The National Register. — London, England, 1817-02-24 00:00:00

nation before the House, when such a disclosure might des troy ercry chance of effectually putting down such combina tions as those described id the report. The report Win ordered to be taken into consideration on :Friday fur wkirli the Lords wei e siunutotied. PETI fIONS FOR REFORM. Lord HOLLAND presented a petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Livery of the city of London, proving fur re form and retrenchment. He thought, not willisianding the report of the Secret Committee, that the House should ie. ceive every expressioti of the people, as to their distresses,. ave.& if they pray ed for allntia I parliaments and universal suf frage as a relief from their distresses. Notwithstanding the extravagance of some individuals, the people at large had !hewn that they looked to parliament as their only resource, and en long as they did so, the ernraitution was safe. lie de stied that imit er,tl suffrage was a nature!, or annual Parlia ments A legal right of the people; and it was. iu his opinion• necessary to remove such falla •ics from the public mind. He was, however, far from being of opinion that some rentrm in the duration of Parliament would not be beneficial. But for the present, he was of opinion that Pas liamtlitary Reform was unattainable. Still be thought something might he done to diminish the corruption now existing.. At the same time he did not think that reform itself would remove all our dis tresses—that it would feed the hungry, or clothe the naked,. The petition was then read, and laid on the table. Lord HOLLAND presented similar petition% from Aldgatc Ward, and the Borough of Rutherglen.—Laid on the table. Earl Gator said, he also had a petition, prayin ,, fur reform, from the Lord Alayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of the city of London. Toe petitioners prayed for rigid economy In the disbnrsements of the state ; the abolition of the useless and unineiited places and pensions; and for a reform in Par liament. But the petitioners disclaimed the wild and imprac ticable schemes of universal suffrage and annual Parliaments, which he (Lord Grey) asserted was never the law ()tithe land or the right of the people. If such a reform were effected, Instead of the beneficial results expected from it, he believed it would absolutely destroy the constitution of our country. lie was anxious to disclaim this error; and to defend the people from its delusions who, no &Mit, when they peti tioned for it, very little considered the subject, but believed It to be the only means of correcting those evils and abuses which, from the time of Mr. Locke downwards, had been found to exist in our constitution. This opinion was not now so s:rong on the subject of reform as formerly • and whenever a change took place in his opinions, he trusted lie should al ways have the manliness and honesty to avow it. The petition was then mid. The Earl of Glum: Extra conceived the opinion of the pe titioners, seeing no reduction in out expenditure, to be that Reform in the Representation was ohmic likely to etlect it. LOAN To FRANCE. The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, he had on a former occa sion put a question to a Noble Lord opposite, wheelie/ Go vernment had agreed to guarantee a loan to France. The answer he received was such as he had expected in the pre. sent state of the country. He bad, however, found it his duty to move fur papers on this subject, with a view to bring the conduct of Government before the House, not to arraign the conduct of any man who embarked his property in any speculation advantageous to himself'. But it was ano ther question, if Goverument held out any inducement to individuals to embark their property in any particular plan. He wished to know if the Noble Lords had done any thirst to take away the inducements held out by the treaty of Paris of 1614 to persons to remove their capital out of this country ? If this loan was negociated, what security would there be af forded to those who embarked their property in it ? For he bad understood from the late treaty that our government could not refuse to indemnity any man who shooed vest his mon, y in the French Funds, if the French government should WI in its engagements. Now this government was more involved in finane►al distress than at any former period yet the government had dune nothing to discourage the em ployment of British capital in foreign loans. Lord LIVERPOOL bald a short answer to the Noble Lord's motion. Government had not, nor could they have, any eommonications to lay before Parliament. He would now repeat what he had said on a former occasion ; namely, that the government had not interfered either to encourage or discourage this advnnce of money to the French government by British individuals. The individuals concerned, how. ver, were well aware that government would give no gua rantee for the repayment of the money thus advanced by them. The Noble Lord had alluded to an article in the treaty of Paris, which he said gave an artificial credit and support to the French funds at the expense of this country, and had said this article would term a precedent for future treaties. This he (Lord Liverpool) denied; the circum stances attending that treaty were such as he hoped would never occur again ; but they were such as called for extraor dinary circumstances to be adopted with which to meet them, and he trusted would justify the adoption of the article iii the treaty to which the Noble Lord had alluded. Lord Howivu thought one circumstance would occur out of-the late treaty; which was, that this country hail brought four millions and a half out of the pockets of individuals in France, at an expense of seven mill' out of the public purse of Great Britain.; and farther, he would contend that the British Capitalists who hail advanced their money to the French government, were not indemnified by that Goveru- Silent, but by the sacrifice of British e.ipit al. Lord LAUDERDALE replied, and contended that Mr. Pitt', Sinking Fluid did not dither in principle from thriller Sinking Funds. The Noble Lord thou withdrew his inotion.