The National Register. — London, England, 1820-05-14 00:00:00

Ga4llvonsm—Lord J. RUSSELL moved for large to bring in a Bill to exclude Grampound from exercising the right of returning two Members, and to transfer that right to the Borough of Leeds. He proposed to invest the right of voting in persons rated at 51. and upwards, and to the Inhabitants ot the neichbouting villages, amounting to about thirty. The inhabitants amounted to about 70,000, the number of voters, it was expected, would be about 7,000. His main object was to deprive a convicted Borough of the elective franchise. He concluded with moving for leave to bring in a Bill. Mr. CANNING admitted the correctness of the prin ciple that a Borough convicted of corruption should be disfranchised—but protested against its being inferred that he approved of the transfer to Leeds. He also pro. tested against any general principle being drawn from this specific proceeding. To that he should be no party. He ailed for information whether it was intended that Granspound should be beard by Counsel? Lord J. RUSSELL answered in the negative, the case _ having been investigated by Parliament. - Motion agreed to, Bill brought in, read a Brat time, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday selinight. Tat Queen.—Lord A. HAMILTON enquired whether there was to be any provision made for the Queen, and when It was to be proposed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that provision for the Queen, as well as other branches of the Royal Family, would be proposed. Tas LATI CONSPIRACT.—Mr. Alderman WOOD rose to move for a Select Committee to examine Charges of High Trenton against George Edwards.—The evidence bad come before him as a Magistrate. He Lad mrde every effort to induce fie highest authority, the Secretary of State, tointerfere, but in vain. He had thirty depositions, which he should deem it his du y to read, unless he bad a Committee; hut he hoped a Committee would be granted. Edwards was the person who suggested plots, and sup plied money, weapons, &c. The worthy Alderman said, be should persevere, except the authorities would inter fere. Threats would have no effect on him.—The case was similar to that where be had rescued Once men from destruction who had been trepanned; the difference here was, the increased atrocity of the crime which the parties were seduced to commit. He then proceeded to read the substance of the depositions which detailed minutely the facts. Sir R. WILSON seconded the motion for a Committee, condemning a Spy system, and maintaining that oo Admi nistration could. be good which might require the aid of any such system. . no SPEAKER then put the question. Mr. BANKES said, that such • motion ought to be supported either by some case of precedent, or some analogy in other times ; or it ought to be founded on the urgent necessity of the case. The motion was totally inconsistent with every thing he understood constantly to belong to ihe functions of that House. He (Mr. Bsnkes) did not deny that Edwards was implicated in guilt, bet the others who acted with him were not less so: but, however atrocious the plot, he thought it was shaken at the present moment, and that no danger could now be feared from it. What, then, was the object of the hon. Alderman by this motion? Was it that Edwards should be brought to justice as a traitor to his country, or to those associates to whom it would seem he was more bound? This could not be his object, for, by his own admission, be would not have him, or any man, punished with death for that or any other crime, except murder: but the hon. Alderniin wished that this man should be sent out of the country ; but this object would be attained without his motion, said that according to his own state ment. What woeld the hon. Alderman say if Si gang of robbers had laid a plot to plunder his house and attack his family, and information of the intended attack were communicated by one of the party? Would lie say to him, " Go, you are as bad as the rest ; yon deserve no credit, and ought to be punished." Would the hon. Al derman say this, and, after having dismissed his iliformant, go supinely and stupidly to sleep? He (Mr. Bunkea) was certain that no man would act so incautiously ; and were the House to be told that less care was to be taken for the public than for an individual—There was a great man, • magistrate of ancient times, and of another court. try—he certainly did not mean to compare him to the Worthy Alderman—whose vigilance and integrity had saved his country from • most font conspiracy. He bail a different opinion from that entertained by the hon. Al derman on the snbject of getting information from some of the guilty parties. Whatever other opinions might be entertained of that great man (Cicero), there would he, lie believed, but one on his conduct on that occasion. He laid not hesitated to seek and receive information, from the courtesan Frilvia, of Catalinea designs; anal the am bassadors of the Allobroges he encouraged to continue to attend the meetings of the conspirators,in order that their designs might be inure fully discovered. —Leger?. preripit sit Iridium conjurations ockonenter simulent ; calms adroit : dentque *porno, *tees fawns mace 'e maul 'l% was the conduct of that great mail Irate ; and it was a conduct for which accused by the lovers of their country. conclusion, the hon. gent. again es no ground whatever for acceding to . rose.