Star. — London, England, 1803-12-03 00:00:00

I part n 4 .Ireland in which the opinion of that Hon. Gentleman would have confiderable weight. As to the queftion to which the Hon. Gentleman had al luded afterwards, he thought that a time of war was not the proper period for the ditcullion of it, or of any queftion tending to interfere with the conttitu \ tipn. He had felt it his duty to fay thus much, and concluded by giving his cordial fupport to the motion. Mr. HAWTHOLN fupporttd the motion; becaufe, from the obfervations which he had an opportunity of making during the fummer, he was convinced the matures propofed were neceffary for the fecurity of the country. It was of confiderable confequence to give firength to his Majefty's Government In Ireland, to enable them to meet and put down the efforts of treafott.ant' rebellion with vigour and effed. His Malady, ris gracious Speech from the Throne, had acquainted thelioute that the principal aftors in the late attociotis infurreftion had been brought to judice, and that the delnded multitude were returning to a eafe of their' duty ; it was, therefore, effential to give loch powers to Lis government in that country ts would enable them to maintain the tranquillity Co redored. Befides the manner in which the Irifla Government had ufed the extraordinary powers riven in the lad.Seilion, was the belt fecurity that the fame pawcrs &mild not be abufed in the prefent -fiance. N Gentleman he was lure, would objea ,tc .he motion of tit.: Right Hon. Secretary, if he tailed to tvind tic manner in which the tebellion was cow:need to its breaking out, the eircumdances of atrocity with which it was then carried on, the fanner in r•hich it was put down, and the effeft that Ow, Ire bora of it had on the public mind The 046 1 44 401 1148 iridi Government had been cbaradter- Wed by bearAnity and Mil/nets. Its great °Ned had tem to pal. aver the circumftarrees of former infur. reaidnatard attend the benefit of the ordinary coorte of justice to the guilty, and that too at a time when trailers hats reentnod from France, for the purpole of exciting 'rebellion in the country. He was, thert fuze, of tho.opision, that the propofed meafures were iteielfaryftw maintaining the public tranquillity. As '44.. the other topic which had been adverted to on the deft (AO tithe fetfion, as well as on the prefent occa- VIM, Ittihad - ever entertained but one, and only one opiniaitt, and that was, that fomething lhould be el:hat be did not confider this the proper time erering iato the queftion. Lord Tenets meant certainly to give his fupport an As motion, as Cie preamble of the bill which was pr poled to be revived dated, that it was neceffary, so - contain/Lice if rebellion in Ireland ; and he gave his Majt y'a Mini der' credit for being convinced of that neceffity ; he was ready to fupport it, under that impo. with his vote. With refpea to a declaration'ai.:ll had been made by an Hon. Gen tleman (Ge• . "..orr us ) that a time of war was not the procar p )t1 for dirculfing a queltion interfering with the C• • mint), he begged that Hon. Gentle. man. and the Houle, to muffle/4 that the great meerlinti of tit: Union had been difcuffed and carried isto etFat p< nding a war. Lord Aircw [zero Ilasticron could not help feel ing fume furprife that any doubt could exill as to the propriety of the time for improving the condition of fo important a member of the empire. He meant, however, to make only a few obfervations on the hub jell of the motion. To afcertain the fitnation of that part of the empire it was fcarcely meta:try to advert to the &tuition of its capital, in which every inhabi tant was obliged to place a lid of all the inmates of his houfe on his door.—ln loch circumltances there Could fcarcely a doubt &ft of the propriety of mak ing tome efforts to eliablifh the tranquillity of the country upon some folid and permanent grounds. It bad been Paid that this was not the proper time; but the Noble Lord would alk, what would be a better time P—Were we now going on well, or was the country well ? This was a crifis when the exertions of every individual in the empire were neceffary, for the defence and fecurity of the empire. He contended it was the molt proper time to refoet to meafures that would have the aid of removing every fource of complaint, and of uoiting every arm in the com mon caufe. His Lordftrip wished to be informed, whether his Majeßy's Minifters had any specific plan in contemplation for that purpofe ? There teemed to be but one fentiment in the Houle with rellsee to the neceffity of uniting heart and hand in the pretest ar. duous cr fis. He, therefore, again called upon his Majelly's Miniders to declare, whether they meant