The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-03-06 00:00:00

I I iMtore would I* roe s ilt wijuld'sto • i - • should, go be hoped the Hoes* woltid ver-udix soy class be load its fair ••roportion. wai sot sound reasontig to eellist a fair and Altai Tax, lest- an uneqsal one otroulsi he imposed. • The distress of toe emsetry was flow ',dice as great as It had been in Prance at the Welshing of the Revolotien, sad they should imam-- bet, that it was the obstinacy of the plirlleged order,, to plead:ne their etomptiens, which brought on the Vitleolties which ensued:' As be thohotht them was a fair claim in jurstiee sad elpedlemey 'hat the Funds • Ihowld be subject to taxatioh, he did hot shrink from the odium of av .wing his opinion. Its moved for in *count of all Transfers of Stock at the Bank for the hot ten years (except that transferrid to the Com imisslosers of the Sinking Fund), distinguishing each year, sad each 'species of Stock. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, its should oppose the motion, on the broad grenade of the basis whit!' the Hon. Member hail laid for it. He was far from wishing to charge the Hon. blember . ith aiming at the destruction of public credit and private property, but he was compelled to say that the propo iitioa of the lion. Member was fully deserving of all the reprobation that could be bestowed on it. The Mon. Member bad cowlounded two very distinct things ;---4 tax on the funds al such, and a tat on the funds in amsmon with sill other property. The landholders bad submitted to the Property 'fat without a murmur, bat to subject them to special taxation would be a vie latiou of the faith which had been pledged to them. It was stipulated in every loan Bill't hat there should he no tax on the transfer of stock, so that the Hon. Member, by proposing a tax upon transfers, had taken the ball by the horns, because, If ever such a tax was bemused, all the argument against other taxes from the breach of public faith was taken :mil. The question bad been mach confused by the assertion that the debt had been contracted in a depreciated currency. In the years is which the currency was depreciated sums were borrowed not to a greater amount than one fourth of the debt, and this was so mixed up with the rest. (as no one who purchased stock knew in what year his particular portion was creates!) that it was impossible to trace it. But even if any could he found in the bands of the original holders it would he upjest to tax tbstn on account of the depreciation, nor could it be done without extending the principle to all private bargains which were made at the same time. Any tax that was imposed on the fund' would less af *el the rich landholder than any other. His capital Vas speedily transferred, and would be transferred, on the first intimation of the intention of Parlia ment, to foreign funds, where he would get a higher interest for Isis money.—(llear)—from which be was now withheld only on account of the supposed superior security and faith of this country. At New York or Paris he might laugh at our taxes. The alarm would soon extend beyond him. The small fundholders would be alarmed ; the word with all proprietors of stock would be, saerc qei peal, and transfer mast soon stop tor want of buyers. Then it would be that the cries of distress and ruin would be heard from the orphans and to idows, and from thousands who depended on the funds alone for their support. Who could calculate, too, what the effect on all other property would be, when this vast mass was reduced to nothing? Tim good faith of Oa, country bad been its surest stay in tins». 44 l iTiger. and the measure which would rob En ! rl.:nti of it , public credit, would deprive it of its best support. ;Ina lay it open to ev.ory enemy. On these grounds lie should give a negative to the motion. Mr. JOON MARTIN observed, that as the rest.ir lion on the Hank was not a permanent 111C11 4 11 0 e. KU it was known when the public contracted loan. that an alteration must take place at some time or other in the value of the currency. After a few words in explanation from the CHAN CELLOR of the EXCIIEqI'EIt, the su n was:ne gatived. Mr. DUI:DALE moved for leave to bring in a Rill for the more summary punishment 1 , 1 juvenile delinquents. lie stated, that lie intended to routine the operation of the Bill to delinquents under :•ixtreii y ears of age. The 11.11 was to give power to two 11.iristrates summarily to commit them to hard la• hour, is cases of thefts to a small amount.