The National Register. — London, England, 1816-02-25 00:00:00

FEB. 115. ;mei to the ques...on, whether the Navy Board a:thanes had Lei augmented, or were intended to he augmented? The Ciitancrid.iiit of the Extinct:we:it said, that he felt it difficult to answer the Hon. Baronet %%nitwit giving offence to others, to whom he Mid not given the answers they desired. Sir C. DIONCK moved for an Account of all Augmentations of ies, ac. in the Navy Bland since January, I , . . . , Mr. Buoctistam thought it right to sngjzist to Ministers, as they refused to answer any qui stious unless they Caine in the shape of a written motion, which was quite contrary to the practice in the House, that the better way of stopping discus sions of this nature wuttid Ire to come down to the 'louse at once with a statement of what they media to do in consequence of tho economical reforms promised in the Speech from the 'Throne, and to tell the House %that retrenchments of useless ex penditut e and useless place?. they proposed to leaky ; ;end to lay betbre Parliament, from time to tone, accounts of their pro. press in the saluthry work of public economy. Then the House would see whether they sincerely intended to redeem the pledge in the Prince Regent's Srech. I.ol'd CAsTLeRRAGH said, that the legislature had certainly not looked at this subject in the same light as the Hon. Gen tleman, who were putting daily so many questions ns to what was done, or what was intended to he done, shield Was rather a not I way of proceeding. Saw Bonne thin-rim% in the BOIL Baronet's motion, from the terms of the question lie had prey ionsly asked. However, as the gentlemen opposite had so is my motions read" he congratulated them on their be coming such then tit business; and II y..d they would reduce all their demands to writing, and into such a shape that the public offices might uoileis;and how to answer them. They seemed disposed untidily to inter that, because one salary was augmented. others were not to be rethrined. Wherever there h a d n„ e n an increase of salary, it had not oven for sinecures, or useless or trivial places, Out in offices of the mo , t laborious nature, and more patient.; rly these involved in the inure etfi dent collection of the reveime. lie must agi.in deprecate this practice of asking so many unnecessary questions.—(Hear, hear.)—An Hon. Member opposite, whn cheered so loudly, was not the most expel fenced hleother of the House; but Lis Lordship would even .e for to his experienee in Parliament on this point. Let these questions come as niuthms on paper. He did nut wish to deny any necessary infomation. Mr. Buoccitast said, that ii they waited; for the view of economical reform proposed by Ministers, they might wait till after the job was dune, and then they would be stopped iu their objects by veined interests, of which persons w , aldaity, like Lord Arden, they are our freeholds. Lord i,:asmarsanii remarked on the 'Lactation of activity displayed fur the piddle interest. • . Mr. HORNER said, the Noble Lord had spoken on these sub jects in a tone to %shills that House was not acensunned. fie thought, that no Member, whether opposing or supporting go vernment measures, must not feel on such a sub leo, w hen the public were ground down by distresses, and when cement) had been promised from the throne. Indeed. on these subjects the Noble lord used, nightly, language which the house ought not to receive, and which was unsuitable to the character of a British Minister in the House of Commons. At one time, when they heard of the urgent impottance of reducing the taxes, not the hunse, butt the people, were insulted by such lan guage as this, to use the Noble Lord's own words—"that there was an ignorant impatience for the relaxation of taxation." Again, in the grave discussion of the treaties, in a debate which his Lordship began, lie took the liberty of supposing the argu ments, and anticipating the opinions of others. On the lutriect of finance he showed the sane disrespect. 