The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-03-04 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN. •fly of those of last %skin. lie hoped the House would at tend to the opininnsof the people. whilst it consulted Its own dignity, and not proceed with too much rapidity, and without sulfide. t evidence. cessarily counterbalanced by the high price of provi sions and of labour. De would take 40s. as the i average price of' corn in the north ,and south of Europe, and it was evident that the continental ma nufacturer had the advantage of his expellees being proportional to this superior cheapness. Under all the circumstances, he thought 665. would be a fair price, at which the import should be fixed. Taking into account the decreased value of money, this would be going hack to the rate fixed in 180-1, with the exception of the increase of taxes. We were then a great, rich, and powerful nation, and so we might be now if the import price were fixed in the same ratio: and it should be recollected that the agriculture! interest would be enabled to bear the increase of taxation since that period, by the stimu lus which agriculture had received; and the increased capital which had been, invested in improvements.— With regard to Ireland, the price.of labour and the rate of taxation were much lover than in this coun try ; and he saw no reason why the Irish farmer could not afford his grain as cheap as it was in France.' If, therefore, he could raise his corn al 40s. per quarter, and receive 635. or 665. here for it, he would be well repaid and encouraged. Ile (Mt. Babington) did not thilik - it enfair that rents should', fall. They had risen unnaturally high since 1804, and the gentry of the country would still be respect able enough if they only resumed the situation they held then. It should not be forgotten, that for the, last half century our manufactures had thriven- under the import system, and he for one would not rashly'; depart from it until the Moose had 'further experPl ence as to the effects of peace. He contended, that pica would be less steady, if we depended entirely.! on our resources. When the crops were good:' prices would be extremely low, and when had they' would rise enormously high. He concluded with . I observing, that low prices and high taxes were id deed a serious consideration to the landed interest;' but high taxes, high prices, and a failing foreign' commerce, would be mulch worse. Sir J. NEWPORT declared that no man felt greater interest in the prosperity of the manufacturer than he did ; but in Ireland there was a large body of agricultural population looking up for relief) amidst unequalled distresses. In some districts of that country, he stated, there had been many la bourers who could not obtain employment from the middle of last November to January, however anxious to obtain it; and he would pat it to the ma nufactuiers themselves, whether they would wish any man to be placed in such a heart.breaking situation. Ireland, from the policy pursued towards her, had been renderd essentially en agricultural country. In proof of this, he referred to the population returns, even in their present defective state. They showed, that in the counties of Antrim, Down, and Tyrone,l there were about 708,000 families, erwhich 488,000 i were agriculturists, though these were the greatest Mr. BUTTERWORTH said, that the Coventry Petition was signed by OMIT i V the whole male population. He hoped fur further del y. 'the Petition prayed that the proposed measures he not enacted at the present time. Much alarm had been na turally excited among the people. Whatever might he the re sult, lie people believed the-object at present was to raise, and. not to lower prices. Lord(. HLRESFORD presented a Petition from the County t►f Waterford favourable jay we understood) to alterations in the Caro Trade. The Oxford Drainage Bill was ordered to be read a second time nu T ues d a y. A Hill was read the first time fur supplying Edinburgh with water. _ . _ . —...... Sir WILLIAM CURTIS moved the second rending of the Ramsgate Harbour Hill, which occasioned a long eonversation• between the Honourable Baronet, Mr. Peter Moore, Sir C. Monck, Serienot Rat, Mr. kimbtoo, Sir H. !Montgomery, Sir E. knatchbull, Alderman Atkins, Sir J. Newport, General Liascoigne, &e. The Bill was read a second time, and referred to a Committee above stains. . . _ . Papers were presented containing returns of wheat and flour from the Coro Exchange ; and from the Continuo Pleas, con taining accounts of fees for the lavt seven years. A Hill was brought in, and read a first time, for building a Bridewell at Paisley. . . . . Mr. CHOI( EH. brought in a Bill for regulating the marine st.rvice on shore.