The National Register. — London, England, 1816-02-18 00:00:00

Le bud given it his support us a means of carrying on the war. He fcll it incumbent on him, new the war wile 17011C11111rd, to protest neatest its renewal. With respect to the proposed re lief to the ageicaltural interest, et greater relief would be' sit . - forded to evert.• class of his Ala,jesty's subjects if the Property tax was taken off. Mr. Hotta ER concurred with the last speaker. "that it was in vain to expect relief without some amelioration of taxes. and that could only be dime by a reduction in the proposed esta blishment.—(Hear,htur.l—it was a dehision practised mem the public by i‘linisters, to say that the Military Establishment to sa large an extent was necessary for the saf'e'ty of the country. The thing must he met fairly and honestly; disenise would nut do ; anti theeetiwe the only question for the Constituents to pat to their Ilepresi etatives was this :—"is it necessary to keep up an army of 50,000 men in the British Islamise' That the teitinition of the country was different now from what it was at laity other period of peace, every one must admit. We hail 1111 w 110 101011i1A):1.1 enemy to dread --thi Navy and Army of France, Spain, and Holland, were annihilated. and the military means of offence of the first Power reduced, What alarm could eeisti The fact was, and he st predict it, that if the tary EstalAishnient was kept up for a few years, it would, in the end, be found incompatible with the constitutional rights and liberties of the people.--(//ear, !tsar. —We (ight to pre sesve our character us a nation, by alibi rifle, to a Marine Esta blislinicnt, and not to he deluded into a show of military glory, with a slew to take rank among the military despots of the Continent. The truth was, that one or other must give way, er liberty and the constitution would have but a short snuggle with a military goverumeut.—(llww, h, Mr. VANsrnAnT could not think with the Hon. Gentleman, Allot the liberties of the country were endangered materially in .erm.l.equielee of an addition of 23,001.1 men to the military es tablishment. Mr. TIERNEY did not dread the addition of 24,090 men ; bolt he did teed alarm at the increased inlinetine of the Cave n from so large an establishment, and wished his alarm to leach from one end of the country to the other. 'the House would dis grace itself if the abscut Members were not called over when Mite question was discussed—(Licar, hear)—to say aye or nn to so monstrous a proposition. The only way to retain their places, Ministers conceived, was to erect a military system, that could not be reduced—No!. it must receive an addition of strength—lt was easier for them to reduce the Nasy, and pay tstraen sail of the line, than one regiment of Hussars. Li some limiters a Captain of the British Navy, in his plain tar's dress, did not look to the eye of some persons quite so well us 4 &eased up officer in the army, with his whiskers, his inustaclMs, and trappings.—( Hear, evar ) -- . 1 he Noble 1.4.:d might sneer at this too, bat it seas so; and lie had heard of travellers (the Noble Lott had travelled and seen a great deal of the world) who talked in company of the fine appearance of the cuirassiers and ham! , o the Continent; and then came the system of re dressing our army. The flight Hon. Gent. then commented as the statement of the Right Hon.(kilt. (Mr. Vansittart) of the prevellitig evening, in respect to the finances; and con tended. that nit of the 36 millions hummed last year, 12 mil lions yet remained doe at the Bank, st ithout whose ussistanee stocks mast have been much lower than they now arc. In re spect to the actual peace establishment. it wild be, reducing the items, about 211 millions and a halt, of which sum about; too niiilions and a half were to be borne by Ireland. Not one pound out of the two millions and a half would ur could Ire. land pay. indeed, we most give her assistance. The Itieht lion. Gent. bad bcgtin with his Budget at the wrong end; for he should have pot the ways and means at the top of it ; fur in the vulgar old fashioned way, beltire a gentleman set up an es tablishment, he looked bow his ways and means stood.—(Hear, /oar.)--Ilut, income or not, Ministers were liberal enough. Eur instance, if one of the Allies said, " I brought so many lion into the on owe me Italia million."—" Oh! did you (says the Noble Lord ), well, then, here's half a millien for you."—(A line h.)--The Right Hum (it at, objected to the coutinuance of tho Leather 'fax, and trusted that there would be a clause in the Petitions, warning the House against any extrasagant es tablishmrnt,—(Neer, hour.)