The Statesman. — London, England, 1820-08-26 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN. The Bishop of PETERROltalliel litwetrc,l that the Ifi tcrpreter did Put translate the lirrinAn 'I.) Ai to 1: , % ey the witiwas'i nmuniug in English. and polka:arty iii ql• prrsest case where t put the past terie in the s En t lieh, for that which lu the preset.t tense in the • Merman. THE QUEEN. • STATESMAN-OFFICE. Is D. 41, Two &Thies. HOUSE ()).' I.MM*, Ave. O. The LORD CnaNcs:t.Loa entered the Douse and took his seat on the Woolsack shortly before ten o'clock. Prayers were then read. The Garter-List of the Peers was then called over. Lord Sher-borne was excused fur ion-attemlance, in consequence of the recent death of his father-in -lacy. Lord Sondes was excused on account of continued indisposition. At a quarter after ten o'clock Counsel were railed in. Barbara Creese was recalled to the liar. She wa s very respectably dressed, and eyed their Lordships with out appearing at all abashed. Two German Interpreters were then introduced, and sworn by order of the Lord Chancellor. The last questions and answers of yesterday respecting 1 the Princess puttying lip from the lied-side on witness entering the room, the last answer was " Yes ; the ! Princess had junmeti up. and I had retired." What happened then ?-0n the seine evening do you me in On the same even: ?—1 have seen the Princess sitting , on the hetl-side, and rwithdrew. What did you see?-1 withdrew; 1 was affright.— (A laugh.) Yon then withdrew. you are understood to sayir: Yes. Did you nuke up the bed in No. 12, Bergami's room ? —Yes. INd you at any time discover any thing on the heal ! In the best 1 have found a cloak. Did it apparently belong to a female?—Probably, be., cause behind there was a kind of a limo. What did you do with it?-1 took it out ; I placed it .4 asunder. - When was it ?—ln the morning when I ina.le the bed! Describe the cloak a little more particularly ?—lt %%as a silk ; the odour grey. Did you afterwards s..e any one wear that cloak ? The aeri Mit 1.11(:•11 it out of my hands. Question repotted.-1 have seers t h e mantle the next day on the Princess, lam I cannot sw ear it was the saute. Lord DACRI coreurred in the opinion of the Learned Prelate, as the words alluded to oughs to have been translated `• she is up,' out that " sue /sad gut up. ur h.l arisen." Lord llow.%!ID hoped their Lordships would not at tend to any Interpreter either in or out of the !louse who was not sworn. Mr. BROUCIIAM expressed a hope, that as the Inter preter employed by the ',arty acting against het Mujesty, atipeared to iw incompetent, a more competent person would be found, and that some delay be granted to enable those ar'ing for the Queen to Simi another Inter preter on their part to correct and check him. The AiToll7lllr-lluxtKAL said. that he had another Interpreter to he sworn. The Earl of Ltertinnot. observe.'... that the House would expect the Learned Counsel to pro% tie a regular Interpreter, duly competent to the purpose. Their Lord- Oiips would, he was persuaded, feel themselves indebted to the Learned Prelate oho had pointed out all error in the tranala::cn of the Interpret” at the bar, and thus preserved them from misconception. Ile would not he understood to, mean that the House should be decided by any Interpreter who was not sworn, hitt their Lord ships must be obliged by any Noble Lord wl:o should ;tined their jodgment from mistake. Lord tiurNsit.La declared his concurrence in the sen timent of the \oh!e Earl. particularly As to the neces sity of selecting an Interpreter capable of accurately Conveying to the House the real meaning of the words used 6y the witness. But if any Interpreter who might be selected, 'tmid happen to err in hie translation, and that any Noble lord should discover that error, from hie knowle..lge of the original language, it would 1w strange. indee I, if this Noble Loot were to be _precluded from giving his information to the House. But so far seas he from entertaining such an impression, that he felt the Howse owed an obligation to the Learned Pre late and to the Noble Baron, who had on this occasion protected their Lordelrips from tniscouception. For their Lordship. must be most desirous to be accurately informed of lee meaning of the witnesses through the Interpreter...l*d that those Interpreters spoke the truth and nothing else. Mr. lionenir sat could not object to any Interpreter who was sworn and competent to do the duty which their Lordship s desired. Of course, then. he could not object to any interruption which