The Statesman. — London, England, 1821-02-13 00:00:00

p Majesty's Ilkwernmeut were in possession of any De elarstion on the part of the Allied Powers hostile ' Naples ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repli (as we understood the Right Honourable Geutlernae), that he was not aware of the receipt of any such do. eameut, but that his Noble friend would be in the - House to-morrow, and would give the Noble Lord a more rip** insigr on the subject. GRAMPOUND. Lord JOHN RUSSELL in moving that the House should resolve itself into a Committee on the Gram pound Disfranchisement Bill, observed, that it would he quite superfluous for him to go over the grounds on whirl, the bill had been introduced, fully discussed as they bad been on so many former occasions. Ad. vertiug to the propositions which had been made with respect to the place to which the franchise should be transferred, he said he should himself prefer trans feral% it to Leeds, because that place contained a lar,re and respectable class of housekeepers, who at present had no vote for the election of a Member of Parliament, and because that would practically tend to reduce the grievance that five of the largest towns i ► Great Britain were destitute of a single Repre sentative. At the same time it was almost as great a grievance that a county, so extensive and populous as Yorkshire, should return but two Members to Paella meat. He was really very indifferent whether the elective franchise taken from Orampooad, was con ferred on Leeds, or on the county of York generally. He should net at present enter into the general goes . tion of Reform ; what be thought, if the Bill was . not pas ,ed in one of those forms which he had men- Coned, it would be to tell the people that they could have no expectations from that House. The Noble Lord concluded by moving the Order of the day for the House to resolve it self into a Committee. Mr. ORENFELL said, that as he had previously resisted all motions for Reform a; visionary, it was o'cessary for him to state his reasons for supporting th Bill. He would oppose any great or general e'teration of the Constitution, but he was willing to adept a principle for the removal of corruption, and t. , : applying a specilic remedy, as it was proposed to il(o in the present instance, by transferring the right obi r lectiou to the town of Leeds ; that he thought otild be a practical remedy to an admitted evil, the a. i , birtion of which could not but be attended with salutary consequences. Mr. R. MARTIN said,that lie rhould resist fire Bill in every stage of it, both as to the principle and the appliretiun of it. It sot out with stating an untruth by declaring that the elections in Grampoutod were notoriously corrupt. In refuting that be referred to the elections which had taken place since the Bill bad been pending. In this particular instance they should by the efficacy of the existing law before they ven tured on a new plan—they should try the efficacy of the bribery oath, as tendered at all elections ; if that sere done he had no doubt but that mach of the evils co.eplained of would be avoided. He should as soon thio.k of taking away the Charter from the Bank of England, as the Franchise from the Borough of Gram art d. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW contended, that the improve ment in the purity of election, as evinced in the two la e elections for Urampound, was to be attributed to tie fact of this Bill having been hanging over the . heads of the electors. The bribery of Orampound seas so notorious, that he would, without hesitation, onsent to the disfranchisement of that Borough. He approved of transferring the right of voting to the Town of Leeds in preference to the adjoining Hun died; of Pyder and Powder, which were already fully represented. Mr. WILSON approved of the Bill because it went to remedy • practical evil. As to the comparison which had been made between Urampound and the Batik of England, he contended, that if a blot appeared on the Charier of the Bank, it should not be held sacred, after the powers entrusted to it had been abused. He thought the only way in which Parlia mentary Reform could safely take place was, that lo rever an evil was proved to exist, a suitable re medy should he applied. Mr. LOCKHART contended, that it had been proved that the King's writ for the return of Mem bers for the Borough of Urampound had been reeu larly construed into a writ of vendirioxi calmness. Ile did not object to the disfranchisement of that Boroogh, but he did not wish that the principle of feuding the electile franchise to the payers of scot and lot should he mixed up with the present Bill. Ile believed the representation to hr on too narrow a basis either to shield the people, or to support the dignity of the Crown. He should, therefore, give his support to any regulation which would admit property to a greatershare in the representation. He did not approve, however, of the transfer of the elec . tive franchise to the payers of scot and lot, as it would bear too intensely on a salted Monarchy. To the . disfranch'.sement of Urampound, as an act of pull tical justice, he had not the least objection. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that the Hon. Member (Mr. Lockhart) expressed himself fully setisfied as to the principle of disfranchising lirampound, he only differed upon a comparitively immaterial point, namely, as to what place the franchise should be transferred. The far greater difficulty was as to recognising the principle of disfranchising the Borough ; a principle •rendered quite necessary, in consequence of the shame ful system of bribery awl corruption which had been so lung practised by the Elt:tors of G•ampound. With respect to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for tialway (Mr. Martin), undoubtedly, if that Hon. Gent thou rht that there was no necessity for Reform of any kind—if be th.eglot that gross bribery ought rot to be noticer!, there could not, in his opinion, be any use for the House going Into a Committee, or doing any thing • else to put an end to bribery and corruption. But that Hon. Gentleman had stated his conviction that many of the Electors were bribed, and bow did he propose to •protect the public from that evil ? By adding perjury • to bribery—(hear)--for if the oaths of persons guilty of bribery and corruption were to be taken,wbat would it lead to?—manifestly to nothing but perjury. He (Sir John Newport) could not help thinking that the plan suggested by the Hon. Member would rather con firm the evil than promote any saldtary Reform, it would be more injurious to the character of the people than any other usemnare. Mr. MARTIN explained. • A Manama, whose name we could not learn, said that theses be had hitherto voted against the Reform in Parliament 'mold remove the I . *nee., he was cenvineltd that the public . echoed more frequently within the wells of that . than it was the fashion to ack►owledge. Mr. DAVIES GILBERT rose to move instructions to the Committee. He said, that on the main question of Reform, he perfectly agreed to evety sentiment con tained in a late speech pronounced by the Right lion. Member for Liverpool, before his Conatitt►ents. The Hon. Gentleman then stated, at some length, but in a very inaudible manner, his opinions on the question before the House. He stated that he was willing to support the principle of the Bill fir disfranchising Grampound, but lie thought that no Freeholder, who had not been convicted of bribery, should be deprived of his right of voting, hut that he should re tain that right, and that the right of voting generally should be transferred to the neighbouring llondreds. The lionnurabk Gentleman concluded by moving " That instructions, should be given to the Committee to make a provision to extend the right of voting of the Borough of Orampeund to the Freehold ers of the adjacent Hundreds. Mr. PHILLIPS, of Manchester, said the lion. Gen tleman (Mr. Gilbert) seemed afraid that the country should have 4 more free and perfect system of re' sentation ; now he (Mr. Phillips) differed so much with the Hou. Gentleman, that he felt and lamented that the people of England did not enjoy a fair system of representation—that the feelings of the country were not fairly represented in that House—(that in the language of Mr. Burke) it did not possess the spi rit or essence of a British House Commons. The Hun. Member (►lr. Gilbert) had acknowledged the gross r orruption of Grampound, and admitted that the franchise should be taken from Own. But to whom did he propose it should be given—to another part of the country which was uncorrupted by the example of Grampound ? No! hut to the very hundreds in which that scene of iniquity had been acted. A Right Hou: Gent. (Mr. Canning) who had been referred to, and whose sentiments tie lion. Member (Mr. Gilbert) iev- adopted as his own, had stated, that it was with him no argument for admission to the exercise of the elective franchise, that a district had increased in wealth, com merce, and population. Now wealth, commerce, and po pulation were generally indicative of the intelligence of a district. He could not conceive, if wealth, coca- merce and population were to be no rules fur giving the elective franchise, on what principle a national re presentation could be constructed. The want of Re presentatives at this time for the manufacturing dis tricts was a great practical evil. Every one must have witnessed the