Star. — London, England, 1803-12-06 00:00:00

Dirty-kin, and they proceeded to &tric e As for . the Cattle, and the danger of its falling, why by the account of the chief confpirator himfa f, his force did net amount to more than 8o or go men, whin he turned op one of the lanes leading towards the country, pulled off his green coat, and left the rabble to make the bell they could of it. Govern ment certainly had not detailed information of every particular, but Government knew of an intended riling, and the whole of this mighty rebellion was put down, almoll within an hour after its appear ance. It is true, the Lord Chief Juftice was maffa cred ; but is that to be charged to the Government of Ireland? That unhappy Magiftrate had beard of matters, which rendered his pretence in town very deferable, and it might have been more prudent to have entered the Capital by tom e o th er rou t e . B ut no candid man will, I am fore, make the much la mented death of Lord Kilwarden the fubjea of Ilante on his MajeftY's .. erovernment in Ireland. The Honourable Member Rates it to be contrary to Come precedents of former cafes to pats this Aft without fume other defcription of information. If Co, he is at liberty to move for a Secret Committee. But, Sir, in the year I Sol, a fimilar meafure was paired without fuch a proceeding. The Hon. Gentleman will not give his negative to the Bill, and I thould with to know whether, in demanding additional in formation to the fats of which he is in poffeffion, and which are, I am certain, fully fofficient to juftify this meafure to every candid and confidering mind, he wants any fort of information that might lead him to negative the Bill ? The condo& of the frith Go veroment, at large, has been fuch as I feel no diffi culty in defending. That country has not been neglected nor her intereft deferted. She had a peace eftablifhment of as,ooo regular troops. 1 have en deavoured to anfwer fuch of the Hon. Members ob *lions as Teemed to me to have moll connection with the fubjea ; and I have heard nothing from him, which, in my opinion, should induce any Gentleman to be diffatisfied with the grounds on which his Ma jelly's Minift , -rs have introduced this Bill." Colonel Caawruao obferved, that Minifters here teemed to agree with the Irifh Attorney General in their defcription of the infurredion in Dublin. They call it a contemptible riot. If that be a true defig aation of it, then, whence arifes the neceffity of re• forting to fo very important and ferious a meafure as the introduction of Martial Law? The Secretary of State affured the Houfe, that there was no want of vigilance. Good GOD ! why, the Lord Lieute nant was fo fecure, that he went to his country feat, and there had a dinner, at which the Chancellor made one of the party ; but poor Lord Ktlwarden, it hems. knew nothing in consequence of all this vigi. lance, and fo fell a vtaim on his return to his duty in town. The frith Government knew nothing of the depot, nothing of the particulars of the rebellion; but they knew very well how to calculate the appre hended danger, and how to ward of all its ill aids. This they knew even to the number of cartridges that would be needful; and accordingly the troops bad only three rounds each ; and it was for Come time before the yeomanry could have any ammuni tion whatever. Ten men per company of this gar silo& of Dublin were, at this critical tirnes allowed to go out every day to work. Colonel Craufurd then proceeded to obferve. that there was one cir cumfiance which he particularly lamented, and that was, that in all the difetrifions upon the affairs of Ireland, no feeble expreffions, no faint ray of hope, ao promife, that on Tome future occafion (if the prefent be really an inconvenient time) ever was given by Minifters. that the fyftem of Irifh affairs fhould be reconfidered, and fomething done fubflan tially to better the condition of the people, and make thorn fatisfied, not merely on a comparifon of their own fituation with that of the oppreffed people of France, or thole who fall under the power of Bona parte, but fatisfied on a comparifon of their condi. Lion with that of the people of England itfelf. Mr. Fasaicis could not but lament the ignorance the Houfe was kept in as to the real Rate of Ireland. Miaifters had adduced no evidence whatever, of the true fituation of that country. He knew nothing of the (late of Ireland documentally ; all his informa tion was gathered from his Majefty's Speech. It appeared that information was ill founded, if inked ofconciliatory meafures being adopted, as was (tot ed, the very reverie was the cafe. Neceffity had been alledged as the cogent reafon for paffmg this Bill.