Star. — London, England, 1803-05-28 00:00:00

oa ice be to that his Majeav would be gradoaay pleated to avail himfelf of the difpolition manilefied by the Ellyn or of Rtiffia to mediate between this country and the French Government, which dill - toil:ion might not only lead to the fpeedy and honourable termination of the prefent cornea, hut to produce the molt bene ficial effects upon the general tranquillity and fafety of Europe. The motion being read from the Chair, Lord HAWKESBUR V WIG to Obiera to the mr,.ion upon two grounds—firfl, that th,r, teas no fair pat iia mcntary ground laid for its adoption ; and fecondlY, that as no fuch ground was laid, the Houle fitould not, under the prefent circurnitances, accede to a mo. tion which could not be proctudive of any gond, and might do harm, by betraying indecifinn. For the conflitutional right of the Houk to interpofe its ad vice upon the exercife of any branch of the Roy:.l prerogative, and particularly as to peace or war, he felt as much refped and regard as the Honourable Gentleman, but he contended that before filch inter ference was attempted, a good cafe ought to be made out. As the Conaitution veaed certain powers in 'the Executive Government, the inference naturally was, that thole powers were not to be retrained or dilated to by any other branch of the Legitlature, but where they appeared to be abafed. There were only two cafes in which it was the province of any Honourable Member to recommend a nieafore to the Executive Government—the one, where his Majelly's Miniaers negleCted to do that to which it was their duty to have attended; and the other, where the meafure recommended was sehillv dlferent from the fyftem which thofe Minitters purl - vied. Now upon neither of thole grounds did he think the prop:4l6mi of the Honourable Gentleman could be furported : for however fome Gentlemen might he dilpofed to eenfure his Majefly's Minifiers, he believed there were !carte any who would charge them with ne sleeting any means that could be refr.rted to to pre. serve peace with honour ; and in proof t , f that difpo. fitiorr hehad only to refer to his M 'jetty's Dcelarat ion, where it was expreffed in the flrongeit terms. Hoe all Europe might fee that his Majett y was even now ready to enter into any arrangement coafiitent with the dignity of his Crown and the effential intereks of his People. He would afk, what could be the motive of Inch an appeal, but to thew the fincerity of his Majeav's %vacs for the reftorlion of peace ? and after filch an appeal he would all alto, was it poffibl: that any blinißer would adviie his Majelly to refilfe any mediation that was likely to produce acceptable terms of peace ? With retped to the Hon. Gentleman's obfervations on the general Rate of Europe, be was not at all difpofed to differ with him ; but as to the pradicability of the coalition he had deferibed, he could not by any means agree with him, and the ex• perience of the laft ten years forbid any hope of Inch a league aCting lung and Readily in concert for fuch an objet. Though filch a concert, he would readily admit, was in the higheß degree defirable—a concert not to be fettered or damped by little confined views or by feparate interetls, but proceeding on fair, broad, and liberal grounds ; yet he was not fanguine in his hope of witneffing it. He was aware that Ruffia was the power which it was moil for the interefi of this', country to conciliate, with a view to avert the evils and. to produce the good to which the Hon. Gentle man had alluded ; and without within to provoke any difrention upon this occafion he would fay, that one of the reafons he had fft acceding to the Litt peace was, that during peace there might be an opportunity of procuring fume continental alliance, of which there could be no hope during war, and which would ferve to fix a harrier to the career of aggrandizement to which the French Government was mantleßly dif pored ; but notwithltanding this with, he could Rate with the utmolt fincerity, that he never omitted any 1 endeavour that could tend to preferve the peace in violate; his endeavours with regard to an alliance were merely for a concert of a defenfive nature, fuch as the Honourable Gentleman had referred to in a part of his obfervations. That alone was his °lie.