The National Register. — London, England, 1817-05-12 00:00:00

146 .:.,~ TRIDAV, run. 0. STILTS PIIMINERS. feu.. lie tt ;Le tionse to patete, we'l t e c n c ier the bid. Ail. Id. rti Ahi I.tsted that the ILO wdu'dl roe.eA upon a Woi l iteeits ti artedifestts-hatiwettrtite end his .• the: *tow. would Ire thkell io'cousoh the interests Wt.; et t•.-et • the tights of the Church. r. lko ttaid, that this Ineatturt was calculated to ; make • untsiderablv provittion fur the impleyment and relief of the eons.. the ilut.tte At went into a Committee on the Ts the Leas ing Bill, in Klticlt after a long coil% emit ion 01) the duration of the null, it watt litititt di to lu years. On the motion et Sir W. Scorn, the Committee was post• potted till Weilliestla ne t. Mr. I). °mogur urotiglit up a DPI to abolish certain Of fices, and to rt Kulatc *ahem iu St•otlisod. th detect to he read a second Wile uu TiaeNday next .—Atijoatibt 4.L --- - - - Mr. GORHONI, seeing the 1..73J...r Secretary of State in his place. begged leave to iugnire whether any com iiiiiii irations l.ad been received at his °thee from the Magistrates at Head ing, respi•eting the treatment of the state prisoners in the gaol subject to their lust ertioo. Mr. 11. AnnuNwroN replied, that lie was not aware of the tire 1111 l sti.nec alluded to by the lion. Gentleman, but it he thought prover to move for papers, nu objection would be atade to their nr,3lection. PI.II:IuNS AGAINST TUC CATHOLIC CLAIMS. Sir W. Score i.rest tiled a Petition from the Chancellor, s, awl Sriaol.tis of the U.ticc.rsity of Oxford, ag..iii•l any repeal of the laaa affecting the Roman Catholics.—Laid un the table. FINANCE. The Cita SCELLOR of the EICH/QUER, in answer ton goes tiou from .%r 1. P. Grant, moved for an account of the pro. dime of the reverine for the respective (planers of the year eudiog hut sth of Cdr. 1515. CA I HOL IC QUESTION. Giusyraa, pc. SillltS t 44 Sill • 1111111( his motion to the House MI rile subject of tl v Cath Cilia's, mov. d, " That the Petilio nomad Calle lies of Ire,and, presented on the itatli of April, Isl 6, be lead.' —Ordered. his . W. e st.IOTT moven, •• •I hat the of the Roman Cali, lies of L'autiand, pi eseitied on the 26th of May, 1816, be read ;" whirls was also done. Mr. GRATTAN then rose. and said--" Having been up plied to In use Roman Catholics of Ireland to hi iug their case untkr the conside•ation °filly House, l shall now proceed to daelraige tit duty I have undertaken. But, Sir, it is out my int••ntiva at present to go tow this important question. 1 shall cairns , the indulgence of the House to hear ni.. se sti inanta by way of r ply. The Resolution I i. tend to move is fora Col ttttt iti• e w take the laws eting the Ito. num Cathol,cs into consideration. It is the same motion wh.en OAS e allied in Ibl I have read the Report which to) Leanne -1 atoll most useful Friend (sir J. C. Hip,..s., y„ his e•ented to the Hume, whichltas(La:lysheW a tun, Molt, in a.t Lie great countries of Eutope, th,ie are a civi. anti .o.w. a: y toleration., itirolporatien, and qualification, for ail rent:ions sects—that there i . w nearly every state of F0v0p , ... a 4 ertaili roiniection Uri *seen the Clergy and the triov.,lllllll4lll, so as to pi eciude the danger of foreign Milts rime uii I that England is almost 'he ouly country where such ill arlallehlt ml has not yet DCVO made. I beg leave to 11.4, that the present qa .sumo is not aimasit the means by melt brownies nay •e eflected. I will Sot debate ilia vim. The question is, wile her any SeCI cities what .s. r mil be reccivid? et tell you why. There is a can smaiecati on be %CPU the Pepe and the Calhoun. Clergy— * li eh most coda i her in invorporat ion is. h t Ir See of Ito or, G I ea,aro ,an wi.b the G••v eminent nt Eugl“nd—and. if the latter be. rein-ed, it wall d.41 , 17.Wr4. 