The National Register. — London, England, 1816-03-03 00:00:00

and the game had certainly turned to their favour.-- -( hair. hear. )--He deprecated the erection of barracks, and stated the opinion of she great Lord Chatham, " that when a barrack we built in Etat end, adieu to the liberties of the country.' weee now i t the midst of barracks, and soriatinded by dis- Vess. He rep c :Led Country Gentlemen to ;wiseacre in op posing the tax. Lord EIRRINGTON regretted dins c Right Hut Gentleman bast not intimated a wish to del the consideration et' the tax. He strongly recommended the Country Gesitletmin to smite in noposing the tax, which was , $) Bopp.. tan ettormaiss Military E•tahlaaiment, lie hoped the Noble Lord had not imbibed a ty British jealousies of the triliairy nations on the Continent whoa he was there; for a military spirit was the bane and the curse of Europe. Mr. Pu ENTON repeated his former st aements of the distresses of the country, of which he could read the House a hisairy. He denominated the Chancellor of the Exchequer a puny, miscalcsdating person; and said, he could be content to go down the stream of time, if the (listen only affect. d himself; but when the lillOte country were involved, he could Out avoi Genoa, and expressing those feelings. Mr. Ws'N NE was sorry to find his Right Hon. Friend persist ing in not allowing the people time to express their opittion on this subject. Meetings would be held in every part of the tui tion is a few days, anti it was the duty of every gentleman oho bad coastitnents, to delay, if' possible, the disco/aim) on this important subject, till those constituents had had time to de alers their opinion. He also much regretted that such language as had been n•ed should have been adopted,by Ministers, as— " Ignorant impaticoce of taxation ;"—" exagge rated state ments," aaa Were these the proper terms to be used towards the people who. for 12 years, had borne their but-them with unexampled patience:-Such language as this tended only to destroy the confidence of the people in their Representatives. Mr. Rose thought the present discussion on the Property-tax was premature. It was impossible to jndge of the propriety of tie tax till the necessity for it was shown ; and if it should be found on montiry that the money was necessary, be was con vinced no tax could be proposed which would press so fairly and equally upon the public as this would.- -'Near, hear.)—ile should like to hear those gentlemen who call so lousily Mae, hear, state what taxes they would propose, inlien of this, which would not press harder on the middling class of people. lie wished gentlemen would stiffer this tax to have a fair and coo! discussion. Mr. I'omm:siva agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman. A cool dismission of the tax was what be wanted. With respect to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, it staoned to have only tulle subject, tind that was, to terrify the people, by sa y ing. ' to them, do not petition against the Property ' lax; for if that tax is repealed, the fruitful mind of the Chancellor of the Ex- carpier will discover sonic other ttx instead, which will be ' ten-told more borthensome to you. This was an entirely new way of addressing the Representatives of the People, and through them the People themselves. Mr. BROUGHAM felt snore than ever convinced of the neces sity of delay in bringing forward this measure. The Right Hots. Gentleman who had jnst sat dawn had said nothing less than this--at present you feel only the little finger of the Chan cellor of the Excises's:eta but soon you shall feel the weight of his whole hand. fitter such a declaration, was it not fitting the people should have time to caress their opinions. Mr. H. ADDING:ION vindicated the Chancellor of the Es chequer from the charge of precquitanry on this occasion. (In the bust day of the Sessions, and several times since. his Right • Hon. Friend had declared his intention of proposing a con tinuation of the Property-tax. A month hail siuce elapsed, during the whok: of which time there had been every oppor tunity of the people'', presenting their Petitions. With respect To his Right Hon. FI lend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the House most feel that he, of all men, must most anxiously look forward to and desire a reduction of the taxes. Mr. Fe EE MA scree vat , persuaded there was not a single Gen- demon in the house, except lurked the Right lion. Gentleman and his Friends, who, wheu he asked, last soar, for the Pro- I petty-tax for one year looter, understood it was to be con tinned as a Peace Tax. The Hon. Member then proceeded to condemn the Property-tax in strong terms ; and observed, that he ousted the House would now withhold it: as, if the Property-tax was not granted, the military establishment of the country trust 1w reduced. Under the present contemplated Peace Establishment no greater saving than Aix millions an nually would b. made. He would ask if this was a fit return ta the people for all the sacrifices they had made for 20 years past Lord BINNING did not recollect any pledge having been given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on proposing the continuation of the Property-tax last year, that it shoeld con tinue 'only during the war; indeed, the circumstances under which its continuance was proposed, rendered the giving such a pledge impossible.