alight be given by any ore of their Lwilrhips, to an% interpretation ohich ;night he erroneous. But he took leave to say, that it was no fault upon his part that he was not on this or carion prepared with a roe eeeee on interpreter. For hr protested, that at the outset of the case, he did not ex pect that any German witness worihl be adduced. The neat witness might he from Africa or Asia, for aught he knew, arid after their Laiiiships had thought proper to refuse his Illustrious Client, not only the names of the ithesses who were to be adduced against her, hut the names of the places where the at ts charged against her Majesty o ere alicg,ed to have heen committed, he was not to be c 1 isl because he might not he ready with inter• preters fist every witness that should be brought forward. The ATTONNEV•OVIRRAL observed. that in his open ing statement he had distinctly mentioned that certain improper acts, referring to the main charge, Lail taken place !hero, and that hence the Le:tined lientlemati might tare cqnr!iidrei upon the production of tierman a itnesses. Was that on the Princess slit:liar ?—Ycs, of the sante colour. Was it of the same pudic 7.—Yes. Had the mantle which the Princess was wearing a howl ?--'l",•=, it load such a !moil bid you observe any thing else on the sheet, at ano ther Clore : 31r. Buoys:ll%m. Ke so zool as to translate literally. I 0:11:C SAW thew iI:reASI.A.-111' err etrr, tt that means disorder.— It hat do you mean he that ?---Interpreter. Rile is at a loss to explain it. She at last said stained. %Ir. BfrtilCUHlNl.—The translator most nut give in commentary all I snnnuarr. ..• Loan LP =rd 1 •ord, Ilear, , _toot, Inas( rums. t ansiate wet Jur Intetpre:er. She sa:LI, she 1% AS At a loss to explain; there were stains. Waal sort of stains were they?—.ls much as I have seen. thry were white. Are you not a marriva woman ':—Yes. rThe witness is AS here mach alreezetl t and horst into tear}.] Have you ever made the beds of married persons Yes ; she mule all the lords in the ! m u.... What was the apiwaraute of these stains?—s-Pgrolll l 6 me. I have not reflected upon this; I hire had no thuught on this. Bauvutivat contended that no such conclusion was to be drawn, as the charces alluded to at Car Willie freight bare formed part of the evidence extracted from, or afforded by his client's own attendants. But as his edent Lad been at Tanis, Athens, Tripoli, the Jlorea, and the Holy Land, be did not know whether he might Not b• regnired to prostate a Tunisian, a Turk, or a Creek, far the interprets ' of the neat witness. And by wlwm had he been placed in this embarra4vitiF hon. He called neon the Attorney •ti Ito diminish his embarrassment, by stating even now the names of t`ae witnesses whom It• n.eaat to adduce, and the moues of the places where the acts charged upon Iris client were alleKtd to have hren cot 1111 l itted. • Were they dry or wet ?—Slit. [The wittivss Vcas again much alTecteil.:l !tniii (Attu sail, with the leave of their Lord ships. he would piistristie his cross-examination that hr tuight obtain inform ttion elsewhere. 'the Limn tNt ELLites feared th.st such course would produce much irregularity. .11r. lluocr.n tm thought that it hail been understood nld irtl. Etirl Noway stlggestell that the disputed passage fright be fettled by a tutnumicatiun betsteeu the inter preters OD both sides. The l. '11;e of II tutt.ron thought it impossible for the flume. to refuse the applieatiou for delay which hail been reinireti lay the Counsel fur the Queen, in order to en able them to provide a competent interpreter for a wit nem. fur the production of n•hotu they were confessedly unprepared. The Earl of Ltv?Arno'. said, that after the appeal o f the Learned Counsel, he thought it would he tight to grant some delay, in order, that hr might be afforded an opitortunity of providing a competent interpreter. Earl fiR►Y agreed with his Noble Friend (Lord (iren ♦ille) as to the right and the duty of every Noble Lord, Vo knew the original language. to alToril any informa tion in his power that might save their Lordships from heicg misled by any Interpreter. But from what the Attorney-tieneral fur the Queen had stated, he thought their Lordships must feel the justice of complying with that Learned I;etitleman's request. TIN! Lunn CHANCELLOR Called upon Mr. Brougham to etal.