41 S to the safety of Eng land. You w.II have the Callum'. Clergy inet.rp..raied ui.h the See of Rome—and the CAM. ir laity disrotrotalvd trout the people of Engiand. , hra.ll I shoal go into a Committee to move lii • repeal of the taus th a t di aqu arni, n u . Catholics from civil, militai v, and naval power, suoject to Shith at ratigement as may be judged necessary for the satel of .h.‘ Protestant religion. the \et put Settlement, and t (- Government of • rest Itritain--that s to fi.”, subject w sue. provisi tttt s as you wilt feet necessary for the security of you. Church and State.—That, if you choose to adopt the Reim bloods, you may slew to the world, that you nave ceased to be the only great manna in Europ that withheld those rights —lint that you are ready to give franchises —that yro Willing to gram a participation in the benefits oh you. Cons.. rtition----to your Catholic jects, this will nequi you with ri gar-1 to your having a jots, id. a of the artimitii• of lioerty Mist the securities yon receive, will efiectualiy protect your civil and it ligious priviaages. 1 shall nu* laove— .. That this House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to takc into its most serious consideration the state of the Laws afflcting his Majesty's Roman Catholic Subjects in Great Bri tain an d Ireland—with a view to such a final and conciliatory adjust ment of t..ern, as will be conducive to the p...ace, strength, and secu rity of tae Unitwi Kinghom. the stability of th e Pnaestant Establish man, and the general satisfaction and concord of all classes of his Mkesty'sSub j ects." • . I 'I ming seconded by Mr. W. Fa.fiterr, 11 , L. Fosr..it said, tpiestein now appra, ea to be nib at Ise t t • . e Alan oi the House. under circumstances id.tferent I any that k marked its introduction at former peri ,ds— hot, in 6,1.1, no (litho enee existed. In the last Ses sion, two Petit ttttt s were pr.sented from c ut b o di es et Irish Romeo Catholics. The first was from u very few persons —not more than one hundred--c .vied with the lay arist••• eracy. and prole4sing to seek for their emancipation. on any tei los the House .night dorm proper, consistent with their religious tenets. 'fhe other Petition, and the tar more nume rously signed one , including all the Catholics, collected at Aggreg ate and otter eetings, for unqualified emancipation. Thet Petition branded the other as a mischievous d ocumen t, and hurled an anathema against those who supported it, as vitroe than orangeinen. The House, however, now heard not!iing from the first and more moderate party—they were entirely mien t on this occasion. It WWI notorious that the Veto which occasioned all this ferment last year. was not o matter ,t• dINCIVISiOII ill that House, because it was a basis on which tse Catholics would not treat with the Legislature. Now. he asked, whether Oen bonen did not know, that the utmost extent to which the persons %lit) had signed that Petition were willing to gum, was confined to domestic noinination-- that the Yefo they Would not giant Had they not itilorolcd the Right 800. Gent. himself, distinctly. that they nautili rather con tinue in their preset,: state, thou owe their emancipation to is ec neession of the Veto? lie should now endeavour to sliew IC the House the absolote deinsion which a professor of don't s. hoia Il iun , 1r .4 t calculated to produce amongst Pi otestants. Ve iota asel the word, he lucent nothing disrespcettul to We .dAL— THE NATIONAL. REGISTER. lit 1141.1.6 til.--bitt lie introduce.' the term, as inseparably i Eponym ed wills the measure whlrli the Might HOD. Geist. hail the fortune to propose. llaineolle nominal Mu was not a new principle. The Catholics really ode red what had hero long kites% n. It was necessary, to 'stove this, that the 114.115. should know the manner in which the netnisieti tttt of i•li Bishops look piece. They nook! then be enabled to judg. whether d tstic nomination witA may a lie. ation ef the old system. The case was precisely this : They hail, in times past, given up eet tails laws complained of by the Cat holies— and Stow, in consideration of their giving op every thing. from beginning to end, they were to receive nothing iu ref 11. evrept lists concessiun t if he might use a word, u Welt implied a contradiction in terin•), that matters should stand evietly as they were in times present. If this were the tact, vas lint the theory delusive? After a long and animated speech, the lion. Gentleman concluded by saying, he thought he had shewn that domestic nomination would answer no purpose—that the V,to would safiet no &Met.