increase, especially in the manu facturing districts, of intelligence and activity of mind within the last twenty years; that activity and that intelligence, if not admitted to its participatiuu in the Constitution, became hostile to it. The Hon. Member (Mr. (filbert) had told them of the population of Corn wall, and of the two hundreds, especially of Pyder and Powder, but be should have told them also of the po pulation of other districts. Cornwall sent 41 member,/ to Parliament, or an 11th part of all the representation of the kingdom ; the population of Cornwall was only 1.50 th of England. The population of Lancashire, which was about 1-11th of the population of England, had only a 35th share io the representation ; and Yorkshire, which had 1-10th of the population of the kingdom, had ouly!ahout 1-17th of the representation., Cornwall, it would Ite- seen, had one member for about every 5000 inhabitants; Lancashire only one for 60,000. There was no reason for this undue prefer ence. In 1815, according to the property Tax re turns, the real property of Cornwall amounted only to 1-54th part of the kingdom the real property of Lan cashire 1-16th ; and that of Yorkshire to 1-10th or 1-11th. If the lion. Member approvtd of the present plan of representation, he must not only wish that the Elective franchise should be given, not in proportion to wealth, commerce, and population, but in an inverse ratio to them.--(Hear.)--The manufacturing districts certainly felt the want of Representatives more than any other, and there were obvious reasons why those districts should have special representatives to refer to. Much of the discontent which existed in those districts would cease, if the inhabitants had regular means of stating their complaints. Elections in those districts would be conductors for carrying off disaffection, which, if not removed, would burst out intosome vio lent change. Mr. H. GLYRNEY said, the Honorable Member for Bodmin (Mr. D. Gilbert), who had so well pleaded the cause of his Cornish neighbours, when he pro posed that the elecorial franchise should be given to the Hundreds of Pyder and Powder, had omitted to state what they had done to deserve this mark of fa vour.—(Hear.)--He (Mr. Gurney) contended, that there was no greater tendency to democracy in the Members for populous places, than in the Members for Counties or Boroughs. The principle of trans fer, from one town to another, had been acted upon in numerous instances, from the reign of Edward the First, to the reign of Charles the Second, a space of 400 years. Within that time 140 places bad been added and ;0 taken away from the representation ; but as to the principle of transferring the right of re presentation from a Borough ,to Freeholders, where was there a precedent for that?—(Hear.) —Such a transfer was contrary to all the analogies of the Con stitution. '1 he Freeholders had been went to return Knights of the Shires,c and the Borongh Burgesses : but the extension of right of voting to the Freeholders of an adjoining HundreJ, gave a double character to the Freeholders. There was no instance before that of SLoteman, a measnre extorted from the weakness of Lord North's Administration, and passed by stn .:11 majorities in smelt Houses. Neither was there, by such a change, any improvement in the theory •f the Constitution. Into a Borough, Gentlemen, of the Law, and others of classes which were not directly re presented, might find their way, and thus indirectly improve the representation. But when the right was transferred to freeholders, an extention of represents fftre power was given to a class which had not the least 'lbalm to it.--(Hear.)--The next instance to that of Shoreman, was that of Aylesbury. The men of Aylesbury had rebelled against the power of the Mar quess of Buckingham, and bad began to trade for themselves. For this they were struck off the list of boroughs, and the right of voting win thus given to the Modred, by which the power of returning was and Tiered the n ii. via- 'aliorded et aseartainia; cause a •Ilispointion At to the particular case -oey hod at first six :boroughs, a number not very disproportioned to its population, but that number was increased from tinge to time, be cause this county was particularly under the influence of the Crown. In the reign of Edward VI. when the Cornmeal' refused tit pass -the attainder 9f Somerset, the Duke of Northumberland caused writs to be issued to six Raw Cornish boroughs, which writs be accom panied with his fatuous letters, in which he told them, in many instances, whom they should return, and in others, ordered them to advise with a Member of his Privy Council. If it was nntorious that a great number of the Cornish boroughs were added to the represen tation