--The people of England would be to blame if they gave them halide. Property-tax; Willey agreed to it, they might soon expect Ministers to call for the whole. Lord Casa LEIMA6II defended the continuative of the Pro pert s -tax ; and was prepared to prove, at the proper season, tisatit was not the intentiou of Government to ape other mili tary Governrueuts as the Right Hun. lieut. supposed; n o r should he have coutidence in the Gosernment of any Country until he saw the civil power getting the upper hand of the ; it would not be safe to reduce the establishment until Le saw the military spirit abated. Mr. WINNE made a few observations, and then the report was agreed to. Mr. VA MITTART could not answer the question. It would be referred to the legal Gentlemen. lu answer to a question from Mr. Vr ynne respecting the appropriation of the 7400,0001. to be paid I.y France, the Right Hon. Gentleman said between 490.0001. and aOO,OOOI. I n tel been paid into the militaiy chest at Paris. BANK TRANSACTIONS. Mr. MIENFELL, after some preli 11l i l iury observations in re spect to the Bank transactions, which he denominated exorbi tant and injurious to the. public, on account of the immense profits they nettle, divided the sultjtet into two branches. 'l•be first %VAS, the di posits which individuals lothzed ts nth the Bank, the same as with other Bankers, and which were productive to the. estent of five per cent. on the aggregate sum for ten years, amounting to about I t millions and a half. 'J•he next branch of profits to which he• woold advert was, the CIII/rMOIIS SIIIII al lowed to the Bank for the management of the National Debt; this amounted to upwards of 300,0001. annually. There were ,also two other items, one of 4,0001. annitally for House expenses, anti another of between 3 and 3,0991. annually, for the manage niceit of the sum of 4,000,0001. South Sea stock, purchased by the Bank in 1721; bnt the greatest bratu•b of all from which the Bank derived profit was, the suspension of cash payments, and the consequent increase of pa ; t•r cii ciliation, which lie could not estimate at less than 800,0001., and lot this jnereate 4,1 their profits, the Bonk had principally to thank an Act of the Legishiturc. 10 1800, Mr. Pitt intimated to the Bank his opinion, that the public w ere emit ISA to participate in thepro fits which the 1;411k WaS niaking of the public money and politic balances in its hand ; and upon that representation, an advance ot• three millions of money w as made to the pliblie by the Bank, for a ceitain period, without interest. At this time, however, the Jinni had balances to the amount of sits millions in its hands, and these• balances went on increasing till 1500, at which time they felt lath. short of 12 mi therm ; that circtinistance attracting attention, the Bauk then coos forward with an offer to advance to the pI.IIIM three millions more, at 3 per cent., thus achnow.: !edging the sight of the public to participate. in the pi ohts, and ackhomieug.hg that they had pint-ts, but was it just that the • piibli • hi one. 114,4 tOtt . ll eatte it on to pit) a n y thin g a t all fir tads ads abet. of Ellice millions, when there were 11 millions of pact te roue) in the hands attic Bank? In leoB, Mr. Pererval es eke Bank to make ;mother atlnelace to the public : of auo. THE NATIONAL REGISTER. Cher sum of three millions, without any interest at aH; yet still they had large balances on their hands; and these different concessions in , the pat t of the Bank proved that there was nothing in the Act for the renewal of the Bank Charter which should prevent the public from a participation in these profits. The Hun. Nlember then took a review of the state of the balan ces at different periods, from 1600, to the present linte; and contended, that from 1500 to 1508, the Batik hail balmier, to the amount of 5,509,0001. in its hands, mum which they made a profit of 300.ata01. a year. From that time, to the year 1814, they hail iii their hands 5,100,0901.; upon vs Inch sum they hail tuade a profit of per edit.: and again, from 1511. to the pre sent time. they hail had 8;09,0001. of balaitee iu their hands. On the Nt talk, they had. for the last I I ado-4. been inakiag a profit of 450,0001. annually; and for this munificent income they did nothing, but merely carried ou a plain common mercan tile banking transaction, which there was nut a bauking-house in London or Westminster would not readily perform it fur 2:1,0001. a year. The Hon. Gentleman said, lie must nose again advert to the charge for the management of the public debt ; mid whilst he did justice to the admirable and correct manner in which this part of the public sersire vv as performed, lie most be