The National Register. — London, England, 1820-10-23 00:00:00

When he came down he had a bollard of golden Napoleons— double Napoleons. There were. he said, an ; and they appeared as many. I toe in 83 double Napoleamh Zangla told 'The Areo Al. •:31.1, tie • 10.1 a C 111 - .1 not retrave the coaahsation eivean Z :tight and ths wows. aa evideace. Zaight not having beta pro: ^.l to be an agent. Mr. WILLA/at.) ceuentied in levaar of the aptestion. and stated toot he could prove that the witneas had Urea told by Z male, that he should receive as much if he would make it & pos i t ion ag nioet the Q.a.:en. It tleCoSary to prom el seep by step. us it w ould be inipms:hle to prove t w o by auy other means. Mr. T x DALE followed on the sane side. After some ohs ovations by thelawdethencellnr,Lords Ershine, Redealale, and Grey. Mr. 13roughatu rose to speak, but it being four ti cattle, le ll.eise adjourned. FIFTEENTII DAY OF TIIE DEFENCE. THURSDAY. OCT. 19. The Douse resumed proceedings at ten o'clock this morning. Counsel being code I Tile LORD CIIANCELLOR said. that he had it in com mand from the tlou.e to inform Clean, that Cie question on iv' de the debate aro.e yesterday coald no be pat in the present stage uf the proceedings. alr. lino human said, that there was another qttestion, on which lie wishal to have their Lordships opinion, whether it should be put or not. Ile under-toad their Lorelsoips to have decided that he could not as.: the wi:ne-s aleoni to tell what Zangla told al eon butt teen said to him (Zangla) by Col. Jiro an —in short. that Zangla hintscif mu a he ca.led to prove the decla ration of Brown ,o Lail GREY was of opinion that her Nlnjesty's Counsel hail aright to titiroie the c +arse in which they !eel jeto been inter rupee I ; it was perfectly onisonant with the opimoo given by the au:le ' es. LordEOSKINE said, that the Jolla; in stating that there must be some inn ittlactioo of the elelatee of con ipirecy, did not certainly allude to the orig , nal opening. Such a defeace mig it not be known at first ; it might art.e out of the proccednies, or out of any circumaancescoiltiag newly to the knowledge of the party. And he would appeal to the oarataar of the Noble Earl opposite, whether upon such a case newly arising, it would be right or fair to oppose Counsel i.t openine what tots new case was? Lord DARNLEY said, the dillicultics thrown in the way of her Majesty, must have rendered it impossible for her Comae! to isicertain, tit the period of teeming the case, circhinstances which might arise is the course of ,he investigation, and that Hell: be calculate . ] to est:di:tat the crimes that hat mia..er been in the mo te nplation of those employed in the defence. Ile hoped that seeing the insollizieticy of the evidence in proof of the case. and that so many extraordinary things Ilea arisen to dime discredit upon the charges. their Loolialips would, at no very da ant day. give up the case ithoeether, a. the only expedient by which setistantial justice email be done. The LORD Ci I A NCELLOR said lie hail yesterday expres sed hit reasons for tallatilig from their Lordships upt.n the sea ject of receiving evidence, which their Lordships had thought proper to hear. It was a painful thing for him to be placed in such a situation ; hut be shout , ' never cea.c to declare, that nu slander, no calumny, should prevent hint from coescientiously performing what he conaderal to be his edity--(llcar, hear.) Mr. WI 1.1,1 Ams raid it It id never been inteheed rove the crime of conspiracy by this witness's evidence, against hose who were concerned in the Milan Commi•sion. The oath:Poe lie had called was to erect Zangla, and not Col. Brown, and lie weighed that their Lcrdships now unalerstooa the (potation. and that no reply would be nettle to what bad been stated. A conspiracy might have existed without the