The Statesman. — London, England, 1815-04-15 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN. w-::.—~...c A mhsetetlore; the system es , t.sere gone; upon was to propose to the House. • The Right Hon.-Gentle: altogether (Lieeteous : for if we alio vied persons ill mate however, bad presented the accounts in a fai th t , charmer to draw for estravagents sums, for lacious peint •f view, and.hadscirawn inferences from irecoreseeri expenditure, it a ould male them less at. them that could not be supported. He perfectly teutise to the burthetts imposed upon one country.— agreed with the Right Hon . Gentleman, that the So tar as re.oeved the charges made bs Lord Aber- dignity of the Court should be supported, and that demi, he really tielieved that ilimo was not a farthing the public should be protected against wanton prodi for w licit the Noble Lord could tint account; but gality on the part of the Crown. lie trusted that he maintained that it %vas urrnecessaly for an Eng- the House, by proper investigation, would be ade lisp Ambilsador to give such expensive treats, in Ciliate to both those objects. The Right Hon. Gen order that this country niteiit maintain a precedence. demur had been pleased to treat with disrespect the o . ther netions hail not the means of supporting such labours of former Committees; but he lied not done extravagaitice,:and the people of England might not justice to them, as they had been productive of great to la• charges with - such loose and unnecessary ex- public advantage, though not vested with the powers penditure. In thi• class, ceine the history of the for which the Right lieu. Gentleman then moved.— eichassy to Lisbon ; and he should be glad to know Tile Right Hon. Gentleman had complimented the wits Ireisters hail s, Jed a common elivoysitip into Treasury on the new regulation of the Board of as etuttasey, aud hat, appointed Mr. Canni n g to the %Yolks, but lie hoped lie would allow him to do jus sit cation of Airitnt,.sadui will. 14,0001. a year ? He tice to the Noble Lord at the head of the Lord Chem . should like to know why it was that Lisbon was to berlain's Department, who almost proposed the se be raised to an embassy ? It that Right Hon. Gen- motion. It would be necessary for him to clear tlepaagi were its 'he How, he should not call him to the Civil List from the obloquy which the Right Ho act' wit ;it wead not, he thought, be fair, since flesh pourable Gentleman had thrown upon it. lie had alai nti l could not resist such temptations.—[All said, that the average expenditure of the Civil List tozdt.3-I'hat Right lion. Gentleman ,was deputed for seven years, was 927,0001. ; but, upon the re to niva,- eloquent speeches to tee Prince Regent of trospect of that period, he would ask any Gentle- PorSug e l ; but *hat now turned out to be the fact ? man to consider whether the increase was beyond S., far, trom the Prince Regent having arrived at what must beexpected from the circumstances of the Lisboa. it appeared that he never intended to re- times ? All increase of 15 per cent. upon the pub. turn Milt; or. There was lio other case, perhaps, so lic . expenditure, in an arduous period, was not be o,.eir to attack, but he did not doubt that such ex- yond what might be supposed to result. The Right isted ; for what was the conduct of his Majesty's Honourable Gentleman had contended, that since Alinisters on this occasion? Why, in order to keep the year 1811, the system of economy had been to up the idea of the Prince Regent's return, they fitted tally disregarded, amid that, in 181'2 and 1813, the out a ship at an immense expellee, but with no other expenditure had increased to an average of object thou to give a colour to the appointment of 1,300,0001. It was, however, to the three quar tile Right lion. Gentleman. And why, he would ters last past that he had confined his observations, ask, had Ministers sent General Officers abroad to and to those he was particularly called to reply.— act in a military capacity ? 11l the course of last The total charge for three quarters of a year, to the year there were several honourable officers, among 6th of January, 1815, for the Departments of-the whom was Col. Ramsay, who had never attained the Lord Chamberlain, Lord Steward, Master of the rook of General ; but Lord Cathcart was made a Horse, and • Mister of the Robes, was, he said, Genesi', oil the Staff, and sent to act on the Con- 434,0211. 2s. 91d. Now, the Right lion. Gentle titiPot ; but w lint benefits had been derived from that man had not made any observations on the Lord Bonnet!