—Ad joorncd. FRIDAY, FEB. 21. SECRET COMNIFITEE— MR. CLEARY'S PETITION. Earl GROSVENOR presented a petition, to the matter of which he was anxious thr their Lordships' particularittess tion, before they proceeded to the Order of the l)ay. The petition was from the secretary to the London Union Society, Mr. Thomas Cleary. We base no room for the able speech which the Noble Earl made on this occasion, nor for tSe ex press words of the petition which he ' , resented. Its Nieto- Cons were in brief, that the society was first established, in 1812, by Mr. Clive, Mr. Fawkes, Col. llosville, Major Cart wright, Mr. Montague Burgoyne, Sir F. Burdettathe present Lord Mayor of London, and many other respectable per suns : that it only performed one act; was never connected, tither in principle or corresponds nee, with the Speweeans ; and has, in fact, ceased to exist for more than three years. The petitioner, therefore, complained of* passage in the re port of the Committee of Secrecy, in which the Union So ciety is identified with those clubs, .ke. which, professing the s! , c • of universal suffrage and annual Parliaments, sought crt:s4vo of the constitution. The petitioner averred, THE NATIONAL RECNISTEL that the London Union Society had not any correspondence or affiliation, as stated in the report, with any Branch-Union Societies, nor with - soy others ; and the petitionte finally prayed that he might be examined, together with the hooks and papers of that society, at the bar of the House. His Lordship said, that if there was any truth in the petition, the Report of the Committee would he subject to a suspicion to which he should be sorry that any proceeding of their Lord ships Should be liable. His Lordship observed, that the peti tion contained statements which it was of the utmost import sure the HODAC should thoroughly examine, because if these statements were correct, the Sect et Committee must have been imposed upon. He hail the highest respect for the Members of that Committee, butt they might easily have been misled by false evidence, persons de:irons of cutartiug the favour of the fLiii:e. The Duke of Moseraose rose to Order. He considered it highly disorderly to impute to the Members of a Committee appointed by their Lordships any motives, such as courting the favour of the which could influence them m the discharge of a public duty. Earl GROSVENOR said, it' the Noble Duke had allowed him to finish his expression, it would have been foond that he had no intention whatever of imputing motives to the Memhers of the Committee. All he meant to say was, that persons, with a view of courting the favour of that House, of courting the favour of Ministers (for what was intended but to give Ministers addilional power), might state to the Committee what was not the fact, and that thus the con ~,, n. o might have been misled. 'this was his view of the sabject, aid u was most important that such a consideration should be adopt ed by the House. Was it to be endured, that upon state ments made by any Committee to that House, and which statements were tittered to be proved at the Bar to hematite, that the liberties of the people of England were to by placed at the disposal of Mr. Canning, "Ir. Braggy Bathurst, Lord Castlereagh and their colleagties (cries of Order)? The Luau CuaNCEI.I.III( declared the allusion to Mr. Brugge Bathurst, eix. to be most disorderly, nor could he consent to remain ten minutes longer in the situation which he held, if the House derided it to be in order. Earl Gn Ex regretted tout di•nrder should have heen created by attempts to call to order, and by the prolongation of a dia. cosier thus created, which was in itself disorderly. It he understood at all the orders of the Horse, it was, that a Noble Lord called to order, should have the privilege of immedi• ately esplaining himself, lint if it was to he allowed, that in speaking to one point, order, a Noble Lord was to go back to other points antecedent in the debate, there was an end to all order in their discussions. The Lout) CHANCELLOR said he might sometimes go too tar when he thought the order of thei r Lordships' proceedings infringed upon; but he was always actuated by a sincere desire to preserve that order. The Earl of LIVE:I:POOL said, that no Lord of Parliament could, in a Parliamentary sense. know what measure was in conteinrlalion, mid.ss it hail been pub!irly stated ; and al though, from motives of eon venience, and through indulgence, intimations were privately given of intended measures, still it was an auuse of that indulgence to make it the foundation of an attack upon individuals. Lord HOLLAND observed, that it was the order of that House, if he at all understood it, that a Peer ehoul3 be allow. ed to