knowledge of the alikin Com missioners. The circumstances of their gang over to collect evi deuce, ntighe hay. excited an appetite fir profit in many persons, and without their knowledge the conspiracy might have aria n upon that foundation. It had been insinuated, that Zangla might to be called by those who wished to charge the conspiracy ; but they already charged hint with being a cult. it, urn[ who email 11811 upon hien to criminate himself? he case was now un derstood by their Lordships, lie rthe Learned Counsel) submitted, on every ground, that the question ought to be admitted as evidence. Mr. BROUGHAM followed on the same side. The Counsel for the defence did not seek to give evidence of the declarations of Col. Brown, or the Milan Commission. That was not the present object. Ile had already had something to do wilt the Milan Commissioners, and he, perhaps, might have to do with them again, but not at present. But became they die not now seek to fix the conspiracy on Col. Brown and his coadjutors, was her blajesty's Counsel to be prevented Mon proving tile conspiracy the part of other individuals to impede the evidence toot the de. fence, and to increase the evidence for the Bill?—Whoever he might be. whether Brown or Zangla, of any other pencil who had done this, and he could prove that it had lieen done, the fact ought to be brought home to him. I am proving that Zangla made himself an active agent against the Queen, by what he had done. Ile says to a person he wished to seduce. hi become it witness for the prosecution, " Swear against the Princess of Wales, and you shall have a reward." The our, says. " I can not. I khow nothine idiom her." 6. Oh," cries Zangla, " abut eil e milles that, I will - like you to the gardens where she Walked with Bergatni. to the rooms where she slit with him, and I'll tell the day and the hour when they were really there; so taut you have nothing to tear from exposure. So here, come eliag with me—take these Naha:ism, choose your s; I will prove the Ptincess and Beigaini to have been there, and you have oily to swear that you saw it. that's all."—'hilt, continued the Learned Counsel, I am prepared to prove ; and it would be in , in,tr, it. to some: for a moment that, hearing this, tiny one of your I .... d. slops andel lay his hand on his heart, and declare on his lonainr, that such a proof would not inehe the sleettest ailference la his mind, as to passing that Bill which was to ruin the Qiicen. The T 0 N t: It Al. replied at antic length to the arguments of her Majesty's Counsel. Mr. Williams had argued the question legaliy. but Mr. Ilniaghani had gleam up the legal argument, awl had comendea, shit. witether legal or nut, the evi. device ought to be at:milted. Ile contended, that, eccording to the rules of law and the principles of justice, the evidence could not be admitted. Coin el watt: then ordered to withdraw. zed a long debate took place. b u t being rtrenntotAla opposed by hie. laird Coancellor, it was on his Wel :in decided that the quest on should not be pt t.— Cotimel were then called in, and the eleterniiitatem of the ilouse communicated to them. Tne witness Antonio Aloud was now canal to the liar, and ex amined by al r. Whiatais. You stated yeaetaay, that you went with :aanela from Venice to Milan ?-1 did. lid you Milan with Zangl:t to Venice iee'Ves. !low many duy= were you at Milan )...'l ..,o eays. Vt hat is the distance slum Milan to %%mite 0...0ne hundred and eight, -live miles. laid you pay your own tape:lee . or did any one ray than fir you did out pay even tine lowattedui Fait of a tire; psi the whole. 