Star. — London, England, 1803-02-08 00:00:00

w Fr '.~ ~~, M , . 4 ‘l* I RI ; ift ' ..l.l ' l l4l .., . , ;I 1.. ) -r : ', it 'l l F ., , , IN I ` i ,f .. , 1 . i ! , . and u Was, irecci. to Mi % ed try . ir,, , t' : rerun wued . )cku ft r.ll, t Ito. ,hem - •,„ . 1 'Ion: . ' ' r• • hie cu I!" HOUSE OF COMMONS. PRIVATE PITITIONS. •KKR RESTRICTION ■ILL. 'I I PdALIAMENTARI PROCEEDIAGS. HOt' , ' OF LORDS, MONDAY, FEB. 7. ir. Grant was heard for the App- liar; in the Sec;eh Appeal' Lawful Rofs, when the further hearing was poßpon .ll .n 3 future day . A. Account of the numher of Bahk of England Notes in ulation from the tit of June, tgoz, to the aft of Auguft, and fur every two months to the IR of February, 1803, was pr,: . ent,d, and ordered to Ile on the Table. I.ords Douglas, Napier, and Cloaca:bury, were (worn and 5. ok CI& feats. Pu.fuant to an order of the Houfe, the Clerk read the Ex ,raCi from the Regulating Ad, rptativc to the cheating Mem l.eri of the Eaft India Judicature; after which it was ordered, m: the motion of Lord Wafingliam, that all the Lords prefent . form a Committee to-morrow, for the purpofc of infped thc lift of names delivered in, and reporting the fame to the Houfe, &c. . - Some routine and private bufineft was difpofed of, after which the Houfe adjourned till to-morrow. kveral new Member were introduced and fwoto, among se,!cm we perceived Mr. Wields. ris from Ireland. and Mr. 1 ears of aStence for ih weeks was granted to Sir G. E. S:t uckliurgb, on account of indifpaition. 10 , -. W. Do Nona rote, agreeably to notice, to move that the . , time for receiving Private Petitions ibould ,re enlarged to the Ath inftant. He was induced, he raid, to make this appeal to th indotence of the Houk, in confequence of accounts he had received from foam perfects in Scotland, who bad Petitions to prefent, which could not be prepared within the time at pre fret axed by order of the Houle. He underftood that it was I.ltetidad to oppofe the application be bad the honour to hal mit ; but be trolled that if the Houk meant rigidly to enforce their kefolutions, they would not commence the fyftem of ri gour with this particular cafe. He hoped the numerous in itances which had occurred of indulgence fimilar to that he In te.cdrd to require would induce the Houle to adopt bit motion. —The motion being made, Sir W. Enrosn oppofed the motion ; which he felt himfelf b-tund to do from the notice he had given laft November; and even had be not given that notice, he declared, that as no par ticular grounds were Rated for this motion, hf Should object to it. Mr. Dv NOM' laid, that he was not aware of the notice which the Honourable Baronet had alluded to ; nor did be believe that the perkeis he referred to in Scotland had any knOwledge of it either. Ihr Demmer. LOR of the Excuroy ea obferved, that it was dcfirable the Houfe and the public mould be apprifed of the time when private petitions Mould be received, and of the na ture and quantity of the private bufinefs which mould be to-men forward, in order that. if private intemits *mild be affedted, the individuals conorrned mould be enabled to pre pare fur the defence of their rights. He thererore approved the willies of the worthy Baronet, to prevent pmeraftination or uncertainty as to a he period alluded to; but yet he felt difpofed to concur In the propofition of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Dundas), beeaufe it had been the mitom heretofore, in mnft cafes, to allow the time originally fixed to be extended for tight or ten days,and beeaufe a deviation from that cuftom. in this cafe, might prevent,or at !cult poll pone the execution of projeds of improvement, perhaps, very important to the public. Sir W.ELVOID explained. The motion was agreed to. ■LEACH OF PitIVILFGC. Mr Ti raid, he held In his hand a paper containing a ceprefentation of a fad which he conceived the Houfc would confider as a rots breath of its privileges. A Speaker's order had been obtained by Men Bird and Moore, petitioners againft the return far the City of Coventry, addreffal to the town clerk, requiring him to allow an infpnftioa of the hooks and minutes of the corporation,to the agents of the petitionen • upon this order being ferved, the anfwer of the town cleri " that be Smola confuk the earpontion on the fubjeet." Tierney raid, that tinkle very fati;faEtory information was received 17 the poit of to-morrow, he ghouls! think It his duty 'o make a motion on the fobje4l; he alto read a hand-bill, kin by the Mayar l calling a meeting of the perfons who had wed faunnionfes to attend the Committee. 