—Leave given. MR. ELLIS. Dr. LUSHIN4iTON said, as the motion which be had I to make directly affected an Honourable anti Learned Gentleman opposite to him, he should discharge the task which was unposed on him with as moth brevity as possible. The basis on which he should found the mo tion which he was about to submit to the Hon., was. that the lion. Member for Dublin could net discharge the ditties of Master in Chancery in Ire! —that lie must neglect either his duties as Alaster, or ;es Mewher of Parliament; and that, therefore, as the !Lillie 114,1 ' 3 paramount and compulsory claim on the v.rviee4 of all item... Own, the suitors in Chancery must be n , •l'..s.arilY The sufferers. In stating' to the Huse xi-hat the duties .4•the lion. Member as Master in Chancery were. he had 1110 very best evidence, that of a Commis.W.n appointed by the Crown and of the lion. Member himself upon oath The Hoc Member, he should premise, had put. ehased the resignation of his predecessor, Mr. in Hti. in pnrsnance of a long custom (wi.ti the evil of which the Hon. Member was not chargeat le). though the practice had generated a whole train of chows in the administration of justice in Ireland.—\.t mHiicould read the ltr purt of th e Commissioners of imptiry, without perceiving that the administration of justice in Ireland, tiw the last 30 rears, hail been a system of rurrupti un. said was disgraceful to those by whom it .v :is ailminis tered.—(Hear, hear.)—From the Report of Oil. Commis sionerslt appeared, that one of the six Clerks hail charged 1297 attendances in a single cause, withunt basing at tended Brea once.—(clear, hear, hear.)—This was only Our of the many abuses which prevailed up to the present Ilay, to the great injury of the suitors in the different Courts. The Hon MeMber (Mr. Ellis) entered upon his office of Maser in Chancery in ltSt.6. When es antineilupon oath brfort. the cotnnii-sioners, he stated that the duties of his office were various seal difficult. Here the Hon. Member referred to the Report,in which it was stated that the Masters in Chancery bad to at teed to the eases of lunatics, taxing bills of costs, bankrupts' affairs, and, ia short, whatever it nil At please the Lord Chancellor to refer to them. Could any oat doubt that the absence of any lientletnan who had such various duties to attend to, must he produc tive of the most serion injury to the suitors of the Kish Court of Chancery ?—([fear.)—The next quits thm pat to the Neu. and Learned Washer b) the Com leissioners was, as to the length of time which was us— einery to perform those duties. Upon this point he kbillas most unwarrantable cridence--the evidence of . . the flOn; tad LeUMW Member hinisol4 wll4 sits tor roboraNd 4y he, other Mute's in Chassesy. : Tie Hon. and Leaned Member suited, that• the doges of his oast required his personal atteadanes during tan months of the year—that be attended its his office from eleven till four every day in Tenn, and out of Term, more or less, as business required— uod that he also atteudk4 in his elks in the atoning for the dispatch of various brooches of business connected with his situatiu. How, then, could any Oestlemon so occupied attend to his Par liiimentily duties without injury to the public ? It was impossible that a was, under such circumstances, eould•discharge his duty, unless he could make 49 boars out of 24. In another part of the Report, the Honourable and Learned Member stated, that the du ties of his office could lot be discharged by depnty. —(Hear.) He trusted, then, that notwithstanding the desperate situation in which motions arising from his (Dr. Lashington's) side of the House were generally placed, that the Members of the Sister Kingdom, at least, would reflect upon the situation in which recent circumstances had placed that un happy country, and endeavour to preserve to the suitors in the Courts, at least, a wreck of their for tunes. He presumed that the . Hon. tied Learned Member (Mr. Ellis), or his friends would say, that the motion with which he was about to conclude Would operate as as es pat Aide Irw, and go :on to -Segos that ne such' motion should be made until all the mischief complained of was dune. If lie knew any thing of the nature of an es post fuels law, his motion would be totally different from it. He could allow the mischief to be dune rather than introduce an es post farts law to prevent it. Thy fact, however, was this. Thu Honourable Member's office was conferred during pleasure. Now, if lie could shew that the holding of such an office was 1 incompatible with the duties of a Member of Par lament he trusted that he would establish his ease. The Honourable Member was appointed to his dice in I SOti, anil he (Dr. Lushington) was happy to say that he was fully qualified for the duties imposed upon him ; but this was an additional reason why he