The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-06-05 00:00:00

~- instance, the knowledge of the hand -writing of the person signing it was known but to very few. Mr. MILLS said that the Hon. Gentlemen who just spoke left out of consideration the difference of the sum in the two cases. Mr. ELLICE regretted that bis Hon. Friend who in • ttoduced thismeasure, should have abandoned his pr in. ciple in any iftstenee. Me Would recommend that no exception should be ands, exteptio the tale of the forgery of wills. The Petition was lai d on the table,and ordered to be printed. WOOL TRADE. Mr. T. WILSON presented a Petition from certain Merchants of the City of London against that clause of the Bill before the House which they apprehended would allow the exportation of the long woolled sheep from this country. Mr. LUSHINOTON said that he was sure, on con sideration, the Petitioners would find they took an erroneous view of the effects of this Bill. Mr. H. DAVIS said that there were sotpe wools that could only be obtained in England, such as the long wool, and therefore great caution should be used in allowing the exportation of sheep. Mr. LUSHINOTQN said that the Bill would be col.fined to South Down sheep. Sir 1. COFFIN trusted that a principle of greater liberality on this subject would animate the House in future.—taid on the table. Mr. tl. DAVIS presented a Petition from the Bank ers of Bristol against the punishment of Forgery Mitigation Bill.—Laid on the table. POOR LAWS' BILL Lord WALPOLB laid on the table a Petition from Lynn against the Poor Laws' Amendment Bill.—Laid on the table. Mr. LENNARD presented a Petition from twenty four Paupers of the town of Ipswich against the Poor I..,us' Amendment Bill. They entered into a detailed statement of the misses of their distress, attributing them generally to the berthened state of the country. 'lhe Hon. Member added some observations in support of the prayer of the Petition, and enlarged upon the nature and causes of the distress of the Poor of this country. Sir 1. COFFIN ridiculed the notion that the lower orders of this country were as badly off as the Hon. Gentleman would represent them to be. He was per suaded that any one who bad experience of the lower orders of other countries would concur with him that there was no kingdom in which they were so happy.— Laid on the table. Lord A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from the county of Lanark, praying that the House would take into its most serious consideration a plan proposed by Mr. Owen, for giving permanent power of production to the Lower Classes. The Petition was signed by 41 landholders, including one Peer, the son of a Peer, 5 Baronets, 37 Justices of the Peace, the majority of the Clergy, the Principal and five Professors of the I;ni vetsity of Glasgow, and the chief Magistrates of all the towns in the county. Mr. MAXWELL, in support of the Petition, exhort ed the House to take the subject of it into their serious consideration. The House, he said, ought, in justice to its own character, to entertain any proposition which had for its object the alleviation of the distresses of the people. Sir W. DB CRESPIONY said, that as the indivi dual who brought Mr. Owen's plan under the at.• n lion of the House, he felt it his duty to say, that his o!)ject was to have something done for the poor. As to the Poor Laws, they were so bad a system, that any attempt to amend them, he feared, would only have the effect of rendering them more objectionable. Mr. J. SMITH said, that though he was nut pre pared to give his approbation to Mr. Owen's plan, he would still strongly recommend the proposal to the at. tendon of the llonse. Mr. Owen had, some way or another, surrounded himself with a population of two thousand persons, the most moral, the most religious and happy he bad ever seen. Now, he would submit to the House, was not a plan which could produce such effects, worthy of being considered by it ? As to the religions behaviour of this body of men, he re ferred to the certificate of six Scotch Ministers, testi fying to the morality and religious education of Mr. Owen's establishment. Ile thought that, as long as the House abstained from entertaining some general plan of this nature for influencing the minds of the people, and confine themselves to measures of amend ment merely, they were beginning at the wrong end. Mr. W. SMITH pressed upon the House the neces sity of their entertaining, in the most serious manner, the Petition of Mr. Owen. The Petition was read, and ordefed to be printed. Mr. BLACKBURNE presented a Petition from the Churchwarden and Overseers of Manchester, against the Poor Laws' .Amendment Bill.