The National Register. — London, England, 1821-05-28 00:00:00

Mr. HUME spoke stiongly against this grant, and pro posed a reduction of 9,3001. The cotninittee divided on this amendment.—For it 20 — Against it 63. The grants of 1,1451. for exchequer and treasury fees on ordnance grants, mid 39,1261. for balance of extraordivaries, ear. were agreed to. On au item for Itt,oool. for contingencies in the store de partmeut, Mr. Hume opposed the mo altogether. After a long conversation the committee divided—for the resolution 99—Against it 53—majority fur the resolution 46. The next resolution was for 111,8301. for Ireland. Mr. HUME objected to this vote as extravagant in the extreme. The expenditure in the store keepers department was greater than it was in the same department in England it was upwards of 11,0001. and might be reduced to 40001. He proposed ns an amendment a reduction of 45501. • Sir JOHN NEWPORT supported the amendment Mr. WARD emaciated that the sum proposed was trot sure than adequate for the services required. Sir HENRY PARNELL was uuderstoou to supportfthe amendment. Mr. liumg replied. After a few words from R. Ward, strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the committee divided, when the numbers were—fur Mr. Home's amendment, 53—against it, 92 majority, 99. Mr. BROGDEN then read a resolution the house, that a sum (4299,6531. he granted to his Majesty, for the purpose of defraying halt-pay superannuations, and pensions to ()lacers of artillery, &c. After a few words from Mr. Hume, the resolution was agreed to. The next resolution was, that a sum, not eseeedhig 39,1381. Its. Sri. be granted to his Majesty fur the purpose of defrayiug widows' pensious, and retired allowances in England. Mr. HUME complained that there were many individuals on this list who might have been placed in some of the 67 others which had hen filled up by persons who had beets introduced fur the first time into the ordnance service. A saving of 6,0001. might have been created in that manner.— He thought that the only way of putting a stop to the profusion with which goverument placed individuals upon this list was refusing the money to pay the pemions. lie added up the half pay of those who had not performed nine years' service, and he found that it amounted to 4,100 and and odd pounds. He should propose that the resolution be diminished in amount by that sum. After a .ew words from Mr. J. Smith and Mr. R. Ward, the resolution w..s agreed to without a division. After certain other resolutions were passed, the Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again to-morrow. Mr. A ItHU CHNOT gave notice that on Friday next he should submit to the house the army extraordinaries. The other orders of the day were then read, and the house adjourned. TUESDMR, MAY 22. There was a ballot fixed for to-day for a committee to try the merits of the Peterstield election petition ; but as there were only tis members present at four o'clock (100 being required for a ballot), the hou►e, was declared to stand adjourned till to-morrow. WEUNESDAY, MAY 2 1 . The gallery was nut opened till neer five lock, iu consequence of the ballot to try the merits of the Peters field right of election petition. Mr. D. BROIVNE brought in the bill to amend the navigation laws in Ireland. Mr. CHETWYNDE presented the report of the Va grant Laws' committee, and gave notice, that to-morrow he should move for leave to bring in a bill on the subject. Dr. I'HILLLMOI(F presented the report of the Lime tick tight of election committee, which be read at the bar, The committee had determined that the right of election was in freemen and freeholders of the Wall and county of Limerick, Arc. Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON gave notice, that ou Friday next, on the question that the house go into a committee of supply, he should call the attention of the house to cer tain circumstances connected with the state of Europe. - - . Mr. HUME gave notice, that on the 12th of June he should move an address to the King, ou the necessity of reducing the expenditure, and particularly of lessening the army. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME also gave notice, that on the Ith ofJone he should submit a motion respecting the lonian Islands ' end paitictilitrly Soliciting the conduct of Sir 'l'. Maitland. Several petitions a ere presented against the Hetiopolis Road bill. Lord MILTON asked whether any member could in- i form him if it were the intention of the agricultural committee to discuss, or recommend, any repeal of the agricultural horse tax ? Mr. CUUNVEN said he was sorry he did not see the than man of the comminee in his place; brit lie added, if no other member gave any notice on the subject, he should du in on 31ouney. Mr. HUNIL moved for various accounts respecting the expenses at Lewisham, &c.—Ordered. Ctt tau a t. LAWS.—CONSTITUTIONAL. ASCOC I AVON.