1J:-parting twin his Usual metaphorical stateliness or style, he observed, with indifference, that he supposed the question would be about the money. What hope could the House see of the redemption of the Royal pledge ? The Noble Lord said, " Write out the motion ;.' but lie knew the putting a queAum was a different thing from making motion, particularly as to objects suppos ed to be in contemplation. Did be %appose they had all for gotten whatever they bad known of parliamentary practice? While he (Mr. H.) sat there, he would use his priviiege of asking questions, whenever he believed it to be the intention of Ministers to increase their patronage. If they refused to ;limner, the House and the Cowry would not fail to under stand the reason. If the Noble Lord had a satisfactory answer to gist', hue would make no denial. But then all that was wanted was, it seemed, provided for by an Act of Parliament. The statement was to be made on the loth March. But what does the Act provide for, except that no session shall elapse without such statement of reductions and increase being made? The Noble Lord felt that this qtitstiou of money must be a must important topic throughout the Session. It would appear, from various circumstances, that, though the throne promised economy, the Ministers were superfluously .acreasing salaries which had already been raised on account of the dearness of the necessaries of life. It' they had increased the salaries Of the Tax-board, he should move tbr lie accounts. If he should hear that au application is making iron the Stamp-office fur is similar increase, he should ask the Chancellor of the Exche quer for information. Lord ('ASTLEREAGH rose. (Cries if spoke, spoke, from the opposite benches.) Mr. FITZGERALD hoped gentlemen would redeem their own characters when they called upon his Noble Friend, lie thought the Hots. Member who spoke last, could not, after What he It ul said, be one whq would wish to preclude his Noble Friend from eXplanatiou. They had a voused the Noble )..ord of taunting and disrelseetful conduct ;and the Hun. Member had endeavoured to found Isis char4e..not on tiro mews, but on more expressions; yet he manifested strongly the itiformality of his own proceedings. lie described govern inent as employed in raising salaries anti augmenting expense's. As to the various requests made, however, if gentlemen were disappointed at not receiving answers to them all, they had still the power of making their respective motions. Mr. TIERNEY observed, that his Hun. Friend who had cheered, was nut so experienced a Member as himself, merely because he (Mr. 'l'.) had the misfortune to be by so many -years an older man. He had never kuown Mr. Pitt, e;ci. when in the plentitude of his power, decline answering a tad questiou. 11 lieu it regarded a nastier in contemplation, mane little time might be required. But the Chancellor of mite Ex chequer would not now say ay or no to a plain question. See the difficulties this led to, which heated gentlemen's minds. His Hon. Friend was in the n ight, it' those opposite would stack to form, his friends might do su too, and stay, " pus shall not speak twice." W ell might his lion. Frieuel suspect that there was something wrong - at bottom, when a Minister refused to give an alisacr; inure particularly so if it were the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who used its be so fair and candid, that ht suspected he must have lately fallen into some strange com pany. He (Mr. T.) should make a suction, but he was not bound to w rite out his own motion. He should therefore apply to the clerk fin- dust purpose. He then dictated slowly and aloud to the clerk. his intruded motion.- That as aceouttt tie laid Mime the Rouse, showing the jUdglueld.or the offiters of different devil tinent-, with respect to bow HMOs sooner THE NATIONAL REGISTER. than the 2.51.11 it would he practicable to 'nuke tlit returns. _ . The SYEAKIiII observed, that there was another motion de pemling. Mr. TtrAtti EY apologized, and desired the clerk to strike out what lit had written, us he must begin it all over again. Mr. TILANEIi then rose to make has motion *Welt he dic tated to the clerk ; of which the object was, to know from the public officers how much sooner than the 2.i11t of March the rct tiros, according to the directions of the Act of Parliament, (mind be made, of all increase and diminution of salaries, dis tiugni4Ming the numbers and rank of the officers.—Agreed to. Ur. TititaLv rove again, and spoke to the clerk. TIP. ?sPEAKER ohms ed, that tlw usual practice had been for Members to write out their own motions, and the clerks were ready ie give them any assistance. Mr. Ti saw( said, that if there was the infirmity of being dumb on the other side, he had also to plead the infirmity of being unable to write. He then dictated his motion to the clerk, for a return of the number of men must( red in the dif ferent garrisons abroad, distinguishing each from 1786, to 1791. Lord PALMEItsTON thought it difficiilt to get the :accounts of the m e n mustered. It might answer the purpose to show the number provided by Parliament. Mr. TIERNEY was obliged to the candour of his Lordship ; out what lie wanted to know was, the actual number then found sufficient fur security. Lord l'At.mukesTo . N suggested to Mr. T. to name some parti