when that Duehy was in the hands of the Crown, by an abuse of the prerogative, if at any time a case should be made out against them, to strike the of fending borough out of the list, and to transfer the right of a populous town, would be in strict conformity to the spiri. of the English Constitution. The Hon. J. W. WARD, said he did not conceive ':hat by voting for a Bill for the disfranchisement of a burouali in which bribery was notorious, and for transferring the elective franchise to a populous town, he was more giving a pledge to what scan called Parlia mentary Reform, than he should have done if he bad voted for the Acts respecting Shoreham, Cricklade, in supporting and Aylesbury. He would not for the sake of a had bees acct wall amendment introduce a ;weeping precedent, prevention of t but where he saw no danger of setting a pernicious and to whieli 1. precedent, he would not renounce a clear benefit, lie ruling necosaii said a clear benefit, because the manufacturing dis- them. tricta stiffcred for the want of representatives, which Mr. MAXW' was to them, not a fanciful or theoretical, but a prat- Mr. WILMI tical want. There was, indeed, no great body store- self strictly to presented in that House ; that was, none that was to the specific without a sympathising interest aud an able advocate with the gem within those walls. There were cases in which this In a pplying r indirect mode of representation was the best, as it was lie could not effectual u bile it was not burthensome to the subject. I e ffect of the But wheu complicated, private interests aud great for- not be satisfied, tunes were at stalie, it was fit that the representatives totally expu' should be persons tinder the snore ionnediaie cogni- transferring zance of the represented, and as chosen by them en- Leeds, were prepai joying their more entire confidence. This was a cations of tlic p)inve Jack case in fitvonr of the transfer to Leeds. ready to support lf, indeed, by extending the franchise to that town, to th e o ther - there was a danger of a precedent for changing the Berland, for whole representation, there would be a ground of oh- West Riding jection to it ; but when the means of doing what was Mr. B. BA' desirable was forced upon them—when they were the propriety obliged to be astute and it ;enjoin in disposing other- House was how wise of the franchise, there could be no danger of this measure - a precedent in extending the right to Leeds. He nefit, lie thou, knew that trete the manufacturing towns were not in applying represented, their interests were attended to by required. T 1 Members for the County in which they stood : mem had dot 'but thong"' this was an alleviation of the evil, it a reme dy as by no means removed it. County Members, though novation as most respettahle men, were perhaps not the most fitte d s representatiL lw habits and education to manage the intricate and complicated business of a manufacturing community. A MENDEZ, ithin the last century interests had grown up, to in support of which it was to be wished that a more direct represents- opinion, that tion should he given. Our ancestors would not be sue- most populous prised if they could see the small dependent Boroughs of the present day, for those they were well acquainted the principle constituted. wills : hut ibt y would he surprised to see towns twice as large as their Loudon, without a representative.— lily. (Hear !)—As to the effect of this Bill on those uho were li"erat'm was not violently bent on a general and theoretical Reform, come the House it could not be doubted that they would be more satin- or temporizi7 fled if the right were given to a great town. What signal and was the striking defect of the present system ? It was convince the the unrepresented state of the great towns. prevent corrM —But of all the grounds of claim to the vacant fran chise, local proximity was the least reasonable.—(Hear.) how could the —How did it happen that the hundred became the heir rant count ti , . to the deceased borough i—(.l laugh.)—They might as not be adequate' well, if the Bank of England were proved guilty of cor- of the tummy rnption, call in the inhabitants of Threadneedle-street, country wool as the rightful successors to the forfeited charter. No nrity of Oa doubt when the object was to save the electoral r i g hts of the voters u horn (not having beets proved guilty) read the peopi Lands of der they were hound to consider innocent, there was a reason for calling in the people of the Hundred, but in misled by this instance how many ware the voters to whom the on these Honourable i;entlenian (Mr. Gilbert) wished to preserve to Leeds tlsa, their rights ? 