The Statesman. — London, England, 1809-06-20 00:00:00

ItiOr3i - O - r — cii.43loNS. Monday, Jane 19. A Message frees the Lords acquainted the House that their Lordships hail agreed to the Seats in Parliament Bill, the Insolvent Debtors Bill and several private Bill s . • • Sir Jone Sum-etre brought up the Report of, the Committee app..iiited to inquire into the utili ty of eueJurieging and extending the use of broad. _Aheoltd carriages. The Report *as ordered to bo ...printed. The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod appeared at the liar, and summoned the Ursine to the House of Nets to hear the Royal Assent given by Com mission to several publsrand• private Bills. On hi* return, the Speaker acquainted the House that • the Royal Asseut had been given to the Scotch Judicature (WI, the Insolvent Debtors Wile they Irish Grand Juries Ragalation Dill, and several I private Bills. . Sir dons fittece.tia brought up a Bill for limit- I leg the number of pawners to be carried on -the outside of stage-coiclios. Read a first and sea* time, and committed. Report ordered to be Pellietz , ed„ end to bu taken into cuesideraCop eltit iiiir three months. , ,•••••Iss A Message from the lonia acquainted tt!e Hems that their Lordships had agreed to the Column: dated Fund Bill, and the Judges' Salaries 1)111; al. so to the ilankropt Laws Amendructit Bill, ;with amendments, to which they desired the 1:411111611/4 1 renee of the Commons. lit" Sir S. Itoruasor regretted thatAhe Lords should have thought it espedient to introduce any aite. rations into his Bill, but as be conceived it was still capable of producing much bandit to an tin. fortunate class of men, he hoped the House would concur in the amendments suggested by the Lords. Theamendaseats were thou agreed te. Mr. Jonnsirema, from the Chief Secretary of Iftland's Office, presented certain Papers, rela tive to the Police Establishment iu Ireland. Or dered to be printed. Mr. WILSZILIOILCZ presented a petition from die Rev. Spencer Clarke, vindicating himself from the aspersions thrown on his character by thu pa titian of tits Reverend Thomas Humphrey, pre sented a few* days ago.--Ordered to lie ou the table. Mr. Rosa condemned the petition of Mr. Hus sy, cud thought that measures ought to be opted to prevent such petitions (rues aiming be. fl u ore the Howse. • '‘. Mr. S. [Amax bore testimony to 11616411atUille of Mr. Clarke, and declared, that that fiber pug of the allegations of Mr. liumphrey's • petitistb were unfounded. fir T. Tuarom presented 4 petition from Mrs. *sty Ann Clarke, praying that the • Papers be,,, longing to her, which came int& the possession iit the Howie through the means of-Mr. Nichols, at ! Ifearpstcad, should, be restored to her, or some pers.in whom she shook( Appoint to receipt the same. • . .?.. r. - After a few words from the Catascam.oa of the EXCUTQUEI the‘Papers were onisred to be re. turned to :tine Clukis. • , . M. Cases iagia:red, whether) the India Pa. pens, which he had nio•vtl, would be forthcomieg previous to the clue of the Session ? Dir. OuNaAs replied, that act Papers would be reedy to.morrow.. • A message (turn the Lords acquairtii:d the House that their Lordships bad agreed to the Paupers' Removal Sill with Amendments. .9.. 4 I,t.IrCHILISTER WATER WORKS. l Sir j. Gllllll/6111 moved that the lueeeduienb scut Owe from the Lords be most keu into coo .tie.. el Sisster moved, so .s L5.5..L.,,,i. that they should be considered this day three months. Aries aOw words from Mr. 11. Beowrie, the 'louse divided, when there appeared— -3.11. pitAmeutmeat, . - 73 o i i , . . 36 • --- Weer) , MIST INDIA CADE TS. Odour ei.admission we found Sir T. TUILTON jiis lap, commenting on that part of the Re rEsthe Committee on the Ab us es o f E as t I n. Patronage that receorlended the Mal of all such Officers in the Company's service whose Of. feel bad been purchased . ; ,this be thought to be a tissiseres of reprthcespie severity, and acting ri. porously and cruelly agaisst a number of inno cent young man, who 'not oat at an age when it wes hepoesiblo for . Oleos to be *gallty , of the.