% 1 and with no view whatever to renew the war. How ever little might be the difpofition of tome parties to do juftice to Minifters, he hoped this at teal, they would acknowledge that nothing was omitted to pre. terve the peace ; and be taw no change in the Rate of things that could induce him at all to calculate upon the probability of its rcfloration from the adoption of the Honourable Gentleman's motion. There was nothing feafible in the propoßtion alluded to by the Non. Gentleman. He had Rated that it would have been gladly received by Minifteta at any period of the r negociation. What, in point of fad, was this pro polal ? Why, that if any difficulty arofe between the Zritilb and French Governments, in the communica tion of their fentiments to each other, that the Roc Tian Ambaffadors at Parig and London fhould facili. we that communication, and that they might be the mediums of explanation. Now, he would all of the Houle, after the very proteaded negotiation they bad witneffed. after the (tate of anxiety in which they had known the country to have been placed, whether Minillers would have been juaifiable in contenting to any farther delay, where no mediation likely to be el (alive had been offered? That the French Govern ment fhould have expreffed its willingnefs to avail ittelf of the mode of communication propofed, was not to be wondered at,as, had this country contented, ft would have afforded the means of continuing for Tome time longer, that fyftem of evafion and procra. Dination which the papers on the table fufficiently es pied, and which teemed to he the policy of that Go. wernment to purfue. The Hon. Gentleman had Rated the advantages to he derived from the mediation of Ruffin, not only with reference to the particular cafe of the points in difpute betwixt this country and the French Republic, but with a view to the eftablith. ment of a general guarantee for the protedion of all theweaker flatesof Europe. With this opinion he molt diftindly coincided. Of the importance of the me diation of RuWsa, no man, polkaing enlarged views of national policy, could for a moment entertain a doubt. If fuch a mediation could be procured, it would not be contended by any one that it would not be peculiarly advantageous. An allialion had been made to the fyftem of naval neotrality which had been let up by the Northern Powers. He had much fatisfataion in Rating to the Houle, that with the ;peat majority of refieding individuals in Ruffia, and particularly with the individual. compoling the Government, a more wife lyflem of policy was now milted. Views of an enlarged and comprehenfive nature were indulged. It was allowed that the in :ergs of Ws country, and of Ruffta, were in crcry I po:nt of view conspatrnle. A decided opinion was med, that no til_ful purpJle could be promoted by prettily.; the neutral ciiietlion. The frig was, indeed, that this quellion was brought forward under the reign of the late Emp: cis, in %hole char:after the pride anal the vanity of bein7 at the head of a coali tion, operated more powerfully than any confidera• thin; GI - re:a and permanent utility to her Empire.— It could not be for _,tinten that Raiffia polletled no mercantile. marine, mil that if the prefent relations of the Tot kith Empire continued, a mercantile ma rine need could, to any great extent, be formed:— The only cont . :y:7:sec of the eflablifhment of the neutrality to be contended for, would therefore be to introduce into the Baltic, Powers whole influence it was the obvious interell of Ruflia to counter:4ft. Ile could not too wrongly pro's on the Houle his convic tion of the extreme importance of the co-operation of Ituilia in any plan to counteraCt the progrefs of ' Fiends ambition, and he could fairly atfure the Houle that any meafure calculated to promote this objeCi was one which would meet with the warns concurrence from Minifters. His chidlion to the I Gentleman's Motion was, however, Pimple, that it had been fopported on no Parliamentary ; ground. It had not been proved that Mitsitl,rs had thewn any indilpolition to accept of this mcdiatiim ; and tiil this were proved, he mull contend that the Motion was unnecefrary and inexpedient. In the cons:lotion of his Majells's Declaration, on the con.. trary, a dirpolition to accept of any arrangement by which an amicable adjntiminst could be obtained was clearly laid down, and after tech a declaration he could not fee what base:Si:La confequence could arise from prefliog the motion. On the other hand, it might have a very unfavourable cffcel on the Mate of the public mind. It might unhinge the exertions of ) the country, and load to expeinations which were not to be realised. He would not fay that the hope of mediation was altoorilier romantic, but he would contend t:::tt hope. ought not to be held out to the country which might be dilappointed There were the grounds on which he obi:fled to the motion. To the principles of the Holum ruble Gentleman's fisted), he had no poilible objection. They were principles in which all were aqiced. As it now Bond, ho .w -ever, the motion could lie