explain himself, it' called to Order. In the pre,ent stance, a discussion had been raised upon the point of order, which was in itself disorderly. Earl Guosvason maintained that he was perfectly in order in making the allusion he did. He should have been utterly out of order to have named Peers in that House, ana le merely therefore named those Ministers who were in the other House. After some consideraqle debate on points of order, the Pe tition was read ; and, upon Earl Grosvenor moving that it do lie on the table, The Lon° CHANCELLOR objected to its reception. A long debate then ensued, in which Earl Grey, Lord Hol land, the Noble Mover, Earl Lauderdale, Lord Ersk nue, and Earl Darnley contended for the Petition being received ; and the Earl of Harrowby, the Duke of Athol, and Lord Li verpool contended against it, on the ground of its being con trary to the rules and orders of that House to receive yeti. Lions from individuals, who not being presumed to know any thing of the Report of the Secret Committee, that Repoli having been printed for the use of their Lordships only. Earl FITZWILLIAM, though he had himself been a member of the Committee, and as such, lie approved of the report, on the evidence which had been brought before them, neverthe less wished, as that evidence was now contradicted by the petition, that their Lordships would adopt the amendment which Earl Grey had moved ; namely, that the debate should be adjourned until Friday next, and that it be referred to a committee to examine precedents as to the points on which the rejection of the petition was proposed. The House divided on the amendment, when the numbers were, contents IS—non-contents 64.—Majurity against the amendment, 46. Rr.roßm. During the absence of strangers, Lord Holland presented a petition, praying for reform, universal suffrage. and annual parliaments, from Paisley. His Lordship disciaimed their doctrines; lint thonght the petition ought to be received. _ SUSPEN S ION 01 , THE HABEAS CORPUS. .... ..... On our re-admission, we found Lord Stnstrovrii addressing the House. His Lordship slated that he was prepared on coining down to the House that day, to have gone fully into the subject itself, and to have communicated the grounds on which his Majesty's government felt it iinperatise to recom mend the measure now about to be submitted to the consider ation of their Lordships. Prom the wish expressed by a number of the Members of that House, he was willing to defer the discussion on the 11111, he then held in his hand until the second reading, which lie should fix for Monday, at the same time communicating his intention of forwarding it through its various stages on that night. lie then moved that a Bill, enabling his Majesty to secure and detain in custody such parsons as his Majesty may suspect of intentions against his Majesty's Peace and Government, should be read a first time. Lord 1101.1..tti0 said, that in expressing his approbation of the candid manner in which the Noble Secretary had commu nicate/1 his intended course of proceeding, he s‘ishc,l not to he considered as conveying in the slightest degree any ap probation of the hill which he had proposed fur the approval of that House. The bill WAS read a first time, second reading on Monday. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. moNv4v, run. IT. GAME LAWS. Sir SAMUEL. ROMILLIC consented to put the second reading of his DIU of till Tuesday fortnight. FEBRUARY 24. COURIE OI•' KING'S BENCH. Mr. CASnERD bronglikin a Bill for facilitaling the progress o f business in the coiirt of King's Bench. Read a first time. Second reading on Wlay. PUBLIC EkECUTIONS. Mr. HOLFOR n presented a Petition from John and Thomas Waters, against the fleww ney of public executions, and pry ing for some other mode of punishing crimes. Ordered to lie on the Table. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Sir Pit %sets Buniserr postponed his motion on this subject till after Easter. The Hon, Baronet then presented Petitions from Spitalfields, Rippon in Yorkshire, and Carlisle and its vicinity. Laid on the Table. Lord COCHR A N E presented a Petition from Narborongh, is the county of Leicester, %%hick caused much animated and personal discussion. His Lordship took occasion to quote Blackstone in favour of the doctrine of universal suffrage, skewing, that as the people were subject to the laws, they ought to have a voice in making them. In Scotland there were 270 t) electors. and a population of 2,009,000 persons. Could it, Lordship asked, be contended that the people of Scotland were represented, nr had they voice in making the laws? They had not, and therefiwe were not bound to obey them! ( Lout cries qf order, ord,:r ! Chair, chair !) Thr SPEAkillt said, the Noble Lord must be aware such language vould not be tolerated. Lord Coca it ANC. —" If the House would have allowed ma to complete my sentence —" wha s i .eaneas.-- the Noble Lord had made it too can. plate. Lord Contriver.-- I should have added, " according to illackstone's theory." The Noble Lind then continued He agreed with the people, who always thought coolly, and derided wisely.