14. /wrier a Lid, he hoped, though there was nentotion Wore the Houk, that be might be permitted to fay a few words in vindication of the diameter of a gentleman, very un mifreprefentod.—An order had been Served an the town- N. on Saturday, and his anfwer was not, a• reptcfcrited by Hon. Gentleman--" That he would confult the corpora ." bat that his partner, who had the papers in queltion in . - . . .s cuftody, being in London, he could not inftantly comply with the order of the Hou& ; and to prove to the Haute his carpet &tee to pay every attention to the authority of the Speaker that the molt Strenuous weliqrliber to the privileges of Parliament could require, as there was no pot to London (being Saturday) an expects was fent up, travelling all night, to dare the immediate a- tendanee a! Coventry of this gentleman. In the mean time the town-clerk armed the agents af the pe tionsrs be would Immediately inform the Corporation of the order of the Houfe of Commons, that a meeting might be held et ten o'clock on Monday morning,;for the purpok of comply ing in the folkft manner with the Speaker's order. The gen tleman who was rent for left London yefterday, intending to retirel all night, for the purpore of giving, by his p-efenee, every facility to the °mire that had been made. The Hen. Member added, that he bad no doubt the direetiews of the order alluded to had been fully complied with this day. After fame farther °Venation' by Mr. Timmer and Mr. peel:ern the conditional notice of the former was mtered in the Order Book. The Sheriff or the City of London. Mr. WALCU, prefented at the Bari Wit Petitions from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council. The Grit prayed for leave to bring in • Bill, for railing Money, &e. to enlarge Smithfield Market.— The fecond prayed for leave, &c. to eitablifit a Market. and certain regulations for the Coal Trade.--Tbe third prayed for en advance of Money from the Confoild wed Fond. to enable etrtain Conandlloners to carry into died an Adt for the Im provement of the Port of London. The two Brit Petitions were referred to Committees to re port thereon. The CIIANCLL Loa of the Emmert°, a in giving the eonfent of his Majefty to the application contained ht the Third P= ti. lion, Bated. that the advance required was only to be 'ranted as a Lows, and that it was onderitood that of eetual pewit . = would be made in the Bill (mac payment of this Loan.--This Petition was ordered to lie on the 'Fable. A perfect from the Bark of England, prefented the Ac-rants ▪ were ordered oo Friday laa.—Airekred to lie on the FAIr. he adjourned debate on the Drogheda Petition was refunted. Mr. 81l AGGI explained the native of this gurftion with re &e3 to the manner In urli:ch the recognisance of tlie petition ed bad been returned. A manses fo obvioully °prolog to the kerns prefcribed by the law, that in hit mind there could be no doubt of ite illegality. If it fltould fo appear to the Hook, accord* to the Mitt ktter a' the An. he United that no tiring Wider the fpeeious nettle of a Mi. eel rooltruelio.i or in ipirit, would be attended to fur if the t..rri•t of each p irricu lag ore were to be enttrei tarn, an.l f.aciful tatcrpretationa w ere to be given to the (eyeful mete te p ee tbi. lutijea, the etr .. entt eree would M that the fi mfe wolaid at k Feb take to itkif that )urildidUon which it hat wifely transferred to C...ltatitters. . . _ Tina RhrM Wm. Goodman concbirlarl with moving. That er. Order Me hearing ads Nation Osould bc dikharguL--- Agri:ad tw The Cr MICE LLCM of the Esc- Amur* rofe, and fpoke nearly as follows Sir, I rife in purfu• ame of a notice lately given for me, by a Right Hon. Friend (Lord Hawkefbury) during my un atilt ace, to move for leave to bring in a bill fr.r ..-nolinuir.g the Ad that reßrainsthellank of England from paying in (peek. Sir, I believe, that ch Houle.vrai • the credit to fuppofe, That I. :it • the Indic; *l l. , 7t • . ; i1 ' , ;•111 • • * for * not _C...•••• • W elpte.. l I r • ke34l-: • ik ••• • •. • ' look forward with the fulleß confidence, and I am molt fincerely anxious for the arrival of the mo ment when we (tall return to our old courfe, and the Bank (hail refume its former praaice of pay ing in fpecie. Sir, in moving this meafure, it is not neceffary that I fhould refer to the original ground. It is not neceffary that we (hould confi der whether it be now called for by neceffity. I , fhould prefume, that nobody entertains a doubt on that head, or has the leaft idea that it is a ne neffary cafe. Still Ica, Sir. need I refer to the fufficiency of the Bank, to difcharge its obligations , by payments in fpecie; for, with refpedt to the fo lidity and fufficiency of the Bank, I am convinc ed that there is not a