— Ott the presenting of a petition fur the revision of the criminal laws, Mr. it MAJ.:H.INi called the attention of the house to an important infiingement of the law that had taken place in the practice of the criminal law, and in the privileges of the Attorney and Solicitor General, that of instituting prosecutions for libel. (Hear, hear.) An association, of questionable legality, was established to wen:cute punn edl libels, by means of a connison fund ; but the indivi duals were unknown and irresporsiole. He was now willing to address to such individuals the language of expostulation, for lie was 1111101 deceived if those indivi. 11114111 who persevered did nut live to tepent the course they were pursuing. The funds and discretion were, in Act, in the power of one or two attorneys; and surely it was h better that the discretion should be tett in the banns, as usual, of the Attorney and Solicitor General.-- (Hear, hear.)—There vies another objection to the ASSO- IiUII there wen e among the subscribers no less than 40 peers, and it was u it bin the range of possibility that those peers 'night be tunic judges, in their usual capacity, tit CNICS VllllOl they combined to prosecute. Solely those noble turns could tint tie aware of the character of their conduct. (Hear.) lie had deemed it right toady( rt to these eh cunistauces. Counter assuciations %%until nut cute the evil, but they were likely to be the consequeuce.— (Hear, hear.)—Petitlou ordered to be printed. HE‘ict E Or CiiimiNALs.—Mr. G. 13F.NNLIT moved tor leave to Wing to a bill to asuend the buns respcmiog persons guilty tit rescuing caimioals. As the law kolOUti Ile touttut the coudouu law, the pasous guiity ut reacue., THE NATIONAL REGISTER were punishable to the extent which had been awarded to the criminals ; lint there was the statute uf Geo. 11. tte. The existing law was defective; police officers might be maimed without cutting, and they could on ly in „„ c „ le fur assatils, and be propused to amend lite la w as to resider more effectual protection to officers and others, who might prevent, or endeavour to prevent, lire rescue of prisoners. The SOLICITOR GENERAL should not oppose the bringing in of the bill. The common law provided the mode of prosecution and punishment; and the statute applied to casts for attempting rescues. Motion agreed to. Mr. WILBERFORCE said, he should as early as possi ble bring forward a motion respecting papers that had now been some time before the house, regarding the more effectual abolition of the slave trade; lie named Tuesday, June 6. CRIMINAL Laws.—Fonaxay.—Sir J. MACINTOSH moved that the house resolve itself into a committee on the I forgery punishment mitigation bill. The SOLICITOR GENERAL said, it was with consider able pain that he felt it his duty to oppose this motion.— He was happy that this question could be discussed without any thing like ;ratty feeling—party had nothing to do with it.—This bill uruse out of the report of last session on the criminal laws ; and that report, he said, it was impossible to read is about admitting that it took an extremely partial view of the questiou. There were many persons in this country is ho were aversefrom executions fur various offences; sod therefore it might easily have been predicted that wheu the committee was uppointcd,such persons would press them selves on the attention of the committee. lie had unfeigned respect for the chairman of the comrdttee ; but the report was evidently the production of haste, and therefore was not entitled to so much attention. It spoke fur instance of he lass s regarding privately stealing to the minima of 40,. and of privately stealing on board vessels on navigable rivers, wheu is fact tin such laws existed.—lie then spoke of the crime of forgery. The first °Mice was that of forging a will, an offence easily committed, but which might ruin whole families; forging transfer of stuck, marriage licenses, deeds, &c. 11 , as the house prepared to agree that transom. tattoo in such cases would be sufficient ? He was aware that inflicting death for forgeries was no innovation on the com mon law ; forgeries w ere formerly punished as misdemeanors; but the reason was tolerably evident. The offences were extremely rare heretofore; but when commerce increased, and and sr ben writing became more extensively known, in Eli zabeth's reign, the law on the subject was made more severe. There was another Act on the subject in George the Second's reign, more exemplary punishment having been deemed necessary. That Act, however, was not introduced without the greatest consideration. Lord Hardwicke was at the (line Attorney General. It was at first made teinpprory ; It was pooled for live years, but the subject had frequently been brought forward, nod lie therefore begged the house to exercise the greatest r ireudispection before it disturbed the practice established by about a century. The rensun was said to be, fur an alteration in the existing law, that the ex isting law was not efficient to repress lot geries. He denied that statewentiof the preamble (—private forgeries were not frequent. The law in such case, he contended, was efficient Ile denied the Lace of the argument, that many persons, who now abstuitied from prosecution on account of the Penalty, would pi use if the punishment were lessened ; in either ca,r they %soukd be mietated on by such consider atiosit—l he .everity of time penalty. Punishment was meant to prevent the committal of crime, by terror or otherwise; but