— The Protestants thought either or bed, of these conditions illusory, ridieulous and nonsensical. The Catholics thought them persecuting. penal, and subversive of their religioa—so that here were conditions die:Utast by both parties.—fAear !) Then on what principle were the securities to be founded that would give satisfaction to the Pro testants of England, Ireland, and the Catholics of both? Let the Hight lion. Gentleman bring forward some distinct mope...l6ot'. and then the Ilouse oaukl six on what terms they were about to legislate. --(lfeur!) Alf. Your,: would not enter at large into the detail of his senti ments, but would reduce the subject. on the present occasion, to a narrow amps. The Catholic Question had now arrived at a crisis, and the blouse was bound to decide upon it one way or another.— ( Um, hear!) They were now called upon cri Jurors to pronounce a verdict, and as a Juror he was ready to give one ; but it was a special one, and possibly of a description which would phase nobody. Hav ing dwelt on Tarim/ topics at considerable length, he mulcted on the many anomalies that existed in the present system. such as the ad missibility of Irish Catholics to offices from which English Catholics were excluded. and the total exemption of Scotch Catholi.!s tram any disabilities whetever.—..()/ear,) 'Chest' points, he thought, required investiinstion, and a Coinnilisee alone could adjust them. Sir 11. PAR/4,11.1. said. that the Hon. Miinbzr. (Mr. Foster), had appeared nuiterLdly mistakan in the mode of nominating Bishop: in Ireland. 1k had said that every Bishop appointed a coadjutor. who was uniformly appointed to succeed his patroo. No such practice, however, prevailed in Ireland. fur a coadjutor wa: never appointed but when the Bishop laboured under infirmities which incapacitated him from fulfilling his duties. There were only three coadjutors at present in Ireland, which alone would prove tile inaccuracy of the lion. Gendemats's statement. It would. however, lie a material point to ascertain the actual practice of nominating Bishops. It was this; when a vacancy minted, the Bishops of the Province AISSeM. bled and chose three persons, whose names they transmitted to the Pope, who, as a matter of course, though not as a matter of right, uniformly instituted the person whose name was first on the list. The Pope has a perfect right to refuse any of those moms!, and may even appoint a forei h mer; but if the Pope refuse to consecrate the person appointed by the Irish Clergy, the person so refined institu tion becomes to every purpose except one, thatof giving orders, an efficieot Bishop. It was. however, sow suggested a that the Pope should hied himself to the Government not to institute any other person than him norm • ted by the Irish Clergy, and thus domestic nomimiticn would af ford a perfect security to the Prote-cant establishment. This circum stance likewise gave a new feature to the principle, and took aw.