to bring forward any meafure but thofe which had hitherto been purfued in that country ? From every thin that had come to his knowledge on that fubjett, through perfons from local information acquainted with it, he thought a different fyltem indifpenfible, and he thought it the duty of his Majelly's Minifters to adopt it. If, however, they should think proper to abandon the interefis of that part of the United Kingdom ' he was of opinion that, in fuch a cafe, it would be perfealy competent to any individual in the Houfe to bring the queßion before Parliament. Mr. fluairouoits was ready to give his aftent to the motion for the farther continuance of the futpen fion of the Habeas Corpus Aft, but seabed that the ditcoifion of the propoied re.enatitment of the Martial Law Bill ()mold be poßponed till another period of the teflon, until a greater number of !rifts Members Should be *trembled. He Rated his difference of opi; aims with thole who condemn the fyttem which the prefent C;overntitent of Ireland purfued. Although he could mod Rrongly censure the fevere proceedings of a former administration of that country, he woe 1.1 not admit the 'Anion, that the conduft of the pre. fent Government was not well calculated to conci. hate the people. Confidently then with that objeft, he would recommend not to urge the adoption of Martial Law fo fuddenly, particularly as it did not appear receffally, for during the time it had already trifled, it had only in one inflance been aged upon, according to the Ratement of the Right Hon. Mover. He would therefore advife Minißers to put off this queftion, and that this impreffion be made upon the 'hinds of the people of Ireland, that Parliament and Government will always avoid herds meafures, unlefs when they are irrefißibly compelled by the occeffity of eircumßances to retort to them. Lord Carr cs &Leo a role to offer a few obfervations hi reply to the lea speaker. He was happy to find that the Hon. Gentleman had nothing to urge ageing the character of that, who were to be invetled with Pie difcretionary power panted by the Bill for con finoing the steed Martiallow in Ireland, under fuch circumflances as might be judged expedient. The Hon. Gentleman had, however, contended that inch a Lill had neva bus paled, eseept what Ikon proofs of its steaky were produced. For his own part he would venture to affert, and he would defy any gentleman to difprove his obfervation, that no meafure had fo materially conti ibuted to prevent the mifchief originating from the rebellion from extend• ing itfelf, as the very meafure which was now made the ground of objedinn. A great body of loyalty had exalted in Ireland during the period that one of the moll extenfive and molt malignant rebellions raged in that country which it was ever the fate of a Government to encounter. By the exertions of this affemblage of loyal fubjeds, tha rebellion had been fimpreffed, and the conflitution had been laved from deltrudion. He mull, however, be permitted to fay, that it was not till the meafure in quellion had been adopted that the loyal part of the community were able to feel and to employ their flrength. It was not till Government was armed with the extraor dinary powers with which the meafure veiled them, that rebellion was attacked in its prong holds and effedually fubdued. Thefe were the effeds of the meafure in putting an end to the rebellion of 1798, and the continuance of the meafure at different periods fence that rebellion, had operated confequences no lets beneficial. The late mad attempt at rebellion, (hewed how much improved the hate of the country was, and he had no difficulty in eferibing to the operation of the meafure to which the Honourable Member had objeled, that vall aug mentation of loyalty which had been obtained dur ing the interval which had taken place betwixt the rebellion of 1798 and the late attempt of a handful of deluded and delperate individuals. The experi ence of pall confequences was the ftrongeft induce ment to renew the meafure at the prefent moment. The rife that had been made of the meafure, was a wife reafon for again reforting to it. Though the Government rag veiled with extraordinary powers, there was no reafon to be apprehenfive that they would be wantonly employed. The circumflance of Government being veiled with thefe powers, was the means of enabling them to refort only to the civil tri bunals of the country. The civil tribunals, notwith (landing the exillence of thele powers, had been ap pealed to, and the refult had been equally honourable to the laws and to the individuals to whom the extra ordinary powers were delegated. This ought, in his opinion, to operate as an additional inducement to grant