produftive of no good, and might be attended with confiderable evil. He flintild, therefore, as the molt convenient Way of difpoling of it, move the previous question. Mr Fox explained, and laid that he entertained no fufpicion whatever relative to his Majelty's Govern ment, he only wilhed more forcibly to peels upon the Houle the apparent propriety of holing no opportu nity of any mediation proceeding from proper mo tives, either direly or indireelly from the Emperor of Ruffia, whore co.opet ation with its appeared to him fo eflentially beneficial to this country. Mr. Pirr fpoke in fubilance as follows Sir, in riling upon this occafion, it is no t my intention to detain the Houle many moments. In the prefent important crifis cf affairs, I am Pure there mull be a common with and a general feeling that it is not de finable to peels into view any differences, or to peels the Howe to any divifion upon topics of minor impor tance. Whatever I may think of the Hon Gentle man's propofal, as a motion of advice, in the afloat circumftatsces, with mot, nay, I may lay with all, of the general principles of the fpeech on which it was grounded, I moll heartily concur. I heard, indeed, the fpeech -of the lion., Gentleman with infinite fat& fadion ; and that fatisfaelion was heightened by nb ferving that my Noble Friend, the Secretary of State, received the fenriments with that approbation which left no doubt on my mind. that, if any etre& can be given to thole principles (and it belongs to the Exe cutive Government, in the firft instance, to give them application), no favourable opportunity will he lout of putting them in pratetice. It would be strange how ever, if I had not heard with approbation the pi loci pies laid down by the Hon. Gentleman. They are the principles which, in the hell times of this coun try, induced and enabled this Houle to contribute to the general liberty and independence of Europe ; to fuppot t the rights, and retires the wrongs of minor Powers, and to oppork a foccefsful refinance to the encroachment of ambition. They are the principles which (more than any paffirmate and national oppo. fition toFrance proved, as France hasbeen fo many falls, to be the rival and Almon the national enemy of this conntry), led us not to confider the name of any particular State, or the piejudices of local limation, or the dielates of feparate interell, but prompt. ed us to let ourselves in oppa.lition to any Power, both, as in the firli milance, it threatened the re. pole and the rights of other States, and, in the le cons', as it areeted the independence and fecurity of Great Britain. I rejoice to be able on this occa lion to agree with the Hon. Gentleman in his gene ral principles, though I cannot but remember there have been times when the Hon. Gentleman differed from me, on the application of thole principles, with I a vehemence that looked very like an entire condem. • nation of them. If, however, he does admit the prin ciples. I rejoice, for the fake of the country, that he I has hated them in a manner fo clear. lb juts, and lo fatisfaelory. They are the principles on which the greatnefs, the glory, wed the profperity of this na tion has been reared, and never were they Ilruggled for more glorioufly than they were during the tall war ; and it was only when I law myfelf compelled, by adverfe circumnances, to delpair of the effect of their application, that I looked to any feparate • larrangements for this country. They arc the princi ples upon which I found myfelf jiaftified in propofing , to the Houfe large fublidics to Continental Powers; , they are the principles on which I have thought that it was jultifiable to facrifice our private and separate interests to procure greater advantages for our allies, and to promote and confolidate the fecurity of the general fyfiem of Europe. They are the principles that (imported me when I found myfelf obliged to differ from feveral friends, for whole talents and opi nions I entertain the highen retina. about the man ner in which the war was terminated. It *vas thole I principles which, after there was no longer any hope of improving the fituatiort of the Continent, and pro- ; moting the Tenuity of the general fyflem of Europe, by any feparate efforts of our own, led me to think that, in making terms for ourselves, we were more at liberty to yield con fi derable facrifiees, with a view I to put an end to the evils of war. than we should' have been had we fought peace, by the defertion of 1 ourallics, and an abandonment of the cattle of Europe.' But far be: it from me to enter upon thole topics to call forth ddfactue df opinion, and to provoke for- Mcr &finites. I anode to them to Mew that the