'Euchre, as be understood. much abused Mr. D. GILBERT said, be proposed to preserve the He could be elective franchise to all the voters during their lives. Hon. !Remises They amounted to 40 or 50. Afterwards the right of cornwall had voting would he given to the Mayor and Corporation, returning tt twelve in number. should ratio Mr. WARD continued. But after all, what was it the electors of Grampound bad now ? A goo d market- than to any able commodity ;—(llear, and a I'll4o0 —and they were the extreme going to give them in return a dry constitutional fran- by that eon: clsise. They slimild put out of the case, Cricklade, Cornwall shool Shoreham and Aylesbury, which were too recent to b e grace upon of any authority, and less consistent with ancient usage. inhabitants Till within the memory of man, there were no such ono-Strom makes as these half knights half-burgesses. He (Mr. W.) g the was disposed to live in the old house as long as he which had a could, hut if a part of it fell down about his ears, he With these would re-build it as well as he could. When the Re- Noble Lord' formers pointed out to him the irregularities of the con ed, as well stitutional building, he would say, „I will not at all trust my own powers to pull it down for the purpos e o f case, as to re-building it ; ' but lie would also say, " nitro I am to to that Hots obliged to alter it, I will do according to a form which p promises to my judgment strength and convenience." — lig hted p oll (Hear, hear.) A MEM Mr. WYNN said, as to the proportion which had ported the been calculated between population and represent's. means au ad , Lion, he was content to rake the Constitution as it was; right of clr but as to the Bill before the House, be was ready to collecting t take his stand, on the admission that there was an ad- turned to the flatted practical grievance (for none but the Member Mr. Aldo for Galway hsri denied it) in the gross and glaring of " Quest' corruption of Orainpound. Without the intervention that the Wo of Parliament, it was well known that notoriously Lord J. corrupt Boroughs had never been cured. When they was put to . merely wished to infuse purer blood into a borough, a few remarks they resorted to the adjoining hundred. That rru- urged again seeding was, however, a great anomaly, and though submit to the it had been of use was of modern introduction. lint dearour to i% the present instance he saw no reason for follow- other side ing such a precedent The measure proposed by the in favour oi Noble Lord, or any similar measure, could not pro- Honourable . duce a material ch ange,. and be liked it the better on or any proposit that account. The House would nut do its duty if it stitution looked to the wishes of those who clamoured for Re- Reform were form, instead of confining itself to the simple consider- contrary, ation of what was most Isenelleial to the interests of vote for h. the country. He was perfectly satisfied with the House plan of Reform. as it was now constituted. They had been told that min had argued if it represented the opinions of the people, it would env undue share never Lave consented to pass Bills limiting and abridg- country, " t ing the popular rights ; but an opportunity had bees Members immediately aftet. what was the consequence not a single instan inrurred the support of those the proposition her for Nortl► measure; hut Member for North, more inconveniences Mr. F. ROP shortly the view fore the House grounds upon sure which had Friend under Honourable I? , the principle the adjoining the absurdity •rsmpound won, able commodity would hare been the voters for ' but this was far cessary fur hir 111 6 i . oil i l as. . Ti STATES - A )e- aiseasnte o Patitansen ty ht widt p- i frett4ll4 e Cavendish Ws te present ntoti ; al do so be • v events, thotth sew be believe rNees e would giro treat p.iMtc satisfaction. He dictated their independence. A i e d was not. however. one of those who thonorba—litat-a of Cornwell, that county had __ ..... _...1.1:. oviriow. a nitnibrr not very dispronorti4 - . , . Ememameismigag s 41 cur/Asinine what the t eal tenth wu, be. ' i notion of Parliament ••tiaok plow, thee • 0 titer the passing of * those- Bills. A si VI consequence? He believed th at , vm listener in which a county Member t o i , ei w n dlei o s f prni t e h el e assiku N re o res ble f Lo hifi rd se , ct o ha r nn t us h igi a th t st o ent f illib the a VII tTi li ‘ wo , th Pe Kt i orbe an th ru p be uivn r eber lan t il imp we re.berk ni r d z be ,see a itto goodi wout Nitta tio ril tio sitnces at once. MUNSON wished In explain a n , Pr ew which he took of this gami n, ti t e be as se came to • decision, and to st e w t h e 11P s which he was inclined to prefer the la w P° lad been suggested by his Hotiestat e r the Gallery (Mr. D. Gilbert.) s o PC oe