— Neceffity, indeed, fuperfeded every thing, but it was incumbent on Minifters to (hew that fuch neceffity did exit; if that was not done, numerous would be the objections to this meafurt ; but there was one which outweighed every other. It was telling the Cor,ful of France, that Ireland is ready to receive him a that nothing could flop the progrefs of rebel lion but this Bill. He would not promulgate inch a fad. He would not (hew an enemy we were vul nerable. He concluded with oliferving, that it was the paramount duty of his Majefty's Minitlers to af ford tome information to the Houfe, not merely in belief, but on fpecific grounds. Lord Cas aaaaa *cis contended, that there was nothing from which negligence could be charged againft the Government of Ireland. He %tithed that. inflead of making charges by way of a fide wind, the whole conduct of Goveinmens might be taken into confideration, and fair difciiffed, as one com bined fyftem ; and then he (hould be ready to meet any charge thus fairly made. But he did not with that particular fads thould go abroad into the world as admitted, becaufe they had not been fpecifically anfwered. With refpeß to the information Paid to be required on the preterit occafion, it would be a mat ter of great difficulty and embarraffinent, if fecret committees were to be appointed for the purpofe of making reports on which to ground the meafure be. tore the Houle. Betides. fiats might be difclofed which it would be proper to conceal. He would lay it down a principle to the Houfe, which, he hoped, the Hon. Gentleman who opened the debate would not Jens. It was this—that the country may be in fuels a fituation, as to render it expedient, on a pre cautionary principle, to arm the Government with certain powers, which they might exercile at their difcretion. The granting of foil) powers would be advantageous to the public. He admitted, that the neceffity of the prefent nicotine was now weaker than it bad been at the time the Britith Parliament was firit called on to pais fuch another, bccaufc there were infiltrations. and remnants of rebellion then in the country. But it mull be confidered, that there was ao period in which the enemy had Blade tub eztenfive preparations, and laid belt deep projeets for the invalion and contineft of thefe dominions, as at the prefent time, and that iircutnflance was alone fufficient to afford ground for a precautionary mea lure like this, in a place where the enemy had calcu laced fo much. However great the returning loyalty of Ireland might be, it was not to be fuppofed that many perfuns in that country would as yet be com• pletely purged of their difpolition to rebel. The ' rebellious projeas fo lately manifelled there, and thefe, combined with the views of the enemy, were fufficient to induce Parliament to arm the Govern• ment with the means of providing for the public &fay. The power of controul which Parliament had over the Government of Ireland, would be a futhcient fccurity to the fubjeet againit the abufe of power ; and he law no danger in granting fuch a power on a precautionary principle. An Hon. Member had Rated, that there was not ammunition enough for the ufe of the troops on the night of the infurreetion. The faa was, that all the ammunition was removed, as it Lhould have been, from that place to the artillery (totes at ifland Bridge, where the magazines were kept. And as to the foldiers having got leave to go and work at the harveß, the fart was, that this order had paired from England as a matter of courfe, fuch liberty being ufually granted at that time of the year. The order having come to Ireland in the common routine of military orders, the fol. diers were told they might have that liberty. It was merely accidental, and not the refult of any order or permifTion from the Commander in Chief in Dublin. But the moment he heard of it, it was immediately countermanded. Therefore that cireumaance could form no ground of charge againft the Government of Ireland. He denied that this meafure would hold out any encouragement to the enemy to attack 11!. On the contrary, the enemy would calculate more on our increafed preparation, an would be Rill more intimidated by every meafure that went to nerve the arm of Government, and enable it to oppofe every difpofition towards that rebellion that would promote his caufe. He was confident that this meafure would above all others attach the people of Ireland to the