objected to the absence of the llonourabie and Learned Hentleman from his office. Two or three Masters in Chancery had been recently appointed, none of whom could be ?opposed to possess the knowlei l / 4 e and experience of the lion. anal Learned Member. The fees of office were stated by the Hon. Member himself to amount to 37101. a-year. He meant no imputation upon the lion. and Learned Member, 1 when he stated that those fees had been principally created, within the last 25 years, by the Masters themselves, for their own benefit. In addition to the fees, the lion. Member had a salary of 4441/. a-year, which, with half the fees of the examining clerk, made the situation worth -141101. a-year—a sum as large as the salary of any Puisue Judge of this Country. The Hun. Member, in support of his argument, quoted the Mel of several Members who had been arrested by order of the blouse, though their excuse was kivival gone to attend the ditties of public offices in !Mind. Suppose that a Call of the House were to take plare, would it he a good answer on the part of the Hon. and Learned Member to say, that h_ was copra in ia quirittg into a complicated anal difficult . ue_ • up" *fame with his oSee? 4.14 i ta the previous discussions on this fines observed, that the Noble Lord opposite (Lor.i Castlereagh) and a Eight Him. Friend of his now abroad (Mr. Canning) had declared, that in the event of the lion. 31ember's wishing to retain b0..11 his Seat aerl I,l s (Mice, they hail rot the slightest obiectiol to moving an Address to the Crown, praying hie removal teous his situation of Master in Chancery.—(hear, hear.)--This he had heard from the Noble Lard, and he The Hon. Member, after souse further observations. concluded by moving a series of Resolutions, the pur port of which was, that the situation of Master in Chancesy (Ireland) required the constant attendance of the person tilling that 0111.. e ; amt that Thomas Ellis, Esq. Master in Chancery, who had been recent ly e : ec s e d M e mber of Parliament for the City of Dublin, was incapable of ifficiently discharging both these ditties. 'fhe lion. Member said, Ise meant to follow this mafiosi up by another, praying an Address to the Crown for the dismissal of Thomas Ellis, Esq. from Isis office of Master in Chancery in Ireland. Mr. LENNARD (of Ipswich) secondel the motion in a short hut forcible speech. Mr. ELLIS was abant to address the Home, when The SPEAKER observed, that a ditiicuitv pre sented itself to his 'idol upon this question. When any motion resi4ectin; the pritilege of the House, or inculpa:ory of and• Member, was hrouzlit forward, the form was to allow the 3lember to address the !lime be fore the qnestion was read from the Chair, and that then such 'Member should retire. It would be for the House to decide how fur the present question came within that reirulation. 31r. . N was of upioion, that on the present ocrasion, the Honourable and Learned Member (Mr. Ellip) ought to be heard before t::e question was read from the Chair. _ '1 he SPEAKEIL felt that if any doubt existed, it wettld be better to allow the Houssurable-Gentleman to address the House and retire, before the question was put. By doing this no harm con:dm-lee, whereas by a different mode of proceeding, they nui t ;lst create a very inconvenient precedent. .Ir. ELIAS then rose. He commenced by stating that be should mat oceupy the attention of the I louse at any length upon this question. There were, however, a few farts wOich he felt himself hetind to explain. He lamented that in a case in which his feelings were necessarily engaged, and in which he felt inuelt deliracy, so little delicacy had been etweised towards him. Exaggerated statements had been made, lost in such a way that he was precluded from answering them— (" No, no :" from the Oppo,.ition Benches.) He might be wrong in his assertions, bugle felt when charges were made against hint of neglizeitce and delay, which were attributable not to his but to other oXseers he had a right to s .y that exasperated acid intemperate statements had been made, which he wan in delicacy restrained from answering—(Loral cries of bear, hear.) 11e could assure the House, Wat were the present question one of a private stature, he would at once withdraw trout the contest, rather than have Iris name held up as it had bees, day by day, anal week .by week, W the censure of the public. But be felt, that in .his pres e nt sitwatiou be had ditties to perform, not of a private, but of a ',Odic deltaic ; hie ease was raised 'FS r•~~ ~- ,1"r r ' - opffitb the interists the empire. awl to these in- WOO; he was bound teatuind--(flene, hear)—.Tbe honourable and jieurned Member went as to