prin ciples I now applaud are not new to me. My api probation of theta is recorded in my pail cond•ta. I ant glad that the Honourable (hod-Allan has pio• claimed them to much pre:Pion an.l force. I hope they will have the benefit of his great authority, and ;h..: teetinimendation of his great talents, (and tier authority thy cane it hay,...), to remove oh- Ix! ich have flielte: ed cot pel;, a ps e:1 see OAT) SV;!S ground fir, Eame, againa al! c•irr mai eitto.i with the of Earopc, and , again( Licrilicin7, in any citcontri titi:es, the feat( I pot tiiin Britilli interctis, for b tiACCC :and Fre fervation of the Continent. But, while 1 apptove the principle of keeping a watchful eye upon the Itate of the Continent, I n. - .t mean that, on every 0z....11i0n, tp.on every movement, we otqi . l,t to inter (ere with Continental affairs. All I fay P., that no great eon vullion, which thall unhinge the ellablifhed intetells, and cliifolve former relations, can take place without involviag confequences highly important to Great Britain. We ale nit bound, however, to take npon ourfelves to lute , fcte, even when interference would be delirable, unli•fs we are joined by thole whole co. I op.sration wiouid be neceftare to give cif...a to that j interference. But whether for a feafon of war or of peace ; whialter in the view of I,,tiving energy to I our arms, or le.atrity to our repolc whether 1%4111 a view of profewing war by neg o ciation, or refloring peace aloir scar has broken out, it is the duty or. the Miratters of this country to avail thernfelves of the good offi. cc of powers v ith whom it muff be the interell of this country to be united in al lance.— I The lion. Gentleman very properly avoided de . ..61.1 Mg any mode which the plineiples he laid down might he applied to the mediation of Ruin t• Indeed it is impala:le to point out the mode of application, without knowitig exaaly . the circurnflances in which it would be exerted. Ilb therefore, upon the fallow the Hon. Gentleman's example in avoiding that detail. It will appear whimlical, how ever, if I now kern to narrow the principle of conti nental policy which the Hon. Gentleman hai fanelion ed. This, nevertliclels, I venture to (late, that, if there can ante out of the mediation of the Emperor of Mafia, any chance of producing a genetal fy(lem on which peace could be reflored, and confirmed by refpeetable gnarantets—a peace by which not only the objei!ts in difpnte between Great Britain and France, but other points relative to the date of Fat rope, could be adjo fled, it would be a confummation fo important, that to obtain it fume arrangement even lets advantageous to the County in a feparate view would be admiffible. What that arrangement (hould he,either as to thegencral fy nem or ourparticu far interell, it is inpoffible beforehand to determine. It will depend- upon all the circumflances of the cafe. On the other hand, if that fyftem were not attainable, our interell would prefcribe other views and other precautions. Though unwiliing to feparate ourfelves from the Continent—though willing to make Come tit:Jun;(3n from the mom of our own demands, and from the means of feparate fecurity to augment the Ilrength of the general fyllem, it might happen that we Ihould be left, without any fault of our own, to maintain a feparate fly it7gle. If we know that France entertains views of holtility towards us; if we know that we have tin our hands ftrong and impregnable means of refinance ; powerful and effectual means to' defeat that holliiity with which we have been particu larly threatened, then would it be elpecially incum bent on us to provide, that any fribaitute for our fe curity which general arrangement wouldafford lhoutd be folid and efficient. If our fecurity is to depend arson our own tingle efforts, and to be maintained by our own feparate arrangements, we have in our power the means ; nor (hall we put to hazard bi a feeble policy what Britifh valour has gained. To confoli- I date our fecui ity by the general fecnrity of Europe, is undoubtedly deferable ; as well as to provide for it by particular and feparate arrangements. To unite both in their refpative degrees mull be that which is molt deferable; but how far each will be earned mutt be regulated by eircumnances. So much I thought it necelfary to hint, that we may not be turned into the oppnfire extremes of, nn the one hand, neglect ing the Rate of the Continent altogether, as condu cive to our fecurity ; and on the other, that we may not look to any continental arrangements with fuch confidence as to flacken our efforts, and to abandr.n our feparate means of vindicating our rights, and prelervinq by war that fecurity to