allowed to recommend, at a time w hen nothing but ronomy could save the country, that some further reduction should he made in the sum allowed to the Batik for Ale per formance of this branch of service, and contended, that since 1506, the increased espcuse to the Bank round not, on the most liberal allowance, bit stated at more than 38,0th01. while their increased profits were 155,0001. at Want. The Hon. Gen tleman nextobjected to the allowance of 4,4001. a year towards the support of their house expeuses, which they had enjoyed eser since the establishment of the Bale— If the Hank stood upon their chartered rights, certaltily this sum could nut be taken from them. Oo 'lr. Perceval's proposing to suppress this allowance, the Bank absolutely refused to assent, and nun, for a reason which, in his opinion, was the strongest that could be urged for its suppressioli; namely, that they had bad it so long. Another item of allowance was, one of between 3 and i,OOOl. for the management of 4 minions Smith Sea stock which they had purchased in 1721, and which bad since Hugg ed in the other public funds, and they were otherwise paid by the public. The last !win which lie had to mention was also one of the most singular that he could imagine ; it amonnted to about 3,0001. per amnion, and was composed of an allowance of one.eighth per cent. claimed by them for the management of su ch potion of the Property-tax as wet to paid by individuals into the Bank direct. The Hon. Gentleman then rot °recited to enumerate the different heads of profit derived by the Bank from the public; and observed. that taking the sum paid fur the mauagement of the public debt at 3a0,3001., the profits on the suspension of cash payments at 800,0001., amid adding the profits on other branches of balances, aft!. their pi Mils were not less than 1,535,0001. ammally, independent of the profits derived from their exemption from the fair propartlon of the stamp duties, which was not less than 400,0901. a-year more. These were profits tool, mid lie was convinced, that tithe House would insist on it with firmness ; the Bank w mold not long resist to gime up to the public some of their overgruri n profits. The Hon. Grandam] cmiclnileil by musing fur the appointment of a Committee to enquire iuto the state of the to:sitting engage. meats between the public and the Bank, and the profits which the Bank derived front those engagements, and to report to the House thereon. . . ......„ Mr. VANSITrAter opposed this motion, as considering it un necessary, Was •It as lie considered the affairs of the Bank had been folly investigated by the Committee in IKOT ; and by the repeated animal accounts since laid before the House. Neither could he agree with the Hon. Gentleman in his po. sition, thattbe public ought to participate in the profits arising from the suspension of cash payments ; since die earliest oppor tunity might and would be seized for restoring cash payments, though he feared circumstances would oblige him to propose a further extension of that measure, but certainly not with any view to increasing the profits of the Bank. He had brought the lion. Gentleman to acknowledge, that more than half the profits of the Bank were derived from the suspension of cash payments, and that the Committee were not to take cognizance of that branch of the profit; and he was persuaded he should prove there was PO necessity for a Committee to enquire into any other part of the profits. Ile thought the present question divided itself into two heads; whether the arrangement made with the Bank by Mr. Perceval in hors was a provident one, and whether the public had a right to any large r share in the profits made by the Bank. For his own part, his duty was to obtain every fair participation in the Bank profits for the pub lie. But his opinion WAS, that they had no right to attempt to coerce the Bank to any other arrangement than that w hich it had entered Into with Mr. Perceval. Instead of there being an increased amount of balances in the bands of the Bank some Demi, they had gradually dimicished since that period. If that were the ease, surely the public ennui not call on the Bank to give a greater participation in its profits; especially when it was considei e el, that whateser the profits of the Bank really were, they must be greater in a time of war than in a them of peace ; for in the latter case the deposits must be smaller than in time of mar. In the arrangements he would lease to propose with the Bank, the public would teceive an advantage of 210,0001. a year, %Nell amounted nearly to half the amount of the advan tages obtained by the Bank from the public, es en taking the lion. Gentleman's