1 Gut you any business of your own at Milan /...No. lied Zatight any as a stage niashiger or otherwise. None. Did you ne.e do any thing (Ai: 0 en go the Oporto °tient:lle and the Rue (Wadi. Ile went also id look steer a per 00 of the name of liaineni, a sort of .and manager of the the ore. You io!d me yesterday, you stir Zangla cone aown stairs from Col. Brown with a ninithei tit Neter:ems. to las lama ?... Yea, I did. At that time dial he make you any offer ? The Aoorney-General objected to the question. Mr. WILLIABie.-4t r s question as to a Ut. THE NATIONAL RWISTER The SOLICITOS-GENESAL.—And we object to that fact as as not relevant. Mr. Ituothaßarkt.—Am I then to understand that the decision of y.,ar Luc: 4 AM'). is to apply to all kulin evidence that we may have ready to ialdnce of untilar oilrs Laviag been made to suborn and b. the Tito I.olto COANCELLOIL—Mr. Brougham, it would be too daring to give un iins.ver to your question. The 11045, ca, knly kleeale thou ea.!:l que.tion At it art,es. Mr. a ItOUGll,llf. ‘Vt: e:4l tO:lkitr uo o.iler kind, of evidence tli..n can braig r tie ease of eunin.acy nearer to the Milan Coku• inissioa t inn tout which your Lordships arc plea , ,el to reject.— We have out R tstelli to produce, we have not Iteganti to pro duce; we have no means of compelling their appearance. All that we can do we are ready to do. but your Lordships scent to say, that all we can do is of on avail. I unders:and your Lord. ships to be of that opinion, that the calling on Col. Brown, the briti,;ing out of money front him. and spewing that money as a !nib.: received to Lear evidence against her maje,ty, are circum• stances nut sufficient to connect hie bribery with the agents of the Milan Commission. If to, 1 can only say that you cut thus the clue of our case; we can, situated as we are, ltastelli being whinliawn from us, and Rewind beyond our reach, prodt.ce no stronger evidence than we have tendered, teal your Lordships have rejected. If ,itch is the decision your Lorilakips have come to, then we reed not early furtuer the hoc of evidence on which we had ente.ed. I.ORi) CIIANCF.LI.OB.—AII I can say, without taking the sense of toe lloase oat the subject, is, that the question °ie.:Bing other tVit'lttiaTS must be fete eatirely to your own die cretion. imd I a n *ureic c Inner be left to any better discretion. Mr. HttOutellA..ll.—Ttieu we have no former question to put to the wikkess etkai. The AT TOlt N 14.; EXERAL declined any cross examination. By Ln n l ~A k J iy,olk . )ALE.—When yea saw toe Nupo!cons in the haml of Za 'gi:t. weae toey in bags, or in p.kper ?... Ile ha I a 1e0.d.01, silt a nand he It:oil—AA lad you irly coacem ilt t 4 , 2 thea a ,e at l'Ciat,l 1... ti ever. By load ryAtc,;l.l.x.—lso yO4 know wlkedier Zsaugla VMS i ever n the sear Lite Princt....?...1 do not. Ramarigo Sakadore was nom called in, and examined by Mr. D.minan. lam fmm Treviso. I ant Vrofessor of Literature, Teacher, of the Italian mid Latin latiguages, and I reside at Lausanne, in S‘..itzerlind. In Pius I Was at Laasanne, and saw Siseelii. Ile lidd a conversation with me on the subject of the prozess against het Ilighness. Did he make any application to you on the subject. The ATTORNEY GL:NEILAL Obj,CZCA to this question, upon the ground, that the declaration of S.icchi,given by another person, was nut attitissidle tinder such cireatustances, Sacchi not having been proved to be an agent. Mr. HuNataN said, ti, object in asking the quedion was to prove that Saahi Mat assured the witness that his fortune would be made if lie gave evidence against the Queen, and of cout se to shew that the evidence of :;,tectii again tier liayal Ili:gimes' was inadmissible. 'rue agency et Sacciii had been e.t.inlis.ied by the evidence of lie Mont and another witness. lie could prove, that at Lutist Sacchi pelloimeti acts under 01: eUirlillt:,S.o3. Tueir Idirdsiiips would ire guilty of the worst of bluidness, if they a,p,.Ll rude rela,e to open weir eyes to a conspiracy established tor sued base pitrposes. It', thea, Saechi was kno.en to be an unt-inised 1t cat got ug :Moat ant abusing the authority under which lie was aemig, wool their Lordships remise to hear evi dence in proof of such vile eiiqloyinent ?