-y that ground of objection urged by the lion. Nlesnber ( N lr. Foster) that it contained nothing new. The Clergy were willing to gram further security of a personal nature that could be desired. They would bind themselves by oath not to elect any person but such as was known to be a peaceable and loyal subject, and would engage to preserve the established religion of the country. The oath pro posed by the Bishops to be inserted in the body of any Bill that win be brought in, would be to this effect : "i, A B. swear that I will not select any person who I do not. in my conscience, believe to be a loyal and faithful subject of his Ma • jest'', and of a good and peaceable demeanour; and that I will not attempt, either by , open force or secret fraud, to subvert the Consti tution as established is Church and State. or to alter the state of pro perty as by law now regulated ; and if I shall he apprised of any other persons having such intentions, I shall, without delay, give in formation respecting it-" . _ He hoped the House would not lose that opportunity a submitting the entire matter to the Committee. Mr. WEBIIF.a. The pres-nt question was one of the utmost im portance to tlis country; but, as it regarded Ireland. it involved the subver-ion of the Church, and, still more the stability of the English connection.—(lfive, 11 , 111 !).-.lt was unneces:ary to enter into the comparative merits of the Veto and domestic nomination. The form a., as it implied the nterference of a foreign Power, would ain traeene the existing laws for repressing the Papal power; and the latter was still wore for it erected an independent corporate esta blishment, unconnected with the legislature, and in•lependent of the Government of the country. The Hon nle n n cimcludel r lone nn !limbic - in speech by %arm: the if th b o • demanded to s n e a to , he was satisfied th t it world 'lot only c cue a Catholic asce-de.iey in Ite;and, but sha e the Protestant sac ndency i•i Eng! Ind to :ts VC,* basis (if 0-) Mr W Et.t. o in a long vecch pressed an anti .us with that the House wood eon e t to go 11310 the Comm nee. Mr. B 4 Inuits considered the Object mop Ned inconsistent wi h the sat ty ot the moue, a. , introducing the autlioril of a toreito nation into the man itement of th • Church, And (yelling to those ac snottier temporal and spiritual head the most important uffizes of the State. Lord Caset a. AOll said, he should trouble the /louse 113 short a time as possible upon a question on wht h n e asset wients that had not been hea d hefore • uld be used. There was no declatatioei m whech he coincide d more heartily th n that of an II nourable Friend, that notheng soul' be more im ports t to Parliament than its eleavrranee from su-h a repetition, and if the qnestion could • r released from its rnstual age seion with safers to the tee, th et measuer should be embraced which appeared most likely to cause a . desirable an event. •I he House shoaid lore. to the degree of countenance given by Statearn •n at former pereods to the Claims of he Homan Crho icy, and ob wive the taint( advance merle in their favour by Statesmen later days. They should c •nsieler whas hNh Heaney of Paths ment had done, and whether the pr..ot of confidence en lo airy of the Cat oleos, mateiter ed by them, was not a secuet • thy no danger could re,u.t from coerces. on. If the see of Rome hail the pone rr it formerly possessed, of couvu lying the European Powers, and was capable of making an inresad upe.n the security of the sure *ending Sates there might t,e some principle on which objections could be raised, but they ion longer teeter feted by the poeicy. The questim; of "engem was wholly aban• Boned In tie late yolitical art n :emcees t the period of the testy at .0 estphalia. the rine loom religi est was a lee - pin„ frs lure in the settiernetet, but at the of Vienna, he declared to the "crse, not one , word was U. 1.40) about it—iCriee hear, h nr, h nr)— he Stuns I I unite had areed in he Vtiociple; and in the Gernyune Co vitutton, su vtta.ly was the mea s ure of toleration interwoven, that the se%eral 'States that country achncwledged a p .rfcct quality. then, the principle w so :tete 1 upon in Germany, why shou d there be any he.itation w.th terpcei t 9 Ireland. ' this ite d d not irennon a , the basis it. pu icy, but to Convince 01- 'louse, that supported as it was by public oploion, the mua effectual also for lain vigour to the MAY 12. Stile was the adoption u 4 this p Levi The Noble Lord, in speaking of the lower Claws of the peoile, stated. that the P. pe could tie believed, do