The National Register. — London, England, 1809-05-07 00:00:00

AY 7. 95 MA befor the inch v w hat us to aqswl Cast! they caller the I ma ti( w hat on. How w hie to be odee far w to, t' chart el MU iv hi c 1 I 6 THE NATIONAL REGISTER. bre the House. There are certain principles which most 'e our conduct on all occasions, because they arise out of nature of things; and one of these principles ia, that no vidual should be called on to defend himself before he k told tt the accusation is against him. But this motion calls upon o presume (for without presumption we cannot call for an Tr) that the Right lion. Spencer Perceval and Lord Viscount Jereagh have been guilty—of what ?—We are to assume that r have been guilty of something for which they are w be (ed to our bar as delinquents. IS pon what authority ? House give me leave to ask the lion. Member, not what info.-- ion he has, for of that we know nothing at present. but A information be has given to the House respecting the Right I. S. Perceval or the Viscount Castlereagh, upon which the use ought to call upon these Members for an answer, or upon ich to hear Counsel at the bar? I have always understood it le a rule which has al ways guided every house ofjustice, and .ed every tribunal pretending to be a court of justice; and as s my experience has gone ' the rule has always been adhered hat the accused should he told by the accuser what the , •ge is, before he shall be called upon to answer; :mad indeed lust be obvious to the House that this is a principle without cat there can he nothing like justice. But if it be right that every individual is to withdraw, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has withdrawn, upon a mere loose charge with out any specification, the Hon. Member may charge us all, mid so have the whole house to himself. At all events, it requires a little more time than he has been pleased to give to the ;douse, before it can assent to any such motion as this. I am confident it will turn out upon inquiry, that a long examina. tion into the facts preceded the Resolutions to which the Hon. Member has referred • and that inquiry, I believe, was carried an in a Committee of ? Privilege long before the House came to the Resolutions which we have heard read at the table to-day. Thus, I am greatly deceived, if it will not ultimately appear t hat the precedent to which the Hon. Member has referred, will not bear hint out in the motion now before the House ; and it would be indeed a monstrous thing if persons were put upon their trial, without knowing what was the accusation. Mr. Bathurst for his part must require something tan gi4le—some statement that would enable him to determine whe ther the charge was fit to be entertained, and what were the grounds of suspicion. With respect to the precedent read, it did not stand upon the loose groundt that the motion of the Hon. Member did. It was not because one Member should say that another did so and so, that that other Member should be called upon to negative it. Where the charge was direct, the course of proceeding was plain. Instead of seconding the motion, the Right lion, Member could only do as he had done; and they were hound to support him against a most unfair mode of eudea vouring to implicite the House. Mr. Biddulph. The surprise which Gentlemen have expressed at the motion of my Honourable Friend, is not greater than mine at the manner in which they thought fit to resist it. On my coming towards this House to-day, I had a short consulta tion with other Members on the subject matter of this motion. I was asked if I thought any body would second it. I answer ed, I had no doubt it would he seconded, and that from the oppo site side of the House; for it appeared to me to be the duty of same of the Ministers tosecond this motion, in order to clear their own characters. Sir, different feeling 4 have been enter tained by different individuals on this occasion. For my own part I cannot conceive it possible that, after what has passed in this House, Ministers can be content to retain their situations, if they cannot answer charges of this kind with a direct nega tive; for it has been, several times,, more than hinted, that they are, some of them, personally concerned in direct acts of cor ruption, and that for a purpose no less culpable than that of procuring seats for certain Members of this House, On a former occasion, an allusion was made of certain corrupt practices of this kind, and that allt,sion was treated as matter unworthy of attention. But after w hat has been proved, that species of lofty affectation of scorn will not do, for the feeling of the House is greatly altered on these matters of late ; and I do say that the feelingq of Ministers must be greatly altered indeed from what they formerly professed them to be, if they can hear these accusations made against themselves, and he satisfied with their own silenee. The attention of the House seems, at present, to be a good deal directed to the manner and form of things which are laid before it—l desire the House to regard a little thc sub - stanceof the thing. Why thew, Sir, what is the substance