* fence fur ablels the.y wet new to be punished, by an oilier that woUld eventasiii, bajfroduciiii9f their risllN mid blast all their hopes in lire. — Ito nil that he trusted 4 h that Part of *Cite portiroutd not hi acted upon ; and if it was not, ho would be willing to withdraw his motion s but 1 aqt otherwise. Ile then moreil 4, rim the Ifeettosbeelsfresetve ;that Howe did rot teat= In the leporCof Clam" 14411‘11101tit iaiptit!ti We the LAW. of FA:4lmila PaViages at! Sop & r eli e d to the housedinte ocreuity of males, resdarctichie Teetwable a balding any Pause ottoothaii, Owe pelesue. *be; the Bakst teoweeeter iguentht if dot =ma by *kith theiiotta soigne SW* pagoda wears hit Situ relied dr-% mOmere severity erttVy rept;eatat tojltiddtjoitiee m l the stair! of seeasaty.' that he at communication had not influenced the . alluded to. In Order to wen had hal sufficient notirc, of the Court in the year tiott of the consequences , corrupt practices now prohi. adverted to the Report, to a sieti. Court in the year 1790. lie moving the .pre tits us question. `z spoke in favour of the iteport thought that the House they shotild interfere with the lie called upon the Hut JO ket invested in the Court present Resolution went said that it was quite futile %%inch had been nestle, 11 - .hey to . Acted a, ay by excepting dial soils of the persons who had purchased those AL: tuations. As, therefore, the motion appeared to' hint to have have a tem k to interfere with the Court of Directors and the Act of Pariiament, he should vote filmiest the motion. Mr. WINDHAII iaid that he could not help adverting to that subject upon which, on a former night, he had occasion to make sewse observatiene. lie meant that sort of outrageous virtue, that, while it laid chiles to Immaculate parity for itself,, went beyond all bounds iu venting its vengeancil against the alleged criminality of others. Thie l was too much the principle in the present case. I la this way of overdoing justice, Gend 1 seemed to argue in the same way the great i w 6 of Pruseia did; who, when a soldier in a • ' breeze had his hat blown off, had the soldier Se verely puttished foe this accident : and it certainly was observed afterwards, that whether the man was innocent or not, fewer hats ft.4l of afterwards [a laugh). lie, however, was nut for arguing liw ir titis manner in order to justify the punishing t innocent, which be took to be impossible. Ah indeed, before guy such absurd priudpie was sorted to, he was foe- cencta prism iratandet Every means should be tried to get at the cud de sired, before they should adopt so harsh and u just a mode as war suggested by the Report o • the Committee. He Should tote fur the original motion. • ' Mr. WALLACE defended the Report of the Goostuittee, and thought the plan proposed the I most effectual remedy to check the growth of ~ the coil they complained of. • I Mr. sTEINI EN was rather of opinkni that the Committee went farther than they need have gone, in recommending the proposition they had done; ' the young nten who would be sufferers hi conse quence of such a proposition being carried into effect, had not been guilty of the offence they wished to punish. They would be, however, at. tcrly ruined if it was brought to bear against them. Many of them were now established there, and it would be hard to reml them after the seeds. hots they had made. Tearing themselves, at a_ period of life when the affections were most warm, treat all those dear and near ties of blood by. which they were bound to their families and that homes, to go into a distant world in search of as honourable competence, after they had, perhaps, impaired their constitutions, or for any other rev. son had become unqualified to gain in this saints* * suitable subsistence. it was said, but let their then suffer ; perhaps the father was long In the ,orate, and the sem now the only staff of a declin. lag mother, or dependent sisters. Ho here ap. pealed in a very fueling manner to the Hesse, and besought them them to beware how in the ardour of their goad Intentions they might-be hurried to confound the innocent with the guilty. Mr. GRANT, in a low tone of voice, sup oorted