which we are enti tled ; midis, like moil of the States of the Continent, we are ready to fink into lubjeetion to the power of the A ggreMons and outrages of which we complain. So much upon the general principles laid down by the Hon. Gentleman, the 'plaice of .which I fo lfrongly feel. Neverthelefs, unlefs tome ptaltical benefit is to be derived from preffing•the - motion, i hope the Honourable Gentleman will be inclined to with. draw it. To prefs it to a divifion at the prefent ran. ment, would be attended with one of two inconve. niencies : either the previous quellion would be ear ned, by which there might be room for the mikon ftruaion that one part of the Houfe was hollile to the principles on which the Honourable Gentleman argoed; or, on the other hand, if the motion were cnried, it would imply a doubt that the Houfe enter tained a forpicion that blininers did not concur in the priniiples In well laid down in the Hon. Gentleman's Ipeech, and were unwilling to give them effect; a fuf picion for which, after what has been Paid by my Noble Friend the Secretary of State, there appears no foundation. I therefore hope that the Honourable Gentleman will rcfcue the Houle from this dilemma by withdrawing his motion. Mr. Fox, in ex planation of fome obfervations which fell from Mr. Pitt, raid, this was one among other difeuflinns in which he was not fo fortunate as to he underflood with regard to what he had Paid relative to continental connections. He had certainly dig-ap proved of the application of that principle during the lan war, becaufe he then thought it was bad to recur to the example of former times. He did, therefore, during the lan wit, defpair of any advantages that were likely to arife from filch connections, according to the mode in which they had been formed. The Right Hon. Gentleman who fpalte tall, found the impracticability of thole principles to which he allud ed t and he silo defpaired of them, becaufe he failed in his efforts of deriving any practical benefit from them. " The only difference then between us," Paid Mr. : Fox, " is. that I I liad defpaired of them three years former than he did." He faid, one reaton why be had fupportcd the Treaty of Amiens was, becaufe doopplicatioa of thole priocipies had flattered awl: , 1 .1 • interell on the Ccminent null and vo;t1. But then he i j tt,uld n. ; g „ ; , i n:: c extreme, at. I t iv, that t :„:caufe we !Lid I.li;ed trom an improper ap i ;tication the print I;•;„ is tittAild Le. ado; •es; 1.1 i•i; toil:lnce • thatescr. 1:121.• 1: rd . .ttrah!.:G.;l•lem.t.. dated, ' that 1ic5.1 t!: r! tt. • c:YeT into , uch colln s l .tiot.,. th.! e • oltrgeths• t•gree with him, the • .11::e et th.tt loud depend 1 an the l a c t ht 1... I :n.. : et:old tiff Ire Ri•;;t 1 i a. Get, , !. v-:: ; •:'te ! 1 in to with- Jiaw ?;!. t. n, a. .1; the 1•1 1.•;tsl :;.at he 11 tti no i:ait! , n 1 ,t. t. 1.;; ••; g d d ty, ! .41.1 itoi 1:,r!!!;:r VL:, .1 !:ca; t itring oy charge of air,4 1 :.!1 I.i. f•I .!,at he it I,l,l.znJd it is-;is n , :tr.ri^•t,, tir:! , a med.:wn :tad been ,;fre•cd bt t;•.- 1•;; o! svl;lch was veilhug to kits; s :•he dd• r d-,' ns and France; lon Ithethee it v n.- I t..`ted or lie did not Lime. ite - a t rn t h e Noble Lord, that there sets airy •n on the part of his Maje•ty's (;C:lt ;:!1i;!;t tg; far tf ;;•• eett.;il,iy t.•,•••Isl • t hare'. he 'Cti rn lri!ildray: 10 it the c‘n,•:!:y :;,) en ..1;h the war, he did 11 ;t fa. trier ,:id::!y•nirs to bti:.g I • alynit. peace Cf:tl.- p.1!,11C rico I. ‘n• e- rent rue wir hum vr, hit 2 artUred the Noble I.rnd had dv. ; .!I (r. die rtll/• j.a bug mi g ht a n d e'ree• tive. if lie underdond that the wed! i• inn cf Itad'a was to be acceded to, he law no oLjsCit.in to the ite• r,otiation heitig carried on, even thr..ted,h the channel of the Rudian Mit - niter at l'ai wa' fire that . f the late negotiation had been cart d eat in the fame way, it would not have ended to; it did. If the N.;ble Lord would, therefore, ailine him blast a difpofition ; to accede to fuch an offer, and carry it fpeedily into area, exitled on the part of his Majetly's Minillers, he would withdraw his Motion. It might he afked, Why had he not that confidence in the Executive Government as to thi;:k they would do what he re- commended, if they thought it neceffir y ? His anrwer was, that his pi epodtion did not atitc from any fuch • want of confidence, but ft ern an idea, that a confi- derable time might elapfe hefi.re any effeCual tlep was taken, and in the mean time the country might fttf- ler mate, laity. Lord HAWKESIIVRY raid, that as to any proporal which. might have been made Icy the Court of Pe- te! (burgh, the vet y way in which it came, and even tie nature