3 per Cent. Low Ann. IS 13-16 lap. Sp.? Cent. Dll/ a•r ONE O'CLOUK. !rigs I per Cent. India 14toca Ditto Mond. &Is. pm. South-Sra Ft.tek Ett.Rilts2d. Oi. 44. M. pm. °mon:. for Money pm Dank for Account Con. for Aeet ;21i i Lott. Ticket% 23/. 10%. I I, , l' . 1 . 1 e ; ...• . •1 1 i if - t ' 1 I 1' 4 - , 1 ..• tit ttitteiman. ..Tlllll RRITIU STATISNAU " IS 114.CUUTORBIBIP WITR " TUB tTATIMMAN... of Se tie' 000 nt t~ t rife i P 3 tbe l foe