—ltead a first time ; to be read a second time on Monday. CORN LlWq. The CHANCF.I.LOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Corn Bill. Mr. LAM BTON rose, and said, that he never would vote in support of any Bill, against which the wishes of the people had been so strongly and gene rally expressed as they had been against the present. He shonld,Rherefote, move, that the Bill be read a second time this (lay six months. Mr. JOHN SMITH seconded the motion. He was. inclined to think, that the present distress of the farmers chiefly arose from the deficient crop of last ) ear, owing to the prevalence of blight. At the period of last harvest, however, there was a large surplus of the abundant coop of 1813, so that it was impossible for the price to rise in proportion to the fhilure which then took place. If the next crop should happen to hen good one, he was satisfied that no resolutions or bills which. the House might pass, would heel) up the price of coot. It had been stated by a Right Hon. Gentleman (the Member for Col chester), that England was capable of growing wheat enough for her own consumption. He had once been inclined to this opinion : hut on looking at the returns on the table of the immense imports of grain daring the last 13 years, he was compelled to infer that at present the country was not capable of grow ing enough. Perhaps the Right Hon. Gentleman meant that it might be capable at some future period: but surely it could not be forgotten, that oar popula tion would al ways .keep, pace with the means of sub sistence ; if the latter' increased by deans of addi tional tillage, our population would increase in enact proportion. It app from tale receetLy present ed returns, that in tZrest ten years our population had ha:retried, amidst, all the waste of war, by 1,700,000 of I,Boo,oobiouls, and there was no rea fon why it should not go on. On every ground he was anxious to resist the precipitation with which it Was endeaiourtid to pass the Bill through the House. As it affecteil the whole population of the country, they were entitled to be beard on the subject.--He lam* that his constituents at Nottingham were pre paring Petitions, and would It not he matter of re gret, if they were prevented from being heard by! means pf indtscent precipitation ? There was one part of the Bill on which the information of the j House was quite insufficient—that of taking the ave. i rages. The tight Honourable Gentleman who pro. posed the Resolutions acknowledged the present I merle to be faulty and defective, though he added, that in his opinion, it was not likely to he improved • by any other course. But the House should see thilr way distinctly and fully on this important point, be-' fore they proceeded to legislate upon it. He had read the whole of the evidence contained •in the Corn Report of last Session, but it by no means fol. lowed from that evidence, that the import price should • be fixed so high as 80s. It should be recollected that the witnesses fixed that rate as a fair remunera tion for the farmer, freer a view of the then prices of labour and rate of taxation. Now the price of labour had already fallen in some parts, and would probably fall still more. Supposing, then, that on a particular farm 101. a week was paid for labour, would not a fall of '25 per cent, on wages produce a considerable effect ? It could not be doubted that from the reduction in the army and navy, there would be a great addition to the number of dispose hip labourers in all parts of the country ; end he knew from the experience of the manufacturers in th e tewt , he repieFrmted, that many of the men who had servr , l i t the navy were ardently desirous of reel turning to labour. If, then, the price of labour must fall, he had no doubt that the same witnesses, if re-examined, would say that 755. was a fair re munerating price for the farmer. The House, there fore, was now legislating on evidence which did not apply to the present circumstances. He was per suaded that if the Bill passed into a law, it would have the etlect of exciting a sentiment throughout the whole kingdom, Ilia! the Denise had attended to their own interests, nor to thoie of the people at large. [Hear, hear Without, however, hint. self participating in the opinion that Gentlemen were actuated by personal motives, still he thought that every thing should be done to prevent such a mischievous impression, being convinced that the be. lief of the peciple would be such as he had stated, unless greater time were given for consideration. If the people were in error, the more time that was given for discussion, there would