The Statesman. — London, England, 1819-06-16 00:00:00

for Hertftwdottire. with respect to the detittelinat for • lereitteit b. the hialt.terr. In the itainunt of the duty on the stork Ia anted. Il an. tine of great imp,,rimwe gal ii. "tin. the NM to he 'rad • wood drew withont obletthie u, h, a. that Mudd he in adapt thejewitire of its prinelple. The Sew reading had Sten plnte at a late period tor the evening ; the ierarid was peon proposed at as earl' period 8 whet the Il• nottrable Meet. Derf oh. hod derlored that he would tnke tbe woo. tallit HAWS spoor if. ORS not grew,. blaltsteis enold oaf sell their wilt few the prier viliwto the barley not them. b es id es lasing the 'grille of late, mhos , wsat.- de.; and sow they wM rolled orna to safer an additional lonia 9, 4.1. t. "miler! 11 he rosin indulge a hnpr teat the Pitch, lion. Grioleninn would tole the ra.e into ronsiderntina. and in the Cintotttee alms* the dot, an the stork in Una& he would nut oppose the second rending of the Bill; otherwise Iv moil take the NOW of she Wow so It. The CH AN CI.LLOR of the ENCIII•QU ER, ftt we ander plood she diet /Cm. liestleatn.. Intimated Ilptl he wooed cAtitler the eweninstsswes eh eh had beta tuentionrd t after which. the Ben ow read a vetoed time, and ordered to be coos wowed on Frtifity. Mr. Gripes, ONCII.OW gave node*, shat on Wed. weedaF the 23d instant. by world nine* for leave to bring a Bill to amend the Acts relative to the 'dodo sine of Allocates into preetiee. Sir JAMES MONTGOMERY postponed gent day seoniglit, his motion for Paper, relative t o Mr. Prliebard's Petition, complaining of arts of oppregion committed in ritish America (Red River Settlement). The Loiter," Bill went through ■ Committer, the Report et which was ordered to be received to morrow. PUBLICANS' LICENCF. 4 I BILL. The Order of lb* Day kering been read for taking into limber consideration the Report of ibis Publi cans' Licences !legislation Bill. en the motion of Mr. BENNE:I7 the Bill was re-erienmitted. A long diwession ensued on several classes. is which variousa amendnienti were made. On arriving at ibe clues by which so appeal was provided from the Liceering Maeistrates, Mr. BENNETT expressed his apprehension, that is consequence of the great opposition which that clause seemed to esperiesiee, be should he ender the necessity of relinquishing it. lie stated shortly the considerations which had urged bins to introduce the Bill. It was well kaolin that there were • great many brewers, who, for purposes of interest, entered into Corporations, became Magistrates, and ultimate ly proprietors of poblie.booses. These persons sere in many cases induced to give • bounty nn the fon. sumptien of their own liquor, by the encouragement of every kind of vice. He had received a letter from a respectable Clergyman at Ese'er, stating that be resided in a parish of that cite, inhabited by the poorest classes of She people, WO in number, of whom only IS paid Pours' Rates. That eat of those eighteen, seven kept public-hoeses ; five were within a hundred yards of each other. That, nevertheless, one of the Members of the Corporation, who was a brewer, wished In set up another hoes, in the parish, egainst the vitelsirshoseut of which the Clergyman in question had in vain applied to the Magistrates, tr► his Diocese., and to out of the kleualters.—The lion. Gentleman here read a list of the number of brewers who were Magistrates la a variety of small towns which he named, and declared the happiness which be ►hould feel if he could be the bumble in strument in pelting down so great en evil. Mr. COURTENAY warmly defended the Mogi striates of lb. City of Reeler soloist the charges pre ferred against them, wet in Ilse Report of the Com mittee on the subject, bet on an ex parte statement contained in an anonymous {wit And what was the whole of this mighty Lion? That in the opinion of a Clergyman of Easter there was one •le.hoose too much in a parish of that city. The lion. Gentleman felt so strongly that the sense of the lines* was against the clause which he had de scribed, that he abandoned it; and, having Own cloned it, proceeded to utter calumnies age:nst a body of an who were sot there t• saswer for them selves. Mr. BENNETT replied, that as he bad been ac. tamed of ealuancy, he world read the lute► and the name of lb. Clergyman front whom he had received it, which the Hon. Member accordingly did. Lord EBRING'TON said a few