The National Register. — London, England, 1820-10-15 00:00:00

332. The Earl of DONOUGHHORE said, that lie had ne •er heard such a speech on such an occasion as that just delivered by his Noble Film!. In the midst of a pro ereding, which no one had sat to investigate, except aids the most painful feelings, lint which had not been pro ceeded in from other than motives of strong necessity; and, when only ■ part of the evidence had been gone through, his Noble Friend had called on their Lordships to atop short, and throw out the Bill e Was ever such a thing heard of? He would not trouble their Lordships with entering into any argument on the subject. It was enough to mention the state in which matters were, to shew the inadmissibility of the motion made by his Noble Friend. The Earl of CARNARVON, in explanation, appealPd to their Lordships whether be had made any such motion as that represented by his Noble Ft iend, or, in fact, any motion at all! All he had said and contended for was, that evidence having been offered of a syQesn of bribery, on the part of a person who was an agent of the Milan Commission, their Lordshi?s ought to suspend all other investigation till the act of bribery was inquired into; and if it was established, then undoubtedly, that their Lordships should instantly put an end to their proceeding. His Noble Ft iend had said that he had never heard of such a speech on such an occasion. But " let him shew ate," said the Noble Earl, " in the annals of history such an occusion, such a proceeding as the present ! and I shall have no difficulty in 'hewing a precedent for the course which I have felt It my duty to pursue." The LORD CI LANCELLOIC Said, BLit perhaps their Lordships would be of opinion, that the witness should now be recalled. The House consenting, the witness was recalled to the bar. The witness was again called to the bar, and the question put to him : he answered—The first time I had a con versation %film llcatelli on this subject I was cooling from the States of the Pope, and had a little conversation with him; next lime I was coming from the Custom-house, and we were talking about witne,ses; lie said lie hail been to my country about a itnesses; he asked one witness ; that witness asked another, and that another, whether they wished to depose against the Princess, or whether they were willing to do so; and then lie asked them will you come to 31ilan with me? Then we breakfasted together, from thence we went to another place,Carsona, where we dined, and from thence to Milan, to an Inn, in St. Leonard, a.id from thence before the Advocate Vimarcarli, with the other witness. Did Rastelli ever tell yon he had given any of them money P—He told me lie had kept them seven days iu an Inn, mid paid them forty francs. Was any thing said of what lie had given them besides? —He told me lee gave each of them forty francs; but Rastelli gave fifty francs. He had given fifty francs to Bruiser. Was there any body else T—Yes ; I think he mentioned Francisco, Bazar, Rouse, but he mentioned them altoge ther. He added, Ambrosio, of Leghorn, also had money. Was any thing said of their expences —Not about the expences, but lie said when lie went to my country he got a chaise amid paid posting. Did he say who paid the expences at the inn?—He said be paid them by the slay 41 franca. Rastelli paid the ex peaces; they got the 40 francs clear. Cross-examined by the Solicitor-General. Where did the witness go from to Milan ?—From Caz sold, my country, to Milan. How many uncles did they travel altogether?-Twenty eight or thirty miles. Was It 28 or 30 miles to go to Milan ?—lt was. Yon have acid something about linggazoiii. Where did lie go from ?—Rastelli came to my country and a emit to the inn, and then told Bruzzi to fetch Itaggazoni, who was four miles distant. Yon told us of a bill due to you front the Princess of Wives. Has that bill been paid?—Yes, she has paid use tnat bill. When was It paid ?—I was paid part in January, part In March, and the remainder in April, 1919. Was time money paid to you after you had the interview with Rastelli?—When I spoke to Rastelli, I was not paid the whole, I had received the part in January Only. How long is it since the last implant was made by her Royal Highness P—The end of April or the beginning of May. Re-examined by Mr. Williams. I had 84 or 33 men in my employment when I came to this eonntry. The English gentleman of whom I spoke in talking of coming over to this country was a tall wan , with red hair. His name is Henry. 1 told the English gen tleman the slim Ratti had fixed. Since I aria into the employment of her Royal Highness I never knew work done in the room where the statues were. The SOLICITOR GENERAL asked, whether the Italian word pilaster meant colutuu with a hoe, according to the English signification? The Marchese SPINETTI said, it meant a pile to support a roof, and of any shape except that of a column. To Lord LAUDERDALE.—RasteIIi went to the inn at Cavan(); told the landlord to send for Brusti, and when Brum came, Rastelli sent him fur the other persons, one after another. —Exultant/ethos concluded. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to learn front the Attorney General whether Itastelli was accessible or not. In short, whether lie was in the country or not ; as he wished to call him, and put t" cane questions to I • . The ATTOR SLY GENCR AL said, the learned gentleman most first satisfy their LuadsMps of the necessity of call ing hint. Mr. BROUGHAM.—If thin Learned Attorney General will Inform me that Hasten' is not in lii country, I laced not tronble their Lordships oh the subject. The TiA on silt GE:NE.IIA I. said, that Ittestelli had been sent to ,Mau, as a cum ter, with despatches. As soon as lie had learnt this fact, and antieipating it might be neves. aary again to call him, lie (the Attorney General) had sent another cum ier to lo tug him back. and lie believed lie might speedily he es :meted. Mr. Ilinot possible, MO a ;mason who hiss been examined as a Witile•SS fol - the prosecution, has been sent out of the cotiu!ty in the sea vice of the Milan Cola snissioni The As so PIN E% U.LEI.It Al. said, Mr. BrOIMOOIOI had put qu e sti o ns It, the last a Mil /5, wlueu lie CUM . ( ived lie had nu tight to gnat , iii cider to famish gi °win lot again call. ing 'Castello. Mr. fitinenits st.—My Leaned I , !ien,l, or rather those who inya act Ions! Lot: the COM st: uh Lod the 10111141.ailUil lur his eta la ttuti ; and t,r. y who de (elide t , and uu THE NATIONAL REGISTER. his evidence, should have had him ready to he produced whenever he might be called. If there was anything in this prosecution that ought nut to have been dune, it was ti.. sending Rastelli ont as an agent in this Milan Commission. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said it became necessary that the friends of the witnesses for the prosecution, at Milan, should be assured that they were safe; and no person was thought so proper to satisfy them as Rastelli going with bite's front the witnesses to their ft lends. Mr. BROLGIIAM slid not rise to reply, but to remind their Lordships that there was an end to all security against the perjury of a witness, if he was to be sent out of the country. " flow," said the Learned Counsel," can 1 go on with this case under suck circumstances !" Lord HOLLAND commenced a very animated speech, by saying, he rose to advocate the cause of justice. The fact which had just come out at the bar of that House was most monstrous—(blear. hear, hear.) When, at the com mencement of this case, it was contemplated that perjury might he committed by some of the witnesses, it was asked that there should be some security, that the same cheeks and the same penalties would be enforced as in ordinary - cases. The Learned Lord on the Treasury Bench then declared, that although Governmint felt some difficulty in detaining foreigners, yet that be would do every thing in his power for the ends of justice. What now appeared ?—Why, that one of these meo, who may have been bribes: to appear at your bar—(llear, hear, hear)—that this man, cross-examined by the Counsel in a manner that spewed he intended to impeach his evidence —this man has been sent away—(Hear, hear, hear).—" I ask your Lordship (said the Noble Lord), I appeal to the COIIIOIOII sense of the country, if you think that we, or any men have that degree of character as to withstand the odium. Rastelli was au agent. it had been said a corrupt agent to the Milan Commission. This witness who has deposed to some of the most disgusting facts, in this disgusting inquiry, has been sent out of the country. We ate told, as tar-as our Constitution weald permit, every thing should be done to prevent any a ituesses being withdrawn from justice, and yet this Man has been sent away by that very authority which ought to have detain ed him. This proceeding will taint all your proceedings, and this branch of the Legislature. This affair must be set right before we proceed any further. No stronger proof of a conspiracy could exist than this ►monstrous fact; and your Lordships will du well to get rid of the whole matter at once." Lord LIVERPOOL, in the most indignant manner, disclaimed all idea of justifying the conduct complained of, and defied any man to state any eitcunistance in his public life which could give a colour to such suspicion With indignation he i 'spelled the insinuations contained in the speech of the Noble Lord (Holland), which gave an erroneous, fallacious, and inflammatory view of the con duct of the Government—(liesr, from the Ministers).— " lent ready (said Lord L.) to admit that it was the duty of those who are conducting this business to censure the continuance of all the witnesses for the bill in this country until it came to a close; that the circumstances of nue of the witnesses being sent out of the country pending the proceedings, was highly blameable; but I must acquit my self and my colleagues of all kuowlege of the fact—(Loud cries of hear)—and I must say, that the Attorney and Solicitor. General were as ignorant of it as we were.... (Hear, hear, bear!).