particle of doubt willing in the mind of any Gentleman who hears me. I am perfeftly aware, however, that many perfons who doubted the expediency of the original meafure, may feel great doubt and difficulty in coming to a refolution to difeontinue the bill ; that they may have thought the original meafure unwire, but that having been once adopted, it may be wife to continue it. This was the cafe lag Seffion. Many who thought the original meafure objeflionable, were of opinion, that it would be inexpedient to take away the reftraint impofed, and voted ac cordingly for its continuance. The ground oa which I moved the continuance of the reftraint IA Seffion was, that the difference of exchange was fo confiderable, there was a great quanti ty of fpecie going out of the country, and little or none coming into it. That Rate, however, has been much improved fincc that time. The ex change is nearly at par with Hamburgh, but it is unfavourable with Amfterdam. The reafon, how ever, Rill exifts in fufficient degree to be felt by the' Houk. No ingots, no bullion come from abroad. ' , I thould therefore alk of Gentlemen, whether in the circundlances in which we Rand it be proper to al low country banks to ilfue fmall notes, for which payment will be demanded in fpecie, thould the re ltriftion be taken off ? I a(k, if it be fit for the Bank to be expofed to fuch demands, when there is no influx of bullion, when none is likely to come from Amfterdam, and very little from Hamburgh ? Surely in fuch a (late of things, every body mull think it better to continue the reftriaion a little looser, than to take it off for a tingle day, at the ri(k of the evils which would be likely to enfue.— It is then for the purpofe of precaution I intro duce the meafure. I do not, however, with to un. der rate the inconveniencies that mull attend the reffriaion, but Rill they are only inconveniencies, and the confcquences of taking off the reftriaion might be very ferious. I with the refiriaion to continue until we (hall fee the courfe of exchange Readily fixed. The catdes which led to its prefent unfavourable Rate are not likely, I hope, to recur. We have bad three years of (unity, during which ' twenty millions of fpecie have been Cent out of the country, for the purchafe of corn. That is a drain of fpecie which, I may hope, without pre fumption, will not-occur again. I may be allow ed to hope fo with the more confidence, as it is a cafe unexampled in the hillory of the lag two m ovies. There has been alfo a drain offpecit in con feqiience of large turns of money being fent out of :the kingdom for the payment of our army and na vy in the feveral parts of the world. We have, it is true, a flourithing commerce, but it has not yet had the effeß of bringing back die fpecie thus drawn from the country. When, however, we fee all the reafons operating that are likely to produce a favourable exchange, I am juftified in hoping that fuch an event will loon take place, and that ti e period is not far off whir. the Bank may with fafety refume its former operations. Sir, upon there grounds, I beg leave humbly to MOW, that the Afts of the 37th, 39th, and 4:d of the prefent reign be read, and when that (hall have been done, I mean to move for leave to bring in a bill to con tinue raid Aas for the fufpending the payments in (peck by the Bank, for a tithe to be limited. Be fore I lit down, Sir, I (hall advert to what was urged lall Seffion, to (hew that a motion of this kind (hould be preceded by an enquiry. I have already Rated the ground upon which I propore the continuance of the reftriaion. When that meafure was originally propofed, doubts and fears were entertained refpeaing the folidity of the Bank. It became therefore neceffary, upon that occafion, to (hew its real (late. It was alfo thought. right to confider how far it was neceffary to con tinue the Order of Council refraining payment in (peck, but all that is neceffary upon the prefent occafion, is to enquire the !late of exchange. Now there is no office in which this can be examined ' into and afcertained. It is a matter of general no. toriety, and admitting it to be capable of exami nation in a Committee, it is fcarcely a fubjeß 1 for a ferious Report. As to the Country Banks, the Houk mull be prefumed to have cognizance of them, as they were fanaioned by its authority." ' Mr. TIMM raid it war naturally to be ex peace!, that he fhould be firft to rife after the 1 Right Hon. Gentleman, as filch particular allufion had been made to his condo& and oblervations, ' on a motion fimilar to that before the linufe, i which the Right Hon Gentleman bad brought I forward in the courfe of tall Scion; and it feemed