—Laid on the table. And another Petition from the Boroughreeve, Mer chants, ire. of Manchester, against the Spoiled Stamps Duties Bill. Mr. HUME asked, if it was the intention of Minis. ter 4 to prosecute the Bill ? Mr. LUSHINUTON said that it was a dropped or der the other day, and it was not intended to renew it this Session. Mr. BLACKBURNE presented a Petition from the Merchants of Manchester, against any alteration of the duties on the importation of East India sugar.—Laid on the table. Mr. BERNAL presented a Petition from Mr. Mal limn, praying the attentien of the House to his Life- if England, with an accoent of the goods tutored, for a certain term.—Ordared. Mr. H 1; ME moved for a return of the names of the persons employed in the collection of the revenue of Scotland, and the amount of their salaries for the years, &c. 1805 to 1820. Lord STANLEY presented a Petition from the Churchwardens, Overseers, &c. of Great Bolton, in the county of Leicester against the Podr Laws' Amendment Bill ; and another from certain Merchants, Mender turers, &c. of Manchester, praying for a repeal of the probate duties in cases of Legacy.—Laid on the table cer . A petition was laid o n the table, praying that tain dealers might be subjected to the Hawkers and Pedlars' Tax. Mr. J. SMITH moved the third reading of the Bankrupts' Laws Amendment Bill. After a few words from Mr. C. Smt•rn and Mr. AREICHOMBIE, the Bill was read a third time and passed. OPERATION OF THE ALIEN LAWS. Mr. HUME wished to have it stated whether or not a native of the lonian Islands, coming to this country, could be arrested and sent away under the Alien Act, or was be entitled to he protected as a British subject ? The Marquess of LONDONDERRY was not rte. pared to give a full answer to the Hon. Gentleman, as no cause bad arisen in which the point came into die cnssion. He believed that a native of the lonian Islands was not to be regarded as a British subject, in asmuch as we were merely in the relation of a pro tecting power to the inhabitants of those islands. Mr. HUME said that it was of consequence that the point should be settled without delay, as he under stood there were several of the inhabitants of the lonian Islands prepared to come to this country to claim jus tice, and they were naturally anxious to ascertain if they would be liable to be seat away under the Alien Act. The Marquess of LON DONDER RY.—Whatever be the state of the law, the lion. Gentleman may rest as sayed that it shall not he enforced to the prejudice of individuals arrived her e on such a mission. — ( llear.) Sir R. WILSON was anxious to know if any direc tions had been given against the infliction of torture in the Dutch Colonies, and which was permitted by the Dutch laws? Mr. GOULBURN E said be was not able to answer the question at that moment. To-morrow he would give the lion. Gentleman full information. USURY LAWS Sir .1. MACKINTOSH moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Usury Laws Repeal Bill, for the purpose of po st p onin g it to (we undetstood) .1 . it• f , • 1 lit ed ~,__,t .. tiro SOCSOWsillitY 41TC o lle sr *Ora wren ai ipt Ulmer Adel, puslidemmit. a i k not approve oi . IiART DAVII I distinction • and woken' forged, sad he the capital 'oil . T. WILSON 1 tito,loost unfortunate for IMnging forever(' ;steed Mover had cbtities, but the sae (iner Sills and Bast Mr. OARBORD 1 sk a m atter of expo eio chance of terryi her at some length by referring to the sally an d other Ad sisal law. MT. MARTIN Sill, on the grouts the forsing or w in bath was worth/ I shill wet% not Mem quest in !reloadre t Straagers we Nowa dhided, wl For the third re al.y.Oeneral's Ant the. Bill, 6. Sir J. MACKI but Amendments, Mr. CRIMPS 1 the Benefit of thi upon Mt.DARING the Rill altagetl non. Member. Or. LUSHINI Banker of his a rather than pro The adoption of as liable to elep Mr. MIFFS After a few w divided, when tl Fur the Am,' Oa our &dm Rsonanast on I Sill met with that it would he lature with bee Ott the quest was spin clea After a lot Fog the House died r 1 It was cons, Mr. CliFal a Cotuniittee a baring oppose this day 6 mot Mr. COI'le: Ti e s ATTO sot ippon go The Amend Rion, and the !Revere! verbal House resume (waved ore We - On the ord gable Rivers olfaction be ji visions of tier was a greed to The House clause had be the Report w Mr. HUM eeiving the I bringing up of the hour. The CUP to postpone The trial MARTIN, WI The othe irned at swiss Mornia PRICE 0/ gam Mod .11 pet Cent. pCoot OW Cwt roper Ct. N Alper Cast Los( Awl law SW Mob 6 pa S. ilia so •••..................