~ ? It we would venture to ask any of Steward's Department, hut had done justice to his the great Powers, their answer would be, that they merits. The excess in the Lord Chamberlain's De weuel not giro ;•ikirPOCe for a hundred such Gene- pertment had been occasioned by the expenses of iu rals.—[,-f was not merely the expendi- ' vesting Foreign Sovereigns with the Order of the fuse of the Court, but its patronage also, that ought Garter, for furniture delivered at Cumberland and to be sire ill aith jealousy ; and the account ought Cranbourti:lodges, and by an excess of bills in the to be essmined, ill ortier that the country might Office of Works. The increase of expenditure in the know that the Cron a had not ton much, awl t .at Depertment of the Master of the Horse was (nen- Cirmormis a •re not too sparing. In 181 Z, •sioried by the establishment of her Royal Highness Iteeer 01. ea; voted to his Royal Highness the rrilice the Princess Charlotte, anti other necessary charges Hee( .it. In lel 1, 118,0001. was voted ; and for attendant on his office. The excess of expenditure .ries of last year 100,0001.: and was al r eady known to Parliament by an estimate w t was the re , trim a e got ? In the last three I id ' • .'ace them, and did not require any inquisito q•. tars ibe call was fur 427.1001. lie begged the vial crut ray ; and surely, if 180,0001. had been ex it use to be assuted, that tie. people would not pended ill the eeteriainments give...on the restoration seise •d, elide Ministers we, e calling for a renewal of peace, the House would not think it exorbitant of the Propetty T is. till they ba is this accounted on so joyful an occasion. The excess in the meta fo. iletre must be some uuderstanding between sional payments had partly arisen out of progressive Ninis'ers .d the Court, that the former would expenditure, which could be better explained by the wet holt the ex ; : n , liti.re of the latter. On the Secretary of State for the Foreign Department. He AViodsor establishment his ;Majesty had 160,0()01. submitted whether the Civil List might not be re the (,?nears 68,0;)01. and th, four Princess 16,0001. lieved from obloquy, by making provision by an in. exc its.. of eeiities. The expeediture of the head • tercedent vote,' instead of throwing expellees upon a Stresaii!'s d-pareeent. was 70,0001. ; of the Lord tumid already appropriated. He thou:gut it could he Chamberlain's, ; 01 . :he Master of the !terse, calculated upon so fair a basis us not to exceed the There v ere alto 58 horses for the Royal sum voted by the House; and be conceived, that a Est one sear, 1813, Lord Witichel- new estimate might he formed as suggested by the sea rid made a saving of 13,0001. but lie did not Right lion. Gentleman. Thinking, however, that know %%hat was 'here in 13r 1. As to Lori St. Ile- all these benefits might be obtained without going to lees, Ministers must net say that he was a Lord in the length proposed by the Richt llonanorable Waitieg ire the Kireg : be might be a very merituri.: Gentleman, he should beg leave to conclude by ohs •ersaiit of the Cress n ; ;lad if so, he should he movieg as an amendment, that the latter part of the provided for iii some other is as. lit 1810, her Ma.. motion, which related to persons, papers, and re jests ail increase of 10,0001.; and the only rea- coils, should be omitted. son that Nlt. Percevat ~signed for it wa , that it Mr. WARD declared, that the speech of the Might provide for Let. Majesty's travelling expellees. ' Right Hem Mover remained unanswered. A very For travellieg expellees ! Wh , her Majesty has coecidable and unnecessary expenditure had taken 58 horses fur travelt:eg ; but it 'Nee a -most produc- place, and he was perfectly convinced, that unless live year iii some quarters. Ile maintained there the Committee then proposed should be armed with Was N O oceasiou for it, and charges of this nature sufficient powers, no good whatever could be ex• were a most ungrateful return to people who had peeled to result from their labours, but Ministers made so many sacrifices for the support of rosaltv.