The National Register. — London, England, 1816-02-19 00:00:00

leleftittegiN he bad given it his support as a means of carrying on the war: lie felt it incumbent on him, now the war Was concluded, to protest against its renewal. With respect to the proposed re lief to the agricultural interest, a greater relict' would be af forded to every class of his Majesty's subjects if the Property tax was taken MI. Mr. HORNER concurred with the last speaker, that it was in vain to expect relief without some ainelioraOun of taxes, and that could only be dune by a reduction in the propeuv:d esta blishmeut.—(%lrar,kcar.)••-lt was a delusion prActiseil upon the public by Ministers, to say that the Military Establishment to large an extent was necessary for the safety of the country. . The thing must be met fairly and houestly ; disguise would not to ; and therefore the only question fur the Constituents to put to their Representative's was this:—cc Is it necessary to keep up an army of 50,0110 nun in the British Islands ?'"Fhat the situation of the country was different now from what it was at any other period of peace, every tune must admit. We had now no formidable enemy to dread—the Nasy and Army of Fiance, Spain, and Holland, were annihilated, and the military means of offeuce of the first Power reduced. What alarm could exist% The fact was, and he must predict it, that if the Mili tary Establishment was kept up for a few years, it would, in the end, be found incompatible with the constitutional rights and liberties of the people.—( Hear, hour.)—We ought to pre serve our character as a nation, by adhering to a Marine Esta blishment, and not to be deluded into a show of military glory, with a view to take rank among the military despots of the Continent. The truth was, that one or other must give way, ur liberty and the constitution would have hut a short struggle with a military govertiment.—(Hear, heir.) Mr. VANSITTART could not think with the Hon. Gentleman, that the liberties of the country were endangered materially in consequence of an addition of 25,000 men to the military es tablishment. Mr. TiEftses' did not dread the addition of 25,000 men; but he did feel alarm at the increased influence of the Crown from so large an establishment, and wished his alarm to reach from one end of the country to the other. The House would dis grace itself if the absent Members were not called over when . the question was discussed—(liear, krar)—to say aye or no to so monstrous a proposition. The only way to retain their places, Ministers conceived, was to erect a military system, that could not be redneed—No ! it must receive an addition of strength—lt was easier for them to reduce the Navy, and pay off ten sail of the line, than one regiment of Hussars. In some quarters a Captain of the British Navy, in his plain tar's dress, did not look to the eye of some persons quite so well as a dressed up officer in the anny, with his whiskers, his mustachios, and trappings.—(hoar, hear)—The Noble Lord might sneer at this too, but it was soy and lie had beard of travellers (the Noble Lord had travelled and seen a great deal of the world) who talked in company of the fine appearance of the cuirassiers and lancers on the Continent; and then came the system of re dressing our army. The Right lion. Gent. then commented on the statement of the Right lion. Geut. (Mr. Vansittart) of the preceding evening, in respect to the finances; and con tended, that out of the 36 millions borrowed last year, 12 mil lions yet remained due at time Bank, without whose assistance stocks inust have been much lower than they now arc. In re spect to the actual peace establishment, it would be, reducing the items, about 20 millions and a half, of which sum about two millions and a half were to be borne by Ireland. Not one pound out of the two millions and a halt' would or could Ire land pay. Indeed, we mast give her assistance. The Right Hon. Gent. had begun with his Budget at the wrong end; for he should have put the ways and means at the top of it ; for in the vulgar old hashionetl nay, before • geuttuesan set up en es tablishment, he looked hew his ways amid means stood.—(Hear, 'ear.) — Bat, income or not, Ministers were liberal enough. For instance, if one of the Allies said, " I brought so many men idto the jeld, you owe me half a million."—" Oh! did you (says the Noble Lord), well, then, here's half a million fur you."—(4 lag'.)—The Right Hon. Gent. objected to the continuance of the Leather Tax, and trust:m.l that there would be a clause in the Petitions, warning the House against any extravagant es tahlishment.—(Hear, hear.)—The people of England would be to blame if they gave them half the Property-tax; if they agreed to it, they might soon expect Ministers to call for the w hole. Lord CtsTLEREAGII defended the continuance of the Pro perty-tax ; and was prepared to prove, at the proper season, that it was not the intention of Government to ape other mili tary Governments as the Right Hon. Gent. supposed ; nor Humid he have confidence in the Government of any country r.titil he saw the civil power getting the upper hand of the mi litary; it would not be safe to reduce the establishment until lie saw the military spirit abated. ' Mr. Wysi NE made a few observations, and then the report was agreed to. Mr. 