of this matter? Nothing less than that two of his Majesty's Mini sters—Cabinet Ministers, have been, by name, accused of cor ruption to procure the return of a Member to sit in this House ! Sir, I shall gladly second the motion, in order that the subject may he put into a train of investigation. Mr. Maddock, begged leave to observe, that if he had acted in a manner that was personally disagreeable to the two Members hom he had named, and w hum he had charged with corrupt practices, in endeavouring. to procure a return of Mem bers oi ?arliament, and if he was irregular in what he had done, he was ready to make them an apology. It arose from. inexperience, but nut from the most remote deAre, on his part, to carry on the proceeding in any degree that was personally of fensive to any body ; he had acted with all the regularity which he understood to he requisite: Ile had no idea whatever of making charges which he did not believe could be substantiated. As to the corrupt acts to w l he alluded, he was ready to pro ceed upon the inquiry into them, in any manlier which should seem to the House expedient. The Speaker. it becomes imperative upon me to interrupt the Honourable Member; upon which, with the leave of the House, I will say a word or two. If it he meant that a Member he heard in his own defence, and that he is then to withdraw, he is to be heard on that which he is to answer. The It ight Honourable Gentleman whose name stands first in this motion has already withdrawn ; and this subject cannot, with pro priety be discussed now ; for I take it to be a fundamental rule, that against an absent Member no charge whatever can be heard in this House, unless he shall have been heard in his own de fence. As to the notice to which the Hon. Member has alluded, he will allow me to tell him that a notice of motion to inculpate Ministers generally, or of a resolution against Ministers gene rally, 'does not require them generally to withdraw upon the discussion ; but they may remain and take part in the discus sion, and therefore a notice of a motion against his Majesty's Ministers generally, is not to he deemed notice against any one of them in particular. But in no case is any thing offered to the House until after the Member accused shall have been heard in his own defence in his place in that House. After that the House hears in detail the matter a►gain, after the Member accused shall have withdrawn, and the Honourable Member, who is accuser, must confine himself to the charge which he has selected, and to which the defence is made. Now, let us see how the matter stands here, according to precedent. —The precedent quoted from the Journal states certain charges of corrupt practices against a Member namel, and of tl►e resolu tion hal ►hereon afterwards. I heed not remind the House that the Journals never speak of more than the charge and the decision; and therefore they never give any information of the reason on which the resolution is founded; therefore the Jour nals give us only in technical language,.the charge and the deci slut], and that in three or four lines. It is therefore obvious, in the nature of things, that the principle upon which the House has'acted on that MSC, as well as upon every other case, was that of considering the reasons which had been urged on either side, nil finally deciding upon them, according -to the sense of the house expressed by its majority. lint on this part of the history of the case, the .lour•nal is silent, as all Journals are. If it should be the sense of the House that tl►' liuno►irable Member is not at liberty to proceed now, as I. think clea►rly he is not, it. will be for the House to pronounce on the Resolution now in my hand; without reference to any thing that may here after be to be proposed. The question now only is, w hether or not this be a resolution which the House will come to." Mr. Canning thought it necessary that the Howe should come to a derided opinion on the motion, without suffering it to he withdrawn. Understanding the motives of the Honourable Nlember to be such as he stated them, yet it was obvious that he had been misled. lie therefore thought it incumbent on the House to put a decided negative on the question, as otherwise it would form a dangerous precedent. Mr, Whitbread did not see how any mere entrance on the Journals of 4h e motion itself, and of its being negatived, could prevent any Member from falling into the same mistake, it', in deed it was one. He did not see ho w such a result could follow from such an entrance on the Journals. The usual courtesy of the House had made it a general rule, that notice of a charge should he given to the Menther who was the subject of it, but he believed, that, in critical emergencies, the !louse had frequently dispensed with this species of courtesy. Allusions were made to the proceedings adults and societies, as calculated to inflame the public mind. Who, he would ask, had excited the public mind ? (Hear! hear!) or rather what was it, but the investigation tit had lately taken place in that House ? And when accusatioa brought a;aiust Sliuisters, what was it chat could' wore tea