extraordinary powers, when it was afcertained that they were not in any inflance abufed, when dif cretioa was employed, not in fufpenclinp, but in en couraging the operation of ordinary tribunals of jut tice. The great principle which a wife Legillature wilbed to all upon, was a principle of precaution. Its objet was to prevent and not to pundit crimes after they were perpetrated. It might be argued, that there was at prefent nothing in the fituation of Ireland to jut. tify a meafitre which went to the fufpenlion of the or dinary privileges of the conflitittion. The recent at tempt at rebellion had not furely efcaped the notice of Gentlemen, and it could not in fairnefs be pretended that tranquillity could be fo loon reltored as to fupei fede the necellity of a meafure, the beneficial effeds of which had been fo fignally experienced. By the time ly interference of the legiflature, a great deal of de tailed mifery which had formerly afilided the loyal part of the community, had been avoided. For every ' man who was acquainted with the fituation of Ire land knew that Inch fcenes of detailed mifery could not have been prevented, lintel's Government had been armed with the powers adequate to the nature of the eircumltance► in which the country was placed. —On. the principle that it was wife on the felt ap pearance of the Lite rebellion to arm Government with thefe powers, he would contend that it was equally wife at the prefent moment. It would not be denied, that among thole deluded individuals who conftituted the remains of the rebellion, every effort would be made to interrupt the continuance of tran quillity, more particularly when they were encou raged by the eaperlation of deriving foreign aid from the enemy bolding out threats of immediate invalion. It was therefore to thefe individuals themfelves, an all mud feverity but of mercy, to continue the ope ration of the meafure in queflion. It was tseceffitry by veiling Government with thefe extraordinary powers, to convince them that perfeverance in their treafonable defsgns was hopelefs, before they could be induced to return to the habits of peaceable alle giance. When they found that they could not take a fingle llep without being watched—when they raw that their purfuits could be blailed in a moment — when they perceived that Government poffeffed the means of intlant and fignal punithment, it might be reafonably fuppoled that they would be induced to abandon purfuits evidently leading to inevitable ruin. It was barely an all of jullice to make them take up fuch a view of their condo& and fituation. The idea of rebellion ought to be banilbed from theii thoughts by fhewing them that it was a projeft altogether imprafticable. On every contideration of experience, of policy, of jullice, and of mercy, he was decided ly fur retnafting the Bill. He trolled that the Ho nourable Gentleman would not be inclined to perlill in his oppufition, or contend that at lealt the re enaltment of the Bill ought to be deferred. Nothing appeared to him fu likely to encourage the loyal part of the community, which had fuch powerfal claims to fupport. Nothing mild fo effeftually difcourage the deigns or exiingoilh the hopes of the difaffefted. It was neceffary to let the difaiefted fee that the Go vernment poreffed the confidence of the Legiflature, and that they would receive whatever fupport the exi geodes of affairs required. To refute to jowl* Go vernment with powers which there was no danger' of king in any intlance employed with harfisnefs, would elate the fpirits of the deluded vidioss of rebellion, while it would paralyfe the exertions and augment the fears of thole firm and patriotic friends of the contlitution, whom it was the duty of Parliament to fupport by every poillble extenflun of liberal provi lion. The Right Honourable Gentleman concluded by giving his decided fupport to the motion. Nu further debate took place en the motion for leave to bring in the Bill for continuing the Sufpen lion of the Habeas Corpus AB. The leave was ranted. Mr. Secretary You.. before the Houfe adjourned. brought in :be Bill. It was read a firft time, and ordered to be read a fecond time on Monday. ' Mr. Secretary You. next moved for leave to bring in a Bill for continuing Martial Law in Ireland for a time to be limited. The motion being pat from the Chair, Mr...iluattoutaits immediately rose to exprefs his reasons for oppofing the motion. He begged it to be nodes - flood a* he did not found his objeftioos to it frost any wain of confidant io dads who was to ex. crcife the powers to be granted by the Bill. •On the contrary, he had the moll entire confidence that thefe powers would in no initance be abided, either by the Government