—The lion. Member said, that .bservations on this subject lie heal to dimes of the House to a young Member .1 hops he required on this occasion Al kindness, for lie could not conceal .ould the hon. Member conceal from •culiatity of the saltation in which lie Ae. On this ground, therefore, be hail to dgence; and lie also needed it In another 'gist be considered a degree of boldness the purpose of combating the opinions the long experience and high eh:nuclei ' the !Milk! at large, of the lion. Mem dos n. .in might appeal bold in him titian comiag front such audios iiy— precedent talk found for what he idinary a m as was proposed by a. He (Mr 11.)howevei Owlet an apininsi Miele's widely has that aieliva ed by and unless lie was if:mood of every right and isameg—sautes his view of 'holly ea roiwousw-i he plrbell: was such a Pal Bayern. naught seriously to consider had said that the a rinuilial jurisdiction of not to be meddled with Was at be lied never dune so before? Did the to assert that there were not precis., THE NATIONAL REGISTER. dents for the interference of the House in matters of criminal jurisdiction? On looking at the whole of the subject with which the present question was connected and recollecting the conduct of that House on other oc casion*, he saw no reason why inquiry should be refused. The Hon. Geotleman bad 'Boded to the practice of an cient times, and mentioned Cicero as having sought lit formation of Cataline's plans from Fulvia and the legates of the Allobroges ; but it did not appear that Cicero had employed either Fulvia or the Alluhroges to make that plot. There was, be conceived, no analogy between the two cases. He believed also, that if the opinions of some of the wisest end best of the ancients were sought, they would be found to be more in favour of the princi ple that spies should be punished, than that they sliculd be encouraged. Snetonions was so adverse to the system of spies, u to reckon them inter advents temporises. Titus held them in such a light that be ordered them to be whipped from the camp.—(Hear I bear.) The Right Honourable Member would excuse him for going into those cases, but be himself had led the way by his re ference to ancient history)—Coustantine was still more se. vere, fur be ordered spies to be put to death. But this hatred so spies, and this discountenaoce of that .stern, was not confined to good Emperors solely. Among the bad Emperors also were found some who justly appreciated sdclt characters. Cathode said be bad no ears for spies; and it was observed by Domitian, that Princeps gni Motor's non cooligat, irritat. So far for the opinion of the ancients-- He would now come to modern times. Having beard so much its favour of the system of spies, he had looked fato some modern writers, to ascertain whether they were either defended or approved • and he had not found any advocate for them, except that could be said to be a justification of them where Idachitivel said, that " governments employed brutes as well as men." hloolesquieu said, that " even in a monarchy spies are not to be employed ;" and he gave the reason---" fur the infamy of the person denoieth the infamy of the thing," Hiving said thus much, he would observe, that the Hon. Member who had asserted that the system of spies was necessary to the support of a good government, should have substituted the word " bad" tot the word "good" and then his assertion would be nearer the fact, for be (Mr. Hobhouse conceived, that no system of government could he considered a good out which required spies to support it.— Now considering this, be thought it was a reason why the Huse should consent to the motion, to skew to the coun try they bad the interest of the people at bean, and that they would not consent to the rapport of a system which tie good goverument could require. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BUTTERWORTH had heard so muck of the horrid details of the plot from this man. that he was absolutely shocked at the motion of the worthy Alderman. (Chan from the Mi nisterial benefice) He could not conceive what motive induced the worthy alderman to bring dila 'notion forward, except it was that which had induced him to question the unfortunate This tlewood in his last moments. (Loud and continued cheers from the Ministerial benches.) That conduct of the worthy Alder man be looked upon as most unjustifiable. and betrayed a want of feeling which be hardly thought any man could evince. The motion, he conceived. was calculated to produce a very bad effect in the country. and therefore be should oppose it. Mr. HUMS expressed himself sue, risa that the Von. Mem ber who had last spoken could impute such improper motives to the Hon Alderman who had introduced this question. The conduct of that Worthy Alderman was as upright and proper as that of the Hoa. Member himself. or any other Member ir. that House- The Hon. Alderman had acted in situations what that conduct was tried—in a situation which he (Mr. Butterworth) had not been in. and he was always found humanely attentive to all its duties. Was it. to be called a aims in him to endeavour to come at truth ? (Hear. hear.) The Hon. Alderman bad shown that Edwards. accompanied . by his brother, had brought an individual to a particular spot, in order that at a convenient time they might pounce upon him, and receive the money to which his conviction would entitle them. Was a motion for in- Autry into such a circumstance