to be infinuated that in point of confillency, he I (Mr. Tierney) was bound to fupport the meafure now under dircuffion. He admitted, that though I originally hoßile to the Romp of the Bank, he thought that the peculiar circumftances of the country lag rams rendered it inexpedient to take 1 off the reftriftion ; brit thole eireumftances no longer exited, and he therefore objefted to the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman without fome previous enquiry refpelting the Bank, and particularly upon the grounds Hated. The matter was of ton muds importance to reit on fuels a baths, for however familiar Gentlemen might be with the Roppage of the Bank, however lookly the fubjelt might be talked of in converfation, or however little it mi g h t b et h oug h t o f by t h o l e w h o (were unconneaed with commercial tranfaaions, it was in the °mkt confidered a prodigy which in 1 its confequences operated a change in the whole order of money tranfaftions. He did not now in tend to give any opinion whether the reitriaion ought to continue or to be aboliffied altogether, l e ut he walled to imprefs upon the Houfc the pro- I i priety of careful deliberation la the occellity of I previous enquiry.. If there was a fubjea under the confederation of Parliament, which called for the molt fatisfaaory explanation, certainly that now before the Houfe was of that nature. The Right Hon. Gentleman indeed had mentioned the Rate of the exchange, but was ,the Houfe to have no other information but from his fpeech ? How few were the Gentlemen of that Houle, whole habits or connexions gave them an opportunity oil knowing any thing about the exchanges? The' Right Hon. Gentleman's ftatement of the ex change's/th Hamburgh happened to be known to him (Mr. Tierney), but perhaps the lime fat might not be known to many others of the Houfe. The only document was the Right Hon. Gentleman's fpeech : was that, he would elk, fuf &int authority to legiflate upon ? Could it be ensued on the Journals, and go down to pofterity to account for and juftify the affent of the Houfe ' to this extraordinary meafure ? Of the neceflity of a Committee of Inquiry to fatisfy the public mind, and to explain and vindicate the condoa of the Houfe to the country and to pofterity, he was firmly perfuaded. He did not, however, propofe to conclude with any motion to that effea, without firft perceiving the temper of the Houk favoura ble to his views, for though it appeared to him highly defirable, yet he would not with to provoke j the trouble of debate and divifion, if the fend menu of the Houfe did not feem to coincide with his own. If they did, his propofal would be to pats the Bill for two months, and to appoint a Committee in the interim, to confider how far it would be proper to continue the reftriaion farther, or to difcontinue it altogether. Such was his idea; but the Right Hon.,Gentleman feemed to think that the report of a Committee fix years ago was quite fufficient, though the Houfe had had no ac count whatever of the proceedings of the Bank ever fame. It feemed to be confidered of no con fequence how their concerns had been fince con dudted : no one appeared to care whether the Bank had fitificient provilion to anfwer its de mands, or even whether the reftriEtion had been aEtually profitable or injurious to its interefts— whether it had diminifhed or increafed the recu t-ay of public crcdit. All thefe things ought to be known, but all was myfiery. No other ground was laid for the motion but that the exchange with Hamburgh was at par, and upon that naked fatt, it was propofed to do away that which fcarccly any circumaance could warrant, namely, the right of the public creditor to convert bank notes into cafh. The Right Hon. Gentleman had confelTed that he fubmitted this motion with re ' lutlance, and he (Mr. Tierney) fincerely believed it, for he really thought that the Right lion. Ge ntleman had, a very then time back, no intention of propofing the continuance of this reltrittion.