• IIIiMiIM=MIIIMM • Piet: receiver third of Alines of May • term • ills eW re-ests WWI DI Ugh he r Poor this s wilds her sit I are. *be 1 . slew Istia tep l i lbw NW the ~_ ! I~ , I • • preserver. Mr. WARRS bore testimony to the inefficiency of the present means of preserving lives near sea-ct nets, and was satisfied that any plan, having fur its object the improvement of those means, deserved the serious attention of the Hots*. . Mr. LUSHINOTON was not prepared to say that the plan of Mr. Mattison might not be found useful, particularly on the aorthera coast of Ireland. Mr. W. SMITH wished that the Petition should be referred to a Committee. Sir I. COFFIN said, that if Mr. Mailisen's life pmervers were reseal, why were they not seed by Ate Deal beatings ? He would be satisfied, so long as they were kept oat of saes of war, for if ones a ship was in danger sear a lee shore, with those fife-pm servers it wadi be impossible to keep a inaa en beard. lIRTUILNS. Cot. DAVIES sieved ler resins of the ainesst of goods Naiad es mamas of messes, In arida ports Wednesday next. CSINIINAT , TAWS. Sir J. MACKIN CIISII said that in moving the third reading of the Bills which he had introduced into the House, he should offer a few observations relative to the alterations he hail been induced to make. Ile felt bound to explain the present condition of the Bill— the principles upon which it now stood—the nature of the objections urged againstit—the concessions which h e had a lready m ade to SWIM of those objections---and the reasons why he was determioed that no further concessions should he granted. Ile took it that by the second reading of the Bill being carried by so re spectable a majority, the House had done that declaring the expediency of abating the punishment now indicted by law for private forgery. And that must be taken as an expression of its opinion, that in some cases the severity of that punishment created impunity for crime, and that its abatement, instead of giving im punity, would tend to lessen that crime by giving faci lity to its prosecution. This fact was no longer upon theory, lout it was fully illustrated in practice. The commutation of capital punishments bad been resorted to in the cases of fraudulent bankruptcies, and of fe lonies committed on bleaching grounds. From the effect of the former, no argument could at present be drawn, as it bail only been acted upon for one year, and could not have yet developed its full operation. In the latter instance they bad the evidence of the Proprietors of the Bleaching Yards themselves in fa vour of the repeal of the old laws, as they considered it to be the weans of affording protection to their pro perty. The repeal of the two laws he had mentioned were the most recent instances in which the principles of the present Bills had been adopted in Parliament. Small as the progress bad hitherto been in repealing the most barbarous and cruel laws in our system,' it was a gratifying reflection to those who were', anxious to instil a larger portion of humanity, accom panied with a wholesome punishment, into our cri minal code, to know that that progress had commenced with the sway of tieorge the Fourth. More had been accomplished towards attaining that desirable object in the first year of the present reign, than is any since the reign of Edward the First. This was a most auspicious omen ; and he trusted that it would. lead to consequences which aftef age* would view as shedding a brighter lustre. and a more lasting honour upon the name of the Sovereign than other things which were held in more estimation by . some eyes at the present period. The Honourable and Learned Member then contended that the receptions which he bad been induced to make from the application of the Bill ought not to turn against the principle upon which it was founded. It must not be said that he distrusted his principle because he could not grasp all which he desired, but it ought rather to be taken as confidence in his principle, because it proved his willingness to try its merits by experi ment before its application was made general. He had no doubt but it would speedily work out all ex ceptions. At the same time lie could not say that be did not regret the necessity of making the excep tions; being fully persuaded that the universal application of his principle might be now adopted with perfect safety. He was happy enough to in troduce it upon a limited scale, by its application to forgery alone, because he was convinced that it would soon be seen bow much It was capable of effecting if applied generally. The first exception he agreed to make was for the forgery of Bank of England paper, because it was an injury to the community, and one to which no private forger could bear the least resemblance.