• his ()like. Elttorutt sst stated his object to be the postpone ment of the further examination of the present witness, until he should be enabled to provide another Interpreter on his part. At four o'clock Mr. BROI*GOAM begged that the further examination of this witness might be post poned till tu-enurrow. After much conversation this was agreed to. but the arrangement was followed by cries of " do ian, go un." The AyruaNer-tlEmtaiiu appealed to the 'louse whether he ought to be required to rail another wit ness, and proceed with such witness's examination before he had concluded the qttest;ons he hail already to put to the witness still before their Lordships ? (llear, hear.) It was then proposed to adjourn, amidst cheers. The LORD etwirat.Loa quggested, whether it would not meet the general convenience to adjourn to- MO( fOIV at four. Ar.uther Peer wished that the House would daily ad j ourn at four o'cloek.--(Some laughter.) The House eventually adjourned at about a quarter past four ii'clook, the calling of another witness not being pressed. The Queen entered the House when the female witness was railed. Her Majesty directed a de termined look at the lady standing at the liar, and then took her seat. She remained about half an flour, till the witness began deposing to the Princess appearing with her arm round Hergami, and oho then suddenly left her seat, hastily proceeded to her room; ordered her sarriage, &Ad hurried from the House. Her Majesty loft the Maw at half-past three o'clock, and went to St. Jaones's-.qsare. that such course should be pursued. Mr. Dexai tx Ailed, that if this application were re fused, he having expected that the course would b e a t. lowed, he should be peculiarly circumstanced ; he should lose the right of cross-examination. The Loan CHANCIELLOR remarked. that more than one cross-examination would be calculated to produce some injustice. Mr. Ilitorain tat pressed the justice of the course which he had understood was established. Her Majesty was peculiarly circumstanced, for nothing hail been known of times. places, charges, Ike.; and therefore it could not be expected that he was perpared to meet the evidence, or to pursue a cros:•examination. The Lotto Cita NCIELLOR addled that the witness might he cross-examined stow as to quality, situation, etc.; and afteruards examined again, should it be requisite to put further opiestions. It was so arranged, and the cross-examination rue- . sued. By Mr. Seocan tat—Were you married at that time? What were you before ybu were at that inn was the saute likewise, similar situation. She was at a little village. What service were you in before yon were at the inn? —I lived at guise; lust before at my . father's. Were you in any snails before that ??—Yes ; in several families. Name one ?—Marvet. ~~ bid you ever see Colonel Browse ? No. Colonel Duni; —No. Where did you go to?—Hanover. How long did you remain there ?—Six or seven days. Were SOU !ICA miiird there ?—They asked me whether I had seen such and such things. Did you return to Carisruhe What ilitl you get ?—)mall payment for my lost time. How moth ?--Very It will be the easier remembered—how much?—Fifty or sixty florins. What wages had von at the inn?—Twelve florins, beeati-e they reckon much on pain Imire—the per quisites. Did any body else give you any thing?-10. Nothing since ?—I have been Welled a long time to Frankfort. How long did von stay there ?—Four or five days. I received 14 ducats fur it. Why did you conic to London ?.—I was told 1 must come. I said I would not, except 1 was forced. What pay are you to have ? Lord LAUDERDALF: interposed, declaring, that it was must objectionable to cross-examine to impeach tes timony, where it was understood that the witness was to be re-called. The precedent was most fatal. The LORD CHAN( ELLOR.--The cross-examination, he thought, had gone too far. He had expected that the questions would only regard the situation of the witness, and like questions; hut to cross-examine now to impeach the witness was most dangerous. It could give the opposing Counsel a most dangerous advantage, for it would afford him the opportunity of knowing what witnesses to recall ; and thus the Counsel would have undue advantage, to holster up a had case should that be required ? (Hear. hear.) —Lord F:t.nox call in the Counsel. His Lordship said, except the cross exeunt's tion were now pursued, questions ought not to be put but sugar& the witness's situation. The Loan Cotsi.c.u.ou -said, he could not allow the rule of this House to he violated. Itstot . .:itsm said, that of co- se any rule their Lordships should please to make, he should strictly fol low, and re-coniniented the examination. Ask the witness where does she live at present ?