'VANStrI'AIIT conld not answer the question. It would be referred to the legal gentlemen. In answer to a question from Mr. Wynne respecting the appropriation of the 700,0001. to be paid by France, the Right Hon. Gentleman said between 400,0001. and A/o,ooot. bud Leen paid into the military chest at Paris. BANK TRANSACTIONS. Mr. GRENFELL, after sonic preliminary observations in re spect to the Bank transactions, which he denominated exorbi tant and injurious to the public, on account of the immense profits they made, divided the subject into two branches. The first was, the deposits which individuals lodged with the Hank, time same as with other Bankers, anti which were productive to the extent of five per cent. on the aggregate sum for ten years, aroonnting to about 1t millions and a half. The next health of profits to which he would advert was, the ( normals SIMI W it/NCd to the Bank for the management of the National Debt; this amounted to upwards of 3011,0001. annually. There well: also two other items, one 014,0001. annually for House expenses, and another of between 3 and 4,41001. annually, for the manage ment of the sum of 4,000,0001. South Sea stuck, pul:bawd by the Bank in 1721; but the greatest brauelt of all from which the Bank derived profit was, the suspension of cash payments, and the consequent increase of paper circulation, which he could not estimate at less than 000,0001.; and for this ,inerewe. of their profits; the Bank had principally to thank an A 4.1 of the Legislature. In 1500, Mr. l'itt intimated to the Bank Ins opinion, that the public were entitled to participate in tie pro fits which the Bank was making of the public money and pubic balances in its hand ; and upon that'representation, an ails mice of three millions of money was made to the public by the Bank, for a certain period, without interest. At this time, however, the Bank had balances to the amount of six millions in its hands, and these balances went on increasing till 1806, .at which time they fell little short of 12 millions; that cireimistalre attractine attention, the Bank then came forward with an oiler to advance to the Indiric three millions more, at 3 per cent., thus acknow kdging the right of the public to participate in the pouts, owl acknowledging that they had proms; but was it just that the public sh.anit nave been called on to pay any thing at all for this adv.on r of tiller millions, when there were Iv millions of p:h'•1! r avnn•s 111 011 I!.•.•ds In S. •at 44 tin 1.. nh ha• 6,1 5.a.- .THE NATIONAL REdISTOR. Bier stns of three mirions, s 'thous any interest at all; yet still they had large balances sin their hands; and these different coucessions on the part of the Malik proved that there was nothing in the Act fur the renewal of the Bank Charter which should prevent the public from a participation in these profits. The lion. Member Oleo took a review ot the state of the balan ces at different periods, from 18i4i, to the present time; and contended, that from !eon to ISOS,IIie Bank had balances to the amount ef 8,500,0031. in its hands, upon which they made a profit of 300,0001. a year. From that time, to the year 1811, they had in their hands 5,.',00,01.101.; upon which sum they had made u profit of :, per cent.; and again, from lel 1, to the pre sent time, they had had. 0,500,0001. of balance in their hands. On the whole, they had, for the last 11 years, been making a profit of 450,0001. annually; and for this munificent income they did uothing, b u t merely carried ou a plain common mercan tile banking transaction, which there was not a banking-house iii London or tkestinnister would not readily perform it fur 25,0001. a year. The Getitkman said, he must now again ads ert to thb charge fur the management of the public debt; and whilst lie did justice to the admirable and correct manlier in which this part of the public service was performed, he must be allowed to recommend, at a time when nothing but economy could save the country, that some *nether reduction should he made in the sum allowed to the Bank for the per form:nice of this branch of service and contended, that since ISOO, the increased expense to the Bank could not, on the most liberal allowance, be stated at more than 38,0001. while their increased profits were 153,0001. at least. The Hon. Gen tleman nextohjected to the allowance of 4,0001. a year towards the support of their house expenses, which they had enjoyed ever since the establishment of the Bank. If' the Bank stood upon their chartered rights, certainly this slim could not be taken from them. On Mr. Pereeval*s proposing to suppress this allowance, the .Bank absolutely refused to assent, and that, fur a reason which, in his opinion, was the strongest that could be urged for its suppression; namely, that they hail had it so long. Another item of allowance was, one of between S and 4,0001. for the management of 4 millions South Sea stock which they had purchased in 1721, and which had since merg. ed in the other prlblic funds, and they were otherwise paid by the public. The last item which he had to mention was also one of the most If ingillsir that he could imagine ; it amounted to about 3,0001. peranuum, and was composed of an allowance of one-eighth per cent. claimed by them tar the management of such portions of the Property-tax as were paid by individuals into the Bank direct. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to enumerate the different heads of profit derived by the Bank from the public ; and observed, that taking the sum paid for the management of the pnhlic debt at 440,0001., the profits on the suspension of cash payments at 800,0001., and adding the profits on other bt'anehea of balances, ex. their profits were not less than 1,500,0001. annually, independent of the profits derived from their exemption from the fair proportion of the stamp duties, which was not less than 400,0001. is-year more. These mere profits too, and he was convinced, that if the House would insist on it with firmness, the Bank would not long resist to give up to the Witte some of their overgrown profits. The lion. Gentleman concluded by moving for the appointment of a Committee to enquire iuto the state of the existing engage ments between the public and the Bank, and the profits which the Bank derived from those engagements, and to report to the House thereon. _ Mr. VANSITTART apposed this motion, as considering it un necessary, inasmuch as be considered the affairs of the Bank had been fully investigated by the Committee in Iho7 ; and by the repeated annual accounts since laid bora... the Douse. Neither could he agree with the Ilea. Gentleman in his po sition, that the public onght to participate in the profits arising from the suspension of cash payments ;since the earliest oppoi tunity ought and would be seized for restoring cash payments, though he feared circumstances would oblige him to propose a further extension of that measure, bat certainly not with any view to increasing the profits of the Bank. He had brought the Hon. Gentleman to acknowledge, that more than half the profits of the Bank were derived from the suspension of cash payments, and that the Committee were not to take cognizance of that branch of the profit ; and be was persuaded he shoald prove there was no necessity for a Committee to enquire into any other part of the profits. He thought the present question divided itself into two beads; whether the arrangement made with the Bank by Mr. Perceval in 1808 was a provident one, and whether the public had a right to any larger share in the profits made by the Bank. For his own part, his duty was to obtain every fair participation in the Bank profits the the pub lie. But his opinion was, that they had nu right to attempt to coerce the Bank to any other art angement than that which it had entered into with Mr. Perceval. Instead of there being an increased amount of balances in the hands of the Bank since Ms, they had gradually diminished since that period. If that were the case, surely the public could not call ou the Bank to give a greater participation in its profits ; especially when it was considered, that whatever the profits of the Bank really were, they must be greater in a time of war than in a time of peace ; for in the latter case the deposits must be smaller than in time of war. In the arrangements lie would have to propose with the Bank, the public would receive an advantage of 210,0001. a year, which amounted nearly to half the amount of the advan tages obtained by the Bank from the public, even tuking the lion. Gentleman's own statement. He defended the Directors of die Bank from the charge which had been made against them of a want ofaccommodation to the public. In collecting the tax upon income, the Bank did the duty for about 3,0001. a year, which would cost the public above 30,0001. if done accord ing to the original proposition. Upon all these grounds, to go into a Committee, to ascertain what further profits could be (obtained from the Back , would be a waste of the time of the louse. Mr. BANKF% contended, that what was done by the Com mittee of lmuts was not equal to the expectations of Mr. Pero!. val, but he was swayed by the opinion of the Governor of the Bank. It never was intended by Mr. Perceval, nor was it laid don ii in the actor Dinh, that that arrangement was to he pet manent. And if Mr. Percival had attended more to the opi nions of the late Mr. H. Thornton, and to those of that very Committee, he would have found, even then, that a much better arrangement might at that time base been made with the Bank. The Chancellor of the Excheq. ought to allow the House to ap point a CommiUce, in order really to ascertain whether the Bank could 1114 afkoril a little more to the public service. lie had no wish to dissolve the connection between the Bank and the public ; but a sufficient check should be established on the Dank, which it' not done that night inast he done noon. Mr. RARING contended,' That the profits of Me Bank had been considerably over-rated by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Gren fell). He reckoned the advantages derived from the Bank by the public since the renewal of the Bank Charter to amount to between seven and eight millions. The Bank had also sup plied considerable suns of money in gold during the war, at the sterling seine, when it must have been a considerable sacrifice lo 11 - (o R. mi. Fiedi-vied that She hack cloth! make tio r 1 rent. .1.:111:n 1, 2 . .:14411 1:de,:,d11).,,, 1.1 , t ry thOda( I'EB. 19. -7, which might be suddenly withdrawn f rom the Back f or the way nothing licsev i e ir or them to d i s c o v er, .ws t EbenifaC °liuil.e were app o i nted, there t except in What imontwr the balances of public money is the hands of the Bank bud been changed ; an account c;" which could be laid Left,' e the 'Luso without the rossistance of a Committee. Mr. RAMIE{ explained. Mr. 