if the offence were punished with transportation only, prisoners often would, as transports had done before, ou being convicted, turn round to the judge, and thank him fur the change of condition obtanied. Persons guilty of forge ries were geocrally in a most distressed situation; and they therefore would not object to such change as that of trans portation. He admitted that the punishment in other coun tries were ant so"severe, but then they had is police, and modes of proceeding against the prisoners that were unknown iu this country ; and, under such circumstances, we mast i take the good together with the evil. He coucluded with moving as an amendment, that the hill be committed this day six months. Mr. P. BUXTON defended the bill. _ _ Mr. MARTIN (of Galway)strongly supported the bill.— He was convinced many offenders escaped prosecution in consequence of the indispositiou of persons to prosecute where the punishment of death was to follow. He himself was an instance of this—a person committed a forgery on him two years ago, for two thousand pounds. and he directed that the °treader should be prosecuted for u minor OGIICC, if possible. The person whu lodged the information entt red into re• ognizaiices to prosecute. The assizes comic, and he then learnt that if he proceeded iu the prosecution, the maw would be hanged. He then advised the prisoner to lipid) to put oir his trial ; be did so, and be (Mr. M.) before the next assize-, directed the lain mer to forfeit his recognizance by nut appearing. lle did so, and the offender esiniped.— Whereas, hind the punishment been transportation instead of death, he would have prosecuted the offender to con viction. Dr. LUSII I NGTO N also supported the bill. The forging of is ills nas a very rare (acute—he had only known of three instances, and io these the parties would not prosecute be cause of the capital punishment o illCh 1111w:bed to it. It was singular, but a case, one of the three, occurred to him this very morning. Ina case in which he was engaged pros essinually, the forgery being clearly proved, the person who should huve prosecuted wrote a letter, which he, (Dr. Lush illicit)) had in his hand this very morning, in which he said, " get back the property; I am nut vindictive,and I will not prosecute." As to the punishment of death having an efliet in deterring others from the commission of crime, it had no such elfect. He had been informed of an instance which occurred to a youth of IS, about two years ago. He had up to that time a good character. Oue morning he passed up the 01.1 Bailey during an execution; be inquired a hat the criminal was suffering fur, aft,' oils tool(' tor forgery.— The youth aas a tie, k in a tot I chant', liou..e; lie %tut to his cmploy, committed a foorory on his employer that very ' day, and paid his life as the furl it of its slime. Mr. NOLAN supported the amendment of the Sulleitot General, on this short and strong ground—that the bill itself admitted death to be the proper poisoi•litin tit uf for gery in the first instance, in one case; and in the secy. I instance, in all other can •es. C. W. ‘l , YNN cutitenileil that the onus was t ly an the other side to show the propriety of the continuance of the punishment of death. (Hear, (tear.)—lle tt ho donlwed the necessity of death as to the punisllatellit bound to vote for going into the commit to e. Alt. W. COUBTEN A N . would vote in favour of the bill in its present stage; and it was because lie behest(' they were going .11004 with public opinion,. It was the ti.soi es. siou public uptuiun which bad called tut the cuutuuttee, I.J and which now called far the specific measure* lit opei.e.l. He opposed the committee because he had thought a ferent mode more eweveuient 4 11111, having been one of its members, he could say that di. y bad not begun the inquiry with any partial or prejudiced ileterinisiatiun. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to stale the considerations which influeueed him in the vote he. should give. In doing so, hr felt that it ought to be the wish of every humane man and enlightened legislator to reduce punishment to the bounds of strict necessity. Whore the law was enforced, crimes were diminished; where re: taxed, crimes were hi d in number. By the Mire diction of transportation for the minor offence,the forgery of the negotiable instruments of the Bank of England was increased. The forgery of private instruments was visited with capital punishment, and was therefore less frequent. Government were nut to blame for having neglect. d to provide secondary punishments. It ass a matter of ma terial consideration whether there was any secondary punishment iu existence for forgery. If there was no punishment in transportation, it was a question whether indemnity or a positive bounty on forgery was to be enacted. They were at work to strip forgers of eve.; circumstance which constituted a imuishment calculated to prevent it. Now, forgery was so fatal to the whole order of society, and in its nature so aggravated au of fence, that it was nee y to visit it with a punishment that should carry terror to the minds of all. Mr. WILBERFORCE could not go to a division with out giving