of I: eland, or the Go-ernment of this Country. His objection was founded on condi. tinional grounds. lie was conviaced that it mull he a principle with every man who loved the con- Ilitution, never to give his alfent to a Bill conferring fuch extraordinary powers, without the molt urgent and imperious necetUty. Aain g on this principle, he could nut, on the ground of confidence in Govern ment, con(cnt to violate the conttitution, unlefs the necciTity of loch a violation was clearly effablifhed. Whets this Bill was formerly paired, a rebellion ac tually raged in Ireland, and ample documents to prove its neceffity were laid on the table of the Houle. At prefent no fiat of evideti-e to prove its neeeflil was brought forward. Had any parliamentary evi• dence been adduced ? Were any fads Rated to thew that the re-enadment of the Bill was effemial to the maintenance of tranquillity in Ireland ? Had the Houfe obtained even the bare refponfibility of a Mi nifier on the fubjed ? Nnt one of thele grounds of the neceffity of the meafure had been brought brine the Houle. Indepen.lent of all information, Members were called on io give their affent to a meafure which confeffedly violated the free principles of the Briti(h Conaitution. When any defcription of fubjeds were to be deprived of a conititutional privilege, it was neceffary to proceed with coolnefs and deliberation. Even while rebellion raged in Ireland he bad not heard of reforting to martial law, and fufpending all appeal to the civil tribunals, without a coafiderable portion of anxiety and alarm. But what, he delved the Hook to confider, were the Ipecifie grounds on which the introcludion of martial law was defended ? It was on this principle, that jurors were orer.awed in the difcharge of their duty, and that witnelfes could not come forward to give their teltimony with out great perlional danger. It was becaufe the ordi nal y tribunals of jottice were necelfarily [hut up, from the caufes which he had now Rated, that it became neceffary to have recourfe to military decifions. tithe fame circumftances now exilled, he thould, however reludatit to violate the Confiitution, give his akin to the motion. No fuch circumttances did, however, exist at this period. Jurors could difcharge their ditty with the ottmoft fafcty. Witneffes could come for ward to give their rellimony without any appiehen lion of danger. Perfons guilty of rebellion had been arraigned before the ordinary tribunals of jultice, had been convided on the clearelt evidence, and had Coffered the Sentence of the law, lo the grounds on which Martial Law was formerly reforted to did not it was not lamely aling too much to require fome new grounds for re.enading a Bill vetting the Executive Government with extraordinary and un conllitutional powers. It certainly was not too much to a& that, if new grounds did exill they (honk! be Rated. To affent to a Bill of this kind without any grounds was wbat he never could, under any cir eumflances do, actin g as a Reprefentative in mcnt. If the Right Hon. Secretary of State was determined to perfift in prefling the Bill, it was at leaft fair that he Should not precipitate ifs prop-eft through the Houfe. It would be fair to allow thole Gentlemen who were more particularly connected with Ireland an opportunity of offering their fend ments on the fubjed. The number of Irifh Members now in their place was very inconfiderable, and they had a right to be confulted before the conflitutional privileges of their Conaituents were furpended or violated. He had thought it his duty to throw out thefe few obfervations to the Houk. Before he fat down, he begged leave to repeat, he did not oppofe the re.enadment of the Bill from any want of confi• dence in the mode in which it would be applied by Minifters. He had no doubt that their application of the powers with which it veiled them would be mild and merciful. His objections were, however, founded in reined for the Connitution and the cha rs/ter of the Government, and Should not induce him to vote for a Bill, of the neceffity for which not the flighteß evidence had been adduced. Mr. CORRY role to make a few obfervations in re ply. The Hon. Gentleman had Paid, that in all for mer cafes of the palling of the Martial Law Bill re bellion &dually raged, or tranquillity was very feri °idly diaurbed. He begged leave to fet the Hon. Member right on that head. In the year 18ot, this very bill had been not only once but twice renewed in the courfe of the fame Section, though at that time no rebellion or appearance of rebellion exitted from one part of Ireland to another. The Hon. Gentle. man feemed to be unacquainted with the hiflory of the rebellion. He did not appear to be aware that the machinations of the difaffetted were at their ori gin carefully veiled in darknefs ; that their views were gradually diffeminated over the country; that it was not till their party was fully organized that they broke net into ads of open rebellion. The wifdom of Parliarnenthad been exerted in a number of ads to dikover and to diftoncert their views.