Government and to the Parliament. It would prove to them that their intereft could &fely be nullified to the Legiflature of this country, under whole pro. tetlion they looked forward with the moil flatteting profpeEts of future happinefs. They would now be convinced that the Legiflature had done its duty by them. Colonel CRAWFORD, in explanation, raid. that wherever the ammunition belonging to Dublin had been depofited, it was a certain fad that the troops had but three rounds of ball cartridges, and that the yeomanry were feveral hours without any at all. Mr. Pots Paid, be found hirnfelf under the abfo. lute neceffity of requefting the attention of the Houfe, till he Paid a few words, which the fituation he then held in Dublin, impofed on him as an imperious duty. It was necellary that be (hould controvert the Bate• meat made by the Hon. Officer who (poke lad, and who had endeavoured greatly to miflead the Houfe, refpeaing the ammunition given to the military, on the 23d day of July, in confequence, he had no doubt, of that Hon. Officer having been himfelf milled and deceived. The fad was, he quid afore the Houfe, upon his honour, aU the troops were ferved with fizzy rounds each. There were in the barracks 8000 rounds of ammunition. to ferve thefe regiments that origi nally applied for them ; and on the fir. requilition, three tumbrels were fent ; and, in the (pace of two hours, there was more ammunition than was de manded by all the troops, during the whole period of the infurreaion. He fhould not have thought of troubling the Houfe at all on the fubjea, had he not been on duty in the fervice of the ordnance, and afterwards received the ord e r s o f th e M a il er General, to .nake particular enquiries into the fubjea, as mif reprefentation had gone abroad; and as he was alio on duty, fubfequent to that time, he had tho roughly inveftigated the matter, and would effort the Houfe, that what he had hated on the fubjea was ezaaly the faa. Colonel CRAWFORD appealed to the Houfe, whe ther it was not highly unparliamentary in any Hon. Member to aecufe another, who had merely Bated the information he had received, of endeavouring to milked the Houfe . - Mr. PoLa Pa id, that when he mentioned the Ho. nourable Officer having endeavoured to deceive the Houfe, he begged the Houfe to recoiled. that he had added, in coufrquenee of the Hon. Officer's being himself rallied. Mr. WINDHAM could not confider the information now afforded as a fuccefsful defence of the hint Go vernment, as it did not meet the charge. It was not raid that there was no powder here or there, but that it was not where it ought to be—in cartouches of the foldiers. One of thefe obfervations which came lel upon his ear, but not leaf! upon his mind, was the avowal made by a Noble Lord (Caftlereagh) of the alfuranee he gave the people of Ireland, that the United Parliament would not be deficient in vigour; and in palling the prefent Bill, that Honfe would molt completely make good that affurance. To fur pend the Habeas Corpus, and had martial law with- out a tingle reafon given for it, was as much vigour, and perhaps a littic more than could have been ex petted. There two rneafnres, or one of them, would, at any other time. be thought a very grave proceed ing ; but by this we fioppeo the Conflitution as eafily on the people of Ireland, as effedually and as fpeedily as the machinery of a mill would be flopped by a flight motion of the hand ; and this we were doing without any caufe aligned for it. He was net obliged to thew that this was wrong. any more than the pro polers of the 'mature had given any reafon to fbew that it a as right. If th ere were rea fi-ns, he conferred he did not fee them, and was in the fittiation of a man who Paid, a dancer turned round fo quick that he could not fee the motion ; to which another re plied, that it was not wonderful, for the dancer did not turn round at all. As to the notoriety of the thing, it. might have been fufficient for the Irifh Parliament, .who few the rebellion at their door; but the late dillurbance was called by the lrifh At-' toroey General a contemptible riot. Let the Mini tiers tell us fairly. tell us whether it was a contemptible riot—an accidental effervefcence, or a formidable re bellion; for at prefent they (poke like a Student at the Univerfity, who being :sated by his tutor whether the fun turned round theearth, or the eat th round the fun; replied--w fometimes one and fometimes the other." It was anted to be a little tumult, and a little martial law was foppofed to be the bell remedy for