cular *C . ‘ll. ••• • • • " hir:T I ERN Eli said, that then he must, he supposed, make a motionyor that. : -Agreed to. Sir }Wilmer HERON would take the liberty to ask a question' as he had prepared no motion on the subject. It was ru moured, that an ambassador at Lisbon, not at the court oflas bon, (for he knees of no court there,) was actually recalled, and that the Graiticus nus to take out his successor, and brine him home. lk as his successor to enjoy the saute emoluments as the present am ,actor did? Lord CASTLEREAG vs said, that the last mission to the court of Lisbon had to ated by the resignation of the Right Hon. Gentleman (!,i, Canning) on learning the Prince Regent of Portugal's resolution to remain in Brazil. No appointment of amuassadur ur minister plenipotentiary had taken place. Mr. Possum; s inquired respecting the monument said to be intended for the late Cardinal York. Lord CAkTLERLAGH said, that such a monument was to be rested. The deceased, the last of a royal race, which justly f..rfeited the throne of this realm, had not thereby forti , it e d the claims of humanity, and had been for sonic years the ob ject of th" bounty 61 the King, which had excited in the Car dienel's mind the dcs pest gratitude. He had left by his w ill some interesting papers, weedier with the collar °Nile garter, to be scut to the Prince Regent, as a testimony of his gratitude for the generoshy he had experienced at his 'Majesty's hands. the Cardinal's executors expressed a wish tbr the Prince Re gent's assistance towards the ere scion of the intended monu ment ; and his Royal Highness, with that generosity and bene s °knee n hick SU highly recommend him, ordered the assistance to be afforded. Mr. PoNSONBV approved of the King's bounty; but the erection of a monument to the House of Stuart was a different dt.ng. It second, that it was the executors who proposed the monument, not at our desire or sole expense. .‘ tr. Tie/MIA said, the King's allowance to the Cardinal was from the privy purse. Lord CASTLEREAGH had 110 objection to state particulars. {here W.IS a limited s of money: out of the compensations France was to p.ty, takes. tot the expense of carrying back the works of art front Paris to Houle. Out of that SUM a smaller sum was taken fur the expense of the erection of the monument. TIZEiTY OF• PEACE. The Order of the Day was then read tor resuming the ad journed debate on t h e Address to the Prince Regent. Mr. Le w objected to the Treaty, particularly . ou the grounds that its provisions left the kingdom of the Netherlands open to the future attacks of France, and placed her in a situation in which she would oot be likely to obtain assistance or support from any great Power. He also complained that the interests of this country had been neglected in the provisions of the Treaty. We were told we had received indemnity ; but he would ask what indemnities had we received in return for 2 years of bloodshed, and au expenditure of hun d reds of mil lions. A paltry contribution, of which the share assigned to this country did not amount to a 5 per cent. tux upon income for a year. To him it appeared that in every article of the Treaty the influence of Russia had been exerted, if not openly, in a secret and most effectual manner. It had been said that Louis XVIII. would not have consented to any system of ter ritorial cession. What! would not Louis XVIII. whom we had 'dared on the Throne of France, who only reigned by our sofferance, consent to do that which Louis XLV. had offered to do ; would lie have refused it to w hat bad been called Europa in arms at the gates of Paris? He could not help suspecting there were other reasons besides consulting the feelings of Louis XVIII. He believed the negociaturs at Paris considered the Tench people would nut have consented to such an arrange ment ; in his opinion, they had been mistaken, and had adopted a course much inure likely to inflame the French people against us, by imposing a tribute upon them, and seizing their prin cipal fortresses, fin a period of no less than five years. On the whole, lie could not, consistent with his sense of duty, vote fur the original address._ _ . _ Mr. Dist:ta.ss euntended„ that the cession of the fortresses was an object desirable with the AUie4, in respect to the tran quillity tot Europe. It offered every prospect of convincing the French people that moderation, in future, would be the best severity for their own safety. He could nut agree with those Gentlemen who wished to lull themselves into seen ri ty, because one lionaprte had been destroyed. We must recol lect, that unless prepared to meet: every exigence. a thousand Uoimpartes might