—'ith respect to any attempt on the part of Ministers to stifle the public voice, a crime which had been imputed to them, it was almost unnecessary to offer a word in answer to a charge so absurd. Mr. Ban iNO was perfectly aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had declared his opinion on the Property-tax over and over again ; and all he (Mr. B.) wanted was, that this peo ple should house au opportunity of declaring their opinion once. The Noble Lord who spoke last, and a Right Hon. Gentleman, who spo'se before him (Mr. Rose% had said, that if it should be found the proposed establishment was necessary, then money must be had ; ana if the Property-tax was repealed, sonic other must be imposed which might be found mare oppressive. He (Mr. Baring) would render this unnecessary, by obliging the Right Hun. Gentleman to reduce the estalslisliment. This could ouly be done, it appeared, by putting it out of the power of Ministers to provide for its support. Once reduce the Establish meat; and the necessity for the tax, the only argument which could be adduced in its favour would be "done away. The House had been told of the wealth and prosperity of the coun try : had the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Noble Lord, and his f tends, travelled the country lately? If they had, they would hose seen the dift rence. Nu, he l'OrgOt they might probably base travelled ; but if they had, their travels were probuhly coufined to the read between Loudon and Brighton, and this rout perhaps was all mirth, joy, and festivity. Mr. WALLACE defended the Tax, and observed, that no re duction (amid by possibility be made in our proposed Establish ment to an amount exceeding 000,0001, and therefore the In come-tax would still be necessary. Sir J. M AtAINTOSIt contended, that almost every county in the kingdom was called on, and in seven or 8 days would meet, to express thou opinion mu the Prapertyaax. But the Right lion. Gentleman now wanted to force the House into a consi deration of this subject on Friday next, behore these °pintoes could possible reach the House ; aad thus, by pledging the House to a cettain extent, put a stop to die petitions being r ec eived at all : but, by adopting this course, the Right lion. Gentleman would deprive the people of our of their dearest . birthrights. Afte: o few words from Mr. PnE.STON,the Petition was read. TIIE NATIONAL RP.GISTEIt. ARMY ESTIMATE.S. The adjourned debate on the Army Estimates was then re sumed. Mr. J. P. GRANT considered the percent question as one 1 , 1 the greatest importance which could possibly come before the House. Gentlemen were now called on to vote that which, it they agreed to, would be to give their sanction to an attempt to int millet. a Military Goveniment into this country in the place of our present Constitution. He, tile one, could ne.cr agree that there WAS n necessity for our maintaining a standing arm), during a time of profound peace, of 00,000 men. 'There never had been, ou any former occasion, a Peace Establishment of more than 50,040 men ; and be could not now look without alarm at an attempt to inerease it threefold. He had the great est confidence and the highest opiaion of the honour of the Officers who commanded this army; but he could not consent to put the liherties of the country in the power of any class of men or Ministers whatever. If the votes now asked were agreed to, it would form a precedent for keeping up such an armed fiIITP as would 'Toiler the. Crown independent of any contronl; and the House of Cm 1111 l ons might, at no very dis tant period, find itself the Representative Body of a people free only in name. Air. Yonne explained. Mr. limit NSON said, the present question was not whether we should have an establishment or not, but how far, in a con stitutional view, we might go. Gentlemen were very partial to drawing comparisons between the present estimates and those of 1791, %%idiom considering that the establishments of that year were the establishments of a year after seven years of peace. And further, Gentlemen always wished to take the present proposed establishment OS a permanent peace establish ment, which it by 'uo twans was. He was convinced that when the subject should have been fairly discussed, the people of England, who, w hen left to themselves, always thought right, would also determine in favour of the proposed Establishment. With respect te endangering the Constitution, or the free dom of the conntry, he had as high a value fur these as any man could have. le believed it was ow in to their being so free that v e were so great a people, and thought it was only by our continuing free that we timid eontinue great. He did not consider that our freedom would be at till endangered by agree ing to the estimates now before the House; and feeling that they Here necessary for the honour and interests of the coun try, he would give them his conscientious support. Alr. FItEEMANTLe folllll.l Cillied Upoll to Oppose these Estimates, both on the ground of constitutional danger and expense. lie contended that our rich colonies ought to sup port the whole or part el their establishments. Since the com mencement of the war, the people had paid, in direct taxation, 1033 ; and together, directly or indirectly, 1750 mill lions. Sltrely. After such sacrifices, the House should pause before they hard on the peoplz a peace expenditure of nearly seventy millions u year. Lord BINNING thonp,ht the nignments of the lion. Gentleman called strongly Obi the House to go into the Committee, in which it might toe shown whether the (con sinical arrangements he had recommended were practicable or not. In.tcari of this being a scheme to throw on us the traounels of a military despo tism, he contended that, in a Committee it would be shown, that the establishment proposed was necessary for the tnainte teuanee of our liberties. Sir