—if it was lawful to inquire inio tile acts of tile Aldan Commission, it was surely competent to their Lordships to I..quire Mar tile conduct oi the agent, of that Commission, in gatherins toe evidence against her Royal Highness. Lord N V. said, that with respect to the question of the cretlibiiity of Sacchi as a witness, it, in his time, a proof had been olfered of the attempt of a person to corrupt witnesses, lie should at mice proceed the woof, and calculate upon the event of the pnccaigauou LLS of the most decisive kind. Lord Gil E f said, that such a connection had been established between the Milan Coiniiiis:ion and SaCcill, tilts it became in dispensably necessary to prove the nature of his employment, and if a ~ion could be planed to th.ve attempted to corrupt oiheus to swear tittsely. what doubt could be entertained of his willingness to swear falsely himself The proof of a corrupt agency upon the part of a winless, destroyed the credilality of that witness. Counsel were then called in. The ATTORNEY GENERAL objected to the admission of evidence which was brought forward to impeach the testimony of &weld, in the way it was now attempted to be done. Air. Baciusima SI said, Satxhi had nothae of the charges against him. Ile came to their Lordships bar as a witness, and all his corrupt acts it) this business was known to him. This took the particular case out of the general rule. And he would ask, who would believe a man who had, in the same cause, proved himself a suborner of perjury ? Mr. xi: rejoined, and argued the case on its legal merits. The LOAD CIIANCELLEIt wished, as in tinnier cases, to consult the opinion of the Judges on the subject, and he proposed that the halos itig questions should be put to them--" Whether, in the administration of justice in the Courts below, when a wit. Hess tot the prosecution had been examined in edel, and had nut been cross-exam wadi as to any declarations he hail made, relating to his procuring witnesses for the proseetit.on, whether the Coua- Set for the tLftmce could bring evidence to prove such declaration, without list calling on the witness to know it he bud ever made such declaration it" Ihe or LI VI:. II POO L thought there was a very easy way of getting rid of all the difficulty, without putting the question to the -lodges, or losing the time of their Lottlshiis. Ttiere was one way la which the question might be rendered admissible, and that was, by calling up Sue,:iii, and re-examining This, he thought, W.. 6 a of proceeding to wined them could be to objection, and CH:refute he submitted to their Lordships that Saceni should be called to the liar. The I .0 It 10 CHANCELLOR enqiiired of the Counsel on both sides, if they had any objection to aucciii being recalled to the bar. Mr. Bantroo.ol.—My Lord, the last time we called for a witness tie was not to be Mond. Tne 1.01(1) CIIANCELLOR....But if he is to be found, hate lon obj:,:tion to his betas called, and when uo you isit •• Now, how. my Lord," both from Mr. Brougham and Mr. Denman. Lord L lISK I N E said, that the question proposed to be put to the Judge* by the Nun:e and Learned Lord on the tVoo.seck, did not meet his view of the ea:4. lie (Load Erskine . ) would pra c tise. another, to the following elifect:—" If on any utal a IwiLIIOS is caned un the rut of the plaint:4l; and gives evidence ii;.,:unst the den:Want ; and if, after t.;e etoss-examination, it is eascovered that the witness 443 examined has ende.(counl to (.ler rupt pemons to give evidence iti4ainst the def.:taint, %A:ether Counsel for the thdenoant may nut 'oealloscd to adduce ‘videdee UL s e.. Cut Tart acts?" 'fi.e Lad tit CAUNARVON said, that it was of no tr.