—ln England. I tete the Attorney.f irneral rose. and begged permission of Cieir Lordships to make our or two observations. He contended against the prautice of allowing his Learned - • the • qe side to call forth the witnesses .'fiends on , opposiL cats iii to be re-examined a henever they pleased, and begged lea‘e to state, that in his opinion, thee should state to the House the grounds for their application. He said that this line of conduct placed him in a very awkward situation, and he hoped, that their Lordships wolld extend the same justice, titer had shewn to the op. posite side, to the witnesses who were to be heard in support of the Bill. I lir Lotto tNCILLOR sail, if lie might be allowed to allude to a former case cited by Connsels, lie would say reflection had led to an alteration of his mind. The present question was, whether cross-examination could go un. It a iist of witnesses had been given in the terms nientiored by the Learned Counsel, they would not i liare asked the witness where she lived, unless they went through the whole rides of cross-exatuination. If the House had adopted the true mode of proceeding, for God' s s4 lie, %aid the !mat) CHANCELLOR, go On; but if you bare any doubt, for liod's sake retrace your steps. At present, it appears to roe, that the ( °tinsel its support of the fill cannot be called on to re-examine witnesses. Accorilitif!, to the rules of parliamentary proceediur, he did not see that the Lords could ask a witness who had not teen cross-exawained - a Single quselion. Lord I; ors% itt.a wished to tale a muds larger %iew then h at tr ie , n take ') °f illy system. It was of extreme importance question - they should Isle into consideration the whole aria lug out of cross-examination. It appeared to him as one of the uttsoat importance to lay down a striet In junction. an invariable time for examination. If there were diMeulties in the way of atihrreuee to the line as it it a, then laid down, they might not cease to adopt the course of pnicerding which Justice required.-- 41; rest ins the diMealtira were, in preventing a pprtial cross examine thin. it would present a difficulty hitheeheillAwnwo. if the lions mere to say, Counsel should he tenoned to ttni •. to say, ... a list of witnesses called by the Mak*, and lot they should nut hare the opportunity a introducing new o ittiesses, miner the circumstances arising out of cross examination. His Lordship proposed they should fix a day for the consideration of this subject, for if there was not a clear rule laid down oil this important question, they would tiva themselves impeded day after day. He begged to tuns their thoughts to the subject, and defer the pro ceedings until they had decided what was the course to he aduptei. Lord tint:xi-mut then moved that Cozumel withdraw, and the proceedings he adjourned to Monday morning. Lord ItittimaoaLit expressed a hope that this proceeding esiKiit not become a precedent, and apply to all future proceedings in Parliament. If there) should be any resolution on the subject, it alienist specially apply to the case, and not to any other proceeding. The mode of proceeding then proposed was most dangerous. A departure in the first instance from the ordinary course of proceeding, was to be converted into a rile. It was said the witnesses bring foreigners coining from foreign ports, no opportunity was afforded of making the inquiry into their conduct and character. It was. therefore. proposed that cross-examination of witnesses should be p•istponed until information could be obtained, to enable the cross examination to take place. Never yet kad he known that it was proper in any ease to postpone the cross-examination of a witness to any indefinite period. lie knew not how they were to have brought before them the arguments is support of such n proposition : because the Counsel mould not be Who is Marvel ?-I.ansllorsl of an inn. ab:e to sit;w this botan or this ease. It was important to Were you chambermaid there ??— Yea; six months. bear in mind the necess ity of consistency in these pruned. Where before?—At the Duke of (laden. inns. If one thing was allowed to one party It must be What age are eon?—Twenty-five. I was going to snif 1463 tee 4 to The other. I was in number place for licit' a year. I Lord ERSKINE said If they were to go on. they onght, What lace ? —.lt tarlsruke, with Tchanel. I was at least, to Isy down a rule. Ile denied that say rule cellar maul. existed to prevent the necessary inquiry into the conduct What is the office of cellar maid ?—To cleanse the and character of witnesses, totally unknown to this public room. country. It appeared by the statement of the At. Had von any other occupation at any time?