words, the pur port of which we were unable to collect. Mr. COURTF.NAY explained. Lord MILTON said, be coald rent help complain ing that bis lion. Friend had consented to abandon the clause relating le, boroughs and 'owns having N. pirate jurisdiction•. where the evil chiefly Palsied In the country the peblic-bouses were no dosbi,often in the hands of the brewers; bat the Magistrates did not let the evil attain such a head. Ile would press it on his Honourable Friend not to abandon the dance. Atte , 401Pe farther obstrtations en the part of several htembers. s tlivisiss took pleeo— k'••r tP. Cltwr, 7, I Aga,fi , 4 1 , , Ili I M jor;ty, 3R. Some diacoasinn took place as to whether certain parts of Suuthirsek and its vicinity, not ender the ju.iodiciinn of th• City of ',nudists, ought to fall within the operation ni Ih. Bill. and Mr. II SUM NER. %with whop the disunion ea. gin-ted, staled that he could sot press t►e retailer et prrseht. but could take an opportunity of bringing the solject forward In a future stage rifthe Bill. . . 'f golfer diem of the Bill were then read and es: red 10. The Mew reamed, sod the Report was ordered to be teerilegl le-onrrner. lIVIAV YRS OF CARLIM.E. Mr. CUR%% F.N •1.h.el in ask a risestion as to s Petition which hp understood hod been referred by Als lteyst Iliihness in his Ministers, fin. the Wearers of Carlisle and snoop other pile's ;Asti any areasolos bars rakes, or were any i• contemplation for their relief ? Lori CASTIERFAGH 'aid lon wen not In pa union of any lu•shor infnunelion on this 'abject. FiIVILLUE OF THE HOUSE. - On the motion of Mr. C. W. W YNN, the Order of tit* lints, for the attendance of Mr. C. Brit, the printer of the Tian. we. teed. Mr. 801 l was called in, end esamined by the SPEAKER. The questions were simple; the pip,. pone of them was merely to lead to a ditto &corny of the reporter. Mr. Bell, boomer, rated, that the reporter was in attendance; he himself was or &lt'd 10 withdraw, and the reporter on, ( Mod in. The rrperter was then esomined II- itch...loodg ea the triton. and the r ° wetness of it ill .he I tint. Ile bed been 10 years in the he'll of repotting liassesitary intelligence, and hail norm , before been mused of neer. The confusion which pftvaileil in the gallery Pi the time he k the notes of .1e rffrlt• sire passage prevented him from understanding strict ly what Mt. Leos ow se) log ; but as fat as the ie. THE STATES ALAN, ientes of the Westin.' would allow him, he had given the report according to hi• tweet cne• ecientious conviction. Mach of the lapfinsfiffs Wee given him by a stranger in the gallery, who had so understood Mr. flume. lie woo also asked a I questions regarding the Time: establishment, the somber of reporters employed thereon, and the men nor of taking and waking reports, to all of which he gave leg and esplicit replies. The 'items was then ordered to withdraw, after which Mr. C. W. WYNN said, that hewing given his most wrings attention to what had passed la the eli mination jest concluded, nothing bed been said which could make him believe that it was any thing but a gross and libellous publication. He maintained that even if in thecae's* of debate reflections were made by *se Member. alluding to another, no printer would be justified in laying it before the Public.— For this he had oho highest authority, that of Mr. Fos, who In 1788 held, that though Members might' be justified, in the course of debase, in using particu lar longing, towards each other, yet a printer would not be justified In sending it forth to the l'oblic; and be, Mr. Faa) could hoagies cases where such conduct would be a high breach of the privileges of the House. It seemed to him (Mr. Wyatt) that though the publication of what passed in the House was only tolerated by connivance, yet that, when given, the ;unties so giving it to the Public were bland to give it correctly. The lion. Meffillwr con. Eluded by moving. " That the mid Paper is a acsnda. loos misrepresentation of the debates and proceedings of this Howse, • calumnious libel on the character of one of its Members, anal an aggravated breach of privilege" . On the qoestion b►ing pet, Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that it was cerium that If the Hesse agreed to this 'Letoletiou, they should go further; and perhaps before it was pet, it would be best to consider, whether. under all tb• circumstances of valorisation which the Holm bad berm!, they