be the better chance of that error being corrected. Mr. BABINGTON said, that while he respected the agricultural interest, and no man could estimate it.; importance more highly, yet he could not forget that the safety of the country depended essentially on our foreign commerce, without which our naiy could not be kept up. By means of our naval su periority, we had acquired a sort of partial mono poly for our manufactures, which toeld riot now be supported when the nations of the Continent had leisure to enter into competition with es. It was, true we possessed abundant capital and skill, to- . gether with a free constitution, which gave a degree of importance to our manufacturers which they could not look up in other countries. We should takb, care, however, not to press the importance of these advantages beyond a certain limit, as they were ue manufacturing counties of Ireland, and though the returns also included the large cities of Cork and Dublin. The linen manufacturers also raised their own provisions, so that this could not consume the surplus grain • for which no market was left but England. The manufacturers of England should recollect, that their exports of every Article of clothing, and even household fornitore, to Ireland 1 , rose exactly in proportion to the export of Its grain. This was a market of which they could not be des' prived, and this mutual interchange of benefits was a more effectual bond of connection than any legis lative enactments I Sir F. FLOOD said, that after the nember of long and short speeches which had been repeated over and over again, he saw very well that delay alone was the object in view for the purpose of obtaining op. • position to the measure by creating a clamour against it. It had been said, by one lion. Member who ! spoke against the Resolutions, that they had no taxes in Ireland. Nothing could be further from the fact; they had a Window Tax, a Tax on Horses and other articles of luxury ; in short, they had almost all the . taxes that Englishmen had, and they had. 'besides, a tax which he wished was adopted in this country, viz.: the Hearth Money, which would fall, as all taxes ought to do, on the Lords and rich Commoners of this more ncalthy country than Ireland was.— lie denied also that labour was so much cheaper in Ireland than it was in England, as had been repre sented by the same lion. Member. It was no such thing; so far from it, labour was as high there as here, in comparison to the wealth and opulence of the two countries. He represented a county, in which there were many agriculturists who had em barked their capitals in tillage, and Ireland had ' thereby derived the greatest advantages from their skill and industry; but now, when corn had fallen ! so much in price, if they were not encouraged by Parliament, they must either turn their lands again into pastures, or they would be ruined. England has also derived great benefits front the agriculture I of Ireland, which, in one year, had furnished England with 11 millions of quarters; and so late as 1812, had furnished 3,000,000 of quarters. If you do not encourage Irish agriculture, you must obtain supplies from foreign countries, from countries that were lately your enemies, and are now easy your provisional friends. He should be very sorry to die- ' tress the manufacturers of thii country ; but he did not believe such would be the consequence of adopt. ing this measure. He thought the manufacturers and'. the agriculturists should go hand in hand ; and if they did so, the manufacturers would find, that in giving encouragement to Ireland, they would bej ; serving their best friends. Mr. Alderman C. SMITH said, the Amendment should have his cordial support. Ile expressed his concern to observe, that the Hon. Gentlemen who were in favour of the Bill seemed so very anxious to harry it through the House, in the teeth of so many numerously signed Petitions, which were pouring into the House every day, almost unanimously and decidedly against the measure. This anxiety and hurry, in his opinion, showed that the supporters of the Bill were afraid to give time for the voice- of the People to be made known by means of Petitions, and thus to carry a measure which was not only al together contrary to the voice of their Constituents, bat in the lii4liest degree obnoxious to them. Mr. LAMBERT said, it had been asserted by those who were adverse to this measure, that farmers kept their horse s , hounds, and in a manner elbowed the nobility.and gentry oaf of the field. Soeh ac counts alight answer the purpose of creating a pre• judice against- this very useful body of men, In or i der to attswet a particular purpose ; but he wished the House to consider that since the ports were shut, rand even since the opinion of the House was known by so many very large majorities in favour of the measure, still the prices of corn continued low and dull ; front all which he drew an inference, that if the price were filed at 80s. that would be no reason for supposing that corn would ever rise to that price, ex cept in consequence of very unforeseen and extraor dinary circumstances. Lord MILTON said he was the Representative of a very great and extensive county, great part of which was inhabited by agriculturists, and as great a tetrt also by manufacturers, and it would be his.