R. tikRUN said, no one could argue that a standing army to some amount should not be kept up, hut there was a great difference between a standing army of aS,nOO men and one of 130,000. it would he impossible to keep up these establish ments without draining the country so as to reduce us to a state of national bankruptcy. If we must have foreign alliances, let theta be made on the principles of civil liberty, and not to main. lain a parcel of despots on their thrones. Since the batik of IVaterloo, our union with the despots (with the Duke of Wel lington for their High Constable. and the Noble Lord as their Gentleman Usher) was not for the benefit of the people. That union timid never be against any King except such an one as the King of Saxony; it would never be against the beloved Ft:Mitt:mit These Sovereigns allowed their armies to he paid by us —they had &leaded themselves and attacked their mor tal enemy, at our expense. They charged 111. 2s. for evily man, dead or alive, whom they brought to our assistance, or rather to their own. All loans made by us to them were quite forgotten. He supposed they would not be dunned by a nation of shopkeepers, though at the point of bankruptcy. They were our most magnanimous and rapacious lough.) Mr. Ptah*: contended, that if he had to address a House composed of Irish members, he could easily chew that the civil power in Ireland was at present inadequate to the maintenance of tranquillity there, and that 23,000 men were absolutely ne cessary fur that purpose. But as an Hon. and Learned Gen tleman (Brougham) said last night, that England was not Ger many: so let Gentlemen remember that England was not Ireland; and therebtre, when legislating for Ireland, let them nut think they were doing so for England. In Ireland they had not that inestimable blessing—a resident gentry ; and they had an encreaing population, without means of employment. A military force was necessary for the usual military duties; in aid of the civil power; and to keep dowu that grievous bane to Ireland—illicit db.tillation. He was not more partial than others to the employment of the military for maintaining the civil peace ; but it was better that by the army the midnight incendiary and murderer should be apprehended, than dint they should be suffered to escape. 'the loyal and industrious peasant deserved protection; and unless it were also afforded to the country gentleman, they would not reside on their estates. Mr. W. WVSNE said, that if the tremendous picture drawn by the Right Hon. Gentleman was correct, it surely, at leant, should be substantiated by ample enquiry ; and it was the duty of the House to use every effort to remedy suck alarming et But he was not sure whether the employment of the military force un all civil prucesses would not tend still more to weaken the respect entertained in Ireland for the laws. (In the stub ject of going into the Committee on the Estimates, he conteod ed that it would be infinitely more constitutional to vote a sum fur the payment of the army in France, and that the stun to be paid by Franey for the maintenance of that allay should be lodged in the Treasury under the coutroul of Parliament. On this ground, if the mot' for going into the Committee should succeed, lie should feel it his duty to more, that if it be no inetruetion to the Committee to provide a aunt for the pay of the army in France. He felt ito apprehension Irmo the power of France, crippled as it was ; but he apprehended danger from the military spirit which was growing in the coun try .—Thirty years ago there were 110 soldiers stationed at the British .luseurei or the Royal Academe, but now there were; and, besides, the passages through St. James's were stopped by soldiers, hi lueaeli of the Privileges of the Mouse, even to Members, by an authority which he was disposed to question; and he hoped smite one would bring the subject forward, to know by what authority the Exteutit e Government had order ed those passages to be stopped. Sir .1. NEMPUItT agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Peek) that a LE4,I force than what was sought for Ireland, MARCH :I. ao i dd b impolitic at present. not he wished that pi rntrocid, and not temporary remedies, should be found for the evils on. der which Ireland laboured., Such remedies could folly b e found in the Report of a Committee appointed to inrynire into the real state of Ireland. Lord FOLK-ATONE moved an adjournment, to which Mr. Van nittart agreed: anti at Two o'Cloek the Debate was adjourned till the next dav . W run Est) IN, FEB. 28. Petitions from the Borough o f from duce of the Iliindreils of Stith . )lk, from Armidel, and from FLli:shire, were presented against the Property Tax. Mr. Jos/Es said, the people of this country had shewn that spirit of nationality which distinguished them above all others by patiently bearing the burdens of taxation when they MR , / how absolutely necessary they were for insuring success to the great contest in which we had been engaged : but It was on. ateful to weigh them down and sink them to the earth when peace had again promised her long sought blessings. Serjeant Onshow protested against the adoption of the Pro perty Tax in time of peace ; and he hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would himself see the impropriety of pressing upon the people what they seemed neither willing nor able to endure. Sir K. HERON stated his reasons for having, on a former oc casion, voted for the tax, and why he should in the present ses sion decidedly oppose it. The Hon. L. Mantis presentee' a Petition from York, and Mr. Cone one from Brandon, in S u flidl•, and front Swathe:la, in Norfolk, against the Property Tax. Sir F. Hunt:ls:TT brunch! op Is Petition from the town of Monmouth against the Property Tux. The Petition, he be lieved, complained not only of the want of faith in Parliament, and the gross violation of their pledge in endeavouring 14 per petuate a measure which was scarcely tolerable in the moat dreadful warfare, nut which was never to be bolos. by a iree people in a period of thinquillity ; but of the pensions which had been granted ,a) lavishly by NliniVerial influence, and those sinecure places which were given to men who hail dune no thing in the service of their country.