ii.dh•n 6 mire p palm in Spain ahatigive to is tamale the I nrprisittiiii. t he obsett thoug•lt at one peri o d, that the e could be a 1 , 111 l'Acillatral of the Catholic religion , and the rioter of the Pope could exiiic;ulshed ; but all that WAllt of charity that eza•ted :o such eaten:, %%IS Sit additional roof of the ncetc.ity of t• e nit sum It was n••t t.") plr.ise the roman Catholic, but to put the Stile upuu a firm tiittittlai.ott.th.it he wonlil Wilts th • acquiescence of l'hidantene conlidcnt as lie was, that 'he e could toe no solid than/tattoo for Ise .," ana l se,•ori yin Ireland wi th:int a proceeMn; that would place the C Mei udon foams' with tio•o.• of the K•tatilis'.e.l seogten. He did not think that a few Roman Cath.l.o. is that I louse, and a few in the II attic of Peers, could c env any danger to the Censtitnti in by which all Were protested ; on •he contrary he Wet , Cl.tlViaeCtl, that an far from exciting a sin, it to be apprehended, they would do all a.i then power towart!s con• edition. It was the inisfoittine ut Ir.-land to It.ve :a great mss: oi people whom it was impossible to lead. Those who wet , : qu hied to lead mem were &frail to air aid the a ,tempt, bur if th •re was a common participation of ryhts and priv leers, the difh utry would no looter be to be encountered. tits him con. tics - oil was, that nothing effectual could be done towards tran quillicaa: behind until a hey hail the Catholic. a n Lats. th , tm - until they were with them side by side to fi:ht the battle of the Constitution. as they had al eady fought the battle of the country an the field (/‘ ar he ii) -Ile fel' it his bounden duty on this, as on the homer ot.casion, to make his earnest anal sulanu appeal in th ir favour. Until some ni• a awe of the kind was adtipt••d, they c old never hope to repose in o stand berme the ry sof Eu•ope in the high and distinguished character to which they were entitled. Mr. Palm ewe. --s.ed great reluctance an presuming to differ from his Noble friend who had preced.d him. He WAS SLI/• prieedl to find. that, up to the ;maxi of the debate, tin one had stated the course that was to be pursued .n the Committee. Theywere cail• d upon tocont • to a final and satisfactory arrange. .nt ; but what hope had they that the obi •c• to which they were invited was practicable -tin the .6th uf May, 1812, they were caned upon to piedge thent-ely s to consul . r the subject Now, en the Uth of May, they were asked to *c c to a motion rim par to that which hail been male in is - 3. and which had produced fnotllll, that, so tar trout a ranting in volved the question in great einbairassinents. The measure then proposed watt to gisc the Catholics certain privi ages, but required at the same time an assurance, that the episcopal functions shuald be filled by persons of a peaceable iomaviour ' and pr• , vided that the appointments should be submi ied to abort of investigation. Ills \ o'ile Friend hat declared that those securi ties would still b • lICCCiSilfy• He would ask his Noble Friend, whether he thought a possible t hat any Ines ore, grou•ided on the principle of such securities, could be satisfactory t i that class in I eland whom he intended its benefit? Hie %Glair Friend Cl to tl sus it w ; bait he would beg leave to oppose to his au. thorny dui of to: Roman Catholic Prelates themselves Thep iad declared d stinctly that they coed not submii to art s , , a War Km iti he pies. tit mode ol appoint ng :relates. without incurring the guilt of schism Wth respect to the esamination of dueuments„ he would r cr r • 11. use to one ihe auihority of which his No. bit: F. tend a a i el,Dr Poynter had stated, that it could not eve. be made the b14,j,:a111 iscuesion. if t e Ca.hanis.s were soh:. IC. if they possessed the feelings and pas.lon. of o het men, they must nisi) to see their teligion the Listalolished ielig on of the cou •try. Oa the whole, he sin cerely hoped that the House would weigh tre practical ad. vantages of the Goseriim, nt, as it stood. it :ain't the vistonaiy theoret,e I benefits expected from that which was to tic.