the Amendment. He thought that the mo. tion of the Honourable Baronet had a tendency to interfere with the Court of Directors, and the Act of Parliaineot which invested then with the powers they had. Ho- contended that the Gentlemen hi question had had more than sufficient notice of the oonsequesce of such purchases, by the public ad. vertisement of the Court of Directors, in-the Lon. dun Gazette, in the year 1800.. The plan pro. posed did appear the most effectual; but he was confident the House would have no reason to complain of any harsh application of the rule if once adopted. Besides, it was now Under consi. deratiew before the Court of Proprietors, and he thought it better to wait until their decision was known. ifs should vote for the previous question. Mr. FREEMANTfA& said a few words in fa., r‘ siir of theuriginal motion. ri,,e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER to uug ee.'hat the proposition of the Honourable Baronet w05...i 4 —se doe if adooted by the House, to neutralize t ote ßesolutions or tbt - Cumin-tor., Le would also have a u rger effect than Gentlemen were aware of—it shoir: 4 be followed up by a motion rescinding th e Iteno:zttion in the Report that had already been received. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY saw to impropriety in that House coming to any iteseplitjon upon a Report of their Committee ; but he saw *real in , justice in the modest procedure recommenced for the vocal of those Gentlemen, whom they could r l oot pet inta,the same place here, of which they deprived them in India, though avowedly innocewt of the offence they wished to put a atop to—not to dwell upon the sacrifice of health, friends, and connections, "thick they had submitted to, the iii- justice itself, was sufficiently flagrant without dwelling upon any other consideratioe ; what' ' would they say Of thole Legislators who would enact thersaishisMattof the children of those of fenders who hatd 'lad their country, in order to avoid the consegeence of their crimes 1 l'he cosies were parellec. tar in the present instance ,tt I were gulag to pettish the children ff for the opi , lof the father. Bet he ceefessesti he did .titird how well io aceotest -for the great ilisplat '' :i stere jostlie Gentienstuou the • other side • Iso embltieme to make Lika r l]e' evict on that, House toes in .their. places ha Verliainent, anti, *hove ail, its Volt session of Parliament l—a sessian i io the course of which these austere notions jollies had beep so saftened..down ark! areornino. I t listed to existieg eirettarstaiees--41 session in whirl . allowance and room %VIM Heide .. peniten tie [ 1 , ' hear !]»: .. The offenders, to be sure, were rather of a highef order than that °fan humble Cadet( I. 1 ear , hear n But surely such rigorous proceediugs did not be come that Haase in thst instance against those avowedly innocent, when in a case in which a Se ' crelary of State was the accused, they thought It 1 , ,sight to go no farther iii it, because it was possi ble thetas he did out complete the crude, lie might have haply repeated before he would have coui 'pleted it. If in that and other instances they thought it better to look rather to the futnre than the post, why should they think differcutly now ? When'even in the case of Mr. Beauchamp Hill, who was charged with receiving bribes, to connive l at frauds in the revenue, they had thought it best' to overlook what' was gone by, upon what prin. i elide of consistency could they now 'adapt a' ! course of such implacable severity towards the in. 1 nocent I - The ATTORNEY GENERAL was appro. hens;ve that the iirgurnents resorted to by his Ho nourabie and Learned Friend had been mails: use of for the purpose of introducing the observe. thins with which he had closed his speech. lie' was against interfering with the Court of Di. rectors. Mr. PETER MOORE said, that the injustice affecting the yearns Cadets, then perhaps hghting the battles of their country, and resulting from the plan proposed in the Report for their meal, was so open' and flagrant as to be utterly iudefea. tible. Mr. LUiIIINGTON was so confident that tbo Cadets