own statement. He dekuded the Directors of the Bank ft out the charge which had been made itgaiust them of a want ofaccommodation to the paisley. In volieeting the tax tit income, the Batik did the duty for about 3,0001, year. which would cost the public above 50,001.11. if done accord ing to the original proposition. Upem all these grounds, to ga luso a Committee, tee ase.ertain what further 'motifs could be obtained from the Bank, would be a waste of the time of the House. Mr. RANRES contended, that what was done by the Com mittee of I ftsi was nut equal to the expectations lit' Mr. Perce val, but he was swayed by the opinion of the Governor of the Bank. it never was intended by Mr. Perces al, nor was it laid down in the act of InUts, that that arrangement setts to be !im manent. And if Mr. Percival had attended more to the opi nions of the late Mr. H. Thornton, and to those of that very Committee, he would have found, even then, that a much better arrangement might at that time have been made with the Bank. The Chaneelior of the FAclicq. ought to allow the I louse to ap point a Committee, in order really to ascertain a !tether the Bank nodd not afford a little more to the public service. He had no wish to dissolve the connection between the Bank and the public ; but a snflicieut cheek should be established on the Bank, se hie+ if not done that night mot he done soon. ?dr. Banino contended, that the profits of the Bank had been considerably over-rated by his Ham Friend ( Mr. Gum fell). He reckoned the advantages derived from the Bank by the public since the renewal of the Bank Charter to amount to between seven and eight The Bank had also sup. plied considerable sums of money in gold dining the war, at the :sterling value, when it must have been a consideranie sacrifice to the Bank. Ile denied that the Bank could make 5 per cent. per annum by such fluctuating proptrty as balances, I'EB. 18. which might lie suddelds withdrawn from the Bank foethn public servive. Even it'a C mittee were appointed, their oOi lintlu ng lieW for them to discover, except in what manner the balance , of public money in die hands of the Bank had been (doomed ; an account of which could be laid before the House without the assistance of a Committee. tl r. lIA N NES explained. Mr. TIERNEY haul no intention of trespassing on the time of the Ileum., by entering Into the details of this subject : but be was of opinion that enquiry was flue only mode of ascertaining whether the Bank might or not to give 111010 itel'offirAullittiOn to the politic fur the balances suffered to remain in its hands. Lord CASTLEREAGH thuuuht no sufficient grounds had been laid far au enquiry into the situation and ciremnstances of the Bank ; for if without strouuds such an enquiry wen; "ante into, it must he prejudicial to the eredi: of the Bank. a u . n7l through it, to the credit of th e country, in the eves of foreign nations. He contended that the public had divided the yearly adVAll tages with the Ba nk. arising from the deposits in the hands o r the latter, oboist equally. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr (iro,- fell) might bring the subject before the House by a roce in e motion, without the assistance of a Committee, which ho (Lord C.) considered as quite uncalled for. Mr. Pox•oxur said, the enquiry sought for was simply is know whether the Batik, acting as the Banker of the Public, did noisier the latter su ch assistance as was equal to the outran tap.% derived by the Bank from the lodgment of public balan ces in its hands. How this could affect the credit of the Bank finch less that of the Public) he was nt a loss to know. It WAS impossible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to wish to keep well with the Bank, and that could only i e d one by allowing the Bank to make as great profits from the Public as possible. It was the House of Commons alone that could, in such a ease no the present, become the true guardian of the politic interest. Mr. MAIM VAT spoke in favour of going into a Committee on this subject. Mr. NIANNINn spoke against the Committee. Mr. Giusw.t. replied, and the House divided—For thn mo tion, 4l—against it, 81—majority, 37. On our rendinission to the Gallery, we found Mir C. Monett moving a call of the House for Monday sc'night, on account of the Property-tax.—After Amite conversation, the motion was agreed to.—Adinurned at Twelve o'clock. it'zuNrismtv. Fee. it. Lord CASTLEREAGH presented Copies of Correspondence between the. Duke of Welling!an ' Sir Charles Stuart, Marshal Nov. Lord Bathurst, &c.