his testimony in favour of the bill. Whatever might be the final determination, none ought to vote against going into a committee, unto. they were so in love with the present system that no change was thought de sirable or practicable. To extinguish life was to extin guish hope, and to destroy an immoi tal son!. Sir JAMES MACINTOSH proceeded to argue the question before the house, If his silence might not be considered unbecoming, he should have been well content to have rested the case on the spe..ch of his hon. friend (Mr. Buxton)---a speech so complete as to have exhausted the whole question, and so Luminous as he bad never be fore had the good fortune to bear in that house. (Cheers.) It would be needless and irksome to follow on the was side, and if he might be silent, he should willingly rest the measure on the principles of that admirable exposition. It was to facts and inferences such as were there pre sented, that the house was bound to attend. He stood not there to refute hypercriticism; but lee did not abstain from any consciousness of Inability to defend the report from the objections made to it. (Cheers.) Alter much forcible reasoning expressed in most eloquent language, the lion. and learned gent. concluded by saying that he now left it to any hon. gent. who chose, to exercise the right of speaking after him. The ATTORNEY GENERAL supported the amend. sent at some length. The house thee divided—Ayes, IlB—Noes, 74—Majo rity 41 fur the original motion. 0., our re-admission we found the house in a committee on the bill, Mr. Buxton in the Chair. It was agreed that any alteratiuns or discussions as ising on the clauses should be postpoued till the bringing up of the repot t. The house ref 1111 l ed, and the report was ordered to be received on Friday. Sir JAMES MACINTOSH postpoued the other two ' bills till Friday. lite other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned. THURSDAY, NAY 21. Mr. H. SUMNER. moved for leave to withdraw the New ington Select Vestry Bill, the parties coocerued having come to an arrangement among themselves. Mr. DENISON expressed his satisfaction at the motion.. Motion agreed to. Mr. At;TELL presented a petition, praying the house to repeal prohibitory duties on the importation of eons. He maintained that those duties had operated most igjuriously au all classes. Mr. CUR WEN defended the agriculturalists. Mr. HUME said the corn laws had operated most injn rlously. Mr. T. WILSON thought the petitioners were proceeding somewhat erroneously ; it would have been better to petition the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring down the times to en amount corresponding with the value of money, land, Ale. Petition referred ,to the agricultural committee 14 ithuet having been read. Mr. ELLICE presented a petition from Newington Green against the metropolis road bill.—Ordered to lie ou the table. Sir H. PARNELL presented a petition, signed by the four Catholic Archbishops, and majority of the Catholic Clergy of Ireland, on hermit of the education of the pour.— Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BIRCH presented& petition from Nottingham ngninst the poor lases amendment bill. Peraitio read and ordered to he printed. Mr. C. II A lINLY presented a similar petition from Nor & i ch. Ordered to he prinivd. Col. DAVIS moved that a sleet committee be-appointed to examine into certain culpable pm ac (ices iu the clover and trefoil aced trade—practices by means of which the vegeta tive qualities of the seed it ere destroyed & Wood being disco - tremble by oily except most experienced persons.— motion axreed to,. FOUR AND AIIA LE PIIRCENT.Ourtri.—Mr.CREEVEY rose to bring furisat d hie promised motion respecting a remote duty of four and and a half per stmt. chargeable on the Lee ward and Barbadoes islands. lie took orcasion the other night to object to the grant of 7,b001 • for forts at Barbadoes, became lie considered the-e forts, &c. ought to be lola its repair by such duty. But instead of the ditty betag so ap mopriitted, it was diverted to the pay it,.l of certain pru. f•lons to certain hods and ladies, lcis,,i s. :lieu: consequence, when I.e telleeted, ice c. rtaittly did not exin et any Very greet sneer-9 a auld attend his motion. Ile bone ver wished the house to bear in amid that hi, first reat , lutilm related In Bit bad.ses ti,dy. Ile treat &dressed to the Liss of ltiCal, fur the rep:lF:l6on and tionshing of tort:11141111"os, 4r, to he paid by the four awl a Ica per cent. duly ; but w it lie found 0011iluA about the puytneut of piitzlionnla 11l cerium lords dna 13.11r,4, C111:01112/ 110111ing ;nowt the porkelb of memticrs torched Louse ut the skive 11. 1 1 4 . 11•11.1:1. hear ) —The dillies wire i.fori staid. deemed to lie the hertilitury resent.e of the cro 'A II ; t u .‘llile %as addressed to direct the choir, to be uppr••pti.iird estordiug to the terms of the Ail. 'rill many ycars afterstard• both's% in the 1i1.11.e of pen: lsere sr inted. 'rite duty was sub. jeered to the pityn•etit ui woo.. Is Lord but bow stood Ilea A rasbt ? Ii wits pursuant folk,. 011 - .luArmrlll mole at lie settlement of kturliadoes. A I ler ti 4iid4, hoarser pets. (For mitimkatiun 4;:c Tart ltiG.