sista, that in his answers to the. Commissioners. he had, stated. that he was in his Ore daring cer tain Lou,, every day. and that be also attended to certain duties in the evening; but it was quite plain, that this answer referred to his hours of attend- sure is his office, and not to the business to be don* between those hours. He meant only to state to the Comnsirioners the manner in which be distributed bis time each day, not the quantity of business which he had to transact. It was a fact that every day in the year, with the exception of Christmas Day and Good Friday, he sat in his office during the time he had stated, waiting for . any busiuess which might come on, bet it by no means followed that it was necessary for him to be always in town. Nay, further, hr could assure the House, that no injury could arise in any quarter from his being absent from Dublin one, two, or three months in the year. The Honourable and Learned Member went on to state, that the business of the Court of Chancery was conducted by rotation, and no matter which .taster's name was set down for any business, any other Master was fully competent to dispose of it ; so that if any one Master was absent, souther could he found on the spot ready to do the It:nine's. He disclaimed any compliment at the ex pense of Gentlemen who were at least equally com petent with himself to discharge the deities imposed un them. He could inform the House as a fact, that the Irish Lord Chancellor never rose nntil he had disposed of all tlw cases in his paper, and when he (Mr. Ellis) left Dublin, there was not any paper uf any kind i.r description unfinished in his office, thuugit he had been previously absent for a fortnight. Be sides, there was no vacation ; and the Masters' office was not situ' a single day during the w:;ole year. The Masters in Chancery divided the business; he took two months' vacation in Spring, anti daring. the rest of the year he attende I to the duties of his office.— , The question was riot whether he shAtld be deprived I of his office, hut whether the City of Dublin should be Ideprived of its franchise? In retiring from the House he should say, that if they were to deei,ie a gainst hi ll; Ihe sho•Ild fed rygret, hut it won; I be more uf a public than a private flacon-, fur the %tailed riOsts of his country._ Mr. PEEL conter.d.4l that the House had no right to presume that one of its Members wcitlil neg!ect his duties in Parliament. The honourable and Learned Gentleman who wade the a elitist 11;141 passed lightly over the cases of (:firers iu the army and n Ivy. But ill this case a Mesisher was elect..4l 4: hose duties were previously known to his coustitssents; he bad notice taken nethine afn.rwards st bids was not ;in:ma to them before. lint, to allude to the strolger case of Members sere ling from Pal laatueni, toe :1 lose took no notice of t..4-in except on a Cali of the House. The Honourable Gentleman had nut alluded to the case of Ambassadors at foreign Courts. The Ambassador, however, was not disqualified, though he st-glected his ditty in Parliament nec,.ssarily, while he performed his duty to Isis Sovereign in the foreign Courts to which he was appointed. The orey instance whieb she Hon. and Learned Gentleman held quoted in support peopsaitins t was the case of 1'6 . 104414 nal named ledlnforsi, whiiiiTin fact, made against it. 31 r.Culli ford was a Commissioner of Nervous. in Ireland, ass I thsi !loose, in order to enforce his attendance, reNolved that he shopld be -eye:idiot trout the benefit of his privilege as a Nitoolser, unit lie did attend. Ile did attend, and he was nut removed, yet the honourable Gentleman had said that that was a case in point. In the I:itli of 11. ora:e the Seea.nol, ass Act was passed to exclude certain soliecrs from the !louse of Commons who held bitua!ions under the Crown. lint the Act slid not exclude the ;lemhers then sitting ; it only went to disqualify such safseers from being eligible aft. rwards. But w hat did they du with re gard to persons holding judicial ollices in Scotland in the early part of the reign of George the First They ex &soled the Barons of the Exchequer au-I the lArls Justiciary of Scotland for the future. it regulation had been tamale by the Act of Union, and an Act passed de claring what percons were disqualified from sitting, hut the other of Master in Chancery was not included. The application of such a rule as the I.r sent would he most unjust towards Ireland, and especially towards the Ale• tropolis. They felt the necessity of having some person of professional habits to represent them, from the pecu liar nature of their trade, but there was the utmost ditfii eulty in prei ailing