it. Was j • the eonfpiracytextenfive and deeptonted in the eoun-I try ? Had it thole ramifications that were fpoken of this day ? By their eontradistnry accounts, it fhould fometimes appear to be of a gigantic magnitude, that would reach the (hies ; and at others, it would be to ' drop like fuch a pigmy creature, that one could remedy perceive it. It might be right to reflect low fuch a proceeding mull operate on the feelings of the frill' people. It could fearcely be expected that all this facility of putting them out of the proteCtion of the law, was much calculated to conciliate and reconcile to all the bleflings of the Britith Coultitu tion. In adopting this they could hardly think that we dealt with them like brothers ; and no man would fay,that wewereaCling towards them as wewould act to. wards ourfelves. An arbitrarygovernment may not be pofitively good nor pofitively bad, but unquellionably was the moll efficacious. A Government, however, which would have recourfe to arbitrary proceedings, in order to be the more effectual on ordinary occa lions, could be entitled to no confidence at all ; and in this inttance the meafure mull be bad in its ten. dency, if the Rate of Ireland did not make it abfo. tritely and indifpenfibly necetfary. If otherwife, it mutt be in itfelf both criminal and mifchievous. Up to the 23d of July, the Minifters Paid Ireland was fafe, and in a (late of tranquillity and improvement. They would not have propofed martial law then, and at the fame moment broke out the rebellion, which induced them to recur to the fame meafures a before, under circumilances in which I bore a &Ire: Que ipfe miferirna vidi, et quorum rare magua fut." —After the 23d of Jcly, the man would be deemed little better than a traitor who fhould hefitate to in- Ilia Martial Law ; and yet it was after wards defe:ibed at a contemptible riot. By Mat tial Law now, they put all the evidence out of Court. He could not fe parate the meafure from the charge againft the Co. vernment, which formed the very elleoce of it ; tho' it would, in truth, be a very commodious way of narrowing any diffention. That Government was certainly put into a very aukward predicament. They were either furprifed, not knowing of the con (piracy, or, knowing it, they were criminally negli gent. They could now take no fide without giving their advert cries great advantage. If they fuffered it to go fo far that the capital was within an ace of being taken, they were guilty of a criminal fupinenefs. The Lord Lieutenant was off hit poll, the Military Commanders had no inftruitions, and the Lord Mayor was ignorant of any confpiracy. The p ow d er was carried through the mid( of the mob, who, if they knew of it, would feize it, and murder the con dodoes. The Government, therefore, were returned for two Boroughs, Neste& and Surprize, and ehofe to make their elation for the latter ; though the word Surprise was, for the prefent, (truck out, of the miniflerial vocabulary. This meafure was only juf tified on the antecedent fart, that there was a rebel lion, which, if once admitted, would be a ground for any thing. As to arguments, he mutt ray he had none ; and, though he may find himfelf obliged to acquiefee in this proceeding, yet, from regard to de cency, to esampk, to policy, to juflice, and to the dignity of Parliament, he thought more information fhould have been afforded. The CHAIICELLOIt of the Excir tura raid, he would never follow the example of others who preceded him, and difmifi from this queftion altogether the condo& of the frith Government on the 23d of July, as it mould be made a diftina queßion ; and he owed it to that Government to fay, that on enquir ing, its conduit would be found delaying of every praife ; and that it'will appear the preparations were adequate to the information received refpedfing the confpiracy. Great firers was laid on the Lord Lieu tenant's going to the Park : it was affected that the military did not receive inftruetions, and that the Civil Magiflrates had received no communication. As to the la% thi Civil Magiftrate, a very alive and well known Officer, did receive a communica tion in the morning, and the different Police Officers were inftrufted how to proceed. Had the Lord Lieutenant remained in Dublin that evening, contra ry to his cuftom, it would have communicated con- Rernation and alarm, which would have fpread all over the country, and probably have been produaive of molt ferious mifchief, by diminifhing the compe- tency of the Government to refift, and at once reprefs the confpiracy. This, however, had