% ish to attend as much as possible to the several interests of both. It was extremely desirable that the manu facturer should not pay teo high a price for his bread, but while be was wilting to allow that, would it be fair to adopt in their favour measures that would ruin the farmer, and starve the agricultural labourer ? He had that very day held a conversation with a Gentleman just come to town from a part of the country called Bedford Level, which was a con siderable corn district, and the population about 13,000 persons ; and that gentleman assured him, that one-half of the population were now receiving parochial relief. lie thought, however, the Bill would be much amended and rendered more palata ble by not being a permanent measure. The corn of last year was by no means good, and therefote the old corn of 1813 had rose to 705., which would certainly not be a ruinous price at present ; but If things were continued in this state, ruin must fol. low. It was absolutely necessary something should, be done. Whether 725. or 765. or 801. were prefer able, was the point to determine. For his own part, he did net think 80s. too high a price, but he would leave it to the House to say, what it should be. lie was, therefore, in favour of the Bill. Mr. THOMSON fully confirmed the statement of Lord Milton, with regard to agricultural distresses in Yorkshire, not only among the labourers, but among the farmers; they were so severe that the I hare recital would rend the heart of man. It was true that bread was cheap, bat if the poor had no money to purchase it, it was not of much consequence to them whether it was cheap or dear. [Hear, hear!] tie conceived that the whole object of this Bill was not to put money into the pockets of the land- 1 owners, but to give plenty to the poor. He then went into an examination of the various articles of ,the Hon. Gentleman hsd now brought f orward, [Loud cries of No, no !]—He con s id ere d that on, nection to be a link of the question w hi c h they had been discussing last night (the Ba n k R estrieti, Act). As to the proposed measure, h e was not friendly to the principle of it, as he th ought got protection was necessary to our agri cu l ture: but was hostile to th e pr i nciple aves unfriendly to the price which had been filed I the Committee as the protecting price. price. in " I "i the Bill, he therefore only considered hi mself to acting ag p a it in o st T r i s E . R a o s t E he protecting of the Bill. lie defended his Constitu ents, were petitioners againit the Bill in the last Si,sir from the charge of inconsistency in not h av i ng; duced evidence before the Committee i n support their allegations. The part of the petiti ons xhi respected the importation of foreign co rn , and t duty thereon, had been referred to the C omm i ttee, The Committee, it was true, afterwards w ent me generally into the subject, but the petitioners iv( not aware of the new line taken by the C onim i ttit p o Beside the petitions being against the Bill then r' ing, and that Bill being postponed for six months, I was understood in the country that the measure Ku abandoned. Some principles which had b een ad. vanced in support of the Bill were absurd —for: stance, that the price of corn had nothi ng to do wit; the price of labour, end that the amount o f rents L a i nothing to.do with the price of core. it wou ld ' hard for Gentlemen to convince their te nan t s o f truth of the latter assertion. It had been sa id b y Hon. Gentleman (Mr. 'Thomson) that the o bj ect , every country should be to export as much a s p o w. bie, and to import as little as possible. If thi s was the case, how were the exporting mercha n t s to " paid I—[Hear, !ear!]