—( Hear, hear.) He was nut equal to the Hon. and Learned Golden' in who had accused him of mis. leading and duping the people; but he must say, that the Heti. and Learned Gentleman, when making these assertions, should have had some respect for the opinions held by himself on former occasions. The Learned Gentleman was now a representative of a rotten bormiLds ; tint at the time he held the doctrines from which lie had departed, he entertained hopes of being the representative for W e maim ter. He alluded to what had passed at a dilater which took place at the Lon don Tavern, in June, Pitt On that occasion the Hon. and Learned Gentleman clelarcil his Opinion to be, that sittilage should be as extensive as taxation. That such was the lion. Gentleman's political creed at that time, he could skew under his own hand writing. " I will ask him, is it not his own hand vvi Ring ?"—Here the Noble Lord held a paper to sir. Brougham, and there were loud cries of Under from all parts of the House.)—The Noble Lord cooteoded he did nut know whether he was quite !aegis )—but he %%mild read what was written. 'Elie Hon. Learned Gentleman, ac cording to the paper, said .it that that suffrage and taxation should go hand in hind. Now who was their. that did not pay taxation, even in the shoes hr wore, and the bread he ate? Tile Hoe. Gentleman also said, that Parliament ala as s did more good in the last year of its sitting than it did the other is. and that it was becanse they were conscious they would soon have to meet their roust &wilts. These were the opii 'nos of the lion. and Li mined Gentleman then. He had no wish to impute motive to tie. lion. and Leal tied Gentle man; but it was somewhat singular, that lie should publish this his political creed just at the time when it was supposed that he Lord Cochrane, %sunkl be expelled, and that ther e would be a vacancy for the city of Weaminster. He culled the people toe deceived and the duped.; and those the de ceivers, among whom the most hoomira4k men were classed, one of whom he should always uc must happy to claim the ho nour of being acquainted with : a man who had never beim Of any party; he meant Major ('arts% right. --(A gen, rat laugh.) Mr. Beta:wok st always felt pain in sneaking of himself; at the same time he trusted the House wadd grant him its In dulgence on the present occasion.—( Mar, hI ur.)—W litist he thanked the Noble Lord for the frank manure in which he had brought forward this most unfounded eharge against him— one more unfounded, lie would be hoist to say. was never brought against a public man. He did nut complain of those who had pin the brief into the hands of the Noble Lord, nor did he complain of the Noble Lord for muttering himself to be misled by those persons. But he did blame their impatient, in not waiting a few days, when they would have had his fuli opinion before them ; as on the night in which he mode the - observations which had called down the present censures of the Noble Lord, he guarded himself most particularly against giving any pledge as to the vote which he should gin e on this great and must important question. The Hon. Gentleman then entered piton detail of what passed at the dinner, n bids the Noble Lord hail alluded to, and denied that any change had since token place in his opinion. He then said, and be said now, that taxation should bound suffrage ; but lie did not mean the taxation paid by beggars in the street. He said then, and he now repeated, that, in his opinion, direct taxation towards the support oh' Government should entitle to %mirage. Six years ago he held the same opinion, though lie then said it would be politic to take what could be gut of re t'orni, even it' it were confined to the throwing open of sonic of the close boroughs, and thus extending the representation. He recommended this coin se then, bi cause he thought it would be politic to get a rooting first ; and having dune so, then to proceed to the ultimate object. Dud the Noble Lord now suppose that by producing a speech made by hint at a tavern dinner, lie should induce him to swerve from any opi. nion which he might have since taken tin fear of a chart : it of inconsistency ; and, that under that fear he should be now deterred from giving his vote and opinion fairly and conscien. tiously—( //ear.) As to the mean insinuation of the Nohle Lord, that for the sake of occupying a scat %%hada the Noble Lord h d tilled, or for the gratification of being brought into the Ilim•e on the shoulders of a mob, as sonic othia s had been, lie A% mild give op his opinion, he treated it with the contempt it merited. -1 /fear, hear.)—The Hon. Gentleman concluded with expressing his regret at the folly and madness which had been displayed, and the base expedient which had been adopted to separate people, and to gratify party feelings, and the ambition and party porimses ofa few individuals. :Mr. %Vasil) regretted that it slimild have been stated, at any time, that a little step might be granted n ithosit or that a little obtained at first shookd satisfy first amt.; lie was persuaded, that to make any innovation in our Coostitis tion would lie ;attend, d w ith (huger; and, therefore, the lirst step should meet his firm opposition. Sir F. lit nnerr did not r (insider that supporting the first steps to Parliamentary Reform should tie sot 'ken as to pledge any man against going flatlier if fonnil in eessary ; but he is as persuaded, it' such a lieform were adopted as should plaid and voistroul the public purse, the great bulk of the pimple would be satisfied. IVitli respect to the fears which an lion. Gentleman (Mr. IVard) seemed to ono lain of any i iiiiii %dation& in the Conmtitittion why, the Irish P a rliam e nt had been pur chased, and an hut:died new Lumbers had becu added to this