— Every effott had been employed to trace out the dif ferent relations and bearings of the confpiracy. Thefe efforts bad, however, failed of fuccefs. Never till the all insp.:Rion was paled were the defigns of re. hellion fully afcertaioed. Never till Government was armed with thefe extraordinary powers was any thing like tranquillity or confidence reflored. Though individuals continued to (offer, though ads of km -1 ration and violence were not *lin:ether deStroyed, yet the Conilitution was fiord, and the Sinews of the rebellion were annihilated. This deft he afcribed, more than to an other caufe, to the repeated re.eaaa. ments of this Bill in the courfe of the years iBo2 and 1803. The Hon. Gentleman, however, did not fee the neceffity of re-enacting the Bill at the prefent period. Ile had Paid, that the grounds of its re en aliment formerly was the intimidation of Jurors and witneffes in the performance of their duty, but at this moment Jurors were unmolefled ; witneffis could give their tellimony without any dread of the mice quences all the ordinary forms of law and Office were obferved. He would not pretend to deny that this defcription of the Rate of the country was COI , red, bar he would maintain that the prefent tran quillity of the country was the tied of the very bill to which the Hon Member fo Strongly obieeled.— It was not unknown to the Hon. Member and the Houk, that till the Bill was paged, the fylieso of intimidation was univetfally prevalent, and the courts of common law were as a matter of neceffity that, sot againft rebels alone. but spina the loyal _girt of the community. who were making every Until= is fopport of the Coottitution and the seining Gamm ons. It was sot till the rebels found that they weld. not profecnte their &hems with any hopes of tamers, that • the lirong powers yelled in the Government ren dered their detediqn and puniflorent a matter of al atoll abfalute cettainty, that continuance in rebellion NIA* only another term for deAru!ion, that they thought of abandoning their traitorous projeets, that they fat down in laborious tranquillity, and began to return to the habits of dutiful allegiance. If the Ho. nour.ible Member looked to the Rate of Ireland mere ly as it was at this day, his view would Ise extremely partial and limited. To be able to reafon fairly ca the fubjeft it behoved him to look at the potters acrd various modifications of the rebellion. He ought to compare the means ufed to fpread ditaffeilihn with the means employed to check its diffislion among the lower orders. Among theft lag means he had the univerfal reilimony of the bell informed peifone in Ireland, that this meafure had been one of the greet ed and efficient enures of the return of tranquillity and order, of the poffibility of continuing the ordi. nary exercife of the form of the Common Law Courts of the Land. Independent of this meafure, the Honourable Gentleman would not this day have had it in his power to notice the prefent tranquillity of Ireland as an argument againft the re•enadment of the Bill. So far from viewing the re•enaament of the Bill as any ad of feverity to the loyal and well difpof ed part of the community, he viewed it in the oppolill light. By allloyaland welldifpored individuals it would be confidered as a meafure not of opprefflon, but of prateCtion ; not of vigour, but of wife precaution, on the part of the Government. It would difpel their apprehenlioni, and give them new energy in their oppofition to the defigns of the difalletted. It would enable them to check rebellion at its firft opening. and leave to them the privilege of appealing for the redrefs of injuries to the ordinary tribunals of their country. The Proclamation of Martial Law by the exercife of the prerogative was what every friend to the Conftitution would be anxious to avoid. It was to avoid the neceffity of filch a mearere that the bill was originally introduced, and was now propofed to be continued. Without fuch a bill traitors might efcape unpunithed, and loyal citizens might be de prived of their Conllitutional Privileges, and dragged before Military Tribunals. Oa thefe grounds the BM had his hearty fupport, and he hoped it would alfo obtaia the fuppurt of the Houfe. It was a bill which, from his knowledge of the prefent nate of Ireland, he had nn difficulty iu pronouncing effential to the continuance of tranquillity. Mr. JOHN CLAUDIUS BEkesFORD begged the indul gence of the Houfe, while he made a few obferva.