a fit object for the ridicule of the Hon. Gentlemen ? He would say that the object was laudable. and .be would ask whether Edwards was not now about to with- draw, in order to enjoy the mow which he had gained by his wicked practices ? And. no wn plots of the same kind were forthcoming, for in his use be believed that Mine • ten had been acquainted with the conspincy of Thin/tweed and his associates for a considerable time before it was =premed by their arrest. All that was wished by' the present modal was, net to criminate, but to inquire (as had how frequently done by Par- Bement on other occastons) whether there were any grounds for instituting criminal p Mr WYNN said, be knew nothing on the subject except from hearsay t but, from what was generally stated, he looked on this Edwards' as a person who had been employed to give intelligence to the Government. and who, in return, had gut a promise of security, and this pledge the House would out surely wish to ha broken. Mr. DENMAN could sae nothing so new in the present mo tion. After the occurrence of the disturbances in the North, it had been proposed that Committees should be appointed to in quire into the transactions ; and though those motions had been refused, they had never been treated as not consonant to the feelings, or not consistent with the regulations, of the Howe. Yet now, when it was stated that they wished to inquire into the character of Edwards, the Hon. Member for Corte-castle (Mr. Bankes) came forward. and overwhelmed with ridicule the Hon. Alderman who made the motion, and the gallant General wbo seconded it. As to spies, he would admit that, in some cases, the use of them was, no doubt. justifiable. (Hear.) But the question here was, who had employed Edwards. and who had given him the money which he received long before the plot was matured? Was the object in this case the discovery, or the manufacture of crime ? For his own part, he had strung doubts respecting the conduct of Government. This was not the first time that they had employed such an agent as Edwards. On the former trial of Thistlewood, along with Watson and others, it appeared that Castles, who was an accomplice at first, had afterwards become a spy, and bad been most active in manufac turing the clinics which lie disclosed; and he doubted not that the persons who were executed at Derby had been led to the scaffold by Oliver. who was employed by the Government. — (Hear, hear.) On the grounds which he had now stated, with a strong feeling against Use practice of employing spies, and with sonic professional experience, which convinced him that of late years this system had been carried by Ministers to a very impro per length, he should vote for the present motion. if die worthy Alderman should press a division. The ATIOHNEY.GENENAL of course opposed the me' don. Sir F. BUUDETT supported it at great length, and hoped that the public mind would be satisfied by such on inquiry . as that proposed. If iv his Majesty's Mini s t ers did sta clear n: all connexion with that odious creeture Edwards, in God's name let I them shew to the world that they did stand &or. lit the mean dale he should support the grounds of the inrp:ir. Mr. CANNING then ruse. He began by stating that his imention had been ant to have interfered in the prestilt ; but he was neither satisfied with die &at:: pis which this question had been left by die speeches which they had already heard from either side of the house, or by that tithe Hon. But. who had just now spoken. The Hight linn. Gentleman opposed the motion iu a very long speech, IA which he %misc. bout pollicemniur, dent! 1 lulus *absent. Such and excellent conisil lie bad never been ac. (Hear, hear.) In cc pressed, that be saw I the present motion. Mr. HOHHOUSE in offering a few oh' claim the usual kind' —(Hear);--and pet snore than Ihat usual from himself', nor so! themselves, the pedal stood in the House. Jack their indulgen :coped, for ii might in him to rise for the of a gentleman of the with the House, and 1 ber who bad just sal , to contradict an upil that there was no p termed so extracts die the hon. Alderman. 1 on thin question di& the lion. Member; il difference hem een r tthe question a as who *object as a British I' The hon. NI t tuber bat the country ought sic cause Parliament hi boa. Member meals 0n.... we, I 55 cessfully sedeavegeed Mto a imisk ups. the gaged. I i echoed several .elmereatiess whidt bad beige beam espeatcl:: made by other Members bees hie ode d the Hes" and down amid the dicers of the ihiskirriel is milec* Sir F. BURDETT did get maws ee male the House by any observation upon what the Hes. Gerdlemaa pathap:. dined argument What he (Sir F _eu) AloModis wag. the keeping in pay a set at *a. wka west gp atm dewy lbs coun try putting te practice ail dour loddiews sad etheldeveus art.. set hited is Massif tight with the Homes glen duo pHeo inmerely w t. but was wet paigi le Impale is their time by asking any furdwe mmtiegat um the akewel o maideses stupid. sod rith. admit ekeervatisge of theltiglit His. Geadsosig. (Hier.) Ti.c Hon. Bart. was lewdly can* le Mr. BROUGHAM reemegmeded the Hon. Alderman to withdraw his melbas bat only mint the ides that the Courts of Law were opts W him twseises Uin those Courts he should meet with any biquissat r the lion of this man, either by finding a EA suswort by the Government. or front any other cause, if ld wou then be time for him to come into that