—How then can we be charged with conspiracy ?" The Noble Lord then stated that the cause of sending Rastelli out of the country was the following : —Rastelli had been employed by the Commission as a messenger, and in bringing vs ititesses over to this country. After the adjournment of the House it was thought neces sary to have more evidence, and ltastelli was considered the most proper person to bring them over to this country. He ass therefore employed, but those who employed I expected him over before the House should meet. This, no doubt, arose front an erroneous judgment, but front an honourable motive; and there existed no intention to withdraw the witness from justice. A? soot, as the fact became known to the Attorney•Gi arra!, lie instantly sent a person out of the country to (sting Rastelli back. Now, whether this was a ground for charging Ministers with conspiracy, lie would leave it the candour of the Howse to decide.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LAN SHOWN L admitted the explanatien as far as concerned the Noble Lord and his colleagues, hut it certainly required the weight of the Noble Lord's character to defend him from the charge. The necessity of a defence from the charge, was one ut the calamities attendant upon those proceedings.—(hear, hear, hear.)—But while the House would acquit han of criminality, they were bound to consider the effect of such a circuinstatice, us (hut of which they had complained, upon the interests of the Queen. The agents of that House had betrayed the trust that was reposed in them . and was it at all fitting to visit the consequences upon the Illustrious Lady:—lt had been an understanding that the wituesses should be all fortlietanitig, amongst other reasons, for the purpose of giving satisfactory explanations, upon points of evidence, to the House. Had not that rule been found must useful in the fuse of Majocci.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—What were the House to think when teat so impart• ant an evidence as Rastelli could nut be produced before he couldshare time and opportunity to prepare himself to meet a euittradiction 1 And all this because the people at Milan would not be satisfied w ith any thing but his presence-so wove that there was safety in visiting England I As if Itastelli was the certificate of (lie disposal .... of the t ountry to treat w itnessesw ith kiudnes.—(A laugh.)—The House was bound to du all that possilily could be elate to repair the etl'ec t of such a course upon the iiiterests of her Majesty.--t( Hear.) The LORD CHAN CELLOit that ht• cerinioly cow side' ed the IlleaStile as estremely If it arose (ruin wind or jud,:theitt, lie should give it no hal slier a naine ; but if it proem ded bout any thing of a worse mouth:l.oo name could lie too bad fur it. " I cannot deny that an allot% anee must be made for the absence of the witness. to the Queen'. Cause, and 1 consider ilia those who sepport the Bill ate bound to 'wog hall hat L. I consider Hiatt • examitattion on a future day (email be so lieurlicial to tit ause of the Queen as his examiteitiou at this itiotueid would be. You me humid then, soy Lot tls, to make a littera' and I urge think, it deed, it is impos•iltle to impair th I injury alto; Cher. flat, cuott (il/11 1 au ,jostice to she Queen, as well as 14 the tothilt), do that t lose titrrc 11.0(Tea.114', in Ili, bt.lAt! of (11. NiUL' Lard CO14'111(1(1 a I.lo'lol, Melt he delivered With great energy, by tailor; upon their Lords!iips to proceed it tilt the evideree until Cie witoet.s should return, nod upon his return, to make a large allliNallCC 11.11 the unioi notate circumstance that liad Occult red. Laid CAIRN AliN'ON.—" 1 agrut, Nitic thc• Noble Lord. hint Ibe hum . ) i 3 its i•parrble ; but l must add, al , d In d •ini; 3u I ?peak ilitt'sciii;g3 the uuly ►emcd) Is to put an end to these proceedings—these abominable proceedings—altogether—(Loud dies of Hear, and other evident marks of a powerful sensation in the House.) No man who wishes well to justice can wish otherwise. The Queens defence never can be restored to the position ft now bolds, and it therefore becomes us, if we are not de termined to outrage all public feeling, all common sense, to disgrace the country in which we hold so high a eharac. ter. and to degrade even our characters, it becomes us t o abandon this detestable Bill. Substantial justice can never be done in this House upon this subject ; and if we pro ceed, we shall be subjected to the execration of all honest Englishmen, and the contempt of all mankind. A system of extensive snbornation has been proved. The witness who is accused of it has disappeared. Those who eon• duet this prosecution are, I say, in fault ; and if this Hill should pass to the other noose, it is impossible that it should he entertained for a single moment, for it would excite agitations of the most dangerous chat acter, dis grace the prosecutors, and overthrow the most glorious of institutions.'—He concluded by moving," That the HOUBC should adjourn to this day six months!" Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, it would be most fatal to her Majesty's reputation to close proceedings in this stage Lord GREY said, he never felt greater difficulty than at this moment. He trusted his Noble Friend would not persevere in his motion; but if he did, he should give his assent to it. The Noble Earl opposite had done himself honour by the manner in which he had reprobated the fact of at uding away this witness; but he must say it was a great deal more than ill-judged—it was most pitons. No person connected ss Oh the prosecution could be ion. rant of the necessity of keeping such a witness as this ready at hand to be examined when called upon. In what situation were the Counsel fur her Majesty? They had trusted to the pledge given by the Noble Earl opposite, that the witnesses should not be sent out of the way, and no .v that they resorted to that pledge, they found it of no avail. It was impossible that substantial justice could be done. To use the words of the Noble and Learned Lord on the ‘Voolsacb, an injury had been done to her defence which could not be a holly repaired. Looking At the whole proceeding, and more partienlarly to the situa tion in which the illustrious defendant was placed by the forfeiture of the pledges which had been given to her, he could not, if the motion was pressed to a division, do otherwise than vote for it. Lord LIVERPOOL agreed that if substantiat justice could not be done, the case should be suspended alto gether. But lie was convinced that substantial justice might and Amalfi be done. Her Majesty might even be benefited by the postponement of Bastelli's re-examina tion; for the effect of it might probably be to set aside the evidence of that individual and all connected with hint. If the House were to suspend their proceedings, they would neither do justice to her Majesty, nor satisfy the public mind. Lords LAUDERDALE and ELLE/MC/ROUGH followed on the same side, against the motion. Lord MORLEY hoped las Noble Friend would not press his motion; a division, in the pres:•ut stage, would be ex• tremely painful to the private feelings of their Lordships. Lord ALVANLEY wished to know who was the person who hind sent Rastelli out of the country ? Lord UV ERPOOL.—I believe Mr. Powell. Lord CARN MIXON would not press his motion against the feeling of the House, but he would only withdraw it in order to substitute another, nit imly, that her Majestj's Coun sel should be asked whether they thought it material to the defence of her Mkjeety that Rastelli should be examined iininediately Lord HOLLAND spoke at some length, and with great eloquence, against proceeding with the same till the fact of the existence of a conspiracy to suborn witnesses should be established. Lord ERSKINE said, as his Noble Friend had agreed to suspend his motion, lie wished that the Counsel for her Ma jesty should be asked if it was material for the defence that Rastelli should now he called in and examined? Earl GREY moved, that Mr. Powell should now be called to the Bur of the House. John dllamPorell thenappeared at the Bar, and was ex amined by Earl Ala Y. Ile staled—l was employed in the Milan Commission.—l am now engaged in conducting the prosecution. I heard the canonic of Kastelli nt this House. I recommended his being sent out to Italy to assure the frieads of the wit nesses now in this country, that they were well; and that the reports in Italy of their mal-treatment were exaggerated. I 'honk( it an act of humanity to do so. Did you not know, by sending Hastelli out out of the country, it would be impossible that he could attend here if called upon?—itartelli went away on the Thursday Of Friday after the adjournment, and L thought he would be bark before he could be wanted. I ordered him to return by the 3d of October. Who did )ou see at the Foreign Office/—Either Mr. Planta or Lord Clanorillinin. Did 'ea state at the Fureipi Office that he had been CAW mined in this House ?—No, but I believe that it was well understo:id that he WkS. Witness further stated that, that he expected Rastelli to return, tis three messages had been wait after him; but he had heard that lie was ill of a fever. Ton question from Lord A LVAN LEY witness said that he had no means of enforcing the attendance of Itasiclli, he refined to return. It ate, agreed that Lord Enna IN a's question to the Queett's Cotrusel should be put to-morrow ttttt riling. Adjourned at twenty minutes to live u'. buck. ELEVENTH DAY OF THE DEFENCE. SATUR DAY, OCT. 14. The Lord Chancellor took his seat on the Woolsack at the usual hour. As soon as players had been read, and the list called over, The Eat! of CAIINARVON rose, and anode() to the motion he had yesterday made and afterwards agreed 10 sti.peuicl. He said, he would noes; with permission of the House, withdraw that motion, and suttustitNte :molter, to which lie litoted there would be little o!ul. citon. But previous to making this motion, lie wished to put a question to the Noble Loud at the h e ad of the Treasury, respecting the pledge he bad gis en at the cousimeneemetit of these proceedings, " that every 1111114 "wild he done to further the ends of justice, in respect to the witnesses." Ile now wished to know ssbether the Noble Lot d had given any instilictions on the subjectoud to whom! 'flue Earl of LIVERPOOL said, be had not given . any specilL; instructions. He had no difficulty iu exploiting 0#