upon professional Gentlemen to relan• qua their bassinets and undertake the eloty. If the !louse 01°,111 be of opinion, that the principle contended for by the Hon. ana Learned lientietuan was correct. he hoped they would at least foi!o'.v the example of our ancestors, and adopt a prospective law. M r . A BERCROM 111 E sail, that the proposition of his Ilms. and Learned Frie:'d was, that the two were iticompatihle. Ili. ult . .pet was nut to remove 31r. Ellis from Parliament, hut to e.tablish a principle of the utmost importance. No injury could he visited on his constituents by the motion, for the motion was. not that he should he removed fromParliantent, but removed from the office of Master in Chancery. :Jr. Hiss was a ..isplge and he had wilfully unilertatlon to Lectatne a Member of Parliamea They were told, hat Mr. Eine had three Colleagnes, who smiertook to ;,:•rf:wits his duty while absent: that arrangement it cras tr.:o, might secure one rote against the Catholics, in:t what would become of tiae arrangement, if other Mesteri iu Chancery were to become as ambitious as Mr. Eliis was of Parliamentary distinction? If Mr. gliis was so ntaxious to serve his eonstituents, lac Io! How h fine opi:ort unity fur I s is seal, by making his cleetion i l tl.e case, and giving up his office to retain his seat. . Mr. BROWNLOW hoped Gra the feelings of the House would resist the prapoeilion as a granaitons cruelty to In indiridnal. An attempt had been m a de in the emirate of the last Scs•i an, to embody the name principle in a Bill, without effect, and he saw Ito rea son why, if a Master in Chancery recooienenderl him self to the Citizens of Dublin, he Was nit as eligible to represent them as any other man. Lost! CASTLE REAGH !mi.!, he should divide the snhject into three heads—first, as to the general expe. diency of some regulation respecting the office of Mas ter in (Amery in Ireland ; secondly, as to the par ticular case of Mr. Ellis ; and thirdly, as to the si tuation in which the majority of the Misuse stood, who , had voted last year fur the Chancery Bill. With re- gars! to the last, he had expressed his conearrente in the clause for est-lusting the individual from Isis seat, but not from his office; bat he haul never convidered that be was bound.* paw by the House of bode' After they hail rejected it, and to-do that by Aditrest Which they had WWII to do bp! litiridotiam. That, lasteerl i ''. Woold be to place the House in such an attitude, with r r respect is the larlsosaspesiolicefteestaCsi re. Hi was ready to admit the grist issesgrettP et soy Iris& judicial Olricer koldiag *at is skit House t &Ud luta was his impression wises this ease was befitro sager the consideration d that House; bat,. rate lUDs that period, be had fogad that iii.. Eliisisaltnation &rimed a special case; for, at that period k was Not aware drat this gentleman had bought his Ace; paying me loM a mum than >l or 10,0110/4 that at the time he made this purchase he u•u not aware that his tenure et the *lke yeah, exclude hint frost a seat in Parlitmeat t nay. more, that when elected by the eitisetts of Deb lin, be had no reason to think himself inaligible to that seat. Under there eiremostances, anal consider- inn that there was less pregnant public neeenity fur the exclusion of the Honourable and Learned Heinle- man than Le had contemplated upon the first view of the subject, he eonld not accede to the motion, al thongh he was ready to agree to any measure for ex cluding Irish judicial Whom. from that Hoes, is future, excepting the particular ease of, Mr. Elks. Here there was a loud cry f.r • Mr. PLUNKETT, wht . s rose accordingly. The Right Hinsourable Gentleman began by observing, that the present saeourell much of a pessimist Motion t and that therefore, from his respect for Mr. Ellis, he should feel some difficulty in speaking.tspon it, if it were not for the concluding observation of the Learn ed Gentleman himself, namely, that the present ques tion was much more important to the rights of his constituents than to any feeliag or interest df his own. Bat to this observation he would say, that the Learned Gentleman ;night he deprived of his seat without any loss either to himself or to them; for if he were a oind Master in Chancery he could net be a erood Member of Parliament. His own chararter, indeed, as well as their interests, would be beet consulted by va eating either his seat or his place. As to the aresseseet„ that Masters in Ve.ncery were elieible to sit in that Hew. because they were omitted in the Act of 1403. which excluded certain Irish offer., lie maintained that this argument had no validity for althouels t h e Irish Judges were not ennmerattel