—None. • torney-lteneral, and the evidence already heard, that Ilad ;he not to attend on the man guests ?—Nothing those witnesses, in some instances, were days and hours to attend to but to cleanse the room. out of date. He implored the House to prevent thi. How lung have you been here?-=Three weeks and two evidence going forth to the public, and the world, be days fore they came to a just and fair decision 4111 the rights Who slid you come over with?—.l courier. of the parties involved in the examination of the wit. His Name ?—ityster. nesse,. Ile supported the lion of his Noble Friend, b Any one else ?-31y brother, because I did not like to because he felt how necessary it was, to consider the travel by myself. subject, in under to put themselves in a situation to du Who paid your expenses?-1 do not know, but the justice. courier paid . for the time. I The Earl of larmteoot. said he understood the pro- Wbo desired you to come over ?—Our Minister at position of the Noble Raton to postpone this proceeding Darmstadt. to order to lay down a strict rule for the examinatios Of 1)61 any other Minister speak to you to come over?— witnesses. I'o that proposition he could have no ob- No one else when there. jection, hut he wished to say a few words on the subject. Question repeated ?—Monsieur De lialli. He thought it necessary to say, when the Noltle Lord Who is he?—He is at t'onrt, 1 slo not know what. made application fur a list of the witnesses, that it was Did any other person speak to you ?—The Asubassa- decided to be contrary to the usages of Parliament, dor at the Coon of Wirtensbere (we talk she said). sad the ends of justice, to grant such list. Pro- Any one else?—Monsieur Duraden. - ceedings on a Bill of Pais* and Penalties differed beds Who is he?—They told me he was Minister from sh e proceedings i n cr i m i na l c on n e . Th e dig iviara Hanover. existed in this. After the close of the arguments 1 Where does he live?—At Varlerube, at a Jews. examinations, of course, the Members of Hess. Did be often come to the inn where you were chaos- the power again to examine anti call berssaid ? Did he examine yon ?—Yes, and Maluku, amens He aid may've hew it was e Derneg. Ambassador of Wirtensherg. the premed's's' this Hesse with tC lll 4llll=the Did - yout ever leave Carisenhe before en this beanies ? reeds bwiew. If this am i had bow le —Yee. England, the difireitv would hare ereaskosed id s hir Did you ever go to Vienna ?—No. , days delay. Had it ceinsiftiod in Diglaid. abs !.UNDO.: 1117CIDAY AU , ,CST 26, 1620. Since our last, we hare received the Preach Popo to Wednesday inclusive. In these, there appears I Royal Ordonnance, dated the 22d inst., cuatekiag the Court of Peers to proreed, without delay, to the trial of the individuals arrested at Paris, I. the evening of the 19th, and of ali their abettors ur sh eompliees. 'floe Sieur 11.tv Councillor of State, is appointed to net as the Kt so's Procurcur (tenetsl oa the occasion. The greatest tranquillity tontines to prevail at Paris. The names of the parties arrest( on suspicion of being implicated in she late cueaPi' racy have not transpired. The Judge diastrartialk M. tis %SPE*, proceeded on Wedmesday to tba inter rogation of certain officers arrested that nrotainto among whom, it is will, there was a Colonel. H• Mortar, Advocate, who had been arrested the pre. ceding Sunday, had been set at liberty, sad ? Nadal our Wednesday before the Court of Assise. His Mi- JIIIATT had transacted business that Jay wit► Ids sisters, and the suit day he was to receive the officers et . the National Guard, and of the Guile On the 17th lest. a dreadful coalbagrstioa seek place is the city of Tours. The ire laseell ler`s l hones, and away of the military who seelooti PI or tinguishing it were hurt, but no lives wet* lest, • I', .~ ► • • ~ parties might have put themeelves right in s f• In this case, from the peculiar circunistAnces, :f on • be a much longer d e l a y. li e did not see loos He y rulty would have been removed if the list of wi leadbren known. This seas the first insta ll " i n 46 the difficulty had accrued, but th e question 1 th rr come to was this: " Wi•ether the Counsel the puss er of delaying rross-examioatio n t ea f t ; '' time. If the Lords were disposegt to relax their i t, the subject, they would consider whether the s T I aminatton of all the witnesses ought to be MK r,' that mos to he the clorision, th e y certa i n l y week ap 'f low the Counsel for the prosecution to sum apsoc i i.,‘ cross-examinations hail been tnltile. Lord t;nrstviLLlC again observed. that the Bosse rap, be e‘tremely rant' ois on this most important notele t ,' me Noble Baron m ist strenuously argued the esee tik ., — ` . , coming to a fix.