would take • step which would bind them, as undoubtedly this misers would, to another. Ile was not indiipoied to concur wish the terms of it, but there was a diScolty which was pre sented by the strength of them, and which might per haps be got over by adding words to the effect, lint in consideration of the circumstances which bad been stated, the House was induced to remain sasi•hed with a reprimand. Ile could were it tout for the circumstances of titteneation which had been brought to light, be should hale joined in voting for the severest punishment whirl. it was in their power to inflict. He was is the judg. ment of the Hoes* whether it was necessary to go over the eside•ce in order to establish the grounds of distinction which be bad in view. Mr. B. BATHURST aaid, that adverting to the evidence, some of the circumstances stated appeared Cu be somewhat singularly co.incident—that them. sage in question should have been so imperfectly heard; that the witness should have adopted the rest on the representation of a mere stranger; that it should have hese pet so offensively ; and that the nine, with the addition of cheers, ►hould have been Inserted in a parenthesis. Another unfortanste In. cident was, the loss of the witness's notes. which it was extremely desirable to have had produced.— Upon the whole, it was manifest that a case was writ v,,nn their coesideration, which it would be impossible to pass over without visiting it with sums punishment. Mr. PHILLIPS observed, that he regarded the defeats which had been made by the Gentleman she had withdrawn from the liar as a most ing.nooos, re ther than as that ingenious one which the Itieht Hoe. Gentleman geom.(' to consider it, It but shoat it every natural intlica.ion of sincerity ; and the state ment which had 'wen made bore with it all the ap pearance of troth. For himself he might shears., that basic/ fr►quently observed the Right lion. Gan. defeats (Canning) prone to associate lecherous images with subjects of distress— (Cries of No. No!) —if then he was mistaken on this point, it was not surprising that the witness should also have bees de ceived. Ile himself was persuaded, that there had been no intention to misrepresent ; and with 'big per. session en his mind, be could ant, es en honest man, vote that the Paper wag a scandalous and calumitioes I libel, although the melt of his feeling, if the Rose. lotion wets pressed, might he a division of the Hoes.. Lord CASTLEREAGH remarked, that if the proper course .if proceeding bad not been before ►vi. dint, the speech of else Honourable Gentleman •es calculated In guide them to it. The lion. Gentleman had made one more of thugs attempts that had of 141014" n 40 frequent, to impute to his Right lion. Friend (Mr. Canelea) conduct and f►eliuge of which he was locapeble. If such imputo inns were followed up in the daily prints, he weekd leave it to the Hoene to j u d ge w h at meat become of the privileges of Fortissimo.— peer !)—lf they had any regard for their owe dianiry or privileges, ■nd unless they were willing to leave them entirely at the meter of the reporters, they would, without bearing bard en the iedividesl who was the subject of enimadversien, end oho might not t• have reported any matter on the idle suggestion of a stranger, deal with this case on public grounds dewy. Ile felt himself bound to say, Is the present state of proceeding the House could not, consistently with its privileges or dignity, receive any comnsunicetiee from the individual who had been examined, until he should be is custody. —Pear, howl Mr. PHILLIPS explained. Mr. ABERCROMBIE said it was important that the grounds of their judgment, whatever it might be, should appear upon their Jooreals.— The manner of the skews had deservedly made ' general prepossession in his f and he could almost wish that the listings of the Resolution was less siren. The witness had *smiled himself to arger* reproach, bet ►is conduct that day at the bar recommended him to their most favourable consis devotion. He had incurred much blame its adopting the tepreventstiets of a stranger, and this was it, it. ,elf a great utronce. At the same time the maintier whii.h the misstatement was accounted 1.. r satisfied him of its sincerity. He conceived, therefore, that whilst some punishment was doe, the House would do itself honour In rendering It us mild and of short donition as possible. Lord coiwroN observed, that in the you 1814 