would suffer uo injustice flAn the :Court of Directors, that he would vote for the previous qnestion. Mr. C. WUTCHINiON paid a tribute to Sir Samuel Rumilly, and commented oil the happy epplicatiens of that Learned Gentleman's observe .tions to the preceediugs of that House during the present Sessions. Mr. HENRY SMITH was for the previous treestion. , Mr. NICHOLAS VANSITTART expressed a wish that the Court of Directors would reconsider , their determination. - • Mr. HENRY THORNTON said, that though , the rule might in strictness bethought: a harsh cue, still, as under the contritel of eke Directors it would experience relaxatiOtt, he thotrght the OW. tion was unnecessary. Sir T. TURTON then replied—He said that it was admitted that the rub) ought to be relaxed, but if it was so harsh a one, why should it nut.ra. tier be given up altogether. He denied that his ..Resolcitiuti had any tendency to interfere with the powers of the Court of Directors or with thee Act .of Parliament. It was a Resolution upon a pits. sage in a Report of their Committee, and it was every way competent fur them to diming and tie. cide upon it. Ao Honourable Director bad ridi. 1 culed his (Sir Thomas's) floating ideas upon this ' subject. This wit was new front that Hon. Gen. dollen, who was rather distinguished for more solid mental qualities. But there were some who let their wit hurry them too far ; aceurding to the Poet-- " Thereon whom lieav'n has Wesel ellb store of o it, " Unt waist as wit again tom:twice it." _ But he . aenied that his was a floating idea...it was at anchor on paper, and be now called upon the Mouse to decide upon its merits. The House then divided, when the Resolution of Sir Thomas 'furton was negatived, the numbers being, _ Met - - - - 1 N'oes . . 3i 77 Mg** 42 Lord 03SULSTON owed that the It et rn of Offices under 2001. a-year, and of Offices in the Colonies, presented to the House this day, be printed. Mr. THORNTON was afraid one of the Re. terns would be found too minute. The Committee bad divided them into two parts, fur the purpose of allowing one of them, which alight he necessary to be printed, and that parts only of the other might be selected. He p,rtieularly noticed the great expence of printing papers laid before the House, which were often found in a great respect useless. After some conversation, Lord Ossuiston agreed to confine his motion to the description and num ber of the offices, and to bring it furward to-mor row. PUBLIC ECONOMY. . Mr. WARDLE row, according to his notice, and said he hoped he should be indulged in the ob servations which ho was about to make, as he had been so very particularly called forward. It bad been represented that he had talked widely concerning the burthens of the country, and the grievances from which it might be relieved. lie thought it but in justice due to himself, now ape. clfically to state that n hich he had before stated on the subject ; he had said, as nearly as he could recollect, that if the house of Comin.ins was re. formed, and placed upon the original footing upon which the Constitution intended it should stand, the amount of the income tit: might be *used to the country. If Gentlemen in that House thought. proper to reprehend him fur such language, he need. only refer them to the terms in which a great 'Statesman, whom they Were in the habit of look. •ingnp to with reverence, had expressed himself on tkielebject in the year 1782. In that year Vr. Pitt, speaking en a Reform in Parliament, i said, " that if the Howse of Commons had been always steady to the eaten:6la of their constitn. , cuts, then no such burdens us now r.risted would. Li:suffered by the ctunitry." Now the laugisage which he (hi,. WivWlr) hid veal,, -was by nu means equally Wiroog With this. All r he had salt' was, that if a Reform took place, then great ex_ owners might he saved to *the enimiry ; but Mr. .41001.4111 nut scruple to assert, that If the of Comatapwaeas as it ought to be, .then such expel). egs never w0i.:.l have been incurred. It had been ; made a matter of public accusation against him, the ho had attacked' public men ; he tunk tills or. ' csaion of auleawily deelarhig lhat lie had nerd done so. Re might have accused or • ••#rN , • ,: r - - : 77.