— would come down from year to year with an increase Dal delivering these sentiments, he was only discflarg. on the Civil List, beyond• what was provided . for by ing t.i, duty to the country, and meant no personal Parliament. The Right Hon. Gentleman 'had al offence .n the Royal Family. Ile trusted, there- lotted to Cratibourn-lodge, but the real. expenditure two, that he should receive the 'batiks of the people, . bore no proportion to the estimate. The Hon. Gen who veered to see the duties of a Member of Par- tlemati, litter next alluding to a part of the payments Hewett fiith •. Ily di•charged. From sear to year which we did not distinctly hear,• begged, as there ail ecolinitly had been set at defiance : but if the was too muelt reason to suppose that we were on the Hoye' would exercise all the powers of ex- eye of a new war, to direct the attention of the yienditure, 4lie Commons must lose all estimation in House to the enormous charges to which naval offi tire eyes of the peopl... if. they did not apply their cers were liable,. in the condemnation of prizes, and rowers of conroul.—[fieue, hear!] —We gave that which often exceeded the proceeds due to the captors. to the (toy at Family ankh entitled us to a return, This was taking the fair emoluments out of the hands and they (eight not to trespass upon a generosity, of our naval officers, and putting them into the a 1, li is universally inailifested towards them. The lintels of proctors who did not earn them. lie was in Royal Family altogether received 9213,0001. a year, fnvniir of the nppointment of a Committee, with the and they owed a debt to us which ought to be paid, powers proposed. —it was * fair di.play of their accounts, in order Mr. BENNETT said, there were two ways it. that we might lint he burthened with any expctilli. which Ministers usually met a motion of this kind: cure that could he avoided. Ile believed his Royal —the one was to support it, and the other to seem to 11,glitiess the Prime Regent to be in the dark with agree to it, while they took care to attach same r espect to many of these'trairsections; but there was a thing to it that would deprive it of its efficacy. If duty imposed on the King's Ministers to ixplain the powers of the Committee were so conflued, as them to him. Ile had heard that they had taken the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed, it would be as from the Lord Cliambeilaili's department the super• useless as former Committees had been. There were intentlance of the public buildings, and he gave them one or two poipts, with regard to the Civil List, credit for it, as he had dime for every thing a here %hitch he wished to touch upon. It was an extraor he could : but there remained behind, the interior dimity circumstance, that after all the money that fitting up of paleces, am! he desired the Right Ilan. was paid to the Royal Family, considerably more Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Excite- than 900,0001., yet, after all, compared with former quer) to look at the charges fur glasses, and plate, limes, there was no Court. He was old enough to and fitting up of rooms one day, and altering them remember when there used to be two Levees and one the text. If that were looked after, the sums of Drawing-room a week ; now there was hardly a Inoney to he saved %Hold be enormous. Let Mi- Levee once a fortnight, and there had been only onel sisters give the II ouse an opportunity of thoroughly Drawitig-room tbieseeson. Notwithstanding all the i itivestigetine the items o f which the accounts were money that was paid, the public had really no composts and great expences might be saved. He Court. There were private parties, to be sure, at th en conc luded with ((((( viirg, that a Committee should Carlton-house ; but these were confined to persons be appointed to take into ciersideration the account of certain political opinions; and he would beg the • of the 10th of March last, relative to the Civil List, House to consider what a disappoitittnent it caused presented to the House by the Chancellor of the Lx- to many to have themselves and their families ex , cho g oil, by the command of his Royal Ilighness the eluded from Court, except on rare occasions, on ac - Prince Regent : arid that such Committee should count of their political sentiments. He begged to have power to sen d for persons, papers, and records. pay a word or two as to the fete in_the Park in object, would be t to form au estimate that could bration of the peace. It had been triumphantly be relied nn.