House. Mr. Alderman WOOD was reedy to withdraw his motion. upon the Attorney-General's giving a pie* that he would enter no process on the part of the Crown dust thould militate against the proceedings which be (Mr. Alderman Wood) would then institute at law. (Hear.) Meanwhile, he declared, that if he did not prove Edwards to have been the sole instigator of the late plot, be was not then in existence. The gallery was then ordered to pie cleared for a divans s but the motion was negatived without a division. Adjourned at half.past twelve. WEDNESDAY, KAY 10. There being only thirty-six Members present at font o'clock, the Speaker declared the Hone to stand ad journed till tomorrow (this day.) THVESRAY, NAT Petitions were presented from land-owners in Wiltshire, Cornwall, Dursetshire, Warwickshire, and Kent, com plaining of Agricultural Distress. ORPHAN'S Finson.—New POST OIVICIL—Ifir. H. SUM. NEM, on the Report presented by Sir W. Curtis of the Committee respecting the Post-office Petition, moved that the business be referred to u Select Committee to examine the estimate-, &c. • Mr. WILDMAN presented a Petition from Essex, on the subject of dividing the Sessions between Chelmsford and Colchester.—Referred to a Committee. Mr. MA BERLEY retie to move for an Account of Ex chequer Bills, how expended, &c. Motion agreed to, and various other papers were ordered respecting the Exchequer Billsolte. The remainicg Orders of the Day having bees disposed of, the House adjourned. CRIDAY, WAY 12. AGRICULTURAL Durraess.—Lord TEMPLE presented three Petitions from persons in Buckingliamshite, com plaining of agricultural distress. He declared, that the Petitioners only required that inquiry should be insti -1 tuted. Mr. CALCRAFT expressed himself glad to see these Petitions. He was fur throwing their doors as wide open as possible to petitioners ; and lie thought they were bonnd to inquire into the complaints of the several classes of his Majesty's subjects, particularly of the agricultural class. It seemed to be the desire to put an extinguisher on this subject ; he was glad that those who desired so much bad not the power of accomplishing their wishes. Lord NUGENT said. that the country was in a strange and anomalous situation. He was desirous that inquiry should be instituted. The farmers were in great distress; be believed that for the last two or three years the far mers had been chiefly living on their capital. The dis tress mainly resulted from the debt and a fictitious paper corrency• The Petitions were then brought up, read, and severally ordered to be printed. RaronaL—Sir M. W. RIDLEY presented a Petition from Newcastle upon Tyne, praying for Parliamentary. Reform, and signed by 3,600 inhabitants of that place, to the respectability of whom be could bear his personal testimony. Petition read, and ordered to be printed. CIVIL Liar PestioNs.—Lord SEFTON presented a Petition from Merchants and others of Liverpool, ou the subject of the Civil List Bill, praying that the part 1 - - garding; Pensions should be so limited that any Member of that House accepting any Pensioo slioald be deemed incapable of holding a scat.—Petition read. Mr. G. BEN Nrrr gave notice, that it was his intention to move to introduce a clause into the Bill embodying such regulation, to render persons holding Pensions inca pable of possessing seats in that House. (Hear.) Lord MILTON presented a Petition front Wakefield, complaining of the injuries sustained in the Woollen trade by the New Tex, tee. Ordered to lie on the table. CONDUCT OF THE MILITARY.—Mr. HOBHOUSE pre sented a Petition from inhabitants of Oldham, complain ing of excesses inflicted by the military. He bad inquired into lime allegations, and he found them to be correct. They stated, that this was the third time that they had been subjected to what they called " outrages from the military." Mr. H. CLIVE said, he thought the House would not receive the Petition. Sir F. BURDErr considered this to be a most extra ordinary mode of pro,ceeding. It seemed they were about to reject a petition, with the contents of which as yet they were wholly unacquainted. It was of great im portance at the present eminent, especially when it was recollected that armed soldiers were charged with assault ing unarmed and defenceless subjects. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought that the Petition ought to be received. (Loud Cheers.) Lord MILTON spoke iu favour of the Petition being received. The Petition, which was signed by npwards of 3000 residents of Oldham, was read ; and it couiplained that they had been subjected to a series of assaults and out rages Inflicted by the military. They prayed for enquiry. and that a reduction of the standing army might take place. Mr. HOIRIOUSE moved that the Petition be pthattd. He said that he had institnted inquiry into the truth ut the allegations, and lie had reason to believe that they dill not contain a tissue of falsehood. He had reason to l O that the facts were under, rather than over stated. It was said that eightei ii persons had stiffeied ; he belie) . .1 it would be found that the number lt 46 Usti ty-Gvc. Pc. Caton ordered to he printed. Mr. DH01T.1.1.1.: presebted a Pt tition flown Pir ??? i?? - hats), most minieson.ily signed, etimplainisibg ul the doe. tresses of trade, the lion. Member otoerviLg that the Petition will merited the attention of the I tolthe. Mi.Hßot:(;ll \ here testimony t.) Ve!,l.V.tt.tibUif . • ..