—Ordere dd to lit. on the table. Mr. liautto; presented 11 Petition from certain Land•owuers, Farmers, and others, real ling at llavenhall and II irlesion, in Norfolk, clamp]; • gof the ha r lships they labmired under, and stating, that nothing but 4 relief from the weigh. of taca• tioo under which the, at vesent laboured could essentially save 4:11.1 further, re.lres , elltieg that, in tliCii lIIIIIIIIIIe opinion, lune of the best modes of lightening the present weight of taxation, won'd be to refariii, as far as 110%Albie, the pi csvut extravagant and enormous expenditure of the Civil List, and to introduce, as far as possible, economy into ever) department of the State. The Petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Till.RS.r.s. wished to know troin the Noble Lord if lie and his colleagues had in View any plan of reform and re trenchment, agreeing with the h o pe held cut in his Royal High ness's Speech; and whether 'key had deter mined on the reduction of ally of the public establisl •nts of .1 civil description. Ile considered that reilnction should take play.• iii the departments of State as well as in the Army and Navy. lie wished to know if the Noble Lord was prepared to state any contemplated re. duction of this description. Lord C.V.TLEREACII said, considerable reductions of the de seription mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken place, and more were in contemplation ; but lie was nut now prepared to state precisely what those reduction would he. Mr. ABEIttHONSUS wished to pin a question to the Right Itun. Gentli man opposite (Nlr. Peel) on the subject of a report he had recently hoard respecting the office iii the Exchequer of Ireland, held by the hue Earl of Buckinghamshire. He had heard a report to which he could not attach credit ; namely, that at the very tunic the Right Hon. Gentleman was assuring the House that this place shotad be abulislied, or at least regu lated, a certain Irish Judge had interposed, and given the ap pointment to his son.. Mr. I'EEL assured the Hon. Gentleman, that no person iu the House or out of it could huts experieaced greater ast la ment than he had done, when the report, to which the Hon. Gentleman had udverted, first reached him ; and he was the more astonished and surprised at it, berause, from the reign of Queen Elisabeth down to the present time, this place had al ways hem' considered as in the gift of the Crown ; and when he (Mr. Peel) stated to the House, that he eemld introduce a Itill for regulating the office, he had no suspieioa that any other person would have claimed a right in it. But he had no hesitation in saying, that, in his opinion, should it appear on ins estigation, either by this House or by a court of law, that any individual Ir d a claim, he saw no reason why . the I louse, if it should consider it expedient, should not introduce a Bill for regulating the Miler. His reason for mentioning the decision ot• a court of law was, hecanse the office being of a very an cient standing, having been created in the year 1300, it did appear to him desirable that smile little time should be giee•n for enquiry and investigation, and to ascertain what fees were legal and what were not. Mr. Rost; said, if the appointment to this office did not test in the Crown, it st belong to the Exchequer of Ire laud, and could not be the right of any lush% iduul. Mr. BUM onsu did not think it material where the right vested ; as by the Resolution of the HUHU! it was slechned, that on the then vested interests expiring the ploce should be abolished. Mr. l'tEL doubted if the lion. Genticuian Nay correct in thigopioion. _ litre the conversation terminated!. NAVAL E.4II I .IIAI'ES. _ _ In a Committee of Supply, Sir 0. WAancsnan stated the estimates necessary for the Naval Establishment of the country during the peace. He trusted he should be able to satisfy' the House, that every at tention had been paid to economy, consistent with the safety of the cenntry. The peace establishment most depend on sari ous circumstances orb ing out of commerce. In respect to foreign stations,—in the East Indies there would be no addition. 'pie Cape station, which is a new one, and connected with St. Ur. lens, ss well as the Manritias, wuuid call for a very consider able number of men, according to the opinion of the dislin gisished Admiral commanding on that station ; II ships would therefore be employed. In the Mediterranean there would be a 74-gun ship, bith , t lute d for a A small squadron would be stationed for the prolec:ion of tile „rowing trade in South Ameriea and Brazils, the merch.mta hasiug wiled to the Alimialty for it. This was also a new statism. Id the Jamaica and Leeward lslrntli a small reduction of the Naval strusgth would take place. One frigate would be stationed on 0