no poffible connection with the prefent queftion, with the policy and propriety of trying rebels by Courts Martial, and whether the Houle had evidence enough to proceed upon ? It was true that it was not founded on the Report of a previous Committee, but that was not unprecedented; for in the firft Selnon of the United Parliament, in taw, when the Gentlemen oppofite is him were thensfelves Members of the Govern meat, there very nseafom were adopted, without even a communication or meffage on the fubjeFt ; but they did not then ten us that it was uneonflitutional. Here we had the King's Meffage, the Lord Lieute nant's proclamation, and all the evidence given on the trials of the rebels. If the refpedable Attor ney General of Ireland defcribed it, on a trial, as a contemptible riot, that did not exclude all refe rence to the teßimony of the witneffes. The Chief Jolliet, who was at the head of the Commiflion for the trial of perfons accufed of treafon at the Old Bailey, defcribed the parties to be without numbers, without means, and without influence; but that did not exclude the evidence of the confpiracy. His Majefly in his Speech alfo Rated, that the leaders of the rebellion had been brought to juftice, and that tranquillity was rellored ; but that was different from affecting that the exiftence of thefe powers had no there in tailoring it. His Majefty farther Rated, that the people form a comparifon of their date with that of other people :—but it was not to be inlet-led from that we had no need of precaution, and that there was not yet remaining in Ireland a greater body of difcontent than prevailed in this country when the Habeas Corpus was fofpended. The Right Honour. able Gentleman proceeded to contend, that it was not in the mere circumftance of the confpiracy in Ireland that he founded the prefent meafure ; al though it would in itfelf be fofficient to May him in bringing it forward. He took the proceedings of the a3d as an indication of what might again occur, if proper tneafum of precaution were not -Adopted Thofe who knew the perfons who compofed the pre fent Government of Ireland, would readily believe that nothing lhort of the Itroni,eit neceffity would induce them to felon to the renewal of inch a retric 'ion on th: ordinary laws of that country. Knowing that preparations were making by the enemy tar the. invation of that part of the Uo:!ed Kingdom, end coupling the circumstance of i,,vpfs with the (.rte of the public min.], ltc fubmitted there. was ample foundation for . law of this nature, which was only precautionary. With regard to the necel ... LiAt the 4r• fity of pt a•eious enquiry, he e .l 1 gumenc of notoriety was fufficient for the Houfe to ad upon. If we looked to the pradice of our ancef tors, we flineild find that notoriety had, in repeated inftances, been the balls upon which the renewal of the fufpenlion of the Habeas Corpus Ad had been recommended. He agreed there *wild be no limit to the confidence to be reputed in a Secret Commii6 tee ; but the difficult would be in laying before it• fuch materials :ts would enable it to prefent a Cecil fadory Report; and unlefs there was come fp , -citica- Lion, and not a ftatement in general terms, it would be impoMble for fuch a Report to be made.—He had no fcruple in laying, that the particulars, which wou'd alone enable a Committee to folunit a prope r Report to the• Houfe, could not he made pabtie, being attended with great, ferious, and impoitant difficulties. The queftion then was, whether the pound of notoriety, combined with etc "reparations of the enemy, was fufficient to atithorife adoption of this precautionary meafure ? He remarked, that the objedions to the prefent came eti;h peculiar ill grace from thofe who had not urged any argu ments againft thole mealur;:s of a limilar nai tire, which, during a . pet iod of ten rears, they hid been under the repeated neceCity of palling. It %VA% no flight argument in favour of the Bill, that thole Nlembers connetted with Ireland, who had Lill year Rated, as matter of feet, the amelioration of the fen timents of the people of Ireland, and the return of the generality of them to loyalty, had now confeffed their error, and acknowledged that fuch a meafure as this was neceffiii y for the tranquillity of that coon. try. He concluded by faying, that he was actuated by a confcientious conviction of the neceffity of the meafure, and he had heard no parliamentary reafon for a preliminary enquiry. Mr. WILSILRFORCE thought the neceinty for the prefent Bill was proved, and the Bill