rriend near him (Mr. Ward) object e d to eb of transferring the elective hackie. ts ( liendreds, and had commented Non of supposing that the inhabinate , would be anxious to exchange a swe et . V.I ty for a dry constitutional right. Th, ii icon some weight in this argument if Ali lei °impound bad been guilty of brawn ; tie far frog) having been proved. It was ft- rat iin to trouble the Honse at greater length itt those principles upon which the HoeiA VI atstomed to art in similar cases, for the wi r those atones to which they were applied, re i he was disposed to adhere, unless an over. it sity could be sbewn for departing h as in re * WELL supported the motion. tb 401 thought the House should cosieeit. bi o the consideration of applying a randy c grievance, and not mix up this whi m et neral question of Parliamentary Reform el a punishment to the offending Bareigi, It ei put out of his consideration the moral e decision of the Legislature, and he Omit el led, if the name of Orampound were set a ingid. If the Noble Lout opposite, is tl the, elective franchise to the Borough of ss prepared to set due limits to the g u m. lie voters, he (Mr. Wilmot) was perfetoiT i port that measure, and he should prefer it I proposition if the Member for Northme r extending the right of soling to tie g of Yorkshire. i ATHUBST, while he fully concurred is t y of applying some remedy, though tie I bound to consider the practic,il result of e ; and in order to secure a practical he. t ought they ought not to take a wider range, I a remedy, than the necessity of the caw i They were bound to look to what Perlis- ,1 one in former instances, and to apply such s was calculated to introduce as little ie. t I i possible into the existing state of the ion. 1 lan, whose name we could not learn, spsin i of the original proposition, express* his I at to confer the right of voting upon the 1 lour districts, would be congenial with i le upon which that Howse was origeary TLETON said, that the case under tee ras of such a nature that it would not he come to meet with any thing like energise jug expedient, but rather to visit it will condign punishment. His object waste e people that that House was disposed ID ruption in the election of its members, sod , that impression be produced if sects Ilag• tion as that disclosed at Orampouod shosU uately punished ? By the adoption this, ; asure proposed by the Noble Lord, the mid he inspired with confidence in the sat House, which would thus be enabled to ople, instead of letting these fall into the nosagogues, or leaving them liable to he visionary or vicious schemers. He was, t ' grounds, an advocate for transferring 4, hat right of voting which had bees es --1 Heel by the electors of Orarnpoold. , t oy no means agree with the opinion of tie her for Bodmin, that where a Borough is had forfeited by corruption its right of two Members to that House, that right her he transferred to the adjoining hoard, r remote populous district ; for, consider* le disproportion of representation possessed 1 antv, he could not subscribe to the idea that hould be blessed with the dew of everlutieg i the subject of representation, however its s might abuse their power, or beerier claim of other and more populous districts at present no representatives in that Hoaw. r views he felt it his duty to support the d's motion, which he hoped would be ateeye I from a consideration of the justice of the o restoßribi - confidence of the country Ouse if it had ever lost this confidence, Set the principles of a pure, liberal, and ea- ,licv. I BE R, whose aria we could not learn, sir e original mattes, *hough he iris by so . advocated for the gointral shades of the . lose boroughs to return representatives , so' that the celebrated Hampden was first et that House by one of these borougbs. lemon HEY GATE here rose, but the i t lion! Question!" was so loud and p Forthy Alderman sat down. . RUSSELL said, that before the vanities ) the vote, he thought it necessary to OM larks upon the objections which bad bees ,inst the motion which he had the bowels , . the House. In the first plate he shoald * o rescue his Honourable Friend who, ea * of the House, bad thought proper to spook of his motion, from the inspoststion that ate she Member who should support the prestos , iposition of Reform. was manes the for to serious danger ; u, if the priociPie._". rere once admitted, no one mold say to or he felt that a Member might eonsisteolli his proposition and yet resist isAY ge l r., llll deform. The Hoooerable Member for NW argued that Cornwall did swot in fact po_sr, se share In the several representation of ___l° because, truly, only Are out of Oa fon T . scion)* et" I returned by that 4:011111. Kett :k i i a• W !° PC of a To e el