—[!fear, hearrj stated lost Session, that 15,0001. would covet the • The Cli A NCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER, whole of the expence. Nothing could he more false that if the Right Hon. Gentleman had confined than this estimate, for it now turned out that the 1 iieself to the first part of his motion, it would expence was .10,0001. But What he most objected to hale been in anticipation of what he intended was, the pernicious 'effects -with - whick it iris &at. tended. He trusted he should never live to see such another scene of viCestid dissipation arise to`the in finite annoyance of all the middle classes of society in the metropolis. The whole proceeding had in flicted a serious calamity on the morals of the peo ple. He must also notice the immense increase of Sir 111. Wellesley's expenditure, as Ambassador at Ma drid. In 1814 it was 18,0001. and had this year risen to 37,0001. _ _ _ Mr. ROSE agreed that a sufficient case had been made out to justify enquiry, but contended that the Committee ought not to be armed with greater powers than those possessed by former Committees. Sir W. CONGREVE acknowledged that The works in the park had exceeded the estimates ; but he would be bound to prove that they did not ex ceed them by more than 3,0001. One measure of the excess was, that though the erections were sold, they did not bring one-third of their original cost, as was • usual with such materials, but enly about one-fifth. A deduction was also to be made for the bridge over the canal, in the Park, which it was thought proper to retain. As to the principle of the fete, it had only. '' [ been following former precedents, and surely no occasion of the.conclusion of a peace had offered of a superior kind. With regard to the immorality• complainelof, he was afraid there might have been a little excess of that sort, where such multitudes of people were drawn together. Lord MILTON contended that the appointment of a Committee, without the power of sending for per sons, papers, and records, would be a mere dead letter. The House would, in that case, pretend to do what it actually did not do. The Committee ought not only to have the vouchers before them, but see that the different expenditures were conduct-' et) on a principle of economy. Mr. lIUSKISSON argued, that the appointment of a Committee with the powers proposed was con trary to all former precedent, and derogatory to the decorum with which the Crown should be Witted.— ' One reason assigned for the motion by an Honour. able Gentleman was, 'hat there were not two levees and one draWhig-room every week. Was the Com ' triltee, then, to send for persons to examine why this had not been the case? Was the Iluuse to un derstand from that Honourable Gentleman, that the Sovereign of this country and his family could not enjoy any of the common advatit'i ges of retirement ? No Sovereign that he ever heard of was supposed to be placed in such a situation that he must be always before the public eye. Were the personages of the Royal Family to be held up as Indian Pagods, whose temples were always open to the multitude.—[A lough.]—An observation had been made on 50001. . expended on hot-houses at Kensington-gardens : hut he would ask, was the Crown to be debarred from expenses of this kind, in which every private - gentle- - man might indulge ? He then proceeded to defend the conduct of Mr. Canning in accepting the embassy to Lishou. The principle on which his salary was regulated was, that it included the whole of the ex traordinary expenses attendant on the mission. lie crushd slate, that the person left at Lisbon as Charge d'Affaires by Sir C. Stuart, was allowed. 50001. a ' year for his necessary expenses, though not obliged to keep up any representation. One reason why the mission to Lisbon had been raised to the dignity of an Embassy was, because there had long been a Por- . tuguese Ambassador in this country. There was also et the time a probability of the Prin - ce Regent of Portugal returning to his European dominions, which had been preserved by the exertions of this country. Certain it was, that the Sovereign of Por tugal did state his 'intention of returning from the and actually requested that a British squa dron might he sent out for his conveyance, naming at the same time the British officer whom he wished •tobe at the head of it. Advicel, he believed, had • t'e .ti received in this country, that the Prince Regent la I altered his intentions, and did not mean to re- turn to Europe immediately ; and he knew that as • to•in as his Right Honourable Friend, now at Lis- • bon, was aware of this, he would tender his resig nation of the Are he held.