* to tele' to tile Ju. gel WC their iyinani, since it WA .111c.we.i sin all kari al , that ht the end, ate hod Wcie nut 1)0.13t1 to abide b. , : tind 01411:00. ru Ids Jut:wham. the fillLata , ll proposed Was COll. salmi with every object of s!dastant:al justice, road lie tut:reline tia.lie at once. that in t..ett of re:;:ritai.; the que.theis propred to the Learned .: edges, " the questalasi , roposed by the Cou nsel for her Maje.-iy ilionoi tie lam i!dt." Tile 10111) ANCEI.I. I 4I then s.t.d. "Is it put Lord. ships' pleasure the question proposed be answered ?" It was nei o stived without a tavision, and the liaise adopted the motion tor sending the queashm to the Judges. " .le., ski,, is airy trial in WO COtUti htTlor, whine a witness is canal 839 to give evidence in such cause. and after eross-exanduation, it is discovered that he corrupted, or endeavoured to corrupt, other witnesses, Counsel tu.ty be at liberty to give evidence of the fact. without calling bark the witness ?" 'filo MEM C ANCELLOR handed the question in writing to the Lo.(lCiiiel.litAicc. . . Lord EltsKIN P. then moved an adjournment. and the Maur actardingly adjoarned. SIX 1 - LLN 111 I) %Y 01 THE DEFENCE. FRIDIY, tier. 21). The Nfirquis of L 'net -in.'s to the Counsel being called in, moved that their Lordships' order of the 2151 tit A tOr the attendance a witnesses. from day to 114triti2 the tOIIIIIIUHICC of these proceedings be read. The miler was read accordingly; when the Noble Mar tini, said, after o hat had passed yesterday, he felt it right to call their Lou dship's attention to this order. Previous to tla,t question being put to Use Judges yesterdit,t , a Noble F.:4r! ( Li ve rim.... 1 proposed that, to save ti:ne Saccid should he called beck; and lie understood the Counsel for the (Jiii•en acceded to it, if he should be called immediately ; but it appeared he was not in Attendance so as to he called bono..iiately; and iiitleed, he owlet stood that lie was 110 i even in town. (Ye., lie wits, 1 . 1 . 0111 Lord Liverpool).— Theo lie was not within call. It he hod, all the nose wasted in discussion wo , ld have been saved. limier these eiretituumices he thought their Lgrilships sliatilJ enforce liliS order, awl not let it be a dead letter ou tits talqe. . . _ Tile Earl of LIVERPOOL certainly widerstood that haVe been called, hail the Counsel required it. As to their Lsi &hips order being eidarced, he could have nil objection. Indeed lie thought the witnesses ought to be iii Sad' a AlltlAloll the proceedings al would enable them to attend instantly if required. H• did not understand that the Qiiven's Cotinsel did so require the ultewlance of S.u•rht yeatei day. The Marquis of LAN6DOWN understood Mr. lirOugh am, when lie was ask d, if he wished Sacclii to attend to say " yea, now.' Alter a lee words from Laid Lauderdale and Lord IZVllCStlithe, the l•lthjeCt 111'01/1, With all unilerstandiiig, that tacit Lord.hi l •s wirer war to be enforced. Counsel were then called in, and the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench iiroceedod to declare the 'violin) of thu• Judges on the questions itferred to them last night by Cie Lind Chancellor awl Lord Erskilie,anil tied:sled 111, it opinion that both questions should be answered ill the negative; and that betide a witness could be examined to the declaration of a former %sinless, the witness must be called back, and interrogated as to those declares. Coo:. The LORD CH INCELLOR, then addressed Mr, !trough:lin, and said some dile' enees of up:nion existed as in the questions pm to him yesterday, and his answer it its to C. 114114 S.ieellij he would now ask him, did lie ilesile to call him. . . _ llitouGttsst he certainly expressed his wish to call him yesteidry, had he beta forthcoming, lint he wit • slot stow d.s,:osed to call hint. /dad 5113.110U . 