in that act, wools% sty one infer the monstrous idea that they could sit in that (louse ? The Sight Honourable Grastiensan ex• posed the fallacy of the resssoning . , that this was merely a question of privilege ; and alter describing the duties whirls the Learned Gentletenn had to pe:- form in his office in Ireland. eonsbiniog the descrir lion with a statement of his own tirclarati ,, n heron & Committee of that Ilona', that Ise was ender the necessity of attending those official desies nut testa than ten hours a slay for the far greater part se tie year, he concluded with repeating Isis reseed for the Learned Gentleman, whose ineligibility es sit in that lionise, he, (Mr. P.) stated publicly at the {vesting, in Dublin. before his election—eliding, that he thought the House .;self likely to declare him inrlieilsk, not because he was in any respect ineompet..nt to the duties of a Leeielatar, bat because be cosslil not perform such duties in conjunction with those of an Irish Master in Chancery—because, in a word, the Learned Gentleman could not do insposaibilities. —(Hear, hear.) Dr. LUSIIINGTON, in his reply, stated, that he took the words which he had imputed to the Noble Secretary of State from the concurrent reports of all the Journals he could lied, with reepect to what the Noble Lord said when this question was before ander the consideration of that House, those reports too being continued by the testimony of several Members ' of that House. 1 he Noble Lord had, however, thneght proper to deny t h ose words ; but from this denial apt use Noble Lord's change of opinion, he mast say, that he should never no.sin allow himself to be wedded ta any confidence in the declared opinion of the Not:ie Lord, sonsiderite; the ingenuity with which he eon!! change his opinion, and the Manner in which he meld sews t that new lights broke In upon him to cell for that chance. He saw, 111)1144W, that those new liglits b.nite in also epee several Gentlemen, forthey were all babes of grace. lint, notwithstanding the aberration of the Noble Lord and his immediate adherents from liteir former professed sentiments upon this subject, he trusted that the. House would, in justice and irrta;:- nity accede to Isis motion, and thus secure to the suitors in the Irish Court of Chancery, that attention whirls they hail a rillst to expert. At all events, he was determined (however the Noble Lord might deerrt Isis native. land) to do all the justice in Isis power to wards the very interesting and much-injured people of that Country. The [louse dis ides), and the numbers were— For the motion. Againit it... klaj .64 fur the Minister Dr. Ll'SlilNliTON gave notice of a motion for Thstraday next, tar leave to bring in a Gill to dreier , • pereee. leildin; certain high offices in Ireland ineligi hb-! to Nit in that :louse. He extended his notice t ee : road that point, its which the Noble Lord had declared Isis disposition to acquiesce, in consequence of doubts repressed to hint by the SolicitooGeneral with respect to the eligibilisy of Irish Judges. The other Orders of the Day Were then disposed of, and the House tvijnarned at easily two o'clock. The Earl of Fife. did not v on Wednesday last in the 31inority aprxiast the Wiselie 4/sestion. Lurd Duually yottA iti theAlajority. ,tour some days past a strong rnononr prevailed that an extraurtlinary litatrA of Orttnance would be held at Sheeiness, to inc i oire into the ilonses said to be com mitted in the Ordnance Departisent is that place.— : The latter end of last week thresigontlesnen, ttro Coos missioners of the Ordnaore, medlar. !ifyird, the Rem 'tar-, arrived there with u.siltarttir to nsilte such in guides"; they hare commenced tin ttr Leiser, and it i 4 confidently reported that the thrit'pjinnipal officers In the Ordnance thpartutent at that horde spsponded ...• peadinz the inrecigaim .. ilha . t o th ere f or , cv pursuing a very strict exandssatiotit: d t it is emelt. , Lured that even the 'borough : 01 “6 11 ,4 11 Por"sfrh will nut escape the p-tietrating shuck. ' Shonitlike Parlia mentary labours of 31r, Hume Wide*: the. lopping of of only some of the owlets esareatilari .hi time state. the country will approve the atensitre..is the beide.% of the people so loudly tali fps retitaiskaitat.—(Kert Herold.) . . . . ~. Lait Monday night doe !lithos titifitiat Oilieers 11 . f ' Seaford. -witted a i a ellirit ' Let tri s lavoi Spirits hi Ohr. Tire Om at epl ,a iii ii r i!tiell lb Telilltate t illli tl . dtt : .. 'Sig .. , a t f e r - . 21 : tharesehr •arell. ' 1 . hostillity ended in a feint. The Offik.....i i l le t-t...t i er . seisure in safety to the Craton) Bosse lit Nowharea. ~ ------ ... --_-~_-- I . ~