•-• a .) Mr. Ca • mist' sAd, he felt it the more necessary to say semis. thine. ail r t e speech ot consunirn t- shinty which they had just hens I nom his ft.g . -t on. Fete d The moult, h wetter, o • his statement, amo • ted to no more than this, *ha by the question he Ilius • was i laced in a sta c of infinite d ffi.ul y ,h—lt was (rile ilia they could take no step, , i her for ward ot backwarl, that would b perte tly sand ttu.y. tic ed that, even if me .su e was int reduced •.lid adopted, there mould still rrmainsese, lat 'moths in *h. Iw. But the qu whin 14 as, whether, by gout . far .hey ecull remove any of .he exist eg incos returnees without dsng r to toe titans h ment ? If tie .hough( that the sl.g .test htzard of that nature could ics' It, he world agree that the ought to pause r h re Wet now were. rat esthan tisk •ut.h a (14in cm; out (wing in its concience co v nerd, t at die, nigh go wa h sate.y to thr Pra te: t of the m:asure now proposed, he did not h shale t that they •ilight to go further. Ile was not :fete 101 hy the Gin teni;,liattm ot any unceetainty in the result hum voting lot this omm t•ee —(Hoer, h ar, racezif wok cri s f•• ' fur I o ! M- 'l•HaTl'Ast then rose'') reply—" 'ir, wi h respect to the difficulty that is su,iposel to awe from eimig • lepared into the C •mmit Cc, I shall only t. s IV . can c 471111411 d your owls securities—you ea" command she secw ny of asce tic uominat on. I positively deny slim shy UMW ot he Catholics us such at to prevent them from submi; ins. What is for the god of the Catho..c, is for the go d idf the whole It is sour duty so say • the counts, and not to accommodice a. y la, icu I-r set of men. An Hon. Genii m•n, who, s segre , wa. slot more attei tied to, obit iv, it course of tits ',inch, that this was a Pro es AM Col/S. U'loll.—..e may b.p ise he Cons,i,u , run if he wid, hut wig , ales ii was I. a h lic—that is, it was founded by La•holin.— %In 'lie gre t laws to who h th people ewe it cis Ihe i w re , he wink of Catho,es. Ai she shoe of the It volutma our ancesa.rs cossten , ed th• ms•ives wsih making a I) el si a. son of Itigoi, b-edose they c tsiul nut go he tiler than e ( - a holies had gssis••. Tie Bill sit BLit's was& I) claratory I as ; it was declaratory of the pr.* urges ohtaiord by our Ca tholic ancestors. If we look 111 MC CAI /Ilk . religion, as COM sleeted with the Pope, it Is II at once tar conceded, that that cis eunistance will nun jastiry the oh. 41...nee of a silkier' to a foreign pow• [—and ther,•tore, the Vt a it., devised so meet that evil, and so previous it• Ile t I .n, she dasi 4 et coases. Actin, he proffer you domestic n ..... inahon. Both the V. re and dottiest ic ilatot oat 101 l are laid at Boor feci—sn that the sorgti mein founded on she necessity of checking fuireign Inds mime is put an end to. For, if you have taut t:.at check now, It is • own fault—and t - nti reject an ample security for your establishment in t hureli rind S ate, in order to continue roar 'monopoly of pow.r. 'I h.. r hare - of moist atrocity in the rarholic ri•tigion has been corn d le ely met, by he un aissw table de larat nut oft he Cashol e Pre'a•es, who sat that n..t the d •erritic of she Catholic r I gloss. to sup! ott or obey any t.te'gn temporal putter, a it sits, s• It you skis, to Lori ak th wth h r•ti •a• snit a pan of their s reed In 1701, they s-at 11, that it was ucc wars or 111 , a cur ty f h country t g•ve them a share of polissoal pow, F. "ha. l'all ass. tar rave '.li mhe !mail g• of h.. ding ;art, ed pro, CI and put arms in be r hands. ntl. mis arritued, that si WAS con , rary so the les of the Cnie.tillltii.ll so lei Roman C os ess an, civil or Military N.w wII read a i extract from h • Act pa4,:d in 1791, wh rh r bus th s assertion. he Sta tute says, ' lie it enacted that n sha I a id may be lawriul for l'ap4ta, or persons professing di:. Popish, tor autitall Gs ik01.4 II