—[Hear, hear ! and a . lamgh.j—.When the combination of circumstances ;which induced him to accept of the office ceased, he (Mr. Iluskiistin) should be much suprised if his Right Honourable Friend did not resign it. As to the salary, fifty years hack, the expence of the Lis bon mission was was 52001. a year, and at the pre sent rate of exchange it would require 80001. to cover that sum. The greater part of the additional charge on the Civil List had arisen from the extraor dinary expellees of last year, and after all the priva. tions and sufferings of twenty years' war, it seemed quite reasonable that the people should have an op portunity of expressing their exultation at the glo. rious termination of the war. He contended it would be most indecorous were the Committee to extend its investigation into the private expenditure of the Royal Mr. H. MARTIN supported the original motion. He thought it was paying a bad compliment to the Prince and the Royal Family, to suppose they could wish to screen their expenditure from enquiry. Mr. C. LONG opposed the appointment of a Committee armed with such ample Dowers, as incon sistent with the respect due to the Sovereign. Much had been said of the expenses of our Ambassadors ; but from all he hail heard and seen, he was satisfied that the ! A'mbassad'ors of none of the other great Powers wet.' inadequately paid as the British. • Mr. CALCRAFT said, that though, since the settlement of the Civil List, five different Committees had been appointed to examine into the excess of its expenditure, yet the inadequacy of their powers had been the occasion why that excess - had not been kept down, but'lfad gone on increasing to its present ex.' orbitant amount. The settlement of the Civil List was a sort of compact between the Crown and the People; and in the times in which we lived, it was essential to the popularity of the Crown, that its expenditure should be controlled and kept within due bounds. Lord CASTLEREAGH contended, that the ne cessity of appointing a Committee with such poweri had not been made out. It was quite unprecedented to approach the Crown hi such an inquisitorial man ner. The HMI. Gentleman who spoke last hod ar gued as to the settlement of the Civil List unfairly. The acteinsinte of that income on the part of the Crown was accompanied with a surfender for the benefit of thepeople, of an estate which the Crown had held from time .irearemorial; ao estate, also, which formed an improveeble revenue, and w lack ii it had still held, it would not have been cols/pawl to resort to Parliament for pecuniary aid. A i 1 1 , 41 , as the depredation of money was geiag no, and tinned in the world, it eas impossible to say ro ac t t i l bargain made when the Civil List was settled m be tixed and binding. The eteper relict. of every Go u „, demi* in his priva , e expenditure must Cnnvisice him of the reasonableness of this. 'lle•rompact ste,..td be kept in its spirit, but it was impossible'io prevertt that excess which was oc.eteloned by the depreciwi o ., of money. From the eurreaseA expenditure of eis Civil List, there should not only be deducted ih o regular progression of all expenditure, but also N o , particular expenditure required by the present rh cumstances. The princi l t i i e al n itic s re w as i: e:s , i n n d t h lie e partment of the Lord Chamberlain, and in his ea , 1 department. As for the department that h e „„ placed dt the head of, scar sure that all connected with it were most anxious, that the most minute and detailed account should be laid before the Committee. It eas evident ( how. ever, that the expeirce must be considerably greate r , when we have Ambassadors in almost every Court of Europe, than when we had but two or :hree for e i g ,, Ministers. With respect to the increase of the last year, the greater part of it was not of apelivitiott nature, but had grown out of the circumstance of the visit of the Allied . Snaereigns to this country. Th e whole of this expence was calculated at 'L'l.),oool._ If he could have brbught from Vienna the estimate of the expellee occasioned by a similar circum. stance, he believed that it would be found that the Civil List of the Emperor of Austria had been bur. thened to a much greater amount. As to our Mi. nisters abroad, he did not believe that they lived in greater splendour, or even as great as the Ministers of other Powers that ranked in the same scale. As to the expences of Lord Aberdeen, which were stated at 15,0001. ; it must' be recollected, in the first place, that. the exchange being then thirty per cent. against.this•country, this sum was thereby di minished to about 11,0001. Again, when this sum was set down to the expences of Lord Aberdeen, it must be observed that it also included the expences of all those attached to his embassy. As he was never stationary, but always moving about with the armies, this expence, in the course of a year could not be considered as too great. 