a grass misrepresentation hail been made of a state ment respecting a piece of •err remarkable evidence before a Committee, which hue bars submitted by the lion. Mealier for Winehelm,. The evidence was of such a nature that it had been smack rout of the Minutes of the Committee, but bad been read in she Bonne by the lion. Member. It was represented in the Newspaper that this esidence bad been given by another lion. Member; and notwithstanding this double falsehood, had not been punished by the Hussy. Ile thought this a much stros•ger cue than the present, and as the• author of dist publication bad been suffered to escape, it would ant he fair to adopt Wont measures in a MP iu which the error was con fessed, and the r+u.• of it explained. Mr. PROIIII:ROE b.-tiered that many Bun. Members, after the ...Awe which 'bey bad heard, were prepar►d to repress their belief that there had been no malignity. There was one point to which he wished for a moment to call attention ; it related to a smite, or a.. slliseinn to a smile, which bad been described se 'wrestling the Tr...eery Bench. In the statement of t' e Ilon. Gemleman himself (Mr. Home), all reference to il.is was nmitted ; bet he so. &won., (torn s I Ilon. Members then present, that such allusions had been made by him. It might he Ira! that the Mose could not investigate thegues. lion of intention when the maintenance of Its prig!. leges became nee y ; hut it might at least be admitted as ■ consideration in determining the men. sure of punishment, and he himself should vote for the most lenient. Alt. C. 1I U ICIII NiON said the last two speeches would be sallicient to guide his vole, if it had not bees previously determined OD theSSON aide. Anxious as he was to support the privileges of the House, be should be sorry to do 911 liv n act of oppression.— Ile should willingly vote that the flublicatios was an unjustifiable breach of privilege; hot as he could not keep intention out of his view, anti as an ussqoalified apology bad been made, he could not join in any' rot►, the almost nec ***** y consequence of which waled be a enmosittrent to N►wgste. Mr. BRAN!) obarrved, that a clear statement, a tn,nly apology, bad been made. Ile could not ex clude from his consideration the point of intention, eye. s'th.•tsgb the conseq might be, that the res. sons of ibis proceediog would Doi appear upon their Journals. It would. he thought, be better for the Hostas, and for the Public, if some farther accom modation were furnished so the persons, who, not. a othstaotling the shirttail iv, in which they were placed, already pertorm►tl with 110 small diligence and ability the task of communicating to the country what was said and done in Parliament. Wltatevor additional advantages they enjoyed would be accompanied by a proportionate responsibility. Mr. %V VNN.—Was there any man who could read an segment of what was said to halo passed as reported in that Paper, and contrast it with that cc. count of what did really peas. as given by the Hon. Member, and not say that this was a most gross and scandalous misrepresentation?—(lhar !)—He re. (erred particularly to that part abaft which he had heard no eiplanstinn—he meant the " continued cheers." Now, that was a circumstance which the Reporter vivid not possible mistake. The second pert of the resolution oas, that this was a calumnious libel on one of the 11emliers of that llonosrable Huse. Here the Hon. Gentleman moved for the reading atlas passage, which was immediately read by the clerk. If it did not amount to a calumnious film en the Right Hon. Gentleman, be did not knew what wee a caleetni eel libel. The concluding allegatime was, that this was an aggravated brew! of privilege. lie did ■ot think that to the pretreat case he could apply a slighter espression, for be did conceive tt to be aggravated from two circemstances, which he had made mention of. It appeared to him, then, that this was en aggravated libel, and after ell that they had heard, he did not know hew to describe it in ins slighter way. _ _ Lord BINNING said, that they would be pleased to recollect, that hi. RtAlit lion. Friend bad stated last night, that having then brought the matter fully before them, and having laid the Pipers on their ta. bk., he bad done his duty ; that after the ample dig. avowal made by the lion. Member for the Aberdeen Burnogh, he was completely satisfied; and the rest it was for sheet, not for him to tin. Ilia (Lord Bk. nin4's) object iU !inn was testate to the Mouse, that it was for those reasons that his Right lion. Frisad hail ah.eoteil himself that day. Th.. SPEAKER then proceeded to put the gees lion. upon the Rentlotion moved by Mr. Wpm, which w 44 carried, with tome dissentient voices. Mr IVY NN then rose.