111 th.mght it right to state to the u•e th.rt a messenger was sent to Sect:lsi's h .use yester• day, and he Nall conllug duWil to attend their Lordships. lieu lie was met by several Noble Lords, who told lout the I loose land adjoes ord. 'r he LORD Cl-L%'..Nr CELLOR then pet it to their Lord ships to Adopt the opinion delivesed by the Judges. Lord GREY would not oppose tile decision of the Judges, but he considered there AU still another ground on ollieli thus question might he pet, and that was, that saeelii had been proved by 11. s acts the agent of the Aldan Commissioit. The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not assent to this °Minim ut the Noble Earl, for the ucaiMlS formerly urged to their Lot dships, he still cumiunt ti of opinion no agency was proved. Lord ERSKINE thonglit the Counsel would yet be well justified in requesting their Lordships to receive this evidence, tulaillntaudillg the opitif of the Leas tied Judges, for whom he had the highest respect. Their Lordships should consider they were not strictly a Court of Justice, and therefore ought not to eousider themselves strictly bound by the rules of as Court Of Law. Toe Noble Earl opposite had declared agdisist setting as a Culls t of Law alien he decided against piece tiling by impeachment, because lie s aid adultery, if moved, was not a mime at c law: and was the UOCell to he subjected to all the inconveniences and injustice of the proceedings now instituted a;:disist her, and have noise of its advantages ? Ile WOW.' detain she lionse uo for. titer in di 111411 to say taut lie sliumd vow fdr the • examisiattun proceeding. Lord II.tRN LEY contended, that liar agency lied been proved usi the past of Sacclit, by uis own answer in several parts of has examination. Loud MANNERS Ilimight, as the rules of evidence had been so strictly :What ed to on the nue aide in these pro- Veriiii., It was e:411.111) racasial lei the cods of justice, last thry should be winery.' has on the other. fie thou.:id it 'amnia be tutored is the Judges to say,whetliet agasaly had hetll mot 0.1 sir not. Loud LANSOOWN could peter consent to refer to the J,:ilges any slues:ion of fsc I ; built wound be the case if they writ• to ere to tile Leas lir Petsuiss to say, whether agency had het is mused or nut. 'lke LO3ll CIiANCELLO:( raid lie would, with the COMO•OI oat their Laidshlps, now put the (00%1103 to the iluisseohat this spiestiun should nos be put to the w itiiess. Clam this their Euttlships divided, when the numbers were, tar the question hying I; .sgainsa it lar. The Marquis of LANSI)I).% N t said, lt. forrerly pats 110 i see t..at aascu this head of detence airs ela.ect, Is, should hove a Itfoibuolf“ It 10 tutttnalwi nlr 1G C.C.f Lar.O.itipa. Ile ass tituitiott it tight to state a hitt It was 10 the r..colieettrin ut their Lordships that at the cominenc. - mem of fiat be ,/1111:4 • 111,11W. :he is. eosin., of kevitinit Ilse m it• bract's i.a I.les country was stated and rhArted 10 MI sill lIMOb.. It would aka lir re, oIICCALII Ila.a, c us s:u•ary to the din mud .1 thpir Sa Most 111.41.'14A a sans's. hod absent' s' hut self j 411.115411 (MI) lielmitie. but 11..1 twill Ili lit till of away. •fl,e a 4 eisi tut the WU hail hiss esarnined on suns pliant at Owls Lorilshic hdr AILS h,d,io tile COlase Of I:lbst vialaiiillOot ...Idled, 115 ,1 leis les ))))) is ter seintsisg Has. It Id suit O. WC counts,. mere to make him the tut r.sesiger to thr..s . ist...lsdu to lug friends sir the ait wises a its were au .his coin., ry , mat tu tu-vey s, to Col. It uo.a. 11 twit gn(•srsti ed :,stolrklrssasdleub. hull lit Col. Mutt a reiail e to taissioit„ausl ctrummiirati , ns trona C I. thrown on the sulsjcct ut Rdstelles ut -it dt ut a. being reqiiired to produce saris letters, Mr. 1 , 115% 4:Shirt to produce the..., ass silt 5 f015..116 that oar ass an 'gear 001 at liberty to datitze coy 'Act,. tit w e pi is.Civitt. XOll/