—On the question o f rents, surveyors, examined by the Committee, had a ll owe d that whether or no the high prices caused high rents the influence was reciprocal. The landlortlf had r all times been anxious to have their full share of I spoil, as was evinced by the practice of letting survey in the West of England, which was a kind auction in the evening, at public houses, where drunken farmers were induced to give exorbitant rents. The restricting price might not be the lowest at which in years of plenty the people would - their bread, but it would be the lowest price of ordi nary years. He should therefore vote far the amend ment. A Gentleman, we believe Mr. WHARTON, fended the character of Mr. Thomson from the wearing apparel, &c. the importation of which wea l 1 putation of interestedness cast op him by Mr. Mar. Prohibited for the purpose of encouraging our own ryat, and stated that there was no man teas liable' manufactures, arguing from analogy, that similar •be biassed by such feelings. The distress in , I protection ought to be given to the agriculture of the ; country was such that some measure was , necessary. country. Ile was convinced that the trading part of I lie thought if this country imported its subsistence, the community was not aware of the distresses among . the trade would get into the hands of great capital. the agriculturists: he was sure that in Yorkshire ists, who would dole out corn at their own prices. there was riot one honest manufacturer [hear! and, —[near!] laughiel], who, did he know the miseries of his un-1 Mr. MA ItRYAT denied that he had imputed fortunate fellow-creatures among the labourers in improper motives to the Hon. Gent. although he. husbandry, would not be ready to make any sacri. ' domeeised his arguments a, illustrating theconnectitio fices for their alleviation. The truth was, that they ' between this subject and the state of the currency. were misled by those whose interest it was to mis.l 11 , ir. LOCKHART thought the Petitions rakish lead.dient.—L Hear, hear !]---The great rule of po. I were fromoisy to day preseutvd, many of them found. !Meal economy was to export as much as possible; i ed on misrepresentation, shook, not. prevent , i and td import as little as possible, and why with re- t House from proceeding to legislate. It was no woe& I spect to the most important article of life should anl that the people of the country were mach irritated, ; attempt be made to reverse the rule. The Honour. I when Members of the House said, that if the prior I able Gentleman went back as far as the reign of ' Corn was bred at 80s. the price of bread would . ! Edward IV. when a law was made against the ' 16d. or 18d.—[Ifear„hear, heartj—lt was strings importation of grain, it being then at the'high price ' that a high Magistrate should make each assertions, of 6s. 80. per quarter, to show the consequences though it was true that the quartern loaf was °' of not adhering to that law in after times, when it !elver in the country, 50 or 60 miles from London, was recorded on the statute book, that where before thaw in the City. The calculation of price in a district had been inhabited by hundreds of per- Right Hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Rose) Pamphlet, i sons, its sole occupants were three or four herdsmen was 131 d. for the quartern loaf, when corn was SIN. I and their (locks. He concluded by reading an ex- the quarter. The reasons adduced Vase Member ! tract from an Address to Bonaparte by Prince Tal. for Bristol (Mr. Protheroe), to show why 'the 'Asti leyrand, in 1802, when he was recommending the tants of Bristol, and the other Petitioners, bad , 1 Emperor to make peace with England, in • which presented evidence against the Bill, were very ones , were the following expressions :.—...44 Leave England tisfactory. How, did not the Hon. Member infom 'at peace, and you will see the ilinistersguided by the his constituents, that the Committee was taking eni• popular clamour, which we know how, to excite and deuce on the question? How had -. this fact escaped encourage. Leave England at peace, and they will the enquiries of the Petitioners ? The House ar never think of increasing their ropulation, or of begged now to delay the measure; why, but that the making one part of their soil of Utility to another. country might run the same race of ruin for another Leave England at peace, and most of their Nobility I year ? There was not a man who would not rue the and Gentry will continue to squander away their great delay. The manufacturer as well as other classes. riches among us, augmenting our resources, and af. The labourer was the person to whom the regards , ' fording us ultimately the means of enslaving their the House should be extendeti, and if that class ' country."