—lt now became his defy to follow up them which the noose had just beard proposed, and had agreed to, and which he believed to be a proper and necessary step. He well knew that it was imponible to give with certainty the exact and strict expression of any man, but he could not conceive how it was possible for such a perversion of what really pennies Ibis was to hate taken place. The notice of " Cheers," he certainly considered as giving a character and colour to these proceeding. It might be material here to refer to the period of the commencement of the French Re volution; when the Iranian's Assembly of that country did admit persons indiscriminately into their gallery, as matter of right, to give reports of their proceedings. They were given with so many poli tical partialities, and in so garbled and inaccurate a manner, that in order to guard against Ibis growing abuse, it became imereassry for the principal Members to publish newspapers of their own, with reports of their several speeches. Ile had certainly experienced surprise at the general ability and accuracy with which the debates of Parliament were given; espe cially consideriag the very short lime in which they had to appear. lie did not, h•serer, see that their being published at nine or ten in the morning, in. stead of three in the afternoon, for instance, was • sufficient advantage In Justify or outweigh an ilium. racy or misrepresentation of this kind. Considering; the nature of the offence charged, he thought it nee cessary to move that the Reporter, " having confess. ed himself to be the author of the said paper, Is for the said °fleece committed to his Majesty's Jail of Nesigate." Mr. GURNEY, after • yew observations delivered its a low tone of snit% oheereed. that with respect to what had fallen from she How. Oeotteeloolt about the " Cheers," topes, which so much had been obeer to, be was entering the !louse at t h e time alluded and was on the !lune, when he r•ifainif did bear a_ *oral cheers from them benehet.—( /haw I) Mr. BROUGHAM was *Mimi to believe tbe dis claimer winch- had met the charge of personal feel ing; but with respect to the culpable negtigonce with which the 11-porter stood charged, the House was bound both in consistency with Its own forme, and in justice to the person so charged, to tyke ii.tO its consideration what had been the usual course in these cases. Ile did net emu thst they were to be hound by their former lenity, chick might possibly hare given rise to the present case ; hut hec••se 'list lenity might hove bed a tendency to mislead the per sons who reported the debates, and to proton, their stleotioa being directed to report (if they look eves themselves to report thews) such pinePedings, with ee greet accuracy as the system admitted. Instances of this kind mete very numerous. No longer ago than yestetday a speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend sitting near him (Sir Jai**. Matiadati.), which Qtw whole Howse, in common with himself, bad beard with the highest sdmiratiee. was meat grossly Sisre ',resented in the Pepe(' to which he alluded ; and that, not after a short time, not in a berry, bet after several days, and is conjunction with I other articles of the urns indecent character. This spree% was declar ed to be a most ishamelets and impodeet attack en Ferdinand VII. An attack, and the., he hollered. a most elfecteal one, his Hon. end I.marned Friend bad thought it undoubtedly his duty to note; but whether it was a shameless attack, it was left to no body to judge. It was for Hon Gentlemen to de 'ermine, together the reporters, partly by the ne cessities of their siteation, and partly by the !emir shown to them by the House on former occasions, had not been misled. If the commit's' of this indi vidual vas finally resolved on, as It appeared to be by that 11. use, he social only recommend it to rest satisfied with committing him to the custody of oho Sergeant-et-Arms, indeed of to !denote, whielilsad bees dome in a similar case—Kries of No, no! fro , s the Ministerial benches), iA • similar case of breach of privilege. and with making the term as short