alive. or these, reasons he concurred in the Address. Sir S. IZostit iv, in allusion to what had fallen from the Noble Loud the preceding evening, could not concur wilt hint in his opinions oil the subject of interference in the internal govern ment ut• France, either for the purpose of placing a par bream itodiv tibial on the throne, or of dictating to any set of people a government whim' they might be disposed to reject. The eines tion now at issue could not be defended on any justifiable roe ud. % bat ! win; the interference of one power. with a view of setting a new Dynasty on the throne of another kingdom, a anode of acting to be justified In the pros ',ions of the Treaty of 1815. after the tete, a of Bona carte, such a doctrine was not attempted to be established, Sir S. then referred to the letter of Lord Clancarty, of the Mb of Ala., which stated, "'1 hat the Attica were in hostility to Itanaparte, and were at war fur their owa tranquillity, and the cc-conquest of that peace which is desirable. They have no wish to interfere iu the government of France, nor to influence the clieice of the French oath t, otherwise that :Is their mtim•uce may tIC necessary 'bribe se ' entity of Europe." The pas•sge in title letter, he contended. could not be understood in any other !Walkouts conveying an li idea that the war was to be maintained against Bonaparte only; 14 , r the language was, that they (the. Allies) did not wish to plies a successor on the throne of Fleece, but left them to choose whom they might. That was the general understand ing among the el eneh nation, and the Noble Lord must be aware it was so. it was on this 'indeed muting that the exertions which might have been made were not carried into effect. Various• conferences had taken place between the Duke of Wellington and the Frensh Commi-sioners, in which it was re peated, that the Allies bad not the most remote view ot die iating to France. The Allies marched to Paris, however, with Louis in their train, and kept up for five months a sort of guard to ensure ids safety in exercising the reins of Government. Our interference, therethre, was not made until it was found that the French people could not offer any resistance. lint he viewed this conduct in another light--the time might come when the allied Monarchs might join with an Leglish King in placing, by force, on • the Throne a Sovereign i n i m i ca l to' the people of England. The Liberty of the Press might, by the same means, he destroyed, through the representation 4.f fo reign Sover, isms, that the free strictures on their conduct were dangerous to the selety - of the States over which they presided. The Noble Lord had said, that these public discussions were dangerous to liberty, and subversive of the safety of other nations. It was impossible to say what objects he might have in view in respect to public discussions, but at beast it created alarm. In respect to the satisfaction of the French people at their new Government, he could not avoid noticing the regret with which not only the Freuch Legislature received the Treaty, and the Declaration of the King to the Deputies, of his affliction on the subject. Nor could he receive the assur ance of the Noble Lord, that the French people arc well satis - tied with the contributions. On the contrary, they world spread the seeds of war front one end of the kingdom to the other. It would fix their hatred upon the English for having brought down these accumulated burthens upon them. He concluded with supporting the Amendment. Mr. R. Wenn observed, that the conduct of the Duke of Wellington, and his Majesty's Government, was no other than that line of conduct which the wisest goverements had pur sued. All that had now been done emanated from the broad and wise doctrine of Mr. Pitt, published to the Russian Go vernment, in 1805. In that document it was set out, that it would be necessary to re-model the Government of France, in order to preserve the security of Europe. With this view Lord Claucarty acted, when he reached the Continent. When intelligence ut the overthrow of the Tyrant was known, the Ministers of the Allied Powers never held out to Europe that the restoration of Louis was not the object of the Allies, pro vided it met it ith the wishes of the French people. But be yond that, the letter left it open to the Allies to place Louis on the Throne, if it was found necessary, for the tranquillity and security of Europe. This would get rid of the charge of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman against Ministers, of having acted with duplicity. According to the argument of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the