'rtyitsita had no intention of trespass*, on the time of t h e Hou se , by entering into the details of this subject : but he vim* of opinion that enquiry was the only mode of itscertaiiiiw. lietherThe Bank ought or not to give more accommodation to the public for the balances sufl'ered to remain in it, hands. Lord CASTLEREAGH thought no sufficient grounds had b^en laid tar RD enquiry into the situation and cirem»stances of the Bank ; for if without grounds such an enquiry were gone Into, it must he prejudicial to the credit of the Batik, (and throu,gh it, to the credit of the country,) is the eves- of tiweign nations. He contended that the public bad divided the yearly advan tages with the Bank, arising from the deposits in the hands of the latter, almost equally. The Hon. Gentlemau (Mr Greta. tell) might bring the subject before the House by a specific motion, without the assistance of a Committee, which he (Lord C.) considered as quite uncalled-for. Mr. PoNsontiv said, the enquiry sought for was simply t. know whether the Bank, acting as the Banker of the Public, did render the latter such assistance as was equal to the advan tages derived by the Bank front the lodgment of public balan ces in its hands. How this could affect the credit of the Bank much less that of the Public) lie was at a loss to know. It was impossible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer nut to wish to keep well with the Bank, and that could only be done by allowing the Bank to make as great profits from the Public as possible. It was the House of Commons alone that could, in such a case as the present, become the true guardian the public interest. Mr. MARRYAT spoke in favour of going into a Committee on this subject. Mr. MANNING spoke against the Committee. Mr. tiItENVELL replied, and the House divided—For the mo. tien, 41—against it, 81—majority, 37. On our re-admission to the Gallery, we fonnd Sir C. Most moving a call of the House for Monday se'night, on account of the Property-tax.—After some conversation, the motion was agreed ht.—Adjourned at Twelve o'clock. WEDNESDAY, VER. Lord CASTLEREAGH presented Copies of Correspondence between the l)ukc of Wellington, Sir Charles Stuart, Marshal Noy, Lord Bathurst, tic.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BARING presented a Petition from certain Land-owners, Farmers, and others, residing at Raveldiall And Harleston, in Norfolk, complaining of the hardships they laboured tinder, and stating, that nothing hitt a relief from the weight of taxa tion under which they at present laboured could essentially save them; and further, representing that, in their humble opinion, one of the best modes of lightening the present weight of taxation, would be to reform, as far as possible, the reesent extravagant and enormous expenditure of the Civil List, and to introduce, as far as possible, economy into every department of the State. The Petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Ttenhey Wished to know from the Noble Lord if he and his colleagues had in view any plan of reform and re trenchment, agreeing with the hope held out in his Royal High ness's Speech;aud whether they had determined on the redaction of any of the public establishments of a civil description. He considered that rednction should take place in the departments of State as well as in the Army and Navy. He wished to know if the Noble Lord was prepared to state any contemplated re duction of this description. Lord CASTLF.REAGH said, considerable reductions of the de smiption mentioned by the Right Him. Gentleman had takeu place, and more were in contemplatiun ; but he was not now prepared to state precisely what those reductions would be. Mr. ARERCI/ONIBY wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) on the subject of a report he had recently hoard respecting the office in the Exchequer of Irelaud, held by the late Elul of Buckinghamshire. He had heard a report to which lie could not attach credit ; namely, that at the very time the Right Hun. Gentleman was assuring the House that this place should he abolished, or at least reps toted, a certain Irish Judge had interposed, and given the ap pointment to his son. Mr. PEEL assured the Hon. Gentleman, that no person in the House or out of it could have experienced greater astonish ment than he had done, when the report, to which the H ou . Gentleman had adverted, first reached him ; and he was the more astonished and surprised at it, because, from the reign of Queen Elizabeth down to the present time, this place had al ways been considered us hi the gift of the Crown ; and when he (Mr. Peel) stated to the House, that he would introduce a Bill fur regulating the office, lie had no suspicion that any other person would have claimed a light in it. lint he bad no hesitation in saying, that, in his opinion, should it appear on investigation, either by this House or by a court of law, that any individual lied a claim, lie saw no reason why the House, if it should consider it expedient, should not introduce a Bill fur regulating the office. Its reason for mentioning the decisimi of a court of law was, because the office being