'With respect to the Em. bassy to Lisbon, it was to be recollected that the ex. pence of an inferior Minister, who preceded him, was double that of the estimated expence of .Mr. Canning's embassy. An Ambassador from Portugal had been in this country for two or three years. It was, therefore, thought right, and a proper mark of respect to an Allied Sovereign, that an Ambas• sailor of equal, rank should be ready to meet the Prince Regent of Portugil, on his arrival in that country, which was then immediately expected. ft never could have been au object• to the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) to uccept that embassi, if domestic circumstances (the sickness of his sin) had norinade him desirous of going to Lisbon. Pat when this was the case, it was natural for Govern meet to %sish to take the advantage of the einem. stance, and propose to him an embassy, wl 10, under eircutnstatices, he would 'probably not have ac cepted. As to the expences of the Embassy at the C our t of Madrid, about which so mach had Seta said, the whole details of the expenditure wore at the Foreign °dice, and ready to be produced.— When those details were, however, examined, it did not appear, that (exclusive of balls and fetes) the personal expellees of the Ambassador exceeded 14,0001. This sum, however, 'would he somewhat reduced in future, and a fixed rate established for the expence of our Embassy.at Madrid. Mr. WHIVIREAD conceived, that if his Hoe. Friend had not made out a case fully sufEecent, there could be no hopes of any good from any Committee. There was not an argument used by the Noble Lord, that would not apply with equal force against the appointment of any Committee. The House were told that the Committee might, If they thought pro. per, instruct their Chnirmne to move the House for any Papers they might think necessary. What a childish hope was this to hold out to the House of Commons ? When the Chancellor of the 'Exche quer had appointed his Committee, they were to have powers to ask, if they thought proper, for the production ofiliose Papers. Who could doubt that there would be no want of delicate guardians of the Crown in this Committee? The accounts that the Committee were to receive of the expenditure of the Crown must be purely spontaneous on the part of the Crown. The Noble Lord had, throughout the course of his speech, talked of the Crown as if it was the only party. He bad mentioned that the Crown had formerly nn hereditary revenue ; but as for Parliament, the Noble Lord appeared to con ceive its functions quite inconvenient, unless when they passed. complimentary addresses to the Prince Regent for the wisdom of his Ministers, or unless they were voting the sem of money necessary for the wars which his Lordship meditated. - As to this hereditary revenue, the Noble Lord appeared to go Sack with pleasure to the glorious times (as he conceived them) which preceded the Revolution. iii those times, however, the Sovereigns out of this hereditary re venue defrayed a great part of the expellees of the State. The Noble Lord might also go back to the glorious times of Charles the 2d, when not only the expenditure of the hereditary revenue was slot en quired into, trot when the (version that that Sovereign received from France was not enquired into. Ma since the Revolution, when was it that Parliament ; did not enquire into the expenditure of the Crow'. The Noble Lord had only talked about Sovereigns -- about the Prince Regent, and the Emperor of Ansuia Ile had appeared, however, to have entirely fergartem who it was that supplied the expenditure of the civic List, both to the Prince Regent, arid to the Emperor of Austria. It was the people who paid those o'.l l Lists, and this was a circumstance which the Noire Lord appeared to have entirely forgotten. As to " 1 ": proposi; ion that the expencee as alway s found tower I the estimate, lie must ..bserve, that much to the h!e• floe eof the Lord Steuart!, the expence itt his dens''' meta did not exceed the estimate. Tile expearte in the Pork, %%Lich were estimated at 18,000;.. fact amount to 40,0001. A more shamesul syloa.'• the public Money, or a greater disgrace to this 0 : 11 try,he had seldom wittiessed,than the scene ohiit. nessend riot which prevailed in the parks for a ' , ''"t" baud I .llml which had cost the native '40,0001. 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