-41 ride. which might regu:ate uric proce e dings. They ought at their next nee t i a 7, call on Counsel to state what departure front tin I. blislied ride thet deNired. and m state their arm,.. After hearing their argument. the House tnigbr o ,,,,.; a definite determination. The (louse onclit to k, strong ground shewn them fur departure fr om bashed rule, hut if that groend was sheen, there skoi, be uo hesitation. There was no principle by which:), proceedings in Courts of Law were so stroney tetnw as that which laid down a clear direct rule to en by. I. was hard and difficult to travel over the wide co;eari doubt and it settledm practice. It was for the purpose < enabling the House to adopt and lay d o ," tee, rule, that he impressed ou the House dte expedieoee < adjournment. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE admitted that the &C m opportunity ought to be afforded of Flying theirs: l 6 n the fullest attention; and thought it of the • consequence to lay down some strict and ia> rCe to guide the receiving of evidence, not only u Aok i the most important question now before the Hune t hi the character of their Lordship's general proes e4 H at. They had heard the Attorney-lieneral against dorsi % but they had only heard the Counsel on the other vise in snpport of his question, not re_•arding the min H s also thought that the Counsel on Instil sides shoal.' le heard on the subject previously to any adjournment m use Lord tinexvit.t.r also agreed that the Conasel be heard full• on this important snhjret. Lord F.Lt,u,tnonocuif was of a similar opinion. pro villusl the counsel were prepared to argue the question. Some pause ensued. The Loa u CHA Nee ',Loa enquired, whether it was their Lordships' opinion that Counsel should be recalled. His Lordship then informed the Coansrl aginst the Bill, that the House was prepared to hear whether they hail any, and what departure (man the usual rules of evidence to propose. The t %sunset for the Crown would then he heard on the other side. Mr. Iltiorunam admitted that be might to he prepatei at all times to cottiply with the wishes of the Home, as, to support the interests of his l'ourvel; but he did der. it hard to he called on thus hastily to lay down genet. roles of evidence in a case that was without antilop. witl t precedent. Besides, it Was hard for him to take the responsibility on himself. a responsibility Ora which he hail never shrunk ; to state not only his ess opinion hut the sentiments of all his learned fried!. '1 here was one trait which affected the whole questiet. in consequence of the list of witnesses having Smite fused; but as their Lordship* saw the difficulties it, which their previous irrangements and decisions lisl involved them, they might see the propriety of refry* their steps. They migtit now perceive die whinier that would result from returning to those moans( reeding which the precedents of the House sad rules of Justice would warrant. They wouW asn able to see what benefits would accrue from Marls; their steps ; and it was not too late to do so. Lord Livcaponi, begged panlon fur intereptiag the witness, hut he thought it wont) save melt time aM might be convenient to their Loelships to know ilk* first instance whether or not the Counsel again* th Hill required delay.—(llear, hear!) 31r. llitoutma .0 said he hail only hero litlifON if stating to their Lordships all the ditficolties with Oki he was surrounded by the tack that had in sadarslr been imposed on him ; but as to the enquiry now !au e. lac must undoubtedly must beg of their Lordship to grant delay. The question of adjournment was irote , !iately pot asp earned ; and adjourned at hall-past one o'clock, ttl Monday. THIRTY CAPITALs—TWO OF TWENTY THor. 8 %ND POUNDS. de.—Al.t. IN MONEY-0W &MO TICKETS—EU:II TO HE DRAWN liINULY —ALL UN WEDNESDAY \EX F. PRICE OF STOCKS TH Nook Btoek I !)%Y AT ONE O'CLOtl. Intim Stork Ditto Don& 21s. pm. Old Annuities Et. Silts 9d. is. IL re. Ditto Com. ()raisin's Con. for Ace. on OM Lott. Tickets 111. 1114. 11 per Cent. Red. 0 6 4 I per Ct. Cons. 671 08 Si per Cent. 77 4 per Cilibill. 6pr Ct. Nary 1041 Lon" Ann. 18 1-10 lop. 11 per Cent. Ann. HIGH WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE to-anasos Nluraing. IS min. after 4.—Esetting. a 6 alio. after 4. ehe Matt Oman. " TICS BRITISH STATESMAN IS I•compostailto WITS "US STATBSMAN.'• I , li