— This he did not mean to affert from an affatation of any particular knowledge of the Right Hon. Gentleman's fentiments, but the convitltton which he felt, in common with the Houle, of the Right Hon. Gentleman's intimate acquaintance with, and refeat for, the order of the Houk, induced him to imagine, from the notice of the continuance of this Bill being only given at days before its ex piration, that the motion did not originate in the found difcretion and deliberative judgment of the Right Hon. Gentleman himfelf, but was pretfed upon him by the recommendation of others. He trufted, however, the Houle would not adopt this monftrous Bill, at a time when there was even no plaufible pretext for it. when no money was likely to go out of the country, when no alarm prevailed in either domeftic or foreign politics, when no fear of any fudden prefs on the think could be en tertained. All that was mentioned in the !lupe of a -realOn, was that the exchange was not at par. Then of courfe no money would go out of the country. Were not thefe coofiderations fuf ficiendy Rrong to urge the Moire to agree to an inquiry ? It as it not material to thew the country what the Bank was doing? That it was preparing toon. and pay in (peck ; that it was ready to do fo pe when Parliament thould permit. The Bank DireCtors ought to thew that there was no danger in their refponfibility. He svasnotunwil ling to compliment the Bank Diretior% but he would with them to compliment the public, even as they did in 1797, when the original reftriaion I took place, and when they puhlifbed a refolution that they were ready, if political confiderationa permitted, to pay cans for their notes. This refo. lotion did not precede the Bill which fanaioned the Order of Council, and Purely it would he but decent to give the country Ihmething like the fame evidence upon this occafion. According to the Report of the Committee of a 797, the proportion of call) and bullion in the Bank amounted to one when the Order of Council was iffued, and !that tome fhort time afterwards this licit was in creafed to fix millions. Was it not now a fit (tib ial for inquiry, what had become of this fix mil ions, if it was forthcoming to meet any exigency? and if it was, why ()mold the Bank hefitate to ; refume their operation ? They could not be afraid of a run upon them, for who could now think of any material advantage from hoarding gold ? But the Right Honourable Gentleman objeay.to their payment in cafh, becaufe the exchange is not at par. If the Rigl.t Honourable Gentleman refolves to retrain the Bank while the exchange is at par, there are men of the higlieft intelligence and cha ralier, who are of opinion that the exchange will be kept up. But why fhould the Right Honour able Gentleman indulge thefe fears ? His late financial flatement (might to fuftain his confidence. —He there defcribes the furplus revenue of the prefent year at one million. and that of the next year at two millions. Was not that fufficient to proud the Bank and public credit in any fuitable emergency If the rate of exchange, as it now flood, was really to be made an argument for the Iftoppage of the Bank, it would leave a very dan gerous impreffion in the country; and recollsaing the circumlances, the people, upon the probable recurrence of fetch an exchange at a future day, would be apt to make fuch a run on the Bank, as might be productive of very ferions aloft quenccs indeed. The reafon which the Right lion. Gentleman advanced could not furely be the fuggellion of the Bank lli re a ors . If Co, it was very unworthy of them.' They fhould not Iplead any little expence or trouble which might occur m procuring bullion, if they wanted it, as a reafim againft accommodating the Public by payin their own Notes, particularly after th e turnsvaß they had put in their pockets. The public had a right to fay to them, 4 , you have been for the laft fix years reaping a productive harveft from our inconvenience—we only a& of you now to convert into calls the notes for which wr have given you credit fo long," and the Bank ought tb be provided to anfwer this reafonahle They could have HO apology for declining it, unlefa incapacity, and he did not fimpofe that to be the. cafe. If the Bill thould pats, he, in his confcience, believed it to be entirely a matter of convenience. No Bank DireEtor, he was confident, would go before a Committee of that Houle (for he would not take a iPeech), and alien that the prefent Rate of the exchange would be a good reafon for half an hour's further delay in the Wire of fpecie from the Bank. No Dire for could date to fay, at a time when trade was &tuning, pro. found peace prevailing, and no alarm whateyev appearing, that the exchange bring at par would be a fufficient ground for the motion before the Houle. He exhorted the Chancellor of the E:t c'iequer to think on the neceffi:y of allaying the opinion, which were afloat in the country. Seve ral factions agitated the public mind, and each had their literary advocates. One of theft advocatec, in defence of the fyilern of his party, had lately written a pamphlet, intitled 44 The Iniquity cf Banking," and another immediately replied in a pamphlet intitled 44 Money an Welds Inctim. brance." (A general laugh.) Perhaps, added Mr. T. it would he very prudent in the Houle to Rep in between there