—(Hear, bear.) — The one affected the poor. the ignorant, and the neg ligent, whilst the other affected only uses of opulence, and who were almost professionally trained to investi pte and detect frauds of such a MUM. The next exception was with regard to country Banknotes. He had than &depilated the paper which was the cir- culatiag currency of the country, from private nega (liable money papers. He was obliged to draw this line, and to the exception to go on further, or to submit to some arbitrary distinction founded upon mere will and pleasure, and consequently wholly un fit to be acted upon in legislating upon such a ques tion as that which they were now upon. He contend ed that the petition which had just been presented from the Bankers of the city of London and West minster was not, in point of fact a petition against the Bill. It only deprecated the exception which placed private Banker's papers upon a different footing in the eye of the law, with the notes of the Bank of England. It was not therefore against the principle of the Bill, but against the exception, the Petitioners prayed that there might be no difference in the punishment for public and for private forgery. By one short Bill he could remove their objections altogether, namely, the abolishment of the punishment of death. The supposition of the country Bankers was. that those who carried on the nefarious practice of forging Bank of England Notes as a trade, would be induced to forge upon them if the punishment of death remained for the one, while it was repealed for the other. But for private forgeries there could be no apprehensions of such a nature. The miserable Birmingham ruffian shut up at his detestable work, could not be supposed to be acquainted with the hand-writing of eminent London Bankers. But, however, supposing that he did, that knowledge would not be enough, because lie must know the habits and connections of the usual acceptors and indorsers of documents. Besides, even if lie succeed ed in the forgery,how was be to present it for payment ? How could it be expected that this Birmingham ruf fian could get any one to present and pass an acceptance for three or four thousand pounds, in spite of the vigi lance of those whose regular business it was to detect fraud and irregularity? And if not, was the House to be called on to protect them wilt the gallows, and to award the punishment of death to others for their negligence ?—(llear, hear, hear.) The operations of the established forgers might have been carried into the territories of the country Banker, but they could not touch upon the ground of mercantile negociations. The other exceptions were for the forgery of Wills and Marriage Certificates, and Registers. He had ex cepted these, because the House of Lords, in a Bill which passed this House last Session, thought fit to reject the clauses which appeared to them. He next came to the application of the Bill to the crime of Ut tering ; and here he was resolutely determined to make no concessions. The number of criminals exe cuted for this crime (as appeared by the returns in the last seven years) was upon an average, 14 in each year. The numbers charged were seven hundred and fifty-four, and the amount of convictions three hun dred awl ninety-three. With respect to the punish ment, he should propose to take away trans portation altogether, and to substitute for itten years' confinement with hard labour. He thought this pu nishment might easily be made sufficiently terrible by increasing the labour and confinement, and even by enforcing abstinence. Transportation had been proved to be inefficacious, and it must be relinquished. Be fore sitting down he would just observe, that it was his intention to add a few words to the preamble of the Bill, which were of no moment, and to strike out the clause for giving rewards to informers. These would' be all the amendments be should have to propose. — (Hear.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that the con cessions which his Hon. and Learned Friend had been induced to make, considerably increased the objections which he had previously held to the Bill before that House. Those concessions formed an acknowledgment that the punishment of death was necessary to prevent crime in certain cases.