= - 777",' -•.--7 - -7- -......- • Ilk i . . . I ' w ' ' t 4 .4 Mar r- APIEr i • 1411PEielalL .PA R LIA Alfilletr".... „ ‘l..‘‘.-.—"--.‘. .. blr. DUNDAS said, tl --........- 4 s on : 4 er Ansrt of I)ireetors must i HOUSE OF LORDi."4 •** r.. frith respect to any ci , r liouse, still that House ~, Alft'nda,fts Joffe ."g ...' Resolutiou of the Court i In a Committee of Privileges ' ,the ho ~ 1 )(0 .,, e , that thu y ou ng I n u i t Came, the LORD C UANCELLOR , foi"theth rhl al he read an advertisement rosamed his arguments, and stated his opiniiasi Iso6, giving due notifies! when the further consideration was deferretitM to. resulting from the corral 1 morrow. bited. Ile also adverted The Royal Assent was given, by Commission, lar effect of the saute Cot to the folhwing Bills : the Woollen Manufacto_ concluded with moving 11 revs, the Irish Militia Revelation, the insolvent Mr. BANKES spoke Debtors, the A(rlcau Coffee, the Irish Revenue of the Committee, and t Regektion, and the Sale or Parliansentalry Seats should pause before they Bills. 1 Court of Directors. IT< The Commissioners etre the. Lord Chancellor, 1 t o r ec oll e ct, that th e .1/e! the Duke of Montrose, an d I,..trJ IValainaham. I those powers which the 1 A few Bilk Here brought up from the Commons, :to interfere with. Ire set among which was the Bankrupt Laws 13111. *i to itsake the provisions v Adjourned. i they were to be frittered .---.-- • • . .- • TUB STATgSMAN. . _,..... horteur wllllO4 the there had been so mttch of gcner9us allu at all tildes to attend tarnency, and where such abundant w assiestion from that . Bride fur the locus penile:: liar ! [flair, Iv I I , , ...5..: MC -1.41 , men in place, but al individuals he certainly never did, or at least, if he did, he was sorry for it, as it wad contrary to his intention, aml to the qunstnet tenor of his life. If it was meant, however, by attacking men, Cost he attacked ,corruption, he was proud to plead gritty to the accusation, and to declare openly and plainly, that while he held a seat in all /loose of Cunimons, he would with all his powers attack corruption both in and out of that Houk. in 17 4 2 Mr. Pitt also declared, that the defective state of the representation was thedieease under I which the nation laboured, and that without a re. form no good Mini-ter could be of use, end no 1 honest Minister would remain in office. If thi I t was the opinion of that great Statesman, why 1 should the same sentitnents be reprehended In others now ? Without dwelling hither on them opinions, he could now come to the principal bit. : ject of his speech, the sating which might be madu to the public. In the year ISO*, the pub. Ilie expenditure amounted to 71 millions of mo. nu. In 1809, from a survey of the estimates presented to the House, it increased to 79 millions. A great ravish instead of this great inereese, i r be thought might have been made. The first ittl do to which he should refer was, that of the 1 houtehohl troops. There were two regiments of i horse guards, consisting of upwards of eight loin. dred men each, and one regiment of Blues, cone I sluing of six hundred. Now it was well known, I that these troopi were seldom or never sent oft !service ; and in iris estimation, if five hundred of I them were kept for parade, it woold he folly slat. ficient. The amount of cavalry also which was kept up on our establishment exceeded all bounds. At present we bad of dragoons twenty.three thou sand-three hundred and uinety.nine men. Ire had taken particular pains to be informed on this sub— ject ; and he was convinced by the representations of those who had the best right to give information, that 15,000 would be folly sufficient fur any see. rice we alight require, exclusive of those employed in the Fast Indies. By this diminution he would propose to save 1,270,0001 anuually. The next article he could-refer to was, that of our foreign corps. These amounted to 22,973, the eipencs fur the-support of which amounting to the extent of 1,800,0001. annually devolved upon the coup. try. This he