difputants, and by the Re• port of a Committee fettle their opinions, and fit the public mind at cafe. Something ought cer tainly to be done to diminifb, if not to pot an end to the difgrace of a meafure which injures cur credit in the eyes of foreigners, and difiraas the courfe of pecuniary dealings in our own cctintry. The Honourable Member obferved, that it had been much the fafhion to regret the abfence of a certain Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr Pitt). whom he always heard, when he did attend the Houfc, with pleafure and attention, however he might differ with him in opinion. Now, upon this occafion, he could not help regretting that Right Honourable Gentleman's km•attendance, for he was confident, were he in the Houle, lie (Mr. T.) would have in him a moll powerful ally (The Chancellor of the Exchequer fbmi his bead). — Mr. Tierney remarked, the Right Honourable Gentleman (hakes his head upon this affertion ; and no doubt that is all that will begot out of him. Strange, added Mr. T. when I mention the pro. baSle opinion of the Right Honourable Gentleman I have alluded to, A. (hakes his head, and B. gives a fignificant nod; but when I fay, that if that Right Honourable Gentleman were here he would be cnigent, I hope I (hall offend none of his friends, and I am confident that his confideney would urge him to fupport my oppofition to this motion, if he Arnold come down, and I moll confcientioufly think be will ; for when that Right Honourable Gentleman propofed this meafure originally, he gave the Houle the moll detailed reports, to thew the grounds upon which his idea of the neceffity was founded. The Hon..tdernblr concluded with obferving, that he did not with the Bank doors to be at once thrown open, without due delibera tion ; his defire was, that a Committee fhauld be appointed, compofed of Inch intelligent perfons as formed the original Committee on this lubjed, m my of whom were at prefent in the Houfe, and who would be able to give fu c h a mars of ufeful information to the country as would fatisfy the public of the . iuflice and policy of any meal - ore founded upon it. If Such a proceeding were not adopted, he was convinced the people would very naturally think the meafure propofed by the Right Hon. tientJeman rather an ad of convenience than of neceffiti. The Bank would be condemned, if they fbould lofe the opportunity of this Committee to vindicate their cor4ditft, and the Houfe would be let down rather as 'the • blind followers, or Cut petted accomplices, of the Pink, than as the faith. ful guardians of the publieintetell. Mr. Fox raid, that he did not rite, on the pre fent occalion, to oppofe the prefen: motion, though he could not altogether coincide in opinion with the Right Hon. Gentleman who moved it. Neither could he agree with all the pofitions of the Hon Gentleman who fpoke lad. He withed, however to fay a few words on the general queftion. Th. Right Hon. Gentleman who made the motion bah allowed that it was with reludance and regre that he brought it forward. He could by n means agree, that the argument made ufe of b the Right Hon. Gentleman, with regard In th courfe of Exchange, was a fullicieut round o which to inititute and found fo very important queßion as the prefent ; nor could he conceive i what relped it was fuck as to preclude us Prot the expatation of important bullion. He equall difagreed with the gendral maxim laid down 1 that Right Hon. Gentleman, refpeetingehe effet produced by the importation of corn, which could not allow to have caufed to - very coat(' cable a drain of the fpecie of the country. as give rife to the neceffity of adopting the prefe rneafure; for certainly the exportation of our v. rious manufaltures, had in a great degree repai the large firms, which undoubtedly had been enrred in this country, for the purchafe of th. neceffary of life, of which we had experienced great a learcity. The quelliun of the Courfe Exchange he confelTed to be a very difficult on , and of that nature which he did not well uodcl Rand ; but from what he had been able to collet' on the fubjed, it depended on various clinks * an; thole very different to what had been atrigned.- The Right Hon. Gentleman had raid, that th exportation of money to purchafe corn bad grea IT affected the courk of Exchange. In this. poi non, as he before °braved, be diffeted ; and her he could not but agree with the obfentation of the Hon. Gentleman who fpnke lall, that inquiry wool et lea have the good effect of bringing forwar• the opitti4ns of impartial men, who are competent from their knowledge of the fubjcd, to give the molt decided information, and to elucidate the fait in FT