itfelf juftified by reference to the late rebellion. He conceived it not to be the charader of thofe who were at the head of the Government to a& for any unconftitutional extenfion of the executive power. The cirenmaance of the late rebellion, and the meditated invafion of 'retail,: calling upon the Houfe to ftrengthen the hands of Government. He raid, much had reached him which might be extremely proper to be made the fubjed of future inveftigation ; but he thought matters of fuch importance ought not to be taken up by the Houfe immediately. He truaed the period would arrive, when every one, difarming himfelf of party prejudice, would exert himf,:if to the utmoft for the benefit of Ireland. Sure he was, the wifdom, benevolence, and juftice of the Houfe, could never be direded to a Inure worthy objedt. He fruited the Houfe would not content itfelf with temporary ex. pedients, but proceed on a broad fyftem of policy, tending to make Ireland as free and happy as this Country. Dr. Lawataca was furprifed that a Gentleman who had expreffed fuch fentiments as thole of theta& fpeaker i fhould have given his a pp ro b at i on c f t h e prefent Bill. ft vas a meafure altogether unnecelfary, the prerogative of the Crown being quite fufficient for the extraordinary protedion of the country, fhould it be found neceffary to fufbend the operation of the Civil Laws. He believed Cris was the firß time a public meafure had been recommended on the ground of notoriety or inyifible neeeffity. He war of opinion, that Martial Law ought not to be endured in Ireland, unlefs Minifters couldrove it to be ie fuch a R State, that the Judges and Jurors could not attend the adminiftration of Civil Juftice without ti reafonable dread of afitaination. Upon the whole, he thought this an ill.advifed and impolitic naealure. General Lorry& obferved, that this was only a meafure of precaution ;—he knew that as long u Courts of Law could fit, this Bill would not be put in force, and it was under that impreffion he gawp his vote in its favour. The ATTOINBY GINSIAL raid, his Majelly's flitter: were urged to the adoption of this nieafuts folely by a conviaion of its neceflity, and not from a deftre to fuperfede the laws. Referring tx what had been the former opinion of the Honou• aSle Gentle man (Mr. Windham), he could not avoid comparing him to thole who were Paid to ch ange t h e i r mora y when they got to the other fide of the Cape of Good Hope. The fentiments of the Honourable Gentle. man had certainly very materially altered fince he had fat on the oppofite fide of the Houfe. He was of opinion. this Hottfe could not do a thing more dilltaartening to the people of Ireland than to hpa. rate without palling this bill. Mr. WINDHAM explained, by Paying, be did not oppofe the meafure as one which be thought utterly I unneceffary ; he was rather difpofed to admit it mi f Aht be neceffary; all he complaidd of was, that fu cient information had not been laid before tbp Houfe. Mr. Horcetasoa rote, in confequence of tome al lufion which had been made to him ; he felt hicofelf in the fituation of a difeonfolate parent, feated by the dead body of his deceafed child, accompanied by the doftor who had attended hint in his inners, and pre fcribed for his malady. He would exclaim to the phyfician s " Though one child has fallen a vifties to the malignity of the diforder, for Gon's fake do not abandon the reit of the family to its ravages." But he wifhetl not to dwell upon the ills which had M. mulated his unfortunate countrymen to rebellion.---. He whited not to rake up the Alm of our ancellors, or impeach their memory; but he would call on the wiLlom of an enlightened leziflation at this day to adopt fuch a fyftein of policy towards Ireland, as fhould put an end to the neceffity of 'matting, &thou after Seffion, rneafures of this nature. He was ready, under the prefent aford of affairs in Ireland. to ad mit the neceffity of the relent Bill; and be was equally ready to coincide in every meafure that could effectually arengthen the hands of his Majeily's Gca vernment, to put down, or prevent rebelliou s where the ordinary laws of the land were incompetent; but he wafted to appeal to the feelings of that Houti, and he conjured them to confider, that the people of Ireland were not circumftanced like the people of this country. They had heard it (aid, the difpolitiosts of the people of Ireland were marked by a growing attachment ; bur he conjured the Houle Dot to be deceived by that Raiment, into a belief that a se (yam of medusas was slut abfoltualy imam ~~i