—(No, no.) —It appeared to him to be an admission that such a punishment was neces sary far the protection of a certain description of pro- perty. lie could not see upon what grounds the ex ceptions rested, so as to prevent their striking at the very principle of the Bill. Fur instance, an exception was made for transfers of Bank Stock. Now, why were transfers of South Sea and India Stock not to be placed upon the same footing ? Again, with regard to the exceptions for Powers of Attorney for the sale of Stuck. IVliv was nit the exception to be extended to the same documents for the receipt of dividends ? His Hon. and Learned Friend, instead of bringing in a Bill for the commutation of capital punishment in cases of forgery as a principal, ought to have called the pre sent a measure fur removing that punishment from cer tain cases in which lie thought it was too severe.— (Ilear.)-11e hail gone on admitting exception upon exception until the principle with which be set out was entirely lost. fie contended that previous to the use of the I/. motes, the punishment of death was, and it is now effectual in preventing private forgeries ; and his Hon. and Learned Friend had adduced no fact whatever to prove that it was not so. The lion, and Learned Gentleman then alluded to the repeal of the Bleaching and Bankrupt Laws, and argued that there was as much ground for assuming that it had caused an increase of crime, as that the prosecutions were not carried on before, on acconnt o the severity of the punishment. It was impossible but that the severity of the criminal laws must appear great iu souse cases, be cause it was impossible to place them upon a graduated scale. In cases of burglary, if a man broke into a house in the dead (lithe night, and proceeded to offer violence to its iuliabitants, and to carry away their property, no one could say or feel that he did not deserve the highest punishment which the law could inflict. Yet if a boy was passing a house in the evening, and was tempted to break a window and take out a watch, that crime would be the same in the eye of the law; but who could regard it with the same feelings ? Yet there could be no scale of punishment provided by the law ; but at the same time the degree of punishment could be proportion to the crime by the a dministrators of the law. If the capital punishment was provided' for in such a case, it was well known that it would not be acted upon, and that knowledge would at least, have the effect of restraining criminals in the degree i t of atrocity with which their crimes were accompanied ; and he did not apprehend that it could for a moment be', supported. that a man would rather commit a bnrglary with the chance of death annexed to the cm-tante of imprisonment, than if the latter punishment were the greatestet b b e o m issory e s tae manner ought to which h t n ed d have t . ht time He e exce p tion s e was c same e n o p protection conce ived he t ra tt o tha t b oi ese ß en a t as on tt r i to s e r ' . His Hoa. and Learned Friend had made use of one at gamest fuoaded apes a calculation so follacioas, that be was really surprised to hear it fall from one of his p ew . erfnl understanding. lie stated that, because only kir teen each year, upon an average , were executed is: forgery, there would only be that number to pla ce i s confinement and hard labour. Now the fact wu, ti nt if his lion. and Learned Friend's Bill were carried ism effect, all the persons connected must be consigned to that punishment '. And these, instead of amoumin t to fourteen annually, would be not less than one Isei. dretl end eighty. When they even heard complaias i of the Penitentiary, Ise knew not bow they we re i s a condition to erect Fiestas and establishments all ov er the country to carry this plan into effect. Upee the grounds which he had enumerated, he should opt the Bill, and be therefore moved as an ame n d ment, that it he read a thirst time that day six months. Mr. DENMAN said, that the acute and ingenious arguments of his Hon. and Learned Friend the Au er . ney-General, bad failed to remove the compi a i ns which he firtuly entertained of the benefits to t ie derived from the adoption of the Bill before the House. lie contended that it was unfair to say that the supporters of the Bill abandoned its prig. ciple, because they were compelled by necessity is snake souse concessions, in order to serve the ge m . ral measure. His lion. and Learned Friend (the At. tornertieneral) had contended that the spirit of Me English Laws was to affix the highest possible punishment to crime. He snug protest against this doctrine as an imputation upon the Common Law of England ulsich it did not deserve.—(Hear.) — The two cases of burglary which his lionourahk and Learned Friend bad supposed, were not in psiat of fact the same in the eye of the law, and their being classed under the same name was one of that technical absurdities which remained the disgract of our Criminal Code, and which had grown up upon the old law of the land without possessing any thing of its spirit.