moment that the Allies had en tered Paris, and destroyed the power of Bonaparte, then they were to stop (leaving the Jacobin army still existing); and say to the French people, " Now, we base put down Bonaparte, you may choose whom you like." He quoted the opinions of Mr. Fox and Mr. Burke on the subject of interference, in which they had advocated and stated the necessity of inter fering in particular cases. Such was the late interference in the Government of France. In answer to some observations on the subject of alliances, he defended and stated the necessity of them, front the 'treaty of Westphalia down to the present time, and thought that his Noble Friend was entitled to the con gratulation of the country, for having settled, as far as Inman precaution could settle, the peace of Europe, at least fur five years. Mr. W. fluor!: said, the right of interfering, if it had been a question, was brought to issue by the Mike of Wellington, who carried his arms to Paris. The restoration of Louis XV/11. was, in his opinion, the first step, because he was the heir of Louis XVI. unjustly deposed. He hoped that he should not be accused of le !ieving iu " the divine right of Kings." But he believed there was an acknowledged hereditary and pre scriptive right in Kings, the same as in the nobility; and for the moral sake of society it became the people to subscribe to that right. There might be cases where the people were justified in assuming the right of choice of form of Govern ment. The French Revolution broke out against a King who haul convoked the States of his country ; and therefore it could not be justified in comparison with the Resolution of England, for that was against a King conspiring against the liberties of the people. With respect to the opiniou of the people of France, the conduct of the Deputies of Legislature was a proof of the estimation in which the King was held. It must be re collected that a revolting army haul just been disbanded, and therefore the elements of danger must exist hi France, thrown hack as it had been after 25 years of spoliation into the coun try. As to the present arraneement, he felt all tl:c objections urged against it; but with all its disadvantages, he acquiesced in it as a necessary evil. as o ff ering a prompt and efficacious front at the dancer; and thirdly, that it gave England an influence in the alliauce, which in the present state of thing: , , was desirable. It might be said, would you twine upon your country a standing army with your habits of peace? To which he would answer—Yes! if the danger really existed. But he would warn the House against so doing, txdess the danger was apprehended. He did think that the army proposed to be kept on the frentier of France was a necessary evil. As to the expense, if it was necessary, that should nut be grudged, if it did not amount to inure than the supply of 0000 men. He condemned the idea of our attempting, to he a continental mi ,l filmy power, for we should be at lost out a fourth or fifth rate ton cr. It might he all very wail, but he recominsmied tub Ministers, not to neglect the navy, fur then we should be in a state of danger indeed! It was not his intention to move an Amendment un the Address ; but he wished it to be distinctly known that hie opinion %sus in opposition to most parts of it. Mr. J. SMITH thought there had been a great seerthee of British interests in the arrangement of these Treaties ; for he contended, that we had neither italemnity for the past, nee security fur the Niue. He also objected to thetticonsttth tional meseure of placing 30,090 British troops mu toretgn pas . , over which Parliament was to have no controul. He repro (rated the new doetrine of placing this country among the great military nations of Europe; for we wanted nu standiur y er arm, but we capable, if again plunged in war, o f making the most pu . werful exertions. Mr. Hewers would net argue the propr meads proposed to be kept is;, in time ot p i r w er il a d red eo t m o e d b is e c t i o n r s e that, H, wl o te t t i a sc. our u fa ‘ this Treaty did .not afford us a mirth curity. What Treaty could be pointed complete prospect of permanent scent that France ought to have been more had been. But if that had beets done, the people of trance; nor did lie bei Ikea have accepted a crown so muck "tiol; • r; prictv of oar ratablialt ... ' 1 peace ; but sh..,:i r s ft rat:metal area • .11 :, Ai r hail been • 4 1' .., (.71 f --) ii i oi cl i t• t tit o Lrri d p i e d •,. I: .. d • • • t•i• trity i . It hat) •.. •., , y - r,. fiaietlibtl` V• ... it would hay -, , t i C"... iieve that Le " . e l O w l' mutilated. , .... 17 ' ..* • y.-.% . . ZN C