of a very an cient standing, having been created in the year 11011, it did appear to I le‘irable that some little time should be given for enquiry and investigation, and to ascertain what fees were legal and what were not. Mr. ROSE said, if the appointment to this office did not vest In the Crown, it must belong to the Exchequer of Ireland, and could not be the right of any individual. ' Mr. Bnoutataa - did nut think it material where the right vested; as by the Ncsolutiun of the Howe if was declared, that on the then vested interests expiring the place should be abelished. Mr. PEEL doubted if the Hon. Gentleman as correct in this opinion. Here the conversation terminated. NAVAL ESTIMATES. In a Committee of Supply, Sir G. ViAItIIENDF:II stated the estimates necessary for the Naval Establishment of the country during the peace. He trusted he shotild be nble to satiily the House, that es cry at tention had been paid to economy ' consistent with the safety of tic country. The peace establishment must depend on s ari oils circumstances arb lug out of commerce. In respect to foretell stations,--in the East Indies there would he no addition. The Cape station, which is a new one, and connected with St. He. lona, as well as the Mauritias, would call fur a very consider. able number of men, according to the opin;on of . the distin guished Admiral commanding on that station; 11 ships would therefore be employed. In the Mediterranean there would be a 7.1-gun ship. substituted fur a 50-gow. A small squadron would be stationed for the protection of the growing trade in Seeth Americo and the Brasils, the merchants having applied to the Admiralty for it. This was also it new station. In the Jamaica and Leeward Islands a small reduction of the Naval ail I with ouch Out would Ls . ,U.:isnied 04 FE the Nor 'lron fl 4 t: vre WI I I . 'woo would I v.hich, i owing foreign at the be sho • • d off , a the numb ■umber u 27 sloops seamen, 11 vice of Mr. Po the neces vernment as a peril. former w. tack. NV can war, phant, an harbours. united Get . - - . ;,, , there • • .c were app o i nte d , be suddenly withdra wn f rom the Hank for the FEB. 19 . 1 FF.B .. .THE NATIONAL. REGISTEX • ...._ the Nord an of ilia, m iri u ns %%matins any interest at all; yet still which might public ser'w/ce Even if a Committ e e ;id large balances tin their hands; and these different 'lron AS 11 00113 on the part of the Bank proved that there was was nettling itrW l l . or them to discover, except in hbat inanlit.r 1 there Wot Vin the Act fur the renew al of the dank Charter which the balances oh' public money is the hands W' the Bank hud bee I f iwoter prevent • %%Inch mon • • fit the public from a participation hi these profits. changed ;an account c; • .maul be laid Left,' e the 11 a w o mid ea °us,: , on. Member Oleo took a review of the state of th e balan- without the assistance of a Committee. hich, in different periods, from litini, to the present time; anti Mr. BANitiat explained. frigates t, dell, that from 1.306 to t SUS, the Bank bad balances to the Mr. TIEnN la had no intention of trespassing on the time Or division c t of 8,500.001. in its hands, mom which they made a the !louse, by entering into the details of this subject : but he seamen,‘ of .;00,0001. a year. From that time, to the year 1811, was of opinion that enquiry was the only mode of tiscertainin.• owing to ,td in their hands 5,:,00,01.101.; upon which sum they had wlietherThe dank ought or nut to give more accommodation to foreign tr t profit of :r per cent.; and again, from Ibll, to the pre- the public for the balances suffered to remain in its hands. Establish me, they had bad. ajmn,unol. of balance in their hands. Lord CAVILEREAGIT thought no sufficient grounds had b.en at the elo 'whole, they had, for the last I t Tears, been making a laid for an enquiry into the situation and circumstances ofthe he should •• . ' i ncom e ; . grounds such ' enquiry h a d Jost s of 450,0001. annually; and for tHs munificent Bank for if without d nothin. , , but merely carried 013 a plain common m ercan - it must he prejudicial to the credit of the Bank, (and through sward of liking transaction, which there was not a banking-house it, to the credit of the country,) is the eves of foreign nations. paid off, a ula. or Il est • stir would not readily perform it for lie contended that the ntshlie 1,01 A;.,• i 1 .. th em namth be united Hon. Get dition to large an e Mr. VI the Huns L ' Malt, Slat quer Bill I I for. Ile agreed to —Adjoin Three 1 The first the secor second t 1 ordered I On the for the had vaca out havin Mr. Li I Bill to re which he • without Mr. I), e leave mip the recos petition n e , • Mr.Bi offer tn it bOtllli principle was sue t the disa; ✓ Lem tliro to menti strongly it much on in which ✓ cern of I d had into: town tie, there cot favour ui united it that in I tia alinand, Cnncludt a• treaty b. e to the ss if gaged country :Some tin • ' a were en Y Wellesle of the II cogent tt tlnguish, if fleeted s view.] ' Marquistt His law with an stitut ion take the effect th tt of the ; were ea kegency it Regene3 1, interpos by Ferd victims. o relation! , • the Lwd, tow in order Allies of struggle icnorant t' every ov his fate. • , of the ye n all over nand his the Encl drawn; s " I- power, s :such coo diately that he c Ircrdinisr Valency! IC and rein al and to 14 N