thought by far too great a force, and particularly of this description of troops. Ile was not singular in this opinion: he was borne out by no less an authority than that of Lord Chatham, who in Ric year 1757, when the bug. bear of invasion was stalling through the land, thought it most politic lr) din's, these foreign troops altogether. Incontestibly *an House of Commons reformed, as he thought this; ught to be, would never consent to expend the public money in support of such a force. Ire did nut mean to Icut cm them, ns men, any particular reflection ; but he thought a suspicion ought always to light On mercenary troopc. To justify this opinion, he heed only refer to the expeditions to goiberott Ray, to Malta, le !hoover, where many of our native troops were wholly employed in keeping the foreign troops from desertion. To the authority of Lord Chatham, if any wire wanting, might be joined that of Sir It. Wilson, 'and he front his soul wished that England had not a single foreign mercenary Is her pig. At all cents, they were a most doubtful species of force, and it was astonishing to think that some of their offi. jeers even had been placed in rank above Bristish I officers by having their commission* antedated I The next corps to which he shook, allede was the Royal Staff Corps, which cost the country an. fluidly 20,0001 and which, beXides being a very espetisiveetitablishment, was one of a perfectly novel description, for it belonged to the engineers ; and If any such fume had been wanted, it would have been easy to increase the engineers, instead of institutiug this new denomination of troops. The Militia of the Milted Kingdom also cost the country annually three 'millions, of which, by at. lowing half the men to spend a month employed at the harvest, 300,0001. might be saved. The expellee attending on the Local Militia, amoented to 1,218,0001. out of which 800,0001. was allowed (or the Staff!' This he must call an expenditure huth unnecessary and profligate, and one whicta would be +Turned at by a reformed lions. of Corn. Mons. The clothing of this corps was must extra. isgani, It amounted to no less than 31, per man; whereas half -a-guinea per man would have been fully sufficient to procure them jacket and trow. sers, which was all that was necessary for the pur. poses e( uniform. By this, 700,0001. annually might be saved. The expence of the Volunteer force was also estimated at 1,000 4 0001. per annum. This was also useless; for the spirit of the coun— try, and the attendant advantages on the service, such as exemption from ballot, Ice. ought to be sufficient to lathes men to enter into it. Thii was the CiISC in Ireland ie dinl7rl92ising Volunteers and Sir Robert i 4 obert Wilson, now emou Portugal, bore evidence to Its no !fey. " every householder," says. he, " shoeld keep a stand of arms in order, and should know the snot them." Fur such a species of force military clothing was not necessary. What had attire to do with men who could be employed but six works ha the year? tic next atherted to the Royal %Vaggon Train: in support of thin force 48,9931. was menially expended—it was Tillie useless, fur it could only he misplayed at Lome, where its ser. vice was not requisite. This was evident at Co. penhagen. Ile also objected to the histiention of the Manx Feecibles, which cost the country 21,0001 per esteem; volunteers also were in use in the hie of Man: not, above all, the expense attending oto the Mat of the army. It amounted to no Ito% than 4104491. per annum. Now if 100 het an opportunity of going at length into the :.olJject, he w pelt! u natertel e to imam that 200,000 J. -..41tt be satr:ll. Of the expenditure of reel-int. .n.;, staff, td filth ettionnted. to 319,0001. annu. 111 2 , tti,oool might be saved, The cost to the co l ,ir ) in army aanary was 61,0731. Now if a r,0:1 Int ag 'lcy office was established, he thottehf 1., 1:30.. in the Wit !Deice might be saved, and ! deride?, a eintilar sum so the Pav Office. The florists Artillery cost 113,0001. In this service ' coetract horses were now used, where artillery 14144 :' ,011 had berm used Otto re. ie tortificatiaus at , I