—(Hear, hear.)—lie also stated that the certainty of impesonment was pro. sided by the existing law. This he (Mr. Denman) snug deny. If it slid so, the Bill of his Homer able and Learned Friend would be unnecessary; be cause it went to secure that certainty. At present it could not he certain, for the severity of the ca pital punt Irtient prevented many person from pus scenting at all. The Bill was not founded apua, or supported by speculative theories or any wild ao• firms, hut upon the principle of practical men, whose evidence had been given before the Con. mittee. But without that, he should have bete csa toenn t a e d f o w r i m t with the former n i tr a i d a d r f e r s o s t : h a i n c h H t o h n e o u l i l a o b u i s e e l i t , ad r wa ked ., his (Mr. F. Buxton), whose experience, and what'll. usirable talents so well qualified him to judge"' the expediency of such a measure. Never had is listened to a speech in that House or in any edit place which contained more of benevolence se I 1 true practical wisdom; never was the spirit sl Christianity displayed before any public useably in the world , with su much of its pure and midis character. It was not brought forward to prawn 'discord amongst parties—it was not brought fermi to serve politicul views—it was not brought henna for the purpose of puffing its own PhaFtedmi parity. His Honourable Friend proceeded epee the tree ground of exkoting them to do justice, totem limey, and to walk humbly with the cowata lathe ei Mankind.--(ebeers.)--It was with the alma si tei s e f l a i n c t g i . s n up ln, n e took time opportunitystphlidiesnd Address o f w e b s i p ch ma t i . ag u o ts f. Friend delivered to the House.—(Cheering.) Mr. DENT objected to some of the details of is Bill. Mr. Molar expressed his intention to sewn the Bill as it at present stood. If that anomaly is regard to the notes of the Bank of England sod of Country Banks had not been removed, he sMsM certainly have opposed it. He was aware that tbs present measure was not without its practical di& rubies, but he was content to adopt the principle, is the hope that these difficulties would not °aweigh* proposed advantages. Mr. MARRYATI said, lie feared the p el e ssi meas ure was subversive of a ll le g al rule, and a principle. He could see no reason for rohbili Bank forgeries with death, and leaving all dier OUP geries to comparative impunity. Ile understood reason fur severe punishment to he most WOO( ill cases where the offence could be committed witit facility; and this reasonin g applied to the kg against forgery, fully j us tified the severity Id Its present punishment. He thought also that the Is' alarms exceptions in the Bill went a considerA length towards destroying its effect. Mr. CRI PPS said, lie approved of the pries'?" bt the Bill, and should vot e fur the thirst reading; should mo ve to except forgeries of B a nkers' 60 from its operation, in consequence of the facility red which these forgeries were committed. • Mr. MANSFIELD opposed the Bill, as lie those perfectly uncalled for , an d the moment chosen Wits.* troductiun very untimely. lit. JOHN SMITH believes% that the a ait/ punishment was one g reat cause of the Wawa crime, as severity of punishment discouraged Pr m igt tors. He thought the forgerie s u p on the Hanka gst land would be considerably lessened if that Eetalpfish ment would increase the difficultv of f o rging The Country Bank notes were executed in a much beto ma nner, and the number rgeries on Country Bob was in consequence materially lessened. lieshuoldoi" dially vote for the Bill. Mt Mr. PEARSE defend ed the comities of the limal.* , his observations were made in a very low tune uf v•iti The Bank, he said, had slicers acted leniently tools* those who forged upon its establishment, except is of a second offence. He feared the g eneral the Bill was highly dangerons. Mr. MILLS opposed the Bill. Mr. LOCKHART thought there was considershis con sistency io the Bill. He could not admit theisem of the distinction which had been taken hewers i!sr rice upon thTehlelafoorkrorfiesEngurlanniltharnitil, made a regular systematic trade. Mr. BARINO said, all that was riesiral by tire . plot Bill was % the esactment of that mitigated po PearseP r ju outmost of an Housouralile Director k r.. pintritvlasetelicaabi7ofirlkilielettinigiseinßaeansie"sa:giatin:Pet a1:7177 5... ttlehrobsear uftmetspneWas forgeries eesessitted In England exceeded,. e was the came of forgery wished . watt (D -bueolrieinvedaotlh4selandofthaellloatttry pi . tr L.011:11100:11.111 - • s