—The last sentence seemed dictated in a fered, agriculture would suffer with all the branchrt spirit of prophecy, but he hoped that the former part of industry connected with it. Row long would ' of the speech would not receive the same verification. be if the distress reached the manufacturer, at —[Mcer, hear!] lessened the consumption of his produce. The nit Mr. PRESTON said, that he thought it much less of the fundholders had been brought into the (total, to the disadvantage of this country, that its Nobi. 'versy, as . if they were to be icjared by the Bill from lity and Gentry should squander their revenues in ' the increase of the price of 'articles of subsistence. — France, than that it should be applied to the importa- i No fundhelder could certainly have put his hand f tion of corn, which not only deprived us of the ! these Petitions, since they could nut grudge the hal I money, but introduced an article that would be the peony which they might pay upon the quartern loaf ruin of our agriculturists. The difference of the ; for the increased security of their property. If C price between 7'2s. and 80s. would take away all i measure was not passed, the distress of the labour. the rental of the kingdom. The Bs. on three quara was inevitable; they were already thrown out ter, would be more than the average rent of land employ to that degree, that they. were obliged per acre of the country. ,It was said, that this i beg for employ ; if the measure did tint pass, the,' would not all be deducted from the rent, but that 10 ; would soon beg for bread, end bread which the ' per cent. only would be taken from the landlord, and ' country could not produce. The merchants no a proportionate share from other persons. Now . manufacturers would then find whether their car from whom would the rent be taken ?—Not from j tal could support the whole starving•populatiou the distressed farper,still less from the labourer.— the country. , Mr. Mant, who .had contended that 7'2s. was a turn. Mr. PROT if EROE explained. tient protecting price, had an estate tythe-free, and , Mr. Emayr said, that when a Mame of at ' consisting of excellent land. On good land the ex. milar nature was proposed last year, he bad roll ! pence of cultivation was small, a n d the profits to be against it.. He thought then . that the time was divided between the farmer and the landlord. The adapted forit, and that sufficient infatuation ht wheat crop was always a losing crop, and it was Hot been obtained upon a subject so ditlicJit and necessary there should he some encouragement-to the the same time so delicate. No matt was; general. ' farmer to cultivate it. He thought he should perform speaking, more averse to political regulations upon his duty to the manufacturers, as well ns the country such subjects than himself. Notwithstanding tl'' at large. by giving his support to the Bill. i general feeling; vet, upon tato information that Vli Mr. MARRYAT could not avoid adverting to . now before the House, he could not avoid thinking, the expressi o n o f an H on . G en tle man oppos i te (Mr.. that both for the protection of our agriculture, ar Thompson) " that no honest Yorkshireman, ma : the preservation of the power of the country, some though living in a mminfacturites town, would wish ! regulations were now absolutely necessary. As to to starve the farmers." Certainly this was true ; the principle of free and unrestricted commerce being neither would any honest man, living in any other a great good, nobody could deny it; but we were county of England, wish to starve the farmers. He not in ti situation to apply those general principles to believed, however, that the people of Yorkshire, as . the praieut question. • The inlattd trade was enlit ll l well as othe r counties, without lookirugovbr the lion. ' under the protection of the state ; but aa to foregli Gentleman's hooks, understood pretty well the con-itra. t ; here ' were two parties to it, and it mast de nection that th e r e w as b e t ween f armers and country * t runtrnm . ently on the wishea of our Goveott e try bankers. lie thought that this consideration ! but its duration mu s t alio depend upon the "liti" lessened much elf the weight of the arguments which . 'of another state. France had made regulations I°l aft el d, eon. had "ion : 1111. torn, at he LI by 0 b e 0/l e 1 0i0 lion, ad. ft of hich the nOte Were itte t 0 , it wee ad. r in. ow l had i b e f the yea :1 of Ng. vas I ha ?sits, roved rents td at f the dby of the kant west eat rdi- end. de. dim le to the nary. ente r rices. I nay had rtion Aids and• the odes :red, c• of d be asp ions, td. don, in a Imes, VOs. Met se bi. I not Inst. form eri. sped wn fhe filet the SM. Is of sof. chrs it and ems rtro- rant e. — d to salt. null, the of L to Ihey the apt. ; t of • Si. ed s ill had d Kt illy p Po 11 this was ing, and mns !in; reel to roly tle• ••nt, ion lot • -- . 0 - - - -