- tions. His Hon. Friend under the gallery had urged two objettions to the re-enactment of the sill, at lealt without more mature confideration. The &It °Nee. Lion was, that no fads were produced to jultify the necefhity of the meafure. The fecond objection was drawn from the thinnefs of the Members particularly connefled with Ireland, and heft fitted to give infor mation to the Houfe on the fubjeft. With regard to the firft objeCtion, it was unneceffary for him to take up the time or attention of the Houfe. His Right Him. Friend had filly removed this objeflion, and he heartily agreed with his Right Hon. Friend, that if the meafure were not renewed, the fame fy dem of terror which had been alluded to would immediately be renewed in all its horrors. With regard to the thinnefs of the attendance of Members conneaed with Ireland, he fhould make one or two remarks— Having been very recently in Ireland, and having had ozcafion to afcertain what were the feitiments of at leaft three.foutths of the Irifh Members refident in that country, as to the expediency and neceffity of the mature, he requefted the Houfe, on his veracity, to be affured, that they were to a man convinced, that the re-cnadment of the Bill was indifpenfably need fary to the prefervation of tranquillity, and to the protedion of all loyal fubjeas. They were fo eh*. roughly convinced of its neceffity, that they expotted the re•enaiment of the Bill would be one of the ear licit ads of the felEon. If they had not indulged Inch an expedation, they would at this moment have been in their places to folicit its re-enallment. This fentiment of the neceffiry of the meafure, he might add, was not confined to Members, but wait enter tained by every loyal man in every part of the mew try. He, himfelf, had been the only !rah Member who had eapreded doubts iefpeding the loyalty of the lower orders, is oppofition to the opinion of a number of other moll refpciflable individuals. The late mad attempt at rebellion he had fern, he con felled, with feelings—in fome degree of pleafure.— He rejoiced to find that the opinion he entertained of the difloyalty of the lower orders was erroneous, and that the fpirit of dila/ration was much lefs gene ral than be had dreaded. At this moment all good men of every party were animated with feelings of loyalty, and convinced of the neceffity of defending the country spina the common enemy. He Bo cerelr believed, that at this moment, there was not one twentieth part of difalcdion in Ireland as there was at former periods. At prefent, all claffis felled of the fmalleft refpeflability or property. were refolved to Rand by the Government, and willsed no fubjed to be *mud which could at all give rife to ditlintion at this great cries. (Nora there ea a hal cry from dm lifiailerial iamb.)-.-Here the dircuirson ended. i.eave was obtained to bring in the Bill. It was brought in by Mr. Secretary Yorke, read a &a time, and ordered to be reed a fecond time on Monday. - - - - - Mr. Caaa v wowed kr knre saki% in a ICE for ansinuing eke Refirlaien of the fink of Inked from males Parneens in Cal. Hs laid. he bessid not weak the Houk wish way nreseneses is f i s t i c r ai st suoeion. Mach arm a moral cenkquessee of the un Bio winds alßeed the payments of the Bask at tint. lead.•-•Aipeod as. He then moved for tie accoonts of of Nem and kink Peg NM mak at keen days date, 11ribed by the Dank of Inked, inns cirealation w the to N Jarseary. April. Joao. and ilonnsiors 5797; in the Itt of April, May. sad June slot ; the aA of June, Anvil, November. sod Decensbw, doe t and on the till of January. April. sod Aiwa, 0103 $ diftlagssielni finds NON and Bank Pad Sills as wets below the 'aloe al five guineas Ontcred. The Hawk having gone bee a Committee of Berply, the 1.1. MMus fano was voted towards the Soppily granted to M. Malay: Tle run of IA ti 701. y 4 yd. fee the Ordleary of the bialry for the pier slog; sod the fees of caeljtoL for .6iog, and repairs of I. Mer vi liblio,over and above the hot greott4 for the weer aid tent The Report was breasts wp, eel enteral to be resawed marrow t eel the Committor of Supply ramped to Mends,. 1.421111 was instal, cm dor tootles 44 Mr. Viatil hart rJr lettleemary trtwatillamien I. The Elamite of E tar the Derma Departsiast for tie year 1104. lose to be laid before the Hier. tbe Committem Eateekti Laws. refeletbews peed ream. .totaling the astimmenee ad terseml Laws, whkh would hare east. wife aspired fu wenn ate the meeting of hellestment. The re. folanons Weft ripened, soll the Aaron ar.lWed th ha roodvo4 to. moorrow.—A4oossoll. I