as Mr. DAMES spoke in favour of the original motion. Mr. SMYTII (Cambridge, as we were info►med) spoke so the precedent which had been alluded to. of the Editor of a Newspaper being committed to the custody of the Serjetnt.st-Arats. He glee his fell concurrence so the last meeiste, as Seggested by the lien. and Learned Gentleman. Mr. WYNN considered the piste of confinement • matter of no consequence. Confinement in the mrstody of Ilse Serjaant-at.A.m•, sho•eh not so dii grscef•l, els nisch mete impend,' than in Neogate. Sir J. hIACI,II . OiII submitted to the lion. Gent. (Mr. Wynn) whether the disgrace of the place of committal were not a consideration of the greatest moment, considering the app•srance and edecttiets of the person et the bar. It appeared ?o him to be of the utmost consequence that this digerati., tooli ng to three points, should be the slightest possible. Ile could not see how the lion. Gentleman could press a committal to Nengste, if this was not a wit ty, misrepresentation. Hut It was dais to the impres atm which remained upon his own mind to egress his own entire acquittal of that person from all charge of the ki.d. He said loathing with respect to any thing which the lints. and Learned Gentleman had said about some aversions or misrepresentations which had appeared in some Paper, relative to a speech lately delivered by him ('iir J. Macintosh). because any calumnies or malicious statements of such • character, be viewed with contempt, mod treated with neglect ; the Paper In question he had not seen or heard of till that moment. could not help observing, that he had lung watched with some degree of tare sod attention, On progress and conduct of the Papers of no day, penitently thole connected with the politica of both sides of the noose: and he must be permitted to say, that at no former period were they ever so distinguished for the ability with which they were managed, the fidelity and accuracy of their intelligence, the talents by which they were supported, or their general fairness; bet partite. lady, for their very great absti from personal animosities. lie must be also allowed to observe, that the condition of those persons connected with the Papers was much bettered and improved; arid that to impose any eneecessery disgrace upon mem bers of that body was to destroy that feeling of re spectability, which formed an infinitely better secu thy for the fidelity of their report, than any the se. Teton punishment which Parliament could devise. Mr. WILLIAM SMITH said, the Hon. Geode.. man (Mr. Wysii.) seemed to think, that the reporter himself might prefer being committed to Neivgale to bong taken into custody by the Setjamet-at.Asms.— Now, he keen the young Gentleman personally, and also knew something of his family ; and he could as sent the Howie that he was a person of respetabla connections, of geed education, and of repellent be haviour. Time could, therefore, be no doeht that to the Gentleman himself the punishment of being takes into the custody orate Serjeant.ai.Arnes warid be preferable to the degradation of being committed to Neogsie. Mr. W I 1.1.1 AMC (we believe) said, that in vapts. nation of the misraipsesesitaiien which had trivets rise to the present proceedings, bethought himaaelf in state, that on the evening of the debate be had sat behind the Han. Member for Aberdeen (Mr Hume,) and that he bad • distinct recollection of the C. 11016- ' Jog expression s—." The Right lion. Gentleman, sod the lion. Gentlemen noised him, may smile." 540.1 after this thong certainly were several cheery, ellhought no doubt, a few seutentes intervened, which were lost in the gallery. Mr. BENN Err hoped the line. Orntirmon •oold cheep the wording of Ms motion, end mike it a emotion for commitment to the custody of the Serkent ot.Arnes, because he wee convinced thef in be coo. milled to Neonate would. by a peann of odium , how and relined fertinge, Oats. Its that 0,e4111 *be ll loom Olen lens' of n .greprrerntetisu state. tAet be ike w id m h en/1141110ff the did or petiole rtsPecling it t he character of the o° 1 , 1 1 1 w.. 10, Ivy . p.-•-•••• - • - folt tie the groatest &grad.. Id e alism of tbo moti..o, e trwitott ild cccccc . While on the tuhject n• is the pobil• prints, he had to I bold lo his bind • peragrepti • m ost licentious shim. of that • of know whet enure. they leottiti t, bat io big opinion It •afrel.d whole Hoses. The ii,n. Mem. 4' • •• V r IP I . ;