of it, mull necetearily be fuels as to render it impoffible for his Ivlajelly's Government to ad upon it. The Hoare mull recolled the didance between Peter (burgh and London, and conferptently the length of time it would take a pet fen to travel from one place to another, fn that when a Meleager left Peet fbiirgh, very little cr.td.l have been known there of the date of things palling iv this country. The propolition that came from the Court of Peterffiurgh was made with a reference to the dircuffions going on between England and France, and the reitiElance which appeared in the two Governments to bring them to a fpcedy conclufion. The prnpolition was, that the two Mittiflers of his Imperial Majelly ()Inuid give every affiftance in their power to the negociating parties ; and that the Emperor would give his gond offices in concluding and eftablifhing any at Pang,. ment which might be thought necefeary. Under all the circumtlances of the cafe, confidering that the intervention came in a look and general way, and at a time when every thing been fully and fairly laid be- fore the French Government. and perhaps, at the v e ry time when the Enitilh Ambaffaclor was leaving Paris, his Majefly's Miniflers , con fi dering all the y things, did not think that a propolal fo general and undefined was one which could at that time be sifted upon. But it was not to be concluded from this that they ohjefted to linen to any propofition coming from Ruffle in the Ibape of medi dint'. He could affure the Houfe and the Hon. Gentleman oppofite to him, that they would at any time be ready, either to re- ceive from the Court of Peterlburgh its ideas, as to the grounds on which an adjuftment might be entered into between Great Britain and France, or to (late to the Court of Peterlbutgh the grounds on which the Britifh Government would agree to fuch an adjult- enent. His Majelty's Mininers would not avoid en- tering into a bermes of this kind from any want of etiquette or forms, but would be ready, even through the channel of the Ruffian Mininer at Paris, to Hate the views of the Britifh Government. But until Game proporal was made, upon which they could aft with propriety, they did not think it would be confillent with their duty, to advife his Majefly to withhold an of his exertions in the profecution of the content which was already begun. Mr. Fox then role and raid, that as the noble Lord had declared it to be the intention of his Majeny's Government to content to any mediation which *ght be propoled by the Emperor of Ruffia bet Britain and France, he was ready to wit! his motion.—The motion was accordingly wi. drawn. Every bench was immediately deferted. The Mem- bers crowded from all parts of the Houfe round the table, and all limed to feel the importance of having gained the rapport of the authority of this great cha- racier. Several Members offered themfelves to the at- tention of the Houfe, but no one could be liflened to. After the agitation had rublided, the Route pro- ceeded with the Orders of the Day. The Wade 'slaked hid( Into a Committee an the Pinkie Com- pletion BBL A Chnfe to exclude Seamen from bdng enrolled In the Militia. was brought up, read and greed to. Another Chafe, impofin g a flight fine, or enamelling the inaptifonment, in cafe of nan-pgiy- • mem of the fine, of fuch patios as, having a tight to be excluded from ferving in the Militia. &all not appeal within the snouted time, was ordered to form a part of the Bill. And, another new Chute was agreed to, for the removal of certain dillcultles with ref peel to qualification, in the appointment of Deputy-Lieutenants in mntiand. The Houk rrfunsed—The Report was then agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time on Wednefday next. Sir W. I.r moo obtained leave of ahience for three weeks, 00 account of the death of a nor relation. Mr. Maar obtained leave of abfence fine a month, be basing frroe , l on the Iliihrip's Cattle Sel.-dt Committee. The Order of the Day Iv the Hook ref..tt tn g into a Committee on the Ship Dean:aim Bill being pal, Mr. Corry moved," dim s the Order he pollponed to Thurklay nett." at he had an ides of fame mamdtnents to the confideration of the Houle refpeding Ireland. which be might form more comodUy by that time—Ordered. The evftontt Confoidation Bill was read a firft time, and saw- ed to be read a fecund time on Wedasklay next. 'he CIIIANCIMLOIL of the It:ciao ea gave melee that Imeraill on Wed:l.4day amt. move tw the Hook going into a Combeittay to confider of the Menu Affdfed Tem. The Convoy IYY was read a fecosd dam, sind mewedesol fit Wedndday. The Eaa India shipping Dia woe reports& aed wawa sad a third dm em Wedmitleg som.--Aopiresi. -