--Ordered to be laid on the table. Mr. P.Monne brought up a Petition from Coventry against the Propotty-tax. The Hon Member reminded this House of what he had said in the course of the last Session, that he would not contribute, and he should always advise his constituent• and the country not to contribute, one shilling towards the establishment of the Bourbons on the throne of France, lie said, that great as this petition stated the distress at Coveutry to be, it stated not a tenth part of the sufferings. The House would be shocked to hear, Brit the pittince afforded by a work-house, with all its disadvantages, '0 far excelled what was to be had by the lower classes of the people without it, that interest was frequently exerted to be permitted to share it. Mr. BU TTERWORTH did not think that the tax wetild have been so oppressive, had it not been levied upon income as well as property. Whatever Ministers mixht say, the country was in a state of unprecedented distress that euald only be fully known by those who saw it. The trade of Coventry was so greatl)• depressed, that some houses which used to pay 4001. or 5001. a week to workmen, now paid only 401. or The lion. Mr. Ls vrt rrna beliesed, that the Hight lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had no correct idea of the distressed state of the country. Proofs id* it had been laid be fore the 'louse, hol%ever; and more proms would e% try day come before the Parliament. Mr. Lnessixnr said, that to a Property-tax, properly gra duated and apportioned, he would give every support; tint to a Property-tax ; founded on such principles as at present pro posed, he could not consent. Mr. THOMPSON said, that the fanners were in a most dis tressed trondition. lie knew farmers who had been some time ago worth two, three, and four thousand pounds, and who were now in an absolute state of bankreptcy ; yet were paying the some Property-tax still as they had been in their must prosper ous daps. Mr. B. Sit .%w hoped that his Majesty's Ministers would listen to the complaints of the House and id the nation. He expo sed the injustice of the tat, and thought a loan might be advan tagemsly resorted to instead. The Amu: tire. if cat tied, he was convinced,w ould prose most detrimental even to Ministt rs; and for their own interests he recommended them to listen to the general sentiment prevailing within noel without the lime. Mr. BARCLAY said, all means of retrenchment ought tint to be tried ; and, before monuments were proposed to be meted to our armies, it ought to be considei cd whether the Property Tax would not be a monument of our distresses Although he objected to the continuance of this offensive measnre, he Amid nut think it necessary to vote against the sillily Estimates. Mr. BROLI3IIA 51 implored all the Members who opposed the proposed renewal not to allow the Chancellor to bring in his Bill. If they divided their fortes, and allowed the tax to go on at all, with the view of making modilicotions in it, the Chan cellor of the Exchequer would take them in detail, and carry through his edition of the tax. Mr:Founts Ftuted, that he had been last autumn in various parts of Scotland ; and that, both what he heard and saw, and the representations made to him, he could assure the House that in that country the Property Tax um universal•. ciecra ted.--Mr. Ponsonliy, Lord Milton, and Mr. Martin, each spoke shortly against the tax. Mr: J. — Smmi presented a Petition from the town and county of Nottingham against the Pi overtv Tax, and the proposed Peace Establishment. He supported the prayer of the Peti tion at considerable lngth. Mr. PHILLIPS c%prs.”ed his surprise that none of the Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House had yet spoken in'ta vour of the measure. He denied that the state of the trade of the country Hes :0 flourishing as described in the Speech from the Throne. Mr. FR EEM ANTLE thought it was initiossil the Chancellor of the EXCIIEVICr 14110111 d persist in it; tor, in point of fact, be could not derive the revenue from it which lie expected, and the impost would fail of its effect. _ _ Lora Comrrori WM in f4vour of the Property Tnx, because he believed that if the Chaucellor of the Exehegner Is ere forced to abandon it,hc would propose much %%OM tux's : not through any disposition to oppress the people, bnt because hi. could not help it. Thorn was no other tax that would produce an eijuad revenue. Mr. POMONJIY congratulated the Noble Lord on the courage which he hmi displa”il on this occasion. lie had put himself forwent in the most manly mud dignified manner thr his friends, the Ministers, when not •ue of them would soy any thing for thvinstiv es. All the Petitions presented were ordered to lie on the table. VIL 1..15T ARREARS. Mr. TIVINEIT asked Wally arrears or the Civil List remained undischarged. VANSITTART Maid, that certain accounts of the Civil Li,t. in which an anuar hail (Rem red, µmild hbortly lie laid the House; and thee he ahould submit a measure fur the better